The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-07 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF SERVIA.

Lord BEAUMONT said that he wished to put a
question to the Noble Earl on the subject of the
affairs of Servia. It would be in the recollec-
tion of their Lordships that a debate had
taken place on This subject at the commencement
of the session. Since then a conspiracy had been formed
against Prince Alexander Georgeowitz, which had been
discovered, and the 'conspirators had been condemned.
Prince Alexander had then been given to understand
that he would be complying with the wishes of a northern
Power if he were to pardon these conspirators, and in-
flict on them only a slight imprisonment instead of the
punishment of death—it was intimated to Prince Alex-
ander that if he pardoned those conspirators there
would be no objection to the return of the two Ministers
who had been sent into exile at the desire of Russia,
but who were in high favour with the Porte. On
that understanding the pardon was granted, but
the promise of Russia had not been kept, and
the Ministers were still in exile. Ho wished to ask
the Noble Earl if it was in his power to communicate
any information to the House on the subject,. and if he
had, as a friend to the Porte, exercised his influence to
induee a certain northern Power to consent to the resto-
ration of the two Ministers.
The Earl of ABERDEEN, in answer to the question
of the Noble Lord, wished to state that he had no know-
ledge whatever of any such engagement as that referred
to by the Noble Lord, nor had he any
_reason to know
or to believe that any such promise hadbeen made as
the Noble Lord had mentioned. But though
he had no knowledge or belief of any such
engagement, it might be satisfactory to the
Noble Lord to learn, that, from recent communications
received from her Majesty's Minister at the Court of St.
Peterburgh, the Imperial Government had no objection
whatever to the return of these two Ministers.
Lord BEAUMONT was perfectly satisfied with the
answer of the Noble Earl. He must have been misled
by his information.
COURT-MARTIAL ON LIEUTENANT GRAY.
The Earl of MINTO asked whether the court-martial
oNbvrehei :Inc he
tihnead
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by
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ne
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recently
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rd n
directions
e soen tat Lieutenant
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tfhroefrom
Admiralty Gray r
foreign
yh ad,
Power.

Lord HADDINGTON said the court-martial was
held in consequence of communications made in certain
correspondence to the Foreign-office.
The Earl of ABERDEEN wished to add to the an-
swer given by his Noble Friend, that although the court-
martial had taken place in consequence of the represen-
tations of a foreign Government, yet no foreign Govern-
ment had ever suggested any such proceedings. The
French Government complained of the violation of the
treaty and of the right of search. A French ship having
been searched without warrants, and on that being reported
in the proper department the Admiralty had thought
proper to institute the proceedings that had taken place.

The Earl of MINTO was satisfied with the answer of
the Noble Earl as far as it went. lie had no doubt
that if a grave complaint was made by a foreign Power,
the Admiralty would be justified in inquiring into it by
court-martial, but he himself did not see any such ir-
regularity in the conduct of this officer as to call for
such an inquiry.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—AII irregularities
are always tried by court-martial.
The Earl of MINTO said there was one other ques-
tion which he wished to put, whether the-senior captain
at Ur) port of Plymouth (Captain Burgoyne) was a mem-
ber of that court-martial?

The Earl of HADDINGTON said he had not read
the minutes of the court-martial. If the Noble Earl
wished to have an answer on those points, he should
have given notice of this question. On the face of the
papers referred to, the Admiralty thought there was a
case that ought to be inquired into.
CONFERENCE.

A conference with the Commons on the County
Courts Bill was appointed for Thursday next.
REVIEW OF THE SESSION.

The Marquis of NORMANBY rose to call their at-
lion to the subject of which he had given notice. Per-
haps the words " To call their attention" were erro-
neous, for even from what had passed that evening and
lost night there was not one of their Lordships, who en-
tertained a conscientious feeling with regard to the dis-
charge of his duty who must not be ashamed of the man-
lier in which, for some reason or other, during the last
few days the legislative machinery of that'' House
had been brought into play. He was present
last night and attended in the House till one o'clock
this morning, and certainly the manner in which Bills
were passed through the stage at which it was generally
supposed that they would meet with some consideration,
would hardly be imagined by those who had not seen it.
