The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-01 00:00:00

IMPEtstAt. PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 31.
Mr. BOUVERIE presented a petition from Wilts
against agricultural protection.
Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Uppingham
against certain clauses in the Insolvent Debtors Bill.
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL gave notice that, on going
into Committee on that Bill he would move several
amendments.
Mr. IVYSE also gave notice that, on going into Com-
mittee on the same Bill, he should move a proviso re-
specting the visitors of the Roman Catholic College of
Maynooth.

CAPT. WARNER'S INVENTION.
Lord INGESTRE (in continuation from our Fourth
Edition of yesterday evening) said he presumed that the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, who was then First Lord of the Admiralty,
would have no objection to state whether any report had
been made to him on the subject. With respect to the
magnitude of the invention, he contended, that because it
was extraordinary it was not to be supposed to be the
result of the brain of a visionary. Thirty years ago, to
talk of gas would be considered madness, and years
before that the inventor of gunpowder had been looked
upon as an impostor. Much reproach had been cast
upon Captain Warner on the ground that he never car-
ried out what he proposed. The Noble Lord then pro-
ceeded to defend the course that had been pursued by
Captain Warner during the administration of Lord Mel-
bourne, and observed that when the subject was re-
ferred to Lieutenant Webster, who made a report,
it was treated with contempt at the Admiralty.
He considered this was a most unwarrantable breach of
confidence ; at all events, it was a most improper way
of treating a confidential communication. The report
of Lieutenant Webster corroborated in every particular
the reports which had been made by Sir Richard Keates
and Sir Thomas Hardy. That report was treated by
some persons with derision, and by others it was stated
that Captain Warner and Lieutenant 'Webster were in
collusion. He denied that such was the case. Lieutenant
Webster had made that report like an honest man, who
was anxious to do his duty to his country. Then an in-
sinuation was made that Lieutenant Webster was insane,
and the same thing was said of Sir Richard Keates. It
was said that Sir Richard Keates was in his dotage, and
that Sir Thomas Hardy had yielded up his opinion to
that of Sir Richard Keates, on account of their long
habits of personal intimacy, and from the personal re-
spect which he bore him. Now, who that knew the
high and honourable character of Sir Thomas Hardy
could for one moment imagine that he would make such
a report if he did not believe it to be correct ?—(Hear,
hear.) Lieutenant Webster's report had been presented
to the Admiralty on the 16th of September, 1839. Lord
Melbourne had frequently gone and sent to the Ad-'
miralty for that report, but had never been able to ob-
tain it. In January, 1840, it was suggested that the
Board of Ordnance should be consulted on the subject.
Sir Hussey Vivian, who was at the time at the head of
that Board, treated the whole matter with ridicule ; he
said he was incompetent to decide on the subject, but
that if he were called on to give his private opinion, he
would do so. He (Lord Ingestre) had called on Sir
Hussey Vivian on the subject, and it was evident that
Sir Hussey Vivian thought that Capt Warner was mad,
and that he (Lord Ingestre) was very little different. He
himself, however, had not as yet discovered such to
he the case, although be must confess he enter-
tained strong impressions upon this subject. He would
now read to the House a letter which Captain Warner
had addressed to the Hon. Member for Hertford (Mr.
Cowper) on this subject, the Hon. Gentleman at that
time holding the situation of private secretary to Lord
Melbourne. (The Noble Lord here read the letter al-
luded to, which was dated Feb. 3, 1840, and in which
Captain Warner, after describing the various reports
which fiad been made on the subject of his invention by
Sir Richard Keates, Sir Thomas Hardy, and Lieut.
