The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

POST-OFFICE LABOUR ON SUNDAYS.

Mr. SIIIEON presented a petition from a place in
the Isle of Wight against Sunday labour in the Post-
office.

IMONUSIENTA lIISTORICA BRITANNICA.

Sir R. H. INGLIS, on behalf of Mr. Hutt, moved for
returns of the cost of preparing for publication, and of
printing and publishing, the work entitled "Monumenta
Historica Britannica; or, Materials for the His-
tory 'of Britain;" of the number of copies printed ;
of the number of copies sold, and of the price
at which sold ; of the names of the persons or
parties to whom copies have been given gratuitously;
of the names of the persons or parties who have applied
for copies, but whose applications have not been com-
plied with; together with the number of copies remain-
ing undisposed of : and also copies of the correspondence
which took place in November and December, 1848,
between the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, the Lords ef the Treasury, and the Master of the
Rolls, regarding the sale and distribution of the said
work. He (Sir R. H. Inglis) said the work had been
pronounced by competont authorities to be one of the
finest that ha-1 been published in Europe.
LORD TORRINGTON'S CONDUCT.
Mr. STUART WOI?TLEY said that he wished to
draw the ett-ntion of the Home to a circumstance with
respect to the 1:1, et Committee en the affairs; of
Ceylon, which invelved is breach of privilege. That
Committee was a Select Committee, and the usual cus-
tom of P.irliament was to take all evidence with clued
doors ; but the Committee, with a view to make the
inquiry as public and select as possible, had allowed the
admireiou of etrangere. The consequence Mai, the
printing ef a portion ef the evidence, in a, very
garbled state, in which a portion ef one per-
son's evidence was altogether distorted and
given in a 'way which was deeply injurious to the
party concerned. What ho wished to inquire war whether
the Hon. Gentleman, the chairman of that Committee,
hat tiken any steps to preveat a similar abuse et
privi-
Ic;;e.—(l[e.r, hear.)
Mr.BAILLIN 'aid that having obserTed thiJ abuse of

privilege the Conamit4..e had only this day come to a re-
solution to take the evidence with closed doors.
LAW OF SETTLEMENT.
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR presented a petition
from several parties in Middlesex lor trAt alteration in the
law of tettlement.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BiLL.
. Sir G. GREY said that he wps about to ask the indul-
gence c f :he Route. The second order of the day it as
the Party Procesions (Ireland) Bill; which had come
down from the Lords with ore amendment, among
others, which ho hr-d desired that Members might have
an opportunity of considering, and- agreeably to a
motion of his the amendments had been printed
and were now in the hands of the Members. The
amendment was one relating to the penalties for being
f.)und in possession of fire- arms at meetings, and as the
1 ith of March vt as approaching, on which it was to be
feared that some occurrences similar to those late de-
plorable ones might take place unlass some Act of this
sot t were in force, he (Sir G. Grey) wished that this
Bill should be acceleratA as much as possible.
The Lords' amendments to the Party Processions
(Ireland) Bill were then agreed to.
EASTER RECESS.

Mr. F. MAULE haring moved the order of the day
for the House geing into Committee of Supply, on the
question that the Spa -.ker do leave the chair,
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said, in the absence
of Cee Noble Lord at the head of the Government, he
was in doubt whether to ask the quct.laion ef which he
had given notice, namely, to ask the first Minister of
the Crown, whether he will move the adjournment of
the Howe so as to include passion week ie the Easter
recess, He hope 1 the House would . excuse him for
bringing this subject forward, but ho had done it at the
request of many Members. who wished to have
the whole week preceding Easter Sunday en-
tirely free from the turmoil ef business.
The House would be curious to know what had been the
practice cf the House in regard to the Easter holidays up
to the present time. He had examined the journals on the
subject, and the result of that examination had been to find
that the longest duration of the Easter holidays had been
twenty-two days, while the shortest had been nine days.
'rhe House would perceive that even the shortest period
would have included what was called Passion Week; but
upon the average of twenty years the Easter holidays had
extended over fourteen days, and if the House thought it
would better promote the business of the House and the
convenience of Honourable Members who came from
Ireland and Scotland, that it should extend to a given
and certain period, let them adopt a little longer time,
and make the holidays sixteen instead of fourteen
days.—(Flear, hear.) The present system of conducting
the business of the House was by no means satisfaCtory;
and in point of fact they had rather lost than gained
time by the manner of fixing the holidays, and he would
therefbre ask the Noble Lord the question which he had
already mentioned as a matter of feeling on the part of
those in witch() name he now made this application—as
a mater of convenience to Hon. Membtrs coming from
Scotland, Ireland, and a distance—and us a matter of
convenience to the House generally, in settling the mode
of conducting some of its business.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL (who had entered the House
whilst the question was being put, amid much laughter)
said ho proposed to move the aejcurnment of the House
on the Tuesday in Passion week, until Monday, the Bth
of April. His Noble Friend asked him to postpone the
adjournment in order to include Passion week. That
course, if acceded to, would be exceedingly inconvenient
to the public business, as the Government proposed to
bring forward the financial statement this year sooner
than usual, and therefore the estimates and some other
business would not be brought on on the day now
proposed if the request of his Hon. Friend was complied
with. He (Lord John Russell) should therefore adhere
to the arrangement he had already made, leaving it for
the House in a future year to say whether the Easter
recess should be further prolonged than at present.
NATIONAL GALLERY.
Mr. OGLE asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was the intention of theltrustces of the National
Gallery to persevere in cleaning the pictures of the old
masters; and also, whether they contemplate removing
the pictures of the Royal Academicians from that part of
the building at present appropriated to them.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he understood'on inquiry
that none of the pictures in the National Gallery had
been ordered to be cleaned during the last two years.
He was not prepared to say that the trustees would be
satisfied with what had been already done. With respect to.
the further question, no arrangement had been finally
made with regard to the National Gallery; but it wes
under the consideration of the Government to provide ad,
ditional accommodation for the pictures presented by pri-
vate individuals, especially those in the Vernon Gallery,
AFFAIRS OF GREECE.
In reply to Mr. SNIYTHE,
Lord PALMERSTON said a dispatch to the same
effect as that which had appeared in the public journals,
and which purported to emanate from Count Nesselrode,
had been corninunicated to the Government by Mons.
Brunnow.
In reply to another question from the same Hon.
GENTLEMAN,
Lord PALMERSTON said he was preparing"! a
number of documents in continuation of those which
had formerly been laid before Parliament on tho affairs
of Greece, and he should lay them on the table of the
House when the proper time arrived for doing so.
MOLDAVIA AND WALLACHIA.
In reply to Mr. ANSTEY,
Lard PALMERSTON said it was etipulatcd by the
Emperor of Russia that all troops should, beyond the
Number of 10,000, be withdrawn from the provinces of
Moldavia and Wallachia as soon as possible, end he had
no reason to believe that any change had taken place
in respect to that arrangement.
GREECE.
_ _ _

Lord PALMERSTON, Tiiaa7wer to Mr. E. Denison,
said he did not think it would conduce either to the
interests of the public, or give aly it,f)rmation to the
House on which it could form any distinct opinion, to
lay the papers btfire the Ilouse while the negoticions
respecting Greece were still incomplzte.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the motion being again put that the House resolve
itself into Committee ou the army estimates, .
Mr. lIORSMAN wished to inquire of the Secretary
of War whether there were any regiments in India
which had bern there more than flacon years; and, if so,
whether it was intended to adopt auy rule for their
relief ?
Mr. FOX MAULE said that a rule bad been male

,hmt ncr regircenT should in future continn iu India oa

uninterrupted service more than fifteen years. Measuree
had been taken to carry out this rule, and in future no
regiment would be required to serve there longer than
fifteen years. There were regiments now in India that
bad been there more than fifteen years, but they would
be relieved as soon as possible.
The House having resolved itself into Committee, and
the motion having been read,
Mr. FOX MAULE said that the motion which he had
placed in the hands cf the Speaker was for a vote of
1,9128 men for the service of the Crown and for em-
ployment under the East India Company. In bringing
it before the House, he was sorry that file motion hid
not been made on Friday night, as it would have
seised him from troubling the House with a statement
which would be comparatively tedious. The whole
number of men which ho had to ask fir was 99,128,
while the number granted for the current year was
103,254, showiniz en excess of 4,126 on the fOrtuer. The
number of officers was 128, of non-commiszioned
officers 308, and of men 3,699. Of the whole
of the number now askrd for 59,393 Wero for
home service, and 39,730 for colonial service.
• Of these 9,688 Mere colonial furors. They bad then
30,042 men (f the Queen's service to be relieved from
home in different parts of the world. Out of 59,398
men at home, if they subtracted the Guards, who were
essentially troops for the home service, and cavalry to
the extent of 8,000, they would have 45,540 men at
home to relieve the troops in the colonies. They
had been told the other night by the Honourable
Gentleman (the Member for the West Riding) that he
could eff:.ct a saving in the charges ef 5,823.000/.,
cf which he presumed one-third would be in tee army
charges, namely, 1,941,0001.; for. he did not think the
Hon. Gentleman meant to interfere with the not-effee-
tive branch, which hod been investigated from time to
time. Now they asked for an establishment of 99;128
men, at a charge of 3,936,582/., subtracting from which
1,941,0001., the sum which he presumed the Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed to save, there remained 1,995,5814
Ho turned now to the year 1835, which had been so
pointedly alluded to by the Hon. Member for the West
Riding. Ho found by a calculation made in that, year,
by taking the amounts voted and placing them against
the rank and file, the charge for each man was 42/. some
odd shillings. sow, to say nothing of the honour and
dignity of the country, that sum would give 50,000
men, • a number that was considerably below
the standard of 1835; but his Hon. Friend complained
that since 1835 the army had been increand from time
to time, and that all these additions had been studiously
maintained, and we had never gene back. It was quite
true that from 1835 down to the present time there had
been repeated additions made to the strength of the
army both at home and abroad. He found that
the army in 1835 did not exceed 81,000 men, but in 1838
disturbances arose in Canada of a very formidable cha-
racter, and the consequence was that the army was im-
mediately increased fur the purpose of suppressing it.
It was increased to 89,900, and it was afterwards
further increased to 93,000. In 1840 the colonial
corps was raised, at the urgent request of several
Honourable Members, and in 1842 additional troops
were required to serve in India and China.
In 1846, the state of affairs in China had -assumed such
an aspect that the Government came down with a supple-
mentary vote, and the Howie willingly granted 8,000
additional men. In the years 1848-9 the army rose
still further, to no less, indeed, then 113,000 men. •
That occurred under the supposition that India was to
see no more war. If those five regiment.; had been re-
duced the moment they arrived from India, what would

have been the result? The very next year after their
return they were required for India-again, and if they
had bees reduced immediately on their return, the cost of
their re-Equipment would have been double the nun
their maintenance laud cost after their return. after

18-18-9,.the Govermaent went from 113,000 men dean to
103,000 ; and this year. they were ::till retracing their
steps, for from 103,001) Ciey had arriAed at 99,128.
It was said by the Hon. Gentleman the Aie,mber for the
West Riding, if the colonies were to have the power of
self-governmeit. it was but fair that Ulnas colonies
should maintain the troops sent out in the
funu of military police. His Honourable Friend,
(Mr. Labouchere) stated the other night, that as far
as finding lodging and troops went, that principle vv.:a
being gradually carxied ont in Canada, Australia, and
several ethers Of the colonies. That was at least a step
in the direction indicted by the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for the West Riding, and as the colonies
progressed ho had no doubt the principle of their
maintaining the troops necessary for thAr own &-
fence would be further carried out—(lean) lie

