The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

IMPEitIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 12.
DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL.
Mr. VIVIAN presented petitions against this Bill.
IRISH CHURCH.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE.)
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that the Hon. Baronet
who had just sat down would, it seemed, most gladly
make a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy of
Ireland, which was not wanted by them, and which
they refused—(Flear, hear) ;z--but he would not give
them that to which they were justly entitled. The
time was when they would have gladly accepted
such a provision ; but the Honourable Baronet
might thank the party with which he, at present
acted that their proposal was not received. He
thought the allusion to the want of interest mani-
fested upon this subject was more infeliCitous, bee
cause it could not be supposed that, after listening to
a long discussion on the mode of preserving dead
bodies, they could give a very rigid attention to the
important motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
They had already induced a state of despondency in
Ireland ; by their vote that night they might super-
induce a state of despair, and what would be the result
of that it was impossible to say. Consenting to go into
a Committee on this subject at this late period of the
session would be a matter of much importance.
What Irish measures had been introduced in this
session ?—(Hear.) The Irish Registration Bill had
convinced the msjority of the people of Ireland
that the Government intended to limit, rather than
extend, the franchise. The Municipal Registration
Bill was, if possible, still more offensive, and if it ever
came to be discussed he believed that would be
proved to be the fact.—(Hear.) He alone had
presented, during the present session, more than 300
petitions against that measure. ow, they had an
opportunity at present of exciting the gratitude
of the Irish people by going into Committee on this
subject. The State trials were over. Had they checked
the influence of the conspirators ? Had they not at this
moment a cry throughout Ireland fn. the great mea-
sure of relief which it had been their effort to preclude.
In the same district, where Archdeacon Lacy re-
sided, and where he died, possessed of the wealth that
had been mentioned, the Catholic dignitary died, after
fifty years of labour, possessed of only tenpence-half-
penny, and the expense of his funeral was defrayed
by subscription. It was incumbent on them to do
something for the Catholic people of Ireland. The
memory of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
Colonies, seemed to have failed him regarding the
language used by him on the subject of the Catholic
oath. His observations were most injudicious and
ill-timed, and rankled in the minds of tbe people of
Ireland. Their attempts to.prop up the Established
Church 'm Ireland were only sapping and under-
mining it, and it must, ere long, tumble about the
ears of its supporters, if they did not make a material
change in their policy. The people of Ireland were
now in a state of the greatest political excitement ;
and there was an immense number of troops which
they could not at present withdraw, whatever their
exigencies might be. Within the last two months a
pamphlet had been issued from the French press
which had excited general attention—it was the pro-
duction of the son of the King of France, and it had
sunk deeply into the minds of the French people.
Suppose the amicable relations with France became
disturbed, which was not at all unlikely, and that the
plan of the Prince de Joinville was carried out, that
war steamers and gun-boats were sent to the coast of
Ireland, let him ask the Government then to whom
would they trust for the defence of the country ?
Was it to the Established Church, or to.the Protestant
clergy, or was it to the stout hands and warm hearts
of the peasantry ? Well, he really thought, notwith-
standing the high opinion the Right Hon. Baronet
seemed to entertain of the strength of the Protestant
squirearchy,•they would make but a feeble defence
against a formidable invasion.—(llear, hear.) Were
they willing to give the people some earnest that they
intended to legislate on principles of equality and jus-
tice ? If they were, they should begin in time, and
not wait until it might be too late—until the enemy
was at hand, when no doubt they would be lavish
enough of promises, but when promises would be
useless. He would not trespass further on the time
of the House.
