The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN,

—.-------_____;_
Lhuys it should be referred back to the governments,
should aria© on the question of amount, then said M.
de
u dreprisals should not be resumed, but if the differ-
aenceshould be upon principles, reprisals should neces-
sarily follow. Mr. Wyse, in ie vindication which he
i thought it necessary to give of his own conduct, and
which also would be found in the papers on the table,
stated that he had no cognisance that any convention
would be likely to be concluded in London. Nor was
it likely that he could have had any such knowledge,
and though the French Minister, General Lahitte, had
thought it necessary to read a letter in the Assembly
which had occasioned some dissatisfaction, that Minister
himself now admitted that Mr. Wyse could have had no
knowledge of any such convention, and fully acquitted
him in the matter. But the Noble Lord had said, why
not when the convention was concluded in London, at
once have adopted it, instead and in spite of any treaty
concluded by Mr, Wyse at Athens. He (Lord Lans-
downe) had no hesitation in saying that it would have
been most desirable if that could have been done, but
there was this difficulty. The convention which had
been agreed to at Athens had been already partly exe-
cuted, and besides, it contained a particular clause with
respect to certain new claims, which were not referred
to in the treaty of London. And if that treaty without
explanation or condition, or communication between the
parties had been altogether abrogated, there would have
been an a Imission in that abrogation of the expediency
or justice of conceding most unfounded claims, which
under no circumstances would it have been possible for
this country to have admitted; but it was the desire of
both sides to come back to the terms of the Convention
of London, so far as they could be made the basis of a
settlement with the Greek Government. It was out of
these circumstances that the difference which had given
rise to the communications which had taken place during
the last fewweeks arose,and which had not yet been brought
to a perfect conclusion, but which he had the satisfac-
tion of stating was so nearly brought to a satisfactory con-
clusion that many days, perhaps many hours, would not
elapse before such a conclusion would be come to—
(Hear, hear)—and the good understanding and confi-
dence between this country and France, whatever party
might be in power, be perfectly restored. Whatever
might be the character of the French Government, there
was no character it could assume in which it would not
be the interest of this country to maintain the most
friendly relations with it.—(Loud cheers.) He knew of
nothing—he foresaw nothing—he hoped even there was
nothing in the discussion of that evening which could
tend in the least to interpose an obstacle to the restore-
lion
and perfect resumption of those relations of amity
between the two countries which was so essential to the
peace and happiness of the whole world.—(Cheers.)
He trusted that the delay which had taken place in the
final settlement of the question between Greece and this
country had not been injurious to the best interests of
the former. He could assure the Noble Lord that
the statements of the extent of the pressure
which had been placed upon Greek commerce
had been more exaggerated than Pacifico's
claims, and he would take the opportunity before he sat
down of adding, that far from there being any intention
to press hardly on the Greek people and the Greek Go-
vernment, it was for the express purpose of avoiding
such pressure that, contrary to the usual custom pur-
-1 sued in such cases, and pursued iu the instances to which
he had alluded, of employing force at once, a warning
was given to the Greek Government before any hostile
proceedings were adopted. And though an embargo
was in the end laid upon Greek commerce, it was con-
fined to the enforcing of the indemnity demanded, and
was to stop the moment that indemnity was obtained.
He believed that no serious injury had resulted to Greek
commerce from that embargo, and up to the last mo-
ment the most perfect harmony existed between Admiral
Parker and the Greek people and Government, and be-
tween our force and the persons engaged in commerce in
those seas, and but for the proceedings taken in the
Greek Chamber, there would have been a more speedy
settlement of the questions at issue. It should be remem-
bered that with regard to some of these claims there was
no independent tribunal before which it could have been
preferred ; and even at the present moment, to show
that the tribunals of the country were not such as could
give a foreigner the most perfect security, especially in
a cause against the Government, it was only necessary
to state that all the Judges might be at any moment
dismissed. He considered this was one of those cases
in which the Government of this country had been
fully justified in having recourse to those proceedings
(unfortunately ending in the employment of force) by
which they had attempted to obtain justice for
the wrongs of their subjects ; and in his con-
science he believed, that not one of those wrongs, dis-
puted in amount as they were, but undisputed
in principle, would have been redressed, it the
Government had not sent out Admiral Parker and his
fleet to enforce such redress.—(Cheers.) Under these
circumstances he appealed to the Noble Lord and their
Lordships whether they would adopt a resolution which
he again said was an innovation of the law of nations. If
that resolution were adopted in the terms proposed it
would go far to limit the commerce and the industry of
this country in future times, and in so far as a resolution
in the House of Lords, unaccompanied and unsupported
by that of any other assembly in Great Britain, could
change the law, it would restrain the power and cripple
the resources and the energies of the people, and of indi-
viduals residing for the purposes of commerce, and for
the interests of this country in foreign states, and fetter
the future energies of the British Government in afford-
ing protection to its subjects. lie confidently called upon
their Lordships to reject the resolution.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, it was all very well
for Noble Lords to assume the tone of confidence, and
f, r the partisans of her Majesty's Government to la-
bour in their defence ; but he (Lord Aberdeen) main-
tained, that when they were told that a British fleet of a
magnitude, as described by his Noble Friend, equal to
that of Nelson in the battle of the Nile, appeared in the
waters of Greece, and, after receiving the civilities of ,he
Sovereign, summoned the Greek Minister, presented to
him the British Plenipotentiary, and the British Ad-
miral delivered to him a list of demands which were to
be conceded in fJur-and-twenty hours, and when that
unfortunate functionary observed that he had only been
in office three weeks, and that he required to ex-
amine into the justice of those claims, he was
told that the question was not whether the
claims were just or unjust, but whether they were
to be acknowledged in four-and-twenty hours, and
that that was the question for his decision—with that
statement it appeared to him (Lord Aberdeen) that the
character of the transaction was sufficiently described,
and he ventured to say that the proceedings of her
Majesty's Government in the waters of Greece, had
throughout the whole of Europe, from ono end of it to
the other, called forth a cry of indignation, and that in
this country they had been regarded by every impartial
and reflecting man with regret and disapprobation.—
(Cheers.) When these transactions occurred they ap-
peared to the world in general to be unintelligible.
