The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-24 00:00:00

were entered at the t Universities were inve ited with
learning
orders. The Universities ought to be the seats of
04,n,.te,g generally, not confieed to earticuler branchee
„Inc:taut', and he hoped to see the day when the improve-
d " he had suggested would be fully carried out.
isiiiiegrsgiewmagot into debt very frequently at the Univer-
weigned them down during all their future
ben,' and he knew instances of clergymen not
ver P able t) pay their debts incurred at the . Uni-
ite:a until an advanced psriod of life. lie
&tenni a Young man who had spent 2,000/. during his
sseeruineen, al; an university; and he dared say
their s nteinhers in that llouie had covered
bu,. father's tablet with bills incurred by them at the
tnidi
illth..vlyorsity dresses
neelayrsities. Ile 31)jected, ton, to the distinctive acade-
hwahieh the different students wore at the
thought there should be no dui-
Iterj,l n in this respect among the students.
r art these circumstances he hoped the
neisruhiloicestelatil
jeltvdoobupylrdopcaoanesde.nt to the Commission of Inquiry
The Honourable Member then
reading his motion, given above, amidst
Hear hear."
h •R. INGLIS complained of the course taken
sfenteo Ei.on. Member for North Lancashire in.
.drag
rn ard the corporations in the U niversines
zata.ner which he had done, without any grounds
ds*e`nteungiven for having done so. Ina pamphlet ad-
ult)
t bill of indictment which the Hon. Member wished
0 brie . -
tithtaaVtil g
against the Universities was pretty generally
The first proposition of the Hon. Member was,
eahs ,e interests of religion and education had not ad-
benne' in the ancient Universities to an extent commen-
Drei`etef
had
their great resource; ; but not one word of
this t ea the Hon. Member brought forward to support
tthektAtument. lie did not mean to deny the right of
n visitatione bat he did not allow the uncon-
ertn`"al right that the Noble Lord at the head
nte e, Government should choose a Member here, aed a
Without
there, as it suited him, to form a Commission,
an •at the supervision of the Lord Chancellor; that mac
semi, right of visitation which he could not
eeentS The Universities had, from the earliest ages, been
Ins t?errd the nurseries of the Church of Englaed,
„eceinUt that respect, therefore, he differed from the pro-
tini,tton laid down by the Hon. Member. He considerel
nagt%Parliareent had no power to interfere in spritual
to
tsra connected with - the Universities. That
teni,Pule,t cnit tined what he would not other-
ever-, designate
_thin mistakes. No oath was
1837. takt,a by the students; it was aboliehed in
e ln lieu of the oath, they were admonished by
Vice-Chancellortlhi to obey the statutee. He warned
city 'ehie Lord (Lord J. Russell), and indeed his saga-
had already discovered it, that the real obj.ct of the
80°4!It•prla z.niber s;•as to facilitate the admission of Dis-
te Into the Universities. It was really a question
1“3 admission ( f Dissenters into those seminaries
Year
'•n
airne,!itg• This was not a new question. In the
enr 'le upon the presentadon of a petition, it had
petiiijt'd three days of discussion in that House. The
feenlP Yorks thoueht, from the Dissenters of t(
aillti ire. They claimed a right cf admission
the collages except one. He denied that right.
ster-"„rgl majority of the colleges had the greatest
nne"T" of their property reseeatively from Protestants.
and p,r,operty was to the Ives of the Protestant Church,
ttua,_ members of the Church of Rome could not
"Fled claim admission. So property con-
n to the uses of the established Episcopal
as;reh could not he reasonably
.enjoycd by
it es nil members of that communion. Again,
see n"3, 'a'd that colleges were necessarily confined to
tasir tutors from amongst their own fellows, and
;in that system was feed to the production of eminence
`lugd')ngst them. But neither the fact as stated, nor the
ion taken from it, was true. The system worked
Inter as an enumeration of the acquirements of the
would show. It was described us a hardship that
teoluters were compelle 1 to remain unmarried; but the
ee
ss, although chosen from the fellows, were not ne-
; I'rtlY to remain unmarried; for, although a tutor
• glit give tip his fellowship,he was not required to re-
bad " s tutorship. Many in teem were married. Ho
un o
had
that morning received a letter from one of them,
Ide°"" a wife and three charming children.—(A laugh.)
fir ~3 now surrounded by his colleagues the members
the i unieereities, and they would be able to give all
er irermation that was required, without any special
etxtraotdinary commission of inquiry. Another charge
lb' Gentleman that the university career
tinn., • woe,
den be summed up in few words, as it consisted in
doing nothing but eating dinners, going to church, and
ureemg books. Now, what did young men go to a
ps,,;'tsitY for* but to read books? Was it not a
01. their duty? Was it not equally a part of
es•anr duty to go to charCh ?—(Hear, hear.) And as for
in "g dinners. that was an inevitable necessity.—(A
nsjPs'h ) The Professional system of education was more
143fPted to the infancy than the maturity of learning.
°re the invention of printing it was almost the only
ma=nsn of diffusing the knowledge of various branches of
-eatieri, and courses which required the illustration of
practical experiments could new only be properly fol-
liZed up by that system. The University of Oxford
L°l' }ears almost abolished the professional system
favour of the tutorial system. That University con-
sisted of four-and-twerny colleges, and each college was
e, aeiversity within itself; and professed to give a'com-
plete course ef education. He felt totally at a loss to
nleuet for the apathy evinced by many of the old
efutTtisof Oxford University, who wire now Meraters
to House, turd in this case he alluded particularly
te the Noble Lord., (Lord John Russell), who should
niieeLe of the first supporters of such institutions, in
the en he regretted to say that the Noble Lord was on
occasion too quiescent. He should, condu-
t -,'Yt say that from his knowledge of these Universities
e.elt it his duty to opens° the motion. He then al-
th"oesd
... to the suerior ualifications of the professors in
th different colleges, ar,d expressel his astonishment
darned
any charge should be brought either against those
enned gentlemen, or against himself.
sb:irs FORTESCUE felt it to be his duty to support
fe rn"tion of the Hon. Member, although he did not
the
nhiniself called upon to agree in all the opinions of
Rev in
Member on the subject. The first changes
nner in those institutions took place in the days of the
eheenrmation and they hal since undergone many
hn-nlges- de admitted that since 1800 the Univerities
the made many advances in the direction of reform; but
roost cursory glance showed that there were many
things eonneeted with them, and with the interests, as
tenneeted with them, of tho students, which celled for
ibrres Without the aid of public opinion, however, it
be useless
in theseles w
sto hopeay change for any great chae in those
11".1°3114 b
tiltutiof general improvement. It
could ill become him to say anything that could reflect
atit the character of their Universities, and he should be
Nay to see anyunfriendly course adopted in relation to
th`rm The Hen. Member then took a review of the
lute; urse
eee of studies marked out for pursuit at our Universi-
teed and commented upon them in relation to their in-
e purp
S oses. With respect to Latin, it was the
°PM
teon of doe Smith that there was a great deal
, i
, Much study y bestowed on it in the Universities.
could not but regret the different changes
Which had been made in their Universities, di-
lie them from their original foundation.
e rejoiced to see that there was, notwithstanding, a
f„',n,wing spirit of reform. in their Universities, particu-
CY in the University of Oxford; and if the State, in
a; v"isd°m• would so direct its attention to the subject
sad
enlarge the basis of education in their Universiies,
D," admit the different classes of the community to a
D„'rkt,icipaiion in its benefits, it would be effecting a great
good,—(Heat.) And this the State might do
tittnh the aid of the immense fun. ds of the Universities
Is ,
out diverting one shilling of those fends from tee
et far which they were originally intended. Of
tely Ecclesiastical Commission he could not but speak in
anima of respect and commendation, as having directed
11 attention in the forest and most unbiassed manner to
they
stale of their Universities, and the objects for which
snit! were originally instituted. The Hoe. Membn•
t'n to d
the work of a German philosopher on the subject
aB ine English Universities, and cited a passage from it
elthe certainty of a reform taking place in them when
er4 xtecessity may demand it, although he (the writer)
that prejudiced against any interference with them in
thenwaYs being attached to their operation as he found
litaattcl concluded by repeating that he felt great sa-
tlete-t;" ener• giving his support to the motion of the Hon.
Mr
nte • IAGAN did not think it necessary to follow the
esn;)en Baronet (Sir R. Inglis) in all the observations
Seel ;I he had made ou this momentous subject; but he
" not but comment on the alsertion of the lion.
rlet, that Raman Catholics ought not to be educated,
Without restraint, in the Universities of this country.
th 9 mutt tell the Hon. Baronet that the University in
tiosfeee
nntry were originally Roman Catholic fount:4l-
- founded by Roman Catholics, and for the educe-
In; of Roman Catholicie Since 1793.4, Roman Cathc-
' the, were admitted into the Dublin University, and
the( were still annually permitted to enter for education
nt but subject to great restrictions. It was calcu-
lated
nztt that more than 1-75th part of the "honours" and
ethluments of the University, to that of the whole, was
s time,
fell to their lot; and since 1794, up to the pre-
deit ales the average number of Roman Catholic ate-
atee Who received education in the University did not
4110:nt to more
hefthan 30 in each year. He could make
Pres.4nee, in t ase of the fellowships for a desire to
Conn an exclusiveness in favour Of a particular
eltrenl but why should Roman Catholics be pre-
et from the emoluments of the scholarships
for thne University ? Scholarships were given
t e benefit of all the students, and they surely
ouln bethe Open tO Oh—(lm, hear.) He knew that
ee;?'tetuaieeness was kept up for the purpose of in-
-Ite an' Catholics to conform to the Protestant religion.
benweeillei refer to the charter of the University of
11 nt". and there was nothing in that charter to prevent
th°e -lan Catholics from being ichnittad to the benefits of
has nstitution. But the system of which he complained
which
which was encouraged and acted on in a country
and there were, or had been until the famine swept
oetnntoned their ranks, upwards of 7 000 000 of Roman
°ilea* T in " of his oh-
sereatio_ he Hon. Baronet, the course
entire 235 stated that a single college in Oxford was an
ant e niversity; but he (Mr. Fagan) knew, however
oriniemight be, that the colleees of the Universities were
then julY Catholic foundations, and he must say that
gres'n Ought to be now, as originally, open for the public
aita (Hear, hear) It was said that the Univer-
ds • "ere intended for the education of young men who
,Slred
ay, let to enter into holy orders; but to that he would
Part op there be other colleges instituted, and forming
ien to' the University, in which young men not intend-
er ttmeent.er into holy orders might receive the benefits
that int" :Or education. He wished particularly to tee
*telt e case of Trinity College, Dublin, and he
Tsten'eu have no objection to its retaining the name of
eststnini3" He was one of those who advocated the
*hen tbmtitt of the provincial colleges in Ireland,
now, keY Were first ietroduced into Ireland, and he
glad cL. "la Place in Parliament, repeated that he was
that
4,,e their int:oduction into that country, believing
tne'Yen, were greatly
Ijauitile cline .n calculated to confer benefit on
classes, &rOteattuit, CAtholio, sad Dissenter,

