The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

one of the most eminent of living authors—Lord Jeffrey.
He pointed out, in the language of truth, the attempts
which had been made to dissolve the union, and, advert-
ing to the struggles between the two countries, said that
of course it would terminate in favour of the superic r
power. But such a victory would be to England the source
of unspeakable calamity, and the signal of her weakness
and insecurity. Lord Jeffrey further said that the Govern-
ment was bound to make every possible sacrifice to
'diminish the grievances which afflicted Ireland—to do
justice, and to show kindness to a people whom it was
their interest as well as their duty to cherish and pro-
tect.—(Hear, hear.) The union, his Lordship said, must
he made complete, or it would be broken in pieces and
thrown in their faces.—(Hear, hear.) He asked whether
England had done all that it could do to avert the im-
pending calamity, and whether it would not be prudent
in the House to make a step in advance in the course of
conciliation, and acquiesce in the motion ofthe Noble Lord?
It was not merely measures that should be suggested,
but the House should show a sympathy with the Irish
people.—(Hear, hear.) That people wanted to see a
Government' in which they could place confidence.—
(Ironical cheers from a Member on the Ministerial
benches.) The Hon. Gentleman cheered, but in order
to cement the union a disposition should be evinced to
conciliate the feelings of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
What was the feeling in Ireland towards the present
•Government ? Need he answer ? Measures good in
Themselves had been• suggested, but the Irish people
viewed those measures with distrust—they viewed their
acts with reference to their past and present policy. W hat
was the position they occupied with respect to Ireland ?
Their professions were smooth as oil, but their practice
sharp as the sword.—(Cheers.) He could not forget
the language they used when sitting on the Opposition
benches. They now looked upon Ireland, and be-
held the fruits of their past opposition.—(Hear, hear.)
They had chosen Ireland as the battle-field on which
they enlisted the feelings and prejudices of the English
people, with a view to overthrow the former Govern-
tnent—(Hear, hear)—they remembered the conduct of
the Members of the present Administration on the appro •
portion clauses, and their refusal then as now
to depart from the existing ecclesiastical system.
They remembered their conduct with respect to the
Municipal Corporation Act. and their determined op-
position to the municipal franchise—an opposition
grininded on the belief that a large portion of the
Itoman Catholic population would be thereby endowed
with increased privileges.—(Laughter.) They remem-
bered, *hen that Bill had passed through that House,
the resistance which it met, through the agency
of those with whom they were in daily communication,
and who sat in the same Cabinet with them.—(Hear,
hear.) They remembered their conduct on the Regis-
tration Act. The Noble Lord (Lord Stanley) smiled ;
he hoped he would never find it a subject for
bitter regret and deep remorse.—(Hear, hear.)
He now told them with all sincerity that, in order to
Rove the reality of their repentance, they must retrace
with:wider steps, and give more ample evidence than
-those declarations in the appointment of a Landlord
:and Tenant Commission and some improvements in the
at Iteational system.—(Hear, hear.) Something else
was necessary to convince the Irish people, to enlist
-their affections, and to win back their confidence—to
make the union a union of strength and of affection. The
present moment, when, in the language of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the law had been triumphant, was not
the least favourable for an advance in measures of con-
ciliation.—(Hear, hear.) The Irish people would look
with a favourable eye on a disposition on the part of the
Imperial Parliament to enter into a consideration of their
wrongs. Such a step might Ere the means of uniting
them cordially with the people of England. At least
there were grounds for entertaining such an opinion, and
no opportunity should be lost for attaining so desirable
a consummation.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) For these
reasons, and because he considered that the present crisis
imperatively demanded the interposition of the House
of Commons for the amelioration of Irish grievances,
And the allaying of the excitement which at present
prevailed in that country, he would give his cordial
.assent to the motion of the Noble Lord.—(Loud and
'prolonged cheering.)
Lord ELIOT said, that his Right Hon. Friend, the
Secretary for the Home Department, had so ably vindi-
cated every act of the executive Government, that he might
well content himself with resting the vindication of the
'Government upon his statements, but the situation which
he held would not allow him to remain silent on this
debate. The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down had commenced his speech by adverting to a
statement made by his Right Hon. Friend, regarding
-the military occupation of Ireland. His Right lion.
