The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-13 00:00:00

CONVICT PRISONS BILL.

Earl GREY moved the third reading of this Bill.
Lord LYTTELTON thought that in several important
respects the present measure was a great improvement.
He regarded the separate imprisonment and the penal
labour on public works, which by this Bill were to precede
transportation, as of the greatest possible benefit. There
were some persons, at the head of whom was Arch-
bishop Whately, who considered it chimerical to attempt
to reform criminals, and declared that the great object
of punishment should be to deter others from the com-
mission of crime. On the other hand, Captain Mac-
conochie and his followers thought that all efforts should
be directed to the reformation of criminals, and that very
little attention should be paid to those who urged that
punishment should,be inflicted to deter others from crime.
U'he present measure attempted to combine the two, but
he objected to the sending out criminals with tickets of
leave, as being a revival of the old assignment system,
and he doubted whether it would be attended with suc-
cess. He gave great credit to his Noble Friend for
having abstained from attempting to press on the co-
lony of New South Wales the reception of convicts.
The case of the Cape of Good Hope showed how
futile inch an attempt must be, yet he must say that he
thought the people of New South Wales were blind to
their own interests, and failed in their duty to the em-
pire,wh en they refused to receive convicts.—(Hear,'hear.)
He, however, recommended that the same course of
proceeding should be adopted with regard to that colony
which had been adopted with regard to the Cape,
and that the order in Council should be withdrawn.
He thought, however, that much of the objection on the
part of the Australian colonists was to be attributed to
the neglect of the Government authorities to form proper
regulations, and this was more particularly the case at
Port Philip. He thought it was impossible to
read the papers laid on the table without
being convinced of the precariousness of the continuance
of the system of transportation to Van Diemen's
Land. Free settlers had been encouraged
to settle there, and the feeling of the co-
lony was against the reception of convicts there.
He well remembered the state of confusion in which the
question of transportation was left when himself and his
colleagues left office, but he thought the confusion had
been increased by the conduct of the present Govern-
ment. The colonists of Van Diemen's Land considered
that they had received a pledge that in 1846 trans-
portation should cease, and they now threw that
pledge in the teeth of the Government, which
attempted to introduce convicts into Van Diemen's
Land after a probation at Norfolk Island,
which could only be considered as a large gaol, and he
believed on the whole a well-regulated and a safe gaol.
It appears that persons going out there with a condi-
tional pardon, which they were to receive after serving
in the penal works, wore to be freed from all
restraint, and to be treated altogether as free
persons, except that they were not to bo permitted
to return to this country. It way not surprising that
the colonists objected to the reception of these persons.
A pledge had been given that for every batch of convicts
sent out an equal number of free settlers shoul I be sent
out to Van Diemen's Land by the Government. He
feared this would tend to deteriorate the character of the
free settlers. Who would like to be sent out as a sort of
maltewe'ght to a convict ? With regard to the consent
of Western Australia to receive convicts, it was not sur-
prising that the perishing colony should catch at any
straw to save themselves from impending ruin for want
of labour; but the Governor of the colony had distinctly
stated that if any oner method could be devised for ob-
taining the requisite supply of labour, the colonists of
Western Australia would be among the first to refuse to
receive convicts.

