The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

proposing to dismantle our ships, and to leave our payment of head-money 'or the captures of Tirstes,
ports defenceless? He asked Hon. Gentlemen to put this would have l seoefti a reduction of mare than
alongside of the danger of having only 10,000,000/. to 60 ),0001; on the army, 122,000/ ; : iii on tee ardnauce,
pay for our miiitary establishments—if there would be 198,000/, in round numbers. With respect to the army
any danger in such a proceeding—he asked them to ' the expenditure had been successively eituainished aitLin
put alongside of it the danger of leaving their taxation the List three years. He held in his hand an account
in the state in which it was at present placed. He con- of the numbers of taco in the army for the last five
fesssd he was not one of those who thought that this sears, which showed that in 1846 the number was
country was lightly taxed. He believed some gentleman 100,000; in 1847, 108,000; in 1848, 113,000; in 1849,
in the City had lately written a pamphlet for the pur- 103,000; and in tee present year, 99,000, in round num-
pose of showing that this country was lightly taxed; bers.—(Hear, hear.) These facts proved to detsionstra-
and the mode in which that gentleman bad attempted tion that instead of our naval and military establishments
to establish his position was by comparing our present tieing in a state of successive augmentation, they had
expenditure with our expenditure during the last three succeeded in placing them within the last three years in
years of the war, and, next, by comparing our ex- i a course of successive diminution. Since 1848 the de-
penditure with that of some of the countries on the I crease in the effective service bad been no less than
Continent. Now, it might be true that we were not 14,700 men in round numbers. In connexion with this
more heavily taxed in proportion to our wealth than we subject, he would advert to a point which had de-
had formerly been. But what he contended was, that servedly attracted attention of late years to the navy
our wealth did not pay our taxation.—(Hear, hear.) He setimates—namely the objectionable practice which had
believed that if wealth bore its proportionate share of prevailed of having more nien borne than were actually
taxation in this country they would not have rich men voted. This practice had now been entirely discon-
in the City writing pamphlets to show that we were tinued, asd in the present year there was not a single
lightly taxed.—(Hear, hear.) Why, 35,000,000 L or I man borne on the naval force who had not been voted
36,000,0001. a year were raised in this country upon by the House. The number of seamen and marines
articles of consumption. For his part he believed that borne this year were 549 less than were voted; and this
many years could not pass without an alteration, or an was the first year for several years past in which it bad
abolition of many of our taxes—of those taxes which been found practicable to carry this desirable object
pressed on the industry, manufacturing or agricultural, into effect. But while be corrected a misconception into
of the country. They had at present a surplus of which his Hon. Friend seemed to have fallen on these
2,000,0004, and it was said that they ought to apply that points, it could not be denied that of late years there
surplus towards the payment of a portion of the national had been a very considerable increase in the naval and
debt. Now, he was a decided advocate for paying the military expenditm e, and the attention of the House had
national debt—for paying either the principal or the in- frequently been called to its real causes. In the first
terest of that debt; but it appeared to him that a sum of place, it was caused by works of defence of grew inagni-
-2,000,000/. was but a poor beginning for the payment I tude, which bad entailed a very heavy, though tempo-
of a debt of 800,000,000/. He did not thick that they 1 rary, charge on this country—such as dockyards, and
ought to pay off the debt contracted of late years works at Malta and Gibraltar. He believed those works
any more than the debt of a former period ; were undertaken from a strong sense of their absolute
and indeed he looked upon it as a debt far less ob• necessity on the part of those best able to judge. Money
jectionable in its origin. The Right Hon. Baronet the i thus spent was not wasted, but at the same time he re-
Member tor Tamwotith had in the year 1842 commenced j joiced to believe that that large source of expenditure
a new financial system in this country by relaxing the had been greatly checked if not altogether stopped.
bonds upon industry and giving free scope to trade and t Another great cause of this additional expenditure
