The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-18 00:00:00

TH E SUN,

ttold
4 to-eight was connected with the nationa'ty of
vi.ldl
el• What was the treatment which the Merquis of
wc,idlesleT, ciarunt et venerabile nomen, received—he who
e raised the first volunteer corps in Ireland in
/ h Roman Catholics were permitted to serve.
1812 the Noble Marquis had refused the
nlahest rank in the Cabinet because he would
and give up the question of Roman Catholic relief,
it was said of that distinguished nobleman by
cul.'• Wyse that he had left Ireland without having con-
;tided the one party and disliked by the other. What
Il!ts the treatment of another Lord-Lieutenant, whose..
ill'souled intentions, public spirit, and great abilities,
,tend el to render everything' that was good or great
p-.3lll°nYmous with the name of Anglesea? Was he not
ut with obloquy and abuse; and did it not come
cost eveord Cloncurry's memoirs that so far from being
's'eroi, he was disposed to make every pro
_lip!: to the people? And, to come down to later rimes,
per conces-
;lb t had been the treatment given to Lord Clarendo
s_lnao, he would be bold to say, in spite•of what
badh d
stated by the Hon. Member for Meath, who
Pursued the Itea e even tenor of his way" without looking
"o or English interests, but to the common weal f
saw
e genetally—what, he asked, was the treatment
()fared to
to cll. that Noble Earl? He would not be surprise
ci turn attacked and ridiculed by those whose revo-
:watery schemes he had batiled; but when he found him
hills by persons of high station and known respec
ps 43' in the country, f having, in the discharge of his
resaell.h.ao.ded justicedijsrmissed three magistrates from the
`4ls'l°ll of the peace, he (Mr. Bernal Osborne) felt
r'•was high time that such an office as that of Lord-
Isteutetiant of Ireland should be abolished.—(Hear.) A
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, be he ever so pure, impar-
t. a or disinterested in his conduct, could not escape deis-
di•lplen* Ile could only hope, by the frequency of his
hie
l tillers, the excellence of his wines, and the extent
and
foi•h°sPit'lltY, to maintain a character for talent and
°Lour
Pashas" of •
amongst the favoured classes who were ma e
Artl h his generosity. It was an office where
turP. ytrion ranked before Solon, Beau Nash before
bee "'
and the practical experience of a French cook
leu'le the exalted wisdom of a Wellesley.—(Hear, and
miter f
gliter) Ile would ask who was e1822.b Mi-
ls, or Ireland in that House? In the Lord-
th nteoant was in favour of Catholic Emancidation; but
enke,etieltnlie,f Secretary, the Home Secretary, and the Lord-
reSp nlor were opposed to it. There was no really
titeaes s-'lO Minister for Ireland then in the House. The
span anowever, were altered now. We now saw a re-
st Minister in that House. The Right Hon
rsa-a"mee who now held that office was undoubtedly a
ta;,°l.Thigh honour and ability, But what was the
pith any lion. Member asked a question connected
41eti, Ireland of the Irish Solicitor-General be was im-
bli'telY referred to the English Solicitor-General, and
ilea iap n he Was again referred to the Right Hon. Gen-
in ss a, a.
f
act "le Home Secretary.—(Laughter.) It was, in
could ' one by a kind of Cesarean operation the querist
aers, °Dates any information from the Solicitor-Cs -
chifor stn any
There was the office ofo
01:etel.:Staecursettery for Ireland. Although that was said t
;B„ert of preparatory school for English states.men,
be viewed as a very high and distiaguished
Would' for if a man but looked into the estimates, he
Fail bpd el that the fortunate occupant of that office
rwas
camel ulgher salary than any of the Cabinet Ministe s—
assq,ai3'B! 5,500/. a year, two houses besides, with the usual
cerisiralteg•--(liear, hear, and laughter.) After as-
Wr"lhg this fact, would any person tell him that the
e' Secretary fo;lreland was an irresponsible officer?
