The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-02 00:00:00

Reform Bill for Ireland. He asked only the same fran-
chiso as that in England and Scotland. He asked re-
presentation on the principle of revenue and populat;oe,
and he regretted the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland
had not in his Bill thought fit to increase the number of
Irish Members. He had taken the trouble to compile a
statetneat from the returns laid on the table of the
House, which showed that in the thirty-two counties of
Ireland the population was 7,435,000; number of voters
enrolled, 33:804; number who would be enrolled under
this Bill, 370,000; or, with deductions, probably 274,000.
He had made a similar calculation with respect to bo
roughs. Ile found in Athlone 349 enrolled; voted, 196.
Belfast, 4,234 enrolled; voted 2,000. Clonmel, 687 en-
rolled; voted, 321. Carlow, enrolled, 417; voted, 175.
Cork, enr011ed,4,965; voted,l,6oo. Coleraine, enrolled,36B;
voted, 176. Drogheda, enrolled, 734; voted, 307. Dub-
lin, enrolled, 19,562; voted, 7,000. Dundalk, enrolled,
538; voted, 245. Dungannon, enrolled, 434; voted, 286.
Kinsale, enrolled, 216; voted, 189. Limerick, enrolled,
2,063; voted, 600. Mallow, enrolled, 335; voted, 130.
New Ross, enrolled, 270; voted, 124. Waterford, en-
rolled, 1,696; voted, 800. Youghal, enrolled, 493;
voted, 176. Total, of 16 boroughs, in 1847, enrolled,
37,374; voted, 14,305. He had often referred to a
Parliamentary paper, furnished on the motion of the
Hon. Member for Msrylebone, which showed that the
Scotch and English boroughs, with a population cf
7,700,000, had 417,587 electors, and returned 358 Mem-
bers, while Ireland, with a population of 8,175,000. re-
turned 105 Members, with votes not exco ding 30,000
in number. The Hon. Member for Middlesex, the
Nestor of ref trm, almost cried as he pictured the state
of things in Eigland, where, the total of the whole
population being 16,000,000, there were no more than
1,000,000 of Parliamentary voters. But whilst England
and Wales returrei about 500 members, with a popula-
tion of 16,000,000, Ireland, with 8,000,000, only re-
turned 105. He knew there were many Irish Members
who would ask him, why trouble your head with
an Irish Franchise Bill? There were Members
who, when they had secured the honour e f MP.
after their names, thought all their Parliamentary
duties accomplished, and absented themselves from the
House. He would not be guilty of anything so invidious
as t) mention names, but his fellow-countrymen were in-
telligent enough to look at the printed list aid see what
had become of their represeetatives. Where, the ladle i
would ask, are the men who came here coaxing our
husbands and kissing our children? lie knew many
would say, if he asked them where they were when the
battle of the franchise was fought, that they had no con
fidence in an English House of Commons. To this, his
answer would be, then resign, and let other men Ii i
your seats.—(Hear, heir.) He had confidence in an
English House of Commons, and ho believed that the
battle of Ire'and was to be fought on the floor of that
House, lie had made a list of six English and six
boroughs, all sending Members to that House. lye would
first take the English boroughs. He found that And-
over, with a population of 4,997, had 243 voters, and re-
turned two members; Knareshorough, a population 01
5,352; voters 223; returning tvo members. The! f
a population of 3,854; vs tees, 214; returning two stem
hers. Harwich, a population of 3,730; voters, 268; re-
turning two members. Marlborough, a population of
4,130; voters, 255; returning two members. Itch-
monl, a population of 4,301; v,tn3, 265; returning two
members, giving an aggreg, t 'population of 26,333; voters
1 473; returning 12 members. He would now take thi
six Irish boroughs. He f mud that Cork bed a popula-
tion of 80 720; voters, 3,2t4; membet-, 2. Dcblin, pc-
pulstion, 232,726; voters, 15,449; members, 2. Galway,
popula ion, 32,511; voters, 1,922; members, 2. Lime-
rick, population, 48,391; vot re, 1,246; members, 2
Waterford, population, 23,316; voters, 1,273; members.
2. Belfast, population, 75,303; voters, 4,701; members,
2. Showing an aggregate population of 492,972; voters,
27,73.5; memle:rs, 12. He presumed the question on
whioh the Committee were about to divide was whether
the qualifica*ion was to be Si. or 15/. He should record
his vote against the 151., and gave notice that if' that
motion were lost, as he prophesied it would be, he would
feel it his duty to move another amendment, to the efihet
that every person so qualified as aforesaid and rated to
the relief of the poor in any county of Ireland should be
eetitled to be enrolled as a Parliamentary elector, and he
would propose to leave out the words "eight pounds" as
the minimum rating, for the purpose of substituting
four pounds." With regard to another part of the
clause to which they had not yet come, nemely, that part
which provided that in order t be enrolled it should be
a condition precedent that the rate should be paid, it
was his intention to take the sense of the Committee, for
he held that you had no more right to n-,alie such a con-
iition than you had to insist that a man should first pay
his half-year's rent.
Mr. STAFFORD reminded the Hon. Member that
by swelling the Ministerial majority with his vote on
this measure he would defeat his own object, inasmuch
as the question put would be, not whether the franchise
should be 15/. but whether it should be 81.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, the question re-
solved itself into this—what should be the num-
ber of electors in Ireland? and in reference to
this view he submitted to the Committee that an
81. franchise would not render that number excessive.
Taking the counties and boroughs,be believed the who'e
number would be found to be under 300,000, and if they
compared that with the number in England and Wales,
it would be found, that while the proportion there was
about one in five, it would be one in six wad a half or
seven. Such being the case he saw no reason for holding
the number to be excessive. It had been taid that 8/. a
year represented a beneficial interest of half thst amoun
—namely, 4/. a year; but compare that with the feec•
hold franchise in England, which was only 21,—(Hear.;
There was certainly the diference f tenure—(lronical
cheers)—but still it was admitted nat the property re-
prennted by these was opf to as much ai 40s. There-
fore, the proposal being that them should be rather a
less number in proportion in Ireland than in England
and Wales, there was no reason for saying the
franchise was too low. BA then came the question
upon which there had been very little argument—
namely, why they should give the franchise to persons
who were mere occupiers, and why they should not join
that occupation with tenure, as had hitherto been the
case in England ? In order to arrive at the conclusion
that they ought not any longer to insist on such a tenure
in Ireland, it was sufficient to look back to what had
been the course of proceeding in Parliament with re-
spect to the franchise by tenure in Ireland. In 1793 a
40s. franchise as enjoyed in England was given by the
Irish Parliament. The consequence was that there
were in soma counties thousand of manufsctured votes,
and persons having no property 'whatever were driven
up to the poll, as given in evidence on oath before Com-
mittees of the other House by the agents of landlords ;
in fact, firming the greatest caricivure and most sad
abuse of the representative system that could very well
be imagired. He remembered hearing a story of a per-
son driving through a wretched village in company of
the proprietor. " How can you," said be, " keep such
wretched hovels on your o,tatg ?" To which he re-
plied, "It is well worth my while to have there wretched
hovels on my estate, for it was mainly through them
that I was enabled to make my brother a Member."—
Meer, hear, and laughter.) Such was the system under
the 40s. franchise. In 1829 the Right Honourable
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, in proposing the
Catholic Emancipation Bill, declared his plan, which
was supported by large majorities, of disfranchising the
40s. freeholders, and they had a ' new franchise estab.
lished--namely, a 101. franchise; and that was subse.
qusntly amended and altered by the Irish Reform Ac
_ _