Nobody could believe that the reasons assigned for these
proceedings were the true and genuine motives by which
the Government was actuated, and he was not surpirsed
that in every country in Europe there wore speculations
with regard to some great design being concealed under
this attack upon Greece. Unfortunately, the people in
this country, who knew a little more of the reckless
mode in which affairs of this sort were conducted, had
less difficulty in believing the motives that were as-
signed—(hear, hear)—and saw in it no policy more
profound than that of exercising a feeling of hostility
and the display of an overwhelming force.—(Cheers.)
l'hey might perceive the animating spirit that in a
great measure prompted this mode of proceding in a
paper to which he meant to direct their attention.
Last autumn a revolt had taken place in the island of
Cephalonia, and Sir Henry Ward, in a speech addressed
to this Senate, had referred to the share which he said
the Greek Government had in stirring up disturbances
i s that island. It was upon the 9th of October that
Sir EL Ward made that speech—that speech in which he
declared " the Greek Government had been privy to the
disturbances that had taken place in Cephalonia." No
sooner had this been stated than the Greek Government
lost no time in protesting against the truth of any such
accusation; and then in the course of the next month,
he expressed publicly his regret—he did this in a public
address—that his speech should have been so misunder-
stood, for he declared that he never had intended to
make any such accusation against the Greek Govern-
ment.—(" Hear," from the Marquis of Lansdowne.)
The Noble Marquis, he perceived, cheered at that state-
ment. Lle was very glad to find the Noble Marquis so
cheer it; but what said the Secretary of State to M.
Drouyn do I'Huys, who gave an account of the conver-
sation with the Secretary of State? He mentioned the
Secretary of State as replying to him that the English
Government had other complaints against the Hellenic
Government; for example, that in spite of the contrary
assertions which policy had induced Sir Henry Ward to
make, it was very certain that the hand of the Greek
Government had been found in the agitation that had
broken out amongst the people of the Cephalonian
islands.—(llear.) His Noble Friend hail so frilly en-
tered into all the claims put forward, one after another,
by her Majesty's Ministers—he had exposed so com-
pletely the doubtful character of some, and the exagge-
ratedt nature of others, that it was not necessary for him
but. Noble
n enlarge
rr
got hula three
set heheao bds as
remer r
a°v observations
c, tt.
uponh He e
claimtwh oeuml
.do
f First,m haver . t onms a
Finlaykh
ee
Aberdeen)und er an
wasarbitrary
ffi
constitution was established, and at the
time that Gre
government.noffice,
iu r.Fin..
n.i him by demanding the good offices
ti Government.T
jesty's Government; buptotnhethe
claim upon her Majesty's then Mr.
ajust claim for compensation,
and therefore a claim u
here could be no doubt
but that Mr. Finlay had
good offices of her Ma-
:aenrndmhent for reprisals
- against the Greek Government
Finlay never made a
The Greek Government
never denied that he had an equitable claime? compen-
sation. The only difference was as to the anaeto
unttooia' hbiis
claim. At last, the matter had been referred
tration. The fact of that having been done was rno;
communicated to that House, and they conse.
quently had been led to believe that the claim of Mr.
Finlay was denied, and that there was no chance of its
being adjusted at the time that Mr. Wyse made his de-
mand.—(Hear.) As to the case of M. Pacifico, he
(Lord Aberdeen) did not deny that he had a claim to
for reprisals, nor for this
indemnity for losses be had sustained; but, then, this
compensation for him. until had
gave him no right to apply
country so to obtain cornp
endeavoured to obtain it by the ordinary mode of pro-
to ask
for repri-
sals,tionably just, still to enable the subject
ceeding. Taking the case to be one that was unques-
tionably
h h
laws and the courts of the country in w lc e was
he must, have exhausted all the means which the
Vattel said with
wronged might have afforded to him•
referemce to foreigners:—
causes of his subjects in foreign countries, and to grant
" The prince, therefore, ougbt not to interfere in the
them his protection, excepting in cases where justice is
refused, or palpable and evident injustice done, or rules
and forms openly violated, or, finally, an odious distinc-
ti94 mettle to the prejaice of hie subjects QX ef

for ho had admitted him to be a very respectable man,
and he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) believed him to be
entitled to honour and respect. The French Government
admitted that there was more or less of right in his claim,
and indeed the Noble Lord had made a similar admissioo...
