The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-06 00:00:00

TILE SUN,

object to a bond fide joint occupancy, but the clause as it
stood would lead to the creation of faggot votes. He
objected to a person who he'd premises rated at say 241.
having the power of putting in the names of two other
persons as voters under thee holding, though they might
have no real interest in it.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was understood to
say that he had no objection to any amendment of the
clause, such as that suggested by the Noble Lord.
On claase 9.
Lord STANLEY said that in several of the boroughs
of Ireland there was a class of 51. householders, whose
rights of voting were preserved by the Reform Bill. He
wished to propose the insertion of the words:—"or 54
householders qualified to vote;" and to strike out the
words relating to persons qualified to vote in respect of
habitancy.
After a few words from the Earl of CARLISLE,
The clause, as so amended, was understood to be
agreed to.
On clause 15,
Lord STANLEY said they had now come to a clause
on which he proposed to raise a question of considerable
importance, as t 3 whether there should be an option on
the part of the voter as to whether or not his name
should be placed on the register. It was proposed in the
Bill that the clerk of the peace should in the first instance
send to the clerk of each union a list of the existing re-
gistry, excluding from it persons entitled to vote from
occupation, whose names might be struck off by the clerk
of the peace. It was proposed by the Bill that the
transmission of the list by the clerk of the union shoul I
have the effect of placing the new s of those voters on
the registry who had paid their rates, whether they were
inclined to become voters or not. He wished to propose
an amendment to alter the mode of proceeding so far as
that the clerk of the peace should prepare the list of
the existing register, and should transmit so much of
that register as related to the respective baronies to the
clerk of the union; but instead of excluding all those
persons whose franchise depended on occupancy, he
should transmit a separate list of all such persons, who,
if not rated to a certain amount, shall be struck off the
list. The clerk of the union should then return to the
clerk of the peace the list of persons on the registry by
virtue of occupancyyrith the words "objected to" before
those persons not properly rated. The clerk of the union
should not be called on to introduce into the register any
new name whatever; but all persons not on the register,
or all persons objected to by the clerk of the union,
would be at liberty to make separate claims. Those
persons would make their claims according to the prac-
tice observed in this country, and, if unobjected to, their
claims would be allowed. According to his proposal,
the duties of the clerk of the union would be limited to
objecting to persons whom he might find on the register
without having paid their rates, but he would have no
power of placing new names on the register. The
Noble Marquis had expressed the other night his
opinion that great indignation would be excited in
Ireland by the number of persons who would be
without a vote in consequence of the 151. rating being
eel opted. He wished to ascertain the value which
the people of Ireland placed on the exercise of the
franchise. Were they anxious to obtain the franchise?
He had no wish to give she voter the trouble of attending
to defend his vote. He-should leave the onus probandi
on the person who objected to it. All that he required
was, that previous to having his name placed on the re-
gister, he should express a desire to have his name
placed on it. If the people of Ireland were so indifferent
to the franchise as to refuse to sign an application for it,
not only would there be no injustice in not placing their
names on the register, bat there would be great injustice
in forcing them to register.—(Hear, hear.) Everybody
was aware of the influences which might be broaeht to
bear in Ireland on the voter with respect to his fran-
chise. a man's name was on the register he would be
pressed upon by the priests or the landlords, and between
the two he would be placed in the most painful circum-
stances. He admitted that in the exercise of the fran-
chise every voter ought to act conscientiously; but to say
that it was a solemn trust, and that a man entitled to the
qualification was bound to claim it, and to insist on the
right of voting, was as absurd as it would be to say that
it was incumbent on every one of their Lordships to at-
tend from the commencement of the session to the end
without exercising any option.
A Noble Loin—And the appeals in the morning.—
(Laughter.)
Lord STANLEY—Yes, that he must attend the ap-
peals in the morning, and never abstain from voting on
any question.—(Hear.) The question for their Lord-
ships to consider was this—would they compel a man to
be a voter or not ? —(Hear, hear.) By compelling him
to become a voter they would, theoretically, perform an
act of injustice ; but practically they would be sowing
the seeds for constant ill will and constant conflicts be-
tween the landlord, the tenant, and the priest.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said it was of infi-
nite importance that that class of persons who, from
their possession of land or other property. were
considered entitled to vote for Members of Par-
liament, should, without any effort or exertion on
their part, be placed in a position to vote. He believed the
adoption of the suggestion of the Noble Lord would lead
t a considerable restriction of the franchise. The
Noble Lord had spoken of the position of Members of
their Lordships' House. Now, he wished to remind the
Noble Lord that this Bill would not compel a person to
vote, and that it would place him in a similar position to
that of a Peer or a Member of the House of Commons.
The elector exercised the right of voting, not fir his
own good but for the general good of the community.
