The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-20 00:00:00

avonrinele to ono chamber. That was a piece of infor- the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. To that
matien which bad been withheld from the House. How- his obj.ctions were of a totally different nature. His
ever conclusive the argument might be, there were objection to that proposition was, that we were not_ at
some
mysterious wishes of the colonists to be taken for present in a state to come to any perfect solution of that
granted at the declaration of the Government. But question.— (Hear, hear.) He did not think they had,
where were these wishes to be found expressed? He either from New South Wales or Van Diemen's Land,
(Mr. Adderley) had looked through the papers laid or any of those colonies, information sufficient to enable
before the Houle, and he could not find them. Did the them to come to a solution of the question.—(hear,
Government assume a degree cf clairvoyance, and pro- hear.) It might be that it was difficult to find persons
fees to know by that means the wishes of the colonists? who would give their time to legislative measures in two
To demand an agreement on the part of the House was chambers. He was nct able to come to a decision even
tantamount to a vote of confidence on the colonial on that part of the subject. In the next place, the ques-
policy of the Government—what he (Mr. Adderley) tion arose if they had a second elective chamber, which
could not, under the circumstances, consent to. He con- was to be some check on the more popular chamber,
aidered the kind of information laid before the House how was it to be composed, and what was to be the
was not calculated to establish the case of the Govern- qualification of the electors? Were they to be the
went. At first it was contained in two books, 1848-49, same electors as those who returned the lower cham-
and consisted of dispatches. Reading that, however, he ber, or different? When he introduced a 13i11 for the
agreed with Sir W. Denison that no man could say the better union and government of the Canadas, he was for
colonists objected to two chambers—all that could be some months in correspondence with Lord Sydenhate,
gathered from it was that the colonists of New South the then Governor, who consulted persons of various
Wales were dreadfully alarmed at the caricature of the kinds and high station, some of them being judges, some
British constitution proposed for them. The next piece men who had conducted the administration of the colony,
of information given to the House was, the colonists of and he, after long deliberation, was enabled to send a
New South Wales had expressed their gratitude to the tolerably perfect sketch of a Bill to introduce upon the
Government for the constitution; but it now appeared subject. But in this case the Government had received
that, being excessively alarmed, and despairing of any no answer to any proposition of theirs. There fore, if it
constitution, they naturally expressed themselves grate- might be wise hereafter to establish such a constitution
ful for the concession of a representative body. The as two chambers, they were not now in a condition to
next piece of information was a striking one. In the legislate for such a purpose. It was a subject (Stile highest
middle of the session, iu the course of the debate on this importance. There were examples in our neighbourhood
question, the Government stated that though delay at this time, though perhaps no great attention was paid
might be fatal to the measure, still as the House was to them, which showed the importance even of details
not sufficiently acquainted with the subject, had not in such questions. In Belgium and Holland they had
read, in short, the dispatches, they had made up their decided on having a second chamber, and that that
mind to delay the Bill until fresh information should be second chamber should be composed of persons having
laid before Parliament. That information was waited a much higher qualification than the members of
for with great anxiety; but when it came it turned out the more popular assembly; but in adopting that quail-
to be nothing more than a collection of old dispatches fiscation the Belgian Constitution provided that a cer-
from governors. There was only one new piece in it, tain amount of land-tax should be paid. The taxes on
and that was in such a fragmentary form—so filled with land and real property lately introduced in the consti-
asterisks—as to be almost useless. What the object cf tion of Holland were in the nature of our assessed taxes
the Government could be in publishing a collection of and taxes on houses; and the consequence of that dis-
oid dispatches as fresh information, unless it was to tinction, which might seem a slight one, was, that in one
blind the House, he (Mr. Adderley) could not possibly country (Belgium) you had great landowners and a
conceive. While that meagre information was all that most conservative chamber; and in the other country—
the Government allowed the House, there was a con- he would not say they were not conservative—but men
siderable deal of information on the subject from other residing and having large houses in towns, and whose
quarters. Judge Terry, who was in this country, and great expenditure took place in towns, and who were
who was an individual of great authority, said the tole- therefore a totally different class from tersons in the
nists desired to have a constitution with the three second chamber in Belgium; sbowing how important an
estates separate. Mr. Speaker Nicholson bad also error might be even in a matter of detail.—(Hear.) He
written from the colony to this country, exprea- really did not think the Hon. Baronet the Member fur
sing in very strong terms the same opinion ; and Southwark, in dealing with this open question of the Co-
Dr. Lang's pamphlet was equally strong on the lonial Reform Association, was endowed with such com-
subject. Then there was Mr. Lowe's resolu- plete knowledge of the affairs of all these colonies, and
tion before the Legislative Council of New the character of the population, either cf the land
South Wales, while the leading journals of the colony owners or of the people of the town of Sydney,
agreed, in commenting on that resolution, that the only as to be enabled to speak confidently on the subject. It
thing wanting was a second chamber. The Noble Lord was said that the constitution proposed by the Hon.