(Mr. F. Maule) en', however, prepared to mnietain that
scarcely any of our colonies were in that position
when it could be fairly said they could
bear that expenee ihorn their own resources.
Ills Hon. Friend then went on to say that the argallil2;
Lion of the British army was of a more extravaga.n
nature than that of any other army in Europe; arid 11e
justified the eatertioa by observing that it WAS kept
,116?
in a discreditailo meaner. Now his (Mr. F. Naule.
)
experience enabled him to ray that the officers of the
British army evens the worst paid and hardest winkej
of any class of public servants he knew.—(Hear, hear.)ee
Take, for instance, a lieutenant-Colonel, and vier, "re
position and his pay in a mercantile sense, so as
tho hhe
perfectably icteiligible to a mercantile man.--(1°K81
hear.) LID paid 4,540/. for his commission, and .hie
annual pay amounted to 365/. Now, dcdtmetnif
51. per cent. interest on the capital which
he had suck, it would ansouet to 2271. ; and to this beachio
was to I e added income -tax and other expenses, t
would nit 'Ober make a 5( tal of 258/, so that the aes6?
,alary c f a tieutenant-colonel for all his services eves only
107/: Pty the same calculation, a major would only
receive 93/. 15s. ; a ceptain somewhat more
namely, 108/. ; a lieutenant 85/., and an ensign r 3
/.
aristocracy held a very small portion of the e",t
missions in tie army so that the accusation
it was maintained for the eristeeracy WAS unfounded.
To reduce the number of officers as proposed,
att
tho first place, would compel the Genie:nee
to make retiring efficers annuitants on the country, or
in the second place, it would tend very much to reduce
the efficiency of the pu'lie. service. With respect
nt
the increase of the several grades of officers in different
regiments, he agreed with his Hor. Friend the 2iereuit
for Manchester, that it would be a greet evil, but t,
should be recollected that the efficiency of all
could only be sustained by the efficiency of the officers
oby_
Which it wascommanded. Officers must of necessitytbe men.
well trained and well supported, so that when it was
cessary to increase the strength of the army, 115' hoili
t e
stance, suppose a regiment at the Cape of Good
„otPut
required strengthening, they multi only have to send.
neakeric _
men to increase the corps to its proper
standard.--(Hear, hear.) What was the fact ? Thre,he
were 30,000 men in the colonies, and 30,000 is
India, leaving about 45,000 for various duties orati
home service, of whom 40,000 were imperatively, req"„n;
for home service, so that oely 5,000 men were lets to
relieve 60,000. He would not treepass upon
but he might any that the proportion of of wse.
far below what many might deem a proper
they
elgod
Why, he fund that looking at the army lists they,. the
one officer to 20 men ; and on looking at the argil' °num
United States, which the Right Hon. Gentlernae
not say was kept on a larger establishment than 117 here
eessary, he found that in an army of 17,000 wee:meet
were 775 officers, in the proportion of one officer to 2 —the
Here, then, was the.argument which he adduced to
en
House in asking it to give them a force of 9%128 mr
their
for the ensuing ye tr. Ile had shown them it was necessary el
on the ground of 'mewl :Hug relief for the forces abroucek
—a necessity which had been insisted upon ie /110 iv
better language than he (Mr. F. Maule) could Os ha
his speech, in 1845. A routine of ten years colonto
service had been arranged, and if thetFlouse wished kite
preserve that routine it must grant them the Win— 5,
number of men to maintain it. He thought some 'tied
sideration was necessary to the times in which t
Looking
end to the position of the country. the
at the state of fereign armies, he found thati ef
army of France at the preterit moment consi'te tie
430,000 men, besides a greet number of gendarnide
of
and national guards. The Prussian army consist°
ed
325,000 men, besides 450,000 of the fast and sece3s2
class of land vrher. The Austrian army contained rt.
generals, 2,084 staff-officers, 16,549 commissioned officer.'
49,000 non-commissioned otlicers, and 539,000 went
reasonl l e tho uwg
hh3t7, upon
the grounds,Htboeusosesliouid grant he had
propottuat en
of the Government to maintain 99,128 of
during the present year. He came now to vt,Tiect
sthheown Butlil °ll
•d
money, but with regard to this branch of the s"tbe
he should not enter into any details, simply he ears; up
estimates were now before a Committee StC"liPiterci,
the
ed wouldos e. lie
stairs, who were carefully int eaigatieg every. to
retortshould, thethretrseuftl)tre,otgive the ililetlee
eft,nri y
tahneimperfect,and
forcesknowledge
during o f
tehaechvot present Tyhtol:rblit'eaS
t; ete
nowtheir inquire se
3,562,431/, the same charge in last year's °wilily./
was 3,655,5881., showing a decrease of. 9,"'," e
upon tide estimate. The next vote, which evast:.l°-
seta, amounted for the year 1849-50 to 173,27:7:6a
for this year to 164,916/., showing a reduction 01 'toot,
He should here call the attentioa of his Ilothll'f'd la
who complained that the officers were not reduced
wpreoepoartiroendeteeittiheen men, to
twoto the fact
etliiliatceirne,tletwiseersonitduees"rtir.
camp, six attached generala one assistant ss-at, for
master, two majors, and one quartermaster. The vet of
the public department last year amounted to the su". of
94,1991., this year it was 9.),6541., showing a decreases a
1,515/. In the vote for the Military College there was
small decreate, mounting to 513/. The next Yeeteneed
for the Military Asylum, which couiPte"elotl.
the educational institutions 'in England and Ire:- ea
Upon that vote there was a decrease. There eves is
increase in the vote for the yeomanry corps /00
year as compared with last year of 14,714" last
reason of that increase was that •ty of
year the yeomanry carps had not the
arsembling for thet convenient drilling, ereeeet.
was small at all times, and which was ahtnint'eJYTl: the
sery to keep the corps in proper eiseipliuet
4t there
effective service this year as compared with The
next
AS a decrease in the expense of 89,5701. r -
was the non-effective service. The vote was, Z.'t 0/(4
wards for military eervice. Last 3 ear it was vi'',:2o4
thief year it wan much about the same. •"' was
pay of general officers the sum taken last Yfarnuad
78,908/. ; the sum for this year was 58,0001
opportuet shine
numb••rs, showing a decrease of 20,0001. in roue", ";".„50
hers. Ile must say on this vote, as compared with tt"eo.oo/.
for 1835, there was a decrease of no less than'"'.. all
lie leo* came to the helf-pay list—forrnidssle Yn
times—but still not disproportionate this year. pOOl
1849 it amounted to 400,0004, but this year to 3'5 of
showing a decrease of 14,0001. ; and, since I'3if 'ate
195,500/. The nuna her of t flieers oho had fence o
was,
list was 234, the nurnfer discharged 87, and ne °ti by
placed on the list who had not earatd his pO5l blel by
risks in the service, by ill health, 2:etton-
other circumstances of an equally °Kl bad
able nature. On the widows' list there 1835
been a decrease since last year of 2,2491., and since ,te-
ef 22,6931. Tne decrease on the vote for the (as
tenance Of the children of deceased officers) eels
4,500/, and since6B,ooo/. The
we understood the Right Honourable Gentleman, list
in 1849 was 1,224,0521,, and this year 1,21% iv
showing an increase of 965/., but this
the
the
crease could easily be accounted for, *au to
ear -
consequence was that ho had resolved- this Y mot it
diminish that vote, and he had accordingly estielhe
at 20,000/, so that there might be an excess:for t
is ow
neral benefit. The next fund to which he came "'Auction
superannuation fund, and in that hehad made ft re"hiola
pensoners74,
of 38,0001., being the difference between 40,0001, ^ toe
was the vote of last yrar.. The whole reduction thei_ttia•
122,814/. and upwards. Ile had been desirous 01 a'
ederet
more, but he found that the office of Commll edlarge
Chief, which was ones f great responsibility' invo'r sue of
expenses; the expenses indeed were such that te draw
the senior officers had, he was sorry t') say' rely
the thing se fine that many of them died 5 that
after. The rerult of the whole then eves 847,
the number of men voted for in 1849-50 was In'uteeer
aeari expense of 4,356,750/., while for 185Ce1 thkeing dif"
was 99128, with au expense of 3,936,9821 e te300,161/.--
ferenco of 14,719 men with a reduction of
(Hear, hear)—but if he included the non .eir3" ear('
-Id those of
vco the decrease was 501,438/ But he yew', those ti-
the army estimates for the present year t"l"coheen)
1235, and he would show his lion. Friend OY-Lr• h he
that they were much nearer the level of 18° fir 1835
hod any idea of. The army and militia cbtrge69019,3971'
were 6,016,6431.; for 1850-1 they Dar
making a difference of only 2,604/—(Hear, hts•tes f)r
though they had so nearly approached the estarea
to stay
1835 he did not mean to say that they ere d to ate
there, if, consistently with the duties they °w bring the
Crown, the army, and the country, they coulter,u beer.)
estimates below those of that year._'. „timber
were hear,)
Having now stated the ease with regard to leoLte, he
of the army, and the estimates for its Insillitt tee steP.s
wished to make a few remarks with regardtt:the
which had been taken of late years to promote e arree3;',
pline, the comforts, and the good cheraeterr,_oos. etbi.
And first with regard to the military 035, he
added considerably to the army
was happy to be able to inform the House
boen more than
pauses of those committed to prison had 0% But the
estimates :10a the
hexn;
covered by the sums deducted from tell. pay
With t
was a matter of minor consideration cOrsPe"
b conduct a!'"
improvement which had taken place in t te„uretive,
the ceeer
umber'
itte •
character of the army as Evinced by The nutn",,,ra
number of potions committed to prison. esti been g 47,
young young men committed to military prisons 10'
dually decreasing during the last tnree Yelr'ef age
the number of persons under '2O years et:to 981; in
were committed amounted to 1,126; in 184° -s menmen°t
!
1849, to 589.--(Hear, hear.) The number
hu:iu le4B,
two years' service committed in 1847 was 1,85e' cite sure
1,590; in 1849, I,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) the felt tlhe sany,
that under the present system of education
the number of committals would reeulation
—(Hear, hear.) He might also state that a -
eo mn-
which was recently made, ordering that tbe ogee
mitted to prison should have their hours of steetevtofero,,
lated as if they were on guard, instead of as tud' nights
allowing them a constant, succession of effect,
rest, had been attended with the most saiteetaaltaht had
and those who had been subjectel to this trea
Neer,
not come back to prison aain for a long tirl'e
of
the
hear, and laughter.) Witt regard to the health
army, a great deal had been done of late years
with respectthe
more
still further decrease.
mote it. He had the returns of mortalitydwto
the
to the army serving nitre al. With regar
tality of the army at home he had not
he was happy to say that with respect to the I t
__dee the
severely ulnae
tion of the cholera, it had not fallen so s of 1849
army as it had on civilians. But the r.eturr:
erovetne"t•
with respeat to the army showed a grt th edte,, had
In British Guiana during 184 S-9. the snortelit.Y:wn"a7now
been 97 in 1,000 on an av,rage ef throe
Yeatiajlity,
only 14.—(fie,,r.) Fr Teitticia,l, the nil" of tot
averal,e
had been 102 in the 1,000 on un
he other
any re.atuerilsis,ihau.t.
) In t • -
years, was now only 33.—(flear, treat.
s iilar ditrunn.
foreign stations there was
fincrease •
mortalitY
Ituioorrt,tathough
Thein a
if.e)
,twhieurge a:p
s terving on
per 1,000 of tee strength amen;; the, tr(!aorpc.:3l,
1849,
foreign stations fur the year ending Blanch
s 10 Yesrs:--
compared with the average of the previous ,ous 10
of preet
British Guiana, 1948 9, 14.1., average
Pet.:;:e rr
eat
Ye
a I
sl
ratesigiuh ot
years, 97.9;
Trinidad, 33.0, average 10.9;
28.6, average 75.9; Crowds, 12.3, average 4 Ot_
Vincent's, 6.0, average 66.1; Bani
rbadocs, 128.8,
14,er",
404,
142.9; St. Lucie, 17.4, aeerftge 67.6; Dornin
.ot.
excrete° 132:3; Aittigu7, 10.9, avoiago 63.2'
eetn, . .
PIS
19.4, average 105.6; \,Yioavvald and Leewardi_

