The Sun.
London, England, 1868-05-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1868.

PE,OGRESS OF IMPEACMIENT.

April 11.—During the preceding day General
Lorenzo Thomas had been subjected to a very
trying cross-examination by Mr. Butler. After
the description of his ridiculous interview, in which
he demanded the office from the Secretary of War,
the examination turned on his conversation with
George Washington Karsener, and also with Mr.
Wilkinson, reporter for the New I orb; Tribune.
General Thomas declared that his remarks to Wil-
kinson had been dictated by boast and brag, as he
had no intention of really using force. He had
told Mr. Burleigh, from Dacotah, that he intended
to break down the doors of the War Department,
and Butler asked him if this was also boast and
brag, to which Thomas replied that he then meant
it, and had he found the doors locked, he would
have broken them open. On reflection he saw this
might cause difficulty, and he determined not to use
force. While giving his testimony he was fre-
quently interrupted by Mr. Butler, who repeated
the question, " Are you sure he did not say take
possession," in reference to the President? Also
asking, "Why did you not at first say this, and by
whom were you induced to make this explanation?"
Then he turned sharply to inquire "if he knew
what he was saying, following it up by, " Are you
quite sure you know what you are talking about ?"
Thus it happened that General Thomas came up
this day to correct his evidence given on the 10th.
He said that the President had instructed him
to take charge, not possession, of the War Office.
He admitted having called Karsener a liar,'
but denied having said of Stanton, "We
will have that fellow out, if it sinks the
ship." Butler then asked him, "Do you
now intend to take possession of the office of
Secretary of War ?" And to this General Thomas,
with much decision, replied, " I do." The proceed-
ings of this day excited interest, as Lieutenant-
General Sherman was to be examined, and a con-
siderable number of strangers were attracted, among
whom as usual was Mr. Thornton. It had been
reported that the Managers wished to speak, espe-
cially Thaddeus Stevens, and the proceedings
opened by a motion on their part to amend the rules
of the trial, so that any of the Managers or counsel
who desired to do so could speak on the final argu-
ment, the restriction to two closing speeches on each
side being removed. Lieutenant-General Sherman,
who was dressed in uniform, testified that he had
arrived in Washington on December 8, on Indian
business, and that during the two months he re-
mained he had several interviews with the President
relating to Secretary Stanton. the President's
counsel then attempted to extract from the witness
what transpired at these interviews, and a scene of
wrangling and dispute ensued, the Managers ob-
jecting to every question. To each attempt to ex-
tract what the President had said, Mr. Butler
objected, declaring that the Senate could not re-
ceive the evidence of a third party as to the Presi-
dent's intentions. Mr. Evarts quoted a passage
from Butler's previous speech, in which th;mt
Manager maintained the right of the prosecution to
bring in Mr. Burleigh's evidence to prove the
existence of a conspiracy between the President and
General Thomas to obtain the War Office even by
force. Mr. Butler had then asserted that the
Senate was a law unto itself, and on such
a tribunal the ordinary rules on evidence were not
binding. Mr. Bingham objected to any declara-
tions of the President on matters not involved in
this issue, not made at the times when the Mana-
gers themselves had called them out. After an
argument between the Managers and the Pre-
sident's counsel, the Senate, on the vote being put,
declined to receive the testimony. The evidence
then proceeded, and Mr. Stanbery asked Sherman
to state what occurred on the day after Grant
yielded up the War Office to Stanton at the inter-
view on the 14th February between the witness
and Andrew Johnson, Grant being present ? Ob-
jection was immediately made to this, and the
Chief Justice, although considering the question
admissible, said he would take the opinion of the
Senate. Mr. Stanbery stated these conversations
showed the animus of the President, a vital point
to the defence. So far was the President from in-
tending to select a tool for the War Office, he Lad
first named General Grant, and afterwards General
Sherman, as could be proved by the witness. In
pthePresident
s il\dleannta gdeerssi
rerda sit on g
ptehre presumption
rin
an
u nla
‘that tlae
t
through the appointment of General Thomas, the
defence is justified in demanding the benefit of the
ogspresumptionfehhtecresm.uacTnhhateonptiraat
elkaisaei
dt Andrew
ateshr.eGtieo
l
natlide
office,
ean
but
teerrhi
euel
ya nhaas tdkoe
ddtake
na
cettrl
informed him of his purpose, which was so to place
Stanton that he would be driven into the courts of
law. To this Butler replied that the President,
of course strove to get the best
dheesciroiunlgd a tool,
Naturally he would take Grant or Sher-
man ; failing them, General 11. Thomas ; failing
him he would go down, working lower and lower,
till he got to the level of Lorenzo Thomas. But
this was no proof that the President did not find a
tool in Thomas because he did not find a tool in
Sherman.
clofatvheersdaetfieonncsew,c,oituh sldipluertminanevtidhee ncethe
President's prose-
cution
equalaper rightcorre s
pto o putcorrespondents
n t
sin a
ne
d reporters.e
v,
id
had an equal
The withvote of the Senate was 28 against allowing the
nce
talks his
question, to 23 for it. In the minority were, as a
limattercan s ,
among
oc course, swe,
h,
oaml the
great
sDemocrats,urpri
se wand s le2xcßiteedpubby-
askedfinding i f the
the name
President o f
had
Sumner.
offeredT he iu i
witness
lN
taryship of War, ad interim, and in spiteotfheßlteticherere'
Butler's
objection,
o
objection, the question was put, and General Sher-
man
in
ffionce,J athneuaprryes2idsethatahnadd3mOtand,
made him
while
Stantonreplied
the offer. As Sherman's examination proceeded
wast
Mr. Butler interrupted so frequently that the day
was wasted in haggling over the questions, and call-
ing the roll of the Senate. The objections of the
Managers were generally sustained, but the counsel,
when the examination was resumed, brought up the
point of the question in another form. An alter-
cation occurred between Mr.• Stanbery and Mr.
Butler, the latter having declared that by these
questions the counsel were trifling with the Senate
to delay the trial. Mr. Stanbery scorned the
intimation ; Mr. Butler himself had so constantly
renewed his questions when the objections of the
President's counsel were sustained that the defence
had got weary of objecting. The day was exhausted
by the counsel putting and the Senate over-ruling
questions until Mr. Stanbery stated that his side
was not prepared, under such circumstances, further
to question the witness, and the trial was adjourned
to Monday.

