The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

1844

- .
and therefore how was a new Parliament to he held toed WHATINCLIFFE—Oh, dear. Now, gden.
responsible for the declarations made in a previous The Martinis of NORMANBY—" The first detachment
one ?—( Hear, hear.) In seven years after the declaration under the liev. Dean having halted, expressed tin `ir
thanks
of the union with Scotland, the Duke of Argyle waited in per- in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three' 4:-.
son upon her Majesty, and said that to such an extent had dis- cheers fur him, mot then, deploying round, took up the 17-IT,e.
coot ent now existed, that the nation must consider the uulon assigned to there." Now he asked Noble Lords was n: at thin
dissolved. He (the Earl of Normanby) thought that One best military array ? Was it not the chnrch militant in a most T 7
ietachmanekn:
way to repress the agitation—which was so much deplored by creditable poeitions arid diet the Government p
ta prosecute ISsve
their Lordships—was to apply a remedy to the grievances of the Waring ?—( Cheers.) The
country. There might be such a thing as persevering attempts Ireland, at the time of hirPele:72ti)be
onl, 11ord, h
a.drepetßteedSteheeredecrly farlot:
to create turbulence and disaffection by a denial of justice.— tions of Sir Robert Peel on assumlfse the reins of Government
( Hear, hear.) Let their Lordships go back, let them freshen —that the policy of the Govertmeent in respect to.
up their recollections, and say if they knew of no phrases used , Ireland should be of a generous and conciliatory cha-
-Meer, hear. )—no stringent me-sures suggested—no re- raster. This promise was made in 1541, and the only
medics refused which were calculated to embitter the ' generous Bill which bad been paesed was the Arms' Dill.—
feelings of the Irish and provoke them to disaffection? Why, I ( Laughter. ) With reference to that Bill, he thOu
' 5 which
the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, when) however, had occurred was calculated to revive the apprehensiod ~
he admitted, from the kindliness of his nature was incapable i were originally entertained as to the manner in which ;!- would
of a persevering effort to anoy, so as to excite—but had not Ibe executed.—( Hear, hear.) But for the presence of '".:-;
ght what
his Noble and Learned Friend, if so he might call him, un- I Gore Jones, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates woo °,'
happily used a phrase, in speaking of the Irish, which had sunk have done what the Government. which brought in the Hilt
deep into their minds? If they condemned so strongly the declared was never intended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, having
application of the word " Saxon" to the English, surely they given this notice of motion, he might be expected tot say a few
ought to recollect the application of the word " alien" to the t wordson some of the topics which had been opened in petitionie
Irish .
I presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable nom-
'Fire LORI) CHANCELLOR—WeII, but that was two I ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ire-
Parliaments back—( Greet laughter.) I land. lie could not avoid saying that he corieideeed that the
and
The Marquis of NORMAN BY--That was the best present state of the Irish Church required further iniSnirY,
defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble I that, always taking it as the first object, that that
tenet,
and Learned Lord had it in his power to make.—( Laughter.) I should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Irs ,
..
Church
Well, he must say, he thought it was too serious a subject to I the whole question should be open for the consideration of 1-,-""
jest upon, and he was sorry to be cenpelled to think that neither I liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinction's.'
two Parliaments, nor many more, perhaps, than two Parlia- I which existed between the two religions should be done away S
menss, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had ; and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland
produced.—( Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex- that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of
iiression was used—in 1f336--other phrases were used whose equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where
effect had scarcely been less injurious- It was the common there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro.,
saying, if not of the Noble Lords then en the Ministerial testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal
benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the footing.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of
Government of that day was solely kept in office by the Irish. the Union, that it was not easy to say, on
general prin-
By making this distinction, they were as effectually departing eiples, what system of church establishment would be
from the principles of the union as any repealer ever did, and the free from difficulty. By many it was considered that the re-
intention tube implied could only be that they looked upon Ireland ligion of the majority should be placed on an equal footing with
as a province, instead of an integral portion of the British em- that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with.
