The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-06 00:00:00

THE BULLION TRADE.

In answer toaquestion from Mr. CAYLEY.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was quite impossible to
give an accunt6 account- of the exports of bullion, as
so much of it was carried on through private hands.
SAVINGS' BANKS—POSTPONEMENT OF THE
CHANCELLOR OF, THE EXCHEQUER'S
MOTION.

Sir G. 611EY said that his Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer was unable, from indispo-
sit'on, to bring forward Lt.-night his motion for the ap-
pointment of a Select Committee on Savings' Banks, and
had eeqnested him to postpone it until Monday.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
Mr. HORSMAN then rose to move that a Commit-
tee of this House, to which was entrusted an inquiry
into the composition and management of the Ecclesias-
tical Commission, having recommended the appointment
of three paid commissioners for the management of the
property under the commission, it is expedient that
effect be given to that recommendation." He said that
from the nature ef the Committee, which was appointed last
year, he had expect3d that the recommendations which
they would send forth would be without bias or prejudice,
but he regretted to say that he had been deceived. The
events of every succeeding day proved more and
more the necessity which existed for placing the
temporalities of the Church in safer hands.
He was, therefore, compelled, however reluctantly, once
more to call the attention of the Home to the subject.
It was unnecessary I,r him to state what the Ecclesiasti-
cal Commission was, ar, unfortunatkly, they were all ac-
quainted with its character and proceedings. They knew
it to be a very powerful body, exercising most important
functions, and enjoying the administration of vast funds.
They knew there was herdly a county in the courery
where it did not exercise control over estates, or a parish
where its influence, for good or evil, was nut felt. Indeed,
as regards the temporalities of the Church, it wie:ds
more power than had be.,a possessed by any body since
the Reformation. Then, did it not become PArliament to
keep a vigilant eye upon its movements, so as to take pre-
cautions against possible abuses. It could not be denied that
the duties of the Commission cast additional Imrtios *cm

------------- ,
our ecclesiastical dignitaries, whose shoulders were erlub
able to bear them. Their spiritual duties vie r° balln
'
dent to cccupy the whole of their time and at!enOo
and when, therefore, they proceeded to had thenaselvi'
t! ,
with otter dufea et' an entirely opposite charae!er,,
was manifest that one set of duties must be ireperfeet'Y
discharged. Therefore it was a matter of iniportaece,
iedecd of reeessity, that a choice should be made between
these two incompatible duties as as a conviction wss gaii'
lag ground in the public mind that the more our eee 0:
2irsitical dignitaries confined themselves to the meddled
duties of the Church, and the less
with its secular concerns, the betterwould
theb
Another arty le
that whilst the cause uhf. ,
complaint is net so much that eve have not Wilton'
enough, as that those we have were not lobo tie
their right vocatior, and that they are in Loud° pee
voting themselves to the administration of '
ralitiee in Whitehall to the manifest neglect..„, i
of spiritualities in their more appropriate sPher •
e Be
lt was obvious that that deficiency would Lever b
t,st
cepted by Parliament as an argument for supPlYing two
deficiency out of the Church's funds. Then theio 0
another party, and he himself belonged to thatePetirthe '
tl-ey inedd.le:
who took still higher onerous ores
said whetuee tbf,
duties were too onerous or too light',
list.
pecuniary] concerns of our Church Bstnentbee
ment involving the management, among sto the
things, of distant estates, were altogether alienot ,
" 11'1
vocation of ecclesiastics.—(Cheers.) It waern 9 °coca-
bishop's vocation to be " a server of tablet. were
tion wet of a higher order, and the calls on his ti
Id
more sacred and more imperative, and he shotilatt
was
fto other men the intricacies of secular biliiilleSF. i6_4o,
er him to be familiar with the concerns of every Priog ~
cognizant of the character of every clergy man, suds his
all. wants by his energy, controlling all shwa; his • ea. .
vigilance, encouraging all thct was good bY niong
.1
his people, spreading around pimrpl was for him to live as a
father a here
an stoSol) 10 ,
of love, and reverence, and religior. IT; of
its earliest days, was the Church's nal stick -
whit a Christian bishop ought to he' et? than
he wished to see her practice again. ---,tete(' to
was a third and mote numerous party who Pei" .. iir. •
the Ecclesiastical Commission, and said that ig iv7d.r.
competent to discharge the duties that iLhorieuto the '
tilcen to discharge, and to the enormous s',-r- nag'
Church's re; en es which had resulted from its me,,sions ~
ment. It would appear, then, that from the. esPred- been ..
which had been used, and from the protest wheh,:blie gied
entered, as well as the expressions which had then
against the continuance of a system that an
Pe„0"ogh" '
with nothing but evil, that there W 33 no body tuteiejsy
out the country more opposed than the ce cf
of
the Church of England to a continua?
theta
their hierarchy in a position which piseead their
so invidiously before the people '!they wish e whin,
diocesans to be removed from this board of consul
either
because they felt that their resence there was liit teal
creditable to them nor beneficial to themselves* oottro '
owe or of 'raj el
been hoped that either a sense f • •
c justice
se les,see , ,y
would have induced these members of the Paee' ;Og WI
tamedw thatoLi l
would.
produceat each on fo
itsthusac
such
Commission to have been sensible of their dni'll'utege
et
tp talentsrtian lcoinpctlosem;
thet..was at
that no sense of justice, no influence of prineiPle'oa test
all likely to alter their fature line of conduct!, %roils
the only remedy that could possibly be adoPte°lbieve9 .)
so loudly and justly complained ef, and so tn,re,c Nobel
in their tendency, was to compel the:seserat 'Thsioe% •
embouiutttl
deidt 1
ntWoosyse theirn
es
so
30
es
or,
~.:
of the bench of bishops to retire from the Cont.ece as
and he could only, therefore, appeal to the innil estair -'•
intellect of that House. This Commission ant it eats
ltihsebed in 1836, or rather he ought to say t,he" 001
result of Commissions previouslY cled•
Oven iti
by which its constitution had been roc° toe
Consisting only of thirteen, the Commission eoishop
course of time to give great diseatisfac:ion. Tb,f,f,,etien .
of London assigned as a reason, for this dissabt" bee to
that there was not in the beard a sufficient nletsjoite
represent the Episcopal Bench. The nePasiluterjoissinee
however, was son- eavhat differert. The lea-f solnv '
was charged with matters that were reetteeb itai
consequence not only to the interests of the v'il. A"
general, but of the Bench of Bishops an vie ' Vl* '
, f Ws 0
matters connected with the incomes sa wog f
with the building of r 'slam, the nel.s the
estates, and many little things releting ;ere 0
convenience and comforts of the bisheP9 the
the hands of the Commission.A °eat ori
or
'deed • 11,
Commission
came at last to be copal 300
of the great prizes of the Church, and a violent It their
was get tip by the excluded bishops agiat coellne
re thrall, whom they called monopolists ; an° 410'0'
of time the doors a No. 5. Whitehall, we jeoft
open, and in rushed the whole Episcopal Ben no ' get;
it was that the deans nod canons did, °wader'
in too had always boon a matter 0t e joy 10.;
The Commission consisted originally of nig"' been isle,
and five ecclesiastics, but the number had since
„m a ,the-
crewed to 29 ecclesiastics and'eight laymen; -tersl
had been the result of their proceedings? Poor Pgoollo pi"
left half starving, and poor congregations were etsessnre,-8
go untaught, while vast sums of the Church 'e "i. v-
or 0
were spent in palaces and luxuries. of 01
bishops. The alteration in the onstitutel' era
c , wha_AA.
Commission had resulted in no gooa
efoun" a
ea'
and •
as if to render confusion worse eaffi.saiona-or
they had no permanent chairman. The Coht-elhairtil;o
present who was highest in rank occupied tutied VI
it happened that when a junior bishop pros ice we' t()
hardly warm in his seat before he had tog.,,test..tirs
a senior bishor, and thus a series air, ober(
Lions took place until the Archbishop °f. 'fair cf tiel
mtbande his appearance, and jumped over the with ssocb 0
rest. Now, he would like to know, wo'eoo inisli:e-
systtem as this, how the business of the vs- eta; eVs.:
couldof be properly carried on? Could the Pre-eper-1.
to'
h that House, for instance, prosper,
if the jied • ~• ,
ad no fixity of tenure,
and was e if to boy
leave his seat every few minutes? But, as
...." wen to'
the matter worse, a number of select CO 0. „,. •
been appointed, every one of which was coree'doe7
greater number of members , than theha-eoate a
whichi formed the average attendances of teeitk; tlitij
ut this was only the beginning of the sib
b;
further they went the mole absurd they fea„ 00,6;0
readym he had observed that, in conducting "1 jettets,te,
Members of the House, parties with persene ojoteuwe
were strictly excluded from the Committee aPP. aeill •
eeratie ,„,este.
make the
inquiry,
but this was the donee wove ot
of his Hon. Friend pear demoralised tbe Member for gvet .
ntho such innovation had the proseevibiot
the
.Ecclesiastical CoMmissioners. With thej:: esPec,,i Pt):
any bishop had an interest in the matter hto^-,t On iir
he nt-e teS°
summoned on the committee '
, and when d 0 0'
~ if ;di
deliberations he was permitted to speak a- ominis" tit
as much as though' he were a member of the eosoOP to
But not only was that so, but every of thas
one , ,,,,,
Bench may attend any committee,tereek an u onto,
eaeln'' I'
fact at any time they could swamp the othereir Tote! i'
of the committee by the number of th toenth:
--(Hear' hear.) li had • a sonie hie ' e
Ile directed 0 n 511
deliberation to it, but he had never bee
ao,
realise for himself the advantage f a Ost • °e°l.
o such. hey bele' tt
Bishop of St.
Asaph told them that a tunr;to roiejot
versant with the subject to be inquired Paate oF'siolel
best party. to give information and forlu,ioion 'he
upon it, while the seer t the Cool'-' tioo ,
e ary to ques 0„
them that any bishop
took up whatever eallY at
had a mind to, and as he Prncl'in teitt.tee
pressed it, "ho worked it h Vl° a' ring a
through ; airec• took
So that,
whenever
there was any quest.° jesbo_P the
interest of any particular bishopric, the a ir the
it and worked it through in every nell.whe! the '
word. In the palmy days of TorYin„lic:,toef Or
working-through system was well unuece theooll
workings-through could not surpass thus a sPbear
clesiastical Commission, Under such to jer'
the House would not be surpr4e'vot 10%-laroi:
that the business of the Commission is I.- be 9.00°.•
of
frly well transacted, but it could nnsbitjoodi ,e),'
the revelations of carelessness, Peca ... 19
t'.
waste which the evidence exhibited
sold (lei
What did the House think cf estates being be Coot
an y valuation being taken or authorised bY twitboll'arest'
sion,n or of large estates being bough etent retort;
imp.
toisow toe,
d ray precautions of a survey, or of
bei executed without the architect of the CaeiseolSitlad
supplyingandcfthem, suns eyors being employed without 011/ e de
wl cetre tees'
tion cf the remuneration they were to re they
sent JP*
consequence had been that they charged an, 'la 0,460
and the taxation of a bill which the sobei The '''3e
some years ago still remained unfinished. • 105 aa'
le nsis ~ haeo,
committed to their charge were gro.oee , theee '1" •
The Commission met once a weelc, butt oe-er,oew 011
much to do as could well cccupy them for a f",,, t Wellto
Bishop of London stated that the secretarY `'-ft is tilir
party who know anything about its affairs. ' tlith #eo°
tber •
know that the Board had a secretary, or rn looP or"
terthe • h
secretary had a board of commissioners unee op ento
in fact, did everything. It was he who drrieoitletjoge
dory in council. Did any one require an Lee the leraraellr
the commissioners, it was ho who arrangeue, I'a bon 0,110‘;
Was it required to mystify or banioaz,'`,,eas "WO
With regard to the incomes of the bishoes, it ~ens tor ,
"cooked up the accounts." When any IP ivb° Ps-cbje,
to be made in the House of Lords, it wan lien tb,e, was'
ted the Archbishop of Canterbury, and !ye- eese Pa (oo ors
of the Commission came before that ite: ee'qut tie:
who supplied the Primo Minister with t"'" f 0 -st. h-
formation. Ile never gave notice ° OP thes
upon the subject in that linanneb in the
did not see the usual parsgrarry to the
the'
newspapers. " Yesterday the sem-ctn.:ow vita., eta
Neck siastical Commission had a long joterrresoenoed.
First Lord of the Treasury, at his of•fictoe renl, tit°,
Downing-street."—(Laughter.) It bad -od fopr thy,
that the history of uatiohs might be I°°'` the
history of their eminent men, and is Bienh.„ol tact' iois
history of the Commission might be knawilf fhe C°- titil
ceedings of their secretary. The affeirs 0 the 0011,00
sion spread over all parts e f the country i eneeieroo
did all. He had to select persons for ell Tio bay ov
when anything was to be done, and he aPP4 gus i 0
relations. It was thought that Mr. inig"tit busieeotiV,
gaged the Commission in law in order to P__,,,areett Ter"
the hands e f his brother. Ile went to tilt:37oooy 'iity.
geuted.his brother acted as solicitor, sad cati6el;at htl;
ties, with his wig on, steed as counsel in ticion teat ,
would ask, was there any truth in the fort he belle, nt4
plunged the Commission into litigation
_as toot: for
his relatives? He was as fortunate ash ~wet, woulo:‘o eed
found friends where he little thought L' /
t ..‘eo to
Deo occie,
up. When be came before the Coen it''
t° beer ho Deir3,
entitled, they were much surprised.
_, 11143 7.A060.,
teas not a servant during pleasure, 131,1_1e0 jet'; Dote"
his appointment for life. A Bill had dials ao,teo f 9;
for remodelling the revenues of the cattle" , relent, 1 7
.00 or I,o'
lcosiate churches, which bad no convex n, ._Ol,
La
the scerc:ary of the Ecelesiattical CoLe,"':_oca is Pigibi Vop
some chance or other a clause was introo_uf
.r.,00.,i9b
.0,
sta,_ eof its progress through the Ilousf,,u The Pee et
made the secretary's appointment for ine'd;a tbo n e ':
vs IS
•ither ^ 19' 1
of London knew nothing about it, De to the s''tl s
tars, and it remained a profound secreet dered ilinr;oitt I
moment who was the kind friend who r another I fitePs
service.—(Hear.) Ile now came ho
91 tAt. -
which would. meke every jagir .9A $10) - - . •

