The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

in the course of which speech the Honourab le Gentle-
man, after having advocated a transference I if the local
taxation of the agricultural districts to t bee general
taxation of the country, had stated that that N nee not the
only relief to which the agriculturists were ev titled, and
that it would not by itself enable them to bear up
against the 'shored circumstances in which ieey were
placed. The Honourable Gentleman had f pee on to
say that, immediately after the assembling of Parlia-
ment, he thought that all England ought to g pray for
the establishment of a sinking fund, and t bat, in his
opinion, the best and most practical way at`' creating
such a fund was to lay an ad valorem duty on all articles
of foreign import.—(Hear, hear.) The lis 'nourablo
Gentleman hal added, " That is the weal son—the
charmed weapon—with which we shall win th a battle.
Put that weapon into the hands of any knight whom
you may choose to fight your betas, and I
stoke my political reputation on its success." Now, he
(Sir G. Grey) thought they had a right tto know
whether the Hon. Gentleman still staked his: political
reputation on the success of such a proposal, :and wte-
then if they were to agree to that motion, they were to
have an ad valorem duty upon every article I d • foreign
import, including, of course, the article of cor'? That
was a question to which he hoped the Hon. (ii ,ntleman
would give an explicit answer before they shy atsld go to
a division upon the subject then tinder their )esidera-
don. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman th at ho heel
listened with much satisfaction to the tempera te tone of
his address that evening; he did not think tt ere was a
single expression in the speech of the lion. t leintleman
which could give pain to any one; and he c Lily hoped
that in the answer he had ennoavoured to gi es to that
speech ho had avoided stating anything which could give
offence, and not only which could give offence, but which
could indicate a want of sympathy on his pert ha the dis-
tress which prevailed among a portion of th e agricul-
tural body. lie should observe, however, that: the lion.
Gentleman himself considered that a return us the pro-
tective system, es a remedy fsr that distress., was fir
the present, at least, perfectly hopele 6s. All
his (Sir G. Grey's) interests were intim t -ly con-
nected with the prosperity of the agricultural la )dy ; and
he believed that nothing could be mere prej u dicial to
that body than to lead them to expect great r lief from
any system which Parliament could pursue. He was
convinced that a return to the protectirri system
was at present utterly out of the question. Ile be
lieved that such a measure would be mis chievous
to all classes of the community. Ho belies •ed that
the true interests of the agricultural body a -ere inti-
mately bound up with the true interests of et ,e ry other
class in the community, and that it was impo: Is able that
manufactures could fi mrish in any country in which
agriculture
depressed.se-(FIc en) He
admitted, stated, that distress inrevailed
as washe
among a portion of the agricultural classes; , that was
hraed7rn beTifn iree s
no reason why they should not endeavour o ► improve
their condition by energy, industry, and the a 3 plication
of increased skill and capital to the cultivati o n of the
land. He trusted that the result of the dis tcussions
in that House would be to undeceive those w b o might
have been misled by whet on one occasion bad been
called the "splendid coruscations" of the IL re. Mete-
ber far Buckinghamshire. Ho trusted that arhe plain
souse which people were compelled to speak in tle at House
would have the effect of showing the agricul tsarists of
the country, who admired, and justly admired„ the elo-
quence cf the lion. Gentleman, that they had been de-
ceived, and that they had been led to indulg 3 in vain
anticipations of large measures of relief, espece: Illy by a
return to the protective system. Ile trusted diet they
would see that they only injured themselves b:a that de-
spondent spirit, which was encouraged and fi s !ered by
persons who, for their own sakes, should has endea-
voured to create among them a very different te .roper of
mind. lle believed that the discussion on the address,
which had taken place ut the commencement of the sesl-
sion, the discussion upon the present occasion,, and the
discussion which would take place on any subs, quest
proposal which
the Hon. Gentleman might r r eke for
completing the series of measures which he w. yuld wish
them to adopt, would have the effect of leading the agri-
culturists of this country to look to themselves ;for a re-
medy of the evils of which they complained by a better
cultivation of the land, aad the employment of that in-
dustry and energy which distinguished all c Lssaes of
Englishmen, and which they, too, possessed. —(Rear,
hear.) For the reasons ho had stated, he fe lit bound
to oppose the motion which the Hon. Gentle men had
made.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHARTERIS said he felt bound to strteport the
motion. It appeared to him that the speech of t b e Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the 110 use had
been mainly directed to show that the burdens on laud
had been considerably diminished in consequenc e of the
increased value of house property during the la st 30 or
40 years. But if the burdens were in thernselsets unju't,
as he (Mr. Charteris) believed them to be, he &it that
their being at present less than they had form ealy been
afforded no sufficient ground for opposing their :removal.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire
bad based his claim for a removal of those hat dens on
the prevalence of agricultural distress. Now, he (Mr.
Charteris) did not deny the existence of that distress,
although he did not attribute it to the same cause to
which it had been attributed by the Hon. Gor itleman,
and he did not believe that it would be permanozit. But
be did not wish to come before that House in formapau-
peris, while ho thought that he could claim redress as a
matter of simple justice. It appeared to him. that the
Hon. Gentleman had damaged has case, and had preju-
diced the interest of his constituents, by making
an appeal ad misericordiam in their favour.
