The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-15 00:00:00

BANKUPTS.

John Worseldine, upholsterer, Cambridge, to sur-
render, February 27, and March 26, at twelve, at the
Court of Bankruptcy. Stansfeld, official assignee;
Smith and Johnson, Lincoln's-inn-fields.

Thomas Sadler and William Edmund Sadler, sail-
makers, Brightlingsee, Essex, Feb. 22, at two, and April
5, at one, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Whitmore, offi-
cial assignee, Basinghall-street; Bull, Ely-place, Holborn;
Abell, Colchester.

Richard Noble and George May, fancy cloth manufac-
turers, Almondbury, York, to surrender, on the sth of
March and Bth of April at the Court of Bankruptcy,
Leeds—at 11. Official Assignee, Henry Philip Hope,
Leeds; Floyd, Huddersfield, or Bond and Barwick,
Leeds.

John Price, cabinet maker, Birmingham,_ Feb. 26 and
March 26. at twelve, at the Birmingham District Court
Valpy, official assignee, Birmingham; Chesshire, Bir
mingham.
Hugh Parry, druggist, Abergelo, Denbighshire'
March 1 and 22, at eleven, at the Liverpool District
Court. Bird, official assignee, Liverpool; Dodd, Liver-
pool.
David Blackburn, Thomas Pickles, David Crabtree,
and William Blackburn, cotton-spinners, Halfax, York-
shire, March 5 and April 9, at twelve, at the Leeds
District Court. Hope, official assignee, Leeds; Hobson,
Halifax; Cariss and Cudworth, Leeds.
Frederick Johnson, watchmaker, Lincoln, Feb. 27 and
March 27, at half- past twelve, at the Leeds District
Court. Carrick, official assignee, Hull; Andrews, Lin-
coln.

Abraham Desforges Wiley Desforges, brickmaker,
Alford, Lincolnshire, March 6 and April 3, at half-past
twelve, at the Leeds District Court. Carrick, official
assignee, Hull; Portington, Alford; Bunney and Wit-
soy, Hull.

James Stephenson, draper, Arbour-terrace, Commer-
cial-road, Feb. 26, at halt-past eleven, and March 28, at
two, at the Court of Bankruptcy. Bell, official assignee,
Coleman street-buildings; Reed, Langford, and Mars-
den, Friday-street, Cheapsids; Sale, Worthington, and
Co., Manchester.
Thomas Skelton Heightholm, painter, Scarborough,
March 5 and 26, at one, at the Leeds District Court
Hope, officio! assignee, Leeds; Robinson and Greene,
Leeds.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 14.

ABUSES ON BOARD EMIGRANT SHIPS.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL gave notice that to-
morrow he would put a question to the Government re-
lative to the statements which had appeared in the morn-
ing papers as to certain gross abuses alleged to have
occurred on board the barque Indian, an emigrant ship,
on her voyage to South Australis.
DOLLY'S BRAE.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY also wished to
pat a question to the Noble Lord on the subject
cf the motion of which he had given no-
tice respecting the Dolly's Brae affair. No dis-
cussion in the House would be productive of good, it
would only be calculated to keep up a feeling of bitter
hostility in Ireland, more especially when brought forward
by a great party leader in that House. If the Noble
Lord had any practical object in view, such as
moving a vote of censure on the Govern-
ment, it might be feasible to bring it forward.
but if he had no practical object in view, ho
(the Marquis of Londonderry) deprecated the
discussion of the subject. The thing had
gone by, and the proposed discussion could
only produce bad feeling, more especially as there had
been an agitation set on foot in that country kr the
reduction of rent. He thought it would be better that
the Noble Lord should withdraw his motion.
Lord STANLEY had understood that the Noble
Marquis had intended to put a question, but he was at a
loss to discover what the question was which the Noble.
Marquis intended to put. He should in his speech con-
fine himself to the consideration of a great constitutional
question, without at all alluding to the Noble Marquis,
or to his tenants on the subject of rent.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained.
IRISH POOR-LAW UNION,
(Continued fr( m our Third Edition of last night.)
Atter some further observations from the Earl of
LUCAN,
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said ho had paid
considerable attention to what the Noble Earl had said,
and bad no objection to the production of the papers he
had moved for, but the papers which would elucidate the
whole state of the poor-law as it was now administered
in Ireland would in a few days be laid before the House,
and the Noble Earl would therefore agree with him, that
this was not the moment, in the absence of the details, to
give consideration to the subject. He should, therefore,'
content himself by saying that ho was far from disagree-
ing with the Noble Earl in some cf the observations he
had made; but he could m t concur with him in what
he considered so unusual and exceptional a course as
that of administering the law in the manner he had
suggested. He would not go the length of saying
that the returns would be perfectly satisfactory to
their Lordships, but this he would say, that they
would be satisfactory as exhibiting throughout
Ireland au immense diminution of out-door relief. They
were sufficient to enable him to form a conclusion by
which it appeared that the expense of administering the
poor-law in Ireland, brought down to the month of Ja-
nuary, had diminished considerably more than one-third
—ho believed in the proportion of 170,0004 to 100,0001.
That this was the case was very mainly owing, so far as
concerned the district with vt hich the Noble Earl was

connected, to the great, persevering, and most laudable
exertions of the Noble Earl himself. He would now
suggest to the Noble Earl that he shouNi alter the terms
it his motion so as to include the papers which he pro-
posed to !sty be fore the House.

