The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

TENANT OF IRELAND.

The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN asked the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government if it was the inten-
tion of her Majesty's Government to introduce or sup-
port, during the present session of Parliament, any
measure for the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieute-
nant of Ireland? He said he asked this question in con-
sequence of the excitement which prevailed on the
subject in Dublin, and which was increased by an article
in that great organ of public opinion, the Times news-
paper of yesterday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his Hon. Friend would
be aware that it would be impossible t• abolish the office
e Lord-Lieutenat of Ireland without introducing a Bill
into that House, of which due notice would
have to be given. He would say further, that
the Government had fur some time been in consulta-
tion as to the propriety of introducing a Bill
to abolish that office—(Hear, hear)—and they had been
in communication with the Lord-Lieutenant on the sub-
ject. If any such Bill were introduced it would be
brought forward in the name of the Government, and
not of that of any private Member of the House.
VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.

In reply to an HoN. MEMBER,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would depend upon
the progress which might be made to-night in the Com-
mittee of Supply whether this Bill would be brought on
again on Monday; but if it were agreed to in Commit-
tee, the Government did not propose to take the third
reading until after Easter.
-ECCLESIASTICAL BILL.
In reply to Mr. HORSIIAN,
Lord J. RUSSELL sail' he would not be able to take
this Bill on the Bth of April, but might be able to do so
on the Monday following.
ARMY ESTIMATES.

On the mot:on that the House should go into Com
mittee on the Army Estimates,

Mr. FOX MAULE said he hoped that the Hon.
and Gallant Member who had notice of a motion, on
going into Committee of Supply on the Army Esti-
mates, to draw the attention of the House to the brevet
which took place on the occasion of her Majesty's late
visit to Ireland, would withdraw his motion or postpone
it to some future period.
Major BLACKALL said he should be sorry to go
on with any motion of his against the wish of the House,
but as it was a subject which was not of general inte-
rest, he hnd taken the opportunity of the Hon.
Member for the West Riding's motion, when there
would be a full House, to call the attention of the
House to the subject in question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that, however unimportant
or brief the subject might be, if the Gallant Member
persisted in going on with his motion, it would prevent
the Hon. Member for the West Riding from going on
with his motion.

Major BLACKALL could not consent to withdraw
his motion, although, being an exclusively military
one, it would not be of such general interest.
He had to complain that the officers of the line had been
unfairly treeted by the promotions which were made on
the occasion of her Majesty's visit to Ireland. On occa-
sions like that promotions were made, but they wore
too often confined to the officers of the household
troops, and he thought it was high time
that this system of favouritism was put a stop to. He
had no personal interest in bringing this matter before
the House. He knew none of the gentlemen who were
passed over on the occasion of the late brevet, while he wog
acquainted with many who enjoyed promotion under it,
and if, therefore, he were to allow his feelings to prevail
now, it ought to be rather against than for this motion.
He had taken notice of this simply because it was a
public duty, and not for the purpose of serving his own
interest or the interest of any friend of his.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, on the occasion of her Majesty's visit to
Ireland a large brevet was granted, in which several
majors were promoted to be lieutenant-colonels, five
captains to be majors, and several other officers were
similarly advanced. On the 15th February he
had moved for a return of the services
of those officers who had been promoted
in the brevet, and he had to complain that that return
had not been laid upon the table. He was told as an
excuse for the delay, that the return had to be referred
to Dublin for verification. That he thought to be merely
an excuse, but as the return was not at hand he would
read a statement of the names of the officers who had
been promoted and of those who had not been promoted
during the late brevet. This the Hon. Gentleman then did.
He hoped her Majesty would be induced, on these re-
presentations, to extend the brevet to those deserving
officers who had been passed over during the late royal
visit to Ireland, and if this were done the cost would not
be more than 2201. It had been suggested that distinc-
tions were only to be conferred upon officers in the
Dublin garrisons, but that could not be so, for he bad
seen various honours conferred upon officers in Cork and
other places through which her Majesty passed. The
Hon. and Gallant Member concluded by moving that an
humble address bo presented to her Majesty on tho
subject.
Mr. FOX MAULE was sorry that his Hon. and Gal.
lant Friend should have thought it necessary to delay
the business of the night by interposing a motion which
he should feel it necessary to ask the House
to reject. Much of his explanation would de-
pend on certain returns which had not yet
been furnished to the House, and ho thought
teat, as these returns required the nameof
every
eo'ffifs officer
osin tos'eurrtvhi:Orgn aeitnsucroelrrteoltadnt
uhdteyast e
rothe e e
w,t i
whether
ehtohfetrhheoeyhr
Majestyguard
had been employed, their rank, 'and date of com-
mission, the length of service at home or abroad,
must necessarily be of a complicated nature,
it was impossible for the Commander-in-Chief
to have got these returns ready. The brevet
was granted upon the principle that it was to
he confined to the garrison of Dublin, because it was
understood the senior officers of the line were stationed
there. There were six other officers promoted besides
those he had mentioned, in consideration that the
officers
Lord-Lieutenant
promoted were o
attachedr
the
c tu
to theola personalstaffhifc.
ofthe
of the troupe, whom it was customary to pre-
mote on all occasions when brevets weregranted
They could not stretch these honours beyond a certain
extent. He regretted that such should be the case, but
at the same time there wLre considerations by which
they were obliged to be bound, and he could not therefore
assent to the motion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend
(Major Blackall) for an address to her Majesty for a revi-
sion of the br( vet.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. lIUME said that he protested altogether against
the motion of the Honourable and Gallant Gentleman
opposite, and against the answer which had been given
to it by the Government. The Gallant Member had
talked of a paltry economy; for his own part ho con-
cei‘ ed that every shillieg that was added to the taxation
was a gross and uncalled for loaf osition on the people.—
(Hear.) The brevet, he believed, instead of having
been too narrow, had been most shamefully and infa-
mously abused.--(gear.) It was true that the Qugen

had the power of promoting whosoever she liked, and she
might make as many dukes, and lords, and capta;ns,
and majors as she liked, wherever she went—(Dear,
hear, and great laughter)—but with respect to this
especial case he would remark that the original
intention f the brevet was to promote officers of extra-
ordinary merit. The rule had, hosvever, degenerated,
and the late brevet had added at least 100,0001. a year
to the taxation of the country.—(llear, hear.)
Such was the case with the several brevet;
which had taken place prior to the year 1833;
but instead of the brevet being a grant of the Crown it
had been perverted into an organ of Ministerial patro-
nage.—(Hear, hear.) Such it ought not to be; and so
long as the system was continued be should protest
against any of those infranctions of that paltry economy
which was so injurious to the public interest.
Colonel DUNNE ewpressed his regret that such a
scanty brevet had been issued on the occasion cf the
royal visit.
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped the Hon. and Gallant
Gentleman would not press the motion to a division.
He was one of those who thought a brevet ought never
to take place, but if it did, it ought to be fairly dis-
tributed, and be given to old officers, and not to young
officers who had seen no service. He was compelled
to say that an undue preference had been shown in
the distributio❑ of the brevet in Dublin.

Colonel RAWDON hoped that the Gallant Member
would not press his motion.
After a few words of explanation from Major
BLACKALL, the motion was withdrawn.
SUPPLY.—REDUCTION OF EXPENDITURE.

On the question that the Speaker leave the chair,
previous to the House going into a Committee of Supply
on the Army Entimates,