The question at issue was, what is tit e law
of England upon the subject of poor-law taxa•
tion ? That taxation :rested on the 43d of ILFzabeth,
which enacted that every man should be called :apon to
support the poor in proportion to his ability. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary cf State for the
Home Department had attempted to show that Lord
Mansfield was of opinion that personal property did not
come within the operation of the statute. Bret Lord
Mansfield had merely asserted the impolicy, or the im-
practicability, of so extending the measure ; anti Lord
Kenyon, and the other judges of England, had declared
in the year 1795, that personal property, including stock
in trade, was liable to the poor-rate. That liability was
supposed in the preamble of tho very Act which
was passed each year for exempting stock in trade
from the rate. That latter Act was,the believed.. 'un-
just in principle and temporary in its character, while
the old law upon the subject was just and reaoomable.
The modern Act was only passed for a year, because
no Minister would venture to propose the permanent
operation of such a measure.—(Hear, hear.) Let it
be remembered that the charge& for lunatic asy-
lums and for the constabulary, the borough rate, the
hundred rate, and several other rates, had of late years
been added to the bur dens on real property. Now, it
seemed to him to be only just that personal property
should be made to bear its fair share of all these burdens
—(Hear, hear). But it was said that it would be impos-
sible to levy a rato upon personal property. Now, he
could not agree in that opinion, for he believed that the
raising of an income-tax clearly proved that a poor rate
Might be levied upon the profits of trade. Ho believed
that in such cases where there was a will there was a
way,
• and that the difficulties which were apprehended
is the matter would, if boldly grappled with, rapidly
disappear. But even if the Legislature and the Govern-
ment could Rut do justice to the agricultural interest in
that way, then he said that they were bound to offer them
compensation in some other form. He did not mean to
defend the different modes in which the Hon. Member
for Buckinghamshire proposed that they should receive
relief, because he was well aware of the force of the argu-
ment that a transference of many of those local charges to
the general taxation of the country would open the door
to abuse and to extravagant expenditure. There were other
changes, however, which might be made without aliability
to that objection, which he admitted to bo a valid one, fur
be believed that this country owed much of her great-
ness to her system of self-government and her municipal
institutions, and he should be sorry to see established
among us that centralisation, or that bureaucratic sys-
tem, which generally prevailed throughout the conti-
nent. But it appeared to him that the charge far lunatic
asylums, for gaols, for the constabulary, and several
others, could be transferred to the Consolidated Fund
without interfering with our system of local self-govern-
ment. He could not help. thinking that manufacturers
and fundbolders ought to
be made to contribute to tho
support of the poor and to other local burdens. Tbey
were as much interested as the agriculturists in the inter-
nal tranquillity of the country. If there should be a
disturbance in the manufacturing districts, it would not
be the land, but the mills and factories that
would be ondangered—(llear, hear)—and if there
should be an insurrection in -Lancashire or Yorkshire,
that would necessarily react on the Stock Exchange, and
create a fall in the value of the funds. The agricultural
interest had, therefore, a right to claim an alteration in
the present mode of rating property, or some equivalent
compensation if that alteration should bo found inexpe-
dient.—(Hear. hear.)
Mr. ANDERSON said he had given notice of an
amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck-
inghamshire, but he thought it better not to bring forward
that amendment, as it was, in his opinion, desirable that
the motion of the lion. Member should be considered
upon its own merits. He was happy to think that a
return to the protective system was at present impossible
in this country. lie had made as accurate an estimate
58 it was in his power to have made of the sum which the
inhabitants of these kingdoms had since the year 1815
paid for their corn in addition to its fair and natural
value, in consequence of the imposition of the corn-law;
and after estimating that value at the price in foreign
markets and the cost of freightage to this country, he
found that that sum amounted, at the lowest calcula-
tion, to 750,000,0001., or about the whole of our national
debt,

for the home market. He should be sorry to view this
question a; a class question; but if it were to be so
viewed he should stand by his own class, which was the
most important in the country.—(Hear, hear.) It the
match were to he all England on one side, and Lanca-
shire and Yorkshire on the other, he should play on the
side of all England, and not despair of success in spite of
the hard bitting of the Hon. Member for the West Riding
of Yorkshire, or the somewhat crooked bowling or the
lion. Member for )Manchester.—(A laugh.) The Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth expressed in 1840 his appre-
hension that the removal of protection would lead to
unfavourable results, as regarded not only the agri-
culturiets, but the classes identified with thorn
in interest. It was not t Hansardisee the Right Hon.
Baronet that he made that reference; but because in
then expressing the views ho (Mr. Seymer) now en ter-
tained, the Right Hon. Baronet stated the results of his
previous t xpsrience, answered the speeches he had since
made, and Tittered pre lietions which had since been ve-
rified. If the Right Hon. Baronet were present he
might ask, Had any one too much? No; many had not
enough, as any one might see from letters which had
appeercd in the Morning Chronicle. So much English
corn was displaced for foreign; and if so much Ea ;lisp
labour were displaced wages of the whole would be re -
(laced. The reason why so little seemed likely to be
done for relief of the distress was that it was spoken of
as temporary, because the price of corn was rising.
