The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

TUE QUEEN v. BAIINANDGREGORY.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 12.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
DISSENTERS' CHAPELS BILL.

Mr. VlVlAN__Fesented petitions against this Bill.
Lord C. MANNERS presented similar petitions
from Leicestershire.
Mr. EVANS also_ presented similar petitions.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY presented petitions in
favour of the Bill from Limerick.
Lord INGESTRE presented petitions against the
Bill from Staffordshire.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from
Birmingham against the Bank Charter Bill.
Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from the
sawyers of Edinburgh, praying for a tax on machinery.
Lord C. MANNER'S presented petitions from
Leicestershire, in favour of protection to agriculture.
Lord INGESTRE presented similar petitions
from Staffordshire.
Sir J. WALSH presented petitions against the
Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
Mr. T. EGERTON presented similar petitions
from Royton.
Lord ASHLEY presented petitions from Belfast
against the Dissenters' Chapels Bill.
Mr. GODSON postponed the Appeal in Cri-
minal Cases Bill for a fortnight.
DETACHED PARTS OF COUNTIES BILL.
Mr. SCOTT moved that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee on the Detached Parts of
Counties Bill.
Mr. BARNEBY moved that the Bill should be
committed that six months.
After a few words from Mr. SCOTT and Mr. M.
SUTTON, the amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill
was ordered to be sent to a Select Committee up stairs.
ALIENS BILL.

On the motion of Mr. II TT, the above Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on
the 26th instant.
SMOKE PROHIBITION BILL.
_ _ _ _ _ . ____

On the motion of Mr. MACKINNON, the House
went into Committee on this Bill pro forma, when it
was ordered to be re-committed on the 26th inst.
COUNTY CORONERS' BILL.

The report on the County Coroners' Bill was brought
up and received.
INCENDIARY FIRES IN SUFFOLK.
On the motion for reading the order of the day for
the adjourned debate on the Established Church of
Ireland being put,
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said he wished to put a
question to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
of State for the Home Department in reference to a
subject of considerable importance in that part of the
country with which he was connected—the county
of Suffolk. He alluded to the alarming spread of in-
cendiary fires in Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex. He had
received many communications on the subject, and if
he were to attempt to enumerate the different fires
which had taken place in those counties since Mi-
chaelmas, the sum total would astonish the Members
of that House. The subject was creating great
anxiety, and he might almost say dismay in those
counties. He was himself a magistrate of Suffolk,
and had many opportunities of forming some estimate
of the character of the labouring classes in that
county; and it was his firm belief, that generally the
labourers of that county were a well disposed and in-
Austrious class, and he believed they would shrink
with horror from such a crime as that of incendiarism;
and he believed that the occupying tenants and the
landowners generally were -actuated by feelings
of kindness towards the labouring classes, and he
could enumerate many cases in which individuals
had taken steps to ameliorate their condition by
granting them allotments. Notwithstanding this,
they had the alarming fact before them that in-
cendiarism to a large extent existed. Having
stated the grounds of the question, what he wanted
to know from the Right Honourable Gentleman
was, whether the subject of incendiarism in those
counties had occupied the full and serious attention of
her Majesty's Government.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that with regard to the
statement with which the Hon. Gentleman prefaced
his question, he was happy to say from the inquiries
he made into the subject, that he concurred in the
praise the Honourable Gentleman had bestowed on
the gentry, tenants, and labourers of the county
of which the Hon. Gentleman was a magistrate.
He was also prepared to admit that incendiarism pre-
vailed to a deplorable extent throughout a portion
of the county of Suffolk and the adjacent parts of
Essex, and throughout the county of Norfolk. He
had already answered the queE•tion put to him by the
Hon. Gentleman, by stating that this painful subject
had occupied the serious attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government. It had been his duty to confer
with the lord-lieutenants and magistrates of those
counties, and every effort had been made by her Ma-
jesty's Government, as he had stated on a former oc-
casion, to detect the perpetrators of this dreadful
crime. Many fires might easily be the work of one
incendiary.---(Hear, hear.) The character which
the lion. Gentleman had so justly given of the labour-
ing classes of that district, precluded the supposition
that any considerable portion of the peasantry had
been concerned in these fires. He thought they
were the work of very few individuals,
who were probably actuated by personal
motives. He assured the Hon. Gentleman that if the
guilty parties were detected, the law should be put
into execution with the least possible delay.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman whether, in the course of his inquiries on
the subject, he had been led to the conclusion that the
reckless spirit which had induced men to set
fire to premises might be induced by a pres-
sure of distress over which individuals had no
control; and whether the Government were
prepared to take into their consideration
the condition, generally, of the agricultural poor,
with a view of ascertaining whether there might not
be a something at the root of society, an under cur-
rent, as it were, which was producing this reckless-
ness and insensibility to the consequences of crime.
Sir J. GRAHAM said his inquiries had led him
to the conclusion that the causes were in no degree
of that nature.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the
great body of the peasantry were not implicated.
Lord J. RUSSELL inquired whether any persons
had been tried for the offence ?
. _

