The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-19 00:00:00

scsetonF
Sir J. PA 1".1 sa4l that, he could not account
~
the lief,. uciiiierna,t',. (Mr. -Roebuck's) sneering at
lio last sixteen years that he had been
}pint, for tiering t
chairmtm of ttheAyss.olL . tie
.1, never know any act
of Lis if magistrates that drealed the
on the rAt
most open publicity, and hui el that the Hon. Gentleman
would Itcorne more conyt rsant with facts betote he
wooll wake such sweeping
allegations again. lle thet.
rt at an t xtract from tho Act of larliainent,specifying
that two or more magistrates must meet in the ac-
customed court.
n,.4strate; meeting at
IttlEl3liCK said that two ry ;;.
.1 theublicity of
p
tte ileen,torned court did not qua-J:
their decisions through the plus, that- was the
uud
prii.cipal point of his objection.
Sir GEORGL GREY considered that some Hon.
Gentlemen Here mistaken as to 'the restiits cf the Act
entitle 1 the Juvenile Offenders Act. That Act gave
jurisdiction .to inary.istri.tos in i.etty eessiuw; in c! Pies 01
0073 pf 14 years of ag,, send it passed through the House
or Lords y+ith only 1.,46)
n rittet.denent, moved by Lord
nian. Tt_e real qticsti,n which they bad now to
determine was, as to v.hat vas the prouer juvenile
ofi'etiOnrs. Tho argument of the Hon. and Learned
04--ntlemanhould opposnfineite was that 14 was the age to which
they mco their legislation on this question,
and, on the other hand, it was deemed advisable to ex-
trod the jurisdiction from the age of 14 to 16 years, and
that was the age in which governor& of prisons classed • venile" efienders from adult offenders. And the
thetinction was analagoue to the rew pcor law, which
treated the case' of relif given to a child as relief to the
parent.
Pulx•rty or manhood was taken to commence
at "seventeen° years of age. The Bill had now been in
0 w Mien two years aid a half, and not one complaint
..,4 ws I jAvisoc,„Kaq to hint by the juvenile °treaders with
14,04-IC'doutt—akhough complaints were frequent to
tem frquveidults—not one complaint bad been made to i
- Miserbyltpluveuile Wenders who Chhle Tfitbin the jerie,
• s.

9AJMI,~,

rt;
•

in En eland numbered 2,024, of whom 151 were under diction of the Act. The summary object of the Bill
16 years of age, being an eighth of the whole number, was to protect juvenile offenders from the contamination
while the number of instances where the value of the which must result from their being imprisoned with
property stolen did not exceed Is. was 270. The ac-
adult criminals. He was, therefore, for those reasons,
quittals amounting to 434. Now these figures would prepared to support the Bill of the Hon. Member.
demonstrate the importance ef the change which it Sir JOHN PAKINGTON thought that the Hon. and
was proposed to make by this Bill. The criminal law of Learned Gentleman, before he came down to make those
this country was based upon the principle, that every attacks on magistrates, should have taken up his own
party' accused of an offence should be tried by a compe- law on "footpaths."
tent judge and a competent jury, and the main object of Mr. LAW (the Recorder of London) thought that
this Bill was to destroy that bulwark of liberty, so far as stopping the business of the House in this manner, was
the humbler classes were concerned, in order to save more serious than the considerations about footpaths to
the pockets of the middle and higher classes of society. which the Hon. Baronet was referring, and he should,
He would remind the House that until an Act passed therefore, move, o that the Chairman leave the chair
in the reign of George 11. no judge of assize was al- and report progress."
lowed to try a criminal ease in his own county. But it Sir JOHN PAKINGTON would only say in addi-
was proposed by this Bill to take away not merely the tion, with respect to the extension of the Act to sixteea
security of a judge who would be presumably impartial, years, he considered it a very valuable extension.
