The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-26 00:00:00

.EVENING,

JUNE . 26, 1850,

claim. :I cats-attaeh-no value-whatever to a claim-preferred-
ander such circumstances, by whomsoever put forward or
supported. Such a claim has no foundation whatever -it
bas no foundation upon right or order, and must be entirely
and utterly rejected. The value of the provision of Mr.
Wyse lies in effectually closing the door against such a de-
mand, and so preventing a renewal of the discussion, and
causing, perhaps, the interruption of our friendly relations
with Greece after the whole matter had been ,settled.--...
(Hear.) But her Majesty's Government are, instead of that
provision in the convention, willing to accept- of the good
offices of the Government of France, which, from the posi-
tion in which France now stands in towards Greece, are sure
to prove successful. Francothereforeirill advise the King of
Greece not to make such claims, and with that advice we
will remain satisfied. Thus has terminated all our differ-

ences with Greece in respect to those matters. (Loud
cheers.) I- believe, if it had not been for the discussion
which was coming on in the French Chamber of peculiar
importance, it was the intention of the represen-
tative of Fiance to.be pre-sent at this debate. Now, Sir, hav-
ing said so•much on•the affairs of Greece, which I have taken
first in order, there still remains the question of the far-famed
islands of Sapienza and Cervi.—( Hear, hear.) As regards
these i4ands, my Opinion is most Clear and definite—(Cheers)
—and I am supported in that opinion—as has been stated in
the course of this debate—by my predecessor in office, Lord
Aberdeen. (Cheers.) The case is simply this. There are
certain islands on the coast of Gieece, opposite the coasts of
the Morea.and Albania, which originally belonged to Venice,
but according to the terms of treaty entered into between
Austria and the Porte, soma of these islands were erected into

a separate state, and placed under the suzerain of the
Porte, and under the protection of Russia. In 1800
_ .

the constitution was formed, and in 1894, in ex-

ecution of the terms of this constitution, the 'islands
were formed into municipal districts; the stnaller
islands were then allotted to the larger islands, and accord-
ing to the terms of a public decree, which I cannot but
believe was made known to Russia and the Porte, Sapienza
was annexed to Zante and Cervi to the island of Cerigo.
. .

These islands have been considered by the British as
belonging to England, and it is well known that British

officer's, On taking in water at Cerigo, are in the habit of
going to Cervi. Be this as it may, however, the limits of
Greece were specifically laid down by the protocol of 1830.

With the exception of some differences abOut the northern
frontier, the whole frontier of Greece was settled by the,

,rotocol of 1830. The limits of the frontier were specified'

