The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-17 00:00:00

to abolish the tax on light and air, the two great essen-
tials to health,—(Cheers.) De impugned, aft
. ,rg revenueether the
staternetit that these taxes were nece,ea.ro3, ot/
.
expended
~,
PtuPeses becat's there were now 4,500,0 to the es;ablistements of the. country
mmotrtee than wits ne"
, d those Mem-
esmry fur the public service. He d
but he
bets were inconsistent who voted for the establishments
and thin voted for the reduction
of
taxation;establishments that. he
Olr. Hume) voted against the
c'it;ht have a surplus to apply toeiaciedutition
that this
taxa-
tion, The Hon Member deniel, however,... of
evenue, in-
it
reduction would be all his to the
used in
asnmeh as it would con' era great boon on' all the ma-
nufaeturers of the country, the cost of thepaper
case with
Packing being in many instances as much asthe value of
the article itielf. This was particularly the,sodon
its
cheap hardware. Let the Government h
useless teilita establishments ; get rid
ry
oil the
suadron, which was worse than useless;
pay
..
in this
20 ae
he army
e i erranean squadron, and reduce t of the African
countr, and they would find themselves able not only
and other
to hike off these taxes, but the window duty,
fi,ttr.
impleta of a like obnoxious charaefer•—• le, motion,
The, Right nun• Baronet had ellivied t ) le
~had
brt 1, (Id 1-• * .
llstand? Th,, Holes.
hear.)
• .ow i the matter rea y
a lepte 1 the principle of free-grade, and
re
,tiou ( f
rids had thereby been eepospd to the co is
ea
ry
out
the
wo. . They ca et amen •
othnet principle, "ld• ll 1 ' the H iuse. tr.e ~
and he bad theretore.msaenvie,
on the subject
dr
'l.arctht
n
of
rliate
rsnubjehet. He might say. en
passant,
for them was t
brine eftetssi lb aftnthe great urtwi
hnomwere too lazy to look 1
e meet ers .
for theca themes 1
h ) and to have facts, and
e ves—(Laug ter
be doubted
Pounda, shillings, and pence, which could not
as ,_
or disputed. This return showed that free trade, i`
had not
:',s""u' ' d fettered trade ;
. came on, wasthey.the
~-. come to free trade, and he hope 1 yet to bring
He entreated
muter before the attention of the House.
of the
honourable Me b not to listen to the request
'tight Hon. Ba al
orbs h' dviee.—(Llughter)
Th ronet, eut to take is a
tablishments
ecoUlltry was borne down by its large es .
which
and
was suffering from excess of taxation,
ass
per anti
araounted to seven or eight millions more
alp.
A to motions
,_ o seas necessary. Let them then aeire__
not only
Le get rid of obnoxious taxes, and they would
reductions
do that
.
i , bet, at the same time, be effecting
h
n these burdensome establishments,. for it the Ministry
their es-
ad not the mone they would speedily reduce
esolu-
tablishments. He shoud vote in favour of the r
tioe d .
unneces
an in favour of the abolition of all those
might
easy establishments the maintenance of which
create a ditlicity -
carrying out the P
rinci-
Net
se , in the way of u
ar, hear.)
_ inch t resolution affir(
e d his vote in
_4,.31.r. B vvART said that he should mot.
and ala-
-4! tic
oafo the motion with as much cordiality
any re-
c'uY he had ever manifested in supporting
his ex-
solution that had been put from the chair duringbecause he
perence of the /louse. He should support it, because
who had
eheved, vvith the Right Hon. Gentleman
abi-
ioirtought it fsr ward, in a speech of such remarkable
Government
Y. that it was one of the primary dutiersi ofhe
to instruct
Right Hon.
orptie and enlighten the people.
taxes on know-
led,„ la, an did not propose that all the
did not ad-
.e mould be abolished at ono blow he
t()%18
th
. . ofthose imposts under
circunalt e immediate abolition
loss to the re-
ve,,, immediate
which would cause such
hat
Hon.
Baronet
ti;",..?, as had been predicted „by the Rig
of 1,300,000/.
wilautll;itacel.lor of the Exchequer—a losslus
in the Ex-
chequer
e cudthat there was a su
better
not do a
or , and that the Chancellor could
benefit of
a wiser thin k public the.
Ulm Bil. , g than to give the
taxes on know-
lede_Pltle!, by remitting some of
stamp
on news-
duty
Nero
, . for in as the
e, to
It was, of course,
m.
''cu Use advertisement duty.
"Pliderst
Gentleman eente
Meted te ood, that the Right Hon.
on know-
ee_ tie Ultiate abolition of all the
iuge;, but the
taxestion did not go
•orteer thanmeasure under consider!
remit:l-
- oe to pledge the House to the immediate
aggregate, did not
t various it •1, in the aggree •
amount to
general
erns, which,
teeasee mot ms,
than 350,000L—(Hear.)d
been made this
has; "eY of the attempte which had
produced upon
hi, '°°
mindto reduce taxation had Pr
if persons of
Proper, *
e , the impression
wishedthat to
obtain the
effeetine 40 this country
the same time that
they ,ua and respect of the people, at
,the wisest
th 7:! Pti. eed their own possessions in e
at
once to
,„',,e_R.tleat they could possibly do would n
taxation.—(Hear.)
i a More direct system of :
lin% to
introduction
of t ie.! mean to advocate the immediate
he
but certainly
'would rt'l I,leav system of. taxattion,
the system of ta/a-
tiott ,hie, e length of saying that
case of the in-
eetss.t% 13 had been propounded in thethe Member for
Zstesee,,)LtebY the Right Hon. Gentleman
and the
kilt • -*."'? aPpeared to him to be the soundest
he was most
deeidJetVietous that could be devised, and
in this
eoust 'y of opinion that the moneyed classesd
rate of
tliteetrY would, by submitting to an
intercourse which
wr44 ~._ taxation on property, adopt thda
to
facilitate the
ailbarriete3t calculated tu extend labour an
The soundest
Polio nee of the people.—(gear, le —(Elear, hear.) .
to
ex_
that .T. P P •
could adopt would be
teddyilk) "e
as
to cheapen as
touch as at as far as they could, and
and these
objects Petsible the means of subsistence,
the
people
fret,
toWailld •be best attained by relievingn
el 0 upon pro-
pettb einunecessary imposts, and by placing `-' sat pre-
i.., a larger
han et wa
."-4 eall.a
,Proportion of taxation t
Government, if
the, c ~," eaded upon to endure. The
motion of
the iti?,',`',llot bring themselves to accept the
would
et le„„r?"_,` 'non. Gentleman in its complete shape,.
towards
the ti." go well to make some approximation
For in-
-I,__ettninution of the taxes upon knowledge.
156,0001. ;
,tangy
the advertisement duty only yielded Exchequer,
Idly shtel'Zie was confessedly a balance in thet.etso
etine:"`i not a tax a insi nificant in amoun ,