Honourable Members seemed afraid of their own
principles, for if they were to buy in the cheap-
est market the cheapest market could not be
too cheap; yet attempts were making on the Minis-
terial side of the House to show that prices would
rise. Why, these lion. Gentlemen ought to prove that
they would fall.—(Hear.) There were two sections on
thet side--the friends of agriculture, who tried to show
that this year was exceptional; and the Free-traders, who
thought it would not matter if not a blade of corn was
grown in the country. The argument drawn from the
poor-law returns was feflecious; it cost the farmers
less is employ labourers at low wages than to keep
them in the workhouse. Ile egreed with the propo'al
of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire in thinking
that tie establishment charges under the poor-law
should be transferred to general taxation. Ho knew
persons allied with Free-traders who said, if there woe
not a change for the better in agriculture they would be
prepared to consider the question.—(Elear' hear.) As
there was a desire to divide to-night, if possible, he
should detain the House further only to express his j
confidence that if they were to have no protection or re-
lief f.-urn local burdens, if Excise regulations inconsist-
ent with the first principles of free trade were conti-
nued, they would defeat Hon. Members on the other
side before the end of the session.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICE, while he could not think the Hon. Member
for Buckinghamshire expected the House to adopt his
motion, would nut have been prepared t-i object, had the
proposition bsen to appoint a Select Committee to in-
quire how far these local burdens might have been ad-
jutted so a; to give relief to the agricultural interest.
Had the lion. Member for Orkney (Mr. Anderson) per
slated in his amendment he should have moved an
amendment thereupon. [An HON. MEMBER—The two
Kings of Brentford.] As long as Hon. Gentlemen ad-
hered to the idea of protection they would get no relief
in any other way; till they had abandoned it the House
would not fairly consider the question.—(Cheers from
the Opposition.) Ho had always voted for an alteration
of the corn-laws with the lion. Member for Wolver-
hampton (Mr. Villiers), but had supported the motion
for a fixed duty, and thought a strait duty fir the pur-
pose of revenue would be an advantageous settlement of
the question. The farmers were in advance of Hon.
Members. He held in his hand resolutions of the Far-
mers' Club in the Isle of Thanet, stating thee in their
opinion the battle of protection had been fought and lost.
In lieu of protection they urged other measures of re-
lief, which were at least worthy of consideration. They
urged that the income-tax should be levied in a different
manner from what it was at present; that the parochial
and county rates should be levied on property and in-
come generally; that the duty should be taken off malt
and other similar articles, and placed on the import of
finch articles of agricultural 'manufacture as meal and
flour, end, lastly, they asked that the salaries in all
public departments should be reduced in a corresponding
degree with the price of provisions. Many of these pro-
positions be thought just, and all of them worthy of con-
sideration; but he rose chiefly to say that the agricul-
tural interest could have no claim to these advantages
until they had honestly abandoned all idea of a return
to protection. He wished to see all these questions
fairly considered on their merits; but he was act pre-
pared to vote for the very extensive measures of the
Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire. Instead of bringing
these matters forward in a single motion, he agreed
with the Right Hon. Baronet that they should have
occupied a series of resolutions.—(Hear.)
Sir J. TYRELL said, he was remarkably well satis-
fied with the speech which the Hon. Gentleman had just
thought proper to make—as well satisfied as the Hon.
Gentleman could possibly be himself—(A. laugh)—
giving the House all the advantage of the various argu-
ments he had made use of, and admitting, as he had
done, the justice of those, propositions which had been so
ably advanced by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Buckinghamshire. He did not know, however, that he
could gtve the Hon. Gentleman credit for great disin-
terestednees, considering the proximity of the Isla of
Thanet to the town of Dover, and the natural anxiety
which the Hon. Gentleman entertained with reference to
the future representation of that town.—(A laugh.) It
was true the farmers, as a body, had refused to petition
that House, agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman that
however just their claims they had little to expect from
Parliament. They did complain, however, of the great
disrespect with which their clahns had been treated by
the First Minist,'r of the Crown in the speech from the
Throne. The Noble Lord and his colleagues said they
had heard that certain landowners and occupiers of the
soil complained, and that was immediately followed by an
expression of satisfaction at the comforts which had been
enjoyed by the great mass of the community in consequence
of the extreme depression and great lowering of prices.
