The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-13 00:00:00

LAW INTELLIGENCE.

COURT OF BANKRUPTCY, Aug. 12.
(Before Mr. Commissioner GoULBURN.)
IN THE MATTER OF JOHNSON, JOHNSON AND MANN, OF
THE ROMFORD BANK.
This being the day appointed by the Learned Com-
missioner for the further examination of the bankrupts,
and for the proving of debts against the estate, the Court
was from an early hour crowded by parties interested, a
great majority of whom seemed country persons, small
farmers, and agricultural labourers.
At one o'clock the case was called, and the bankrupts
were placed in the box to be examined.
The Learned COMMISSIONER thought that as the ac-
commodation of the Court was so limited, that those
who wished to prove debts had better do so before the
Registrar in another room. That done, if any individual
wished to hear the examination, they might return to
as enableearlyas
those
possible.
The Learned Counsel concurred in the propriety of
hadthe Courteorae
fsuch a course, and the official assignees and the Regis-
armi
distance T his
mode
te return
Regis-
trar having retired to: Mr. Commissioner Evans's room,
the great body of the creditors followed.
Mr. Commissioner GouLnuaN—Now, Mr. Chambers,
for whom do you appear ?
Mr. CHAMBERS—I appear for the bankrupts, Mr.
Johnson, sen., and his son.
Mr. EDWIN JAMES said that he represented the as-
signees.
Mr. Johnson, sen., was then examined.
Mr. JAmEs—Now, Mr. Johnson, I believe you were
examined before his Honour on the Ist of July last ?
I expect I was.
Mr. JAMES—Since that time have no papers been
found, and sent to Mr. Hill, of Crutched-friars ?—No.
Mr. Jams—l ask you, did you not send several
boxes of papers to Mr. Hill P—l sent some boxes of
papers, but they have no connexion with the bank-
ruptcy.
Mr. JAmms—When did you send these boxes to Mr.
Hill ?—Subsequent to the stoppage of the bank, cer-
tainly.
Mr. JAMES—Did you examine those papers before you
sent them ; were there not many relative to the bank
sent ?—I was not aware of it at the time. I thought I
had sent all the papers so connected to Mr. Follett, the
official assignee.
Mr. JAMES—Were they sent without examination ?
Without examination.
Mr. JAMEs—Did you not suggest that they should be
sent to Mr. Hill ?—No doubt of it, and for this reason.
When Mr. Follett was in my office, I showed him the
boxes, and said that I should like to keep them. He
said, " Oh, send the papers ; put them in smaller boxes."
I did put all the papers that were connected with the
bank in other boxes, and sent them to Mr. Follett ; and
I was not conscious that I sent papers of a similar kind
to Mr. Hill.
Mr. JAMES—Mr. Follett's expression referred to the
boxes, and not to the papers, was it not so ?—No, no.
Mr. JAMES—I presume you have been looking into
your affairs since the bankruptcy ?—I have.
Mr. JAMES—When did you know that you were in-
solvent—before the bank stopped?—rdid not consider at
any time that the effects I possessed in the City of
London were insufficient to meet all engagements.
Mr. JAMES—Did you not know, or hear, before the
bank stopped, that there was a great deficiency as re-
garded it ?—There was an apparent deficiency in the
balance-sheet taken at Christmas last.
Mr. JAinas—Of how much?-19,0001.
Mr. James—Were you not told in May—l'll show
you the letter immediately—that there was a deficiency
to the amount of 31,000/. ?—I told you Christmas. Your
May is subsequent to that.
Mr. JAMES—Do you know Mr. Burness?—Yes.
Mr. JAMES—Were you negotiating as to the pro-
priety of taking him into partnership?—l declined for
two years to accept Mr. Burness as a partner.
Mr. JAMES—For two years you say ?—Yes; I had
letters from Mr. Burness. I myself never attempted. to
negotiate.
Mr. JAMES—You know Mr. Burness's handwriting?
—I had more letters from him than I ever read.
Mr. JAMES—I want a straightforward answer. Whose
handwriting is that letter?—l think it is like his. I
do not blow that I should authenticate his letters.
Mr. JAMES—Read that letter, Sir, and tell me whether
you did not receive it?—l do not see why I am to read
other person's statements.
Mr. JAMES—But it is a letter with a statement directed
to you, and it says that the bank is deficient 31,0001.,
and the writer declines to be a partner on that account.
I should think that, to tell a banker that such a de-
ficiency existed, was rather a material communication, eh ?
—I disagreed with his statement then, and do so still.
Mr. Commissioner GOULBURN—Had you not better
put that letter into Court, Mr. James. Pray who is
Mr. Burness?
Mr. JAMES—He was cashier at the Romford Bank,
toe, with 300/. per annum. I will read the letter, Sir.
It is dated the 29th of May, 1844. (The Learned
Counsel then read the letter, which was in substance
as already stated.)
The bankrupt's examination continued—Now, when
that balance sheet was made out in May, did you not
see it ?—I rather think I did.
Mr. JAMES—And it showed a deficiency of 31,617/.
12s. 10d. ?—I say I never agreed in that, nor at this
time agree in any such deficiency.
Mr. JAMES—Then did you ever by any process of
figures attempt to show that Mr. Burness's statement was
incorrect ?—No.
Mr. JAMES—Did you never, on seeing this alarming
deficiency, try to ascertain whether it was correct or
not ?—I did a few days after, I think, direct an account
to be made out by a clerk of the bank, which I brought
up to London, and the balance then appeared 19,0001.
Mr. JAMES—Were your books correctly kept ?—I
expect they were. I depended on their being so kept.
Mr. JAMES—Then had Mr. Burness any other means
of making his statement, except from the books of the
bank 2—l think not.
Mr. JAMES—Had you a private account with the
Romford Bank ?—I had.
Mr. JAMES—HOW much is it overdrawn 2—l will ad-
mit myself a debtor from 12,000/. to 15,0001. Will this
satisfy you ? But I don't call it overdrawn.
Mr. JAMES—Oh, it will satisfy me. Will it satisfy
anybody else ? I suppose, in fact, you have had your
customer's money out of the bank, and paid your old
debts with it. That is the plain English of it. Pray
what did you do with this large sum of 12,000/. or
15,000/. ?—I paid off a bond which was given thirty
years before with 15,000/. It had been always delayed
till I could pay it.
Mr. JAmEs—Then this specific money went to pay the
bond ?—Yes, in instalments.
Mr. JAMES—What, at the time you drew it out 2
Oh, no ; I wish for an adjournment in order to give
better answer than now. I did not expect to be ex-
amined to-day.
Mr. JAMES—Were you not in the habit of paying in
bills and cheques drawn and accepted by yourself to your
own private credit ?—I do not say a habit, but I have
done so.
Mr. JAMES—Have you never paid in cheques which
never went through your bankers ?—lf they bad been
presented they would have been paid. When not pre-
sented they were used as vouchers against me.
Mr. JAMES—Were you not in the habit of giving such
cheques, placing them in the hands of the clerk in the

