The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-16 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING,

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL f)r IRELAND and the So-
LICIT-In GENERAL for ENGLAND roso totether, which

e!ieite.d much cheering and lalightPr from the Opposi-

thin benches; the lacier Hon. and Lcarned Gentleman
gave way, and
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL fir IRELAND said
he felt it his bounden duty, notwithstanding that the
answer to these questions had been postponed, in const-
queue() or tie personal affront to himself, to ray a few
words.—(lleir, hear.) With regard to the Solicitor-
General for England having the conduct t f the Eucum-

bered Estates Bill, he begged to say that the measure
Was originated by that Honourable and Learned Gentle-
.

man befire he had the honour of a seat in that Mouse.

((Tear, hear.) The subject had been long under consi-
deration with those parties with whom the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had advised in Ireland, whoa ho
(Mr. liatchell) hal no expectation of a seat i❑ that
(louse.—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the present
measure, although it had been introduced after he had

become a M,mber, still it was engrafted upon and formed
part of the same code. The Hon. and Learner' Gentle-
man opposite must have been aware of that fact. With
regard to the questions he had asked, he was surprised
that the llon. and Learned Gentleman had not extended

to him the usual courtesy of giving him notice, to pre-
rent his being eaugitt by hasty answers. Although he
(Mr. lla'chcll) hail been charged with not having
answered the lion. and Learned Gentleman, the notice

of these questions had actually been given to his lion.
and Learned Friend the Solicitor• General for England.
He put it to the good feeling of that House 11 hether that
was just or not?—(Hear, hear.) He could only at pre-
sent inform the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, not
having had an opportunity of consulting the Com-
missioners, that sales had taken place, whether
they were five, or seven, or nine, he could
not say, but ho could say that the statement
might be seen in any of the Irish or English
newspapers. With regard to the orders, they had
been numerous, but he could not state the precise
number. The third question was, whether any sales
had taken place on the terms of paying half the pur-
chase-money. Now he must ask the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman whether he had ever read the Bill, because
if he had he would find that there was no such clause

in the Bill. The purchaser was required to pay the
whole of the purchase-money into the Bank of Ireland,
and all he was then at liberty to do was to borrow half
on the security of the title.—(Roars of laughter, and
♦ociferous cheering from both sides of the House). He
hoped these answers would be satisfactory to the llon.
and Learned Gentleman. _

Mr. STUART hoped he would be allowed to explain.
He gave notice of the questions he intended to ask cf the
law officer of the Crown who had charge of the Bill.
Finding that that Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
not informed on the subject, he thought it but due to
the Solicitor-General for Ireland to inform him of the
questions be had asked. He begged to assure him that
he meant him no discourtesy whatever. The 13th clause
of the Bill distinctly stated that one-half of the purchase-
money should not be deemed a debt due from the
purchaser.
Mr. HUME hoped that the progress of a Bill that
was so necessary would not be impeded by the amend-
ment of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said that the Honourable and
Learned Member had not satisfied the House that he
had read more than the 12th clause of the BilL The
first clause required the whole amount of the purchase
money to be paid into the Beek. In consequence of the
whole amount of the purchase money being required to
be paid under the existing law, property was sold at a
great disadvantage. By that morning's papers they were
informed of a fine estate being sold for only 6i years'

purchase.
Sir J. WALSH appealed to the candour and fair
dealing of the House not to farce so important a measure
on at that advanced perod of the night. It was impos-
sible at that hour to bestow the adequate attention upon