commerce. The Right Hon. Baronet had imposed an since 1835 had been the necessity of creating esteblish-
incotne•tax; and he (Mr. Cobden) hoped that they would meats for steam-vessels; but this was a charge which,
never part with it, although he was anxious to see its 1 though great at first, would not continue. With respect
pressure differently distributed. But the financial policy to this, also, he rejoiced to believe that it was not
of the Right Hon. Baronet in the year 1842 had formed likely to remain the heavy burden which it had been
a new era in the history of this country—(Hear, hear)— ! hitherto. The third cause of the increase in our mili-
sad the present Government would not surely forfeit the tary expenditure, to which he would ptesently more par-
credit they might obtain by following up the policy of I titularly allude, was the necessity of affording protection
the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government would be so •to our colonial possessions, which had so much increased
pressed by those who were suffering impediments to in- since 1835. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
dustry by indirect taxation, that they would be compel- Tamworth on the budget of 1845 went fully into that
led to part with their surplus of only 2,000,000/. to satisfy subject, and detailed to the House the reasons which, in
those who were clamorous for a remission of taxes, nut t his opinion, justified that increase of military expendi-
because they took so much money from their pockets, but ture The gross increase in the civil expenditure from
because they were found to interfere with the progress of 1835 to 1849 still remained to be accounted for. He
business, whether in paper-making, in printing, or had already stated that only the smaller half of the
anything else. He therefore submitted that any Go- 6,000,000/. was justly attributable to the military expen-
vernment which might be in power must contemplate a diture, and he now proceeded to call the attention of the
much larger surplus than 2,ooo,ooo4—(Hear, hear.) House to the causes which had swelled the civil expen-
How was it possible, save by the plan which he had diture during that period. The charges on the Consoli-
proposed, to reduce the taxation, unless altering the sys- dated Fund had been increased by 712,0001., and the mis-
tern altogether, or increasing the income-tax to 10 per cellaneous estimates for civil services by 1,766,0001. in
cent.? That the Government would not do he knew; round numbers making together a total of 2,478,0001.—a
but they could do what he proposed, if the House would j larger sum than the real increase in the naval and [Dili-
only help him to press it on them. They could reduce I wry expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) This increasoed ex-
the taxation to the standard of 1835. That would give penditure for civil purposes might he classed under
a surplus which would make the present surplus a grow- three general heads : those charges which, in a
ing surplus, relieve industry to the amount of great measure, had at various times and for
10,000,0004, and afford the means of accomplishing various purposes been forced ,on the Govern.
something important. Divide it in two. With half they meet by that House—(Hear)—acted upon, doubtless,
might convert some part of the debt into terminable by the demands and opinions of the various con-
annuities, and with the other relieve the industry of stituencies; next, the charges rendered necessary by un-
the people by taking the taxes off paper, malt, hops, foreseen calamities; and, thirdly, charges now defrayed
and other articles. Without one of those two courses by a vote, which were formerly provided for from other
how could they do anything more than child's play? sources. Under the first head he would class harbours
He should, therefore, put it before the House whe- of refuge, which had been forced on the Government,
then there was not less danger in trusting to their forming a new charge of 141,0001.; payments in aid of
own good intentions and to Divine Providence, county rates, 148,0001.; expenses connected with the
than in 10,000,0001. expended annually in arms- poor-law, 198,000/.; Parliamentary and other printing,
wants? Was it not better to trust to these elements which ha quite agreed with his Hon. Friend in thinking
of security, and have it in their power to relieve the most monstrously extravagant, but to which he feared it
country from taxation, and give contentment to the would be very difficult for the Government to offer any
eople in the way which he had proposed? It was to efficient check unless it received more support from the
enable them to take that course that he wished the ilouse.--(flear, hear.) Under this head he found an

