The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-22 00:00:00

IN THE HOUSE.

The Marquis of LANSDO WNE rose to move the re-
solution of which he bad given notice with relation to
the accommodation provided iu their Lordships'
House for foreign Ministers. He would not
further allude to too circumstance which they must
all deplore, in consequence of which a most eminent
member of the diplomatic body had been deprived of
the: seat which he thought he had a fall right to oc-
cupy, more especially as on the door by winch he bad
entered was inscribed, " For the Monsters of the Diplo-
matic Body." That eminent person, therefore, who was
well known to their Lordships' urged that be had a right
to the seat which he occupied. The mistake was most
unfortunate, and, in order to obviate such mistakes for
the future, he moved the appointment of a Select Com-
mittee, of which he bad given notice.
Lord BROUGHAM seconded the motion, in order to
show that he entirely agreed with his Noble Friend.
In so doing ho wished to state the circumstances which
took place, because anything more complete than the
gross misrepresentations which had gone forth to the
public in the least decorous language that he had ever
heard applied to any Member of either House of Parlia-
ment, be had never had occasion to read, and he believed
his Noble Friend opposite entirely agreed with him in
that remark. [The Marquis of Lansdowne assentel] lle
did not recollect having named the gentleman to their
Lordships.— (Hear, hear.) Ho recollected having pur-
posely abstained front so doing, because be felt sure that
the moment their Lordships assented to his proposition
that the order should be enforced, the gentleman would
immediately lease his place. That being the case, it
%as not from any the most remote approach even to-
wards personal disrespect to that individual that he so
proceeded. In common with his Noble Friend opposite,
he entertained the greatest respect for that individual,
for his attainments, fur his station, as well as for his
character. He was upon the most friendly footing with
him. It was from no disrespect either to his functions
of envoy that he took that course. If the individual
had been one of their Lordships, who had an undoubted
right to be in that place, and who could not have been
challenged for being in that place, he should have taken
leave, with all possible tenderness and respect towards
the wrong-doer, to have entered his protese against his
remaining there.—(Bear and laughter.) It had been
said that he (Lord Brougham) and his Noble Friend the
Chancellor of tbe Ducey of Lancaster (the Earl of
Carlisle) had been seen repeatedly in the Peeresses' Gal-
lery .—(A laugh.) To be sure they had, over and over
again. But never, he would venture to say, did either
his Noble Friend or himself keep a seat in the Peeresses'
Gallery when peeresses were standing at the door and
could not obtain a seat.— (Hear, hear.) That (said the
Noble and Learned Lord) is the question. No gentle-
man in England, at least, be he a member of this House
or I believe of the other—(Laughter)---but I can only
speak of the House to which I have the honour of belong-
in—no gentleman in England, in Parliament or out, will
ever keep a seat to the exclusion of a lady who is unable
to obtain a seat. When the noble ladies in question—
amongst them the nearest relation of my Noble Friend
whose conduct was to form; he subject of that night's
debate—came to the door, they tound the peeresses'
place absolutely full—they found it utterly impossible to
obtain standing room. I then, as I thought, courteously
—I am sure I intended nothing uncourteous—l cour-
teously addressed myself three times over to the highly-
respectable individual—l three times over stated that
ladies were at the door, peeresses who had an undoubted
right to be in the gallery. I then stated most cour-
teously that there was a place for that individual below,
appointed for him to occupy. Perhaps he, being a
foreign gentleman, did not understand me.—(Laughter.)
And why do I say hs did not understand me? Because
he never took the slightest notice of what I said—he
never even looked towards me.—(Laughter.) But be
heard what I said. And I repeatedly said, " I shall be
under the disagreeable necessity of applying to the
House to enforce the standing orders." Still no
notice. 'And even after I was speaking in the Houses
and after the order had been read by my Noble and
Learned Friend on the Woolsack, the gentleman, igno-
rant of our language—(Laughter)—took not the
slightest notice. I have no doubt part of this was owing
to the inscription over the door, cf which I at that time
was not aware. I ought to mention that one or two
peeresses left the House and went home in consequence
of their places being occupied.—(Hear, hear.) The
Noble and Learned Lord then proceeded to say that in
this country there was not the slightest disposition to
show any disrespect to any rank of diplomatic agents.—
(Hear, hear.) On the contrary, rank had been accorded
to them in a most ample manner. They had been by
royal mandate endorsed with rank which never had
before belonged but to the representatives of sovereigns,
Their Lordships were aware that an ambassador was on
a different footing with that of an envoy.—(Hear, hear.)
An ambassador represented the sovereign, and ranked
before some of the peers, but an envoy represented
nobody but the minister of a foreign sovereign.
A few years ago. sank - was given to all envoys,
down to those coming from even the least
im-
portant states, before earls and marquises.. [A Peer—
" No: beforetEarls."3 He supposed his Noble Friend
had taken care they should not go before Mar-
quises.—(Laughter.)
The Marquis of LA.NSDOWNE—They do go before
Marquises.—(Continued laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM—But did any Noble Earl or any
Noble Marquis object on that account? No such thing.
That was a clear proof that no disrespect was intended
these representatives of other powers.—(klear, hear.)
He thought the accommodation to be provided ought to
be confined to ambassadors, envoys, charg6 de
affaires, ministers, plenipotentiaries, and'secretaries
of
legation.—(Hear, hear.)
Earl GREY said the distinguished individual alluded
to did not understand that he was appealed to—as the
Noble and Learned Lord had stated—to make
able
,
from feelings of courtesy, for ladies who were not
his impression was,
to find places. On the contrary,
that he was summoned out of the place where he was
sitting in such a manner that he thought it due to
self, and the body of which ho was a member, to decline
moving.—(Hear, hear.) He (Earl Grey) afterwards
heard the order made by the House, and took shame to
himself for not baying suggested to their Lordships that
order which, under the circumstances, ought not
it to washa an
ve beef made. But, undoubtedly, the occurrence
d so rapidly that the idea did not strike bias at the
tunes'iiss The individual to whom allusion bad bsen made
did not conceive the appeal was made to him to do what
the Noble and Learned Lord said no gentleman here or
elsewhere would do, whether he had a right to maintain
his place or not. If the appeal had been made in that

/•'.•7

manner, be was quite sure the gen:lemma would not halve
kept his seat. lie telLved thcie were ladies there who
wcre not eniitled to that place uncler the orders cf ;heir
Leordqiips' House, and he was not surc that the Noble.
and Learned Lord was not also aware of that circum-
stanee.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) vt'.l
Lord BROUGHAM. declared that he was perfectly
unaware of it. He teak up two ladies—a peeress and
a peer's daughter, who is married. He only asked a
place for a near relative of a noble viscount (a vis-
countess), whose place was undeniably fixed by order of
the House, and who teas naturally anxious to hear what
world be said re:pceting her noble relative. Another,
still nearer, was obliged to get a seat in the box below
the bar.—(Neer. hear.)
The Marquis of LONDONDER:iY understocd that a
letter had been written to the Noble Lord the Secretary
fer Foreign Affairs, by the Chevalier Bunsen, on this
particular question, and he wished to know whether the
Noble Marquis would lay that letter on the table in
order that the Committee might be in full
the statements on both sides. possession of
Lord BROUGHAM could not irnajae anything more
absural.—(L,u,hter.) lie hail felt hound to make the
statement he had now laid before their Lordships
in consequence t f the indecorous misstatements which
had be,li laid before the public.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE considered the pro-
duction of the letter referred to perfectly unnecessary.
Measures were now iu progress to prevent the recurrence
of any mistake, and the production of such a letter
would seem to imply that the alteration was made in
consequence of the statements contained in that letter.
The Marquis of BREADALDANE said, he thought
the Noble and Learned Lord, in the excitement of the
moment and in his anxiety to provide accommodation
for those noble ladies, had forgotten what really hap-
pened, and he wished to ask the Noble and Learned
Lord whether he did not address that excellent gentle-
man from the House, and say to him "Now, will you
come down?"—(Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM—No, no.—(Great laughter.)
The Marquis of BREADALBANE was told so by a
person who was present at the time.
Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble Friend, one of the
hereditary judges of the land, showed a total ignorance
of the rules of evidence.—(Load laughter.) He did not
speak of him in his character of Lord Chamberlain, or
class him with his.predeces4or in Shakspere; but, as a
Peer of Parliament, he must say that he had
not the slightest notion cf the law of evidence.—
(Laughter.) The Noble Lord said he was not pre-
sent, but that he heard what passed from some one who
was present.—(Laughter.) Did he say he was present
at the time?

The Marquis of BREADALBANE—IIe was not a
member of your Lordships' House.
Lord BROUGHAM (with energy)—Then he misin-
formed the Noble Lord—(with increased energy)—ho
totally, entirely, and grossly misinformed the Noble
Lord; and the Noble Lord may tell him I say it.
TA° Earl of HARROWBY had bees acquainted for
many years with that most excellent individual
(Chevalier Bunsen), and willingly bore testimony
to his character as a gentleman. If that excellent
individual had had the slightest idea ho was ap-
pealed to as a gentleman be would not have
hesitated to remove. Ho (Lord Harrowby) was certain
that this gentleman was under no such impression at the
titre. He considered he had been requested—not to
make room for ladies—but to quit a place which ho was
entitled to occupy as Ilia Minister of a foreign court.
He would again say, he had been acquainted fur twenty-
eight years with that gentleman, and he knew him to be
incapable of doing anything to impair his character as a
gentleman, or to impair his character as an observer of
the courtesies of lire, which courtesies he was sure that
gentleman would he the first to oll'or any one. As that
gentleman's character had been impeached in their Lord-
ships' liouz;e, and the circumstances divulged to the
world, he could not withstand the opportunity of coaling
forward in defence of an old and attached friend.
The Committee was then agreed to.

