The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-03 00:00:00

LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 3, 1850.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 2.

Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (DEVIATIONS,
AMENDNIENT OF ACTS, AL fERATION
OF TOLLS, AND OF EAST LINCOLNSHIRE
RAILWAY TOLLS) BILL.
On the order of the day for the third re iding of this
Bill,
Lord CARRINGTON opposed the motion. The
landholders on the line had been induced to consent to
the Bill in 1846, on the ground of the lowness of the tolls.
By this Bill the company sought to raise the tclls and
thereby were violating frith. He moved that it he re-
committed in order t) give the opponents of the Bill an
opportunity of being heard.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the opponents of the
Bill had already had ample opportunities of being heard,
and he should press the third reading.
After a few words from the Duke of RICHMOND,
The Earl of GRANVILLE said that he should vote
for the third reading of the Bill.
Lord REDESDALE asked why the opposition to this
Bill did not take place earlier?—(Cheers.) He thought
no railway company bad any claim to come to Parlia-
ment to increase tolls. Many Bills had been csrried
solely on the ground of the low rate of tolls.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM had no objection to the Bill
generally; but with respect to an increase of tolls he
thought that some parties had been negligent in watching
the progress of the measure. The result of this increase
of tolls would be to cut off a great part of Lincolnshire
from the London• market, and he could only ac-
count for the delay of the opposition on the
ground of the dislike which private individuals
had to enter the lists against a powerful company.
He thought it would be but just to send.this Bill again
to a Committee.

KINNAIRD thought, that as another railway
running through the same district had obtained power
to increase their tolls, this Bill ought to be passed. To
recommit that Bill would be virtually to lose it.
Lord BE AUItIONT considered that this Bill wai
violation of agreement with the landowners, and they
would be exposed year after year to fight this company
if their Lordships admitted the principle that a railway
company might violate an understanding by raislng
their tolls. _ _

After a few worth from the Earl of DEVON,

_......,. _ _
should support
Lord STANLEY said that as the opponents of the
the third reading.
Bill had not made application to be heard in time be
Eal MAN VERS would vote fJr the re•committal of
the Bill.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE replied.
Their Lordships then divided, when there appeared—
Contents (for the' recommittal) '2 8
Non-contents ... 37
Majority against the recommittal... —9
The Bill was then read a third time and pa3sed.
EXPOSITION OF 1851.

*ISS
34

On our r,‘-admissioa to the gallery we found

Lord BROUGHAM moving for certain papers re•
lating to the exposition of 1851. He gave notice that he
should postpone his motio❑ on the subject to Thursday.
Lord CAMPBELL hoped his Noble and Learned
Friend would not postpone it beyond Thursday, because
he (Lord Campbell) was most anxious, as Lord Chief
Justice of England, to enter his solemn warning against
what ho had no hesitation in characterizing as certainly,
if not illegal, at least the unconstitutional proceedings
which were contemplated in this matter, and which
would inflict a great grievance on her Majesty's subjects.
Lord BROUGHAM would not postpone it beyond
Thursday, and he entirely agreed with his Noble Friend
in his view of this matter.
FACTORY BILL.

965

Lord STANLEY presented several petitions in fa-
vour of the Ten Rooms Bill.
In answer to a question from a NOBLE Loan,
The Duke of RICHMOND declared that he was deter-
mined to propose the clause which Llrd John Manners
had proposed in the House of Commons.
In answer to a question from the Earl of FE VER-
SHAM,
Th© Earl of GRANVILLE said that he should
cove the sccoud reading of the Bill on Mondly, and
take the discussion on the motion for going into Com-
mittee On the Monday following.
The Bishop of MANCHESTER presented four pe-
titions in favour of the principle of a Ten Hours Factory
Bill.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented an4l laid
on the table a report from the Commissioners of Public
Works.

