The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-21 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, AUGUST 2l, 1857

and Tarbes. Yet, by the warrant of Oct., 1854, this dis-
tinguished soldier, who had retired when he became a
full colonel, was passed over by no fewearrthy gan 53 other
son after
officers, many of whom had joined the army
the close of the French war. There remained on. the
same list a great number of other officers who a g
amed
their promotion for distinguished g
allantry. Befo this
warrant came into play nobody could pass over the head
of a lieutenant-colonel but a Queen's aide-de-camp ; and,
relying on this rule, many
pay. He had brought this officers had gone upon half,
subject under the notice of the
house in the month of
Jane, when he obtained an assu-
✓c
that it would receive the attention of the noble
lord
dat the heads t the War Department. Sinoe then,
however, he regtted to say that as many as 25 men had
been promoted over the head of the senior colonel on
this list. No greater pay was given to a colonel than to
a lieatenant-colonel ; and a brevet might easily have
been issued by which these officers would have been
spar the mortification of seeing young men who were
subalterns when they themselves were lieutenant-colonels
preferred over them merely because they had been in
command of regiments for two years and nine months.
Be therefore trusted that the noble lord at the head of
the Government, who, he was sure, was always disposed
to reward the services of the officers of the army in a
fitting manner, would take steps in the course of the en-
suirg recess to remedy so grievous a hardship.
Sir F. SMITH congratulated the noble lord at the bead
of the Government on the introduction of the present mea-
sure. No sounder arrangement could be made than to
embody a portion of the militia. He believed that the re-
cruiting of the regular army would, at the same time,
be carried on with great success. During the late war
40,000 men were enlisted in the regiments of the line,
and we then had as many as 800 different recruiting de-
tachments. When the mutiny broke out in India we had
only 26 such detachments, but since that time the num-
ber had been rapidly increased, and now amounted to
between 300 and 400. Within the last fortnight we had
obtained upwards of 1,000 recruits, although the cir-
cumstances were unfavourable for procuring them. When
the harvest was completed we should no doubt get a
great many more, under the auspices of the distinguished
officer who presided over our recruiting operations. The
Government had despatched to India an augmentation
of the troops of the line, and also of the cavalry. They
were likewise, for the first time—it being an exception
to the ordinary rule—sending out a force of the Royal
Artillery. There were 3,000 Sappers and Miners attached
to vu, army, and he was quite certain that 1,000 might
be s-pared for India. He might be told that the East In-
dia Company had a sufficient number of engineers in
luc'ia, but ho believed that that was not the fact. He
bat, reason to know that there was a great demand for
eug inners in India. Of course, if Delhi bad fallen—and
be hoped it had—there would not be so great a necessity
for their services ; but every military man, and no man
better than the noble viscount at the head of the Govern-
ment, knew that there were but four ways by which
Delhi could be redused—first by capitulation, which was
highly improbable, and which would be very impolitic
for us to accept, be the terms what they might ; next,
by investing it, and reducing the mutineers by famine,
which would be a long operation, and one that would not
keep up the prestige of the British army in India ;
thirdly, by assault, and fourthly by escalade. The last
paused plan—that of escalade—would not be very easy
for us to accomplish, owing to the present position of
our army in India. It would be seen, then, that the
mast advisable means of radacing Delhi ewas that of
making a breach, with a view to its capture. Of course
it was very well known that the whole of the Sappers
and Miners belonging to the East India Company's
sei vice had deserted with the rest of the rebels, and
were now in Delhi. Every military man knew that the
sorties at Delhi had been conducted with considerable
ell ill. One of the flanks had been attacked, and another
&Irk turned, and if that flank had not bean composed
of British soldiers the men belonging to it would have
been doubled up and utterly destroyed. He should not be
at all surprised if the mutineers now in Delhi made ano-
ther Saragossa. Gen. Barnard had not, so far as he
knew, a single soldier who was able to do the work of a
sapper and miner. He therefore hoped that her Majesty's
G ivernment would'send out a large body of men tho-
rn tighly qualified to do that kind of work. Perhaps he
night be told that a European sapper could not work in
tl.a hot climate of India ; but he did not believe any.
tt ing of the kind. If we sent out European gunners to
work in the field, surely our sappers could perform the
less severe work of carrying on sapping and mining ope-
rations at night. Their work was invariably done under
cover. Moreover, he had been assured. on the high autho-
rity of a gentleman who had charge of the railway works
in India, that the whole of the Indian railways could be
coestructed entirely by European labour. He therefore
begged most respectfully to suggest to her Majesty's Go-
vernment the great desirableness of sending out to India
a portion of our Sappers and Miners, who, he was satis-
fied, would well discharge their duty.
Sir D. E. EVANS concurred in the suggestion of the
hon, and gallant gentleman as to the sending out of Sap-
pers and Miners to India. Even if Delhi were taken be-
fore the Sappers and Miners arrived there, they might be
most usefully employed in the construction of a series of
fortified positions. Europeans might not be able to work
so rapidly in India as the natives of India, but their
work would be more solid and finished than that done by
natives. They were now on the subject of the militia,
which was intimately connected with the whole of the
Indian question, because the militia was to be embodied
for the very purpose of meeting the state of things which
the mutiny in India had occasioned. He was very much
ac :onished to find that the noble lord at the head
of the War Department had stated that the number of
m iitiameu proposed to be called out for the present was
10,000. That number appeared to him to be totally and
absurdly load quate. He recollected complaints were
made by naval offcers almost on the eve of the declara-
tion of war against Russia of the insufficient number of
sa lore in the Royal navy, but not a sailor was added to
it, and the Government attempted to justify their supine-
ness by giving this very wise reason—that the increase of
(sir navy at that time might affect the negotiations then
being carried on wi'h the Emperor of Russia. He really
thought that the addition of merely 2,000 men to our
navy was not much wiser conduct than that of the Go-
vernment immediately previous to the war with Russia.
He begged to suggest to the Government the great want
of small steamers to carry on our operations against the
mutineers. We had several such vessels, if not rotting,
at least lying idle, which might be turned to coiel-
lent account if they were sent to take part in the opera-
thine in India. By their means our men could penetrate
tar into the interior of India, and a moral as well as a
physical effect would thereby be produced upon the peo-
ple of India. Ile hoped that the Government would em-
ploy some of our large ships of war in conveying troops
to India. The French set us the example of thus em-
ploying ships of war duriag the campaign in the Crimea.
Tire French navy did not entertain that prejudice which
it was said our naval officers entertained against the em.
pi .yment of war vessels as transports during a time of
w: r. Even if a little irregularity should be occasioned
in the discipline of our navy by employing our war ships
as transports, be thought that any objection which our
rival officers might have of that nature ought to yield
to a desire to promote the public good in a time of enter-
gc He hoped Government woald reconsider this
subject, and, if possible, employ the great and poa offal
steamers belonging to her Majesty for service in India.
E ery exertion ought to be made on this occasion. The
conflicts which had taken place before Delhi and in other
places were, he found, of a vigorous description, and it
woe gratifying to see the heroic valour displsyed by our
soldiers of every class in the face of vastly superior DlM-
berd. On this point he would remind the noble lord
that a year or two ago her Majesty determined to grant
what was styled the Victoria Cross for acts of special
yalour. In future that reward was to be given on the
fie 'd by the general commanding, and this was a most
de drable mode of distribution. He should recommend
for the consideration of the noble lord whether authority
m-eta not be given to Sir Colin Campbell to confer this
V.ctoria Cross as a reward for the gallant acts of our In-
di..n troops lately recorded. He thought also that on such
an emergency as this the Government should consider the
pr ,priety of removing the ground of complaint which was
m:.de more than once by the Duke of Wellington in hisde-
op aches—namely, that he had not the power of giving the
au attest promotion. It would be well to give the corn-
maederdo-chief in India the power not only to fill up
V* ,ancien, but to grant promotion, subject, of course, to
the confirmation of the Sovereign aed the Government.
lit, saw by the public journals that the force in the
Persian Gulf had been ordered back to India. The
its cement was, be hoped, correct. General Jacob, who
was in command of that force, was a man of great expe-
rience, of great scientific attainments, and of undoubted
abi.ity ; and no man in the Indian army stood higher
in the service. Independently, therefore, of the great
advantage which would be gained from his presence
in Scinde, where he was so well known, it was to be
hoped that his services would be made available in
boom command. The mention cf this officer's name, by
the by, reminded him of the statement that these mutin-
;Zbu' taken the Indian Government by surprise.
There most, however, have been some infatuation on the
PoVeoofftthhe Government on this point, for the whole
a Gene al had been laid bare seven years ago in
General Jeot a very striking character published by
Charles 14;144 The statements also made by Sir
ject ought eurel and other :officers on the same sub-
tak e steps to
a,4:lllsave induced the Government to
question of caste, eeoletangers pointed out. Up -in the
bad so much to do in this mat-
ter, he saw it reported la of the forces ntl newspapers that the com-
ord er of a character quite:Zt:lad lately issued an
that Presidency—
naroely, that recruits only
th should in future
be raised for the Bombay ariay"4,
Istate that
right hon. gentleman (Mr. V. y. H 5 hoped that the
tbin was not the case, or otherwise it would
strong proof to his mind of the unfitness of tuaadoaft'rd a
alluded to for the high command held by him. isToctettl'ihe
°m id be more obvious than the inconsistency ,flngd
the imprudence of attempting to engraft upon the wo,.
ba: army a system of caste which had led apparently
to awls fatal results in the army of Bengal. On ano-
tho r point connected with India he must express his
satisfaction with the statement of the noble lord the
other evening, that the Government intended 'to
Rive pecuniary aid for the establishment of the tele-
graph between Suez and Aden. It was true that this
would only apply to some few hundred miles of the
route to India, but no doubt it would greatly
fare
ittatte and accelerate the communication, and he
trusted, te I, therefore, the Government would see that the
utotertaking was carried out with despatch. With re-
gat it to what .had been said on a former occasion as to
the conveyance of troops through Egypt, he confessed
tilt; the statement of the noble lord respecting the diffi-
• ies by no means convinced him of the insP raotica-
bility of adopting this route. In his opinion, a portion
of'the troops might with great advantage be sent through
Egypt, and as the necessity for sending reinforcements
would undoubtedly continue he hoped the Government