SOoner
or 1--"'" la Principle° be at once remitted ?
iiew:ter all
such taxis would hare to repealed—
the all
PePer uut • duty, paper
-- • for
"tel sur 1 •Y, advertisement
li-emus
.
more
judicious the ehn eY It would be wiser and .
t them seriatim,
ati b .licellor of the Exchequer to remit
all at the same
asoo4Yrtraegrees than to dispose of them
have to do on
leime f as 11E'. vfould most assuredly
be increased
!thottutere (ley. His difficulty would thehnai
been not
snitD3eahnd; 'fold. The tax on knowledge
e the mind,"
ti
ille-rLatelY termed " the window-tax
°better. The
inhabit. sOoper it was done away with the
the
4Meries,ll,t3 els foreign countries, but more
especiallyterms of re-
Pret,ch ei!s, were continually speaking in
be found in
thit °, the small number of readers to
could
counts .
almost everyone
reed, 14,, Y, for in America
did, very
l'idelv -en might differ, and no doubt they
. n to be
ado -" t 4 the b of national education pts4 i,. . best system
but all must con-
cur it, te" such
a Country as England;
facilities of
atlein3t7 °Pinion that it was desirable that
of the
People rtetion should he placed within the
reachminds better
then 41 who would thus cultivate their own
asst eY would be enabled to do under anyscholastic_...ar,
. Wbetter on then
IN
4,,,, haisoever, The colonies were
In
lielieare",toselves with respect to these matters.
newspapers
sta), fe-"0 tiny Scotia, the circulation of
uch larger
Illiiiii •-- pt°Portion te th ulation, very m .
0 Pop • h was attri I
b table
ta ~ 'a London, a circumstance whic
It should
hit 'lO fact that there was no stamp duty.
()rile •
longer
no
Ithet they 10 mind that newspapers were
They
*et, used to be in the time of Swift.
44,
Lb thene luxuries—they were nownecessaries ;
f od nesting
NI lit they Were „ important means 0 Judging
V:from people was not be questioned.
- what h
,h,feh . e had seen of the unstamped publications as
'etemeere at present in the course of issue—suchekly
Plop "s' Journal Eliza Cook's Journal,
and the we
was not
its "cetions which' boreof Lloyd—he ,
ham the name
the total
abolie to anticipate any evil results from .
n • ustice
to to I°ri of the stamp-duty. He was bound
11
i moral
tharefttnit that these publications were of a highy=
the
ateiht,e_te!, end that they reflected credit as well
taste of
thoter or theme who wrote for them as on the
who
vrere fwha° Patronise 1 them,—(Hear, hear.)
ThoseM'Culloch
thettlean: t relying on the authority of Mr.
decidedly
.
go ' 'etue- that gentleman was
ter stile to , tuber that
Ewart) was
led.,toe advertisement duty. He (Mr.
more
evils t,'3- llqing it altogether, for he was sure that no
those
/;,.,hich 4h11,,,,48 WOUld follow from its abolition than
that"hit ''' rosUlted from the repeal of the duty upon,_
noes, hen he first had the honour of a seat in
Pet to °s
Betevery almanac that was published was sub
des-
PicaleettY of no less than Is. 4d.; and
amore
da s was
not %la :•omposition than the almanac of thos.e_
11 days
and s' where to be found. It was full of si
y robable
I,,iir atrologieal calculations as to the e)
13- 'cal de • •
Ministers of t e
h day.
. artrid '
. statues of the
d to ever-
It almanacs had been "clarane
k e and
kerne. 144." in the "Rape of the
Loccentury.
It ~-," °:ere equ Ilynotorious in our own
belonged
Of h--. 14 Lord a - that the honour
to a Wishing the !klthorp
amounted
almanacs, which
in
theahout 27,0001. a duty, on almanacs,
immense improvementcept.
lee ephalacter of th )ear.workswas immediately p
er
he
Ras -Ftl,q, it had beenesQ ressive that he believed
not
It - "1"Y warranted ilnetphrogassertion that there was
such
Pater pry is the world inewhich such valuable and
He
We% e.'tillg almanacs were published as in. .England.
other
taeseregratieeleil that the effect of allabolishang
That
the "P°ll knowl d be equally beneficial.
people .e ge would
more ier and
order' of this country would be haPP . .
et ereYsethat the-
e would be even better citizens than
to the
he; e'leut, better subjects and stauncher friends
litlit" Pro t ifthey' fairly en-
fully and
of
e, ened
er y
in respect
etieh „ andsnstructed, were questions .
nion in the
Selma ere soul trotted, be no diversity of opt
the news-
Paper
,;11 Unprejudiced men. With regard to
exceed-
high, ntY. he considered that it was not only i-
ntetti`,l,llJudicious in principle, but likewisehighly
which had
s' u'e in • . apers
cercei operation, for local newspapers
t were sub-
ieet te3; u!ly circulation by means of the poet
journals whose
cire,ti' It Just as much as metropolitan
through
Nit :Mon waa to a very great extent carried on
had
only
to asget'eY•--(Hear, hear.) In conclusion,
he
was
itltitt y that,et 1 regarding the motion as one whichsts
of the
0%4,4 Q4Y connected with the best interests
cter of its
PeopieY' atid eminently congenial to the
ehar"ordial sup-
per,. , he should not hesitate to give it his c
i',,.-Ulear, hear.)
d to sever
fr()Zth4GLIONBY was sorry to be obliged
ed, and
whoa, "at Party with whom he generally
vel
Ili, eXertions to diminish taxation usually
commanded
to
cotorpnPatlay and co-operation; but, being unable
under
the pre end What good results would be obtained,
the
teoteot circumstances of the country, from
eluc-
tshtl,,a 14 his Right Hon. Friend, he should be r
as
ohlVeeehliged to give his vote against it. He
w
reseit`" to ask himself what practical advantage would._
Ile to the to
from a division on this question?
ledge ould like to see the abolition of all taxes on know-
c° hut he vvas bound to ask himself whether it was
e
fl()lottireytlbi° under the present circumstances of th,.
?'11%,v f:, and if not, whether any good result would
toe liirtn.,geing to a division on such a question. If
ahouka" ,goo. Gentleman the Member for Manchester
*ted h'e 'll 4 minority, the effect on the public mind
ao izeuile very damaging as far as the question he bad
trikry, h at heart ryas concerned; but if, on the con-
deUbt tbeatahh°4ld carry his motion, there could be no
4. voicee would materially damage the Government.
fr°ol th
IVOUId strati 8 Treasury Bench.-.No, no; he
strengthen
it.
ir)4r. AGL ovv.
it c ' -litell, that was a matter of opinion.
, ould be proved th
bean
weakened, at the Government, so far from
talkli
would be benefited, he shouldhave
the pleasure it,
f
recording his vote in favour . o
in" nsotion--(Lati h
41rci telt' to b , g ter)—but he could not bring
edeve that it would have any such opera-

