The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-07 00:00:00

IRELAND.

Mr. FAGAN wished to know whether it was the in-
tention of the Government to introduce a Bill to assi-
milate the law respecting the recovery of small debts in
Ireland to that of the County Courts in England? Also
whether they had any intention of bungle..* forward a
fiscal Bill, a Sanitary Bill, and:a Medical Charities Bill,
during the present session?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said he could not undertake
to say there was any intention, on the part a the Go-
vernment, to bring forward a Bill to assimilate the
law in England and Ireland for the recovery
of small debts, but the subject had been much
discussed by them during the recess. The other Bills
(he was understood to Lay) were under the considarttion
of the Government, but he could cot promise when they
would be brought forward.

THE MINT.
In reply to Mr. HUM E,
Lord J. RUSSELL Wai ut:des,taod to say that a Bill
i
was in preparation n regard to ceitAin alterations con-
cerning the Mitt.
LORD J. RUSSELL AND MR. HORSMAN.
`Mr. ROEBUCK said he wkiled to put a question to
the Government respecting a letter which 1,a.:1 appeared
in the newspapers, signed "E. Horsman,'
ibecause he
thought it concerned the honour of tee House;
and it seemed to him that the sooner an ex-
planation was given the botter it would be for
the Government and all parties concerned.—(Hear.)
This letter charged th., Nolde Lord opposit3 with some-
thing like fraud upon the House, with having given a
promise' to an Honourable Member in his place
in Parliament, and afterwards wilfully breaking it;
bat, lest there should he any misunderstanding about
the matter he would read the worth of the Hon. Gentle-
man • the Nester f)r Cockerraouth, whose name he

found appended to this letter. The Honourable Gen-
tleman then proceeded to read an extract from Mr.
Horsman's letter, addressed to his constituents, in
which it was stated, in reference to the Ecclesiastical
Commission Bill, that certain amendments were sug-
gested to Lord John Russell by Mr. Horapian and
others, which the Noble Lord, after a consolation with
the Archbishop of Canterbury, adopted, and promised that
they should be introduced into the Bill. The Bill in
consideration of this promise is as delayed for some time,
but eventually it found its way int) Committee at a late
hour of the night, when some amendments were
introduced which Mr. Horsman and his friends
supposed were those which had l lea promised,
and the Bill went through Committee pro
forma, without notice or comment. When, however, the
Bill was re-printed with its amendments, it was dis-
covered, that the promised amendments were not in it,
and Mr. Horsman, as an excuse for not seeing that they
were introduced when the Bill was in Committee,
stated in his letter that he should have as soon have
thought of keeping a watch on the Prime Minister t
see that he did not steal his hat, as to watch the intro-
duction of amendments into a Bill after they bad
been promised and adopted by the Minister.
He heard the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Cocker-
mouth some three evenings ago, when he brought on the
motion respecting this matter, say that ho repudiated
this charge. The charge was one ss hich affected
the dignity end honour cf this House, and it should
be answered at once. It was a letter signed with the
name of the Hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Hors-
man), charging the Noble Lord, three weeks before the
assembling of Parliament, with what ho (Mr. Roebuck)
thought was something like fraud.—(Hear, hear.)
He would now ask the Hop. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Horsman) whether or not the charge which he
had lately made was one to which he now adhered, and
what stets were about to be taken to satisfy the country
and this House that the charge was or was not true?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, as the Hon. Gentle-
man had come down to this House for the purpose
of reading a paper snaking a personal attack on his
(Lord John Russell's) character, he thought i; would
only have been right and proper for the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Roebuck) to have given him some notice.
—(Cheers.) He (Lord John Russell) said this

was the more necessary lecause he had never
read the production to which ho had rc-
farred.—(Cheers.) He was told that there was an
attack upon his character signed by the Hon. Gentle-
mu), and he (Lord John Russell) thought that if he

had an attack to make, that he would come forwa!d
in this House, and then he (Lord John Russell)

