The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, JULY 26, 1644.

pone the consideration of the relative rights of share-
holders among themselves until next session. In certain
respects the Bill would improve the relations between
companies and their shareholders, but it would not
remedy the evil of which the Hon. Gentleman com-
plained. There would be facilities of obtaining judg-
ments against companies, and this he thought would
prove very beneficial.
Mr. S. WORTLEY had thought it his duty to call
the Right Hon. Gentleman's attention to this subject,
and he trusted that some steps would be taken with
respect to it next year.
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 26 to 57.
The Usher of the Black Rod appeared at the bar, and
summoned the House to the bar of the House of Lords,
to hear the Royal Assent given by Commission to seve-
ral Bills (for which see Lords' report).
The SPEAKER, accompanied by several Members, then
proceeded to the House of Lords.
On their return, the House went into Committee,
when the remaining clauses were agreed to, and the Bill,
with amendments, was ordered to be reported on Tues-
day next at twelve o'clock.
The House resumed.

Museum, there was no library that could be called a
national library. In Paris there were no less than five
public libraries which were open to every class of society
from the highest to the lowest, and to the subject of
every country. There were four other libraries that
were admissible to the public among which were the
magazine library and the library of the arsenal,
In Russia there were also libraries, all of which were
opened to the public. In Saxony there were also
public libraries, several of which were in Dresden :
and even in Turkey itself, showing that that country
was before England in that respect.—(Hear, hear.)
Even the British Museum was mot open to the poor man
and the citizen, as were the libraries of Paris, for it was
necessary to procure an introduction, in order to be
admitted into it. He thought that the two propositions
which he made were reasonable, and he believed they
would be finally assented to. He firmly believed that, if
her Majesty's Government took the matter into their
serious consideration, they would not only do a great
deal of good, but would obtain a great deal of public
panegyric.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord HOWICK said he concurred in much of what
had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman. He believed that
much remained to be done in the way of provid-
ing the means of education for the people of this country,
because as their population increased in density the
facilities of misleading them also increased. It seemed
to him to be a source of considerable danger, that great
masses of the population were growing up without
any due means of instruction or information.—(Hear,
hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman, that it
was not desirable that education should be made a Go-
vernment measure. There was not in this country suf-
ficient of mutual toleration among the religious bodies
into which the population was divided to ren-
der it possible that anything like a system of
education being formed with advantage, and in this he
thought the Dissenters were as much to blame as the
Church, and the Church as much as the Dissenters.
He thought the Government judged wisely, after the
failure of last year, in not renewing a similar
experiment again. But he thought they had experience
enough to prove that the Government could do a great
deal to stimulate education without even a Legislative
enactment. What they should aim at was to create a
desire for education amongst the people, and to enable
parents to distinguish good schools from bad schools.
What he should suggest was, that there should be
a partial examination of the children of different
schools by examiners, to be appointed by
the Government, who would give certificates to those
who answered best. Though there might be some
difficulty at first in getting the children to attend,
he thought that a great change, would very soon take
place in that respect, when they perceived what great
advantage was derived from the possession of certificates.
They all 'knew how earnestly the inferior situations of
the lower departments of the public service were coveted
by persons in the lower ranks of life ; and if a
small number of situations, such as those of tide-waiters
or_ excisemen, were made the prizes for proficiency
at the public examination, it would be very beneficial.
This, he was convinced, would make these examinations
very successful. By a small sacrifice of patronage on the
part of the Government an immense advantage might be
obtained. He could not but think that a small portion
of. the Government grant for education would be well
applied in giving rewards to those schoolmasters who
-proved themselves worthy of them. He believed that
a comparatively small sum thus applied would
go further than anything else to raise the general
standard of the qualification of public schoolmasters.
He believed this to be a most important subject, and one
well worthy 'the attention of the Government.
A short pause here ensued, and no one rising to ad-
dress the House,
The SPEAKER proceeded to the next order on the
paper, which related to
THE STATE TRIALS.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that as the opinion of the
Judges had not yet been delivered respecting the trial of
Mr.• O'Connell and others, he would postpone until
another supply day the question for an address to her
Majesty, praying her Majesty to release the prisoners.
Mr. WYSE then addressed the House, and hoped that
the Government would not let the observations of his
Noble Friend pass without expressing what their feel-
ings were on this important subject.
