The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-02 00:00:00

svas when the Right H. Genthman (Sir R. Peel),
whose illness they all deplored, mewl' the usual vote
for the British Museum. He hoped ;hat the Right Hon.
gentleman would he present bef ere the end of the ses-
sion to move the vote.--(llear.)
Sir D. MINIMS stated that arrat;gehinnts were
making to give inerea,sed aceom,nodation to the, public,
At the same time, more accomenod,ttion was given in
The reading-room of the British Museum than in any
other public library abroad.
Sir R. INGLIS stated that there was accommodation
now for 250 readers.
Mr. HENLEY remarked that there ought to be double
accommodation in the British Museum library, as Lon-
don was so much larger than any other metropolis.
Sir H. VERNEY complained of the runner in which
the catalogue was being brought out at the British Mu.

effect of it in Ireland would bo to exclude a most re-
spectable class of voters. To separate the valne of the
house from the value of the land would be to intro-
duce a rule which he did not think it would he
advisable to adopt. He did not carry his objection
so far as to say, if the Noble Earl should induce their
Loreislipl to adept the neuetelteent, that the 81.1 lose
qualification might not be added to the 121. occupancy.
The object which they ought to have in view should be
a real, effectual representation of opinion in 'related. If
they did not make up their minds to go to that extent
they had better not proceed with the Bill at all. Nay,
he believed it would be better in such a case to get rid of
representation altogether. An ineffectual representa-
tion—one that did not represent opinion, wag, in most
respects, more mischievous than no representation.
Universal suffrage he was far from approving, because
it represented every delusion, every feeling, every pas-
sion, and was not a real representation of the mind, but
of semr-thing that was not the mind of the electors. Bad
as he believed despotism, with its no representation, to
be, there was something. worse, and that was a nominal
instead of a real repre:,entation. All recent experience
had, he thought, shown the folly of a representation that
was nothing but nominal. Ile wished to see the fran-
chise extended in Ireland to the groat body of the corn-
munits•, and not c mfined to any body of gentlemen, or
any particular class of electors. He trusted, therefore,
if their Lordships in any way altered the Bill, that they
would not alter it to that extent which would deprive
the people of Ireland of a full and fair representative
system. Ho was inclined to think the proposed amend-
ment went toe far, and should like to see the measure
returned to the Commons in a shape in which they c)u'd
entertain it.
After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW, who
suggested to the Noble Lord to postpone his amend-
ment till the bringing up of the report, so as the discus-
sion on the other amendment might now ha taken,
Lord MONCEAGLE approved of no 81. house quali-
fication. He had had some experience of elections in
Ireland, and thought that a 121 qualiti,mation would be
better than one of Si,. He hoped that they would fix
that amount of qualifi Atioa which they thought right and
proper in itself, without any reference to coming to other
terns with the House of Commons on the subject.
The Duke of LEINSTER, was understood to say that
he cauld_not support the amendment for a 15/. qualifies-

Mr. 'HUME said that the catalogue now making
Would not be finished before the year 1895.
Mr. P. MAULE considered that there wai no man
to whom the public was more indebted than t 3 M. Pa-
; tizzi.

Sir R. INGLIS praised Mr. Panizzl for bringing out
catalogue on the best plan.
Sir D. DUNDAS said, that no man in England could
do the duties of his office better than Mr. Panizz. Ile
admitted it to be a very convenient thing to have a
finding catalogue—(Flear, hear)—yet if they wished to
have a catalogue for all time, it would not be unreason-
able if it took up to the year 1895 before it was com-
pleted.