would have been ready -to answer it upon
the particulars so stated.—(Loud cheers.) He (Lord
J. Russell) hid never read the letter in question; he
I ad heard in conversation some small parts of the state-
ment which the Hon. Gentleman had made. Now,

with regard to this particu'ar allegation, although
he could not say his memory would enable him
to answer as te:the particulas transaction that took place,
he would state generally what had Leen his coarse on
this subject upon the matter which concerned the com-
position of the Ecclesiastical Commission, which
very much affected the state of the Church.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman bad totally omitted one part of the
matter, and that which he thought to be a very impor-
tant
pare. _Hee was unwilling to refer to .the circum-
stances,. but Lae; what the Honourable Gentleman- bad
said .thehe was 'no other course left to him.—(Hear.)
In 1846, when he came into office, after much conversa-
tion with some persons connected with the Ecclesiastical
Commission, and also with some persons emi-
nently connected with the Church, he became
exceedingly dissatisfied with the constitution cf that
Commission. In the following session, therefore, iu
1847, he introduced a Bill with a view to appoint a
ehairmen of that Commission, cf course paid by the
State, without whose presence to business whatever
was to be trash actech Another provision of that
Bill was, that for the future, the office of
treasurer and secretary should never be held by the
same person.—(Hear, hear.) Shortly af,er that Bill was
introduced I received a notice from the Archbishop cf
Canterbury that it would be seriously opposed
in th© House of Lords by mem!. e:s of thet
Ecclesiastical Commission.—(Cries cf " Hear.") Or
this course being taken, he saw that there was very little
chance of success for the Bill. The matter was then
noticed by the Hon. Member for Melton, (Mr. Denison),
and seeing the line adopted by the Archbishop of Can-
terbury, and that he refused to give his assent to the
Bill, he (Lord J. Russell) bad thought it his duty to
move tte appointment of that Committee.—(Bear, hear,
and cheers.) With that appointment the Archbishop
had nothing whatever to do; indcel it was totally con-
trary to his wishes—(Cheers)—and ho mentioned the
matter because that Committee had originated with
himself from a dissatisfaction with the working
of the Ecclesiastical Commission.—(Hear, hear.)
He would now pass to the statement of the Hon. Gen-
tleman that he (Lord J. Russell) had been appealed to
in respect to the difference between his Bill and the
teport of the Committee, and that he had been re-
quested the that Bill should be altered. After com-
municating with the late Archbishop of Canterbury
and the Secretary of State, he found that
both those gentlemen put a different interpretation upon
the recommendation of the Committee to what that Hon.
Gentleman did; but still he had thought it expedient to
make some alteration in the Bill. With regard h
the other points, he certainly did not concur with
the Honourable Gentleman, nor did he exalt])
remember the words which he had used
but he did act think he had said more than that the sug-
gestions of the Hon. Member had been considered, any
that the Bill would certainly be amended. At this stage
he (the Noble Lord) bad found, on communication
with the present Archbishop of Canterbury, that that
Prelate, as well as many other Bishops, had a decided
objection that more than one paid Commissioner
should be appointed, as the revenues of the Church week
thus be applied to purposes for which it v as not origi-
nally intended. He (the Noble Lord) had always wished
to carry with him as much as possible the prelates and
dignitaries of the Church, for otherwise he had felt that
that there never would be that entire harmony between
the two bodies as was necessary for their proper working.
He ought to have explained to the Hon. Gentlecena (Mr.
Horsman) perhaps sooner, how far the suggestions which
had been made had been varied; but it did appear to
him that the letter of the Hon. Gentleman was the re-
sult of excited vanity, that nothing should be done un-
less he knew of it.—(Cheers.) He (Lord J. Russell) w a
not going to resent the charge which bad been made;
he would only say thet he despised such a charge—
(Cheers)—he would not go into a detailed proof of what
had tal:en place from that day for a long period. Et
