The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-02 00:00:00

PARK.

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Colonel SIBTIIORP wished to ask the Attorne
ofGrt x ye
the previously
had been cut down, and whether this act had been consti-
tutionally exercised in the grounds which have been for
so many years maintained out of the public purse, and
by successive votes of the House of Commons fir that
purpose; also, whether this power is limited, or to what
extent it may be carried, and for what special purposes
and if for what is termed a commission to afford accom-
modation for foreign markets, and the importation or
warehousing of foreign goods ?
The ATZORNEY-GENERAL said he must preface
his answer by reminding the House that the parks be-
longed to the Crown in fee, and that at each accession
they were transferred to the Woods and Forests for the
use of the public. He believed that the trees which had
been cut down bad been cut down by the direction of the
Woods and Forests, and he believed that so long as they
continued within their legal limits they had authority
to control all matters relating to the park. The
House would likewise remember that the powers of
the Commissioners were • limited by the 10th
of George, ,IV. Now, the Commissioners had a
perfect right, as tenants for the life of her
Majesty,. to cut down all ripe timber without
the consent of the Crown, and likewise to any
similar act that is calculated to ieaprove the property,
without any sanction from the Crown, but they cannot
fell timber that is not ripe without such sanction. With re-
spect to the power of the Commissioners to confer the right
of building, they had no power of conferring the right
to erect a permauent building, but they had the right of
granting permission to erect a temporary construction, as
was evidenced by the existence of the Royal Humane So-
cieties sheds in Hyde-park.
Mr. STUART—
Will the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman do me the favour to answer this question.
How does he propoee that the public should interfere?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said it was not for
him to suggest the mode.
Mr. THOMAS DUNCO MBE wished to ask the First
Lord of the Treasury when it is intended that the
national exhibition, 1851, should close; and whether, in
consequence of the increasing dissatisfaction on the part of
the puolic, that the proposed exhibition should take place in
Hyde-park, it would not be advisable that the selection
of Hydespsrk us the intended site should be recon-
sidered by the Commission; also, whether, in the event
of the amount raised or likely to be raised by voluntary
subscriptions proving inadequate to defray the ex-
penses of the exhibition, it is in the contemplation of
her Majesty's Ministers to ask Parliament, either this
year or next, f,r any grant of public money towards
such expenses.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, in reply to the first question,
that the lateit period at which the exhibition would be
opened bad been fixed at the 10th of November, 1851,
but it might be closed earlier, while it was provided
that within seven months after the closing the con-
tractors should remove all the materials that remained on
the ground. With regard to the second question, he
bogged to state that on Saeirday and to-Jay the Com-
missioners had hell two meetings, both of which were
very fully atter.Oed; Ind they had gone over the reasons
which had induced them to select Hyde•park as the
site of the exhibition, and the reasons which
iftorrmighotf to
areembodypo report,
a copy their
of reasons for so doing
w :Hove
had been urged against it. The Commissioners
adhered to their former resolution, but they had thought
ginothe
heehoulddn
for, and which he hoped wealdtper iu the bands of Hon.

Members to-morrow. With regard to the last
question, he bad to state that it was not
contemplated to make any public grant whatevsr.
The Commissicnen3 had always supposed that the sub-
:-.criptions and :he mon,w to be rt,ceived at the doors
would be more than sufficient to defray the expense of
the exhibition. lie now hegqed leave to move that a
espy of the Commisionem' repo-t In laid befora the
Holm.

The motion wee agreed to, and the returns ordered.
Lord JOHN MANNERS wished to kno7 from
the Attorney-General whether the trees in question
had Le:n cut down in Hyde-park before or after the
signing of the sign-manual by her Majesty?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL knew nothing of the
facts. Ile apprehended the sign-manual was given
merely for the purpose of showiez hereafter that there
should be no breach of trust of the Commissioners as
trustees of the public. He thought it would be perfectly
legal for the Canruissioners to cut down trees before the
issuin g of the sign-manual.
Sir 'HENRY WILLOUGHBY asked Lord John
Russell whether there exists in the Treasury, or in any
other department of the State, a power to erect, or to
consent to tie erection, of any buildings in Hyde park,
without the consent of Parliament.

