The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-15 00:00:00

to the improved charac'er of the people n-
gaged in fealties, arising out of an al erasion in th'
law. He really did not think this was the way in
whieh that House ought to be addressed. The address
of the Noble Lord had a social or sentimental tinge un-
suited to the a•Anosphere of that assembly, which was
business assembly, one of whose duties was to be sure to
look to the social wants of the people ; but'then the re-
quirements of the people were to be dealt with in a dif-
ferent manner from that suggested by the Nob'e Lord,
who seemed to exhibit more of the enthusiast, than the
practical men of business, in his observations that

HIGh WAY BILL.
On the motion that the High Nay Bill be read a second
time,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE expressed his opinion that the
measure was of rueh vast importance that it could not
pass through a second rending in its present form, with-
out eliciting some discussion. Ile considered that the
matter was intimately connected with labour, and would
suggest the appointment of "way wardens," as preferahle
to leaving the management in the hands of the poor-law

50 masters, and found that 20 of them approved of the
Ten Hours Bill, 22 of them were for an Eleven Hours
Bill, and 15 for a Twelve Hours Bill. The same inspec-
tor personally, and assisted by others, took the opinions
both of the men and of the women employed in fac-
tories. ' The result was a very decisive ove as to their
desires. He took the opinions altogether of 1,153 per-
sons, which were stated in the report of the belle, e
it
ending October 31, 1848. The number of male opera-
tives was 651, of whom there were 441 in favour of a
Ten Hours Bill, 96 for an eleven hours, and 114 for
a twelve hours system. Of the 502 women who
were consulted, 272 were fur a ten hours, 51 for an
eleven hours, and 179 for a twelve hours system. This
curious result showed sufficiently that any a•tempt at
a compromise was most unlikely t be attended with
success.—(Hear, hear.) He did not regard the Ten
Hours Bill as being the sole cause of the improved state
of things which had of late been observed in the manu-
facturing districts. He ogre et' with his Honourable
Friend near him, that it was to be ascribed to those
measures which had made food more cheap and abun-
dant, but he would remind him at tho same time that
this change would not have produced such results had
it not been accompanied by the Ten Hours' Bill, for no
cheapness of food could have given to the operatives those
opportunities of improvement of which there was such
abundant evidences of their not being neglectful.—
(Hear.) If it was not the cause, still it was one essen-
tial condition, without which these results would not have
been realised. He trusted that the Noble Lord who in-
troduced this discussion would adhere most strictly to
his declared purpose of deviating not one hair's
breadth. from what was understood to be the inten-
tion of the enactment as it now stood. He
thought it as well, as the Noble Lord proposed, to
leave the Bill in its present integrity, as to the purpose
wLich was most distinctly declared when the Bill was
last before the House. Perhaps there might have been
a violation of the statute, but it must not be forgotten
that the millowners, operatives, and proprietors had been
equally desifous for the settlement of this question. The
parties most deeply affected by the statute were, the
women and very young persons, whose dependent con-
dition frequently rendered them the subjects of very
harsh treatment, not only by their masters but by their
husbands, of which there were unfortunately many in-
stances. This was an example, amongst others, of evils
for which this Bill provided, and with reference to which
the greatest of living political economists—he meant
Mr. John Mill—said, in the case of women and child-
ren—" Freedom of Contract meant nothing more than
freedom of coercion."—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fox)
trusted that, the law being decidedly declared, there
would be a more general concurrence between owners
and employed than had yet existed; and that they might
speedily attain to the final close of en agitation, the con-
tinuance of which was everywhere to be deprecated—an
agitation which was much worse than any political
struggle; because it struck deeper into the social system,
and inflicted snore wounds on the best and purest interests
of society, and on the harmony which should bind so-
ciety together.—(Cheers.)
Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR said he only rose in
consequence of an observation which fell from the Hon.
Member for Manchester, by which he understood that in
case any Hon. Member should state a grievance and
propose a remedy, the efficacy of which was not doubted,
he should immediately render himself liable to the im-
putation of Socialism and Communism. That was an
alternative that not only could not exist but in the most
illiberal mind, but had a signification elsewhere, which
peculiarly ought to recommend its being avoided. He
thought the Noble Lord the Member for Bath, who had
brought the subject before the House, had very properly
put it upon the footing he had, and that he would remain
true to his original intention.—(Hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that as he understood
there was to be no opposition to the introduction of
this Bill he was unwilling to prolong an unnecessary
discussion. He must say, however, that he was dis-
posed to approach this question in the most dispassion-
ate manner; and his Noble Friend the Member for
Bath would excuse him if he said he (Lord Ashley) had
prepared him for a discussion of an opposite descrip-
tion, when before ascertaining whether there would
be an opposition to his motion, he went through all the
arguments that were urged three or four years age. An
lion. Member who had spoken in the debate had threat-
ened, in a prophetic manner, the discontent of the manu-
facturing classes if this Bill were not passed. The ear-
lieA of his (Sir J. Graham's) political experience had
taught him the folly of dealing in prophecy, and there-
fore he should cautiously abstain from prophesying any-
thing.—(Laughter.) Neither would he make assertions
at this period of the debate; for if he had bad the
honour of speaking to the House before the Right Hon.
Baronet the Home Secretary, it was his intention to
have offered evidence on the subject to the House; and
he should have stated that his object in framing the Bill,
as he introduced it, was to prohibit the" shift" or "relay"
system in any form whatever. That was his original
intention, and he would • now state to the House what
