The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-07 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

On the motion that the orders of the day be read,
Mr. HUME said there was a notice for a vote in Sup-
ply on the paper to-night. Was it intended to take that
vote to-night or to-morrow?
Sir G. GREY was afraid it could not come on to-
night.

'kr. HUME appealed to Government to give him an
early opportunity of bringing on his motion respecting
the New Houses of Parliament.
FACTORIES BILL.

The House then went into Committee on this Bill.
Mr. BANKES said it was some time since the atten-
tion of the House was occupied with this very interesting
question. He had now to state that the important
amendment which was to be introduced by the Noble
Lord the Member for Colchester (Lord John Manners)
would not be proposed at this stage of the pro-
edings, but on the bringing up of the report. He
(Mr. Bankes) made this explanation on behalf of the
Noble Lord, who was unavoidably absent from the
House, and was at that moment attending a public meet-
ing in a distant part of the country. The amendment to
which he referred had in view the confining the work in
factories, of young persons and young females, to ten
hours a day.
Mr. ELLIOT rose to move the following amend-
ment:—Clause 1, page 2, line 8, leave out all words after
the word " that," for the purpose of inserting these
words—" it shall not be lawful for young persons and
females to be employed or to work in any factory for
more than ten hours daily between half-past five o'clock
in the morning and half-past eight o'clock in the evening;
and it shall be lawful for said young persons and females
to work by sets or relays. Provided always, that each such
set or relay shall, during the hours between half-past five
in the morning and half-past eight in the evening, be
absent from the factory for a period of not less than
three consecutive hours. Provided always, that on
Saturdays the period of work of such young persons or
females shall not exceed eight consecutive hours, exclu-
sive of meal times, between the hours of half-past five in
the morning and four in the afternoon." The Honourable
Member proceeded to refer to the relay system at
pressnt adopted among the factory operatives of Rox-
burgh, Berwickshire, Selkirkshire, and Peebleshire.
Those persons were at present working contentedly and
happy, and earning good wages; but for some reason or
other they were now to be at once discharged from their
work and thrown on the parish for a subsistence. He
wished to know why such a calamity was to be in-
flicted on so largo a manufacturing district as that ?
Mr. Horner's reports stated that if it were possible to
keep the machines in mills going all through the twenty-
four hours it would be much more advantageous for all,
He protested against any law being passed which would
have the effect of placing the mills in his part of the
country on the same footing as the mills in the north of
England, which were generally owned by large capitalists.
The Bill as it stood would have a very injurious effect
upon the owners of watermills, for in winter time it was
impossible to say when the mills would commence
working, owing to the floods, and in dry wea-
ther, when they would be compelled to stop.
Indeed, he thought the Bill would ruin many
of the millowners, and be the means of throwing out of
employ a great number of labouring people, who would
have no other means of livelihood. Although he was
quite ready to admit that only one rule was to be ap-
plied to all mills and factories, yet he had to remind the
House that, while that one rule would not interfere
with the operations of one class of the persons who were
to be affected by the Bill, it would act in a very
injurious manner to another class.—(Hear.) He, there-
fore, thought it his duty to propose the amendment of
which he had given notice.
Sir G. GREY said the amendment of the Hon. Gen-
tleman was opposed to the whole spirit and purpose of
the Bill. He was quite ready to admit that a general
law of this kind must operate somewhat unequally in
different parts of the country; but that was an objection
not only to this Bill, but to the whole course of legisla-
tion on the subject, and his Hon. Friend had, in fact,
raised the whole question whether there should be
any legislation at all as to the duration of labour
in factories. If he thought mills worked by water-
power should be specially exempted, he ought to
have proposed a separate clause to that effect, and not
proposed a general alteration of the law, which would
have the effect of sanctioning the relay system through-
out the whole kingdom, subject, of course, to his sug-
gestion that the workers should have an interval of three
hours during the day. Rather than have the altera-
tion inserted in the Bill he would leave the pre-
sent law as it stood, because the effect in the
former case would be to keep the children employed in
factories away from their homes during a period of
fifteen hours. As to water mills, a cleuse would shortly
come under their consideration, which provided that
under certain circumstances mills might work until a
later hour, to make up for lost time arising from a too
deficient or a too abundant supply of water. But as the
amendment of the Hon. Gentleman would have the effect
of sanctioning the relay system throughout all the manu-
facturing districts, he felt bound to give it his opposition.
