The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-22 00:00:00

SIXTH DAY-BY EXPRESS.

SATURDAY, JAW, 20.
The Judges sat at' ten o'clock precisely, at which hour the
traversers were in attendance.

The jury having been called over, the evidence for the
Crown was resumed.

The first witness called was Mr. John Jackson, the Irish
correspondent of the Morning Herald, who, having been sw°,lll:
was examined by Mr. BREWSTER, Q. C., and deposed as 2,°_',‘
lows am connected with the press—with the Lona'.7
Morning Herald. I am the Irish correspondent of that Mel
and was so in the course of last summer and last autumT
attended at the meetings of the Repeal Association. I 'Ras s
the habit of transmitting regularly to London by the pos.,
re-
ports of what took place at those meeting..
hat 4
Mr. BREWSTER—My Lords, I wish to apprise y-sn - t the
is not my intention to make this gentleman go over al ,
speeches which the Court has already ibe heard. I will con‘no
myself almost exclusively to asking him who took part at
meetings. Take these documents in your hand, Mr. Jackson' so
and see whether they are the original notes which you sent
London?—Yes, they are.
Is this paper which I now hand you your report of the meet'
ing that was held on the 30th of May last ?—lt is.
I wish you to look to page 3of that report— I see it. on
Do you see in these notes a report of a speech made nr
that occasion by Mr. O'Connell ?—Yes, I do.
Head the first few lines.—The witness prroceeded to rkarcl,
the report, which commenced by noticing the fact of to
O'Connell's having directed the attention of the Associatiorflibe
an error which appeared in the report of the proceedings ,°f the
Longford Repeal meeting, which had been published in os
Freeman's Journal of the same date. In that report he of
made to apply the phrase " ruffian soldiery" to the arrileser
Great Britain ; but he begged leave to suite that he ° /issi
used any such expression. 3he circumstance to which he tie
alluded in his Longford speech had reference to the
ballad of " Aileen Aroon." He (Mr. O'C. ) then proceeded
his customary strain to —( Laughter.)
Mr. REWSTER—That will do. u
Go to; page 6 now and read from that ; I
not seen those manuscripts since you sent tb'em to London '
only got them from Mr. Kemmis
tootht initial. „ 6 et
believe yo
'l' ake that document, and refer e rseeting of Jniss, er'
the Association. I should observe, ms Lords, that t2::,scir
tleman's evidence applies only to the meetings of the
tion at the Corn Exchange, and nothing else. t. the
Look to page 1, and see which of the: traversers were a-
meeting ?—Daniel O'Connell.
f 04°
Look to page 6, and see if there 'were any others ell•
there ?—Yes, the Member for. Kilkenny, Mr. John O'C°ti
Mr. Barrett, of the Pilot, and Mr. Steele. ell °
Go back to page 6, and read a portion of Mr. O'Corinod
speech. Witness, reading, " He (Mr. O'Connell) rist,stl
yesterday amid t:/le scenes of Saxon cruelty, and the stu the
Cromwellian , cold-blooded butcheries, commencing with the
murder of 'Sir Charles Astley." (Mr.. O'Connell correctl the
witness., Askell"), Sir Charles Askell, and ending Wit
little drum boy.
Oeof
row turn to where he announces the meetings he b
to, come off, and read.—" I will be at Kilkenny on the 60t ire
June ; at Mallow on the 11th ; at Murroe or Abingdon on
`
13th ; at Ennis on the 15th ; at Athlone on the 18th ;LI, sii:
niskillen on the 21st."—(Mr. O'Connell, {r Oh, °Troia"
laughter.) The witness again corrected himself Ennis'
at Galway on the 25th ; at Dundalk on the 529th. 10('
lies 1 he
Did Mr. Steele make a speech at the meeting 7-- tot e
Steele came forward amidst great cheering, and said sort,
had received a letter, stating that the Glasgow Heralaerssied
to hold a banquet on the 29; and Mr. O'Connell h. it_ nest
a sovereign from an Englishman, who blushed for tnied.
ment by his countrymen of the noblest race in the yr°r,., t°
Mr. HATCHELL asked if this meeting was set forts.
n 't/bill of particulars ?
Mr. BREWSTER said all the meetings were set forth 2
the
but he would now turn to that of the 4th of July.le in
Mr. FORD made an ohservation, which was inaudih
gallery. frets
Mr. BREWSTER should not tell the jury that, beel°sewit4e
was no such meeting. It was struck out. (Handingh of the
another document), Look to page I, and tell me wh,,s2c.niel§e
traversers you find attending that meeting?—Mr. JJ'''"
Mr. John O'Connell, Mr. Steele, and 11r. Ray. ,
d tree,
Go to page 7, and say if there was any money receive_ son Se
from America ?—Yes, several sums were handed in from teof
rice. Mr. Duffy and Mr. John O'Connell were prose gel to
meeting which took place on the sth of July. see,:i‘slisu, res
my notes of that meeting ; Mr. O'Connell said hehe balitser
call the attention of the meeting to two points ;
ed oleos,
ceived a letter from a person in Sligo which inelqe rolross
letter from a discharged soldier, who stated that he o,'ooo
played by O'Connell to drill the peasantry. He k
nell) then called the attention of the meeting "'iv, erigio-ose
conspiracy which existed in the north, and said it: oil) sri,tsf
by the Chartists in Scotland. He (Mr. O'Llie tens"
about Lord Cloncarthy who attempted to prevent
001 reoi
from going to a Repeal meeting. es-A d sct
Was Mr. Ray, the secretary at that meeting, 9100 igof
member that. The witness proceeded to read islsredig
Mr. O'Connell's speech in which he alluded to this frinsi $
Downshire, who endeavoured to prevent his tenatsiation.t oe:
to a Repeal meeting or joining the Repeal A 720, th§orioe,l2.
(Mr. O'Connell) also read a letter from Anserl,r. O'C tti °
casion. I see page 4 of my notes where sir' d that le
moved that the letter be inserted on the minnte%„iter§' peer
thanks of the Association be conveyed to the thew., re'
(Mr. O'Connell) said here were allusions 7 it s'por
which came well from America, as the tone ,0 read slsle-..
sponsive to liberty. The witness continued
110. Ile
tion of the speech made by Mr. O'Connell rhanks of
tie tee
O'Connell) concluded by moving " that the . 1:
meeting be sent to the subscribers in America ensnonoi eir:
tion was seconded by Mr. Steele, and Pas", Fortin% ; 1%1;
I see page 10 of my notes, and observe
ssortseso
O'Connell's speech ; the notes are not in I' Wilaiv'sre of
John O'Connell read a letter on that day from
.'OO
to
Delaware, which letter contained subscripten9„,ene!2
thanks was passed to the subscribers. The witness Air. ood
read portions of Mr. O'Connell's speech. o, 0.95, :4(.00,110•
said the people ought to avoid the examplessi_ion so; Ce
thing like it, as it was by such means the u"
A/ember§ °bert
el
He did not forget the language used .by
an, sir Res of et%
binet ; Wellington, in the House of Lords,
.t solo's, en the'
f
in the House of Commons, had the audacity s sS.en.
go
et_
war, but that would check the march ofi Repeal't.emsantl tho,7,
spoke of civil war, let them look be s ore h
standwould not were
alone,attack ebduttlehye
ihwa,t,lpiteheorinresl;aleanntiiciieietd;,,•bi...6o
and under his advice they would never cortau,
they were attacked.

