The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-08 00:00:00

That is the real meaning of " the previous question"—
(Hear, hear ;)—but I ask this house—l ask right hon.
gentlemen op the' reasury bench—is the present ate un-
propitious time for bridging this question under the con-
sideration of Parliament ? Is not Ireland quiet ? Is
there not peace throughout the whole of that country ?
Are not all the various classes of Ireland in a
prosperous condition.? I venture to say that
if at any time you could proponnd with safety a
change in the Government of Ireland it is at the present
moment, and I am therefore astonished at the course
which my hon. and learned friend intends to
adopt. I could understand a bold persistent denial of
the value of the change hich I propose. I. should not
have much regard for the intellect of the man who ven-
tured enchdenial—(a laugh)—but still I should understand
it. I cannot, however, understand an hon. gentleman
who says, " I admit the truth of your proposition, but
I think you bring it forward at an unpropitione period."
Unpropitious ! Why, is the present time as unpropi-
tious as 1850 ? I have in my hand a curious document
relative to the proposal made in 1850 by the noble mem-
ber for the city of London—whom I am afraid is not
present—then Prima Minister—for abolishing the office
of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and establishing a fourth
Secretaryship of State. I have here the names of the
members of the present Government who voted in 1850
for the bill of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell), and I
will read them for the satisfaction and edification of the
House, (" Hear, bear," and a laugh.) I will take
them in alphabetical order. They are,—Mr. M. T.
Baines, the Hon. E. P. Bouveris, Lord E. Bruce, the
Hon. W. F. Cowper, Viscount Duncan, Sir G. Grey,
Mr. W. G. Hayter—(laughter)—Mr. H. A. Herbert,
Mr. E. Horseman, Mr. R. Keating, Mr. H.
Labouchere, Mr. G. C. Lewis, Mr. W. Monsell,
Lord Mulgrave, Mr. R. Osborne, Lord A. Paget, the
HOn. E. H. Stanley (now Lord Stanley of Alderley),
the Hon. C. Villiers, Mr. J. Wilson, the Right Hon.
Sir' C. Wood. (" Hear," and a laugh.) There are now
living six gentlemen who have been secretaries to the
Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland. Four of those gentlemen
are Irishmen, and all six voted for the abolition of the
office of Lord-Lieutenant. They were the Right Hon.
H. Lewbouchere, Sir J. Young, Mr. Horsinan, Mr. H. A.
Herbert, Lord Naas, and Sir W. S )merville. Lord J.
Russell being at that time Prime Minister, must have
brought in the bill to which I refer with the approba-
tion of his Cabinet, and among the members of the Ca-
binet who must he regarded as ,persons acquiescing in,
agreeing to, and approving of the measure of the noble
lord, I find the right hon. Sir F. Baring, Lord J. Russell
himself, Lord Clarendon, and lastly the name of Lord
Palmerston. (Hear, and laughter.) It so happens that
Lord Palmerston did not vote upon the question, but
etill I have a right to assume that he approved the pro-
ceedings of his chief. I cannot suppose he would with-
hold his vote for the purpose of saying subsequently that
he did not approve, the measure ; neither can I suppose
it possible that any of the gentlemen who now grace the
Treasury bench will so far fgrget themselves and their
former votes as to oppose my proposition. (Hear, and a
latigle.) I can't imagine that they will so far forget what
is due to their pesition as members of the Government,
as members of this house, as representatives of the
people, as honest men—(hear)—as to forego and forswear
their words, and to vote against me on this occasion,,
even upon the pretence of the " previous question.'
(Hear.) Mine is a plain and simple proposition. ft ie to
do away with the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland ; it is an
appeal to the house to make Ireland really a part of the
great kingdom to which she belongs, and to abolish the
last badge of conquest ; for recollect that Ireland was not
united to England in the same manner as Scotland.
(Hear, hear.) Scotland had never been conquered ; she
stood upright before us, and met us on equal terms ; she
was united as a kingdom over which we never pretended
to exercise real control. That was not the case wile
Ireland. Unhappily for her—unhappily for ourselves—
we conquered Ireland ; we introduced into that country
a system cf rule that was a disgrace to England ; few-
happily for Ireland, and happily for this country, we
have outgrown the mischief and the misery of conquest.
