The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-07 00:00:00

LONDON,

clause was that its chief merit consisted in the fact that
they did not m lee a ready cu:- .tucl-:!ry form for tie
colunies, but let them enact the precise clauses neces-
sary for their own goverement. Inileed,the proposition
appeared to him to embedy such a simple net of common
justice that he thought it could be only met by some legal
difficulty. lie did not think, howeeer, that the legal
objections taken by the Hon. and Lear. e I Member for
Youghal were t.mable. All that was asked was to give
the Church of England the same powers which other bodies
possessed, and he called upon the members of every
religious persuasion to assist them in obtaining that
power. He would ask the Government what was the
nature of the great danger which threatened the social
state of Europe at the present moment, and from which
this country was happfly so free ?—(Rear.) Was it not
the entire indifference which the people manifested with
respect to all religion, rather than an intolerance in the
exercise of any sect ? It was the danger of infidelity
which they hal to stem at the present moment, and that
could not be done efficaciously without giving free ex-
ercise for the dissemination of religious instruction and
education. The great danger of the age was to be
found in that .ignorance which led to infidelity, and
which incapacitated men from seeing their real and best
interests either in this world or in the world to come. He
regretted to find that the tendency of all modern govern-
ments was to thwart aoy measure calculated to render
the Church more useful and effective. That tendency
was evinced in a variety of ways. He could perceive it
in the choice made of clergymen to fill the office of pre-
lates, for it was well known that it was not the most eb-
coent and able men, but the mast quiet men that were
selected fur that office. He asked for no exclusive pri-
vileges for the Church, and he had no apprehension of
her losing her vitality. But he confessed he had serious
fears for that state which would not earnestly 'and sin-
cerely endeavour to promote every measure that had for
its plain and straightforward object the development of
religious truth and the preparation of the people for
those blessings which would ensure their temporal and
eternal happiness.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that under the appearance of a
somewhat mysterious proposition, this was really an im-
portant one. They had to deal with what the propo-
sition called " the United Church of England and Ire-
land in the colonies." Everybody understood what was
meant by the United Church of England and Ireland. It
was subject to certain laws in this country, and to
certain great privileges. But there was a party in this
country that wanted to deal with that Church in a way
which the people of this country would not permit.—
(Hear.) What didlthey want? To have the Church
above the law—to have convofa'tiowsitting by the side of
Parliament. "We have put dovin, that, Sir (said the
Hon. Member), and we do not intend that it shall ever
be revived."—(dear, hear.) That by a sidewind in the
colonies was attempted. But they were not to be mys-
tided out of their common sense; and no man dare at
the present time propose, at least no man with com-
mon sense could expect, that such a proposition
would be attended to, as that convocation should be
sitting by the wide of the English Parliament.—

(Heei, hear.) But there were persons so infatuated
with notions connected with the Church, that they
wanted to create that thing—(Hear, hear)—to de-
clare, as to the United Church of England and Ireland,
" That it shall be lassfull fir the bishop or bishops of
any diocese or dioceses in the said colonies, or in any
colony which her Majesty shall, by order in Council, de-
clare to be joined to them for the purposes next herein-
after described, and the clergy and lay persons, being
declared members of the Chuch of England, or being
otherwise in communion with him or them respectively,
to meet together from time to time, and, at such meeting,
by mutual consent, or by a majority of voices of the said
clergy and laity, severally and respectively, with the
assent of the said bishop, or of the majority of the said
bishops, if more than one, to make all such regulations
as may be necescary for the better conduct of
their ecclesiastical affairs and for the holding of
meetings for the said purpose thereafter." Those gen-
tlemen wished to be placei in the position of a member
of any Dissenting community. One of them had told
him that he would be content to be put on the same
footing as the " Jumpers."—( A laugh.) Was that so?
Were the members of the Church of England—he
would take Van Diemen's Land—to divest themselves
of the character of members of that Church, and put
themselves on an equality with the Jumpers? [An
Hon. Member (we believe Mr. Gladstone)—,, Yes."
(Laughter.] Let the House understand what that
meant. First, he would strike out altogether the name
of the United Church of England and Ii eland—they were
1,0 longer of that sect—they were pers?ns professing
anything they libel-3 simple body of Dissenters, that
chose to meet together, and why, then, should the Im-
perial Parliament pass anything about them at all ?
(llean) He wanted to have that question answered.
They were' going to create a legislature in that country
—that would have power over religious sects. The only
body of churchmen with whom that House could have
any possible sympathy was the United Church of England
and Ireland, as it was called ; but that Church held the
Queen for its heal—it looked to the various arch-
bishops and bishops for its direction in clerical affairs
—it did not presume to . meet together, its bishops and
laymen, for the purpose of church 'government, land to
set up their opinions against that of the
Church as by law established. If they ever
established that, there was an end to the Church of
England and Ireland, and they would attain that
which he (Mr. Roebuck) had so long desired—the
complete separation of Church and State.—(Hear,
hear.) But let them not misunderstand themselves.
There was a High Church party—those who called
themselves a supereminent and peculiar Church party,
who went back to mediaeval Church literature, painted
windows, and all the fantastic proceedings which arose
out of a peculiar state of ignorance—(Bear, hear. and
a laugb)—these persons said " Let us go back to that
medieval state which we believe to be a state of excel-

