The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-06 00:00:00

SCOTCH FARM PRODUCE BILL.

Lord BROUGHAM. movcd the second reading of this
Bill.

The Earl of ABERDEEN hoped that the Committee
would be fixed for some day next week.
The Bill was then re .d a second time.
PETITIONS.

The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition against
a Post-office delivery on a Sunday.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented a petition from
Liverpool f a repeal of the window-tax; also a petition
against a Sunday deli ery cf letters; and a petition for
increa3ing the number of bishops.
Lord IIONTEAGLE moved for certain returns rela-
ting to the Irish Poor-law Unions.—Ordered.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 5.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
NEW MEMBER.

Colonel ROMILLY, the new Member for Canterbury,
took the oaths and his seat. The Hon. and Gallant
Member was introduced by his Learned Brother Sir
John Romilly, the Solicitor• General, and Mr. Ord.
SECOND READING.

The Railway Assurance Company Bill was read a ee.
elnd time and ordered to be committed.

PETITIONS.

A great number of petitions were presented against
Sunday labour in the Post-office.
Colonel FREESTUN presented a paition from the
inhabitants of the town and borough of Weymouth and
Melcombe Regis against Sunday labour in the post-
offi es throughout the United Kingdom.
Mr. HENRY presented a petition from a place in Lan-
cashire, signed by 4,737, in favour of a redaction of the
duty on tea.
Mr. TRELAWNY presented a petition against the
church-rates.

Mr. W. J. FOX presented several petitions in favour
of the Marriage Bill; also several petitions praying for
a reduction of the duty on tea; and several petitions in
favour of a system of secular education.
Lord HOTHAL presented a petition from the West
Riding of Yorkshire praying for agricultural protection.
Mr. A. HASTIE presented a petition from Glasgow
praying for a reduction of the duty on paper, and for
the abolition of the stamp duty on newspapers.
Sir R. INGLIS pr3seet2d several petitions against
the Marriage Bi:1; also a petition praying for agricul-
tural protection; and a petition in favour of the Ten
Hours' Bill.
Mr. LEGE' presented a pet.tion from Chester in
favour of agricultural protection.
Mr. WILSON presented a petition against the paper
duty and the penny stamp on newspapers.
Sir F. TIIESIGER p; esented a petition from Don-
caster against the Marriage Bill.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Norfolk, in fa-
vour of county financial boards ; also a petition from
Stafford praying for a rept' of the taxes on knowledge.
Mr. OSBORNE presented a petition from Middlesex,
praying for a reduction of the duty on paper, also for
the abolition of the penny stamp on newspapers.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition in favour of the
establishment of county financial hoards.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from the royal burgh
of Cupar, in Fife, complaining of the present system of
Post-office communication with that place.
MONEY ORDERS IN THE POST-OFFICE.
In reply to Mr. WILLIAMS as to why the recom-
mendations of a Mr. Sanders as to an improved mode of
conducting the business cf the money order department
of the Post-office had been carried out in preference to
those:of Mr. Smee, the chief accountant of the Bank of
England,
Mr. HAYTER said he had to give a very simple
answer to the question of the Honourable Gentleman.
He begged to refer the Hon. Member to a letter writtea
by the Postmaster-General in the month of August last,
and which letter stated that the Postmaster-General,
after a careful examination of the plans, had decided
that Mr. Smee's was inferior to the one then in opera-
tion, inasmuch as it had nothing to recommend it but a
diminution of security, and an increase of expense in
the working.

NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. MUTT gave notice that he should bring the sub-
ject of the slay.* trade before the House.
Mr. EWART postponed his motion for the repeal of
the advertisement duty till this day fortnight.
Mr. HUME hoped to be able to bring on his motion
on the subject of the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland this
day fortnight.
Mr. SHAFT() ADAIR gave notice of his intention to
move, on Thursday, for leave to bring in a Bill to pro-
vide In the more equitable distribution of the charge for
the re ief f the poor in certain cities and towns.
On the motio❑ of Mr. FRENCH leave of absence was
given to Mr. Keogh fur a futtnight on urgent private
business.

On the motion of Sir JOSHUA WALMSLEY leave
of absence wai given to Mr. Charles Pearson on account
of ill-health.

FRENCH POSTAGE.
Mr. CARDWELL presented a petition from Liver-
pool praying that letters passini, between England and
France might r ass by way of Folkestone.
WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
Sir W. moLEswouni wished to repeat the ques-
tion he had asked the Attorney-General on Thursday
last, v!z., NO- e•her the persons appointed by her Me-
jesty to make laws L,r the colony of Western Australia
can at present legally levy taxes on the inhabitants or
property of that colony.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was of opinion that
the persons appoin e l by her Majesty's Government to
make laws for the colony could at present levy taxes en
the property of the colonists.
Sir W. DIQLESWQIO.II Raked if the Attorney-

General was of opini.n that under the Act which had
expired Parliament lied r: iced in a.° colony the perma-
nent power of legislating and of levying taxes in Wes-
tern Australia

The ATTORNEY GENERAL sail the que3Von
hould have been put in wring b fore he answered it,
ia it was extrem.dy inconvenient to al sties' questims
hrown out in that way.
ROYAL IRISH DRAGOON GUARDS.