The motion having been altered accordingly was then
put and agreed to.
The Marquis cf LANSDOWNE laid upon the table a
copy of the Commission to inquire into the state of
Smithfield-market, and other papers, by command of her
Majesty, and
Their Lordships adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 14.
MINISTERS' MONEY IN IRELAND.
Mr. WILLIAM FAGAN presented a petition nu-
merously signed from Cork against ministers' money.
The 110 N. GENTLEMAN then rose to move for a Com-
mittee cf the whole House, to take into consideration
the law relating to the rate or tax called " ministers'
money." in Ireland, with the view to the repeal of so
much thereof as relates to the said rate cr tax; and fur-
ther to take itito consideration the Act 3 and 4 Will.
IV., c. 114, called " The Church Temporalities Act," for
the purpose of amending the same so as to provide
thereby a substitute out of the revenues of the Ecclesi-
astical Commissioners as a provision for the Protes-
tant ministers in certain corporate towns in Ire-
land, in lieu of the annual sums now re-
ceived by them, under and by virtue of the
Act 17 and 18 Charles 11., cap. 7. The Honourable
Member stated as a reason for his motion, that the tax
called ministers' money pressed with great severity
upon the poorer classes of the Roman Catholic popula-
tion in the large towns of Ireland, particu-
larly in Dublin, Cork, Clonmel, Kinsale, and Water-
ford, and led to lamentable and endless
sectarian rancour among the Irish people. He
thought that the least that the Catholic population
of those towns could ask from the Government was, that
they should be freed from this odious impost. Last year
he had endeavoured to show that a substitute could be
easily provided from the funds of the Ecclesiastical Corn-
mission.On that occasion the Right Hou.Baronet the Home
Secretary had moved the previous que,tion, which he
took as a proof that he (the Right Hon. Baronet) ac-
knowledged the justice of his sentiments. Ina private
interview which he had had with the Right Hon. Baronet,
he had understood him to be favourable to his project;
and in addition to this, be argued from the late visit of
her Majesty to Ireland that the Government were desir-
ous of relieving the known grievances of that country.
It was in this stage of the question, that he (Mr. Fagan)
came forward to provide a substitute for this tax.
On the death of the principal bishops the income of the
Ecclesiastical Commission in Ireland would be increased
by the sum of 13,5001., making a total income of 300,0001.,
and he submitted that it would be of advantage to the
Commission to encourage the purchase of perpetuities,
and i❑ other ways to relieve the people of this impost
He proposed that the sale of perpetuities should be ap-
plied as income till the revenue of the Ecclesiastical Corn-
mision should be increased. He bad prepared a Bill, if
the House would allow him to bring it in, to meet the dif-
ficulty of the case, which measure he thought, with the
advance of 30,0001., would obviate every difficulty.
There was no such thing as ministers' money in Eng-
land, and he did not see why the Catholics of Ireland
should be burthened with it. He deprecated the neces-
sity of their coming there year after year to put
an end to so miserable a tax of 15,000/. a year, while
the Protestant Church were in possession of almost all
the best lands of Ireland. The Hon. and Learned
Member concluded by moving the resolution of which ho
had given notice. _ _