Mr. COBDEN presented a petition from Liverpool,
signed by 30,000 persons, in favour of the principles
of financial reform. He complained of the manner
in which the expenditure of the country was submi, ted
to the Legislature, so different from the method of
other constitutional countries, because when the esti-
mates were brought forward in the House, any
material alteration which might be made in them was
taken as a vote of want of confidence. The manner in
which be had brought his motion forward was not with any
such view, but it was simply to ask the House to come to
a resolution embodying a return to the taxation of 1835.
This course was not a new one-1792 had been the
standard the Whigs had quoted and wished to return to
for a quarter of a century. He should ask the Government
to show reasons why they would not sanction a gradual
return to the standard of 1835. With the permission
of the House he would read a few figures showing the
relative difference of expenditure in the years
1836 and 1850: —ln the yeas ending the sth
of January, 1836, the interest cf the national
debt, feuded and unfunded, was 28,514,0001.; in the year
ending the sth January. 1850, it was 28,323,0001.;
the army expenses were in the first-named year
6,460,000/., in the latter year 6,549,0001.; the navy ex-
penses 4,990,0001. and 6,942,000/. respectively. The ex-
penses of the Ordnance department in the first year
amounted to 1,151,000/, in the last year t,) 2,323,000/.,
and the civil expenditure 4,223,000/, and 6,732,000/.
for the respective years. When he brought forward
his financial statement last year he had stated that
the excess of expenditure during the preceding
year over that of 1835 was upwards of 10,000,000/.
According to the estimates he found that the relative
amounts of expenditure, in 1849 and 1835, were
53,550,000/. against 44,395,000/. He was not stating
the matter from the estimates of the present year,
but from last year ; and by that it appeared
that the excess of expenditure of 1850 over 1835
was 6,453,0001. But taking the estimates of the ensuing
year, be thought that a million further at least would be
saved, making the total difference 5,500,000/. Well,
that was encouraging, but it only showed that
however desirous the Ministry might be of econo-
mising, there was such a pressure from with-
out, such an urgency from the several profes-
sional departments of the state, that unless the Govern-
ment were backed by a stern determination of that
House they would never be able to accomplish that
which they very possibly desired.—(Hear, hear.) How
then was he to;effect that saving? He would now show.
It was to be understood that he had to deal with an ex-
cess of 63 millions. He proposed, in the first place, to
reduce the army and navy and ordnance estimates
by 5,820,0001. The remaining 630,0001. he intended to
take from the civil expenditure, and from the expense
of managing the office of Woods and Forests, which
he suggested should be placed under better management.
He thought that the Hon. Gentleman would agree with
him that these were things which ought not to be re-
peated. (Hear, hear.) If they east their
eyes over this long list they would find many
things which would not have been allowed in
this day, and which never could be repeated.—(Hear,
hear.) Bat still they required a strict supervision by
this House.—(Hear, hear.) In looking over those
many items, and considering the cases of many
of the parties receiving pensions, he found
that it was not unreasonable to expect that a very con-
siderable saving would accrue to the state every year.—
(Hear.) He next came to salaries and allowances, and in
alluding to that portion of the subject he might observe
that Hon. Gentlemen opposite would agree with him
in first noticing the large sum expended for the support
of a number of Commissioners.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought we bad too many commissions. He should pre-
fer:to commissioners one well-paid responsible, intelligent
functionary.—(Hear, hear.) When Home Ministers and
Foreign Ministers are entrusted with such powers as
they possessed, he could not understand why they should
not give to an individual of good talents and character
the responsibility of commissioners. The work would be
better and cheaper done by such an individual than it
would be by a board of commissioners.—(Hear, hear.)
I He believed it was Jeremy Bentham who said that a
board was a screen; and it was not a bad one. He next
came to the diplomatic salaries and pensions. Now there,
he thought, they had a rich harvest to reap.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) They had a sum of 172,5951. as
the total charge for one year for diplomatic services and
pensions. From the detials of that charge he would give
them a few instances. There was a sum of 10,0001. a
year to the British Ambassador in France; 9,900/. a year
to the British Ambassador in Austria. Now, let them
just see what were the charges incurred under the same
heads by the Government of the United States ; and
let it be borne in mind, that although he was ready
to grant that no comparison could fairly be insti-
tuted between the expenditure necessary for the
hoed of the state under a monarchy like this, and the
head of a republican government like that of the United
States, he thought he was justified in contending that
there was no good reason why the necessary expenses of
the representative of the one country at a foreign court
should greatly exceed those of the representative of the
other country at the same court. The British Ambassa-
dor at Paris received 10,000/. a year, the American Am-
bassador at Paris received 2,000/. a year; the British
Ambassador at Vienna received 9,9001. a year, the
American Minister at Vienna received 1,000/. a year;
the British Ambassador at Constantinople received
6,5001. a year, the American Minister at Constantinople
received 1,300/. a year; the British Envoy at St. Peters-
burgh received 6,600/. a year, the American Envoy at
St. Petersburgh received 2,000/. a year.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that many of those charges ought to be sup-
pressed altogether. There was, for instance, a sum of
3,4001. for a Minister in Hanover, and there was a sum
of 4,0001. for a Minister in Bavaria. Now, he could see no
necessity for either of those charges; and he believed that
in private they were denounced by every Member of this
House, whatever might be the language which Hon. Gen-
tlemen held upon such subjects in public. Every one was
aware that such functionaries could do no good, while
they sometimes did mischief. His (Mr. Cobden's) firm
belief was, that they might reduce the cost of their diplo-
matic services by one-half ; and even then they would
be paying twice as much as the people of the United
States paid for the same services. He came next to the
courts of justice. Under the head of courts of justice in
the civil expenditure he found for the year ending the
sth of January, 1850, a charge of 1,105,0004; while
during the year ending on the sth of January, 1836, the
cost under the same head amounted to 430,000/. It was
true that that increase had arisen mainly from the
transfer to that item of a sum of 551,000/. for the Irish
constabulary force. But he still thought that a con-
siderable reduction might be made in the salaries and
expenses of our judicial establishments. He was one of
those who considered that it would be very bad economy
to pay judges too low; but he also believed that there
was great room for a reduction in the salaries of our
judges when he found them amounting to sums of COON.,
6,0001., 7,000/., and 8,0001. a year. In Ireland, in parti-
cular, he found that salaries were paid to the judges
wholly disproportioned to the resources and condition of
that country. One judge in Ireland received not
less than 8,000/. a year, while in the United States the
highest judicial functionary in the world, the judge of the
Supreme Court at Washington, who decided interna-
tional disputes between the several states and interpreted
with his colleagues without appeal, the constitution
of the United states, received only 1,200/. a year, and
some of the most eminent men of the age had filled that
post. Then there were the miscellaneous charges on
the Consolidated Fund, which had amounted to 388,0001.
last year, against 274,0001. in the year ending sth of
January, 1836. He found that out of the sum so spent
last year upwards of 50,000/. had been devoted to de-
fraying the costs of commissions in Ireland. Now,
surely these commissions were not to last for ever, and
some of them might he believed be managed at less ex-
pense. He next passed to the great item of miscella-
neous charges on annual grants of Parliament which
had amounted last year to 3,911,000/. against 2,144,0001.
in the year ending on the sth of January, 1836. Under
that item came public works, all the salaries and ex-
penses of the public departments and all our colonial
and consular establishments. Why every word
he read indicated an excessive amount of ex-
penditure under that head. There were, for instance,
the public works. Why, the House they were in, or
rather the House which they hoped to get into, was a
scandal to them.—(Cheers.) He had no voice in the
arrangements for the construction of that House, and
perhaps if he had had one he should have erred like
other Members; but it seemed to him that from the be-
ginning it had been a most melancholy failure.—(Hear.)
They had adopted the florid Gothic style of architecture
—the most expensive which it was possible for the mind
of man to conceive—and he should further say that their
entire proceedings in the House cf Commons, from the
pinnacle of the new house down to the sweepings of the
floor, were characterised by the most disgraceful waste
and extravagance. He proposed then there should be a
saving of 650,000/. in the expenditure to which
ho referred, and he believed that the Honourable
Gentleman, the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr.
Henley), would guarantee him a still greater sav-
inglyaestars,yebarecauese
ltahragte
roen..
duction of the salaries of our public servants, and a
me m in
be r the
had coarse
ad
voof a
advocated last
general cutting down of our establishments. He should
next proceed to that item which, as it was the largest,
was also the one which bad excited -the most disisission
—be meant the cost of our armameuts.He had last year