Sir R. PEEL said he did not think the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman contemplated the appointment of a
separate Minister to preside over the department of
public education. There would be difficulties in the
way of such an appointment, but the object might be ef-
fected by the constitution of a department from the
office that presided over the internal department of the
country. At the same time the duty at present devolved
on a part of the Government which paid great atten-
tion to the. subject ; and he believed as much was ef-
fected by the Committee of the Privy Council. He
held in his hand the report of this body for the year
1843, and he recommended Hon. Members to make
themselves acquainted with its contents. He thought
they were too much in the habit of making motions for
the production of reports on different subjects while they
did not make use of all the information already in their
possession. This report contained a mass of most mi-
nute information, and before fresh particulars were
pressed for he would recommend Hon. Members to make
themselves acquainted with what was before them al-
ready. The work had been thrown into a form more
tempting than a blue book.—(Laughter.) He hoped
before they proceeded.to make any new appointments or
give new salaries, they would afford a fair trial to the
present superintending body. There was an annual vote
from the House applied to the purposes of education,
and, according to the demands of the country, the Go-
vernment would call for an increase of that vote, perfectly
certain that the House would respond to that just de-
mand. In one point he fully concurred with the Noble
Lord.. He believed that if some of the subordinate
patronage of the Government were applied as a reward
to young persons of merit, educated in schools at the
public expense, he was certain that the loss to a Go-
vernment would be amply compensated. It was
the duty of all Governments to strengthen the
foundations on which good governments must rest,
and nothing could more conduce to this effect than the
applying a portion of the subordinate patronage of the Go-
vernment in the manner he had stated. There might be
some difficuly in the way of appointing young persons
immediately to situations in the revenue, on account of
the early age at which they quitted the schools, but if
it were possible to' effect it, the application of this por-
tion of the patronage of the Government would be
adiantageeus and beneficial. There was great jealousy
'among the people sgainit Government interference with
education. It denoted great independence of spirit. Let
them not blame it too hastily—it, had its advantages as
well as disadvantages, though still it was an obstruction
in the way of a sound and uniform system of education.
He could assure the House than any suggestion on this
subject would receive the consideration of Government.
Lord HOWICK said he was perfectly satisfied with
the suggestions thrown out by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He hoped he'would consider also the advantage of ap-
pointing impartial examiners from among the public for
the schools, whether this patronage in .the shape of m-
e and were given or not.
Mr. EWART said, he bad referred to the establish-
ment of. libraries. .
Sir ROBERT PEEL could not conceive anything
more binding on the rich manufacturers in the different
districts,. than assisting in the establishment of libraries
for the' working classes. Where there were wealthy
manufacturers, 'who had derived thousands and tens of
thousand's from the labour of the working classes, he
e )uld not imagine a more becoming return than esta-
blishing inititutions of this kind. He believed in many
parts of the country this was the case.
Mr.*EWAßT—There was not one town in England
where there wasn library open to'the public as they were
'abroad: - : •
Sir:R.-PEEL thought the Hon. "Gentlemen, hardly did
justice to, the manufacturers of the country. The ex-
pense was so small, and the effect on the connection be-
tween rich and poor so beneficial, that he should be
sorry to see the Government•stepping in to relieve pri-
vate exertions from that which had been attended with
so good an effect. The interference of the Government
would tend to check t4iit exertion.
Mr. EWART explained, amid cries of" Question."
Sir R. PEEL—I 'know the Hon. Member mentioned
schools of design, but surely he said libraries also.
The subject then dropped.
CASE OF MR. ROLLS.
Mr. FITZMAU.RICE then rose to draw the attention
of the House to the case of Mr. Joseph Henry Rolls.
This gentleman had been for fifteen years a landing-
waiter in the service of the Customs, and had borne a
most irreproachable character. In the. year 1840, Mr.
Rolls had overtures made to him by an individual to de-
f-and the Government. He reported thoseovertures to
the Surveyor-General, and made' a memorandum of
them at the time, and put it in his desk. Mr. Rolls had
stated before the Commissioners of Revenue Inquiry
that the, frauds Would not have been committed it the
lauding-waiters had had freer access to the board. From
1840 to 1842,- no case of suspicion had occurred, and in
that:year Mr. Rolls had been suspended and dis-
charged. The wording of the charge against Mr. Rolls
differed froth the wording, of the other charges: The
other officers were Charged with having concealed the
overtures made to them from the board, and from their
superior officers. The words "superior officers" were
'omitted in the charge against 'Mr. Rolls. He appeared
before Mr, Dawson, made his defence, and stated that he'
had reported the overtures to his superior officers. The
Commissioners reported that the communication which
Mr. Rolls had made ought to have been sufficient to have
eroased,the suspicions of his ,superior officer. Mr. Rolls,.
however, was dismissed, but the:: Commissioners of
Revenue Inquiry recommended that 'he should be
reinstated ; yet, in May last, the Lords of the Treasury
had confirmed his dismissal. He should like to know by
whom Mr. Rolls was dismissed ; why by those who
never heard a single word of the evidence against him.
his
suleasd ser
If Mr. persons,r Rollshe was' guilty, let him be sent' to would ask, be proper judges of
Newgate ; but if he was innocent, let him be placed
is the situation he was in., before;:' If be was unfit
for one situation, surely be was unfit for all, and if such
case,
en would the inn
concludeocence o
by m
was the
ease,
why
was hi„alary kept up.? He firmly be-
lieved fMr.,;Ryiong that the petition of
lis ; and such being the
a
Mr. 'Rolla should be referred to a Select Committee, who
were to report thereon, with the evidence, to the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that, from the number of orders and notices on the paper,
he did not anticipate the motion of the Hon. Member
would have come on for discussion. The papers
.on the
subject had been ordered, but were not yet on the table
of.the House. He regretted this the more, because they
*paid have represented more clearly the situation of
ttle"'lluestion than the Honourable Member had done.
There were circumstances in which this gentleman
might have formed erroneous opinions, but he was
alWayS inclined 'to put 'a lenient construction on his acts.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then detailed the circum-
stances which led to the suspension of Mr. Rolls. When
he first communicated to the chairman of the Board of

Custom; what had been told him concerning Mr.

