The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-24 00:00:00

THE SUN,

template 1 by that part of the Bill. The third
object of the Bill was the establishment of county and
district industrial schools in respect to juvenile of-
fender?. It however was of a different character; it
proposed that two justices should have power to adju-
dicate in cases where parents instigated their children to
the committal of crime, so that a man who urged his
child to commit a murder would be liable to a trumpery
fine, while the child would be tried for the
capital offence, (Hear, hear.) The fact was
the Hon. Gentleman who bad introduced the measure
had mistaken the criminal responsibility of the parent
for a pecuniary liability. These formed two distinct
questions of a very different character, and this circum-
stance only showed the inoperative nature of the
Bill. The remaining clauses were equally objectionable,
Many of them were really extraordinary, if not dan-
gerous, while some were laughably ridiculous. No ma-
gistrate indeed could venture to put any of them in
force. One of them came directly in contact with the
Mutiny Act, and in not a few recpocts the provisions
of the Bill would inflict great hardships
on the juvenile offenders rather than benefit him or im-
prove his condition. With regard to the third object
of the Bill, which related to the establishment of in-
dustrial schools, ho did not object to the principle
of this part of the treasure in the abstract,
but then the question was, would the Bill as it
stood, lead to the realization of that principle. He was
aft aid not, rhile if the principle were good, as no doubt
it was, why confine the industrial schools to counties?
Why should taey not be extended to towns?—(tiear,
hear.) This point of the sutject, however,
was net cf so pre: sing a nature as to justify the passing
of this Bill, and though he agreed with the wel'-
merited eulogiume which the Honourable Gentleman
had passed upon the exertions of the Phi-
lanthropic Society, whose efforts were ever di-
rected to the reclamation of youthful offender?, he did
not thick the Bill would tend to reduce the evil it was
proposed to meet, if it were held out to the world that al
juvenile offenders would be provided for, and he must
therefore resist the :motion fir its second reading.—
(Hear.) No later than yesterday he received a commu-
nication from the secretary to the Philanthropic Society,
enclosing him a translated report to the French Republic
on this very subject, and he felt bound to state that its
conclusions were quite oposito to those he had just
urged upon the attention of the House. With regard
to the question of pecuniary responsibility on
the part of the parent, he at once admitted that the
principle was an admirable one • but here again the
provisions of this Bill were highly objectionable, and
most inoperative. To a certain extent this very prin•
cinciple was already in force, but the Bill proposed that
it should be extended to every case—an absolute
impossibility. In a word, the whole ma-
chinery of the Bill was impracticable, and
however laudable its object might be, or however admi-
call: its principle was, in many respects, he must give it
his decided opposition.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE STRICKLAND rose to move that the
Bill be read a second time tt at day six months ; but it
was not his intention to make a speech in support of the
amendment, as the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just
sat dawn had anticipated every objection he could
urge against the measure. In fast the Right Ilon.
Bart. had taken his speech out of his lips— (fletr and a
laugh)—end be should therefore content hl se f with
imitating out one or two defacte in the measure which had
most forcibly struck hire. From beginning to eed
the Bill had been drawn up in a most careless
manner. Its preamble stated that great evils resulted
from the continual imprisonment of juvenile offenders,
and yet one of the clauses distinctly provided that an
offender after so many convictions should be li4blo to
be imprisoned in what was celled an industrial school
for seven years.

Mr. M. 511LNES said the Hon. Baronet was in
error, and was proceeding to explain when ho was call,.d
to order.