Mr. HEYWOOD said, if there was one thing in
factory legislation more to be deprecated than
another it was provisions of a partial nature.
He regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department should have given
the sanction of his name and the sanction of Government
to any departure from the Ten Hours Act.—(Hear,
hear.) Before the Right Honourable Baronet,
however, gave that sanction, ho ought to have
found out what really was his own meaning and the
meaning of the Legislature in reference to the Factory
Enactment. If the Right Honourable Baronet had
discovered that the intention of the Legislature was iu
favour of the relay system, the better course would
have been for Government to have introduced a Bill
declaring that henceforth the relay system should be
tolerated, though for his own part he was prepared to
vote for any proposition that would have the effect
of restoring the Ten Hours Act to its integrity.—
(Hear, hear.) He had sufficient confidence in the en-
terprise and stability of English manufacturers to be-
lieve that they could overcome almost every restriction
that might be imposed upon them by factory Acts, but so
long as so much uncertainty prevailed on the subject—so
long as the system was tolerated of having one law
this year and another next, it was impossible for them
to carry on their operations with success.—(Cheers.)
He approved of the Ten Hours Bill when it was passed,
and he did so now because ho believed the Bill
was for the protection of women and children
who were unable to protect themselves. (Hear,
hear, and cheers.) He never wished to place
any restrictions either upon manual labour or machinery,
and he was st,ll as hostile to that as ever; but as far as
regarded women and children, he was quite ready to
adopt restrictions for their safety.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ED W ARDS said he had the honour to represent
a large town in the West Riding, where he had lived
since the time he was born, and he thought he under-
stood the interest and feeling of that part of the coun-
try as well as any gentleman in the House.—(Hear,
hear.) When he had the honour of seconding the
declaratory Bill of the Noble Lord the Member for Bath
he hardly expected that he should ever have to say any-
thing in defence of it, recollecting as he did the elo-
quence and powerful arguments brought to bear upon it
by the Noble Lord himself. The Noble Lord had till
now advocated the cause of justice and humanity; the
Noble Lord had always been looked upon as the chasm-
pion of the factory operatives, and he for one could see
no reason why he should desert them now. The petitions
for and against the Bill presented the true feeling which
the country entertained upon this important measure;
the petitioners, in fact, were somewhere about 1,000 as
to 6, and the signatures appended to that petition in
proportion of 3 to 1,000. The great bulk of
tho population of both the West Riding and
Lancashire were perfectly satisfied with the declarations
of the Noble Lord, and if it had not been for a letter
published in the newspapers and signed " A Manufac-
turer," the vast proportion of the millowners would
have been perfectly reconciled to the Ten Hours Act as
it was intended when it was passed by the House.
Utter ruin had been predicted at the time of the passing
of the Ten Hours Bill, but all those predictions bad been
falsified. The factory operatives had not, as was pre-
dicted by many Hon. Members, spent the greater leisure
which had been given them in beer houses, but they
were found spending that leisure in reading-rooms or in
their cottage gardens.—(Hear.) The rule in Yorkshire
was to live and let live. The late Sir R. Peel, thirty-five
years ago, advocated a Ten Hours Bill, and since that
time the people in the manufacturing districts had been
carrying on a peaceful agitation, Ile (Mr. Edwards)
declared he would rather see the Bill thrown out alto-
gether than that those paltry amendments should be
embodied into it at the instance of the Government.
Lord ASHLEY denied that be had ever considered
himself the champion of the factory operatives, but he
had considered himself their friend—(Hear, hear)—
and he declared before God that he had done that which
he conceived to be best for their interests, in giving in
his adhesion to the Government Bill.—(llear, hear.)