Webster, and stating that in his opinion the knowledge
of the secret should be confined to the inventor, the
Prime Minister, and the Sovereign, observed with re-
gard to the proposal, that the invention should be sub-
mitted to Sir Ilussey Vivian—that if Sir Hussey Vivian's
decision was to be final, he would not object to commu-
nicate to him, in the presence of Lieutenant Webster,
that portion of the invention which related to the land
service.) Finding matters in that state, he (Lord In-
gestre), being convinced that the matter was worthy of
investigation, had waited on Lord Melbourne on the
subject, and had stated his willingness, although politi-
cally opposed to Lord Melbourne's Government, to afford
the Government every assistance in investigating the
matter, and he besought his Lordship not to suffer that
which might be of great importance to be turned into
ridicule. He was sure Lord Melbourne attached im-
portance to the matter, or he would not have allowed
him (Lord Ingestre) to tease him so on the subject ; he
would ' have found some means of getting rid of him,
or have said that he would have nothing to do with the
matter. He tried in vain to procure for Captain Warner
an opportunity of testing his invention. He was re-
ferred from one to another until he became tired. He

then suggested to Captain Warner that he should try
an experiment on a small scale, and undertook to re-
quest the attendance of one or two officers of distinction
to witness it. He requested the attendance of Lord
Hardwicke, and of the Hon. and Gallant Admiral, the
Member for Ripon, who was not at that time in Parlia-
ment. On the 28th of July, 1840, an experiment on a
small scale was made at Wanstead, and no person who
witnessed it could doubt its efficacy ; and Admiral Cock-
burn recommended Captain Warner to apply to the Go-
vernment, which he again did, but unsuccessfully. The
invention possessed, as well as extraordinary power,
great applicability. His demands on the Government
were always postponed. In February, 1841, another ex-
periment was made at the instance of Sir Francis Bur-
dett, and before a large number of men of rank and
station. Sir Henry Hardinge, Sir George Murray, and
his. Right Hon. Friend, were present ; it, too, was per-
fectly successful. In September, 1841, he waited en Sir
Robert Peel, who gave him a very courteous answer,
and promised not to let the matter drop. It was far
from his wish to attack the Government, but he thought
it an unfortunate thing that questions of this sort should
be frittered away in their progress from one department
to another. Sir Robert Peel referred the matter to Sir
George Murray, who proposed certain terms, to which
Captain Warner assented. The Gallant Officer then
read the document containing the views of Sir G. Murray
relative to Capt. Warner's invention. There were three
points to be attended to—first, its power—secondly,
the degree of safety and facility with which it could be
applied to useful purposes, naval and military—thirdly,
the danger 'of Foreign Powers becoming possessed of
the secret, in case the Government of Great Britain ne-
glected it. The document did full justice to the expen-
diture of time, money, and mental energy, on the experi-
ment of Captain Warner, and set forth that the Govern-
ment were willing to make a certain pecuniary advance.
Subsequently a Commission was appointed consisting of
Sir Edward Owen, Sir Howard Douglas, and Sir Byam
Martin ; the latter officer, however, could not attend on
the Commission, and Capt. Warner requested that Lord
Ingestre or Lord Hardwicke might be appointed in his
stead., It had been said that Captain Warner had asked
400,000/. for his invention, but this was a mis-
take. , A Gallant General (Sir Howard Douglas)
said he could perform himself an experiment
similar to that which Captain Warner performed
at Brighton, but this he (Lord Ingestre) did not
believe. The Gallant General had frequently thrown out
sarcasms upon Capt. Warner's experiment, such as that
he did not want to see a punt in a fish-pond, and such
like taunts.—(Laughter.) He did not think it was
proper that any member of the Commission should, be-
fore the day of trial arrived, throw out any such taunts
or inuendoes. Nothing could be fairer than the pro-
posals made by Captain Warner. He proposed to com-
municate his invention provided the Premier would un-
dertake to obtain compensation for him from the Parlia-
ment ; and he declared that he would not expect or
receive a farthing if his experiment did not prove en-
tirely successful, and every way answer the purpose for
which it was designed. It was said that the experiment
at Brighton had not been effected by the means Captain
Warner had proposed ; but he (Lord Ingestre) thought
nothing could be more complete, and there was not the
slightest appearance of the explosion having been
produced by gunpowder.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The subject of Captain Warner's invention was subse-
quently referred to a second Commission. That Com-
mission called on Captain Warner to make out an esti-
mate of the probable expense of a trial of his experi-
ments, and he did so, estimating it at 2,5001. This sum
was to purchase the hulk- of a.vessel, and to provide the
use of a steamer for a period of a month. A long cor-
respondence then ensued between Captain Warner and
the Commissioners, and the result was that Captain
Warner was offered 500/. to carry out his experiments.
