The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

TIIE S UN, LONDON, I7V.RDNVSD AY EVENING, MAY 1, 1850.

His Hen. Friend had ad tressed the liouae
with no pesty spirit or party purpose, and his object was
nee as in:imeted by the Chancellor ci the Exchequer,
te nasi a vote of cenatire on the Ministey.—(ll. ar,
Soiletermined, however, was the 'tints:. Hoe. Gentseman
to prevent the full discussien opinion on the stiejac•,
that he had ehareed the .n. Member fee with
in Lein, an attsck up al the Government. He (Ms. New-
de ,ate) had vet to Learn that a Government had the
right to to forbid an expression Of opinion upon a ques-
tion of expe.ndituae, and All less had her Majesty's
Government a right to preclude discussion on the pra-
sent occasion, as they themselves had, by the appointment
of a Committ -e, admitted that inquiry into the public ex-
penditure was necessary and expedient. It did not
Follow by any means that because the Chancsller
of the Exchequer had instanced cases of the St. Kathe-
rine D ,cks Company add the Great Western Railway
Company, who had been imprudent, that the House of
Commons was not to inquire into the expenditure of the
country, or advise her 11aje,ty'a Gevernm-nt upon the
c curse which they considered it most desirable to adopt.
—(hear, hear.) Those corporations were altogether
alien to the suhject-m atter of the present motion. The
object of his H in. Friend was not. t ► discharge the pub-
lic servants engaged in the various departments of the
Government, nor was it even by implication t east esti-
sure upon the Ministry, bat it simply amounted to this,
that inasmuch as we had arrived at an epoch in our
commercial policy which hel caused a destine in tee
value of all the necessaries of life, an opportunity was
afforded thereby far a revision of salaries, and for an
inquiry into the remuneration of the labour of the
public servants. He could show the House, by reference
to circumstances which had taken place in years
gone by, that the present proceeding was not
without precedent. He would allude to periods sub-
sequent t) 1793—the period chosen by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer—and he could show that, in the year
1801, the salaries of the artizans employed in the Ord-
nance-office had been increased, under the sanction of
Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the high price of food and
the necessaries of life. At that period it was proposed
to increase the salary of a Mr. Rose, but he, to his
credit be it said, declined to receive it. on the ground
that he had other sources of employment and did not
require it.—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that, in
1810, the Excise officers of Edinburgh had memorialised
the Treasury for an increase of salary, and that, in 1812,
the Commissioners of Excise had petitioned for an in-
crease of the salaries of their department, and that Lord
Liverpool, who was then in office, granted the applica-
tion, on the ground that inasmuch as food and all the
necessaries of life had become exceedingly dear, it was
just and reasonable to increase the salaries of the
public servants. He had alluded to those cases, because
he considered them important, and applicable to the
point under consideration. The reduction in prices that
had recently taken place operated to the a lvantsge of
the recipient of fixed money incomes. A reduction of
25 per cent. on an article like 100 sacks of wheat, worth,
say 1001., was an advantage to the owner of the salary
equal not merely to one-fourth, but to one-third of the
whole cost. The low rate of wheat hail been adverted
to by his lion. Friend as a proof of presperit s. Great
delusions had taken place on that subject. The lowness
of the rate of interest arose from the fluctuations in our
commercial and monetary regulations. The money
market was often glutted because the investine parties
had no profitable means of employing their capital. He
rejoiced that his Hon. Friend, who introduced the mo-
tion, had shown beyond a doubt, that if Government had
the will they could effect very great reductions in the
salaries of the public departments, for, as he had pointed
out, those salaries exceeded the amount paid for the
army and navy services. That being the case,
he would recommend to the Honourable Mem-
ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), when
he next addressed parties out of that House, to tell
those parties that there was another way of practising
economy than by reducing and weakening the defences
of the country. and that he would not venture to affirm,
as he had been doing, that there was no other mode by
which economy could be practised than by reducing
those establishments. His Honourable Friend bud
shown that Government had a sum of seven millions and
a half with which they could deal, the whole of which
was paid to parties resident iu this country, who were
deriving the full benefit of the reduction in the prices,
and in respect of whom reductions could be made in
consequence. In the pay of the acidic, they could not
make reductions,l or more than half e f his life was passed
in foreign countries, where his was denied the advantage .