by a line drawn on the map, but the islands were desig-
nated by name in the protocol, and it was well known and
arranged that in these islands were not included Cervi—still
less Sapienza, and therefore it was impossible to suppose
that either was included in the kingdom of Greece. If the
Greek Government have taken possession of the lonian
State, it was not the British Government who took
possession.—(Hear, hear.) That question, however, is not
settled by cur demand, but still remains to be settled with
the other powers. • A boat conveying :convicts from
Cerigo was driven on shore on the island of Cervi, where
the prisoners were liberated by officers of the Greek Go-
vernment, who acted as if it were their own territory.
It was necessary to call for answer to this outrage, and if no
answer were given, then it was necessary to take possession
of the island, which was effected by a boat's crew, and was
not a matter in which the employment of any great force
was rendered necessary.—(Hear, hear.) And now, Sir,
having disposed of matters relating to Greece, I have now to
enter on the wider range—(Cheers)—taken last night by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Gra-
ham).—(Cheers.) I think the Right Hon. Baronet took a
proper view of the question before the House, for the resolu-
tion does not confine itself to any one act of the Government
in relation to its foreign policy, but opens a consideration of
all the topics to which the Right Hon, Baronet alluded. I
agree with some of those Hon. Members who have spoken
in the course of this debate, that the resolution does not in-
volve the expression of an entire approval of all we have
done, for it could hardly be expected that men acting on
different information, entertaining: different views, and not
knowing the grounds on which he acted, should be asked
and expected to approve of every particular act, but I agree
that the Right Hon. Baronet took the right view of the larger
question. The Right Hon. Baronet must allow me to set him
right on the first point with which he started. He stated
that, when we were both members of Earl Grey's Admini-
stration, he concurred in the foreign policy which I, as its
organ, adopted, and instanced this concurrence by a refe-
rence to the separation of Belgium from Holland. In
doing so, the Right Honourable Baronet did full justice to
the views which actuated the Government in the part they,
took for the purpose of effecting this separation, which di-
rectly infringed the treaty of Vienna. But, he said, this was
a very different case, for every step throughout the negotia-
tion was taken with the concurrence of the five powers.
He said he had also concurred in some other things which
were done, and which were beyond the sphere of negotiation
—the siege of Antwerp and our embargo on the Dutch
ships, were these measures taken with the concurrence of the
five other powers—(Cheers)—were they of that description
which would render our friendly relations with other coun-
tries less disturbed ? (Cheers) He must recollect that
Austria, Prussia, and Russia dissented from our views, and
for a time withdrew from the conference —(Cheers. ) He
must recollect that the presence of the Prussian army ren-
dered it necessary to the French to send a large force to
Antwerp. The• Right Hon. Baronet has, therefore, made a
mistake. I know that when persons are out of office their
memories are not always tenacious on matters which oc-
curred when they were in power—(Cheers and laughter)—
but a mistake there was, and one, too, of some importance,
as bearing on the particular question. I think with the
Right Honourable Baronet that this was s wise determina-
tion on the part of the Government I think that the
beneficial arrangement of 1815, by which a power of some
consideration was formed in Europe to interpose between
France on one side and Germany on the other, was rendered
by the course of events of a contrary nature. The two
people of Germany and Holland could not coalesce, and if
their union had been forced upon them, it doubtless could not
have been effected without a war, and even if effected, would
not have lasted, but would have laid the foundation of
future inevitable destruction.—(Loud cheers.) We, how-
ever, carried our opinion on this point. It is needless to
deny, at this time of day, that it was not with the, will of
the three powers to which I have alluded, who would have
been glad to have seen the union enforced. These nations
committed no breach of faith—they acted in perfect
faith, but still they entertained an opinion which
differed from the opinion of France and England. Our
opinion prevailed, and was this an arrangement which de-
served the censure of the Right Hon. Baronet ?—( Loud
cheers.) I have been told of our little experiments in esta-
blishing monarchies; but if ever there was a .successfhl ex-,
periment, the erection of Belgium into a successful state
was that successful experiment.—(Cheers.) When convul-
sion was rife throughout Europe, Belgium remained tran-
quil—(Cheers)—her people entertained a :ove and affection
for their Sovereign, and the Sovereign for' his people ; they
had made rapid advances in the sciences and the arts—thus
reflecting great honour on themselves—and had, moreover,
acquired the sentiments of nationality which entitled them
to respect. I think, Sir, this is a case to which. we may
refer with pride—(Cheers)—and on which we can claim the
approbation of Parliament.—(Cheers.) It was not without
difficulty we could carry our negotiations to so successful
an issue. The Right Honourable Baronet nye he was also a
party to another operation as regards Portugal. We have been
accused of interfering here and there in the affairs of other
countries, and I presume it is on this that the Right Hon.
Baronet founds his disapprobation of err foreign affairs
under my management as their organ. A question arose in
Portugal between Donna Anna Maria, her father Dom
Miguel, and her uncle Dom Pedro. Was it of any import-
ance to England whether Donna Maria or Dom Miguel
reigned in Portugal? but we regarded absolute Government
on the one hand, and constitutional Government on the other.

—(Loud cheers.) You may ask what interest had we in
that either? Prima facie, we might have preferred the
former, for if a nation wishes to use her influence she, can
more easily do so where the Government resides in a Court
and a Cabinet than where it exists in the representative
assembly of the people. We, however, spurned this adqvin=
tag,e—we knew there were other advantages which would
countervail it—we knew that the best chacce of remedying
the evils which existed in Portugal, and of developing her
resources, would be by securing the inestimable advan-
tages of a free constitution.—(Loud cheers.) Thinking
there was right on the side of the party, we espoused the
cau•Ze, and concluded a treaty with Spain, France, and Por-
tugal, by which Dom Miguel was expelled by force, and
Donna Maria placed on the throne. Sir, I think that in
this instance the Government acted well ; and I think also

that the Right Hon. Baronet is entitled to share with me
the credit—(Cheers)—above all, as he conclrred with me in
resorting to force.—(Cheers.) I shall be told we were not
successful, and that another insurrection Croke out in Por-
tugal when our interference lay in an opposite direction.
Now, no man can suppose that, when you ?lant free institu-
tions in a soil in which it has not hitherto grown, the tree
will all at once reach maturity and bear fruit.—(Bear, hear.)
It takes time to educate men for representative government
—it takes time to teach governors to submit to the control of
representative government.—( Hear, hear.) The whole his-
tory of the world, and of this country more than any other,
will furnish instances exemplifying the trath of this state-
ment; but can any man compare the present condition of
Portugal with what it was? Evils may exist, but her
preseut condition is as different from, her past as light
from darkness.—(Cheers.) In 1147 car conduct was
approved of by, the Right Honourable Gentleman,
but disapproved of by my Honorable and Gallant
Friend (Mr. Osborne), who has, however, given us his
support on this question. The. throne of Portugal was ein
danger, and the Government applied to ui under the treaty
into which we had entered with France and Spain . We did
not acknowledge the treaty was in force, but we had to con-
sider the case on its merits. I know that many men think
the more prudent course would have been to let the contest
go on, whatever might be its results between the parties;
but I thought then, as I do now, that the course we adopted
was the right one, and am convinced that, though for the
time we disarmed the Liberal party, we saved that Liberal
party, which would otherwise have been involved in the most

