The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 19.
JOURNEYMEN TAILORS.
The Earl of WALDEGRAVE them rose to present a
petition from the journeymen tailors of the metropolis,
complaining of the contract system for clothing the
army, navy, ordnance, and police. The Noble Earl
spoke for nearly three quarters of an hour on the sub-
ject of the petition ; but, with the exception of a few
unconnected words and phrases, he was completely in-
audible in the gallery, and seemed to be equally so in
the body of the House, there being only three or four
Peers left at the close of his address.
Lord MO UNTCASHELL said it was the natural re-
sult of free trade that a reduction in the means and
employment of one class of the community leads to a
reduction of the means of others, and that servants'
wages must be necessarily reduced din proportion as the
workmen and tradespeople are reduced in their means,
and will not by and by. be able to provide for the wants
of their wives and children.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that his Noble
Friend (Earl Waldegrave) had called the attention of
their Lordships to this question, to which he could not
give his support, because,unfortunately, he was prepared
to say that the journeymen tailors' general conduct
was not as worthy the attention of Government as
many other workmen. He asked was it possible for
Government to make such regulati Dna as would pre-
vent any and every class of tradespeople from being
subject to distress at some period or other ? The
Noble Earl also adverted to the system of contracts, and
said that such alterations could be made by Government
as would ameliorate the condition of the journeymen
tailors. To that he should reply that the whole business
of the country was transacted by a system of contracts;
and it was impossible to constitute any other system than
that of Government taking into their own hands the
whole manufacture of cloth and other articles with which
it is necessary that Government. should be supplied.
ShOrt of this, the attempt to introduce into contracts a
system of limitation with regard to the amount of wages
would be introducing a system which would add as
Rauch to the general expenses, and would require a whole
army of persons, and it would be impossible to supply
goods far the public service on anythiag like the same
terms as heretofore. That her Majesty's Government
will either alter the system of obtaining the public ne-
cessaries, or recommend the Legislature to adopt any
measure fur the alteration of wages now given by law,
or of introducing any scale that might meet the views of
his Noble Friend (Earl Waldegrave) never can be ex-
pected, because any such introduction would not fail to
be attended with considerable inconvenience and disad-
vantage, even to that class for which the Noble Earl is
so interested.

ISThe Duke of ARGYLE postponed his intention of pre-
venting a petition against the alteration •f parochial
schools in Scotland.

Their Lordships'then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 19.
SLAVE TRADE—AFRICAN SQUADRON.
Mr. HUTT (in continuation from our Fourth
Edition of last night) proceeded to say—Among
the Foreign.office for thirty-five years. Among
those who thought that this traffic could be put down
by a system of force there were many who thought that
the present application of it was one which needed great
alteration. Among these were thellon.Mernber for Derby-
sbire,who had proposed a scheme of his own for the pur-
pose; and many others had been proposed, all. of which
involved an additional force and additional expense.
What was the fact? The number of vessels at present
employed in the suppression of theslaaveetraaly onedle.,ex fourthc.luding
packets and surveying vessels, was actually
of the whole British navy afloat. There were from 26
to 29 vessels on the west coast of Africa; three at the
Cape station, with the receiving ship; three, with the
receiving ship, on the east coast of South America; and
two in the West Indies; making between 39 and 40 in
all. Yet, in the opinion of certain naval officers, that
force was inadequate for the purpose; and though
700,0001. a year was expended, these officers desired
nothing but the augmentation of this expense. He was
aware it was considered a want of good breeding to talk
about expense, and it seemed to be ruled that drafts on
the Treasury for the maintenance of the public force
should not be named in that House; nevertheless, he
(Mr. Hutt) should be quite ready to brave the wit and
sarcasm of the Noble Lord in showing that the slave
trade cost the country 700,000/. per annum. The Noble
Lord had told him on a former occasion that those per-
sons did not think deeply who spoke of expenses; he
(Mr. Hutt), however, believed that public extravagance
was a great evil. He believed also that if it should
ever be the fate of this great country to fall in pieces,
it
would not be by the explosion of revolutionary
violence it would fAll, nor would that lamentahli event
be brought about by the strife of parties or the shock of
democratic power, but by the confusion o f its finances—
(Hear)—by that disregard of the nations 1 expenditure,
which, in some fatal hour, would, after' sapping the
foundations of national credit, finally rive it to the cen-
tre. He hoped the Noble Lord would pardon him,
therefore, for saying that he considered 700,000/. per

annum too great an expense for the support of an abor-
tive system.—(Hear, hear.) He was glad to see some-
thing said of a plan for maintaining the squadron and at
the same time of relieving the public of a considerable
expense, because it was an acknowledgment of the ne-
ce,,ity of so doing ; but he should prefer to have an ex-
planation of the means proposed to effect that object.
He did not, however, object to the present system solely
on the ground of expense ; he objected to it on the
ground of its futility—he objected to it on the ground
that it caused increased cruelty on the part of slave-
traders—and he objected to it, above all, because he did
not desire to see this great and noble nation engaged in
a pursuit so inadequate—a pursuit in which she could
not count on the sympathy of any other nation. He ob-
jected to it because it engendered ill-blood between Eng-
land and the people of Brazil—he objected to it because
it provoked quarrels with France and America, which
may be renewed :at no distant :date—he objected to it
because he considered it a most sinister advantage
for which to involve a country in the horrors and
wretchedness of war.—(Hear.) He was told that some
measures would be proposed at last to bring this unfor-
tunate business to a satisfactory conclusion; but for the
last twenty years he had heard that song constantly sung
by those who were anxious to keep up the present sr"
tern, and he had listened to it too long to heed it."'
(Hear.) When he entered the House of Commons,
eighteen years ago, the opponents of the system were
told that it was to be settled by negotiation—then came
ihe right of search—then came the equipment articles--
then came the blockade of the coast of Africa—then
came the Niger expedition—then all future hopes were
rested on the combined fleets of France and England
and then all, was to be settled by the application of mu-
nicipal law. Some other modification was now proposed
oa the old system, to the same imaginary purpose—
" Vain Hope!
When I consider life 'tis all a cheat;
Yet fooled by hope, men favour the deceit,
Trust on, and think to-morrow will repay;
To-morrow's falser than the former day,
Lies more—"

He hai now done. He had not sought to back up his
case by an apeal to the Members of that House as guar-
dians of the interests and property of the country, as pro-
tectors of their honour and fame, as humane and Claris-
lean men, to put an end to that cruel and destructive
system, whose final doom could not be at any distance,
by supporting the motion he had now the honour to
submit to the House.—(Loud cheers.)
Mr. BAILLIE seconded the motion. If for no other
reason than the state of cur West India colonies, the
House was bound to adopt it, though he by no means
wished to take such a circuitous method of restoring that
protection of which they had been deprived. Ile pre-
ferred the course ()leaning upon her Majesty's Ministers
to adopt a straightforward policy, regardless of any
difficulties which such such a course might appear to in-
volve. When this subject was last before the House the
Noble Lord deprecated all discussion until the subject
was farther inquired into. He said then that there was
no need for farther inquiry. The returns to that House
for the last 20 years had shown the utter futility of our
efforts to suppress the slave trade. But at the same time
he must say that he did not regret the Lords' Committee
had investigated the question. They had collected en,
immense mass of evidence scattered through a variety et
authorities, and had condensed it in an authoritative
shape. All doubt was now dispelled—not the shadow of
a reason now remained for maintaining this squadron.
A great change had taken place in the uspect cf this
question since the introduction of the Sugar Bill in
1846.—(Hear, hear.) Previous to that period, whatever
might be said of the policy of Great Britain, her earnest-
ness and philanthropy could not be doubted, because
she made large sacrifices.—(Hear, hear.) But that
as now altered. The Bill of 1846 in effect said
the British people thought they had paid enough
for their philanthropy, and were in future re-
solved to buy their sugar at the cheapest market,
no matter whether it was the produce of free labour or
of slave labour. That was a renunciation of our former
policy, and from that moment great Britain derived the
greatest advantage of any nation from the slave trade,
and was there:ter° as guilty as the nations which engaged
in it. The receiver of stolen goods was generally con-
sidered even worse than the open thief. The thief en-
countered all the dang-rs of his calling, but the receiver
kept a shop as a cloak to his calling—he was a " respect-
able man," and came off with the greatest part of the
plunder.—(A laugh.) So it was with this country by
the Act of 1846. Up to that time all free-grown sugar
was imported under certain duties, while slave-grown
sugars were prohibited.—(Hear, hear.) When that pro-
hibition was withdrawn, and the sugars of Cuba and
Brazil were admitted into our markets, we, in effect, gave
a great stimulus and support to the slave trade. But our
support did not rest Chart.; the slaves were purchased by
goods manufactured in Manchester expressly:for the pur-
pose, and in many other ways the capital of this country
was directly embarked in the trade.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), when that
measure was proposed, saw that it was a reversal of his
own policy when in office, but he said that he supported
it, because 'he did not see how another Government
could be then formed. He did not blame the Right
Honourable Baronet for the course ho then took on thus
question, though he must have been aware that it would
double the slave trade. Sulk had been the result of the
measures of the present Government. It was utterly im-
possible that the free labour of our own colonies could
compete with the slave labour of Cuba and Brazil; the
result of the attempt had been that described by his Hon.
