The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

• —(Loud cheers.) In politics, it was true, he had c:eated
I some enemies, though not very many, in this country, where
he was best known—(Cheers)—but no man had adorned the
judgment-seat with brighter faculties ; he possessed the
highest order of talents ; his integrity was incorruptible ; his
intellect was first-rate, and he thought it hard that a man who
had risen to pre-eminence by means so honourable, should
he attacked for party purposes in terms so severe as those used
by the Noble Lord. He was sure that Lord Lyndhurst would
not have spoken of any political opponent in such terms in his
absence.—( Loud ch•.ers. ) Hut was this all that was unge-
nerous ? 't he Noble Lord relied on the use of some particular
expressions attributed to Lord Lyndhurst ; and he was be.
frayed into saying that it was not for his talents, that it was
not for his faculties, that it was not for his judicial knowledge,
that it was not for his virtue, that it was not for his integrity—
he was raised to the woolsack, but that his Right Hon. Friend
recommended bins to it on account of his hostility to Ireland.
—(Cheers.) He was sure that upon more calm reflection the
Noble Lord would not have used those expressions. Certain
expressions had been attributed to Lord Lyndhurst in the
House of Lords, which, within five or six days after they had
been used, he positively denied—( No, no, and Hear, hear)—
n the sense in which the were taken. Lord
Lyndhurst used those expressions in the presence of
the First Lord of the Treasury ( Lord Alelbous.ne),
and in the presence of the President of the Council ( Lord
Lansdowne), and they never commented upon those expressions,
which it would have been their duty to do if they had under-
stood them in the sense attributed to them. He would nose
pass from this subject by assuring the Noble Lord that he heard
him speak of Lord Lyndhurst in the terms wi,ich he did, with
the greatest pain. He would now return to the meeting at
Clontarf, from which he hail digressed, and he begged of the
Hausa to attend to the dates, which were material to a right un-
der landing of the case. The requisition for convening the
meeting was signed on the 27th of September. end on Satur-
day the 29th a proclamation was issued of a very
peculiar character. The Lord-Lieutenant was then
in England fur the benefit of his health, and his
attention was directed to the proclamation. Mr.
O'Connell had often before alluded to the display of inrantry
attending the repeal meetings, he said that they were superior
to those which the Duke of Wellington commanded at the
battle of Waterloo, and better than those whom Napoleon led
to Moscow. But in the requisition for the Clontarf meeting,
allusion had been made for the first time to repeal cavalry.
He would not read the proclam dion.—( Cries of
"Do ; do." The it glit Honours ble Gentleman
then read the proclamation convening the meeting. )
He would now call the attention of the House to the state of
Ireland at that time. Immense multitudes had assembled ;
those violent assemblages had increased. There were the meet-
ings at Mullaghmast, there were other important meetings at.
the Coneiliation Hall. Then at last came the proclamation
with respect to the it eeting at Clontarff.—( Hear, hear.) It
had been asserted that this was to be the last meeting. Why,
what was the fact? Why, they had the words of 3lr. O'Con-
nell himself, dated at Mullaghsnast, in which he stated that
five or six meetings were yet to come, and that the do-
nothing policy of the Government would not heal the
sores of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At this time the proclama-
mation issued. Upon that event taking place, he (sir James
Graham) summoned the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the
Lord Lieutenant and the different members of the Privy
Council. This was on the 9th of October. They deliberated
on the proclamation, they reconsidered it, and they thought it
was necessary the military proclamation should be withdrawn.
—( Hear, hear. ) At least that the word " group" should be
substituted for " troop."
