The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-17 00:00:00

which were enforced with his usual ability. In ono
part of his speech, the Noble Lord, censuring her Ma-
jesty's Government, said that, as a matter of policy, he
would recommend an addition to the stipendiary magise
trates, but at all events he, thought it was highly im-
politic to diminish that fiumber. He (Sir James
Graham) was 'sitting near the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Ireland, who handed to' him a return
which appeared to him to afford a triumphant answer
to the Noble Lord's statement •, and when he replied
to the Noble Lord he quoted that return. Now, What
was the substance of his statement? It was that the
maximum number of stipendiary magistrates in
Ireland, under Lord Normanby and Lord For •
tescue, was fifty-nine up to the 13th of June.
What was the fact, as admitted by the Noble Lord ?
It was that until the 13th of February, 1841, 59 was the
maximum number. He had stated that between the 13th
of June and the 28th of August, seven new magistrates
were appointed.
Lord EBBINGTON—Seven additional ones.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Seven additional ones. What was
the fact? Between the 13th of February and the 28th
Of August there only four new stations appointed, but
there were eleven new magistrates. There having been
only four new stations, it followed that there must have
been seven additional magistrates. He had now said all
that he had thought it necessary to say in explanation of
what had fallen from him in the hurry of debate.
Mr. BARING said that whilst he had been in office
he had not been influenced in his appointments by party
considerations. The Right Hon. Gentleman then re-
ferred to various dates in order to show that
he had made appointments of persons adverse
to the Government of which he was a member,
and that he was entirely governed by the consideration
of the fitness of the person appointed. He (Mr. Baring)
did not complain of the Government, in 1835, for the
appointments they had made after their resignations had
been announced ; but he referred to them merely to
show What the rule was. He alluded to them to show
the strictness with which all acts connected with the
pnblie service were performed; and on this account he
was the more more surprised to find the Right Honour-
able Baronet (Sir J. Graham) descending to the clap•
trap which he had done.—(Hear, hear.) It was no
matter whether it was the last hour or the first hour of
official existence that vacancies took place, they mast
be, filled up as they so became vacant. He did think
it was a very unworthy thing to keep a charge
back t the space of two years, then to be brought for-
ward in such a shape and in such a spirit; and he should,
therefere, suggest to the Right lion. Gentleman (Sir J.
Giaham) to be more careful for the future before he
ventured to attack even his old friends.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ELIOT said, that for any inaccuracy which had
occured he alone, and not his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J.
Graham), 'was to blame. He did not much like the
ar-oumenturn ad hominem, and always abstained as care-
fully as possible from personal observations; but he
would venture to say. that there had not been a news-
paper in that country, nor a periodical—enot even the
great Whig organ the Edinburgh Review—which
had not denounced the late Government upon
this point.—(Hear. hear.) And alter all that
had fallen, apparently with such triumph, from his
Right Hon. Friend the late' Chancellor -of the. Ex-
chequer (Mr. Baring), ho challenged any one to show
any material inaccuracy in the return. There were
three new stations created, and, in his opinion, need-
lessly so.. For when the House recollected that for the
laA three years sixty stipendiary magistrates had been
found sufficient, and this during a period when there
had been' famine riots in Ireland and poor-law distur-
"minces, and all the agitation connected with repeal, he
thought most certainly that new appointments,
were most uncalled-for and extravagant. With
respect to the return of the appointments of magis-
trates that had been referred to, and which had been
asserted not to exist, he felt no hesitation in saying that
anch returns did exist. He maintained that the state-
ments that had been made by his Right Hon. Friend
were substantially correct, that the late Government had
made an addition of seven new magistrates, and that on
the last day of their holding officc they appointed one
utagistrate.—(Hear hear.) •
Mr. LAMA:CARE considered the question now
before the House was, whether the late Lord Lieutenant
of 'letup(' had prostituted the patronage that he had in
his poWCr. The charge that hal been made against Lord
Fortescue had entirely broken down, and he was
astonished at the language. that had been employed that
night.—(Hear, hear.) He would put it to the Hon.
Member whether there was anything before the House
to justify the Right lion. Gentleman in saying that Lord
Fortescue was actuated by unworthy motives in ap-
pointing the magistrates he had done. He was asto-
nished at the observations that had been made with re-
spect _to the return, and he felt that nothing but the
high character of Lord Fortescue had shielded him
frpm the attack that had been directed againit him.
With regard to tho appointments themselves they had
not heard that any one of the appointments bad been
iruproperly filled up. His Noble Friend bad, even at
the distance of two years, been enabled to state the
grounds of each appointment—(Cheers)—and the House
had bear.l the statement which he had made.—(Cheers.)
Lord Fortescue had received applications from persons
of respectable character, and of all shades of politics,
beseeching the Government to make these appointments;
and if Lord ForteAcue had not addt cl to the magistracy,
these applications would have been produced, and he
would have been charged with having failed in his duty,
and with having left the country in an unprotected state.
—Hear, hear.) He congratulated his Noble Friend on
the result of this debate.—(Cheers.) His Noble Friend
bad by this debate secured the only object which he
cared about relating to it, which was, to relieve his
Noble Relative from the accusation which had been
brought agan.t him, that he had improperly used his
patronage while he held the Office of Lord Lieutenant of
leland.—(Loud cheers.) •