occurred on the occasion. He could not say that at any
time, following the bent of his reasoning, he was favour-
able to a restriction on the rights of capital and of labour,
and he was not favourable to a twelve hours Bill. But
finding that restriction provided for by an Act of Par-
liament, it was represented to him by the factory in-
spectors that it worked unequally and unjustly, and it
was said that unless restrictions were placed on the limit
of time very injurious consequences would ensue. They
pre ised on him also the necessity of a direct enactment.
Reluctantly he assented, and directed Mr. Horner to
have a clause framed embodying these views. That was
accordingly done in the first drefi of the Bill, and here
as the impel feetion of the measure; for he was not
aware until then that the course originally determined
upon ,had been materially altered in the second. He con-
sidered that it was very desirable that the House. before
the discussion proceeded farther, should see the mea-
sure which his Noble Friend proposed to introduce on
this subject. lie believed that the object of the work-
ing classes was to see justice fairly carried out, and
he felt that this was the object of his Noble Friend,
as related to the Tea Hours' Bill. His Noble Friend's
argumeat would go the length, that manufacturers
had nothing to fear on this subject. He had be-
stowed much consideration on this question, and his
feeling towards the working classes was very fa-
vourable, but his belief was, that if this experiment
was carried out with all its intentions' the time .would
come when the working classes would themselves be
convinced that the measure would be conducive to their
welfare. He believed that the working classes were of
opinion, with regard to the measure of 1844, that they
should have the benefit of shifts and relays. When the
short hours Bill was first brought forward, ho confessed
he was, as far as his own opinion went, reluctant to in-
terfere in the question of employment between the em-
ployed and the master manufacturers, having a strong
disinclination to meddle with the► interests of labour; but
a gentleman now no more—Mr. Stuart—having ex-
pressed his views in so strong a manner to him on the
subject, he instructed him to embody those views in a
clause, although his own feelings were opposed to them.
It was necessary, in his opinion, that they should have
one uniform system and one rule; and he was quite sure
that they never could work this measure unless they
came to a better regulation of machinery. Ho should be
most anxious to see the Bill of his Noble Friend before
they approached this discussion, and he should, before the
second reading, endeavour to refresh his memory as to
his former views on the subject. As between the shit t
and relay system, it was quite possible to repudiate the
one without condemning the other.
After a few words from Mr. EDWARDS, the se-
conder of the motion, in relation to an allusion made
to him by the Right Honourable Baronet Sir James
Graham,
Col. THOMPSON observed that it was well known to
all who took an interest in this question, that when a
restriction of the period of labour was first proposed he
had opposed it, conceiving it to be an attack in some
sort upon the manufacturing interest. Times, however,
had altered, and perhaps the position of things had
changed. lie had received instructions on this subject
from many of his constituents, but it so happened that
all their communications pointed one way. They all
said they. were anxious that the Ten Hours Bill should
be restored to its integrity; and the manufacturing ca-
pitalists particularly represented their anxiety that li-
berty should be given to all persons in their employment
at the same time—(hear, hear)—for they stated that
they had set on foot institutions of various kinds for the
education and improvement of their workpeople, the
success of which mainly depended on the' point thati all
in their employ should be liberated from work at one and
the same hour.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. BROWNE,
Lord ASHLEY replied. He had no other intention
than Co settle the point in question, and he intended,
therefore, to bring in a Bill that the hours of labour
being at present limited to ten hours a day should be
continuous labour, and date from the time at which the
labour began. That was the sum and substance of the
Bill which he meant to bring in. He had been charged
in the course of this discussion by the Honourable Mem-
bers for Manchester with inimical feelings towards the
master manufacturers. By one of the Honourable Gen-
tlemen he was charged with being a " hired" advocate
in this cause; and by the other with entertaining " So-
cialist" views upon it. In those respects he had beet
much misrepresented. Ho rejoiced at the manner in
which his motion, generally speaking, had been received
by the House, and should the Bill be carried his hope
was that it would be productive of allaying the agitation
which at present prevailed between the working classes
and the master manufacturers; and should the Bill not
to passed, what would the effect be?—(Elear, hear.)
He declared that the whole tendency of his political
and public life (now extended over a period of 'seventeen
years) had been towards a restoration of good feeling
between the working classes and the master manufac-
turers.—(Hear, hear.) He had only one word more to
add. Depend upon it there was no subject on which the
people felt so strongly as this; and with respect to the
motives attributed to him by the Hon. Members for
Manchester, he couldonly say that he rejoiced at such a
manifestation of the feebleness of their cause, for ho saw
that they had recourse to the :old and coarse rule-0 If
you can't refute your antagonist, why then abuse him."--
(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. BRIGHT explained that he had recalled the word
" hired" immediately after he had used it, and substi-
tuted the word " pledged" advocate, and he trusted that
the Noble Lord would not suppose that he meant to be
personally offensive to him.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. PEW gave notice that he would bring in a " Bill
to render more simple and effectual the titles by which
congregations or societies, or persons for religious pur-
peses, held property required tor such purposes." The
Bill, the Hon. Member said, was so simple, and would
so tar recommend itself to the House, that he should not
at present make any observations upon it.
The House then proceeded to the orders of the day.
On the motion that the Speaker leave the Chair,
The House resolved itself into Committee (Mr. Ber-
nal in the chair) on the Titles of Religious Congrega-
tions (Scotland) Bill, which passed rapidly through that
process.