THE SUN,

.....
tion. When the proper occasion for abolishing these were they in such a state? The reason was that the I
taxes had arrived, and when the House was in a position people were invested with political power be ore they f,
to do so, he would hate much pleasure in supporting has received political instruction. It was idle to tell him
l
any motion that might be brought forward with a view that the people of England were possessors of power.
to their cbolition, but he thought it was a dangerous It was no suth thing, for a very small portion c f them
precedent for that House to pledge itself in one session possessed power. There were Hon. Gentlemen opposite
to the expression of an abstract opinion with regard to who had represented large constituencies (he did not see
whet might be done in the next. He could cosily imagine any at his side of the Hous who
w en
he berth
thereat privil
were negeot
),
the possibility of its being demonstrated hereaf er to the and he appealed t ) them to e state
satisfaction of a majority of that House that there were among then many who held Communist doctrines.—
other taxes the remission of which would be more bite- (flear, hear.) He appealed to the Noble Lord who stood
ficial to the public et large than the repeal of the taxes bet sseen the country and this ereat :evolution, for it was
in question. Of course, the converse of the proposition idle to attempt concealment if the feet—that the people
might also be capable of demonstration, sad he had no were becoming excited, and that inevitably they
hesitation in asserting that, if he had been put to his would have political power—to be wise in time, and
election to say whether he would repo tithe brick duty grant concessions where concessions were required.—
or the taxes on knowledge, he should assuredly have (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had always been a
given his vote in favour of the latter. On the other zealous supporter of a levee increase of the franchihe
se,
hand, if it had been put to him to say whether he would and he had been so with
his oyes open, because
vote for the abolition of the window tax or for that of cherished the hope that the Government would not op-
the taxes referred to in the motion of the Right. Hon. pose the education of the people. If they were to tell
Gentleman, he would not have hesitated to give his vote him that an uneducated, exe ted, and ignorant multitude
in favour of the remission of the window tax, because he were to have the power of regulating this great empire,
believed that tax was a most obnoxious one, and ke was he would say that they must have it; but he addressed
certain that its repeal would be productive of greater re- himself to those who had in their hands the mighty in-
lit f to the public than the repeal of any other impost terests of this expanded empire, and he asked
ofteto
whetsoever. raise theinse'vt,s ab,)ve the petty conceptions a mere
Colonel THOMPSON observed that the mover and Ministry clinging to power, to expand and exalt their
seconder of the moti,in expressed an opinion which was minds, and to say to those who directed public opinion
likely to command very general sympathy in that in this country—" We are about to raise the people to
House when they stated that all taxes on knowledge exercise and appreciate the great business of empire;
ought to be repealed as soon as ever the Chancellor of the tide of time will raise them up to that position; we
Exchequer found it possible to do so. The sentiment cannot prevent the consummation, but we are about to
was no doubt a very proper one, but when he thought instruct the millions of
our countryman
to min ist to understan
to
d
of the course which certain Hon. Members who were their own interest, andunderstanding it, er
supporting the present resolution had adopted with re- the interests of mankind."— (Cheers.) Let thi
and let no narrow
help thinking of the homely and childish proverb which interfere eith the great proposition of the Right Hon.
said that a man could not cat his cake and have it too. Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson).—(Cheers.) ,
—(Hear, hear.) The relief which they had given to rich Lord JOHN RUSSELL—Mr. Speaker, those Mem-
men the night previous would render it no easy matter hers who were not in the House at the time when my
to procure any relief for the poor to-night. He con. Rieht Hon. Friend the Chanceor ofotion the E
thexcheqeechuer
fessed that he felt a little sore on the transaction of last spoke can hardly have any correcllt n of sp
night, and must be excused if, in now voting for the mo which he has made from the representations which have
tion of the Right Hon. Member for Manchester, he gave been made of it by the Hono
on. urab
andle Gearneentlemdan
Gent Gentleman
on as doing more than expressing a hope that the Chan- asks us to raise ourselves above petty fiscal considera-
cellor of the Exchequer would repeal the taxes on dons, and to look at the subject with the importance
knowledge as soon as he found it practicable to do which it demands. But I own I think that the view
so.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Perhaps he had been which my Right Hon. Friend took of this case was a
educated in a contracted school, but he could not remove most important one, and the one upon which the decision
from his mind the impression that little was to be of the House ought to depend. My Right Hon. Friend
gained by attacking a Chancellor of the Exchequer on shaded to the propositions which had been made in this
any point. He was willing to admit that the present House after the financial statement of the year had been
Chaneellorof the Exchequer deserved well of the country. delivered, mad having alluded to the taxes which he
and had taken more steps in the right direction with re- proposed to abolish or reduce, he stated that, after the
spect to taxation than any one else who had preceded him payment of 250,0001., he did not think there would be a
in his office of late years. It was to be hoped that, not- margin of more than 400,0001. on the whole of the esti-
withstanding the untoward occurrence of the preceding mates for the financial year. Having done this, my
evening, he would persevere in the right course, and ulti- Right Honourable Friend alluded to the propositions
mately attain that influence and that position in the Which had been made to this House for the reduction of
country to which he was clearly entitled. It was greatly taxes. He alluded to the motion very lately made, and
to be regretted that the question of the reduction of very nearly carried for the redaction of the window-
taxation should be hampered, as it had unfortunately tax, amounting to 1,800,0001. lie alluded to the pro-
been so frequently of late, by being connected with the position now made to reduce 1,300,0001. He alluded
restoration of the slave trade. For his part, he was unable to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman the Member
to discern any legitimate connexion between them. The for Montrose, which stands on the votes of this evening,
African squadron was no nuisance to him. He met it for the reduction of duties upon agricultural produce and
nowhere. It did not disturb his daily thoughts nor his manufactures to the amount of 1,500,0001., amounting
nocturnal visions. He cheerfully paid his share in the altogether to no less a sum than 4,600,0001.—(Hear,
expenses it occasioned, and would have no objection to hear.) And my Right Hon. Friend said that if the
pay still more if the laudable object for which it had House, without considering the scope and general ten-
been established could be realised.--(Hear, hear.) He dency of these propositions, would take them piecemeal.
could wish that Hon. Members at his own side of the at a period when there was only a surplus of 400,0001.
House had a little more worldly prudence. There on the financial year, we would fled ourselves, after
could be no doubt that more than three additional having got out of a financial difficulty, again plunged
Members would have voted for the abolition of the into embarrassments, and that we would give up a posit
window•tax the other evening had not the question tion of safety, security, and honour, for one that was
been bound up so illegitimately and irrationally with the unsafe, insecure, and injurious to the credit of this great
question of the African squadron. It was, indeed, country.—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I may confidently ask
greatly to be deplored that some of his Hon. Friends the House whether this was a petty view to take of the
had not a little more worldly wisdom. There was no bait interests of the country ?—(Hear hear.) I think not.
in the shape of a reduction of 101. or 201. (to be effected And when the Hon. and LearneSGentleman tells of re-
at the expense of the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that volutions, and alludes to the condition of neighbouring
could be thrown over to them from the other side of the countries, I know no cause which has been more fertile
House, that they would not only nibble at, but swallow in revolutions than the mismanagement of finances; a
with the greatest possible avidity.—(Laughter.) policy which has reduced the revenue of those states far
Mr. ROEBUCK did not think that the Hon. and below their expenditure, and brought in its wake na-
Gallant Member who had just resumed his seat had put tional bankruptcy and confusion.—(Cheers.) Why, if
tae transaction of the previous evening in quite a fair this be the case with regard to other countries, I
light. The object of those who had voted in the majo- think the warning of my Right Honourable Friend was
rity was the laudable and reasonable one of attempting not thrown away, and that he took no trifling fiscal
to raise a revenue in the least mischievous form in which view of the case, but a comprehensive and intelligent
a most mischievous revenue could be raised. They had one, when he asked the House to consider these matters
endeavoured to make the pressure of a tax, to the prin- as a whole; and, whether dealing with the stamp duty,
ciple of which they strongly objected, as eqaable and the window duty, and the taxes upon paper and adver-
tolerable as possible, by spreading it over as large a sur- tisements, to consider, not the detects of the tax, but
face as possible, and making many contribute in a small how its abolition might affect the general interests of the
sum, rather than a few in a very large amount. He country, and to lose sight of the defect in the danger to
had heard the song sung by the Chancellor of the Ex- which the credit and best interests of the country might
chequer, and a very dismal and melancholy song it was. bo exposed.—(Hear, hear.) I agree with my Right
—(Laughter.) It was the old story about a falling en- Honourable Friend in the view that he has taken.
chequer. He had seen many successive Chancellors on But the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite says that
the Treasury bench, but he had never known one of I have a contracted mind.—(Laughter.) Well, so it is,
them of whom it might not with perfect truth be said and so I suppose it must be.—(Renewed laughter.) I
that, when something that was not quite customary was regret that I. do not rise to the height of the Hon. and
proposed to him with respect to taxation, his gorge rose Learned Gentleman's magnificent conceptions.—(Laugh-
as though you hid politely asked him to devote to deter.) I trust, however, lam not an enemy to the pro-
struction the whole fabric of society. To propose any gress of knowledge, and that lam not opposed to the
alteration, however trivial, in the mode of taxation, was, remission of those duties when it can be effected. At
in the estimation of a Chancellor of the Exchequer, tan- the same time, lam bound to see that the credit of the
tamount to proposing an alteration in the position of the country is not shaken, and I think it behoves the Go-
stars —(Laughter.) As for the instruction of the vernment to place its financial position clearly before
human mind, that was a mere secondary consideration, the House. My Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of
He at once met you by stating that there would be a the Exchequer said, and said truly, that different views
loss of 50,0001. to the Exchequer, and there was an end had been taken of this subject by different Members.
