The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-22 00:00:00

restrictions on commerce to abate the motives for enter-
prise and encouragement to perseverance and industry.
—(Loud cheering.) These, Sir, are the opinions which
I adopted some years ago, and which, upon a deliberate
review of the condition of the country, have been con-
firmed by all subsequent experience. To these opinions
I adhere, and I hope I shall not live to see the day when
the House of Commons will retrace its steps.—(The
Right Hon. Baronet resumed his seat amid loud and
continued cheering.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, before the House came
to a division, it was his duty to state, why, as a Minister
of the Crown, he felt it incumbent on him to resist the
motion of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. The
Hon. Gentleman had proposed to go into a Committee
to-consider the poor-rates and other burdens affecting
the landed interest. The Hon. Gentleman had told
them, that if they so went into Committee, be should
propose three resolutions, the effect of which would be
to transfer to the Consolidated Fund the whole ex-
penses of the poor-law establishment charges, and some
half-million of other charges. The Hon. Gentleman had
said, that upwards of two millions would be so trans-
ferred; and then he went on to state that this was the first
of a series of measures which it was intended to propose,
with the view of lessening the burdens on land. He
objected to the propositions, in the first instance, because
he thought the allegations were founded on an injustice.
If it had been established that this sacrifice was just,
then why, he asked, should not the remaining ten
millions which the Hon. Gentleman contended were
unfairly placed on the agricultural interest also be
transferred to the Consolidated Fund? The claim of
justice—if claim existed—applied to the whole twelve
millions, as well as to the two millions which the Hon.
Gentleman proposed to transfer. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Ripon was fully justifies
when he said that the Hon. Member for Bucks contem-
plated that this was not the only charge unduly affect-
ing the landed interest, but that twelve or fourteen mil-
Hoes would follow the proposal that was made. In the
next place, he (Lord John Russell) did not believe there
was any justice in this claim. He did not think, if they
compared the whole burdens of this country laid on va-
rious classes, that there was that unfair pressure on; the
landed interest which the Hon. Gentleman asserted.
Let them consider how far the other classes, as com-
pared with the agricultural classes, were affected by
taxation. With regard to the legacy duty, it did not
affect landed property, while it applied to personal pro-
perty There were also the excise and customs duties.
Having shown that the claim was not founded in justice,
he asked, was it expedient to make the transfer pro-
posed. As a Minister of the Crown, he was not bound
to presume that there would be a surplus revenue of two
millions, ort hat the House would deal wish that sum as
available, and if there were not those two millions,
then the Honourable Gentleman would have to pro
pose new taxes, but further than that, he
must say, that having increased the debt of this
country within the last few years, it would be their duty
to see that any probable surplus over expenditure should
be applied to the diminution of the debt, as so increased.
In the next place, supposing that the House was to de-
cide that the whole surplus should go at once to the re-
vision of taxes, he did not see that they were called upon
to decidelat oncelthat the whole of the revision should be
on the taxes of real property, and thus preclude them-
selves giving any relief to those engaged in industry.—
(dear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman who made this pro-
position said he did not ask for relief for the great landed
proprietor:, but for the 240,000 small proprietors, the
yeomanry of the country, whom he professed to repre-
sent. Well, then, how would his proposal affect them as
compared with the removal of other taxes? In the evi-
dence given before the Lords' Commttee, he found
that the present taxes on stamps were in the following
ratio: —On 50/. there was a duty of 30 per cent.—upon
12,5001. 1 per cent.—upon 25,000/., 15s. per cent.—and
upon 100,000/. a duty of only 12s. on the 1001.—Bear,
hear.) It appeared, therefore, that the small landed
prop: ietor who wished to effect a mortgage for 501. would
have to pay in stamps and law charges a duty of 30 per
cent., while the rich and large proprietor who might effect
a mortgage of 100,0001. would onlypay 12s. percent. He
thought it was not consistent to ask the House to come
to any resolution which might have the effect of pre-
cluding the Government from proposing, or the House
from making, any revision of those taxes which would
lighten the unequal burdens which pressed upon the
smell yeomaery themselves. He did not mean to enter
upon topics which had been so ably treated by the
Right Bon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, or the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Turaworth. There
was only one thing in the speech of the Right Hon.