guardian,.
Mr. RICE gave his support to thetheasure, and hoped
the second reading would be carried.
Sir G. STRICKLAND objected to the Bill as being
of a compulsory nature, and affecting districts of England
where the roads where in good repair, as well as those
where the roads were neglected. All the farmers
would oppose the measure most strenuously. Ile
hoped that it would at all events be put off to another

evening.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR thought that the speech of the
Noble Lord was plain, straightforward, and practical.
It clearly pointed out the hardships to which the fac-
tory operatives were subjected, led the mode in which
he ought to be relieved. The Bill which the Noble
Lord proposed to bring in was the only way in which
the factory operative could be benefi:ed, lie con-
tended that a limit ought to be placed on male adult
labour in factories. The much maligned agricultu-
rists did not ;employ their labourers beyond, ,eleven
hours a day, while the factory operative was
obliged, by the relay system, to work fifteen hours.
The consequence was, that the ag icnitural labourer
was healthy and strong, while the letter was sickly and
Keck. The truth was, that the factory system was an
abomination, and its exist-nee reflected a disgrace on the
Legislsoure,,of the count.y. The average length of a
factory operative's life was 28 years, while that of the
agricultural labcurer, even in Dorsetshire, was 53 years.
The syst en had been well explained by the Noble Lord
who had male a powerful speech on the occasion—a
speech that would speak to the world, while that of the
Right Hon. Gentleman M. Gibson) was only in-
tended fur a district. Most audacious attacks had been
made by the Noble Lord opposite on that excellent man
Mr. Oastler, who had properly exhibited to the world
the character of the millowners, and he (Mr. O'Connor)
would say that if he wanted to put his hand upon a set of
tyrants he would do so by placing it on the master ma-
nufacturers of the north.—(Elear.)
Sir R. INGLIS rose to defend his Noble Friend
against the imputations cast upon him by the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson), who had stated that the
speech of his Noble Friend was marked by enthusiasm.
All good works had been effecte'l through the influence
of enthusiasm, but enthusiasm was not a marked attri-
bute of his Noble Friend's speech, for it was filled with
fact;, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had better meet
than attempt to upset them by unfairly describing the
speech which contained them. The law which had
passel the Legislature bad been decided by the judges
to be that which the Legislature never intended it should
be. This being so, it was the duty of the House to
amend the law generally.. He must say that he thought
the proposal of his Noble Friend was that best suited to
meet the exigencies of the case. He would support with
pleasure the proposition of his Noble Friend.
Mr. BRIGHT said, it seemed to be admitted by all
parties that it was deriirabli to bring in a Bill to settle
the question to which the measure referred. He only
rose to express an opinion on a subject which might have
its influence at a future stage of the Bill—he meant the
number of hours which operatives should be engaged in
factories. It was well known that he was extensively
engaged in factory employment, and observed that in
order that a measure, in respect to factory employment,
should work beneficially for the employer and the em-
ployed, it was essential that the view of both parties
should be taken into carefai consideration, and that the
legislation should not be all on one side.—(Hear.) It
was a fact that the Ten Hours' Bill did not pass with the
concurrence of the master manufacturers, and the result
was, that, in many instances, the working men had been
suhjected to disadvantages in certain factories. But
this was the result of the estrangement which
took place between the employer and the employed,
owing to the Act of 1847. He appealed to the Noble
Lord whether he would limit his Bill to ten hours. He
was not bound to do so, for not a small portion of the
operativee, and the great body of the employers, were
anxious to meet each other in a spirit of conciliation,
and come to some terms by which this matter might be
adjusted.—(Hear.) He would not condescend to reply
to the coarse vituperation pouredupon the master menu-
f acturere by the lion. Member for Nottinghatn.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman had tried his hand at improving
the position of the factory operatives, under which he
had deluded them from their employment, and ultimately
succeeded in placing them in-a quagmire, from which
they could not escape.—(llear.) When the Hon. Gen-
tleman returned to these deluded men their subscrip-
tions, which he bad received from them to carry out a
most fallacious system, then be might be permitted to
have some claim to assail the master manufacturers,
if they deserved his attacks; but, until that time, he
thought he might fairly say that the master menu-
facto; ers would not be much affected by anything which
fell from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Hear.)
Heretofore the Noble Lord declared himself to be the
pledged advocate of the factory operatives, and in that
line of policy it seemed to be his object to do all in his
power to blacken the character of the factory employers.
The Noble Lord row attributed all the improvement in
the factory operatives to his Ace of 1847. Now, seeing
that the Bill did not come into operation until May, 1848,
it was rather too much to attach to it all the improve-
ment which he admitted the factory people manifested.
Much of this improvement he assigned to the altered
state of the law in respect to the commercial policy of
this country. He should be sorry to see a system of
things which should compel men to work for ten, eleven,
or twelve hours a day. The factory owners did not de-
sire it, and any further legislation on this subject ought,
in his opinion, to make some diminution of the margin,
and thereby afford the means of remedying at least some