would reconsider this subject. Other poin is connected
with the state of affairs in India had been to ached in the
discussions which had taken place, but to th see he would
not refer. He had neither the ability nor the disposition
to enter into the question of policy raised the other even-
ing by the right hon. gentleman opposite ; but there
were one or two matters relating to Indian policy which
it would not be well not to lose sight of. It appeared
that some of the native princes, even among those re-
siding close upon the scene of conflict, had remained
perfectly loyal in the midst of the disturba.ncea which had
taken place. Among them were Holkar, Scindiab, and
others ; and he thought it would be well without wait-
ing for ulterior events, that those princes would be told
that their conduct would be rewarded hereafter by an
extension of their territory or in some other way. At
all events, some declaration of the intention of the
Government to evince their satisfation at and their grati-
tude for the course pursued by those princes ought not
to be delayed, because it was of the utmost importance
to us that they should remain steady to our alliance.
Then, again, he ventured to think the Government
ought to make arrangements to finish this matter cer-
tainly in the second campaign. By next November our
troops ought to march with triumph through every
part of the disturbed districts. As to the reinforce-
ments he hoped these would not be despatched by
drlblets, but that every exertion would ba made,
without reference to money, to place the largest possible
amount of naval and military force at the disposal
,of the Indian Government, He had expressed his
satisfaction the other day that a large reinforcement of
artillery—consisting, he believed of 17 troops—was to be
sent out. It appeared, however, that those troops were
weak in number, and would only muster 134 gunners
each. Now, the strength of the troops of artillery in
the Crimea was eventually 204 men. In the present
case no margin was left for losses by sickness or other
causes, and he should not be surprised if it were shortly
found necessary to form tee() of these troops into one.
It was most essential for the Government to bear in
mind that from various causes heavy losses must be
looked for in the force despatched to India, and adequate
provision must be made to supply these losses.
Sir W. F. WILLIAMS quite concurred in the re-
marks by the hon. and gallant member for Chatham
(Sir F. Smith) upon the necessity of sending out Sappers
and Miners to India. When they remembered the
number of strong places which were now in the
hands of the rebels, hon. gentlemen might well
imagine the efforts which must be made before
they could be dislodged by troops of this description.
In his opinion, it would be necessary to send out
1,000 of this admirable corps with their officers as soon
as possible. He concurred also in the remarks of the
hon. and gallant general (Sir De Lacy Evan-) as to the
strength of the troops and companies of artillery which
were to be despatched. Tnese troops were about to em-
bark for a country the climate of which in some districts
was of a most deadly character, and therefore not only
ought they to leave England in as efficient a state as
possible, but every calculation should be made for the
casualties which might be anticipated in their ranks.
He did not concur in the hope expressed by the gallant
general, that if Delhi were taken, not one stone should
be left upon another. (Hear, hear.) It contained
arsenals and works which had been prepared with great
care and at great expense ; it contained, also, a large
amount of stores and ammunition, and a more se•
rious mistake had not been made of late years than
leaving such a place, full of such materiel, in the charge
of black troops. (Hear, hear.) Instead of Delhi being
destroyed, and not one stone being left upon another,
he hoped that it might be preserved with very
great c re, and that, if we once got possession of it again
we should never allow an enemy to be seen within its
walls. He agreed in all that bad been said with respect
to the want of fortified places in India. He had been in
all the presidencies of that country, and he had seen, so
to speak, the nakedness of the land—station after station
without a single stronghold. The consequence was that
when we were attacked all went over like a pack of cards.
He hoped that Parliament would turn their attention to
this su: jest and that we should never again permit so
great a calamity—he might say disgrace—to fall upon
the nation. He was perfectly sure that her Majesty's
Government would never at the commencement of this
session have reduced so many of the regular troops of
Great Britain bad it not been for the pnesSura from
without. He was satisfied, therefore, that it was not
their fault. He remembered how the noble lord the mem-
ber for London and the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the University of Oxford vied with each other—
bade as it were against each other—with regard to those
reductions, and be was persuaded that had the Govern-
ment attempted at that time to retain those troops they
would have been defeated. Let them hope that what
had teken place would be a warning to them—(hear,
from the oppesitioe)—and he trusted that hon. gentlemen
opposite who said " hear, hear," would assist them with
their votes when these matters came under consideration
in future. (An hon. member on the opposition side.—
"We have never done otherwise.") With regard to the

Sappers and Miners going to India, he remembered that
when Aldershot was being discussed in that house he
stated that he was in favour of Aldershot (Al condition.
inter alia, that the troops of the line should be instructed
in a certain amount of sapping and mining, in making
gabions, and is other things that might be useful when
they went to India. Ile only hoped that they had been
so instructed and that the authorities at Aldershot had
taken those. steps. If they had not, they might probably
hear opinions expressed when they came to discuss these
subjects next year which would not be agreeable.
Slr H. VERNEY was satisfied that whatever exer-
tions her Mdesty's Government might think fit to make
to meat the present crisis in India, to render our troops
victorious, and to restore that government and do-
minion which we had so long enjoyed there, would meet
with the cordial co-operation of the house and of the

