The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-16 00:00:00

PRIVILEGE.

Mr. MANNERS SUTTON hoped the House would
not agree to the motion.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBk said the clause involved a new
principle, and one of great importance. He objected to
the power given to the Commissioners to fix the annual
value which was to give a vote to the rate-payer. This
power had never been given to the Commissioners, and
he hoped it never would be. If the postponement of
the clause was not consented to, he should move the
omission of the words giving that power.
Mr. WAKLEY entreated the Hon. Gentleman to
postpone the clause. The clause was one that could not be
discussed in the absence of the Right Hon. Baronet, who
had charge of the Bill.
Mr. FERRAND called the attention of the Govern-
ment to the power given by the clause to the overseers of
the poor to appoint the district board that was to manage
the schools of the poor.
Mr. M. 'SUTTON could,not consent to the postpone-
ment of the clause. The power given to the Commis-
sioners was the same as that given theni by the 38th sec.
of the New Poor-law Act.

Mr. HAWES thought that the clause ought not to be
discussed in the absence of any Member of the Govern-
ment who would be able to afford the House any ex-
planation.
Mr.B. COCHRANE said that this showed how little was
known of the new Poor-law. Here was a power possessed
by the Commissioners which few were aware of. He
thought that the power of the Commissioners ought to
be curtailed, and not increased.

Captain FITZROY thought that the conduct adopted
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and by some on his side,
was such as to afford any Government little inducement
to bring forward a Bill to mitigate the operation of the
new law. He thought the opposition to the Bill was an
unfair one. He was as much opposed to the new Poor-
law as any one, and as such he was justified in not op-.
posing a Bill which was a mitigation of that law
He thought that the conduct evinced with regard to this
measure showed who were the real friends of the poor.
It was not enough to come down to the House like the
Noble Lord the Member for Newark, to make flashy
speeches, in order that they might appear in the news-
te ther es t
hmask r
ewnadss
enfo wt h takeetaken
r.o—ff t, hoo
hsewhhy,
cpaallpeedrs.theßmus
and " Hear, hear.")
Sir C. NAPIER said he did not know whether he
was included amongst those who wished to stop the Bill.
He had no wish to stop it, but it was no wonder that the
Bill should be delayed when, on the last evening it was
under discussion, a clause was for four or five hours
under consideration, which, according to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, was not applicable to the rural districts,
and which the metropolitan districts did not want.—
(Hear, hear.) • Why should such a clause be introduced
into the Bill? He hoped this discussion would induce
the Government to pay more attention to the Bills they
introduced. They were now on the 24th line of the
present clause, which he thought was a very improper
one. He hoped they would not pass it. He
considered it gave the Commissioners too much power,
and therefore he should oppose that part of it.
After a desultory conversation,
Mr. M. SUTTON moved that the Chairman do report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The House then resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported
progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wednesday
next, at Twelve o'clock.
The House then adjourned till Five o'clock.

Lord BROUGHAM then rose to call the attention of
their Lordships to a gross statement which had appeared
in one of the newspapers of the day. The passage in
question, in the newspaper alluded to, the Britannia,
stated, that Lord Brougham had given up his pet
scheme of the new judgeship in the Privy Council, and in
, obedience to Lord Lyndhurst had withdrawn the clauses
relative to divorce. It went on to state that Lord Brougham
no longer took any interest in the Bill, and the above clauses
were taken out of the Bill during his absence. Now he
(Lord Brougham) had on two occasions distinctly denied
ever having applied for any situation under the new Privy
Cguncil Bill ; and with' respect to the clauses that had
been withdrawn, he could only say that he had re-
quested his Noble and Learned Friend on the woolsack
- to withdraw them for him.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he could confirm
what the Noble Lord had stated.
The subject then dropped.
E- COMMITTEE.
tord SANDON appeared at the bar with a message
frclm the Commons, requesting their Lordships to allow
the Duke of Wellington and another Noble Peer to give
evidence before the Post-office Comniittee sitting in the
other House.—Leave was given.
BIRKENHEAD DOCK BILL.
he Earl of STRADBROKE moved the third reading
of his Bill.
-
he motion was agreed to. -
n the motion that the Bill do pass,
he Marquis of SALISBURY moved the addition of
certain clauses, and in doing so made some rather severe
remarks on the conduct of Mr. Mallaby, the solicitor
to :the promoters of the Bill.
tJord BROUGHAM thought it was unfair for Noble.
Lotrds to make grave accusations against absent persons.
The Earl.of WICKLOW thought the Bill ought to be
sent back to the Committee.
pord MONTEARIiE thought the Bill a most ita
pottant one to the trade and commerce of the country,
and was one which ought to pass with the least possible
de may.

The• House resumed its sitting at Five o'clock.
The London and Croydon Railway Bill was read a
hird time and passed.
Mr.. HUTT presented a petition from Gateshead,
complaining of the opening of letters by the Post-office
authorities.