of the grievances compleineel Of. In carrying -out this
object they should avoid giving cause for the hostility of
manufacturers, supposed 'to bo represented in that
House; for they must not shut their eyes to this fact,
that unless there were a fair amount of agreement
between the capitalist who pays the wages, and the la-
bourers who did the work, their legislation must of ne-
cessity prove unsatisfactory. Within the last two years
he thought there was not a good feeling between the
employers and the employed. The exasperation still
existed, and would continue to exist, so long as the law
exi,ted in its present shape. He would now ask the
Noble Lord whether, with the influence he possessed
with many persons out of doors connected with
the manufacturers, and representing as he did a
very large portion of them, be could not persuade
them to take the rational view of this question—
(Hear, hear)—whether it was not possible to come
to some arrangement which should meet with the
concurrence of all parties concerned. If the Noble Lord
did not think that plan impracticable, and the House
came in that spirit to the consideration of the measure,
he hoped they would discus's and settle, and settle fur
ever, a question which had done more to desecrate a cor-
dial interchange of kindly feelings between ' the two
classes, and to foster beart-burnings in the manufactur-
ing districts, than any question which had arisen there,
at least since he had been connected with them.
Mr. AGLIONBY observed that the discussion, so far
as it had proceeded, had not been unattended with ad-
vantage, though from the concurrence of opinion upon it
he had certainly hoped that it would have come to a
more speedy conclusion. He agreed with much of what
had fallen from the lion. Member for Manchester, who
spoke last, especially that which had reference to the im-
port mce of procuring a certain amount of concurrence
from all the parties concerned in the question, before
proceeding to a final legislative enactment, but he dif-
fered from him entirely with respect to the conclusions
at which he would arrive, because be believed that be
would find it utterly impossible to obtain that harmony
of feeling and reciprocity of purpose which he so much
and very properly desired. It was fir the character of
the Legislature to take care, by passing well-digested
measures, that the public should not have to say that
they were unable to give effete to their intentions. Here
their intention cis arly was to restrict the hours of labour
to ten, an intention which the language of the Act the
reverse of seconded. The judges' construction of the
Act was undoubtedly right, but their intention re-
mained the same, and should now be properly borne
out by the law if it befere was defective. He should
never make a single remark of censure on these mill-
owners, who had construed the law according to an in-
terpretation which it it had been held to admit of. Still
less would he think of charging them with having
evaded the law, as the judgment showed that they, had
a right to construe it as they' did ; but he would say
that he would do his best to carry out the intention of
the Legislature with respect to this Bill, that of render-
ing it bone fide a ten hours working Bill.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS said he wished to state
most emphatically that he and those who thought with
him were firmly resolved that there, should be no com-
promise. That the manufacturing people of Lancashire,
Yorkshire, and Scotland haehng, after thirty-three
obtained an enactment which
years' incessant
biencetessramnetdetffrts,
hoeMagna Chart% of their rights,
were determined to preserve it, in which intention he
promised that they should be backed by their represen-
tatives in that House. During the progress of the agi-
tation of this question he had endeavoured to promote
the unity of feeling between the millowners and the
factory hands, which the Hon. Member for Manchester
had spoken of. The lion. Member had, in his opi-
nion, very wrongly censured the Noble Lord the
Member for Bath, who introduced this motion, for not
going into the details of the system which he proposed.
What he thought the House required was to know the
grievance that was to be redressed, and then the diffi-
culty of providing the remedy would be reduced within
very narrow limits.. The Honourable Member was still
more incorrect in calling this a hasty and inconsiderate
measure. After 33 years of agitation and discussion,
which ended in its adoption, he did not think that was
the mode in which an enactment should be spoken of,
the intention of which was to provide a remedy for many
grievances, under which a large portion of our working
population had been admitted to liebour. The amended
Bill was most necessary, and it should have his ready
support.—(Ha ar, hear.)
Mr. W. J. FOX said he wished to say a few words,
and a very few, on the subject, before the discussion was
brought to a close. Particularly agreeing with the Hoc.
Member for Manchester, that, a satisfactory settlement
of this question must have as great a concurrence as
possible of the employers and the employed, he ques-
tioned whether there might he any possibility of a
shorter road to that consummation than what had been
suggested by the Noble Lord who opened the discussion.
For he believed that not only was there a difficulty, which
arose from a determined pursuit through a long course
of years in search of this very measure against any com-
promise materially affecting the Ten Hours' Bit!, but
this difficulty also, that in the intention of the Legisla-
ture, and with the concurrence of a large portion of the
manufacturers, the hours of labour were to be curtailed
in the manner pointed out by the statute.—(Hear, hear.)
From the statements of the inspectors, and the reports of
other parties whose opinions had been taken on the
subject, the masters and operatives, with reference to
virtues questions put to them, shewed that there was
no appearance of any other scheme being brought into
operation. Mr. Farmer took the opinion of upwards of