Mr. Finlay had purchased a piece of ground, end he ande-‘'
Dected more for it than the amount of the
had the Noble Lord never heard of cases
in
uantd than they
in which people claimed more for Purtibsugu.ntry
thheeairr, and laughter).
had given for its purchase?—(llmelr;,
In the town of Liverpool how
e suburbs, for which, when
men heel possessed
themselves of property
in.rtehd for local or public purposes,
it was subsequently
reclutihe amount they had given for
they asked seven
tie In such cases
esstice was don© by giving the par-
tou which they were fairly entitled.—
ties the
neaseul.r amount
Noble Lord said he had heard with
an admission, on the part of Mr.
(Hear,
pride
some sort ot
-Finlay, that he consented to arbitration, and that he
would obtain justice by that means. But what would
the Noble Lord think when he was informed, as be now
was, that under the influence of the Government the ar-
bitrators had never been allowed to meet.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord would no doubt see that a denial ot
justice by delay was as bad as a denial of justice alto-
gether, because all the authorities on the subject were
agreed upon that point. They said that if application
were met with a refusal, intentional delay was worse
than a denial, and that in such case interference was
justifiable.—(Hear, hear.) Now, when insult had been
offered to the officers of her Majesty, and a simple
f
apology was require d, that simple apology was a
long time re fused. So in the case of the rubbers., W hen
some compensation was required, the Greek Govern-
ment never answered the letter of application.
They refused to answer or to give any expla-
nation whatever.—(hear, hear.) With regard to the
case of Pacifico, the Noble Lord said that her Majesty's
Government had adopted his outrageous claim, and that
they bad arbitrarily and thoroughly required the Greek
Government to pay it. But what would their Lordships
say when he (the Marquis of Lansdowne) told them that
from the beginning to the end of this transaction Paci-
fico's claim was no further adopted than as a claim for
discussion; and if it were adopted for discussion how
could it be adopted at the full amount he claimed? The
Government could Rot take upon themselves to reduce
it, but what they said to the Greek Government was—
that it must be the subject of inquiry. In the first letter
on the subject, Lord Palmerston, writing to the English
ambassador, said :
"If the amount of M. Pacifico's losses shall appear
to be just and reasonable, you will then only present
them to the Greek Minister for Foreign Affairs. See
that he has taken care to make the demand for com-
pensation in general terms that will not prevent the
Greek Government from interfering."
Lord STANLEY—He says in that letter that the
demand was to be " just and reasonable," and then that
he was to present the claim in " general terms."
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE asked whether any
reasonable man, who heard both sides of the question,
could doubt that the British Government, by this letter,
confined itself to a simple prosecution of an inquiry
after a demand was made that was just, fair, and rea-
sonable ? He found again and again in the course of
the correspondence that the expressien used by Mr.
Wyse was that there should be satisfaction made by the
state of what was " fair and reasonable." lle would
not trouble their Lordships by referring to the many
passages where this expression was used; but on the
25th of March Lord Palmerston gave Mr. Wyse in-
structions, telling him that, with regard to Pacifico's
claim on the Portuguese Government, "it should be
equivalent to the amount if he had not lost his docu-
ments, because that was the measure of his loss."
So that, if Pacifico could only show loss to the
extent of a shilling, he was to recover no more than
a shilling. Whatever the documents were worth, he
was entitled to demand, and that was all the British
Government had claimed for him. The Noble Lord said
that Pacifico was a man not to be trusted, and, in
proof of this, bad referred to a dishonest transaction
alleged to have taken place at Lisbon a great many years
ago, but subsequently to that Pacifico had been twice ap-
pointed Consul by the Portuguese Government; and he(the
Noble Marquis) had too much respect for tho Portu-
guese Government to suppose that if a man were guilty
of forgery or other dishonesty they would select him
for Consul.—(Hear, hear.) He bad now endeavoured
to show that the claims were not, as described in the
resolution, of a doubtful or of an exaggerated nature as en-
forced, whereas nothing had been enforced, but a great
reduction in every possible way had been made in the
claim. Be would not follow the Noble Lord through the
observations he had made with regard to the effect this
transaction had had on other powers. Ile had the satis
faction to think that with regard to those other powers
—both Russia and France—there was no disposition to
dispute the validity of our claim in principle, with the
exception, perhaps, of a portion of Pacifico's claim.