Mr. WARBURTON presented a petitiOn from certain
parties- in the eastern division of Surrey, complaining of
the contradictory decisions of revising barristers.
Messengers from the Lords brought down several
Bills, and also asked leave for Lord Palmerston to be
examined before the Postage Committee of the Upper
House, which was agreed to.
NOTICES OF MOTION—MR. WODEHOUSE
AND MR. WAKLEY.
Mr. WODEHOUSE said he had a notice of motion
to give : but before he did so he hoped the House would
allow him to say a few words in reference to what fell
from: him on Saturday last. It had been intimated to
him that the• explanation which he had given on that
occasion to the lion. Member for Finsbury had not been
satisfactory, and he had, therefore, no hesitation in
frankly and explicitly saying, that when he made the
allusion he referred to, he had acted under an erroneous
impreSsion with respect to the trial. The Honour-
able Gentleman, it now appeared to him, from the
explanation which he had given, had a verdict
distinctly in his favour—that everything which occurred
efterwards was also clearly in his favour, and, there-
fore, he (Mr. Wodehouse) feeling that he had done
the Honourable Member for Finsbury an injury, felt
it his bounden duty to make himself the instrument
of reparation.—(Loud cheers.) He felt this to -be
a duty which be owed, not only to the Honourable
Member himself, but to all connected with him
—(Cheers)—not only to his relations in private
life, but to his connexions and his friends in
public life, did he feel it his duty to make this ex-
planation. He (Mr. Wodehouse) hoped he would
be 'permitted not to go any further into the matter, but
at once to tender his: apology to the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, and his thanks to the House for allowing him
the opportunity of doing so.—(Loud cheers.) He now
begged to give notice, that at an early period of
the-next session he should move an address to her Ma-
jesty, praying she would be graciously pleased to appoint
a Commission of Inquiry, with a view to restoring the
standard of money on which it had been placed by the
advice of Sir Isaac Newton.—(Laughter.)
The SPEAKER having read the notice of motion
from the Chair; -
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose arid said, in reference to
what had fallen from an honourable Member on a
personal matter, ,he thought, after the insinuation
which had been made, and after the full and ex-
plicit expression of regret for that insinuation—an
expression which he (Sir Robert Peel) believed to be
sincere,' and which he was sure must be sufficient for
an honourable and innocent mind—(Cheers) the
Honourable Member for Finsbury might retire from the
House that night, with the understanding that complete
reparation hail. been made'to his feelings, and that he
could carry his head as erect in public as any man
breathing.—(Great cheering from all parts of the
House.) And he was sure that he (Sir R. Peel) was
only expressing the unanimous feeling of that House, in
moving that they should put on record this declaration of
their opinion.—(Continued and general cheering.)
Mr. WAKLEY rose (evidently under very subdued
feelings) and said, it was impossible for him to refrain
frbm expressing his gratitude to the Right Hon. Baronet
for what had fallen from him, and he must also express
his grateful acknowledgments to the House for the man-
ner in which they had -protected him in this most
painful .affair.=-(Load cheering.) At the same time
he must say that he received the expressions of
the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Wodehouse)
in the same spirit in which they were offered, as a frank
and honest expression of regret for what had occurred.
-(Loud cheers.) That reparation he felt ought to be
satisfactory, not only to himself, but to every member of
his family; and he had a particular motive for making
this declaration.—(Loud and general cheering.)
Here the matter dropped.
HORSE-RACING AND GAMBLING.
Mr. CHRISTIE said that after the observations which
had been made elsewhere, he thought the House would
not refuse him an opportunity of making an explana-
tion. It had been complained in. another House that he
stated there was presumptive proof that an improper use
had been wade of the evidence delivered before the
House of Lords. He had no intention of accusing the
Noble Duke who presided over the Committee of the
House of Lords of conspiracy.—(Hear.)
Lord A. LENNOX hoped the House would indulge
him for one moment. 'He only had to say that he
thought gentlemen—he begged pardon, he meant
to say " Honourable Members "—ought rather to in-
quire into the facts of the'cases which they brought be-
fore the House.—(Cheers.)
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
Mr. HUME wished to ask a question of the Right
Hon. Baronet (.Sir J„Graham) respecting the law for
abolishing imprisonment for debt.. He found that
within the last twelve -years upwards of '12,000 persons
had been imprisoned for debt, notwithstanding the Bills
that had.heen broughi: in. professedly for the purpose
of abolishing the imprisonment.
Sir J. GRAHAM was understood to say, that he did
not consider the Bills brought before Parliament to have
any other object than the release of debtors against whom
fraud could not be alleged.