country. (Hear.) He could not entirely cJncur with

_ . .
his gallant triead who had last spoken io saying that
the Government were not to blame for cutting down our
establishments, because he did not believe that they
would listen to representations made on either side of
the house unless they conceived that those representa-
tions were founded on justice and truth, and ho con-
tended that it was upon their responsibility and that of
no one else that the reductions 'had taken place. He
thought, however, that they should now inquire, not so
much who 'was to blame for the frightful calamity that
had taken place, as what measures could be adopted to
remedy the present state of things and as soon as pos-
sible to give protection to our countrymen in India.
He desired to see, for example, not only large steamers
employed upon the large rivers, but small steamers
sent op all the small rivers where our stations
mostly were established. Such steamers going up,
well armed and well manned, would afford the greatest
possible protection to those stations. He knew well the
frightful calamities to which our countrymen were ex-
po-ed, and he trusted, therefore, that there would be
notaingl,ke vacillation or want of strengtb, determination,
or vigour exhibited on the part of the Government or of
the authorities in India. (Hear, kear ) He was quite
sure that when the details of this Indian warfare should
be told we should find that there had been performed
acts of heroic valour and of wonderful fortitude on the
part both of soldiers and civilians which would fill us
with admiration and with national pride. (Hear, hear.)
In conclusion, he trusted that the gallant army which
was about to proceed to India would be provided with
adequate medical assistance and with every comfort and
necessary that could be required. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN, in answer to the various ques-
tions which had been addressed to him, said, that the
principle on which the Government had acted with re-
spect to ceiling out the militia was that the number
which they proposed to embody should bear some pro-
portion to the number of troops sent from this country
to serve in India. At present, according to the number
sent out, the Government considered that it wend be
sufficient to embody 10,000 militia to do the garrison
duty which the troops that had gone to India would
otherwise have done. If it should afterwards be found
necessary to despatch a larger number of troops to India,
then it would be requisite to draw more largely on the
militia ; but in the meantime 10,000 would be enough
for the purpose. He had received no intimation with
respect to the insufficiency of the information which had
been given to the surgeons of the militia to guide them
in the conduct of the recruiting service ; but if any of
those gentlemen thought it desirable that the directions
should be more p.ecise they would receive every inf r-
mation upon application at the War-office. It was im-
possible at present to state precisely which militia regi-
ments it was intended to embody. He was fully aware
that it must be a matter of great inconvenience to mi-
litia officers to be kept in doubt longer than was neces-
sary, and a 3 soon therefore as it would be possible to let
them know, consistently with the public interests, they
should be informed. In selecting the regiments Govern-
ment would be regulated by the reports which they
received as to the ability of the various regiments to do
the most efficient service immediately on being called out.
Admiral WA LCO TT suggested that Admiral Seymour
should receive orders to despatch all the small steamers
and gunboats which he had at Hongkong to India.
They would be of immense use in India, while as t) the
Chinese, we could take them in hand at any time, and
thrash them at our leisure. (" Hear," and a laugh.)
He took this opportunity of expressing the high opinion
be entertained of the gallantry and judgment which hal
been exhibited by Admiral Seymour and the officers,
both of the navy and marines, under his command, who
had been engaged in the operations in the Chinese waters.
Lord PALMERSTON—My leen, friend the Under-
Secretary of State for War has explained generally the
points of detail that have been referred to in the course
of this debate. I can only repeat what he has said, that
in fixing the number of the militia which we think it ex-
pedient to embody we by no means bind ourselves not
to call out more if circumstances should render it expe-
dient to do so. However, recruiting has gone cn with
great success in spite of the harvest, and we entertain no
dTatet that when the operations incident to this period
of the year are completed the number enroll id will very
rapidly increase,ranks and we shall be able to place in the
a number of
men equal to that which has been
sent to India. 14Iy
hen. and gallant friend the member
gestion which was ?mepaedaet t d U.-night a vLry natural sug•
for Westminster
troops should be sent tOnl previous evening, that these
ship 4, which could easily bledin in screw line
aadapted to that purpose,
-of-battle
which could be navigated by
with
nall
aerrreawn,g
eamn de wt omual
yd
carry a large number of men
speech. In the first instance such convenience and de-
appear to be very advantageous, bat I would request the
house to bear in mind other considerations in regard o
the amount of our military force at home whith have
been forcibly dwelt upcn. We were reminded that we
had been compelled to despatch to distant ata.tiona a,
large portion of our military force for which we asked

and which Parliament granted, for the general imposes
of the country in time of peace, and it was said, "By so
doing you have greatly weakened your defensive means
at home, and foreign countries may take advantage of
your apparent weakness, and either hold language which
you ought' not to bear or do things to which you ought
not to submit." The answer which I gave to that was
that the people of this country would nut endure con-
duct of that sort, and that if an emergency should re-
quire it men would be raised rapidly and upon the
sudden. That very considerati,,ri, however, shows
how inexpedient it would be to send to the other end
of the world the greater portion of our our naval force—
(hear, hear)—because, although these steam line-of-
battle ships are, it is true, lying in ordinary and of no
immediate use, yet if any of these events should occur
we should want suddenly to put to sea a large fleet, and
how could we do that if the ships which we should re-
cpiire were doing duty as transports in the Indian Seas ?
Therefore I think that prudence shows that the despatch
of these ships to the East would have been a very inex-
pedient course—in fact, it would have been falling into
the error which the great orator of Greece imputed to
the Persians. He said—
!

" When you strike a blow at one part of them they put
their hand to that part and leave exposed every other,
which may be struck in turn. Do not, you. Athenians,
follow so unwise and foolish an example."

I think we should have fallen into an error of the same
kind if we had sent to India the fleet which circumstances
cccurring in Eur *pa might, at short notice, render neces-
sary for our defence at home. (Bear.) Tee suggestion of
the hon. and gallant officer as to the sending of troops
across Egypt is well worthy of consideration. On a pre.
vious occasion I stated the objection to such a proceed.
ing. These objections it may be possible to overcome,
especially if you can make arrangements beforehand. If
a small force were required speedily at a particular sta-
tion arrangements might be made for sending it across
from Alexandria to Suez. With regard to tae general
question, I think that the house ought to take a larger
view than hon. members have generally been disposed to
adopt. We have been reproached for precipitately re-
ducing our army and navy upon the return of peace.
Some have said that in doing so we yielded to pressure
from particular members of this house, while others have
attributed it to a want of foresight on our part. The
course which we have adopted is the only one which any
government acting under a representative system such as
ours will ever be able to pursue. Different forms of Go-
vernment. have their different advantages. Undoubtedly
a despotic Government is the best for providing in time
of peace the means and preparations for war, because such
a Government, being subject to no control but its own
will, and possessing the foresight which you must assume
all governors of countries to have, keep up in time
of peace a larger force than is actually required for de-
fence, and when war unfortunately occurs it is at once
ready to meet the pressure which is thereby occasioned.
On the other hand, when war does break out then comes
the advantage of representative institutions, because
then it is that the whole nation rallying round the Go-
vernment gives to it a support and force which no des-
potic Government can by any means or by any possi-
bility possess. In time of peace, however, a representa-
tive Government is comparatively weak. It is not that
if we were to press this house we might not persuade it
to vote men in Committee of Supply. We might induce
it to give us a larger peace establishment both of army
and navy, but your votes of supply are of no use what-
ever unless they are accompanied by votes in Ways and
Means. That is the limit of your peace establishment.
What happens when peace arrives I What took place
last year 1 Daring the war the country was ready to
submit to any reasonable and necessary sacrifice to carry
it to a successful issue. It bore great burdens and %Joule
have endured greater still if it bad been satisfied that
they were necessary for the vindication of the national
honour and the assertion of national interests. Nations,
however, have no foresight, or at least very little. Indi-
viduals may have, but multitudes have none. The con-
sequence was that the moment peace was male every-
body from one end of the country to the other cried out
for the remission of the war income -tax. That was a cry
which this house was neither disposed nor able to resist,
the coheequence was that the Government found it abso-
lutely necessary to bow to the national will, and the war
inc •me-tax was given up. That reduced our income, and
we were necessarily compelled to proportion our peacs
establishment to the income which Parliament, as the
organ of the country, chose to give us. That was
the real reason of the reduction of our military and
naval establishments to an amount lower than cycle
have been expedient at the present moment. (Fleur.)
Still, with all the inconvenience which these changes
of opinion and of system may produce, there are in-
herent in a representative assembly se many ad-
vantages that these should be regarded only as defects
whiob the country must at ail times be ready to repair
by prompt and speedy measures • and I run quite
sure that those exertions will n ver be wanting when the
occasion may require them. The present case, however,
is not one of so much difficulty as was presented a; the
breaking out of the Russian war, because when that war
began all the addition to our military was to be made at
the expense of the country. The expense of any addi-
tions made now falls, not upon the revenues of tee em-
pire, but upon those of theaEast India Company. There-
._

tore, no additional expenditure is requ;red on the part of
the nation, and all that we have to do is, as troops are
from time to time withdrawn for action abroad, to keep
up our establishments at the numbers voted by the Gum-
mittee of Supply. That I think we shall be able to do ;
but this house has already unanimously vottd an address
to the Crown, assuring hue Majesty that nothing shall
be wanting on our part to enable her to carry on opera-
tions in India with vigour and success ; and if between
this and the period at which Parliament usually meets
it should be necessary to ask for further assistance, law