Pointe!l e lion • Baronet the Member fur Drogheda was
d • ---
Chief Secretary for Ireland, he (Mr. Osborne)
ler';.reat hopes that the great Irish difficulty would be
hurrigkth solved. He thought that the Hon. Baronet
kte!au'ruenl'e proposed a series of good and substantial
o is, 5 for Ireland. The Hon. Baronet was well known
Political partisan, who was selected in 1846 to fill
lissi()dwee because he had moved the amendment which
Cal al;ltreYed the late Government. He was the politi-
laita a'° that had rent the oak, but was now to be seen
lie 7;,1 hands fettered in consequence of the opera-
St all' then, like Milo, he could do no more, ho might,
to see:fiets, palliate his weakness by pleading a desire
torasa-1, e'rerybody.—(Laughter.) But was it not n01e,h,%,.
le,h,%,. a he was asked a question in reference to the
eiees
ktieisat etle would say he would be obliged to com-
it not with the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland ? Was.
/lowa notorious that Bills were introduced into this
reapecting Ireland which they never heard more
less 'erryards ? These Bills were often revived by the
titneecloent suggestions of the Irish Members. Some-
Lord-Lieutenant controlled the Chief Secre-
lessTiu 2olnetimes the Chief Secretary the Lord-Lieu-
nth.°,,,,%?_ci sometimes the Under Secretary controlled
hear There was another mysterious personage to be
°her off in these performances—namely, the law ad-
-4lltl the Castle, who remained behind the scenes,
Pulled the strings by which the decrepid wisdohm
asti ° faultering mandates of the ntoecini o.fht e
teniehWere called into operation. He heard somee
444 t as to the great majority of the Irish people being
ht
for the retention of the office. He, however,r
berth 1n his band an extract from a high 1-
this ,frPaPer, called tno Nation, which was to
ode e'"eet The appeal made from Dublin to
:5! ji,l4,°'rinces in favour of the Lord-Lieutenancy
ttt Sl'"ad has met with no support, except
'go• le-
st, • Kilkenny, Drogheda, and
.Limerick refuse to
21 aliltning to do with it. In the city of Dublin only
ofsins the Post-office Ward had declared
sis3tl;isrthe Gsovrnment Bill, and one meeting of the
ards at which only 12 persons attended."
.Some
los 4: were influenced by pecuniary motives in wishing
Lther e continuance of this office in Ireland, and some
"teetwere who looked at the Castle of Dublin as Ma-
-I)esee,;;wos said to look at Mecca—full of hope and ex-
l'oe's'rj'en."--(Lau hter.) This question, however, nar-
ths itself to agDubln question.—(Bear, hear.) Alld
80s4ss,"fntages of a port, a healthy situation, an
inhabitants, and the courts of law, were
.° Pac`he dependent upon the retention of
er•• Ile however, felt confident that a
s el- °fflstation on the west coast of Ireland, and
ficii°c
1 ksauld .Y'rui at Cork, would prove much more bone-
Ireland than the best ,Lord-Lieutenant they
,r4,tlea a,`Lvei and ho was sure that Dublin would. prosper
''taes,-"nre Under such circumstances than in
.theoco....n-
Cils„le of a mock court and a party-coloured veer y.he
Niles' Ile had looked into the Act of Union and
l'ete4t. 43' that there was not one word in it about the
/vas alae!lt of the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland.
Council There
W4ll 'ltid of obligation in it that the Privy
Wtia 4lt to be extinguished. In his mind, that proviso
'atip„,stl,ffioient to show that Mr. Pitt had intended
flat dish the office of Lord-Lieutenant. He thoughtd
'or sv.4 grievances of Ireland must be redressed, an
pas 444 healed by a series of remedial measures.—
'4
a')
the
'•ri They [MIS t revise the system of poor-
Y,
r 3 f they wished to have a people and a coun-
"eel, 4ere was another thing which they should do
the Put the slightest hesitation. So long as they left
not hrctestant Church in its present state, they could
l'aellevesspeace, proserity, or justice in Ireland.—(Hear,
flat tie was happy to hear from the Noble Lord
fc`citiletel4; Majesty's intention to visit Ireland more
the future. He hoped that this wa d
trh anise not merel confined to this House. He wishe
littlest; would take up her residence there
m"re6S-eral Months. He for one would occas.lonally
!log -0 Objection to this Parliament holding its sa-
ver: nth
Ele hear from the Irish Mem-
ae onou(rablaer'Members must not talk of Ire-
- sthey would of the Isle of Wight. They
itof peonrieecollect that she was a nation of 8,000,000
tetty and therefore should not he treated as
f PreYince. The Roman Catholicof Dblin could
tistiel:Fet that the hateful phrase "Protestant asce
collar first originated in tee Castle of Dublin.