Bills of every kind and description —he counted, he be-
lieved, ten of them passed through in the manner
he had mentioned. The Noble Lord who officiated as
their Chairman, did certainly give them the necessary
information that there was a title and a preamble to
each Bill; he had been absent from the House for some
during the past week, and he was not aware but these
Bills had had their subject-matter in some degree dis-
cussed on former occasions. But on inquiring of some
of his Noble Friends he found that none of these
Bills had been explained to the House. Now he
recollected that when a Noble Friend of his
(Lord Besborough) formerly conducted the business
of the house, he used to insist on the subject-matter
being opened to the discussion of their Lordships on
the second reading. He did not complain of the manner
in which the Noble Chairman passed through these Bills.
On the contrary, if he found discussion to be impossible,
he rather honoured him for not going through any
humbug on the subject. This rapidity might be neces-
sary; he admitted that the business of the country was
pressing very hard on both branches of the Legislature
during the time in which they were assembled. But, in
general, there had been some reason for this, Let them
look at the Bills which had been recently pressed upon their
consideration. There had been two Bills to which their
attention had been directed during the last week—the
Poor-law Bill and the Metropolis Buildings Bill. Now
the Poor-law Bill had been introduced to their Lord-
ships' notice at eleven o'clock at night on the sth of
August, and yet they were told that it was a measure of the
utmost consequence, that it had created great excitement
throughout the country, and that great prejudices were
entertained out of doors on the subject. Now was not
that a reason why the subject should have been sub-
mitted to their Lordships' attention at an earlier period
in order that their Lordships might have an opportunity
by argument of dispelling those prejudices. Let them
look at one of the consequences of this delay. Not one
of the Noble Lords who had taken part in the debate of
last night was present in the House that evening at the
adjourned debate.—(Hear.) A Noble Friend of his had
said that their Lordships' House was of all others the
place best fitted for the discussion of the poor-law ques-
tion, because there were eighty chairmen of boards of
guardians Members of their Lordships' House. Now he
should like to ask how many of these Noble Lords were
present last night ? They might have acted very im-
properly in absenting themselves, but still it was the
duty of the Government to bring forward important
measures of this nature at a time when they could secure
a full attendance of Members in their Lordships' House.
Then, with regard to the Metropolis Buildings Bill—as
far ago aslthe 11th of June he had called the Noble
Lord's attention to the fact that that Bill had been be-
fore the Commons three months, and that no progress
had been made in it, and had expressed a wish that it
should be before their Lordships for a sufficient time to
enable them to give the measure due consideration.
Now, the other night when he had directed their Lord-
ships' attention to the sanatory condition of the metro-
polis, the Noble Duke opposite had laid great stress on
the report of the Sanatory Commissioners. Would it be
believed that the main enactments of this Bill were in
direct opposition to that report? The great object of
the Bill was to erect party walls. But the evidence
taken before the Commission showed that that was
the least important and the most expensive alteration
that could have been made. It would add 16s. a year
to the rent of small houses. Whereas the cost of
supplying them with water and drainage would have
been only ss. He should like to know if this Bill had
ever been referred to those Commisioners, and if it
had been, what was their reason for discrediting
the evidence which had been taken before
them? What had their Lordships been doing
for the five-and-a-half months before. They had passed
two measures as regarded England, and one as regarded
Ireland. One of them was the Dissenters' Chapels Bill,
for the introduction of which he returned the Noble and
Learned Lord his best thanks. He did not give him
equal credit for the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill. It had
not been introduced as being the best possible measure,
but they were told that it had one merit—they could cal-
culate on its success. Where was that Bill now ?
(Heer, hear.) Where was that success the Noble Lord
had prophesied ?—(Hear, hear.) And these were the
only two attempts, with one exception, which had been
made to fill up the inane vacuity in which they had
passed five months and a-half. When the session opened
it was the general opinion that the speech promised little,
but it was considered that what little was promised would
be performed. Of all the measures mentioned in the
speech one only had passed, that respecting the Bank
Charter. Persons who were well informed on the sub-
ject considered that a hazardous experiment, and many
of those who had voted for it were but little aware of
what its effects might be. The only measure regarding
Ireland which had passed that House was the Charitable
Bequests Bill, a measure that reflected great credit upon
the Government. But that had not originated in any
comprehensive scheme. It had originated in a petition
which he had presented from a worthy Protestant cler-
gyman, who had exposed himself to great obloquy be-
cause he had come before their Lordships to advocate
the claims of his poor Catholic parishioners to a charity
of 7/. 10s. asyear.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Oh, no ; that measure had
been long intended.