Lord WODEHOUSE expressed his general approval
of the Government plan, and especially of the plan of
separate confinement, which he thought would prove a
very severe punishment to the usual class of prisoners,
by debarring them from intercourse with their compa-
nions in crime, and preventing them from talking over
their past depredations and planning fresh ones. With
regard to that part of the scheme which related to the
employment of convicts on public works, he thought with
due care and supervision it would be found successful,
although there were considerable difficulties to contend
with. The remaining part of the scheme he thought
open to more doubt. He was aware how impracticable
it was to devise any satisfactory scheme of secondary
punishment, without having recourse to transportation.
There was, besides, this double advantage connected
with transportation, that it finally got rid of a large
number of criminals who would otherwise be periodically
returned into the population of the country, and also
afforded the colonies the benefit of a large supply of
cheap labour. Ile thought, however, that the evils
which were entailed on the colony by such a constant
accession of crime counterbalanced the advantages
which they received, and that, under those circumstances
the reception of convicts ought not to be forced on any
colony against its will, and he decidedly disapproved of
any attempt to do so.
The Earl of CHICHESTER expressed his concur-
rence with the view if the last speaker. He objected
also to the principle of colonies being chosen for the re-
ception of transported convicts, as it could not but be
productive of the utmost danger to ourselves and other
countries to endeavour to build up nation of such mate-
rials. He never expected that transportation, under
certain limitations, should be given up for secondary
punishments. He considered the measure before the
House was one in the right direction, but still it should
be followed ty others more general and stringent. The
Secretary- of State should be bound to report annually to
Parliament as to the distribution of convicts, and there
ought also to be an annual inspection of those convicts.
An annual report of the manner in which the Govern-
ment exercised their powers in this respect would be at-
tended with great advantage, and would impart confi •
deuce to the duo administration of criminal justice. Ho
utterly disclaimed any hostility to the measure; but still
he maintained that the system, in order to be thoroughly
efficacious, should be more extensive. He was formerly
opposed to the employment of convicts on public works
before transportation, because he thought their asso-
ciation immediately after solitary confinement consider-
ably weakened its moral benefit ; bat he had altered
his opinion, on the favourable reports of inspectors,
and on information derived from other sources. Ho
anxiously hoped that the Government, having adopted
this system, would carry it out in a liberal spirit as to
the manner of its extension, so that in a short time
they would find all the hulks abolished, and every con-
vict prisoner secured the benefit of moral and religious
attendance.
Lord STANLEY admitted that in the earlier stages
of punishment intended for convicts there was a greater
facility for supervision and control in the mother country
than, in the colonies. For that reason he approved, to
a certain extent, of the proposed measure. He admitted
the advisability of greater superintendence, while at the
same time, it was his impression that the system of
punishment introduced and recommended by the First
Lord of the Treasury had not been fairly tried. From
the last reports of the inspectors of Portland prison, he
found that the experiment appeared to work satisfacto-
rily. With a great proportion of convicts the very name
of transportation carried terror, and had the effect of
deterring from crime. Another reason why he re-
joiced that transportation was still to be continued was
that it would remove convicts from the scene of
their former transgressions and from contact with
their old associates, so that a fair chance might be
afforded them of becoming thoroughly reformed. If not
removed to a distant country they would always be sub-
ject to old temptations, and, in all probability, brought
back to crime either by the threats or promises of vicious
companions. For these reasons it was of the utmost im-
portance that male convicts should be finally removed to
a penal colony, after undergoing the preliminary stages
of punishment in this country. That being his opinion,
be conceived that if transportation were to be continued,
a vast deal more would have to be done, and they should
not diminish the ultimate urgency of the punishment.
The old principle of assignment, he considered, had been
too hastily abandoned; and in announcing that the sys-
tem of transportation to New South Wales would cease
within a certain brief period after the announcement, he
considered the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
bad acted with Over-haste, and had caused an un-
due pressure on a single colony, Van Diemen's
Land, by selecting it as the single receptacle
for convicts, especially as the House of Com-
mons had, almost concurrently, by special resolution,
put a stop to imprisonment or transportation in hulks.
At that period
steps were taken for the pur-
pose of diminishing the inconvenience by authorising
the Governor of Van Diemen's Land to establish set-
tlements, with the view of enabling ticket-of-leave men
to become settlers, and obtain their own livelihood. Ac-
cording to the plan of the Noble Lord at the head of the
colonial department, there would be a greater number of
convicts, after undergoing the preliminary stages of
punishment, sent to Van Diemen's Land than under the
old system, and he thought that great encouragement
was given that colony by what had occurred at the Cape
of Good Hope to revolt against the introduction of so
considerable a number of convicts. What security was
there that Van Diemen's Land would not resist, or that
all the moral inconveniences of such a deportation would
not be renewed? Government should look beyond five
or ten years, as to the result of overcrowding Van Die-
men's Land with convicts. The proposition of accom-
panying them with a certain amount of free labour,
would increase that of which there was already a super-
abundance.—(llear, hear.) He had thought it right
to make those observations, not with a view to throw
any impediment in the way of the experiment Govern-
ment was making, as he thought in what they were
doing they were actuated by the best intentions; but be
had thought it requisite not to allow the third reading
of the Bill to pass without reminding the Government j
which
must urse, thatin t
that they must look forward to what would inevitably
happea from the adoption of the presentlii
they were only staving off the evil day w
few years come upon them, when they would have to
meet the evil even in a worse form than that in which it
at present existed.
Lord MONTEAGLE said he had for a long time mi-
nutely considered the subject of transportation, and all
the information he could collect on the subject, from
personal observation and otherwise, convinced him that
it was a punishment much dreaded, and therefore a most
salutary one. In Ireland he knew that it was even more
dreaded than the punishment of death itself. With res-
pect to the general question, he did not think that it had
been fairly deal; with, fcv ny Que cold WI that the