.Hste.
Ince pef°n,neet no one national sentiment with the exi
He
"43 se tn° office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland.
ileac ere
e „ that the spirit of nationality would burn with a
Ne a''ght when t ceased to draw its inspirations from
a• ,i 4 flame of Castle influence.—(Hear, hear.)
;be (YBRIEN,who was occasionally inaudible in
s- —ere •
asa6 said, ho thought that the loss of this office
lift would be a very serious one indeed. The
ariatilso the Queen for a week or two would prove but.
'oted eorapensation for the injury that would be in-
:or j ;41 the countr • if this Bill passed. The Secretary
Firrese44,44 would then be obliged to depend for all his
,•Iltsc-.llt'erl from ersons coming to his office upon
t`ot eonnectedpwith Ireland. He thought that the
e'orh-nlent would incur a great risk by proceeding in
"a4rop-ar,3e which they had that night proposed. The. Hon.
'ataspi-ra• Concluded by saying that he would give the
eyery opposition in his power. ,
of lEI'NOLDS trusted, as representative for
ethxe.
Ilse far'Albin), he might be permitted to plead an
throwinghimself upon the indulgence of the
th, 4e• It
Ctlnk was the habit of the
'se IX, height of his political glory, when addressing.
lite—ulY of his fellow-countrymen, and exulting
n
Deal
rao,latrirto..soef some po, p ul a r p ilege, to say " Thls
f tOr 'ay tor Ireland. ' His Hon. Friend the Mem-
might exclaim, " This is a great night
f Ili."' because, although the Noble Lord at the head
14:qitenGea'eroment had now introduced this Bill, any
troie:
ettats-r. uetaerit it was entitled to must be brought
the credit, or debit of the lion. Member for Mon-
Id a teeideeintention to deprive the people of Ireland
viceroy, was clearly trace,able to the Hon.
thtilber r Montrose. In May, 1833H0n0
urable
submitted a similar motion to the one before
a'tetir 1118, but receiving no great support he. with-
nd
el'iaia In May, 1830, he repeated the experiment,
,`,lhe i"etti the House on his motion for an address.
~Nat (47,nuers were-115 for and 229 against it.. In
t-tstic'agh-t:Iko there were only four Irishmen patriotic
'at i„,`? 'rote with his Honourable Friend ; but now
"'ett I,netisna of his (Mr. Reynold's)
413 n ()lac'', it would seem,. increased very much in
fellow-country-
a'llreiclarestte direction ; for he found that the most
BPeeches in favour of the motion were made by
Ivith 811 breshre
th their v n, and that they not only supported it
atentes, but with their cheers. His Hun. Friend
noes °leer for Cork, for instance, had followed that
nesl , o
0141 I) • tithe ground, as he alleged, of the people of Ire-
tsvourable to the measure. ; and he had the bold-
PhQ,l°,4,Bl)le.",,efll7llll,ll.niatterea it.temeroityfleto assert that the
k" • e'er h were especially s (Mr. Reynolds)
s tleoe ' new the
'note s•atti he • • to give the flattest
People of Dublin better than his Hon.
liB,o4hetion
.aS ILI a pobiiion
rlt woi,uto that statement which the forms of Par-
s v4Olic "``' permit, Not more than two months ago
-op - ttleet.
tltY Inn' was held by the high sheriff. of the
41° °f I)ubli •
the Pted . as - on the subject and a petition was
-ge teat meeting condemning' the proposition of
ti 'able Lord kgctet sines h in the strongest terms; and not a fort-
(Mr. Reynolds), in his capacity of Lord
lae37l3l'' ealleae
a eta% a meeting also, more numerous, more re-
"en held' and raore
titian in publ* influential than had ever. . before
taw's-that ws, 111 under a roof, when a similar pe-
ltataasin, "lola he had presented in the course of the
was kened by 10,000 inhabitants, was the result.
