The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-08 00:00:00

authority? (Loud cries of "hear, hear.") There may or
nrayponolittihcaal result;
a managementwoancdiospfu—who is there that
men;te that, however,
i ;but who
ought to object to such conduct ? But I want to know,
has there been no intriguing—has there been no exercise
of patronage in England during those 20 years, as wall as
in Ireland? (Loud cheers.) Let us meet the question
fairly. Why, sir, as Belgium has been said to be the
battle-field of Europe, so Ireland has been the battle-field
of parties ; and we have had accusations and counter-ac-
ousations'respecting the exorcise of patronage there. There
is no doubt about that. Sometimes we are told that a
particular Lord Lieutenant, gives all the patronage at his
disposal to Protestants; and in another year we are told
that the Lord Lieutenant dispenses all the patronage at
his command to Roman Catholics. But remember, this
country is a country of parties; and so it has occurred that
during the last 20 years gentlemen from Ireland, of the
Roman Catholic religion, have been followers of one party
in the state ; while gentlemen from Ireland, professing the
Protestant religion, have generally been followers of the
other parts in the state—the distribution of patronage fol-
lowing the arrangements of party. But now that we live
in calmer times, and consider subjects in a more tranquil
spirit than formerly, no one can attribute this natural
party exercise of patronage to corrupting and improper in-
fluences. Now, sir, take the last lOyears—take the time that
has intervened since our last discussion upon this subject
—take the periods of office of three Lords Lieutenant who
were noblemen or differentopinions, to illustratemy mean-
ing upon this subject. But first let me say, we are asked
to put an end to this office upon the ground theta a mockery.
Now, an argument of that kind would tell equally well
against the governors of everyone of our colonies. I might
be told that the Governor General of India was a " sham"
just as well as the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is. Again,
you are asked, to put an end to this office because it is
corrupting in its influence, not one single case having
been alleged in which corruption has been exercised. ( Hear,
hear.) Well, then, to revert to the periods of office of
three noblemen who have filled the appointment of Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland. You had the Earl of Clarendon,
the present Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He exer-
cised the office in times of considerable trouble and excite-
ment. I don't suppose that any one will pretend that the
exercise of his office was a mockery or a sham ; but what-
ever may be the difference of opinion as to the administra-
tion of Lord Clarendon, there is no doubt her Majesty con-
sidered his services so signal that she bestowed upon him
the highest honours within the power of the crown. I need
hardly say a word as to a noble friend of mine, the Earl of
Eglinton. His viceroyalty was not of any great duration,
but it was of a character so remarkable, that it remains in
the hearts and recollections of those whose interests were
the concern of his administration. (Cheers.) But we are
told to-night that Lord Carlisle is a dancer, and that he
knows the difference between a bull and a pig. Sir, I had
the honour of a seat in this house during ten years when
Lord Carlisle sat here, not only as a minister of state, but
as a secretary of a Lord Lieutenant, who held office in the
cabinet; and lot me remind the house those were not or-
dinary times. The House of Commons then reckoned
amongst its members a greater number of considerable
men than perhaps it ever before held. There may have
been individual members more remarkable than any who
flourished within these walls at that time, bat, undoubtedly
there never was a period when so great a number of dis-
tinguished men were to be counted in the House of Com-
mons than during those 10 years Lord Morpeth took a great
part in our discussions. He was one of our very greatest
debaters. He was remarkable for his .knowledge, for his
accomplishments, ant for his command of eloquence.
(Hear, hear.) He was the man who, as Secretary to the
Lord Lieutenant, -was that responsible minister for Ire-
land of whom we have heard so much. But the hon.
gentleman (Hr. Maguire) will allow me to say that it was
not complimentary to a House of Commons, where Lord
Morpeth filled so considerable a space, andheld so consi-
derable a away, to say that, having come to Ireland, that
noble
a dancer, and only able to decide
between the merits of belle and
realordl
point wasonly
bef
ore W.. We are pigs.al That leads me
to thehways here contend-
ing about forms of goveenment ; but, after alt, govern-
ment greatly depends upon the character of the individual;
and the question is, when you are talking about sham
monarchies, and the intrigues and t.of the
corrup lone Cas-
tle of Dublin—the question is, whether you have not been
enabled through the machinery of the Lord Lieutenancy,
to place in Ireland as your chief administrators men of
energy, experience, and position? Ido not say that rea-
sons may not be alleged vhy a change should not occur,
but I have not heard them. I am not quite prepared to say
that you may not devise a more rational and precise form
of administration ; but I recollect one of the most expe-
rienced members of this house, then Prime Minister of
England, aided by the knowledge and wisdom of a power-
ful cabinet, did bring forvard this scheme, and that it did
not stand against the discassions of a House of Commons
favourable to the measure. I must, therefore, proceed with
caution before I sanction a general resolution like the pre-
sent. I think the alternative offered to us is ono which we
ought to adopt. Ido net thiuk that under any circum-
stances we are justified in voting for the motion of the hon.
and learned member fur Sheffield, unless what might be
called " the enormities of the office" were so obvious, un-
less the public discontent was so overwhelming, or the
Ministry of the day so involved, that the House of Com-
mons ought to come forward and call upon the Government
to vindicate this wrong, and offer a remedy for such a pro-
scribed and acknowledged evil. But that not being our
position, I don't see what other course we ought to take
under present circumstances than to avoid giving any de-
' cision on the question beyond saying that we do not think
the present a convenient moment to discuss it—for that, I
understand, to be the real interpretation of our voting for
the previous question. All I wish to protest against now is
the interpretation which hag been put upon that vote by the
hon.and learned gentleman—namely, that it is an acknow-
ledgment of the principle which he lays down. That I
think to be quite a gratuitous interpraation of our vote.
Under general circumstances, it would be more conve-
