The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-14 00:00:00

He begged leave to move that this Bill be read a second
time.
Mr. SPOONER did not rise for the purpose of
making any observations on the merits of the Bill.
His object was to put it to the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Manchester himself whether he thought
it proper to press this Bill so hastily on the House.—
(Hear, hear.) This Bill was only delivered to Members
on Saturday night last. Many Hon. Members were
out of town on Saturday and did not return till Monday
evening, leaving them only a day to peruse a Bill con-
sisting of ninety clauses, and to make themselves ac-
quainted with its provisions. He moved that the debate
be adjourned.
An HON. MEMBER seconded the motion.
Mr. STANFORD said, though he spoke only in his
individual capacity, he believed he could state that many
of his friends around him, as well as himself, though
they sat on that (the Opposition) side of the House, were
of opinion that taxation and representation should go
together. He had read this Bill with a legal eye, and
his own opinion was that it did not carry out that great
principle. With respect to the question of adjournment,
he was of opinion that the House should go at once into
a consideration of the principle of the Bill before it.
Sir GEORGE GREY said with regard to the
motion of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Spooner) he
(Sir G. Grey) should not ask for any postponement of
the consideration of the Bill. Ho was not prepared to
express an opinion on the details of the Bill, but ho
thought as the Bill was only delivered to Members a
few days ago, looking to the language of the Bill, and
the great change it contemplated, it was not an unreason-
able request for the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Spooner) to make. There must be an inquiry either
way; it was quite impossible that this Bill should re-
ceive the sanction of the Legislature without the fullest
inquiry.--(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that he did hope the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester would still
consent to the postponement of the discussion on this
most important Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He did think that
the House was not is possession of sufficient information
to decide upon the principle of such an extensive melt-
sure.—(Hear, hear.) It was not to ;be supposed that
such a principle as this, which affected every county in
England could pass without a very lengthy discussion,
and here they were at nearly four o'clock, and the House
closed at six. How could the Right Hon. Gentleman
expect to come to a division in time, and if not, what
good could possibly arise from refusing the postpone-
ment which had been suggested by the;Hon. Member
for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner.)—(Hear, hear.) For
his own part, he was greatly in want of information for
the amendment which he intended to propose in Com-
mittee.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that it was not surprising that the
Hon. Bart. (Sir.:J. Pakington) was in want of informa-
tion, for he was not in the House at the time the principle
of this Bill was first mooted. Such, however, was not
the case with the House generally, for the question had
been discussed over and over again, and the
most ample evidence lad been adduced upon
it that could possibly be required. By the Re-
form Bill they had instituted the principle, that all
the ratepayers should have a voice in the choice of
their representatives, and as long ago as the time of
Lord Althorp, Mr. Portman, now Lord: Portman, had
presided over a Committee, before which all the neces-
sary information was given—(Hear, hear)—and he did
hope, therefore, that the House would not assent to this
suggestion for a postponement.—(Cheers.) They had
adopted the principle of representation in all other
things, and why not then adopt it in this matter. By
their legislation they had saved au immense sum to the
county ratepayers.—(Hear, hear.) The county outlay,
which formerly was only 250,000/., had risen to 500,0001.
and 600,0001., and hail they not a:few years ago taken off
upwards of 500,000/., it would at the present time have
amounted to 1,800,0001. They had already adopted
the principle of representation in merely political mat-
ters, and why not, then, give every ratepayer a
voice in the disposal of his own money?—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He deeply regretted that the Right
lion. Baronet the Secretary of the Home Department
had given any sanction for the suggestion of a post-
ponement, and trusted that it would be nullified by the
decision of the House.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL (who spoke, much to the surprise of
every one, from one of the back benches on the
Opposition side of the House, near where Sir J.
Graham usually sits) said, the question they had
now to consider was, what was the best course
for them to pursue in order to come to a
fair and satisfactory decision on this important sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) Now he had no hesitation in say-
ing that if the Right Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr.
T. M. Gibson) would assent to the proposition of the
lion. Member for Warwickshire, that they would at least
be in a better position at a future period for coming to
such a decison than they were at present.—(Hear, hear.)
It was true that they had had evidence adduced before
them, but what they wanted was the information of to-
day—(Hear)—and he did not think that without that
information they would be able to arrive at a satisfactory
conclusion.—(Hear, hear,) They would by the delay
also have the opportunity for consulting with their con-
stituents on a matter in which they were so largely con-
cerned.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, what would be lost by
the delay? It was very evident, that it would be impos-
sible to come to a division to-day, and if the facts had been
adduced last session, that was no reason why they
should not be revived, and added to in this.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member for Warwickshire had frequently de-
clared that he was not opposed to the principle of the
Bill, but that he required more information in order to
meet the details, and he did hope, therefore, that the
lion. Member tor Manchester would assent to a post-
ponement of the second reading till a future day.
Mr. T. M. GIBSON said that he looked upon the
proposition f,r adjournment as nothing more than an in-
direct attempt to shelve the question altogether, a result to
which he could never be a par:y.—(Cheers.) The Right
lion. Baronet opposite would see that such was the case
when he took into considetwion the position of an in-
dependent Member of that House. If the Government
consented to au adjournment of a Bill, they could always
fix the day for its resumption; but if an independent
Member assented to an adjournment, it was often
nothing more than tantamount to negativing the
question for the whole session.—(Hear, bear.) Perhaps,
atter all, the Government would give a little assistance,
and the Noble Lord at the head of the Ireasury would
throw a little light upon the matter, and give some
assurance that the second reading should then be taken.
—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had undertaken the
charge of this Bill, and could not take upon himself the
responsibility of assenting to the delay without some
such guarantee. It was true that he could not resist this
pressure, and hoped, therefore, that some certain day
would be given for the discussion of this important
subject.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that before they came to a de-
cision on such a matter as this they ought to be in pos-
session of full information, and he, for his own part,
knew little or nothing about the Bill.
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to relieve the Right
Hon. Member from the grievous pressure of which ho

