The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

had sheltered themselves from that competition, which shown by the number of charitable institutions which
was augmented in consequence of the laws which they _existed in that county. If the Hon. Member for
had passed to protect themselves from it. With regard Durham should ever visit the eastern district of Suffolk,
toothe -number of labourers in Suffolk, he would ask he believed his opinion on this subject would undergo
n. Gentlemen connected with that county to look at an entire change.—(Hear, hear.) Although the Hon.
the
returns which had lately ben laid on the table of Member for Manchester had fairly stated the number of
that House. It appeared from those returns that in tires, he had not fairly stated the causes to which they
that county alone 39,489 persons were relieved during were attributable.—(Hear,-hear.)
the quarter ending 1843, from the poor-rates. It ap- Mr. BRIGHT said he had not intended to bring any
Peered that the number of paupers was 13 per cent. of the special charge against the landlords of Suffolk espe-
whole population of the county, that in Sussex the cially. He believed his charge applied to those of the
number of paupers was fourteen per cent. of the whole whole country.—(Hear, hear.)
Population. Here was another proof that the popula- , Mr. VILLIERS said, he thought the Right Hon.
en was greater than the employment that could be Gentleman ought to regret the tone in which he had
Forded, It appeared from the late census, which was refused to accede to the motion, seeing that the Noble
made up to 1841, that the increase in the population, Lord (Henniker) had admitted that he went to him
during the last tot years, had been something more than for the purpose of urging upon him the necessity
fourteen per cent., and there was reason to believe that of adopting some steps for the suppression
the increase of births over deaths was as great in Suffolk of the fires.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Righ
as in any other county. Now, how great a portion of , Hon. Gentleman had commenced by saying that it would
fourteen per cent. had Stiff )1k maintained on its own ' not become him to impute motives ; he wished he had
!oil? Not more than six per cent. Only six per cent. not insinuated one. Why the Right Hon. Baronet had
had remained to increase the population of the county, , introduced his measure for the alteration of the poor-law
and the rest were, by the necessity of the case, driven , solely in consequence of the agitation on the subject. If
to seek employment elsewhere. In the purely agri- he mistook not, the Right Hon. Baronet said that he had
cultural counties they had retained on their I done it unwillingly. Why did he not address the same
births over deaths us the population of those counties for Manchester, to those Hon. Gentlemen who sat behind
for the last ten years. But where lead the surplus found him, when they urged on the question of the repeal of
an. asylum ? The return; would show ; for in Mon- the poor-law ?,—(Cheers.) There was not a sentence of
Mouthshire the population had increased 36 per cent., his Honourable Friend's speech that was half so
though the number of births over deaths, was 14 per inflammatory, or half so violent as the speeches which
cent., or the same as that of the agricultural counties. he had heard made in that House on the subject of the
In Lancashire the increase was 24 per cent. In Durham. poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Why did the Right Hon.
where the mines were numerous, the increase was 27 per Baronet reserve his attack fur the Hon. Member for
cent. In Staffordshire, 24 per cent. In Warwickshire, Manchester? Why, it was because, as had been just
Where the great manufacturing town of Birmingham observed by his Hon. Friend the Member for Durham,
Was, 19 per cent. ; and in the West Riding of Yorkshire, there was a peculiar sensitiveness on the subject, because
Where the linen and worsted trades were carried on, the majority of that House were interested in keeping
18 per cent. Thus it would be seen that the manufac- up an artificial price for the fruits of the soil.—(Cheers.)
taring districts had absorbed the surplus of the It was not the free-traders who were to blame, because
Population which the agricultural counties were unable the question of the corn-laws was introduced whenever
to employ. The effect of restrictions on trade was any question was raised as to the condition of the poor.