The Earl of HARROWBi. postponed his motion on
education from Friday to Monday week, in order to make
way for tho Irish franchise question.
The Marquis of LANSI)OWNE had no objection to
fix the debate on the Irish franchise for next Friday.
The Earl of CARLISLE brought in a Bill for the
better ventilation of coal mines and protection of miners.
The Bill WM read a first time.
Thar Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 21.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).

On the motion for going into Suppiy,
Hr. HAMILTON rose to move, that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will
be graciously pleased to direct that such a modification
of the system of national education in Ireland may
be made as may remove the conscientious objs c-
tions which a large proportion of the clergy and
laity of the Established Church entertain to that sys-
tem as at preeeat carried into operation; or otherwise,
that means may be taken to enable those of the clergy
and laity of the Established Church, who entertain such
conscientious objections, to extend the blessings of
scriptural education in Ireland. He said he felt it ne-
cessary to apologise to the House for bringing
forward the subject
,on the occasion of going
into Supply, but it Was of such importance that
he had felt himself compelled to take this course
lie had no intention to throw out any insinuation against
the National Board of Education in Ireland. His object
was to state to the House the hardships and injustice
under which 1,730 out of 2,040 of the clergy of the Es-
tablished Church in that country, as well as 100,000 of
the laity of that Church, were suffering in consequence of
the present state "of college education. The Church of
Ireland was placed in a very anomalous and objection-
able position in regard to education, and he was anxious
to press on her Majesty's Government the necessity of ap-
plying some remedy for the purpose of altering that posi-
tion. Ile was quite ready to acknowledge the question of
education in both countries was surrounded by diffi-
culties, but more particularly in Ireland; ho appreciated
those difficulties, and was therefore ready to con-
cede as tar as possible the views which had
Brea taken on this important subject by her
Majesty's Government. In consequence of those
difficulties very great concessions and sacrifices of opi-
nion had been made of late years. Formerly education
was considered to be in a groat degree connected with
the Established Church. Now the system of State edu-
cation was of a denominational character; in England it
way almost entirely so, and in Ireland it was practically se.
No one could doubt that the 2,500 schools under the su-
perintendence of the Roman Catholic Church, and the'
400 schools under the control of the Presbyterian clergy,
were conducted upon a scriptural system. Well, then,
if that could not be disputed, was it strange that the pe-
culiar tenets taught in those schools were adverse to
those taught by the Established Church? The result of
this state of things wee, then, that the members of the
Established Church were altogether excluded from par-
ticipating in the advantages of the national system.
The clergy of the Established Church in Ireland con•
sidered that they were peculiarly bound to main-
tain the principles of the Reformation ; and
they were of opinion that the present system of
national education was entirely at variance with
the principles of the Refertnation. They claimed the
privilege of being treated in the same manner as their
brethren of the Established Church in this country.
They objected entirely to the rules and regulations of the
National Society for Education, and the means by which
it carried oat its obiects. He believed that a latitudi-
narian or secular system of education was as repugnant to
Roman Catholics us it was to Protestants; therefore any-
thing tending to that end would be very objectionable.
Most of the clergy men of the Established Church
in Ireland, as well as many Roman Catholics, were
in favour of a national system of education, based on the
same principles as those on which the schools now
in existence had been founded. He had no doubt that
the clergy and laity connected with the Established
Church in Ireland, on whose representations he had been
induced to make the present motion, would be successful
in their appeal to the good sense and justice. of the
House. The lion. and Learned Member cuncladed by '
proposing the motion, which is given above.
Mr. WALPOLE said he hal great pleasure in se-
condiug the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,'
because he believed that no more reasonable proposition
could be submitted to the House. He thought it was ir-
resistible on two grounds—on the ground of justice and
also as a matter of national policy. The system of edu•
cation in England and Ireland was essentially different.
In this country the principle upon which education wail
based was a most liberal one ; whereas, in Ireland the
system was one of religious exclusion. In England the
public grants for education were fairly divided between
amlladreeliagpiopuliscaplialretietso
;oNivs lelecroemasbinined Ireland
the fund was
hers of the Government stated, on various occasions,
.
The nrm-
that a combined system would not answer here, because,
as they urged, it would have the effect of excluding cer-
tain religious parties from the benefit of such a system.
Yet they attempted to carry out this system in Ireland ;
the effect of which was to exclude from the public grans
for education those schools where the Scriptures were
read without note or comment. It was true that the
all parties, but this had
amongst
that the only system
system in Ireland had been proposed for the purpose of
producing goodwill
He contended
to give grants to enable
ftishialetdcoiunlaitsweofrfkecetsff.
all classes of religionists to educate their children in se-
cordance with their own religious views. There were
in Ireland 1,861 schools, in which 120,000 children were
educated, of whom 15,000 were dissenters, and 46,000
Catholics. Those were grounds upon which in justice,
if not in policy, they ought to accede to the principle"
of general instruction, to which the members of the
Church Establishment should receive the same advan-
tage as the Roman Catholics, and ho hoped the Noble
Lord would yield to the considerations he had sug-
gested.
Sir WM. SOMERVILLE said, that though this mo-
tion professed not to have in view the reversal of the
existing system of education in Ireland, yet it was di-
rectly calculated to accomplish that object. The pre-
sent system of education in Ireland, which was intro-
duced by Lord Stanley, to whom in this respect the
country was under deep obligations, was essentially an
united system of education. It bad now been in farce
for eighteen years, and hitherto had been attended with
considerable advantage. Now the modification which
the motion of the lion. Member opposite was aiming
at, might be inferred from the petition which the Hon.
Member had alluded to, which evidently showed that
the great point of objection was a supposed exclusion of
the Holy Scriptures from the course of education. Ho
denied, however, that the Bible was excluded from these
Irish national schools. The only law on this subject
was, that the reading of the Bible should be made com-
pulsory against those who entertained conscientious
scruples in their religious views, He would ask, too,
whether the present system pursued in the national
schools of Ireland was not that also pursued in the
workhouse schools, and in the gaols? Besides, they
could not establish a separate system with respect
1 to the Church of Ireland, without establishing a

_'tom

\,ISAN.;

-=..d

separate system for the Catholic Church in Ireland, and
endowing it with a separate fund. Where were the
funds to come from ? tie was convinced that, besides
being more costly from the maintenance of separate esta-
blishments, the Protestants of Ireland would not ap-
prove of such a system. It was unfair and unjust for
Hon. Gentlemen concurring in the object of the present
motion, to tax Protestant clergymen in Ireland who
were of a different opinion, with acting in opposition to
their ordination vows, and with supporting a system which
they well knew to be anti-scriptural. He believed that
the motion would destroy the present system of na-
tional education in Ireland, and, considering how much
good that system had done and was doing, he hoped the
House would not consent to supersede it by another
which was sure to prove expensive and unpopular.—