I

I

M 1

letabsr for moatrose (;:ir. flume) stand on end—(A.
~Ilteli)--1. ha was w t t'ee man he used to be. Ill''
Supt to‘ls nos'ergnse ire e of the iinmense SLIMS of
*llich they srere ih ith. -i;ed trustees. From 1335 to
ltBl34(ls,itifiery
elca,tino accounts,° at-
° t 11 eyr)ll,::di ril 1,31 audio, i ..
I, the 1 'pi rtill.i'Lle St:
,(laccount of lii se( Prt":-es wlere-d out by his elliclae"-
-I'ar) ne I;aaereliarj:' ant
rho evidence of the seers.-
ArY
ininslf• Thteret wraTno supervieion or control
1 anY Patty whatevcr. If any balance rernein . t,, it
tire-el Pl4l into Lbe aceouet of the Cominissi ir.
forlei:iit
re never was sow belaece to speak of. The eex,, . Y
or the ,
:_ ,oeretary and the extravagance of the. Commis-
Zen took good ease of that. me secretary did whatdke.
Commis-
fl and the funds which paseel into his. handsr.,. !I. &Mount to nineh leas then a million sterling. 1 h .t l'mission 8 e
.B.y stem till ISIS, and. no thanks to the Cam-
e es, wilt it del not continue so. An asc.iden,t led,to.
lie;eadn,lo, • The Honourable Member for Patsies , he be -
u ._4 oreug,ht under the notice of the authorities, that
shz..o Me of the secretary figured in a railway hat of
.1
~ relielders as the holder of shares to the amount of
es°
,0001,ths "-(Elettr, hear.) The Commission then open( df
the resin to the extraordinary and unlimited power of
ceretary over the funds, and some alteration
PIS 4
iese e) e"nsequenee. They should pause for a moment
iteie. raider the injury which this mode of managementon.s-
-o It Led upon the Church. The funds of the C ?In t,,r th°i hw. ere intended to be a great national provision ie.
moteighest
the Purposes, to diminish the ignorance and pr
ese se, •. 1
. . ealtuai improvement of an uncultivated and
thasPidlS-usereaing hitionesltpopulation. The Commission was,
it
a vast social and spiritual rese.t.•
then; nd. it was to be the source, the strength, and
tktion Y:;lf a Mighty movement for the spiritualf reg
en.
ter 0.,_ et the naasses. It was to be the life 0 every
_er-
therr`lte and the soul of every organisation for the I
raigh4tilehe ef the one grand object, namely, that the poor
lea,t have the gospel preached to them. With a kno.w-
-meiho:..4ll this, of the importance of. the enterprise,
those e rest this,
of the work, Parliamerit. entrusted
allat rds to the management of the Commission. halide,'
04 that (commission do? Why, .
is ver the funds to their own subordiri.an7with,out
press, I°R a single cheek against fraud or injureh.ee
sta hear) The House would not be surprised
moat
eons(
Celt from such a mode of doing businessw the
reeae,,_ ns(q•ienees followed—their affairs were ill d
'wred • .much misplaced. The
two f.,_, end their confidence
5e41,44.._,Ll that brought these matters prominently for-
th, erre theset—first, it was notified to the public _
_...
hinter Ittni4jele was bankrupt, sad
sta the Prime .K. 1
111 A Et at Ott
ton
secretary had run away, taking with
liPet. 5t,„41.4e1l Money as he could lay his hands
testi
tpith the circumstances connected with theset,
Ittioesi le Public had as Set a most imrrtec
het, it°rge• Na vacancy had been
.di cared,
Were ;IT'lleh the usual channels of iefsrmation, they
the p' lilted of the deficiency of the funds. Perhaps
iesonh'iree Minister, or one- of the Commission, would
erete-re ;he House whether it was true that the late se-
(le.iiieJ la I left the country? Whether there was na),
tud. aeon in the funds, the amount of that defalcation,
4 whether
nd, a e anY steps had b( ea taken to recover. it?
fiend, agats..V, whether the Ecclesiastical Commission. had
4gen Potha'd t make up the loss to the Church out of their
'Sets st ''ta?-(Elear, and a laugh.) He had taken the
lie ha-cial,•e,tl from evidence taken before the Committee.
of
that Cam of the character of the compositionh_ CO •
110 had
been in/ triraitee of the House of Commons.
'')lrne,:ir_T'd, but he spoke under correction, as he had
s 4„ ,uge hillase:f on the sublect, that the Committeee
44 osieluted on two conditions—that there should b
lihnli7discussieu in the House, and that the members
Iliat be aPproved by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
lata teeanitnittee
was nominat.d by arrangement,
Wes ei"(rY Eeelesiastleal Commissioner in the house
is r aeed a - -
of the Corn-
bletee .f. -Pun it. Of the members te to[i'dtve Eacteeiastical Commissioners were named
eesatin, Uet 4 jillicial inquiry into their own. pro-
of
l „I'''• The bias of the otter members, if they
the
'7,,, was well known to be entirely in favour
tili' -aintl'is'i')n• That Committee conducted anie
tle,llthrouebout two sessions of Parliament.
.Tll y
alai ''''''''-d upon a report condemning the Comm.issioe.,
I?, Proposil,,,
the e .
°Ntier
the, , c appointment of paid. Commissioner..
eet , e Coreniissioners should be paid. was the
es..lll6Corei)e,';4l's verY long diseussicn, and he believed that.a
-scseim,---asee vvith two exc• ptions, was unanimous
.Is.
aietiess'ending tbe appeintment of throe paid Curis_mrni _
kishin LCI take charge ( f the temporalities} of the Co
e'ol .n.' The two Cabinet Ministers, members of the tltrit tee, aireated to this preposition. They thought
11‘asisallitil and responsible Commissioners, in whore
't the i'.l 4nder whose direction the pracecal working
tooje,t, ,
,s, of the Commission should be, was preierf
t„elale°, '",e body as then constituted. The Bishop o
h`' -Gevwe'shed to
would
have one paid Commissioner from
wave ~i vfaneent, but that arrangement
'Lle whole More power to the Bishops, while
leeiticisleie responsibility - of the administration
t
‘vtluai hat been thrown upon the Government. o
re.
atl•ttee,"ea•hve b'll.contrary to the opinion of the.Co ,
, otod ese
Commissioners
fseling was that three paid C
.etta of , y Supersede the _
week for the
14st
Praetieall Episcopal Board, and
eels '4, axinge ugly one day in the . • 91 fa-
''lit!s c-` tCommission, as heretofore, addition,
and
iltope„sur transactiug business would be afforded, . le the ilaroritation given to parties who sought it,
la it,. tlfases of the Commission, in the same manner
As -48 ebitainable in other public
.departments under
ae cents
(S' atteek, °1 of Government. But it was obvious. that
the
-44 ' --Pt w°llld be made to defeat the intention of
.1141 rlllttee• Th
a) tetrad•
! effect of that effort was visible in the
;be aced Into Parliament. The Cmmissioners
alt e t,t,PPeitted were redneed to two, and, one of them
tlst- ": anulinated by Vie Archbishop of Canterbury.
''4ol4'o 4 very different thing freia the concession
At -4' (Mr. liors
sdi,, one ow
_•„
t. . roan) was induced to make, namely,
`';3llil hal'l'Zli. he three el missioners to be appointed
4)04 were 4,iselntatehd by taheaArchbishop of Canterbury.
Estates Committee, the pro;
1,44) th,!°ll,lP°SitiOo op which haich
41 -''' 'lauds of o w bench. Now, could any
would throw more pow(
ale be iiii__
.0. the episcopal
)I(ettt tht•roduced into that Hou.se better calacsukl
eadtedthtae
l'.°lls -" °b4let 1 he Committee? He
•Silsl.t thli ear'l tea tpp rt the Comrnitt e. h Com-
SI ' tillre -44 exeYre'sBda a control, and had triTflede
e'tlite, 'asPeasibilitl'ee V rdianship. They had givenith
''41.1114111111-Itteoosbealitisaftritisona, gueare bankrupt, and could not
Theirw secretary was a bankrupt,.a
I'M' ati ran aZ an'''h
,th,,,lttreenter ,_,,y with their
11;'_'re ho
eo Yeeonsmittee, composed. of their own friends,
money, and, above all, in
~,'' hue inu t been found one single Member to hold up
• re-
• liiTllt feeZieritahtafavone, and they
.had unanimously
en lige in the Commission as essentialan
it.
no
.thitt tilateteAs of the Church. The duty of every m
'lke boner
eutild not be mistaken.
. 't°111(14IF, Prompt declaration They
pwineireen
, calledth at
of their
, t•; sexed, to put an en.d.to.a state of things
-411))1..--(1(oh4to'erst)o the Church and injurious to true re-
teNt's GI.t.Y- said the Hoe. MealLer had stated with
I;rkts'thaecurety than he hal exhibited on forme.. o
ee
tihat Qee„,o°p.ositlon of the Ecclesiastical Commi!si •
'all es esdnission had t ems charged with the administra-
tr ''' lune
0 tit/tad t s' not provided by Act of Parliament, but in-
theposition inern by elect of Parliament. With regard to the
0‘; cif the Commission he had already stated that
4teQ„tii'letilfind.s_'-m1 was too large for the convenient tran.s-
-?s points' ,V= nosiness intrusted to them.
.T,he Commit-
tete a out the defects of the Commission and its )„.,Ir,lll Made some recommendations and amed
'341,,a 'tll had his concurrence, but the Hon.
tbizi :1. not truly
Gentle-
he _Pclo4lti,
(~.. characterised the circumstances. The
tos4 all:tea:1 the body of Commissioners was too large,
h 111411 ee told this naturally led to the irregular per-
ItEls s the Ims'eoss and to the placing in the
tih4tltn e°4l%,hthte 'e.ecr( t try a'greater
eet'rtlltice
_l',? hive' been ashaeraeseafconressidpearaisnigalitihtye
of tthtlr tri
ant;
Tetihe , bhui:iness.t the ease
was prepared to
proposition for an alteration
Ilitre4tiNnistsitionsaofatheeCormapmission, end a 811 l was
"f' vshYted tierce f • that purpose, the object
118 leh was years ago ji•
management in the
too Ms of s to concentrate
,the
.., with
ielaser i‘;'ne Niel commissioner. This Bet met
fielt,h_illt.elC:3lincit.ion in thath House; a Committee was
n since done with it. As
14,
sacis the and n'. thing hadh
Letvii IN gitguin..t.rt (.df "Committee was concerned,
inieal of two conditions having
that
.tteeethl
to._ di. inct e
nit the irobui--shthat there shouldh be no discussion, and
should approve of
ii,e'a,"tlats.—(llea•Phc'fa .Cahlfterwausrythe first time he had
' dish, such conditions.— r)
thee, hear.) He utterly
ekeeptT'd there „..
' foundation for the statement,
sass,, al ts, fertile
, hirlsseer.)--elitelt'imaa,ll4,-)ination_ of the Hon. Gentleman.
n Gentleman then entered
114, trleett%'APlarelautreionanli4o:f tthleiad
the
ident of its being
circumstances of:the appoint-
orttie-acca ttirZitlloutcliscueass'ioann. The unworthy suggestion
1111110, Ilew Gentleman aught not to have been reserve
was resent in the
beee when
,:_io Hon. Member
the4aBPiesonsiao Committee was a
agreed
he not suggest
cid to; and if he
kil, 4t th(, ti Cin the subject, why
1:44(1:' 111( Romrs?—(Eleer.) He was not prepared to
tiotis• If " it
we Member into all the charges he had
Abed the , ere. necessary for the individual vindica-
q,q te, ho,,''lonlusioners that the charges should be re-
t):tls,ile4
.11ati no doubt that would be done hytTtn.l.
theth, I,apt, thlt that Housewho we e more conversant with
I(; Gs he seal. - In the SubstraturnoToee_. whichee
114,14 tel the-ntl:'lnan's charge rested, he
.ne 1 It
hi till4t'l t eernposition of the Commission.
• had seertat° great a share of confidence being placed
kid h':eti 4harY, which confidence, he regretted to say,
was
had,
SlO -la Clo'lll4o. The secretary had left the country,hetv,eett
(11_0/, and ?cations amounted to somewhere beta,
.mmt.
among
tu.11,000/..--(ltear.) Measures had been to,
the W4ltillt throe. 4 to recover as much as possible tvt,o
tev'e eetiesvgh the Secretary of the Trearry! e
rne-
p..,oo c:ale:pring, to ascertain what coldb
pro-
Nottii* It,
e,'' ellt of the secretary's private
it ,A,e had (~taut
not state the amount of defalcation.
f, as 4 Pint it
spy
as high as 70,0001., but he might
e)14" nCer 7 000/though it would probably be
lf, . to
ee_,
~ , ,
tree' 'td 4`;"e ,I 6,000/. 'she Honourable Gentle -
tries,!atiee. s'...r,t‘ed tllat secrecy had been used in this
%41-lete_l,l te,, tritst:-. (Sir G. Grey) had made no conceal-
Wa' ee 44,i after; tra-iy had spoken t ) him on the
C.lerbet 4,,`;ar_nt,‘,
the
never
taken by
mystery. He
the Ecclesiastical
Iled
s' iele,ta, t th steps
..
had been appointed,
//.11(.io df,,,si . -t a Committee
,(, , _
(low,. The
41.).. m,,,,,,.1.;-..L, at was proper well" De
fill 'tilt r `r had said the vacancy had not been. filled
as,i c. v,, ,
t 111) th r, a 1 was that Government did not intend to
14(144',''''r. rpc1;;"•Y a the joint (Alice secretary and
faerfred to by the
Ngr,t4ember ,„' (:)uird''' in the Act re. e
must say he
es it ,ted the
ni,‘._ , be rep( aled, and he
passed,
tt,e, QEtrl I,,,en""..uan heal ever been. so. unadvisedly,, .11
otwenis
teet`t• teetii tr;')thletive of much mischief and i e.
n int-
'.i master wes tided no new aise'•
111'w I lv"Il t li " ' ' • • e•e were
ils iteee -••e place, and the Commission(
did net
di`aetare„ 00 ttsals„fill, rnPun 'the vslancy, as they' did te sn''ic4l of para's. 7 step that would fetter
ts eY, wile Ileutene 11.3 way, however, bound
ue t ' '' he e,free
4 1 lu IL, •JIICLIrrEd to much that had fallen
it'll'irrsta:,4;i'itleo4i't'luntriihsrsaiobele, I,l"lo`.'albsr as to the compositicn
re.u-st be understood to do
tadis'vil eet, Jtceicurrieg in t'lo sarcasm he had harlecee,-„-;ln Vcri gD-el taste. The HAL Member
kaitio
ee__ •seY alluded to the prelates, in his speech,
eJutribut9a tow and the Li -
. ea work Ilethlng but

