The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-14 00:00:00

subject upon which human v.isdom and legislative dis-
cuslion had a right to be heard.

Mr. A NSTE Y protested against the Hon. awl laarned
Member for the University of Dublin speaking in the
name of the Roman Catholics of Ireland—a superstitious
and idolatrous body, with which he could have no con-
nexion whatever.

Air. NAI'IER said ho had many Roman Catholics
amongst his conscientious supporters, and by these he
had been requested to oppose the Bill.
Mr. MACGREGOR (who rose amidst a storm of
impatience) said the religious and domestic sentiments of
Scotland were opposed to the Bill.
Colonel RA WDON urged upon the Committee the
importance of assimilating the law in Ireland with that
of the rest of the kingdom-.
Viscount CASTLEREAGII did not think that prin-
ciple ought to prevail against the unanimous feeling of
the Irish people; and as far as ho knew, Presbyterians,
Roman Catholics, and what was called the Protestant
Church of Ireland, were a!1 decidedly against the pass-
ing of this

Mr. FAIRER then withdrew his motion for reporting
progrees, and

Tfr, Committee divided on Colonel Chatterton's rim
tion, when there apposrei—
For the motion ...
Against it
Majority against the motion... 1S
The Bill tv,is then understood to pass through Com
mittee, and the House resumed.
Colonel CHATTERTON gave notice that he would
move the same thing on the third reading.
Mr. ANSTEY begi;ed to give notice that he, on the
contrary, would move en the report, that the Act he
extended to the colonies and all the dominions of her
Majesty.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, as somo discussion might
he expected on the report, he would take a little time
t) consider on what day he would move the considera-
tion of it

... 114
... 132

THE NEW HOUSE.
On the motion for going into Committee on the
General Board of Health Bill,
Mr. lIUME begged to ask a question of the lion.
Member for Lancaster tespecting their accommodation
in the new House. He wanted to know the meaning of
the extraordinary illumination which he saw proceeding
from the windows. It had given him a headache—a
thing which he had scarcely ever had in his life. He
really protested against sitting any longer in that House
until some better arrangements were made.
Mr. GREENE rose to reply, when
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member for Mon trose
was out of order. The question before the House was
he order of the day.
The House then went into Committee on the
GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.

Mr. FORBES moved that the Chairman report pro,
grass, and the gallery was cleared, but no division took
place, and the Bill passed through Committee.
POST-OFFICE CLERKS.
Mr. ANSTEY moved for a copy of the memorial
from the clerks of the money order department ad-
dressed to the Postmaster-General, in September, 1849,
and referred to in their petition which was presented on
the 7th instant, and printed with the votes; and of any
correspondence between them and the Postmaster-Ge-
neral on the subject of the said memorial.
Mr. HAYTE ft said there was not the slightest objec-
tion on the part of the Post-office authorities to produce
the memorial, but he did not think the House ought to
form into a court of appeal with regard to the details
of the management of the Poet-office, and should leave
the matter in the hands of the Government.
Lord D. STUART supported the motion, believing
that those parties were very much underpaid, and that
their case was deserving the consideration of that House.
He hoped their grievances would be looked into by the
heads of the department, and that they would obtain the
redress they were entitled to.

Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the House would be of
opinion that theiHon. Member for Youghal was entitled
to the information he asked for.
Sir G. GREY said the House ought to be very cau-
tious in admitting appeals of this sort; but on the under-
standing that the Hon. Member intended to found a
motion on the subject, it was for the House to say
whether the memorial was necessary for that purpose
or not.

' Major BLACKALL observed that the House was
very properly a House of appeal in all cases of grievance,
and the present case was one which they might very
fairly and properly entertain.
After some conversation, the House divided—
For the motion ... ... 10
Against it ...
... 64
Majority • ... —54
The motion was accordingly lost.
PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND.
Mr. ADDERLEY moved "That the dispatches lately
received from the Lieutenant-Governor of Prince Ed-
ward's Island be laid on the table of the House; also
copies of correspondence which passed at the commence-
meat of the ycar between the House of Assembly of that
colony and the Secretary of State for the Colonial De-
partment."

