The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-11 00:00:00

FACTORY BILL.

In reply to a question put by Lord J. MANNERS,
Sir G. GREY said he should bring up the report on
he Factory Bill as the first order of the day on Friday.
NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. HUME moved for a Select Committee to inquire
into and examine the various reports, statements, and
plans of the architect relative to the New Houses of
Parliament, and also into the manner in which the works
have been conducted, and the different estimates made,
with a view to ascertain the cause of the great increase
of charge above the estimate for the plan delivered by Mr.
Barry, and examined by proper officers, amounting to
the sum of 707,0001., on which estimate the sanction
of Parliament was obtained for the adoption of the plan;
and that the Committee be instructed to obtain from
Mr. Barry plans and estimates of all the additions and
alterations made by him upon his own responsibility;
also those that have been made at the suggestion of or
under the authority of the Lords of the Treasury, the
Commissioners of Woods and Works, or any other par-
ties; also what farther plans and projected works are
intended to be carried out for the completion of the said
Houses of Parliament, with proper estimates for the
various items, so as to arrive at the total expense for the
whole building, fittings, and decorations. He said the
object of his motion was to put an end for the present t
the proceedings of the Committee of Taste.—(Hear.)
On a former occasion the House refused to grant money
for certain pictures for the new Houses; and his object
now was to request the House to prevent any further
expenditure under the direction of the Committee of
Taste, it being clearly super fluous for what he called the
substantial accommodation of the new House. He, there-
fore, sought by his motion to prevent any further exPendi-
turn under that head. The second object of his motion
was that an inquiry should take place with a view to
the examination of the various plans of the
New Houses of Parliament, and also as to how the work
had been executed, arid particularly as to the great in-
crease of the cost over the estimate, amounting, as ho
had been informed, to the sum of 707,0001. His
motion contemplated the giving accommodation
to from 420 to 460 Members in the New House.
The lobbies too were lamentably deficient; the other
day, when they divided in the New House, he was told
that although only 287 Members divided, the crowd was
inconvenient in the extreme. Also, the accommodation
for strangers, and the Committee-rooms, were far under
the standard laid down in the resolution which had been
come to by the House. 99 tenders were originally sent
in for the building of the House, out of which No. 64 in
the list, which was Mr. Barry's plan, was chosen by a joint
Committee of both Houses. He (Mr. Hume) bed at
that time doubted Mr. Barry's estimate both of his
original and his improved plan, because he bad reeeivrfd
very different estimates from valuators of very high
tanding, and when Mr. Barry was examined before the
Committee he had submitted him to a strict question-
ing, and had succeeded in showing the Committee that
there was very little reliance to be placed in those esti-
mates, although they had before that authorised him to
proceed immediately with his plans. Then there was a
report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests in
1837, in which it was stated that the erection of the
New Houses could not be executed according to the
drawings of Mr. Barry for the sum of 707,1041.. the es-
timated cost. The House then determined deliberately
not to proceed until the estimates could be ascertained,
and on no account to exceed that which was stated.
Whatever might have been the reasons why that calcula-
tion
turned out so defective was to him (Mr. Hume) un-
known. Whether they were occasioned by the additional
works of Mr. Barry himself. or by any other person,
whether by the Committee of that House orba the Com-
missimeri 9f Winds awl FortiffilloPar. Bete) did

d
not know; but seeing the state to which they -1-
rived, with the large sum already expended, and ietseir
the uncertainty of even knowing what the limits of
expenditure might be, he thought the time had artly.e'f:
for putting a step to the proceediegs of the Cooaltt!`
of Taste. He had heard that very day that it
an
contemplation to pull down the whole of the houses "lee
ese,"s ;b•
jaeent to the New Houses of Parliament on the w
f Bridge-street, including the law courts. He :ere
mitred that the deviations from the original plan woe,
of a nature that ought really never to have been seer
It was originally intended that her Majesty was to e the
in her carriage at the side of the grand tower leading t°ll`ce
House of Lords; but when the pillars of that ensultest
were proceeded with to some estent, it was /bun' op
there was not sufficient width to admit the carrisgePired
ing without taking out the horses, and the pillars reclu,e.