imminent danger. BlyCOnvictidn Tstcat,if England had
not adopted the course she did, the object would have been
accomplished by foreign interference, but not with the condi-
tions which England attached. These conditions were ample
and complete amnesty for all those engaged in the civil war,
the revocation of all illegal edicts, an immediate convocation
of Parliament as soon as an election could take place, and
the formation of a Government consisting neither of the
Cabral party—the High Tory party I may call them—
(Laughter)---or of the members of the Junta of Oporto.
! it is said you have got back Costa Cabral, and your
object was to get quit of him. The fault I find with those
who attack me elsewhere—(Laughter)—in that House and
in other countries, is that they try to bring every question
to a personal bearing.--(Cheers.) If the object be to op-
pose the polity of England, then the cry is—Let us get rid
of the organ of that policy.—(Cheers.) Why that is just
like knocking down a policeman. As long as the English
people are actuated by the spirit Anti dpinions which now
characterise them, you may knock down twenty Foreign
Ministers, but no Minister can keep bis place who does
not act in accordance with the national sentiments.—
(Cheers.) It is said again—You interfered in Portugal,
in 1847, not for the benefit of that country, but you
ranted to get rid of Costa Cabral. Nor did it
signify to England whether Costa Cabr .1 was Minister
of Portugal or not? We felt and knew that if, at that
moment of popular excitement, a member of the Cabral
faction was made Minister, it would inevitably lead to a
renewal of the civil war which we meant to terminate, and
therefore we made the exclusion, not for ever, but till such
time as the Cortes should determine in whom their confi-
dence was to be placed, and, till that should be done, mem-
bers of both parties were to be excluded. Then come we to
Spain. In regard to that country, as the 'Honourable Baro-
net stated, he was not in office when the independent article
of 1535 was added to the treaty of 1834. But what was
the treaty of 1834, or the treaty of Quadruple Alliance, as
it is called? Its object was to expel, not only Dom Miguel,
but Don Carlos, who was at that time at the head of a body
of troops, and.therefore, as far as the spirit of the treaty is
concerned, the Right Hon. Baronet could not ride off upon
the plea that he did not consent to the additional article. At
that time Don Carlos was in Portugal, and ready to give
battle to Spain. He subsequently evacuated the Peninsula,
came to this country, and then returned to Spain, where a
civil war was incited. It was then that the additional treaty
of 1835 was agreed to ; and its object was to give to the Queen
of Spain such assistance as was required to enable her to main-
tain her ground. In one point of view, it was of no consequence