from the reduction of prices in this country. Should
they deal with the consular establishments, they were
in the same situation ; but, taking into considera-
tion the whole question, he would leave it to
the country to decide who were the true poli-
tical economists. Was it his lion. Friend who recom-
mended that a per-tentage, equal to half the advantages
which the holders of those salaries were deriving from
the reduction of prices, should be taken off the salaries;
or was it those who, like the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, proposed to adopt the expenditure of a year
long past, without at all considering the altered circum-
stances of the then state of things and the present? To
his mind there could be no dount as to which of the two
parties were operating in the right direction. The one
adopted the expenditure of 1835 as the Shibboleth of a
movement, and us the basis of an agitation, in order that
by means of it they might get introduced into that
House motions which they were sure the common sense
of the Members of the House would not allow them to
support, and then to go forth and hold up to the ridicule
of inflated mobs the men who opposed their foolish
motions; but who were, in fact, contending for reduc-
tions in the expenditure in the only comietrnt and just
ground on which it could be granted. The other party
were those who demanded those reductions in the man-
lier he had just stated, and as those demands were just
he hoped the House would show on that occasion that it
would respond to them.
After a lapse of a short time strangers were ordered
to withdraw. but
Mr. HUNIE at length rose, and said that he considered
the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire one of
a practical and us. ful nature. With respect to the Com-
mittee appointed by the Noble Lord, he did net think
anything useful would result from the proposed inquiry,
which was limited to three branches of the service, and
on which the Government possessed all the necessary in-
formation. The Noble Lord was well aware of the du-
ties of the officers appointed by the Crown, and nothing
but the will was wanting to carry out such reductions es
he might think necessary. What was the proposition of
the Noble Lord ? A Committee "to inquire into the
salaries arid emoluments of offices held during the plea-
sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Par-
liament, voted in the annual estimates; and also into
the salaries and emoluments of judicial officers in the
superior courts of law and equity in the United King-
dom, and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges;
and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments
charged on the Consolidated Fund." lie (Mr. Hume)
thought the inquiry ought to be extended to other
branches; and he should have advised the Noble Lord
to adopt the motion of the Hon. Gentleman in deference
to public; opinion.—(Rear.) He did not think much re-
duction could be made in the salaries of the clerks, but
he was of opinion that their number might be consider-
ably diminished. The country would not rest satisfied
unless further inquiry was instituted. But after the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not
think that any one could expect to see the inqniry ex-
tended.
Lord J. RUSSELL—It is now going on.
Mr. HUME was aware of that, but he wished a re.
vision of all departments. Not that he was disposed to
refuse adequate salaries. Quite the contrary. .11e
would willingly increase salaries and pay of all kinds,
provided they could get rid of the enormous amount ex-
pended in pensions and half-pay. To say that all salaries
should be reduced to a certain extent would not be fair.
He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should have alluded to the parish of Marylebone. A
tnore unfortunate instance could not have been referred
to. He had himself spent three Saturdays in investi-
gating their accounts. The auditors compared the ex-
penditure of fifteen different parishes, and it appeared
that Marylebone was the most extravagant of them all.
—(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was
inquiry. No injustice was contemplated by it, nor
any reduction that would impair the public service.
What objection, then, could be urged against it of any
weight? He was ready to support any proposal likely
to be beneficial for the country. He did not think the
motion attributed any blame to the Government, and he
should vote for it without intending to impute such
blame. He regretted the Government should have ob-
jected to the motion, because an impression would gof rth
that they were not desirous of inquiry. He thought the
Noble Lord should have followed the example which he
himself gave in 1830, when he obtained the appointment
of a Committee to inquire into the salaries of heads of
offices. The reductions that had recently been made in
the Customs had worked well. If a partial revision had
produced beneficial results, a general revision would pro-
duce much greater. They might deal with the whole
revenue, excepting the parts of it allotted to payment of
the interest of the national deft and the civil list.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile had no desire to touch the civil list.
