The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-09 00:00:00

TILE SUN,

be sale ti thhs year for the eegravings of the large terms
It the rest:, of the, large :wens were published, all the
seeie.ry isepte.ements pso'isceed for those lecaliti-s
stsielt oat. There W. is fatio
cempletion of the tri4encreelrical tiur-
at and its heel, and the ordnance
survey levels. But, eltogeher on the estimate for the
survey, there was a diminution of nearly 7,000/. Corn•
paints had been made by various Members connected
with Sccternd of the elowness of the progress of the
survey iu that country ; tin alteration, however, had
iat-ly bean ma's in that respect, and in consequence of
representations from Edinburgh, it was resolved that the
survey should be proceeded with thereat once, instead of
the county of Wigton. With respect to the R frit Mi-
litary Academy, there was a reductieu of nearly leooo/.
this year in the vote for the est ablishment at Casehalton.
In the item for the establishment there was a small in-
crease. The last vote was for the non-effective service,
ou which there was an increase of 5,8771.. which wss
the natural consequence of the reductions made in the
effective force, lie did not know that there was any
other item on which he need dwell. lie might observe
that no person had been allowed to retire on boa or full
pay, except in accordance with the rules aed regulations
of the service. He had occupied so much time already
that lie need not further dwell on the subject; but he
had thought it re cessary to go through the recommen-
dations of the Committee of last par; and i,o,e with
those estimates which he had detailed, and with the re-
port of that Committee, it was competent for t'se Ilouse
to acquire for tlenaselves all the information they might
require on those various and complicated estimates, with
which he could assure the House it was no easy task
to mike oneself perfectly acquainted. He asked the
House, then, to give a unanimous consent to those esti-
mates—nut because they had bee; framed solely to meet
the views of any persons, who might object to them
hereafter, not solely because they had the merit of
showing a diminution for the present year of 198,000 L,
as compared with last year—but, because they
had received the anxious consideration of Go-
vernment, and because they had been framed
solely with regard to preserving the efficiency
of the service. He should be ashamed to propose a low
estimate whereby the eflicieccy of the service might be
impaired; and, at the same time, he deemed it his duty
to ask the sanction of the House for an expenditure re-
quisite to preserve the establishments of the country in
an efficient state. He hoped, then, the House would
express their confidence iu the Government, and thus
inspire confidence in the country, by satisfying it that
the money which they collected in the shape of taxation
for the purpose was not expended in carrying on the
public service of the country without being wisely, ma-
turely, and carefully considered. He would then pat
now in the hands of the Chairman the first vote, which
was for the number of men required for the ordnance
military corps—viz , 14,569 men.
Mr. lIUME bore testimony to the unremitting atten-
tion with which the Gallant Officer who had just sat
down had attended for four months at the Committee of
last year, and the ability and readiness with which he
bad given all the information in his power on every
point; but he reminded the House that the responsibility
for expenditure for stores did not rest with the ordnance
officers, who were in fact little more titan executive
officers, for they were obliged to supply store: to the
army and navy, when applied for by those arms of the
service. The responsibility then rested with the Go-
vernment, and from them he wanted to know
why it was that the reductions of the present
year did not go back to a standard of a re-
moter date. For instance, the number of artillery-
men in the year 1792 was 4,346 men ; in the year
1828, it was 8,682 men; whereas now it was 14,000 men.
Wbat circumstances had occurred to render so great an
increase on those years necessary? The expenditure for
artillery in the year 1792 was 151,0001., in the year
1828 it was 471,000/., but now it rose to 711,0001., while
the number of battalions was raised from ten to twelve.
What was the cause, then, of such a vast increase?
There were no circumstances which had occurred to ac-
count for it, and it was, therefore, for the country to de-
cide—and it would decide before long—what should be
the extent and cost of those establishments. The in-
crease in those military establishments was a sarcasm on
the civilisation of the age. It was monstrous that,
during the last twenty years they had been endeavouring
to educate the people, and yet in direct proportion as the
country had become civilised they had increased their
military farces. The evidence of Captain Hastings, in
1844, showed the panic that prevailed, and the result was
that the country was armed to the teeth, and fortifica-
tions erected everywhere. The Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber had stated that it was necessary 80 batteries of can-
non should be kept in this country. This was sufficient to
make every man reflect upon the cause. In his (Mr.
Hume's) opinion it would be far wiser of the Govermeut
to study economy and the reduction of taxation than to
keep up batteries in all parts of the country. If the mili-
tary department of the ordnance was united with the
army, and placed under the Commander-in-Chief, the stare
department would be carried on at one-tenth of the ex-
pense. There was a report in existence, which was signet
by five members of the Cabinet, which recommended
that arrangement. Why was it not put into execution
now, when they had the power of carrying out their re-
Corded views on the subject? That question had been
