The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

SMALL DEBTS.

The Small Debts Bill was read a second time.
The Superior Courtt of Common Law Bill was also
read a second time.

HORSE-RACING PENALTIES' REPEAL BIL%
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY moved the second reading o'
this Bill. The Hon. Gentleman stated that; in perfect
ignorance of the law, penalties had been incurred by
various parties, amounting to no less than half a
million of money. He then proceeded to explaill
the state of the law, which was that a bet on any racer
in which a stake of money above 101. was involved, wai,
an illegal bet. These qui tam actions had been a°.
menced by informers for the express purpose of recd
vering the penalties incurred under an obsolete statute es
the 9th of Queen Anne, and another of 16th of Charles tu
I-Second. He was not himself connected with horse-racing:
though he had, long enough ago to render him no long!:
liable, won and lost as much as ten pounds at a time
a race. But though he had adopted the professionrt
the law, and might say that he had some experience,,Po,
was still in perfect ignorance that he was then
illegally. The object of the present Bill was two-fold ;hs
believed all the actions were brought under La
9th of Anne, and all the present Bill Prersc- -
to do was, to enact that these vexatious
tions, on payment of the costs to the parties brinEfe
them, should be stopped. The only other object t 7,
Bill was to assist in an investigation of the whole w
tiioo
relating to gambling, and provided that the operaeoct
of the old Act be suspended for a limited time, till the „xi
of the present session, as much of it at least as confeThss,
on the common informer the right of trying such acti° A
The present state of the law was very anomalous'. bet
bet on a race while it was pending was illegal; but,;;000,
on a race after it had been decided, between tWebPe'bet•
as to which horse had won it, had been held to be a legalra
Under the present law the most indecent bets the
legal. A most famous instance of this occurred Incod-
year 1771, between two young men, the one nanleGlA
the
rington, the son of Sir William Codrington, it
other named Bigot. They ran their fathers' liveswhich
were against each other, and they made a bet to te„ry as
would die first. The bet was referred to Lord Oss- they
to what the odds should be, and he thought and
ought to be 1,6001. to 500/. The bet was made'! too
afterwards Mr. Codrington thought the terms W.,i.er dis'
much in favour of Mr. Pigot. It was afterWarl'A '0,3 at
covered that Mr. Bigot's father was actually' "esitaer
the time the bet was made, although lit lost
party knew it ; and acccordingly Mr. Pig°. was
the bet, but he disputed it, and the cas'
tried before Lord Mansfield, who directed therarea
to find for the plaintiff, and the 500/. was rec?b,
Could they conceive a greater anomaly than
which allowed bets of so disgusting a descril3,ooo-
- did not allow a person to make bets on
ru,
racing without being subjected to all the chicanery The
attorney's clerk might think proper to adopt ; were
present actions had been commenced for the woral'
purpose of extortion, and not for any witb,.
purpose. The first Act which was Passe
reference to this subject was in the rehlj pre
Charles H., which Act was entitled an Act for t the'
vention of Fraudulent Betting. The next Act Noi' It
present one—namely, the Act of the 9th of Anneei c in
was remarkable that this Sovereign indulged lagre'she
the sports of the field; and only two daYs
. This
died one of her own horses won the cup at Yor'ile tair
Bill was brought in in the year 1711, for the
pose of imposing fresh penalties for excessive 60-st ja-
It was evident that the clause in the Bill was atoll
, tended to apply to horse-racing, for there was extend
in the Act declaring that it was not intended to voice•
c
to games played within the precincts of the -I- old
Now, he could not well understand how ra- False'
take place in the drawing-room of the , for the.
In the reign of George 11. two Acts were passeu__acted
encouragement of horse-racing, one of which enacted
that races should not be run for any tnitat•onnetif
50/. After these Acts had passed, the constrisages,
relied on had been given to . the law by the faitire.
but that was in a civil case, and the House
,11!..rseat, iu
that the constraint placed upon an Act of P.riii'would bed,
a civil case, was very different from that which t can
placed on it in a criminal proceeding. That then de.'
been decided in the year 1744 ; and it w"nclucled
in
ternined by the judges that horse-racing was ;iatsoever•ci
the clause,which mentioned " all othergarnesw a_t_tehtnorrtsee.:
The penal clauses of the statute had never beg
to be enforced against persons making h t that
races. For one hundred and thirty-three Yvy,ersons
clause had remained unnoticed and forgotten;
that the,
had broken the law without any knowledgo:_ift whorl
were doing anything illegal. The persons aCu'unaws
these actions had been brought were quire believe!,,
that they were doing anything illegal-1,111;e of Prittetr
that if any Hon. Gentleman would take ,
wood
should
liament and read it, and nothing else, be
Act , a
say that it was intended that the Droc
apply to horse-racing. He should ne'll'ex;ticli9.?.
to show that the actions had been ?An
brought. Who were the parties bringilelghe"ci ;on
attorney and an attorney's clerk. -11
of th" tf the Exchequer-office for the purpose
whom these actions had been brought. Allßsell,
cept one had been brought by Charles
tiler action
the ° roc,'
James Russell was the attory ; and in
the 800
James Russell was both then nformer and
of die 113°to
He held in his hand five writs against one
_stinting
se
honourable men in this country, for sums a4°'"
the 11°110
of artaining
_PI);
nearly 80,0001. The members of the bar
ept
v _
were aware, were incapable of action
en whop'
the intervention of an attorney,
and themselves the greatest confidence._Ted olgu,
But this attorney went to a distinct is" t
duorePrese°i
one of the ablest men in his rofessiont
eO,
himself by name as the attorney in one ot-s I,l_efornea and
and by this means he got the opinion ofhl2Jeeciefeada
esteemed Friend, and stole a marl? upon /Wed Wi"'.
The principle upon which this Bill was '"