Member fir Ripon which he felt compelled to notice,
which might otherwise give rise to very serious appre-
hensions in one of our colonies. He meant the proposal
that a tax should be put upon colonial timber.—(Hear,
hear.) He would not then discuss the question whether
Parliament had done rightly in reducing the duty on
Canadian timber to one shilling per load. The act had
been done, and considering that in 1843 the Canadians
had been induced to expect that they would have a pre-
ference in the corn market of this country—an expecta-
tion which had been disappointed by subsequent legisla-
tion—he did think that it would now be a great injustice
to levy any further duty upon timber. But resetting
to the proposal of the Hon.:Member for Bucks, he
repeated that its adoption would preclude them
from taking any steps to diminish the debt which had
been contracted within the last few years, and would
also deprive them of any opportunity of reducing the
taxation, which now pressed either upon the industrious
or the propertied classes. It would, he thought be wiser
to wait until the financial statement for the year was
laid before the House, and they were in a condition to
judge of the whole case, before they came to any reso-
lution whatever. The Right Honourable Member for
the Oxford University had said that his Right Honour-
able Friend (Sir G. Grey) stated that the resolution
would not preclude them from considering the pro-
priety of transferring these charges to the Consolidated
Fund; but then his Right Honourable Friend stated,
that he merely meant certain small charges which could
be more effectually dealt with in that way, but which
would not be of any great advantage to the agricultural
classes specially. Nor, indeed, did he think° that real
property was a species of property that had any special
claim upon them for relief.—(Cheers,) Besides this it
was not certain that this remission would in the slight-
est degree benefit the tenant-farmers, for whom it was
ostensibly asked. But there was another circumstance
of great importance, which must not be overlooked
in considering this question, and that was the in-
creased expenditure which would be caused by the
transfer proposed. As long as that expenditure was
defrayed out of the local rates, there was a guarantee
for economy, and a strong disposition on the part of
guardians to use it, which it would be very difficult for
his Right Hon. Friend, the President of the Poor-luw
Board, to enforce if the whole was transferred to a ge-
neral fund. But besides the transfer of the establish-
ment charges, the Hon. Gentleman proposed to transfer
the casual poor.—(Hear, hear.) He had heard that
proposal with great surprise, because, if there was one
class of poor that was liable to increase more than an-
other, it was the casual poor. Upon a former occasion,
Mr. Ward had stated in that House that the rest for the
casual poor had increased in Sheffield, in the course of
a few years, from 131. 15s. to 500/.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
did not see how his Right Hon. Friend could control or
check expenditure in that class. It could only be
done by vigilant local control. Ile came to the
conclusion, then, that it eas not desirable to make
the proposed transfer, either on account of the
charges themselves so proposed to be transferred,
or on account of the increased expenditure it would
occaelon. But there was another part of the state-
ment which the Honourable Gentleman had made, and
which had also been made by others holding the same
views, which deserved serious consideration. The Hon.
Gentleman said that this must not be considered as a
payment of the whole debt due to the landed interest,
but merely as an instalment, and had intimated that he
was prepared with a series af measures to follow this as
fm tiler instalments of the assume f debt. Well, were
they prepared to adopt Vie:e measures.—(hear, hear.)
The Right Honourable Member for the University of
Oxford, said he aas not, and that agreeing to one did
not imply support of the others. But that it was part
of one consecutive policy was skown by the speech of
the Hon. Member for Bucks, and by the views of those
by whom he was supported. The political presented by
lion. Member from his own constituents prayed fur
duties on all articles of foleigril import, cf course in-
cludieg corn. The measure, therefore, was intended, in
the first place, to lead to the placing the poor-law esta-
blishment charges on the Consolidated Fund, and in the
next plies to leas to the restoration of protectiva duties.
