The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-26 00:00:00

JUNE 26,

claim. I can attach no value whatever to a claim preferred
under such circumstances, by whomseevar put forward or
supported. Such a claim has no foundation whatever -it
has no foundation upon right or order, and must be entirely
and everly rejected. The value of the provision of Me.
Wyse lies in effectually closing the door against such a de-
mand, and so preventing a renewal of the discusaion, and
causing, perhaps, the interruption of our ,friendly relations
with Greece after the whole matter had been settled.-
( Hear.) But her Majesty's Government are, instead of that
provision in the convention, willing to accept of the good
offices of the Government of France, which, from the posi-
tion in which France now stands in towards Greece, are sure
to prove successful. France therefore will advise the King of
Greece not to make such claims, and with that advice we
will remain satisfied. Thus has terminated all our differ-
ences with Greece in respect to those matters. -(Loud
cheers.) I believe, if it had not been for the discussion
which was coming on in the French Chamber of peculiar
importance, it was the intention of the represen-
tative of France to be present at this debate. Now, Sir, haV-
ing said so much on the affairs of Greece, which I have taken
first in order, there still remains the question of the far-Ulric-a-
islands of Sapienza and Cervi.- (Hear, hear.) As regards
these islands, my opinion is most clear and definite-(Cheers)
-and lam supported in that opinion-as has been stated in
the course of this deb ite-by my predecessor in office, Lord
Aberdeen. - (Cheers.) The case is simply this. There are
certain islands on the coast of Greece, opposite the coasts of
the Mores and Albania, which originally belonged to Venice,
but according to the terms of treaty entered into between
Austria and the Porte, some of these islands were erected into
a separate state, and placed under the suzerain of the
Porte, and under the protection of Russia. In 1800
the constitution was formed, and in 1804, in ex-
ecution of the terms of this constitution, the Wands
were formed into municipal districts; the smaller
islands were then allotted to the larger islands, and accord-
ing to the terms of a public decree, which I- cannot but
believe was made known fo Russia and the Porte, Sapienza
was annexed to Zante and Cervi to the island of Cerigo.
These islands have been considered by the British as
belonging 'to England, and it is well known that. British
officers, on taking in water at Cerigo, are in the habit of
going to Cervi. Be this as it may, however, the limits of
Greece were specifiCally laid down by the protocol 'of 1830.
With the exception of some differences about the northern
frontier, the whole frontier of Greece was settlet by the
protocol of 1830. The limits of the frontier were specified
by a line drawn on the map, but the islands were desig-
nated by name in the protocol, and it was well known: and
arranged that in these islands were not included Cervi-still
less Sapienza, and therefore it was impossible to suppose
that either was included in the kingdom of Greece. If the
Greek Government have taken possession of the lonian
State, it was not the British Government who took
possession.-(Hear, hear.) That question, however, is not
settled by cur demand, but still remains to be settled with
the other powers. A boat conveying ;convicts from
Cerigo was driven on shore on the island of Cervi, where
the prisoners were liberated by officers of the Greek Go-
vernment, who acted as if it were their own territory.
It was necessary to call for answer to this outrage, and if no
answer were given, then it was necessary to take possession
of the island, which was effected by a boat's crew, and was
not a matter in which the employment of any great force
was rendered necessary.-(Hear, hear.) And now, Sir,
having disposed of matters relating to Greece, I have now to
enter on the wider range-(Cheers)-taken last night by
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Gra-
hain),.e-es(Cheers.) I think the Right Hon. Baronet took a
proper:view or, the question before the House, for the resolu-
'•tiordbes•hof Yon'fille 'itself to any one act of the Government
in relation to its foreign policy, but opens a consideration of
all the topics to which the Right Hon. Ilareleat eljuded. I
agree with some of those Hon. Members who have spoken?the:cotirie of- ihis"aibitFe,lttrif tfie:regriiiireil,aou ma- tn-
volve the expressiotebfestn entire--approval of all we have
done, ter it could, hardly be a*peOqd tnat ..men,
.acting
'dibrent ftifoerii'ation, hardly
ldieg differeni View' s, itri4 not
knowing the grounds::oseevehiclt, heeacted, should be 'AIM ,1
and expected to approve of every particular act, but I agree
that the Right Hon. Baronet took the right view of the larger I
question. The Right Hun. Baronet must allow me to set him
light on the first point with which he started. He stated
that, when we were both members of Earl Grey's Admini-
stration, he concurred in the foreign policy which I, as its
organ, adopted, and instanced this concurrence by a refe-
rence to the separation of Belgium from Holland. In
doing so, the Right Honourable Baronet did full justice to
the views which actuated the Government in the part they
took for the purpose of effecting this separation, which di-
rectly infringed the treaty of Vienna. But, he said, this was
a very different case, for every step throughout the negotia-
tion was taken with the concurrence of the five powers.