EDUCATION.
The Earl of HARROWBY presented a very large
number of petitions from various places in the United
Kingdom, praying for an inquiry into the transactions
of the Committee of the Privy Council on Education.
The Noble Earl (who was very indistinctly heard all
through his speech) then proceeded to bring forward
the motion of which ho had given notice, for a. Select
Committee to inquire into the operation and effect of
the system under which the annual grant of public
money, for the purpose of education, is administered.
In doing so he said he had to entreat their Lordships'
particular attention to the case he had to introduce,
which was rather a complicated one, and one in
which much depended upon an examination of docu-
ments to make it all acceptable to their Lordships.
tie trusted, however, to be able to go into the
subject in such a manner as would induce
their Lordships to grant the Committee for which he
asked. That great question of education had received
the attention of botti Houses of Parliament for some
years past in a particular degree. The condition of the
country with respect to education had been found to be,
that every contribution from public and private sources
for the purposes of education had been exhausted. When
that discovery had been made various suggestions had
been thrown out as to the best mode of meeting the case.
There were parties in the first instance, who, aware of
the difficulties of combining any religious instruction
with a system of education, considering the various de•
nominations of religious bodies which existed in this
country, were disposed to throw aside the question of re-
ligion altogether, or leave it to the clergymen of the dif-
ferent religious persuasions; or endeavour to found some
great plan of education which would be useful to all and
offensive to none. But when both of these plans had
been tried they had both met with general disapproba-
tion. There was no other plan but that of endeavour-.
ing to educate the several Christian bodies of the people
on a religious system, and of contributing liberally
for that purpose. That was the only principle
which could be properly and justly carried
out. The educational training of men was a course
inseparable from religious influences. The response
which a proposition on that subject met a short time
since in another place had decided that point. The
experiment to devise a plan of education which should-
be useful to all, and yet distasteful to lame, would fail.
If they put the education of the people into the hands of
moment be afraid of going be-
those who would every
',end certain prescribed limits, they might have much
discretion, but they would have no zeal. Now, if they
undertook the principles of religious education, they
should carry out their ideas fully. They should let the
state carry out that principle from a full conviction of its
necessity, and iuterest its functions without scruple to
give full effimenev to that proposition. He thought he
could show their Lordships, however, two or three points
in which the state was not carrying out that principle.
lie did not move for that Committee as a matter of re-
proach to the Government, but fur the purpose of fa 1
inv- sOgatioa into the subject. Tho Noble Earl here
went into a brief detail of some transactions which hid
taksn place a few years ago between the National Board
and the Committee of Privy Council with respect to
schools in connexion with the Church of England. Ile
would not enter into the details of that eorrespontlenee.
There was oae great difficulty, however, which made it
el ar that the system could not go on. The recommen-
dations made by the Privy Council were such that the
schools could not adopt them. He did not state that
as a ground for inculpating the Government; but
the departure front the previous system, and the
discouragement of religious bodies, was one of the
first causes of discontent and complaint. What was the
snumber
i Butf clergy
erlgeYroad laity who bad a right to receive
a respect of education from the public
there-
Government said, there should be
always a committee elected in a particular way to re-
gulate the schools. They were inclined to subscribe
anag
many hundreds for the purposes of education, and only
wanted 25 per cent. from the Government. All they
em. He would ask, was
ent schools of which clergy-
men e should f
asked was that they might be at liberty to solicit the
n
the system which they had adopted necessary fir the
public welfare? Ho believed its result had been to se
state
r assistance
have
building
in-
duce parties to put limits .ta. their zeal. He should like
to have an opportunity of hearing those who had com-
plaints to snake give un account of what had been doing,
and that would be afforded: by the Committee for which
he sought. There were other points upon which he
conceived they should have an opportunity of investiga-
tion. They were professedly entering upon an experi-
ment. That such was the wise was evident from every
report which they received. Bat if they were not to
have the ailvanteee of legislation on that point, at least
let them have that of an investigation into the experi-
ment. The management of those who had the control
of the large fends devoted to that object was objec-
tionable, for the system was altered from day to day
on the most important matters without any sufficient
reason shown. The system of inspectors, too, was
one which had excited some attention. That was u sub-
ject in which the Church of England was not alone con-
cerned, for the Wesleyans and the Roman Catholics
were equally interested in it, and all were equally dis-
satisfied with it. That was a matter which required to
be watched from time to time, and an investigation
into the whole system from time to time by such a
Committee as he proposed was a matter of useful inves-
tigation. They had also to consider whether the system
of inspection was really working out the objects fhr
which it was intended. He would ask them what was
the cost of the instruction they were providiege—
(Hear.) They should look to the machinery they had,
with the view to ascertain its working. In one of the
inspector's reports it appsared that, in the course of a
recent tour ho had made, seven young schoolmasters
were entering or had gone into holy orders, and the
schools would accordingly be deprived of the aervicaa of
these persona. With respect to tho female schools, they
were required to give un account of the introduction of
the Anglo-Saxon language, to know the principal books
in that language, and the modifications it had undergone
from the Jima of the battle of Hastings to the time of
Elizabeth. What books was it possible for a young
woman or a girl to read which would enable her to
give an answer to such questions?—(Hear.) He thought
it would be far better if the instruction were confh.e I
to two or three leading subjects, insteai of being
extended to a number, many of which were uniinpor?aut,
He believed that they were giving a very superficial
character to the instruction of the training schools. Their
own inspectors were shrinking from their duty because
it extended to too many particulars, and proposed to