detailed to the House the various successive increases
which had been made to our military and naval estab-
lishincnte from the year 1536 to the year 13 43, for the
purpose ( f meeting certain special emergencies ; ',and he
heti then pointed out, as he should again remind the
Howe, that when those emergencies, such as the Oregon
boundary dispute, the Marino boundary dispute, the
JleLeod affair, and others, had passed away, the expen-
diture which had been incurred for the purpose of
meeting them lied remained unchanged. They came to
the discussion of the subject at that moment with the
additional valet) of another year's experience. They
were another year further removed from that greet
crisis in the history of Europe which almost every
body had expected was to lead to the most
calamitous consequences in the firm of inter-
national wars. Now, he thought, that if there
was one consoling facture—one drop of sweetness
in the cup of gall, which had been poured out upon
Europe during the last two years, it was that they
had elicited from all that turmoil and convulsion
the feet that there was no disposition among the great
bulklof the people cf any nation to pass their frontiers
and to make war upon neighbouring states.—(Hear,
hear.) Ho spoke of the people as distinguished from
their governments. They had always been told that
when Louis Phillippe should die the French people
would break their prison-bars and ravage Europe; but
they ha I seen that when the French people had got the
reins into their own hands tbey had manifested no in-
clination to carry war into their neighbours' territories.
Now, he did not want to assume that the millennsum!had
come, and that there could never again be as inter-
national war; and neither did he ask them totally to dis-
mantle their ships, and to leave their ports defenceless;
but he asked them to concur with him in this—that the
experience of the last twelve ruonths had rather con-
firmed than invalidated the statement he bad made last
year as to the safety of our effecting a gradual reduction
of our armaments. He had alluded last year to the state
of our relations with our colonies, and a most important
change bad since been proposed by the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government in those relations. The Noble
Lord had lately proposed that a system of self-government
should be extended to the colonies—that the people there
should have the right of forming their own constitutions, of
levying their own taxes, and fixing their own tariffs—
powers which the Government of the United States did
not grant to the different Members of their union; and
he would put it to the Noble Lord whether, after those
concessions had been made to the inhabitants of our co-
lollies, he could expect that the more highly-taxed and
less-prosperous people of this country would continue to
defray the expenses of the troops who acted there solely
as a military police?—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Cobden)
believed that no Minister with a head on his shoulders
could entertain any such expectation. He knew no mo-
tive which could account for the continuance of such a
system, except & desire on the part of the heads of our
Government to retain a certain amount of patronage in
Downing-street. He believed that by the withdrawal
of the forces in our distant colonies, the consequent di-
minution of duty in our army, and the saving of the
service of the troops constantly traversing the seas on
the way to and from those colonies, we might effect a
reduction in our army of 20,000 bayonets. Then, again,
they should recollect that the multiplication of railways
in this country, since 1835, had vastly increased the
efficiency of onr military force. General Gordon had
stated, before a Committee of that House, that the faci-
lity of communication afforded by railways enabled a
battalion to do the work of a small army; for by that
means troops could be conveyed from London
to Manchester in nine hours—that is to say, they could
be conveyed in that brief period over a distance over
which they could not march in less than 17 days. Then,
again, the construction of railways had greatly dimi-
nished the necessity for accumulating ordnance stores in
different parts of the country, as those stores could be
easily and rapidly conveyed from place to place. He did
not wish to assume that in this country the army was to
bo looked upon as a means of maintaining order, for he
clung to the belief—which had been the belief of the
Whig party thirty years ago—that a free and constitu-
tional state ought not to rely upon an army for any such
purpose; but he said that in any case a bayonet at pre-
sent was capable of doing far more than a bayonet in
the year 1835. But that was not his only reason for
believing that they might safely effect a reduction in our
army. He found that since the year 1835 our armed
force had been largely increased in various ways. We
had, for instance, 14,800 pensioners prepared for military
service; we, bad 9,200 dockyard men enrolled in bat-
talions and regularly drilled, and we had 3,000 county
constabulary. Then they had an increase of more than
26,000 armed men, and there had besides been a large
increase of the constabulary in Ireland. Now let them
look at the case of Ireland. The unhappy state of
that country had always been made an excuse for
keeping up a large army. But Ireland was at
present tranquil. It was proposed •that they should
pass a measure for giving to Ireland a better repre-
sentative system, and he believed that such a measure
would do more than the presence of a dozen regi-
ments in that country to keep the peace there. Ireland
was about to be brought within a short day's journey of
London. and he thought it need not be treated in any
respect for the future as a conquered province.—(Hear,
hear.) There were at present in Ireland 25,000 regular
troops; there was an increase of 5,000 in the Irish con-
stabulary; and there were more than 5,000 available
pensioners; so that there were altogether in that country
between 35,000 and 36,000 armed men. He believed
that was double the amount of the armed fore in Ireland
in the year 1833. He said, therefore, that the army in
that country might be very much reduced. He believed
that our army generally might not only be reduced, but
that considerable economy might be practised in its or-
ganisation. He would venture to say that the organisa-
tion of our army was the most expensive in Europe. and
was maintained more especially for officers.—(Hear,
hear.) He found that a reduction had been effected in
the number of our rank and file, but he did not find that
a corresponding reduction bad been effected in the num-
ber of our officers' A reduction to the amount of 1,800
men was at present announced; but in that instance also
he saw no indication of a corresponding reduction in the
numbers sf the superior grades of our army. In our
cavalry regiments especially he thought that a more eco-
nomical organization could be effected. He had shown to
an Austrian general officer, who had taken a distinguished
part in the Hungarian war, a list of the men and
officers in our cavalry regiments, and on seeing it, that
general officer had laughed outright. He had stated to
him (Mr. Cobden) the number of officers in the cavilry
regiments of Austria as compared with the number in
the cavalry regiments of this country; and the result of
that statement was, that in the Austrian cavalry regi-
ments there was one officer to 28 men, while in the
English Guards there was one officer to 11 men; and in
our cavalry regiments of the line there was one officer
to 12 men; so that ono English cavalry regirant had
20 per cent. more officers than two Austrian cavalry
regiments.—(Hear, hear.) He should advise her Ma.
for
were
ed
b y only
the
jty
the
ea's
purpose Ministers
of t
taking
n alterg a
wt haayt
asjia,saternigumifenitt
Liverpool Financial Reform Association, whore they
alleged that our army was kept up for the purpose of
providing situations for our aristocracy. Let them
recollect that while they diminished the number of
their men, and yet retained their officers, they would
part with their most effective force, and preserve only
them a
state maintaining
of our navy with that of
that which was most expensive. He should pass to
a consideration of the state of our navy. That
navy had been immenseloi)n9.i9n,g increasedoooi
since year
f
had been increased
t/. t o 6,942,0001. the
tslhiBne3cyse thatthe
compared
year from 4t,
costof
a
the United States, they would find that while that coun-
try had only one line-of-battle ship at sea, and had a
number of smaller vessels, which were the best fitted for
acting as a police force for merchant ships, we kept at
sea a number of enormous line-of-battle ships, which
were no more fitted for acting as a police force on the
ocean, than a military force with a park of artillery
would be fitted for pursuing pickpockets in the streets
and alleys of London.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He
feared that our. Government had only kept up those
enormous vessels in order to find preferment for the
members of our higher classes. There was one great
reason why they should reduce our navy at present, and
which reason did not exist in the year 1835. Since that
year there had been constructed in this country a vast
number of mercantile steam•vessels which might, if ne-
cessary, be employed for the national defence; and in
that way our means of meeting any dangerous emer-
gency bad been greatly increased. It had been ascer-
tained by a Committee of that House last year that we
had 180 mercantile steam-vessels of 400 tons,
and 35 mercantile steam-vessels of more than
1,000 tons, each of •which could be made
available for warlike purpose in the course- of six
or eight weeks. He saw, therefore, in the present
state of the naval resources of this country,
ample reasons why we should diminish our naval esta-
blishment ; and he should add that he certainly did not
think that our fleet was at present doing us any use or
any credit.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think there
would be any great cause for regret if those Government
line-of-battle ships at present in the Pirseus were laid
up in ordinary, or on the stocks. He thought we would
do well 'to imitate the policy of the United States, which
maintained a small naval force in commission, but which
from the resources and prosperity of her inhabitants—a
prosperity which was, in a great measure, owing to the
lightness of her taxation—were known to be formidable,
and were consequently respected by other powers. Mo-
ney formed the sinews of war, and a wealthy and
flourishing country like the United States, without great
armaments might be more formidable than countries like
France or Austria, encumbered with bayonets, but pos-
sessing only empty exchequers. But let it be remem-
bered that he was not advocating disarmament ; ho only
wished that our naval and military forces should be re-
duced to an amount which would enable us to maintain
them for 10,000,000/. instead of 15,000,0001., the sum
expended on them last year. Then, again, there was
the ordnance department. Ho believed that, oven in the
service as well as among the public, a belief prevailed
that the arrangements in that department might be ma-
terially improved. It had been ascertained by a Com-
mittee, of which he had been a member, that 15 per cent-.
might be saved in the cost of our ordnance stores, with-
out any diminution in the efficiency of that branch of the
public service. Then, again, he believed that valuable
reforms might be effected in the arrangements with re-
spect to our artillery, our sappers and miners, and engi-
neers. He had been told by a high military authority
that a very great saving might be effected if a large
number of our artillery corps were stationed in such
places as Malta and Gibraltar, where they could bo very
'usefully employed, and where troops of the line were at
present kept on a space too limited to allow of their
going • through the manamvers which would ensure to
them the highest amount of discipline. He proposed
that the cost of our armaments should be fixed at
10,000,000/. a year. Now, let it be remembered that
that was. nearly twice as much as the whole expense
of the Government of the United States before the
Mexican war, and that it was more than the whole
expense of 'the Prussian Government. Would any-
body tell him that, under these circtimstanoes, he was .

proposing to dismantle our chips, and t r leave our
ports delencele3s? He asked Hon. Gentlemen to put
alongside of the danger of having only 10,000,0001. to
pay for our miiitary ests.blishmente—if there would be
any danger in such a proceeding—he asked them to
put alongside of it the danger of leaving their taxation
in the state in which it was rt preeent placed. lle curl -
±0355(1 ho was not one of those who theught thee thei
country was lightly taxer!. Ile believed seine gentlemeu
in the City had lately written a p2,l2phlet for the pur-
pose of showing that this country wits lightly taxed;
and the mode iu which that gentleman had attempted
to establish his position was by comparing our present
expenditure with our expenditure during the last three
years of the war, and, next, by comparing our ex-
penditure with that of some of the countries on the
Continent. Now, it might be true that we were not
more heavily taxed in proportion to our wealth than we
had formerly been. But what he contended was, that
our wealth did not pay our taxation,—(Hear, hear.) Ho
believed that if wealth bore its proportionate share of
taxation in this country they would not have rich men
in the City writing pamphlets to show that we were
lightly taxed.—(Hear, hear.) Why, 35,000,000/. cr
36,000,0001. a year were 7 aised in this country upon
articles of consumption. For his part he believed that
many years could not pass without an alteration, or an
abolition of many of our taxes—of those taxes which
pressed on the industry, manufacturing or agricultural,
of the country. They had at present a surplus of
2,000,0001., and it was said that they ought to apply that
surplus towards the payment of a portion of the national
debt. Now, he was a decided advocate for paying the
national debt—far paying either the principal or the in-
terest of that debt; but it appeared to him that a sum (.1
2.000,0001. was but a poor beginning for the payment
cf a debt of 800,000,0001. He did not think that they
ought to pay off the debt contracted of late years
any more than the debt of a former period ;
and indeed he looked upon it as a debt far less ob•
jectionable in its origin. Tho Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth had in the year 1842 commenced
a now financial system in this country by relaxing the
bonds upon industry and giving free scope to trade and
commerce. The Right lion. Baronet had imposed an
income-tax; and ho (Mr. Cobden) hoped that they would
never part with it. although he was anxious to see its
pressure differently distributed. But the financial policy
of the Right Hon. Baronet in the year 1842 had formed
a new era in the history of this country—(Hear, hear)—
and the present Government would not surely forfeit the
credit they might obtain by following up the policy of
the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government would be so
pressed by those who were suffering impediments to in-
dustry by indirect taxation, that they would be compel-
led to part with their surplus of only 2,000,0001. to satisfy
those who were clamorous for a remission of taxes, not
because they took so much money from their pockets, but
because they were found to interfere with the progress of
business, whether in paper-making, in printing, or
anything else. He therefore submitted that any Go-
vernment which might be in power must contemplate a
much larger surplus than 2,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.)
How was it possible, save by the plan which he had
proposed, to reduce the taxation, unless altering the sys-
tem altogether, or increasing the income-tax to 10 per
cent.? That the Government would not do he knew;
but they could do what he proposed, if the House would
only help him to press it on them. They could reduce
the taxation to the standard of 1835. That would give
a surplus which would make the present surplus a grow-
ing surplus, relieve industry to the amount of
10,000,000/., and afford the means of accomplishing
something important. Divide it in two. With half they
might convert some part of the debt into terminable
annuities, and with the other relieve the industry of
the people by taking the taxes off paper, malt, hops,
and other articles. Without one of those two courses
how could they do anything more than child's play?
He should, therefore, put it before the House whe-
ther there was not less danger in trusting t) their
own good intentions and to Divine Providence,
than in 10,000,0001. expended annually in arma-
ments? Was it not better to trust to these elements
of security, and have it in their power to relieve the
country from taxation, and give contentment to the
eople in the way which he had proposed? It was to
enable them to take that course that he wished the
House to pass this resolution, which was no vote of
want of confidence, but rather a vote of confidence.
There was a power in this country which resisted im-
provement—a power which did not appear in that
House, but worked by covert means, and required the
counteraction of that House. He asked them, then, if
they regarded the interests of those who sent them there,
not to regard this as a party question, and not to go out
on the opposite lobby because it was ho who had brought
it forward; but to vote bona fide on its merits in favour
of the motion. The Hon. Member concluded, amidst
loud cheers, by moving—" On going into Committee of
Supply, that the net expenditure of the Government for
the year 1835 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 260,
1847), amounted to 44,422,0001. ; that the net ex-
penditure for the year ended the sth day of January,
1860 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 1, 1850), amounted
to 50,853,0001.; the increase of upwards of 6,000,0001.
having been caused principally by successive augmenta-
tions of our warlike establishments and outlays for defen-
sive armaments. That no foreign danger, orneceasary cost
of the civil Government, or indispensable disbursements
for the services in our dependencies abroad, warrant.
the continuance of this increase of expenditure. That
the taxes required to meet the present expenditure im-
pede the operations of agriculture and manufactures,
and diminish the funds for the employment of labour in
all branches of productive industry, thereby tending to
produce pauperism and crime, and adding to the local
and general burdens of the people. That, to diminish
these evils, it is expedient that this House take steps to
reduce the annual expenditure, with all practicable speed,
to an amount not exceeding the sum which, within the
last fifteen years, has been proved to be sufficient for the
maintenance of the security, honour, and dignity of the
nation."

