The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-26 00:00:00

_ _________.
kr t., NATIONAL MONUMENTS..
the ' 'alE Saida had given eetice of a motion oln.
dtess(lotr,estion th tSepc,lcer leave the chair, for an au
edopto her Majesty, praying that
.er •
St. 'Paul's
ted •'' te ensure the üblic free edmission to ht be
tuoi.titylotsf.!l°?crti.ents, and he wished to takethanisneospspiooiri llery.eahndteg tho House, that
.c.n the , Ptillie"Je'Y he had presented a petition anreedmteon at
btioste‘ll,l:ol"ing, and signed by 600 artists and
''lti'' (-- in
seie?ce, praying for free admissioAnietmo
hSetr.
fort,,B'
~ Ja that eceasiou the Noble Lord the
Home
heper•Ot'°°, who was at the time Secretary for the _
_a. ieev ,111'nt, who
a letter, by direction of her M
balite'
01°f the Heart and Chapter of St. Paul's, and to the
er, recorn-
temin l'ellinetoe, Governor of the low
idti, ,g that gretter facilities should be} give'n for the
I had no he-
4,4ti'oiloti of the public to those nine"'
oeletelellf? saying that what had beenNdhoelnee'Linorcdonhsned-.
beeo ° the recommendation of the 0
ent to
the PtAuctive of much benefit and limb 14.'.°P)e of the meteepelis.—(fleur, heaprr.e)vemColonel
That 4' the head of the police, had stted u.t. evnirdoewnees 148e,01
,eiceable and orderly manner in which. °
iteciciltilliter4tionginegther of la'e years was to be attributed
t 0,,, twt,°il to which tilt.), had und.ergone by a free
public places and builitg.,
rowd to
jeet - police officers would do more In a c few
and that
-4e the •
id have done a
NI peace, than twenty wou .
With th!2' His own opinion was in entiFeconcurrence
He had
,Witched ?f Colonel Rowan on the subject.
at
ha,' With considerable interest the thousands whom
Btu,' 3ceo at Hampton Curt, and had besntegrattiefimed. 414 Way Iti which they enjoyed sad conducomdm h
ended
ttitepe The Cenernittee having strongly
totatrvrfY facility should be given throughoutree the whole
fuel er the admisiion of the people to public,,insti-
was sorry to find
tteattle:)t hethat in some
ocma
San,
~, ePposition had been male to the rec
tre,keveral cathedrals ha I been opened.
with Westminster was
Ott 01.4 advaetage to the public. West ms
' es
h thedtha
e-
et fret them, and the present Dean deservedm_itrbneethtahieirkes
N 89 man for the steps he Lad tak. en. T
hat h„ Tall fse still demanded for visits to he chapels,
entailed
bee" suctild not Object to that, as such visits
?tOl'selPeuse• The contrast between Westminsteran.od,Stt..
; .441' l'as Most disgraceful. If the people went. t °
'41448 "Itring service the moment it was over they were ho ,c,,°:?t, and if' they went at a time there
an Ilti4;:4ee, they were required to pay Ilea of•°tl,ll*--(Hear.) Considering that the graesater per-
,,'"e Public 4 monuments in St. Paul's had been
het;
4°la eV, it was disgraceful. that the puedecewitceeodsulaidtt
tot rile: there without Paying money.—(Hear.)
1444 Without that that the people could not see Nelson's
All that
thoeetitth°?t Paying to see it?—(Heart hear.) totle st° narrow a spirit that he hoped the system
l'r°Pose cease in all our cathedrals. If ever he
should
certsitti,!hkeaPpeintment of another Committee, lio to " (ie on this subject; but he trusted there would
fW,„h;ieli thL"d of
another Committee.
.The. .
experiencen
further
-mile °Y (lad had warranted them in
the lire!: Lord Stanley, who was one of gthiveitrgustees of
toiseol'lsh Aluseuna, at first was opposed to the free ad-
bothll,,°f the public, because he thought injurynewndoounldr totteCetult, but much to his credit he had the
141 ,e 2, after the relaxation had been made, thuastenuomloss
on
the 411:)°0 persons had passed through the
M to the
,k,t4Otiat4Y, Monday and that without damageig.tiesl. h°' sixpenCe being done to any one
hould
,„•41teet.-pear) He was anxious that Government
Parties -•Y opp wh ortunity of urging the question
.on.s those
gl, Sir G „,° were still reluctant to concede on.admissi