quite sure that no members of this house would grudge

tire attendance which might be necessary to afford tut
assistance to the Government. (Cheers.) My hon. and
gallant friend thinks that a large naval force ought to be
sent to India, as a flotilla which shou!d operate in the
rivers. The house, must, however, recollect what I am
sure my hon. and gallant friend from his experience
knows very well, that the Indus and the Ganges, al-
though they figure well upon a map, and are really very
large streams, are not generally of such a depth as to be
navigable by ships which we could send from home.
Their navigation is impeded by sandbanks, shoals,
rocks, and shallows, and any ships which we could
send from this country would be perfectly useless ex-
cept just at their mouths. My right hon. friend the
First Lord of the Admiralty has sent or is sending
out such a flotilla as it possible to despatch from
England, but it must be remembered that the
East India Company have a navy of their own.
All their ships were employed in the Persian expedition,
but the greater portion of them must by this time have
returned to India, and therefore their crews can be placed
in their shallow boats or rafts, which alone are useful for
the navigation of the rivers of India, and by which any
operations in those rivers can best be performed. With
respect to Persia, the engagements embodied in the re-
cent treaty have not yet been fulfilled. Herat has not
yet been evacuated. On the contrary, there are reports
which affirm that additional troops have been sent by
Persia to Herat. That has been denied by the Persian
Ambassador at Paris ; but still the whole of the engage-
ments of the treaty have not been carried into effect ;
great doubts are entertained as to the good faith of the
Persian Government ; and therefore, until the stipula-
tions of the treaty have been complied with, it is per-
fectly clear that the British force cannot and will not be
withdrawn. That force is under the command of Gene-
ral Jacob, a most distinguished general officer, and until
that force has been withdrawn it will be necessary to
have there an officer of the great military experience
which General Jacob possesses. Well, then, I say we are
thankful for the suggestions which have been made this
evening, coming as they do from persons who are so well
competent to make them, and I can assure those who
have offered them and the house that they shall receive
every attention from her Majesty's Government, who
will take advantage of any of those suggestions that they
may think likely to conduce to the efficiency of the pub-
lic service. But I entreat the house to believe that the
attentions of her Majesty's Government shall be most
carefully and anxiously directed day by day to these sad
events. We feel not only how of are ;he detaili
which reach us from time to time, but also the vast im-
portance of the conflict now going on. We hive no
doubt, however, of our ultimate success, We are co-:fi-
dent that the strength and power of this country will be
put forth to suppress this insurrection, let the causes of
it be what they may, whether they be religious or
political, or from whatever sourco they may have
sprung. (Cheers.) I shall not enter into those causes
now ; but I can assure the house that we feel the
full importance of maintaining the Indian empire of this
country, that no exertions towards that end shall he
wanting on our part, and I have the most perfect confi-
dence that those exertions will be attended with complete
success. (Cheers.)

Mr. DISRAELI (who spoke in so unusually low a
tone of voice as to render it a matter of difficulty to col-
lect the whole of his observations), was understood to
say—l only wish our home defences ware at this mo•
moment not inferior to what they were during the late
war, for we had then our Artillery, our Marines, and
our Channel fleet. But now our Artillery has gone to
India, our Marines are in China, and out` Cis ennel fleet
—(the remainder of the sentence was inaudible). We
must remember, with respect to the observations of
the gallant general as tc the transmission of troops by
ships of war of the highest class, the, according tJ the
raiparts we have, there are ships of that character quite
sufficient to make an efficient defence of our own coun-
try, and to act in the manrer which the gallant general
suggested, while we might at the same time have
the great advantage of a Channel fleet. But I think
everybody must admit that in an emergency of this
kind, after all we have heard of scientific progre-at
during the last few years, and of the application of
cienca to the purposes of war, and alter ad we
have heard of screw propellers and overland routes to
India, it is extremely mortifying to find that we can-
not have recour-ie to any of those new sources of
strength. (Hear.) I think that is very much to he re-
grated ; and although we may not be able to send 30 000
or 40,000 men over Egypt, yet there can be no doubt
that 5,000 men, if they had been sent through
Egypt, would have been a mast valuable addition
to the force which we have in India, and, arriving there
very shortly after the troops we had sent to Chi, a, there
would have been a force of 10,000 men, which would
have had a very considerable effect on the fortunes of
the war. I am very glad to hear that this militia force is
called into action to suyply the place of our regular gar-
risons. I think it is very much to be regretted that it
has become prevalent of late to look on the militia merely
as a means of recruiting the line. The highte,l charact-r
of the militia, that they arts the constitutional defer dere
of'our country, ought never to be lost sight of. Duikg
the late war it was to be regretted that at no time
was therq a militia regiment that was not pestered by a

