The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-09 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, FEBRUAR y 9, IMO

was of opinion that this emigration of labourers and their
families to the United States and British North America
in search of employment was likely to continue for many
cylea as
sr s
foundHe believed
for the
themselves,
m eaannsd of
remitted
thiscountry
which h
on
nttriys
to bring out others, would have the effect of furnishing
occupation for transport arrangements for some time.
He believed the emigration to Canada and the United
States would be kept up by the great demand for labour
there. The difficulty hitherto was in finding means of
transport, so as to allow of persons for whose labour there
was no demand here, finding their way to places where
their labour was in demand. No Government plan could
be so extensive as to effect so great a- purpose as this
kind of voluntary emigration. Government could Rot
have effected the same amount of emigration at the same
cost. Had Government laid out one and a half million
of money, the chance was they would have found every
species of abuse.—(Hear, hear.) People would have been
sent from this country with false characters, and the
system would have been found to be such a curse by the
United States and by the colonies that we should soon
have seen them making some provision to put a stop to
this emigration, and saying to this country, "Do not
send us your halt, your crippled, and your idle popula•
tion ; if such be the character of Government emigra-
tion, we must interfere and put a stop to it." Such
would be the result of the Government plan. Ho did
not mean to say that Parliament was in no instance to
give assistance towards promoting emigration; but,
seeing the result of voluntary emigration, he was
of opinion that Government interference in the shape of
burdening the taxes for funds would prove a positive
evil, and tend to diminish the present amount of emigra-
tion. Another species of emigration was that which had
been directed towards the Australian colonies when
emigrants went to found new or to increase old settle-
ntms.i appearedtout 3
that 7 in 1848-9 Emigrationnrehtan
C
87,000 persons, h t
ore m
18,000 a year. In New Zealand new settlements had
moemssilotner sen
i
been projected, and there were now 12,000 Europeans
New Zealand, and no doubt in the course of a few
years there would be a very large emigration to New
Zealand, and this colony would be found to be one
of the most flourishing of our colonies. With regard
to emigration generally, he believed it was in a satisfac-
tory coalition. He believed there would be no com-
plaint that large bodies of emigrants were sent to places
where their labour was not wanted, and where their
condition would be even worse than when at home. He
had now stated the principal parts of that which he
wished to put the House in possession of with respect
to Colonial Government. He had not attempted to do
more than just give the leading facts with respect to
important questions, each of which was matter for a se-
parate night's debate.—(He ar, hear.) He thought it was
useful for the House to have even this imperfect sketch
of the state of the colonies, and the propositions which
Government intended by the help of an enactment to be
carried into effect. The whole result of what he meant
to say was, that however well-founded the dissatisfac-
tion of some of our colonies, it must be placed
to the account of the transition, painful to the
parties, from monopoly to a system of free trade. The
House ought not to go back from what it had de-
creed, but ought to treat the colonies on the principle
that this country was at liberty to obtain from other coun-
tries whatever she might want and be able to get cheaper,
and that the colonies were to have liberty to trade
to all pasts of the world in that manner which seemed
best to themselves.—(Cheers.) This, in future, would
bs the cardinal point of their policy.—(Hear, hear.) The
next point would be, that in uniformity with the princi-
ples of our ancestors, as far as possible, Government
would proceed on the principle of introducing and main-
taining political freedom in our colonies.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought, wherever it was asserted of a colony, poli-
tical freedom could not be introduced, that House was
bound to show the reason for this exception—(Hear,
hear)—and to show, with respect to the native races,
there was not such a mixture of British people as would
make it safe to introduce British regulations.—(Hear,
hear.) It men were sent to the colonies capable of
governing themselves, give them full liberty to govern
themselves—(Hear, hear)—and, while you have your
representatives there with regard to foreign relations,
yet, in all their domestic concerns, interfere no further
than necessary to prevent discord in society.—(Hear,
hear.) These he conceived to be sound principles, and
they were the principles on which the present Go-
vernment intended to proceed; and when the general
features of the measure had obtained the assent
and approbation of the House, he should be glad,
with respect to the details, to adopt any better
mode of carrying out these great principles than the one
pointed out in the Bill. But he would say they were
not then considering whether they should part with their
colonies or make the connexion more loose, ear even
leave them to defend themselves in the best way against
foreign aggresson.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the
exact amount of military force for the colonies, he re-
served to himself the right of discussing the question on
a future occasion. With respect to some of the colonies,
he might say that the fever into which they had been
thrown had mainly diminished. He believed that if
they proceeded on this principle, without any danger to
the present, there might be a question arise hereafter
which they might solve without the danger of such an
unhappy confitet as that which took place in what were
now called the United States of America. In looking back
to the origin of that unhappy contest, he did not think
it was a single error or a single blunder, but a series of
repeated errors and repeated blunders of policy asserted,
and then recalled —of policy again asserted, con-
cessions made when too late, and of obstinacy when it
was unreasonable. He believed it had been by such a
course that this country entered into that unhappy con-
flict, by which the loyal provinces of North America
were lost.—(Hear.) He trusted that they would never
again have to deplore such a contest. He did, indeed,
anticipate that some of these colonies would so grow in
population, commerce, and wealth, that the colonists
might say that their strength and power was sufficient
for them to become an independent country, and that the
link of the chain had become onerous to them—that the
time was come when they thought that those in Aus-
tralia and all other colonies should maintain their inde-
pendence. But he (Lord J. Russell) said, let the Legis-
lature make these people, as far as possible, fit to govern
themselves. Give to them as Jar as possible the capa-
city to manage their own affairs. Let them but increase
in wealth and power, and they would be thus qualified;
and whatever might happen, this nation would at least
have the consolation of knowing that she had contri-
buted largely to the happiness of the world.—(Cheers.)