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BRaWSTER—Look at your notes of the meeting' of tlie
'la of Jul
O'CONNELL—It would be well if the officer of the'Court
barked these notes. Let them be handed in for the purpose.
llatirSTEß—Look to page 1 of that date; do you see the
of any of the traversers entered there as being present?
see the names of Mr. John O'Connell and Mr. Daniel
Connell ; I see the name of Mr. Barrett in page 4.
At this period of the proceedings there was some little noise
!!•tie table caused by the isovernment Reporter soeaking across
she table to Mr. Brewster.
The Curer JUSTICE pointed down to where Mr. Edwards
Ras sitting, and said the disturbance came from that place.
Mrs O'CONNELL, who was sitting next to Mr. Edwards, got
tip And denied that it came from him.
Mr. Frrzerenots said that many persons came there from cu-
ec4itY, and if they could not hold their tongues they ought to
main at home.
ilr BREWSTER—Look to page 12; do you find that Mr.
il'aYdid anything at that meeting ?—Yes, he handed in several
tri4sl,l:t zney ; I find in page 13 that Dr. Gray gave in con-
-IMr. 13arwseee—Look to page 3, read the contents, and read
l'awlY, if you can.
MA ror—Hold up your head, sir, and raise your voice.
The witness then proceeded to read an extract from a speech
Mr. O'Connell's, •in which he eulogised Mr. Murtage, and
rlilised to attend the meeting at Baltinglass on the 6th Gof
f gust, which was his own birth-day. He then read a letter
the Right Rev. Dr. Cohen, Roman Catholic Bishop of
e'ofert, earn sing his subscription to the Association. On the
rile day Mr. Barrett handed in money from a Protestant gen-
an of the North of Ireland.
kThe witness then read another extract from a speech of
o,to O'Connell's at the same meeting. In that speech 5.1.
• "oriel' alluded to the necessity of attending to the mum-
Zal elections, and said that the Tories had refused to pay the
r°Ofill rate. lie also said that Lord Brougham had been
sieniring how the money received at the Association was die-
NI Of , but if Lord Brougham chose to ssbscribe his pound
woeld be enlightened on that point—that is, if they would
tsceive the suloscription of such a man. They had invested
e,'°°o/. in the funds already, they intended to invest 4,0001.
'are, and 1,0001. had been advanced for the building of the
"tneiliation Hall.
Mr. BREWSTER—Look to page 12; do yin see an entry of
„ OuY coney handed in by Mr. Ray ?--Yes, Mr. Ray handed
Pisobscripitions from different parts of England and Scotland
Itue witeess enumerated them). Dr. Gray handed in money
i 4 the :acne day, and stated that the Marquis of Dewnshire had
aterfered to prevent his tenantry becoming Repealers.
Baxwseee—Look to your notes of the meeting on the
iOnth of July, page 2. —I have them before me. The secretary
'anded in money on that day. In page 6, I see that Mr.
O'Connell handed in looney on the same day. In page 8, I
nd that Air. Duffy, of the Nation, handed in his subscription.
I
page 9, 1 find that Mr. Steele and Mr. John O'Connell
"'tooled in money.
Mr. Hisewseett—Look to page 6, and read the statement
°f Mr. O'Connell with regard to' the finance details?—Mr.
0'
3,
stated that the amount received from the 4th of
aIY, 1842, to the corresponding quarter in 1843, was 15,0001.
Mt. BRE WSTE ta— We will now go to the 14th day of August,
la set out in the indictment. Look at page 2of your manu-
seript—erho appetteed to have been at that meeting of the As-
sociation ?—Alr. Ray, Dr. Gray, and Mr. O'Connell.
Go to page 4, and tell me who were present at that meet-
-14?--Mr. Steele was present.
Go to page 12 ?—I don't see any names there.
Look again ?—Oh, yes, I see there the name of Mr. Duffy,
of the Nation.
Mr. \% luITLSIDE—Wr do not find any mention of the 14th
of August in our copy of the indictment.
Air. lessewseett—lt is a misprint.
Mr. Witrrestno—My Lord, be good enough to strike out
that evideoce against Mr. Duffy.
Air. ligewsese—Just alter the date, my Lord, because Mr.
"offe's name cornea in the next meeting.
Go to page 22 of August 3, and say who were present at
that meeting?—Air. Duffy, Air. O'Connell, 11r. Steele.
Go to page 5, and say whose name do you find there 7—Mr.
John O'Coonell's.
Go back to page 3, and tell me did Mr. O'Connell do or say
"'thing that day ?—lt states that Air. O'Connell arrived
seortly after two o'clock, accompanied by Mr. Steele. He read
several letters, enclosing contributions from repeal wardens,
ziontan Catholic clergymen, and others.
, to page 7, and tell me what do you find there ?—Mr.
u'Connell read a letter from Philadelphia, containing remit-
taoces and resolutions read at the Association of the friends of
Ireland
and Repeal, and he moved that the letter from Judge
Duran he inserted upon the minutes.
Ge to page 9. Did he read any document of the Association
that day ?—Yes, he read his plan for the renewed action of the
Irish •
rarhament ; I gut a copy of it at the Association.
The deputy-clerk then read the plan for the renewed action
of the Irish Isusiament. He continued to read the manner in
Which members were to be given to the various cities and towns,
arid considered the basis of representation should be the amount
°f population. This was taken from the census of 1831, which
Was prepared for a different purpose, and without reference to
the report of the Union. Household suffrage, after a certain
Period of occupancy. to give the right of voting, and votes to be
taken by ballot.
Turn to page 11 of that day ? Finds no notes referring to
arbitrators at that page.
Look at the last four lines ?—I see it there ; the meeting
then adjourned to the next day, when they were to report on
the mode of appointing arbitrators and the abolition of the
Catholic oath.
Judge CRAMPTON—Abolition of what? Witness—The
Catholic oath; looks to page 4; finds Mr. Barrett's name
and Mr. Daniel O'Connell ; at page 5 Mr. John O'Con-
nell ; at page 8 Dr. Gray ; reads page 4 ; Mr. O'Con-
Sell handed in several sums of money from various parts of
America, arsdread letters from New York and Utica accompa-
nying the respective sums, which he moved might be inserted
on the minutes. Witness was proceeding to read" there were
kigh sounding --."
Air. FITZDIEBON, Q. C.—ls this your comment on the pro-
ceedings ?—Yes—( Laughter.)
Mr. Worresins desired him not to trouble them with refer-
ring to anything of his own.
Witness proceeded--Air. O'Connell said it was prudent to
advise with the proprietors of the several newspapers as to the
