The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-21 00:00:00

STATEMENT OF LORD JOHN RUSSELL.

Mr. ROEBUCK, whose rising attracted general
attention, sad led to groat silence among the Members,
then put the question of which he had given notice. I
wish to ask, he said, the First Lord of the Treasury,
whether the Gov.rnmcnt will adopt any especial course
of conduct in con6cquence of a resolution passed in
-soother place on Monday last?—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—Sir,
House will allow me, in colteepence of the question
which the Hen surahle and Lcareel Gentle:nen has
put to me to make a steee:ne.it in reply to that quo:-
Lion. I find, upon consulting the minutes of the House
of Lords, that whit took place in that House is as
follows.—[The Noble Lord then read Lord Stanley's
motion as agreed to in the House of Lords on Monday
night, and which it will be recollected was carried by a
majority of 37.] —Now, Sir, that resolution which I have
just read, states in substance a general proposition with
respect to the rights and duties of the Government. It
avers that the rights and duties of the Government
are to secure to her Majesty's subjects residing in
foreign states the full protection of the laws of
those states. Now, Sir, I cannot consent so to limit
the rights and duties of the Government of this
country. I think, taking those words as being the de-
finition of the rights and duties of the Government c f
this country, it would imply that any state, however
despotic, may make nu law, however unjust end op-
pressive, and that it may be executed by the most corrupt
instruments, and that the Government of this country
may have nu right or authority to make any renion-
strance or intei fsro wi:h respect to that law. Now, Sir,
that is not the way which the laws of nations aro rut
into practice by mans' great nations of Europe. And, I
may say, still less of the United States.—(Hear, hear.)
They all feel that they are bound
Mr. ISRAELI—Mr. Speaker, I rise to order, but
with the greatest regret, because I do not wish to in-
terpose any observations during the communication
the First Minister of the Crown may f .el it his
duty to make to the House. But a question has been
asked of the Nohte Lord by an Hon. Member of the
most simple character; and, I am quite sure that if the
Noble Lord in making an answer to that ques-
tion should think it necessary to enter into details
connected with that question, the House would listen to
him, owing not only to tbo importance of the question,
but to the position of the Noble Lord; but I put it to
the House whether the Noble Lord, instead of riving an
answer to the question of the Hon. and Learned Member
for Bath, is not, on the contrary, entering into a
discussion.—(Chetrs from the Opposition benches.)
Those proceedings being a resolution in consequence of
a debate on a subject no doubt of the greatest interest
and importance, I can assure the Noble Lord that all
the gentlemen sitting on these benches have not the
slightest wish to avoid or prevent any discus-
sion in this House on that subject. If the Noble
liord wishes a discussion to take place, the Noble Lord
is at the head of the Government, and has control over
the time of this House; and if he will fix a fitting and
fair opportunity for Chet discussion, the Gentlemen on
my side of the House will be prepared to enter into
it.—(Order, order.) I apprehend, Sir, that I am in
order. I only wish to assure the Noble Lord that it is
my feeling. and I believe it will bo the feeling of the
House, that if we are to have a discussion, it should be
full, fair, and delibera'e.—(Hear.) I put it, therefore,
to the Noble Lord vellpther, instead of introducing this
discussion on a sudden, it would not be more fair to give
notice, and defer it till a future period.—(Hearrhear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL continued—Sir, the question
which has been put to me certainly may be thought a
simple one, but it is nevertheless general in its nature.—
(Hear, htar.) Now, I desire to make a statement
with respect to the course we mean to pursue,
but unless I am allowed to explain our con-
duct I must remain altogether silent.—(Cheers.) It
is for the House to decide whether I shall proceed or
not.—(Cries of " Go on, go on.") Sir, I have stated
the grounds why I think it is impossible for Government
to carry into effect, according to their own sense of duty,
the first part of the resolution which has been
carried by the House of Lords, and which we
know has been passed from the minutes of the House of
Lords.—(Hear, hear.) The latter part of the resolution,
which I nave likewise read,
conveys a vote of censure
upon the Government for the condnet they recently
pursued with reset:est to the affairs of Greece.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, I am certainly not
ruing to argue that question in detail ; but
I must say this, that we are not going in any
respect to alter tie course of conduct which we have
thought it right to pursue in respect to foreign
powers in consequence of that resolution.—(Tre-
mondous cheers.) Now. Sir, if the House will
permit me I will go on—(Bear, hear)—and I will say
that there is another question that might fairly be in
the contemplation of llonouraidc Members, and that is
whether the Government, thus dissenting from the
general rule with respect to the law of nations laid down
by the House of Lords, and refusing to conduct itself
according to the resolution that has been carried,
it is not their duty
to resign the government into
the hands of those ho will ant upon that resolu-
tion.—(hear)
induces me to refer to different occasions, when similar
Sir, a question of this kind naturally
resolutions, in spirit at least. have been rested. Nosy,
140 years ago the House of Lords came to a resolution
that it would not be consistent with the iutere,t and
honour of this country to make any peace with Franck.,
under a treaty which would restore possession of the
Indies and Spain to any branch of the house of it carbon.
—(Hear, hoar.) The Executive Government, to
spite of the address in the House of Lords,
which was carried on a division, proceeded to