(Hear.) We are now a united people ; and I ask this
house to do away with the last badge of slavery which
we imposed upon Ireland, to abolish the Lord-Lieuten-
ancy of that country, and to make her what she ought to
Le—a fractional pare of the great king&l m to which she
belongs. I therefore move without hesitation, "That in
the opinion of this house the office of Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland ought to be abolished." (Ceeere.)
.Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
_Mr. M'CULLAGH said his objections to the motion
were twofold. First, that it was not a proper mode of
dealing with this important questi .n ; and 2dlY, that the
session was so far advanced that it would be impossible,
if the house affirmed the proposition, to introduce a bill
feunded thereon, and pass it into a law this session. The
motion of the hon. and learned memb.r for Sheffield,
whilst it proposed to abolish the office of Lord Lieute-
nant in Ireland, did not propose a substitute, neither had
he shadowed forth a plan. Since the union, 120 statutes
had been passed with reference to Ireland, 50 of which
appled ex'lusively to that country on every subject of
legislation. Even now, when so mach was said about
the identifi'ation of interests, there was great difficulty in
applying English legieletion to Ireland, and a greater
dislike to extend the principles of Irish legislation to
England, as was shown last session, when it was pro-
posed to establi.h a constabulary throughout England.
Then, again, there was in Ireland a stipendiary magis-
tracy, which it was not proposed to extend to England.
Oa a review of all the circumstances, and having again
reiterated his objections to the motion, he called on the
house to support him in moving the previous question.
Mr. GROGAN objected to the amendment as a post-
eonement of the question, considering the house should
at once come to a decision upon it. He opposed the mo-
tion of the hon. and learned member for Sheffield, which
was simply an abstract proposition to abolish the office
without any arguments in its favour.
Mr. WHITES'IDE said that if it would be the means
of procuring complete identification of legislation for the
t vo countries, he would readily vote for the motion of the
lion, and learned member for Sheffield; but believing it
would not produced the desired effect, he would vote
against it. He admitted the government of Ireland was
badly managed, but Were the office of Lord-Lieutenant
was abolished, there were many things connected with
it that required serious consideration. He certainly was
not now so enthusiastic in its retention as he was in his
younger days, woad when a plan was propose I for ice
abolition ho would give it his most earnest attention.
The tranquillity of Ireland must not be taken as an in-
dication of the people being contented with the system
of government adopted there, and ha assured the house
that if Ireland was as far distant as Canada, the ex cu-
tive government might be blown down as easdy as a
Louse of cards. (Hear,) He considered that the policy
adopted in the government of Ireland was erroneous.
They could not agitate—it was against their principle.
(Laughter.) But they hoped to gain such a numerical
strength en that house that they could compel the
.ministry, with or without a Lord-Lieutenant, to govern
.Ireland properly. No material authority was exercised
by the Irish executive. Any material improvement was
lemilened by the circumlocution office.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that nothing had been
-advanced by any hon. gentleman on the other side, with
. one exception, in favour of the maintenance of the Lord
Lieutenancy. The offiie was a very ancient one, and
one that could net hastily begot rid of. Bat if this vote
should be passe it would be for the Government to con-
. eider what steps should he taken to prepare for its aboli-
tion. He remembered when the noble lord the member
'for the City of London had advocated the abolition of
the Lord-Lieun nancy. Elie regretted that the noble lord
was not in his place, but be knew that while the noble
lord would not press the matter to the present inconve-
nience of the Government, his opinion on the question
ha I undergone no change. A great deal had -been said
against con trali,,ation, but thew!) were times when cell-
. traiisation _would be an advantage. The pra3ent eye•
tem wan roundabout and um a eetectory. (Hear, hear.)
Ireland was governed by a double executive, and the
t weakened each other. Ho. complained of the in-
decency of the constantly recurring condemnation by one
viceroy of the conduct of his predecessor. It had
been said that the lord-lieutenancy was necessary to
the maintenance of the court in Ireland, but he
asked what difference there was in this respect between
the relation between England and Ireland, and that
between England and Scotland ? and why, if the re-
moval of the court from the former country bad not
been injurious, any evil-should he apprehended from it
ire Ireland 57 years after the Union ? So far from ab-
sentees being increased by the abolition of the office, he
thought it would be very materially diminished. The
- removal of the Lord-Lieutenancy would not de-nation-
alise Ireland, but would unP rovincialiee her; she would
be as much a notion and more imperial. He agreed
with the honourable member for Sheffield that it would
. be removing a badge of conquest, and he should not re-
cede from his vote of 1850, but should support the mo-
tion of Mr. R:mbuck.
