The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-26 00:00:00

Gentleman would not in his cooler nio-olerii:, say tha
an hour's labour a day less than at pyesent would be
the ruin of the country, which sccmea, to be incon-
sistent with good sense and experience. —(1-lear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was veiST-'lscirryi aet
Iron. Gentleman had felt himself bound to say thailel'aNY
(Sir J. Graham) had put words into his mouth. No-
thing„ he could assure the !louse, was farther from his
intention. He had taken a note of the Hon. Gentleinan's
words at the time he spoke them, and he certainly
did understand him to say that high wages were
productive of immorality and vice in the factory dis-
tricts; and the report of the Hon. Gentleman's speech
in the Morning Chronicle agreed with the notes which
he had taken, and which he had stated to the House.
The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded to read the
extract from the Morning Chronicle, but was inter-
rupted by 'cries of " Order" from the Opposition.
The Right Hon. Gentleman appealed to the Speaker
whether or not he was in order. It was a personal
matter—it affected him personally—and as such he
put it to the House 'whether he had not a right to
explain and defend himself.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") -After reading the extract the Right Hon.
Baronet said that although there was such a coin
cidence between his statement and the report of the
Hon. Gentleman's speech in the newspaper alluded
to, still, as the Hon. Gentleman had disclaimed the
observations in the sense in which they were under-
stood by him, be would of course give the Hon.
Gentleman full credit for his explanation, and was quite
willing to believe that he had misunderstood him.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS was anxious, in a
friendly spirit, to observe upon one phrase which had
ben used by his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of
State for the Home Department. He said there
were three courses which were open for the Govern-
ment to recommend to the House, and the Right
lion. Gentleman maintained those three' courses in
full possession of his faculties and temper—(A laugh)
—recommended a particular course which he would
not then stop to examine ; but he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's
Government, whether he considered the expres-
sion used by the Right Hon. Gentleman towards
those Members on that side of the House who had
supported the Noble Lord were just and proper. lie
wished to know, whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
and the Cabinet adopted the phrase " Jack Cade
course of Legislation" used by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman in reference to the twenty-three Members of
that House who had been almost the consistent sup-
porters of the present Government since they came
into office. He put the question to his Right Hon.
Friend (Sir R. Peel), he need not use any offensive
expression, nor apply any epithet nor say any thing
which might engender bad feeling; but would sit
down by asking if the Government adopted the ex-
pressions of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary
of State for the Home Department.
Sir J. GRAHAM rose, apparently labouring
under some excitement, and said—l used the phrase
—(A pause)--T am answerable for it, and with sub-
mission to the House, I will answer the Right Hon.
Gentleman, or, if he will allow me to call him so,
my Right Hon. Friend. Notwithstanding the
" friendly spirit"—(A laugh)—in which my Right
Hon. Friend put the question, I must say that he
did not act quite fairly in attempting to make the
Cabinet responsible for my words, for my Right
Hon. Friend very well knew that, for expressions
used in the heat of debate by a member of the Cabi-
net, all the members of the Cabinet are not respon-
sible—none but the member of it who used them.
That phrase does not affect, and has no reference to,
any deliberations here or elsewhere. When I used
the phrase; I distinctly stated that I had read it in a
newspaper within forty-eight hours, and I adopted it.
I hope the Right Hon. Gentleman will not carry the
expression further than the words warrant. It was
used in the heat of debate, and I did not mean any
disrespect to my Right Hon. Friend, or any other
Hon. Member.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said the intimacy between him
and the Right Hon. Baronet was of old standing ;
and, in answer to his question, whether he would
call him friend, he candidly answered that he hoped
he would long call him so.—(Cheers.) His question
was to the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the
Government, who had not answered his question.--
(Laughter, in which Sir R. Peel joined.)
Mr. BERNAL did not think the expres-
sion of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham)
should affiliate the Government in the phrase of which
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the University
of Oxford complained. The Government were not to
speak of the danger of invading the freedom of
labour, and interfering with the hours of factory
work. The principle had been acted upon forty
years ago.- The door had been opened to this species
of legislation forty years ago, in the Acts regarding
parochial apprentices. The operative classes in the
country would not be satisfied unless the measure of
the Noble Lord were carried into operation. The
Government had called for reports; those reports
showed the necessity. for legislation. Medical certi-
ficates, and the opinions of those best entitled to con-
fidence, clearly demonstrated the absolute need of
ParliamentAry interference.—(Hear, hear.)