House to pass this resolution, which was no vote of
want of confidence, but rather a vote of confidence.
There was a power in this country which resisted im-
provement—a power which did not appear in that
[louse, but worked by covert means, and required the
counteraction of that House. He asked them, then, if

~xpensv of 82,0001. The prison and convict service showed
an excess of expenditure amounting to 400,0001.; and
.41neation, including the Irish colleges, about 225,0001,;
the office of Registrar-General and the Copyhold Com-
missioners, 71,0001.; the British Museum building and
establi,hment, 40,000/. He now took the second class,

they regarded the interests of those who sent them there,
not to regard this as a party question, and not to go out
on the opposite lobby because it was ho who had broutht
it forward; but to vote bona fide on its merits in favour
of the motion. The Hon. Member concluded, amidst

that caused by unforeseen calamities, and first among
these he wuuld take the burning of the old Hunses of
Parliament, which he confessed had led to another un-
foreseen calamity—namely, the great expunse rf he new
House 4. Under this head there was an expenditure of

loud cheers, by moving—" On going into Committee of
Supply, that the net expenditure of the Government for
the year 1835 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 260,
1847), amounted to 44,422,000/. ; that the net ex-
penditure for the year ended the sth day of January,
1850 (Parliamentary Paper, No. 1, 1850), amouotesi
to 50,853,0001.; the increase of upwards of 6,000,0004
having been caused principally by successive augmenta-
tions of our warlike establishments and outlaysfordelen-
sive armaments. That no foreign danger. ornecessary cost
of the civil Government, or indispensable disbursements
for the services in our dependencies abroad, warrant
the continuance of this increase of expenditure. That
the taxes required to meet the present expenditure im-
pede the operations of agriculture and manufactures,
and diminish the funds fur the employment of labour in
all branches of productive industry, thereby tending to
produce pauperism and crime, and aiding to the local
and general burdens of the people. That, to diminish
these evils, it is expedient that this House take steps to
reiuce the annual expenditure, with all practicable speed,
to an amount not exceeding the sum which, within the
lust fifteen years, has been proved to be sufficient for the
maintenance of the security, honour, and dignity of the
nation."

45,0001. The distress in Ireland entailed sn expendi,
Lure of 163,0001. The third class embraced those ex-
penses which were now provided f)r by a vote
of the House, and formerly were furnished from
other sources. There were the fees of the
House of Commons and the Government officer, for in.
stance, which were brought in aid of the estimate in
1835, but were now paid into the Consolidated Fund,
waking a difference of 100,0001. In the Postage there
wai a difference consequent upon the abolition of franking
.f 44,0001.; in the constabulary of Ireland an increase of
570,0001.; the expense of the police in London and
Dublin, an increase of 40,0001.; consular establishments
in China and other parts of the world, 53,0001. Ho had
thus shown that those statements which his Honour-
able Friend invited the House to concur with him in
waking, that the increase of the expenditure since 1835
was mainly owing to the increase in our military estat-
-liihments, were incorrect. He now proceeded to what up-
,,eared to him a still more important branch of the motion
—namely, the pledge which he called on the House to
wake, chat they would speedily revert to the scalc of
expenditure of 1835, having especial rclerenee to the
naval and military expenditure. The 11. m. Membor had
laboured much to prove that, in reality, they would do

Mr. LABOUCITERE heartily concurred with the
Hoe. Member for the West Riding in calling upon the
House to view this question in no party spirit. but to
deal with it solely with refsrence to its merits. Had the
Honourable Member confined himself on this occasion,
before the estimates were considered, in laying before
the House his own views upon the great variety o,
topics on which he had touched, he should have
been far from asserting that he had not taken

no more by adopting his resolution than to-soy—" We
hive every desire to revert to that scale; we do not
mean to do it in two or three years; all we moan to
,ay is, if circumstances are altogether unaltered, and
,:o new occurrence takes place, we have every desire
t , revert to that scale." He held such a proceeding
to be altogether unparliainentary and unprece-
dented. He should be as glad as his Honourable
t-iend to see the House able to reduce the burdens of