Friend, who had so ably brought forward this motion.
The grounds on which the motion had been supported
resolved themselves into three. First, that it was the
opinion of all the naval officers who had been employed
on the coast of Africa that it was impossible to suppress
the' slave trade by means of the present squadron, or by
any practical auhmentation of its force. Second, that it
was the opinion of these officers that the interference of
our ships had largely increased the horrors of the
trade and the sufferings inflicted upon the slaver, and
through the folly and absurdity of the Legislature of
this country. in maintaining a squadron on the coast
of Africa for the suppression of the slave trade,
while, at the same time, we encouraged that trade by
the admission of free-grown sugar. His Hon. Friend
had already adduced ample evidence on each of these
points, and it was, therefore, unnecessary fur him to
detain the House at any length, but, in addition,
he would call the attention of the House to the evidence
of Captain Shad, of the Excellent, who, being unable
to attend the Committee, had stated the result of his eV'
perience in a letter. In that letter he decidedly stated
it to be his opinion that our interference had largely in-
creased the horrors of the slave trade, and that he did
not believe it was possible to put it down by any re'
pressive means. The Hon. Gentleman, after adducing
evidence of a similar description in support of the gene-
ral arguments on these heads, said, that while such were'
the lamentable results hf the policy they had pursued, he
did not for one moment doubt the sincerity of those by.
whom that policy had been originated. He was quit*
ready to admit this motion was a melancholy result a(
their labours. To such men as Lords Brougham snit
Denman and Sir S. Lushington, it must be a source o:f
great regret to find that the slave trade was carried ott
as much as ever, and that the effect of their labours heel
been to destroy their own colonies, without producing
the effect they desired; and that the Legislature, having
succeeded in establishieg free trade, there should also lad
a free trade in slavery.—(Hear.)
Mr. W. EVANS begged leave to withdraw the
amendment of which he had given notice on the
subject of the slave-trade, and in doing so he would
matte a few observations on and against the motion.
before the House. He denied the statement made by
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hutt) that the slave trade was noses
carried on to a grester extent than before the time th e
squadron had been placed on the African coast. By de •
returns it appeared that in the ten years ending in 184. i
the number of slavers seized was 687, being equal to
vessel and a half a week. Then as to the number
slaves imported into Cuba, it appeared that previous to 3
the squadron being placed on the coast it was 40.000
a year; yet, in 1345, the number had decreased to 1,334 ;
in 1836, to 1,500; and in 1847, to 1,700. Then it
peered that previous to 1838 the number of slaves iv r
ported into the Brazils was 94,000 a year; but after tb e$
year, when British officers bad power to seize vessels, t be
number was reduced to 39,000, and in 1846 to 14,244,'
(Hear.) He thought it would be most unwise to rem we
the squadron, and allow all sorts of plunder to tt -1/4e
place, and destroy the efforts made to christianize 1;0
people on the African coast. The Hon. Gentlest efl
then referred to the manner in which the old slave-trs ,
was carried on, and to the great loss of life which to oh
place on board the slave ships which came to this cot tr
try. Although the trade was thus carried on under
regulations, what then, he asked, would be the case if the
trade in slavers was now thrown open and became my
tirely free? If the squadron raised the price of the slat/
there was a great chance that the slave would be takiii
greater care of than if the matter were otherwise. WiA
respect to the expense of the squadron, he thought tbst,
that expense might be lessened by the size of the Tessele
being reduced. He also thought that if the prise mon 51
for the capture of vessels that did not contain slaves, bull
which were known to be intended for that trade v'a
increased, they would do much to enhance the value e't
the African squadron. He could not agree on any term 0
to the motion before the House, and should therefor e
vote against it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he rose to address tb
House with feelings of great anxiety in respect to the
motion before it, for he looked upon that motion, if sac'
cessful, as one seriously calculated to affect the honour'
and character of the country.—(Hear.) His Honour,
able Friend who brought the motion forward, and the
Hon. Gentleman by whom it was seconded, slid not dis-
guise from themselves or from the House the important
consequences likely to arise from the removal of that
squadron from the African coast, and yet they call upon
the House to remove the squadron without proposing,.
any substitute to prevent the traffic in slaves.—(Hear.)'
By this motion they announce to the world that hehcel-.
forward this execrable traffic was to be carried on with
out let or hindrance, as far as this country was con..
cerned—that henceforward we were to take no hnteretit
in the fate of slaves captured on the coast of Africa, an,ci
that all our previous exertions on this subject were to
be forgotten and cast to the winds.—(Hear.) He tie'
lieved that if they adopted snch a course, they wohjd
not represent the feelings of the people of England ell
this great question. Ile believed that if; after woe
deliberation, that House adopted the rstrogt ode
course reecmmended by his Hon. Friend, the
people of this country would either now, or at aotee
other time, bring them to account for rnisrepresenew,g
their feeling on this important subject. His Hon. Feieeet
and the Hon. Seconder of the motion, did not disgter
from themselves the consequences likely to arise, if this
motion succeeded, and it was admitted that the neces-
sary result must be, that the slave trade would be re-
vived in its hideousness. He rejoiced, then, that there
was no misunderstanding in respect to the question, 011"
he would now beg the House to weh well the evidence
which he would
.submit to its consideration, and !e°
whether it was wise or right in them to adot the 'notion
of his ,Hon. Friend; end here he :must express his oar'

nitrl_s,e that J.:is Hon. Prierd had quoted Sir C. Hotham in
u riport_if et his victve. Wny he (Mr. Leboucbere) would,
o lied no othe;• evidence to refer to, rest his whole
the eptsesition to the motion of his Hon. Friend, to
ditet•tstireony of Sir C. llothaer. 'I hat gallant officer
dcciared that he would not consent to the re-
n'"".lar. of the squadron on the African coast until a sub-
"Le was found to prevent the traffic in slaves. No
I'o d ets
dePi
atiila,o the h orror of that traffic, or the evils of the
passage, with greater power, or warmer indigos-
2an h Sir C. Hotbeen.—(Hear, hear.) Then. with
pest to the question of authority, his Hoe. Friend
'd on the report cf a Committee of the House on
,this
ef• ts,latittat; but surely the report of a similar Committee
foie 11_,° House ought to have its iefluerce with his Hon.
fil u". The Comm;te,e of the House of Lords came
cile_w:' opposite conelipion from that rrived at by the
that aittee of the House of Commonas; they reported
she It was not desirable to remove the squadron from
African coast. His Hon. Friend seemed to antici-
Ztet that, the members of the Government would repu-
maon° the question of economy in respect to this gees-
e • It was true that the Government was bound to
tir4ider the qoestion of economy, but ho believed that
afe ol Erieland would not, on the mere qaestion
0,„ onomy alone, call for the removal of the squadron
tiltlho African coast, and by doing so give up their che-
slaved hopes and their anxious desire to put down the
th: tradea..._(Hear, hear.) Bat did lion. Gentlemen
tth!.°lk that if this squadron were removed there were no
fituu 'Pa% In these seas to protect our trade? He rather
reit that the constituents of the Hon. Gentleman
erJosite (Mr. Cardwell), who bad a large and, ho was
.43, to say, increasing trade with the native tribes of
Afr
left ica, would not be very well satisfied if that trade was
tot "PrOtceted ; and he would here observe, that it was
the extension of the trade of this country
with the native tribes of Africa that he looked for
final extinction of the slave trade.—(Heir, hear.)
t`"ki withdrawal of the squadron would restore the slave-
'rule
and give it a strength which they could not efter-
eeru3 obviate. Another point adverted to by the Hon-
,4"lernan who had just sat down was, as to the influence
,a
1-" ch it exercised in the diminution of the transport of
'slaves from Africa. There could be no doubt that it had
thats, effect.—(No.) If not, how would thy account for
the increase in the price of slaves. The price of an adult
slave in Cuba was now 1001., while in Africa the
trht'rce e was not more than 201. They might judge what
th tisk af the transport was through the intervention of
uluadron when he stated that Messrs. Hedge offered
I:econtract for the transport of emigrants from Sierra
th 'Pa% to the West Indies, paying every attention to
aealr comforts on the passage, at 6/. Is. 101. per head,
fru.yl it might be assumed that the price, if the trade was
0, would not be greater to Cuba, and that the cost at
ealba would not be more than 26/. 103. He thought
that the effect of having the price of slaves diminished
would be to cause to be resumed the practice of what was
secalled " using them up," which was attended with the
t-ihtlet frightful results an cruelties. In 1821, before
tt" preventive squadron was established, the cost of
Slave was 20 dollars, but in 1547 it was 500 dollars,
7,,,a iu 1848 it rose to 800 dollars. At Cuba in 1821 the
121'n'tee of a slave was 100 dollars, while in 1847 it was
uct dollars. He, therefore,was justified in saying that
th,
,s" ' squadron did diminish the number of slaves. He
auld now refer to the opinion of Sir Charles Hotham,
'44,, given before the Lord' Committee, who stated that
fle withdrawal of the squadron, without providing a
substitute, would be giving up the whole question. He
said farther, that to withdraw the squadron would be
narious to the honour of the country; and when inter-
dv?gated who it would ho injerious to the interest of
bt country, he replied that in this case tl ey were iden-
'eal, and he added that cruelty to the slaves would be
greatly increased by the withdrawal of the squadron.