Romford Bank, and telling him to credit you with such
cheques, and thus falsely receiving credit to a large
amount 7—The bankrupt returned no answer.
Mr. JAMES—I will refresh your memory. Look at
that cheque for 1,0001. Did you not direct it to be car-
ried to the credit of your private account ?—I do not
dispute it.
Mr. JAMES—Did you not, after having received such
credit, prevent that cheque being paid to your bankers ?
—I do not think I did so. I never saw them from the
time I paid them.
Mr. JAMES—Did you not give the clerk directions not
to present this cheque 7—lt is a possible case that such
an order might have been given in a single instance. It
is possible it might have been ordered to stand over for a
month or two. There is a memorandum upon it to that
effect. The cheques were placed at the end of the book
to my debit. _ _

Mr. JAMES—Did you not, Sir, give a distinct order
that they should not be presented, and do not you know
that they were not ?—I certainly do, for they were placed
at the end of the book.

Mr. JAMES—Was this an universal occurrence ?—I
held myself bound to make up the amounts when our
books were made up.
Mr. JAMES—They are drawn in the names ofJ Anson,
Mann, and Co. Pray, did your partner know anything
at all of them ?—I did not ask his sanction. I was made
cash-keeper with his assent.
Mr. Commissioner GoULBUAN—•What are the dates
of those transactions, Mr. James ?

Mr. JAMES—January and March, 1839, drawn to
September, 1840.
The bankrupt—They stand to my debit now.
Mr. JAMES—Did you not draw your customers' money
from the Romford Bank, and take credit fur cheques
which never were, and never were intended, to be paid ?
—They would have been paid if presented. lam sure
if, at that time, they had gone in singly, they would have
been met.

Mr. JAMES—When you wanted money for the bank,
did it never occur to you to take them out of the strong
box and get cash for them?--I had intended to take as-
sistance for their full amount.

Mr. JAMES—Oh, you meant to redeem them from the
bank by borrowing the money?—Yes.
Mr. Jiang—Did you have recourse to the same sys-
tem with bills of exchange?—W&----
Mr. JAMES—Don't say we. Have you never accepted
bills and deposited them with the Romford Bank to in-
crease your own private credit?—Not my private credit.
Mr. JAMES—Were they not drawn by you, accepted
by you, and by you deposited in the bank of Romford
to increase your private account ?—I acknowledge it. My
partner had concurred in it.

Mr. JAMES—What, do you say that your partner in
London knew of it2—l do not suppose ha knew of
every transaction, hut I am sure that he was aware that
one house was made useful to the other.