it'',,fellaw.'_tta. answer to the calumnies uttered against
ttie
urzeo,itiaens by the Hon. Member for Cork. But
the ore. I,,t,hat petitions had not been sent against the
and People heat wall true. But why?—simply because
bw.„ lin nfidence in the House of Commons,
*silo 'they were tleginuivg to tbiu4 4

a waste of time and paper therefore to petition. Tbey
were satisfied that it was the result of a foregone con-
clusion, and they knew that Whigs and Tories always
coalesced when Ireland was to be sacrificed to the princi-
ple of centralisation. In May, 1844, the Hon. Member
for Montrose tried the experiment again; and now the
Prime Minister adopted the Hon. Member's plan, and
in May, 1830, brought it forward. On the last occasion
of the Hon. Member for Montrose's motion, Mr. Gout-
burn, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a speech
‘lhich was one of the " curiosities of literature "against
the motion. He also voted against it. So did the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government; so did the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth. Where were the Right
Hon. Gentlemen at that moment? Where was Mr.
Goulburn? Were they absent lest they should embar-
rass the Prime Minister? Was their absence the re-
sult of a foregone conclusion? But though absent from
the Housetheir,opinions still lived in" Hansard," and he
would read a few extracts from them for the House.
He might be told that they changed as they did on the
corn-laws—(Hear, hear)—and that there was no more
rascally principle than consistency. It might be so, and
his own view was that it sometimes meant a perseverance
in error. Mr. Hume had argued the question on the
ground of economy; but Mr. Goulburn said that the
proposition was derogatory to the character of Ireland,
and fatal to the best interests of that country.
Sir Robert Peel said also the rebellions cf 1798
and 1803 proved the necessity of a superior direc-
tion to the vigilance of the executive. Richard Martin,

the late Member for Galway, who had himself voted for

the union, v said it was positively understood at that
period that there should be a permanent Lord-Lieute•
cant always resident in Ireland ; and in 1844 Lord J.
Russell said that such a change would be unsatisfactory
to the people of Ireland, and that having had to' consider
the question on a previous occasion he had come to the
conclusion that it was not expedient at that time to
carry that project into effect.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord
John Russell.) The Noble Lord had said, in the course
of his observations that night, that the Lord-Lieutenant
had pacified Ireland, that Ireland was now perfectly
tranquil, and that the state of that country was quite
satisfactory ; but was not that a reason for retaining
rather than abolishing the office ? The Honourable
Members for Cork and Middlesex had quoted the his-
tory of the Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland—but to what
purpose ? Was it not a waste of time and trouble to
refer to Strafford and his successors an the present

question ? The Honourable Member for Middlesex
had the advantage, however, of ha►ing graduated at the
Castle of Dublin ; he had spent four years of his mili-
tary life within its walls. The House was told that the
Castle should be abolished because it was a jobbing es-
tablishment ; but the Government of this country had
already taken good care that there should be no more
jobbing there, for they had removed the Boards of Cus-
toms and Excise, and the head administration of
the Post-office to London, so that even a letter. carrier
could not get appointed except through St. Martin's-le-
Grand, nor a distiller recover a wrongfully-seized pun-
cheon of spirits except through the board in Broad-
street. It was asked—Why wish a Lord-Lieutenant?
Is not Ireland an integral portion of the British empire?
It was; but that was all it was. And if it was not bet-
ter treated than it had been, and than it was now pro-
posed to be treated, far better would it be that it were
an integral portion of th• Russian empire. Ireland was
deprived of her Parliament in 1800, and consigned to
poverty as well as loaded with debt. The national
debt of that country at the union was not more than
thirty millions, which would have since bee❑ paid off if
Ireland was left to her own resources. In 1826, how-
ever, the two Exchequers wets amalgamated, and the in-
cumbrances of England divided with Ireland; and Ire•
land was saddled with 130 millions of the public debt.
That was what this country paid for being an integral
portion of the British empire.—(Hear, hear.) If Ire-
land had not been dragged into a war, with which
England alone had no concern, she would have been now
free from debt, and her people would not be taunted
with being beggars at the doors of the British Parlia-
ment. In 1826, also, the currency of the two countries
was assimilated, and Ireland by that single Act robbed
of one-twelfth of her circulating medium, amounting
in round numbers to a million of money.