Colonel CHATTERTON asked the Right Honour-
able the Secretary at War, if a fund, called the bt.
Patrick'. Fund in the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards,
has b. en arranged; and if so, if he has any objection to
lay on the table the particulars cf that arrangement,
and how the sum of 3,0001. and upwards, belonging to
that fund, has been divided and disposed of.
Mr. FOX MAULE said the Commission which
bad been lately appointe I had revised various
funds, and among the rest the fund belonging
t her Majesty's Royal Irish Drsgooon *Guards. As
soon a 3 their report shall have been digested and put
irto term, there would he no objection whatever to lay
it upon the table, by which the public would see that
all bad been dune which could he possibly desired.
This much, however, he might say, that the system of
benefit societies would not henceforth be allow ed in any
regiment
CONDITION OF THE WORKING CLASSES.
Mr. SLANEY then rose to move for a Sanding
Committee or unpaid Commission, to consider
and report on practical plans (not connected with
political changes) for the social improve ment cf
the working and poorer classes. In doing this,
the Honourable Gentleman said that ho was aware
how iniffieie t he was to support the position which
he had undertaken, and how much better it would
have been if some Member of more weight had under-
taken the motion which he was about to make.—(Hear.)
One thing, however, there was in his favour, for he
was in possession of much information in consequence of
having been Chairman of the Committee upon this sub-
ject some y ears since. From that infirmation he had
found that while the higher and middle classes had been
daily advancing in wealth and the acquisition of com-
fort, the working classes had been daily retrograding.
In fifty years, that is during this century, the increase
f the labouring classes in the towns had been double of
that in tee rural districts. And lamentable was the•
condition of those in these districts. There were many
reports presented to that House to which Honour-
able Gentlemen could refer, but with which he
(Mr. Slaney) would not trouble tt e House.
The Commission which was appointed in 1843 stated in
their report that in almost all the populous towns in the
country the regulations for the health, comfort, and
moral training of the poorer classes were very de-
fective; and the Childrens' Employment Commission,
whore operations extended from 1831 to 1842,
reported that in the great majority of towns
the drainage and ventilation of the dwellings of the
labouring classes were entirely neglected, and that no
opportunities were afforded them for innocent amuse-
ment and healthful recreation. The consequence was
that their offspring were stunted in growth, delicate,
pale, and sickly. That Commission stated that there
were no adequate means in existence to effect any
material or general improvement in the physical
or moral condition of children, and young per-
sons employed in labour. There was also another
class of labourers comprising a population of
600,000 persons—he meant the handloom weavers.
The report established beyond all deutt that this state
if things was productive of much distress and dissipa-
tion among,t no less than 600,000. The next class to
which the report referred was railway labourers, who
appeared to be equally as bad off, and yet with
respect to tl.em nothing had been done to alleviate their
condition, and he would, with the permission of the
House, venture to state what had been the effect of all
this neglect. The effect of it had been to increase the
crime, to increase the pauperism, to increase the
discontent prevailing throughout the country ' • and to
prove that he did not exinzgerate, he would only point
to the wide-spread discontent that always manifests itself
amongst the working classes on the subject of their
political and social condition. The Registrar Generel's
returns also proved the extent of the miseries which the
humbler classes of society suffered and endured, showing
beyond all question that they endured double the illness
and double the loss of life than almost any other class
of the community. Surely, then, there was urgent
necessity for some change in the system.
The criminals committed in England and \Vales in the
ear 1805, were 4,600 ; in 1815, they were 7.800 ; in
1831, they were 19,000; in 1841, they were 27,000; in
1847, they were 28,800; and in 1848, they were 30,300.
Was it not a serious statement to make, and one which
could not be contradicted, that the commit'nent for crime
had increased six times as fast as the population of this
country, in spite of all the improvements, the weeltb,
and in spite of all the greatness which we saw around
us ? lie wanted to suggest some deliberative
Committee which would consider what were the
causes which are preventing the humbler classes
reaping a fair share in the advantages of
which every other class partook.—(Hear, hear.)
He found that the increase of crime had been three-
fold. He wished that he could fully look into the cases,
for he felt that the doing so would tend largely to the
improvement of the working classes.—(Hear.) It they
would only look to the condition of neighbouring coun-
tries, and he would take the most prominent, that of
France, they would find that this increase of crime was not
owing to the criminality observable in towns so much as it
was to that depreciation of morality which was strikingly
observable in the rural districts. In France, in 1845,
the number of criminals of the kind to which he al-
luded, was 7,000, in 1835 it was 6,500, and in 1845 it
was smaller, while in this country since that time the
proportion had increased to fourfold. Between 1806 and
1841 the population of this country had increased by 55
per cent., whereas the increase of crime had been 92 per
cent. There was one thing to which he would desire
to call the attention r f the House, and that was a fact
derivable from the invaluable work of Mr. Porter—that
fact was the vast incresee in the assessments for the poor.
The Hon. Member congratulated the House that there
had been a diminution, but he thought there had been
little diminution since the year 1834, when the new
law had been passed, and at the present time
was increasing at a great ratio. lie ( Mr.
Slaney) had calculated the sum which could be
saved to the country by some measure of this sort
at 27,000,000/. per annum for England and Wales,
and if they took in Ireland and Scotland, 40,000,0001.
would be the sum which could be saved in such items
as hospitals, police, transportation, asylums, and gaols.
But he was asked what was the remedy for this, and
here he begged the attention of the House. If
ho had brought forward this motion with some
political motive, or entertained some political
opinions with it, ho would have had no difficulty
in obtaining an audience. But when independent
Members, who were the only Members, he would
remind the House, who ever brought forward their
motions for the benefit of the people—whoa they
brought forward their motions they had great diffi-
culty in gaining the attention of the House.
There were three things which he thought it w as their
bounden duty to do— to afford instruction for their chil-
dren—to render some protection to their health—and to
give due encouragement to their indite t; y. He asked
no more than this, and less he thought would nut be
justice. Ile Loped, therefore, that the House would
epee to the appointment of a Committee composed
of gen'lemen on either side of the House with good
heads and warm hearts, with the view of inquiring
what political measures could be brought forward from
time to time for improving the condition of the working
classes. This course might bo objected to on
the ground that it would encourage false
hopes, but he thought any objection of such a nature
might be obviated by stating specifically and clearly the
intention which gave rise to the inquiry, v:z., to give
fair play to the working classes, to protect them from
fabd, and to give them those advantages which
other classes of the community possessed.—(Hear.)
In 1830 a Committee on manufactures sat, and he
would mention the facts that came out before the
Committee, with regard to the three great trades
of England cotton, wool'en, and hardware.
There were three classes of workmen employed
in the manufactures. In all these classes they
were amply sufficient to provide the workmen
with comfort and support, but they wanted some
means of spreading them over a given period,
so as to guard against the fluctuations of
good wages and no wages at all. Now could not
some measure of that sort be devised without having re-
course to anything in the shape of a Government
to protect the workpeople of this country from those
calamities which were constantly coming upon them?
True a Bill ea, brought in and pasred that House for
establishing benefit societies, but there was some
technical difficulty in the way of carrying that
measure into operation on the association prin..
ciple, and it was ultimately abandoned. With
regard to the subject of illness, the House was
probably aware that benefit societies ware confined to
relieving the illness of the man himself, and they were,
therefore net calculated for providing against the illness
of the man's family; but the matter would be a very pro-
per one for the consideration of the Commissioners
which he was now recommending. He would now ven-
ture to call the attention of the House to another im-
portant subject. They had lately had their attention
directed to the miserable situation of a number of
poor women who could find no employment in this
great metropolis.—(Hear' hear.) The interposition of
the Right Hon. Member for Wiltshire to direct public
sympathy to this class was worthy of the highest
praise, and he had aided it with his own humble mite.
He, however, begged the House to remember that that
state of things was a symptom and not a cause.
He asked what was the cause of the depressed condition
of the poor? That cause was the excess of numbers to
the demand for their labour in particular localities. To
take a few people out of one country and remove them
to another was but to take a drop out of the ocean. Now,
was it not their duty to turn their minds and see what
was the cause of that excess ? He had no hesitation in
saying it was. the want of forethought. Now, in-
stead of the ruling powers—instead of the edu-
cated classes having stepp el in for the pur-
pose of assisting forotheughe, they had acted in some
reap -cts on the other side. The ssrne thing hod been
douc throughout ill the manufectaring towns, by
the neglect of all the se provisions for the decency, for
the comfort, and for the s elf-. aspect of those
parties in their several localities. lle asked them
whether it would not be perfectly futile to expect any
amendment in the persons in such districts? For his
own part he thought that they should take to an en-
tire change of system, and instead of building pri-
sons and ensrmous workhouses f.sr the re fsrmation
of those who were dark and comparatively black with
crime, they should turn their attention to the instruction
of the d silo and the innocent, and endeavour for
the future rather to avert than to emcee' the
fault which yr as now of such serious detriment
to the country.—(Hear, hear.) They had found that
the working closes biul ever been true to thexu,:eheo,