• •RUSSIA.• • •
In answer to a 9uestionfrom•Mr..CHßlSTlE,
Sir R,:l3.Ein,...said. that. thOe was no correspondence
between Russia and this country which he could lay be-
fore the House. -
Mr. WAWN wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man
the President of. the Board of :Trade, whether her
Majesty's. Government have taken, or intend to take,
any measures at. the. Court of Russia, to get the vessels
Of this country (not three years old) exempt from
navigation dues in Russian ports, and to be placed upon
an equal fooiing in that respect with vessels built in
Russia, and belonging to Russian subjects.
7 -Mr. GLADSTONE said that no such attempt had
been made ; nor was he aware that any was in contem-
plation. Russia had the privilege in consequence of the
advantages conferred by the treaty.
Lord PALMERSTON wished to know what were the
advantages which Russia granted to England under the
treaty as An equivalent to which English vevels were
subject to a disadvantage as compared with those of
Russia.'
Mr. GLADSTONE—The. advantaee of hiving the
ships of England received On tho footing of privilege in
the Russian ports, from whatever quarter of the globe
they might come.
On the motion that the orders of the day be read,
Mr. CHRISTIE rose and said he had understood the
Noble Lord opposite to say that he should have pursued
a course more consistent with the character of a gentle-
man and an honourable man. -
Lord. A. LENNOX said he did not know what were
the exact words which he had used, but he resumed
that they were not unparliamentary, or else le would
have come under the notice of the Speaker. - He was not
in the habit of making improper imputations upon any
Member of that Honse, batihe triisted'the House would
enter somewhat into his .feelings when he thought that
a noble and clear relative of his had been grossly maligned
by an Hoii. Member.---(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER said that if had understood thO
Noble Loid`to have made any imputation on the per-
sonal honour of the Hon. and, Learn,,d Members he would
have called upon to retract it at the time. But he
•
now thought that the conversation-was irregular as there
was no
,question:, before the House. Hon. Members
would d(") well 'if they 'would confine their attention tp
the•subject-mattera under the consideration of the House,

'be Earl of HADDINGTON supported the Bill.
'he Marquis Of LANSDOWNE thought it was the
,y of their Lordships to pass this Bill.
lkfter a few words from Lord STRADIIROKE and Lord
dotionam,
he Marquis of SALISBURY withdrew his opposi-
, and the Bill passed.
BANK CHARTER BILL.
his Bill was read a third time and passed. '
-- DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL.
rd MELBOURNE presented several petitions in
fa ,ur of this Bill. -
The LORD CHANCELLOR then rose to move the
vao
CoMmons' amendments to the Bill. He said that, in spite
of !the opposition of certain Noble Lords and a Right
Re Prelate in that House, this Bill had passed through
bo h Houses of Parliament. Still, however, the opponents
of he Bill were not discomfited. The principle of the
Bi flaying been adopted by both Houses, it only. re-
ir
malined fur their Lordships-.to -consider- certain- --amend-.
• ts, which had been made by the House of Commons.
r is was all they had now to do ; but he understood
,lis ta- most unprecodented course was about to be
td pted by a Rev. Prelate, which was that the amend-
n is be considered on that day six months. Such a
n tion as this would be a slight upon the House of
..;o mons, and he could hardly think that any Noble
...4 d would persevere in such a course. The amend-
'lents were not of a complicated character, nor did they
.ecluire any very grave consideration in order to under
-
a d them. Why, therefore, it should be proposed that
,h fiFald be postpiiied for six months, especially after
,h principle of the Bill had been affirmed by both
1
El uses of Parliament, he could not understand. The
m ion was a most extraordinary one, and one the object
of hich could only be to defeat the measure. The
N le Lord then proceeded to explain the nature of the
amendments which had been made in the Bill by the
H use of Commons, and he concluded by earnestly
cal ing upon their Lordships to give their assent to the
a -ndinents which had been made.
e hlce.asßisahbooputof LONDONtapnrsue adwmasitteadnthantnntshnealcourse
h one,
an one which was only to be adopted in ex-
tr e and urgent cases. This Bill contravened
th dictates of common sense, and was contrary
to the maxims of' reason. There was one chance
lb the defeat of this measure, and he now intended to
wail himself of this last opportunity of opposing this
ill
Bi I. It might be 'said that he was pertinacious in his
sppositiOn ; but when hae found
formidablethat allar array
ye
marshalled arguments
igainst the fundamental principles of the Bill had been
un
saw thatin hanswered, he thought
House,
ghtthat
but
he
uit,aysbfeoeratmifieead viivrttuhee.
theretwas
.akagfso;iwnlsegetdhimthat out of doors this Bill was looked upon
as :a most dangerous one, and one to which the majority
of; the judges and of the legal profession were decidedly
opposed. He recollected no question—not even except-
ing the Catholic question—upon which the public mind
hard been so .much. agitated. ' He believed, and out of
doors it was generally believed, to be a measure hostile
to religious truth, and one which would have a most dan-
gerous tendency. He concluded by moving that the
Commons' amendments to this Bill be taken into con-
sideration on that day six months.