That also was what she paid for being an integral
portion of the British empire. The next year the pro-
tecting duties between the countries were repealed. The
ten per cent. protection on the linen trade was with-
drawn, and that branch of occupation was swamped at
once by English calicoes. The woollen manufacture
followed. But still Ireland had the consolation of being
an integral portion of the British empire! The Noble
Lord said it was inconvenient to have the Executive of
Ireland so distant as Dublin from the seat of Govern-
ment, but surely the Irish Secretary would have to hold
oral communication with other persons on the subject of
Irish affairs, and, after all, did it not amount to the same
thing in reality? He (Mr. Reynolds)doubted very much
whether there were better men of business in Londo❑
than in Dublin ; at all events, he knew that they never
meddled with Irish affairs that they did not mismanage
them. He could prefer a bill of indictment against the
Government in England, with as many counts as
would make it reach from that House to Westminster
Abbey, if he had time , but he would mention one item—
that of savings banks. What bal been done in respect
of these institutions in Ireland? They had passed an Act
establishing savings banks all over the United Kingdom,
and then they passed another law relieving the trustees
from all personal liability.—(Question.) It was the
question. They insisted on managing their affairs in
Downing-street. They insisted on having the custody
of the money, and what had they done as to manage-
ment? Government were informed in 1821 that one
bank was insolvent, and instead of telling the depositors
of the feet, they kept the bank going on for 20 years,
and entailed a loss of 60,000/. on the depositors. This
was a specimen of British management of Irish affairs.
—(Olean) He was told that if the office of Lord-Lieu-
tenant were abolished everything, would go on smart
smooth in London. He believed it would only be trans-
ferring the scene of jobbing from Dublin to Downing-
street. Mr. Stephenson was the great benefactor of
Ireland. He had invented a tube—suppose that tube
broke one fine morning, why all he should say was,
may the Lord have mercy ou a country that depended
for its security on a metal tube.—(ol3.) It was a sub-
ject too serious for him to joke upon—(Laughter)—and
yet it had been made a joke of that night. The Hon.
Member for Montrose had cracked sundry jokes on the
subject, and had caused much merriment in the House,
and from that he inferred the House really treated the
measure as a joke. If the measure was carried, he be-
lieved his Hon. Colleague would have to resign his seat,
for he was going against the opinions of those who sent
him into that House, or turn Repealer. He had been
asked, why have a chief governor for Ireland when
Scotland had no governor? The cases were not paral-
lel. In the case of Scotland, it was taking a small popu-
lation and a very poor country into partnership with a
rich country. But in the case of Ireland you took a
country with a large population and filled with all the
elements of wealth. It was said the inhabitants of Dub-
lin were idle, but he believed the Dublin inhabitants
would bear a comparison with the citizens of Cork. It
they abolished the office of Lord-Lieutenant he would
make them a present of the Privy Council. But the
Noble Lord said the poor laws should be maintained.
With respect to the visits of her Majesty, he hosed they
would be frequent; but would the Noble Lord put that
in the Bill 2 He paused for an answer.—(Laughter.)
He might be told that it would be trammelling her Ma-
jesty, as it might not always be convenient to go. But
then, he said, let her Majesty send her excuse, and it
would bo received kindly. He believed the Noble
Lord meant well to Ireland, but he was badly advised.

—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord was inflicting this
wound on the country at a period of unparalleled dis-
tress. There bad been a period of famine, and half the
population had been lost by forced emigration. While
the best and hardiest of her sons were sent to the swamps
of America, only the helpless and the feeble were left to
till the Irish soil. Where was the difference between
this state of things and that which existed in the time of
Lord Mountjoy ? Then, again, Scotland had her own
religion, and he,rejoiced at it. But in Ireland they had
forced a religion down the throats of the Irish people.
They had reversed the system with respect to Ireland,
and then they were told they had no reason to be dis-
contented. Nothinc, would do until they had abolished the
temporalities of the Church.—(Hear, and cheers.) He-
had given notice to Irish Members to this effect :—lf the
people of Ireland had a voice in the election of Members,
Irish Members would not vote in favour of the question. If
the people were polled nine- tenths of the population, male
and female, would be found to vote against it. Those
Honourable Members who supported the Bill were loudly
cheered; he was not cheered—he was glad of it. He
hoped the House would hear him in solemn and sepul-
chral silence.—(Laughter.) If he were a Republican,
he would go down on his knees and say a pater and ave
for the Noble Lord for bringing in this Bill.—
(Laughter.) They might as well call a collision be-
tween a wheelbarrow and an omnibus an earthquake as
to call the affair at Ballingarry a rebellion.—(Laughter.)