This, of course, Captain Warner refused, and then the
negotiation dropped. He (Lord Ingestre) contended
that Captain Warner had never shrunk from any oppor-
tunity of making his experiments. Although he had
originally demanded 400,000 L for his two inventions,
yet he afterwards consented to abide by any decision the
Government might think proper to come to with respect
to his remuneration. He had done all he could to have
his invention fairly tested ; and he (Lord Ingestre)
thought that great praise was due to Mr. Soames, the
eminent ship-owner, for having afforded the means
for the late trial at Brighton. That gentleman looked
upon this matter as a subject of great importance to
the country, and he said, " although the Government
will not furnish the means of testing it, I will."
He (Lord Ingestre) took that opportunity of
expressing his approbation of the public spirit which
had induced that gentleman to make such a sacri-
fice.—(Cheers.) The experiment at Brighton needed
very little description from bin' (Lord Ingestre), as it
had been sufficiently detailed in all the newspapers. No
one could doubt the terrific explosive power that was
there used. He was prepared to state that those expe-
riments could be repeated in every variety of form, and
at all times of the tide. It had become a fashion to ridi-.J
cule the importance of the invisible shell. It.was said,
let us have nothing to do with the invisible shell—give
us the long range. He had no doubt, if a vessel were
to be placed outside of either of the harbours of Toulon
or Spithead, that by means of the invisible shell it would
be impossible for any ship to escape destruction coming
out of either of these harbours, SuppOse we were to
be at war with Prance—which God forbid—the French
might send A sheet to Anchor off Brighton, Stud that town

, might be laid in ashes in a few hours. Now, by this in-
vention of Captain Warner's, a hostile fleet could
be prevented from coming within severs.' miles
of any shore. He (Lord Ingestre) had only
now to beg pardon of the House for having occupied
their time so long, but he had felt strongly on this sub-
ject. He had brought it forward from a sacred sense
of duty, and he trusted the House would give him cre-
dit for having been actuated by no other motives.—
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord concjudcd by moving for
the correspondence which had taken place between her
Majesty's Government and Captain Warner, on the sub-
ject of Capt. Warner's invention.
Sir R, PEEL—Sir, I rise for the purpose of seconding
the motion of my Noble Friend, for I am determined at
length that the public shall be in possession of the cor-
respondence respecting Captain Warner's invention, and
they will then be enabled,to judge what were the reit-
sons, after that correspondence, which I hold in my
hand, had taken place, that Captain Warner was not in-
vited to exhibit his invention before professional men
calculated to judge of its merits. My Noble Friend re-
presents Ceptain Warner as being placed under circum-
stances analogous to those in which the inventor of
gunpowder was placed—namely, of being treated with
ridicule, and that there was a wish on the
part of her Majesty's Government to deprive
him of the opportunity of bringing his alleged invention
to a true test. Now I wish this House and the public to
be enabled to judge whether that is a correct representa-
tion or nor, and whether her Majesty's Government have
not given to Captain Warner every opportunity which
Captain Warner could expect, consistent with that pre-
caution which I think every one will admit that her Ma-
jesty's Government should observe in a matter of this
kind. I will make no reference whatever to what took
place between Captain Warner and her Majesty's Go-
vernment, previously to my accession to office, and my
personal knowledge of Captain Warner's proposal ; but
I am bound to say, from what I have seen of the previous
correspondence, and after my experience of the proposal
of Captain Warner, I do not believe, that her Majesty's
late Government did treat with Captain Warner in any
other manner than the present Government has treated
him. Ido not believe that they refused Captain Warner
the opportunity of exhibiting the effect of his invention.
