The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-22 00:00:00

manner, he was .quite_sure the gentleman would not hay e
kept his seat. Ho believed there were ladies there who
were not entitled to that place under the orders of their
Lordships' House, and he was not sure that the Noble
and Learned Lord was not also aware of that circum-
stance.—(hear, hear, and laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM declared that he was perfectly
unaware cf. it. He took up two ladies—a peeress and
a peer's daughter, who is married. He only asked a
place for a near relative of a noble viscount (a vis-
countess), whose place was undeniably fixed by order of
the House, and who was naturally anxious to hear what
would be said respecting her noble relative. Another,
still nearer, was obliged to get a scat in the box below
the bar.—(Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY under'stood that a
letter had been written to the Noble Lord the Secretary
for Foreign Affairs, by the Chevalier Bunsen, on this
particular question, and he wished to know whether the
Noble Marquis would lay that letter on the table in
order that the Committee might be in fall possessio❑ Of
the statement% on both sides.

Lord BROUGHAM could not imagine anything more
absuro.—(Llugliter.) Ile, hod felt bound to make the
statement which he had now laid before their Lordships
in consequence of the indecorous misstatements which
had been laid before the public.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered the pro-
duction of the letter referred to perfectly unnecessary.
Measures were now in progress to prevent the recurrence
of any mistake, and the productio❑ of such a letter
would stern to imply that the alteration was made in
consequence of the statements contained in that letter.
The Marquis of BREAi)ALI)ANE said, he thought
the Noble and Learned Lord, in the excitement of the
moment and in his anxiety to provide accommodation
fur those noble ladies, hail forgotten what really hap-
pened, and he wished to ask the Noble and Learned
Lord whether he did not address that excellent gentle-
man from the house, and say to him " Now, will you
come down?"—(Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM—No, no.—(Great laughter.)

The Marquis of BREADALBANE was told so by a
person who was present at the time.
Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble Friend, one of the
hereditary judges of the land, showed a total ignorance
of the rules of evidence.—(Loud laughter.) He did not
speak of him in his character of Lord Chamberlain, or
class him with his predecessor in Shakspere; but, as a
Peer of Parliament, he must say that he had
not the slightest notion of the law of evidence.—
(Laughter.) The Noble Lord said he was not pre-
sent, but that he heard what passed from some one who
was present.—(Laughter.) Did he say he was present
at the time?
The Marquis of BREADALBANE-11e was not a
member of your Lordships' House.
4ord BROUGHAM (with energy)—Then he misins
formed the Noble Lord—(with increased energy)—he
totally, entirely, and grossly misinformed the Noble
Lord; and the Noble Lord may tell him I say it.
The Earl of HARROWBY. had been acquainted for
many years with that most excellent individual
(Chevalier Bunsen), and willingly bore testimony
to his character as a gentleman. If that excellent
individual had had the slightest idea he was ap-
pealed to as a gentleman he would not have
hesitated to remove. He (Lord Harrowby) was certain
that this gentleman was under no such impression at the
time. He considered he had been requested—not to
make room for ladies—but to quit a place which he was
entitled to occupy as the Minister of a foreign court.
Ho would again say, he had been acquainted for twenty-
eight years with that gentleman, and he knew him to be
incapable of doing anything to impair his character as a
gentleman, or to impair his character as an observer of
the courtesies of life, which courtesies he was sure that
gentleman would be the first to offer any one. As that
gentleman's character had been impeached in their Lord-
ships' House, and the circumstances divulged to the
world, he could not withstand the opportunity of coating
forward in defence of an old and attached friend.

The Committee was then agreed to.
The Earl of HARROWBY postponed his motion on
education from Friday to Monday week, in order to make
way for the Irish franchise question.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE had no objection to
fix the debate on the Irish franchise for next Friday.
The Earl of CARLISLE brought in a Bill for the
better ventilation of coal mines and protection of miners.
The Bill was read a first time.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 21.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
On the motion for going into Supply,
Mr. HAMILTON rose to move, that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciously pleased to direct that such a modification
of the system of national education in Ireland may
be made as may remove the conscientious objec-
tions which a largo proportion of the clergy and
laity of the Established Church entertain to that sys-
tem as at present carried into operation; or otherwise,
that means may be taken to enable those of the clergy
and laity of the Established Church, who entertain such
conscientious objections, to extend the blessings of
scriptural education in Ireland. He said he felt it ne-
cessary to apo!ogiso to the House for bringing
forward tho subject on the occasion of going
into Supply, but it was of such importance that
he had felt himself compelled to take this course
He had no intention to throw out any insinuation against
the National Board of Education in Ireland. His object