The readiness with which her Majesty had come forward
with the proposal that her income should be made liable
for the income-tax ought not to be forgotten.—(Ht art)
He hoped the House would nut consider this a party
vote. They were there as trustees of the public purse,
and it was their duty to promote economy. He should
vote fir the motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished, in a faw words, to explain
the principle on which he should vote. He intended to
vote for the motion, though he thought it a most use-
less one—a motion, in fact, almost without meaning,
yet he intended to vote for it.—(Hear, hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he understood, moved
the previous question ; but he would have done the mo-
tion greater injury if he had dealt with it otherwise. If
the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to the
motion—a motion which had been brought forward for
a purpose—of which the meaning was not in its words,
but in its intent, and which could not effect what its
mover intended—if the Right Honourable Gentleman
had acceded to each a motion, he would have gained the
popularity'of being:an economist by consenting to n mere
truism.—(Hear, hear.) Let them understand the pro-
position, for he liked to deal with gentlemen fired with
this new-born zeal for economy. It was for a humble
address to her Alajesty, praying for a careful revi-
sion of the salaries and wages paid in every depart-
ment of the public service, with a view to ade-
quate reductions therein.—(Hear, hear.) But that
was not all; there was a guarding clause—" due regard
being had to the efficient performance of the several
duties." Was not this preoisely the rule on which Mi-
nisters of the Crown had always acted ? The Noble
Lord might have accepted a proposition so qualified
without any hesi-ation. He wished t o know who the
parties were whose salaries it was proposed to revise?
He agreed with the lion. Member for Montrose, that
the fact of more persons being employed than was ne-
cessary would be a reasen for inquiry. But a great
farce was being played bsfore the country as to the re-
muneration of their public servants. They ought to

tintierst.a;“l where they ought to give. lie wris not one
who grudgPti ad- gusto payment to the hard-werkimg-
ervant. Sinec.t.ires were another affair. The Hon.
Baronet the Memiler for Marylebone had put his linger
on a rein okAbli, iteci. lie hoped he should base the
support of those great economists when he came to deal
wita sin(:curei, as he proposed t't do. With reference to
the motion before them; he had a Curious return relating
to the several establishments in the public service. The
highest was the Treasury. At present 37 persons were
emeleyed in managing the affairs of the Treasury. It
appeared that the average age at which per-
soes began service in the Treasury was twenty
years. Every man of business knew that a
grs at deal had to be learned as to the mere
business of the office, however instructed a person
might enterit in other respects. If a man possessing
the highest university honours were placed in the office,
he would his as a chill as regarded the business to be
done. lle would go there as a learner or student is the
public service. lie e its.ire.l at the age of 20, with a sa- '
Lary of ea/. a year. He must be there two years before
ail rise of sa:ary cal he granted. At present the clerks
is the Treasury were divided into four classes. The
lialsries of the first class were from 901. to 10)1. a-year;
on an average clerk would be 32 before he obtained
200/ a-year. Th,z salaries of the second class were from
100/. to 500/.; on an average a clerk would ba 50 before
he git his 500/. a-year. The question wag,
ware these gentlemen —f it they were gentle-
men overpaid? The salaries of the third class
were from 5001. to SOO/. a-year. The last class are those
with salaries of 1,0004 a-year; but before that salary
could be obtained, Vie age of 59 must have been reached.
—(Rear, hear.) He was talking of the ordinary work-
ing men—not of those with political influence to push
them ou.--Jleas, hear.) Now, looking to the habits
of this country—for they must look to habits—looking
to what a man must go through before he could
fit
himself for the office, and looking to the po-
sition he must hold in a great town like
London, where he had to meet others in the
position of gentlemen—was it to be said that a
man was overpaid who, at 60, found himself at the
highest salary in a public office of 1,0001. a year?—
(Hear, hear.) Would any man who had devoted his
years to the law think himself overpaid at 60 by obtain-
ing 1,000/. a year?—(Elear.) Then let them consider
the position of the clerk. From day to day his family
depended on his being able to perform his duty in his
office. In dealing with such men it was only fair to tike
into account the ordinary exigencies of society. Was it
to be said that the State should be niggardly to such
men, when, if they had adopted a mercantile life, they
would have been better paid?—(Au Hon. Member—
" No."] An Hon. Gentleman said, no. Why, let them
take any large mercantile establishment. Let them take
the Balk of England. It appeared that the cashier had
1,4001. a y ear, with a tree residence; the assistant
cashier, 1,000/.; the accountant, 1.200/.; and the as-
sistant-account act, 9701. a year. There was no niggard-
liness either in the disposition of the East India Company
with respect to the payment of their servants.—(Hear.)
