The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-19 00:00:00

' believed they had done all they could safely
attempt at the present time. If he were to
authorise the forcible restriction of labour to the extent
of preventing the adult in cotton factories, in silk
factories, in the lace and woollen factories, to ten hours ;
whatever his sympathies might be, whatever might be
his feelings, he, with his colleagues, had no other motive
than that of promoting what he believed most consistent
with the public welfare; and acting, from that motive, he
could not acquiesce in the proposal of his Noble Friend
for forcibly limiting labour to the extent of ten hours in
mills and factories.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had listened with great anxiety
to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ; there
was never a question on which he felt it more difficult to come
to a conclusion, or one the issue of which was more important.
He would not attempt to give an answer to what the Right Hon.
Baronet ( Sir J. Graham) had laid some stress upon, as to his
( Lord J. Russell's) having taken a part on a former occasion
inconsistent with his support of the present motion. He did
not think this was an opportunity to return any taunt what-
ever.—( Sir James Graham intimated it was not meant
as a taunt.) If it was not so meant he should
certainly say, whatever might be the apparent inconsistency of
taking that course, where the interest of so many thousands of
the working classes was involved,he should be ashamed of himself
were he not ready to expose himself to any charge of incon-
sistency, if he were persuaded that those interests would induce
him to take we course now, rather than another that he had
taken formerly. He was not satisfied with the statement,
able as it was, of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorset.
He was of opinion that the argument of the Noble Lord way
liable to the reply of the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the con-
clusion he ought to come to was, that women and children, at
all events, should be totally excluded from working in factories,
and that the system ought to be altered, if not abridged in es-
sential details. But he must say that the course which the
discussion had taken, and the various speeches made by gentle-
men thoroughly acquainted with the details of the factory system,
very much tended to clear the question of the difficulties in which
the too comprehensive statement of the Noble Lord had in-
volved it. Let him consider fur a moment what the amount of
difference was in the proposition made by successive Govern-
ments, and that proposed by the present Government, and the
course which the Noble Lord now proposed.—( Hear, hear.)
He must say that, listening to the Right Hon. Gentleman's
speech, and his arguments on the subject that night, he would
suppose that he objected to any legislation on the subject.—
( Hear, hear.) When he told them that persons were employed
for sixteen and eighteen hours in calico-printing and in the
manufacture of silk, it would be supposed that he was an
enemy to all interference ; yet the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman himself proposed that the hours during which young
persons should labour, should be limited to twelve. Let it be
recollected likewise that they had limited the time of labour to
eight hours for children between the ages of nine and thirteen,
to twelve hours for young persons from thirteen to eighteen
years. The Government were not satisfied with the
extent of this limitation.—( Hear, hear.) They pro-
posed a still further restriction, limiting the time of
labour to six and a half hours, for children from nine to thir-
teen years of age, and limiting, by a very important change in
the law, the hours of labour for adult females. Now he must
say that if a new principle was to be introduced, this was a very
doubtful one.—( Hear, hear.) They gave some sanction
to it, by their legislation with regard to mines two years
ago. It was no great encouragement to them to proceed
in that course, if what had been told was true, that
the Act was evaded in Scotland, and that women there
dressed themselves as men to evade the Act. At all
events it was a principle which it was very difficult to justify.
—( Hear, hear.) It was interfering with the natural guar-
dians of he children to prevent their being employed in a
manner destructive not only to health and life, but which pro-
duced contortions, deformity. decay, disease, and death at an
early period. The Legislature undertook the charge of chil-
dren and young persons, but with regard to females of 25
and 30 years of age, it seemed hard to justify a departure
from the principle, so far that these women were not
restricted as to the number of hours they worked. That was
not in the proposition of the Noble Lord—it was introduced
for the first time in factory legislation by the Government
themselves, and let it be observed, that the introduction of
women, who were above 18 years, formed one of the objec-
tions to the proposition of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear. )
The proposition of the Noble Lord was, that the hours of
labour should be reduced from twelve hours to ten, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman said that if they entertained such a
restriction they must introduce it for all who laboured in mills,
and not for those alone to whom the Bill applied.—( Hear,
hear.) Why ? Because the Bill applied generally to women.
It appeared from the Report of the Commissioners that though
the law as it stood at present confined the time of labour to
twelve hours for those between the ages of thirteen and eighteen,
it did not prevent the working of adults for fifteen and sixteen
hours. Mr. Horner referred to cases of this kind which
he said ought not to be permitted. There was one point
which appeared to him to be the main point in which he
thought the arguments of the two Right Hon. Gentlemen
were unsatisfactory. If they limited the right of adult males
to labour any number of hours they thought, proper, and
placed any undue restriction on adult labour, it would be quite
against all sound principles of legislation ; but it would be too
much to say that, to obtain that labour from adults, they
thereby injured the health of young persons. If they found
it necessary for their physical health and moral well-being, and
in order to make them good members of society, to place certain
restrictions upon them, he did not think it could be argued
as any decisive reason against those restrictions, that they
thereby restricted the labour of male adults, because their ar-
gument was one to which there was no sufficient answer ; and
they were not to sacrifiee young persons, in order that another
principle might have way. They found that an increase during
the last few years, according to the statement of the
Noble Lord, in the number of females employed, espe-
cially young females, had taken place, and they
had medical testimony that young girls of thirteen
and eighteen could not be employed for twelve hours together
without serious injury to their constitutions, and without the
loss of those feelings which in after life would be likely to
render them good wives and good mothers. If this way so, it
was a principle that should be predominant with them. Ile
could understand the principle that they ought not to in.