Rolls, that gentleman wrote back, saying he would as
soon suspect him as he would his own brother. The
report of the Board of Customs distinctly stated that
that degree of confidence could not be reposed in Mr.
Rolls which had justified his being restored to the
situation which he filled. But his salary was paid up
to the period at which the communication was made,
and another situation was offered to him, but of a dif-
ferent character from that which he previously filled.
The course pursued was that which was strictly con-
sistent with the public interest, and with the verdict of
the Board of Revenue. He had done all he could to
make the removal of Mr. Rolls easy, both with respect
to his feelings, and in a pecuniary point of view. All
he could say was, that he regretted that his Hon. Friend
should use any expression derogatory to the character of
the Chairman of the Board of Customs, as he acted in
the way which most men acquainted with the facts would
have done, and which was for the advantage of the public
welfare.

Mr. DUNCOMBE did not think justice had been done
to the character of Mr. Rolls by the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. Mr. Rolls had acted throughout with in-
dependent and manly integrity ; he had communicated
the offer to bribe him to the Surveyor-General,
but that officer had not, as he should have done, com-
municated it to the board until the frauds were dis-
covered, twelve months after. He had been informed
that favouritism was going on to a most disgraceful ex-
tent, and that young and inexperienced officers were
I placed over the heads of most experienced, efficient men,
who had been for years in her Majesty's service. He
thought a strong case for inquiry had been made out, and
he hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would divide
the House upon his motion.
Sir R. PEEL thought it was unwise in the House to
attempt to control the Board of Customs in their
patronage. He thought it had not been shown that the
Board of Customs had acted in an improper manner in
the case which had just been brought under the conside-
ration of the House. He held in his hand a statement,
which had been signed by six members of the Board of
Customs, containing grounds why this Mr. Rolls should
not be reinstated in his situation. It appeared from the
report which had been made by the Committee which had
been appointed to investigate the Custom -house frauds,
that Mr. Candy, a person who had been engaged in
smuggling transactions, had made a proposal to Mr.
Rolls, for the purpose of defrauding the Customs. This
proposal, it was true, Mr. Rolls had rejected, but he had
failed to inform the Board of Customs of the circuin
stances. Although there was no imputation on the cha-
racter of Mr. Rolls, yet circumstances had occurred
which rendered it unadvisable to reinstate him in his
situation. Under these circumstances, he (Sir R. Peel)
hoped the House would not entertain the motion of the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman.
Mr. HAWES trusted that what had passed in that
House would not affect Mr. Rolls in any other appoint-
ment for which he might apply.
Lord G. LENNOX defended the character of
Rolls, and said that, in his opinion, the Commissioners
of Customs had not sufficiently considered his case. He
believed that Mr. Rolls had been withdrawn from his
situation by the Board of Customs upon insufficient
evidence.
Mr. F. T. BARING regretted that allusion had been
made to the appointments in the Custom-house. lie
thought it was much better to leave such matters to the
consideration of the Board of Customs, as they were the
only responsible parties.
Captain FITZMAURICE, in withdrawing his mo-
tion, explained that he should have moved for these
papers three months ago, had he not understood it was
the intention to re-consider the case of Mr. Rolls, with
a view to his restoration to office.
The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
INCENDIARY FIRES.

Mr. M. GIBSON said he rose, according to the no-
tice he bad given, to call the attention of the House to
the incendiarism now prevalent in the counties of Nor-
folk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridge. He was aware
that the fires were happily not so extensive now
as they had been a short time ago, but this brief
interval of reason furnished no reason whatever
for not inquiring into the condition of the population,
which appeared to have given rise to this most awful and
wicked crime. The extent of the crime, it could not be
doubted, had been very great during the last six or
eight months, and he was speaking within the mark
when he said that considerably more than one hundred
fires had occurred during that period in Suffolk alone,
and perhaps upwards of two hundred in the adjoining
counties to the county of Suffolk. He had been in-
formed at an office which insured upwards of four mil-
lions of agricultural property, that their losses by these
incendiary fires alone exceeded all their other losses put
together; so that if the practice of incendiarism were to
continue it was clear it would be necessary for the
offices greatly to increase their rates of insurance
for agricultural property, or, not doing this,
they would be obliged to leave off insuring it at all.
They had lately seen such a general display of malig-
nant feeling, and such a total disregard of the rights of
property, that it was become an absolute duty for the
Government to probe the matter to the bottom. Now,
a variety of causes had been assigned for the discontent
from which it had been alleged that this horrible prac-
tice of incendiarism had originated. The motion he
(Mr. Gibson) intended to propose was in effect in the
nature of an address to the Crown, calling on the Go-
vernment "to send down into these counties a Commis-
sion of trustworthy, discreet, and confidential men, who
can be depended on, for the purpose of inquiring into
the general condition of the agricultural labourers in
those counties, and fer the purpose of ascertaining
what are the grievances under which they are
supposed to suffer." He (Mr. Gibson) mentioned some
days ago to the House that he thought it desirable that
a commission should be sent down into the Eastern
Counties for the purpose he had mentioned, but the
Right Hon. Secretary (Sir James Graham) did not at
that time accord with his opinion, and, in fact, stated
that he could not agree to the proposition without
further consideration. He (Mr. Gibson) now trusted
that the further consideration which the Right Hon.