He must confess he was considerably surpra•ed at the
manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone) had argued this question. lie said
give the Protectionists the first of these series
of measures in order to weaken their chance c f its
re,toratior. The Right Honourabla Gentleman was
celebrated for his logic at the University, he now
represent; d, but he must certainly say that such logic as
that was widely differ eat to anything ho had ever heard
bit
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the Protectionists would immediately intro-
sisted in abolishing. If they the Gentleman an dutieshad as-
stated such a paltry relief,
as it would be considered by
refused the restoration of protections, ZuoewlarleoltYri and
weaken or allay agitation in the country. Ile believed
on the contrary, that this agitation would he ten times
greater than now. Though he confessed he under-
stocd the object c f the Honourable lelember for Buck-
inghamshire, he could not understand those who, being
asminst the end, yet voted for the means.--
(Ht ar, hear.) The agriculturists might thick the Go.
vernrnent was insensible to their distress, and

rEfused thew relief. lie eineenly liymputhise ci with

- _
that distress, but he believed that the} wjuld not only
seriously disappoint them, but seriously injure themit
such a resolution as that was passed. As to the burdens
on the 18.0, he would state, that while 2s. :3d. of the di-
rect taxation fe!l upon real property in 1815, has than
14,11 upon it in 1849, and as the la-id had also

ris•en in value, he did not see any just ground in the pro-
posal now made. The tine interest of the landed pro-
prietors of this country was to encourage manufactures
and commerce, to promote the general
.prosperity of the
country, because nobody would more largely participate
in it than they would. It they did this, it they bent
their energies to the improvement of the cultivation of
the land, instead of truploying their time and money in
au a:jtation which a Noble Duke hal avowed was in-
tended to turn a Government out of office and restore
protection,
they would most effectually promote their
o•vu prosperity.—(Hear, hear.) The continuance
of this agitabion could only tend to prolong
014 distress that existed, and to unsettle men's
minds. If it was terminated, he had no doubt that
tho agricultural classes would act as Mr. Lind-

say bad done in the case of the navigation-laws.
He fought stoutly for them last year, but as soon as
they were repealed he said—" I feel it to be my duty
now to make the best of my ships, to introduce a supe-
rior class of officers and men, and to take every D3C4surp
that might enable me to compete with the world." If
the shipowner could do this, who had to send his vessels
abroad, why could not the firmer and landlord do so,
who had their own market at their own doors?—(Hear,
hear.) Another great error was committed when it was
stated that the land in other countries was less heavily
laden than in this country. In France the proportion
was 80 per cent., in Prussia 20 per cent.; of the whole
revenue. If this was the case, let the landed interest of
England look to their own means, their own intelligence,
for success in the great and useful pursuit in which they
were engaged.—(Cheers.) For his own part, he be-
lieved with the Right lion. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel)
that they would preserve the influence they had hitherto
exercisd. In the course of his speech that Right Hon.
Gentleman had alluded to some matters personal to
himself. He must express his regret that the Right
Hon. Baronet should have been induced by any attack
upon his motives to notice such attacks.—(Hear,
hear.) Whatever might be the motives by which
the Right Honourable Baronet was actuated in the
course he adopted in 1846—a course in which he con-
curred—his belief was that full justice would be done in
this time and in all future times to the purity and disin-
terestedness of those motives by which he was actuated.
—(Loud cheers.) The Right Honourable Baronet at
that time commanded a great majority in the House of
Commons. It was in his power, if he thought fit, to
maintain the corn -Jaws he had himself brought forward,
and he (Lord J. Russell) fully believed that nothing but
a sense of duty to his Sovereign—(Cheers)—to his
country—(Cheers)—to those with whom he acted—
(Loud cries of " Oh, oh," from the Protectionists,
answered by cheers)—a sense of duty alone had induced
the Right Honourable Baronet to take the course he then
did.—(Renewed and louder cheers.) He did not mean to
express any opinion whether the course adopted was at
the time the best calculated to produce all the benefits
which undoubtedly he intended, but this he did say, that
it would be to reduce the noble science of social and
economical legislation to mere party :squabble, and to
degrade the statesmen who led that House, if such sordid
and selfish motives were attributed to them when they
acted in accordance with their deep conviction of duty.