T II E

all of whom hr hoped would avail themselves of their ad
vent eses. While there were prosincial colleges in
Ulster, Munster, and Connaught ,eihy should Roman
Catholics be excluded from the colle :e in the province cf
Leinster and the city of Dublin? He could only hope
that the House would carry out to its full extent the
reform r f this great University, and that under the sanc-
tion of Vietoria, the intention e.f Elizabeth, the founder,
would be adopted.
Mr. NAPIER characterised the statements which had
been made reseeding Trinity College as totally un-
f )undel. In the first place; the land revenuee of Trinity
College were less than the sum annually voted by the
House for 711eynooth College. He denied that Dissen-
ters. and Cetholies were excluded from the honours and
emoluments of Trinity College. They participated in
all except the fellowships and scholarships, which were
connected with the foundation of the University, and
in Erasmus Smith's professorship. The object in
founding Trinity College was for the purpose of main-
taining the Protestant religion. Up to 1793 Catholics
wore excluded alt rgether, but in that year they were
admitted to take degrees, while they were carefully pre-
vented from becoming lay members of the corporation.
Oat of the land revenues of 30,0001. a year, nearly
4,0001. were open to Catholics. The scholarships to
which it was nwv sought to admit Catholics were not
found• dby Elizabeth, but by Charles the Second. Mr.
O'Connell had given evidence before a Committee of the
House of Commons, that it would not be wise to admit
Catholics to scholarships, 'inasmuch as he considered
they were intended solely for the benefit of Protestants.
The proportion of Catholic to Protestaeit students was
about one-tenth, or the same proportion as the Catholic
weal h arid influence of the country bore to the Protes-
tant. The organ cf the Catholics in this country ad-
mitted that even if the scholarships were thrown open to
the Catholics it would not satisfy the Catholic popula-
tion. They should have Catholic service and Catholic
supervision, and a purely Catholic system of education.
The present system had worked well and harmonizing,
and if it were disturbed by forcing Catholics in on
the foundation of the University, they would be
looke 1 upon as an eggrersive body, and for his part,
if this extreme step were persisted in, he, for one,
should much rather see them entirely excluded. The
lion. and Learned Gentleman then applied himself to
the portion of the motion which advocated an extension
of the interests of religious and useful learning, com-
mensurate with the great resources and high position of
the Universit e-. Ile contended that sufficient progress
had been made and that everything was done which the
requirrments f the age demanded. Every branch of
sound knowledge and useful science was carried out in
Trinity College, and the system of university education
there udopted was without a single blot. The salaries
of the senior fellows did not exceed 1,5001. per annum, and
those bard-worked and indaittions men, the junior id-
iom, who direc'ed their mental energies and physical la-
bours to the cause of education, did not realise more than
6001. or 7001. per annum. No commission was neces-
sary to enable the fellows to marry—for, by an old
statute of St. Patrick, it was provided that priests should
have wive-.—(bear, hear.) The consequence of the
system of tenure of the college lands led to the great
sub-letting and sub-division of lenO, which was
one of the great evils under which the country lay. The
very worst college lands were held urn a lease of fleas
renewable for ever. He could not see, under these cir-
cumetar!ces, of what use a Royal Commission could be
in altering this state cf things. The proper question
was, whether the property held by the University of
Dublin had been properly steadied to the objects of the
founder, and to a useful dissemination of knowledge
throughout Ireland. If it had, then he contended that
not a shadow of a case had heen made out for interfer-
ing with this celebrated institution, and least of all by
means of a Royal Commission.
Mr. SADLEIR. said he thought the Learned Gentle-
man who had just spoken had properly confined his ob•
servatioas to the state of Trinity College, Dublin. He
boefesaed, however, that he was disappointed with the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech, for he had ex
pocted, from the declaration which he once made, that
Christie:rite was his creed, and his country his politics,
that he was about to speak in u liberal strain of the ad-
vautages which would be afferied by that institution, or
that he would have approved, in f let, of the proposition
once made in the Irish House of Commons, by the cele-
brated Claudius Beresford, the kinsman of the Honour-
able Member for Essex, that Trinity College should be
thrown open to the Roman Catholics of Ireland.
As to the relative number of Catholics and Pro.
testants that enter that college, it is right
that the House should remember that whilst there
were only thirty-two Catholics that entered it there
were 350 Protestants. The Hen. end Learned Me niter
had repeated to the Rouse that it was thrown open to all
classes of society in Ireland without distinction of creed,
though it was established fur the benefit of Protestants
only. Now in the eh bate which occurred on this subject
in the session cf 1845, when it was brought forward by
the Hoe. and Gallant Member f Middlesex, it was
stated that according to the terms of the charter granted
to the college, after it had been endowed out of the con-
fiscated eat ate of the' Earl of Desmond, the object of the
institution was to disseininete knowledge end civility
throughout the Irish poor. In those words there was
not the slightest alhision to creed of any kind. He (Mr.
Sadleir) was quite sure in this respect, and with refer-
ence to the principle and policy by which the University
managed its lands, there were strong and cogent reasons
for acceding to that portion of the motion of the
Honourable Member for North Lancashire which re-
lated to Trinity College, Dublin. The subject of the
cultivation of the vast territories owned and culti-
vated by Trinity College had been investigated in a
Committee of the House of Commons, and the evi-
dence there given was strongly condemnatory of the
system cf cultivation pursued by the provost and
fellows. Under the present system, there was not
nearly the amount of nroduca derived from the la Id
which it was capable r f yielding. At this day, when-
ever a piece r f land belonging to the college became va-
cant, instead of listening t the proposal of an intelli-
gent or practically egricultural occupying tenant, the
college would bestow the land on any sir or squire who
was willing to put himself in the false position of being
a middleman, by which he transmitted to the college
about 75 per cent. cf the rent only which he received
from his sub-tenants. MI who were acquainted with
the relations between landlord and tenant in Ireland
knew that the middleman system was ono of the greatest
curses which the country latoured under, andyet here it
was practised by the very heads of the Metropolitan
University. The operation of this system, and the great
disadvantages which resulted from bit, were put under a
strong point r f view, by the report on the subject made
by the board of guardians of a union in the county of
Kerry, where the eel:ego had extensive possessions. He
hoped that that system would be put an end to, and that
some method would be ultimately adopted by which the
many evils he bad adverted to might be obviated, and the
means of the college better enabled to effect the great
objects which it had in view.
Mr. HAMILTON said he was unwilling to render
this debate an exclusively Irish one, and he should,
therefore, content himself by expressing an earnest
wish that these serious evils might be considered and
remedied.
Colonel THOMPSON was bound to thank the Hon.
Member for the Univ. reify of Oxf ntd for bringing up
be fore his eyes those Dissenters of Yorkshire whose case
he had introduced into this debate, because it removed
some considerable difficulty which he should have other-
wise experiente I in determining what vote to Klee on
this occasion. He should have felt a difficulty in sup-
porting the in. Von if he thought he should have been
judged as giving a harsh decision against the University
with ehich it was his boast and his happiness to be con-
nected, and of which he could never speak without the
most friendly sentiments. But there were fl aws even in
that University, and cue was the exclusioa of Dissenters
from all Farticipation in the advantages it gave to the
public. He did believe that that was a point on which,
without the smallest unfriendliness, he was authorised to
say they. must in the end give way, simply because it
was not just, and not in accordance with the events that
were daily taking place in the world. To the Dissenters,
however, he would say, that if they were desirous of ob-
taining the advantages of a collegiate education, the most
likely way to advance their objeet would be to establish a
college of their own. He could not allow one dictum of
the lion. Member for the University of Oxford to pass
without, at all events, expressing his disagreement with it.
The Hon. Gentleman had said that no right existed on
the part of that House of Parliament—meaning thereby
the whole Government of the country, of which that
House was a component part—to interfere with the de-
cisions or doctrines of the church named of England.
That dictum could not be pasted over, because he (Col.
Thompson) knew that it was coet7ary to the opinion of
a large portion at least of the Members on his (the Minis-
terial) side of the House. There were many who be-
lieved that a compact existed between the Church of
England and the State. If the Wesleyans or the Society
of Friends chose to establish an exclusive system of
education, they were at perfect liberty to do so, because
they held no revenues from the State. But he and his
friends maintained that there wee a compact wish the
Church of England; and that it was not from any ab-
stract merit or desert that its revenues were given to it,
but because its doctrines coincided with the opinions of
the great mass of the inhabitants of this country; and if
ever, unhappily, it should coma to pass that the doc-
trines of the Church of England should cease to coin-
chic with the opinions of tho majority of the people,
then he and his friends maintained that there would
exist a right on the part of Parliament to enter into the
question as to the future application of its revenues.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that in addressing the House
on the important subject then under discussion, he felt
very sensibly the great disadvantage of having no per-
sonal experience in respect to those two great Universi-
ties which were mainly the subject of the present mo-
tion. It was, however, a subject upon which he thought
it was necessary (brought before the House es it had
been), that some member of the Government should state
the views which the Government were disposed to take
of it. It was for that purpose that ho had risen to ad-
dress the House. In the first place ho would observe
that he did not think it would be possible for him to
agree to the motion as it was now placed before the
House, combining as it did a great number of questions,
and placing them in a form which had induced his Hon.
Friend the Member for the University of Oxford to say
that the motion constituted a bill of indictment against
the Universities. Now, in whatever way he might view
this subject, be must in the outset declare
proceeding which
the term " indictment" could be applied; nor could
he see any cause for considering that these Universi-
ties were objects of accusation by the majority of that
House. There was another-part of the subjdct likewise
which, in his opinion, ought to be kept totally apart
from the main object and purport of that motion. The
qug:f.n of the admission of Dissenters to the Universi-
ties, important as it was, should not, in his judgment,
be considered together with a question that related to
any improvements in the plan of education that might
be pursued in those Universities. Whether Dissenters
should be admitted to study in the Universities—whe-