penal colonies received the greatest benefit from the
system of sending convicts to them from this country.
In proof of that, he need appeal to no other or no more
satisfactory evidence than that of Sir Richard Burke,
the late Governor of New South Wales, who said that
he was induced to set a high value on the employment
of convict labour in the formation of a new colony,
inasmuch as in New South Wales, by the aid of convict
labour, the industrious inhabitants had been enabled,
within a period of fifty years, to convert a wilderness
into a flourishing colony. And in regard to the moral
conduct of those convicts, he gave it as his opinion that
not only had transportation contributed to the good of
the colony, but had led to the moral improvement of the
convicts themselves in as great a degree, as far as his
observation had gone, as could have been effected in any
penitentiary in England or in Ireland. After what had
been said as to the abandonment of transportation by
the Government, he did not wonder that the inhabitants
of some of the colonies now stood out in condemnation
-of the system; and he could not but state that, unless
they placed the system on a new footing, it would be
impossible to carry it on. It was said there was no re-
luctance in the inhabitants of Western Australia to re-
ceive convicts, but that was doubtful. But supposing
there was no doubt about the matter, the colony could
not recive all the convicts which would be sent from
this country. But then they were told that Van
Diemen's Land would receive a large portion of them,
although he did not believe that with the facts they
had before them with respect to the feeling of that
colony, that the inhabitants would submit to have
it made the receptacle of the whole convict
population of this country. They had the example
of the Cape as an evidence of what a determined resist-
ance to the law could effect, and of that they would be
most apt to take advantage. Ho regretted that the opi-
nions of the inhabitants of the Cape had been yielded to,
as he believed it would be attended with most fatal re-
sults to the Government. If, however, they were deter-
mined on curtailing the number of convicts sent abroad,
they were bound to employ them in a proper manner in
this country, and to give them sufficient accommodation.
Now, what was the case in this respect so far as Ire-
land was eoncerned ? In the gaol of his own county,
there were, during last year, while cholera was making
its ravages over the land, from 100 to 200 prisoners dis-
tributed over 15 cells. In the Cork gaol, which contained
accommodation for 500, there were 1,549 prisoners con-
fined at one time ; in Galway gaol, which contained ac-
commodation for 112, there was confined at one time
1,075 ; and in the course of last year the mortality
in that gaol was 450. That was a gate of
things which ought not to exist; and while
the Noble Lord (Stanley) had said that to employ
those convicts on public works in this country would
not suffice, as those works would have an end, but in
these colonies there was an inexhaustible field in which
to employ the labour of their convicts, and he was,
therefore, against any diminution in the transportation
of convicts to them, conceiving the system to be for the
benefit of those colonies, as well as that of the convicts
themselves.