Those servants were well paid, but they were efficient
men, who worked well, and, considering the nature of
their duties and the offices they filled, they were not
overpaid. But making all these admissions, knowing
the policy of Government, and maintaining, as he did,
that all those who rendered good service to the State
ought to be well paid, he would ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Administration whether it would not be
wise to disabuse the public mind of an erroneous impres-
sion which might be made upon it by his opposition to
the present motion to have a full and complete inquiry
into that subject—not for the purpose of passing a slur
on the Government, for it could not be impeached upon
that occasion, being only in the position of other Go-
vernments? There had been an opposition got up
against the present Administration such as few other
Administrations had been pressed with. It was an op-
position of an anomalous character. The peculiar fea-
tures of the present opposition were, that by legislation
on the subject of our commercial policy, that protection
which was formerly given to the productions of the
earth had been taken away, and therefore Gentle-
men on that (the Opposition) side of the House had
been suddenly smitten with an extraordinary love of
economy.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those
Honourable Gentlemen found, and he was delighted to
observe it, that the system which had so long prevailed
ought to be discontinued, and then said that as there
was no protection for them there should no longer be
protection for anybody el.e.—(Hear, and laughter.)
But the people of England were a generous people, and
he would try the question in the way in which the House
was called upon to try it in the case of the hard-working
men in our public offices.—(Hear, hear.) Men in high
stations were generally working men. The Honourable
Gentlemen on the Treasury benches at the opposite side
of the House received what were called large salaries.
He did not think these gentleman were overpaid,
although it might be considered an unpopular sentiment
to give utterance to. He had heard it stated that the
heads of many departments of the public service were
overpaid. He confessed he did not think such was the
case. Then, if they were not—if neither the heads
were overpaid, nor the subordinates overpaid, it could
only be in the number of persona employed that the al-
leged extravagance existed, and the required reductions
made. H. thought the Noble Lord would do well, there-
tore, in permitting that inquiry to take place. The Go-
vernment had an intere-t in that in which the interests of
the country were concerned; and therefore he consi-
dered it would have been better for the Government not
to have resisted the motion. When, therefore, he and
his friend the Hon. Member for Montrose went out into
the lobbies upon that division, they were not voting in
opposition to the present Government, but merely f r an
inquiry as to whether the service of the State was per-
formed at a rate which the State ought not to pay. He
again reiterated his impression that the Government
ought not to have resisted an inquiry into that matter.
Why should not an inquiry take place now? Why
should they have such a subterfuge with respect to it
as the moving of the previous question? The Noble
Lord conceived that the present was an inconvenient
erne for such an inquiry (i‘ No, no," from the Govern-
ment benches.) He should read the ordinary forms of
the House its the manner in which they were generally
taken. It was said that this was not the
proper time to entertain the subject, when the
previous question was moved in answer to
the motion before them. Now he would like
to know could there be a better time than the present to
entertain the subject before them? In what state was
the country? It was in circumstances of varied transi-
tions—with a new commercial policy instituted, and the
prices of the ordinary necessaries of life greatly fallen.—
(Hear.) No man could expect anything on the part of
the country but an acquiescence in the determinations of
that House.—(Hear, hear.) lie could conceive, then,
no combination of circumstances more favourable than
the present for such an inquiry, nor could he fancy any-
thing more impolitic than the opposition offered on the
part of the Government to that motion. He believed
the people of this country would be most generous in
their payment of their deserving public servants, if only
made aware that good and efficient services had been
rendered.—(Hear, hear.) He did not think there was
one inteliigent working man in the empire, who got his
bread by the labmir of his own hands, who would not
aid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in
paying those who did efficient service for the State. He
would oppose the motion of the Government by which
that question would be avoided, because he thought the
people of this country had a right to have that question
settled now.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL and some other Hon. Members rose to-
gether. There were loud calls for the former, and the
rest having given way, the Right Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to say that he agreed with so much of what had
fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member who had just
addressed the House, but particularly with regard to the
services of those occupying subordinate places in the
offices of the state, and the obligation due from the pub-
lic to them for the fidelity and integrity with which their
service were performed, that he was surprised, agreeing
with so much that had been said, he should come to a
different conclusion from that at which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir H. Peel), however, put a different construction, on
he intention-of the motion of. the Honourable Member
for Oxfardehire, and the manner in which it had been
met, namely, by moving the previous question, from that
construction put upon them by the Hon. and Learned
Member who had just spoken. He did not understand
the Honourable Member's motion as one asserting that
an inquiry should be instituted into the salaries of all
the chief offices of the State—into the diplomatic and
judicial departments of the country. He did not
think the Hon. Gentleman's object was t lead to a Par-
liamentary investigation into those matters ; but he
rather inferred that the Hon. Gentleman's resolution
went to impose on the Government that duty sought.to
be imposed on it by the motion introduced a short time
since by the H m. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
Disraeli), that the Government should be the party to
make the necessary reductions, and
.to introduce a
scheme for that purpose to the House, showing where
reductions were possible. (Hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member who last addressed the House said that
the motion embodied a truism, and, therefore, ought to
he agreed to. Now be (Sir R. Peel) apprehended that
a great many truisms had been introduced from time to
time jets that House which ought not to be acquiesced
iti.—(Hear, and laughter.) If the doctrine of the lion,
and Learned Gentleman were correct, every motion
which implied a truism ought to be assented to. Now
he (Sir H. Peel) thought the House of Commons ought
not to vote for truisms unless they had a practical effect.