parcel of recruiting agents, and that the tone and charac-
ter of our militia regiments in the service was lessened
and degraded. Al this might have been awe ided, and
greater support given to the regular army if there had
been a nearer relation between the militia regiments and
the line. In the old revolutionary war there were certain
relations between the militia regirnentsand the regiments
of the line which acted reciproca'ly and most beneficially
on each other. The regiments of the line were recruited
from the militia, and the tone and character of the militia
regiments were much higher during the r volntionary
war than during the war with Russia. Complete militia
regiments at that time were enlisted for active service,
and I believe there was then a greater and more contiun-
one supply of men, although those arts of enlistment
which were practised during the late war were not had
recourse to. However, the militia is to be embodied, and
that is a vexes wise and proper measure. I wish it had been
on a greater scale, but at the same time it is to be em
boeied for a great public purpose, and I have no doubt
the result wilt be highly satisfactory. It is unnecessary
for me to enter into any discu sion with regard to our
position in India. The gallant general has spoken on
that subject with authority and als with great courtesy
in reference to some observatioes which I recently ad-
dressed to the II muas. No bins that has since occurred
has at all modified the opinions to which I then give
expression ; but I don't think it advisable or exoeuient
to enter into any further discussioe on that subject. We
have only one object before us, and that is, to far as the
House of Commons is concerned, to let the government
understand that we aro most anxious to forward all those
measures which are calculated to bring the efforts row
making to suppress this mutiny to a successful termina-
tioa. (Cheers) But in so doing we should remember
the responsibility which devolves on us all freely to
exeress our opinions if at any time we should think the
Government are not acting in a manner tending to pro-
duce the results we so earnestly desire. I very mucli
doubt shether the suggestion of the gallant general with
respect to sending a steamboat to Cawnpore, armed as
he stated, could be carried into effect. But there is no
doubt that at this moment much depends on the fate
of Cawnpore. I think it is a much more i portant ques-
tion than that of Dslhi. There is a railroad from Ale-
babad to Cawnpore to the extent of 60 wiles, and, at-
though the locomotives are liable to destruction from
looal causes, it is still used as a tratnroad. There wilt be
60 or 70 miles more, over which the troops would have
to march, and in a country where the population is
to a great extent in insurrection ; but it may be assumed
that in five or six days the force from Allahabad
would arrive at Cawnpore, and that would he the signal
for success. It appears to me that on the fate of Cawn-
pore much, if not everything depends. If we can main-
tain our post there until November, when the a vanes of
the army takes place, we may indulge hopes of success.
But in so doing it is of the utmost importance that we
should in November make an advance, both by the
Indus and through Bengal, which will demonstrate to
the whole peninsula of India that cur force is compre-
hensive and irresistible. I trust the pass of her Majesty's
Ministers will justify these expectations. I am net
entirely satisfied, however, as to the sources from which
their support is to ba gathered. The other night inquiry
was made as to what might be expected from the Cape.
We have a very considerable force at the Cape, and the
policy of the Government, which is to keep a 1 trio mili-
tary force at that point, is one calculated to exercise in-
fluence in emergencies similar to the present. But I
have never heard from Her Majesty's Ministers whether
we really are to expect any a,sistance or any contribu-
tion from the garrison of the Cape to this army which
we art collecting in India. The hon, and gallant general
the other night pressed on the house the expedie..cy of
ending some regiments from the Cape, and the Secretary
of the Colonies, who followed him, I think, said the
Government had pointed out the imp rtanca of this
policy to Sir Georgd Grey, the Governor of the Cape,
and had left the matter to his discretion I repeat, I
should like very much to know whether the Govern-
ment can tell us whether the Governor of the
Cape is taking any steps in this emergency, and
what proportion of the forces under his control he
is prepared to contribute to our Indian army.
There is an impression abroad that the Gevernor of the
Cape is not inclined to see his forces diminished, and as
the importance of the question um hardly be exaggerated
I should be eel if her Majesty's Ministers could satisfy
the house and the country upon that point. We may be
told there is some danger of a Caffre war. Of course, if
we are officially informed that there is such danger we
must give great weight to the assertion, but from all the
information which reaches me—and which is u nofficiel—
I should say that there is ne dauger of a Ceffre war.
Probably at this moment there is less expectation of such
a war than there has been for many years past, and I am
therefore desirous of knowirig why so many regiments
aes retained at the Cape a; a crisis like the present. I
ask this question because I remember that the Governor
of the Cape—a gen lernan of great eneigy, who has shown
on many occasions that he possesses go Miles which en-
title him to cmuraaoal—.vas for some tittle Governor of
the settlement of New Zeeland, and that during the
period of his gevernorship he maintained the largest tut-
LtAry force that could be assembled in that. colony. At
one time there were at least six regiments in New Zea-
land, au] the presperity of the colony aed the great in-
crease of revenue were perpetually pressed upon our
attention ; but this proep-rity turned out to be mainly,
if not entirely, attibuteble to the expenditure of the
large military force. I now find the same Governor at
the Cape of Good Hope, with a still greater military
foioa. I know that the e.penditure of a regiut,ot at. the
Cape is, calculated on the lowest estimate, 30,000/. a-
year j and I can awlerstand that a gentleman who has
the reputation of great energy, and who has a large
military force under his command, would feel—if it
were left to his discretion very much indisposed
to decrease that force. I stoeld, therefore, be glad
to learn whether her alajesty's Government—from gene-
ref information, and upon their responsibility—havegiven
more definite directions for the despatee of troops to La-
dle from the Cape than a mere appeal to the discretion of
the Governor. In touching on this subject I cannot help
referring to a point upon which I should have been glad
to hear the opinions of hon. gentlemen of the military
profession. I allude to the term of military service of
regiments in our colonies. Some of the regiments sent to
our colonies are kept there a much longer time than is
just or politic, or for the interests of the coutery. I re-
member that at the beginning of the session, an boo.
friend of mine asked the noble lord whether it was
the intention of Government to recall the 45th regiment
from the Cape of Good Hope, but the noble lord replied
that he had nothing to do with the disposition of her
Majesty's troops, and that the question was one for the
H -rse Guards to determine. Tuis is an occasion on
which that subject may be referred to, and I must say
that the petition of the 45th—a regiment of very high
character—ought not to be unnoticed in such a discus.-
skirl as the present. The usual term of service for an in-
fantry regiment in such a colony as the Cape is, I under-
stand, 10 years, but tie 46th has been at the Cape for 15
years, and I believe there is no prospect of its relief. The
consequences of such service, protracted beyond the in-
tentions of Government and of the country, are most
serious and injurious ; and if a regiment in these circum-
stances fails under a governor who likes to be at the bead
of an army and to exerci-everygreat it fineries and autho-
rity the prospect of re ief is so slight that unless its psi-
ton is brought under the notice of strati au assembly as
this it is likely to remain without redress. Tne 45th regi-
ment, which went cut to the Cape in the expectation of
remaining there 10 years, has already been on the station
15 years. The men have no quarters; they are scattered
in detachments over South Africa, leading lives of con-
tinual hardship; yet they are Eoglishmen, officered by
English gentlemen, and there is no prospect held out to
them of any redress. At the commencement of ibis veer,
in May, I be ieve, there was a sort sof unoffietal announce-
ment that they were about to be relieved, and I am told
that the scene which toait place between the officers and
men—such of them, at least, at could be collected, for
so scattered were the detachments that it would have
required two months to assemble the entire regi-
ment—affected all those by whom it was witnessed.
I should be very glad to hear that they were going to
India t 3 besiege Delhi or to relieve Cawnpore. After
undergoing years of toilsome duty they had no opportu
nity of gaining promotion in the Crimea, or of attaining
that distinction which all Englishmen covet. I believe
the position of this gallant regiment is tinily heartrend-
ing, and I trust the Government will con-tiler the eircuin-
cancel to which I hate cattle f attention. The hon. and
gallant General who spoke in defence of ih- Gove.rnmeut,
and who vin licatee his friends in a manner which I
should be very sorry, were I in their position,lo experi-
ence, has accounts ! fur the reduction of the rniatary and
naval forces of the county t n grounds which I confess,
somewhat het. ,nished me. I understood from hen that
the Government were fully sensib!e that the military
forces of tl.e country ouelat to have been maintained in
much greater strength, but that the Hou-e of Commons
would n,,t, support this necessary establishments, and
that, notwithstanding the conviction of the Government
that reductions we:* kipolitic and itijutioas, yet, prefer.
ring place and power to the policy which they thought
right, they yielded their convictions to a Parliamentary
necessity. No er, lam not a supporter of her Majesty's
Government, but if I had the honour of sitting behind
the noble for I, I should do him aud his colleagues the
justice of saying that they were never influenced by
any such considerations. I am sure that the pre-
sent Ministry, or any other Ministry, would upon so
grave a subject be influenced eerily by their opinions as to
what was necessary for the advantage and welfare of the
erueere. I deny that the members of Parliament
who have been referred to ever exercised a y " pres-
sure frotn without," or were not p rfectly justified in
the course they adapted. When we were ereasgea in a
most expensive and arduous strugele, during which no
cne can preteed that the H .use of Commons did not g;ve
the Government every support they required, the ttie,n-
bers who sat behind the Government and the Opposition
vied in placing at the disposal of ller Majesty's Masao
ters all the means which were necessary fur bringing the
struegle to a succeetful issue. That of jset was attained.
.•
I have before expressed an opinion, whi h I now repeat,
that the settlement of Pans—although there might be
objections to points of detail—was such as to give us the
exaecta.ion of aI mg and perroanei t pawl. NV bat as,
then, the duty of the Heuse
tiVc purse. Sternly,
when ,n is that of guardians of p . • e
Cemmsns ? Our highest
when war had cea-ed, and wben we were t,•l I and be-
-1 eved tbat there was an expectation of an enduring
peace, our first duty was to enforce economy—and the
most rigid economy—upon the Government, and to di•
miuish the procure of taxation upon the people as much
as pessitl The only return we could make to the pee-
ple for time a J:tl ittid patriotism with which they came for-
ward in t-me emergency was by shoeing that, when Vie
creis was past, we were mindful of our duty as stewards
of the public purse ; that we were tint debauched by the
habit which prevails in Parliameet during a time of tear
of easily voting public money ; that we were prepared
to enforce upon the Government a system of reduction and
economy. Tbis was the first duty of Parliament ; and it
was secured, to respond to our wishes. I say, se
was the first duty of Government if tat y believed that peace therefore,