1--to England -who-shouiciiiit tbe throne of Spain,-..mhetharAlie.
female branch or Don Carlos. Questions ofsuccession have been
matters with which other, Countries hive concerned them:-
selves, but only . where . distinct interests were. involed.
But it was in • Spain as in Portugal-:it was a question
between arbitrary and constitutional Government; and we
thought the interest of England, in every point of view,
commercial and political, would be benefited by the esta-
blishment of constitutional government in Spain.-(Cheers.)
If England, has an interest in regard to Spain,it
.is that
Spain may „be independent-that she should be Spanish,
and that she should be for the Spaniards.7-(Cheers.)
It was deemed of advantage to thig country that Spain
should not be
,placed under the' dictation' of other powers.
It was deemed for the interest of this. country that, should
she have the misfortune to have dispute, or to be- at
war with other, countries, She should not be at war with
Spain also-(Cheers)=and we thought that-, that inde-
pendent course of action was more likely to be purSned by a.
Government contrelled by a National Assembly than by a
Government purely, arbitrary.- (Cheers.) - The policy suc-
ceeded ; and althqugh Narvaez, as the,Right Hon. Baroutt
stated, is ,Minister of Spain.. I cannot see any defeat of the
policy of England -in that circumstance. Narvaez is
, Minister ; bet the constitution is in force•-(Cheers)-and
'that constitution has of late been much more strictly oh
served than at the period to which the lido. Baronet al
hided. _The Hon. Baronet found fault with a certain cominu:-
nication of mine, 'written in 1846 to Sir Henry Bulwer, and
he Stated that. it, was objec',,ionahle, no. only on'the ground,
of interference, but in manner and in tone. Now, with re--
spect to manner'and tone„there have beencertain communi-
cations made to.other Governments liyiperpons in whom the
Right Honograble Baronet has conduce - ( Laughter)-
couched in language that might poiSibly admit of the ap-
plicability of some of the criticisms which .have been applied
to mine.-(Laughter.) There was a certain dispatch ad-
dressed by the Earl of Aberdeen to Sir Edmund Lyons, and
which was read elsewhere-(Laughter, the Noble Lord pro-
ceeding leisurely to search for paper on the till4e)-and of
which I have a copy here.--,(Continued laughter.) It May
be taken as a specimen of a mild mode of interfering with the
internal arrrangements of ,other eountrieS.- Everyone knew
who Sir Richard Church was. He was a diatingnised
soldier-who fought for . Greek independence, and was long
deserved honoured and trusted by the Greek Government
but, Sir Richard being supposed-to sympathise with that
party who had extorted the constitution from the. King, in
1844; he was removed from the appointment,, he, held, of
Inspector-General of the Army, and was succeeded by ai cer-
tain General Grivas, whose former conduct had not been
altogether free from some imutation as to loyalty to the
i •
existing droiernment. The following s Lord Aberdeen's
letter of instruction to Sir. Edinnnd Lyons
" Foreign-office, Dec. 2, 1814.
" Sir,-Her Majesty's Government have learnt, with deep.
concern, the dismissal of General Sir 4icharcl Church, by,
his Majesty King Otho, from the post of•lnspectOr.:General,
of the Greek Army, which post he had so honourably and
'so usefully filled for many years. Their regret is increased
'by finding that General (Irma, who was so recently engaged
in open rebellion against the Throne, has been appointed to,
succeed him.
" Her Majesty's Government do not propose to interfere
in this matter, since, howeier Unjust the deprivation of Ge-
neral Church, and however injudicious the elevation of Ge-
neral Griva.s may have been,_ those acts were certainly
within the competence of the Greek Government.
""But although her Majesty's Government abstain from
interference, they deem it an imperative duty on their part,
considering theposition in which Great Britain stands with
regard to Greece, as a creating and a guaranteeing p.ower,
to express in the strongest terms their sense of the injus-
tice done to Sir Richard Church,
,one of the best, most dis-
interested, and most efficient supporters' of Greek inde-
pendence, by an abrupt and ungracious disiniasal, unacciani-
panied by one word of Commendation or .acknowledgment
of his great services to Greece ;,.and also their Sense of the
excess of imprudence and impolicy exhibited in .the ap-
pointment to one of the most responsible offices under the
Crown of a man whose recent conduct has shown him to be
an enemy to the throne and a deliberate -p,eryerter of order
and discipline.
Her Majesty's Goiernment 'consider. theniSelves to be
fully warranted by,the overt acts of General. Grivas himself
to instruct you to make' known these sentiments diitinctlY,
in their name, to the Greek Minister for Foreign Affairs, as
well as to the King himself, ishould,a favourable opportunity
present itself ; and, at the same time, to warn his Majesty ,
seriously and solemnly of the danger to which he will ex-
pose his country and his throne by a perseverance in so fatal
a line of policy as.he has recently pnrsued.
"I am; &c., •
ABRILD'XEN.