Sir H. VERNEY wished to elicit the opinion of the
House as to the value of heving a finding catalogue.
Lot them, he said, have such a catalogue, at all events,
and have it in as short a time as possible.
Mr. EWART wishe i that the reading room of the
British Museum should be opened in the evening.
Mr. WYLD complained that they could not get a
book published within the last two years. There were
40,000 volumes in the library which were not catalogued.
Five clerks could catalogue 70 000 volumes in a year.
Sir D. DUNDAS said that fire was so fearful an ex-
periment in a place where there was such property, that
it was not one that could bo undertaken without serious
consideration. At the same time it was under consi-
deration.
Mr. EWART said it was his intention to move for a
return of applications for admission to the reading room
which were refaced. There was a system of exclusion
of which he complained.
Mr. STANFORD complained of the restrictions ex-
isting upon the admission of persons to the library of
the Museum. He himself had once applied as a Master
of Arts of Cambridge University and a member of
Lincon's lan for rs ticket of admission, and in reply was
refused the ticket, but referred to a list of persons with
which he was famished. This was one instance, and
doubtless there were hundreds of other similar ones.
Unless the reading-room were too small to contain the
applicants, such restrictions were impolitic, and un-
worthy the liberal character of the institution.—(Hear.)
The vote was agreed to, as were also the following
Totes;
3,0501. for the expense of procuring antiquities for
the Museam; 1,5001. for the National Gallery; 19.0001.
for the expense of the Geological Survey of Great
Britain and Ireland; 1296!. for expenses of magnetic
observations at Toronto, Cape of Good Hope, and Van
Dieman's Land.
On the vote of 10,0001. for galleries of art in
Edinburgh,
Mr. BRIGHT objected to a vote of the public money
for Edinburgh, which was not enamel to other towns,
such as Leeds, Birmingham, or Manchester.
Mr. B. OSBORNE moved as an amendment that the
Tote be negatived.
The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the vote on the ground that there was an obvious dis-
tinction to be observed between the three capital cities of
the empire—viz., London, Dublin, and Edinburgh—and
other towns; and he considered it by no means unfair
that the vote should be granted.
After some discussion, the vote was postponed.
The vote, 4,049/., charges and expenses of civil esta-
blishments in Bermnda. was agreed to.
Colonel SIBTLIORY protested against the declara-
tion of his Right Hon. Friend that he could not tell
'When he would an en with the Committee of Supply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Noble Lord had already stated that on Thursday next he
would state the course of business.
The House then resumed,
The Linen Manufactures (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee.