, ay.-
I, .k,., r. , .
'',.a^ n'• r-.e• dazn•itcr. AS 3 evcriere 63.9. Gi'ci- :nett consist of 1,000 men? Lord Palmerston had him-
r e 84. „_ - 'e.•- - - • I _
•Oth., L. “leVZlglf 11.1; Melti, 30.1, Je.eeetee 1 ;e:lf.,t LtA before the Cenareittee that it would be a meic-
-11,2',..1"d't 23.1, e•en, ..,e '• tt ..'. e t nv-r- -in, of ver • rreat coonoriny. When Lord ll,xley, in 1822,
. 1... 1,:r.., ,4, • ~.,-; , 1.0 J, .:.. 1 .:'rl -J. ._, .-. , . ~•, - .) k
'4l Nel', 1, A torneil eed, 10.3, ai,e,re.,e. n.! ; Neve ;ieo,i3. : hrouehi, fori.vard the etieetive end non-effetive state of the
,„14tPeei 1,'""1, 19.7, axe! ap, 13.0; Cenade, 15.6, ' army, he stee.ed that h•,' the reduceion that would teke place
tiooe// -76; le efeleeee h.', ~.,,,raeie 15e1; Cape 0: in the nen-,•fieciive e,rength of the airy, tin might cutlet
'Pr%,,, „T,„ v 5,.?„ neere,ge to n; it t, M..erele ~ 14.0, upon an nititeete eavieg '0 5,000000/.; but all the
11'cr,,,,,e.,, e,.);,(eejlein, 21.5, avenevee 41.1; .7,;,e1, at, 22.1, ,e,viees in that tiepartment were now mided t., the drew.
lire, is f.:. ° Years 73.1; lleneal(!i-e, r, ;11-i-, f; en this Live Strcn;.;Lh of the or:: y, se) tai the people were no
1p75,1)..01,„he year , eding 2,lereli 31, V V 3), 61 1, ever- gainene Ile emit ?tided that the public were scandaleusly
a4tdr„,:i ,J y' 26 6, averare 62 :',; New S,Judi used in evtry point cf viiev hy a speem which main-
aeb, ' ew Z' d.and, 8.3, tave;aee of 10 years 11.0; ruined double the number of officers really required. In
of, eltieet, L , - ....
recent it ',uct, 2.0, average 14.0. le consequence his opinion, it WaS high time for that Hense Lo look to
their
~n2.ov:pv.-113,5 in the Wes• Iw.'ies, the troops these military establishments, with a view to cutting
'Cleir
tr„..nere were now as healthy ez in any other of them down. In the proposition which he was about to
N., '111O•try mat i.„,,
____l yr ~" ~,,, •-• ) Now eit h re- make he did not ask them to iii: charge one soldier. All
he, c, the ~,,-._... -•_-•, k.,-..,, • , A.. 0, . . .1 , , ,
1,.' ii): hie
44,...r Lei) ei: eetwetion for the army, it eiel been he desired we's to stop recruiting. The people of Felg-
t`lide,„„ carry out tile plan which feed Leen prevrinede land were Wei”lno,(l down to the 'roared by the pressure
'''ts,„. with greet i ai-e and. skill bv has predecessor ,of taxation. In Mar) li.bene, which Was ono Of the
Ittof2.l,The last quarterly retort's siie",ed Oat in 18 I riehrst p,rishes in Leedom he had asceriaincd Viet there
~,ttget 'ehools, that stern was fl..eirislette, Eitel that, I were. GOO warrarrs t,f distress is sued tar the non-pay-
'4llo,,, ;ilu,' vvhe ;et elded them were 2,21'.9 n.),1-erns- i anent of the rafts. He had riot been able as yet to lesrn
tie 'et,
T '-'
t
11,,, Ptne„ri ile..-,r, near.) „-„,,, teat, Fysletli 1 what the number was on ateeneant of the assessed taxes.
Oct ;,,, Y 'natured, he believed that s better edueat •d lle weuhl, however, mare for ':s return which would give
Ilerir,,,'ll would n,t ho found a•ey wile:- thi...e thes, him this inf eirnation. Indeed, they ought to bore re-
halha
.i.)s,ecl her Me,'say', army.-((lt'at", h':l-.) Ile turns of all the parishes in l,t;:it.4da,id ri,; to .he number
',4„ll.leil.‘„Pat'lY 10, b., aide to say ....1-e..a the Commeseecr.e„.. !il wetrrantte or di,tress i,sopd beth in respect to
' ste, ",,e.rained in applying the same se•.;tern to ' parochial and what were call7el King's taxe,. They
4,)41 ' class of the f ' •,•, s e I I ,'sure would find by the returns that hair putinerin
. army, fear notutie ceu 1
b'l'Aitt,:ll:l to ditrunlF,ll that respcct which" it. was. rn - , and crime had been in a great deere3 predec • d by'
riti'' ~fii4" the S All 'I" should entertain towards his 611- 1 their taxation. They thus tot Ic frem the working-
-0:11Iiv_'!e 0 !hie the eieetrmit tree that tho soLlier ! classes the last remnant nf property which tiny pos-
k j,, 'uN hairs, 1r to be ,uo,rior in point of knowledge ? sensed, and fercrd them to Le depeedent upon the no.a.--
k4let.t,st,",,'ertur officer.-(Hei r, hesr.) The C. ,11,- rates instead of receiving a cont,rihution from them in
Z.!ttsiec„.',,,"l'f, therefore, would insist that every support of these establishments. Il they hid reduced
111 aN, "`" undergo an eraminee'en hel„re he entered fie army to tee standard of 1835, they never would have
the' and in due and not very distant time he hoped , required the ineorne-tex. In a pamphlet published by a
Ito e;tilitii,
Dcr,on n would be more widely aprecei, and E;lat Mr. Norman Icady, tee opinion of Mr. John Stuart
tt 'tctild he promoted to the ra lc of erietaie I Mill was quoted upon this pOile. That gentleman was
tito ender,. ' ' de to .a ' that h
tll,, e',og a second examination. Ile had LOW I m• 1 de ,3, till amount raised by Governmeut in
i,,atee grounds on which he thought 99,123 men the shape of taxation wes fir the purpose of affording
Ctoatrt'a, r:i' far the service of the country. lie had : the Government an opportunity of spending that which
Oise L'll to show that the charge for the effeetiee t ether people ought to he allowed to spend. The Go-
ttvittf• ce'lectiee service! bad been duly ettended to in I vernment had now a surplus of 2,000,0001., which would
the a enemy, He shownwhat had been I enable them to make the reduction asked for with the
th,(l loey . • had .. .
,';4' it, 411;1') with respect to discipline, health, and edit- I most perfect security. This was the time for Honour-
Ctiiti ehe could tell the House, on authority which f! able Members opposite to support him in his propositions
tile ee to re: it d (4' f III '1 to testa tpec an cre et rem tin onto, w len i for such reduction. If they refused to do so then
eittlltt 'alony with regard to the discipline of ant he would not listen to any attetnpt at reduction made
IQ ft,. 48 to both officers and men the British army by them at a time when there 'could bo no such
;Itit,„.B.'late of which the country might well be proud; 1 surplus in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands.
ilett,,:Prepnred at all points to meet the enemy, and ? The Noble Lord at the head of the Government
<!oepte,litce had every disposition, at all times and I would not be placed in any worse condition if
1 tle-"siQus, ta live in peace and harmony and good Ihe assented to this reduction. His position, on the con-
itYle tt' With its fellow-citizens in every part, not only trary, would be greatly improved; for he would not be
itiseitlirltrY, but in the extensive colonies which ap- so much bothered for the distribution of his patronage,
°t'tl) '43
hit•-(Cheers.) for he would have fewer applications. The more money
1411„. 4tite ting Veen put, they had to spare the more they were annoyed by the
claimants on their bounty. This was an economical
eitti Ntlt; said that he most heartily concurred in
th, ilutcg portion of his Right Hon. Friend's country, -(Laughter.) Ho admitted that they had
I lo "te was happy to find that so much had been , amassed capital, but it was not sufficient to support
the heavy weight of taxation which was placed in
iithet&r°clote the discipline, the health, and education I
greater proportion upon the shoulders of the poor than
LitettrlYe•-(liear, hear.) It was a erect satisfaction
upon the real capital of the country. . He, therefore,
0,, i, 0 hail 30 long contended for the abolition of ,
I begged leave to move that the number 99,000 be altered
Zttt: the army, that a different system had been
to 89,000. .
le,test;,°rk so well, and to be attended with so much !
The question having been put,
04 0 `s• Ile had heard from the present distin-
ttlaitlatatnailder-in-Chief that the number of lashes Major BLACKALL said it was not in consequence
tRI,:e time should now be limited to 50, and it of having been connected with the service he was induced
fic444l;'t teseisfaction to have heard him say that even to oppose the amendment. He believed that all those
ilibititltT might in time be reduced.-(flea*, hear.) who were connected with this service were equally anxious
as the Hon. Member for Montrose to see it conducted
Ottytto glad that better barrack accommodation had ,
tletol'ited for the soldiers. He never said the pay of with every regard to economy. He had not heard
7,tettr officers was too high. The only difference any reason assigned by the Honourahle Member
ettt4'tti between him and his .Rielit Hon. Friend form the proposition he made. The Honourable
Nttitila numbers of the army. 1;1898 the actual Member said that he only want id to stop re-
t44,17t0 trevenne raised was 15,500,0004 But in con- cruiting ; but surely that object, if attained, would
, not have the effect of reducing the household troops or
ietllett°,l tt great outcry being raised against the
, the cavalry of the
.United Kingdom.-(Hear, hear.)
0,4 that time, a Committee was appointed, and
kiTtititt to the extent of 5,000,000/. were effected Were there any of their colonies in which they could
it,liti ..1,;'• In that year the revenue was 50000000/.. with safety effect a reduction of their troops. In the
Whole of their North American colonies, including Ber-
k ,t 1,4-43 " sorry to say that since that time Whole
t lucre ased the expenditure, except during rauda, their effective force only amounted to about 5,500
men. It they meant to hold their West Indian colonies,
I% Lao years. He maintained, however, that
t4P'wlit,„; IM necessity for the increase' during the in- surely 3,300 men was not too large a force. In the
,ii„t
tititt Years. They had not yet heard the financial Cape of Good Hope they had only 2,500 men; in
Of th°l„the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan- Ceylon 1,000 men; in the itlauritius 1,000 men; Aus-
tralia, including New Z-aland, 2,500 men; in Gibraltar
tlptlki° t;xchequer, but he thought he might take
2,500 men; in Malta 1,000 men; in China 1,000 men.
tit be
for the present year, allowing for reduc-
hillilt etween 50,000,0001. and 51,000,000/. There Ile did not see how they could reduce the amount in any
"e
w
tl, ay of reducing the expenses of the army, of these colonies. The Hon. Gentleman said that the
i, aiiikas by reducing the number of men. The vas army at home was maintained at its present standard for
the purpose of keeping down certain clesses. This he
thi."'irY and naval Committees that had sat up to
, dried.-.(liear, hear.) He was sure that the conduct
yitltot'ci'ent period had invariably been recom-
o. the military could not justify such an assertion. When '
0,40 refer to the model of 1792, in the time of
V,lkitiirreath, as a means of enabling the country to anything like a rebellion was threatened, the manufac-
-144, 1,8 character, and be provided -with a full ex- curing classes ti ere the very first to call on the military
!,;.tetm Produce the sinews of war whenever events for their active interferenee-(Hear, hear)-and if there
tr9tgdoer such a measure necessary. Instead of was any attempt made to reduce them they would be the
9i4tWil4 the expenditure and husbanding their re- very first to grumble. He certainly could not agree to
the
.amendment.
Volt at way, they bad been not only expending
Oy °I the revenue, but within the last ten or Sir W. MOLES t' said that the Hon. and
ite Lye they Gallant Gentleman who spoke last complained of the
, a -ney had added no lass than 40 0)0 000/. to --
Of °ill - • , want of argument for the proposed reduction, and he
t, tt 0 country. Here was no less than 13,000
Ostoitterease which bad been accounted for in ooh- called upon his Her. Friend to explain his reasons for
t‘\1(11„, the rebellion in Canada. The rebellion was bringing forward this amendment. Before he attempted
a reply to the Hon. and Gallant Member's speech, he
tliett`e,acre not the men gone too ?-(Heir, hear.)
' for 4 that in the -
ft tees year 1835-6 the number of would refer to a remark wade by the Right Hon. Gentle-
\;man the Secretary at War-namely, that the expense of
it i was 80,000; in 1847 it had increased to
the army and militia at the present moment was nearly
6,11111„:848, Matters not being yet settled in Ca-
the same as, it was in 1835. That statement of tte
.thl,st„'"reher of troops had been increased to 93,000.
RightGentleiran contained a fallacy, because the
V lor."°°d that two-thirds of the troops were kept
, esti militiry expenditure ought to be divided into two elassi
I)taiatlsQliefs and therefore it was that he and
namely, the effective and the non-effective. Tne
'e,•llrable Members had supported the proposi- -
eff,ctiee had reference to cervices actually performed.
tpltt-eliseing colonial corps, believing that it
Diet alone was under the control of Parliament, whereas
Vol. ,to it contitierehle reduction. In 1846 the *
the non-effective exteediture depended npoa the hum-
ye t 'e:l votsd wee 103,000, nnd in the following t
her of men that had been employed in the service in
Qle..ualber was 113,000. Ile (Mr. Hume) had op- I
fttlit'„' and proposcet that they should go Laelt to previous years. He foued that rho effective expendi-
d to 3.344,000/. In 1848-49 to
,tiipttci and the following pier to 95,000. " No" t"..'" in 1335 21Th'unk
4,35G,0001. It subsequently dt-creaee.l to 3 936,000/,
Ytt :yet-ninety, " we want 113,000 men, because ,
bettig a reduction cf 423,000/.; but there had still been
kiit
(,'Cr"l'''-!l:,ve 31nue regiments sent to India, whe.re
The question
of e 92,000/. since 1835, and i f 18,000 men.
y,444 IN' elle, there was peace now in India,
1..0 qae.sieori
with safety
them now to consider was, whether
lttNit °l4d not these 13,000 men be taken otl? Ile
~N''extrit men required were paid for by the th,leydacioduidofw;tB3ssaafnetdylBl approximate o xui,rhaLavte n•,:oraeocdlodsely tdo the
ill Nit. Inpuiy, and tnercfore he would not refer to
sonss'r' t.o.be shown
Otti, Lilt if the Government objected to reducing
appeared to him that the onus probwidi rested with the
itiP t°f ratte already epployed, why not stop re-
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War to state
I,„,.ii'-,„04,0 Yearficar...)- lie found, from there -
these reasons.-(Hear.) If they were determined to
:4„,` the teble that every year there were 11,000 ,
keen un so large en amount of troops as they had at pre-
, •.
311 i(1
enlisted, emit, they stopped for one year
tent ii; the colonies, he thought that they also ought to
7 et(lre something. He came now to the vote for •
\4 -)ea. - I keep up a considerable number of troops at home, be-
ie. , , 99,000 men, and he contended that the 1
,43, ?entleman heel not stated one single valid
' lis. taeY should so large force. Whet liel'-'• e4r*/
1
lie
ithuey sh‘ouTlithhe prepared. to afford those abroad re-
e question then, for them to consider
!,e_ ‘.(4 . • have.. a
Was this, whether they required so large a number as
Y"6 ' lie the Commiteee vi ae that they should
111. °0 tee " ,
ti in 11 far tee present year, and 80,000 for 40,000 men in the colonies_ 2. Fin asked the Committee,
eese of keeping up this
cA'lttittlg. Seer, which wonid in his opinion be am- to consider well
their
was th
Tltt?.t for all purposes, and produce a considers- large holy in colonies, elxnPrh returns which had
tiPte Then there was the promotion system, been presented 'Jest year to the Heoure, they nad an ac-
, tadisgrace, to their army. He had hoped to count of the expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847
Net,away with altogether, and the men raised under this head. It appeared then that the average
0,7°14 '9,3 according to their merit. They were 1 1847 amounted
expenditure for the years 1840 and
. .
to 3,500,0001. exclusive of any expense incidental to their
112tlettresent upon the mercantile system in the
i)(1;11,707.1 he held to be entirely wrong With re- fleets kept in colonial situations, which amounted to
t,'titt',lfii for India, he had no wish tu.see any re- , 1,000,000/. The direct expenditure, therefore, must be
,11,Patticeil there longer than ten years. lie knew conidered as amounting to 4,500,0001. If, then, they
hlCCdt"it that had teen obliged to remain there included the expenditure on eccouot
.of the Ordnance
41thcommissariat, the total would be 9,000,0001. The effec-
t', nr I\n 18 years, and ho certainly should not
live expenditure of tho militiry was 3,000,0001., and of
1 c'athtltite reduction teat would ieflict, on the army
non-, effective 1,000,000/. The colonies should be consi-
-1:1t pan 10 year ,ervice in India He would re-
,\ Rae 11
that in the e-ar 32 the 'numb e• i'f tiered tweler three heads-namely, military stations,
N„flit,:'Y 45,992'f0r .England,) Le:laA:aryl the Colo- plantations, and what were properly called our colonies.
Niii / were rot probably prepared fer such a re- If they wished to keep posses/ion of such colonies as
,I, Pre„ • . . ' Hong-Kone, St. Helena, Labuan, and Sarawak, they
tet,),,-, nt, but it was quite possible by and by,
this '''t'ii7s hal beceme teeir own maneg ,ro, and must make up their minds to pay for this expense,
which amounted to 500,000/. a year. 'lle would WM'
yht,1:101.1l:1 ta:io upon themelves their t;wn police
shoe' that the statistics of the Hon. and Gallant Gen-
Ititlitetta arranitemeets - the time lie had no
leman who spoke last were all wrong. At Malta, he-
et et °orate elthougli ho migl,t not live t
stead of only 1,000 men, there was at that moment 2,891
i1t,4111,;?,4 the eetablishment of 1792 weuld be found '
ttitit',tttzlt- lie ()emended that there was notating mmn•
Vtle(''n eirentristaness of the country to warrant Major BLACKALL-I only spoke of the troops of
'l4t'x'lel,l•o heyonc'i 80,000 men ; Till cause had been the line.
Sir W. MOLES 1Y calculated all the troops for
ktittoPt tent of statining well with other coma-
whose support they had to pay. In the lonian Islands
'Gtike it'eh.and thaihtaining a laree army because
they hal 0 500 men, and the expenditure amounted to
,It t lo•sia maintained thine That
used,wa not the , '`' -
)Pti 'c leot , • • 1 , d 130,000/. a year on the average. Sines the peace they
t. tt , mard suce an argument it ea
hed cxoended upon these islands 4,500,000/. The
‘ktti,t`t Government when an increase of the
erected fortifications which cost 456,000/. They conY-
Al:irtyn for on a former occasiein, the reason as-
structed a citadel that cost already 180,0004, and there
irittes that Frince had done so. He had felt it
efley te'n'ese that proposition at the time. Why, ass 96,03 e/. yet to be expended upon it. The fortress,
kt'ethrtere going to fight the battle e f Waterloo it appeared, was so large that it was deemed not to be
trietdaeless they were going t') fight the battles expedient to bring troops there to command it. So that
3‘tiitlat cis they had done beicre 'there could be
\l4t:lrSi) large a force. He thout: ht the addition the wisest thing. that they could do in case of war was
to withdraw their troops from it and to blow up the for-
tress. In riference to their plantations abroad, he would
111 Pe II Made of 600 millions to Oeir del by the
11(1111d • . ' ' - ' take the tVest Indies, and he found the troops there
t„, tth 'put it out of the power of sny Govern-
amounted to 6,500, requiring an expenditure of
tVtlti, 'rehouse of Commons to commit so great -a
500,000/. a year. He had never heard any good reason
f`toad tb-laet the Government give the people the re-
assigned for
.k-teping so large a body of troops there.
'‘''°li '" reductions they re 'tired and let them
at,' t)r their ' • q ' ' In the Mauritius they had 1,732 men, requiring an
tp ,3 safety upon the contentment and
expenditure of 90,000/. a year. In 1838 they expended
eNhi 83 and loyalty of the people, instead of noun
,0 tk (-mime A largo tanTeliot army
he never
alomeoTromitliintagry works there 200,000/., and other works
,Q,(lturite doctrinecof the' to 200,000/. more. In Ceylon the
Ntitlt't it the doctrine of the Whigs. It would number of troops was 4,000, of which 1,800 were troops
of the line, requiring an exponditure. of 83,0004 a
tAt)t •,;'c Place where they sat had something in fec-
year. He would now refer to their colonies, properly so
'tirlit,''''-e(A. laugh)-because he could brine' from
called. Ile maintained that there ought to be great re-
tmittilthit tpBPe,e.ches of the Noble Lord (J. Russell)
tt) ttii.u•tes in times past not to trust to beyonets ductions made in the military forces in those colonies.-
If„they gave them free institutions the colonies
hitiiioNl It'rY establishments, bat to depend en the (gear')
V4i)ed feeling of the people. Now the Noble should pay for all their own local government.-(Bear,)
n t.
- ( 11"1%
)
'etiltiitst 3• ready to assert that these establishments :Ibis country ought not to seep any troops there unless
"cirste'te al) to maintain the honour and dignity of it be shown that they were required for Imperial.oh-
tet ‘)t tt Ile wished to show how the various pro- jects. In Canada and their North American colonies
'lth,'r et'°,nrrny had been altered. In 1835-0 the they had 8,700 men, and in Bermuda 1,000 , entailing
an expenditure of 645,000/. a7year. He contended that
tii77lq.alry end household troops was 10,810 it
Canada should pay for the support of these troops. If
11eitti5. ,8,30, 12,850. The Foot Guards were, in
they wished to attaelathese colonies to this country they
Qt:' i'e i'''"Y were now 5.960. The infantry of the
Itttit,'llie•B3s, 79,799; in the present year they were ought to give them local government, by which they
would be enabled to manage their own affairs.-(llear,
o„,qt o'' colonial cor were, in 1.35, 5592; in
hers.) In the Cape of Good Hope they had 5,182 men,
'itthid tir ear they were 9,983. The ageregato force,
which cost this country nearly 700,0001. a year. If they
:letters! f°rmer periodd, was 100 990. and at the
'11,1'54,4"t it was' 125',625. He fecit'td. that for granted„. self government there, they would be able to
reduce the number of their troops.-(ticar. n . int
ig,o„,, aa the number required in 1835 was 23,013;
In their Australian colonies, including New Zealand, 1
lhetis,',t) ,14?)72, being an increase of between 10,000 ,
the number of troops was 4,172. Ho believed that
tlt ' • For Ireland the number in 1835 was
t i ise 2,500 of them were in New Zealand; the remainder
,!, 4(1 4413 now 25,400. For the colonies the
lteglit,‘tete '5 WSI 36.941; it was now 39,730. The were chiefly in Van Dietnetes Land, where it was said
,N,lt'sjs !hen, for Great Britain, Ire" net, and the they were required on account of the convicts. But in
New Zealand the mount (if troops was almost as large
1104141S:15 81 97 I • it was trues 99,1°S,s,lowinr,
o 40, 11,,7 ' ''' . ". • , ' 2,4 the number of the adult European population.-
,e,•1),, ie India e :nen. To incite up •le• clime increase
)1,4
5,,4 i
,t,
~ 1 , f,lO „,,0 n
en
Is in 1,35 (Bear, hear.) Ile considered, taking together the colo-
y,,n, .t,, to .t..lf ) ,i .. ) ~ . -• , . ,
lilt's
Ganda: the Cape of Good Hope, and New Zene-
,4lr, eti,-
tmonient 30.497; but as the Eest Indin i
,i.nd, )they might reduce the army by seven or eight
I,Mititlitt,,,,mi I.;riarc.ithat
He
1,0,000 Ten, he teebn!dr
it k
~4.3
t.
ha.
lie
chrhhnucd
that tho num
~ thousand men.. He would propose that reduction on the
Vitlite,e/,."au that. The peenle v.ei.e as centented Principle that the eeloeteis ought to pay all the expenses
of their military .syieetil.
:Vliit,'(' th,;'-' To.','N as in 133 re end he need teit remind ;
1 Cat,t,in BOLDER() could not understand how the
;i't,)ter th-t• there heti been -10,000 pensioners en- i „ ie
He'd in ' "A'Le estronet could vote for a reduction of 11,000 10011 tnt tat' m-that there had been 10,000 enrolled
proposed himself was a reduction of 8,000
Ofil• tEdin
,411,10r,,icc, f us, and in Eecland and Ireland an ten. 1 when all he
men. Thy observations of the lion. Baronet applied to
)1 'lO fi "ree of not less than 10,000; so here was
,ts• sp. er° men the army an the colonies, as it was his hobby to get rid
ilt,,111„ r,,,..1.n over and above the orlinery es-
of ~
e 0,..
Sir
ce, . ems. .
~
',lok h'llt3,!-"str, hear.) In the cavalry alone the"
Sir W. ItIOLESII ORTII-No, no.
Ittttavie,„"Zht he reduced to seven or. ei'kt and
Captain BOLDERO-The Hon. Baronet asked what
SR:ti:,,,el'" tiv,llri_n_lnonlie 70.t1d be in
.offiaers, birraelts,
was the uto of Hong-Kong and Van Diemen's Land.
Nis.,,,
tte 4,104hy is nts.ria, which A e appeared to bo
Sir W. MOLESWORTII-No, no.
'M v 1: ttett
c.l keeping up. large military cold).-
BOLDERO-Now, they had these two colo-
• Captain
Nti 11.4,r1., tcs m, nts of the line toek the duly of I .
nice since the Savourite yeer 1835, and they were main-
'(Pl, '414, lag a palace by rotation. They had '
). I,cd, let
somewhere about 100 reel- taining now the setne number in both colonies that they
t 1 ;
re1,0,!0 them, 10 as to make each regi- '' had in that year. One of these colonies they had taken
as a conquest, and as to the other they had it by stealth