had, no doubt, presented a petition of an opposite ten- Barcnet was modelled on the present constitution of this
dency before the recess, but of the hundred signatures country. lie observed that one of tte propositions in
appended to it, there were not, perhaps, twelve who ad the Hun. Baronet's new constitution was, that if two-
ever been in New South Wales, the remainder being thirds of the two chambers should agree in asking for
colonial agents or individuals indirectly connected with the removal of the governor he was to be removed.
the colony. The language of that petition, however, be- That might be called an application of the principles of
trayed its origin—it was altogether official in its form. the constitution of England to the colony perhaps, but
But the subscribers expressed themselves satisfied with he certainly did not remember to have heard of the so-
the proposition of the Government; how could they vereign of this country being removed by the resolution
answer for the colonists? He would take the name of of a proportion of the Members of the Legislative
one at randon—Mr. Enderby, for instance—Mr. En- Council.—(Hear and laughter.) With regard to a no-
derby was in the South Sea whale fishery, and his ships mnione council, therefore, it seemed to be a scheme so
might, no doubt, have touched at New South Wales; =Palatable to the colonies, that such an alteration would
but that this circumstance should give him a be received with surprise, and its repeal demanded, and
right to know the opinions of the colonists he could not, therefore, recommend the Committee to
better than he (Mr. Adderley) had the means adopt it. With regard to the second proposition, that
of knowing in London, he could not for a moment of the Honourable Baronet the Member for South-
admit. That, however, was the whole amount of wark, which was much the best alternative,
information given by the Government on the subject, and he thought they were not in possession of infor-
the House was to be called upon on their ipse dinit to mation sufficient to guide them. If, indeed, the favour-
adopt the plan on the ground that it was satisfactory to able breezes which had brought the intelligence from
the people of New South Wales. He (Mr. Adderley) New South Wales and South Australia—(A laugh)—
had always felt perfectly certain that the measure could should bring word that the people at large could not
not be carried—he did not mean through the House, be- bear the notion of a single chamber that might alter
cause he believed the Government could carry any me a• the matter; but they all seemed to think that, although
cure at tine moment—but carried out in the colonies. it might be advisable to have a second chamber in time,
lie felt it, because it was impossible of execution; and they would object to a nominee chamber, and the time
he had full confidence that the House had only to wait was not arrived when they were able to soy whet their
a few clays fur favourable breezes from the colonies, and mind was upon the subject, and what form of second
he would be found to be right. News from New South chamber would most conduce to their wishes. If such
Wales and New Zealand were hourly expected, but news then were the case, ho asked the Committee not to be
from Van Diemen's Land had arrived, and he was led away by the Hon. Member who spoke last, and
warranted in stating that the news fully bore think they were endeavouring to do something oppres-
out his predictions. It appeared clear to him sive to the colonies, but that they would feel that, on the
that Sir William Denison would decline to contrary, this was the introduction for the first time of
carry the measure into execution in the colony the representative element into these colonies; that
of which he was governor—at least sucb, as far as he power was given them to elect their own legislators,
could infer, were the tenor of his opinions; and it would which they never had before, thus laying the founda-
not be the first time that a colonial governor had re- tion of a free constitution, under which he hoped they
fused in the same manner. The Government had been might long prosper.—(Cheers.)