The Earl ST. GERMANS said he Ives quite willing
to postpone his amendment.
Lord STANLEY said that the Noble Lord on the
cross benches had alluded to the present mode of rating
under the poor-law valuation. From all the informa-
tion he had obtained on that point he believed! that that
valuation was extremely diffareet in different counties,
and though well adapted fur the levying of a poundage
rate, was quite unsuited for being made the basis of the
franchise. Though not prepared with any amendment
he should like to hear the Noble Marquis state whether
any measure was contemplated for the purpose of
having a proper valuation.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said it might be true that
there Ras a difference in the mode of valuation in dif
ferent counties' or even between some unions in the
same county in Ireland, but in England the same diffi-
culty existed.
Lord STANLEY said that in England the rent, and
not the retina, was take'.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM admitted that, but reminded
the Noble Lord that rents varied in different towns,
and that a 10/. house in one town was occupied by a
very different sort of person from the tenant of a 101.
house in another town.
The Earl of CARLISLE said, though he admitted
they had not a perfect basis for the franchise, yet they
had to choose between the present measure and the ano-
malous and disgraceful state of things that at present
existed. The tseement valuation of Mr. Griffith was
now being carried on. In a year or two it would be in
force in six of the largest counties in Ireland, and would
serve as the basis of the poor-law valuation, as well as of
the franchise. In every other county the grand jury
might apply to the Lord-Lieutenant to have the valua-
tion extended to them. Looking at the trickery, frauds,
perjuries, and conflicting decisions of the present sys-
tem, he thought it would be wiser to effect an immediate
cure of that vicious syvem than to delay the remedy
until they got a complete and satisfactory basis on which
to rest the franchise.
Lord MONTEAGLE thought if they could not at
present get a perfect system of valuation, they ought to
adopt some checks by which frauds would be prevented.
After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW and the
Marquis of Lensnowen, the amendment was understood
to be withdrawn.
Lord DESART said he had assented to the second
reading of the Bill with considerable hesitation, because
he was afraid that it would be impossible at a subsequent
stage to introduce any amendments which should ob •
vista the dangers and difficulties which must necessarily
result from its adoption. His objection to the Bill re-
mained unchanged, particularly upon the amount fixed •
upon for the qualification; and he asked their Lordships
to consider whether it was not expedient t i adopt a
larger sum than that fixed upon by the other House.
The sum which be intended to propose was 151.; and if •
any lower amount should be determined upon, he should
feel it his duty to give the further stages of the Bill
every opposition in his power. The Bill would give a
great preponderance to town over country
voters. Believing that a 151. rating would
ha far more likely to express the real
opinion of the country than a rating of SL, he ventured
to propose the amendment to the consideration of their
Lordships. The Government were running a great risk
in trying this new experiment in Ireland. In a country
of all others the most liable to agitation they were
fixing a proportion far beyond the franchise granted to
other parts of the kingdom, and that without any refs-
son vvhateve". lie thought the lowest sum that could
be fixed upon for the franchise, consistent with safety,
was 154, and it was not without considerable hesitation
that he bad made up his mind to propose so small a sum.
but on that he and the friends with whom he acted
would take their stand, and ho asked their Lordships not
to take this gigantic stride towards universal suffrage,
PETITIONS. from which it would be impossible to recede—(Hear)
Lord BEAUMONT presented several petitions in —whereas if the 151. franchise did not operate bene-
favour of the extension of county courts. fieially it might easily be extended.—(Hear.) lie con-
The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions sidered the present measure altogether uncalled far, not
in favour of the clause in the Factory Bill, of which he one single petition having been presented to their Lord-
had given notice, and if that clause were not carried he ships on the subject.—(Hear.)
should, on the motion for the third reading, move that The Marquis of ORMONDE was understood to ex-
it be read a third time that day six months. press himself in favour of a 12/. franchise, which would
PRIVILEGES OF PEERS. increase the number of voters very considerably.
The NOBLE DUKE then presented a petition from The Bishop of DOWN did not consider the apprehen-
Lord Henniher, an Irish Peer, who had been appointed sions entertained by many persons with respect to the
to serve the office of High Sheriff of the county of 8/. franchise well founded, and had obtained such returns
Suffolk, which he considered was a breach of the privi- as would enable him to give his conscientious vote in
lege of the Peerage, and praying for the interference of favour of the measure. An Si. suffrage would not give