in die a treaty with France, and that treaty
loft Slide and the Indica in the possttssion of a
branch of the house of Bourbon.—(Cheers.) Not many
years ago, in the tnoneh of June, 1533, no less a person
than the Duke of Wellingtoa moved an address to the
Crown on the subject or the foreign policy of this coue-
t-y so far ca it regarded Portingal.—(Hear, hear.)
Fai Grey, in replying to the mutton that was they
mole, is reported to have declared that be ehou'd c
eider that cddress as a vote of censure, and as a stigma
upon Government, but, nevertheless, that resolution
upon a division was carried.—(hear, hear.) Earl
Grey, however, continued in the eencution of
the policy that he had previously adopted, and my
Noble Friend near me declared in this House, that he
should not swerve f.tonit the policy which had been thus
adopted.—(Cheers.) Sir, I believe the conduct of the
Executive Government in these two cases was accord-
ing to the constitution of this country.—(Cheers.)
And I believe that a change in the Government result-
ing from the resolution of the House of Lords with re-
spect to the conduct of the Executive Government of
this country would be contrary to the constitution of
this country—(Cheers)—and while it might make
great confusion in the State, it would lead to none
which would not be dangerous to the House of Lords
itself.—(Cheers.) I believe that placing upon the Hoeie
of Lords the etteeht and responsibility of coetrollieg the
Executive Government of this country would soon piece
the House of Lords in a position which it
had never hitherto oceuried, and which it
ceull not safely hold.--(Ladd cheers.) Sir, it
these are my opinions, and they certainly are, I
cannot consent to surrender the reins of pewer in
conecuence of the res action which has been arrived
at by the House of Lerdn but, at the same
time, I will not deny that tho resolution,
carried as it has been, is a matter of great
importance.—(Hear, hear.) I will not deny that it will
tteeply affect the comluet of f ,reign powers, but, Sir, the
remedy, I should have thought, were it not for certain
circumstances, was easy and ohvous.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentkman the Member f &telt ingham, who
lately interregaettd.m is himself in close political and
party connexion with the Noble Lord who is reported to
have made this motion in the other House of Parliament.
If he had givNt notice of some ruction in this House,
the House coeld then have decided on the merits of that
motion (Hoar, hear) arm if they had agreed
with the House of Lords, they could have no
doubt or hesitation as to the course which her
Majesty's Government should have pursueie—(Cheers.)
But, Sir, by the fair and honourable iiiterpretation of
the conduct of the lion. Gentleman, and of these who
act with him, if they had leelicred in the soundness of
that resolution they would no doubt have thought it
their duty to b ing forward that resolution in this
Hon te, in . which, b,sid .s its being the house
where all the administration of the Crown is con-
trolled end advised, there is this obvious advantage,
!het ill this fleece sits the Minister who is charged with
the atietirs of that depirtmene—(Leud cheers.) But
there is as honeerable explanation of such conduct, and
such explatietien no doubt is. that there who share the
general peliiicel opinions of the Nobk, L'a-d whores I
have mentioned, do net sleirc in the view he tekes with
leepect to th:l affairs of Greece, and the getenee foreign
peney of the Goternment.—(No, ) they had
ege-ael with him there would b no excuse for not allow-
ing my Noble Frond to nuke his own dereace in this