refused by the Governor of New Zealand, who said it Mr. ANSTEY said the Noble Lord who had just sat
would involve the loss of the colony if he attempted to down had so completely removed every difficulty raised
carry out the abortion of a constitution which hail been by the Hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark and the
passed for it; and doubtless the other governors would Hon. Member for Northampton, that he bad almost
do likewise. He called on the Government, therefore, doubted whether he should address any observations to
to acknowledge at once that this was the last of a series the Committee. All the propositions r f the lion. Mem-
of failures in making constitutions for the colonies, and ber were of the most abstract and impracticable kind,
that it was the final attempt of Lord Grey to concoct and his motion would do serious mischief to amend-
an omnibus constitution, which should sweep down half meats which, but for that, would have come infore the
a de z -re colonial constitutions at a time. He thought Committee by this time. He believed that the colonists
that every seen should discard the infamous proposition cared nothing about the question of one or two chambers;
that, because a vicious constitution was given to one co- he knew that his instructions were to do his best to make
lony it should be given to all colonies in the same latitude. the assemblenof representatives areal representative cham-
It would be a doublet injustice in this case, which he hoped ben It bad been asserted on both sides of the House that
the House would never sanction. Another proposition they were not in possession of the opinions of the cok-
which the House should lay aside for ever was, that two nists, the fact being that the Bill had been before them
such colonies as New South Wales and Van Diemen's two years at the least. The very circumstance of there
Land were so completely connected together, that the being no petitions to the House or the Crown—no me-
arguments in support of the proposition of a constitu- morials to the Minister—afforded the most conclusive
lion for one should serve equally well for the other, evidence of the real sentiments of the colonists.—(Hear,
The two constitutions presented themselves under two hear.) The only protest came from the nominee coun-
different aspects—the one as a basis constitu- cif, and he knew that for years past this Legislative
tie-n, the other as offering the means for in- Council of South Australia had been, on all important
determinate and unlimited adaptation to the questions in which taxation was concerned, opposed to
wants of the colonies. The question at issue the declared will of those for whom they legislated. He
was not so much a single chamber versus a double, as need only allude to their conduct with respect to the
the adoption of the central or municipal principle in project for the endowment of religious establishments in
respect of colonial government. The central principle proof of this. Meetings in favour of the Bill had been
was that under which the mother country restrained the held in the colonies, and he hoped the Noble Lord
power in her own bands, and made the Colonial-office, would not consent to any delay beyond what was neces-
with its veto, its patrcnage, its books, its useless dis- sary for the consideration of the various amendments
patches, and its dilettante legislation, the be-all and end- now before them. He believed it would be infinitely
all of the colonies. The municipal principle was that more difficult for the people of Van Diemen's Land
under which the colonists, by the aid of the repro- and South Australia to obtain any reforms if the
sentative system, governed themselves in all local amendment of the Hon. Baronet the Member for
matters. A singie or double Chamber was only Southwark were to succeed, than if the Bill of the Go-
the
Shibboleth between these principles. The vernment were to pass in all its integrity. The result
Honourable Member then quoted De Lolme to show of that amendment would be the creation of a true
that this writsr laid it down as an undeniable proposi- oligarchy, which, when the protecting power of the
tion that the solidity of the English Constitution was Crown was withdrawn, would enter into the full fruition
owing to the division of legislation of England into two of power, which they would not fail to make lasting and
estates. The Government had suggested that there was secure. Besides this, the Hon. Baronet had failed to
no union among the colonial reformers in that House on support his proposition by any authority derived from
the subject of the composition'of an upper chamber; but the colonists themselves, for he could not view the private
that was not the fact. There was no disagreement on opinions of an individual governor as a colonial
the great point that there should be two chambers, and authority, especially when Sir W. Denison himself,
that each estate should be separate and independent, be whose able dispatch had been relied on for this purpose
cause they desired to establish a Conservative element in had stated them to be his private opinions, adding-tha;
the constitution. To this proposition the Government he could not take upon himself to say that they were
was perfectly antagonistic; and he (Mr. Adderley) could universal or general. He was of opinion that the scheme
not but feel surprise that the men who some twenty years of two chambers was in itself a bad scheme; that was to
ago convulsed the country because a peer or two had the say, it was not so good as one chamber only in colonies
nomination to a few seats in Parliament, should now pro- situated like South Australia and Van Diemen's Land;
pose of their own accord a constitution for the colonies and he was also of opinion that it was only a better
of this country, by which 33 per cent. of the representa- scheme than the plan proposed by the Noble Lord of
Lives of these colonies would be nominated by the Crown. having nominees of the Crown in a solitary chamber.