fere on the subject—( Hear, hear)—that if they in-
terfered in the subject at all it would lead to
an interference with all the employments into which this great
community wlis divided. That argument he could understand
if he had been opposed to any legislation with regard to facto-
ries ; but if they began to legislate on the subject—if they
had a Bill proceeding on the principle of interference—.
if they legislated in a course to :undertake the
guardianship of one hundred thousand persons undergoing severe
hardships, they ought to make that interference effectual.--
(Hear, hear.) It was difficult for him to speak of foreign
countries, but his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Taunton
quoted an example of an American factory in which they
were allowed to work more than twelve hours in the course of
the day, but in a subsequent part of the evidence it
seemed that the children and the young persons employed
went away for three or four months in the year to attend a
school. That was a totally different state of things. It very
much weighed with him that a great number of the manufac-
turers themselves were in favour of the amendment, and he
was very much struck with the statement of the Hon. Member
for Leeds, that out of seventy owners of mills forty were ready
to agree to a Ten Hours' Bill—at least they petitioned for it.
They were told that at a moment when trade was reviving
there would be a great objection to legislating upon this sub-
ject, on account of the tendency of this Bill. But they found
such laws produced good as well as bad effects, and this Bill
might have the good effect of more equalising the quan-
tity of employment, seeing the prodigious power of
machinery in this country, and the immense quantity
of goods that could be turned out in a few weeks.
More continuous employment at ten hours per day throughout
the year might be secured to the operative by it than occa-
sional employment at twelve, fourteen, or fifteen hours per day
at one time, and only six or eight at another, according to the
present system. There was another part of the subject, or ra-
ther it was the subject which was naturally allied to the present
one, which had been touched upon by Members on that (the
Opposition) side of the House. Those said, that if the
Government wished to benefit the working classes,
they ought rather to take off the restrictions upon food. He
(Lord J. Russell) was one of those who took it that the con-
sequence of the proposal of the Noble Lord (Lord Ashley), if
adopted, would be a diminution in the wages of the working
classes. That was not quite certain, but it had been as nearly
proved as anything could be, and he had had some doubts as to
whether he would give a vote for a measure under the sup•
position that the wages of the operative would
be reduced from their present rate by it.—( Hear,
hear.) But he thought that in taking a view of
this subject, the question of the corn-laws ought not
to be kept out of sight. It was one which they might well
consider in conjunction with this question, particularly if the
operative could obtain a greater supply of food when earning
12s. per week on those festrictions being removed, than he
could now when earning 16s. per week. For it was his belief
that in this country the people had too much toil and a defi-
ciency of food. Certainly it was difficult to try to interfere
with the subject by legislation; but he believed they were
under the necessity of so doing. But there was another ta.k
which they ought likewise to undertake—he meant the admit-
ting a greater supply of food into the country, so that they
might look fora ard to the people having less toil and a greater
abundance of food. He should give his vote in favour of the
Noble Lord's amendment.

Mr. HINDLEY, amidst cries of " Divide, divide," moved
that the Chairman report progress.
Lord ASHLEY requested that the Hon. Member would
withdraw his motion, and proceed to address the Committee.
Mr. HINDLEY said he would yield to the request of the
Noble Lord and withdraw his proposition, but in following the
Prime Minister and the Noble Lord the late Secretary for the
Colonies, he could scarcely hope to command the attention of the
House. Never did he feel more anxiety in addressing the House
than at the present moment—not that he was in any doubt, like
the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland (Lord Howiek ),
as to the vote he ought to give, but it was a question in his
mind of vital importance to the interests of the country. The
interests of humanity ought to be attended to before those of
commerce.—( Hear, hear.) Practical men were in favour
of the proposition of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear.)
As to the evils resulting from the system of lung hours, no
difference of opinion prevailed. His Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Durham admitted that there were great evils; but he
said the Noble Lord took a telescope and looked the right way
when he examined the evils arising from the factory system,
whereas he reversed the evils resulting from agricultural labour.
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) had informed
the House that a deputation had waited upon him to state their
opinions on this subject, and that one of them was a person
who had formerly been an operative, but who had now raised
himself above that condition.—(Sir James Graham—
"He has a share in a factory.") But was this
an argument in favour of the present system ?
As well might it be contended that there was no danger in a
rapid stream, because some strong and brawny individual had
been able to breast it. It had been his privilege to take part
with others in efforts for the improvement of the working
people of his own locality ; and he had always found that long
hours offered a great impediment to improvement. Though
the women as well as the men earned more money
by working so many hours, they were so ignorant
of the commonest domestic pursuits that a large portion of the
money, under their management, was completely thrown away.
—( Rear, hear.) A friend of his, a magistrate, had gone
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six o'clock on Friday morning, during the whole of Friday
night, and until six o'clock on Saturday evening.—(Hear,
hear.) This was neither consistent with Christianity, nor
with the real interests of the country. With regard to what
had been said of improvements having lately taken
place—he was prepared to admit that there had been im-
provements, but there was still room for a good deal, and
what had been effected should encourage the House in future
legislation.—(Cries of " Divide, divide," and " Oh, oh.") He
had himself been at the head of a concern, where children of
nine years of age were worked twelve hours of positive
work, which, with two hours' interval for food, made
fourteen hours; and then many of them were occupied three
hours in walking to and from the factory, making seventeen
hours,
sh w.
He did
ichleftonoloytallow that ay
seven hoursfsotremsleteop,be carriedrecreati on by
education
his own choice, or for the purpose of making money at the
expense of their suffering; hut he was compelled to carry on
his works upon the system that prevailed, and there was a