Lard JOHN RUSSELL imlgined there was such a
power.

Sir B. HALL thought the question before the public
was one which was worthy the consideration of the
House, and he was ready to go into it immediately.
nulesa he h.d an assurance that an early day would
be set apart for its discussion. If the Noble Lord
would be good enough to set apart an early day for its dis-
cussion, he (S:.r B. Hall) should ho prepared to move en
address to her Mjesty. tbat she would he graciously
pleased not to allow the proposel exhibition to take
place in Ilydi--park.

. .
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the House would gene-
rally bo of opinion that it would be more to their ad-
vantage if they could discuss tho question with a full
knowledge of the facts. He had no objection to say he
would be ready to givo an early pay to allow the Hon.
Baronet (Sir B. Hall) to bin on his motion. He would
say either Thursilay or Monlay.
Mr. B. OS BORNE called the attention of the House
to the probable depreciation of the value of property in
the vicinity of Hyde-park if it be persisted in to huld the
exhibition there.

Mr. HOPE adverted to the depreciation of his own,
property in the vicinage of Hyde-park, in cane the exhi-
bition went on there, and drew an amusing picture of the
incidents connected with traffie which would take place
in removing the goods and implements for the exhibi-
tion from Ranelagh-wharf to Hyd-.-park, by way of
Grosvenor-place, occasionally diverging into Be!grave-
square, and perhaps into Cheshans-place itself.
Colonel SI3THORP complained of the delay which
had alread.y taken place, and of the procrastination
which the Noble Lord showed to :afford an explanation
of this matter. He contended that the parks were
public property, and there was no authority to destroy
them by a Commission like the present one. He con-
sidered that the Commission was nothing better than
ran attempt to encourage foreigners at the expense of
native industry. Ho asserted that all sorts means
head been usal to gain subscriptions to it, such as in-
timidation of tradesmen and the like.
Mr. REYNOLDS, as an Irish Member, would not
pre3ume to me Idle with this question, but that ho
thought he could get the House out of a diffi-
culty. For the information of Honourable Members
who had not had the advantage of visiting Dublin,
he would mention that her Majesty owned a park in
that city, called the Phoenix-park—(Great laughter)—
and, in the name of his fellow-citiz-ns, he begged leave
to offer that park, and the circle in it called the Fifteen
Acres, to his Royal Highness and the Noble Lords and
gentlemen associated with him in this undertaking.—
(a2newed laughter.) Tho citizens of Dublin, he
could assure the Gallant Colonel, would not
take the cutting down of a tree or two as a
grievance. They would not say to his Royal High-
ness, " Woodman, spare that tree"—(Laughter)—
but would be anxious to do all in their power to
facilitate the carrying out of that great object.
Dublin had another geographical advantage, for it was
expected that a large amount of the industry and in-
F,enuity of the -United States would be exhibited at the
exposition of 1851, and it should be recollected that
Galway was the text parish to the United States.—
(A laugh.) He hoped the suggestion Ye had made
would be taken into consideration by the Royal Com-
mission.

Mr. ALCOCK suggested that Battersea-fields would
be tho beat locality to select for the exhibition, being
bounded on one side by the Thames, and on the other
by the South-Western Raihay. He thought that
10.000/. or 20,0001. would be saved by erecting. the build-
ing in that situation.

Lord J. RUSSELL intimated that he would give a
final answer as to the site of the building on Thursday,
at five o'clock.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said one of these days they
would have some of the Commissioners coming down to
the [louse with a doleful face and au empty purse, say-
ing, Wo relied upo❑ the entranco fees; we are sorry to
say this exhibition has cost somewhere about
200,0001. or 300.0001., and we have only
got 100,000/. towards it. We have incurred
great liabilities fir this national undertaking, but of
course von will not allow us to pay them." Now the
result of that complaint would be a grant, but he put it to

the House whether it would not be better to come to
some understanding now upon the subject, and put a
stop to the begging system that was now going on, and
which was a disgrace to the country. Depend
upon it something would have to be voted,
perhaps in the shape of a police-rate, for
immense bodin of people could not be brought to-
,gelher without there being some increased force re-
roiref;, and he therefore called upon Government to deal
vtith the matter at once.