Mr. VANCE said that if he di I not think the removal
of the Viceroy wool I as injuriously affect the whole
country as it would the city of Dublin, he should not
oppose it for the sake of ono- city,
as he held it
would be injurious to the interests of the country, he
would oppose the motion to the last.
• Mr.. BAG WELL should have expected from the great
reformer of the day something better than the
pulling
down of an existing institution. A very clumsy fellow
might pull down, but it required an architect to build
up. It was injudicious to propose a reform not called
for by the people. Some of the hon. gentlemen who
had spoken in favour of the motion were Irishmen, but
. strangely, had been unable to obtain seats for their
native places. They sat as English members and spoke
. as Englishmen. Unless the Irish people made a move
in this direction it was not competent for Englishmen to
legislate on the question. The Parliament which car-
ried the act of Union could not fairly be called an Irish
Parliament. There never was a country so swindled
out of its rights as Ireland at the time of the Union,
Which, indeed,. was necessary, but which was carried by
unfair means, and the people of Ireland were not really
consulted on the question.
He hoped the house would
consider this question in connection a ith the feel-
ings—the prejudices, if they would—of the Irish pr o-
pie. elzt ewould be quite time to legislate upon
a the subject, wnen the
opinion, and that any people of Ireland expressed an
measure that might be introduced
should proceed from
private individual. ruleeaGr.o)vernment instead of from a
Mr. MAGUIRE repudiated the morbid
over the abolition
sentimen-
talities of gentlemen who would t W
of the Lord-Lieutenancy,
revould not mourn
over the lost liberties of their coupnia,yl::of those who
were indifferent when the great
Ireland was converted into a Bank, and Parliament-house of
in resisting the national appeal on behalf of liberty,
who were now so anxious about the retention of ay'eh
royalty and a mock court. He was unwilling tier a
subject of this minor importance should be swellen into
one of primary magnitude, and he was bound to say_
whatever unpopularity he might gain by it in Dublin—
that the calm and able exposition of the right hon.

member for Canterbury had made a considerable impres-
sion upon his mind. The two hon. members who re-
presented the millinery interest of Dublin (a laugh) had,
no doubt conscientiously discharged their duty faith-
fully to the " shamocracy" of that city ; but he pro-
tested against the exaggerations of which he had been
guilty. One of them had spoken of the Lerd-Lieute-
nauts as the promoters of the arts, science, and commerce
of Ireland. (Hear, hear from Mr. Vance.) Why, in
what parts of Ireland did commerce flourish ? Was it
Dublin, or was it in Belfast, or in Cork? What had
the Lord-Lieutenant ever done to promote commerce ?
Thank Gad 1 there was no Lord-Lieutenant in Belfast,
and he was sure he was delighted that there was none in
Cork. They got on well there ; their merchandise and
trade prospered, and they. were not a whit less intelli-
gent or independent because they never saw the Lord-
Lieutenant. They wanted neither a Carlisle nor an
Eglinton to make them industrious, intelligent, enter-
prising, and an hon. gentleman could only be excused on
the ground of excess of zeal who told them, who knew
that the office wasa sham, that the Lord-Lieutenant had
promoted thecommerce of Ireland. The other hon. mem-
ber for Dublin stated that the tranquillity and prospe-
rity of Ireland were attributable to the Lord-Lieutenant.
Was not that immense exaggeration ? He didn't hesitate
to say that it was downright blasphemy. (A laugh.) He.
repeated it most deliberately, the prosperity of Ireland was
owing to the Great Being who presided over the destinies of
mankind. He had given them abundance. He had
blessed their harvests. It was that Great Being who had
removed the load of misery from the hearths and homes of
the people of Ireland, and the Viceroy had in no way con-
tributed to bring about that happy Change which he (Mr.