limit it to one or two leading points. He hoped the
Noble Marquis would see the necessity of inquiry, with
the vie se of aseerteining what am: udraeats could be
made in the present system. The Noble Earl, who was
almost wholly inaudible throughout his remarks, con-
cluded by propesing the resolution.
The iNlarquis of Lt NSDOWNE admitted that the
Noble Earl had brought the subject before their Lord-
ships in a tone which was wholly unobjectionable. It
was hardly possible for any one who ha i not occupied
the official situation which he himself held to form a cor-
rect idea of the difficulties attending the question. He
had certainly no wish to ba an autocrat on this subject;
but as regarded a number of schools, spread over the
country, if there was not a person to exercise something
like authority and control, from week to week, and from
day to day, the whole machinery of the system of inspec-
tion, the importance of which could not be too highly rated,
would at once be stopped. If that inspection had been ex-
tended, it had only been in consequence of the utility
which had resulted from it. It was highly honourable
to the inspectors that, up to that moment, hardly any-
thing like a complaint had been made against them.
His attention had been again and again directed to a dis-
position on the part of the inspectors to make a higher
examination than the nature of the education admitted
of. If persons of great educational acquirements were
selected for inspectors, it was natural to suppose that
they would be inclined to raise the standard of examina-
tion. On making inquiries in some cases he had received
explanations to the effect, that although the inspectors
felt it to be their duty to take the books they found in
use in the schools, and to ask the scholars questions out
of these books, as an intellectual exercise, yet it did not
follow that theirreports were founded upon the answers
made to their questions. No matter what amount of
intellectual qualification the inspectors might have dis-
covered in the children, it was not by this intellectual
qualification, taken alone, that they established their
standard ef merit. They had been again and again requested
to make the general good conduct of the scholars, and
their moral and religious knowledge—as ascertained by
the masters, and more particularly by the clergyman—
a chief element in their reports. With respect to
school-mistresses and female schools, his endeavour
had been to form such a system of examination
as should not be liable to exception, and one which would
include an inquiry into their household qualifications.
The individual selected for that purpose was Mr. Cook,
than whom no person was better qualified to carry out
the intentions of the Committee of Privy Council, and
he hoped that his exertions would be attended with suc-
cess. Now, with regard to the jealousies which existed
in the minds of a great number of persons on the subject
of this system of education, he hal received the most
concurrent testimony from all quarters of the benefit
which the clergy had derived from the assistance
afforded them; and, since the moment when the harmony
which existed between the Privy Council and the Na-
tional Society was interrupted, not less than 100 appli-
cations had been made by clergymen for nssistence.—
(Hear, hear.) Then, with respect to the management
clauses, the points of difference had been narrowed iu a
very considerable degree. These clauses had their
origin in the management of the National Society, and
the inspection was first sought for by that society. The
clauses were at that time drawn up nearly in their pre-
sent shape. In fact they had only been altered so as to
meet one solitary exception. The management clause
vested the management of schools in local committees;
but there was one clause which was meant to apply
to a particular case, and in that case the clergyman was
left the sole judge, not only with regard to spiritual
but to temporal matters; but it was required that
a sufficient case should be made out to justify that devia-
tion from the general system. He apprehended that it
was not the intention of Parliament in making this grant
to vest the entire control in all matters, temporal as well
as spiritual, in the hands of the clergymen, as opposed
to the lay members of the Church.—(liear, hear.) That
was a pretension which he did not consider within the
scope and intention of the grant, which was made for
the promotion of education generally; and if any special
authority was given to the clergymen of the Church of
England in temporal as contra-distinguished from
spiritual matters, equal authority must be given to the
Catholic priest, to the Dissenters, and to the Presley -
teriene. Now the intention of the Legislature was not
to place this grant in the hands of the ministers of reli-
gion. It was, undoubtedly, intended to secure their co-
operation on spiritual coecerna, and that co-operation had
been provided for and obtained.—(Heer, hear.) He was
;sled that the Noble Earl, in alluding to the jealousies
which existed, had alluded to the cause of the Wesleyans.
Now what had happened with respect to that body? He
believed no one denied them the merit of great zeal
and attachment to their religious opinions. In the
first instance, they exhibited a great deal of jealousy
on the subject of these clauses ; but the result of the
communications which had taken place was that they
were now perfectly contented, and were receiving
assistance from the Privy Council.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been etated elsewhere that the Church of England
was placed under some disadvantage as compared with
other religious sects. Now, as far as it was possible to
introduce the same words into the regulations, it had
been done. Of course where a sect did not acknowledge
a bishop the word " bishop" could not be introduced—
where no elders existed the word " elder" could not be
inserted—where there was no priest the word " priest"
could not be given. But where there was any recognised
authority all parties were treated precisely in the same
manner. He believed the principle adopted by the
Privy Council had been singularly favourable to the
Church of England. Between Jan. 1, 1848, and June