The motion having been seconded, and the question
put,
Sir G. GREY said that the Hon. Gentleman had
brought forward his statement that night in the same
spirit of moderation and fairness as that which had
marked his speech of last session, and he had nothing
whatever to complain of in the manner in which he had
argued his motion. He regretted, however, that the
circumstances being identically what they were when he
brought the question forward before, he was compelled
to lake the same course, and to move the previous ques-
tion. The Hon. Gentleman bad stated that which he
admitted was much to bo deplored, that the incomes of
some of the clergy in certain towns in Ireland, under the
Act of Charles 11., were dependent on the ministers'
money, which was regarded as an obnoxious tax by
those who had to pay it. It appeared before the Com-
mittee, the report of which the Hoe. Gentleman had
referred to, that the cosdact of those clergymen in fore-
going their claim rather than incur the odium to their
religion and hazard their amicable position with their
parishioners had been highly commendable ; lout he
thought that when his Honaurable Friend referred
to this Committee, he did not distinctly state
what the recommendation of that Committee
was. The Committee, adverting to similar pro-
positions for providing a substitute, stated that
the ministers' money could not be abolished without a
substitute being provided, and without the Honourable
Gentleman concurred. The Committee went on to say
that having instituted an inquiry into the funds of the
Ecclesiastical Commission, they had received every fa-
cility from Sir Ilenry Meredith, &c., by whom they had
been furnished with documents which were appended to
the report, and the Committee came to the conclusion,
that there were not sufficient funds to be applied as a
substitute for ministers' money, but that the income of
the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was adequate to the
actual expenditure ; and that as a large increase
would hereafter take place in the funds of the Eccle-
siastical Commissioners, in this state of things the
Committee thought it right that the augmentation of
the funds might bo rendered applicable to ministers'
money when that augmentation should arise. They
thought that the substitute might apply, and that there
was no doubt that this obnoxious import would be
abolished. There had been a suggestion, he believed,
thrown out by some witnesses, that this harge should
be thrown on some Government fund, say the Consoli-
dated Fund.—(A laugh.) Ile thought it desirable that
some substitute should be found, but there did not ex..
ist at present any funds available to those purposes ;
therefore ho was compelled to move the previous
question.
The previous question having been put,
Mr. M. POWER said this tax was a most obnoxious
one, because it tell exclusively on the poorer Roman
Catholic artizans, and the money was often obtained by
the se mire of their goods, and even their clothes, and
the very pots in which they boiled their Indian meal
were subject to the rapacity of the emissaries of the
clergy. They were told the difficulty of removing this
tax was the finding a substitute; but he thought that his
Hon. Friend had pointed out clearly what the substitute
ought to be. He asked the House, whether it was not a
gross mockery that this abuse should be allowed to con-
tinue, and that the richest church in the world should be
unable to provide for the poorer clergy in certain towns
who were thrown upon this fund? Let justice be
done to Ireland in this and all other cases of real
grievance.
Mr. HUME—The Right Hon. Baronet had said that
this question came before the House under similar cir-
cumstances to those of last session. Bat he begged to
remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that since that time
her Majesty had been to Ireland, and had been pleased
to declare her desire to remove all grounds of complaint
in Ireland. But here was a payment which was un-
equally assessed in a few, towns, and which fell upon
Roman Catholics only. Church cess had been done
sway with in that House, and this tax should be dealt
with in the same way. He protested against this im-
post, more especially as a similar impost was levied in
Edinburgh, and in the town which he represented.
This ministers' money bore the stamp of oppression
upon it.

Mr. MONSELL said it was not his object to discuss
the question of the Irish Church, but to refute an ob-
servation of his Right Hon. Friend the Home Secre-
tary. His Right lion. Friend admitted the grievance
complained of and refused to redress it. In many eases
of turnpike Bills, or other matters of lesser import-
ance, that might be a good argument; but where a large
number of people were interested, he could not think
that was a sufficient answer to that House. He would
read to the House an answer given by the Lord Bishop
of Limerick. His Right Rev. Friend was, he believed,
looked up to by everybody in his diocese, and he, after
stating what the grievance was, and after stating the
weans by which it ought to be removed, by taking a
sufficient sum out of the funds of the Ecclesiastical
Commissioners, continued:—" But to this it may be re-
plied, that for many years they would cut off the means
to build new churches. His answer was that it
was only the choice of evils, and that of the two
courses it was most important to provide for the pro-
per wants of the clergy?' Then be had the opi-
nion of the Bishop of Down also, who stated that
almost all the payers of the tax were Roman Catholics.
And it would be remembered by any one who attended
before the Committee, that so unjust was the system of
valuation that a poor person whose house was valued at
601 some years since, though it had since fallen to the
value of 261., paid the same amount of ministers' money
as Messrs. Beamish's property, which was valued to the
poor-rate at 2,3001. Another clergyman said that to en-
force his right must interrupt the harmony which ex-
isted between himself and his parishioners. That cler-
gyman observed that he was aware that many clergymen
could not make this sacrifice, as in some cases the whole
of their income was derived from this source. There-
fore these clergymen did not agree with the Government
as to the removal of so unjust and obnoxious a tax. He
concluded by simply saying that if the Government ex-
pected the people of Ireland to entertain those feelings
of affection which he earnestly wished they should, the
Government would take the earliest opportunity of re-
moving an impost which ho believed no other people in
the world would bear, and which, while it continued,
would create feelings of disaffection.
Mr. NAPIER thought that the nature and character
of this tax MO much misunderstood. It was not per-
sonally a tax on Roman Catholic occupiers. It was
continued on the settlement of iproperty in the time of
Charles 11., and it was a very different charge from what
was generally supposed. Ho admitted there was much
inconvenience in the collection of the money. He ad-
mitted that in many cases the clergy had forbore their
rights, rather than hazard any disagreement with their
parishioners. But the fact was, that this money was
originally put on corporate towns in Ireland at the time
when they were exclusively Protestant, and ty an Act
of Charles 11. the whole property was remodelled, and
the course taken was this:—People who had been dis-
possessed of property in the towns got property allotted
them outside (if the towns, and the corporate towns were
inhabited by English settlers. The Crown had then the
whole fee of the property, no one had any right in it
but Charles II.; and having invited English settlers
to these towns, he then provided that there should be
a charge on the house for the purpose of supporting
certain of the clergy. And so far from those who
received this money ever preaching doctrines which were
obnoxious, he would appeal to both Roman Catholics and
Protestants whether there could be a more diligent, use-
ful, or benevolent body of men to be found in any Fart
of The charge being Qn the owners of )394§00,