propriety of printing supplements, that all the letters should be
published. At page 8 reads the speech of Dr. Gray, of the
Freetnan's Journal, proposing the adoption of the report fur-
nished by the Committee as to the mode of selecting and
carrying into operation the appointment of arbitrators through-
out Ireland. Got a document that day at the Association.
Has it its Court. Hands it to officer to read. The Clerk of
the Crown was then proceeding to read from manuscript on
very slight paper.
lodge Ceeterrox—Perhaps you have it in print; it is
easier to read.
Air. BREWSTER—We have it printed.
The officer then read the Report of the Sub-Committee,
August, 1843, on the system and appointment of arbitrators
in Ireland, signed by Dr. Gray, Aug. 21, 1843.
Sir. BREWSTER—Look to the meeting of the 28th of August,
and say who were present?—Dar. Steele, Mr. John O'Con-
nell, Mr. Ray, Mr. O'Connell, and Dr. Gray.
Look to page 7, arid see if Mr. Ray did anything ? —He
read a letter inclosing a bill on Air. Rothschild for 120/.
Did Air. J. O'Connell read a letter?--Yes; he read a letter
from Cincinnati, inclosing 1131.
Did Air. O'Connell say anything at that meeting?—Yes.
• The witness then read some observations made by Mr.
O'Connell with respect to the order on Rothschild, the Arbi-
tration Courts, and a letter received from Mr. harry, of Mallow.
Look to the meeting of the 29th of August, at pages 3 and 5,
and say who were present at it?—Air. O'Connell, Mr. Ray,
arid Air. J. O'Connell.
Read the observations of Mr. O'Connell at that meeting.
The witness commenced to read an abstract of the speech
read by Air. Ross yesterday, when
Mr. Justice Ceeareeors asked whether it was necessary to
read the speech over again ?
Mr. Berwseee said that he only wanted to have the last
Page recd ; but the other side might require to have the
entire read.
The witness then read some observations made by Mr.
O'Connell, to the effect that Ireland had many grievances to
coMplain of. She was accused of being discontented, and she
pas so. It was said she was disaffected ; but he sung back
the accusation by saying it was as false as hell. She was not
,oisaffected, but discontented. There should be no outbreak in
°is life-time; but when he was dead it would not be an un-
natural or unadvisable result.
The expression "unadvisable result" seemed to come with
surprise upon counsel for the Crown, the Solicitor-General. and
Alr. Brewster again asking him what result ? To which the
Witness still replied, " an unadvisable result."
Sir. O'CONNELL—I never said anything of the kind. (In
ime report react by Sir. Ross yesterday, the words were, we be-
" unavoidable esult.")
Mr. Beevissoee—Can you say how any of those observations
were received?—No.
Look to page 1 of the report of the meeting of the 4th of
Ray,
and which of the traversers were there ?—Mr.
41'1, Mr. Steele, and John O'Connell.
Go to page 7, and see if Mr. O'Connell did anything ?—He
handed in sums of money from Roscommon, Circwar Bar, Bel-
fast, Adelaide. New York, Boston, and other places.
Did Air. Ray make any observations?—He recommended
the " Spirit of the Nation" to be circulated amongst the peo-
ple, instead of the trash tkey were in the habit of reading.
As the witness read the passage very indistinctly, he was
ordered to read it over again.
Now go to page 16, and see if Mr. O'Connell said anything
about another meeting to be held?—Mr. O'Connell said that
there would be a meeting in Loughrea, where three or four
hundred thousand people would be gathered together, and
Where there would be no breach of the peace if the sub-in-
tpector of police would only allow him to have 200 men, hardy
Repealers, to act as policemen, under the command of the
sub-inspector.
Now go to the 10th of September, and look at page 1,
Which of the traversers were present ?—Mr. O'Connell, Mr.
Barrett, and Mr. Steele.
Go to page 10, for the meeting if the 12th of September,
and say if Mr. Barrett did anything ?—He handed 'an a sub-
oeription of 211.
bid Air. O'Connell do anything after that ?-Ile addressed
the raveling, and handed in 500/. from Ameeeca. He also
pointed ant that the Orangemen were tryineg
Re-
peal movement a religious character, but ti oat ito give the Re-
t would fail, as
their object was to benefit Irishmen of all classes.
Now go to the meeting of the 13th ref September, and say
Rho appeared at that meeting?—Mr, ry
and Air. Ray. Connell, Mr. Steele,
What did Mr. O'Connell first do ? —He read a letter from
Washington, United States, and desicribed it as a document
characterised by good sense, practical information, and con-
laitliog expressions of sympathy to Ireland.
What did Mr. Ray do ?—He rear'( a communication on the
subject of the enumerators appointrld to take the numbers of
the constituency.
Air. Brewster then handed in a manifold copy of the address
to all British subjects, which Mr. O'Connell, at this meeting,
said should be circulated through the three kingdoms, and
;placarded on the walls of Liverpeel, London, and Bristol. As
this document was read yesterday, bee did not occupy the time
of the Court with it, but simply put it in. He continued the
r=umination of the witness by telling him to go to page 1 of
th notes of the meeting of the 21st September, and to state
which of the traverser, were pr esent.—Mr. Ray, Mr. J.
O'Connell, and Mr. Duffy.
Lid Mr. Daffy do anything ? Re handed in subscriptions.
Lookat the meeting of the 27th of September, and tell me
7.11? y?n find were at that meeting: ?-3Jr. O'Connell and Air.
O'Connell.
Witnese
-, in answer to another spaertion, was reading part of
oh .of Mr. O'Connell, but vssis stopped by Mr. Brewster, otsaid that he did not want to hear what Mr. O'Connell
Said. lie onl
y wanted to prove that he was present at the
meeting,
Afro .any other person there?—fle . Gray.
BREWSTER—The subject Towner of this meeting was
tfot,ed y
yesterday ; should not, therefore, occupy the
the Court with going over it a gain. He only wanted to
proSvier. H
the presence of the traversers'.
ESIDE—But you are no t to assume that this man
saw thetli?
liMr. BREWSTER I am not assuming anything. Look at
.;‘.°'&2o:.erild say who was at the meeting of the loth? Mr. J.
lr.
an
bid AI r•
and A.
r.
O'Connell
state at that re .eeting anything relating to
another meeting ?-11e made some
a at Alullaghmast. .observations in reference to
' was reading the oisservat ions, when
to
ti_vr one said the coarse Mrrepormo the evideuce of Mr. _Rol, •
r. .Brewster had to pursue was
he ought, therefore
;

