The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF COIVIIIONS.—(YESTERDAY.)
EXPENSES OF THE PERSIAN WAR.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER pre-
sented the estimates to the amount of 500,0001. for the
expenses of the war with Persia, and also of 500,0001.
towards the military and naval operations in China, and
moved that they be referred to the Committee of Supply.
He also gave notice that in the course of the present
month he should move a resolution in Committee of
Ways and Means with the view of founding upon it a
bill for continuing the present duties upon tea and sugar
as fixed by the Act of last session for two years from the
let of April next.
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the first time the house
had received any intimation of the war with Persia
being at a conclusion was when they called upon to
pay the bill. (Hear.) He thought the house would
abdicate its functions, and would be unworthy of the
name of the English House of Commons if they did not
reprobate such conduct at the proper time. Such a
thing had not occurred in the whole history of :the
House of Commons, from 1640 to the present day, and it
had been reserved for a so-called liberal Government
with the present Prime Minister at its head, to throw a
slur and a stigma on the House of Commons. If the
house submitted to the conduct of the Government in
this instance, it would show that the noble lord had a
better appreciation of them than he (Mr. Roebuck) had,
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY said that he understood,
in answer to a question which he had addressed to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the grant to be moved
for the Persian war was 265,0001. He wished to know
whether the 500,0001. now named in the estiinates was
to be in addition to that 265,0001., or whether the
smaller sum were included in the greater. He had un
derstood, also, that the Indian Government were to bear
half the expenses, and he wanted to know, therefore,
whether 1,000,0001. would cover the whole expenses of
the Persian war ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it would be unusual and inconvenient. for the house
to enter into a premature discussion upon the estimates
being laid upon the tible. He had merely laid the
estimates on the table at this time as a matter of conve-
nience, and he would only state, in answer to the
question of the hon. baronet, that when he stated that
the amount to be asked this session would be 265,0001,
it was early in the session, before the termination of the
war, before the signature of the treaty of peace, and
upon the best data to which he then bad access. The
sum which he now stated was inclusive of, and not ad-
ditional to, that sum. It would be the entire demand to
be made upon the ;louse this session, and it would re-
place the advances made by the India Board.
Mr. F. SCOTT said that by the peculiar fozin of the
expression used by the right hon. gentleman the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, limiting his observations to the
present session, he would seem to infer there was a fur-
ther sum to be demanded in respect of this war upon a
future occasion. When the right hon. gentleman said
that it was not usual to raise a discussion up3n laying
the estimates upon the table, ha (Mr. Scott) must ob-
serve that nothing could be more unusual than the course
which the right hon. gentleman himself had adopted
with regard to this question. As the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield bad truly said. the first intima-
tion of the affair which had been given to the house
was that there would be 265,0001, to be paid, and that
intimation was given to them after the war had been
concluded, withoutany information baying been afforded
to the country that such a thing had been undertaken.
Wasn't .that somewhat unusual ? The rigbt hon. gen-
tleman complained that anyone should call attention to
the subj et because be had simply doubled the sum
which he first stated that the country would be called
upon to pay, and then he had guarded his answer to the
hon. baronet in such a manner as to imply that even
double the sum was but an instalment, and that in.anc-
tiler session the country would be asked for some un-
known amount for this unknown war. He wished dis-
tinctly to be informed whether this 500,000/. was the
whole charge which the country would be called upon to
pay for the Persian war. lie thought that the course
which had been pursued with regard to the whole aflaT
indicated more forcibly than anything that bad before
occurred, the servile condition of the House of Commons.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
he did not ask the house now to agree to any vote. He
had merely presented the estimate, and had moved that
it be referred to the corn ittee of supply, which was the
proper place for the consideration of the estimate, When
the Government asked the committee to agree to a vote
upon the -übj-ct, they would give a full statement of the
case, which would involve among other things, an an-
swer to the question of the hon. gentleman who hadj est
sat down.

Sir J. PAKINGTON rose to order. Wednesdays
were, by the rules of the house, devoted to orders, and
the right hon. gentleman the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, no doubt not anticipating any discussion had in-
terfered with the regular orders of the day by making a
motion up ,n a most important subject, which was ex-
tremely likely to lead to a discussion, that motion more.
over, being made witaout the slightest notice whatever,
without being placed on the business paper, and when
no one had the least reason to suppose that the question
of the expenses of the war with Persia would be I kely
to come on. (Hear, hear.) He begged to call the
attention of the Speaker to the circumstances under
which this motion had been made, and he submitted
that the proceeding bad been in error ab initio. (Sty J.
Graham.—" Move that it be postponed.") Under all
the circurnstaeces he should move that the debate be
adjourned. (Hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that his right hen, friend
the Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken no course in
this matter which was not perfectly usual and regular.