on whom else c 'old they put it ? No substitute for ilia
ministers' money had ever been proposed
by anybody,
though the question had been discussed year alter year.
His Honourable Colleague and himself, in Committee,
had
agreed to exempt small tet ements frt,m the impost ;ru ,e!
as to the removal of the tax, there haying begin no
stitut) named, ho was confident that no man with e
sense of justice would do this. A Right Rev. Prelate had
regretted that there should be another Parliamentary
confederacy on foot against the Church of Ireland, 01'
observe i that they who knew tbs effect of the sad tithe
war of 1832 should he cautious how they proceedcdfinr
such a course. The ministers' money was provided
all
in the Church Temporalities Act, when Mr. O'Conn
was in the House. He was t remove any ln*
convenience in the mode of collecting for small tents,
merits, but he hoped that the House would not flascet,
the views of any Hon. Gentleman who sought to dePr'r-
these reverend gentlemen of their vested rights.
eei.
Mr. KEOGH said it occurred to him that though the
lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat dewy,
to
and those who acted with him, declared their anxiety
remove an inconvenience, still there was els% 538 so
special objection made—this was not the mode in whichl.his
it ought to be done, or no substitute was supplied r?, 1,„,
tax. He thought that everybody must agree thi3 :;
incumbent on the Government, when a grievegriethe-
admitted, where Protestants as well as Roman ,-;_tflog
lies were rii!grieved, to find a substitute. counish-ero
rest with an indi pendent Member to do this. 131.3 t Lee
was something suspicious as to the willingness of lara
gentlemen to remove this odious tax, because he 13 oval
the Hon. end Learned Gentleman confound the reTnif•-4
of the ministers' money with an anti-tithe war.t o
Hon. and Leaned Gentleman was anxious to rem
the burden, why should he deprecate the agitationo:
the subject? This evil was complained of, not by n°,,W 0
Catholics, but by Prott,stants also. Every dergr;
e
gale his testimony in favour of this removal of tit get:
post. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that; re
the origin of the tax, the owners of house property "lso
all Proiestants. Perhaps he would say they were 0
now. He did trust that the House would enforce aPe
the Government the necessity of removing this icaP,re
Mr. COWAN was glad to hear the obnoxious lie'„t;
of the tax was admitted by her Majesty's Goveratet-ch
and he was much disappointed, after the expectationsw"l.o
had been held out, that so little progress had been 03e50
in respect to the carrying out this question. T"9 ld to
ago a commission had been appointed to Prt'ee'
Edinburgh to inquire into the annuit tax of EdinboArgio
A report had been given in about ya
year er, ev- d
hie Ler
had frequently put questions to the 140--- ti fsc•
on the subject, but had never obtained a '
the con
tory reply. It that House wished to secure , ;hy'
fidence and respect of the people of Scotlana, ' •
bleb
should proceed to inquire into the circumstance' Dot
titularly. so grievous to the people of Edinburg" 'lot
titularly. What the remedy should be he Wall a
prepared to say. „rod
Colonel RA WDON said the Honourable and J-47 r•
Gentleman the Member for Dublin University IS; bow
tied the House to the realms of antiquity to Pr°,Y,o-paid
this tax had originate]. But he begged to ask e':4",-91 to
the tax now? The House would show it svaet.i", poet
the claims of justice if it remained deaf to te", ga
just demand fur the abolition of this odious imPes, haa
could not refrain from doing on this occasion as
done on former occasions—namely, voting for the -
tion of this tax. and
The gallery was then cleared for a divisg,"a'
the House divided on the previous question, "
question be now put." The numbers were--
Ayes
Noes

