The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-26 00:00:00

Mr. TRELAWNY having briefly replied, the motion ;
wag negatived without t division.
The llone then went into
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE
ESTIMATES. _ _

Colonel ANSON said he regretted that be hal not the
opportunity of bringing forward the ordnance estimates
in the ordinary way, and that he had now to adopt the
unusual course of asking the Committee to vet, a sum of
money on account, for the purpose of defraying the ex-
penditure which would become due after the close of the
financial year. It was very desirable that these esti-
mates should be proposed at an early period of the ses-
sion; and he admitted there was great inconvenience in
the delay which had taken pluce—an inconvenience alike
to the Government, to the der artment, and to this House.
—(Hear, hear.) But, however anxious the Government
might be to expedite the public business, and however
desirous the department might be to have the sanction of
Parliament to enable it to carry on the service which was
placed more immediately under its control, the House must
be aware that there were circumstances which the Go•
vernment could not control, which would interfere with
business of importance being brought forward, and that
this was owing generally to measures which ba-I origi-
neted with independent Members of this house, who
acre entirely unconnected with the Government.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile merely mentioned this to show that
neither the Government nor the department was at fault
for the delay that had occurred, end for his being
obliged to have recourse to the present unusual pro-
ceeding before a general statement was made with re-
gard t) the ordnance estimates, and the expenditure to
be incurtsi for them. The House was aware that no
funds were available fir the public service, unless sanc-
tioned by Parliament, until after the termination of
the financial year; end as this would take place within
the Easter recess, and certain payments must be made
within that time, it was evident that the course he pro-
posed to adopt was the only one now open to him. He
knew the deep interest which was taken by this House
in matters of public expenditure, and he should not be
doing justice to the department he had the honour to re-
present if he now entered into an explanation of the de-
tails of all the votes. He would pr:-for doing that when the
estimates came regularly before the House. He trusted
the Committee would agree to this course, and that
they would give him permission to place a motion fur
certain votes on account in the hands of the Chairman,

the whole amounting to about 600,0001. in the aggregate,
to enable her Majesty to provide for the service which
would come due after the close of the financial year. lie
had permission from his Noble Friend at the head of
the Government to state that on the first supply day
after the recess the ordnance estimates would be brought
forward, and that ample opportunity would be given for
discussing them. He would now propose a sum, on ac•
count, of 60,0001. towards defraying the expense of pay
and allowances for the ordnance military corps.
Mr. HUME thought the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
had properly reserved his general statement; and as the
present votes were merely to enable the Government to
carry on the department, he would not throw any diffi-
culty in the way of the course proposed.
Mr. SPOONER said, that to bring forward these esti-
mates on the first supply day after the recess would be
highly objectionable, on account of so many Hon. Mem-
bers having to attend quarter sessions.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) It might be a subject for merriment with some,
but there could be no doubt that the Noble Lord would
like to have a full House for the discussion of the esti-
mates.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL had already, to oblige Hon. Mem-
bers, postponed several Bills, and amongst them the
Australian Government Bill. If he were to give up the
first day after the recess also, it would occasion con-
siderable inconvenience.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY asked when it was intended
;o take the miscellaneous estimates?

Lord J. RUSSELL could not then mention the day,
there being some questions relating to the miscellaneous
estimates which were not yet finally settled.
The rote was agreed to, as were also the following

A sum, on account, of 100,000/. towards defraying the
expense of commissariat and barrack supplies.
A sum, on account, of 20,000/. towards defraying the
expense of the Ordnance-office.
A sum, on account, of 60,0001. towards defraying the
expense of establishments in the United Kingdom and
the colonies.

A sum, on account, of 50,0001. towards defraying the
expense of the wages of artificers and labourers in the
United Kingdom and the colonies.
A sum, on account, of 100,000/. towards defraying
the expense of ordnance stores for land and sea
services.

A sum, on account, of 150,000/. towards defraying
the expense of works, buildings, and repairs, at home
and abroad. _ _ _ _ .

On the vote of 20,000/. being proposed for defraying
the expense of the scientific branch,
Mr. HUME inquired, with respect to the stores to
which a preceding vote referred, whether there was an
account of all the old stores that were sold last year to be
had, stating how long the articles were in store, when
they were sold, and what they were sold for? Such an
account was requisite, because the loss to the public on
stores was very great.
Colonel ANSUN would be prepared to mention all
that had been done in that respect when he made his
statement on the subject to the House.
The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 40,0001
towards defraying the expense of the non-effective
service.