Mr. WALLACE—WiII the Hon. Baronet state to the House
the new proclamation
SirJ. GRAHAM—Certainly. The Right Hon. Baronet
then read the substitution for the proclamation, several parts of
which created considerable laughter in the House. The Go-
vernment then deliberated whether the altered proclamation
gad materially changed the facts. It was thought it had not,
and it was then considered necessary that the Lord Lieutenant
and the Lord Chancellor, who were at that time in London,
should proceed immediately to Dublin, having authoriiy, imme-
diately after their arrival, to do whatever they might think ne-
cessary. The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant ar-
rived in Dublin on the Friday, and after weighing the whole
proclamation—a proclamation that had beer, posted round
Dublin for 30 miles—a proclamation which was known at four
o'clock on Saturday afternoon, they thought it their duty to
adopt the course they had done. He was happy
to say—and he did so with the greatest pleasure—
that Mr. O'Connell had used his utmost exertions,
and those exertions had been eminently successful in prevent-
ing the loss of life.—(Great cheering.) The Government
was convinced that the simplest mode of arriving at the truth
was the course they had adopted.—( Hear.) The Noble Lord
the Member for London had asked what had been the result
of the proceeding of the Government ? He would tell that
Noble Lord, that advantages of the utmost importance and
benefits of the greatest extent had already taken place. There
had been peace in Ireland for the last three months.—( Hear. )
There had been an iwsreaae of employment; besides that, it
had been proved, that without the extreme stretch of the law,
they had overcome a most dangerous principle.—( Hear.)
The Noble Lord had said that the Government had occupied
Ireland by military force.—( Hear, hear.) Most certainly did
he say that they had done so, when it was attempted to '
wrest Ireland from her Majesty by foree.—( Hear,
hear.) Hcr Majesty's Government had been convinced
that. there was a design to tamper with the military—( Hear)
and could the Noble Lord scy, under such circumstances, that
the Government was not bound to take the precaution they
had done ?—( Hear, hear.) What had been the conduct of the
Government upon the subject? Why, until the month of
March, so far from adding to the army in Ireland they were
reducing it.—( Hear, hear.) He had a return, which had been
moved for in the other House of Parliament, and that showed
kNaonwd, fiolne
thein Ireland r
jfar
no nusa
1.178, 30184 T,
tlhBe4r
e 4.
was-- Hreaanrk,
htlewarr.
) and file in Ireland amounting to '21,257.—( Hear.) In
1833, and 1834, what was the state of the rank and file ?
Why, in 1833, it was 23,928—(Hear)—in 1834 it was
23,844, and between the Ist of September, 1841, and the 10th
of March 1813, during which the " monster" meetings began,
the force in Ireland was reduced by the withdrawal of two regi-
ments of cavalry and twelve battalions of infantry, leaving four
battalions of infantry and one regiment of cavalry.
Mr. WALLACE wished to know what the numbers were
in 1841-1643.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that in 1841 the numbers were
14,687 ; and in 1843, 14,406.—(11ear, hear.) He ( Sir J.
Graham) must admit, with the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London, that it was an unwise policy to hold Ire-
land to this country by military force. Such a course could
never be looked upon as sound policy. He would now glance
at the measures taken by the Government, and those which they
were now preparedto take. The Noble Lord and the Right lion.
Gentleman had gone upon most erroneous premises, and they
were unable to discover any thing very new with respect to Ire-
land. As to the tenure of land, the Commission issued by the
Government had touched upon every point to which the
Noble Lord and the lion. Member for Waterford had ad-
verted.— ( Hear, hear.) He was supported by all authority that
the law of ejectment was beneficial to Ireland—that the law
of plantations was equally
had proved highly beneficial. These subjects, however, it was
contended on the part of the Government should undergo re-
vision, necessaryancl t hat
thethey
lawshould
subletting
m a de.
Thrsatietohini
rir,
ooespnsnop. and
Member
eiati
ono
byit
eni alteration trfeleoara:as.lte
viontfani lee7irnnf
(du,
rl
number
rbdseaari ndni
tsi tenantstipendiary
enh
(ei thearr
y Majesty'smagistrates Noble
Go-
vernment had reduced the number of tipendiary magistrates.
Now, he begged the House to attend to the facts he was about
to read. The number of stipendiary magistrates in 1838,
1839, 1840, and 1811, under the admiristration of the Noble
59
the
Government This
was took
at a
a votel,ery for
curious Lord opposite, amounted to 59. In the estimates for 1841,
2 psol of July, 1841.—( Hear, hear.) It was then that the
Noble Lord and his colleagues bethought themselves that the
time had arrived when it was expedient to add to the number
stipendiarysoled,
namely,magistratesin
on the
ihreela
of stipendiary magistrates, having had for four years only 59.