(Bear, hear.)
Me. • NEW DEGATE, • in expressing his intention
to support the motion .of the Hon. Member for the
University of Dublin, said he did.so not from any inten-
tion of diminishing the privileges and advantages
of parties who dissented from the Church Esta-
blishment, but from the belief 'Which he had that
it was quite possible for the House so to modify
the.existing system, as to do damage to none, and pro-
bably advantage to all. The modification which they
sought to introduce would not supersede the existing
system; and further than. this, ie would be ,a con-
cession
to the religious views of parties. He would
call upon the Government to regard these conscientious
convictions: not to do so was an net of tyranny. The
Noble Lord regarded this principle so far that he would
release a few from a durability, although there were but
forty thousand of the community in the country. Ile
ought then to consider the religions scruples of the
Church of Ireland. Was it to be argued because the
Church of Ireland had property that they should be ex-
cluded from these grants. Was not the Church of Eng-
land richer, and it participated in these grants? Could
it be:pretended that the Roman Catholics in this country
could complain of. poverty? Ho saW'churches, convents,
and monasteries springing up on all sides. He did not
know whence the funds came, but he did not think they
were English. In Ireland -there were 2,400 schools in
connexion with the Roman Catholics, and but 95 under
the control of the Church of Ireland. The Bible could
not be suspended. ,
Mr. E. H. STANLEY, after stating the difficulty
which he felt in replying to the speech of the Honour-
able Member for the University of Dublin, said that he
recollected that the principle -on which the revolution
was effected in Dublin was that of entire toleration. He
hoped the Hon. Member would extend to him the benefit
of that principle, and would tolerate the conscientious
difference of opinion which he entertained on this occa-
sion. He had been a little surprised to hear something
which was urged by the Hon. Gentleman. It was urged
by the lion. Member for the University of Dublin that
the whole system of national education, as established in
1831, aas irreligious and unscriptural. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Warwickshire made a charge that they had, in
many instances, departed from the objectionable system;
Again, he had heard it stated—ia fact, it seemed. to he
ttesumed as a point on which no dispute or difference of
opinion could .exist—that the Bible was excluded from
the natioaal Schools. He entertained serious doubts-as
to the accuracy of that statement.. He found that
the only sense in which, it could be said
that the Bible was excluded was this—that when
the Bible was read iu the school Roman Catholic
children had the option of leaving the school. He
did not see how theprinciple would be strengthened by
any regulation which would make it compulsory on,
Roman Catholics to make it a rule to attend to reading
the Bible. It was a matter of some importance to con-
sider two points; they ought to consider what was the
system superseded by -the new ones, and, if they
abolished the present system. what they were prepared
to substitute. He would endeavour to show the inten-
tion with which the national schools were established.
He found it was stated by the Secretary for Ireland in
1831, referring to several previous Commissions, which
had issued on the subject of education, that the opinion
expressed by the Commission of, 1812 was, that no, plan
of- education for Ireland, however wisely contrived in,
other respects, could be carried into operation if attempts
were made to disturb peculiar religious opinions. There
was a general concurrence of the Committees from 1812
down to the establishment of the national schools, that
no system founded on proselytism could succeed in
Ireland. The Society for National Education in
Ireland in 1786' was instituted in Ireland to
.give
instruction -on liberal principles. The society was
inadequate .to the wants of the people. In 1811 a
similar society wasp set on foot on a larger scale. The
principles of the Kildare-street Society, as he understood
them, were briefly these.• Tao first principle was that
which his Hoe. Friend in 1850 despaired or, viz., that of
a united education. Another principle was that the
Scriptures should be read, but read without note or com-
n:ent. The permission or injunction left absolutely un-
settled the whole of the difficulty of the question, for it
was left out of the question how much should be read,
when it should be read, or by whom. The Kildare-
street Society fell almost into the hands of the Protest-
ants. 'rho reading of the Scriptures at all hours, and
all places, was very general. Aeainst such a system
the Roman Catholic population protested. It was de-
clared by them, that they did not intend to go upon any
proselytising principles ;• but some years alter their in-,
stitution they united their effert4 with those of another
society for the diffusion of religious instruction Called
the London Bible Society, who pretended to be what the
Kildare-street Society pretended not to be—proselytisers.
It very much altered the case when in 1812 the Govern-
taunt took the Society iu baud, and when they found
that it had not the least confidence of the Roman
Catholic population. BeSire the present system of
national education was established, a full and searchine
inquiry was made into the state of Ireland generally: In
the Committee of 1830, 11r. Musgrove was asked whether
the success of any s3berne would depend entirely OTt.the,
exclusion of sectarian or religious controversy ? Be said
he bad established two school., nud-ha.i told the people
that if they wished to read the Scriptures they could do
so, hut ho would nut insist upon it. He thought. it ,
likely that under that system the number of scriptural
readers would ultimately be increased, but not in else first
instance. Captain Rolt_Ovvert gave exactly similaraesti-
. mossy. Mr. Barrios stated that this condition of oblige-,
tory Scriptare reading led to difficulties. It had trot a
tendeucy to increase Scripture 'reading, quite the con-
trary; there never wee a more effectual way of discou-.
raging the reading of the Scriptures. Again, Mr. Denier
said that he had lonc been of ()pinkie that compulsory:
reading was not likely to attain the object- for which it.
was intended. Hero wera three successive testimonies ex
actly to the same effect, but there was another testimony
which was invaluable, that of R. R. Doyle, Roman Ca-
tholic Prelate, who said that the societies in Dublin
which had been founded to promote education were
attended by none of the Roman Catholics. They had
been the sources of numerous complaints between its-
. feriors and superiors. Altegether they have been pro-
ductive of much evil and dieeord, and he thought it de.-
sirabie that they should be put an end to. There was
not one particle of evidence on the other side ; but the
testimony entirely confirmed the -Opinion which he had
formed, that. various jealousies were produced by the
Kildare school. This was a pritid facie ground for
saying that_ the system ought to be- altered. In the
very last report as to the Kildare-street schools, he
fond it stated that 240 of these, schools were in Mun-
ster, 112 in Connaught, 247 in Leinster, and 2,112 in
Protestant Ulster. In the report-on this subject which
was made two years ago, he found, that Oct of the whole
number who attended these schools, more than halt'
were<Roman Catholics. Considering, then, what was
the whole population . of Ireland, was it not manifest
than schools attended in equal numbers by Roman
Cat&slics and Protestants, must be schools which did
not give equal benefits .to the whole' population? He
hadinat heard from any Honourable Gentleman who
had spoken one single proposal to substitute anything
else. .He would not enter into a defence of the
existing system of schools; he would say they had
Worked incomparably better than any system which had
Preceded theta in Ireland. What. were the means of
, *education which it was possible to adopt'? It was cer-
tainly possible to give secular education. It was equally
possible to establish schools for the exclusive benefit of
e*. the Protestants. That, he apprehended, was not desired
. ,..alternative
gentleman in the Hoase.. What, then, was the
nlwati:re ? Only one. They had it in their power to
follow
, the system that, under different circumstances,
bad, to a certain extent, been carried on in England, and
• establish separale schools for Roman Catholic and Pro-
testent education. lie
cation to be a very t ought the system of united' edu-
important one. But he had another
an
objection, and that
I,,iinsgertia:at one. He said that in
the part of Ireland
ac-
quainted—that in two-thirds iv
ofc-Ireland,
olharnenadt
nh,himself throughoutwas
the
wide-spread country in which the popu•
lation had a predominant
3n sole effect of
establishing separate schools for Protestants and Roman
Catholics would be toeleprive the Protestant population
of the benefit of education aealla In the neighbourhood
r
with which he was acquainted; Tipperary, the -
y, the Roman
Catholic population was in the proportion of 200 to 1.
ale they were to establish separate schools they victim not
be able to get a sufficient number. of Protestant children.
In order to establish a school<for .200 they would have
to bring them a distance of twenty miles. Therefore, he
said, the only system which ,he had yet heard any pro-
penal to substitute for that which now existed was ins.
, practicable and -undesirable, audTeeling that be should
vote against the motien.
• - Lord. JOHN MANNERS said that in the few ob-
servations which he should offer to the House he should
*Wain. from saying one word as to the merits of the
respective systems of education that had prevailewani
Ireland. The question before the Bouse.was, what
. the best prectical educational system? That was in some
degree a Church question. The difference between
the educational systems of England and Ireland was
extremely perplexing. He entertained great 'doubts
whether the system in Ireland was a combined system
of education; llu thought that whee they talked of the
combined system they talked of a system which virtually
did not
,exist. Ip the tows of Armagh there were two
schoele. • The Oneentirely was devoted to Roman
Catholic ct-
hil I .ren, anti the other to the children of. Pro:
testaiite• tiff., man could be compelled to do that to
which .his confcieece , objected. Oise man says that the
Shute can provide a ey stein to educate all the children
iu the country; end another man doubts that. One
mast epee voting reouey for. educational pus -
Pines its Ire.lantl, paid Vera . Government was
bound to utsregard the of
and "^thev sd'aid th" To" rye. .41'; a Memthbeer poefolt)lhee
uninel Churcl, of Eoglautl and Ireland, he could not be.
la.lia dietT".r.ent te, the feelings of the Church of Ireland. and
U /4e vent table primate of that Church, and 1,700
of the clergy
petition end, laity expressed their sentiments in a
to thus douse, 11,1 hoped that' they would not be
disregarded. hey tasked for equal justice and
facilities for their own children, and, con-
curring in
'stews he wc old give his hearty support
to the motion. • ' -
Mr. FIAGAN said that -s
tech a change as that de-
sired in the system of edoca don in Ireland would be
extremely darkg9roYs. Iq Ibis gountry each association

