The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-14 00:00:00

vac, that if they wee'“lel less they would get snore, that He had never supported the corn-laws., either in or out of
they hal no•libe,7 to do but to make what was cheap the Heuse, exc2pt as a necessary protection to native
dear to seeere better wages. They reversed the rube agriculture ; and he could not forget that the first claim
upon which the eeenlry, hal been acting fur the last lam- upon their protection was from the weak and help'es.—
dred years. He behoved that they themselves would I (Cheers.) He could assure the Noble Lord, that how-
be the first to suffer—first in their wage:;, ever weak, he would find in him a sincere advocate of
afterwards in the increased price of everything the measure which he had proposed.
which they had to perehase, and lastly through Mr. LAI3OUCHEIZE said that considering the im-
the ~hock which would be e:iven to forcing a trade. The prtance of the interest then at stake he could not re-
Hon. Member- for Liskeard complimented the Noble coneile it to his conscience not to say a few words by
Lord caution displayed in his proposal. Ile said way of restating the reasons which would influence his
that ti it'sing coel.l be ea,ier than fur them to retrace vote. He had listened with great attention to the de-
their WhY, he believed those wee hardly an in- bates on that subject, and Ivith special attention to the
eta nee In Cie cemmereial history of this country in which speech of the Hon. Member for leambelh, believing that
a lust trade ha 1 b- en recevered. lie was much more if he failed to convince him that his views were right,
inelhal to sa, with the lion. Member for Pontefract, that nothing else could produce that result. But he con-
the Nellie Lord en I those who supported him, had lit a fussed that he was a good deal surprised at the ground
Title h the c )untry, and lie was glad that that taken by his him. Friend. What did his speech amount
ese had the pewer to put an extinguisher upon it. to? He said that this measure, taken singly, was
He could not aeyee wish the Noble Lord the Member for fraught with the most appalling danger ; if the
Sein lerlaed, that the Gn t overment ha acted in a despo- Ileuse were not prepared to follow up this measure by
t
meneer by refusing to take on themselves the respon- other great extensive changes, that this Hearse must re-
sibility or a mee,ure which they disapproved. He sort to other measures to provide against a reduction of
theeeht they had aetel in a most constitutional. upright, wages. lie would yield to no man in a desire toand henourahle manner; they lied certainly greatly raised see the corn-laws of this country put upon, what
thorn in his i:stimatlon by the course they had pus- he conceived to be, a sounder footing than they
sued. here never was a question in which the feelings and were at present, but he shuddered at the prospect of
‘,f: the people were more deeply interested, or a people thrown out of employment, and of all
more ea .
e.e.Y 'nought into energetic and vehement the frightful results which so great a change in the
aetjolL
trusted the present discussion would teal to manufacturing system of this country would produce.—
the. ,ads) of free-trade principles, for he felt eon- (Hear, hear.) Even if remelial measures were adopted,
winced, that when these principles were brought into be doubted whether they were justified in • interfering
praetica! ()peeatien, when England would be the cheap- by legislative enactment with the labour market.—(hear„
est " well as the most productive country in the world hear.) Hon. Gentlemen said it would be all very well
—whet' ford iv is abundant, and at a moderate price— to oppose the ten hours' clause if they
ll° 'huger nee Ihe apprehended from foreign competi- had never interfered with factory labour at
ti :e.!!; and -the operative would care little whether it was all, but having interfered in certain particulars,
Ten Hoars' or a Twelve Hour."' Bill that was passed the question was now only one of degree, and no evil
through thet House.—(Cileers.) consequence would result from extending the principle
Mr. AI'GEACHY said he considered this a very of interference. He believed that by their interference
the important question. He did not consider the arguments up to that point, they had done more good than harm—
ofßight Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for (Hear, hear)—but an interference so violent as that pro-
the Rome Department, however specious and plausible posed, had never yet been attempted; and he, for one,
they might have been, were on hetprinciples, would riot take upon himself the responsibility of voting
for ts, es. based
the," n'ght Hen. Baronet's argument, if good for any- for such an experiment.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed,
j,-01„g2 showed the propriety of non-interference with la- he was astonished to hear Honourable Gentleman talk
t-e-j' whereas the Right Hon. Baronet's policy had a di- of this measure as an experiment, and argue that if the
faeteYeotstrary effect. He (lie. AUG.) visited several of the experiment proved a failure, they might easily retrace
sev..r3' districts in company with Mr. Horner, and put their steps. Did they really know what failure meant?