e, be
.7tieg

°sect
sc."

ie- '

friar to the Legislature. Parliament had, for some
tears Past,shown a disposition to alter the law, so far as
have any remedy to a common informer. As far
as 1806, informers had been deprived of power to
hilg an action in the Excise department. There was
itt,eonstitutional authority to show that this was no
'"coon of justice. In 1814 a Bill was brought in to
tllalt certain actions brought against certain members of
e clergy. On that occasion Lord Eldon sail, "It
he certainly a delicate proceeding, but it had
made the practice in all times; when an informer
these against whom he was proceeding." He ap-
Znended that the case before the House must rest
a"., on the moral culpabilities of those who were
ti, but on the vexatious nature of the actions. He
441. ascertained that actions had been commenced
thetwenty-one parties, and that the penalties
th:aated to nearly half a million of money. One of
parties was the Earl of Eglintoun, another Mr.
t"hreereetorex, a third Lord George Bentinck, who was
011 to answer for himself, and did not at
Anl2Pear ashamed of his position.—(Laughter.)
g,t, those gentlemen was one who had formerly
Gebeen a Member of that House, and for whom Hon.
re,,tlenien on the other side had, no doubt, a very great
he-Net—he meant Mr. John Gully, the late Mem-
‘,er for Pontefract. Some Honourable Members
ettiirpe,' no doubt, aware of the practice that was
the" hedgirkg," which meant betting both ways, and
15;talischief of these actions was, that, if a man bet and
penl°°/•, and by a counter bet recovered 991., • the
tai
""tees were fixed not upon the IL that had been ac-
thellY lost, but upon the 1001. which had been lost in
lan first instance, and hence the enormous
tiee°l2ts for which the action for these penal-
to tk"as brought. One of the grounds of opposition
ftt "e Bill was that it was said there would be no inter-
(4/ace if the parties interested were not rich men.—
ear, her " from Mr. Hume.) The Hon. Member for
lasbury said hear.
Hear,
DUNCOMBE—I am not talking to you.
(rl', 'T. S. WORTLEY—Somebody then spoke, and
Itor,,Lr• Wortley) now asked the Hon; Gentleman for
the-;"rose (Mr. Hume) would Mr. Russell bring
11, "e actions against a poor man ? What -would
L,n get by it ?—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial'
pasted)zielehe• The parties who brought these actions
the rich,. because it best suited their
rPose so to do. This he trusted would be
h'risidered as an answer to that objection. He
h:Ped that the House would agree to the Bill ; and
th would not have ventured to introduce it, but that he
taclaght it was important not merely to the individuals,
itto the public.—(Hear, hear.)
the lit• 11.. GIBSON said that there was no necessity for
I:4tt 211. Gentleman to apologise for the time which
i' occupied in bringing forward his motion. The.
pept,"lved considerations of the most important kind
telh-"aPs, as the Hon. Gentleman had said, important
Wheen individuals, but certainly important to the public.
Aott the Hon. Gentleman proposed to enact an ex
44tiJacto law, to relieve those who hail violated the law,
vel,vto withdraw, protection from those who obeyed it, a
bee'a satisfactory explanation of his reasons must have
the „"Peeted and required. In proposing to the House
it a;alendment which he (Mr. Gibson) had risen to move,
IL,'" necessary for him to state, that he thought the
l'h;thad nothing to do with the character of the parties.
Nirruse ought to dismiss the question of character
thia:l from its consideration—they ought to have no-
Rte. whatever to do with considerations of character or
ai44in such a matter as this. To allow such con-
NZAU to influence them was to legislate, not on
tees and for principles, but from personal motives,
had*lmst personal ends. The Hon. Gentleman
at% introduced the Bill had, in fact, given the
Pers reason possible why he (Mr. Gibson) should
