The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-02 00:00:00

LL.
peti4oo

rievbet
he eta.
ine 1'
isfactel
et bythii
appoint:
e subjeo
aected
preslnt,
ight pry
irßunicjv
engsgv"
endo'
e of 90'
stood
I 5
non M
ery
de ofthe
ngd,4lls

onunitte.
he meolr
goti.
tbe

on of tilf
nd tb°°
d to fir",
of tb

'red O.
en Of
oniCe
hick W.

le HowoF'Yrigi
mts,
his day,'

number of in Tra.and without an occupation
franchisee But i tthey made an occupation franchise,
he *agreed with his Noble Friend that the amount
Should be fixed so low as to enable the voters to pro-
tect each other. Ile thought 301. was too high an
amount. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in
thinking that if they were to create a vote arising
from property in fee, there was no reason why the
amount required should be higher in Ireland than in
Er!gland.—(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, Ireland
being a'poorer country, a 40s. fee there was
a larger amount than the same fee in England,
-light The Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite
bad stated that if there was one thing which it
was more desirable to do than another it was to en-
courage per'sons in Ireland to acquire a small pro-
perty in land.. He thought that a I3oard of Franchise
poor-pWould be most valuable in Ireland, testing it by the
oor-law valuation. He was very. glad to hear that
la
Mjesty's Government were in favour of encou-
laging the
tee ,
acquisition of the right of voting by small
aunples.- He hoped her Majesty's Government
would adopt some means to render more easy, cheap,
l'ild
NoAmple, the conveyance of land.—(Hear, hear.)
thing so much tended to interfere with th'is salu-
urY
small process tie the difficulty and expense attending
conveyances of land. He trusted that the
Inquestion of stamps would not be excluded from con-
n.eration whenever that was discussed. He could
not but express his satisfaction at finding that they
quer:tionn"r
iheantering upon the discussion of this
manner which was likely to load to a
aa.teaotor settlement of the franchise.—(Hear.)
mentrmit•kli'EEL expressed a hope that Hon. Gentle-
iltitrqvu!s
onfot prejudge this question, and deprive
the opportunity of giving a deliberate
Ifirlael:t after examining the details of the Bill, and
_ ,vi._ g
withccess to the information which might be sup-
(ruesearpec,t to the effect of any particular pro-
toPensrtion.—
hear.) The course which the Go-
c. rn.ment proposed to take with respect to the muni-
,, laP,l_and county franchise in Ireland was this. They
_ti.
.d. found some disqualifiCations existing in Ireland,
whkch they proposed to remove. In Great Britain
130!cupation was not required as a necessary condition
latnydoti" as the case in freehold franchise. In Ire-
Leit was required. They proposed to remove the
astriction in
Breland,l and to place the 101. freehold
Great as occupation on the same footing as in
eat Britain. In Ireland they did not permit joint
14tezatitis to exereas' e the right of voting ; they did per-
-1‘• theme to do 80 in. England. Again the
overnment proposed to remove that disparity.
fey did not
propose to take away any
existing right, but to continue for the period of
Pied years, every such right, without any other
cuestio* than the continuance of the same qualifica-
tion, But they proposed to make concurrently with
these changes a very great increase of the franchise ;
!band he cited these two concurrent enactments, viz.,
e pfotection of every existing right, and the con-
`erring of a suspended right, as a proof that the inea-
Zurs Was conceived in the spirit of fairness. It had
beets constantly alleged that there was a great dis-