When the principle of savings' banks was first
a working
promulgate], it originated withth
man who, while all his fellows were resPff
'
a great reward from his conception lad Ilifsse
remained in obscurity.—(hear, hear.) The poor
butmarl
looked forward to a retirement on his own property,t
erfee
hew could such an idea be realised ? It was a c
fallaey, a mere farce, for how could a poor lean witche
expert. es of a conveyance be fore his eyes expect sa
re: u't ?
If the House would give some induceci
meat to these classes for saving, they would respond
to the kindness. Their industry, their diligence:
no man could deny who had seen the vas'
works which hal been consummated during this cell-
Besisl.es
tury. Railways and canals alike attested this.
this they had other qualities, the feelings of chant!:
and forbearance one towards another. It was ura
these grounds that he had ventured to bring forwar
tt e present motion.
Mr. TRELAWNY opposed the motion. Ile bad
as high a respect for the working classes as any °IC
in the House, but he could not agree to a motion 11
the present, which was calculated to mislead thehis
ta'
He thought the Honourable Geotleman, by
own showing, had proved that it would be
hopeless and delusive to attempt to 1.004
the eels of which he complained h. any
legislative interference v
, and his re lest amounted
in '
to asking Parliament to give the working classes foricd-
thought.—(Hrar, hear ) Believing the motion wan d
not accomplish the obj• et which the lion. Gentleman ba
in view, he felt bound to give it his decide] oppositior.
Sir G. GREY c -rnplitneeted the Honourable en
tleman upon the sincerity and temper whieb
had shown in bringing forward the motion.
ou fed,earrYt
however, doubted whether it was practicable
out the plan which the lion. Gentleman prop No
It
No doubt
he did ne t know precisely what the plan was.
it was impoi tint thet the information should be cool;
lected, as the Honourable Member wished, though not
lected, as the Honourable Member wished, thombe r
exactly in the manner which the Honourable blew
or
prcposed. The appointment of a newlyCommissio
a Standing Committee of the House would
vast
lead to Parliament being overwhelmed with t.
number of reports relative to a distress, the most Irani,
tant causes of which were already well keown, but which
he did not think it was in the power of any tegialativo
enactment to remove. Many private mitigate
had
stress
t:el, by their exertions, to 1:0'w-ft
the distress, and so much was being done e.OO
of a practical nature to improve the coedit'
of the working classes, that there was
cessity now than there might have been lijlist
merly for the adoption of such a plan es the
His Hon. Fiiend had endeavoured to draw the line 7,-,;
tween improving the condition of the working ifis'at
apart from political changes. He (Sir to
Grey) did not know how it was possible -
A be
less
draw such a distinction. Under these circunistane,essnut
(Sir G. Grey) really hoped his Hon. Friend wouluo-aa•
press his motion on the House, otherwise he (Sir
Grey) should be reluctantly compelled to oppose it. believe
Mr. SOTHERON said he could not but h.,e11e,„,
that the proposition of the Honourable .11e•-o-s
bar (Mr. Slaney), however benevolent in its con.
caption, would end in general disappointtne
He hoped that tale lion. Member would not be de'
terred by the ill-success of his present motion, but sva"
persevere in his benevolent intent by
ions. the
Mr. HUME thought that the objects sought
Hon. Gentleman would be much better attained by Sr s
vate association than by a Committee of the liouse,,ould
Government officer. Upstairs, in the library, he /s,
by
find reports of the association, which was set on fens too
Sir Thomas Barnard, which would
of the best manner in which to proceed. arable
Mr. M. MILNES trusted that his Ilouo.o,
Friend who had brought forward the que,„stsiod
would not be deterred from bringing it forward aga;f9od-
again, and urging it upon the Government, nowt° aged
ing the reception it had met with that night. He trusted
give him informal,
the Government would take up the subject upon a- e
occasion.
Mr. H. HERBERT—As the subject lal been II;
tioned he trusted that the Government would ere loiley
something with respect to savings' bunk +, and that they
would awaken the public mind to the feet that ja
were not responsible for the defalcations
that
these establishments. He thought, howeert,esate
the Government ought to de something to rem ,rr the
the parties who had lost so much by them, unssueverris
impression that they had got the security of the u°'
went. int°
Mr. CAMPBELL said that if they were to aPP°OOO.
commission for the purposes contemplated by thu to be
Member for Shrewsbury, it ought, in his °p bad of
a paid one. The experience they had hitherto le to
unpaid commissions was not, he thought,
a belief in their efficacy. During the past an,ttito the
most magnificent inquiry had been instituted aadoetere
social condition of the working-classes by thee"; v WO-
of the Morning Chronicle, the result of that inqu'rts soot
ing been not only the collection of a vsst 1.104 of e
valuable information, but also the resuscitate°
tom
social movement. Now, he believed that no such; rd cow
could ever be obtained from the labours of ooP' of the
missioners, and he could not, therefore approve ides'
fevourano
motion which had been submitted for their con
Lion by the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury. ~eetiott
Mr. STANFORD said that he could see na °l4„siect
to the appointment of' unpaid commissioners tO ,
en ft'
information upon the subjects to which them otlriote
ferred. There could be no doubt but that if P awes'.
Member of the House were hereafter to introdnee tosios
sure for improving the condition of the working
cern tbt
fhe would derive very material support fr -on el
act, that his proposal had received the eanctlithout
such commissioners. Indeed, he believed that Ilia not