Mr. B. COCIPLA.NE slid it was a pity these sug-
gestions were not made months ago.
The subject thin dropped.
POST-OFFICE AND RAILWAYS.

Mr. RICARDO said in February last he moved for a
return of the moneys paid to railways for carrying the
pcst-bags, but still it had not been laid on the table yet.
He wished, therefore, to know when it would be forth-
coming?
Mr. HAYTER said the return was long and compli-
cated, but it would be produced as soon as possible.

LORD-LIEUTENANCY (IRELAND) BILL.
The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN asked whether
the Noble Lord at the head of the Government intended
to bring on the Abolition of the Office of Lord Lieute-
nant Bill to-night.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did not intend to
proceed with it to-night.
MR. W. S. O'BRIEN.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. ANSTEY rose to bring forward the molten of
which he gave n,tice, respecting the opening of Mr. W.
Smith O'Brien'S letters from Van Diemen's Land. He
said he felt a delicacy in, bringing under the considera-
tion of the House the case of Mr. W. S. O'Brien after
what had already taken place in respect to him. But he
knew that there was a strange feeling out of doors upon
the subject, and much dis3atisfletion was experienced re-
specting his treatment i❑ Van Diemen's Land. The
question he had brought before the Home was simply
this—was a person in this country entitled to receive
from a convict in a penal settlement in Van Diemen's
Land a letter that might be addressed to him in his offi-
cial cp pacity? He limited the qaestioa to that. He did
not put it on the barren ground of the privileges of Par-
liament. Mr. Smith O'Brien refused a ticket of leave,
and was transferred to Maria Island, where he consi •
dered he was treatel with great hardship, and thereupon
addressed a letter to him (Slr. Anstey) complaining of
his treatment. The letter was addressed to him in
the House of Commons. In cases of letters from
Van Diemen's Land, the bond and free were placed
on terms of equality, and it was alike illegal to detain
or open the letters of either. The case was different
from that of England, where letters might be opened by
the gaoler. It was absolutely necessary that there should
be unrestricted communication between convicts and
persons in this country, for if such were not permitted
the most horrible abuses might be committed with im-
punity, without the chance of exposure or of ameliora-
tion. There was the power of opening letters at the
Post-office, but it must be only upon oath. But to jus-
tify that there must be the oath that he (Mr. Anstoy)
was a suspected person. If such were the case he called

for inquiry. Nora, he found the letter was opened. by
the Lieutenant-Governor, Sir W. Denison, who fairly
admitted that he had opened it for the purpose of seeing
what complaints or misrepresentations Mr. S. O'Brien
might have made as to his treatment. Ho received the
letter subsequently at the Colonial-office, and he ad-
mitted that nothing could be more fair than the conduct
of the Colonial-office here. What he complained of was
the conduct of the Lieutenant-Governor. Such eom-
duct was neither politic nor honourable, even if it were
lawful. He hail resided in Van Diemen's Land himself,
and ho never knew an instance of a letter being
opened except upon information on oath. That had
been the practice since 1829. The Right Honour-
able Baronet the Member for Ripen (Sir James
Graham) might have pleaded as his excuse for open-
ing letters on one occasion at the Post-office,
that it was the general practice to open let-
ters here, as to say it was the practice so to do in Van
Diemen's Land. He concluded by moving for an in-
quiry into the circumstances under which a letter ad-
, dressed by Mr. W. S. O'Brien to a Member of the House,
complaining of his having been placed in solitary con-
finement by the present Lieutenant-Governor of Van
Diemen's Land, was intercepted and opened in that
co-
lony by the local authorities.
Mr. DICKSON seconded the motion. He pressed
strcngly for relaxation of the punishment inflicted upon
Mr. Smith O'Brien.
Upon the question being put,
Sir G. GREY said that he did not conceive that any
grounrls bad been laid for a Parliamentary inquiry in
this case. Ho could assure the Bon. Member that the
opening of the letter of Mr. S. O'Brien addressed to him
arose from no suspicion that he would countenance any-
thing improper, but it was the universal practice to
open all letters of convicts who had not tickets of leave,
and who were in that class in which Mr. Smith O'Brien
of his own free choice had thought proper to remain.
Mr. Smith O'Brien and his associates had forfeited their
lives. By the mercy of the Crown their lives had been
spared, and, under the circumstances, indulgences were
granted to them which were not granted to others.
Tickets of leave were granted to three of them. Mr.
Smith O'Brien refused a ticket of leave, and it was
by his own act only ho was now in that class whose
letters were opened; and, being in that class, ho sought
special exemption from it. They might deplore that
ore who had been a member of that House had placed
himself in the position that Mr. O'Brien wag now re-
duced to; but then it was not because he had been a
member of net House that he had a right to claim treat-
ment which would he different from that inflicted upon
him if he were a poor man, and had been convicted of
the same crime.—(Hear.) He (Sir G. Grey) hoped he