••• _4O
Majority ••• ••• 96
•" et Pet,
Consequently the motion of Mr. Fagan was 9n
TRANSPORTATION. a Oil
Mr. ADDERLEY moved for leave to bring in 00
repealing part of the Act of Geo. IV. which crePii, to
ber Majesty, with the advice of her Privy. Coto,l,_e the
l'
appoint any places in her Majesty's dominions for
of
transportation of felons and others under senteew bee
punishment. What he proposed was, in eutureemeet,
it became necessary ts make any new penal sett sore'
the choice should be made, not by the Colonial gitieo
tary, but by Act of Parliament ; and this prolleolvi tte
had been suggested to his mind by the teor , fore
petitions which had been presented to Parliament cope
the Cape of Good Hope. It might be said that the ailed
ought to be satisfied with the success which had rest thiJ
from its resistance; but it should be recollected th,i: heft
was not the first time that a similar attempt bad filar
made, for the colonists had been subjected to t,sljelia
treatment in the times of Lord Stanley, 1,00.001 o•
Russell, and Mr. Gladstone. But, even if the CaP.°,,
!lists were satisfied at present, there was no sesap.s_thes
the future, either for themselves or the colonists 10:1 the
quarters of the world. Besides, the resistance u
coloel
Cape had not been perfectly completed, for the its.'".
was still liable to the receipt of military c°lll inter
(Hear, hear.) His object was not in any way tentrsrY.
fere with the system of transportation; on the °t el,'
he wished to remove from that system the grease oval
struction to its successful operation—the bsstYo-010ail"
in winch it had been so frequently changed by
tot the
Secretaries. He did not wish by any means t° cbe ele
slightest reflection on the Colonial Secretary, Pife Wale
not so much to blame in these rapid changes as
ulatiun
Secretary, who frequently, on finding an 80;0'1 which
of convicts, sent orders to the Colonial Secretary h Lord
he had difficulty in complying with. Alt/1110000
Grey might be blamed in the last process, be :king tbib
blame under the original circumstances. In r" e in the
proposition he (Mr. Aaiderley) did net infraTleestY' or
slightest degree on the prerogative of her ee;-(lleti to
propose to take the power that proper!): ob regatiLl'.
her. Transportation was no matter °: ress s
By the 9th of Elizabeth her Majceslcillaors.
the
ei
powered, with the advice of six Privy
Lord Chancellor and the Lord Treasurer Osg,°
named), to name the places to which rogues and not
rbeoccedgsnmigthtbe sent. That Act of Parliament didte'
recognise he
poweroeforge
7.the
took the power o f trans. 0 its
Queen as a matter c
rogative. The 4th G
portation entirely out of the hands of the QueeThe
Council, and placed it in the hands of Parliarneet• in
19th George 111. revived the power of the Queeeoint
Council, but in a very limited manner. The next arose
which elucidated the question was a debate whiTk;
when the independence of America shut the -rtr of
field fur transportation; and when 5 Tait nu°3""cor
felons had accumulated in this country it became en-used
nary to send them away. The chief place then Prernisce
was Sierra Leone. Mr. Burke objected to such eritlif
being fixed upon, stating that it was an tobe
"„,-,rsi
ate,
climate, and that there was no law for trausporlVG
Majesty's subjects, however criminal to such e the
The
24th George 111. gave the power of choosteh be
places to which particular lists of persons Acbtlylatbe
sent, those lists being presented to her Pitsi,estic.eword°
judge. Then came the .o^th George 111., Oa a"- -0(10
the present Transportation Act, under wale-,4) 'lo°
h the
order was made (the sth Geor e crhe;
PrieY
Council,
Act gave the Queen, with the gudvice c'
not only the power to name tho I;en
to „eight he ether which particular prisoners
but any place to which, at any time, any felon °bre
person under sentence of transportation loightssrereite
To that power—larger than any granted to the d it to
_A
previously—he greatly objected, and believe: be 17,
mod obnoxious to the colonies, He though'', the Pr ,t
shown that there were no real reasons against sod thus
