The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-27 00:00:00

THE SUN,

Ireland was no less a sum than 69,9861. Besides
a great part of those loans were not yet due,
and therefore no complaint could reasonably be made
about the non-payment of that part of them. The
loans, too, were made on a totally different prin-
ciple from any other. They were forced on
Ireland in spite of the remonstrances of every man
of sense in the country, and they had been spent
with the greatest prodigality in the first instance.
It had been stated that England had been taxed to sup-
port the Irish poor, a statement which had bean cheered
in that House ; why the English Exchequer was quite
as much Irish as English since the framing of that Union
which, it must be remembered, was an union not sought
for by Ireland, but obtained by England at the expense
of much bribery and corruption. Having united the two
Exchequers, the English Legislature had no right to turn
round and talk of an Irish loan from an English Exchequer.
He thought there was no foundation for the aspersion of
an Irish loan being thrown in the teeth of Irish Mem-
bers. There was only one other thing which he wished
to mention, and that was that some persons had
declared that some districts were in too far distressed a
condition ever to repay the advances which were
to be made, and he appealed to the House whether
it would be deterred by a consideration like
this, when they had just voted 1,000,0001.
for the support of a scheme the good effects of which
bad never yet been manifest, from sanctioning this paltry
loan to a country which it had always from the first
treated with injustice.
Mr. F. FRENCH supported the motion for going into
Committee, and said that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Lincoln did not, he thought, understand the precise
nature of the Bill. The object of making the proposed
advances was to repay the wasteful and extravagant ex-
penditnra which had been caused by officers appointed
by the Government themselves in the management of
the affairs of the Irish Unions; and he maintained, upon
the best authority, that it the contractors had chosen to
proceed against the Government they would have ob-
tained verdicts to the amount of 270,000/. The Hon.
Gentleman then read a list of unions, where a huge in-
crease of debts had been occasioned under the adminis-
tration of the vice-guardians; amongst them were the
unions of Listowel and Galway, in the former of which
the debts had been augmentel from 5,4001. to 12,0001.,
and in the latter from 7.0001. to 12,000/.
Mr. R. FOX defended the poor-law guardians and
unions from the imputation of unwillingness t repay.
With respect to the Bill before the House it had his cor-
dial assent, and instead of seeking to defeat it by adverse
amendments it would be far better to forego all angry
reminiscences of the past, and address themselves, like
men of business, to the circumstances of the present end
the future. There was one point to which attention
could not be too carefully directed, viz., the manner in
which the funds should be administered. He should not
now ester into eny details, as be should have other op-
portunities of referring to the management of the Board
of Works and the operation of the poor-law.
Mr. P. SCROPE said that the Hon. Member for Iles
common (Mr. French) hal thought fit to enter into a
defence o the poor-law guardians; but there had been
no instsnce of guardians being superseded by vice-guar-
dians, except where there had been great roismausge-
meat, neglect, and cruelty towards the -poor. With
respect to the distressed unions, the principle on which
their poor should have received the extraneous relief
that had become necessary was, the supply of reproduc-
tive employeseet to Vie able-baited poor, so as to make
those unions self-supporting within as short a time as
possible. But instead at that a system of eleemosynary
relict had been adopted, which was alike ruinous to the
resources of the union and demoralising to the poor. In
the two years ending September, 1849, there had. been
expended in 11 unions in the counties Clare, Mayo, and
Galway, a sum of 725,000/. in poor relief; and of that
amount the unions themselves contributed only 250,3781.,
the remainder, nearly amounting to 500,0001., having to
be furnished by the tax payees of England tied the con-
tributo:s to the rate-in-aid in Ireland. Again, in tee
Limerick union, in the half-year ending September,
1849, there had been 61,0001. expended in supporting
1? ~000 paupers, of whose more than three-fourths, or
9,338 were able-bodiel; and to show the system of mis-
management that was pursued in that union—how little
care was given to employing all this able-bodied
labouring power in a reproductive manner upon the
land, he might mention that on the day he visited the
workhouse ho found that all those able-bodied paupers
had been sent to bed, though it was then only Six
o'clock on a fine summer evening.—(Cries of "Divide,
divide.") The employment he should recommend was
such as would improve the laud—(Divide, divide)--
arterial drainage. —(Divide, divide,) The Honourable
Gentleman, still persisting in his endeavours to obtain
a hearine, notwithstanding the impatience of the House,
was again and again met with the steady continuous
cry .6 Divide, divide." At last, during a pause, he said,
he only wished to impress on the House the necessity of
looking for the future to a better mode of expendi-
ture. The Hon. Gentleman then resumed his seat
amidst ebeera. •
Mr. MONSELL observed, in reference to the Limerick
union, that the only day ou which the Honourable Gee-
dem= who had just sat down had visited the workhouse
in that union was a Sunday—(Laughter)—and he
