The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-06 00:00:00

THE SUN,

object to a bonlifide joint occupancy, but the clause as it
stood would lead to the creation of faggot votes. He
obj-cted to a person who he'd premises rated at say 241.
having the power of putting in the names of two other
persons as voters under that holding, though they might
have no real interest in it.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to
say that he had no objection to any amendment of the
clause, such as that suggested by the Noble Lord.
Oa clause 9.
Lord STANLEY said that in several of the boroughs
of Ireland there was a class of Si. householders, whose
rights of voting were preserved by the Reform Bill. He
wished to propose the insertion of the words:—"or 51.
householders qualified to vote;" and to strike out the
words relating to persons qualified to vote in respect of
habitancy.
After a few words from the Earl of CARLISLE,
The clause, as so amended, was understeod to be
agreed to.
On clause 15,
Lord S I'ANLEY said they had now come to a clause
on which he proposed to raise a question of coneidertable
importance, as to whether there should be an option on
the part of the voter as to whether or not his name
should be placed on the register. It was proposed in the
Bill that the clerk of the peace should in the first instance
send to the clerk of each union a list of the existing re-
gistry, excluding from it persons entitled to vote from
occupation, whose names might be struck off by the clerk
of the peace. It was proposed by the Bill that the
transmission of the list by the clerk of the union should
have the effect of placing the names of those voters on
the registry who had paid their rates, whether they were
inclined to become voters or not. He wished to propose
an amendment to alter the mode of proceeding so far as
that the clerk of the peace should prepare the list of
the existing register, and should transmit so much of
that register as related to the respective baronies to the
clerk of the union; but instead of excluding all those
persons whose franchise depended on occupancy, he
should transmit a separate list of all such persons, who,
if not rated to a certain amount, shall be struck off the
list. The clerk of the union should then return to the
clerk of the peace the list of persons on the registry by
virtue of ocotipancy:with the words "objected to" before
those persons not properly rated. The clerk of the union
should not be called on to introduce into the register any
new name whatever; but all persons not on the register,
or all persona objected to by the clerk of the union,
would be at liberty to make separate claims. Those
persons would make their claims according to the prac-
tice observed in this country, and, if unobjected te, their
claims would be allowed. According to his proposal,
the duties of the clerk of the union would be limited to
objecting to persons whom he might find on the register
without having paid their rates, but he would have no
power of placing new names on the register. The
Noble Marquis had expressed the other night his
opinion that great indignation would bo excited in
Ireland by the - weather of persons who would be
without a vote in consequence of the 151. rating being
adopted. He wished to ascertain the value which
the people of Ireland placed on the exercise of the
franchise. Were they anxious to obtain the franchise?
He had no wish to give the voter the trouble of attending
to defend his vote. He should leave the onus probandi
on the person who objected to it. All that he required
was, that previous to having his name placed on the re-
gister, he should express a desire to have his name
placed on it. If the people of Ireland were so indifferent
to the franchise as to refuse to sign an application for it,
not only would there be no injustice in not placing their
names on the register, but there would be great injustice
in forcing them to register.—(Hear, hear.) Everybody
was aware of the influences which might be brought to
bear in Ireland en the voter with respect to his fran-
chise. If a man's name was on the register he would be
pressed upon by the priests or the landlords, and between
the two he would be placed in the most painful circum-
stances. He admitted that in the exercise of the fran-
chise every voter ought to act conscientiously; but to say
that it was a solemn trust, and that a man entitled to the
qualification was bound to claim it, and to insist on the
right of voting, was as absurd as it would be to say that
it was incumbent on every one of their Lordships to at-