Those connected with that Government, however, can
speak upon that point with greater confidence and autho-
rity than myself. I may observe, in passing, that it is
totally beside the question to instance any opinion that
King William might have expressed. Those who are
officially responsible must judge for themselves as to the
merits of a subject respecting which they would have
to submit to Parliament the consideration of voting
public money. My Noble Friend stated accurately that
in 1841, shortly after the accession of the Government to
office, Captain Warner's proposal was renewed. Captain
Warner stated that he was in possession of two instru-
ments of most destructive power ; one called the invisi-
ble shell, and the other called the long range. A speci-
men of the power of the invisible shell was given the
other day at Brighton. I had an opportunity of wit-
nessing an experiment on a smaller scale in a pound at
Wanstead, and I admit that the destructive power of the
instrument applied to the vessel I saw destroyed was
most formidable. I saw nothing whatever of the pre-
vious preparations. I saw a vessel blown up into the air
as completely as if ten barrels of gunpowder had been
placed in it. That I certainly saw. I was told that it
was blown up by an invisible shell brought under the
bow of the vessel. I had no op7ortunity of examining
any part of the vessel. I had no doubt that the vessel
was destroyed in the manner stated. The invisible
shell however always appeared to me to be a matter of
much less importance than the long range. I think
Captain Warner professed to be in possession of a pro-
jectile which possessed great power, which would enable
him to destroy fleets and' towns at any distance varying
from one mile to six. lam glad that my Noble Friend
has relieved me from all reserve on this subject. My
Noble Friend has appeared as the advocate of Captain
Warner, and I have no objection whatever to the pro 7
duction of these documents. He moved for the corre-
spondence, and I will give him as much of the corre-
spondence as will fully establish the relations between
Captain Warner and the Government. My Noble Friend
felt himself justified in referring to the correspondence of
Captain Warner, and I will avail myself of the same ad-
vantage ; referring, however, to nothing which it is not
my intention to produce. ••• I mean to withhold nothing
which will enable this House to judge of the course
which her Majesty's Government has pursued. Captain
Warner stated that he wasin possession of this projectile
called the long range. I will give his own account
of it. He said, "It has a most destructive power, and its
operation can be carried on with rapidity. I could bring
it to bear on Gibraltar. and in a few hours not a man
should be left alive. I could in the highest sea, with my
long range, destroy a large fleet. I could demolish
Algiers—instead of damaging it only, as Lord Exmouth
did with his splendid fleet—with a single vessel ; and
after having demolished Algiers, I could, with a com-
paratively trifling refit, undertake to destroy Toulon."
Now a person in possession of such wonderful powers,
ought not, on account of the apparent impossibility of
the thing, to be set aside. I will treat Captain Warner
on an assumption that all he says is true ; but this I will
not do—l will not undertake to pledge myself to the pay-
ment of a large sum of money, on account of certain
things having been done. I will do this—l will appoint
the most efficient professional men the country can fur-
nish, two or three from each department. I will not require
Capt. Warner to reveal his secret, but *lily to satisfy those
gentlemen of its mode of operation ; they .must be per-
fectly satisfied that all this can be done, and they must
then make a report to the Government, or to me per-
sonally, if Captain Warner does not wish his plan to go
further. This report must be on the following points: first
as to the means of applying the inventions under adverse
circumstances, both of wind and tide ; then as to possi-
bility of making use of it with safety and' security by
those who are possessed of it ; then, as to how long it is
probable the Government would remain in possession of
it after purchasing it. Having received a communica-
tion of this kind on these points, from these authorities,
I shall reserve to myself the power of determining
finally on the question. I do not want to know the
secret, but I want to be assured as to how far it can be
used with safety, and as to how long the Government
could retain it, having purchased it, either for the pur-
pose of applying it, or suppressing it altogether. All this
I want to kpow, but I will not enter into a
blind engagement of the kind wished by my
Noble Friend, that supposing a ship is blown
up off the pier at Brighton, Captain Warner
is to receive several thousand pounds for effecting it. I
will do no such thing, and whatever debates may take
place' in this House on the subject I will not agree to it.
