The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-19 00:00:00

be unnecessary ; and if it were not adopted his Gallant
Friend could, if he would postpone it now, bring it for-
ward as a distinct proviso on bringing up the report ;
and if his lion. and Gallant Friend would make a slight
alteration in the wording of the clause he would consent
to his proposition. But he thought it best that the pro-
position of the Hon. Member for Westmoreland should
be first decided, as it was a most important proposition,
and worthy of most attentive consideration.
Mr. WAKLEY supported the "amendment.
Colonel WOOD, at the suggestion, of Sir J. Graham,
postponed his amendment till the bringing up a the
report.
The clause as amended was then agreed, to.
On clause 58 being proposed, which related to the
appointment of paid auditors by parishes under local
Acts,

Mr. HOGG moved that the parishes of St. George,
St. Pancras, Marylebone, and St. James's, should be
excluded from the provisions of the clause.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that if he could be satisfied
that an independent audit under Sir John Hobhouse's
Act was secure, then he should say the present clause
was superfluous and unnecessary as regarded those
parishes.
Sir C. NAPIER did not think that barristers were
fit persons to be appointed auditors. The system adopted
in the parish of Marylebone with respect to the appoint-
ments of auditors had worked in the best possible man-
ner. He moved that the Chairman do report progress.
Sir B. HALL said that he had paid a good deal of at-
tention to the parish affairs of Marylebone, and he had
never heard of any cmplaint with respect to the ap•
pointmejit of auditors in that parish.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he did not care who appointed
the auditors, provided that the auditors were independent
of the body appointing them. He wished to eonsult the
wishes of the rate-payers. If they were satisfied, then
he should be satisfied also.—(Hear, hear.) He would,
therefore, not press that part of the clause which went
to the appointment of barristers as auditors.—(Hear.)
The clause, as amended, was then ordered to stand
part of the Biil.

Clause 59 was agreed to.
On clause 60 being proposed,
Mr. HENLEY was understood to propose that all
future clerks of boards of guardians should be attorneys
Colonel SIBTHORP was understood to support the
proposition.

Sir J. GRAHAM strongly opposed the proposition,
which would have the effect of mixing up law and liti-
gation in every matter of business, however trivial it
might be. The open system of appointment had worked
well, and why then interfere with it ?
Mr. WAKLEY said if they were to require the
clerks to boards of guardians to be lawyers they would
instantly entail an expense of thousands and thousands
upon every union in the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) He
was most strongly opposed to the suggestion of the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshire, and he trusted the Govern-
ment would remain firm in its determination not to con-
sent to it.

The proposition of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire
was then understood to be withdrawn.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM then moved that the Chair
man report progress and ask leave to sit again this day.

SAVINGS' BANKS.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented two petitions corn.
plaining of the operation of the Savings' Bank Regula•
Lion Bill.

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS. •
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE also presented a petition
from Mr. Rigby Wason, of the county of Ayr,
stating that he had been summoned before
the Committee on Controverted Elections, and
had given certain evidence before that Committee ;
but had seen with surprise that in the report it had
agreed upon, his evidence so given had been suppressed,
and praying for the production of that evidence. The
Hon. Member gave notice that to-morrow he would
move that this petition be printed with the votes.
AGRICULTURAL. PROTECTION.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented several peti-
tions from the county of Northampton, praying for pro-
tection to agricultural produce.

• • QUEEN'S STORES.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from Mr.
Duncan M'lntyre, of Fort William, North Britain,
stating that some years ago he was the means of detect-
ing various embezzlements in certain stores, the pro-
perty of her Majesty, for which he was entitled,
under the Act 10th William the Third, to 2002
from the Board of Ordnance, and praying the
House to give him just remuneration for services for
the exclusive use of his country.
IRISH MAGISTRATES.
Mr. ROSS gave notice that on Tuesday next he should
move for an humble address to her Majesty, praying for
the removal of Mr. O'Driscoll, recently restored to the
commission of the peace in Ireland.
POST-OFFICE COMMITTEE.
On the motion of Mr. BARING, leave was 'given to
Lord John Russell to attend the Committee of the House
of Lords on the business of the Post-office.

