The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-10 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 10, 1850.

every exertion to meet the wishes of Government by
teem ie. Vnll.l Ec'eunty for the loon I,e erreioe
for the improvement of Irish estate e; hut in the,. ties are!
the Irish proprietors with wham he was coneeete ! found
that they were totally disappointed; for that Gt•N ermoclit
had no notion of granting that loan which heel beet;
mooted by them. He should, however, :ay 11 it Le eas
glad that this measure was introduced, and slid nut
therefore moan to oppose it; but so far from thet, hop: d
that her Majesty's Government would seepurt the tell,
as he considered it would be very conducive to the inte-
rests and welfare o; the Irish proprietor aid the Irrsh
larmer.—(Hear, hear.) He was highly gratified with
the clear sad intelligible exposition of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and hoped from that exposition that a cern-
petition would not be raised between the Irish proprietor
and other parties, such as the London Ccmpan„ wl.o,
by their wealth, could not be competed with; end he felt
bound to add, that he did not think that the purchasers
would have any advantage by a Parliamentary Bill. He
I then adverted to the abuse of a sale of a gentleman's
property in the county of Westmeath, whose name he
did not wish to mention. This could not but elicit the
indignation of every Hon. Member, when he was informed
that that property was sold under the Encumbered Es-
tates Bill for 6001., which was only one year and a halt's
purchase, and that he attributed solely to the bad legisla-
tion of the present Government.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that though he agreed with the
encumbered estates measure to a certain extant, yet he
considered that many a landed proprietor in Ireland was
materially injured by its working, in consequence of
new creditors coming suddenly on those proprietors like
a set of harpies to annoy them in the moment of their
difficulties and embarrassment. lie thought that nothing
could be more unjust than that Government should em-
power creditors to dispose of property after only two
days' notice, particularly when many of those landed
proprietors could not obtain their rent for the last two
years, and he therefore thought that if it were the in-
tention of the Government to make stringent laws for
the sale of land, that they should give the landlords ano-
ther more forcible power to recover their rents, particu-
larly as many of the landlords had expended large sums
of money for the improvement of those lands. He was
ef opinion that if the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken
a retrospective view of this measure, that much good
would be effected; yet he should say that be doubted
the sale of the property in the county of Mayo to which
the Hon. and Gallant Member (Colonel Dunne) alluded.
4r. FRENCH said that he could assure the Hon.
Baronet (Sir L. O'Brien) that the property alluded
to by his Hon. and Gallant Friend (Colonel Dunne) was
located in the county Mayo, and that its income being
400/. per annum, it was sold for 6001., which was only a
year and a half's purchase, for he knew the proprietor,:a
Mr. AtfLaughlin. When he referred to this case he
was reminded of the 658 cases under the Court of
Chancery, of which number only four were disposed of
under the Encumbered Estates Act. The Lion. Gentle-
men then alluded to several cases of property being sold
at a considerable discount, some of which were sold at
8:-1 per cent. under the ordnance valuation. He was to-
tally at a loss to account for this new light which had
beamed on the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Solicitor-
General) which never appeared before, and which, it
appeared, tended to inutile all the members of the Go-
vernment, namely, that there was a great quantity of
land to be sold in Ireland.
Mr. NAPIER objected to the introduction of this Eill
on the same grounds as he had opposed the Encumbered
Estates Bill, because he thought many would be ruined
by such a measure. When he heard it advanced as an
argument in favour of this Bill that there had been much
land brought into the market, be would ask what was
to become of the claims of the many creditors, who
would not receive a fair dividend of the sale, and should
add that, though it was necessary that some experiment
should be tried, yet that the pi esent was quite auotna!oue
as not being likely to meet the demands or wishes of
any party. Ile therefore thought it was of the utmost
importauce to make every endeavour to support the
le.ndei interest in Ireland by the introduction of some
measure prelerable to the present in the opinion of all
persons connected with the landed interest. Ile should
say, with respect to the property sold in the county of
Mayo, to which the Hoc. Gentlemen (Mr. French)
alluded, that the low purchase v. as melee; to a want of
advertising the :ale. He thought, therefore, that this
measure—certainly an experimental one—de :creed the
greatest attention, and he should, if the Bill were allowed
to be brought in, give it every attention in his power,
so ac to assist in making it as perfect as possible.
Mr. SADLEIR would suggest to the Government
that there should be an arrangement by which the :time
might be fixed, for greater convenience between parties,
and also a place, when and where this money might be
paid,
:without making it peremptory to pay it into the
Bank of Ireland, and also that there should be an ar-
rangement entered into, by which the Bank of Ireland
might lend money on land debentures in Ireland, as the
Beide of England had done in times of great depression
of landed interests in England. lie thought that every
allowance should be made for proprietors of estates in
Ireland whose encumbrances were yet moderate, and that
every exertion should be allowed them to keep them-
selves, as far as possible, out of the operation of the
Encumbered Estates Bill; but he apprehended that the
`• nursing" of estates, on which there were encumbrances,
would be productive of injury to the owners, and would
ultimately bring them within the operation of the Bill.
He thought that great credit was due to the Solicitor-
General for having proposed a 13111 which, like this,
would facilitate the advancement of money on landed
property in Ireland. It had been said by some Hon.
Members in the House, that nothing could be more im-
politic and injurious on the part of the Government
than affording a facility to landed proprietors in Ireland
to borrow money on the security of their lands in Ire-
land; but nothing could be more erroneous, and on those
grounds, amongst others, he confessed he was glad to see
such a Bill as the present brought under the considera-
tion of the House.
Mr. STAFFORD hoped he was under a misappre-
hension, if he understood the Solicitor-General to say
that the Government had given up all idea of encou-
raging the investment of English capital in the purchase
of in Ireland. It he was wrong in that impression
he should rejoice, because he regarded such a statement
as calculated to lead to the greatest mischief in relation
to the interests of the people of Ireland, and of that
country generally. They could not improve Ireland,
legislate as they would, until they get English capital
introduced into that country, and they need not hope for
improvement in Ireland until they have a certainty of
English security for the capital that might he invested
in that country. He could not Lit down without saying
that the greatest credit was due to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman the Solicitor-General, for his exertions in
the measures which he had introduced, to raise Ireland
from her low condition; and while he made that acknow-
ledgment, he would take the opportunity of saying that
great allowance ought to be made, and he trusted would
be made, for the unfortunate individuals whose proper-
ties were encumbered, and that every indulgence would
be extended to them in their effints to extricate their
estates from the encumbrances upon them, before resort-
ing to the extreme course of a sale.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL explained that the
expression which ho made use of with respect to his
apprehension that English capitalists would not invest
their money in the purchase of trail estates did not ex-
press the opinion of the Government, but his own. He
thought, in forming that opinion, that persons who wore
about to purchase property had generally some idea of
going to reside on it, and as matters stood in IrCaud, be
doubted that English capitalists would have any great
desire to go and reside iu that country, and therefore he
came to the conclusion that it was not very likely that
English capital would be invested in the purchase of
landed property in Ireland. With respect to the state-
ment that an estate in Ireland had been sold for a year
and a half's purchase, he might remark that the whole
cf the property might he sold for a liability of the owner,
no matter what might be due, provided the owner did
not pay. That was to say, if the owner of a property
did not pay, the covenanter could sell either part or the
whole of the property for the encumbrance with which
it was charged. The case, however, of this property of
400/, a year having been sold for a year and a halt's
purchase, ought to be inquired into, to ascertain if any-
thing wrong, or requiring redress, had taken place in the
transaction.—(hear, hear.) Great difficulties, however,
lay in the way of a sale. The House would recollect,
that under the Act, it was necessary that the creditors
selling any estate should state the amount of rent which
it let for. Now, he could state instances to the House of
Cases wherein, when inquiries were made on the subject,
neither the owner of the estates, nor the stewards, nor
tie tenants who occupied the lands, knew what the
rent of those estates amounted to.—(Laughter.) The
landlord did not know it, the steward did not know it,
and, with respect to the tenants, all they knew about it
was, that the steward came there from time to time to
and took as much as he could.—(Much laughter.)
Leave was then given to bring in the
SUPPLY.

