The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-04 00:00:00

the bishops upon questions of doctrine in precisely the
same manner.—(Hear hear.) He certainly should ob-
ject to refer to the discretion of any party—to the dis-
cretion of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council,
or the Minister of the day, that selection of the arch-
bishop or bishops—for the guidance and direction of the
whole Church. It was because he saw an evil with
which it was necessary to grapple without loss of
time that he could not follow the example of one
Right Rev. Prelate, who, because he was desirous of
condemning the Bill, declared he would record his
vote against the second reading.—(Hear, hear.) Here
was a Bill brought forward on the authority of a Right
Rev. Prelate for whom no man entertained a higher
respect. He believed the Bill had received the assent of a
majority of the members of the Episcopal bench, and he
knew it was supported by a large body of clergymen of
various shades of opinion and by many of the laity, mad
seeing no other remedy for the great and grievous evil
which existed he could not consent to vote against the
second reading of the Bill, which he would rather accept
-in its present shape than have no measure at all; but
which, when modified in Committee, would answer the
reasonable expectations of all who desired a change of
the present system.—(Hear.)
Tne Earl of HARR() WRY, disapproving cf the
principle of the Bill, could not vote for the second read-
ing. lie tor one said he would not entrust the power
now sought for to any body of ecclesiastics. He be-
lieved they were safe in the hands of the judges as inter •
preters. If the heresy was one which required the eye
of a theologian to discover it, he believed it was better
to let it alone.—(Cheers.) This, he said, was the course
for them to pursue in this free country. It was better
for them to leave things as they were.
The Bishop of OXFORD said he had never risen
with so much reluctance in that House as on that occa-

sion—a reluctance which was founded, not on any doubt
as to the vote he was about to give, or the side he ought
to advocate, nor even the feeling that in the part he took
he would be subjected to the imputation of party motives
or party feeling, or that he was desirous of promoting
the separation between Church and State. In order to
discuss this question, he wished to bring them back te
great principles. What, he asked, was the object and the
purpose of the Church, about which they were to legislate?
Was it for the gratification of the feelings of individuals?
One Noble Lord said he was a friend of the Church.
Yes; he was a member of the Church on one side of a
river, and not a member of the Church on the other side
of the river.—(Laughter.) But the Noble Lord said he
was a great friend of the Church. Now, he would ask
that friend of the Church, if the Church Isere founded
that men might belong to it or not as they liked, as if it
were a club ?—(Hear.) The Church was founded to
maintain a certain deposit of truth. For that object it
must have the means of declaring what was .he truth,
whenever the truth was impugned. Then with whom was
that power lodged, and by whom was it to be adminis-
tered? He ask el every Noble Lord who came there
pleiged to vote against the Bill, who were the proper
judges of what was the original deposit of the truth ?
Must it be men outside the Church or men in it? The
Noble Lord who spoke last said that so far from eccle-
siastics being the best, they were the worst, because they
knew too much. The same fallacy run through the argu-
ment of the Noble Marquis. There was a truth re-
vealed—that was not to be added to or diminished to the
end of time. The greatest of all innovators was time.
The authority was established to prevent the corruptions
of that great innovator, and that authority must say
"this is new, and, therefore, it is wiong."—(Hear, hear.)
When the Church had assembled at Nieca, it met merely
to decide the meaning of the word " son." That
which was then the question upon which the bulk of
the Church hinged was settled by the discussion of the
matter amongst those who were appointed the trustees of
its faith, and who bore that commission which we bear in
our hands at this very moment, The name of Athanasius
was great, inasmuch as he prevented Arius from foanding
a new doctrine, by simply expounding the sacred words
according to the interpetation which the Catholic has
sista) s put upon it. Would Noble Lords, he asked, be
content to have the question which was settled at Nicea
settled by the Judicial Cenamittee of the Privy Council?
The part of the laity in olden times was to accept end
ratify there truths. He would hate the laity to do the
same now. The offise-bearers of the Church have been
invested with these powers fur the purpose cf guiding
and directing the laity. They are entrusted with a de-
posit of truth which they cannot throw aside. He con-
fessed that he heard with pain the speech of the Right
Rev. Prelate behind him, because it seemed to him to in-
volve that which was very objectionable, namely, that
there was no such thing as truth beyond what each
man had thought to be truth. He believed that the
principle sought to be established by the opponents to
this measure was highly dangerous at this particular
moment. He thought that the objections that were urged
against the Btli enianat .d from an impatience of con-
trol. This was one of the most fearful symptoms of the
present day. If the result sought for by the Noble Mar-
quis be attained, the last hope of a great many who were
ewaiting this decision with feverish anxie:y would be
extinguished. In one arc ',deaconry alone there were 140
of the clergy who had petitioned in favour of this Bill.
He regretted much the language used by the Noble Lord
on tee present occasion—language characterised by more
than his usual impetuosity. The Noble Lord had almost
pronounced a declaration of war against every one in the
Church of England who was not prepared to give up
what they considered was the sacred truths entrustei to
their custody. We were told, that this Bill if it passel,
would inWnge upon the Queen's supremacy. lie denied
it. Be value-d that supremacy as highly as any man
living. The Crown is the ultimate appeal in all ques-
tions ecclesiastical and civil, and is to decide such
questions thrcugh the proper constitutional agents.