Friend had drawn a comparison between the years
11844 and 1834 ; and shown that there Was smaller
-n-Olitary force at present in Ireland than before
the accession 'of the present Ministry to office. In Sep-
tember, 1841, to November, 1843, there was a diminu-
tion to the extent of four battalions of infantry, and one
regiment of cavalry; surely that showed no disposition
OD the part of the present Government to take military
possession of Ireland. But this he would say, that what-
ever amount ormilitary force was necessary for the se-
curity of life and property in Ireland, should be placed
in that country. The state of Ireland at this moment
was not worse, he was bound to suppose, than when the
Coercion Bill was brought forward by the Noble Lord, a
measure which the Right Hon. Gentleman said he would
_not support if it were brought forward by the present
,Vovernment. What was really the motion of the Noble
"lord? Did he ask for a Committee to suggest measures
for the amelioration of the evils of which he com-
plained ? Was it not rather a motion, having for its
object, the taking the reins out of the hands of the pre-
sent Government and placing them in the bands of the
Government to which he belonged? The Right Hon.
Gentleman and the Hon. Member for Waterford spoke
in vague and general terms of the grievances of Ireland,
but they did not propose a remedy. They talked of the
Church Establishment, and said it was not a question of
money ; but if it did not refer to the revenues of that
Church to what did the proposed change refer ? He
now came to the question of the issuing of the proclama-
tion. The Noble Lord then read the conclusion of the
Solicitor-General's address to the jury on the State
trials, justifying the course pursued by the Government
on the ground that a meeting per se did not constitute
an offence; but that it was the frequency of those meet-
ings and their general tendency which called upon the
Government to interfere. The Noble Lord then referred
to the exclusion of Catholics from the jury, and read the
declaration of the Crown solicitor, which affirmed that
one of the two Catholics rejected, although not
a: member of the Repeal Association, had, in his
-belief, signed the Carlow repeal requisition, and that
the other he believed to have been a Protestant.
Her Majesty's Government had been advised by the
Law Officers of the Crown that this was a dangerous
confederacy—dangerous to the peace of Ireland ; but
that it was their duty not to interfere till it had deve-
loped itself. The Right. Hon. Gentleman talked of the
peaceable state of Ireland. He had read to the House a
letter which he had received from a Magistrate, and
which described the alarm which was created in the
minds of the Protestants, and stated that the well-dis-
posed Catholics were reluctantly obliged to join the
ranks of the repealers.
An Hon. MEMBER—Who wrote the letter ?
Lord ELIOT said he had no objection to name the
gentleman who wrote it. It was written by Mr.
Saunderson, a Magistrate of the county of Cavan, who
had been formerly a Member of that House.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord then read the letter, which stated that
there were no soldiers in Cavan ; that the Protestants
were preparing their arms in expectation of an outbreak;
that if a simultaneous movement took place they would
not be prepared to make any resistance, except a few
Protestants, who were preparing for a conflict.
An Hos. MEMBEE—W hat is the data of that letter ?

Lord ELIOT—It is dated the sth of June, 1843.
(Opposition cheers.) But military forces were being
then introduced into the country. He would take that
opportunity of saying that the Protestants of the north
of Ireland were entitled to the thanks of the Government
for their conduct. They heard the Roman Catholic
peasantry using expressions which were calculated to
arouse the most serious apprehensions. They believed
that an insurrection was preparing, but not to create
jealousy. Among those from whom they apprehended
danger they maintained a perfectly passive attitude,
which did them the greatest honour. They were accus-
tomed to assemble on certain days, but they at once
yielded obedience to the law when the law forbade those
meetings ; and they could not see the difference between
their meeting with Orange flags and the repealers meet-
ing with green flags. He now returned to the
Cloritarl meeting. There were circumstances attend-
ing that meeting which tended to give it an illegal
character. The Lord Lieutenant had been absent in
England for the benefit of his health, and the Lord Chan-
cellor was exhausted from the continual attendance in his
Court, to which no person who ever sat in it brought higher
ornaments. He also was absent. The placard which
had been read last night by his Right Hon. Friend, Vi a s
issued. and such were the circumstances attending the
meeting, that lie was prepared to Venture to prohibit it
on his own responsibility. He stated 'his views on the
'subject, and his Right Hon. Friend near him had con-
curred with him in the views he took of the subject.
He believed it was then agreed that the proclamation
should be issued. It arrived on the 4th day of October,
the day on which his Noble Friend left London. He
left on Thursday, with the Chancellor, and arrived in
Dublin on Friday. The Right Hon. Gentleman ac-
cused them of having a proclamation ready cut and
dry. It was left to the discretion of the Irish Govern-
ment to act as circumstances might point out, aad when
the Lord-Lieutenant arrived they all agreed that
the meeting should be prevented. (Hear, hear)
It had been said that Chief Baron Brady and' Mr.
