The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

EVEN ING, PEER ITAIt V 1

-(Loud cheers.) In politics, it was true, he had created
some enemies, though not very many, in this country, where
he was best known—(Cheers)—but no man had adorned the
judgment-seat with brighter faculties ; he possessed the
highest order of talents ; his integrity was incorruptible ; his
intellect was first-rate, and he thought it hard that a man who
had risen to pre-eminence by means so honourable, should
be attacked fur party purposes in terms so severe as those used
by the Noble Lord. He was sure that Lord Lyndhurst would
not have spoken of any political opponent in such terms in his
absence.—(Loud cheers.) But was this all that was unge-
nerous ? 'I he Noble Lord relied on the use of some particular
expressions attributed to Lord Lyndhurst ; and he was be.
frayed into saying that it was not for his talents, that it was
not for his faculties, that it was not for his judicial knowledge,
that it was not for his virtue, that it was not for his integrity—
he was raised to the woolsack, but that his Right Hon. Friend
recommended him to it on account of his hostility to Ireland.
—( Cheers.) He was sure that upou more calm reflection the
Noble Lord would not have used those expressions. Certain
expressions had been attributed to Lord Lyndhurst in the
House of Lords, which, within five or six days after they had
been used, he positively denied—( No, no, and Hear, hear)—
n the tense in which the were taken. Lord
Lyndhurst used those expressions in the presence of
the First Lord of the Treasury (Lord Melbourne),
and in the presence of the President of the Council (Lord
Lansdowne), and they never commented upon those expressions,
which it would have been their duty to do if they had under-
stood them in the sense attributed to them. He would now
pass from this subject by assuring the Noble Lord that he heard
him speak of Lord Lyndhurst in the terms which he did, with
the greatest pain. He would now return to the meeting at
Clontarf, from which he had digressed, and he begged of the
Hause to attend to the dates, which were material to a right un-
tler-tanding of the case. The requisition for convening the
tneeting was signed on the 27th of September, and on Satur-
day the 29th a proclamation was issued of a very
peculiar character. The Lord-Lieutenant was then
in England for the benefit of his health, and his
attention was directed to the proclamation. Mr.
O'Connell had often before alluded to the display of infantry
attending the repeal meetings, he said that they were superior
to those which the Duke of Wellington commanded at the
battle of Waterloo, and better than those whom Napoleon led
to Moscow. But in the requisition for the Clontarf meeting,
allusion had been made for the first time to repeal cavalry.
He would not read the proclamation.—( Cries of
"Do ; do." The R;glit Honours ble Gentleman
then read the proclamation convening the meeting. )
He would now call the attention of the House to the state of
Ireland at that time. Immense multitudes had assembled ;
those violent assemblages had increased. There were the meet-
ings at Mullaghtnast, there were other important meetings at
the Conciliation Hall. Then at last came the proclamation
with respect to the 11 Feting at Clontarff.—( Hear, hear.) It
had been asserted that this was to be the last meeting. Why,
what was the fact? Why, they had the words of Mr. O'Con-
nell himself, dated at Mullaglisnast, in which he stated that
five or six meetings were yet to come, and that the do-
nothing policy of the Government would not heal the
sores of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) At this time the proclama-
mation issued. Upon that event taking place, he (Sir James
Graham) summoned the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the
Lord Lieutenant and the different members of the Privy
Council. This was on the 9th of October. They deliberated
on the proclamation, they reconsidered it, and they thought it
was necessary the military proclamation should be withdrawn.
—( Hear, hear.) At least that the word " group" should be
substituted for "troop."
Mr. WALLACE—WiII the Hon. Baronet state to the House
the new proclamation ?