Sir W. MOLES WORTH said that the Noble Lord
bad commenced his speech by explaining the origin of
our colonial policy, and he went on to prove the vast in-
crease of population and commerce in our colonies, espe-
cially in Australia, and hence the Noble Lord inferred
the great value of the colonies to the mother country,
and he argued that it was not for the advantage of this
country to abandon these colonies. In most of these ob-
servations he entirely agreed. But, then, the Noble
Lord proceeded to raise the question of our future colo-
nial policy, in order to retain our colonial empire. He
was so dull that he could not distinctly understand the
principle of colonial policy of the Noble Lord. But give
the power to the colonists to frame their own constitu-
tions—if they were to be allowed to carry out those old
principles of their charters—then would the Noble Lord
find in him a z'alous adherent. Theo the Noble Lord
went on to cast a censure upon an association of gentle-
men which had been formed for the reform of the co-
lonial government.; Now he (Sir W. Molesworth), as ono
of the gentlemen who had been alluded to, would state
the reason which induced him to join that association.
The gentlemen did so form themselves into a society
because they entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in
thinking that we ought to maintain our colonial empire.
They aid so form an association because they felt that
there was no hope from the Colonial-office of a complete
reform of ;_the colonial system ; because they believed
that as by the errors, blunders, and obstinacy of former
colonial officers we had lost the American States, so
were we likely now to lose those which remained. That
association was framed hecause they had no faith in the
capacity of the Colonial-offis to introduce real reforms,
or to introduce a practical Bill fur the better government
of the colonies of Australia. They had presented some
fancied model constitution year after year. On the
14th August, 1846, the Under Secretary for the Colo-
nies stated that he hoped and trusted her Majesty's
Government would he able to give their attention to
the consideration of a better form of govern-
ment for Van Diemen's Land—and great was the
le
excitement there on. hearing this news. On the 17thi of
May, 1847, the Under Secretary said that it
ens, In
contemplation, nay, that he might say a heht ure was
Australian Thy
Hon. in , preparation with a view to give the leeimisits of the
on. Gentleman British constitution i tot the
themeasure
was
i n colonies. n
a
ad-
vanced
state, and would be brought forward in that ses-
sion, or at the beginning of the next session. The Vice-
President of the Board of Trade, on. the 7th March,
1848, spoke of the intention to greoht free institutions to
Australia. On the Bth May, 1948, the Prime Minister
stated it was his intention to introduce a measure as
early as possible. Week Diter week went on without
the arrival of this Bill, and for four months the Under
Secretary waited in vain for the opportunity, and on the
18th of August, 1848,? 'sine Hon. Gentleman assured the
House that at the earoiest period of the next session the
Bill would be laid on the table. After a lapse of three
years a Bill wae, produced; but it was so premature
that it had to, be withdrawn.—(No, no.) Why, the
Noble Lord again, on the 2d July, announced that a most
importanA change had to be made in the Bill, On the
17th J aly they withdrew the Bill of the Noble Lord,
and thus, year after year, for the last four years, the
fairest ppromises had been made; but the just hopes and
expectations of the colonies had been disappointed and
blighted. These proceedings had produced the greatest
distrust and excitement in our colonies generally. Not
only did discontent prevail in Australia, but in various
quarters of our colonial empire. Bitter complaints were
made against our colonial system, and the colonists of
the Cape of Good Hope declared that tho Noble Lord
at the head of the colonial department had broken a
solemn pledge with them. The people of Van Diemen'a
Land accused the Noble Lord of a breach of faith. The
as to transportation. He had himself, thatn
night, pre-
sented a petition from the
signed by 6,000 colony of New South Wales,
persons, who told the Noble Lord
would oppose any further transportation they
that colony. A complete reformoftlic of Tersvicts to
was necessary.ho oneal system
The question was, to at extent of re-
form would this measure of the Noble what
of our colonies complained of a want of fr 'go? Some
or the want of power to alter or amend e:iestiinstitutions,
institu-
then& Almost all complained of the appointmengt All complained of tho interference of the appointments
made.
office, and where transportation was carried nial-
discontent was strongly expressed. He would root
enter into the question of colonial policy, but he would
consider two thinge. First, as to the form of govern-
ment or constitution to be furnished; and secondly, as
to the powers which ought to be delegated to the colo-
nial authorities. First, with regard to the form of go-
vernment, he could not distinctly understand what form
the Noble Lord intended to give to the Cape of Good
Hope._
_lie believed that the Noble Lord intended to give

to all the Australian colonies the present constitution of
New South Wales. Now, suppose that there were in
that House 110 Members who had seats in virtue of
holding office under Government, and who held those
seats only so long as they held office ; and suppose they
had, besides those 110 official Members, 110 others who
were appointed as Members of Parliament by the Go-
vernment at the commencement of every Parliament—
making together 220 votes at the, disposal of the Go-
vernment ; and suppose that they were to get rid of
the House of Lords, and that, instead of her Majesty
the Queen, they had some governor over them of the
ordinary sort. Suppose all this, and they would then
enjoypee e
nt blessingsfashin th
s ofofN
theew
seßritishuth Constitution,wrales.( A l a
uagtht e
ther
.