SINKING FUND. ..
Mr. WODEFIOUSE moved for a continuation of the
returns relating to the Sinking Fund up to the present
4:.......

REPEAL BUTTONS.

Mr. WYSE said that, seeing the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the Secretary at War, in his place, he wished to
ask him the question of which he had given notice. He
had observed in a Dublin newspaper, a few days Ago,
a report of an occurrence stated to have taken place in
the Castle of Dublin. A young man, named Osberry,
was driving a lady through the gates of the Castle of
Dublin, and \ the soldier on guard asked him
if he had a repeal button. He replied "No,"
And the lady told the soldier that he ought nut
to have stopped the man. The soldier followed
him, and asked if he had a repeal button in his pocket,
to which he replied that he had ; upon which he was
taken to the Chancery-lane station-house, and was next
day brought before the magistrates, who dismissed him
as not being guilty of any offence. A case of a similar
description had occurred to a person named Ignatius
Ennis. He wished therefore to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary at War whether any orders
had been given on the subject, and if so, whether they
had been given by the Commander-in-Chief ?
Sir T. FREMANTLE said that, in reference to the
question which had been asked by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, no orders had been issued with regard to the
Castle of Dublin, but the Commander of the Forces for-
bade any civilian wearing political or party badges from
being permitted to pass through the barracks in Ireland.
lie had not been able to obtain any precise information
with regttrd to the case alluded to by the Right lion.
Gentleman. He had every reason to believe that the
,rder with regard to the barracks was legal, and of
course if any person actually under those orders had
exceeded his duty he would be responsible for the con-
sequences, and he believed that the soldier had been
threatened with a writ, and the officer hail been bound
over to appear on a charge of false imprisonment.
LOAN SOCIETIES.

In answer to a question from Mr. COWPER, on the
subject of loan societies and pawnbrokers,
Mr. GLADSTONE said that there was no proba-
bility of the report on this subject being laid on the
table of the House during the present session, but it
would be finished during the recess.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave
notice that he would postpone the order of the .day on
the Savings' Banks Bill, in order that the Poor-law
Amendment Bill might be proceeded with.
PROCEEDINGS ON THE POST-OFFICE
COMMITTEE.
Mr. DUNCOMBE rose, and said that he wished to
matte a statement with respect to a particular branch of
the proceedings of that House. He had given notice of
his intention, in order that the Government or the gen-
tlemen comprising the Secret Committee in the Post,-
office should not be taken by surprise. Be was well
aware that it was not the practice or rule of the
[louse to refer or interfere with the proceedings
.f Committees during their sittings, but he thought
there were cases in which it was right to refer to them.
fie thought it was preposterous and most absurd for any
body to lay down a rule that surosing a, Committee of
that House had done great injustice or committed some
error, no reference should be made to that act of injustice
that error, until such Committee had made its report,
when it would be too late to remedy the injustice or correct
the error. He wished to call their attention to proceedings
which were of considerable importance to the public.
On Saturday last he was summoned before the Commit-
tee on the affairs of the Post-office. On being summoned
before that Committee, he was told that the Committee
understood that he had a statement to make to them.
He said that he had no statement •to make,
but, as regarded any information that it was in
tits power to give that Committee, he would
be most happy to give it, iTe was then asked
if he was prepared to prove certain charges that he had
made in his place in Parliament ? He stated he was
prepared to prove them by evidence. He was then
asked if he would repeat the charges which he had
made in his place in Parliament ? And he did
rtpeat the charges which he had made. Ile
repeated to the Committee the, same charges he had
brought forward in the House, and each member of that
('ommittee took down deliberately what he said, Sp that
he stood in the position of one preferring 411 indictment
against the Government. 'There was no reason
why he should not now repeat to the House what
lie had stated on a former occasion, and thet
was that the letters of Foreign Ministers had bgen, and
were, opened ; that a very unscrupulous use had been
made, during two years, of this secret power of opening
letters ; that a roving commission had been appointed in
the year 1842 for the purpose of opening letters in the
country ; that the letters of certain individuals had been
opened ; that he (Mr. Duncombe V(43 in a position
to prove, as he believed, that his own letters
had been opened ; thet some fifty or sixty of Mr,,
Mazzini s letters had been opened since Christ-
mas t that Captain Stolzman's letters had also
bden opened ; and that all Vais •had been done
at the instance of Fereign Governments. He (Me;
Duncombe) also described to the Committee the vvay in
%bleb ho believed letters were opened in the lost 'office,
eed he also stated he was in a condition to prove the
existence of a secret or inner office, where this dark
werk was carried on. Having done this, the Committee
asked him (Mr. Duncombe) to hand into them the list
of witnesses by whom his charges were to be
proved. He said, were he to do this, he should attend
in the condition of an accuser ten times more than hey
fore, and he could only' comply with this demand on
conditionjthat he should be present duri;ag the examina-
tion of teSe witnesses. The Committee then stated
that they did not posses 4 any such power as that of
allowing him be present without the leave or r
peai
or the House. In that opinion he (Mr. Dunds bon
ncome)
fully concurred ; and as they prest-41 f3r his list of wit-
nelses, he (Mr. Dunconte) made a formal application
that the Chairman of the Committee should apply
to the Hotta() for permission to enable him to
4, present, he of course being perfect./ willing
to pledge himself to the same spereeylf-(Hear, kear)—
which the other pAenllzep of he Qoauzittee were bowi4