hitherto evaded, but he (Mr. Hume) hoped, neverthe-
less, that the Committee up stairs would enforce it as
far as they were able. That House was placed in a sin-
gular position; they had the nominal command of the
public purse; but in this respect they had no c Altrol
over the accounts, and they might as well leave the
whole expenditure to the Government for any thing
they could do to check it. The Hon. and Gallant Officer
deserved the credit of candour for his statement; but the
reduction proposed by the Governu • it was so trifling in
its character. that he (Mr. Hume) could scarcely accept
it us such. He hoped that half-pay officers iu the artil-
lery would be employed as barrackmasters, storekeepers,
and generally in other civil duties of the ordnance de-
partment, and non-commissioned officers upon pension
as clerks; this would save greet expense to the coun-
try. That these things, however, would be done until
the country ha 1 a Minister-at-War, responsible for the
entire military department of the state, he did not ex-
pect. At present the land was studded with ordnance
stores, notwithstanding the advantages offered by rail-
ways, and though any amount of material might be ex-
pedited to the most distant parts of the country in 24
hours. He (Mr. Hume) believed that there wise
not a single individual connected with the artillery ser-
vice on any of these establishments. This showed at
least that no peculiar education was necessary for em-
ployment in the ordnance. To reduce these establish-
ments would be a saving of 100,0001. to the country.
The day of reckoning would come, and he believed it
was not so far distant as .most Hon. Members calcu-
lated. He agreed with the Hon. Member that the
House of Commons, and not the Government, should
bear the blame of this extravagance; but there was no
hope of amendment until there was a large measure of
Parliamentary reform. To show the indifference of the
House to the expenditure of the public money, he (Mr.
Hume) needed only to state that he might during that
evening have more than once stopped the business of the
country, as there were not, on several occasions, so
many as forty Members present, of which there were,
perhaps, two or three on the side of the Opposition.
tie (Mr. Hume) thought the artillery should be made t•
do the duty in garrison towns, which would enable the
House to reduce the amount of the infantry. He had no
objection to the increase of the artillery if the infantry
were reduced; but he had a decided objection to the in-
crease of both. He saw no reason why 60,000 in arms
should be needed for this country when 45,000 was
found sufficient at the worst periods. Neither did he see
any necessity for keeping up a large military force in
the colonies, nor for keeping up ordnance stores, when
material, which could be easily procured by contract,
was permitted to perish.
Colonel CHATTERTON, as a military officer, ex-
pressed his great gratification at the statement of his
Honourable and Gallant Friend. He, for one, wished
the artillery to be increased rather than decreased, iu
the interest of humanity as well as the country. It
was the most effective arm of war in an engagement.
Of late years the greatest artillery engagement fought
by the country was that of Lord Gough's ; an engage-
ment quite as effective in its results, and much more
merciful in its character, than, perhaps, any other on
record.
The vote was than agreed to, as was also a vote of
652,755/., for pay, allowances, and contingencies for
14,569 officers, non-commissioned officers, and men.
173,8371. for the commissariat and barrack supplies.
Mr. HUME considered the barrack establishments
of the country quite uncalled for. If civilization pro-
duced nothing better than that result, all he could say
was that civilization conferred an equivocal benefit upon
society.
The vote was agreed to.
66 9611. for the expenses of the Ordnance-office.
Mr. HUME maintained that if the military depart-
ment of this office was transferred to the Commander-in-
Chief's office the country would not have to pay 80,0004
a:year and upwards for the purchase of stores not worth
more than 100,000/.
Colonel ANSON maintained that no department of
the Government was more severely worked than the
Ordnance-office, and he assured, the House that the
Hon. Member was altogether mistaken as to the amount
of the business transacted. He did not believe that the
amalgamation suggested would have the effect the Hen.
Member predicted, for no great establishment could be
broken up, and its business transferred to another depart-
ment, without a very large increase of expense. The
Hon. Member quoted the establishment of 1835, and
said the cost was only 1,135,0001., but the real cost was
1,497,0004 As to the employment of officers in the
civil departments of the Ordnance, it would not succeed
in practice; because they were not so fit for the several
situations of storekeeper, &c., as those who had been
brought up to them. Besides, as these persons looked to
such situations as the ultimate reward of a life spent in
the service, it would be unjust to deprive them of that
reward by interposing other persons.
Mr. HUME stated that if the military department
was separated from the store department of the ordnance,
as it was in every other part of the world—in Bengal,
for instance—the expense would not be one-fourth,
there would be no waste, and there would be no ac-
cumulation of materials worth 6,000,0001., without
any inquiry at to whether or not they were useful or
obsolete. Neither would there be 221 individuals
needed in Pall-taiall to manage these stores, With refer-
ence to the Hon. and Gallant Officer's statement on
the subject of the cost cf the Ordnance in 1835, he (Mr.
Hume) held in his hand a return ordered by Mr. Baring,
and signed by Mr. Parker, in which the cost for the
three years were-
-1833
1834
1835