S IT N,

ther they shculil be admitted to the honours conferred
by the Universities—and how far these or any other
admissions should extend—these were questions of prin-
ciple which, as the Hon. Member had c srrectly said,
were debated several years ago et great leagth in that
House, on the occasion when his Noble Friend (Lord
Stanley) made an able speech in favour of the admis-
sion of Dissenters t the Universities, supported by rea-
sons which, in his (Lord J. Russell's) opinion, had never
been auswered. It was quite unnecessary t t a,k gentle-
men to sit in commission on a question which was
really one to be settled by Parliament, and on which
the Irish Parliament did clecide, when they allowed that
Roman Cathol:cs should be admitted to degrees in the
University of Dublin. He did not think, therefore, they
should take into consideration the question of the admis-
sion of Dissenters. But when be proceeded to the other
and more important questions, with respect to the edu-
cation which was given in our English Universities—
' approaching that subject with all that care and with all
that respect which ho felt for those Universities, he
mten in the first place say that he did not think there
could be any objection in principle—he did not conceive
that even his Hon. Friend the Member f the University
of Oxford could make any objection in principle—to the
appointment of a Commission to consider the state of
tho.e Universities with regard to the nature of the educa-
tion they imparted. On the subject of precedents for
issuing such a Commission, allusion had already tc el
made to some that were most apposite. A Commission
of Inquiry into the state of the Church of England had,
with all due respect to the Church of England, been
made with the consent of the Archbishops of
that Church. A Commission cf loqairy into
the Scotch Universities had been issued, on
which Commission the principals of same of
the colleges of those Universities were planed.
So also a Commission of Inuiry, generally, into en-
dowed schools for the education of the poorer clas,es,
Ras issued under Lord Brcugbam's Act. All these
were precedents which showed that there was no objec-
tion in principle to the appointment of a Commission on
this subject. Nay, they showed still farther that ihme
who were the leading persons in authority in these Uni-
versities ought not to consider that it was any disparage-
ment to them if a Commission were appointed upon a
subject so important to the people of Great Britain.—
(Hear, hear.) Having thus stated what he thought was
the material principle involved in this question, he
would proceed to consider whether there was any case
—whether there was any ground of reason or of expe-
diency why such a Commission should be appointed
now.—(" Hear, hear," from Colonel Sibthorp, which ex-
cited much laughter.) In considering that question
they must bear in mind the changes which these Uni-
versities had of late years undergone. It was go-
generally agreed, and it must be awe sel by all who
approved of the changes which had taken place,
that the education given in our Universities some 20
years, or even so lanely as 10 years ago, was not adequate
t i the knowle ige and wants of the present day.—(Elear
hear.) It had been stated to him in a letter by a person
engaged in the task of education at Oxford, that some
ten years ago chymistry was entirely neglected, that al-
though honours were conferred in mathematics, mathe-
matics were little attended to, that modern history
scarcely received any attention, and that, even on the
subject of classical education, there existed a great de-
ficiency of attainment. The writer of the letter said :
—" I breve etatel that our studits were alto gat exclusively
dialectical. How limited the range of reading has been
of late is sesu %awl we reflect that mathematics, though
encouraged by the offer of high honour:, nro but litt'e
cvltivated among us; that an acquaintance with the ele-
ments of natural sciences is rare ; that law, though we
cite degrees in that faculty, has long been neglected;
that modern history has never formed part of our sys-
tem; that political economy is Joked upon with
fear and aversion— nay, that the knowledge of
ancient history exhibited by the ab'est students
seldom goes beyond the contents of Hcrodotus and Thu-
cvdides, and the first desada of Livy, with the addition
of a small portion of Tacitus. It is confessed by all that
the art of writing Latin well is possessed by few, and
Greek was never wail written here. But what will per-
haps surprise your Lordship, neither Homer, nor Cicero,
nor Domusthenes, nor Plautus, nor Qaintilian, nor Te-
rence, nor the minor Greek orators, nor Lucretius are
read by any large portion of oven the most diligent young
men; and that it is seldom, indeed, that they are pre-
sented at the public examinations." His correspondent
went on to state, that within the last few years this de-
le.ct has been corrected; that his University was no
longer open to then reproach, that these matters had
been made the subjects of attention and study, and that
examinations had been ordered with respi:ct to them.
nut, art r allowing for all the claims that could ho made
for the improvements introduced into those Universi-
ties, there evidently existed still a very great defect
in the system of education pursued in them, a defect
which must be admitted by all who candidly considered
the sulejecn It was- true that, by the decisions that
had been lately made both at Cambridge and at Ox-
ford, the important subject of modern history
and the other subjects which he had mentioned, had
been admitted as questions for examination, and ;heave
had become subjects of study at the colleges_ ; but then
the question arose how to combine that which had been
hitherto the distinctive character of our Universities—
namely, the study in the colleges by tutorial instruction,
with the instruction by professors who were named and
appointed to teach those important subjects. On this
point those with whom he hal spoken—who had been
ducated at these Universities, and who had taken an
important pert in c ducation there—had stated that
there was a can,ilerable defect still existing, an 1 that
that defect consisted very much in the restrictions which
were placed by the will of the founders, and by the
deeds of endowment of the several colleges- with regard
to the mode of electing to the fellowships of those col-
leges. Unless that defect were entirely removed the
great change introduced at Oxford and Cambridge could
never give the full proof which ought to be expected. It
ought to be expected, from the introduction cf lectures
on modern history, chyrniatry, political economy, that
the young men woull have in the colleges suf-
ficient instruction upon these subjects to enable them
to derive, all the benefit of the lectures they should hear
from the professor. There were two reasons for a de-
ficiency ; one, that the professors could not obtain the
attendance of the young men sufficiently often and with
iufficient continuity of attention to enable them to de-