to be pulled down, in order that the defect neightt,le Quote
died. Taking then the whole subject into consiae% be
and without wearying the House with further deal Los
would'simply say that if they permitted such grieveeure.
to continue they would not deserve the contideiecto the
posed in them by their constituents, or be eniiileuthe re-
character of independent men. It might be ins,soioa
collection of Hon. Members, that on a late "'s' sten
a Peer, who was a member a the C°t°- lee•
of Taste, presented Mr. Barry with amehl•
dal, at a meeting of the Institute of libelled
tests ; and if the House had ever been pot to
by any one it was by that Noble Lord. He wa! taste
be understood in the least as doubting Mr. Barry 600
or his genius, or his imagination as an architect, bee0
line
he was only now dealing with him in his °urine...*
with the building of the New Houses of Farhat:ll des,
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord to whom he sTI °hoe
Earl De Grey, was reported to have said, "I 'iced
read that your predecessor, Sir Christopher Wre%eter
to see the completion of one of the greatest ,wee
ments of his genius, St. Paul's, and I
trust th°
good fortune may await you, and that you Will °e the
welsh
completion of the magnificent building en 0 ere
you are engaged. Sir Christopher Wrea:es,
sad
gaged thirty-feur years in the erectiote9l-st-Jers,
you have not yet occupied half that tiale.' is
Now, would the House repose confidenc°,o the
Commissioner who did not look forward,. joss
completion of the new edifice before We, Tea
of fourteen y.ears.—(Cries of " Hear, bee to
Noble Lord, after alluding to man! PurP„°tl on r
which the building -was to be devoted, we e Wo°
say—" Sir Chrisfppber Wren had to deal with nihee cese
knew *hat t 1)03
hey wanted, but! that has not °lOOO
with you.—(Laughter.) Sir Ohristopher Wren '
sorry to
were fow, yintreare-legipn.—(Laughter.) lam "'jib
gay that the august assebebly which has moat to dos 011
the erection of, this magnificent structure 11°9(1001
number of questionsto ask, makes suggestion", °lisieteci•
criticisms oo a subject with which it. is not aeclnifosse
The Hon. Member concluded by asking the "--
disallow thevote which bad been proposed.
Mr. B. OSBORNE seconded the motion. Asti
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQu' owlet
not sorry_ tat the present motion had il,,,eenfpr to'
but. he was' sorry that the Honourable L° sots
mixed - up two separate and distinct e'bored
together in his speech. He must say that he .4 of
the House would not accede to tke in°tl:o lets
the Honourable Gentleman. With regard feet
Fine Arts Commission, the Government had 1°513g c't
proposed an alteration in the mode of disP°6ed of
the grant to that Commission, and now, in'ht;esets t°
every year a statement being made of the me," eas
which the grant was to be applied, a certain. au" s of
-
annually put at the disposal of the Commissioeer,fiel
Fine Arts. He was certainly surprised thath tbe
regard to the latter part of his sP°°c,il b°
Honourable Member had not waited !Oro ea
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had, etir,
the table a return of all the sums expended 'je
Houses, an imperfect copy of which he hese' ';eitie'
hand. Those returns would show how far the 'II the
a
estimate of Mr. Barry had been exceeded, ae in
reasons for that excess; sad the House would teeing be
a much better position than at present for deoiu;,;seer,
the merits of the case. But, under any eiretinni`ibeele
he did not think it would be desirable that thel7reurr
, appoint a Committee to examine into all the -sldis;
stances connected with the progress of the new; "6,--ct lass
since the year 1837, as they would then be inin!eeds°',
interminable inquiry, and as a Committee which toe"
in the year 1844 had investigated all the !tee,eigiesi
in the matter previously to that period. TDO
estimate of Mr. Barry for the cost of the n
ateheelteeonbt,
portion of the new Houses had been 682,0001. col'
a considerable addition had since been made to Pole.