Ind sufficiently explained the circumstances under which

these letters had been oocned. He could assure the
Halve that they were opened without the slightest sus-
picion that anything improper had pas: el, and simply on
account of the position is which the convict was placed
by his own act, and which position naturally- led to the
enforcement of esrtain reguietions.
Mr. B. COCHRANE agreed with Sir G. Grey that
the law must be carried out, and that there was no rea-
son to show favour to one class of convicts in preference
to another. la his opinion the law should be executed
fairly and conscientiously, without regard to the posi-
tion in society which the person convicted of a crime
might fill.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY,. in supporting the motion, ex-
pressed a hope that an opportunity would occur when
her Majesty's Government might feel themselves justi-
fied in extending the Royal clemency to Mr. O'Brien,
an act which, he could assure them, would be most
grateful to the people of Ireland.
Mr. HUM E was of opinion that Government had done
as much as, under the circumstances, could have been
expected from them. At the same time he thought that
letters addressed by convicts to Members of Parliament
should be allowed to pass unopened.
The O'GOR \ION MALION.—The proposal of the
Hon. Member fur Youghal had originated in the circum-
stance that the real of a letter addressed to himself had
been violated by the governor. de (the O'Gorman Mahon)
Id not believe that the governor would have ventured to
open that letter if it had been addressed to the Lord
Chancellor, the Speaker of the House of Commons, or
any one of the law dignitaries of the country, and he
could not see, therefore, why he should be allowed to
open it when aeldressed to a private Member of Par-
liament. He protested against the doctrine laid
down by Mr. Cochrane, that there was no distinc-
tion between the case of Mr. Smith O'Brien and that
of any other convict. Mr. O'Brien's case was not
analogous to that of other convicts. It was true
that he had been subjected to condemnation after cer-
tain formularies had been gone through; but he (the
O'Gorman Mahon) would candidly tell the House that,
having been present at the trial at Clouser!, and having
come from France to volunteer his evidence in favour of
his Hon. Friend Mr. Smith O'Brien, he had watched
with attention the proceedings at the trial, and that if
the House would appoint a Committee, and he were ex-
seined before it, he would explain his reasons for the
declaration that he was by no means satisfied with the
course pursued at that trial, and the mode by which the
conviction of the Hon. Gentleman was obtained. It
was not his object, however, to rip that question up now;
be merely volunteered his evidence if the House would
appoint a Committee. He maintained that Mr. O'Brien
was vest in the same category as other convicts. True,
by the construction which was put upon the law he was
found guilty of treason; but let the House mark what
species of treason. It was treason unattended by the
shedding of one single drop of blood. To be sure a
child or au old woman was shot by accident; but there was
no collision, and no destruction of property; and
it was a notorious feet that but for his friend
William Smith O'Brien blood would have been shed,
lives would have been lost, and property would have
been destroyed to an enormous amount. He having
then, at the risk of his own life, prevented the spoliation
of property and put a stop to the nefarious projects of
others who sought to band themselv,s together, and
urged him on to deeds which his soul disdained, and he
himself having been the victim, would the Hon. Member
again assert that there was no distinction to be drawn
between the man who had thus acted, sacrificing him-
self that he might save others, and those convicts who
had been thrust out from civilized society as a curse, and
whose conduct justified the punishment they endured ?
—(Elear, home) It was with extreme gratitude that
he had listened to the observations which had dropped
from Sir G. Grey; and he trusted that when the ap-
propriate time arrived the Government would have the
satisfaction of advising her Majesty to an act of mercy
which would ensure to her an addition—if addition were
possible—to the attachment which already existed in the
Irish bosom, and to Ministers themselves a participation
in the gratitude of the nation.
Mr. MONSELL said that, in all the communications
he had had with the Government and the secretary for
the Colonies upon this subject, he felt himself boand to
state that they had shown every disposition in their
power to meet the reasonable suggestions which he had
taken the liberty to offer them. At the same time he
must say that he was not so convinced that the colonial
authorities had dealt with Mr. O'Brien in the same
spirit.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
a letter which had been received by a gentleman in
Clare from a person in Van Diemen's Land, which was
dated November 26th, and which stated that Mr. O'Brien
had arrived in the colony about three weeks before; that
having refused to accept his ticket of leave, he was
treated by the Government in every respect as one of
the worst convicts, except that he was not forced to
labour or wear the convict's dress ; that he was not al-
lowed to have intercourse with any one, and that he was
restricted to the same food as the other convicts, and