session.
Mr. HENLEY suggested that the second reading
should be postponed until eLer Easter. The Bill would
overload the boards (f guardians with additional work,
and distract their attention from duties which ought to

claim their earnest attention.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not join in the advice
eithar to postpone the Bill until after Easter or to next
session. The Bill at all events had simplicity to recom-
mend it, and on the whole he thought the Government

entitled to support in the measure.
After a brief conversation, in which Mr. Hildyard, Mr.
Aglionby, Mr. lloldsworth, Mr. Philip Howard, and Cap-
tain Harris. took part.
Mr. LEWIS stated, in reply to Mr. Cardwell, that
the Bill was not intended to extend to any districts that

appointed surveyors under local Acts.
Mr. HODGSON moved that the second reading be

postponed for six months.
Sir GEORGE GREY said there was a great desire
that some more efficient system should be adopted for the
improvement of the highways, and he trusted the House
would consent to the second reading of the Bill. It was
no argument against the Bill to say that the roads in
one part of the country were good and in another part
bad, and therefore, for the general improvement of the
present system of management, he should press the se-
cond reading of the Bill.
Mr. P. BENNET supported the amendment, as he
objected to the poor-law guardians appointing the sur-
eerveyors of those roads.
Mr. FREWEN also objected to the Bill, as it would
completely change the syetem throughout the country.
The roads in many places were good, and why introduce
such a sweeping measure as this, which included the
whole country. He also objected to the powers con-
ferred on the poor-law guardians by the Bill.
Mr. DEEDES supported the second reading of the
Bill. He believed that anything which might appear
obnoxious in it could be remedied while in Committee,
and as there was great reason to find fault with the .pres
sent system he should Support the second reading.
Sir WILLIAM JOLLIFFE considered that the
principle of the Bill was to make the improvement of
the roads part and parcel of the poor-law, which would
occasion great inconvenience ; and he should vote
against the second reading.
After a few words from Mr. Adderley, Mr. Ferrer,
Mr. Henley, and Mr. C. Lewis,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... 55
For the second reading ... 144
Majority for the second reading —B9
The Bill was therefore read a second time.
CHIEF JUSTICES' SALARIES BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill having been read,
Mr. GOULBURN said he wished to know whether
the measure was to contain soy provision upon the sub-
ject of the retiring allowance of the chief justices ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Bill did
not contain any privision upon that point ; but they
might, if they pleased, take it into their consideration in
the Committee.
Mr. MULLINGS said be thought they ought to defer
the second reading of that Bill until they should have
before them returns which bad already been ordered of
the amount of patronage in the hands of the chief justices.
It certainly appeared to him that in the present circum-
stances of this country, and after the recent fall in
prices, 8,000/. was too large a sum to pay as a salary to
a chief justice. That learned functionary did not per-
form duties more onerous or more responsible than
those of the Secretary for the Home Department, who
received only 5,000/. a year. He believed that many
Hon. Gentlemen were not aware of the amount of dis-
ress which at present prevailed throughout a great por-
tion of the country. But he had himself suffered from
that distress. In the year 1842 he had invested in the
purchase of an estate the earnings of a long and labo-
rious life, and he found that he could not derive a re-
turn for that investment if the most rigid economy were
not practised in every branch of the public service.
Mr. R. PALMER (said, that as he did not belong to
that branch of the profession -front which chief justices
were usually taken, he believed that he could speak
impartially upon ;that subject. It appeared; tot him
that it would be a matter greatly to be deplored if that
House were to go too fast in the way of the reduction
of judicial salaries.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could be
more essential to the good working of our constitution
than that justice should bo administered among us with
efficiency, learning, and purity, and that object could
net be attained unless they gave to the judges
such salaries as would enable them to command the
services of the most eminent members of the legal pro-
fession. It might bo true that the duties of the Chief
-Justice were not more onerous or important than those
of a Secretary for the Home Department ; but then it
should be remembered that secretaries of state in this
country were usually men,,of ,independent fortune,. and.
that in accepting the office they did not give up a pro-
fession from which they derived considerable incomes.