Aire.—( Hear, hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a out qualification forgot the relation between English and Irish
very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured interests. Whilst Ireland remained a separate kie'gdom, said,
friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholies
Smith, father of the Attorney-General for Ireland, and-of without endangering the stability of the Constitutimo itself-
whom hereafter lie should have a few words to say.--( Hear, These words were perfectly consistent with the article Pf ,the
and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, not speaking I Union, which maintained that the Established Church in
...7.res
amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from land should be united to the Established Church in Enolande
the judgment-seat, had declared that as long as England was but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as tilte
true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstaesse
last; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery So
a province, instead of a part of England—( Hear, hear)—then Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing.
her independence as a nation would he claimed by her people. There was much in all this that called for their serious atten-
Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was, tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy,
that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that
upon a system which must defeat itself—they were always the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi-
trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi- lion to he brought forward. He was borne out in this opinion
ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed. by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union.
Was that attempt made in Canada ? It was there felt that the He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the
only way to secure the affections of the people was to govern clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser
through a majority, and not through a minority. And what- viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must
ever exorbitant pretensions might have grown out of the course be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income
of proceeding adopted their, lie thought they were more than for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for'political
counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It apostacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having
had been often said that all the influence of himself and his taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there
Noble Friend behind him, in Ireland, was owing to the patron- was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap-
age being placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It , plied. But ho could not mention that body, wffich had been so
had been found necessary to place the patronage in much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise
Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those for the activity and zeal with which they had always assisted
who represented the majority of their countrymen. He would him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear,
take this opportunity of reterrins to what he had said on this hear.) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune
subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837. and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that corm-
The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people
the distributions of patronage, declaring that though Mr. arose much more from their relations with mart
'Connell ll had occasional communicatie
were ons with him, Ins appli- than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in
cations the subject of patronag fewer han those of the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, wag
almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in there a people among whom he domestic virtues were
the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. Ile more universally practised. No, it was the great struggle'
did not deny that the Government consulted Mr. O'Connell in for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them,
reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge from which all their misery arose. With respect to the ques-
of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this don of the Irish franchise, the declaration lately made by the
was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, after
him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any- the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number'
thing but a cause of regret. Such was the statement of electors in England and Scotland was 850,000 ;in Ireland•
which he made in 1837 ; and he appealed to his successors, it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they
whether-the appointments which he had made, whether in took the numbers of the Members with respect to the
the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by population, the disproportion was the same. --:(Hear.)
an efficient discharge of the various duties to beperformed.— One of the complaints of the Irish people was, that their inte-
( Hear, hear.) He had felt that the great difficulty of go- rests were neglected and the resources of their country not:
verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament
question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those
the time at which it was carried—being thirty were matters which demanded further consideration. They
years later than it should have been, It was embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people,
unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of
carried at tire sacrifice of public character ; and with respect Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran-
to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions which were chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect
utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of equality with England as respected representation. The
the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I other night he had adverted in a few words to the
think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding years, when I Landlord and Tenant Commission. Ha regretted that
was employed in another part of the world. At the same time something more satisfactory had not beet elicited by
he could not pass over those years in the presence of his Noble some of his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject.
and Gallant Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to However, there could be no doubt that the relation
his zeal in the cause of Ireland, and to his love for the Irish of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration..