On the 15th of June the addition commenced, for on that day
a another
ardedsitgt
two were added. On the 28th of July two more were added,and
on the 6th of August one more Was added, and on the very
day
seasinoendwtahsem ad: to of
the office
nce bnteor.
the course of two months seven new magistrates wereappointed.
Now, the case would not be perfect if he did not contrast it with
the conduct of her Majesty's present Government. They did
not consider it necessary to maintain the appointments of those
seven magistrates, hut as soon as vacancies occurred, four of
nhle
In
Majesty's hands,
n d Melbournes, that Lord
these gentlemen were appointed to the situations, and these
gentlemen were firm supporters of the late Government. The
Hon. Member for Waterford had laid some stress en the ques-
tion of national education. He (Sir James Graham) had to
state to the House that it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, in the estimates of the present year, to propose
a con•iderable increase to the grant, for national education. It
was also intended by her Majesty's Government to place the
Roman Catholics of Ireland on the same footing with respect
to charitable bequests as the Roman Catholics and Protestant
Dissenters of England. He wished before he sat down, to
allude to the question of the franchise in Ireland.
It was the intention of her Majesty's Governmentt.
to introduce a new Registration Act for Irela
and to propose an extension of the county franchise.
It was the intention of the Government to deal in some
mea-
sure with the franchise of cities and towns. the
i presenttted t o
pay any one of the little local taxes for which he wa ms
law any person was deprived of his franchise if he
In Dublin there were no less than twenty such local taxes,
and if a person were to omit the payment of one of them, he
would be liable to lose his franchise. This was vexatious,
and
n liable.
after all was an insufficient, security. It was no test of solvency.
But since the passing of that Act, the Poor-law Act had been
passed, and poor• rates established. It was proposed by the
Government, that for the maintenance of the franchise it
should be necessary to pay the borough rates, the jury cess,
and the poor-rates only. The Noble Lord had stated that
his Noble Friend ( Lord Stanley) had described the Bill of
Lord Morpeth as one that had been introduced under false
colours. It was true that his Noble Friend had made use of
such an expression, but he did so in reference
to the terms of the Bill, as it was stated that it was a Bill to
define the franchise ; whereas it was not only a Bill to define
the franchise, but also materially to alter it. It, was on this
ground that his Noble Friend had said the Bill lit.d been intro-
duced under false colours. The Noble Lord opposite had
alluded to the judicial appointments under her Majesty's present
Government, and had stated that it was impossible to make proper
appointments from the Conservative members of the bar in Ire-
land. Now, what was the fact? Who were the e.ounsel engaged by
the traversers in the late trials?—( Hear, hear.)
an(dSi was ther
James
He taught
there were seven or eight counsel employed, and, with the
exception of Mr. Pigot, Mr. Shed, and Mr. Monahan, were
Aoorewasa.erPemroetnets. itanie
Protestant,
CeSoo ovra-tGieens r r f
illte late Gm o
Graham) now approached a most important subject. Ills
i tr v
Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, had been
asked to put a construction upon the oath taken by the Catholic
Members. Ile hoped his Right lion. Friend would not an-
saver that question. It was not an oath imposed by him, but
an oath imposed by the Legislature. Ile ( Sir J. Graham) did
not think there was any advantage to be derived in a discus-
sion as to the construction of an oath. When the Legisla-
ture gave the Roman Catholics a full participation in the
rights conferred by the Constitution it gave it in
consideration only of their taking that oath ; and having done
so full confidence was placed in them by the Legislature. He
would, for a moment, turn to the observations of the Noble
Lord with respect to the Established Church. As he under-
stood the meaning of the Noble Lord, it was that an equality
with respect to religion should be observed in Ireland. In
passing, he could not abstain from saying that the plain object
of this motion, was to take the reins of power out of the hands
of her Majesty's present Government. He imagined, under
these circumstances, that the Noble Lord might have stated
some distinct policy on a matter of such importance —(Cheers
and ironical cheers. ) Was the Noble Lard prepared to propose
a system of perfect equality? How were they to make that qua-
lit) ? Were they prepared to endow the Roman Catholics in
the same manner a, members of the Established Church ? He
thought that the Presbyterians and the Protestant Dissenters
of this country would not very well like to be taxed for sech a
purpose. The Nob!e Lord had himself deprecated the voluntary
principle. The division of the revenues of the Church be-
tween Catholics and rrotcstants would be the source of endless
strife and implacable animosity.—( Hear, hear.) Ile was sorry
to have occupied the attention of the House for so long a time.