- Mr. HAWES said the pspers moved for would by
no means convoy the information which it ts ai the in-

tention of Earl Grey at the proper time to lay before the
House on the subject. At the present time the produc-
tion of the papers would be att3nded with serious injury
to the interests of the colony, and he could not accede to
the motion.

Mr. ADDERLEY said it would then be his duty to
present the petitions which had reached him on the sub-
ject, and make a motion upon them.
The motion was withdrawn.

The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at a Quarter before Two
o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 13.
Their Lordships met at Five o'e!oei.
PETITIONS.

Lord MON rEAGLE presented a petition from
bankers and merchants of Aberdeen, and a petition from
Arbroath, complaining of the arrangements of the Aber-
dee❑ Rsilway Company.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a similar petition from
Cupar, in the county of Fife.
SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY.
On the motion that the South Eastern Railway
(Amendment of Acts, Power to raise Additional Capital)
Bill be read a third time,
Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from Mr.
Josiah Wilson, a shareholder in the company, com-
plaining of certai❑ malpractices on the part of the direc-
tors, and praying to be heard at the bar of the House
against the present measure. The petitioner alleged
that the directors had jobbed i❑ their own shares with
the funds of the company, and as the prayer of the peti-
tioner could not be acceded to, the Noble Lord proposed
to insert a clause giving the Board of Trade power to
appoint an auditor, should the majority of the proprie-
tors consent to that course.

Lord BROUGHAM said ho should certainly resist
the proposal of his Noble Friend.
Lord REDESDALE gave it as his opininion that to
insert such a clause as that proposed by the Noble Lord
would be contrary to the standing orders of the house.
Lori MONTEAGLE iniiated that they had no right
to give this company power to raise 1,200.,0001. more
without taking some guarantee that the money should
not be applied to jobbing purposes.
Lord REDESDALE said the insertion of the clause
would be tantamount to throwing the Bill out altogether.
Lord MON ['EAGLE reminded their Lordships that
two years ago Sir Robert Peel inserted a similar clause
in the Bill of a railway company who had been guilty of
similar mal-practices. He moved the adjournment of
the debate.

Lord BROUGHAM contended that there bad been
no jobbing in the instance complained of by the peti-
tioners. The transaction was an open and honourable.
one, notwithstanding the money ca►►ae out of the funds of
the company, and it ultimately proved beneficial to the
shareholders.

Lord HATHERTON said the transaction in fact was
supported by the shareholders themsel►es, who agreed to
it in genr.ral meeting assembled.
Etri GREY said, aLhough be approved a the spirit
and intention of the clause, he thought it was too lat.., to
introduce it at this stage of the measure, and he must
therefore resist it.

After some further dismsion the amendment was
neg.tativpd, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
THE COUR r OF CIIANCERY (COUNTY PALA-

TINE OF LitNC ASTER) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed after a
protest from Lord CAMPBELL, who considered the Bill
wholly unnecessary.
DELIVERY OF LETTERS ON THE SUNDAY.
Lord BROUGHAM having alluded to the late ad-
dress of the House of Commons on the subject of the
Post, iffice—which was carried in a thin House by a very
slight; majority—and to the reply to that address com-
municated by Lord John Russell to the Legislature,
begged leave to ask her Majesty's Ministers whether
letters, though they might not be sent out of the Post-
office on Sundry, might not be delivered on that day to
those who applied at the Post-office for them between
the hours of Divine service.

The Earl of MINTO—No ; they are to be locked up
in the box.

Lord BROUGHAM—Then I hope that the people of
England, and especially the merchants of Liverpool and
other great towns, will learn in the next six months tho
consequences of this order.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH presented a petition
from the city of Exeter against the Irish Franchise Bill
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWNE the
Sheriff of Westmorland Appointment Bill was read a
second time.

