The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-25 00:00:00

bell_
.anote of it before the meeting was held by Mr. O'Con- 1 (and the decision was affirmed by the full Court on the mo-
" , I did so on one side of the road. tion for a new trial), that the evidence was admissible in-
Fhovs me your note ?-I hav'nt it here. asmuch as it was calculated to show the character of the in-
vtd You not, to the jury, awhile ago, look at your notes, anu tended meeting. In the present case, the evidence of the
('erded to read it from your book ?-I did, and I have it here witness now under examination, went to prove that statements
J'inig a paper to Counsel). were made by persons coming from the meeting at Baltinglass
lur. Fitzgibbon (looking at the paper)-Did you not awhile in reference to the question asked at that meeting, whether,
t,ll .e
jury that you made this note the day of meeting ? when Mr. O'Connell came again they would be there to meet
eot t that note. him, or questions to that effect. It was a question for the jury
14-Jjtl,you believe I was speaking of anything else than that as to the way that language was understood. Then they had
yoruvrrt Did you b lieve my question was about the paper in the people leaving that meeting, declaring that they were
eeand, or any other paper ?-I cannot answer that question. ready to turn out and fight for repeal if necessary. Common
ti,seew a.nswer this single question, Where is the original note sense told them that what was understood by that meeting
s!, "Inch you say you wrote this book ?- I think it is burnt. was more calculated to be proved by what they
eli_ead men tell no tales : when did you burn it ?-When I said after the meeting was over than before they came
s°.,!ehrome after sending in my report. there. He contended that the meeting was not over because
„s,''See e you ordered to take notes ?-I was ordered to take the people might be dispersing. In the loth volume of the
1 of particular words. State Trials, page 553, they would find it so laid down ; and
o,,ds° You mistake my words?-I do not remember that I was suppose that some of the parties who attended the meeting at
"ed to take notes. It was with a pencil I took notes. I Baltinglass went off to Mr. Saunders's house, and committed
set
prepared with paper to take notes. an act of violence on it going from the meeting, he insisted that
it"eport the expression again respecting Saunders.-I will. would be evidence against every person flat spoke at that
That is what you have written ?-Something to that effect. relied on, and contended that the people alluded to were
s','eard words to that effect from several persons-who said coming from the meeting, and that the actions and expres.
ttisraeders would befrightened to-day. Another said Devil's sions of such people could be given in evidence, as the acts
t to him he would not came down and join the people for of the party who attended the meeting. They had it in evi-
'
dence already that the people were heard to say that we must
n„, You not tell me this minute that you made a note of the have repeal, as we are sober and determined men ; and could
1t54,1"?-I made a note of it upon the paper that was burnt. it be said that they could not give such declarations in evidence
h,ee notes that I slid not mention in my report. The book after the meeting, when declarations before the meeting were
thaT, hands is nearly the same as my report. I cannot say admissible?
pit is so exactly. Mr. Whiteside sustained the objection, and said the case cited
k're Freeman-Let the report be put into the witness's by the Attorney-General made entirely for his (Mr. W.'s)
ds, clients. He read from page 111, Philips on Evidence, and said
Air. Fitzgibbon objected to such a course. it was ruled that the conduct of persons going to a meeting
thiefitJustice-Wait until the cross-examination is over, and could be received in evidence, because it was a declaration of
eon be then time enough to put the report in his hand. the thing done before the meeting ; but anything said or done
Cr. Freeman contended that the document ought to be after was not evidence, and of course could not be received.
tted ash once inure the witness's hand, or else that Mr. Fits- He read from page 201 of Philips, and contended that it was
iti„,a ould fgo the intention of asking the witness any in his favour.
se,-,s,"en respecting it, for it was a fixed rule of law that no Judge Crampton-This is a very important matter ;it is
iht',ess could be interrogated respecting the contents of any stated that in the case of Dr. Sacheverell, the declarations were
i',lnent which was not in the first instance laid before him. made by the mob after the meeting.