ht,, Charles Hotham, by the answers he gave before
7at Committee, repudisted the use of his name. There
was another portion of the question to be considered
(Tore they agreed to the resolution, which was the
effect it would have upon the people of Africa. It
would have the effect of stimulating war and bleed •
abed among the natives, and renew those horrors
Which fur two hundred years they had endeavoured to
*Prevent. He thought, too, that this was a most inaus-
PiCious moment to withdraw the squadron, when events
were in progress c4lculated t o improve the condition of
1:h0 natives. They all knew the effect which the Re-
Public of Liberia was producing, under the Presidency
of Mr. Roberts. Ile had the good fortune of meeting
that gentleman, and he could not but state that it was
bloat fortunate that it was under the guidance of so able
a Man. That republic was establishing relations with
the neighbouring states, extending its territories, and
dieusi its civilizing , ng civilizi tendencies around it. It should
Lao be noted that there was in negotiation a treaty for
the purchase of the Carinas, which had long been the
seat of the horrors of tho slave trade, and also for the
establishment of commercial relations with Dahomey.
sr,
'alio recant purchase of the Danish forts would greatly
'contribute to diminish the slave trade. The result of
these circumstances would be to give a line
" coast of 1,500 miles completely redeemed
from the slave trade. He thought that the con-
tinuance of the 'squadron would greatly promote these
Ilegotiations, and that it would, therefore, be most in-
iudicious at such a time to withdraw it. He had also to
?ok to the injurious effect it would have upon the Bri-
tish colonies. His Hon. Friend desired that the trade
41111 l be open. If that was the case, and the squadron
kithdrawn, the trade would be carried on by British ca.
}Pita' and British seamen. Ile was sure his Hon. Friend
'did not mean to revive the slave trade; but if the trans-
Port of these people was allowed nosier the name of eml-
Rration, British ships would go to Africa for the purpose
?fengaging in the trade. He was surprised that the resc-
lution should leave been seconded by a gent'eman con-
nected with the West Indies. Now what the West Indies
nio©t complained of was the want of labour, and could not
Ibaderatand why facilities should be afforded in acquiring
slaves to their competitors. He thought he saw symp-
toms of revival in the West India colonies. The export
°t sugar from Jamaica was 657,000 tons, and in 1847
end 1848 it was 689,000. In Trinidad there was an
',...ocrease of 1,693 tons; and in Antigua of 2,334 tons.
n
the
would only refer to the other document, he meant
'no annual report of Governor Berkeley, in which
it was stated that with reduced prices the colony was
depressed, but that notwithstanding this depreciation he
had still hopes of improvement. Under these circum-
stances it would be a most inauspicious moment to make
the change proposed, the result of which would be to
Five their competitors an unlimited supply of slave la-
hour. was surprised at the illustration to which his
ion. Friend resorted, when he said that we appeared in
this case to lose sight of the principles which regulated
'the operations of trade--an illustration taken from silk
arid tobacco, where the intervention of the smuggler cor-
ttected the effects of extravagant duties, and consequent
high prices. But it should be considered that this was
hot a question of silk or tobacco. It was one of a diffe-
rent and higher character, and in which the feelings of
the people were at, variance with the revival of the slave
trade. On these grounds he entreated them not to agree
to the resolutic o. He did not, however, mean to pledge
them to the p erpetual continuance of this force. That
liras another question. If any other substitute could be
4lnggestetl, or means devised, let them bring forward
their ph,, a, and they would discuss it. He had no predi-
lection for this plan if a better could be provided. He
did not give his support to this measure as a member of
the Greveenment. If there was any policy that was not
Peculiar to a particular political transaction, or to a par-
ticular Government, it was the question of the suppres-
'ion o f the slave trade.—(Fiear, hear.) He did not,
bows ver, wish to shelter himself under that. The Go-
Vet', invent participated in the general feeling, and were
are eious to wipe off the disgraceful blot of the slave trade.
Mr. G. BERKELEY said it had been stated that
:great good would result from altering the size of the
:ships employed in this squadron. He had been in corn-
.thunication with a gentleman who was well acquainted
with this trade, and he would ask the Government
whether it was not a fact that large steam-vessels were
engaged in this trade, which were capable of carrying
from 1,400 to 2,000 slaves, and which could outstrip any
sailing ships ? He had another remark to make,
'which, was, that this was another recommenda-
tion to throw good money after bad, of which they
bad already done enough. The Right Hon. Gentleman
Said that the people of this country would not consent
upon mere motives of economy, to see the British squad-
r-un withdrawn from the African coast. Now, what was
'the reason why they refused to protect the free-grown
produce of sugar, hut motives of economy, and was not
that the motive that led to the abandonment of the
policy of excluding slave-grown sugar? The Right
Hon. Gentleman admitted that the squadron was ineffec-
tive. Why, then, maintain it? When slavery was
abolished in our dominions they should have seen that
the treaties for its abolition by other nations were kept,
`whereas the fact was, they were violating those treaties
daily. The Right lion. Gentleman said that British
-adventurers would embark in this trade if the squadron
'were withdrawn, but he doubted that. The best, the
most effective, the most religious way to put down
:slavery, was to interdict slave-grown produce in our
markets. British Guiana, and some other colonies, were
rapidly returning to a state of barbarism under the new
policy. The Hon. Member for Lynn would bear him
out in that statement. He thought that this squadron
was totally ineffective for the purposes for which it was
.placed there, and as the House would do good by its re-
'moval, he most cordially supported the motion.
Sir GEORGE PECIIELL said he trusted the House
Would not agree to our taking a position which would
Ic,wer us as to the'position which this nation enjoyed.—
(Hear.) He had ever endeavoured to promote the effi-
,ciency of this service. In 1819 when the Noble Lord
came forward with a motion for an address to the Crown
to compel foreign nations to fulfil their treaties, he never
listened with greater satisfaction. Their records would
show that the squadron was not ineffective. It
Might have been more effective. As to large
steamers being employed in the slave traffic, bidding de-
Lance to the fleet, he thought that there was no steamer
larger than the Cyclops, which was on that station.
Although their efforts bad been in some measure unsuc-
cessful, yet they had performed a very large amount of
Pamd. He hoped, therefore, that the squadron would be
'continued. The naval authorities, by sending out old
vessels, had not duly supported the Noble Lord in car-
rying out the treaties of this country. Some Hon.
Gentlemen supported the motion on economical
principles, but if so, they ought to have suggested
this motion upon the motion of the Honourable
Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden) ;
not that he wished to reduce the fleet on the
coast of Africa, but rather on the coast of Greece, and
some other stations.—(Oh.) What did Mr. Hutton say
before the Committee of the House of Lords? Was it
not this, that the moment we withdrew our fleet from the
African coast, his ships would be driven into the sea?
Therefore, if on that ground our squadron were taken
a, way, it would be no economy at all, for piracy, robbery,
nt d every species of iniquity would arise immediately
upe'n the disappearance of the squadron.—(Hear, hear.)
Then what other means were there for putting down
this traffic? Treaties with the native chiefs? But to
nduce them to believe that they were sincere, they
hold ailow that we ourrielves were sincere by keeping

our fleet there. It was said, that all the naval officers
examined before the Committee of the House of Lords
were against the fleet being continued there. But were
not Sir C. Sutherland. Ceptain liaison, and Captain
Denman opposed to it? It was said also, that it was
impossible effectually to blockade 1,300 miles of ccast,
intersected by inland communication; but there were no
more in reality than about 200 miles of coast. They
had not withdrawn blockades in former times because
they were in some measure unsuccessful, and why should
they on this? He thought the fleet ought to be made
more effective, and should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. C. ANSTEY said that the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had addressed himself to the interest
of the class to which he belonged, but that was not the
matter more immediately in question, to which he would
endeavour to bring the House back; but if like him (Sir
G. Pechell) he had turned his attention to one point, and
one point alone, he should vote for the motion of the
Hon. Member for Gateshead. It was a painful situation
for gallant officers to promote the pacification of Africa
by making war on all the rest ef the world. These
gallant officers had before them one or two alterna-
tives, either to do nothing, or to violate the law of na-
tions by endeavouring to carry out this Utopian object.
They must sacrifice every other consideration to carry
into effect that particular treaty. Accordingly, the
Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary, who had distin-
guished himself in carrying out this treaty, had found
it necessary to have some of his instructions revoked.
The Hon. Captain Denman and other officers employed in
that service, had, upon their return home, been crippled
by actions in consequence of their efforts to carry out
their instructions.—(Cries of " No, no.") The lion.