Maguire) as a Christian man recognised, and attributed to
the mercy of God alone. (Hear.) He contended, then, that
the attempt to trace these blessings to a mock sceptre and
a sham Court was downright palpable blasphemy. He had
no doubt that the Government were much indebted to the
present Viceroy, because he fully admitted that he had
made himself most popular in Ireland. The noble lord
had mastered the national dances—(a laugh) —and he did
verily believe that he was equal to anything in that way,
from the dash and splendour of Sir Roger de Coverley to
the intricate mysteries of the double shuffle. He was sure
the noble lord had mastered these dances out of respect to
the people, and in order to place himself upon a good foot-
ing with them, (Laughter.) He had done as much also to
eulogise Irish bulls, and to indicate the points and perfec-
tions of Irish pigs, as any viceroy who had ever gone there.
(Renewed laughter.) Moreover, he had spoken in the most
amiable way of the national trades, and he had done great
service to the Government in a political way, for not even
Coppock was a better electioneerer than Lord Carlisle. The
noble lord, so far as it was possible for a lord-lieutenant to
be so, was omnipresent during the elections, in county and
in borough. Nothing was too great f r his genius, nothing
too small for his power of detail. There was not a borough
in the country but he had a finger in the pie. (A laugh.)
The noble lord, then, was undoubtedly a good electioneerer;
but what benefit he had ever conferred upon the people of
Ireland had yet to be discovered. He (Mr. Maguire) had
occaaionallygone to the castle, not to bow and scrape before
sham Majesty, but upon public business, when the Lord-
Lieutenant had been obliged to admit practically the
mockery of which he was the embodiment ; for it was evi-
dent to every one upon those' occasions that the Viceroy
was a kind of post-office, an electric wire, through which
a message might be sent, a vehicle for conveyance, but no-
thing more. " I am not of the Cabinet, I must consult
the Cabinet.," was the only answer he could give. In the
same way the Secretary for Ireland, if any representations
were ma le to him, was obliged to confess that he, too, was
a mockery, or scarcely anything better. He could not
venture to exprees an opinion of his own : all ha could do
was to promise to consult his superiors. (Hear, hear) He
had come to the conclusion that there must be some re-
sponsibile officer pla,ced on a level with the other members
of the Cabinet, to whom Irishmen could go to represent
the wants of the country, and by whom something like
authority would be exercised. So long as some arrange-
ment of that sort were not made Ireland would 'continue
to be in that degraded and anomalous position to which
the hon. member for Dublin apprehended she would fall if
the Lord-Lieutenant were withdrawn. As to the removal
of the courts of law, he should resist such a proposal by all
means in his power, and he believed it had been shown
pretty clearly that the diversity of the laws made it
utterly impossible that the courts of England and Irelan 1
could be amalgamated. Then it was said that Dublin
would be injured by the withdrawal of the Lord-Lieuten-
ant. He had once an idea of that sort before he had given
much attention to the subject, but he did not think so
now. No doubt it would be a blow to that bas'ard aris-
tocracy, that wretched assumption of gentility, utterly at
variance with honourable industry and independence,
which was generated in Dublin by this miserable abortion
of a Court. (Hear, hear.) There was more real independ-
ence in any little town in Ireland than in Dublin. The in-
fluence of the Castle was most injurious to Ireland, but in
nothing was it ' felt more seriously than in the
dem oralieation of Dublin society. There was wretched
ostentation and glitter without, and hard miserly pinching
within. The gentleman of 7001. or 800/. a year was not
contented unless he could get his daughters presented
at the Castle. He came up to Dahill), hired a house, and
in order to keep pace with the ambitions barrister and the
aspiring attorney he had to screw his miserable tenants, and
in the end became himself a patriotic pauper —all to bask
in the smiles of a Carlisle or an Eglinton. (Laughter.) He
did not, however, intend to vote for the motion of the hon.
and learned member for Sheffield. (Loud laughter.) He
was aware that this declaration was not a very logical de-
duction fr om his speech, and the laughter of hon. gentlemen
did not take him by surprise. But he should not support
the motion for the reasons given by the hon. gentleman
who had moved the previous question, and for the reasons ,
which would actuate the majority of those who were about 1
to vote against the motion. He did not believe that there
were 10 gentlemen who were in favour of the retention of
the Lor 1-identenant. (Cries of " Oh !") Were there 20,
then? Thera were certainly not more who, if it were put
to a plain question of aye or no, should the Lord-Lieute-
nant ba retained or not, would vote aye. But the hon.
member for Sheffield was not in a position to offer an equi-
valent. The Government alone were in that position, and
until some definite substantial plan were laid before Par-
liament, he should not vote for any such motion as this.