of the edifice; but that addition bad been.„ tbes
for the most part, for works not includeti
estimate. The gentlemen employed for the' 1134
of inquiring into the estimate of xr' reett,:
had reported teat it was a fair an necks.
able one; but had also stied that a further_e"„rse
ture might be necessrry for other purpose/0'1404j,
the purchase of the site, the damming up of th.,' .013'
and the nking of the foundations of the buildl;geit
that fun' er expenditure would, as they bacil.
- teidAi"
amount, in their opinion, to 129,000/. All t'Tineare,r
O
tionat seurees of expense had been incurred, n t.„-olitr
with the knowledge of the House. The CeLt err
which had sat in the year 1844 had reported Theeo°
musty to that period some alterations bad bee' 000'
in the plan of the building without any adequate s',
rity; but they had also stated that those alteratiatit, teee
great improvemente, and that they approved °ROO
having been made. His Hon. Friend had cooPnied 01,
that a certain pillar had not been erected es ONE; Pi
the plan submitted to Parliament But the fact '"s.gil*
found in
that pillar, although it was to be the °ri
plan, had been omitted from the pi of which e g 1,36111-1
Houses had afterwards approved. He an
should obeerL
many sources of increased expense had arisen d;".letili
progress of the works. It had been thought detthbos b. a
instance, to employ a better kind of stone; and b"-
led to an increased expense of about 23,000 e )4 elf
also been resolved that metal sashes should he tea
l
ployed for windows instead of timber sashes, ltioe°
ornamental carving should be adopted. The °um a r
expense created by the latter change lied aniti,:eses''s
about 82,000/, The purchase of the site, the 0.-„(10-c
mutt of the river, the sinking of the foundationet se ;
improvement cf the sewerage, had led to au
183 0001. Surely it was no impeachment of .t-esetll
;
faith, or of the ability of Mr. Barry that the'ueee t'et-
should have led to an increase of expenditure.,°niste
amount in which he had calculated in an e°7l,- ftsiga'
which these works were not included. Again' eestel
of iron had very much risen since that estimetesisl
been made. He believed the increased cost of 03,000
since that period had amounted to not lees than ea red
Thee again, the cost of the system of warming airineluti'f,
tilation which had been adopted had not been "eitre''t
in Mr. Barry's estimate, and it would surely be in tb
make him answerable for the cost which bit' ;etre
way been incurred. The present estimated elr to fr
the building was 2,000,0001.; but in that estio.joia'
included a sum of 200,000/. for warming and Yel'el-lelse tas
and for making the building fire-proof. lie baur; tee,
observe that in the orignal estimate of Mr. Biers"( tet';'
had not been included the cost of furniture and roe ci tIO r
which would amount to 500,000/. In shot t, he I:',i'ste fir
the amount of the expenditure over the 034.71, et
l 9
works included in the estimate had bu,,etied°,ll,
200,0001.; and in that excess were included l'er tre
r ber .06
tionsl cost for improved materials, and the fur tt"j,
dittonal cost which had arisen from the length
epote
over which the works had been spread. 11° rio tts,a!'co
however, that the House would, in his oPiei °steer s°"-es
better able to form a correct judgment upon "m" jece•" t
after they should have received the returns 1,15, be
meant to lay before them, than they could P°''to the
that moment. His Hon. Friend had alluded fr
DT 0 at
commodation in the new House of Commons'
estoo
believed there was a great difference of opin.iens,afhea-n;
subject.—(A cry of " No.") Well, be bad iii it.
at
two or three opinions, at least, with respo t,„°a t'iti
they would, he believed, have a morning sitt"sistiogsr
House to-morrow (this day), and an svenipg :rjs, P;00
the course of the week; and they would afterfie-,satlitee'et
haps, be able to come to something like Os 'Toed t'lie
decision upon that point. But he readily' eu°:," itrcls` t
it might be desirable to have a Conssitte:`,;egliYie..
into that subject, while be thought that they sleaoss'or
then to appoint a Committee to institute a°
terminable investigation into all the pro(-ee
netted with the progress of those works.