With respect to the Protestant Church in Ireland, he did not
approve of any of the nostrums which had been offered on
the other side of the House for its maintenance. The
measures which had been suggested were inconsistent with
the principle which regulated the Protestant ,State of Eng.
land, and which was decidedly favourable to a Protestant
Church.—( Hear, hear.) That Church had been established

by the Reformation—had been confirmed by the Revolution—
and had been guaranteed by the Act of Settlement. The Act
of Union had strenwhened the establishment of that Church,
and it should not be overthrown by a Repeal Association, or
by a body of conspira'ors, such as had recently bean
convicted in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Sibthorp.)
He had now gone through all those topics of the speeches of the
Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman. and though he had
touched upon them but imperfectly, yet, still he had stated his
opinions candidly and fairly, and no man could say that he had
not spoken frankly.—( Hear, hear. ) He could not say that the
Noble Lord, in seeking to displace the present Government, had
been equally candid and explicit.—( Hear, hear.) If the
House thought her Majesty's Government had acted
unwisely in strengthening the hands of the executive
in maintaining the laws—why let them so declare by their
votes that they were in favour of the policy of the Noble Lord ;
but if they approved of the mariner in which the Government
had discharged their duty to their Sovereign and the country—
why th,n let the House by a decisive vote negative the motion
of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers. )
An Ho N. MEMBER then moved the adjournment of the
debate, which was agreed to.
The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'clock.

ROUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 13.
Their Lords Lips met at Five o'Clock.
TITHE COMAIUTATION.
Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from the Rev.
Charles Miller, complaining of the provisions of the Tithe
Commutation Act, as injurious to the clergy.
EARL DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS.

Lcrd BROUGHAM gave notice that he should on Thurs-
day next bring under the consideration of their Lordships the
inventions of a Noble Friend of his, Earl Dundonald.
The Noble Earl wished to represent to the House the great
expense he had been put to in perfecting these inventions.
OATHS OF ROIIAN CATHOLICS.

Lord STOURTON gave notice that on the day most conve-
nient to their Lordships, either on Friday or Monday, he pur-
posed to bring before their Lordships the construction of the
Boman Catholic oath, and he stated to their Lordships what he

conceived to be the fair and honest meaning and construction o 1

that oath. Ile trusted he should not trespass too long on their
Lordships.' time if he was permitted for a few momenta to call
their attention to s ,me circumstances connected with that oath.
He did not at all mean to try to influence or act upon that
opinion of their Lordships; but still he should say that he
thought there was quite enough to warrant him in bringing
the subject before the House; and he therefore on Friday should
call the attention of their Lordships to the mode in which the
Roman Catholic oaths were constructed.
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition, praying
that the House would adopt such means as would secure the
spiritual education of the humbler classes.
Lord BEAUAIONT wished to know when it would suit the
Government to bring forward the measure relating to the con-
solidation of the turnpike-trusts in England ?
The Duke of \VELLING lON said that the matter would be
brought before the House either on Thursday or Friday.
Earl FORTESCUE presented a petition from Belfast, com-
plaining of the present state of Ireland. The petitioners
stated that they apprehended civil war, and that though
the use of power might be effectual for the suppression
of disorder, it could not remove discontent. They also
complaired of the inefficient state of the represen-
tation of Ireland, as compared with that of England,
In conclusion, they prayed the House to adopt such measures
as were best calculated to avert the dangers now impending, and
to pi-event the recurrence thereof.
THE STATE OF IRELAND.

The Marquis of NORMANBY, on rising to call the atten-
tion of the House to this subject, said—There were subject• of
such paramount and urgent importance in the minds of a
speaker, that they c )mpletely banished all considerations of self.

