The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-15 00:00:00

LONDON,

rrovided they would not avail themselve3 of that indul-
gence to leave the island. That was thankfully accepted
by three of the convicts. but it was positively refused by
the relative of the i lon. Gentleman. The Governor, act
ing in conformity with instructions which he had received,
placNi. the Hun. Gentleman's relative on a part of the
island appropriated to the reception of convicts, but
assigned him separate apartments. He was of course
Oen) as a convict, not thinking that a ticket of leave was
worth acceptance, he (Sir G. Grey) regretted to say;
but he had had communication both with the bishep
with the chaplain, and other persons, and every
indulgence bad been shown him, consistent with
the painful duty which the Governor had to
discharge.—(Dear, hear.) And he (Sir George Grey)
thought if any complaint was to be brought against the
Governor, it was for showing more indulgence in this
case than be was entitled to show.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard to a relaxation as to his treatment, he (Sir G.
Grey) only knew it from a communication which he had
received trom the Hon. Member; but he (Sir G. Grey)
had no doubt that if the health of the Hen. Memb..r
relative was likely to be endangered, that such relaxa
Lion would take place as was aceordel in similar cases.
Mr. GRATTAN said this unfortunate gentleman was
a countryman of his ; and he (Mr. Grattan) knew of no
law for imposing torture on a mars in this country. This
was a question of humanity, and he hoped the Govern
men; would treat it as such. This unfoit,ina.e gentle-
man had not been allowed to buy tea, or coffee, or cloth-
ing, and his present treatment wus worthy the country
whcee Priwy Council relused to allow Bonaparte the
luxury of a pianoforte when incarcerated a' St. Helena.
THE UNIVERSITIES COMMISSION.
Mr. HEADLAM wished to ask the light lion.
Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford
whether it was his intention to bring before the house
hesubject 0, Commission fur the Univer-
st
iti
eson
the of h
a dti±e p u
rLopdebate?o-
d

Mr. GLADgTONE said that the debate was adjourned
on the motion of the Member for Plymouth, and he was
the person most proper to apply to on the subject.
FACTORIES-BILL.
The House then proceeded to consider the amendments
to this Bill.
Lord J. MANNERS presented petitions from several
places in Lancashire and Cheshire praying the House to
pass this Bill in its integrity.
Sir G. GREY then proposed, as an additional clau'e,
after section 5, to the effect, that every young person,
and every female above the age of 18 years, who shall
be employed in any factory,
or shall be allowed to
remain in any roam where any manufacturing process is
then carried on ifs any'itetory during any part of the
times which by the notice then ,fixed up in such factory
in that behalf are mentioned as the times allowed for
meals, shall be deemed to, be employed contrary to the pro-
visions of the said recited Acts as amended by this Act.
Agreed to.
Lord ASHLEY proposed the following amendments:
—l'. 2, 1.12, Etter the word " Act," to insert " no child."
Same page, 1. 16, after the words "provided and," to
insert "no child."

Sir G. GREY opposed the amendments. He contended
that the present Bill had nothing. to do with children.
It was merely a 811 t) carry out the ♦ery Bill
which had been introduce) by the Noble Lord himself.
The effect of the amendment of the Noble Lord would
be to place a material restriction on the working of the
machinery in factories, because it was impossible to carry
on the usual operations in those establishments without
having recourse to the-labour of women and young chil-
dren, and the amendment would limit the hours during
which they were employed, further than was the me at
present. On these grounds, ho should oppose the pro-
position of the Noblr, Lord.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the amendment. He
was not only anxious to bruit the period during which
women and young persons were engaged i❑ factories.
but al,o to prevent them beginning labour at too early
an hour in the mornipg, or leaving off at too lets an hour
in the evening.

„
Mr. S.'CRAWFORD considered that any Bill which
called a child. up trona ita bed at half-past tour, was a Bill
which ought not to receive the sanction of the House.