Ho had sacrificed much of his time in advocating their
interests, and now it appeared he had sacrificed his re-
putation by giving his adhesion to that measure.—(Loud
cries of " No, no.") He would say in passing, that ho
had just received an address agreed to at a large meet-
ing of delegates, at Glasgow, which set forth that they
were fully satisfied with the zeal and self-devotion of
him (Lord Ashley), that they could not, for a
moment, imagine that he bad deserted their interests,
and that he had acted wisely in giving up the Ten Hours
Bill to secure the inestimable benefit to the fitotory ope,

might
ratives of leaving off work at six o clock. That
show public m,:a that amid all their difficulties and (il)"
appointments they had their consolations.—(ilear' 1,41e5v0t
The Noble Lord concluded by stating that he woulu
against the amendment.
Mr. W. BROWN supported the amendment. 11,
was quite ready to admit the zeal and talents of
o's
Noble 14,,rd who had just spoken, but he thought he ‘c3..
c

_ sp, " •
very much misinformed. There was a great *jilt °f d
ttlity to the manufacturing interest abroad which atte°3t rOges
to refer all the vices and miseries of the working,e'Llta
to the mills. It was said the manufacturingshowed
was the hotbed of vice, but the State Papers .til,
that the palm of vice was borne off by purely agrle
tural counties.
Mr. AGLIONBY said that the amendment, as
ole beft
derstood it, was entirely subversive of the wh 40111
of the Bill, and he should give it his most etre°
opposition. 1101
Mr. J. WILLIAMS observed that the petition 7; bsd
had been presented from Ha nick against the nil; bed
been got up by the millowners themselves, arbic!d sot
threatened to discharge their labourers if they °try be
sign it; and added that a public meeting of fact°"
bourers had aft, rwards repudiated the petition- „ toed
Mr. ELLIOT denied that coercion bad been
to procure signatures. rain;
Mr. B. DENISON said he believed the noble
classes in the West Riding felt grateful to the de
Lord for the efforts which he had made tidsaolle
a vexed and difficult question. He thought he uhlt bsd
wisely in accepting the compromise whic" ;be
been offered to him, and the operatives a' re.
country would have reason to thank him for the
mainder of their lives.—(Llear. t tibis
Mr. BROTHERTON did not hesitate lo say -sill 1 to
Bill would be more efficient and be more benemetbsea
the working classes than any other Bill which ha op•
passed into law, and he should give it his cordis tbst
port. He thought if they adopted the relay aisteiilealo
the Bill would be rendered a complete nallity---a
Mr. BRIGHT regretted that the time when sts"-foor
of that importance was introduced was not oile,-to o°,
able to its calm investigation. He-did hot watt", sls
into the general question of the Bill of 1847, bil"etaitte'
confine himself to the amendment before the
That question was not whether women and YeLutits 'he;
sons should work more than ten hours a day; o' %as
ther they should make it imperative on all adults to.
machinery not to work more than tea hours. Theeliiiefe
position of the Hon. Member for Roxburgh Would! the
the women and young persons, without restridloe
employment of adults and machinery to the sail toe'
ber of hours, and that was a proposition whiciti-jestore'
ceived to be well worthy the attention of the Leg's ~- 561'
It did not appear to him that the Hon. Member '°,"„011,
ford (Mr. Brotberton) understood the proposition °eald
The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State 'VI
inform them that he had many suggestions made t°,,,itb
with respect to relays, which would not interiereosa
the intention of the Legislature with respect to gas iD
and young persons. He did not think the House the
possession of a sufficient amount of information lie
subject to legislate against the system of relaTtiaati?
