The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-14 00:00:00

THE SUN,

upon the doors of the towa-hall, the principal' restitution of cet ijugal rights, that persons should
churches and chapels, and to insert it in the newspapers live together whose marriage the Church eon•
that circulated in the neighbourhood, for a vote to he sidered incestuous. One anomaly in the Bill,
taken on the subject. He is then to appoint at least ten as it stood, was, that any clergyman might con-
days forward for taking the opinion of the inhabitants tract such a marriage though he might not he
on the subject. It will then require the assent of two- compelled to solemnize it between other parties. A
thirds of the rate-payers to justify the Act being put clergyman could not refuse to administer the rites of the
into operation. He trusted that the Bill, as it was now Church to parties whose marriage the Church deemed
framed, would meet the objections of his opponents. ineeituous, if the present clause were agreed to. Nay
The_ question having been put, more, the Church, both of England and Scotland, must
Colonel SIBTHORP said, although this Bill might be consider persons contracting such marriage as disquali-
considered to be a new one, as compared with the former, fled for receiving the oemmunion. By the 109th canon
he felt bound to continue his opposition to it. These it was declared that the communion should not be ad-
were not times for spending money in the way proposed, ministered to persons guilty of incest ; and by another
when it might be much better expended in providing canon, the 99th, marriages within the prohibited degrees
food and employment for the people. When they had were declared to be incestuous. One objection to the
done this, it was time enough to provide amusements and clause might be that it would introduce an anomalous
recreation of the character to be provided for by this distinction between members of the Church of England
Bill. Instead of endeavouring to afford them industrious and the members of other religious bodies. But such an
and profitable employment, he supposed they would be anomaly was as nothing compared to those in the Bill.
thinking of supplying the working classes with quoits, Another objection might be, that the amendment would
peg-tops, and foot-ball. They should first teach the induce parties contracting such marriages to become
people to read and write. What would be the use Dissenters. For his own part, he should say let such
of these libraries to' those who could not read parties become Dissenters rather than continue proleised
or write? He supposed that the Hon. Member and his members of a Church which considered them as guilty
friends would soon be thinking of introducing the of incest —(Hear.) He thought they ought to go as far as
performances of Punch for the amusement of the people. they could to relieve members of the Cnurch of England
—(Laughter.) The Bill was wholly uncalled for. There and of the Church of Scotland who had contracted such
were no petitions presented in favour of it. Instead of marriages from the effects which would follow the °p-
caning upon the unfortunate rate-payers to pay for these ration of the Bill as it stood. ,It ought not to he for-
amusements, he for one would be more disposed to put gotten that the Bill was one which would operate on the
his hand in his pocket in order to enable them to enjoy whole community. There could be no greater fallacy
them altogether free from taxation. The Hon. and than to argue that the Bill would only affect the parties
Gallant Member concluded by moving that the further who contracted these marriages.—(Rear.) It would
progress of the measure be postponed to that day six affect all those who did not wish to contract such mar-
months. riages in the altered feelings and relations it would pro-
Mr. HUME thought the Honourable and Gallant duce towards sisters-in-law. It was ou these grounds
Member could not have read this Bill, or he would that he now begged to propose the amendment of which
not have opposed the measure on the grounds he had be had given notice.—(Cheers.)
stated. The Bill did not propose to tax the people The question having been put,
for these purposes without their full consent. Ile Mr. S. WORTLEY said he would not follow his Hon.
agreed with the Honourable and Gallant Member that and Learned Friend into the argument which he bad
it would be highly improper to pass a Bill at the pre. stated so ably to the Committee. He thought his Hon.