(Signed)
" Sir E. Lyons, Bart., G.C.8."
[This letter was read with much gusto by the Noble Lord,
who took care to point out the more prominent
.points as he
went along. The House was kept literally in " a roar"
during the reading.] It is the writer of that dispatch who
condemns me for my letter of July 19, 1846, to Sir Henry-
Bulwer. My letter, be it remarked, was not a communica-
tion to a Sovereign-( Cheers) - and the closing paragraph I
think the Right Hon. Baronet might have read as well as
the other parts, because it explains the use I intended should
be made of my communication. It is as follows:-
" It was certainly not for the purpose of subjecting the
Spanish nation to a grinding tyranny, that Great Britain
entered into the engagements of the cluadruple Alliance of
1885, and gave, in pursuance of the stipulations of that
treaty, that active assistance which contributed so materially
to the expulsion of Don Carlos from Spain. But her Ma-
jesty's Government are so' sensible of the inconvenience, of in-
terfering, even by friendly advice, in the internal affairs of
independent states, that I have to abstain from giving you in-
structions to make any representations whatever to the Spanish
Ministers on these matters; but though you will of course
take care to express on no occasion on these subjects senti-
ments different from those which I have ,thus explained to
you, and although you will be careful not' to express those
sentiments in any manner or upon any occasion so as to be
likely to create; increase, or encourage discontent, yet you
need not conceal from any of those persons who May have the
poWer of remedying the existing evils, the fact that such opi-
nions are entertained by the British Government."-(Cheers.)
Looking at the two commnnicationa-that of the Earl of
Aberdeen to Sir Edmund Lyons, and my dispatch to Sir
lienry Bulwer, I really do think that it is not from the for-
mer quarter that any condemnation shoUld coine.-(Cheers.)
If I am not worthy of condemnation, at all events my de-
tractors are not worthy to condemn.- (Cheers.), It was said
that the rudeness of my communication to the Spanish Go-
vernment was calculated to lead to a rupture, and that tai
mention of Sir Henry Bulwer as the person I would have
preferred sending to Madrid, bad his services been available,
was enough to disgust the Spanish Government. I remem-
ber when the question which arose out of previous transac-
tions was diecussed, that no man spoke, more handsomely of
the character, ability', and services of Sir Henry 13ulwer,
than the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tainworth.-
(Cheers.) And a similar. feeling seemed to pervade the
House. Well, ,it is not always that one is at liberty to tell
dipionsatie secrets ; but I am obliged, in self-defence, to take
the House into official confidence.-( Laughter.) Well, these
two notes-the one of apology, and thebther of answer-were
mutually communicated to and approved by each Govern-
ment-(lmtnense cheering) -they were .communicated con-
fidentially from the one Government to the other, before,
they were officially promulgated.-(Continued cheering.)
But, said the Right Hon. Baronet, this affair of Spain was of
long_duration, and disastrous consequences arose because It
was fulloWed by events involving matters connected With
another country, namely, France,. The Right. Hon. Baronet
stated that out of the Spanish marriages question a difference
arose between England and France, which even led to no-
thing slighter than the overthrow of a dynasty. Thera
again comes in that fancy for narrowing great creations
doWn to the smallness of personal considerations, of which I
have already complained. -(Cheers. ) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet asserted, that it was my dislike which overthrew-M.
Guizot, and with it the reigning dynasty. What will the
people of Franco Say - a people of high spirit, and
full of a sense of their own dignity-when they
'bear" it stated by a Member of the English Par-
liament, that it was in the power of; • an English
'Minister to overthrow their form of government? (Cheers.)
Why,'Sir, the French are a brave, a generous, and a noble-
minded people, and it they thought that there was &foreign
conspiracy forined against one of their Ministers;-(Pro-
lodged and general cheers) - say, Sir, that if they had
reason to suppose that a knot of foreign conspirators were
caballing against one of their Ministers, whether directly or
indirectly, and for no other reason than that he had a special
regard to the interests of his own country-(Cheers)-and
if, moreover, they had cause for suspecting that suck knot
of conspirators had Coadjutors in their own' country-I
know that the French, a brave and noble-spirited people,
would cling the closer to, and protect the more, the man
against whom they thought the attack was directed.- (Cheers.)
If, then, the French Government had' thought that I had
wanted to overthrow M. Guizot, the bare suspicion of any
such design on my part would only have had the effect of
making him stronger.-( Hear, hear.) Sir, M. Guizot was
overthrown for very different reasons-(Hear, hear)-and
his overthrow was the more to be regretted, since there
was scarcely ever a man who might brave been better,
had he better read the lessons which history and experi-
ence afforded him --(Hear, hear.) Sir, I will not refer at any
length to the question, of the Spanish marriages. I do not
wish to re-open questions gone by, or to remind this Hour
or the country of the grounds of complaint that we may
have had against those no longer in power. But as this
question forms one count' of the long indictment that has
been preferred against me, I must say, in my own defence,
that thetissatisfaction we felt on the subject.of theiSpanish
marriages was not,groundless, and that, Judging from coin-,
munications that were made to me by the noble individual
(t,ord Aberdeen). who preceded me in the office I have the
honour, o hold-judging, I say, from the statements I had
from his month in that interview which always takes place
between the Minister going out and the Minister coming in,
promises were broken in the matter of these marriages-
( Hear, 'hear )- promises. too, which had been made, not
only between the Minters themselves, but between higher
personages.-(Hear, hear)-and such as -have never yet
been broken in the history of Europe.-(Hear, hear.) If,
then, we did feel dissatisfaction with regard to these mar-
riages, I think that
,feeling was . a just one -
(Cheers), and that, on every ground of national interest
and national honour, , we were entitled, nay, bound, to
express it. - (Cheers.) And, moreover, with respect to
France, I think that the policy we have pursued towards
that nation is a policy consistent with the interest of the
country, and characterised by those principles which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite thinks ought to cha-
racterise 'the 'Policy of. this kingdom, and calculated to pre-
serve the peace of the world.-(Hear, hear.) I think that
the relations we 'have maintained with the French nation,
and with, the many chiefs under whom its government has
been placed, are enough to show that we are animated by
friendly feelings towards that nation, ,and that we consider
the maintenance of those friendly relations not only consis-
tent with, but conducive to, the best interests of both coun-
tries, and that they form the 'firmest foundation for the peace
of Europe.-(Cheers.) But, Sir, the Right HonourableGentleman (SirJaines Graham) insinuated list night that,
Lord Normanty, et the period.-immediately preceding the
revolution of 1848, was in too intimate' connexion with
some of those' -whom the throne of France' was after-
wards overthrown. Sir, I know• not who ,the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman means, put this' I do .know, that
the person with whom .Lord Normanby lived in the most in-
timate connexion was• Count Mole.--(Dear.) I have yet
to learn that Count Mold was likely to have had relations
with those who overthrew the monarchy of France ; but I
can assure this House that if the statement which has been
made was meant to convey.any inaalf/11011 that Lord Nor-
manby was holding any intercourse inconsistent with his
duiy in the position he held--I can assure this House that
any such statement is altogether unfounded - ( Hear,
hear.) And now,Sir, we have left the plains of Castile and
the fertile soil of France, and I am now taken to the moun-
tains of Switzerland, as being a place to which I am to ren-
der a stricter account of my
laughter.) The charge underst
thisrdewa '-(Hear, hear, and
stewardship,--(Dear,
is founded on. a
book by M. d'Haussonville, the contents of which chiefly
consist. -of recitals: of the conversation of individuals
who little thought that what they were saying
would form the contents of a book, and still
less that they would ,be brought under the
notice ofParliament: Now, as far as I can gather from the
Hon. Gentle Man who preceded me, the charge was this -
that in July, 1847, I declined a •proposal of the Duke tie
Broglie to mediate between the two parties then contending
in Switzerland; that I'changed my opinions in November,

