The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-06 00:00:00

Secretary was under any necessity to be the agent of THE STATE OF THE NAVY.
Foreign Powers. The Earl of MINTO said he rose in pursuance of the
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he thought notice which he bad given the other evening, in relation
it would be better to postpone any discussion till a future to the state of the navy. He was quite aware of the
stage. inconvenience of introducing this topic at the present
The conversation then dropped. time, on account of the feverish state of mind which
THE CHURCH COMMISSION, existed in France. No man could be more anxious than
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a peti- himself for the preservation of peace, and nothing should
tion from holders of Church property, complaining of drop from him which was calculated to give umbrage to,
certain acts of the Church Commissioners. The Noble the French Government. In calling their Lordships
Marquis insisted that the Legislature had no more right attention to the state of the navy, he begged to say that
to interfere with property of this kind than with any he was no advocate for large naval establishments in
other property. lie prayed their Lordships to turn time of peace ; but there was a limit to the economy
their attention to the subject. which should be practised in relation to such matters.
The Bishop of LONDON denied that the Church Considering how entirely the power and interests of this
Commission had acted in the manner alluded to by the country depended on the navy, it could not be desir-
Noble Lord. They would have been guilty of a gross able to reduce it to the very low state to which it had
dereliction of duty if they did not make the raost of a now been brought. The confidence in peace was often
property with which that and the other House of Par- disappointed when its interruption seemed least likely.
liarnent had entrusted them. He could assure the Noble In 1792, Mr. Pitt gave it as his opinion that such was
Lord that any business transacted by a smaller number the security, for peace in the then circumstances of the
of the Commission was at theearliest period made known country, that they might count with confidence
to the greater. on its long continuance ; yet, within a year from that
The Duke of RICHMOND said that this being one period, the country entered upon the longest and bloodiest
of the few Commissions which did not make a report war in which it had ever been engaged. Other in'
.to enable the country to understand what it was doing, stances, of a similar kind, might be cited ; and he
he was as much in the dark as others. But he knew that thought the present aspect of
affairs was not such as
certain persons had complained of the severe views taken should induce them to feel no apprehension. There
by the Commission of its duties, and as the Right Rev. existed, unfortunately, on the part of no inconsiderable
Prelate courted inquiry into the transactions of that number of the French people, a feeling of no friendly
Commission, he (the Duke of Richmond) hoped that the nature towards this country ; and there were questions
Noble Marquis who had presented this petition would then pending which might materially affect English
move for a Select Committee upon the subject. interests. The events which were now pending on
After a few words from the Marquis of Clanricarde, the coast of Africa were such as it was impossible to
Lord Carbery, and Lord Wharncliffe, contemplate without, at least, some degree of 1113"
The Bishop of EXETER said that as a trustee of a prehension. The aspect of affairs throughout the
great public property for a great public purpose, he world was, in fact, such as to require some
trusted he might be allowed to say a few words on the degree of preparation on the part of this country.