The Report of the Committee of Sapply was broughtt

up.
Several resolutions having been agreed to, on the re-
solution for defraying the expenses of the commissariat,
Mr. SPOONER put a question with refdrence to
some unoccupied ground purchased for barracks which
had not yet been built upon.
Lord J. RUSSELL regretted he could not reply to
the question—the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary
for the Home. Department not being in the House.
Mr. SPOONER thought some account should be ren-
dered to the House of what was done with the money.
The resolution was then agreed to.
On the resolution for the defraying the expenses of
the Admiralty and offices,
Colonel SIBTHORL' said he was well aware how
useless it was for so small a man as he was in that House
to attempt to raise an objection successfully to such a
vote. He had endeavoured the other evening to dis-
charge a painful duty—for no one was more attached to
the t,s o services, the army and navy, than the humble
individual who then addressed them. Be was bound to
make that declaration, for those who had gone before
him, and those whom he loved, had been and were in
those services. He had lost an amiable brother iu the
nsvy, who had not been undistinguished in his lifetime.
He had two sons in the army, he was not ashamed to say
—one of whom had not been undistinguished in the ser-
vica of his country at Moultan. Those ties must natu-
rally make him attached to the service, and therefore he
was justified in saying he discharged a painful task when
he rose the previous nigh!, from a sense of public duty,
and proposed the reductions which he did. He could
have no other motive for his proceeding than his public
duty. Ile knew but few of the parties—his old friend
the First Lord of the Admiralty and his respected friend
Admiral Dund;fs—and when he proposed reductions in
the salaries of the superior clerks, who, be believed, per-
formed their duties in a most efficient manner, he only
did so because .he was actuated by those principles of
economy which were professed by his side of the douse,
and by tbq other side also, but very little practised.
Ile took the sense of the House on his motion, and he
flattered himself he should have been supported by a
k vast number of lion. Members on his side of the House,