such a subject.
Mr. ANSTEY hoped the Government would perse-
vere in urging forward the measure, which was one of
the best Bills brought forward for Ireland during that
session. The Hon. Baronet opposite, who now objected
to this measure, which was to enable more purchasers
to come forward, and thereby to procure for the owner
a higher price for his property in Ireland, had himself
complained last session of the existing law, by which he
said estates would be sold for an old song.
Lord J. RUSSELL hoped the House would not occu-
py any more time by the discussion of this question. We
have unfortunately got into a custom latteriy, when a
Bill was proposed after eleven o'clock, of discussing for
a considerable time whether or not the Bill should be
introduced. The question was a simple one. If the
House meant to decide that no Bill should be introduced
after eleven o'clock, we might ac well adjourn the House
at that hour. He did not think that that would be a
wise or convenient course.—(Hear, hear.) Let us, how-
ever, not argue the question from eleven to one o'clock.
Mr. DISRAELI, as a general rule, quite agreed with
the Noble Lord. At the same time there were circum-
stances connected with the present measure which should
induce us to modify that opinion. The Noble Lord must
remember that the House had been engaged up to the
present time in the constant discussion of a subject of
a very different character. And as this was a
question of great importance, in respect to which
the Noble Lord behind him (Lord Naas) had
already notified his intention of moving an amendment
to the motion for the second reading, he trusted that it
would not be considered unreasonable if they objected to
proceeding with it at that late hour. He was most un-
willing to enter into a series of divisions for the purpose
of preventing the progress of any measure ; but he put
it to the Noble Lord to consider the position in which
the House would be placed if we commenc al the debate
now, and if the Noble Lord no it him were to make his
statement against the passing of the Bill which he con-
templated making. We should in such a case be kept
here until four o'clock in the morning. That was a
course which he did not think would be fair or conveni-
ent for the House to take. By stopping discussion now
the Government would not succeed in advancing the pro-
gress of the measure, for that discussion would be taken
upon the next stage of the Bill, and in all the form and
sustained character as the House would have had on the
second reading of it. This was no hostile movement
got up to prevent the progress of the. measure, but the
reasons he had already stated were, ho thought, quite
sufficient to justify a postponement of the present
question.
Mr. HENLEY hoped the House would not fail to
notice what had been stated by the Hon. and Learned
Solicitor-General for Ireland—namely, thnt this Bill
was part and parcel of the Encumbered Estates Bill of
last year. These measures proposed to deal rather vio-
lently with property, and it was therefore important
that the present one,
at all events, should be well con-
sidered before it was passed into a law. They had al-
ready passed the Judgments Bill this year, which should
also be viewed in connexion with those other Bills. By
the Judgments Bill they had exempted for the future
land in Ireland from antecedent judgment. The Bill
would simply enable a man to throw over his passive
creditors, and to stand possessed of his estate as if
nothing had happened.—(Hear.) Now could it be ex-
pected that any respect would Le had for the large mass
of property in other hands, if puisne creditors were thus
treated? They had in the newspapers an instance re-
corded of a man who, under the operation of this Act,
bought back kis own estate. Under the operation
of the three Bills, what chance would that man have
who refused to put his estate through that court, and
cheat his creditors?—(Hear, hear.) If considera-
tion was to be shown to men who threw 20 or 30 per
cent. of their creditors overboard, what would Govern-
ment do for those men who slid not want anything of
the sort, but who wished to act honestly and fairly to
all? He did not think Government were acting fairly
to what ho would call the honest part of the community
of Ireland. He was only anxious to call the attention
of the House to the statemeet made by the Hon. and
he would not undertake this Bill.
Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, as to the
reasons why
Sir G. GREY said one of two things must be done,
either the Bill must be discussed on its merits, or the
discussion must bo postponed. The Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Henley) had made a speech on the merits of the
Bill—he should not follow that course, but he would
ask the House not to take the lion. and Learned Gentle-
man's interpretation of the Bill. As the discussion on
the merits was not desired he was willing to postpone i:.
He must, however, remark that Government did not,
as stated, oppose the wishes of Irish Members in this
matter, for no Irish Member had yet signified any
opinion. If it was the wish of Irish Members, or, in-
deed, of Honourable Members generally, to enter on
a discussion of the principles of the Bill now, lie
should not offer any opposition, though certainly
twelve o'clock was not the best time to commence
such a discussion. If time were lost it was not the
fault of Government, but must be attributed to the
course adopted by the Honourable Member for Newark.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said nothing was more un-
fair than the suggestion of the Hon. Member (Mr. Hen-
ley) at, to the intention of the Bill. There was a class
which this Bill would particularly serve, and that was
the puisne creditors. There was a class which it
would not serve, and that class was the great capi-
talists who hoped to go over to Ireland, buy land at less
than its value, and sell it so as to make a profit.—(Hear.)
Lord NAAS gave way to his Hon. Friend, because
he thought the question could be more satisfactorily dis-
cussed by the proposal made. But he hoped the House
would allow him to put off his statement for the present
until a more eligible opportunity.
Colonel DUNNE was convinced that the Bill, instead
of raising the value of estates in Ireland, would depress
it, and he was sure that no money, as was anticipated,
would be lent on estates.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL would move that the
debate be adjourned till Thursday next,
Sir L. O'BRIEN wished an order to bo sent to Ireland
to suspend the operation of the previous Bill, as it had
been proved that an eitato had recently been sold for a
year and a half's purchase.
The debate was then adjourned till Thursday next,
MEDICAL CHARITIES (IRELAND).
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,
Lord NAAS objected to the proposition.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said his object in moving the
second reading of the Bill was that he might have an op-
portunity of bearing remarks and objections before he
made his statement. He had no wish to press on the
Bill, but he thought it would be advisable to have the
second reading acceded to at the prevent time. He would
make a statement with reference to the demerits of the
present system.—(Great interruption.) He would not
go into a long statement respecting the demerits of the
existing system in Ireland, as he was satisfied every one
acquainted with the existing system condemned it. The
present system was unequal and expensive, and he pro-
posed to remedy those defects by a central board and
superintendence. This system was approved of by nearly
every one who was a friend to Ireland, and every ono ad-
mitted, to do any practical good, it was necessary to have
a central board. lie,promised to remedy the evils of the
existing system. The subject for their consideration
was, how they best could husband their resources, and