such as to make the natural source of employment less It was the landowners themselves who always made the
than it would otherwise be, and even to make the culti- condition of the poor the excuse for maintaining the
Yation of the soil less efficient than it would be if trade corn-laws, they said the laws were to be maintained be-
Were unrestricted. They might fail in their attempts to cause they were for the benefit of the agricultural
free the industry of the labourers, but the increase of the labourer. The condition of the poor was always
population would at length force them to do that which pleaded as the excuse for maintaining these laws, and
they might have it in their power to yield to the wishes now that the whole country was alarmed in consequence
of a large portion of their countrymen. He believed of the incendiarism prevalent in these districts,
that that House was accountable for the crimes that were where the condition of the agricultural poor was known
Wring place in Suffolk, Sussex, Norfolk, and Cam- to be so miserable, surely a motion for inquiring into
bridgeshire, and that this state of things arose their condition was not ill-placed. The Hon. Gentle-
from their own vicious legislation, and would man who represented the county of Suffolk stated that
continue till their return to sound principles, they had not brought the condition of the poor of that
They forgot that property bad any duties.—(Hear.) county before the House, because they had asked the
They considered that they had nothing to do but to put Right Hon. Baronet on the subject, and had confidence
their rents in their pockets. Quod tuum tene seemed to • in him. But if the House and the country wanted to
be their motto, and those who were under them were know the cause of the distress—the distress was not
helpless because they were poor, and theyhad no political caused by the new Poor-law—it had been going on for
power, beceause the landlords usurped it themselves. He the last twenty years. As far back as 1824, they had
had seen, in one newspaper, ninety-eight advertisements had evidence of the deteriorated condition of the people.
for the sale of farming stock at one time. One would He had found letters in the Times, describing the mise-
lay that the landowners suffered by this, but in rable condition of the agricultural population in the
consequence of another law, that was just less counties of Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex, written before
bad than the one which he was condemning, the new Poor-law was enacted. He would read to the
the landlord seized upon everything when one of his House a letter which appeared in the Times in the year
tenants failed, and left nothing for the wheelwright and 1830, signed " A Labourer."—(The Hon. Gentlemen
grocer, to whom he might be indebted.—(Loud cries of here read extracts from the letter referred to, in which
u Hear, hear.") Then, had they nothing to answer for the writer represented the condition of the labouring
the mode in which they kept game? A Noble Lord, a population as being miserable in the extreme. Their
relation of the Hon. Member for Suffolk, quoted the wages were low, and be attributed that circumstance
opinion of Mr. Neave, who said that the farmers justly to the operation of the old law, under which
zomplained of the enormous quantity of game, by which the farmers paid their labourers half wages, and sent
their crops were quite eaten up. That these deprived them to the parish to maker up the difference.
them of more food than would keep the poor of the The writer then went on to state, that he heard that a
Parish; and he instanced one farm of 200 acres, on which law had been passed to keep up the price of corn, for the
2,000 rabbits had been killed, and he calculated that good of the proprietors of land ; and he suggested the
these destroyed more than 300 sheep would in the same propriety of passing a law compelling the farmer to pay
time. It was necessary that those things should his labourer the value of three pecks of flour a week as
he stated. If they were true, it was a die- wages.) That letter had been made the subject of a
pace to the landowners. If it were untrue leading article in the Times in 1830. It was quite evi-
-4e should be glad of it, and.he would not state it again, dent that the new poor-law was not an adequate cause to
,either there or elsewhere. A rural pollee was kept up account f©r the distress. The Times was quite right in
by the gentry to watch game, and to prevent poaching. describing the people as in great distress ; and they had
Look to what had taken place on the estate of the Noble been as much distressed under the old law as they were
Lord the Member for North Lancashire. A gamekeeper under the new one. There had been something for the
had been killed, for which one person was hanged, and last twenty years continually deteriorating the condition
four others were in the Penitentiary, or on their way to of the people of this country ; and that was, that during
the penal settlements. Thus six families were deprived the whole of that period the population had been in-
of their husbands and fathers for the purpose of main- creasing, the demand for employment had been dimi-
taining those puerile and childish sports which should nishing, and the price of food had been rising. In 1824,
be condemned in a country so densely populated as this. a clergyman, who had given evidence before a Commit-
A. circumstance of a similar nature occurred on the tee of that House, stated that the condition of the people
estate of the Marquis of Normanby, and also in the was deteriorating, that their wages were low, and that
county of Surrey and in Coventry. In Scotland, the they were becoming pauperised. If ever there was an
farmers complained of this system as destructive of their occasion when inquiry into the condition of the poor
farins, and demoralising to the minds of themselves and was called for, it was at the present moment. The Hon.