Mr. HORNBY opposed the motion, and dwelt
upon the necessity of maintaining the Established
Church in Ireland in its present condition. No-
thing would more tend to weaken the connection
between the two countries than impairing the
strength of the Irish Establishment.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE, after a preliminary
observation on the reason which induced him to
come forward, proceeded to say, that he regretted the
Hon. Member for Sheffield had not made his motion
more definite, and had not aimed a more determined
blow at the Irish Established Church. The speech
of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had
extinguished all hope of the Government making any
change in the present system. He declared the Church
must continue a fixture—that it was an irreproachable
monument of the wisdom of their policy, and that not
a ray of truth or inquiry should penetrate into the
darkest of its recesses. In his native parish, Glencoville,
forfortyyears,there had not been .a Protestant Church
nor a Protestant rector, and vet his tenantry were
obliged to pay tithes, or rent-charge, which was the
same thing, although they all went to mass, and
though there was not a single Protestant in the pa-
rish. His father was a Roman Catholic ; his mother
and sisters were Protestants; but his mother and
sisters had travelled eleven miles to church every Sun-
day. They might have gone to the next parish church,
but there they would have heard along sermon, in
which Roman Catholics were attacked in the coarsest
and most vituperative language, and they did not like
to listen to a sermon in which their father and bro •
thers were denominated infidels and idolators.—
(Hear, hear.) Archdeacon Marley, of the parish of
Anaghdown, in Galway, had no other congregation
than hi: clerk, and he was a Roman Catholic.—
(Laughter.) Once the Archdeacon was invited to
dinner on a Christmas-day by a parishioner, and ex-
cused himself for delay on the ground that his clerk
had been at mass, as it was Christmas-day.—(Re-
newed laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
applaud himself for the more equal division of the re-
venues of the Established Church, which had recently
take place in Ireland, but what was it to the people
as long as they were obliged to pay the same money,
whether the remains were given to few or many ? It
was little satisfaction to the man who had been robbed
by several highwayman, that the spoil had been
equally distributed among them. Before the French
Revolution broke out, M. Necker, father of Madame
de Steel, took the tax off the hati to put it on the
shoe. The French people laughed at him; and be-
fore they guillotined the Monarch, they caricatured
the Minister. He approved of Lord Howick's no-
tions on the Irish Church, and thought that, if car-
ried into operation, they would be productive of the
greatest benefit to. the whole people. The Executive
Government of Ireland were persons who were inca-
pable-of performing the functions which had been en-
trusted to them. flow could the people of Ireland be
contented under the present system of government in
that country? It would be contrary to nature to
expect it. fhe Church Establishment must perish
sooner or later. Even if repeal were not carried,
such an Establishment could not continue with the
sanction of such an intelligent population as the inha-
bitants of this empire. The mind of Ireland had be-
come too elastic and buoyant to sink under so unna-
tural a burden.
Mr. HAMILTON regretted that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield should think it his duty to make an
annual attack upon Church property in Ireland. The
time was gone by when the question of the Church of
Ireland was likely to be an engine to be used for
party purposes. He believed that the maintenance of
the Church of England in Ireland was calculated to
maintain religious truth. It ought to be kept up be-
cause this was a Protestant State. He would ask
whether 2001. a year was too great an
income for a gentleman of education to enjoy who
held the situation of a beneficed clergyman ? yet this
amount was that which would only fall to the share
of each clergyman of England if the annual income
of the Church were divided equally amongst them.
Considerably more than one half of the benefices of
Ireland were less than 3001. a year, and only about
twenty-six were more than a thousand a year.
These facts were shown by the reports of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners. The Hon. Gentleman then
read a statement of the amount derivable from several
benefices in Ireland. He was sure that the more the
question was discussed the better situation the
Church would stand in.—(Hear.)
Sir C;NAPIER thought that they would never
do justice to Ireland as long as they were in a state
of peace ; it was not wise or politic to let Ireland re-
main in the state she was. He thought great consi-
deration ought to be given to the pamphlet of the
Prince de Jonville.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no
division took place, and on our re-admission to the
gallery we found
Mr. P. BORTHWICK addressing the House in
opposition to the motion. He regretted extremely
that this motion should be brought forward annually,
as he considered it calculated to excite irritable feel-
ings between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants.
The real grievance of Ireland was not in the Church,
but in the poverty of its people and the bitterness of
party feeling. Even the cry of repeal had carried
but little weight, till the magical words " fixity of
tenure," had been brought to its support. Then was
it that the multitude rushed to the support of Mr.
O'Connell, and that the isle was flighted from its
propriety. This " fixity of tenure" was that which
roused Ireland, and not the connection between
Church and State—a connection which he (Mr.

Borthwick) maintained was a desirable and a neces-

sary one in any country. Only a short time ago an
illustrious individual in another place had declared that
every man, whatever his belief might be, was inte-
rested in maintaining the principles of the k►eforma-

tion. He contended that the religious sentimentri_en
necessary to insure the stability of every Gov!! e'Lich
He thanked the House for the attention with
v:",,
they had heard him, and apologised for obser rom
made in so crude and ill-digested a manner.
Air. -VERNON SMITH congratulated the
Gentleman on having, on this occasion, becotw..
saviour of the Irish Church ; if he had not risen_r.
he did, they would certainly have carried time
tp
mittee, but the Hon. Member had very or not
displayed his great powers of information, ne„.teh
say, on every subject except that more im.n etti_:oo
before the House, and when that failed hire '_ory
kin lly supplied with refreshment from the Tr,4sth)
benches— (Laughter)—which he (Mr. IT• °I 510.
more,3
orti
hoped was merely a forerunner of other
stantial favours from the same quarter..ial,';ol
Stanley, .during Mr. Borthwick' spech
Lord A. Lennox to the lobby ofs the Nou,
se for as
orange, which the Noble Lord handed to the lion•taiblo,
ber.) The lion. Member had certainly establishtect_thol
self as one of the first speakers against time ine4d
ti t
ever appeared in that House. It often haPr,.'"rdeela.