knew several instances, both in England and 'OO9
which he specified, where a large number of Pe pre'
would be at once thrown out of employment if °legate,
sent proposition were carried. He should, thergos,
give his cordial support to the proposition of tile
Member.—(Cries of " Divide.") oala
Mr. FOX said a motion for a Select Comndittee,lsfocs
re-open the entire question, which had been loead tbet
decided by Parliament.—(Hear.) They had headr
it was intended to stop the system of relays; an bead
while that was allowed, it would be impossible to P;to de
evasion of the law. All that the Committee hitootal
now, in his opinion, was to vindicate the faith andP,,, St'
of the Legislature.—(Hear.) The Bill of the
people,
country as a boon, and had been acted on, grateillii
one case and faithfully in an other. By that Bill ,t
manufacturers had not been injured, although the op etc
tives had been benefited.—(Hear.) Striving for ltd End`
working classes had done for so many years, aph ea a.
ing at last the advantages of it, it must have 'Jett°
great disappointment to them eventually to beloa
to
word of promise kept to the ear," and yet bro
wbica
them in reality.—(Hear.) If they took away that toa °l`
they had given to the operatives, they deprived td g$
that which was of the greatest value to them, 6/3, JO
it to those to whom it was of no value whatsoeve".,%hielt
hoped, therefore, an amendment would be resisted "toea
would go to nullify all the legislation which has e'')
place on that subject.—(Hear, and cries of " Dive eof °
Mr. S. CRAWFORD, as the representati/ t the
manufacturing locality, expressed his hope ths.oe it
House would not depart from the original intestic,eist'
had expressed, manifested, and acted upon, ie ine,7010,/
ing on that important question on a former occ""
(Cries of " Diitteevide.th") ea/
The Commen divided when there lIPPec--a f
For the amendment ...
„t 6
Against it ... •-• 201
Majority against the amendment ... ofte.
Lord ASHLEY then moved to insert in line l'„'oase,
the word " act," the words "no child." The,' OP
uence of the omission of these words would 'lea to
children of the tenderest years would be coniPe` while
come to work in the morning at half-past Bfe'beforl
adult women and young persons would not conie
six, and might be kept in the afternoon till 119,
eight, when adult females and young persons vle',,
missed at six. as tj,f
Sir G. GREY said the omission of the words crti
accidental, for the Bill abstained from all °Meath-elk
the law as far as regarded children, as did als°l,--iet,ro;
of his Noble Friend (Lord Ashley), to which, 'jab'
sent objection applied just as much as to this Oil" to
effect of his Noble Friend's amendment would be 10.,
troduce an additional limitation to the hours of 1st); 1°
Lord ASHLEY said his object was to sef-,1
children of tender years the same protection as e jar,
forded to adult females and young persons. Ile 0-ere
that a very largo proportion of the millowners
favour of his proposition. One of the first wee I°ool
Nester had written to him approving of the. I, Pk
which he bad taken, and declaring his convictt°ol;lc7,
public opinion would condemn a system ander r the"
children were made to work earlier and late
adults. iOO of
Mr. AGLIONBY had thought that the 05° oil,
the words arose from inadvertence; and be Ws.los iD
to hear the Right Hon. Baronet confess that it
the
tentional. that
Mr. EDWARDS said, the result would be f 00-
labour of children would be substituted for that '
peMr.n rsos. OP.
BRIGHT condemned the system o'reiKlic;
mentary interference in regulating the hours °t,, psC
"The amendment did not arise from syndPsta'
these children out of doors, but for she p
pose of covertly checking adult lah°tir,"aorte.
chinery, and steam-engines, which the stlre):
of the motion did not dare to d° late/
What had been the result of their fornierbodrer
ferenco but to increase pauperism precisely in: cpoee!.
of that age which came within the restrictions tie to
The only result of the Noble Lord's plan would 000 .1
crease the evil. He held in his hand a letter 130 chti
millowner who formerly employed as many as:ooll3hile.
