The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-24 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATTJRDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 24,

--~..

intended
Noble Lord on the occasion to which I alluded, that you - - • -
trilled to ,o witted, in the exercise of that privilege of defence, to. give vent ,
enderP pose some measure of conciliation-and, first, I to those feelings. Yet I must not permit those feelings to
.be
stand that sou intend to propose an enlargement of the mixed. up in the. consideration of the important matters of policy 1
Inrate-Now, Ido not know whether you mean an enlarge- affecting the interests of Ireland.-(. Hear, hear.) Upon all
ent of the grant to Maynooth, or of the grant for the pure that part
.whieh relates to public policy-- to the question of
Posse' f general education.eitsl;.ll,?,Neel!leeleiert.-For general education. future legislation-I trust I shall address myself with that •
tetneer, and moderation, and forbearance, which are becoming 1
grant cONle, LLL-You then propose to increase the
es i general education. lam glad to find that it is so- a subject of such immense magnitude. I hope, also, that in i
d f •re • If from the charges brought against myself and
Per cannot educate the people too much -( Cheers) You
ante educate them
. too much for your own purposes. You
feeelrie,e3ld:cate them so as to make them turn against rut selves, matters of a personal nature, affecting the position of thegen-
tlensen who have been made the subject of criminal proceedings,
re,Yee great security is in the ignorance of the people.- require. If I transgress the rule 1 have laid. down for myself,
settonsi rs and laughter.) You intend to increase the educe-
grant-I am it will be totally contrary to my intention. I wish to
(Hglad to hear that sui.h is your intention. conduct the defence of tee Government, with a per-
Con of the Hon. Gentleman
er, a and cheers.) I will frankly tell you what
-is oar,e. feet recollection of the
I ate dent to du to gain the people of Ireland. Well, who spoke last. Sir, I cannotPosli be diverted from the question
eatkeeext told that you intend to introduce for us the raised by the Noble Lord by the speech of the Hon. Gentle-
eeeeeesie Charity Act-that you mean to extend to Ireland Mr.
jeeee Bill for regulating English Catholic charities. passionsman. I wish. the Hon. Gentleman, instead of agitating the
of his countrymen on the subject of repeal, would give
4,3 ox: cannot do a greater mischief to the Catholics of Ire- us an opportunity of meeting him in argument, for I should not
teee_tnt nto introduce such a measure for them. Ido not haveb any. doubts as to what might be the result. I beg you
el•elacqtlreo the Bill. I ought not to do so, for I introduced the mind what are the arguments on which he has this
myself. I endeavoured for two separate sessions, to night rested his appeal for a repeal of the union. What per-
taattrerkteidte but the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Oxford,
everyversion of history is necessary in order to vindicate. the demand
titteeded evening that it was upon the paper-he for repeal? says the lion. Gentleman, " For eighteen years
out. Trani, ost determinedly, and at last he actually tired me ,up to the eriod of the union, Ireland had the happiness of an
to R,,trie ing no ray that I could appoint for it I was obliged i independent Parliament." An independent Parliament l-
end tee 't nP. I complained to the then Administration, 1 what! the Parliament that sat from 1782 to Ixoo an inde_
and ~ Y appointed Mr. Lamb to bring in the measure, ' pendent Parliament, providingitor the social happiness of
esefre "- was carried. Now that Act was a very I those on whose interests it was to legislate !-( Hear,
Plielble t'lit for England, but it is totally ) Why one of the complaints of the Hon. Gentleman
tee
enacted
reland. The statute of superstitious usesinwaPaTs I himself to the legislative union was, that it was through cor-
es.'' acted in Ireland. The statute of Edward the Sixth • ruption the Act of Union had been effected-( Hear, hear)-
• Pused and liberties of the people had been sacrificed to
live e Only for this country, and it was merely a retrospec- ' that the rights
*as al est; but Lord Eldon determined that although the Act the corruption of the Parliament.-( Hear, hear.) And was
Act, retrospective Act, he would construe it as a declaratory the condition of the people really happy under that Parlia-
illeeird hence the Catholic charities in England were declared i meet? What said Mr.h Gar'saktteadn, of it ? Long before 1782, if
rileee;• but in Ireland that Act never passed. All cha- I remember right, e. What has your independent
tract iris of law
by all
corns for Catholic purposes have always been recognised Legislature effected for
Bill been
Has a Place Bill been passed?
'eh in Itelane. Twenty-five years ago I held i Has a Pension Bill passed ? Nu, said Mr.
!classes ersurn of 20/. annually for ever for the celebration of Grattan, we have got a Bill against Peers. We have
levat oc,‘l°
.the dead. I show you then that there is not the got a Riot Act, see have got pensions without end, and we have
ltlertrnaiansion for this Act in Ireland. The old Statute of i got a profligate' traffic in the sale of the peerage. That was
are, el_ _ never applied to the Catholic clergy of Ireland. Jr. Grattan's account of the virtue of that independent Par-
%eau:rehire, under the common law, and according to Wethe l' t and he said, what has been the effect of that ?It has
illeger lavv trusts for charitable and religious purposes are not
It"cl, be The
reducediamen Ireland to. the condition of a province. Is it true,
%se was necessary for the Catholic clergy of Eng- then, that the condition of the people of Ireland was then really
°bet tit is totally inapplicable to Ireland. But I well tell you happy, or are all the statements at present of the physical con-
D Dublin, and of other cities, from the year
tieue!,9e should do. You should make each Catholic Bishop dition of the city
keet tet "rPoration, so as to enable him to take land-you may nution of the
1795 to 18d00 mf
lerrenelfafanldlaucieLs:oorkdaetluthsieonac.
toaLlodoikmait the account
tse, euiedq_uantity, if you please, but you should enable him to of theotfrtaheesohi
ppine in•terest of Ireland for the ten years that
ten of he,w_leich might go to his successor without
the interven-
;bet see ees-at-law or executors ; by so doing you pass an Act Pads
eeded the union.. I will challenge the Hon. Gentleman to
fiat that to be really useful for charitable purposes in Ireland ; prove the fact that Ireland was advancing in
.prosperity.
*hies fill which you propose will not do so. The next thing fhe policy pursued in Ireland during the period intervening
the f nderstand you intend to propose is an extension of between the years 1793 ane 1800, was the cause of the Rebel-
es ti erre'nebise, and, as I read it in the newspapers, lion ofdand all its terrible consequences.-( Cheers. )
1798,
that if the statement of the lion. Gentleman be
tsees, tee, the abolition of the necessity for payment of all But I
he say,roved that the happiness of the people was quite
Nee etilespst poor rates, borough-rates, and grand jury cess. e
• rue'el
of the social institutions of the country ; but he
"be tarne! i the necessity for the payment of grand jury cess
eolleet ed ? It is the most vexatious tax of any, and is
th ed by independentcannst deny this. that if the Parliament promoted the
officersprospe-
r who are now not appointed by, nor under r
e eentr ipity of Ireland, that Parliament was returned by a small ma-
tte ate, of the Government- -( Cheeees. ) 'these officers j ire of Protestants. That Parliament was composed of,
electedeii entirely by Protestants, and during its existence, there
erseteecuinied by the grand jury, and are favourites of certain
was an Established Church in existence in Ireland. If the
..eel flectreteeen. They are responsible only to the. grand jury
Hon. Gentleman said that the social state of Ireland during
seise, TesSing body ; one set are appointed in April, another in
this period was almost perfect, he should recollect that . the
wie.paytneee are changed four times a year. If you insist upon
Roman Cathceic was subject to great disabilities,
white in ent of the grand jury cess, you will be creating that
that the Parliament was exclusively Protestant, and
'eel yees7. be made a great vexation to a political opponent,
bet see will not compel the payment of the grand jury cess, the Church in its full power.-(Cheers.) I leave to the
to choose either of those points-namely, that
essesea,e.ecer prevent its payment by not making its payment ,
1'1144 .1 te the acqu. •To of the franchise. You must also iHtewna•s Gentlemanconsistent with the interests of Ireland to uphold in its
thee seiZatioes for-in'slisltinng on the residence of freemen- most exclusive, and as be would call most intolerant form, the
lees
the reside, for three months before and three months Established Church, and that still the disabilities of the Ca-
-1 sli the e registry, in the borough. If you insist tho les should be in full force; or that the Government had
'-ery residence of freemen, you will have made a been carried on with that Parliament existing between 1782
efht,e. beelefelLerebda.ngeicrowThle
speakcounty franchise, too, I am told, and 1800, through the instrumentality of corruption-
Ole L e" in no disparagement of the (Cheers)-that the social
this gab .°r- When Ithat I have no confidence in him on not a happy one, and that
yeet His say
.that Parliament did not
condition of Ireland was
and welfare
bathe • measure would bring about the extinction promote,h norl was_ calculatedsa, to promote, the peace
I Ido think that the Hon. Gentleman
efieiaeinnete franchise in Ireland. You should give us the of tldebpeotp
eeteee s only
franchise. The solvent test franchise would wou et erehave consulted the interests of his country, and
/4ilitglitete the county constituency of Ireland. If you adopt th.at course which would be most conductive to his own
give es Bill for regulating the county franchise, you should fame, if he would give us an opportunity of hearing and ex-
tent3.f acquirieg
..
tt • eTerY facile • - • 't
( Hear ) There is not amining those statements, and counteracting these arguments,
tech Ireland who could obtain the franchise under the 801- instead of inflaming the passions of the ignorant by those Mese
Ving yetrit test. Ireland is a poor country, and if you do any- statements which he ventures to make in the face of a British
.eteets eb-enuildhould do it generously,. and do it at once.--- (Cheers.) public.-( Cheers.) I shall now address myself to another
ea7ittese in ive us a franchise equally potential with the portion of the debate. I shall address myself to the motion of
e eees e England, so as to have a constituency of the Irish the. Noble Lord the Member for London, and
.I do ea • that I
jeVish ..1411 in proportion to the population of that of the think h.e will admit that it is a motion exclusively ars-eistrictly
of a party motion-(Tremendous cheers
ie ireleeenties. Recollect, too, that a mats having W. a year deserving the.. name
el' tnei id's as independent as a man with 101. or 15/. a year from the Miteisteriael b.enchee)-it is perfectly a motion in ems-
ele.4tis•rea4s s,,'e, If Totl. legislate for us justly, I shall hail tour fortuity with ancient precedent, and is a constitu-
lie freeetteri satisfaction ; but we must have no restriction of tional mode of testing the confidence in thel Ministry.