or purchase, or, perhaps, a little of both. He supposed
that they had both for the advantage of the mercantile
interest. If it were of no use to them, he asked in God's
!mine of e het use they were to :he country? He found
that they sent their metatfactures to both places.
Now, lw asked, could they with safety to these colo-
nies reduce their array; or could they take away their
a-my from Ireland? If the Noble Lord opposite could
with confidence reduce the troops by 9,000 a year, he
would do so. The Noble Lard could not do that —he
could have no confidence in the tranquillity of Ireland,
• where thousands were starving; for at this moment he
leoked upon the people of Ireland as the most pauperised
and the most, helpless t) be found amongst all the civi-
l:ie.-el nations on the face of the earth, and therefere he said
that they dare not withdraw their troops from Ireland.
—([liar.) And then they knew this, that there was not
at the present moment a crowned head in Europe that
was not sustained by the f tree of bayou( t;.—(lleir.)
There were from 300,000 to 400,000 soldiers in France,
as well as iu Prussia, and seeing this he said it would be
the worst possible policy for the English to reduce their
army below the prefer standard.—( dear.) It was said
thus with railways they required less soldiers. Railways
were of use in case of an invasion; but they were of no
use in cese of an internal commotion. In such a case, it
they reduced the troops, they,would find some of the
inenulareturing distric's without troupe. Let thorn sup.
pose that there was a row in Liverpool, and that the
troops were seat there to check the di: turbance, then
those who might bo disposed to excite commotion could
gel fey the train in one hour to Manchester, and burn
property. Toe Manchester people would then require
troops. They would be wanted at both places at the same
Mee. The piteous in Manchester would complain that
they paid taxes as well as those in Liverpool, and were
entitled to the same protection. In point of tact,
the troops were mainly quartered in these districts. In
Wales there was scarcely a single soldier. In Scotland,
with the exception of Glasgow and Edinburgh, there
were scarcely any troops. In the rural dlstriefie there
was scarcely si single soldier to he found.—(He sr.) The
whole force was kept up merely to defend the property
of Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Hear, hear.) And yet
with all this they heard constantly repeated outside the
walls of that House that the army was kept up to pro-
vide for the aristocracy.—(Hear.) It was unjust and
unfair to the army for men without any knowledge of the
manner in which it was composed thus to speak of it.
The aristocracy was not provided for in the army more
than any other class of her Majesty's subjects. The ob-
servation as to the aristocracy did not apply to any of
the troops, with the exception of the Household Brigade
and the Guards—and even amongst them was to be
found a fair sprinkling from other classes; whereas more
than one-half of the officers in their heavy cavalry regi-
ments were the sons of mercantile men, and in the ma-
rines, the artillery, and the engineers, there was scarcely
one officer connected with the aristocracy; whilst as to
the officers of the line, it was notorious that almost every
interest was fairly represented in it.—(Hear, hear.)
The Honourable Member for Montrose had declared
that there were 45,000 more men this year than in 1835,
and to make out that calculation he included men in
their dockyards, some of whom were not employed
more than one week. As to the Hon. Member for the
West Riding, he had affirmed that they had more
officers than was necessary—that there was one officer
to every twelve men. He did not know how the
lion. Gentleman, with his powers of calculation, was
able to make out that statement. Taking the number
of officers and of men they did not make up the amount
of lin 12. Taking out of the number those who were
not working officers they would find the officers were
not 1 in 12, but 1 in 30 ; and taking all classes
of officers, including the surgeons, they were
not lin 12, but lin 18. What with officers sick, &c.,
there was scarcely enough of officers, and they often
heard from India that they had not officers enough.
The Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the West Riding
had also said that he had taken advice as to the cone