the rere in his amendment.—(Hear,) He said
leireitaw affecting these subjects was so bad, that it m-
e „,' revision altogether. He did not, however, tell
4t.g,what might be the effect of looking carefully and
tarn kingly into the effects of these laws. It ;might
Boas out, after inquiry by a Committee of the
pia.e, that the Legislature might still maintain the
1,()A that this very position of -the law it would
the case,- to maintain. And should this be
tilev-sse, as very likely it might be, they would, if
viu[v. Consented to this Bill, be saving, those who
kit teed the law by a sort of parenthesis. The House
aoiv Lreport it to be desirable that certain penalties
e (Vaebed to acts of gaming should still be retained.
leZr• Gibson) had heard that people on the other
and robe very fond of trying 'to make the nation moral
1-4;:"gious by Act of Parliament--(Loud cries of
hear")--and he, therefore would not, if he
'Sllse„,u,elP it, allow great men, and rich men, and
„,, l‘itlei; '"al men, to escape the infliction of laws
, they had made for other people.—(Cheers.)
qs:Z„tnight ask them to suspend the actions, but not to
peud'tinue the law ; but the actions were not to be sus-
edd, they-were to be put an end to altogether. Now
in 4 not believe there was so much ignorance prevail-
%Atli:A) the existing law respecting gaming as the Hon.
4 ter nmall seemed to think ; on the contrary, scarcely
'ilese— Passed in which actions were not brought under
fises of Charles and Anne.
r.WORTLEY—There has not been a single action.
GIBBON—Wait till you have heard the other side.
brou,l,W, for
has not been any action
• cr. =or horse-racing.
dtsitivc GIBBON--Really they could not sit there to
atithidistinetions of this kind. The Acts were levelled
seLtili47't wiling in general, and not against any parti-
ae ti,,,,aP°rt. But that it would' be occupying
`tattit--"e of the House, he would move'. that this
The 2, be read by the clerk'- the table.
sire of of Charles was to prevent deceitful and exces-
ettur,r,,,,nli2. There were certain, pastimes and games
kaki ;rate in that Act, and amongst those games and
tionisfnes horse-racing was named. There could be no
hb,,,‘ that that Act, which was meant ;to apply to
tot
th7;ieng, applied also to horse-racing, He though that
p„_,. who supported this Bill in the other House of
8111 at m
must have been= when they called this
pinreesent before the House a
tho:ltetts2
ev.pastime Bill." This was an absurd ground "manly • sport and ar
fight R. Prelates to take for supporting the
r`lt'him _ in mind of the lines
Great men may jest with saints, 'tia witin then], •
....{gut with the less foul profanation."
Kean,l44 hear.) Qui tam actions it was well known
th,„ n often brought before for small penalties, yet
liof,_never before heard of a gentleman going to that
The"l7, and asking for a Bill of Indemnity.—(Hear, hear.)
14 17, had been numerous cases in which qui tam actions
asta,„eell brought of late years. In 1816, a person
Rill had been prosecuted; in 1827, a person named
pe:n had brought a qui tam action for gambling against
It son 6 named Taylor. That case was a remakable one.
411aq' attracted the general attention of the country.
err,,been brought before the House of Lords by writ
.rlde,,-r, Yet no one had thought of introducing a Bill of
--nity • If
gisi the law was not what it ought to be, the
The stare had no one to thank for it bust themselves.
the Yhad invited informers to take upon themselves
uses cd, 'nal and the expense of prosecuting those
ef and. they had a right to complain if the
tsar re attempted to deprive them of those vested
ill poiryleollf had_ bestowed upon them. It had been
of °role the Legislature which had *held out to the
iseilftioaa.r the advantages which had given rise to these
ortger as it justice now to interfere to deprive the
not of his vested interest ?—(Hear, hear.) Would