Captain Penman, in his evidence before the Com-
mittee of the House of Lords, stated that it was his duty
to obey the commends given to hint for the suppression
of the slave trade on the coast of Africa; but that gal-
lant officer was of opinion that the means employed were
not efficient for that purpose, and the only means in his
opinion by which this country could hope to put down
the slave trade, would he by a Legislative Bill, the out-
line of which he gave, and the object of which would be
a thorough blockade of the coast of Africa. But what
did the Legislature proceed to do on this part of the
question? It proposed to pass a Bill which would give
indemnity to all offenders for the past, and impose re-
sponsibility for the future. The Hon. and Gallant
Member (Sir G. Pechell) had adverted to a treaty with
the black chiefs for the suppression of the slave trade;
but that experiment was tried on a former occasion; and
the treaty proved abortive, and was but a mere mode cf
evasion of the question.—(Hear, hear.) He held in his
hand the form of one of those treaties, and he found at
the foot of that treaty these words:—" That in con-
sideration of the signature attached at the foot of
this treaty, the Queen of England pledges herself to
Almighty God, to give unto the chief one pair of boots,
one shirt, and, of course, fire-arms, together with
some other insignificant presents."—(Laughter.) Now
that was one of the modes of evasion resorted to on this
question. What was the course which it was now pro-
posed to pursue? Were they th address the Queen?
No. But they were to ask other powers to concur with
them in putting down this traffic. Now what was the
result of all their proceedings on this question? Why
they had found that 38,041 slaves were decimate' in
their efforts to put down this traffic. At 10 par cent.,
38,041 slaves had actually died. He found, on the other
hand, according to Mr. Cliff's evidence, the slave trade,
prior to 1831, was conducted by the Brazilians with
great humanity, and the mortality never exceeded 3 per
cent. Notwithstanding the " head money" offered for
the suppression of this traffic, a vast number of slaves
had teen landed in Brazils, and their price had actually
fallen in the Brazilian market. Now what was the evi-
dence of Lord Howden? He (Mr. Anstey) should like
to know whether the Government of this country were
to go on now with measures which were found to be
fruitless, or whether they were to take other measures.
Should they recall their squadron, seeing that it had
greatly aggravated the horrors of the slave trade?
An Hon. MEMBER—NO.
Mr. ANSTEY.—Humanity says" No," and economy
says " Yes." Economy demanded it, but humanity
forbade it. lie thought they could reconcile both
principles, and that by the abolition of the Sugar
Duties Act they would do more to suppress the
traffic in slavery than by any other means which they had
yet had recourse to.
Sir R. INGLIS considered that the opinions given by
Sir George Pechell on this subject—opinions which the
Hon. Member who had just sat down had spoken lightly
of—were, as those of an experienced naval officer, to he
regarded as of importance by the House. He (Sir
Robert Inglis) thought that the treaties with the black
chiefs, if followed up, would have proved of the greatest
value in the endeavours to suppress this most abhorent
traffic, and of the greatest good. Last year they were
told by an Hon. Member in that House who was
anxious for the withdrawal of the squadron from the
coast of Africa, that it cost this country 500,000/.
a year to maintain it. Another Member made it
700,0001.; and another Hon. Member, not content with
that, had increased the cost to 1,000,000/. Now, the
expense of maintaining the blockading squadron in 1846-7
was not 500,000/, nor 700,0001., but only 300,000/.,
and that including wear and tear of vessels, and
all other matters. And, in reference to a reduction of
the expense, the utmost it could be reduced to would be,
according to evidence, in the proportion which twelve
ships bear to twenty-four. Were they prepared, for
such a saving as that, to abandon their efforts to sup-
press a traffic like this, which had decimated humanity?
Were they prepared to pursue such a course? Since
the equipments, the number of captures had been im-
portant. In the ten years from 1830 the number of
slavers taken were not less than 656, if his memory
served him correctly; and of the 656 vessels taken, 450
were captured close to the coast, a fact which led an
experienced naval officer to advise, as the most effectual
means of suppressing the traffic, that they should keep
an efficient squadron on the coasting service. They
should consider this question in reference to the progress
of civilisation, the feelings of humanity, and the progress
and character of Christianity.—(‘Heat, hear.) He could
not but advert, and he did so with much satisfaction, to
a petition which had been presented to the House on
this subject by the Noble Lord at the head of her Ma-
jesty's Government. And here he must do the Noble
Lord the justice to say that ho had always raised his
voice against slavery. The petition to which he (Sir R.
Inglis) had alluded, as presented by the Noble Lord,
was from the liberated slaves at Sierra Leone, and
prayed the House not to consent to the withdrawal of
the British squadron from the coast of Africa, and to
adopt effectual means for the suppression of the slave
trade. The petitioners went further, and prayed the
House to examine some of themselves on the subject;
and from the manner in which they expressed them-
selves in their petition, he (Sir R. Inglis) considered
that the House could not have better witnesses. They
stated in their petition that commerce was carried on in
the settlement by native industry; and the appeal which
they made ought not, in his opinion, to be disregarded
by the House.—(Hear, hear.) They owed it not merely
to the race of Africans, but to their own subjects, not to
afford the slightest pretence for giving further encou-
ragement to the slave trade. In the Committee whence
the report had issued favourable to the withdrawal, no
less than six resolutions, proposed by different Members,
were either carried or rejected by the casting vote of
the chairman, Mr. Hutt, and it, therefore, not unnatu-
rally, was called Mr. Hutt's committee. In his heart he
believed it was inconsistent with the cause of humanity,
inconsistent with the spirit of civilisation in Africa, and
inconsistent with the national honour, to withdraw the
spuadron from the coast of Africa, and therefore, he
Implored the House, and especially those friends with
whom it was usually his happiness, to co-operate, to
consider well the consequences of the motion before they
suffered themselves to be deluded into a consent to its
support.
Lord HARRY VANE said; after considerable hesita-
tion he had come to the conclusion of supporting the
motion. Before he proceeded to state the grounds on
which he intended giving his vote to the Hon. Member
for Gateshead, he felt desirous of making one or two
remarks in reference to certain statements made by the
Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade and
the Hon. Baronet the Member for the University of
Oxford. Both those Hon. Gentlemen evidently desired
to impress the House with the conviction that the deli-
berations of the Committee were valid by the casting
vote of the chairman, but in point of fact there were two
other members of the Committee absent on the principal
division, and as their opinions were known to coincide
with those of the chairman, the resolutions were in
reality carried not by one casting vote, but by three
votes. It was not on the ground of economy alone that
he advocated the withdrawal of the squadron, and in
this respect he differed from the Hon. Member for
Gateshead. He took into consideration the long
series of years this country had endeavoured to effect
a suppression of the slave rade. He recollected the
efforts made by various Ministers at the head of
the Government with the same view, and he saw
' how unsuccessful those efforts had proved. Under
Captain Denman the partial success in suppressing slave
traffic was not attributable to the presence of the squa-
dron, but arose from and was coincident with the co-
operation of the Brazilian Government. At one time
there were 40,000 slaves imported into Cuba, but there
were now very few. The decrease, however, he had
the authority of General Alvez for stating, arose from
the co-operation of the authorities. Ho did not believe,
nor did he contend that they could dispense with the
maintenance of some portion of the squadron on the
coast of Africa and Sierra Leone. If they desired to
succeed in suppressing the slave trade, they should
blockade the eastern and western coasts of Africa. If
they were prepared to make efforts on so extensive a
scale, they would then be right in continuing their
squadron. It was because he believed they could not
carry on a scale of sufficient magnitude, and that it was
not in their power to continue effective measures for a
length of time, that le thought it desirable to make the
alteration suggested. The question of providing a sub-
stitute for the squadron was one of great difficulty, but
he thought that it sloe weld not be urged as an argument
against removing an expensive force, whose presence
had not been productive of anticipated good results in
the suppression of the slave trade. Having been a mem-
ber of the Committee, and feeling anxious to justify
the vote he intended giving, as well as being desirous
of correcting certain statements made by the Right
Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, he had tres-
passed on the time of the House, and he concluded by
expressing his intention of giving a reluctant vote in
favour of the motion.
Mr. CARDWELL regretted the course which the
Noble Lord had indicated his intention of pursuing.
The question they had to decide was, should they or
should they not make a. surrender of the policy which
they had so long pursued, with a view to the suppression
of the slave trade. He deceived himself very much— if a
fair analysis of the proceedings on which the present
motion should rest would not stand in favourable con-
trast with many of the statements in connexion with the
subject recently snide public, and with some of the
speeches delivered that evening. They were told that
the operations of the squadron had been futile. If it

was meant by such a statement that the squadron had
been of little, if any good, then he could show, from in-
disputable evidence, that the repression of the traffic in
slaves had been considerable, and it the withdrawal of the
squadron were advocated, on the ground of economy,
they had the authority of eminent naval officers for
saying that the squadron should be maintained some-
where. He looked for the effective suppression of the
trade more to the influence of civilisation, and
to the introduction of the Christian religion into the
slave-producing countries. But suppression to a con-
siderable extent had already taken place. From the
north of Africa to within five degrees of the equator
there was not a shadow of the slave trade. Captain
Dunlop's evidence went to show that the presence of
the squadron had a most beneficial effect at the Ga-
lenos ; and he believed, from the statement of that gen-
tleman, that if they possessed the power of inflicting
chastisement on the slave-traffickers, the repression
would be still greater. The slave trade had been put
down in Cuba, but if they withdrew the naval force the
price of slaves would 'fall, and then they would have
a renewal of the slave trade in Cuba. Such, at least,
was the opinion of Mr. Kennedy, the Consul at Havau-
rash ; and it was fully es:ablished by other authorities.