lence," and they traced out those ideas in their own way.
They appealed to America.—(Hear.) What did they
find there? No established church—perfect equality—
freedom amongst all sects—(Hear)—no power derived
from the state, and no money from the state—(Hear,
hear)—and that was a very particular item in this mat-
ter.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, if they were prepared
to deal thus with the colonies, were they prepared to
deal thus with England? Because, if that were fitting
for our communities that went out into the wilds of
America, or South Australia, or South Africa, let them
say it should be so here.—(Hear, hear.) He objected
to a church establishment; ho wanted to see a separa-
ration between Church and State—(Hear, hear)—and
when he made a motion on that subject as to Ireland,
as he hoped to do on the 23th of this month, he
trusted he should have the support of those gentle-
men: It might depend upon his motion. He would.un-
undertake it should be so unlike the motion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that it should be perfectly intelli-
gible to everybody.—(A laugh.) He bad tried to under-
stand this motion. He had asked many of his Hon.
Friends around him to direct their minds to it; ho had
gone through it word by word, passage by passage; he
had tried his ingenuity, and puzzled his own brains about
it, but the words, as it were turned round, and he could
not get at the meaning of them.—(A laugh.) (The
Hon. Member read the first part of the motion.) Was it
at all in the scope of the English Church, was it in the
character or spirit of that Church, that the people
should meet together, with the bishop at their head or
outside, and that in Van Diemen's Land they should
come to the conclusion that if she bishop did not accede
to their proposition, then it was to be no proposition,
but if ho did accede to it then it was to bo a proposition?
What was the ecclesiastical revenue of that state—what
was the it3m in the miscellaneous estimates brought before
that House to pay the said, bishop? [Mr. Gladstone—
Then let them have no bishops.
estimate ; before many days they
would hileatrheeewerdeas wasn an m
thereestwiasa tee.n'ecclesiastical estimate for all
—and when it came before the House he
our—[Several Hon. Members—. No such thing."]
)it out to them, and then they would Well, then, let them pass. that by, if they liked—(Rear,
point
talue of that cheer.—(Hear. hear.) He had
under-
standwo andu l ad
hpa
eou
could ordinary
not
fought that question too often in that House not to know
distinctly Oat there was a constant yearly payment for
the purpose of the English Church, which he could well
Church,ul: clerstsibidutthe English
feelingsuncierste ofd
when they
made that Church, as it were, a separate and independent
establishment, without the
.eale of the Church of Eng-
land, and of Ireland, deriving. support from the HOLM_
It was not what they ought to do as an independent com-
munity; but he denied that character. to them. If they
asked for it, he was pettedly they should be an
independent community of religionists, but first, as such
wwihthichtlhiee
a body, they wanted no propositon from that House,
and next, they were about to be under a Legislature in-
dependent of that House, and might be, what they de-
clared they.wished to be—like • Jumpers."--(A laugh.)
Ile was told there were three bodies which they recog-
nised—the Church of England, the Church of Rome,
and the Church of Scotland; but this body did not come
within any of those categories, they were of a fantastic
sort of religion, and wished to be considered as some-
thing peculiar in themselves, who wanted all the charac-
teristics of an ancient community, and all the liberty of
any modern community a religionists that could be de-
vised. But that was not to be permitted. If they
belonged to
the Church of England they must submit to its ordi-
nances, and if they did not belong to it, let them call
themselves Dissenters, and he would ask a.nd demand for
them perfect freedom to do what they liked, however
ridiculous it might be—(A laugh)—but let them not ask
the State in any way to sanction any of their proceed-
ings. They were bound then to oppose the proposition
of the Right Hon. Gentleman; it was not a motion which
a Member of the Church of England, as such a member,
ought to propose. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had
proposed it as a "Jumper"--(' laugh)—he should
have thoroughly understood him, and would have
seconded it; but not haying done so he felt bound to
oppose it.
Mr. R. PALMER said ho was afraid, from the speech
they had just heard, and from other symptoms which
unfortunately no one could help perceiving, that we
were approaching times in which the principle on which
an established church was maintained would be dis-
cussed under far different cirumstances from those to
which they bad hitherto been accustomed, or those upon
which those who were friendly to the. Church, to the
Monarchy, or to the English Constitution, could wish to
see it discussed.—(Hear, hear.) There were men—and
he believed he was doing no wrong to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman if he inferred from hie speech that
he was one of the number—there were men who were
unfriendly to the principle of an established church,
who did not think it beneficial to the great interest of
the country, and who rejoiced at everything that tended
to impair its efficiency or to retard its progress. But
he did not believe that that was the principle upon
which either the House, or the country, or her Majesty's
Government—to whose sincere desire to promote the
best interests of the Church be was most ready to
bear his testimony—he did not believe that
was the principle on which they would oppose the
clause then under the consiCeration of the House.
The only principle upon which an established church