lessen, if it were posiblo, the amount of rates collected.
He believed that there might be a saving of 20 0001. a
year effec.,ted. The present subscriptions c mild scarcely
be called voluntary. Under the poor-rates not more than
one.hatf would be paid by the occupier—the other by
the owners of properly, who now paid, or who ought
to pay, subscriptions for such an object. In 1848,

hil) sun charged upon the poor-rate; for temporary
lever hospitals wAs 80,0001. This, however, was not a

mere question of economy—it was a question that in-
volved the first of charities—the attendance and care of
the poor. Various objections were made to the mea-
sure; but they were rather objections to details. He
wished flirty t. consult the interests of the medical pro-
fession, of whom he could not speak but in terms of the

highest praise. lie was anxious that the Bill should be
read pro forma, in order that he might introduce several
amendments.

Sir D. NORREYS had wished to save his Right Hon.
Friend the trouble of making a tit Ate anent. The Bill

contained a dangerous principle—that of establishing a
medical board separate from the general administration
of the poor. Re thought that all the medical charities
should be transferred to the poor-law board. Ho ob-
jected to the establishment of a medical board, as it was
only ruidering, to the vanity of the medical profession
in Ireland. Why did not the Government exercise the
power they had under the poor-law in establishing dis-
pensaries and fever hospitals?
Mr. G. A. HANIILTON said that there was a gene-
ral opinion that there should be a change in the ma-
nagement of medical charities in Ireland. He suggested
that his Right Hon. Friend should withdraw this Bill,
which was a very objectionable one, and introduce a
new Bill, when they might discuss a Bill upon principle.
Lord J. RUSSELL remarked the principle of the
Bill could be discussed afterwards, by having the Bill
now read pro forma. By that means they might dis-
cuss the best manner in which medical cnarities might
be managed.
After a few words from Mr. F. FRENCH and Lord
BERNARD, _ _ _

The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.

The Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill, as amended,
was considered, and the amendments agreed to.
The Indemnity Bill was passed through Committee.
EXTRAMURAL INTERMENTS.

Sir G. GREY rose to move, in pursuance of notice to
that effect, for leave to bring in a Bill to make better
provision for the interment of the dead in and near the
metropolis. The Right Hon. Baronet said the House was
aware that by an Act passed in the last session of Par-
liament power was given to the Board of Health, under
certain circumstances, to inquire into the state of the
burial-grounds in the metropolis and in other large and
populous places in the kingdom; and if the result of that
inquiry showed that the mode of conducting burials was
prejudicial to the public health, the Board was Surther
empowered to prepare a scheme, and submit the same
to Parliament, for prohibiting a practice so prejudicial
to the public health, and substituting for it the system
of extramural interments. In the exercise of
these powers the Board, in the course of the last
year, instituted extensive inquiries into the state of
the burial-grounds in the metropolis and its neighbour-
hood, and in certain towns of the United Kingdom; and
they had prepared, in pursuance of th• further powers
given to them, a scheme, which was embodied in the re-
port that bad now been some weeks upon the ►table of
the House, that scheme being applicable exclusively to
the metropolis and the immediate neighbourhood. The
board had considered this important subject in two
points of view—first with reference to the effects of the
existing practice upon the public health, and next its
effects upon the solemnity and decency of burials. At
that hour of the night (a qaarter to one) he should not
think of stating at length the purport or nature of the
evidence collected by the Board of Health, and which
formed the basis of the recommendations embodied in
the scheme contained in the report lying upon the table
of the House. That report had attracted much of the
public attention, and he believed that most Hon. Gentle-
men were aware of the nature and purport of the mass of
facts which had been collected by the Board of Health,
and upon which their report was founded, as well as the
Bill which he had now the honour to ask leave to intro-
duce. [The Right Hon. Gentlemen here read a passage
from page 50 of the report, giving a summary of the
facts which came under the notice of the board.]
Without entering further into the evidence con-
tained in the report, he said he would at once pro-
ceed to consider the general recommendations of the
Board of Health. The substance of those recommenda-
tions was the 'prohibition of interments within the me-