sent time to increase the taxation of the people. If the and Learned Friend mistaken as to the legal effect of
Hon. and Gallant Member had read the Bill with atten- the Bill. With regard to the amendment, he regarded
tion, be was sure he would be as forward as any one in it as one for the extension of ecclesiastical authority.—
support of it. (Flier.) He had never dreamt that his Hon. and
Colonel SIBTHORP—Oh no. Learned Friend would propose an amendment, the effect
Mr. HUME thought that if this Bill passed the Hon. of which would be to sanction a marriage of this kind
and Gallant Member would be the first to put his hand with reference to civil purposes, and at the same time ex-
in his pocket for the purpose of advancing 200/. for vie pose the parties to the censure of the Church courts, and
establishment of one of these institutions in Lincoln. to doing penance ina white sheet. He thought his Learned
There was no part of the civilised world in which these Friend had failed to show that the clergy were not at
institutions were more wanted than in England. In the perfect liberty to exercise their discretion in the
United States there were 10,000 Such institutions, solemnization of marriages if it were not against their
What an advantage it would be for the poorer classes consciences. The whole jurisdiction of the ecclesiasti-
of this country to have these libraries to resort to, in- cal courts was for spiritual purposes; the present Act of
stead of public-houses. He hoped that the Hon. and Parliament was solely fur temporal purposes.
Gallant Member would not persevere in his opposition to The CHAIRMAN asked whether it was proposed to
this measure. divide ?
Alderman SIDNEY said there were great discrepan- Mr. R. PALMER intimated his intention to take
cies in the Bill. He did not think that these institutions the sense of the House.—(Loud cries of " Divide.")
would be as much encouraged as.the Hon. Member op- Sir R. H. INGLIS rose amid much noise and cries of
posite supposed. They had a library and museum in " Divide," and " Withdraw." He maintained that his
London which' was very little used by the people. There Hon. and Learned Friend did not propose to increase
Was no provision in the Bill for retracing their steps if the ecclesiastical authority, but merely to leave it where
the people had reason to regret the establishment of the it stood at the present moment. The allegation which
then institutions. This, though nominally a small tax had been made that the opponents of the present Bill
upon the people, would become most serious in the course wanted to sustain and extend ecclesiastical authority
of years. was not founded upon justice or fact. It might as well
Mr. HEALD thought it would be a great injustice to be called a question of free trade. In no respect was
the Right- Hon. Member for Dumfries if, after the dis- the freedom of any man affected by the present eccle-
siastical law, except so far as it represented the will of
position he had shown to improve the Bill and to render
it perfect as possible, they should object to its going God. Again, he repeated that the opponents of the
into Committee, present Bill did not seek to increase the ecclesiastical
Colonel CHATTERTON asked whether it was in. power, but merely to have it left where it was.
tended to make it applicable to Ireland? Mr. S. WORTLEY briefly explained.—(Divide.)
Mr. EWART said it did not apply to Ireland, but he After a few word, from Sir F. THESIGER, who said
understood that an Hon. Member had given notice of there was an inconsistency in the Bill with respect to
his intention to introduce it into Ireland. the jurisdiction of the civil and ecclesiastical courts,
Mr. STANFORD did not object to the principle of Mr. S. WORTLEY again briefly explained.— (Cries
the Bill; but there was a great coneusion in some of the of " Divide, divide.")
elausei between the titles of the burgesses and rate- Mr. COCKBURN said it would be a most mil.
payers. There was a great difference between taking chievous course of legislation to pursue to array the
the sense of the burgesses and the sense of the rate- ecclesiastical against the civil tribunals of the country.—
payers. The former did not amount to one-fifth of the (Hear, hear.) The former did not stand so very high at
latter. There was no provision is the present measure present in public estimation as to place them in opposi-
for the prevention of a continued agitation of this sub. lion to the civil tribunals.—(Hear, hear.) If the Bill
jest, notwithstanding diet it had been repeatedly de- was a bad one, let it be thrown out at once; but he asked
cided by the majority of the rate-payers that no such them not to introduce such a confusion in the jurispru-
institution should be established. This was a departure dente of the country as might be done by adopting the
from the principle of the former measure, which pro- proposition of' the Hon. Member for Plymouth,
posed to enact, that if the question were once decided it Mr. OSWALD was understood to support the amend-
should not be again moved for a period of three years. merit.