of the matter. Talk to him about the powers of produc. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose has ex.
tion being augmented, or about the certainty of intro-. pressed his opinion that great reductions might be
during something new which should make the country made in the naval and military estimates, but a large
what it never had been before in point of happinness and majority of the House has voted these estimates,
prosperity, he would reply, "My good sir, it is out of the and es I think that it would be extremely dan-
question. It would occasion a loss to the Exchequer of Este roux,
regard being
thi, ha
count
d to the preset st
ate
50,0001. If you were to represent to bim of Europe, to leave s ry in a defence-
e
that that which constituted the Exchequer was the less position, I agreed with the view which the
power of labour, which poured its earnings into it, be majority of the House took in voting those estimates.
would still be as inexorable as ever. Strong in the con- Then, again, lion. Gentlemen opposite say, there is no
viction that he had Cocker at his back, he would enter great mischief if there be some deficiency in income, be-
into a calculation to show you that two and two made cause we may regain what we have lost by the imposi-
four, which, by the way, was not sound political arithmetic tion of those taxes which formerly contributed consider-
for a Chancellor of the Exchequer.— (Hear, hear.) Such able portion of revenue; but, Sir, I think the majority
of the House would reject that policy as a return to a
a question as that at present under consideration was not
a matter for the decision of a Chancellor of the Exche- vicious system which has been lately abandoned.—(Hear
quer. It was a matter which ought to be decided by the hear.) Inc.ee in these reductions, and it would be impos-
' result, therefore, would be, that no parties
Noble Lord at the head of the Government. What higher would agr
duty could possibly engage the attention of the Govern- ,sible to reconcile Hon. Gentlemen to any description of
ment than the education of the people? The people, taxation that would make the revenue equal to the ex-
educated and enlightened, were omnipotent for every penditure, or reduce the expenditure in harmony with
great achievement; ignorant and benighted, they (tarried the revenue.—(Hear, hear.) The consequence would be,
about them the elements of mischief. Of what avail .that the House would find itself in a position of finan-
were fiscal considerations, when there was under our ciel difficulty discreditable to the country, and more
feet a volcano, which might break forth at any moment, especially so as there is, in reality, no difficulty before
and devote the country to destruction? How was it. With regard to the remission of the taxes on
it possible to conduct the people in a beneficent course knowledge, lam not disposed to say much. I admit with
otherwise than by instructing them? And how were they the Hon. Member for Edinburgh who seconded this me-
to be instructed unless by those powers of mechanism tion, that when deputations come to me to express their
which the arc of printing had placed in the hands of
none,opinimy lips are, as he said, congealed. Laughter
their governors ? lie confessed he was sickened and dis- —ad at Ido not express the agreement I may enter-
gusted with the cant of " humanity" which prevailed in taiu to the objections taken to certain imposts; for it
the present age. When he appealed to those on whose really is the case, that there is hardly a deputation,
lips this cant was found most fit quently, they evinced whether it be to urge the remission of duties on ten,
their readiness to let him -have their charity. Now soap, advertisements, and windows, which has not
charity, in his acceptation of the word, meant insult.— demonstrated that that particular tax is in-
(Hear, hear.) Give the people the means of instruction, jurious to the country. I cannot well dispute
and they would not ask for charity. Let them acquire these statements; but on the other hand, if I were to say
knowledge, and they would not need assistance to enable they were right in wishing to see those duties abolished,
them to obtain the means of subsistence.—(Hear, hear.) or to make any pledge upon the subject, they would im-
These were truths evoked by the experience of mankind mediately charge me with a breach of faith in not having
in these latter ages. We did not know it three ceutu- come down to this House and joined my Right Hon.
ries ago, but we know it now. We knew what instruc- Friend.—(Bear, hear.) Ido not think the Governments
tion was—we knew how to communicate it to the people, with which I have been connected have shown indiffer-
and we knew that a Liberal Administration, which had ence to the evils which have been inflicted by those
not put its entire faith in the mere holding on of place, taxes. I find that, in the year 1833, Lord Althorp re-
but which had its purpose and object in raising, and not duced the duty on advertisements from 3s. 6d. to ls. 6d.,
depressing, the people, upon whose enthusiasm it thus losing a sum which he thought would amount to
traded, would have been the first to strike down those 70,0001. per annum. Lord Monteagle also, when Chan-
fiscal exactions upon the instruction of the people. The cellor of the Exchequer, reduced the charge for news-
administration of the Noble Lord had not been of that paper stamps amounting to 309,0001. per annum, and
kind. lie had hung on by place, and he had not sought also reduced the duty upon the finer descriptions of paper,
to raise the social position of the people by wholesome amounting to 394,000/.—(Hear, hear.) You have thus
instruction. He had, no doubt, wished to get over the about 775,000/. which has been remitted by the Govern-
difficulties of his position, but he had not; he had ments with which I have been connected from the very
not sought to raise the condition of the people whom articles upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman wishes
he had the misfortune to govern. It was upon this for further reductions. This shows that we have not
ground that he quarrelled with the Noble Lord.— been indifferent to the evils caused by these taxes, and
(Rear, hear.) He did not care for the opinion of that as far as these taxesarec oncerned, supposing that
none more
them objectionable,
Honourable Gentlemen at his (Mr. Roebuck's) side among all the taxes there were
of the House.—(Laughter.) He assured them that we should be ready to reduce or abolish if th etr:own
they were centuries behind the times, and that merits were only concerned. At the same time,
the idea of resuscitating Protection was an idle and de- the benefit to be derived from these reductions h I think
been
lusive hope. It' they attempted it they would be put greatly exaggerated.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed
down and crushed. The Noble Lord need not, however, the phrase " taxes upon knowledge"
is
s an
exaggeration. I
apprehend any attempts from that aide of the House. —(Hear, hear.) We heard the Hon. Gentleman say,
There was nothing approaching to opposition to be and say truly, that a great part of the evil complained
feared, but there was a tide setting in out of doors, of bytho deputation bore upon the coarser kinds of paper
which, if the Noble Lord could but understand and profit used in packing parcels, such as ironmongery; but I
by, would make him omnipotent with the people.— it cannot be contended that the duty upon pa
dr used
plesure
(Hear, hear.) But he had a narrow and contracted for such purposes amounted to a tax upo kn
mind.—(Hear, hear.) There was, however, a boldness (Laughter.) Then, with regard to newspapers, owl. e.
itg is. --,
I
about the Noble Lord which he admired, and a courage admit, desirable that the people should havtehtiokittcal in-
whichh he liked. The Noble Lord was placed in a posi- formation ; at the same time I
tion which no other man had ever been fortunate of the matter contained in the newspapers eanehardealyeeb
enoughfi to occupy, and it he would but take the tide at its dignified by the name of knowledge. Again, my Righte
ethefr
articleso m un -
ow, he might make much of it; but if he did not, the Hon. Friend showed the mischief °resulting from un-
tide would swallow him, and he would be as nothing in stamped publications, and read various articles
lik
the vast multitude of theewarers which surrounded him. stamped papers which were extremely
—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Roebuck) believed that no I hare found in stamped papers. There was, for in-
bntter proposition could have been brought forward than stance, the character of Lord Grey, which I should have
that which the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced, considered written by Jacob Omnium and other writers
—(Hear, hear.) And why did he say so? Because he in the daily press. With regard to the other news-
knew that the thousands and millions of the people papers for which sd. is charged, ld. of which only is for
of this country who were now rising up and gasp- stamp duty. the only reason that they are charged s
ing for education would have their attention highly is that they are put to great expense in getting
in-
directed to other subjects if they did not get it. formation. One gentleman connected with a morning
republic, as they had at the otherw e
side shouldof have
the a
water,red
correspondencenewspaper told mf
for
thatth a t
journalth the ee
amountedof express itnog6tohoel. French
If the people were not educated
where the people were not properly educated, and where It is, therefore, the desire of the public to get early in-
they they only knew how to combine forhrinehischievous
That spirit of Communism
to
b e found which
in England, wa s
s o pa rnedv ai -t
par-
taxesl
must o f
that t
declinel i e
s rnewspapers
to
entering
eriabolished
gh
intoi g h ,
poses.lent in FranceTh and not
pledge tghee
that
tntyh stamp.
ese a,.
would to a certainty put clown the existing state of above every other tax. The Hon. Gentleman the
things if the people were not taught how to direct their Member for Montrose has advocated the reduction of
powers. There were 30,000,000 of persons at the other the duties on windows grid soap, and has stated that
side of the water quite as good as ourselves;
but was sanitary measures are useless unless those imposts be
there ever known such a rope of sandastltat which abolished. I admit that those duties interfere very
France now presented, because the people were much with the health, enjoyment, and means of clean-
perly instructed? Ho contended that the affairs noto pro-
of this linos of the people at large. These are very strong
country were conducted by a very small portion
people. The multitudes, however, were rising up, and objections,
tuxes and equally strong as those urged against
the on knowledge. The Hon. and Learned
it was impossible any longer to prevent them from having Gentleman the Member for Sheffield says,
acted minds, we have con-
power. He entreated the Government, therefore, to tr that we shall fall into danger, and has
diffuse freely and without fiscal restraint the benefit of reminded
education to those vast multitudes who were entitled to sho ev us the perils that we are likely to encounter. Sir,
possess, and who inevitably would sooner or later possess, th .e present condition of France is not owing to the high
those powers which they had not previously enjoyed. ',nee, of
nle. ewspapers, or to the want of instruction among
He charged them, therefore, in God's name to give in- the I understand that in Paris you can get for
struction to the vast multitudes of the people who had a haileef!)epnn
not hitherto had power, but who were now destined to, clever writing,a newspaper full of ingenious epigrams,
intelligence of the day.
enjoy it. Lot not the narrow view of the Chancellew Schoolmasters are and
all
the
spread
also over France, but the
of the Exchequer be allowed to interfere in a matter newspapers endeavour to make government impossible;
of so great moment. He appealed to the Noble Lordat and there are schoolmasters who endeavour to make re-
the head of the Government to look to the condition of li 'gton d' o tous.—(Hear, hear.) Then Sir, I say, if you
France, Germany, and Italy,.--(Hear, hear.) Aid why ' have chest) newspapers which endeavour ty Teske go,
_