The Bishop of DURHAM did not anticipate that the
danger which the Right Rev. Prelate so much feared
wouldfresult from the passing of this Bill. He looked
upon the Bill as a measure calculated to do justice to all,
and to bring the whole body of the Dissenting papule-
dem within the protection of the law. Under these cir-
cumstances, be could not fear that any bad effect would
result from the operation of this. Bill.
'Lord BROUGHAM argued that if these amendments
were to be rejected, a conference with the Commons would
be appointed ; and if, in that conference, the Commons
should consent to withdraw the amendments, the Bill
would then pass, and the Right Rev. Prelate would gain
nothing by his motion. Everybody admitted that the Bill
had been improved by the amendments which had been
rdade, and he, for • one, could not see on what pos
sible ground, any opposition could be offered to
them. He thought this Bill would prove as beneficial to
the Trinitarians as the Unitarians, for it might happen
that a case would be found in which Trinitarians were
holding poesession of a Unitarian foundation. He con-
sidered this to be a Bill of peace, and as such he had al-
ways supported it.
The Bishop of NORWICH had formerly looked upon
this Bill as nothing less than a Socinian Endowment Bill,
hut he had been deceived, for he now discovered that
this was not a theological measure, but merely a mea-
sure of justice and—or-equity. "Many others had been
Paced in the same situation, and having discovered their
error, had deeply regretted having placed their hands to
petitions which had been presented against the Bill. On ,
examination he had found that
,the majority of the peti-
tions upon this subject were in favour of the Bill, and
that those petitions which were in favour of the measure
were signed by very few persons. The question was not
one of religion or doctrine, but a question of equity. and
justice, and it was not for man to separate those princi-
ples which God had joined together. On these conside-
rations he should give his unqualified support to the
Bill, for in doing this he was only acting on that prin-
ciple which taught them to do unto others as we would
they should do unto, us.—(cheers.)
The Earl of RODEN looked upon this Bill as a Bill
of injustice, because it gave a property to persbris who
had no right to it. He defended the course which had
been adopted to reject this Bill, and contended that many
precedents could be found for it.
Lord COTTENHAM contended that this measure
Was strictly Conservative in -its principle, for it was
intended to confirm the possession of property to persons
sWidheorehdadthe held it
dntfomreagsrewaetrea
number of years. He con.
great improvement to
the Bill, and he apprehended that that question was the
only one which they had to consider.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
Lord TEYNHAM felt that a deep wound was inflicted
on religion by this Bill. The original owners of the
property, respeeting which this Bill had been framed,
would xather have suffered fine and confiscation—would
rather have suffered death itself in Smithfield, than have
lived to see their houses.of worship pass into the hangs
of those to Whom this Bill would give them.
After a few words from the Earl of GALLOWAY and
Lord Litrretspx in support of the amendment,
The House divided on the amendment, that the Com-
mons' amendments be considered that day three months,
Content ... , 27
Non-Content
Mzijority for the arrendments --73
.Presies—Ceniela l4
- Non-c intent lO2 '
lqajority for- the amendment); —BB
The amendments were then agreed to.
The remaining Bills on the table were then forwarded
stage, and their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 15.
• POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
On the next clause being proposed,
Sir C. NAPIER moved that the Chairman do re-
port progress..

i. • :4 1. rt

-~ q

„...........----.
....—....--_—,—........
and not allude to previous debates.—(Loud cries of ing conviction impressed on him, that upon the conduct
” Hear, hear.")
of that trial there was not a disposition to give die ac-
Mr. DUNCOMBE said,' as his Hon. and Learned cased every fair advantage whieh they had a right to
Friend the Member for Weymouth had retracted the demand.—(Hear, hear.) 'rake for instance the conduct
offensive expressions he had used in reference to the re- of the clerk of the Crown in the very beginning of the
lation of the Noble Lord, he thought the Noble Lord proceedings--let them take the case of . Mr. Bona
should likewise retract the expression " grossly ma- Hughes, when he made a mistake in swearing that Ma
,ligned," which he had just repeated,—(Hear, hear.) Barrett was present at the meeting which he afterwards
Surely that was not aParliamentary expression.—(Hear.) discovered he was not at, and which he (Mr. Hughes)
Lord ARTHUR LENNOX thought his explanation wished to correct when he saw Mr. Barrett at Judge
had been satisfactory to the Hon. and Learned Mem- Burton's chambers.—(Hear, hear.) This was not 3
ber. He thought he had cast imputations of an improper question between man and man, but it was one involv-
nature on his noble relative the Duke of Richmond, and ing the interests of a whole community.—(Hear, hear.)
on that occasion had he supposed made use of some ex- There were several other instances where a similar dis-
pressions which it appeared the Hon. Member did not position was evinced. There were demands made for
like.—(Loud cries of " Order.") copies of the indictment—for the names of witnesses-a
After a pause, the refusal of which showed a narrow spirit, and a bitter
Lord A. LENNOX again rose and said, Sir, I will hostility to the traversers. The first claim by the
put an end to this discussion, which I know it is wrong traversers was, as he said' before, for the copy of the
to proceed with. •If I have said anything personally indictment. Surely the spirit of British law was—if n
offensive to the Hon. Member, I beg leave to retract it. man were indicted, he should know the accusation
—(Laughter and cheers.) against him, and who were his accusers.—(Hear, hear.)