subject. He considered that his duty as a trustee of The alarm which he felt on this subject was greatly in"
that property was to make the most of its value, and till creased by the tone assumed by her Majt sty's Govern'
he was told by the authority that delegated him to the ment, who, whenever this subject was mentioned, gave
office that the contrary was his duty, he should still fol- not the slightest intimation of their intention to increase
low the line he had laid down for himself when he ac- the existing force, or to put the country into a state in
cepted the trusteeship. which it would be enabled honourably to contend with a
Lord RADNOR thought that the principle laid down foreign Power. He could not doubt that the existence of
by the Right Rev. Prelate was a most just one, and he large British fleet would have a tendency to avert the
was astonished that the Noble Marquis and the Noble danger.—(Hear hear.) He would now state what was
Duke upon the cross-benches should have seemed to the present amount of the naval force of this count*
doubted the prop iety of it for a moment. He thought which he certainly thought totally inadequate to the
that the Commissioners had a full right to insist upon wants of the country, even in a state of profound peace,
the full value of their property ; and further, that they much more under the circumstances to'which he had re-
would be neglecting their duty if they did not do so. ferred. The whole navy of England at that period, 0
The Earl of BESBOROUG H hoped that the Noble respected line-of-battle ships, consisted of nine ships. Of
Marquis would investigate the subject further, and he these nine ships, two were upon a very distant station,
would find that the Commission did not at all deserve one was in the West Indies, one was under orders to
the remarks applied to it by the Noble Marquis. sail for the Pacific. They had, a short time ago, three
The subject then dropped. ships of the line in their home ports ; there was a flag-
The Criminal Justice (Middlesex) Bill was also read ship bearing the flag of the Admiral commanding A
a third time and passed. Cork ; and their ninth ship was the Mediterranean fleets
Lord WHARNCLIFFE then moved the resumption a Mediterranean fleet consisting of one ship-of•the-linel
of the debate upon the Railways Bill, and in so doing —(llear, hear.) Was that, under any circumstances, s
took occasion to state that, having fully considered the fit state of things ?—(Hear, hear.) Could their Lord'
effect of the words proposed to be inserted by the Right ships conceive a state of things which could make it to"
Rev. Prelate on the Episcopal bench (the Bishop of lerable that the Mediterranean fleet should be reduced to
London), he would briefly state what was the course the a single ship ? He certainly felt that this was a condi"
Government intended to pursue. The Right Rev. Pre- tion to which the navy ought never to have been re
late proposed in the 6th clause to insert certain words in duced—a state of insecurity in which the country never
order to prevent what he supposed to be a compulsory should have been placed. It was true that the Medi"
enactment upon railway proprietors to run third-class torranean fleet now amounted to three ships-of-the-
trains upon Sundays. Now, the feeling of the House no line, having been reinforced by two line of-battle
doubt was this, that although it might not be desirable ships, in consequence, he presumed, of the state
to compel trains to be run on the Lord's-day, yet that it of affairs in Morocco. Now he did complain of
would be most unjust to the humbler classes of the this state of things as a wanton sacrifice of the safety
public if measures were to be taken under this Act and honour of the country. Great complaints were'
which would give an undue advantage to the wealthy— made in 1838 of the inefficiency of the naval force as'
which would compel the convenience of Dives to be con- that time; but in reply to such complaints, he showed
stilted, whilst Lazarus was refused permission to travel. that there was as large a force available as could be re'
—(Hear, hear.) Now there were certainly two reasons attired. It was then a time of profound peace, there
deserving some weight why the clause, as it at present was nothing to cause the least anxiety, and yet the force
stood, should be made the subject of some considera- , was much larger than it was at the present moron"
tion. In the first place, when this Act was originally there being no less than eighteen ships of the line in
submitted to the proprietors of railways they were not commission. A Noble Friend of his (Lord Melville)-
led to expect that anything would appear in it under complained at that time that though the force might be
which they would be compelled to run third-class car- sufficient for the service abroad, yet there was not at
riages on Sundays ; and secondly, there could be no sufficient reserve of ships maintained for the defence et
doubt but that if these trains were run, Government this country. Now at that very time there were silt
inspectors and other persons must be compelled to ships of the line in our home ports, and two more at Lisboa'
break into their day of rest, in order to superintend and There was the greatest difficulty in getting good sea'
regulate the traffic. Under these circumstances the Go- men, England was the last country in the world that
vernment had come to this decision, that nothing should ought not to be provided properly with seafaring men'
appear in the Act to compel railway proprietors to run As an instance of the manner in which the English ha.
