The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-10 00:00:00

sedges—by which term I mean the chairmen of quarter
scions, recorders, and judges, including those in Scot-
land—and I remember no case in which ajudge informed
me that he had passed a sentence with the expectation
that it would not be carried into effect, or had given any
intimation to a prisoner that he would be entitled to
claim the remission of any portion of his sentence if
he behaved well. (Hear, hear.) I made one reference
to the Lord Justice Clerk of Scotland, a very distin-
guished judge, who wrote to me very fully expressing
his opinion against the remission of any portion of the
sentence, and informing me that he was authorised to
state that the judges of the superior courts of Scotland
hal passed no sentence of penal servitude except with
the expectation that it would be fully carried into effect,
as they understood to be the intention of Parliament. I
have seen it stated publicly that, by some rule or regula-
tion of the Home-office, the intention of Parliament has
been defeated by the restriction of tickets of leave to
those convicts who were under sentence of transporta-
tiou in 1853, and the exclusion from their benefit of
all persons since sentenced to that punishment. I am
happy to be able to state that no such rule or regulation
has been made. No one can now be sentenced to trans-
portation for less than 14 years ; and as this act has
only been in operation three years and a half, no con-
vict sentenced to transportation since. it was passed can
yet be in a position to claim a ticket of leave. All such
persons must at present be undergoing preliminary im-
pritionment in some of our probationary establishments. It
is obvious therefore that the system popularly called the
ticket-of-leave system, and which I must say has given rise
to exaggerated alarm, would, if things were to remain as
they are, soon become almost extinct and hardly per-
ceptible. At least it would only have this effect, that
there would be subject to it the balance of prisoners still
remaining on hand who were under sentence of transper-
tation in 1853, together with a few exceptional cases of
penal servitude convicts. Still, that I admit is no answer
to the questions " What shall we do with our criminals?"
and " What is the best kind of secondary punishinents to
apply to them ?" Nor can it be expected to allay the
apprehensions—to a certain extent web founded, although
alio greatly exaggerated—which have been excited with
regard to the retention in this country of prisoners who
have been convicted of serious crimes, and who under the
former system were sent abroad. The point as to tickets
of leave has little or nothing to do with the; questiou, be-
cause whether a prisoner was at large upon a ticket of
leave in 1856, or whether at the expiration of a sentence
which cannet be prolonged bylaw hale discharged in 1857
or 1858, the effect is one and the same—he must either
before or at the expiration of his sentence be discharged
in this country ; and instead of finding himself in
a new community, with ample opportnnities for obtain.
ing honest employment, and with little temptation to
evil,- he is thrown back among his old associates, has the
greatest difficulty, perhaps, in getting work, both from
the feeling entertained against persons who have -been
convicted of crime, and from the numberless competitors
he has to meet in the' labour market. 'These dangers
may no doubt be overrated ; yet unquestionably they
are of great magnitude ; and it is most desirable as far
as possible to provide against them, in the interest both
of the country at large and of the criminals themselves.
This was very forcibly pointed out by Mr. Baron Bram-
well in his recent address to the grand jury of Essex, in
which the learned judge remarked, without expressing
any opinion whether tickets of leave are good or bad,
that the real question is, what becomes of the criminal
after he is discharged, e it in this country or be it
abroad ? (Hear.) I have said that I think the alarm on
this - subject greatly exaggerated ; and, in tracing the
effects of the act of 1863, I ought, perhaps, to say why
I am of that opinion. Much has been written in the
newspapers about the danger arising from ticket-of-leave
men being at large in this country, and doubtless a great
deal of what has been said is not intended to apply ex-
clusively to the holders of tickets of leave, but to persons
who have either been in prison or have undergone sen-
tences of transportation and returned to this country
after their legal discharge. That class no doubt forms a
large portion of our criminal population ; it did so before
1853, it has done so since then, and I am afraid it must
continue to do so. Nobody who looks at the reports of
the trials at our sessions and assizes can fail to observe
that in a great number of cases the prisoners are not
charged for the first time, but have been convicted of
repeated and habitual crimes. I obtained a return the
other day of the number of ticket-of-leave holders
convicted at the assizes held in 24 counties in December
last. At those assizes 625 prisoners in all were tried,
only 29 of whom, or less than 5 per cent., are returned
as holders of tickets of leave. I do not say it is
not to be regretted that there should be even that num-
ber. What I maintain is that these figures do not justify
the great apprehensions felt that all our crime is com-
mitted by ticket-of-leave men. But what is the general
state of crime as disclo'ed by the returns for the last two
years I At the close of the debate on the Address the
other night, the right bon gentleman the member for
Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) spoke of a frightful in-
crease in pauperism and crime, but I did not then deem
it necessary to comment on his observations, because I
felt that I ghoul I have a fitting opportunity to state the
facts of the case on the present occasion. Criminal
tables, prepared by Mr. Redgrave, were laid before Par-
liament on the first day of the ses-riou, containing a very
careful comparison and analysis of the crime in this
country in the years 1854 and 1855. But what was the
state of crime in 1856 as compared with 1855, the peried
within which such loud cemplainte had been made t It
must be remembered, too, that in the year 1356 the
militia were disbanded, and the regular army con-
siderably reduced • and, although. the maj,rity of the
soldiers who served the country abroad were doubtless
well-conducted men, yet, when a large b)dy of persons
from the ranks of the army were thrown again into civil
life, you could not be altogether surprised if that step
were followed by some addition to the statistics of crime,
wholly irrespective of the discharge of prisoners upon
tickets of leave. Such appears to have been the general
impression judging fretu what one reads in the news-
papers. Now, doubtless there has been a considerable
increase in a certain class of crimes, especially in those
attended with violence. The returns for 1854 and 1855 are
in the hands of hon. members; and I trust they will avail
themselves of the opportunity to ermine them. But there
was a disturbing cause which it is necessary to take into
account. In 1854 the passing of the Criminal Justice
Act extended the summary jurisdiction of justices
of the peace, and the consequence was a large in-
crease in the number of summary convictions within
the next twelve months concurrently with a corre-
spending decree-4e in the cases tried at the assizes and
sessions. Bat in 1855 and 1855 no such cause was in
operation, the Criminal Justice Act being equal, in
force daring both of those years. The foltowiog table
gave the summary convictions and commitments for
trial in 1856, contrasted with those for the previous
year :—England and Wales.—Number of persons com-
mitted on summary convictions in 1856, 77,667 ; num-
ber of persons committed for trial at &seize.; and sessions
in 1816, 19,433 ;—total, 97,100 ; number of persons
committed on summary convictions in 1955, 77,011 ;
number of persons committed for trial at assizes
and sessions in 1855, 25,972 ;—total, 103,013.