parity between the municipal franchise in England
and in Ireland. They had availed themselves of the
first opportunity of placing the municipal franchise
...in Ireland on the same footing on which it existed in
England. They gave an alternative franchise in Ire-
land,, either occupation amounting to 101., or the
"°i•ding of a tenement subject to the payment of the
rates. So. far as the municipal franchise was
concerned it would stand upon the same footing as it
been
ngm.ade as to the restrictions upon the right of
They proposed in future to prevent the voter
in'_,lll bein g disqualified, on account of the difficulty
ever
'er which he now lay of proving the payment of
y rate. That was the general effect of the mea-
sure which the Government proposed. They were
quite aware that there was a tendency in Ireland to
restrict the franchise, on account of the operation of
natural causes, and that legislative enactments would
probably have the same effect. They provided, how-
ever, a substitute which would make ample compen-
sation for the operation of both these causes, and
Which would fulfil the expectations which the people
of Ireland had a right to form on this subject. As the
Noble Lord had justly said, the subject was one of ex-
treme difficulty. With respect to leases, he thought Chat
dithey made the franchise dependent on the holders
4 a lease, the power of the landlord to restrict its
Ventured
to say, that in a short time, the franchise
uld be reduced to a degree which no one could
desire to see. They propard, that the man
rated to a given amount should have the right
solf.
voting. They now proposed, for the first time, a
franchise- in fee. On this subject, he must observe,
that some of the worst description of voters had been
those who voted under a 40s. franchise in fee; and
they had selected a Si, franchise as insuring a more
Ithsependent class than it was possible to get with
the smaller amounts.—(Hear.) He would not enter
into the details of this which on` as brought
forward to fulfil the declarations ma de the part of
her Majesty's Government.—(llear, hear.) He re-
peat
to consider the
that he hoped Hon. Gentlemen would take
ttme s
question, and weigh the infor-
Mation to which they had access instead of expres
sing a precipitate opinion as to the effect of the
'
Measure.
Mr. FRENCH would follow theadvice which had
Baronet..
just been
.given by the Right Hon
be.
_ifraelcfe received
benefits
nlerfiet-s
not anticipate that the Bill would .
land as a very great concession. .He did
ven by the Reform Bill
The Noble Lard confessedwered to be taken away.
that two-thirds of the
electors 'would be deprive of the franchise, and these,
it must be remembered, were the most popular class
of v°ters; and for this franchise he proposed to sub-
stitute what he could not but designate as a Chandos
clause He thought some of the alterations proposed
by the Noble Lord would have the effect of producing
'eater purity in the exercise of the franchise in
Ireland.
Mr.
Introdired, because
• lIIJME Was glad the . present Bill had been
through Which, for athgede determination had been brokenh
time, seemed to prevail en both
sides of the House, that the Reform Bill must be final.
The question wad
People of Ireland , would this measure, satisfy the
—would it remove that unfortunate
desire for separation from this country so universally
Prevalent there ? He feared not ; and more, he
thou ht it ought not to satisfy them. At present
Thr! were only 60,000 voters for 8,000,000 people.
..NOble Lord proposed to add 30,000 to them,
linakint
~,v, a total of 90,000—not more voters than one
Riding of
contained—not more than the West