topics of importance were made an occasion io
3ttie.
mation, and he was not surprised that mangy' fc"00
men had voted this question a bore, and iwbects
down to listen to the discussion. But other.t: Joe
of equal importance had been neglected 10 the
manner in that House, and yet they had heenyetbasi
carried. On the question of Parliamentary nshea
he believed the House was counted out a %'Vathelic
time before it was carried. The question or
115001
Emancipation was for a long period ees than
rather as a thesis for young speaker nosed'
as a practical measure, before it roalLi
It was highly necessary that theY vie of
pay attention to this measure, for than
preserving the peace of Ireland, which was ' froca
nent danger. It might be broken either ionic
failure of the potato crop or the firing "rt ib•it
gun in Europe. He believed that, if the refg:h ship
Admiral Dupetit Thouars had sunk an Enfhe
at Otehaite had been true, the question of 'eoeesitf,
Church would have been settled, from the >n
they should have been under of calling in the
ee the
their fellow-countrymen. He wi-hed to s.tb this
way in which the Ministry intended to deal ;1%1
question. The Irish Church was always t eon'
cult y that stood in the way of establishing' al estsb'
ment in Ireland. When the late Governine° church
lished the system of national education, the were
was the greatest opponent of it, and rtlie'systeel;
still the greatest opponents of that usell'lntiono'
The Church stood in the way of the adinituttcalti,'
justice, as the Government knew from the
07defen°'
with respect to Catholic juries. They talk' v.a fie
ing the Church on the score of defending .on pro'
of property. Why, they made greater inn alters,
alter
perty every day than would be caused hY.Aneillfreei
tion of the Catholic Church. Every railt°7; rights t
duced a great and compulsory change in twecould
property. On the ground of religion_, be , its's'
see how they could maintain the Cluiro nsati
present existed. It had totally failed in PArluot,g"
the Protestant Church in Ireland. Begot"' la ire;
prove of an universal voluntary, systeni73 luatarj
land the majority of the population had 61501°1 ono
system, and the minority had a colnP?be
That was the very worst position in whir" °bola
could stand in this respect ; their ohject:weea 78
,
to produce something like an equality freven-e
Churches. He considered that the amount °and t!'t
enjoyed by the Protestant Church, d with itt'i
conduct of individual dignitaries connecteeensiciet,s
were minor points of the question. lie, On
the Church rather as a religious ri in Irk
g_eVanC- b
pecuniary one. He considered the Cburc. and
land as an anti-Protestant Establishment. 1.,/e
such he was prepared to deal Ivit" tirely ue'
wished to see the Catholic clergy riot re.ved
pendent on their congregations, es it dier,aince fret
of their moral independence, while an at.Th°v`hoalri
ie
the State would secure their loyalty: Abe clollerA
go into the means by which this might "; woio"fe•
did not anticipate that any great rnovetnen" 00313:,„'
made by the Government in regard to thisinost '""0".
Seeing how they were supported it wras t° dot
possible for them, even if they wished h Clia le
All their support was derived from the 11,4figsh Pekel,Pl
party in this country. The Dnb— but *.e-
were generally moderate and quiet' hicli
had their periods of excitement Iv eiectiori
nerally occurred at the septennial,' it ao,
and he could assure the Government thabtrofert.;
not do to go to the constituencies with th,f,e Colt
tariff, their Ecclesiastical Courts 8i11+3,,,"i0re11,),-;
Courts Bill, or such a question as that or 'd whioye,
tension, which had done nothing as yet, en In $
p)
believed would end with doing very Ste
cent debate the Noble Lord opposite (Ler Calb,°t.
fic
had introduced the question of the Rome° ofpotire
oath, and read it at the table, for the puretliey ice
ing out the subjects on which he though'
bound not to vote.
Lord STANLEY--I said the very Oetrtlfleticeth
Mr. V. SMITH—It was of vers, little ei.° hr011,34P
what the Noble Lord had said : why bed lediloct
forward and read the oath at all ? ll odorbali
over the debates on the Catholic Relief It'u'id no'ibe"
it was propcsed that Roman Catholics se°loelit ,t•
allowed to vote on questions affecting the livid ne,
Right Hon. Bar -met opposite said he `void be esf..
allow that any Member of that House sne",., .rimy PR-0.
eluded from forming his own judgment °:"e the `"„0..
titular case, and he was unwilling to dePr': e
man Catholic Members of that liberty cif I,freionget'the
mon, and the exercise of judgment, which i'eleti to to
every Member of Parliament. He 'aPP°hetbertir
recollection of the Right Hon. Baronet o'
did not use language to this effect, for hen`f
Smith) was not prepared with any us'aP la
sa. rd. He did not know what object 1" bait'
rived from maintaining this oath. It wss,:„l",
fit, for the Established Church, for since,. it for wee.
enjoined every Member was to interpre'cte of 3.", th
self ; and it should be left to the good t3fn the
Gentlemen whether they would throw it (ilia 00t ;%•
of Roman Catholic Members, that tbeY
otdd he d
here to it. He did not think that ouch c,,uestl°"..eat
pected from the present Government on a "I thethe
this nature, but if then wished to rennAfenclendao.
source of discontent in Ireland they svou,'" that r°
present state of the Estsblished Church 10
try.—(Hear, hear.) ori
Mr. BORTHWICK explained. , &to °cc the
Sir J. GRAHAM said he WAS unwll"%eeing • etl
the time of the House at any leegthembsracteT..„
apparent weariness and langour which a rasnueoho
the present debate in so remarkable iviewher
out-
(Hear, hear.) He thought the o°"'ciderahle,tioo
introduced this subject had very cone desto,'; not
stripped public opinion in seeking for bije 01."'into
of the Protestant Church in Ireland• spolie lost Ile
follow the Right Hon. Gentleman wh°„o.tic oaths, to
the rather irrelevant subject of the Cat'Linher the
agreed with him, however, that each Di.c as to,
; ota'
be bound by his own conscientious °P."' for n° the
interpretation of the oath, and it
waseording to
Member to ask of him to interpret it ae
.3, hear.) eor
view which he took of it himself —O-fern
on ,he coo-
Roman Catholic Members were
plete understanding that the obligab. being
e;a,
was binding on their consciences, and tin' •oterPr. ht
'row° ' f
was left to each individual to put thei .3., the v. o•
tion on the oath. He also agreed "li"dif6cl." fold
Hon. Gentleman with respect to tha..,.A irediarf
dealing with religious subjects in reg".7stipentiin,ht
admitteodo also
so
I where there was a voluntary Church, „..t .t the J*o
Church, and an Established Church. But ioten;ot
Hon. Gentleman had asked what were,w_ FrotesL_tif
of the Government with regard to tnor freciaro°44l
Church. He (Sir J. Graham) had
,senhilons,4,oo
debated this subject, and expressed hicont. Gent was
regard to it, that from him the Right tit' believe
could expect but one answer, which veL it was d of
also the opinion of his colleagues—that!.
of /r ita
nresidatinft, it
desire to purify the Established Chure
every abuse, and to strengthen it hY urifiea tab.
discipline and practice; and, having 504 the PTV
was their determination to support as
d pia
lished Church of Ireland.—(Minsteria 3_,ect ha 0,
Hon. Gentleman who introduced the 5.11%, very
that the Established Church in Irelankwenneurreude,
efficient, and had made no converts: t'thlnt
the opinion of Mr. Buxton, who, gises °f the to the
dared it as his opinion that the abu ditnenta ,
lished Church were the great inn)! in Ivo!. no-
spread of the Establishod Church __s reedity,,en,
(Hear, hear.) He and his colleague.n
ffice or I mho
mitted that; and, whether in 0
Church in
they did their best to remove thes.ehaebduses.
Gentleman said that the E
MarY• did ot
lan3dirw.alsvAthielDworssatidChhuercdhiiii?nohlt:isstae;dso:•
think
e
quoted the opinion of Queen
• Sir JAMES GRAHAM seed protestant
42uee
that it could be expected that thei opinto
the
Mary could be very favouraP e
A til°
of 169-'
Church. marl
tio
wife of William 111.
Mr. WARD meant the Queen
Hon in adin
pardon ; but, at all evenit n
events,
than the Reve_e of
Sir J. GRAHAM begged.
ethelvas
that within a period a littleh reaGdYentleinilitionit,
w•Cerbelireltld
thererelan
Ireland
ewriej bich u
in it which none of
it a cent "
imperfections
to remove those
.tie 00,
wereses ain ditsgeracEes. ta_blli.isshreredrie d$ sv
was passed hYt'3,•3-ohle
last quarter of
buses.
by los 3c,
d introduced , e w "
n
vernment of Earl Grey,
Anotherewviesrhy taoffsneret
important hadbu t wi
beent
mhi ma
stauhdreee
diminished time Protestant
Friend the Member for North Lanrohlf '101;
recautions in igo
and they took ample
pointed °s
and
for the University of sinecure a_
Pe,
• reducing t, of Ir
against sinecures and pluraPlivsts and both theotit the
effect of those measures in . chutc. be
hierarchy of the cooding
hiirstetend°n" ° ' t o°'ll
r no,
oath hui eh _
of thepluralities.
believed that the ministers of t
Protestantfaith. They
parison withvia.enryereEirdfolti:isstnedrs dive