The hon. member for Dublin, who last spoke (Mr. Vance)
had done more than any one else to show the true nature
of the Dublin feeling in favour of the retention of the
office. He made it a great national question ; but what
did he ask ! Compensation for Dublin ; not for bereaved
Cork, or for heartstricken Belfast, but only for widowed
Dublin about to lose her Carlisle. (Loud laughter.) To
speak in official langnage, he was ready to give his " best
and fairest consideration" to any motion which came legiti-
mately before the house, backed wjth the weight of the
authority of its proposers, and not proceeding from a private
member, who could do nothing to carry out his proposition,
When a definite plan was thus laid before the house he
should bo prepared to support it, and to run all the risk
of the terrible consequences—the destruction of Irish
nationality and the extinction of the Irish race, which the
hon. member for Dublin apprehended would flow from the
withdrawal of this miserable sham of a Court. It had been
said on a former occasion that this measure would drive
all the gentry from Dublin; but the answer given by the
noble lord the member for London to that was that it
would be far better for them to be on their own estates
minding their own business, and he was old-fashioned
enough to agree in that opinion. The hon. member for
Dublin complained that not even a baron would be left in
Dublin. The solitary Irish duke was gone, all the mar-
quises were gone, nobody was left but a baron and a bishop,
and these, too, would depart, with the Lord-Lieutenant.
But if the withdrawal of the splendid Court of a Viceroy
would drive all these great people away from Dublin, how
was it that it didn't keep them in Dublin now that it
was there? (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding his objections
to the retention of the Viceroyalty, lie should, for the rea-
sons he had stated, vote on the present occasion for the
previous question.
Mr. HORSMAN said that the hon. and learned gentle-
man the member for Enniskillen had stated that the Lord-
Lieutenantlhal made appointments in Ireland to which the
Secretary of State for the Home Department would never
be a party. With that flash of eloquence the hon. and
learned gentleman had vanished, • and had not since ap-
peared in the house. It had been constantly urged that
the appointments of the present Lord-Lieutenant had been
given almost exclusively to Roman Catholics; but the
fact was, that in point of numbers, emolument, and in-
fluence the great majority of the appointments of the pre-
sent ILkl-Lieutenant had been given to Protestants. When
the present Lord-Lieutenant went to Ireland he made the
arrangement that, in regard to appointments, personal
qualities and services should bo the first cl dm, and poli-
tical influence the second ; and during the two years he
held office that rule was not, as far as he was aware, de-
parted from in a single instance. (Hear, hear.) In
tho case of assistant barristers, the appointments were
of that kind that even those who .were disappointed
spontaneously declared their conviction of the high
moral effect which must be produced throughout
the country by such excellent nominations. (Hear, hear.)
It must be recollected that a few years since Ireland was a
mystery and embarrassment to all. Since that she has ex-
perienced a famine and a rebellion, but she had since had
good seasons. Ireland was, however, an agricultural coun-
try, and should there be bad seasons, he was afraid we
might find that her temporary prosperity had concealed
weaknesses which there had not been time to eradicate,
and thus Ireland might again become to us a source of
great anxiety, embarassment and expense. (Hear, hear.)
He therefore thought they should approach any hasty
changes in the government of Ireland with great caution.
The question had been put in many ways by various
speakers, but he should wish to look at it in an Irish point
of view, and to inquire whether the existing executive
tended to conduce to the good government and well-being
of the Irish people. He objected altogether to the pro-
posal in reference to the law courts, for helbelieved that the
expenses of bringing suitors, solicitors, and others to Lon-
don would be ruinous, and that the removal of the courts
would be tantamount their abolition. It would be im-
possible for the Government to adopt the resolution of the
hon. and learned gentleman, because if the resolution were
carried, the lord lieutenancy would be condemned, and it
would be the duty of the Government to provide an equi-
valent. With the carrying of the resolution, the responsi-
bility of the hon. and learned gentleman and the house
would cease, bat with the adoption of the resolution, the
responsibility of the Government would commence. So
long, therefore, as the Government were unprepared to pro-
vide an equivalent, it would be imperative upon them to
oppose the resolution which had been submitted. He
thought this was a question which might well be left for
future consideration and for a future declaration on the
part of the Government as to the course they would think
it desil 4ble to pursue.