He said he had also concurred in some other things which
were done, and which were beyond the sphere of negotiation
-the siege of Antwerp and our embargo on the Dutch
ships, were these measures taken with the concurrence of the
five other powers-(Cheers)-were they of that description
which would render our friendly relations with other coun-
tries less disturbed?-(Cheers) He must recollect that
Austria, Prussia, and Russia dissented from our views, and
for a time withdrew from the conference.-(Cheers.) He
must recollect that the presence of the Prussian army ren-
dered it necessary to the French to send a large force to
Antwerp. The Eight Hon. Baronet has, therefore, made a
mistake. I know that when persons are out of office their
memories are not always tenacious on matters which oc-
curred when they were in power-(Cheers and laughter)-
but a mistake there was, and one, too, of some importance,
as bearing on the particular questiOn. I think with the
Right Honourable Baronet that this was a wise determina-
tion on the part of the Government -I, think that the
beneficial arrangement of 1815, by which a power of some
consideration was formed in Europe to interpose between
France on one side and Germany on the other, was rendered
by the course of events of a contrary nature. the two
people of Germany and Holland could not coalesce, and if
their union had been forced upon them, it doubtless could not
have been effected without a war, and even if effected, would
not have lasted, but would have laid the foundation of
future inevitable destruction.-(Loud cheers.) We, how.
ever, carried our opinion on this point. It is needless to
deny, at this time of day, that it was not with the will of
the three powers to which I have alluded, who would have
been glad to have seen the union enferced. These nations
committed no breach of faith-they acted in perfect
faith, .but still • they entertained • an opinion which
differed from the opinion of France and England. Our
opinion prevailed, and was this an' Arrangement which de-
served the censure of the'Right lion. .13aronet ?-;(;.,oud
cheers.) I have been told of our little experiments in eats-
, blishiag monarchies e but if-ever-there-was a--successful ex-
periment, the erection- sef' Belgium into a successful state
was that successful ex perirnentee- (Cheers.) When convul-
sion was rife 'throughout Europe,' Belgium remained tran-
quil--(Cheers)-her people entertained- a Jove and affection
fur tbeir.Sovereigu, and the. Sovereign for- his‘people ;;they
bad madferapid advances in-the -sciences and the arts-thus
reflecting great honour on thenrelves-end had, moreover,
acquired the sentiments of nationality which 'entitled them
to respect. I think,„ Sir, this is a case to which we may
refer with pride-(Cheers)-and on which we can claim the
approbation of Parliament.-(Cheers.) It was not without
difficulty we could carry our negotiations to so successful
an issue. The Right Honourable Baronet says be was also a
party to another operation as regards Portugal. We have been
accused of interfering here and there in the affairs of other
countries, and I presume it is on this that the Right Hon.
Baronet founds his disapprobation of our foreign affairs
under my management as,their organ. A question arose in
Portugal between Donna Anna Maria, her father Dom
Miguel, and her uncle Dons Pedro. Was it of any import-
ance to England whether Donna Maria or' Dom Miguel
reigned in Portugal? but we regarded absolute Government
on the one hand, and constitutional Government on the other.
-(Loud cheers.) You may ask what interest had we in
that either? Prized fade, we might have preferred the
former, for if a nation wishes to use her influence she can
more easily do so where the Government resides in a Court
and a Cabinet than where it exists in the representative
assembly of the people. We, however, spurned this advan-
tage-we knew there were other advantages which would
countervail it-we knew that the best chance of remedying
the evils which existed in Portugal, and of developing her
resources, would be by securing the inestimable advan-
tages of a free constitution.-(Loud cheers.) Thinking
there was right on the side of the party, we espoused the
cause, and concluded a treaty with Spain, France, and Por-
tugal, by which Dom Miguel was expelled by force, and
Donna Maria placed on the throne. Sir, I think that in
this instance the Government acted well; and I think also
that the Right Hon. Baronet is entitled to share with me
the credit-(Cheers)-above all, as he concurred with me in
resorting to force.-(Cheers.) I shall be told we were not
successful, and that another insurrection broke out in Por-
tugal when our interference lay in an opposite direction.