Ou presenting the estimates he had made a merely for-
mal motion, which it was neither customary nor neces-
sary to give any notice of. It was a motion which never
gave rise to any debate, and the only thing which bad
been unusual in the present case was that on a merely
formal motion being made a debate had arisen.
Sir J. GRAHAM and Mr. BUOILANA.N rose together ;
but there being general calls for the former Mr. Bucha-
nan gave way. The right hon. gentleman said that he
rose to speak to the point of order. The opinion of the
Speaker had been asked upon it by the right hon.
baronet the member for Droita ich, and he (Sir J. Gra-
ham) was about to suggest what he thought would have
made this proceeding perfectly regular on a Wednesday.
He agreed that it was unusual on bringing up an esti-
mate and moving that it be referred to the committee of
supply that a debate should arise, and he suggested that
if the estimate bad been presented at any period after a
quarter to 6 o'clock the proceeding would have been per.
fectly regular. No debate, according to the rules of the
house, could then have arisen. The motion would have
been taken as a Motion of course, and the irregularity
into which they bad now fallen would have been avoided.
But certainly it was open, he imagined, to any member
to hide a debate on the motion to refer so large an esti-
mate of expenditure to the committee of supply, pre-
sented under circumstances so unusual as those on
which comment had been made by the honourable mid
learned member for Sheffield. He did not think there-
fore that the Government could be surprised if a debate
should arise under such' circumstances, and it ap•
peered to him to be almost challenging discussion to pre-
sent the estimate at a time when it was open to debate.
Under the present circuumstences, he thought that the
proper course would be to agree to the motion of the
right hon. member for Droitwich, in order that the
house might proceed with the orders of the day.
(" Hear," and cries of " chair.")
Sir G. GREY-said that his right hon. friend who had
just sat down had implied that the course which had
been taken by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was un-
usual. Now, he (Sir G. Grey) believed it to be the
universal practice of every Chancellor of the Exchequer,
before the house proceeded to the ordinary business of
the day, to present the estimates which were intended to
be considered afterwards in the committee of supply.
The time for doing that was not, he contended, a late
bour of the evening, or just before the adjournment of
the house; but the period selected was always before
the house proceeded to the public business of the day.
They had now been discussing for two hours a private
bill, which took precedence of all the other,business, and
immediately that discussion ended his right hou. friend
presented the estimates, He believed that the course
which bad been taken was perfectly in accordance with
precedent, both winh respect to presenting the estimates
and moving that they be referred to the Committee of
Supply, because unless they were so referred the com-
mittee could take no cognisance of them. [Sir James
Graham—" On a Wednesday ?") Yes ' • on any day.
During the 25 years that he had been in Parliament he
never remembered a discussion taking place upon the
presentation of an estimate, and upon the making of the
necessary motion to give the committee of supply cog-
nisance of that estimate. (Hear, bear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he had intended to present these estimates on the
previous evening, and that he bed brought them down to
the house for that purpose, at the usual time, intending
to lay them on the table before the business commenced.
He mentioned his intention at the time to the Speaker,
and went down to the bar, expecting that he should be
called. The Speaker, however, drd not see him, and
therefore his name was not called, otherwise the esti-
mates would have been presented then. He might add
that he was not aware of any reason why the estimates
ahotrld not be presented on a Wednesday as well as on
any other day. ' •
Te
1e
SPEAKERthsae Eidxtchhaeci
that
the
erigiahttimbaotne.dgheniatlieamtean
hu
at to presentthe
bar tohfe
these estimates
e fyoer
es ttehred ay,bu
commencementt not a
seeing f
tpubliche r right
businessgyeensttlee=
lie believedheomittedt to callit
h bad
dhe
beennam name of
universal practice, when a Minister appeared at the bargby
with an estimate, that on his name being called the
lion( h
him Chancellor
of
Speaker he should be permitted to
present the estimate
to the house ; and the motion that the estimate be re-
ferred to a committee of supply had been considered as
a motion of course. Therefore he himself should have
considered that what was new, if not irregular, on the
present occasion rather was that a motion so generally
received as a motion of coarse should have keen turned
into a motion creating a debate, It was for the house to
decide whether there was anything in this proceeding
which interfered with the regular course of the business,
but nothing struck him as being irregular in the motion
made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. BUCHANAN proceeded, amid cries of " Order 1"
to call attention to the commercial inconvenience arising
from constant alterations of the dates when oertain duties
on tea were to take effect.

Sir G. GREY- trusted that the motion for the ad-
journment of the debate would not now be pressed.
ST J. GRAHAM thought the motion for the ad-
journment might be withdrawn, after a hat had fallen
from the Speaker and the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The motion for the adjournment of the debate was
then withdrawn, and the proposed estimates were refer-
red to a committee 01 supply.