Baronet had been enabled to give to the subject would
induce him to send down discreet persons to make in-
quiries upon this subject. He did not suggest that this
inquiry should be made through the instrumentality of
the Poor-law Commissioners, not but what he had the
greatest confidence in those gentlemen; but there was a
certain feeling abroad as to the poor-law itself, that he
should fear any report made by them upon the subject,
would not be satisfactory to the public, who would
rather believe that a case was attempted to be made out
for the good working of the poor-law rather thin a
searching inquiry into the actual condition of the
agricultural labourers. When he mentioned this subject
on a former occasion, the Right Hon. Gentleman had
suggested that it should rest for a time, as there were
trials about to take place for this very crime of in-
cendiarism, and it would be wise to await the results of
them. But he (Mr. Gibson) called on the Right Hon.
Gentleman to take a statesman's view of this matter
rather than that of a police-officer or a mere adminis-
trator of the law. He called upon him not to take a
chief officer's view of such matters, but one becoming
a high and resposible adviser of the Crown. What was
wanted was this, that the Government should go
thoroughly into the depths of the case—that they should
probe the existing cause of this crime with a view, if
possible, of guarding against it for the future. It might,
perhaps, be too much to assume that want and misery
were the exciting causes of this crime, when many of
those now in charge could not plead this as an ex-
cuse for their hatred of property ; but nothing was so
well known as that where considerable discontent and
murmuring prevail, there will be found individuals at all
times ready to work out the greatest crimes, though they
were not themselves the sufferers from the evils which
prevailed. And he (Mr. Gibson) could say from an
authority, that both in that House and out of it, would
alike command respect—he meant Sir Henry Banbury—
that this crime of incendiarism IN as but the symptom of
the dangerous and deep discontent which prevailed
amongst the labouring population.—(Hear, hear.) That
high authority used these very words :--" I must avow
my conviction that these incendiary fires are the symp-
toms of a smouldering and dangerous discontent amongst
the rural population."—(Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr.
Gibson) thought he had a right to call on the Govern-
ment to send down discreet and proper persons to in-
stitute an inquiry into the allegations which had been
made; and lie had a double right to do this, when he
recollected the statements which had been made on a
former occasion by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite,
of the necessity of maintaining the comfort and well-
being of the rural population, and in accomplishing
this, even to consent to sacrifice in a great
degree the trading and commercial interests
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Honourable Gentle-
men opposite had contended, on a well-known occasion,
that they must maintain their loved and lauded scenes
of rural felicity, which the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir J.
Graham) had declared would at oncecease if the corn-laws
were repealed. Reverting, however, to the poor-law,
which many asserted to be the cause of those incendiary
fires, he (Mr. Gibson) wished to know if they had not
these fires when the allowance system was at its height
under the old poor-law?—(Hear, hear,) He wanted to
know how it was that, under the old poor-law, incen-
diarism existed to as great an extent as it did now under
the new poor-law ?—(Hear, hear.) From this he had
a right to conclude, that if the disease were not alto-
gether of a chronic nature, there was something besides
the mode of relief which prompted those most wicked
crimes.—(Hear, hear.) Without going, however, into
the question of the operation of the poor-law, he (Mr.
Gibson) could not help feeling, that there might be some
truth in the assertion that the labouring classes were
prejudiced against that law ; but he could not bring
himself to think it was the main cause of the aleination
between the peasantry and the owners and occupiers of
land. He said then, as be had said before _in tind out
of that House, that there was no class of men
in this country more disposed to be indus-
trious—more disposed to be orderly—more wil-
ling to bear up manfully against distresses and
gt
or cu 1 uf ahl
el awbaonutreedrst
oo fptihc
ke do
out
stt r
ei ext.!
ahpmeriwpvalaetssiononfoswgthoaaolndlutdchoine agricultural
he should go to the labourers
of the eastern counties ; and he could not but feel that
the discontent must be of a very deep and serious nature,
to induce men of such good natural dispositions to the
perpetration of so awful a crime as that of incendiarism;
and here he must say that he could not but regret the
conduct of an Hon. Gentleman opposite, one of the
Members for Norfolk (Mr. Wodehouse), who, on a
former occasion overlooking altogether the effect
which want and despair have on men's moral percep-
tions—hadassumed that nothing beneficial could be done
towards the suppression of crime, save through the in-
strumentality of the gibbet, and had found fault with

the very proper exercise of the mercy of the Crown,
which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham)
had authorised in the case of the two youths found guilty
at' one-of the recent assizes for the county of Norfolk.
He did not mean to say that the Honourable Gentleman
had made such a remark ai he had mentioned, but those
who had heard this question would have thought that he
questioned the course of the Right Hon. Baronet in re-

commending mercy in the case of the two persons to
whom he had alluded. He (Mr. M. Gibson) was glad
that the Right Hon. Baronet had adopted such a course,
because be was convinced the crime was increased by
severe penalties. He thought the Hon. Gentleman,
before he questioned the prerogative of mercy, ought to
have inquired within himself how many of the crimes
for which men were convicted the State was responsible_
for, in consequence of bad legislation. No step was taken
to remove squalid want and distress, and the result was,
that a strong feeling existed among the labouring classes
that they were neglected, and that it,l the legislation of that
House was for the benefit of the higher and of the middle
classes. There was a feeling among the lower classes
that the Legislature did riot care for them, and the
clergy of the Church had contributed to spread that
feeling. What had the Rev. Godolphin Osborne told
the Duke of Richmond ? Why, he stated this to him,
that if the Legislature would only give the labourers' half
the attention that was given to the landlords condition, they
would arrive at the conclusion which he bad arrived at,
that there was not a single animal used on their farms
that suffered so much neglect as the labourer.
