The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 14.
HORSE-RACING PENALTIES' REPEAL BILL.
Mr. GlBSON—Really they could not sit there to
draw distinctions of this kind. The Acts were levelled
against gaming in general, and not against any parti-
cular sport. But that it would be occupying
the time of the House, he would move that this
statute be read by the clerk at the table.
A3revent -c.ltful and exces-
sit•c .tming. There were certain pastimes ana games
0110.4' thnCca r, •- • p.
I. There could be no

u3aCi...ta u~._~r

clout): that thlt Act', which was meant so apply to
gaming, applied also to horse-racing. He thought that
those who supported this Bill in the other House of
Parliament must have been jesting when they called this
Bill at present before the House a "manly sport and a
wholesome pastime Bill." This was an absurd ground for
Right Rev. Prelates to take for supporting the Bill. It
put him in mind of the lines
" Great men may jest with saints, 'tis wit in them,
But with the less foul profanation."
—(Hear, hear.) Qui tam actions it was well known
had been often brought before for small penalties, yet
they never before heard of a gentleman going to that
House, and asking for a Bill of Indemnity.—(Hear, hear.)
There bad been numerous cases in which qui tam actions
had been brought of late years. In 1816, a person
named Hill had been prosecuted; in 1827, a person named
Wilton had brought a qui tam action for gambling against
a person named Taylor. That case was a remakable one.
It had attracted the general attention of the' country.
It had been brought before the House of Lords by writ
of error, yet no one had thought of introducing a Bill of
Indemnity. If the law was not what it ought to be, the
Legislature had no one to thank for it but themselves.
They had invited informers to take upon themselves
the odium and the expense of prosecuting those
cases ' • and they had a right to complain if the
Legislature attempted to deprive them of those vested
rights which it had bestowed upon them. It had been
the policy of the Legislature which had held out to the
informer the advantages which had given rise to these
actions. Was it justice now to interfere to deprive the
informer of his vested interest ?—(Hear, hear.) Would
it not tend to lower the character of the Legislature with
the people ? Would it not be said that all those who had
friends in high stations could suspend the operation of
the law—could have Bills of Indemnity introduced to re-
lease them from the liability to penalties which they had
incurred. In the year 1842 qui tam actions had been brought
under the provisions of this very clause against a person
named Bond—actions of a precisely similar character
to those now under discussion.—(Cheers.) The law
had been allowed to take its course. The plaintiff
had recovered the full amount of the penalties.
There was no insinuation that Bond had per-
mitted unfair play, but merely that he had
offended against this particular statute.—(Hear, hear.)
He did not consider that Bond was so much to blame as
the parties who supported his establishment.—(Cheers.)
He was not so much to blame for the supplying
the demands of those who were supposed to be
raised to elevated situations for the purpose of
setting an example to the people, as those parties
themselves. He felt bound to oppose the passing of
this Bill of Indemnity until he had a resolution passed
pledging the House to appoint a Committee to revise the
laws relating to gambling. The pledge of a single
Member was not sufficient. They had got them now
into a corner, and it would not be right to let them
escape out of their difficulty, until they had pledged
themselves to revise the law generally. He, there-
fore, must press the resolution which he intended
to propose as an amendment to the motion of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to a division.
He would take the liberty of quoting from a Conserva-
tive journal an article on the prosecution of Bond. The
Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from the Times of
Thursday, Dcc. 8, 1842, expressing the satisfac-
tion which the conductors of that journal felt at
the result of the prosecution of Bond, and stating
that the country was not indebted to the Attorney and
Solicitor Generals, nor to the Home Secretary, nor to
the Society for the Prosecution of Vice, for that pro-
secution, as all those authorities seemed to consider that
the Corinthian atmosphere of St. James's was out of
their jurisdiction; they.were indebted for it to an artist of
the name of Smith, and to an Act of the good old
days of Queen Anne.—(Loud cheers.) That showed
that the statute was perfectly well known. Bond had
been ruined and forced to leave,the country. No Bill of
Indemnity had been brought in for him ; no statute had
been passed to prevent the rich from setting a bad ex-
ample to the poor. Judge Blackstone said that gaming
in high life demanded the attention of the magis-
trates ; it was a passion to which every valuable con-
sideration was sacrificed, and which we seemed to have
inherited from our ancestors, the Germans, whom
Tacitus described as bewildered with the spirit of play.
Hon. Members opposite had proposed stringent Acts for
the regulation of public morals, and they could not
now come forward to protect those who had violated
the law.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member said it was

a very common thing to come down to the House
to relieve from penalties parties who had violated exist-
ing statutes. Ile was quite aware that circumstances
had arisen in which it was desirable for the Legislature
to interfere; but, as regarded the case of Mr. Wright,
who prosecuted the clergy for not attending to their
spiritual duties, he believed a more objectionable interfe-
rence had never occurred. The present Lord Chancellor
on that occasion defended the common informer. Ile
wished to take the matter on public principles. They
must decide the question simply upon the grounds
whether it was a case in whicn the Legislature should
take the unusual course of adopting ex post facto legis-
lation. They must pledge themselves to revise the
gaming laws before they discontinued those actions.
They had given no such pledge. All they proposed was
to relieve certain powerful individuals from the operation
of those laws. This was not an obsolete law. It had
been acted upon last year, and even a few days ago, and