This was a rule calling upon the Duke of Brunswick to
show cause why the trial of the defendant, which at pre-
sent stood fixed for Friday next, should not be postponed
until the sitting after Hilary term, 1845. The prosecution
is in the form of a criminal information, for a libel imputing
to the Duke of Brunswick that he was the person who mur-
dered a woman a few years ago in a house a short way
over Waterloo-bridge. The rule was obtained yesterday in
the Bail Court, and cause was now shown against it by Mr.
Sergeant Talfourd and Mr. Wordsworth.
It appeared that the grounds of the application were, that
the defendant was at present a prisoner in Newgate ; that
he was in such a state of ill health as to require the attend-
ance of several medical gentlemen, whose names were set
out, and who had made a report to the Secretary of State,
upon the subject; that in such circumstances he was un-
able to give instructions to his counsel for the conduct of
the case, or to arrange the evidence of such of the witnesses as
were accessible to him at present ; and that there were other
witnesses who could give material evidence upon the de-
fence whose residences the defendant could not find out in
his present situation, but which he would be able to disco-
ver as soon as he should be at liberty; and that it was also
necessary for the purpose of his defence to inspect several do-
cuments which were at his private residence, but which were
not accessible to him at present. In answer to these grounds,
the Learned Sergeant and Learned Counsel urged that the
information might have been tried a long time ago, if it had
not been that it was made a special jury case by the &fen•
dant himself; that no step had been taken to strike the spe
cial jury even yet; that none of the medical gentlemen men-
tioned in the affidavit of Mr. Gregory had made an affidavit ;
and that if the trial should be put off, it Ought only to be for
a week, and upon the condition that when the record went
down for trial, it should be tried by a common jury, if, in
consequence of the ladies of the defendant, it could not be
tried by a special one. -
Mr. 'PLATT appeared Nupport of the rule, which he
thought that the feelings of common humanity ought to have
prevented the prosecutor from opposing. The Learned
Counsel went over the several grounds upon which the
rule nisi was granted, and contended that, as the imprison-
ment of Mr. Gregory would not be at an end before the
26th of November next, the trial ought at any rate to be
adjourned until the sittings after Michaelmas Term in the
present year.
Lord DLN)t.tx thought such to be the most reasonable
course that could be adopted, and the trial was accordingly
put off until the sittings after Michaelmas next.

POLICE INTELLIGENCE.
(YESTERDAY.).
MANSION-HOUSE.

A most outrageous imposter, who said that his nam,
was James Edward Smith, was brought before the Lord
Mayor, charged with having " bilked " the landlord of
the Monument Tavern.
The prisoner, it was stated, walked into the tavern,
ate a beef steak, drank six bottles of soda water, and
then had some brandy and water, and was about to
walk off without settling the bill, but was delivered into
the hands of a policeman.
The defendant—My Lord, I complain to you that
these men have acted illegally in dewing me upon such
a charge. It is a mere debt, and lam sure your Lord-
ship will treat it as such, and I have my remedy at law
for this false imprisonment.
The policeman, whu took the prisoner to the station-
house, said he kicked and struck several of them dan-
gerously.
The defendant—Every one of them has violated the
law. The money is recoverable by civil process. It is
through the medium of the profession, and not through
the ragamuffin police, that the debt is to be got.
The Loan MAYOR—You are are not only responsible
for the imposition upon the landlord, but for the violent
attack you have made upon the police ; and I sentence
you to imprisonment for a month.
The defendant—l appeal against that sentence. It is
a most infernal and diabolical system of injustice to im-
prison a man for a debt regularly contraegtid as `a debt.
I protest against it.

The LoitD litmort (to the officers)—Let him be
removed.

It was with difficulty the ruffian was taken from the
bar; and the officers were obliged to chain his bands
behind his back before they could convey him to the
Compter.
Two men, named Henry Manby and William Taylor,
were, on Tuesday, brought before Alderman John
Johnson, charged with having stolen a quantity of lead,
part of a leaden coffin which had been deposited about
twenty years ago in the vault of the church of St. Cle-
ment, East Cheap.

It appeared that the prisoners had been employed to
make preparations in the vault for a funeral, and that
they had been observed by some of the neighbours walk-
ing away with a large piece of lead from the receptacle.
Information having been given to a policeman, the
men were apprehended, and the lead was found in a
butter-firkin in Gracechurch-street, where they had de-
posited it.
Amongst those who gave evidence was Jane Margaret
Walker, who stated that she was assistant to the sexton
of the church of St. Clement, Eastcheap. She gave
most extraordinary evidence, and said that the coffins
were sometimes ordered by the churchwardens to be
broken up. About nine years ago a circumstance of the
kind had taken place. Upon that occasion the then
churchwarden had authorised the breaking up of the
leaden coffins.