recelving- money-grants from Government, confined
themselves to educating their own children, but that
was not the case with the Church Education Society in
Ireland. The Kildare-street Society was abolished for
refusing to carry out a system of education, unless
under certain restrictions. The same exclusive prin-
ciples actuated the Church Education Society in Ire-
land, .
ss e the
motion.
a noidi,o
na.n d up
Thereon that
wegrerouvnadrinus
alone
hoethewroulrdeliogiloPuo
so-
cieties, who were pledged not to carry out. education,
except under their own peculiar tenets. If
,they granted
the aid required to the Church, then every other religi-
ous society would be entitled to demand it.—(Hear,
hear.) The national system was a most admirable
system, considering that it was founded
upon the old
system. He considered that religious instruction was
abundantly accorded by all religious denominations to
their children in Ireland. The Roman-Catholics held
that the Scriptures should not be put into the hands of
children of tender years as a schoolebook. There were
now 800 schools in Ireland where the Bible alone was
taught, and 800 .others in which Bible and Scripture
lessons were both taught. That made 1,600 out of 4,400
were.the Scriptures were taught. Therefore the Hon.
Member was not justified in stating that the Scripture
was not taught in the schohls in 'lreland. It was a
mistake to say that the Catholic clergy were opposed to
the high scientific and literary instruction imparted by
1 the national system. For these reasons he must oppose
the motion.
Sir HARRY! VERNEY said that the national edu-
cation which had been lately introduced into Ireland wa',
so far as he could learn, attended with no benefiCial re-
sult. He contended that the Hibernian Society schools
were of the greatest benefit to Ireland, and that the pre-
sent system was fur inferior to that which preceded it.
Again, he would refer to the Kildare-street Socie.y, and
he was prepared to prove that never wa; any system of
education so , beneficial or so much admired by the Ro-
man Catholic parents of the children attending those
schools. Ho then referred to the thousands of Roma,
Catholic children who attended those schools, and who
were known to have been educated, not only in the ge-
neral sptem of temporal interests, but their motel edu-
cation was fully approved of by the gentry in their re.
spective neighbourhoods. lie would ask the Irish Mem-
bers and the Government whether there was any tate-
giance_on a late occasion evinced by those Who had been
educated at the national schools which were in existence
for the last' eighteen years without producing any fruit
or benefit whatever?
Mr. HEALD said that he felt it his conscientious duty
to support the motion'-of th'e lion. Member (Mr. G. A.
Hamilton), for he considered that the money to be
afforded to the national system of education was not
distributed to all parties in Ireland, no matteewhartheir
religious opinions might be. He should say that the
objection .raised by the Hon. Member for Cork (Mr.
Fagan) could have no weight on the House, fur it is the
peculiar characteristic of Christians that the members of
every religious persuasion should exert themselves to
gain to their creed every one whom they considered was
in error, and he was glad to say that the Noble Earl
(Earl of Arundel and Surrey) very justly advccated the
same principle on a very late ; occasion. _ Ile was asto-
nished that any member in that House should deny that
the. Established Church in Ireland was not an integral
part of the Church of this country, for, he would ask,
was not the doctrine of the one Church the same as that
of the othenee(Hear, hear)—and were not the interests
of both churches, the English and Irish, identifiel?
This, he contended, served as a proof that they were one
and. the same in. interests and benefits, and that on these
grounds he should support the motion.
Lord J. RUSSELL-Sir, the subject now before us is
sufficiently important and difficult to induce us not to
mix with it any question with regard to the Church
Establishment in this country or in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) The question now before us concerns a system
of education which is aided and supported by grants
voted in this House. and collected from the taxes paid
generally by the people of the United Kingdom, and is,
therefore, •a question totally apart from any question
that may be stated or debated with respect to the Church
-Establishment in Ireland.—(llear, hear.) , With respect
to this question then, I should say, in the first place,
that in disposing of - these grants, as a matter of justice
we ought to make the benefits of the education which
we give as extensive as possible.—(Hear, hear.) We
ought to 'diffuse as widely as- possible among the - chil-
dren the benefits of the education that we propose to
aid, and it would not be - a fair and just application of
the money thus derived from the taxes if upon any nar-
'row and" exclusive principle we were to distribute
these grants. Bat, in the next pacer, as a matter of
policy and expediency, I should say, if you wish
your grants to be useful—if you wish to diffuse the bene-
fits of instruction upon secular subjects, in morality, and
in religion, amongst the people of -Ireland, that it should
be your object to have such a' system as would not pro-
voke opposition and jealousy in the' very outset and
cothmencement, and that yOu should endeavour to avoid
all those rules and regulations which may induce the
suspicion that you are attempting to convert that which
is:the largest, the most numerous, and the poorest sec-
tion of the people of Ireland to the religion of that-other
section which has in its hands the greatest proportion of
the power of the 'state in this country, which is the
richest in Ireland, and which,' by endowments and other-
wise, is moat likely to use its power fur tho purposes of
proselytisin.—(tlenr, hear.) Both on the ground of
justice and policy, 'therefore, if you mean to be just and
fair towards the people of Ireland--if you mean to dilTuse
education as widely as possible—it is your bounden duty
to avoid giving your grants in such a manner as may in-
duce the belief that y,,u mean, in proposing, to promote
education, to convert the children of goman 'Catholic
parents to the religfoo o late Protestants. Tho• Hon.
Gentleman who has just addresied the Housre inde,d,
speaking of the earneetnesewith which religion should be
inculcated, says that he has no ohjection to proselytism.
Ho avows that proselytism would be a part -of
his object; but if that were the case, his very ob-
ject,. I submit to him, would be detested, because
immediately that you declare ti-the Roman Catholic
clergy and laity of Ireland that your purpose is not to
give them a good education,- but that your purpose is
proselytism, they are themselves against that purpose,
and your grant becomes a grant given only to a small
portion of the people, for those who•dread that prosely-
tiser], or who consider it a fiend upon them to attempt it
under the guise of school learning, will indignantly re.
ject it.—(Hear.) Now, if -these etc right principles,
then we come to that which I shall certainly not venture
to attempt to explain to the House alter the able state-.
merit which we have heard • from the Hon. Gentleman
( sir. Stanley), who has not only shown great ability in
dtfince 'of this cause, but in addition to that great ability
has an hereditary right to defend the, cause of education.
—(Hear, hear.) In adverting to the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last, I must refer to the vary clic-
ferent conclusion which was arrived at by the CoMinis-
sinners of education—l believe a Commission originally
Leeun by one to whom I am nearly related, the Diike of
Bedford, when Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and after-
wards continued. [The Noble Lord then read an extract
from the report of that Commission, to the effect that
they indulged more confident anticipations of success if
all interference with the particular religious tenets of
those who were to receive instruction in the national
1 ai m ed
thisan
to ho schools were, in the first instance, unequivocally
disclaimed and effectually
importanceded again
g to t; that a n y
theynetv
conceived i
establishment for the education :of the lower daises in
Ireland; and they expressed their unanimous opinion
that no such plan, however wisely and unexceptionably
contrived in other respect., could be carried into effec-
tual execution in that country unless it were explicitly
avowed and clearly understood 'as its leading principle
that no attempt should be made to influence or disturb
the peculiar religious tenets of any sect or description
Of persons.] ' This was the conclusion arrived at by men
who were distinguished ornaments of the united Churches
of England and Ireland, and who had, in addition to
their attachment to the principles of their Church,' a
knowledge of the condition of the people of Ireland, with
whom in
they had to deal, and knew what would be a co-.
plete and effectual bar to the success of any plan that
might be proposed. Now, considering the whole his-
tory of past events,' and the history also of voluntary
societies, it is no wonder that the Catholic clergy and
laity should be peculiarly jealous—that they- should be.
peculiarly sensitive in regard to any plan of national
education for that country. And when they heard that
the Bible, according to the authorised version of the Pro-
testants, was to be resd in these schools, that they shotild
regard it with suspicion, as an attempt to seduce them from
the religion of their fathers, and induce them to adopt
the Protestant religion, was, I must say, natural and
almost inevitable.---(Hear, hear.). With this view, then,
Lord Stanley, in founding the present eductional system
in 'lreland, declared that all suspicion of proselytism
Must be carefully guarded against. Well, these schools
were thus established, sad aided by grants made by this
Weise, and what has been their progress? From 107,000
Children taught in these schools in the year 1833, they
have advanced to 480,000 children in 1849.--e(flear,
hear.) They have established admirable normal and
model schools' in Dublin and elsewhere, and agricultural
schools in various parts of the country, thus aiding and
assisting not only in the promotion of religious learn-
ing, but likewise in the knowledge of those arts which
are most likely to advance the people of Ireland in in-
dustry
7 and civilization.—(Hear, hear.) They have,
retort+, after seventeen years' experience
strong &mind
for asking the support
of this House. They come before
you with a strongtheir
case for the further support and con-
think, entitled to
thsystem. They come before you, I
'overwhelming case
ft:, that unless there bo made oat an
'should say, " We havreinbterfering with that system, you
which the various sects or n long- in search of a plan by
bined education in Ireland. .h‘rvistians would receive cony-
have at length arrived
at
,a system which . in the coursee
'Come to this point, that
halt'
a
, of seventeen years has,
maintained in those schools and receivwencdof children are
them. We will not intemperately
or
hu‘tillicatbin within
discard such
system, but allow it to go on, and see if it a . will not bear
fruits-which will be highly advantageous to the people
of Ireland."-;-(Elear.) The Zion. Gentleman who ro-
-poses to' enterfere with this system does se, lien; upon
the
,ground which has always appeared to rue to be a
...
ground 'which, though plausible,- is entirely. unteastbie,
namely—the- conscientious .scruples of the Protestant'
clergy and laity. Now, I could understand very well
that the parents, whether' Protestant or Catholic; niny
sly, " Here is a system of education which interferes
with thy religious belief, and does not allow my child to
receive that education which I conceive to be necessary\
and you should not'by public grants force one t s support
this, aysteue" But the objection m. ade by the' lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Heald)is.entirely of a different nature:.
It is not that children, being Protestants, are obliged to
receive an education which is not Protestant, bat that
children of a different faith are not compellei to receive
an education which is sufficient for Protestant children.—.
("No, no," from the Conservative bencher.) That cer-
tainly was what I understood by the proposition made
in former years, and by the proposition made this year.
Upon the-testimony of persons of great authority, that