that support a measure t f that descriptions ea lc'
f ossibly succeed, from a want of a sufficiently estos.
tel est on the part of lion. Members in such (I°oo
He had observed wits regret the little attention woe
the House had that evening paid to the very valuable
bad
and able statement of the Hon. Gentlemen wonber
brought forward that motion. If the lin,n:segoldis
should think proper to press the motion to a u"",.
(Mr. Stanford) should certainly vote in its fav°°,,,••seterl.l,
Lord R. GROSVENOR said he felt bound mbar f'3l,`
his best thanks to his Hon. Friend the alerting to
Shrewsbury for having undertaken tke unarn-1-911,1!),
he had performed that evening. Ile did n°' "aeuks'e
charge the House or the Government with any
belie'
hard-heartedness, but ho should say that 10 hi:, were
the oftener the sufferings of the working claes
brought under their notice the better. ee circa/13h;
Mr. SLANEY said he felt that, under all tes,,e tot%
stances of the case, he should not be doing itts-snoti7
cause which he advocated if he were to press Iris he h'
to a division. But he hoped that the subject to their
brought forward under their notice would sinkulelitaw eousi:
minds, and that they would give to it their " nlaseei
deration. The present condition of the working epu
tof ribe
loudly called for some step for the attainment
WOOl. .
he had in view; and he trusted that such a steP tee 1)18
taken by her Majesty's Government. The'96lsier'Pet'
Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Utfinie anner
went and other Hon. Members, fir the kin" —that stV
which they had alluded to his exertions upon
jest, he begged leave to withdraw his motion•
The
motion was accord•ngly withdrawn. seeelSE.
THE PARLIAMENTARY FRANke's, it tearer-
Lord J. RUSCELL said he wished to ent,'lnstsnie,;
Hon. and Gallant Freud the Member for IT escifisabli
(Sir De Lacy Evans), whether it would not be..00,,,bie
that he should postpone for the pre eat the til.Loir the lir
stood r eat on the notice paper, in his name' nary, 11.11;
troduction of a Bill to extend the Parnell:lntos aesss.
chise in this ccuntry. A motion of a soniew r 001
character had been brought forward the oth e and has
by his Hon. Fiiend the Member for Montrose, for
Da v woo
then undergone considerable discussion; a Trawl to
the enlargement of the number of voters in `stances
1.0,
still before the House. Under these dreamt,' not
hoped that his lion. and Gallant Friend vlvg• ens
silt in bringing forward his motion that evens° soOta.a,
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that, as ,„t 00113°10
might be inopportune for the discussion of 0;40e. the
_he should act bring it forward upon that Irs cation'
it t° oes
her. wished to give notice that he would saufmtbe Par
uouse on an early day after the passing I).
mentary Voters (Ireland) Bill.
POSTAL COMMUNICATION 1... the
LONDON AND PARIS. . fora of
Mr. MACKINNON presented a P
merchants, traders, and other inhabitants 4 tsk Peen
London, praying that' an investigation Lair. e berlra,,
„icattoP „,
into the present mode of postal conaratle. incr.,- the
London and Paris; and a petition from Toter °flea'
traders, and other inhabitants of 31so similar roe
same effects He wished to observe that a 001. cow
tion bad already been presented from Livegelect
etitior
then itywo
Hon. Member then proceeded to move for %a cocas;
pensive mittee to ascertain the most exraiitiOtte too nor
pensive mode of postal communication het" and aci,edi
and Paris. The advantages of facilitatingerecogn tine
rating that communication were so universe 11i3 attent b°
that he need not dilate upon that point. FlOOO3OOO
had first been directed to the subject by
art f the° the
, ~rt 0 he
had seer, to the effect that in the early pais 'Joao'
of January last an express sent Wm ell 00
thro 0 a
Times newspaper, had reached Londe sese bed
loose, in about eight hours. That evening' ae,„loolt
Paris at half-past eight o'clock in the eight O" ‘llO
been printedand • TS see h
Jett( e hear the
on the following merning, while the
circulated in London at tbf
mail from Paris, through Calais, at the "„ciock Vont!
feu e,
not been circulated in London until
next afternoon; so that about eight hours ototiolitoii,
between the receipt of the private coinor she 'qOa
by pll
the Times and the receipt of the lets er% thStt riys
In former times it had teen customer/ of pbbite
information should take precederleCtste of 'ed j)
information ; but it appeared that I•;.ye begg,e So:
was at present completely altered. '7oittae Pottpo7
state that in moving for that Cc111„„it blalg.ttefe"
net the slightest intention of throwingr bet:
our Post-office authorities; on the contrafooald,,iot
that nothing could be more 2atisLictory;
jnent.
rani
ter managed, than our Post-office dePa greatsa be&
Colton hetue was sure that it would be a source of ittes ht. r lb°
cation to the country to find that ts :0, ve
appointed for the purpose cf ascertalU/ isetola of .00a Pto
1 l'onslni'e cove mite
present communication between the aI,P world
greatest and most r a „ free- otos ,0
aceelerated. It was ti tie that the roolreoraserlYsod bltt,
Calais was the mode of coinmunicati
between Paris and London. Teat,
vessels it trce,,,,' Jsoa'
owing to the fac', that with sailiug pat ";01 Ib°:s
easier to reach Calais than Bouleg9eihat had been not
had since come into operation; and the year poor to
result ? Why. he found that while fro t
.0
less than 38,000 pissengers had p,o,o0looitiovo.!,
Calais, and only 11,090 from Dover t_i!;ot., ha
ought
the
year 1847, as many as 78,000 PaS" Oro hi of
Boulogne, and only 16,000 to Caltl33' heen set
008 pro
the preference which hal in that waY,,mr,settY t of to
public ts the route by Boulogne ryes r„,leanensrsodou_s,
f its superiority. Since the cowls,' „on
..uvto se.rrtit
fecal loge 00
year 1848, the English snails were scl" "Cal al5 `tj 11131:
Dover, from Dover to an a, sroh .00
and Paris. By thee line the journeY ea di
less than 66 miles; and these 68 witeP