position and management of their army, from officers,
not officers of the English army, but officers of Hanover
or Hangary—(Laughter) for one authority was as
good as the other.—(Laughter.) Now, he said they
were nut to be bound by the authority of foreigners ;
they were equal to all foreigners; they were superior to
thew; and it:the Hon. Gentleman liked their discipline,
he (Captain Boldero) could say that he did tot. In
conclusion, he begged to say, that if a reduction such
us proposed were adopted, it would tend to promote dis-
content and disaffection iu every part of her Majesty's
dominionF.

Mr. MACGREGOR gave credit to her Majesty's
Government for the reductions effected by them, and
which coincided with calculations of his own some few
years since. He stated the number of troops employed
by foreign Governments, and then added, anxious as he
was to reduce taxation, and especially the window-tax,
whenever the revenue would enable him to do it—he
said that he was aware that the present Chancellor of
the Exchequer was as anxious to reduce expenditure
and economise the finances of the country as any man
could possibly be.
Sir B. HALL was bound to say that whenever the
troops were called upon t 3 act in this country they al-
ways acted with extraordinary forbearance. At the
same etne, being anxious to reduce the taxation of the
country, he could not vote for a continuance of this ex-
penditure; and after the discussion that was now taking
place, followed as it would be by a division, the Noble
Lord would be able to say to many Hon. Gentlemen
that they would not vote fur a reluetion of taxation be-
cause they had voted for expenditure. As a landed
proprietor, he would be glad if there was a reduction of
taxation, and us a representative of a metropolitan bo-
rough, he desired a repeal of the window-tax, and it
was to enable him to do EU with a safe conscience that
he would vote for the proposal of his Hon. Friend.
They wet e in a situation in which they could reduce
their army; they were at peace with the world, and tte
crown of teeir Monarch was not like that of foreign
Sovereigns, for it was ritt, as the lion. and Gallant
Member for Chippenham had declared, "sustained by
bayonets."
Captain BOLDERO explained.
Mr. STANFORD, though not familiar wit's army
accounts, had taken the trouble of going through these
estimates page by page, and could not help expressing
his admiration at the manner in which they had been
prepared. Every discredit bad attempted to be thrown
on that noble service.—(On, oh.) There was a party
in this country, and he had during the recess read
a pamphlet written by one of them, who asserted
that the army was maintained for the bene-
fit cf the aristocracy, and that regiments were
merely speculations of the colonels. Any man, how-
ever, of plain common understanding, without being a
military men or familiar with accounts, could take up
these, estimates, see how every shilling was spent, and
whether any one item was capable of reduction or nor,
upon which he would not then enter. He thought it
creditable to any Government to have placed such clear
estimates before the country. The point under consi-
deration was, whether the Government asked for a
larger force than was necessary t t maintain peace at
home, the dignity of the empire abroad, and likewise to
preserve our colonial possessions. With regard to the
first, it was perfectly clear that there must be a sufficient
force at home to back the law. Of what avail would be
the sentences of judges, if there was no force at hand to
enforce them. It might be said that they might be
carried out by the means of the police force. Thet he
denied. When Honourable Gentleman opposite voted
for these re-lac:ions in the name of the people, he should
be glad if they would explain what they meant by the
word people. Did they include amongst them the pick-
pockets, thieves, convicts, and mendicants, that large
body which belonged to what were called the
dangerous classes ? These, according to an eminent
statist, amounted to no less than 60,000 or 70,000,
always ripe for anarchy and confusion. Was it to be
supposed that such men were to be kept in restraint by
3,000 or 4,000 constables. This country was not Prance,
with but one metropolis to keep in order. There was
Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, and Glasgow, with
from 200,000 to 300,000 inhabitants each, each requiring
a garrison, .not to tyrannise over the people, or deprive
them of their political liberties and rights, but to pre-
vent disorder. It was monstrous to hear men get up and
talk of Englishmen being tyrannised over, when every
country admired our constitution, and adopted it as a
model in constructing their own out of the embryo of re-
volution. Where were the petitions asking the House
to disband our forces, or reduce them? Where there
any from either this country or the colonies? They
might desire reduction of taxation, but he knew of no
application for reduction in this direction, the result of
which would be to check the spread of our commerce by
withdrawing protection from our colonies. Why, it was
asked, were 2,000 men maintained in New Zealand,
where there where only a few savages to keep
in check? Why, a perusal of the dispatches from
that colony would show that it was principally from
the inadequacy of the force maintained there
that the war had; beeksio much prolonged. In
Canada, too, it was said, what necessity can
there he for maintaining 5,000 men? Better give them a
constitution. It was unnecessary to go now into the
causes of the late rebellion; but would any one main-
tain that a reduction of the force would not have in-
creased the desire of America to obtain that colony?
At the Cape it was equally clear that a strong force was
requisite to resist the constant attacks of the Kafirs on
the frontier. He rather doubted the trustworthiness of
the sources from which the Hon. Member for the West ,

Riding drew his facts. Ho did not wish to cast any im-
putation on the Hon. Member, but, when imputations
were cast on the distinguished hero who was a glory to
his country, and whose name would be handed down to
posterity surrounded by a halo of renown, he had a right
to doubt anything coming from such a source.
The Honourable Member for the West Riding
had also spoken slightingly of our naval force.
He was sorry that any natural-born British subject
should desire to depreciate that service, and must re-
gard him, if not an alien in blood, at least an silica in
spirit. He was glad to hear the Minister state that ho
was determined not to suffer one of our colonies to be
taken from us, and to support that determination, which
wal supported on both sides, he must nec,ssarily come
down to the House and ask for an adequate force. It
would not be doing the Government justice, which he
was always disposed to render them, after they bad made
all these reductions, when they had brought our forces
ai ;ow ns they could he conststentiy with the
of our pwition ahroad,and the maintenance of our
colonies, to call on them to make a further reduction of
so great an extent. lie was not ordinarily a supporter
of the Government, but on this occasion they should have
his sincere and hone..t support, when they had come
manfully forward, end, disdaining all low arts of popu-
larity, had shown themselves desirous to maintain the
honour and glory of their country.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. OSBORNE said that the Hon. Member who had
just addressed the House seemed to have gathered his
idea of the army from the proceedings of the select ves-
try of which he was at one time a Member—he seemed
to look upon it as a sort of new police.--(H.,ar, hear.)
And when he asked where was the cry for the reduction
of the army he seemed to have forgotten the cimplaint
Of that same select Ttstry againtt the sixpenny rate fog

such a system would introduce not only greater vigour,
but greater economy into the army. It was well
known that the Secretary at War was only a finance
Secretary; he had no more power to carry out any re-
form than other Hon. Members, and it was therefore
unfair to fall foul of him in that House for not doing
so. The fault was not in him but in the sys-
tem; and so long as the present system was kept up he
held that, with all deference to the Hon: Member (Mr.
Stanford), who was so enamoured with the novel manner
in which the estimates were drawn up—though it was
precisely the same as had been in use for thirty or forty
years past—so long would there be profuse expenditure.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West
Riding had made one assertion in which he (Mr. Os-
borne) took leave to differ from him—viz., that the army
was kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN—What I said was, that such was the
assertion of the Liverpool Financial Reform Association.
Mr. OSBOTI,NE—Oh! the association that published
several ignorant tracts.—(Laughter.) He(Mr. Osborne)
could assure his Hon. Friend, and the Liverpool Finan-
cial Reform Association too, that he had taken particular
pains on the subject, and he found that the great pro-
portion of officers in one branch of the service—the
heavy Dragoons—were the sons of capitalists who bad
made their money in a far and honest way—(Hear)—
and that a great proportion of the officers of the infantry
were sons of very poor men, who had gone into the
army as a profession. He maintained, then, that with
one or two exceptional regiments, the working branch
of the army was not kept up for the benefit of
the aristocracy.—(Hear, heir.) He thought, however,
that the Hon. Member for the West Riding was per-
fectly justified in his assertion with respect to the dis-
proportion which existed between the number of officers
and men. He found that for an army of 100.000 men
there were nine field-marshals, 58 generals, 67 lieute-
nant-generals, and 174 major-generals—a staff much
greater than that of the French army of 450,000 men—
(Hear, hear)—with half a million of national guards into
the bargain. The Hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr.
Macgregor), who had come out on this occasion in his
new character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
who would not have them reduce anything, had said that
the French army cost double what ours cost; but he had
omitted to mention that that included the whole of the
ordnance, while ours did not.—(Hear, hear.) He must
say, too, that he thought it unfortunate that the general
officers were paid from the profits of the clothing estab-
lishment.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that a fixe
annual payment would not only place the officers in a
more respectable position, hut might bo the moans of
savin4 40,000/. a year.—(Bear, hear.) It was curious
to notice the difference between the cost of clothing in
the various departments of the army. The clothing of
a private of the line, he feline, cost 21. 65., the foot
guards 31. 155., the cavalry of the line 4/., the
Blues Si. 45., the Life Guards 61. 13s. 3d., being more
than double the co.t in the cavalry of the line. And
such dresses as they were tx, ! Cuirasses in which he
was sure the man could never strike a blow, and enor-
mous boots in which even their large bodies were lost. j

