The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-26 00:00:00

the view of securing something like uniformity. He
was surprised to find that the discrepancy in the various
counties far exceeded anything that could be justified by
the saryir;,i, circumstances of the counties.
Mr. HENLEY said they ought to take care in endea-
vouring to establish uniformity that they did not increase
the rate of these charges.
Mr. lIUME hal objected to the voto every year, and
would continue to object to it. If the country paid these
expenses, they ought to have some check over them,
which at present was not the case.
Sir J. TROLLOPE complained of the inefficient
manner in which the duties of the inspectors of prisons
were discharged—they sanctioned the most extravagant
expenditure, and in some instances the prisons built were
found to be wholly inadequate to the accommodation of
the prisoners.
Mr. AGLIONBY referred the Committee to an amend-
ment in the Criminal Justice Bill, which he had sug-
gested, with regard to taking the pleas of prisoners in
cases of larceny and misdemeanor, for the first offence,
before the magistrates at petty sessions. The effect of
h's amendment would be to save the country 40,000/. or
50,0001. per annum.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the next vote, 7,5501. to complete the sum neces-
sary to defray the charge of inspection of the various
prisons,
Sir J. TROLLOPE move.] that the salaries of the
three inspectors, amounting to 2,1001., be omit!el from
the vote.

Sir G. GREY vindicated the inspectors, whose labours
were extremely valuable to the country. At the same
time, he must say that the Committee on prison disci-
pline had recommended that some change should be ef-
fected in the present system of inspection.
Mr. T. EGERTON hoped the inspectors would attend
to what the Right Hon. Gentleman had said.
Colonel SIBTHORP had ,visited several prisons, and
had never seen a set of more jolly, happy, well-fed, well-
clothed fellows than the convicts were. They were
much better fed, much better clothed, and much more
lively, be was sorry to say, than the agricultural labourers
of England were at present.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
There was too great a disposition on the part of the
public to sympathise with criminals. When men com-
mitted such crimes as the assassination of Mr. Drum-
mend, why they were under the influence of monomania.
He remembered hearing that on,one occasion a jury ap-
plied to Chief Justice Hale, as a Christian, to extend
mercy to a criminal. The Chief Justice replied, " I
hope, as a Christian, that I am disposed to exercise
mercy, but there is a mercy due to the country. The
prisoner is a notorious scoundrel, and I shall hang him."
—(A laugh.) He (Colonel Sibthorp) thought that prin-
ciple might with great advantage be carried into effect
more extensively than it was at present. He wished to
ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department
whether he would be prepared with some additional
places of confinement when that exhibition of which they
had heard so much was opened in Hyde Park.—(Roars
of laughter.) He hoped it would never take place, as
" there was many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip;" but
if they once had such a set of fellows let loose upon
them without law or without religion, the additional
force of 2,000 police that was spoken of would not be
enough. If they went on with that accursed free-trade
system, they might rely upon it more prisons and more
police would be required. They were going to inundate
the country with a set of fellows who, if they were not
lost on their way herr, would be the greatest curse that
ever was inflicted on them.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
In answer to Mr. HUME,
Sir G. GREY said the expenses of the model prison
at Pentonville had been considerably reduced, and with
regard to the separate and silent system a report had
been prepared, which would be laid on the table before
the House separated.
After some further conversation,
Sir J. TROLLOPE withdrew his amendment, and
the vote was agreed to.
On the vote of 137,2241., to complete the sum neces-
sary to defray the charge fur Government prisons and
convict establishments at home,
Colonel DUNNE suggested that the vote be post-
poned; but after an explanation from Sir G. Grey, with-
drew his objection, and the vote was agreed to.
The f 'flowing votes were then agreed to:-
65,8481. to defray the charge for the maintenance of
prisoners in county prisons and lunatic asylums.
69.2301. for the transportation of prisoners.
100,1471. for convict establishments in the colonies.
The House then resumed.
GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and additional clauses
were added.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
On the third reading of this Bill being moved,
Mr. TURNER said, as the Bill had been materially
altered since its first introduction, and as it had never
yet undergone full discussion, ho should take the sense
of the House on the question. The report which had
been presented to the House showed that the Bill pro-
posed to deal with 23,746 charities under 30/. a year,
and 27,000 charities under 1001. a year. The report
stated that the Commissioners on investigation were of
opinion that much of the mel-administration ascertained
to exit in these charities had arisen from ignorance.