Was it, therefore, to be wondered at, that a feeling of
discontent had greatly increased? It had been said that
crime arose in the manufacturing districts from want of
pastoral care, Why, these counties to which he had al-
luded were counties of churches and clergymen.—
(Hear, hear.) There was plenty of pastoral care there.
But more was wanted than that. Mr. Osborne stated
further, that neither the law nor the Gospel could pre-
vail when men were deprived of the bread which they
ought to have, and were treated worse than brutes. He
(Mr. M. Gibson) did not think any increase of the
churches or of clergymen, or the keeping up the price
of corn, would conciliate the labouring classes with the
owners of the land, or would ward off those evils which
would assuredly come some day. When the limited sur-
face of this island, and its increased population, was
considered, he had to charge gentlemen opposite with
being themselves the means of strengthening the preju-
dices against them among the labouring classes. One
reason given for incendiarism was the dislike the la-
bourer had to machinery. He saw that machinery was
taking his labour out of his hands; and what had been
the course • adopted by the landlords on that subject?
Why, even at public meetings on the corn-law question,
when they chose to revile the manufacturer, they en-
tered into tirades against the use of machinery in manu-
factories. The labourers, hearing them using these
arguments, and finding that machinery was used by the
tenants of the landlords greatly to their detriment,
they were led to the conclusion that machinery was
equally bad to them as it was for the la-
bourers in manufactories. The landlords had fomented
these feelings for party purposes, to raise a prejudice
against the manufacturers, and now it had recoiled
against themselves they would come forward to advocate
the use of it. With respect to wages, the same attempt
had been made to delude the poor labourers. They had
been told that the farmers could afford to give them
better wages if they chose. Now that he (Mr. M. Gibson)
denied to be the case. Farmers, generally speaking,
could hardly afford to give the wages they did. The
landowners stated that the farmers were screwing the
labourers down, and that was the cause of the incendiary
fires that had taken place. He believed that the control
of wages was entirely out of the farmers' power;—whilst
the rent of the landlord increased the money would go
into landlords' pockets, derived, as it was, from the sweat
of the brow of the labourer. The expectations that had
been held out by the promise of protection had induced
the farmers to give higher rent than they otherwise would
have done, and to join in so hazardous an enterprise.
He was happy, however, to see that the farmers were
beginning to open their eyes. He had been lately into
the country, where he had no doubt the Right Hon.
Baronet would be glad to be at the present moment,
and it was his opinion that the farmers began to think
that the Right Honourable Baronet's protection was
equivocal, and he (M. M. Gibson) wished to en-
courage such a feeling. Such he believed to be
the feelings of the present time, and he had no doubt
that these feelings would tend to good. The less con-
fidence the farmers had in protection, the more likely
were they to conduct their business in a profitable man-
ner. The agricultural labourers were deeply interested
in the prosperity of the farmers, and the prosperity of
the farmers would be best consulted by not depending
on that House, but on their own exertions. He-trusted
that he should be met fairly on this subject by the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite. Inquiries had been made by
Committees into the state of the Aborigines, the
Africans, and even the Esquimaux, but no inquiries had
been made into the condition of the agricultural
labourer. Some gentlemen got up in that House and
stated that there was no distress, while others of high
authority had stated that there was deep distress. They
had magistrates stating that the working classes looked
on with a sort of satisfaction at the terrible destruction
of their neighbours' stacks and farms. Mr. Bevan; the-
chairman of the quarter-sessions, stated that the
people at Middleham Hall did all they could
to promote the fire, and another person at Hitchara
had made a similar statement. The motion
with which he intended to conclude he had put into
writing, but he did not wish to confine the Right Hon.
Baronet to the words he had there used. If he would
only send down some gentlemen to inquire into the
subject, who were unconnected with the Poor-law Com-
missioners, or who did not hold any situation that would
give them a biased character--if he would do that, he
( Mr. M. Gibson) would agree:to any proposition that would
have the effect of carrying out the object he had in view.
He would conclude by moving that a humble address to
her Majesty, representing to her Majesty that there was
reason to believe that the incendiarism now prevalent in
the counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, and Cambridge,
arose from distress, and praying her Majesty to issue a
Commission to ascertain what was the cause of that
distress. It might be said that this was a partial motion,
because it was confined to certain counties. With respect
to that, he would only say that, if,'after this inquiry was
terminated, it was thought desirable to extend it to all
the rural districts of the country, he could have no
objection to it ; indeed, he thought it would be most wise
to do so. He thought there had been great neglect with
respect to the condition of the working classes, and he
believed, if they put off this inquiry much longer, they
would rue the delay.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, after the speech that had
just been' delivered by the Hon. Gentleman, the House
would see that it was his duty to offer some observations.