House.—(cheers.) Bat if that is the case, I can only
say the Government will continue in the course that we
hare hitherto followed with respect to our foreign po-
l'or. The Hon. ald L'oarned Ge:ltle man (Mr. Itoehuck),
if be wishes to make any motion on this subjec+, shall
hay,: the earliest possible clay which can he given
for that purpose; but so long as we c,,ritinue in the
Government of this country I can enawer for my Noble
Friend that he will act, nor as the Minister of Austria
—((;heers)—or of Rustia--(lte-:ewt,d end protracted
cheering)--or of France—or of any other country—but
as the Minister of Eegl ind.—(Loud cheery.) The
honour of England and the interests of England—such
are the matters within cur keeping, and it is to those
interests and to that honour that eft flirts will in future
be, as they have hitherto been, direeted.—(The Noble
Lord resumed his sef:t amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. DIS3AELI said, as there was no question before
the Holm', he wi,hed, with the permission of the House,
to males rte: answer to the insinuation which the Noble
L )tel had thrown out, to the ctrect that he (Mr.
Disra,li) nor any other Gentleman had brought
forward any motion on the question which
had recently engaged the attention of the Huse of
Lords, when the Noble Lord at the head of the depart-
ment of Foreign Affairs might have had an opportunity
of defending hioaseV. He ('cTr. Disraeli) would in-
form the House why that question had not been brought
forward in that House. Tney would have bean told, as
they had ever been told, that the negotiations were pend-
ing, and then any discussion would have been deprecated.
on the subjeJr. Ia another place Vtat deprecation was
allele. on this very subjrct by her Majesty's Ministers.
IItT Majesty's Ministers could not sing one song in one
place and another in Otis House. If that question had
been deprecrdel in the House of Lords because nego-
tiations were pending, of course that objection would
have been made, as it had alWays been made,
if the question ad been moon d in this House.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He b gated leave to inform
the Noble Lord that ho had Inen very imperfectly
informed as to the relations between Gentlemen in this
House and the other House of Parliament, and as to
rho amount of sympathy betwton them. Allsough
the Noble Lord ss ill not come forward himself
to ask the verdict of the House—(Cheers)—but
hat conveniently thrown out a hint of the obvious
and honoured machinery already existing, he could as-
sure the Noble Lord that when the question was really
brought bAre the House, that he (kir. Disraeli) should
be prep-tred to uphold the decision of the other House.
Mr. ROEBUCK said th,t, k.ot entirely agreeing
ivith the elns:itational iketrine of the Noble Lord, he
would propose a resolution to-morrow according to
he terms in which the Noble Lord had suggested,
because he himself wished to test the sense of
the people of this country on the foreign policy
of the Government. and with the permission of the
Noble Lord, he would move the following resolutioa :
" That the principles which have hitherto regulated the
foreign policy of her Majesty's Government are such as
were required to preserve untarnished the honour and
dignity of this country, and in times of unexampled
difficulty, the Lest calculated to maintain peace between
England and the various nations of the world."

Lord JUIIN RUSSELL said that to-morrow night
the Government had given notice of a vote of su'ply,
but he should ha very glad to waive the orders of tbe
day in order to afford an opportunity for the discussion
of the queetion.
Mr. DISRAELI suggested that the motion should be
postpone:l until Monday. lle was sure the Noble Lord
would not wish to take the House by suprise.
Lord JOIN RUSSELL said that ho was quit, ready
that the motion should come on at the earliest opportu-
nity polsible; but if the Lion. and Lcarticd G*htleinan
ens quite willing he should have no objection to the
motion being postponed till Monday.
Mr. ROEBUCK sail that so great was his ai;sire that
this subject should ha perfectly and fairly discussed in
that House, that he thought it due to the Rouse to defer
the motion till Monday.
Tito mAttr then dropped.
DELIVERY OF LET tEns AND NEWSPAPERS