—(Renewed cheers.) He trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet would in future think it unnecessary to defend
himself from such attacks, but whenever ho did he would
be certain of a generous response.—(Greet cheering.)
Lord H. BENTINCK rose, amidst considerab'e ex-
citement. He said, that at that late hour of the night it
was from no feeling of vanity that be ventured to claim
the attention of the House for a few minutes. If the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had con-
fined himself to what he really did say, and had adminis-
tered a rebuke upon that, the sharper his criticism the
better. But he had nut confined himself to the expres-
sions of which he complained, but had given way to a
weakness which sometimes induced him to fasten upon
men inferior to himself in standing and ability, and had
expressed opinions which he thought had been rather
hastily endorsed by the Noble Lord.—(Protectionist
cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet had accused him of
falsehood and treachery.
Sir R. PEEL—I said falsehood, not treachery.
Lord H. BENTINCK continued—Well, treachery
and falsehood amounted to the same thing. He pre-
sumed that what the Right Hon. Baronet alluded to
was what had taken place at the meeting at which he
(Lord H. Bentinck) had been present, and had stated
that he believed that the Right Honourable Baronet
was better enabled to deal liberally with his tenants
than many landlords who had no funded property,
and that be believed that only one quarter of the
fortune of the Right Honourable Baronet was ir..-
vested in land, and three-quarters in the funds. If the
Right Hon. Baronet would now get up and state that the
contrary was the case, he would retract that statement.—
(Oh, oh.) He had also stated that the measure proposed
by the Right Hon. Baronet had had the effect of im-
proving his own fortune at the expense of the country,
and in support of that statement ho would merely quote
the statement of the late Sir Robert Peel, that the Cur-
rency Bill of 1819 would ruin the country, but it would
raise the fortune of his family.—(Loud cries of " Oh,
oh," and Protectionist cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—I am really quite ashamed to trouble
the House again on this subject.—(Cheers.) The Noble
Lord was reported to have said at a public meeting that
I was directly and personally interested in proposing the
repeal of the corn-laws, because he had good reason to
believe that, with respect to my property, it consisted
three-fourths of money in the funds, and one-fourth in
landed estates.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord now
asks me whether I have not something on mortgages?
—(Much laughter.) Now, I hope it will be satisfactory
to the NotOe Lord, .if I tell him that I have not one
single shilling upon mortgages.—(Laughter.) What
I said was, that if he would just reverse his proportion,
and say that my property consisted three-fourths in
land, and one-fourth in the funds, he would be nearer
the truth.—(Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI said that when ha looked to the
meaning of the motion he was bound, as he believed
every other unbiased Member was, to aver that every
Hon. Member who opposed it had altogether avoided dis-
cussing the question at issue. For he would ask the
House, was the support of the poor looked to in any
other light than that of throwing the onus of their sup-
port principally upon the landed interest? He did not
mean at present to allude to the law of settlement, as to
the support of the poor, nor should he make the slightest
allusion to it, but that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
George Grey) had laid such stress and emphasis on it in
his very elaborate speech. For his own part he would avoid
alluding to it any further, particularly as he intended to
make it a distinct question at another time. When the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) said that he (Mr. Dis-
raeli) confounded agricultural property with real pro-
perty, as to the assessment of the poor-rate, he felt bound
to state that the Right Hon. Gentleman was mistaken.
