The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-15 00:00:00

duce the House to allow him to introduce it.
If he should have the satisfaction of carrying this mea-
sure he could assure the House that in sanctioning it
they would receive the gratitude of the great body of
the people. It was the object of the Bill that the insti-
tutions which it sought to establish, popular as they
wore in their object, should be popular in their origin—
that they might be founded by the people, sustained by
the people, and enjoyed by the people. With these ob-
servations, he begged to move for knee to bring in a
Bill to enable town councils to establish public libraries
and museums.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BROTHERTON seconded the motion.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
MINISTERS' MONEY IN IRELAND.
Mr. WILLIAM FAGAN presented a petition nu-
merously signed from Cork against ministers. money.
The Hoer. GENTLEMAN then rose to move for a Com-
mittee of the whole House, to take into consideration
the law relating to the rate or tax called " ministers'
money." in Ireland, with the view to the repeal of so
much thereof as relates to the said rate or tax; and fur-
ther to take into consideration the Act 3 and 4 Will.
IV., c. 114, called " The Church Temporalities Act," for
the purpose of amending the same so as to provide
thereby a substitute out of the revenues of the Ecclesi-
astical Commissioners as a provision for the Protes-
tant ministers in certain corporate towns in Ire-
land, in lieu of the annual sums now re-
ceived by thorn, under and by virtue of the
Act 17 and 18 Charles 11., cap. 7. The Honourable
Member stated as a reason for his motion, that the vex
called ministers' money pressed with great severity
upon the poorer classes of the Roman Catholic popula-
tion in the large towns of Ireland, particu-
larly in Dublin, Cork, Clonmel, Kinsale, and Water-
ford, and led to lamentable and endless
sectarian rancour among the Irish people. Ho
thought that the least that the Catholic population
of those towns could ask from the Government was, that
they should be freed from this odious impost. Last year
he bad endeavoured to show that a substitute could be
easily provided from the funds of the Ecclesiastical Corn-
mission.On that occasion the Right Hon. Baronet the Home
Secretary had moved the previous quo tion, which he
took as a proof that he (the Right Hon. Baronet) ac-
knowledged the justice of his sentiments. In a private
interview which he had had with the Right Hon. Baronet,
he had understood him to be favourable to his project;
and in addition to this, he argued from the late visit of
her Majesty to Ireland that the Government were desir-
ous of relieving the known grievances of that country.
It was in this stage of the question, that he (Mr. Fogel)
came forward to provide a substitute for this tax.
On the death of the principal bishops the income of the
Ecclesiastical Commission in Ireland would be increased
by the sum of 13,5004, making a total income of 300,0001.,
and he submitted that it would be of advantage to the
Commission to encourage the purchase of perpetuities,
and in other ways to relieve the people of this impost
He proposed that the sale of perpetuities should be ap-
plied as income till the revenue of the Ecclesiastical Com-
mision should be increased. Ho had prepared a Bill, if
the House would allow him to bring it in, to meet the dif-
ficulty of the case, which measure he thought, with the
advance of 30,0001, would obviate every difficulty.
There was no such thing as ministers' money in Eng-
land, and ho did not see why the Catholics of Ireland
should be burthened with it. He deprecated the neces-
sity of their corning there year after year to put
an end to so miserable a tax of 15,000/. a year, while
the Protestant Church were in possession of almost all
the best lands of Ireland. The Hon. and Learned
Member concluded by moving the resolution of which he
had given notice.
The motion having been seconded, and the question
put,
Sir G. GREY said that the Hon. Gentleman had
brought forward his statement that night in the s tine
spirit of moderation and fairness as that which had
marked his speech of last session, and he had nothing
whatever to complain of in the manner in which he had
argued his motion. Ile regretted, however, that the
circumstances being identically what they were when he
brought the question forward before, he was compelled
to lake the same course, and to move the previous ques-
tion. The Hon. Gentleman had stated that which he
admitted was much to be deplored, that the incomes of
some of the clergy in certain towns in Ireland, under the
Act of Charles 11., were dependent on the ministers'
money, which was regarded as an obnoxious tax by
those who had to pay it. It appeared before the Com-
mittee, the report of which the Hos. Gentleman had
referred to, that the comduct cf those clergymen in fore-
going their claire rather than incur the odium to their
religion and hazard their amicable position with their
parishioners had been highly commendable ; hut he
thought that when his Honourable Friend referred
to this Committee, he did not distinctly state
what the recommendation of that Committee
was. The Committee, adverting to similar pro-
positions for providing a substitute, stated that
the ministers' money could not be abolished withouVa
substitute being provided, and without the Honoural;lo
Gentleman concurred. The Committee went On to say
that having instituted an inquiry into the fends of the
Ecclesiastical Commission, they had received every fa-
cility from Sir Henry Meredith, &c., by whom they had
been furnished with documents which were appended to
the report, and the Committee came to the conclusion,
that there wire net sufficient funds to be applied as a
substitute for ministers' money, but that the income of
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was adequate to the
actual expenditure ; and that as a large increase
would hereafter take place in the funds of tho Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, in this state of things the
Committee thought it right that the augmentation of
the funds might be rendered applicable to ministers'
money when that augmentation should arise. They
thought that the substitute might apply, and that there
was no doubt that this obnoxious impost would be
abolished. There had been a suggestion, he believed,
thrown out by some witnesses, that this harge should
be thrown on some Government fund, say the Consoli-
dated Fund.—(A. laugh.) He thought it desirable that
some substitute should be found, but there did not ex-
let at present any funds available to those purposes ;
therefore ho was compelled to move the previous
question.
The previous question having been put,
Mr. M. POWER said this tax was a most obnoxious
one, because it fell exclusively on the poorer Roman
Catholic artisans, and the money was often obtained by
there sure of their goods, and even their clothed, and
the' very pots in which they boiled their Indian meal
were subject to the rapacity of the emissaries of the
clergy. They were told the difficulty of removing this
tax was the finding a substitute; but he thought that his
Hon. Friend had pointed out clearly what the substitute
ought to be. He asked the House, whether it was not a
gross mockery that this abuse should be allowed to con-
tinue, and that the richest church in the world should be
unable to provide for the poorer clergy in certain towns
who were thrown upon this fund? Let justice be
done to Ireland in this and all other cases of real
grievance.
Mr. HUME—The Right Hon. Baronet had said that
this question came before the House under similar cir-
cumstances to those of last session. But he begged to
remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that since that time
her Majesty had been to Ireland, and had been pleased
to declare her desire to remove all grounds of complaint
in Ireland. But here was a payment which was un-
equally assessed in a few towns, and which fell upon
Roman Catholics only. Church cess had been done
away with in that House, and this tax should be dealt
with in the same way. He protested against this im-
post, more especially as a similar impost was levied in
Edinburgh, and in the town which he represented.
This ministers' money bore the stamp of oppression
upon it.