Sir J. GRAHAM—Certainly. The Right Hon. Baronet
then read the substitution for the proclamation, several parts of
which created considerable laughter in the House. The Go-
vernment then deliberated whether the altered proclamation
had materially changed the facts. It was thought it had not,
and it was then considered necessary that the Lord Lieutenant
arid the Lord Chancellor, who were at that time in London,
should proceed immediately to Dublin, having authoriiy, imme-
diately after their arrival, to do whatever they might think ne-
cessary. The Lord Chancellor and the Lord Lieutenant ar-
rived in Dublin on the Friday, and after weighing the whole
proclamation—a proclamation that had been posted round
Dublin for 30 miles—a proclamation which was known at four
o'clock on Saturday afternoon, they thought it their duty to
adopt the course they had done. He was happy
to say—and he did so with the greatest pleasure—
that Mr. O'Connell had used his utmost exertions,
and those exertions had been eminently successful in prevent-
ing the loss of life.—( Great cheering.) The Government
tohbel e r Lorderesult
he Member mhe
r f
was convinced that the simplest mode of arriving at the truth
twas thei course o they h yo
nhdaodnhad asked adopted.—(Hear.)ked
what
had been
The Noble
of the proceeding of the Government? He would tell that
Noble Lord, that advantages of the utmost importance and
benefits of the greatest extent had already taken place. There
There had been an increase of employment; tilhaeta,r.i)
had been peace in Ireland for the lastthreeunbtehsfi.d—es(

had been proved , that without the extreme stretch of the law,
they had overcome a most dangerous principle.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord had said that the Government had occupied
Ire
—(eile so, ar, hear.) Most certainly did
when it was attempted to
hlrelsa say
yd btyha military itlhiteay ryhf force.—(Hear, ced.on
wrest Ireland from her Majesty be force.—( Hear,
hear.) Her Majesty's Government had been convinced
that there was a design to tamper with the military—( Hear)
and could the Noble Lord say, under such circumstances, that
the Government was not bound to take the precaution they
had done ?—( Hear, hear.) What had been the conduct of the
Government upon the subject? Why, until the month of
March, so far from adding to the army in Irtland they were
reducing it.—( Hear, hear.) He had a return, which had been
moved for in the other House of Parliament, and that showed
the lank and file in Ireland from -1830 to 1844.—(Hear,
hear.) Now, on the Ist of January, 1844, there was rank
and file in Ireland amounting to 21,257.—( Hear.) In
1833, and 1834, what was the state of the rank and file?
Why, in 1833, it was 23,928—( Hear )—in 1834 it was
`23,844, and between the Ist of September, 1841, and the 10th
f March 1843, during which the .‘ monster" meetings began,
the force in Ireland was reduced by the withdrawal of two regi-
ments of cavalry and twelve battalions df infantry, leaving four
battalions of infantry and one regiment of cavalry.
Mr. WALLACE wished to know what the numbers were
in 1841-1843.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that in 1841 the numbers were
14,637 ; and in 1843, 14,406.—(Hear, hear.) He ( Sir J.
Graham) must admit, with the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London, that it was an unwise policy to hold Ire-
land to this country by military force. Such a course could
never be looked upon as sound policy. He would now glance
at the measures taken by the Government, and those which they
were now prepared to take. The Noble Lord and the Right Hon.
Gentleman had gone upon most erroneous premises, and they
were unable to discover any thing very slew with respect to Ire-
land. As to the tenure of land, the Commission issued by the
Government had touched upon every point to which the
Noble Lord and the lion. Member for Waterford had ad-
verted._..( Hear, hear.) He was supported by all authority that
the law of ejectment was beneficial to Ireland—that the law
had proved highly beneficial. These subjects, however, it was
of plantations was equally so, and that the law of subletting
contended on the part of the Government should undergo re-
vision, and if any alteration was necessary they should be made.
With respect to the law of landlord and tenant the Noble Lord
had proposedito increase the number of stipendiary magistrates
The Hon. Member for Waterford said that her Majesty's Go-
vernment had raduced the number of 4ipendiary magistrates.
Now, he begged the House to attend to the facts he was about
to read. The number of stipendiary magistrates in 1838,
1839, 1840, and 1841, under the administration of the Noble
Lord opposite, amounted to 59. In the estimates for 1841,
the Government took a vote for 59 stipendiary magistrates in
Ireland. This was at a very curious period, namely, on the
2.Bth of July, 1841.-4 Hear, hear.) It was then that the
Noble Lord and his colleagues bethought themselves that the
time had arrived when it was expedient to add to the number
of stipendiary magistrates, having had for four years only 59.