prevented from purchasing anything whatever. He (Mr.
Monsen) admitted that there might have been changes
made since that period.—(hear, Le Li.) But if his Right
Hon. Friend would take care that Mr. O'Brien should
not be subjected to such restrictions, it would give great
satisfaction to him (Mr. Monsen) and the other friends
of Mr. O'Brien.

Sir L. O'BRIEN said that, as some discredit had
been thrown upon the statement which ho had made on
a former occasion in that House, he bez,god to say that
what he then stated was perfectly the truth. Ills au-
thority was a letter which had been addressed by his
brother to Mr. Butt, Queen's Counsel; and any Hon.
Gentleman who desired to read that letter was quite
welcome to do so. He asked no more than that his
brother should be treated with consideration in the un-
fortunate position in whi h he was placed; to aO.-; for his
release would, ho knew, nude.: tho circumstances, be un-
reasonable.--(Hear, hear))
Me. HAWES could say, from his own knowledge of
what had taken piece, that the Gorernor of Van
Diemen's Land had been actuated only by one feeling,
and that was a sense of duty both to the Crown and to

the convicts.—(Hear, hear.) Since the letter which his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Mansell) referred to was written, there
had locea certain modifications in the regulations affect-
ing Mr. Smith O'Brien. With regard to his being con-
fined alon., that was the act of Mr. O'Brien himself,
because unless he had been subjected to contaminating
associations, ho must necessarily be confined in some
place by himself. With regard to his dietary and place
of confinement, in some degree favour had been shown
to him which was not shown to other convicts, and to
that extant the Governor might be open oven to some
censure.
After a few observations from Mr. Ewart, Mr. S.
Crawford, Colonel Dunne. and Colonel Thompson,
The House divided, and there appeared—
For Mr. Anstey's motion
Against it ..
Majority against the motion —23
SUPPLY.—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

... 45

The Houle haring gone into Committ?e of Supply,

.. . _
On the vote of 125,000/. for education in Great Britain
being propased,
Mr. EWART rose and moved, " That a statement be
made on the part of the Government, on going into edu-
cation estimates (as is done on going int) the estimates
for the army, navy, and ordnance), of the sums appro-
priated each year to the purposes of education; the at-
tribution of those sums; the relative increase of common
schools of all sorts receiving grants from Government;
the nucabEr and progress of schools of design; and of all
educational institutions (including public libraries, and
museums or galleries of art and science), for which
money is voted by Parliament." With respect to the
schools of design, it was an error to make the central
school a place of instruction for pupils ; it should
only be for the training of teachers. The instruction
of females, too, was a matter that should be more at-
tended to. As to the general condition of all public
educational establishments, especially the Museum, in its
various departments, the National Gallery, and the
Museum of Practical Geology, the public ought to know
what was going on in them—what additions were made
in these branches, and all other matters pertaining to
their progress, and all those might be embodied in an
explanatory statement of the Minister every year to the
House.

