The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-06 00:00:00

IMPER/AL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 5.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Several Bills brought up from the Commons were read
a first time.

THE POST-OFFICE INQUIRY.
The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition complaining.
of the unconstitutional conduct of the Secretary for the
Home Department. He did not understand why that
Secretary was under any necessity to be the agent of
Foreign Powers.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he thought
it would be better to postpone any discussion till a future
stage. ,
The conversation then dropped.
THE CHURCH COMMISSION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a peti-
tion from holders of Church property, complaining of
certain acts of the Church Commissioners. The Noble
Marquis insisted that the Legislature had no more right
to interfere with property of this kind than with any
other property. He prayed their Lordships to turn
their attention to the subject.
The Bishop of LONDON denied that the Church
Commission had acted in the manner alluded to by the
Noble Lord. They would have been guilty of a gross
dereliction of duty if they did not make the most of a
property with which that and the other House of Par-
liament had entrusted them. He could assure the Noble
Lord that any business transacted by a smaller number
of the Commission was at the earliest period made known
to the greater.

The Duke of RICHMOND said that this being one
of the few Commissions which did not make a report
to enable the country to understand what it was, doing,
he was as much in the dark a 4 others. But he knew that
certain persons had complained of the severe views taken
by the Commission of its duties, and as the Right Rev.
Prelate courted inquiry into the transactions of that
Commission, he (the Duke of Richmond) hoped that the
Noble Marquis who had presented this petition would
move for a Select Committee upon the subject.
After a few words from the Marquis of Clanricarde,
Lord Carbery, and Lord Wharncliffe,
The Bishop of EXETER said that as a trustee of a
great public property for a great public purpose, he
trusted he might be allowed to say a few words on the
subject. He considered that his duty as a trustee of
that property was to make the most of its value, and till
ho was told by the authority that delegated him to the
office that the contrary was his duty, he should still fol-
low the line he had laid down for himself when he ac-
cepted the trusteeship.
Lord RADNOR thought that the principle laid down
by the Right Rev. Prelate was a most just one, and he
was astonished that the Noble Marquis and the Noble
Duke upon the cross-benches should have seemed to
doubted the prop,iety of it for a moment. He thought
that the Commissioners had a full right to insist upon
the full value of their property ; and further, that they
would be negiceiing their duty if they did not do so.
The Earl of BESBOROUGH hoped that the Noble
Marquis would investigate the subject further, and he
would find that the Commission did not at all deserve
the remarks applied to it by the Noble Marquis.
The subject then dropped.
The Criminal Justice (Middlesex) Bill was also read
a third time and passed.
RAILWAYS BILL.

The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE proposed an amend-
ment, the effect of which was to compel railway com-
panies, having any trains running on the Sabbath, to run
third class-trains likewise.

Lord MONTEAGLE said the point to 'which he
wished to call the attention of the House was, whether
the accommodation and cost of travellino• to the poorer
classes would be equal on the Sunday with other clays of
the week. If that were the case, he would not say a
word against the clause, but cordially support it ; but,
if such were not the case, the clause was a nullity.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said he understood it was
the intention of the other House of Parliament to make
the cost of the third-class the same on Sundays as on the
other days of the week. He could not conceive there
would be any difference of accommodation.

Lord bIONTEAGLE wished the clause were more
distinct. Unless some provision were made by the Le-
gislature, there was little doubt but the railway pro-
prietors would give such scanty accommodation as would
force the travellers to go into the other trains.
The Earl of MINTO said it would give great offence
in Scotland if the trains were not allowed to run on
Christmas Day and Good Friday, for neither day was
observed there. It would not be right for the Legis-
lature to compel their observance, at least to a very in-
convenient extent.
The Bishop of LONDON said that Christmas Day
and Good Friday should at all events be observed in
England.
Lord DALHOUSIE said the effect of the Bill as
amended would be to compel a cheap train to run every
day, and to increase the traffic on Sundays. The mea-
sure on the table had been concurred in not only by the
Government, but there was an understanding with the
great railway proprietors throughout the kingdom. The
sense of Parliament had never yet been expressed on the
propriety of accommodating the humbler classes with
third-class trains, but he thought it would not be right
to introduce any compulsory clause on the subject.
Public opinion would force upon railway proprietors such
charges as were necessary.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he thought it should
be provided in the Bill that seats and coverings be pro-
vided in the third-class trains for the humbler classes.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if there were
such careful accommodation, very few would travel in
second•class trains.