tropolitan districts, and, as a consequence, a complete
change in the practice of interments. After considering
various ways in which the practice might be altered,
they recommended the appointment of a commission,
expressly vested with powers for carrying out this object,
and which powers they then went on to enumerate.
The Bill which he had now to propose was based upon
this report, although it did not follow the recommenda-
tions of the board precisely in all their details. On the
present oeCasion it would be sufficient if be contented
himself by simply stating the main provisions of the
Bill, reserving matters of smaller importance and of
mere detail until the Bill had been printed, and placed
in the hands of Members. It was proposed in the first
instance, in accordance with the recommendation tf the
board, to form a district to be termed the " Metropolitan
Burial District," the parishes to be comprised within
which would be enumerated in the schedule of the Bill.
They constituted the district which was generally known
as the " Registrar-General's District," with the excep-
tion of some outlying parishes', which, on account of
their locality and other circumstances, it was
thought right should not be included. For this
district it was proposed that burial-grounds
should be provided within or without the district
to be placed under the control and management of the
parties who were to be entrusted with the execution of
the Act. It was proposed further to give power to these
parties to take any of the cemeteries which had already
been established under Acts of Parliament in the district,
upon making compensation to the companies to which
they belonged, with a view to shutting up those which,
upon inquiry, should appear unfit to be continued as
places of interment; bat with regard to others making ,
use of them as burial-grounds to be established under
the provisions of this Bill. Every such burial-ground so
to be provided would, like all the great cemeteries hi-
therto established, be divided—one portion being conse-
crated, with a suitable chapel, for the use of members of
the Established Church; the other part being left for in-
terments for persons of other religious denominations.—
(Hear, hear.) Power would also be given for setting
apart any portion of the burial-ground to the use of any
other Christian sect who, upon religious grounds, re-
quired a separate place of interment. After this, power
was to be given to the Queen in Council, upon the report
of the persons who would be entrusted with the execu-
tion of the Act, and after due notice, to order the dis-
continuance of all interments in the burial-grounds
and grave-yards within the district. And this pro-
hibition might from time to time be extended until
the system of interments should be altogether
discontinued throughout the metropolis, with a
saving of the existing rigbta in vaults, but
having regard to the necessary precautions for
the preservation of the public health. The Bill
then proposed that the inhabitants of the parishes whose
burial-grounds might be closed under the operation of
the Bill should have the same rights of interment in the
new grounds as they ha I in the present burial-grounds
within their parishes; and that power should be given,
without the expensive process called the faculty process,
to remove bodies from the old places of interment to the
new burial-grounds. The parties entrusted with the
execution of the Act would also be empowered to pro-
vide houses of reception for the bodies of deceased per.
sons—an arrangement which would be of peculiar be-
nefit to the poor residing in a confined atmosphere and
densly-crowded dwellings.—(Hear, hear.) One great
practical difficulty in the way of the adoption of a sys-
tem of extramural interment was felt to be, the placing
the poor in the same position with regard to distance as
they were at present. In order to remove this difficulty,
means might be devised and provided for the convey-
ance of bodies to the places of interment, and for con •
ducting funerals in those grounds at specified and mo-
derate rates.—(Hear, hear.) A large portion of the
revenue of the London clergy was at present derived
from burial fees; and justice obviously required that
compensation should be given both to the clergy and to
the official persons who were connected with the exist-
ing burial-grounds for the loss of fees which they
would incur by the proposed change of the law. With
regard to the clergy, looking at the large proportion of
their incomes which are composed of those fees, it had
been thought necessary to continue the compensation
to them beyond the existing incumbencies, as in some
parishes the clergy would be left almost without the
means of support ; but power would bo given for re-
vising, from time to time, the matter of compensation.
With regard to clerks and sextons, and other officers, it
was proposed that compensation should be given to the
toaure of the respective offices which they held. The
Board of Health, in their report, stated that the re-
ceipts for the interments in the new burial-grounds
would be ample to cover all the expenditure to be in-
curred under the Act. But as it would be necessary to
make provision for the immediate purchase of burial-
grounds, and for other expenditure, before any large
amount was received in the shape of fees, power would
be given to borrow money on the future payments under
the Act, and also upon the security of a rate which they
were to be authorised to levy, and which was not to ex-
ceed the annual amount of Id. in the pound, in the event
of the fees and payments being insufficient for the ex-
penditure. With respect to the parties to be entrusted
with the execution of the Act, the Board of Ilealtb
had recommended that a commission should be specially
constituted for that purpose. There were, however, ob-
vious objections to the creation of a new commission,
unless some indispensable necessity could be shown for
it; and it was thought by her Majesty's Government that
the members of the Board of Health were fully compe-
tent to the task; and upon the whole, in the first in-
stance, the very best parties for effecting the recommen-
dations which they themselves had made. To a get al
extent, also, the existing staff of that board might be
made available for the new Act. It was proposed that,
instead of constituting a new board, one paid member
should be added to the present board; and it was thought
that with this addition, and with the help of such sub-
ordinate officers as might be requisite, that board would
he competent to establish a system of extramural inter-
ments throughout the metropolis.—(Hear, hear.) The
House was aware that the Board of Health had only a
temporary existence, the period for its duration not
being extended beyond August, 1853; and it might
therefore be necessary eventually to continue the opera-
tion of the Bill by some other agency. This circurn-
stance,however,afforded a security that before the powers
of the Board of Health expired the attention of Par-
liament must be called to the working of this measure,
and an opportunity would be afforded for correcting any
defects which experience might have discovered in its
operation. Before he sat down he wished to express the
sense which he entertained of the ability and efficiency
with which the Board of Lleilth had discharged the