On receiving this communication from my Noble Friend,
I wrote to the Master-General of the Ordnance.; and
desired him to communicate with the Admiralty Board
as to the selection of two gentlemen from their respec-
tive departments for the purpose of forming a commis-
sion. Two officers of high professional character and
personal honour were selected, Sir Thos. Hastings and
Colonel Pasley. Captain Warner objected to both of
them. I said, " Very good, I think`the objection an un-
reasonable one, but that shall not prevent a fair trial of
the experiment." Two other gentlemen were then se-
lected, Sir Howard Douglas and Sir Edward Owen. Sir
Edward Owen was shortly afterwards appointed to a
command in the Mediterranean, and Sir .yam Martin
was chosen to fill his place, and to act with Sir Howard
Douglas. Now, I ask whether it would lave been pos-
sible to commit the experiment to two authorities more
competent to investigate and decide upon it ? I will read
to the House the first communication these gentlemen
made to Captain Warner, and I ask whether it was
possible to enter into an inquiry with fairer justice
or more liberal spirit. The Right Hon. Gentleman
then read the letter, in which the Commissioners stated
that they were required, in the first instance, to ascer-
tain the expense of making the experiment ; that they
proposed to take first the experiment of the powers of
the long range, and then of the practical effect of the
invisible shell ; that, in both instances, the materials
would be prepared on the scale that would be necessary
for real service ; that they proposed to repeat the trial
of the long range six times, and that of the invisible
shell three times ; they requested to know what cannon
or artillery he would require from the Board of Ord-
nance, and if he should want the assistance of any men.
In order to ensure greater secresy, they offered to let
him select his own locality, in the most unfrequented
part of the country, that Would present facilities for
forwarding the experiment. The House will see that I
departed _ from the rule generally observed in these
cases—that those who have professed to have made
discoveries of this kind shall try them in the first
instance at their own expense. If 'that rule was not
enforced, why, the establishment of the Board of Ord-
nance would not be sufficient to attend to the demands
that would be made on it. This very day 'I have received
no less than four proposals, invited probably by the dis-
cussion which has taken place on that of Capt. Warner's
—four persons who have invented instruments each at
least as destruCtive as Capt. Warner's.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) The inventors ask for no remuneration,
but only that the experiment should be performed
at the public expense. But after the speeches that had
been made in this House on the subject, and an exhibi
tion by Captain Warner, I must admit of considerable
power, I thought I would deprive him of., any opportu-
nity of saying I treated the invention with any disre-
spect or ridicule; I therefore offered to bear the ex-
penses of the experiment within reasonable limits.
Captain Warner in his reply said, he did not want any
artillery or cannon, as he effected his object by means
-distinct from any of the weapons of war. But with re-
gard to the reversal of the order of' the experiments, by
taking the long range first, he did not think it right to
depart from the original plan. But he submitted to the
Commissioners whether all expense in the matter might
not be avoided, as he could refer for the success'of his
experiment to the high authority of the Secretary
of the Admiralty, the First Lord of the Treasury,
to the Master-General of the Ordnance, and to his
Noble Friend Lord Ingestre. Why, I never
saw any experiment with the long range. I only saw
the one experiment at Wanstead, and what is the use of
referring at all to first Lords of the Treasury ? I pro-
pose myself to be quite incapable of judging on the sub-
ject, and what I want is the opinion and judgment of
professional men. In reply to this letter of Captain
Warner's, the Commissioners returned a very proper
communication, stating that-they were not appointed tube
referred to the opinions of others, but to judge for them-
selves. Then, as to the point of the expense of purchasing
the invention, in case it succeeded. The Noble Lord says,
made a great min;-statement last year in asserting that
Captain Warner asked 400,0001. for his secret. I hold
in nly.hand a letter from Captain Warner to Lord Hard-
"wicke, in which he demands for the purchase of his in-
visible shells, 200,0001., and 200,000/. for his long range
also. That was the proposal made by Captain Warner
on the 2d of November, 1841, itnmeclietely after the
proposal for the appointment of a Commission, and his
consent to the nomination of Sir Byatn Martin.