Blake, two gentlemen he was proud to call friends, were
not summoned, and that this was an insult to the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland. That observation
had been
made made by Mr. Sheil in his speech in Court, but heLordn
Eliot) believed that the fact was, that Chief Baron
srady was a Protestant,' and he (Lord Eliot) took upon
himself the blame of not summoning those individuals.
He considered that it was an act of the Executive Goa.
vernment, for which they were responsible, and he did
not think that it would be delicate to ask the political
opponents of the Government to be present at the coun-
cil, where they would be in a small minority. Even if
they dissented from the views of the Government, which
he was not sure they would do, their dissent would not
be recorded, and it could only be known that they did
so through paragraphs in the newspapers. But it was
from a feeling of delicacy that they were not summoned.
-s-(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had alluded to
the risk which was incurred in notgiving more time for
the suppression of the Clontarf meeting. Now he
(Lord Eliot) believed that the people did not assemble at
the place of meeting until after mass, and from an early
hourthe whole of the ground was occupied by an over-
wbejsrozzg military force, and no mass of unarmed in-
dividuals vould have ventured to encounter such a force.

Information had been sent of the proclamation to all the
police-stations, and he believed that few persons were
present at the meeting before the day on which it
was to take puce, except, perhaps, an inconsiderable

number. But from the display of military force. he be-
lieved that no collision would be possible. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had said that the meeting'was not legal,
but nothing could have been easier for Mr. O'Connell
than to try that question by going with a few persons to
the place of meeting and bringing- an action of trespass
against those who prevented them from meeting. The
Noble Lord proposed to go into Committee of the whole
House, and then to propound resolutions condemnatory
of the conduct of the present Government, but the Noble
Lord cautiously abstained from propounding any reme-
dies except to increase the number of stipendiary magis-
trates. His Right Hon. Friend gave that Noble Lord
such a lesson on this subject, that he believed he would
not be in a hurry to propose such a recipe again.—
(Cheers.) The Noble Lord spoke of the Established
Church of Ireland, which he would break up into a
tripartite division to make provision for the three
Churches in Ireland, Catholic, Protestant, and Presby-
terian. But the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Waterford, repudiated any idea of making a State pro-
vision for the Roman Catholic Church. It was not
worth while therefore discussing the subject, because
the only object the Government could have in view in
proposing such a State provision for the Catholic clergy
would be to secure their good will and affections; and if
they were told by Roman Catholics it would
be injurious to their religion, it would be al-
together hopeless to attempt such a proposal.
Then they came to the question, were they to subtract
any portion of the revenues of the Protestant Church.
In his speech the Hon. Gentleman disclaimed any such
intention ; he said it was not a question of money.
Well, then, it must be the actual existence of the
Established Church which was concerned ; and
though he believed that the great body of
Roman Catholics would adhere to the declarations
which they had made on this subject, yet he believed
that there were men, there were agitators, in Ireland,
who would not be satisfied with any measure, short of
the actual subversion of the Protestant Church.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not believe that that House, or
any House which might be assembled, would consent
to the subversion of the Protestant Church in Ireland.
He did not know what might now be the opinions of
the Noble Lord opposite ; but when he introduced the
Church Temporalities Bill, be stated that he did so with
a view rather of strengthening the Protestant Church ;
and, therefore, though he might have been disposed to
take a portion of its funds, as in the csse of the Appro-
priation Bill, for other purposes, he would not be disposed
altogether to subvert the Establishment. The object in
that case was to apply a certain part to general educe-
cation, and not to provide for the religious education of
the people. Some references had been made to the de-
clarations that lie (Lord Eliot) had formerly made in
that House. To those declarations he adhered, both in
their letter and in their spirit.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not remember the very words, but they simply imported
that the Government, of which he had become a member,
would conduct the Government of Ireland in a spirit of
impartiality. Now, notwithstanding all the aspersions
which had been cyst upon her Majesty's Government.
be was quite unable to fix on any single act which
required defence from him. The Government had been
in power two years and a half, and during that time he had
not heard any imputation except that which his Hon.
Friend had expressed last night in reference to the jury.
and, generally speaking, their exercise of Crown patron
age; and he presumed the Right Hon. Gentlemen oppo-
site were not so ignorant of the Constitution of this
country as to imagine that her Majesty's Government
were bound to dispense that only to their political oppo-
nents. Now it did so happen, unfortunately, that a very
large majority in the liberal professions in Ireland be-
longed to the Established Church. Take the instance
of Queen's counsel. 'I he Queen's counsel were about
sixty or seventy in nurtiber. How many Roman Catho-
lic Queen's counsel were there ? Twelve. Had it been
said by any man in that
,House, or in Ireland, that
either the late Lord Chancellor, Lord Plunket, or the
present Lord Chancellor, had excluded from the
honour of the silk gown any man whose pro-
fessional standing entitled him to it ?—(Hear, hear.)