vernment impossible, and if you have schoolmasters
whose object is to make religion odious, 1 can more
c a-My explain the state of Franco than wish for
an imitation of it.—(Hear, hear.) I do not believe,
with the Hoe. and Learned Gentleman, that the people
of this country are only lately admitted to political
power. They are a people long accustomed to political
discussion, and long accustomed to take part in the poli-
tical events of their country. The hearts of the men of
England have ever throbbed with the victories of &g-
-land, they have been proud of the loyalty of the throne
of England, and they are men who are proud of the re-
ligion of their country.—(Hear.) Tony entertain those
feelings. They have watche I with anxiety every turn
in the events of their country, and while they have fol-
lowed some Ministers and chiefs with admiration and
enthusiasm, they have been as ready to condemn others
for incompetency and unfitness.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman says we care for nothing
hut holding on fir puce. But a few days ago I was re-
proached for the part I took in opposing a motion for
the withdrawal of the Aftican squadron, and I am re-
proached fur declaring myself determined not to retain
effiee unless my opinions were assented to by a majority
of the House on that occasion. S:r, I am ready to
submit to either imputation, as I am not conscious of
being guilty in either respect.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") So long as we can maintain the principles
upon which we think the greatness of England has
been founded—so long as we can meititein this country
in the possession of those great benefits which she has
the happiness to enjoy—so long as we can keep her in
the pursuit of that path which has been marked out by
Providence for her entree—so long will it be a matter of
pride to us to be the foremost advisers of our Sovereign.
—(Hear, hear.) If it phase the Rouse to take a course
which we think dangerous or discreditable to the coun-
try, then our names must be severed from the possession
of power; and we can only lament that the country has
taken a course which we will think unfortunate.—(Loud
cheers from the Ministerial benches.) Sir, I must ask
the House to reject the motion; I do so with all respect
to the Right Hon. Gentleman; I do so, agreeing in many
of the statements which he has made with respect to the
objections to be urged against those taxes; but I say
this is not the occasion, nor the time, when the House of
Commons can lightly condemn taxes necessary for the
support of your public obligations, and for the support of
those establishments which you deem essential for the
national defence. If that be the case, then I ask the House
to concur with me in the rejection of this motion, and
to show the country that you are determined to main-
tain the credit, and be worthy of the people whom you
lead.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI—Sir, before we divide, I wish to
take the opportunity of expressing in a very few words
the reasons why I shall vote in support of the motion.
I understand that the question before the House is,
whether we shall agree to the first resolution of the
Right Honourable the Member for Manchester. I be-
lieve that resolution recommends that such financial ar-
rangements ought to be made as will enable us to repeal
the excise duty on paper. That is the question upon
which the division is to be taken.—(Hear, hear.) In
dealing with this question, I shall not indulge in those
general and emphatic views which characterised the
speech of the Honourable and Learned Member for
Sheffield, and also that of the Noble Lord the First Mi-
nister. They have both brought us to the Red Republic,
and there we will leave them—(Loud Laughter)—nor,
Sir, is it at all necessary for me, in the present instance
(although I think it a subject well worth the considera•
don and deep attention of the House) to enter into the
cases in which within a very few years vast reduc-
tions amounting to nearly 9,000,000/.—of taxation—
pressing principally on.trade and commerce. After
having repealed those laws, the repeal of which we
were told would enable the enterprise and industry of
England to beat the world, we still find that, year
after year, I may say day after day, and hour after hour,
the burden of taxation has become more grievous and op-
pressive.—(Hear, hear.) Nor shall I remind the House,
and especially my Friends, that if we adopt any mea-
sures for the reduction of taxation, which, under such
circumstances the community and our constauent a who
were lately complaining of those burdens, might be in-
duced to agree to, and which, whatever might be the
consequences, would afford them relief, we could only
make up the deficiency in the revenue by having re-
course to import duties. I say, I shall not dwell upon
that point, although it might be a topic not distasteful
to us, for really all these matters have been placed before
us in a more fervid manner by the Noble Lord, and by
the Right lion, the Member for Manchester, than they
could be from the somewhat dry details before us. We
are now called upon by our vote virtually to repeal an
excise duty to the amount of 750,0001. I cannot view
this question totally unconnected with this year's finan-
cial exposition of the Government, to which the Noble
Lord has himself referred. I was not, from acciden-
tal circumstances, present when that statement wes
made, but it is an immortal subject. It is still
alive. Last night, even, its details were under
consideration, and the question proposed to-night—
the step which we may prudently take—is entirely con-
nected with that financial statement of the Government.
Now, I hold, as a general rule, that there are two consi-
derations which ought to influence a financial minister
in dealing with a heavy tax and a surplus. I think
the first duty that should occur to him should be to re-
lieve any suffering interest in the country.—(Hear.)
And I think that if the country be in that happy state
that there is no interest of importance in great distress
and suffering, his next duty should be to relieve all in-
terests by devoting the surplus to the reduction of the
public debts, that is, by reducing the general taxation of
the country.—(Hear.) These are the two considerations
which should guide a minister of finance in dealing
with the surplus revenue. These are the two c oaside-
rations which should influence public men when it was
officially announce I that we had a surplus, and when, in
connexion with that announcement, it was declared by
the Financial Minister himself that there was an interest
in the country—and the most important interest—not
only suffering, but greatly suffering, and that
its Suffering was not only recognised by those who more
immediately represented it, but by the Government
itself, and by the Representatives of this House ge•
nerally. But was any proposition brought forward
to devote that surplus to the relief of that suffering in-
tore a? What was the conduct of the Government?
They opposed that proposition, notwithstanding their
acknowledgment that that important interest was greatly
suffering. Under all the circumstances of the case, they
thought they felt justified in resisting the application of
the surplus revenue of the country to the relief of that
interest. Sir, I felt, in the object I then attempted to
effect, that I had acted in a manner which brought t f me
and those who supported me no mortification.—(Cheers
from the Protectionist benches.) And what was the
conduct of Government after that? Were they influ-
enced by that which I conceived to be the second consi-
deration which should influence a minister dealing with
a surplus? Did the Government devote that surplus to
the reduction of the public debt, and consequently to the
reduction of the burdens that pressed on all classes?
They did not. They came forward and made a propo-
sition which I think I am justified in saying was most
unsatisfactory to the people of this cuuntry.—(Hear,
hear.) They proposed a repeal of the excise duty on
bricks—a proposition against which, if I had been here
at the time, I should have entered my protest, and
which I think I can say with truth was accepted by
those for whose benefit it was intended with utter deri-
sion.—(Hear.) By that means the Government reduced
their announced surplus of 1,510,000/. to 500,000/. The
second measure which they announced was also a mea-
sure of relief to the same interest. Upon that measure
I need not dilate, because its principal character and
peculiar merits are most familiar to all present, and the
House still resounds with the cheers which last night
hailed the defeat of Ministers on that measure. At this
moment the Government are in possession of an unap-
propriated surplus of 1,000,000/. What does the first
resolution of the Right Hon. Member for Manchester
ask them to do with that surplus? Only to appropriate
a portion of that surplus to the repeal of the Excise
duty on paper. Before I give any opinion upon that
particular proposition, there is one observation which I
would make, with great respect, to my Hon. Friends
and also the proposition made
around me. It is very true that a proposition to repeal
the excise duty on Paper,
the other night to repeal the window•duty, are not pro-
positions to repeal taxes with which those whom we
represent on this side of the House are immediately
concerned ; but I would impress upon my Hon.
Friends that there is nothing more dangerous—there is no-
thing more to be deprecated—than to make in this House
the offer to relieve the people from taxation always a
question between town and country,—(Hear.) I have
often witnessed the art that has been enapfoyed to convey
a most unjust impression to the public that the only
idea we, on this side of the House, have with regard t
relief from taxation was to relieve the class with which
we stand immediately connected from that burden, not
taking any thought for those who are not connected with
us. The question of relief from taxation should be
always a general and national question.—(Bear, hear.)
And if at any time, at this side of the House, so far as
lam individually concerned any proposal for the relief
of taxation has been brought forward ostensibly for the
purpose of relieving one class only, it was because that
class was universally confessed to be, not only the most
suffering class, but the only suffering class.—(Hear,
hear.) The Chancellor of the Exchequer having, in the
management of this surplus, declined to be influenced
by those considerations which ought to direct his con-
duct, and as he has at his command a surplus exceeding
that required by the proposition before us, I am to
consider whether, on the whole, it is most for the
advantage of the country that the excise duty on paper
should be repealed, or that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer should have in his possession a sum for the
discreet exorcise of which I have no security what-
ever; fur it should be remembered that, notwithstanding
the events of last night, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer did not come forward at half past four o'clock
to-day and frankly tell us what he intimdel to do with
this surplus. lie did not tell us whether he meant to
proceed with his measure respecting the stamp duties or
not. Ile has loft us in complete obscurity on that sub-
jeet.—(Lloar, hear.) What, then, is the peep,
sition of the Right Honourable the Member for lalen-
cheater? Can there be in this House upon the abstract
merits of that question two opinions? In it possible that
any person on the abstract merits of that question can
have an opinion different from that of the Right lion.
Gentleman? You may have two opinions as to the effect
of an advertisement duty. There may be also two
opinions as to the effect of the stamp duties on news-
papers; and, as I have not arrived at those resolutions,
1 decline now to express my opinion with repect to those
duties, but that there are no evils ariain:.a; from duties
abstractedly greater than the excise duty on paper,
whether considered materially or morally, is a position
which I think no one will contest.—(Hear.) I shall
not enlarge on those interests in detail on which the
Right Hon. Gentleman dwelt, and with which many of
us are familiar, but shall merely remind the House that
taxes upon knowledge are sneered at us fantastic by the
First Minister, at a time when Chambers had to give up
o publigotion belying § circulotio“ of 80,000 e, week-9,

