The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-04 00:00:00

perish or union of peri-hes might carry out the obi et
now desired; hut coon corehlerwien, to Fain' to the
multiplicity of iete rests cencernel, be came to the con-
clusion that it we 'd be physic:ll;y impossible to celery
it out it it were left to parishes alone. He beliese
d.
therefore; although he would not defend ad the provi-
sienti of this Bi'l, that it would be impossible to abate
the nuisance cenaplained of, end to carry on extramural
interments without some such holed as was now pro-
posed. He did net wish to eels-relies—the less of ern-
tralintion the better—bat there might be pecti!iar cases
where self. government was improper. Take Smithfield
market—would they leave that entirely in the hands of
the Corporation of London? And there were other
similar cases. He believed that it would be better far
the people to accept this Bill than to run the risk of
lasing it altogether, and have the possibility of the
cholera again orcurring.—(Cries of "Oh, chl") The
Bill was absolutely neceasery for the welfare of the
country—it was loudly called for by the people, end
ought to pass into law.
•
Sir B. HALL slid, the statement of the Right Hen.
Gentleman the Home Secretary was most unintisfectory.
Ile had stated that in 1854 the-subject might he again
considered. They had, however, had such assertions
before; for instance, when the income-tax was proposed
they were toll they might reconsider it at the end of
three years, but they had had it from that time to the
Present. Once lot the board in question be established,
and it would be difficult to get rid of it. The question
at issue was, whether they should take from the metro.'
politan parishes the power of interfering in these matters.
If they could show that the three large sarishes with
• 'which he was connected, S. Marylebone, St. Paneres,
and Paddington, had so meledminiatered their affairs
that it was necessary to take the control of them out of
their bands, he would say, let it be dare at once; but
whilst he would go as far as any one where private
burial-grounds were concerned, he did object to inter-
fering with metropolitan boards that showed intelligence
and activity, and would, as he believed, conduct their
business much better than it would be done by the cen-
tral board.
The CHAIRMAN explained that as the proposition
of the Hon. Gentleman was to expunge the clause, and
something had been said about amendments being pro-
Posed in the clause itself, it was necessary first to dis-
pose of such amendment.
Sir W. CLAY said, the real question was as to the
best mode of constituting the central body, for it seemed
to be quite admitted that the end they had in view could
not be carried out by all the parishes without intercom-
munication. Now, there were 87 parishes to be com-
prehended by this Bill, and the question was whether
each parish was to have a control in constituting the
central body, each sending a representative—than which
he could conceive nothing less adapted to the end in
View; or whether the body was to consist only of three
or four persons chosen by the different parishes.
Lord ASHLEY, after complimenting Mr. Chadwick,
Who he spoke of as a useful public servant, proc: eled so
say that the measure would impose no expanse upon
• any of the metropolitan parishes. Power was taken by
the Bill to levy a rate of a penny in the pound, but it
Would be merely nominal, and in the nature of a security
to enable the central authority to raise a sum of
Money for the purchase of ground and to defray the
expense of the arrangements :which must neces-
sarily be entered into. The payment of interest and of
capi‘al would be provided fur out of the fees to be
charged for burials. There could be no doubt upon that
point. If the number of interments should amount to
the usual averages—namely, 52,000, the fees would be
reorethan sufficient to repay the capital with interest.
It mai not until after mature deliberation the Board of
Ilealth determined against employing the agency of the
Parochial system in carrying out this great work. If the
parishes should act singly they would he too weak to
effect geed; if they should act in combination their ma-
chinery would prove too unwieldy for efficient operation.
Thee, again, if parishes were to act separately the cat-
. Peuse would be greatly enhanced, for each would have
its Own burying-ground, its own officers, and its oven
• establishment charges. At present where the burial-
. Places ne re of easy access the expense of fanerals
Pressed heavily on the humbler clssses; but it was end.-
. dent that the expense would be seriously aggravated wh• n
• it became accessary to convey corpses six, seven, cr ten
mike from London accordingly as the different parishes
might select the places of sepulture. The only way
in which it was poisible to reduce the expense of extra-
Mural interments was by undertaking the business on
a large scale. The experience which he had of parochial
authorities in Auguet and September last, when the
• cholera was sweeping away its hundreds per day, did not
incline him te e,oatide to them the administration of such
en important measure as that under the consideration of
the Committee. It could be carried ict ) complete effect
by a strong and independent body. As to responsibility,
about which to much was said, it would be greater under
• the plan proposed by the Bill than it could possibly be
under the parochial system. Could it be seriously
reairatained that the responsibility of any parochial officer
Was equal to the direct and personal responsibility of a
Ineteber of the central board having a seat in the House
Of Commons, and liable at any time to be questioned
ttbout the proceedings of himself and his colleagues?
'rho parochial system which was sought to be upheld had
been in existence for many years, and under it had sprung
up all those abominations in churchyards which it was
the object of the present measure to put an end to. The
sYstem of extramural interment was established in the
greater pit of the civilized world—in Prussia, Ger-
many, Italy, France, end even in Turkey; and in every
instance it was carried into effect by means of cert7al
authority.
Mi.. Alderman SIDNEY said it was estimated that
'OO,OOO/. would be required for launching the scheme,
and 112.001. annually fsr the working of it. The
Roble Lord said, that the money required would be
ranted by fees upon interments. Well, if there were
52,000 burials annually the fees must amount to 21. on
each. burial to cover the expense.—(Hear, hear.) The
•city of London was prepared to abandon the practice
of burying within the wafts ; they were provided with
l'aitable ground in the country, and all they desired
. Was to be allowed to make their own arrangements.