How would such a constitution work in this country
and in that House ? Why, they would be divided into
prase
two violent factions, actuated by the very bitterest
animus. No measures would be deemed safe which
were decided against the majority of the elected.
The Noble Lord said that the people of New South
Wales were content with the present form ef govern-
ment, and he did not know whether the Noble Lord had
received any late accounts, but he (Sir W. nlolesworth)
had read something of the late deliberations of the Le-
gislative Council, and he found that what they felt was,
that they would rather have even their present constitu-
tion than that which had been propoLed to them by the
Noble Lord. He presumed what they wanted was, that
power should be given to the colonies to alter and amend
the constitution and to make the two Chambers elective.
If this power were conceded to the colonial Legislatures
it would diminish some of his objections to the Bill of the
Noble Lord. If the Noble Lord would adopt the old
sound principles of colonial policy he would do better.
He hoped he would leave the colonies to find constitu-
tions fur themselves. But all our attempts at constitu-
tions had been ridiculous. They all knew the .history
of the constitution for New Zealand; it was enacted
one year and suspended the next. It was rumoured,
too, that Sir Harry Smith had been called upon to pro-
vide a constitution for the Cape of Good Hope. Now,
though he had a high respect for the gallant officer's
character, still he must observe he was not by nature
or profession fitted to be a Solon. If tf ey sought
to frame such constitutions as should give general
satisfaction, let the Government send out to the
colonies to obtain the opinions of each colony generally,
and this ought to be done, not merely by asking the opi-
nion of the Governor, or by referring to some colonial
newspapers; they ought to assemble the representatives
of the people, and desire them to declare how the case
stood. It the Government did not do this, let them give
to the colonies the largest powers of altering and amend-
ing their constitutions, whilst they, also allowed them to
mave their governors elective. That was the case under
the old charters. Then, secondly, what were the powers
which were to be delegated to the Colonial-office; these
were much more important considerations than were
colonial local matters. He was sorry to hear that it
was the intention to retain the arbitrary power on the
part of the Crown of disallowing Acts passed by the
local legislative bodies, and thus keep up the system
of interference in the management of the affairs of the
colonies. This interference had always been a perpe-
tual souice of discontent. Who were the persons
intrusted with this E arbitrary power ? Why, those
men in official capacities whose position changed
with every change of Government who were
absentee rulers—who had never ocular demonstration of
the wants of the colony—who were always obliged to
trust to second-hand and one-sided information. And
worse than being ignorant, these men were misinformed,
It was said that these men were responsible to Parlia-
ment, but that was an utter farce. If those whom he ad-
dressed were at the Antipodes, how would they like to
wait three years to see whether Acts of Parliament were
law or not? Wherefore did the Noble Lord wish to
maintain this arbitrary power? He entirely agreed in
thinking that means must be taken to prevent the colo-
nies from passing laws which would be injurious to or
affect the imperial powers, but he denied that for that
purpose they must give arbitrary power to the Colonial-
office. All executive and legislative powers in regard to
colonies might be divided into two classes, the one class
comprising the imperial powers, and the other the powers
delegated to the colonial Legislature for the exercise of
all local powers, and he would presently state what
those, powers were. It was of great importance how
these imperial powers were to be exercised. On the
other hand it was of little importance to this country in
what manner the local affairs were managed. The co-
lony was not dissatisfied with the imperial Govern-
ment on account of the manner in which their local
affairs were administered. He contended it was impos-
sible for a man on one side of the globe to minister to
the supplies of the Anglo-Saxon on the other side of the
globe. He would take away from the Crown the power
to disallow Acts passed by the colonial Legislatures,
and he would limit its powers to cases affecting the Im-
perial rights. The House had more of " Imperial
powers" than perhaps they had expected to hear from
him, and he was prepared to enumerate what these Im-
perial powers were if the House would allow him to
read some five or six pages. The Committse must un-
derstand that I propose that the colonial Legislature
shall be absolutely prohibited, without the consent of her
Majesty, from making any law affecting or derogating
from the following powers. I would enact that the co-
lonial Legislature should not have the power to send or
receive ambassadors, to or from, or to enter into any
treaty, alliance, or confederation with any prince,
state, or power; to grant letters of marque and
reprisal during peace or war, and to grant safe con-
ducts during war; the power to declare or make
war; conceding to the colony, when actually in-
vaded, or in such imminent danger as not to admit
of delay, the power to engage in war; the power
to confiscate the property of alien enemies in time
of war; the power to establish prize courts, the com-
mand of the militia in time of war, and at all times the
command of all regular naval and military forces em-
ployed in and about the said colony; the power to coin
money or regulate its value, or that of foreign coin; the
power to grant titles of nobility; the power to regulate
the transmission of letters by sea to and from the colony
of New South Wales and any other place; the power to
take any land situate within the said colony upon making
due compensation to the owners and occupiers thereof
for the purpose of erecting beacons and lighthouses