Now, no, man can suppose that, when you plant free institu-
tions in a soil-in which it has not hitherto grown, the tree
will all at once reach maturity and bear fruit.-(Hear, hear.)
It takes time to educate men for representative government
-it takes time to teach governors to submit to the control of
representative government.-( Hear, hear.) The whole his-
tory of the world, and of this country more than any other,
will furnish instances exemplifying the truth of this state-
ment; but can any man compare the present condition of
Portugal with what it was? Evils may exist, but her
present condition is as different from her pest as light
from darkness.-(Cheers.) In 1847 our conduct was
approved of by the Right Honourable Gentleman,
but disapproved of by my Honorable and Gallant
Friend (Mr. Osborne), who has, however, given us his
support on this question. The throne of Portugal was in
danger, and the Government applied to us under the treaty
into which we had entered with France and Spain . We did
not acknowledge the treaty was in force, but we had to con-
sider the case on its merits. I know that many men think
the more prudent course would have been to let the contest
eo on, whatever might be its results between the parties;
but I thought then, as I do now, that the course we adopted
was the right one, and am convinced that, though for the
time we disarmed the Liberal party, we saved that Liberal I
party, which would otherwise have been involved in the most 1
imminent danger. My conviction is that, if England had
not adopted the course she did, the object would have been
accomplished by foreign interference, but not with the condi-
tions which England attached. These conditions were ample
and complete amnesty for all those engaged in the civil war,
the revocation of all illegal edicts, an immediate convocation
of Parliament as soon as an election could take place, and
the formation of a Government consisting neither of- the
Cabral party--the High Tory party I may call them -
(Laughter)-or of the members of the Junta of Oporto.
Oh ! it is said you have got .back Costa Cabral, and your
object was to get quit of him. The fault I find with those
who attack me elsewhere-(Laughter)-in that House mid '
in other countries, is that they try to bring every queetion
to a personal bearing.-(Cheers.) If the object be to op-
pose the policy of England, then the cry is-Let us get rid
I
olifkathkenoorcgkaiangodf
otwhantappoolilcieye.m-a(nC.heAerson
s. g
Whyas
tthheatas
glish
people are actuated by the spirit and opinions which
slowcharacterise them, you may knock down twenty Foreign
Ministers, but no Minister can keep his place who -does
not act in accordance with the national sentiments.—
(Cheers.) It is said again-You interfered in Portugal,
in 1847, not for the benefit of that country, but you
wanted to get rid of Costa Cabral. Nor did it
signify to England whether Costa Cabral was Minister
of Portugal or not? We felt and knew that if, at that
moment of popular excitement, a member of the Cabral
faction was made Minister, it would inevitably lead to a
renewal of the civil war which we meant to terminate, and I
therefore we made the exclusion, not for ever, but till such '
time as the Cortes should determine in whom their confi•
deuce was to be placed, and, till that should be done, mem-
bers of both parties were to be excluded. Then come we to
Spain. In regard to that country, as the Honourable Baro-
net stated, he was not in office when the independent article
of 1e35 was added to the treaty of 1834. But what was
the treaty of 1834, or the treaty of Quadruple Alliance, as
it is called ? Its object was to expel, not only Dom Miguel,
but Don Carlos, who was at that time at the head of a body
of troops, and therefore, as far as the spirit of the treaty is
concerned, the Right Hon. Baronet Could not ride off upon
the plea that he did not consent td the additional article. At
that time Don Carlos was in Portugal, and ready to give
battle to Spain. He subsequently evacuated the Peninsula,
came to this country, and then returned to Spain, where a
civil war was incited. 'lt was then that the additional treaty
of 1835 was agreed to ; and its object was to give to the Queen
of Spain such assistance as was required to enable her to main-
tain her ground. In one point of view, it was of no consequence

to England who should fill the throne of kiain—whether tile
female branch or Don Carlos. Questions of succession have been
matters with which other countries have concerned them-
selves, but only where distinct interests were involed.