30, 1850, the number of schools assisted was 689, of
which number no less than 533 were Church schools—
(Hoar, hear)—and of the number of schools now exist-
ing which had received grants 80 per cent. consisted of
Church schools.—(Hear, hear.) He could lay before
their Lordships a great number of strong testimonies
from most eminent and distinguished clergymen, who
had thought it an act of duty and gratitude to acknow-
ledge the benefits which they bad derived from the
assistance afforded by the Privy Council; but he would
content himself with mentioning one or two instances.
The clergy of Preston, who wore convened to petition
against the system adopted by the Privy Council, after
hearing it fully explained, subscribed a declaration as
to its utility, and that declaration was signed by seven-
teen out of nineteen.—(Bear, hear.) He also had
before him the opinion of Archdeacon Hare, who, in his
charge to the clergy, said that in the correspondence
between the National Society and the Privy Council, the
latter shows so conciliatory a spirit and such readiness '
in altering and modifying whatever was objected to, as
to afford a ground for hoping that all real difficulties
would soon be removed; and he felt convinced that they
would soon have been removed but for the agitation
which had been so pertinaciously maintained. After
describing the infinitesimal points on which the differ-
ences turned, the Archdeacon went on to say that it
might be urged that the fault lay with the Privy
Council, who ought to have considered these points, but
it was not usual for a body to alter its laws and rules
except when some ground existed for their doing so, nor
ought the Church to require them to take such a step
unless there was such ground. Now, the Committee of
Privy Council had provided from the first for all cases
in which the religious principles of any party could be
involved, by laying down that appeals on all religious
questions should be to the bishop exclusively; and it
would not be becoming to alter its well-considered rules
for the sake of au unreasonable prejudice. Besides it
was asserting the important principle that laymen ought
to exercise jurisdiction on Church matters without
being placed under the tutelage of ecclesiastical authority.
He (the Marquis of Lansdowne) held it to be of great
importance to invite and to secure the co-operation of
laymen as far as it could be obtained in all works of this
description.—(Hear, hear.) That was all that was
sought for by the management clauses which had at-
tracted so much attention—au invitation to the lay
body as well as the clergy to take part in the govern-
meat of schools, while the religious interference was
carefully secured to the clergyman. He could see
nothing objectionable in such a system—nothing that
required further adjustment upon this one point, when
everything had been conceded to the various bodied of
the clergy on this subject. He believed that from day
to day clergymen were becoming more seneible of the
value of the system of inspection which had been es-
tablished. The inspectors had been invited again and
again to take a more active part in giving advice and
assistance in the administration of schools. Tney had
been instructed never to take such a part unless in-
vited to do so by the committees and the clergymen
themselves, and they had been continually invited.—
(Hear.) With respect to the assertion that the system
of examination was carried too far, and the allusions
which had been made to the qe.eations put for the
purpose of eliciting all the details connected with the
battle of Hastings, he would merely say that the system
ought not to be judged of from one or two cases in which
particular questions had been put. Education did not
stand very high some twenty or thirty years ago. On
one occasion, when he was benighted on Salisbury Plain
he sought shelter for the night in a place where there
was some tan or a dozen houses. On inquiring for a
book, he was told there was only one belonging to the
school, and with that book he endeavoured to amuse him-
self during the night. The title of the book was "An
Account of all the Events that hare occurred since the
Creation of the World, specifying the Names of the
Mayors of Salisbury and the Mayoralty in which each
Event occurred."--(Loud laughter.) Ho was as desirous
as the Noble Earl that a full and searching inquiry
should be instituted into the system, but when he recol-
lected that this was the 2d of July, and that any inquiry
now made must necessarily be a partial one, and teat it
could not be attended with any practical results, he
felt a strong objection to the appointment of a Commit-
tee at the present moment. He trusted the Noble Earl
would defer the inquiry until the season when full jus-
tice could be done to the subject, and when it could be
instituted and carried on in both Houses at the same
time. He entreated their Lordships not to accede to the
appointment of the Committee at the present time. As
the Most Reverend Prelate at the head of the Church
was not present he presumed he could not be convinced
of the necessity of the Noble Earl's motiou.—(Hear, nod
a laugh.) He (the Marquis of Lausdowne)gveastlisahtuosa,c
ntttpia::rrnneice,falir-.
pre-
pared to lay every document connected with the subject
before the House, and hereafter viva voce evidence might
be taken for its more complete elucidation. With re-
spect to the schoolmasters for workhouses, it was
thought they could be more effectually supplied by
en
cytswhpleheeearicregishyanai(ti,
titiunder. establishmenteedrtehpdteeh perfect
oeocmfet
o Churchteal
hqi
deuoesaptryl
arisEtottyiei
on) system
nbsl
eiatttnoi
,vffdite;
eiwnt,aeaharrii teaching
Paella
personsii
in that
go
dif-
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m w
aasst e
rt rshrodv,
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for
tball);dra:
Sheller Hall at presentetwhshuoo:pdid not Attend tserviceat
30 conducted, loif.,htmheenCthv,u,rhcohr.c.
school-masters
,)
ouses,
right
of hseae ns
ipn superior i ao:rlcharacter.—(llear.)
taon de
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education
dooiltt:r
einkbd
ahegth
given school
lydwarzespor
ens() and where the
Lord LYTTELTON regretted the opposition given

