The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-07 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 7, 1844.

treaty, yet there - had been since a supplementary
treaty, in which he believed it was provided for. Sir
Henry Pottinger had done all his work well ; but he
was not a d;plomatist, and he had been in some
respects remiss and unsystematic. He had written
to him (Lori Aberdeen) to say that the supplementary
treaty had -been signed ; but he had not sent it, or a
copy of it. But he could not doubt that it included some
provision on the subje,q, because Sir Henry Pot-
tinger had been before aware of the intention of the
Goverment. In a communication dated the November 4,
he (Lord A.) said that all the Government wished for
was a fair and unobstructed trade, and that we

and silk and flax factories, at work, empty, and together,
in each county of the 'United Kingdom.
COMMERCIAL TREATIES.

Mr. RICARDO gave notice of his intention of
bringing forward a motion relative to the commercia]
treaties between this and other countries.
IMPORT DUTIES—ISLE OF MAN.

Dr. BOWRING said he had a question to put to the
Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, in re-
ference to the import duties payable in the Isle of Man.
He wished to ascertain whether the Right Hon. Gentle-
man intended to abolish the 21 per cent. import duty on
British manufactures payable in the Isle of Man; and
whether he intended to supersede or modify the license
system in that island, of which so many complaints were
made.

desired -no advantages which should not be en-
joyed by the subjects of other Governments.—(Hear.)
With that knowledge in his possession at so early a
period, it was exceedingly probable that there might be
an amide to that effect in the supplementary treaty.
As soon as that supplementary treaty arrived, it would
be laid before the House, and he trusted that it would
be found to be as satisfactory to their Lordships and the
public as the original treaty had been.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. GLADSTONE said, in answer to the Hon. Gen-
tleman, he could state that they had proceeded so far m
the examination ot this subject, as to enable him to say that
in the course of the present session, he hoped to be able
to introduce a Bill which would certainly abolish the
21 per cent. ditty, payable on British manufactures,' and
which would also have the effect of very materially re-
stricting the licensing system, and exempting from its
operation many important commodities, as well as im-
proving in. other respects the commercial arrangements
of the island.
On the motion of Mr. CHARLES WOOD and Mr.
VERNON SMITH, several unopposed returns were
ordered. _ _ _

in the power of the Executive to institute a sui
and give the damages, by way of compensation,
to the party injured. The regulations regarding
children were not at present the same in silk
mills as in cotton and other factories, and he now
proposed to bring silk mills under precisely the same
regulations in respect to children as other factories.
He.had mentioned the principal provisions in the Bill, with
the exception only of that portion of the Bill of last
session to which attention had been more especially
directed. He did not mean to interfere with that por-
tion of the Bill which prescribes the rules regarding
education.(Hear.) A child from eight to thirteen
years old he proposed should not be employed continu-
ously for more than six hours and a half, and that the other
portion of the day' should be devoted to education. The
Government last year proposed to do something with re-
spect to the quality of the education given to the chil-
dren in factories. The enactments throughout the
existing law of factory education were, he was
afraid, almost illusory, for persons had been
employed that were little qualified, indeed, even for du-
ties so humble as those entrusted to them. Even the
stoker of the fninace was occasionally to be found
acting the part of schoolmaster ; and there was an
undeniable want of every proper facility and appa-
ratus in the shape of books and other requisites. In
fact, the system had been one not of education, but of
mere confinement, leaving the children without any
knowledge or instruction whatever. He (Sir James
Graham) was, however, bound to state, that
these evils were giving way, under the force of public
opinion, to a better state of things, and he indulged the
hope that there were now many mill-owners who were
sincerely anxious to supply the means of instruction to
those employed by them. The experience-of last year,
however, had determined him not to interfere with 'the
quality of the instruction now offered.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been the hope of the Government that a measure
providing scriptural teaching, superintended by the vi-
gilant inspection of officers appointed by the. Privy
Council on Education, would meet with general con-
currence. lie confessed that that hope, in his mind at
least, had vanished. Reliance must now be placed, and
it was not a vain reliance, after what they had lately
seen, but he confessed that with him it was a confident
hope—reliance must be placed on the honest rivalry
which had arisen between the Church and the Dissenters,
by whom he trusted great efforts would be made to dif-
fuse amidst the immense masses of the population sound
general knowledge in connexion with scriptural instruc-
tion. He was quite satisfied that if good schools were
established in the manufacturing districts the people
would have sufficient discrimination to prefer them to'
bad schools. If the Legislature provided that the children
should have sufficient leisure for instruction, he was confi-
dent that they would be instructed, and instructed in a
manner infinitely superior to anything that had yet been
witnessed. At all events he was not prepared at pre-
sent, either directly or indirectly, to interfere with the
quality of the instruction to be afforded ; all that be
asked the House to do was, to allow leisure to the chil-
dren, which would secure for them, without being over-
strained by labour, an opportunity of attending the
school for at least three hours every day, with the ex-
ception of Saturday, which was a half holiday. He
would express an earnest hope that the effect of the dif-
fusion of knowledge, based upon sound principles of in-
struction and upon religious truth, would have the effect
of averting that which, if left unchecked, would be a
source of the greatest and most serious national injury
—the evil of a dense population living without know-
ledge, without instruction, and without religion. The
Right Hon. Baronet then moved for leave to introduce a
Bill to amend the Factory Act.