The Marquis of NORMANBY was glad to hear it,
but, at all events the Government had given no an-
nouncement of their intention. '('heir attention had been
directed, in the speech from the throne, to the early
consideration of a measure for the registration of voters
in Ireland. It was natural that the present Government
should direct their attention to such a measure, for, four
years since, the Members composing that Government
had forced the attention of Parliament to the considera-
tion of the subject during the administration of his No-
ble Friend. They said that no delay ought to take place
in the passing of the measure. But what had been the
result ?—a Bill had been introduced and withdrawn, and
most properly withdrawn, as it was not calculated to
give satisfaction. That Bill exhibited a degree of igno-
rance as to the wants and wishes of the people of Ire-
land, which was most reprehensible in any Government.
He had before alluded to the Landlord and Tenant
Commission, and nothing had occurred to induce him to
alter his opinion since he had expressed his regret that
that Commission had been appointed. It was calculated
to excite delusive expectations and. hopes that could
never be realised. The Government was in possession
of ample information for the purposes of legislation by
the Census Commissioners. Those Commissioners had
divided the habitations of the people into four classes.
The lowest class consisted of mud cabins, with only one
room ; the next of mud cabins with two rooms ; the
third of the smallest description of stone houses, which
might be called barn-houses ; and all above were ranked
in the first class. There were only 11 per cent. of the po-
pulation living in first class houses ; 13 per cent. lived in
second class houses ; 40 per cent in third class houses ;
and 43 per cent. in houses of the worst class ; so that
out of the whole population of Ireland, 83 out of every
100 lived in mud cabins. Then, with regard to the
farms, 40 per cent. consisted of farms of from one to five
acres, and only seven per cent. of the farms exceeded
30 acres. Two-thirds of the inhabitants got their living
as unskilled labourers, and 90 per cent. of the population
could not read or write. Surely these were data suffi-
cient on which to ground legislation. The whole of the
legislation—all the important measures, had been
brought into their Lordships' House within the last
month. It was said the delay was owing to the House
of Commons ; but, if so, it in a great measure
arose from the " counting out of that House ;
and this took place generally from there being some
motion on the notice paper unpalatable to the Govern-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) The House of Lords had lately
been converted into a mere mechanical piece of legisla-
tion. A great number of Bills were passed last night
without any explanation. He hoped that these evils
would not occur in future, and that the House of Lords
would not be treated in the manner they had been during
the present session. The Noble Lord concluded by
moving for a return.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he thought the
complaint of the Noble Lord with regard to the inat-
tention of that House and of the Government regarding
public business was not well-founded. If any Noble
Lord felt any doubt as to any measure proposed by the
Government, some member of the Government was
always prepared to give an explanation. He had
always taken care to furnish such information regard-
ing papers as was desirable. On the previous night, he
I had not remained in the House later than 11 o clock,
but his Noble Friend (Lord Wharncliffe) had under-
taken the management of it, and he felt sure it had not
suffered in his hands. It was not fair to blame the Go-
vernment for bringing forward important measures at a
late hour, when Noble Lords opposite occupied the
earlier hours with discussions introduced by themselves.
A considerable portion of the session, in ',,both Houses,
had been occupied in discussing measures of a very im-
portant nature, but the Government was not in any way
the cause of the delay, or of " the countings out or
of the misapplication of public time, if the Noble
Lord would choose to term it such. The arrangements
of business were what they had been for 150 years. One
Bill had originated in this House which the Noble Lord
said was not a Government Bill, but this was a mistake.
The Government had given notice of their intention to
I bring forward a measure on this subject at an early
period of the present session. With respect to the other

reessures, it was true that the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill,
and other measures, had met with disappointment in the
pother House of Parliament, but for this the Government
would by no means be held answerable. He wished to
defend his Noble Friend and himself from any charge of
neglect, and to assure their Lordships that he was every
way willing at all times to give all the information it was
in his power to offer or afford.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE complimented the
Noble Duke on his constant attendance and incessant
assiduity in that House. He thought, however, the
complaint of his Noble Friend was perfectly well
founded, and agreed with him in thinking that that
House had been by the present Government converted
into a mere court of registration. The amount of busi-
siness passed through this House, or, rather, hurried
through it, was enormous. It was impossible to suppose
that laws could be perfect, when they were hurried
through the Legislature without discussion—they were
forced through it, and ripened into sudden maturity, like
fruit in the dog days. In the early part of the session,
there was a perfect vacuum in the business of that House.
He had come from the country on the previous day to
oppose a clause in the Railways Bill, which he thought
would be injurious and insulting to the lower classes,
and the clause was at length proposed and carried in a
most incomprehensible form, from its having been so
hastily drawn up; and the request of twenty-four hours'
delay, that the clause might be printed and circulated,
so that it might be properly understood, was refused,
because of the late period of the session.