Sir J. GRAHAM said there had been four or five ,
convictions at the last Assizes.
WRIT OF ERROR.—MR. O'CONNELL.
Mr. E. BULLER said considerable anxiety pre-
vailed as to the effect which the trial of the writ of
error in the House of Lords would have on the cir-
cuits. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
if he could say when the appeal would come on for
hearing.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had every reason to be-
lieve that the writ of error had arrived in London,
or would arrive in the course of the next four-and-
twenty hours. So far as the Government was con-
cerned, every effort would be made to expedite the
hearing of the writ of error ; and he was persuaded
that it would be heard in time to enable the judges
to attend their respective circuits within ten days
after the usual period.
IRISH CHURCH.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE.)
Colonel RAWDON, on the order of the day for
resuming the adjourned debate being read, rose. He
commenced by tendering his thanks to the Hon.
Member for Sheffield (Mr. Ward) for the zeal, the
industry, and the talent with which he had brought
this subject under the consideration of the House.
The efforts of that Hon. Gentleman were, he firmly
believed, mainly conservative. He maintained that
the true way of lareserving the union between the
countries was to show a disposition to approach what
was called a grivance with a desire to remedy it. The
Hon. Member for Sheffield had long laboured on
this subject. Year after year he had brought the
question forward; it had gradually gained ground,
and it was high time that it, should now produce
some practical result. The 'city of Armagh which
he represented was the residence of two primates, one
of the English Church, and the other of what he
might be permitted to call'the Irish Church. In
what situation did they find 'these two:prima. tes. One
was in the enjoyment of a splendid revenue inhabiting
a palace surrounded by a park, and 'having a seat
in the Legislature among the Peers:of the realm.
And in the absence of the Viceroy he ibecame one of
the Government of Ireland. Now he wished to call
the attention of the people of England and the House
to the state in which he found his neighbour, the
Primate of the Irish Church. •He lived in a humble
tenement, for which he paid rent. He was
unnoticed , and unrecognised- by the Government.
He had no part in the making of any laws
he was not even permitted by statute, un-
der a penalty, to call himself what he was.
They were told forsooth that. this was not galling.
Could the Roman Catholics look upon the relative
situation of the Roman Catholic and the Protestant
Prelates with indifference? They were told that this
motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield was a source
of irritation. He should consider that the annual
rejection Of his motion was a much greater source of
irritation. It was trifling with the feelings of the
people of Ireland.llear.) The fact was that they
had mixed up this question too much with Mammon.
He hoped no Roman Catholic would take offence at
what he was about to say, but he believed that the
simplicity of the Protestant form of worship gave it
great advantages over the Roman Catholic. The Re-
corder, of Dublin had admitted that the Protestant
religion. had not been advanced by its wealth derived
from the State. Why, then, did they not change
their system, and, relying upon the simplicity of-their
doctrines, see if that would not have more weight
with the people of Ireland ? The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman had told' them that 95,000/.
had been subscribed within the last few years
by the Protestants of Ireland for the build-
ing of churches. He rejoiced to hear it ; but
was not that such evidence of the zeal and prosperity
of the members of the ProtestantiChurch in Ireland,

Alderman JOHNSON asked the witness whether she
participated in the profits derived from the sale of the
lead? The witness replied in the negative.
Alderman JOHNSON, who was very much surprised at
hearing of such a practice, desired to be informed how
long the coffins were allowed to remain in the vault
before they were disturbed, and the lead appropriated?
The witness said the lead of the coffins had been broken
up but once since she had been employed about the
church, and that was nine years ago. She believed it
was sanctioned by the churchwarden, and the profits
were put down to the parish accounts.
Alderman JOHNSON—I never supposed that such dis-
graceful proceedings could, for a moment, have been
sanctioned or endured.

One of the prisoners said that be had been employed
by the other to take away the piece of lead, which had
been lying amongst some rubbish, and the other prisoner
said he had given the direction under the firm impresson
that the lead was the perquisite of the churchwarden.
The latter declared that, nine years ago, the lead of the
coffins had been actually sold out of the churchyard,
and the money obtained from the sale was carried to the
account of the churchwarden for the time being.
Alderman JonNsox said that so extraordinary a
business must certainly be closely investigated, and
remanded the prisoners.

