The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-25 00:00:00

THE SUN,

postpone the vote till some explanatory plan was on the
table.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER recol-
lected talking with Lord Lincoln on the subject of his
plan, but thought that the expenditure necessary to ob-
tain the ground would be a formidable objection to it.
But with regard to the arch, it must go.—(A laugh.)
He agreed that a scheme of this sort should be well con-
sidered, and was perfectly ready to adopt the sug-
gestion of the Right Honourable Gentleman to postpone
the vote.—(Hear.)
Vote accordingly postponed.
3,1294 to defray the expense of providing temporary
accommodation for the Houses of Parliament.
Mr. OSBORNE called the attention of the Committee
to the questions connected with this vote. He wished
to know who was responsible for the expenditure of the
money for the new Houses? He was sorry to see around
him so beggarly an account of financial reformers, when
a vote of this kind was to be discussed. In 1837 a Com-
mittee of the two Houses sanctioned the estimate given
in by Mr. Barry of 707,104L—(Hear, hear.) But there
had been already spent 2,045,9231.—(Hear, hear.)
In the report of the Committee it was stated that
this estimate of Mr. Barry was not to be considered as
having their sanction. In feet it was no estimate at all.
There were included in it a sum of 497,0001. for furni-
ture and decorations. The useful portions of the build-
ing ought to be completed in the first instance. Mr.
Barry had promised that the building would be com-
pleted in six years. It was now sixteen years since it
was boguu, and it was not yet finished. In 1837 Lord
Duncannon stated that the expenses of the building
would act exceed 124,000/. ',Let the House compare that
with the estimate sanctioned by the Commission in 1849.
He wished to know who was the party responsible for
spending the money? The Hon. Member for Lancaster
was merely a sort of scapegoat in the matter, and had
no control or responsibility. There was little or no
control over the architect. In 1844 Mr. Barry stated to
the Committee that the Woods and Forests had never
asked for a plan, and that ho could not tell what the
ultimate cost of the whole building would be. Unless
the House interfered, there was no saying what the ex-
pense would amount to. In 1848, the Noble Lord at the
bead of the Government, speaking on this question, said
that he hoped the estimate would not be excessive; but
as to being responsible for an architect, that was out of
the question.
Lord J. RUSSELL--That is not a correct statement.
Mr. OSBORNE—It was takea from Hansard. In
1844 the Lords' Committee reported that Mr. Barry had
departed from the original plan, and had made altera-
tions to it without any authority, and they called the
attention of the House to the subject. With regard to
one branch of the expenditure, it appeared that the Com-
mittee of 1841 estimated the expense of warming and
ventilating the House of Commons at 86,0001. It had
already cost--not including the nine boilers-124,0001.
—(Hear, hear.) He believed it was not competent for
him to move in Committee the resolutions he had,placed
on the votes, but he should certainly move that the vote
be negatived unless a correct estimate of the furnishings
be supplied. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would be able to give them an assurance that the
House would soon be finished—that no commissioners
of fine arts would be allowed to increase the expenditure
or delay the works, and that they would be told whether
those extraordinary shelves lately introduced into the
House of Commons were intended for galleries, or
merely receptacles for the journals of the House.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said he did not wish to in-
terpose between the Chancellor of the Exchequer and
any statement he might have to make, if that was not a
regular time for him to introduce the motion which ho
had on the paper.
Mr. BERNAL (Chairman) said the vote before them
was a sum of 3,1291. for the temporary accommodation of
the Commons.
Mr. OSBORNE said he expected some explanation on
the question.
Captain BOLDEFtO complained that every expense
connected with the House of Commons had not been put
under one head, as it ought to have been.
The vote was then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN next put the question that a sum
not exceeding 154,6601. should be granted to her Majesty
for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the works
at the new Houses of Parliament for the year ending
the 31st of March, 1851.
The CHANCELLOR if the EXCHEQUER had no
wish to avoid giving explanations; but, on the contrary,
was glad the Hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Os-
borne) had afforded him the opportunity of making them.
The Hon. Gentleman said that after the old Houses of
Parliament were destroyed, six years was the time which
they were told it would take to replace them; but the
House teaust remember that the reason why the works
had not proceeded at so rapid a rate was, because the
adequate means had never been voted for the purpose. A
commission existed for superintending the arrangements '
of the new Houses, and an adequate control was given
over the expenditure, but the House must recollect that,
after all, the House of Commons itself was mainly re-
sponsible for the great expenditure that had been in-
curred,
because it was not the Government of the day,
but a Committee of the two Houses of Parliament, which
had selected the architect and decided on the design
that should be adopted and on the whole framework if
the new buildings. The power of the Government to
interfere in the matter was overruled by the
masters of the Government in such cases—the
House of Commons. The Honourable Gentleman corn-
pleined that a large sum of the excessive expenditure
was incurred on the responsibility of the architect him-
self. Now that was not the fact. He had seen Mr.