but to substitute for him two magistrates to try cases in Mr. LAW said the Right Honourable Baronet argued,
their own neighbourhood and their own parish, although that the age of 14 years was regarded, in the classifica-
a judge in former times was not allowed to try a pri- Lion of crime, as the age supposed to be incapable of
senor in his own county. By an old statute cf Edward committing rape; but although it might not be deemed
111. it was enacted that, where criminals were tried at capable of eommitting a rape in his own person, he
might be chargeable with assisting another in the com-
quarter-sessions, the magistrates of the quorum should
consist of at least one who was "learned in the law," mission of crime
who should act at a check on the ignorance of the lay Mr. HUME was not disposed to blame any of those
part of the bench. But they proposed by this Bill not Parties who carried on the institutions of the country,
merely to take away the quorum of the quart er•sessions, because to whoever undertook those duties he would
but to substitute two magistrates of the looality give the credit of meaning rightly. But he bad often
who should be learned or unlearned. (The Hon. Member regretted the situation in which the magistrates of petty
then proceeded to read a letter, addressed to the Chair- sessions were placed with regard to the administration
man of the county of Limerick, stating that he was , fjustice. There ought to be no petty sessions without
most decidedly opposed to the Bill ; also a letter from a a chairman brought up to the law, and appointed for
Judge on the Irish bench, whose name, from delicacy, that purpose. The expense was nothing compared with
he forbore to mention, who expressed his opinion that the importance of the considerations and interests to be
the Bill was most unnecessary and mischievous, both in determined upon in relation to the due administration of
England and Ireland.) It formed:no part of his (Mr. justice. He found that in Worcestershire the petty
M'Cullsgh's) duty, on this occasion, that he should enter sessions were often held in places where many of the
into any statement of tl.e objections that might be magistrates had objection to attend.
,He considered that
popularly urged as to the unfitness of the judges who they ought to be held in places more appropriate than
might ho called on to-adjudicate on cases of a serious back pralours, or clerks' offices, or union workhouses.
nature; but he thought it his duty to remind the House He was rather surprised to hear* the Right Hon. Baronet
that they were submitting the liberty of the subject at the head of the Home Department say that he had
to the whim and ignorance of any two gentlemen who not received any complaints from juvenile offenders of
might happen to be placed in the proposed commission. the operation of this Bill. Why, who had ever heard of
It was true that they had the option given to them, but complaints to a Secretary of State from boys of the age
' how few comparatively could ever avail themselves of of fourteen?—(Hear, hear.) He should, as far as his
that right who really were deserving of it, while, on the humble vote would go, object to the extension of the ju-
contrary, the hardened and astute villain would be the risdiction on this question from fourteen to sixteen
only one who would be able to take advantage. It was year'.
stated that it was of great importance that, in a country Mr. BECKETT DENISON—The Hon. Baronet
like Great Britain, no waste of public money (Sir John Pakington) said that this Bill would bring
should be allowed to take place, and this was under the jurisdiction of the magistrates at petty sessions
• a proposition which he did not mean to oppose, an increased number of offenders. Now that was the
but still that was no argument to legislate for the op- great objection which he (Mr. B. Denison) had to the
pression of any class of criminals on the motives of pub- Bill. Every person knew that the class of offenders
lie convenience. He should say let legislators experi- from fourteen to sixteen years of age, formed a very
mentalise upon themselves, and not first upon the poorer considerable portion of the "rising rogues" of the coun-
classes. Let them repeal trial by jury for themselves try; and he did not think that such cases ought to be
first, before they tried It upon other classes. He carried to pay sessions. He thought it his duty the
considered the Bill extremely objectionable, and should other day in quarter sessions, in the West Riding of
feel it his duty to take the sense of the House upon Yorkshire, to bring this Bill under consideration of the
his amendment. magistrates, without expressing any opinion of his own
Sir G. STRICKLAND said he deeply lamented to upon it. He thus gave them the opportunity to express
see the attempts which were continually being made their opinions upon it then or since, but he had not heard
- to do away with trial by jury, which, from his earliest one word from them on the subject. He had strong rea-
days, he had been taught to consider as one of the sons for believing that if the Bill were extended to 16
dearest rights of Englishmen. The great objection years it would be attended with Lad effects, and there-
which he entertained to the present Bill was, that it fore he bad strong objections that the age should be ex-
gave to magistrates, at petty sessions, unlimited power tended. Out of about 120,000 or 130,000 prisoners tried
to torture a person under sixteen years by flogging, in the course of the year, 85,000 were dealt with by sum-
without the intervention cf a jury. It would be, in his mary jurisdiction; and he found that of those 10,000
opinion, extremely injudicious to give this unconstitu-• were not included in the 80,000, who were confined from,
tionaln'power at a time when the public indigna- 14 days to 3 months, and who would come under the
Lion had almost put an end to the prac- jurisdiction of this Bill. He should also- object to the
cite of flogging in the army. (Hear, hear.) extension of the Bill, because he did not think it had yet
• He believed that the old Mosaic law was humane, it pro-
had sufficient trials
Mr. LAW, to shorten the discussion, should repeat his
vided that the number of stripes should not exceed a
certain number, but in this case the number was to motion "that the Chairman do now leave the chair."