by the Noble Marquis to the appointment of a Commit-
tr=eaus, he lAtevel that an inquiry of this nature

would be the only chance of arriving at an sun cabin and
satisfactory decision of the question.—(Hear, hear.)
This was a subject on which the greatest difference of
opinion existed throughout the country. It was true
that very many of the clergy and many schools had
availed themselves of this assistance. They knew llost
the Government had a long purse, :end of all the difficul-
ties that existed with respect to objects of a benevolenr,
character they knew that there was none gre Lter vian
the permanent maintenance of schools.—(!lsar, hear.)
It was therefore natural that they should avail them-
selves of the assistance thus offered to them. But it did

not follow that the persons receiving those grants were
altogether satisfied with the arrangements under which
the advances were made. On every point of detail, ex-
cept the compulsory clauses, he thought the proceed •
inns of the Privy Council de lerving of approbation.—
(Heir, hear.) But on the simple ground of expediency
he considered the compulsory imposition of the manage-
ment clauses upon Church schools the greatest error
that could have begin committed.—(Hear, hear.) The
Government could have no wish but to work with the
great body of the Church and the clergy in the matter
of education. But the system on which the manage-
ment clauses was founded was a decided innovation.
fhe system, after a long and severe contest between
the Government and the heads of the Church. was set-
tled, and worked as well as p )ssible for seven or eight
years, and he believed every one of the additional im-
provements might have been graf.ed upon it without
the management clauses. The main difference between
the Committee of Privy Council and the Na-
tional Society was the question iof whether the ap-
peal should be allowed to schools receiving aid from
the Government on all matters from the local mana-
gers to the bishop of the diocese. He thought the
Government wrong in objecting to such provision when
the local managers wished for such appeal. But a point
of much more importance was, not whether there should
be an appeal on all points to the bishop, but whether
any system should ha recognised which allowed and
proceeded on the distinction between what is religious
and what is secular. The common opinion was, that, in
matters of instruction, what is secular is the great body
of instruction, and that what is religious is the exception.
But that, he apprehended, was a great mistake. Except
in a few of the mere elementary branches of education,
there was scarcely one into which religion did not enter.
The Roman Catholics, in their controversy with the Go-
vernment, acceded to the proposal that the distinction
between what is religious and what is secular should be
allowed; but they stood on the point as to who should be
the arbitrator, and preserved that to their bishop.—
(Hear.) In that way the religious safety of the school
was perfectly attended to. What the committee of the Na-
tional Society first asked for was that the minister should
have the mural and religious superintendence of the
school. These were the points which required investi-
gation and called for improvement. The introduction
of the management clauses had shown the insecure and
unsatisfactory mode in which the funds were adminis-
tered. The system might have worked well, and did
work well, so long as the Church had confidence in the
intentions of Government ; but matters being in an un-
certain state, the system required to be carefully looked
into. He had urged upon Government the necessity of
legislating on this point, and hoped nothing would. be
done of consequence by the Privy Council until the pro-
posed proceeding was submitted to Parliament. in the
same manner as was done by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners. Another point which required consideration
was the system of the normal school of Kneller Hall,
which was regulated solely by the civil power. The Privy
Council had the solo management, and the Church did
not appear to be consulted in the arrangement. He
hoped their Lordships would give their approval to this
moderate measure, and consent to an inquiry, which
; might afford the materials for the basis of some more
satisfactory arrangement.
The Earl of KINNAIRD thought their Lordships
I ought to accept the proposition of Government, which
F was to appoint a commission at the commencement of
next session. If the Committee was now agreed to, no•