He saw nothing more important than that the landed
interest should be as it ought to be, and that public
opinion should be as much as possible advanced in
the cause of truth, humanity, and justice.—
(Hear, hear.) In a word, he believed the returns
brought forward by the Right Honourable Gentleman to
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ferred him (Mr. Disraeli) to the railways; but to him he
would reply, that his motion tended to serve net only the
landed interest, but the railway interest, and every other
interest in the community; and when that lion. Baronet
had pronounced his measure as enormous, he would not
make any reply to that assertion, as so many Honourable
Gentlemen had clearly and intelligibly controverted
his arguments.—(The Honourable Gentleman here
road a part of the speech of the Right Honourable
Baronet (Sir J. Graham) delivered on March 17, 1845,
in which he adverted to the landed interest as being un-
duly burdened). Again, the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tama orth (Sir Robert Peel) said that he
wished that an opportunity would be afforded him for
discussing the merits and demerits of protection; but to
that he should say that he had frequently that opportu-
nity, andevhenever it was alluded to by that Right Hon.
Baronet, it was always :Vended with the gravity and
importance of Parliamentary mystery.—(Laughter.)
t be should say that tho Right Hon. Baronet hail ad-
mitted, when in Committee with him, that the landed
interest was unduly oppressed. He also recollected that
the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) answered to a ques-
tion as to his opinion on this point, that he was of the
same opinion as the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel);
but what the benefit of this similarity cf opinion was no
one ever knew since. The only thing he could infer
from it was, that one of the Right lion. Baronets was
for the reduction of the duty on bricks, while the Noble
Lord was for the reduction of stamp duties.—(Laugh-
ter.) Now, it is necessary to look to the interest that
both those parties took in the case of landlord and tenant.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), Rho was a
great landed proprietor, said he had made a great sacri-
fice for the interest of the community at large.—(lleer,
hear.) The Honourable Member for Wolverhampton
made a magnificent array of the intention of the
Government, for the purpose of reducing taxation as
much as possible. He would refer to the speeches
of those Honourable Gentlemen, and find a con-
siderable contrariety, if not a :contradiction, existing
among them. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham)
pointedly alluded to the speech of a Noble Duke, and
seemed to infer that thero were apprehensions that it
was the intention of their party to subvert the Govern-
ment, and to dissolve Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) In his
(Mr. Disraeli's) opinion there teemed to be no appre-
hension that there were " two Richmonds in the field."
He would next refer to what the Right Hon. Barom t
had said respecting the decision of the House, yet he
should say, though he did not wish to oppose the opinion
of the House, that the Right Hon. Baronet had exag-
gerated his views of Parliamentary authority. He (Mr.
Disraeli) denied that a question of such importance could
be settled by the House of Commons. He considered
net hie motion affected no less the interests of England
than it did that of Ireland, and he hoped that the Irish.
Members would look to their own and their
country's interest. (Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman's speech that night was one in vin-
dication of character, and he had been making such.
speeches for the last four years. Eminent as the Right
Hon. Gentleman was, he was not too great, aed he
would recommend him to say, as did Cosmo de Medi-
cis, that for the future he would appeal to posterity.
(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") He (Mr. Disraeli) de-
nied that his motion was a reversal of the measure of
free trade. He denied above all that it was a measure
to assist landlords, and for the benefit of the aris-
tocracy. It was a measure for the benefit of 250,000
lauded proprietors and 700,000 farmers. It would be
the commencement of a new era, which would increase
the resources of the country, and would be tho fore-
runner of measures which would elevate the character of
the peasantry of England.—(The Hon. Gentleman them
resumed his seat amid loud Protectionist cheers.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Disraeli's motion 252
Against it
273
Majority against the motion --21
The announcement of the numbers was received with
cheers by the Protectionists.
The House immediately afterwards adjourned, at Half-
past One o'clock.

NORTHERN AND EASTERN RAILWAY COMPANY,—.
The half-ye-arly gancral meeting of this company was
held yesterday at the company's offices at the Bishops-
gate Station; Richard Paterson, Esq., in the chair. The
attendance of shareholders was but scanty, and the whole
of the business consikted in reading the report and de•
Glaring a dividend, after which the meeting separated.
Dispatches were received yesterday at the Colonial-
office from the Governor of Van Dietnen's Land.