Earl GREY said, as regarded the Irish prisons, he
wished to state, that while he did not deny that there
was in some of these a deficiency of accommodation, iu
consequence of the great increase of convicts during the
past two years in that country; yet, in each year since
the present administration came into office, there had
been a larger number of convicts sent out of the country
than there had been during many years preceding. At
the same time the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had done
all that lay in his power to increase the means of
disposing of those convicts. An establishment
had been formed on Spike Island, where from
twelve to fourteen hundred convicts were stationed,
while there was also a p.,nitentiary established oh the
model of Pentonviile put into operation. In fact, more
could not have been done than had been done to meet
the large increase of the convicts which had taken place
lin that country. As to the general question, he had
listened to the debate which had taken place upon it
with much satisfection, as, considering the opposite
opinions held by those who bad taken part in it, he was
led to regard what had been stated as favourable to the
system which Government had adopted. Two Noble
Lord., who had taken part in the debate, had objected to
transportation altogether, while the Noble Lord who
had last spoken was for carrying it out to the fullest
extent. He was not prepared to deny but that some
evils had arisen by sending convicts in large numbers
to the penal colonies, but still those evils had Lent
greatly exaggerated, and if they compared them with
those which would have existed under a different
mode of secondary punishment, he did not doubt
but that the balance would have been in favour of trans-
portation. He had the example of other countries,
France, for instance, as to the evils which were likely
to arise from keeping a large number of convicts in this
country; and when he stated that there were at the pre-
sent time 48,000 individuals in the Australian colonies,
of which the great majority were honestly earning their
livelihood, who had been sent out there as convicts, but
who, had they remained in this country, would he be-
lievej, almost in spite of themselves, have been compelled
to live as:criminals. No better argument could be advanced
in favour of sending convicts to such places. The fact
was, that South Australia never could have risen as it
had done had it not been for the convicts sent to it.
Triin,portation, then, ought not to be abandoned, but he
believed that the most penal part of the sentence of trans-
portation ought to be inflicted at home. It was admitted
on all hands, that there were means for carrying out that
portion cf the sentence at home which there was not in
the colonies. It was true some Noble Lords had con-
tended that the works at home on which convicts were
employed would cease in the course of a few years, one
Noble Lord having urged, that as the Portland works
would soon terminate, some other mode of employment
for the convict:: there engaged ought to be sought after,
but the great bulk of the buildings of Portland being
ail wood, could be removed, if necessary, while the
quarries at Portland being almost inexhaustible, and
composed of an excellent quality of stone, which one of
the cathedrals of that city could exhibit, the convicts
c3uld be employed there in raising those stones, which
were in great repute for buildings throughout the king-
dom. The Noble Lord who last addressed the House
had recommended the employment of those convicts on
large works in the colonies; but after the frightful
scenes which had taken place in New South Wales and
Van Diemen's Land, from the employment of convicts
in gangs on public roads or other public works, he
would decidedly deprecate having recourse again to
any such expedient. The system had led to scenes of
demoralisation the most abandoned, and he believed
that unless on a small scale, and in limited
numbers, they could not be so employed, if sent out
there at once. Much might be done afterwards when
they had passed through the ordeal of home training, and
when they could be sent out on tickets of leave to live in
particular districts of the colony, and be employed in the
formation of roads and other improvements, then much
good might be effected by them, and Government was at
present considering a plan how they could be best lo-
cated to effect that object. There were no doubt great
difficulties in the way, but he had no hesitation in saying
that those difficulties would soon be diminished, as he
was certain that in a few years there would be a larger
field for the disposal of their convicts in the colonies than
there was at present. The Noble Lord alluded also in
favourable terms to the plan of having a separate colony
in North Australia, consisting entirely of convicts. Now
he (Earl Grey) dissented entirely from that, because it
would be a colonisation exclusively of convicts; whereas
the safety of a colony depended on mixing those per-
sons, after some time, with free settlers. The object of
that was, that it should be a colony of convicts removed
from Van Diemen's Land and settled in North Aus-
tralia.

Lord STANLEY observed that they were to hold
tickets of leave.

Earl GREY believed that that circumstance made
no difference whatever, fur they should start with con-
victs only; there were to be no free settlers, no capi-
talists to give them employment; they were to be main-
tained at the first
onset at the expense of the British
Treasury; and if it were necessary to have recourse to
such expenditure, why remove them at all? He had no
objection to leave them to find their own way from Van
Diemen's Land with tickets of leave, and obtain em-
ployment in the adjacent colonies, but he did object to
any system which set out by planting any colony exclu-
sively with such persons. It had beau said that they
could not dispose of their convict population under the
arrangements now in course of progress; but the mis-
chief formerly was, that they sent out those persons too
rapidly, and did not take proper measures to prevent
those frightful evils which afterwards followed.
In the first place, by the old system, the territorial reve-
nue of the colony was taken away, leaving no means
of employing convicts on useful or profitable public
works. These regulations were now altered. N o
charge was, in the first place, made for convict
labour 'employment on useful works beyond the
charge of their mere superintendence; the consequence
of which was, that Sir W. Denison was at that moment
constructing bridges, making public roads, and other
public improvements in Van Diemen's Land, and a fund
kept up at the same time to defray the expenses which
fell on them. He (Earl Grey) for one, regarded all the
sums of money received for the sale of land, not as
revenue for the ordinary expenses of a colony, but
money which ought to be expended in public improve-
ments, and that land ought not to be given as a free
gift, but exposed for sale, lest it should fall into the
hands of men who would not turn it to the best account.
If land were given for nothing it would no doubt fall
into the hands of those who could not use it properly.—
(Rear. hear.) At the conclusion of tho late war, grants
of land were given in New South Wales to settlers, on
condition of. their taking and employing a certain num-
ber of convicts. That system was carried out under
Lord Bathurst with the most complete success, and the
regulations now about to be proposed would be, as
far as circumstances permitted, of a similar
character. Then, with regard to Western Australia,
it was no doubt a small colony, but one possessed of
great natural advantages, haying abundance of timber,
cotton, cattle, and a great variety of food, and when con-
vict labour was employed on roads, in the erection of
bridges, and other public improvements, he firmly be-
lieved Western Australia would afford a gradually
oin-
creasing field to convicts. Ho (Earl Grey) was averse
to large
ym
establishments
ih
gt
beconducted
ondi
fpi.eentae d
withadvantage,n
penal convicts;
he ed,
limitedh ever'
scale,e having public works carried on with
the aid of convicts with tickets of leave. Dispatches
had been laid on their Lordships' table, that evening,
from Van Diemen's land, showing that the colony was
rising rapidly—that industry was. finding employment
in every department—that ship building was being car-
ried. on to a large extent
—and also a trade of great im-
portance in the export of timber—steamers
L were con-
stantly running from Van Diemen's and to the ad-
joining colonies, in which men who obtained a con-
ditional pardon could go in search of employment, and
.that also was an inducement for men who possessed
tickets of leave to obtain tickets of pardon. With regard
to the resistance which may be expected in Van Die-
-14001 Land, he ,(Earl Grey) regretted extremely that