position which he now submitted to the 110°,,de'nge. ,es
sufficient reasons existed for providing e"— ebaev
s.
would appeal to the House whether there suddee,t dies
of penal stations had not been productive of 0115 hotofresr
trous effect; ? Instead of going into a geeer,eld r,e,„A.
of such changes to prove that assertion, bee",„t
th
to the recent transactions at the Cape, as . 4 sYs t 4
tration of the worst feature of the change -conslcb,
In 1848, in consequence of the,accumulationn°ciing
in England, a new system was adepted, I.ace celoculit
highest honour on those who advised it. T" to Se A
'on ece
Secretary thought of reviving transportatl ope
South Wales. Van Diemen's Land was ahvhe stir
again ; but a new place was looked fur, and 0001,
posed the Noble Lord fixed upon the Car. esistsoe
that such a quiet settlement would not make alliercspe, bile
Lord Grey sent out a communication to th _ resesfe
news having arrived that it was necessary tuati yetibtris
certain prisoners from Bermuda, Lord Grey
a° t° do
for reflection, and, without waiting for an pooled'
letter, ordered 300 prisoners to be sent freth
ncowls
to the Cape. He thought the resistance of thubtot it Wye
the colony redounded greatly to their honour_uid prod°
attended with this disastrous result—that it rt'llieg to
a lesson to other colonies that they bad o';',or evils'
by
but resist in the same manner to escape sitel sessecixs-
(Hear, hear.) He considered the power P°s hese "I
t s
the Colonial Secretary to be the source of a oerer ose
asters, for the temptation to exercise such %Pe eiettiote
too strong to be resisted. He considered that t progarty
which he now proposed would, in every wetY;oo9lliottll
and put upon a better footing the syegem Derr' 00 at
tion. It would take from her Majesty A fto tall that
power, it would remove the Colonial Seergeeing ;ad
under the power of the Home Secretary. „esitiP°' -in
every reason existed in favour of the Pro 10 be folio
none agrinst it, he thought no time ougbswhicb for
repealing that part a the sth Geo. IV., t° - toolle°
referred. The Hot% Member concluded hi ot&
t
leave to bring in his Bill. be titles
The motion having been seconded, 813- bad
put, goober be
Sir G. GREY said, that after the nett* ortetiel3'ber
adverted to the difficulties attending transP
did not exactly understand the course the Nos
Melt wu Wet'
was now taking in proposing a measure w thet so the
crease the embarrassment already felt on
_„ion of _ 01
As he (Sir G. Grey) understood the prortshieb elatisotho
Hon. liember, it was simply to rePea_eting that ther
transportation in the sth George IT-, erg long or.° 0.
Crown may appoint a place to which .'::.•tatee 100,
offenders may be sent. Now there were l`fnsportedges,
istence which prescribed the sentence of iu
to theJ- t the
in some instances is ith a certain discretiondisraja Aid to
but in other cases without that
must he enteoffroo
cooling assizes no doubt prisoners e Gat' ed
transportation, and he would ask if tb
could be cirri lace.
bad considered how these sentences p
own to aPY' t poOu
into effect if the power of the Cr ? 'The ion-
fur their transportation was taken away
the pc.avar'osof
under
had been exercised by the Crown _ _tor
(erred by Act of Parliament ever sincete !ftry_, the ,butii_.4
transportation was known to the statu.nut,, w__`:nis
ye nt
--ever since it had been the main ttinsiltia 0400711-0
for serious crimes. The Hon. Gentleman
hole ease with
rested Ids whole( Diver s
to the Cede, and had s , e ca( po
tic avUs
recent occurrences and the despo Wei) ear'
Now be so,r • . Gov
respect to that colony. , that too cape
towards the close of the last session, u the
went never intended to force convicts.r
and as soon as the ship arrived and Set orderel the
the determination of the colonists, sh "sitotione
and the convicts were not lauded. Theued th
o`itt by
military convicts was sufficiently exPlei rot sent osed
spondeuce before the House. They weree prer,ott
virtue of any power which the Hon. A.l' /1 hltd_tol
to repeal, but by virtue of the Mutiny r-",-.oett $ r„,,„
said that it was intended to make the tcgaTiOP
0919Py, WO, did kilo, that Wu"