But Russia hat admitte f that these were claims
which we had a right to make, and all
she complained of was that they had been
too suddenly enforced, and that they had been
.. enforced without notice being previously given to the
other powers that it was the intention of the British
Government to enforce them. He had, however, shown
that in all the cases of enforcing claims to which he had
referred, no notice whatever had been given to other
powers ; and he knew nothing in the character, the con-
dition, or in the reletive stresagth of England, as com-
pared with the other powers of the world, which should
lead to the recognition of the principle—that whereas
all other powers might proceed according to their own
sense of the injustice done to require that justice should
be done t thee- subjects, that England should, in a case
where her subjects were concerned, after years of pro-
crastination and delay, treat those states which had
refused to du justice, with a degree of indulgence which
would be snovee to the m by no other power under si-
milar circumstances—(Hear, hear)—and which should
induce the House to resolve that the Government was
not justified in having recourse to the measures
they had adopted of requiring that the demands
ot this country, so far as they were consistent with
justice, should be conceded.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord had complained of the large naval force that had
been employed in enforcing these demands ; and he
admitted that though there were reasons which the
Government considered sufficient for employing that
force, nevertheless the circumstance of its being em-
ployed had attracted more attention, and given rise to
more suspicion (however unjust such suspicion was) than
the employment of a smaller force would have probably
produced. But the temptation for having a large force
in those seas was great, not in reference to carrying out
the principal object in view, but in reference to the cha-
racier and the position of the Greek Government; be-
cause, if that Government were compelled to yield, it
would be more honourable that she should be so compelled
by Sir W. Parker in a three•decker than to a frigate or
smaller force. The Noble Lord had said that the course
which ba,l been pursued had disturbed the amicable re-
lations previously existing between this country and
Russia; and, as he should be sorry to allow an expression
• of the Noble Lord's to lead to any misapprehension in the
public mind of the true state of the case, he must beg to
say that, with the respect he entertained for the Russian
Government, the unfeigned desire by which he was
actuated that this country should continue to remain on
all subjects on a good understanding and in relations
of the most perfect amity with that great power, and
deeply regretting the d trerence of opinion which had
arisen on this one subject—and it had gone no further
than difference of opiniun—(Hear, hear)—he must ut-
terly deny that the dissatisfaction with which Russia
had regarded our proceedings in this case had disturbed
- the amity or friendly relations that had heretofore ex-
isted.—(lleac. hear.) So far from it, he distinctly at
firmed the contrary was the fact.—(Hear, hear.) He
affirmed that on many important subjects in which both
countries telt a common interest, the amity and friendly
feeling of Russia and Great Britain had never been
greater or more complete than at the present moment.-
- (Hear, hear.) But with respect to some of the more
irueortaet questions that now agitated the world and af •
fecied the interests of Europe, there was the utmost unity
of oeiniun, of sentiment, and of action between Russia
and tnis country ; and the amity of the two countries
s area es perfect us it had ever been at any period of our
..history. 'The most intimate, constant, and confi-
dential communications had been all alonggoing 'between those great powers withregard to the impor-
tant affairs of the north of Europe. And now, parti-
cularly at this moment the Government of this country
-availed themselves of the suggestions of Russia, in re-
gard to many important questions, Russia reciprocating
• that confidence, andadvreiirlseing on our advice, following our
suggestions, and
powers to follow and
adopt them.—(Hearne,F otherin )Tlerefore he was justified
saying that there had been no interruption of the
good understanding and amicable relations between the
two countrtes. So far with regard to
bee he must do
Russia;r and now
as to our relations with France.
And
accidental inder that
irc
the Noble Lord the justice to say, that he had said no-
thing that
could in the least degreeoana moment,
h ande for
circum-
stance, a -
from passing away, whichurely hfraodmf
r
moment only, and p
stance, been overshadowing the relations between the
two countries. When the offer was made by 'prance to
mediate in the Greek question, it was accepted in the
conviction that it was fairly and frankly tteendered, for
the purpose of obtaining justice for us
in difference
with the Greek Government, without our b
having re-
course to force. M. Gros went to Greece on that
found that it was
un-
derstanding, but after numerous delays _
te result followed, or was likely to follow, his
media-
tion. Under these circumstances M. de Lhuys
was
the
authorised by his Government to negotiate with
British Government a convention, the conclusion oft
which was it sufficient proof of the sincerity and the spirit
ia.whioh the matter was undertaken by the British Go-
vernment, and of their desire to arrive at a satisfactory
settlement. It was :nett unfortunate, as he considered
it, that that convention had not reached Athens before
the progress of the negotiations there had arrived at
that position which induced M. Gros to withdraw him-
self altogether from his character of mediator, and until
Mr. Wyse after waiting for a considerable period in the
hope that that event the expectation of which was held
out to him by M. Gros, namely, that he should have
something else to propose, but which he never did pro-
pose, should occur, and Mr. Wyse found himself com-
pelled in followioss out his instructions to resume that
state not of hostility, but of pressure against the
Greek Government which he hart commenced but sus-
pended. lie said he found it necessary to resume, for
nothing could be more clear to those who had read
the papers, than that the understanding not only
of Athens, but the understanding b, tween M. de Limy'
Lord Palnserston, wet General Lahitte, was, that
if the differences between M. Gros and Mr. W -ao
should turn upon anything of principle, reprisals should 3
re-commence. Arid the Noble Lord had unquestionable
evidence on this subject, for M. de Lhuys wrote letters
to the French Minister of Foreign Affairs, more than
one, in one of which, which he then held in his hand, it
was distinctly stated that the understanding on which
the neTeiations proceeded was, that if there should be
toy datovrice of principle between N. Gros and Mr.