THE IRISH TRIALS. The claim was not made in the' spirit of idle curiosity,
The Orders of the Day were then read, and severally but as a matter vital to the defence of the accused--
postponed, and he had a right to know whether the indictment was 0'
Mr. WYSE rose to bring forward the motion of which cording to the statute, and how, according to the terms
he had given notice on this subject. He first presented and charges of the indictment he could best defend him-
a large number of petitions from several places in Ire- self. He looked to the statute and found that certain
land, praying for inquiry. He had also another petition conditions were required. He now understood that the
to which he begged to draw the attention of the House. reason leave of inspection was refused, was because the,
It was from a number of noblemen and gentlemen deeply Crown were desirous to press 'on the case, and
interested in the tranquillity and prosperity of Ireland, feared advantage might be taken and debit'
complaining in strong language of the state of that might be interposed. Well, and if there were
country—of the discontent that universally prevailed delay, there might be delay and just delay.—(Hear)
throughout it, arising from the bad administration of the There was the delay of justice and the delay of ina
laW—of the inferior position in which the nation was justice; and the accused had a right to that delay wade°
kept—of the inadequate representation of the people—of would enable him to prepare his defence. The tra
the existence of the Church Establishment, and stating verser's attorney applied for the caption; the captioa
the feeling that universally existed, that -Ireland .too, was refused—the Crown said the accused bad no
had not her fair share of the legislation of right to it, but the judges were not so clear upon the
the United Empire.—(Hear.) (The Hon. Member point. But he would not dwell upon these minute bet
read some of the signatures to the petition, which in- painful grievances. He would come at once to the
eluded the names of the Duke of Leinster, the Marquis grand question of complaint—the whole ground of the
of Kildare, Lord Rossmore, and a large number of Irish triumph of
,the Government on this occasion—the jury
noblemen.) In submitting to the consideration of the If all the other proceedings were dictated by 3
House the motion of which he had given notice a con- spirit of the utmost fairness, and if the jury were
siderable time back, he begged to state that he came for- unequally, partially, unjustly, improperly selected, no
ward on no insufficient grounds, and at no improper matter what might be the crime of the individual, the
period, while the subject was one which he believed to trial was unfair.—(Hear, heir.) The tribunal was not
every part of the empire was of the greatest importance. what a British subject had a right to expect. There
He did not come forward without sufficient grounds, for was an essential want—a want which vitiated the whole
he presented to the House on the 21st of March, a pea- proceedings, and which entitled the prisoner to say he
tion signed by no less than 750,000 of the inhabitants of had not had a fair trial. He (Mr. Wyse) would under'
Ireland, calling for immediate inquiry into the state of take to show them that tribunal was defective—most de-
Ireland. Added to that petition, he had presented an- fective—and, if he did so, he would call upon the British
other, signed by 26,000 persons, reiterating the same House of Commons, as the protector of the Constitu-
prayer. Other petitions had been presented, signed by tion and of the liberties of the people—as the pre'
49,000 persons, forming in the whole a large aggre- server of the purity of trial by jury—the greatest
gate of the Irish people, all praying for palladium of the British people—to
inquire
inquiry. To these petitions had been added the one into the facts and see who were the defaulters.
presented by the solicitors retained for the traversers, He would call upon them to free themselves from the
and that of the Corporation of Dublin, each demanding imputation of being participators in the injustice—t°
the same inquiry. In opposition to these petitions, there listen to the people who cried out " Hear us." If they
had only been laid on the table the one petition of Mr. would not do so, they would show more convincingly
Magrath, and, after a careful comparison of that petition by their own act than by any allegation of the Irish
with that of the traversers, it appeared to him, so far people, that they were not disposed to do justice to
from modifying the statements of their petition, that it their fellow-subjects.—(Hear.) (The Hon. Gentleman
had confirmed his opinion of its authenticity. When, to then alluded to two petitions which had been laid on the
these was added the petition just laid on the table .of the table of that House; one from the attorney of the convictea,
House, one not coming from men connected with the Re- and the other a counter petition. The Hon. Member
peal Association, but from men, many of whom were then went on to compare these two documents, and ad'
directly opposed to repeal—men who, from their pro- verted to the mode of getting up the jury list, which he
perty, long acquaintance with Ireland, and high rank, were censured as most one-sided and unfair.) The proceedings
fair representatives of the aristocratic opinions of that in the Recorders' Court for the revision of the jury list
country, and when they all concurred in saying more resembled a bitter election . contest than
that the country . was in • a state of division—that an equitable and solemn arrangement prepare-
discord prevailed in 'it, and that there were no hopes tory to a great and important trial.—(Hear,
of relief from that state, ..except by complying hear.) ' There were two Conservative election •
with the demands of justice, he thought he had some agents for the Conservative party, who . objected
claims on the attention of the House. He believed that to those persons put forward by the repealers, Messrs.