THE SUN, LONDON, TIitTRSDA.Y EVENING, JUNE 13, 1844,

that it proved that there was no necessity for the
pecuniary encouragement of the State. He was
sorry to revert to the education question ; but
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had adverted to the
schools which had recently been erected, and he must
be permitted to say that the schools in the diocese
of Armagh had been erected in opposition
to the national system of education. His eyes
had been opened to the real nature of the
Protestant Church Establishment by their hosti-
lity to the national system of education.
He had heard in his own parish sentiments expressed
against that system, and he had heard sermons preached
against the plan, and knew a late instance in which a
bishop, who was appointed by the Right Hon. Baronet,
in his first charge expressed himself as strongly
opposed to the national system of education. This
proved to him (Colonel Rawdon) that these ministers
of the Church in Ireland were not the ministers of
peace. The time was now come when it was neces-
sary to ask whether the Government were in
earnest in their support of the national system of
education in Ireland. He thought they were bound
to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he was
acting fairly in not giving the whole weight of the
Government in support of a system for which the
country was taxed. The Noble Lord, the Secretary
for the Colonies, had originated the national system of
education in Ireland, and would that Noble Lord now
allow that system, for want of protection, to wither? The
Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had made use of
less argument in his speech last night than he (Colonel
Rawdon) had ever heard in any speech before. His
speech was made up merely of quotations of eminent
men. Those eminent men were distinguished for
being in advance of public opinion of their day, and he
(Colonel Rawdon) believed that if those eminent
men could come again amongst us, they would still
be in advance of the public opinion of the day.
He wished to address himself to the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Government ; he wished
to allude in most distinct terms to the declaration of the
Duke of Wellington, that the present Church of Ireland
was the foundation on which the union depended. For
his own part he could not see why the Act of Union
was to be thrust down the throats of the people of
Ireland. The great object of the Hon. Member for
Sheffield was to alter in some measure the laws re-
lating to the temporalities of the Church. With such
opinions how could he (Col. Rawdon) much longer
consent to be a party to that Act of Union, if he were
to be told that it rested on the Irish Church Esta-
blishment ? No reason whatever had been shown,
that the Act of Union would not be firmer and
stronger by placing the temporalities of the Church
on a proper and equitable footing. The Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government (Sir
R. Peel), on the recent discussion of the Dissenters'
ChapelS Bill, had shown a wish to do what was
right. He (Colonel Rawdon) had recorded his vote
for the Government in support of that Bill, although
he believed his constituents did not participate
in his approval of it. This would show
the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that if he
were disposed and determined to do justice he had
but to throw himself on that side of the House, and
then all measures brought forward by him and
founded on those principles would be carried
triumphantly. Though he (Colonel Rawdon) had
his predilections, he was an independent mem•
ber, and if the Right Honourable Baronet
showed the disposition to do justice he should be very
willing to come forward and give him his
support. He, the Right Honourable Gentleman,
had but to be just—to fear not. In speak-
ing the other evening on the Bill he had
referred to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert
Peel) had finished a beautiful eulogium on the
Established Church, by expressing his hope and
opinion that she would never allow her doctrines to
be thrown against the eternal principles of justice.
This had been put forward to the people in Parlia-
ment, but it had been put forward in a more emphatic
shape, in an address to public opinion out of doors,
which was signed by many Irish representatives,
to which lie was sorry that circumstances did
not permit him to attach his nasne. It was evi-
dent that many of the Liberal representatives
from Ireland had lost all confidence in that House,
from which they appealed to a sense of justice outside
the walls of Parliament. In that address, to which
he begged to call the attention o' the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government, was
demanded the recognition of perfect equality in
regard to ecclesiastical and educational arrangements
between the several religious communities into which
the population of the country was divided. What
could be more moderate than that demand ? It
was what had been carried on in practice in
England and Scotland. They neglected to
carry out that principle with regard to
Ireland. It was matter of history that both Houses
of Parliament stood pledged to redress the grievances
of It eland, and could any man say that the
state of the Established Church of Ireland was
not a grievance to the Catholic population of
that country ? He denied that the Act of Union
tied up their hands with regard to this subject; but,
at all events, it should be recollected that the Parlia-
ment of that day was very differently constituted to
what it would be now. If they wished to avoid a
revolution they ought to adopt a principle of common
sense.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He was sorry to
say that, in the present state of Ireland, foreign
Powers had too much to offer to her. It was not safe
to leave things in their present state —(Hear,.) He
knew it might be said that this was not patriotic, and
he knew how easily it was to get up a cheer in that
House by a contrary sentiment, but he maintained
that their business was to tell the truth—(Hear)
and he would again repeat that foreign powers had
too much to offer. He had lately conversed with
many foreigners, particularly with Protestant Ger-
mans, who had themselves broached the subject to him.
lie had talked much with Protestant Germans and
others, but in the whole course of his experience, on
the Continent, he had never found a man who could
understand the state of their relations. He thought
they ought to take warning from what philosophical
writers like Kohl said upon this subject. He declared
with all sincerity his belief that sooner or later the
continuance of this state of things would lead to
a, revolution in Ireland. He would not tres-
pass any longer on the attention of the House.
He had given utterance to his sincere belief,
that the Church temporalities were the cause of much
irritation, and that the union itself was weakened by
the present state of things. He would only, in con-
clusion, appeal shortly to what he hoped still existed
in that House, namely, an independent party. There
was such a party in that House in former days, and
from the opinions expressed by many lion. Gentlemen
opposite he hoped that such a party still existed.
He hoped that party would show a disposition to act
fairly towards Ireland, and that they would act in
accordance with the dictates of justice and of common
sense.
• Sir J. WALSH said that, notwithstanding the
general absence of an offensive tone in the speech of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield, there were some
parts of that speech open to objection. He said, for
instance, that from the earliest period, the govern-
ment oreland by this country had been a uniform
course of oppression. That was a statement that he
could hardly have expected to hear from an Hon.
Member who was a friend to British connection.
They might regret the severity of the penal laws, but
they were not made to bolster up the Irish Church.
They were enacted to secure the Protestant succes-
sion. There was another thing which he much re-
gretted, and that was the introduction of personal topics
into the Hon. Member's speech. He thought the sanctity
of private life ought not to be lightly invaded, as the
Members of this House possessed the privilege of
saying what they chose, and giving great publicity to
what they said—they ought to use those privileges
with great discretion. He knew nothing of Arch-
deacon De Lacy, but the Hon. Member had held him
up to a sort of reprehension in that House, as having
bpen a luxurious and pampered ecclesiastic, when the
House knew nothing of the circumstances, except
tliat he appeared to have spent a large private
fertune in acts of charity. -- (Hear, hear.)
If ever national faith ought to be preserved, it should
be preserved on the present occasion; it had never
bOen more solemnly pledged than it had been to the
Maintenance- of the Protestant Church of Ireland.
It was of quite as much importance to preserve the
national faith in our domestic as in our foreign rela-
tions. If the whole of the Irish Protestants agreed to
this proposition that might indeed cancel the engages
ment, but as it was at present the national faith was
pledged to the maintenance of the Protestant Church
in Ireland. The Hon. Member had repeated what
had often been quoted in that House, the declaration
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Ma-
jesty's Government some years ago, that Ire-
land was 'his principal difficulty in conducting
the government of this country. Ireland
did constitute a great difficulty, and he
(Sir J. Walsh) was quite sure that there was no
Government that could be formed—no possible, no
probable, no imaginary Government—that would not
find the question of the government of Ireland an
extremely difficult and complicated one. But lie did
not think that the difficulties of governinglreland had
been fully stated by the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
The problem a statesman had to solve was, how to
govern a country, which was most unhappily divided
and disturbed by religious differences—differences
existing between two parties of almost
equal force and importance in the country.
Ireland was unhappily divided by religious differ-
ences, and the Protestant party in Ireland constituted
the mind, and intelligence, and wealth of the country. It
was a mistake to suppose that there were few Protestants
in Ireland, besides those who held large landed
estates. They, in fact, were as numerous in the large
towns as the Catholics. The striking of the
late special jury list in Dublin, proved that the
flower of the middle class in Ireland in the large
towns were Protestants. He trusted that the ma-
jority on the present motion would be so large,