tob'r. Fitzgibbon maintained that the document ought not to Mr. Hatchell-It says mob, but it does not state that the
)4,. ',,Placed in the witness's hand, and assured the Court that matter took place after the meeting, but merely a mob that ee-
ls, }lad had totally misconceived the drift of his question. eompanien him to the Temple. .
tSsel asked him if the report he had sent in to his superior Judge Crampton-That is very important ;if it was made
eiti'r was the same as the book in his hand, thereby plainly before the meeting the case is settled, but if after it does not
n tin! him whether he had taken the book from the report, exactly apply to this case, and therefore I think we ought to
tio e report from the book ? But he did not put any ques- investigate the matter.
ktar him as to what was or was not in his report. He Mr. Whiteside-Here are two men who are met, half a
ely asked him how his report was framed. He wished to mile from the place of meeting, shouting, and that at an hour
t:w whether the book was framed from the report or the after the meeting. If such things could be given in evidence,
te,`,:jsrt from the book, and he was at a loss to think how that the acts of the parties next day might be admitted. The case
ar'" be construed into a question respecting the contents of of Lord George Gordon was where the expressions were used
Trhepost. by the mob while they were pulling down a house.
Nie e Attorney-General contended, that according to the The Attorney.General-In page 553 of the State Trials you
rlaw it was absolutely necessary that the document should will find it was the mob who accompanied Doctor Sacheverell
ket?i 'Ted in the witness's hand. This point was decisively after the meeting was over.
ee in the Queen's case. Mr. Fitzibbon's question was Jdge Cram pt
e vidence was that a mob acom-
so' Does the book in your hand correspond with the report paniued him to the Temple ; but it does not say they did so
t 4'; furnished? and surely this question was, in point of fast, from the meeting ; and that is the important fact to be
Iniount to an inquiry as to the contents of the report. understood.
Iql,'r• Justice Crampton (to Mr. Fitzeibbor,)-Put your The Attorney-General-What we rely on is this, that the
(elan again, Mr. Fitzgibbon, if you please,' and that may declarations of those persons is part of the res giste of the case.
lie the controversy. Judge Perrin-If it was proved that a shouting and expres-
h„r. Fitzgibbon (to witness)-Now, Sir, tell me this, did sions were used by the body of the meeting, it would be a dif-
vv°PY your report from that book in your hand ? ferent thing ; but here are two men, not apparently connected
lot !tr'ese-The way of it was this.-(Laughter.) In the with the meeting, and away from it, using certain expressions.
n.lostance I made out my report from the notes which I Mr. Moore-And there is no evidence that they were even
tss`e°ll the day of meeting, and then I copied what I have in at the meeting.
Vele.ok from my report. I copied the report which is in this The Chief Justice-Let that fact be ascertained.
from the report which I sent into my office. Mr. Tomb (to witness)-Where were the men ?-On the
ths'e you copy the book from the report before you sent in the bridge when I came up. I can't swear that they formed a
net? ...yes portion of the people who were at the meeting.
Are , '
Ne)011 sure new ?-Indeed I think I am. I have ex- Judge Crampton-The Crown in this case had better not
ised it to you how it was. I took a report from my original press the evidence.
and sent it off, and a copy of that report I brought to Mr. Moore-If the jury have taken any notes of this evi-
y station
h • dente the Court will please order it to be struck out.
ifW
.at became of that copy ?-I don't know what became The Chief Justice told the jury to strike out the evidence.
at,. I dare say it is at home-I'm sure I don't know- Cross-examined by Mr. Moore, Q. C.-I knew of the meat-
th" 'taY-I believe I have it here-yes, here it is. This is ing before, as it was quite notorious ; heard of it for about three
wre,port which took from my original notes. weeks before that timewas quite notorious in all the dis-
thie ells read it through, and tell me do you find in it any- trict, and we all knew it was a meeting for the Repeal of the
s,gg about .4 devil's cure to Saunders?-( Witness giving a Union ; all was quiet at the meeting ; there was perfect peace,
,lilii_teiut_rh.soerrye. glance over his report.) No, there is nothing no acts of violence were committed; I did not see anything
like the least breach of the peace.
who's' Fitzgibbon-Why, Sir, you don't think it worth your The Court and Jury retired for a quarter of an hour.