the Detend to lower the character of the Legislature with
frie pie.?
nds Would it not be said that all those who had
lsw high stations could suspend the operation of
ia%e th"eollId have Bills of Indemnity introduced to re-
nearrept from the liability to penalties which they had
L 414%. ;in the year 1842 qui tam actions had been brought
17rned-Vrovisions of this very clause against a person
thosrnd—actions of a precisely similar character
bt.t4 bee,. linw under discussion.—(Cheers.) The law
rte, allowed to take its course. The plaintiff
khere ,!_vered the full amount •of the penalties.
otirtted "as no insinuation _ that Bond had per.
OM% unfair play, but merely that he had
the
did con this particular
sotstatue.—(Hear, hear.)
-par
sider that Bond was much to blame as
Vs'e was" who supported his establishment.—(Cheers.)
;67 de not so much to blame for the supplying
st4d 41:11da of those who were supposed to be
tlttiat elevated situations for the purpose of
ti7rnselvall; example to the people, as those parties
141,;93.iii of He felt bound to oppose the passing
passed
147, ging thelndemnity un/11. he had a resolution pass_
lit relit. nollse to appoint a Committee to revise the
kh,enlber ~1,1313 to gambling. The pledge of a single
'``' a was not sufficient. They had got them now
thPecorner
out , and it would not be right to let them
entaksetve of their difficulty, until they had pledged
e, 14,4 to revise the law generally. He, there-
the Propoa„,Press the resolution which he intended
as an amendment to the motion of
11,444.wozduttiand Learned Gentleman to a division.
Itne journalke the liberty of quoting from a Conserve-
an article on the prosecution of Bond. The
theresulte then read an extract from the Times of
Wilicit Dec."ec. 8, 1842, expressing the satisfac-
conductors of that journal felt at
Nit the 'f the prosecution of Bonfl, and stating
lteit„..'u,nntry was not indebted to the Attorney and
lzn_e soe'Vie_nerals, nor to the Home Secretary, nor to
trationt`..Y for the Prosecution of Vice, for that pro-
.til'ee.C„pinut7iiall those authorities seemed to consider that
111,11. jariadiai? atmosphere of St. James's was out of
etion.
ma -line of , Luey were indebted for it to an artist of
mwiat.hs , and to an Act of the good old
)3:14 the sreen ta Anne.—(Loud cheers.) That showed
to
perfectly well known. Bond had
ilerotiity tend forced to leave the country. No Bill of
ata4 Passed ad been brought in for him ; no statute had
itt 131,1. t to theta prevent the rich from setting a bad ex-
traiq'gh lira Poor. Judge Blackstone said that gaming
atthiea ; it
Wdemanded the attention of the magis-
ratiott wased
sacrificsioed, and which we seemed to have
ilaciu tits delsreurtit our ancestors, the Germans, whom
w_s_l4
oued as bewildered with the spirit of play.
thzioell,„-Meroabtei rs
eotae forwl)l9osite had proposed stringent Acts for
t public morals, and they could not
ard to protect those who had violated
0. statutes.
to '7 cora r' hear.) The Hon. Member said it was
• re ire mon thin
In Ire from g to come down to the House
„Renalties parties who had violated exist-
tem. atisen.in wlc. was quite aware that- circumstances
vhotterfee; 'ell it was desirable for the Legislature
ne.tual duties, tiletlsbere.etargyrded the case of Mr. Wright, Presecuted
for not attending to their
0! e had believed a more objectionable interfe-
viLtahat oettnocdeurred. The present Lord Chancellor
Lnittitetcelrtohne common informer. He
dusted to tke
decides th:f
public principles. They
whether it
714 the utruZ 8 ease
question simply upon the grounds
oin wfhadiehoptthine Leexgisslatftuarcetsho ieogia.lsd..
al course
takhreillinfev had
e:restlinbmefuorset pledge
.thems.gelves to revise the
..-.F.ead given n t ley disco
nAtmllutehde
ythoseproposed act i ownasa.
oletettltwups.,_itisos.swit
_Powerful pledge. All
from the operatic*
aneveonbsa ofleewte
dlaayws.
aglothad
, aild