•
react ir:Pr; thin, of svilich the witness had takets netos, and
net such extracts only as were deemed material.
Mr. BREWSTER said in some instances he had certainly called
on the witness to read the speeches; in a majority of cases these
speeches had been already read by Mr. Ross, but where he
thought it desirable he had called on this witness to read them
a seconclitime;aln some instances this was not at all necessary.
All he wanted to prove at present was whether Mr. 4VConnell
announced the meeting at .Mullaghmast.
Mr ,IloollE—lf the witness cans- forward to (rive evidence
as to any of the traversers being at the meeting, 'he submit, ed
that he ought to give an account of all that was done. He would
not go the length of saying that a reporter ought not to give
evidence as to what Mr. A. or Mr. B. said, or what every indivi-
dual said ; but if Mr. O'Connell or any of the other traversers
made speeches on that occasion, he had no right to make ex-
tracts fi om those speeches, or read only those portions which
he thought material.
The CHIEF JUSTICE thought Mr. Moore had misunderstood
Mr. Brewster. What he had stated had not been done ; the
witness was stopped in his reading by Mr. Brewster.
Mr. Moorte—ln one instance the witness began in the
middle of a speech.
Mr. BREWSTER—It was the middle of apage, not the middle
of a speech. The passage was the reference made to the dis-
tribution of " the Spirit of the Nation" by Mr. Ray.
Mr. Mooex—On this occasion Mr. O'Connell appears to
have made several speeches, and when he called for any of
them to be read, he called for the whole. In this particular
ease nothing had been heard of the speech beyond the announce-
ment of the speech at Mullaghmast.
The CHIEF JusTscx —You have misunderstood Mr, Brew-
ster, Mr. Moore.
Mr. WHITESIDE said if they had half the sentence read
they must have the whole.
The CHIEF JUSTICE—I shall not consider a single sentence
of that !pet ch as having been read. It was not wanted, and the
reading it was merely a mistake. He would agree that it would
be quite unfair for the Crown to give a garbled extract from a
speech, and not give it entire.
Mr. Wurresinx— What your Lordship has said is quite
enough. Mr. Brewster asked a question about a speech of Mr.
O'Connell ; if he asked more than that, and wished to have any
of it read, he must read the whole.
Was there anybody else present at the meeting of the 28th
of Sept. ? Look at the last page and tell me.—Mr. Steele was
there also.
Mr. BREWSTER (to the Clerk of the Crown)—Hand me the
witness's notes of the 3d of Oct.
The Clerk of the Crown handed over the document.
Mr. BREWSTER (to witness)—Look to page —, and try
do you find there any other of the traversers?—Yes, Mr.
O'Connell.
Look at page 4?—Mr. Steele.
Look at page s?—Mr. Duffy, of the Nation.
Look to page 6 ?—Mr. Ray and Mr. J. O'Connell.
Look to page 7?—Dr. Gray and the Rev. Mr. Tierney.
Mr. BREWSTER—Then it appears that all the traversers
were present except Mr. Barrett. My Lords, as Mr. Hughes
has already read out his entire report of the proceedings of that
meeting, I do not think it necessary to trouble the Court by a
further reference to the witness's report of Mr. O'Connell's
speech.
Mr. FITZGIBBON begged leave most emphatically to protest
against the Learned Counsel indulging in any such remarks as
those which Lad now fallen teem him. If Mr. Brewster in-
tended not to ask his witness any further question, he might
rest satisfied with his own determination to that effect, without
troubling their Lordships with what he did not purpose doing.
Such a course was wholly unnecessary.
CHIEF .1 uszice—But, Mr. Fi zgibbon, the Court has a
right to receive for their own satisfaction, if they think fit, such
information as has been offered by Mr. Brewster.
Mr. FITZGIBBON—My Lords, I most respectfully maintain
that 11r. Brewster has no right whatever to state to the Court,
in the hearing of the jury, the reasons which have induced him
to adopt su h or such a course.
Mr. MocieE, Q.C.—Besides, such a proceeding leads to the
inferei.ce that the present witness may be in a position to cor-
roborate Mr. Hughes's notes, whereas there is no direct evi-
dence whatever to prove anything of the kind.
Mr. BREWSTER-1 only wanted to avoid the imputation of
leading the witness. To witness—At the several meetings in
respect of which you have given evidence, (lid a great number
of persons attend in the room ?—Sometimes more, and some-
times less.—(Laughter. )
Were they generally well attended ?--Yes, the meetings
were usually well attended.
At any of the meetings, in respect of which I have been ex-
amining you, are you able to call to mind whether yon heard
any of the traversers say anything about newspapers?
Judge PERRIN—To which of the meetings do you allude ?
Mr. BREWSTER—My question has reference to any of the
meetings in allusion to which he has given evidence.
Mr. FITZGIBBON objected to the generality of the question
Judge PERRIN—The witness you know, Mr. Fitzgibbon,
must specify a date, otherwi,.e his evidence is oflittle value.
Mr. BREWSTER—I merely wanted not to lead the witness.
Witness—l have nothing on my notes in yeference to news-
papers beyond what I have already read from my reports.
Mr. BREWSTER—I meant something additional, my Lords.
I have done with the witness.
Cross-examined by Mr. FITZGIBBON—May I take the liberty
of asking you, Sir, what countryman you are ?—I am a Clare
man.