Or, the 15th of June the addition commenced, for on that day
two were added. On the 28th of July two more were added,and
on the 6th of August one more was added, and on the very
day that Lord Melbourne resigned the seals of office into her
Majesty's hands, another addition was made to the number. In
the course of two months seven new m istrates wereappointed.
Now, the case would not be perfect if hage did not contrast it with
the conduct of her Majesty s
present Government. They did
not consider it necessary to maintain the appointments of those
seven magistrates, but as soon as vacancies occurred, four of
these gentlemen were appointed to the situations, and these
gentlemen were firm supporters of the late Government. The
lion. Member for Waterford had laid some stress en the ques-
tion of national education. He (Sir James Graham) had to
state to the House that it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government, in the estimates of the present year, to propose
a considerable increase to the grant for national education. It
was also intended by her Majesty's Government to place the
Roman Catholics of Ireland on the same footing
with respect
to charitable bequests as the Roman Catholics and Protestant
Dissenters of England. He wished before he sat down, to
allude to the question of the franchise in Ireland.
It was the intention of her Majesty's Government
to introduce a new Registration Act for Ireland,
and to propose an extension of the county franchise.
It was the intention of the Government to deal in some mea-
sure
with the franchise of cities and towns. By the
law any person was deprived of his franchise
if
he
ere
pay any one of the little local taxes for which he was
liable.
In Dublin there were no less than twenty such local taxes,he
and if a person were to omit the payment of one them,of
presentttedto
would be liable to lose his franchise. This was vexatious, and
after all was an insufficient, security. It was no test of solvency.
Hut since the passing of that Act, the Poor-law Act had been
passed, and poor. rates established. It was proposed by the
Government, that for the maintenance of the franchise it

should be necessary to pay the borough rates, the jury cess,
and the poor-rates only. The Noble Lord had stated that
his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had described the Bill of
Lord Alorpeth as one that had been introduced under false
. .

colours. It was true that his Noble Friend had made use of

such an expression, but he did so in reference
to the terms of the Bill, as it was stated that it was a Bill to
define the franchise ; whereas it was not only a Bill to define
the franchise, but also materially to alter it. It was on this
ground that his Noble Friend had said the Bill liEd been intro-
duced under false colours. The Noble Lord opposite had
alluded to the judicial appointments under her Majesty's present
Government, and had stated that it was impossible to make proper
appointments from the Conservative members of the bar in Ire-
land. Now, what was the fact ? ,Who were the counsel engaged by
the traversers in the late trials?—( Hear, hear.) He thought
there were seven or eight counsel employed, and, with the
exception of Mr. Pigot, Mr. Sheil, and Mr. Monahan, were
Conservatives. Mr. Moore was a Protestant, and was the
Solicitor-General of the late Government. He ( Sir James
Graham) now approached a most important subject. His
Right Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, had been
asked to put a construction upon the oath taken by the Catholic
Members. He hoped his Right Hon. Friend would not an-
swer that question. It was not an oath imposed by him, but
an oath imposed by the Legislature. He ( Sir J. Graham) did
not think there was any advantage to be derived in a discus-
sion as to the construction of an oath. When the Legisla-
ture gave the Roman Catholics a full participation in the
rights conferred by the Constitution it gave it in
consideration only of their taking that oath ; and having done
so full confidence was placed in them by the Legislature. He
would, for a moment, turn to the observations of the Noble
Lord with respect to the Established Church. As he under-
stood the meaning of the Noble Lord, it was that an equality
with respect to religion should be observed in Ireland. In
passing, he could not abstain from saying that the plain object
uf this motion, was to take the reins of power out of the hands
of her Majesty's present Government. He imagined, under
these circumstances, that the Noble Lord might have stated
some distinct policy on a matter of such importance.—(Cheers
and ironical cheers.) Was the Noble Lard prepared to propose
a system of perfect equality? How were they to make that equa-
lity? Were they prepared to endow the Roman Catholics in
the same manner as members of the Established Church ? He
thought that the Presbyterians and the Protestant Dissenters
of this country would not very well like to be taxed for such a
purpose.- The Noble Lord had himself deprecated the voluntary
principle; The 'division of the revenues of the Church be-
tween.Catholics,and Protestants would be the source of endless
.strife and implacable animosity.—( Hear, hear,) He was sorry
to have Occupied the attention of the House for so long a time.
