The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-22 00:00:00

IRELAND,

THE STATE

TRIALS.

FIFTH DAY.

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTERS.)

DUBLIN, FRIDAY, JAN. 19.

COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCH.
TIEF: QUEEN V. DANIEL. O'CONNELL AND OTHERS.

The Gmrt sat this morning at ten o'clock.
Mr. O'Csnnell, attired in the bar costume of a Queen's
Counsel, entered Court shortly before ten, and took his seat in
the inner bar.
The other two traversers were also punctually in attendance.
The jury having been called over, and answered to their
names.
Mr. Ross, whose evidence occupied a considerable portion of
yesterday, was again called and examined on the part of the
Crown by Sergeant Warren—He deposed that he was
present at a meeting of the Repeal Association, which
took place on the 28th of August ; that meeting was at-
tende 4 by three of the traversers—Mr. O'Connell, Mr.
John O'Connell, and
.Mr. Ray ; witness has a note of Mr.
O'Connell's speech on that occasion, in which he adverted
to a plan which he had introduced at some previous meeting,
for the reconstruction of the Irish Parliament.—( Read the ex •
tract in question from Mr. O'Connell's speech.) Has not in
his notes a copy of a letter read that day from Mallow, but
thinks he has a detailed manuscript copy of it. This manu-
script was written partly at the Association, and partly from
my notes.

Look and sec if you have a letter dated from Mallow, and
purporting to be written by Richard Barnet Barrey, which
was read at that meeting.
Witness (reading from his short-hand notes)—Mr.
O'Connell observed, on reading a letter containing subscrip-
tions that alluded to the Queen's speech, " that the speech
from the Throne was merely a 'Ministerial production, and
deserved to be characterised, as it was by the Morning
Chronicle, as the essence of stupidity." Ile then adverted
to the plan he proposed at the last meeting for the constitu-
tion of the Irish Parliament, and he said he would take up as
the basis of it the census returns of 1831, which could not be
supposed to have been framed for any purpose connected with
the repeal of the union. He was disposed to adhere to that
census, except where it was mentioned that some error existed
in the details. He Lad received a letter from Mallow—

Air. Sergeant WARREN—That's what I want.
that letter ?—I have not a copy of it ; it is not here.
Sergeant WARREN—WeII, we cannot help it. What did Mr.
O'Connell say in reference to that letter?—He said that he
thought that a fair case was made out for giving Mallow two
Members, and he proposed that the letter should be referred to
a committee, to inquire whether any change should be made
in thu plan with reference to that town, which was agreed to
after some further observations.

Where is

Mr. HESS—Have you any notes of what you call further
observations have read them. Witness continued to
read from his notes the speech of Mr. O'Connell, the ma-
terial parts of which are as follow :—" There are many
candidates for the Preservative Association. Gentlemen of
the first fortune and of the highest rank are daily proposing
to me that they should be named as candidates for it ; there
will be no difficulty whatever in getting 100 gentlemen.
I am speaking entirely by anticipation. 'We must keep
within the letter and spirit of the law. I am not at present
prepared, nor do I think it necessary, to open the scheme of
the Preservative Association ; but I am working out my
plan for the constitution of the Irish House of Com-
mons, when it shall be established by Act of Parliament,
or by the exercise of the prerogative of the Crown.
lam working slowly but surely. lam working for the Irish
nation, and want to satisfy them with my progress. I will give
way if any lyidy will show me that I have taken a false step—
the way to avoid it is to proceed gradually, and therefore I will
confine myself to the appointment of Repeal Wardens."
Were you present at the Association on the 29th of August,
the following day ?—Yes.
Now, will you look at your notes, and say how many of the
traversers were present ?—I have none but Mr. O'Connell on
my notes.
Did Mr. O'Connell, upon that occasion, say anything on that
part of the Queen's speech relative to her determination to
maintain the union between England and Ireland ? He said,
" It is now my duty
Mr. IiENN—Is that the beginning of his speech ? Wit-
ness—lt is.
Mr. HENN—Did you take full notes of what occurred at
that meeting, and the one before it ?—I took a full note' of
various matters that occurred.
Mr. HENN—Where is that note ? I have not a full note of
all that occurred. If you will allow me I will explain.
Mr. HENN—I would rather you would answer me. Did
you take full notes of such portions as you thought material ?
—Yes.