You are an Irishman at all events ?---Yes, I am.
How long have you been a reporter ?-4 have been for two
years In the capacity of Irish correspondent to the Morning
Heraid.

I did not ask you, Mr. Jackson, how long you had been a
correspondent. That was not my question, what I asked you
was how long you bad been a reporter?—l can't say lam
a reporter, that is to say, I am not a shorthand writer.
I did not ask you were you a shorthand writer, I asked
you how long you had been a reporter ; do you mean to say
you are not, and never were a reporter ?—I am not a reporter,
and never was in that sense of the nerd.
In what sense of the word ?—I mean in the sense of a short-
hand wi iter, for the term, "reporter " is usually applied to a
shorthand writer.

Then, by a " reporter " you mean a shorthand writer, or
stenographer ?—Yes, I do.
W ere you ever in the habit of reporting proceedings of
meetings or courts for the purpose of such reports being pub-
lished in the newspapers ?—Yes, after a manner.—(Laughter. )
Then you were, in point of fact, a reporter of public pro.
ceedings with a view to having them published in the news-
papers ?—Yes.
That is just what I mean. When did you begin to practice
in that capacity ?—Three or four years ago.
'With what newspaper did you begin ?—I had been in the
habit of contributing to provincial papers before I was con-
nected with the Herald.

By reports I do not mean contributions; but to what pro-
♦incial papers used you to •end your reports ?—Principally to the
Limerick Star and the Limerick Chronicle.

Ghat were the polities of the Limerick Star?—lt was a
Liberal paper.
And so, too, is the Limerick Chronicle?—No, it is not; it
is Con,ervative.

