The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-29 00:00:00

IMP ER.

AMENT.

from obtaining a limitation of their hours of labour,
considering that he was: at present receiving a large
pension for doing nothing out of the taxes imposed
upon the people. Now the pensions which he and
his Noble and Learned Friend received were only
compensations for large incomes they had sacrificed at
the bar. His Noble and Learned Friend behind him
(Lord Campbell) was in a still worse position, for he had
given up a large income, yet he did not • receive any
pension.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 28.
Their Lordships filet at the usual hour.
Messengers from the Commons brought up the Mutiny
Bill, the Marine Mutiny Bill, and other Bills, which were
,Pead a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-
orrow. _

ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR.
" Lord DINORBEN presented a petition against the
union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.
Lord KENYON presented a similar petition from the
University of Oiford.
The Earl of ROSEBERY presented a petition from
several Dissenting congregations in the town of Birming-
ham against the Dissenters' Property Bill, stating
that it was likely to be attended with most injurious
effects.

- Lord CAMPBELL—I often work ten hours a day.
Lord BROUGHAM said his Noble and Learned
Friend had worked ten hours a day, and frequently
worked so hard that he envied the situation of the factory
children. Some of the letters requested him to follow
up the useful suggestion which he had made, that
wages should be fixed at a minimum, and that
manufacturers should be prevented from giving their
workpeople less than a certain amount. What he said
was, that he would prefer a law for a minimum of wages,
unjust and absurd as it might be, to a law for a maximum
of hours. Another of his correspondents asked him, how he
could say that toil was the lot of man, and at the same time
advocate the abolition of slavery. He spoke only of
voluntary toil; all that he required was that men should
not he compelled to work, or prevented from working.
The report was then received, and agreed to.
LUNATIC ASYLUMS—IRELAND.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
The Duke of WELLINGTON gave notice that on
Tuesday next he would move that the House, at its
ring do adjourn to the 16th April.
IRELAND—THE STATE TRIALS.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that in pre-
senting the petition, of which he had given notice for
to-morrow, he would not offer any other observations,
or raise any discussion on the state of Ireland. He was
induced to take this course for two reasons. The first
was, that he was anxious to know what was the Govern-
ment plan relating to the municipal and electoral franchise,
on which subject they expressed their intention to
bring in a Bill. He had thought that this plan would be
submitted that evening in the other House of Parliament;
but in consequence of the state of public business there,
it was not likely it would be brought forward that night.
Lord BROUGHAM—The state of public business
there is, that there is no House.—(Laughter.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—That was one
reason, but another and much more serious reason for
his coming to the decision which he had was, that the pe-
tition alluded to the administration of justice in Ireland
upon which he certainly would feel himself called on to
make some observations. It would be quite impossible
for him to do so without adverting to the recent trials
which had taken place in Dublin. There was SPIRIT of the PUBLIC JOURNALS,
every reason to suppose that some proceedings
connected with those trials would come before the FROM THE DAILY PAPERS OF YESTERDAY.
House in its judicial capacity. Therefore, to cis-
GLOBE.—We are glad that farther interference with
cuss the question at the present time would be
adult labour is not carried by a coup de main; and that
highly improper, because his Noble and Learned Parliament and the public are allowed some interval to
Friends on either side of the House would be quite "look before they leap." There are two points of view,
disabled from offering any opinion on the subject. He
a party and a. puga Wblic one—from which the subject may
would therefore present the petition to-morrow, without be rey
rded. e have refused to place ourselves at the
offering any observations on it, but would give notice point of view, though we see as clearly as the
Party
that he would call the attention of the House to the pe-
Times the chance of Opposition advantage from making
tition immediately after Easter, and would probably this question the occasion for detaching the wavering
or malcontent section of the Ministerialists. Our versa-
move that it be referred to a Select Committee.