£1,314,000
1,068.000
1,151,000

Either the Hon. Gentleman was oroug, or the return
made by the Government was wrung, thac was all he (Mr.
Hume) had to say on the subject.
Colonel ANSON said the return was imperfect; it did
not include the whole of the financial year, or the
200,000/, appropriation fund.

Mr. lIUKE !,.aid, the average of five years gave
1,2'.16,2001. If the rf turn of one year W 33 deficient, it I
wo::!.1 have beet) 00 doubt made up in the year fel-

Celorel ANSON still maintained that the return was

not pe:-ect.
The eefe wee then agreed ti'.
243e1261 for the establishments at home and abreact.
Mr. COBDEN said there were upwards of 80 ord-
nance establishments where stores were kept, and store-
keepers afid clerks maintained by the country. That
was one of the points to which the Committee had
drawn the attention of the Government, in the hopes of
a considerable reduction of the expense. The Hon.
Gentleman had, however, said that four only would
be reduced; though every ono knew the one at
Harwich might bo easily dispensed with, as well as
several others, in consequence of the facilities that
existed for supplying stores in those places by railway.
Of the 80 ordnance establishments there were 47
abroad. and the seine rule would apply to them as to
those in this country. Ia Canada, for instance, there
were seven, containing half a million worth of stores,
some of which were perishing from age, having been
there half a century and upwards. Tuese involved
storekeepers, clerks, rent, Sec.—all of which might be
got rid of. In the West Indies every little island was
strewed with cennone, shot, and shells, though he (Mr.
Cobden) had been told by a person perfectly well iii
formed on the subject that the whole system might be
changed, not only with benefit to the country, but with
advantage to the establishments themselves. I❑ former
times it was often a fortnight's voyage from the Leeward
to the Windward Islands; but since the introduction of
steam it was not more than 48 hours. The establish-
ments, therefore, that might have been seeded in former
times were now nee led no longer, and consequently
could be dispensed with. If the Hon. Gentlema❑ came
to the House next year, and proposed the reduction of
12 or even 20 of these establishments, he would still
leave something to be done in the matter.
Colonel ANSON did not wish it to be understood that
the reductions were all completed. There should, how-
ever, be time slowed to toisider the subject.
Mr. HUME asked why, as the troops were to be re
moved from Australis, the establishments in that colony
were kept up.
Colonel ANSON answered that provision was taken
for six months; after that, the expense would fall on the
colony.
Colonel CHATTERTON called attention to the sub-
ject of barrack damages. He considered that the soldier
should not be mulcted of his pay for small damages, fur
putting a nail where a peg would serve the purpose, for
example—which a whitewash brush and an expense of
sixpence would set to rights.
Colonel ANSON said the Hon. Member spoke profes-
sionally, and it was well known that professional men
were frequently very much biassed. The public required
some protection. If the little defects alluded to were to
be passed over unnoticed, they would annually amount
to a very serious sum. The system required to be closely
looked into, in order that abuses might be prevented,
and he would give it his best attention.