of he questions to factory labourers; but the substance —(Hear, hear.) Failure meant the loss of trading ; and
asweekquestions was this : Which would eon prefer, I•'s. foreign trade, once lost, was not easily recovered.—
~ fi
it-week end work twelve hours daily ;or have lee (Hear, hear.) Failure meant the want of employment—
was and work ten hours daily ? The general answer the demoralisation of the work. people. He entreated
nisi. a preference for the diminished pay and the dirni- the House, then, not to legislate on this subject in the
eh fled hours of labour. A weaver, aged 32, when asked spirit of experiment.—(ll-ear, hear.) If they were sa-
e question, said he preferred the smaller wages and tisfied that the change would be beneficial let them at
the lighter Work - for, said he, what I earn by the extra once yield to the Noble Lord's proposal ; but if they had
hours I pay in doctor's bills.—(Loud cries of " Hear, any doubts on the subject, he entreated them to pause
hear.") Another operative, aged 24, a dresser, had six before they enacted measures from which he believed
children, three of whom could not work. He said he had there was no retreat.—(Hear, hear.) .Much had been
talked over the matter with his wife, and they preferred said in the course of those debates as to the effect which
lower wages and less work. The Hon ,Gentleman quoted a Ten Hours' Bill would have upon wages. He had, he
the opinions of several operatives, all of which were in confessed, a great distrust of all nice calculations
favour of the short hours aid the short wages. Amongst on subjects of that kind ; yet he thought it was
others, that of a young woman, who was blind of an eye. not difficult to foresee how this measure would act. He
and who supported an aged mother, and she preferred thought it had been demonstrated that the Noble Lord's
shorter hours of labour, that she might have an reduction must, if not at once, progressively and cer-
oeportunity of going to church oftener. Really (said tainly reduce wages. They were told that this question
the Hon. Gentleman), a much higher tone of philosophy had been fairly put to the operatives, whether they
Prevails among the humble classes in the manufacturing would accept it even with the prospect of reducing
districts than is generally supposed. In short he came wages. Now he did not believe that this (pies-
bac+ from the manufacturing districts with the most tion had ever been fairly stated to the opera-
Lvourlble impression of the intelligence and right- fives.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Oastler, at a meeting
mindedness of the inhabitants. He had been assured held in Blackburn, told them he did not think the
that Yo me men and women, even to the ages of twenty- change would reduce wages ; " but supposing it would,"
nsh.eo,a lsri, 1 c thirty, were constant attendants of Sunday- he asked, " were they, the men of Blackburn, willing to
Selo
and they preferred being pupils to teachers that support the Bill ?" The reply was, " Yes, we are."
the
ny might have greater opportunities of improvement. Would any one say this was evidence as to what
.There certainly was great difference of opinion among the feelings of the operatives would be in
the master manufitcturers regarding the propriety of case a reduction took place ?—(Hear, hear.)
tominishing the hours of laboar, but he must say, in He was afraid that the tendency of wages in this country
Justice to this class, that there was a strong feel- was downwards. If they were dealing with a country
log in favour of a diminution in the hours of toil in which they were buoyant and increasing, the case
Prevalent amongst them. This country had already would, he admitted, be different. lie believed that this
voted twenty millions for the emancipation question, if carried, would not be confined to the facto-
of the slaves, and the Government went so far on that ries. Ten hours' labour meant ten hours' sale of coal,
?neesion as to regulate the hours of labour. Why, then, ten hours' traffic upon the canals and railways ; and let
hesitate so much about putting the same principle into him tell the country gentlemen it also meant ten hours'
operation in the manufacturing districts, where it was consumption of provisions and of flour. It was said that
" imperatively required? He trusted, as he believed in this country we had arrived at an artificial state of
that there was a growing disposition in favour of the society, which called for a new course of legislation. He
111" r, that the desire would increase, to carry out, was nut disposed to agree with that assertion. He was
ration
reference to party feelings, measures of amelioe not disposed to displace from his library the works of
fir the moral, physical, and intellectual condition Adam Smith, and to substitute for them those of Mr,
of the people. Sadler and Mr. Oastler.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
Mr. M. SUTTON said the Hon. Member who had in an artificial state of society it would be more dangerous
Just sat down had correctly stated the answers of the to depart from sound principles than in the rudest state.