Lord Chief Justice Denman had pronounced a judgment
under it not a week past. Penalties from Bond had been
recovered under it not long since. It was impossible to
maintain the plea that had been urged of ignorance of
these laws. They were suspected of not wishing to re-
peal obsolete statutes. How often had magistrates under
obsolete statutes fined and imprisoned poor men, and
yet no one heard of giving the aggrieved party any in-
demnity, or of repealing the statutes under which they
were punished ? lie would read for them extracts from the
Reports of the Inspectors of Prisons.—(Cries of " Oh,
oh.") A man, J. C., stated that he had been sentenced
to pay a fine of one shilling, and 14s. costs, and because
he was unable to pay these sums, he had been in prison
for ten years.—(Hear, hear.) He had been summarily
convicted before two magistrates for not attending
Church on Sundays, and for not showing any reasonable
cause for being absent. He was kept in prison until the
fine was paid. Was there any leniency shown there—
any Bill of Indemnity ? This law was admitted to be an
antiquated law, but the man suffsred.—(Hear, hear.)
What had the Legislature done to abolish or modify
those cruel laws ? Had they shown any disposition to
bring in a Bill on the subject ? In 1839, it appeared
from the same Report that several persons underwent
imprisonment .for trifling violations of the ecclesiastical
law. One underwent 63 days' imprisonment, another
61, a- third 16, a fourth 12, a fifth 17, a sixth 12, a
seventh 26, an eighth 16, a ninth 27, and a tenth three
days' imprisonment—(Hear, .hear)—and when those
people were released they were released on the payment
of the fine and costs. The people believed that that
House did not legislate for them, but for themselves.
They believed that those laws on horse-racing would
not have been altered but that certain Hon. Members
and Noble Lords were not interested in their continu-
ance. They were not altered for the general welfare of
the community—they were obsolete and antiquated laws,
and were something similar to
,those on which the late
State prosecutions in Ireland were founded.—
(Oh, oh.) No, the great bulk of the, people, he
repeated, were not aware that in attending those
meetings they had been guilty of any offence,
against the laws. The people of Ireland saw men high
in station, legislators, ministers, contributing to public
associations, and participating in public demonstrations.
—(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Government prose-
cute the Anti-Corn-law League? They dared not
prosecute the League.—(Hear, hear.) They used these
antiquated statutes and unknown laws to serve their
own purposes, and they had shown no disposition to
administer justice without respect of persons.—(Hear,
hear.) He would force his motion, and he would see
whether gentlemen opposite were prepared to take away
the penalties upon all gambling—whether of the poor
or the rich, or only upon those kinds of gambling
in which their own class was concerned.—(Hear, hear.)
It would be wrong to deny that much had been done to
repeal obnoxious statutes ; and especially in the laws
relating to excise and customs, through the industry and
sagacity of Mr. Deacon Hume; hundreds of Acts of
Parliament had been compresrsO!'intO one small volume.
But when the gentlemen opposite repealed the Acts
inflicting the penalties for'4ffences against the excise
and custom laws, they did not suspend the qui tam
actions. The actions were persevered in, and the penal-
ties were enforced. He was bound to pay this tribute
to a distinguished public servant, Mr. Hume, not only for
his writings on political economy, but for the activity
with which he discharged the duties which had been
officially entrusted to him.—(Hear, hear.) He would
not allow this to be treated as an unimportant question.
(Hear, hear.) Many of the gentlemen who had intro-
duced him into that House were deeply concerned in the
gambling of the turf, but there were also many other of
his constituents who thought that all kinds of betting
were immoral,. and ought to be put down. He
was, therefore, placed in a difficult position ;
but he would take the course which he con-
sidered to be right, without considering what
might please any section of his constituents. For many
of these gentlemen he had a great respect, but if they
were his own brothel*, he would stand up in that House
and resist any proposition for an ex post facto law to re-
lieve people of rank from the consequences of their trans-
gressions. —(Laughter.) He thought he should neglect
his duty if he did not stand up and see that they legis-
lated equally for all classes of her Majesty's subjects.
Before he sat down, he would make an appeal to the
Government, for he presumed that this was a Cabinet
question. It had received the consideration of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and was sanctioned by them in
the House of Lords—at least, none of them
opposed it—and he thought he was entitled
in a matter of such importance as the interference with
proceedings in the courts of law, to have the deliberate
opinion, not only of the Prime Minister, if he were in his
place, but of the law-officers of the Crown. He thought
he was entitled especially to have the opinion of the At-
torney-General as to what he thought was the justice of
the case. when so many others had paid penalties for
similar transgressions of the law. He conceived that
they were entitled to the deliberate • opinion of her Ma-
jesty's Government, whether they approved of a measure
like this, which permitted an ex post facto law to ride
over the ancient enactments of our code. He said that
those who were occupying ;he benches opposite, and to
whom attached the responsibility of administering the
laws of the country, were bound to say whether they
were in favour or not of this sudden and partial altera-
tion of the law.—(Cries of "Hear, hear," and " Oh.") For
it would not, do for them to let this measure piss quietly,
and then pretend to the country that they 4,re not in
favour of gaming—they must not set ur ttat character
without any notice being taken of this measure by them.
He deeply re •etted that at t Hon. Bar ~,net (Sir
R. Peel) was not present on that most iny,..:-.rt:.‘nt occa-
sion.—(Laughter on the Ministerial benches, answered
by cheers from t,11.,,
casion like the present that they wanted the assistance
of n ii.. n like him, who liar? great experience, to guide
them in all their proceedings, and who had also
influence enough with pity to make them
do that which he might ti; ‘). the most proper
and just. He said that :11 ' oeing present on that
occasion the Right Ho. . • het was neglecting his
duty.—(Laughter from cL •• easury benches.) Why
he guided his party , of them opposite followed
him in the most e .?' „mer.—(Great cheering and
uproar.) He cot,' them pass this law, or throw
it out, by his ind: dual dictum.—(Great cheering from
the Opposition, When, therefore, the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet chose to assume such an immense responsibility as
he did in guiding the party which had to make the laws
for the country, surely to allow it to be sup-
posed that. he shrank from his duty from an
aversion to offend the prejudices of his friends, was not
exactly commendable conduct.—(Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted also to observe the absence upon this occasion
of all those Hon. Members who arrogated to themselves
the guardianship of the morals and religion of the
country.—(Cheers.) He did not choose to impute in-
tentions, but he could not refrain from saying, that it
was a remarkable coincidence that upon a question so
important to the morals of the country there should
not be present in the House any of those. Ho-
nourable Members who, when the poor were 'to
be schooled, when they were to be legislated into
all sorts of virtuous and pious habits, were most promi-
nent in that labour.—(Cheers.) Those remarkable coin-
cidences certainly happened to all men—they had hap-
pened to himself sometimes.—(A laugh.) In conclusion
he begged to say, that in his opinion the House ought
not to have been called upon to consider a Manly Sports
Bill, and the liabilities any indulgence in betting on those
sports subjected individuals to; nor the question whether
they ought to protect those who had violated the law to
the injury of those who had not. If the attention of the
House was to be called to the subject at all, it
ought to be to the whole subject—with reference
to the future, and not to the past. And therefore, enter-
taining strongly these opinions, he felt called upon to
move, as an amendment to the motion, " That this House
is of opinion, that if Parliament think fit to interfere for
the purpose of staying legal proceedings which have
been commenced under the sanction and authority of
existing statutes, upon the ground that such statutes
have become either obsolete, or that they ought not to
be enforced, it is incumbent upon the Legislature to
define some rule by which her Majesty's subjects may
be able to ascertain those laws which are considered to
have become obselete, or those to which obedience will
not be required. That a Select Committee be appointed,
to inquire into the existing statutes against gaming of
every kind, and what penalties are enacted by such sta-
tutes, and whether the same, or any and what parts of
such statutes have fallen into desuetude, or ought to be
repealed."

Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had not only been the advocate of one
side in this particular question, but had also been the
advocate of one Hon. Member who wag not pi' sent to
speak for himself. The Hon. Gentleman said that he
had no guarantee that the House, if it consented to this
Bill, would not still sanction the imposition of penalties
on gambling ; thus, persons might hereafter be prose-
cuted for offences under the Act, while persons who had
already offended could be relieved from the conse-
quences of their illegal acts. But it must be recollected
that these offences had been committed inadvertently.
the class of persons who were considered as tribunes of
the people did not deserve the confidence of the people.
He wished all those distinctions which had been created
by obsolete statutes between the rich and the poor ab-
rogated altogether. It should, howeyer, be recollected,
that the public attention had been just directed to the
case of the person imprisoned for not attending church,
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract. The
law under which that person had suffered was-the rem-
nant of a wise and consistent system of legislation—
(Hear)—which had been abrogated by the political an-
cestors of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(lronical
cheers.) It was partly a system by which, after
the poor people had attended the parish church, on the
Sunday, they were permitted to indulge in manly sports
and recreations during the rest of the day. The po-
litical ancestors of lion. Gentlemen opposite had re-
tained the odious part of the law, imposing the penalty, but had abrogated the cheerful part of it. He should
support the Bill.---(Cheers.)
Captain BERKELEY agreed with a great deal of
what
.had fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who introduced this Bill. But he wished the House
would pause before it attempted to legislate on this sub-
ject. The present system of horse-racing was fraught
with dishonesty and trickery. It was not the best horse
that always won. There was a system called PP betting
in existence which had been productive of the most mis-
chievous effects. He thought the better course for the
House to pursue would be to stay for a period the pend-
ing actions, and in the meantime to take the whole
subject of gambling into its consideration. If that course
were pursued he• should be prepared to vote with the
Hon. Gentleman opposite, but sooner than lend himself
in any way to the continuance of the present dishonest
practices in horse-racing he would vote with the Hon.
Member behind him (Mr. Gibson). It was a very com-
mon stying that he who went upon the turf without a
determination to be a rogue was next akin to a fool.—.
(Cheers and laughter.) If the rules of the House would
that this
permit him, he (Captain Berkeley) would move