Toe se.- (Cheers.) We will meet you cordially But that it .is a party motion, am sure
etlsee *ill
W-
Ice Pert Meet us cordially.-(Load cheers.) An- the. Noble Lord will himself admit. It is not a motion to In-
tel* Your 0- " your plan relates to fixity of tenure. tended into the state of Ireland. The Noble Lord may havlde i
not
stitids of ,serrilasission is-doing great mischief b unfixing the .to pursue this course, but I must say, that he shoe.
elle•rthese
,47,,atctual occupants. A 9 idea has gone abroad that have mixed up any party consideration with the consideration of
to, t'tered "are been ejected during the last six years are to
' --. elite 4-• It the social state of Ireland. I should say, I. will challenge your
such reat misfortune that this idea should have conduct-I will put ou on Theprial-I will separate you from
,e°!repeetaee; but is the case, and the minds of the actual the social sttatemo I Ye'land. Noble Lord did not take that
he moved for a Committee of the whole House on
..;leepe eit,,tsusire unsettled in consequence. Now you
_must
_act ctueursstea,teb
uof Ireland, veil afraid of the possibility of the suc-
d I eseileeleu must act rapidly, in whatever you intend to h
of his motion, and as if he shrank from being compelled
ess tete" e Propose that you should take th.e law of landlord c
le,re set,„ass it was at the time of the union, by repealing inestshat Committee to elain in detail his own views as to
-Nerd "se en the subject which has been passed since. The the course which. should be pursued in Ireland. At the
Ztbey :„Pansot complajine, because you will give them the law moment he gave his notice he said I mean to move a resolution
I 4 hoe 11145 it for themselves, but year after year since then condemnatory of the course pursued by her Majesty's Minis-
. illicllore 0ee...4 rn, aking the law more stringent ea favour of the tees. I will make it. impossible on account of its charaeter to
I,ll°' I :e e° so enable him to seize even the last growing po- adhere to that motion.-- (Cheers
Noblefrom the Tory benches.)
1-e oar f.., you rest()
.rt, e„, th
landlords re the law to the state in which it was before With respect to the speech of the Lord the Member fo.r.
°lees • e cannot have any right to complain. Sunderland, I feel bound to state m conviction that I think it
4'44 lops eineffnavour of landlords were generally enacted in Ire- is wholly free from party bias, and that lie expressed his opinionsr
e of 4,, re they were enacted in this country. The sta- -much as I may differ from those opinions-in such a mantle
es_tillise ets'r'ey, for instance. which was not Passed by the that I never was more convinc.ed of their
mustsincerity and mantis
,eesed •13 ereament until the reign of George 11., was ness.-(Cheers.) But, certainly, I . say, that the Noble
.v.tritlese‘ea.
rnettYniftebset Irish Parliament in the reign of Lord the Member for London, in his speech, seemed
"i'h to -".e. But
. you have much. more to do if you to me to be engaged in the solution of some great
'e • s Jew . a disposition to act fairly by Ireland. You problem in political flexions .-( Cheers and laughter.)
etoe re into
reel •,---(0, the financial arrangements made at the He seemed to me to be trying to obtain the maximtounemosfe_c_.l
8&47t4 a -eel's.) You perhapswill not take the trouble to mination with the minimum of inconvenience
.li himself.—
' _
tliestltie,tiliiotlonto this subject -At' e °consents which have ee issued by the Re eel AS.' (Loud cheers.) I think I could extract from the spirit of the
subject ; but if you will get those eel
are Noble Lord's motion the idea, " only remove the present Go-
Itriset eY will those documents, and to report en them to vernment and place me in their stead"-(Loud laughter)-and
tee° tatm tell you that there never was a greater injustice if that were. his meanie because the Noble Lord certainly
re a. ,than by the financial arrangements at the time of the brought an impeachment and accusation against us-why would
eyetiebil.teeetieheve suffered great injustice by all financial. ar- not he explain his views and policy with regard to Ireland, for at
Dee eof Jr, being made here ; and you will nut satisfy the present he must say that he has said nothing which viesuld compel
f- Y gla,, 'e' and until you do them financial justice. I will him, if in office, to adopt any course different from that pursued
114 in Ore. exult corporation reform. Your corporation ro- by the present Government ?-( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
vtenei inn
i,.. and n.ot
whites .. You dissatisfied one party Did not the Noble Lord say if he could realise his plan he
k y iti,ln 'sower from It, you dissatisfied the other by would: divide the revenues of ihe Church, and give a portion
e tee . git the shadow of power. Give us corporation re- to the Catholics and Presbyterians? But as the
.object was most
'ore-T:111M that which you gave to England ; we demand no remote, and as no chance of its realisation existed, in
f.ltoril .the Ale you afraid of the effects of the transfer of power case of his re-instalment to power, he was bound
. e ih,__ dominant minority? That is past and gone-and even himself by no tangible engagement in respect to the
'stll ee boroughs in which the majority of the population is Church,
.or indeed of anything else.-( Hear, and cheers.)
et °'ic, theproportion of Protestants in the Town Council is I rejoice to see that the Noble Lord has net. committed him-
,. tit , .
i'ster than they are entitled to in proportion to the popula- self to any measure which will tend, in the slightest degree, to
tito.,, All offices are equally open to all, and are bestowed injure the Established Church.-( Cheers and laughter.)
' Ste:le Upon all. Then with regard to absenteeism. Ab- With respect to the accusation thrown out against her Majesty's
Ilk tei,Ml is the curse of Ireland. It ought to be punished ' Government, I think. the
the
Lorded might have shown less
al
mo You ought
extentto imposedone an ni t
14:y44415;0s condition in which his own
ababsentee tax. You have ecrimosntsoeofdorancodntshideerbinrigttle
t emeaatPenrials of which it was composed
keel ° heavy tax upon
bysenyteneur lainnedolinoreitain• house
remembering the Coercion Bill, andehe Appropriation Clause,
, of rbdit so as to drive him back to attend to the interests Ido think the Noble Lord ought to have abstained from throw-
, ere 4 wretched serfs.-(" Hear hear," from Mr. Stafford ing stones at his political opponents.-(
Loud laughter.) But
-
• • , test en•) lam cheered by an Irish ladlord, and one• of the the subject is too important to justify trifling.
Mr ef IfThe Noble
retria.• ish landlords. I will give you full and explicit in- Lord had made me, as the head of the Government, r_e-
ets 'ion for all
e.,,e the e,_ useful purpose,. But you must not peddle sponeible . for everything. Amongst the many charges he
1 it tut, Tongs of Ireland. You must not quack with them. made against nse, was that I selecte.d the present Lord Chan-
-776e votes" el" us a radical cure. Recollect that Harwich with cellor merely on account of his hostility to Ireland.-( Hear.)
, tse.ooo hes" two Members, and the county of Cork with The Noble Lord did not deny his talents,
Lordo r of
ihnistheiffis cmieantteeyr.,
genes es. Only two. The profligate corruption of the bo- in the discharge of his duties. The Noble
ke,stnreitt4 "nutted at the beginning of the session, and the undertaking to answer not alone for the acts, but a.lso for the
e' ''') 1 of the Hon. Member for Bath proved it.- ( Hear, motives of others, said that I selected him for this reason-
tsel!tatch: i"ve come to the Church. You have in Ireland a (Cheers)Tl do say this was an accusation that should not be
teri'lecte7.: e• Perfect hierarchy, unconnected with the State, but brought without the strongest an most con.firmat d : ory eVI•
~Plivo 4". iatimately with the peo le I do not ask you to deuce to establish it. As I had been already in three a mi-
Igitle interfereri) aof his vested intePres•ts No man in Ireland nistrations with that Noble and Learned Lord, in the year 1829,
t ,
nn with
i‘; it 6._ the interests of. any Church incum- and in the short government of 1634.-( Hear, hear.) In the
Nq.,.'.f ir,ing ; but you must, as statesmen, look to
.the year
_lB4l, I was called on to form an Administration; and does
Idq't 'lnd, and see that without giving religious the Noble Lord think that it would be just th_at. I should heve that iOII cannot do
ei Yoe yo Us political justice. I have been said to Lord Lyndhurst-" It is true that I have
.e ntwice
ro ',Rye Pose to give a salary to the Catholic bishops conneeted. with.
.you in office-it is true that at the time when
‘VII4 ter
come he, dare not accept it. The would lose caste. Catholic disabilities were removed, I asked for your assistance
Lords, and that I
Csehtt,lpe d (May enough in your treasury. to pay them. in mitigating the prejudices of the House of
N.,. e bee give would excite but not satisfy them, and the received. your powerful support-but as you have used a hasty
et i -Petable
re !C pp would rather have seats anywhere that was expression, at which offence has been taken, I must ex-
I reee fit thari its
be th were Parliament. Du you mean to say elude you from office, in order to court popularity in Ireland."
would not for the Protestant Establish- -(Cheers.) But Lord Lyndhurst say to me,-" I deny
„41% Nil me rotestant religion would notln a fortnight
stand ? that I used any such expressions.-(Cheers.)
tt 111 paid het your reli ion would fail if there were not after I used the words which were so
aidemisrpresented or misun-
i olie ,et ree structing others? -- .itat e )
th'l4.4 I°l.
in ' g (eh '4 h b 'our derstood, I was taunted by those who
.th. they heard me w ith
alcorporations to
*rile; Thegeen, what a triumph to me as a Roman Ca- stating as a reason for not granting municipal
reete Which Roman Catholic Church ossessed all the Ireland, that the people were aliens by descent-that they die-
tse'eatite_PortioeYeee Church now has-ore, at least, the fered from us in language-that they considered us aliens
their
tee es sine el It. There have, I belive, been certain from their soil, and desired to remove us from.