Mr. HUME said he was surprised that the Govern-
ment should continue to introduce measures like that
which had just been announced. If they interfered
with any class in this manner they should interfere with
all. They should not confine themselves to the em-
ployment of one class at particular times, but they
should extend the measure to every branch of manu-
factures. It would appear as though experience were
lost upon those who made these attempts at legislation.
Here were parents, children, and manufacturers all in-
terested in the subject of employment as one affecting
the means of subsistence, and yet the Government were
attempting to throw every difficulty in the way of its
fair exercise. It would be much better if the Govern-
ment would take into consideration the cause of that
anxiety to which reference had been made. It was the
want of employment. What was it which pre-
vented employment ? Bad legislation. Why not
remove that instead of attempting to bolster
up evils by this patchwork legislation ? All
experience showed that measures of this kind
could not succeed, and be was anxious that
the Government should look to causes' and not
attempt to correct the results of bad legislation.
They ought not to restrict the employment of children
in one manufactory, and leave it unrestricted in another.
Education should be made a national object, and they
should require that every child should be educated. He
greatly deprecated the requiring certificates, considering
it extremely objectionable. It was to be, provided, too,
that in all instances of accident, loss of limb, or injury,
an action at law might lie against the proprietor of the
factory. Why should not railway companies and other
bodies be subjected to the same process? He thought
that this part of the measure required to be well con-
sidered. If there ever was a demand upon the Govern-
ment, it was that they should provide an efficient mea-
sure of general education, leaving religion to the different
religious sects. But the present measure was one to
which he entertained the strongest objection.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he believed
there could be no greater evil than the absorp-
tion of the bulk of the *male population in
factory employments. He deprecated the system of
employing persons in factories for so long a period as
that contemplated by the Bill. His Right Hon. Friend
had referred to the authority upon which he founded
the measure he was now about to bring in, and said that
it was derived from the Inspectors of Factories, but he
(Mr. Wortley) wished that his Right Hon. Friend had
paid more attention to some suggestions which had been
made by those gentlemen. Mr. Saunders, in his last
Report, had stated, in language than which nothing
could be stronger, that the labour of persons of the age
contemplated in the present Bill should in no instance
be allowed to exceed eleven hours during the day. Mr.
Horner expressed a similar opinion also. He thought
with those exceptions that the measure was likely to
effect much good, and to improve the operation of the
present Act.
Mr. HINDLEY felt glad that this Bill had been in-
troduced, because he thought it would be an improve-
ment upon the former Act. He perfectly concurred with
the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that an alte-
ration should be made in the number of hours during
which it was proposed to require the young persons to
labour, and that this subject required the most serious
consideration of the House. He should wish the lion.
Member for Montrose, who took a very abstract view
of this question, to consider the facts of the matter. He
Hindley) considered that while the Government
allowed certain privileges to the manufacturers, they also
should 'retain the right to themselves of inter-
fering when a system was adopted which was
likely to produce great physical and moral evils.
They heard much of their wealth and of their great pro-
duction; but if that vast amount of production was tak-
ing place at the sacrifice .of the health. morals, and in-
telligence of the people, it might be purchase& like gold,
too dearly. They had been told that their interference
in this subject would endanger their foreign commerce.
This he disproved by showing that, under the present
Act, the manufacture of cotton had increased 130 per
cent. Public opinion was in favour of the reduction of
the amount of human labour ; he alluded to the exer-
tions made by the drapers' assistants, and the persons
employed in other occupations, to procure a curtailment
of the. hours of labour. The drapers of Manchester had
ceased to employ their assistants on Saturday after-
noons. There was a general impression that human la-
bour had been too much employed in this country; that
it had been tasked till human strength sank beneath it
He contended that, with respect to the cotton trade, a
shortening of the hours of labour would be attended
with advantage in rendering the amount of labour
more proliortionate to the limited supply of cotton they
had this year received from America. He urged
on the Government the propriety, of taking
up this question in a right and determined
spirit. It was not for him, as their political opponent
(as he generally was). to tell them what to do in order
to briug the people of England around them in sup-
port of their exertions. They had the means of doing
so, by showing a determined spirit in support of the in-
terests of the labouring classes.
Lord ASHLEY said the House was well aware how
inconvenient it was to discuss the principle of a Bill in
its earliest stage.—(Hear, hear.) He therefore would
not attempt to occupy their attention at that moment,
but he could not fee satisfied without rising to express
his gratitude to the Government for the advance they
had made.—(Hear, hear.) He would not advance his
own views and sentiments then, but simply repeat his
thanks to Ministers for the advance now made.—
(Cheers.)—Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
POOR-RATES IN IRELAND.
Major MACNAMARA, on behalf of Mr. F.