be It ft unlimited, and he insisted that this Mr. M. MILNES considered this subject of great im-
part of the Bill wss most unconstitutional. The portance. He would refer the Committee to the wisdom
advantage of trial by jury was that it forced the judge of the French code, which considered that boys at 16
y
who presided over the court so to expound the law that years of age ought to be dealt with under special con-
it should be understood by the most ordinary minds, but siderations. It was of importance that they should con-
. One of his main objections to this Bill was that eider the question with regard to the time at which the
it p'aced authoiity in the hands of parties boy becomes a mah; and it was also of the utmost im-
who were incompetent to administer the law. The portance to try to rescue him from the association with
magistracy of this country were perfectly incapable of criminals.
a ientnistering the law in the cases contemplated by this Mr. ROEBUCK would ask the Committee to address
Bill. He, himself, had for 25 years, had the manage- itself to the question. This Bill would enable magis-
moot of the legal business at the petty sessions of the traces to inflict a most disgracefuland degrading punish-
East and West Riding of Yorkshire, and the result of meat on a boy who was already a man. He asked them
that ex perjure° induced him to believe that the country if they were prepared to give the magistrates sitting, as
magistracy were totally incompetent to exer- the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire had de-
cite the .power which this Bill would impose elated, in inappropriate places, without the aid of a
upon tl em. lle therefore trusted the House would jury or the benefit of judicial guidance, power to de-
threw out this Bill, while he hoped to see the day when grade a man in time to came by exposing him in the
the Juveni'e Winders' Act would be repealed. They common market place to be whipped? Ile held that
were going to entrust unconstitutional powers to the no man had a right to strike even his own child,
hands of two magistrates which they would not confide and if he had a child he should not dare to
to the judges of the land. They were now under-
strike him. If they dared to whip a man at six-
faking the odious duties of convicting "trims-
teen years of age—[An Hononrable Member—He is
pals without the intervention of a jury.
not a man.]---The Honourable Member says he is not
If pas:ed such a Bill as the present they would give a man. Ile (Mr. Roebuck) held that they had no
a deathblow to the unpaid: magistracy cf the country. right to whip a person at that age, and that in doing
Sir J. PAKINGTON objected t, the course that so they would for ever degrade him as a man.—(Hear,
had teen adopted of arguing the principle of hear.) He hoped that those who valued the adminis
the Bill on the motion for its going into Committee. tration of justice in this country would support the
He was prepared to answer all the objections that had proposition of the Honourable Member the Recorder of
tern made to the Bill, and would do so when the House London, a judge who had more extensive knowledge
was in Committee on it, but he deprecated again argu- of criminals than any other man in this country. He
ing its priecnnes. (Mr. Roebuck) appealed, then, to the Committee , and
Mr. C. HOWARD would give his steady opposition hoped they would not permit the proposed extension of
to the Bill, believing its provisions to t e inconsistent age.
with the constitution of England. He objected to the After a few observations from Mr. G. H. VIVIAN, as
kurhm : r y powers of tie Bill. The civil law of France to the heavy expense which the prosecution of offenders
alloy o 1 the kings of that country to a cend the throne at entailed on the Consolidated Fund—an expense which he,
the age of fourteen, while this Bill classed 3ouths of in one case, knew to exceed 1001.,
sixteen as juveniles. Mr. LAWLESS gave notice that he should, at the
. Mr. AGLIONBY said he would state one single proper time, move two amendments—the one, that the
ground for supporting 'he Bill. It enabled a criminal to jurisdiction be not extended to 16 years—the other, that
be tried and titercarny decided instead of remaining in the Bill be rot extended to Ireland. He should do all in
prison three months, as at preseat. He thought it a his power to prevent corporal punishment in cases elapse
me caul Bill.—(lfear.) the age of 14 years.—(Hear.)