Comparison of the commitments in 1856 and 1855 :
—Summary convictions, 0.8 per cent. increase ; c.nia-
mitn.ents for trial, 25.1 per cent. ceor, a -e ;—total, 6 1
per cent. decrease. Thus, while there was but a small
tractional increase in the Dumber of suunrrary convic-
tions in 1856 compared with 1855 there was a very re-
markable decrease, amounting to no less than 25 per
cent. in the graver class of cases—viz., the commitments
fur trial at the assizes and sessions. That is a state of
things which I think does not justify all the alarm
which has prevailed in the country in regard to the pro-
gress of crime. Burglary and other violent offences are
comprised in this general aggregate, and it is also wor-
thy of note that the crime:of robbery, including, as it
does, garotting, which is only one of the various modes
resorted to for effecting robbery, has slightly decreased
in 1856 as compared with 1855. If the right hon. member
fer Manchester were present I should call his attention
to the fact that the late chief constable of that city
recently informed me that within the last three months
there has beset areutarkable diminution of crime in Man-
chester. As the general condition of the people of this
country is so closely connected with the state of crime,
and as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Gibson) coupled
pauperism and crime together perhaps I may also be per-
mitted to observe that the decrease o feriae which I
have mentioned is attributable to a cause which has al-
ways a powerful effect on our prison returns. I hold in
my hand a copy of the annual return, which will be laid
oa tbs table by the President of the Poos-Law Board,
showing the number of persons receiving parochial relief
in England and Wales on the let of January, 1857, as
compared with the Ist of January, 1856. This return
comprises the 40 counties of England and all the coun-
ties of Wales, and I find that in seven counties only is
there any increase in pauperism, and in some cases that
increase is hardly- perceptible. In all the other counties
there has been a decrease. In Lancashire_the diminution
is 11 per cent. ; the same in Nottingham ' • and there has
been a large decrease in Middlesex and the East and
West Ridings of Yorkshire. In fact, in those counties
where the population is most dense there has been a
decrease in pauperism, and I believe also a large de-
crease in crime—at least, of that class of crime which
is most affected by the condition of the people. I may
remark that when the general condition of the people is
good, when employment is plentiful, and food is cheap,
then crimes against property which come under the head
of larceny diminish, but crimes of violence often increase,
arising, as they do, from causes quite irrespective of the
difficulties under which the poorer classes sometimes
labour. Having said so mach as to facts, let me now
refer to the state of the law. Sentences of transportation
for 14 years or upwards may be passed, or, at the dis-
cretion of the Court, penal servitude may be substituted
in lieu of the higher penalty ; but below periods of 14
years only sentences of penalservitudecan be pronounced.
Sentences of penal servitude must be carried out at
home, or in those colonies of the Crown where the con-
victs can be employed upon public works, as at Gibral-
tar and Bermuda, and every prjsoner sent to those places
must be brought home again to this country either in
anticipation of the expiration of his sentence, or when he
has fully completed its term ; for, even were it legal to
do so, there are political reasons against liberating con-
vane in those colonies. Now, of the 350 persons annu-
ally sentenced in Great Britain to transportation, after
deducting women, with regard to whom there are now no
means of Carrying out such a sentence, and also deducting
the sick, the old and those witblwor'n-out constitutions,
of whom there.;
vies: es, there
will many to be found among the criminal
robably be not more than 250 annu-
ity tu who under er
ttent state of the law could legally
be transported from ceountry, and even that number
may be diminished by --
judgetnlevaeuricinse of the discretion that
is vested in the
last
refer to the opinions
of the committees which eat I year upon this subject.
The committee of the House of C
into that branch of the subject whichorneslaredtered c
ad-
ministration of the law in to the chiefly
We country.
It received
much valuable and useful evidence, and madeao
im-
portant reoommendationa. The committee of theTtouse
of Lords took another course, and, although they ex-

amined Colonel Jebb as to the administration of the law
in this country, they examined no other witness upon
that point, but pursued its inquiries into the possibility
of continuing and extending transportation, and of find-
ing ether places for the reception of convicts than
Western Australia. There wae, however, a remarkable
concurrence of opinion between the two committees as
to the benefit to be derived from a continuance of the
system of transportation to as great an trent as the
Government could find means to apply it. (Heir, hear.)
The committee of the House of Commons say—
" Tl}atthe punishment of transportation is more effectual
and deterring, better wlapted for the ultimate reformation
of convicts, and more beneficial to this country thin any
other secondary punishment for serious crimes which has
yet been tried. That the committee therefore recommend
the continuation of the sentence of transportation, so far
as her Majesty's dominions may afford safe and proper
facilities for that purpose."