That seemed to him to be much the same sort of satis-
faction as a man enjoyed when he broke into the larder
and robbed the till.—(Great laughter.) The Right
Hon. Baronet had drawn a great picture of the prospe-
rity of the country arising from the diminution of the
poor-rates; but he (Sir J. Tyrell) would venture to say
that that diminution, of nearly 400,0001., had arisen en-
tirely from the circumstance of great economy and a
better management of the machinery of the poor-law,
and not from any other cause. The agricultural inte-
rest considered themselves deeply grieved in another
thing. An Honourable Gentleman of great ability had
been put forward to move the answer to the speech,
who, in his opinion, had been treated with somewhat of
neglect and injustice. The Government had brought
that Honourable Gentleman out, as one of the brightest
weapons in their armoury, finally to dispose of the
question before the House. And now, with the per-
mission of the Honourable Gentleman, he would cha-
racterise him as "the destroyer," and the Hon. Member
for the West Riding as " the divider of the spoil"—
(A laugh)—and he would make good that proposition.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Govt rnment
said some time ago, with the greatest triumph and con-
felence, " If it can be shown that the poor man pays is.,
or 23., or 3s. a week more for his bread than he would
otherwise pay, are you prepared to face that?" He (Sir
J. Tyrell) answered that with this proposition. If the
Hoe. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton, in
the receipt of 1,2001. a year—no sinecure, he admitted—
could cause that 1,2001. to be equal to 1,5001. or 1,6001,
he could quite understand the Hon. Gentleman's readi-
ness and preparation to face that —(A laugh.) That
proposition perfectly squared with his understanding.—
(Renewed laughter.) In his opinion the Hon. Members
for Wolverhampton and the West Riding ought at that
moment to be sitting on the Treasury bench aide by aide
with the Hon. Member for Westbury, and he should
like to know what offer had been made to the former of
those two Hon. Gentlemen with reference to the accep-
tation of office, for he could not believe that his merits
had been overlooked.—(A laugh.) He did know
that a proposition had been made to the Hon. Mem-
ber for the West Riding to take his seat on the Trea-
sury bench, and he knew the details of it. He (Sir
J. Tyrell) bad made that statement once before in that
House, and he hoped the Noble Lord would excuse him
for asking this slight interrogation, viz., whether ho did
not know that to be precisely the fact?—(Laughter.)
The Noble Lord smiled; but notwithstanding the num-
ber of years he had sat opposite to the Noble Lord, he
was unable now to say, from the indication of
his countenance, whether that slight interrogatory
was answered, and whether the Hon. Member bad been
offered office or not.—(Great laughter.) He would as-
sume, then, that silence gave consent. He would go still
further, and tell the House and the country—for it was
no breach of confidence—that a commissioner had been
sent from the Government to offer office to the Hon.
Member for the West Riding; and ho would tell the
House further the answer of the Hon. Member, for it
was an answer characterised by the sagacity and good
sense which generally distinguished the Hon. Gentleman
as a Member of that House. The Hon. Gentleman said,
" I can't accept office, because if I do my power with the
people is gone—l shall no longer have that power either
in the House or the coun try which I now have—my accept-
ance of office will altogether deprive me of that confi-
dence which I now enjoy."—(Hear. hear.) That was
in reality a great disadvantage to the agricultural in-
terest, because it enabled the Noble Lord, who traded
upon the opinions that from time to time filtered
through the Manchester Chamber, to say that he main-
tained the Government and the principles of the Consti-
tution, whilst he was not encumbered with any of those
inconvenient sentiment. which occasionally fell from the
Hon. Member for the West Riding, although they were
not given utterance to in such unmistakeable language
in that House as elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) But the
Iron. Member for the West Riding showed great saga-
city in his commercial manner of handling the question.
He (Sir J. Tyrol)) was at first not aware, that when the
Hon. Gentleman declined to accept office, he was in re-
ceipt of a reward of 70,0001., but seeing that he pocketed
the dividends arising from that sum, he admitted that
the least thing he could do was to acknowledge it in the
way he slid.—(Hear.) Afteralluding, amidst considerable
impatience to the inconsistency of the views enunciated
at the lets Russian loan meeting with the principles of
free trade, the Hon. Baronet proceeded to complain fleet
the speech or the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
of the Home Department, on the present occasion, was a
most unsatisfactory reply to the address of the Hon.
Member for Bucks. One part of it consisted of a reply
to a speech delivered by the Hon. Member for Bucking-
hamshire last year; another part consisted of the re-
production of the leader in that day's Morning Chroni-
cle—(Laughter)--and the remaining portion alone was
devoted to the address of his Hon. Friend that evening.
The Right Hon. Baronet had given the agriculturists
credit for possessing indomitable energy and perseve-
rance; and, by Heavens! they would use those quali-
ties to obtain that justice to which they felt themselves
entitled.—(Hear.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE considered the speech which had
just been delivered. as well as that of the Honour-

Mr. SEYMER, adverting to the indisposition of
Members on the Ministerial side to admit that agricul-
ture was in a depressed state, asked whether farmers
must break windows to show that they were distressed,
or talk treason to manifest their dissatisfaction ? The
farmers would take neither of those courses, for they
were proverbially a loyal body. Bat in the middle of
the nineteenth century loyalty was not likely to assume
a very romantic character. When a class found itself
,wending in the social scale the enthusiasm of its
loyalty was likely to suffer some abatement. This was
eznphatlealy a farmer's question, and he represented
the opinions of his constituents in advocating the M-
em. Tho Honourable Member for Manchester would,
perhaps, say that he (Mr. Seymer) represented only
6,000 stupid farmers, whilst he himself represented
12,000 enlightened manufacturers. But in the
United States the case was reversed, for there
the manufacturers were in favour of protection,
whilst the farmers wanted free trade. It was
not at all clear to his mind that the cotton spinners
had not made a bad:speculation in their free-trade move-
ment. On the other side of the Atlantic the same skill
and energy on which the cotton spinners here relied,
with coal and iron, and cotton grown on the spot, wore
to be found. With cheap labour the United States would
undersell the cotton spinners of this country, who would
then be very glad, though too late, to have protection

WEDNESDA Y yEVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1850

- - and by his successor since, how could any man of erdie
nary capacity and of common feeling dare to get up and
demand the re itoration of a system which had entailed
upon our poorer population such awful consequences as
the returns demonstrated?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman must not put his proposition as in some sense
a compensation for what the agricultural classes lost in
184$. The question was, whether his proposition was
in itself just and reasonable.—(Hear, hear.) The people
hi
in
Imioak se e.s severe
wayar;u:
never acquiesced in that corn-law; there was a Member
present who could recollect, probably, how he had to
hwtt
woundeohr .