The Earl of DALHOUSIE said it might as well be
distinctly understood what the effect of the clause would
be ; it would compel any railway directors who ran any
species of train, to run a third-class likewise.—(Hear.)
Lord MONTEAGLE would add the amendment,
" providing the third-class train have covering and seats."
He thought that was so reasonable that nobody could
object to it.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said the poor would have
the superior advantage of travelling at twenty-five miles
an hour on Sundays, instead of twelve miles as on the
week days.
The Marquis of NORMANBY did not think speed
was the chief object of the poor man, who wished to get
out of town for recreation. He wished that the third-
class trains might stop at all the stations at which the
other trains stopped.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE did not agree with the
Noble Marquis, the effect of whose proposal would be to
interfere with private property in a most peremptory
and unreasonable manner, without any great State
necessity for so doing.
Lord COTTENHAM thought that third-class car-
riages should be attached to trains which stopped at every
station on the particular line, and not to those which
ran throughout with but few stoppages.
The Earl of RADNOR did not think the clause was
compulsory ; it only provided that if railway companies
ran trains on a Sunday, they should have third-class ce.r-
riages also. It did not compel them to run the trans on
a Sunday.
Lord CAMPBELLmoved that the debate be adjourned
till tc,-morrow.
The Bishop of LONDON repeated his objection to the
clause which provided that third-class carriages should
be run on a Sunday. He did not wish to prevent rail-
way companies from running such trains, but he could
not be a party to compelling them to do so. He re-
minded their Lordships that although these trains pro-
vided the means of recreation for a great number of per-
sons, yet a great number of servants were obliged to be
engaged in conjunction with those trains, and those
persons, of course, were deprived of their Sabbath day.
The Earl of MINTO said they were about to go to a
vote on the faith that if the Right Rev. Prelate's amend-
ment were carried, a clause providing third-class car-
riages for passengers would be proposed. This clause,
however, no one seemed to understand.
Lord MONTEAGLE thought their Lordships in
justice ought to place a clause in the Bill, providing that
all third-class carriages should be fitted up with seats,
and should also be covered.
Lord CAMPBELL thought it would be better to put
an end to this kind of hurly burly debate--(Laughter)—
and come to a vote on the clause proposed by the Noble
Lord opposito.
The Earl of MINTO opposed the adjournment of the
debate.

After a short conversation, the amendment was
agreed to.
On a clause introduced by Lord WHARNCLIFFE
being put,
Lord MONTEAGLE proposed, as an amendment,
that the third•class carriages should be provided with
seats, and protected from the weather.
Their Lordships divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against the amendment
The clauK, was then agreed to, and the Bill passed.
THE STATE OF TILE NAVY.

The Earl of MINTO said he rose in pursuance of the
notice which he had given the other evening, in relation
to the state of the navy. He was quite aware of the
inconvenience of introducing this topic at the present
time, on account of the feverish state of mind which
existed in France. No man could be more anxious than
himself for the preservation of peace, and nothing should
drop from him which was calculated to give umbrage to
the French Government. In calling their Lordship?
attention to the state of the navy, he begged to say that
he was no advocate for large naval establishments in
time of peace ;
but there was a limit to the economy
which should be practised in relation to such matters.
Considering how entirely the power and interests of this
country depended on the navy, it could not be desir-
able to reduce it to the very low state to which it had
now been brought. The confidence in peace was often
disappointed when its interruption seemed least likely.
In 1792, Mr. Pitt gave it as his opinion that such was
the security for peace in the then circumstances of the
country, that they might count with confidence
on its long continuance ; yet., within a year from that
period, the country entered upon the longest and bloodiest
war in which it had ever been engaged. Other in-
stances, of a similar kind, might b cited ; and he
thought the present aspect of affairs was not such as
should induce them to feel no apprehension. There
existed, unfortunately, on the part of no inconsiderable
cumber of the French people, a feeling of no friendly
nature towards this country ; and there were questions
then pending which might materially affect English
interests. The events which were now pending on
the coast of Africa were such as it was impossible to
contemplate without, at least, sow, degree of ap-
prehension. The aspect of afrairs throughout the
world was, in faet, such as to require some
degree of n7.-Faration on the part of this country.
The warm ;hich he felt on this subject was greatly in-
creased by the tone assumed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, who, whenever this subject was mentioned, gave
not the slightest intimation of their intention to increase
the existing force, or to put the country into a state in
which it would be enabled honourably to contend with it