In the United States judges received very small salaries;
but the consequence of that was' that the most eminent
members of the legal profession in that country were un-
willing to allow themselves to be raised to the judicial
bench ; and after they had been so raised it was no un-
usual thing to find them accepting the more profitable
office of registrars in the very courts in which they bad
presided. He again implored the House not to proceed
too fast in the system of reducing the incomes of judges,
for he believed that a more ruinous economy could not
be adopted.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. SPOONER said that although the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had just addressed the House
was not a member of that branch of the profession from
which chief justices were usually taken. he was a mem-
ber of that branch from which Lord Chancellors were
commonly selected, and from the talent displayed in that
House by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, be (Mr.
Spooner) should not be surprised if he was one day to
become a candidate for that office.—(Laughter.) But it
was clear that the amount of salary paid to one judge
ahould, more or less, regulate the amount of salary paid
to every other judge, and the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman might not, therefore, be able to decide upon that
point as impartially ei 14 appeared to imagine. It cer-
tainly appeared to him (Mr. Spooner) that if 8,000/. bad
been found a sufficiently large salary for a Cniet Jus-
tice seventeen years ago, it was an excessive salary at
present.
Sir G. GREY said that some Hon. Members seem to
forget that that was a Bill, not for increasing, but for
reducing the salaries of the chief justices. It would a'
one reduce the salary of the Chief Justice of the Court
of Queen's Bench from 10,0001. to 8,0001.; and it would
prospectively reduce the salary of the Chief Justice of
the Court of Common Pleas trom 8,0001. to 7,000/.; so
that the result of rejecting the measure would be that a
reduction in their salaries could not take place.—(A
laugh.) He thought that the Committee would be the
fittest place for deciding what the precise amount of
either should be.
Colonel SIBTHORP trusted the second reading of
the Bill would be postponed until after the financial
statement. He considered all official persons too highly
paid.
The Bill was then read a second time.
PROCESS AND PRACTICE (IRELAND) BILL.
The several clauses of this Bill having been agreed to i
in Committee,
Mr. SADLEIR rose and moved the addition of several
clauses, the object of which, he said, was t r prevent the
frauds which the existing system of simple attachment
gave rise to in Ireland.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the clauses pro-
posed by the Hon. Member were similar to those which
had been submitted to her Majesty's Government by the
Chamber of Commerce in Dublin; but, after full consi-
deration, he had arrived at the conclusion that they could
not be introduovd into the present Bill.
After a short conversation, in which the Attorney-
General, Mr. Sadleir, Mr. G. .A. Hamilton, Mr. Rey-
nolds, Mr. Grogan,:and others, took part, the clauses
were understood to have been withdrawn.
The House then resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Friday, the 22d inst.
The Committee on the Marriage Bill was postponed
until Thursday next.
Quarter t One o'clock.
and
Td htheeoHthoeursoerdaderiosuronfetdhset
adagy were then disposed of,

SIR JOHN FRANKLIN.
To THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
Sut,—As the utmost anxiety pervades all
classes respecting the safety of Sir John
Franklin and his brave companions, I am
induced to beg the favour of inserting in your
valuable journal the following suggestion, which
would undoubtedly be an improvement on the ex-
perimental balloons recently invented for the purpose
of distributing printed slips of paper at stated inter-
vals. There is every probability that paper would
soon be destroyed by the atmospherp of the Arctic
climes • therefore, in lieu of paper, slips of thin calico
or muslin, different colours, or thin printed slips of
silk, various colours. There would also be an ad-
vantage in adopting this latter, as the natives would
preserve them either from curiosity or a desire to
adorn their persons.
Your compliance would confer a favour on your
very obliged, humble servant
ART,
HUR GUINNESS.
Grenville-place, Brighton,
March 13, 1850.

num.—A lady in Kent has offered prizes of 51.
every year as a onnstening present to such of two
mothers of the peasantry class, whose first child shall
be born at the regular time after a marriage contracted
on the following conditions:—" Ist, That the young
woman shall have been engaged twelve months to
young man of good character. 2d, That .the engage-
ment shall have been declared to the clergyman of the
parish twelve months before the marriage. 3d, That the
clergyman shall have approved the general conduct of
t)e parties during that period.