se _
ths lio:111„.1( agreed in the. general opinion.
ofetdoaite: Member, that it was most desirable that
tati ion should be granted to the public to objects
by th °DI interest. 0 receiving the return moved for
fbroe!l'(,f's'tm J_le,, tuber receiving the return moved for
Stember for Montrose from the present
el'hti sera' aut.e, he stated that he sent the return
ici4, o reci.t eat furnished by the verger, who was the
ed to of the fees, and added that he had endea-
the Ot,'t, hitt'et‘Place the matter cn a more satisfactory foot-
to' Lilt he had been prevented doing
.so. by
-4re exercised by the Ecclesiastical Commission overhd Notivetittek On receiving that communication be a
It,. the aft , .
tiZ'ad h entton of the Ecclesiastical Commission to
ol tltcel
ehrti informed thattiemattheurt
14,,,,55 t,tri
_r...inder their consideration,
being
itlee to
h: a laen from their not.had
dt
dhiahien-
e tot e`:"3' the verger The public had A a prepared agrreideveLlethe
tikt f ling freely 'd
..tt d to St. Paul's, 1 tilorest•eer "tetnunai:ttlioen with the Dean would end in
and he hoped
iYing of that grievance.—(Hear.)
,:I,4li,lll:3itlitsteh?eelii. :wenrinPtPeL SUPPLY.
of Supply, Mr.
444141tfrirxt,herlielu.se of Industry, Dublin.
Lt tied, tlo, u. 1,08 co.mplaine I that this vote had been
tie the Itti. ',withstanding the agreement, at the time
'lt% 10e, that all such grants should remain wa-
d kr ef.,d,s.
.11Zir;a7litlihi,AAT, also said a few words against the re-
t4ttai
ell
..Krant.
hothta iso,,ICELLOR of the EXCHEU r,, IL,
~,- ,-I bear his testimony to the constituentsEßsaoidf
ittlltitl4;ekirentlernen that they had done what they
tO a ease the vote. Ho could not, however, con-
e ttlY increase of it.—Agreed to.
tle°,4l‘.thtiersPene?le Orphan Hospital, Dublin.
ii.`it ts,a3`iouLD objected tanh. vtoittentoionntelixeelgursoivuenldy
Ttleittat. r the support of ins
Ithe e e4Ati
EXCHEQUER said
1 ,!;te had PELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
made for many years and could not
thtitltOtlelw., l made for man
kiolittelly redLa_lt. at once. lie hyo yeedathat it would be
air d, "eot, and that no morep children would be
~Art94.llakkll.T
r ON supported the vote.
444. iii4,.3' ON
from Mr. HUME,
4°4 '-'4„j'IOLDS would not move the rejection of
t to if
'-'° tne-e children were to be admitted.
Theta
NANcE
kt,,, 44
n_ LLOR of the -
vottted. .Isuranee that no more childldEregnUwEoßuledeubled
200' aitreed ,
t°',' 4 f't th
'Ol f.!l t the
l\ Lock Hospital.—Agreed
le,44•ltEty.-4? Lyin.-in Hospital, Dublin.
Ittletkid,; °L.DS'objected to the reduction.i which had
hthade t lest in this and other votes as a violation 1111). 44tlittR which hadbeeri come to at the time of the
1; kr, b
Nted"lNE r )tol,l, to 2,, emarked that the understanding was
)44 bt 8 t ref ears f .the • He trusted the vote
a t.r union.
4s''.ltty arther reduced.
kt%ao ssOLDS thought
Scotland was concerned.
ago he ead voteu
prof"' Iltjm.El of art in Edinburgh.—(Hear.)
0,114,,,,, --he Vote has not yet been taken.
Member had
the'',Cled , "'OLDS—At least the Hon.
When
tts• 'len 0") Date that amount.—(Hear, hear.)
ttell:3 an Gentle at
had sympathy for inanimate pie-
14keet I°l' hill33frie of art, he ought to have somealsoto
theo,iikte tb\
,I,e. Reynolds's) poor living countrywomen
h.ntlei ,I, nrADitai,
he IRhe,t'A.Wl)ol\l said, it had been maintained by
ritht:th,t statesmen at the period of the union,a that
full
Is e!? that measure passed Ireland should
'tt,,littet.cferfigat of the resources of this choauntry, not
tfl'he :tite e,,,
th°llee, but of duty.
Nv 4,,41 °f 1 14 agreed to.
11,;;44,es 1/08i.)iito:1;reabsitinhen voted in aid of the funds
Ai)itti ,:114aereed to for the support the Fever
tsiof,ls4,eue of Recovery, Cork-street, Dublin.
the „ ()• was voted for the hospital for incurables.
!Qoalile pi.
.REGIU NI DONUM.
it Its br,
~,.oPosition that a sum not exceeding.
Itelatld''`aated to the Protestant Dissenting ministers
3. 7,698/.