Thanking the House for the patience with which they
had heard him, if he bad any influence with the Noble
Lord he would implore him to withdraw the Bill for the
present, and to give the Irish people time to recover
from their prostration. It was not the time to attack
them when they were weak. He believed the Noble
Lord would regret to the latest moment of his life that
in this case be had listened to the advice of the Hon.
Member for Montrose. Instead of abolishing the office
of Lord-Lieutenant, he thought it would be more ad-
visable to bestow larger powers on him, to strengthen
his hands, so that he might exercise his position and
powers for the benefit of the Irish people.—(Hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI said the motion before the House
was for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the aboli-
tion of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and the
appointment of a fourth Secretary of State. He had
been surprised that during the interesting and prolonged
discussion that had taken place no observations had
been made upon the second object of the Bill. It was
unnecessary for him to refer ut any length to the first
object of the proposed measure, because the subject had
received a great deal of attention from Honourable
Members connected with the sister kingdom, who were
a ell qualified to give an opinion upon it. He would
have been prepared, so far as his vote was concerned, to
have deferred to the feelings of the Irish Members with
respect to the office of Lurd-Lieutenant—(Hear)—but
he regretted to say that upon this, as on every occasion,
nothing was more difficult to ascertain than what was
the feeling of the Irish Members. It he had been an Irish
Member himself, ho confessed that he would not have he-
sitated as to the line of conduct he should take. Ile.
thought that, as a measure merely of high policy, it
would at all times have been very doubtful whether
the course now proposed by the Government with re-
gard to this office should bo adopted; but he consi-
dered that at the present moment it was unnecessarily
unhappy.—(Hear.) [le could not pretend to say
that he had given any deep consideration to this ques-
tion; but he had an idea from what he had heard that
there were great political and economical reasons for the
abolition of the office, and until he heard the speech of
the drat 1914 of the Wr ow), ho had ouppond that to

be the case.—(Hear, hear.). That impression, however,
had been removed by the Noble Lord's address. It ap-
peared to him that no one could more successfully have
demolished the proposition presented to the House than
the Noble Lord had himself done.—(A laugh.) The
Noble Lord said that great political considerations influ-
enced him in proposing to abolish the Lord-Lieutenancy
of Ireland. " Ireland," said the Noble Lord, "is ex-
tremely tranquil, particularly well governed by an indi-
vidual who fills the office of Lord-Lieutenant, and who
is universally acknowledged to be one of the most skil-
ful governors who have occupied that post; and there-
fore I mean to remove the individual and to abolish the
office."—(Laughter.) That was the great political rea-
son assigned by the Noble Lord, who then proceeded to
give some moral reasons for the course he proposed to
take. The Noble Lord said that the expenditure of pri-
vate families in Ireland was much more considerable than
was desirable in a moral sense; that they spent a great
deal of money in going to Dublin to pay their court;
and he therefore proposed that in future they should not
go to Dublin to pay their court, but that they should
come to London.—( A laugh.) That was the moral and
economical reason. The Noble Lord gave a third reason,
which was neither a political nor moral reason, but a
loyal reason. The Noble Lord said that nothing could
be more gratifying to her Majesty than her visit
to Ireland last year, and that nothing
.could
be more remarkable than the loyalty of her .Majesty s
subjects in that country, and therefore the Noble Lord
said, "I will put an end to all the circumstances and
causes of this satisfactory conclusion, and because her
Majesty was gratified and the people were loyal, I will
take care that when the Queen visits Ireland again she
shall not visit it under the same circumstances."—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord had been most ably supported
by several Hon. Gentleman who had followed him. The
lion. Member for Cork had called attention to the Lord
Deputies of the time of the Plantagenets, and had formed
an argument from their conduct against the possible
conduct of Lords-Lieutenant in the present day. The
Hon. Gentleman said that the Lurd Deputies were
strangers to Ireland, that they were of a different race
from the people, and that there was no sympathy be-
tween them and the great mass of the population. But
the Plantagenet Kings of England were of a different
race from the people, and possibly there could be no
great community of feeling between them and the na-
tion ; yet every one knew that the reigns of the Plan-
tagenet Kings, although they were foreigners, were ex-
tremely conducive to the glory and prosperity of this