rive all the benefit they ought ; and, next, that the col-
leges, having been instituted with a view to a mode of
instruction more favourable to classical learning at Ox-
ford, and to mathemat'cal at Cambridge, there were not
in those colleges fellows who were able or inclined, from
their studies, to carry the young men on in the know-
ledge of those parts of learning which the two Universi-
ties, of their own accord, had declared to be necessary
to a good education. The present Fri fessor of Modern
History in the University of Cambridge, Sir James Ste-
phen, as -that gentleman had informed him (Lord John
Russell), could give unly one lecture per week, of one
hour, or an hour-and-a-half, or two hours duration.
Instruction of an hour or an hour-and-a-half, and that
during term time, was not sufficient on so important end
great a subject. It was therefore necessary to combine
that education which was to be given by professors.
according to the system adopted, with the ancient
collegiate manner of teaching which had prevailed in
the Univers ties, and which he (Lord John Russell),
for one, would bo very sorry to see destroyed, or even
diminished.—(Hear, hear.) But, not wishing to in-
troduce anything in the direction of instruction by
lectures beyond what the Universities themselves had
introduced by the steps they hdd taken from time to
time—the last, by the University of Oxford, only within
a few hours—he thought it desirable ti combine that
mode of instruction with the collegiate, which was• the
established mode of instruction in the Universities. Tee
ohztaele was the manner in which, by various Acts, by
the wills of the founders in many instances, follows must
be, taken from a certain family or county ; and there
were other restrictions of the same kind. It ought to
be the object to combine these two educations in such a
way that the follows of colleges should be among the
men who were the bast instructed, not only in classics
and mathematics, but also in various branches of study
—(Hear, hear)—and that they should direct the atten•
tion of the young men, not solely or exclusively to those
branches of study which had hitherto been taught, but
be able to assist them in all the professorial instruction,
which, without the other, would be very much lost.—
(Hear, hear.) There did not appear to be any great
eifficulty in attaining that object, which at the -same
time was ore which could not be attained by the
Universities themselves. It was only in some very
rare instances that they had been able with great pains
to discover that they had power to reform their statutes.
Supposing it desirable to make these changes, was there
any conclusive reason why they should not be attempted?
There did not appear to be any.—(Elear, hear.) The
only reason which could be alleged was, that such re-
spect ought to be paid to the will of the founders that it
ought not to be interfered with even for a great and im-
portant good. That principle could hardly be contended
for by his Hon. Friend the Member for the University
of Oxford, who must allow that the change, on the de-
sirableness of which he (Lord J. Russell) agreed, that
took plat* at the Reformation, was a change setting en-
tirely aside the will and intentions of the founders—
(Hear, hear)—and applying institutions for purposes
akin to the purposes for which they were founded;
though there was an entire diversity in the application
of the funds from that intended by the founders, who, in
many instances, had left those funds for Roman Catholic
purposes. When the lion. Gentleman very placidly ob-
served that the Church of England reformed itself, it was
to be remarked that there was a great deal to he said as
to the reformation of the Church and also of the Uni-
versities; because, if ono looked to the heads of col-
leges, ho would find that a certain master was appointed
by Edward VI.; that in the time of Mary another was-
ter was put in; and, again, in the time of Elizabeth
that master was forcibly ejected, and a new master and a
new head put in his place. His Hon. Friend might call
that the Church of England reforming itself, but, in fact,
it was a very strong interference of the State—(llear)—
and carried out with all the will and determination which
characterised the two sisters, Mary and El zebeth.—
(Hear, hear.) What was there, if a great object were
in view, to prevent interference so far with the wills of
these founders as to enable the colleges to place in the
situation of fellows, and thereby assist in the education
of the youth of these two Universities, the most capable
men whom they could find in each University or else-
where?—(Hear, hear.) In the report of the Scotch
University Commission it was said, with reference to the
University of Aberdeen :
" One objection, which was very strongly urged, was,
that the union of the two independent Universities ne-
cessarily involved a violation of foundation charters and
deeds of endowment, as well as an infringement on
the vested rights of individuate. Considering that
the foundation charters of both Universities
proceed on the narrative of its having been the
object of their founders to promote religion and sound
learning in the north of Scotland, we were not disposed
to attach much importance to this objection as directed
against apt= which was clearly calculated to further
• those ends. We were, moreover, disposed to think that

ale e the rights of present incumbents are preserved
entire such an argument against gislative interference
fur the public good with trusts constitutd hr the pubic
benefit w-s not entitled to any weight."
Ile must observe, however, that the C.,mmisiloners went
on t say, that if the object could be accomplished with-
out interference it would be prole' able; but if the end
for which the 'truth were givea was kept in vie w—pro-
moting religion and sound learning—they held that there
was a right to interfere. So with respect to the univer-
sities uf Ort'ord and Cambridge. Th nigh the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford said the argument
applied to three or four college; only of Oxfori, yet in
some of those which were among the most richly en
doomed there was what in in,Thanical science would be
called a tvas'e of rower to a great erveat, so that with the
most learned persons employed in the education of 3 outh
the object was not attained, owing to the manner in
which the foundation deeds were so literally complied
w.th. How was a remedy tote applied? Smne p.ople
said a Bill ought to be introduced enabling the Univer-
sities and colleges to make the necessary changes. But
it appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) with respect to a
question of this kind, and some others akin to it, that an
inquiry' by a Royal Commission would be eminently ser-
viceable, and would tend tr make the changes in the
Universities more complete and efficien'. It was his
intention, therefore, not to vote for the motion, and he
had to state that it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government to advise her Majesty to issue a Royal
C mansission is inquire into the revenuer and education