he did not come forwardat anamproper period. During Walker and. Jackson ; whilst the repealers made their
the whole time the subject was pending in the law courts objections to those put forward on the other side. The'
in 'lreland he had refrained from bringing it forward, greatest possible acrimony and bad ..feelings,was exhi-
and since that time he had been debarred from doing so bited, but the repealers had the greater cause, for they .
in consequence of the long period that elapsed between were the accused:. The greatest accuracy was desirable
his moving for certain papers and their being laid on the in those proceedings, and it should have been secured.
table. The question was still pending before another Mr. Walker was not refused the opportunity of compare
House, and he should not now have interposed, but that ing the lists. He was allowed to compare them with ,
he' trusted he should be able to show he was-dealing Mr. M'Grath. (The-Hon. Gentleman then read extracts
with quite a distinct subject. Let it not be said, there- from the affidavit of Mr. M'Grath, in which the depo'
foie, that he came forward on hisuffiment grounds, or at neat disclaimed that he was influenced by any improper •
an improper period. As to the subject itself, surely motive.) He (Mr. Wyse) complained that the House of
there was never one which demanded more earnest Commons should allow such irregularities, if they de- '
attention from her Majesty's Government. He had not served no other name, to pass unnoticed.—(Cheers.)
the advantage of legal knowledge, and least of all could There were good grounds for believing that, notwith- •
he' claim their attention
.after the eminent men who had standing the affidavit of Mr. M'Grath, fifty or sixty
di4cussed and exhatisted the subject-` But this he would names had been omitted. One of the persons whose
say, that he was an Irish Catholic—the representative of an names were omitted, wrote to the Recorder requesting
Irish Catholic constituency—and he could not but feel, that his name should be inserted. To that letter be re- •
with almost all his country-men, that Mr. O'Connell was- ceived no answer.---(Hear, hear.) (The H. ember
an, eminent man in the age in which they lived. Ile then read the letter,
and contended, from theon stateMments,
coald not but feel that to his exertions millions of his that it was not fifteen or sixteen names omitted, but be-
fellow-countrymen owed the throwing open the gates tween fifty and sixty.) Mr. M'Grath admitted in his
of :the Constitution, and that he himself had the power affidavit that distinctions of qualification had been an- • '
of addressing them in that place. He also remembered flexed to the names of persons in an improper manner.
that Mr. O'Connell, though a Catholic, had no Catholic Suiely they would not on the opposite side of the House
on'his jury. He remembered, as an Irishman, he had tell him that that -was the way in which- they them-.
been adjudged by. a tribunal to a sentence which they selves would wish to have their juries formed and their.
had heard in that House from an English jury and trials conducted ?—(Hear, hear.) And if they Would
English judges he would not have been exposed ; and not, after the prima facie case he had
,made out, he., these questions, however closely they were now con- did not think they would venture to say that inquiry ,
fined to Ireland, might soon be extended to themselves. was uncalled for. For his own Tart he was by no means
Tie worst evils were these which crept- in- under the satisfied that there had not been more interference with
saiction of justice; the worst- and most dangerous re- the lists than that of which they were already cognizant. -
sults , were those which were consigned to the He was entitled to think there were other grounds for •
statute book, by the decision of judicial Men. They his motion than those even which had been stated, and
mi"ht not be able, perhaps, openly to assail the Consti- ' he might very fairly be permitted to demand. the oppore
tution, but they might undermine it, and this undernsin- tunity and the means for inquiry. Leaving out of the
in* was what was most to beapprehended. Give him a question the influence that one-tenth might have had on
pe ple who had free discussion, and who lived under the- the *hole panel—not heeding what chances that circual-
le is of' equal laws, and he cared not what Ministry er stance might have had in Mr. O'Connell's favour—there ,
wet Legislature they might create—that people would was the question of still greater importance for the
sooner 9r later vindicate. themselves in the eye of the. public, and that was to convince them that he had had
wdrld. He did not Mean to discuss the cpiestion in con- a fair trial.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") It would
neation with its legal difficulties.... He should limit him- have been infinitely better to have had no trial at all ;
self to the facts, of the case. He
.eskedfor no condem- for if the people of Ireland were in such a state that
nation or censure. of , the &averment. He should net they could not afford to treat them with that impel"'
discuss points of law, nor enter into 'the subject in con- tiality - with- which they treated Englishmen, better.
ne •tion with the matter before the House -of would it have been to have let the *evil- go on
.--
L gds.