thing definite could be arrived at, owing to the advanced
period of the session. If the Noble Earl did not consent
to the proposition of Government, he would thereby
show he was only the organ of one party—the National
Society. Their Lordships were asked t 3 revert to the
old system, which had already been tried and found to
work unfavourably. Ho hoped, therefore, their Lord-
ships would not listen to any such proposition. With
respect to the claims preferred by the Bishops, it would be
found the Privy Council had already made great conces-
sions, so far as related to the discharge of schoolmasters or
schoolmistresses who might be proved to entertain or
inculcate objectionable tenets. It was advisable in
his opinion, to give the National Society power to
establish schools where needed, and he thought no dan-
ger was to be apprehended from that course, as it was
well known the high party in the Church had great con-
trol over the proceedings of the National Society. The
Noble Earl had dwelt on the danger of over-educating
the labouring classes; but in Scotland the poor were
generally well-educated through the parochial school=,
and no mischief was anticipated or felt from that prac-
tice. Ho would instance the case of two of his female
servants, to whom he gave access to a good library.
The works they chose for their recreation were Milton's
" Paradise Lost," and " Marmion."—(Hear, and
laughter.) If the request of the National Society was
granted they would have to grant the requests of other
parties—dissenting societies, for instance. The numbers
of churchmen and dissenters in England he found to be
—taking the population at 13,000,000—dissenters,
8,400,000—(0h, and laughter)—churchmen the re-
mainder. He considered that, under the circumstances,
and for the reasons alleged by the Noble Marquis, he
was bound to give his opposition to the motion.
The Bishop of SALISBURY said no one had endea-
voured to promote a harmonious co-operation between
Church and State in educational matters more zealously
than himself. Ten years ago, when an interruption of
that harmony occurred, he had attempted to mediate be-
tween the Noble Marquis and other Noble Lords and
the Right Rev. Prelates by proposing terms of conci-
liation and concession, which had resulted in a compro-
mise, Ile did not mean to approve of the extent to
which the present Act had been carried out; but he
thought it would be advisable to enter upon an inquiry
into the whole subject in a calm and conciliatory spirit.
He could not but look upon the system of education as
carried out by the National Society with public money,
is , connexion with the various religious bodies, as a
great experiment. He admitted that some parts of the
system were worthy of approval, but at the
same time, he thought the system called for inquiry,
and was ant.ceptible of great improvement. The expe-
riment with respect to the training schools particularly
required to be watched with great care, and though he
gladly admitted that much good had arisen, still he
could not help stating that a growing dissatisfaction was
manifesting itself in many quarters. To this point and
to other points the attention of the Committee might be
directed with benefit. A large body of persons had
been educated for these schools, and the question arose
whether education had not been pushed too far in this
direction. Then he believed that the instruction which
bad been given in some instances had not been of ttiat
sort, or so useful (we understood) as could be wished.
lie should look to this inquiry fur the removal of much
unfounded apprehension and alarm, and for giving secu-
rity ageiast the introduction of any changes without
affording an opportunity to the Church and Parliament
of expressing their opinion, and the result would be, the
attainment of that object which the Noble Marquis, no
less than himself, had in view—namely, the sound edu-
cation of the people, by giving assistance to voluntary