Mr. LABOUCHERE heartily concurred with the
Hon. Member for the West Riding in calling upon the
House to view this question in no party spirit, but to
deal with it solely with reLrence to its merits. had the
Honourable Member confined himself on this occasion,
before the estimates were considered, in laying before
the House his own views upon the great variety of
topics on which he had touched, he should have
been far from asserting that ho had not taken
a useful course, for the House could not do otherwise
than profit by the intelligence and research which the
Hon. Member was able to bring to bear upon any sub-
ject to which he addressed himself. But the Hon.
Member bad gone far beyond that. He had asked the
House to agree to a specific resolution, which it would
be his duty earnestly to urge the impropriety of acced-
ing to. He trusted he should be able to show the House
that unless they intended to affirm a proposition in direct
contradiction to facts which could be proved, and make a
pledge of a most impolitic description, which it might
be impossible to redeem with safety, and impossible to
retreat from with consistency and honour, it wag their
duty to their country, and their duty to those principles
of economy which he admitted ought to be foremost in
their minds, to reject the proposal of the Hon. Member.
The motion was a repetition of that which the Hon.
Member made last year. He again pledged the
House to revert to the expenditure of 1835, and
again ascribe ,I the increase which bad taken
place in the expenditure of this year, as com-
pared with 1835, to successive augmentations in our
warlike establishments:. He would endeavour to
show, in the first place, that the statement was incorrect
and that the pledge would be highly impolitic. There
was one difference between his motion this year and that
of last year, to which the Hon. Member did not make
oven a passing allusion. It was the only difference, but
a most important one. This year he stated the differ-
ence in the expenditure of the two periods between
which he instituted the comparison to be six millions;
last year ho stated it to be ten millions—(Hear, hear)—
and yet, notwithstanding this, his Hon. Friend still wont
on using the words " successive augmentations," and
asked the House to apply the same terms, he himself
confessing to a difference of not less than four millions
between this year and last.--(Hear.) He could only
say he heartily hoped if his Hon. Friend renewed his
motion year after year, he would, year after year, have
to alter that particular part of his motion. On this oe.
casion he could not help thinking that the statement of
his Hon. Friend refuted the terms of his motion. It was
incorrect to say that the difference of upwards of six
millions between this year and 1835 was caused prin-
cipally by successive augmentations for warlike
establishments and outlays on expensive arma-
ments.
He could show the House that when 1

they came to sift these accounts and examine the real
increase, the increase would be found not to exceed
2,365,0001. in round numbers. He held in his hand a
comparative statement of the expenditure in 1835 and
1849. He found the expenses of the debt 28,500,0001.
in 1835, and in 1849 28,323,0001., in round numbers,
showing a decrease on this head. The charges on the
Consolidated Fund showed an increase of 1,712,0001.;
army, 142,0001.; navy, 2,800,0001.; ordnance, 1,180,0001.;
miscellaneous services, 1,766,0001.; showing a total in-
crease of about 6,400,0001.; of this a considerable propor-
tion appeared under the head of army, navy, and ordnance
--namely, 4,166,0001. But in order to form a just com-
parison between the expenditure of the two years, allow-
ances must be made in consequence of the different moth
of making up the accounts, the excess in the rates not
being now, as formerly, applicable to the different ser-
vices. This made a difference of 642,0001. Then, again.
the sum formerly received in aid from the sale of old
stores was now paid into the Exchequer. This, in
1849, amounted to 421,000/. Then, again, tbe Post-
office packet service, part of the expenses of which ,
was formerly defrayed by the Post-office department,
formed part of the naval estimates of 1849, amount-
ing ing in round numbers to 737,0004 If the House
would add these figures together, they would find j
the real increase in our warlike establishments in 1849,
as compared with 1835, only 2,365,0001. He next pro-
ceeded
to deal with the allegation put forth by the Lion
Member, that the increase in our expenditure had boon
successive.—(Hear, hear.) He should bo able to show
that this statement was not consistent with fact. In
point of fict, since 1848, instead of there being a suc-
cessive augmentation, there had been a successive de-
crease in our expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) In the early
part of the period, since the year 1835, there was, no
doubt, an increase, but since 1848 there had been a
successive diminution. These were the reductions made
in the expenditure of the army, navy, and ord
nance, as stated last year by his Right Honourable
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose ad-
sence he deeply deplored, and whose place he felt
so inadequate to supply on an occasion like this. His
Right Honourable Friend then stated that last year the
reduction in the navy, as compared with the preceding
3 ear, 1848, was 730,000/ ; army, 378,0001; ordnance,
337,0001. in round numbers, showing altogether a dimi-
nution of 1,447,0001. It was to be observed also that the
estimates on the table showed a reduction in these
three departments, over and above those of last year,
of, on the navy, 424,0004—in which there would have
been a still further reduction of 100,0001. but for the