The object of the Government- -for many (Hear, hear.) And then let them reflect on the charge
(
ye rs in Ireland' had been to neutralise the 'ques- which had been delivered by the- judge. That
Lion of repeal. It was considered a matter of charge called to his mind the times of Charles the
importance in Ineland either to exorcise the -question Second, when: the judges extenuated evidence on the
of repeal from the country, or to crush it, to expel its one side, and exaggerated it on the other, just to suit
either gently or by mein force. • The opinions on repeal their own, or other people's purposes ; and when no
were various some thought it a magnificent impossi- confidence was felt, of could be felt, in the justice of
bility—many argued thatat would. be a good,thing if it the legal tribunals of the country.•—(Hear, hear.)
cold be carried. Others, not only.eonsidered ;it could. He would not go into any further question of
the trial
ndt be carried, but that if carried it would be a danger- itself ; he was precluded by the terms- of his motion
otis thing for. Ireland, _Other: were apposed to repeal on from doing so ; but he would just ask the Minister
this grounds that by it jrelard would be divided froth-, what he had gained by it ?—(Hear, hear.) What was
her powerful aistei and expOsed to all the jealousies and • the result ? what the profit to the Minister ?—whO
diecnsetoes of arrival State.,Others .considered it would the profit to the country ?—(Hear, hear.) Was the
ba contrary tothe fundamental laWs'of the Constitution. Minister now more satisfied with the state of Ireland
Each of, these parties were necessarily guidedbytaeir se- than when he first took the reins of Government ?----
veral opinions in their attempt to get rid of-this question. (Hear, hear.) The consequence of their conduct had
If proper means • had been -adopted.- for the redress: of; been this, that they driven even moderate men into
t ese grievances,- and good measures , had been brought immoderate courses. Every one was rapidly becoming
fo ward, the-repeal agitation would. have totally disap- either on the one hand a repealer, or upon the other a
p ared. But the other party were placed . in' the posi- stern determined supporter of the Government. There
i 1
tn of those who must either completely crush repeal, were no neutral men—none of that moderate, middle
by violent means, or resort t 6 fraud awheie they could class, so healthy and useful in a community.—(Hear,
not use force. To crush repeal by violent means was hear.) But was the repeal question done for ? - Had it
oat of the 'qneetion. •' A Coercion Bill, if pissed into a exploded ? No ? There they stood in dogged obstinacy
is w, would only adjourn and 'not extinguish - the- ques- to the Government—in the worst position subjects could,
titan of repeal. - The Government thought it advisable possibly be in—sullenly writhing under feelings or
to trust to the means at their disposal, for . crushing rea- animosity and of vengeance.—(Hear, hear.) TheY
p nl. , 'During the fait aessiOnahe question of repeal was looked upon the laws with more of suspicion, with more
a owed;to make proOress. , They were all familiar with of doubt, with more of distrust and of dislike than ever•
t e meetings thattook.,place, and' tlie, feequent appeals- —(Hear, hear.) But had the Government obtained its
ade to the Government in that House, on the subject i immediate object ? No, they had not. They said they
a dit appeared, from: subsequent evidence, that .even would put down the receipt of money from the public,
t en the Geveinment'wereinotinsatentive to the course and the publication of a certain class of articles in the'
o ' events. There was the obvious course , open . newspapers, but had they done so ? Why, there was
t : them of -attacking the. meeting which : ,Mr., just the same organisation as ever—just the same rami-
-1
'Connell beta , announced-the
.general convention fications throughout the whole body of the; Irish people
ta, be held in Dublin for the purpose of devising a plan —just the same sentiments, seditious or not as they might
of renewed action, It was thought that the Govern- choose to call them, 'published in the - newspapers;
rent would-wait until that assembly had. been convened, and more money than ever collected for the repeat-
d had they done so, there would have been less rent.—(Hear, hear.) They had seen the declarations of
round of complaint, inasmuch as it would obviously the greater portion of the mayors and corporatiOns dew
1
ave been a direct violation of the
.. Act against con- various liberal municipalities of Ireland—and what law;
entions. The session, however, had not long closed guage did• they use to the Government ? - Again—did
,when the Government anticipated the meeting to be they think they had suppressed Mr. O'Connell or the
held in November, by attacking the first meeting, which ' Repeal Association ?—(Hear, hear.) -They
,had done
was to be held , near Dublin, namely, the meeting at neither, as those addresses to him from within the ea"
lontarf, and not content with that, immediately pro- pire, and from without the empire, pretty plainly proved•
eded to engage in the proeeeution which now foamed Did the Ministers never think how they, in fact, were
..