must say that having been a Member of that House for
many ) cars he would certainly be unworthy of the
position which he held if he were capable of a disgrace-
ful fraud for the purpose of deceiving the Honourably
Gentleman about the composition of the Ecclesiastic a
Commission.—(Cheers.) The alteration of the Commis-
sion was made so far a matter of patronage, that it war
thought the heads of the Church, especially the Arch
bishop of Canterbury, for wham he had the highes
respect, and who was anxious for reform, should be con-
ciliated, and should be induced to give their support are:
good will to the measure.—(Cheers.) These were the
motives which actuated him, and he did not kr.ov
that he would be required to give any further explana-
tion.—(Cheers.)
Sir GEORGE GREY had seen the letter, tine
he had briefly referred to it the ether night it
his reply to the Honourable Member for Cocker
mouth. It was with feelings of shame and astonish.
meat that he bad read the charge, not however
with astonishment that the charge Lould have beer
made, but that it should have been made in December or
January last in reference to a transaction which, accord-
ing to the Hon. Gentlemen's own statement, occurred in
the course of the last session cf Palliate eat, nay, six
weeks be fore its termination, every night of which
is weeks his Noble Friend and himself
sat upon the very benches which they now occupied
Now the Hon. Gentleman might have made his chahgt
in that time, but it would not have served his purpose;
ho wanted this charge of a direct breach of
faith for a winter letter to his constituents.
He would not detain the House by going
at length into the charge, but be would content himself
with distinctly and unequivocally denying the imputa-
tion which the Hon. Gentleman had thought fit to cast
upon him.— (Cheers.) He never had the slightest
reason to suppose his Noble Friend intended
to shirk any amendments; on the contrary,
everything was done to secure the conve
nienco of the House. The Bill was committed pro Joima
on the 14th of June, and reported on the 20th of the
same month, so that there was ample time between then
and the end of the session to discover any omission, and
again he must r epeat his astonishment that the eh arge was
delayed till December or January.—(Hear.)
Mr. HORSMAN observed that the Noble Lord, sad
still more the Right lion. Baronet who had just sae
down, had introduced a good deal of feeling and warmth
into the discussion—(oh, oh !)—but he should take an
entirely different course, and content himself with simp'y
confining himself to facts and evidence.—(oh, oh!)
He wrote thaltycoleratmtaeff men standing
He knew the 'high
position of the patties affected
hstteabhnyeHdir c
tihnouigs charge; he knew
stl
oil Oen ws sympathy
eoruildu
that
House when wralicetheir
ch charges
so
against them ; and he knew that he
must prejudice every impartial and high minded man in
the Reuse, by the boldness and the gravity of the
charges which he (Mr. Horsman) made. He knew
also he might have the greatest difficulty in sub-
stantiating those charges, if he was pressed to
substantiate them. Ho knew, if he cotid not
substantiate them, ho must be held mad to
have made them. Knowing all that, feeling it, and
foreseeing it, he deliberately made that charge, advisedly
published it, and he stood there in the presence of that
Home to avow, to maintain, to reiterate, and to offer to
prove it. Ho left this matter in the hands of the House,
thinking he bad a right to claim the protection of the
House, while he, a private Member of that House, en-
de avoured to prove that charge; but he left it to the
House to decide what he was to do. _

Lord J. RUSSELL—The Hoe. Gentleman had said
that be bad made charges which he had that night re-
it:rated, and he complains that he had been unfairly
dealt with.—(Cheer:.) It would appear that the lion.,
Gentleman had written a letter to his constituents which
has been the subject of some comments in that House.
What he thought was, that if the Hon. Gentleman had
any complaints to make the best plan he could
adopt was to ccmo down to that House and move for
the. appointment of a Committee. He might say
for himself that he would nct oppose it, and he hoped
the Hon. Gentieman would make something out of it.
The SPEAKER then put the question, but it not
being seconded, it fell to the ground amid much laughter
on all sides of the House,