,sttli;'. Sott' ,
ttett alto) -014-4,1" rose to call the attention of the Com-
ilti• lij 000° of Presbyterian clergyman—the
rev.
hia,Natl, 1, of lonaael, County Tipperary. The .
of to kir'et(parterly stipend had been reghlarol Id
ytoplaser
N;ae 3114 ~;e_1849; but the next instalment,
,%Rtllti,%sizcJda , had been stopped, and no sufficient
.°llk „Ititp thee' The nonourable Member went at some
Nh,worrea details of the case, and referred to a
tt deco betvi),(Mdence which had taken place upon. the.
tk.tdeulitt One", the Rev Gentleman and the authorities
'" '-ht Pr p7„s,.tte• The. Government said he had not
,-,:,'`t'h,„- ~,f c'ti,,„-.Tr,etarn. He attributed the fact of the de-
'4l4' itteco-ti Rev. Xlr. Dill's stipend from that period
ri,i); na4 sity of
a person in the Regium Donum.
elitio 101 hC4eorge \tattle who went by the sou
'h %'-'se -"earl (Ch'. 'ews' bter)—(Laughter) bad
ft kt ntl o!lded f ~tsle em—(Laug
te este, rens his office a considerable defeulter.
totii• oe 0 had been brought before the House on a
tkwrel4,keeeditc'htlehlY),th.e Hon. Member for Athlone (Mr.
) etty ~ad then eget Hon. Baronet the. Secretary for
fled,
eillliltwee elrgyttaien th matter was in the hands of
hat °tie de hemwt they
de oftici hdehGeneurladl
sAtastseemwbhlaytowfolurti 11,11,tt t,, tro
ttt,r. decided
then it it had been brought
'`l4iptikt' tltkrteh4bY'criail Church in Ireland, assembled in
.11,4 thiiin ere certain resolutions had been passed
,4,crett4,tanclL,,ith blr. Dill, regretting that any nes-
,"( It
~.11,toset6 had arisen between himself and the
,litl,"'o4-1 br,"nd expressing a hope that the arre!.rhs
ellt.d I\eThe bond
due to him would
.be forthwit.
. fet„, th
t, Gorr
had been again oC Ing:IUM-
.I4
••`' to e- the
that and Mr. Redington bad
t
,lehlttetilletidedtY tl.iat Wjhen' the rev. gentleman yen
his arrears
toti a
No eertencate to the Castle f of
tdeltakilittiht_rpltiliredkLyr. Dill. considered that the ort.n
thsa:°.• iheetiee Pry him would compromiseudhsddeethlieueldntteu-
a ele fay goner f',eY,terian body, a_resbyterian body
leaded lir oaf N.,_ „..e. Ing of the P
~ virL,tr4,4o4t Ir. iiill a claim, and he regretted that
stet 7ith th
~ahould have incurred the unpopularity,
tiec%°?"l)43,l)::seeil rweheboYhteardianhbodyd- on account of the con
ed and who was influ-
t4till'illtsttlil.l::trsr°onraeirtnelledtivesaoefeheonstilit'ytowards Mr. Di11,.0
It
has of his pro_ gentleman seemed to examine to
e 1,,,.. se 1 _ ihe ,10.,_ e. eedings. Ho would ash_w.h,aet,eh_ad,
fen '-'ase of "Y, what of Mr. Duncan Chi.ai ' In'
((Jiro Y colitl ,Reeat injustice towards Mr. Dill, who.
evail,' his to it, 1,
-aving accorded to the rules laid
tine te tneatett,gregation havin a regular church for
tlttiektc'ive• 13ss,usb'f".re>. there beingg an ahthorised minist.eer
et. c )ternin families be nag resident in tia
et. bpi That4lloteltse had not yet been sifted to the bot-
ch 1. tesde tod liii,,, and he then hoped a just award
4,, . st)lit.t,.._. reverend gentleman.
t %ee "VILLE said it seemed the Honour-
t er, wanted t
ve et 4 oil (Nta.t,,, 0 throw that case altogether upon.
"sa, Le'' for 'ewa) who had been lately a clerk in
t4,le 'Y tlie te dist b •.
th -of th - orre, ri ution of the Regium Donum.
r,itte4,, e Rouse Pesidenee upon that subject on the
k*osor:e had bee anyone could See that everything in
41e1/4tetst4"t• Ann !Ica" h 7 the whole sanction of the
ettriten.titit and dialL(leirY was now making into the
?• lidi Lit ev Pesel of the funds entrusted to that
I°Oli 4 , had noteethlng connected with the affair of
i N 1:1' bet regr,,eieti, d"e by the Government, and he
Ic'\;' eon taken II he
the time of the House should
dow4l,°inellreeililr°°l-•!hpt ti.' such caae• When the Member
I i,'s ?ver e
ail
stag luestion before the House he (Sir
Pee,..1% 41, Y ether pttecl that when Mr. Dill chose t )
',AN ht.lril wouidtryteriau clergyman in Ireland
4 ritill to ''' Md. Re thought the Go-
eXPaCt to be furgilhed Tritil