Lord BROUGHAM could not help expressing his tile Contemporary expresses this with some naivete; and
concurrence with his Noble Friend, as to what he consi- indicates that he has a month's mind to strike in with
dered his duty upon that important subject, and he such a combined movement. He exclaims, "Let it be
(Lord Brougham) could not but consider that the looked on as a Ministerial question. Ministers make it
same principle would apply to the motion of which one. Can there be a question more important and
notice had been given by the Noble Marquis near him more worthy to divide the House ? At present there is
(Lansdowne). There was one of two courses open no rallying point in the House—no one respectable
to his Noble Friend. He could adopt the course taken standard to assemble round. Why not gather
by the Noble Marquis (Clanricarde), and postpone
into one all those who are not ashamed of
his motion, which he (Lord Brougham) thought wo
the principle of protecting the labourer ?" Certainly
be the better way ; or he could take the other course of here is a great temptation" the easy virtue of the
having it most distinctly understood, that there was not Times jumps at it. The Times is tired of the pre-
one word to be introduced into the discussion to-morrow " small blaine to it," as Paddy
sent Ministry ;
which could in any way affect the pending law procee - would say. So is Young England ; those young (or
ings, or relative to the present aspect of affairs in Ire-
ci-devant young) gentlemen occupy a place in their own
land,
opinion which, at present, they occupy nowhere else.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE entirely concurred They are the natural and inevitable malcontents of the
in the propriety of not entering into a general discus-
present party in power ; and ready to swell any defec-
tion "pour avoir de la consideration." They fight, or
Sion on the state of Ireland ; but he could not agree
rather stand under arms, " under the cold shade of
as to the expediency of putting off his motion with
respect to the challenging of jurors. In answer Peel," and have lost hope of their " exquisite notions"
to a question which had been put to him (the Mar-
flourishing, unless in a new and " bright field." It
quis of Lansdowne) in that House , when he had
may suit party purposes to offer this field to these inte-
given this notice of motion, he had stated his inten- resting and select combatants ; but we cannot think
"All the Crotchets" an acquisition, so much as a nui-
tion was not at all to interfere with any proceedings
sauce, to any party. These gentlemen .are so fine, that
that had taken place in the late State trials, but to have a
they are always shooting over everybddy's headso.
prospective inquiry as to the course to be taken by the
They are always aiming at something, which is to do
Government fur the future in Ireland with respect to the
something no one else ever dreamed of. We are to"keep
challenging of jurors. His motion was grounded
solely upon the expediency of making known the in- the holidays of the Church," or restore the monastic
orders, or liberate Don Carlos, or send an ambassador to
structions given by the Government to the officers of the
Crown in Ireland for their future guidance. He should, the Pope—in short, we are to retrograde, as far as possi-
ble, from all that three centuries have been doing. It is
therefore, allow his motion to remain, on the under-
a curious historical and political theory which these
standing that there should be no reference to the
conduct of the Government in the late trials.
gentlemen would seem to have imbibed. One of their
•
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the result of kindred geniuses, of a clerical cut, not long back, in
the motion of the Noble Marquis would be, that their the British Critic, declared that English history
Lordships would be informed that the course which had stopped, at the end of the seventeenth century—that no
f
been adopted by the present Attorney-General had been farther development of the national mind or spirit was
precisely the same which had been adopted by his pre-
to be looked for in the eighteenth. Forsooth, priestly
decessors, and he had no doubt but that such a statement ascendancy came decidedly to an end in the former pe-
would be satisfactory to the Noble Marquis. rind ; and of course the progress of empire, science, and
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was confirmed in his industry, could deserve no notice afterwards. Ac-
resolution of bringing forward his motion to-morrow by innovators backwards, it is our
what had just fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord cording to these
supposed progress which has planted us where we are.
The whole tendency of the age is towards over-exer-
on the Woolsack. Nothing could be more beneficial to
tion, and overproduction. People require to be checked
the Government, or give greater satisfaction to the
country, than the announcement that such was the inten- in the excess of their eagerness to better their condi-
tion of the Government as to the challenging of jurors.
t
Lord BROUGHAM would only add, that if his Noble trial heresy of laissez faire. And here the Retro-
grades have really distinguished support amongst writers
precluded from giving his opinion on the whole sub-
Friend thought that he (Lord Brougham) was to be
and thinkers ; though it always appears to us that
ject, if it should be submitted to their Lordships,
such reasoners do not put the saddle on the right horse.
he would find he was mistaken. If an Noble When a writer quarrels with the whole tendency,
Lord, in the course of the discussion,y should
theoretical and practical, of the age he lives in, it is
allude at all to the conduct of the Government in the a fair question—What are you driving at ? What is
late prosecution, or to the conduct of the Court before }'our ideal of social economy ?If he says—lt is not
which the cause was tried, he should feel it to be his my business to tell you--I am sufficiently occupied in
duty to give his clear opinion upon the subject. If that uncovering the social sore places which you cannot deny
subject exist—we reply : That answer might perhaps be al-
subject were once gone into it would be impossible fur
lowed to pass, if you did not indicate some theory of
any one to say where the debate would end.
your of own by your mode of criticising others—if you
Lord WHARNCLIFFE was understood to say that
there would be no objection to the production of the did not assume that certain philosophical and political
papers.