As far as Reading was concerned they had two literary Mr. P. WOOD said that it was observed the present
institutions, and a library containing about 3,000 or Bill did not propose to take away the jurisdiction of the
4;000 volumes, which was accessible to all upon payment ecclesiastical courts. That was a reason why the pro-
of a very small subscription. For these reasons he would Position of the Hon. Member for Plymouth, to make the
rote for the amendment, although as anxious for diffus- Bill consistent, ought to entertained. He was anxious
to see the mode of proceeding adopted in the t celesiae-
ing information amongst the people as the Hun. Member
for Dumfries. tical courts reformed, and he thought they had reason
Mr. KERSHAW supported the Bill, on the ground to complain of the Government for not having carried
that the people would derive great benefit from its adop- out those promises made a session or two ago in that
Lion. He was prepared to support it in every stage. respect. No step had been taken about those courts,
Mr. SPOONER did not consider it worth while to although it should be admitted that their practice was
divide the House On this question. The sense of the in a most unsatisfactory state.—(Hear, hear, and cries
Rouse had bern already twice declared in favour of the of " Divide.")
Principle of this Bill. Mr. FORBES supported the amendment.
Mr. FORBES said if his Hon. and Gallant Friend Mn COCKBURN said the proposed clause did not
divided the House he would feel it to be his duty to sup- relate merely to ecclesiastical causes. All the subjects
Port him. He was opposed to the principle of the Bill, of the realm contracting marriages which it was the
and he-most say that the details were must objectionable. object of the Bill to reader legitimate would, by the
Mr. WYLD was surprised that the agriculturists ghoul' proposed Clause, be liable to ecclesiastical censure on
oppose this Bill, as it was well known that wherever cantracting such marriage after the passing of the
Museums and public librariesswere established, and be- measure.
Caine accessible to the poorer. classes, public houses After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN and Mr.
ceased to be frequented. As those institutions were LocznAnT,
diffused crime diminished. Mr. W ORTLEY said that his intention was in the
The House divided, when there appeared— fullest possible degree to preserve the discipline of the
For thee amendment ... ... 21 Church of Scotland.
Against it B7 Mr. LAW said, if he understood the Hon. and
Majority ... —66 Learned Gentleman correctly, the Church of Scotland
The House resolved itself into Committee, Mr. Ben- and the Free Church of Scotland would retain the power
nee in the chair. of ecclesiastical censure. Did the Hon. and Learned
Upon clause 1 being proposed, Gentleman mean to extend that power to the Church of
Mr. BROTHERTON moved that the Chairman re- England?
Port progress, in order that the discussion on the Mar- Mr. WORTLEY said, with one single exception.
lieges Bill be preeeded with. every ecclesiastical censure now exercised by the Church
The Committee divided, when there appeared— of Scotland and the United Churches of England and
Fur the Motion... ... 68 Ireland would be preserved.
Against it 40 Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER totally dissented from
Majority —2B the construction put on the Bill by the Hon. and Learned
The' hatrman reported progress. Gentleman.
e EWART moved that the Bill be committed on The Committee then divided when there appeared—
es. Wednesday next. For the amendment ... ... 103
Mr. LAW moved as an amendment that the Bill be Against it ... 145
committed that day six months. Majority..? ... —42
t- -Mr. HUME considered this a most ungracious pro- The clause was then agreed to.
eeeding with respect to a Bill which had met with the Clauses 4 and 5 were also agreed to.
.4Pproval of the House.. On clause 6 being proposed,
Vie.:` -Mr. LAW said the Hon. Gentleman had himself voted Colonel CHAT.FERTON moved a proviso to the
, estop the progress of the Bill.—(Hear, and laughter.) effect that nothing in the Act contained shall extend,
-Sir. EL VERNEY, as one of the supporters of the Bill, or be construed to extend, to Ireland. Tne Honour-
be bad a tight to comptain of those who had charge able and Gallant Member continued to address the
Of the Bills and who should have proceeded with it. Committee at some length in support of the motion; but
The House then divided. The numbers were—
his observations were totally inaudible in the gallery.