far as the House of Commons wag concerned, that we
acted most wisely in the course we took ; because whet ex-
cites in emergencies a prompt and paeeienaterespeeee to
the appeals of the Government on the part of the cem-
munity, who have been described by the noble lord ac so
short-ighted, but the conviction that advantage will not
be taken of their generosity, and that when the desired
result has bee, accomplished their interests will be con-
sulted, and that they will leo allowed to husband their
resources which, if an emergency should again arise, cm
atone enable them to afford similar assistance to the Go-
vernment ? It is the econotiv, the retrenchment, and
the reductions of taxation effected after a war which en.-
able the community, when an emergency again arises,
to come promptly and powerfully to the aid of the Go-
vernment. I conceive, therefore, that when, as merebers
of the House of .0 ,morons, we impress upon the Govern
meat the neces-ity of reductions, we merely do our duty;
and not only do we do our duty to our con-tituente, who
have the first claim upon our consideration, but gene•
rally and abstractedly we adept a politic course, beceuse
we enrich the community, and enable them, when a ne-
cessity again arises, to steeply the resources which may
be required. There is some distinction between the posi-
tion of a mere member of Parliament and that of a Mi-
nister of the Crown. A member of Parliament deems it
his duty on the termination of a great struggle, and after
the commencement of peace, to enforce reduction and
retrenchment. Something more was to be expected from
the Minist,r of the Crown. He, has sources of informa-
tion not open to us, and he has a policy in his mind of
which we are not the sharers. He has a responsibility on
him ten thousand times greater than all' the members of
Perdament put together ; and if the Minister honey( a
it to be not wise or expedient to effect reduction or re-
trenchment, the Minister under those circumstances is
bound to come forward, and if he has the conviction it
is not only his duty, but, in my opinion, it would be on
his part a duty which he could successfully fulfil, to im-
press that conviction on Parliament. If Parliament
pressed the Government for reductions which they be-
lieved would be it jurioun to the country it would be in
the power of a Mmist r—and I am sure it would be in
the power of the noble lord, addressing the house in a
warning and monitory tone, without making any reve-
lations inconvenient to the public service—to make such
an impression on Parliament as to induce members to
relax in the efforts they were making and in tbe opinion
they were urging. I do not =ay that her I.llajeoy's
Ministers had a consciousness of the danger of the course
they were teking. I commenced by expressing my
perfect belief that they had not, though as to some p Ants
of degree and time I might have some difference of
opinion ; but in the main the Ministers thought the time
had come when they thought economy ought 0 b • en-
forced and reduction practised. But did the crcum-
stances of the empire justify the Ministers in having
that cpinion ? I express my conviction that they did
not. I think the Ministers ought to have been more
aware of tue condition of the Indian empire than they
were ; or if they were realty aware of the condition of
empire, I do not think the Ministers were just.fied in the
c mrse they pursued aed recommended to Parliament.
It is easy to say that it is of no use now to inquire what
is the cause of the convulsion which has taken place.
Then we are told that the events were such as no one
could guard against ; but if we maintain that argu-
ment we put onreelves in a false position, for if these
things could happen without any human being an-
ticipating them, what use is there for any G o
vernmeht I If without the slightest expectation
twenty-four hours beforehand an insurrection can
take place extending over a country nearly as large
as Europe, and with a population of 180,000,000 of
sous—if such a thing could happen without those
who are responsible for the administration of that
country having the slightest previous knowledge or sus•
ptcion t.f it--I want to know of what use or value is the
Administration under circumstances of that kind. Every
day soinethieg oozes out which shows that the Admini-
stration of India ought to have been, if not absolutely
prepared for all that has occurred, most suspicious and
prescient of what has happened. You cannot justify
now, when you are more acquainted with the circum-
stances—you cannot, with your knowledge of the in•
subordination of the Bengal army, justify that Admini-
stration in permitting a post like Delhi, the areeoal of
the Empire, to be garrisoned solely by naive troops,
when they must have bad information of the mystical
symbols of combination and conspiracy circulating in
that very city at the commencement of this year. Tneee
are questions not very convenient new to urge, but when
attacks are made on members of Parliament becau-e
they performed their duty, after the conclusion of the
war, in enforcing economy and retrenchment on Mini-
wero and when it is said that the lash of our present
position is due to members of Parliament doing their
duty, it is right for us in our defence to make these re-
marks, and to impress on the country other considera-
tions besides those which were submitted by the hon.
arid gallant General. I repeat, we did our duty in
enforcing ecoeolny on the Government, though it is very
much to be regretted, considering what has happened,
that we were successful in our policy. I doubt not
thae the Government of this ceuutry acted fairy and
candidly by the house in consenting to that great
reduction of taxation, and t • those general measures
of econonty which were adopted. They did be-
lieve, no doubt, that they had provided sufficiently
for all the exigeecies of the country, but the Ministers
cannot relieve teernselves from this grave responsibility
which devolves on them, for having, in c)nsequeece of
their fwal ignorance of the condition of a great portion
of her 11,j,..hty's empire, and of their total negligence
and inadvertence, sanctioned the policy, which Perlin-
, meat commenced, of reduction, at a time when it i-quite
, clear that it they had been in possession of that infor-
; (nation which I maintain they ought to have been in
p nsessi in 01, must have appeared a most un wise policy,
and which has proved most injurious to this country,
Mr. V. SMITH—The present debate began by the
hon. and gallant general and by another hon. member
offering some useful suggestions on the question how the
revolt iu India might be put an end to in a tone for
which the Government could not be otherwise than
grateful ; and the right hon. gentleman, when he began,
assumed the same tone, and, as I understood, deprecated
the discussion at the present time of the causes of the
Indian mutinies. At the close of his speech, however,
Inc right hon. gentleman forgot his opening warning,
a el fell into that line of observations in which he had on
, a former occasion indulged. The right hon. gentleman
refereed to the speech of the hon. and gallant member
for Caine, whom he represented as saying that the Go-
vernment, being perfectly aware of the great need of
troupe, had cut down the force from fear of the House of
1 Commons. Now, I understood the hon, and gallant gen-
lil-man to say tio such thing ; bet, at all events, lam sure
1 the Government had no intention so to act. My Delete
1 friend has stated what I believe to be a perfectly ackuo w-
leaged constitutional doctrine, which the right hon, mem-
ber fir Buckinghamshire has himself adopted—nameiyn
that, though it is the duty of the House of Commons
to enforce economy on the Ministers, yet, if the Minis
lyre are aware that the state of affairs in Europe or in
any of her Majesty's dominions makes it fat el to ditui
nigh the military forces, they are bound to defy—if I
may use the ex,aressien —even the House of Commons,
and to force on the house those considerations which
appear to them important. The Ministers, however,
were aware of no such considerations. They proposed
Ia pace establishment, which they are still disposed to
th nk was a sufficient peace establishment, and which
happened to be above the peace establishment existing
before the commeecement of the war. But the right
hon. gentleman says that the Government ought to have
been aware of this affair in In-lire. Now, if the right
hon, gentleman enters is to that argument, and states
•
I the reasons why he thinks se, I hope I shall be prepared
to meet him; but on the present ores-ion he had only
adverted to one circumstance in connexion with that
point, and that is that Delhi, being a large arsenal, had
been left unprotected by Europsan troop. Now, if the
Government in 1857 could have been aware of any
danger existing in that circumstance, every Govern.
ment for the last 20 or 30 years ought to have been
equally cognizant of it ; but they never were, and I
deny that there existed any particular circurnstancss
attracting the attention of Government to the un-
protect,.d state of Delhi. It was aleays believed
throughout India that Delhi was an unsafe and
unhealthy station for European troops, and Sir C.
Napier, whose opinions on Indian affeirs were touch
referred to, desired a largo arsenal there, to be
pi...tooted by 12 native regiopentn aed never proposed
to awe European troops at that station, 'Phis may be
a question of policy, but neiteer the present nor preced-
ing Governments should be blamed 4th reference to
this paint. Tee right host. gentleman [as defeaded
himself from a supp ‘sed attack for having eeforeed
economy. Tue G,rernmsnt do not make any charge
against him upon that 14r nin4. Toey think it is the
duty of a mew her of the House of C mimons to c nisider
matters, and when we are turd
that t diminished the forces too touch 1
reecfaenrfiimir Geipilvey'itrlonl mehen the e
statement of my noble friend, woo
pointed out that, though the Hou-e might tell the Go-
vernment that it would vote a larger number of troops,
yet the House was not ready to tel him that it Would
vote larger ways and means to maintain them. Hi n.
members surely cannot have forgotten the war 91. The
cmetry called out to the Government to get rid of that
war 9.1., and I think that that cry was perfectly far at
the tim, after the termination of all the calamities
which bail occurred, and there being no circurnstanc es
in Europe or in any of Her Majesty's possessions
which indicated any (ati,e of alarm rendering it neces-
sary t r keep up that tax. If, therelo-e, any minister
hat come down to the House under these circum,tence•
and stated that he would n -t take off the war 91 , cc-
tcra'
House'u'p st'
i.o, feCuacrri Isi'ne arsenal
amapol lr(ielfa, Dawneidlihnilhi: was
aouvulell di) been
°h ta
ev
eett scouted
oeb uny t at Ede
cu by
syo el ) det I 'he
o nf
putting it forward merely for the purpose of keeping
up large establishtnente. It would (mile been said this
was a plain IMP(A,I',II on the pert of the Government,
tern) outbreak there could possibly be anticipated.
The tight hon, gentleman referred to a statement made
by cry noble I/1-nd the member for the city of Linden,
who i xereised hie surprise—a: which Idu not v-or:der
—that, cou,i,icring ad the inventions of modern science,
we should haven) better Ulf ans of despatching treys to
ledia than Ly sailing vesse!e. The asairnetine, however,
is not spite accurate, ler great care was taken ie the
coesidera ion ( f this question, and a number of troops
were sent out iu screw steamers, the ethers being sent
in c!ipoers and sailing; vessels. But the right 11(.nouratio
gentleman forgets that there were many advantages in
eeudine out the troops by good clippers. They were
riot ugly more econo,nical—which I admit is not itself
a eufficient consideration—but regard being bad to the
season of the year tho passage is as likely to be made by
tnem in 70 days as by the screw steamers them-elvee.
every consideration .wr.s g.ven to the matter with the
view of , xpediting the transport of troops to India, and
considering the season of the year and other circumstan-
ces tlee clippers were thought to be rather better than
bteamers. With regard to the question whether the