French, moved for a return of dates on which, and the
places where, the military or police have been employed
in enforcing the collection of poor-rates in Ireland,
between the Ist day of January, 1643, and the Ist day
of January, 1844 ; specifying the number of men em-
ployed, and the amount collected, on each occasion; and
also a return of the date and amount of each rate made
in the different poor-law unions in Ireland, under the
provisions of the Act 1 and 2 Vic. c. 56, for the more
effectual relief of the destitute poor in that country;
specifying the amount of each rate remaining uncollected
on the Ist day of January, 1844.
SELECT COMMITTEE ON_RAILWAYS,

in point of fact, where the poor railway traveller used
to pay threepence. he now paid sixpence, and where
sixpence, a shilling. To return, however, to the pro-
posed Committee. Amongst the names now pro-
posed by the Government, he could count not less than
five who were directors in railways, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself (Mr. Gladstone), who would, of
course be the Chairman of the Committee, though not a
director, frankly admitted that he was a considerable
railway shareholder. He (Mr. Wallace) in the course
he now proposed to; dopt, would proceed in the fairest
possible way, for he should object at once to the first
name, that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, being allowed
to remain on the list. He meant no personal disrespect to
that Right Hon. Gentleman; far from it, but he frankly
owned he looked with great suspicion at the entire com-
position of the proposed Committee. He had no other
name to propose, so little did he care who were upon it ;
his only object being that the Committee should be
so constituted as to be entitled to the confidence of
the public. He moved that the first name be omitted.
Mr. GLADSTONE would only say ono word upon
the subject. If he had found that the rule in forming
these committees was to keep out the names of parties
who might be supposed to be interested, he need not tell
the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Greenock, that he
should have been very glad to have acted upon it, and so
evaded the duties which must necessarily have devolved
upon himself, as Chairman of this Committee. But he
found, on former occasions, that parties directly inter-
ested in railways did not, under similar circumstances,
feel justified in shrinking from the performance of those
duties on the ground of personal interests. It was a
great mistake to suppose that any uniform feeling per-
vaded the parties interested in the several railways already
formed, and those which were contemplated. In point
of fact, the interests of parties connected with the old
railways were distinctly different from those who were
now, or who might be hereafter, connected with the new
lines. Again, on those railways which were called high 7
fare lines, the interests were anything but identical with
those which were known as low-fare lines. If the
House, on the present occasion, chose to adopt a new
principle, he could have no personal objection to it what-
ever. He only wished it to be understood that, in the
present instance, he had acted according to the princi-
ples which had been heretofore laid down."

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that undoubtedly, in ap-
pointing a Committee for any interest, mercantile or
commercial, it was usual to put a certain number of
persons on it expressly interested in the sub-
ject • and he did not see why the House
should depart from the rule in this instance.
Certainly, therefore, if the Hon. Member for Greenock
persisted in his amendment, he should vote against him,
as, from the official situation which was held by the
Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, not-
withstanding the circumstances which had been named,
he thought it most important that his services should be
retained. It was, however, quite another question whe-
ther the railway interest did not too greatly preponderate
in the Committee now nominated.—(Cheers.) In look-
ing over the names, it certainly was his (Mr. Labou-
chere's) impression that the railway interest was repre-
sented in it to a degree which might deprive the'
Committee of that weight in public opinion which it was
desirable every Committee of that House should possess.
—(Loud cheers.) That principle, however, was a totally
different one to the urgent and inconvenient rule which
the Hon. Member for Greenock desired to have intro-
duced, and, therefore, he must vote against the amend-
ment, and for the retention of the name of the Right
Hon the President of the Board of Trade.—(Hear.)

Mr. HUME said the principle was as suited l;y his
Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock, however diffe-
rent the practice might have been of late years. He
could speak from his own experience'on this subject, for
he had himself challenged the votes of Mr. Pascoe Gren-
fell and others, as shareholders in the St. Katharine's
Docks, when the Bill authorising their erection was be-
fore the House. The Bill was brought up ; it was op-
posed ; and on a division being called, and before it took
place, he challenged the names referred to as perions who,
being interested, ought not to be allowed to vote. On con-
sideration these votes were struck out.—(Hear, hear.)
The House, therefore, had acted on a former occasion
on the principle laid down by his Hon. Friend, the Mem-
ber for Greenock, and what had been advanced by the
Right Hon. Member for Taunton, (Mr. Labouchere),
was not wholly correct. For his own part, he (Mr.
Hume) considered it was too much the practice to put
interested parties on the Committees of that House.
A Committee was appointed to ascertain facts, and to
get at the real merits and the truth of the case. It was
desirable to have parties upon it who were both for
and against the object in view. A Committee so con-
stituted would always give them the best information,
and upon that the House would always decide safely
what course to pursue. He had always been of.opinion,
that no individual whatever should be allowed to sit on
a Committee who had any personal interest in it what-
ever. He had tried often to carry that principle out.
He repeated, that his Hon. Friend, the Member for
Greenock, was right in his principle, though, as to
modern instances, not in his practice, and he could not
sit down without expressing his surprise at, and disap-
proval of, the great number of railway directors no-
minated on the Committee just submitted to the House.
Lord HOWICK contended, that the case of the St.
Katherine's Docks did not apply in the present instance.