a useful course, for the House could not de otherwise
than profit by the intelligence and rest arch which th,
Hon. Member was able to bring to bear upon any sub-
ject to which he addressed himself. But the Hou.
Member had gone far beyond that. He had asked the
House to. twice to a specific resolution, which it would
be his duty earnestly to urge the impropriety of acced-
ing to. He trusted he should be able to show the House
that unless they intended to affirm a proposition in direct
contradiction to facts which could be proved, and make a
pledge of a most impolitic description, which it might
be impossible to redeem with safety, and impossible to
retreat from with consistency and honour, it was their
duty to their country, and their duty to those principles
of economy which he admitted ought to be foremost in
their minds, to reject the proposal of the Hon. Member.
The motion was a repetition of that which the Hon.
Member made last year. He again pledged the
House to revert to the expenditure of 1835, and
again ascribed the increase which had taken
place in the expenditure of this year, as com-
pared with 1835, to successive augmentations in our
warlike establishments. He would endeavour to
show, in the first place, that the statement was incorrect
and that the pledge would be highly impolitic. There
was one difference between his motion this year and that
of last year, to which the Hon. Member did not make
even a passing allusion. It was the only difference, but
a most important one. This year he stated the differ-
ence in the expenditure of the two periods betweet,
which he instituted the comparison to be six millions;
last year he stated it to be ten millions—(Hear, hear)—
and yet, notwithstanding this, his Hon. Friend still went
on using the words " successive augmentations," and
asked the House to apply the same terms, he himself
confessing to a difference of not less than four millions
between this year and last.—(Hear.) He could only
say he heartily hoped if his Hon. Friend renewed hie
motion year after year, he would, year after year, have
to alter that particular part of his motion. On this oc-
casion he could not help thinking that the statement of
his Hon. Friend refuted the terms of his motion. It was
incorrect to say that the difference of upwards of six
millions between this year and 1835 was caused prin-
cipally by successive augmentations for warlike
establishments and outlays on expensive arma-
ments. He could show the House that when
they came to sift these accounts and examine the real
increase, the increase would be found not to exceed
2,365,0001. in round numbers. He held in his hand a ,
comparative statement of the expenditure in 1835 and
1849. He found the expenses of the debt 28,500,000/.
in 1835, and in 1849 28,323,0001., in round numbers,l
showing a decrease on this head. The charges on the ,
Consolidated Fund showed an increase of 1,712,0001.;
army, 142,000/.;,navy, 2,800,0001.; ordnance, 1,180,0001.; i
miscellaneous services, 1,766,0001.; showing a total in-
crease of about 6,400,0001.; of this a considerable propor-
tion appeared under the head of army, navy, and ordnance
—namely, 4,166,0001. But in order to form a just com-
parison between the expenditure of the two years, allow-
ances must be made in consequence of the different mode
of making up the accounts, the excess in the rates not
being now, as formerly, applicable to the different ser-
vices. This made a difference of 642,0001. Then, again,
the sum formerly received in aid from the sale of old
stores was now paid into the Exchequer. This, in
1849, amounted to 421,000/. That, again, the Post-
office packet service, part of the expenses of which
was formerly defrayed by the Post-office department,
formed part of the naval estimates of 1849, amount-
ing in round numbers to 737,0001. If the House
Would add these figures together, they would find
the real increase in our warlike establishments in 1849
as compared with 1835, only 2,365,000/. He next pro-
ceeded to deal with the allegation put forth by the lion
Member, that the increase in our expenditure had been
successive.—(Hear, hear.) He should be able to :thew
that this statement was not consistent with fact. In
point of f,et, since 1848, instead of there being a sue-
cpssi ve augmentation, there had been a successive de-
crease in our expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) Ia the early
part of the period, since the year 1835, there war, no
doubt, ell increase, but since 1648 there lisd been a
sucensssive dimieutton. These were the reductions made
in the expenditure of the army, navy, and ord
"nee, as stated last year by his Right Honourable
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose ad-
wince ho deeply deplored, and whose place he felt
se inadequate to supply on au occasion like this.
'His
Right Honourable Friend then stated that last year the
reduction in the navy, as compared with the preceding
sear, 1848, was 730,000/ ; army, 378,0001; ordnance,
337,0001. in round numbers, showing altogether a dimi-
nution of 1,447,0001. It was to be observed also that the
estimates on the table showed a reductionin these
three departments, over and above those of last year,
of, on the navy, 424,0001.—in which there would have
been a still further reduction of MAW. but fur the