4

,__

11

Ile

tia,e .
40. t ~acnt is ti .e communication between the two
he
a;„irtS t'f not less than two hour.. Now, v. a; it not,
ala-r,ask, of vast importance that that cola muala rticiss
rj4l 3ccelai wet: ? Ha did not care he a's ould 00,
of whetter the wads were f tra•arded by Follee ;tents,
;'worl upon that point he had no prefsir,cnre,e,ut
''ict he hstl tie-y reaaan b,..lieve Ctat
It a.,sla")oa woald be found praftsraol:_•! that,_ ?tile,
oh.;:seted to the former route teat w
_e
to
roat,'veta a partiaular Tina ta• it woul-1 be impossible r harbour of oilogne, while we could tke
tik,areollr of Calais. But he found that during a spacend
11:e Years the between Folkestono
°lege° b 11,48 al [mired the latter hsrboar thirty-eightb‘t.aen
Dater that during. a similar period the mail n
dramas. . (4.4 Calais had missed Vie latter harbour tare
numbs
4flire The !lifference, therefore, between the numb,
Saito." In which either harbour had bees.. missed was
4it 7' 41 c add not be put in csinpe•vion with} the
neehalnng the wads dtlivered two:j;nairotobres
11,16). fiat there was anotlit r advantage a t n
ni,t
4;414'1 B adogne. When a seatts host %isieintet,
rie3ter\ atharbour in consequence of tha ;of
sett Y or sena' -westerly winds, the nails c led
,bc °alai', and would arrive there in the aa,
th t-
ezhuf atime which was at present required to carry
ttsa" the harbourerdir route; while, if a boat could not
f Calais, it should returu ts?
,Doeveter:
Rather/v(le, therefore, greater chances of missini,_ 1.
1,41 a I, the Passage to France by the ealai
tale! 1 the Boulogne line. The mail boats had
mgrs 4° reach Boulogne) six times only in the year
113 thler, the number of times they had fa ed
boilll4 Now, he only asked that they
l) 0101 hsavc a Committee which would silt those matt Is
itntt;itetattaan; and surely the investigations of such a
tlktich ee could do no harm, and might be productive
g°°4l. Let them look at the incanvenienefotmo
th
1144
uienr.great commercial towns were exposed from
of the present route. When a mail a.re-
sktii ere from Paris it as as too late to be sent by to
bltatallt NI; and the consequence was, that the mho-
-41,414 q Manchester, Liverpool, and our otherf
great
Inters at towns lost one day in the receipt
444 fr and orders from the East Indies, from eFratnce
Sin :In the whole of the south of Europe. But if the
gat; "re forwarded b • Boulogne, and were to leave_
1411 st
to sal'-past seven in the evening, they would reach
a sufficiently early hour on the following
,t4t rDinn° ? allow of their being sent off to the
."stsn-re'n.4's mail. That was an advantage whichif
hail,' Manifestly most desirable that they should
ellt,leaLseetire.—(llcaa, hear.) The Hon. Member con
Atant al°ving fn. the Committee. .
11.4..w"0,..TREE-I,TON seconded the motion.
.•/3WPEIi, said he had no objection to the
trati-"sent of the Committee for which the Honourable
httl, usd moved. But he certainly did not antics-
4Na, ereah!ts
inquiries any very important results,
ex-
ilet4lPeb."4l)s, that it would sift many of the statements
11. tbe Ron Gentleman. He believed that the
1.445 t Nieman
tlPre • attached* far too much importance
ntof.
N; S 8 winch he had stated was the foundation -
''tte a;4l. lie believed it would be shown to the Com
to°lllltee Ce....tanother express had been forwarded by the
by Calais—and had been
!kik Ye(l aver the deist e say,
sixteen minutes of the
;Ase:llben„Picti by theatnreaensmission of the one to whichttt
to Gentleman had referred. But the real
tikconsider in that matter was, not by which line
'at teetls could be conveyed with the greatest rapidity,
i44ltaZquestion was ma which line could the greatelst
e4l? *lallaPidity be ntained throughout the wfhtobee
I.4l,lseui, iv
it had been found from the peculiarity o
'bititytt'setf.Boulogne that there was the greatest uncer-
bjillat pr,2,the period at which the mails could be received
ets sasae, and 't s surely of greater value to those
jet,444i)fiexeattied letters that those letters should reach
~bou. periods, than that they should reach them
hodw's earlier or a few hours later. During the
tl/41 beep"a the mails were forwarded by Boulogne it
4t the found five hours and a half
4 necessary to allow
Journey • while by the Calais route four
the 4:11%7 were allow' ad for the sea voyage—that was to
IhZlveretirtnad a ha'f less. It appeared to him that if
ti o 81, have that Commitee it would be as well
spa Ivittiet,l4'd also direct its inquiries to the corn nica-
-0) because there were many reasons for
allitb4PB4'73),tv"arat_the mails could be carried to the north of
vat -France without. any additional expense, thus
h.utint tu" two lines into one, and insuring the same
a pid •
4 tlt t-r it)! as at present. He would therefore
ag his lion. Friend the propriety of adding the
0a,,; worth to his motion—" and to t le north of
iillealltidieuaLtEßß said that as the Hon. Gentleman
tea addressed the House hal said that he
It tat 1.`4 t° oppose the motion,. ho (Sir G. Clerk)
alai • intend to object to it ; but at the
litQe
lie
totlll4rikt!ere.,aatishfeaucgtohrilytsett.led by the Government
her%teti 4,4aa a. Committee cf that Howe. It
4tettl bun that it was a question which ought to
06111011. na_cd, upon the principles laid down by
tort t Member for Hertford, and that they
441111-°5.100k at the time sp Pt in conveying. a special
lairtl°o with all the preparations meaedmernbneefacree..-
144 all the time spent in conveying I
saa.4periods of the year, and in all states of veea-.
44011Iliaa,'' They ought to endeavour to have a postal
Ita 'lma conducted with the greatest regularity;
Itt4B cornParativ'ely unimpor: ant matter whether
tiro " received an hour earlier or an hour later..
rabiesantSt_all the interest of the merchant to have his
Isli'vtiliekuce arrive at a fixed period. But that was a