—(Laughter.) The clothing of tire French troops
amounted to 11. 13s. 2d. per man; that of the Prussian
troops to 11. 15s. 10d.; while that of the English troops
was not less than 3/., more than double that of the
French, and almost double that of tt.e Prussian.—(Hear,
hear.) So lung, however, as the system of the culoec.s
clothing the men continued, so long would this mom-
trows discrepancy also continue. If the Secretary at
War had any interest at all at the Horse Guards,
which he did not believe him to have more than
any corporal of the army—(A laugh)—he ought to
set about the entire alteration of this system.
His Honourable Friend had told the House that the
Austrian cavalry regiments bad not half the number
of officers, as compared with men, that the Euglish regi-
ments bad; and such was the fact. Yet, was the former
inferior to that of the latter? Very far from it
indeed; on the contrary, the Austrian regiments
could do things in the way of zranceuvrieg that we
had no notion of in this country. In an English cavalry
regiment what did he find? That there were actually
one officer to every seven men on dismonnted parade,
and one officer to every six men on mounted parade,
whereas in Austria one officer and ono non-commissioned
officer were found amply sufficient for every forty men.
—(Cheers.) He wanted to know why the same propor-
tion would not be found equally efficient here.—(Bear,
hear.) Then there was this agency charge of 32,0001.
per annum. He wanted to know what this was conti-
nued for, not to ask why it had ever bent established/
The Indian army, where it might be supposed an agency
was wanted, if anywhere, had no agency eLtablishment.
This 32,0001. was money actually wasted. Ile would
suggest, further, that much good might be done, and a
considerable saving effected, he
J appointing half-pay
officers to situations in the Adjutant-General's office, the
Quartermaster-General's-office, and other eiimilar esta-
blishments. Much less salaries would suffice than
were paid to the prevent class of officials, whom he
found retiring after 40 years' service upon a
pension cf 700/. a year, while general officers
who had actually served their country for 40 years,
many of them perhaps occupied in the field against
the enemy, and who, moreover, had paid in hard cash for
their promotions 4,000/. or 5,0001., were fain to retire
upon 4001. per annum—(Hear, hear) —and as to the
purchase-money of commissions and promotions, let him
observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman had only spoken
of the regulation prices, whereas everybody knew that
the unfortunate officer had to pay at each step a round
sum over and above the regulation price. He was very
glad to hear of the contemplated examination of officers;
it was an examination which would do good in more
ways than one ; for among other things, to educate the
officers would open their eyes more widely to the evil
and injustice of the system of commissions by purchase.
—(Hear, hear.) He was quite satisfied that the various
modes which he had indicated fully a million a year
might be saved. Expecting
no good in this direction
from the Committee now sitting up stairs, he should vote
with his Hon. Friend.

Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. Gentleman seemed
to insinuate that there was some particular reason for
his (Mr. Stanford's) having left the parochial position
to which reference had been made. What did the Hon.
Gentleman mean to suggest?
Mr. OSBORNE said he had never till that evening
heard of the Hon. Gentleman filling any parochial situa-
tion at all.
Colonel CHATTERTON expressed his regret at the
reduction made in the allowance for gratuities and
medals for meritorious services. He thought, too, that
the defective accommodation in barracks should be
remedied, for it frequently happened that the ill-con-
ducted soldier was better cared for in prison than the
well-conducted one in barracks. For his own part, with
reference; tol the well-being of the soldier, he was most
happy that flogging had been in great part done away
with, and that they were able to preserve the effective
discipline of the army without having recourse to so de-
grading a punishment; but when Hon. Gentlemen com-
plained of the private soldier never rising to command in
a regiment, how, he should like to know, was a man,
without any private means of his own to support the ex-
penditure incident to such a position and rank?
Mr. MUNTZ said that so long as we kept our colo-
nies he certainly did not see how we were to reduce our
army. For his part, he said by all means give up the
colonies, since there was no advantage we got from them
in a commercial point of view that we should not get
such more amply from them if they were independent
of us. Not that he wante.l England to cast her colonies
cif; no, only if any of them said they were shin to stand
on their own bottoms, and would like to leave us, by all
means let us reply, " We are much obliged to you, the
sooner you go the better."—(Laughter.) As it was, he
Inuit support th, Government on this oecasior.

sla;uld support Colon-e 1 SIBTIIOIIP said ho certainly
the Government, al(' if the Government had found it
necessary to ask for an augmentation of the army, he
should have supported it ; Cavendo tutus" was his
motto.

Colonel REID said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had stated that he should possibly be able to announce,
in the course of a short time, the np.turc of the exami-
nation to which of would he subjected previous to
their promotion. He wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman, Kai he prepared to state now what that ex-
amination would be ? Ilk was to be an cxamination of a
character such as that lately adopted on the admission of
'Akers to the service, he should oppose it iu every pos-

Bible way. If officers who had been for years serving
their country in various; parts of the world were to be
subjected to a sort of scholastic exarnineion—if the title
to promotion was to be determined by a proficiency in
algebra and Cocker, it was sufficient to disgust them. For
his own cart, he would rather throw up his commission
than be subjected to it. He thought the new regulation
perfectly uncalled far; as there never was a period when
the officers of the army were so well educated as they
now were. The evil at present was, that there was no
incentive to proficiency in study iu the military profes-
sion. Ho would institute an examination of a voluntary
and optional character. He would invite the officers
to offer themselves as candidates, and he would esta-
blish a board of examiners, composed of officers of the
highest rank, who should examine the candidates upon
every branch of their profession. He could not sit down
without observing that there never was an occasion to
which the observation of the Hon. Member for Dum-
fries, that the British army was fee most unintellectual
one in Europe, so little applied as the present. There
was no ground whatever for such an nate tints.
Mr. COBDEN said, that while there was an apparent
reduction of 4,126 men, there had been 2,230 men trans-
!erred to India, leaving only 1,896 as the real reduction.
There wore also 128 officers less charge I in the ac-
counts; but the real reduction was only 32, for there
were 96 drafted to India. Of all the ranks of officers,
down to second lieu ©pants and ensigns, the number last
3 ear was 5,103, while fir the pre erat 3 ear the number
was 5,105, so that the reduction, 932, took place amongst
the a ljutatite quartermasters, and surgeons. That was
sufficient to justify the demand for reform. They
draftee off the rank and file—they reducel tile effiestivo
force of the army, but they did not reduce the num-
bers of the offices. With reference to the future force
to be kept up, a good deal had been said connecting that
question with the course to be taken toward the colonies.
No doubt all depended upon the nature of that course,
and the Hon. Member for Southwark had cited statistics
with respect to the colonies which were sufficient to
justify the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
The present was the time to settle the question, when
they were about to grant constitutions to the colonies.
If, indeed, they had a voice in framing the estimates, as
was the case in France and the United States, the7,case
might be different; but they knew nothing of the esti-
mates until they were laid before them in the House, and
the only question submitted to them was, whether they
would vote a certain number of men, and on that number
would depend the expenditure. There should be no
postponement of a decision of his question,, and how, he
should ask, could Government reduce the expenditure
if the establishments were not reduced? The ought to
insert a clause in the colonial constitutions requiring
them to maintain the cost of their own police and mili-
tary establishments.
Lord J. MANNERS concurred with the Hon. Mem-
ber for the West Riding, that the speech of the Hon.
Member for Southwark was the only one of all those
delivered by the supporters of the motion of the Hon.
Member for Montrose which offered anything like an
argument in its favour. But he thought he could show
that the Hon. Gentleman's speech, which was thus so
much relied on by the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, made rather against the motion, for the Hon.
Member considered that 7,500 men only could be struck
off; whereas the motion was to strike off 10,000 men.
That certainly did not support the conclusion arrived at
by the Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Member for Mid-
dlesex had touched upon the question of the clothing of
the army, and he (Lord Manners) would express
a hope that in future years care would be taken
that no room would be given for those painful and dis-
graceful discussions with which the country had been
startled during the autumn, and that they might be
able to entertain the conviction that the clothing of the
army would be carried on upon principles of justice and
humanity, and that they might not have their con-
sciences affected by the apprehension that those poor
people for whom ao much sympathy had been ex-
pressed were reduced to a position at once painful and
degraded.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH explained that what he had
said was, that in the colonies, properly so called, the
reduction might amount to 7,500 men; but taking our
possessions into consideration, the reduction might be
much greater—equal certainly to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Montrose.
Colonel DUNNE denied that it would be any advan-
tage to reduce the number of cavalry officers, for they
must have a nucleus for each regiment on its comple-
ment being completed. He did not think the British
cavalry at all over efficient; and with regard to three of
our possessions—Gibraltar, Malta, and Corfu, he be-
lieved the garrisons were not more than sufficient. Ile,
had to thank the Secretary at War for the attention
which he had paid to the education of the army.
Mr. V. SMITH said that the Hon. anel Gallant Officer
had alluded to fortresses, while the Hon. Member for
Southwark had referred to colonies. He agreed with the
Hon. Member for Southwark and the Hon. Member for
the West Riding, as to the necessity of reducing the
number of troops in the colonies; but he was not pre-
pared to support the motion of the Hon. Member for
Montrose, because if they voted a reduction of 10,000
men, the vote would not be understood by the country.
Last year the Secretary at War stated to the Committee
which inquired into the subject that ho had written
to ono of our most important colonies, the Cape,
that in future they would have to rely on themselves for
defence. His own opinion was, that the troops in some
of our colonies ought to be witdrawn, or the expense
thrown upon the colonies. He felt convinced that the
Kafir wur would never have arisen if we had not had
troops in the colony—(Laughter and dissent). A former
ear ha .f been more easily suppressed by the inhabitants
of the colony than the last war had been by the troops.
He agreed with the Hon. Member for the West Riding,
that as they were about to leave the colonists to self-
government, they ought also to leave to them the duty
of self-defence (Hear, hear.) Some intimation should
be made to the colonists of the policy which Govern-
ment meant to pursue towards them in this respect.
Danger might arise from leaving matters in their pre-
seat state. Canada had obtained responsible govern-
ment, and if it inclined to annexation with the United
States, our troops in the colony might act, and we should
be involved in war—(Hear.) We should therefore come
to some understanding with our colonies with regard to
their defence. Free trade and the repeal of the Navi-
gation Act had completely changed the relations be-
tween us and our colonies; and the time was therefore
favourable for entering into some new arrangement with
them, so that we might know what to expect from them
and they from us. If there was to be a separation,
he would have it take place on, good terms, and not on
bad.—(Hear.)