Sir G. STRICKLAND then proceeded to say that
the Bill was full of imagir a:ion, and as a z atural cense-
quLnee, full of inconsistenetes.—(A laugh.) It aimed
another blow at the palladium of British libLrty—trialby
jury, and he was therefore surprised t) find on the back
the name of an Hon. and Learned Gentleman, who
must have bad ample opportunities, in his own
time, of witressing the a !vantages which resulted
to the country from the existence of this institution.
He would venture to say that the present Bill was one
of the most ludicrous pircei of legislation thlzt
was ever brought before the House, for by
its provisions any party might be tried,
not More a magistrate, but in his servants' hall, before
all his drunken servants--(Hear, bear)—for the Bill
gave power to the magistrate to depute any one to
try parties charged with criminal offenc”.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member concludtd by moving that the Bill be
read a second time that day six months.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD seconded the amendment.

Mr. SIMEON supported the second reading of the
lie thought the course that had been adopted
by the Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir G. Strickland)
most inconsistent and totally uncalled for, if the mea-
sure introduced by his Honourable Friend the Mem-
b r fa. Pontefract was only rigltly considered.
The principle cf the was one which would meet with
the approlmtion of evrry msn who had given a due degree
of attention to this important subject. The Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Milnes) had showed beyond doubt that
the pi eient state of the law with regard to this class of
afenders was bad and mischievous in the highest degree.
He (Mr. Simson) concurred in that opinion. Our ilea.-
ment of this unfortunate data of the population was
well described by one of our poets, who said—
" Their infant minds, their infant years,
Owed nothing to our care;
Their minds neglected and their bodies t are."
The Honourable Member went on to draw a contrast
between the French prison of Mt Way and our prison
at Parkhurst, unfavoura'Ae to the latter. The prisoners
who went to Mettray went not to a prison, but to an
agricultural colony; but the cffender who went to Park-
harst went directly to a p:ison. The fact of a boy hav-
ing been at Mettray was an inducement for his fellow-
men t') resreac him in after life; and it was no uncom-
mon thing in France for persons who had been trained
at that colony to have placed over their shop signs the
words " Educated at Mettray."
Mr. HEADLAM would give his cordial assent to the
broad principle involved in the Bill before the House,
though be would not pledge himself to vote for alt its
details. One of tie most important parts of the Bill
was that which gave power to the magistrates t) make
the latish or the parents liable fcr the mainterapce of
the juvenile offenders while in the proposed reformatory
asylums. He held in his hand the report which was made
by several of the greatest men in France to the National
Ascembly, in which they recommended the Legislature
to establish industrial schoola, on the ground that, after
ten years' experience, they had been, fully successful.
Being of opinion that the present Bill would accomplish
a great amount cf good, he should give it his decided
support.

air J. PAKINGTON gave the Hon. Member who
introduced the Bill credit for his benevolent and praise-
worthy intentions, but he could not agree with him in
the mode by which he proposed to carry those intentions
into effect. The Bill would not only offer a premium on
vice and dishonesty, but would saddle a large expense
on the county rates; and he should therefore feel it his
duty to vote f.ir the amendment.
Colonel THOMPSON said he had looked over the
report which was made by a Committee of the Na-
tional Assembly of France, and he could not find
in is the mention of anything which at all approached
to corporl punishment.—(lltar.) He was sorry when
this species of punishment was losing its influence in
the army that any one should propose its introduction
into civil affairs. He believed that Napoleon would no
more have thought of submitting a young French cfiicer
to corporal punishment than he would have considered
him fitted for service in a seraglio.—(Lsughter.) He
remembered a captain cf her Majesty's guards telling
him many years ago that he considered Vat Tyler the
first of English reformers, though to be sure he
was of a very rough sort.—(Loud laughter.)
The rasantry of this country were a very sensitive
class, stud if this species of punisbinent was to be put
again into practice, he thought there would be an end of
that wholesome compact which existed between the Pea-
santry and the aristocracy.
Mr. TRELAWNY called upon: the House to give
their serious attention to this important measure, which
it was his intention to rapport. He, however, begged it
to
be
and
dtinncutt the lyunddeetrasir
ofd that tßhilel. supported the prin-
ciple After a few words from Mr. RICE,
Mr. M. MILNES, amidst considerable impatience and
some confusion, essayed to reply, but the House seemedtn
indisposed to hear him further, and he at length put .
end to the noisy scene by stating that it was his inten-
tion to withdraw the Bill, an announcement that was
received with lend cheers.
The motion for the second reading was then nega!ived
without a division, and the amendment agreed t^.