April 13.—The first business was the considera-
tion of the Manager's motion to withdraw the re-
striction to the number of speeches on the final
argument. General Butler announced that he did
not desire to speak, but Thaddeus Stevens said he
did. The President's counsel had no objection to
the time being extended, but there was a debate
whether all the Managers were to have the privilege
of making closing speeches after the President's
counsel had finished. This startled the Senate, who
decided, in view of this prospect, to lay the subject
on the table by a large majority, so the rule stands
unchanged, each side being limited to two speeches
at the close. The first question put to General
Sherman, whose examination was resumed, was—
" After the restoration of Mr. Stanton to office, did
you form au opinion whether the good of the ser-
vice required a Secretary of War other than Mr.
Stanton ; and if so, did you communicate that
opinion to the President?" This was at once
objected to, and the lawyers again.went at it dis-
cussing the subject with their usual bitterness, and
reproducing the same arguments. " The President's
counsel complained it was unfair in the Senate to
allow the Managers to bring forward testimony in
proof of the President's unlawful intent, and
refuse the right to them to prodUce evidence of his
intent. The question, however, was pronounced
inadmissible by 35 to 15. Senator Reverdy John-
son then put the question—" Did you, at any time,
and when, before the President gave the order
for the removal of Mr. Stanton as Secretary of
War, advise the President to appoint some other
person than Mr. Stanton ?" But Senator Drake ob-