Lord Chief Justice Denman had pronounced a judgment
under it not a week past. Penalties from Bond had been
recovered under it not long since. It was impossible to
maintain the plea that had been urged of ignorance of
these laws. They were suspected of not wishing to re-
peal obsolete statutes. How often had magistrates under
obsolete statutes fined and imprisoned poor men, and
yet no one heard of giving the aggrieved party any in-
demnity, or of repealing the statutes under which they
were punished ? He would read for them extracts from the
Reports of the Inspectors of Prisons.—(Cries of " Oh,
oh. 1') A man, J. C., stated that he had been sentenced
to pay a fine of one shilling, and 14s. costs, and because
he was unable to pay these sums, he had been in prison
for ten years.—(Hear, hear.) He had been summarily
convicted before two magistrates for not attending
Church on Sundays, and for not showing any reasonable
cause for being absent. He was kept in prison until the
fine was paid. Was there any leniency shown there—
any Bill of Indemnity ? This law was admitted to be an
antiquated law, but the man suffered.—(Hear, hear.)
What had the Legislature done to abolish or modify
those cruel laws ? Had they shown any disposition to
bring in a Bill on the subject ? In 1839, it appeared
from the same Report that several persons underwent
imprisonment for trifling violations of the ecclesiastical
law. One underwent 63 days' imprisonment, another
61, a third 16, a fourth 12, a fifth 17, a sixth 12, a
seventh 26, an eighth 16, a ninth 27, and a tenth three
days' imprisonment—(Hear, hear)—and when those
people were released they were released on the payment
of the fine and costs. The people believed that that
House did not legislate ,for them, bat for themselves.
They believed that those laws on horse-racing would
not have been altered but that certain Hon. Members
and Noble Lords were not interested in their continu-
ance. They were not altered for the general welfare of
the community—they were obsolete and antiquated laws,
and were something similar to those on which the late
State prosecutions in Ireland were founded.—
(Oh, oh.) No, the great bulk of the people, he
repeated, were not aware that in attending those
meetings they had been guilty of any offence,
against the laws. The people of Ireland saw men high
in station, legislators, ministers, contributing to public
associations, and participating in public demonstrations.
—(Hear, hear.) Why did not the Government prose-
cute the Anti-Corn-law League? They dared not
prosecute the League.—(Hear, hear.) They used these
antiquated statutes and unknown laws to serve their
own purposes, and they had shown no disposition to
administer justice without respect of persons.—(Hear,
hear.) He would force his motion, and-he would see
whether gentlemen opposite were prepared to take away
the penalties upon all gambling—whether of the poor
or the rich, or only upon those kinds of gambling
in which their own class was concerned —(Hear. hear.)
It would be wrong to deny that much had been done to
repeal obnoxious statutes ; and especially in the laws
relating to excise and customs, through the industry and
sagaeity of Mr. Deacon Hume, hundreds of Acts of
Parliament had been compressed into one small volume.
But when the gentlemen opposite repealed the Acts
inflicting the penalties for offences against the excise
and custom laws, they did not suspend the qui tam
actions. The actions were persevered in, and the penal-
ties were enforced. He was bound to pay this tribute
to a distinguished public servant, Mr. Hume, not only for
his writings on political economy, but for the activity
with which he discharged the duties which had been
officially entrusted to him.—(Hear, hear.) He would
not allow this to be treated as an unimportant question.
(Hear, hear.) Many of the gentlemen who had intro-
duced him into that House were deeply concerned in the
gambling of the turf, but there were also many other of
his constituents who thought that all kinds of betting
were immoral, and ought to be put down. He
was, therefore, placed in a difficult position ;
but he would take the course which he con-
sidered to be right, without considering what
might please any section of' his constituents. For many
of these gentlemen he had a great respect, but if they
were his own brothers, he would stand up in that House
and resist any proposition for an ex post facto law to re-
lieve people of rank from the consequences of their trans-
gressions. —(Laughter.) He thought he should neglect
his duty if he did not stand up and see that they legis-
lated equally for all classes of her Majesty's subjects.
Before he sat down, he would make an appeal to the
Government, for he presumed that this was a Cabinet
question. -It had received the consideration of her Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and was sanctioned by them in
the House of Lords—at least, none of them
opposed it—and he thought he was entitled
in a matter of such importance as the interference with
proceedings in the courts of law, to have the deliberate
opinion, not only of the Prime Minister, if he were in his
place, but of the law-officers of the Crown. He thought
he was entitled especially to have the opinion of the At-
torney-General as to what he thought was the justice of
the case, when so many others had paid penalties for
similar transgressions of the law. He conceived that
they were entitled to the deliberate opinion of her Ma-
jesty's Government, whether they approved of a measure
like this, which permitted an ex post facto law to ride
over the ancient enactments of our code. He said that
those who were occupying the benches opposite, and to
whom attached the responsibility , of administering the
laws of. the country, were bound to say whether they
were in favour or not of this sudden and partial altera-
tion of the law.—(Cries of "Hear, hear," and " Oh.") For
it would not do for them to let this measure pass quietly,
and then pretend to the country that they were not in
favour of gaming—they must not set up that character
without any notice being taken of this measure, by them.
He deeply regretted that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