realm.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for Cork also
complained of the practical inutility of the present sys-
tem, contending that so long as a Lord-Lieutenant was
maintained in Ireland no spirit of self-reliance would be
excited among the Irish people, because in any difficulty
they could communicate with the Lord-Lieutenant and
obtain his advice. But if, as had been suggested, the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland was invested with some of
the duties of the Lord-Lieutenant, might not the people
communicate with him by every post ; and how, then,
would the spirit of self-reliance be developed more suc-
cessfully by a Lord Chancellor than by a Lord-Lieute-
nant? The Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne),
in a very able speech, bad supported the motion be-
fore the House on the assumption that the
Government of Ireland, under the viceregal sys-
tem, had been a government of corruption and mis-
rule. He (Mr. Disraeli) could, however, refer to
periods in the history of this country at which he
could make out as good a case against the Parliament
and the Government as the Hon. Gentleman could
establish against the authorities of Dublin Castle. He
(Mr. Disraeli) might refer to old stories about back-
stairs influence—(A laugh)—which, for so long a period,
i and n so unconstitutional a manner, influenced the
Administration, even in comparatively recent periods;
but would this bear legitimately and fairly upon the
question before them? They knew that the institutions
of a country took their character from the spirit of the
age in which they flourished, and, no doubt, the Castle
of Dublin had been the seat of as much corruption as
the spirit of the country would bear.—(A laugh.) The
public spirit of Ireland, however, had greatly improved
since that time; and, as they could not now have the
illegitimate influences he had referred to acting upon
the Government of England, so they might possibly
have a Lord-Lieutenant governing Ireland with as much
purity and as little corruption as any one could desire.
If statements published in newspapers against the con-
duct of a court were to be received as evidence of its
character, he might remind the House that even our own
Court—the purest in the world—had not been free from
libels ; and, before the accession of our present
Sovereign, how disgraceful had been the libels upon
Majesty itself, which yet did not for a moment shake the
loyalty of the people. He (Mr. Disraeli) would not vote
against the motion for leave to introduce this Bill, be-
cause he thought it would be an act of discourtesy to
any Minister; but he wished, before he sat down, to say
a few words upon the second object of the measure.
That object was of extreme importance. It might or
might not be necessary anti politic to abolish the office
of Lord-Lieutenant, but it was perfectly consistent to
accede to the abolition of that office, and yet not to ac-
cede to the proposition for appointing a fourth Secretary,
of State. He hoped the House would see how im-
portant it was, in discussing this question, to separate
these two points. It was only within a recent period,
comparatively speaking, that a third Secretary of State
had been appointed in this country, and that secretary
had had a province allotted to him the duties of
which, by the legislation now passing through that
House, and by the principles of government that
appeared to be very popular in the House, would pro-
bably be very materially diminished—he alluded to the
Colonial Secretary. Night after night they were told
the colonies ought to govern themselves; and the result
of such a policy would be that the duties of the Colonial
Secretary must be proportionately decreased. The third
Secretary of State was a comparative novelty in our ad-
ministrative system, and yet Parliament was now crudely
and suddenly called upon to appoint' a fourth Secretary
of State. This would give rise to an immense increase
of patronage. Sir William Wyndham said of Secretaries
of State, " These great officers never appear except with
an equipage of clerks."—(Hear.) When the appoint-
ment of a third Secretary of State was proposed consi-
derable objection was made to the measure, which, it
was argued by the advocates of the proposal, would not
add materially, if at all, to the expenditure of the coun-
try. What had been the result? The annual expense
in the office of the third Secretary of State now amounted
to nearly 50,000/. per annum; and they were asked
to consent to the appointment of a fourth Secretary,
without any member of the Cabinet appearing to have
a clear conception of what his ditties were to be.—
(Cries of " Hoar, hear.") The Noble Lord had given
them no very clear information upon that point. All he
had told them was, that the Lord-Lieutenant had to fulfil
a great many duties which the new Secretary of State
would not be required to discharge.—(‘' Hear," and a
laugh.) He (Mr. Disraeli) could not agree to the ap-
pointment of a fourth Secretary, with his equipage of
clerks, unless they had much more precise and satisfac-
tory information on the subject from the Government.