Mr. BRIGHT wish.d toplace before the House what
would be the practical effect of this proposition. If the
Noble Lord understood the effects, be thought that he
would be the lust person to propose these amendments.
When an alteration was formerly made in the law re-
garding the hours of working f children the effect had
been that many hundreds of children had been driven
from factory employment. It they pursued that course,
as was now proposed, that none should work before six
in the morning and wter six at night, the corsequences
would be that still more would be driven from it. It
was not a question which very materially affcted
the interest of empl Teti so much as the children, and he
thought it desirable that the House should be made aware
of the effect of the,e amendments.
Mr. ED WARDS said that in his part of the country,
Halifax, it was unusual there to find a child unemployed,
and many of them were getting as much as 51. a week.
Sir H. WILLOUGEIRY said he would be glad to
know what the effect of this amendment would be on the
adult labour of the manufacturing districts.
Mr. TATTON EGER lON said that the effect of this
amendment would be entirely to restrict the moving
power of adult labour, and he asked the House if they
were prepared to do this ?
Mr. ELLIOT was of the same opinion, and he be-
lieved that this atnendnaen was nothing more than a
blow by a aide-wind at adultlabour, which hitherto had
not been sought to beinterfered with.
Mr. HUME.asked if the Rouse were in a condition to
limit, as was proposed by this amendment, the working
of the machinery of the country to eight or•nine hours?
He deprecated any attempt to interfere with the labour
of the working man; under the pretence of removing
a pressure from the people they would divert the capital
of the country, on the employment of which the
working classes were wholly dependent, since it gave
them the means of employment and subsistence.—(Loud
cries of " Divide.")
LOrd ROBERT GROSVENOR denied that this
amendment interfered with the labour of the people; it
was only meant to protect children from being over-
worked.

Mr. W. J. FOX said the great body of the operative-
ef this country would hail this measure as a
great boon, notwithstanding that it was so vehe-
mently opposed by the maaufacturing capitalists.
He denied that this Bill meant to prevent
the factory operatives of this country labouring for a
longer period than they desired to do. If it was true
that the operatic es had beets misled or overawed, the
Government had the power to ascertain the fact, and
to find out their real opinions. This had, indeed, been
done, and the result was, that 50 per cent were in favour
of ten hours, 25 per cent. in favour of 12 hours, and 12 or
13 per cent: in favour of 11 hoUrs. He believed
that the choice had therefore fallen on a Ten Hours Bill.
It was of the greatest possible importance that children
should be protect. d against excessive labour, and that they
should not be prevented having the advantage of educa-
tion by being kept employed to a late hour in the
evening.
After a few words from Mr. BROWN and Mr. SPANS.
FIELD, who were not heard in the gallery, owing to the
impatience o, the House to have a division,
The House then divickd, when there appeared—
For Lord Ashley's amendment 159
Against it ss- 160
Mejority against the amendment 1
The result was received with loud cheers by the
members in favour of the. Noble Lord's amendment.
On re-entering the gallery we found
Lord J. MANNERS addressing the House in support
of the amendment of which he had' given notice, for the
purpose of limiting still more the hoUrs of labour in the
case of women and young persons. Disguise the ques-
tion before them as they might, its real import was,
would the Parliament of England refase to the working
peop`e of this country a boon which they had on a former
occasion freely accorded to them? That was tee real
question upon which they had to decide, and Heaven send
that the decision of English gentlenen upon it might be
in accordance with English honesty and English honour!
From what had recently passed in that House one would
hsy thought that such a thing had never happened be-
rore, as that it was necessary to amend in one session of
Parliament an Act passed in the preceding one; but every
gentleman knew thar, such things were not of rate oc-
currence. The House would remember that
in 1846,
when Parliament had determined to abrogate all the
laws imposing duties on the importation of grain, it was
discovered towards the close of the session that, owing to
an inaccuracy in the Bill, a fixed duty for a limited
period was left on beans and peas. 'The time for which
the duty could be raised was so ,limited, that it was not
thought worth while to pass a distinct Act reme lying
the defect; but let it be suppOshel that, instead of a ver-
bal inaccuracy, affecting only the import of beaus and
peas for a limited peeled, it had been discovered a year
or two after that there were conflicting decsiOns in the
inferior courts on the subject, and that it was decided by
one of the supreme courts thatnot only beans and peas,
but every kind of cereal product,e, but for ever, what
would have to pay a
fixed duty, not fur a limited time,
then would have been -the language of the Right Hen.