44t 4itie tight, he thought, to he arranged by the
4 rt
tt
t the Post-office and at the Admiralty, and
tj:'l4saer'errimittee of that House.admitted that
likilosa4/..,desirable that the merctilabnlietieour cammer-
ds in
to recsiae their
Ittikaaje:snculd, if possible, be en'
tront4lio ns from the Continent on the day of their
krt to b,encloo. But the attention of the Committee
tpit'll!aoulosPecially directed to this point, what accede-
tht "Jver;
obtained in the transit between London.
tt hosa.a This subject engrossed the attention of
sparSe.B.4. (f Trade when he had the honour
111tpa. l• there, and formed part of the able
th:11a1-.1ent'.d under the dire.:tion of Lord Dllhou*ie.
10414e,4 ebf Trade at that time pointed.. out thtewiemei;
§thcl4.44,l3.l3aving a direct communication be
:opt 14°4 lets, instead of continuing to follow. the present
Qtah•tasaind inconvenient route by Reigate, and the
tAtitita4ils 4.1:4 Company proposed a schme by which
tlor,k T 1111414 have been conveyed by that. more direct
114t0w,„,,t was five years ago, and nothing
44- P4rn."43 carrying it out. petition for a had
for
kttltitttlTse °f executing that scheme, he was happy to
1t,404 been
laid be fore Parliament this year, which. 1, ash, .4topao •
Sho its progress by a t?chnical objection.
444' fees ever, be remembered, that in a line af this
14401tt h Part of the journey was performed by land
h test
the ti,/ bra, you could not always take the.s or _
4:4Peeldi-ain. °Pt but must take into consideration also
mtlof harbours and the ports of arrival
lltilittti
saaa,4, and the most circuitous line by land
if." You to avail yourself of the shortesbtesenas
114' lta ft. la only wish was that the inquiry should
n_
14'4 that and as ample as possible, tascause he felt co
„la, at
beliaa;:usLever question might arise
u;tds the of Boulogne or Calais on the other.
11014 ~e°ald be no doubt whatever that the port of
PtitNs aelssess great advantages and facilities,
e", it at all times to be select, d as a ort owfde-
ti4 elt,„"Meaendently of that, Parliament determinedthere
44t.ttryt; ago to construct most imp vent k
~Ittliceekt expense, which were not yetw coormsepdleyteend:
"ttt°.lo,-auerl they were so, would
henao itself. It would then n
give
oD
~vnegrer
be a
accessible only at articularp hours, but
Drip 14
aWv"Y few h • be accessible at any time of
With reference tos Calais, independently of its
410 hea`ere4 from the westerly gales, works had re.:
4',114,41,t toft:iennstructed there which rendered it accessl
la .ales. It was considerations such as these
‘44Vt'tY -:ales'
aciPlniao justified the Admiralty in saying
It:„° gut not to' look so much to quickness of comd-
- as to that which would give security an
t54)41., 4101 I,the
acknowledged the importance in a cora-
of
eve of facilitating quick postal comrnul-1
5%441:1,
wgektle!sal, and suggested that it would be well
bother the benefit of. the penny postage
!4N....ltlo,,,,eXtended to the colonies.
to rejoiced that the Government had con-
-44a„ ,4'lati„eormait-ee, for he felt, that by eans of its
4`44.ata of the Hon. Member opposite wouldin dits-)
tat•
li"Y of the opinions which he ha I sta.ed_
6414e..said theppassa e would be shortened by
;41142"ra,
treat difference,g ho believed, was not
increase of the passengers
pht4a!le had been". The commented on, but that increase
11‘44t1114-111;111frnciiatelyriferth.e establishment of steam-
)4a %pie • ore the construction of railroads,. and for
P s-ireasco that people wished to avoid the three
;ht-nt or'in dTnces between Calais and 13,m-
Lhil",,ilialtol-,6,,,e4ae, ho I lg*;
was very different since the
tio„-"‘ of railroads South-westerly winds pre-
of ti,-‘,Wionths.• the *year and (luring the preys-
)o‘'ll,l-4-1• Pa winds the ap-pro;ch to Boulogne was very
114 qa Was a "1Y tiara when there was any sea at
;‘,"nring the prevalence cf a north-easterly
Nat) oar Mader h prevalence cf a north.eaaterly
such circumstances, you could not
Bouulco ne would be accessible. The
• ehe over hadg said that Boulogne mnst
11i tha/ hs4 communication for passengers, but
I,ltra: eaos followed as a matter of course.
Lit h'els fir;",tttne, for instance, it was dangerous to
': solcr,tlpgne, for the shore was steep and there
alalitaa 1,,-„",,Lngs. With reference to the direct linead
ntb"ltai ismon and Dover to which reference. h
174.13°414"1.e.ceU1d only say there never was a railway
toed, to Paean the district through which it was
.ine.
4,11 ,;;_. There was not a landowner, he b.
`1,116 Whole line who was not anxious for Its
'lt 4lot; a4-4e Was very sorry that it was put off till
ttS►r rod,utlt believed it would not be delayed beyond
ItsalA LA
lee iln 'eY EVANS only rose fur the purpose
oft na -isn't observation with reference to the direct
ti-lnion to Dover. This he conceived to
h.°L.tlll • I‘)'
and hopel the public sprit
‘44l'vrl44.h`uots, with the assistance of tlmlloo.no,u,eraßbilei
Nip "over, would secure the passing t Li
441, t'
ti '4l cyrrir
It 4,4 44 • IsliTON thought the chap IS t, cut ge would be of
ets y natt minutes were gained ; fer,
"t re-;'-'ll.lzt make very little tliffsre.ncein London,
44),4t;!i°t•t0.0.'4e the difference of a day in the northern
L44.earli;;saggested that the two hours might be saved
rr kkeeiltpr,ss from Dover.
(!)4•'111k the‘l,l"OaN proposed to amend his motion
i°44 Ife hthe northern parts of Ea-
-1114441Y .1,44 been informed that the South-Eastn
D,4,41,,,%ntraf°
.vvoilhng, if the Government chose, to
.enter
Its at sae, Or 't t carry the mails either from Dover to
Sraeo Folkestone to Boulogne, at a very
2t of expense to the countryalmo,st
,44404'."°‘v much, but he believed it to he 20,00‘
Ivolli; Year. He hoped the representatives for
cOI.
tteko'not be so alarmed about their harbour, for
each limil#9l4 advantages, they W 9414 49