trains on Sundays ; but that if they did run such trains, been treated by foreign nations, in consequence of their
they should be compelled to afford as much accommoda- not having a sufficient fleet, he need only advert to tha
tion to the poor as they afforded to the wealthy.— ease of Otaheite, where the Consul of this country bad
(Cheers.) They had, therefore, prepared a clause to be been treated in the most disrespectful manner. The tie'
introduced by way of rider to the sixth clause, as position of Queen Pomare in Otaheite did not deprive
amended by the Bishop of London, and under which the Consul of this country of the powers he possessed;
clause it would be enacted that whenever any railway and the course that had been pursued towards him er,
should ran any train whatever upon the Sabbath-day, peared a great disgrace to this country. lie thouge*
to such train, or to one at least of any trains so run on that the acts of violence that had taken plate
the day, third•class carriages should be attached. This at Otaheite showed great want of perseverance ""
amendment would, he hoped, entirely meet the difficulty the part of this country. Did not all these
which had been raised to the clause. things show that some protective force ought to be iota
Lord MONTEAGLE said the point to which he up—one that would ensure respect and not allow
~P 4;
wished to call the attention of the House was, whether country to be made the laughing stock of the world? Ire
the accommodation and cost of travelling to the poorer was satisfied that the present Ministry of France mean
classes would be equal on the Sunday with other days of well, but he was doubtful of its durability. He thou
the week. If that were the case, he would not say a that the state of the fleets of this country ought to bof
word against the clause, but cordially support it ; but, strengthened in the Mediterranean, for the purposely,
if such were not the case, the clause was a nullity, keeping up the position which the country held inlg
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said he understood it was scale of nations. The Noble Earl concluded by Inoll,l
the intention of the other House of Parliament to make " a return of her Majesty's ships of war (other than
the cost of the third-class the same on Sundays as on the those reserved for harbour duty) in commission 0n,t,.,-o
other days of the week. He could not conceive there 31st of July, 1844 ; and also a return of her Maies-J,„ would be any difference of accommodation. ships of war present at Otaheite from the Ist of SePte''";
Lord MONTEAGLE wished the clause were more ber, 1842, to the latest period to which advises have been
distinct. Unless some provision were made by the Le- received, specifying the date of the arrival there and ot^
gislature, there was little doubt but the railway pro- parture from thence of each ship."
prietors would give such scanty accommodation as would The Earl of HADDINGTON said the Noble Earlhsa
force the travellers to go into the other trains. impressed on the House the sense of deep responsibilitl
The Earl of MINTO said it would give great offence he felt in bringing forward such a question at an inoet.
in Scotland if the trains were not allowed to run on venient moment ; he said also that he was quite
sieva""
Christmas Day and Good Friday, for neither day was of the inconvenience of the present time; he then pre:
observed there. It would not be right for the Legis- ceeded to remark in what that inconvenience consisted
lature to compel their observance, at least to a very in- and he then committed himself, on his own showing,
convenient extent. great impropriety, by drawing the attention of err
The Bishop of LONDON said he would word the Lordships to what he was pleased to call the deplorable
amendment thus—" On every week-day, and, in England, state of the naval defence of this country. He (Lord
upon Good Friday and Christmas-day."—(Hear.) Haddington) was also well aware of the inconvenie%
The Earl of DALHOUSIE then expressed a hope at the present time, of a discussion of this nature. f
that the amendment, as it now stood, would prove gene- should therefore make it his duty to abstain from
rally satisfactory. He repeated the opinion of the Noble observations which might at all add to that inconvello
Lord the President of the Council, that no objection ence—and he should occupy their Lordships' attentt%
would be offered to any amendment proposed in the for as short a time as possible. He should only tot
boc
House of Commons, with a view to regulate the fares to on such parts of the speech of the Noble Earl ass
be taken upon the Sundays. With regard, however, to thought necessary for the defence of his departmeel
the description of carriages to be put upon the line, he and of her Majesty's Government. The Noble N!'iri
thought that was a point that would be rather dangerous said he was not for keeping up an urenecessafi 6
to tamper with, and certainly he was not prepared to go large naval force; but that making' such reducti°l;s
the same length that other Noble Lords were inclined to as might be necessary we,-3 "a very diffe.rete
go with reference to that particular. Undoubtedly, it thing from what he
'we's pleased to denonos4
was true that the third-class system had not hitherto a truckling submission. He was most anxious to 0;10
been carried into full effect by railway proprietors, but in what this truckling submission consisted. The
now that the sense of Parliament and of the public was Earl did not particularise, he gave no instances of !on
so decidedly expressed in its favour, be did hope that he merely said, that nothing could justify the redn,ctid,
the companies would do all in their power to bring that of the navy to its present state. Now he (Lord
-11gor
system into general operation. dington) had about him a return of the number 01 of
The Earl of WICKLOW entirely agreed with Noble Majesty's ships in commission in the three Yeartsbet
Lords opposite, that it was highly necessary to the prat- 1839, 1840, and 1844, and the result was. the
ticel working of this clause that the poor should not be the number of line of battle ships in• commission to in
subjected to higher fares or to worse accommodation year ending July, 1840, was greater than the
istunleo
upon Sundays than upon any other clay of the week. commission in the year ending July, 1844. But ti.er
lie should think it very fair and proper to introduce the House should remember, that at that time ti.'