The committee of the House of Lords said—

" That, in the opinion of the committee, a continuance
of the system of transportation to some colony or colonies,
with such improvements as experience has suggested, or
may suggest, would be highly desirable, provided that the
system can be carried on with advantage to the colony,
and with satisfaction to the colonists."
The two committees have concurred in the opinion, which
I believe is shared by a majority of this house, that whe-
ther we consider the interests of the convicts themselves
or the interests of the country, it is most desirable that
before the expiration the sentence of offenders who have
been guilty of grave crimes, those convicts should be re-
moved to another part of the world, where they would be
freed from the temptations to a renewal of vicious courses,
rend where there would be greater opportunities for com-
mencing a new and improved mode of life. (near.) In
saying this, however, I cannot shut my eyes to the amazing
difficulties which have lately sprung up in the way of car-
rying out the desire which all entertain—that, having
punished men for committing crime, we should preserve
them from a renewal of their evil practices by seeding them
to countries where they:could commence a new course of
life under better prospects than at home. In any opinion
which I may express upon this subject, either now or here-
after, I beg it may be understood that the Government
has not the remotest intention of departing from the spirit
or letter of the arrangement which has been made, and I
think wisely, that as regards Van Diemen's Land and the
South Australian colonies, transportation has completely
ceased. I hope it will not be imagined by any one that we
have any intention of renewing that contest. now happily
subsided, which raged at one time on the subject of trans-
portation to the colonies. The committees which sat last
year have expressed themselves very clearly upon that
point. The committee of the House of Commons qualified
their recommendations by adding, "so far as her Majesty's
dominions may afford safe and proper facilities for that
purpose." The House of Lords not less distinctly said,
"provided the system can be carried on with advantage to
the colony and with satisfaction to the •colonists."e I
hope,'. therefore, there will be no misapprehension upon
this subject, or any idea that we are • about to force con-
victs upon unwilling colonies. I may here observe that
among the many suggestions which have been made from
time to time there have been several for the establishment
of great penal depots at various places, such as Holyhead,
Gibraltar, and elsewhere, where convicts during the
period of their sentences could be usefully employed upon
public works ; but those who made such suggestions
are not aware of what was the real difficulty in the ques-
tion. There is no difficulty in disposing of convicts during
the stages of their separate imprisonment or their labour
upon public works; in fact, I am obliged to refuse the calls
of my right hon. friend the First Lord of the Admiralty
for convicts to work at Portland, Portsmouth, Chatham,
and Gibraltar, simply beceuse there are not convicts enough
undergoing their sentences for he public works upon which
they may be usefully employed. The difficulty consists,
not in finding places where they may be beneficially em-
ployed, but in finding places whither they may go after the
completion of their sentences with some hopes and pros-
pects of reformation. It is the duty of the Government to
avail itself of all the facilities which exist for that object,
and I may venture to say it is the duty of Parliament to
assist us in removing any obstacles which may stand in
our way. The facilities which exist for transportation
are these :—Western Australia is the only colony which
will receive convicts under sentence of transportation.
The house must bear in mind that I have shown
that in future years 250 is the largest number of convicts
which we can calculate upon being able to send abroad,
owing to the small number of sentences of transportation
which are now pronounced, and it must also bear in mind
that those 250 have all been repeatedly convicted or con-
victed of serious offences. That is the stock in hand for
future supply. What are the facilities for their disposal?
The committees to which I have alluded took much valu-
able evidence respecting Western Australia. They exa-
mined witnesses long resident in the colony, men of pro-
perty in, and, what was more important, who were about
to return to, the colony—those witnesses comprising Capt.
Fitzgerald, the late governor, Messrs. Brown, Moore,
Hume, &c. The colonists were anxious to have convicts
that they might have the advantage of their labour. As to
the nature and capabilities of the colony, the evidence
showed that its extent was very large, and that it was, as
yet, almost entirely separated from the other Australian
colonies. It is described as a vast plain, with only three
ports from which convicts could effect their escape, and
there would be no difficulty in guarding against escapes
from those ports. The climate is good, suitable for agri-
cultural pursuits; the country presents numerous tracts
suitable for corn ; there is an excellent breed of horses,
which are exported largely to India, being considered supe-
rior to other Australian horses ; there is an abundance of
fine timber, and the land is suitable for the growth of the
vine, which is already cultivated to a large extent. I be-
lieve the demand for convict labour arose in Western Aus-
tralia from very considerable grants of land being made to
private individuals, who thought that land constituted
wealth, whereas without labour land is perfcctly valueless.
Now that convict labour is available these persons are able
to turn the land to some account, and there is a general
opinion expressed by these witnesses that oven under the
present system without adopting the changes suggested by
the House of I;ordsyfrom 800 to 1,000 convicts a-year might
be received and usefully employed in Western Australia—
probably more if measures were taken inviting capital and
labour to the colony. In addition to this evidence given
before the committee, representations have been made by
a deputation of gentlemen connected with the colony to
the Secretary of State that Western Australia possesses
peculiar advantages for the reception of convicts, and that
both proprietors and residents concur in the desire to have
convicts sent.
Sir J. PAKINGTON.—Have no representations been
sent home the other way ?
