The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-03 00:00:00

by the Noble Marquis to the appointment of a Commit-
tee, because he believed that an inquiry of this nature
would be the only chance of arriving at an amicable and
satisfactory decision of the question.—(Hear, hear.)
This was a subject on which the greatest difference of
opinion existed throughout the country. It was true
that very many of the clergy and many schools had
availed themselves of this assistance. They knew that
the Government had a long purse, and of all the difficul-
ties that existed with respect to objects of a benevolent
character they knew that there was none greater than
the permanent maintenance of schools.—(Hear, hear.)
It was therefore natural that they should avail them-
selves of the assistance thus offered to them. But it did
not follow that the persons receiving those grants were
altogether satisfied with the arrangements under which
the advances were made. On every point of detail, ex-
cept the compulsory clauses, he thought the proceed•
ings of the Privy Council deserving of approbation.—
((lear, hear.) But on the simple ground of expediency,
he considered the compulsory imposition of the manage-
ment clauses upon Church schools the greatest error
that could have been committed.—(Hear, hear.) The
Government could have no wish but to work with the
great body of the Church and the clergy in the matter
of education. But the system on which the manage-
ment clauses was founded was a decided innovation.
The system, after a long and severe contest between
the Government and the heads of the Church. was set-
tled, and worked as well as possible fur seven or eight
years, and he believed every one of the additional im-
provements might have been grafted upon it without
the management clauses. The main difference between
the Committee of Privy Council and the Na-
tional Society was the question :of whether the ap-
peal should be allowed to schools receiving aid from
the Government on all matters from the local mana-
gers to the bishop of the diocese. He thought the
Government wrong in objecting to such provision when
the local managers wished for such appeal. But a point
of much more importance was, not whether there should
be an appeal on all points to the bishop, but whether
any system should be recognised which allowed and
proceeded on the distinction between what is religious
and what is secular. The common opinion was, that, in
matters of instruction, what is secular is the great body
of instruction, and that what is religious is the exception.
But that, he apprehended, was a great mistake. Except
in a few of the mere elementary branches of education,
there was scarcely one into which religion did not enter.
The Roman Catholics, in their controversy with the Go-
vernment, acceded to the proposal that the distinction
between what is religious and what is secular should be
allowed; but they stood on the point as to who should be
the arbitrator, and preserved that to their bishop.—
(Hear.) In that way the religious safety of the school
was perfectly attended to. What the committee of the Na-
tional Society first asked for was that the minister should
have the moral and religious superintendence of the
school. These were the points which required investi-
gation and called for improvement. The introduction
of the management clauses had shown the insecure and
unsatisfactory mode in which the funds were adminis-
tered. The system might have worked well, and did
work well, so long as the Church had confidence in the
intentions of Government ; but matters being in an un-
certain state, the system required to be carefully looked
into. He bad urged upon Government the necessity of
legislating on this point, and hoped nothing would be
done of consequence by the Privy Council until the pro-
posed proceeding was submitted to Parliament, in the
same manner as was done by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners. Another point which required consideration
was the system of the normal school of Knellor Hall,
which was regulated solely by the civil power. The Privy
Council had the sole management, and the Church did
not appear to be consulted in the arrangement. He
hoped their Lordships would give their approval to this
moderate measure, and consent to an inquiry, which
might afford the materials for the basis of some more
satisfactory arrangement. . .