is, in fact, the principal objection which has been taken
It was the Bishop of Cashel, I think, who at a Meeting
in Dublin, declared that a Protestant child might
receive in the national schools a good Protestant educa-
tion; but what he objected to was, that the Bible was
not admitted as a school-book in the schools in which
Roman Catholic children were taught.—(Hear, hear.)
I hold in my hand a pamphlet written by Mr. Sadler, a
clergyman, in which he gives _an account of his own
school, and who, on being asked if he would become the
patron of a national school, said he agreed . to it, and
then be describes what is done in that school in
the way of religious education. (The Noble Lord here
read an extract from the pamphlet, which stated that
the children in the school were daily taught to read
portions of Scripture which contained the essential doc-
trines of the Gospel, and that when the school hours
terminated they retired to separate rooms for the pur-
pose of receiving the religious instruction approved
_of
by their parents.) After this, I think no person is en-
titled to say that the Protestant child is obliged to re-
ceive a religious education which is at variance with the
conscience of his parents. There are some of these
schools from which peculiar religious instruction is ex-
cluded, but this, I believe, has been done at the request '
of the more zsalous Protestants, who would not
agree that Roman Catholio instruction should
he given in an establishment for the maintenance of
which public money has been granted. But, gene-
rally speaking, the rules whittle: are contained in the
last report of the Commissioners are that the.pecaliar re-
ligions instruction may be given at a certain interval
alter the school hours, upon ,condition only that the
Bible in the Protestant version shall not be read as is
school-book.during school hours.—(Hear, beer.) If this
be se, then it is perfectly plain that to the first proposal
of the Hon. Gentleman the modification that he asks is
not a modification that the religious education of Pro-
testants may be better provided-for, but a modification
which will be contrary tee the. wishes, and, which will
arouse the suspicions of the Roman Catholics by declar-
ing that the Bible shall be read in the schools, not only
for the sake of the Protestant children, but for the sake
of theßoman Catholic childrea'who belong to those
schools. I say that* if. you were to introduce such a
change as that, you would at once strike a fatal blow at
the whole system. Those jealousies which have been el- :
layed, and those suspicions which are now sleeping,
would at once. be again aroused. , You .would have
300,000 or 400,000 of those children taken away from
the schools, anti all your hopes of a united education for'
the people of Ireland would thus be blasted.—(Hear,
hear.), But then it is said, " If you do not approve of
any modification of your plan, let the national schools
remain as they are, conducted according to the .na-
tional system, but make a separate grant for the sake of
the children belonging to the Established Church of
Ireland. • IC is very plausible to say that that is what is
done in England—that that is your system ' here—and
why not therefore adopt it in Ireland? But I see no
farce in the objection that these is a difference of system
in England and Ireland. What I wish to see effected
is the greatest degree of good that is practicable; and if
I-find that, according to one system, the moat good is
practicable in England, and that, according to another
system, the most good is practicable in Ireland, I will
take the system that effects the most good. If you say
that the members of the Church of Ireland, who are as
one-sixth or one-seventh of the population, and at the
same time the possessors of the- greatest proportion of
the property of that country, shall-have- a separate grant,
how will you deny to the Roman Catholic Bishops,
who wish likewise for separation, a similar grant for
Roman Catholic schools, as separate and as exclusive?
-- (Hear, hear.) Considering the advantages which
you have in Ireland—considering the means which the '
Church of Ireland now ,possessess—considering that
Archbishop M•Hale and others are as strongly
fir separate education as any of, the bishops and clergy
of the
.Established Church , of Ireland— how could
you deny to them their separate schools, conducted ac-
cording to Roman Catholic maxims, and exclusively and
rigidly worked, by the Raman Catholic clergy ?—(llear.)
01 the advance of 120,000/. for educational purposes,
you would perhaps have to give 20,000/. to the Estab-
lished Church, 'whilst 100,00 N. would be given exclu-
sively to Roman ' Catholic schools. And who can tell
me what will be the course of education iu these Roman
Catholic schools; when they are entirely set loose from
this system of mixed education, which has taught there
to know and to love their Protestant brethren, and to
act upon the precepts of the Christian. religion? 'Do not
think that the effects will be the same in' Ireland that
you see in England, where the grant is apportioned to
the Church of England, to the British and Foreign
School Society;to the Wesleyans, and the Roman 'Ca-;
tholics. In Ireland; you have it finally different. In
that country, where there has been so much of separation
and animosity, you would see that animosity revives,
and fostered • by restoring the ' separate system e
and yet it would be impbssible to atop. If you say that
you will have a separate grant for the Established,
Church, it will be impossible fur you to stop there and ,
say that to it, and,to it elope shall this separate grant be.
made—that to no- other religious persuasion in Ireland
will you give the same advantage. •, You would thus be
introducing an injustice, you would thus to raising an
exclusion with respect to a new system which we have",
so much t i deplore with respect to the system that has
long been established.—(Hear.) The adventages that I
look for from this grant is, that, being a matter of very
recant introduction, founded upon grants by Parliament o
to which no one has a claim, except on the ,rounds of 1
general justice and p ,licy, you have it entirely in your
own hands to distribute that sum, in the way that will
produce the grc latest inflaenee on the future progress of
Ireland. You have it in your power to say that you VI i 11
metre it the means of reconciling persona of different re-
ligions, of saying that your rule in Ireland is just, and that
it is not because one person is called a Protestant, another
4 Presbyterianoind another a Roman Catholic, that you
will depart from your rule of doing equal justice.
That rule has been lately established. It is working
well, and it will be your own fault if it be departed fom.
I hope, there fire, on all these considerations, that -tile
House will not agree to make any change in the grant as •
it has hitherto been distributed-4 hope they will sup-
port the Commission of Education, comprising, ass it
does, men of greet eminence, thouete of different reli-
gions, like Archbishop Whately and Archbishop Murray.
—(Hear, hear.) One of the complaiiste made is that the
clergy at the Church of Ireland receive no support, ceun-
tsnance, or favour from the State, unless they are friends
of the national system of education; but I beg to observe,
that the clergy who are declared to be hostile to this
plan of education, are not excluded from the most valu-
able beaefices or preferments of the greatest value in
Ireland, ,in coitsequerice of their opposition. If it were
true that the Statahad the mooopely of all the benefices
that might be the case.- But . she fact is that generally
speaking the bishops have the "far greater portion of '
the patronage of the Church. I .find that in Armagh
the Crown has four. livings and the primate 49, -that
in the dioCese of I erns the Crown has 1 living and 'the
bishop 44sand that in Cashel the Crown has 3 livings
and the bishop 34.7--(Hear.),l do not think, therefore,
that the worldly prospects of these gentlemen are blighted,
in the manner which has beers repreiented. Where the
Crown does not favour them, , the bishop, generally
speaking, prefers them; and I do not find fault with him'
for that. - But if I do not find fault with him, neither is
the Crown to be condemned nor Censured, if—in the di..g"
posal of such .patronage as may fall. to the Crown, when
the dispenser 6f-that patronage meets a man of piety,
learning, and character, who is favourable to the system
csf.national edecation—they prefer him to one who is its
decided ' opponent—(Hear, hear.) I think, therefore,
that upon every groudd theTeis no reason for the claim
that has been ' preferred. I regret 'deeply to ob-
serve that the clergy of the Church of Ireland still
entertain such strong repugnance to the national
system of education in that country. I think that the
clergy of the Church of Ireland, in consideration of
their merits id every respect, but especially for the
charitable exertions they made during the late painftil
years of famine and distress, are deserving of every rt -
spect on the part' of this House. I am concerned, there.
fore, that, upon this subject I should be compelled to
differ from them; and were it not that I think their
wishes are opposed to the genenal 'welfare of the people
of Ireland, and that we should be committing a serious
inroad upon our system of education, I should be glad to
comply with the desire they have.expressed. But seeing
that such serious consequences must result—seeing that
' many schemes and plans for Ireland have often failed in
ourhands—seeing that this is a platens established by Lord
Stanley in 1832, which has had good success—which has
prospered, and which promises to strengthen religion-
-to promote good conduct and obedince to the laws
amongst the people of Ireland—l earnestly cull upon-the
Hoisie to'give it their support, end not to consent to
abridge its efficiency.
. Lord CLAUDE HAMILTON would not address the
House on the present occasion were it not that he had
a public duty to perform to those who had chosen him
as their representative. He was anxious to correct a'
mistake into which tho Hon. Member for Cork (Mr.
'Fagan) had fallen, in stating that the bishops of the
' Established Church were opposed to the national system
of education in Ireland. So far from that being the case,
seven out of the twelve were in favour of it. With re-
spect to the Noble Lord who bad been referred to as fa-
vourable to, this system—Lord Stanley—no one could
fur 'a moment doubt that the Noble Lord bad regarded'it
as a great social experiment, and that he had given to it
all the attention of his mind, with a hope and view of
hear.)
Be4urtrYtihnegreotwit heertegrseyatstmemistaskueesceesosmfumlliti—ed(i[nie.atrh'e atlas-
;ice on this subject in relation to the children in various
parts of Ireland of the different denominations of Chris-
tians. 'No doubt, it was deniable, if practicable, to have
the children-of the several religious deoomitiationseaset
together within the walls of . one school-room; but the
system had been tried, and he did not hesitate to say
,t 'thatnd ti
lit
at
aist notwas t
farlt e b .
freosmt -
being system'
a t h
pa
et
rf:couldt s
ybset
eamd o. p t
He d,
He
invite I those who boasted' so much of the accuracy of
the statistics of the national. education system, us; in ope-
ration in Ireland, to try and. proye, that accuracy, and
he thought be could be able to show that their Caleula-
tions were fallacions.. '
Sir J. GR.A.H AM said be was a member of the Go-
vernment along with Lord Seinlty amid the Noble Lord
,opposite who had proposed he eational system; and,
therefor•, althozgh he could not hope to add anything to
what had been said by the N.,lolti Is.erd and other speakers,
he felt bound to address the House, for the purpose of
declaring his coi.tiuned adhesibil to that sS stein. lie
most cordially agreed with the Noble Lord the Member.
for Tyrone that relisious instruCtion was the beat pos-
sible cure foi the faistest part of ti.e social and-moral
evils of Ireland; but it seemed 'to him that the Noble
Lord, in insisting upon that, put altogether apart Roman
Catholic religious instruction, as a thing not to be re-
garded in' treating the question. lie .(Sir J. Gra-
ham) altogether and entirely, dissented from that does
trine.'—(Hear, hear.) The Nobhi*Lord in analysing the'
proportion of -Roman Catholic children at these schools
in Ulster talked of the small proportion of Protestants to
be found in them, but did th-i Noble Lord mean to set,
aside the Presbyterians ?—(Hear) —and -was not the
national system adopted by them in that part of the