el)eratires ; but he had not stated that by far the greater —(Hear, hear) It might be supposed from the state-
eumber of the operatives, seventy out of a hundred, in meats of the supporters of this measure, that women
e ftet, sail they would not willingly bear a diminution in were never before subjected to toil, and that men were
tzr waees. He contended that the operatives them- never taxed in their labour beyond their strength. But
e e'ves gave but a qualified and partial support to the had they not read the beautiful lines of the Latin, poet,
ee
14'Voshien of the Noble Lord. They believed, also, that written 1,800 years ago ?
itees would rise by the limitation of the hours of labour. Sopitos suscitat ignes,
however, believed that this was a result which could Noctem addens open, eastum ut servare cubile
not take fence. The impossibility of wages rising had been Conjugis, et possit parvos educere natos,
a•r`'dY fully established ; the proposition was a diminu- —(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if they inter-
oft;:d the productive power of the country, and to such posed in the way proposed they would make matters
oxtent than
, that the whole reduction of the exports it worse an they were.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted that
Louwould amount to 4,500,0001., or nearly one the measure was so much desired among the working
0!.. the wlople export trade of the country. Would classes as was represented. He was convinced it was
the%'" tell him. then, that this was but an alteration in not so much desired as was some years ago a measure
eeteils of the system? With respect to the opera- regulating a minimum of wages.—(llear.) lie thought
en e,3, lhetrrelves, it would have a most detrimental effect it should be the maxim of a wise legislator to act for the
than "t, as it would subtract from their wages no less many rather than with the many ; and he believed that
83em7 14eL , • The evil effect of this would not if this was carried the working classes themselves would
Stop a 3 ear.
wllei them, it would extend to the shopkeepers, and be the first to turn round and accuse the Legislature of
'..le whole trade of the manufacturing districts. He was yielding to demands which were founded in injustice and
at alos to conceive how the misery and destitution of would end in disappointment.
the manufacturing classes could be alleged as a reason Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that the delusion :to
for the diminution of their wages. It should be remem- which his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the
bored that the distress of 1841 was not caused by over- Home Department had alluded, was occasioned in some
Work, but by the want of work and reduced wages. A part by the Right Hon. Baronet himself, who stated on
proposition was once made in that House, by the llon. his own authority, that the proposition of his Noble
Member for Knaresborough, for granting a million of Friend Lord Ashley would not have the good conse-
Meney to the manufacturing labourers ; yet this was a quences expected from it. He (Mr. W.) was unwilling
sum not much exceeding what it was now proposed to. to allow this debate to pass over without taking an up-
take from them.—(Hear, hear.) portunity of stating the reasons why he adhered to the
Mr. B. HA WBS sail, the arguments of the Hon. course which he had already taken, although he felt
Gentleman who had just spoken, had the common pain in opposing a Government in which in other matters
Nritee of all the areurneuts on that side of the question. had the fullest confidence. But as he had arrived at a
je'° same arguments would apply against all Legis- full conviction of the necessity for such a measure as
interference whatever. The question he had to was proposed by his Noble Friend, he must support him,
ask himself was this—was the that
a Practicable at whatever sacrifice of his personal feelings. It was now
measure ?—what were the evils that must necessarily forty-two years,since this subject was first brought under
flow from it e—and were there any benefits to be de- the consideration of Parliament, by a man well-known to
mired from it ? He did not look on it as a single, the House and the country, the late Sir Robert Peel. At
Isolated measure, but as one of many measures that time children were employed only as piecers,
Which this House must be prepared to dis- but since then they had been introduced to other and
cussi and perhaps, ultimately to pass.—(Hear.) more laborious departments, and women had been
the had no doubt they might with perfect security limit employed to such an extent, as to displace the
? hours of labour if they had a free trade and a fair men from their proper place in society, and to
'eld for their industry.—(Hear, hear.) He did not lower their wages. In other kinds of employment—
look on this question as an isolated one. Perhaps it such as carpenters, masons, &c.—the men were employed
entlid
.not be justified in itself, but he was sure that only twelve hours a day, including an hour and a half
