The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-13 00:00:00

ciplo was sound, and the demand just, hat those on

whom rates were levied should

have a voice

in the expenditure of their money. For those reasons
he should support the second reading if the Bill, hoping
the Bill itself would be speedily carried Wore a
Committee up stairs.
Sir IL PEEL remarked that having be ea a member
of the Committe e which sat in 1837, and paid a good
deal of attention to this subject, ho was anxious to say a
sv words upon it. Ile should not give his vote to-day
from any impression that tie magistracy of this country
had abuse 1 the power reposed in them, but from
a conviction that there ss as a defect in the constitution
of that body. Yesterday ho presented a pet' tion on the
subject cf this Bill from a body that was highly calcu-
lated to exercise an unprejudiced and dispassionate judg-
ment in the matter. It nas from the board of guardians
of the district with which he was immediately connected.
Ic was unanimously agreed to by the board, and con-
curred in by innst of the magistrates who gene-
rally came contact with the guardians. It
prayed for tl:e establishment of some concurrent control

w;th the magistracy,-and looking at the opinion-which
prevailed out of doors relative to the duties performed, and
the control exercised by a body of gentlemen having
n
strength amongst them based upon the representativeo
principle, but were appointedewearbesoalum-te.lyand uncondition-
sintrate the he h would
uncondition-
ally by the Crown—if h
not far one moment objet to anYthingi
inquiry. If an inquiry were refused, the magistracys an of
would be placed in a very invidiuus position, a
their duties would become more irksome and difficult,
and they ought, therefore, to acquiesce rather than dis-
sent to any proposal for calmly and dispassionately con-
sidering their position, and the manner in which their
constitution operated upon the public purse. In alcord-
once, therefore, with the wish e f his constituente, he
was inclie ed to support the second reeling of this
Bill; thus approving of its principle, but reserving to
himself the right of considering important modifications
when it reached the Committee. There ought to be
some concurrent control with the magistracy upon the
ptiociple of representation, and without implying the
le, s% suspicion of the fidelity and care with which the
nelgistrecy of this country had hitherto performed their
function of managers of the county-rate expenditure,
he .hould vote for the second readirg of the Bilk.—(Hear.)
Mr. R. PALMER could assure the Right ion. Baro-
net who had just sat down that the magistracy of the
county to which he belonged had no objection to the
principle of repro sentative control, but he, with others,
doubted whether the provisions of the Bill were practi-
cable, and on that account be thought it was useless to
enter a discussion upon it. It would be much better to
refer the whole question to a Committee ; but after the
Expression of an opinion against that course from such
high authorities as they had heard to-day, ho would
suggest that the amendment should be modified, so as to
meet the views of the sipporters of the Bill.
Mr. HENLEY did not object to the principle of
representative control, but he should be glad to know to
wh,ct extent that control was to Let carried. The Bight

Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment seemed to place no limit to that control; he
appeared to be absolutely for county financial bcards.
Sir G. GREY obseived that his opinion was that those
boards ought te - be based upon the representative
principle.
Mr. HENLEY said that did not dispose of his objection
as to the extent to which the control was to be carried.
No man, therefore, could say what was the principle or
what was not, and it was for that reason that he rather
inclined to the amendment. When the Right Hoe.
Baronet the Member for Ripon, on talking cf the reduc-
tions which had been made in his county, had not stated
whCther expenses relating to bridges and gaole, and such
permanent buildings, had been incurred 'before or atter
the reductions be talked cf. Again, the Bill which
was to be introduced confsrred the very responsible
office of auditors upon the same persons with whom it
now found fault. He should vote with his Hon. Friend
if he pressed it to a division.
Sir G. STRICKLAND wished to set right the asser-
tion cf the Honourable Member for Droitwich, that
this was a Lancashire question—ho knew there was a
very general feeling in favour of the Bill in many coun-
ties of England. In the county in which he resided
(Yorkshire), no subject had excited so much interest as
this question cf control over local expenditure.— (He at)
A worthless and extravagant expenditure had been gone
into for building a great wall round the gaol, which was
more fitted to resist a Danish invasion than to serve any
useful purpose at the present day. lie should certainly
support the second reading.
Mr. DENISON had presented the greatest number
of petitions, perhaps, that had been presented to the
House from one district except Lancashire—namely, from
the West Riding of Yorkshire, and he had examined all
those petitions carefully, but though they prayed for the
establishment of county boards they did not say a word
in favour of this Bill. He had never heard
a Bill so cordially pulled to pieces on all
sides of the House as this had been.
No other Bill had been so much pulled to pieces as this,
and he did not think that any Member competent to
express a worthy opinion would give his vate for any
one of its clauses.—(Hear, hear.) If it could be shown
that the principle of popular representation could be
mixed up with the usual offices of the magistracy, no
doubt the Bill would be useful, but of that he had a ery
great doubt. It was unquestionable that the county rates
hadof late years pressed very heavily upon the rate-pay err.
But to what was this owing? Why, to the building
and improvement of prisons, and thus the very outlay
itself had been instrumental in saving expense at future
times.—(Hear, hear.) The legislative functions, if he
might so term them, of the magistracy were plainly ir-
reconcileable with the action of a popular influence.—
(Ilea-, hear.) Nowhere had there hem so great an ex-
penditure for these purposes as in Lancashire and the
West Riding of Yorkshire. In the latter district
ten years ago the expenditure was 49,0001.
a year; within the last two years it had been
respectively 102,030/. and 93,0001.; yet this outlay had
already been productive of great advantage, and he be-
lieved that if the Bill could be cleared of its faulty qua-
lities it would be very useful, and believing that it
might, he a hould vote for the second reading.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY did not see why the Govern-
ment should impose upon the country fifty-two county
boards, and he thought it would be fir better for the
Government t) provide for any excess of expenditure
rather than inteife:e with the present principle of the
county migistracy.
Mr. 1. GIBSON said that lie wisl el particularly to
impress upon the House what they were asking fur.'
Those who advocated the Bill only desired that they
should adopt the principle of giving the ratepayers the
power of controlling the expenditure of the county rate.
He did not wish to enter into the details of the Bil 1; all
he desired was that the principle should be affirmed, for
the derails would be submitted to a competent tribunal,
where every objection to them might be settled. He did
trust, therefore, that the Hon Baronet who opposed the
Bill would not divide the House.
Sir 11. HALFORD said, that having introduced a
measure very analagous to this, he might, he trusted, be
xemed for detaining the House fur a moment, to say
that, however he might disapprove of some of the de-
talla, he should vote for the Bill.
Sir JOHN PAKINGTON was gla 1 to find himself
in a very different position to that in which he was placed
last year. Now he was supported on all sides of the
House, yet Nuking if he divided he might be in a mi-
nority, he should refrain, in the hope of amending the
Bill in Committee. Ile should therefore withdraw his
amendment.
Mr. M. GIBSON then moved for the appointment of
a Select Committee.
PUBLIC LIBRARIES AND MUSEUMS. _ _

Mr. EWART, in moving the second reading of this
Bill, said the object of it w as to give a permissive power
to tow n-councils to levy a small rate fur the establish-
ment of public libraries and museums. The power
was exclusively permissive, and was founded on
the same principle as that contained in the Bill
which was brought in four 3 eers ago to enable town-
councils to establish museums, as well as on the recom-
mendation of a Select Committee, and the express wishes
of the iuhabitants of several of the largest towns in the
kingdom. The Bill would afford means cf instruction
and improvement to the people by supplying
aerie with books, and works cf art, and on that
ground he would press the second reading,
hoping that no objections, except those of detail, would
be offered to the measure.
Colonel SIBPHORP questioned whether it was
legal or in conformity with the rules cf the House to
introduce a Bill levying a general tax on the subject
without submittir g it, in the first instance, to a Commit-
tee of the whole Home. He thought the country was not
in a position to bear farther taxation, and instead of
the people requiring food for the mind, he considered
they wanted a little more food for the body.—(A.
laugh.) He did not see how the object of the Bill could
be carried out by means of a rate of a half!. enny in
the pound, unless they could erect museums
and reading-rooms by the influence of a magic
wand, as they did in the theatres.—(A laugh.)
There was another objection he had to this Bill, and that
was the manner in which the funds were to be raised for
the building cf these libraries. He was not averse to the
honest recreation of the people, but there was no ne-
cessity for an Act of Parliament to accomplish that ob-
ject; and as it was unconstitutional for a private
Member to introduce a Bill for levying a tax upon the
people he should certainly oppose the Bill.
Sir G. GREY did not apprehend that there was any-
thing unconstitutional involved in this Bill, as the cor-
porate bodies who would have to carry out its provi-
sions already possessed the power of levying the rates.
Colonel SIBTHORP said, under these circumstances
he should move, as an amendment, that the Bill be read
a second time this day six months.
Mr. BUCK had no objection to tha establishment
of libraries in large towns, but as the provisions of the Bill
would very materially affect the lanc'el interest, who
were already too heavily burdened, he should give it
his most decided opposition. Very few of the
large towns, certainly few of the boroughs of
this country, were aware of the existence of
this Bill, and ho was not surprised at
reading this morning that a;certain town-council in the
west if England expressed some surprise that this Bill
had been introduced. The local rates in the large
towns of the west of England bad reached no loss than
4s. 6d. in the pound, and no sentimental desire to afford
recreation and amusement to the masses ought to be
t:Llcen by the House as a justification for an addition to
these rates.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. BROTHERTON confessed that he was mach
surprised at the speech of the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down. In the first place, the Bill
was only permissive, while the rate could only ex-
tend to a halfpenny in the pound, and when he
remembered the vast influence which public
lib: aries had upon the moral instruction of the people,
he was really astonished that any Hon. Mewlor could
be bold enough to oppose the Bill. He denied the assertion
that this Bill was, comparat'vely speaking, unknown in
the large towns; on the contrary, be believed it was most
extensively known and equally approved of throughout
the country. The cheapest and best police they could
have was public institutions for the instruction of the
peop'e, and thenfore he contended that both in a com-
mercial and political point of view this Bill ought to be
adopted.— (Cheel s.)
Mr. GOULBURN said the fact that libraries had
bean established in nearly every large town in the
country was a sufficient proof that there was no neces-
sity for a Bill of this nature. He could not agree with
those who thought they had affirmed the principle
of this Bill when they passed the Museum Bill, nor
could ho bring himself to believe that it was an expedient
to tax the poorer classes for the benefit of the middle
class.--(flear, hear.) If this Bill passed, a portion of
the funds would be devoted to the purchase of news-
.