university, it appeared that be was entirely unaware of
any intention of the issue of this commission until after
the Government had declared their intention to Parlia-
ment; and it did not appear from the observations of
the Noble and Gallant Duke the Chancellor of thee-Uni-
versity of Oxford, that he was at all aware of the iuteu-
tion entertained by the Government. It would throw a
great difficulty in the way of working a commission of
this kind, that those whose interests were the most
affected should have been left entirely in the dark on
the subject. In both the universities of late years a
prudent, and efficient spirit of improvement had been
manifested. He should deceive their Lordships if he were
to say that that spirit was represented by a numerical ma-
jority of the body of the Universities; but if those who
bad bsen active, both at Oxford and Cambridge,
did not carry with them numerically a majority of the
governing body, yet that body did carry with them so
great a weight of character, so much respectability in
point of university station, such high acquirements in
the scale of literary distinction, that they had been able
to obtain more than could have bean anticipated. In
Cambridge the progress of reform had been considerable,
and ho thought it only just to ststs what had been dune,
what was now in progress, and the principles on which
the improvements had been effected, beisause he found
that many persons who had discu ;sod the qesstiou were
either unscqeaiuted with what had been done, or had
shut their eyes to the facts. Complaints had been made
that the course of study was too restricted and too con-
fined; that they had set aside the larger objects brought
under consideration in the lectures of professors, and
confined themselves almost exclusively to those peculiar
studies to which that University devoted its highest re-
wards—namely, mathematical studies. But in 1813 a cor-
responding system of honours was introduced connected
with classical examinations. It was to a certain
extent resisted, or viewed with a certain
degree of disfavour. But ho asked their
Lordships, whether at this moment the honours
of the classical tripos were not looked to with as much
ambition and eagerness as were the honours connected
with mathematical knowledge in former times. In the
college appointments, in the whole college course of
study, in the administration of rewards, those who took
the highest honours obtained positions in the Univer-
sity. That system had taken root, and was, now from
day to day, advancing. These improvements had begun
from the appointment of his late Royal Highness the
Duke of Gloucester as Chancellor of the University.
The first prize he established was one for English com-
position.. In 1848, Cambridge University opened an
entirely new career to university distinction for all pupils
of the University, by establishing two great courses for
the moral and natural sciences. But it was said that
nothing in the way of reform could be expected from
the colleges. That ho (Lord Monteagle) denied.
Trinity College had reformed the whole of its statutes
and consolidated all the amendments that had been
made, in a natural way—that is to say, by the recom-
mendation of the Crown as visitor, and by the assent
ef the Crown to the reformation in the statutes of
the foundation. The rival college of St. John bad
done the same. In Pembroke, Mr. Pitt's college, the
whole of the statutes had been revised; and they had
also been revised in the same manlier, that was, with the
consent of the Crown, in Jesus; while in Peterhouse
certain restrictions had been removed by royal letter.
In the University itself a revision of its own statutes
had been under consideration for upwards of seven
years; it was now nearly completed—it was hoped it
would be ready this year; and then it would be/ carried
into effect unless the pressure coatemplated by the com-
mission changed the purpose of its promoters. But the
University had done:still more—it had made a mere for-
mality a reality, as in the case of a degree of medicine,
for which a strict examination was now required in che-
mistry and natural science generally. It had also founded
several prizes. He argued, therefore, that the commis-
sion was undertaken without any adequate appreciation
of what was in progress in the University of Cambridge
at least, and he would also add, without any perfect com-
prehension of the difficulty and delicacy of the
task imposed upon it. There was a further fact
which should be impressed on the House—those con-
cerned in these movements for improvement within the
University did not, ho was sorry to say, include the
numerical majority. What then, he asked, would be
the effect of the commission? Would it not add to their
difficulty, and check the march of improvement? He
(Lord M.) did not for a moment mean to say that the
whole question of university reform could be carried
without the aid of Parliament; but how different would
that aid be appreciated when forced upon a reluctant
body to what it would be when sought for by themselves.
The commission had no compulsory power of examina-
tion. A great delusion prevailed as to the wealth of the
Universities. As far as regarded Cambridge, he could
state that it had not the means to enclose its botanical
garden, or the money to pay for stationery laid on the
table of the Senate House on a late occasion. So much
for its wealth. But it was urged that the Universities
were indebtel to the public taxation. How was the
fact? The Chancellor of the Exchequer received
every year some 3.0001. or 4,000/. for stamps on de-
grees; while the Government only gave about 800/.
a-) ear as salaries to professors. These allegations