-
the Member for Tamworth, and the Hon. Member for
the West Riding ? They would at once have insisted
upon a remedy being introduced. But
what would have
been thought if they (the Protectionists) had turned
round and thrown every obstacle in the
way of repairing
the blunder ?—(Hear, hear.) Yet such a course would
not have been more blameable than
that pursued by
Geatlemen opposite with respect to the Factory
and
(Hear.) In point of principle, whet was the difference
between the proposition of the Ministry and that to which
thety n•
we
n Ge e poorntens a n
the friendless, he had alluded? But in the one case the parties were
powerful, in the other h
and could appeal to nothing but the honour and justice
of the House of Commons. The Noble Lord then referred
to the opinion of the Might
for Ripon, and to the last factory report, and other au-
thorities to show that it was the intention of the framers
of the Act of 1844 that the working by shifts practised
A.
under the ..t of 1833 should be prevented, and
that it should be virtually a Ten Hours fill. The Noble
Lord the Dilernber for Bath; when his introduced his Mea-
sure, had brought forward a conclusive chain of evidence
as to the beneficial working of the Tel 'fours Bill; yet, as
Son. r
Member
he (Lord J. Manners) understeod it was the intention of
the Honourable Member for Manchester to give reasons
to show that the statement of his Nohlt, Friend were er-
roneou., he thought it right to confirm those statements
by evidence which he thought could admit of no dis-
pute. He should not quote from the st itements of men
tal enthusiasts, but from the calmopinions recorded its
a gentleman
•. t o
37 capable of firming an opinion, and
inclined from his position to take a view hostile to the
Act of 1844.
He would. ref-r to the statement of the
spacial commissioner of the. Morning Chronicle sleet .lows
to the manufacturing districts to report on the condition
of the people. Speakine of the Ten Hours Bill, that
gentleman said be found one point utmost uniformly
conceded, and which was wrongly verified by his own
observation, that the best conducted workmen in each
mill were thoee" who were most earliest for the Ten
Hours Bill, and as to the females, the testimony was
Universal that it was one of the greatest boons that had

been granted. That opinion was corroborated by
every report from the literary itaseectars, Ist every
I,etition presented to the House, and particularly by
the remarkeble petition he had himself present - d
from the managers and overlookers of milli in Rochdale
and • Halifax. Thu same thing was also stated in a peti-
tion presented from 387 overllookers in Manchester.
Mr. Sender,: also qua te& as a satisfactory- proof of the
beneficial operation of tha- Act, the increased power it
had given to the working people in Yorkshire to obtain
smell plots of ground, and to cultivate little gardens for
their own use. Then, if such were the beneficial results
of the Act of 1847 on the condition of the manufac-
turing population—if their toil had been lightened,
their means of obtaining education greatly increased—
the comforts of thousands of heroes promoted by the cul-
tivation of the soil, perhaps the purest and most -simple
of enjoyments permitted to the dwellers upon earth, he
would ask whether it had been accomplished by any
great sacrifice on the part of the master manufacturers.
roe asserted that such was net the case, and he would
refer, as a proof of it, to almost every speech delivered from
tie Manches.er benches opposite on every debate during
the present ses.ion on the condition of the c. untry.
