The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-12 00:00:00

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Officer would let the Hom,e go to a division, without di-
thviding on the motion. It had brea a loug time le fore
vroci J. l se; and was an advance, not a grant, to Ireland.
expressed hisde
RUSSELLti. said in
.resect to the Bill he Pal
The eto bring forward before Easter.
no was. he had found, an order for returns; but it had
immediate refererce to the Bill. It was sent to Ire-
zll, and the reply had
art yet le ea received. When it
~received it would be laid before the House.
hour
G. BANKES did not think the motion his
:Jun and Gallant Friend an unreasonable one, at that
tour of the night, and considering the constitution of the
burse ue was almost exclusively Irish in its character. The
.1
had hem told on previous occasions that each ad-
vance would be the last; but ho was of cpinion that
oans and grants in this case were all the same.—(" No.
theno." from several Irish Members.) He had not heard
precise grounds for the grant in question made by
e Noble Lord; and he thought it would ho more
atisfretory to the county that the debate should be
adjourned. y
s• Cteelylrish;
I°fie n
11)UoNNE denied that the House was exclu-
the contrary, Irish Members were
a
mostl y absent on Irish questions, and so, generally
House. were Hon. Mr tubers on tho "other side of the
at °use- He regretted that the Bill was brought forward
that
ate hour, as many Irish Members were anxious
the Pr ss their opinions on the subject; especially as
Y might then get a reply from the Noble Lord on the
subject of
I the poor-law in Ireland. There would al-
cireatYtiseih.e applications tor grants
made until that question was
As ne proper explanation had been given of the
in which the money was to be disposed of, he
shoal which
also concur in the adjournment.
the HERBERT also thought it advisable to adjourn
th debate. 11e must at the startle time protest against
e Proposition of the
agar Member (Mr. Bankes), that
X" and grants, as rded Ireland, ere the same
b leng' He was prepared to show that the money lent
s" on all occasions been repaid, until the la,e calami-
tous famine by which that country was afflicted; and he
Would further show, by the evidence of Sir John Bur-
alaPe"—sie English commoner—that England had :eau-
)i
11 made a considerable profit by its loans to Ireland, a
gher interest being received there than could be ob-
tained elsewhere. He thought, then, that these charges
u_n_gitt not to be lightly made, as they were calculated to
Ciadice Ireland in the eyes of the people of England.
regard
to the present grant, he must say that no
one regretted more than he did the existing system of
the and grants to Ireland, but it arose mainly because
_ advice of Hon. Members, who knew what were the
7.ante and requirements of Ireland, had been totally
alsregarded.—(Hear, hear.)
okoeelt• M. FOX reminded the House that out of
til_eetes,etdoeolo.flent to Ireland, according to returns laid on
that House, not less than 7,000,0001. had
den repaid.
He hoped, upon the serious charges that
had been brought against Irish Members, that the Go-
anrnment would postpone the question, to afford them
The
of replying to them.
th.4,11e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
'lseouse that their means were in such a state of pe-
d,,i,unetraray embarrassment that any delay would be Pro-
of the greatest inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.)
ie appealed to the House whether it would not be most
cruel to postpone the consideration of the grants to these
unions until the whole question of the policy of the
triflttlting loans of money to Ireland, and the manner in
thcalirdthßy had been disposed of, were entered into?
BERNARD admitted that the question was of
tl greatest importance to Ireland, to facilitate the set-
tee:Lent °I the poor-law in that country. There were
b„ e Complicated arrangements to be made contingently
'-r°ll the granting of this loan, and the delay would
doubtless be productive of the greatest possible incon-
e2ienFe. No bne could regret more then himself the
`esslty of these appeals on the part of Ireland, but he
felt satisfied that the present grant would be productive
of the greatest advantage, and relieve a great deal of the
existiug suffering and distress.
obse
The
O'GORMAN MAHON protested against the
sVations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
anY Portion of the Irish Members wished to offer any
Uposition to the progress of the present measure. The
honourable Member for Dorsetshire had made an impu-
againat Ireland and Irish Members generally;
but
bn that charge had been fairly and honourably met,
d had been met by anticipation by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
himself before Easter, when he told the House that the
loans
to Ireland had been repaid with a punctuality that
was quite wonderful under the circumstances. He trusted
his Hon. and Gallant Friend, with whom he had sat so
many years in that House, would not persevere in his
present motion. He knew him to be erratic and Quix-
otic occasionally—(A laugh)—but ever good-humoured
and cheerful, never doing any mischief, but if he perse-
vered on the present occasion he certainly would do
Mischief. yet he never was disposed to do an ungenerous
act. When he stated that thousands of his countrymen
bad died, and thousands were still suffering, he thought
it unnecessary to make any further appeal to the Hon.
and Gallant Member to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. G. BANKES stated that he had not meant to cast
any imputation on the people of Ireland. All that he
bad intended to say war, that although they had repaid
as large a portion of those advances as their unhappy
condition had allowed, they had not repaid as much as
he could have desired.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL expressed a hope that the
house would reserve until the Committee the considera-
tion of the details of the Bill.