did not, therefore, .constitute a sufficient ground to
issue a commission; and he earnestly entreated the
Government not to change their minds, but to delay
the issue until the appropriate time arrived for it, that
was to say, when an application to that effect came from
the Universities. Its issue at the present time would, he
was satisfied, impede the progress of further improve-
ments, and retard rather than accelerate university re-
form. The Noble Lord then moved for the papers above
enumerated.
The Esrl of CARLISLE, on the part of the Govern-
ment, had nu objection to the production of the papers
in question, and in doing so he confirmed the statement
of his Noble Friend that neither his Noble Friend at the
head of the Government, or any Member of the Govern-
ment as a body, in any steps which they contemplated,
iir had taken, or should take in respect to the commis-
sion on the Universities, were actuated by other than the
most respectful feelings and the hest intentions towards
the learned bodies ; indeed, he should sadly belie his
own sentiments, and be deeply ungrateful for some
of the happiest days of his life, if he was actuated
by a contrary feeling. Her Majesty's Government.
were not less indisposed than he was himself to under-
value or ignore the many useful improvements in pro-
gress by the Universities, adopted, or in the course of
adoption, and he hoped that the commission might not
be without it use in recognising and calling attention to
them, as well as in promoting them and encouraging
those by whom they were promoted, the more especially
as the Noble Lord had truly stated that many of these
that
tb: improvementspar
ty wberr
pe
rnbogtr
ees
affec
wastedowe I
pt haor ttlyt rine s
ai s tbauemc ee,r
numerical
minority. The expression of approval and sympathy
on the pert of competent persons without the Universi-
ties could not fail to give strength and aid to those who
undertook the task of rational improvement within. He
(Earl of Carlisle) knew that the Universities were the
subject of much unmerited censure; and he was also
aware that it would be urged that the commission gave
the stamp of her
Majesty's Government to that
censure. But that was a reason for inquiry all the more,
because the more any misconception prevailed on a
subject the more useful it was to let in the light
of day on it. It was obvious to every one
that the charters and statutes of the Universities—firmed
as they were, under the Plantugenets and Tudors, and
modified only in the time of Laid—were not sufficient
for modern times. Indeed, in some respects they were
—at least some of them—rendered obsolete by the
change of manners as much as by the change of re-
ligion of the country, and could therefore only be dealt
with in practice by an evasion. To divert a charter
from its original purpose was, he admitted, a delicate as
well as a difficult task; but it seemed to him that the
most useful part of the labours of the commission would
be, in conjunction with the resident members of the
Universities, to decide in what respect application
should be made to the Legislature for those modi-
fications and alterations required by the changed
circumstances of the times in the existing laws of
those bodies. It had been urged that modifications
might be made by those bodies themselves ; but it
was obvious to every one that such a course would
not satisfy those persons who were opposed to the
present c eistitution of the Universities. Whatever might
be thought of the proceedings of the Government, how.
ever, they disclaimed any disrespect, ill-feeling, or slight
towards the Universities. If any neglect appeared to
have been shown to the Universities, or to their distin-
euished Chancellors, no ono would regret it more than
his Noble Friend at the head of the Government; at all
events, those illustrious individuals who were at the head
of both held such a high position in the eyes of the world
as to make wilful disrespect to them utterly impossible.
A commission had issued under a late Government to
inquire into the condition 01 chapters and ecclesiastical
dignities, and the Right Rev. and other distinguished
persons appointed under it afforded in their names a
So with respect to the commission on the Uni-
sufficient guaranty that no disrespect whatever was in-
tended.versities. Whatever persons were appointed to serve on
it, the Government would take care that they were men
general character, were actuated
for the Universities, and the
bwyh oa, eossi
td si e iar f
fe highctio b
tendency of whose objects should be to coatpersee with
the best and most enlightened men in these learned
bodies,
Earl POWIS complained that the commission had
been issued, not as a substantive measure, but as the
supplement of a periodical motion in the other House,
the object of which was to admit Dissenters to the go-
vernment of the Universities. 'rho commission would
interfere wi:h property on a large scale as regarded the
power of beqnest, and the First Minister of the Crown
was now about to destroy the arrangements of the an.
cient donors, which the founders had sacrificed their
property to create, The Noble Earl had alluded to the
ecclesiastical commission issued by Sir R. Peel, but he
could not have chosen a prece lent more justly ca'culated
to strike terror and create hostility in the Universities,
fur that commission had destroyed the property of the
bishoprics and chapters, snd it was now intended to be
followed up by a Bill to divert episcopal revenues to pa-
rochial purposes, though chapters were still allowed to
hold pluralities. That was not the way to procure
amity on the part of the Government towards the Uri.-
versities.