flies had told the House that never in their memory
was trade so brisk, or the interest of the manufacturing
districts placed on so safe and se :we a has, ; atel yet
ne suppased they would now say if 'his great
boon was not taken away from the factory worker
the employers would be aucrified on the shrine of a mock
humanity. But the factory workers would not, he
thought, be disposed to attach much weight to prophe-
cies of teat kind. They had been, in the last twenty
years, too sell accustomed to such prophecies to put
much faith in them. If Hon. Gentlemen opposite said,
" We admit that the manufacturing interest is flaurishing
sed medio in Joule lepoi um surgit amari quod
ipsis in ftoribus (ingot' "—if these Cassandras of Staley-
bridge nould say that the weal or woe of the manufac-
turing intereata of Yorkshire and Lancashire depended
upon this half-hour he would take leave to doubt the
value of that assertion. Hon. Gentlemen opposite might
speak of American competition, but let the House con-
sider what that American competition we". It was
either a bugbear or a sad and stern reality; if it were the
former let the House disregard it; if the latter, could
any gentleman think that this solitary half-hour would
enable the master manufacturers successfully to re-
sist it? He dismissed, then, the assumption that the
Act of 1847 had worked ill, and would assert that
its effect had been beneficial to the working
people, and not detrimental to the masters. If in-
dse t any doubt were entertained on the subject, he
would refer to a petition in favour of the Ten Hours Bill
which bad been presented to that House, and which wag
signed by a number of the master manufacturers in
Lancashire employing a great number of workmen. In
the opinion of a great body of the master manufacturers,
their interests were not sacrificed in continuing the boon
which every one admitted had been conferred on the
working people. As to any advantage that this Bill
would confer on the working people, let him ask what
was the advantage in taking from them two hours a
week? What was the compensation which dignified
this measure by the name of a compromise? It was
said that the object of it was to prohibit women and
evening,youn
gpebrsuotnshefrwomould workingappeal
t aftero a
nsix m
ao'clockconversant with the manufacturing districts whether,
after the decision in the Court of Exchequer, in 99
n practically lnh
te
cases out of 100, women and young persons did not
leave off their work at half-past five and not six?
In those cases, therefore, the boon now proposed was not
a boon, but was an addition of half-au-hour's work.
It was true that when the Government proposal was
first marie, sedulous attempts were male to induce the
working people to believe that the effec-, of this Bill
would to to make them leave the mills at six o'clock.
and prevent adults working after that hour. But now
his Noble Friend had learnt, he doubted not with regret
and indignation, that neither was such the effect of the
Bill nor the intention of Ministers, and he thought his
Noble Friend had some reason is complain of a want of
ingenuousness on the part of Ministers, who permitted
his Noble Friend and their advocates in the papers and
their daily organ the Times newspaper, to promise the
working pe ,ple that such would be the result of the mea-
sure, that the moment the clock struck six every mill
would necessarily be closed ; and now, after two divi-
sions, it turned out that the Government never did in-
tend that such should be the result of their measure.—
(dear, hear.) They had it, therefore, established now
that under this Bill mills might bc worked by adult
males and young children until half-past eight o'clock
and so the sole boon conferral on the working people was
that in 99 csses out of 100 women and young persons
would be compelled to work half-an•hour longer than at
the present moment. But, it might be said, why make
such a strife for so small an object as halt-sri-hour? He
should have thought that half-an-hour taken from the
working people against their wishes, agiiinst their ad-
mitted rights, against their intention, would not have
been re,arded as a light or trivial matter. He knew
with what feelings the working people and the clergy
and gentry in these districts regarded this proposidon
of the Government. Let him refer to the statement
of the committee of managers, overlookers, carders,
spinners, and other branches of factory work in Bolton.