country as completely as it was accepted by the Roman
Catholics 'in the other parts of Ireland ? —(Hear,,
hoer.) Ile (Sir James Graham) regretted—deeply
regretted—that the members of the Church of &a;-
land had not derived all the advantages from the
schools under this system of which it had been,
proved they. were susceptible of imparting; but why
Ras this the case, and what caused it? ,It was simply
because the clergymen of the Church of England in Ire-
land, he was sorry to say, had led the way in a spirit of
uncompromising hostility against the national system.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had read the statements
Of a clergyman who attended the school in his own
parieb, and he hid tald the House that the result was,
that though the Protestant and Catholic children were
instructed in the history of their religion, it could not
be described as religious instruction.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member who had brought forward the motion
had described the national system of education in Ire-
land as latitudinarian, and he (Sir J. Graham) admitted
that a greater objection could not be made to it, sup-
posing the objection to be well founded. But if he was
not mistaken, there existed most irrefragable proofs tai
the contrary. An annual examination of the children of
all the parochial echool's of- Dublin took place in the
June of every year, and the Society for the Suppression
of Vice acd the Promotion of Religious Education in
Marlborough-street gave premiums to thew best versed
in the Sacred Scriptures on that occasion t , those
children educated in the tenets of the Established
Church. Those examinations were made by Protestant
cl what was the fact? Iu June, 1849. the
numberergyinn eoichillod7ren from all the Protestant schools of Dub-
in, sent up for this examination, was 297; the num-
ber of those who received premiums was 99, and of this
number. 9 out of 24 Children sent up from the National
Model School of Dublin were among the recipients of
premiums. With facts like this before the House, was
it possible to say that Protestant children, though
brought,up with , Roman Catholics in the national
schools, under the national system, might not obtain
the best education in the tenets and history of their own
religion. He held it to be indisputably, proved that they
could; and be therefore only regretted that PrOtestant
clergymen of the Established Church should persevere
in their opposition to that system on grounds so
-thoroughly untenable. -The Noble Lord at the head of
the Government had been taunted with applying all the
patronage of the Church in the hands of Government in
Ireland t) the furtherance of the national system of
education in that country. It was not for him (Sir J.
Graham) to defend the Noble Lord—ho was well able
to do that himself; but the Government of which .he
(Sir J. Graham)
was a member had taken quite an op-
-1 polite course, distributing the Church patronage in Ire-
I land indifferently amobg time., clergymen whom they
deemed best fitted fir ecclesiastical preferment. But
hew had the prelates so preferred acted in, respect
to the national system—how had they exercised
the patronage with with which they were in-
trusted in reference to that system? If he Lad
been rightly informed,
they had uniformly used their
utmost exertions in the support and maintenance and
promotion of those clergymen most opposed to the doc-
trines of that system.—(clear, hear.) Something had
been said with regard to the conscientious scruples of
1 the members of the Church of England in the matter by
the Hon. Member fir Dublin; but ho (Sir J. Graham)
I would ask wai the system cf education pursued in
Trinity College of an exclusively Protestant cbaractsr?
' —(Hear, hear
,), He admitted, in the distribution of
honours, emoluMents, and rewards, that college was most
[--exclusive—(Bear, hear)—but as regarded education, he
todenied altogether that it was exclusive. On the contrary,
he believethat, with the exception of an examination
!upon entrance in.the Greek Testament, not on points of
1 doctrine, but in 'scanning verses, Until a degree was tale- n
there was no conpulsory interference with reading, as
regarded the Scriptures or in respect to a religious edu-
cation.—(flear ht ar.) There was another fact: in all
the workhouies of Ireland there were echools in con-
nexion with the national system of education. All these
workhouses, however, had Protestant chaplains. If
those religious scruples alluded to by the Honourable
Member were, binding upon the universal body of the
clergy of the Established Church in Ireland, it would
of course be impossible to find chaplains for the work-
houses.—(Hear, hear.) These chaplains, nevertheless,
attended the schools, in the several workhouses, and
aided in carrying out the system.—(Hear, hear.) It was
true there was one little circumstance to be taken into
account in these cases upon which, howeier, he did not
desire to lay too great a stress—there was a salary at-
.tached to each chaplainship.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
It might be said that the building was desecrated by the
performance of the Roman Catholic service within its
walls; hutlhat was found to bele; objection to the chap-
lain.—(Hear and laughter.) Again, there were the gaols
in Ireland,' to which there were'chapels attached for the
calebraVen of D.vine service. Was the Protestant ser-
vice; ttScording to the iituel of the Established Church,
excrusively celebrated iu these chapels? By no means
..(Hear)—mass, according to the forms of the Roman
Catholic worship, was celebrated *there also. Still
there was no scruple on the part of the Protestant cler-
gymen to accept the Mlle J of gaol chaplains.—(Hear and
laughter.) There was also a salary attached in this
caete—(Llear and laughter.) With reference to the
question of scruples, it was therefore impossible to
overlook these Leta—(hear, hear.) In the shape in
which the question was brought before the House,
it was put in an alternative form, either the system
should be modified, or an exclusive grant should be made
to the Eita‘dished Church. , A modification of the
' system, however, mount an enforced reading of the
Scriptures in these schools feom the authorised version.
. —(bear, hear.) It meant that or it meant nothing, and
1 he believed the lion. 151emter for Dublin would bear
him out that this was what was intended by Et modification.
1 But if that was adopted the Government might as well
declare at once that the national System of education in
[
Irsiand was extitiguishsd ; fir once that modification
wsinsi,t2d on--4rom thus moment the schools would
,be completely deserted by the Roman Catholic children
.of the.country.-e-(blear, hear.) If they gave to one par-
ticular religion a separate branch from the Roman
Catholic, that would make the systerredifTerthat from the
national system ie Ireland. Ile would ask them, there-
fore, to consider welt what they were doing. The Lion.
Gentleman had appealed first to the justice and then to
the policy of what be proposed. But if they, were to
Make that 'change they ought to make it on a princ:ple
of justice; and thot,weuldderaand that, if.they made any
exclusive grape- fsr educetion according to the princi-
ples of the Established Churcls, to the amount of 10,0001.
or 12,0904 they would be obliged to make a grant to an
extent of about 80,00QL for.-the Romeo Catholics. They
bYa penal code, to expel what was called a
adoctrine, snd that attempt was a harsh and
chirauldleablc.ieo oguntisn; e.---: (fltsr,. hear.) The present attempt had
been •made as a aubstitute fir that system, and it bad
been intended- to' give by it a united education to both
Protestants and R. pah-Ctitholits. By that they sought
to .'estabffsh in a more Christian manner that which Imo
previously been attempted by other means. If 480,000
persons were deriving the benefit of the national system
of education in Ireland, while 400,000 of those might be
Roman' Catholics, there,were 80,0.00 who we:n members
of the Established (Church.—(Hear, hear.) He could
help behoving
allthe fruits
leving that although that system might not
that might have been at first
promised n,, eo
sea
d from it, yet its success had been signal—(Hear,
nothraih
hear.) , And he believed there was no Roman Catholic
country in Europe (for Ireland it could not be denied was
a Roman Catholic country)—(Hear, hear)—where, by
the consent of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, any edu-
cation so Scriptural as that under the national system
in-Ireland wits tolerated.-er(Llcarshear;) He would ask
them, then, were they to disturb that system? He had
heard With inexpressible satizEiction his young friend
!vier him (Mr' Stanley) defend that system which his
noble father had supported. He might say of his young
friend— - - _ _ _ __