their labourers. Misery, from suffering, was at the bot- Members for Suffolk said the people were well off ; at
t2l:a of the outrages which had taken place, and though the same time it could not be denied that these incen-
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite might seem to deny it, he diary fires had occurred. The insurance-offices, it was
believed in his conscience that they knew it to be case, stated. had paid four times as much as they had received
e had yesterday travelled from Gravesend to Canter- in those counties ; and an idea was prevalent among the
proprietors of those offices, that the parties ;themselves
th4l7, and from thence to town, and no person could see
the country through which he travelled without coming had in many instances destroyed the property. Seeing
the conclusion that the labouring population of the these various contradictory statements, the Government
-"Mitre, was grossly ignorant., and upon them rested the ought to make inquiry. It was most desirable to ascer-
Tesponsibility. The consequence was, that their toil taro the cause of the distress, and his Hon. Friend the
Was requited by a gaol, as poachers, or by the work- Member for Manchester had done his duty in bringing
house, as paupers. They said that this law was passed it before the House. A more proper or a more discreet
to protect native industry. He asserted it was motion could not be made, and he should certainly vote
Passed to protect native idleness, and to impoverish in favour of it.
native industry. The Hon. Member for West Suffolk Sir J. TYRRELL thought the speeches of the Hon.
made a speech, in which he believed he said that severer Members for Manchester and Durham were calculated
Punishments ought to be established in order to repress to excite the lower orders, and possessed all the charac-
the crime of burning. A return lately presented to the teristics of incendiary speeches.
Rouse of the number of persons convicted and punished Mr. VILLIERS rose to order. He wished to know
for the crime of arson 'for some years past, showed that what the Right Hon. Baronet meant by " incendiary
from 1831 to 1836 the committals were 493, the convic- speeches?"
tions 119, and the executions .58. Was it not a horrible Sir J. TYRRELL had said that, to his humble up-
state of things which produced the destruction of so prehension, the character of the speeches of the Hon.
much property, and then ended it—but it did Member for Durham and the Hon. Member for Man-
te_sr end it—by the execution of fifty-eight of chester possessed all the characteristics of. incendiary
71.1 fellow-men ? He thought it was one of the speeches.—(Hear, hear.) If their object had been to
Proudest boasts of the late Government, that they had discourage incendiary fires, he must say that speeches
th 'gated the terms of the criminal code, and he trusted less calculated to attain such an object he had never
preo Present Government would follow their example. heard. It must be that he was a person of weak COM-
h in 1838 to 1843, during which time there was no prehension, for they had heard from high authority that
s4anging for burnings, the number of committals was Persons representing the agricultural districts were not
4, and the number of convictions 117, thus showing that persons of very acute perception, and that must be some
the*lls number of convictions was greater in proportion to apology for him.—(Cheers and laughter.) The fact
number of committals, than when the punishment was, this debate was an adjourned corn-law debate, and
was capital, because the juries were not desirous to whenever he had entered the House of late he had
livid when they knew that death was the penalty. heard little else. These unfortunate fires had now
;livid when
might be anxious to return to the system of ceased; and if the speeches were incendiary
