The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-22 00:00:00

1844-,

ble Lord were to say so, of course it was needless for
him (Mr. Christie) to say that he should place im-
plicit confidence in the statement; but he must say
that, under the circumstances, that which had been
stated by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Wort-
ley) ought to be confirmed by the Noble Lord himself.
He asked the House to alter the Bill so, that the peo-
ple whom it was desired to benefit should be relieved
by the just application of a general Bill ; and his
great object in supporting the instruction was in
the hope of superseding all other such proceedings
as 'tight be instituted by common informers.
Such informations for penalties ought, in his
opinion, never to be allowed, except originated by
the clerk of the peace or some other, public officer.
He wanted a broad, general, just, and impartial ap-
plication of a wholesome principle, and that legisla-
tion in that House should not be for individuals but
for the whole people.
Mr. 'C. BERKELEY would yield to rio man in
his desire to extend. every protection to the sports of
the poor, as well as the rich.—(Hear, hear.) The
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Christie) - said the
other evening, that if they passed ' this Bill,
then they -would be legislating for a class
only. He had offered to support the instruction of
the Hon. Gentleman, provided he would consent to
engraft on it a pledge to extend the provisions of the Bill
to all statutes which relate to the sports of the people.
He now, therefore, gave the Hon and Learned Gentle-
man (Mr. Wortley) notice that, on the bringing up of
the report of the Bill, he should move a clause to that
effect.

Mr. BUTT said, that within the last few years,
no less than five or six Bills of a similar character and

principle to the one now before the House had been
brought id and liaised without a dissentient voice from
Hon. Members on either side. If the Hon. Member
for Manchester and others had not opposed (as he
had not) these measures at the time of their passing,
it was rather remarkable they should now set their
faces so strongly against an ex post facto, law which
was quite as just, and necessary as any of those
entertained by— the House on former occasions.
He regretted exceedingly that he was. compelled to
dissent from those for whom he felt...personally
so much respect ; but still he thought some of his
Hon. Friends were influenced more by prejudice than
cool judgment.-
After a few words from Mr. MANWAIRING and
Colonel WYNDHAM,
Captain PECHELL rose, amid much confusion
and loud cries of " Divide, divide," and said, as well
as we could catch his words, that he was sure there
were many. Hon. Gentlemen near him who would
wish to hear the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op-
posite, and the Noble Lord who had brought in the
Bill express their opinion on the matter before the
House proceeded to a division.
Mr. WAKLEZ entirely disagreed froni the Hon.
and Learned MeMber for Gateshead, who had com-
pletely mistaken the nature of the present Bill. Its•
object was to frustrate the designs of certain parties,
who were'sueing others for the very acts Which* they
themselves had committed.—(Hear, hear.) • His
principal object in rising was to call the attention of
the Right Hon. Baronet to a practice that was preva-
lent in that town. He alluded to the practice adopted
by the stipendiary magistrates with respect to little
boys who were brought before them for playing at pitch
and toss. It was only two days ago that three little
boys, who believed that they had been enjoying a per-
fectly. .innocent amusement, were brought before the
magistrates and were sent to the treadwheel at the House
of Correction, for playing at pitch and toss. Now, he
thought it would be well if the Right Hop. Baronet the
Home Secretary were to intimate to the magistrates that
he disapproved of the practice pursued by them, and
order these little fellows to be at once liberated.

After a few words, from Mr. M. Gnisox and Mr. J. S.
WouTLpr,
Mr. CHRISTIE withdrew his ameadment.

Mr. HUME wished it to be distinctly understood.
that though he had expressed his intention not to oppose
the Bill, he should consider it a violation of the under-
standing which had been come to if the Bill which had.
been sent to them from the Lords was proceeded with.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was clear to
him that Hon. Gentlemen were labouring under a mis-
apprehension in regard to this second Bill. It was
simply a Bill of Indemnity to protect from future conse-
quences the witnesses who gave evidence on tho subject
of games and gaming before the Committee of the House
of Lords. It enacted thai the certificate of the
chairman of that Committee should protect a party
giving evidence from the penalties he might otherwise
be Subjected to for acts disclosed by him in that evidence
—but, it interfered not with the operation of the law be-
yond those specific circumstances.
The House then went into Committee, the preamble
was postponed, and on Mr. Wortley moving the first
clause, .
Lord HOWICK said—Unfavourable as he was to
betting in any shape, he still agreed in the propriety of
the Bill ; but he hoped the House, in passing it, would,
effectually guard itself against doing anything
that might encourage the habit of betting. The
:measure before , the House went to stop not
only the actions which were commenced, but also
any that might he commenced. This he 'could not ap-
prove of. He looked upon the question of betting which
now existed in this country, as most injurious to the
character, morals, and happiness of the people. This
Bill was brought forward nominally to shelter persona
who had been taken by surprise ; but its practical ope-
ration would- extend further. Perfect warning had
now been given to all parties, and the House ought
therefore to take care that any gaming which hereafter
took place, shOuld have no protection from it.- -
(Hear, hear.) With this view he should move
that after the word " thereat," in clause I, line 41,
the following words should be added—" Such gaming or
betting being alleged to have taken place previous to
the 21st of January, 1844." The protection would thus
extend to the time at which he (Lord Hbwick) was