"to look through your notes for it? Witness (carelessly) Manus Hughes sworn and examined by Mr. Holmes-Is.
in
I know •
les it Is not in it. the police, acting constable, was stationed in August within
Lo,sliere were you when you made out your report ?-In a twenty-one miles of Baltinglass ; was at Baltinglass on the 6th
V, in Baltinglass. of August last ; there was a great assemblage of people there
Veo owns that house ?-I forget the man's name. on that day ; thinks he knows Mr. O'Connell ; he (Mr.
:On forget his name ?-Yes I do. All I know is, that he is O'Connell, was pointed out to witness at the meeting ; never
trPenter. saw him before. Witness went to Baltinglass the day before
Its keeps a lodging house. Does he not ?-Yes, he does. the meeting ;he went to the meeting in plain clothes.
4nd you lodged in his house, and have been for ten or eleven People were coming into the town all the morning. Saw Mr.
fiejLrs in Baltinglass, and yet, notwithstanding all this, you forget O'Connell about two o'clock; he came in by the turepike
h'' erie ?-I do not remember it. I never lodged in his house road, the Dublin one. There were a great many people
St a
„cc. with him. When witness saw hint, it was when he was
Your memory must, indeed, be very treacherous, and yet coming near the platform. Witness took notes of what passed
't' Can remember what Mr. O'Connell said that day 1 Passing that day ; he wrote them next morning. Will swear to their
tieing. that ! I think I may let you go down, Sir. correctness.
Witness-My Lords, I never was stationed at Baltinglass for Cross-examined by Mr. O'Hagan-There was no breach
,`,)re than a fortnight, and there are numbers of people there of the peace ?-There was not, nor any appearance of one.
"ra I don't know. Did the people go away peaceably after the meeting ?-Yes.
l‘lr. Fitzgibbon-Go down, Sir.
John Macan examined by Mr. Smyley-Is a police-con-
The witness left the table. stable. Was at Clontibret on the 15th of August. The Rev.
lift,`!e next witness called was Henry Twiss, examined by Mr. Tierney was there. (Witness here identified Mr. Tierney
th Manley Q.C.-I am a sub-constable, and was so in in Court.) It was a large meeting. The Rev. Mr. Tierney
ilecier
enionth of' 'August last. I was stationed at that time at said the Union was carried by every species of fraud and cor-
°Hs in the county of Wicklow, which is thirty miles ruption.
Au„nt from Baltinglass. I was at Baltinglass on the 6th of ( The witness here stated some particulars of an interview he
lOt last. There was a Repeal meeting there that day. had with Mr. Tierney previous to the meeting.)
on rived at Baltinglass the evening before. I went there Do you remember anything else he said ?-I do. He talked
I seriutY: I made a report to my officer of what I saw there. with regard to the feeling for repeal having become general,
os, in nay report on the morning of the next day. Thi s and had extended itself (or words to that effect) to the army.
ke- 'cent now handed to me is the report, and was written by I recollect his saying that it would not now be so easy to spill
ell , There was a great crowd at the meeting. lam not at the blood of their fellow-men who were seeking their rights
wssien the habit of estimating numbers, but I am sure there peaceably.
`l'Ls at all events, 5,000 persons at the Baltinglass meeting. Repeat, and repeat slowly, what Mr. Tierney said about the
let,n_nenonfident that lam greatly under the mark. I saw Mr. army ?-I cannot speak as to the precise words, but I will take
rell there, and others whom I don't know. The chair care not to exaggerate them. He said the army was now in
frostone time occupied by a gentleman, named Copeland, favour of repeal, and that it partook of the enthusiasm of the
torteesnee"ea Dunlavin. Another gentleman was subsequently people and that they could not be led to bayonet their fellow-
nuesu . chair. The second chairman was some person men w'ho were seeking to redress their grievances peaceably.