troops ought to have been sent through Egypt the house
must look at all the oireums.ttances. If we had bad
steamers in the Red Sea to c niveY the troops from Suez
to India, that would have been the most expeditious
mode of transit, and we might have overcome the politi-
cal difficulties attendant upon the passage of troops
through a foreign country. But we had no such steam-
ers ready, and if we bad communicated with the Indian
Government, desiring that they should be sent, or if we
bad sent them ourselves we should have lost as much
time as in sending the troops by the usual route. There
was another reason in the unhealthiness of the Red Sea
at that season of the year, which rendered it undesirable
to send troops by this route. We could not by any de-
gree of foresight have been provided with ships at Suez,
nor, if we • had sent out screw steamers, would there
have been a sufficient provision of coal at the usual coal-
ing stations, since the coal provided for those steamers
which usually run would have been entirely insufficient
f'r the large system of transport rendered necessary by
the recent occurrences. There has, therefore, been no
neglect of the modern inventions .of science, nor any of
that du tress, ignorance, or prejudice which might be
presumed. All that can be said is that, um:er the cir-
cumstances, we have not been able to deal with the mo-
dern inventions of science so amply as we might other-
wise have done. Then the right hon. gentleman says
that troops ought to have been sent from India from the
Cape. I can assure him that the Government test no time
in sending the most positive instructions to Sir G. Grey
at the Cape to forward two regiments imenediat.-dy to
India. It has been left 'in Sir G. Grey's discretion to
send more than two regiments, or not, but he is in•
eructed to send as many more as be can spare. I
do not think that more distinct instructions could
have been sent to the Governor of the Cape. At the same
time it happens by a curious coinci.lence that L Ord Elphiu-
stone, the Governor of Bombay, with an energy and dis-
cretion that cannot be too highly applauded, sent for two
regiments from the Cape, au.l also despatched. vessels
whereby they might be forwarded to Bombay without de-
lay. (liar.) Ido not think, therefore, that the Gov-
ernment eau. be justly charged with any want of energy
and foresight in respect to the Cape. But the right hon.
gentleman has thrown out a' charge and has led us by im-
plication to suppose that Governor Sir G. Grey is not
likely to act on these instructions, or to send as many
troops from the colony as he can spare. I have the honour
of Governor Grey's acquaintance, and I do not believe
there is any man more ready to act on his own responsi-
bility. Sir G. Grey is not only a man of judgment, but of
undoubted nerve and high courage. He is not likely obe
alarmed at the position of affairs in the colony, and the.o
is no doubt that if he can spare more than two regiments
he will send them to India. Governer Grey in all the
offices he has filled has executed his duties to the satisfac-
tion of his superiors and the public. I happened to be
attached to the Colonial-office when he was first appointed
to a colonial government by my noble friend the member
for the city of London. That appointment was given to
him from a knowledge of the energy and skill he had dis-
played in his journeys in Western Australia. At that
time Governor Grey was unknown to my noble friend
(Lord J. Russell), but every Colonial Secretary-retained
him in some colonial government until he was ap-
pointed Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, in as hich
post he has acted with courage, spirit, and judgment.
(Hear, hear.) My hon. and gallant triend the member
for Westminster has referred to the native Princes of
India, and he says that we ought to inaeiest our satis-
faction with their se; vices and fidelity by giving them
an increase of territory. Well, that may come here-
after, 'but it is at present doubtful wherner it would be
expedient to exhibit in that manner our acknowledgment
of their conduct. Many of the waive princes have be-
haved with great gallantry, generosity, and friendship
to the Government of India. The hon. and gallant
gentleman has referred to Holkar. That . chief has, no
doubt, maintained his allegiance and behaved with sin-
cerity to tee Government of India, but it also happens
that Holkar's troops have all turned against us; anti it
would therefore, be rather premature to give him an in-
crease of territory. [Sir D. L. Eeralle—" These troops
have been put upon him.l They are supposed to be under
him, and in such a state of things it would be premature
to give increased territory to any chiefs who have exhibited
their goodwill in so unsupported a manner. Many of the
suggestions of my hon. cud gallant friend will be valuable
as objects of future policy. The hon. and galant gentle-
man the member for Chatham (Sir F. Smith) recommends
us to send out sappers and miners. That suggestion, com-
ing from so experienced an authority, no doubt deserves,
and will receive due attention. Tire right hon. gentleman
has suggested that steps ought to be taken for the relief of
Cawnpore. That is a question which it would be difficult
to entertain here ; but I have no doubt that by this time
Cawnpore is relieved. I regard the remarks of my hon.
and g .11ant friend as suggestions rather than attacks upon
her Majesty's Government ; but when my hon. and gallant
friend says that he agrees with the right hon. gentleman
the member for _Buckinghamshire in thinking that the
Government ought to provide for a second and third cam-
paign (Sir D. L. EVANS—" A second- campaign"), I must
'state that the Government have provided a force which
they consider sufficient; and which they are assured by all
the authorities upon Indian subjects will be amply suffi-
cient to extieguish the flame of insurrection in Indie. We
have sent out an officer of undoubted ability--Sir C. Camp-
bell— to take the command of the army in India. There
is already in the command of that army Sir P. Grant, also
a gentleman of undoubted ability, awl well acquainted
with the Indian army., It would not be wise to predict
the course which it tiny be necessary to pursue hereafter,
The Government will deep itch a sufficient force to India,
but before they send the large reieforcements which some
persons think necessary it may appear that the distin-
guished officers to whom I have alluded may be of A
d.fferent opinion. We shall be prepared to act on the
suggestion of those officers who are roust competent to in-
form us, but I hope that the house and the country will
feel assured that there has been no lack of consideration as
to the amount of force necessary to put an end to tha re-
volt. An ample force has been scent out. for this pug-pose,
and our reinforcements will arrive at the bast seas.in of the
year. They will, I cannot doubt, display -_those military
qualities which lead to success, and, although I would not
hold out hopes that might be falsified by the event, I will
assure the house that this question has not been treated
lightly by Her Majesty's Government, but has been re-
garded by them as one of the most serious events that has
ever occurred to this country. (hear, hear.) These
difficulties will, however, be surmounted, for I am certain
'we shall be backed by the house in every endeavour to
overcome there. (Cheers.) And when Tier Majesty's
Government turn their minds to the reorganisation of the
Indian army, and to the question whether it will not be
their duty, by a largo addition to the European force in
that country, to keep down the appearance of insurrection
on the part of the native regiments, they will at the seine
time consider by what means they can best secure and ad-
vance the happiness, comfort and wellbeing of the natives
of India. (Cheers.)
Mr. HENLEY said it would be out of place for him to
offer an opinion on military affairs, but he felt bound to
take some notice of the speech of the hon. and gallant
member for Caine (Sir W. Williams). He did not know
whether the hon. and gallant gentleman intended to make
an attack upon his friends on the Ministerial beaches
for providing insufficient means for putting do en this re-
volt, but he eel make au attack upon the House of Com-
mons for having put a pressure upon the Government and
for having cut down the establishments too low, an 1
he, for one, protested agaiust any such conclusion. What
had since taken place completely negatived such a con-

elusion, unless, indeed, the hon, anti gallant gentleman
(General Williams) was of (pinion that the Government
ought to have foreseen the danger c f this outbreak in India.
The Governmeat were now despatetaing between 20,000 and
30,000 men to the East, and yet they had not felt it neces-
sary to call out the militia—they hal'merely asked for the
power to ca'l it out at some future period. Surely, when
it had furnished the means in time of peace of sending out
a force of 20,000 or 30,000 men to the other end of the
globe, the House of Commons could not fairly be charged
with having cut down the establishments of the country
too fer. The right hon. gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) had
confounded two things that were totally distinct,. When
asked why a European force had not beeu stationed at
Delhi, the right hon.. gentleman's answer wus, that that
could not be done consistently with the remission of " the
war ninepence." Now, whatever might have been the -in-
formation possessed by the Government as to the nee:ssit,y
for garrisoning the seat of the ancient Mogul empire, it was
plain that the war ninepence could have had no possible
connexion with the matter, because they all knew, and the
noble lord the Prime Minister had that very night assured
them, that the cost of providing additional regiments for
India fell exclusively upon the Indian treasury. (Hear, .
heir.) He denied, then, that pressure had been put upon
0 the Government by any part of the House to compel them
to reduce the military force of the country below the
proper limits. Whether the Government might have hail
reason to anticipate such an outbreak as had since occurred
in the East was quite another question, into which he
would not now enter. But whatever might be the require-
ments of India, that House ought nut t' be reproached
with having forced the Government to cut down the mili-
tary strength of the kingdom to a point iucomp itible with
the national safety and honour. (Hear, brae.) Indeed,
the noble lord the First Minister hail him,el oz.
ontrated the Flouee of Commons from the char=s which
the le- n. and gallant gentleman had thought ht to bring
against it.
General WILLIAMS complained that what he had said
ha I been misapPre',ended by two right, hon. gentlemen who
had addressed the House. He ha t made ue attack upon
the House of Commons. He hail merely stated his opinion,
as a member of that assembly, that the re luiitions which
had been effected were unfortunate and precipitate. And
he had added, so great was the pressure from without, that
if the Government had thought it necessary to have a
larger body of troops, they would not, from the ,pirit of
certain' parties inthe house, have been able to obtain them.
Sir D. L. EVANS explained that what he hal said in
regard to flolker was, that that chesf had peen personally
faithful to us, and that he had proved his fidelity by send-
ing his treasure from In lore, hie own'capital, to our fort
at Mhow. lie was quite aware, however, that Hulkat's
regiments bead mutinied.
Mr. DISRAELI also explained that the President of the
Board of-Control ha-I attributed to him, iu regaid to a
third campaign, the very reverse of what he had really
stated. What he bat said was that they should take care
to finish their operations in the second campaign, so as to
preclude the necessity of a third.
Mr. SPOONER auitnadverte t on the absence froni the
speeches of the First Minister and the President of the
Beard of Control of any recognition of our entire depend-
ence, fur the success of our measures to quell the revolt in
India, upon the blessing of Divine Providene.
The bill was then read a third time and pesied.
_ DULWICH COLLEGE BILL.