- Mr. JAMES—Did your partner know, in 1840, that
you were in the habit of drawing bills in your joint
names, and taking credit in Romford for them?—l did
not account to my partner for every transaction, and
therefore cannot speak positively of those bills.
Mr. JAMES —By this mode did you manage to get
credit for an amount of 10,355/. ?—I did not call it
credit, for at the time the balance-sheet was made out it
was placed to my debit.
Mr. JAMES—Have you not drawn your customers'
money out?—The 10,0001. drawn went to the interest of
the bank.

Mr. JAMES—You do not answer my question. Did
you not draw out your customers' cash for yopr own
purposes ?—I did not use it for my private purposes.
Mr. JAMES—The bond was connected with the oil
concern in London, and had nothing to do with the
Romford Bank?—Yes, it had.

Mr. JAMES—Did you never draw that money from
the Romford Bank ?—Term it what you please, then.
Mr. JAMES—Now I must ask you a question in justi-
fication of Mr. Mann. Did he know that you had used
his name for one shilling of this 10,000 L ?—I am very
sorry my recollection does not enable me to say that I
communicated it to Mr. Mann, but I always possessed
his power to manage his cash account.
Mr. JAants—l wish to know now, at once, whether
you represent this money drawn as having been used to
pay the bond?—The principal and interest together
amount to 25,0001.
Mr. JAMES—Have you got no account showing how
you paid the 12,0001. or 15,0000—There is an account
showing it in Mr. Follett's office.
Mr. JAMES—Were you in the habit of going down to
the bank and taking away bills discounted by the bank ?
—They were sometimes given me.
Mr. JAMES—Is there a deficiency on those bills handed
over to the amount of 15,0001. ?—lt is so said in the
Romford books.

Mr. JAMES—Have you not had bills which you never
took back, nor their proceeds either ?—They went
through Glyn's in some shape or other.
Mr. JAMES—Have you not taken those bills for
15,0001., and re-discounted them for your own purposes?
—I will not say with regard to any amount.
Mr. JAMES—Then what was the amount used for
your own purposes 7-1 cannot say.
Mr. JAMES—Do you not know that after the account
for all the bank bills is made up, there is a deficiency
againstyou of 15,7561. lls. 3d. in the bill account alone ?
What have you done with the money ?—lt has been
used for the purposes of trade.
Mr. JAMES—In oil trade ?—Not all. The Romford
Bank has cost in eighteen years above 21,0001. in rent,
clerks' wages, &c.

Mr. JeliEs:—But what has become of the profits ?
They were small. Taking expenses, losses, &c., they
did not exceed 12,0001.

Mr. JAMES-All of which you had ?
Mr. CHAMBERS objected to the mode of questioning
pursued by his Learned Friend Mr. James. The trans-
actions of the bankrupts extended over a period of
18 years, and his client must be thought to be super-
human if he was expected to remember the particular
purposes to which particular sums were applied in all
that time. It was really too hard.
Mr. Commissioner GOULBURN thought the creditors
had a right to the full impression of the bankrupt's me-
mory at present ; and, therefore, he would not restrict
Mr. James in his right of questioning.
Mr. JAMES said all he wanted to know was, in what
particular channel the large sum of money he
had specified had gone ? It had been said by the bank-
rupt that part of it had been applied to the oil trade, but
he (Mr. James) could .prove that not one shilling had
been so applied.
Mr. Commissioner GOULBURN—You have a right to
sift his memory to the utmost.
The bankrupt's examination continued—On the Ist of
July. last, did you not have your attention called to this
deficiency of 15,0001. on bills, and 10,000/. in cash, stand-
ing against you ?—I suppose I had. I want further
time to explain that.
Mr. Jsmus—Do you mean to state now that those
bills have gone in the oil trade P—No ; not one quarter
of them.

Mr. Jigs—Has not Mr. Wilkinson, the solicitor,
taken from you 51 bills of exchange, s hich you, however,
did not give up till they were discovered by search ?
I believe I myself discovered, and gave them to Mr.
Follett.

Mr. JAMES—No, no ; were they not found in a drawer
at Aldgate ?—They must be old and useless bills, then.
Mr. JAMES—Oh, no ; some of them are not yet due ?
—I do not recollect any not due.
Mr. JAMES—Did you not open an account with the
Romford Bank in the joint names of yourself and partner
in the oil trade, and which you hare also overdrawn to
the amount of 2,647/.lls. ? Now, will you swear that your
partner knew anything of such an account ? Mr. Mann
is in Court, so be _careful ?—I cannot speak decisively ;
but I have an impression that he must ha►e known of it.

Mr. JAMES—DiaI he ever draw cheques on the ac-
count ?—I do not know that he ever did.

Mr. JAMES—WiII you swear that you ever told him
that you were overdrawing an account to which he was
liable 2—l do not know that I ever told him.