payment of head-money for the captures of pirates, and
th; a would Lase shown a reduction of se ere than
50),0001 ; on the army, 120,0001; and on the, ordnance,
198,000/, in round numbers. With respect to the army
the expendi tire had been ,uccessive!y diminished r ithin
the lest three years. lie 1,,1d in his hand an accennt
of the number a Of is ei in t!o Army for the lett live
years. which sleeved that in 1810 the nun her svee
100,000; in 1817, 108,900; in 1818, 113;000; in L'',l9,
103,000; and in the present a-ocr, 99,000, in round nuns-
hers.— (Hear, hear.) These facts proved to de:eenetra-
lion that instead of our naval and military establishments
being in a state of sueeessiee augmentation, they had
succeeded in placing them within the last three years in
a course of successive diminution. Since 1818 the de-
crease in the et&ctiva service had been no less than
14,700 men in round numbers. In connexion with this
subject, he would advert to a point which Lad de-
servedly attracted attention of late years to the navy
estimates—namely the objectionable practice which bad
prevailed of having more men borne than were actually
voted. This practice had now been entirely discon-
tinued, aed in the present year there was not a tingle
man borne on the naval force who had not been voted
by the house. The number of seamen and marines
borne this year were 549 less than were voted; and this
was the first year for several years past in which it had
been found practicable to carry this desirable object
into effect. But while be corrected a misconception into
which his Hon. Friend seemed to have fallen on these
points, it could not be denied that of late years there
had been a very considerable increase in the naval and
military expenditure, and the attention of the House had
frequently been called to its real causes. In the first
place, it was caused by works of defence of we at magni-
tude, which had entailed a very heavy, though tempo-
rary, charge on this country—such as dockyards, and
works at Malta and Gibraltar. He believed those works
were undertaken from n strong sense of their absolute
necessity on the part of those best able to judge. Money
thus spout was not wasted, but et the same time he re-
joiced to believe that that large source of expenditure
had been greatly checked if not altogether stopped.
Another great cause of this additional expenditure
since 1835 had been the necessity of creating establish-
meats for steam-vessels; but this was a charge which,
though great at first, would not continue. With respect
to this, also, he rejoiced to believe that it was not
likely to remain the heavy burden which it had been
hitherto. The third cause of the increase in our mili-
tary expenditure, to which he would ptesently more par-
ticularly allude, was the necessity of affording protection
to our colonial possessions, which had so much increased
since 1835. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tumworth on the budget of 1845 went fully into that
subject, and detailed to the House the reasons which, in
his opinion, justified that increase of military expendi-
ture. The gross increase in the civil expenditure from
1835 to 1849 still remained to be accounted for. He
had already stated that only the smaller half of the
6,000,000/, was justly attributable to the military expen-
diture, and he now proceeded to call the attention of the
House to the causes which had swelled the civil expen-
diture during that period. The charges on the Consoli-
dated Fund bad been increased by 712,0001, and the mis-
celieneous estimate, for civil services by 1,766,0001. in
round numbers making together a total of 2,478,0001.—a
larger sum than the real increase in the naval and mili-
tary expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This increaseed ex-
penditure for civil purposes might be classed under
three general heads : those charges which, in a
great measure, had at various times and for
various purposes been forced on the Govern-
ment by that House—(Hear)—acted upon, doubtless,
by the demands and opinions of the various con-
stituencies; next, the charges rendered necessary by un-
foreseen calamities; and,' thirdly, charges now defrayed
by a vote, which were formerly provided for from other
sources. Under the first head he would class harbours
of refuge, which had been forced on the Government,
forming a new charge of 141,0001.; payments in aid of
county rates, 148,0001; expenses connected with the
poor-law, 198,0001.; Parliamentary and other printing,
which lie quite agreed with his Hon. Friend in thinking
most monstrously extravagant, but to which he feared it
would be very difficult for the Government to offer any
efficient check unless it received more support from the
House.—(Hear, hear.) Under this head he found an
expense of 82,0001. The prison and convict service showed
an excess of expenditure amounting to 400,0001.; and
education, including the Irish colleges, about 225,0001,;
the office of Registrar-General and the Copyhold Com-
missioners, 71,0001.; the British Museum building and
establishment, 40,0001. He now took the second class,
that caused by unforeseen calamities, and first among
these he would take the burning of the old Houses of
Parliament, which be confessed had led to another un-
foreseen calamity—namely, the great expense of the new
Houser. Under this head there was an expenditure of
45,0001. The distress in Ireland entailed an expendi-
ture of 163,0001. The third class embraced those ex-
penses which were now provided for by a vote
of the House, and formerly were furnished from
other sources. There were the fees of the
House of Commons and the Government offices, for in-
stance, which were brought in aid of the estimate in
1835, but were now paid into the Consolidated Fund,
making a difference of 100,000/. In the Postage there
sal a difference consequent upon the abolition of franking
of 44,0001.; in the constabulary of Ireland an increase of
570,0001.; the expense of the police in London and
Dublin, an increase of 40,000/.; consular establishments
in China and other parts of the world, 53,0001. Ile had
thus shown that those statements which his Honour-
able Friend invited the House to concur with him in
making, that the increase of the expenditure since 1835
was mainly owing to the increase in our military estab-
lishments, were incorrect. He now proceeded to what ap-
peared to him a still more important branch of the motion
I—namely, the pledge which be called on the House to
I make, that they would speedily revert to the scale of
expenditure of 1835, having especial reference to the
naval and military txpenditure. The Hon. Member had
laboured much to prove that, in reality, they would do
no more by adopting his resolution than to say—" We
have every desire to revert to that scale; we do not
mean to do it in two or three years; all we mean to
say is, if circumstances are altogether unaltered, and
no new occurrence takes place, we have every desire
to revert to that scale." lie held such a proceeding
to be altogether unparliamentary and unprece-
dented. Ho should be as glad as his Honourable
Friend to see the House able to reduce the burdens of
the country and the military establishments to the same
scale as that of 1835; but he should not deal frankly
with the House or the country it he expressed any san-
guine hope as to the practicability of such a reduction.
H i
e was, therefore, unwilling to concur n giving a p.edgo
Which ho might be unable to redeem. But it was by no
means correct to say that the proposition of the Hon.
Member was to reduce the naval and military expendi-
ture to the level of 1835. His proposal was in truth to
reduce it much below that mark, unless he proposed to
compel Ireland to bear the whole burden of her consta-
bulary again, and revoked the grants for education and
other purposes which had been made since that time. In
point of fact, the House would find that has proposal was
to reduce the naval and military expenditure by no less
than 1,300,000/. below the scale of 1835. His Hon.
Friend had told him of his conversations with a Hunga-
rian general, and how he laughed at our skeleton regi-
ments with so many officers, and compared ours with
the Austrian system. Now he suspected the Hungarian
general laughed not because there were so many officers,
but because there were so few soldiers.—(Hear, hear.)
The truth was, ours eras a system based unreal economy,
and was so formed as to maintain the army on the
smallest possible scale compatible with the means of ex-
tending it as emergencies might arise.—(Hear, hear.)
It was all very well for the Hungarian general to talk
in this way, but what was the Austrian as compared
with the English army? It amounted to considerably
more than 400,000 men.—(Hear.) His Hon. Friend
had told them that the tree policy of this country was
not to have enormous naval and military establishrnente,
hut to preserve a well filled exchequer, and a contented
and prosperous people. In that he agreed with him, but
some observations made by his lion. Friend in the
course of his speech convinced him that his Hon. Friend
would agree with him in saying that this was all a gees-
don of degree, because his lion. Friend was no more for
turning off our soldiers and laying up our ships than he
was. The question was, were, our naval and military es-
tablishments excessive? Ho contended they were not.
Depend upon it the true economy was to maintain
them in an effective state, and so as to be capable of ex-
pansion at any time. His Hon. Friend wished the House
o make a Ileclaration to this country and the colonies
that henceforth a change of system must be adopted, and
that we should withdraw our military protection from
the dependencies of the British empire. Now ho did not
deny that it was the duty of the Government to watch nar-
rowly this branch of the national expenditure, and em-
brace every fit and suitable opportunity of keeping it
within due limits, and reducing it, if possible, within
still smaller bounds, nor had the Government neglected
this duty. As a general principle he thought that in all
which related to matters of internal police the colonies
might be fairly expected to bear the expense. With re-
gard to Imperial interests, it was the practice in former
times, before the French revolutionary war, for the co-
lonies of this country to bear, not the whole, but a share
of the burdens of the mother country in providing the
moans of Imperial defence. He was not prepared to say
that prudently, cautiously, and considerately, that prin-
ciple might not be again carried in our dealings with our
colonies to a greater degree than at present. Nothing,
however, was more to be deprecated than a hasty and in-
considerate affirmation of principles which, when carried
out to the British colonies, would only serve to stimulate
the efforts and assist the machinations of the disaffected.
He was not surprised that his Honourable Friend
should have touched on the subject of the colonies, for
no doubt on questions!of military establishments it was
impossible not to take them in account. He said " mi-
litary establishments," because be thought the colouies
of this country, scattered over the whole world,
were the moans of employing a smaller number of
chips tbaa she would be compelled to do without them.
There was no doubt, however, that this military expen-
diture—the cost of paying troops, barracks, ordnance,
and transport—which formed so large a proportion of
the dead weight of the army,
it was
attributable to
the colonial service. He admitted was desirable and
eradicable gradually to reduce this branch of expendi-
ture, hut he earnestly deprecated precipitate measures.
The circumstances of our colonies were widely different.
Putting out of the question Malta and Gitealtar, and
confining his observations to those which might be
strictly called colonies—he would begin with Australia.
That colony was not exposed to any foreign attack, or
danger from the aboriginal inhabitants; and, except in
one particular part, was perfectly able to protect itself
against evils consequent upon being brought in contact
with a convict population. The circumstances of Canada
were altogether different, with a large extent of foreign
frontier; and so were those of Now Zealand, with a large
aboriginal population, causing constant alarm and
danger to the European settlers. It would be impossible
to treat these in the same manner; but opportunities
would be taken as they arose, to invite the colonists to
take those charges upon themselves. But reductions

