The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-30 00:00:00

the the Cheirreen reeort p:ogeoss, rindesk leave to sit
agein.—(Why ? why?) It was necessary for him to call
the attention of th s House to the c eats! pursued by
H m. Gentlemen opposite in a natter personal to him-
self. About three o'clock in the daY he had crossed over
-toeth-e Ministerial benches and asked- the Right Hen.
Gentlemen the President of the Board of Trade (Mr.
Labouchere) when he would take the third reading of
the Mercantile Marine Bill? The Right Honourable
Gentleman informed him at twelve o'clock to-morrow,
when the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of
State, who was sitting beside him, said. " You must
mistake—the amendmenfs on the Irish Franchise
Bill are to come on at twelve o'clock to-morrow, to
which their consideration is adjourned; you mean twelve
o'clock to-night." To which the President of the
Board of Trade replied, " Yes, I mean twelve
o'clock to-night, and I hope you (Lord J. Manners) will
have no objection to the third reading of the Mercantile
Marine Bill being moved after all the other orders." He
replied, " Certa'nly not; and that having an amendment
to move, he would offer no obstruction to the third read-
ing, whenever it came on." Both the Right Hon. Gen-
tlemen seemed perfectly satisfied with that arrangement,
and expressed themselves more or less pleased at the co-
operation he gave to them in proceeding with the Bill.
With that understanding he left the House; and on his
le turn, f mud the third reading of the Mercantile Marine
Bill had actually been moved—whether by either of the
Right Hon. Gentleman he did not know, at half-past
seven o'clock that evening, and had been carried.—(Hear,
hear.) All ho knew was, the engagement entered into
by those Right Honourable Go.ntletneo, as members of
Government, had not been kept.—(Sir GEORGE GREY-
".There was not the smallest approach to an engage-
ment.")—(Hear, hear.") The Right lion. Baronet
it say
_so, but cif that sort of quibbling was al-
lov:ed no engeggement would be entered upon between
lion. Members. and the Government. He would ask the
President of the Board of Trade whether, in all the
transactions relating to the Bill, be had not shown the
greatest anxiety to consult his convenience, and whether
he had exhibited the least wish to offer to it a factious
opposition? He had then a right to complain, and he
did complain, of that sort of conduct, and all those ar-
rangements which tended so much to the mutual conve-
nience of the members of the Government must in fu-
ture be disregarded; and it would be the duty of Hon.
Gentlemen ou this side of the House to exert every sort
of opposition to Government, and to disregard all state-
ments of Ministers except those made publicly in their
places. Had it not been for the declaration of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he (Lord J. Manners) would have
been in his place ready to propose the amendment which
stood in his name on the paper, and be appealed to the
House whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had acted on
this occasion in the way in which he had sated hitherto,
or if his conduct had been what he (Lord J. Manneis)
had a right to expect —(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he should be very sorry
indeed if any conduct on his part could have rendered
him justly liable to the imputation of having acted in
any way but with the most scrupulous fidelity in any
engagements he might have made with any Honour-
able Member. He felt very deeply the important cha-
racter of those engagements, and how much the conve-
nience of the House and the dispatch of business de-
pended on their being adhered to with the most invio-
lable fidelity. But he hoped, before he sat down, to
remove from the mind of the Noble Lord the false im-
pression under which he seemed to labour. It was
quite true, both as to the Noble Lord and as to other
Members, that he (Mr. Labouchere) had stated, if the
discussion which had occupied the greater part of the day
should be brought to a close at any time before twelve
c'cleck at night, that he should move the third reading
of the Mercantile Marine Bill, for he felt it to be of great
importance that that measure should be sent up to the
other House of Parliament with as little delay as pos-
sible, but he never for a single moment contemplated any-
thing so very extraordinary as letting the most conve-
nient opportunities pass by and keeping back that or
any other measure till 12 o'clock. Every one knew
that the discussion respecting the Baron de Rothschild
had ended much sooner than was expected, and if the
Noble Lord had been taken by surprise, so also was he
(Mr. Labouchere), for he was himself not in the House
when the Bill was read a third time, his Noble Friend
at the head of the Government being the Member who
then took charge of it, and by whom it was successfully
pasted through its last stage, at which time the amend-
ment that the Noble Lord had intended to propose was
moved by another Member. Having made this short
statement, he trusted the House would do him the justice
to believe that he never intended to take the Noble Lord
by surprise. He hoped during the ten years he had had
a seat in that House he never pursued, any course which
could justify an imputation of any unfairness. He was
sorry that any misapprehension should have occurred,
but he begged the House to observe that not only the
Noble Lord, but the Hon. Member for Liverpool, was
also absent when the Bill was read a third time. There
could not be a greater mistake than to suppose that he
had ever made any such arrangement as the Noble Lord
had supposed him to make, for it would be so mani-
lestly against the course of order in that House that
the Speaker would have interfered to prevent its being
carried into effect. He should conclude by repeating
an expression of regret that any misapprehension had
arisen, and by hoping that the House would acquit him
of intending to take any one by surprise.