exhertalions. If thu Idm. Memlee would
takc the treul.lo to acqua'nt birase:f with facts, he would
find that the Archbishop of einLerbary and the Bishop
cf London dial contribuze liberally towaids the cceicsial-
tic al fund.—(ft,nr, hear.) Witt. regard to the ai.pre-
priation of the finds Parliaa-i.nit had descrlh,d the way
is which they IN ere to be apprepriited; aid though the
funds is a/ not in every instance Lave been distributed
with the sounde3t juilgincLt still an immense amount ef
good had been done. no former had been made evailath
to a get at, r extent than had I eel exreted, and by their
te'igious instruction had hen given t ) ra,tuy be-
nig,Lt:d districts.—(tlear.) Tots would bo seen when
Parlia neat obtained a return of the benefices aug-
mented, and the number of clergymen appointed to re v
churches. That much room fir improvemeet still ex-
isted he was net disposed to deny. It was
desirable that funds fir such purposes should
he administered with scrupulous care, and he
filly believed that throughout the Commizsiorers
had been actuated but by one desire, that of effecting as
much good as possible with them.— (Flear, hear.) With
regard to the proceedings in committee, he must correct
some mistakes made by the Hon. Member, whose tone
evidently meant to impugn the fairness cf the composi-
tion cf that committee. The Hon. Gentleman alluded
to five Eccl,siastical Commissioners and two Cabinet
Ministers being en the commit'ee, besides the chairman,
who drew up the report, being a brother of the Pt elate.
No one could assert that any attempt had been made to
prejudice a fair inquiry, or that the unanimous report
was entitled to less value on account of the presence of
those members.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had as-
serted that the committee recommended there should be
a separate board of three Commissioners, to whom was to
be referred all estate funds. Such, however, was not his
impression.' The committee, after lull consideration of
the evidence, concurred in recommending a change in
the composition cf the Commission—that there should
be a separation of powers in the general affairs and in
the management of the property. Tho great feature in
the interests of the Church was to be confined to the
large: body, the management of the funds to the smaller
body. Three paid Commissioners were named, two t,
be nominated by the Crown, and one by the Archbishop
of Canterbury; but these Commissioners were not to
supersele the other Commissioners. They were to give
increased weight to the exertions and views of tee gene-
ral body of the Commissioners by the nature cf their
appointment, which would demand that their whole time
and attention should be given to the affairs of the Com-
mission. The Hon. Gentleman had said tl at he (Sir
G. Grey) concurred in that resolution. He did cer-
tainly. He gave full credit for the suggestion ; and
if ho had been present himself on the ocea
sion he would have supported the motion flr
the appointment c f three paid Commissioners.
The Bill of last year was funded substantially on the
report of that Committee. Tho Hon. Gentleman was
inaccurate as to the Church Estates Commission. It
authorised three Church State Commissioners; one
to be named by the Crown, and ene by the Archbishop
of Canterbury, and he thought there were objections to
placing persons in official situations on such committees
as members or commissioners. He thought that such a
Committee should be a small body, composed only of
those who could give their undivided attention to it.
On further consideration during the last session the
Bill became the subject of modification, a' al his Noble
Friend proposed last te3sion to commit the Bill
pro fornta, with a view to introduce various altera-
tions before the measure should come to the House
for consideration ; and one of those alterations went
to correct what was required, because it reduce I the
committee to the officasl numbers, Now; the Ilan.Gentleman asked the House to anticipate the discussion,
which had much better be taken in the CommiVees on
the Bill, the second reading tf which was fixed fir next
Monday in the House of Lords. He did not exactly
know what might be the position of business in the

House of Lords, but there was every reason to suppose
that the Bill would come down to the Commons in a
reasonable time. If the Hon. Gentleman thought that
there should lie three paid Commissioners receiving
salaries, he might ask the House t.) reject the Bill if it,
did not provide accordingly. But he hoped the House
would not on the pi e;erit occasion do that which would
be almost an unprecedented act, namely, bt.f,i)e a Bill
now in the ether House had come down them, to
plodge themselves that the Bill should not pass that
douse without it retained the clause for re-tainin:z three
paid Commissioners. He thought it was inexpedient to
anticipate a discussion which would most prof erly
ari4e in the Committee. Ho would not say any-
thing in favour of two or three paid Commissioners!,
but whenever the time came the Honourable Gen..