thereon, and to make such regulations as may be deemed
expedient for the proper management thereof; the power
of keeping any landor naval forces in or about the said co-
lony or the coast thereof; the power of erecting forts, ma-
gazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings
far military purposes—the power of placing garrisons
therein, and of exercising exclusive jurisdiction within
the precincts thereof; the power of taking possession of
any waste land situate within the said colony, and of any
other land therein, upon making due compensation to the
owners and occupiers thereof, for the purpose of erecting
such forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other need-
ful buildings, and for any other military purpose; the power
of assenting to such Bills as are hereinafter mentioned to
require such assent. Secondly, I would enact that
the colonial legislature shell not have power without the
n c
ft
whichr
omaffecting
his
such
e theha le gs
appealt
ay e
e ne
n; andwt to deprive
subsists;dignity
any
m thea k Cpe
er
anyro , wo ,
law oorf
consent of her Majesty to make any law; to establish
slavery; to alter the succession to the Crown, or pass
i nt
ot m
here n t
Majestyof a Reg e
inot ;
Ctooo
ra,
eletsl,o
ivoe
aa
on :7,
relating
the
r right
tt to
f the
appeal
pappepa appointment
caseperson
Ai
containingßt
aai no y;
tomo amt taekre orao
yt h
an gw coresn pt
ei ryt n
gt oe
ai hp
nations, as received and administered in the courts of
land or water, or to define piracies and felonies coin-
rnittsd en the high Seas; t -oet url sw bo of
make any law affecting the
command, regulations, or discipline of her Majesty's
military and naval force; to make anything but gold or
silver coin a legal tender; to define treason or alter the
law relating thereto; to lay any duties on supplies to
her Majesty's military and naval forces; to bring in any
Porte from any part of her Majesty's
Bill of attainder; to impose any differential duty on
imports to or ex
dominions, or any duty inconsistent with any
treaty that already has been, or may hereafter
be entered into between her Majesty, her heirs
and successors, and any foreign country ; to
confer any privilege or immunity on the inhabi-
tante of New South Wales that shall not equally be
conferred en the ether subjects of her Majesty, and every
law or provision in a law in contravention of this chime
shall be void. Now, in consequence of these reservations,
veeeious legal questions would arise, affecting boundaries
and other questions, which I would propose to refer to
the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy
Council, as the tribunal most esteemed in this country in
all cases where questions of constitutional law are con-
cerned. Thus I would constitute for the present arbi-
trary power of the Colonial-office a legally-defined power.
Now, there is nothing which men of our race die-
like more than arbitrary power—nothing which they
respect more than a legally-defined power.—(Hear.)
At present the colonial legislatures do not know what
laws they may, and what laws they may not make. In
fact, they may at present make any laws whatever, af-
feeting imperial interests in any manner, whatever pro-
vided the Colonial-office does not disallow them within
a certain period of time. On the other hand the colonial
legislatures cannot make, any law which the Colonial-
office may not disallow. I propose, theref,re, in the
manner which I hare explained, to enable the colonial
legislatures to know precisely what laws they may
make, and what laws they must abstain from making;
and propose to settle all disputes upon this subject
by means of the decisions of one of the highest
and most esteemed judicial tribunals in this country.
have now answered the challenge that those who would
effect reform in our colonial system should state what in
their opinion the alterations should consist in. In
order to reduce my principles to a practical shape, I
have, with the aid of some legal friends of mine,
prepared a Bill for New South Wales. I do not
propose to introduce a Bill. I should require the
assent of the Government-to do so. _ But, iif the Go-

vtrnment and the House should desire it, I :will in-
troduce a measure on the subject. I now only pledge
myself to general principles and to a general outline. I
do not pledge myself to minute details; for, in order to
make a perfect measure, information would be required
from the Colcnial-office, and it would be necessary to
consult conAitntional lawyers. I must now beg pardon
for trespassing so long on the attention of tbo Com-
mittee, but 1 must rest rov excuse in the challenge
thrown out by the Noble Lord.—(flear.) In conclusion
I would say that the true colonial policy to pursue is,
to have faith in our colonists—(Cheers)—to believe that
the colonists arc rational men (Hear, hear)—to believe
t"t they can understand their local comerns better than
We
can— (1-le4r)—and to give them an uncontrolled ma-
nagement over their local, as contradistinguished
I':°111 Imperial affairs. Then we should find the cede-
(
9)e3, so relieved from a ha ted tyranny,
whce-arty
should G. boring a more
allegiance to the IVE on arch of these realms; then
-nd them - 11'❑gly obeying the Imperial
laws and those governors s"
tion-whom Parliament should
delegate its
with the TPowers 1g wing no reason to find fault
Imperial Gov,/ I.' nment, and being bound to
the empire ,- h
y, the stro v gent ties of cell-
interest and
affection.,,_e
l Beers )
Mr. ANSI:EY tho.-ug.t4 1
,
Oa4 t the Into in respect to die-

allowing Acts passed by the colonial legislatures should
be limited only to matters affecting the Imperial rights
or interests. The Hon. Baronet (Sir W. Molesworth)
proposed to abolish the Colonial-office under one name'
and create it under another—he proposed to abolish
Earl Grey, and transfer his functions to the Judicial
Committee of the Privy Council.—(" No; no," from Sir
Mole3worth.) The Hon. Baronet said it would
be impossible to determine in some cases whether or not
the colonial legislature had exceeded its functions,
and that in such cases the Judicial Committee should
determine.—(No, no.) If that was not the Hon.