There the parties challenged were directly interested
in the Bill before the House. Here a Committee was
wanted merely to judge what general regulations were
desirable in the management of railways. The conse-
quence of acting on the principle laid down by the Hon.
Member for Greenock, would be to drive from the Com-
mittee all the information and experience which Mem-
bers of that House, being railway directors and proprie-
tors, could bring to bear upon the subject. But he
(Lord Howick) could not help thinking that as the
Committee was now constituted, the railway interest
was too strongly represented—(Cheers)—and that gen-
tlemen, holding high situations in these great under-
takings were not the most proper instruments to effect
the object that House was supposed to have in view.--•
(Loud cheers.) Why, these were probably the very '
men they might want for witnesses.—(Hear, hear.) It
was bad to have one person as a witness, and the same,
person afterwards to draw conclusions.—(Hear, hear.)'
He hoped the names of the directors would be withdrawn.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the Government could not do
otherwise than observe that the feeling of the House
was strongly opposed to the Committee as now proposed.
In his opinion every one of the names upon this Com-
mittee had been unduly chosen.—(Hear, hear.) Amongst
a great number of other names upon it he found that of
Mr. Russell, who was Chairman of the Directors of the
Great Western Railway. This he thought most un-
warrantable, because the Committee would have to enter
into negotiations with several of the railway companies.
Now he would ask who were the persons to decide upon
the manner in which those negotiations were to be car-
ried on ? The Hon. Member to whom he had just al-
luded was one of those who was most deeply interested
in the matter, and in his capacity of chairman was a
person who would be very likely to come before the
Committee as a witness, and also would be one most in-,
terested in the negotiations. He could go through all
that Committee, and point out scarcely one name un-
connected with either the Government or some railroad,
while there was not one representative of any of those
large towns to which there was a continual influx of
travellers. He should conclude by entreating that some
more fitting Members should be selected for this Com-
mittee, who would be likely to attend more to general
than individual interests.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not entirely agree with the
Hon. and Learned Member for Bath in saying that no
director of a railway_ should be allowed to be placed on
the Committee. He thought that to a certain degree
the fact of having the practical remarks of those gentle-
men would be likely to have a beneficial result. With
respect to the Noble Lord the Member for Totnes, he
should say that he had been one of 'the members of the
Committee, and at that time he had no connexion with
any railway. He (Lord John Russell) thought that a
matter for consideration, whether, if the directors of one
railway were upon the Committee, those persons con-
nected with other lines of railroad, who did not possess
the same privilege, might have reason to complain?
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it most desirable that
some railway directors should be placed upon the Com-
mittee. He differed from the Noble Lord that persons
who were shareholders were more fit to be on the Com-
mittee than those who were directors, for many of the
shareholders were more interested in the matter than
the directors. There was Mr. Glynn, who was so ex-
tensive a holder of shares as to be qualified to act as a
director. If the Committee wanted to have the informa-
tion of experienced and practical men, who were con-
versant with the subject under investigation, he thought
they could not do better than to have a fair proportion
of railway directors. At the same time, while he ap-
proved of having a fair proportion of directors upon the
Committee, he should state that he did not con-
sider the question a new one. Previous to
forming the Committee, the first thing he did
was to procure a list of the names which
were upon the former Committee of 1840, and he
raw there the names of many gentlemen connected with
railways, amongst whom were the Hon. Member for
Sunderland, who declined to act upon this Committee,
although he was a person of great experience in those
matters. There was also the Hon. Baronet the Member
for Leicester, and the Honourable Member for
Clitheroe, who was a Director of the South Eastern
Railway, which was different from all the others, being
what is termed a low-fare railway, and it was on account
of the intimate acquaintance which that Hon. Gentle-
man had with railway matters that he selected him to be
one of the Committee. He admitted that the subject
was one of great difficulty. According to the rules of
the House a Committee could not consist of more than
fifteen Members. Since coming into the House he had
received many communications from gentlemen con-
nected with various railway schemes in different parts
of the country, complaining that their interests were not
adequately represented in the Committee. If it should
be the pleasure of the House to depart from the rule li-
miting the number of a Committee, although the prece-
dent might be objectionable, still it would tend to re •
move many of these difficulties; but if it was determined
to adhere to the number of fifteen, he did not see how
theycould appoint Members representing all these diffe-
rent interests on the Committee. He did not
himself consider it a matter of importance that
three or four directors of railway companies
were included among the members of the Com-
mittee. The labours of the Committee were merely
preliminary, and if it should appear that any recom-
mendation of the Committee had been carried solely by
the votes of the railway directors it would lose a, great
deal of the weight which would be otherwise attached to
it.—(Hear, hear.) There were many other gentlemen
whom he should have been anxious to have seen on that
Committee had it been practicable. There was the
Hon. Member for Kendal, who had on a former occasion
taken a very active part in the revision of the Standing
Orders relating to the introduction of Railway Bills ;
and there was the Hon. Member for Inverness, who had
also taken a great interest in the subject. He should
have been rejoiced to have seen both those Hon. Gentle-

Mr. W. GLADSTONE moved, that the Select Com-
mittee on Railways should consist of the following gen-
tlemen :—Mr. William Gladstone, Mr. Labouchere,
Lord Seymour, Mr. Wilson Patten, Viscount Sandon,
Mr, Gishorne, Lord Granville Somerset, Sir John East-
hope; Mr. Hamilton, Mr. Russell, Mr. Patrick Maxwell
Stewart, Mr. Green, Mr. Maclean, Mr. Thornely, and
Mr. Cardwell. _ _

Mr. WALLACE said, he should now propose the
amendment of which he had given notice, and which
was to the effect that no person should be on the Com-
mittee who had a direct interest in any railway. In
doing this, he believed he was bringing under the con-
sideration of the House, no novel principle, but one
which had obtained for a very considerable time—
namely, that no Honourable Member would allow his
name to remain on a Committee who had a direct pecu-
niary interest in the matter on which that Committee
had to sit. Before he went further, he wished to state
that what he had advanced last evening in reference to
a railway in his own immediate locality was
strictly and substantially correct, and that the concession
made by the Government, on the subject of the railway
tax, instead of being used, as it ought to have been, to
diminish the fares of the third-class carriages, had been
used by the directors to enhance their own dividends.