Barry only that day. and was informed by him that, to
the bass cf his belief, on that part of the works included
wilVa his original estimate of 707,0001., there had been
no excess ef expenditure at all. A considerable number
of alterations and additions had been made that were not
included within that estimate, and in 1344 a Committee
of this House sat on the subject, and investigated the
expenditure. That Committee imputed no blame to Mr.
Berry, but expressed its belief that all the alterations
made conduced to the convenience and general effect of
the building; and, in reply to a question which he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) had put to him that
morning, Mr. Barry distinctly stated that no expen-
diture of any considerable amount ha 1 been incurred,
excepting in strict accordance with the plans and
designs submitted to that Committee. The expendi-
ture up to 1847 was certainly 1,016,000/.; but then it
must be remembered that Mr. Barry's original estimate
was for the building alone, and did not include the par-
chase of site (which cost 82,0001.), nor the River-ter-
race, which required another 139,0001. And in refer-
ence to Mr. Barry's estimate in 1849, that everything
connected with the buildings would require an aggre-
gate expenditure of about 2,000,000/., it shouldtbe recol-
lected that the following items were included in the es-
timate of 2,000,000/., but not in the original estimate of
707,0001., namely, purchase of site, embankment of
river, extra cost of foundations, approaches, alterations
of all kinds sanctioned in consequence of the recommen-
dations of. the Committee, and the suggestions of Mem-
bers, additional warming and ventilation, fireproofing,
gas and water fittings, pictures, decorations, furniture,
and incidental charges. The Honourable Gentleman
said there was no check or control over the ex-
penditure. Now of course, as Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, he was responsible, as far as his dis-
cretion wont on this subject, as much as he
was for any other class of expenditure; but it was
clearly not within his province to set himself in oppo-
sition to the decisious of this House. The only addi-
tional expenditure which he had sanctioned since 1844
was about 7,0001., and he thought the outlay justified by
the objects which it attained. The principal of those
items were 1,500/. for improving the main sewer, 1,200/.
Sur the smoking-room, and 3,0001. fur conveniences to
the library. All this outlay was made on the recom-
mendation of the Commissioners. With regard to the
Hon. Gentleman's motion, two of the estimates now
moved for by him were already upon the table of the
House. His (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) in-
tention was to take such a sum this year as would com-
plete all that portion of the building which would be
necessary to enable the House to sit in the new building
next session, with the library and corridors requisite for
that purpose. He had made inquiries as to how much
would be required by the contractor for that object, end
also enable the other parts of the building to be gone on
with slowly, so as to avoid loss, and he found that
154,660/. would be sufficient. He hoped he had now
said enough to satisfy the House that no such excess of
expenditure over the original estimate as the Hon. Gen-
tleman suppose had actually taken place, and that every
reasonable check upon the outlay was afforded.
Sir B. HALL could not understand how the original
estimate bad been so much exceeded. The architect
should have known the probable expenses of the foun-
dation when he sent in that estimate, and yet he had led
the public to suppose that the building could be com-
pleted for 707,0001. The Hon. Baronet then referred to
the report of the Committee of the House of Lords,
which stated that according to the evidence of Mr.
Barry certain departures had taken place from the origi-
nal plans.
_ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
hadsisrtaßt. ed what had been sanctioned by the Committee
of 1844.
HALL said he was stating what was the fact.
—(Hear, hear.) In 1837 Mr. Barry had furnished plans
hwya calculatedhieetappeenar.edßatlhtfatthaant
heaxdpehnedeintureexooefed7ood7,otoooa/.
chounilsdidaermabeleesaiemeofuenrt.
,p r
whichi va t e
costto
architect6o,oo Ole wwohuel d
hadthe
dye2e e0o: tv0e0d10)11
them
er
to)inl..i such a manner? So
original contract had
it was in the present case.
je latent. Disputes, it
been exceeded to a very
aufairry and Dr. Reid
appeared, had arisen between
lee
ehese had led to
as to the ventilation of the House,
additional expense. On that subject,
believed he had never been in a chamber which whe
beeter ventilated and warmed than that in which
they
then sat—(Hear, hear)—and he had never heard of
place where, at all seasons, whether full or empty, thea
thermometer varied so few degrees. He hoped, there-
fore, that Dr. Reid would still continue to ventilate and
warm that House.
Mr. GREENE said, the return of last year showed
both the original estimate and the expenses occasioned
by alterations, and they had also a tolerably clear esti-
mate of what was intended to be dose. He had no de-
sire to relieve Mr. Barry from any responsibility which
might fairly attach to him, but it was only just that the
House should take its own fair share
had h
reof that
eeeper-
petually brought under their notice fromresponsi-
bility, inasmuch as all this expenditure
and had received their sanction. Many
alteyreaatir to year,
ons
were
instance,
the at the express instance of the House; for
the removal of the seats appropriated to Members
be-
hind the Speaker's chair. It was argued that
fa Commit-
tee, anmit.
archi-
tect ought not to depend on the discretion o
tee, but should be able to judge for himself as to what
would he the proper !accommodation; but, however true
this might be in the case of ordinary buildings, it by no
means followed that it must be equally true in the case
of a building like this, with respect to which the archi-
tect had scarcely any previous experience to guide him