Baronet's meaning, he (Mr. A.) made no other objection
to the proposition than this—that they would be left
without even the assistance cf the Judicial Committee to
determine whether a case for the interference of the
Crown had occurred or not, and there. would be litiga-
tion without end between the colonies and the Crown.
The true objection to the plan proposed for the Austra-
lian colonies was this—that one-third of the council
were to be the nominees of the Crown. With reference to
Van Diemen's Land, the operation of the plan would be
simply this:—lf one-third of the Members were nomi-
nees of the Crown, the majority which would be found
to support the measures of the local Government would
form, perhaps two-thirds of the entire council, because
almost the whole of the property of that island, in eon-
s( quence of its financial condition, was placed at the dis-
posal of the chief officers of the Government, all of whom
were shareholders and managers of the principal banks
—those bankers possessing mortgages over nine-tenths
of the property in the island, and being in a position to
compel the owners of the property to execute their will
and pleasure. The better plan would be to allow those
who were not under such influence to elect the Lower
House, and other parties to form the Upper, and in that
way things would correct themselves.
Mr. H. J. BAILLIE said the Noble Lord had stated
that the franchise under the constitution granted to
British Guinea had been considerably increased. The
Committee-which sat to consider the grievances of that
colony had recommended that the alterations in the
constitution should be made in friendly concert with the
colonial authorities. When that paragraph was under
discussion he asked Sir R. Peel if he considered it acting
in friendly concert with the colonial authorities to force
a Bill through the Court of Policy only by official votes,
and the Right Hon. Baronet replied that he should con-
sider such a proceeding most objectionable. Now that
was the course to which the Governor of British Guinea
resorted. The new Franchise .Bill was forced thrciugh
the Court of Policy by judicial votes only. Every one
of the elected Members voted against the measure, which
was finally carried by the double vote of the Governor.
Every one of the elected Members resigned his seat, and
refused to be put in nomination under the new Bill.—
(Hear, hear.) Instead of the number of electors having
increased, he was informed that the number had been
reduced by about 200; and as an instance of the manner
in which the elections were managed in that colony, he
would just state that, in the county of Essequibo, the
Solicitor-General was proposed by the county clerk and
seconded by the gaoler.—(Laughter.) •
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it had been his duty as a
member of the Committee of Privy Council of Trade
and Plantations, to take a share in the construction of
the two important measures relating to the colonies of
Australia and British Guiana. He admitted the pro-
priety of giving the most ample powers of self-govern-
ment to the colonies with regard to their local affairs,
and he thought every candid man would allow that The
Government had been actuated by a sincere desire to
give constitutional freedom and happiness to the inha-
bitants of these two vast portions of our colonial em-
pire.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard with some surprise
the censure cast upon the Government with regard to
Australia. Now he had seen intelligence from that part
of the world which showed that the people would re-
ceive in a very different spirit these proposals to which
the Hon. Member made so much objection. He cer-
tainly had received no official dispatches, but he would
call the attention of the House to a sentence in the
Sydney Herald, of the 19th of September, a paper
which represented the opinions of the popular
party. That paper said that the report sent out was
one of the ablest and moat conciliatory documents of
the kind ever laid before the public. " Never before did
the colony of New South Wales receive so large a share
of Ministerial consideration, liberality, and kindness as
in the present instance. Her Majesty in council' has
conceded to us nearly everything we asked." He had
received another newspaper from Port Phillip, the Vic-
teria Colonist, of the 14th of September, in which it was
said, " It must be satisfactory to the Government to
find that the boon they have granted to the Australian
colonies has diffused such general satisfaction through-
out the province of Victoria. All the newspapers are
unanimous in their expressions of approval, and have
not given the slightest whisper of dissent."—(Hear,
hear.) He had every reason t believe that the inhabi-
tants of Australia were less critical and less difficult to
please than those gentlemen who defended their interests
in that House, and that they would with feelings of
gratification accept a measure which had been framed
with a sincere desire to promote their benefit and place
them on the footing of free members of the British
empire, and which would lay the foundation of
a free constitution, and thus tend to produce their
prosperity and happiness.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Baronet said that the constitution of the Cape of Good
Hope was to be left to Sir Harry Smith. Nothing could
be more completely at variance with the fact, the truth
being that the main principles of the constitution were
imperatively laid down. Not having the difficulty to
deal with which existed in the case of the Australian
colonies, the Government introduced the three estates,
and placed them in a governor and two council,. The
only thing left to Sir H. Smith was the carrying out cf
certain eetails with regard to qualification, and other
matters with which it would be extremely difficult to
deal in this country, from want of information which
Sir H. Smith and his able council could most effectively
supply.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Labouchere) consi-
dered that it would be extremely difficult to draw a
strict line of distinction between what was imperial and
what was local and colonial, and was cf opinion that a
reference of matters to the decision of the Privy Council
would involve the colonies and the mother country in
endless difficulties.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK said the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government bad dome two things—he had explained
the policy of the Government with regard to our colonial
possessions, and he had explained one specific act of
legislation which he intended to propose. In announcing
part of the general policy the Noble Lord laid its foun-
dation on the previous history of our colonial posses-
sions, but he struck out the most important portion of
that colonial history—namely, that which related to the
United States, confining his observations to certain
charters given to Lord Carlisle, as governor of the
West India possessions. The Hor. \Baronet said, these
charters were simply broad and general powers con-
ferred on the colonies, whereby they might make con-
stitutions for themselves. But that was not the case.