Ascanium surgentem et spas keredis Jali
Itespice.7 • • •
(Hear, hear.) He entreated Hon. Gentlemen at that
(the Opposition) side of the House to pause before they
,displaced that great monument of the success of Lord
Stanley's statestnanship.and wisdom.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir J. Graham) had watched the national system of
eduCation in Ireland with much anxiety. Amid the
darkness which hung over that country, it was the-only
bright spot. ..He entreated them not to overshadow that
light, not to 'extinguish that Promethean heat, which it
might be impossible to resuscitate.—(Hear-) They had
thought and talked of similarity of institutions. That
was a dangerous topic—(Hear, hear, frenn the Ministerial
side)—to touch upon. There could not be an equality
of institutions while the Established Church of Ireland
was note that of the majority of the people of that
country.—(Henr, hear.) The only grant which they
had ever.offerel.the Roman Catholics of that country in
the nature of an endowment, was that which they had
given for the sustainment of the system of national edu •
cation. If they.made it an exclusive grant, however. in
terms, he believed there were many of the Roman Ca-
tholic prelates and priesthood, who would rejoice at the
succeis of the motion of the Member for the University
of Dublin. In conclusion he would warn them against
overthrowing that system about which he acknowledged
he so much ianxiety, and be would give an unhesitat-
ing vote againat the motion of the Hon. Gentleman.—
(Cheer's from the .kliniSterial side.)
Mr. NAPIER tupported the resolution of his Hon.
Fiend the "Member for the University of Dublin, and
could not lielP.e4ressing his deep regret and pain at
the taunt thrown out by the Right Hon. Baronet the
Men,lber for Ripon, that-the Protestant clergy were
actuated by . •tre:Tcenary motivev•---(Cheers
from the Opposition.) Ile wanted to knew what answer
was to give to the Protestants of Ireland when they
said the It•Mian Catholics of England get a share of the
GovernMent grant for education, and their' asked why
the Established Church in Ireland should not be equally
'favoured? l- Was not complained in the case of the
Roman Cathblica that their schools were proselytisin4;
why ahoiald 'the same- principle not be applied to the
Protestants in Ireland, who had to pay their proportion
of that grant ?-;-(dear, hear.) Was conscience to be
respected in .England . and not in Ireland ? Were
those .who did not insist on scriptural education to
receive Government assistance in England, while
those who liud slways—who now did•L-firoaly upheld
scriptural educati ;n, were refused it simply because they
lived in Irel And ? 11c asked if that was justice
(llcar_, hear.) . The Nuble Lord who had made. a
most Christina- speech in oppocition to the Smul.ir
ca ion Bill of the' lion. Alember for Oldham, the other
day had abluiloned that principle on the present ec,m.
• slim, and insisted that in Ireland they should merely
t4lca cognizaraec of secular Education. If either Prot sr
tams or Roman Catholics came over to this country,
they would be,entitied to share, in the public grants.
Al!, in fact, were' so entitled, except those who denied
de
religion 'altogether, aad thus they came to the conclu-
sion, that in Ireland the members of the Pretestant Es-
tablished Chuteh' ro e*posed tti the same exclusion and
the same .stigma as those altonied nl
eel l;lou,
(Hear.) But he ptit it to the Noble Lord the Member
for King's Lynn, who so ably represented his father,
if it was the intemion of his noble relation to exclude the
Protestants of Ireland from all participation in these

grants? Ho belived that Noble-Lord was most desirous
to establish a system of united education, but the result
was, according to the report of the Commissioners
on. the subject, when it was tried, that scrip-
tural combined education was impracticable, and
that secular must be kept apart from scriptural instruc-
tion. The consequence was, that instead of schools
being open to all, as was intended by the Noble Lord,
the conditions laid down excluded a large number of
Protestant children from these schools.—( Fleur, hear.)
The practical arrangements were of such a character as
to exclude all religious education from the common in-
struction given in the schools. When religious instruction
was to be given, a large board was exhibited stating the
fact, and the Roman Catholic children left them. la se-
cular instruction they had unity, but when the name of
God was mentioned, when prayer or praise was to be
offered up to the Creator, then came separation and iso-
lation.—(hear, hear.). That was what was celled deno-
minational . education. The Right Hon. Beronet tee
Member for Ripon said he did not understand that term,
but he found in a former speech of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet that he advocated education under the superin-
tendence of the Church exclusivety.—(Bear, hear.)
Those were the opinions of the Right lion. Baronet when
he was a younger man, and he believed they were opi-
nions in which honourable men would more readily coin-
cide than they would with -his present views.—(flear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had
given similar opinions, and he thought he could not ad-
duce better authority. If the word of God was fixed and
certain, he would ask it it was to be changed with the
changing whims ‘,and inroads of politicians and states-
men? A question had been raised; whether it n as pos-
sible to get clergymen al.eays to superintend these
schools; but that was not the point at issue. The ques-
tion was, whether they should not have the parochial
schools in Ireland under the same superintendence, and
conducted on the same principle as these schools were in
Eugland? Why should we have one rule for the Church
of Ireland, and another for the Church of England, when
according to law they were a united Church?—(Hear,
hear.) It appeared that there were not 100 clergymen
in Ireland who hal joined these schools, but it was not
therefore to be inferred that the Bishops imposed any
test on the clergy. The Noble Lord had referred to the
report of the Commission of 1830, but the system was
very different as proposed by the Prcletes at that time.
They proposed to have parochial schools under the
superintendence of the clergy, but they proposed alse
to have supplementary scboels, in which lessons con-
sisting of extracts from the authorised version of the
Holy Scriptures were to 'be read daily.—(Divide, and
cheers.) The real question was not whether the na-
tional system was right or wrong; but conceding that it
was right, for argument sake, they had come to the de-
cision that all denominations of Christians should have
the power of teaching the Scriptures according to their
own conscience.—(Hear, hear.) • Well, then he would
ask was education an imperial or a local question? If
"it was an imperial quests n, why should the Churchmen
of Ireland alone be excluded from its benefits? The
Right lion. Baronet the Member for Ripon had do-
queatly expressed his hopes of a better future for Ire-
land, from the continuance and spread of education; bat
he would say, that the only way to make that education
really useful, and to put down political turbulence and
discontent, was to place the Prot tenant Churchman upon
the same footing as the other denominations in Ireland.
Mr. SHEIL said he begged to assure the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, and he hoped
he might venture to call him his Hon. and Learned
Friend, that he (Mr. Shell) should not consider any
system of education as deserving the name of" nationat"
to which the Irish Protestants could take just objection.
—(Hear, hear.) He entertained for his Protestant fel-
low-countrymen a stronger feeling than mere patriotism.
When he considered the wisdom, the genius, the elo-
quence, the virtue and the talent; when he recollected
bow many great statesmen, profound writers, and be
would add gallant soldiers they numbered, ho could not
withhold the expression of his admiration, and he would
say his gratitude, when he remembered, what be never
could forget, namely, that within the last century there
was not a sig!e one of those great and eminent men that
did not take a part in elevating
,the condition of their
Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen.—(Loud cheers.)
Influenced by those feelings, he would deprecate as much
as any man present the perpetration of a wrong to the
religious feelings of his Protestant fellow countrymen.—
(Hear.) But at the same time he thought that where
a grant of money was asked, where the scruples of Hon.
Gentlemen took an acquisitive turn—(Laughter)—
where the Chancellor of the. Exchequer was called upon
to administer spiritual consolation to Hou. and Learned
Gentlemen—(Laughter)--it was but reasonable that'the
House should inquire whether the objections were well
founded, and whether the fears are not visionary_ by
' which the Parliamentary consciences of Hon. Gentlemen
are Ferturbed.—(Hear, hear.). Now he (Mr. Sheil)
could not agree in the position that the Protestants of
Ireland were opposed to the National Board.—(Hear,
hear.) The great mass of the gentlemen of Ireland were
in favour of it, because they knew and appreciated the
benefit they derived from having the people educated.—
(Hear, hear.) They knew that the national school
planted in every parish was a means of refreshing and
fertilising the minds which otherwise would remain ste-
rile .and unproductive.—(Hear.) With respect to the
Presbyterians, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ad-
mitted they were favourable to the Board. But why was
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman so indignant at
the mention of the word " salary" by the honourable
Member for Ripon?—(Hear, hear.) Was it that the
clergy of the Est tblished Church were not to be influ-
enced by temporal inducement, though the Mosaic system
held out such as the reward of ecclesiastical virtue?—
(",Hear, hear," and laughter.) But in the same breath
the honourable and Learned Gentleman told them that
when thiePresbyteriaus joined the Beard the Regium
Denuin was increased.—(" Hear," and laughter.) The
lion. and Learned Gentleman had quoted the authority
of S Rift; but as for religion the fellow had none at all,
though in all other respects he was an excellent Presby-
terian --(Laughter and cheers.) It was true the majo-
rity of the c!ergy ware opposed to the National Board,
but there was a preponderance of mitres, and they
should not be, overlooked. Seven bishops were too itn-
portant t ) be disregardel—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
The Archbishop of Dublin (Dr. Whately), who, as a
scholar, was worth a host of sacerdotal mediocrities in
point of talent, the profoundest of the mitred theologians—
(Hear, hear)—was not opposed to the. National Board.—
(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been male to Lord Stanley,
awl the tone adopted by him in reference to this matter,
when Secretary for Ireland; and he (Mr. Sheil) should
say that of his progeny, speaking in a figurative sense,
the Noble Lord had cause to be proud. Lord Stanley
was Secretary for Ireland in 1832, and a member of the
Cabinet. That Noble Lord was anxious that religious
instruction should be associated with secular education;
that the tree of knowledge should be grafted on the tree
of life.—(Hear.) Lord Stanley addressed a 1-,tter in
1832 to the' Duke of Leinster. He (Mr. Shiel) had
the letter there, and he apprehended a few sentences, of
it quoted would set the entire matter at rest. lie would,
therefore, read a few for the purpose of disabusing_ the
public mind of the wrong impressions made on it. Hon.
Gentlemen who might coneeive the system of national
education to be-incompatible with religion would do well
to study the letter. Here was an extract—" They (the
Commissioners) will require that the schools be kept
open a certain number of hours for four or five days in
each week, at the discretion of the Commissionersaand
that the remaining one or two days be set apart for giv-
ing separate religious instruction as may be approved of
by the clergy of the respective persuasions; and that the
respective clergy be permitted to give religious instruc-
tion after school hours on the other days of the week."
—(hear, hear.) That was plain language; religious in-
struction to be communicated on one or two distinct days
in each week, and for a certain time after school hours
on each of the other days.—(Hear, hear.) Now, with
that simple statement he destroyed the whole web of
sophistry which the antagonists of the National Beard
system had so ingeniously woven. Here was autho-
rity to teach the children, not alone the great moral
truths of Christianity, but also the clegmas on Which
both churches dissented; and after that would any
Hon. Gentleman assert that the schools under - the
National Board were closed against the interference of
the Protestant clergymen?—(Hear, hears) He (Mr.
Sheil) .was not going to impute factious motives to that
body. He thought that amongst the Protestant clergy
of Ireland the majority were men conspicuous for virtue.
But in saying that he could not refrain from saying what
he conceived to be the real cause of the Protestant
clergy having abandoned the national schools. It was
this—a Protestant and Catholic &orgy were now upon
an equality.—(Cheers.) The Protestant clergy could
not stomach that equality, becauce they considered it
incompatible with the ascendancy which the law had
given them.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had said again and again, and with
such emphasis of reiteration as to lead to the belief that
he attached great importance to the assertion, that the
Roman Catholics of this country had received over-pa-
tronage and encouragement; but he (Mr. Sheil) would
say, restoreao the Roman Catholics the splendid endow-
ments bequeathed by their ancestors to the Church,
and the cases would be parallel—(Hear, hear.)
But was it because Lazarus in his poverty re-
ceived relief, that Dives in the profusion of his
wealth should stretch forth a supplicating hand?—(Loud
cheers.) Providence had given to the favoured Esta-
blishment abundant means for extending the-benefits of
education, and why did they not avail themselves of
them ?—(Elear, hear.) Why not apply for liberty to ape
propriate a portion of tlae Church revenues to the main-
tenance of schools in connexion with the Church?—
(Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) He (Mr. Sheil) recol-
lected seventeen or eighteen years ago it was proposed
that part of the property of Durham Cathedral should be
applied for the purpose of establishing a university in
connexion with the church. He held the charter in his
hands, and here were the words. After reciting that the
dean and chapter- of Durham Were desirous of establish-
ing, in Connexion with the cathedral church, a university
for the advancement of learning. to be under the govern-
ment of the said dean and chapter for the time being, and
also under the jurisdiction-of the lord bishop of the dio-
cese as visitor, it recited that the said do an and chapter
were desirious that those revenues should be appropriated
—appropriated—(Lsughter)—and set apart for the pur-
poses of the university. He thought the lion. Gentleman
would see that the cases were in erratum. pedibes. Why did
not Hua.Merubers opposite veto to the house for an Act of
Learliament, and say, o Give us so much of the property of
the Cnurch as is m cessary for the support of schools in
connexion with the Establishment?"—(Hear, hear.) If
they should do so the House would Imr with great
ir.terest, mad certainly with some serprise.—(Laughter.)
Ile hoped they would forgive him if he ventured to say
that a scriptural image was
eeai l
d
exhausted, presented
syeltdf, oohphi
jesu
ismohnoi n
that
I should
the
when
he'n
an- Irish Churchman, full but wisatiated, cried Gut,
`'G
subjective,
had been tiguy hear.)
con-
tent hiasself, it conclu-idn, with stating the facts that
Lord Stanley founded the National B card--(hear, hear)
—that the Right lion. Member for Tam worth, with
Lord Stanley as his colleague, largely added to the funds
of the National Board—(Bear, hear)—that Parliament