It was this alone which had induced him to encounter the diffi-
culty, and to incur the responsibility, of bringing before their
Lordships a subject of such great magnitude as that of which
he had given notice. He entertained feelings of such inten-
sity as to the present danger and as to the future prospects of
Ireland, that whatever other disqualification he might have, he
should at least address them with that earnestness which was,
he believed, the best passport to their Lordships' attention.
But he had another inducement to address their Lordships on
this subject; that even now, in the midst of all the excite-
ment and agitation—to which he was known to be opposed—
be daily received proofs from different parts of the country
of the kindly recollection retained by a kind-hearted people of
one whom they truly believed to have had their interest at
heart. No one would deny that the present state of that
country imperiously called for the immediate attention of Par-
liament.—( Hear.) One year since there was an agitation in
that country which the moderate in Ireland regarded with
disfavour, and in this country was opposed with a unanimity
almost unparalleled. It was headed by. an individual who,
whatever might be his claims to the gratitude of posterity, had
rendered himself, by many of his proceedings, dis-
tasteful to the large majority in this country. What
was the state of things now ? The repeal of the union
was not one degree less impracticable, but men's minds were
diverted from that simple issue to the canvassing freely and
the criticising unfavourably much of the conduct of her Ma-
jesty's Government. In the year 1829, when introducing the
Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the present Prime Minister,
in alluding to the state of Ireland, said that 7,000,000 of Ca-
tholi, a were united to a man. He was far from believing that
they were united on this subject, though they appeared to be
united against her Majesty's Government. —( Hear.) They were
not more favourable to repeal, but their condition was such
that he was justified in calling upon their Lordships for inquiry
into the subject. With reference to this he need only allude to
the petition which had just been presented by his Noble Friend
from certain Protestants in Belfast. lie had reason to believe
that the feeling there expressed was a growing one, that it
extended to many of the leading Protestants in Ireland,
and this result was owing greatly to the manner in which the
question had been treated. He was about to move a reso-
lution, of which it might be said, that in all the principles
contained in it her Majesty's Government entirely concurred.
He candidly avowed that that was not the view with which he
moved the resolution.—( hear, from the Duke of Wellington.)
tithe principles professed in the resolution were principles
which the Noble Lords opposite unscrupulously opposed when
they were not in power, though it was true that they paid
some lip homage to them at the moment of their accession to
office. But were there no other proofs but that petition of the
necessity of inquiry into this subject Another Noble Friend
of his had presented another petition, signed by the same class
of persons, to the same effect. He was sure that nothing but
an imperious sense of duty could have induced the first sub-
ject in Ireland—the Duke of Leinster—to have taken the chair
at the meeting at which this petition was agreed to. There
was also the letter, which they must have seen, of a Noble
Lord much opposed to the leader of the Repeal movement—the
Earl of Shrewsbury. All these things proved the necessity of
an inquiry into the conduct of the Government. He felt serious
ala, in at the state of Ireland; but trusted that peace would
still be preserved. He then proceeded to the repeal agita-
tion. When that agitation first became formidable, two
courses were open to the Government, by following up either
of which with perseverance, they would] have led to sepa-
rate advantages —( Hear, hear, hear.) They might have
interfered at first by proclamation to put down these
meetings. If this course was to be taken afterwards—if it was
resolved that it should be taken—it would have been the most
straightforward and most manly course to have taken it at
once. More than this he would say, that if the Government
had evidence enough to establish a charge of sedition, it was
their bounden duty to have interfered.—( Hear, hear.) lint
by the course they did take, though the advantages were con-
tingent, the evils were immediate. From the violence of some
of their declarations at the time, he certainly inferred that
they wished to strike but dared not. The best chance of the
success of their policy was that their vigorous acts should be
accompanied by remedial measurer. Common prudence should
have dictated to them, that if no rigour was to be shown, need-
leas irritation should have been avoided. But what (lid they
do ? They took that most senseless step of dismissing
the Irish magistrates. With this one exception, they
appeared determined to persevere in what some of
their friends called the do-nothing policy. But just
when they seemed on the point of reaping the fruits of
forbearance, when the agitation would either have died out,
or, passing a certain point, would have taken another form, at
that moment they altered their course, and stopped in, and
p• oceeded by proclamation against these meetings, thus giving
one sectian of their own party not only a triumph over the majo
rity of the people, but a triumph over themselves.—(Cheers.)