With respect to the Protestant Church in Ireland, he did not
approve
,of any'.-of the nostrums which had been offered on
the otter side of the House for its maintenance. The
theasurft whirh 'had been suggested were inconsistent with
the, pviiiciide_which regulated the Protestant State of Eng-
land, arid. which was decidedly favourable to a Protestant
Chtirtli:;L:(Heir, hear.) That Church had been established

by the Reformation—had been confirmed by the Revolution—
and had been guaranteed by the Act of Settlement. The Act
of Union had strcnghened the establishment of that Church,
and it should not be overthrown by a Repeal Association, or
by a body of conspira'ors, such as hal recently hem)
convicted in Ireland.—( Hear, hear, from Colonel Sibthorp.)
He had now gone through all those topics of the speeches of the
Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentleman, and though he had
touched upon them but imperfectly, yet, still he had stated his
opinions candidly and fairly, and no man could say that he had
not spoken frankly._( Hear, hear. ) He could not say that the
Noble Lord, in seeking to displace the present Government, had
been equally candid and explicit.—(hear, hear.) If the
house thought her Majesty's Government had acted
unwisely in strengthening the hands of the executive
in maintaining the laws—why let them so declare by their
votes that they were in favour of the policy of the Noble Lord ;
but if they approved of the manner in which the Government
had discharged their duty to their Sovereign and the country—
why then let the House by a decisive vote negative the motion
of the Noble Lord.—( Cheers. )
An HON. MEMBER then moved the adjournment of the
debate, which was agreed to.
The Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
Horne adjourned at a Quarter pact Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 13.
These Lordships met at Five o'Clock.
TITHE COMMUTATION.
Lord LYTTELTON presented a petition from the Rev.
Charles Miller, complaining of the provisions of the Tithe
Commutation Act, as injurious to the clergy.
EARL DUNDONALD'S INVENTIONS.
Lcrd BROUGHAM gave notice that he should or, Thurs-
day next bring under the consideration of their Lordships the
inventions of a Noble Friend of his, Earl Dundonald.
The Noble Earl wished to represent to the House the great
expense he had been put to in perfecting these inventions.
OATHS OF ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Lord STOURTON gave notice that on the day most conve-
nient to their Lordships, either on Friday or Monday, he pur-
posed to bring before their Lordships the construction of the
Homan Catholic oath, and he stated to their Lordships what he
conceived to be the fair and honest meaning and construction of
that oath. Ile trusted he should not trespass too long on their
Lordships' time if he was permitted for a few moments to call
their attention to some circumstances connected with that oath.
He did not at all mean to try to influence or act upon that
opinion of their Lordships; but still he should say that he
thought there was quite enough to warrant him in bringing
the subject before the House; and he therefore on Friday should
call the attention of their Lordships to the mode in which the
Roman Catholic oaths were constructed.
The Bishop of EXETER presented a petition, praying
that the House would adopt such means as would secure the
spiritual education of the humbler classes.
Lord BEAUMONT wished to know when it would suit the
Government to bring forward the measure relating to the con-
solidation of the turnpike-trusts in England ?
The Duke of WELLING roN said that the matter would be
brought before the House either on Thursday or Friday.
Earl FORTESCUE presented a petition from Belfast, com-
plaining of the present state of Ireland. The petitioners
stated that they apprehended civil war, and that though
the use of power might be effectual for the suppression
of disorder, it could not remove discontent. They also
complained of the inefficient state of the represen-
tation of Ireland, as compared with that of England,
In conclusion, they prayed the House to adopt such measures
as were best calculated to avert the dangers now impending, and
to prevent the recurrence thereof.
THE STATE OF IRELAND.

The Marquis of NORMANBY, on rising to call the atten-
tion of the House to this subject, said—There were subjects of
such paramount and urgent importance in the minds of a
speaker, that they completely banished all considerations of self.