-
doubt be et t alilithed be7eee the Committee, en 1 if, on
the other hand, it should he et t ddished tl a• Folkestone
could be made equally good, he trusted they would not
resist its being In ele so.
The motion was then agreed to, with the additien pro-
pesed.
FINES ON THE ADMISSION OF FREE \JEN.
Mr. Aldera-n, i SIDNEY mot e I for leave to bring in a
Bill t) abeiish the payment of tines tied stamp dut'es
on the admission of freemen into corporations of cities
and boroughs in England and Wales. His first in-
tention was to introduce a Bill applicahlo to the
city of London alone, but he was informed by the Right
Honourable Gentleman in the chair that such a mea-
sure would come under the din nninetion of a private
Bill, and he had now brought within its scope all the
municipal towns of England and Wales, and he rejoiced
that ho had token this course, f -cling assured that there
was much to be amended. The fees on enrolments
ranged from 6.. t.; 38e. 4d., which inflicted great injus-
tice on those who acre compelled to pay thew, many of
wheat were extremely pocr. The evil was more severely
fit in London, because there the system of imposing
fines on residence, abolished by the Municipal Act of
1833 in other corporate town, still p• °veiled, and im-
posed a greet hardship upon the small shopkeeper, while
the large merchant, the wholesale dealer, and pr..f ssional
man escaped. A few years ago the City Solicitor hal to
proceed against 3,000 persons for not taking up their
liberty, and there we-e now 2,000 persons who refused
to pi), the fine on resident'. Last election litany hun-
dreds of pounds were paid for fines on taking up the
freedom of electors. In London, with a Parliamentary
1 roll of 20,000, there were only 6,000 entitled to th-:
mnni-
cipsl franchise, and these were divided into 25 wards, five
of which consisted of between 70 and 100 individuals,
and many of which on an average ILA about from 100
to 120 electors. Was this the proper st rte for a corpc-
ration with funds to the amount of upwards of 200,000/.?
In Manchester the municipal would bs double the amount
of the Parliamentary roll, in L•_eda three or four times
as numerous, and Birmingham and Sheffield exhibited
about the same proportion. He had hoped that the Go-
vernment would not have opposed the introduction of the
Bill. The principal argument against it, he believed,
was that it would affect a revenue of from 6001. is 800/.
a year; but this, he submit; eI, ought not to form any ob-
jection, when it was considered that the tax was imposed
on a poor, hard-working class. He asked nothing but
justice; and with these observations he asked permission
to lay the Bill on the table. •
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was satisfied that the
House would be only wasting its time in allowing this
Bill te be introduce 1. He thought they had some rea-
son to complain of the course pursued by the Hon. Mem-
ber for he had admitted that his original intention was
to limit the operation of his Bill to London, and then,
finding that in such a shape it fell under the category of
private Bills, and therefore would require notice to be
given to the Corporation of Lendou, and the various
companies whose interests were to be affected, he got rid
of the difficulty by altering his Bill into a proposition
for confiscating property throughout England and Wales.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY—No, no.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Hon. Centle-
man admitted that be had applied to the Speaker.
Mr. Alderman IDNEY—Not as to confiscating pro-
perty.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—StiII the Honour-
able Member ascertained that, in its original shape, the
Bill would have required notice to be given to those with
whose vested rights it proposed to interfere. The Hon.
Member had instituted a comparison between the muni-
cipal roll in London and that of Liverpool, Manchester,
and other places, but the remedy fur that was very simple.
Let him bring in a Bill to make the London constitu-
ency like the Liverpool constituency, instead of pro-
prosing to increase the constituency by taking away
the property of. the Corporation. Let the Cor-
poration of London bring in a Bill to apply the Muni-
cipal Reform Act to themselves. What was the history
of this Bill? It was brought forward by the Hon. Mem-
ber from his knowledge of the city of London. He
moved, in the first plate., for the amount of fines and fees
payable in every city and borough in England, and then
before g' tting any information be brought in his Bill
affecting the property of all the corporations throughout
England, without the consent of the inhabitants, with-
out any application from a single member of any town-
council, or from elsewhere. If such a thing were re-
quired, if the old corporations wished it, the town coun-
cils could abolish fincs to-morrow. Why, then, come
with an Act of Parliament and take away their property,
and deprive the corporations of the right of self-govern-
ment? No petitions had been presented in favour of the
Bill, and the Hon. Member had not inquired into the
subject except in reference to the city of London. The
Common Council of the City was a body elect-d an- i
nually, why not leave thp matter to the corporation it-
self ? Did the Hon. Member mean to say that the Bill
was in accordance with the wishes of the inhabitants of
London or the Corporation?
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY—Of the inhabitants gene-
rally.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—They have pre-
sented no pe Vtions.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY—I presented one.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.—I know that the
Corporation do not entertain that opinion.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY—Many do.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—If they had tha'
feeling they might do it to-morrow. They first invested
these bodies with the prirciple of local government.
and the subject was submitted to them, and because
one of their members happened to be also a Member of
Parliament, he sought to def at their decision by
making Parliament a Court of Appeal. The Munici-
pal Reform Act abolished freedom by purchase, but this
formed no part cf the Hon. Member's project. The
Hon. Member had estimated the loss to the revenue at
about 600/. He was mistaken ; it was between 2,000/.
and 3,000/.
Mr. FORSTER admitted the abuses which the Hon.
Mover had detailed to the House, but objected to all
piecemeal Corporation Reform. He admitted the re-
forms which bad been introduced into the Corporation et
London within the last forty years, but still thought it
not creditable to the Government to have excepted the
city cf London. Ho could not, however, concur with
the lion. and Learned Attorney-General in thinking
that they ought to wait till the Corporation itself stirred
in the matt sr.
Colonel SIBTIIORP would be willing to assist in re-
moving fines and penalties, but he regarded this as a
Bill for th© city of London alone, and as a sort of party
motion. He thought it extremely hard that the City. of
London should have been excepted from the operation
of the Municipal Reform Act; but as long as that city
had Prime Ministers for their representatives such
a state of things was to to expected. He complaind
that the Honourable Mover had given so little,
notice of his motion. He, for instance, had bad
no opportunity of consulting his constituents on
the subject, and he agreed with the Honourable and
Learned Attorney-General that it was unjust to affect
the property c f parties without their concurrence. He
recommended the worthy Alderman to withdraw his mo-
tion. It appeared to him to be a milk-and-water sort
f motion, and not worthy the consideration or support
of the House.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. Member and the House did
not appear to be aware of what ha 1 taken place with
reference to the city of London. Tho Hon. Member
opposite said there ought to be an inquiry, but there had
been already one of the most searching inquiries that
ever had been instituted with reference to the city of
London by Mr. Blackburn and Mr. Palgrave. The
Hon. Member merely wished to place the citizens of
London on the same footing as the citizens cf other
towns. He asked the Government whether it was not
their duty to do so, seeing that they had pledged them-
selves to bring in a reform Bill for the city of London.
He thought their doing so would be only an act of jus-
tice; equality, and fairness.
Sir B. HALL said, after what had fallen from the
Right Honourable Gentleman, he could not suppose
that the motion was likely to meet wi,h any great
success. He did not think, however, that the time N.
consumed in the discussion had ben entirely
thrown away, because the question had been brought
bef ore the House of the unreformed state of the Cor-
poration of the city of Londcn. When the reform of
municipal corporations had been undertaken by the
Government, the city of London wax not included; bu•
there was a most distinct pledge given by the Govern-
ment that a Bill would shortly be brought in for that
purpose. Since then many years had passed; and,
although ample opportunities had been afforded to them,
no measure of that kind had yet been introduced. He
was glad, therefore, that the present conversation bad
taken place, because the attention of the public would be
thereby directed to a subject which he thought should
have been long since brought forward for discussion. It
was stated by the Hon. Member that the funds of the
Corporation of London amounted to 200,000/. per
annum, over which neither the Parliament nor the
public had any control. That alone was a sufficient
reason why the question should be taken into considera-
tion, with a view to introducing some measure of re-
form which might give the Legislature or the public
some control over that large expenditure. He did not
mean to say that the Corporation of London was cor-
rupt, but they kept it as close as possible; and when
the Honourable Gentleman, and others in his situa-
tion,
put on the aldermanic gown, the election being'
for life, they became as conservative of the privileges of
the City as it was possible to be. With regard to the
motion of the Hon . Member, he did not think it was
worth noticing. It might be a good Bill for the Mem-
ber for Stafford to introduce, but it would not effect the
necessary reforms in the Corporation of London. He
recollected having been invited some years since to stand
for the borough of Stafford, and one of the conditions
was that he should pay certain fees of freemen of the
borough to enable them to vote. He had declined to
stand on such conditions.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY replied the motion had been
termed paltry because it referred to the case of poor men,
but what was paltry in the eyes of that House was of
all importance to the humbler classes. He should with-
draw the motion for the present, and re-introduce it when
the returns to which tho Attorney-General had referred
were laid on the table.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL objected to the motion.
being withdrawn, and would not sanction the principle
of its beintr ag,r:tin introduced.