Mr. P. O'BP.IEN looked up on the question as one of
contract, for at the time eof the union the Irish
people were assured that theL Lords
dolsrLieutenancy,oiri
ethsteabolinislaceeds,haonndlditize,vsesthu
esdntthheolison. member
fsolirma nahriscßosluLirgAthiKtninElgreland. opinion of the people now that
retained. It was idle to talk of a
remarksad noblemeni w(Mhor..liMadagulatierley) filled
wasth the
muchLor(l
indebted Lieutenancy
toHe
d c thoughtCarlisle Ire-
land
sfn
their great exertions in its behalf.
Lord PALMERSTON—There is no denying the na i por
tance of the question which the hon. and lelearnedmemher-
, for Sheffield has brought under the consideration of the
house. It is one with respect to which, however, those
who entertain opposite opinions might equally vote for the
motion of the hon. gentleman who has moved the previous
question , • because my hon. and learned friend who mad
the original motion bas thrown down on the floor of the
house an abstract resolution, which, if it were adopted b
the house, ought to be followed up by some practical mea-
surenen.ri
for car
friend
theleraevsoelsuttoot
ion
uihnetros
th effect.
task Butof finishing
s pug
and learned
that which ho wishes to begin; and, without suggesting
any arrangement whatever by which the Government of
Ireland is to I,e carried on,
simply proposes, towards the
nelusion of the session, a resolution the effect of which is

to condemn the existing state of things—to render that
state of thins inefficient for the purposes of government
during a long course of time, and then abstains even from
hinting at the arrangement he would substitute for it.
Now, I think that is a very inconvenient mode of dealing
with a great and important question of this nature. It is
very well for hon. gentlemen to propose abstract resolu-
tions, and to leave it to the Government—if the house
should affirm such resolutions—to devise mdane of carrying
them into effect; but I conceive that this is not the manner
in which grave questions of this kind ought to be treated
in the discussions of Parliament. I think, if any hon. gen-
tleman has satisfied his own mind that the L erd-Lieutenancy
of Ireland ought to cease, he is bound, when he makes such
a proposition to the house, to suggest for its consideration
such an arrangement as he thinks calculated to supply the
place of the system which he a:ks the house immediately
and by a single resolution to condemn. With regard to
the question itself, I am bound to say that it is
one which is surrounded with great difficulties. It is quite
true that in 1850 the Government of the day not only pro-
posed the abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant, but at
the same time suggested a plan for the administration of
affairs of Ireland upon the cessation of that office. The
hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) mentioned the
names of the members of the Government who voted on
that occasion. He also mentioned the names of those who
must be supposed to have con :urred in the measure, and
among them he mentioned mine. I don't know at: this
moment how it happened that I was not present at the di-
vision ; but, undoubtedly, aea member of the Government,
I concurred with my colleagues in the measure which was
then submitted to the house. Difficulties arose, however,
with regard to the system which was proposed as a substi-
tute for the Lord Lieutenancy, and those difficulties were
so serious that the measure was dropped, and a similar
proposition has not since been submitted to Parliament.
I confess that I, for one, am not prepared at the present
moment to propose any arrangement which would bo satis-
factory, as a substitute for the Lord-Lieutenancy. Treat-
ing this merely as an abstract proposition, it must be con-
fessed that, in the present relations of the two countries, it
is difficult to argue that a separate establishment, like that
of the Lord Lieutenant, is necessary for, the conduct of af-
fairs in Ireland. It is difficult to maintain that the con-
tinuance of that office is essential to the prosperity of Ire-
land, or even to the good government of that country. At
the same time it must be confessed that many local advan-
tages result from having in Dublin an authority with
whom residents in Ireland can communicate personally, to
whom they can state face to face their wants or wishes,
and by communication with whom a great number of local
questions which it would be difficult and tedious to arrange
by correspondence may be settled without subjecting the
persons interested to the inconvenience of coming over
from Dublin to London. (Hear, hear.) The question is,
therefore, far from being so simple as the hon. and learned
gentleman seems to imagine, when he proposes by a single
vote of the House to cut short all the difficulties of the
case. It is needless, however, to say that, even if the Go-
vernment had determined upon any arrangement which
they deemed satisfactory as a substitute for the existing
system, it would be utterly impossible toexpect them tosub-
mit their plan to Parliament at this period of the session.