Did you send reports to both of these journals at the same
time ?—No, I did not ; I used to send reports from my own
place, and not from Limerick.
And ot all this wide creation, Mr. Jackson, pray what place
belongs to you ?—(Laughter.)—Kilrush.
That is your place ?—Yes, it is ray native place ; my con-
tributions had no reference to politics.
I did not ask you anything about polities, Sir; your reports
had reference to public proceedings, had they not—hail they
not reference to matters ot public interest ?—They were princi-
pally sketches of the petty sessions of Kilrush.
Illustrated sketches ? —A little embellished occasionally.
By being " k little embellished " do you mean to convey that
there were pictures in them for the purpose of embellishment ?
—No ; they were pen and ink embellishments.
Then, I suppose, that by embellishments you mean some-
thing in the report which, in point of fact, did not occur ?
Decidedly.
Something, in fact, that was not true ?—Yes.
I may go the length of saying I suppose, that half of them
were fictions ?—There were many fictions in my sketches.
And that, I suppose, is what you call reporting after a man-
ner ?—Yes, precisely so.—( Laughter. )
Then you commenced your career as a reporter by vending.
falsehoods ?—No, not exactly that ; I wrote on the same prin-
cipl,, and in the same style, as a reporter to a magazine.
116 w you contributed to magazines?—l have done so a little.
And your magazine articles are embellished after the same
fashion ?—.ll y magazine articles were tales ot imagination.

Are you a bit of a poet ?—lndeed a vt.ry large bit of a poet
(the witness was remarkably tall).
Are you what is called in the county Clare a poetasther ?
(Laughter. )—You may, if you like, apply that appellation to
me, for I do not mean to say I am a poet.
Have you contributed articles in verse to any publication?—
Yes, I have.
art you ever contribute to the Nation?—Never.
To what papers were you in the habit of sending verses?—
To the Limerick papers I have named.
And your poetry, I am to suppo-e, bore some conformity to
the principles of the paper to which you sent it ?—ln nine
cases out of ten such was not the fact.

But you admit that in the tenth case it might, perhaps, be
the fact?—lt might, perhaps.
Were the reportsyou sent to the newspapers similar to your
contributions to the magazines ?—No, they were not.
To what magazines do you contribute ?—There was a sketch
of mine some time billet in the University Magazine. It was
a tale of fiction.
Yes, but was it pot intended to pass for true ?—Yes, with
those who would be fools enough to believe it true.—( Loud
laughter. )
Was it sun intended by those reports to convey an accurate
account of what passed at the Kilrush Petty Sessions ?—Some
of wha',, was published did occur there.
You intended they should all appear in the newspapers as
trr..e ?—Yes.
And yet they were not true ?—Some of them were.
When did you cease reporting at Kilrush ?—This month two
years I came up here.
How did you propose to live in Dublin ?—I got a letter from
the proprietors of the Morning Herald, asking me to come up
here as their Irish correspondent.
Who was it at (Kilrush that introduced you to the notice of
the proprietor of the Morning Herald ?—I met a relation of
the proprietor of the Limerick Star in Kilrush, Mr. Griffin ;
he asked me if I was not the author of those sketches in the
newspapers of the KilrUsh Petty Sessions, and I said I was,
and then he said that the proprietor of the Morning Herald
expressed a wish that I should send some of them to that paper,
which I did, and then I came to Dublin to be their correspim-
dent.
Dublin is a place where a man must have a little income to
make himself smooth. Pray, how do you support yourself here?
—1 have ISO guineas a year from the Morning Herald as their
correspondent.
A fixed salary ?—Yes.
What were you to do for that ?—To send a letter every day,
having reference to the leading topics of political interest, anti
whatever the local papers adverted to.
That is, you were daily to read the morning papers in
Dublin, and to make a summary of that which you thought
would be agreeable to the Morning Herald editor ?—Yes.
Had you the privilege o. embellishing those before you sent
them up had.
And of course you exercised it ?—No, I did not, beyond the
truth.

There was no truth in those petty sessions' sketches you sent?
—Only in same of them.
Well, I now speak of those from Dublin ?—They were always
true, to the best of my ability. I gave the news of the day as
I found it.
That is, you gave whatever you found in the morning
papers, whether 'twas true or not ?—I gave what 1 thotwht
was probable; if 1 saw any absurd statement, I would be slow
in adopting it until I ascertained by inquiry whether it was true

or not.
Tell me now, by way of sample, what mode you took of as-
certaining the truth or falsehood of any one of those state-
ments ?—Genei al inquiry.
From anybody you happened to meet ?—.Wherever they
were the subject of conversation, I endeavoured to find out
whether they were true or false.
Can you describe how you proceeded on any one occasion ?
I don't understand you.
You don't ?—I cannot charge my memory as to any particu-
lar occasion. If you were to ask the editor or correspondent to
vouch for the accuracy of every thing he writes, you would find
it very h'rd to get him to do o.—( Laughter.)
Would you be good enough to take up the first of those papers
produced, that of the 30th of May. Did I understand you to
say this vas the note you took for the Morning Herald?—
That was my daily letter.
Mr. BaswsniThe note you took. sure it's a letter.