do°
rto observe. He was then ordered to withdraw ; a
his return he was informed that the Comm.itte°.l.
decided to ask the permission of the House for him to
present at their sittings. He (Mr. Duneombe) ce tlufc2
had nothing to complain of in the demeanour of any
the the members of the Committee towards him. They ,tio
all of them in their manner most indulgent to
,u.,„
(Hear, and a laugh)—indeed, be might almost „."1,;
their conduct as coaxing.—(Loud laughter.) 1t.,„8,,s
then suggested to him that he might leave his
~P„„"rtie.
in the hands of some member in whom he
hence, and 'who might put all the requisite ,quesstt'_'s tse
(Hear, hear.) To this he (Mr. Duncombe) l.oboj
plied with perfect candour and courtesy that nemer.)
equal confidence in all of them.—(Loud lan.gliess
He was perfectly well aware that certain wit the
would give their evidence reluctantly, to saY.ve it
least, and that others would, probably, ric't gile for
at all ; in which case it would be impossibo, the
the Committee to en ter into the merits
very
question. Still the Committee pressed hiln,,itios
much to give up his list and to place them in the
in which he stoed himself'. He said it was totellLseg
possible that he could do so unless he nwithes
were present at the examination. Well now, Ift the
look at the state of this question. Irises to
first place, he was called to furnish a list of witnes
was
support certain charges which he had made, and.!!esses
not to be present during the time that those wiluote,
were to be examined. The Committee was elVschich
as he had before said, to'investigate certain charges
s,est,
lie (Mr. Duncombe) had brought against the Governisi
but it turned round suddenly and converted itself IF,
into a tribunal for tryiug his (Mr. Duncombe's) veraeltl'v big
(Hear, hear.) He was perfectly ready to satin
sei,
credibility to that Committee, but it was totally ilaelnst
ble that any gentleman who had not taken the Y;;„,
that he had to become master of the subject, hamskcoli'
mine the witnesses in the same manner asbe
They must remember that no lawyer was alloweu toed
on ori the Committee. Here were nine gentlemen tu;:ea
into a room, totally ignorant of the subject they were
called on to investigate.--(Hear, hear.) It vois
known that the chief witnesses which they hsju flare
mined were the different heads of the "erg'
ments, and he maintained that, as far a; oelj
had gone, or were likely to go, they had star
skimmed the surface on this great and important lest
tion. The public would not be satisfied if the te, 001
remained in its present position. The public cl:w
want a report containing a great deal of original at
antique research, but they wanted to know h
exact circumstances under which this power ere
been exercised by the present and past G°°oB
ments. He maintained that the truth could' no
ascertained, unless he were present during the exall',ol
tion of certain witnesses. It was for the House tof:a
with the question as in their wisdom they might
proper.
atlo
Lord SANDON and Mr. HUME then rose to
the House amidst some confusion. • eo
The SPEAKER having observed, that there was
question before the House,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE moved, that it be an instreciibl
to the Committee that he might be present during the
examination of such witnesses as he might think Pin
to examine.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. ,tee'
Lord Lord SANDON, as Chairman of the Conna'ed of
wished to make one or two remarks. He complaint be
the terms of the Honourable Member's notice, the
Honourable Member having himself admitted to
the
Committee that he could not be allowed to examine se. •
witnesses without an application to the L'a so
The Committee felt that the Hon. Gentleman na
et knowledge of the parties himself, and that be only,
s
he
on' information received from others. For him I°lipf,
present, therefore, examining witnesses and obser