of the two Universities. There would have been an ap-
pearance of hostility is issuing a commission of inquiry
ten years ago, when such a proposition was made; bat
if there were persons approving inquiry who belonged to
those Universities, had been educated in them, and re-
tained feelings of regard and reverence for those places
of education, and if the inquiry to be made was to be made
in a friendly spirit, ho could not see that anything but
benefit would result. The inquiries t be instituted
would, he thought, be of the utmost advantage to the
education of the peop!e of this country.—(Hear, hear.)
It was stated that 1,600 young persons were educated at
Oxford. That education might be extended to a touch
greater number. The people of this country, without_
entering into the question of churchmanship and dissent,
had the grc atest interest in seeing that these funds were
applied to the encouragement of sound learning and to the
instruction of the youth at the most moderate rate.—a
(Hear, hear.) Such, he believed, WU in fact the ititea=
tion which animated the f minders of the greater part, it
not the whole of these colleges, When they wets
founded, the gee attest desire prevailed among men et
wealth and property, and among the sovereigns arjd
princes of this realm, to promote education in the largest
sense, according to the best knowledge that could b
procured.—(Hear, heir.) His belief was, that by pro-
inotieg education in the largest sense, combined with the
religion and morality which these great institutions were
sure to maintain in the present day, they would be
adding another security for the maintenance of their in-
stitutionn and be teaching a larger body of the people to
leek to these Universities as places where their sons
might obtain the best eduation that could be attained,
and might be fitted for the purposes of life.—(bear,,
Lear.) Nor wa, ho in the least deterred by the conside-
ration that the Universities had educated the most
eminent men of this country. If young men of talent
were sent to a University they would excel in that place,
and afterwards in Parlieraent and tie councils of their
country. The question was, whether all the e incation
was given to young men during youth that could bo given
to enable them to fulfil " nonly and magnanimously" in
the language of Milton, the offices and duties to which
they might be called. He, therefore, hoped the', while
the House need not come to a decision on the motion, a
Commission, which should be appointed with the view of
aiding and assisting the Univereities in the noble object
of retorm which they bad before them, would be received
by them as a token of the interest which the ,Crown took
in their welfaie, and would be the means of making
them still more useful and still more learned than they
had approved themselves hitherto.—(Cheers.)
Mr. GOULBURN regretted that, however disposed
to go along with the Noble Lard in the commencement
and in m any parts of his speech, his feeling of sedstne•
tion had been greatly diminished by the concluding an-
nouncement that it was intended to advise tee Crown to
issue a Commission of Inquiry into the re venute and
education of the Univerities of Oxford and Cambridge
(Rear, hear.) It was impossible for any man, even
on the other bide of the House. who had a regard for
the honour and interest of the Universities, to agree to
the motion which had given rise to this discussion. The
admissi m of Dissenters to the Universities was a question
to be decided by 'Parliament, and not by a Commission.
He was not prepared to enter on a discussion as to the
legal right of such a Commission, because, if the object
was to benefit the Universities, he was couvinced that
the appointment of a Commission was not the proper
mode.—(Hear, hear.) It was aduaittsd that great changes
bed been effected practically in the Uuis ersities, that
great improvements had been made in the mode of teach-
ing and the extent of knowledge to which the students
were introduced. They had been introduced without
the aid of a Commission.—(Heir, hear.) The efforts
of the Universities would be thwarted, controlled,
and defeated by such a measure. Everything might
be done by the Universities and the Crown, on consul-
tation, and in concurrence, adopting improvements
which might be mutually suggested. The Noble Lord
rejoiced that ten years ago a Commission was not issued;
ho would, ten years hence, rejoice if the pre out measure
was not carried out.—(Hear, They ought to
bear in mind what had been done by the concurrence of
the Crown and the Universities during the last ten
years. Ile was speaking of n Commission which should
carry the complete concurrence of the body into which
it had to inquire. Ho would ask whether the Secretary
of the Home Depertment had not had the Crown and
the authorities of the University concurring when most
valuable amendments of the statutes were submitted to
his consideration on the part of a college of Cambridge?
Why did the Noble Lord adopt a different course of
action? That a great deal had been done within the
last ten years was undisputed and indisputable; the pro-
f...ssors' lecture, were open to all; new branches of study
had been introduced; but, said the Noble Lord, the
time allotted to the professors' lectures was so ex-
tremely short, that it was impossible any progress
could bo made in a particular science. In the
first place, under the new system it was not merely
the Professor of Modern History who was to give lec-
tures iu his own particular branch, but duties of a cor
responding character had been imtosed on other pro-
fessors; and if men were to be instructed in many
branches of knowledge it was impossible to assign to each
that full measure of instruction which it appeared to be
the object of the Noble Lord to give to those who studied
modern his.ory. But was the Noble Lord right as to the
fact with regard to modern history ? Why, he must be
notoriously misinformed, for the fact was that Sir James
Stephen gave threw lectures a week to numerous and
crowded audiences, receiving that tribute of applause to
which his knowledge and talents pre-eminently entitled
him. That was a matt T assuredly on which the
Noble Lord need not think it necessary to send a Com-
mission to Cambridge to inquire into. Bat the Noble
Lord raid ho roust have his Commission, because he
wanted to engraft on the tutors a knowledge of those
sciences now taught by the professors. Ile (Mr. Gout.
burn) did not deny that, having made one great change
in the university system by opening new honours to new
bra,ncheteof learning, therefore some changes of a subor-
dinate nature mightnot also be necessary; but those who
had made the great change were surely competent to
make the minor changes that might be re quisite.—
(lit ar, hear.) The Universities had acted neither ha,tily
nor rashly; but the Noble Lord set up some new theory
of statutes altogether, end stated that the colleges im-
posed a prohibition on the election to fellowships of men
who were competently informed on the several new
branches of education which had been introduced into
the University course. He told the Noble Lord that
there was nut a college in the University of Cambridge
which prescribed a mote of examination by which fel-
lowships were to be obtained, and if the University of its
own accord chess to decide that fellowships should de-
pend on the tripos altogether, it was in their own breasts
to make those the topics of examination, and to base the
granting of fellowships exclusively upon a knowledge of
modern history or bot say, instead of upon mathematics
and classics, as they formerly depended.—(Bear.) Bat
would the Commission have no evil effect? Did the
Noble Lord suppose, when he chose five or six or seven
Commissioners to go down to Cirhieridge with all the
pomp and circumstance with which probably they would
be invested, that their arrival would not at once arrest
all progress of improvement on the part of those who
had hitherto dedicated themselves to the work? Did he
think it possible that those Commissioners could bring
before them the heads of houses without interfering with
the progress cf what was there going on, without pars-
lt zing the efforts of those who were no N labouring in the
cause he wished to advance, and without casting an im-
putation on their conduct and motives, fur that would
inevitably be taken to be the meaning of such an inquiry.
—(clear, hear.) He sincerely trusted that the Noble
Lord would now, as his Government had. done in 1836,
reconsider the proposal he had just announced to the
House. He pretended not now to enter into a discus-
sion with the Noble Lord as to the best mode of edu-
cation to be pursued in the Universities of England;
although he should be sorry, as far as his own feelings
were concerned, that the minds Of young men should
be diverted from that attention to mathematical studied
and classical literature which he believed to be the
foundationof eminence in any future position in which a
person might be placed.—(Hear.) And, though he was
quite prepared to admit the advantage of having ex-
tended that circle of knowledge to the sciences, which
were now to be pliteed on an equal- footing with &as-
sical and mathematical knowledge, yet he did hope that
they would not be pursued to the extent of exterminating
the other, and that the Commission would not go down
imbued with a feeling in favour of those new studies
which should eradicate all taste and affection for the
old, on which he believed the future welfare and emi-
nence of individuals and the prosperity of the country
mainly depended.—,'Cheers.) He did not stop to argue
the legality of issuing the proposed Commission; but he
said if the Noble Lord bad objects in view which ap-
peared t o be deserving the attention of the University,
that there would be no difficulty, without a Commission, of
securing the concurrence of the'University authorities.
If, however, the Noble Lord should attempt by a vio-
lent exercise of authority to send down a Commission,
in itself of doubtful legality—which he and many greet
lawyers believed to be of settled illegality—(Hear)—he
would involve himself and the body whom ho sought to
benefit in a course of contentious hostility, which would
be anything but favourable to the object he profeste I to
have in view. He should therefore content himself on
the present occasion with earnestly expressing his hope
that the Noble Lord would re-consider the decision ho
had expressed to the House, and not place those learned
bodies in the painful situation of coming into coat set
with the Crown, but would rather endeavour, by conci-
liatory approaches to them, and by profiting by their
greater experience than his own iu the mode and con-
duct of education, to facilitate the continuance of those
improvements which had been by then spontaneowaly