VESTRIES AND VESTRY-CLERKS' BILL.
This Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on the 22d of May.
AFFIRMATION BILL.
Mr. PAGE WOOD, after presentirg a large number
of petitions in favour of this Bill, proceeded to more
its committal, observing that its principle had been twice
affirmed by the House. The House perhaps vas not
aware of it, but it was nevertheless a fact, that not only
were Quakers, Moravians, and Separatists, relieved from
taking an oath in courts of law, but any one who had
ever belonged to these bodies also enjoyed the same
privilege; and he could see no reason why the same con-
Cession should not be extended to all parties who enter-
tained conscientious objections to the taking of an oath.
Ile rested the second reading of the Bill on two
grounds—first, the right that the F üblic had, in all case s,
to have tie beat evidence that could be procured, and, se-
condly, on the extensive persecution that had prevailed
against those who conscientiously refused to take an
oath. The Hon. and Learned Member at some length
referred to caee3 that had occurred, showing the evils
and grievances that had taken place from not allowing
parties to give evidence who would not take an oath.
The parties having a scruple about
taking oath were
liable to be committed to prisonin the event of their
refusing to do so in
courts of justice; and they could
not sit on juries or hold most of the civil offices of the
State without doing violence to their consciences. The
presei t Bill relieved only the conscientious, and
a man had only rasedto say that he was a Moravian or
a Qur.lier, and objected to take an oath, whenever he
might he called on to do so, and he would be relieied
from the obligation, and the judge would allow him in
such cases to substitute an athrrnation. He knew of
a case in Honduras where a Di.thenting minister had
been confined for a period of six weeks for
refusing to the an oath, and other per-sans in than
colony were fined very considerable sums of money
for the lame offence. Taking all those circumstances
into consideration, he hoped the House would not object
to thie Bill going into Conawiit..e.
Mr. GOULI3UhiN opposed the motion that the
House should go into Committee on this Bill. He main-

LONDON,

tained that a man engaging to speak the truth under the
solemnity of an oath, and knowing that he would be
punished here and hereafter in the event cf his perjuring
himself, was more likely to give true evidence,
in courts of justice, than a man who merely
made an affirmation or a declaration. The Honour-
able and Darned Gentleman proposed to leave it
to the option of the judge to decide whether a witness
should be sworn or not, but such a practice would be at,
tended with the greatest difficulties, and he thought
would not further the ends of justice.—(Hear, hear.)
The great majority of magistrates engaged in
the administration of justice thought the taking of
oaths was essential to the ascertaining of the truth, and
that they would not be able to obtain from witnesses
that precise state of facts which they would give under
the imposition of an oath. The general tendency was
not to adhere strictly to the facts when a person had
simply to give a conversational account of anything which
had taken place. He concluded by moving that the Bill
be committed this day six month'.
Mr. COCKBURN had made up his mind to support
this Bill, though he believed the oath was one of the
safeguards to the due administration of justice;
but he supported the Bill, because he felt
that many persons were precluded from giving evidence
by the law as it now stood. Many persons professing
particu'ar fsiths were already relieved from this obliga-
tion of taking an oath, and he put it to the Right
Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down
whether it would bo right to withstand
that concession. Well, then, if these persons were enti-
tled to this privilege because they entertained conscien-
tious convictions against the taking of an outh, why
should not the man, although he belonged to an-
other wet, who considered it opposed to his religious
duty to take an oath, bet placed upon a similar footing?
It was nonsense to tell him that a man might escape
justice by putting evidence on cath against evidence given
on affirmation, because the same argument told as much
against the existing system as against the proposed change.
But while he approved of this Bill, he thought it ought
to be accomianied with a provision which should make
it the duty cf a judge to satisfy himself that
the party wishing to give his . evidence by
way of affirmation really did enter'ain conscientious
objections to the taking of an oath before he consented to
absolve him from that obligation.—(Hear.)
Mr. NEWDEGATE supported the amendment, and
declared it lo be his conviction that; if this Bill passed,
in many instances justice would be defeated by parties
who were now restrained from giving fa!se evi-
dence by the sane ity of an oath. It was too
ba-I that at the bidding of a nondescript section
of fsociety to pass a law which could remove no diffi-
culty, but would have the effect of encouraging perjury.
Sir EDWARD BUXTON would be glad to know
from the Hou. Gentleman who had just eat down if he
knew of any instance where evidence which hhal been
given upon affirmation had afterwards turned out to be
false? It was a singular fist that no such cases could
be found; and as justice was o't n frustrated by the
operation cf the existing law, le was at a loss to undt r-
stand why its ra form should be objected to:
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee ... 129
Fur the amendment 14$
Majority ... —l9
The anneuncemtnt was received with loud cheers.
The Bill was consequently thrown out.
SMALL TENEMENTS RATING BILL.