Birch, Sir T.

they might be easily complied with if the Right Hon
Gentleman chose.
Mr. ANSTEY said that his Hon. Friend the Member
for Carlow had somewhat mistaken the nature of the
case which he had submitted to the House, in so far at
least that he did not seem to be aware that the blame
rested rather with the East India Company than with
the Board of Control. Ho hoped the assurance which
the Right Hon. Baronet had given of the favourable in•
tentions of Government towards the Irish bar would be
remembered when they exercised more influence in
those appointments than they practically did a. present.
After a few words from Mr. LAWLESS, the House
divide: . when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it ...
Majority

publication of the most instructive and rational nature,
and the most highly conducive to good government that
ever appeared, because ho was beat out of the market by
a publication in Holy well-street, which exceeded his in
circulation, and which was dedicated to the most inde-
cent and blasphemous purposes.—(Hear, hear.) Since
the Chancellor of the Exchequer has declined relieving
that interest whose sufferings eetitle them to relief, and
as he has not adopted the alternative of reducing, on
a general scale, the great taxation of the country, can
we do better than assent to the first resolution of the Hon.
Member for *Manchester? In my opinion it is a prudent,
a politic, and a beneficial motion, and ought to be as-
sented to. Are we to be prevented from assenting to a
resolution so justified by circumstances, so practical
iu its character and beneficial as it must be in its
results by the ensanguined phantoms of a revolu-
tionary republic conjured up before us, and the pos-
sible catastrophe indicated in Delphic sentences?—
(Hear, hear.) We should not fear any misfortunes of
that kind. The very argument of the Noble Lord, that
the people of England is a population educated in politi-
cal knowledge and public liberty—an observation most
just and true—is the best security at all times for the
conduct of the people,—(Hear, hear.) After all that we
have seen of this somewhat eventful session, especially
as regards finance—after all we have seen respecting the
African squadron, to which, from motives of delicacy I
intend nut to allude, and which, from the uneasiness ex-
pressed on that side of the House whenever the subject
is referred to, has thrown a shade of darksome tint over
the Liberal benches—after ail we witnessed last night,
and all we may witness in feture, I trust the House will
not be frightened from taking that course which is jus-
tified by circumstances—% course which is consistent
with the state of the Exchequer, and in accordance with
public opinion. Let the House support, as I shall pre-
sume to do in the present instance, the first resolution
of the Right Hon Member for Manchester.—(Cheers.)
The House then divided on the first resolution—
For the first resolution
Against it ... ... ... ... 190
Majority against the first resolution --101
The second and third resolutions were then negatived.
On the fmrth, viz., that as to the repeal of the
customs duty on foreign books,
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know what objection the
Government could have to the repeal of a duty which,
whilst it prevented the poor man from enjoying the
benefits of reading a work imported from France, Ger-
many, or America, yielded but a very alight addition to
the revenue of the country.
After a few words from Mr. HUME condemnatory of
this duty,
The 4th resolution, like the 2d and 3d, was negatived.
INDUSTRIAL INVESTMENTS.
Mr. SLANEY then rose to move for a Select Com-
mittee to consider and suggest means of removing ob-
stacles and giving facilities to safe investments for the
savings of the middle and working classes, and fur
affording them the means of forming societies to insure
themselves against coming evils frequently recurring.
The richer the person and the larger the invest-
ment the less did it eost in proportion. Now,
taking a man possessed of 5,0001. as representing the
richer class, he might invest that sum in land at a cost
of only 2/. 103. per cent., or 1251. A man possessed of
only 5001. might represent the middle class, but the in-
vestment of that suns in land would cost him 101. per
cent., or 501.; whilst a man possessed of only 501. could
not invest it for less than 20 per cent., or 101. That gave
the humbler classes a strong claim to relief being afforded
to them in some other mode of investment. It might be
said they could invest in the public funds; but they
might invest when the funds were high,
and be obliged to sell out when the funds
were low, and thereby lose a part of their capital.
There was already an example for what he proposed.
The other day a large lodging-house for the humbler
classes had been established in this metropolis, in shares,
yielding profit, and he believed that the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government and the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, as well as the Noble Lord lately at the head
of the Woods and Forests, were partners in it. A char-
ter had been granted to it, and it was being carried on
by joint capital. But the local improvements which he
proposed could not at present be undertaken without a
separate Act of Parliament in each case. He asked,
thee, only that the same principle should be applied in
this case as was applied for the landed gentry a short
time since for the enclosure of commons, at a compara-
tively small expense. He did not ask the Government
to give anything, ,but to afford to the humbler classes the
means of a safe investment for their small savings. If
the Government though: his motion was too extensive,
ansi refused it, he trusted they would consider the sub-
ject, for he felt confident that, for the encouragement of
the middle and humbler classes, and attaching them to
this country, nothing was of more consequence than to
give them every facility for the safe investment of what
they had obtained by their labour and diligence.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had great pleasure in stating
he did not feel it necessary to oppose the motion of bis
lion. Friend. No one could doubt that the object of his
Hon. Friend was of the utmost importance, and he
thought it probable that the Committee might obtain va-
luable information on various topics connected with it;
at the same time some of those topics were of great dif-
ficulty. He agreed with his Hon. Friend that it was of
great consequence for industrious persons among the
bumbler classes to have greater facilities than they now
possessed of investing their savings in an easy and safe
manner, and he should be glad by every means in his
power to remove the obstacles to carrying out that ob-
ject. The inquiry, however, would involve serious
questions connected with the law of partnership, upon
which point he would refer to the evidence given by many
of the most eminent men in the mercantile world before
the Committ2e of 1837. But he would suggest to his
Hon. Friend the propriety of altering tho terms of his
motion, as the latter part of it was not very clear. The
first part of it was for a Select Committee to consider
and suggest means of removing obstacles and giving
facilities to safe investments for the savings of the mici-
dle and working classes, and so fa was clear enough;
but the latter part of it, " and for affording them the
means of forming societies to insure themselves against
coming evils frequently recurring," was obscure. The
Hon. Member had better omit the words.
Mr. P. HOWARD hoped the Committee would direct
its atteution to the removal of the difficulties with which
building societies had to contend.
Mr. SLANEY said he might defend the phraseology
of his motion by high authority—" Coming events cast
their shadows before;" but nevertheless he would omit
the passage which had been objected to.
The motion, as amended, was agreed to.
LEGAL APPOINTMENTS IN INDIA.
Mr. SADLEIR rose to move for " a return of all per-
sons in India receiving salaries, pensions, pay, profits,
fees, emoluments, allowances, or grants of public money,
by virtue of any direct or indirect nomination, recom-
mendation, or appointment by the President of the Board
of Control over the Affairs of India alone, or by virtue of