But it was in Spain as in Portugal—it was a question
between arbitrary and constitutional Government; and we
thought the interest of • England, in every point of view,
commercial and political, would be benefited by the esta-
blishment of,constitutional government in Spain.—(Cheers,)
If England, has an interest in regard to Spain, it is, that
Spain may be independent—that she should be Spanish,
and that she should be for the • Spaniards.—(Cheers.)
It was deemed of advantage to this country that Spain
should not be placed under the dictation •of other powers.
It was deemed for the • interest of this country that, should
she have the misfortune to have a dispute, or to be at
war with other countries, she should not be at war with
Spain also—(Cheers)—and we thought that that inde-
pendent course of action was more likely to be pursued by a
Government controlled; by a National Assembly. than .by a
Government purely arbitrary.—(Cheers..) The policy suc-
ceeded ; and although Narvaez, as Om Right Hon. Baronet
stated, is Minister of Spain, I cannot see any defeat of the
policy of England in that circumstance. ,Narvaez is
Minister; but the constitution is in force—(Cheers)—and
that constitution has, of late been much more strictly ob-
served than at the period to which the HOP. )3aronet, al-
luded. The Hon. Baronet found fault with a certain commu-
nication of mine, written in 1848 to Sir Henry Bulwer, and
he stated that it was objecLionable, noe. only on the ground
of interference, but in manner and in tone. Now, with re-
spect to manner and tone, there have been certain communi-
cations made to other Governments by persons in whom the
Right Honourable Baronet has confidence ( Laughter)—
couched in' language that might possibly admit of, the ap-
plicability of some of the criticisms which have been applied
to miee.—(Laughter.) There was a certain dispatch ad-
dressed by the Earl of Aberdeen to Sir Edmund Lyons, and
which was read elsewhere— (Laughter, the Noble. Lord pro-
ceeding leisurely to search for paper on the table)—and of
which I have a copyhere.—(Continued laughter.) It may
be taken as a specimen of a mild mode of interfering with the
internal arrrangements of other countries. Everyone knew
who Sir Richard Church was. 'He was, a distinguised
soldier who fought for. Greek independence, and was, long,
deserved honoured•and trusted by the Greek Government;
but, Sir Richard being supposed to sympathise with thatj
party who had extorted the constitution from the King, in'
1844, he was removed from. the appointment he held, of
Inspector-General of the Army, and was succeeded by a cer- '
tain General Grivas, whose former conduct had not been'
altogether free' from some imputation as to. loyalty to the
existing Government. The following is Lord Aberdeen's
letter of instruction to Sir Edmund Lyons
" Foreign-office,Dec. 2, 1814.
" Sir,—Her Majesty's Government have learnt, with deed
concern, the dismissal of General Sir Richard Church, by
his Majesty King Otho, from the post of Inspector-General
of the Greek Army, which post he had so honourably and
so usefully filled for many years. ' Their regret is increased
by finding that General Grivas, who was so recently engaged
in open rebellion against the. Throne, has been appointed to
succeed him.
" Her Majeety's Government do not propose to interfere
in this matter, since, however unjust the deprivation of Ge-
neral Church, and however injudicious the elevation of. Ge-
neral Grivas may have been, those acts were certainly
within the competence of the Greek Government.
" But although her Majesty's Government abstain from
interference, they deem it an imperative duty on their part,
considering the position in which Great Britain stands with
regard to Greece, as a creating and a guaranteeing power,
to express in the strongest terms their sense of the injus-
tice done to Sir Richard Church, one of the best, most dis-
interested, and most . efficient supporters of Greek bade-
pentience;' by an abrupt and ungracious dismissal, unaccom-
'panted by ohe word 'of commendation or acknowledgment
of his gmat„servicee Greece;.and4 also- their,. sew .of :the
extiess ,of imprudence and 'irapoliqv exhibited Alae., -ap-
pointment to one of the most responsible .offices ;under Ole
Crown of a man whoseree,errVeeriduct has shown him to be,
an enemy to the throne and a deliberate perverter of order
and discipline.