_lPd_agreed to mediate; that I purposely delayed the media-
tion, with avewTo—ellarr; itfirthat—hw lat I was ending --
to Switzerland to urge mediation, I was at the same time
exciting the circumstances that were bringing on the war, in
order that the mediation might come to an end. Now, Sir,
to the first part of the charge I plead guilty, viz., that whan
the mediation first arose it did not seem to be a case with
regard to which this country should interfere.—(Hear,
hear.) The dispute arose between different portions of Swit-
zerland. The seven cantons that were peculiarly Catholic
entered into a separate league,
or Sonderbund, as it
was called, and, the other cantons were ranged
under a different aggregation--the ' difference between
the two portions being that the• states forming the
majority called upon those, that constituted the
minority, viz., the seven Catholic cantons, to expel the
Jesuits from their territories. This the minority refused to
do, and the conserence was a likelihood of this d ffer-
ence of opinion.leading to an appeal to arms. ' The majority
contended that this separate band was inconsistant with the
Act of Confederation, and that they were entitled to put it
down by farce of arms. -On the 29th of October, 1847, I
wrote a dispatch to Mr.' real, then our Chargé d'Affaires in
Switzerland, and that dispatch
_I will read to the House to
show what was 'the opinion of the Government as to the
civil war then'on the point of breaking out in that country
—What Vas their opinion but a very few days before it did
break out—and in order to ask the 'House how that opinion
would be consistent, those opinions having been thus ex-
pre;:sed to Mr. Peel,' and which he was instructed to express
to the rresidCut of the Diet, with the report of M. d'Haustion-
ville, as to what he had understobd was the opinion -Mr.
Peel 'Was to communicate the President. The dispatch is as
follows :--- _

(Copy.)

" VISCOUNT PALMERSTON TO MR. PEEL.- •
" Foreip-office, Oct. 29. 1847. "
"Sir,- With reference to your dispatch of the 18th inst., '
announcing the a.ssembling of an extraordinary Diet to '
decide upon ulterior measures for carrying into execution '
the decrees already passed respecting the separate league "• '
.existing within the Swiss Confederation, I have to desire '
that you *ill state to M. Ochsenbein that her Majesty's Go-:-
vernment, animated by the sincerest wish for the welfare of '
SWitzerland, most earnestly recommend the Vorort to pause' ' •
and well consider all the possible consequences of the step be- • '
fore they actually commence civil war against the seven •
smaller cantons. Her Majesty's Government concur with'thii"'" '• •
majority of cantons in thinking the Sonderbund at variance"' '
with the federal compact; but at the same time it, musr b'e,"
remembered that this union has not any active or aggressiiie"4'•'''
measure for its object, and there does not seem to be ail " "
practicable evil that mast necessaiilyflow from the abitlncnce :• "`
of the Diet, from any measures of coercion for' the ptirlibie •
enforcing its demand, that the Sonderbund shouldliedisSelVed: ' •
On the other hand, evils of great magnitude seem ukilyto
produced by a recourse to such measures. The first `alit '
mediate consequence will be a civil war between'thlidiffer-1
ing sections of the Swiss .nation; and as civil wai df
the greatest calamities which can befall a people, besvy intuit*.
be the responsibility which will weigh upon those Who, dith- •
out an overruling necessity, shall take the first •it?ph in such '
a conflict. The next evil will be the too probsible'hiter- '
ference of foreign powers, as allies of one of the partieS' en-
gaged in that civil conflict, and thus to the bloodslibd and '
devastation which attend civil war, and the lasting bitterness ' '
and resentments which survive such conflicts, may be added
the permanent establishment of foreign influences id the in- -
ternal affairs of Switzerland, essentially impairing the politl- '
~cal independence of the country. ,
rhe majority ought, moreover, well to, weitll h their
chances of success or failure in the conflict in 6 the ' "
are preparing to embark. In order to succeed th must
conquer the seven cantons ; are they likely to be able to '• •
do so even if none but Swiss were to be engaged in the -.War ?-• • " '
Considering the nature of the country' of !lonia of these .1 •
cantons,' and the character of the people, iflnair 'Well. be ''"
doubted whether even in that case the Diet woad •
do so. But is it not- probable that these nprghbonring
powers, who have already supplied the seven teams-With '
arms and ammunition, and other warlike 861.6; would,' if
the seven cantons were rednced to extremitY; and'''*ere to •
call for succour, afford them effectual assistance, of still - '
more decided kind? and in that cake is it 'net 'certain 'that
the attack of the, Diet would fail, and if that-ittaCk"ebould
fail, either by the unaided resistance of the Seveectintons,
or by the interposition of stronger pthverif,' •vioild, 'the
attacking cantons remain in the same relatibe sitiiiitien in •
which they now stand towards the °the?' ? Most
assuredly not. 'On the contrary, they would 'be' the beaten
party in a war begun by themselves; and the experience
of all times show that defeats of such •it kind are attended'