oilier measures must flow from it which would render or two hours for refreshment. Why, then, should chil-
e evils expected as the consequence of it, vain and dren and women be required to work a greater number
"aleatory. The object of political economy was to in- of hours ?—(Hear, hear.) But in many cases where the
crease the wealth of a nation; but legislation must take children worked twelve hours, they did not reach home
the morals of a nation as its object. (The Hon. Gentle- for two hours after their parents. But the fact was,
marl then quoted Mr. Mills to show that neither body nor that in Leeds and other places, some of the millowners
leind could be engaged in labour for too long a period had reduced the hours to eleven, and had found that by
e'inut . affecting the morals or happiness of a doing so they actually got more work done than when
ee) He admitted difficulties surrounded the the time was twelve hours. He had himself presented
ell"it on all sides. Great evils had been a petition signed by 300 masters, in which they stated
ftreelletea from the appointment of inspectors, and that twelve hours, wills the deduction of two
e was said the manufacturers would give up their hours fur rest and refreshment, was as much.
which in consequence of the supervision to labour as children and women should be subjected to.
"'eh they were subjected, but none of those evils had When they saw that so many millowners could reduce
beeneo verified. No person liked to be restricted.—(lronical their hours of labour from twelve to eleven, he thought
et: ere-) Great stress had been laid on the reduction it showed that to establish that as a standard of labour
eat Wages which would follow from this measure. He in mills would be attended with success. In Sheffield
‘-‘, flitted that mitch reduction would take place, but it there liad been a shortening of the hours of labour for
(flu: l" the power of the House to more than compensate the purpose of equalising the work, and no bad results
011',? for that loss, as be would prove. The Mayor had ensued. He considered the Bill of the Noble Lord
seCatlehester had published a statement which showed would have a great effect on the morals of the people in
1,41. t pressed most on the means of the working classes. the manufacturing districts, and he would give it his
Ite- articles which took most of their Wages from support.
em Were bread and meat, butter, and potatoes.—(Hear.) Mr. BRIGHT then rose to address the House. Al-
vo utile taxes on those articles were removed they though it might be inconvenient that so much time
th save 22 per cent, of their earnings. He would should be taken up on this subject during the present
emethmake this measure a lever, by which to effect session, yet he thought that the House would come mto
greater good, and he had no hesitation in so the decision that no time had been wasted upon it as far
awing. use of it. The mother of the family would be as it affected the well-being of the country. The
this,
devote more of her time to her domestic concerns; House, he was sure, wonld not make any law
Ail
also, would be a saving to the working man. to interfere with labour in- factories, unless it was
e tat, deal had been said of the loss of the foreign satisfied there was a necessity for it. When the Noble
but
k
but Q Why the same thing had been predicted before, Lord first brought the subject forward, it was clear to
e their foreign trade had not suffered. On him the House could not legislate upon it, because he
teesie°ntrary, the foreign trade was never so ex- had placed the matter on the humanity view of the ques-
* if lb". There was no fear of' their foreign trade tion, throwing. out of sight altogether the commercial
eeeseenY would only remove those restrictions which at point of view of the question. He was sure it must be
t confined and restricted it. There was no in- clear to every person that it would be useless to legis-
teoetd in which restrictions from trade had been re- late for humanity alone. In his (Mr. Bright s) opinion
sPrifes that the trade of the country did not immediately the Noble Lord had made out no ease for the utter-
er eise leeward. Such had been the effect of the policy ference of the House, because his statements had been
xQ e • Iluskisson, and the same would prove true now. based upon documents with which be had been furnished
hP e,Z1,141 give the Right Hon. Gentleman data, which by others, which contained most gross exaggerations
tier,
alto
do well if he followed. This was not a ques- not borne out by facts. The Noble Lord had read to
,aiiit,!l,llltlollgielthther of a Ten Hours' because the propo- the House a document purporting to come from the
e Noble Lord was equivalent to an Eleven operative delegates in Lancashire, and which
a Teri i; hut he was not sorry that it was treated as was signed by a person named Higgenbottom ;
as ee 'Tours Bill. Looking to the measure, not and a document had also been laid before them coming
isolated one, as he before said, but from eight of the principal millowners in Lancashire.