Instead of reducing fares, they increased profits, so that

...
men on the Committee. The Hon. and Learned Mem- IHe felt that no individual Member ought to undertake
ber for Bath supposed that he was wedded to his own [ or attempt to proceed in a course with regard to the
opinion on matters of detail. He could assure the lion. ! supplies, which would not be supported by public
and Learned Gentleman that he was perfectly sensible of . op:nion out of doors, or that would not be supported by
the difficulties which he should experience in adjusting 1 a sufficient number of Members in the House.—(Hear,
these details, and that he should be glad of any sug- I hear.) He was not the man to undertake this. He
gestion as to the best method of proceeding. With re- I wished to bring his proposition fairly before the House
gard to the specific proposition before the House, if i and the public, and it would then be for the advocates
they postponed the question then they would be com- of popular rights and the public to take any course.
pelled to deal with these difficulties at some future day, they might think best. Such a proceeding as that of
and considering the number of applications for Railway raising the yiestion of grievances on the motion of sup-
Bills that would probably be made in the course of the plies, ought to be supported by public opinion, or else it
session, he thought it important that they should pro- I could have no weight, nor could it ever be f
any use.
ceed with the inquiry at the earliest possible period. He did not contemplate a system of factious adjourn-
Mr. HAW ES gave the Right Hon. Gentleman full meats, but his object was, if possible, to et a
credit for his anxiety to do justice to this very impor- majority with him. Although he might •on this
taut subject, but he had not answered the objection made occasion be defeated by the majority, yet he would never
by the Noble Lord, that the railway interest was too despair of ultimately obtaining a majority with him,
strongly represented. The Committee would have to He did not charge the present Government in particular
consider not only the measures necessary to be adopted with inattention, fie. other Governments had been
for all future railways, but also what alterations the equally culpable, and he knew that the late Government
protection of the public might require to' be made in the was as much to blame as the present one. lie was
regulations of existing railways, so as to protect the aware that be should be opposed in his motion by
public against the monopoly which might be created by perhaPs the principal supporters of the late Government,
a concentration of interests. lie objected to increasing and he therefore wished it to be distinctly understood
I
the number of Members beyond fifteen, and he suggested that he made no accusation against the present Govern-
the propriety of suspending the appointment of the I ment. He wished to impress on the House the necessity
Committee. There was a great preponderance of rail- of inquiry. He said that if the Government refused to
way interests among its members, and he would suggest grant • that inquiry, it then became the duty
to the Right Hon. Gentleman the propriety of substitut- of that House, as a body, to refuse the
ing some other names for those of gentlemen connected supplies until such inquiry were obtained. This was a
with railways.—(Cheers.) He should wish to see his constitutional principle which he was desirous of carry-
Hon. Friend the Member for Kendal on that Committee. ing out.--(Hear, hear.) He wished the House to reflect
His lion. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath had upon the situation in which it was placed with the coun-
given notice of emotion on the subject ofrailwa,ys that pre- try. It stood, as it were, as a criminal at the bar, the
supposed some attention to the subject. He should like charges against it being its own votes.—(Hear, hear.)