on this point.: The committee said that during this half-
hour, if taken from the , working people, they would
learn this lesson—they would regard the matter as a
violation of their Magna Charta, and would look upon
the Legislature as the invaders of their ceded rights and
the detraudeis of the working classes. It was not the
way to form loyal and loving subjects. He would not
quote the language of the working men, justly indig-
nant at this invasion of the rights of their wives and
children, but he entreated the House to listen to the
calm opinion of calm men, delivered solemnly to the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, telling him
Vat in Preston, and generally throughout Lancashire, it
was essential, in order to carry out the principle that
led to the Ten Hours Bill, that the hour of half-past five
should remain unchanged for the cessation of work; that
evening schools were generally established, and that
the young factory hands attended them with much be-
nefit; that they were open from *even to nine, but that
unless the children left the factory by half-past five they
could not refresh and clean themselves so as to be at
school by seven, and that if the schools were interfered
with it would be productive of much injury. That
statement was signed by the clergy of Preston, and he
found that their opinion was shared by the vicar of Brad-
ford, the vicar of Leeds, than whom no person knew
better the practical working of this measure, and by the
r vicar of Bingley. This half-hour was, in fact, nearly a
forth part of the time appropriated to the improvement
of the rising generation of the factery workers; and he
would ask those who were so interested in the spread
of education, and who were so anxious to bring
before that House Bills for the establishment of public
libraries and museums, how they could reconcile it with
their own profesetensi, and he doubted. not their own
earnest conviction% to take away, agiinst the intentions
of tee Legislature and the wishes of the people, a fourth
part of the time devoted to the religious, mural, and in-
tellectual improvement of the great body of the working
people of this country. But he would be told he did not
take into consid-ration the great boon of half-an-hour
offered by the Government on the Saturday. He bad
considered it, and, so far from regardine it as a boon, he
thought it was productive of no insignificant evil, and
when the House bore in mind that the factory people on
tahiledi r tzkest
reflected
ti
,whichtat
under was
tc
hm, tt ei
Saturday worked four hours and a half continuously and
then went to dinner, and afterwards returned to the mills
l
on all hands to be the most severe, the hardest, and most
Go-
vernment measure they would have to work five hours
thata!l their t toil,o
continuously on Saturday, and, then tinrefreshed, and with.
out having their dinner, would go to the most severe of
ethxeertnolr'rking.hours of labour, he thought the House would
to performmof
agree with:him, that so far from tbis half-hoard:wino light
or trivial matter, it was a most serious arid crying evil.
Na Englishman liked to work upon an empty stomach,
aTdyetnigt longer n
aosnowproposed that these people should
workl loSaturday, when ;their labour was most
severe, without their meal. It-was indeed a compromise
of nothing, unless it were the rights of the people and
the honour of Parliament. Were he a political sap-
porter of the Government, he should regret the course
they had taken; even on partisan and political grounds,
but as an opponent of their political policy, he did regret
it on national considerations.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
it was not well that any portion of the working people
of this country should be taught by the sworn maintainers
of the law and order that wealth was more powerful
than justice, and that agitation, more formidable
than the secret pressure of associated millowners, was
required to procure from the executive Government
the sapction of Parliament to the admitted rights
of the people. The Act which it was now proposed
virtually to. repeal was granted to the people with the
deliberate consent of all branches of the Legislature, and
was ratified in a peculiarly solemn manner by the special
approbation of that gracious lady who reigns over us.
Was it well that the Government shOuld invite the House
to come to a vote that should compel her Majesty to re-
turn int.) the hands of the working people that testimo-
nial which she had been so graciously pleased to accept
from them?—(Hear, hear.) Upon the reverse of that
medal, purchased by the pence of her toiling subjects,
and cherished, as he knew, by her Majesty as one of the
net least glorious of the many trophies attached
to the imperial crown she wore, were inscribed the
words, " The Ten Hours Bill."—(Hear.) Was it well
that the Ministers, the confidential advisers of that So-
trereign, should ask the House now to come to a vote
which should render that precious medal a rant mean-
ingless coin, or, if it meant anything, that it shoud be a
memorial of the inconstancy of Parliament, of the
levity or fickleness of the Government, or of the
folly of the people that would confide in either?