hanging, in order to put down this system, the feeling speeches, and the fires should break out again,
roust beengendered by apprehension. The landlords lived they would see to whose ability they might attri-
in a state of great diffiulty; they kept watchers upon bute them.—(A laugh.) Much had been said of the
nearly every farm ; being apprehensive of these dis- want of employment in the manufacturing districts. He
asters, they became timid, and there was nothing so attributed much of that to the character of the opposi-
near timidity as cowardice. Hanging would have no tion to the corn-laws which had been put forward by
effect in suppressing incendiarism. To suppose that the late Government, and the low farmers and unin-
such a state of things was to be put dowa only by the formed people had not hitherto had such confidence in
halter was absurd in the extreme. They knew that the her Majesty's present Ministers on the subject of the
Population was in a hopeless, miserable, and despairing corn-laws—(Opposition cheers)—as to induce them to
s_ondition, and yet they had allowed the session to pass give increased employment. (Renewed Opposition
by, and not one of them had proclaimed the calamities cheers.) He always read the Money and City article,
which had afflicted their own districts ; but they now and sometimes not without disgust, for whenever any
taunted them, which was inimical to the interests proposition was brought forward for a railroad, however
of those districts. Not one of their greatest flatterers in miserable the prospect of traffic might be, there was
their own counties would refuse to acknowledge that plenty of capital to support it. But those capitalists
they had on all occasions told the labourers that they would not invest one farthing in the cultivation of the
Were not to blame the farmers for their low wages, but soil. The Hon. Member for Durham had accused him
the system which unhappily prevails in this country.— of a cruel disposition, because he had presented a peti-
(Hear, hear.)—They need not tell the farmers to rely Lion for a more severe punishment for the crime of incene
Feel)
the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. diarism. In the only case inwhich a person advanced in years
4-eel), made in a tone of triumph which he did not as- had confessed to the crime of incendiarism, he had
*tune when he expected to be in a minority, that the stated that he had been induced to set the property on
corn-law was to be continued for ever ; but they should fire in order to be transported. Now, the Hon. Member
teach them to rely upon that which all men had relied for Durham could not produce an instance in which a
Upon, who had succeeded best in every decription of la- person had committed incendiarism for the purpose of
hour—whether agricultural or manufacturing. There being hung.—(Loud laughter.) It had been his misfor-
Were Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who as tune to present a petition praying for increased punish-
Lcileh disapproved of such conduct as he (Mr. Bright) did. meat for the crime of incendiarism, but he did not say
They had protected the labourers into miserable that he wished to have that crime punished capitally.
hovels, gaols, and workhouses. The population was con- Now, the farmers would, he thought, have greater con-
stantly increasing, and they had no work for them ; the fidence in the Government since their recent declaration,
manufacturing districts were continually drawing off a and increased employment of labour would be the conse-
Portion of the population, which would otherwise in- quence, more particularly after they had witnessed the
crease the existing calamity. He asked them now to do expiring effort of the Anti-Corn-law League a few
*very small thing, in order to see whether farming nights since.