aberrations were the causes of certain social disorders—
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that his motion that at some former period(unspecified) things were better,
would not go to the inculpation of the Court before because men acted on better principles—at some former
which the late trials had taken place. period men were more guided and governed ; and
Lord CAMPBELL understood that it was agreed prospered more accordingly. Now, we demur to this
that during the discussion there should be no allusion to assumption of the cause of existing evils, as residing
the late trials, because that subject would be brought in the too great laxity and independence in the rela-
tions between man and man. We deny that the con-
judicially before their Lordships by writ of error. His
flexion existing in former ages between superiors and
own opinion was that the discussion could not be en-
interests of the latter ; and
tered on with advantage. There would be great difficulty i
inferiors was more in the
in separatingthe legal from the constitutional question. we do not believe that a total revolution in the pre-
It was much more expedient, in his opinion, that even valent tendencies in this respect is possible or desirable.
now they should no further refer to the more difficult And we
and delicate question which must, from what he had factories deny, above all, the justice of attacking the
as the worst example of present ill. Indeed,
heard, sooner or later come before them. Let it the best disproof of this is, that people go thither from
not, howeier, be imagined that because he (Lord the country, and won't go back. The Dorsetshire
Campbell) and others abstained from giving any opinions philanthropists may find the pressure on labour nearer
upon the subject now or to-morrow that they admitted ome. • Let them single out the first hedger or ditcher,
,
eking out his pittance by piece-work. Let them exa-
the recent proceedings to be constitutional, er that they
mine if that man does not endure harder toil than fac-
in any way sanctione the conduct of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. tory operatives—endure it voluntarily—as voluntarily
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL. as can be said of a man working for scant bread for
himself and children. There is no "factory system"
On the motion that the report on this Bill be
there. There are
.general causes of pressure, periodically
brought up,
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he must take that aggravated,
on individual labour everywhere. Unless
that pressure is worst in the factories ; unless the
opportunity of strongly expressing his dissent from the " factory system " dictates the laws (instead of suffer-
principle of this Bill, and also from the grounds on ing the common necessities) ,of labour—unless it can
which it had been proposed. He did not know why the be shown—not that the competition is severe—we all
discussion of such a Bill should be left solely to the know that—but that its severity is owing to too wide
Noble and Learned Lords in that House ; and having a field being left open by law to industry—instead
attentively listened to every word which had been uttered of being owing to too narrow a field being left open for
on the second reading—and he thought he was about its returns—unless existing evils can be traced to the
the only Member of the House that had done so—he must
factories as their source and birth-place, we must con-
say that never was Bill brought forward with so little tinue to think, as we think now, that the whole agita-
title to their support. Why, the only ground on which tion against them is a farce. And we must protest very
it was supported was the not very creditable one that seriously against Lord Ashley paying himself the linde-
n better Bill would not be brought forward, inasmuch served compliment of imagining that the mantle of "Mr.
as A.:would be opposed by the country practitioners. Cade" (commonly called Jack Cade) has fallen on him.
He would say that he thought the House of Commons Mr. Cade was an Irishman, and a Parliamentary Re-
had been very much wronged on this subject. Let him former, and would have been sent to Kilmainham, if the
call their Lordships' attention to what was the plain ecclesiastical statesmen of that age had not found shorter.
state of the ease. In the House of Commons, previous ways of dealing with him. Mr. Cade was a decided Laissez-
to the division. Sir James Graham, after stating all the faire man, more likely to have been an Anti-Corn-law,
authorities for the abolition of these Courts, Leaguer than a single-string performer in the Short
possible on the subject, wound and stating his own opinion as strongly as Time strain. It appears from Mr. Cade's memorials
speech by saying, "up a most effective to the King, that his views were partly directed to-
Uton principle, then, I cannot yield wards reform of the game-laws—" Simple people (he
to the opposition to this Bill. With all deference I must says) that use not hunting are greatly oppressed
say that if the House shall think proper to reject this by indictments "—partly to reform in Parliament:—
Bill, I cannot offer any measure likely to be more accept- " People of Kent not suffered to have free election of
able in its place." Sir Robert Peel, also, at the conclu- their knights of the shire, but letters haye been sent to
sion of the debate, said the Government were aware the great rulers, forcing them to choose other per-
by introducing this measure, they were exposing them-
sons than the Commons wished." It appears from the
selves to the opposition of their friends, but they would
following heads of grievance, that Mr. Cade was the
not endeavour to purchase a continuance of their sup- decided opponent of the Statute of Labourers, which the
port by shrinking from the discharge of what they con- Morning Post considers the great precedent for " pro-
sidered their duty. On the division the numbers were testing labour :—" That all the extortions used daily
186 to 84, a much larger majority, in proportion to the among the common people be laid down ; that is, the
Members present, than any which the present " strong "
Government had had since they first came into office. green wax so falsely used to the perpetual destruction of
the commons of Kent ;also the King's Bench so greeve-
Now, what became 'of all that courage and determination ful to the shire of Kent ; also the taking of wheat and
not to shrink from their duty? Why, the Bill was re-
ferred to a Select Committee, and so far from being re- other grains, beef, mutton, and all other victuals, which
cognised and adopted by the House of Commons, it was is importable to the said commons ; also the statute of
reported by that Select Committee on the 28th of labourers, &c. &c." We are not profound enough in
May, and from that period to the end of the local and general research to trace the exact sense of
session no steps were taken on the subject. He thought some of the above items • but viewing Mr. Cade's opi-
therefore, it was hard upon that House to call upon it to Mons with the respect Parliament now views them, we
pass the Bill which was admitted by all to be should suggest to both Houses whether the present corn-
the means of perpetuating very great evils ; i laws may not come within the meaning of " taking"
kept up the diocesan courts and perpetuated courts .