It was this alone which had induced him to encounter the diffi-
culty, and to incur the responsibility, of bringing before their
Lordships a subject of such great magnitude as that of which
he had given notice. He entertained feelings of such inten-
sity as to the present danger and as to the future prospects of
Ireland, that whatever other disqualification he might have, he
should at least address them with that earnestness which was,

he believed, the best passport to their Lordships' attention:
But he had another inducement to address their Lordships on
this subject; that even now, in the midst of all the excite-
ment and agitation—to which he was known to be opposed—
he daily received proofs from different parts of the country
of the kindly recollection retained by a kind-hearted people of
one whom they truly believed to have had their interest at
heart. No one would deny that the present state of that
country imperieusly called for the immediate attention of Par-
liament.—( Hear. ) One year since there was an agitation in
that country which the moderate in Ireland regarded with
disfavour, and in this country was opposed with a unanimity
almost unparalleled. It was headed by an individual who,
whatever might be his claims to the gratitude of posterity, had
rendered himself, by anany of his proceedings, dis-
tasteful to the large majority in this country. What
was the state of things now ? The repeal of the union
was not one degree less impracticable, but men's minds were
diverted from that simple issue to the canvassing freely and
the criticising unfavourably much of the conduct of her Ma-
jesty's Government. In the year 1829, when 'introducing the
Roman Catholic Relief Bill, the present Primo Minister,
in alluding to the state of Ireland, said that 7,000,000 of Ca-
tholic's were united to a man. He was far from believing that
they were united on this subject, though they appeared to be
united against her Majesty's Government. —( Hear.) They were
not more favourable to repeal, but their condition was such
that he was justified in calling upon their Lordships for inquiry
into the subject. With reference to this he need only allude to
the petition which had just been presented by his Noble Friend
from certain Protestants in Belfast. He had reason to believe
that the feeling there expressed was a growing one, that it
extended to many of the leading Protestants in Ireland,
and this result was owing greatly to the manner in which the
question had been treated. He was about to move a reso-
lution, of which it might be said, that in all the principles
contained in it her Majesty's Government entirely concurred.
He candidly avowed that that was not the view with which he
moved the resolution.—( Hear, from the Duke of Wellington.)
The principles professed in the resolution were principles
which the Noble Lords opposite unscrupulously opposed when
they were not in power, though it was true that they paid
some lip homage to them at the moment of their accession to
office. But were there no other proofs but that petition of the
necessity of inquiry into this subject ? Another Noble Friend
of his had presented another petition, signed by the same class
of persons, to the same effect. He was sure that nothing but
an imperious sense of duty could have induced the first sub-
ject in Ireland—the Duke of Leinster—to have taken the chair
at the meeting at which this petition was agreed to. There
was also the letter, which they must have seen, of a Noble
Lord much opposed to the leader of the Repeal movement—the
Earl of Shrewsbury. All these things proved the necessity of
an inquiry into the conduct of the Government. He felt serious
ala' m at the state of Ireland ; but trusted that peace would
still be preserved. He then proceeded to the repeal agita-
tion. When that agitation first became formidable, two
courses were open to the Government, by following up either
of which with perseverance, they would have led to sepa-
rate advantages —( Hear, hear, hear.) They might have
interfered at first by proclamation to put down these
meetings. If this course was to be taken afterwards—if it was
resolved that it should be taken—it would have been the most
straightforward and most manly course to have taken it at
once. More than this he would say, that if the Government
had evidence enough to establish a charge of sedition, it was
their bounden duty to have interfered.—( Hear, hear.) But
by the course they (lid take, though the advantages were con-
tingent, the evils were immediate. From the violence of some
of their declarations at the time, he certainly inferred that
they wished to strike but dared not. The best chance of the
success of their policy was that their vigorous acts should be
accompanied by remedial measures. Common prudence should
have dictated to them, that if no rigour was to be shown, need-
less irritation should have been avoided. But what did they
do ? They took that most senseless step of dismissing
the Irish magistrates. With this one exception, they
appeared determined to persevere in what some of
their friends called the do-nothing policy. But just
when they seemed on the point of reaping the fruits of
forbearance, when the agitation would either have (lied out,
or, passing a certain point, would have taken another form, at
that moment they altered their course, and stepped in, and
oceeded by proclamation against these meetings, thus giving
one section of their own party not only a triumph over the majo.
rity of the people, but a triumph over themselves.—(Cheers.)