any arrangement with the Board of Directors of the East
India Company, and the dates of each such nomination,
recommendation; or appointment respectively, from
the Ist of January, 1832, to the Ist day of
March, 1850, excepting the judges of the su-
perior courts of law in India; stating the t dal amount
received by each individual in each year, and distin-
guishing the sources from which the payments are
made." His object in moving for this return was to show TO THE SECRETARY OF THE
that in the appointments to judgeships in India members BRADFORD REFORM ASSOCIATION.
of the Irish bar were unfairly passed over. Since 1825, Sir,—On Monday the 15th, the Chancellor of the
no member of the Irish bar had been made an Indian Exchequer's new Stamp Duties Bill was considered
judge. Indeed, be might say that during the last twenty-
in Committee.
five years the Indian bench had been filled up three times
As a good deal hangs by this which is of import-
from the English bar exclusively, and by barristers, too,
who could not boast of great practice or long standing. ante to those or. whom you are the organ, I have to
request that you will summon
It was true that during the period stated an Indian a jury of twelve good
men and true of the operative classes, and put your-
judgeship was offered to Mr. Richards, now Baron Ri-
che-els, the judge who presided over the Encumbered self, as is meet, for foreman; and by their decision I
will stand or fall.
Estates Commission. Mr. Richards, however, had then
been twenty-six years at the bar, was leading counsel in I need not tell such a jury, that in addition to the
the Rolls' Court, and was in the direct road to a seat on fact of taxation being heavier than needs,—which as
the. Irish bench; and, under these circumstances, he re- far as concerns the present argument shall be ad-
fused to go to India. The Right Hon. Gentleman had tnitted to any extent it is chosen to assign,—there
felled to fulfil his pledge of last year, that whenever a was another enormous evil, which in truth made
vacancy occurred on the Indian bench the claims of the
Irish bar would be fairly considered. If information
were furnished as to the administration of patronage by the sting of the whole as regards the working classes,
Right Hon. Gentleman in other departments, the poor than on the rich, in pro-
theWhich was or is, that the taxation was levied by a
higher rate upon the
instances theo.
same partiality, as regards England and Scotland, would
Portion of eleven to one. If the rich had taxed the
be demonstrated. ppoorrtions varying in different up to pr
Sir J. HOBROUSE observed, that if he did not P rate of themselves,
ht have been
give so satisfactory an answer as he could wish it the magnitude of the whole taxation miegdtha t f Poor at an eleventh part of the .
would be because the return had reference to all pa- something approaching to the hunhdre e p
mr . o
tronage, with the special exception of judicial patronage, the importance it is at present and t er for .I. am-
to which alone the speech of the Hon. Gentleman re- taro lam right in saying, that the higher rate upon
lated. With every inclination in the world, it was im- the poor was what made the sting, and consequently
possible to give the information sought in the return. was one of the first things to be removed when
The pledge of last session was, that when a vacancy possible.
took place in India the claims of the Irish bar would be At last, then, there comes a Chancellor of the Ex_
fai, ly considered; and a week had not passed when a
communication was made to Lord Clarendon, asking upon the poor is an enormity, and I
chequer whe says, "I am conscious that this higher
will remove
him whether there was any gentleman he could recom-
; The Stamp Duties are glaring '
a instance, for
mend. He (Sir J. liobhouse) had recommended two -t. • l find
judges for Penang. When the Recordership of Penang there you wilthe poor man who has scraped
together 50/. and wants to lend it on security, is
rate ,
again fell vacant he again wrote to the Irish authorities, 0
and, in consequence, a member of the Irish bar came to taxed 1/., or e per cent., while the man who wants
London, but that gentleman discovered that it was a to lend 1,000/., 2,000/., Sec., is taxed at a continually
penal settlement—not because he was himself to be sent decreasing rate, till it ends in settling that beyond
there for punishment—(A laugh)—and he refused to the tax of 25/. there shall be no increase of tax at
accept of the Indian appointment, worth something like all. This then I will proceed to mend. And
tahbeou poort it
man, I
who
will
4,0001. a year, and certainly no disgrace attached. lie not to go in a peddling
then wrote again to the Irish Government, and the re-
begin by reducing the payment
a ofy
hp
stilt was that a member of the Irish bar was at this
rno-
has scra ether 50/., from twenty shillings to
half-a-crown, ed to
and I will force the rich to pay up at
mofe,nateßriencgo,rdheer
tohfePuegnhatnfigv. e
tHime
ehea, dplhaseeds the
on
stahteisflsecdtii.oane
bench to Irish barristers, and ho had also had the setts- t e same rate, which I calculate will bring me within
faction of being refused on every occasion. Indeed, he 300,000/. of my old receipts, and that difference lam
could assure the lion. Gentleman that he laboured rsear,dlyutso.,,surrender to the concerned, as portion of my
them;they
u p
under
tali greats
tnai ihsecrou c elpt tlivoans iifm
phoes s
ithhl(e) utgohito
rgthat r
he Tories of course grumbled aloud. They stated
—(A
ilatig wash out of his power .)
lie had no piers-
in distinct words, only not put together so closely as
Choyti4
m of
ud notl
doingso, allow t
h et
ii f .
he lad it
to blet out from the memory of the moment all they did
whether long or short, I shall do it, that the rich were the really poor,—that
they were subject to a thousand risks and sufferings
and all they suffered.—(A laugh.) At any rate, during
of which the poor had no idea, and consequently the
he would repeat his pledge to the Hon. Gentleman, business of a statesman and a Chancellor of the Ex-
his time at the ledian board,
chequer was to consult the interests of the rich,
and, wheeeter en epportimity occurred, would fulfil it
mot lionestly.—(Hear, hear.) and see that they had the due allowance made them
Mr. KEOGH said the question before the House Was in the rate of -taxation, which their unhappy stat,e.
not as to the importunities of the Irish bar, with respect demanded. And when pushed by the Chancelloi:
_if
to which the Right Honourable Gentleman had the Exchequer with the injustice of their princ,:p_le.
been kind enough to raise a smile, but simply beyond their means of answering, they said, it,
whether a statute having been passed prior then, we are to be subjected to an equality of taxa-
least
to the Act of Union, which entitled the members tion in this matter, let us at all events have the
of tho Irish bar to a share of the Indian patronage,
e can of it;" and a Conservative 11\lember of known
they had enjoyed that share ; and he took leave to think w-. .
forward his amendment, that the rate
activity pressed
that the Right Hon. Gentleman had most distinctlyto determine all the rest) should
evadel that question. Certainly during the last quarter on 501. (which was
crown to a shilling. In other
of a century not one Irish barrister had held a judicial be reduced from hal -a-
a that if a system f fair
0
appointment in India with a salary of 8,0001. a-year. The word, the Tories move _
osed upon the rich, the extent
fact undoubtedly was, that since the establishment of taxation was to be imp .
d should bedX •
the Br tish empire in India, and since the formation of to which it should be carrie,_. iminished in
the Supreme Courts in the three presidencies, not more the
proportion of 2 to 5. They woul agree, they
than three members of the Irish bar had filled judicial virtually said, to so much of taxation as would leave
appointments there, and those three had been appointed them at nearly their old payments ; but if the Chan-
between the years 1800 and 1825. He saw nothing ex- cellor of the exchequer ivianted to relieve the poor,
traordivary pa the ;terms of the motion, and thought
- •

23
53
-39

The House then adjourned, at half-pant Twelve.

PARLIAMENTARYDIVISIONS.