0 )thet halt o ua swe
wast
being
r o u g h m
passed,ili t a r y
police and
from
ua it was said that ono gentleman dated his conversionih,eherreecewiveerde
beads
sle
whichgu
ardincgouthlde
only be penetrated by arguments strongly enforced.—
(" Ob, oh!") The Hon. Gentleman wanted to make out
that " the agricultural interest" was concerned in this
que,tion, and he raid that the interest of the landlord
t, g eu
end that of the tsnant must now be considered as one.
He and his friends played fast and loose about this; once
" the agricultural interest" was said to mean almost no-
body but tenant-farmers
—now it was e tl3 ,
ownersltu roaf
real
property that were to be benefited. Perhaps a man
would be claimed as belonging to h
terest" nrxt if he lived in the Haymarket
or Lincoln's
Inn-fields.—(4 Oh, oh!") The result of the Hon. Mem-
ber's proposal was to be to transfer 2,000,0001. of taxa-
tion now collected from land and buildings to the general
taxation of the country, much the largest portion of
which came from the great body of the people, and was
paid in taxes upon articles they consumed ; and so, if
(as ho said) the 2,000,000/. formed a burden upon laud,
the occupiers of the soil were to be able to add thus
much to the rental of the proprietors.—("Oh, oh !")
But was not the time gone by when Parliament would
listen to proposals for removing taxes front property and
placing them upon industry and consumption?— (Hear,
hear.) Taxes had now been taken off which certainly
in tunes of puree could never. again be imposed. Im-
posts upon imposts, and taxes upon consumption, hal
been found to be nut only net the most productive, but
to be destructive of the comforts of the people.—(Hear.)
The question was not Letween the land anti she towns,
for property in the latter would be at least equally re-
lieved by this scheme; but the question was between the
great owners cf property mid those who bad been called
the " Have-nothings," and who with this system of aegis.
Ming would harts ~othing to the (nil of titne.—(Cries
of " Oh, oh !") He would ask Hon. Members opposite,
" In what way do you intend to satisfy the clamour you
excited or participated in during the recess r—
(Cheers and counter cheers.) Oh he (Mr. Bright)
eat not " the farmer's friend "—(lronical cheers)—lie
made no pretensions to the character, thouch in that
tiliseootiund,
House and out of it he would stand up f.e, whatever was
just to the fanner.—(Cries of Oh. oh!" frets the Pro-
ri
oexi,ot:ti)ngßollhoeurwoi
juildthne countryotcome o
to thate ground
that the
that ho was about to relieve the farming and occonying
classes, and makes proposition which a child of five
years old Almost could discover had no reference to the
it t .rests of the occupier, but was solely directed to
supporting the interests of the lendlord.—(Llear, hear.)
The Right': Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) stated 45
per coat. of the whole poor-rate was all that was pai4
lay the land, the whole of which was not paid by agri-
cultural laud ; so that all the relief the Honouta
Geld, Oman's (Mr. Disraeli's) proposition could give
would he 45 per cent. to landlords, tenants, and occu-
pier!. He hould like to have it defined how much
of that would remain in the pockets of the occupying
t•mants in the farming districts.—(Hear, hear.) But the
Chancellor of the Exchequer must continue on the
farmer the taxes on t-a, sugar, coffee. tobacco,
spirits, and malt, if the series of propositions the Hon.
Gentleman threatened Ceat with should be suceosslut,
and the great burden of the rates were to be trens-
fsrred from real property to industry and articles of
consumption. The farmers were h avieg their eyes
uTeied by these discussions.—(llear.) A few days Iwo
there had teen a proposition for a County•rates Bill, at
it had met with no favour from H Gentlemen oppe-
site.—(" Oh, oh.") In a short time it would be his duty to
ask the House for the abolition or modification of the
law which encouraged the preservation of game.—
(Ironical cheering.) It would then be seen if those who
called themselves the farmers' friends would be ready to
apply that great and just principle to a practical griev-
ance which pressed more heavily on the farmers than the
poor-law union.—(" Oh, oh.") He should be delighted,
too, if the farmers' friends gave a hearty support to the
Tenants' Compensation Bill. If landlords were wise
they would take another course. He was sorry, for
more reasons than one, he was not a landed proprietor.
It he was be would say to his landed brethren, that if
trade was prosperous and manufactures increasing—if
employment was more permanent and became at once
steady and remunerative to the labourer—if the list
of criminals was anntrillydecreasiag—if the return of the
Poor-law Commissioners showed that thousands and
thousands of mea, women, and children had been
dragged out of the mire of pauperism, and placed in an
independent and comfortable position, and if all those
advantages could be presumed t 3 flow from the free-
trade policy, as he verily believed, then the position of
a landed proprietor in England was the most fortunate
and happiest in the country, for as trade extended so
would competition increase for land, for agricultural, ma-
nufacturing, and building purposes, as well as for enjoy.
meat and pleasure, and while the popel ttion improved,
how great would bo his security fur the enjoyment of
the possescions with which Providence had blessed him!