Wyse, reprisal* slaguld tocugarawace. If any diffezeuce

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, JUNE 18, 1850.

gotiation for three weeks, making that the most
difficult which at the first moment would have been
the easiest mode of settling the question at once.
The Noble Marquis declared, in strong terms, that
our relations with Russia are as friendly as ever they
were ; and if that be so, it was perhaps the freedom
of friendship that was indulged in by the terms of that
dispatch which has been already quoted tonight; other-
wise it might be interred that the person who dictated
that dispatch was actuated by any feeling than that of a
friendly character. (The Noble Lord lowered his voice at
this part of his speech and was very indi-tinctly heard.) We
understood him to express his hope that all this would
pass harmlessly away; but it was clear that these trans-
actions could not have occurred without more or less
injuring that good understanding that had hitherto pre-
vailed. He expressed his dissatisfaction at the state of
foreign relations generally, and said it was impossible
to regard our position with France and Russia without
uneasiness. But four short years ago this country was
honoured, loved, and respected in every state in Europe;
maintaining an intimate and cordial understanding
with France, and without the slightest interruptions
of intimacy and friendship with all other powers;
but he could not regard with any satisfaction
the new species of friendship in which the
Noble Marquis had discovered we existed with our
allies. The Noble Lnrd then referred to our relations
with Austria, whose feelings, he said, had been deeply
injured by that abominable transaction, to which he
had more than once referred, in which we had exhibited
to Europe, most falsely, the policy of Austria with re-
spect to Italy, endeavouring to spread the belief that
Austria entertained views of conquest in that country.
We had been a cause, and a great cause, of a portion of
the misfortunes and difficulties into which Austria had
fallen. We might have stopped the Piedaiontese war,
not by the advice that had been given to the King of
Sardinia, that he had better not go to war with Austria,
because if he did he would have a good chance of being
beaten, but if we had told him that he would have
broken a solemn engagement he had entered into with
Great Britain, and that if he persevered we would pro-
test against his course in the face of all Europe, and re-
call our Minister from his Court, there would have been
no insurrection, and no Russians in Hungary. He re-
garded the entrance of the Russians into Hungary as a
gHreeathmadisfortune,
observednoth
the
ely to Austria, but to Europe.
symptoms of hate to-
wards England, and notwithstanding all that had been
said, he could not persuade himself that the state of
our? oreign relations could long continue as they were.
He had only cited a few instances of this unsatisfactory
condition. It vra‘, however, satisfactory to reflect that
the people of foreign countries would do justice to
England by separating, in their estimate, the conduct of
our Government and the conduct of our people. He
would support the motion of his Noble Friend, who had
presented every part of the subject to their Lordships;
and he doubted if my reflecting man, either in or out of
that House, could lay his hand upon his heart and say
that every word of that statement of his Noble Friend
was not literally true and just.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CARDIGAN, who was very imperfectly
hoard, was understood to say that, although it was not
the
ordinary practice to discuss matters of foreign
policy in Parliament, he thought that the present state
of our foreign relations fully justified their Lordships in
expressing their feelings and opinions on the subject. It
appeared that we had unfortunately succeeded in raising
against us, if not open hostility, at least a hostile feeling
in two of the most powerful nations of the world ; and
those, too, directly opposed to each other in the form
of their national institutions the one being
founded on democratic principles, and the other upon
the principle of arbitrary or despotic power.—(Hear.)
He thought that the general foreign policy of the Go-
vernment, when viewed in connexion with their own
measures, presented the most extraordinary anomaly
ever hoard of. There was a Manchester school of re-
formers, by whose advice the Government acted, and
who wanted to cut down our military and naval estab-
lishments to so low a point as to render it almost impos-
sible for the country even to defend her own shores; and
yet while all this was going on the Government were un-
ceasingly quarrelling with foreign countries.—(Hear,
hear.) Was it necessary for the national honour and
the permanent interests of the country that by our inter-
ference we should have acted in Sicily against our old and
faithful ally, Naples? or that we should have given direct
encouragement to Sardinia when in an act of direct ag-
gression against the Austrian empire? Or was it requisite
to the national honour and the interests of the country
that we should send a British fleet in hostile array
to the very confines of the Russian empire? He had
not taken notice of all these differences, but when he
added the recent case of Spain—(Hear, hear)--he had
gone over nearly all Europe in endeavouring to recall
to their Lordships' minds the follies, abu-es, and falla-
cies into which the Government in its foreign policy
had fallen. And he now confidently asked their Lord-
ships whether it would not, in this case, have been
wiser and more prudent on the part of our Govern-
ment to enaeavour to obtain a settlement of these
claims, and redress for these injuries, in conjunction
with the Ministers of France and Russia, than to have
made these reorisals?—(Hear, hear.) He assured the
House, that in giving this opinion, he spoke without
any personal or hostile feeling whatever to the Noble
Lord at the head of her Majesty's Foreign-office; but
that, on the contrary, he felt the highest respect for his
high courage and character; but he was in a dangerous
position, and the foreign policy of this country ought to
be conducted upon principles that were permanently
conciliatory.—(dear.)