j,Tting,.the question was declared inadmissible by 32
to 18, whereupon General Sherman left the stand,
and the clerk of the Supreme Court of the District
of Columbia, named Return Jonathan Miggs,
took his place. Ile testified to the affidavit fur the
arrest of General Thomas made by Mr. Stanton in
that Court, and the warrant upon it issued Feb.
22, but to these General Butler o')jected. The
Chief Justice decided the inadmissibility, and the
Senate sustained him by 33 to 17, and while Mr.
Miggs was giving evidence the Democratic Sena-
tors determined to make another effort to get
General Sherman's testimony admitted. For this
purpose Senator Reverdy Johnson asked that Gen.
Sherman be recalled, and then submitted the fol-
lowing question :—" When the President tendered
to you the office of Secretary of War ad interim
on the 25th day of January, 1868, and on the 31st
of the same month and year, did he, at the very
time of making such tender, state to you what his
pui.pose in so doing was?" Of course the question
was objected to, but the Senate by a vote of 26 to
22 determined that it should be put, thus reversing
the decision of the preceding day. The witness
answered " He did," and overcoming the constant
objections raised by the Managers, Reverdy John-
son continued the examination. lie asked, " What
did the President state his purpose was ?" a ques-
tion also sustained by the Senate, after fierce dis-
cussion, in which Senators, lawyers, and the Chief
Justice took part, by 26 to 24. The witness
stated :
" The President told me that the relations between him-
self and Mr. Stanton, and between Mr. Stanton and
other members of the Cabinet, were such that he could
not execute the duties of the office which he filled as Pre-
sident of the United States without making provision ad
interim for the office of Secretary of War, and that lie had
the right under the law, and that his purpose was to have
the office administered in the interests of the army and of
the country, and ho offered me the office in that view; he
did not state to mo then that his purpose was to bring it
into the courts directly, but for the purpose of having the
office administered properly in the interests of the country
—of the whole country. (Sensation in court.) I asked
him why the lawyers could not make a case, and not
bring mo as an army officer into the controversy. His
answer was that it was found impossible, or that a case
could not ba made up ; but said he, 'lf wo could bring
the case into the courts, it would not stand for an hour.'"
Mr. Butler at this point made a vigorous attempt
to arrest further testimony. Rising he moved down
the central aisle, and while all eyes were fixed upon

him said :--
"When the witness was on the stand on Saturday this
question was asked of him t that interview what
conversation took place between the President and you in
relation to the removal of Mr. Stanton ?' That question
was objected to, and after argument the Senate solemnly
decided that it should not be put. That was exactly the
same question as this. Then other proceedings were had ;
and after considerable delay the counsel for the President
got up and asked permission to recall this witness this
morning. The Senate gave that permission. This morn-
ing they recalled the witness, and put to him such ques-
tions as they pleased. Then the witness was sent away,
and then one of the judges decided to put a question to
satisfy his own mind. Of course, he was not acting as
counsel for the President —that cannot be supposed."

Reverdy Johnson rose and asked what the Hon.
Manager meant—to which Mr. Butler replied,
" Precisely what I say ; that it cannot be supposed
that the Senator was acting for the President." Mr.
Johnson turned to the Chief Justice, and with
great indignation exclaimed, " Mr. Chief Justice, if
the honourable Manager means to impute that in
anything I have done in this trial I have been
acting as counsel, or in the spirit of counsel, he does
not know the man of whom he speaks. lam here
to discharge a duty, and that duty I propose to dis-
charge. I know the law as well as he does."
Butler saw that he had made a mistake in having
roused the opposition of the Senate, as the member
of their body thus challenged was one held in high
esteem, and whose opinion on a point of law carried
great weight. Quailing before the indignation he
had excited, he attempted to explain stating that
he meant nothing wrong, and was far from feeling
any desire to cast an imputation on Mr. Johnson,
and in this apology he was aided by Mr. Bingham,
when Reverdy Johnson declared himself satisfied,
and the witness continued his testimony without
further interruption. _ _

"At the first interview with the President nothing
definite occurred ; at the second, however, the President
made the point to which I referred. It was the consti-
tutionality of the Tenure-of-Office Bill which ho seemed
desirous of having decided when he said, If it could be
brought before the Supremo Court properly, it would not
stand half an hour.' He also professed that if Mr. Stanton
would simply resign, although it was against my interest,
against my desire, and against my personal wishes and
official wishes, I might be willing to undertake to administer
the office ad interim. Supposing that the point was yielded,
I said to him, Suppose Mr. Stanton will not yield?' He
answered, Oh, he will make no opposition. You present
the order, and he will retire.' I expressed my doubt, and
ho remarked, ' I know him better than you do ; he is
cowardly.' (Laughter in court.) I then begged to be
excused from an answer. I gave the subject more reflec-
tion, and gave my final answer in writing."