Heenan should have ample opportunity to go into
detail. He asked the House not to discuss now
whether there ought to be two or three paid Commis-
sioners, and here he must be permitted a word or two on
another matter. He was almost ashamed to allude to a
letter which had been written some little time since to
the Hon. Gentleman's constituents at Cockermouth—he
could scarcely condescend to notice it. 13at the Hon.
Gentleman had not thought it expedient to repeat in
that House the personal charge he bad trade of gross
dishonesty, and of a wilful fraud having been practised
upon him in reference to the Bill of last year by him (Sir
G. Grey). The llon. Gentleman had not maintained
the charge in his presence, and therefore he would not
condescend to notice the matter further; but if he had
abstained from doing so it was because, so long as the
words formed part of a column in a newspaper, or were
identified with a newspaper controversy, he did not think
them worth commenting on, because every Hon. Gentle •
man must know that the Hon. Gentleman must have
been drawing largely on his imagination in his descrip-
tion of a scene which never could have taken place in
moving the Bill pro forma. He abstained from sayirg
more, because the Hon. Gentleman had net thought
proper to reiterate what he had asserted.
Mr. HUME thought the country LOA a right t scorn-.
p'ain of the Government f allowing such abuses to
continue so long. It was the duty of the Executive to
have interfered, and his Hon. Pieced was entitled to
credit for persevering in bringing this subject under no-
tice.—(clear, hear.) He hoped the time was coming
when Parliament would exclude the Bishops from having
any share in the administration of the ecclesiastical pro-
perty.—(A laugh.) He (Mr. Hume) felt it his duty
twenty-five years ago to overhaul the Church—(A
laugh)—and no man in the country was more vilified
in consequence, He was proclaimed from altars and
from pulpits us an Atheist—and this was dose by the
clergy to cloak the abuses of the Church.—(Hear, he ar.)
But it had no effect upon him. —(A laugh, and " Hear,
hear.") The House had abolished sinecures in the army
and navy, and why should they continue to allow sine-
cures in the Church?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY agree 1 with the Hon. Member for
Montrose that the House and the country were indebted
to his Hon. Colleague for having brought forward this
subject. He was sorry to see that a soreness exist‘d on
the part of the Right Hen. Gentleman (Sir G. G rey)
on
the subject of a letter which his Hon. Colleague had
written, and he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman
would also be sorry for the expressions he had used.
Lord J. RUSSELL (in a low tone to the Hon. Mem-
ber) —A Cabinet Minister cannot ba sorry for his ex-
pressions.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought, nevertheles3, that the
Right Hon. Gentleman would be sorry for the expres-
sions he had used when lie came to reconsider them. The
Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken of the assertions of
his Hon. Colleague as having no foundation except in
the " fertile imagination" of his Hen. Colleague. Now,
these assertions were both true as 'netters (64 fact, be-
cause it was true that there was no discussion upon the
appointment of ti-e Committee, and it was also true that
the name; were submitted to the Archbishop of Canter-
bury. Ilis Hon. Colleague, he believes', did not intend
to represent that the Committee was an unfair Commit-
tee.—(" Hear," from Mr. Horsmae). It should also be
remembered that his Hon. Colleague had given notice
of his present motion before the Bill was brought
into the other House. He believed that if the public
had known tee large amount of money that was about
to be vested in the Commission it would never have
been appointed. Anything more pernicious than locking
up so great an amount of property, to be managed by
an ecclesiastical commission, could not well he conceived.
The best constituted commission in the world ought net
to have possession of the rest amount of property which
had come into the hands of this Ccernmis3icn. It would
get into its management, or rather into its mismanage-
ment, 8,000,0001. or 9,000,04)0/. of property, and no
commission could give satisfaction in its mode of ad-
ministering such vast estates.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY hoped the Hon. Member
f it Cockermouth would consent to withdraw his motion.
He had always regarded the composition of the Commis-
sion as highly dangerous, and was, from the first, pre-
pared to expect that great mischief would arise from it.
The fact that the secretary was closely connected with
railways, and that he was immovable in a commission
composed of about 50 members, might have led to the
idea that mischief would fellow, and he thought it was
the bounden duty of the House to place the Commission
on a ssfer footinse.
Sir R. H. INGLIS was certainly somewhat surprised to
hear the Hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby)
state that such was the mangement of the Ecclesiastical
Commission that he thought in the course of a few
years it would have under its control property to the
amout of 9,000,0001. or 10,000,0001., for he apprehended
that it the whole ecclesiastical revenue of England in the
hands of laymen, of corporations, end of bishops was
vested in the hands of t'le Commissioners it would not
amount to one -third of that sum.—(Hear.) Ile was not
there to defend the Ecclesiastical Commission; for ever
since its institution he had opposed it, as a great violation
of the rights of property vested in the ecclesiastical body,
and in the hands of individual pastors and rectors of
parishes—vested in them not by the state, not by kings,
but by private individuals. He should be ashamed of
himself, however, if ho could sit in that House and hear
such laeg,uege as he had hoard feom the Hon. Member
for Cockermouth (Mr. Horsrean),
belies itetce it to be un-
substantiated in fact, and not rise to give it a decided
denial. The Hon. Member spoke of the treasures of
the poor having been squandered and exhausted by the
Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He denied the charge as
emphatically as the Hon. Member could make it. The
" treasures of the poor" had not been in the hands of
the Commissioners, and therefore they could not have
squandered and exhausted them. Then the Hon. Gen-
tleman spoke of the bishops having given exhortations
to the laity to contribute ; but did he mean to say that
they gave nothing but their exhortations?— (Hear,
hear.) If he did not mean that, what did he mean ?
(ricer, hear.) His object clearly was that the House and
the country should be left under the impression that the
bishops were reedy enough to take from the pockets of
other reople, but net to dip into their own. Now, be
would state as a fact, his belief of which he had not
ventured to make public before, that, in order to insti-
tute bishopric of Manchester, the Archbishop of
Canterbury, now deceased, the Bishop of London, hap-
pily still preserved in ,if and, he thought, the late
Archbishop of York, cos tributed each a sum whi.di
amounted its the aggregate to 2,5001. a year.—(Hear.)
The Ron. Member had drawn a powerful contrast

green a ptimitive bishDp and ono of the present day;
but perhaps the for. Member would draw a similar con-
trast betwt.ca the laity of a primitive age and of the Ft-
sent. In Apostolic times the primitire Christians setae
example which it would be well for all to follow; but
the lion. Gentleman fjrgot that in the altered const. to-
tion of society, and above all in such a state of things as
exist-,l in E,:gland, they had different ranks or society
and different duties t, perform; and he defied him to
produce a singe year in the history of England since
the first outlines of it; existing constitution began, in
whioli the bishops did not hohl a prominent place as the
first estate of the realm.—(Hear, hear.) lle objected
to these Commissions, because their tendency was to con-
vert the hierarchy of England, and indeed all the hum-
bler clergy of the establishment, into stipendiaries.—
(Hear.) That he knew to be the object of the lion.
Member for Montrose, and he believed it to be the object
also of the Hon. Member for Cockermouth—Arcades
antho ! The lion. Member for Montrose told them that
twenty-five years ago he was the only Church reformer.
Mr. HUME—Not the only one.
Sir R. IL INGLIS—At least almost the only one in
that House. He wished 1-. e was the only Church re-
former now. The Hon. Member for Cockermonth said
the bishops would not withdraw their "grasp" from
the property of the Church. Did he mean to say that
the bishops had not a statutable right to the property
committed to them ?—and did he expect that they
would withdraw their grasp from their own property?
Protesting against the language used by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Cockermoutb, and protesting against the ten-
dency of these measures, he trusted her Majesty's
Ministers would be prepared to resist the present motion,
and that the House would concur in such resistance,
leaving the discussion of the whole question till the Bill
which had been re,f,,rred to came down from the other
House.—(Hear' hear.)
Mr. EVELYN DENISON said, as the House had
done him the hemmr, on his motion, to grant a Committee
to inquire irt o the condition and management of the Ec-
clesiastical Commission, and as the Committee did him
the honour to desire him to draw up the report, he felt
that perhaps ho had failed in his duty in not taking an
earlier opportunity to bring the whole matter before the
House. But it was a case of great difficulty, of greet
magnitude and importance; and as the Government had
consented to take the matter into their own halide,
and adopt the recommendation of the Committee, he
felt he should best accomplish the object he had in
view, and best discharge his duty both to the Committee
and the House, by leaving the Government, which was
really the proper medium for doing so, to carry the mea-
sure through the House.—(Hear, hear.) He endea-
voured in that Committee to conduct the inquiry to the
best of his belief—seat ching for the truth, at the same