Mr. A. STAFFORD said he was well aware of the
necessity of adopting that measure, and he only wished
the Government had given it precedence over that other
Irish Bill with which the House had been occupied du-
ring so large a portion of the evening. He should be
ar reer ed to supprrt the second reading of the Bill, if
her Majesty's Ministers would give an assurance that
they would, on a future occasion, give an ample oppor-
tunity for its consideration.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that, in a district with which
"met, Was intimately acquainted, the Poor-law Commis-
--"irers had thwarted the efforts of the g
mount of expenditure. The uardians to re-
duce the a guardians had
rUePosed that the salaries of the officers should be re-
ed by a sum of 2,500/., but the Commissioners had
refused to sanction any reduction.
Lord J. MANNERS said he :hoped that for the fu-
!lie the Government would press forward that measure
t;ln preference to the Irish Franchise Bill. He should be
e11.3' much surprised if the Irish Members did not feel
mat the measure then under their consideration was of
uch more immediate importance to their unhappy
untry,
Viscount NAAS said that unless the Government
Pan ledged themselves to afford the House on an early day
repportnnity of filly considering the Bill, he should
ho it his duty to vote in favour of the adjournment of
.Lord J.
discussion.
at RUSSELL said, that if Hon. Gentlemen
W,lshed to have an opportunity of entering into a general
of the state of Ireland, he should be quite
ceiseuesioa
retlY to bring forward that measure at an early period
for the purpose of affording that oppor-
could net pledge himself in the present
114itutantret;'scussi of.
onve.Brinint4b,
public business to fix an early day for such
a
that SIBTHORP said he was not satisfied with
tb"" answer of the Noble Lord, and he should therefore
Press his amendment.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment of the House 23
Against it 131
Majority against the
in for adjournment --108
Lord JOHN RUSSELLinformed the Honourable
and G 11
a ant Member for Lincoln that the papers he
tbie desirous to have produced were actually on the
t es the House, although they were not printed.
Colo the
SIBTHORP—Not on my table.—(Laughter.)
"
not to be changed from that course which I con-
'
, r the roer , I move that the Bill Itic! a secopndp timeone thisand day sixnow months.—(oh, oh.) be
A.RKW RIGHT seconded the amendment.
fa"lr• SPOONER thought that the Noble Lord had
vanished the best reason that could be urged for the
eoititellnnensent of this measure. He was not prepared to
tathe either for or against the Bill until he had seen
ste Papers. He would now move the adjournment of
.
- mistime
asked
, Colonel SIBTHORP said that he had repeatedly
beeneu for the production of these papers, and had never
the 4.illf°ouse hued until then that they were on the table of
ee
.51clubse,TER said that the Hon. and. Gallant
E s and applied to him on the subject before
eolinaLetrotrelltuout these papers, which could not be produced
after Easter. They were not, however, printed.
JOHN RUSSELL said that unless the House
;afraid to read the Bill now a second time he was
01._aid it would be impossible to appoint a convenient day
r its discussion.
M. BANKES did not understand the Noble Lord to
laike a day for the discussion of this measure. When
p
Para were moved for, having reference to a Government
omeasure, he thought the Government were responsible
for the printing of them.
The O'GORMAN MAHON asked the Right Hon. the
"Natter whether these papers ought not CO have been
Printed?
The SPEAKER said that it was not necessary, un-
ess an application was made to the Printing Com-
reittee, or a motion was made in the House to have them
Printed.
a Lord J. RUSSELL said that if this Bill were to be
gefeeted by an opposition of this kind, it would be well
feat the country should understand the nature of these
Peated divisions.
4,er• A. STAFFORD having voted with the minority
0,
.ne last division, could not, in consistency, Tote witb
the Noble Lord.
The House again divided, when there appeared—
Poe the adjournment of the debate 6
Against it ..• ***
134
Majority against the adjournment —l2B _
weelonel Sibthorp's amendment was then negatived
Ttout a division.
".e Bill was ultimately read a second timeTheerl 11 the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
"EQUER
end he Stamp end
ood vi Duties Bill went pro forma into Committee
as ordered to be reprinted and recommitted on
COlO
%IA "I SIBTHORP moved that the papers be printed,
Jtave notice of his intention, on the motion of the
,t4no_further
e a read in-, that he would move an ameudment that
progress of it be postponed until that day six
.I,t4.—(Latightmr.)
the Ken CRANCELLORof the EXCHEQUER reminded
Just . and Gallant Gentleman that the Bill that had
net then in Committee was the Stamp Duties Bill, and
in re e Distressed Unions Advances (Ireland) Bill, and
ceolot bie printed.
der (113ect to his motion, the papers had already been or-
I shall SIBTHORP—Then I wish to give notice that
The 2ppose every Government Bill.—(Laughter.)
andihe house having resumed,
ee Judgments (Ireland) Bill was read a third time
Trssed.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in a Bill to