For the amendment B5 Mr. FARRER moved that the Chairman should then
IV. Against it 47 report progress and ask leave to sit again. He had not
,
Majority against tne amendment —3B hard a word of what had fallen from the Hon. and Gal-
It was then agreed that the Bill should be re•com. /ant Colonel; and he thought it was time that they
milted on Wednesday next. should leave the unwholsome atmosphere of the Howie
MARRIAGES BILL. and retire to their beds.—(A laugh.)
On the order of the day being read for going into Colonel SIBTHORP supported the motion that the
l'ollunittee on this Bill petitions in its favour were pre- Chairman should then report progress. He believed that
tnted by Mr. Peto. Mr. J. Ellis, Mr., Harris, Mr. S. Hon: Members did not know what was going on in the
',,wortley, and Mr. C. Pennon; and against it by Mr. 13; House that evening, what they were opposing, or what
1161)P• they were supporting.
n, The House then went into Committee, and on clause Mr. J. S. WORTLEY entreated the House to treat
, 'a
being proposed. that question with the seriousness which .its importance
% Mr. R. PALMER rose, and proposed as an amend• deserved. •Ile would not then enter into any elaborate
bent the insertion in line 18 Of the following words •-- answer to the speech of the Hon. and Genera Member
, Nonehall any member of either of the said Churches f Cork. He should, however, observe, that the objec-
',,kctf Englanthand Scotland) who may hereaft:r contract dons- stated by the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman applied
enaltlY such .marriage, exempted, by virtue of this Act, to the principle of the measure, and not merely to the
le
any-such spiritual or ecclesiastical censure or pu- proposal that Ireland should be exempt from its opera-
4eeeeithtnent; nor shall any sentence 'eta restitution of cone' lion. HP had further to state, that the Archbishop of
Leal rights be pronounced by any ecclesiastical court in' Dublin, Dr. Whately, the first ecclesiastical authority in
y. suit nr proceeding between the patties to any such Ireland, strongly approved of the Bill, and in one diocese
:-17.4rriege." The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that in that country eight beneficed clergymen had expressed
bed now this Bill presented to them in an entirely a similar opinion upon the subject.
t:ery Point of view, and consistently with seen,* which Mr. F. MAULE • supported the motion for excluding
to Pei been given by his Right honourable Friend (Mr. Ireland from the operation of the Bill. He believed that
ortley), and which had been published in the Noncan- th.e great majority, nut only of the Protestants, but also
ehseentist newspaper; a considerable endeavour had been of the Roman Catholics of that country, were decidedly
I:, C-14,449 with a certain degtee of success to obtain a opposed to the inea.nre.
amount of " peculiar Dissenting support" for Mr. NAPIER said that both the Protestants and the
Measure. Accordingly' when his Right Honour. Rowan Catholics of Ireland were almost unanimous in
fee Friend applied for leave to bring in his Bill at their disapproval of the Bill; and he certainly thought
eonamencenaent of the session, he took new ground, that it would be most improper to force it on them
r6tead of proposing it as a measure equally tied against their deep and settled convictions,
lel,,.edifferently applicable to all her Majesty's subjects, Colonel THOMPSON said he very much doubted
Id- with reference to the wants and circuinstaneeb. whether the opinion of the people, either of Ireland or
th` At classes, he now, for the first time, stated of Scotland, wag so decidedly hostiitt to the measure as
nne'lt he proposed it in a great measure on the some Hoe. Gentleman appeared to imagine.
art
of the- conscientious" opinions which were en- Mr. F. MA ULE said that a paid agent had been rain•
f,:h eZetained by Dissenting b tdies, and expressly said that he bling up and down Scotland to get up petitions against
len ,et' come to the conclusion that it would be wise to Ihe Bill, and had succeededh in getting up one amougat
• n- '`..it provision j
which objection had been made, his constituents—(C eers and laughter)—but when he
;,int'2 to leave-the rules-and discipline of the Church per- attempted to get up a public meeting he could not find a
litl3nuntouched by the Bill. The amendment be (Mr. respectable person to take the chair.—(Hear, hear.)