Lord SANDON wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman if the alterations proposed by him would
affect adult female labour ?

Sir J. GRAHAM would give a decided answer to
the question of his Noble Friend. After the course
sanctioned by the House in Committee, he was pre-
pared to say that the Government would not include in
its limitations adult female labourers, putting them
on the same footing as infant labourers had been al-
ready placed upon,
Mr. HINDLEY said he had taken a great deal of
pains during the last fifteen years to investig,we this
subject. If the working-men got a Twelve Hours'
Bill by their own efforts, they would not rest satis-
fied with it, but proceed farther.

Mr. FERRAND said—l rise to notice a remark
which the Right Hon. the Secretary for the Home.
Department made—l allude to his application of the
words " Jack Cade."—(Cries of " Order, order.") If
the Right Hon. Baronet retracts—(The Hon. Mem-
ber having been called to order)—

Sir J. GRAHAM said that he tad over and over
again, during his argulnents on this subject, dis-
claimed the slightest intention of anything like an of-
fensive or general application of the word.
Itlr. FERRAND expressed his satisfaction at the
explanation of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said as this question
was one of vast importance, he hoped the Noble Lord
would state the course which he proposed to adopt.
In this case the general principles of legislation had
been departed from. What could be a more general
principle than that children should be left to the care
of their parents to educate and protect—that they
should be dependent upon paternal affection for tend-
ing and seeing after their interests ? Such was the
principle upon which all legislation rested, so far as
those matters were concerned. But had they kept to
that principle ? No. They found it necessary to
depart from it, and in the beginning of the last cen-
tury a man of most benevolent intentions first intro-
duced a measure on the subject, and again this prin-
ciple had been departed from, in 1833, with the sanc-
tion of the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite. There was another principle involved
in this matter, and that was, that persons
should be free to dispose of their labour as they
thought would be most profitable to themselves, to
make whatever contracts they liked with respect to
remuneration. But her Majesty's Ministers, in the
Bill now before the House, had departed from that
principle, and, considering this, he thought that they
had been inconsistent ; because, in the Factories Bill
of last year, they had never interfered at all with the
hours of labour. In this debate there were two par-
ties—the one, who were unwilling that there should
be any interference with industry; and the other, as
had been stated, in bringing forward a kind of Jack
Cade proposition, and setting the question in a
wholly different light. He confessed, that if a
Bill for the regulation even of adult labour,
founded on a Report of Commissioners properly
authorised, were brought in, he should not like
to take upon himself the responsibility of object-
ing to it. The present question resolved itself into
this—namely, whether young persons of twelve,
thirteen, or fourteen years of age, were injured by
being compelled to work twelve hours a day, and
whether, if this period were reduced from twelve hours
to ten hours, it would be possible to give sufficient
wages for that amount of labour, and leave profit
enough to the capitalist and manufacturer to induce
them to give employment to the vast population
of Lancashire and Yorkshire; or whether it would be
consistent with the general interests of the manufac-
turers to make this diminution. This was the ques-
tion he thought, and the Government maintained it
would be injurious to all those interests, and that the
proposition of the Noble Lord would excite discon.
tant amongst the masters and the operatives, Rua
cause a diminution of employment. He gave the
Government every credit for being actuated in the
course they were about to adopt, by conscientious
motives, and for taking every fair means to prevent
injurious consequences to the manufacturing interests,,
while, on the other hand, he thought the other party
introducing those new principles, could not be at all
designated as revolutionary in their support of the
proposition. He should wish to apply himself to a
consideration of all the bearings of this great and
momentous question before next Friday, and he
trusted that the Noble Lord opposite would also con-
sider the matter before next Thursday, and state to.
the House his views, and the course he intended to,
adopt.
Mr. HUME thought it a wise course to adjourn this
i matter, as then both the House and the country would
have an opportunity of considering the matter. Nearly
twenty years ago, a Committee consisting of fiftronn
Members, whose party views differed from each ober
quite as much as those of lion. Members who took a Alt
in this debate, and the result of their suggestions was to