was to state to the House the hardships and injustice
under which 1,730 out of 2,040 ut the clergy of the Es-
tablished Church in that country, as well us 100,000 of
the laity of that Church, were suffering in consequence of
tie present state of college education. The Church of
Ireland was placed in a very anomalous and objection-
able position in regard to educati, o, and he was anxious
to press on her Majesty's Government the necessity of ap-
plying some remedy for the purpose of altering that posi-
tion. lie was quite ready to acknowledge the, question of
education in both countries was surrounded by diffi-
culties, but more particularly in Inland; he appreciated
those difficulties, and was therefore ready to con-
cede as tar as possible the views which had
been taken on this important subject by her
Majesty's Government. In consequence of those
difficulties very great concessions and sacrifices of opi-
nion had been made of late years. Formerly education
was considered to be in a great degree connected with
the Established Church. Now the system of State edu-
cation was of a denominational character; in England it
was almost entirely so, andinlreland it was practically se.
No one could doubt that the '2,500 schools under the su-
perintendence of the Roman Catholic Church, and the
400 schools under the control of the Presbyterian clergy,
were conducted upon a scriptural system. Well, then,
if that could not he disputed, was it strange that the pe-
culiar tenets taught iu those schools were adverse to
those taught by the Established Church? The result of
this state of things was, then, that the members of the

Established Church were altogether excluded from par-
ticipating in the advantages of the national system.
The clergy of the Established Church in Ireland con-
sidered that they were peculiarly bound to main-
tain the principles of the Reformation ; and
they were of opinion that the present system of
national education was entirely at variance with
the principles of the Reformation.. They claimed the
privilege of being treated in the same manner as their
brethren of the Established Church in this country.
They objected entirely to the rules and regulations of the
National Society for Education, and the means by which
it carried oat its objects. He believed that a latitudi-
narian or secular system of education was as repugnant to
Roman Catholics as it was to Protestants; therefore any-
thing tending to that end-would be very objectionable.
Most of the clergymen of the Established Church
in Ireland, as well as many Roman Catholics, were
in favour of a national system of education, based on the
same principles as tho:e on which the schools now
in existence tied been founded. Ho had no doubt that
the clergy and laity connected with the Established
Church in Ireland, on whose representations he had been
induced to make the present motion, would be successful
in their appeal to the good sense and justice of the
House. The Hon. and Learned Member concluded by
proposing the motion, which is given above.
Mr. WALPOLE said he had great pleasure in se-
conding the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
because he believed that no more reasonable proposition
could be submitted to the House. He thought it was ir-
resistible on two grounds—on the ground of justice and
also as a matter of national policy. The system of edu-
cation in England and Ireland was essentially different.
In this country the principle upon which education was
based was a most liberal one ; whereas, in Ireland the
system was one of religious exclusion. In England the
public grants-for education were fairly divided between
all religious parties ; whereas, in Ireland the fund was
made applicable to ono combined system. The mem-
bers of the Government stated, on various occasions,
that a combined system would not answer here, because,
as they urged, it would have the effect of excluding cer-
tain religious parties from the benefit of such a system.
Yet they attempted to carry out this system in
Ireland ;
the effect of which was to exclude from the public grant
for education those schools where the Scriptures were
read without note or comment. It was true that the
system in Ireland had been proposed for the purpose of
producing goodwill amongst all parties, but this had
failed in its effects. He contended that the only system
that could work effectually was to give grants to enable
all elasses of religionists to educate their children in ac-
cordance with their own religious views. There were
in Ireland 1,861 schools, in which 120,000 children were
educated, of whom 15,000
were dissenters, and 46,000
Catholics.
Those were grounds upon which in justice,
if not in policy, they ought to accede to the principle
of general instruction, to which the members of the
Church Establishment should receive the same advan-
tage as the Roman Catholics, end he hoped the Noble
Lord would yield to the considerations he had Bug-
grated.
Sir 1V M. SOMERVILLE said, that though this mo-
tion professed not to have in view the reversal of the
existing system of education in Ireland, yet it was di-
rectly calculated to accomplish that object. The pre-
sent system of education in Ireland, which was intro-
duced by Lord Stanley, to whom in this respect the
country was under deep obligations, was essentially an
united system of education. It had now been in farce
for eighteen years, and hitherto had been attended with
considerable Advantage. Now the modification which
the motion of the lion. Member opposite was aiming
at, might be inferred from the petition which the Hon.
Member had alluded to, which evidently showed that
the great point of objection was a supposed exclusion of
the Holy Scriptures from the course of education. He
denied, however, that the Bible was excluded from these
Irish national schools. The only law on this subject
was, that the reading of the Bible should be made com-
pulsory against those who entertained conscientious
scruples in their religious views. He would ask, too,
whether the present system pursued in the national
schools of Ireland was not that also pursued in the
workhouse schools, and in the gaols? Besides, they
could not establish a separate system with respect
to the Church cf Ireland, without establishing a