.4er) had to propose was intended to carry the Right Mr. SADLEIR believed it would be impossible to
neetrable Gentleman's- profession into effect, for un- raise any feeling in favour of the Bill. On no one sub.
4iptionably the clause proposed by the Right Honour- ject hal imperial legislation been more unfortunate than
..44,37 Gentleman would be ineffectual for that
,purpose. on the subject or marriage. A large and influential por-
e ee king at the Bill as it' now stood he found that this' tion of the people consisted of Presbyterians, who viewed
„ittleituted all the difference between it and the measure ' the Bill with abhorrence, and he had consulted several
I'lltYeare His Right Honourable Friend had adopted Roman Catholics, who expressed the greatest anxiety
4kl;lttnencim'ents -of which he (Mr; Palmer) gave notice; that Irish Members should do all in their power to cone
talhleb were to the effect that nothing in the Act con- fine the operationnf the Bill to England.—(Hear, hear.)
'iced should be construed in any court to alter or affect The House ought to be careful not to force on the
lsit doctrine of -either of the Established Churches, people of Ireland an alteration repugnant to their
Ishtr,eby the degrees of consanguinity and affinity within social habits, abhorrent to their religious convic-
t, 'elk marriages were 'prohibited were settled and do- dons, and which might lead to social disruption and
-But beyond all doulanthis did no more than say convulsion.—(Hear.)
• Ite,uitne abstract doctrine of the Church upon the subject The O'GORMAN MAHON protested against the
" %fit t betaken to be altered. The next clause said accuracy of the statements made by the Hon. and
,
"en," clergyman or officer of either Church should be Learned Members for Dublin and Carlow, and against
4,l4olised, to solemnize any marriage of this description, the conclusion which they had drawn from those state-
too; was of ,some value, but his Right Honour- meats. Had there been any dissonance of opinion
hie Friend had • qualified.the amendment contained in amongst the Catholic body, they would have comma-
tele Palmer's): provision' by the addition of an nicated their sentiments to the House. He called ou
Q
rtant proviso at the'end of the clause, which found them not to interfere with that discriminating power
hl
I"I4LACe in his (Mr. Palinerte) proposition or the Bill of which had been so long and so wisely exercised by his
jPitrt and which-proviso was in these terms—that Church.
Of ititties to any such Marriage should not by reason Mr. MONSELL said, every class in Ireland, whether
14 Bill be subjected to cenanre er punishment by Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, or members of the Es-
en any ecclesiastical court; so that the administra- tsbltshed Churcb, were opposed to the Bill. The best
'Atetn"ver of the Church bad not been saved. The proof of this was to be found in the fact that the promo-
'ltin'uerient which he (Mr. Palmer) now proposed would tors of it, with ample pecuniary means at their command,
n
„Cleeu''ect to the principle asserted by the Right Hon. and with emissaries in every part of the kingdom, had
'Au "Inn and leave the rules and discipline of the either sent none to Ireland, or, if they had, their success
tot
- entirely untouched, and as to the Church of had been such that they had not obtained a single
lettitjld, leave the doctrine and discipline of' that Church nature. That having been the case, the people of Ire-
ie 'weig" 'rid inviolate. By the clause his Right Hon. land and Scotland, and a very large portion of the people
,‘„tveii7“ Proposed the discipline-of the Church was not of England being opposed to it, he thought they ought to
`offproposed
with respect to clergymen solemnizing reject it altogether.
Itekk_flarriages. With respect to all other cases of Colonel THOMPSON (who rose amidst loud cries of
of the Church contracting those marriages, the Spoke") asked if it was contended that the Roman
..itto;rous4, of the Church would be interfered with and Catholic Church granted dispensations for sets which
et destroyed by the operation of the Bill. If the were against the general morals and general good of se;
graNi shoo
ROE adopt his amendment they would clots? If not, the Irish Catholics must admit what
(Chinch owing to dmide in suite for as Chunk admitted under certain croliticns was a

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