—(Hear.) Comparing the proposition of the Govern- With respect to so much of Van Diemen's Land as the
meat with that of the Hon. Baronet the Member for amendment applied to, the authority of iSir William
Southwark, ho could not for a moment hesitate which to Denison was against the lion. Baronet, for the governor
choose, if a choice were imperative. The latter was a expressed his doubts whether in the whole colony a suf-
statesmanlike plan—the former was a futile piece of fi
ci ent numberproperty
single
ioifo aepartiescouldsuAssembly,r e tbc eccfnoslutfni
tdsuotp,eo,ws shueaustds ienrg
wasttbhtioes
legislation. requisite
Lord J. RUSSELL would not have addressed the Bill, a
House at that period of the evening if the Hon. Gentle- become of the other House, which required a higher
man had not questioned the information supplied by the qualification and an additional number of members.
Government. That information consisted of dispatches Under all the circumstances of the case it was his inten-
from governors of the colonies and other persons in pos. tion to vote for the original clause.—(flour.)
session of the means of knowing the facts. The infor- Mr. AGLIONBY said the difficulty under which he
mation of the Hon. Gentleman was deferred until favour- laboured was the want of sufficient information on which
able breezes, though there could be no doubt the breezes to form an opinion. As an abstract proposition he had
that came to him came not from the colonies, but from no hesitation in stating that a second chamber was de-
the Jerusalem Coffee-house.—(Laughter.) The House sirable, but being ignorant* of the circumstances of the
would remember that in Sir H. Young's dispatch it was colony, he thought the colonists ought to have the
stated that a meeting of colonists at
Adelaide was to power of carrying out that proposition when, and in such
take place the following Friday on the subject of the manner, as they themselves might think most desirable.
constitution. By journals that had come to hand since In the first place, was an upper chamber desirable at
then, it appeared that this meeting did take place in the this moment ? The composition of such a chamber he
Exchange; that there were 2,000 persons
th present includ. would leave for future discussion. In January, 1848,
Governor Fitzroy expressed his opinion in favour
less than from ere were never
n3,2oceOtictog la,so34or.individuals in the great of an upper chamber, but from what Lad taken
room. At thatl
Fisher moved the first place in the colony a considerable difference of opi-
resolution after reading &clause of the Bill—perhaps that nion seemed to exist. In a dispatch received from Van
then under discussion—and his speech was to the effect Diemen's Land on the Bth April, 1850, and dated De-
that one chamber was sufficient for the present wants t) f comberchab 2, 1849, Sir W. Denison said that a second
the colony, and that a second chamber composed of
no
• minee,s of the Crown, appointed for life, was desired,: In ampaeprer ought
received to b
on the once
b April constituted by Parliament.datedAdelaide
vee at
l7t ,
(He ar, hear.) He then spoke in its favour in a style Dec. 17, 1849 i
gav
the governor gave a series of resolutions
which offered a strong contrast to the violence and the passed by the:Le is! t e Council, the result of which
invective in which the Hon. Gentleman and the Hon, was that an
upper chamber was desirable, although come
Baronet had indulged against the Government and the doubt existed as
to its composition. It appeared from
Colonial- office of this country. The resolution went on other resolutions Out the colonists differed from the
to say, " That the Bill laid before Parliament, in so far governor, and did not want an upper chamber. Upon
as it related to South Adelaide, met the wants and the whole he (Mr. Aglionby) was in favour of an upper
wishes of the colonists; and that the concession of a re- chamber. Now if the House should express an opinion