The Noble Lc-Td cheered, but it must be recollected that that was
not a new view of the subject. He was not generally inclined
to attribute to any party, particularly to persons in office, ar-
ticles which appeared in periodical publications. But in the
month of September last, there certainly did appear an article
in a periodical publication which, if he were not much mistaken
(and he had studied the style), was the production of an old friend
of his (the Noble Marquis here turned towards the Marquis of
Clanricarde) than whom no one was better acquainted with
Ireland. The article he alluded to was in the Quarterly Re-
view.—(Ministerial cheers.) It must be remembered that the
opinions there stated were not his. (The Noble .Marquis here
read a passage from the Quarterly Review of September last,
in which it was stated the meetings would wear themselves out,
and that the Fabian policy would at length defeat them; and
that the mischief that would result from the opposite course
would be incalculable.) He (the Marquis of Normanby) had no
hesitation in saying that he agreed with these sentiments.
But the Government had taken a different course—
they issued their proclamation to prevent the meeting at Clon-
tart ; and before corning to that part of the subject, he wished
to know whether any Noble Lord had ever heard one single
person in private conversation defend the conduct of the Go-
vernment in that case—whether they had ever heard of so much
rashnes.s,*alter so much vacillation, exhibited by any Govern-
ment ? If it had not been for the active interference of those
from whom the Govornment had no right to expect support,
what would have been the consequence ?—( Hear, hear,
from the Duke of Wellington.) lie should like to hear some
explanation of the matter. If it was defended in that House, it
would be the first time that it was defended in any quarter.—
( Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington, and other Noble
Lords oni (he Ministeral benches.) Noble Lords cheered
him, but he was sure he would not hear from them such taunts
as were used against the parties who had so interfered—taunts
of cowardice—because they had obeyed the law. He was sure
he would not hear such a defence, and he hoped that Noble
Lords opposite who cheered would put their explanation in a
more intelligible shape. He would not trouble the
House at any length about his opinions respecting
repeal, became he had stated those opinions already
as strongly as any of their Lordships, and that too not within
that House, but face to face with a portion of the Irish people,
who had previously advocated repeal. In the year 1836, an
address had been presented to him, when in the south of Ire-
land, from one of the Ridings of the county of Cork, in which it
was stated that they had advocated the doctrine of repeal, but
had given it up in consequence of the measures they expected
from the Government. He, on that occasion, stated his
sincere opinion, that the repeal was not for the benefit of Ire-
land, and that his sincerity in that opinion was in proportion to
his love for Ireland. The people stated to him on that occasion
that all they asked was equality with the British people, and a
reciprocity of rights and principles. With less, they said,
they could not be content, and with less, he said, they should
not be content. He thought that the present condition of the
sister nation was such as to require all the benefits which
could be derived from progressive legislation ; but it must
have progressive legislation, it could not be acquired by a re-
peal of the union. He should still say, notwithstanding that
opinion, that the question of the repeal of the union was one
which was open to discussion ; for, although injurious
as its consummation might be to the kingdom, yet it was only
the restoration of an Act which existed many years ago, and
which Act when it was repealed was opposed by many of the
most eminent of both countries, amongst whom was the re-
spected late Lord Holland. He therefore denied the right to
impute to the Irish people a spirit of " wild" enthusiasm,
when they sought to repeal an Act which had been opposed by
such men as those to whom he just now alluded, and the more
particularly so when the machinery by which this Act was
carried was such as not to bear investigation or to meet the
daylight, and had been in its origin opposed by, the leading
men of the country. In repeating what he said in the year
1836, with respect to his opinion of repealing the union, he
Was alone actuated by the most sincere love of Ireland and the
Irish people. He most certainly must dissent from the prin-
ciple which the present Ministry seemed to involve in the last
speech from the throne, namely, that they were, even in the
slightest degree, bound to abide by a declaration made in a
former reign. What, he would ask, was the intent of a
dissolution of Parliament, but to take the sense of the people,