1 tote Veit isee„_ the Reformation • but the great man country. My answer was, I did not. say so, nor anything re-
`eta of -""t of them -9991. ' t of every 1,000/. were sembling it.-(Cheers.) Nu expression fell from me which any
fete' Y 40man - ou
, .th ou, huCatholics. You took them from person, not of weak intellect or disposed to misrepresent my.
1
4en It else `it'd them into the wilds and fastnesses. It is a words, could have so distorted._(Cheers.)
. When the Marquis
leek t,lse heart the
sameprice upon the head of a wolf, and of Lansdowne, either through kindness or in compliment asked
. -1•4 let'ellid Is-R.ola Priest. You did all you could against me for an explanation, I stated to the House. of
like
Lords, that I
,
et 11 --tf Zone Roman Catholic religion failed in Ireland had rustling to explain, fur I had said nothing
lwhat was
•ItY4 r' -nee ? No. It never was more triumphant. imputed to -(Cheers.) Now, Sir, no one cou dhregre
L tlet_ erehde_ erelleishes ,
ups twenty-three bishops, fifty deans, more than rnysglf-(unless it be. Lord Lyndhurst)-t at
.my
r tit's: tnret4ccine, and some 2,00 u parish priests, with two or Noble and Learned Friend had used the hasty expressions
I , re s, reeei
11% 4414 es
t° each-an etire;unbrok-en hierarchy, in as which he did use.-(Hear, hear.) But, Sir, was I, six years
eeele ' 11l ee•er order, and as perfect as the day before afterwards to say to him, e I cannot advise the Crow.n to ed-
'Wee ./4 3,,,N. "eltded the throne You ha endsspoiled them, vance you to office, on account of those hasty expressions ? -
i etitettri ky c':',2t .he same faith in your Protestantism as I (Hear, heai.) Sir, when I consider that Lord Lyndhurst
the
i l'illcgt bee "°llnisra ? Are you sincere in your faith? and raised himself from the position in which he was born, and
'
the scriptural truth,
este e that and the support manner in which the office of Lord Chancellor has been filled
tt,ies te •eetion, tal
c ttitt?reqilte. Haspceuteherd literature give, are su. . . fficient for the last eight or ten years-an office which has been occu-
r 1 Wh ur'h :t not the blessing of God if it be pied by sucli men as Lord Eldon Lord Brougham, Lord Cot-
illl t y tile' end what greater bulwark can it have than tenhasn, Lord Plunket, . . and Sir Edward Sugdeo-when I con-
e dpersons, and the compa-
e country to be Lei et .- ttc'ee°olsll°,eeelrespanesil th d. •cl 1 ( Hear,) Oh, eider the origin of those oistinguis .e _
i le teoe Pon it • withonger on this subject. But I implore you rative obscurity from. which they raised themselves to the
t stre the e •ofstatesmen.Don't let us see hihest civil
elewsiete es eno_a, ees
41itrtit
t, or Irel situation next the Throne, I think this is the
ie ", vibile iu iy, that the Church of the wealthy has all proudest homage to the democratic principle of the British
e se t of Gee the Church of the poor has nothing but the Constitution.-(Cheers.) It is the strongest practical contra-
,
_ _eering.) Igo back. at twill u ic
'4t
he 13'' - (Ch Wh d ce tion of the phrase quoted by an eminent member of the
a ? lam afraid, whatever 't be, . Roman Catholic party-
t° haeilite 'thie4ct'l. 1 wish • Years ih
have l
ok, et e,, eiseee_oit were. enoug e ay-• " Quorum virtutibus obstat
P 1, 'it
it;‘,tlathted ,!! n commenced between the two countries Res auguoa domi."
icountr • there is no obstacle to the ele-
Cti!. ea the religiousand rancour. It is trine there vationehof men of talent and wisdom, by the buoyancy o their
thre ers b ought t. The time is come when own_ aracter.-Cheers.) It is true that I have had diffi-
, kishtltnehettoitt°ttills:rsi to embrace each other as men culties to contend with, . which the Noble Lord had not, in
Iclaims of candidates for that high office. The
' and when charity should be spread looking to the _ ,
•,f 111:401 end Enan,.--when the odious distinction between Noble Lord had exhibited an
laughter.) of
great boldness and
%it tels:itbolie enshmee--the odious distinction between courage.-(Tory cheers, and It was an example
if •eti -orie said Protestant-distinctions odious in all of virtue, not of meanness.-(Tory cheers.)The sie oes 1, e Noble Lord
4had ever
"e(te'eshalf acePe in thofpurity and mutual had the good fortune to be connected with a man who
e• Cr -h shade rivalry
. see ~ ornament of
it e etre e abol, and justice shall be done to been the faithful friend of the Whig party-the
..
ketlst "leeti '
et tot • -tine Blake the Irish bar-the friend of Grattan-Lord Plunket-- man
tiee'stc. stiederaei and Sir R. Peel rose at the same time, whose name would go down. to posterity
as one of the
e ei k- in e °Presse d • f" 0 d " from the greatest stars that ever shone in the sphere o r
k, t do._ Ilebell. sir 4..a11_ cries . is eminence.
fI• h •
ttimirrt. pill* v Blake, after some little hesitae -But, i , r
S'r Le d Plunket was the sen of an Irish Presbyterian
el 4 ee EL prise minister, and he rose to the office of Lord Ch II ance on-
e had ~, appall ceded toaddress the House. He said-Sir,l ( ,
Hear, hear.) He was advanced to that eminence by the
O (f:ti great e'd by the duty • Noble Lord. But the Noble Lord challenges us with over-
, e --er, -It toile, which I have to discharge, if I
looking the claims of eminent Irishmen to office. Why, Sir,
a *ti . "NO, ) The
House, lam sure, will consider that in I adorned the Irish bar ; and yet six weeks before the Noble
i 4 ky ,2'13 for 4,..t close of the ninth night this debate, lam ' Lord. retired from the Government--( Cheers and counter
of
If tli see, eie pir,‘..._ _
cheers.) The Noble Lord is sensitive of Irish feelings.-
a tkivey....._'nat e a_ Pun 5e of gratifying any personal wish of
(Tory cheers and laughter.) He is jealous of offences offered
I, get „,
.(Hear
eel of rising for the purpose of any idle
to Ireland.-( A laugh) He is jealous of promoting English-
o sepetreelle. eet 4 near. ) I am risinz in the performance of
°lte.*hice • 3' t°wards the H . Govern- 13:1 n instead of Irish to office in Ireland. But he had
• e ffi e the man who was the pride and boast of the Whig
t. ,Ol / stiin I.lllpo,es
n_ onse, ana towards the in o c
if tell.' the •d, the ee,. P°ll, me, considering the situation in party in Ireland ; and to that Irishman-to Lord Plunket, the
A 4._ !, ti..., obligation of addressing the House. Noble Lord signified that it was expedient for him to retire ;
e theW.abilit;'" debate c
and for what purpose ?-in order to gratify the vanity of a
a 1,, is „0 , every ee'uonducted on each side with extraor- Scotchman.-(Cheers and laughter.) Ido not deny that he
O tag
other
_,t ppeetutte g meet has been exhausted, and that
a 44 t ti ernati, "Y of adding anything was an eminent man. Ido not deny that he was a ells in
tp o novel. Wet I have . guished lawyer, of whom I wish . to speak with all respect.
Is instancee to which
lee efebi 'ale, tha e' if lain to discharge the duty which apper- f Still I must say that the Noble Lord, in the . f
l. te iteht e ferns 4 t° Preeent • ee 1 T
Li kv,i„ heror they „en. in a connect., c,ear, and e , p
refer su erse e o.
d d L -d Plunket to gratify the vanity o a
) te, tee e e, P ions and views on the several matters Scotchman-( Laughter and cheers)-
wet, they 0, siouse. I cannot dfor six weeks-for only
S' if I were so
) :lee_iere "It field %sled, h o that effectually without six weeks' t nun; of office.-( Cheers. ) Sir,
9 h„,we, 1,, `, aPPeal to the as been already exhausted. I placed that
_only
lehad the alternative to make such a choice, I
if 64,--.) k order th patience and indulence of the would not retain office one hour.-( Renewed cheers.). Then
4 ' tri Lr'
I have at I may Perform this duty.-( Hear, the Noble Lord quitted Lord Lyndhurst. What was his next
1 euteheie eere4e 4T:dher yet greaterdut to perform. .I topic ? Why, the Noble Lord who stood forward as the
tree.
se Ili oar 'll the that privilege which ybel h ' t tire of a great party, and came to the rescue o h
ongs to t e presentative a
J t% defenceart of the G .
ii Aosee bese Influenced overnment, I stand here , country, occ
.p .
u ied his time in raking into the kennels for the
(Ch ) andquoted the speeches
-set to esealc a by those feelings refuse of election dinners- eers - , .
nun iee consciousness of having been made at an election dinner in Canterbury-(Cheers)--en order
"'"4 unrPerited • imputation, I may be per- 1 to charge me with participating in and adopting the sentiments
I
I
r'.;'
Ili

' here expressed.—( Hear.) This would be a hard rule for
public men.—(Hear, hear.) It is hard to make me respon-
sible for the expressions, either used by Mr. Bradshaw
at Canterbury, or attributed to him.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The Noble Lord is followed by a powerful party,
confederated with him in promoting political objects—who will
vote to night, naturally and justifiably, for the purpose of dis-
placing us, and replacing us with him. But I would think it
unjust to make him responsible for everything uttered by every
one of those who support him.—(Hear.) It would be very
unjust to charge the Noble Lord with the responsibility of
everything that may be said at Anti-Corn-law meetings. It
would be unjust to charge him with participating in the senti-
ments of those who denounced the landlords as being cold-
blooded and selfish, and insensible to the sufferings of the
people. --( Hear, hear.) Why, then, should he make
me responsible for the after-dinner speeches et
Canterbury ? But, Sir, suppose I have always disclaimed
the statements attributed to my Hon. Friend, why should I be
held responsible for the very language which I have disclaimed?