nient that a question should be fairly met and discussed,
and that we should say aye or no as to the merits of a reso-
lution like this ; but I do net see how we could do that
unless the Government are prepared, if they accept the
principle laid down, to bring forward some practical sub-
stitute for the administration of Ireland. But they are not
prepared to do that, and, therefore, I think we (Ake a pru-
dent course in voting for the amendment, and'thus express
an opinion that it is not convenient at the present time to
discuss the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman. Let
me observe, in conclusion, that in voting for the previous
question, I beg to state that I do not in any way admit the
principle which the hon. gentleman wishes us to accept,
and I reserve to myself the right, at the proper momens, to
offer upon this subject a matured and unshackled opinion.
(Cheers.)
Mr. CONOLLY having borne a part in the discussion
which took place with reference to this question some
years ago, and when it was brought before the house in a
regular form by the Government of the day, might be al.
lowed to state very shortly the reasons which had induced
him to alter the vote which he then gave in favour of the
abolition of the office of Lord Lieutenant. He would ac-
knowledge that it was mainly owing to the opinions ex-
pressed by the late Duke of Wellington that he had been
led so completely to change his views upon the subject.
; (Cries of "Divide.") The position of Ireland was peculiar,
and it required on that account a mote direct interference
of the Executive. That was the opinion of the Duke of
Wellington, and it was one which he at least would not
be disposed to treat with levity or ridicule. He (Mr.
I Conolly) lived in the vicinity of Dublin, and ho e,uld very
I well appreciate the value of a more independent society in
I that city; still ho believed the benefits of the proposed
I abolition' would be partial and insignificant when placed
side by side with the advantages and safeguards derived
from the presence of the Lord Lieutenant.
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to reply. It had been said he had
brought forward this motion in an imprudent manner ; now
let him at once say no other course was then open to him
than that which he had pursued. He recollected hearing
Sir Robert Peel once say, upon being asked what he would
do in a particular conjuncture--he would let them know
when he was called in. (A laugh). Well, just so ;it was
enough for him, a private member, to point out a par-
ticular defect, and until he was called in the need not feel
bound to offer a remedy. The right hon. gentleman the
member for Stroud had said that, when the functions of
the house on this subject ceased those of the Government
would begin. Now that was quite natural. (Hear, hear.)
The noble lord at the head of the Government said that
if there was a Parliamentary division against the office
now, the session would close with a Parliamentary Stigma
on the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland : but was not there
already a stigma of that kind affixed to it by the vote of
(1810 ? It was stated that the Lord-Lientenancy was so
important an office that any one seeking for its removal
should state grounds for that movement. (Hear, hear.)
He had done so. He had objected to the office on the
ground of expense, and also on the ground of the irre-
sponsible nature of the Present Irish Government. (Hear,
hear) He thought these were very cogent objections. In
taking the course he had be (Mr. Roebuck) had followed
the example set him in 1850 by the noble lord the mem-
ber for the City of L mdon so far as a private member
could follow the example of a Prime Minister. It was
not his (Mr. Roebuck's) province to suggest a scheme of
Government. In the re:g • nof Queen Anne, when it took
three weeks or a month to travel to Edinburgh, a Lord-
Lieutenant was not asked for Scotland, though it was
then being united to England. He asked, then, why, now
that Ireland was within eleven hours of England, a Vice-
roy should be continued in that, country ? (Hear, hear.)
As to the panic got up about the alleged intended re-
moval of the law courts that was simply foolish. (Hear,
heaa.) No statesman could think of such a scheme. It was
no part of Lord J. Russell's scheme in 1850 ; and after all
Parliament had done to bring cheap law home to every man's
door (Hear, hoar)— it was a " sham" to say there was any
fear of the law courts of Ireland being abolished or
removed to this country. What did the Lord-Lieutenant do?
Could he do anything? Nothing. When asked to do any-
thing his Excellency said, " I must consult my superiors."
Re had not the power possessed by the Governor-General
of India. He no more governed the people of Ireland than
did the groom that waited on• him. He (Mr. Roebuck)
knew he should be in a small—a miserable minority; but
he had been too long a member of that house to be asto-.
nished at any change of opinion amongst hon. gentlemen.
Certainly the change on this subject was a great one; for,
when in 1850, there was a vote of the house in favour of
the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy, there was danger
in Ireland; but now there was nothing there but peace;
still he was quite prepared for having his proposition re-
jected by a large majority, however consonant it might be
with reason and good policy. (Hear, hear.)
The house then divided—
For the previous
question... ................. 115
Against ........................................... 266

Majority
The previous question was thereupon lost, and the mo-
tion Was not put.
ELECTION PETITIONS.
The SPEAKER announced that he had that day received
a letter from Mr. Coppock, the agent for the petitioner who
complained of an undue election for the borough of Taun-
ton, stating that it was not his intention to proceed with
the petition. The right hon. gentleman further announced
that the agents for the petitioners against the return for
the boroughs of Newport and Portsmouth had also written
to hive to say that it was not their intenticn to proceed
with their respective petitions.
It was then ordered that no further proceedinzs should
be taken by the. house upon the three petitions above
named.

THE NAVY.
Sir C. NAPIER rose to move for returns relating to the
reserved steamers and the steamers in commission at the
various ports. The hon. and' gallant gentleman said he
understood that the First Lord of the Admiralty intended
to oppose his motion on the ground that it would furnish
to foreign Powers information which it would be wiser to
keep from them. There was nothing, however, in the
returns for which he asked that ,anybody who went down
to Portsmouth, Plymouth, and other stations might not
easily pick up ; and therefore such a plea for withholding
these particulars was wholly idle and fallacious. The only
nformstion given to the house respecting the navy was
omprised in Wet estimates ; and whether the money they