o,o73_,nalcullen Bridge. I was at the meeting about one Do you remember anything else that passed between you ?-
ttt,htle t:mite.etiLminixed in the crowd. I was ordered to attend I do. I recollect his saying on that occasion -" See what the
plain clothes and I did so. I saw people army has done in Spain." This was on the 16th of June.
various directions, some came from A juror-Was this a private conversation with Mr. 'Tierney?
earliong Prom
ler,„ vr, others from Tallow. I was on the plat- -I do not know what you may esteem it. I was there on duty
of at ane time at another time I was NI ithin five yards to inquire about the meeting.
t. I heard people in the crowd make various political ob- Was nobody present but Mr. Tierney ?-There was a per-
t!vatios. I heard some people saying " Ireland was trampled son with him who retired as I came; but there was nobody
but she shall be so no longer. The timed is nearer than within hearing at the time the conversation passed.
:11 think. Let us wait patiently for some months. Ireland Mr. Smiley-You just began to say something about what
T°gtrampled on long enough but she rball be so no longer." Mr. Tierney said respecting the soldiers in Spain.
tw e MeetinF lasted, as well as I remember, from about half-past Did Mr. Tierney say anything then ?-He did ; the conver-
I c
:110 six 'lock. I was shown Mr. Steele there that day. sation might have lasted about a quarter of an kour, but I can-
ta'aw the Rev. Mr. Murtagh there. He made a speech. I not charge my memory with everything that occurred.
01 state what he said as I made no report of it. Do you recollect anything more 2-He spoke about the As-
ss rent-examined by Mr. M'Donogh-I took no notes of what sociation. He said if it did not ultimately attain its object, it
as
`aid by the speakers. would at least have done thus much-that the country would
n I Presume that when you heard the people say, " the time get something else besides bayonets.
4earer than you think," they were speaking of the Re- Judge Perrine-.Reeeat that, repeat what he did say ?-1-le
\i'f;',OfutlhiekeU. Union?-.I ?--I could not say ; but you may suppose said that the Association, even if it should not finally or ulti-
mately succeed in gaining its object, it had done so much at
the en are not able to ascribe any other meaning to it ; but least, that the country would get other measures than the
...../trePeal of the union was the subject they were discussing ? bayonet. or words to that effect.
was.
131dMr. Moore-Did you take any notes of the conversation
all re,. You see all the people retire?-I can't say I saw them with Mr. Tierney, on the 16th of June ?-I made a short
7,,tire, but I saw them going away in every direction. entry of the substance of some of it. I made an entry of that
fe,,,e was no breach of the peace at that meeting ?-Not portien of it having reference to the period at which the
couldmeet-
ing was to be held.
Sti Ate see.
ht" no tendency to a breach of the peace ? No ; not the Have you these notes with you at present ?-I have an ex-
sess tract of them. Here is the note which I took of one passage
; anything went off very peaceably ?-It of the conversation (and that the only passage), immediately
ve,aetne. exceedingly sorry you did not take ample notes of after the conversation.
ell'uing that occurred there. You may go down. When did you take that note ?-That is part of a note which
v„4 Sloore again begged to know whether their Lordships I took on the very day of the meeting, on the 16th of June. I
iedi''?•eortsider the traversers affected by expressions that any entered that in my chary.
tsteviduals might think fit to use after the meeting had sepa- Come, come, Sir, lam not asking you anything about your
seol'' Their Lordships would see how dangerous the effect of diary. Take that piece of paper in your hand, Sir, and tell me
a line of examination might be ; they had lately ruled that is that the note you took of the conversation of June 16th ?
Ilareen'qr's in coming to a meeting conducted themselves in a -That is a copy of the note which I entered in my diary on
ete4ular way, and thereby gave a character to the meeting, it the occasion in question.