The Earl of KINNAIRD thought their Lordships
ought to accept the proposition of Government, which
was to appoint a commission at the commencement of
next session. If the Committee was now agreed to, no-
thing definite could be arrived at, owing to the advanced
period of the session. If the Noble Earl did not consent
to the proposition of Government, he would thereby
show he was only the organ of one party—the National
Society. Their Lordships were asked to revert to the
old system, which had already been tried and found to
work unfavourably. He hoped, therefore, their Lord-
ships would not listen to any such proposition. With
respect to the claims preferred by the Bishops, it would be
found the Privy Council had already made great conces-
sions, so far as related to the discharge of schoolmasters or
schoolmistresses who might be proved to entertain or
inculcate objectionable tenets. It was advisable in
his opinion, to give the National Society power to
establish schools where needed, and he thought no dan-
ger was to be apprehended from that course, as it was
well known the high party in the Church had great con-
trol over the preceedings of the National Society. The
Noble Earl had dwelt on the danger of over-educating
the labourirsg classes; but in Scotland the poor were
generally well-educated through the parochial schools,
and no mischief was anticipated or felt from that prac-
tice. He would instance the case of two of his female
servants, to whom he g►ve access to a good library.
The works they chose fur their recreation were Milton's
" Paradise Lost," and " Ilarmion."—(Hear, and
laughter.) If the request of the National Society was
granted they would have to grant the requests of other
parties—dissenting societies, for instance. The numbers
of churchmen and dissenters in England he found to be
—taking the population at 13.000,000—dissenters,
8,400,000—(0b, and laughter)—churchmen the re-
mainder. He considered that, under the circumstances,
and for the reasons alleged by the Noble Marquis, he
was bound to give his opposition to the motion.
Toe Bishop of SALISBURY said no one had endea-
voured to promote a harmonious co-operation between
Church and State i❑ educational matters more zealously
than hiaise:f. Ten years ago, when an interruption of
that harmony occurred, he had attempted to mediate be-
tween the Noble Marquis and other Noble Lords and
the Right Rev. Prelates by proposing terms of conci-
liation and concession, which had resulted in a compro-
mise, He did not mean to approve of the extent ,to
which the present Act had been carried out; bat he
thought it would be advisable to enter upon an inquiry
into the whole subject in a calm and conciliatory spirit.
He could not but look upon the system of education as
carried out by the National Society with public money,
in connexion with the •arious religious bodies, as a
great experiment. He admitted that some parts of the
system were worthy of approval, but at the
same time, he thought the system called for inquiry,
and was susceptible of great improvement. The expe-
riment with respect to the training schools particularly
required to be watched with great care, and though he
gladly admitted that much good had arisen, still he
could not help stating that a growing dissatisfaction was
manifesting itself in many quarters. To 'this point and
to other points the attention of the Committee might be
directed with benefit. A large body of persons had
been educated for these schools, aad the question arose
whether education had not been pushed too fir in this
direction. Then he believed that the instruction which
had been given in some instances had not been of that
sort, or so useful (we understood) as could be wished.
He should look to this inquiry for the removal of much
unfounded apprehension and alarm, and for giving secu-
rity against the introduction of any changes without
affording an opportunity to the Church and Parliament
of expressing their opinion, and the result would be, the
attainment of that object which the Noble Marquis, no
less than himself, had in view—namely, the sound edu-
cation of tho people, by giving assistance to voluntary
efforts. On these grounds he would support the motion.
The Earl of, CHICHESTER said there was a time
when he would have been disposed to press such an in-
quiry more earnestly than now, and that was when the
Committee of the Privy Council might have established
a system of education without the knowledge or consent
of Parliament. His only objection to the motion of his
Noble Friend was, that at the present period of the
session it would be suite impossible for such an inquiry
to lead to any satisfactory result. He doubted if his
Noble Friend was fully aware of the immense mass of
evidence which it would be necessary to bring before the
Committee. With reference to the question of arbitra-
tion, he thought it might lead to inconvenience if all
disputes ware referred to the bishop; and he also felt
that it would be very unsatisfactory to have two systems
of arbitration. But there was another point to which
he would shortly advert. The members of the Church
objected that any man should found schools and have
the power of dictating to future generations in what
way they should be managed, and to claim of grant of
public money to assist him in carrying out any scheme
which his whim might suggest. It was, therefore,
necessary that the Government should exercise some
control over the conveyances of property destined for
such purposes. He hoped this laxity and freedom of
choice would be resisted.

The Bishop of OXFORD said the deep interest which
he took in the subject under discussion must be his apo-
logy for addressing a very few words to their Lordships.
In the first place, he must express His gratification at the
tine in which the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) had answered the speech of the Noble Lord op-
posite (the Earl of Harrowby), a tone which had been
preserved throughout the debate, with, perhaps, a sin-
gle exception. That exception he could not but regret,
feeling that this was a national question, and should be
free from all party views.—(Hear, hear.) But there
dealtwas onewit
hg. r o
Theu nd
co
hreh
hadobjection h •
ew hai ch had
charged
withn t yet
a been
dread
of perfecting education. But this was not the feet. God
forbid! He, and those who even went beyond him in
blaming the system, desired to see the education of the
people made pure and perfect. The Noble Marquis had
alluded to the jealousy of the National Society and those
who acted with it of the proceedings of the Government,
and their wish to keep the laity of the Church of Eng-
land out of the management of schools, which they
wished to confine to clergymen. He could assure the
e
oteaNhefn
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cb
hl
neot
suspicioneoM ri
sf rightae rb r gee t
iunenc,4
i oske thate
gi
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ahe
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ethleailtyai,tyb.o t But
of.
t hth
sonable ground of Suspicion nevertheless. They feared
didnotsharetothef full in all these suspicions,eey had t
e St
a
in an exaggerate way, ehad put
a.d r He
hea
e
had faced main who,-
forward these suspicion's, and engaged in argument on
the other side. But he must take leave to say he thought
there were groi Inds of suspicion. First of all, this move-
ment began with the position of establishing normal
bchools which .should exclude all religious teaching, and
it became nec assary to watch that. They were not
going back to that which was the originally avowed in-
tention. With reference to the arbitration, he oould not
understand the justice of prohibiting all reference to the
bishop of the diocese, even where the founder desired
such an appeal to b 3 made, nor could he see why that
which was graT iced to a Socinian or a Roman. Catholic
should be ,ed to members of the Church of England.
Great objectie ns were made against allowing the exercise
of any disci of ion on the part of those by whom these cha-
rities were fctiaucled; but by adoptiag :ugh a priwipla