BURR
After a few words from Sir C. BUB'"--
01
were inaudible in the gallery, ;0 on tb°
Sir R. PEEL said that although the qUelSt-°,,,tan
the Hon. Member for Montrose proposea °bet
opinion of the House was the adoption or re)is
sj,
particular vote, he should say a few W°L epee;
,sot
which had occupied about nine-tenths of sout"_,o'
the Hon. Member—namely, the present ItAt;
sea
large edifice intended for the reception of t fare' I')
of Parliament. The Hon. Gentleman hadsr, Pfieg
address that had been delivered by his 01: reen:o!
Notle Friend Earl Do Grey to Mr. wiltsßarrY tP-00'
him on the part of the Society of Architects. f his blo
in admiration of his genius, and approbation °lli, 140
op'
duct. Now he (Sir R. Peel) rejoiced the,!,o the' °Pie
Friend had presented that address, and toe:oo6o%s,
portunity of informing Mr. Barry of the ills eonn'os.
which he was held by the architects of jaw thitseit'
He was sure that his Noble Friend, in Ist use ° ter
dress, had not meant any disrespect to the el° bt to e?
mons. But his Noble Friend had a perfect risg (.61srset
tain his own opinions upon that subject; en
mine e"jto
Peel) submitted that the House of Olio OP/110ft
not to be so very critical as it was wifices.-- the
the free expression of opinion in other P,eiveelve° the
hear.) They ought not to claim for t"to ethers:bleb,
right to condemn Mr. Barry, and deny wittee ioeo
right to defend that gentleman. The L'°°t3l,,, sari 1000 f
had sat in the year 1844 had stated that t bis, p.
see
no blame to Mr. Barry fur the alterations;_ntos tn.vest
and that they had every reason to belie
_coninece,e'd
alterations would be conducive to the efsnLeble
the general effect of the building. But •Isesi
parrY
_sain
Earl. De Grey had intimated that Mr. own
~.tbe
with- persons who had not known their
__,,ore tbe oj,
Now was the lion. Member for Montrose ar..6-001re.r.)
had himself been one of the main suggeet°,:eose, he's,Dt
teratione in the House of Commons7--k-n the-0n,16; j
He wished to remind the Hon. Gentleman Aqclo,;
to be tolerant of differences of opinion.
.%eOO,O
eon
am," from Mr. Hume.) So . the Hose
bad rt
and-he (Sir R. Peel) would show him that ne:n.
_o he
to be so.—(Larighter.). Lord Besburough, a ibst,
t or a of "
dense les:fat:tepee Committee of 1844, bad ate
tt
banSeje
hacl beep extremely reluctant to consent -° astieece
see,
the plan of Mr.. Barry, anelobiefly in nunse.'steptienget
observation matre to him by Sir Benieinal'aueb•
that if he were once 'to consent to anY 'eto; his
_he would be involved in all sorts of clitfielo_, oia
Noble Lord was then asked who overruled tniveg" shere-ee,
reply was, he recollected Mr. Hume lutelf u the
(Laughter)—and stating that it was ataba.
_,..„0 sra
sary that the Sergeant-et-Arms, who h " eeSl7,.
House, should have apartments built f0r,ii),!;11,411 a'e
Grauville ,Somerset asked in what elier_teci'l°4'"
Abe
made that obeervationrand the answerweeir; _tv6;it 7,10
Member of the Committee. He way-
a ed orldrTh"
Vim obleryotion prc-ig r.