Mr. HENLEY said he wished to know whether the After a few words from Lord BERNARD, stating
Bill was to be divided into two Bills. that in some cases accused parties were taken fify
:sir G. GREY said that he would support that part of miles to the county gaol, and back to the quarter
tie Bill which related to juvenile offecders, and would sessions,
aastain from expressing any opinion upon the other Colonel THOMPSON said it appeared to him that
portion of it. the " knotty " (knouty) point before the Committee
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that when the House went was, as to the age at which posterity:should be whipped.
into Committee he would take the sense of the House as —(Great laughter, caused by the Honourable and
to whether the Bill should be divided into two parts, and Gallant Member's "punning" propensity.) Now he
he should t e guided by the opinion of Committee. was not for whipping them. at all, and by that principle
Mr. LAW said he did not know whether it was corn- he would endeavour to regulate his vote.
netent for the Hon. Baronet to take that course. The The Committee then divided on Mr. Law's motion,
House had already substantially affirmed the question that the Chairman leave the chair, when there ap-
that the Bill should be divided into two s arts. If the peared—
cf)urse proposed were persisted in he should vote against For the motion ... ... ... 61
the Pill altogether. Against it ... ... ... ... 70
The Reuse then divided when there appeared— Majority against... ... ... 9
For
rgoing into Committee ... ... 183 Mr. ROEBUCK moved an amendment, the effect of
. - Against,it .. .. • -• ••• 76 which would be to restrict the opei ation of the Bill, so
• 'Majority for going into Committee —57 far as personal chastisement was concerned, to persons
The House then went into Committee on the Bill of 14 instead of 16 years of age.
Mr. LAW moved, pursuant to the instruction
which After a few words from Mr. AGLIONBY and Mr.
had been given to the Committee by the House to divide HUME,
it into two parte. He moved that the second part of the Mr. M'CULLOGH again declared his opposition to
Bill relatiag to adults he left cut. the Bill, believing it to be a measure which would spread
Sir J. PARINGTON said he would be very glad to discontent among the labouring classes.
take tse as no, eif the House on that question,
to Honourableaniv
i. Mr. DRUNIMOND declared his intention of voting
Sir G. GREY sent he thought that
goingthefor the amendment, but he maintained that the Juvenile
Baronet was setting 4 bad example inOffenders Act had not been, as Mr. M'Cullogh insinu-
sien ein this que,stion eter the House'majority
by a of cited, unsuccessful.
7Q, had at,e.dy drcidsd that the Bill should be divided. Mr. P. HOWARD would give his determined opposi-
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that that result was ob-
tian to the Bill. He objected altogether to giving in-
tanied by a motion of which no notice had been given. Hecreased power to the county courts, unless guarded by
felt the Bill as it stood of so much importance that he the cheek of a jury.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
Mr. LA not assent to the mutilation of the Bill.
Mr. LA W said that he was very sorry that the Hon. For the amendment ... .. ... 78
Baronet had alluded egaiu to want of notice. '1 ht Against it •
84
course pursued la 1 been adopted by the highest authe-
Sir G. STRlCKlTAajNerDTityhoepposed the.Billbecause it was
thy, and his Her. Feiond knew he uad given notice of is
ever,most
:14 the pogjeeratofobitnefic!ion to it, how-
inotion to exe;ud adults altos eneer. He was not, there-
torture to any two magistrates. Theh i
fore; taken by surprise in substance.
infliction of such a
punishment brutalised both those 'lse unlimited
~ire AGLIONBY said he must press upon the Com-
nlev;eetwreihwft enroewsutobjerecityedotno
mince the necessity of not d.viding this Bill as proposed.
it, and those who ordered it.