Lord J. MANNERS said that no doubt the Right
Hon. Gentleman did not mean to take him by surprise,
but he must be permitted to say that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had distinctly told him that be intended to
take the Mercantile Marine Bill at twelve o'clock, after
the other orders of the day were disposed of, and he dis-
tinctly remembered the Home Secretary observing that
they could not proceed with the Bill at twelve o'clock
to-morrow. The Right Hon: Gentleman the President
of the Board of Trade might have meant that he would
proceed with the measure before twelve, but he said that
he should not do so till twelve—be certainly fell into
some mistake, and deceived not only himself but him
(Lord J. Manners).
Sir G. GREY observed,-that as he had been appealed
to be felt it due to himself to say, that. he entered into
no engagement whatever, but contented himself with ob-
serving that twelve o'clock to-morrow was a time already
occupied. Beyond that he had not opened his lips, but
he was bound now to state that be certainly understood
his Right Hon. Friend to say that after the debate which
then occupied the attention of the House was concluded
he should move the third reading of the Mercantile Ma-
rine Bill; but certainly no one expected that that debate
would have been so soon over.
Admiral BOWLES stated, that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the President of the Board of Trade told him,
not that he would wait till 12 o'clock, but that he would
proceed with the Mercantile Marine Bill, even if no op-
portunity of moving it occurred before 12 o'clock; that,
if necessary, he should go on with it as late as
12 o'clock.
Lord J. MANNERS said, that if the Right Hon.
Gentleman had told that to him he should not have
been taken by surprise, but he never said any thin of
the sort.
Mr. ANDERSON rose to say that he had spoken to
the Right Hon. President of the Board of Trade in the
lobby on the subject, when his reply to an inquiry was,
that it would probably be late that night, and, as he in-
tended to second the clause of the Noble Lord, he took
the liberty of moving it in his absence.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that a sum of 211,1391. be granted for
excess of naval expenditure,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY rose to call attention to a
sum of 29,5341. expended upon iron steamers. Tbey did
not derive that sum from any surplus, nor had they ex-
pended it with the consent of the Treasury. Further,
accountlinei
it was in clear violation of the Appropriation Act. At
the same time he was bound to admit that the Board of
Audit had exercised all fitting vigilance upon the occa-
sion. Upon these grounds ho should propose that the
proposed grant be reduced by the sum of 29,5341.
whSicirhrtheßpAaßymlNenGt onaxp othfetheiricruomn circumstances under
wasnder
made. The year before last money was taken to pay for
these iron steamers. The estimates of the expenditure
for the next year were framed in the month of October,
and presented in 1849. But he found that the contracts,
which were expected to terminate before the termination
of the financial year, did not fall within that financial
year. and thereke e the payments ran actually a few
weeks beyond the financial year. He made a payment
on account, though not legally compellable; and he had
stated the excess, on the principle that Parliament
ought to know how it had occurred.
Mr. HENLEY thought the matter was not yet clearly
before the House. The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
say he had committed the fault of having an excess, but
had shown it to Parliament, and that he might have car-
ried it to another year, without their knowing anything
of it. There was a third alternative—that of notspend-
ing in excess at all. The statement was not satisfactory
as to how the excess arose.
Sir F. BARING had stated, in opening the estimates,
the ground of that excess, which occurred before he came
into office. A good deal of it arose from the number of
men being carried beyond the vote, and from the pay of
the men being taken on a wrong calculation.
Mr. HUME did not believe they would get rid of these
excesses until they came to a resolution that the Lords
of the Admiralty should pay the excess themselves.—(A
laugh.) He was quite ready to make the Right Hon.
Baronet pay it himself.
Sir J. GRAHAM. observed that the excess was not
incurred under the administration of the First Lord of
the Admiralty, and no one more agreed with the position
laid down by the Hon. Member for Montrose than the
First Lord himself, that these excesses were to be cares
fully avoided. It might be confidently anticipated that
under his administration, though it was difficult to know
how excesses could always be avoided, Parliament would
to' the utmost see en end put to these grants. There
was one principle to which the Right Hon. Baronet had
not adverted, that when any such unexpected expendi-
ture was incurred, it was most desirable to have it
brought under the cognizance of the Treasury.
Mr. REYNOLDS complained that, while 700,000
gallons of rum were consumed in the Royal Navy, home -
made spirits were not advertised
to be taken under the
contracts, though there was no Parliamentary resolution
giving a preference to rum.
Mr. FRENCH observed, that at the Admiralty the
interests of Ireland were not represented. There was
no Irish Lord of the Admiralty. Such was not the case
in the late Administration, which was supposed to be
more adverse to the interests of Ireland. The Member
for Tyrone (Mr. Corry) was then Secretary for the Ad-
miralty.
Colonel SIBTHORP would veto with the two Hon.
Gentlemen who had just spoken in favour of consuming
Irish whisky in th , Royal Navy rather than rum; but he
could not understand how, with their views, they sup-
perted her Majesty's Minit.ters, of whom no man enter-
tained a worse opinion in their public capacity than he
did.—(A laugh.) lie advised the Hon. Gentleman to
leave the bad company in which he was placed. He
should remember that evil communications corruted
good manners; „d, if he remained longer amongst his