The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-20 00:00:00

the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. To that
his objections were of a totally different nature. His
objection to that proposition was, that we were not at
present in a state to come to any perfect solution of that
question.— (Hear, hear.) He did not think they had,
either from New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land,
or any of those colonies, information sufficient to enable
them to come to a solution of the question.—(Hear,
hear.) It enieht be that it was difficult to find persons
who would give their time to legislative measures in two
chambers. He was net able to come to a decision even
on that part of the subject. In the next place, the ques-
tion arose if they had a second elective chamber, which
was to he some check on the more popular chamber,
how was it to he composed, and what was to be the
qualification of the electors? Were they to,le the
same electors as those who returned the lower cham-
ber, or different? When he introduced a Bill fur the
better union and government of the Canadas, he was for
some months in correspondence with Lord Sydenham,
the then Governor, who consulted persons of various
kinds and high station, some of them being judges, some
men who had conducted the administration of the colon),
and he, after long deliberation, was enabled to send a
tolerably perfect sketch of a Bill to introduce upon the
subject. But in this case the Government had received
no answer to any proposition of theirs. There fore, if it
might be wise hereafter to establish such a constitution
as two chambers, they were not now in a condition to
legislate for such a purpose. It was a subject cf the highest
importance. There were examples in our neighbourhood
at this time, though perhaps no great attention was paid
to them, which showed the importance even of de tails
in such questions. In Belgium and Holland they had
decided on having a second chamber, and that that
second chamber should be composed of persons having
a much higher qualification than the members of
the more popular assembly; but in adopting that quali-
fiscation the Belgian Constitution provided that a cer-
tain amount of land-tax should be paid. The taxes on
land and real property lately introduced in the consti-
tion of Holland were in the nature of our assessed taxes
and taxes on houses; and the consequence of that dis-
tinction, which might seem a slight one, was,•that in one
country (Belgium) you had great landowners and a
most conservative chamber; and in the other country—
he would not say they were not conservative—but men
residing and having large houses in towns,Aind whose
great expenditure took place in towns, and who were
therefore a totally different class from persons in the
second chamber in Belgium; showing how important an
error might be even in a matter of detail.—(lltit.i) He
really did not think the lion. Baronet the Megfiliber fur
Southwark, in dealing with this open question of the. C-
olonial Reform Association, was endowed wittL made eons-
plete knowledge of the affairs of all these colonies, and
the character of the population, either cf The. land
owners or of the people of the town of Sydney,
as to be enabled to speak confidently on the subject. It
was said that the constitution proposed by• •the—Hun.
Barcnet was modelled on the present constitution of this
country. Ile observed that one of tl e propositions in
the Hon. Baronet's new constitution was, that if two-
thirds of the two chambers should agree in reeking for
the removal of the governor he was to be removed.
That might be called an application of the principles of
the constitution of England to the colony perhaps, but
he certainly did not remember to have heard of the cc-
vereign of this country being removed by the resolution
of a proportion of the Members of the Legislative
Council.—(Hear and laughter.) With regard to a no-
minee council, therefore, it seemed to be a scheme so
unpalatable to the colonies, that such an alteration would
be received with surprise, and its repeal demanded, and
he could not, therefore, recommend the Committee to
adopt it. With regard to the second proposition, that
of the Honourable Baronet the Member for South-
wark. which was much the best alternative,
he thought they were not in possession of infor-
mation sufficient to guide them. It, indeed, the favour.
able breeses which had brought the intelligence from
New South Wales and South Australia—(A laugh)—
should bring word that the people at large could net
bear the notion of a single chamber, that might alter
the matter; bat they all seemed to think that, although
it might be advisable to have a second chamber in time,
they would object to a nominee chamber, and the time
was not arrived when they were able to say whet their
mind was upon the subject, and what form of second
chamber would most conduce to their wishes. If such
then were the case, he asked the Committee not to be
led away by the Hon. Member who spoke last, and
think they were endeavouring to do something oppres-
sive to the colonies, but that they would feel that, on tl.e
contrary, this was the introduction for the first time of
the representative element into these colonies; that
power was given them to elect their own legislator',
which they never had before, thus laying the founda-
tion of a free constitution, under which he hoped they
might long prosper.—(Cheers.)
Mr. ANSTEY said the Noble Lord who had just sat
down had so completely removed every difficulty raised
by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark and the
Hon. Member fur Northampt that he had almost
doubted whether he should address any °beer% ations to
the Committee. All the propositions e f the lion. Mem-
ber were of the most abstract and impracticable kind,
and his motion would do serious mischief to amend-
ments which, but for that, would have come b. fore the
Committee by this time. He believed that the colonists
cared nothing about the question of one or two chambers;
he knew that his instructions were to do his best to make
the assembly:of representatives a real representative chew.
ber. It had been asserted on both aides of the House that
they were not in possession of the opinions of the colo-
nists, the fact being that the Bill had been before them
two years at the least. The very circumstance of there
being no petitions to the House or the Crown—no me-
morials to the Minister—afforded the most conclusive
evidence cf the real sentiments of the colonists.— (Hear,
hear.) The only protest came from the nominee coun-
cil, and he knew that for years past this Legislative
Council of South Australia had been, on all important
questions in which taxation was concerned, opposed to
the declared will of those for whom they legislated. lie
need only allude to their conduct with respect to the
project for the endowment of religious establishments in
proof of this. Meetings in favour of the Bill had been
held in the colonies, and he hoped the Noble Lord I
would not consent to any delay beyond what was neces-
sary for the consideration of the various amendments
now before them. He believed it would he infinitely
more difficult for the people of Van Diemen's Land
and South Australia to obtain any reforms if the
amendment of the Hon. Baronet the Member fur
Southwark we re to succeed, than if the Bill of the Go.
vernment were to pass in all its integrity. The result
of that amendment would be the creation of a true
oligarchy, which, when the protecting power if the
Crown was withdrawn, would enter-into the full fruition
of power, which they would not fail to make lasting and
secure. Besides this, the Hon. Baronet had failed to
support his proposition by any authority derii el from
the colonists themselves', fur he could not view the private
opinions cf an individual governor as a colonies