—( Hear, hear.) Is not this the fact, that when Mr. Wyse
was appointed to an important office under the Government, I
declared that I saw no objection to the appointment, as the
Honourable Gentleman was in every respect quali-
fied by character and ability, and his being a Roman
Catholic should not be an obstacle to his promotion.
I consoler this a most important matter, said the Noble Lord,
speaking of the manner in which the Government behaved' to
Roman Catholics. Can you expect them to consent to receive
favours from a Government whose supporters calumniated their
priesthood? What the Noble Lord really wished to effect is to
make it impossible for Roman Catholics to accept favours from the
present Government, and then to turn round and say, See what a
gross injustice you have done to Roman Catholics, you have made
twenty appointments, and yet not one of them has been filled
by a Roman Catholic. You first strive to create an impedi-
ment by reviving unjust prejudices, and then you found an
unjust accusation against the Government for not making
those appointments which you have deterred the Roman
Catholics from accepting. I stated publicly what my opinions
were on the subjectof the position of the Roman Catholics, but I
had been taunted by Hon. Gentlemen who say, 0, these are fine
declarations that you make in debate, but you do not practice
them. Allow me to say, Sir, that that is a matter of great
difficulty.--(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition.) I
recognise those principles which place the Roman Catholics on
an equality with their Protestant fellow-subjects. I say there
should be no practical disability. I speak in respect of every
office; and I care not what prejudice these declarations may
create against me. I say now, whilst in the possession of
power, as I did when I was not, that in every office
to which Catholics are eligible there should be no impediment
whatever to their appointment on the ground of religion.
Since Parliament last met, there was only one office of a judicial
nature vacant in Ireland ; it was an office in the Ecclesiastical
Court ; and I apprehend that no one but a member
of the Church of England ought to be appointed to
that situation. The appointment was placed at
my disposal by the Lord Primate. I stated to the
Primate that I would accept the patronage, but that I should
place in that situation the most eminent man at the bar, with-
out regard to anything except his professional qualifications.
I believe, Sir, I acted according to my promise, in appointing
one of the most eminent men at the Irish bar—Mr Keating.
He vacated the office of sergeant, and another vacancy took
place. How was that office filled? I wanted to
destroy the prejudices which it has been attempted
to create against the Government. I wanted to show
to the Irish people that I did not participate in the
opinions enunciated at election dinners, and that it was not in
the heat of debate that I gave utterance to those sentiments
regarding the Irish Roman Catholics.—(Hear, hear ) I will
take the liberty of reading to the House a letter which I wrote
to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland on the subject of this ap-
pointment. It was not written in anticipation of this debate,
but in the course of the last year. It was dated the
29d August, 1843. ( The Right Hon. Baronet then
read extracts from his letter to Lord De Grey,
in which he strongly recommended the appointment of such
Roman Catholics as had not joined in the agitation, or made
themselves obnoxious to the dispensers of patronage. The
letter proceeded to say that Roman Catholics ought to be
appointed to those situations which they were qualified to fill,
and, although preferable claims might be urged by
Protestants, on the ground of their attachment to the
Protestant Church, still that the rights of Roman
Catholics should not be merely nominal, but that they should
be placed on an equality of civil rights. The letter further
observed, that although for every office which would be va-
cant for the next ten years Protestants might be found highly
eligible, still if Roman Catholics were not appointed,
they were practically disqualified, and what motive
was held out to them to refrain from joining in the
present agitation if every office was closed against them. It
might probably occur that fifty appointments would be made of
Prot=stants who had preferable claims. But why had they
preferable claims? Because they had for a long series of years
been excluded from the privileges of their Roman Catholic
fellow-subjects, and were constantly cherished by the Go-
vernment.. The policy and the laws were changed, and
they ought not to allow the effect of those former
causes of preference to influence present appointments. The
inferiority of Roman Catholics should not be shown by the ex-
clusive appointment of Protestants. Having read the extracts
of which the above is the substance, the Right Hon. Baronet
proceeded to say that Mr. Howley had been appointed to fill the
vacant situation. ) There is not the slightest doubt that if we had
not been anxious to appoint Roman Catholics, several professional
men could be found in the four Courts professing the Protestant
religion, and of equal legal ability.—(Hear, hear.) But did this
appointment satisfy Hon. Gentlemen opposite? No, it did not ;
far from it. Although Mr. Howley was a Roman Catholic,
the Governmont was attacked in the severest manner for ap-
pointing him. That paper, which is the organ of Hon. Mem-
bers opposi' e, makes the following observations on the an-
nouncement of the appointment of Mr. Howley.
An HON. MEMBER—What paper?
Sir R. PEEL—The Morning Chronicle. The Right Hon.
Baronet then read an extract from an article in the Morning
Chronicle, which stated that though the Government had made
many absurd appointments, they had not made one so grossly
improper as that of Mr. Howley. The explanation of the reason
of this appointment was not difficult—it was only necessary to
suppose a little shallow cunning and a little blockheadism on
the part of the Cabinet, and the appointment was explained.—
( A laugh.) This, to be sure, said the Right Hon. Baronet,
was very encouraging to the Government to make Roman Ca-
tholic appointments. The Morning Chronicle proceeded to
say that the appointment of Mr. Howley was an insult to the li-
beral bar of Ireland, and that it was quite clear that Sir Robert
Peel's Government could not continue to govern that country.
—( Renewed laughter.) However, Mr. Howley had the moral
courage to retain his appointment to the sergeantcy, notwith-
standing the denunciations of the Noble Lord and the organ
which represented his party. How had the appointment of
that gentleman been received by the gentlemen of the county
of Tipperary, in which Mr. Howley was assistant-barrister ?
An address was presented to him, signed by 105 magistrates of
that county, congratulating him on his appointment, and
expressive of a deep sense of gratitude for the admirable manner
in which he had discharged the duties of assistant-barrister,
all coming forward to bear testimony to the integrity and
ability with which that Roman Catholic gentleman had dis-
charged the duties of his office. There was also an address to
him from the grand jury, and another which I believe was
unanimously signed by every practising solicitor in the county
of Tipperary. Now, I say, then is this fair warfare against
the Government—is it fair towards the individual horn we
selected ? Is it fair towards the character of an honourable
man, as soon as we gave him the fair reward of his professional
merit to turn round upon him and injure his character and
depreciate his merit, in order that through him you might
strike a blow at the Conservative party ?--(Cheers. )
Sir, I think, this is an answer to the attempt of the Noble
Lord to involve me in the responsibility of expressions which
might have been used by gentlemen with whom I am connected.
Now, as to the disposition to encourage offensive or hostile
expressions used towards the Roman Catholic body. The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Shed) made an appear
to me on that subject last night. The Right Hon. Gentleman
referred to some addresses from the Protestant Operative
Association in Dublin, and asked me whether I approved of
the sentiments contained in those addresses, and whether I
approved of the sentiments which were offensive to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland. I will read the answer to those addresses.
—(Mr. Sheil here made some observation across the table
which we were unable to hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
dropped his voice when he spoke. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man said " warm encouragement was given," and then a burst
of loud cheering prevented the rest of the passage being heard.
Now it often happens that' owing to the business which public
men have to discharge that they will pass over long ad-
dresses presented to them, and not read those addresses very
accurately, and then they return a common official answer,
very civil and courteous, but they never expect that those
answers will be brought forward in the House of Commons,
I am sure the House will allow me to de the Government just
tice on this point. I have had memorials addressed to me to
the same effect as that from the Protestant Operative Associa-
tion. I had one before the agitation began. I had one ad-
dressed to me in the year 1842. It was from the Protes-
tant Operative Association of the City of Cork. In th e
memorial was this passage :—" We, the members of the Pro-
testant Operative Association of Cork, feel ourselves called
upon, by a sense of duty to ourselves, our country, and our
God, to address you on a subject of the first importance with
respect to the best interests and welfare of the community."
The subject was that of national education. "If the homilies
be true, and those who sealed them with their heart's-
blood have raised up a testimony against error which can
never be overthrown, then the priests of the Romish Church
are Antichrist—then are they the special instruments of the
devil."—(Loud laughter.) The climax improves as its pro-
ceeds, but I have read enough to show the nature of this
address. Now I will read to the Right Hon. Gentleman
( Mr. Sheil) my answer to that address. This was in De-
cember, 1842. The answer I returned was to the following
effect—" Sir. I received your letter accompanying the address to
me from the Members of the Protestant Operative Association
of Cork. lam sorry that they felt themselves called upon by
their duty to God to express uncharitable sentiments in offen-
sive language."—(Cheers.) Now, I have shown the Right
Hon. Gentleman what nay feelings were on the subject of
offensive expressions with respect to the faith of the Roman
Catholics.