thought the House would be able to see whether there
was any ground for his strictures on the Limerick guar-
dians when they found him complaining that they had
sent the paupers to bed, instead of employing them in
the cultivation of the land, at six o'clock in the evening
on a Sunday.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Colonel DUNNE observed the impatience of the
House, and would, if necessary, move that the House
should adjourn.—(Cries of " Adjourn.") He only
wished to say that the Government asked money on
the present occasion, not on account of the Irish poor-
law guardians, but on account of the mismanagement of
the Government's own officers, who had increased the
debts of the unions to a very great extent.
The House then divided, when ;here appeared—
For the amendment ... ... 12
Against it ... ... 132
Majority... ••• .•• .•• —l2O
The amendment was therefore lost, and the House
went into Committee.
The preamble of the Bill was postponed.
On clause 1,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the liabilities of Ireland in Dec., 1848 were 513,0001.•
whereas on the 31st Dece:n'ber last they were 392,0001.
The sum of 300,0001. advanced under the Bill would be
applied to the discharge of these liabilities, which at-
tached to about thirty unions. The liabilities might be
estimated at 270,0001., as regarded these unions; the re-
maining 50,000/. would be applicable to the discharge of
the liabilities of electoral districts.
Mr. A. STAFFORD said it was undeniable that the
expenses of these unions had been increased by the de-
lay in passing the Bill. The Bill was one to place the
whole rateable property of Ireland in the hands of Sir
Charles Trevelyan, inasmuch as the boards of gnu--
diens, in this instance, were mere cyphers, obliged
to act under directions from the Treasury, and having
no option.
The clause was agreed to.
On clause 2,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
whole su.he due from Ireland under the Advances Act
wase 4,23a,000/. To this the present sum of 300,000/.
be
5m
added, would make in all 4,535,000/. due froth
Ireland.
The clause was aided to the Bill.
On clause
3,
Mr. A. STAFFORD said this clause placed the whole
of the rateable property of Ireland at mercy of the
Treasury. Nothing, in fact, could
Billllt
was tela
exagge-
rate tho
fpho
ewre
Majesty's,rs given
underT Treasury. utrhye.or s
the
perfectly Commi-
ssioners o s
sible by its agency for the Treasury to ruin any proprietor
by apportioning the debt due on townlands and by ad.
justing the time for its repayment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
amendment he proposed to introduce to this clause was
to enable them to lay a rate on the electoral division,
With regard to the powers conferred by the Bill, heaisci
not see any other means of dealing with the variety of
questions raised in its operation than through their
adoption. Nothing short:of thb permission of absolute
discretion to the Treasury would be efficacious.
After 'a few words from Mr. CLEITENTS and Mr.
Colonel DUNNE said he thought there should be no
discretion given to the Commissioners of the Treasury,
but that a scale should be settled by Parliament.
Mr. HAMILTON thought there was no difficulty in
fixing by law the amount of apportionment.
Major BLACICALL was in favour of a graduated
scale for apportionment and repayment, but he was
given to understand that it was impossible with the max-
imum of 40 years settled by law. He thought a rata of
6d. in the pound on every townland its Ireland would be
fair and equitable for the country, and profitable for the
Treasury.
Lord; NAAS said the Bill contained an arbitrul,
power as regarded the Treasury-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQTIT;;R would
hbaevdhidn on
eothjse,cetitobna to
fitiseuniform s
proposition
ne fur ;I::.aeltrieclaabnlde: but
Major BLACKALL waPe latisfied with the Right
Hon. Gentlemen's e‘
Mr. CLEMENT'S
xPre4s;:on of opinion in favour of the
unions, under ttle Bill,
P
out to thesmaid that the Clare and Limerick
wc:Trld have Cl
full measure of
time meted
as it was well keg
othc anions
sr
were
eonass
mofuclhreldainsd.
would heave a lesser times
Limericol:sadnd Clare.
tressed as thoet
ItiealbLlyTatn)Nd
apercouprateels was not quite equitable,
withcl the view of,.appore
tioMnirn.ellirAat
to 1)1ty, to make an addition tolth4le,srse.-each union
Tin
Viscount BERNARD said the power of determining
the
proper
aopve
ar pt rk
ep ay orbteiontrtatehfeurrneidon twoasthteo might with
mostep d
missioners. The benefit of such an arrangementeer-lew
Corn_
be to let Unions, as well as individual k would
amount of their liability, and when s, now the exact
it would have to be
discharged.
Colonel DUNNE did not think the words of
the clause
were as clear as they might be.
Lord NAAS wished some words inserted to
limit the
power of the Commissioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said all
parties were agreed as to what was intended by the clause.
He had no objection, however, to insert any words that
would make the meaning more clear.

Mr. HAMILTON having furnished hi 3 explanatory
addition, it was inserted in the clause.

Mr. CLEMENTS proposed that certain words be
omitted, and to insert the words " forty years."
The gallery was cleared for a division.
On our re-admission .the amendment was still under
debate, . . , .

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill was intended as a
relief to Ireland, and he did not think it was fair on the
Port of some Hon. Members to meet it in such a spirit
as had been evinced.
Arr. STAFFORD thought the Noble Lord was hardly
justified in his reproach, considering the division which
had just taken place.