Sir G. GREY.—The (Ally representation the other way
was a petition, which came last year while the committee
was sitting, which complained not the', convicts were sent
out from this country, but that a certain number recently
sent were net selected with as much care as formerly, and
that, instead of few crimes being committed, some of seri-
ous magnitude had been the result. The Lords' committee
advert to that complaint, and recommend a return to the
rrinciPle of selection, in order to send to Western Austra-
lia that class of convicts which will be most useful to the
colony. This demand by Western Australia fc r convict
labour is one which in the present state of the law the Go-
vsrement is unable to meet. Hera is a colony asking for
from COO to 800 or 1,000 convicts a-year, and we have n
more than 250, comprising that class against which excep-
tion was taken in the petition to which I have referred.
trader these circumstances the question arose in the course
of last year whether, under the sixth section of the act of
1853 persons sentenced to penal servitude could be sent to
Western Australia. The terms of the act appear to be
very large :

" Evely person who under this act shall be sentenced or
orde7cd to be kept in penal servitude may, during the term
of the sentence or order, be confined in any such prison or
place of confinement in any part of the united kingdom' or
in any river, port, or harbour of the united kingdom, in
which persons under sentence or order of transportation
may no.v by law be confined, or in any other prison in the
united kingdom, or is say pert of her Majesty's dominions
beyond the seas, or in any pert or harbour thereof, as one
of her Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State may from
time to time direct; and such person may during such term
be kept to hard labour and otherwise dealt with in all respects
as persons sentenced to transportation may now by law be
dealt with while so confined."

The question was referred to the law officers of the Crown,
and, after carefully considering it, they arrived at the con-
clusion that it was not competent fur the Government to
avail themselves of Western Australia as a place where the
sentence of penal servitude could be carried into effect.
The fact is, such convicts would not be subject to the colo-
nial laws and ordinances, their labour could not be assigned
to the governor of the colony, and they could not have a
qualified liberty. Transportation would lose all its value,
and it would be only sending convicts out to bring them
back again before the expiration of their sentences at a
great expense, without the slightest benefit to the colony.
The Commons' committee, in their seventh resolution, re-
commended that the sentences of penal servitude should be
lengthened to terms identical with the terms of transpor-
tation for which they were substituted. The Lords' com-
mittee, in their 12th resolution, recommended that the
provisions of the act substituting penal servitude for trans-
portation should be revised. They did not specify with
what object they should be revised, but I apprehend they,
like the House of Commons, thought that the sentences of
penal servitude should be lengthened, and made identic,l
with the former sentences of transportation. The House of
Commons state a ground for their recommendation—viz.,
to give effect to a previous resolution, that every punish-
ment should include a first period of imprisonment with
hard labour, and a further period capable of being abridged
by the good conduct of the convict himself ; and they sug-
gest that the present term of panel servitude should, as a
, general rule, be inflicted, but that there should be super-
added, over and above the present term, anbject to miti-
gation, the difference between the present period of penal
servitude and the former period of transportation for
which it was substituted. They further recommend an in-
termediate period of penal servitude. When sentences of
seven years' transportation were passed there was a dis-
cretion in the judge, which now remains in cases of four
years' penal servitude, to substitute a sentence of impri-
sonment alone—usually two years' imprisonment, instead
of seven years' transportation. In recommending the in-
crease of the sentence of penal servitude to seven years the
committee recommend that the discretion of the judge
shall be enlarged, and that he shall be able to inflict a
period of penal servitude longer than the imprisonment,
but shorter than the transportation would have been under
the old law. I come now to the proposals which I have to
make on the part of the Government, as appearing to them
to be the most expedient, after full consideration of the
subject. We propose in the bill which I shall ask leave to
introduce to give effect to the 7th resolution of the com-
mittee of the House of Commons recommending that sen-
tences of penal servitude shall be lengthened so as to be
made identical with the sentences of transportation for
which they were substituted. We also propose to give
effect to the 9th resolution, giving discretion to the judge
to pass an intermediate sentence between the ordinary term
of imprisonment and the term of seven years' penal servi-
tude. The, first clause of the bill will repeal the provisions
of the act of 1853, by which the shorter sentences of penal
servitude were substituted for the longer sentences of trans-
portation, and rill render persons who may formerly have
been sentenced to transportation liable to be kept in penal
servitude for the same duration as the term of transporta-
tion for which they were liable before the act passed.
There is then a proviso giving the discretion to the judge
to pass a sentence of intermediate penal servitude, as I
have already explained to the house. This will, I trust,
provide a remedy for the evil complained of, and will en-
able us to avail ourselves of the facilities which still exist,
and I trust will hereafter be enlarged, of removing persons
convicted of serious crimes from this country. The effect
of this alteration will be that the sentence of penal servi-
tude need not necessarily be carried out by the removal of
the convict from this country, but if it be thus carried out
the sentence will carry with it the same regulations to
which convicts are now subject. I propose to take this
power, and to make it generally applicable to all sentences
of penal servitude, because is difficult to draw the line,

and to say what persons shall be removed from this coun-
try and who shall not. I do not anticipate that this power
will be exercised with regard to the greater portion of those
sentences for short periods, and especially if these inter-
mediate sentences of penal servitude are passed I do not
think theta will be the practice to remove from this country
convicts sentenced to very short terms of imprisonment.
As a rule I think it will not be expedient that prisoners
should be sent to the colonies on very shed sentences.
In other cases, when sent there, prisoners ought to be for a
very considerable time subject to the control of a ticket of
leave, and I do not make this proposal with the intention
that it should be carried into effect before a portion of their
sentences shall be passed in penal servitude. A very large
portion of the sentences must be for seven years, and in a
very large proportion of cases these prisoners will not be
removed from this country. It is proposed to give that power
of selection which the committee of the House of Loris
think the essence of the system of transportation to Western
Australia, an 1 which they recommend the Government to
have recourse to. It would be necessery to consider in con-
nection with their crime and their sentence circumstances
of which the judge could know nothing at the time—the
age, the physical strength, and the pursuits of the convicts.
To send convicts to the colonies who would crowd the labour
market, and who are unfitted for labour by physical weak-
ness, age, ill-health, and other circumstances, would be to
send those who woult,) be a burden to the colonies.