e'subject of immediate inquiry. Whether the Go- upholding Mr. O'Connell ? That man did not attain
et nment on that occasion were too' late or too soon— his high position by his own talents alone, bat by the'
hether they acted with hesitation or with prudence— wrongs, the folly, and the injustice of the Government
hether it were a wise course -to risk at so-late a period towards his country.—(Hear, hear.) He created not the ea
collision with an excited ;people, or 'whether it would revolution, but the revolution created him.--e(Hear, hear.)
not have been, amply sufficient for their purpose to have Though he (Mr. Wise) wished to continue to form an
instituted the prosecution without taking any notice of integral part of this country, he still felt that he was "
he meeting, it was not his intention at present to discuss. an Irishman, and it was from respecting their several
he act was sudden and unforeseen on the part of the Go- nationalities that England must hope to keep her whole
enfitirealaathollairit- arose-out-of -expressions which people in harmony and concord. It was .by
.allowing
ould not reasonably be viewed with apprehension when and consecrating this feeling of nationality—by non
ett considered the 'views of him from whom they fell. rishing Irish feeling, and respecting- Irish sentiments '
he
It did appear, strange that, this meeting, .the last of the that England must expect to keep her.faithful and true-
whole series of repeal meetings, should be thatone WhiCh —(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") They must convince
the Government had determined upon putting down. It the people of Ireland by every means- that they could,
pow appeared-that there had- beea all along a serious that they were disposed to make reparation and atone-
intention on the part of the Government to indict for a ment for the past, by giving to the Irish equal rights,
eonspiracy—that they
,aad watched every occurrence, and equal independence with the English for the future.
had by connivance and apparent tranquillity, gave con- Until they were thoroughly conainced'that there was t°
adence to those who were carrying on what was called be a real union—not a parchment' union-but a unioe
tt conspiracy, to *educe, still graveracts, for which they of rights, civil and religious--not as America was with:
might be afterwards calied-Up far punishment.--a(Hear, England, not as . Belgium was with Holland, bur
bear.) But, •he believed there was something deeper as Scotland was withe England—until this 10'
still than *bat .he had mentioned. ' his impression shown to be the moving principle, there could be.no con-
!was that there was a much more alarming conspiracy &knee, and, therefore, no real or lasting peace.-e(llenr' '
texiatingaintae minds of the Government, who thought, hear.) It was not enough for the Minister to tell the
lor affected ta,thialta that it was, not merely a combine- House he-would not call for coercion Bills—that he did
tion for the purpose of discussing repeal, but that there not desire to rule by military law—but they -must to
was a conspiracy actually - going on between certain Ireland by their acts as well as by their words -that Eng'
members of the Repeal 'Association and -the Govern- land had made mistakes in her conduct, ana that she was'
nientnf America.-A-person had-been put in cotnrounicaa willing to repair them—that she was anxious to begin i 6
tion with,Americae-•ohe who was'-to give information to new system—and that as wrongs could not produce anal;
the GovernMent that, treasonable correspondence had thing but resistance, they would now -try if kindness and
been carried on between Mr; Steele, on the one hand, justice -Could not lay the foandation of a solid and lasting
and the son of President Tyler, on the other. That union between the- two countries, contributing alike !a,
impression had been imprinted on the minds of the ' the peace and prosperity of both.—(Cheers.) The Right
people by the language which the AttoineyeGeneral Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for " A Select-
.
used at the commencement of. the trials. The bill Committee to inquire, in accordance
with the-prayer •°,l .
of indictment had been scarcely placed before the the petition presented 17th June, into-the facts connocteai
Court when the AtterneyeGeneaal_ announced that there with the formation of the Special Jury, in the case (-)
would be a second bill of' indictment, and. in deing. eq the Queen,atthe prosecution of the Attorney 1,,-General .
used lang,
_tinge Wiiieh was-WelPdigerving of the attention Daniel O'Connell and others." - .. •- .
a,
of the House... •The. lioaa and Learned 'Gentleman The motion was 'seconded by an Hole: Ganaeoataa
stated; on the Bth of Novel:sl;er,, when the first bill. was whose name we could not learn. • ' - - - •
t of
presented to the grand. jury, 'that hf. e • would undertake Lord ELIOT said, that upon hearing the first par
to establish as wicked aria Nile a conspiracy .as ever
the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech,- he fancied that he
the
disgraced this country." He (Mrolaryse),did I not know was under a delusipe, and that instead of being in
;0
whether that language was applicable to the first or to the 1 House of Commons on the 15th July, he was there .a
second bill. With regard to the mode in which that trial 1 February last, diicussing the question of the State trials'
,
was conducted he had a right to- record his opinion of 1 At that time the whole question was fully discussed by
the impressing made on his mind by it, and on the minds ; her Majesty's Ministers, and it was,. therefore, not fir i
Of the great body of the people of Ireland. - - Through all', coming at the present moment to enter into those au
the proceedings,of that trial, sweeping aside the technic ! jects again, He would confine himself to the' Pon'r 5 I
calities of the law altogether, there was an overwhelta- ' brought before the House by the Right Hon.-0600*V I
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