The Noble 1.-rd cheered, but it must be recollected that that was
not a new view of the subject. He was not generally inclined
to attribute to any party, particularly to persons in office, ar-
ticles which appeared in periodical publications. But in the
month of September last, there certainly did appear an article
in a periodical publication which, if he were not much mistaken
(and he had studied the style), x as the production of an old friend
of his (the Noble Marquis here turned towards the Marquis of
Clanricarde) than whom no one was better acquainted with
Ireland. The article he alluded to was in the Quarterly Re-
view.—( Ministerial cheers.) It must be remembered that the
opinions there stated were not his. (The Noble Marquis here
read a passage from the Quarterly Review of September last,
in which it was stated the meetings would wear themselves out,
and that the Fabian policy would at length defeat them; and
that the mischief that would result from the opposite course
would be incalculable.) lie (the Marquis of Normanby) had no
hesitation in saying that he agreed with these sentiments.
But the Government had taken a different course—
they issued their proclamation to prevent the meeting at Clon-
tart ; and before coming to that part of the subject, he wished
to know whether any Noble Lord had ever heard one single
person in private conversation defend the conduct of the Go-
vernment in that case—whether they had ever heard of so much
rashness, after so much vacillation, exhibited by any Govern-
ment ? If it had not been for the active interference of those
from whom the Govornment had no right to expect support,
what would have been the consequence ?—( Hear, hear,
from the Duke of Wellington.) He should like to hear some
explanation of the matter. If it was defended in that House, it
would be the first time that it was defended in any quarter.—
( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington, and other Noble
Lords oni the Alinisteral benches.) Noble Lords cheered
him, but he was sure he would not hear from them such taunts
as were used against the parties who had so interfered—taunts
of cowardice—because they had obeyed the law. He was sure
lie would not hear such a defence, and he hoped that Noble
Lords opposite who cheered would put their explanation in a
more intelligible shape. He would not trouble the
House at any length about his opinions respecting
repeal,
because
he had stated those opinions already
as strorgly as any of their Lordships, and that too not within
that House, but face to face with a portion of the Irish people,
who had previously advocated repeal. In the year 1836, an
address had been presented to him, when in the south of Ire-
, land, from one of the Ridings of the county of Cork, in which it
was stated that they had advocated the doctrine of repeal, but
had given it up in consequence of the measures they expected
from the Government. lie, on that occasion, stated his
sincere opinion, that the repeal was not for the benefit of Ire-
land, and that his sincerity in that opinion was in proportion to
his love for Ireland. The people stated to him on that occasion
that all they asked was equality with the British people, and a
reciprocity of rights and principles. With less, they said,
they could not be content, and with less, he said, they should
not he content. Ile thought that the present condition of the
sister nation was such as to require all the benefits which
could be derived from progressive legislation ; but it must
have progressive legislation, it could not be acquired by a re-
peal
of the union. Ile should still say, notwithstandiig that
opinion, that the question of the repeal of the union was one
„dim, was open to discussion ; for, although injurious
as its consummation might be to the kingdom, yet it was only
the restoration of an Act which existed many years ago, and
which Act when it was repealed was opposed by many of the
most eminent of both countries, amongst whom was the re-
spected late Lord Holland. lie therefore denied the right to
impute to the Irish peopls. a spirit of " wild " enthusiasm,
when they sought to repeal an Act which had been opposed by
such men as those to whom he just now alluded, and the more
particularly so when the machinery by which this Act was
carried was such as not to bear investigation or to meet the
daylight, and had been in its origin opposed by, the leading
men of the country, In repeating what he said in the year
1836, with respect to his opinion of repealing the union, he
was. alone actuated by the most sincere love of Ireland and the
Irish people. lie most certainly must dissent from the prin-
ciple which the present Ministry seemed to involve in the last
speech from the throne, namely, that they were, even in the
slightest degree, bound to abide by a declaration made in a
former reign. What, he would ask, was the intent of a
dissolution of Parliament, but to take the sense of the people,

and therefore how was a new Parliament to be held
responsible for the declarations made in a previous
one ?—(llear, hear.) In seven years after the declaration
of the union with Scotland, the Duke of Argyle waited in per-
son upon her Majesty, and said that to such an extent had dis-
content now existed, that the nation must consider the union
dissolved. He (the Earl of Nermanby) thought that the best
way to repress the agitation—which was so much deplored by
their Lordships—was to apply a remedy to the grievances of the
country. There might he such a thing as persevering attempts
to create turbulence and disaffection by a denial of justice.—
( Hear, hear.) Let their Lordships go back, let them freshen
up their recollections, and say if they knew of no phrases used
—( Hear, hear.)—no stringent measures suggested—no re-
medies refused which were calculated to embitter the
feelings of the Irish and provoke them to disaffection? Why,
the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, whom however,
he admitted, from the kindliness of his nature was incapable
of a petsevering effort to anoy, so as to excite—but had not
his Noble and Learned Friend, if so he might call him, un-
happily used a phrase, in speaking of the Irish, which had sunk
deep into their minds? If they condemned so strongly the
application of the word " Saxon" to the English, surely they
ought to recollect the application of the word "alien" to the
Irish .