the increase of the new police. But, if the speech of the
Hon. Member fer Reading was extraordinary, that of
. the Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham was
still more so. The one represented the civil reasons in
support of the estimates; the other the military reasons.
The Hon. and Gallant Member fur Chippenham had
said V.a; we kept up a large force in the colonies be-
cause the people were discoacentel with the mode of
government there, and in Ireland beceuse the people
were starving. The Hon. and Gallant Membeis receipt
for the misery at Kilrush would probably be an addi-
tional regiment!—(Hear, hear.). The Hon. and Gallant
Member seemed to represent the British soldier in the
farce, striking his breast and appealing to the honour of
the British army, amidst the ready cheers of the
audience. He (Mr. Osborne) believed the British
soldier to be as honourable, but not more so
than• any other British gentleman ; and he
confessed that he, for one, would not be disposel to
ask the counsel of the British soldier as to what reduc-
tion should be made :in his profession, as his mind was
as liable to he warped as any ether person a. Was not
the abolition of flogging resisted from year to year by
the members of the military profession? and if it had
not been for the lebours of a civilian (he nit ant the Hoe.
Member for Montrose), what system of punishment
should we have had in the army at the precut moment?
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member fur
Chippenharn had expressed greet indignation at the
Hon. Member for the West Riding comparing our mili-
tary System with that of Austria or Prussia. Had the
Hon. and Gallant Member forgotten that our military
system wee stolen from Prussia—that our infantry was
reenceevred upon the Pruslian system? The Hon. and
Gallant Member giso said that it was notorious the army
was nyder-officered in Indict—forgetting, or not know-
ing, that it was not the Queen's troops but, the Com-
pany's troops that were in this situation. His Hon. Friend
the Member Cr Montrose had said that there was some-
, thing in the Ministerial benches that seemed to con-
. teiminate the men that sat on them. He (Mr. Osborne)
did agree with him in that. He believed there was a ,
power, independent of the Minist:rial benches, which '
would hinder any Government, whether Whig or Tory,
from carrying out refo'rm in the army, and that that
power proceeded from the Horse Guards.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
verninent, with the best intentions, and the Right Hon.
Gentlemen the Secretary at War, with the best know- I
ledge of the subject, would not be allowed to carry their
policy into execution while the present system of ma-
naging the.army prevailed. Why Was not the Horse
Guards, the Ordnance Department, and the Commis-
sariat under the Treasury all combined and placed under
one head? Why was there not a Minister of War ap-
pointed with a seat in the Cabinet, or, if necessary, a
seat in that House, as was recommended by the Com-
mission which sat in 1837? It was evident that

ler for Ch,
Mr. REYNOLDS regretted he could not support the
motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The Hon.
and
Gallant
s ppo rbe them army
in lirpepiaenti,h Rimromh and feelingstate stated
he
would u
of
compassion towards the impoverished people of that
country. The Hon. Member for Birmingham had called
it a colonial question. It was so in our distant colonies,
but in our Irish colony it was a Church Establishment
question. Some connexion might he traced in Ireland
between the tent and the tabernacle. Ira our Irish colony
there were at present 22,000 troops, 12,000 pensioners,
and 12,000 constabulary—in round number 3, 44,000 ac-
tive troops in Ireland, not for the purpose of ministering
to the poverty of the people, but for the purpose :of
forcing hostile institutions upon the people of that coun-
try. If the Hon. Member for Montrose had come down
manfully, and had moved for the reduction of the tem-
poralities of the Irish Church—(Question)—and had
connected it with a motion for the reduction of the troops
in Ireland, he should have supported him. If the mili-
tary force was to be retained at its present amount, he
would have it all quartered in Ireland, so that the peo-
ple might have the tonefit of the money spent by the
troops.—(A laugh.)
Alderman SIDNEY said be was a decided friend to
retrenchment and economy, and should vote for the mo-
tion of the Hon. Member for Montrose. The power of
paying taxes had been greatly lessened by the measures
lately passed by Parliament, and he should vote for this
motior, as he should for the motion of the Hon. Member
for Surrey to-morrow night.
Lord J. RUSSELL would not enter at all into the
general question whether there should be a reduction of
10,000 men beyond the reduction of 4,000 men proposed
by Government. The statement, however, made by the
Hon. Member for Northampton required some notice.
As he understood the Hon. Member, he seemed dis-
posed to lay down the principle, that, as the colonies
were to have self-government, lied as this country had
adopted a free-trade policy, the colonies ought to be left
to themselves for their own defence. Now he (Lord J.
Russell) could not assent to that doctrine. He was com-
pletely opposed to any excessive or unnecessary military
force in the colonies, as he should be to any excessive
or superfluous force in the United Kingdom; but he
could not consent to lay down the principle that the colo-
nies should rely on their own resources for their defence.
—( Hear.) Ho should rather say that we should proportion
our forces to the wants of each colony, according to the
circumstances in which they were placed. With respect
to our military fortresses, such as Gibraltar, Malts, and
the lonian Islands, it had not been denied that the forces
were insufficient. With regard to some of the colonies,
there had been a considerable reduction in the forces. In
Jamaica and in the West Indies generally the force now
was 4,500 less than is 1835, and in Australia consider-
able reductions had been made. The force of 4,000 had
been reduced 2,620, making a reduction of 1,380 men.
Wherever, indeed, reductions could be made it was de-
sirable in his opinion to make them; but there were
occasions when a necessity existed of sending addi-
tional forces to the colonies, and in such cases of avert-
ing danger from the colonies.—(Hear, hear.) Neither
should ho think that fortified places in the colonies
ought to be left to be guarded by troops raised by the
colonists. He should be sorry if we were to withdraw
our troops from such a fortress as that of Quebec, and
leave Canada to provide for its own defence.—(llear,
hear.) Without going, therefore, into the general
question, he must decline agreeing to the general
principle laid down by the Hon. Member for Northamp-
ton. He should be ready to reduce the number of our
troops in any particular colony, if good reason should be
shown for so doing. But he could not agree to the
general principle of telling our colonies that they were
not hereaf, er to have any assistance from the mother
country.—(hear. hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH said that in the argument ho had
used be bad relied on the communication made by Earl
Grey to Sir 11. Smith, to the effect that in any future
Kafir war the inhabitants of the Cape should rtly upon
the mselves.

Lord J. RUSSELL said that when his Noble Friend
had written that dispatch ho had not intended that the
inhabitants of the Care were nut to use the troops that
might be in the colony; but had merely meant to state
that they should not expect that this country would
incur a fresh increase of expenditure to meet a Kafir
But that case rather confirmed what he (Lord J.
ussell) had said, that each case should stand upon its
own merits. New Zealand had not at present a
representative constitution, although it might have
one in a few years; but this country ought not,
110 &11911014 ou that 6009Un& to from

war.

it all its military force. It was true that some of the
North American states had risen to great prosperity
without having had British troops to assist them. But
it so happened that, during the early Aistory of those
colonies, their inhabitants had been massacred three or
four times before the settlement hai been firmly estab
Hsi:ed.—(Heer, hear.) He confessed he should have
been afraid that, with a population of 100,000 natives of
a very werlike character in New Zealand, the English-
men there might have been similarly massacred, if
they had not enjoyed the protection of a military force.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said that, in his opinion, the
Crown lands ought to be retained by the Crown until
the colonies agreed to pay their military and naval
expenses.
Ste J. WALSH said that the Hon. Member for the
West Riding of Yorkshire had said he did not under-
stand how those Members who should then vote against
the
.motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose could
vote on the following (this) evening for the motion of
the Hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. H. Drummond).
But motions of that description should be judged upon
their own merits. He readily admitted that there
ought to be as much economy practised as was con-
sistent. with the due discharge of the public service.
But the party with which he had the honour to act
was not a popularity-hunting party. They believed that
as her Majesty's Government had already effected large
reductions in the establishments of this country, and as a
certain force was necesssary to the due performance of
great public duties, they did not think that in the pre-
sent circumstances of this country arid of Europe they
ought to adopt that proposed reduction of 10,000 men.
Perhaps the ;Ilion. Member for the West Riding of
Yorkshire would allow him to allude to an expression
which had been imputed to him in the public journals.
The Hon. Member was reported to have said that by
some purely pacific process he would crumple up the
empire of Russia. He wished to know if the Hon.
Member still thought himself capable of performing
such a feat. The Hon. Gentleman had some experience
of the means by which the prosperity of a great empire
was crumpled ; and he (Sir J. Walsh) believed that if
the Hon. Genteman were allowed to go to Russia. and
carry on there a system of political agitation, he might
succeed to some extent at least in accomplishing his
object. But he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would
try the experiment ; and for his part he only wished he
would.
Mr. F. MAULE said a question had been put to him
by an Hon. and Gallant Member opposite, to which he
wished to give an answer, in order to prevent the pos-
sibility of a mistake on a subject to which he had al-
ready alluded. Ho had to state that it was not at pre-
sent contemplated that the second examination of officers
previously to their being appointed captains, should be
enforced; but he hoped that that arrangement might
hereafter be adopted. He believed that unless the ad-
vance of the officers in information kept pace with that of
the men, the discipline of the army would be shaken or
endangered. With reference to the question put tb him
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex (Mr.
Osborne), on the subject of clothing, ho had to state that
he admitted the importance of that matter, but he should
then offer no opinion with respect to it, as it would be
minutely inquired into and reported upon by the Com-
mittee up stairs. The Committee would decide whether
or not the present practice on the subject should be ad-
hered to.
Mr. HUME replied. After the great increase which
had been made to the number of our troops since the
year 1835, and the creation since that period of enrolled
pensioners, dockyard battalions, and other corps, he felt
that he was fully justified in submitting his proposal to
the Committee.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hume's amendment 50
For the original motion ... 223
Majority —173
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 1,700,0001. on account fcr
deft aying the charges of the land forces.
Mr. HUME said he had done his duty. Honourable
Gentlemen opposite did not appear to be advocates of
financial reform, and as he was not likely to be sup-
ported in again dividing the House, he would not occupy
their attention further.

Mr. HERRIES said the present mode of proceeding
was a repetition of the course pursued last session,
and he considered it a most inconvenient mode of dis-
patching the public business, fur no opportu-
nity was afforded of discussing the propriety
of different items of expenditure. He should like
to know if there was any probability that the
investigation of the Committee up stairs would lead to
any material reduction in the votes. Ha thought the
attention of the Committee of the whole House ought to
be directed to the reduction of the expenditure but con-
sidered the present mode of proceeding had a direct ten-
dency to defeat the object.
Lord J. RUSSELL 'agreed that if the present course
was taken every year it would be objectionable; but the
Committee reported from time to time, and it was de-
sirable to wait for the report. With regard to the navy
estimates and the ordnance, they were placed before the
House in the ordinary manner.
Sir 11. WILLOUGHBY inquired why there had been
an increase in the vote under the head of " movement of
troops" to the extent of 14,0001.?
Mr. F. MAULE said it had been considered de-
sirable to effect a general movement of the troops during
the past year. It would be extremely inconvenient to
keep them three years in the same quartere, and the
increased expenditure had been causcu by thu general

movement.
The Yotl was then agreed to.
NAVY ESTIMATES.
Sir P. BARING rose to make his igatcment on the
navy eatimatea, when

Captain HARRIS objected to proceed at so late an
hour of the evoning.—(" Oh, oh!" and cries of " Go on!")
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would bo a disappoint-
ment to the House if the financial statement were not
made on Friday ; and if the navy estimates were not
taken on that night, it would be impossible that it could
be then made.—(Bear, hear.)
Captain HARRIS had understood that a full discus-
sion cf the navy estimates would be permitted befno
Easter.

Mr. J. A. SMITH would move that the Chairman
report progress.—(" No, no!")
Mr. HUME asked what this statement had to do with
the budget? The budget could be proceeded with per-
fectly well without it.—(A laugh.)
After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN,
Sir F. BARING said he would only take a vote as to
the number of men, a❑d not the wageb.—(llear.)
Captain HARRIS, with great deference to the Hon.
Gentleman, must say that it was a very unusual course
to go at once from one Committee to another.—(" No,
no.") He would only say that by this proceeding he
was debarred from making a statement that he wished
to make on the question " that the Speaker do leave the
chair," with reference to manning the navy.—(" Go on,
go on.") _ _

