The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-08 00:00:00

voted was judiciously spent they had not • the proper ma-
teriels submitted to them for judging.. Non-professional
gentlemen who looked at the A'avy Lid would fancy that
we had a respectable fleet, but in reality we had no
fleet whatever for the &fence of this country. The
ships stationed at Sheerness, Chatham, Portsmouth, and
Devonport were wholly unfit for service, and were not
manned at all. The few ships that we bad on the home
station ought at least to be efficient. With regard to our
steamers we had several very bad vessels which were origi-
nally cut down ; and out of the whole force in England
we had not a single ship that, according to the
notions of the present day, ought to be kept in com-
mission. Instead of having our worst ships stationed here
in time of peace we ought to have our bast. The expense
of keeping a good ship in commission was not more than
that of a bad one. At present the navy was entirely de-
nuded of men, although a short time ago the First Lord
of the Admiralty told the house that the navy was so
popular that he could not get rid of the men, and that
when they were paid off they entered again immediately.
Yet, an order having been sent down that the continuous
service men who were entitled to their discharge after 10
years' service might have their discharge at once if they
thought proper, not less than 1,503 men at Portsmouth
claimed the privilege, and asked for their discharge. He
was also told that all the first class boys, who had been
trained with great care, and were getting useful, were
offered their discharge as well as the apprentice boys, and
that every one of them also took their discharge. He did
not blame the Admiralty for this, but he was sure that if
the House of Commons were asked for men for manning
the navy they would be happy to vote them to-morrow.
A pamphlet on the state of the navy had been published
withia the last few days, which was well worthy the at-
tention of the house and the Government.. At present the
state of the navy was worse than when the late war broke
out. Then we had a small though efficient squadron, and
we had more ships ready for sea than we had at present.
The hon. and gallant admiral, amid marks of impatience on
the part of the house, proceeded to read a comparison from
the pamphlet in question between Cherbourg and the ports
of England, to the disadvantage of the latter. He would
say nothing against the efficiency of ',our ships on foreign
stations, but he contended that in Great Britain we had
not a force sufficient, nor could we get it within a short
time. The First Lord of the Admiralty, on moving the
navy estimates, stated that this country ha I only 42 steam
line-of-battle ships, while France had 40, and he added that
Fr nice, having 90,000 men available for the purpose, could
man her fleet, while we could not. There were no ships in
England from which to draught the men required to man
a fleet, and it would be impossible to find them suddenly.
Instead of sending out screw ships to foreign stations the
Admiralty sent out sailing ships ; but if it were found ne-
cessary to recal them they could not come home with the
same rapidity as screw vessels. It appeared from a recent
debate in another place that all the troops going to India
were to be sent out in sailing vessels, and one noble lord
stated that sailing vessels would convey them faster than
steamers. If so, why were we building screw steamers at
an enormous expense ? No doubt, there were delays in
calling at the Cape and coaling, but if the screw vessels took
the same course as the sailing vessels and used their coals
in a calm, there seemed no doubt that they would make
quicker voyages. The Government,in sending sailing vessels
to foreign stations, should also remember that if we were at
war it would be a great advantage to an enemy to carry his
steam force to our colonies, when he would there have to
encounter only sailing vessels. Where would the First
Lord get men in case of war if our ports were blockaded,
and our sailing vessels abroad were not able to get home?
Ho blamed the Ministry for not asking for more men.
He found by the estimates that the number of our naval
force amounted in the present year to 52,135 men, but
from that number 5,700, the amount of those engaged in
the Coastguard service, must be deducted, so that the
number of effective men, including the marines, was not
above 46,453. That he regarded as an insufficient force,
and he must therefore urge upon the Government the ex-
pedience, of taking active steps to remedy a state of things
which he could not look upon in any other light than as
dangerous to the safety of the county. Ships were like
fortifications. They became utterly useless if they were
net properly manned, and seeing that other countries were
busily engaged in drilling their seamen and manceuvering
their fleets, he contended it was high time for the right
hon, bare, the First Lord of the Admiralty to do something
to place the navy of England upon an equally advantageous
footing. The gallant admiral concluded by moving for the
following returns :
`• Return of the names and rates of the reserved steamers
at each port, their horse power, whether high or low pres-
sure, screw or paddle, number of officers, men, and boys,
engineers and stokers employed to take care of them, and
how many were ready for commission on the Ist of June,
1857 ; and, similar return of the steamers in commission at
the various ports, with their crews, how many Coastguard
mon are borne on their books, the number of coast volun-
teers enrolled, and how many have been called out and
drilled."