-
bad been going on at the Cape; he found,
thorn ware 5,365 troops, and, on the Ist January: 18avot.
4.108. fie believed, too, that, under the auspices
at
his Noble Friend at tho head of the Colouial-office,
Caffre police had been formed, which would still furthe!
reduce this expense. In Canada, on the Ist April, le3hiu,
0 ere were 6,400 troops; now, 4,300. Here, agairh t
system to which he lied referred had been citified eioi
in April, 18t7,
not harshly or unjustly, but tail' with advantage to de
country. The barracks at Montreal were found unte.el-0
a'aile, and it was therefore determined to remove ti
troops to another place. The inhabitants, however.,
were anxious that they should remain, and it was theref
fore thought fair that they should be at the expeme
war
new barracks for them, which cost 30,0001., and
paid 1., r by the local government. In Australia the
troops had also been considerably reduced, and the 'chat
legislature had been called on to take the charge of the
barrack establishments everywhere in the Australian
.e:
colonies except Van Diemen's Land, where, in cone
quence of the large number of convicts, it was thous
that the maintenance of the troops must be I-L
garded as an Imperial charge. His Honourable
Friend had called attention to America, and said, kC°O,
part :
how she maintains her commerce in every
tho world with so few ships. He (Mr. Laboucherets
was no advocate for maintaining a large ileeft,ht:is
neceseary to support the commercial interests et
country, and he believed our present system cf
moderate fleet, with our dockyards in a state to increai;
that fleet to the requisite force at any moment, was,
wisest policy. Ho could not quire admit that Ellglans';
who owed her min au minty to her ire position. should bier
completely defenceless in this respect as to be luta" d_°
equip a fleet of eight or ten vessels, as way, he kale '
wished. Ile did
.look at America, but he WO ce)m.,
pellet] to look to other quarters likewise. He was haPP.7O
to believe that we enjoyed at the present momentand
most peaceful relations with all the great ra ilitary
was lib,
naval nations in the world, and that there
probability of the peace, which has lasted so foal
years, being disturbed. But on the other hand, vvb.o
he looked at the great fleets which 111,,
and France could send forth at a ru°l33etlihis
warning, he could not consent to deprive as
country of the power of equipping such a ILE'', of
would be the best guarantee for the maintenance
peace. peace. He believed that during the eventful Peron-
of the last three years, when intestine wars and .1
vulsions were rife jthroughout Europe, the trangtil adl
which this country enjoyed at home, and respect sate
were owing to the knowledge that she was readlolt
..
any moment to support her interests and her holTeo
He believed the people of England would find their "o
safeguard in a loyal and attached people, relying eh. ne,
ancient institutions, with naval and military
not large, but respectable—he believed that girth
they would have not only a barrier and safeguard--- ad
would ensure to themselves the means of etabilitY sop
tranquillity. He met the Honourable Gentlemen t"Pho
that point at once. He would remind the 110050
they were not far from the Black Sea or the laret
They were surrounded by powerful nations with fleas
resources, who had great resources for equiPPl.eg,..ioe(-d
and sending out armies.—( Hear, hear.) He maul"; nor
then, that it was not the true policy of that countrY go
true economy, to annihilate their means of defence. owe
had now disposed of the main purpose of the resole c.,
instituttoloh
—namely, that portion of it which asserted that the Pyres
gressive increase of the expenditure since 183daaarf
mainly owing to the increase in the naval and al"- ie-
establishments of the country. The Hon. Gentlernsa the
vited them to take a p:edge that they should reduce
35
i ,
expenditure of the country within the limits of ton
The other resolutions ho looked upon as merely °ate
Tories of the maiu question. Ile did not dislnltelod
principle, thet the taxies levied on the people of -Vtg r- 4,
" Impede the operations of agriculture and menden; eia
and diminish the funds for the employment of bdltrbet
all branches of productive industry." lie adMitteeuthey
taxes are very bad things—(llear, hear)—and od
could be done without, no doubt it would be a very",B°49
thing; but when the year 1835 was compared wilt! ;iges
and 1850, they must admit that most important 007 w
had been made in the taxation, which could not fail t-oe
beneficial to the industry of the country. The refillsl3ey
of taxation that had taken place had not brought
into the Treasury; but there was no doubt it had
fejett
tonally relieved the industry and stimulated the erabe
of the people. He held iu hand a docement Tr":`'h be
had not received from the vote-office, but
would recommend to the study of Hon. Memberijonte
Was a map published by the Hon. Member for 13ecreet
in which, by various liner, he showed the cenive,-, of
industry, and revenue of the country for a weber
of
years. The price of corn and consols for a nualue'rib-
years was described by rising and falling deseoad
ing figures, like the Andes or Antilles, in eerrated ao
angular lines.—(Loud laughter.) There were peat
features in that map that he had observed with "
satisfaction. When he looked at the line of elPsera
diture he found that in 1813 and succeetiq Ybeeen
it was at a tremendous height, but it bad Tr. 014
gradually and regularly declining since then, "1- (A-
quite trite it had been creeping up since 153;,c ''
--atid
laugh)—but then came the turning point of 184°10l.
he was glad to Fee the line take a turn again dowewf the
There were other lines indicating the prosperity °lel%
trade and commerce of the country; and reneges the
those great sources of the wealth and well-being: '-d the
country had been steadily increasing; and he det'v-ditail'
greatest satiefection from seeing :hat, with the f ate
Dished expenditure, the trade and commerce e,„, the
country was increasing. He would net enter int'voti
question of whether they were more or less taxed ober
other countries, and he agreed with the Hon, et bet
that it was the duty of the House to take care tha'" tool
did not pay more taxes than were absolutely beeoes the
for the maintenance of the honour and interests le0"
country, hut he denied that the economy of a gre''oe
pire like England was to be measured by finer? "and
It should be without waste or extravagance,- but itsi-tebo
be such as was suited to the wants and wishes e:er'
country. He was meat anxious to see that IRO' 'the
revere in their laudable design of reducing gee
expenditure, and he could as:sure them that her i their
jesty's Government would bo most anxious to secoll"e"rent
efforts. He hoped, however, they would not be soigajoio•
of the nature of their trust as to seek a fleeting 111300
mantary popularity at the expense of the secret' eland.
they owed to the Sovereign and the people of 'Bag Oil
There was one point more he wished to rtfer to; dies
Hoe. Gentleman had referred to the amountof theisl did
salariea which he seemed to consider excessive• omy
not deny that in their judicial establishments eeThelit
might not be pushed further; but when the Ileen' ct
tleman talked of America ho would again remind -„"teiest,
the difference in the circumstances of the two cett-ad
There was nothing England was more justly Pricipar,
than the character and conduct of herjudges.-;,`nrice,
hear.) It could not be estimated by any inonP,J,-,`f the
the value they were of in conciliating the goodarlh' ;Our'
people and maintaining respect for the laws slid :ed al3d
Lions of the country. It was, then, most abst,l` olera
paltry economy to measure their services ley tee'
money value. He (Mr. Labouchere) had hce°;:h the
United States, and had been much delighted w`
progress of that great people in prosperity, but h .-0
lie
not an indiscriminate admirer of everything theL•glail
believed that the judicial establishments Of "Vniteu
were infinitely better. The Chief Justice in the s}
men
States received 1,200/. a year, but what %vas the -"
We°
pursued there? They did not think that foJc thel
after sixty years of age was fit to be a judge, ea f Mr•
pensioned him off. Why, there was the
ese:ter he
Emm ohoett, ho hal been a jude,e3 there, and at 'to the
had been pensioned off, lie was obliged to go ba';`
bar, at which he was in the first practise, ear°lles(l-
than he had received as a judge.—(clear, bear.) eosett
mitted as much as any one the importance and ;Oiled°
of economy, and therefore it was not upon these g
that he oppe,el the motion of the lion. Gentiansl:toe to
lieving that the resolutions which he tasked the 1.11-'O/ the
affirm were plainly inconsistent with the interestsbero to
country—believing that the pledges he wishedj before
make were imprudent and improper • sad, as peal'
said, believing that they might be placed in such t tees°
tion that they would be unable to carry °,,,t1 floe re'
pledges, which, on the other hand, they couwited the
treat from with consistency or honour---he 54,16 ober:
House to negative them. He hoped lion' -
by
would not be deterred from voting against theta e 3 b 1
feeling that their conduct would be Inisconatr;is de-
sirous of economy,
their constituents. Although the Government
,%-f
the
mere appearance of it, unless they saw it Pierce boned
practical and substantial shape before them. `
I deranon
they would not be rnisleued in f;
the House would proceed unpledged to the eons' by the
of the estimates which would be laid before them
they
different members of the Government to he, 00';
were entrusted. Let theta oppose them if tdceive°
dered it necessary, and support them if °lel theta S°
uponof
reolu; •
them right and proper; and ho called
take that course rather than affirm a series eee cause t
tions which they would unquestionably e
regret. ;„„d that
Mr. SPOONER said if he was onv'--- solu'relo
giving his support, as he intended, to these frnetere„-rne
he should consider himself pledged to Wife-elf° Itot
that would have the effect of reducing the e tbete' veto
of the army or navy he would not vote f°Cial
he saw nothing whatever in them to bind Poo effectlae
fur any motion hereafter that would retitle(' eats'
strength of their naval and military establish •
wtthon t,
.00
t
thought there was ample room for reductthe though
touching anything that was effective. If ocairPle:e
that by so doing he should bo in:dieting t",e, fled to,
America, which had been so elaborately flue"- biro L'"
Au e
would not support them. Nothing would innely 1,2%a
vote that the Chief Justice should receive (:)-t deny
per annum. But at the same time be could o°_to he ft' 0
lt
propositions contained in theie resolutions,. court
that in voting for them he was about to take !shorn
!shoal_
different from that of t'ae Her. Gentleman /_;'` bo the
ho usually voted, and whose opinions I%h shoe'
highest respect for. The first resolution, Di
IT
heir
thet
large increase that. had taken place w` heir th
diture, had not hake contradicted, and it stated
the increase had been caueed principallY h)tr_bao-d Otte"
augmentations of our warlike establish men ',„,130,100a
bye fir defensive armaments. The
.1.1.0 n.,
,aaa
oseseell
did not say that the increase had been entire
~eveti ea,
lee
them; it was aeon uestion of dtgree, and h;ro___llooe. 1
formed a very siderable part of that
nodci.'ef,.,uce
Right Honourable Gentlecaan had made
e at i'Lir"-'•
the salary of 10,0001. a year to our auebacsae
to
sueib.....e.
and many other extravaigent He
resolutioa which he could not refuse his at
eXPenal
" That, the taxes required to meet the presentttroanfsa't
Lure impede the operittions of agricultureemnptlchmeot
tures, mid diminish the funds for then
_tritrly:!thereht7
tier' people. 1
labour tai branches of productive 1 d
ant,
_Adjug
tending to produce paeperisan and crime, _ lt,"e coati
ent to the resole
tot
le
Con he denied the truth of tile proposimi a
hr'seticab
Idoeenayl that,n d gae
resolution pledged them to return assoh,
hi. &nave:lo
and
deraut
tb,otur•detr•nu3seodt
his
ms.cop.
nibe
ne
to the expenditure of 1835. The Right, PreeiPittl
construed that into an immediate, aastyh_est Riding bee
return, but the Hon. Member for the W had
t respect.
uul
had been particularly guarded in that
oust
pointed out to them the scale of expetuw