ON SUNDAY.
Mr. LOCKE roso to ask :ho Government whether, in
regard to the recent decision respecting the non-delivery
of letters on Sundays, there would no any objection,
within certain prescribed hours, to allow parties to ob-
tain their letters on personal application being made for
them.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was un-
derstood to say that he could not answer the question.
• Mr. W. J. FOX said that he had just learned that
the newspapers of the metropolis had been informed
only this afternoon that the tt4nal f4cilities would not be
affacild them next Sunday fir the delivery of their
parcel=, and he wished to know whether it would not be
passible to afford them a little longer time to make their
preparations for this change?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he could not hold our, any hopes of any such delay.
lie had not the slightest doubt, and he had stated it at
the time, that the recent decision of the House would
lead to great inconvenience, and he was glad to see that
Hon. Members were beginnine.; to find it out, and he
hoped in due time that they would arrive at such a state
of mind as to lead them to a reconsideration of their
late decision,—(Cheers and laeghter.)
Me. OSBORNE asked the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer why, if ho felt bound to carry this resolution of the
House into effect, he had not carried out the resolution
to which the House agreed, on the motion of Dr. Bow-
ring, with reference to the paying of the whole of the
revenue of the country into the Exchequer?
The CEIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER begged
to remind his Hon. Friend that the resolution to which
ha referred was not binding on the Government in the
seine sense as the resolution relating to the regulations
of the Post-office.

Mr. LOCKE gave notice that he should, on an early
day, call the attention of the "base to the effects of
iti late decision wits respect to the non-delivery of letters
on Sundays, with a view to the reversal of it.
MERCANTILE MARINE BILL.

On the motion for the ,eaoad reading of this Bill,
Mr. RICARDO wished to inquire in what form the
Bill was to he brought forward on this second reading?
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he would take an oppor-
tunity of stating the new provisions in the Bill.
In answer to Mr.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the alterations in the
Bill were only on the mode of carrying out its objects,
and did not stfeet its principle.
Mr. HERRIES presented several petitions against
the Bill, aid sufr,g'ested that the second reading. should
be delayed owing to the great alterations which had
been made in the measure since it was last before the
House.
After a short discussion,
Mr. LABOUCHERE rose to move the second read-
ing of the Bill, and said, although the subject to which
it related did not posses.s any topic of interest connected
with party stru4,g6s, yet it was of the greatest conse-
quence to one of the most important interests
1.1 the country ; and he threw himself on the indol
genes of tiro 1101 m while be stated the alterations
which he prod to make in the Bill. The House
would recollect that he stated era a previous occasion,
that while the Goverment would firmly adhere to
what they believed toe ealential principles of the
meaittre, ye: regl7d to the roachinery by
which those principles were to he carried out., Ow.),
ere anx:lous to obtain the support of the great body of
the shipping iwerest of this Country; and he was now in
is condition to e.o,ure the Vegas that ha proposed the
5500nd reading with the cordial upprolyrion of that in-
terest, not only in regard to the obj-et of
the measure, but a:so with reference to the
mode in which it was to be carried out.
The first principle of the Bill wad to put an end to the
indiscriminate discharge of mates and masters of vessels