t from the commonalty "of wheat and other grains"—
that had not business to sustain them, which is importable to the said commons." The
Under all these circumstances, he thought the country
words, doubtless' were used in another sense at the time ;
when it judged of this Bill, would believe that the Go- but
it is the property of great men's utterances to ac-
enlarged scope in the lapse of ages.
vernment had pursued a course of yielding to the most quire an
humiliating necessity to which a " strong ' Government STANDARD.—Our readers will have seen by the
was ever driven. report of last night's proceedings in the House of Com-
Lord WHARNCLTFFE said that he had no objec-
mons, that the Factory question is postponed. Sir
tion to take his share of the respoosibility of bringing in James Graham will to-morrow night withdraw the
this measure. He admitted that the Government did Bill now before Parliament, introduce a new
Bill at the same, tune, and take the di -
before bring in a Bill that went much further than
carrion onthis second Bill as soon as possible after
'
the present one. They found that there was a strong
opinion respecting the Bill, not only in the House the recess. Lord Ashley assents to this arrange-
of Commons, but elsewhere, not only on the part of
ment, reserving
to himself the right to introduce a
practitioners, but of the public in general. He was quite short-time Bill, independent of the Government
ready to take any blame for the part he had hail in measure. In one view this arrangement is satisfactory,
bringing in the Bill. for the great question in issue will thus be distinctly dis-
Lord COTTENHAM said the question was nototherwise we must lament that the postpone-
cussed,
little of accommodation,
whether the Government had yielded to pressure or not, ni takes place with prospect
but whether it had acted properly. The question who_ thoughent • hperfect certainty that, sooner or later, the
ther it would be inconvenient for parties to come to ten hours'tli aitation will be carried. We are weary of
London to transact their business had been a matter of the subject, and so, no doubt, are our readers; but
duty requires often that we submit to
inquiry ever since the year 1832, and every report
some in order to arrive at truth and to do justice,
of the Commissioners had stated that the advantages of
all of
investigating
as
removing the courts to London would far outweigh any
inconvenience that would be occasioned by making long and complicated accounts. Such is
in the matter before us ; for not only are the
In answer to a question from Lord Beouailasr,
parties come to London to attend the courts. the case
circumstances perplexing in themselves., but every day,
,
brim s fo
as to the standing to be required in a barrister, in order g rth some new fallacy, or some new scheme
of accommodation, the more to entangle our judg-
to be qualified to sit as a judge in the court,
The LORD CHANCELLOR saw no reason why five merit. This morning's fallacy is the argument of
years should not be a sufficient qualification. He had
the Morning Chronicle against the competency of
the Factory Commissioners as witnesses in the case.
no objection to make the required alteration. ,
en It is known that the opinions of the Factory Corn-
The question that the report be received was tn
about to be put, upon which missioners, men selected for their intelligence and
Lord BROUGHAM rose, and said he wished to saoe•acity, and officers of the Government, which opposes
correct a misapprehension which had arisen out of what
Lord Ashley, are all favourable to a considerable limi-
he had stated the other night, upon the presentation of tation of the hours of labour. And accordingly the
a petition from certain females in Scotland. He had Morning Chronicle finds it necessary Co impeach their
received several letters from' ersons in the count
authority :—"lt is the more necessary. to insist upon
ry,
and onerd'"ifitol, "'that- ,- .p •fi2":•truer- Ititrght—'nut impropriety
the of rest* the whole cafe uporthe,dicta
to attempt to preTent th• labo classes of the Factory Commissioners, because not only is
wisw

Lord MONTEAGLE moved for a return of the cor-
respondence between the Government and the Inspectors
of District Lunatic Asylums, on the subject of the
treatment of lunatics in asylums in Leland. In
Ireland lunatics were not subject to the supervision of
any Government agents, and he thought there should
be some provision made from the estimates of the year
to effect this purpose.
The motion was agreed to without opposition.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, March 28.
There being but thirty-four Members present al
four o'clo.ek, the SPIJAKER adjourned the House till
to-morrow.