Irish g. of Yorkshire contained. With respect to the
vil, ooroughs, they had at present hut a constituency
ed u'a°oo, and the Noble Lord did not propose to
add to that number. He admitted that the principle of
Pllng'
,the electoral franchise contained in the
Noble orris Bill was an improvement. The fran-
chise Inust'be greatly extended in Ireland in order to
afford sati.sfaction to the people of that country. Every
irarvidual who contributed to pay the taxes ought to
:la at elections. The Irish franchise ought
as 0 events. to be assimilated to the English as much
th'ep
issible in order to give the people a confidence in
tient nitoPerial Parliament, and to enable the Govern-
risoned
trove some of those troops which now gar-
countriy. He had no doubt that the pre •
..ult.--(Cries of
assenat
fmr
eesash lir e Nv oil d be held forth to the Irish people
R. Peel.) " Hear, hear," from Sir
tie understood the Right Hon. Baronet,
nonpdinibeong,g4tilaseavaeto tell him that, in his (Mr. Hume's)
racterised sue. fresh. insult, and deserved to be tha-
ne we're
an 11 . and if' the Right Hon Baronet
visionsin th
no other light. ,r,lalisehrtnean he would look upon it in
Bmililg;htit be some salutary pro-
fit
ra-thiener tpi
icrea7wc calculated posed
f
deonoessmioingh; thibite, coonntshideewrehdolaes,
it Was •
satisfied—a:rear, hear,) to make the Irish people dis-
Mr. M. GORE, t
tot refrain from ex hough an English Member, could
the Principles
and felt confidentedin
einCdeissing his entire concurrence in
greirVt.ttijs.faoct,iconoisitoNth
therismthhe Bill of the Noble
measure
Coto must give the
justice to his own
f
protest against the Bill . LI, said he should not do
flings if he did not enter hid
the Reform the Noble Lord. It extended a
portion of
11—the Chandos clause—
which, though he had been nine years in that House, he
Re objected to tri
uever beard an
increased on. Mmber say a good word of.
on the landlords, e power the Bill conferred
Tlie increase of
3:0 already possessed a great deal.
. ,000 in the county voters would
not much
whucalderetakthan i counterbalance the diminution
which
every day at ;Yorke p ace from causes which were
corn, and, the high
rents
seelif ts the reduced prices of
their produce was of landtl taken at a period when
Present greater value. In the
state of agriculceethe stringent enforcement
of the test of value wsitil
on the franc_
fears of the hise.—(Hear, hear.)
have a most injurious effect
He thouht the
Hon. Member for M tthat 13.11
Would not on rose the i
be well received in Ireland were well
great
grounded.
desiderata
It was acknowledged to be a
of
.tn to remove the present state
landlordertaintY that
and tenant prevailed between the
every way but the present Bill was
There was a calculated to promote that uncertainty.
lords to positive inducement in the Bill to land-
that the reserveltillw aldstate of uncertainty, and he feared
and emb'tt ' ou have the effect of perpetuating
land i ering those unfortunate differences between
hhd
lord and tenant, which much. crime and discontent. had been the source of
dso
aulg_polling in counties much neededregu altieornstiorengarln
:.orl
an polling-booth 100 votes would be polled
__
en
number
by a single clerk, whereas in Ireland the
Mme
s____ l?ber in a day was considered a great deal.
he __7°°,lol not oppose the introduction of the Bill, but
olzAlla not for a moment think that any registration
'‘atie Could be satisfactory which imposed higher
rate.of auaii6o . a
people, '
Plet--(liear h
ation on the poorer than on the richer
mt..
w....,... , ear.)
Vilaich..th 16E bad been pleased with the manner in
5 Noble Lord introduced his Bill, and would
• .