c'iuld be more
from want of respect or of kindly feeling
lteheFroioetani.l.
miLssoiord:harlilsOin: GIIAM agreed with . his Noble
uwriiitorusepotkheanlaidlebisiut
supposition of
ntthaehisnsguing
towards the Universities.—(Henr.) Nevertheless, ho
and their Lordships had of Wellington), which
thought the commission a very great error, a very great
mistake; but, MS his reason had beea stated in his letter
had
tohits)eNenobmci
Noble Friend p
rielc(,the ndp
probably seen, he nt ed hardly trouble the House with
his opinion, and argument, and protest. •$e felt bound
to write that lett T as the head of University College,
London, though he acted entirely of his own accord, and
Without any communication with his Council, and pur-
posely avoided making them responsible by any previous
communication. But ho had another reason for writing
it—the put he hid taken for 35 year§ in inquiries of

APPOINTMENTS.
Clerk—Timothy Cliooh, to the Fisgard.
Lieutenant—George W. Towsey, to the Sealark.
MtdAiprnen—Edward Tongue and Edward W,
Dillon, to the Sealark.
Second Master—Samuel Braddon, to the Illus.
triou=.

Naval Cadet—Edward Adeane, to the Phaeton.
THE EFFECT OF SHOT AND SHELL ON THE

HULL OF IRON VESSELS.
The first experiment for testing the effect of she;
and shell on the sides of iron vessels took place on
'Wednesday at Portsmouth, under the superintend-
ence of Captain Chads, on board the Excellent. The
Commander in-Chief, Admiral the Hon. Sir Bladen
Cape], Rear-Admiral Prescott, and a number of naval
and military officers, were on board her.
A large butt, being a copy of a section of the
Simoom's main deck, had been made in the dockyard,
representing the two sides of an iron vessel, each
side of the strength and consistency of one of the
large iron steam-ships. This butt was erected on
the mud, at a distance of 460 yards from the Excel-
lent, and the practice took place at high water from
guns of several calibre, and various charges of pow-
der, both shot and shell, were fired.
At intervals between the firing boats visited the
butt to examine the effects of particular shot on the
iron work. It was found that on the side that
the shot entered a large and tolerably round hole was
made in the iron plate, the circumference being
much jagged and the edge turned inward. On the
opposite side where the shot passed out the hole was
larger and also jagged, the edge of the hole turned
outwards, with occasionally some rivets started. Some
of the shot on entering, and from striking against
angles of the iron ribs, were broken in pieces, the
fragments passing out at the opposite side, making
holes of various sizes and formations. Shells also
ironwork
in to have a destructive effect on the
in creating splinters, and the pieces of shell passing
out through the plates at the opposite side, the off.
side in all cases suffering most. Of course neither
shot, aor shell, nor grape, nor canister, would
lodge in iron vessels, as would be the case in
wooden vessels. To test the effect of the splinters
inside the vessel, a alight plank bulkhead had been
run yip between the iron sides of the butt. This was
found entirely shattered, and shows clearly how dread-
fully the crew of an iron vessel would have suffered,
more especially when it is considered that the splin-
ters from the jagged iron inflict the most dangerous
description of wound, even a slight one predisposing
the party hurt to tetanus or lockjaw, and otherwise
being most difficult to cure. From the experiments
made yesterday, we conclude that iron vessels are not
fit to cope with vessels of wood, neither are they fi,
to go against batteries, for it is now tolerably certain
that the fatal effects of every shot received on board
would be quadrupled by the tendency of the iron-
work to splinter,
.fly off, and destroy everything in
the immediate vicinity of the concussion, more espe-
cially when the ball itself is also likely to split and
break to pieces likewise. The experiments were
further tested to-day by Ciiptasn Chads, and instead
of the plain bulkhead, canvas is stretched across,
which will show the effect of the splinters and broken
shot more effectually than hoards. Shot and shell
were both fired to-day, and Captain Chads will
continue the test till he can make a satisfactory
report.