Mr. SHEIL—I did not think you held such sentiments.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—And I wish to confirm you
in that impression.—(Loud laughter.) I must in justice
to the members of the Association, say that my letter was cer-
tainly received in a very becoming manner. It is but justice
to them to read how they received my rebuke : "We fee
great pleasure in acknowledging the receipt of your letter,"—
( Great laughter.) Really it is a most becoming answer to my
letter. "We feel great pleasure in acknowledging your reply
to the address of the Association on the subject of nationa
education. We beg to offer our warmest thanks for the promp
and gentlemanly manner—(Roars of laughter)—in which you
answer our communication. It was what we expected—(Shouts
of laughter.) The reply itself has not disappointed our ex-
pectations."—( Continued laughter.) There was another ad-
dress to her Majesty on the same subject.
Mr SHEIL—That is from Dublin?
Sir R. PEEL—This is from Dublin, but mine was fro
Cork. My Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Home
Department was requested to lay the address before her Majesty,
and I hold in my hand the answer lie returned. But I had
better not read it to the House.—(Cries of " Yes, yes.")
Well, then, my Right Hon. Friend said " I cannot commend
a passage in the address which I find tends to insult a large
class of her Majesty's subjects, or which, at any rate, is open to
misconstruction; and I cannot think that such an address is
fit to be laid before her Majesty." Now observe, this was in
the year 1842, and I do think that nothing is more indicative
than this of the spirit in which we were desirous of administer-
ing the Government of Ireland, and that we were content to
relinquish support rather than gain it by fomenting prejudices.
—(Cheers.) I come now to the conduct of her Majesty's Go-
vernment with respect to the recent trials. We took office in Sep-
tetnber, 1841, and up to March, 1843, there appeared no great
dissatisfaction with the manner in which the Government was
conducted. I have shown you that we were desirous of abat-
ing religious animosities ; and we did what we could to stop
Ireland..want
wantt
putY t oe
t any attempt to insult the faith of Roman Catholics. We have
beenu
i charged with a desire to govern Ireland by military forcee
k,
g have admitted that the necessity existed for that force
whom
responsibilityCainhe rests for that military foree being in Ireland ?
t
tshoewioroquotthrayt—ouhrefeoxre
-
pectations and hopes of presenting reduced estimates were de-
feated er
„,nhnaaontwdfail to
rlw to know with whom the
fairly
want to
it
before
the intelligent and reasoning classes of
the community, and to
make an appeal in the House to all impartial men.—(Cheers. )
, 1843, s
We took office in September, 1841, and in March, o
far from having evinced any disposition to govern by military
ee i

force, I wi.ll state vrtiat the real force in Ireland was
at the two ineriods that I have mentioned. When we
took office on the Ist of August, 1841, we found the force in
Ireland to be 14,.822. On the Ist of September, the force was
16,257 rank and tile. In March 1843, there were only 13,500
Thus between the two periods that 1 have mentioned the force
was reduced from 16,20 0 men to 13,500.—( Cheers.) That
shows that there was no disposition on our parts to rule with a
military force. In Mitrch lei 43, began that systematic
agitation which was not the consequence of any
act of the Governmexit—for wlaich we were charged
with no injustice or any undue partiality. Noss my
belief is, that there existed a strong and settled deter-
mination in certain guar mrs that we should not be successful.
—( Cheers.) That dot. srmination was taken, and it was acted
upon.—(Continued the ors.) About this time the poor-rate
began to be levied. Th roughout many parts of Ireland there
was great dissatisfaction %with the poor-law—an Act brought in
and passed by the Noble Lord, the Member fur London, and
supported, I admit, by use. But that Act was most unfortu-
nate in some of its provi, flow, for it subjected every occupier,
almost without exception, to the payment of the poor-rate.
There were thousands of isr stances in the west of Ireland wherein
rates from three farthings. to three-halfpence in the pound were
demanded. There was ;almost universal consternation and
alarm.
Act
tcmeie our duty y
to apply a remedy to the blunders
which I don't say anything about neg-
ligence.
Lord J. RUSSELL— Those clauses were introduced in the
House of Lords.—( Hear,. from the Opposition. )
Sir R. PEEL—I beg pardon then. Still, the alterations
were adopted by the Government, and that unfortunate mis-
take I have alluded to did cause a multitude of annoyances,
which created great discontent and vexation in many districts
of Ireland. But I will say no more on these subjects. I con-
fess I was anxious to pay the Noble Lord back in his own coin.
—(Laughter.) I have tried to do so--(Hear, hear)—he
offered it to me in the first instance, and having returned him
with great pleasure that which I sincerely believe him entitled
to—(Laughter)—l will proceed to, ether matters. Well, as I
have said that Act was a most unfortunate one,
Concurrent with the dem and for the rates under it, agricul-
tural distress visited Irelar,d, and its effects were most severely
felt. Concurrently too with these things the new tariff I had
the honour to propose lbegan to be felt. Ido believe that the
reduction of price causod by the tariff, follniving closely on
the demand for the poor-rate, alienated the minds of
the people from the Government—l do believe that
these two countries„ the poor-rate being for the
first time levied at a period of considerable agricul-
tural depression—did. give great facilities to the agitation.
—( Cheers.) The country at that time was in a very peculiar
state. In the West of Ireland you had great excitement, and,
consequently, great congregations of people, whose embittered
minds were all dexterously directed against the present Go-
vernment.—(Hear, hear.) They were all demanding the abo-
lition of poor-rates—l am sorry to say not a few also looked
to a serious inroad upon rents.—( Hear, hear.) Then
unhappily came the determination to agitate for the repeal of
the union.—( Hear, hear.) We watched the progress of that
agitation with the deepest regret, and, after proper deliber.ation,
we determined in what mode to deal with it.—( Hear, hear. )
We are now charged with supineness, and with permitting
these meetings to continue in order to entrap men of eminence
into a violation of the law. I declare here in public
that that accusation is utterly false and wilhout
any shadow of a foundation.—(Great cheering.) We
determined at once not to apply to Parliament for new
powers.—( Loud cheers.) I confess, after the long experience
I have now had of public life, that I am not at all favourable to
any application to Parliament for any increase of the ordinary
powers of the Government.—(Loud cheers.) I don't think
there is anything which has a: greater tendency to impair the
ordinary power of the law than to listen to applications
founded, as they generally are, en local alarms, to get
sonic extraordinary powers from the Legislature in aid of
the Executive.—(Hear, hear.) So far from adding to the
authority of the Government, in my opinion it tends to weaken
it.—( General cheers.) The evil effect of these extraordinary
powers is particularly marked in this—that no man relies on
the ordinary law—nay, the people get out of the habit of look-
ing to protection for, or exerting the ordinary powers which,
the law affords.—(Hear, hear.) Now the Government, our
predecessors, did not take the same course.—(Cheers. ) Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, amongst them several members and many
more supporters f the late Government, charge us with
supineness in the first instance, and then with precipitate
vigour in the second.—( Hear, hear.) Now, I tell you to re-
collect that you were not content to take our course—you
were not content in your time to rely on the ordinary forms
of the law—(Loui cheers)—you applied to Parliament__
Lord J. RUSSELL—And you supported us.—(Cheers.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I did support you.—(lronical
cheers.) did not try to aggravate the difficulties of your po-
Aiart.—,(Cheers ) ,1 entered into no confederacy with those
Who were destitute of any honourable or sincere sympathy
with me.—(Great cheering.) But you applied to Parliament,
and got from it a new Act, and a tolerably strong one it is.
Do you forget it ? Here it is ; and it is intituled an Act
for the more effectual suppressing of disturbances, and also of
dangerous Societies in Ireland.—(Loud cheers.) It is, I as-
sure you, a very stout Act of Parliament. It recites, that the
laws are inadequate, and what do you think it enacts ? That
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, by proclamation, may supersede
the ordinary tribunals of the country, and order the trial of
delinquents to take place—not before a judge—not
by a jury—but by a court to be formed of
from seven to fifteen officers. That is your Act !
We relied on the efficacy of the existing law ; the Noble Lord
did not. He took these precautions against these signal fires;
he passed a Bill, by which it was enacted that "no person
should make any fire, bonfire, light, flash, or blare—( Laughter)
—or any signal by snioke—(Laughter)—or be present at the
making of such signal." This was the Noble Lord's Act ;
the Government thought it necessary, and therefore they
passed it. lam only showing that the Government felt the
extent of the evil to be so great that it asked extraordinary
powers to put it down. Thus, lighting a fire, or making
signals by fire, blaze, or smoke, was made an offence, punish-
able by martial law, and the persons committing it were to be
tried by a court-martial, consisting of not more than nine
officers, nor less than five.—( Cheers.) We asked no such
powers ; we all concurred in trusting to the ordinary energies
of the law, and in not adopting the system of the Whig
Government. We had the support of the Protestants of Ire..
land, and that of the Roman Catholics, who were opposed to the
agitation. We were determined not to avail ourselves of the
offers made by them ; we determined not to avail ourselves
of the yeomanry force that was ready to come forward in aid
of the Government. They made a voluntary tender of their
assistance ; but we knew the consequence of accepting that
assistance.—( Hear, bear.) We knew that the consequence of
accepting that assistance must be the raising of a spirit of re-
ligious animosity in the people; we knew that we could not
have embodied the yeomanry force that was offered us ; that
we could not call the Protestants of the north to the aid of the
Government without running the risk of engendering re-
ligious animosities it would have required the lapse of years to
allay.—( Hear, hear.) We were determined, except only in
the last extremity, to waive any such assistance. But we not
only lost the aid—we discouraged and dispirited many of those
friends. Our only reliance was, then, on the ordinary vigour
of the law. The charge against us is, that we were supine at
first ; to that I give a peremptory denial.—( Cheers. ) I say
we gave public proclamation of the view we took of the repeal
agitation. As Ministers of the Crown we gave it ; at the end
of the last session of Parliament we advised her Majesty to
declare from the Throne her disapprobation.—(Hear, hear.)