such information as it deemed important. The provin-
cial synod had recromsnd, d Mr. Dill to comply with the
requisition of Government. There were 483 Fresh) te-:an
clergymen in Ireland, and of these 482 complied with
the Government requisition ; and until Mr. Dill thought
fit to do so also, the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had de-
termined that his arrears should not be paid.
Mr. OSBORNE thought it was a gratifying feature
in that discussion to see the Roman Catholic Member
for Tipperary advocating the cause of the Presbyterian
minister. He could bear testimony to the high worth
and respectability of the rev. gentleman alluded to, than
whom no ono had done more to arsuage religious differ-
ences and promote general Christian harmony.—(Hear.)
There was no doubt about the fact that Mr. Dill's first
stoppage of stipend was owing to the personal animosity
of that Mr. 1). Chisle'em, who twenty years ago La I
absconded from Inverness after a forgery, had then en-
listed in a foot regiment, from which he had been
discharged, but whom they found shortly after snugly
placed in the Castle of Dublin in an office of great trust.
He could bear testimony to the high respetahility of
Mr. Dill, and the disreputable character of Mr. Duncan
Chisle'em, to whose animosity the former originally
owed the withholding of his just stipend. He was rot°.
nished no reward had been offered for the apprehension
of Matthews, But there was another and a more im-
portant question involved in that discussion. How long
were they to continue that grant? How long were ,
they to continue making two Church establishments in
IrelAnd?—(Hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS would move the rejection of that
vote altogether, as he was an advocate for the voluntary
system, and maintained that every religion ought to sup-
port its respective ministers. No man ought to be called
upon to pay the clergyman of a religion to which he did
not belong; but in Ireland 8,000,000 of people were re-
quired to vote no less than 1,000,0001. sterling to the
Protestant Episcopal religion, while not more than about
750,000 were in communion with the English Protestant
Church of Ireland. They ought neither to be called
upon to support a Protestant establishment nor a
Presbyterian one. He appealed to all Dissenters in
that House, in a spirit of justice, fair play, and
honesty, to vote with him for the rejection of that mo-
tion. He believed that were it not for the corrupting
influence of that grant of 37,0001. a year there would
not be a more independent body of men in any country
than the Presbyterian clergymen of Ireland. The
amount of the grant was divided among 500 of those
clergymen; and he opposed its continuance with a view
to dissolve the connexion betweea them and the Govern-
ment. He felt persuaded that if a stop were put to that
allowance they would no longer be spies on the one hand
or dictators on the other.
Mr. ANSTEY supported the grant on the ground
that the Presbyterians of Ireland were themselves
anxious for its continuance.
Mr. SADLEIR said he believed that the abolition of
the grant would bring int) connexion with the Pro-
testants and Roman Catholics of Ireland the Presby te-