Toe slave traffic, he acknowledged. had not been re-
pressed in Brazil. The native Brazilians discouraged
the traffic, and the Portuguese capitathts carried it on,
being in communication with the colonies on the west
coast of Africa. So far as the Brazils was concerned
there was the testimony of a commercial gee-
d( man, resident there, to the effect that were the
squadron withdrawn from the coast of Africa great
facilities would be afforded for the extension of the
slave titiffic; which he had no doubt would be taken ad-
vantage of, as in his opinion the extension of that traffic
entirely depended on the withdrawal of the means at
present used for the suppression. That was the testimony
of a commercial gentleman resident in the Brazils, who
would not be apt to be led away by what was cabal the
sentimentality of the subject, and who must be held to
know what was the nature of the facts connected with it.
Th© effect of the present system of repression had been
to raise the price of slaves both in Cuba and Brazils; but
once the squadron withdrawn, additional facilities would
be given to the transmission, and consequently there
would be a reduction in the price of them. It seas, how-
ever, said, that the measures which had been taken had
been the means of increasing the sufferings consequent
upon the slave trade; but en examining into the evidence
of those best calculated to speak on that subject he found
the reverse to be the case.—(Hear.) He had looked into
the debates which had previously taken place on the sub-
j ecnbut on referring to the evidence of Sir Charles Hotham,
he found that the mortality under the present system
only amounted to about five per cent., which was a great
reduction as compered with firmer periods. So far
from the present measures not having the desired effect.
he found from the admirals, both on the eastern and
western coast of Africa, that the slave trade had been
greatly put a stop to; and what was most gratifying
was, that while the admirals of this country were taking
steps for the suppression of slavery on that coast, the
French and American admirals did their best to second
their efforts. Finding all this to be the case he could
not, as an honest man, come down to that House and
say that the House should take on itself the responsibi-
lity of abolishing a system which had been attended
with such beneficial effects. Much had been said about
the disparity of opinion between the two Committees
which had sat on the subject; but in 1848, it must be
remembered, that they had not the evidence of Sir
Charles Hotham, otherwise he had no doubt that Lord
Courtenay would have come to a different conclusion
from what he did. Sir Charles Hothaw expressly said
in his evidence that, were they to withdraw the squadron
from the coast of Africa small speculators would spring
up for the purpose of trading in slaves, and it would
be impossible to calculate the consequences which
would ensue. As he, therefore, was connected with a
borough which was intimately connected in respect of
trade with the western coast of Africa, he would ask the
House whether it would be judicious to withdraw their
squadron from that coast, and leave the trade carried en
with it, and all other interests connected with it totally
unprotected? No doubt the expense of the squadron
was complained of; but, in respect of that, he must say
that he could observed in the House, in respect of public
expenditure, this remarkable circumstance. When any-
one wanted anything carried out which was conceived
to he of public utility, did the Government object to it on
the ground of its tieing too expensive, immediately there
was a cry raised that they were a set of twopenny •balt-
penny fellows, and were not deserving of their places,
because they refused what was conceived so great a boon;
but then, again, when this money so expetaded came to
appear in the estimates, notwithstanding all the clamour
which had been raised for having it voted originally,
those same parties turned round and accused the Go-
vernment of lavish and profuse expenditure.—(Hear.)
Upon the whole, therefore, considering this motion to
aim at a reversal of a policy which he considered sound,
he would give it a decided negative.—(Hear, hear.)
Captain PELHAM said that while they were told
that the efforts in putting down the slave trade had,
failed, he was prepared to show that it would be in-
jurious not only to the interests of Africa, but also to
the commercial interests of this country, were the pre-
seat motion adopted. He considered that the opinion
of Sir Charles Hotham was perfectly misunderstood.—
(Cries of " Divide " by gentlemen opposite.) No one
could deny that there were fewer slaves imported now
from the Brazils and Cuba than there formerly was, and
what had led to that result was the operations of the
squadron on the African coast. That of itself, then, was
a sufficient reason why it ought not to be withdrawn.
At one time there was no less than 94,000 slaves im-
ported annually into the Brazils, but now the traffic was
almost put a stop to. It was said that the force em-
ployed had done nothing to put down the slave trade,
but that was contradicted by the evidence of all those
who had been on the coast. There was one thousand
miles of coast upon which the slave trade was almost
done away with, and that of itself showed that the ef-
fect of the squadron had not been altogether unsuccess-
ful. The Honourable and Gallant Gentleman then went
on to contend that the withdrawal of the squadron from
the coast of Africa at the present time would be attended
with the worst consequences, but was so interrupted by
cries for a division that he was but indistinctly heard in
the gallery.
Colonel THOMPSON said there was one point on
which he was anxious to set himself right with the
House—that point was, that free trade had nothing to i
do with this question. His Honourable Friends around
him were in perfect amity with Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site on this occasion in that respect. The principle of
free trade had always consisted in denying the policy
of giving any portion of the community a monopoly,
upon the ground that no class of persons should pos-
sess any peculiar advantage over the community in
general. The measure his Hon. Friend was now advo-
cating was free trade in stolen pocket-handkerchiefs.—
(Laughter.) That the Free-traders had never main-
tained. The argument which had always been seper-
eminently urged against the traffic in slaves was its
immorality, and that it was a crime—and no commercial
question had any bearing upon it whatsoever. He was
afraid there existed a strong desire, a heat and lusting,
as it had been described, on the part of some to see the
sinews and limbs of the African employed in profitable
industry, not throughout the African continent only,
but elsewhere English commerce, of course, taking
its share.—(Hear, hear.) Had they not seen an emi-
nent literary character once an honour to literature de-
claring that the beneficent whip was the only thing for
negroes and Irishmen?—(Laughter.) The principle
now started against all men who had much to lose was
this—that all property of right belonged to him who
could make the ablest use of it. That was the principle
on which the slave trade was now argued for. Let them
see what the argument would come to. It would be
applied at some future time to the whole commercial
interests of England. There was no man so pure who
was not willing to slip in with this most sweeping argu-
ment. Fancy every one denied of ability making the
best possible use of all they possessed—fancy that argu-
ment to be used by the men they met in the street be-
tween that House and Charing-cross. They might de-
pend upon it there was in this question that which deeply
concerned them, and all who stood by honesty, and who
hoped to pass through the world with a good reputa-
tiou. Our ancestors were not so far wrong as some
thought them to be when they imagined that one of the
greatest glories of this country was the stern opposition
it had always made against the carrying on that most
monstrous iniquity, which had so long dishonoured man-
kind.—(Cries
of " Divide.")
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, when
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to address the House amid
loud cries of "Divide, divide," and proceeded to say he
was reluctant the question should go to a division its
which he should vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend
without stating as briefly as he was able some of the
grounds on which he rested his decision. He did not
disguise from himself the serious consequences of that
vote, but in his view of the case the question was not
whether the squadron should or should not be removed
from the coast of Africa, but whether it was not right to
remove those preliminaries which were now a bar to a
further discussion of their engagements, or in other
words the compacts they had entered into on the sub-
ject with foreign countries. The proper spirit of the
motion made by his Hon. Friend was to vindicate that
question, for he would venture to say that matters could
not be more imperfect, or more open to objection, than
their present treaties for keeping a squadron on the coast
of Africa. The motion only referred, in point of fact,
to the treaty with France, by which each country bound
itself to keep 26 cruisers on that coast, for the suppression
of slavery, but after the lapse of a number of years
France changed her mind, and appealed to the Bri-
tish Government to relieve her from her engagements.
The Government acceded, unwisely in his opinion, and
instead of 26 cruisers France only keeps 12 vessels on
the coast to exclude her own subjects from engaging in
the traffic. That was a state of things so preposterous
that he though his Hon. Friend was justified in bringing
forward his motion.—(llear, hear.) He (Mr. Glad-
stone) had investigated the subject with great care, and
against every prepossession of his mind, against which
he was required to struggle and overcome; but he be-
lieved the time was come when some change should be
made. It was not that he thought less of the horrors of
the slave trade, for he believed it by far the blackest
crime that ever tainted Christian or Pagan, and it was
not on that ground, therefore, he should support the
motion of his Hon. Friend. The peculiarities of the
present case were, that those who now condemned it ad-
hered to it as long as they could with a tenacious fidelity;
but from lessons of experience had felt compelled to
change their former opinions. They were told in
1840, by Sir Thomas Buxton, that it was
impossible to put an end to it in consequence
of the great gains connected with the traffic. The
present system was condemned by the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government, it was condemned by the Anti-
Slavery Society, and with respect t 3 merchants, they were
told that the maintenance of legitimate commerce re-
quired this squadron should be kept, but all he could
learn was, that that body in general were opposed to it.
Then as to the naval profession, he believed their gene-

ral opinion was in favour of the maintenance of a
squadron, but the most responsible commanders of sta-
tions were against it. Sir Charles Hotham did not say
that it should be withdrawn unconditionally, but he was
of opinion that no force could suppress it, and that a
substitute for it must he gat, namely, by a treaty with
Brazil, to introduce free labour into that country. He
(Mr. Gladstone) would ask, how would Sir Charles
Hotham vote were he there?—(Hear, heir.) In his
opinion he would vote for his Hon. Friend's motion—
(No, no)—for he was averse to the continuance of the
squadron to suppress slavery, and believed tbat the
treaty he referred to was the only remedy.—(Hear.)