THE SUN, LoNtIoN, 11 It I DAY EVENING, MARCH is, 1850.

cost not exceeding the present expense of water to
the South• Eastern and Brighton Companies, at their
stations at London-bridge and the Bricklayers' Arms.
—(Hear, hear.) The directors thought it their duty
to bring this matter before them ; and those who had
money to spare—(Laughter)—might perhaps like to
form a company for the purpose ; but if no other re-
sult should follow than the rental arising from the
right of way of such a supply of water over their line,
it would be a great object.—(Hear.) With regard to
the net earnings of the company, the shareholders
would hardly believe him when he told them that
they had even in this session been called upon to de-
fend their property against the construction of new
lines—(Hear, hear)—the extension of the North
Kent line—and though the,scheme had been defeated,
yet it had cost them 1,200/. ; and that sum, he might
observe, had been charged to revenue. Their earn•
inga were further lessened by the sum set apart for
the renewal of rolling stock or permanent way ; so
that the net earnings of the line were at the rate of
2i per cent. per annum, and a very small per-
centage it was.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
But there was some consolation in this—that if all the
capital were rendered productive, and if the conti-
nental lines were developed as he anticipated, their pro-
perty would stand in a position not very different
from Consols.—(Laughter.) This was a very diffe-
rent result from what they had a right to expect; but
if they looked those difficulties fairly in the face, the
company would be in a position to borrow money at
the rate of 3i per cent., and they would go to Parlia-
ment, as they proposed to do, on Monday next, and
show that they had met ) every obligation without
paying a dividend. With regard to their Ashford
and Hastings line, there was a clause in the Bill pro-
viding that if \the line were not finished by the
autumn of 1848, no dividend should be divided after
that till it was completed. They had received legal
advice, however, that this only applied to the capital
employed in the construction of that branch, and they
were further advised that they must pay interest upon
that capital, because interest was not dividend.—
(Laughter.) But to-day they had been served with
an injunction against their paying any dividend
whatever till that branch was completed. He had no
fear, however, of such an injunction being found
valid.—(Hear, bear.) With regard to the Reading,
Guildford, and Reigate line, he had to state
that when they came to the agreement with
that line, which was now in existence, they
were lured into it by the expectation of a great
reticulation of lines on the narrow gauge running
from Reading to Oxford and the north, thus giving the
South.. astern a direct communication with the
north of England. Notie of these lines had been
completed, but the South-Eastern Company had ful-
filled their agreements; and when the lines he al-
luded to were made, he still hoped that the Reading,
Guildford, and Reigate line, which was certainly at
present in a disaitrous condition, would be greatly
im

(proved. A compromise on the existing agreement
had been proposed, by which this company was to pay
5f per cent. on the 600,0001. already raised on the
Reading, Guildford, and Reigate line, and 4 per
cent. upon 200,0001. still remaining to be raised, thus
making the permanent guarantee on the whole
capital stock of that company 5f per cent. This
compromise he strongly recommended the share-
holders to accept. He concluded by proposing that
the report be adopted, printed, and circulated among
the shareholders.
Mr. RENSHAW seconded the motion.
Mr. Josien WILSON objected to that part of the re-
port which recommended Mr. Barlow's discovery of
iron sleepers and chains. He said the Greenwich
line was at first laid upon stone sleepers, which were
found to shake the engines to pieces, and it cost them
20,0001. to relay the line with the ordinary sleepers.
He, therefore, warned the shareholders not lightly
to go into this enormous expenditure which
might, perhaps, land them in as much more
to return to the old system. He complained of the
extravagant salaries on the establishment, not except-
ing that of the chairman, who, since he got 2,0001.
from the shareholders, had become the sole dictator
of the concern.—(Hear, hear.) Would they believe
it, that his honest and straightforward Friend,
Mr. Thompson, had not been called to a single com-
mittee meeting since he dared to say that the money
of the company was unfairly used ?—(Hear.) What
had proved Mr. Hudson's ruin had been applauded in
the case of Mr. M'Gregor. He had taken dividend
out of capital while the opposition of the North Kent
Company existed, and he was applauded for it. He
then compared the salaries on this line with those on
the midland, those on the latter being much lower
than the South-Eastern, Mr. Wilson proceeded in