It was a trust conferred upon him, and the right could
not be justifi-d on any other principle. It was fre-
quently the case that those persons who were the best
qualified to exercise the trust were the least desirous
of making an effort to obtain it; whilst, on the contrary,
those who wished to make " political capital" were per-
petually endeavouring to acquire an interest in the
representation, and their proceedings often tended to
bring the representation into the worst possibly
He believed the effect of the amendment would be to
increase the influence exercised by particular indivi-
duals in particular constituencies, and in some parts of
England and Scotland, where the register had not
been attended to, the remedy had been taken into the
hands of the managers of different parties, depending
upon local interests; and when by any accident that
local interest ceased to operate, the effect was that the
registry dropped altogether, or was confined to a very small
number of persons; and he knew one case in which it
was limited to between ten and twenty per cent. He
trusted their Lordships would not agree to the amend-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM said that what applied to Eng-
land did not apply to Ireland, the state of the two coun-
tries being so widely different. In this country, scarcely
any one entitled to register abstained from obtaining the
right, but in Ireland it was perfectly the reverse. The
question then arose, whether there were not reasons which
induced persons to abstain from registering. Now, if a
man was deserving of being intrusted with the discretion
of electing legislators, surely he was entitled to exercise
the minor discretion of saying whether he chose to vote
or not.—(Hear.) But the matter did not rest there, for
if the Legislature once compelled him to have the right to
vote, why not compel him to exercise that right ?
(Hear, hear.) It was said this was a duty. But was
not a man compellable to do his duty?—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Marquis said that those whom he wished to
possess the eh ctive franchise were just those who now
abstained from it, and not jobbers, of whom, he was
sorry to say, a good deal was known in Ireland, some-
thing in Scotland, and not a little in this country. Now,
was it not very hard that a person not wishing to job
should not be allowed to live quietly and peaceably
under the shelter of his own roof, but be compelled to
become a politician?—(Hear, hear.) It was very desi-
rable no doubt that such persons should vote, and he
would do everything to tempt them, but would not com-
pel them, when they had good reasons of their own fir
keeping in the back ground.—(Hear, hear.) But if that
part of the argument of the Noble Marquis was good for
iny thing, why not carry it further, and compel the
freeholder to register as well as the tenant? He looked
on the measure as neither more nor less than making the
legislature ancillary to the power of the priest.—(Rear.)
Earl GREY said he had never heard a speech so en-
tirely founded on a misunderstanding. The Noble and
Learned Lord seemed to think that the Bill would com-
pel a man to vote, but there was no compulsion in the
case.—(Hear, hear.) Now what was the state of the
case? In 1832 the system was altered, and registeration
became necessary. When the Reform Bill was intro-
duced, it was meant to have a registration requiring no
personal interference on the part of the voter. And why
was that altered? A deputation from Manchester
waited upon Lord Althorp and said, " You require us to
send in a list of freeholders; we have no means of
knowing them." Now that was a complete answer to
the latter cart of the speech of the Noble and Learned'
Lord, and it was on account of the impossibility of the
parties called upon to make out the lista being able to
distinguish between a freeholder, a copyholder, or a
leaseholder, that a personal claim was made neces-
sary for the purposes of registration. But in
boroughs that was not the ease, the overseers being re-
quired to make out the lists from the rate books. By the
Registration
o
Act 1844, every borough voter was
placed
ntheof
register without any application on his
part. It was said that the voter might desire to escape
from the necessity of voting; his answer was, that the
exercise of the franchise was a duty from which no man
ought to shrink, and that it was not desirable fhata
personal application on the part of the voter should to enable him to exercise the right to
which
h be
i w
he was entitled.—(Hear, hear.) The question then aroseeh
whether the same principle did not extend to thoseen
en-
titled to the elective franchise. It was a great mistake
on the part of the Noble and Learned Lord, arising no
doubt from his not having sat in the other House since
the registration; system was adopted, to suppose that
there was a general disposition on the part of the voters
to put in claims; every one who had aught to do with
contested elections knew that nothing was more difficult
than to get voters to make their claims; and hence had
arisen the machinery:of registration societies on both sides
ef politics, in every borough and county in the king-
dom. In the counties, if committees were not f firmed,
end great activity displayed, a large proportion of
quVrfi.edanpderistownsas
gis , wetorerealways
tohmisi"tehdatfrroemcoutrhsee had
been had to the registration societies,byto ywhiecan ha con-
tinualTbe agitation was kept up from year
effect of the clause under discussion would be to secure
hesa
ba registration
only.
It
wasof
all
impossiblequalified
persons,
deny
erson
spressure insteadha t
ono
pabine-
rilreland were much exposed toundue
side or the other—from the landlord or the pr:est; but
he only remedy for this tyranny was largely to increase
'he number of electors—(Hear, hear.) A body of 20 or
30 might easily be marked out and coerced, or punished
if they refused to be so; but where the voters numbered
hundreds, this would be impossible—(Bear, hear.) The
clause sought only to carry out the principle of the Re-
Form Bill, which was also the old principle of the English
•onstitution—that every qualified person should have a
vote without the necessity of making a claim, and he
was convinced that this was the only sound footing on
which the county franchise in Ireland would be placed.