complainel. The counties hardly knew that he was

taking such all interest in their proceedings. He begged
to rewind the Hight Hon. Gentleman that in pressing
this measure s• earnestly upon the attention

f the House at

the present moment, when

he was told by so - many practical men
that they had not had time to consider it, he was bring-
ing himself under the suspicion not of being solely zeal-
ous for the measure itself as of seeking the reputation of
the .‘ farmers' friend ;" and it was perfectly well known
by the farmers that he (Mr. Gibson) was not their friend.
As for the county which he (Mr. Newdegate) repre-
sented, though it would be glad to receive the mea-
sure itself, it would be sorry to receive it from the source
from which it was to come.

After a fore words from Sir HENRY HALFORD,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that though he could
not pretend to understand the logic of the question any
more than his Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
Gibson), yet he must say that he did not see in
wtiat better position the Bill would be if the
second reading were persevered in. He did not
think that some portion of delay to enable MernLera to
consider the measure, and the consequences which would
result from it, would be at all injurious. The Lion. and
Learned Member for Sheffield bad asked what was the
disposition of Government with regard to the principle
of the measure. He could only say that for himself he
was so strongly in fa►our of the introduction of
that principle that h• should give his cordial
suppert to the second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
He should do so without at all undertaking the detence
of any of the details of the Bill, for he thought a Select
Committee would be most fitted to deal with them.

Mr. M. GIBSON then said ho would postpone tho se.
cond reading until the 6th of March.
REAL PROPERTY TRANSFER BILL.

Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS rose to ask leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the laws relative to the ma-
nagement of the highways in England and Wales. The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to enter into a detail of the rea-
sons which rendered some measure of this sort necessary.
All classes of the community—people of all diversities
of character—were, he considered, interested in seeing
the highway rates economically managed. The evils
Of the present system were to be mainly attri-
buted to the inconvenient arrangement of the dis-
tricts. Each parish had a separate jurisdiction over
its highways, and in some instances in the
north of England even townships were divided. The
surveyor of each district was appointed by the guardians,
but he received no salary, and he generally had no pro-
fessional knowledge of highways, and his accounts were
kept in a very imperfect manner. The result of
the present system had, therefore, been want of eco-
nomy, and want of skill, and an useless expenditure
of money. To remedy these evils it would be necessary
to give further operation to the principle of combined
management, to form new districts, and to make it com-
pulsory to employ paid surveyors; and those were the
principles upon which the present Bill was founded. It
had been suggested that the magistrates should form the
districts and appoint the surveyors; but this appeared
to him an objectionable course, for if they took the
power of appointing a surveyor out of the hands of the
ve.try, they would deprive the ratepayers of a privilege
which they now possessed. Now in this Bill he proposed
simply to take the divisions of the poor-law unions, and to
continue the existing board of guardians, and therefore he
rendered it unnecessary to make any fresh territorial
divisions, or to appoint any new elective body. With
regard to the expenditure, he proposed that every pa-
rish or township should continue to pay the expenses of
its own highway precisely as at present, and the only
additional charge which would be made upon them, and
what they would share in common, would be the salary
of the surveyor. With respect to the highways, he pro-
posed to do away with the parish surveyor altogether,
to abolish the highway rate, and to require the sum
necessary for the repairs of the highways to be collected
by the overseers under the head of poor rates, to which
it might almost be considered to belong. There was a
maximum rate fixed under the present law, and he
proposed to cpathwe it. With regard to the
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