his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) said so much as an
encouragement to such an opposition. Ile, however, did
not anticipate any such thing; this objection to the re-
ception of convicts was now much less than in 1846, and it
was a most unfounded assertion to make, that the Go-
vernment was in fault, in exciting that opposition by the
language which had been used. He himself believed that
the feeling among the colonists against the reception of
convicts arose from the system of road gangs which pre-
vailed, for before its introduction the feelings of the peo-
ple of Van Diemen's Land was in favour of their being
sent among them.
Lord STANLEY said that transportation to New
South Wales was put an end to before the system of
road gangs was introduced.
Earl GREY continued to observe that the plan of
having road gangs was no new thing, and it was from
the abuse of the system they felt they were justified in
opposing the reception of convicts altogether. He was,
however, bound to say, that Parliament would not be
justified to yield in such a matter hastily to the people
of Van Diemen's Land, on such a subject. It was not
with them as with the people of the Cape, which was at
all times a free colony, and into which, without the con-
sent of the inhabitants, it would be unjust to send a con-
vict population. It was, however, otherwise with Van
Diemen's Land ; many millions of money were ex-
pended in making it fit fir convicts, and the free settlers
had no right to complain now of its existence among
them. He, for one, believed the authority of the Crown
and of Parliament ought not to be set aside by those to
whom free institutions were given ; and although, cer-
tainly, it was the duty of the Government at home not
to send out any which might be injurious, they had a
right to expect, and to insist on, sending convicts there
and not to be driven to seek in another part of the world,
at a vast expense, another penal colony.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
CASE OF MR. C. NASH.

Earl GRANVILLE, who spoke in so low a tone as to
be utterly inaudible, after having exonerated Mr. C. Nash
from any intention of committing a fraud upon the
House by the course he pursued on a late occasion,
moved that he be called to the bar and reprimanded.
Mr. C. Nash then appeared, and after stating various
additional reasons in exculpation of his conduct, and as
a justification of the course he pursued,
Lord CAMPBELL, being seated on the Woolsack
and covered, said--Charles De Lacy Nash, the miscon-
duct by which you have incurred the displeasure of the
House is that of having made a return which you were
not required to make, and of having made it without the
authority of the railway company to which you professed
to be secretary. The House has hopes that you were
not actuated in this matter by any fraudulent or malicious
motives; but at the same time the House has had reason
to be greatly dissatisfied with your conduct, it being cal-
culAted to mislead the House, and to do injury to the
company of which you are considered to have been an
officer. The House has resolved that you be repri-
manded, and you are reprimanded accordingly, and dis-
charged.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, April 12.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at gour o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following Bills were read a second time and
passed :—Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway; London-
derry and Enniskillen Railway.
The Colonization Assurance Company Bill, as
amended, was considered and agreed to.
The Croydon and Reigate Turnpike Road Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed.