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London, England, 1850-07-02 00:00:00

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as when the Right Her. Gentl mien
r (Sir R. Peel),
-whose illness they all deplored, moved the vote
for the British Muieum. Ho hoped that the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be present bef the end of the :es-
Bien to tneve the vote.—(Hoar.)
Sir D. DUNDAS stated that arrangements were
Makin; to give increased accommodation to the public,
At the same time, more accommodation was given in
the reading-roona of the British Ilm.eum than in any
other public library abroad.
Sir lt. INGLIS stated that there was accommodation
now for 250 readers.
Mr. HENLEY remarked that there on,ht to be double
accommodation in the British Museum library, ns Lon-
don was so much larger than any other metropolis.
Sir H. VERNEY complained of the manner in which
the catalogue was being brought out at the British Mu,
scum.

Mr. HUME said that the catalogue, now making
Would not ho finished before the veer 1895.
Mr. F. MAULE cornidercd that there was no nactri
to "hom the public wai more indebted than to M. Pa-

Sir R. INGLIS praised Mr. Peoafzzi for bringing out
acataloguo on tho best plan.
Sir D. DUNDAS said, that no man i❑ England could
;do the duties of his office better than Mr. Panizzi. He
admitted it to be a very convenient thing to have a
-finding catalogue—(Elva,t, he ,r)—yet if they wished to
have a catalogue for all time, it would not be unreason-
able if it took up to the year 1895 before it was com-
pleted.

- Sir H. VERNEY wished to elicit the opinion of the
House as to the value of having a finding cltalogue.
let thNn, he said, have such r catalogue, at all events,
and have it in as short 11 time as possible.
Mr. EIVART wished that the reading room of the
British Museum should bo opened in the evening.
Mr. WYLD cornplaine:l that they could not get a
book published within the last two years. There were
40,000 volumes in the library which were not catalogued.
Five clerks could catal"g[lo 70 000 volumes in a year.

Sir D. DUNDAS said that was so fearful an ex-
periment in a place where there was such property, that
it was not one that could be undertaken without Serious
consideration. At the sama time it was under
consi-
deration.

Mr. EWART said it was his intention to move far a
return of applications for admission to the reading room
which were rt fased. There was a system of exclusion
of which he complained.
Mr. STANFORD complained of the restrictions ex-
isting upon the admission of persons to the library of
the Museum. He himself had once applied as a Master
of Arts of Cambridge University and a member of
Lincon's lon for a ticket of admission, and in reply was
refused the ticket, but referred to a list of persons with
which he was furnished. This was ono instance, and
doubtless there wore hundreds of other similar ones.
Unless the realing•room were too email to contain the
applicants, such restrictions were impolitic, and un-
worthy the liberal character of the institution.—(Hear.)
votes: The vote was agreed to, as were also the following
3,0501. for the PRpenso of procuring antiquities for
the Museum; 1,5001. for the National Gallery; 19,000/.
for the expense of the Ge3logical Survey of Great
Britain and Ireland; 096!„ for expenses of magnetic
observations at Toronto, Cape of Good Hope, and Van
Dieman's Land.
On the vote of 10,000/. for galleries of art in
Edinburgh,
Mr. BRIGHT objected to a vote of the public money
for Edinburgh, which was not granted t) other towns,
such as Leeds, Birminghara, or Manchester.
Mr. B. 0313ORNE moved as an amendment that the
vote be negatived.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defended
the rote on the ground that there aas an obvious dis-
tinction to be observed betwerm the three capital cities of
the empire—viz., London, Dublin, and Edinburgh—and
other towns; and he considered it by no means unfair
that the vote should be granted.
Atter some discussion, the vote was postponed.
The vote, 4,049/., eharg .5 and expanses of civil esta-
blishments in Bermuda, was agreed to.
Colonel SIBTHORY protested against the declara-
tion of his Bight Hon. Friend that he could not tell
when he would go on with the Committee of Supply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Noble Lord had already stated that on Thursday next he
would state the course of business.
The House then resumed,
The Linen Manufactures (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee.