Mr. HUME inquired whether any arrangements had
been made, or were in contemplation, for each colony
providing its own barracks?
Colonel ANSON said, such arrangements had already
been made in Australia, and would be carried into effect
in the other colonies.
Mr. COBDEN read a passage from the evidence given
before the Committee last year by the Noble Lord the
Secretary for the Colonies, who said that they ought to
contribute more than they had hitherto done towards
barrick expenditure—that he had proposed that in Aus•
tralia the whole charge should be transferred to the co-
lony. That had been done with regard to Australia,
but he wished to know if the recommendation had been
carried out in the other colonies ?
Colonel ANSON was unable to answer the question,
but as the Noble Earl had stated that to be his intention,
no doubt it would be carried into effect.
The vote was then agreed to.
79,0031.. to complete the sum necessary to defray the
expense of the wages of artificers and labourers at home
and abroad. _ _ _

Mr. lIUME was afraid the principle laid down in
1828 had been departed from, that no manufacture that
could be supplied by contract should be provided by the
Government. _ .

Colonel ANSON said that the principle had not been
departed from, and that the only articles manufactured
by the Government were those for the supply of which
they could not depend on contract.
Mr. COBDEN said the parties examined before the
Committee gave no very clear idea of the real cost of the
articles manufactured by the Government. He found
there was a large establishment for the making of gun-
powder, with a stock of saltpetre and sulphur sufficient
fur thirty years' consumption. There was a large plant
and a number of dwelling-houses and cottages fur the
workmen. Now all the capital required for these de-
partments was put down as nothing. The cost of manu-
facture was then compared with the price charged by
private individuals, whose capital formed a portion of the
expense of manufacture. He was confident the very
articles manufactured by the Government could be ob-
tained cheaper by contract—particularly finished articles,
such as gunpowder and brass ordnance.
Colonel ANSON said that three-fourths of the gun-
powder used was provided by contract, but it was neces-
sary for t}►e Goiernment to keep the power of manu-
facturing gunpowder in their own hands. With respect
to brass guns, the evidence. taken before the Committee
showed thst the Government could not depend upon
being properly supplied by contract. The mixture of
metil was very peculiar, and if it should not be properly
amalgamated the manufacture would be a complete
failure.

Colonel CITATTERTON wished to know if any at-
tention had been paid to the building of sheds for sol.
diers' wives?
Mr. F. MAULE said that subject had attracted the
alt ntion of the louse for several years. Every one
acknowledged the impropriety of placing soldier.' wives
in the barrack-room with unmarried men, and the
House had sanctioned a vote of 4,0001. to enable such
soLlicrs' wives as were married, with the consent of the
commanding officer, to live out of the barracks.
Colonel CHATTERI.'ON icquired if the soldiers
were chuged with the expense?
Mr. F. 51AULE—No; they arc allowed so much per
week to find their own lodgings.
The vote was agreed te.
111,6311. to complete the sum necessary f.jr defraying
the expense of ordnance stores for the land and sea