that the Greek Government would act according to
Greek law in the matter, and would ultimately see jus-
tice done. He (Lord Beaumont) did not mean to defend
the amount of the claim; but the letter of Glarakis, al-
though most ingenuously written, was a perfect denial
of all justice, of any claim whatever. Besides,
the Greek Government refused altogether even
to investigate the matt,r —so that, in fact,
in both cases—in that of N. Pacifico as well
as in that of Mr. Finlay—the law of the land
was violated and denied; and therefore, as he contended,
the English Government had acquired a right to interfere.
With respect to the next case—that of the seizure of
the boat of the Fantome—he thought that the Noble
Lord had treated far too lightly the insult offered to the
officer and the crew of that boat, and the still greater in.
suit offered to Lieutenant Macdonald of the Spitfire. In
the first instance, the officer and crew were seized before
the English consul's door, and the local authorities ab-
solutely refused to give any reparation for the outrage.
If such doings were permitted to go unpu-
nished, our officers, in a country like Greece,
would be insulted in every direction. What he com-
plained of in reference to the matter was, that the de-
feand for reparation had been too long delayed. He
would fain have seen a question of this kind righted on
the moment; and he might add, that all the French
naval officers upon the station were most anxious, for
the sake of the precedent, that full reparation should be
made for the insult. But after all the primary outrage
was not the worst. An inquiry had been instituted
into the conduct of the English officer, and in
an investigation of this kind the word of honour of Bri-
tish officers ought to have been enough, and the Greek
Government ought to have admitted that under
such circumstances the probability was that their
agents had been mistaken, and that the Numeral of Pa-
tras was in the wrong. Such a matter ought to have
been cut short at once. Then came the case of the plun-
dering of the lonian boats at the Custom-house of the
Saltine. He was given to understand that in this instance
the brigands were actually in alliance with the Custom-
house officers.—(oh, oh.) This was the statement made
in several Greek newspapers, at all events. Let that how-
ever be as it might, this at least was evident, that we
had triel every means to settle those claims. They were
known to Russia, Austria, and France. We had used,
he repeated, every possible means to obtain a settle-
ment. Sometimes we received no answer to our repre-
sentations—sometimes we received such unsatisfactory
replies, that we could not adopt them. At last it be-
came evident that something decided must be done. A
final claim was put in, and this also not having been
attend, d to, there was nothing left for it but force.
Under these circumstances, he thought that her Ma-
jesty's Government were justified in what they had
done, and that the Noble Lord opposite bad made out
no case against them, afel he had tailed in showing that
they had acted precipitately, harshly, or in oppo-
sition to the law of nations, or to that of Greece itself,
in at last employing violent means to enforce their
claims. He believed that there was no deceit on either
aide in respect of the transactions which had taken place
between the representatives of France and England on
the subject of Greece. In his opinion the conduct of
France, as represented by that honourable and distin-
guished man, M. Drouyn de Lhuys, was candid and
straightforward, and that of Lord Palmerston equally
so. Lord Palmerston laid it down as a principle,
from which he would not recede, that the amount of the
claims might be disputed, but not the existence of the
claims. He believed it was understood that Baron
Gros went to Athens not to dispute the existence of
these claims, but to get them settled as soon as possible.
Lord Palmerston also laid it down distinctly that the
action of the squadron was to be suspended while the
negotiation was going on, and that it should rest with the
French negotiator to declare when he would retire
from the negotiation. The question, therefore,
resolved itself into one of fact, whether Baron
Gros withdrew or not, and it appeared to him
to be indisputable that he had done so.—(Hear.)
He could not understand, however, why a great nation
should make a quarrel about the failure of a convention,
which it' carried into effect would have borne more
hardly upon Greece than what had actuully taken place.
It was absolutely necessary for us to use force under
the circumstances, or else to establish a precedent by
which people might be tortured, robbed, and have their
houses burned; and that, too, in the Levant, where it
was more then ordinarily necessary to resent any injury
done to British subjects, whether it came from a great
or a small power. If, therefore, instead of adopting a
straightforward course in our negotiations, and instead
of taking our stand on the law of nations, we adopted
the new law laid down by the Noble Lord opposite,
there would be no use in future in having either an am-
bassador or a consul abroad, and we should sink at once
to the rank of a second-rate nation. If the threats of
Austria and Russia were to be carried out, an English-
man travelling iu those countries would lose the pro-
tection which was thrown around him by the law of
nations. He would say, therefore, that if the resolution
of the Noble Lord were carried, it would operate most
injuriously. It was an un-English and hostile motion,
originating with foreign influence, and such a motion
as that he tru.ted the House would never sanction.