This would be a course unwarranted by experience,
while a contrary method would remove the objeetione
which the colonists of Western Australia enter-
tain to the class of criminals from which they have
hitherto been furnished. The power of selection will
enable the Government to send a sufficient quantity of con-
victs to Western Australia or other colonies to which it
might be determined to send them, and to avail themselves
of additional facilities for the disposal of convicts without
further alteration of the law. An objection may
be made to the uncertainty of punishment in the sen-
tence for penal servitude, and it may be said that a con-
vict will not know whether he will find himself in this
country or in a distant colony. (Hear.) But that objec-
tion has always applied to the sentence of transportation
also, so that no convict sentenced to seven years' transpor-
tation was really sent out of the country. The judge may
have depicted the horrors of being separated from his fa-
mily and friends and being sent to a distant colony, and
the convict often went from the bar expecting that he
would be transported to a distant country. But in three
or four years it usually happened that the convict found
himself again in his native village among his family and
friends. For short sentences, therefore, it was impossible
to carry the sentence of transportation into effect, and
there was much uncertainty whether it would be carried
into effect or not.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—These sentences were put an end
to on that account.
Sir G. GREY—It was certainly impossible to carry a
large number of the sentences of ttansp,rtation into effect,
either from the physical incapacity of the convicts, or from
other causes, and the right hon. gentleman cannot put his
finger upon a single year in which a large number of con-
victs under sentence of transportation were not retained
permanently in this country. It is also to be remarked
that the sentences of penal servitude can be carried into
effect whether the convicts serve their sentences at home
or abroad, while an actual deportation from this country
is the very essence of a sentence of transportation. The
committee recommend that a certain number of prisoners
should be sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar to serve their
sentences of transportation, and they say that it is neces-
sary that the public works should be performed in those
colonies by convict labour. With regard to the course
pursued the sentence passed upon these convicts amounted
to a qualified sentence of deportation. The convicts were
sentenced by the judges, and then, not by the decision
of the Government, a certain number were sent to Ber-
muda and Gibraltar, and remained in those colonies to
undergo their sentences. A further objection would be the
great anomaly which would remain if the bill stopped here.
If it were left to the discretion of the Government to remove
convicts sentenced to penal servitude, it would be a great
anomaly to continue to pass sentences of transportation
above 11 years. At present these sentences need not be
passed at all, and the judges may pass sentences of penal
servitude for the same term. It may be urged that there
is no reason why we should retain the sentence of transpor-
tation for 11 years. Why should the judges have a discre-
tion in the one case and not in the other ? The judge has
no knowledge whether the sentence will be carried into
effect or not. A man stands before him, and he has no safe
guide to enable him to exercise a sound discretion, or to
say whether the prisoner is a fit person for the labour of a
colony. I propose, therefore, to abolish the sentence of
transportation altogether, and to substitute the sentence of
penal servitude for it. I now come to the sth resolution of
the House of Commons, which recommends that sentences
should not be carried into effect whore convicts considered
themselves entitled to their partial remission. I have been
asked by many persons to extend these remissions to those
under sentence of penal servitude. I replied that I would
not do so, because I did not want Parliament to be ham-
pered and fettered in the consideration of this question. I
thought if I held out any expectation of a remission of
these sentences I should be told that we were breaking
faith with these prisoners. No prisoner under sentence of
penal servitude, except in a few special cases, has had any
expectations held out to him of a remission of any portion
of his punishment, and Parliament ie, therefore, at liberty
to deal with these persons as it thinks best. I admit that
the resolution of the committee is founded upon the evi-
dence of witnesses of great weight. Some of the judges
are also of opinion that it is desirable to give a stimulus
to hope, and to hold out the prospect of a remission of a
portion of the sentence as a reward to good conduct. In
that principle I must say I, in a great degree, concur.
(Hear, hear.) It may, however, be carried too far in
sentences of transportation. In 1853 it might be neces-
sary, in consequence of the peculiar circumstances of the
time, and as an experiment, to bold out hopes of a remis-
sion of punishment. I think it will be found desirable
that the principle of this recommen lation should be acted
upon. No doubt it is the best way of maintaining prison
discipline. Hope is a more influential motive than tho
fear of punishment, and this principle ought, I think, to
be acted upon if the sentences are for lengthened periods.
I am also of opinion that persons who are to be sent out of
the country ought to undergo some months of separate
punishment before they leave this country. It has been
said that a certain portion of those who may be advanta-
geously sent to Western Australia should be sent either
with tickets-of-leave, to take effect shortly after their arri-
val, or with the expectation of receiving a ticket-of-leave
after their arrival in Western Australia. Captain Hen-
derson has expressed a strong opinion, in which I concur,
that the greatest value may be expected from the training
which the convict receives in England, but he recommen, es
that a part of the strictly penal sentence ought to be passed
in the colony to which he is sent. The real difficulty is its
to those who are left at home. (Hear, hear.) I propose
with regard to them that the same principle shall be
adopted. There are some persons who commit crimes of
such atrocity, or who are guilty of such gross misconduct
in prison, that they come under the denomination of incor-
rigible. This class have no claim to any indulgence, and
ought not to be inflicted on a colony. They really almost
belong to the class of criminal lunatics, who have commit-
ted some great crime, for which they have been imprisoned
for life, not as a punishment for an offence for which they
are not responsible, but to secure society against a repe-
tition of that offence. With regard to the other and 1
far more numerous portion of criminals, no doubt the
more we can send abroad the better ; but some must
be kept at home, and we propose to retain the power
of remitting a portion of their sentences. Two questions
were raise r before the committee in connection with such
a remission—first, what should be its amount ; secondly,
whet should be its terms and conditions? It ought, no
doubt, to be considerably shorter in amount than the mi-
nimum fixed in the case of convicts under sentence of trans-
portation. A great dral of the outcry whicsoh' has been
-raised against the system of discharging priners w
licenses has been caused by the large remissions of sen-
tences which have taken place; great irritation has been
produced in many neighbourhoods by seeing a man who
had been sentenced to perhaps 15 years' transportation re-
turn at the expiration of four years; and some of the
judges of the land have felt a certain amount of annoyance
at being obliged to try prisoners upon whom they had al-
ready passed sentences which, if they had been carried into
effect, would have prevented the men from committing
ether crimes. Ido not think that any term ought to be
named as an unbending r ule, but one-fourth or, at the
utmost, one-third of tho sentence ought only to be capable
of remission.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—That would be the minimum
period.