Those crude laws so hastily passed would, instead
of being useful, disfigure the statute-book. The mode
in which the House proceeded in this business reminded
him of the story of an eminent individual, whose name
probably might be known to their Lordships. He was
very wealthy, and made a great number of legacies, and
when it was asked how he spent his evenings before he
went to bed, it was answered by calling for his will and
making legacies. It was asked how he spent his time in
the morning, and it was answered, calling for his will
and altering the legacies he had made on the previous
evening.—(Laughter.) The latter part of the session
was employed in making imperfect laws, and the early
portion of the following session in amending them.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) For his (the Marquis of
Lansdowne's) part, he was often glad to see the stran-
ger's gallery so thinly attended at the latter part of the
session, that it might be less generally known with what
speed the machinery of law-making was propelled in that
House. He would not further detain their Lordships.
The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE defended the Govern-
ment from the charge of neglect or procrastination. It
was said by the Noble Lord opposite that he had never
seen a royal speech promise so little as the last. He
(the Earl of Wharncliffe) thought that that was rather a
merit than a defect. Most of the suggestions in it had
been acted upon, and brought to a successful conclusion
—the Bank of England Charter, for instance. The
Registration of Voters in Ireland Bill, it was true, had
been deferred, but that was a measure which required
the utmost deliberation, and they had accordingly post-
poned it. Those were the only subjects mentioned in
the Queen's speech. But had they done nothing else?
Had they passed no other measures which met with
with general approbation? Had they n©t passed the
measure of the Three-and. a-Half per Cents., one of the
most important financial matters which had ever
been brought under the consideration of Par-
liament? They had also brought in, and succeeded
in carrying, an amendment on the Factories Bill;
they were also about to pass the Poor•law Amendment
Bill, and it could not be said that this had not been a most
fruitful session. It was true they had not been able to
carry the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, but its own impor-
tance, and the still greater importance of other measures,
prevented a full discussion of it during the present ses-
sion, but the Government had not by any means lost
sight of.it. He asserted that the Charitable Bequests
Bill relating to Ireland, had originated with the present
Government, and not with Noble Lords opposite. The
Government had not done as much as they might wish to
have done ; but they had done as much as was performed
in the average of sessions. He wished the Bills were
sent up to this House a little earlier, and he also desired
that they might receive as full a description as possible.
It was asked why more measures did not originate in
t his House, but ho did not think such Bills were re-
ceived in the same favourable spirit as in the Lower House
when they originated there. He would not oppose the
production of the papers for which the Noble had
moved.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE did not think the
explanation of the Noble Lord at all satisfactory. The
Noble Lord boasted a good deal of the Three-and-a-Half
per Cents., but he did not think there was any thing
very novel or statesmanlike in the idea : he believed it
was a good measure, but it was generally anticipated. He
approved of the financial policy of the Government gene-
rally, but he altogether disapproved of the manner in
which they had treated that House, which was now the
chief subject of discussion. The Irish Registration Bill
might not be very pressing ; he felt confident it was
better the present law should be allowed to continue than
that the Government measure should pass into a law. It
was a farce to say the present constituency of Ireland
was popular—it was narrow, cramped, and restricted.
The Charitable Bequests Bill contained much that was
good and useful, but, at the same time, it was a great
mistake to say that the measure had originated with the
present Government; it had been devised by their pre-
decessors. The hurly burly way which measures had
been passed through that House was in a great measure
attributable to the Government. Many Bills had gone
through the House without a single word being said upon
them. The Grand Jury (Dublin) Presentment Bill, he
would venture to say, was not understood by any of
their Lordships, and no one had said a word upon it but
himself. He thought the motion of his Noble Friend
well timed ; and he trusted that he would bring it for-
ward next session. For his own part, he thought the
course that had been pursued was not calculated to in-
crease the esteem of the people for Parliament.
The Earl of WICKLOW was net at all surprised at
the course that had been pursued by the Noble Marquis,
as these species of discussions had now taken place for
several years at this period of the session. He thought
many of the complaints that had been made against the
Government with respect to the introduction of Bills
was totally uncalled for. As to the censure that had
been cast upon the Government for the counting out of
the House of Commons, he thought it lay with Members
on the other side, and not with the Government.