Let not the House come to a decision) oni this
question with their eyes closed. Let not Members
flatter themselves that, by rejecting the amendment,
they would settle the question, and put an end to agita-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) Did those who had a dread of
professional agitators and demagogues, and wished to re-
move all the materials of seditious agitation, imagine
that they would attain their object by ad,iing two hours
to the toil of a great body of the working classes?—
(Heim, hear.) Was there a S ,cielist or Chartist, dissa-
tisfied with the institutions and forms of government es-
rablished in this country, who would not point exult-
ingly to Parliamentary fickleness, levity, subserviency to
wealth, and indifference to the claims and rights of the
pier? They would-point to the vote of the Elouse, and

" Hoc Ithacus velit, et magno mercentur Atridte."
Depend on it, that by editing the course recommended
by the Governtuent, the House would place arms in the
hands of those men, and arguments in their mouths;
and this would be the rewlt t7f what wai Jesuitically
recommended as a settlement of the question!—(year,
M4ist earnestly did he deprecat? that result,
and invited the Rouse to wen the thratc fling mischief.
It farther evidence were necessary to just f. the course
which he recommended, it might be fiund in a
d Aeration which the Honourable Mt-natter for Mau-
chest.r made, after the Tars Hour* Act pAssk d, to a
deputation of millownars, who waited ou thew for the

purpose of,as,ertaining whether there wes any chuntte of
obtaining a 12, 11, or even hours Bill. Upon
that occasion the ,M,mbers tor -Manchester declared
that so strong was the feeling of the ;louse of e‘itti
o-
mns that it was pled t i
tic Ten Hours Bill that t
was impossible f,.•r them to hold out the stnall.ou ext,cc-
tation that any one of thee propositions would b..;
adopted. lie hop-d that the -Rom Members for 111.-
chestor would prove eipr,ect exprodits of the holing W.
the House.—(lle•sr, hear.) At any rate he invited the
House to redrem the pledge which they had given, and
t prove to the working people of this country that they
attached more value to the declared intentions of an Act
of Parliament, to the claims and righte of the working
people, and.to the beneficial working of the Act which
her Majesty bad sanctioned, than they did to the back-
stairi influence and coffee-house, combinations of any set
• f associated milli,wners.—(l-Te4r, bear.) He eppealed
the,sncient spirit of English honour in vindication o'
the right.—the admitted rights—of English labour; h-
appealed to the House to show thi,t they ^ere rod, only
n name. but in very, deed and reality, the represewa
rives of the Commons of Eogland —(Loud cheers.)
rhe. Noble Lord coneludtd by m •ving the followim:
atuemitneryst—ln clause 1, line 14. that the word "six"
bit twitted for the purpose of iiiserting the words " b
past five;" and in line 18, that the word " two" be
mnitt-d, for the purpose of inserting the words "haif.paet
three."

Mr. HORNBY expressed his regret that the suppoite
era of the Ten Hoins Act were no longer led by the
N ‘ble Lord the Member for Bath, though that regret
was somewhat diminished at finding their torwer leader
had found a most able seccessor in the Noble Lord who
had just addressed the House.—(Hear.) At the same
time he feared that the des* rtion rf the cause by the
Noble Member for Bath would cause it to los, the sup-
port of a large number of votes in that House. The
operatiws were much indebted to the N-ble Member for
Bath tor his formers xertions in their b: half, and it was
only to be regretted that he had not given notice in suf-
ficient time of his ituentiou to abandon the tea hours
clause. The Legislature had now the advantage of ex-
perience in favour of the ten hours clause, for all the
predictions of evils to result from it had been falsified,
whilst all the premises of good to follow from its adop-
tion had been verified.— (Hear.) The Hon. Member for
'Manchester once declared that if provisions were re-
duced in price the working classes would be as well off
by working ten hours ai they then were after working
twelve, and at another time he said that if the corn-!awe
were repealed the masters and their workpeople would
come to an agreement about the hours of labour.
How did the Honourable Member reconcile those
statements with his recent declaration, that the
masters were so annoyed by the legal restric-
tions imposed on them that they were resolved not to
consult the comfort of the persons they employed ?