to see the Hon. and Learned Gentleman appointed to He did not wish to trespass further on the attention of
the Committee. He trusted that the appointment of the the House, but he trusted that it would be coneeded
Committee would be postponed after the objections which that he had brought his motion forward temperately,
had been made that night. He trusted the House would be for he .had endeavoured to avoid everything wis;ch
spared the pain of dividing upon the names of individual mightfsr a momentgive offence to any one.—(Hear.) TL 0
gentlemen ; but he also hoped that for some of those Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving—" That whereas,
names the Right Hon. Gentlemen would substitute those complaints have been made to this House on various oc-
of Members unconnected with railway interests. casions, by petition, to the effect that the people are
Mr. P. M. STEWART hoped the House would feel no suffering under unjust and partial legislation, and under
delicacy in disposing of his name. It had been put in the effects of monopolies of various kinds, political
without any consultation with himself, and the first and ecclesiastical, created and kept in existence for the
knowledge he had had of his appointment had been ob- benefit of favoured classes ; that by the taxes imposed
tamed from reading the votes of the morning. He felt on food, for the support of one of these monopolies, the
grateful for the honour which had been conferred on supply is restricted and the price raised, whilst at the
him, but he was not at all ambitions of serving on the same time the demand for labour is diminished and
Committee. It would be ungrateful in him to decline to wages reduced, and the profits of manufacturing and
serve, and he would at once state that he was an ho- commercial industry deeply injured ; that the burthen
norary director of the Greenock Railway, although he of general taxation has been increased to an intolerable
never interfered in its management, nor was he a great extent, by an extravagant expenditure in every depart-
holder of railway stock. If the construction of the ment of the State, and that this taxation is so imposed
Committee rendered it at all liable to suspicion, he would as to press most oppressively mid heavily on the indus-
recommend the Right Hon. Gentleman to postpone the trial portion of the community ; that laws have
appointment of it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, how- been pas•ed injurious to the rights of the
ever, was the best judge as to fhe proper course of pro- people, and arbitrary proceedings of Government
ceeding to be adopted. He had been put on the Com- have taken place dangerous to public liberty ;
inittee without his consent, and he was not offended in that in order to sustain this system an unconstitutional
consequence ; neither should he take offence if he were amount of standing army is kept up for the home ser-
put off without his consent. vice, and the ancient constitutional constable superseded
Mr. WARBURTON thought it right to state, as allu- by the 'hired police ; all which would be wholly unne-
sion had been made to him, that there were reasons why cessary if the grievances of the people were redressed,
.he should not be appointed on the Committee. He had and just and impartial government established. It is
no experience whatever as to the details of railway re- further complained, that these and other grievances art.
gulation. He held a chief office in a society which re- produced by the bad constitution of the Commons'
quired so much of his attention, that his punctual House ; that by the limitation of the suffrage, the long
attendance at the Committee would be impossible ; and duration of Parliaments, and corruption and undue in-
although, at pfesent, he was not a subscriber to any fluences in the election of representatives, this House,
railway undertaking, yet he saw a notice of an applica- as at present constituted, does not truly represent,
tion about to be made for a Railway Bill to which he and is not responsible to the people, and therefore
had no doubt his constituents would expect that he does not legislate for their interests ; that, notwith-
should subscribe ; and, therefore, the objection which standing frequent respectful petitions presented to this
had been made to railway proprietors would equally House, the complaints of the people have neither been
apply to him. He complained that there was no one inquired into nor redressed ; that from these causes an
on the Committee to represent the travelling public. alarming state of discontent prevails generally over the
He did not know whether the Hon. Member for Wolver- United Kingdom : It is therefore the immediate duty of'
hampton possessed any railway shares ; he no doubt this House to make inquiry into these complaints ; and
would defend the interests of the public ; but he thought as this House. can have no right to vote supplies except
there ought to be persons on the Committee who were as being the representatives of the people, it is impera-
neither directors nor shareholders. He hoped the tively necessary that the charges brought against its
House would stick to the number of fifteen, for if once present constitution and competency in the petitions
they infringed on that rule, they would never be able to which have been received and recorded among its Pro-
adhere to it afterwards. ceedings, should be inquired into, and, if found to be
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON trusted that if the name of justly made, redressed, before this House shall proceed
any gentleman were substitued for his on the Committee to the voting of supplies."
it would be some gentleman connected with Ireland. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said his Hon. Friend having
Sir JOHN EASTHOPE had no objection to have the stated so clearly his views on this question, he had lict
name of some other gentleman substituted for that of hesitation in seconding the resolution. He confessed
himself, if such were the desire of the House. that if it had involved the principle of a small minority,
Mr. GLADSTONE would not object to postpone the factiously opposing the granting of the supplies against
appointment of the Committee as so many gentleman a large majority, he would not have been prepared to
had expressed their willingness to retire. have taken that course. The object of this motion was
Sir G. GREY hoped that, in the reconstruction of simply:to inquire into the grievances of the people. The
the Committeee, the Right Hon. Gentlemen would take first important point to establish was the existence of
care that every part of the country should be adequately those grievances. His Hon. Friend had stated generallsr represented.
what he considered to be those grievances, as they had
Mr. WALLACE had not made a personal objection been.described in petitions which had been laid on the table
to any one, and he trusted that no misunderstanding of that House. His Hon. Friend had not in his motion would exist on the subject. gone any thing approaching so far as examples which
The motion was then withdrawn. might be found on the Journals of that House, but espe-
' MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND. cially in the opinion expressed by the Noble. Lord the
On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE, the following Member for London (Lord J. Russell) when he introduced
Members were nominated as the Select Committee on into that House the Reform Bill. The Noble Lord
the Merchant Seamen's Fund :—Mr. William Gladstone, on that occasion stated to the House the object he
Sir Howard Douglas, Mr. Barclay, Mr. Lyall, Mr. had in view in proposing that Bill, in the following
Hodgson Hinde, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Rice, Sir John words :—." I propose that the people should send to this
Hanmer, Captain Gladstone, Admiral Dundas, Mr. House their real representatives, to deliberate upon their
Corry, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Ross, Mr. Hutt, and Mr. wants, to consult upon their interests, to consider their
Philip Miles. grievances, and to attend to their desires." Now, nothing
SUPPLY—REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES. wasexpressed in the resolution proposed by his (Mr.W.'s)
On the SPEAKER being about to read the Order of the lion. Friend, that was not expressed in language much
Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of stronger, in his opinion by the Noble Lord, when he in-
, Supply, troduced the Reform Bill. He would ask any Hon.