rians of that country, whose energies, patriotism, and
political independence was very much paralysed by an
allowance of that description. But he had risen prin-
cipally for the purpose of stating that he thought the
Rev. Mr. Dill was fairly entitled to the allowance which
he had claimed.
Mr. HUME said he wished to remind the Committee
that while it appeared that an average of only 401. was
raised by the 451 Presbyterian congregations in Ireland,
an average of 80/. would be divided among them by
means of that grant. He trusted the House would check
a grant which was going on increasing year by year.
With respect to the case of Mr. Dill, if the necessary
certificate was produced, there was nothing to prevent
the money being at onee paid. In a quarrel of this kind
about the loaves and fishes, if her Majesty's Govern-
ment would take his advice they would abolish the
grant altogether; and then the Presbyterians would soon
find means to support their clergy without any extra-
neous aid.—(Elear.)
Mr. BRIGHT considered the grant was most objec-
tionable. The system was capable of unlimited expan-
sion, for congregations might divide and sub-divide to
any extent, and each division receive the benefit of the
grant on raising a certain sum themselves. After
the system had been so long in operation, perhaps, it
might be considered rather harsh to stop the grant
without the slightest notice. But he thought it might
be placed in process of extinction by an annual
reduction. If the grant should be reduced by the
sum of 5,000/., the result would be that the congrega-