" Her Majesty's Government consider themselves to be
fully warranted by the overt acts of General Grivas himself
to instruct you to make known these sentiments distinctly,
in their name, to the Greek. Minister. for Foreign Affairs, as
well as to the King himself, should a favourable opportunity
present itself ; and, at the same time, to warn his Majesty
seriously and solemnly of the danger to which .he will ex-
pose his country and his throne by a perseverance in so fatal
a line of policy as he has recently pursued. .
" I am, &c.,
" ADERDEZN.

(Signed)
" Sir E. Lyons, Bart., G.C.8."
[This letter was read with much gusto by the Noble Lord,
who took care to point out the mere prominent points as he
went along. The House was kept literally in " a roar"
during the reading.] It is the writer of that dispatch who
condemns me fur my letter of July 19, 1846, to Sir Henry
Bulwer. My letter, be it remarked, was not a communica-
tion to a Sovereign—( Cheers) and the closing paragraph I
think the Right Hon. Baronet might have read, as well as
the other parts, because it explains the use I intended shonld
be made of my communication.. It.is as follows
" It was certainly not for the • purpose of subjecting the
Spanish nation to a grinding tyranny, that Great Britain
entered into the engagements of the Quadruple Alliance of
i 835, and gave, in pursuance of the stipulations of that
treaty, that active assistance which contribtited so materially
to the expulsion of Don Carlos from Spain. But her Ma-
jesty's Government are so sensible of the inconvenience of in-
terfering, even by friendly advice, in the internal affairs of
independent states, that I have to abstain from giving you in-
structions to make any representations whatever to the Spanish
Ministers on these matters; but though you will of course
take care to express on no occasion on these subjects senti-
ments different from those which I have thus explained to
you, and although you will be careful not lo express those
sentiments in any manner or upon, any occasion so as to be
likely to create, increase, or encourage discontent, yet you
need not conceal from any of those persons who may have the
power of remedying the existing evils, the fact that such epi-
nions are entertained by the British Government."--(Cheers.)
Looking at the two communications-.1-that of the Earl of
Aberdeen to Sir' Edmund Lyoni, and my dispatch to ISir
Henry Bulwer, I. really do think tat it is not from the for-
mer quarter that any condemnation should come.—(Cbeers,)
If I am nut worthy of condemnation, at all events my de-
tractors, are not worthy to condemn.— (Cheers.) It was Said
that the rudeness of my communication to the Spanish Go-
vernment was calculated to lead to a rupture, .and, that my
mention .of. Sir Henry. Bulwer as the person I would *ye
preferred sending to Madrid, bad his services_ been available,
was enough to disgust the Spanish Goveinment. I remem-
ber when .the question which arose out of previous transac-
tions was discussed, that no man spoke more handsomely of
the character, ability, and services of Sir Henry Bulwer,
than the Right Hon. :Baronet the Memberfor•Tainworth.—
(Cheers,) , And.. a eimilar feeling seemed to wrvade the
House. Well, it is not always that one is at liberty, to,tell
diplomatic secrets ; but.' am obliged, in self-defence, no take
the House into official confidence.—(Laughter.) Well, these
two notes—the one of apology, and the other of answer—were
mutually communicated to and approved by each Govern-
ment—(lmmense cheering)—they were communicated con-
fidentially from the one Government to the other, before
they were officially prOmulgated.—(Continued cheering.)
But, said the Right Hon. Baronet, this affair of Spain was of
long duration, and disastrous consequences arose because it
was followed by events involving matters ,connected with
another country, namely, France. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated that out of the Spanish marriages question a difference
arose bet Ween England and France, which even led to no-
thing. slighter than the overthrow of, a dynasty. There '
again comes in that fancy for narrowing great questions
down to the smallness of personal considerations, of which I
have already complained.—(Cheers:) The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet asserted, that it was my dislike which overthrew M.
Guizot,' and with it the reigning dynasty. What will the
people of France say.- a people of high spirit, and
full of a sense of their own dignity--when' they
hear 'it stated by a Member of the English Par-
liament, that it was in the power of an English
Minister to overthrow their form of government ?—(Cheers.)