di

ler sentence f transportation we-e sent to a place, the,
therefore, it became a peNal settlement. There were
e`'nviots, for instance. at Gibraltar, which could not he
considered as a penal settlement. But the repeal of the
c,iao,e, proposed by the Hoe. Member would enable the
uovernment to send convicts t the C:•pe, or any ether
e°l"Y, just the same as to Woolwich, Portland, or any
°s'er Place t , which convicts were sent for hard labour,
until they could be otherwise provided for. If n die-
Puiition existed to exercise this ponce despoaticy ally,
the colonists had the power of counteracting it,
for their complaints were easily made known in this
takeetr.Y. He believed the reped of this power would
away the means of enforcing tho sentvnce of trans-
Perfekt' at this reoineet, and would not eficet the ob-
Jett °F the Hot). Gentleman, or protest the colonists from
couviets being sent out. And under what circumstances
Were convicti sent abroad? If transportation was to h.
taaintained at all, it was the general opinion that the
(::cOnvicts should be dispersed as widely es possible, in
}(ll.er to prevent that accumulation of vice and iniquity
b bud resulted from the aggregation of large flam-
ers in 4,angs on üblic woik:. It' tho present Act
ihould be el e iledP, there would be ne alternative but to
gae,rl,4 th' m iu masses, and keep them to work in masses,
w';'`', on the expiration of their sentences they would,
itnoet _
Gen any reformatory discipline, be dispersed as free
Gen throughout the colonies.—(hear, hear.) The Hon.
phieptideman f,,,.ei .
Y a muted that the Colonial•office was
der great difficulties. He wished to impress on
it,etukalninhers the necessity of not trifling with the sub-
which araway .the
by into"
-- quarter sessions they were clamorous f pass-
tlg' "(I which they desired to see carried out, in order
irPlieve the comities from the cost of their care and
hadiliktenanee• Transportation to Van Diemen's Land
blt-t'ett suspended by the late Government, and the
_ere-U",,,rl4.,nits had followed that step. It had lately been
bes--eu in very tnoderate numbers, but increased num-
471stharl been sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar. Now,
had been poing on at home ? In England the
184.1rnher had not increased. The number transported in
I.4l:fisas 3.357; in 1848, 3,296; and in 1849 the number
A -'olit 500 less, partly owing to the operation of the
"'et LI last session, and partly owing to the increased
teocrai rep of the people. What was the case with respect
re,tns
la , ? The sentence of transportation for larceny
Isar "c'esate numbers was one of the stronge-t groundsin
113448ession for lessening the punishment. In Ireland
IZ,the nutnber transported was 700 ; in 1845, 627 ;
1r4117)6;* 708 ; in 1847 (during which transportation to
erettsTid3lieles Land was suspended) the number had in-
tad to 2,208 ;in 1848, the number was 2,729 ;
i‘stl
i 1849, it am ounted to 3,039. There could be
et% lot that offences in Ireland had greatly ins
rout Id6u, and although some of the sentences were coin-
it became necessary to visit many of them
or", 84e/ere punishment, in order that it might not. go
effs-ta: that the sentences would not be carried into
liert conduct of many of the convicts sent to
he C,Tis entitled them to considerable indulgence, andi
ble itettlerl as
neycd that a number of them would prove as va u-
many of the emigrants who had gone
rvrsti"lu to that country, for the crimes were not of
able 10 "%lens character. It might, perhaps, be des.ir-
Parti;,teuuce the number of classes of offences for which
Parii„mtre liable to be transported; but so long as
effects The
ePt up this punishment, they ought to
overnment of the power of carrying it into
else e;Ron. Gentleman had spoken of the power
When, ii;erc.ised despotically by the Colonial. Minister,
Isbetin Point of fact, he never exercised it without the
hp.o„ 0,11 °I other members of the Government.. Looking
disehrte motion as one which would tenfold increase the
into elf( of (tarrying the sentence of transportation
se-1.-nee% end which would fetter the discretion of the
tie tio-t4ent in dealing with the subject, he trusted
ateruele would not adopt the suggestion of the Hon.
eitIPA • MOL
the ESWORTH supported the motion, be-
-404 Colonial-office had proved itself not well qua-
who kto exercise the power of which his Hon. Friend
it, Tgad brought forward the subject sought to deprive
vtlleiln, Proof of this position, he had only to refer to
tll, Thad taken place at the Cape. It appeared that on
% Circa of August, 1848, the Colonial Secre:ary sent
kepiu to several of our colonies, offering to send
stmin at certain description of convicts as a boon, but
tolol taut no such convicts would be sent unless the
Cs nista expressed their approval of the offer. At the
tist .84 a Smith brought the subject before the Le-
Viett"tve Council, and pledged his word that no con-
Cf thW°tlld be sent unless approved of by the majority
iriiv colonists ; but the Colonial Secretary, before
top:ttig for an answer to his dispatch, resolved
Plotjell(' out to the colony a certain number of
The Colonial Secretary, therefore, cora-
teteviolated the promise he had made, and the
nt violated
been that the colonists had virtually rebelled.
the 6(31114 net help regarding what had happened
.at
Cape
forait
sfepire as source of great danger to our colonial
proclaimed to them that they had
tV° use it
and resist in ordir to rid themselves
tet! 3'rannY of. the Colonial-office. He had presented
to
nniitsitou f
4°lu New South Wales, signed by
13 that c% 6,000
;lot,o,t„lng their intention to resist transportation
t°lllcl t and their belief that, if persevered in it
tad this "d to
tet
e 3 cod to the connexion between the colony
That petition had been adopted before t, Pld have heard of the successful issue of the
ttltgtt
n 0 at
the Cape. He could not conceive how any
tlluti% right feeling could ever consent to the colony in
testi;. resided being converted into a convict settle-
d reference to the report of the Transportation