4,n ty '3. r'"'tla *by the Right Hen. Memle r for Tae,wo; th
15
It thsin 71) ite(l) Vi:4w, and to re tote rt
Iny "".. prateicaltle_ it Wat; illlllo,Slble ler
441114 t• AleMb rePr',wotinr the ill terCat3 t f the coin:-
r):: at btri,:;ft to reerle h4Ca•,;:euit. these propesitionF.
(h !'!"' 11'm• (3nt!-1,1,) reeeet alte Fatima to
elawa,a ee • ' bereicial to ell
el; Sea
tiee. 'I 2-;sure, howee,r, Via', POW
leka,,mun all Sitlf.a. d by their havieg,
the
of felt itsvitur itlty }portion of the
llay.,;(ttute of the country in tile t;,liape of duties. If
sta:ll " wittt the pia)'etent system, they would find
what elliged to tel their expenditure beyond
tan; censistent with the eeity anti honour of the
What had brett the result of taking off the
4::11:;1 4'''ro imported from other coon tties ? Did
all t.: that they oleaieo,l it ono ferthing cheaper
tot, iraca- had a small f1)70 impoted? Certainly
14ta 7!'rY mereont imiYmicti a moderate fixed
pa,a9-I,Ptlee would fell by that arneunt abroad, end
'i4ercy by the course they lied adopted they
it,tot at that amount as so much additional pro•
Lost:, ,r tte pocket' of the foreigner, and took
"Joetrithtnir own.-(Cheers.) Agin), there was the
t-n- the Hon. Moinher for the West Riding,
te il3 Prepared with lihn to take off the daty'upon
414,01''teelluse he considered it at most uujust tax, as well
to the cow,tr,l at iarg„ which suffered
NI E, from that course. By the alterations in the
11111
,Y 6 thty had doubled the value of money,
CA' I boat had been termed by the Right Hoe. -Baronet
Joy had made with the landlords.-
ki-eit they must ultimately come to the quo.,-
114' Gv"at i3Fund ?"- Roars of laughter.) Now
".414t3'in
th theh g the same amount
114 104bilad Pensioners and others, when it would pur-
I;a a the amount of wheat or any other (mmo-
-iortnerly
ta,l4'a tinr. and it was clear to him that that
v must soonvr or later be altered. The
notoa
it ov ew hot rest satisfisd so long as they saw those
it ernaid.
Is bile they were deprived of ba!f their
w1181114,C nalf Of their property. The Right Hon. Bee
ebe said the other night that be (Mr. Spooner)
allteeta what he was going to say, aed he bad cheered.
ItY aritlY-(11(ar and a lo.ugh)-because,he cordi-
e,te tefiZttire,lY agreed with him. He had told the
tithe corn-laws were a delusion-that:thhe
tr, Paiate4l would slide from under their feet ; and
Bill
1),813, out to them the effects of the Currency
It'ade believed that considerable reductions might
. ti taea„
a itee
t expenditure. For instance, let them
tut "of Las dockyards, and they would find a great
lib da:::l4ragant expenditure that might be very. safely
4i 4riqiie;'gain, there was the ordnane!establtshme.n ,
taetel4l4 Pail-mall and in the City-the object
labeatee to increase the expense and render mere
4;41488 Ana
difficult the mode of conducting the pub-
-111„-e *0414.15:".4veu if. the Admiralty was looked into,
Cit;°, fotlnd good ground for reduction. Thp
katil'eg lad 'cle Lords cf the-Treasury. of whom mr:
hake e 40, %aid that the only use they were of
iwiains.t.)..
1 nett '"e, to keep a House, and to cheer them is
lh "I,llll,eraa was wrong.-(A laugh.) He shoe give
"tat the resolutions of the Hon. Member for
1111,1Aittlillg•
thatl4o said he would not follow his Hon. Friend
of the currency. He contended that no
11%:!kesh 0"f be of
given by the Right lion. GentlemanG to
k..4l4'de. • his Hon. Friend. The Right Hon. en•
41t1 facts
to. • leobrought forward. by his Hon.
tli,„`;,,snoh being the case, it was their duty to
kl,44;theetsa Ctlacts. In the first place the Right lion.
tditts%t - that the increase in the military es-
a" le f„,11"110UtItS to six millions since 1835; and
144',,Nhttt;,:' w^th© increase amounted only to 2,360,0001.
N't;ilahtata.t`% the flea? Why,. in 1835, the military es-
ai,heee, el this country, including the army, navy,
if! amounted to' 11,657,000/. This sum had
lisla~..,',N)Oril''r'usf,d to 12,000,000 t, to 13,000,000/., up to-
wee; rs„ Meer, hear.) Tne estimates in this re-
tte•ek4„3s in t_t Year 17,645,000/., and proving that. the
ton„4llta,-; "" expenditure, as regarded the military
a,""•000/`'Illa Lelween now and 1835, bad increased
to(ue ar, hear.) 'rho Hon Gentleman then
pbt yet reed the resolution proposed by the Hon.
eipala the fa the West Riding, and. asked if any.
laia (maid deny the justice of t e prhm
° ' (lw •
I:Petah, ain the said resolution? It wasetrue t at
1-1t4,71 aqure the• country had greatly increased
tot"Y as a consequence the taxes had also been
P,ttlan nertitia„
t.„„ ;La It was said that year by year the Go.
raneta; decreasing the expenditure of the country,
Bete tl,;erY effort would hereafter be made to further
th.'ltlrop-„...elPenditure. 'What proof had they that the
47elitu-' would do sit in its power to bring down the
q-,Plest„„ru ? Until the House refused the increase on
11101te Qe't4x, there was no manifestation on the tart
ut4alettertintent that they would endeavour to lessen
tOk!ii 415 /1 of the countr, • -(Hear, hear.) It was only
wet akre -e'll'e refused )tbe income-tax that the estie
forth, withdrawn and new ones introduced, and it
Btit , hat the Right Hon. Gentleman took credit
)7 44414altt 1;?. the Government.-(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
er , referred to the last resolution moved by
~l4k,t),f,trttae,itin'her fur Yorkshire, which ref erred to the
aleeittarp'
of the
which it attributed to the extravagant
the country. Ho contended that unless
if could pledged itself by adopting these resolutions,
le 1831 t ratan. to reduce the burdens of the coun-
lia ; the number of men in the army amounted
litAn 1847 the number were increased to
,14:',.Idth-Thi4 year the number was 99,127. Why
1471 t yt,.-Y not go back to the numbers voted in 1835,?
`B4B-11. the number of men in the navy were 26,841.
tit cause pel3natber increased to 44,900.. .Where was
19 "cd this • ? The Hon. Gentleman then
t increase
Ps° the staff of the army abroad and at home,
if"'lntZi,(4 that while the charge under this head
11111004 1'4,1835 to 118,000 L, it increased in 1849 to
," "re not all these facts a proof that we ought
tk .iho the state of affairs such as they existed in
41.1t4rliteme Hon. Gentleman then referred to colonial
►re
al -I' and said that this and other expenses would
Ilw)lahtelredueed unless they acted upon the resolution
41414 tit) the 'louse by his Hon. Friend. Unlessa the
koh44 of ,41P1 exercise a discretion in these m ttere, in-
.4wing the Ministry to continue a system of
1744.34). extravagance, the pensions would never be
04fhral e therefore, urged the House to be just, and
t l'hUeSe resolutions, unless good ground were
441,10 contrary
",4,111ES would not have taken any part in this
4. q°-. "84.1 it not been for what had fallen from the
Lie settl the House. That
a: 'tan who last addressed
`4:'ltles7"er had stated that no person could be sincere
d
111,;btiorl'3') to effect a reduction in the expenditure an
`toll the country who voted against the motion of
,k,l", '4.4.411,011*er for the West Riding. As one who
(4fc eIY desirous of aiding to the utmost. of his
';11k l'eduction of expenditure and taxation, he
(4:11 si'rie4) thought it right to state that he could with
tc.tl4tetitY veto against the motion of the Hon.
qin;(1:1,1);;;(11enr, hear.) The course proposed
It4°°tte„-"m opinion, no teat of sincerity at all. It
lf4 14 to him at all necessary, in order to the ob-
,lo ee:,...."rt that the House should recapitulate that
°'l,l" 4141-'1 e one perfectly knew-namely, that between
th51',,1550 there had been an augmentation of public
NI tact A They. all knew that but too well; but to state
t6lted tleius broadly without note or comment was cal-
k' lee n'Y to Mier ad the public, and to impede rather
ltt• LIZ-1e the object. The Right Hon. Gentleman
kitli*,;Oebere) bad shown, and he had no doubt cor-
m;
lift et of the 6,000,0001. of augmentation 2,300,00
to 'rsty "risen on, the estimates for our naval an,.
',lliski"ta,_hlishments and yet the House was invited
,„t Hat the whole increase of 6,000,000!. was
111 tital)"Y" attributable to that cause. Now, he (M.%
:11 ;:,)L11(1 not assent to that proposition, and h
his Hon Friend p.) w. ould
111. 4/,`°.11 reconsider.ation, feelhimself justified in as-
-4t foe either. He was also called upon to affirm
110 fo • r*
tke est,ol reigu danger, or necessary
cost of the civil
le sort, or indispensable disbursements for the sere
depsndencies abroad warrant the continuance.
isivA lc crease of expenditure." Now, he might be dis-
rntild 48seht to every word cf this proposition; but_
essent to the spirit in which it was made
1111„8' to "de11,.) If he did he should be induclng then
,itt:Ps* declare that the present state of things _
a,'oe as not such as to warrant the maintenance of
as
t4ilitary
and naval establishment in this country
tob,)vtei his opinion, the very reverse was the fact..
N. 14), •Ile, that there never was a time when this
'ls; 'tit W"
in a state of more complete repose than at
tts-144:ith the exception of a little episode in the
tOoelyrlQpii t'a(llear, hear, and a la,ugh)-but could
at the present state of Euro? and ray it
'''eta ley 11 Nth peculiar symptoms of quiete and tran-
-111,('N, / to induce us to choose this moment of, all
t;,f t,;),",1111 unusual reduction in our naval and 111
ili-
rth ."jiiStanents?-(llcar.) The third proposition
tit d taZey Rouse was called upon to affirm was, " That
lobe required to meet the present expenditure im
▪ r„• *„Perations of agriculture and diminish the
pf employment of labour in all branches of
industry, &c." He entirely assented to this
1t:4,1141°P; but what occasion there was for affirming
lot lion, Yet to learn.-(Hear, hear.) He feared that
of. lid Clentlemen on the other side of the House
th.ttl'aelt more of this subject before any great length
A,lu()Ph 'al3sed.-(Loud. cries of "Hear, hear,', from
• 11'434iticin benches.) The assertion of the resolu-
kel' cjerf°ot!ar true, and it would be matter for
140108-tr'sideration on some other occasion whether or
top''l,lll,les which bore on agriculture as well as ma-
(Tght not to be accommodated to the altered
P4rtttli the conntrye.--(llear, hear.) The Right
Ihi;"'d Pnan the President of 'the Board. of
.Trade_
Ito fillea-iLleed to invite the House to a discussion of
to
lest t;" of our recent commercial legislation ; but
oft 1,40. 1, :8,3 not properly the subject then before. the.
declined to follow him. The last proposition
%titel/41fishl311rable Gentleman's motion was, "That to
perk!, .stops se evils it is expedient that this House
attaii•teab, tq reduce the annual expenditure with all
deed whrei 31)'-ed, to an amount net exceeding the
tkes Peta.„.; within the last fifteen years has
fctiti',l4 to be sufficient fur the maintenance of the
guilel ''',l:l4lr, and dignity of the nation." Now, he
14 ies'iocd to affirm that proposition. It was true
tdeteg ti°3s the estimates .weio greatly reduced_,,
and
4? to,:: tubs( quint year they were augmented, d
to be augmented for several successive
tieteniell gl-) it would always be that whenever they
is)l ti• 41 naake reductions greater than. w.ere
feotbria-
to4try Litho
the sefety, and honour, and dignity ti
inn:mediate consequence would be a return
111,1,.'
c e expeeditine. He remembered that the lame
tt re:r'ed alter the reduction which the Honouiable
s,„"`tel i)r.Atontrost+, with the assisteece of the Whigs,
05111 bhnthc-' expenditure of 1822 ; and so it always
f ttr4 *_ Ceusiderrible credit had been given to the
k 7 1611144 n that held office fuzes short time in 183.4-35
es;ieStituates of that year; but as one of the
pCillete; beest)f that Government he Legged to say that the
Ipeeedia- ~,.Were those which had been framed by the
tik4ll tri Government, and which, having due regard
Gut '1 circumstances under which they took office,
feetlllo:4tlin et which he (ale. ....Laies) seas a teem-
the Ru,n.t expediett to telopt.-(Hear, hear.) He,
Ouse, instead of agreeing to the motion et