During the time of the delivery of that speech it oc-
curred to his mind to ask himself what the object of the
Honourable Gentleman could be in delivering the senti-
ments he had done, and he had come to the conclusion
that only a deep sense of duty to the public had induced
him to make the speech he had done. He had heard
with great satisfaction what, if the Hon. Member had
not stated, he should have felt it his duty to have com-
municated to the House, that this crime, though so
disgraceful, and having such a tendency to spread, being
of a contagious nature, was diminishing. Cer-
tainly it was an extraordinary period to make that ad-
mission, and, knowing that fact, that he should have
felt it his duty to have addressed to the House
speech he had just made. The Hon. Member had told
him not to take a chief constable's view of this matter ;
he was bound to say, whether the Hon. Member con-
sidered it a chief constable's duty or not, he thought a
discussion of this kind forced upon the attention of Par-
liament, had a direct tendency to increase the crime.—
(Hear, hear.) There was such a thing as fanning the
smouldering flame, and it was quite possible that a dis-
cussion such as the. Hon. Member had introduced that
night would cast fuel upon the flames which were almost
extinguished.—(Hear, hear.) What good, let him ask,
could arise from the various topics the Hon. Member
had introduced ? Why, what had been the occupation
of that House for the last four or five weeks ? Late and
early, morning and evening, they had been
discussing, with the most intense desire to promote
the interests and add to the comforts of the
labouring classes, the amendment of that law which
provided for their relief; and the Hon, Gentleman ad-
mitted himself that while they were so employed, he
thought that great advocate of the rights and comforts of
the poor—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches)—
had been seeking elsewhere that gratification which, if'
they had consulted merely their own pleasure,
they should have sought with him.—(Hear, hear.)
He had been absent consulting that enjoyment,
while they had been devoting much pains and earnest
attention to devising some means by which the misfor-
tunes of their poorer fellow-subjects might be alleviated.
What was the meaning of the comparison the Hon. Member
drew between the poor of this country and the inquiries
which had been instituted into the state of the Abori-
gines of various parts of the world—the Hottentots and
Esquimaux on which he founded an analogy for the pre-
sent inquiry ? What was the meaning of the allusion
he made to the coldheartedness and selfishness of 'the
landed proprietors?
Mr. GIBSON-4 quoted the words of a clergyman.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM had a great respect for the
clergymen of this country, but among that
body there might be indiscreet individuals ; there
was such a thing—he did not say he admired
the character—as a popularity-hunting parson as well as
an agitating Member of Parliament.—(Cheers.) The
Hon. Member had quoted from the letter of a clergy-
man; but, at a time when anything like excitement re-
mained, was it likely to add to the peace or order of the
country, which it was the doctrine of the religion of
which that gentleman was the minister to diffuse
among all classes? But the Hon. Gentleman would
permit him to tell him, that there was no need for a
Committee of Inquiry into the condition of the labouring
classes of that district. He (Sir J. Graham) had stated
on a former occasion that the assizes now in progress
would not fail to throw a distinct light on the crime to
whieh he had adverted, 'He had had communi-
cations from the Judges who were now em-
ployed in trying the criminals in that district. He had
great satisfaction in stating that there was no difficulty
in administering the law throughout that district. There
was great willingness to disclose the truth I there was
great Impartiality on the part of juries, and great dis-
crimination in their verdicts. The guilty were convicted,
and where there was fair cause to doubt the proof's ad-
duced, the innocent bad had the benefit of that doubt ;
and he was told, upon the highest authority, that there
was no symptom whatever of a diseased state of society
throughout that county, and, generally speaking, the
crimes that had been committed there had been traced
to personal enmity, or had been committed by very
young offenders. He believed he stated the fact—and
there were gentlemen present who were better acquainted
with it than himself—when he said that, at Chelmsford,
several children had been committed for trial on charges
of incendiarism, of the ages of 8,9, and 12 years. He
had also heard from Huntingdon, that two children, one
aged 9, and the other 11, had been convicted of this
Crime. He had received a suggestion, to which he was
disposed to pay attention, that he should insert in the
Bill which had gone up from this House; in reference to
the crime which the-Hon. Gentleman had felt it his duty
to bring under their, conicreration, a clause inflicting the
punishment of whipping in reference to this offence, when
committed by juvenile offenders. The House, in re-
ference to another offence, to which he would not more

particularly refer where notoriety was sought bjflijudgeeti
nile offenders, did add that penalty to the other.,, the!
by the law. It had been suggested to him Ws' tat,
..ate “.
should follow this example. He was bound to gas ,to
as far
rd`ced
with regard to these juvenile offenders,
could discover, it was bad example that bad P_.°,,„roof
that effect • but he would repeat that there was. ovierog
whatever of a generally diseased state of societYGotle
the labouring classes in the district the J-10n.„00aie
man had alluded to. If he could believe that a tisitste to
tee of Inquiry was necessary, he would not he,,e aloe
appoint one, but at the present moment, with la boa
decreasing, the law being carried into execution,
difficulty, those who perpetrated the crime bet" of
mitted for trial, and being about to be tried, It dot
under such circumstances that he thought it lope
to advise the Crown to depart from the usuaget
of administering the law, or to appoint a Cewt to tbe
for investigating the circamstarepes. With respect toile
other topics the Hon. Gentleman had thought fitsot
troduce. it would be enough for him to say Oath* 0.