service.
Mr. HUME said that although the whole force had
been supplied with new arms, he found a charge of
90,000/. for the supply and repair of small arms.
Colonel ANSON said the demand this year was less
than that of last year. It was true the army had been
supplied with the percussion musket, but it was neces-
sary to have a store beyond the number actually in the
hands of the troops.
Mr. HUME observed that he could not see the neces-
sity of keeping up a store of 200,000 muskets, when
probably some improvement would, in the course of a
short time, render them perfectly useless.
Colonel ANSON said that the service could not avoid
such charges, and if improvements took place they must
be adopted.
Mr. HUME did not see why we should still continue
to purchase saltpetre, when there was already a stock on
hand sufficient for twenty years.
Colonel ANSON said the proportion necessary to be
kept in stock was 4,000 tons, but the quantity proposed
to be purchased would make up only 3,500 tons.
Mr. HUME protested against the keeping up of such
eaormous quantity of stores, a great portion of which
were frequently rendered useless. So long as we re-
tained India we could command a supply of saltpetre at
six we ks' notice.
Colonel ANSON said the quantity at present on hand
was equal to five years' consumption. If the Govern-
ment should be called ou to purchase on an emergency
the price would be doubled.
Mr. HUME remarked that much more was lost by the
amount of waste and the loss of interest.
The vote was then agreed to.
290,064/. to defray the expense of works, buildings,
and repairs at home and abroad.
Mr. HUME wished to receive some explanation of the
charge of 35.0001. fur new barracks at Halifax.
Colonel ANSON said that the work, which was abso-
lutely necessary, had been deferred year after year, but
the barracks were at present in such a bad state, and
the health of the troops had suffered so much, that it
had been considered expedient at once to erect new
barracks.
The vote was agreed to.
78,6041. for scientific works.
Mr. WYLD inquired why, as a portion of the expense
of the sappers and miners employed in the survey had
been paid by the cities of London and Westminster, cre-
dit was not given for the payment.
Colonel ANSON believed the money had not yet been
paid.
Mr. J. E. DENISON said the total estimated cost for
contouring the whole of Ireland was 30,000/4 but it
turned; out that the real cost would not be less than
100,0001, and it had been stated by the then Chancellor
of the Exchequer, that if the expense had been known
in the first instance, it would not have been sanctioned.
The original estimate for the survey for the whole map
was 300,000/., but it seemed the expendituro already in-
curred amounted to 758,0001.; 120,0001. would be re-
quired to add the lines of elevation and level. Of this
sum 6,0001. only had been expended. He wished to
know what decision had been come to by the Govern-
ment with regard to this expense.
Colonel ANSON said the map had been completed on
what was called a townland survey, and was new being
revised on what was called a field survey. The system
of hill sketching formerly adopted did not show the
levels and altitudes so well as the contouring system now
resorted to. He had no doubt that the map, when com-
pleted, would be of great value in more than one respect
so Ireland.
Sir L. O'BRIEN was of opinion that such a map
would be of great use in the carrying on of all public
works, and particulr.rly with reference to poor-law
unions.
Mr. WYLD said ho observed an item of 5,0004 for
engraving the maps of large towns. He thought if the
large towns were to be surveyed on the large scale the
whole country ought to be surveyed in the same way,
for it was a hardship on the agricultural interest to be
called on to pay for a peculiar survey of large towns.
Colonel ANSON said that the survey of large towns
would proceed simultaneously with the rest of the survey,
on the scale of six inches to the mile. The item re-
ferred to by the Hon. Member was for engraving the
survey of large towns; applications having been made by
them for copies of the engraved map, in order to assist
them in carrying out sanitary improvements.
Mr. E. DENISON was still of opinion that great ex-
pense would be incurred by contouring, and that as re-
4arded large districts of Ireland it would not be of any
great value.
Sir 11. VERNEY thought the system of contouring
was a superior way of laying down the elevations, and