Mr. FTTZCItS6N (tiffitifigto Mr, P-i•pwster):—l beg'of yen
not to assuille that- I don't understant, hat Fir, exarntlin; tbi•
witness about, and it is not upon this occasion alone, but for the
future. lam pretty nearly a Clare man myself, and I can un-
derstand the Clare brogue well enough.
To the witness—Now, mind, I don't ask you about the sub-
stance of what is written in these scraps of paper, but I ask
you are those the identical scraps of paper you forwarded to the
Morning herald ?—The very identical papers.
Now show them to me. (Witness handed them to the
Counsel ; the manuscript was written on both shies of the
sheet.) Did you send these identical papers for the pur-
pose of being set up in the office of the Morning Herald?-
1 did.
I suppose you know enough of reporting to know that it is
necessary in sending manuscript to a printing-office that it
should be written only on one side 7—Yes.
That is a part of the instructions of every reporter ?
It is.
So that it may be setup at once, without being copied ?—Yes.
Was the paper you sent as it is now, in scraps of this kind?
—No, thee were in full length slips.
After having sent these slips to the Morning Herald, when
did you see them again ?—I received a letter from the proprie-
tor about two months ago.
Don't tell us about his letter now. I ask: you: only for a
date ?—I never saw them until about two months age.
In whose hands did you see them on that occasion ?—The
Crown solicitor handed me a letter from the proprietor.
Now don't tell us about your letters.
Witness—My Lords, in justice to myself—
CHIEF JUSTICE—You're not asked about that now. How
did you come into communication with Mr. Kemmis 7—He
sent for me and I went to his effice.
Was that the first time you were in his office?—lt was the
first time I ever saw him to my knowledge.
Whose initials are those on that paper?—Mine.
When and where did you write them ?—ln Mr. Kemmis's
office, a few days atter I was called on by the proprietor to
do so.
But was you in communication with Dlr. Kemmis before
that ?—No.
Did you expect that communication from Mr. Kemmis to at-
tend at his office ?—Upon my oath I did not.
When did you begin to attend the Association meetings ?
About eight or nine montl-s ago.
For the first time?—l was off and on there before.

Were you a Repealer?—No.
Did you pay a shilling going in at the door ?—I did, the first
,me I went in.
Afterwards you went in free—you went in as a reporter ?
did.

Were the accounts of the proceedings you sent over from
your ow n notes ?—Sometimes they were, and sometimes bor-
rowed from the notes of the man near me, perhaps.
Were they borrowed from the notes of the man near you ?
—Very frequently they were ; I copied them from the slips of
the man next me.
Was that a short-hand writer ?—Semetimes he was, and
sometimes not ; I gave the substance of what he had written
out, of course. I could not copy shorthand notes, not being a
shorthand writer myself.
Used 3ou ever to vary the language when you copied from
the manuscript of the man next y ou ?—I used.
In order that it should not have the appearance of being a
copy of what he transcribed ?—Precisely.
And am I to understand that that was done to prevent the
appearance, to your own proprietors, that you had merely
copied what another man had transcribed ?—Exactly.
And those are the notes you have been reading here to-day?

—Yes.
Look to those notes you have read, and select out of them any
one piece of paper which you will swear, upon solemn oath,
contains what was taken down by you from the lips of the man
represented in it to have spoken I—Upon my solemn oath this
paper (holding up one of his sheets of manuscript) contains
the substance of what Mr. O'Connell said.
Will you swear those were his words ?—To the best of my
belief it is the substance of what he said. I never attempted
to give his exact words.
Now, attend to me. On your oath, did you write what is
upon that slip of paper while Mr. O'Connell was speaking ?
Yes.
Upon your oath, was that written down upon that piece of
paper from the lips of Mr. O'Connell while ho was speaking
it ?—Yes, occw_ionally taking a note, and catching the leading
topics in hie diseoin se.
1 ask you to fix upon any one of the pieces of paper you have
in your hand, that you will positively swear that you
believe was written while the speaker was speaking ?—To the
best of my recollection this (meaning one of his slips) was, but I
cannot be positive.
Then you are not positive ?—No.
What is the date of that slip ?—The 30th of May.
Then you are not positive as to that ?—Not very.
Are you positive at all that that iece of paper was written
from his lips while he was speaking—It is in substance what
lie said, to the best of my recollection.
Is that an answer?-1 think it is.
On your oath was it written while he was speaking, and not
from a -paper?—l cannot swear that, certainly.
Then you won't swear that itmay have been taken from a
paper ?—A certain portion of it may or may not.
Might not any person in the Court give me that answer—
that " portions of it may or may nit?" Must it not be either
of the two thinga ?-1 do not recollect any particular case.
Could you fix upon any one of all the slips ?—I could not.
Take up your paper of the sth of July. Was that little
bundle made up in the same way as the others ?—Yes.
Was it written whilst you were in the Association?—It was.
Was it written whilst the people were speaking?— Yes.
Do you swear that ?-1 do. •
The whole of it?—Yes.
While the meeting was going on, and in the Association-
room ?—Every one that refers to the meeting Lof the day was
written in the room.
And while each particular speaker was speaking 2—lt was.
Do you swear that positively—that every one of those slips
were written in the Association, and while each speaker, whose
language they purport to give, was speaking ?—Certainly not.
Did you tell me a moment ago they were ?—I did not.
Did you tell me in any sense they were ?—I said they
were. —( Sensation. )
And you say now they were not?—While the money was
handing in I wrote out what previously occurred.
Will you now turn to the speech put into the mouth of Mr.
O'Connell, on the 15th of July 7—He said he wished to call
attention to two letters he had received that morning from
Sligo. One was written by a discharged soldier, stating "he
was employed by Mr. O'Connell."
Well now, have you the speech of Mr. O'Connell in moving
the insertion in the American book of a letter received from
America ?—I have. Mr. O'Connell moved that the letter be
inserted in the American book, and not on the regular minutes,
and that thanks be conveyed to the two office-bearers named
in the letter, as subscribed to their fund.
De you swear that sentence was written by yourself, when
the speaker was speaking ?—To the best of my opinion it was.
Was it net?-1 can't be certain.