debate be adjourned, in order that they might proceed
with the debate on Irish affairs.
Mr. M. MILNES thought that Hon. Gentlemen opP0:
site might agree to this Bill, which was one simplf
to
relieve parties from enormous penalties which they bad
unwittingly incurred, and they could still have the Com:
mittee for which the Hon. Member for Manchester had
moved.
Mr. VERNON SMITH did not think a sufficient ease
had been made out for the House of Commons to enter:
tain this question. He did not think that the allegations
,
in the preamble of the Bill had been made out.
thought the proper course the Hon. Gentleman opposi
ite
ought to have pursued, would have been to have mos?
for the production of the Report of the Select Commit"
tee appointed by the other House of Parliament, to ity,
quire into the subject. He thought without this b s .
ficient case had not been made out in favour of those In
whose behalf this Bill had been introduced.
Colonel PEEL could say that he knew that man, t,
those persons conscientiously believed that, in making
bets upon horse-racing, they were committing no afore"'
They believed, and he understood that this belief los
borne out by the opinion of counsel, that bets made
On
the turf were legal. He himself had not been served
~
with any notice of action (he had no doubt that he should
be), but if he were to be summoned to give evidence "!
any the trials, as to what bets he had made, he nu.es
tioned whether a judge would caution him that in giving
such evidence, he was making a case against himse e
He thought the preamble of the Bill had been fully born
out, and he for one could say that he had always cc'''
scientiously believed that bets on the turf were legal.
Mr. HUME said that if the opinion of counsel had
been taken upon this matter, there was no necesso
for this Bill, inasmuch as from what had fallen frct
the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that opinion
was in favour of the legality of the bets. He thought
u
the best plan in this case would be to suspend t
pending actions for three months, in order that the
subject might be well considered. The present
gave power to any person against whom actions ru:
penalties for gambling were brought, to call upOF:
judge to dismiss the case with costs. He did not Op!:
they were in a position to grant this. He thought the
ought to agree to the adjournment of the debate, as P..
thought that on a subject of such importance the presence
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern" 0,
ment was absolutely necessary. This was a gambling
Bill, and indirectly promoted and protected gambline
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that if the
Right Hon. Gentleman looked more closely to the
clauses of the Bill, that provision was express
for the point to which he referred. The operation of
the Act was not to extend beyond the space of three
months, and any proceedings at law would be stayed.
Mr. HUME—Yes, after the lapse of three months.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--Just so. Althoufdi:
by this Bill the pending cases would be discontinued
there was nothing to prevent the actions being brought
afresh unless they were quashed by the Legislat°r_t
When the Bill went into Committee the Hon. Gentlear
must move for the insertion of the word sespend".%
stead of " discontinue," which he apprehended w.,,„
...°we
answer all his purposes.—(Hear.) The Hon. Mewrhe
for Manchester talked about this Bill disregarding:. of
poor, and having reference only to the amusement 0f
the rich. He did not know what particular sectiote,,
the House the Hon. Member meant by "you," or iv:,
they he meant to allude to any particular Member. 1;4
his own part, he (the Attorney. General) would say toy
he had never been behindhand in evincing sYniges
for the poor, or in protecting their privileges. be
was no Hon. Member more ready or willing than le
was to abolish obsolete Acts, through which the pip
might unwittingly have offended against the laws-
hoped the Bill would be allowed to go into Committee
tit
a few words from Mr. C. BERKELEY'
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it ....
Majority
On our admission to the Gallery, we found the iroir:
discussing the propriety of going into Committee oti.tin;
Bill. That discussion having been concluded, the J)"..
was ordered to be committed on Wednesday next. ~,e
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask what vias.,7,l
intention of the Government as to public business. -IA
they intend that the important motion he had brio
forward should be proceeded with that night, or t
other business that had been put upon the pager,es
cially that of the Hon. Member for Montrose, shoal
proceeded with in preference?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention of the
Government to give precedence to the adjourned debit,'
on the Irish question.—(Hear.)
IRELAND.—THE ADJOURNED DEEAT..
Lord LEVESON then rose to address the 0,701.-
He believed that in the speech of the Noble Lino
night those great principles were contained, on hear
alone could be properly governed.—(Hear. hvi
He wished to see liberal principles infused into Ire--„.0
—(Hear)---for it was impossible to deny that the Pe7:,,
of Ireland had been kept up lately by military force.
(Hear.) He hoped they would never continue thee.
vernment by such means.—(Hear, hear.) Had, toi
would ask, the government of Ireland been condor
Std
properly ?—(Hear.) Why the first offices of the St,
had been given to men whose principles and wily;
politics were not congenial to the people of Rebut if
What had been the case at the late trial ? Why, th_,el,,
had been tried before four Protestant judges, by a jury
of twelve Orangemen.—(Hear.) Was it be wonder':
at that the people of Ireland should feel some exasl34l,ll
tion at this ?—(Cheers.) The Established Church °he
not prospered, in consequence, in his opinion, of tap
protection it had received from the State. It did not,.
its (hay if if rp-r-
-people.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that many Per,
sons the education of wr:
sons thought too much of the protection of the Attie
Whoever travelled' through France, Belgium, an lob
North of Germany, must perceive the difference wu't,
existed between those countries and England, owilleb
this exclusive protection. After trespassing so moan
on the time of the House, he could not do better tn_t
conclude with the words of one of the most eloque;
men who ever sat in this House. Mr. Brougham, lholy
Lord- Brougham, cautioned the House to beware
.011,„
they converted discontent into rage ; how they qhel
raged discontent to rage with new weapons. ;two
alone were responsible if, through their orps"
Ireland was torn from the mother country.--(uLleehr the
Mr. B. COCHRANE said he had listened w't-The
greatest pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord:
..„,/
evils which afflicted Ireland had been attributed to 107.
causes ; to the existence of the Established Church,bot,
union, the state of the suffrage, and other sources,
rega
in his opinion, none of them was the real evil. The_ iry
evil they had to deal with, was the great physical u"'",tebe
which existed in the country. The resources 0i sop
country were great, yet the country was, fc'rwith
years, in a state of wretchedness and disaffection. t the
regard to the Church it was universally known tlutott,
Catholic clergy would refuse a provision from the Sow
and at a late meeting of the Roman Catholics of
woe
land, Lord Camoys, who presided at that meeting. _l
reported to have said that he entirely 03ilisci, tb•
in the propriety of the decision come to "I no.
Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. They mild 101 X
thing then, in that direction, for the benefit of Ref the
If the Noble Lord wished to appropriate a part .okoovf
revenues of the Established Church, he did not after
how it could be received by the Roman Catholics' Ile
their late declaration to refuse a State provision- andwas kindly disposed towards the people of Ireland' so.
towards their religion. He was of opinion that,.
perior class of persons ought to be educated for toe
CO'
man Catholic Church in Ireland. The evil of the oily..
try was its misery, and when they considered the Ped it
sical wants which the people of that country en,,,tre-k"
was not to be wondered at that they comP'd not
(Hear, hear.) People in their situation CO
reason ; they could only complain. He hoped, 'oar
fore, that some measure would be introduced tto Olt
borate the social condition of the people. Ttib.oa!,
Gentleman then referred to the report of the "-* d tina
Commission to show the state of the country, "in ors
the greatest benefits would result if the waste lanusgs the
reclaimed.—(Hear, hear.) Another great evil
absentee drain, and while it continued the people that it
land would not cease to complain. It appeared to hin2.,,„,* paid
would be a great benefit if the Lord Lieutenant ofr' joy'. •
was not changed with every change of the id,,,inutialia
Such men as Lord Normanby and the Duke of lb le of,
in former times, who were beloved by the PecToogst
Ireland, ought to have been allowed to remain aweeept
them. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the I e in
trials. He thought this was not a time to WI ghigll
harsh tirades.—(Hear, hear.) A man who stood hist
in the estimation of the people of Ireland had heSioot
convicted of a conspiracy against the State. Ile 00
pretend to say that Mr. O'Connell had not done f
good for his country—that at the commencententh°,ol6..
career he might not have been influenced by high the
rations, but that formed no excuse for his conduct cote,
present time. Manlius, who saved the Ronion.::' fie
was afterwards punished for a conspiracy
taarinst weeps
trusted the people of Ireland would now 9a 11 be,°!
view of the question, and that this conviction wo'•-io tne
great service to the country. He would siT coo&
words of a great judge, that it was not throng 4 on
ing the sides of the Constitution, not by trataPuottaio
the laws of the country, that they could hope to !duct
the results they sought. It was not by such et or
they could enlist the sympathies of othe';eo.)
add to the number of their friends.--(Hedar'frourturth:
They should always feel with the people, an
people, and cheer them on with hopes of the
Member
for
He quite agreed with the Noble Lord, the bter
the City of London, that it would have been Isr,fire hoot
if the proclamation had been issued earlier. roes..
ventured in that House to suggest the adoption keo
cive measures. That observation was met by tfebocf.
sarcasm of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for
a_ ve!!
This was in the month of July, and when P,_,:esty
broke up no one imagined what course her Me.' a!
Government would take. The Right Hon: Gen' 9on
it wa d
at the Head of the Home Department, said
_,,twar
account of the meeting at Clontarf, with its u" even- '
and visible signs, that the proclamation was. this
tually issued. There was nothing aboth, over
in the indictment, the charges in which were spreefutre9.
the space of nine months.—(Hear.) In charges °f !tit
son and conspiracy there should be no room foll'iltuohld
the nature of the crime should be so clear thatA been
might understand it. If meeting after meeting rdoi ff
w held, and men did not know that what they were
go
was illegal, they might ask, in the words of Sera
" Where has this treason been so long concealed said
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell)
andthey should legislate for Ireland, not only on Juhroe)
wise principles, but generously. He (Mr. E. C''enerons
trusted that they would legislate for Ireland in a gever the
spirit; that their future victories would be victories onot.-
affections and sympathies of that noble and L 464
hearted nation Pe
• and that by constant and unr'ThesS,
consideration for their welfare peace and htlf:,te,b•
truth and justice,- religion and charity, might be
fished in Ireland:, NY
Lord;CLE'MgMM,- d listened with much! 5)
the sp,e4dii)fitidt Hon, Baronet (Sir qb