You say we issued no proclamation in the name
of the Crown. What proclamation could speak in more
emphatic language, in more emphatic terms, than the proclama-
tion made by her Majesty from the Throne ?—( Cheers.) Her
Majesty said, I have observed with the deepest concern the
efforts made to stir up discontent and disaffection among my
subjects in Ireland, and to excite them to demand a Repeal of
the Legislative Union." Her Majesty further said, "I am de-
termined to maintain inviolate the bond of connection between
the two countries, and I hope my subjects will discourage this
pernicious agitation, which disturbs the industry, retards the
improvement of the country, and excites feelings of mutual
animosity." That was the proclamation made by the Govern-
ment with respect to this agitation. We dismissed the magis-
trates who took part in the repeal agitation. Was that no sig-
nificant indication of the intentions of the Government?
--(Cheers.) You complain that we dismissed them
without a previous proclamation. I believe the Noble
Lord opposite considered himself entitled to dismiss
Mr. Frost from the magistracy for being a member
of the National Convention I—( Loud cheers.) The Noble
Lord had written to Mr. Frost, whom he had appointed a
magistrate—(Cheers)---asking him whether or not he was a
member of that Convention. The Noble Lord, I believe, at
first thought the answer satisfactory, and made no comments
on it. He subsequently dismissed him, not for any. express
act, but for taking part in meetings at which seditious and
inflammatory language was used. I think he did not prosecute
him, but he thought himself entitled to dismiss him without a
proclamation.—(Cheers.) We did dismiss magistrates for
taking part in an agitation for the separation of the two
countries, and we think vs• were justified in it. But we also
gave these instructions to the Lord-Lieutenant : "The moment
you are entitled by law to interfere with meetings that may
endanger the public peace, that moment we authorise you, and
desire that you will:put them down." I want to show tha t the
charge against us, that we remained dormant and with folded
arms, looking on at these meetings, is utterly without foun-
dation. It was our intention to interfere
whenever
the law should enable us to do so--
(gear' hear.)
But if these meetings were not legal, and as they still scon-
tinued to be held then, it is said that we should have called in
the military power to disperse them ; but in what a condition
we would have been in if we had used force. But there were
to
periods when it is said we might have interfered according
•
law. There was to have been a great meeting at Cashel, and
the Lord-Lieutenant sent down a gentleman well qualified to
confer with the magistrates. His instructions to them
were, that if they apprehended any danger—such as a
firm-minded and tensible man might apprehend
then, and nut till then, were they to order the
meeting to bo dispersed ; but the meeting was not to
be interfered with, unless meta of firm and strong minds testi-
fied that they apprehended danger from the meetings of the
people. At a Cabinet Council, held on the 15th April, 1843,
we issued instructions to the Irish Government that we thought
they should consult the Lord Lieutenants of the different
counties where those meetings were about or likely to be held,
and if those meetings gave apprehension to the people, thereby
creating reasonable grounds for alarm in the minds of firm
and sensible persons, then might the Irish Government issue
a proclamation calling upon all lawful subjects of her Majesty
not to go to that meeting; but if persons persevered after
this notice in coming to that meeting, then they
must use coercion. Then there was another meeting respecting
which we had every reason to think there would have been a
collision, and when we heard that there was to be this great
meeting at Skibereen to consider the question of repeal, we
again advised the Irish Governmentd
firm-minded
that if those proceedings
gave apprehension to reasonable an men, then,
and not till then, must the authorities interfere. Then there
and another
were other meetings held at Dungarvon, at Clones.
Why did we not interfere with these meetings? Simply
because those apprehensions were not expressed, and would we
have bees mad enough to provoke a collision ?—(Cheers.)
Where was the necessity for calling out the military but when
we had apprehensions of meetings being held where the public
peace was likely to be perilled? Then we gave orders that a
proclamation should he issued. The magistrates of Dungarvon
addressed the Government, and expressed their apprehensions
of danger to the public peace. The Government directed that
and regularly sworn to
if affidavits were properlythat effect,
then the magistates might interfere, and order the meeting not
to be held ; but no interference was called for, and, therefore,
was not necessary. We had an objection to issue those pro•
clamations where there was no necessity. We had no covert
design to entrap men into the commission of conspiracy or
sedition. We did hope that this state of things would cease.
We wished to see matters return of themselves to repose and
quiet. We wished this pernicious agitation to cease of itself,
without the application of force. We thought it our duty to
take every precaution that prudence with forbearance might
dictate, although you now charge me with a desire to govern Ire-
land with military force, while we were doing all in our power
to obviate and prevent such a grievous and lamentable necessity.
The meeting was held on the anniversary of a certain day—
the rebellion.—
anniversary of the Irish (Hear, hear.) I
wished to conduct my defence with as little acrimony as pos-
sible, and I will only state what is absolutely necessary in
that defence. This meeting was held on the anniversary of
the Irish rebellion and in the county of Tipperary..—( Hear,
hear.) The inhabitants of that county were called together,
and in a short time after it was the scene of one of the most
horrible tragedies in the records of crime.--( Hear, hear.) It
was a county also in which agratian disturbances prevailed.
Why were those scenes selected for the meetings which took

1844,

health, and other imperative duties, from rendering their as-
sistance, and we proceeded therefore to constitute a Commies Zion
suited to the public interest. The relation of landlord a nd
tenant is of a peculiar nature in Ireland. I do not hesitate to
say that there is an unfair and unjust prejudice against t he
great body of landlords in Ireland. There is a presumpti an
that they are guided by different principles from those which,.
guide the laieherds in this country. No account is taken of
the peculiar position in which they are placed, We could not •
think of legislating on the subject without inquiring into the
practice of different parts of the country—the practice of the
north—taking the example of the estates where the tenatits acre
prosperons, and bringing to light and exposure the, se
landlords who pervert the law—and di criminating
between the good landlords, the vast majority, and
the harsh and overbearing landlord. Such, we
thought, would afford' the best foundation foe useful '
legislation. The Noble Lord referred the other night to' st
pamphlet called " A Cry for Ireland." I have read it, anS
am shocked at how legal powers are, as it states, employed fof
the purposes of oppression. The Noble Lord says, why not
bring in a short Act of Parliament ? Will the Noble Lord per-
mit me to ask what has he been doing the last ten yers on this
subject if he thinks legislation necessary ? The Noble Lord
says that a Commission is dangerous. Why that 'is an argu-
ment against every inquiry. We could not inquire into the al-
leged grievances in Wales without a Commission.
With respect to the recommendation of a short
Act, the course pursued for the last ten yeah
was that some individual Member not connected with the Go-
vernment, brought in a Bill, which, having been read a first
and second time, was allowed to go into Committee, when the
unfortunate Member was met with so many objections, that
no further progress was made, and the session passed without
anything being done. We could permit that to be done.
We could permit the useful Member for Rochdale ( Mr. S.
Crawford) to adopt that course, but we thought it better to act
as we have done. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cork
( Mr. O'Connell) recommends the repeal of all the statutes
passed on the subject since the union. The Honourable
and Learned Member for Dungarron (Mr. Sheil)
said that they contemplated interfering with the law of
landlord and tenant, brought in by Mr. Lynch, which gave
much greater power to the landlord. I cannot pass by the
speech of the Hon. Member for Roscommon—and in that
speech I could not see one particle of party feeling.—(Cheers. )
'I he Hon. Member had acknowledged that the Government
had a conviction that, under all the difficulties with which the
case was beset, they had pursued the best course. The Go-
vernment was influenced by no other motive than a just desire
to protect the rights of property, and, instead, of encouraging
vague expectation, to probe the evils of Ireland to the
bottom. With respect to the franchise, I will say that I should
wish to carry out the principles of the Bill for the removal of
the Catholic disabilities. I know not what may be the wish of
the Noble Lord, the Member for London, with respect
to the disturbance of the Reform Bill.—( Great laughter.)
but this much I will say, that with respect to the Irish franchise,
I think it ought to be substantially equal with that of Great
Britain. I do not say that there should be an identity of fran-
chise between the two countries, because that is impossible;
but there ought to be a substantial equality of civil privileges
for Ireland, and compared with all the other parts of the em-
pire. That there ought to be an identity—that there ought to
be a nominal equality between the two countries, is what I
feel confident that many Hon. Gentlemen OR the other side of
the House would be the last to desire, because gentlemen had
been most anxious to deprecate the extension of what was
called the Chandos clause, would encourage the landlords to
refuse granting leases to the smaller class of tents. But I
shall give no opinion upon the subject, and only refer to that
argument in the course of the debate to show that there can
be chance of identity of franchise between the two countries ;
but still, I think, it will be sufficient for the purposes of
this debate if I say that the franchise of the
two countries should be substantially equal.—( Hear.)
Sir, I now approach by far the most important subject of all—
the course which I think we should take with respect to the
Established Church. And I will, without reserve, and with
the same explicitness, follow the course, my Noble
Friend, the Secretary for the Colonies, and my Right Hon.