that the Protestants of Ireland might be at rest as
to the maintenance of their rights and privi-
leges; but he at the same time would desire to
see a provision made for the Roman Catholic clergy,
which he thought would contribute to the pacification
of the country.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that the lion. Baronet
who had just sat down would, it seemed, most gladly
make a provision for the Roman Catholic clergy of
Ireland, which was not wanted by them, and which
they refused--(Hear, hear) ;—but he would not give
them that to which they were justly entitled. The
time was when they would have gladly accepted
such a provision ; but the Honourable Baronet
might thank the party with which he, at present
acted that their
.proposal was not received. He
thought the allusion to the want of interest mani-
fested upon this subject was more infelicitous, be-
cause it could not be supposed that, after listening to
a long discussion on the mode of preserving dead
bodies, they could give a very rigid attention to the
important motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
They had already induced a state of despondency in
Ireland ; by their vote that night they might super-
induce a state of despair, and what would be the result
of that it was impossible to say. Consenting to go into
a Committee on this subject at this late period of the
session would be a matter of much importance.
What Irish measures had been introduced in this
session ?—(Hear.) The Irish Registration Bill had
convinced the majority of the people of Ireland
that the Government intended to limit, rather than
extend, the franchise. The Municipal Registration
Bill was, if possible, still more offensive, and if it ever
came to be discussed he believed that would be
proved to be the fact.—(Hear.) He alone had
presented, during the present session, more than 300
petitions against that measure. ow, they had an
opportunity at present of exciting the gratitude
of the Irish people by going into Committee on this
subject. The State trials were over. Had they checked
the influence of the conspirators ? Had they not at this
moment a cry throughout Ireland for the great mea-
sure of relief which it had been their effort to preclude.
In the same district, where Archdeacon Lacy re-
sided, and where he died, possessed of the wealth that
had been mentioned, the Catholic dignitary died, after
fifty years of labour, possessed of only tenpence-half-
penny, and the expense of his funeral was defrayed
by subscription. It was incumbent on them to do
something for the Catholic people of Ireland. The
memory of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for the
Colonies, seemed to have failed him regarding the
language used by him on the subject of the Catholic
oath. His observations were most injudicious and
ill-timed, and rankled in the minds of the people of
Ireland. Their attempts to'prop up the Established
Church in Ireland were only sapping and under-
mining it, and it must, ere long, tumble about the
ears of its supporters, if they did not make a material
change in their policy. The people of Ireland were
now in a state of the greatest political excitement ;
and there was an immense number of troops which
they could not at present withdraw, whatever their
exigencies might be. Within the last two months a
pamphlet had been issued from the French press
which had excited general attention—it was the pro-
duction of the son of the King of France, and it had
sunk deeply into the minds of the French people.
Suppose the amicable relations with France became
disturbed, which was not at all unlikely, and that the
plan of the Prince de Joinville was carried out, that
war steamers and gun-boats were sent to the coast of
Ireland, let him ask the Government then to whom
would they trust for the defence of the country ?
Was it to the Established Church, or to the Protestant
clergy, or was it to the stout hands and warm hearts
of the peasantry ? Well, he really thought, notwith-
standing the high opinion the Right Hon. Baronet
seemed to entertain of the strength of the Protestant
squirearchy, they would make but a feeble defence
against a formidable invasion.—(Hear, hear.) Were
they willing to give the people some earnest that they
intended to legislate on principles of equality and jus'
tice ? If they were, they should begin in time, and
not wait until it might be too late—until the enemy
was at hand, when no doubt they would be lavish
enough of promises, but when promises would be
useless. He would not trespass further on the time
of the House.
Mr. HORNBY opposed the motion, and dwelt
upon the necessity of maintaining the Established
Church in Ireland in its present condition. No-
thing would more tend to weaken the connection
between the two countries than impairing the
strength of the Irish Establishment.
Mr. DILLON BROWNE, after a preliminary
observation on the reason which induced him to
come forward, proceeded to say, that he regretted the
Hon. Member for Sheffield had not made his motion
more definite, and had not aimed a more determined
blow at the Irish Established Church. The speech
of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had
extinguished all hope of the Government making any
change in the present system. He declared the Church
must continue a fixture—that it was an irreproachable
monument of the wisdom of their policy, and that not
a ray of truth or inquiry should penetrate into the
darkest of its recesses. In his native parish, Glencoville,
forforty years, there had not been a Protestant Church
nor a Protestant rector, and yet his tenantry were
obliged to pay tithes, or rent-charge, which was the
same thing, although they all went to mass, and
though there was not a single Protestant in the pa-
rish. His father was a Roman Catholic ; his mother
and sisters were Protestants ; but his mother and
sisters had travelled eleven miles to church every Sun-
day. They might have gone to the next parish church,
but there they would have heard a long sermon, in
which Roman Catholics were attacked in the coarsest
and most 'vituperative language, and they did not like
to listen to a sermon in which their father and bro.
thers were denominated infidels and idolators.—
(Hear, hear.) Archdeacon Marley, of the parish of
Anaghdown, in Galway, had no other congregation
than hia clerk, and he was a Roman Catholic.—
(Laughter.) Once the Archdeacon was invited to
dinner on a Christmas-day by a parishioner, and ex-
cused himself for delay on the ground that his clerk
had been at mass, as it was Christmas-day.—(Re-
newed laughter.) The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
applaud himself for the more equal division of the re-
venues of the Established Church, which had recently
take place in Ireland, but what was it to the people
as long as they were obliged to pay the same money,
whether the remains were given to few or many ? It
was little satisfaction to the man who had been robbed
by several highwayman, that the spoil had been
equally distributed among them. Before the French
Revolution broke out, M. Necker, father of Madame
de Steel, took the tax off the hat to put it on the
shoe. The French people laughed at him ; and be-
fore they guillotined the Monarch, they caricatured
the Minister. He approved of Lord Howick's no-
tions on the Irish Church, and thought that, if car-
ried into operation, they would be productive of the
greatest benefit to the whole people. The Executive
Government of Ireland were persons who were inca-
pable of performing the functions which had been en-
trusted to them. How could the people of Ireland be
contented under the present system of government in
that country ? It would be contrary to nature to
expect it. The Church Establishment must perish
sooner or later. Even if repeal were not carried,
such an ti stablishment could not continue with the
sanction of such an intelligent population as the inha-
bitants of this empire. The mind of Ireland had be-
come too elastic and buoyant to sink under so unna-
tural a burden.