dren under 13 years of age, stating that so 104%11/ 'o;
been the meddling of the inspector that he ";"
came disgusted and discharged thorn all. They ileancl'e
follow worse counsel than that of the Noble Lov atet
friends, who wanted to make the Factory Act eve
°lest
restrictive than it always was. r Jel
Mr. BROTHERTON amid that it would mitolito
recommendation to the Bill if it were made 11,.„eta s,,tlect
namely, if it stated that they were to work “-tit "'the
the morning until six in the evening. The greatitie 'so
of the opponents to the Bill appeared to be to -,,00400,
law. He would do all he could to make the -mid sEtbe
simple that all the world could understand it,' ct
he*lrre that none of the evils apprehends ch
Hon: ember for Manchester would ever arise:oti °do
Mr. MUN rz said that the work was done get 111.-0,
fine profits that the manufacturers wanted t,*()le to sir
work out of the children than they Were 11' 10
He would support the amen d ment.
better to leave c h
theoclee°
Sir G. GREY thought it 0'.,10
that protection which the law already ffo rdeu
a vepri
arr'
Mr. M. GIBSON said that this was aee e h
introduced into the Bill, which was wholly erticii-saehic"
to meet the object of the Noble Lord, , the
carried would have a most injurious tendenei'eut
Mr. WALTER thought that the amend he preeei'
Noble Lord was necessarily a corollary toet 0,09
00 dgo
Lion fur the limitation of adult labour. Jld
dedly in favour of the amendment.
Mr. STANSFIELD hoped that the Noble l'ii(iorLi statlce.
not press his motion, considering the oil.°
the pr.,o,rto
under which it was made.
Mr. TRELAWNY said, considering ths`.:ntiari°,'",t is
sition of the Noble Lord would be serioutill,"pere''
the labouring classes, he would consisteot`Yet• the
his opposition to all measures of this charae.tioo coatirs
Mr. SLANEY thought that the proPsit 030 /1 es'
Noble Lord would have the effect of limiting „salit 0
of labour and the working of machinery to 1° aPOe
would °Proof-1v
tirely, and, being of that opinion, he
interfering most injuriously with the works oitos it
Alderman SIDNEY supported the an3eo.",. 001, pet
Noble Lord on the ground of humanity' "`),,i50 a'
was agreed to, the children would have to '
o'clock in the morning to prepare for work-. el/
Mr. HEYWOOD opposed the amenclinee'•
opeat
The Committee then divided, when there 7:3
For Lord Ashley's amendment "" 1030
Against it ... ••• ." ..‘
BEST Majorityagainstithdrew
Lord ASHLEY said, in consequence of theiivisiot4,oo
which the Committee bad come on the late ic', aeotol
his thea m amendmentendmeu6 o•
decio ot
ti
Mr.to
felt himself relieved from the obligation svfefaia the
under in respect to the Bill. He WOti'd, 13°1:, pre"' ,
himself of the next favourable ppprunity r°
claims of those children upon tit( .11011,e. Noble effec'
Mr. BROTHERTON hoped ti at the, Dive
would persist in his exertions to render the f fro 0
tive as possible. its
Lord ASHLEY only wished to guard " tor tal'
being considered now under any obfigatie,nta
1:77•
at lior_4ooolo
it. Ile considered himself perfectly
any course be pleased with reference to this the
Sir G. GREY had always understood 41 tlieLot
Lord's intention to be to include childreilo`ofererbs'i
although ho had informed him that the le por" tb°
Nob _ _loft
would oppose such a proposition. The
a had l',,m:ll)`
acted most consistently throughout, as- she '
sense of the House upon his amendment, a to cld'
viously intimated to him (Sir G. Grey) h° If° 11°1'
The clauses up to 6 were then agreed to., tbo f° tbst
Mr. P. SCROPE moved the insertion o:eted, et
inQ clausei—, Provided always, and be it "3°oth cislibe
during all or part of the period between th'2 ail el the
September of any year and the Ist day 0:4;oov!pii
following year young persons and fem satur4,4
age of 18 years may be employed, except,o.te mot eta,
between the hours of seven of the clock ote_Tniog, 030
and seven of the clock of the vv.,odet .„0%
..ty
stead:of the hours hereinbe.gore -5 se ON 1,
following regtilotions And conditions Oh;