the charters given to the colonies were most pecu-
liarly definite, specific, and particular, so much so,
that some of them were no* in actual existence as
constitutions. Lord Clarendon, in the reign of
Charles 1., conferred on Rhode Island so liberal a
constitution that to the present hour it remained the
constitution of that stele, and it was so specifically given
that under it they !here able to elect a body which was
the governing body at the present time.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord laid down certain general propositions,
nod he said that it was the intention of the Government
to give the colonies.the entire government of their own
concerns. He (Mr. R.) was glad to hear that declara-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) After going through the portion
of history to which he (Mr. R.) had alluded, the Noble
Lord dealt with the conduct of certain gentlemen to-
wards the Government, with respect to their colonial
policy. Now, if these gentlemen wanted a justification
of their conduct, that justification might be found in the
course now taken by the Noble Lord.s-(lltar,
With regard to South Africa, he (Mr. R.) had nothing
e
bear.)
more to ask.—(Hear, hear.) But he would warn u _
Noble Lord of the consequences. The Noble Lord
.co could
never have two or tbree measures for the colonies.—
(Hear, hear.) The colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia,
New 'Brunswick would all demand elective councils.
He had seen civil war arise because these coun-
cils had been denied. The Noble Lord having arrived
at the conclusion that a double chamber was necer
re-
spect y,
and that the two chambers should be elective it
to South Africa, he (Mr. Roebuck) could with
see
how the Noble Lord had arrived at don opposite
conclu-
sion with regard to New South Wales.—(Hear, hear.)
Great objections would be entertained' to the system of
nomination. Legislation of that kind would not satisfy
the people, because it would not be the legislation
the
of the
people elected by the people. The prejudices of
peo-
ple would be raised by the fact of a set' of men sitting
as nominees. The Noble Lord having proceeded so far
with respect to South Africa, he (Mr. Roebuck) wished
to know why he should halt in his narch—why he
should be persuaded out of his
.better mind? His better
mind served him in South Africa, but getting to New
South Wales it deserted him, and some evil genius inter-
vened. He did not see why a blot should be placed on
the largest portion of our colonial possessions. If two
chambersdid they propose five new
were best, why
constitutions for Australia on a different principle? He
hoped they would consider this question with what an
Hon. Member called a knowledge of human nature. 'lt
was a great experiment, and he hoped they would not
do anything which would sow the seeds of discontent,
or which would plant a quarrel that would grow up and
overshadow the.benefits of the measure.
Mr. HAWES, in answer to a remark of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, said he would refer him to the peti-
tion of the inhabitants of New South Wales to show
that they regarded the Act sth and 6th Victoria as a
great boon. The Legislative Council established by that
Act might be called a popular body, inasmuch as, con-
sisting of 36 members, only 12 of that number were no-
minees, the other 24 being elective. In framing a con-
stitution for New South Wake, the Government had
thought it advisable to propose what they believed
would be most acceptable to the people. If public opinion
should desire a double chamber, the Legislative Council
would have power under the proposed Bill of modifying
the constitution proposed to be granted. That was the
course most deferential to the public feeling in New South
Wales which could be taken by the Government. The
Hon. and Leaxned Gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) had spoken
of the proposed elective assembly for the Cape colony
as an innovation upon the former system of colonial con-
sti tutions. It was his (Mr. Hawes's) wish that the House
she uld consider that as a declaration on the part of
Parhament that, in colonies with a large European po•
pultetion, and possessing a representative assembly, the
proposition for elective legislative councils would meet
with. sao further opposition from this country.—(Hear,
hear-) He could assure the Hon. Member for South-
wark that it had never been his intention to depart from
the promise he made in 1846 as far as regards the con-
stitution for the Cape. As regarded the Australian co-
lonies, a Bill had been laid on the table of the House
last year. With respect to the present measure it had
actually been framed, and the intention to introduce it
announced long before the Colonial Reform Association
was thought of.—(Bear, hear.) The suggestion of the

Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark for the ap-
pointment of a Judicial Council to decide as to Imperial
and local questions, would be productive of injurious
consequences if carried into effect. The Hon. Member
for Inverness had referred to Guiana, and to the case of
an election where only two persons had voted. But
it did not follow, because there was no contest, that
there was no constituency. Many Hon. Members of
that House bad been electsd without even two votes
having been given. After the able arid ceinprehensive
statement of the Noble Lora the First Minister, hr
should say no more, but postpone what othe'r ease -vs-
rions‘he had to make until the measure was befosa then.
