The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

in the

the eharge of their duties, and whatever might
success of that Church, its abuses would be
a° longer an imnediment to its
t,.,
progress. An Hon. Gentleman had asked whether they would create the
4stata:slied Church de nor() if it ceased to exist ? He
(Sir Jame., Graham) did not think that was a fair
tjhste rbcyh :which to try the advaitheee of the Protestant
ist There were several institutions which ex-
ed from the earliest time, and which they valued
very
remuch, and which they would not, perhaps,
ate again if they were no longer in existence. But
4'e need not deal with that now, for the Irish Protes-
tant
I'lli:tads vet in existence. They found that
'been brought under. the
Parliament
at the time of the union. He would not
Put that article of the union, to which re-
m h
of been made, higher than the necessityQ! the ease required. Ile would not say that that
Irtiele prohibited all interference with 'the tempo-
rfah
alities of the Protestant Church of Ireland, but it
Wit
iatst'•oletnn consideration that any interference
teraperalities should be an inteference based
It'll the inamtenance and prosperity of the Church.
was on that ground that he and his Noble Friend,
teere parties to the Church Temporalities Act and
t'e Tithe Commutation Act. The greatest exagge-
ratio
1-1 Prevailed out of doors as to the revenues of the
rot
eqara Church. They had been 800,0001. a year,
e (411114 all source; of revenue. They were now re-
the to fi60,000/., and if deductions were made from
iteerege_rn's income, he did not believe that the Hon.
hito--u'r for Sheffield would dispute the fact with
about'thlt the revenues from all sources were now
Wasi 90;000/, certainly under 600,0001. Nothing
Where coinin. On than to have recourse to threats,
skree reason failed, and the Gallant Commodore who
first' on this subject would be quite decided by the
and 'hot fired in Europe. lie had given them wars
I,e„ramours of' wars, and he had given them the
aitee Joinville in the chops of the Channel, and
fet;,B they gave up this question there was no safety
trele 13ritish Empire. That assertion, he thought,
Ireli,grleat injustice to the Roman Catholics of
kali4liih 4t• Ile did not thirds that the accustomed
antsy', and loyalty of the Roman Catho-
Th "alld be found wanting when occasion offered.
in °se threats would not overawe, for notwithstand-
141111t they had coma from one so distinguished for
rearavery as the Gallant Commodore, the best
ice la?f nullifying such danger would be by employ-
Ites'e,e7e Gallant Commodore himself.—(Cheers and
tlat%,:er.) He did not believe there was much
his to be feared if that Gallant Commodore
.did
.t) -‘'Y' not in uttering threats, but in conquering
sewhe
for ler C. Die Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member
Were °rthampton, said that the present Government
°Pin. Unable to do justice on questions involving the
or I,"s and feelings of Roman Catholics, on account
thatt-tie warm feelings of some of their supporters in
eilea °llse. How was that statement to be recon-
to -with the conduct of the Government in reference
hyn4tional education in Ireland, which was opposed
(1.1:11„anY of their supporters in that, House ?
tlatee—, hear)—or with their conduct on a
tlee speeasion towards the Unitarians, whom
The p,suPPorted from a sense of justice alone, .
rariet—g.ht Hon. Gentleman, who had diverged into a
ecteleoY of topics which did not properly belong to the
-tekj, had observed that even for the Church of
ttotc;Latki they had failed to perform their promises,
148 t ,at the measure which they had brought forward
ttq3ear to increase its usefulness, had not issued in
tiollractical benefit. Now he must remind the Hon.
thanilliCe that the borrowing of 60,0001. of capital,
Neel ae security of the ecclesiastical revenue, had
ISO tP',)the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to place from.
'dist ;°,.-°0 additional clergymen in the manufacturing
ke,t's, with an income varying from 1501. to 2001.
to ie4r• When such a great addition had been made
•he Parochial strength of the Established Church,
40147,1ecight the Right Hon. Gentleman wasthe
tilt4tii-,'"t premature in declaring that
key premature had not been attended With any benefit.
4lhoi„ hear.) Now he was quite prepared to do
°lleiinstice to the speech of the Hon. Member for
iuOth:'d in introducing the motion before the House ;
144 d' Must be permitted to say that, although he had
nos very extensive premises, nothing could bed
itrtie-eltisfaetory as the conclusion at which he ba
botoe;'' nppeared to have ransacked all the stores,
eD4riee—Y,of Hansard, but of history generally, in pre-
°Poee'e tnat speech. They had had extracts from
:)!1 in the House of Commons and in the House
-"o4R extracts from history, extracts from ser-
cte'e extracts from pamphlets, extracts from the
eea?gh Review; they had had puffs of auc-
kceietN'peeches in taverns and at dinners, speeches at
re'et,,llall, Mrlr,. Glover's book, Mr. 1111-Neil's
Illontgomery Martin's repeal newspaper,.