Now, listen to me while I read from this paper (Freeman's
Journal) a report of the same speech you have been reading to
us—" Mr. O'Connell said it was better to take np each of the
American letters by itself, and therefore moved that the letter
should be inserted in the American book, but not on the regu-
lar minutes of the association, and that the thanks of the associa-
tion be conveyed through the two office-bearers that were named
in the letter to the subscribers to that fund." Now, is not that
verbatim with what you have read from your slips.
Mr. Be Ewszza—l beg your pardon, and 1 will take the
opinion of the Court whether I am right or not. I have no
objection if .Mr. Fitzgibbon puts this newspaper in evidence, but
1 object to his reading any quantity out of a newspaper he
pleases, and then asking the witness—Does that correspond
with something he has in his hands?
Mr. FITZGIBBON—I am not at present asking Mr. Brewster
to look at what 1 am doing at all.—(Laughter.) I am at pre-
sent testing the credit of this witness ; and I contend for my
right to show the jury that by any human means I can: ot,
without having that paper before my eyes, repeat one word or
syllable that is in that paper.
Mr. BREWSTER--It is not to the newspaper I object, but
to the mode of examination adopted by Mr. Fitzgibbon. I
object to the mode of his examination, because he reads from a
newspaper the exact words of the witness's notes which he
sent over in his eel-respondence.
Mr. FITZGIBBON-1 don't read from the paper at all. I'll
read from my brief now, I tell you.--(Laughter.)
Mr. BREWSTER—If you offer the newspaper in evidence I
will not object to it, and then you may examine him as to it.
Mr. FITZGIBBON—Here is my brief ; will you have it in
evidence ?—( Great laughter.)
Mr. BREWSTER—It is not competent for yen to read from
your brief or any other document, and then ask the witness if
what is read agrees with notes he has taken. I say it is not
competent to do so unless you put the document in evidence.
Mr. FazGlessoN—l will take up this paper, and see if I
don't read a report of every word the witness says he sent to
the paper.
Mr. BREWSTER—Rut that is what I object to.
Judge BunToti—Why go on to prove what you have such a
perfect transcript of ?
Mr. FITZGIBBON—The course I am taking is infinitely more
fair to the witness than the course alluded to on the other side ;
it is the only fair and legal course which I am at present adopt-
ing; if 1 did not take this course, I would be stopped from
reading the document, if I did not examine the witness, as to
the fact, before he left the table. In the paper of the next
morning, I,find a verbatim report of what the witness says he sent
to London, and if I did not ask him about that 1 would have
been stopped from reading it, unless I asked the man about it when
I had him on the table. Here is a man who comes on the table
to tell the jury that he is a reporter for a newspaper, and as such
attended the meetings of the Association, where Mr. O'Connell
spoke. I will show he is not a reporter, and that he was incapable
of taking reports where he says he did, and that what he asserts is
false. I want to show what he says is absolutely, and morally
false, and a fabrication from beginning to end, and that he is
now speaking to the jury what is false, when he tells them that
the documents which he holds in his hand were written by him
at the meetings. He comes here falsely representing to the
jury that fact. He did not take a note at those meetings, nor
had he the ability of taking notes, and, therefore, I want to
show that what he did do was copied verbatim from the
morning papers of the next day, and sent off by him, al-
though he tells the jury he wrote the pieces of paper at the
meetings.
Judge BURTON—I see your object is very clear.
Judge Canme-rox—Mr. Fitzgibbon, am I to understand
that you intend to give the paper in evidence?
?.Ir. FITZGIBBON—No, I do not.
Judge CRAMPTON—Then I feel great difficulty in that case
its allowing this sort of examination.
Mr. 13REWSTER—If he puts in the newspaper as evidence I
will withdraw my objection, but unless he does so I must press
it. Mr. Fitzgibbon may tell me he will not read from the
paper but from his brief, and I object to that also, for how am
1 to know but that brief might be a copy of what this gentle-
man sent to the Morning Herald.—(Laughter.) Let him put
in the newspaper as evidence, and I will withdraw the ob-
jection.
Mr. FITZGIBBON—I am here at present to but no, I
will get it in another form. Come, Sir, turn round and
answer me ?—Yes, I will, Mr. Fitzgibbon.
Will you now, Sir, take on yourself to swear, on your solemn
oath, that you did not copy these slips of paper from the
morning paper of the next day, and then send them off as
your own report?—To the best of my recollection—l cannot
say. 1 might have copied them either from the paper, or a
notetaker's slips.
Hah ! halt ! Take that down. I will repeat the question,
Sir, (question repeated)?-1 might have copied them either
from the piper, or another notetaker's slips.
Well, did you do that while J. O'Connell was speaking ?
I can't say that.
One way or other ?—No one way or other.
Did you do that on the same day of the meetings or the
day after 2—l can't be positive as to that.
Not positive ?—No, not positive.
Did you see the report in the morning papers of the next
day ?—I might have seen it.
Then, you might have copied your report from the papers ?
—Soule of it I might have copied.
Youinight have copied it all ; eh ?—lt is possible.
Did you ever copy irom the morning papers at all ?—Yes, I
used to copy some, and cut out more from it. I sent the slips
which 1_ cut from the papers over whenever I adapted them.
And, you sent them to London?-1 did, possibly.
On your solemn oath will you venture to swear you did not
take all these papers from the newspapers, or from another note-
taker's slips?
Judge Peitaist—Come, Sir, speak up, arid let us hear you,
as it. will save a great deal of time to do so.
Witness—For all I can tell, I might have copied them from
thy newspaper or the note-taker's