With regard to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
the President of the Board of Trade, he believed it was one
which would have been made any time during the last
ten years, or the next ten years to come.—(A laugh.)
But the question was, were they to make the maintenance
of that squadron on the coast of Africa as one of the in-
stitutions of the country?—(Loud cries*of "Hear, hear.")
fie believed, also, that unfair observations. had been
wade on the Committee that sat on the subject. It made
no report, it was true, because they did not wish to elicit
the opinions of the douse. The Right lion. Gentleman
talked of ferts being purchased on the coast of Africa,
and of one thousand five hundred miles of coast being
clear, but the evidence Charles Hotham was, that
when slavery disappeared in one portion, it appeared in
another; so that it was utterly impossible to suppress it
eltoeether. Well, then, what had the squadron done ?
Had it extinguished the trade, or was it making progress
towards that object?--(Cries of "Question ") That was
the question before the House, and the only one on which
they were called on to decide. If he could, fir his part,
see any progress made by the continuance of the squad-
ron, he would continue it; but it was in vain to look
for it. The squadron, no doubt, way a tax of about ten
pr cent. on the slave trade. Its continuance made it
more expensive; but it did not seriously restrain its
amount. But did it govern the price of slaves
in Brazil ? Was that the case, or was it not ? In
1823, according to ,the entries of purchases of slaves,
entered in the books of an estate, which he had seen,
be found, that while in .1841 a slave was worth 315
wilreas, in 1844 he was worth from 700 to 800, in the
market of Brazil. The squadron became more effective
since 1844, and what was now the price of slaves ? In
1844, 700 or 800 milreas were paid, but in 1837 the price
was reduced to less than one-half and in 1843 to 350.
That, be it recollected, was owing t a larger supply.—
(Hear.) Now, let them look at the returns ma le by
the Foreign-office with regard to the complaints of
their cruizers. In 1810 these captures amounted to
six per cent, of the entire 'number ; in 1841, 13 per
cent. ; in 1842, 13 per cent. ; in 1843, five per cent. ;
in 1841, nine per cent. ; in 1845, 10 per cent. ; in
1546, four per cent. ; and in 1847, eight per cent.
Therefore, in those papers, there was evidence of no
progress, but a retrogression, and while the country was
improving the squadron at a vast cost, the slavers had
been at work likewise, and a larger proportion passed
through their hands during the last few years than for
any previous period. He did not object to the
experiment made, but he believed it was not the
ordination of Providence that ono nation should
regulate the morals of another. It was not right to
depart from that rule, for they were in constant risk of
quarrelling will other powers; and had totally failed in
effecting their object. The Noble Lord the Foreign Se-
cretery was now in office nearly twenty yearr, and, no
doubt, no man could have done more than he did to ad-
vance the cause of humanity; he entered in 1835 into
a treaty with Spain; in 1859 they got what was termed
the equipment clause ; in 1840 they were enabled to
capture slavers south of the line, and treaties had been
entered into with France and America, but all had failed
even to lessen slavery. These points had been nomi-
nally gained, but where were they ?—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") They had positively fallen back from
the position which they held some years ago. Then
it was suggested that pensions aheuld be given to the
chiefs, so as to make up for their interests in capturing
slives ; but it should be recollected that the burdens on
the people of England were already most serious.—
(Hear.) He was not in the main about to find fault
with the expense of 700,000/., but he was convinced that
the continuance of the squadron did not diminish, but
rather increased, human wretchedness on the coast of
Africa.—(Cheers.) The miseries of men were often
promoted by those who sought to relieve them, and
what had already happened ought not to prevent them
from acting according to the circumstances of the times
in which they lived. Ho regretted much that he had not
the work of Sir Thomas Buxton with him, but it was
well known that while the mortality in the middle pas-
sage, during the regulation of the British slave trade
many years ago, was stated by Mr. Jenkinson to be three
per cent., it increased in the time of Mr. Wilberforce to
10 per cent.; it increased to 24 per cent.; and was, pre-
vious to 1840, 33 per cent. During the former period the
average number of slaves was three slaves to every two
tons; in 1847 and 1848 it increased nearly eight to two
tons. Now, under such circumstances, there must be a
mortality of a most dreadful description, and accordingly
the increase had been over 10 per cent. What did that
mean? Why this, that between 8,000 and 9,000 slaves
were sacrificed on the middle passage, while they only
liberated, at the highest point, some 5,000 or 6,000, thus
increasing the mass of human suffering, instead of re-
lieving it. He recollected that when an argument was
some time since advanced, that piracy was as Iniquitous
as the slave trade, that the reply of the Noble Lord
was—as it was not looked at so by other nations, it
did not become the British Government to be the
first to carry such a measure into effect. He also
thought there ought to be a right belief among all
nations of our sincerity of performing whatever we pro-
pose to them, but ho feared that such a belief did not
exist. When he heard allusions made by the Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), of the assist-
ance and sympathy evinced by French and American
officers towards our fl he was forced to ask, was there
any grounds for an inference that that sympathy was
directed towards our Government ? He should say no,
and he believed such was the general opinion cf the
House and of the country. And he was borne out in
his opinion by the evidence of Sir Charles Hotham—
(Hear, hear)—who states that an American officer, who
had assisted our men when in an engagement in a slave
ship, had been tried by his country, and subjected to a
heavy mulct, and there never afterwards was known one
American officer to imitate his example. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the general belief of all
nations of the insincerity of the British Government, on
the occasion of the passing of the sugar Duties Act, and
said, that as they had not acted up to their professed
and understood intention, and should therefore, in
justice, repeal that Act. He should next allude to the
opinions of the great weight of naval officers, in
which he fully concurred, namely, that our
squadron should be doubled on the coast of Africa,
though Sir Charles Hotham thinks that even such an
augmentation would never be sufficient to suppress that
iniquitous trade, and also that it could be better effected
by steam-vessels, as sailing-vessels cannot watch more
than forty miles of the coast, when steam-vessels could,
by their expeditious sailing, much more easily put the
slave trade down. Next it would be necessary to obtain
the right of search and of mopping,
for many of the
ships of Brazil and Cuba frequently hoisted the Sar-
dinian and Portuguese flag, and thus carried on their
iniquitous trade, without the interruption of our squad-
ron. There were different opinions as to the mode by
which a stop could be put to it, some thought by punish-
ing the whole crew, others by the death of the captain,
and others by three of the chief men; others by trans-
portation or imprisonment; but, he would ask, bad
that House any means or authority by which it
could interfere with ships of another nation? He
answered, No," and thought that such opinions
were merely chimerical. And, should engagements
be entered into for this object, he asked of what
use were they, when Spain and Brazil violate on the
next day the treaties they entered into the day before?
It had been asserted that the treaties entered into in the
year 1830 were still extant, and that the emancipation of
the slaves taken since that period could be demanded ;
but, he would ask, was such a demand ever made ? Did
Lord Aberdeen, when in that country, and cognizant of
such a fact, make such a demand ? No • and it was,
therefore, useless to speak of the existence Of those slave
treaties, for, feeble as Brazil is,
it is well known that it
would not be judicious or wise to go to war with her.