words providing that ail third-class carriages should were carrying on hostilities in the Mediterranean, 113
of
contain seats, and should be protected by canvass against were bombarding the town of Acre. But this state
the weather. things had passed away ; this country was at Pre'lie-
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE asked if the rail- in a condition of profound peace, and to keep up ai
way companies under this clause would be enabled, if thing approaching to that establishment now, svoillu,d
they pleased, to run on Sundays a third-class train for an extravagance, which however it might be apPr°,,e
third-class passengers only ? by the Admiralty, which never disliked a large fFey-tel
Lord WHARNCLIFFE replied, that as he understood afloat, her Majesty's Government would not be juttTot
the clause, it
take that course. would be perfectly open to the companies to in entertaining. In 1838 the Noble Lord said,
theYth'ese
eighteen line-of-battle ships in commission ; of eon
Lord CLANRICARDE—WouId they in that case be eighteen, three were guard-ships, which were tube
obliged to run other trains ? manned as fifth-rate frigates, and were, as ships., t.teteee
The Earl of DALHOUSIE thought not. sent to sea, perfectly useless. This reduced the elgT„otl
Lord MONTEAGLE would add the amendment, to fifteen ; and these fifteen were of that under-1315'1,s
" providing the third-class train have covering and seats." class in which the Noble Earl so much delighi,e7ess
He thought that was so reasonable that nobody could (Hear, hear.) Those ships which were in the Mew. object to it. it
ranean were greatly under-manned ; so much so, thetp
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said the poor would have was with extreme regret that he heard it dello
the superior advantage of travelling at twenty-five miles at the time, by no less an authority Ivy
an hour on Sundays, instead of twelve miles as on the Commodore Sir Charles Napier, that if
with
week days. had then unfortunately gone to war „,„ of
The Marquis of NORMANBY did not think speed France, we should have been beaten in conseouee'flost,
was the chief object of the poor man, who wished to get our ships being under-manned. Again, by the, rat
out of town for recreation. He wished that the third- estimates of 1838, it appeared that the whole nuinuetto
class trains might stop at all the stations at which the sailors voted was 23,165. But be it observed
other trains stopped. number voted in the present year was 36,000.--( T esO,
The Earl of DALHOUSIE did not agree with the Now that was a very large peace establishment-, of
Noble Marquis, the effect of whose proposal would be to Noble Lord had insinuated that the present nuenuhe tlie
interfere with private property in a most peremptory nine ships of the line was the number to which he
and unreasonable manner, without any great State Government was determined to restrict itself. uay
necessity for so doing. protested against the Noble Lord's holding out t ver
Lord COTTENHAM thsaugholtat ethird-class car- the intention of the Government—that it would .te, of
riages should be attached to tetaittOtri'eli stopped atevery be necessary, in time of peace, to exceed nine sh.,,,Jr the
station on the particular line, and not to those which the line. With a great deal of what had fallen flnlore
ran throughout with but few stoppages. Noble Lord he was disposed to agree, as to the et%",e 0'
The Earl of RADNOR did not think the clause was meat of lice-of-battle ships. Taking a general vl
tsits
compulsory ;it only provided that if railway companies the matter, he thought there ought to be a ceed the
ran trains on a Sunday, they should have third-class car- number disposable. The Noble Lord had repeat foree jee
riages also. It did not compel them to run the trains on complaint he made on a former night as to the ati"
a Sunday. e _
the Mediterranean; and he (Lord Haddington) only
Lord CAMPBELLmoved that the debate be adjourned to repeat the answer he had then given to it. Thed eolf
till to-morrow.