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND said, that almost every
clause in the Bill was objectionable. At the same time
't would be unwise to reject it altogether. Rather let
them discard what was bed and retain what was good.
Sir LE L. EVANS opposed the clause. Because ex-
!Mental interment was necessary it did not follow that
it 'yes accessary to appoint an irresponsible tribunal
with powers of the most extraordinary description to
change the whole system cf our local administration.
Perhaps the next proposition would be that the Poor-
' • "I' Commissioners should put down the boards of guar-
di.
sns end tke parochial vestries. Ho hoped the Gu-
Vernment would iispend the passing of the clause, arid
give time to seteeest a substitute.
Lord J. RUSSELL observed that all the opposers of
th,_e clause seemed ta have fallen into two errors—first,
e" .• et our parishes had been for the last 300 years in the
Practice of burying the dead; and, secondly, that the:
Proposed board would be irresponsible. He had always
11cderstood that, if a pauper died in a workhouse the
Parish had to take care he should be decently interre 4,
but as to parishes having any general control over the
burial cf all persons, he tied not say it was a power
th5Y had never exercised, and one which could only be
Therefore
on them now by an Act of Parliament.
4.llerefore the whole of the declarations they had heard
• about self-government fell to the ground, and the pa-
' lsbts had no more claim to exercise that power than
they had to say to the Admiralty, °'We can build ships
e_
rttter than you, and ought to build them exclusively."
was admitted, without a dissentient voice, that
,o
erita in that great metropolis and in the thickly mallet-
- htle 1 suburbs should no ong
cause of disease and mortality
Illunte the living.—(Hear. hear.) It being necessary to
• liatet• that system. let the House consider in whose hands
leY could best place the power of carrying this alters-
liont o into effect. If they could obtain a better body than
Doltßoard of Health they would be wise to give it that
, si,wc•r; but let them not run away with the notion that
tu,l".llSe they heel parochial bodies already those
,•• e:1 :e6 Were the best fitted to exercise that power. Was
IseerSperish to find a separate burial ground, and to
lde a cemetery according to its requirement.? In
44' way the Bill could never be carried into effect at all.
- th-tt_a. Gentlemen talked of the expense of this Bill, but
3'expense to which the ratepayers of ihe metropolis
ns,uld be put by such a proposition would b© something
11%;'4:te beyond contemplation, and persons of small means
4utterly ruined.—(Hea_ ,r hear.) Then as to a
etr'bietation of parishes, was this a sort oft business a
eser-4,.bination of parishes might to undertake? Let them
fr 'dem that in adopting that plan they were departing
pr the the parochial constitution and self-government they
a 4.7 t 1 so highly.—(Hear, hear.) If they had 80 or 90.
moldtaking on themselves the burial of all persona, ;t
et,l-1(1 be as groat an innovation as the proposal of Go-
; pe4tueur. It was, in fact, necessary to create a now
because what was proposed was new and their
• paslc‘ of effecting it must be new also. If 80 or 90
a° 41es were to combine it would be necessary to have
, tottt Place of meeting which would, of course, be dis-
is
ti,es °us the residence of some of the parish represen-
• .t. the attendance, consequently, could not always be
~ °us and a board. sa constituted would be
'A z. Y unfit to carry on the business. He came, then,
` the conclusion that they must have some small
iaa web,
3),, of Persona—he would not say with the precise
the,71.4 Proposed, but with such powers as would enable
1,, I eke'ultot•() Carry out the object es to which all were agreed.
to he the irresponsibility of the Commissioner o eah, it was
es'eae boutdretuambered that the chie of that
tetiil,'!atos was also chief Commissioner of the Woods and
hewei_ta, and that, in the case of any abuse or complaint,
aaarisullitl.be responsible for anything done in hisdepart-
aiih No one had suggested any better body to intrust
Wits "50 powers; and, if they determined to do away
!y, .
• r
q DEr, _
them. esent syst
Theem, they hadbetter take the means
„ b 1 to Hon. ©M
for Finsbury (Mr.
e'esastobc bad declared himself convinced of the ne-
e, Publicylit f doing something for the preservation of the
Stigsot.nealth, and then said the Government Bill was a
161 tis„ liurei le i°b• If it was advisable to indulge in iMpUt2-
that kind, it might be easy to make them with
t• of roSt't to the 0 • '
ati. oes oOpposition to the Bill, and to the motives
tilp4tati I-Posers, which would be quite as valid as the
,t gs,o ens of the Hon. Member.—(]Tear, hear.) He
a It's 4rvethse llon- Gentleman. full creit for wishing to pre-
tee .
rit4l4 Public health, and hoped he (Mr. Duncombe)
11 Gsiatiettstive the same credit to Government. The Hon.
, the teoe_all (Mr. Alderman Sidney), who had reminded
. shitss,! i:, would coat 112,000/. to work the Bill, forgot
is., I:tit ewl_l.(t. the estimated saving on the annual inter-
,: •
.21st esij.tl.ll he in round numbers 350,0001. Though
q,411f!,
eVeLbe exaggerated, it must be admitted the Bill
aeil'se I,;‘,,,M.ssiot;tea great diminution of expense.
h_ is ATT thought the Noble Lord went too far
4tty of
..arßued that if all were agreed as to the neees-
o'4,rt.earszollt etude', they must adopt the means he offered.
hiep Lord had quite failed in showing the pare-
tad at4thositi
baito ittztres'riSreffi.lld not cerry out the proposed change,
necessary to appoint a new and irre-
Lstse aka • with powere unknown to the constitution,
Would ntl these ef any hoard at present existine
°t oanction any departure from the principle