Mr. JAMES—Then you mean to say that you began a
bank account to which your partner is liable without
telling him so ?—I may have done it.
Mr. JAMES—What capital had you when you com-
menced the Romford Bank ?-20,0221.

Mr. JAMES—And 15,000/. of that was represented
by the bond, for which you were paying interest ?
Many of the joint stock banks--
Mr. JAMES—Don't talk nonsense about joint stock
banks. I will ask Mr. Mann a few questions.
The bankrupt, Mann, in answer to Mr. JA mss, said
that he was partner with Johnson. He never knew that
those cheques and bills were negotiated by Johnson.
He never heard of the joint account opened iv_ their
names at Romford till after the bankruptcy. .7;1 as never
aware that any bills had been placed in the oil trade.
Mr. Commissioner GOULBURIi slought the proper
course at that stage would be to adjourn, as the official
assignee said that a very considerable time would be ne-
cessary to examine the accounts.
Mr. CHAMBERS made application for some allowance
to his client from the estate, which was, however, refused
by the assignees. Mr. Mann, whose conduct they were
satisfied with, was continued in his allowance.
Mr. Commissioner GOULDURN then appointed Monday,
the 4th of November, for the next examination.

THE DUNCOMBE TESTIMONIAL.

A large and respectable meeting of the electors and
inhabitants of the borough of Finsbury was held last
evening, at White Conduit House, to consider the
best way of forwarding the Duncombe Testimonial,
so as especially to mark their gratitude to their inde-
pendent and indefatigable representative, Thomas
Slingsby Duncombe, Esq., M.P.
At seven o'clock, W. NICHOLSON, Esq., the eminent
gin distiller, was called to the chair. He briefly ex-
plained the objects of the meeting, and after highly
extolling the talents and patriotic ci,nduct of Mr.
Duncombe, called upon the meeting to contribute
towards the testimonial.

Mr. R. MOORE (the Secretary) read letters from
gentlemen who, from various reasons, were unable to
attend.

N. HEWETT, Esq., rose to propose the first
resolution, which he supported by an able and
eloquent address. The resolution was to the effect
that they, the electors and inhabitants of the borough
of Finsbury, express their high admiration of the
conduct of Mr. Duncombe, whose energetic and dis-
interested exertions in the House of Commons de-
mand their warmest thanks, and Bomething more.
W. BALLS, Esq., seconded the resolution, which
was supported by J. P. BARNARD, Esq., and carried
unanimously.
W. ROG ERS, Esq., proposed the next reso-
lution, which was seconded by Mr. SAVAGE, sup-
ported by Mr. M‘LEop, and carried unanimously. It
was to the following effect :—" That this meeting
learns with pleasure that a large portion of our coun-
trymen have already originated a subscription for the

purpose of enabling them to present to Mr. Duncombe
a testimonial of public gratitude for his public ser.
vices ; and, as the immediate constituents of that gen:,
tleman, we feel it our duty to be among the forerac!
in promoting and adding value to the projected test!.
monial, by immediately opening subscription-listsi:
Finsbury, and to take steps to render the testimon
worthy of the borough, and the acceptance of its re.
presentative.
Mr. CAMERON 'then addressed the meeting, lull
warmly eulogised the conduct of Mr. Duncombe, a°
detailed the most prominent acts of his life. I"
millions of men subscribed but one penny eacli,,o4
large a sum as 24,0001. might be raised towards t;
testimonial. After earnestly calling upon the Mee, j
ing to support the object of the meeting, he condor.
by moving the next resolution, which had referent
to the collection of the fund, and placing the toll
the hands of those gentlemen who signed the rer'
sition.
*c he
Mr. KNIGHT seconded the resolution. He sall
was a Chartist—(Cheers)—and was one of those VIL
commenced the opposition in that borough ti";
noxious Masters and Servants' Bill, which was,,
strenuously opposed by Mr. Duncombe in the ID'
of Commons.—(Cheers.)

The resolution was carried unanimously.
Mr. BURBIDGE moved that the chairman be re.
quested to act as treasurer to the fund.
Mr. KNIGHT seconded the resolution. He arci,
scribed himself as a working man, and as a stsll,
friend of the working classes. He as warmly es'eli
gised the conduct of Mr. Duncombe as the spesk
who had preceded him.
This resolution was also carried unanimously.
The SECRETARY then read a list of the subscli
tions collected in the room during the eves
towards the testimonial, at the head of which vvas by
name of the Chairman for 261. 55., which, by
close of the meeting, amounted to a considerable I
A Yoh) of thanks was passed unanimously to A;
Rouse for the gratuitous use of the large room
which the meeting was held, and also for the use
committee-rooms, &c.
A vote of thanks was then passed to the Chafe
for his able conduct in the chair, and the Mee'.
separated.