Friend, the Secretary for the Home Department. I find the
Protestant Reformed religion, and the Episcopal Church, esta-
blished by law in that country for 280 years; and I find the
Establishment ratified and confirmed by Acts of Parliament
partaking of the character of a solemn covenant, as much as
such Acts could partake of that character.—( Hear, hear.) It
was the intention of the Legislature, at the time of the union,
to assure the Protestants of England and Ireland that the
union should not endanger the Established Church in Ire-
land.—( Cheers.) I hope that gentlemen will not intertupt
me in what I have to say.—( Cheers.) At a subsequent period
—in 1829—1 have found that those who passed the Bill of
Emancipation, and used all their influence to combat the ob-
jections of the Protestant portion of the people—always kept
in view that it was necessary to give an assurance to the Protes-
tants, that if they acquiesced in removing the disabilities
of the Ragan Catholics, there should be security for the Es-
tablishment.---( Hear, hear.) I say, that so far as a compact
can have force, that compact has force. At the time of the
union with Scotland it was settled that Presbyterianism
should be the established religion of that country—and so it was
with Ireland.—( Hear.) I was astonished, Sir, to hear the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, in his
very eloquent speech, refer to the subject of slavery, and
state (as a proof that men sometimes changed their
opinions) that Mr. Wilberforce pulled down the present
Duke of Northumberland, then a Member of this House, and
told hfm not to moot the abolition of slavery. In that allusion
the Right Hon. Gentleman drew something upon his ima-
gination.—( A laugh.) I have referred to the report of
the debate, and 1 find that what Mr. Wilberforce said in
explanation was " I never said that slavery should not be
abolished. I only said that the abolition should be
post-
poned until the minds of the negroes should be prepared by
education, to enjoy freedom." However that may have been,
I cannot see how it could affect the paragraph in the Act of
Union.—( Hear, hear.) I say also, that so far as authority
can go, the highest authority is in favour of that view of the
Act of Union. I do not speak of the Church, but of men
who were of the highest authority, as expressing the opinions
and feelings of the Catholic party. Could I name any higher
authority than that of Mr. Burke, Mr. Grattan, Lord
Plunket, and Sir John Newport.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Burke
was the earliest, the ablest, and the most powerful advocate
of the Catholic claims. He wrote much on the subject
of the Penal Code, and those who had afterwards written
and spoken on the same subject, had only followed the argu-
ments which suggested themselves to his no-
tice.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) Mr. Burke did not
conceal from himself any part of the truth, He said you have
an ecclesiastical establishment which, although it is the rah-
gion of the Prince and the landed proprietors, is not the reli-
gion of the majority of the people. Mr. Burke was of opinion
that the connexion of religion with the State should be
held fast. He wished well to the religion of the great num-
ber of the primary landed proprietors of the kingdom—that
religion which was one of the pillars of the Christian religion
in this country.—( Herr, hear.) Such were the opinions of
Burke. Lord Plunket said he would fling to the winds the
question of the removal of the disabilities of Roman Catholics
than compromise the existence of the Established Church. The
dying request of Mr. Grattan wag, that the removal of the dis-
abilities of Roman Catholics might be combined with the
maintenance of the Protestant Church in Ireland.—( Hear,
hear.) The opinion of Sir John Newport, who, though he
didj not rank so high in intellectual endowments, loved
his country, as well as either, he was in favour of
Catholic emancipation, but was of opinion that the Protestant
Church ought to be maintained as an establishment in that
country. The compact was of a sacred and solemn nature, which
guaranteed the preservation of the Protestant Church ; but if
he were convinced that the social welfare of Ireland required
a departure from the strict terms of that contract, and if it
were sought to bind up our legislative functions, so as that we
must. not alter it, he must say he was not prepared for that.—
( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But he must at the same
time say, that nothing had so great a tendency to lower the
character of that House, as to break pledges solemnly made
by it—to make a compact ten years ago, and violate it now.—
( Ilear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) Nothing could
be so destructive to the prospects of future legislation,
and unless ~there be some strong and over-ruling necessity—.
(Hear, from the Ministerial benches)—l will maintain the
Established Church in Ireland, not only on the existence of the
compact, and the opinions of the most eminent statesmen, but
on my own pure convictions.—( Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition benches.) I bring reason and conviction in aid of that
compact, and I do not defend it upon a narrow ground. I do
not believe it would be for the interests of Ireland, or any
part of it, that I should accede to the motion for impairing
the Established Church in Ireland, and I will assign my
reasons. I am not now about to determine what would be
the best measures for a new state of society, in which there
were seven millions of Roman Catholics, and two millions
whose faith was identified with the Established Church. But
I talk of a country in which an Established Church has
existed for more than 200 years, and which has been
guaranteed by compacts, and by prescription. I consider that
under all the circumstances of the case the present is the
best regulation that could be effected. First of all I contend
for the necessity of an establishment, and I apprehend my
right to contend for that will not bo disputed.
You have an example of an Establishment in England and
Scotland, and my conviction is that it is necessary for the pur-
poses of religion that an establishment of some kind or other
should exist.—( A laugh.) Do not take an advantage of an
expression. I am now addressing myself to the first step in the
argument of whether we should have establishments or not.
One of my reasons for maintaining an establishment in Ire-
land, and it is a cogent one I trust, is that if you had no
establishment in that country you would have more bitter
religious animosities than exist at present. I look,
therefore, to its effect upon Ireland ; but of this I am
perfectly certain, that if you establish a precedent
of having no establishment in Ireland little time will
elapse before that precedent will be sought to be ap-
plied to England. The other night my Right Hon Friend,
the Member for Pontfract, gave notice of a motion to make
provision for the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, to which
notice of amendment was given by the Hon. Member for Shef-
, field, to the effect that no provision for the maintenance of the
secular Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland was just or expe-
dient, unless based on such a revision of the whole of the ec-
clesiastical system as to place the clergy of all deno-
minations upon a footing of perfect equality. The
Honourable Member for Montrose would not wait
for the passing of the Bill. lie would not wait for
the motion, but on the day the original notice was given he
was good enough to signify his intention of applying the same
principle in Great Britain the moment that principle was
affirmed. He also gave notice of a motion for an address to
her Majesty, that she would be pleased to institute an inquiry
as to what number of her Majesty's subjects dissented from
the discipline of the Established Church, in England and
Scotland, as well as in Leland, with a view to the appropria-
tion of the surplus revenues of the Church to the purposes
of education, or some other national charitable purposes.
Now, I say, if you apply this principle to Ireland, it will soon
be sought to apply the same principle to England.
I say, therefore, that my opinion is decidedly in favour of an
establishment; and it is decidedly in favour of maintaining the
Protestant Church as that establishment. —( Cheers ) I can-
not conceive a more important question than that which will
arise as to the nature of the relation between an Established
Church and the State The Roman Catholics say, that they
will submit to no regulation by law. -The Protestant Church
is controlled by law. You subject it to great restriction—
you have prevented the meeting of the convocation, you regu-
late its acts—you are jealous of its authority—you subject it to
the restraint of the law, but you subject it also to the milder
influence of favour, and of patronage. You claim for the Crown
that species of influence which is derived from the
nomination of agreat part of the preferments in the Church.
And it is difficult to estimate the effect of that influence on the
Church. What do the Reman Catholics say ? They say we
do not want an endowment. We refuse to submit to any such
thing. You shall not bind us by any law. We will not sub-
mit to the nomination of spiritual persons being controlled by
the Crown. We refuse to enter into any connection with you;
and if you give us any endowment, we will not give you any
control in our affairs. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Mem-
ber for Kildare, speaking with great deliberation and point,
said, " If you try to solve the difficulty by entering into any
arrangement with the Pope, and if you obtain a concordat from
the supreme authority of the Church, even then, I tell yon,
that your regulations will not be observed in
Ireland, and your authority will not be obeyed. I tell you that
the ecclesiastical authorities in Ireland will rebel against your
arrangement." That was the declaration of the Right lion.
Gentleman. Will the Hon. Gentleman then tell me what
equality there would be in giving an endowment to that Church
while it refuses to submit to those regulations which are esta-
blished in this country with respect to the Protestant Church ?

place on the Hill of Tara, at Mullaghmast, and Clontarf?
Every appeal was made by some of the speakers to revive the
bitter animosities of barbarous times, and to evoke that fell
spirit which exasperated the different races against each other.
—( Hear, hear.) Now, look to the day chosen and the scene
of the meetings, and I ask you, was there not evidence of the
existence of a conspiracy to effect a legal object by illegal
means ?_( Cheers.) Not by the present use of those means,
hut by the display of physical force. But it may be asked,
why did you interfere at Clontarf and not before ? Why, this
' is always the charge brought against those who act wills
forbearance. You are charged with having forborne so long,
and acting at length, if you show the least forbearance. But
we interfered with the Clontarf meeting on this account : It
was the second meeting which was held in the neighbourhood
of the metropolis. The Clontarf meeting followed the meetings
of Tara and Mullaghmast, but it had this distinguishing cha-
racter, that there was a military array attending the meeting
at Clontarf—repeal cavalry were invited to attend the meeting.
Were cavalry necessary for the purpose of petitioning Parlia-
ment ? ( Cheers.) They were invited by proclamation to at-
tend as a military body, and military terms were used through-
out the proclamation which was issued from the Corn Exchange.
Mr. ROCHE—It did not issue from the Corn Exchange.
Sir R. PEEL—I think the documents will bear me out, and
lam pretty sure that the first proclamation bears the same
proof of having issued from the Corn Exchange as the second
proclamation.—(Hear, hear.) Am I right in what I state ?