Mr. MONSELL said it was not his object to discuss
the question of the Irish Church, but to refute an ob-
servation of his Right Hon. Friend the Home Secre-
tary. His Right lion. Friend admitted the grievance
complained of and refused to redress it. In many eases
of turnpike Bills, or other matters of le.aer import-
ance, that might be a good argument; but where a large
number of people wore interested, he could not think
that was a sufficient answer to that House. He would
read to the House an answer given by the Lord Bishop
of Limerick. His Right Rev. Friend was, he believed,
looked up to by everybody in his diocese, and he, after
stating what the grievance was, and after stating the
means by which it ought to be removed, by taking a
sufficient sum out of the funds of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners, continued:—" But:to this it may be re-
plied, that for many years they would cut off the means
to build new churches. His answer was that it
was only the choice of evils, and that of the two
courses it was most important to provide for the pro-
per wants of the clergy." Then he had the opi-
nion of the Bishop of Down also, who stated that
almost all the payers of the tax were Roman Catholics.
And it would be remembered by any one who attended
before the Committee, that so unjust was the system of
valuation that a poor person whose house was valued at
GO!. some years since, though it had since fallen to the
value of 261, paid the same amount of ministers' money
as Messrs. Beamish's property, which was valued to the
poor-rate at 2,300/. Another clergyman said that to en-
forae his right must interrupt the harmony which ex-
isted
between himself and his parishioners. That cler-
gyman observed that he was aware that many clergymen
could net make this sacrifice, as in some cases the whole
of their income was derived from this source. There-
fore these clergymen did not agree with the Government
its to the removal of so unjust and obnoxious a tax. lie
concluded by simply raying that if the Government ex-
pected the people of Ireland to entertain those feelings
of affection which he earnestly wished they should, the
Government would take the earliest opportunity of re -
Moving an impost which he believed no other people in
tho world would bear, and whicflj while it continued,
would create feelings of disaffection.
Mr. NAPIER thought that the nature and character
of this tax was much misunderstood. It was not per-
sonally a tax on Roman Catholic occupiers,, It was
continued on the settlement of -property in the tine of
Charles IL, and it was a very different charge from 'a.:at
was generally supposed. He admitted there was much
inconvenience in the collection of the money. He ad-
mitted that in many cases the clergy had forbore their
rights, rather than hazard any disagreement with their
parishioners. But the fact was, that this money was
originally put on corporate towns in Ireland at the time
when they were exclusively Protestant, and by an Act
of Charles 11. the whole property was remodelled, and
the course taken was this:—People who had been dis-

possessed of property in the towns got property allotted
them outside of the towns, and the corporate towns were
inhabited by English .ettlers. The Crown had then the

whole fee uf the propcnty, no one had any right in it
but Charles II.; aid having invited English settlers
to these towns, he then provided that thole shou!il be
a charge on the house for the purpose of supporting
certain of the clergy. And so far from thos who
rPc‘qvcd money ever preaching dwtrines were
would apptAil ti both Itomen aLd
Protestants whether there cold.' be a more dil gent, usc-
ful, or benevolent body of men to be found in any part
of Ireland. The charge being Oa the owners of houses,