Have you those notes here ?—Yes.
Those are the short-hand notes ?—Yes.
Mr. HENN (addressing the Court)— I respectfully submit
that he is not at liberty to use those notes.
Sergeant Wwititax"—Mr. Henn, my Lord, is under a mis-
conception.
Mr. HENN—Pardon me, I am not.
Mr. Justice CE.A3trroN—What is the exact effect of what
the witness has said?

Mr. HENN—He said he did not take full mites of all that
passed at that meeting, but only such portions as appeared to
him to be material. I submit that he is not to be a judge of
materiality, and that he must have the whole proceedings on
his notes in order to give evidence on any part.
Sergeant WA IMEN—I will leave it to the Court.
CHIEF JITSTICE-If the witness swears that he gives the
substance of what was :o spoken, according to the best of his
skill and judgment, the Court will admit that evidence—other-
wise no note could be admissible that the witness was not able
to swear was literatim et verbatim.

Mr. HENN—We don't require liberatinz et verbatim ; but
we require the substance of all that passed, and without the
whole he is not entitled to give evidence of any part.
Sergeant WARREN—That is certainly the most novel posi-
tion I ever heard asserted.

Mr. Justice BuazoN—Suppose that no note had been taken
at all, but that a witness came to give evidence of certain
things he heard said, would not that be adrnissable although
he might not recollect every word?
Mr. Justice CRANtrroN—Aye, or every sentence ?
Mr. Justice BURTON—If the witness was present at a time
when particular expressions were made use of by particular
persons. surely that would still be evidence?
Mr. HENN—That would be a very different thing, for in
that case we might examine his memory; but, if a person
goes deputed, as the witness announced he was, by the Govern-
ment, and takes notes, he ought to be able to produce them—
not garbled extracts. We are entitled to the whole of what
passed at that meeting, and not to part.
Sergeant WaititEN—The witness has said that he took a
full note.
Mr. I-lEss—lle has said that he took notes of such portions
as he thought material.
Sergeant WARREN (to witness)—Have you taken a, note, to
the best of your skill and judgment, of Mr. O'Connell sspeech
on that occasion?— I have. I believe I have the entire. I
can always tell when I have taken a thing consecutively, and
when I have taken only the heads of the subject ; the Govern-
ment accepted my services on one condition.
Mr. lIENN—Now, don't make a speech. I object, my
Lord, to this witness going on. He swears be did not take all
of the speech.
Sergeant WARREN—If Ido not mistake, he swore he had
taken a full note.

Mr. HENN—Pardon me--
Mr. O'CONNELL—Let Sergeant Warren ask the question
again.
Sergeant WARREN (to witness)—Have you taken the entire
of that speech ?—I know I have, because it's all consecutive.
Mr. HENN—AII consecutive !
Witness—l can always tell when I have taken only a branch
of a speech.
Witness then took up a bundle of notes.

Mr. HENN—Now, tell me are those full notes, or loose ab-
stracts, in them ?—I cannot depose to a fact of which I know
nothing.—( Roars of Laughter. )
The witness, in reply to Sergeant WARREN, said I have
not as yet seen my notes at all, so that there may be a blank
in them, or there may not be a blank in them.
Sergeant WARREN—Look at your note-book, and say if you
have taken an entire note of Mr. O'Connell's speech on that
occasion or not ? ( The witness looked at his note•book for
some time and said) don't think I have a full note of all
that occurred that day ; but I have taken such a note as enables
me to give a description of it.
Sergeant WARREN—I submit, my Lord, we are entitled to
have this evidence, and it will then be for the jury to say how
they *ill receive it.
Judge Prams—Did you observe the last answer the witness
has given?—He says he did not take a full note of the
speech,but such a mote as would enable him to give a description.
Mr. ii r.mx— And I submit that is not evidence, because he
eannot say anything except what is in his notes, and he admits ;
he did not take a MU note of the speech.