the evidence, would have been virtually to have evict::
on the Committee—(Hear, hear)---without his losr
the responsibility of being a member of it. The
mittee conceived themselves to be quite Trost
of examining witnesses themselves ; but they di. to
think that it would in any way defeat the object .or,
investigation to refuse to admit him to be present as the
the inquiry. They should be most happy to haveold
H t
Hon. Member on the Committee, if the House
the
think fit to place him there, as he would then have
same responsibility as the other members of it. lad
Mr. HUME said he was sorry that this question _4O
been managed as it had been. It had thrown col
deal of scandal on the British Government abroalLot
H )
the present proceeding was likely to add to it.—(so'
Ile was sorry he was not in the House when theD
mittee was appointed, or he should have oppotteu
omission of his Hon. Friend's name. He believedinued
annals of Parliament no similar instance could be4set
of a person aiming forward as his llon,Friend had Oh
and giving himself all the trouble he had done, for n'oe
the country owed him a great deal.—(Hear, healo„ had
Committee were placed in a limited sphere ; they i 4
only official men before them, and could know r!_?:esd,
of the persons who gave information to his Hon..r,r',. of
He thobght the Noble Lord took a narrow Weal
what the Committee had to do. The Noble -to
said that his Honourable Friend wanted Wttee,
aware of all the secrets of the Cons° f
but his Hon. Friend never wanted to be a member ° the
Committee, and lie only wished to be present during,ot
examination of those witnesses who were to slibPirap
those charges which he made on his own responsksess)
His Hon. Friend did not want to vote.—(Hear,
or
He only wished before the report was made, that an es
portunity should be given to him to have that Poo
of the inquiry sifted. Few persons would have takes uP
themselves the responsibility of making those gravedose
serious charges against the Government which hit
Friend Friend had done, and it was impossible to conveY,t°oo.
nldividual member of the Committee that which Mt it to
Friend had the means of doing. He, therefore, Prue
the Right Hon. Baronet whether his Hon. Friend°
not to be present. On thess grounds he should see
the motion of his Hon. Friend. so°
Sir R. PEEL said he was unwilling to throw'
il its
technical difficulty in the way of the motion which
Lion. Hon. Gentleman had made, although he thought 'laser
justified, according to the rules of the House, In °Y•iwitll
ing to a Member of that House stating anythingetee.
respect to the proceedings of a Secret Ccann'' the
but he was unwilling to • debar the Hon. Gentleman 0f
opportunity of making his statement. No notice t
motion had bt en given, and he (Sir R. Peel) was ;0'
loss to understand the grounds upon which the The
Gentleman had made the present motion. njer
House would recollect the circumstances
te'heti
which this Committee had been appointed.
the proposal was first made almost unqualified sa7tyl
lion was expressed with respect to the formation O'„ to
Committee.—(Cries of " No, no.") He did not meat
say that it was universal, but the Committee was ab°,oo;
to be appointed without notice being given. ~„01,11;
Committee was composed of men well is-tse
for their impartiality and intelligence. 111 fie
Committee the majority 'of the members herl
opposed to her Majesty's Government. Four nietae
were in the habit of voting with her MajAeltl'e
Government, and five with the Opposition, an-f
whole of those five members voted for the motion H °or
on: Gentleman for a Select Committee. That .0
mittee had sat for several days, and he left it to ebo
Member to judge whether her Majesty's Governmenr"or
withheld a single fact from the knowledge of the' Coo'
mittee bearing on the inquiry, and whether isol
had thrown the slightest obstacle in the es‘
of the inquiry, or imposed the 81-ig
,v ht
00;
itnpediment the way of the examination of any ca'