with inevitable evils to the defeated party. Her-Majesty's
Government entreat the Vorort to take these' reflections
into their most serious consideration, and truly re:, •
joiced would her Majesty's Government 'be, if the 'Direc-
tory were, upon mature reflection, to kbstain from a course
so replete with hazard, and so pregnant with danger to
zerland.

"I have to desire that you will read this dispatch confi-
dentially to M. Ochsenbein, and that you will say that the
. .

communication is prompted solely by the friend& interests
which her Majesty's Government take in the welfare of the
Swiss nation. " I am, Ecc.

(Signed) " PArancarron."
(gear, hear.) On the 4th of November, Mr. Peel writes' a
dispatch, reporting the conversation he had had with M.
Ochsenbein, when he read to him the dispatch of the 29th
of October, and gives the reasons why M. Ochsenbein could
not abstaia from following the course on which the Vorort
bad already determined. Well, on the 6th of November,
after this conversation between Mr. Peel and M. Ochsenbein,
in which every motive was urged which he thought likely to
induce him to abstain from war, the Duke de troglie corn.
municated to me a dispatch from M. Guizot, proposing a
measure to be adopted by the five great powers, with a view
to put an end to the cidil war in Switzerland. Now, I have
been much blamed for not at once accepting the proposal,
and for having delayed until the 16th before making a
counter one. But what was the proposal of the French Go-

vernment? That the five powers should make a collec-
tive declaration, first, that they would approve and
support the arbitration of the Pope as to the religious
questions,' the expulSion of the Jesuits,,then pending in
Switzerland; andseCondly, that we should offer to the States
of the Confederation a mediation of the live powers as to all
political questions. The Noble Lord here stated various
other provisions connected with this proposal—namely, that
a conference being held, the twenty-two cantons should be
invited to send deputies to examine and determine— first,
the means of conciliation, and next the alterations to be
made in the federal compact. It went on to propose that we
should invite the cantons to cease from the civil war, and
that if they refused we should consider the confederation as ,
not existing, and afterwards that, to use a diplomatic phrase,
nous nous y avisPrions; that is, that we should take counsel
as to our future course. Now, in the first place, we could not
but feel that to propose the arbitration of the Pope would" '
be rejected, and that with respect to the second proposition
it would not be accepted. We could not agree, therefore,
to dechire that if the cantons refused our terms we should

consider the confederacy as no longer existing, and much lest
that we should cOnsider, our eugagements with it as hiving •
ceased, one of - those engagements being that Switzer-
land should be considered as neutral territory., In short,
the ca-e was' this,"that if they refused our proposal, it
should be enforced by force of arms. Well it • required
time to consider a counter proposal. But, on the
16th we did make one, namely, an offer, the basis of which
was that the Jesuits should be withdrawn, either by an act
of the Swiss Government or by consent to be obtained from
the Pope; and that the minority should be reassured by the
majority that they had no hostile intentions against them,
and that each should disarm. 'The minority, being thus as-'
sured, were at once to dissolve the Sonderbund.' I think that