Lord STANLEY would not have taken any part in
the discussion had it not been for the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Any
one listening to that speech Would hare suppoged that
his Right Hon. Friend had brought this forward as a
charge against the Government of Ireland. Now, the
fact was, that his Right Hon. Friend was replying, on
the spur of the moment, to a charge which bad been
made by,tbe Noble Lord the Member for London, who
said, " You have unduly diminished the stipendiary ma-
gistracy of Ireland, when you ought to have increased
it ;" the answer to which hail been, " :so far from di-
niinishing the number of stipendiary magistrates, we
have now, and have had, throughout our Government, a
number. equal to the number which either Lord Nor-
manby or Lord Ebrington ever maintained in. Ireland,
Wept during the last six months' of Lord Ebrington's
administration; and his Right Honourable Friend,
aimiling himself of a paper that had been put into his
hind by his Noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland,
said," 4* .you dispute the fact, this paper will show it."
That paper proved that in 1838, 1839, and- 1840, the
number of stipendiary magistrates had .varied from 57
to 3'3, at-no time had they been higher than 59 or less
than 57; and it was only during the last six months of
LOrd Ebringtou'3 'administration, that seven additional
magistrates had been added' to the stipendiary force in
ireland,—and in fact, They had dOne so. There might
bg causes for it or there might not, but while they were
b(!aiting or the' increased tranquillity in Ireland un-
doubtedly they had made seven new appointmients•
Mr. LL BOUCHME—Not new appointments.
Lord STANLEY—Seven new magistrates.--(Hear,
hear.) But if those three were new appointments,
those three appointments had been made not only after
the month of June, but after the 28th of July. On that
day Nicholas Kelly had been appointed, vice an old ma-
gtstrate appointed to a new st. tioa. On the 6th of
august Edward Savage was a . to Ballyshannon,
anew station; and on the 28th o ugust Henry Al-
cock was appointed, vice another old- magistrate 'ap-
pointed' to .a new station. He did not say that the ford
tieutetiant had not gOod reason for appointing these
magistrates.-
Mr.
LABOUCHERE—That is the whole case.
Lord STANLEY—That was not the whole case; the
case must be considered in connection with the whole
coarse of the debate. While boasting that Ireland was
in a state of extraordinary tranquillity, they had made
seven new appointments; and three new stations. That
had been brought forward by his Right Hon. Friend as
an answer to the charge made bythe' Noble Lord the
Member for London, and had been mentioned as a proof
that the present Government had kept up a force of
stipendiary magistrates equal to that which was kept up
by the late Government.
. Mr. VILLIERS STUART felt it. his duty to state
that applications had been made from some of the most
respectable inhabitants of the part of the country with
Iv!"ch he was connected, to the Lord Lieutenant for the
appointment of new stipendiary magistrates, as the
number of
:those at that time appointed was not suffi-
cient for the due administration
s
of justice.
e
'Lord ELIOT Some magistrates had been
removed from one part of the country to another, and
lately there had been no demand for magistrates to be
permanently appointed.
Mr. W YSE bore testimony to the high character of
being dism
Mr: Alcoa
swho had been put to great inconvenience by
id.
Mr. MORE O'FERRALLforsawiadrdthettl)enly object of his
Noble Friend in brining
rescue Earl Fortescue from an imputationmofotaio, was
to
eitercise of' his patronage. If the Right Hon. Baronet
had said that he did not intend any such imputation,
debate would have terminated. with his Noble Friend's
speech. But he had not' done so ; on the contrary,s
he had justified the imputation, and attempted t
re-assert the truth of the statement. It was this
of which 'the Noble Lord had reason to complain.
No person could say; who was acquainted with the ad-
ministration, of Ireland, when it might be necessary to
63A:stake an appointment of a stipendiary magistrate. As
can instance of this, he would 'mention that there were
ilia magistrates in the commission of the peace in Tal-
-144 who gave up. their commissions because a Whig
GOvernment was in office. A stipendiary Magistrate
had of course to be appointed. It' might happen that
every appointment was not for the benefit of those who
were in office, but it might be also for thOse who would
succeed. • "
Sir R. PEEL said that it was the invariable practice
fora Government to till up all existing vacancies before
they were formally superseded,
,and though they had
a
wasnuontch9 their intention to resign ; n ty, more, there
unusual in one Government filling up appoint-
ments which had beenlic could made by a preceding Government.
give an
petstanee in which an appointment vvus
Made two peerages,
if-,:,;lan.d upon die intentions of the
Government
sti iv of the croNi,l,
Was .I,rely proved, when the plea-
although no formal in-
strument passed, the succeeding
the, appoi 0 trn„t,; they
consr.(;tieentiguty=tooovekrnprae;,t
and
there rejected
was nothing peculiar in the aasae- which had been re-
ferred to., Tilt? question arose appointments,
and not a ith regard to the filling uphteoifarsl,ls.sec:alec,e:. The case
wags put upon its right footin., b
Member for Laudashire. itight lien. Gentleman,}l opt
tnhre
the Member lor.Kildare, said that if hi--;
I'4* hall o>zly colo fort" aid before and fitaittz4