Role be admissible ; but it struck his mind that it would be What has become of your diary ?-I suppose it is at the
too a very dangerous length to allow the traversers
being af- station in the county.
fre`-`l3y Conversation between individuals, when going home Who has the care of it there ?-The senior constable. I
tti,„- m a
meeting. No man could possibly be safe, if such a doe. saw it last on the day I was coming up to town, namely,
4 as thating,
was held. ou the 10th of this month. I made the entry on the very day
dfietser• hat
followed on the same side. A party might be of the conversation, but as I have already told you it only refers
ateld by what took place at a meeting where he was present, to that portion of the dialogue which alluded to the time of
Ids 'rein which he had the option of withdrawing, if he holding the meeting. There is no other remark upon the
leitaled, and not affirming by his presence his sanction of the same subject except that of which this document is a copy.
toe,' and tranquil at a meeting, when it separated his Read out your note. - (Witness here read his note, which
Mllen with it ceased ; it was impossible for him to set was somewhat to the following effect :-" 16th of June. Saw
ars right, or to be answerable for the conduct or miscone Priest Tierney upon the subject of the contemplated meeting.
eth„, the language or declarations of those pal ties, or of parties He said that the time was net as yet fixed for the meeting,
Atotel4eight not have been at that meeting at all, although coming that it depended on the convenience of some barristers who were
fr,r4 esungs, But, ,suppose everything to have been fair, to attend, but that he would give due and proper notice to the
ton, the direction of it-it would be surely inconsistent that a authorities when the day was settled," &c., &c.-(Laughter.)
bap, ,Should be affected in character, property, liberty, or per- Have you in your diary any note of Mr. Tierney's expres-
ti uis life, by the conversations of persons over whom he had siona relative to repeal, Spain, and the army ?-No, I have not.
control
Pet • I did not think it necessary to make any note of them.
poi, 'telt Lenehan sworn and examined by Mr. Tomb-I am a I did not ask you what might or might not appear rims-
stst. e-constable. I was at Baltinglass on the 6th of August sary to your sublime judgment; I merely asked you had you
":)'en I saw the people coming into the town to meet Mr. any note of those expressions ?-No, I have not a word on the
tteessAnell. I cannot say how many, but there were some subject in my diary.
tfeet-'etts there. I saw them going over the bridge of 'Were there any magistrates at that meeting?-There were.
in
hies Pug on the Dublin road. I was at the meeting when Do you know their names?-1 recollect having seen Mr.
alieu( Connell came there. I was in plain clothes. I was Plunkett at that meeting.
of t thirty yards from the platform. I saw Father Lalor How far was he from the platform ?-About half a quarter of
tee, aitinglass there, and Mr. Steele, and the Rev. Mr. Mur- a mile.
the t the Ras
Kilcullen. I heard Mr. O'Connell tell the people Did you see any other magistrates there
saw Mr. Gould
would-ewes glad to see them there, and that he hoped they about the same distance from it that the police and army were.
all 01 us there when be came again.-( Great laughter). They Oh ! then, there was an army, and police, and magistrates,
the bnted at that. After the meeting was over I went across there ?-Yes.
Ytte,„"ne towards Baltinglass, in the direction of the bar- Who had the army brought there?-Why, I made report
The place was very much thronged. I heard some of of the meeting as soon as I heard it was to take place, and I
tit?re.ople again it._ can't say who brought them there after that.
tie,t he
your Lordship think this is evidence to Tell us your opinion as to what caused them to be brought
the traversers-what was said or done by the people after these ?-l'sly opinion is that when the report was made to the
the:4st4'n had taken place, and whether that can give a officer of the district, he made a report, and upon that they
Alecto, to, the meeting? were brought there.
lag r;Tomb submitted that the effect produced by the meet- Was that meeting a very peaceable one ?-.Yes.
Chi "ideni-se• You saw no breach of the peace there ?-No.
third( ef Justice- The objection may be premature ; I How many magistrates were there altogether ?-I think
it." cannot exolude the evidence. four-Mr. Plunkett, Mr. Gould, Mr. Hamilton, and 1 believe
l'eteset'ess---I was obliged to stop on the bridge, it was so Captain Wilcocks.
thee„'"eds and there was such a lot of people there ; one of William Thompson sworn, and examined by Mr. Baker-I
" Repeal is certain now-we must get it ;" another am a head constable of police. I was stationed at Castleblay-
we do not get it quietly we will fight for it ;" another ney, in the county Monaghan, in the month of August last. I
Ile we will turn out to a man and fight for repeal." remember the meeting at Clontibret on the 15th of August.