(Hear, hear.) .The Hon. Member accused the supporters
of the 10 hours clause with being actuated by 'gum ant
sentimentalism;. but certainly no one would charge the
Hon. Member with acting under the influence of senti-
ment of any kind.—(Hear, hear.) In 1844, during a
critical state of parties, and when the members of Ile.,
present Government sat on the Opposition benches, Sir
R. Peel being Premier, the present Firat Lord of the
Treasury said:—
" He was much struck with the statement of the Hon.
Member for Leeds, that, out of 70 owners of mills. 40
were ready to adopt 10 hours, and had signed a petition
to that effect. Now, when they were told of the alarm
which existed (and he believed alarm did exist) at their
legislation on that subject, was it not something to be
urged in support of the principle, that practised men,
who, it might be thought, ought naturally to have op-
posed it, were nerdy to adopt the proposition? It was
a difficult thing to inrerrere with toil, but the time was
come when he thought they ought to do so. And if he
were called upon to point out another measure of relief,
it would be that which would allow of a greater supply
of food ; thus insurieg the double boon of diminished
labour and increased enjoyment of the necessaries of lite."
On the same occasion the present Secretary for the
Home Department said:—
" They should look to the reasonable wishes of the
great body of operatives, and sti,proaett ten hours
gradually; that they were fully competent to take a ju,t,
view of the question; that they had admitted to him
that they expected a reduction of wages, but that the
evidence then preponderated in favour of ten home."

The Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet, supported
by eight other Members of the present Government,
voted against the then Gevernment upon the question,
end put. it in a minority of eight. I: the Noble Lord
and the Hight Hon. Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment wished to escape the imputation of being actuated
in 1844 by facious and part. motives, they must state
the grounds on which they were now prepared to aban-
don the policy they then alvocated.—(Rear. heir.)
Whether the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet
sere governed by the private iefluence and advice to
which they were subjected from those who sat behind
them he knew not, but the House and the country had a
right to be informed of the grounds on which the opera-
tives were to be deprived of the boon which . the Legis-
lature had conferred on them. In conclusion, the Hon.
Member called upon the House to support the amend-
meats proposed by the Noble Member for Colchester, if
it wished to maintain its honour and good faith.—(Hear.)
Sir G. GREY hoped the House would not adopt the
amendment of the Noble Lord, and he hoped further
that it would not decide in ignorance of its effects end
bearings. If anybody had come suddenly into the
House, and had heard only the speeches of the Noble
Lord the -Member for Colchester and of the Hon.
Member who hid followed him, they would be quite igno-
rant of the real merits of the question. Having stated
what the members of the present Government sail in
1844, the Hon. Gentleman said he could not understand
their gross inconsistency. But when the lion. Gentle-
man spoke to him (Sir George Grey) of having given a
vote in deference to the secret advice of the Hun. :11ene-
ber for Manchester, he must take leave to remind the
lion. Gentleman that when professing to contrast the
vote he (Sir G. Grey) had then given with the vote he
was now about to eive, he had omitted to state one im-
portant fact—namely, that when in office in 1847 he had
given effect to that vote by supporting the Bill then
brought forward.-e(Elear, hear.) In taking the course
they were now adopting he contended that the Govern-
ment was doing nothing in contravention of the Act of
1847, but on the contrary that they were doing that
which they believed would secure the attainment of those
objects to a far greater degree than they could be se-
cured by any.other mode; and above all with the cordial
concurrence and consent of the milloweieg interest in
that country. And he had certainly always contended
that it was most desirable for the interests of all parties
that any settlement that was come to should be made
with the combination and concurrence of the millowners
and great body of the operatives. Notwithstanding the
strong terms and violent language of the Noble Lord,
who had thought proper to come down to that House
prepared to denounce it, he had the best possible rea,on
to believe and the best possible evidence that the Bill
before the House would secure to the operative,: the be-.