Sir G. GREY—It is not possible to fix any minimum
period. A judge frequently comes to the Secretary of
state, and states that circumstances have come to his
knowledge since the conviction of a criminal which induce
him to think that he has passed too severe a sentence—
(hear)—although they do not amount to proof of the man's
innocence. In such cases justice requires that the Secretary
of State should make the sentence what it would have been
if the judge had been in full possession of the facts at the
time of passing it. Although the regulations upon which
remission should depend cannot, therefore, be made the sub-
ject of any unbending rule, they may be made the subject
of some general rule ; and they ought to be communicated
to all judges and persons holdingj udicial situations, in order
that when they are passing sentence they may have a full
knowledge of the amount of punishment which the prisoner
will in any case have to undergo. Then comes the question
of the terms upon which the remission ought to be granted,
whether conditional or absolute. The committee stated that
the ticket-of-leave system had been in operation for too short
a time to enable them to give an opinion respecting it, and
they. passed a resolution recognising the justice of its prin-
ciple, although they negatived a resolution that it should
be acted upon in all criminal cases. The committee, in my
opinion, were wise in expressing no opinion as to the merits
of the system upon the facts before them ; but I propose to
retain the power of granting these conditional discharges, as
in many cases it may be very usefully exercised. In many
cases after a prisoner has been discharged, in consequence of
a strong recommendation from the visiting justices and a
certificate from a medical officer, stating that his life is in
danger, he is found in a very short time committing some
new crime, apparently in perfect health, having either
feigned illness or recovered health by the change of scene and
air, and the return to his old habits. It is highly expedient
that in such a case the discharge should be conditional.
Some people suppose that a ticket of leave is a sort of certi-
ficate of good character, and that those men only obtain it
who can prove that they are reformed. There was never a
more fallacious idea. It is very desirable that the illusion
should be dispelled that the holder of a ticket of leave is
less likely to relapse into crime than any other discharged
criminal. Ticket-of-leave-holders, as a class, have been, I
will not say the subject of much prejudice, but the cause
of much alarm, and they have found great difficulty in ob-
taining any honest employment in this country. They
bear upon them the stamp of the criminal. It has been
proposed, in order to meet this difficulty that ticket-of-
leave-holders should not be restrained from leaving the
country. But tickets of leave are revocable at the pleasure
of the Crown, and revocation implies remission to the for-
mer punishment. If a ticket-of-leave-bolder is committed
to prison for a new offence he is taken back after the ex-
piration of his term of imprisonment to undergo the re-
mainder of his first sentence, but if he went abroad, to
France or America, how could the Crown exercise the
power of revocation ? It may be said there is no objection
to allowing criminals to go abroad, and many of then!
have certainly enlisted in the army and male very good
soldiers, but the Government could not encourage them
to break the conditions of their discharge
The same obstacle prevents us from allowing them to go to
the colonies, to Canada, or Australia. The power of revo-
cation could only be exercised by the colonial authorities,
by virtue of colonial acts, and it would be almost impos-
sible by going abroatl.
Bible for them to sends number of men from the antipod
to Portland to undergo the remainder ?fttheeihr sentences.
Upon:this point , however, I do not now wish
h erns
sed by the rom-
an opinion. I concur in the opinion ex
because it
power at present possessed kmake
aGovernment,npyeasl
mittee, and I do not proposebytothmea
is a useful power, even . although it be not exercised as a
consideration with
There is cue important
general rule. terationin the
regard to Western Anal l .
_.
ux
0,
f the sexes. A. arge in 4 i
—I refer to the ineqty o
and it was
male convicts could not go on for many years,
tralia which must not be overlooked

stated before the Lords' committee that the colony could
not receive 800 or 1,000 convicts a-year for the next 20
years without the adoption of some means of increasing
the number of female emigrants. Hitherto the colony has
refused to receive female convicts, and not unreasonably,
considering the general character of the female convicts
sent out from this country. The Director of Prisons in
Ireland states that the class of Irish female convicts is
essentially different from the class of English female con-
victs, and that they are not persons of immoral life, using
that term in the ordinary sense. They are not prostitutes
or persons of that kind. That officer also explains the na-
ture of the measures taken under his direction for the
reformation of these women, and certainly the results he
states afford ground for hope and expectation that
many of these women would make very useful settlers
in a convict colony. So in England, at the establishment
lately formed under the charge of Colonel Jebb, to which
female prisoners were draughted from Brixton Prison, the
greatest pains are taken to effect their reformation. I hope
that by some such means the difficulty will to a certain
degree be overcome. The 10th resolution of the Commons'
committee recommended that the hulks system should be
finally abandoned. For some time past that system has
übeseedn inst coursechathnonif aebraenfderonimuveenitid prisoners, and means are, and the only hulks now
being taken for providing a prison on shore to which those
prisoners may be removed. When that is effected, the
total abolition of the hulk system, which is liable to seri-
ous objection, will take place. There is another resolution
of the committee to which I wish; to refer, and the pro-
riety of which I, with all respect, rather doubt. The
16th resolution states—" That over convict on his release
with a ticket-of-leave ought to be reported to the police of
the town or district to which he is sent." I certainly
should be sorry to call the attention of the police in every
case to these men released with a ticket-of-leave for that
might have the effect of increasing the difficulty of those
well disposed in obtaining honest employment. With re-
spect to London, the police have reports of the character
and course of life of the men with tickets-of-leave, resid-
ing in their districts under their instructions, which I be-
lieve they honestly act up to. Ido not think any ob-
structions are placed in the way of the ticket-of-leave men
obtaining an honest livelihood. lam aware that a meet-
ing took place a short time ago, over which a noble earl
presided, and at which some ticket-of-leave men made com-
plaints of the conduct of the police, on account of interfer-
ing with their endeavours to obtain honest employment.