their Lordships. anything like the universal suffrage apprehended by
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the selection of some Noble Lords, In five electoral divisions, he fouled
sheriffs was made made not by the Privy Council, but the number of persons rated 52,000, and of that number
by the judges of the laud, who alone could decide what only 17,400 would be enfranchised by the 81. clause.
was or was not the law, and on them rested the reapon- That was only one-third of the whole number. Now
aibility of the selection. There had been several in- was it to be supposed that the 34,000 who would remain
stances in which Irish Peeis had served the office of unenfranehised were incapable of being entrusted with
sheriff in EngliSh counties. , it?—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Surely
Lord BROUGHAM thought that this was a matter their Lordships did not intend to say that out of 52,000
of privilege, and that, therefore, the House, and the ratepayers, 31,000 were incapable of exercising the
House alone, could deal with it. elective franchise.— (Renewed cheering.) New, with
The Earl of WICKLOW said that no Irish Peer had regard to the respectability of the parties, htaheld in his
ever been called on to act as sheriff in his own country, hand a letter written by a most respectable and intelli-
and there was no reason Why he should not be so called gent agent, who stated that he had looked over the
upon if he could be called upon so to act in this country. rating between 81. and 9/., and, as far as he knew,
Ise considered it was coatrary to the Act of Union to almost all the parties were tenants of head landlord',
call upon an Irish Peer so to act. each holding from 10 to 20 acres of land. He believed
Lord CAMPBELL said that to all privileges of Peers that there would not be one solitary instance of a cottier
Irish Peers were strictly entitled, but not to privileges of tenant brcoming enfranchised under the Biil. In the
Parliament, and the exemption from serving the office of county of Down, the persons rated at Si. were intelligent
sheriff was not a privilege of the Peerage, but a privi- and respectable persons. —(Laught-r.) Much anxiety
lege of Parliament, and therefore an Irish Peer, not a prevailed in Ireland on this subject, and he was con-
Member of Parliament, was not exempt. 'winced that an increase of the 81. franchise would destroy
After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE and the the value of the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Duke of RICHMOND, the petition was ordered to be laid Lord STANLEY admitted that it was right that Ire-
on the table. land should be placed on full equality with England with
POLICE IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL, regard to the franchise; but when the Right Rev. Pre-
This Bill passed through Committee. late advocated so small an amount, he must know little
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL. or nothing of the English system. In England it was
This Bill passed through Committee. requisite that every person having a lease should have,
Their Lordships then resumed. over and above all rents and charges, an actual profit of
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL, at least 201. for a lease in perpetuity, and a profit of 50/.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the order of with regard to a lease for 20 years. With regard to
the day for the House going into Committe on the those persons who held as tenants at will, or occupied
above Bill.
from year t 3 year, it was requisite that their possession
Their Lordships accordingly went into Committee, should not be of value to be rated at Si., but of value to
the Earl of SHAFTESBURY in the chair. be rated at 501. He did not contend that in Ireland the
Lord STANLEY called their Lordships' attention to amount of value should be the same as in England, but
the 14th line of the first clause. The effect of the pro- that it ought to be such as to insure intelligence, respec-
vision
of voters
contained would be to disfranchise the tibility. and independence in the voter.--(Hear.) The
class
ot
luersofwho held lands on leases of twenty years Right Rev. Prelate had not given names; nor had he
of the va Bove all the charges upon them. mentioned the unions of which he spoke. Highly as he
Although he was not disposed p
a division, he would ,recommend the omission of the people of the north of Ireland, he was inclined to doubt
words, in the clause in question, "in virtue of any qua- the assertion that every person rated at 81. per annum
lification not requiring, occupation."
The Earl of CARLISLE opposed th , was of that entire respectability insisted upon by the
e suggested Right Rev. Prelate.
amendment. The principle of the present Bill was, that The Bishop of DOWN named the unions, which
the voter's claims to the franchise should not depend we understood to be fire in number, and which we un-
Upon himself, but that the sole test of his qualification derstood were Newtownards, Belfast, Coleraine, and two
should be the rating alone.—(Hear.)
others in the counties of Down and Antrim.
After a short discussion, in which Earl Grey, the Lord STANLEY resumed—The first thing that
Earl of Glengall, Lord Redesdale,havi and
bother Noble struck him was in reference to the Right Rev. Prelate's