11114-:t,tfianrgis the bridge of Baltinglass from the place where I was there on duty. I was in uniform. I remember seeing
gentlemen come on the platform. I was close to it, so that I
was held ?-I think it is about half a mile.
114111011 g after the roceedings at the meeting was it you meld hear part of the speeches delivered. I saw the chair
NeesgOie expressions.'-It was not an hour. taken by a gentleman whom I understand to be Captain
„11, • the
people going home from the meeting at the time? Seaver. I heard him say something which I took a note of on
ltfr`3',,vsere going off in every direction at the time. the platform. I have that note by me. I took notes of what
QUQati
n`Ctilh respectfully submitted that this was a proper was said by others, besides Captain Seaver.
Uesa to be asked, and that the evidence as to what the wit- What did you hear Captain Seaver say ?-I heard him ask
thaetat,r,d the people say on the bridge was admissible, on the the meeting if they had all got Repeal cards? A voice cried
'wag ,flat it tended to show what the nature of the meeting out that they would. He said, ~ Loose no time in getting
Til4atlOdthe effect likely to be produced by the language used. them. I have reason for saying so. Other Associations have
ttel'ilei.°l'7 who used She expressions sworn to by the witness signs and pass-words by which they might know each other.
usteneted-,e'° be part of Ole crowd that met at that meeting, and know no better way for you to know each other than by pro-
,isuavhat was said. during your Repeal card."
oev.,_thee,:ssteiczoCrdrasTpton (te witness)-Was it in a home you Ilave you anything more that fell from the chairman ?-I
hare.
Atrt.n, $-No, on the bridge. Proceed then.-The chairman afterwards desired. the people
, hie, 4.puss_ti,ce Crampton-1 thought you went into a house. when the meeting terminated to depart to their homes peace-
you have notes of the chairman's
"11)-1,10, my Lord, he said the bridge. The Learned ably, and to insultnofpwerhsiocthe
adreisfeafiain submitted that the evidence of the witness was Is that the whole o
net assiule. inasmuch as it characterised that meeting.- .He was speech ?-Yes.
that tenon but intli ."'as
a
this eel" that there }'ou recollect anything the chairman said, that you have
n rest or direct authority upon Do
y exp
clireth"ethpe; e case of the Manchester riots, it was ruled not on your. notes ?-I do not recollect anything else.
TtnugrewoiPthastememeeetdingto. have attended a meeting You said you heard other speeches, and took notes of them ?
-Yes.
h Justice Perrin-In that case it was what they said Do you recollect a gentleman of the name of Daunt at that
'clf the,meeting,
!sivelled others to go with them and to form part meeting ?-Yes.
hlr llave you any note of the speech inane by him?-I have.
et, • - .oore
ne't had `; thou ht that in the absence of authority the Did you hear him deliver it ?-I did.
only to look to common
ne would ask them • sense and common justice; State what he said 9.-Mr. O'Neil Daunt said, " I bless God
‘;o ugh„, proper
ern, if, after a meeting was over, men that I belong to this land-I bless God that I belong to this
L.ne,d to. act illegally, that every individual who at- people. This people shall have this land if they are worthy,
'lisle foe". at meeting one hour before, was to be made respone and who dare say that you are not worthy. The Repeal move-
tees tiLlt ? Such a thin
In was inconsistent with common
and justice. g rnent now or never,
th"° skitt • now and for ever. If Peel and Wel-
onee ~.G
Winless eneral submitted that the evidence of only give up Repeal, we would
lington came and said we will given)o.otu_neveevreyrt.hileyinourewGanntd,
ur „ Wae admissible. In the case of Bedford aainst we swear they shall never bully us out of it.. The. Far-
t
tine" the circumstance arose from expressions used by the liament would afford us the power of our keeping we had
Pink to the meeting, And Dlr. Justice NONA decided it ; we will stand to our colours, and proceed in the way