Lord said the fleet in the Mediterranean consisted Oro'
The Bishop of LONDON repeated his objection to the of one line-of-battle ship. Now when they were l';", sop
clause which provided that third-class carriages should found peace with France, and were likely to cent-4'040
be run on a Sunday. He did not wish to prevent rail- it was by no means necessary that they should al/Poiglit
way companies from running such trains, but he could their own force in that sea to what the Freuelil3, their
not be a party to compelling them to do so. He re- consider necessary for their interest there. J„, the
minded their Lordships that although these trains pro- possession of Algeria they had great interest,_°, sviis
vided the means of recreation for a great number of per- other side of that sea ; their principal pert, Teurveses-
sons, yet a great number of servants were obliged to be in the Mediterranean, and there was much niO,rfro the°
engaged in conjunction with those trains, and those sity for them to have a considerable force te',o eeer,
persons, of course, were deprived of their Sabbaths day. this country had. If they thought it necessary'
The Earl of MINTO said they were about to go to a cise their ships there, it was no reason foqatsthear
vote on the faith that if the Right Rev, Prelate's amend- always keeping there a force equal to it. 1Y bat
ment were carried, a clause providing third-class car- had to look to was, the protection of British wthey
riages for passengers would be proposed. This clause, and he was not aware of any case in which t
however, no one seemed to understand. been neglected. The Noble Earl had made out won'
Lord MONTEAGLE thought their Lordships in liamentary case, though he had made a us_us to Ilia
justice ought to place a clause in the Bill, providing that venient speech—(llear, hear)—not inconvenient t‘osief
all third-class carriages should be fitted up with seats, self; for that was but a small consideration7re`oe,tiet
and should also be covered, his motion coupled with his speech, alleging t."„oopht01,
Lord CAMPBELL thought it would be better to put of ships at present employed as a cause 9t
ordshiP
an end to this kind of hurly burly debate—(Laughter)— against the Government, he should askhe tsrlibeeclityri
and come to a vote on the clause proposed by the Noble to decide the question by voting—as
oyes
Lord opposite. self—against the production of the • IL" e
tit
had
The Earl of MINTO opposed the adjournment of the for by the Noble Earl. The Noble 14
-°rd tir
rice.
debate. notshownthatihesafetyo.,Fra
cb
eth
After a short conversation, the amendment was quired more, for they were at peace 'but thast
agreed to. and if war was probable, it was not likely.
On a clause introduced by Lord WHARNCLIFFE a " coming event" would " cast its shadow b I°'
being put, that event, he contended, this country had
Lord MONTEAGLE proposed, as an amendment, They had thirty advanced ships in ord ar
neatly to be 1311,
that the third-class carriages should be provided with their fittings up, and rigging, and stores, reads and'
si;
a_n,i7Flowiratheepj.!
sea but ni oil t
seats, and protected from the weather.
Their Lordships divided, when there appeared— on board—wanting nothing for tber
For the amendment
.he done in. ae.dayzrolru hsrd
Against it
consifoth
Majority against the amendment
The clause was then agreed to, and the Bill passed. abte progress in erecting steam CAP'