Sir G. GREY admitted the importance of the subject,
but considered it would be extremely difficult for any
Minister to make such a general statement as the Hon.
Gentleman required, and which would be analogous to a
general statement on the estimates of the army, navy,
and ordnance by one Minister, instead of having each of
those separate departments treated by the three separate
Ministers to whose functions they belonged. With re-
spect to the vote before the House he was ready to give
any information that was required, all the details con-
nected with which would be found in the minutes of the
Committee of Council on Education which were an-
nually presented to the House, and which were in a very
readable form, and not of the formidable dimensions
of blue books generally. With respect to the
schools of design the subject fell rather within the
department of the Presikeit of the Board of Trade,
who would aff nel all the requisite information on
the subject. With respect to the schools in connexion
with the Committee of Council, the various items of the
grants made from the Ist of January, 1848, to the 31st
of December, 1849, would be foiled given with detailed
accounts in the estimates, which were in the hands of
Members. It would be there seen that 627 schools, con-
taining no less than 97,307 pupils, had received grants,
and that the total sum awarded was 106,803/. The re-
sult had bean most satisfactory in enabling trustees to
build schools in proper places. The second item was
that of grants to the amount of 5,5441. for the fitting up
of 1,047 schools. The Right Hon. Baronet read some
other items from the estimates in the hands of Members,
and observed that a largo portion of the educational
grant made by Parliament had been applied to increas-
ing the standard of educ ition in the schools.
Mr. HUME suggested that, as in France, a statement
of the progress of public education should appear in
the newspapers. He considered that more ought to be
done than had yet been effected fn. promoting national
education, the deficiency of which was plainly indicated
by the official reports on the subject. He sug-
gested that the national schools should be furnished
with maps, having
statistical statements attached to
them, of the British empire, like the maps usedin the
Prussian schools.
SLANEY concurred in thinking that it would
be satisfactory if there was an annual statement laid
before Parliament of the condition and prospects of the
public educational establishments. The progress of
education did not correspond with the wants of the
country, or with the increase of the population, espe-
cially amencst the humbler classes. He thought that a
Bill should be introduced to enable parishes to assess
themselves fur the purposes of education.
Mr. W. J. FOX inquired how it was that in the last
published criminal tables the usual statement of the
number of criminals who could read, write, were
educated, or otherwise. was omitted?
Sir G. GREY was not aware of the omission. He
would inquire into the matter.

Mr. SPOONER complained of the heavy
item for
expense of management of the educational grant
nam:ly, 17,450/
Sir G. G REY said that sam wag not for expense of
management—there were 16,0001. of it fur salaries and
travelling expenses of the inspectors.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 125,0001. for the expenses of the Com°
missioners of National Eduertion in Ireland,
Mr. HUME wished to know what had been the sue'
cess of the model farms? . _