time being desirous of not creating unnecessary per-
sonal annoyance to any one.—(Hear, hear.) Arid he
must say, as something had been I aid in the course of
the debate of the Members of the Committee, that he
felt he owed a great obligation to the two Right lion.
Gentlemen opposite for the fairness and candour with
which they entered into the inquiry and the great ser-
vices which they performed on the Committee.—(Hear,
hear.) If he had erred in not bringing this matter for-
ward he had only to say that ho was anxious to save
the time, of the House, and as it was entirely contrary to
his habits to make a speech, merely for the sake of a
epees)), he refrained from doing so, as he believed that
everything that was necessary would he done by Go-
verement —(Hear, hear.) Some questions had been ad
dressed to him by the two Members for Cocker-
mouth. The Honourable Gentleman Who intro-
duced the subject asked him whether, as re-
garded tf e composition of the Committee, a sort of bar-
gain had been made that the subject should be introduced
without discussion; and he also asked him whether
it was not another bargain that the names of the Com-
mittee should be submitted to the Archbishop of Can-
terbury. The Right Hoe. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) had
explained satisfactorily to the House what really was
the state of the case as regarded the first question. So
far as he (Mr. Denison) was concerned, the only bar-
gain he made was, that if they gave him his Committee
as an unopposed motion, he would be content; and he
did not find it necessary to make any observations.—
(Hear, hear.) As to the second question, he would an.
ewer it by giving it the most straightforward contradic-
ton. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Horsman) had come
to him eted asked whether be did not remember some-
thing that took place in the lobby of the House that led
him to make the staterceat that the'names of the Com-
mittee were to be referred to the Archbishop of Canter-
bury. Tho Hon. Gentleman stated positively that some-
thing of that kind had occurred. All he (Mr. Denison)
could say wile, that he would not speak positively, but
that to the best of his recollection nothing of the sort
ever occurred.—(Bear, hear.) He had asked his Noble
Friend at the head of the Government if he would
be so kind as to refresh his recollection as to whether
any reference of the names of the Committee was
to be made to the Archbishop of Canterbury. Be could
state positively that be had no direct communication
with the Archbishop in regard to this Committee. His
Noble Friend said he had positively no communication
with the Archbishop with regard to the names; and,
therefore, what the channel of communication with the
Archbishop was, if such communication there was, he
could not tell.- (hear, hear.) He must say that he
should have thought he was not acting fairly by Hon.
Members if he was to ask any geatleman to enter into a
committee of inquiry which was to be bound by any re-
strictions whatever.—(Hear, hear.) He asked that
House whether in the course of the time he had had a
seat in it there was anything in his conduct that could
lead them to suppose he was capable of acting in such a
manner.—(Cheers.) He would go a step eurther. It
had been said that the gentleman who was chairman of
the Committ :6 was the brother of a prelate. lie would
ask if any gentleman in that House had observed any-
thing in his conduct that could justify such an imputa-
tion as that statement might imply.—(Cheers.) It had
also been said that several members of the Ecclesiastical
Commission had seats in the Committee. Now, in
selecting the members of that Committee he wished to
have 'gentlemen upon it who were cognizant of the sub-
ject' and he was anxious that gentlemen connected with
the EcclesiasticarCommissfon should take part in the
inquiry: Heliad confidence in the strength of his case;
and he would ask if it was not a great deal more satis-
factory to that House, and to the country, that the re-
port should emanate unanimously from a Committee
composed dell sides, and some of them members of the
Commission, than if it had come from a Committee
differently constituted ?—(Hear, hear.) With regard to
the subject which had been' introduced to the notice of
the‘House, he would pursue the course taken by others,
and refrain from entering upon a discussion of it. Ile
must state, however; that any gentleman who diligently
read the inquiry would find many painful ,f acts—many
things that must excite regret. —(le an hear.) It might
be necessary to have a full discussion of the details of the
Bill introduced into the other House when it;came be-
fore them. He would, however, observe, that since the
Committee sat, and since the report was made, two cir-
cuinstances of some importance had occurred. One had
Lent referred to the defalcation of the secre-
tary.—(Hear, hear.) The Commission was so jealous of
the funds cemmittsd to their charge, so scrupulous of
the expenditure of every farthing, that they would not
consent to have a commissioner whose salary would be
aid from the funds of the church. He must say that
he should have thought a commission intrusting such
large sums of money to any individual would have taken
those precautions to procure that proper amount ef
security which was always expected from any persons
into whose hands money was placed.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped, however, that this money of the:Church would
not be lost. There was another point to which he
would le far. A Commission had been issued to inquire
into and report on the better management of Church
property, and the Noble Lord • had told them that the
report of that Commission would be laid on the table of
the Home that evening. He would for a moment assume
that for the better conduct of these matters, for the pro-
per management of the affairs of the Church, some cen-
tral board, to act as an arbitrator and an umpire, should
be :appointed ; and he would ask the Noble Lord
whether it was possible that the Ecclesiestical Com-
mission, as now constituted, could be that board of
reference? He had no hesitation in sayirg, fact
it was impossible.—(Hear, hear.) He must frankly tell
the Noble Lord that if he proposed to have two Com-
missioners inst gad of three, he would, of course, be ready
to hear all the arguments that might be urged, but his
impression was that it was absolutely necessary they
should have that number of Commissioners, and no
fe .ver.— (lie an) Be trusted, in conclusion, that after
what bad occurred on both sides of the House, the Hon.
Gentleman would not think it necessary to ask the House
to divide upon his motion.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MANGLES felt that a hard measure of justice
had been dealt out to his Hon. Friend the Member for
Cockermouth. In one essential respect his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Horsman) had been entirely misunderstood, not
only by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey), but
by his Hon. Friend (Mr. E. Denison), as to the observa-
tions made by his friend (Mr. Horsman) in regard to
the constitution of the Committee whose report they
were considering. He most clearly understood his Hon.
Friend to speak of the constitution of the Committee, not
as at all disparaging it—far from it—but as an argument
a fortiori in support of its own recommendations. His
Hon. Friend said, "Here was a Committee composed of
a great number of the members of the Ecclesiastical
Commission, and of several Ministers of State, and whose
chairman was a brother of a Right Rev. Prelate; if these
Right Hon. and lion. Gentlemen had any prejudices,
they must-be supposed to have a leaning towards the
proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; there-
fore, if such a Committee had come to the conclusion
that it was absolutely necessary that three lay Commis-
sioners should be added to the Ecclesiastical Commission,
it wai'un argument a fortiori (and in that sense only,
and not at all invidiously, was it urged by his Hon.
Friend) that the measure of legislation which the GC-
vernment intended to bring forward should be based
upon that foundation—namely, that there should be
three lay Members on the Ecclesiastical Commission.
The Honourable Member fir the University of Oxford
had dealt somewhat hardly with his Hon. Friend. They
all knew that Hon. Member's affection for the Church,
but he (Mr. Mangles) was certain that there was not a
warmer friend to the. Establishment than the Member
for Cockermouth. They might have different views as
to the test means of promulgating the Gospel, or by
which the Church might be best supported—the Hon.
Baronet might he for giving greater power and greater
wealth to the heads of the Church, while 'his Hon.
Friend, though far from wishing to reduce the heads of
the establishment to a stipendary.condition, might be of
opinion that the best way of steenghtening the establish-
• went was to increase the means, power, and efficiency of
the working clergy of the Church; and he (Mr. Mangles)
very believed that those views had tho support not only
of is great tarter, f
emajority of the
the body cf th e
la 3 men of h
working
e clergy,tesbtau
also of a very le.g
blished Church.
Mr. HORSM AN, in reply, obierved that if the pro-
perty of the Church was nut (as the lion. Baronet,crehnaodt
admitted) the property of the bishops, then he would
ask, whose property was it? If the bishops m

the pr iprieters then they must be trustees. He (Mr.
Horsman) contended that the funds were not the pre-
Forty of the bishops, het of ate Church. The dant.-
ence b t Neon the Honourable Baronet and himself was
shortly this: the Honourable Baronet considered the
bishops to be the masters of the Church, while he (Mr.
Horsman) conside:od them to be its servant=. The Right
lion. Baronet (Sir G. Gicen and the Hon. Member fir
Malt sn (Mr. E. Denison) had shown considerable adroit-
noes in leading the House away from what was really the
point in discussion. The Right Hon. Baronet had most
materially misrepresented what he (Mr. Horsman) had
said as to the character and feelings of the Members
constituting the Commitee, whose recommendation he
was desirous of seeing carried into effect. He assured
the Right Hon. Baronet that he had never said that the
Members of that Committee had entsrel upon their la-
bours with an intention not to do justice; or that they
had motives unfriendly to the Ecclesiastical Commission.
What he said war, that the Committee was composed of
gentlemen of the highest character, the greatest experi-
ence, and cf the most extensive influence in this coun-
try. If he had Be t expressed himself correctly, he
most certainly had intended to say that it would be
impossible to select a Committee against whom it would
be more difficult to find an objection, or whose con-
duct it would be more impossible to impugn. With re-
gard to what had fallen from the Hon. Member for
Melton (e[r. E. Delison) he begged to observe that
as to whether there was an arrangement that the tames
of the Committee should be submitted to the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury, he had made no positive state-
ment on the point in his opening speech; he only said
that he had be ea gives to understand so. There was
only one further observation which bed fallen from the
Right Hon. Baronet upon which he (Mr. Horsman)
wished to say a word. The Right Hoe. Baronet had
said that he (Mr. Horsman) had not ventured to reiterate
the assertions he had made in the letter be had addressed
to his constiteente. There was one good reason why he
had not dote so. He had in that House a public ques-
tion to discuss, and he did not think it right that a
public question should be mixed up with personal mat-
ters. The Right Hon. Gentleman had chargsd him
with having shrank from repeating in that House that
which he had asserted elsewhere. Now, he had been a
Member of the House of Commons for fifteen }ears, and
that man must have been in that House for fifteen years
to very little purpose if he did not know that in ventur-
ing to make such a statement as he had made out of
doors he was doing an act which might be attended with
very serious consequences. He (Mr. Horsman) was
fully aware of that. He knew that by making such a
statement ho placed himself in a position of great
responsibility and of no small peril. He knew that the
very publication of such a statement was very dangerous,
and was likely to place him in a very critical position,
because, in the first instance, it must prejudice every
impartial person against' the man who made such an ac-
cusation; and must enlist the sympathies cf every right-
minded man in favour of those who were so focused.
But, notwithstanding all that—notwithstanding the
knowledge he had cf the responsibility and of the
perils he might incur, he deliberately wrote his state-
ment, and published it as a letter; and on the first day
that Parliament met he gave notice of his present mo-
tion. Having done se, he thought the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet might have taken a different course from that
which he had thought it fit to adopt ; he might have
avoided all allusion to the subject, or he—(Here the
Hon. Member sunk his voice so low that he became
inaudible in the gallery.) But he had no disposition
to make any further remarks upon the subject. The
Right Hon. Baronet having, however, insinuated that
I.e (Mr. Uorsmen) had shrunk from repeating the state-
ment he had made elsewhere, he did nut wish the House
to be under the impression that he was at all disposed to
retract any portion of that statement.—(The Hon. Gen-
Vecnan here made some further observations, but
none of which reached the reporters' gallery.) Ho con-
cluded by saying, that since he bal given notice of his
reolution P, Bill had been introduced in the House of
Lords on the subject, and he was not therefore disposed
t goc
came
with his m
mn
e downfrom
r o motion
the
i otherat present;
House bhuot
swh ho
ue nl d t
bh
ee ques-
tionready
yto give it a full discussior.
Tho motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
tfr. IL DRUMMOND obtained leave to bring in Bill
to facilitate the transfer of real property.
On the motion of Sir R. INGLIS, a standing Com-
mittee of sixteen Members was appointed to assist
the Speaker in the direction of the library, and to whom
should be referred all matters relating thereto.
Air. MOFFATT moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the law relating to bankrupt Members of the
House cf Commons, and to facilitate the recovery of
debts from such Members. The Hon. Member said the
Bill was the same in principle as the one he introduced

last year.
Sir G. GREY had no objection to the introduction of

the Bill; but, after the experience of last 3 ear, he could
not promise the Hon. Member his support.
Leave was then given.
THE ARCTIC EXPEDITION.
Sir R. INGLIS moved for copies of any reports or
statements from the officers employed in the Arctic ex-
peditions, or from any other persons, which have bean
laid be fore the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty
in respect to the resumption of the search for Sir John
Franklin's expedition ; of any plan or plans of search,
whether by ships or boats, up to the present date; copy
or extracts from any correspondence or proceedings of
the Board of Admiralty in relation to the Arctic expe-
dition (since the date of the last return to this House in
1849) ; copies of the orders issued by the Board of Ad-
miralty to Captains Collinson, Kellett, and Moore, and
to Lieutenant Pullen ; and also copy of the instructions
given to Dr. Rae through the Hudson's Bay Com-
pany ; e f any reports made by any officer or officers
employed in the late expeditions and addressed to the
Board of Admiralty ; and of the latest chart of the
Pclar Sea compiled by order of the Board of Admi-
ralty. It Ras not necessary, in making this motion,
that he should quote any precedent in its sup-
port. It was one in respect to which he hoped
he should have the same cordial concurrence of the
House as he experienced in respect to the last motion
he made on the subject. At the same time, though he
was aware that there was not, technically, any opposi-
tion to the production of the papers, yet be would not
conceal from the House that his object was not simply
to obtain those papers, but to induce the House to ex-
press the same sympathy with the subject to which the
papers adverted as had been done on a former occasion.
He was desirous of exciting an expression of sympathy
with those of their fellow-countrymen who were now
passing their fifth year—if God should have spared their
lives—amid the horrors of an Arctic winter. He would
earnestly urge upon her Majesty's Ministers to take
such measures for the relief of their fellow-countrymen
as their own zeal and as the science of those by whom
they were surrounded might teach them t 3 be the most
applicable for the purpose—that of rescuing Sir John
Franklin and those who were associated with him;
that they would, in fact, do what they had on a
former occasion dune in sending forth an expedition
in search of that gallant officer and his gallant crew.
The Government ought but slightly to esteem
that person who could move fur even a slip of paper
in reference to future proceedings, who did not at
the same time acknowledge what they had already done
upon the subject. At the same time he was bound to
urge upon them not to lose a month, a week, a day, or
even an hour in se ?king to release those gallant men
from their perilous position; for ON cry former expedition
had failed, if not entirely, or principally, yet in some
measure at least from not having been sent forth from
this country at an earlier period. He believed that
during last month all the crews of the whalers were en-
gaged for the ensuing season; and that hardly any
whalers would remain in this country by the end of March.
In order that the search
might be effectual, it ought to
commence in Baffin's Bay at the end of May, or the
beginning of June, so that it might take advantage of
the first opening in July. He ventured to hope, without
wishing to disparage any
other mode of search, that her
Majesty's Government and the Lords Commissioners of
the Admiralty would take into consideration the expe-
diency of applying steam navigation directly and prima-
rily in the search. It was not the suggestion of Sir J. C.
Ross, but of his predecessor Sir John Ross, that steam-
paddles might be used with great advantage, provided
they could be adapted to the vessels. He (Sir R.
Inglis) had learned from high authority that the mea-
sure was not only practicabl
adapted and applied most usefully in such an enterprise.
He would a!so suggest that insteadebuot might be easily
of
two
vessels being
emploned the same amount of tonnage should he distri-
buted among four vessels. The object was not so much
to go from one point to another as to make a search in
all directions. Supposing four vessels should go out, he
would suggest that each vessel should be independent of
the others. A stimulant would thus be given to the
energy of each, and greater results would probably fallow
than could be secured by any other mode. He had not
raid a word on the subject as being one connected
with humanity, with national honour, or with science;
but the cause of humanity ought to compel them, and
a feeling of national honour ought to induce them to
do what he now urged upon her Majesty's Govern-
ment, without a word being 'said about science. For
what did they hear at the close of the last
ses3inn ? That the Governments of two other States
were engaged in making preparations for rescuing our
own countrymen. He believed there was no precedent
in history of one nation sending forth an expedition to
rescue the lives of the subjects of. another nation. He
did not know whether, either in the case of Russia or e f
the United States, their hopes had been realised, but the
honour of England required that efforts should be made
by England herself to resstte her owes countrymen. It
had been suggested that the use of small balloons would
facilitate the search. He gave no opinion upon the sub-
ject, but he understood that such a mode might be made
subsidiary to the other means employed. This was not
a private question; be would not, therefore, introduce
private considerations, but when ho reflected on the
extraordinary conduct of the wife of Sir John Franklin,
of her self-denying efforts in the cause of her husband
and of his companions; when he considered the hun-
dreds of persons who were interested in the fate of
the husbands and brothers now engaged in that
expedition, he thought he did not unreasonably
prefer his suit to the First Lord of the Admiralty when
he expresso I a hop that he would take the subject
into consideration, not merely from a sense of humanity
toe a-ds those who were missing, or from a ser.se of na-
tional honour, or from a consideration for the cause of
science, but also from a sympathy for the anguish and
s . ' that had been felt by so many of
61.191,C1.0th05e who,
though breathing the same genial air with ourselves at
home, were s„fyrriDg for those who were now separated
from them, end were existing in the regions of an ice
bound zone. He had reason to hope that his Right
Lion. Friend wee not only prepared to conceie the
Ipapers he had asked• , for, but to indicate to the House at
once that it was the firm intention of the Government to
comply with the suggestions that had been made.
Mr. A NnTley, in secoucliug the motion, said he
wished to draw tho attention of the light Hon. Baronet
• - 1 which em snaten, be believed, from aentle-
g
te a re•0,,054
matt named lll`Cortnaclinsho wise formetly surgeon of the