Being asked by Senator llenderson whether the Pre-
sident expressed to him a determination to remove
Stanton from office, Gen. Sherman answered, " If
removal by force be meant, he never conveyed to
my mind such au impression, but he did most un-
mistakably say that he would have no more inter-
course with him in the relations of President and
Secretary of War;" and to another Senator's ques-
tion he added, "I inquired, supposing Mr. Stanton
does not yield, what then was to be done?" " Oh,"
said the President, " there is no necessity for con-
sidering that question ; on the presentation of an
order he will retire." General Sherman was then
asked if he advised the President as to the legality
of an ad interim appointment, but this was over-
ruled, and at this point his important testimony
closed. Return J. Miggs was recalled to prove the
docket entries in the suit above referred to between
Stanton and Thomas, and the trial was adjourned,
the President's friends being considerably elated
at having, after so protracted a contest, got Ge-
neral Sherman's testimony before the court, through
Senator B,everdyJohnson's opportune interposition.

April 14.—Senator Sumner brought up the mo-
tion of the Managers in reference to limiting the
final arguments that, unless otherwise ordered, the
other Managers and counsel who did not speak
might print and file their remarks at any time on
the closing argument. Senator Conness objected,
and the order had to lie over one day under the rules.
Mr. Everts announced that since last adjournment
Mr. Stanbery had been suddenly taken ill and pre-
vented from attendance, and as it was impossible
for them to go on they desired an adjournment. In
reply to Senator Drake, he said that the President's
counsel were not in a position to employ the time
till Mr. Stanbery recovered in submitting docu-
mentary evidence, not understanding the proper
nature and condition of the proofs. The court
under these circumstances adjourned till the next
day, Senators Sumner and Pomeroy alone voting
against it.
.April 15.—Mr. Stanbery, being still unwell, could
not attend, and the President's counsel occupied
the day by giving in documentary evidence. The
first paper was the nomination of Thomas E. Ewing
to be Secretary of War, sent to the Senate on the
22d February at the same time that the ad interim
appointment of General Thomas was announced to
the Chamber. A discussion took place over the

next, which was the President's message in reply
to the resolution of censure adopted by the Senate
in secret session on that day. Counsel argued that
the censure resolution being admitted as evidence,
the message in reply should also be received. To
this Mr. Butler replied that it was not till four
days after the resolution that the message had been
sent. Mr. Evarts called up the Private Secretary of
the President, who testified to having carried the
message to the Chamber on Saturday, the 22d
February, but finding the Senate had adjourned he
returned on Monday and delivered it. Mr. EvartE
considered he had Um proved that the resolution of
censure and the message were simultaneous, and
Mr. Butler's statement incorrect. The Chief Jus-
tice decided that the message was inadmissible, and

notwithstanding Mr. Evart,"s arguments, adhered to
this ruling. A list of precedents was then given in
proof of the practice of removing Cabinet and other
officers without the consent of the Senate, and even
during the session of that body by Presidents of the
United States, and certificates from heads of de-

partmeuts, showing similar removals of subordinate
officers, were also admitted after a strenuous objec-
tion, which the Senate in each case defeated by a