SiammaftwoftigNlPllMs. _
tion. He contended that the religious sentiment "lib
t,
necessary to insure the stability of every Govermn,e.c
He thanked the House for the attention withns
they had heard him, and apologised for observati
made in so crude and ill-digested a manner. /00,
Mr. VERNON SMITH congratulated the
Gentleman on having, on this occasion, becomerl
saviour of the Irish Church ; if he had notrisenlog,.
he aid, they 'xould cettlinly have carried the
inittee, but the Hon. Member had very
displayed his great powers of information, !leililt:if
say, on every subject except that more immenlBoo
before the House, and when that failed him heal to
kindly supplied with refreshment from the Tre)
benches—(Laughter)—which he (Mr. V.•
hoped was merely a forerunner of other more !ad
stantial favours from the same quarter.—(P at
Stanley, during Mr. Borthwick's speech, 118,c1seal
Lord A. Lennox to the lobby of the House n„)r,
orange, which the Noble Lord handed to the Ilon..ae,va,
ber.) The Hon. Member had certainly established nilsci
self as one of the first speakers against time that
ever appeared in that House. It often happene_ is,
topics of importance were made an occasion for dectie,
upportunelt
mation, and he was not surprised that manY g°°
,1e
men had voted this question a bore, and not e,ects
down to listen to the discussion. But' other subio
of equal importance had been neglected in the,esq
manner in that House, and yet they had been ntero,
carried. On the question of Parliamentary Bei:bort
he believed the House was counted out a eery -,
time before it was carried. The question of Cctilured
Emancipation was for a long period constelo
rather as a thesis for young speakers 'sea,
as a practical measure, before it Pe:01,13
It was highly necessary that they 7,e of
pay attention to this measure, for the ser
preserving the peace of Ireland, which was in 1190,
nent danger. It might be broken either frestoe
failure of the potato crop or the firing of a tbst
gun in Europe. He believed that, if the rePerh',liip
Admiral Dupetit Thouars had sunk an Eng?"irish
at Otehaite had been true, the question of the„„.3sit)!
Church would have been settled, from the ee'-•ti of
they should have been under of calling in the 81 to
their fellow-countrymen. He wished to sehe tbls
way in which the Ministry intended to deal ivit'd•ffi,
question. The Irish Church was always t11,,e,,,e
culty that stood in the way of establishing a 6`",,tsb.
ment in Ireland. When the late Governmentr;:
lished the system of national education, the '-oti,ete
was the greatest opponent of it, and the) tern•
still the greatest opponents of that useful 5Y.500 of
The Church stood in the way of the administrati
sties
justice, as the Government knew from the difetrieficl•
with respect to Catholic juries. They talked of de'i,be.
ing the Church on the score of defending tl'e or ;re'
of property. Why, they made greater inroads niterr
perty every day than would be caused by an.F ll pro'
tion of the Catholic Church. Every railroad 13,1"bisof
duced a great and compulsory change in the la not
property. On the ground of religion, he
it st
see how they could maintain the Church as still
present existed. It had totally failed in propagtge
the Protestant Church in Ireland. He did,lllo° Ye"
prove of an universal voluntary system. 13voluntary
land the majority of the population had a
system, and the minority had a compulserlatil
That was the very worst position in which a cold
could stand in this respect ; their object shell tlB
to produce something like an equality betweeo,o3oo
Churches. He considered that the amount ofd the
enjoyed by the Protestant Church, 81.1'-'ith it;
conduct of individual dignitaries connected w:dereo
were minor points of the question. He eetl.ll, 858
the Church rather as a religious grievance tit Ire'
pecuniary one. He considered the Church thin
ci
land as an anti-Protestant Establishment, fin lie
such he was prepared to deal with it. de'
wished to see the Catholic clergy not entirealtbeel
pendent on their congregations, as it dePrivee fro°
of their moral independence, while an allowaencia
the State would secure their loyalty. He shci-ne-'l'e
go into the means by which this might be do-„ia
did not anticipate that any great movement we'ssure•
made by the Government in regard to this re et
Seeing how they were supported it was allll,°sclo set:
possible for them, even if they wished it, °more'
All their support was derived from the }lig! -,eOPI/j
party in this country. The English tbe.,
were generally moderate and quiet, 19,11 h"
had their periods of excitement wiltetioll
nerally occurred at the septennial ei-oakh
and he could assure the Government that it
not do to go to the constituencies with the tilifilDuPiall'
tariff, their Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, the 15',
Courts Bill, or such a question as that of Chtlf,c;cli be
tension, which had done nothing as yet, and In
believed would end with doing very little. -In aid;
cent debate the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Sit,etholic
had introduced the question of the Roman ~0;0"
oath, and read it at the table, for the purpose°' roe
ing out the subjects on which he thought thei
bound not to vote.
Lord STANLEY—I said the very contrail enteet
Mr. V. SMITH—It was of very little
what the Noble Lord had said : Ay had he bided
forward and read the oath at all He hathirvbe,,,/j
over the debates on the Catholic Relief Bill, ain-„ost
it was proposed that Roman Catholics shut,iluf-di,frt.
allowed to vote on questions affecting the Cne,.-eetre'
Right Hon. Baronet opposite said he won't)", esl
allow that any Member of that House should ,psr
eluded from forming his own judgment on 84°6 °'
titular case, and he was unwilling to deprive 'did'
man Catholic Members of that liberty of free 8040
sion, and the exercise of judgment, which h,el,l°o 1,11:
every Member of Parliament. He apPealiie"tber
recollection of the Right Hon. Baronet I"ef Alp
did not use language to this effect, for he Oar
Smith) was not prepared with any scruPB,:-be e„e:
sad. He did not know what object wet'
„O
rived from maintaining this oath. It Was no
lit, for the Established Church, for since it of 11
enjoined every Member was to interpret it I f 01;
self ; and it should be left to the good taste Wit
Gentlemen whether they would throw it int'eof 11;;
of Roman Catholic Members, that they did id be eat
here to it. He did not think that much ceilestiou,,t
petted from the present Government on 3 Citithe
'e
this nature, but if they wished to remove
that clan
„
source of discontent in Ireland they woula "at c 0;
present state of the Estsblished Church in