tend from the commencement of the session to the end
without exercising any option.
A Noble Loin—And the appeals in the morning.—
(Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY—Yes, that he must attend the ap-
peals in the morning, and never abstain from voting on
any question.—(Hear.) The question for their Lord-
ships to consider was this—would they compel a man to
be a voter or not ?—(Hear, hear.) By compelling him
to become a voter they would, theoretically, perform an
act of injustice ; but practically they would be sowing
the seeds for constant ill will and constant conflicts be-
tween the landlord, the tenant, and the priest.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was of infi-
nite importance that that class of persons who, from
their possession of land or other property, were
considered entitled to vote fur Members of Par-
liament, should, without any effort or exertion on
their part, be placed in a position to vote. He believed the
adoption of the suggestion of the Noble Lord would lead
t i a considerable restriction of the franchise. The
Noble Lord had spoken of the position of Members of
their Lordships' House. Now, he wished to remind the
Noble Lord that this Bill would not compel a person to
vote, and that it would place him in a similar position to
that of a Peer or a Member of the House of Commons.
The elector exercised the right of voting, not fir his
own good but for the general good of the community.
It was a trust conferred upon him, and the right could
not be jutifi-d on any other principle. It was fre-
quently the case that those persons who were the best
qualified to exercise the trust were the least desirous
petually endeavouring to acquire an interest in the
representation, and their proceedings often tended to
bring the representation into the worst possible state.
He believed the effect of the amendment would be to
increase the influence exercised by particular indivi-
duals in particular constituencies, and in some parts of
England and Scotland, where the register bad not
been attended to, the remedy had been taken into the
hands of the managers of different parties, depending
upon local int3rests; and when by any accident that
local interest ceased to operate, the effect was that the
registry dropped altogether, or was confined to a very small
number of persons; and he knew one case in which it
was limited to between ten and twenty per cent. He
trusted their Lordships would not agree to the amend-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM said that what applied to Eng-
land did not apply to Ireland, the state of the two coun-
tries being so widely different. In this country, scarcely
any one entitled to register abstained from obtaining the
right, but in Ireland it was perfectly the reverse. The
question then arose, whether there were not reasons which
induced persons to abstain from registering. Now, if a
man was deserving of being ietrasted with the discretion
of electing legislators, surely he was entitled to exercise
the minor discretion of saying whether ho chose to vote
or not.—(Hear.) But the matter did not rest there, for
if the Legislature once compelled him to have the right to
vote, why not compel him to exercise that right ?
(Hear, hear.) It was said this was a duty. But was
Out a man compellable to do his duty?—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Marquis said that those whom he wished to
possess the elective franchise were just these who now
abstained from it, and not jobbers, of whom, he was
sorry to say, a good deal was known in Ireland, some-
thing in Scotland, and not a little in this country. Now,
was it not very hard that a parson not wishing to job
should not be allowed to live quietly and peaceably
under the shelter of his own roof, but be compelled to
become a politician?—(Hear, hear.) It was very desi-
rable no doubt that such persons should vote, and he
would do everything to tempt them, but would not com-
pel them, when they had good reasons of their own for
keeping in the back ground.—(Hear, hear.) But if that
part of the argument of the Noble Marquis was good fur
tnything, why not carry it further, and compel the
freeholder to register as well as the tenant? He looked
on the measure as neither more nor less than making the
legislature ancillary to the power of the priest.—(Hear.)
Earl GREY said he had never heard a speech so en-
tirely founded on a misunderstanding. The Noble and
Learned Lord seemed to think that the Bill would com-
pel a man to vote, but there was no compulsion in the
case.—(Hear, hear.) Now what was the state of the