error as he had done new, the present discussion would
not have
.continued. His Right Hon. Friend admitted
every error of which he was convinced, but his Bight
Hon. Friend did not admit, and would not admit, that of
which be was not convinced. But the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth said that if his
Right Hon. Friend had made, in the first instance, the
speech which he made to-night, there would have been
no necessity for the motion.
Mr. BARING—No, no.
Sir R. PEEL so understood the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. This was no original attack made by his Right
Honourable Friend upon Lord Fortescue. The Govern-
ment had been accused of reducing the number of
stipendiary magistrates, for the purpose of reviving the
ancient authority of the old magistrates. His Right
Hon. Friend met that accusation by stating that there
was no reduction in the number of the stipendiary ma-
Fistrates, if they took the present number and compared
it with the three years preceding the Ist of January,
1841. But in the interval from the Ist of
January, 1841, seven new appointments had been made,
so that his Right Hon. Friend was justified in making
that statement. There were seven new stations. It
was not that seven vacancies were filled up, which would
be only a legitimate use of authority by the Government
who were going out, but that was not the question.—.
(Hear, hear.) It was that there were seven new stations
made. He did not say that they were improperly made.
He -would now state the particular circumstances of
those cases, A justification had been made out for
each appointment, but that did not touch the defence of
his Right Hon. Friend. lie would say that the mere
circumstance of an application being made was no con-
clusive proof of its being necessary. (Laughter.)
He apprehended that stipendiary magistrates were
paid put of the Consolidated Fund. If the mere
application of a person for an office worth 5001. or 600/.
a year was a complete proof of the necessity of appoint-
ing the applicant. Nothinc, could be more easy than
to produce, not only a morale' conviction, but even a
mathematioalproof, of its necessity. He would not say
that the appointment of Mr. Walker was not justified
by the necessity of the case ; all he would say was, that
it an application constituted a conclusive proof of the
propriety of the appointment, there would hardly
be any limit to the number of appointments
which might not to be vindicated upon that ground:
The circumstances of the country might justify the ap-
pointment of those magistrates, yet his Right Honour-
able Friend the Secretary' of State for the Home
Department was, he thought, justified in vindicating the
present Government.
Mr. HAW ES said that the impression made on his
mind was, that there had been jobbing on the part of the
late Government, and now it appeared that there was no
ground for such a charge.
Sir R. PEEL—Ye did not say that Lord Fortescue
committed any such job.
Mr. HAWES---No, but it was insinuated. The effect
of the present discussion was to remove any impression
from his mind unfaTourable to the late Government in
the matter.