Mr. WALLACE said that he had some petitions to Member whether the Reform Bill had produced the re-
present. sult anticipated by the Noble Lord ? He believed that
The SPEAKER informed the Hon. Gentleman that every honest man would answer in the negative. When
he could not present them. that Bill was introduced, the entire people of this coun-
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose to bring for- try exhibited a willingness to risk even their lives and
ward the motion of which he had given notice. He ad- property in defence of that measure, which they anti-
' mitted it was an unusual motion, but the reason he cipated would secure to them those benefits which the
brought it forward was, that there was not a fair repre- Noble Lord had described. Their anticipations had
sentation of the people in that House, and that their been attended with nothing but disappointment. Some-
grievances were not attended to by the House. They times three millions of the people presented a petition,
complained of the monopolies on corn, one of the prin.- in which they stated that that House did not represent
cipal of which was the tax on food, by which the manu- them: They had many examples of proceedings in that
facturing and commercial interests of the eounteysuffered. House which went farther than the motion of
He would not at present enter on this subject. They his Hon. Friend. In the year 1642, when the Monarch
complained of the colonial monopolies, of which the of that day attempted to raise taxes without
principal was the sugar monopoly. They complained of the authority of the House of Commons, when he pro-
the banking monopolies, and the East India monopoly, ceeded to accomplish his object, the House of Commons
and above all, they complained of the monopoly of the resisted the arbitrary attempt, and the first great and
Church. This was a monopoly felt particularly in important step they took in' opposition to the tyrannical
Ireland, and it was now being felt in Scotland. attempt was to give direction to the Lords of the Tres-
'The people complained of an enormous burden sury to stop the supplies. This step not only put a stop
of taxation caused by wars, which would not have been to the King's object, but ultimately led the Sovereign to
undertaken if the people were truly represented. He the scaffold. Again, in the reign of William the Third.
did not want, however, that the public credit should be. That Monarch, in ascending the throne, entered into a
destroyed by not paying the interest of the debt incurred compact with the people, which compact was usually
by those wars. The people complained of the manner in called " The Bill of Rights." As soon as he had as-
which the public money was expended, and the system tended the throne, he neglected his engagement, and
of taxation. They complained of their rights being in- endeavoured, by all the means in his power, to avoid it.
vaded, and of unjust laws being passed. They complained The House of Commons and the House of Lords had
of the new poor-law, but the principle of this law he did then virtue enough to enforce that Monarch's compliance
not intend to enter upon. One of the Acts invading the with his engagement ; and, in 1683, a Bill passed both
rights of the people was the Arms Act. That Act could Houses of Parliament, by which Parliaments were made
not have been carried if the people were truly repro- triennial. That Bill was rejected by the King. In the
sented, and it appeared now that the branding of the next year the' Parliament repassed that Bill, and the
arms would render it impracticable. But what he corn. Parliament, according to Burnet, told the King that
plained of was, the arbitrariness of the Act. This, unless he gave his assent to that 8:11, that he would re-
amongst other things, produced the cry fur the repeal ceive no supplies, and no supplies were voted until that
of the union. The people frequently asked for inquiry, Bill received the Royal assent. The first and most im-
but it was uniformly denied. There was an inquiry de- portant proposition in the resolution of his lion. Friend
mended respecting the conduct of certain judges, but it was that that House did not represent the people.
was refused. They asked for inquiry into the standing flow did the question stand with regard to the represen-
army. There were, he believed, 38,000 regu- tation of the people in that House ? Five millions out
Jar troops, and 9,000 armed constabulary, in Ireland. of six millions of the people were without any voice at
These would be entirely unnecessary if the all in the representation ; yet two-thirds of the taxation
jast demands of the people were attended to. were borne by the non-represented classes. The Right
But what they principally complained of was the state Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Governthent,
of the representation. Only one in seven had the fran- in introducing the income-tax, said he could not consent
chise, and could that be considered a fair representation to increase the burdens on the lower classes, saying he
of the people? Another reason why the people con- could bring conclusive proof to show that taxation had
sidered that this House did not truly represent them, reached its limits.—(Hear, hear.) These were the opi-
was that it was returned by corrupt practices. - This nions of the Right Hon. Baronet. Judge Blackstone
House received the petitions of the people, and had laid it down as his opinion that the people should ac-
them recorded, but while they did not contradict their quiesce in the judgment of the law because they had a
grievances, they refused all inquiry. One of the peti- voice in the making of those laws through their repre-
tions presented to that House was signed by 3,500,000 sentatires. But what could be said for the five millions
persons. In that petition they used the following strong who were without representation ; and yet what could
language. " Your House, as at present constituted, has be done without them? Re would next turn to' the con.