Again, he looked upon the building of martello towers,
and the entering into treaties with black chiefs, as a mere
means of blinding the people of this country. He cer-
tainly should say that, while he found fault with the
present system he would not take on himself to point
out any particular system for the suppression of this
trade. He apprehended that the British Government
would use every exertion for the suppression of
the slave trade ; but he should at the same time
say, that full justice had not been done to Cuba
by the allusion of his Houourable Friend (Mr. Cardwell),
for he could not account for the magic power by which
our ships seized no ships but those of Cuba, and that on
the African coast. He considered that those slave ships
might, for aught he knew, belong to Brazil as well as to
Cuba. On the whole, he should say that he did not
believe that our squadrons tended in any way to suppress
this trade, but that, on the contrary, Brazil looked with
an eye of, national jealousy on such interference; and
he would appeal to the sense of the House whether the
jealousy of England would not be roused to the highest
pitch of indignation if, sixty years ago, when we carried
on the slave trade, any foreign ship would interfere with
us? He thought it a visionary idea to think of putting
down the slave trade by the combination of the English
and French, He hoped, and " his wish was the father
of his thought," that Brazil would in time put down this
system, and he augured this from the knowledge that
there was a very influential and most numerous anti-sla-
very party in that country. He knew that there was a
timo when many of that country required the assistance
of the British Government for the suppression of this
iniquitous trade, and that would be much more efficient
than the energy of the people. the liberality of public
money, or the valour of our officers.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—I own, Sir, that lam more
anxious than I ever remember that this House, when it
sense -
comes to a division upon this subject, shall have a due
of its importance. In importance it is quite i
possible for any one to exaggerate, or even to state
merely in its full extent. But to give some definite idea
of it, let me state to the House that at the beginning of
this century England, in all her colonies, carried on and
permitted the slave trade—that the other powers of Eu-
rope who bed colonies likewise sanctioned slavery, and
wherever and whenever they could carry on the slave
trade they likewise permitted and sanctioned it. In the
course of the time that has elapsed from the beginning
of the present century, we have seen the Parliament of
England abolish the slave trade. We have seen England,
in the treaty of Paris, make stipulations with all the na-
tions of Europe declaring their condemnation of the slave
trade—we have seen slavery itself abolished by an Act
of the English Parliament—we have seen the slave trade
abolished practically, effectually, and entirely, both by
France and the United States—and we have seen
slavery itself lately abolished by France and by

Denmark.—(Hear, hear.) Let mo add to this-
that in Africa, where the strongholds of the slave trade
were erected, we have seen that criminal traffic put an
end to, and the peaceful arts, and industry, and trade,
flourishing by those who were the accomplices of this
horrible traffic. I should be sorry to see the end of the
triumphs of humanity which I have thus shortly traced,
that we should be asked to begin the course of another
half century by retracing our steps—(Cheers)—by going
back from all that has hitherto been done, by proclaim-
ing to the world by this first step that we no longer will
take those measures against the slave trade which we
have hitherto taken, and that we have no substitutes to
put in their place, and thereby spreading discourage-
ment in every part of the world among those, who, ad-
miring our example, feeling the truth of those Christian
maxims we have professed, and wishing practically to
act in the same manner, have been endeavouring each in
their own country to spread the same maxims and to
abolish this horrible crime.—(lfear.) To speak only of
that country to which the. Right Hon. Gentleman last
alluded—namely, Brazil, he has stated that my Noble
Friend near me gave evidence that there was a party in
Brazil springing up hostile to the slave trade. Since my
Noble Friend gave that evidence we have had fat ?r accounts
from Brazil, and these later accounts, I am sorry to say,
represent that the party is so utterly extinct, their lan-
guage being, that they fear England is about to cease
from her efforts; and if England ceases to take the lead
in this grand work, it will be a hopeless task for them
to attempt to raise their hands against this iniquity.
Now, in the beginning of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
speech, he gave, I think, a not very correct account of the
object and effect of this measure. He stated that it was
necessary, as a first step in the matter, to consider what
office we, were hereafter to do to relieve ourselves from
the obligation of the treaty with France. Nov, if we re-
lieve ourselves from our obligations with France as well
as America, every gentleman will remember that that
testy, more from the repugnance felt by Fiance, and in
consequence of the objections made in the French
popular assembly to allowing the right of search to
the English cruisers, and as a substitute for filet right
of search the French Government agreed to keep
cruisers of their own on the coast of Africa to pre-
vent the French flag being desecrated by that trade.
By the same treaty they gave the right of search,
although not what is technically called the right of
searcb. And well, although the number of vessels has
been diminished, most faithfally had that treaty been
observed by France, but I will not pretend to say that
either France, or the United States, or any country in
the world has the same feeling that we have, not only
.) professed, but sincerely entertain. No doubt,
if you ask France to be relieved of the obligation you
will be relieved.—(Hear, hear.) But, what then, will
be your situatieD? Will you be free to act as you think
proper? When you are once relieved from this, every
slaver may hoist the French flag. You cannot, accord-
ing to your stipulations with France, presume to search
those vessels whether they are pirates or bona fide the
national vessels of France. The flags of France and tho
United States will then be used to cover the save trade,
and Great Britain having renounced those treaties, will
have no means to prevent its being carried on; there-
fore, it is not merely the giving ourselves the power of
acting as we think fit, because it would fallow as the
very first step that the flags of France and the United
States would be used to cover the slave trade. But it
was not worth tke while of the Right Hon. Gentleman
to put forward this excuse, because the Hon. Gentleman
who brought forward the motion, and the Hon. Gentle-
man who tollowed him, do not disguise that, although
this is a preliminary modem, their object is to re-
store the slave trade. Sir, it is that motion that I re-
sist—it is that I ask the House not to sanction, and
in asking that I do not prevent any consideration
of any substitute which may appear to the Government
or to Hon. Members to secure a better suppression of
the slave trade. But what Ido denounce, and what I
ask the House not to consent to is, simply a reversal of
all our policy—that you will not take the means to put
down the stave trade by a marine force and that you
will take no other means. The Right Hon. Gentleman
referred to the language used by the Government; but
whether that language was too strong or not, the object
we had in view was to call upon the House and the
country not to relinquish the means of suppressing it,
but to induce the Parliament to sanction additional
means. There is all the difference in the world between
using an argument of this kind—between saying you
must give up the task, and saying the means are not suf-
ficient. We heard the speech of an Hon. Gentleman on
the subject of education a few nights ago. The Hon.
Gentleman spoke of the increase of crime, of the number
of criminals, pointed out the inefficiency of the means
of repression, police, courts of criminal justice, and
gaols, and said it was necessary to reinforce these
means of repression by means of education as
a means of preventing and checking crime.
The Honourable Gentleman did not mean to
say that the means were useless—he did not say
that crime was going on in spite of police, gaols, and
criminal courts, and therefore that wo are to abolish
these things. That is just the difference in the argu-
ment. He said our means of repressing crime were not
sufficient—take the means of education. Now, I said in
1839, our means are not sufficient; let us endeavour by
an expedition to civilize Africa, to obtain additional
means of cutting off the evil at its very roots. The
Right Hon. Gentleman spoke of means, which made
him think that the plan of repression at present in force
is not sufficient. In that respect I think the Right Lion.
Gentleman has made a statement which. if I gu through
it card' illy, would hardly be justified by the documents
before the House. Sir, I have no reason to think that if
we were set free, and that the trade was left to itself, the
Brazilian Government would be able so to regulate the
middle passage as to prevent these horrors. If we look
at the evidence that has been laid bcfire the House with
regard to the probable effects of this change, we have
very little hopes that it will be satisfactory. One of the
grounds on which the motion has been advocated is that
of humanity—namely, that the slave squadron aggravates
the evils of the passage. Sir Charles Hotham, whose opi-
nion is looked to with great respect, says directly the
reverse. He says, if the trade is free small capitalists
will enter into it, and they will not provide the neces-
sary means of accommodation, and therefore the horrors
of the trade will be necessarily increased. Captain
Matson 11:C4 the very same argument. So much for the
state of the slave trade in Brazil—the natural conse-
quence of the exceeding cheapness of slaves. The witness
went on to say that when "a smaller and a worse class
of vessels for the slave trade was used the passage was
longer. Formerly the vessels had three decks—the
slaves were crowded in the hold, and the air was only
admitted by the centre opening. Now, though the ves-
sels were equally crowded, there was only one deck."
So that the opinions of Sir Charles Hotham and Captain
Matson were in direct contradiction of the grounds of
the motion, that the decrease is the mortality of the
slaves on the passage would be greater if we set the
trade in slaves free than under the present system.—
(Hear.) Another argument was the economy or saving
in the expense. But, Sir, I think the Hon. Members
who have produced this argument have failed in it
completely. The Honourable Member who introduced
the motion said the cost was about 700,0001. or it might
be nearer 800,0001. Now if a change were
to be made. Sir C. Hotham says we must still
keep 10 or 12 vessels on the coast—we now keep
26; so the expense would be about half of the present
expense, as nearly half of the number of vessels would
be required. The Right Honourable Gentleman said
he would not give up our whole means of repressing the
slave trade ; for if we found Portugal and Spain willing
to suppress the slave trade, we should, if required, be
ready to aid them. How are we to aid
them? By our mere countenance and concurrence?
That would be of very little use ; but if we
gave assistance by our marines or our soldiers we must
incur expense—the very object which this motion pro-
fesses to put an end to. It would be impossible to be-
lieve either that you would diminish the sufferings of the
passage, or much diminish the present expenditure, un-
less you abandoned the African coast altogether, and
gave up the protection of your commerce—a proceeding
which, in all other parts of the world, you think
to
be necessary. That, lam persuaded, you never will
do ; for if there is any commerce in the world that
requires the protection of the British naval force it
is the commerce that has sprung up on the
coast of Africa, where the slave trade once ex-
isted, and where it cannot thrive unless it receives
the protection of barracoons. Sir C. Hotham
says
if the squadron wore withdrawn, the lives of British
subjects would not be safe. Passion and revenge
would be exhibited in consequence of the steps we had
previously taken to suppress the slave trade, and he ad-
mits that great suffering and mischief must be the result.