had again and again approved of the National Board__
that every distinguished statesman in the country—
of course excepting Hon. Gentlemen opposite, from
whom unhappily he differed (Laughter) had
concurred in approving of the national system.—
( Char, hear.) And he might add, that these authori-
ties were crowned with a very high and remark-
able approval. Amongst the most remarkable
incidents that occurred when the Queen was in Ireland
was her visit to the National Bosrd—(Hear)—which
took place (by accident of course) before she visited the
College of the holy and undivided Trinity.—(Laughter.)
It was a fine spectacle to see the Queen, with the con-
sort so worthy of her, attended by the representatives
of the Presbyterian Church, by the Catholic Archbishop
of Dublin, and by the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin
—with those venerable ecclesiastics at her side, differing
in creed, but united by the common brotherhood of
Christianity—(Cheers)—in the performance of one of
the noblest, duties which their common Christianity pre-
scribed; it was a fine thing to see the Sovereign of a
great empire surrounded by groups of those little
children who gazed on her with affectionate amazement,
while she returned their looks with a fondness almost
maternal; and, better than all, it was noble and thrilling,
indeed, to see the emotions by which that great lady
was moved when her heart boat with a high and holy
aspiration that she might live to see the benefits of
education carried out in their full and perfect develop-
ment.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. PLUMPTRE said the Right Hon. Gentleman
had represented the Protestant clergy of Ireland as re-
fusiug to take part in the national system of education,
because, having been in the habit of maintaining an at-
cendancy, they did not like to abandni it. He felt it
his duty to declare on their behalf that they were ac-
tuated by far higher and holier motives; and as, on the
ono hand, they were placed fir beyond any praise
which he (Mr. Plumptre) could give them, so, on the
other hand, no blame which the Right Honeurable
Gentleman might be inclined to cast upon them would
affect their character.
Mr. REYNOLDS rose amidst loud cries of 'tDivide''
and much interruption. He said this qsestion was
partly a Church question, partly a money question, and
partly a party question.—(Laughter, and renewed in-
terruption.) An analysis of the political opinions of
those who were opposed to the system would show that
they were the opponents of every movement made in
that House to promote rational liberty. He deeply re-
gretted that the Hon. Member for the University of
Dublin had permitted himself to be made the instrument
of introducting a topic which was likely to increase reli-
gious discord, and thus keep alive that spirit which
had inflicted so much injury on Ireland. It must be ad-
mitted that those by whom this motion was introduced
might take out a patent for ingenuity in the invention of
grievances. As a Roman Catholic Member he com-
plained of that discussion.—(Cries of "Question.") The
agitation of the question was an annual farce. Once a
year, about Easter, there waste gatheringjn the Rotunda
at Dublin. What was that Rotunda? A pocket edition
of Westminster Hall. Who attended in its galleries?
Eight or nine intolerant and bigoted bishops, a certain
number of expectant curates, a larger number of excited
laymen, and a considerable gathering of hysterical old
maids—(Laughter) —the Members for the University of
Dublin attending ex officio. This might be exceedingly
unpalateable to " ears polite," but he had the misfortune
to represent a great city—(Laughter)—Hon. Gentlemen
should have allowed him to finish the sentence—a city in
the centre of which was the great citadel of Orange
ascendancy, Trinity College, and in one corner
the Rotunda, •in which such unseemly scenes
were enacted. He was there to impeach what,
without meaning to offend any one, he must
call an annual humbug. [Mr. Stanford here rose
as if to speak, but immediately resumed his seat.] He
begged most respectfully to state that in using the word
" humbug," he had not thought of the Hon. Member for
Reading (Mr. Stanford).—(Great laughter.) Even if
he thought the Hon. Member deserved that name, being
aware that he was leading a life of single blessedness he
would not like to injure his character with the ladies of
Reading.—(Roare of laughter.) He hoped that expla-
nation would be satisfactory to the Hon. Gentleman. If
a Russian or a Frenchman, quite unacquainted with the
subject had heard the speeches in favour of the motion,
he would have fancied that the Protestants of Ireland
were the most miserably-used people on the face of the
earth. Now, what were the facts? Including Metho-
dists and Quakers, the Protestants of Ireland amounted
to 850,000 of the population; the revenues of the Cnurch
amounted, some said, to 1,000,0001.; others said to
700,000/, aid the Hon. Member for the Univer-
sity of Dublin would admit that they were not leas than
600,000/. The Honourable Gentleman nodded dissent,
but he (Mr. Reynolds) believed the estimate to he a
low one; and that amount was quite irrespective of what
was given to the diocesan and endowed schools, and of
the 100,0001. a year placed at the disposal of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners for the building and repairing of
churches. They complained that the people were net
handed over neck-and-heels to that proselytising asso-
ciation. It was said there were 43,000 Roman Catholic
children within the walls of' the Kildare-street schools.
Why, these children had every one of them been kid-
napped by the influence of soup and oatmeal.—(Laugh-
ter.) Human food was withheld unless spiritual food
was accepted. (Cheers, and " Oh, oh.") The Hon.
Member for Stockport (Mr. Heald) was as ignorant of
Tipperary Protestantism as he was of the feelings of his
own constituents when he said that nine•tenths of them
were oppoSed to the ballot.—(Hear, hear.) If he were
ignorant of the state of political ft cling in Stockport,
how grossly ignorant must he be of the state of Tippe-
rary Protestantism 1 He would assure the House that
Tipperary was not such a wildeiness as the Hon. Mem-
ber supposed; it was a large and civilized community.
He begged to say, in conclusion, that be conscientiously
believed this annual motion was brought on for Li e pur-
pose of guarding the outposts of that overgrown levia-
than, the Prot. slant Church in Ireland.• He ttelievedin
his conscience that, until the temporalities of that Church
were entirely abolished, they never would have peace or
order iu Ireland; and, speaking as an Irishman, he be-
lieved, ni t only that they never would have peace, but
that they never ought to have peace in Ireland.—(Hear,
hear.) Other men might mince the matter; they were
not so catalid as he was; but the great mass tithe popu
lotion of Ireland considered the temporalities of that
Church as an intolerable badge of slavery and oppres-
sion; and, until the whole edifice was, by the operation
of law, levell,d with the dust, he never should consider
himself an emancipated Irishman.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the resolution ... ... 142
Against it
Majority _ —B3