speaking, and no longer.
Mr. WORTLEY quite concurred with the Noble
Lord in his' desire 'to elevise means for limiting and re-
gulating betting in this country. He did not think that
the Noble Lord was quite aware of the effect of- the
clause 'as it at present stood. The Bill itself wits only
to extend till the end of the session, or for three months;
or some other limited time, to be filled up in Committee,,
the object being to give time 'to the Committee to sit and
report to the House, when the House, doubtless, would
frame and pass a measure founded on its recommenda-
tions for checking and regulating betting and games. If
the-House did not pass such a measure, the present Bill
would drop at the period named for its duration, or at
the end of the session, and all parties would be again
liable to the penalties which the present law ordained;
just as much as if the relief now *Posed, had never
,been heard of.
Lord HOWICK said the upshot of this would be that
if the Committee did not report for some time, or if a
measure were brought into Parliament, as would probably
be the case, towards the end of the session, then, on account
of the lateness of the session, such measure or Bill would
be withdrawn,,and:che , proposed 'enactment now:before
the House would be renewed in a hurry, and then al-:
lowed to settle down quietV as's, permanent law. Thus
they would praetictilly protect the betting which they
now wished; orllrofesSed to wish, to put down or regu4
late. The Object' lie 'desired' to attain could only be of
fected by the introduction of the words he had submit-
ted to the House. We thought it fair to state, that if his
ainendinditas w rejected,- he) should regard the Bill as

giving' facilities for betting, and in that view he should
deem it his duty lei divide against it in its subsegnent
stages.— (H e ar, hear.)
bir JAMES GRAHAM said he agreed. in the general
Principle of disfavour as to, betting laid down by the
Noble Lord (11Owiek), and he was most anxious that the
whole subjeM of gaming should' be referred to a Com-
mittee with the view of devising means to place checks
generally on betting. If the Noble Lord opposite was
determined to persevere in his motion, he (Sir James
Graham) Would feel bound to divide the House against
' •

' Mr. I.I.UME approved of theproposition of the Noble Lord, becauie it would be likely to guard against future
batiny.---X due notice would be giien by this law, that
every person who betted did so at their own peril ;- yet
the Bight pon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department said he felt bound to vote against the mo-
tion of the. Noble Lord.

Mr. DABthr said that at the, expiration of a certain
.period—either three -inontlig, or twelve 'months, or two
years, partiei could prosecute these actions again.
:Lord EIfItINGTON thought, perhaps, it might be
as well if an' immunity' Werogiietf for all past transec-
dims! and leeie the laW 'alone until the Committee
'should have inidlime to corisidee the matter more care-
fitlly. However,
.he should. SuppOrt '.the motion of his
Welt lion. ,Friend; if thallousa,divided.: •
Captain ROVS, said that, as. almost every one now
made up _ a book on the Derby—(dear, and laughter)—
the present measure was of some importance. lie
thought fhe Hon; ltiembi for 'Gateshead had quite mis-
stated the cases; ta which he hadalluded..- He thought
the best plan would be to let betting alone, and it would
_cure itself. Whit *as to be deplored was; that bets
came into a court ,of law. He thought the Legislature
should never have interfered with betting, and as for
their injuring' the morals of the people, it was doWn-
right humbug.: Those races.he contended had a good
influence on the community ; they brought persons of
different parties together, and•the fury and rancour of
party strife_was forgotten in the pleasures of the :amuse-
men t,—(Hear, hear.)
Lord PAlXERSTONprofessed that he wOuldvather
have the-Bill as it stood. A Committee was about to
be appointed to consider the general-relations of the
and he thought it Was' better to leave the Bill as it was.
After a few words. from Lord EnniNarox and Mr.
S. WORTLEY,. , • • , •
Lord G. 13ENTINCK. said, that no bets on the en-
suing. Derby races
..could, according to the present state
'of the law, be the subject of qui tam actions until the Ist
of September next. •
The' gallery was then cleared for a division, but
none took place, and the. Bill . was proceeded with.
The clause; as amended, was then agreed, to.
The remaining clauses, with some verbal alteration-S ?
were agreed to._
_, _

On preamble being proposed, ,
Mr. CHRISTIE said he thought the line in the pre-
amble, which stated that the parties against whom the
late qui tam actions had been brought, were ignorant
that in making the bets respecting which the actions
had been brought against them, they were committing
an illegal act, shOuld be struck out. •
Lord GEORGE BENTINCK said he 'had believed,
arid he believed still, that in.m4ipg, bets,";korse--
racing he was doing a perfectlkle-gra a&-
Mr, ROEBUCK said this was a novel principle of