the country and the military establiehments to the same
•cale as that of 1835; but he should not dt al frankly
with the Hou,o or the country it he expre"ssed any san-
guine hope as to the practicability of such a reductiois.
ae was, therefore, unwilling to concur in giving a p:edge
which he might be unable t I redeem. Bat it was by no
means correct to say that the proposition 0f the Hon.
Aember was to reduce the naval and military expendi-
ture to the level of 1835. His proposal was in truth to
reduce it much below that mark, unless he proposed to
compel Ireland to bear the whole burden of her consta-
bulary again, and !evoked the grants for education and
sther purposes which kad been made since that time. In
point of fact, the House would find that his proposal was
,o reduce the naval and military expenditure by no less
than 1,300,0001. below the scale of 1835. His Hon.
Friend bad told him of his conversations with a Hunga-
rian general, and how he laughed :at our skeleton regi-
ments with so many officers, and compared ours with
the Austrian system. Now he suspected the Hungarian
general laughed not because there were so many officers,
but because there were so few soldiers.—(blear, hear.)
the truth was, ours west% sy,tern based on real economy,
and was so formed as to maintain the army on the!
smallest possible scale compatible with the means of ex-
tending it as emergencies might arise.—(Hear, hear.)
It was all very well fir the Hungarian general to talk
in this way, but what was the Austrian as compared
with the English army? It amounted to considerably
more than 400,000 men.— (Hear.) His Hon. Friend
tied told them that the tries! policy of this country was
not to have enormous !level and military establishments,
hut to preserve a well filled exeh: Tier, and a contented
and prosperous people. In that he agreed with him, but
some observations made by his lion. Friend in the
course of his speech convinced him that his lion. Friend
would agree with him iu saving that this was all a ques-
tion of degree, because his lion. Friend was no more for
turning off our soldiers and laying up our ships than he
was. The question was, were our naval and military es-
tablishments excessive? He contended they were not.
Depend upon it the true economy was to maintain
them in an effective state, and so as to be capable of ex-
pansion at any time. His Hon. Friend wished the House
to make a declaration to this country and the coloni.'s
that henceforth a change of system must be adopted, and
that we should withdraw our military protection from
the dependencies of the British empire. Now he did not
deny that it was the duty of the Government to watch nar-
rowly this branch of the national expenditure, and em-
brace every fit and suitable opportunity of keeping it
within due limits, and reducing it, if possible, within
still smaller bounds, nor had the Government neglested
this duty. As a general principle he thought that in all
which related to matters of internal police the colonies
might be fairly expected to bear the expense. With. re-
gard to Imperial interests, it was the practice i n former
tittles, before the French revolutionary war, for the co-
lonies of this country to bear, not the whole, but a share
of the burdens of the mother country in providing the
means of Imperial defence. He was not prepared to say
that prudently, cautiously, and considerately, that prin-
ciple might not be again carried in our dealings with our
colonies to a greater degree than at present. Nothing,
however, was more to be deprecated than a hasty and in-
considerate affirmation of principles which, when
.carried
out to the British colonies, would only serve to stimulate
the efforts and assist the machinations of the disaffected.
He was not surprised that his Honourable Friend
should have touched on the subject of the colonies, for
no doubt on questions of military establishments it was
impossible not to take them in account. He said " mi-
litary establishments," because he thought the colonies
of this country, scattered over the whole world,
were the means of employing a smaller number of
hips than she would be compelled to do without them.
There was no doubt, however, that this military exp
tu-
diture—the cost of paying troop, barracks, ordnauce,
and transport— which fortnedwseorelfa.irigrelynapurroipbourttaibolne
the dead weight of the army, ofto
the colonial service. He admitted it was desirable and
pratticab!e gradually to reduce this branch of expendi-
ture, but het arnestly deprecat al precipitate measures.
The circumstances of our colonies were widely different.
Putting out of the question Malta and Gitraltar, and
confining his observations to those which might be
strictly called colonies—he would begin with Australia.
That colony was not exposed to any foreign attack, or
danger from the aboriginal inhabitants; and, except in
one particular pert, was perfectly able to protect itself
against evils consequent upon being brought in contact
with a convict population. The circumstances of Canada
were altogether different, with a large extent of to eign
frontier; and so were those of New Zealand, with a large
aboriginal population, causing constant alarm and
danger to the European settlers. It would be impossible
meaner; treat these iu the same miner; but oppor,unttres
would bo taken as they arose, to invite the colonists to
take those charges upon themselves. But reductions