people, displayed amidst difficulties from all quarters, and at It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland
a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence—
, might have looked for support.—(Cries Of " Hear, hear.") that he had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not
' One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his exist elsewhere. He did not recommend "fixity of tenure"
Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of as the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in
justice, and restore the confidence of. the people in that ad- the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what
ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion
Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm
among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in where produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of
Ireland a rare luxury.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Go- rent was 1001., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce,
vernrnent. by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great the landlord received fur rent 100/. That account was taken
blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr,
consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament. Wiggins, who had been appointed to inquire and report upon
This seemed to have some insincerity, as it was impossible to the subject. With respect to the commission of crime
believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were in Ireland, he thought that the time had passed
the view's of his Government with respect to repeal. When by when certain specific crimes committed against
a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of indi-
question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the viduals as they should be, were attributed to the religion of
newspapers.— (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late
magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis- Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been
tors had occasionally made many declarations on different sub- Catholic policemen, arid that that outrage was a part of a re-
jects—on the Catholic question, on the corn-laws—and those ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normanby) was
declarations had never been followed out; nay, the persons happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in-
who made them had been the first to act against them.— dividual who had so distinguished himself in defence of his
(Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. He would
an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa-
have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi- tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was
dente in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the not so different from that of this country, because there civilise-
Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence
their law appointments, again, they were particularly urrfor- a right thinking spirit of public opinion was being created, and
tunate. Wino was the first judge appointed ? Baron Lefroy, this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also
who, s non after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act, extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the
was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declare- medium of-the press, were closely observing the conduct of this
tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car-
passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish ried away in expressing his opinions by his partiality towards;
people were:much interested, was that of national education. Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the
Yet another judge they appointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson, wants and grievances of that country; but still he could calmly
who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifl- say, that any one who (independent of political considerations)
cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that
Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin the misery of the country was solely to be attributed to the
in the year 1837, when all those in attendance were of one misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord-
party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re- ships were prepared to go on governing through the me-
ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and
to say that circumstances induced him to believe that the(the Roman Catholics) had very little regard for the sanctity y to abide by the result of partial administration of justice, when
of an oath, and had very little hesitation in Y a prosecution was before the Courts, which vitally affected the
violating interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from
their consciences. Such a statement as that ought
to have been a lasting din ptalification for any office the jury all those belonging to the faith professed by the great
body of the people—if they were inclined to exhibit to the
under Government. If Mr. Smith did not believe what
nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the
he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party finest country—and the most peaceable at present—in a state
speech, he showed a deficiency of judgment, and discretion,
of military occupation, they would pursue the course which
and every qualification which Noble Lords should have sought had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and
in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At- reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and
torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar- affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to
quis of Normanby) must say that the unhappy man who the empire, and security to the throne, they sh odd redress the
entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar-
countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world, quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer
was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his to her Alejesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty
intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing
through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which
a gentleman to office. lie must say it was highly improper proceedings are pending before the peeper legal tribunals, feel it
for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor-
whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it was utterly tunny, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds
impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the of the jury, to record their intention to examine into the causes
bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country :
conspiracy, he only repeated now what he had stated also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, and the
in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz. restoration of confidence, this House look to the development
that he thought it the duty of Government, if they had had of the only true principles of a perfect union, by securing to her
evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecuted Majesty's subjects, of all classes arid persuasions, in all parts of
directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this thee United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights."
new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that when his Noble Friend
of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of
the English people, wino would otherwise be indifferent to the yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' House, the
resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, ho
state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con- confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap-
duct of the affair. With respect to the panel of the jury, the pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in
only answer that was given to account for the omission of the them. He at once understood the course which was being
Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the
names had been lost. Ile thought that the first object in a
such as this should have been to have impannelled a fair eewhole House, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro-
matterduced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee,
and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there charging himself and friends on the present Government with
was a total exclus on of Catholics? the commission of high and grave offences. There was no-
The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes. thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the
The Marquis of NORMANBY would ask, was not this a Noble Marquis; but what was wanting in this respect in the
question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland—did resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro-
not the opposite party appeal directly to the Protestants to duced them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis undoubtedly
in
come forward and register.? The Government ought to have had made very serious charges against the Government his
taken special care to have chosen a. jury which could not be speech. Well, he (Lord Wharncliffe) was quite ready
subject to the imputation of partiality. In support to meet them.—{Cheers.) His charges were distinctly
of his opinion, he would road to their Lord- made—he would meet him distinctly upon them. He
ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Mail. would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect
The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the
themselves into one of religion and not of politics, and that mind of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most
the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent dangerous and illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble
upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this con-
of the Tory party. With respect to the formation of the jury, s siracy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning.