THE PARKS.

case? In 1832 the system w,ts altered, and registeration
became necessary. When the Reform Bill was intro-
duced, it wag meant to have a registration requiring no
personal interference on the part of the voter. And why
was that altered?
.A deputation from Manchester

waited upon Lord Althorp and said, "You require us to
send in a list of freeholders; we have no means of

knowing them." Now that was a complete answer to
the latter part of the speech of the Noble and Learned
Lord, and it was on account of the impossibility of the
parties called upon to make out the lists being able to
distinguish between a freeholder, a copyholder, or a
leaseholder, that a personal claim was made neces-
sary for the purposes of registration. But in
boroughs that was nut the ease, the overseers being re-
quired to make out the lists from the rate books. By the
Registration Act of 1844
placed on the register Without
part. It was said that the voter any application on his
might desire to escape
from the necessity of voting;
his
exercise of the franchise was a dusty answer was, that the
ht to which
ought to shrink, and that it was nrootodteel should be
desirable that a
thoseen
voter
which no man
a
necessary to enable him to exercise the
question then lu r
he was antitled.—(Hear, hear.) T
whether the same principle did not extend t
titled to the elective franchise. It was a great mistake
on the part of the Noble and Learned Lord, arising
no
doubt from his not having sat in the other House sinceo
the registration system was adopted, to suppose that
there was a aeneral disposition on the part of the voters
to put in claims; every one who had aught to do with
contested elections knew that nothing was more difficult
than to get voters to make their claims; and hence had
arisen the machinery:of registration societies on both sides
of politics, in every borough and county in the king-
dom. In the counties, if committees were not formed,
.and great activity displayed, a large proportion of
qualified persons were always omitted from the re-
elster; and it was to remedy this that recourse had
been had to the registration societies, by which a con-
tinual agitation was kept up from year to year. The
effect of the clause under discussion would be to secure
the registration of all qualified persons, instead of par-
tisans only. It was impossible to deny that electors in
Ireland were much exposed to undue pressure on one
side or the other—from the landlord or the priest; but
he only remedy for this tyranny was largely to increase
the number of electors—(Hear, hear.) A body of 20 or
30 might easily be marked out and coerced, or punished
if they refused to be so; but where the voters numbered
hundreds, this would be impossible--(Hear, hear.) The
dense sought only to carry out the principle of the Re-
'orm Bill, which was also the old principle of the English
.onstitution—that every qualified person should have a
vote without the necessity of making a claim, and he
was convinced that this was the only sound footing on ,
which the county franchise is Ireland would be Awed,

LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JULY 6, 1850.

rates, and income-tax, and of the unjust operation of the
malt-tax, and preying the House to grant them relief.—
(Hear, hear, from the Protectionist benches.)
An HoN. MEMBER presented a p tition from West-
bourne, iu Sussex, against the admission of Jews to Par-
liament.

Sir W. JOLLIFFE presented a petition from a place
in Sussex praying for the repeal of the malt and hop
duties.

WOODS AND FORESTS.-REVENUE FROU

Lord DUNCAN gave notice that on Tuesday next he
should move a resolution that, as it appesred
that during the period of the last seven years,
from 1842 to 1849, a gross income of 2,446,0001.
had been derived from the public parks, and that
out of this 774,000/ had been paid into
the Exchequer, and 1,800,0001. withheld for manag-
ing this department, it Is expedient to place this branch
of expenditure more directly under the control of Par-
liament, and that the sums necessary for their manage-
ment should be voted with the rest of the estimates.
PARTY PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND.

The LORI) MAYOR of DUBLIN wished to ask the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether
he had received any infirrnation that the Orangemen of
the county of Down were in the habit of paraiing• bv
night, playing party tunes, such as the " Boyne Water".
and "Crappies l'e down?''
—(Laughter.) There was some
fear in those districts of a repetition of the Dolly's
Br4e affair on the 12th of July.
Sir G. GREY said that he had received no such in-
formation, neither had his Right Hon. Friend the Secre-
tary for Ireland received any on the subject. As t > any
expected disturbances, the Lord-Lieutenant would no
doubt exercise the powers placed in his hands to prevent
any repetition of the disturbance.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

On the motion that the House at its rising adjourn
until Monday,
Sir G. GREY said that he wished to correct a mistake
into which he had fallen last night, in speaking of Mr.
Denison having signed an address which he had re-
ceived. Upon looking again at the petition, he found
that that gentleman's name was not attached to the
address.