( Loud cheers.) (The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the
proclamation respecting the repeal cavalry, which has
been so often referred to, and which was dated the Corn
Exchange on the 3d September.) Why did we order this
meeting to be suppressed.?, When this proclamation was issued
we consulted the Lord Chancellor, the Attorney and Solicitor-
Generals, on the subject, and we put this question to them—
Whether independently:of other circumstances, this summoning
of a meeting in military array, with military organization, con-
stituted an illegal meeting? because if it did we were deter-
mined on interfering by proclamation. The answer we re-
ceived was, that that particular meeting differed in character
from the meetings which were held in Cashel and Mullagh-
mast, not on account of the numbers who assembled, hut on
account of its military character ; and that it was therefore
illegal, and that the Government would be warranted in issu-
ing a proclamation to suppress it. We resolved on issuing
that proclamation, and the reason why it was issued so late has
been so fully explained, that I will not go over the same
ground again. The shortness of the time was unavoidable. It
has been said that we did not issue the proclamation till late on
the day—till five or six in the evening. I can refute that state-
ment by a reference to the counter proclamation referred to by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. O'Connell). His
counter proclamation was issued on Saturday the 7th at three
o'clock.--(Chews.) Now ohse:ve that this proclamation must
have been printed and arranged, and that it is dated at three
o'clock.—( Hear, hear.) I lament the shortness of
the time, but do not, far the purpose of aggravating
the charge against the Government depart from
the real facts.—(Cheers.) We determined on occupy-
ing the ground, and making such a demonstration as would
prevent the possibility of a collision, and we determined also,
after the notice we gave at the close of the session in the speech
from the Throne of our determination on the subject of the
repeal of the union, and after the dismissal of the magistrates, to
prosecute the parties who were instrumental in getting up those
meetings, and we determined on prosecuting them for that
conspiracy, of which we have convicted them.—( Cheers.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had asked why we did
not prosecute the printers, and my Right Hon. Friend never
had answered that question. The Government would then
have been covered with ridicule for not striking at the authors
of the danger, but contenting themselves with the
punishment of those who were the mere instruments.—
( Hear, hear.) Sir, I will not go into the history of these
transactions ; but I ask the House to remember the references
to the United States, the publication of the speeches which the
son of the President thought it decent for him to deliver ; the
declaration of the son of the chief executive officer of the
United States says—" but the libation of freedom must some-
times be quaffed in blood." The reason why we read the ex-
tracts from the newspapers was, that the writer belonged to an
Association which undertook their circulation. Those news-
papers contained appeals to the army—strong, continued ap-
peals to every prejudice which could be raised in the mind of
the Celt against the Saxon. He asked the House to bear in
mind the scenes which were chosen for their meetings, scenes
selected for the express purpose of reminding the Irish population
of events in past history w hich they could not reflect upon with-
out feeling irritated. He called upon them to bear in mind
the selection of the 23d of May—he called upon them to re-
member the songs which were introduced by scree one—
he knew not by whom—into the barracks of the troops, who
was responsible for the introduction of such songs as the fol-
lowing—
Who fears to speak of Ninety-Eight?
Who blushes at the name ?
When cowards mock the patriot's fate,
Who hangs kis head for shame?
He's all a knave, or half a slave,
Who slights his country thus ;
But a true man, like you, man,
Will fill your glass with us.
Can you mistake the object of the studious circulation among
an inflammable people, of songs like that? Who was the re-
sponsible party ? Was it not the man, whosoever it might be,
who belonged to an association having subordinate officers,
whose duty it was to circulate the newspapers containing these
songs, and these appeals, as a return for the subscriptions which
they received ?—( Hear, hear.) [Should we have been justified,
in the state in which the country then vas, in declining to ap-
peal to our only instrument—the ordinary law of the country
for the repression of such evils ? I will not go into the trials,
the subject is completely exhausted. We determined, how-
ever, to appeal to the law, and we did appeal to it. I declare
that nothing was further from our wish than that the jury
should be constituted upon any other principles than such as
were consistent with perfect justice; or that Roman Ca-
tholics should be excluded from the jury, simply be-
cause they were Roman Catholics. We appealed to
the law and we succeeded ; the offence charged was within
the law. We had only one instrument—we had no Coercion
Act ; we determined not to avail ourselves of Protestant feel-
ing. You make it a charge against us that we resorted to the
only instrument in our power. Let me put the House in
possession of the state in which the country was placed by
this continued agitation.—(;'ear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet then read a description of Tipperary on
the 20th of October, 1843, when fires wer3 lighted on
the hills every night, and the inhabitants were in constant ex-
pectation of an insurrectionary movement.) Was this (con-
tinued the Right Hon. Baronet) for the purpose of petition?
--(lronical cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition
benches.) Was not this the result of that fearful system of
agitation which left us at last no alternative, if we really
wished to prevent an insurrectionary movement ? The only
recourse left to us was to summon the chief authors of this
agitation to answer for it to their country.—( Cheers from the
Ministerial benches.) We preferred the charge under the
same law by which you had prosecuted Vincent—under the
same law under which you had read newspapers and made
parties responsible for their publication. We brought the
charge, not against subordinate parties, but against
those who said "we will prove to you that thi,
do-nothing policy will not succeed ; we declare that
the Queen has power to repeal the Act of Union; we will
drive a coach and six through all your laws; we will prove
to you that we can evade and defeat the law." Well, then
we stepped forward, not in consequence of these
taunts, but in consequence of the state into which
the country had been brought by this pernicious
agitation. We said "We will go before the country
and ask whether these things are tolerable where civil go-
vernment is maintained." I repeat, we succeeded. The
Bench unanimously declared that the law had not been per-
verted, but that it applied to the offence charged. The jury
brought in a discriminating and considerate verdict, and the par-
ties charged were convicted of the offence laid in the indictment.
We have done all this without coercion, without applying to
Parliament for extended powers.—(Cheers.) Having done all
this without the effusion of blood—(Cheers)—without conflict
or collision —(Reiterated cheers)—we find a powerful party
arrayed against us who find fault with us for our forbearance
at one time, and for our vigour at another.—( Cheers ) They
are wise after the results are known—(Cheers)—and every
effort taken during that anxious time to carry the law into
effect by the law has been tracked with all the sagacity
of party, in order to find out some little error.—( Cheers.)
They charge us with being reckless—(Cheers)—with having
endeavoured to trample liberty under foot, with being desirous of
governing Ireland not according to law.--( Cheers. ) If we
had taken such a course, if we had acted too precipitately, if we
had dispersed meetings which we were not legally entitled to
disperse, if we had charged any single individual with attending
an illegal meeting, and had failed, if we had selected some poor
printer for prosecution, and sent him to gaol—(Cheers)—the
walls of this House would have rung to sounds very different to
those with which they are now ringing.—( Cheers. ) You would
have told us that we interfered without necessity, that we had
evinced a desire to interfere with the rights of petition—
( Cheers)—that ve had not the courage to select the favourites
of the people—(Cheers)—but that weehad pursued the unmanly
and paltry course of indicting vengeance upon a printer, but
that we had not dared to attack the powerful leaders.—(Conti-
need cheering.) I will, however, say, in the face of the coun-
try, that in repressing this agitation, we have had no assistance
from those on the other side.—( Loud Ministerial cheers.)
This I may say with perfect truth. (Continued
cheers.) You know what it is to be exposed to the
same -dangers.—( Cheers. ) You have had organised meetings
against the Constitution to contend with.—(Cheers.) It has
been your painful fate to have to deal with the fires at Bristol—
( Cheers)—with the attack upon Newport—(Cheers)—with an
insurrection in Canada—(Cheers)—and if at that time you
found a powerful party ranged against you—(Load cheers)—if
we had taken up M. Papineau—( A laugh)—l do not mean
taken up the man, but if we had espoused his cause—(Cheers)
—if, while your proceedings in Canada were pending, we had
brought forward a motion inculpating you for sending up ex
officio informations when the grand jury had ignored your bills
—if we had tracked every step taken by you, and contented
ourselves with expressing a faint condemnation of the acts of a
man who was advocating the cause of liberty, yon would have
found it a much more difficult task than you did to vindicate
the law.—(Cheers.) I have thus offered a vindication of the
Government for the forbearance which we manifested at first,
and for our determination to make use of no other instrument
than the law, and for our application to the law when the con-
tinuance of the agitation left us no other alternative.—
(Cheers.) I have now to state to the House the course of
policy which we hereafter propose to pursue. I do not
hesitate to declare, that, as the Hon. Gentleman says, we must
consider in the present state of Ireland what measures its pub-
lic interests may require, and I will not be driven, by the
fear of any taunts or of quotations from Hansard, from fully
and freely expressing my opinion as to the course which we
ought to pursue.—(Cheers.) I should be ashamed of myself
if I were prevented by the fear of being charged with incon-
sistency, from adopting any measures which I believed would
be conducive to the restoration of peace in that country.—
(Cheers.) My apprehensions on this important subject are
enhanced by the position of Ireland with respect to its physical
and to its moral wants—by its position with respect to its civil
and political, and more especially with respect to its religious
state. The Hon. and Learned Member for Cork attached
great, but not undue, importance to the influence of the physi-
cal condition of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Ho stated very truly
that the sense of political grievances would be much less if the
physical condition of the country were better.—(Cheers.) But
when he was demanding an exact identity of the franchise, I
wonder it did not occur to him that, if wealth and intelligence
are to be taken into consideration in the bestowal of the fran-
chise in a country where seventy per cent. of the population
were in a state of absolute destitution, it must be
more dangerous to grant an extension of the franchise than in a
country where such a state of things is not in existence. There
is one subject, however, in the consideration of which, without
reference to political questions, we can all unite. I mean the
improvement of the social condition of Ireland—that was a
matter of the deepest consideration with us last session. The
Hon. and benevolent Member for Rochdale brought in a Bill
towards the end of the session, for improving the relations
between landlord and tenant. He promised the Hon. Gentle-
man to introduce some measure on the subject ; but we found
it was a matter involving such vast interests, that we could not
legislate on it safely, without full previous inquiry. We,
therefore, advised the appointment of a Commission,
composed of landlords of Ireland, distinguished equally
by their rank and by their kind consideration for their tenants,
and to that Commission we intrusted that inquiry. In order to
show that no religious feelings were mixed up in the appoint-
ment of the members of the Commission, it was certainly our
wish that it should have consisted, in addition to the Earl of
Devon, of two Protestants and two Roman Catholics. The
gentlemen applied to were prevented by considerations of