Lords took pert,the preposition, not ng een pressed, calculations. It appeared to him, either that the value-
seas understood to have dropped. tion must have been one exceedingly defective, or that
The Earl ST. GERMANS then came forward to move the land was of as' bad 'ia lit For when their Lord-
the amendment, of which he had given notice, in c!ftufse ships were told that theci areayt* majority of those rated
1, page 2, line 5, to substitute the word " twelve or at Si. occupied fifteen or twentyg acres of land, they must
the word " eight." The county franchise in Ireland suppose those persons were rated on a less scale than in
depended entirely on the value of the house. The value. other parts of Ireland, or that the valuation was grossly
of the lands was not at all taken in connexion with it. and notoriously unfair, and, therefore, that the valuation
He contended, therefore, if by adopting his amendment did not accurately represent the number of persons who
they gave a stimulus to landlords to improve the dwell- ought to exercise the right of voting. The Right Rev.
jags of their tenantry, that a very material social, Mn" Prelate had told them if they adopted this valuation they
have
ral, and physical advantage would be conferred on the would onlyreasantry. for these five unions a constituency of
ate census, He contended also, from referring to the 17,000. The Right Rev. Prelate had asked the House '
evedln
that the effect of his proposition would not if they believed that out of the whole number of
in those unions
be to narrow the constituency of Ireland. He could not, ratepayers
franchise? two-thirds were unfit to
he confessed,
thirdshe (Lord Stanley)
Nobleesed, rote in favour of the proposition of his extrwepele-
Friend near him (the Earl of Desert) because asserted
,of that class
that point had exercise ththeathebeli
utterly unfit to exercise the f already been amply discussed and decided were
'n the exercise it
a House of Commons. It was desirable that the that is, to
independently—free from
franchise •
in Ireland should no longer depend the con- the control of their landlords, or apart from the influence
on
flieting oaths of interested ,hear.) He believed the majority
that iearties—(llear, hear)—but of .
that the right Ireland who occupied ten sum sat a .k
of voting might be ascertained by the of psrsons in
of 'la; h they rat. -
amount to which
es out AN .c could form an
cw a party was rated to a certain time. rent were not puss)
ev._
(Hewn) Taking the
had
included by moving the amendment of which he independent conftituen s
f the N ble Lord, you popu-
o if had a
lotion and the ststement 0,.
The Marquis of wouid give a constituency of
Was his LANSDOWNE said he thought it . qualification of 151. it
32 counties of Ireland, the
meat, duty with respect to the other House of Perlin- 10,000, which divided emong
This
that iiannuds the great mass of information conveyed to average would Ir. 5,600 for eachcounty.
the
averaee for averageFns whie
it .o on the present subject, and the deliberations for irelend would be higher than.
hardly he said,
a had given the question in its • 1 Scotland •• nd therefore it could
repeated he felt it all bearings—he land art, a
that the franchise
Lordships a ' to be his duty to offer the Bill to their if the 15/. franchise were adopted,
loner he
velen . . s it at present stood narrowed too much. If they went
He acknowledged, would be
1 he heard his Nobler • *effect it would have on the
of giving encou riend's arguments in favour would ask them to see the
r.ualifieation 1
and comfortsbt lower
ragement to the erects of more solid elections. If they adopted the o .
he was led awe buildings for the peasantry of Ireland,wouldafford tituency of 335,000, which worldg .
a cons .
Y st fir voters fur each
Presentations. 0 rat
by the speciousness of his re- an average of between 10,000 and 11,000
£t n furthtwo thirds of
would be iir___,. er consideration they had found county. Out of the whole number, nearly t
''''i'vult'ut to Itti • be rated belq 201, In
admit that as a test, as the she whole constituency would

THE EXHIBITION OF 1851.
Colonel SIBTLIOR gave notice of his intention to
move for a Select Committee to inquire into the plans for
the building to be appropriated to the exhibition in
Hyde Park; also that no further steps be taken by the
Commissioners until the report of the Select Committee
is laid on the table.
The House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 1.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.

- THE PAKS.
Lord BROUGHAM asked if there was any objection
io lay before the House the plans for the alteratior! of
Ihe Green-park and of Hyde-park. He also complained
if the removal of nine elms from Hyde-park. His
Noble Friend who had been recently at the head of that
t lePartment would have said with himself, in the words
)f Virgil
Fortunatus et illo Deos qui novit agrestes,"
lint it would appear that his successor adopted a different
/ reading, and said--

Fortunattts et ills Duos qui movit agrestes."
Some of these elms had been planted for more than 200
.years. He had a motion on the subject for to-morrow,
Which he would postpone until Thursday, on the under-
standing that nothing should be done in the meantime.
The Marquis of I. ANSDOWNE was understood to
lissent to the production• of the rapers, but not to assent
to the proposition for postponement.
Lord BROUGHAM would then let his motion stand
for to-morrow.