Lord WARD, who spoke with his back turned di-
rectly to the reporters' gallery, and was in consequence
scarcely heard at all, we understood to defend the policy
the Government had pursued upon the question now
before the House. The papers to enable their Lordships
to form a proper judgment upon that question had only
been a few days before the House; and when the Noble
Lord brought forward his resolution with all the weight
of his determined character, he (Lord Ward) felt that
there was no one in the House in a position to answer,
point by point, all the statements in the speech of that
Noble Lord. The proceedings in this matter had not
been sudden, for several successive Governments had
pressed these claims upon the Greek Government with-
out receiving any satisfactioe, and he appealed to their
Lordships whether it was probable that the Government
would have resorted to the ultimatum of twenty-four hours
without sufficient previous negotiation. The Government
had felt that the time had come when we must make our-
selves heard, and bring the matter to an issue. Although
Greece had a constitutional form of Government, he
believed that King Otho was as much a despot as the
Emperor of Russia. The mission of Baron Gros to
Greece was not, as had been asserted to-niglat, to act the
part of sheriff's officer to England. But, after a time,
Baron Gros ceased to hold the scales fairly between the
two parties, and the hostilities had commenced because
he refused to put one of those six original claims which
had been preferred by the Noble Lord at the head of the
Foreign-office. The negotiator had done wrong at that
moment to retire from his post, and he (Lord Ward)
thought the British Government had acted properly in
using the force at their disposal. For these reasons he
could not support the motion of the Noble Lord.
Lord BEA-UNION T, in Opposing the resolutions of
the Noble Lord, was also anxious to enter his protest
against some of the doctrines he had put tor ward.-
While that Noble Lord was speaking, he (Lord Beau-
mont) confessed he had some difficulty in keeping in
mind the fact that the Noble Lord was a member of their
Lordships' House, discussing a question of policy.
Ho could hardly refrain from thinking the Noble Lord
was some advocate engaged by a foreign enemy,
anxiously trying to cripple the operations of the
British Government, place impediments on the action of
the nation, and reduce it to the level of a second-rate
power. If the doctrine of the Noble Lord with respect
to international law were correct, it was high time to
recall our ambassadors in foreign countries; for there
would be no further reason to employ our fleets for the
protection of our trade, and our merchants abroad
must go unprotected. The Noble Lord went the length
of saying that whenever a wrong was done to a British
subject abroad he must rely on the tribunals which ad-
ministered the law in the country in Which he resided,
and m Ist abandon all right to protection from his own
country. Another doctrine of the Noble Lord was,
that we were bound to consult the other great powers
of Europe in case of such disagreement:. That pro-
position he (Lord Beaumont) denied to be good or
correct in any respect whatever. From the moment we
guaranteed the independence of Greece, she was
placed on the footing of every independent country.
But the fact was, te Greek Government knew the
Noble Lord the Minister for Foreign Affairs was in
office, and that they could not trifle with him. Coletti,
however, had assumed a power which that Noble Lord's
predecessor could not shake off,—(A laugh.) lie (Lord
Beaumont) remembered questioning the Noble Earl (the
Earl of Aberdeen) when in office, with regard to some
of these claims, and when the Noble Earl asked him
whether he would have him employ force in exacting
the demands he had made, he had replied he should be
sorry to employ force against the Government of Greece.
The Earl of ABERDEEN explained, that with the
Was he correct in his statement?
exception of the interest on the Week loan, he had left
no claims unsettled when ho left office. Mr. Finlay's
claim had only just commenced, and he (the Earl of
Aberdeen) had been requested to use his good offices,
which certainly, if they meant anything, did not mean
force.—(Hear, hear.) Many individual claims had been
brought before him. the whole of which had been satis-
fied by the Greek Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord BEAUMONT continued, addressing himself to
the case of Mr. Finlay. That gentleman's laud had
been taken from him without any notice, and without
compensation;
and in a dispatch the Noble Earl himself
spoke of it as an act of injustice. Mr. Finlay might
have put in an exorbitant claim, but he had not done so.
From what was stated in the dispatches before them,
the House would perceive that in Mr. Finlay's case, as
in others, the spirit of the Greek constitution was vio-
lated, in as mach as the seizure of the lands had taken
place before the fixing of the indemnity, and that the
legal arbitration to which the claimant had offered to
submit, had been refused by the Government. The ap-
plication in respect to arbitration was the last which
had been made, and it had been declined. It was then, not
until the law hed been actually violated—it was not un-
tilof
own Govii;rateiitimecu)t._—ht(yliineg
case ar, hear.) Then came the
Mr. Fit had found himself at the mercy of one of
the Greek Ministers, that he had applied foarndpromteacgni
protection
to his -
tude of claim altogether aside, how did the
matter stand ? A fanatical mob, encouraged by
certain members of the Government, destroyed M.
Pacifico's house, and in doing so committed an outrage
upon the law. How had that individual proceeded ?
He had first gone to the Procureur du lies, but that
functionary, after satisfying himself as to the authors of
the outrage, refused to take any steps against them, or
to take any measure towards the obtaining of an indem-
nity for the mischief done. On this M. Pacifico applied
to Sir Edmund Lyons, who urged him again to appeal
to the Procureur du Roi, and in the meantime, in writing
home relative to the matter, kept hoping for siz months

Viscount CANNING admitted that the conduct of the
Greek Government had been most reprehensible; but,
unfortunately, it did not follow from the fact that the
Greek Government had done wrong that the English
Government had done right; and he confessed he saw
in these transactions many matters which called loudly
for the reprehenaion of Parliament and the country.—
(Hear, hear.) He had heard nothing in the course of
this discussion which shook his confidence in the maxim
quoted from Lord Mansfield by the Noble Earl near him
(the Earl of Aberdeen), the terms of which applied
strictly, accurately, and with curious minuteness to the
present case. " The law of nations, founded on justice
and equity, convenience, and the reason of the thing,
and confirmed by long usage, does not allow repri-
sals, :except in cases of violent injuries supported
or directed by the State, and all justice absolut•ly
denied in re minims dubia by all the tribu-
nals, and afterwards by the Prince." He would take
in the first place Mr. Finlay's claim. H. did not say
th it that gentleman had no claim at all; but he did
maintain that it was not put forward i❑ the only proper
and seemly mode in which it could have been advanced.