The. Committee then divide d, when there appeared—
amoprraolr,isnoottoplityhesicealalumsee
sanths,at nothing therefore, would
Ae move
For Mr. Law's motion ... ... 102
puniehteasehnotuoldf
Against it ... ... ... ... 50
whippingauthorise theupn magistratesnany
offender to
wihnofisiee t
age thlne
shallt exceed 14
Majority „.. ... ... —52
Mr. AGLIONBY said that he considered nothing
p wh
could be more teneficial to the prisoner, whether inno- years.
cent. or guilty, than that he should be summarily tried, Sir J. PAKINGTON defended inflictionwere
ewhtped in ouri
of p-
fir if inuocent, he would to immediately discharged, in- ping. The children of the rich
•
stead of being bereetorualLinairadprison for some months to the public schools, and their after lives did
deterioration ofnot prove th
punishment. had such a degrading effect as was e
character, and if guilty it
were far preferable that he should Is tried as soon as butcd to it. attri-
possible.
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the House would support the
Mr. ROEBUCK sail that he would wish to see a amendment. Because a boy was a child:at 14:at 16 he was
clause introduced fur the purpose of extending summary a man. The punishment to a boy was the mere pain he
jurisdiction to county court,
whole, the Bill appeared to n und should say that, on the suffered; the punishment to a man was the degradation to
him
useless, as only apper- *lnch he was subjected, a grave and serious difference.
t iiniug to youths of 14 years ofage. He then animad- The Hon. Member talked of boys being whipped at
vetted on the system carried on at
petty sessions, where school, but the schoolboy, they all knew, gloried in show-
the press was generally excluded, a
c eoliugs wcre carried on without _.
In en 4 . where all pro- ing himself superior to merely physical suffering.—
public. knowledge of the (Hear, hear.) Strike a man with a glove on the face;
Mr. PACKE objected to the there was no physical pain, but would net the indignity
arid Learned Ger tleman (Mr. Roebuck
,remarks of the Hen. be felt? Were they really reduced so low that they
) a,
wed to the publicity laver' through the faras
re-
could not
govern their men without the whip? The
asapress, for such Hon. Gentleman said whipping was the spirit of the
wars carried den as ere ly and us openly t the quarter English law, and that at one time even women were
whipped in the market. If they were not to get out of
that spirit, God help them. They bad got out of it in the
case of Women: he honed to see the day when they
would get out of it with bop also. " The boy was the
father of the man." Why was the boy, therefore, to be
degraded? He should have liked to see the man who
would have laid a hand upon him when he was a boy.—
(A laugh.) He knew what he would have done.—(A
laugh.) But he would ask if they were to treat the chil-
dren of the poor in this way? Why
not rather B
at
endea-
vour to raise them up, instead of degradingthem?
gently; were there no sons of the rich who committed'
tpheettypalnairemchenee-natt 16 years of age? He protested against
asa brutal u
f the a
limitationnd
a
degrading s
a guide one.
Mr. LAW approved
to the
magistrates in the infli •
ohm
punishment. of an irritating and painful
Mr. AGLIONBY protested against the Hon. and
Learned Member for She Ifleld saying that the House
was legislating for the degradation of the poor. Th
were not legislating for the pony, but for th ey
e cri
(Hear.) The law would apply alike to hothrTitn al.
poor criminals, and, therefore, on his own el
and
part , and the
Part of the House, he protested against the charge made
by the Hon. and Learned Member.
Mr. R. PALMER agreed with the Hon. Member who
had just sat down, arid was convinced that the cows:
proposed was the most merciful that could be adopted.—
(Hear, hear.) They must not act upon sentimentality—
(llear)—the true stigma and degradation was not the
punishment, but the crime.—(Hear, hear.) The great
object they should have in view was, 'to inflict a punish-
ment which should be feared, which would be cheap to
the State, and which, though painful in its immediate
effects, would leave no permanent degradation behind it-.
The punishment of whipping combined all these ad-
vantages; whereas, by being sent to herd with older
criminals, the worst cf all degradation was thrust upon
4 boy. Five minutes' personal pain, by the proposed