not dissent from any of the praises which had been
bestowed on the measure by Hon. Members on that
side of the House. 'With regard to the right of voting
derivable from freeholds, he entirely concurred with
the observations which had been made on both sides
of the House. He thought the great point was to es-
tiblish proprietorship, for a small proprietor was very
often more independent than a large leaseholder. He
regretted that the amount had not been fixed at a
lower value than 51.. He believed that if the Govern-
ment had adopted the 405., freehold it would not have
been abused now as it formerly was. He hoped the
Noble Lord therefore would see the propriety of
lowering the qualification. With regard to the muni-
cipal improvements which the Noble Lord suggested,
he (Mr Wyse) was glad the Noble Lord recognised
the same necessity for an extension of the franchise
in towns as in the case of counties. He (Mr. Wyse)
repeated that he was glad that this Bill had been in-
troduced as it had elicited from the Right Hon.
Baronet and the Noble Lord, the expression of prin-
ciples which he hoped the Government would be pre-
pared to carry fully into operation.
Sir R. PEEL said there were one or two points
which he wished to explain. He had said that in
some towns in Ireland it was impossible to apply the
English principle, namely, to give the right of the
municipal franchise after occupation for two years,
and the payment of all rates and taxes. He had since
been informed that it was possible to apply this prin-
ciple to all the towns in- Ireland, and therefore he
proposed to substitute that provision at once. The
Noble Lord' (Lord J. Russell) had expressed an ap-
prehension that the assimilation of the stamp duties
would have the effect of increasing the charges of
conveyance. Now, the reverse was the fact. Before
the assimilation of the duties, the stamp duty on a
conveyance of property up to the value of 1001. was
1/., but now it was reduced to 10s.
Lord ELIOT did not mean to discuss at any
length the occupation clause, but he would just allude
to an observation which had fallen from the Noble
Lord respecting it. The Noble Lord said that in
point of fact it was a'Chandos clause. This was not
so, for by the Chandos clause the qualification con-
sisted of the payment of a certain amount of rent to
the landlord, while the proposed occupation clause in
the present Bill made the qualification to depend upon
the tenant being rated to the poor. He did not think
that the Hon. Member for Kerry had answered the
question of his Right Hon. Friend. His Right Hon.
Friend said, "If you do not admit a qualification by
this description how are you to provide sufficient con-
stituencies in the Irish counties ?" The qualification
proposed he (Lord Eliot) believed, so far from
strengthening the disinclination on the part of land-
lords to grant leases, would have a directly contrary
effect. He believed that the present disinclination to
grant leases arose from .a disinclination to give poli-
tical power to those who were disposed to use it
against the landlords. He believed that the proposed
qualification would operate irrespective of the grant-
ing of. leases, which would be granted on the
probability of their being as conducive to
improvement in the cultivation of the soil.
He would make one observation as to the manner of
claiming to be registered. The Bill proposed that
the person claiming should merely send his name to
the baronial constable, to be placed in the list ; it
would then be sent to the clerk of the peace, by whom
it would be transmitted. to the revising barrister, and
the party claiming would not be called upon to ap-
pear unless he should be objected to. This was pre-
cisely the same as the law stood in England. The
Honourable Member for Montrose had asked whether
this Bill would satisfy the people of Ireland ? He
asked if the constituencies had been established in just
proportion to the population ? Why this principle
had never been admitted by any statesman. The
principle always acted upon had been to take property
and population, and combine them together. He be-
lieved that the Hon. Gentleman would find that the
franchise was wider, and upon a more extended basis,
than it was either in Scotland or in England. The
short coinings arose out of the different distribu-
tion of property. To 'give the same proportion to the
population in Ireland as in England, they must admit
every 51. rate-payer in the country to the franchise,
quite irrespective of any tenure whatsoever.
The Noble Lord had—asked what would have been
the" effect of the Bill of last session, with regard to
the rating of persons under 81. in large towns, and
under 41. in small ones? His (Lord Eliot's) answer
was, that by the 33d section of the 3d and 4th of
Victoria, an occupier might claim to be rated whether
he was liable or not. The Act of last session did not
in any way affect or take away that right. With re-
gard to the observations of the Hon. Member for
Kerry as to the oaths to be administered, he had
only to state that there would be but one oath to be
taken, and two queries would be put, namely, " Are
you the same person ? Have you already voted ?"
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought it would be
better to administer the general oath, that true an-
swers should be made to all questions, and then -any
questions could be put. He thought this would save
time.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, and
Lord Eliot, the Irish Attorney-General, and Sir
James Graham were ordered to bring it in.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
Lord ELIOT then moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend that part of the Act passed in the 3d and 4th
year of the reign of her present Majesty, intituled,
"An Act for the regulation of Municipal Corporations
in Ireland," which relates to the qualification of bur-
gesses and of voters at elections held under the said
Act.

Mr. SHAW thought that was an excellent oppor-
tunity of introducing. uniformity with respect to the
boundaries of municipal corporations in Ireland.
This would have the effect of increasing the county con-
stituencies. The city of Cork occupied a space of
four square miles, while the municipal district occupied
a space of seven miles.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.