this way for some time, now cheered by the share
holders, and now assailed by cries of " True" and
" Question," declaring his opinion that the chairman
was mismanaging the affairs of the company, and
that he rendered the funds of the company sub-
servient to the interest of a banking establishment in
Liverpool. He concluded by asking whether all the
funds for which the No. 2 shares were created were
paid off.
The CHAIRMAN said that the No. 2 shares were not
created for discharging bond debts only—the ether
purposes bad absorbed those shares, so far as the bond
debt was not discharged.
Mr. WILSON asked bow much of the bond debt was
not paid off?
The CHAIRMAN said the bond debt was set forth in
the report.
Mr. Wilson said the debt was not to be found in
the report. He would ask another question—How
much the steam-packet company owed the rail way ?
The CHAIRMAN—The amount was under 7,0001.
Mr. WILSON was then proceeding to denounce the
steam-packet company, but was met by the universal
hisses of the meeting, when he said he would not
touch further upon that. He then came back upon
the question of the directors, and said that the books
of the company were taken to the Chairman's house
and locked up there.
The CHAIRMAN—That is positively untrue.
Mr. Wilson—Grant him a committee, and be
would bring a man upon oath to prove all he said.
He did hope that the shareholders would, ere long,
propose a committee of investigation, and they would
find that their accounts were cooked, that dividend
had been paid out of capital, and that dissatisfaction
with the management was general all over the world.
—(Cries of " No, no.") He concluded with moving
that they only appoint one of the directors now going
out of office.
Mr. SMITH seconded the motion.
The CHAIRMAN replied to Mr. Wilson, and said he
had no doubt the meeting would listen to him after
several years of faithful service which he had devoted
to the company.—(Cheers.), Mr. Wilson had rung
the changes upon the liberal sum of 2,0001. which had
been allotted to him, but he had to say that if they
chose to revoke the sum voted last year, it was as
much at their service as on the day it was voted.—
(Cheers.) He declared that neither he nor the rest
of the directors would meet with Mr. Thompson, the
director alluded to by Mr. Wilson, as it was impos-
sible for them to meet with any man on other terms
than mutual confidence and good will. The charges
brought against him by that gentleman had been in-
vestigated by the committee appointed last year, and
he was ready to submit to any further investigation
—the only painful thing connected with it being, the
horrid sacrifice of his own property which had taken
place on this line.—(Cheers, and cries of " Who's in
the same boat ?") Yes, he admitted that; but he
could say that be held every share in the line
now that he held from the beginning.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He then defended the officers of
the establishment and their salaries, and retorted
upon Mr. Wilson that his interest in the Blackwell
Railway and the Gravesend steam-boats, induced him
to find fault with all that had been done on the North
Kent line. He challenged Mr. Wilson, or any
other, to compare the South-Eastern expenses with
the Brighton or any other line in similar circum-
stances. With regard to the directors, be declared
that nothing would induce him to sit at the board
with that man (pointing to Mr. Thompson). [This
expression led to loud cries of " Shame," and " Hear,
hear."] He trusted that this meeting would re-elect
the retiring directors, and proposed, if they did so,
that the directors should, at their first meeting,
ballot for the retirement of three of their number.
Mr. Thompson, the director alluded to, then read
a written statement of his complaints against his co-
directors. These referred to alleged misstatements in
former accounts, 4 debiting the capital account with
what belonged to revenue, and lending money.to
other parties in an irregular manner. The meeting
listened to the statement with considerable impati-
ence, .and there were several calls for Mr. Thompson
to state the cause of his quarrel with the chairman
and other directors, He said he had been attacked
because he denounced the mode in which the affairs
of the company were managed, and every insult bad
been heaped upon him to induce him to resign his
seat at the board ; but as be knew his own integrity,
he disregarded thei tactics which had driven twenty of
his predecessors to resign.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RATCLIFFE would like to know if any of the
other directors knew anything of these matters ?
Mr. Renshaw, raid that some of the affairs re-
ferred to took place before he was a director ; but he
had investigated the whole of them, and he could
declare upon his honour that there was not one word
of truth in what Mr. Thompson had stated.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear.") He had further to say, that
if they were to extract the truth out of Mr. Wilson's
statements, they would find it reduced to a very
small modicum indeed.
Mr. THOMPSON here (in a state of great excite-
ment) declared that Mr. Renshaw, who had contra-
dicted him in that infamous manner, was qualified
by the chairman, who had given him twenty shares
to enable him to be a director. He threw the charge
of falsehood back in his teeth.—(Loud cries of
" Order.") Yes, he told him to his teeth that it
was a falsehood.—(Cries of Shame," 6, Order,"
t' Chair.")