think either the language the Hon. Gentleman tiger
dressed to the House, or the train of argument!„urse °f
ment it could be called, which was rather a heloce
invective, eas likely, on the present occasion,
L"h'igi iD
any large portion of the House to concur with that
that
the motion he had made. He was quite satis
biota
neither the speech of the Hon. Gentleman, ncl„ffet of
tion, if it could be carried, would have the lesirus
diminishing the evils which he declared he was ustit6d,
of alleviating, On the contrary, he was quite 6_ woe
though it did not become him to impute inotive:tio• is
Hon. Gentleman, that he had acted with indiscri•kel9l°
the course he had taken—one which was more I,,joed.
produce than to prevent the evils of which he colt; or
On these grounds he should offer his most demo'
position to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman• er sr
Mr. WODEHOUSE said there would be nw,s,
tobJe
portunities of replying to the speech of the Ileni,vioal
Gentleman, of which he should not fail to avail 'OO
He should only address himself, at present, W tshic
servations the Hon. Gentleman made with respect tiodr
self. The Hon. Member had stated that be (311.'rerogs,
house) had arraigned the exercise of the royal P oftle
tive of mercy. He was standing in the presenee,ooo.
House, and he distinctly denied any such in ;) per
The case alluded to was of a peculiar nature. .I.d sea
sons were tried for incendiarism, found
guilty, s'
tented to fifteen years' transportation. A fesvotterli
afterwards they received a free pardon. It I°s cake'
impossible to deny that that was a circumstance eetkesti
lated to create surprise. But when the Hon. Gel 4d
said that he was an advocate for the dungeon, Ile„,
leave to tell him that the more he inquired into tb"-r
eeki
ject the more he would find that these fires . thethe effect of the ill-usage—the impression vlis Olt
Hon. Member intended to convey. As far as b 1 thtle,
county was concerned, there was an instance vn
fires being caused by a child between 11 and ltede
old. There was no doubt of his guilt, but solnel, filet
was such a favourite with his master and mist° Thre iftt
e they could get no conviction against him. •of
another case in Leicestershire of a fire caused by;
oftte
and dumb man, who had previously been convieted tos
?,,,g
crime of cutting the throat of a donkey belent-ls is!
neighbour. Of his guilt there was no doubt ;„ Na
morial was presented to the Secretary of btogel7,
favour, and a poor woman who had given eviclet",, ter
him was burned in effigy. It had been proved ti.sbioo/
fires had been caused in the county of Sussex. 000
man who was not at all connected with the ablot t 12,1
of that county, being a cooper. He believed t dora
discontent that prevailed among the working„ wit
might be materially attributed to the nonse,ll"-ffioe:',;
the Hon. Gentleman and others had inolls.lo`
Witt bti.
circulated among them with respect to wages. a, 0,
Bard to the assertion the Hon. Member had tne-ess"
having arraigned the prerogative of mercy, there otor
foundation for the assertion, and he gave it his 133
qualified contradiction. bstl red
Mr. DARBY alluded to the quotation that eal
made from the letter of the Rev. Mr. Osborne,,,,;ollr,
fended the Duke of Richmond from the charge nerelA'
letter made upon him, of being careless of the lii•o""
of the poor labourers. He could speak froalbej
knowledge that no man was more studious of tdo,
terests than the Noble Duke. He strongly e°,;13,110,4
the course the Hon. Member had taken of (-47lte"'
such a discussion, as it might tend to increase
mission of the crime. g be if
Mr. BRIGHT said he had noticed ever since de 0
had the honour of holding a seat in that House, -0,00110
since he had been in the habit of reading the b9ereeti
of its proceedings in the public journals, that tooteit
a great disinclination to inquire into anything edifillo
with the agricultural districts. If such an incinnaiellid
proposed, it was sure to he discovered that the otot`
most inconvenient for it. Why all this sensibilitit btror•
exist was more than he could understand, excePo
ferring it to some questions with which Ina Iforto
Gentlemen opposite did not think it advisable t°loo/0
the House. The Right Hon. Gentleman had la'
r,eija
the absence of the Hon. Member for Mancheste al);
he said, had been enjoying himself in the counttlioult?;
he and his colleagues had been employed 004;5'
after the interest of the poor, in 311. It a
the clauses of the Poor-law Amendment A6;06.051;0
an excellent occupation, and one there was Inncl•
for ; but it was just as useful to the country t°o 40
ie
Members of that House to apply their minds; 050,1
vering what were the true causes of panPFr's sche
treating pauperism as it existed, and devising, ,lobo.
of for relieving it. The
of a certain clergyman as a e popularity-1037
.0'
parson." Nothing was more easy than t fitOi
Right lion. Baronet had
,fook.