TIIE EX:IMITION OF 1851.
Colonel SIBTLIORP gave notice of his intention to
move for a Select Committee to inquire into the plans for
the building to be appropriated to the 'exhibition in
Hyde Park; also that no further steps be taken by the
Commissioners until the report of the Select Committee
is laid on the table.
The House adjourned at thlf-palt Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 1.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
TH PARKS.
Lord BROUGHAM
a E sked if there was any objection
to lay before the House the plans for the alteration of
the Green-park and of Hyde-park. lie also complained
of the removal of nine elms fran Hyde-park. His
Noble Friend who had been recently at the head of that
department would have said with himself, in the words
of Virgil—
" Fortunatus et ille Dens qui Ilona agrestes,"
but it would appear that his successor adopted a different
reading, and said—
" Fortuuatos et ille 11:1os qui movit agrestes."
Some cf these elms had been pl rated for more than 200
years. He had a motion on the subjcct for to-morrow,
which he would postpone until Thursday, on the under-
standing that nothing should be done in the meantime.
The Marquis of 1-.N.N:.3DOWNE was understood to
assent to the production of the papers, but not to assent
to the proposition f tr. postponement.
Lord BROUGHAM. would then let his motion stand
for to-morrow.

PETITIONS.
Lord BEAUMONT presented several petitions in
favour of the extension of county courts.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions
in favour of the clause in the Factory Bill, of which he
had given notice, and if that clause were not carried he
should, on the motion fur the third reading, move that
it be read a third rime thet day six months.
PRIVILEGES OF PEERS.
The NOBLE DUKE then presented a petition from
Lord Henniker, an Irish Peer, who had been appointed
to serve the office of High Sheriff of the county of
Suffolk, which he considered was a breach of the privi-
lege of the Peerage, and praying fur the interference of
their Lordships.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the selection of
aheriffe was made made not by the Privy Council, but
by the judzes of the land, who alone could decide what
• was or was not the law, and on them rested the respon-
sibility of the selection. There had been several in-
stances in which Irish Peers hal served the office of
sheriff in Enelish counties.
Lord BROUGHAM thought that this was a matter
of privilege, and that, therefore, the House, and the
House alone, could deal with it.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that no Irish Peer had
aver been called on to act as sheriff in his own country,
and there was no reason why he should not be so called
upon if he could be called upon so to act in this country.
He considered it was contrary to the Act of Union to
call upon an Irish Peer so to act.
Lord CAMPBELL said that to all privileges of Peers
Irish Peers were strictly entitled, but not to privileges of
Parliament, and the exemption from serving the office of
sheriff was not a privilege of the Peerage, but a privi-
lege of Parliament, and therefore an Irish Peer, not a
Member of Parliament, was not exempt.
After a few words from Lard MONTEAGLE and the
Duke of RICHMOND, the petition was ordered to be laid
on the table.
POLICE IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
Their Lordships then resumed.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the order of
the day for the House going into
Committe on the
above Bill.
Their Lordships accordingly went into Committee,
the Earl of SHAFTESBURY in the chair.
Lord STANLEY called their Lordships' attention to
the 14th line of the first clause. The effect of the pro-
vision therein contained would be to disfranchise the
class of voters; who held lands on leases of twenty years
of the value of 10/. above all the charges upon them.
Although he was tot disposed to press his suggestion to
a division, he would recommend the omission of the
Words, in the clause in question, ",i,n virtue of any qua.
suggested
itfication not requiring occupation.
The Earl of CARLISLE opposed thit
that
amendment. The principle of the present
the voter's claims to the frrnchiseshould
not
upon himself, but that the sole test of his qualification
should be the rating alone.—(Hear)
After a short discussion, in which Earl Grey. thel
Earl of Glengall, Lord Redesdale, and other Noble
Lords
Nhe
Lords took part, the proposition, not having been pressed,
was understood to have dropped.
The Earl ST. GERMANS then came forward to move
the amendment, of which he had given notice, in clause
1, page 2, line 5, to substitute the word " twelve
the word " eight." The county franchise in Ireland
depended entirely on the value of the house. The value
of the lands was not at all taken in connexion with it.
He contended, therefore, if by adopting his amendment
they gave a stimulus to landlords to improve the dwell-
ings of their tenantry, that a very material social, mo-
ral, and physical advantage would be conferred on the
peasantry. He contended also, from referring to the
late census, that the effect of his proposition would not
be to narrow the constituency of Ireland. He could not,
he confessed, vote in favour of the proposition of his
Noble Friend near him (the Earl of Desart) because
that point had already been amply discussed and decided
fin the House of Commons. It was desirable that the
ranchise in Ireland should no longer depend on the con-
flicting oaths of interested parties—(Hear, hear)—but
that the right of voting might be ascertained by the
_e amount to which a party was rated to a certain time.
•!ci concluded by moving the amendment of which he
nad given notice.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he thought it
ment
was his duty with respect to the other House of Parlia-
that , and the groat mass of information conveyed to
Rouse on 'he present subject, arad the deliberations
which it had given the question in all its bearings--he
repeated felt itatto be his duty to offer the Bill to their
Lo
whenrcl Ls
_porebeent stood. He acknoeledged,
of givinn"g7nrurnal
erZiimi, le Friea's arguments in favour
and eottifort,bie nt to the ereetkn of more solid
he was led awn at first
for the peasantry of Ireland,
;_ex fnfirtshter
presentations,bye
consideration
rpaeteiioonu stuheesys of his re-
Onit would be
clef' had found
au Pathan t to adroit that as a test, as &be