Erebus, one of the missing vessels, when it was engaged
in the Antarctic expedition, that there should he a t tx
pedition to be carrie on mainly by boats having u vessel
as a point d'appui at the head of Baflin's Bay, t ) inves•
ttt; e Smit`i Sound, Jones's Sound, and the Wellington
Chasm'. The impoi t ince of the suggesti )n restrd on
the hypothesis that from the long time that had elapsed
since the missing vessels were stun, they might conclude
that if nay of the officers or men were now in exiAtenc.,
they were arrested at some poi❑t between which and the
habitablf,s. ragions cf the globe there was no cummunica-
don, and, therefire, probably they would be found in the
neighbourhood of Parry's Island, that being in the direc-
tion in which Sir J. Franklin was to proceed. The author
cf the suggestlon had volunteered to take the command
of the boats engaged in the very arduous enterprise, and
as the only question of expense was the outlay necessary
to enable him to reach the point indicated on board a
whaler, which might be employed to carry out the object
in other quattars, ho hoped that it would not be neg-
lected.

Sir. F. T. BARING said he was much obliged to his
Hon. Friend for giving him the opportunity, and he had
intended to take the first, of stating the course the Go-
vernment prcposed to pursue with regard to this expe-
dition. He had thought it right, however, as the time
for sending the expedition had arrived, that the Govern-
ment should take upon itse!f the responsibility of not de-
laying the expedition to Behring's Straits. He would
now state that it was the intention of the Government
to send out an expedition in search of Sir J. Franklin
from the-caitward of Lancaster Sound; bat he thought

it better to reserve the details of the course adopted by
the Government, and to lay them on the table in the
shape of a minute or paper, as they were not at present
entirely fixed. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Youghal, that although he was quite
ready and anxious to give the most respectful attention
to every suggestion on the matter, many of the proposals
which he had heard that evening hal been previously,
made to the Government, and had been much con-
sidered by them, and they would endeavour to adopt
those which they really believed t 9 be the
mot efficient for the object they had in view. He
thought it right to state that he had never done the
House of Commons or the country the injustice to sup-
pose that expense would be an obstacle when the lives of
their fellow-men were at stake.—(Bear, hear.) The
time might unfortunately come when they would have
no right to risk lives in such a service, but he did think
V( ere still lemained such a hope of the existence of these
persons from the advice and opinion of those who were
better able than others to form an opinion on the sub-
ject, as justified the Government in taking every mea-
sure which they could fairly and properly take to give
assistance if possible—at any rate to ascertain the fate
of our unfortunate countrymen. At the same time,
whilst he did not underrate the va!ue of the extension
of science and of geographical knowledge, he had not
undertaken these expeditions for the purpose of such ex-
tension, but for the sole purpose of saving the lives of
the men engaged in Sir J. Franklin's expedition. His
Imperial Majesty the Emperor of Russia had most cor-
dially and kindly afforded every assistance in his power,
and he was also bound to state that the Hudson's Bay
Company had not only acceded to every representation
that was made to them, but had volunteered several
measures which they thought might secure the object in
view.

Mr. WYLD was extremely glad to hear that it was
not the intention of the Government to make any greater
sacrifice of life and money upon expeditions conducted
like the former one. He believed that all persons who
had paid any attention to the subject knew well that, the
state of the current being from west to east, the expe-
dition 13 ad to encounter not only the perils of the season,
but an immense accumulaP.ion of ice from the west to
the east, caused by the flow of the tide. He entertained
a confident hope that Sir John Franklin WAS still alive,
and that he was most probably detained at the southern
portion of Melville Island. It would be presumptions in
him, of course, to suggest what course the Government
ought to adopt; but, et the same time, he thought it
very desirable that a communication should be attempted
with the portion of that country not hitherto explored,
by means of a land expedition. A largo sum of money
had already been expended to no purpose, but in future
searches the chances of success would be far greater if'
the discoveries were made from the laud and not from the
sea.—(lie bear.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS thanked the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, the First Lord of the Admiralty, for the state-
ment he had made, which he was sure would give satis-
faction to the House and to the country.
The motion was then agreed to.
COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS.
Mr. M. GIBSON moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to establish county financial boards for the assessing cf
county rates, and for the administration of county ex-
penditure in England and Walee, but made no farther
observations upon it.
Mr. FREW EN simply seconded the'motion.
Mr. DISRAELI said, before this question was put
he should like to inquire of the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had moved it in a manner so suspiciously quiet.—
(A laugh.) Last session, when he (Mr. Disraeli)
brought before the House his motion on local taxation,
the Right Hon. Gentleman favoured the House with
an ingenious speech, the object of which was to prove
that the occupiers of land did not pay the rates, but the
owners of the soil paid them. Now he wished, before
leave was given for the introduction of this Bill, that
the Right Hon. Gentleman, with that candour which
distinguished him, would answer the question he was
now going to put to him. What was his opinion in
proposing to introduce this project of law? What was
his opinion on this highly import int and interesting sub-
ject?—(A laugh.) Was it his opinion that the occu-
piers of land did pay those rates? He supposed that
to be the Right Hon. Gentleman's present opinion, as
be was now proposing a representative government
which could only be the consequence of that conviction.
But if that were his re al opinion, then he (Mr. Disraeli)
should take leave to remind him and his friends that on
another occasion they would have the opportunity of
supporting a proposition which he should make to the
House.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that that was not the time to
enter into such a discussion as the Hon. Gentleman in-
vited him to commence—(Hear)—but if it were true, as
he had often heard, that the interests of the landlord and
tenant-farmers were one, the Hon. Gentleman could not
object to the tenant-farmers having a voice in controlling
the expenditure of the country.—(Sear, hear.) It must,
however, be admitted that, although the occupier would
in the first instance pay the rate, in the ultimate settle-
ment between the landlord and the tenant it would fall
on the owner.
Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to ask whether, consider-
ing the smallness of the sums administered by the ses-
sions, it was worth while to overturn a system which
had existed for years and establish a nominal control in
the rate-payers? Almost all the expenditure of counties
was now under the control of the Home-office, and it
would be absurd to establish great machinery for an in-
significant object.
Z;Mr. HUME said that the principle of the Bill was
the same ae that which was hefore the House last ses-
sion, and its object was, simply, to place ratepayers in
counties on the same footing as ratepayers in boroughs,
by giving them some countrol over the expenditure.
Sir E. INGLIS made a general suggestion to the
effect that when there was anything in the title of a Bill,
or the speech of the Member moving for leave to intro-
duce it, which indicated that it was one which the Go-
vernment could not support, Ministers should at once
oppose its introduction.—(Hear, hear.) It was the
custom at present to allow a number of Bills to be in-
troduced, which, after occupying several Wednesdays in
unprofitable discussion, finally met the fate which they
merited at first—rejection.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY expressed his concurrence to a certain
extent in the suggestion of the lion. Baronet; but, as
to the present Bill, he was nct prepared to express op-
position to its principle.
Mr. STAFFORD said that the question wat whether
the incidence of taxation fell upon the owner or the
occupier of land, and with respect to this question the
Hon. Member for Manchester blew hot and cold. It Ras
too much the habit of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to an-
nounce what they called a great principle—to declare
that they were determined to stand by it, and on the
fallowing evening to do that which would practically
abrogate it. It was only last week the mover of the
Address told the House that the incidence of property
fell upon the owner of the had. Now this great prin-
ciple was qualified by the Right Hon. Member for Man-
chester and the HAL Member for Montrose.—(Hear,
hear.) The principle was a vital one, and Hon. Members
must not be permitted to blow hot and cold with respect
, to it. _ _ .