phrases for the purpose of getting rid of, a fl3caustifig
any individual might state. But this popularitieeroffot
parson happened to be connected with the aristwrote
fed
the country. He wrote—or somebody else
oatieeiot
him—Honourable before his name; and, cit 0
with the aristocracy and the Churc9' vitb fl'
not likely that he would run away the fle
any absurd or vulgar sympathies with
Gentle lation among whom he lived. Any Hon. Getitk-aotk
quainted with the county of Dorsetshire must "050
that gentleman was most active and zealous in, 05000
ing the duties of his office, and was most anll°„a fli„
desire to promote the wellbeing of those an n-,10,
he resided. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad °l,ll
the favourable account he had received from „ r
~/aeo
he had sent into the counties where these e.`" el
taken place;—why no one supposed that wit °oi
not be had ; no one supposed that convictions 1 „is
he obtained ; they knew perfectly well that 31of
last few weeks there had not been so Ine°„,,/ as, "e
outrages committed, as during some previous vi'-ocelt(1101
was it to be premised from that, that the causenbe
rism had been removed ? Why, he knew, if 411 ta4
Hon, Baronet or Hon. Gentlemen connected wh'restrcd
counties did not, that there had been many, <toll
letters sent in various parts of these distre; tr
very recent period. It was because his 11°,,:aileu,,V
did not wish to add to all the alarm that Preh'ig
stating the circumstances that had come t° pot vo,
ledge during his visit to Suffolk, that he badiie etlai
tioned them particularly. He believed that
of these outrages had not been by any me,_911..„9 bell
and that they might increase rather tni"-, bsev
With respect to the question of wages whicZorfolcit
alluded to by the Hon. Member for SOLO 51 P'
°
could assure him that there had never beelliiis fl
meeting in an agricultural county at wiliebif 10(jocl
Friend the Member for Stockport and bin's"p he" 08
tended during the last year, at which they •to fief
endeavoured to elucidate the subject of was sal
meeting, so as to show that the rate of wag ,a-
-e
tbe
at the disposal of the farmers, but depended
the number of the labourers as compare7lett,
amount of work to be done. If the 1/011,:,:i
bsre
opposite had, in discussions in tuLtild,"
taken an equally wise course, there "joieviiar
teen muoh less ill-feeling between the elnP,:fori,
the employed than there was at present. 1311i'pg `/#‘,
self, he could say that there was no man "',4 1311,101'
conscience was clearer 'of any imputation ."0 s
endeavoured to stir up the labouring polala,qoe„blictl
those by whom they were emplo) ed, and °nrtv ie tr
they lived. He had spoken of the
Hon. Members opposite displayed upou, 55 ttee
questions. Now, at an early period oi,-0.1.-or,
session, a motion had been made for a u°oo 01A'
-Inquiry into the effect of the protection dutrntion fit",
and farm-labourers. How was that 113-f the ',a tr
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the President en ath°",,,
of Trade, argued that there were persons 0, eriftf,
appointment of the Committee would have n'srter,e
able effect, particularly considering the
whence the proposition came. The sensibilities
010re5,/*
Gentlemen prevented him from granting tli;lie°r
tbee
though it would have been granted to any °"l,-010",,eforti
The Right Hon. Baronet stated that this crime been :004'
so frequent during the last week as it be"a; Vic" g
and that there was no disposition • the Noes t
that these things shouldinquired beiire in to ,he
int°•
ipsdep j
was a meeting of the inhabitants of Ratt;esteu,yl,„"°
into consideration the statement which aP.ci, sh,esciPi
'Times, and they wished that a Commissi.loneliten
appointed to inquire into the causes of 1.0010
That fact was not only a justification of bis,ee,
but a condemnation; of the Member for -cie-ssrayt looty
never sought for an inquiry into their cant, raalie to illn;
one fire every month had occurred in the eclette,
ing districts, nothingshould have been left ned ley 001:
vestigate a state of things so alarming. 'Aloe 111,
eooce,„
alarming that so many fires were taking P rice ffe'
counties ? Was it nothing that the in suwre ere of tyere suffering ?—that the tenant-farmers f one Co 09",
ing?—and that there was such an increase 0, with ,ar4,
worst of crimes? And yet they were tatinteltaeql; °oho
fering with what was not their concern. 1316,1010 c TPoi
went hadinstituted no inquiry, the Times an fires' use A
and they differed as to the cause of thesuthe c'eotroi
Times stated that the new poor-law weeseritnetresei•
them. The Chronicle said "No ; for tb Ad ia
tinder the old law, but the no longer beara:;otereuetibio
the labourer was the cause of it." He "'is° ree,P„
Kent, and he stopped at an inn, kept vied...'"
person who was a Tory, and always suPY Foree".eth "p
he tr
Hon. Gentleman, the Paymaster of the a tired
(Mr. Bright) had asked him e there Was ears; rat ,
the statement, that the new poor-law vl who lid
the labourer ? He replied that no person a°+ anarcitses
at less than 25 per cent. could be a gnefeeted soebcl3
fore no person but the farmers could be e e aadeeth ee_or
and that the labourer had no chatole_ake b
system, for he had a great difficulty tto're the ?re' patto
meet. But there was a grievance bel.here wnovild
which pressed upon the labourer, for ties ow rio
persons in those counties than there
for, and he believed that on the. '111,.„e
the responsibility of such a state of tnitss;aier ;
f), r 0 it 0
ber for Northamptonshire had, on
se was
ciewo.oo,
accused him of saying that that 1101!_ lan
e10•18_,,
landowners, and legislated for the benefit co.. Co
but the public must have come to rsaffoals,, oge:
though he had not said so. Rents ift,„ ye Pot 0;
as high, or higher, than they, ed
were re/
but the return of capital employed d tuee a- oi
not much higher novv than it was then
wido
of the labourers was becoming woogrnsesta'ndowt°awore9.
eelr°,s,l
was the keenest competition am 11
°
the community, except amongst the