So, therefore, it was absolutely necessary to keep up
some force on the coast for the protection of life and
commerce. If, then, the main reasons for the present
motion have been proved to fail, I ask the House to
consider what the evils would be if the motion were
adopted. I will state the opinion of Sir C. Hotham as
an authority to be relied on. He says—" If you with •
draw the naval force without any substitute, such a pro-
ceeding would not redound to the honour and dignity
of the country. I should regret if it werewithdrawn
and nothing substituted in its place." Sir C. Hothammay be right or wrong—but I say it is a fair question to
place before Parliament. You may substitute for the
present system another system, more efficacious in finally
extinguishing the slave trade—but that is a totally differ-
ent question to the question before the House, namely,
whether we shall destroy the present means of
checking the slave trade without substituting
anything in its place.—(Hear, hear.) The first
objection, then, is that it would be highly in-
jurious to the honour of the country. In the next place,
I think it would be impossible, without a greater
force than we now keep up, to preserve from the slave
trade those parts of Africa which we have wrested from
the slave dealers. In those parts where commerce is
now established attempts would be made—violently
made—to extend it to those places where it has been
destroyed.—(llear, hear.) And seeing the large profits
that are to be gained by the slave trade, many African
chiefs who have renounced that trade, seeing the indif-
ference of England on the subject, would again revive
the trade, and you would have to protect those places at
a considerable expense. The next objection if, that an
unrestricted slave trade will destroy the civilization of
Africa—it would destroy all hope of introducing civili-
zation anti Christianity; for with the slave trade I say
it will be impossible to accomplish any such objects.—
(Hear, hear.) In the next place, consider what effect an
immense'importation of slaves into the Brazils would
have. How large the importation might be may be es-
timated from what Lord Howden states, that slaves
costing 5,000/. in Africa would sell for 20,0001. in the
Brazils, being a profit of 500 per cent. on the original
value. If there are such gains to be made, it is impos-
sible not to see that a number of small capitalists would
enter into this trade and continue until they reduced
the profits to the ordinary profits of trade, and that by
this means an immense number of slaves would be im-
ported into the Brazils. And what would be the effect
on the Brazils? There you find vast tracts of unculti-
vated land, fit for sugar; in Trinidad especially some of

the richest parts are uncultivated; those parts would
immediately be cultivated for the purpose of producing
sugar. Immense suffering would follow on this. The
Hon. Member said he would put the question on this
basis, would the mass of human misery be increased or
diminished by the adoption of the motion? I say, no
doubt the result must be that the mass of human misery
would be immensely increased in Africa, and also in the
Brazils, by the introduction of a larger number of slaves
into the Brazils. What is the speculation going on at
this moment in the Brazils? It is that, seeing a Com-
mittee has sat on this question, and that the opinion of
the Committee leaned to the abandonment of all further
efforts t 3 suppress the slave trade, they believe there is a
probability that they soon will be in a condition to cul-
tivate sugar so cheaply that no country in the world will
be able to furnish sugar to this country except the Brazils.
It is the opinion of all who are asked on the subject,
that an immense importation of slaves into Brazil would
produce the certain result of an immense increase in the
production of sugar. This brings us to another question,
which the Right Honsurable Gentleman rightly touched
upon; for though connected with the question of hu-
manity, it is also connected with our own interests—l
mean the effect which it would have on the West
ladies, if this increased competition occurred. I am not
row going to argue the question of the sugar duties of
1845. I will admit, by the abolition of slavery in 1833,
and the abolition of the prohibitory duty of 1842, that
we did place the West India Islands at great disadvan-
tege.—(llcar.) I am, however, happy to see the opinion
stated on both occasions borne out—that they would be
able to bear those shocks, and to found their sugar culti-
vation on a new and a better basis. I have not been
entirely disappointed; ou the contrary, I observe the
produce of sugar in Jamaica, Guiana, and other islands,
in 1847 and 1848, is greater than in 1845 and 1846, and
the pro-Ince of 1849, I believe, is greater than of 1848.
It that is the case, it shows that the Africans in the
West ladle Islands are induced to labour for less wages,
and that successful industry iscarried on in the islands at
this moment. But, after the blows—l admit they were
blows—the West Indies have sustained, they would be
in the utmost danger if any great advantage was given
to Brazil by the admission of a great number of slaves;
and if the additional produce were brought against th
produce of our own islands—(Fiear)--I think that would
be more than the West India Islands would be able to
bear—they could not stand this competition. That of
itself would be a great misfortune, nut only as regards
our own interest, but it would be a misfortune as regards
the question of :lave labour.—(bear, hear.) These,
then, are three conclusive reasons against the motion
proposed to the House. In the first place, there would
be the increased activity of the slave trade; in the se-
cond the destruction of the trade on the coast of Africa;
and, third, the expensive and ruinous competition of
slave labour with free labour of the West India Islands.
But the Right Honourab:e Gentleman asks what it is we
would propose to do in going on with the present system,
and the Right Hon. Gentleman says the speech of my
Right Hon. Friend would do for any other time and
occasion. I contend that, by the existing system, we
have made progress on the coast of Africa towards the
destruction of the slave trade. That the slave trade
has not been utterly suppressed by such means I readily
admit; but the greater the progress we make in civilising
Africa, the greeter the area from which the slave trade
is excluded. We have thereby a less evil to cope with,
and the more manageable the evil becomes. Another
argument is, that we have not sufficient means at com-
mand. Tar Committee object to force; they object to
the destruction of the barraccone and the forced libera-
tion of the slaves. These means, they say, are not to
be thought of as a remedy for the present evil. I think,
Sir, the destruction of the barracoone, and the occu-
pation of forts on the coast of Africa, are the principal
means of suppressing the slave trade. All the evidence
of the dispatches we received prove that such is the case,
and I expect the utmost advantage from those means.
The Hon. Gentleman has alluded to the opinion of other
nations with respect to our policy in relation to the slave
trade. I have stated that great advantages were
obtained at the beginning, and my opinion is if you
were to address the different powers of Europe, you
would find their opinion more enlightened on the subject
than when we began, in 1515 to enforce our own
opinions; we have seen other powers cheerfully co-
operate with us in suppressing the slave trade—France
and the United States of America have suppressed the
slave trade, and, were those great powers to join with us
in using not unfriendly—but firm language to Spain and
the Brazils, I am persuaded the happiest effects would he
produced on these Goveruments. That they would
despise the warning I am not ready to believe. If
they took no measures for the repression of the slave
trade, then you would have again to consider well the
question—what progress you have trade—whether the
slave trade would be more repressed in the next year
than in the present? What are the means that remain?
That there are means I think no one will deny.
That they aro means to be at once condemned none but
the Members that composed the majority of the Com-
mittee would decide; for that Committee having been
appointed on those terms—to consider the best means to
adopt for the extinction of the slave trade, seemed to
have no other thought than how to condemn and repro-
bate every means by which the slave trade could be ex-
tinguished, and to leave alive the only means by which
it could be nourished and increased. —(Hear, hear.) But
as to the last answer to the question, what cau we do for
the repression of the slave trade? Sir, I for one will
not despond. I believe that despondency in a great
cause is of itself a main cause of failure.—(Bear,
hear.) I can imagine a man saying in 1814
that for three centuries the Algerines had car•
ried on their plans of plunder, piracy, robbery,
and captivity of the Christians, and having lasted
for three centuries, no one would be wild, Utopian, or
insane enough to expect their termination; and yet the
very next year saw a termination of this practice of three
centuries and the system of carrying Christians into cap-
tivity put an end to and abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Sir,
I believe if this cause is good—it it has enlisted gradually
the nations of the world in its favour—if there remain
only Spain, in one of her colonies, and the empire of
Brazil still carrying on this trade, I believe that the
cause is anything but hopeless.—(Hear.) I believe that
nothing would destroy is but the want of that moral
courage which the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite dis-
played—l believe that nothing but being faint-hearted on
that subject, and saying that we are unequal to cope
with this evil, will finally give it a permanent sway and
supremacy.—(Hear, hear.) But there are other motives
which may influence this House in coming to
a decision upon this question. We have been blessed
with great mercies during the past year. We have
more than once had to thank Almighty God for the dis-
pensation of those mercies. I own, Sir, it appears to
me that if we aro now to say that the trade in man shall
be unlimited, and the cruel traffic against which England
for nearly fifty years has been working, with the efforts
of her greatest itatesatee, and the hands of her test and
bravest sailors, is now to be allowed to go free and un-
controlled, I believe that we shall no longer have a right
to expect these mercies. I believe that in the high, the
Christian, and moral character of the nation is to be
found the main source and secret of her strength. I
think that if this night you were to direct your Foreign
Minister to go with his dastardly message to France—if
we give up this holy work of mercy—if we are no longer
permitted to take a lead in the clsampionship against the
curse and crime of slavery, we can no longer venture to
expect those blessings which, of God's providence, we
enjoy.—(Cheers.)
Lord R. GROSVENOR wished to state the reason
for the painful vote which he intended to give. During
the twenty-eight years he had the honour of a seat in
that House, it was his good fortune never, until that day,
to differ on any essential point of policy from his Noble
Friend below him. His reason for voting for the pre-
sent motion was this—that if it were carried, it would
have the effect of preventing this country from continu-
ing to attempt the moral government of the world on
principles which, according to his judgment and under-
standing, were condemned by the moral Governor of the
Universe in every page of his works.
Mr. HUTT, in reply, said that it ought not to be
taken for granted that he bad no substitute to propose,
because he had not offered one on that occasion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... ... 154
Against it . . ... 232
Majority acainat the motion ... —7B
INTRAMURAL INTERMENTS.
Lord DUDLEY STUART moved an address for a
return, stating, for each of the last ten years, the number
of interments that have taken place in each cathedral,
church, chapel, churchyard, chapelyard, cemetery, or
other place of interment within fifteen miles of St. Paul's
Cathedral; distinguishing (if practicable) whether made
in vaults or otherwise.
After a brief discussion, the motion was negatived on
a division.