therefore, he should say that it was most open to the imputa- the said there were two courses open to the Government. One
tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice of of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and
Ireland, he (tine Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to
aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to
Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the take instant and determined measures at once to put an end
idea when he was reading the Learned Jndge's charge that to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they
he was reading the speech of the Solicitor-General instead. abandoned without reason. Now he ( Lord Wharncliffe) would
He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than prore the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.—
to
fora that
it was, happily, usual to find them. adopting a ( Hear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government
very differnt tone and manner when addressing juries in the never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these
courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called meetings to gore,
on, they would wear themselves out. They
his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish saw from the first that there was danger to the
Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than peace of the country from these meetings. They thought
creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury, then, as they thought now, that the bringing of
that Learned Judge was reported to have said—" Gentlemen of
great bodies of people together, and the trying to
the jury, this is a most diabolical libel, and that is not mincing orce these people on by exciting speeches to a particular line
the matter."—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—( Cheers). They
Normanby) to think that a very different tone and manner prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings,
prevailed in the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear.) but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a
!Imre were many subjects in connexion with the state of Ireland good opportunity when their determination could successfully
to which he should have liked to have directed their Lordships' be put in force.—(Hear, hear.) The question was to prove
consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, and to the satisfaction
by the Government; but he thought it would be better, under of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that
all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were these meetines were illegal, and that they ought to be sup-
their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the
inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in meetings were for an illegal purpose. He quite agreed with
moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord-
ships and the country. There was, however, one matter the Noble Marquis, that to seek for a repeal of the union way.
not illegal in itself—to seek for that- was clearly every man's
which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo- right who might desire the change ; but the offence here was
ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was worth for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably
the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right were. of an illegal character.—(Cheers.) The. Government
lion. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert Peel), when had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner
reading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire- acting. They had been called a dosnothing Government for
land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him (Lord allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it
Normanby) the honour of complimenting him on the judg- did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they
ment he had shown inn his selections.—(Hear.) Hap- could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other hand,
pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that House, in said, now that they had interfered, " Oh, you should have let
reference to his appointments, for, on a former occasion, Noble the meetings wear themselves out." And had they done
outs
Lords had expressed their approval of them. He begged, how- and the meetings had still gone on (for wear themselves
new
it)
ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether, they would not have done, and well their opponenstts k
to upbraid
of all cleriCal candidates for honours and appointments in Ire- then these very persons would have been the first
land, the), held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, h
humility of demeanour, and quiet, unobtrusive performance of before they did anything else, was to takaet h
°a
blow, which they
the dtftles-of his sacred office ?—(Hear, hear.) In an account such measures, as would ensure success
to this agitation. But
Y and to taunt them for doing so. He said, then,nc.
which 'he had read, in a Government newspaper, of the famous had from the first determined togiveaboveall for their conduct at
meeting at-Hillsborough, it was stated, in the description he the Noble Lord
blamed themt
believe tinfirei,rahnudsaindeospst,
the Noble Marquis knew
referred to, that "in a few minutes the first detachment headed Clontarf. Why he did no
a about when he said that this by the Rev. Holt Waring, and preceded by the union jack, what he was
g was to the last. Why, at that very time Clon-
was now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intense mass fare
Dean"-- meetings. Now e
ar-
of human beings, comprising not less than twenty thousand e-a-ng!mmeeenlitns'hadabselent mitadbeeforrelroludeientgedsitxhaotr,
asletsh'eonugmhoarte
Tarasueh
men. This, the first detachment, under the Rev.
his zeal to defend his i unjustifiable that those designed to be enacted
character,
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Very like the parish priests.
.. and 3fullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most
The Marquis of NORMANBY—In .
I artisan, the Noble Lord casts a slur on the parish priests.