that • hal hitherto taken place ; tl:o -second
eas to put an end to the system of
crimping which had been a disgrace to the naval
service of the country; and the third object of the mea-
sure was to place the diseipline of the merchant
service of this country upon a much better footing.
Not only the shipowner?, but ho believed the whole
of the merchant service were in favour of the Bill. It
had been said that the great objection to the Bill
was, that its operation was too much in favour of
centralization. He bad felt the weight of that objection;
and proposed to remedy it by the amendments on the
measure he intended to propose. Ho proposed to
institute local boards in all ports that were registered
to the extent of 30,000 tons on the shipping of goodi.
He also proposed to appoint shipping officers, whose
salaries were to be regulated by the Beard ofTrade. He
proposed to give to the local board a concurrent jurisdic-
tion with the Board of Trade relative to the conduct of
captains of vessels. With respect to the coasting
trade, he did not . propose that it should be necessary
for vessels in that trade to have captains that had
passed an examination, as was necessary in the other
branch of the scrvi re. The -.Right lion. Gentleman,
aficr referring at some length to the alterations he pro-
posed in the measure, concluded by moving the second
reading of the Bill.
Mr. HUME had heard but very imperfectly the state-
ment of the Right lion. Gentleman, but ho agreed'with
him that the system upon which our maritime hey was
founded was complicated and confused. (near,
hear.) The various acts which bore upon it
ought to ho collected and consolidated ; that was the
opinion of the commercial interest iiself, and" he
regretted that this course had not been adopted in prefer-
ence to introducing the Bill.—(Bear, hear.) lie, how-
ever, suggested that the Bill should he delayed, in order
that the new clauses should be printed and considered,
and then it might be possible so to frame the Bill in Com-
mittee as to make it desirable to adopt it for a fiev months.
Ho therefore proposed, without condensidug the prin-
ciple of the Bill, that this debate should be adjourned
till te-morrow weolt.—(Hear, hear.)
Admiral BOWLES hoped the Hon. Member would
not press his amendment, for at this period of the ses-
sion it was quite unless to delay a Bill for a week with any
hope of afterwards currying it through. He knew from
experience that this Bill was desired by the maritime
body, and he hoped it would be passed at once.--(Hear.)
Mr. HERRIES rose to support the amendment, and
said he thought the proposed amendment ought to to
prietsd and circulated amoriest the shipowners generally.
And he must here deny that the great body of ship.
owners were favourable to the Bill. Every lion. Mem-
ber ought to be at liberty to approach the discussion of
the Bill in Commit ee according to the view which he
should then take of i', if he consented for the prescnt to
waive his opposition.
Mr. LABOU(HERE said be was quite willitna to ac-
cede to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
if the House would consent to the seconding reading.
Now, in this case he could assure the Hcuse that when
printed, they would not find the Bill so objectionable a©
many appeared to anticipate.
Mr. CA RD WELL said that the Shipowners' Society
of Liverpool had agreed to withdraw their opposition for
rho present, reserving to themselves, however. to pursue
any course in C.113111i0C,: which they might then think
necessary. As he had already stated, he thought he
might state that the shipowners and merehants gene-
rally, had entered into the subject in a spirit of libe-
rality and fairness which did them honour. Under
the circumstances, he should not epeeae the eecoed
reading, but should give effect in Commi,tee to the
views of his constituents.
'Sir PECHELL complained that this Bill was a
wide departure from the principle of the Bill as origi-
nally propored, and it contained several important
clanier, which could only be brought befere the country
by adjourning tbe present debate.
Lord JOCELYN also recommended the aeijcurnment
of the debate, for the same reasons.
Mr. CLAY said he wished especially to direct the at-
tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the

Board of Trade t the importance, if not the nrcessi!y,
or yielding to the often•repea'ed request of an zyljourn-
ment ef the debate, by thu representatives of seaport
towns. His own constitutents, to whom he had paid a
three weeks' visit, for the purpose of consulting their
wishes with regard to this Bill, were strongly opposed in
particular to its centralising character, and in justice to
them he thought a postpcnemcnt was due.
Mr. HOFFATT said he had come to the House with

the ktention of opposing the Bill, but iu the preset)

state of the businWs, he tooommended that the MI
should be printed at a distant day, on the distinct un.
derstanding that it had as yet undergone no discussion..

Lord J. PvIANNERS recommended that the Bi:
should be referred to a SQleet Committee.

Mr. REYNOLDS expressed his intention of opposing
the Big in its present form, if now persevered in. •
Mr. POIOTER said he could deny upon authority that
the shipowners of the United Kingdom had given their
approbation to this Bill, and read a long list of seaports
whence letters had come, strongly disapproving of its
provisions. •
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said there were three
important principles involved in this Bill, and as the
proposition of the Government, that those principles
might be discussed, on the question that the Speaker
leave the chair, appeared to him perfectly proper, he
hoped the Hon. Member for Montrose would withdraw•
his opposition.
Mr. BE ADLAM said that upon a due consideration
of the new provisions introduced into this Bill. he did
not see that they'contained anything which could render
fuitter discussion necessary.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he hoped the Hon. Member
. .

for Montrose would withdraw Lis amendment. The
Right lion. Gentleman at the head of the Board of
Trade had taken great pains to bring the Bill into its
present form, and if the Honourable Member's amend-
ment were carried there could be no hope of the Bill
passing this session.
Mr. fIUME then consented to withdraw the amend-
ment, on condition that the new provisions of the Bill
should be printed immeliately, and pimed in the bands
of the Members.

Lord JOAN RUSSELL said ample time would he
given to consider the Bill.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill read
a second time.