The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-20 00:00:00

Mr. eIitiDTONE did hot think-it would be difficult
to showl 'the Hous'e 'sufficient reason, for refiising the-
motion. Whether he' should' be- able to answer the
}knowable Qentleman •to his own satisfaction,
he 'did:- not 'ithoWi for he did- not , quite under-
stand the terms :of: the motion. -He thought he
could:Satisfy the Houte that the motion ought not to be
conceded; and that without, disputing or even- referring
to a great Many 'of the lien. Gentleman's statements.
The Hen. Gentleman had alluded to the-negotiations
which had taken place between Great Britain- and other
countries. Now, he (Mr. Gladstone) did not think
it necessary to enter with him (Mr. B-.) into the policy
of these negotiations: He did not think it necessary,
becauie if he agreed with him that all these were use-
less, still he had not made out a case for a motion so
broad as this: The Gentleman last year brought
forward a motion That it was neither useful nor expedient
tb iiitiVeoininercial treaties ; but this motion was still
larger,-as' it would go to declare; abstractly and without
cond4tion, •:that this GoVerninent ought never to -enter
into crratigements respecting tariffs with other countriest
It would declare that no two countries could .enter into
any arrangeinents involving questions of trade. He
thanked the lion. Gentleman, however, on the part of
his Right Bon. Friend for-the high opinion he had ex-
:pressed of him and which he believed to be deserved,
and for - the- extreme charity of his judgment.
;The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ricardo) in speaking of
'Brazil had ventured- tciSay; that the proceedings of, this
country in the attempted' negotiation with Brazil were
absurd. '

Mr. RICARDO---No, I said preposterous.--(A laugh.)
'Mr: GLAIiSTONE--Well, preposterous. He . said
that nothing could be more preposterous than that on
the part Of. Brazil duties on certain articles, to the
amount of only 40 percent. ShoUld- be charged, whilst
in our tariff we charged 300 per cent.. on some of the
articles coming Brazil. Nbw, did the Hon. Member
think that this was a fair representation of the case ?
Why it was only the other evening that he (Mr. Glad-
stone), when discussing another questiOni had been called
upon to "shoW that. the. 40 per cent. ditties of the Bra-
zilians were-'imposed- not for the objects of revenue, but
for the avowed purpose of raisingup A protective system.
Surely that was a very different matter. .
. Mr. RICARDO-.—lt comes to just the same thing.
' Mr: GLADSTONE then did not understand the sub-
ject at all,--he kneW not the distinction between duties
laid on for `revenue and duties laid on for protection.
Howeier, that was a matter into which he would not
further enter. The "Han:-Gentleman • had - adverted to
the case' f Spain, and to the failure of every attempt to
effect a commercial negotiation with that -country. He
did not at all-WiSh to -disguise the partienlar objections
which lay in the way of these negotiations. But. he
ought to have taken into his view all the special circum-
stances whieh'affeeted Spain, and the difficulties which
this Government 'had to encounter in a country where
'Government, at the' best of ,times weak, had lately
become, poWerless,' 'as, unfortunately, recent events
had but too - clearly proved.--:(Hear, hear.) The'
Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the case of America,
and had said that one of the .clauses of Lord Ashbar-
ton's treaty was likely to produce the worst effects; that
was a question that he would not now go into, but he
thought that the Hon:, Gentleman had given a wrong
interpretation of the clause he had alluded to with re-
spect to 'the State of Maine. 'The opinion he had formed
On one of the chases -was 'entirely groundless; so also
with reSpect to rice... With respect to Maine the privi-
lege, given to -it was One that had been given by treaties.
he Hon. Gentleman appeared to think it unreasonable
• at they should stickle with the diities that had been
t on by Portugal on goods the produce. of this country,
`While they -were placing •a duty of 30 or 40 per cent.
n the products of that edentry: Nor for his own part he
'thought there was no comparison between the two cases.