The amendments .to this Bill were considered and
agreed to, titer a short discussion.
Colonel BOYLE protected a petition from Frome
against Church rates.
COLLECTION OF FEES BY STAMPS (COURT
OF CHANCERY).
The House wert into Committee, and a resolution for
founding a Bill for the collection of fees by stamp (Court
of Chancery) was agreed to.
NEW WRIT.

On the motion of an Hon MEMBER a new writ was
ordered to issue for Lymington, in the room of the Hon.
G. T. Keppel, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Six o'clock.

KIDDERMINSTER ELECTION
COMMITTEE.—(THIS DAY.)
The Committee appointed to try de merits of the peti-
tion presented against the return of Mr. Best, for the
borough t f Kidderminster, re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning; Mr. Bouverie in tile astir.
Mr. Sergeant KINGLAHE intimated at the silting of
the Committee, that the case for the petitioners closed
with yesterday's evidence.
Mr. JAMES, Q.C., on the same side, summed up the
evidence at some length, insisting that it sustained the
allegation of the petitioners, that the election of Mr.
Best was carried by bribery and treating.
Mr. ALEXANDER afterwards addressed the Committee
at equal length on behalf of the sitting Member, an-
nouncing that it was not his intention to call rebutting
evidence, as he did not think the petitioners hrd esta-
blished any case against his client.
The Committee, under these circumstances, intimated
that they should adjourn till tc-morrow at two o'clock,
when they would be prepared to give their decision.

THE NATIONAL REFORM CON -
FEREN CE.— (THIS DAY.)
The cmierence met thi* morning at ten o'clock; Sir
Joshua Walmsley, Esq., M.P., in the chair.
The CHAIRMAN said the first business of the day
would be to receive report, and suggestions from the
provincial delegates presect ; and he should first call
upon