That was the supremacy of the Crown.—(llear, hear.)
All that the Bill proposed to do is to furnish to the
Crown additional means of information. The Noble
Lord said that if we once committed matters of doctrine
to the settlement of the bishops, the first question that
would be asked would be, What is the doctrine?" He
(the Bishop of Oxf.;rd) should say that it is at present,
and ought ever to be, the very first question asked.—
(Hear.) This appeared to be the most extraordinay ob-
jection that he had ever heard urged against a measure
of this kind. But this objection, after all, proceeded
from a very low estimate of the Church's office—from
a feeling that we ought to be full of kindness and tolera-
tion towards the most unorthodox, instead of viewing us,
as Christ's ministers, with responsibility which we could
not sludge off. Loving the Church of England, and be-
lieving it to be God's choicest blessing amongst the un-
numbered blessings that have been poured upon this
happy land—believing that it teaches those doctrines of
Christ which were so nobly taught by the Reformers
three centuries ago—believing that it is the bulwark of
England's throne, and the safeguard of English liberty,
he for one would support with all his heart a measure
which he considered essential to her interests—the re-
jection of which, he was confident, would tend to her
severance. But when they had done all that they would
have weakened the Church irreparably in her highest
vccation.—(Cheers.) The Church of Scotland had been
allowed more power than was now asked for the Church
of England. It had been said to-night that they were
asked to upset the wisdom of centuries, but that as-
sertion had been met by the Noble Baron opposite.
He besought their Lordships not to be led away
from doing justice by any fear of what might fol-
low. Let them go into Committee to give the measure
their consideration. Do not alienate from the Church
finally and for ever a pretty large body of the English
Church.—(Cries of " Oh!") He ref eared it—do not
!et them alienate from the Church a pretty large body
of the Church by the conviction that they will not be
met with justice, but listen to their complaints, and see
whether they could not remedy their wrongs.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE explained.
The Earl of CARLISLE said, that the proposal of
the Right Reverend Prelate, being to cquatituae the
bench of bishops a new court of appeal,. aril objection
to the measure might by some' be regarded, as involving.
disrespect to their own colleagues; but for his own part,
in objecting to the measure he, dischiimed*iy intention
of casting a slight upon: the night Reverend Bench. A
Noble Lord opposite had found fault with the heads of
.fie :_;Church foe not taking a more active part as
leaderi in the movement; but he thought the thanks of
the country sere due to them for not following the ex-
Ireaffi party in the agitation. In expressing his regret
that he was not able to concur in the proposal, he did
not wish it to be understood that he would condemn
an alteration in the court of appeal if it were advisable
at the present time to make it. At the proper time he
should not be disposed to make the ecclesiastical mem-
bers of the Privy Council the actual members of the
Court of appeal. But on the present occasion he was
not prepared to vote for the second reading with the
view of adopting any such proposition. They had bees
told tbat the measure was brought forward to secure
the peace of the Church; but what would be the effect
of the Privy Council finding themselves precluded
from adopting a suggestion recommended by a ma-
jority of the bishops' Would not such a aivision be
prejudicial to the union and peace of the Church?—
(Hear, hear.) He thought the question they had now to
consider was, whether it was desirable to adopt the pro-
posal without reference either to the precedent, or the
24th Henry VIII. As regarded the Queen's supremacy,
nothing could be so different as the law which now
existed and the proposal of the Right Rev. Prelate.
i_esp
trkinwsnee wes ount ld
ff
circumstances.
tnNhoei tecefaoou:lnobcwuilt the Right
Nf Right Rev. Prelate into the
apprehendediteheea
we
questionsre different th aattt
issue
urc
oiermcu the
were-
mere abstract doctrine the bench of bishops might be
the best judges; but they were questions which affected
the rights of families and the descent of property;
and he, therefore, thought that they would be better
decided by men accustomed to sift evidence and weigh
soul's the
bestseand wisest men
differed
. thenAt asubject
eseefs
theenjoyed their
what he con-
tended was, that Men r benefices in this
matters were were of
country by the law of the land. These
too high and too serious a nature to admitc
assertion, seeing that some of the wisest meno have dogmatic
rived at different conclusions. He thought the receanr;
judgment was one which should give universal satisfac-
tion • and, seeing its happy issue, he should be sorry to
see their Lordships do any act which by superseling the
i tribunal that delivered it, would appear to pass a censure
upon that tribunal. In conclusion, he would only say,
that as the Right Reverend Prelate had alluded meat
ee the loss of those
feelingly to the condition of theldChfurlch, and bitterly as
he thought, if they were
very
ff on this occasion, they must sit loosely
eminenthe (the Earlmen oafdvCeratreldislet)o,s
shaken 0 the Churchinfluence;
and
a s far a t na os
lafnd
power, she gained in p
on the Church's garment. If
But if she grasped at
would be her assurance for ever.
her political relations woewre concerned, in peace and quiet
powers not
be her weakness, her
from the national fund:, it would
believed the plan of the
her own, and sought pecuniary resources
impotence, and her ruin. He
Right Rev. Prelate to be a sort o
adopted by that House,
of compromise between
discordant opinions; but even if
be could not aur in favour of its ultimate success.
Ile held in his hand a memorial from some of the most i
pious clergymen in London against the meutuze; and it