He trusted that it would meet with the approval of the
House, and that the result would be, that all our great
colonies would be possessed of institutions anelagous to
those of the mother country.
Mr. GLADSTONE would not on the present occasion
enter upon any discussion of the general principles of
colonial policy laid down by the Noble Lord, nor would
he enter upon any defence of the Colonial Reform Asso-
ciation. There might be points in the constitution of
that society open to criticism, but it was entitled to the
credit of having given a stimulus to the proceedings of
the Government.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt the Austra-
lian Bill had been framed as stated by the Under-Secre -
tary before the Colonial Reform eiesociat on
was thought of; but the Australian Bill was not the ob-
i( et of their admiration. The credit cif the Government
rested on the more recent production of the outline of
the Cape constitution, which he apprehendei ha • be, re
prepared subsequent to the proceedings cf the association.
Mr. HA WES—Ne.
Mr. GLADSTONE—He believed the idea cf
the Legislative Council was conceived in the
Board cf Trade in January, 1850. He was not desirous
on the present occasion of saying a word aaainst the
Government proposition of a single chamber for the
Australian colonies. He believed the Bill was conceived
in a friendly spirit. But how stood the case with regard
to a single chamber in New South Wales? The Under-
Secretary for the Colonies had said that be preferred
a double chamber, but had adopted a single chamber out
of deference to the feeling of the people a New South
Wales, who were opposed to the creation of an Upper
House; and the Hon. Gentleman added, that he had
provided a remedy, as the Bill would give the Legisla-
tive Assembly a power of re-modelling itsel, and estab-
lishing, if it thought fit, a double chamber. The
remedy, in his opinion, would be an imperfect one. The
object was to obtain the sentiments of the -population of
New South Wales. He knew of no British interests in
Australia apart from the interests of the people of the
colony.—(Hear.) This body, which was to hare the
power of modifying the constitution, was a body in
which nominations largely entered. In the Legislative
Council there might be a majority of the elected Mem-
bers favourable to a double chamber, and yet that ma-
jority might be converted into a minority by the nomi-
nated Members opposing them.—(Hear.) What more
likely than that the nominated Members should object
to any desire for a second chamber by the elected Mem-
bers. Naturally those Members would be arrayed
against the proposal for a double chamber, and therefore
the remedy proposed would be inoperative. The ques-
tion of the second chamber had never been before the
people of New South Wales, and they bad never de-
cided in favour of a single chamber. The question whe-
ther the second chamber should be elective or not was
one which would have to be considered well, whenever it
was proposed to grant one. He thought the constitu-
tion of some of our North American colonies was some-
what defective on this point.' Lord Elgin, in order to
bring the Legislative Council into harmony with the
House of Assembly, had been obliged to make nomina-
tions which swamped the former body. If the second
chamber were elective, it would derive its strength from
the same source as the other chamber. Something sunder
to this was the state of the French Chamber and the
President, who both held their power from the same
body of electors. His opinion was that if they wished
to give strength to an Upper House iu the colonies they
must make it elective. The decision to which the people
of New South Wales had come was natural; but it was
presumption to assume that they were opposed to a dou-
ble chamber. Be thought the Under Secretary had fallen
into au error with respect to the Governor of Van Die-
men's Land. If the Hon. Gentleman would refer to the
dispatch of August, 1848, he would find the governor
stating that, without presuming to assert what would be
the best form of the legislative body, he might say that
under the peculiar circumstances of the time, the adop-
tion of an upper or second chamber would be strenuously
rejected. [Mr. Hewes made an observation which was
not heard in the gallery.] The GoVernor was stating his
opinion at the time he wrote. There were two reasons
why they ought to establish a double chamber in Austra-
lia. When the Australian colonists learnee that au upper
elective chamber had been granted to the Cape, they
would at once demand a similar institution. And, in the
second place, though the present constitution of New
South Wales was a good one when granted some six or
seven years age, it ve as not now a good constitution. He
did not like the gathering together a fixed number of
gentlemen as nominees to the council opposed to the
elected members. Their nomination had nothing of the
grace or dignity attached to the calling of individuals
to the Upper-House in this country. The twelve nomi-
nations in the Legislative Council of 'New South Wales wee e
there to support it was supposed the influence of the-Crown,
but their appointment involved a fundamental and fatal
error. It proceeded on the assumption that the Crown
had a distinct interest from the people.—(Hear.) It
tended to create a party in the colony who were pre-
sumed to be in a peculiar manuer loyal and attached to
Britain.—(Hear.) lie did not deny that their govern-
ment were loyal, but it was dangerous to do anything to
create a British party. They should confider the whole
colonists the British party.— (Hear.) If so, they ought
to leave them to themselves., and not adopt institutions
that would lead to the supposition that this country and
the colonists tad separate interests.—(Hear.) He
should be ready when the Bill came telore the House to
argue in favour of establishing a double chamber.