efforts. On these grounds he would support the motion.
The Earl of caw RESTER said there was a time
when he would have been dispoted to press such an in-
quiry more earnestly than now, and that was when the
Committee of the Privy Council might have established
a system of education without the knowledge or consent
of Parliament. His only objection to the motion of his
Noble Friend was, that at the present period of the
session it would be quite impossible for such an inquiry
to lead to any satisfactory result. He doubted if his
Noble Friend was fully aware cf the immense mass of
evidence which it would be necessary to bring before the
Committee. With reference to the question of arbitra-
tion, he thought it might lead to inconvenience if all
disputes were referred to the bishop; and ho also felt
that it would be very unsatisfactory to have two systems
of arbitration. But there was another Point to which
ho would shortly advert. The members of the Church
objected that any man should found schools and Lave
the power of dictating to future generations in what
way they should be managed, and to claim of grant of
puolic money to assist him in carrying out any scheme
which his whim might suggest. It was, therefore,
necessary that the Government should exercise some
control over the conveyances of property destined for
such purposes. He hoped this laxity and freedom of
choice would be resisted.
The Bishop of OXFORD said the deep interest which
he took in the subject under discussion must be his apo-
logy for addressing a very few words to their Lordships.
In the first place, he must express his gratification at the
tone in which the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Lans-
downe) had answered the speech of the Noble Lord op-
posite (the Earl of Harrowby), a tone which had been
preserved throughout the debate, with, perhaps, a sin-
gle exception. That exception he could not but regret,
feeling that this was a national question, and should be
free from all party views.—(Hear, hear.) But there
was one ground of objection which had not yet been
dealt with. The Church had been charged with a dread
of perfecting education. But this was not the feet. God
forbid! lie, and those who even went beyond him in
n
blaming the system, desired to see the education of the
people made pure and perfect. The Noble Mar l •
had
alluded to the jealousy of the National Societe
who acted with it of the proceedings of the G
and their wish to keep the laity of the Societe
,aecinrudhl sm those
t ,
e Church of Eng-
land out of the management of schools, which they
wished to confine t ) clergymen. Ile could assure the
Noble Marquis that he did not believe, and he claimed
some right to know, that any such jealousy existed, or
any suspicion of the co-operative and joint management
of schools being given to the laity. But they had rea-
sonable ground of suspicion nevertheleis. They feared
the interference, not of the laity, but of the State. Ho
did not share to the full in all these suspicions, and he
had faced many who, in an exaggerated way, had put
forward these suspicions, and engaged in argument on
the other side. But ho must take leave to say he thought
there were grounds of suspicion. First of all, this move-
ment began with the position of establishing normal
schools which should exclude all religious teaching, and
it became necessary to watch that. They were not
going back to that which was the originally avowed in-
tention. With reference to the arbitration, he could not
ungerstand the justice of prohibiting all reference to the
bishop of the diocese, even where the founder desired
such au appeal to b i made, nor could he see why that
which was granted to a Socinian or a Roman Catholic
should be refused to members of the Church of England.
Great objections were made against allowing the exercise
of any discretion on the part of those by whom these cha-
rities were founded; but by adopting such a prineipl