The Commissioners had been applied to in several in•
stances by trustees for advice, and the advice that had
in consequence been given was productive of much
good. The Bill went in direct opposition to the recom-
mendations of the report. The Bill wished to place all
charities below 30/. under the jurisdiction of the county
courts, and all charities between 301. and 1001. under
the jurisdiction of the masters of the Court of Chan-
cery, at the same time doing away with appeals. The
provisions of the Bill, he was satisfied, instead of
&creasing would very much increase litigation.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman went
at considerable length into the objections
which he entertained towards many of the provisions
of the Bill, the Bill itself he was satisfied being only cal-
culated to promote political and party objects. If the
Bill passed the House would find that the trustees of
charitable funds would become merely political parti-
sans. He admitted that charities had hitherto been
much abused and made to subserve party purposes; but
the Bill, if it became law, so far from curing existing
complaints, would very much augment and perpetuate
them. The alterations that had subsequently been made
in the Bill he did not find at all rust the objections. It
was perfectly clear that the Bill had not been properly
considered. It would involve endless litigation through
the absence of any restriction on applications to the
courts, and he should therefore venture to move that the
Bill be read that day six months.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the report in
question did not contradict, but specially assisted the
objects of the Bill. The great object was to have
a tribunal to which questions connected with cha-
rities might be referred. Such a tribunal was the
county court. In the charities under 20/. the great
majority of cases related to ss. donations, or there-
abouts. It was essential in such cases there should
be a cheap tribunal to refer to, and the county
courts, in conformity with the recommendation of
the Commissioners, were to be resorted to. The At-
torney-General was an officer who had power to prevent
improper suits; and this would meet one of the objec-
tions raised by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Tnen,
with respect to the jurisdiction of the Masters in Chan-
cery—he did not think there would bo that want of uni-
formity of decision because there were ten Masters of
Chancery, as was anticipated, even though there might
be no appeal from their decision. The Masters were
generally desirous of establishing uniformity of decision;
but if appeals were invited and cultivated, they would
destroy completely the value and object of the Bill. In
conclusion, he could only say that the Bill had been
brought in for no party purposes, but had been required
for a considerable length of time for the purpose of en-
abling overseers of the poor and persons having the ma-
nagement of petty charities all over the country to
administer them in a satisfactory manner, by placing
within their reach a tribunal to which they might have
recourse for advice and assistance in matters of difficulty,
and by affording them an easy mode of redress in cases
of breaches of trust, and giving the greatest possible
publicity to the accounts of the various small charities—
an object of the utmost importance both in his opinion
and that of the Commissioners, with the view of prevent-
ing breaches of trust for the future. On these grounds
he earnestly entreated the House to assent to the third
reading of the Bill.
Mr. GOULBURN (who rose amidst loud cries for
a division) said he would not occupy the time of the
House more than a few minutes. They had before
them the Bill of the Learned Attorney-General, and
they had the report of the Commissioners appointed by
the Crown to examine the subject. The Bill was laid on
the table on the Ist of March, and the Commissioners
made their report on the 25th of June, and he presumed,
therefore, as they were undoubtedly gentlemen fully re-
solved to discharge the duty imposed on them, that they
must have considered the subject of charities with refe-
rence to the Bill now before the House. It was, never-
theless, remarkable that the Commissioners in the course
of their report made no allusion to the Bill, but laid down
a system incompatible with it, as had been shown by his
Hon. Friend, particularly with respect to that part re-
lating to local tribunals; because they particularly pointed
out that if the local tribunals were to be resorted to for the
purpose they ought to be under the control of some office
or board, to prevent the abuses to which such tribunals
would be liable. The Hon and Learned Attorney-Gene-
ral had spoken of these charities as though they were
of small importance, but it must be remembered that
out of 28,000 charities 23,000 would come within
the jurisdiction of this Bill, and it was precisely
because they were of small amount that they would
be the more open to jobbing, because the public atten-
tion would not be so likely to be attracted to them as
to those involving accounts of 15,000/. or 20,0001. In
fact, the only ground on which the system was defended
was its cheapness. lie objected, however, to place these
charities in the hands of the attorneys of the county
courts, whose practice mast have led them to deal with
a totally different class of subjects. Without imputing
improper motives to the county court judges, it would be
extremely difficult to secure them from party influences,
which might be exerted through the instrumentality of
their clerks, especially in matters connected with educe-
tion.--(lleur.)
The Route then divided, when there appelred—
For the third reading... ... 96
the re..toAGr dg°aljin.lL‘satel-ljeiotrUhoiltotyNl s moved... an a:m:endm:e•.: —43
hie. st3o43insert
among the exceptions from
the
Bill.
The ATTORNEY_ GENERAL opposed the amend-
ment.
HENLEY supported it.
The House divided, when there appeared—
ForThisthehe
r Majorityie
s Bamendmentill
av‘g,
iinst.:•h
e
e at
went thtrouilleC: :noliamtne.nitk e
e.
The Summary Jurisdiction '37-39
8
Against it 7
(Ireland) Bill was read a
third time and passed, with the addition of a clause pro-
poked by Colonel DUNNE.