could not be carried on prosperously as well as other The House then divided, when there appeared—
trades. He had only yesterday read the life of For going into a Committee of Supply 130
William Caxton, the first English printer. It ap- For Mr. Gibson's amendment
Peered from that that an ordinance was passed in Majority
1441, in which the landlords of that time stated Upon entering the gallery we 'found the House in
that the people engaged in husbandry in this coun- Committee, and
try were greatly damaged by the reason of the bring- Mr. WYSE moving on the grant of Education (Ire-
ing of eorn beyond the seas to keep down the price land), " That a dutiful address be presented to her Ma-
-41 this country. Here were their ancestors, of jesty, humbly representing to her Majesty the import-
four hundred years ago—men who had no Adam since of due provision being made for the University edu-
ith to go to—men who received no such cation of her Roman Catholic subjects of Ireland, espe-
Les, sons as had been given to Honourable Gen- daily of such as are intended for the priesthood, and
t'e,Man opposite, session after session, by those the inadequacy of the means and system now existing
Whom they had placed in power, using precisely
.the for the attainment of such object ; and further praying
Language common in the present day. They had denied, her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give
,uecause they had not the power to give, protection to directions, by an enlargement and improvement of exist-
Qbourers and manufacturers; and then, with a vast deal ing arrangements, either by opening the emoluments and
of Paint on the panels of their coaches, they came down honours as well as studies of the University of Dnblin to
to the 'louse to legislate for themselves. The worst Roman Catholics as well as Protestants, and raising the
thing he wished them was, that when that retribution College of Maynooth to the dignity of a theological
came upon the landlords of this country, which must faculty of the said university, or by founding and main-
?ome on such legislation, it might please Heaven to taming a Roman Catholic university, with equal rank,
bless them with greater mercy than they had shown to endowments, and privileges with those of the University
the labourers of this country. of Dublin, or by such other means as her Majesty in her
Col. RUsHBROOKE said the Hon. Gentleman had wisdom and benevolence may deem fit, adequately to
accused him of advocating the infliction of the punish- supply the deficiencies now complained of, and, as far as
went of death for this crime. He certainly understood may be, effectually provide for the future moral and in-
the language of the petition which he had presented on tellectual wants of the Roman Catholic inhabitants ;
that subject held it best that in a crime of this na- thus promoting the advancement and happiness,
tune capital punishment should be inflicted in extreme not of Roman Catholics only, but of all
eases- The Hon. Gentleman had charged him with classes and persuasions of the Irish people."
stating that there was no destitution whatever in the He would wish to exclude all partisan and political con-
county with which he was connected. He had spoken siderations in the consideration of this question. An
uly of his own neighbourhood ; what might be the case impression had gone abroad, that he (Mr. Wyse) had,
in other districts he would not pretend to say. on a previous occasion, endeavoured to disparage the
Mr. BRAMSTONE said, the lion. Gentleman had utility and importance of the Dublin University. No-
"id that there would be no difficulty in obtaining con- thing could be further from his intention. He had been
victioes in these cases. If a Commission were issued in educated himself there, and entertained the most devoted
the tone and temper of, the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen affection for the institution. He had no reason to com-
crosite, they would have a general conflagration, instead plain of any unjust interference of the Dublin University
a decrease in the number of fires. It was stated by with the religion of its pupils. During his time there
ix- Baron Parke, in his charge to the grand jury, that he never had observed it, and he believed that, as far
agricultural
majority of, the fires were not committed by as their rules and regulations permitted, nothing could
4r:cultural labourers in distress, but by girls and boys be more tolerant. But, he did not think that the rules
i`rieude,r_t.en years of age. Three children were to be of that University were made in a spirit of toleration,
wnose respective ages were 8,9, and 10 ; and it and that it could be made much more beneficial to the
appeared that, instead of being in a distressed condition, Catholic community than it was at present.—(Hear,
tinfey were comfortably with their masters and hear.) Nor were the difficulties in making it so great
iVrtresse.s. He, for one, beggtd to thank the Right as were generally supposed. It was no longer contended
,),or?ientleman for refusing to grant Commission. that education was not necessary to enable men to
t° the
lIENNIKER said it had been his duty be amPIY govern and obey properly.; and subjects of every
than one
Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) on more
th had a •
governmentin right to claim from. it
ne occasion on this subject, and he begged to bear instruction,
testimonyhis to his earnest at least the elementary princi-
causesendeavours to ascertain the pies of education. The elementary education of
of .this incendiarism--(Hear, hear.) The Hon. the people had engaged successive Governments, and he
e
for Manchester formerly joined in the meed of must say that they had promoted it by every means in
Praise
their paid to the landlords and farmers of Suffolk, for their power. He had called upon the Government of
That they
conduct to the working classes-- (Hear, hear.) that day to throw open the University to Catholics, or
tercetsty Nere no less anxious now to promote the in- Ito help to establish a Catholic University by its side.
he working classes than in former times, was He did this while he had the honour to be a Member of