B. Peel) was not present on that most important occa-
sion.—(Laughter on the Ministerial benches, answered
by cheers from the Opposition.) Yes, it was on an oc-
casion like the present that they wanted the assistance
of a man like him, who had great experience, to guide
them in all their proceedings, and who had also
influence enough with his party to make them
do that which he might think the most
_proper
and just. He said that in not being present on that
occasion the Right Hon. Baronet was neglecting his
duty.—(Laughter from the Treasury benches.) Why
he guided his party ; they all, of them opposite followed
him in the most docile manner.—(Great cheering and
uproar.) He could make them pass this law, or throw
it out, by his individual dictum.—(Great cheering from
the Opposition.) When, therefore, the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet chose to assume such an immense responsibility as
he did in guiding the party which had to make the laws
for the country, surely to allow it to be sup-
posed that he shrank from his duty from an
aversion to offend the prejudices of his friends, was not
exactly commendable conduct.—(Hear, hear.) He re-
gretted also to observe the absence upon this occasion
of all those Hon. Members who arrogated to themselves
the guardianship of the morals and religion of the
country.—(Cheers.). He did not choose to impute in-
tentions, but he could not refrain from saying, that it
was a remarkable coincidence that upon a question so
important to the morals of the country there should
not be present in the House any of those Ho-
nourable Members who, when the poor were to
be schooled, when they were to be legislated into
all sorts of virtuous and pious habits, were most promi-
nent in that labour.—(Cheers.) Those remarkable coin-
cidences certainly happened to all men—they had hap-
pened to himself sometimes.—KA laugh.) In conclusion
he begged to say, that in his. opinion the House ought
not to have been called upon to consider a Manly Sports
Bill, and the liabilities any indulgence in betting on those
sports subjected individuals to; nor the question whether
they ought to protect those who had violated the law to
the injury of those who had not. If the attention of the
House was to be called to the subject at all, it
ought to be to the whole subject—with reference
to the future, and not to the past. And therefore, enter-
taining strongly these opinions, he felt called upon to
move, as an amendment to the motion, " That this House
is of opinion, that if Parliament think fit to interfere for
the purpose .of staying legal proceedings which have
been commenced under the sanction and authority of
existing statutes, upon the ground that such statutes
have become either obsolete, or that they ought not to
be enforced, it is incumbent upon the Legislature to
define some rule by which her Majesty's subjects may
be able to ascertain those laws which are considered to
have become obselete, or those to which obedience will
not be required. That a Select Committee be appointed,
to inquire into the existing statutes against gaming of
every kind, and what penalties are enacted by such sta-
tutes, and whether the same, or any and what parts of
such statutes have fallen into desuetude, or ought to be
repealed."
Lord J. MANNERS said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had not only been the advocate of one
side in this particular question, but had also been the
advocate of one Hon. Member who was not present to
speak for himself. The Hon. Gentleman said that he
had no guarantee that the House, if it consented to this
Bill, would not still sanction the imposition of penalties
on gambling ; thus, persons might hereafter be prose-
cuted for offences under. the Act, while persons who had
already offended could be relieved from the conse-
quences of their illegal acts. But it must be recollected
that these offences had been committed inadvertently.
l'he class of persons who were considered as tribunes of
the people did not deserve the confidence, of the people.
He wished all those distinctions which had been created
by obsolete statutes between the rich and the poor- ab-
rogated altogether. It should, however, be recollected,
that the public attention had been just directed to the
case of the person imprisoned for not attending church,
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract. The
law under which that person had suffered was the rem-
nant of a wise and consistent system of legislation—
(Hear)—which had been abrogated by the political an-
cestors of the Hon. Gentleman opposite.—(lronical
cheers.) It was partly a system by which, after
the poor people had attended the parish church, on the
Sunday, they were permitted to indulge in manly sports
and recreations during the rest of the day. The po-
litical ancestors of Hon. Gentlemen opposite had re-
tained the odious part of the law, imposing the penalty,
but had abrogated the cheerful part of it. He should
support the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Captain BERKELEY agreed with a great deal of
what had fallen from thelion. and Learned Gentleman
who introduced this Bill. But he wished the House
would pause before it attempted to legislate on this sub-
ject. The present system of horse-racing was fraught
with dishonesty and trickery. It was not the best horse
that always won. There was a system called PP betting
in existence which had been productive of the most mis-
chievous effects. He thought the better course for the
House to pursue would be to stay for a period the pend-
ing actions, and in the meantime to take the whole
subject of gambling into its consideration. If that course
were pursued he should be prepared to vote with the
Hon. Gentleman opposite, but sooner than lend himself
in any way to the continuance of the present dishonest
practices in horse-racing he would vote with the Hon.
Member behind him (Mr. Gibson). It was a very com-
mon saying that he who went upon the turf without a
determination to be a rogue was next akin to a fool.—
(Cheers and laughter.) If the rules of the House would'
permit him, he (Captain Berkeley) would move that this