whatever, either under the control of her Mail ,10°
Government or not. Her Majesty's Government ha eo'
personal interest in the question which the linn'„ielf
tleman had submitted to the House. He el ;re 10
shou!el feel it his duty to advise the House to ate fe.
that muse which had always been adhered to ivi" 0.0
sped to Committees of that House. The questiol!bil
a hether the House now repented the confidence o,!„cs of
had placed in the Committee. It was from no fee"l.o
h
disrespect that the Hon. Gentleman had not
seen hei-
rig
on the Committee. He conceived that
permission "to;
given to the Honourable Member to attend
coo'
Committee, he not being a member of the
mittee, and not subject to the eesponsiw,ieea
which was imposed upon members of Secret Conl`tice;
would, he thought, be casting a reflection on the 13°i;ot)
it would imply on the part of the House a distrust jots
in the stability of the Committee, and their desire
bee
searching and perfectly fair inquiry into the
transaction—secret-office and all. At the same tosv
le
assured the House, and the report which the Conn' her
Ai ould make would bear testimony to the fact, thathst;
.Majesty's Government were interested in no weY d,
apd
ever in the decision which the House might come t°;to it 9
lse felt it his duty to call on the House to adhere 00
forms, and regardless of any personal imputation ftte
might be thrown upon him, as the representative °, the
Government, that he had some object in excludiets,
Hn. Gentleman, he felt it his duty to resist thert'tbe
posal of the Hon. Member ; nor could he sual; teal
proposal which bad been made for the Hon.-Gen-eese°-
to appear before that Committee, in order to be Presets
at the examination of the witnesses. If the acca
wore to be present, in order that the evidence wig el'
given in support of the accusation, why should WI
bi present also who were' aconsed ?
Mr. DUNCOMBE—I have no objection to that. ,tioe
Sir R. PEEL--,The Hon. Gentleman felt the )4ti it'
of that, and expressed his readiness to acqu:fesee
but be tSir R. Peel) claimed no such itseivileKlear
thought the House ought to adhere to itieir eststi;de"
rules. The Government were indifferent as to, coo t
cision to which the House might come, because he bee
be
venture to day that the ITOUP, would be satisfied that the
Al4Jeat)'s Government had concealed nothing fr°,4l4s'
Committee. They had no wish to conceal an.losinS"
but he felt that ho had a duty to perform in the P-01'
in which he stood, regardless of any imputation
might be cast upon him.
Mr. ORD was understood to op pose the motion' for the
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it
would be welld lr? a tbser
House to reocillect the principle they had adore It'
appolutinent of this Committee.—(Hear, belay torre;
h 0 departed from the usual precedents
.I'll
ing Committeei ; for they had deternll°`„ Ct.
they would have no lawyers on the net
mittee that the accuser himself should it
resent—and also that they would exclude filer
those who did hold or had held high office in the ti-e;
jesty's Council.--(Hear.) He confessed that at tencil
he thought this was a fair prinoiple, but circutes
e'd iall6
totals place a short time afterwards which exei bets, waa,
mind, and in the minds of many other geT ife'"ey-
greatest possible surprise.—(Loud cries of ieforlet
hear.") He tbund from the usual organs °' sukiras,
tiots ,but a Committee on the seiner
1.10 been appointed by the House et'sey uerf
which Committee oat formed on a ~te° Miniss94 of •
ferent principle than that suggested by witw.rig•
for the HOthig ocCommons. For, on the cs°,Tsra belest
the Lords were three ex-Ministers, two ei Is the °se-
es-vsbancellors, mon, of course, accustomed G°"
skilful skilful mode of examination either Irthe uost
pressing or for eliciting information. • diffcrthio
vents:seat meant to • act upon a totally _
Rrincißle elsewhere, they ought not to have Pnr.
tosi