The Commissioners asked Capt. Warner to proceed with
the experiments, and they received a reply on the 20th
of April, 1842. In this letter Cap. Warner acknoiv-
ledgealht communication of the commissioners of the

16th, but states that as they said they had no authority.
to fix the amount of his remuneration in case he suc-
ceeded, and as this was the basis of his cngagensent, lie
could not proceed further till they received authority t 0
_
promise him, on the part of the Government, a proper,,
amount of remuneration. He said further, that he might
save them any unnecessary trouble in entering on any
other part of the subject till this obstacle, was
re-
moved. Thus it is evident that the £l.llll of 400,000/.
was required, upon which the Cobruissioners informed
him that there was an end of the Commission, since they_
had no authority to promise any such MIT, or any other
sum beforehand ; that this must ke: left entirely to I.er
Majesty's Government, and they closed the Commission.
After these gentlemen had thrown up the Commission,
Captain Captain Warner said he should be content with any re-
muneration the First Lord of the Treasury might °
him beforeli‘and. He did also submit to some exarnisna-
tion by ' these Commissioners, and he thought a refe-
rence to statue of the questions put to Captain Warner'
and the answers given to them would satisfy the Howethat caution on every point was not misplaced.
The
following questions were put to Captain Warner t-41:1",
long is it since you satisfied yourself of the powers of
your long range, and your invisible shells ?
Warner repties—Twelve years ago with respect to theo
long range, and twenty-seven years ago with regard t
the invisible shells, as he sunk two French privateers _
the end of the war, one off Folkestone, and the other 1.1!
St. Vallery Bay. What was the name of the vessel you
were on board of ? The Nautilus. Such an extraordi"
l ert"
nary circumstance was, of course, reported -co the A
ratty ? No ;it was not reported -we were not tu.
the Admiralty. Then, who was the Nautilus hired by
It was hired by the Secretary of State, and employed 11
Lord Castlereagh in landing spies on the coast of Franc
o•
the destruction of these two vessels reported to P.
Secretary of State ? It might have been, but Ido 00:
know. Was it recorded in the log-book of the Nautilus?
We did not keep a lug-book. Were any of the erew
present when the destruction took place ? No one knew
of it but myself and another. In answer to other goes;
tions, Captain Warner stated that no head-money Wag
claimed for the crew destroyed, and that his father was
the owner of the Nautilus. The Commissioners sent to
the Admiralty to inquire if any record whatever existet_
or correspondence, relating to the destruction of the!
two French privateers, and none mould be found. The
same inquiries were then made at the Foreign-office, but
no record of any such fact existed. The Commissioner'
then asked where was the long range tried ? The all'
swer was, upon some trees, at the distance of three,
' miles in Hainault forest, in the presence °I
Sir Edward Keats. Now, if this were the;
case, why should not Captain Warner nag,'"
the Commissioners as to the mode in which it was fo*
complished? The Commissioners also say, You have Par
titularly spoken of the desolating power of your log
range ; if so, how did you obtain a proof of it ? car
tain arner in reply, stated that he had tried it la
Hainault forest. and on the Blom islands, where there,
were no buildings, but where the power of the instru-
ment shivered several tons of rock. Now other persons
could produce as great effects as this. There were meet
chemical compounds that produced the most violent et"
fects, yet might be handled with perfect safety ; but the
question was, whether it could be applied under diflietl'i:
circumstances, and whether they could be applied wit t
safety by the 'persons using them. We therefore do he
see such advantage in blowing a vessel into the
air, others can do that. So much •for the in-
visible shell. But, above all, they had a curiosity
to see the effects of the long range—a projectile able 10
destroy fort and towns. If they attached a shell to the
tail of a kite, or to a balloon, that would be of no ininer;
tance—there was no ingenuity in that. If they propose'
to convey it in this manner, and drop it into a fortress
s..'that would be useless, for it would be impossible so te
do. But could they project it to the same distance? Les
them show that that was possible. However the exper-
ments came to an untimely end, and before he closed the
:Commission, his Gallant Friend (Sir Byam Martin), ea"
pressed a wish that he might never be asked to try suld,
more experiments, and that if he were asked he shot'.