The Marquis of NORMANBY, in reply, stated that
the manner in which the business of the House had been
conducted latterly was greatly detrimental to the coun-
try. Bills had been hurried through the House in a
most unseemly way. In conclusion, he wished to know
whether the Metropolitan Buildings Bill had been sub-
mitted to the Commissioners alluded to by his Noble
Friend. He thought some course ought to be adopted to
put an end to the legerdemain legislation that had lately
taken place. lie thought if the House met at four
o'clock instead of five o'clock that might be prevented.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said that the Metropoli-
tan Buildings Bill had not been specifically referred to
the Commissioners alluded to.
The ',notion was then agreed to.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
lord WHARNCLIFFE moved that the House should
resolve itself into a Committee on the Poor-law Amend-
ment Bill.
The Bishop of EXETER objected to the motion. He
thought it would be useless to attempt to go on with the
measure at the present late period of the session ; they
lad, in fact, only that night to discuss it, although the
House of Commons had taken seven or eight days to
do so. There was no pressure for the measure during
the present session, and he should therefore move that it
be committed that day six months. It became that
House to give the subject its greatest attention, and was
it to be said that it could be properly discussed in a
House consisting of not one twentieth of its Members ?
The present law was an experimental law, and the ex-
periment had answered most marvellously ; that it had
been the cause of the incendiarism that had taken place
be thought there was very little doubt. These reasons
alone appeared to him to press their Lordships to con-
sider well what provisions should be made with respect
to the poor, and to take care that no rash provisions
should be adopted. No provision in the present Bill had
any relation to the spiritual education of the poor,
and he thought such an omission showed that the sub •
ject had not been well and duly considered. He thought
the Secretary of State was responsible for this, not only
to his country, but to his God. Their Lordships could
not pass a measure of this kind hastily, if they wished
to have the sanction of their country. He felt indignant
that men, placed in the situation of Ministers of the
Crown, should dare so to trifle with their duty as to en-
deavoul to thrust forward a measure like the present.
If their Lordships passed this miserable expedient, they
might depend upon it that they would set at nought the
beat interests of the people. The law of Elizabeth said
that the poor had a right to subsistence and to be pro-
tected from want ; but if the present measure passed,
that right would be taken away. The Poor-law Bill of
1834 was the product of the Malthusian theory. He
(the Bishop of Exeter) had the greatest respect
for Mr. Malthus, but he objected to his principles.
The biographer of Mr. Malthus said—Mr. Malthus'
philosophy and the poor-law must stand or fall together.
Mr. Justice Blackstone said the poor were entitled by
the canon law to relief from the parsons and parishioners
of every parish. The statute of Elizabeth required that
there should be work found for the poor in their own
parish. It positively enjoined the building
lic
wereoaf newnot
tages for them, if their previous dwellingsp
suf-
ficient. Liberty—the liberty of the t
Legis-
lature he
large—
was recognised in that statute the Magna Chat;
ventured to call it, of the poor. If the Britisha
had recognised this right in 1834, it would havedealt with the poor as freemen, instead of shutting them
up in gaols. Gaol was a strong word, but he would cite
an authority to prove that it was not too strong. (The
Right Rev. Prelate then read a letter of the Poor-
law Commissioners, characteristic of the poor-house
system, as a system of poor-law restraint). This was all
which was necessary to establish the justice of the
appellation. He then referred to the state of the
pauper schools, and the ignorance of the school-
masters. Mr. Tufnell had stated that the character
of the bulk of the adult population, and the
example they set were of the worst description.
Was it to be endured that honest persons of good
, 2character should be compelled to associate with persons
P-Sc SI) :1111%1Nrho would contaminate them, and that their wives and
1. _---1-11 'Wen should be exposed to the same evil? These
1 ' rf'.' • -‘ab iderations were so important, that he defied them to
p
- • -- -\ gd with the Bill in its present shape. As Christians,
----eisis
- , ---',---`thssr; could not, as legislators they would not. Under
Vitt d law, and under the Gilbert Acts, man and wife
not be separated. In case relief was required, the
41
, •-•.;:*i could not be removed to the place where she had
, --e-'-'---‘ , settlement, even though the husband had no settlement
-,---.1
14. cl)o rat all. Lord Brougham had denied that the Commis-
sioners ever orderefs. the separation of man and wife.
He had taken pains to bring that to the test. He
wished to bring the point to issue, by a trial in a
court of law ; but his counsel told him that his diffi-
culty was this : the orders of the Commissioners were
made of the :time illitherity tss au Act of rudiment.

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