,ry.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr.-BOR-TWICK explained. occogg
eiepSeapiarrtrrei
e:Jnshte.eenGwatorßef.
a)dAreti
:nHeae HAMtseesatinnhsdoa thought
goaahhnttger
eoawmtunharayeso
illaielliblisoliNlgcniehlt. lhiac:n:gawrerieafiatinveioger
esri,.2,
,mil
tta(
hh:
follow
ontflrtltirophowpedeuptdchrepeodutßebstlithgiacihnstt subject had very eenajuedeogsjtille,°tolllot
opinionnc ioi nu .rChurch
eninnstel
eemkianng Ireland.wfohro tshrlepye-0, eissotlisi
t 0...
gi
nii-ttoee
iatnhgtereerrepadrtehNtvearittihiornrheiolmefv,ant subject of the Catilnueber ''''''tbe
be bound by his ofiwi
was for tot
the oath,
itealninatdtioueisat cohpil ‘iili eon:
i---itiso totter
be
Member to ask of him to interpret iris cording) The
beor., nio'
view which he took of it himself.—r, ~,, c-
oath
Roman Catholic Members were admitted otiof.";0, ofiTi
wplaestebuinnddienrgstoanndtihnegir tchoantsctiehneceosb, laingdatio beingsl 61'
that terpr!`ht
was left to each individual to put their own Joe 1401
tion on the oath. He also agreed withiifficiiltYtia
Hon. Gentleman with respect to the 1'1010,1.305'
dealing with religious subjects in regal.' tipetViglit
where there was a voluntary Church, a :the P!'os
Church, and an Established Church. Bn' interi dot
Hon. Gentleman had asked what were tbe tost.,
vro tiy
of the Government with regard to the crettoeti.th
dCehbuarteehd.thHise
subject,(S irJanGdreaxhparmes)sehdad sn inieos ',viol
his op Geotiewvo
regard to it, that from him theßight 11°11,:elieved,h`eir
could expect but one answer, which be 1" was 14 of
also the opinion of his colleagues—that I;itelan'it,.4
desire to purify the Established Church °L uhitill, it
every abuse, and to strengthen it by reugriged„,:ote
discipline and practice; and, having so P the Pillt?
was their determination to support it as ors.) id
lished Church of Ireland.—(Ministerial client had sir
Hon. Gentleman who introduced the subJ,s veri_Aio
that the Established Church in Ireland,
n'oncurar
efficient, and had made no converts. liet frouse'tfib'
the opinion of Mr. Buxton, who,
Oared it as his opinion that the abuses of
nts to i. 7
in th the s
the
lished Church were the great impedi!ne 10130aaj.
spread of the Establishod Church In readill,,ioo.
(Hear, hear.) He and his colleague?_ eoposi:(o,,,
mitted that ; and, whether in office or in fliel.,,
they did their best to remove these abus!
arch jo P.
Gentleman said that the Established ()_Oll
..,
01,,
land was the worst Church in Christenct
O.
go P .
Mr. WARD said he did not say
thiol‘
quoted the opinion of Queen Mary.
did 00t tieeti
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he
that it could be expected that the opi ?rotes'
Mary could be very favourable to the
3f the
Church. „.;
Bon Gen sidil'
wife Iro.fllVvAiißliaDm meantnl. the Queen Mary of 16:010.
it
Sir J. GRAHAM begged the
readv t° ti°'"
pardon ; but, at all events, he was Revolut. et
that within a period a little later t hushed ri• _•eo
r • kinutlsi,.
there were abuses in the ...sta_.ce were i'v_viLl
Ireland which were a disgrace. 2...Uslfriend, sotvorf
imperfections in it which none of it
rter of a ee, use,:,
wish to see; but within the last quu
.e those a'e
clo.
Aevneorytheerffoirmt phoardtanbteemnernasaucriee tlovaii.e,nlPa°_:_sdedh;Tiistlivic,ibcil'e
vernment of Earl Grey, and introduce_sshire, l_try;
Friend the Member for North Lau' the eooting
and bail t"e t tbi
against sinecures and pluralists, 11
pinted O"s
ga
adnimdintihsh,red tthooekProatmesptlaent
phrieecraaurctlioynsof in
,glenve
bets for the University of Dublin. .fleur, Ire,
peffluercatlitoiefs.thoisvehengearsutrhees
Eisntarbeldisulicelun'gcslll.°.,reobr °,l'l°'
land was the worst Church in Christenu°,l;jightr,lje
h believedall
engethcaotmtphaeriinsoinnism,t,eirths oafnythoutthCe.lriunirci:lolisatileati.s
oecttive
Protestant faith. They were resident,