Mr. BENTINCK seconded the motion. Our navy in its
present state could not be maintained, he considered, as
efficient even according to the details of the service which
bad upon a former occasion been furnished Ly the right
hon. baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.
Those details distinctly proved that our naval iorce was
not now sufficient to meet the requirements of the country
in case a war should unexpectedly break out. He trusted
the earnest attention of the Government would therefore
be directed to the subject, and must say he was astonished
to find that, while money was night after night voted for
comparatively insignificant purposes in that house, the
estimates for the navy were sought to be cut down to the
lowest possible amount. (Hear.)
Sir C. WOOD, who was very indistinctly heard, was
understood t 3 say that he scarcely deemed it expedient to
follow the hon. and gallant admiral and the hon. member
for Norfolk into a discussion with respect to the general
state of our naval force upon a motion such as that before
the house, especially when ho took into consideration the
circumstance that when he had, a short time since, moved
the naval estimates he had entered largely into detail in
connexion with the subject. He had upon that occasion
stated that he thought the number of men which he asked
the house to sanction would be found to be sufficient, and
he did not think that anything had since occurred in re-
ference to our relations with foreign countries which ren-
dered it expedient that that number should he in-
creased. The n amber of seamen and boys which had
been voted for the service was 33,000, while the num-
ber of marines was 15,009, making a total of 48,000
effective men, and not 46,453 as the hon. and gallant ad-
miral had observed. That number was exclusive of the
Coastguard, which amounted to 5,700 men, and taking all
the circumstances of our poltion into account ho saw no
good reason why the country shoald bo put to the expense
of maintaining a)arger force. We bad, it was true, this
year no home squadron or squadrons of evolution, but that
owing, as he had before stated, to the fact that we were
engaged in hostilities with China. The Government had
not deemed it desirable, in the absence of a large portion
of our fleet in that quarter, to ask Parliament for money
to constitute a home squadron, bearing in mind that when
those hostilities wore at an end the fleet would return and
constitute a squadron of that nature without the necessity
of having recourse to any additional expenditure for the
purpose. He might also remind the house that we now
possessed a larger naval force than had ever yet been voted
by Parliament in a time of general peace. If a war should
unexpectedly break out he believed that the country pos-
sessed a fleet quite able to cope with any force which was
likely to be brought against it. The Government were the
best judges of the chances of war, and it certainly was not,
desirable in time of peace, and with no prospect of a con-
flict, to keep up such a naval or military establishment as
it might be expedient to maintain if the country were
on the eve of war. He found in certain correspondence
which took place in the reign of Louis XV. a maxim laid
down which was well worthy of attention. It was, Do
anything but go to war with England; keep her in a state
of alarm, so that she may think it necessary to keep
up an enormous army and navy, and that will exhaust
the resources of any country. That maximinvolved a cau-
tion worthy of being attended to ; and he was sure that no
British House of Commons would ever refuse to vote the
number of men which the Government would deem neces-
sary in case of emergency for the safety of the country. He
was glad that the gallant admiral had spoken in terms of
praise of the system which had been established with re-
gard to the coast volunteers, because be believed that that
system tended to provide a good reserve of seamen. With
regard to the returns moved for by the gallant admiral, he
could only say that whatever information any foreign Go-
vernment might derive, with regard to the force of this
country, from private sources, it was a universal rule not
to publish any official statement upon the subject, and,
therefore, he felt it to be his duty to oppose the motion.
Mr. LINDSAY thought that. so far from any danger re-
sultiug from foreign Powers being made acquainted with
the number of ships winch this country had at her dis-
posal, it would be a great safeguard, because he believed
that such a list would be shown as would make any Power
think twice before venturing to come into collision with
them.

Admiral DUNCOMBE entirely disagreed with all the
observations of the gallant admiral. He for one did not
wish to see ships run away, and, as to fighting, the gallant
admiral had given them little chance of doing that when
he had a fleet under his command in the Baltic.

General TIMIIPSON suggested that the best way of
improving the efficiency of the navy would be by increas-
ing the number of marines. At present there was only
about one multi() to a gun, and he was sure that a captain
of a ship would prefer having three or four. Thera were a
great many persons in England, who from the old naval
prestige of the country felt a, natural inclination to go to
sea, and many of them might be induced to join the ma-
rines, or rather the marine artillery, in which many passed
midshipmen who saw little chance of being promoted to be
captains would be glad to take the rank of ensign or second
lieutenant, Regiments of marines might be placed in
Malta, Gibraltar, Plymouth, and other places, whence
they could be conveniently called upon when their services
were required. In case of a drawn battle in the Mediter-
ranean or the Baltic or elsewhere, the marines would form
a useful reserve. He therefore thought that an increase in
the marines would be of great use.

Sir J. ELPHINSTONE said that the country required
men, and not ships, of which she already possessed the
finest in the world, but how to man them upon a sudden
emergency wa3 the difficalty which required to be dealt
with. The hon. and gallant gentleman concluded by com-
plaining of the manner in which seamen had been dis-
charged, not only in this country but in other parts of the
world.

Mr. HNNICEY moved the adjournment of the house,
complaining of the length of time hon. members had been
kept in attendance.
- • - •

Sir C. WOOD hoped his hon. friend would not press his
motion until the subject then before the house had been
disposed of.
Sir C. NAPIER then replied, amid loud cries of " Di
vide !" which rendered him almost inaudible. He vindi-
cated the accuracy of the figures quoted by him as.to the
number of seamen, and accused the hon. and gallant ad-
miral (Admiral Duncombe) of ungentlemanlike and dis-
honourable Gondact in the observations he addressed to the
house.

Admiral DUNCOMBE rose to order, and called the at-
tention of the Speaker to these unparliamentary expres-
sions. (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER--The use of those words by the hon.
and gallant admiral certainly escaped my notice ; but I
cannot doubt that as his attention has been directed to
them he will withdraw those expressions, which are, as
the hon. anti gallant admiral must know, quite unparlia-
mentary. (Bear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER— -The house must remember that I re-
ceived very severe provocation, (" Oh !" and " larder.") The hon. and gallant admiral reflected on my conduct
when commanding in the Baltic, and said I had given the
fleet no opportunity of fighting, whereas he must have
known perfectly well that it was impossible, (" Order,
order !") If the house is of opinion that I ought to with-
draw these expressions I will do so. (Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER then put the question, when the voice
of Sir C. Napier was heard among the " Noes, " in opposi-
tion to his own 'notion.
The motion was accordingly negatives.
Sir C. NAPIER said there had been a mistake. He