papers, and in point of fact those libraries would be
established for the gratuitous benefit of those who had
the taste and leisure to read periodical publications.
—(Hear, hear.) But there was another question
which ought to be raised if this Bill passed,
and that was who should have the authority of
selecting the books to be deposited in these libraries?
So long as the establishment of these institutions were
left to voluntary exertions there could be no objec-
tion to the reception cf any description of books
that had a moral tendency, but the case was altered
when these libraries came to be founded under the
sanction of the Legislature. In fact the Bill was
objectionale in many other respects, and ho should

vote for the amendment.—(Hear,- hear.)
Mr. BERNAL would nut go into the abstract merits
of the Bill, or atempt to speculate upon its moral re-
sults, but ho objec;ed to it on the ground that they
Lad no right to give power to a town-council to levy a
rate of even a halfpenny in the pound, for carrying
out the objects contemplated by the Bill. However noble
the object of promoting the moral instruction and intel-
lectual improvement of the people might be, it could not
justify the levying of a tax, as proposed by this Bill,
since the power (,f lev3 ing was not confined to particul4r
amount:, but was unlimited. He could support no sueb
species of legislation, however laudable its object might
Le, and be should chcidedly oppose the second reading
of the Bill.

Mr. HUME said that there could be no doult that
the right of taxing the ratt payers for the establishment
of libraries ought not to be granted without great
caution, To the principle of the Bill he cordially agreed.
Ho thought that what was to be inquired into was,
the best way of effecting the object. There were
some objections to the method proposed in the Bill.
Ile should recommend to the promoters of this Bill to
study the method laid down by a Bill passed by this
House, to enable towns to avail themselves of donations
to light their streets without going to the expense of an
Act cf Parliament:. He thought that nothing could be
cf greater importance than that working men should
be made to read; reading led to reflection, and that would
prevent many ill-advised actions to which they were now
prone. He should give his cordial support to the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. HAMILTON,
Lord G. MANNERS wished to know why churches,

hospitals, and schools, should not have the same benefits
as museums and public libraries. No man could give a
heartier asset to the principle of the. Bill than he did;
but in these days the public looked with grout
suspicion upon anything which threatened to impose an
increased amount of local taxation. Thorn were cllsscs
in the country, such as agricultural labourers, whose
wages had been reduced by the late legislative enaet-
aents, who would have t.) pay increased rates and
would not be able to take advantage of the librz,
ries which it proposed to establish. He thought
that if this Bill wero passed a revision of the
law of mortmain would Ease a fair claim fir the
attention of the Lx gislature.