"positively decline. A debate subsequently took place la
that House, and Captain Warner published a letter on
the subject, not very complimentary to the Government
or to the Committee. But that was no reason why be
should not have a fair opportanity of trying his expert"
meats. On hearing, therefore, that Captain Warnerr, wr,
dissatisfied with the course taken, I wrote again to S'
George Murray, stating that I understood Captain War,
ner was really desirous that the experiment should
fairly tried, and requesting him to confer with the Firs
Lord of the Admiralty as to the selection of two other
officers, not of equal rank with Sir Byam Martin
and
Sir Howard Douglas, but of unblemished character, e.u.,
having every qualification to enable them to judge. Out
,°'
Commission Captain Warner wished to have a nominee
of his own placed, but this the Government decline°.
The Commission, on the other hand, wrote to Captain
Warner that the Government were willing to bear LI
expense, but proposed that one of the Commission should
be on board the steam-boat employed by Captain
Warner; but to this Captain Warner positively ev
jected. They said they could not form a satisfactorft
judgment unless they were on board the steamer; buo•
still they would waive that objection, and they called °/
him for an estimate of the expense to be incurred.
said before I would not enter into a blind engagement to
..
pay hundreds of thousands of pounds; all we wept.
was, that the Commissioners should watch the mode '1-
which Captain Warner proceeded, and to report there'
suit of their observations to the Government. 130118 ~,
the first instance, we wanted to have an estimate of
expense necessary for the experiment, and a letter i'/'".„,
written to Captain Warner for an estimate of the ex-
pense. Captain Warner replied that he would WO'
2,6371. for the invisible 'shell, and 2,4701. for the long
range, making a sum of 5,1071 altogether. Our wish
was to see the experiment with the long range, and we,
said we did not mind the invisible shell, but we wishe`:
to have the long range tried, after what had been state;;
as having been done at St. Vallery Bay, Hainau:
forest; and the, Mom Island. We proposed to
him 6001 in the first instance, and then to watch the
i
progress of the experiment. Captain Warner objects,
to this, saying that 5001. was not enough but still Pa
would consent to try the experiment for' that sum, an
try to make up the remaining sum, which would be O;
cessary, from amongst his friends. After a certain
period, he intimated that it was impossible to aim
ti
the experiment, as he could not find friends who 'Wewd
bear. the remaining expense. Thus the matter close
without any experiment, and the relations between.tb,
aj
Government and Captain Warner ceased. We depee'rtf;
from the ordinary rule in this instance of advareciiiru't'L
public
the lon money to try this experiment. :I!4;e,wzorteo
have g range tried first ; and I do not think 'f
would be consistent with the dusty imposed on ,us_ ()
guarding the public puree ligainst all unneccessarl,'n-e,.