Mr. LOCKE presented a pertiion from the parishes of
St. Botolph, St. Saviour, St. George'e, SJuth wark, and
Camberwell, praying that their right to elect two govcr-
uors each to take pert in the nrinagement of Dulwich Col-
lege should be continued to them.
elr. BAINES, iu moving th,rt. the Lords' arnrulmonts
to this bill be now ,read, writ' he should move that the
house should agree to all the Lords' amendment& to the
bill, with the exception of that which redhead the number
of elected governors by the four parithes interested, from
eight to four. At the proper time he wool t Move that the
Commons insist upon the number of gui.idiaus, front the
parishes in question, should be eight. When the bill first
came to the Commons there vas a scheme for a governing
body by which there was to be one elected guardian from
each of the parishes in question with It. nominated guar.
discs. The bill was referred to a select committee, a 1,1 it
was recommended that the numbers of elected guardians
should be two from each of the parishes, and that there
should be 16 nominated gu9rdiatis ; and in this state the
bill was sent to the House of Lords. Their lordship, how
Well,f four
h o
ever, altered the governing body to numbertheold o
elected guardians, and 11 nominated guardians.
did not object to the numbers of the non-elected bele', re-
duced, but he thought the parishes had a, rig ht o
geardiani each, as it was proved that such as the desire
of the original founder of the college, This was the reason

why he should ask the house, at the proper time, to insist
upon their amendment in reference to the eight elected
members, and to disagree with the Lords' amendment on
the subject.

The amendment of the Lords in respect to the nomi-
nated guardians was then agreed to.
Mr. BAINES then moved that the Commons insist
upon their amendment in respect to the right of the four
parishes named to elect two guardians each, and to dis-
agree with the Lords' amendment on the subject.
Mr. KNIGHT moved the t.djourotnent of the debate,
and said that theflllows of thecollege had misappropriated
the property entrusted to their charge, and this compact
which hail now been entered into was one of the worst
that could possibly be devised. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY said the bill had been carefully consi-
dered by select committees of bith this hou.e and the
House of Lords, and he did not think this was the time to
discuss the merits of the bill. The only' question was,
whether they would agree to an amendment of the House
of Lords, whether there should be eight members in the
governing bodies of the parishes instead of four, and he
hoped the discussion would be confined to that point.
The amendment was ultimately withdrawn, and Mr.
Baines's motion agreed to.

The several amendments wt=re then gone through, the
house resolving to insist upon certain of them, and not to
insist upon others.

A committee was then nominated to consist of Mr.
Baines, Mr. Miller, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Cox, to con-
fer with the House of Lords on the subj-ct, and it was
resolved that the committee meet forthwith.
CROWDED DWELLINGS PREVENTION BILL.
Mr. COWPER said he bad coins to the resolution to
withdraw this bill, feeling that in the last week of a pro-
tracted session the opponents of the meaAure had a power
commensurate more with their pertinacity than with their
numbers. The opposition in the present instance had this
peculiarity, that it came mainly from hon. members who
represented thos, parts of the metropolis in which evasions
of the law were most frequent, and in•which the greatest
nudiber of lodgin4-laouses were found, to the injury of
health awl the detriment of morality. Under these cir-
cumstances he begged to move that the order for going
into committee upon the bill be discharged.
Mr. AYRTON regretted that the right hon. gentleman
had not done a graceful thing in a graceful manner, but
had considered it necessary to make remarks as uncalled
for as they were unfounded. The right hon. gentle oan •
had no doubt wiLlidrawn the bill because he had disco-
♦ered that it VVPF4 entirely erroneous from beginning to end,
that it would not carry out his professed object, and that
it was not in the least degree necessary. The hou. and
learned gentleman concluded by stating that he intended
to give a notice of motion which he believed.would go to
the rent of the evil.
The order was then discharged.
FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND).

Mr. HERBERT obtained leave to 'introduce a bill, with
a view t., it 4 being printed, for regulating Lira and mar-
kets in Ire,lan I.
AUSTRALIAN POSTAL SERVICE.

Mr. MACARTNEY moved for an address for copy of
any contract entered into with the European and Colum-
bian Steam Co. or the European and Australian Royal
Mail Co., in pursuance of a tender bearing 'date the 11th
June, 1856, and bigned by John Orr Ewing. for conveying
the Australian mails from England to Melbourne via

Southampton, Alexandria, and. Suez; returns setting
forth the number of days occuoie.i in each voyage out and
home, separating the portions of the route between South-
ampton and Alexandria from that between Suez and
Melbourne ; also a list of penalties incurred by reason of
non-arrival according to contract, and the. amount (if any)
alrea iy•levied or deducted from the contractors' remune-
ration ; of the name, touthge, and horse-power of all
vessels employed by virtue of the said contract in the
A ustra,ian p•astal service; and copies of all communica-
tions between the Treasury, the directors of the European
and Anstrali kir Royal Mail Company, and of the Royal
Mail Steampacket Company, with the view of amalga-
mating said companies, to enable them •to continue the
mail service to Australia and the West Indies as one com-
pany, and the terms proposed by the Government of the
said united company for periormance'of the postal serdices
now performed by those companies separately.
'lho hon. member was proceeding to state what he be-
lieved to have been a failure on the part of the precept
contracting company to comply with the conditions of their
contract, when he was informed that his motion was not
opposed, and he thereupon resumed his seat after moving as
above.
Mr. WILSON said there was no objection to give the
returns which were asked for, but he could assure the hon•
member that although there had been one or two failures
incidental to a new company, yet upon the whole the ser-
vice had hitherto been satisfactorily performe.l. The
Government had exacted the penalties prescribed for any
breach of the terms of the undertaking, and would con-
tinue strictly to enforce the contract.
Mr. tONINGFIA.M. wished to know in what manner
the public would be benefitel by the amalgamation of the
two great steam companies which had united to carry out
this contract. It was said that great favouritism bad been
shown, anti he believed there was good ground for the
statement. The companies had not done their work, and
the system of penalties which was supposed to keep them
in check was a mere fiction.
Mr. WILSON said that the question of the amalgams-
tionof theitwo companies had not come before him officially
but when it did it would be considered solely with a view
to the public interest.
The returns were agreed to.
MILITARY EXECUTIONS IN INDIA.

Mr. RIOIdAItDiON moved fora return of the number
of mutinous soldiers belonging to the Indian army who had
been blown from the cannon's mouth since the last revolt
began, and the places and under whose orders these execu-
tions took place ; and asked whether such executions were
in amordance with the rules of military discipline in In-
dia?
The hon. gentleman was unable to find a seconder for
his motion, and it was therefore not put, nor was any an-
swer given to the question with which he conclude,i. This
r,sult was received with cheers from all parts of the house.
The house then adjourned at half-past 10 o'clock.

Country Markets.

MANCHESTER--Aua. 20.

With an average attendance this morning there was only
a limited inquiry for wheat and flour, at an a iVAILIC9 of 2s
per qr. for English, and 3,1 per 'Nibs on American, and is
to 2s per sack on the latter since this day se'nnight. Oats
and oatmeal woie both in request, at extreme rates. Beans
and Indian corn unchanged.