Lord EBRINGTON replied.
The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought
up and agreed to—t No votes having been reserved, one
regarding Irisb. poor-laws, _and the otherJelatiag to the
expenses of the House of Lords.
The House then adjourned, at a Quarter-past One.

THE STATE TRIALS.
(From the Morning Herald.)
DUBLIN, MONDAY. EVENING.

Easter Term commenced this day ; at an early hour the
hall of the Four Courts was crowded by persons who were
manifestly anxious to hear the result of the State trials, as
it was generally supposed that Mr. O'Connell and his
associates would be called up for judgment at the sitting of
the Court. Many were, however, disappointed, for'the only
traversers who were actually in Court were Dr. Gray and
Mr. flay. The Attorney-General or Solicitor-General did
not appear in Court. Mr. O'Connell, accompanied by
his son, Mr. J. O'Connell, arrived about twelve o'oclock.
It is not expected that anything will be done respecting the
conspirators until ThUrsdaY next. The four-day (side bar)
rule was, entered this afternoon, and will be served to-night.
The rule calls upon the conspirators'to " appear and show
cause in four days why the judgment of. the Court should not
be passed, and execution had thereon." This rule will ex,
pire on Friday next, but it is expected that counsel on behalf
of the conspirators will move for a new trial on Thursday.
The argument upon this motion may occupy a week, or
perhaps more, as it is contended that each of the eight tra-
versers has a right to be heard by two counsel. If the
motion is refused (which is very probable, from the
extraordinary, grounds upon which it is made), tben
judgment will be passed ; however, another motion
" in arrest of judgment," it is said, will then be made, and
the lovers of Irish eloquence may. have the gratification of
satiating themselves for perhaps another fortnight.
It is rumoured that the object of these protracted
arguments is to prevent the sentence being carried
into effect this term, and I believe that is really
what is contemplated. The Crown will meet them foot to
foot in every stage, but it is at present impossible to say
when the matter will terminate.

At eleven o'clock Mr. Justice Burton tookhis seat (unrobed)
upon the bench, and the following gentlemen were called to
the bat
Walter Atkin.
Pnrefoy Bateman.
* William Gernon.
* Stephen P. P. Curtiss.
* John Joseph Andrew Kirwan, Esq.
* Thomas Alexander Dwyer.
* Robert Taylour.
* James Thomas Farrell.

Thomas Bourchier.
William John,Duna&
* Thomas Donohoe,
* Francis Roberts. -
Those whose. names are marked with an asterisk are Ca-
tholics.