effect of it in Ireland would be to exclude a most re-
spectable class of voters. To separate the value of the
house from the value of the laud would be to intre-
duce a rule which he did not think it would bo
advisable to adopt. He di i not carry his objection
so far as to :ay, if tha Noble Earl should induce their
Lordships to ad.Lpt the amendeeent, that the 8/. house
qualification might not be added to the 12/. occupancy.
The olject whi,.h they ought to have in view should he
a real, effectual representation of opinion in Ireland. Jr
the; did not make up their minds to go to that extent
they heal better not proceed with the Bill at all. Nay,
he believed it would be better in such a cave to get rid of
representation altogether. An ineffectual representa-
tion—one that did not represent opinion, was, in most
respects, mere mischievous than no representation.
Universal suffrage he was far from approving, because
it repreeenti d every delusion, every feeling, every pas-
sion, and was not a real representation of the mind, but
of something that way not the mind of the electors. Bad
as he b!lieved despotism, with its ne representation, to
he, there was something worse, and that was a nominal
instead cf a real representation. All recent experience
had, he thought, shown the felly of a representation that
was nothing bat nominal. He wished to see the fran-
chise evended in Ireland to the great body of the com-
munity, and not cenfined to any body of gentlemen, or
any particular class of' electors. lie trusta], therefore,
if their Lardships in any way altered the Bill, that they
would not alter it to that extent which would deprive
the people of Ireland of a full and fair represen'ative
system. He was inclieel to think the proposed amend-
ment went toe far, and ehould like to see the measure
returned to the Commons in a shape in which they c d
entertain it.

After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW, who
suggested to the Noble Lord to postpone his amend-
ment till the bringing up of the report, so as tho discus-,
sion on the other amendment might now be taken,
Lord MON I'EAGLE approved of no 8/, house
fication. He bad had some experience of elections in
Ireland, ar.d thought that a 12/ qualification would bo
bettor than one of 81. He hoped that they would fix
that amount of qualification which they thought right and
proper in itself, without any reference to coming to other
terms with the House of Commons on the subject.
The Duke of LEINSTER was understood to say that
he cou!d_not support the amendment for a 15/. qualitica-
tioo.

The Earl ST. GERMANS said he was quite willing.
to postpone hi 3 amendmont.