He Would not denY that there• were great difficulties
connected with' the subject. The .uncertainty itself was
a great evil. The delay was an evil.—(Cheers.) He
- Would not deny that, in certain cases, , negotiations
Of this nature, might-,give rise to hostile ,feelings. The
negetiators might be apt to 'over-estimate the advan-
tages which they . themselves offered, and to under-esti-
mate the advantages offered by others. He admitted
that inconveniences might attend negotiations of this
natare, and therefore he admitted that negotiations for
ommereial treaties ought not to be undertaken without
one"- prospect of their being brought to a suecess-
eV termination. He had no desire, to underrate
he :practical, difficulties of the subject, but the
uestion really 'raised .by the Honourable Gentleman
iiiieeit:
git%itasTileVdb: conie
tonivaernetaittgleutrse?atießs,
Because
eder
if any
t
ere possible to form an advantageous commercial
trosenealifeyrif,,i.iiont
,p 3-
g.
t 0 worldtaking
t ib resolution.;
advantageoosi t
i,t
tunwisejol.7 fi
gnoulctvhh, the
taHheo circumstance,ut
rsee
treaty
oy precludei j,
bhye
razils was anadvaetageous treaty. He admitted that
he treaty Was-in one respect an
.illustration of the ar-.
umeat of the Honourable Gentleman, because in later
ears it. hid tended ,to create a belief among the Bra-
ilians that they had, been. unjustly dealt. with. No
oubt in , that treaty, political countenance and encou-
agement had been exchanged for commercial. Oven-
ages, and when that pOlitiCal countenance was no longer
ecessary, those who had, to: pay for if, in the shape of
ommercial advantageS, felt, no doubt "a:degree- of 'sore-
esa. : The Hon.. Gentleman Said, that the trade with'
ussia was as great as that, with the Brazils.- He de-
ix
b, v
,rii:e
a::
,or.
ylitti that ,
,jlwkt
,34a.3ixasra such7:j.., 1
,p-:
.mwkopahia
had
.t 94
vht the. Population;
populationcase.;niai
.nii.otfi limitation
sixtye.iboo uunts .O millions.i
oneotf
f duty
h is ttuold:
imn recollectedtbihtieThlieeho2s;ratani
whileiqi.ufiiaißrazilian
n...
urerso(this country. The 114 n. Gentleman had referred
;to the 'Commercial treaty with France, in 1787. Now,
frhat was an ,example of a, good commercial treaty.
o wished . to. draw a distinction bet Ween occasional
tides, and an indiscriminate system .of commercialduties. He hoped that the present Government, 'And
'those who might in future -govern, -would profit by ex-
iperience, and give to commercial treaties net mere than
theil' due Weight ;: butthatneed: not preclude the possi-
bility of making' any .treaties.. The question was, wile,-
ther abstract 'propositions in commercial matters were
the'niosticorivenient forms for 'expressing the opinion of
legislative bodies upon them. Instead of Allowing eir-
enniStandes their due'Weight, -they Were•called- on- to-tie
up their hands,_and put it out of their power to legislate
at all. 'The Don. Menabertalked of the spinning-jenny
andltetirit:.engine being- abstract propositions'; he- was
int Aware, that either of them made their way into this
world as atstraCt propositions. He thought-they Were
thereiult of labour and invention, perfected by men who
sVidied,itfdrolloWed Nature;' according the guide of cir-
le'filu ibtAiic'et • 'Thatwas the principle on which he should
I wish to proceed„ The. doctrine sought .to be laid down
j extended to altdontinercial 'treaties. He denied that no
Cake. bUilld arise in _which it might not be desirable to
Make a remission 'of revenue duty, without depending on
the-0441041g Of doheesSionsMade. by -foreign Powers.
The. Hen. Gentleman appeared to assume that because,
aS'he'stiiiii he'would gain•his resultin another shape; as
in :tini'eaSe of ItYSsia, from the shape in'which it would
be obtained in the ease
.of India or Atnericii, that there',
forelt was 0, perfect 'Matter 'Of indifference in what shape
iC.v4S:.Obiaiiied.' 'He- (Mr. Gladstone) admitted that the
trade Witliltntsia 'stag benefitial: to the country; but that
it weald.be more beneficial if their tariff, instead of being
ahnost :restrictive, Was 'Mere liberal. It was a great
Mistake- to exclude froth . their view the purposes, for
which the 'commercial' treaties had been completed. ' The
,
Methuentrehty wag' a ease' in which the manifest result
was, that. theY,paid in hard money fer real or supposed
.polificar advantages. The treaties entered 'into during
the last two years • had not - been entered ' into
with a view Of establishing permanent Systems of ,dif-
ferektial duty. It; had always been plainly avowed that
.~
~
the reductions WOurct be ' extended' to other countries.