began, and which, ho was sure, would be continued by
those who took the lead (at least in the University wieh
which he was connected) with evs:ry disposition t) give
effect to them to the fullest extent. He certainly had not
expscted to have heard a proposit:en of yeas nat. uro from
the Noble Lord on grounds so utterly untenable; and
t‘e could not at all alelit the similarity of the caie with
the uniting of the two Scotch colleges. IF, indee I, the
Noble Lord intended t i act upon that principle, et.d pro-
posed to unite two or three, colleges in a University in
order to diminish what the Noble Lord termed a " use-
less waste of power," he would call down upon himself
the deserved hostility of all who had any regard for the
law, or who viewed the rights and wishes of founders as
worth anything.—(Cheers.) He entirely diffete 1 from
the Noble Lord's proposition of granting this Commis-
sion. He thought it would be more than useless—that
it would be positively pernicious.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SCULLY, amidst led terous calls for a division,
complained that the Noble Lord had not promised to
send a Commission to inquire into the state of Trinity
College, Dublin. Tho It name Catholics of Ireland
formed the great majority of the people, and ought to
hrve a share of the funds which were intended for the
education of the Irish. He should move an amendece tt
to the proposition of the Noble Lord, or must request
the lion. Member for North Lancashire not to with-
draw that portion of his motion which related to Trinity
College.
Mr. HEYWOOD said he looked upon the off r made
by the N solo Lord as so important that he should be
spi•e willing to w:thiraa, his motion.—(Cries of " No,
no 1" and " Divide.") He agreed that it was very inn
portant, to have a Commission sent to Dublin, and should
he happy to support a motion to that effect, but at pre-
sent he begged to withd-aw his own motion.
Mr. R. PALMER, raid, the course which had been
taken rendered it very important that more time should
he given for the fall discussion of this question.—
(" Hear," and " Divide.") The intention of the Govern-
ment had not been announced till half-past ten o'clock,
and the previous course of the debate coup not have
given an idea to those interested in the Universities of
the proposition which the Noble Lord was about to
esalse.—(Hear, hoar.) That praposiion involved ques-
tions not only affecting education in the Universities of
tno greatest unportartae, but also legal "questions of the
greatest importance; and on that =omit he deemed it
recessary that the deb ate should not now close.—(Hear,
hear.) With regard 'to the Commission, he conceived
that it would be, 'ass illegal one. It appeared to
contempia e the very 'thing which King James If. had
atteelpted. The resistance offerel to that movement of
li:trig James by the college to which he belonged ex-
!dna :d their faithfulness to their statutes aid lawe, and
he had no doubt, if a similar visitation were forced on
the Universities, contrary to the law and their statutes,
that it would at this day be mat with a resistance 'such
as it met with then, and on that ground he m)ved that
the debate be now adjournecl.—(E-lear, hear.)
Lard J RUSSELL hoped the House would not object
to an adjournment, for he quite admitted that when he
rose the House had had no ietimation of his intention.
—(Hear, hear.) lie thought the lion. Gentleman was
mistaken in thinking that it was not competent to the
Crown to issue a Commission. Commissioners so ap-
pointed might ask persons to go before them, and the
persons so invited might, if they were willing, go. The
power of forcing persons to produce deeds was possibly
quite another question.—(A laugh.)
Mr. LAW threw out for the consideration of the
Noble Lord, in the presence of the Hon. and Learned
the Attorney and Soliciter-Generels, whether it would
not be p'aeing the Crown in a predicament by forcing on
a reluctant university and on colleges over which they
had no jurisdiction an inquiry against their will and
consent ? The Noble Lord had experienced the lenefit
of proece ling hand in hind with the heads of the Uni-
versities in effecting such reforms as were desirable;
for they had been reformed hitherto, not by the juris-
diction of the Crown, but by the colleges themselves, in-
voking the aid of the Crown. What he should contend
for was this, that, where there was a special visitor of a
college, and that visitor had not failed in his duty. there
was no jurisdiction in the Crown t.) issue a Commission
Inquiry against the will of the parties ; no power,

the CZnntiais;ion wire issued, to enforce the attendance
of witnesses; and, farther, no power to effect a change in
the foundation.—(Hear, hear.) They might just as well
atte net to change the foundation of every charity in
England.—(ficar, hear.) He contended that there was
no power without an Act of Parliament of doing that,
and without that power the affair would be title more
than a farce.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL would not have
desired to trouble the House with any observaions had
it not been for the doubt thrown out by his Hun. and
Learned Friend the Member for Plymouth (Mr. R.
Palmer), which seemed to be participet .d in by the
Recorder (Mr. Law). He. (the Aq rrney-General)
bogged the House t ► understand that it was from no
doubt entertained by his Noble Friend, or by those with
erhos: concurrence he acted with regard to the legality
of the proposed Commission, that he had assented to
the adjournment of the debate. He believed that it pre-
ceded from a simple misconception of the nature and
character of the proposed Commission that doubt was
entertained of its legality by any one. If it hal been an
Executive Commission to enforce an inquiry, to insist
upon the production of documents, to cotnpcl the exami-
nation of witnesses, to alter statutes and make regula-
tions, he concurred with those who thought it would be
illegal, and that they could not attempt to assert any
authority in such a case as the present, unless the Com-
mission were founded upon an Act of Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) But the Noble Lord had not for a single
moment suggested such a Commission of that nature.—
(Hear, hear.) In reference to a remark made by his Hon.
Friend opposite (Mr. H. Pa'mer) that there might be
resistance to the production of evidence, his Noble
Friend had merely said that in that case the Commission
could not insist upon the information revested.—(Hear,
hear.) If any lion. Member really had a doubt of the
legality of a Commission of the kind proposed, he would
remind him of the precedents recently adopted by former
Governments. What was the difference, for instance,
between a Commission such as WAS now proposed for
the purpose of examining- willing wit lessee and docu •
meats willingly produced, and that Commission issued
by the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Tam•
worth to inquire into the constitution of the deans and
chapters of England ?—(llear, hear.) There W 34 also
the case of the Commission which inquired int) the mu •
nicipel corporations of England and Wales. In each of
these cases the object of the Commission was not to
make regulations or enforce opinions, but to collect in-
formation from parties willing to afford it, with the view
of inducing the Legislature te found upon that informa-
tion, if ne3esssry, a future Act of Parliament.—(Rear,
hear.) Upon the information so collected on both these
subjects, the Legislature were ultimately enabled to
found valuable measures ; and it was with the same
view—viz., to facilitate the improvements which were in
progress in the Universities, that the Noble Lord had
suggested the proposed Commission.—(Hear, hear, and
cries of " Divide.")
Mr. BEST maintained that the Universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge had always had peculiar privileges,
and while he had a seat in that House they should con-
tinue to have them.—(laughter.) Yes, in spite of thl
oppos-tion of Hon. Members on the Ministerial benches
who belonged to all sects, all grades, all bodies,
knew not what to call them—religions, he should sup-
port the Universities through thick and thite—(Leugh-
ter.) He should therefore oppose the motion of the
Hue. Member for North Lancashire.
Mr. HENLEY was afraid that the explanation cf the
Attorney-General would not be very consolatory to the
Universities; for he begged the House to bear in mind
what had followed the inquiries into the municipal cor-
porations, and deans and chapters, to which tee Huts.
and Learned Gentleman had referred--e(Hear, hear)—
becawe, if it was the intention of the Government to
follow up this Commission in the same way as those pre-
vious Commissions had been followed up, the learned
bodies connected with the colleges had better be careful
whet information they gave, seeing that the object of
the Commission was likely to be, by a bland coun-
tenance and civil words, to fish out cf them
the means of sending theta t r the right
about when the information was obtained.—(Hear,
heir.) It was very adroit of the Noble Lord is say that
he would separate this inquiry from the question of the
admission of Dissenters into the Universities. It was
as much as to say, "give me the means of inserting the
thin edge of the wedge, and I shall afterwards be able
to achieve the object which Ido not now choose t)
avow."—(Rear, hear.)
Colonel SIB FHORP, after thanking the Hon. Mem-
ber for Kidderminster (Mr. Best) for the manly course
which he promised to pursue in that House, proceeded to
say that the Noble Lord had on this creation adopted an
evasive mode of proceeding similar to that which he
(Colonel Sibthorp) hal taken the liberty of characteriz•
ing in humble- language on the previous night.—(Latigh-
ter.) The Noble Lord was going to issue another Com-
mission—paid or not he did not care. But he knew what
the Commission would b"; it would be self-created as all
Government measures, and it would do no good to the
Universities, whose interests the Noble Lord professed
to have at heart.—(flear, hear.) It was, as be had
said of some others of their measures, a shuftle—another
Ministerial trick.—(gear hear.) He hoped the House
would divide and compel Lion. Members to declare them-
selves upon this subject. These were times in which
they ought to know who were sincere and who were not.
lie had great respect for the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for the University of CambridgeGoul-
bourn) but be hoped ho would forgive him toe saying
that if he and the Peelite section to which he belonged,
bad not supported the present Government, they would
not now have had an opportunity of creating another
dirty Commission.—(Laughter.)
Mr. SCULLY, amidst loud cries,, of "divide," asked
the Noble Lord at the head of the overnment, whetht r
he intended to include Trinity College, Dublin, in the
proposed measure?
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say, that he
did not think that Trinity College could be conveniently
included.
The House then divided on the question of the ad-
journment of the debate, when there appeared—
Ayes, ... 273
Noes
Majority ... —242
The debate was then adjourned.
SIR THOMAS TURTON'S DEFALCATIONS.
Mr. ROEBUCK moved the appointment of a Select
Committee to inquire into the defalcations occurring
during the registrarship of Sir T. Turton, Registrar of
the Supreme Court of Judicature at Bengal, and to re•
port the course which should be adopted in consequence
of those defalcations. There o mid not be two opinions
as to the claims of the sufferers to be indemnified by
somebody or other.—(Hear, hear.) The Committee
would ascertain who that somebody was by inquiring
into the eircumFtances of the appointment of Sir 'l'.
Turton, the persons to whom he ought to have ac-
counted, and where the lathes had been.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE gave his cordial assent to the mo-
tion— (Hear, hear)—and he had no doubt, as on a si-
milar unhappy occasion in 1828, it would be agreed to