Sir F. BARING then proceeded. The vote which be
had to propose to the Committee was a vote fixing the
number of men at 39,000, and in doing so be would, as
was usual on such occasions, bring before them a state-
ment of the general features of the different votes to
which he would hereafter have to call their attention.
The first vote to which he had to allude was one that
he should bring forward with the more regret if he did
not entertain the hope that it would be the last vote of
that character that the Committee would be called upon
to make—ho meant the vote for making up the deficit of
a former year.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask taem to
vote for the deficiency of 1848-49 the sum of 211,0001.,
by which in that year the expenditure had gone beyond
the estimates. This the House was aware had occurred
on many previous occasions; and it would perhaps be re-
collected that the late First Lord of the Admiralty
stated last year that the deficit was likely to be from
250,0001. to 260,0001. It had not, however, reached that
sum. He had always been of opinion, on whatever
side of the House he happened to be, that the mode of
making up by the Votes of a subsequent year the deficiency
of former estimates was a most unfortunate course
to pursue; but it was a course not uncommon of late
years. One of the causes from which this arose was
the insufficiency of the sum voted for the number of
seamen borne. All who were on the Committee of 1848
were aware that this incorrect mode of laying the esti-
mates came on very gradually, the evil being very small
at first, but becoming serious and important in the end.
—(Hear, bear.) The sum voted for the number had
been constantly below what was really necessary; besides
which it was well known that the vote for wages was at
best but a very loose statement, merely an approximate
estimate, and that the excess expended over the esti-
mate was generally very considerable.—(Hear, hear.)
It was also to be noted that in 1848, when the estimates
were proposed, the House baring received them was so
adverse to their passing that lower estimates were
brought forward. The Government were anxious, as
far as possible, to come within the lower estimates thus
made, but it was found extremely difficult in so short a
time as was allowed them to reduce the expenditure to
the extent required, and the result had been that the
expenditure, though below the general estimate,
was not below the estimate subsequently given
in. These things would in some measure account
for the deficiency now to be made up •, but he
was happy to say that this course would not be pursued
on a future occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He was able to
state that though there had been expenses they were not
prepared for, yet there would be a surplus for the year
1849-50 such as would enable them to meet in some de-
gree the deficiencies of 184 S-49. lie would now proceed
with the general statement of the estimates. He gave for
the effective service for 1850-51 a sum 014,325,086/ ; for
the non-effective 5ervi1ce5,,01,03081.8:6371.; add to this for' the
conveyance of troops 5
764,2361., and they had a totalandservice
of for the packet-
6,613,6591.—(Hear,
hear.) As compared with 1849-50, the reduction in the
effective service was 406,9721, non-effective service,
5,5331., conveyance of troops, 11,0001.—in all, 624,005/.;
deducting 16,0001. for increase in the packet•service, it
amounted to 608,005/. But that was not quite a fair
comparison. Comparing the expenditure of 1848-49
with the estimates of 1850 51, Vie ens() stood thus:—
expenditure for 1848-49, 7,947,3761.; estimate
for 1850-51, 6 613,6591.; Lotng• a difference of
1,333,7171.—(Cries of " hear, hear.") He was auxi-
ous to state to the House that great and important
advantages bad been derived from the labours of the
Committee of 1848, because it would show that their re-
commendations had not been neglected; and he also
whed to state that he took no credit to himself for the
reductions that had been made, because they had been
enabled to carry them into effect by the expenditure of
former years. But for the expenditure that had formerly
been made in several instances, it would have been im-
possible now to have made the reductions that had been
effected. Taking the three votes together—rameiy, for
men,_ wages, and rictualliog, the reduction inconsequence
of the proposed reduction of 1,000 men would be about
50,0001. The Committee recommended that an altera-
tion should be made in the mode of estimating the wages
of the men which had been for many years adopted.
That which was considered a great source of incorrect-
peas had hew altered, and the estimate fer the last year

was made in the mode introduced by his Right Hon
Friend (Sir J. Graham) taken he was First Lord of
the Adiniralt,-. to which it was found convenient again
to have reeonise. The next and most important point
► wes that the number of men borne on the books should
be kept within the number voted by Parliament. To do
I that without any deviation was almost impossible. The
most at,entive Board of Admiralty could not always
bring the number of men within the vote. But so far as
the last year was concerned they had been able to carry
out that object, and with the exception of the first month
it would he found that the monthly returns of the num-
ber of men voted had been below the number voted. It
was for the purpose of attaining that end that the Com-
mittee recommended monthly returns, which it would, be found had been accordingly adopted. It was pro-
posed to make a reduction of 1,000 moan in the marine
force. But in speaking of the number of men to be
employed he must be permitted to observe flint that was
it subject in regard to which, to a certain degree, con-
fidence must be placed in the Governmeet. It was not
easy to give all the particular reasons why the Govern-
ment should fix upon any certain number of more That
must rest a great deal upon circumstances which it
;night not be convenient to state. But be could say, that
on the Ist of April, 1848, the number of men actually
bcrnc on the books was 46,000, whereas the number
voted for the present year was 35,000 men; but though
46,000 men were borne on the books in 1848, yet 43,000
men only were voted that year. Under present circum-
stances the Government bad carried the reduction as far
as theycould consistently with the efficiency of the service.
The Committee might wish to learn the distribution of
the men. There were in the East Indies, China, awl
New Zealand, 2,748; Cape of Good Hope, 793; Africa,
2,452; South-Eastern Americo, 993; Pacific, 2,618;
North America and West Indies, 1,877; Mediterranean,
7,959; Lisbon, 3,096; home ports (Ireland and Scotland),
5,130; packet service, 683; surveying service, 852;
troop-ships, particular service yachts, 762; ordered home.
or paying off, 1,310; and fitting out, 1,651. Intimately
connected with the distribution of the men was the,
number of ships in commission. From the Ist of
January, 1850, the total ships of the line in commis-
sion was 13; advanced an ordinary 58; build..
ing 15, of which three were ready to be launched.
There were frigates in commission 9; advanced an
in ordinary 58; building 8; and three of which
were ready to be launched. Vessels like frigates in
commission, 92; advanced and ordinary, 79; building.
4; of which there were ready to be launched, 1. Of
steam-vessels there were in commission 88; advanced
and in ordinary, 68; building, 11-and of which there
was one ready to be launched. So that there were
202 ships in commission ; 263 advanced and in
ordinary, and 38 building ; and 6 of these ships
were ready to be launched. Before quitting this
part of the subject he would state that it was the inten-
tion of the Government to reduce the number of officers
in the marine corps in proportion to the number of men
that were reduced. • A certain number of captains
would therefore retire. It had been thought advisable
to select for that purpose those officers who
were at the head of the list, and to allow them
to retire on full pay rather than take the young
captains and place them on half-pay, and to
be recalled afterwards on service. This would
add to the efficiency of the corps, and would be felt as
a fair portion of favour to the marine. With regard to
the victualling department, there would not only be a
reduction by reason of the number of men being reduced,
but also in consequence of the cheapness of provisions
enabling the Admiralty to enter into more favourable
contracts. There was one subject of deep interest to the
whole service, but which he was not yet prepared to
bring before the Committee-he meant the question of
grog. It had occupied the attention of the Admiralty for
some time; and the question had been laid before a com-
mittee of naval officers; and he hoped before long to
lay the result of their labours before the House, and to
be prepared with some proposal on the subject. The
next vote was that for the Admiralty-office in which
also there was a reduction. The Committee had realm.
mended that the number of those holding office in that
department should be fixed by order in Council, and that
no excess of salary should be taken without the sanction
of the Treasury. This plan had been adopted in effect,
though not exactly in words. The Admiralty had gone
back tee the old system of having the establishment set-
tled by order in Council. The Committee had observed
that a large quantity of extra work was done by the
clerks of the office, and they recommended that the
system should cease. That recommendation would be
acted upon; at the same time, it must be observed that
when so many returns were required to he made to
Parliament, it was not possible to get them ready with-
out the assistance of extra clerks. He could, however,
state, that during the last year ten clerks had been re-
duced at the Admiralty, at Whitehall, and at Somer.
set-house. Another arrangement had been made,
which was much in accordance with the opinion of the
Committee, and by which the whole steam de-
partment was placed under the control of the Surveyor
of the Navy. His early attention, had been turned to
this point, and an opportunity having offered of placing
the person who had hitherto superintended the steam de-
partment of the navy in another situation, he had placed
the whole of that department, together with the building
department, under the authority of the Surveyor of the
Navy. He was not quite sure that his Gallant Friend
would be able to perform all the duties connected with
that department without further assistance; mall, as his
Gallant Friend was so confident that he would be able to
do so, he (Sir F. Boring) had bowed to his opinion, and
had entirely abolished the controllership of the eteam
department. In the surveying and scientific department
a very considerable reduction had been effected, rartieu-
larly with regard to the construction of harbours. He
now came to the dockyard esta)lishrsents. The salaries
to officers and wages to workmen of the dockyards, both
at home and abroad, he should deal with under ono
head. Upon the estimate for that head of the present
3 ear, as compared with that of last year, there was a
reduction of 81,0001.; and, as compared with that
of 1848-9, 130,0001. The whole of the yards at
home had been examined and the expendi-
ture checked !.y the Lords of the Admiralty with the
assistance of Sir B. Walker, and by those means a con-
sidcraele reduction had been effected. Abroad the work
was not quite so pleasing, but the Admirals on the sta-
tions had been required, either themselves to go into
the different items of expenditure, or to appoint a com-
mittee ef officers for the purpose; and in that way each.
yard abroad had been examined and reported; and the
result had been souse small repletion. He would state
the number of workmen employed in the dockyards on
the Ist of April, 1848-9, as compared with the number
for the Ist of April, 1849-50. The reduction began on
the Ist of January, 1848, when there wore on the esta-
blishment 9,290. On the Ist of April the number had
increased to 9,519; on the Ist of April, 1849, it was
9,630, and on the Ist of April, 1850, it would be
9,621. In addition to that number there was an im-
mense number of hired workmen not on the establish-
ment. On the Ist of January, 1848, the total number
of those on the establishment and those who were not
was 12,218, on the Ist of April, 1848, 11,430; on tho Ist
of April, 1849, 10,142, and on the Ist of April, 1850,
the number estimated was 9,621; and there were slate
some temporarily employed as spinners for penis-
cuter dockyards, but that would terminate when that
particular work was over. The number so employe d
was 420, making for the Ist of April, 1850, 10,041, being
a reduction of 2,177. as compared with the number ein
the Ist of January, 1848. Again, on the Ist of Awl!,
1849, the number of men employed in the factories at
Woolwich and Portsmouth was 1,856. The number l )ro-
posed to be taken this year was 1,155, being a reduction
of 701. He did not mean to Fay that in future y ears
there might not be some further reductions under the
same head, but for the present he considered that !2,000
workmen being reduced since the Ist of January, 1848,
and 700 in the ficturies since the fat of April, 1849, was
as far as he could go with a due regard to the efficiency
of the service. The recommendation, indeed, of the
Committee had been, that these establishments should
be fixed by an order in Council. Since the estimates had
been framed the Government had been enabled to enter
into a contract fur the packet service between Kingstown
and Holyhead upon reasonable terms, part of which
was that the parties should hire the Government fac-
tories at Holyhead; and consequently, so far as the Go-
vernment was concerned, there was no danger to the
packet
establishment. Another recommendation
and strongly urged
by
yropostehdem by
was
se Committeeammitthtee justice of whiche
ho fully admitted was incontest Lisle. They recom-
mended that in the selection of officers for superinten-
dents of yards the Government should not think it ne-
cessary to confine themselves to the older officers of the
service, but should select those who were most fitted for
the duties. He was well aware that in adopting that
recommendation he had disappointed the expectations of
many gallant officers, but he had felt it his duty to carry
that recommendation into effect, knowing that there
was nothing upon which the efficiency of the department
and the expenditure so much depended as on the eye of
the superintendent of the yards, without which all regu-
lations would be useless. He now came to that part
which was one of the moat important votes-the store
vote. The Committee had made a recommendation
upon an extremely difficult part of that subject-the
supply of oak. The supply had been practically a
That pamrtny-
nopoly in the bands of a certain party.
Was dead, and fur the present yearc there had been
a contract with a new party.sTheareduction
in this vote bad been very considerable,
erbe. The
vote for this
wytewtahirthth that
was
oft last 718a'sb5tf year,
9 9i. 8
8 o o
f being
and
n 2d90a reduction,
,2178041.9, sad
aa
ss compared
compared
556,0- l The . principle upon which the Govern-
ment 2
proposed
lto act was to take the principal stores as
they stood in 1849, and, calculating on the average ex-
penditure which would be expended in the course of the
next year, to take the estimate for that which would re-
place the amount actually expended. Therefore,
although there was a groat reduction, they were not go-
ing to work on the old stores, but proposed to keep the
stores in a wholesome state and leave them as they found
them last year. As to manufactured articles, he was not
so fond of stores as with regard to timber and raw mate-
riel,. Li the pre tent slate of steam machinery it was
advisable nut to keep large stores of steam,engines.
Improvements were always going on, and he thought it
better now not to expend large sums in such stores.
With respect to new works, as compared with last year
there was a considerable reduction. The estimate for
18.18.9 was 626,0001. For the present year it was
324,000/., being a reduction of 300,000/. in consequence
of the works which had been carried on at Portsmouth,
and those which had been commenced at other places by
hislamented predecessor having been completed. At that
late hour it would not be necessary for him to go at any
length into the charges for the miscellaneous services
connected with the navy; but he might say, generally,
that in those portions of the estimates the recommen-
dations of the Committee had been in great part adopted.
As to the non-effective votes, the Committee had made
two recommendations, which the Board of Admiralty
were enabled to carry out-one of these was, that One
lieutenant should be promoted for every three vacancies,
she ether was the lhaitetioa the otunbfir of ostlets to