Mr. Picas, of Leicester, who said that the
p.,litical tune of Leicester was, he was glad to
say, perfectly healtt y.—(Flear, hear.) They., had
there a National Reform Association, a ith its officers
aed working machinery, and he did not doubt but that,
let an election come when it would, they would return
two Radicals to I'ssriiament, as they ever had done.—
(Cheers.) The principle which recommended the asso-
ciation to the men of Leicester was, that it laid down tl- at
all men were equal in the sight of the law. This
was a prirciple which lay at the root of all progress,
whether they looked tt the rapid spread of the Christian
religion, or to the social progress of the new world, as
exemplified in California most particularly. In all the
other objects of the association, whether of political or
financial reform, the men of Leicester perfectly con-
curred, and would support with all their energies.
Mr. ADAMS, of Derby, next addressed the conference.
At Derby the committee was formed for working pur-
poses, and contained men of every shade of liberal
opinion. In their neighbourhood they had farmed a
National Land Association, and although circumstances
had not yet beet very favourable, yet 400 shares had
been taken up already. He also wished to say that tho
Chartists of Derby, though they had not abandoned their
claim for universal suffrage, had given their support
most unhesitatingly to the National Reform Associa-
tion.—(Cheers.)
Mr. M`Cinerer, of Dublin, said he was present at this
conference to assure it of the support of the body of
men with whom ho acn' in political mat-
ters. fie hoped that the Reformers of Eng-
land and Ireland would no longer be kept
separete as they had been by the devices of their rulers,
and he could assure the Conference that on better ac-
quaintauce they would fled that the Reformers of Ireland
would ant with all their energy in support of this great
national movement.
Mr. EVAN Joins, of Merthyr, South Wales, next
presented himself, to make known to the con-
ference the sentiments of the great manufacturing
districts of Wales. They were warmly attached to this
movement because they looked upon it as the canstitu-
tionel precursor of further political and constitiemal
reforms. Tne fiat had gone forth against all political
and ecclesiastical despotism, and it was impossible for
Lord John Russell, with his present House of shams and
hypocrisy, to attempt to arrest it. The town of Merthyr
was under tho dominion c f four princely iron-
masters, who moved it as they chose; but he hoped
that the present movement would in its course emanci-
pate them as well as others from that aristocratic
thraldom.
After Mr. Lewis and Mr. Harrison, delegates from
Stroud, and Mr. Whitewell, of Peterborough, had ad-
dressed the meeting,
Mr. THWAITES, of London, thought that the great
object of this conference was not to indulge in remarks
upon political qu, stions, but to give practical sugges-
tions for the operations c f the association. The
great and first object was to increase the number of
electors, and he thought by attention to the means which
every district. had in its power, by carefully superintend-
ing the registry, and selecting carefully the overseers in
every parish, that object might, to a great extent, be
secured. If he might be allowed to say so, he thought the
constitution of the present association was too aristo-
cratic—there was not a sufficient leaven of working men
in the council. He thought that if there were a confer.
once of two years of all the members of the association
when the council were re-elected, then new blood
would be infused into it.
Mr. CHARLES GILPIN wished to explain that there
were on the council many men who were elected, and
who had no other qualification than the payment of ono
shilling per annum.
After a few words from Mr. THWAITES,
Mr. CoBDEN, M.P., then rose, amidst loud and re-
peated cheering, to address the conference. He pre-
sumed that the reason why the gentlemen whom
ho saw before him had eotre up to London
was, that they were dissatisfied with the doings
of the House of Commons, and he should
be a great hypocrite if he did not agree with them.
Ho presumed they thought that by an extension of the
Parliamentary representation they would secure a better
House of Commons than the one they now had, and
that not only he, but every Englishman who professed
to be a lover of his country, would bo a hypocrite if he
did not agree with them in that. .Again, he would
presume alit as they called themselves a
Financial Reform Association they considered that
an ex tended suffrage would ensure a more economic& Ad-
ministration. The House of Commons well deserved any
suspicion and mistrust with which the people regarded it,
for he must say that the House of Commons was much
more extravagant than the ministry itself, and it was
upon this House that they would have to work, in this
part of their operations. Well, then, how was this to be
done ? What were the means to be employed ?
It could only be done by long aed arduous work. No
better maxim could be found than Sir R. Pe e,',l cry
which he raised for his own party—register, register.
The whole political power in this country sprang from
registration; that was a subject to which they must peY
the greatest attention—the only political, moral, and
constitutional means by w hich they could effect
any object in this country was by attention
to the register. Every man when he got home must at-
tend most earnestly and zealously to this subject,must
form ass. Ciatlol33 fur this purpcse. If they did this,
they would gain a great influence in Parliament. This
was an object which could not be c fleeted by central
efforts—local Efforts were the great means to