by the House without discussion. When the C )mmit-
tee had m :de their report he would state his own opinion
on the subject.—(Hear, h(
Sir J. HOGG said the course adopted by the Right
Hon. Baronet was most fair and judicious. Lie the
Right Hon. Baronet, he should abstain from expressing
his opinion on the subject until the Committee had made
their report.
Motion agreed to.
CHANCERY AND LUNACY FEES.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL moved that the House
go into Committee for the purp se of agreeing to a re-
solution upon which to found a Bill to enable the Lord
High Chancellor of England to authorise the collection
of fees payable in relation to proceedings in the Court of
Chancery, and in lona-y, by means of stamps. It was
considered that, by the means of these stamps much time
and trouble now expend:A in the collection of fees would
be saved.
Mr. HENLEY said the public most justly expect&,
that not only time and trouble would be saved, but that
a considerable amount of the fees themselves, and of the
expense of collecting them woubl be saved.—(Hear.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL had no doubt that
the Bill, once in operation, would enable the Lord
Chancellor to effect the object desired by the Honourable
G•r.ntlemte.—(Hear
The House then went into Committee, and the resolu-

tion was agreed to. A Bill, founded on the resolution
was subsequently brought in and read a first time.
SNVINGS FUND.

On the motion of Mr. SIAANEY, the following Gee-
men were appointed a Select Committee on savings of the
middle and working classes:—Mr. Slaney, Mr. John
Abel Smith, Mr. Lehauehere, Mr. Cardwell, Mr.
Greene, Mr. Ewart, Lord James Stuart, Mr. James
Garth Marshall, Mr. Wilson Patten, Lord Nugent, Mr.
Stafford, Sir Robert Ferguson, Mr. Littleton, Mr. John
Ellis, and Mr. Frederick Peel.
BOROUGH JUSTICES.
Mr. MUNTZ obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
authorise justices of any :borough, having a separate
gaol, to commit assize prisoners to such gaol, and to ex-
tend the jurisdiction of borough jultlees to a'l offences
and matters arising within the borough for which
they act.
WOOD USED IN SHIPBUILDING.
Mr. MITCHELL moved that the Lieuse go into Com-
mittee on this Bill; but, on being requested to postpone
it, aske I the Chancellor of the Exchequer what course
he intended to pureue with reference to it when it should
be proceeded with?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sad he
had taken the utmost pains to obtain accurate inform.-
lion on the subject, and finding that it would be impos-
sible to provide security against frauds in allowing the
drawbacks proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, he was
compelled to say that he mutt oppose the Bill. Ile ad-
mitted that the timber duties were in a very unsatisfac-
tory state, end that his H m. Friend hal most fairly ap-
plied his attention to the subject.—(Hear, hear.)
Viscount JOCELYN hoped tie Hon. Gentleman
would bring forward the Bill on the earliest possible day
A great number of parties were waiting for tba result of
it, to decide whether they should send their ships to be
repaired in the Baltic or have them repaired at home.
The Noble Lord complained that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had not been courteous in replying to a ques-
Lien he had that evening pat to him on this very impor-
tant subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had in
tended no discourtesy towards the Noble Viscount. All
he hal said, when the Noble Lord asked him what le
intended to do in the matter. WAS that the qeestion hid
better be asked when the Hon. Gentleman who had
charge of the Bill should bring it forward.
Sir G. PECIIELL regretted the decision to which the
Government had come upon this Bill.
Mr. HUDSON hoped there would be as little delay as
passible in proceeding with the measure. The announce-
ment e f the Right Hoe. Baronet would canse very great
m trtification to the shipping interest.
Mr. MITCHELL would postpone the Committee on
the Bill till that day fortnight, and he hoped then to
assign reasons tl.at would remove the objections of the
' Right Hon. Baronet.
The Committee was postponed accordingly till that
day fortnight.
I The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Qiarter past Twelve.

PARLIAMEN TAR Y DI VISIONS.