was a proposal in accordance with those principles which
ought to characterise the foreign policy of the Government.
With respect to the French Government the details of the
proposal required consideration, and it was not until the 26th
that the Duc de Broglie and I agreed upon a note, which
each party was to have presented to the Vorort, through
its agent in Switzerland. But on the 16th of November I
received a communication from the Consul-General of Swit-
zerland here, founded on a resolution of the Vorort, adopted
on the 6th of that month, which gave but little hope of suc-
cess in our mediation, for it refused to admit of any foreign
interference with respect to their dispute with the Sonder-
build. The note was not sent to Mr. Peel to present, but to Sir
S. Canning, who was then going onto Switzerland, which was
one of the plaCes to which he had instructions to repair.
But he was told to go through Paris in his way, and com-
municate with the French Government, in order that we
might be perfectly agreed as to all the details. lie was told
that if; on his arrival, he found the civil war at an end, there
would be no use in presenting the note, and he was accord-
ingly to keep it back. In the meantime, while these com-
munications were going on, the French Government had
communicated their first note to the Courts of Vienna,
Berlin. and St. Petersburgh, and it met with their approval.
A doubt arose when we came to one of the agreements, •
whether the, representatives of those countries would feel
themselves authorised to present an altered note, and Sir '5.
Canning wrote from Paris to say he doubted whether they
had any authority to present such a note. lam quite 'at a
loss to understand that Mr. Peel could have .said
to M. Bois le Comte, that "if this note, which 'we had
agreed upon with the French Government should be sent
to him, he would rather resign than present it, because it
was totally at variance with all his former instructions."
Our note offered mediation, to be accepted or rejected as the
parties might choose—it offered no alternative of forte—it
went on the basis of the settlement of the dispute respecting
the Jesuits, according to the wish of the majority—it went
on the basis of the settlement of the threatened hos-
tilities to the satisfaction of the Sonderbund and corap_late
reconciliation between the two parties—and how Mr. Peel
could say such a note was at variance with the dispatch of
the 29th of October passes my comprehension to understand
—(Lond cheers)—and I therefore wholly disbelieved that
statement.—(Loud and long-continued cheering.) The only
sepoxpklaennaotfiobny Ixtrc.anpepoel stsoibm.ly
the original note which the French Government had sent to
isighlisveloofcoitmtise e:—The note
might have been
the other Courts' and which Mr. Peel might therefore be
expecting to receive, and then be would 'be quite right in
saying that such a note it 'variance with his former in-
structions.—(Cheers.) As to the assertion that Mr. Peel
sent word to General Dufour to make haste and finish the
war for fear this mediation should
I never 'wrote him a sin privatel public,lorcan sy
is,w
ssyhollualbdlec,oine, al
that he ever did anything
could Itistif):_such a course.- (Cheers.) Neither have I had
any intimation, verbal,writteneos:r,
hear, and cheers.) I have been told
of the
"Let he had a conversation with Mr.
Timperley,. personLyons said to be sent, and Mr.' Tim-
but that he bad no orders to make
perley admittedt that he did go to head-quarters to see
what was going on,
any communication of the sort or kind from Mr. Peel.—
' (Loud and continued cheers.) I must say the manner in
which this admission is said to have been extracted from
Mr. Peel does not inspire me with any great confidence in it.
I would rather be the object thin the worker of such a'
manoeuvre.—(Loud and long-continued cheering.) That
two Ministers representing two great powers should take ad-
vantage of private intercourse, and, like two gre3 houndi
turning a nare, set themselves to extract, by artifice' and
stratagem, from the representative of a third power dome-
thing they thought he had done, is most
(Loud cheers.) After all, I can suppose that Mr. Peel, see-
ing through the artifice, may, in order to mystify them, have
feigned to fall into their trap.—(Loud cheers and laughter.)
But Mr. Peel had no authority to take any such step—l do
not believe that he did take it—l have no grounds for think-;
ing that he took it—and the evidence of Sir E. Lyons goes di-
rectly to negative such an assumption.—(Cheers.) We should.
have been glad if that mediation had succeeded, because it
would have restored peace to Switzerland, and have left the .
minority on better terms with regard to the majority; but
circumstances over which we had no control ren-
dered it impossible, without the opprtunity of its
being effected by any studied delay on our part. It
has been said, however, that Switzerland is an instance
of the bad effects of our interference. I think; on the con-
trary, that it might be quoted as an instance when'the prin-
ciples we have advocated have led to good results, because,
while all the rest of Europe has been more or less convulsed,
the Swiss, who had effected, by our recomMendation;changes
in their internal organisation, wholly ' esCaPed:—(l,ond
cheers.) Now, Sir, I will travel over the Alps to the
smiling plains of Lombardy.---(Cheers.) / have been ac-
cused of great injustice to Austria, in withholding a certain
dispatch from Prince Metternich to Count Galore& The
simple ;facts are these:—The Austrian Government sent
dispatchei to their , Minister to be comdinnlcited to-ns,, in-