Mr. REYNOLDS suggested the propriety of bring-
ing in a Bill simply to place the ratepayers of the city
of London on the same footing as those of other towns
and cities of the kingdom, and give them thereby a
voice in the municipal elections.
The m.ttion was then negatived.
DUTY ON TIMBER.

Mr. MITCHELL moved, pursuact to notice, " that
this House do resolve itself into a Committee to take
into consideration the duties on wood, with the view of
remitting the duty on all Wood used in shipbuilding."
He regretted to see so few Hon. Members on the Oppo-
sition side of the House, because when the repeal of the
navigation-laws was discussed in the last session they
had heard many eloquent speeches from that side of the
g9use, pointing 9tit that the effect 9i that memo

would be to throw the whole of the shipbuilding trade
o fthe country into the hands of foreigners. The ques-i
tion he was about to submit to the House was simply one
regarding the interests of shipbuilders and shipwrights,
and had nothing whatever to do with timber-tnerchants.
He would premise that he was himself a wood-merchent.
Ile Legged to remind the House that in 1844, when the
Right Hor. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) brought forward his
proposition for the reduction of the duties on foreign
timber, the price in the English market was 105 s. the
load—at the present time the same description of
timber was selling for 65e.; the duty was formerly 555.,
and it had been reduced by the Right
Honourable Baronet to 155., so that the public
had got the entire benefit of the reduction of the
duty in that ease. By the Bill of last year the duty on
all foreign ships admitted to home registration had been
entirely taken off, and if a British subject now chose to
buy a fereien ship, that ship was at, once admitted to all
the privileges of British-built vessels, without the pay-
ment of aly duty whatever. At present hewn timber
paid 15i. duty, sawn timber, 20s. ; in esti and spars, the
smaller size, 2 ts., and the larger six e 48s. Now it was
known that every ship built was entered on Lloyd's Re-
gister according to a certain classification—the highest
class standirg, thirteen years in the A list, and the
lowest class fear years. The difference arose from the
difference in the materials of which they were con-
structed. lle would now state to the House what was
the per centage which the duty on foreign timber bore
t i the gross cost of the construction of the ship. He
would take it according to the most accurate calculation
that had been made, that the cost of a 12 A ship was
about 141. for ton; and he had assumed that as much
foreign timber was put into that ship as would be re-
quired, according to Lloyd's ru'ee. He found that the
per centage of a 12-year A ship upon the quantity of
foreign timber, masts, spars, &e., was, as compared with
the gross cost, about 9-t6ths percent. The per centage
of the cost of the 11 A ship was 5-Bths per cent.; on
the 10 A ship it was q; on the 9 A ship it was 44
per cent.; on the 8 A ship it was 64 per cent.; on the 7
A ship, 12 per cent.; on the 6 A ship, 13i per cent.; on
the 5 A ship, 15-i per cent.; and on the 4 A ship, 17
per cent. Beginning at the 9A, and down t i the 4A,
a very large per centage was given to the foreign ship-
builder. He admitted that the English shipbuilders were
remarkable for building ships of a superior class. Those
from A 12 to A 9 were ships generally employed in the
East India and China trade, and that trade required very
superior veesels. It was admitted that the per centage
with regard to vessels of that class was a mere bagatelle,
as those ships were built regardless of expense. The
second Bless included 8,7, and 6 A ships. These were
acquired to bring home corn from the Mediterranean,
hemp, flax, and corn from the Baltic, and cotton from
the United States. Now two kinds of the cotton brought
to this country were brought home in American ships,
and if superior ships were sent from this country the
freight would not pay, there being the greatest competi-
tion in that class of ships. The question was whether the
trade could go on satifactorily if the present berden was
continued, and he did not think their ship-builders
could compete much longer with the Americans. With
regard to the third class, 6 and 5 A, they were em-
ployed principally in bringing home timber, and they
came into competition with the ships built in Canada.
He did not see why so enormous a premium should be
given to Canadian-built ships. He admitted that it was
not the interest of the country to encourage the building
of ships of a superior class as it told very heavily upon
the growth of English oak. At present a party must go
at least twenty miles from a ship-building yard to pro-
cure oak, and it was already telling upon it, so that it
was generally thought that young oaks were touched too
soon. In no other case was a ready-made article
admitted duty free, and it was in the present eve a gross
infliction on the industry of the country. With regard
to the practically carrying out of his plan, he believed
there would be no difficulty in ascertaining the amount
of the drawback upon the timber used in ship-building.
A gentleman of great experience in the trade had told
him that there would be no difficulty whatever—the
ship was built under the survey of Lloyd's surveyor,
who took an accurate account of the timber used ;
and, in addition to his report, they might have the
certificate of the building of the ship. The annual
overage tonnage of the ships built in this country was
140,000 tons—the proportion of foreign timber used was
about one-fourth, and the number of loads was about
equal to the number of tons. The fourth of 140,000
tons then was 35,000, and the entire amount of the
duty he asked the Government to remit, averaging it
at 20s. the load, wa5135,000/. For that sum a stimulus
would be given to the industry of a class which bad
lately been exposed to severe competition. He hoped
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) would not,
in his reply, quote the case of some foreigners who had
purchased ships built in the north of England, which
had been already sufficiently explained. The price of
all descriptions of shipbuilding materials had never
been so low as at the present moment. He hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman would, under all the circum-
stances, take the matter into his consideration and do
justice to the claims of a most important and useful
class of the community.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HEADLAM seconded the motion. The present
system was not in accordance with either the maxims
of policy or of taxation which had been recently laid
town by the Government.
Mr. LABOUCHERE ,complimented the Honourable
Member for Bridport on the tone and temper in which
he had brought the present important question before
the Hence. He had stated the case of the English ship-
builders not only with his accustomed ability, but with
the clearness of ore who had a thorou.;h knowledge of
the subject. He did not intend to enter int.) a contro-
versy with the llonourable Gentleman as to the gensral
principle, and he must say that he addressed the House
under very considerable disadvantages, and he should be
mistaken if he left upon the Honourable Gentleman the
.mpression that he either concurred in, or disapproved
f, the proposition to take off 35,0001.—(A laugh.) The
!louse would bear in mind that they would very shorty
,save the financial statement of his Right Hon. Friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer laid before the House,
Ind he hoped the II us. Gentleman would not attribute
to any want of respect his giving expression to any
opinion upon the subject. As the financial statement
would be laid so much carnet. than usual before the
&w e, it would not be advisable fur him to
express any decided opinion upon the subject.
he hoped that the House would accept this as a
reason for saying that he could not advise the House
at that moment to agree to the motion of the
Honourable Gentleman. As to the higher classes of
vessels, the duty upon timber was very imma-
terial. The burden, he admitted, was much more
considerable upon the smaller classes. He thought that
even with these duties their shipwrights were fully able
to contend with those of any foreign country. That,
aowever, did not furnish a sufficient reason why, if they
Found it coevenient with their interests, this duty should
not be removed.—(Hear, hear.) Although their ship-
vrights were subject to great disadvantages by reason of
his impost, they enjoyed countervailing advantages. In
Prussia, for instance, in respect to the article of iron, the
Prussian shipowners paid far more for their iron in the
construction of their vessels than the British shipwrights
had to pay fur theirs. While ho saw that these ship-
vrighte did not fear foreign competition, he did not
mean to say that it would not be desirable to remove
these duties if it were convenient to do so.—(llear, hear.)
As reference bad been made to Sweden, he hal to in-
rorm the Howes that he held in his hand an extract from
s letter received from their Consul at Stockholm on this
subject. This gentleman stated that since the altera-
tion in the English navigetion-laws he took every
'pportunity of watching the effect produced upon the
shipbuilding in Sweden. He said that from what he
bad seen it did not appear that the English ship-
builders suffered in the slightest degree from the
:emapetition that was created, and he had been in-
firmed by one of the principal shipowners there that
he invariably imported all his cordage and other
articles connected with ships from England, which
enabled him, notwilstanding the duties upon them, to
have a much superior vessel than could be fitted up at
Stockholm —(Hear, he tr.) He (Mr. Labouchere) felt
the importance of giving the greatest encouragement to
their shipbuilding, feeling that it aas a matter of na-
tional importance to do so, yet he was unwilling at that
moment, for the reasons he had stated, to assent to the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman. He hoped the House
would consider how very soon the financial statement
would be before them, and would therefore see the im-
propriety and imprudence of discussing this question on
the present occasion. He thought that the House would
involve itself in some difficulty, and would not do its
duty to the public as fairly as it ought, if they assented
to this motion before they were able to take a survey of
their whole financial affairs.
Mr. CARDWELL thought he might congratulate the
Right Hon. Gentleman for having maintained that equi-
poise upon this subject which he had promised to ob-
serve in the commencement of his speech. lie thought
that the principal object which the Right Honourable
Gentleman had in view was to conceal the intentions of
the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, which were to be revealed in the speech to
he made in about ten days hence. He believed that this
veil of secrecy as to futurity had never been drawn more
closely by any Minister of State. It was a speech
which did not even enable him to perform the part of a
prophet in anticirating any of the propositions that
would be made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in
his budget speech. If he were to venture or surmise
upon that subject from the speech they had just heard,
he would be disposed to say that the Government would
not be unfavourable to the proposition now made.—
(Hear, hear.) At the commencement of this century,
they imported a great quantity of timber from the Baltic.
He was, however, happy now to say that they could
compete successfully with Prussia, particularly in iron.
If they saddled this article with extreme duties of 15 or
17 per cent., they would be only exposing the capitalist
here to great disadvantages. Had they not exposed the
shipowners of this country to a competition with the
world by their recent legislation?—(Hear, hear.) Since
1842, had they not, as far as they could, made it the
great principle in their commercial legislation to set fie e
from duty the raw material, in order to give the greatest
scope to industry?—(Hear, hear.) Having done so, they
also exposed their shipbuilding to general competition by
the measure of last year. He asked them to show a sin-
gle instance in the whole of their tariff where they had
taxed their raw material and at the same time had not
protected the manufactured article. If this Le the case,
where, he would ask, was there either justice or ex-
pediency in refusing to remove these duties? He, how-
ever, thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman was cor-
rect when he said that it would be most inconvenient if
they discus=sed such subjects as this before the budget
was revealed to them, which was so soon to be brought
under their consideration, when the general taxation of
the country would be reviewed. He hoped that next
week they would have the pleasure of congratulating
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer upon his return to his health and to his duties
in that House; and he hoped that they would be also
enabled to congratulate him upon a largo surplus, which
could be wide ttvglAble tv the Pniii&i9l4 of 01919 dudes