112
25

__ ? ~ ;
L~

~'~

,--;

tee.
(, the

louse
al the

the
Pid
004
tbav
esr
Id be

)f the
ebate

Vile previous evening, but, unfortunately,his sentiment
fbaL concession had reached its utmost limits had gone
rth to the country, and the Irish people believed that
Tl. was in earnest when he made that declaration.te
::`,.!,_Right Honourable Baronet said he deprecated tle_
ii7ulishment of a military Government in Ireland,
,h
unng that in any country it would be atten d with
e most lamentable effects ; but his own words were
Inconsistentto with his professions. It was now the fashion.
at adopt a centralising system. He (Lord Clements) had
sraYs been opposed to that system. In Ireland there
ere ,000 policemen under 277 officers, and the whole
tof this force was under the control of a single individual.
rotti such a system the greatest evils might be expected.
le had the beet authority for asserting that the police
!)f. Ireland resembled a military force, and that it was so
lui fact for all practical purposes. This force was not
on°l4l_,dangerous to the liberty of the country, but it im-
-Z" a heavy burden on the Irish people. In he
e was of Tipperary alone the cost of the police force
ewin-3,lwards of 40,0001. The Right Hon. Baronet de-
hatreo he had no wish to continue the present mill-
mil force in Ireland, but he manifested no disposition
thestever to reduce it. The great number of abuses in
men- nPerannuations tended to. show that the Govern-
tfi did not contemplate any alteration. Considering
et," the Arms Bill of last session was proposed to aid the
haustabulary force of Ireland, he thought they ought to
denveiedsee,n that it was perfectly carried into effect. He
St , nowever, that such had been the case. The. con-
armsolarY officers had not even registered their ow
in; and it was his intention to move for a return
witosr,d_er to show that this statement. was correct. There
beari.o order of the most stringent character from the
toe --en.o_f, the police in Dublin, before there was any Act
th-bu Late the importation of arms into Ireland. Y t
41:1 Police of Dublin anticipated the Act of Parliamente,
el and
authority to search, at the very time that th
114 --e was under discussion in that House.—(Hear, hear.)
410e:doiuld now read to the House what he considered a
A t stressing case, under the operation of the Arms
arms
.Mr. John Hall,' who was licensed. to make and sell
Deff' in Anngier-street, Dublin, died last year, and the
iti've of Dublin took possession of his stock before let-
po it,,of administration were taken out. Gentlemen op-
pe:;,-; might laugh, but let them put themselves in the
• th 'un of the deceased man.—(Laughter.) Let them put
thereselves in the gun-maker's case.—(A laugh.) Let
latte,itput themselves in the widow's case.—(Great
nPoll-iv,r) He would not tire the House with dwelling
have a nardship, with which gentlemen opposite could
the nu sYmpathy.--(Hear, hear.) They had shown in
their se of the evening that they had sympathies for
ailetieswn class, but they had none for a bereaved
them ue oPpressed orphans. But he would now statewl to
the
WEL, lied,,n ease of a gentleman—Colonel
__
teca7r,„,_. Upon to pay a dut of 21. 12s. 6d. fora a license
di,, .yr his own gun into Ireland. But Colonel Hodder
u not .--(think the gun was worth the cost of the license.
114dilefr, bear, and laughter.) Gentlemen would laugh,
it a in•ght 'aught again.—(Renewed laughter.) But was
of
t 4 Aillatter of laughter that the principal provisions .
veraet had been neglected by the officers of. the_ Go-
selvi,--e,llt, the officers of the army, and the police them
la ,-,5 r The Act provided that it should be proclaimed
latevelY county, But in the county which he
lio „ tne honour' to represent, there had been
arretr,Gelatnation(Hear, hear.) The officers of the
deaJ uad not registered their arms, nor had the police
teallepn'--(near, hear.) He could come to the law of
hlgnpve")ll which he would say no more (because an
the 41 .‘was ring on upon the subject) than this—that
gore th ef istress and ejectment required alterationad
("° c0in„4,,4 ally other of which the people of Ireland h
vala_eoi„, - He had himself known cattle of the
:hear 2r,4 to be taken away and sold for a debt of 3/.
"its • 'm"er ) In the case of con-acre, the grievance
4,,ilttikil ore 'serious. The hardship pressed severely
;yea "e poor, and required alteration far more than
hen stioeurt nj: ejectment. He had the misfortune to
h regrett.A Ine poorest part of the population, and 1
t-ev - --, to say that the poorer they were, the more
4 4),nrere
passeVressed.—(llear, hear.) There was hardly
per
on that he did not hear of complaints from the
lleekt cases of the most 9 nt oppression and unjust
that tb on the part of the magistracy. He admitted
114 a Geosuhject of con-acre was one of great difficulty
NI tha vernment to handle. Still it was so great an
T,41 his nt,t s°lllething should be done. He had done all
'No tft:"lver to dissuade the people in his neighbour-
tarity is species of gambling. But food was suclii
to
°l)taiuronAst them that they would run any hazar
1%41,4,1- tle thought it would be very much to the
nva,76e of the people a Ireland if the gentlemen
zifbj,4ProPery there would turn their attention to the
~. er f,.._ ''etl -nf Tn.-acres. As matters now were, it was far
'44ll{pt."l; thane poor man to purchase his potatoes in the
/144.; Ulan to go in debt to possess the doubtful i!d-
!vii, alke,,ef a con-acre. The system was fraught with
'loa. di led to continuous discontent and quarrelling.
Lellerttirtlettlan, when speaking of the poor of Ireland
meth, Y, referred to the Roman Catholic population.
ut pies referred instance he did not mean to do so. He
tali,,„, ,„kadvocate the case of the poor Protestant popu-
:lte 11'0„,-"ese sufferings were equally great as those of
'''llt
yin Catholics. The Protestant poor of the pre-
:4heN. n Ireland were men who had fallen from a state
14 01;1 tlbey Possessed a competence and comfort into a
,74teta ttpuiect misery and distress, in consequence of the
ISt ~,°' legislation which was adopted in respect to
41 the,-"utrY. He alluded to the class who were knows
ifistan Middlemen in former times. He recollected an
ht n which a gentleman who had formerly
a, with h.
nn, I. fin (Lord Clement) on the Grand Nat 1 had fallen into such a state of poverty
kid had wife, who had been educated as a lady,
4414 r 'V
been accustomed to the luxuries of a lady