ether g at it as one that must be followed by The first document to which he had adverted com-
The Intun!easures, believing that it would improve menced with an attack upon Mr. Ashworth, of Bolton,
ina classes--that
and intellectual condition of the work- stating that be was the foremost of the class of Lancashire
count '—that the trade and manufactures of the manufacturers who objected to the amelioration of the
Teem rie,:n_evottld not be placed in danger if the Govern- condition of the working classes in that part of the
- with slowed a sound and wise course of legislation country. The House knew the character of that gen-
lessee tho h to cora and sugar—that it would tend to tleman too well to require of him a refutation of those
r hostility of the people to the social state (they statements, for that if it was necessary he might appeal
ago,
andeetohlloe:gtitihteilsetrike which took place a short time to the Rev. B. Noel, to many Members of that House,
iseo disturbances had been put down, and to the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire
sol these nthteint of the people still remained) ; looking to himself. But there was no necessity that he should do
orded thins he thought that an opportunity was nosy so. It was sufficient for him to say that when Mr.
nnd eee byevhich they might effect great social good, Ashworth went to the part he now resided at it was a
tie
was
convinced
etke affections of the working classes. complete wilderness, and it was now a complete
taight be su in his own mind, that whatever evils garden, with a great number of excellent cot-
rth, the ry rsiv
aCaStbedtohuelri,k likely to flow from this limitation of tages. Now in the document that purported
they would honestly and sin- to come from the operative delegates of Lancashire, there
nose
Werashwsvouloudldb social improvement of the people, was a diagram, for the purpose of showing the distance
nefits eas nothing compared with the be- the piece•ma.kers had to walk, and that diagram con-
-11. Lord POLLINGTuIt from the change. veyed a most erroneous notion of what the facts were.
ON said, that on every occasion If the Noble Lord hail ever been in a mill, he must be
ithe r toof
thheehsade giveni
thosera
went Which 0 Lord ; but when he found a Govern- walk thirty-eight miles a day, which was impossible.
their
n;deeabseehne pheadrplaenxaelydsiend
had never shown a disposition to force The Noble Lord had been invited to accompany Mr.
1- NY° plans against the opinions of the House, he Greg over his mill, but he declined to do so unless in
Members of the
tthheegemrxeat
jaretermeiteeym., During the Easter company with the delegates, and this Mr. Greg declined
leliT the commercial towns empire, and the Members for
thoevtd,nsfoundi because those very persons had applied to him the most
cities of the
C
supported he •and opprobrious epithets most undeservedly. No employment
him that the e
. period of tea h
the sinews could safely Yorkshire, was more advantageous to the. workmen than those con-
Medical men had informed netted with the power-loom in cotton factories in Lance-
muchs
uosut
sustain.—
w(arls
been plainly intimated b
as as shire. He had no doubt the power-loom weavers had less
It had
sal(Sir J. Graham) that
toner —,--eat%) toil than the hand-loom weavers. With respect to the mill-
if
the the Right Hon. Ba- owners' document, they had stated that which he (Mr.
were carried, the Noble Lord's propo-
be corn-laws Bright) knew to be true. Seven of the millowners stated
did say that if the ws must be repealed. Then
• foundationthat the piece-maker walked 16 miles a day, while
, he should b
eeorn-laws did rest on so rotten a one stated it was 20 miles ; but as to 38 miles, it was
vote for their repeal. first man in the Ho to •
use
the
from the Opposition.impossible for any one to do so for days together. There
) were many other parts of the diagram that were equally