authority, especially libel] Sir W. Denison himself;
whose able dispatch had been relied on for this purpose,
had stated them to be his pri*ate opinions, adding that
be could not take upon himself to may that they were
universal or general. He was of opinion that the scheme
of two chambers was in itself a bad scheme; that was to
say, it was not so good as one chamber only in colonies
situated like South Australia and Van Diemen's Land;
and he was also of opinion that it was only a better
scheme than the plan proposed by the Nob!e Lord of
having nominees of the Crown in a solitary chamber.
With respect to so much of Van Diemen's Land as the
amendment applied to, the authority of ,Sir William
Denison was against the Hon. Baronet, for the gore► nor
expressed his doubts whether in the whole colony a suf-
ficient number of parties could be found possessing the
requisite property and leisure to constitute, under this
Bill, a single House of Assembly. If so, what was to
become of the other House, which required a higher
qualification and an additional number of members.
Under all the circumstances cf the case it was his inten-
tion to vote for the original clause.—(Hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY said the difficulty under which he
laboured was the want of sufficient information on which
to form an opinion. As an abstract proposition he had
no hesitation in stating that a second chamber was de-
sirable, but being ignorant of the circumstances of the
colony, he thought the colonists ought to have the
power of carrying out that proposition when, and in such
manner, as they themselves might think most desirable.
In the first place, was an upper chamber desirable at

this moment ?. The composition of such a chamber he
would leave for future discussion. In January, 1848,
Governor Fitzroy expressed his opinion in favour
of an upper chamber, but from what had taken
place in the colony a considerable difference of opi-
nion seemed to exist. In a dispatch received from- Van
Diemen's Land, on the Bth April, 1850, and dated De-
cember 2, 1849, Sir W. Denison said that a sec ,nd
Chamber ought to be at once constituted by Parliament.
In a paper received on the 17th April, dated Adelaide,
Dee. 17, 1849, the governor gave a series of resolutions
passed by the Legislative Council, the result of which
was that an upper chamber was desirable, although some
doubt existed as to its composition. It appeared from
other resolutions that the colonists differed from a.*

governor, and did not w1;171a;-1;iiiei chambEr. Upon
the whole he (Mr. Aglionby) was in favour of an upper
chamber. Now if the House should express an opinion
in favour of two chambers, he wished to know whether
the Government would be prepared to carry out the
plan he had suggested, and give the colonists the power
of deciding at what time the second chamber should be
formed. He believed that our colonies would derive
great advantage from the introduction of the represen-
tative Element into a single chamber. In New Z a7and
the nominees had established a duty of from 12 to 15 per
ten'. on every article used in British shipping sent flow
this country. If the chamber had been elective, he
believed that such a step would never have been taken.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the Noble Lord seemed to con-
sider two chambers better than one, and an elective
chamber to be better than a nominee one. The ques-
tion then arose when these two elective chambers should
be constituted. The Noble Lord at the head of the co-
lonies said, " What am Ito de? Ido not know the state
f the colony." In such a case he (Mr. Roebuck) would
endeavour to point out de du.y of the Government. It.
%Ili not for the few colonists now in existence to decide
upon the future destinies of the hop( aid colonies of
Great Britt.ir.. It would not be right to Land over. a
question to be dealt with by a few eel°.
Liftg.
great Imperial
Parliameet ought t determine what would be
best for that large colonial empire which was about to
rise in Australia. The mother country sett out a por-
tion of her people who, under the flag, the power, and the
protection of England, planted themselves in those distant
parts of the world. Ile wished them to stand towards this
country in the relation of affectionate colonists, and that
every portion of our stretched-out empire should be go-
verned by those principles of freedom which prevailed
in'% this country. To accomplish that object we must
wake them part of our empire by making them free sub-
jeetl, united to us in our Imperical concerns, but manag-
ing their own local concerns according to their own local
knowledge.—(Hear, hear.) This was an important con-
sideration. How did we lose the United States of Ame- •