tions which now paid 351. would have to pay 451.; and
the Government grant would in such case be rduced
from 751. to 65/. By proceeding in this manner for a
few years the grant would be gradually extinguished,
and no perceptible increase would be felt in the congre-
gational payment. If the Hon. Member for Dublin
would withdraw his motion, he (Mr. Bright) would pro-
pose that the vote be reduced by 5,000/.—(Hear.)
Mr. REYNOLDS declined taking the advice of the
Hon. Member, but would make him this offer—that if
the Honourable Member would divide with him, and
his motion should be lost, he would then divide with
the Hon. Member on his proposition. He, however,
thought it the better way to take the bull by the horns
at once.—(Laughter.)
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said the Presbyterians claimed
this grant on the ground of being required to pay for
the support of the Established Church. Although he
thought the grant ought to be abolished, yet, consider-
ing that any immediate change might operate prejudi-
cially and harshly in certain cases, he trusted the Hon.
Member for Dublin would accede to the motion of the
Hon. Member for Manchester fur a gradual reduction of
the vote.—(flear, hear.)

The Committee then'divided. The numbers were—
Fer Mr. Bright's amendment ... ... 45
Against it ... 108
Majority ... --63
Mr. REYNOLDS said he would divide the Committee
against the vote.

~. 123
... 27

—The Committee divided.
For the vote ...
Against it ...
Majority ...
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote 6,790/, for charitable allowances charged
on the Concordatum Fund (Ireland),
Mr. REYNOLDS moved tkat the vote be reduced by
the item of 216/, salary and allowances of the minister
and clerk of St. Matthew's Chapel, Ringeend,

The Committee divided.
For the amendment ...
Against it ... •••
Majority .. ..•
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were agreed to without discus-
sion :-
20,700/. for the General Board of Health, Ireland, and
2,3461. for the Central Board of Health, Dublin.
On the vote 13,3521. to defray the expenses of the En-
cumbered Estates Commission, Ireland,
Colonel surnioßr said—l move that the vote be
disallowed,
The CHAIRMAN—Does the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber mean to divide the House upon this vote?
ilonel SIBTHOR I)—Certainly.—(Laughter.)
The gallery was then cleared fur a division, but none
took place, the vote having been agreed to without a
division.

•G • ••• 24

••• ..• 123
••• ••• -99

The following votes were then agreed to:-
15,000/. for navigation is connexion with drainage in
Ireland.

14 763/. for the British ambassador's house at Con-
stantinople.
1,0001. for defraying the expense of the militia and
volunteers in Canada.

3,0001. for repairing the harbour at Lybster.
18,100/. to defray the expense of erecting light-houses
abroad.

30.0001. for defraying the expense of a place as a ge-
neral repository for public records.
8,0001. for the law charges, salaries, allowances, and
expenses of the office of Solicitor to the Treasury.
3,5551. towards defraying the expense of prosecuting
offenders against the laws relating to coin.
7,7001. towards defraying the expenses of sheriffs and
officers of the Court of Excequer.
5,330/. for the Commissioners of the Insolvent Debtors'
Court.
44,324/. for the law expenses of Scotland.
On 33,761/. for criminal prosecutions and other law
charges in Ireland being proposed,
Colonel DUNNE said, as an Irish Member, he felt
himself bound to protest against the treatment to which
his country was subject. These expenses ought to have
been placed on the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. C. LEWIS believed that if the balance was struck
between England and Ireland in respect to criminal
prosecutions, Ireland would be found not to be a loser.
The subject was settled in 1846 in England as to what
proportion should be borne by the rates and by the Con-
solidated Fund; but though no similar arrangement had
been made in Ireland, the half of the expense of the
constabulary was fixed on the Consolidated Fund, and
Ireland would be found, therefore, to have the best of
the bargain.
Colonel DUNNE complained that convicts were kept
in gaol in Ireland after sentence, at the expense of
the county in which the conviction took place, whereas,
properly speaking, they should be supported by the
country.
Mr. 11. HERBERT also complained of the large
number of convicts in the gaols of Ireland. In his own
county there were 550 convicts in the gaol, which was
built to hold only 130. The condition of the gaols in
Ireland was so bad that Government should come for-
forward with some remedy.
Mr. SADLEIR bore testimony to the disgraceful
state of the gaols in Ireland likewise. There was in
the south especially a most frightful mortality in the
workhouses and the prisons arising from their crowded
condition. lle appealed to the Government to relieve
those prisoners in the gaols who were convicted of slight
offences.
Sir GEORGE GREY said there had been a suddcz
and enormous increase in the number of convicts for
transportation in Ireland within the last two years.
The Government had, however, made such arrange-
ments as would relieve the rates from their mainte-
nance until they were sent off. They had provided
accommodation for 3,500 on Spike ;Island, and else-
where. Ile (Sir George Grey) considered that there
was much reformation needed in the county prisons in

Ireland.
Mr. SADLEIR said, though the Government had
certainly made exertions in the matter, they had not
made them equal to the exigency.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote, 15,500/. to complete the sum necessary
to defray the expense of the metropolitan police force of
Dublin, was agreed to without discussion.
On the vote of 90,0001., to complete the sum necessary,
to defray certain charges for criminal prosecutions, for-
merly paid out of the county rates,
Mr. V. SMITH wished to know whether any steps
had been taken to promulgate a uniform scale of fees fur
county prosecutions?
Sir G. GREY said he had obtained information from
all the counties and boroughs of England, with regard
to the mg, pf expense§ ciwged fin prooclitigesp*with