Why, Sir, the French are a brave, a generous, and a noble-
minded people, and it they thought that there was a foreign
conspiracy formed against one of their Ministers—(Pro-
longed and general cheers) - I say, Sir, that if they had
reason to suppose that a knot of foreign conspirators were
caballing against one of their Ministers, whether directly or
indirectly, and for no other reason than that he had a special
regard to the interests of his own cosintry—(Cheers)—and
if, moreover, they had cause for suspecting that suck knot
of conspirators had coadjutors in their own country—l
know that the French, a brave and noble-spirited people,
would cling the closer to, and protect the more, the man
against whoin they thought the attack was directed.— (Cheers.)
If, then,, the French Government had thought that I had
wanted to overthrow M. Gnizot, the bare suspicion of any
such design on my part would only have had the effect of
Making him stronger.—(Hear, hear.) Sir. M. Guizot was
overthrown for very different reasons--(Hear, hear)---and
his overthrow was the more to be regretted, since there
was scarcely ever a man who alight have been better,
had he better read the lessons which history and experi-
ence afforded hiin —( Hear, hear.), Sir, I will not refer at any
length to the question .of the Spanish marriages. Ido not
wish to re-open questions gone by, or to remind this House
or the country. of the grounds of complaint that we may
have had against thosa no longer in power. But as this
question forms one 'count „of the long' indictment that has
been preferred against me, I must say, in my own defence,
that the dissatisfaction we felt on the subject of then Spa
com-
nish
marriages was not groundless, and that, judging m
munications that were 'made to me by the noble individual
.(Isocd A.berdeen) who preceded me in the, office I have the
hone& to liold7jiidging, I say, from the statements I had
front his mouth in that interview which always takes place
between the Minister going out and the Minister coming in,
promises were broken in the matter of these marriages
( Hear, hear t— promises, too, which had been made, not
only •between ,the Minsters themselves, but between higher
personages ( Ilear, hear)—and such as have never yet
been broken in the history of Eirope. —(Hear,,heer.) If,
then, we • did feel dissatisfaction with regard to thee mar-
riages, I ,think that •feeling ,was a just one 7-
(Cheers) —and that, -on every ground of national interest
and national honour, we were entitled, nay, bound, ,to
express it. (Cheers.) And, moreover. with respect to
France, I think that the
‘policy, we have pursued towards
that nation is a policy consistent with the interest of the
country, and characterised by ,tose principles which , the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite thinks ought to cha-
racterise the policy of this kingdom,• and calculated to pre-
serve the peace of the world.—(Hear, hear.) I think that
the relationi we have maintained with, the French nation,
and. with the many, chiefs , under whom its government has
been placed, are enough to show that we are animated by
friendly feelings towards that nation, and that we consider
the' maintenance of those friendly relations not only consis-
tent. with, but conducive to, the best interests of both coun-
,tries,i and that they form the firmest foundation for the peace
of Europe.—(Cheers.) But, Sir, the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Sir James Graham) insinuated
last :night
Lord Normanby, at the period immediately prec ing the
that
tevolution of 1848, was in too intimate connexion with
some of those by whom the throne of France was after-
Wards overthrown. Sir, I know not who the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman means, but this I do
the person with whom Lord Normsuby lived in the most in-
know, that
in-
timate connexion was Count Mole.—( Hear.) I have yet
to learn that Count Mold was likely to have had relauttions
with those who overthrew.the monarchy of
which has
been
made can, assure this House that if the statementt
a that Lord Nor-
made was meant to convey. any
this House that
mimby was holding any intercoinutrisme Inconsistent with his
daiy in the position he held--I can assure
the plains of Castile and
any such statement is altogether unfounded. Rear,
bear.) And now, Sir, lefte
tn
nowtaken to the
the fertile fertile soil of Franclre,egT
t which I ani to ren-
tains of Switzerland, as being
tae
p (Hear, hear, and
des a stricter account of muydser •
14this he-ad—is founded on a
laughter.) The charge
book by af. d'Haussonst lle the contents of which chiefly
conversation of individuals
consist,of recital' of t"
cob
th were
who little • thought that w t saying
ey
would form the •
the contents of a book, an still.
less- that they ' would. be - brought under the
notice •OfParliament. Now, as far as I can gather from the
Hon. Gentleman %Op peceded me, the charge was this '—
that in July, 1847; I deained a proposal of the Duke de
Broglie
to mediate between the two parties then contending
in Switzerland; that 1 changed my opinions in November,