debate be adjourned, in order that they might proceed
with the debate on Irish affairs.

Mr. M.MlLNESthought that Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site might agree to this Bill, which was one simply to
relieve parties from enormous penalties which they had
unwittingly incurred, and they could still have the Com-
mittee for which the Hon. Member for Manchester he.d
moved.
Mr. VERNON SMITH did not think a sufficient case

had been made out for the House of Commons to enter-

tain this question. He did not think that the allegations
in the preamble of the Bill had been made out. He
thought the proper course the Hon. Gentleman opposite
ought to have pursued, would have been to have moved
for the production of the Report of the Select Commit-
tee appointed by the other House of Parliament, to in-
quire into the subject. He thought without this a suf
ficient case had not been made out in favour of those in
whose behalf this Bill had been introduced.

Colonel PEEL could say that he knew that many of
those persons conscientiously believei that, in making
bets upon horse-racifig, they were committing no offence.
They believed, and he understood that this belief was
borne out by the opinion of counsel, that bets made on
the turf were legal. He himself had not been served
with any notice of action (he had no doubt that he should
be), but if he were to be summoned to give evidence in
any the trials, as to what bets he had made, he ques-

tinned whether a judge would caution him that in giving
such evidence, he was making a case against himself.
He thought the preamble of the Bill had been fully borne
out, and he for one could say that he had always con-
scientiously believed that bets on the turf were legal.
Mr. HUME said that if the opinion of counsel had
been taken upon this matter, there was no necessity
for this Bill, inasmuch as from what had fallen from
the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that opinion
was in favour of the legality of the bets. He thought
the best plan in this case would be to suspend the
pending actions for three, months, in order that the
subject might be well considered. The present Bill
gave power to any person against whom actions for
penalties for gambling were brought, to call upon a
judge to dismiss the case with costs. He did not think
they were in a position to grant this. He thought they
ought to agree to the adjournment of the debate, as he
thought that on a subject of such importance the presence
of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Govern-
ment was absolutely necessary. This was a gambling
Bill, and indirectly promoted and protected gambling.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, that if the

Right Hon. Gentleman looked more closely to the
clauses of the Bill, that provision was expressly made
for the point to which he referred. The operation .of
the Act was not to extend beyond the space of three
months, and any proceedings at law would be stayed.
Mr. HUME—Yes, after the lapse of three months.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL--Just so. Although
by this Bill the pending cases would be discontinued,
there was nothing to prevent the actions being brought
afresh unless they were quashed by the Legislature.
When the Bill went into Committee the Hon. Gentleman
must move for the insertion of the word " suspend" in-
stead of "discontinue," which he apprehended would
answer all his purposes.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member
for Manchester talked about this Bill disregarding the
poor, and having reference only to the amusements of
the rich. He did not know what particular section of
the House the Hon. Member meant by " you," or whe-
ther he meant to allude to any particular Member. For
his own part, he (the Attorney-General) would say that
he had never been behindhand in evincing sympathy
for the poor, or in protecting their privileges. There
was no Hon. Member more ready or willing than he
was to abolish obsolete Acts, through which the people
might unwittingly have offended against the laws.
,He
hoped the Bill would be allowed to go into Committee.
After a few words from Mr. C. BERKELEY, the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it
Majority
On our admission to the Gallery, we found the House
discussing the propriety of going into Committee on the
Bill. That discussion having been concluded, the Bill
was ordered to be committed on Wednesday next.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to ask what was the

intention of the Government as to public business. Did
they intend that the important motion he had brought

for Ward should be proceeded with that night, or that
other business that had been put upon the paper, espe-
cially that of the Hon. Member for Montrose, should be