—(Cries of " Oh, oh !") To come to the Reuse and
make an appeal for compensation on account of the
abolition of the correlsws was white they would not have
does if they had known what was best for their interests.
Oh, oh!") Other trades would now come and speak
of depreciation of capital, which had never sought for
compensation before. lion. Gentlemen opposite bad
!tiled in that House in past times with undisputed sway.
On their county hustings they had told the farmers that
they went to Parliament to maintain agricultural proa•
petity and remunerating prices of core. He begged of
them, if they were sensible men, to got rid of all those
delusions—(" Oh, oh!")—and not to let their children
and great grandchildren read, as read they would, with
astonishment the speeches they had made.—(Loud
cheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") He was convinced the
proposition before them had not in the slightest degree
any element of benefit, improvement, or even of restitu-
tion to the tenant-farmer, and he would not be a party
to a transfer of the taxation on a class not so heavily
taxed as in other countries, or to a course which would
reverse the policy they had been pursuing for the last
seven years, with consequences, as he believed, most ad-
vantageous to our population and tending to increase the
value of every institution in the kingdom.—(Hear.)
Mr. 11. DRUMMOND said it would require greater
powers of mystification than those of the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Bright), or even the Honourable Gentleman
who had introduced the debate, to persuade the farmers
they were not suffering distress. The Honourable
Gentleman was greatly mistaken if he supposed
ho (Mr. Drummond) had ever, directly or indirectly,
encouraged the farmers to hope for a reversal
of the past policy of the House. Many years since he
had declared, the moment peace was established it would
be impossible to keep up prices at a higher average than
prices on the continent. But, though the farmers felt
themselves deeply aggrieved, he had never used his little
influence to excite them. They felt they had been be-
trayed by the men in whom they trusted, and they had
felt deeply the injustice of being made the means of ele-
vating a faction into power, who then kicked down the
useless marchepied. They called conduct of that sort
treachery—(Hear, hoar)—and be heard their language
with regret ; and while many of those to whom it was
applied were his friends, he could not but be sorry to
see a body of able men condemned, however justly,
to political infamy.—(Hear, hear.) By their acts
those who had heavy fines for church lands, within
two years of that change, had been distinctly de-
frauded.—(Cheers.) This was not the first time large
bodies of the people had come to the doors of the House
as suppliants proclaiming their distress, but it certainly
was the first time, to his knowledge, that they had
been treated with indifference—(Cheers)—and their
statements of distress distinctly contradicted, as if they
were not the only judges of the fact.—(Cheers.) He
could not help contrasting the way in which the manu-
facturing and trading interests were treated when they
were whining suppliants.—(Loud cheers.) Had they
been sneered at or mocked? Had they been laughed
at for not understanding chymistry?—(Cheers.) The
counsel of the Hon. Member for the West Riding
amounted to this—that the present race of farmers
should try agricultural experiments, that they should
pass into the workhouse, and then let a happier and
more enlightened lot of men succeed them.—(Laughter.)
But was it not notorious that not a single English
manufacturer had ever made a single useful discovery
in the arts?—(Cheers and laughter.) They bad, to be
sure the Manchester shool, with its peculiar doctrines.
Did any one ever hear of a Lavoisier or a Fourcroy in
Manchester?—(Laughter.) Could they quote the name of
one manufacturer who had written on the scientific
principles of his business?—(Hear.) No; it was notori-
ous to this day these Manchester manufacturers knew
no more of the chemical nature of their dyes
ted.
and
pigments than the blocks on which_ thadey
—(Loud cheers and laughter.)
taken pity on their dense stupidity
of their
they confessed that nothing but an
the cheapnessd vulgarity when
HnowterethepHouse
wares enabled them to find a market, for that there was
Europe who would prefer the better
d more beautiful manufacture of France, or even
not a man in not
taste an
House established a school of design--(Hear.
of the Chinese 2—(Cheers and laughter.) In mercy to
them the
hear)—but so little had they been able to profit by it
that the last report stated they drew as bad as ever.--
(Laughter.) What he always said was, that free trade
involved, not merely a class question but a national
question, and that the real matter at issue was not how
to have corn cheap, but how to preserve equality of prices
during years to come.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it would
be found, on reference to the House of Lords' report,
that in Dantzic, the port through which a greater
amount of corn passed than any other, there had been
the greatest amount of fluctuation. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had given a moat satisfactory account of
trade and manufacture, but he had not stated how much
we had paid for it.--(Hear, hear.) It was forgotten that
by their system the kelp had been destroyed, and that
they had created the distress in the north-west of Scot-
land, and had aggravated it in the north-west of Ireland;
that they had destroyed half the value of the timber
of England, half the value of bark, and that now they
bee destroyed one-half of the capital of all the tenant-
farmers in the country, for they had reduced wheat from
80s. to 40s. a quarter. The necessary consequence was
that every tenant who had been farming with borrowed
1
capital mutt fail, and every landed estate that was
mortgaged must be sold.—(Heate hear.) This was the
end at which Hon. Gentlemen opposite had been driving,
and why, when they had accomplished their object, did
they not admit it? He would venture to say that the
amount of property that had beet) destroyed by their
policy was at least equal to that which they said it had
increased. He contended that the system supported by
Lion. Gentlemen, opposite had boa a optima pf clue

able Member for East Lothian (Mr. Charteris) to
be singularly illogical. He went along with these
gentlemen when they asserted the inequality of the
local taxation of the country, and also who,' they mails-
taMed that land and real property were burdened to a
greater extent than any other species of property; but
he denied that a re-establishment of the mush-befludeil
Act, the 43d of Elizebeth, would remedy the evil--the
inequalities which existed under that Act being almost
as great as those which existed at present.—(Hear,
hear.) Neither could he imagine that the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was at all
calculated to mend the matter.—(Hear, hear.) That
Hon. Member proposed that from 12,000,0004 of local
taxation they should deduct 2,000,0001., and leave the
other 10,000,0001. to be assessed in the same unequal
manner as at present. He (Mr. flobhouse) confessed
he could not see much relief in that. Ho feared, in-
deed, that it was impossible from the nature of things
to assess property with perfect equality under any sys-
tem whatever, and that it was necessary to overlook
some inconsistencies for the sake of the general good.
The Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Tyrell) had attributed the
reduction in the poor-law expenditure to the diminution
which had occurred in the cost of provisions; but, if
the [lon. Baronet would take the trouble to consult
the last report of the Poor-law Board, be would find
that there was also a considerable diminution of the
number of paupers.—(Hear, -hear.) The Honourable
Member for Buckinghamshire had claimed a certain
amount of exemption for the agriculturists, on the
ground of the peculiar taxation to which they were ex-
posed. The fact was, however, that upon this very plea
they had been relieved from 6,000,0001. of taxation since
1815.—(near, hear.) The Hon. Member had also said
that the existing distress among the agrioulturel classes
had been strangely coincident with the recent chanzes
in our commercial legislation. He (Hr. Hobhouse) did
not deny that it had been so; but he asked the agricul-
turists, in a spirit of perfect fairness, whether an equal
amount of distress had not often occurred during the
period of proteetion?—(llear, hear.) Believing that tyre
proposal r f the Hon. Gentleman would tend to the ad-
vantage of the landlord alone, and not to that of the te-
nant or labourer, and being confident that it would re-
more none of the inequalities complaine I of, he should,
as the representative of the caeital of an important seri-
cultaral district, vote against it without the slightest dis-
trust or hesitation.—(llear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said, that because the Hon.
Gentleman did not conceive this measure calculated to
remove a'l the disarms complained of, that was no re:-
son why he should not assent to it as calculated to re-
move a portion of that diette ma. Until he heard ile
erech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he had
imagined that no man who admitted the distress of the
agricultural interest—and who eat there in the House
that did not admit it?—would refuse to adopt the rea-
soneble and practicahle proposition of his Hon. Friend,
exempt as that proposition was from any tendency to
inflict injustice upon any class.—(Bear, heir.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman indeed eon:tied disposed to gloss
over the existence of that distress by certain assuner-
tions as to the diminution of pauperism and of crime;
but the test he suggested seemed of a rather fallacious
character. The Right Hon. Gentleman, for exam's', ,
contrasted the state of crime in 1813, the exceptional
year of manufacturing digress, with the state of crime
in 1849, a year—he feared not the exceptional year—of
agricultural distress. Now, the logical inference to be
drawn, if any were to be drawn at all from this compari-
son, tens, that, the rgricultural community under enffer-
ing and privation was less turbulent and less disposed
to crime than the manufacturing population.—(Hear.)
The Right lion. Baronet further argued that pau-
perism haddicuieished, yet the last returns presentei to
the Reuse showed the Poor-law Commissioners painting
in very gloomy colours the prefeet condition and future
condition of the agricultural labourers. The Right
Hon. Barorce, seemed to say thet in the northern
counties of Enght id agricultural distress was compara-
tive unknown; now he imaeined that Durham was an
agricultural county. [Sir G. GREY—No; it is a mining
county.] And in that county ho found a marked ie.
crease of pauperism.—(Elear, hear.) The Right 11on.
Baronet seemed much ditTo.ed to turn the attention
of the House to some other point, but the
practical manner in which the House should legislate on
this subject was to keee to one thing at a time, and he
had heard no one argument on this occasion wily the one
thing proposed by his Hon. Friend should not be kept to
until it was effected. It had been urged as an objection
that in 1813 the poor-rate was higher than in 1849; but
it had been precisely one of the arguments against that
system in force in 1813, that wages were constantly paid
out of the allowance fund. It was always put
forward that the Manchester gentlemen desired
no immunity for any class; he called upon the
Manchester gentlemen, then, to support this motion,
which went to remedy great national distress without in-
flicting any injustice upon any particular class of the
community, fir he couridered it no injustice that fund-
holders, mortgagees, annuitants, and others who had
been hitherto exempt from this most legitimate liability
should be brought within the scope of so essentially na-
tional a taxation.—(Heir, hear.) If the manufacturers
were sincere in their professions, if they really desired
no immunity for any ease, they must of necessity vote
with his Hon. Friend. All that was proposed was to
carry out the principle laid down in 1845 by the Right
Hon. Member for Tamworth, that property, of whatever
description, personal alike with real, ought to bear Ls
fair proportion of local taxation, so that the burden
might bejustly distributed.—(Hear, hear.) They were
seeking to carry out this principle in no spirit of injus-
tice to any particular class, iu no spirit of hostility to
the Government, but in a spirit which should command
for the resolution of his Hon. Friend the sympathy and
approbation of all candid and imFartial 'Hon.—(f.lo3r,
hear.) It was not meant for a moment that the reso-
lution was proposed as representing the full debt of
justice due to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.)