,Nro,3,'arl traveller's comments on Ireland; in
''ere'ean the Hon. Gentleman's historical researches
nlearena‘rht to bear upon this subject, and yet, he
olip;etit although nothing could be more ample than
elaies, nothing could be so narrow and incom-
N; as hie conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) He would
to the elat,nte one or two of his expressions. with respect
,A rotestant Church. He said that the marn
11,01:14' °,f that Church was a grievance to the Irish
ih'ore-t'ene said that Europe desired to see Ireland
Eat he from the last remnant of the yoke ; he said
Was prepared to concede at once what it was
Ftori-'e'eas to withhold ; and then: entertai.ning these
°l'ehacTinions he contented himself with moving
‘...0 •
tiep, th Mtnittee of inquiry. Now, as a preliminary
ph ith 'night be intelligible, if the Hon. Gen-
Ott" Were more explicit with reference to
.the
.et Which he had in view in proposing
hghe'tle House should go into Committee..t
ltgitssaeliclf he did not . ask the Iflouseeebeyhilts voteif
heo
tjilever lietaordanspecific pelnantleomiapnro d
before lga.st night
4t
set) the Hon. G
Cam
~atiect, he should have believed that he had
Ore Vie-ery extensive view of what appeared to him
ginnetiltsubject, attended with considerable
qt'th,-;e0ILlt that he had no preconceived opinion as
netly which ought to be applied. tier ere , The Hon.
e. the an s opinion last session was that seven-
rts, of the temporalities of the Irish Church, hay-
lA to all existing interests, should be taken
liloPrie-p"otrntd those' seven-eighths should be transferred,
s ton to their numbers, to the different re_li-
leekPiet:,!ts ill Ireland. He must say, therefore, that
(Ore:el to him, thatthe House could not entertain
tt;ta 4 proposition unless they were prepared to
6
atee
4t t step towards the spoliation of the Pro-
lie ft-` hlrel;in
Ireland.—(hear, hear.) It should
clithtil,argotten that those who were best acquainted
lb', to Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland had de-
in.
refit the ministers of that Church would abso-
la'i tCf„.ne'e the offer of endowment. If that were
to
itt -cgonourable Gentleman's object could not
(;40eci except by depriving the Protes-
t, ea th'eareh of all its revenues, and placing
a: No Position of a voluntary church,. without__
111,.4 lietwment.—(Hear.) To that proposition, if he
ti; Mistaken, the Noble Lord, the Member for
trilqcuefLontion, had declared on a former occa-
liZ,,, h,'lne felt insuperable objections. The ques-
th, Laerll they were then debating was, in reality,
°l'
1.1)0^ not they should go into Committee for
of depriving; the Protestant Church of a
Oote part .
or 'lli not the whole, of its revenues. He did
, o it
,tr 4et; at all necessary to cavil about the terms
A?,iste",e` of union. He was not prepared to deny
tlialgl4e-t'eal fact brought forward by the lion.
the .."3,1. Sheffield, that .INlr. Pitt had considerably
aell'otte 'no fifth article of union, as compared with
tiej ho Fe
adopted by the Irish Parliament,
't:t of tibc'ial€l frankly admit, that he believed the ar-
tlice Maki as now formed, would admit of the_
at, IN' some endowment for the Roman Ca-
-114 w'esthood in Ireland. But without casuistry,
ee°tilicl be unworthy of a deliberative body, lie
litte'otti-eaci that the proposition of depriving
q,13, jestent Church in Ireland of its revenues was
'frettile°risistent with the fifth article as it was
iet,„otat,,e,.(l Some reliance had been placed on the
ort,„'Lltife`l,ee that there was no reference to the tem-
-14 that article of union, and allusion had
t!kai his eet!') Scotland more than once in reference
'4: -tleet• Now he did not consider that the
k.• to 1, %gar) d
voti ,Jo the Was at all analogous. It appeared. to
1111Pri hvery converse of
.the case in point. In
kloe-tty e trine of the union the religion of the.
tIVE tha:, the religion of the State, and the reli-
.ll4-''eatat:"" Majority constituted the religion of the
titei,at the body at the time of the union. In Ire •
144t2a,a,e ti body
of the union the religion of the ini-
teosctlae ‘tt,"e relieion of the State, and the repro-
t °(lY—tile parties to the
rhllel, the religion of the minority.
thetherefore, from the cases being par-
14111Lrse °ll aPPeared to him to be the con-
itteer'relitf• the other. But with respect to the
me relit'
the Church of Scotland and.
of
stiteetsk, of the Church of Ireland a di-
ll' —n"oll was made in the articles
eLel,leh that theyshould be preserved inviolate.
ease tl
iNe aPoe -le aintenance of the Establishment
a -tee pr'e'set
i Ole tO buthiey the same ground ; and with re-
ketttiteet
flt-Pa "' -"-'ngland was bound by the most so-
aref tgements to maintain the Establishment
town, the (4. Sileffi (Hear, hear.). Now, the lion.
re ple,i 4eteh and the Right Hon. Gentle-
thautneion
ge, er for Northampton, had both referred
tlettate. ti.,l\e'en at the time when .the motion for a
Jetted tl e.vas
.brought or
in that
lat ccasion it was said Parliament de-
over, ailee
ef, eY would do their utmost to remove any
mPlaint, and
that . they would grant
tit of .e°ered measure of improvementy and
Lt of t°1(1 that I,o*, roan,, ,an absence of measures for re.be-
l'o 04,1;' Weldi' 'lad marked the present session.
In ?Ire, at, not he consist!, t with that period of
lt Vviv that
1,1 Nib respechte should go into any detailed argu-
eret c-ed b to the measures which had been
41t, tl time Gov •
oreti their. eminent; he would only enu-
t4il on leo In the first place a very important
the tl been mad
ceb., le effect e.in the Irish poor-law, which
—4lltility fro ("' relieving the poorer portion of
111 in oppressive rate which had been