1 44', Was now obliged to, milk her 'own cows.
L. these -Anslatevils were to be attributed to ill-directed
11,0 t is. t°ll. The passing of one measure alone would
kil medy that state of things. The Legislature,
Vi.kt:krder to effect any good, must be anxiously
tftoful to improve the means, and foster the industry
s 4 4 people. Then, with respect to education, he must
Y th
14 1.41 unless the Government were prepared to adopt
I\p,ulnt thrown out last night by the Hon. Member for tOrford (Mr. Wyse), to establish colleges throughout
thjenntry, for the gentry and middle classes, be thought
Vtolwho were now studying in the national-schools
1,41,7 far outstrip in information and intelligence those
I'llet,e°nsidered themselves far superior to them in rank.
tesiaVvas also another subjeet of complaint ; it was the
lipeetsuu;ott in which many of the parishes were with re-
% ~.. to_ religious instruction. In the parish next to the
as r which he lived the rector was an absentee. It
ka„,stePossible that the curate could do all the duty.im-
-11,0 bete him, and thus many who paid tithes received
te
teed
whatever. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
learnitht, were at fault in the matter. It was by at-
-44 111,° such subjects as those he had mentioned, and
/v, 11147tate prosecutions, that the people of Ireland
`aillsCPille Elttisfied, and peace and tranquillity be es-
)4. vet, in the country.
1/14iat 4°111%1G said that one of the subjects of com-
‘l,,`:Ava. enumerated by the Noble Lord who had just sat
,„"hicl; w.hus the Arms Bill. That was a measure
74ht I,.."eeded no .'
Vindication• but, if it did, he
1;4111der thueo
(Vowed to state ' one fact, viz., that
the laftes,'ste;ed,sylvshtedme,there were only 10,000 stand of
under the system established by
tisti, Arms Bill - of arms re-
. ..re,l there were 120,000 stand
„111• str,_ so much for the alleged grievance of the Arms
-%TtNed to Point on which the main difference of opinion
the side rtist; appeared to be this--that on the oppe-
, e p LT
1, rote- -.come they were willing to do away with
%Juliet,o.Establishment in Ireland, and that Hon.
L'..14. 44e his side were not willing to do so. On the
)1"1:1 kid ' In the course of this debate, much stress had
Olu tiocit a sentiment which fell last session from the
kaartonernrable Baronet the Secretary for the Home
(iiliretsett.,,,‘ Ye referred to the words that concession
Ivhear, C.o s point, and could go no further.-
0 efi the ti.ur, from the Opposition benches.) Now,
thes:"ght Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had
~tnth, and words, it was in reference to the Catholic
iiib.ztli e,,,..n not to the sister country. So, too, had it
, hitill'ate4;,.ed last evening by that Right Hon. Gentle-
eel, words " And he was perfectly right in so using
14,4141 t effectd the declaration would have the most ex
Ithibbeen said llow could it be expected, after all that
the ed to do." end done by Mr. O'Connell, but that he
i,ll,_stablialst_wY with the dignities and emoluments of
ttlici 'eh had hued Church? The emoluments of that
I\l3l, they
wereen reduced, and with no unsparing hand;
steed th_ by
no .
means so great as its enemies
3Nered fre tidy to believe. Nor were those who
ut,sa,rid to °tiubethe Church Establishment in Ireland sub-
i'ishjd. c annoyances and insults which had been
neeti-Pries bat!reh-rates had been abolished, several
lohLtiveo , been reduced, a portion of the tithes had
tieic' ea 0, the other portion was paid by the land-
fill(' were taken as to the rent, and, if that por-
llownet to any off, the gain would be to the landlords
tha.l.4nle to ',..'Dther class whatever.—(Hear, hear.) He
*111j1illse• lut" which was the real question before
ell, had•
o_ was whether the principles of the party
Iv,t,ul beat, the the majority in that House were such as
aa e iti • Lue test f
and . . i,dtb aceorda •0. reason justice—whether they
Nali spirit nee with the enlighteninent of the age
11ltal tted on
~of the British Constitution. Now, it was
444411 Nreeonolit ai,tifd3 that the grievances. which afflicted
"uieb IMPart. - easy or speedy cure; and he believed
IN, he belongle'lcen were of opinion that the party to
ki,:ittlionfo_ d were doing their best to lay the
tift_istry,
~ they cure. But it was asserted by the late
ki'rsitild ' men. usual
b t thi , were of off' hand way, that all the evils
_
ly lenua so, no !flay remedy. He (Mr. Young) did
4414,1 residence r did those who best knew the country
thacti tint, ni it. The t t rominent evils of
11„ min bt be fo„__, . w.ornos p_ D
'tit i In no ``uu in the evidence of Mr. rummond,
Ilbard,. a r,,.a plan had exercised a more sound judg-
it4rm'etrilleLamtoeahre.r, affairs,ni or evinced a sincerer re-
v liet _ the chief J
.4 'That lamented gentleman had. deo-f
'llii.°Ligh'kild secret • evils were a bad administration _
tils Whiet verty, itsaTties working on a mass which,
111,eseet,„ gove,,,__e become reckless. Now the remer-
ttooees, were beat is of late years had designed
.fo
!Illia;i°ll4o3fsr.,teaulti of better administration of justices, an ita-
,l%4,,irtetifrat
the
„oreosa_i_e.
ci,liaeabtuiloaor.y a poor law and an ex-
' Now Could' it be fairly
vas
ttd_o!`t t,%. olzrr'n_t
_kiiovernment had been wanting in
,t4,,lftte ,`", Mistration-Y_°
.t these remedies?—(Hear, hear.) ,
tt,ltted,J,ear, and 21 Justice had been greatly improved
s' 'k 1 urel g • me late Government, he fairly ad-
'%e• .-ry -° lulProved the constabulary force, though
lkwiellt t gTent cost, that cz4: theorees in cost, at it was now one of the most
%\.,,l'd Jobc°llntry owed' The next remedy, the poor-
kt, t' tc, be 0 Russell) to the Noble Lord opposite
11 4e ~, Most ' end he thought that Ireland. ough.t
ikit -milli , grateful to h. raoly s • Ira for it, for he believed It
b,people lilted to the habits and genius of the
!Is "hire• That la
halo eat ever„s._ w was receiving from the present
til s fun that When uPPort and encouragement, and he had
ltilts Nltatund fair" odY their fostering care it had got
i 1 t t Ivor advanta e eVeloPMent, it would produce all
or other 5 of which it was capable. But
qe':ll;ine Wtolliell it 1::::21,13ta.ge; besides its own intrinsic
t .0111._ afford _ _
.ein
forme capable. It was be-
ll, lister and lab ' nucleus other societies, whose pro-
k't% t;:enees, 211,rs would be •
•outitt (....oaread productive of excellent
get° existYenraany agrieultural societies had
ce by Its agency, many others