the Hen. Member for the Wo4t-lilding, would adcypt tho

preposition of the Itight lion. Gentleinan the oeeretary
of War, and go into CouiruiAt e of the whole llvu.e to
consider the estimate . lie for ono would go into that
Committee with as sincere a desire as any Hon. BieutkaT
to reduce as far as possible ad-safe the -csairnetce; which
were to be proposed to thetr.—(llcar, is aia)
Mr. M. 61IBSON fund the 'tight Hon. Gentleman
upon this motion pretty much in the setae mind now as
he was last year; and that he hail given a flr grass
factory view of the proposition than thu Lon. Gentle-
the Member.for.North Warwiclishire. The Hon. Mem-
ber for North Warwickshire hall not fdlen into the
error of refining overmuch upon the words c. f . the reso-
lutions; he did not hypereritatise, but he took the broad
meaning of the proposition in the souse in which it would
be understood by the public; and being an advocate for
the repeal of oppressive taxer, and, therefore; for a re-
duction of expenditare, he was perfectly consistent Li
voting for it. There was no other mode of submitting
the proposition than that which had been adopted by
his Lion. Friend (Mr. Cobden). if he had deferred it
until the estimates themselves came before the blouse,
in order that each particular item might be discussed, it
would have been impossible to explain his general views,
or to propound a plan upon erery minute detail. lie (Mr.
Gibson) voted for this proposition mainly because he was
desirous of seeing the policy carried out of removing the
taxes which impeded production, limited the field for the
employment bf labour, and prevented the progress of im-
provement. Put our taxes upon one side, and our military
and naval arnipnaents upon the other; and he would ask
what was the preferable course to be taken in the pre-
sent condition of England, with its vast population and
its limited field for the employment of !about? On the
.one hand the people were taxed in order to defend them
from some contingent danger that might possibly arise,
and we limited the field of employment, increased pau-
perism and crime, and prevented the spread of knon -
ledge, in order to have large defensive armaments to pro-
tect them against remote, imaginary, and contingent
evils; on the other hand, to weigh the probabilities of

foreign dangers, and consider whether it would not be
more rational to risk the remote contingencies, and give
the relief to industry which would accrue from the re-
peal of taxation. On balaucing the advantages upon one
side and the ether, with every desire to take that course
which was best for the country, ha had cometo the conclu-
sion that our defensive armaments must be considerably
reduced, and the surplus so created applied to the re-
peal of the taxes which pressed down industry, in-
creased pauperism and crime, and produced evil results
to the welfare of the community.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Honourable Gentleman the President of the Board
of Trade had not quite fairly represented the objects
of his Honourable Friend. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman said, " I will not consent to abandon the defences
of the country—l will not leave England unprotected
by an army and a fleet." But who asked the Right
Hon. Gentlemen to do so? Nobody bed ever asked
the House to do more than consider the probabilities of
danger from a fair and reasonable reduction in our de-
fensive armaments. His Hon. Friend had brought the
motion forward at a proper time; and by fixing upon
a year when the general expenditure of the country was
less than it was at present, he called upon the Executive
to explain why the increase upon that particular year
should become a permanent addition to the national ex-
enditure. It was not sufficient, upon a question of this
nature, for the Government to account for any temporary
increase arising out of special causes. What they were
asked for was, a reason why there should be a perma-
nent increase in the expenditure of nearly 6,000,0001.
since 1835.—(Hear, hear.) They must show either that
the protection and defences of the country in 1835 were
inadequate or that circumstances had arisen subse-
quently which called for an increased permanent ex-
penditure. It was not enough to talk of Oregon, Tahiti,
or Don Pacifico, f .pr they were special matters, and could
not be urged as grounds for a permanent annual
increase of expenditure. It was on such grounds as
these that his Hon. Friend the Member for the
West Riding brought forward his proposition.
The first question, then, was, were the arma-
ments of 1835 adequate to the defence of the country,
or were they not? He had frequently heard it said that
ery hasty and inconsiderate reductions had been made
in all the material preparations for warfare; and as such
a statement bore materially upon the question of whether
our defences were inadequate in 1835, he had taken some
little trouble to inform himself as to the real facts of the
case. He found, then, that in this year of destitution,
1835, there were in the dockyards 59,671 loads of tim-
ber; and in 1848, the date of the last return, there were
only 56,048 loads. Of another important article, deck
deals, averaging 40 feet in length, there were 32,145
loads in 1835, and only 22,311 loads in 1848. He further
found that in the important article of hemp there were
in 1835, the year of " destitutiou," 7,221 tons, and in
1848, the year of " abundance," only 5,067, being one-
third more in 1835 than in 1848. Next, as to tar. In
1835 there were 15,250 barrels, and only 8,977 in 1848.
Of fitted-rigging there were 52 sets in 1835, and only
47 sets in 1848. Of bawls of yarn there were 5,584
tons in 1835, and 3,554 tons in 1848. But no article
was of more importance than chain cables. Ho found
then that in 1835 there were 857 chain cables, and 645
in 1848. In 1835 there were 170 lower masts, and
160 in 1848 ; in 1835 there were 237 top-
masts, and 228 in 1848 ; in 1835 there were
52 bowsprits, and in 1848 54. He had thus gone
through a few of the principal articles of naval stores ;
and he thought the facts were strong in relation to the
argument that the defences in 1835 were inadequate to
the safety of the country. The Government would
forgive him for reminding them, as they had censured
his Hon. Friends for bringing forward this economical
proposition, when they were themselves disposed to re-
duce the expenditure, what might have been their posi-
tion at this moment, if they bad followed the policy
which they indicated to the House in 1848. They came
down to the House in 1848 2,000,0001. bchindhand-
-2,000,000/. deficit, not caused, he admitted, by their
own policy, but by circumstances over which they had
no control; and they actually proposed, with the ordi-
nary expenditure exceeding the revenue, to increase the
ordinary expenditure. Hai they pursued the policy
which they then indicated, instead of having now a sur-
plus of 2,000,0001., he was prepared to show they must
have had a deficit this year of more than that amount.
Had they, then, any reason to complain of those who
scrutinized the subject of the national armaments, be-
cause they showed how the expense was growing year
after ear? With regard to the army, it was open to
question the policy of maintaining the present scale of
military force now kept up in the United Kingdom.
Af,er the peace, in the sear 1816, the Noble Lord
now at the head of her Majesty's Government
foresaw that unless great efforts were made to
counteract it, the habit of having a large military force
would become engrafted upon the peop.le though in a
state of peace. What did the Noble Lord say in re.
terence to this question? Ile said—" Among the many
reasons urged for enormous peace establishments, the
most absurd appeared to him to be.the assertion that
they were necessary for our own security, in order to
avoid a speedy renewal of hostilities. The House cou'd
not fail to recollect that for twelve years Ministers had
been soothing the impatience of the country by stating
that the war was continued to prevent the necessity of
an armed peace; yet now they ventured to tell the people,
after all the sacrifices they had undergone, an armed
peace was all they had acquired." Lord Grenville, too,
said the same thing. Just as the war which ended iu
1815 caused the subsequent establishment of what the
Noble Lord very forcibly called a system of armed peace,
so each successive little military effurt had led to au in-
crease in our military establishments; and when the oc-
casion for that effort had pa.sed away we had not
returned to the position we had occupied before. The
same system still prevailed; and his Honourable Friend
was perfectly right in asking, not for the records of all
those particular and special occasions, but to ask the Go-
vernment, inasmuch as the onus probandi lay upon them,
to give come rational and intelligible grounds for the
permanent increase, mainly caused by our naval and
military defences, in our expenditure to the amount of
6,000,0001. a year. Our colonial policy bad heel) stated
as an argument for an increase in the army. Fresh
colonies had been added to the empire it might be said.
That was true ; but it did not answer the proposition of

his Hon. Friend, namely, was it reasonable that these
colonies, instead of being a source of strength, should
be a source of weakness by drawing upon us for money
and fir armies? His lion. Friend wanted to know
whether the people of this country should be taxed in
order to supply the means of defence to colonies well

able to defend themselves. Indeed, it was obvious that
the amount of the forces wo did send to them was quite
inadequate to prevent the invasion of an enemy, whilst
they were not entitled to, ask of us that which was
merely for their own police purposes, or their own in-
ternal regulation. Neither was it i•ssonable that we
should increase our military establishments for the pur-
pose of supplying troops to our colonies. He denied, in
the next place, that our increased military power was
for the protection of trade. Whenever there was any
interference with foreign powers, either by our fleets or
our forces, he received letters from his constituents im-
' ploring him to go to the Foreign-office, because their
trade was injured by it. At the present moment we had
an immense fleet in the Mediterranean, and the moment
there was interference in Greece ho received letters from
his constituents complaing of Admiral Parker stopping
merchant vessels. And very naturally so, because
they knew it was impossible to interfere with them
without directly or indirectly injuring our own interests.
To tell him, then, that the Mediterranean fleet was thus
protecting our traits and interest was a little too mueli.
rho American flag wasjust as much unmolested in every
port in the Mediterranean to the British flag, though it
it as not supported by the same amount of naval force. In
1848 we had 31 ships and 8,000 men in the Mediterra-
nean. Was it possible such a force could be viewed by
foreign powers as anything but a parade of armaments?
Could it have any effect on foreign nations but to excite
some feelings of apprehension that we had intentions of
invading some country, or interfering with its internal
affairs? This constant parade of our arms in foreign
countries had rather a tendency to provoke hostilities
and to excite jealousy and bad feeling in foreign nations.
We prided ourselves on having done something with our
sword for foreign trade; we
.fancied that the Chinese
war, which had ended in the necessity of maintaining a
large fitet on the Indian and Chinese stations, and keep-
possession of Hong-Kong, had opened fresh markets, and
would very materially extend the trade of the country.
What was the fact? Why, that our exports to China
and Hong-Kong weregraclually declining every yea; and
it was his belief, would go back very nearly to what they
were before we interfered at all. We should then
find ourselves in this position—that we should have
saddled ourselves with the necessity of maintaining a
large fleet in those seas, and expensive establishments.at
llong-Kong, without any corresponding advantage to
the trade and manufactures of this country. If the
House were asked to take the only rational course for
extending trade, by reducing the tea duties, the answer
was thet the state of the revenue would not admit of it,
alld exp:..diture was to !a:l,-,o that-7.e
afford to sacrifice so great a branch of the national
revenue. Any reasonsble person would infinitely pie.