The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-02 00:00:00

to augment the numbers enjoying the franchise, and that
influence would not prevail to the same extent in the
egriculturel districts. So little explanation had been
given by the Government as to the basis or grounds en
which they placed the franchise at 81., that he was not
in a situation to judge of their motives in making it so
low in amount. He confessed that he had great fear
that a majority of those upon whom the franchise would
be conferred would be subjected to indirect influence at
elections, Land was money in Ireland, and that man
who paid :71. or 81. for his holding might be taken
as working for the lowest rate of wages, and, con-
seqaentiv, could not be c insidered independent. The
Noble Lord (Eliot) when he was a Member of the Irish
Government introduced a m, mir) with the object of
establishing in that country a franchise similar to the
English franchise—he proposed that the occupying fran-
chise should be 301., and he made it up by proposing that
the freehold qualification should be W. But there was a
great difference between an occupation of 301. and an
occupation of al St. holding, and he did not consider that
the latter was a franchise which it was desirable to give
to Ireland in order to obtain an independent constituency.
If they increased the amount of the franchise they might
reduce the number of the constituency, but the effect
would beta provide a wholesome stimulus to the indus-
try of the country, 83 that others might qualify them-
selves for obtaining it. As he was called upon, without
any political or party feeling on the subject, to decide,
he should say that in the present social condition of Ire-
land it was not advisable that the franchise should be
fixed at se low an amount.—(Hear.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE gave the Right Honour-
able Gentleman credit for the best int mtions
towards Ireland while opposing the proposition
of the Government. He apprehended that there
was bat one opinion in that House as to the necessity
of doing something. The state of the franchise in Ire-
!aid was at present such that it was a complete satire
upon representation. The question was, hew were they to
apply themselves to the case, and which was the be st method
of remedying the existing evil ? The House wont 1 re-
member that by the Reform Bill a 10/. franchise was con-
ferred; that narrowed inst?ad of extending the consti-
tuency, and they gradually dwindled away until they were
now reduced to little more than 30,000. How, then, were
they to get a franchise for the geople of Ireland? If they
connected it with tenure, let them put it as low as they
tale used they would never be able to get a constituency;
there would always be an indisposition on the part of
the landlords to grant leases, and that would be in-
crossed. The question fiat, whether the 81. franchise
they now proposed was extravagantly low as c enpered
with the 10/. which it was, intended to confer by the
Reform 1311. He was of opinion that the proposed
franchise was higher, rather than below, the former
10/. franelii,,e. The next question was, whether the
numhcr t ) be enfranchised would he excessive? The
prop n fen of electors at present, as compared with the
male. a 4.11 t poputatiee, was little more than three per
cent. If they meant to do what was right end 'air, they
would ha obliged to add greatly ti the number. The
nu veer wlsieh it was celculated would be created by the
Bill eas about 267,000, being about fifteen per cent. ( f
,he irate ;dolt population; and if they stopped st any
,usaller numbt,r,!here weul I be just ground of complaint
on the part of the Irish people. It appeared to him
that the aight Hon. Gentle.nau (Mr. Goulburn) took
rather extraval.art view of the number f voters in
the towns not returning representatives to that I 3 Rase,
and in proof of th it he would refer to the ret ins laid
on the table of the House cf the number of psrsens rated
et 81. and upwarir. He did not think that there was
asythir,; unra;r, or unreasonable, or dangerous, in the
proposition cif the Government. He trusted, therefore,
he House would not accede to the amendment of the
[lon. Member for the University c f Dublin.
Mr. R. H. FOX said the Right Hon. Gentlemen had
set great store on the creation of an independent ceneei-
ruency in Ireland, and fir that reason it was that he
(Mr. Fox) 11r3; anxious to extend the frenchisr as much
as possible. He believed that the existing 10/. fre -
hollers were not more intelligent than the cams whom
it was propose Ito create by the present Bill. Indeed
he did riot know anything more miserably dependent
than the 101. freeholders, where the comftuencies were
small. The great body of the non-electors throughout
the country exercised a wild right of control, and as-
slimed to themselves the name ( f the country. On the
other hand, bodies of the electors were dragged by their
landlords to vote as they pleased to dictate, and to such
an extent had this gone that the freeholders in many
cases looked uron the franchise as a burdensome privi-
lege, of which they did not wish to avail themselves. The
real remedy was such an ext nsion of the franchise as
would enable them to disregard the influence of the land-
lord or the intimidation of the " county."—(ilea-.)
Mr. A. STAFFORD complimented the Noble Lord
and the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland upon the
very temperate speeches they had made, but observe 1
that they had spent a considerable time in laying down
propositions which no one had attemp'ed to deny, and
in drawing fale inferences which no one had disputed.
The Noble Lord had urged that there was nothing in the
numbers of the constituency proposed to be created that
could alarm either side of the House. The aeswer of
his (Mr. Staffe:ere) aide of the House was, that it was
not the number, but the quality of the electors they ob-
jected to. The reel question before the house was,
should the figure 8 be inserted in the clause, but neither
the Noble Lord nor the Right Hon. Gentleman had grap-
pled with that question. They had net shown upon what
principle that sum had been selected. Why, he found that
in another Bill introduced by the Right Hoe. Gentleman
the Secretary for Ireland (the Landlord and Tenant Bill)
he had separated the Irish peasantry into two distinct
classes. Of these one kind should have the right of
appeal, and the others should sue in forma peuperis, and
be found that fie limit so fixed was not an 81. but a 101.