Thu negotiation with France five or six years ago was
net,Undertalien Merely with reference to Sheffield and
woolleii.oods. '.He believed the object was to break
dowiiAhe System. Let them watch the use 'of the
' means AS much as they
.pleased, but let them' not take
_froni.,:the Government the ' means 'of doing what, -in
giVen. cireunistances, would be a' pewerful instrument in
-producing 'a favourable change in commercial legisla-
tion.UnTeSS the Hon. Gentleman 'could- show that it
was-immaterial to this country whether other countries
with which we dealt shOuld have prohibitive system's or
not--;utileis lie could show that' the treaty with Brazil
had been injurious to our' trade,' and that the-treaty en-
tered into with • France had, been injurious---he hadno
right' to 'call on tho Ileuse; in language perfectly Clear
and 'perspicuOus, 'to' affirm' each and every ono of
those, propositions . which ,he , (Mr. - Gladstone)
had MetitiOned.. ' Ile, therefore, - called on the
House.., to reject ' the motion, and to- affirm
theprineiples of romnion sense, that .if a commercial
treaty was to be attended' plainly 'with advantage
.it
,shouldnot be refused in, consequence of the Hon. Gen',
tleinin's prkinsition. He again called on the Honie to
,reject the motion, and not to tie up their handii fur -the
future', and shut -the country out froni.the'possibilily of
availing itself 'of' advantages which might hereafter
offer: -.. . . , ,_ ~
Lord HOWICK '..liacibeard with satisfaction much of
what had been saidby.the Right Hon. Gentleman. His
„Hun.. Friend 'Who made the motion 44 not more clearly
ihowthe impolicy and inconvenience -of those negotia-
tions than the . Right"-1
-ion.-: Gentleman himself.—
(OheerS.) : The Eight Hon. Gentleman had expressed,
with -gre.ater. . force and
.conciseness than he (Lord
I-leirieltOuld'atterript that inconvenience and impolicy.
The only 64jection. which the Right' Ron.' Gentleinan
alleged-to the motion, and. in which he' called .on the
House to reject, Was that there was. a 'probabiliti that a
case might ariSe. When it would be .desirable to enter
inte.a lapgo4ttion.47(Hear„) Ile' (Lord Howick) con-
fessedihat fie wa`s altonished to heir the lion. Gentle-
,,armagn4+3,ol3ol.*itO.atihnviadss-
nut be'
on the grioabittni
abstract 0ne,,,-tHear;' hear.) '. Worild 'the- Right' lion.
Gentlem-aninform him howanything. could be less ab-
stract than .this : that the 'House in the exercise of its
oonstitutionarNight should address the Queen, praying
Phpr..,taexercise,her prerogative in acertain manner, and
`to statl. the reaions, why they asked her to do so ? They
knew- that the Government entered into negotiations with-
out the:Honse having any control; and then they 'called
upon the House to give ' their sanction to what had been
done. What then could be moreproper—what less abstraet
-than that .the House. should address the Queen. on this
snbject, and. state their. reasons for doing -So.-. It Was.
the common, the:proper, and the constitutional course.
forthattloloai espconsidertr q:jur.
p:,
~,ifN.no,t:
iri
t. a
i-
kus
ttlilh:icieaissid:tioetaibt
.- ijtbl isssee:toci-ei::;4ll7stltr,hioapiieuidruirresiipi,eilie6cetede!.
p621.1g.,
y.oimptq'
e?igr!
ohoo.Btottlit‘hinei
theeTi
present
i,oeti
II:
shinen
li her
9e49.4°n? ' Ile
(Lord
ii("vlek)
gfi:rea°:l,:oe'tdihwitteoaitchsapcalior)trmal)elci.ovpaPtt.uetaacwrtgrrajoeedss.t.l rhiliet:ne_
741tajulillisalug17.1th°reYfir't:bleCgislation. In the abstract—that was in
,their: language7;--they- Were free-traders ; ' but in their'
..,-ot,e, they were Complete restrictienistS. Hon, Gen-
. I.lP.pirri---cnii
.3. i
eusi
7. - ; 0
rn o s,, Lt e 7
n,,
.i'sfrvtil.eese.,l-iiir4 P.srainiStrtlile:y ttGtoe
in the. dearest market.:
buy in the cheapest au, : 9 .`e -
Though this was their ieitiii;A:gc!Fk-InliiiltY.6lWifitlV,irj
best to encumber the trade 0 the vw"—Y /4 —e
2.-