After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORP,
Mr. LAI3OUCHERE said he was very much inclined
to take the same view of the subject as the Hon. Member
for Montrose had done. He thought that Hon. Gentle-
man quite misunderstood the motion. Some of them
thought that the managers would either select such
books as were either of mere utility in a business point
of view, or such as were merely adapted for amusement.
He did net think that any such evil was likely to arise,
and he did then fare vote for the second reading.-
-(Herr, hoar.) Yet, while allowing that, he
thought that the Bill required very considerable altera-
tion, but thinking that those alterations might be easily
made in Committee, he should therefore affirm the
principle of the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Mr. W. MILES had many objections to the Bill, and
he felt that the opinion of his Hon and Gallant Friend the
Member for Lincoln was well worthy of notice. The
result would be in his opinion to make the rates much
heavier than they were already, and that was needless.
That his objection was not groundless was evident from
the 31 clause, which gave a power to secure the ex-
penses for the purchase of land, and the erection of
buildings was secured on the borough rate. Now those
expenses were to be levied without the consent of the
rate-payers, and thin, in his opinion, was fatal to the Bill.
Mr. BRIGHT was sorry to see that any opposition to
this Bill was grounded on a misappreheaaion, when it
was evident that expenses for the house and land only
was levied on the borough rates. It should be remem-
bered that the books and the necessary furniture, and the
objects for the museum were to be furnished by volun-
tary contributions. It should also be recollected that
the borough rate was to he limited to a halfpenny in the
pound.—(f tear, hear.) Ile should be ashamed of him-
self and of the House, if there was any difference with
respect to the object of this Bill. Believing that such
would be the case, he should certainly vote for the
second reading of the Bill.—(Cetera.)
Mr. SPOONER said it appeared from the statement of
the Hon. Gentleman that the rate was only fur the
construction cf buildings and for furniture, but he thought
the best furniture of a library was its books. It would be
DO use to establish public libraries if the Ten Hours
Bill was not carried out and factory labourers were pre-
vented availing themselves of such institutions. He ob-
jected to the principle of taxing a whole community far
objects by which only a few would be benefitted, and he
should then f ire support the amendment.
Mr. SLANEY thought rio good objection could be
made to the • principle of the Bill. Instead of such
libraries entailing a great expense upon communities,
they would hale the effect of keeping the lower classes
from the public-house and from dissolute amusements,
and by diminishing crime entail leas expense upon the
country.
Mr. R. PALMER agreed with the principle that we
ought to have public libraries in all large towns; but
the principle of this Bill was that of taxation.—(Hear,
hear.) It was apparent that it had been intro-
duced for ulterior objects, which might be car-
, ried into effect by amendments proposed in Committee.
such, fur instaece, as purchasing books, curiositiee, and
works of art, and Erecting lecture-rooms, which were
beside the cbj'ct of the Bill, which was simply to
erect buildings, in the hope that some charitable persons
would fill them with books or curiosities. He had al-
ways been opposed to the compulsory as against the
voluntary principle in matt Ts of education, and should
'eel it his duty to go to a division if the Hon. Member
pressed the second reading cf the Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS said thu only power given to the town
councils by the Bill was, the power to build certain
empty houses, with a potentiality to receive boeks.—
(Laughter.) That being so, and having an objection to
a compulsory rate for the purposes of this Bill, he would
oppose its second reading.
Mr. HEYWOOD believing that the measure would
be received as a boon by the working classes in Man-
chester and other large towns throughout the kingdom,
was disposed to support the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. WYLD bore testimony to what he had seen in
the way of improved morals and manners among the
people in towns where mechanics' institutions hied been
established, and inasmuch as this Bill had for its object
the promotion of an object kindred to that of Mechanics'
Institutions, he would support the Bill.
Mr. PiiILIP HOWARD objected to imposing upon
the poor and unlettered people of large towns additional
taxation, which was contemplated by this Bill, and he
would, therefore, give it his steady opposition.
Mr. OSWALD also expressed his intention of voting
against the Bill, being favourable to a voluntary rather
than a compulsory education of the people.
Mr. EWART briefly replied.
After some observations from Sir J. Graham, Mr.
Muntz, Sir George Grey, Mr. Law, and Mr. Greenall,
strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared:—
For the second reading ... ... 118
Against it ... 101
Majority for the second reading... --17
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be conatuittel.

Tte other orders of the day were then diipsed of, an,
The House adjourned at Five minutes Lefore Six.

PORTUGAL.
Advices have been received from Lisbon of the 2d.
The Viscount Santa Marthar, who had been offered
the command of the Lisbon district, has declined to
accept it, and has declared his intention to oppose the
Government of the Count de Thomar.