pense, we were to enter into engagements for advtw,-;
in; a considerable sum—l will not say 400,0004
200,0001. or 300,000/.—depending upon a contingeal
which could not be foreseen.—(Hear, hear.) Laate,
opinion that the Treasury, and all the other dept
pe-L,
ments, have acted with the greatest fairness and li`co
rality towards Captain Warner ; and I hope the flit
will be of the same opinion. I must say that notb,"'l „
will induce me, from the experience which I have ha
with regard to inventors, and in respect to Capt. Walter
to consent to enter into an engagement to pay
400,0001., or 100,000/., upon a certain - vessel being ".1,
stoyed.—(Hear, hear.) I will first know the mode,l
which it is destroyed. I will know the value of the dig
covey), by which it is destroyed, and the power of P"
venting the use of it by others—all these effects IW,
know before I consent, on the part of the public, thavis
large 'sum of money be advanced ; and I hope that
House will not sanction a departure from that prineiPt„
seeing the importance which every inventor attachesAs
his own invention, and that on every hand densa_a%
would be made on the public money on similar groev-0
(Hear, hear.) Before I sit down I must refer to ees'
additional *evidence in this matter. In answer to a queer
Lion which had been put to Capt. Warner as to whe"'-we
ordinary ships would answer his purpose, or whether id
would require a certain 'description of vessels, he se
that there should be vessels fitted for •
purpose in every fleet." They said, " T:oe"
you propose to instruct persons in the r°,„*" ke
rials you propose to employ ? • This will L_w-be
the secret known ; and how many
persons will inschat
necessary to employ in each fleet?" He said "
one man in the fleet should be in the secret." Thus -0
Government would lose the secret unless they ges
400,000/. to every person who became acquainted rot
it, unless Captain Warner could Suggest some neoenir
keeping it.secret which did not occur to the Corateer,
sioners. This had been signified to Captain Warutse
and he replied that no person need know it butex,)
Prime Minister and one manufacturer.—(Laugh
Now I protest against being in the secret with set is
—(Laughter.) I don't think the secret could If it
worse hands than in those of the Prime Minister. be-
became necessary to prevent other Powers frote coming aware of it, and converting it to hostile Po rot
poses, and that it was a sine qua
non that the senat
should be entrusted to somebody, he then:yea
that that responsibility ought not to be tbribat
on the Prime Minister. To the objection
torer
another would divulge the secret, Captain "-Of
said he did not think any Englishman would (Ito*
such thing. They replied. " You are an
.English'
and you want to sell it." Ile said. " I want to niToble
the secret to my country." I am sorry that let jot°
Friend has imposed on me the necessity of entering/or. '
these details, I think we have not treated Captaiar,haff
ner's discovery without due respect and regard. 4044
entered into all these details for the purpose of suibutio
that the House of Commons is not the proper tr
for trying this matter, and that it should not be evout.
tuted into a court of appeal from the Govern` with
Captain Warner or his offers have not been treated or
disrespect, and I think the House will see, from bee
respondence which has passed, that Captain' Weriliebretiug
had the fullest opportunity given to him of ell COI' •
his " invisible shell" and " long range," and
of the
Warner has failed to do so, it is not the feu' tot be
Government or of the Commission—the fault to ot4
ascribed to Capt. Warner, who failed to perforal
' he had undertaken.—(Heate hear.) ourebl:
Mr. COWPER said that the Right 11°b,s th
Gentleman had clearly shown to the House that re'
present Government had performed its duty_rooeu*
gard to this matter.--(Hear, hear.) The Governs the
had done all that lay in their power in ord!rwiseed t°
experiment might be fairly tried. He ouliof any"
say that the late Government were not guilty °f
rs
glect on their part, for that when Captain WrNohi Via'
his proposition to Lord Melbourne, the .iian ought r
count said it was not a matter in which a eivt4l Warne
to be called to decide, and he referred Caeto. to 00",,,."
to Adtniral Sir W. Parker, who was unwil_tP,:iseiour.
mine into the question himself, and he got V_..e inqub'e..l"
have another Lord of the Admiralty with '
leill6,o°°l'
into the matter. Captain Warner required cosepe_.,
fore he proceeded with his test, and (o.'ll Teeasori
remarked, Capt. Warner preferred going to tLlurds,
rather than to the Admiralty or Ordnance
.uestio_ufe
that he always treated the subject more aster.
money than as gciglitific

,uthority,
he sue-
cent,
tority to
a proper
he might
on any

was re-
-400,000L
Informed
nee they
n 3. other
Y to her
mission.

IwiS,iOD+