What would their Lordship say if the subjects of any
foreign state were to come before the Government of this
country with a peremptory order from the Minister of
his country, asking for indemnity because law was ex-
pensive, and because the judges were removable on
political and party grounds? He was sure their Lord-
ships would scout such a claim, and justly; and as
justly did the Greek Government scout the demand
which was made oa the part of Mr. Finlay. But if
the course which Mr. Finlay had pursued was
open to objection, much more so was that of M.
Pacifico. He did not mean to deny that there was a foun-
dation in justice for his claims, as well as in the case of
Mr. Finlay. But there was this difference between
them, that in Mr. Finlay's case there was at least a
corpus delicte—his property was real and tangible; while
in the case of M. Pacifico there was nothing certain ex-
cept the fact that his house had been assaulted. The
estimate of his ',isles stood only on his own assertion,
and the Greek Government had good reason for dis-
trusting his claim. How then did the Greek Govern-
ment act? They justly and properly required that such
alleged losses, before they could be compensated out of
the Greek treasury, should be verified before a court jot
justice. The Noble Marquis professed to show that
Pacifico's claim in its integrity formed no part of the
demand of the British Government on Greece
at the moment Baron Gros was sent out, and
ho quoted a dispatch, previous to that period,
to show that it was the intention of the Noble Lord
that NI. Pacifico's claims, if they were deserving of exa-
mination at all, should receive consideration. But, iu
the first place, Sir Edmund Lyons did not act upon that
dispatch. In the next place, the question was not what
were the demands made in previous years, but what
were the demands made by the Greek Government at
the moment Sir W. Parker's guns were pointed at the
Piraeus. There were several other points, but he would
pass on to the question of compensation for the lonian
boats. This was a different claim from the others—it
was a question of principle—the others were questions
of facts. It appeared that a band of robbers had over-
powered the Custom-house at Achelous, and had
also plundered some lonian boats moored in the
river. But these robbers were oppressors of the
Greeks as well as of the lonians. They had plundered
two Greek vessels, as well as the six lonian boats. They
had carried off several Greek subjects into captivity.
To be sure, that was no compensation to the lonians;
but it served to show that the Greek Government were
net responsible. Lord Palmerston, in his dispatch on the
subject, stated that as the Greek Government were
either unable or unwilling to repress these depredators,
that therefore they ought to be held responsible for the
depredations. He would ask their Lordships whether
there was either justice or common sense in this? All
cases of depredation took place either from the inability
or unwillingness of the Government to repress them;
but if a claim were made for compensation on that
ground to the British Government, he was sure it would
be rejected with ridicule and scorn. If his (Viscount
Canning's) Noble Friend the Under Secretary of State was
able to give a satisfactory answer as to the way in which
this question had boen put before the law advisers of the
Crown he should still be a little sceptical, and still feel
rather disposed to abide by the opinion of Lord Mans-
field, who laid down the maxim that a foreigner should
receive the same treatment as a native of the state in
which he resided, and no better. It was notorious that
certain claims had been preferred on the part of the
British Government against the Governments of Naples
and Tuscany for what certain British subjects had sui-
fered in the course of the lamentable events which took
place there in the course of last year. He knew not
how these claims had been received, but he believed they
had been regarded not un'avourably by our Govern-
ment. He believed the Governments of Naples and
Tuscany had refused compensation to their own subjects,
and that would ho a bar to their giving compensation to
our subjects. Their Lordships might remember seeing
in the police reports that an unfortunate British sub-
ject, a negro sailor, had been brought up for some
claim as to wages.—(Hear, hear.) The vessel in
which this negro was a seaman arrived at Charleston,
and immediately on her arrival a police officer took that
negro sailor into custody, and he was kept in prison until
the vessel sailed from Charleston. Now that was a
case which he (Viscount Canning) would venture to say
was one of intolerable hardship.—(Hear, hear.) If the
Noble Lord was prepared to substantiate and enforce
his maxim that justice was to be done to every British
subject in whatever country he might live, irrespective
of the laws of that country, he could not have a better
or a more honourable case than this for his interference.
—(Hear, hear.) He (Viscount Canning) contended that
in the result of the negotiations in the cases of .11. Paci-
fieo and Mr. Finlay, a recognis, d principle of national
law had been overridden and set aside. lle should be
doing injustice to the Noble Lord at the head of the
Foreign-office if he said he was alone responsible for
this correspondence; never was ho more ably seconded
than by Sir Edmund Lions, for he had become most