(From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of COMMONS )
TUESDAY, APRIL 16.
PAPER DUTY.
Motion made, and Question put, " That whereas all taxes
which directly impede the diffusion of knowledge are highly
injurious to the public interest, and are most impolitic
sources of revenue, this House is of opinion that such finan-
cial arrangements ought to be made as will enable Parlia-
ment to repeal the Excise Duty on Paper." The House
divided :

MINORITY-AYES, 89.
Adair, R. A. Fox, W. J. Nugent, Lord
Adair, Hugh E. Galway, Viscount O'Brien, Sir Lucius
Alcock, Thomas Granby, Marquis of 0 Connor, Fearguis
Baillie, H. J. Greenall, Gilbert I'echell, Sir G.
Bennet, Philip Greene, John Pilkington, James
Beresford, William Guernsey, Lord Portal, Melville
Best, John Gwyn, Rowel Prime, Richard
Blair, Stephen llall, Sir Benjamin Ricardo, J. L.
Biewitt, Reginald Hustle, Alexander Roebuck, J. A.
Boldero, 11. G. Hepworth, Lawrence Rushout, Captain
Booth, Sir R. G. Hildyard, R. C. Sadlsir, John
Bright, John Hill, Lord E. Salwey, Colonel
Amen, Colonel Hodgson, W. N. Scholefleld, W.
Chattcrton, Colonel Hope, 11. T. Seymer, Henry Her
Cobden, R. Hume, Joseph Smith, John B.
Cole, 11. A. Keating, Robert Stanford, J. F.
Compton, 11. C. King, P. J. Stanley, E. H.
Conelly, Thomas Lawless, Cecil Stuart, Lord D.
CraWford, W. S. Lennox, Lord A. Stuart, John
Devereux, J. T. Lennox, Lord II G. Thompson, Colonel
Disraeli, B. Long, Walter Thompson, George
Dod, J. W. Lushington, Charles Trelawny, J. S.
Duncan, George Mackenzie, W. F. Vyse, 11.
Duncombe, T. M'Gregor, John Waddington, H. S.
Edwards, Henry Manners, Lord J. Walmsley, Sir J.
Ellis, John Marshall, J. G. Williams, John
Ewart, William _
Molesvrorth, Sir W. Wyld, James
Fagan, William Mowatt, Francis
Fellowes, E. Mullings. J. R. TELLII.II.
Milner, Sir E. Mundy, William Gibson, T. M.
Forbes, William Naas, Lord Cowan, Charles

Abdy, Sir Thomas
Aglionby, 11. A.
Anson, Colonel

Armstrong, Sir A.
Bagshaw, John

Barnes, M. T.

Baring, Sir F. T.
Baring, Thomas
Bass, Thomas

Bellew, B. M.

Berkeley, Admiral
Berkeley, C. L. G.
Bernal, Ralph

MAJORITY—NOES, 190.
Fortescue, Chichester Morison, Sir W.
Fortescue, J. W. Morris, David
Fox, S. L. Mostyn, E. M.
Freestun, Colonel Mulgrave, Earl
Frewen, C. H. Norreys, Lord
Goddard, A. L. Ogle, S. C.
Goulburn, Henry Ord, William
Grace, 0. D. Paget, Lord A.
Greene, Thomas Paget, Lord C.
Grenfell, C. Pascoe Paget, Lord G.
Grenfell, Charles W. Pakington, Sir J.
Grey, Sir Georgo Palmerston, Viscount
Grosvenor, Earl Parker, John
Guest, Sir J. Patton, J. W.
Raiford, Sir Henry Peel,:Sir,Robert
Hanmer,tSir John Peel, Frederick
Harcourt, G. Perfect, R.
Hardcastle, J. A. Pigott, Francis
Harris, Richard Plowden, W. H.
Hastie, Archibald Plumptre, J. P.
llatchell, John Power, Nicholas
Hawes, B. Itawdon, Colonel
Hayes,;Sir E. Reid, Colonel
Hayter, W. G. Rich, Henry
Readlam, Thomas Homily, Colonel
Ileald,yames Hominy, Sir John
Heathcoat, John Russell, Lord John
Ileneags, G. H. W. Russell, F. C.
Henry, Alexander Rutherford, A.
Herbert, li. A. Scrope, G. P.
Herbert, Sydney Seymour, Lord
Hobhouse, Sir John Shalto, R. D.
Ilobhouse, T. B. Slaney, Robert A.
Hodges, T. L. Smith, R. V.
Hedges, T. Twisden Smith, J. A.
Ilollond, Robert Somerville, Sir W.
Hotham, Lord Spearman, H. J.
Howard, Lord E. Stansfleld, W. R. C.
Howard, C.W. Strickland, Sir G.
Howard, I'. H. Stuart, Lord J.
Inglis, Sir It. H. Stuart, H.
Jervis, Sir John Talbot, J. 11.
Johnstone, Sir J. Tancred, H. W.
Jones, Captain 1 hicknesse, R. A.
Keogh, William Thornely, T.
Labouchere, Henry Tolicmache, F. J.
Langston, J. 11. Townshend, Captain
Lascelles, W. S. Tufnell, limey
Lewis, George C: Vane, Lord H.
Lindsay, Colonel Verney, Sir:ll.
Littleton, E. R. Walter, John
Locke, Joseph Watkins, Colonel
Loveden, Pryse Wegg-Prosser, F.
Lygon, General Wellesley, Lord C,
Mackie, John Willcox, Brodie
3PNeill, Duncan Wilson, James
M'Taggart, Sir J. Wilson, Matthew
Mahon, Lord Wood, Sir Charles
Mangles, R. D. Wrightson, W. B.
Matheson, Colonel Wyvill, Marmadake
Manic, Fox
Milner, W. M.
31ilues, R. M.
Mitchell, T. A.
Monsen, William

Blackall, S. W.
Blake, Martin J.
Blakemore, K.
Bowles, Admiral
Brockman, E. D.
Brotherton, J.

Browne, R. D.
Busfeild, W.

Campbell, W. F.
Carter, John B.
Chaplin, W. J.
Childers, J. W.
Clements, Charles
Clerk Sir G.
Clifford, H. M.
Clive, Henry B.
Cobbold, John C.
Cockburn, A. J.
Coke, E. K.
Colebrooke, Sir T.
Coles, Henry B.
Cowper, W. F.
Craig, Sir W. G.
Crowder, It. B.
Cubitt, William
Dalrymple, Captain
Davie, Sir 11.
Dawson, T. V.
Denison, J. E.
D'Eyneourt, C. T.
Drumianrig, Vis.
Duff, George S.
Duff, James

Duke, Sir James
Duncuft, John
Dundas, Admiral
Dundas, Sir David
Ebrington, Lord
Egerton, Sir I'.
Elliot, J. E.
Estcourt, J. B. B.
Evans, J.
Evans, William
Evelyn, W. J.

Farrer, James

Fergus, John
Ferguson, Sir R.
Fitzpatrick, J. W.
Foley, John 11.
Fordyce, A. D.
Forster, Mathew

TZLLERS.
inn, Lord Marcus
Grey, Ralph W.

PATRONAGE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD

OF CONTROL.

Motion made, and Question put, " That there be laid
before this House a Return of all Persona in India receiving
salaries, pensions, pay, profits, fees, emoluments, allowances,
or grants of public money, by virtue of any direct or indirect
nomination, recommendation, or appointment by the Presi-
dent of the Board of Control over the Affairs of India alone,
or by virtue of any arrangement with the Board of Directors
of the East India Company, and the dates of each such
nomination, recommendation, or appointment respectively,
from the Ist day of January, 1832, to the Ist day of March,
1850, excepting the Judges of the Superior Courts of Law in
India; stating the total amount received by each individual
in each year, and distinguishing the sources from which the
payments are ma 'e." The House divided :
MINORITY—AYES, 23.
Ansley. Thomas C. Dundas, George Lawless, Cecil
liass,%M. T. Miner, Sir E. Naas, Lord
Best, John Greene, John Rawdon, Colonel
Blake, M. J. Plalsey, T. I'. Schole field, William
Cobbold, J. C. Rives, Sir E. Tenison, E. K.
Cottony, Thomas henry, Alexander
Dawson, T. V. Ilerbert, 11. A. MIAMI.
Deverenx, John T. Keating, Robert Sadlcir, John
Dick, Quintin King, V.A. Keogh, William