He denied that that had ever been the case. Eight
Queen's counsel were employed by the traversers. It
was to be presumed that they put into requisition the
services of the most eminent men at the bar of the Ro-
man Catholic religion, yet out of the eight Queen's
counsel five were Protestants. Could there be a stronger
proof that the great majority of eminent men belonging
to the bar were Protestants ?—(Hear, hear.) It was this
circumstance which made it difficult for the Government
to select for office men professing the Romaa Catholic
religion.—(Hear, hear,) It was painful to him to enter
Into these personal discussions, but he asked gentlemen
opposite, who brought these grave charges against the
Government, to consider in what position they were
placed. He contended that the Government had con-
ferred honours on men who, by-the common consent of
their profession, stood in the foremost ranks, and he db-
fied the Hon. Gentleman to produce any instance in which
any unfit or improper man had been raised to the Bench
or appointed to any office. As so much had been said
of the partiality of the English Government to English-
men, he had thought it right to state that he believed,
since their accession to power, the Government had not
made a single appointment which they had reason to
regret. Her Majesty's present Government had ap-
pointed three stipendiary magistrates—a situation of
very great responsibility. They had selected an assist-
ant barrister for a high judicial office, and that gentle-
man had conciliated to himself the good-will and affections
of the inhabitants of one of the most important counties
in Ireland. He referred to Mr. Sergeant Howley, who
had received from the whole of the magistracy, upwards
of 100, from private gentlemen, from the yeomanry, and
from the inhabitants at large of the county of Tipperary,
an expression of satisfaction at his appointment. He
believed that Mr. Sergeant Howley was the only Roman
Catholic whom the Government could have selected for
the honour conferred on him ; but, at the same time, he
must assert that there were many gentlemen at the bar,
belonging to the Protestant Church, whose claims
were quite equal to those of Mr. Sergeant" Howley,
whose politics, though they had always been moderate,
were certainly not those of the present Government.
He thought he had said enough to show the House
that, in the distribution of patronage, her Majesty's Go-
vernment had not been actuated by any exclusive or un-
worthy motives, but that they had endeavoured to seleot
the men whom they thought best qualified for their re-
spective offices, without reference to religious distinc-
tions or differences.—(Hear, hear.) He did maintain,
that in the whole course of their administration, the
Government had been guilty of no dereliction of duty
whatever, either by tampering with the administration
of justice or by promoting anything like an ascendancy
of one party over the other. He believed that the
strictest impartiality had been observed, and he should
be prepared, whenever called upon, to vindicate any of
the appointments or any particular acts of the Irish
Government. But it was very difficult to deal with these
sweeping, vague, and general accusations. He had taxed
his memory to the utmost, for instances in which some
apology or explanation might be necessary, but he
honestly confessed that he could not find one. He
would not indulge in vague and general expressions of
attachment to Ireland, but he said unaffectedly that he
had always entertained a warm desire to promote the
prosperity of that country, and his official connexion
with it, the kind and hospitable reception which he had
met with is the country, and the friendships which he
was happy to say he had contracted there, as well as
all which he had seen of the country and its inhabitants,
had greatly strengthened and increased that desire. lie
might be mistaken in the means which he thought
adapted to that end, but he honestly declared that he
would never be a consenting party to any measure
which he did not seriously believe to be calculated to
advance the welfare of the Irish nation.—(Loud cheers

On the motion of an How. MEMBER the debate was
again adjourned.
Mr. FERRAND then moved for a copy of the General
Order of the Poor-law Commissions, which has received
the sanction of the Secretary of State, that no child of
seven fears old shall be separated in any workhouse
from its mother.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that all that the Hon. Member
had asked for had been placed before the House.—
(Hear, hear.) It had already been printed in every
shape and form.—(Hear, hear.) He must, therefore,
protest against the re-printing of the Order alluded to
by the Hon. Member.
Mr. FERRAND said he only wished for that part of
the order which related to the separation of mother and
child.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that he could have no objec-
tion, if the Hon. Member wished it, although he conk!
now hand him up every information, to agree to his
suggestion, but in doing so he must be allowed to say
that it was unnecessary.—(Hear, hear.)
The motion was then negatived, and the House ad-
journed at Half-past Twelve o'Clock.