The House then resumed.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and
The report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow
(this day), at twelve o'clock.
THE CHIEF JUSTICES' SALARIES BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER moved—" That it be an in-
struction to the said Committee, that they have power to
make provision for the prospective reduction of the sala-
ries and emoluments of the Lord Chancellor, the Master
of the Rolls, the Vice-Chancellors, the Chief Baron, and
the puisne judges." He was not aware why the Noble
Lord and the Government should be so anxious that this
Bill should receive the sanction of the House. As it was
wished to have a Committee of Inquiry on this subject,
it would be more becoming in them to delay ;his motion.
He could not conceive why the present Lord Chief Jus-
ttce should not submit to the same arrangement which
had been made with respect to the late Lord Chief Jus-
tice (Lord Denman) until the report of the Committee
was laid on the table, and the opinion of Parliament was
known. He should not now press his motion, but reserve
his observations till the report of the Committee was be-
fore the House.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he thought that an
opportunity offering it should be at once embraced to
settle the salary of the Lord Chief Justice in future.
Lord Brougham had objected upon principle to the
Lord Chief Justice being allowed a salary of 10,000/. a
year, and only by consent receiving 8,0001. The exe-
cutors of the late Lord Chief Justice might, it was
thought, have a legal claim to the difference between
10,000/. aed 6,000/, and it was to prevent the possibi- '
lity of a similar claim on the part of the present Lord
Chief Justice that the Government had introduced this
Bill. As notice of is Committee to inquire into the
salaries of the Lord Chief Justices had been given, if
any other vacancies occurred in the offices that were
to be the subject of inquiry, appointments would be
made, subject to a reduction such as Parliament might
desire.
Mr. MULLINGS said that the Act of Parliament
did not fix the salary of the Lord Chief Justice at
10.000/. It was simply permissive. The Honourable
Gentleman read the provisions of the Act (2 and 3
William IV., cap. 116) under which the salaries of the
chief justices were authorised to be granted. The sala-
ries were not fixed, as supposed, but only authorised to
be granted to that amount, if it should be thought fit so
to fix the salary. In support of this construction he
might quote the authority of Sir Edward Sugden. This
Bill was therefore wholly unnecessary, and the only
effect of it would be as an indication of the opinion of
Parliam,nt that tlie salary of the Lord Chief Justice
should be fixed at 8,0001. He thought these salaries too
large, considering the state of the country. lie asked
the Government to pospone this Bill. If they did not,
upon going into Committee, he would move an amend-
ment, if he stood alone. Ile again asked to have the Bill
postponed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the law, as
stated by the Hon. Gentleman, was not correct. If it
were the legal construction, let the judge offend the Go-
vernment and they might at once reduce his salary.—
(Hear, hear.) The principle of the Acts of Parliament,
and the intention of the Legislature, was to make the
judges of the land independent, and nothing could be
more detrimental to the public interest than to make the
salary of the judges dependent upon the will of the Go-
vernment of the day. The words of the Act were, not
that a salary not exceeding 10,0001. should be granted,
but that the salary of the Lord Chief Justice be 10,0001.
If the life of Lord Denman was to come to a close, and
his will was silent upon the subject, he very much
doubted whether the executors of that Noble and
Learned Lord would not be compelled to enforce the
payment of the extra 2,0001. per annum, which Lord
Denman had not received, otherwise they would be
guilty of, to use a technical term, devastavit. He thought
the introduction and passing of this measure was abso-

lutely necessary.
Mr. HUME asked, did not the Act of 1825 establish
the right that the salary should be 10,0001. per annum,
and therefore give the executors of Lord Demean a
power to recover the 2,0001. not paid for the last eighteen
years, but this sum he felt assured would not be claimed.
lie felt a great satisfaction that the Noble Lord (Lord
J. Russell) had consented to the appointment of a Corn-
soittee to regulate the salaries ot the judges, for the
main question before them would be the expenditure of
mare than half a million sterling. In a word, he thought
the, proposed income was too much, fJr in 1792 the
salary did not exceed 4,0001. per annum, and at that
time the puisne judges and others had net more than
3,000/. per annum. Then there was an increase in the
Lord Chia Justice's salary in 1819, and another in
1823, to the amount of 10,0001. per annum. He should
next allude to the immense expense of 67,0001, which
was paid out of the suitors' fund to the judges, and
which fund he was ot opinion sheuld be thrown into the
tre .sury. In fie, he looked upon this motion as pre-
mature, particularly as the Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) had pledged himself to bring in a Bill to make
a reduction in the appointments made before last session.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he felt it his duty to support
the Government on this occasion, though he should at
the same time say that there had been very great negli-
gence on their part in not bringing in a Bill long since
to prevent the doubts that must necessarily arise in the
public mind from such a delay. He did not apprehend
anything from Lord Denman as to the demand of 2 000/,
a year tor the last eighteen years; but he thought that
care should be taken against the power of the executors,
who should necessarily wake this demand on the demise
of Lord Denman. He also considered that it would be
premature to enter on the question of the salaries of the
Lord chief Justices of the Queen's Denob, and of the