(From the 'Votes and Proceedings if the Home rf Commons )
TUESDAY, APRIL 23.
ENGLISH AN U IRISH UNIVERSITIES.
Motion made, and Question proposed, " That all systems
of academical Education require from time to time some '
mo,-iification, from the change of external circumstances, the
progress of opinion, and the intellectual improvement of the
people:
That in the ancient English and Irish Universities, and
in the Colleges connected with them, the interests of religi-
ous and useful learning have not advanced to an extent
commensurate with the great resources and high position of
those bodies; that collegiate statutes of the fifteenth century
occasional') prohibit the local authorities from introducing
any alterations into voluminous codes, of which a large por-
tion are now obsolete; that better laws are needed to regu.
late the ceremony of matriculation and the granting of
degrees; to dimin'sh the exclusiveness of the University
Libraries; to provide, for a fairer distribution of the rewards
of scientific and literary merit; to extend the permission of
marriage to tutors of colleges; and to facilitate the registra-
tion of electors for the Universities; that additional checks
might be considered with referexce to the continued extra-
vagance of individual students; and that the mode of tenure
of college property ought to be ameliorated, particularly in
Ireland :
" That as it is her Majesty's right and prerogative to
name Visitors and Commissioners to inquire into the ancient
Universities and Colleges of E-igland and Ireland, an humble
Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her
Majesty will be graciously 'leased to issue her Royal Com-
mission of Inquiry into the sate of the Universities and
Colleges of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, with a view to
assist in the adaptation of those important ins itutions to the
requirements of modern times:"—Debate aris.ng, &lotion
made, and Question put, " That the Debate be now ad-
ourncd." The House divided:
teIAJORITY—AYES, 273.
Floyer, John Napier, Joseph
Fordyce, A. D. Newdegate, N.
Forster, M. Newport, Viscount
lertescue, Chichester Nugent, Lord
F,x, W. J. O'Brien, Sir Lucius
French, F. Ogle, S. C.
Frewen, C. 11. Oswald, Alexander
Gasket', J.M. Paget, Lord C.
Gladstone, W. E. Pakington, Sir J.
Goalburn, Henry Palmer, Robert
Grace, 0. D. • Palmerston, Viscount
Graham, Sir James Parker, John
Greenall, Gilbert Pechell, Sir G.
Greene, John Peel,
.Sir Robert
Greene, Thomas Peel, Colonel
Grentell, Charles W. Peel, Frederick
Grey, Sir George Perfect, it.
Grey, Ralph W. Pigott, Francis
G regal], Edward Pilking ton, James
Grosvenor, Earl Pinney, William
Halt, Sir Benjamin Plowden, W. 11.
rlalsey. T. P. Pori al, Melville
Hamilton, G. A. Power, Dr. •
Hatimer, Sir John Price, Sir It
Hardzastle, J. A. Prime, Richard
Harris, Captain Rawdon, Colonel
Hastie, Alexander Renton, J. C.
Mastic, Archibald Repton, G. W. J.
Hatchet!, John Ricardo, Osman
Hawea, B. Rice, E. R.
Hayter, W. G. Richards. Richard
Henley, J. W. Robartes, T. J.
Herbert, Sidney Roebuck, J A.
Hervey, Lord A. Rornilly, Colonel
Heywood, James Romilly, Sir John
Hayworth, Lawrence Russell, Lord John
Ilildyard, R. C. Russell, F. C. li.
Hill, Lord E. SadiairVohn
11111, Lord Marcus Salwey, Colonel
Hobhouse, Sir John Stindars, George
Hodgson, W. N. Scholedrid, Willi=
Hogg, Sir J. W. Scully, Francis
Hollond, Robert Seymer, H. K.
Hood, Sir A. Seymour, Lord
Hope, Alexander Sheridan, R. B.
Hotharn, Lord Sibthorp, Colonel
Howard, C. W. Simeon, John
Howard, P. 11. Slaney, Robert A.
Hudson, George Smith, R. V.
Hughes, W. B. Smith, M. Tucker
Inglis, Sir R. 11. Somerset, Captain
Jerilyn, Earl Somerville. Sir W.
Jervis, Sir John Sotheron, T.
Jocelyn, Viscount Stafford, Augustus
Johnstone, Sir J. Stanford, J. F.
Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Stanton, W. H.
Jones, Captain Stuart, Lord D.
Keating, Robert Stuart, Lord J.
Keogh, William Stuart, 11.
Kershaw, James
Sturt, llenry G.
King, PJ.
Tenison, E. K.
.
Labouchere, Henry Tennant. R. J.
Law, C. E. Thickness°, Ralph .
Lemon' Sir C. Thompson, Colonel
Lennard, T. B. Thornely, T.
Lennox, Lord A. Tollemache, F. J.
Lewis, George C. Townley, R. G.
Lindsay, Colonel Townsheud, Captain
Littleton, E. R. Trelawny, J. S.
Locke, Joseph Trevor, G. R.
Lopes, Sir Ralph Trollope, Sir J.
LOW tiler, Colonel Tuthell, H.
Mackenzie, W. F. Turner, George
Mackie, John Tyrell, Sir J.
M`Naghten, Sir E. Verner, Sir W.
M'Cullagh , W. T. Verney Sir H.
Mahon, O'Gorman Vyse, H.
Mahon, Viscount Waddington, David
Mangles, R. D. Waddington, H. S.
Martin, Samuel Walpole, Spencer
Masterman, John Walter, John
Madieson, Colonel Wellesley, Lord C •
Mania, Fox Willcox, Brodie
Melgund, Viscount Williams, John
Mitchell, T. A. Wilson, James
Monsell, William Wilson, Matthew
Morris, David Wortley, J. S.
Mostyn, E. Wood, Sir Charles
Mullings, J. R. Wyvill, M.
Mundy, William TELLERS.
Murata, G. F. Palmer, Roundell
Naas, Lord Cardwell, Edward

&eland, Sir T. D.
Adair, Hugh E.
Adair, R. A.
Mcock, ThomaS
Alexander, N.
Anderson, Arthur
Armstrong, R. B.
Ashley, Lord
Bailey, Joseph
Baines, H. T.
Baring, H. B.
Baring, Sir F.
Baring, Thomas
Barnard, E. G.
Sass, Thomas
Bateson, T.
Beckett, W.
Bellew, It. AL
Bennet, P.
Beresford, William
Berkeley, C. L.
Bernard, Viscount
Best, John
Birch, Sir T.
Blake, H. J.
Blaketnore, It.
Booth, Sir R. G.
Bouverie, R. P.
' Boyd, John
Boyle, Colonel
Bramston, T'
Brisco,
Brockman, E. D.
Brooke, Lord
Brotherton, J.
Bulkeley, Sir R. B.
Campbell, W. F.
Carew, W. P.
Carter, John B.
Caulfeild, J. H.
Cavendish, G. IL
Cayley, Edward S.
Chat terton, qolonel
Chichester, Lord J.
Childers, J. W.
Cholmeley, Sir H.
Christopher, It.
Christy, Samuel
Clay, James
Clements, Charles
Clifford, 11. XL
Cobbold, J. C.
Cockburn, A. J.
Cocks, T. S.
Codrington, Sir W.
Colebrooke, Sir T.
Coles, H. 13.
Col Vile, C. B.
Corry, 11.
Cowper, W. F.
Currie, Henry
Curteis, H.H.
Da rymple, Captain
Davie, Sir 11,
Dawson, T. V.
Denison, J. E.
D'Eyncourt, C. T.
Dod, J. W.
Drammond, llenry
Duff, George S.
Duff, James
Duncan, George
Duncuft, Jobu
Pandas, Admiral
Dundas, Sir David
Dunne, Colowl
Du Pre, C. G.
East, Sir J.
Ebrington, Lord
Edwards, Henry
Ellice, E., jun.
Ellis, John
Elliot, J. E.
Estcourt, J. B. B.
Evans, J.
Evans, William
Ewart, William
Fagan, William
Farrer, James
Fergus, John
Ferguson, Sir R.
Ferguson, Sir R.

MINORITY—NOES. 31.
Forbes, Wm.
Forester, G. C.
Fox, S. L.
Galway, Viscount
Gwyn, Howel
Ilildyard, T. B. T.
Lascelles, E
Loveden, Pryse
Lygon, General
Wraggart, Sir J.
Miles, P. W. S.
Milner, W. 31.

Baggo, W.
Baldoek, E. 11.
Bankes, G.
Bentinek, Lord IL
Blackstone, W.
Blair, Stephen
Bromley, Robert
Brown, 11.

Osborne, Ralph
Rendlesham, Lord
Smyth, John CL
Stanley, Edward
Talbot, C. R.

Thompson. Aid.
Williamson, Sir 11.

Buck, Lewis W.
Coke, E. K.
Corbally, M. E.
Evelyn, W. J.

TELLINEI.
Lawless, Cecil
llobhouse, T. B.

THE TEA TRADE, APRIL 22.—Last week's de-
liveries of tea in London were not quite en large as those up
to the date of the 15th inst., but they were nevertheless
rather full, being 594,1101 b. The market, has been corn.
partitively inactive.
The merit of our actions consists not in doing ex-
traordinary actions,
but in doing ordinary actions extraordi-
narily well.- Eliza Cook's Journal.
ADVERTISEMENT.j—THE EARL OF ALDBOROUGH
AND HOLLOWAY'S PILLs.—An astounding cure by this miraculous
Medicine, atter every other means had failed. See extract from hi•
Lordship's letter, dated " Villa Messina, Legt,Th
vrn Feb. 21, 1845.
Prcfessor Holloway—sir :1 beg to acquaint you that your pills have ef-
fected a care of a disorder in my liver and stomach which all themes'
eminent of the faculty, at home and all over the continent, had not
been able to effect; nay. not ever the waters of Carlsbad or Ma-
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cure any disease of the liver or stomach.—Sold (also HollowaY's
Cintm.nt) at Professor Holloway's Establishment, 244, Strand, and
by all medicine Vendor,* tllr9ughout the clvilisod world.