Such conduct, if the charge were tree, was most unwar-
rantable ; and all I can say is, that if any policeman acted
in the way described he acted contrary to his instructions.
I obtained from the Commissioner of Police the names of
the convicts who made these charges, with the view of in-
vestigating their allegations, and all the constables im-
peached will be punished if those allegations should prove
to be true. (Hear.) With respect to the gratuity payable
to the convicts for some time after their discharge, I have
made arerngements to have it paid by a superintendent of
police, instead of its being sent by post-office order to the
convict hieiself. I believe there are no other points to
which I need refer. The bill 1 now ask leave to introduce
is ready to be presented to the house, and it embodies
anxious
xrdiroioumv
sips
toi
oor
nt
casonn importance.
thanit
tWthheheye
cnhoant
vhveee
npbri billb
cai
esb iol nyf
the result of the deliberations of the Government on a sub-
the hands of hon. members, they will then perceive more
my explanation. With respect to the
fsytiier au
els
el es
arethat n
eithen g.
pbilla s
sshould e
every
clay, be l
andon g
jcbtsdeleheeecceelstoirihnoyl fdayoe
übgdrtlr:heeeoble.atdetnnei danaldugittnffius,
iefrlscresundaemloerant
it would be desirable, if
come law before the next pal 03sesscis:
ei bn
alde. ,
reading tlh as
shall
e lh; ea
tie
uiltl
presenti sf h
bo uu lsudi
ne blue es
es-
this day fortnight for the
of moro importance should arise I will endeavour to name
a day which shall meet the convenience of the house. The
right hon. baronet concluded by moving for leave to in-
troducerightsi r
hJo.
nt
ph.
lKais .
bill.
GTON said that all would agree that the
baronet had only acted with a due regard to
which the right hon. gentleman
house public ; feelingau dhe
einteibirdienrgeiednfitlis thanks for the able manner in
to what he called the
thewit
with respect
eman had explained the views of
this important subject before the
right hon. gentleman had alluded
mit
to the ticket-of-leave system, but he (Sir J
then exaggerated.
'Considering exaggerated
h, alarm
state
of
fo f
crime the countryw hi
eh
Pakington) should say that the alarm was rather: misdirected.
had existed in the country during the last few months, it
was but natural that a great feeling of alarm should exist
in the public mind •
t that rather
atchee
ko
againstf t
tickets
t s of
state'but that alarm should be directed
leaveof the law under w
pplid to which the
ewcolarsats
criminals were set at liberty in this country than against
of offenders. He wished to remind the house that this
whicha a
subject of wide and extensive interest consisted of two
parts—first, the state of the law with respect to secondary
punishments, and, secondly, what was scarcely less im-
portant, the manner in which
that law was to be adminis-
tered and carried out
• He would advert to a portion of
the subject which he thought had
created as much anxiety
in the public mind as the system of tickets of leave—he
meant the impression which existed that, on the part of
the Government, a system hal obtained of indiscreetly ad-
vising the Crown with respect
to the exercise of the prero-
gative of mercy. In calling attention to some instances of
this kind he begged to say that he had no intention to
make a personal charge against the right hon. gentleman,
for he was rather alluding to the system and practice long
prevailing than to any improper mode of the right hon.
gentleman's exercise of his high duties. The right hon.
gentleman alluded to the opinions expressed at the late
assizes by some of the judges, and no doubt intended to
refer to a charge of Judge Willes at the Warwick assizes.
Sir G. GREY observed that the learned judge after-
wards explained that those observations were made under
a mistake.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that it was desirable, however,
that he should allude to another case brought before the
grand jury at Worcester, in which it appeared that a
man sentenced to fifteen months' imprisonment for high-
way robbery (a sentence remarkable for lenity) was, never-
theless. discharged at the end of nine months, on the re-
commendation of the right hon. gentleman. He bad had
some correspondence on the subject with the right hon.
gentleman, who communicated the recommendations on
which he acted, and he was bound to say that if any re-
commendations could have justified the exercise of the
prerogative of mercy in that case those recommendations
maul I have afforded a justification. They were recom-
mendations from the most respectable men, whose bone-
volence bad led them to do an act which he could not ap-
prove. (Hear.) The impression in the public mind was
that these sentences were not to be carried out. Some
months ago a very respectable woman, who lived in his
neighbourhood, and whose son had been sentenced in Janu-
ary, 1835, to four years' penal servitude, called upon him
(Sir J. Pakington) and placed in his hands several letters 11
which she had received from her son, and which showed
that he expected to be released in the approaching spring
if some respectable gentleman would give a testimonial
his favour. Writing from Preston Gaol, in which he was
subjected to separate confinement, he said that he was quite
well, and better than be had been for lagyears—(laugtr)--
that he had as much good warm fool as he liked an good
bed to lie on'; that he had no taskwork to do, and that he
did just as much as he.liked—(laughter)—that he had nice
clean walks to walk upon, and that, in short, he was en-
joying life as much as any man could possibly desire. And
this, be it remembered, was the moat severely penal part of
his sentence. (Sir G. Gray.—" No part of those sentences
is rt ndergor4 in the prison at Preston. There must be
s ,me error. Perhaps it is all a myth.") He begged the
right bon. gentleman's pardon. The whole of the fif-
teen letters which had been placed in his hands were
written upon the printed forms of the gaol. (Sir G.