Mr. AGLIONBY concurred with the Hon. Member
for Oxford University is thinking that Government
ought not to indulge the propensity of certain
Members to introduce useless Bills for dull Wednes-
day debates.—(Hear, hear.) If Ministers were bound
to support all the measures which they allowed t )
be brought in they would soon see the necessity of
checking the practice. As it was they caused lice.
Members to suppose that these Bills would obtain
their support, but in the end they found that, although
they might have their good wishes, they could not get
their votes. With respect to the question before the
House, he would not undertake then to ee 43rtnine
wheti.er the rates fell upon the owner or the occupier;
bat wheerer it was, that party ought to have the control
of their expenditure.—(' Hear, hear," from the Oppo-
sition benches.) In his opinion there could not be a
worse body for administering the rates than the magis-
trates. They were appointed by the Lord-Lieutenants,
and had no interest in common with the ratepayers
except in as far as they were owners of property..
Sir J. PAKINGTON agreed with the last speaker
that the rates should be administered by the persons
who paid them, and those were the owners of land. The
change proposed by the Bill involved most important
considerations connected with criminal justice, and he
hoped that the Government would not support it.
Mr. FREWEN said he was compelled to oppose his
Hon. Friend the Member for Buckinghamshire on this
occasion. When the Bill was before the House last year
he supported it ; and he had since received resolutions,
adopted at several farmers' clubs in his division of Sus-
sex, approving of the course which he had token on that
occasion. The expenditure for the Rest Division of
Sussex had doubled between 1834 and 1843, and hal
considerably increased again since the latter period. In
the present mode of raising and administering county-
rates, that principle of the British Constitution which
declared that the people should not be taxed except
through their representatives was wholly dhrogerded.
Ia some counties an extraordinary system of fevouritiem
prevailed as regarded the appointment of magistrates ;
,r it was found that gentlemen of large property were
passed over, Whilst others who were possessed of compa-
ratively little property were nominated.—(HoQr.)
Mr. DISRAELI said that the Hon. Member far East
Sussex Vi as not in the lichee when be (Mr. Disraeli)
spoke, w.herwi.“3 he would have known that he had
not, at present, said a word iteaicet Vie Bill,i
but only
called kyr S definition of the principle on which t was
introduced.

M-. HENLEY requested that Government would no
:cave the inAgistracy responsible fir the peace cf the
country and the care of gaols, and deprive them of the
means of effecting those objects.— (Hear.)
Sir G. GREY said that he would not consent to ex-
clu,',e the magistracy f,oni cll contr.il over county rater.
Mr. HEYWOOD said that the Bill would lc aTe
large share of power in the hands of the magistracy.
Leave was thou given fA. the introduction of the Bill.
Mr. HALSEY moved for atld obtaine I leave to bring
in a Bill to amend the rating of small tenements.
On the motion of Mr. THOHNELY, the Select Com-
mittee on Public Petitions was appointed.
Mr. ANSTEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
consolidate and amend the Irish rishery Acts. He de-
scribed the Bill al being fauaded on the recommenda-
tions of the Committee of last session.

Mr. MONSELL obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend an Act of the last session for making provision
for the collection of county cess in Ireland, and fir the
remuneration cf tl.e collectors thereof.

Mr. FREWEN moved fir leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the law relating to the holding of benefices in
plurality. He had been confirmed in the opinion that
such a measure was necessary by observing that dispen-
sations had for some time past been granted for holding
plualities at the rate of more than one per week, and
that among these was one in favour of a clergyman who
was allowed to hold two livings—one worth 1,1001., and
the other worth more than 1,0001.

Sir G. GREY objeAnl to the Bill of last session, not
because he thought the law relating to pluralities did
not admit of amendment, but because he thought the
Bill defective. He should be happy to assist the Hon.
Gentleman in perfecting the measure; but he hoped
that an early day would not be fixed for tho second
reading, as there were various points which required
careful investigation.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
The Lords Commissioners' Spee;ll having been con-
sidered, a Committee cf Supply was fixed for tc-
morrow.

Th© House adjourned at a Q.larter to Tea o'clock.

TO THE SECRETARY OF THE

BRADFORD REFORM ASSOCIATION.
Sir,—On Monday the 4th, the question which formed
the principal point cf contest on the Address, was dc-
bated over again with a sort of bated breath, on occa-
sion of what is termed bringing up the Report. In the
course of this something was done towards throwing
light on portions of the subject in which you and yours
aie so peculiarly interested, and among others, upon the
following.
I wish you would invite the atteLtlon of your thought-
fal working men,—and I know you have individuals of
that class able to grapple with any subject it is possible
to lay before them if they have time t 3 take it orderly
from its beginning,—to the following view of their case,
and finally take their opinions on its truth.
That their position in general is much improved, no-
body when I was with you attempted to deny. Why is
it improved? Is it not distinctly traceable to this fact,
that more custom has come to the shop? That they
can get more food for the same money than they used to
do, may be one part of the season; but this might have
taken place, and still their position have beet no better,
if the quantity of custom t 3 the shop had fallen off as
there were some to prophesy. We will not enter iato
any exact calculation of how much or how little altera-
tion in the custom might have kept them as they were;
but they know full well, that what has happenel at
Bradford, is that Bradford trade is good, which means
that Biaiford goods are in good demand,—that some-
body will buy them and Fay for them, and that the con-
sequence is that workmen in general are in good em-
ployment, to the extent even of finding occupation for
the hand-!oom weavers, who a few years ago stood for-
, lorr, as men whose mode cf working was such as none
could afford to enter Wu.

Who is it, then, that buys Bradford goods and pays
for them, and did not do it a year or two ago? I will
tell them who it is, if any of them have not guessed it
themselves. It is the people who cat foreign corn, and
pay for Bradford goods to go abroad in exchange. The
corn-eaters give their money to the merchant; but the
merchant, or two or three merchants playing into one
another's hands, buy your Bradford goods, and send
them abroad, where through a process of the same
kind with the foreign merchant or merchants,
they clothe the people who grew or sold the corn.
One-third of your trade at this moment, is to go abroad.
Stop the corn coming in, and as you were told a few
weeks ago, you will be put three upon two, or three of
you will have to divide the employment that now falls to
two. Do not puzzle the case with questions of Socialism,
and whether it would not be better if all Bradford were
their own masters, and appointed a commit t
to divide the profits to every man according
to his deserts. This will not be the case this
year, nor next. In the mean time, look to the thing
that brings grist to the mill to-day. Set this down as a
settled point, that ss far as the existing state of things
is concerned, living at Bradford depends on keeping
open the foreign trade, and if you cannot prevent its
being shut up, you must get ready for going three upon
two, with such patience as you may.
The inference I draw from all this is, that in this ques-
tion of foreign corn the battle is not between the English
corn-grower and what he calls the "untaxed foreigner,"
but it is between the taxed corn•grower and the taxed
Bradford man, who has as good a right to exercise his
trade as the other has, and will make as great exec Cons
t) dc fend it. To put this in the broadest light, it shall be
supposed,if anybody pleases, that it is absolutely true that
the foreigner pays no taxes, and pays no w ages either, or
that in his country it snows corn, and the price of it con-
sists of nothing but the expense of shovelling it up and
putting it on board a ship. And still, I say, there will not
be the shadow of pretence, why because the English corn-
grower pays taxes, he should stop your trade of making
corn at Bradford, who pay taxes a j well a i he.
One thing more, if you have time to attend to it. I
have no doubt you would consent to shut up shop at
Bracifod and go into the streets, if you thought the
good of the country called for it. Now then for the good
of the country; and I submit to you whether the good
of the country would not to affect 3d by the stop-
ping of your trade, exactly as it would be by stop.
ping omnibuses to make every man pay five times
as much for travelling in a coach by himself.
The coachmen are deprived of their receipts; but does
not some ether person get them? If you save two shil-
lings out of half-a-crown by riding in the omnibus, do
not you expend them on the baker or the butcher, or in
some way that makes it exactly the same to trade? The
end then is simply this, th4t in one way you get some-
thing for your two shillings, and in the other you get
nothing. Add together therefore all the shilling's
worths that are thus got by those who ride in omnibuses,
and you have the measure of the national loss which
would arise if there were an Act of Parliament to put
them down.

Of exactly the same nature would be the results to the
balance-sheet cf the community, if your honest trade
were stopped. So go on with good consciences, as men
who are struggling for your country's good and f.r your
own. If I have made a single man's view clearer by
this letter, it has not been thrown away.
Oa Tuesday, a long debate on the Ecclesiastical
Commission, ending in the withdrawal of the motion.
I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
AN OLD REFORMER.
London, Feb. 6, 1850.

TILE SUSPECTED POISONING AT II ACKNEY.
Ye .terday morning, at twelve o'clock, the adjourned
inquiry was resumed, for the third time, at the Fnun-
tain Tavern , Upper Clapton, relative to the death of James
Merritt, aged 34 years, a turncock in the employ of .the
East Lundon Water Company, who died on Thursday,.
the 24th ult., from the effects of are enie, al:eged to have-
been administered to him by his wife, Ann Merritt, who
now stands remanded until Saturday next, charged with
having caused her husband's death. The Coroner said,
[Coro he proceeded in examining the numerous wit-
nesses, he would inform the jury that since their last
meeting he had received a communication hom Mr.
Andrews, the summoning officer, that the de-
ceased's father had died suddenly under precisely
similar circumstance?, and that considerable sus
picion attached to the accused that she bad
poisoned her father-in-law as well as her husband.
lie had, therefore, deemed it necessary to order
the disinterment of the body, a post mortem examina-
tion, and also an analysis of the contents of the stomach,
to ascertain, if possible, if there was any foundation for
the rumour. He did not intend to call witnesses in that
case at the present inquiry, but should empanel a fresh
jury at a future time. The following additional evi-
dence was then adduced:—Mary Gillett, the wife of a
labouring, man, residing in the adjoining house to the
deceased,' said that on Thursday last, after the adjourn-
ment of the inquest, Mre. Merritt entered the house,
and asked her if she had heard that poison had been
found in the deceased's stomach. Witness replied in the
affirmative, when Mrs. Merritt exclaimed, " I am in-
nocent ; he was a dear good husband, and it is not
likely I should do such a thing." She then added,
" Dear creature,: if that is ;the case, he has done
it by his own hand." Witless remarked at
the Vale that it was not very likely, as he had put-
chaltd a new pair cf beets the eight previous to
his death. Witness also knew the deceased's father, and
saw him alive on Saturday, the 29th of September last.
Ile died on the following et y; and for the last few hours
previous to his death he was suffering from pains, and
under similar circumstances es the deceased. By the
Coroner—The deceased belonged to a benefit society,
and cat ly on the morning of his death Mrs. Merritt ap-
plied to the society for the burial money, and received
W. 15e., a portion of the sum she was entitled to on the
death f her husband.- By the jury—Witness could not
undertake to say that the deceased's father belonged to
tLe so:iety. Other witnesses were examined, but their
evidence was of no public importance. Tho Coroner said
come further time was necessary to enable the police to
make farther inquiries, and it would therefore be neces-
sary
to adjourn again. In the interim the body of the de-
ceased's father would be thoroughly examined, and the
results laid before another jury. The inquiry was ac-
cordingly adjourned until Monday next.
wele'lciTottledNBthraEtßsoFmles lief I thesell Efi sChirhAeir become El- We lastr
n , and that the crew,
entan-
gled with the nets of the fishing boat,
tnhaemiredltiTheesewrietroe-
jcopar these monsters
dtobetthnigs theirnpeoarrt
withoutboa ttsh,ecmu t.
We are glad to learn that the nets have since been picked
i 6:41r ibfyc and returned *the netsd
up by another boat, and will be returned to the proper
or:nem who are poor men, and could ill-efford to sus-
tain such a loss. Some "eentic men of this neighbourhood
(among whom is Mr. J. I)ymoud, cf. George-street), it:-
Wrested themselves in the poor fishermen's behalf, and
have obtained subscriptiens t) provide a new set of nets
fir them, which, of course, is now rendered unnecessary.
Teo lose however to the fishermen is considerable, by the
damage done to the nets, and by their being thrown out
of employment for some time, but we hole the sum al-
ready subscribed is sufficient to prevent the poor fellows
being sufferers to any material extent by their miefor-
turee.—.Devenpcvt Independoltt.