ilst7ittee would show the evil effects which traneporta-
-111%44 produced in New South Wales and Van
,
tae
Land. After the fearful amount of crime which
ate cbihrt disclosed, it was not matter of surprise that
'Aos°„ltlsta should hold the transportation system in
lets lialce- The Right Hon. Baronet the Home &ere-
earr-iitiNd the present motion would create difficulties
tar:oi it out sentences of transpor aio . If he (Sir
',ion lei-worth) had no. other revson tor supporting the
et" kQ should do it upon that ground alone, us he
banxious to abolish transportation. This
iftr- 'ad "11make the colonies the cesspools
vs 0. no right to
—(llear.)
1091,48„-k eTOR'NEY-GENERAL remarked that the
~. the Bar I,
th Member for Southwark had not spoken
" lue •• e em They were not at
4544 stion btfore the House.
t ,
It, NI% led on to consider either the question of the
or transportation or of the conduct of the. G0t.441111t
t.441111t towarda the Cape. The question for discus-
F,Picrist' vihether they should take from the Crown. then
10,ilii0„Pclaessed of selecting places within its own
R to which convicts might be transported. If
ti:):L(1 l n° better ground for the motion than that it
uotC" to the abolition of transportation,. he hoped.
t se w
the ,euld pause before consenting to it. But, in
Itti,4l,oippor • Gentleman who had brought it forward
1114-• esB his object to be the abolition of transpord-
NS.,i IS object was to repeal the sth Geo. IV., and
'r provisions of the 6th Geo. IV., which
her Majesty, with the advice of the Privy
os, sto
111."ir aPPoint places within the dominions of. the.
41 th
34 t. „.e transportation of felons an-I other or.im. t-
k onourable Gentleman had made no provision
ljjee :ro criminals should be sent provided that
141' I:ite.trie abolished. The simple object of the
tttellottetli`ellasn was to take away from the Crown
tore Po~tati °f fixing, by order in Council, places of
If the Hon. Gentleman did not mean
4,ll„tt)e hil„e whole of the Acts, the Crown would still
Itot,-`,Pl4,w'er of sending convicts to the hulks and
bee,l) bet if he did mean to repeal them, what
,I.)tt of the reformatory establishments at
t4%i`te obi•-'4u Parkhurst? If the repeal of the statutes
`tt ;'vieli'te;et of the motion, then he objected to it as a
, %VII ii,'°ll of the prerogative of the Crown, for
"1it1e1,4141,-"Il Was not in the first instance a statutory
tl R" nt a conditional commutation of the sen-
thst.k,it 'ltt,t4. The Crown had always had the power
`” 4 t-tch Place f transportation. It was in cense-
hGsrtetre'e Collusions that took place between the
kei Nit 13 4114 their masters that the statute was passed.
I,t,ls:itstlie,,ettv). He could well understand that when the
I,NI of t7t,well abused the Crown should have claimed
the
Dte": Legislature, but it did not therefore follow
`titl 'l4lll L°Reitive ad ceased to exist. The 24th Geo.
111% the 5,e4 the h Crownto fix the place of transportation,
Qtlt 4,4?o:'`QG". gave the same power. Suppose
emltl "Woman obtained leave to introduce his
Propose to ask the House to fix some
&Al es% Penal settlements, or did he suppose it
44_ tit to the dutY of the Government, in the first place,
s't'a ;:qt ell•iisitssent of the colonists? The disadvantagesd
ate4,4ter course were evident. If a statutec an
imperfect information, making the Bp
%Peittrlet, thv_ot, and if convicts had been sent out in
lis!tetlt,t,l,tehtt; Passive resistance. lately offered at the
to„!ipbbk to been rebellion.—(flear, hear.) His
4s' gu,l'a Motion were insuperable. Hon. Mem-
-1,11144 111:,-`` to abolish transportation might vote
APttr;_c)o,eurred with his Right Hon. Friend the
hit tc.,'„lii(jr,,), and should resist themotion.—(llear.)
14;t1IN' biluftßY agreed with the Attorney-General
vto!kieetichl'ot was not the time to discuss whether
44-.1 b,tt, 4441-should be abolished or not. He was not
Sfp It that the prerogative of the Crown
kes • NIA 'eet
4441, f tts, eu by the motion.
),the ftt r, 4741 exile were entirely statutable punish-
It4)1-s";tiet,ttr.er4itratr were condemned to death, the Crown
ur4t,lonv,, ye of commuting the sentence, but that
ottikti 14trod 411% a sentence of transportation. Exile
Dtte.4°,,ll bY th.tieed Chart he 39th Elizabeth, and trans-
OPOsi."rtat. 18th es 11., which gave a power
ti;ict the -tni°ll .to America. His. Hon. Friend who
osu 7by go did not intend it should interfere
4404 „Pik bile tiv .
~_es
..._,.cetsion of the Council, or that
tt7lYAlit"t "11.11 h transportation had. been directed
toe Paten Atilltio places of transportation till specin
foreA, by Parliament. I; would always be
eka e ut he h ants:meat to appoint new penal settle-
h,y°l4ivt 91,a they would be cautious and not in-
„l4l Thou Population on young and uncontaminated
'4,aiutlti-6- rm" h 0 dida not concur in all, that
tot, ,PO, IP the Hon. Gentleman who had made
4',444,W ,3-aelt it is duty to give it his support.
Ittreetr titte he could not support the motion. Abt
tl:caN juni6e: thought his Hon. Friend would
the e
te:l4-111,- the que`:t; in directing the attention of
414" N bsi "of transportation, unless -rover
vril°4lll t Itig the 't b tore them. If Govern-
Csrh°lll';nl4(''°os-iad.(o7. up the qutet'stioen, the house might very
Itt su eareyin s Purloin-lent could do to aid the
I,llll4,t,strttint
.t.Ri out the sentence of transportation, or
di sth 'on of triz )uld in tohis respect be imposed on the
t:etett ths-
8. row. n. A
ist present the question was,
it %11. utY. tkeould that which would fetter the
art' of out Goy do
Pos. .in in, it, who were required by law.
44, '4ti utterable in.tances the sentence or
lf)ti NUdoors, "4 which could only be effected by Go-
th;ng what it could to make a proper distribu-
st,),. mey_r, Person, _
„„Lxaertil f) sentenced. He thought the
tinit"uen he arusu pl:tt the question on too high
• ale tru Ghat uerted it to be on
rey t„, -,hen e of prerogative.
.It
d
hsiNtt owneo .11 xercnsing its best prerogative
e of the Crown;
condition on which
ittut,:kutred 4"(1 111 that sense transportation might
but transpor-
-634 twons"itftncrallY understood, had for many
"eg " S punishment imposed by