large majority. There was little to excite interest
during this day, except.the short and snappish im-
promptu speeches of Mr. Butler, and on one occa-
sion rather a sharp reply from Mr. Curtis.
April 16.—Mr. Stanbery was still absent, but
Mr. Evarts said the defence would proceed without
him. Mr. Sumner moved to admit all evidence
offered—defeated by '22 to 11. Walter S. Cox, a
lawyer of Georgetown, being placed on the stand,
stated that he was sent for, February 22, arriving
at the White House at 5 p.m. Here he was inter-
rupted by the managers, and after a long argument
the Senate decided he should proceed by a majority
of 29 to 21. At the interview the President told
Mr. Cox of his desire to test the constitutionality of
the Act by proceedings, and requested hitn to consult
with Mr. Stanbery, who had been too busy to
attend to the matter. They concluded that the
plan was for General Thomas to apply for a writ of
habeas corpus when sent to gaol by the criminal
court of the district, and of this Mr. Stanbery ap-
proved. Witness then tried to have Thomas
cim-
mitted to prison, but Mr. Stantou's counsel aske 1
for a
/postponement, and Chief Justice Cartter
granted his discharge, the witness moving for it in
the exi.ectation that he would thus force his com-
mittal. lie applied next day to the district attorney
to sign information in the nature of a quo warranto,
which he declined to do unless authorised by the At-
torney-General. Nothing more wasdonein the matter
than informing Mr. Stanton of the opinion. Being
cross-examined by Mr. Butler, he said that he con-
sidered himself as counsel for the President, but ap-
peared before Judge Cartter as counsel for General
Thomas, and did not tell the court or the opposing
counsel in the court that his purpose was to get the
case in train to test the constitutionality of the
Tenure-of-Office Law, but supposed that they
divined the object. Joseph Bradley, senior, was
the advising counsel for General 'Thomas. The
papers which he prepared to obtain a quo wen canto
were returned to him a few days ago by Mr.
Stanbery, with a verbal message for himself and
Mr. Merrick to use them at their discretion.
He had ' never received direct authority from
the Attorney-General or the President to use
tilem. Mr. Thomas was discharged from cus-
tody on motion of the President's counsel. It.
T. Merrick, a lawyer of Washington, was next
placed on the stand. Both he and the previous
witness had been counsel for Thomas in the suit
brought by Mr. Stanton, and he stated what his
action had been on the 22d February. He was
proceeding to inform the court that the President
had sent for him at five o'clock in the afternoon,
when Butler cried " Stop, stop ! I object to any-
thing the President might have said after five p.in."
on which there was considerable laughter in the
galleries, and some of the members had the bad
taste to appear amused at the improper insinuation.
I%lr. Merrick went on to say that the A ttorney-
General had told the witness, in the presence of the
President, to see if he could carry up tha case
to the Supreme Court on a writ of habeas corpus, and
a few hours afterwards wrote the Attorney-General
a note on. the subject. On Monday he communi-
cate 1 the result of his investigation to the Presi-
dent's counsel, Mr. Cox, and they agreed to work
together, in order to accomplish the purpose sug-
gested by the A ttorney-General. Tue.s lay night he
had an interview with the Attorney-General in
relation to conducting the case the next day. The
question, What did you and Mr. Cox do in order
to accomplish the result, was objected to, but
ruled admissible by the Chief Justice, and no ap-
peal was asked for. - The answer was, "All that we
did in court on Wednesday morning." The wit-
ness commenced to recount in detail the circum-
stances already briefly narrated by Mr. Cox, but
Mr. Butler interrupted him to say " that ho
wished to clear his skirts. All this matter was
going on against the objection of the managers and
under the ruling of the Chief Justice," whereupon
the Chief Justice rose and said, "It goes in by de-
cision of the Senate of the United States." The
witness then resumed his minute narration, and at
its close, on cross-examination by Mr. Butler,
testified that Thomas was not at the White
House when he arrived. lie did not know
whethei he was at the War apartment or not.
E. 0. Perrin, of Long Island, was then called,
and testified that ha had been personally ac-
quainted with the President about 14 years. He
was in Washington during the month of February
in company with Mr. &lye, member of Congress
from New York, and bad an interview with the
President, February 21, about two o'clock p.m.
He took Mr. Seyle there to introduce him, but
neither he nor Mr. S. lye had any knowledge of the
removal of Mr. Stanton. The counsel offered to
prove that the President informed them that he
had removed Mr. Stanton, and would soon send to
the Senate a good name for the position, but that
he did not anticipate resistance, and regarded the
arrangement as temporary. Mr. Butler objected,
and an argument ensued on both sides. The
question was ruled out by the Senate. Mr. Evarts
had nothing more to ask in that view, and sug-
gested an adjournment ; but Mr. Butler opposed
this in a long speech, wherein he stated that
the Senators must get that man Andrew
Jchnson out ; while they were thus losing time
their fellow-citizens were falling under the knives of
Southern assassins. The Ku-Klux Khan had even
threatened himself, directing him to prepare his
coffin and to meet his God. Nor was this all, the
Secretary of the Treasury was defrauding the Go-
vernment, by buying Bonds at name than the market
rate. Even since the 20th Feb. $10,000,000 in gold
had been stolen from the Treasury, and, he attri-
buted all to the man in the White House, ending
with the declaration that the Senate must at once
proceed to eject him. The speech wag couched in
the worse taste, it occupied 20 minutes, was entirely
impromptu, unsanctioued by his colleagues, and has
been very strongly condemned. It was replied to
by Mr. Evarts, who said he had never heard such
an harangue before, though he could not say that
he would not hear another in that Court. A
glance at the reports as they appear in the news-
papers will show that where the President's counsel
...ha,s_taken a paragraph, the Managers have occupied
columns. Hour after hour is lost in objections to
the evidence for the President. Twenty minutes
by'the watch bad been consumed, even by that
harangue in which the learned Manager discussed
the Ku-Klux Klan.—The Senate then adjourned.