For his own part, he did not see why Ireland should not
be placed under the control of the Secretary of State for
the Home Department. Scotland was under the Home
Secretary; so was Wales. As there was so much anxiety
that there should be a similarity between the two coun-
tries, why should not Ireland also be placed under the
Home Secretary?—(Hear, hear.) It might be necessary
for the administration of the office that he should have
greater subordinate assistance; let him have it; hut let us
hesitate and inquire before agreeing to the appointment
of a fourth Secretary of State and a great increase
of patronage, when it was very doubtful whether
there was sufficient work for the existing three—when
we were taking the administration of the colonies out of
the hands of the Colonial Secretary.—(Hear, hear.) The
ever-to-be-lamented Lord G. Bentinck, who was always
very jealous of the increase of patronage, and who
thought that a Whig Administration had a peculiar
talent for multiplying offices—(Hear, hear)—once said
—and the statement was never contradicted, and the ac-
curacy of his statements could seldom be impugned—
(Hear, hear)—that the Irish famine was in one sense a
godsend, for it had given the Whig Government 16,500
places.—(Hear. hear.) The House had now proposed to
it what might not be very objectionable—he (Mr.
Disraeli) would give no decided opinion that night—but
it was at least a somewhat fantastical reform. No one
doubted that Ireland might be as well governed as it
had been—much better, in his opinion—without this
operation—(Hear)—yet, under this shadow and colour,
there was to be appointed another officer of State of the
highest class and the greatest salary, whose appoint-
ment must lead to an equipage of clerks, whose malted
salaries would probably in the first year quintuple that
of their chief.—(Hear.) But he knew it was in vain in
that House to expect to make any successful appeal. In
a House of financial reformers economy was a subject
that was never considered.—(" Hear," from the Opposi-
tion.) In good days—in the days of that good man
whose words he had quoted, Sir W. Wyndham or Mr.
Pulteney, if a Minister had brought forward a Bill like
this, a place Bill might have been brought forward in
answer, and perhaps carried. In old days, if the Go-
vernment was increasing places, and in a manner scarcely
to excite public attention proposing to constitute an
office which, if it followed the precedent of the last Se-
cretaryship of State, would entail upon the country
probably an increased expenditure of not less than
100,000/. a year, those who called attention to the fact
might have had some chance of sympathy out of doors,
and success within; but in a liberal age it was impossi-
ble.—(Hear, hear.) In the present day, if one were to
establish a case, however urgent, and her Majesty's
Ministers were to appeal to those gentlemen who always
opposed them, except when they were in danger, there
would not be the slightest chance of carrying a motion.
—(Hear, hear.) Why, the House had just listened to
their earnest supporter, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, who
came there in his paraphernalia—(Laughter)—to add
weight and importance to the great authority he lent to
the Government; and ho said, that if he had time he
really would impeach the Government; that they ought
to be called over the coals on the savings banks question;
but the Lord Mayor of Dublin, if their existence was at
stake, would immediately vote for them.—(Hear.) But
what was the real state of the country? Her Majesty's
Ministers themselves, who took a favourable view of it,
said that the country was not ruined, but only the middle
classes. Was not that enough to make Parliament pause
before appointing a most expensive, and, as far as any
data had been placed before it, unnecessary officer, with
a very great and necessarily increasing establishment?
On that (the Opposition) side of the House, they knew
that, as far as their constituents were concerned, they
le
were not justified in acceding to any proposition the ob-
ject of which was to increase public expenditure.—
(Hear, hear.) That great portion, .the greatest portion
of the ruined middle class, which they represented,
could not look upon the institution of a new office like
this without very considerable alarm.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") Ministers might say that there would not be
any great increase of expenditure, that an expensive
office was being abolished and the funds transferred to
the payment of the new officers; but, though the Noble
Lord had not opened the subject with remarkable frank-
, uess—feanktiess had AO 041 night been the fate of the