—(Loud cries c f h Heir.") So that in the one Bill
the Right Hon. Gentleman had drawn the line between
the inferior and superior at 10/., end in the other Bill at
81.— (Herr, hear.) Now, was not that a most marked
piece of inconsistency? The two principles were
wholly irreconcilable the one with the other. The in-
ference he drew from it was this, that no sooner did the
Bi!1 become law than the Right Hon. Gentleman, dis-
daining to be the representative of a rotten borough,
would ask for the Chiltern Hundreds, and they would
see the sublime spectacle of a dissolution for Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) He called upon the Hon. Member for
Manchester, who was about to vote for the 8/. franchise,
to explain how he could reconcile that with the vote he
had given the previous night. Last night be was pre-
pared to vote for universal suffrage for England, and he
would ask was he now prepared to vote for 81.? If so,
the inference wan that the difference between 81. and
nothing was the difference between the Irish and English
constituency.—(No, no.) If the Honourable Gen-
tleman had one spark of consistency, whet he should
do was, to vote that the blank be not filled up with
81. —ho should avoid swelling the Government
majority, as that would preclude him from afterwards
voting a smaller sum. If ho and his party did nut act
thus nothing would prevent the public from seeing that
they were taking a most illogical course. What ho
(Mr. Stafferi) and his friends proposed was that,
balancing the advantages and the disadvantages of the
selected Bih.e
o a
n had plan, they had come boldly forward and stated what they
meant to divide upon.
Mr. SHELL said the House was very justly impatient
for a division —(A. laugh.) It appeared to him that the
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was, in all
much more upon what
to the obser-
'td n
hpreombaebainlitt3;o, esnaygahgiernd3ienurtehflae g
than in
n listening
th To nm
tive er Hon.e nt
rations of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for
Ireland.
.a dFt
the . notit. Friend
d statedbad
why
)
Gentlemanhad ah
G
ground-
workdistinctly o the franchise;Mated
that
he but his
81. as equivalent ts
the franchise conceded by the Reform Bill. His Right
Hon. Friend might be wrong, but that was the explana-
tion he had given. He should snit r only ono statisti-
cal fact, but that was one of no ordinary importance.
There were 469 English Members in that
House—there were 105 Irish Members, Of these
English Members, 321 were returned by boroughs ;
and of tho 105 Irish Members a large majority were re•
turned by counties. What inference did he draw from
that? The qualification of the English Members was a
101. value; and the qualification of the Irish Members
was not a 10/. value, but a beneficial 101. interest. That
was equivalent to a 201. value. Now, he wanted to con-
tend for the right of the Irish to British institutions.
Let them not imagine that the question he was about to
put was not germane to the matter in hand. He had no
fanatical antipathy to the Irish Church, but the question
ho put to the House was, on what principle did they
maintain the Irish Church?, Not because they were not
insensible to the anomaly—Rot because they were not
convinced of the inconsistency of maintaining it—but
because they thought that in the two countries the same
ecclesiastical institutions should exist. Be it so. Ap_
ply the same principle to the present case. Let them
apply to the state the principle they applied to the
church, and grant them the constitutional affinity as
they insisted upon ecclesiastical affinity, go_
nourable Gentlemen opposite ought to bear in mind
the Conservative concomitants of the Bill. He be-
lieved that there would not be such an augmentation
of democratic power as Honourable Gentlemen anti-
cipated. In the first place, the expense of the elections
would be doubled, and the legitimate ambition of many
young aspirants would be put a stop to. In the next
place, there would be a large mails of rural occupiers of
the soil who would go to the county towns, and in hie
progress of 20 or 30 miles he would get rid of the
popular epedimic of intimidation—he would be encum-
bered and surrounded by excited and assisting thousands,
and he would vote under the eye of his landlord, and in
his peculiar physiegnomy he would find an exceedingly
intelligent glance that he would be at no loss to under-
stand. These were the Conservative concomitants of the
Bill. It was, he trusted, not difficult, from the text
devised by her Majesty's Government, to give all classes
in Ireland a just equipoise of power.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK denied that he had been guilty of
any inconsistency because he had voted for the motion
of Mr. Hume on the previous night. He was anxious
to see the constituency of Ireland enlarged, and that
was the object of his vote last night as regarded
the English constituency. He would go as far as
he could get anybody to go with him. The question
really
before the House was, in what way they wore
to enlarge the constituency of It-clamed? Ile heard con•
scantly from the other side expressions of great sym-
pathy for Ireland, and he wished then that they would
show It by allowing them the mewls of managing their
own affaire. When the Government were attempting to
extend the constituency they heard Hon. Members from
the Odposition side of the House rising up one after
another and saying that they wanted an independent
constituency. '1
2--ey, however, think that independence
and a 15/. franchise are co-existent. Why should 151.
create al more independent constituency than 10s or 81.?
There was a great reason for making the franchise much
lower its Ireland than England, for in the latter country
there was much greater wealth than in the former. If
they were in England to give such a franchise which.
he should be glad to see cor fared upon the people—fir
he had never opposed the Chendos clause—they would
swell the constituency in this country far more than