proceeded with in preference?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention of the
Government to give precedence to the adjourned debate
on the Irish question,—(Hear.)
IRELAND.—THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Lord LEVESON then rose to address the House.
He believed that in the speech of the. Noble Lord last
night those great principles were contained, on which
Ireland alone could be properly governed.:---(Hear, hear.)
He wished to see liberal principles infused into Ireland.
—(Hear)—for it was impossible to deny that the peaec
of Ireland had been kept up lately by military force.—
(Hear.) He hoped they would never continue the go-
vernment by such means.—(Hear, hear.) Had, he
would ask, the government of Ireland been conducted
properly ?—(Hear.) Why the first offices of the State
had been given to men whose principles and whose
politics were not congenial to the people of Ireland.—
What had been the case at the late trial ? Why, they
had been tried before four Protestant judges, by a jury
of twelve Orangemen.—(Hear.) Was it be wondered
at that the people of Ireland should feel some exaspera-
tion at this ?—(Cheers.) The Established Church' had
not prospered, in consequence, in his opinion, of the
protection it had received from the State. It did not do
its duty if it performed nothing for the education of the
people.--(Hear, hear.) He considered that many per-
sons thought too much of the protection of the State.
Whoever travelled through France, Belgium, and the
North of Germany, must perceive the difference which
existed between those countries and England, owing to
this exclusive protection. After trespassing so much
on the time of the House, he could not do better than
conclude with the words of one of the most eloquent
men who ever sat in this House. Mr. Brougham, now
Lord Brougham, cautioned the House to beware how
they converted discontent into rage ; how they encou-
raged discontent to' rage with new weapons. They
alone were responsible if, through their opposition,
Ireland was torn from the mother country.—(Cheers.)
Mr. B. COCHRANE said he had listened with the
greatest pleasure to the speech of the Noble Lord. The
evils which afflicted Ireland had been attributed to many
causes ; to the existence of the Church, the
union, the state of the suffrage, and ether sources, but,
in his opinion, none of them was the real evil. The real
evil they had to deal with, was the great physical misery
which existed in the country. The resources of the
country were great, yet the country was, fur 300
years, in a state of wretchedness and disaffection. With
regard to the Church it was universally known that the
Catholic clergy would refuse a provision from the State,
and at a late meeting of the Roman Catholics of Eng-
land, Lord Camoys, who. presided at that meeting, was
reported to have said that he entirely concurred
in the propriety of the decision come to by the
Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. They could do no-
thing then, in that direction, for the benefit of Ireland.
If the Noble Lord wished to appropriate a part of the
revenues of the Established Church, he did not knew
how it could be received by the Roman Catholics, after
their late declaration to refuse a State provision. He
was kindly disposed towards the people of Ireland, and
towards their religion. He was of opinion that a su-
perior class of persons ought to be educated for the Ro-
man Catholic Church in Ireland. The evil of the coun-
try was ;its misery, and when they considered the phy-
sical wants which the people of that country endured it
was not to be wondered at that they complained.—
(Hear, hear.) people in their situation could not

reason ; they could Only complain. He hoped, there•
fore, that some measure would be introduced to ame.
liorate the social condition of the people. The Hon
Gentleman then referred to the report of the Railroad
Commission to show the state of the country, and that
the greatest benefits would result if the waste lands were
reclaimed.—(Hear, hear.) Another great evil was the
absentee drain, and while it continued the people of Ire-
land would not cease to complain. It appeared to him that it
would be a great benefit if the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
was not changed with every change of the Ministry.
Such men as Lord Normanby and the Duke of Rutland
in former times, who were beloved by the people of
Ireland, ought to have been allowed to remain amongst
them. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the recent
trials. He thought this was not a time to indulge in
harsh tirades.—(Hear, hear.) A man who stood high
in the estimation of the people of Ireland had been just
convicted of a conspiracy against the State. He did not
pretend to say that Mr. O'Connell had not done some
good for his country—that at the commencement of his
career he might not have been influenced by high aspi-
rations, but that formed no excuse for his conduct at the
present time. Manlius, who saved the Roman State,
was afterwards punished for a conspiracy against it. He
trusted the people of Ireland would now take a different
view of the question, and that this conviction would be of
great service to the country. He would say, in the
words of a great judge, that it was not through wound-
ing the sides of the Constitution, not by trampling on
the laws of the country, that they could hope to obtain
the results they sought. It was not by such conduct
they could enlist the sympathies of others or
add to the number of their friends.—(Hear, hear.)
They should always feel with the people, and for the
people, and cheer them on with hopes of the future.
He quite agreed with the Noble Lord, the Member for
the City of London, that it would have been far better
if the proclamation had been issued earlier. He had
ventured in that House to suggest the adoption of coer-
cive measures. That observation was met by the keen
sarcasm of the Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland.
This was in the month of July, and when Parliament
broke up no one imagined what course her Majesty's
Government would take. The Right Hon. Gentleman
at the Head of the Home Department, said it was on
account of the meeting at Clontarf, with its outward
and visible signs, that the proclamation was even-
tually issued. There was nothing about this
in the indictment;-the charges in which were spread over
the space of nine months.—(Hear.) In charges of trea-
son and conspiracy there should be no room for doubt ;
the nature of the crime should be so clear that a child
might understand it. If meeting after meeting had been
held, and men did not know that what they were doing
was illegal, they might ask, in the words of Strafford,
" Where has this treason been so long concealed ?"
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord. (Lord or. Russell) said
they should legislate for Ireland, not only on just and
wise principles, but generously. He (Mr. B. Cochrane)
trusted that theywould legislate for Ireland in a generous
spirit; that their future victories would be victories over the
affections and sympathies of that noble and gallant-
hearted nation ; and that by constant and unremitting
consideration for their welfare, peace and happiness,
truth and justice, religion and charity, might be estab-
lished in Ireland.
Lord CLEMENTS had listened with much interest
to the speech of the Right Hon.Baromet (Sir J. Graham)