were about to be formed, and there could be not doubt that
their results would have the happiest effect on the resources
and industry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Then there
was the system of national education-7a measure on
which certainly much difference of opinion had pre •
veiled in that House and throughout the country. That
measure had received the best support from the present
Government of the country, although he was sorry to
say at the expense of some political support,_ and con-
siderable political popularity. They were indebted also
to the present Chief Secretary of Ireland (Lord' Eliot)
for two measures which he knew would confer
great advantages on Ireland—he alluded to the
measures for the improvement of inland navigation,
and the encouragement of the most important branches
of national education.—(Hear, hear.) Of the evils to
which he had adverted, the combination of workmen,
and the existence of secret societies must be looked upon
as the greatest. Hewes ready to admit that these societies
had no direct political object. But though he would admit
this, they were all acquainted how, in that country, by
some insidious means or other, agitation connected itself
with disaffection, from whence sprung, at all times, a
tendency to disturbance. These matters always, some-
how or other, merged in agitation, disaffection,
and disturbance. Taking this view of the consequences
of agitation, it was evidently the duty of Government
to suppress it in every way, and it was on this account
that he rejoiced at the institution of the recent trials.
and the success which attended them. There had been
much forbearance exhibited by the Ministry before in-
stituting these trials, and many persons had blamed
them for it, but he confessed he thought they had exer-
cised a sound discretion. But forbearance must have
its limit, although the grand difficulty was to fix where
that limit should be. It might have been drawn at
one meeting or at another meeting ; but this he
would not hesitate to say, that at whatever time it was
drawn there would have been found plenty of Members
on the other side of the House to mark it with disappro-
bation.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said by the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) that these measures
would not produce permanent tranquillity, and that to Mr..
O'Connell and his friends, and to them alone, was owing
the present peace in Ireland. Now, he begged to say
that that opinion was by no means shared in by men
who lived in Ireland, and who had the very best means
of judging what was desirable for her welfare and ne-
cessary for her peace. It was the opinion of these men,
watching with unceasing anxiety the course of events in
that country, that they owed nothing of good, nothing
of peace, and nothing of tranquillity to Mr. O'Connell,
but rather a sense of danger to them all.—(Hear, hear.)
They thought certainly that Ireland had made great
progress of late years, but that progress was by no
means owing to the causes or the persons pointed out
by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House.
That
.prosperity was mainly owing to the vast
extension of steam navigation. encouraging com-
munication, and developing her natural advantages and
industrial energies to a wonderful degree.—(Cheers.)
But they were told to rely on the popular leaders for
the peace and prosperity of Ireland. True, at various
public meetings Mr. O'Connell had made great promises
on this head. He had said that when the union was re-
pealed there would be universal peace and happiness in
Ireland. Yes, there was to be fixity of tenure, and
every other blessing; whilst on the ruins of the Estab-
lished Church, should be raised the standard of univer-
sal freedom and toleration. He would quote, as a
parallel to the speeches of Mr. O'Connell, one little para-
graph from a man who, like that agitator, had in another
country wielded " the fierce democracy." It ran thus :
" People have by their conduct confounded all their
enemies ; not one has been shot in the struggle; not one
drop of blood has been shed ;—how worthy of the en-
lightened people among whom it rose." Were not these
words identical with those which generally marked the
speeches of Mr. O'Connell ? Undoubtedly they were.
And the words he had quoted were those used by
Robespierre, at the breaking out of that Revolution
which deluged France with blood, and handed over her
people to those fiendish tribunals which had for ever
earned an infamous notoriety to the period in her his-
tory known as the Reign of Terror.—(Hear, hear.)
He was firmly convinced that of the thousands who at-
tended the great meetings at Tara, and other places,
there was not one who was not persuaded that the re-
peal was to be carried by their mere appearance at those
meetings, and the speeches made there. But he was
sure that there was a fund of good sense in the Irish
people that would, now they saw those meetings were
opposed to the Constitution, induce them to refrain from
such proceedings.
Sir G. GREY said, whatever difference of opinion might
exist as to some of the topics that had been introduced
into this debate, whatever difference of opinion might be
found- in that House as to the policy of her Majesty's
,Government with regard to Ireland, and as to the mea-
sures which the present state of that country demanded,
he thought there was one point on which the House
was agreed—there was one point on which no difference
could exist—he meant as to the important crisis under
which the motion of his Noble Friend had been sub-
mitted to the consideration of the House.—(Cries
of "Hear, hear.") It had not been denied by the
Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State,
or by any gentleman who had addressed the House,
that there was deep and wide-spread excitement and
dissatisfaction in the great bulk of the population of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It had not been denied that
Ireland was now occupied by a military force—that it
was held by military occupation.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed,
if any difference of opinion did exist upon this point,
he would say the case had been still stronger put by
the Right Hon. Baronet himself than by his
Noble Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet stated in
distinct and emphatic terms last night, and he would not
ofththeateptnoerrtgioenneyofofhearffaMireajeisntyt'hs
ctitlieesrtiir the accuracy of that statement—that such was
such wkas
atdpomaritnoiofnsth—e
kingdom, that this military
occupation was rendered
necessary' by an attempt to wrest the country by
physical power from the authority of the British
Crown. -Under these circumstances, his Noble Friend
asked the House not for a Select Committee of
inquiry, but, adopting the constitutional Mode usually
taken at such a crisis, he asked the House to consent to
resolve itself into a Committee, by which the whole
state of Ireland might be duly weighed and considered ;

he took this step to enable them to express their sense

of the importance of the crisis which had ar-
rived, and to express their determination to

take such measures as might avert the cala-
mity of Ireland being separated from the British
Crown. And on what grounds, he would ask, did the
Government invite the House to reject the motion of his
Noble Friend? What grounds of hope or encourage-
ment for the future—(Cheers)—were stated by the Right
Hon. Baronet, in his speech of last night, or by the only
other Member of the Government who had addressed the
_ _