Mr. HAMILTON regretted that the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield should think it his duty to make an
annual attack upon Church property in Ireland. The
time was gone by when the question of the Church of
Ireland was likely to be an engine to be used for
party purposes. He believed that the maintenance of
the Church of England in Ireland was calculated to
maintain religious truth. It ought to be kept up be-
cause this was a Protestant State. He would ask
whether 2001. a year was too great an
income for a gentleman of education to enjoy who
held the situation of a beneficed clergyman ? yet this
amount was that which would only fall to the share
of each clergyman of England if the annual income
of the Church were divided equally amongst them.
Considerably more than one half of the benefices of
Ireland were less than 300/. a year, and only about
twenty-six were more than a thousand a year.
These facts were shown by the reports of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners. The Hon. Gentleman then
read a statement of the amount derivable from several
benefices in Ireland. He was sure that the more the
question was discussed the better situation the
Church would stand in.—(Hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER thought that they would never
do justice to Ireland as long as they were in a state
of peace ; it was not wise or politic to let Ireland re-
main in the state she was. He thought great consi-
deration ought to be given to the pamphlet of the
Prince de Jonville.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no
division took place, and on our re-admission to the
gallery we found
Mr. P. BORTHWICI( addressing the House in
opposition to the motion. He regretted extremely
that this motion should be brought forward annually,
as he considered it calculated to excite irritable feel-
ings between the Roman Catholics and the Protestants.
The real grievance of Ireland was not in the Church,
but in the poverty of its people and the bitterness of
party feeling. Even the cry of repeal had carried
but little weight, till the magical words " fixity of
tenure," had been brought to its support. Then was
it that the multitude rushed to the support of Mr.
O'Connell, and that the isle was frighted from its
propriety. This "fixity of tenure" was that which
roused Ireland, and not the connection between

Church and State—a connection which he (Mr.
Borthwick) maintained was a desirable and a neces-
sary one in any country. Only a short time ago an
illustrious individual in another place had declared that
every man, whatever his belief might be, was inte-
rested in maintaining the principles of the Reforma-

entillieni
GovernMenb
n with Wbig
obseriratOs

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