Mr. HAWES explained, and referred to the dispatch
of the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to show that
any change of the present system of one chamber in the
New South Wales constitution would be looked on with
suspicion by the colonists.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought the Hon. Under Secre-
tary should not have overlooked another part of the dis-
patch, where the Governor of Van Diemen's Land stated
that he would not have the least objection to recommend
an upper chamber for Van Diemen'b Land.
Mr. HUME expressed his delight at the promises
held out by the Noble Lord, and hoped that he would
be able to carry them out. He cordially approved of
the proposed Constitution for theha
mCbaepre
wasg Colony,ood and
r
inhabitants, upper c
an'itwas good for a colony
at hconulgnhb
yt aBtoi,fooa no
ienl
with 200.000 inhabitants. He was not one of those
ni ounn
trt3a,ke , i
t placejustibeset wwenesn o d
nnuer
colonies
si raehddto
trseee
ma
ostehpearract
them,
but
he hhaadvaeltwaakyean feltp l
atchea
fs ooeunrer
oldor latersstae
m of
sepa-
ration would
governing them had been persevered in.—(Hear.)
An improved system of colonial government would not
beneficial to the colonies,ut
would save this
only be
country from
tah(!narsgsnedasmoo
fu net
uorf et xr
optepnsd
wouldi tu re ; theer under
such system
drawn from the most distant stations l
s oafitdhedenmwpnirhey.
lie
earnestly hoped that the principles
Lordwould be carried fully into effect ; and if
not be deesppointed in that hope, he felt he Noblesh should
as-
sured thatd the most happy results would be produced by
the contemplated alteration in our colonial policy.
Mr. ADDERLEY said he believed that the conse-
quences of the course they might pursue upon that sub-
ject &ould be either to rivet the attachment of the
colonies to the mother country and to relieve the empire
at large from many difficulties and burdens, or else to
exasperate the colonies by the disappointment of their
just expectations, and, perhaps, to create among them
feelings of irritation which would lead to the loss of
them for ever. After all that had transpired that even-
ing, he could not help congratulating the House and the
empire at large on the fact that there existed in this
country an organized channel for the expression of pub-
lic opinion on colonial questions. The exertions of the
Colonial Reform Association had, at haq, so far suc-
ceeded as to force the Noble Lord to place in the pro-
per position of prominence among the debates of the
session the great que.tion then under their considera-
tion. The Noble Lord had objected to the proposal of
that association to correspond with the colonies. But it
should be remembered that they only wished for an
" accredited " correspondence, and that their great ob-
ject was to obtain the most accurate information upon
the subjects which might come under their notice. He
regretted to find that the scheme laid down that even-
ing by the Noble Lord contained no great advance
upon the scheme which had been condemned
last session, except in the proposal for granting a
constitution to the Cape of Good Hope. He could not
help disapproving of the proposal of the Noble Lord to
retain in the hands of the Government the nomination of
so large a portion of the council in New South Wales;
and lie could see no sufficient reason for establishing
there one chamber only. The Noble Lord supposed
that publiC opinion in New South Wales was decidedly
in favour of such an arrangement; but he (Mr. Adderley)
found no proof of the existence of such a feeling. For
his part he earnestly hoped that her Majesty's Govern-
ment would think it advisable to assimilate theconsti-

tution of New. South Wales as nearly as possible to the
constitution of the mother country. Ttiere was a very ex-
traordinary provision id the proposed constitution for
the Cape of Good Hope, and one which would yet, he
hoted, be modified. He alluded to the proposal for
leaving the election of the Upper Chamber to a body of
public officials. That would be a most strange proceed-

ing ; and he believed it had only been suggested by the
Noble Lord in consequence of his extreme reluctance to
take the formation of the council out of the hands of
the Government. He (Mr. Adderley) wished to see
self-government extended to the colonies, not as a con-
cession to clamour, but in obedience to the dictates of

sound police and of justice. He trusted the colonization
Fad higher objects time war or commerce, and hoped
that we had already laid the foundations in four colonies

of civilization and freedom.

Mr. AGLIONBY complained of the disparaging tone
in which the Noble Lord at the head of the Government

had referred to the Co!onial Reform Association, which
he (Mr. Aglionby) certainly would have joined had he
been aware of its formation, and which he thought
would be cf great use in keeping, the public attention
aline to colonial matters. Nor did he think the worse
of it became it derived its information on colonial mat-
ters from accredited agents. The Government derived
all their information from their governers, who were
sometimes at variance with the colonists, and on whose
accounts, therifore, implicit reliance ought not to be
placed. Ho had listened with great satisfaction to the
speech of the Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield,
and should look for his views during the progress of the
question with great enxiety. He was astoni.hed to hear
the Noble Lord at the head of the Government Observe
that New Zealand was to have no other than a nominee

form of government till March, 1853. Would
that be tolerated? Impossible• and he gave the Noble
Lord notice, that if, when the _gill owe before Parlid-