(A. laugh.) lam sure upon reflection my hon. and learned
friend will feel that it would not be conducive to the inte-
rests of the public service that the house should, at this
moment, condemn by its vote an existing institution which
as has been well observed, has been maintained for a long
period, and should leave that institution under the censure
and condemnation of Parliament without any definite idea
being even suggested by the mover of the resolution as to the
system upon which the affairs of Ireland are to be in future
conducted. I shall therefore certainly vote for the previous
question, and I think those hon. gentlemen who agree with
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield, that iu the ab-
stract the office of Lord Lieutenant may be dispensed with
as well as those who deem it is essential to maintain that
office, may with equal propriety vote for the motion of the
hon. member for Yarmouth (Mr. M'Cullagh), because there
cannot be a donbtthatthe resolution of the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield is one which, at the present moment,
it is inexpedient to affirm. The hon. and learned gentle-
man (Mr. Roebuck) said that those who voted for the pre-
vious question would admit their acquiescence in the mo-
tion with regard to which the previous question is pro-
posed. 'I beg leave to differ from the hon. gentleman on
that point. Those who vote for the previous question de-
clare, in effect, their opinion that, for whatever reasons, it
is not expedient that the house should, at this moment,
come to a decision upon the resolution which has been sub-
mitted to it. Those, therefore, who vote for the previous
question give no opinion, and imply no opinion, upon the
subject on which the previous question is moved, but they
simply declare that the resolution is ono which it is not
desirable that Parliament should assent to at the present
time. lam glad that my right hon. friend the late Secre-
tary for Ireland has done justice to Lard Carlisle, whose
conduct in the administration of his Government has, I
think, been most unfairly represented in the course of this
debate. lam convinced that no man who every filled the
office of Lord-Lieutenant entered upon it with a more sin-
cere desire than was entertained by Lord Carlisle to con-
duct the administration in the manner the most conducive
to the interests of Ireland and most congenial with the
feelings of Ireland. I venture to say there never was a
man who more completely carried his heart into the per-
formance of his duties than Lord Carlisle, and I think
every man acquainted with the present state of Ireland
will admit that his intentions have been fully appreciated
by the Irish people. Indeed, I believe I may say there
never was a Lord-Lieutenant who possessed more fully ,
than does Lord Carlisle the confidence and affection of the
people over whose affairs ho presides. In the adminis-
tration of the patronage with which he is invested he has
been actuated by no motive whatever except the desire of
promoting the general interests of Ireland ; and I think if
the prosperity, the tranquillity, and the good feeling of
the country can be assumed as good evidences of the me-
rits of the person by whom the government is conducted,
we have ample testimony that Lord Carlisle's administra-
tion has been most successful. It is unnecessary for me, from
the ground I have taken, to go into a detailed examina-
tion of the arguments which have bon urged either in fa-
vour of or in opposition to the abolition of the office of
Lord-Lieutenant. I have already stated that in the abstract
I think it would be difficult a priori to maintain that the
continuance of such an office is absolutely necessary. On
the other hand, I think it is evident, from what has passed
in the course of this debate, that there would be great diffi-
culty in providing a satisfactory substitute for that office,
and I skull, therefore,*vote for the previous question.
Mr. DISRAELI—I hope the house will allow one who
is neither an Irish member nor has been an Irish Secretary
to take some slight part in this debate—(hear)—and that
they will permit one English member,who holds no official
position, to offer a few remarks on the motion of the hon.
and learned member fer Sheffield. This motion is unques-
tionably one of no ordinary character. It proposes to
make a very great alteration in the administration of Ire-
land; and I think we ought to-night to have placed before
us very distinctly and precisely the reasons why such an
alteration is, in the opinion of the hon. and learned mem-
ber for Sheffield, and those who think with him, not only
expedient, but necessary and instant. (Hear.) Ido not
understand that any reasons of that kind have been placed
before us. The charges against the office are of a very ge-
neral character ; nor are they such that even were they
true would justify immediate and precipitate legislation.