Lord STANLEY said that the Noble Lord on the
cross benches Lad alluded to the present mode of ra.:ing
under the poor-law valuation. From all the informa-
tion he had obtained on that point he 131ievel that that
valuation was extremely different in different counties,
and thowgh well adapted for the levying of a poundage
rate, was quite unsuited for being Leath., the basis of the
franchise. Though not prepared with any amendment
he should lilt" to hear the Noble Marquis state whether
any meaiure wad contemplated for the purpose of
hr;ing a pron,r valuation.
Earl FITZWILLIA.II said it might be true that
there was a difference in the mode of valuation in dif
ferent coantiea, or even betwe,,n some unions in the
same couWy in Ireland, but in England the same diffi-
culty existed.
Lord STANLEY said that in England the rent, and
not the rating, was taken.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM admitted that, but reminded
the Noble Lord that rents varied is different towns,
and that a 101. house in one town was occupied by a
very different sort of parson from the tenant of a 10/.
house in another town.

The Earl of CARLISLE said, though he admitted
they hnsl not a perfect basis for the franchise, yet they
had to choose betwee❑ the present measure and the ano-
malous and disgraceful state of things that at present
existed. The tenement valuation of Mr. Griffith was
now bring carried on. In a year or two it would be in
force in six of the largest counties in Ireland, and would
serve as the basis of the poor-law valuation, as well as of
the franchise. In every ether county the grand jury
might apply to the Llrd-Lieutenant to have th© valua-
tion extended to them. Looking at the trickery, frauds,
perjuries, and conflicting decisions cf the present sys-
tem, he thou?ht it,would be wiser to effect an immediate
cure of that vicious system than to delay the remedy
until they got a complete and satisfactory basis on which
to rest the franchise.