presentative Government was to be regarded as a wise in favour of two chambers, he wished to know whether
and liberal measure." It concluded by stating that thanks the Government would be prepared to carry out the
were due to Lord Grey, Mr. Hawes—(A laugh)—Lord plan he had suggested, and
give the colonists the power
J. Russell, and Mr. Lahouchere. for introducing it, and to of deciding at what time the second chamber should be
those Members of the House of Commons who had given formed. He believed that our colonies would derive
it their support. The Honourable Gentleman wanted great advantage from the introduction of the represen-
the opinions of the people of the colonies. Here was t Ivo element into a single chamber. In New aland
meeting, and it was in
cent,tlie n ocmn ienvecersy hadart c
ls establishedus eda in B
rdutyitshosfhfirpopmiclg2steon
tlsfrpoemr
the opinion of a great public
this country. If the chamber had been elective, h
favour of the
(Hear,proposition of the Gopvoesrsnezeionnt.
of
hear.) The House was already in
the opinions of the Governor and the Legislative Council belmierv.edßothEatßsuucchKa
said
dp
thweouNldobnieevLercrhdayseeebmecedn
ttcske;a.e
on the subject,
eider two chambers better than one, and an elective
Bill. and yet the Honourable Gentlemdanbmyatibne
con-
tained that the colonists were severely oppresse
Bill. As to the proposition of a single or
.double chamber to be better than a nominee one. Theques-
chamber, he (Lord J. Russell) was quite surprised to lion then arose when these two elective chambers should
- be constituted. The Noble Lord at the head of the cc
herr the Ilon. Gentleman say it was a secondary consi
deration whether the latter should be p dof notni- lonies said, " What am Ito dot Ido not know the state
noes for life or of elected Members. clnm-hoese opinion of cf the colony." In such a case he (Mr. Roebuck) would
her Majesty's Government there wails
ethue treatesdt driffoe. endeavour to point out the duty of the Government. It
rence between the two principles, was not for the few colonists now in existence to decide
understood
the lion. Baronet that it was made an open upon the future destinies of the Imperial colonies of
the Colonial Reform Association whether question s
chamberti on with
eat Britain. It would not be right to hand over a
should be composed of the nominees of the Crown, great Imperial question to be dealt with by a few colo-
elected for life, or otherwise, or whether they should be niste. Parliameet ought t determine what would be
elected and represent the people of the
a'nony. He best for that large colonial empire which was about to
owncd he thought that a most important distinction but rise in Australia. The mother country sect out a por-
he would state, in a few words, his objections to either tion of her people who, under the flag, the power, and the
of those propositions. If, instead of having nominees of
England, planted themselves in those distant
protection of _ .
the Crown in the proportion of one-third in a chamber, wished them to stand towards this
r, parts of the world. He
where, if the opinion of the representatives was countthe relation of affectionate colonists, and that
very decided, it would be enabled completely ry inof
to ever stretched-out empire should be go-
overwhelm them, those eight or nine persons were byvernyed portionoa our
principles of freedom which prevailed
to sit in a separate character, and control altogether and in this country.
ose
Taccomplish that object we must
put an absolute veto on the legislative measures of make themf
by empire making them free sub-
the representative assembly, he believed the intro- jects, united tor
I concerns, but manag-
duction of such a proposition would cause great dissatis- ing their ownolo
uscl in our mper
din to their own local
faction in the colony, and he was not, therefore, disposed hear.)knowledge.—(Hear
rconcerns accc)r
asgan important con-
to entertain it. Then they had the other proposition of sideration. How This w _
mo.
did we loge the United States A

f;