(Hear.) Aa far as I can collect from the course of this de-
bate, the charges against the office of Lord Lieutenant may
be ranged under two head+. Under the first it may bo said
that the office is of a deceptive character. It has been
styled by an hon. member—not once, but twenty times—
in the course of his speech as a " sham"—the English of
which word I doubt, and the Parliamentary use of which I
have always deprecated. (Rear, and a laugh.) The reasons
brought forward to show that it is a "sham" leave not
brought any conviction to my mind; (Cheers.), It has also
been said in the debate that to a certain degree the office is
a ceremony and a pageant. Is the house prepared to abo-
lish it for that reason ? As far as I could listen to the ob-
jections of the hon, and learned gentleman, I must, say that
they are objections which would apply to almost every
high office in the state; and if it were not blasphemy—
(laughter)—to Use the expression of the hon. member for
Dungarvan (Mr. Maguire), I am not quite sure they
would not apply to the monarchy itself. If you come to
analyse all the arrangements and all the forms which sur-
round the fulfilment of office, I am not quite certain that
the highest offices of this house msght not bo proved to
be what the hon. gentleman (31r. Maguire)styles a "sham."
(Renewed laughter.) You might analyse the fulfilment
of public duties, and you might prove that a clerk—au
unknown clerk—in a Government office, might fulfil per-
haps, all those functions which attract so much public
attention, and excite so much the public confidence. You
might reduce government to much more simple and rude
forms than at,presont. But having done all this—having
destroyed all sentiment and all responsibility—some day
an awful crash will occur, and then you will discover that
all this time, while simplifying the forms of government,
you have been in effect destroying all the sources of autho-
rity—(hear)—and I might observe, in passing, that the
very speakers who tell us this office is a sham— that it is
a perfectly idle and inefficient form—tell us at the 'same
time that it meddles withieverybody and everything—that
there is nobody whom it does not corrupt, and that it is
all potent at elections—yes, the power which is described
as absolutely inefficient. What I 'want to impress upon the
house is this, that we are Called upon to make a very con-
siderable change in the administration of Ireland, and that
we have had nu case placed•before us. (Rear.) lam not
prepared to say that the form of administration which
exists in Ireland is the one best adapted for the state of
affairs in that country ; or that it is the best calculated to
deal with all the circumstances which it has to control and
contend with. At the same time Ido not agree with the
noble lord that it is 'an anomaly to have a different admi-
nistration for Ireland and England, because the circum-
stances of the two countries are the same ; for I do not
admit that the circumstances of the two countries are the
same. Bat passing from that view, I say it is absolutely
necessary to have a clear case before us ere we sanction a
change of this character. And therefore nothing but a
feeling of general discontent acting upon the Government,
or some similar influence, could justify the House of
Commons, particularly at this moment, in entering upon
the consideration of such a question. The hon. and
learned gentleman, however, evades that view of the
case. In 1850, we had the question fairly before us ; but
I would appeal to every one who remembers those times
whether the substitute offered to us did not sink before
the repeated discussions in this house. • There was no in-
disposition on the part of the house to sanction the prin-
ciple supported by the hon. and learned gentleman ; in-
deed, I believe, successive majorities sanctioned that prin-
ciple; but when we had to consider the substitute placed
before us by the Government, I would ask any one pre-
sent who was a member of the house at that time, whether
he will not bear witness to this, that night after night—
for our debates were very much prolonged—gave as the
inevitable result of discussion, that the substitute of the
Government was generally considered totally unsatisfactory
and inefficient. Well, sir, no ono can say that there is any-
thing in the circumstances of Ireland that demands such a
discussion, or that necessitates this change at the present
moment. No one will deny that, probably, at no period
Ireland was in a more tranquil or in a more satisfactory
state. lam not anxious to prove now that it is owing to
the establishment of the Lord Lieutenancy that this tran-
quillity is attributable, but, simply that it is coincident
with it. Well, what is the reason that we should come for-
ward now to effect so considerab'e a change in the mode of
administering Ireland? And this brings me to another ob-
jection which is urged against the office. It is said that
not only is the Lord Lieutenancy a sham, but that it is a
a en
t:i
,corruption. That was the second head of accusation
against the office. But what proof is there of this cor-
ruption? I do not think that in our debates at this mo-
ment we ought to go into the ancient history of Ireland,
or
obfwnetthteo that
oagffito as
ht to discuss the character of the office of
Loyd Lieutenant at the time of the union or before the
uon ee eo t
we htao,
e speak
knownof
it
th echaracterwithinown
times and experience. Now, take the last 20 years, during
which I have had experience of this house
and of public
affairs, and I want to know what evidence have we before
US that the excrciee of authority on the part of the Lord
Lieutenant was an intriguing and corrupting exercise of