Lord MONTEAGLE thought if they could not at
present get a perfect system of valuation, they ought to
adopt some checks by which frauds would be prevented.
After a few words from the Earl of Weexeow and the
Marquis of LANSDOWNE, the amendment was understood
to be withdrawn.
Lord DESART said he hal assented to the second
reading of the Bill with considerable hesitation, because
he was afraid that it would be impossible at a subsequent
stage to introduce any arreendments which should ob-
viate the dangers and difficulties which must necessarily
result from its adoption. His objection to the Bill re-
mained unchanged, particularly upon the amount fixed
upon for the qualification; and he asked their Lordships
to consider whether it was not expedient t adopt a
larger sum than that fixed upon by the other House.
The sum which be inte.uded to propose was 151.; and if
any lower amount should be determined upon, he should
feel it his duty to give the further stages of the Bill
every opposition in his power. The Bill would give a
great preponderance to town over country
voters. Believing that a 151. rating would
be far more likely to express the real
opinion of the country than a rating of 81., he ventured
to propose the amendment to the consideration of their
Lord .hips. The Government were running a great risk
in trying this new experiment in Ireland. In a country
of all others the most liable to agitation they were
fixing a proportion far beyond the franchise granted to
other parts of the kingdom, and that without any rea-
son whatever. lie thought the lowest sum that could
be fixed upon for the franchise, consistent with safety,
was 15/., and it was not without considerable hesitation
that he had made up his mind to propose so small a sum,
but on that he and the friends with whom he acted
would take their stand, and he asked their Lordships not
to take this gigantic stride towards universal suffrage,
from which it would be impossible to recede—(Hear)
—whereas if the 15/. franchise did not operate bene-
ficially it might easily be extended.—(Hear.) He cons
sidered the present measure altogether uncalled for, not
one single petition having been presented to their Lord-
ships on the subject.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of ORMONDE was understood to ex-
press himself in favour of a 12/. franchise, which would
increase the number of voters very considerably.
The Bishop of DOWN did not consider the apprehen-
sions ene stained by many persons with respect to the
81. franchise well founded, and had obtained such returns
as would enable him to give his conscientious vote in
favour of the measure. An 81. suffrage would not give
anything like the universal suffrage apprehended by
some Noble Lords. In five electoral divisions, he found
the number of persons rated 52,000, and of that number
only 17,400 would be enfranchised by the 8/. clause.
That was only one-third of the whole number. Now
was it to be supposed that the 34,000 who would remain
unenfranchised were incapable of being entrusted with
it?—(Hear, hear, front the Opposition benches.) Surely
their L )rdships did not intend to say that out of 52,000
ratepayers, 34,000 were incapable of exercising the
elective franchise.— (Renewed cheering.) Now, with
regard to the respectability of the parties, helheld in his
hand a letter written by a most respectable and intelli-
gent agent, who stated that he had looked over the
rating between 81 and 9/., and, as far its he knew,
almost all the parties were tenants of head landlords,
each holding from 10 to 20 acres of land. Ile believed
that there would not be one solitary instance of a cottier
tenant becoming enfranchised under the Bill. In the
county of Down, the persons rated at Si. were intelligent
and respectable persons. (Laught -r.) Much anxiety
prevailed in Ireland on this subject, and he was con-
vinced that an increase of the 81. franchise would destroy
the value of the measure.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY admitted that it was right that Ire-
land should be placed on full equality with England with
regard to the franchise; but when the Right Rev. Pre-
late advocated so small an amount, he must know little
or nothing of the English system. In England it was
requisite that every person having a lease should have,
over and above all rents and charges, an actual profit of
at least 20/. for a lease in perpetuity, and a profit of 501.
with regard to a lease for 20 years. With regard to
those persons who held as tenants at will, or occupied
from year to year, it was requisite that their possession
should not be of value to be rated at 81., but of value to
be rated at 501. He did not contend that in Ireland the
amount of value should be the same as in England, but
that it ought to be such as to insure intelligence, respec-
tability, and independence in the voter.--(Hear.) The
Right Rev. Prelate had not given names; nor had he
mentioned the unions of which he spoke. Highly as he
(Lord Stanley) respected the moral character of the
people of the north of Ireland, he was inclined to doubt
the assertion that every person rated at 81. per annum
was of that entire respectability insisted upon by the
Right Rev. Prelate.
The Bishop of DOWN named the unions, which
we understood to be five in number, and which we un-
derstood were Newtownards, Belfast, Coleraine, and two
others in the Counties of Down and Antrim.
Lord STANLEY resumed—The first thing that
strtsc
the land s
c him was in reference to the Right Rev. Prelate's
ctcalculations.ns. It appeared to him, either that the havevalua-
tion beenabad
o ae
qualityex cee. F
d i ng,l)yr
whendefective,
thei
their
or thtat
wa
Lord-
ships were told that the great majority of those rated
at 81. occupied fifteenthose or twenty acres of land, they must
ere
the
on a less scale than in
othersup
or that the valuation was grossly
therefore,t that the valuation
dida d
not notoriously
accurately
unfair, and
represent enttitemberTohf
epeßrisohnts
Ron
ought to exercise the right of ve
Prelate had told them if they adopted. 'rho
valuation they;
would only have for these five unions a
constituent of
17,000. The Right Rev. Prelate had asked the House
if they believed that out of the whole number of
ratepayers in those unions two-thirds e
(ford were
Stanley)
tleyto)
exercise the franchise? In reply, he
majorityf
r form
a nasserted that he believed two thirds of that class
were utterly unfit to exercise the franchise—
that is, to exercise it independently—em, from
the control of their landlords, or apart from the influence.
of persons in Ireland who occupied a rack-
of agitators.—(Hear, hear.) bietleiedveaederot,:siedat
rent were not persons out of which they
independent constituency.—(Hem) Taking the pope_
had
lation and the statement of the Nuble Lord, if you a
qualification of 151. it would
give a
constituency of
of
180,000, which divided among 32 counties Ireland, the
ksng-
average would be 5,600 for each county. This average
for Ireland would be higher than the average for
land end Scotland; and therefore it could hardly be said,
if the 151. franchise were adopted, that the franchise
would be narrowed too much. If they went lower he
would ask. them to see the effect it would have on the
elections. If they adopted the lower qualification it
would afford a constituency of 335,000, which vvonldgivs;
an average of between 10,000 and 11,000 voters for each
counte. Out of the whole number, nearly two-thirds of
the whole constituency would be rated below 201. In