The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, but that was two
Parliaments back—( Great laughter. )
The Marquis of NORM A N BY- —That was the best
defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble
and Learned Lord had it in his power to make.—( Laughter. )
Well, he must say, he thought it was too serious a subject to
jest upon, and he was sorry to be conpelled to think that neither
two Parliaments, nor many more, perhaps, than two Parlia-
menss, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had
produced.—(Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex-
pression was used—in 183 G—other phrases were used whose
effect had scarcely been less injurious. It was the common
saying, if not of the Noble Lords then on the Ministerial
benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the
Government of that day was aolely kept in office by the Irish.
By making this distinction, they were as effectually departing
from the principles of the union as any repealer ever did, and the
intention to be implied could only be that they looked upon Ireland
as a province, instead of an integral portion of the British em-
pire.—( Year, hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a
very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured
friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron
Smith, father of the Attorney-General for Ireland, and of
whom hereafter he shouldThave a few words to say.—( Hear,
and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, not speaking
amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from
the judgment-seat, had declared that as long as England was
true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would
last ; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as
a province, instead of a part of England—( Bear, hear)—then
her independence as a nation would be claimed by her people.
Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was,
that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act
upon a system which must defeat itsel—they were always
trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi-
ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed.
Was that attempt made in Canada ? It was there felt that the
only nay to secure the affections of the people was to govern
through a msjority, and not through a minority. And what-
ever exorbitant pretensions might have groan out of the course
of proceeding adopted their, lie thought they were more than
counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It
had been often said that all the influence of himself and his
Noble Friend behind him, in Ireland, was owing to the patron-
age being placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It
had been found necessary to place the patronage in
Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those
who represented the majority of their countrymen. He would
take this opportunity of reterring to what he had said on this
subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837.
The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to
the distribution of patronage, declaring that though Mr.
O'Connell had occasional communications with him, his appli-
cations on the subject of patronage were fewer than those of
almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in
the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. He
did not deny that the Government consulted Mr. O'Connell in
reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge
of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this
was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with
him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any-
thing but a cause of regret. Such was the statement
which he made in 18.37 ; and he appealed to his successors,
whether the appointments which he had made, whether in
the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by
an efficient discharge of the vario is duties to beperformed.—
( Hear, hear.) He had felt that the great difficulty of go-
verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic
question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and
the time at which it was carried—being thirty
years later than it should have been. It was
unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been
carried at the sacrifice of public character ; and with respect
to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions which were
utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of
the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I
think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding years, when I
was employed in another part of the world. At the same time
he could not pass over those years in the presence of his Noble
and Gallant. Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to
his zeal in the cause of Ireland, and to his love for the Irish
people, displayed amidst difficulties from all quarters, and at
a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he
might have looked for support.---(Cries of .‘ Hear, hear.")
One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his
Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of
justice, and restore the confidence of the people in that ad-
ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John
Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained
among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in
Ireland a rare luxury.--( Hear, bear, and a laugh.) The Go-
vernment by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great
blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in
consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament.