House—the Hon. Member who had just sat down ? He
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to
this continued military occupation of any portion of her
Majesty's dominions ; that he stated that he did not
look to that as the permanent remedy for the evils that
afflicted that country, or for the permanent security of
that portion of the empire. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated this; but the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down said that the population of Ire.
land did look to the army for the maintenance
of public peace and security. He would ask, what were
the measures which the Government contemplated ?
What course of policy were they ready to lay before the
House, as the one they were determined to pursue, that
would enable any reasonable man to think, taking the
policy they had hitherto pursued, that it was one likely
to win back the affections of the people of Ireland, which
had been alienated from the Imperial Parliament ?
whether it was one calculated to detach one man from

the ranks of the repeal agitation ?—(Loud cheers.) Ire-
land, it was admitted, was occupied by military force.
There was some confusion as to figures last night, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman elicited a cheer from his

supporters by attempting to show that there had been
but a comparatively small increase in the military force
stationed in Ireland. Why, from the figures laid on
the table of the House, it appeared that on the Ist
of January, 1844, as compared with the Ist of January,
1843, there had been an increase of 7,000 rank and file
—(Loud cheering)—to the army in that country ; yet a
cheer was elicited last night by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, by a statement that there had been no increase in

the army. The Noble Lord on the opposite side (Lord
Stanley), with that great zeal which distinguished him
when he spoke in defence of any Government
of which he happened to be a member,
would probably share the sense of security which
the Government felt from, the display of this large forZe,
provided.and guided by the master hand and the master
mind—(Loud cheers)—and would express his confidence

in the efficiency of the portion of hei Majesty's troops
stationed in Ireland for the maintenance of the public

tranquillity in that country, and to effect, for some time
at least, that security for which the Right Honourable
Gentleman relied upon the army.—(Hear.) The
House must recollect that there had been an
increase of 7,000 men, rank and file, during the last few
months in Ireland in addition to the naval force.—

(Loud cheers)—stationed on the coast—in addition to a
battalion of marines.—(Loud cheers.) He did not find
the slightest fault with the Government for this. In
the state to which Ireland was brought, it was the duty
of the Government to provide such a force.—
(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
_benches.) He

(juke concurred with those Hon, Gentlemen that
in _ the state to which Ireland was reduced

under that Government, of which they were the sup-
porters—(Cheers from the Opposition)—he was quite
free to admit, that in such a state of affairs it was the

duty of the Government to maintain the authority of
the Crown, and the security of the British Empire. But
was this military occupation to be a permanent system ?
If it was not to be a perznanent system what was to be
the change in the policy which had produced this state
of things, what was to be the future course of the Go-
vernment ? On what means did they intend to rely for
the maintenance of the tranquillity of Ireland and the
security of the British Empire ? He would not at the
present moment allude to any of the specific measures
which had been mentioned as being in contemplation.
The Right Hon. Baronet had addressed the House in an
able and elaborate speech, as all his speeches
were, and he was happy to be able to add
his opinion, that it possessed one quality which
he wished his speeches had possessed when
the Rht Hon. Baronet sat on these benches.---(Loud
cheers It possessed the quality of being remarkably
calm and temperate.—(Cheers.) He must do the Right
Hon. Gentleman the credit of saying that, speaking
under the sense of that awful responsibility which rested
upon him as the particular Minister responsible for the
peace of. Ireland, he had in his speech carefully avoided
any expression that could tend to increase the present
irritation or excite angry feelings. He could only say
that he wished that at the time when the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and those with whom he acted, sat on these,
the Opposition benches--(Loud cheers)—he had always
used language as temperate and moderate. But he
feared that the language that those gentlemen had then
used had sunk too deeply into the minds of the Irish
people to be soon forgotten.—(Cheers.) The speech of

the Right Hon. Gentleman consisted. of two parts ; the
first was a defence of the Government against the
charges preferred against it with reference to the re-
cent measures adopted in Ireland. The second part
related to the future policy of the Government with re-
gard to that country. Upon the first of these subjects
he should wish to address, in the first instance, a few
observations to the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman
feeling, probably, that the administration of justice was
a subject in which the House and the country felt a
deep and sensitive interest, and feeling the force of the
observations made in that House and out of it with re-
gard to certain proceedings in the late trials which had
taken place in Ireland, addressed himself, in the first in-
stance, to a defence of the Government with respect to
the exclusion of all Catholics • from the jury by which
the traversers, in the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland,
were lately tried. Upon that subject he was bound to
state, taking up the question at that point at which the
Crown Solicitor found himself in the room and called on
to strike that jury, he was not prepared to say that he,
acting on the part of the Government, could have adopted
any other course.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches. He would say nothing at the present moment
as to the policy of the Government instituting these
prosecutions, which necessarily involved such a result.—
(Loud cheers.) That was a point for future and separate
consideration, but he was prepared to say this, that if,
as seemed admitted, in eight out of ten Roman
Catholics found in a list of forty-eight, one was a
member of the Repeal Association, and if of the re-
maining two one of them, though not a member of the
Association, was stated or believed,at the time to have
signed a requisition, calling one of those multitu•
dinous meetings which was to be held at Tara—
the proceedings of which were to furnish a portion of
the evidence for the prosecution, he was bound to say
that with regard to nine out of the ten the Crown Soli-
citor would not have discharged his duty had he allowed
them to remain on the jury,--(Cheers.) With regard
to the others, the Right Hon. Gentleman stated, and as
he pledged his own word to the fact, he was willing to
give credit to the statement they were believed to be
Protestants, and for reasons known to the -Government,
but which reasons the Right Hon. Gentleman did not
feel called on to disclose, they were struck off the list
quite irrespective of their being Catholics or Protes-
tants. But if this were a statement of facts, what were
they to say of the admission it involved of the state of
Ireland?—(Cheers.) A great State prosecution was in-
stituted after months of deliberation and observation by
the Government, with all the solemnity which must at-
tend such a ptoceeding ; the eyes of all England, Scot-
land, and Europe, being fixed upon it, and it being
one by which the integrity of the empire might
be affected. The trial took place in the metropolis
of a country of which seven-eighths of the inhabitants
were Roman Catholics, and not one Catholic could be
found in the metropolis of that country, whose sympa-
thies were not enlisted on the side of the traversers—on
the side of the men whose crime they were called on to
investigate.—(Loud cheers.) They were not excluded
from the jury because they were Catholics, but because
they were supposed to have feelings in common with
the accused. Such a defence might be a good one for
an attorney in a petty case, but it proved here that the
indictment was not against O'Connell and the other tra-
versers, but against the whole Catholic population of
the country.—(Loud cheering) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman stated that the majesty of the law had been
triumphant, and he gave the Government credit for the
fact, that they were not then asking for military law for
the people, or for a Coercion Act. If they had been
asked for such measures, he should have been
among their opponents. He was, therefore,
bound to give them credit for not taking such a course;
but did not the Right Hon. Gentleman know that under
the forms of law great injustice must be committed ?
Did he not know that the moral effect of a verdict did
not consist in an adherence to the rigid forms of law,
and that there were circumstances in which the moral
effect of a verdict was lost by the apparent partiality of
the tribunal before which the case was tried ?—(Loud
cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had illustrated his
case last night, by reference to some actions which
might be brought against the master of a pack of hounds
for trespass, or the case of an individual against whom
a lay impropriator of tithes might bring an action for
the recovery of the amount of his tithes. He (Sir James
Graham) had asked if such a person could be blamed for
striking off the jury list every person who was a lay
impropriator of tithes. But let him (Sir. George Grey)
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether, if the action
was tried under circumstances in which, notwithstanding
that the defendant had struck off those lay impropria-
tors from the jury list, the jury nevertheless were at
last composed exclusively of lay impropriators—whether
he, for a moment, believed that, however the verdict
might be according to the evidence—however above sus-
picion the jury might be in their indidvidual capacity,
voerrdfiaort fromwould any
withreproach
it ot fh
e wrongtuora doing—thatl
w eiweight
it
ought,that
or be looked on as a fair decision of the case that had
carry
been submitted to them? But he would not stop to
discuss that illustration, or the other case put by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, of a trumpery action of trespass
against a master of hounds. A skilful attorney in such
a case might certainly take every pettifogging advan-
tage—(Cheers)—which his knowledge of the law should
enable him to do, and perhaps he would not do his duty
to his client unless he did so ; but let them remember