not been elected by, and acts irresponsive of, the people. stitution of that House itself. What could be more
It only represents parties, and legislates for the benefit monstrous, more base, than the bribery so often proved
of the few without any regard for the welfare or the in- before the Election Committees ? When Mr. Maddock;
terests of the many." Thus, they challenged the House brought a charge against a Member of that .House, at
to the proof of what they said, but they were disre- the time of Lord Castlereagh, that Noble Lord said
garded. On the occasion when the Hon. Member for the sale of seats in that House was as notorious
Finsbury moved that no person should sit on Election as the sun at noon-day. The Honourable
Committees. who would not make a declaration that he Member then quoted several instances of bribery at
had not used any undue means to procure his return, elections, and then alluded to the deficiency of voters.
only 19 Members voted in favour of his motion, thus Seventy-one towns returned to that House 121
acknowledging the charges made against them, and Members, with a constituency less in number then the
that they were not in a condition to deny those charges. West Riding of Yorkshire; 20 towns, with a consti-
This House then stood in the position of an accused tuency of 2,923, returned the same number of Members
party. 'lt permitted no inquiry, and it did ' not as 20 other towns, having a constituency of 153,940.
deny the charges which were brought against it. Lord Chatham said that taxation without representation
The inquiry that was demanded in the petition of the was unconstitutional. Locke and Lord Grey were of a
Char-ists was refused,:the numbers being 287 against it similar opinion, opposed to these opinions were the facts,
and 49 for it. The House having been in that position, that Harwich returned four Members to Parliament,
he maintained that it was not in a fit condition to impose whilst the West Riding of Yorkshire and the great town
taxes. The forms of the House allowed the people to of Manchester returned only the same number. The
call for redress of grievances before any supplies were taxation had increased in an alarming proportion. IA
granted. Those rules were framed for the purpose of 1836, the expenditure was 44,200,0001, in 1843,
defending the liberty of the subject. It was true that 51,700,000/s being 7,500,000/ more than the
those rules ought not to be taken advantage of except taxation of 1836, and the difference was suffi-
under extraordinary circumstances, but he was there to cient to maintain every department of the United
maintain that those extraordinary circumstances now States annually, and yet that great country had
existed. It was not his object, as he had before stated, paid its debts to the last farthing.—(Hear, and laughter.)
to force the House to commit itself to a particular grin- He spoke of the Government of the United States, and
ciple of reform. His resolution merely required the not of the States themselves, but he believed they too,
House to consider the demands of the people, and whe- would discharge their debts.—(lronical cries of " Hear,
they there were faults in the system of representation or hear.) The people were subjected to a greater taxa.
not. He was not going to abandon those principles tion now than in any one year during the last war. lle
which he had declared, in his opinion, should be the took for his authority one of the most enlightened
foundation of reform. But he did not wish to commit men of his day—who had written with as much ability
the House, or any Honourable Gentleman who might as any man living, and proved himself to be well ac-
vote with him, to this particular principle. lie quainted with the position of this country—he meant
wished the House to go into an inquiry, in order the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
to ascertain whether that principle was a right one. Home Department.—(Hear; hear, and a laugh.) Like
It might be said that this motion of his would be a all prudent men, the Right Hon. Baronet made all his
nonentity, unless it were carried further. If the House statements under the mark ,• and what did he state ?
should affirm this resolution, he should then move an- In the year 1812, he said, the hmount of the
other resolution, to the effect that the House should taxes was 61,200,0001., the price of gold 51. Is. per
either appoint a Select Committee or resolve itself into ounce ; in 1813 the amount of the taxes was 73;300,0t01)711:,
a Committee to inquire into the state of the representa- the price of gold 51. 6s. lid. per ounce. In thessfirscom.
tion. It might, however, be said that this inquiry would stance there was a depreciation in the currency,
cen ; in
the
last a long time, and that the supplies could' not be die- pared with the standard value, of 38} pelt' L.
pensed with for so long a time as that inquiry would second instance the depreciations
wtaandard, with gold at
Re-
past. He did not wish to impede the granting the sup- duce the amount to the preiseitnt
would appear that the
plies. But if the Government should think fit to grant 3/. 17s. lop. per ounce, and
five
years was forty-five
s_4 per cent. Re-
this inquiry he would be ready to vote for the supplies average taxation i those
for three, four, or six months, or as long as that inquiry millions, ten millsoo,r:f,s less than
He ould ask every honest man on the
should last. The question now raised was not whether year
i than on the twenty-eighth
heaceea.rth whether the poor of this country had
a minority was prepared to refuse the supplies. He
wished a majority to go with him in affirming the prin-
But this was a mere difference in the value of
1 'face
grof
the
for complaint when such a state of things
ciple that grievances should be redressed . before
etrhae etTiosted.o
the currency ; they must also take into account the
supplies were granted. It was not his
vote should be ,taken on this question, to
intention,
deterioration in every branch of industry. Take the ars
hear.) tisan, the mechanic, and the labourer; he ventured
further in opposition to the Government.—(Hear,
sr
. .
. .

r.