netits intended by the Legislature in a greater degree
than they had ever enjoyed them before. One word with
regard to the charge insinuated by the Noble Lord that
the Government were mere shields to carry on the secret
councils of the milloavuers and of the Hon Member for
Manchester—he could assure the House and the Noble
Lord that he had never refused to see any parties in
connexion with the subject, and that both himself and
his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) had had more
interviews with the delegates and factory operatives,
and had devoted more time to discussing the question
with then:, than with the millowners. They had had au
opportunity of clearly stating their views, which he be-
lieved to he honest hut mistaken, and it was nut in the.
absence..of due communication with them that they had
adopted the course now before the House.. The Noble
Lord had spent a great deal of time in arguing that toe
errorin the Bill was a mere clerical mistake, and when
such occurred that an Act, was passed as a matter of
course, to give effect te the original intention. But the
question was was it a mere clerical error? why, it tureed
upon the construction that could be legally given to the
Act of 1844. If it bad been only a clerical mistake, it
would have been long ago corrected. • All parties were
anxious to have the decision of a court of law upon the
disputed point; that decision was at length obtained,
arid, being adverse to the operatives, the Noble Lord
the Member for Bath asked leave to bring in. a Bill to
carry the intentions of Parliament into effect, He (Sir
G Grey) pointed out the difficulties the. Noble Lord
was likely to encounter in the progress of his mea-
sure; but neither himself nor any of the meni-
hers of the Government offered any opposition
to it. The Noble Lord theta, finding that his Bill
did not carry the intention of Parliament into effect,
asked leave to have it. committed pro forma, then with-
drew it, and introduced another, which it was found
would be equally 'inoperative. He (Sir G. Grey) had
been in communication with the fae'ory inspectors and
Others, and they assured him that the Bill was equally
open to evasion as the other. He had then interposed
himself, and the plan he proposed was admitted by the
Noble Lord to be decidedly preferable to any other fur
carrying out the intentions of the Act of 1847. and his
Noble Friend who had been traduced that night—(Hear,
hear)—by an Hon. Gentleman who called him a deserter
from the cause, and by the Noble Lord who said that he
experienced a feeling of shame standing in the place of
the Noble Lord the Member for. Bath—had, he (Sir G.
Grey) maintained, been throughout the faithful and,
some might say—although he would not say so—the too-
zealous adroCate of she rights of the factory operatives.
—(Hear, hear,) That Noble Lerd saw at once the ad-
vantages his Act Was likely to confer upon the working
classes, and said at once he would surrender his Bill,
and piece the matter in the hands of the Government.—
(Elear.) Certainly, taking the Noble Lord's amendment
as it was now proposed, they would be able to secure,
arithmetically, 5i hours instead of six; but they
would do away with the intention of the Acts of 1844
and 1847, which gave the millowners a range of fifteen
hours during which their ten hours might be taken. If
the millowner wanted to evade the law, instead of giving
the hands one hour and a hell' for meals, he might say
that he would give them three hours, and thus keep the
hands at the mill one hour and a half later than half-
past five, at which hour under the present measure they
would be relieved. Now, the Noble Lord the Mee:ber
for Bath, seeing the advantages of his (Sir G. Grey's)
preipo,itton, hail acted as he believed for the benefit of
the operatives, arid left the matter in his hands, and be
must say that he (Sir G Grey) was not ashamed, wider
ouch circumstances, to be subjected to the charge of its-
consis!ency. It was asserted by the Noble , Lord the
Member for Colchester that if the present measure
Passed it would take away frem the eperatives the
benefit of the Act of 1844 and the Act of 1847. lie de-
nted that ut%erly. The great advantege of his psopesi-
tion was, that the operatives had their evenings seater: d -
to them from six o'clock for recreation and ionProv''mtehe'rr
Il m
is much was c !in, th.-4t if they .elopted any
alteration, whatever strictness they mighs in t rod.o rith:
millowners would be able to make ''r
that would deprive the opPratives of the advarriTtilf:es
Nohle the
Legislature intor.dt-d they shoulde►,joy.
Ford had complaiuod of the hardship or allowing the t