This seemed to have some insincerity, as it was impossible to
believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were
the views of his Government with respect to repeal. When
a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some
question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the
newspapers.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed
magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis-
ters had occasionally made many declarations on different sub-
jects—on the Catholic question, on the corn-laws—and those
declarations had never been followed out; nay, the persons
who made them had been the first to set against them.—
( Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was
an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to
have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi-
dence in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the
Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to
their law appointments, again, they were particularly unfor-
tunate. Who was the first judge appointed? Baron Lefroy,
who, slain after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act,
was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declara-
tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the ,
passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish
people were:much interested, was that of national education.
Yet another judge they appointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson,
who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifi-
cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the
_!
Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin
in the year 1837, when all those in attendance were of one
party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re-
ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry
to say that circumstances induced him to believe that they
(the Romau Catholics) had very little regard for the sanctity
of an oath, and had very little hesitation in violating
their consciences. Such a statement as that ought
to have been a lasting dim lualification for any office
under Government. If Mr. Smith did not believe what
he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party
speech, he showed a deficiency of judgment, and discretion,
and every qualification which Noble Lords should have sought
in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At-
torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar-
quis of Normanby) must say that the unhappy man who
entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his
countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world,
was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his
intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government
through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such
a gentleman to office. He must say it was highly improper
for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person
whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it was utterly
impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the
bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of
conspiracy, he only repeated now what he had stated
in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz.
that he thought it the duty of Government, if they had had
evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecuted
directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this
new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation
of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of
the English people, who would otherwise be indifferent to the
state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con-
duct of the affair. 'With respect to the panel of the jury, the
only answer that was given to account for the omission of the
Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their
names had been lost. He thought that the first object in a
matter such as this should have been to have impannelled a fair
and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there
was a total exclus'on of Catholics?

The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes.
The Marquis of NORMANDY would ask, was not this a
question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland— did
not the opposite party appeal directly to the Protestants to
come forward and register ? The Government ought to have
taken special care to have chosen a jury which could not be
subject to the imputation of partiality. In support
of his opinion, he would read to thefr Lord-
ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Mail.
The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve
themselves into one of religion and not of politics, and that
the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent
upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ
of the Tory party. With respect to the formation of the jury,
therefore, he should say that it was most open to the imputa-
tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice of
Ireland, he (the Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well
aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned
Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the
idea when he was reading the Learned Jndge's charge that
he was reading the speech of the Solicitor-General instead.
He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than
1 to say that it was, happily, usual to find them adopting a
very differnt tone and manner when addressing juries in the
courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called
his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish
Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than
creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury,
that Learned Judge was reported to have said—" Gentlemen of
the jury, this is a most diabolical libel, and that is not mincing
the matter.”—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord
Normanby) to think that a very different tone and manner
prevailed in the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear.)
1. here were many subjects in connexion with the state of Ireland
to which he should have liked to have directed their Lordships'
consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made
by the Government; but he thought it would be better, under
all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were
their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an
inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in
moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord-
ships and the country. 'I here was, however, one matter
which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo-
ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was worth
the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right
Hon. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert. Peel), when
reading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire-
land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him ( Lord
Normanby) the honour of elmplimenting him on the judg-
ment he had shown in his selections.—(Year.) Hap-
pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that House, in
reference to his appointments, for, on a former creasion, Noble
Lords had expressed their approval of them. He begged, how-
ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether,
of all clerical candidates for honours and appointments in Ire-
land, they held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, by
humility of demeanour, and quiet, unobtrusive performance of
the duties of his sacred office ?—( Hear, hear.) In an account
which he had read, in a Government newspaper, of the famous
meeting at Hillsborough, it was stated, in the description lie
referred to, that " in a few minutes the first detachment headed
by the Rev. Holt Waring, and preceded by the union jack,
was now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intense ina,s
of human beings, comprising not less than twentythousandmen. This, the first detachment, under the llev. I?ean.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE— Very like the parish priests.
defend his
The Marquis of NORAIANBY—In his zeal
...
1 sotto, tin Noble Lord casts a slur on the racial priest..