Sir W. SOMERVILLE was under the impression
that a report, containing a very satisfactory statement
on the subject, had already been made.
Mr. HENLEY asked how it was that the education
inspectors in Ireland received no more than 250/. each.
while so much more was paid to the English inspectors?
Sir G. GREY said their time was so much less occa.
pied than that of the English inspectors.
Mr. HENLEY observed that they were employed on
an average nine months in the year.
The vote was then agreed to.
01 the vote of 14,755/. for schools of design and pro"
vinciels,
Mr. EWART expressed a hope that the Government
would make some statement as to the increase which bad
taken place in the amount of this vote.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was true that the vote
wis increased by nearly 5,0001. since last year. It was
caused in a very great degree by what was called the
omfit-fond, and there was scarcely any way in which the
Government could more effectually promote the object in
view than by furnishing these schools with good models
and the best specimens of sculpture, which were supplied
at a small cost. Another object in view was to extend
to Ireland the benefit of these schools of design—(Heart
hear)-1,5001. had been granted towards their establish'
ment in Dublin, Belfast, and Cork; and he was bound
to say that the schools already established had been
gratefully received by the inhabitants, who had come
forward to assist the efforts cf the Government. He had
been in cersespondence with Lord Clarendon, and had
every reason to believe that they would be as successful
there as in England. The corporation of Cork had sub'
scribed 200/. a year towards them.
Mr. lIUM.E was fully sensible of the advantages
arising from these schools, but wished to know how it
wes that Birmingham, which subscribed nothing, ye;
ceived 6001. a year. . Sheffield again received 600/. ono
only subscribed 215/. It was not right either that
Nottingham should receive 450/., when it subscribed
only 2011.
Mr. LABOUCHERE admitted the importance of
making the grants and subscriptions balance eac:h other*
and this was kept in view by the Government as. far as
circumstances would permit, though, in some instance,
it had been found expedient to depart from it. In Bit'
naingham be believed a liberal ennscription- had been en'
tered into, but the return had not been male in tiCilet
and the same observation applied to Ireland, but they
would appear next year.
Mr. IIEADLAM complained of the injustice which
had been done to Newcastle-upon-Tyne, the grant, having
been discontinued in 1848.

Mr. HUME a3ked if it was intended to continue to
receive ordinary pupils in the metropolitan schoolit
which were originally supposed to be limited to the in'
struction of masters?

Mr. LABOUCHERE said it vral certainly tot la'',
tended to make the metropolitan establishments strictli
normal schools. London beirl a great manufacturiog
place, it was important that students should have the,
means of obtaining instruction there. •
Mr. HUME ob6orved that in that case London 0,08
also to contribute. '.

The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 2 006/., for the salaries of cer esio
professors in the Universities of Oxford and Caeibrielet
Mr. EWART urged on the Committee the impor
tanco of providing for the establishment of a profess' a"
ship of history, in connexion with diplomacy, in cpr
Universities—a department common in all the Univer
ties abroad. When the professorships of modern histe r/
were established at Oxford and Cambridge, in the Oa°
of Sir R. Walpole, it was with the view of connect tag
with it the study of diplomacy. He did not propol
that degrees should be taken in that department; 0'
knowledge, but certificates of competency migh'; be
granted. He thought our young diplomatists sh 001 j
undergo a regular examination, as it was the case natl
in many branches of the public service.
Mr. FIUME also thought no attache; ought to b'
employed without having passed a preliminary esteem;
nation, and they ought also to possess a knowledge °
the language spoken in the country where they wee'
employed.
Mr. W. J. FOX thought that before being called on t°
spend the public money they ought to know wheat ler
the lectures delivered by the professors in question wet'
to bo for the benefit of the public, or were to be coo;
fined to the wealthiest class of the community, On
those who entertained an exclusive class of theoloeoo°'
opinions.
Mr. C. LEWIS feared the Hon. Member for Dude
fries, in referring to foreign Universities, had in his el°
the science of diplomatice taught in the German Usli
versities, which had nothing to do with the sciences
diplomacy, but related to diplomas or ancient deeds.
Mr. EWART begged to assure the Hon. Gentlener
that ho was perfectly aware of the distinction.
Mr. GLADSTONE reminded the Committee, tJigt
although the public was good enough to pay 1,0004 1,0
each of the Universities, it imposed a very heavy 10'
upon the granting of degrees. He thought the tax €l4.
tremely heavy and unjust, and unworthy a great naeacal.
He entertained a sanguine bops that the alterations re;
cently made at Oxford would necessarily lead to a site °,7,/
of these matters relating to diplomacy and the law
,a'al
nations in its most extended and important sense. IP.;
hoped also that the public libraries of these Univeesit ir
would be male more generally available to the studeta'e
and the public.
Mr. LENNARD said that at Cambridge there We°
lectures upon the law of nations and modern histo: 11'
which were very numerously attended. Great fecal
were also afforded in the library of that University, a 0
no difficulty was experienced in obtaining books at g al
time.
Mr. V. SMITH said, if the withdrawing of the eata
on degrees would meet the expenses of the profee
ships. he thought it would be most desirable to get rt
of them, and et&ct thereby an arrangement that wt it ld
be more satisfactory to all parties. He though t
highly objectionable that the votes for the different 15 01'
versities and academies should be included in the (es a'
mates and discussed in that House every year.
Mr. EWART hoped that some arrangement would b°
made by the Noble Lord at the head of the foreign .die
partment by which those agents who were in futures tp„
represent that country abroad would not exhibits °:
great an ignorance of the first principles of diplonzu
as had been too often witnessed.
Lord PALMERSTON said some such arranger*/
had been for some time in curatemplation; and he bet Pe,
to be able to have an examination instituted for tb
receiving their first commission.
Mr. ANSTEY said in almost every foreign con *VI
they had a department of public law, and he might; Pe
stance particularly Russia, in which it was necessar y 1°„
obtain some proficiency before the lowest diplov tat',
post would be conferred on any candidate. Al. tb`:
Government officials were in that way conversant With
matters of which their diplomatic agents were
.pa°,
founclly ignorant, thanks to the education the'youtv ge'
so a of the ari4oeracy received at their Universities.
Mr. STANFORD defended the course of ecleemaion
pursued at their Universities, and observed that it sa°;
only necessary to look for a moment at the long list °
distinguished mon, both at home and abroad; who. bad
graduated at these Universities, to prove that they
sessed attainments of the very highest description. 01
complained also of the utter neglect of the Govern WO.;
in conferring appointments upon men who had p, Loco
through their University career with the greatest honour'
contrasting it with the manner in which the Governrcie at"')
abroad conferred their most important diplomatic: or
pointments upon those who had distinguished themsajce°
in the foreign Universities.