NAVAL INTELLIGENCE.
THE SUPPLY OF SPIRITS TO SEA MEAT..
A committee of Ilageffirers. and captains with Admiral
Sir By am Mat in the chair, is now sitting It the Ad-
miralty to pronounce on the expediency of reducing ti e
present allowance cf grog which is doily served out to
the seamen cf her Majesty's navy, u fair compensation
being made to them by a proportionate increase in the
amount of their pay'. That the object which it is thus
proposed to arrive at is a great and important deeds-
corßaafrnt
drunkenness;
n there
nrynceyae
st..or;and h
canas be no doubt, as it is a notorious fact
that the majority of punishments which take place in the
e
nt he et
traedi
listrreiacs transition
ttiootron
oi nffrdroiermcieuc
n thelytl "they
intendedconse-
quence f
reformtbe i niesr
ht aobw; ee
ulawsn
not
tf causeentirely
ti e andy
a neweffe ace
het . rheeeeTsr umfhule
the result of modern temperance preaching.nr As early as
in 1824, when teetotalism was a thing not dreamt of in
our philosophy, and the daily allowance of rum per man
was no less than half a pint, a committee of flag officers
was assembled, with Lord Exmouth at its head, who re-
ported it as their unanimous opinion that the discipline
of the fleet and the health of the seamen would be ma-
terially benefited by a reduction in the allowance of
spirits, and they reported to the Board of Admiralty
that the allowance of rum should be reduced nearly
one-half, a just equivalent for the reduction being paid
to the seamen in money. The decision of the com-
mittee was adopted, and there was every expectation
that the most favourable results would ere long spring
from the new system.tTheso hopes were, however, des-
tined to be crushed in the bud—a Bill beine passed two
years ef.er, in 1826, for the equalisation of.liquid muss
sures, by which the present Imperial measure was es-
tabliled ; and the seaman's allowance of grog was
miraculously restored, or nearly so, to the fair pro-
portions of which it had just been curtailed, and which
it has retained :up to the present day. There is some-
thing so natural, so familiar to British ears, in the
association of seamen with grog, that it would, pet-
haps, Le a hopeless task to endeavour to prove
that one is not a necessary adjunct to the other.
Yet is the American navy grog is •uuknown, or
at least the exception and not the rule—the coffee or tea-
pot is the sober substitute to the grog-can; and a solemn
evidence that there is no disadvantage in the system—
that the case in fact is the reverse—is the fact that in a
service requiring all the energy, hardihood, and skill
that a s. moan can possess—namely, the whale fishery—
the ships of the United States have confessedly driven
the English out of the South Seas and Pacific, and have
monopolised that once flourishing and profitable branch
if our commerce.
Evident, however, as are the advantages with which a
temperance movement in our navy would be attended,
and greatly as its efficiency and character would be en-
hanced by it, there are certain considerations which
render it a delicate question to approach, and which
should dictate caution as to the mode in which the re-
form is to be introduced. It will be necessary for the
committee in proposing their measures to assume a
guardianship of vast the seaman would consider his
rights, and whilst the advancement of better discipline
is held in view it should be made evident that the beat
interests, as well as the the true well-being, of the sea-
man are being attended to.
'lhe officers vrho compose the committee, with one so
distinguished not only in his professional, bat in his
administrative character as the Admiral of the Fleet for
their president, form a sufficient guarantee that thee*
considerations will be held in due regard, and that the
fullest evidence as well as the weight of their own expe-
rience will be brought to bear upon the question.
PORTSMOUTH, FEB. s.—Captain George Frederick
Rich (1823) is selected to succeed to the superintendence
of the Roy al William Victualling-yard and the Naval
Hospital at Devonport, vice Captain Toup Nicolas.
The Hercules, 72, store ship, Master Commander
Fulton, arrived at St. Helen's in the night from the
Medittrraw an, and came up to Spithead to-day. She
sailed from Malta on the 7th ult., and Gibraltar on the
24th. Site has brought home a company of Royal
Artillery, and detachments of the 56. h, 67th, and 46th
regiments invalided.
The Hydra steam-sloop, Commander G. Skipwith,
arrived to-day at Spithead, and soon after came into
harbour, from the south-east ce a,t of America sta:ion.
She left four days before the packet Lilting', which ar-
rived last Friday week; her political now., therefore,
has been forestalled. ghe brought the draft cf a treaty
from the Republic of the River Plata fur approval by the
British Government, all that is to be at present cleaned
from the construction of which is, that it is based upon
the " Hood" policy. Commander Skipwith prcceedcd
to the Admiralty with his dispatches, by express, on the
Brighton and South Coast Itailway this afternoon. The
Hydra sailed from Rio on the 13th of December, called
at Ascension on the 29th, Goree on the 12th of January,
and Teneriffe on the 23d. The Tortoise store and guard
ship, Capt. Hutton, and the Spy brigantine, Lieut. Western,
were the only men-of-war at Ascension, which Wand
was very healthy. She br.ngs no later news of the I'4-
cent engagement,on the Gambia. At Goree the French
Commodore and the bulk of his squadron were at r er,-
dezvous. The only ia.senger brought borne by the
Hydra is M. Figuet, late master cf a merchant ship on
the ccast of Africa. The Hydra has captured three
slavers since al e has been out, and liberated 350 s'aver,
whom she took off a wreck. She is ordered to Sheerness
to be paid off.
Ti a Prince Regent, 90, Commodore Martin, arrived
et Lisbon, from Malts, on the 24th ult, to take the corn-
mind of the squadron of evolution.
The Scourge steam-sloop, Commander Lord F. H,
Kerr, sailed from Lisbon for Malta on the 30th ult.

The squadron eras daily exercised, and the Hogue, 60
(steam guard-.hip), is reported to be the smartest of the
whole. The Commodore intended proceeding on •
cruise in about ten days from the above date.
Wind S.W.; strong gales and rain.
PLYMOUTH, FEB. 5. Her Majesty's steam-frigate
Gladiator, having in tow her tender the Jackal steamer,
Isft yesterday for Madeira and the coast of Africa.
APPOINTMENT&

WO DLWICIE, FEB. s.—Surgeon Alexander Mitchell,
M.D. (1849), to the Pinion el, 8, sloop, at Devonport.
Naval Cal.t John T. Swann, to the Fisgard flag-ship,
at Woolwich.

Acting Gunner David Mackley, to the Sparrow, 6,
surveying vessel on the south-east coast of Ireland.
The members of the Board of Admiralty expected to
visit Woolwich Dockyard did not arrive here today,
having important business to transact in t3wn. Com-
modore Ilenry Eden, Superintendent of this dockyard,
left Woolwich, cud had a lengthened interview with
their Lordships at the Admiralty.
Lieutenant Thomas B. Christopher (1841), having
studied steam i t the factory at Woolwich Dockyard,
was examined an I passed to-lay by Mr. Trickett, as-
sistant to the chief eflgineer. The recent order that
all cfficers studying steam at this dockyard should pro-
ceed to Portsmouth to be examined previous to passing,
has been rescinded, and Mr. Trickett will examine
and pass them in future, or until further orders. Com-
mander John H. Gennys (1845). who was appointed
to study steam at Woolwich factory in January, 1849,
aid attended four months, but subsequently went to
sea to be present at the experimental trials cf the
Niger and the Basilisk, has again joined here to finish
his course of study on the passing of Lieutenant
Christopher.
The Niger steam-sloop is to le taken out of the basin
on Friday, and on the following Tuesday will be navi-
gated to Portsmouth by the crew of the Dasher steam-
vessel, under Lieutenant Parks, their commander. The
commander and crew of the Dasher will bring the Argus
steam sloop round from Portsmouth to toe river to be
fitted with her engines by John Penn and Son.
T,e Monkey steam-vessel, Master-Commander Bryant,
is u de: orders to accompany the Niger down the river.
The Grappler iron steam-vessel, formerly employed
on service en the coast •f Africa, under Commander
Lysaght, was sold out of the service last week for 550/.
Toe Rocket, announced for sale at the same time, was
not disposal of.

THE NEW NAVAL NOVEL.—" The Petrel" (writ-
ten, it is stated, by Admiral Fisher) seems likely to at-
tain a great success. It is seldom (says the Weekly New)
that the fallen bat )n of a literary chief is again grasped
by as potent a successor; but, fortunately for the ad-
mirers of tales of the "deep," the work before us is an
exception to the rule, tf e mantle cf the late lamer t d
Captain Marry at having gracefully adjusted itself upon
the shoulders of a gallant flag-officer, who is evidently
capable of wearing it with honour. The Petrel" is more
than a mere tale of the sea; it is, in fact, a brilliantly
nat
Channel,er
at' .
a. I
f,it r
oh me s
wherect
eehn..eceaps
constructed narrat'ae, aboundine' with hair-breadth es-
capes
ter
crewfleyl aislriacdairdnudi
sidangerspinnagstsl:inengbesmyre
passengers
rezociapaaobnaccidpnu:
Indianan
lane'.
ptreal:throe
seef
cPthheei
reminds us of Cooper's best effort;; its interest is thril-
hng and abaerbing. The olumes are full of incident,
possess many highly dramatic scenes, and have a rein of
quiet humour running through the whole; and, though
last, not least, its characters are portrayed with a terse-
ness and graphic power which does credit even to a
literary sailor."—Weekly Noes.
[ADVERTISEMENT.]—THE TEETH AND GENESI',
HEALTH.—It may fairly h 3 said, the state cf the '!',nth
do vndi greatly upoa the state of the- bodily heaps-,and the state of the bodily health th-p:nds greatly upon
the state of the Tce!b. The 1-I(ervevatbic principle
of
infinitesimal doses:in all eases of weaknees and nervous-
ness, is no doubt the right ens,
?t3 nature ia not then
overpowered but assisted. The United Dentists' Tooth
Powder carries this out to its utmost extent, as some of
the
are
and a small peation being gradually
absorbed every day, not only strengthens the gums, but
containedmost strengthening
init,
art in the Mater:a Medics
the whole system. It likewise thoroughly cleanses the
teeth, gradually removing the tartar, purifies the breath,
thereby preveating infection, and corrects acidity in both
Ross
mouth and stomach.—Address, and Sons, 119 and
120, Bishopsgatc-ite t, Lander.

[AP
L
v E T Em E . ]
u;dsce;—onntchet
eaßi
)iee,/ :ca'whs
ouefifv
tEceegivli.upnotif,
es
tvciLondon,ihe lea,lsgo,eg.f:
aiSh
inmuadupt totd' ahri
tcyeaa,
Jockey
Fts handicaps,
bb y
gpi Rilluao
the Challenge declined. Price of
Bell's Life, S•xpet;ce. The sale of Bell's Life exceeds
27,000. A sixpence enclosed to Mr. Clement, jun., 170,
Strand, will ensure a copy by return of pest to any tart
of the United Kingdom.
CITT COURT or SEWERS—The Commiisiorera
tss mbled 12 e'clodi, Mr. Alderman Hunter in the
chair. Mr. Deputy Peacock wai unanimously elected
chairman for the ensuing year. Just as the Court were
about to proceed to the consideration cf the public
business, the mace-bilarer appeared, and summoned them
to
sita:;teevnitdi
tithte
reluctanceCo
t t c'
i Common
oteyed the order, l
aTnhde t members
me
c Court
ue rrt
of Sewers adjourned.
Mr. John Angelo, a volunteer in the late operations
in the Purckub, and who acted as extra aide•de-camp to
Msj x-General Sir J. Thackwell, has been rewarded by
Major-General Sir Archibald Galloway, K. 013.. Chair-
man of the Court of Direc:ors, with an infantry
oadctship.