introdUced by Lord Stanley. llut so far from I °ling
rid of the abuse, they had under that franchise cases of
perjury, fictitious votes, and lire interests given t 3 men
of 70 or 75 years of age, fir the purpose of voting at the
coming election, and abuses so grievous that everybody
agreed that such a system should not continue. The
party with whom be was connected attemp'ei some
mode of amendment, Lord Stanley proposed another, and
Lord Howick, again, a third. But there were several
Members of that House—amongst others, be believed,
the Hon. Member for Cavan—who said they would never
put an end to such scenes of perjury, and the creation of
fictitious votes, until they placed the right of voting on
occupation and rating, and not on tenure. When Lord
l3esborough went to Ireland he was Particularly di-
rected to report on that subject, and to give his opinion
to the Government. He gave his opinion very deci-
dedly, that as long as you kept up any right of voting
by tenure so long would' you have scenes of fraud which
it would be quite impossible to counteract, and he pro-
posed that whatever the amount might be, the franchise
should be founded on rating and occupation. so as to
make the register little more than a copy of the rate-
book. Such was the plan that they had adopted upon
Lord Besborough's recommendation. The different:Bills
introduced were founded on that plan, and the question
now was, •whether, having adopted that plan, the pro-
per amount of qualification had been fixed. He did not
think they would give satisfaction in Ireland if they were
to fix in that country a much higher value of property
as a qualification for the franchise than in England, or
declare their opinion that such was the character of the
Irish people that they were not to be trusted with the
same privileges as the people of England. He should
wish, therefore, that if they did not grant the 404. fran-
chise to Ireland—if they saw that the 40s. franchise led
to fraud—in that case he should wish that there should
be given some equivalent qualification, which would give
that country a sufficient number of voters. He did not
think that the number the Government proposed was at
all excessive, and he trusted, therefore, the Committee
would not agree to the amendment.

Mr. GOULBURN was anxious to state why he ob-
jected to filling up the blank with the number proposed
by the Government. He was a party to the arrangement
for the abolition of the 40s. freeholders, on the ground
that they were not an independent class—that they were
merely an instrument in the hands of one party or ano-
ther in Ireland, rather than exercising any opinion of
their own. Having been a party to that arrangement,
he fzlt that there was a great delicacy and difficulty in
reducing the franchise now so low as to give rise to si-
milar practices in Ireland. lie felt' strongly the condi-
tion of those to whom they now proposed to give the
franchise; at the same time he had no wish whatever to
make any reduction in the number of electors. On the
other hand, there were causes beyond the mere numerical
amount of the electors that influenced his mind, and
these must be looked t ) in the peculiar condition of Ire-
land. They had first to consider how they were to cre-
ate a constituency that had that degree of interest in the
soil that would enable them to act independently of all
parties. Above all, they must consider what would
be the effect upon the social condition of the
so large an alteration in the
Ile apprehended, in the first
country
amount
place, that by giving 8/. as the proper amount of the
franchise, they would
fin the making
franchise.
necessarily give a preponderating
influence to the occupiers of those towns that did not
send representatives to Parliament, and they would find
that the majority of these 8/. freeholders would be inha-
bitants of those towns who, although they did not send
representatives to Parliament, were possessed of a con-
.

siderable population and property. They must remember
that with the increase or property and manufalturing
industry there was a constant tendency in these towns