that this was a great State trial, and that then they
were engaged in a solemn case of the administration of
criminal justice. The Government was proceeding
against traversers who were for the most part Catholics,
on their trial on a charge of the most important nature,
to be adjudicated upon in a country where party feeling
and religious animosity ran higher than in any other
country on the face of the earth, and yet
the jury who tried them was composed of
men opposed to them in religious opinion, and it might
he supposed diametrically adverse to them in political
creed. Then as to the course which the Government
had pursued with regard to the great meetings which
were held from time to time, ending with the proclama-
tion against the meeting at Clontarf.--(Hear, hear.)
Through a great length of time the Government re-
mained passive spectittors of those meetings.--(Hear.)
The Noble Lord had approved, as no doubt the House
would approve, of the sending troops from time to time
to maintain the public security. But they looked on at
those multitudinous meetings, which the Right Hon.
Gentleman said long before the meeting at Clontarf were
held with military array, and under all the circumstances
which he so forcibly detailed, and which were so calculated
to inspire terror and great alarm—they looked on at those
meetings without issuing a single proclamation to warn
those deluded victims of agitation—(as the Right Hon.
Gentleman styled them)—of the consequences of attend-
ing those meetings.—(Hear, hear.) That conduct on
the part of the Government led them to suppose that,
so long as they preserved the peace unbroken—while
no act of violence was committed—while they kept
within the law—the Government would not interfere

with the meetings.—(Hear, hear.) The people thought
that they were doing everything consistent with the
law.—(Hear, hear.) Such was the course (according to
the Right Hon. Gentleman) up to the eventful week,
beginning on the 6th of October—(Hear, hear)—and
the people thought that nothing else would be done with
respect to the meeting at Clontarf, and those other five
or six meetings which. the Right Hon. Gentleman told
them were announced to be held—(Hear, hear)—
had not, fortunately for the Government, a sort
of military proclamation been transmitted to
London on the 29th of September.—(Loud cheering.)
It was clear that there had been no intention of inter-
fering with that meeting had not what had been called
the military proclamation appeared, containing the
magic words " half distance," muster," and " troops."
—(Cheers and laughter.) The Lard Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland were absent from their posts.
It was clear, therefore, that nothing like any interruption
with this series of meetings had been contemplated, and
that the Clontarf meeting would not have been inter-

rupted had it not been for this dispatch, which had been

sent to the Right Hon. GentlenacZn.

The Right Hon.

Gentleman, it appeared, had immediately summoned to
the Home-office the law officers of the Crown, the Lord
_ _

Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.

That meeting had been held at the Home-office on Mon-
day, and although the Right Hon. Gentleman had not told

them what had taken place at that meeting, he presumed
that there had been discussion, and also some disagree-
ment, for they had come to no decision, but had ad-
journed to Tuesday ; and notwithstanding the serious
objections which many Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had to adjourned debates in the House of Commons,
they had again adjourned that meeting from Tuesday to
Wednesday. Then it appeared that another pro-
clamation had arrived—the amended proclamation,

relating to the Clontarf meeting ; and the- Right .Hon.
Gentleman and the Lord Lieutenant, and Lord Chan-

cellor of Ireland, and the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene-
rals, were employed during the whole of the Tuesday and.
the Wednesday, in comparing the verbal and literal dis-
crepancies between the two proclamations, and whether
the alteration of " troops," into groups," and the sub-
stitution of " ward," for wardens," would not make it
too hazardous for _ them _to attempt to stop the

Clouted meeting.---(Cheers.) If they had been cer-
tain that the repeal proclamation had emanated from
Mr. O'Connell and the Repeal Association, it appeared
that they would have had no hesitation on the subject,
but an amended copy had come over, which, in their
opinion, had rendered it extremely hazardous to in-
terfere with the meeting at Clontarf. The discussion at
the Home-office ended without coming to any decision.
It was determined that the Lord-Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland should proceed to Ireland
on the Thursday. He would / ask why they
had not been instantly sent off if the Govern-
ment had determined on taking any steps with
regard to that meeting ? Why was a moment lost
in making arrangements after it had been determined
to put a stop to the agitation ; and why was there an
instant of delay in warning the people not to attend that
meeting ?—(Cheers.) He did not know whether the
Noble Lord concurred in the strictness with which the

observance of the Wednesday was enforced in another
place.—(Cheers and laughter.) It appeared that if a
Wednesday intervened when an interesting de.
bate was adjourned, that that debate must be ad-
journed over the Wednesday, in order not to
interfere with the usual mode of spending that
day in social enjoyment.—(Cheers and laughter.) On
Thursday it appeared that the Lord Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland had quitted London, but
what had they carried with them.—(Cheers and laugh-
ter.) It might have been supposed that they would
have carried with them a proclamation to have been
issued on the instant of their landing, a proclamation
which had been agreed upon previously by the Minis-
ters of the Crowu assembled at the Home-office, warn-
ing the people of Ireland against attending that meet-
ing.—(Cheers.) They were, however, charged with
no proclamation. No They were only charged with
certain fixed principles upon which said the Right Hon.
.Gentleman, they were desired to act.—(Laughter.) It
appeared flat the Lord Lieutenant and the Chancellor,
charged with these fixed principles—(Cheers and laugh-
ter)—had arrivedin Ireland on the Friday. A Privy