All that was contemplated by it was, the mitigation
of the great and grievous injustice which now op-
pressed that interest with most unequal burdens.—
(Hear, hear.) As an example of this, he would men-
tion that in a manufacturing township near Leicester,
composed of 978 inhabitants, of whom not above 100
were engaged in agriculture, there was a farm of 241
acres, which contributed to the poor-rates of the parish,
in six years, no less a sum than 6151. 145., or more
than 100 per annum, being at the rate of Bs. Gd. per
annum per acre, the rate being applied to the relief, not
of the 100 agriculturists, but to the relief of the whole
population. Casting himself across the Channel, he saw
the agricultural interest in a most oppressed condition
owing, in a very great measure, to unequal burdens.
Now, his Hon. Friend's proposition would relieve agri-
culture in Ireland to the enormous extent of 500,0001,
per annum. Year after year the English Members of
that House had been called upon for large payments to
enable the Irish poor-law to work; and year after year
the same demand would be renewed unless the views of
his Honourable Friend were adopted. Most heartily
therefore, as an English Member, did he support these
views, because he conssidered them calculated to re

!Love agricultural burdens, and to extend agricultural
employment.—(Hear, hear.) A good deal had been
said about the casual poor, or what we commonly call in
England" vagrants.' He particularly desired to know
how much longer these vagrants, making their way about
the country, were to be saddled on the funds of the
parish in which the relieving officer happened to reside
instead of upon the funds of the union.—(Hear.) Cap-
tain Robertson, in his most able report, insisted upon
the absolute necessity of action upon this subject. The
Noble Lord said, in conclusion, he supported, and with-
out any misgivings of the future result, the course taken
by his Hon. Friend, because it was the course of honour
and of justice, because ho believed it to be practicable,
and because ho was convinced that, by one common
justice, it would redress the common injustice which had
been inflicted on the agriculture of the United King-
dom.—(Einar.)
Mr. BRIGHT said, that certainly the speech of the
Honourable Member for Buckinghamshire was of a
somewhat more practical character than usual, with less
tendency to mystify the House and the country; but
still he could not refrain from expressing his strong belief
that both the House and the country would soon dis-
cover that the grounds on which the Honourable Gentle-
man based his proposition were altogether untenable.
The Honourable Gentleman's speech was based chiefly
on the fact which many gentlemen seemed disposed to
admit, without question, that there prevailed through-
out the country a very alarming amount of agricultural
distress, and that in some way or other this proposition
was intended as a compensation for the loss of the corn-
law; and that, while giving great advantage to the class
which the Honourable Gentleman peculiarly advocated,
it would not operate unjustly upon the other classes of
the community. He (Mr. Bright) was not disposed to
admit without question that there existed this great
agricultural distress that had been talked of. He him-
self knew, and he was sure there was scarcely a gentle-
man in the House who did not know, that there were
cases of tenant-farmers who during this very year
were carrying on their agricultural operations,
not only not with a loss, but absolutely with a
profit.—(Laughter, and cries of " No, no!" from
the Protectionists.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Disraeli), who had not stated one well-authenticated
case in which the fee of land bad been depre-
ciated in value, or the rent permanently lowered, said
that the farmers, with 300,000,0001. engaged in the cul-
tivation of the soil, were cultivating it without profit,
and that the fee of the land had lessened in value. Ho
(Mr. Bright) was disposed for the most part to dispute
it; but, admitting it, for the sake of argument, bad the
Hon. Member never cast his eye over the condition of
other kinds of property during the last four years—the
condition of the mining districts, the iron manufacturing
interest, the condition of the owners of mills in all our
great staple manufactures? Had he inquired whether
the selling price of houses in towns was as high now, or
had been for the last three years,
as it was previously?
Had he never cast his eye over the shsre list? and, with
regard to the railway interest, let him remember that
the poor-rates of the 3,000 parishes in England
theth rouh
which railways passed were but 800,0001., and
rail-
ways paid 250,000/. of it.—(Hear, bear.) The llcn.
Gentleman said he hed not asked for more recent poor-
law returns because of the trouble it would give to pre-
parerr i re entdusrnws e or e
likely ever at any future f
t
them; but neither he nor any
to mofovheistof
poor-rate with the view of proving the distress of the
Puntry, and thereupon ba-ing any application to the
House tor a return to the protective system, or rt
transfer of rates from what he called real property to
the ordinary taxation of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.)
The last speaker, indeed, doubted whether the Home
Secretary was right as to pauperism and crime, and
whether the price of food had so much influence in the
matter; but he would find that the commitments in
England rose from 20,600 in 1836, when prices were low,
to 32,000 in 1842, which was the termination f some
years of high prices, and after that (with falling prices
of food) declined again till the fall was checked in 1847,
when the price of food was such as " to remunerate the
farmers and landed proprietors."—(" Oh!") In the face
of the facts brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Ripon (Sir, J. Graham) when, ia office,