Mr. A. if. HOPE said that they had many distill:
guishel Members in that House who had graduated 0'
these Universities. The Right Hon. Baronet the Mt 03:
ber for Tam worth—for whose recent calamity they ni WIZ
all feel the deepest sorrow—was one of them.—(Hee C.,
At the age of twenty-one he was placed in a most p CO•
minent and honourable position, because he was a double
class man at Oxford. He did not think it fair to chs rge
the Government with this neglect.
The vote was agreed to.
3,6671., to defray the expenses of the University of
London, was also agreed to.
7,480/. was also agreed to for the Scottish Universi y.
Mr. EWART reminded the Committee of a petit io°
presented from the inhabitants of Aberdeen, complai niD,g
of the college library being closed to them, although it
was supported out of the Consolidated Fund. He h )potl,
that the Government would consider the propriet y o,`
affording the people free ingress to these regions
knowledge.
Mr. HUME also urged upon the Government the nee
cessity of making these libraries more applicable to
public purposes.
Mr. DUNCAN having expressed himself to the also°
effect,
Mr. F. MAULE said the attention of the Govern'
went had been turned to this subject. The Committee.
however, should perceive that the Government had wilt
little control over these libraries. The library of Edin'
burgh was for students exclusively.
The vote was then agreed to.

The following votes Were also agreed to:-
3001. towards defraying the expenses of the Royal
Hibernian Academy, and 6,5001. for the Royal Dublin
Society.
4,1001. for theological professors in Belfast as cots'
pensation for professors of the Belfast Academical Dr
stitntion.

Mr. V. SMITH wished to ask why there was an ity
crease of 5001. in the former vote, and of 1,0001. in the
present?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the extra 500/. is
the former vote was for building a hothouse apparatus.
In respect to the Belfast Academical Institution, there
were retiring allowances granted to five professors on
the opening of the Queen's College, and gratuities t°
others. These items would not of course be repeated i°
any future vote.
Mr. HUME asked why these five professors were 11(4
appointed to the new colleges?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said all that could be eP"
pointed had been appointed.
The vote was then agreed to.
35,569/. for defraying the expenses of the new but
ings at the British Museum.
Mr. WYLD complained of the smallness of the library"
room, and the want of accommodation fir either 03e
visitors or books. There were 40,000 volumes added t"
the library within the last year. Any person frequentil
this place must at once see the difficulty of procuring o
book published two or three years ago. There was 13
proper catalogue published. id
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
istr
that the usual time km giving the informative takou