Gray admitted that he was mistaken when he inter-
rupted the right hon. baronet.) The writer of those
letters said that
the chaplain of the gaol had told him that
if he would only desire his friends to endeavour to obtain a
testimonial in his (the prisoner's) favour, he might be re-
leased in the course of this year. Now, as the prison au-
thorities were cognisant of the contents of every letter
written by the prisonere, it could not be supposed that they
would have permitted the prisoner to bo under a misap-
ossibility of his release before the
prehension as to the I) .
term of his sentence had expired if thefbelieved that no
'• • xisted. [Sir G. Grey— "Prisoners' letters
such passibility e
are sealed, but not corrected by the prison authorities."
In March, 1456, the prisoner was removed from Preston
Gaol to Portland, and be wrote a letter to his mother in
Sept. last, in which ho stated that he was well and happy,
that he had plenty of food, and wasgetting stout; that he
had been placed in the shoemakers' shop in which there
were 30 men, and that they had the plegeof conversing
with each other. Now, as the right hon. baronet had un-
dertaken the revision of the system of secondary punish-
here was to be no outlet in the colonies fur
meats, and as t
our criminals as heretofore, it was surely of the utmost
that the public should be distinctly informed
importance
that the penal sentences passed in lieu of those of trans-
portation should be rigidly enforced. (Hear, hear.) He
(Sir J. Pekin ' gton) had over and over again contended that
t
it was a great defect havin toe intermediate punishmen
between two years' imprisonmnt and seven years' trans-
of penal
ortation, or its equivalent, and that the periods .
pservitude fixed by the act of 1853 were nothing like equi-
valent for the periods of transportation for which the
tily
were substituted. He was therefore extremely glad l.
his right hon. friend was about to remedy these defects, o
re want-
the latter of which additional proof, if any such we
lled the
ing, was afforded by the letters to which he had ca _
..e
attention of the house. The writer of those lettere,inwhil
the
undergoing his sentence of penal servitude, was
elated
neighbourhood of his friends—he continually
hstsulggfaci li-
that his mother should come and sees im h
wascontinually
ties for correspondence with them,
d•odc he should
saying that after a comparatively short
tilerthe was
rejoin them. them. In the case of transporta.e
e is for at least
solute and necessary separation friar. 1
ralsnwhose sentences
seven years ; and indeed, as no crimpoonotry_
a. practice
had expired were brought back to this
a sentence of seven
which was very unjust to the convicnts
of banishment for
n e
years' transportation operated as if
p._
rovide the means he
life, for unless the man could himse
There was, however,
could never return to this countr hon.Y baronet which he
one part of the plan of the right
He meant that portion
max led with considerable doubt. n were to be altogether
by which sentences of transportatio
matter of uncertainty,
done away with, and it was to be a
anal servitude, whe-
when a man was to be sentenced to
pbee sent abroad. He
Cher he would remain in England or
`mould reconsider this
hoped that the right hon. baronet wo
f all things wanted
tion of the scheme, because what we o
por 2„r been) Was trans-
to get rid of was uncertainty.
(II Octo be regarded as
portation, so far as it was maintai ,
oldie,
or as a boon
the severest punishment for the most
seemed to be left
for the well conducted ? That question baronet. He
open by the explanation of the right hon.
aided as the
P kineton) hoped that it would be reg
(Sir J. a . 0 what had fallen
punishment, but he inferred from
severestect of
the right right hon. baronet that, with the ohs
from
would for thefuture
salting the feelings of the colonists, he
d The right hon.
select well-conducted men to be sent abroa •
rieg theun-
barb. (Sir G. Grey) was hardly justified in compna
w. h
that
certainty of the old system of transportatio it
t which for-
which had recently,prevailed. The uncertain Y
se the
merly existed was merely that of illness. It aro
from
t abroad.
lasi that convicts who wereill or infirm were not sen
d to seven
It a as true that some years ago persons sentence
instead of
e ' transportation were sent to the hulks
yea.s and it had
abroad, but that had long been discontinued,
for many years been understood that a sentence oft
trans-
portation was always carried into effect. One statern.
which had been made by the right hon. gentleman (S'r el,
Grey) was, in his (Sir J. Pakington's) opinion calculated
t d
to mislead the country. The right hon. gentleman sta e
that in 1855 there were 77,000 summary convictions, andt
25,000 convictions for offences of a more serious kind, sat
assizes and sessions ; while in 1856 there were 77,000
The
may convictions, and only 19,000 for graver offence
these
inference which would be drawn by the public fromoo n
figures was that there had been a diminution of 6, 0 i
the number e grave offences. This inference would not,
however, be altogether correct, as he believed the apparent
diminution was in part accounted for by the fact that
into
under the Summary Jurisdictions Act, which
camewould
operation in the autumn of 1855, many eases whiches
were
previously have been sent to the sessions or assiz_n
con.
now summarily disposed of by the magistrates.
.1 ,
elusion the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Paking 91'1 ex 7
pressed his sa'isfaction that the attention of p
his sipun.on
had been thus early called to this subject, and