—(Hear.) He considered the justification of the present
resolution interfered with the ordinary functions of the
Ex cutive Government, and it ought not, therefore, to be
agreed to, unless founded upon some act done, or was
calculated to effect some direct object. He did not think
the motion was brought for ward in a bone fide spirit, and
that it was calculated to tend to the impression that
great reductions could be made in the salaries of public
officers without retrenching those which were not suffi-
ciently paid. It was because he could not continue that
delusion that he voted as he intended to do. What he
said vas, let every inquiry be made by those authorities
entitled to do so. W hen, therefore, he voted for the
previous question, he did not mean to convey that the
present was not a proper time to consider what reduction
might be male in every department of the public service.
The Hon. Gentleman, in alluding to a speech of his
in 1845, did not correctly state the substance of what
had been quitted as his observations. He (Sir H. Peel)
had not laid down the position that unless the great naval
aid military establishments were reduced, no diminution
could take place ill the public expenditure. He had
said that there was a general impression, that on the
whole t f the expenditure there could be a reduction.
—(Hear, hear.) That expenditure had amounted to
48 000,0001.; but it was a great delusion on the,part
of the public to suppose that a reduction could
take place to the extent that bad beea mentioned.
He had stated that the necessary expenditure amounted
to 35,000,000/e and that the utmost that could be dealt
with was 13,000 0001. He had not implied that any re-
duction could be made in the civil establishments. He

, had said that he thought it would be art e:roaeous ex.
pectation on the pert of the aublic if they were ied to
suppose that any ;:;teat r<lic f could be aff..rd.A from to
reduehon of: the salaries in crtestion. With respect to
the chanqes ma is in the excise duties, t.e dot es on
glasF, aai the auction had been said t'tat the
expectstons he had tue2;ested had not been fulfilled.
lie•hegged to say he thought that his anticipations in
these matters had been to a great extent borne out, for.
the abolition of the glass duties and auction duties had
enabled them to eff7et a considerable saving in their
establishments. By a return made in 1346 it would be
found that every anticipation which he had entertained
had been fulfilled. HI- had stated that he thought the
reduction of those duties would afford a great oppor-
tunity of diminishing the establishments which they
were then obliged to keep up. And what was the result?
Why, no less than 450 persons had been discontinued
in the particular departments alluded to, and a
saving of no less than 51,0001., had been effected
for the country. That did not show that the expecta-
tions which he haul held out were not fulfilled. That
the Government desired to maintain those offices eluded
to for the purpose of patronage he thought was es en-
tirely uhf iundel as it eves unjust to accuse them of keep-
ing up the army aid navy in order to lied pl set, for the
younger breaches of tho nobility. So far from wishing
to increase the expea ei of the Treasury dep trtment, hs
thought every Chancellor of the Exchequer would be
most anxious to make as ma'ty reductions as he colitis
Having heard of the arnouut of the relitf voluntarily
made by the Government, and having had proof of their
desire to carry out all fair retrenchments, he did not de-
sire to imply the sort of reflection upon them which
taut motion would be likely to cast. He thought the
Government had given proefs of their desire to reduce
every expense which might be reduced. The present
motion had no reference to the salaries of great offices.
fie could confirm from long personal experience all
that had been said in justification and approbation of the
conduct of those who filled the offices of Government
in the public department of the State. He would
ask the House to look to the changes which took
place with respect to those public departments. Suppose
a new Government came into power, how much must
they not depend, for a certain time, on the knowledge
and experience of those who filled responsible situations
in public offices?—(Hear, hear.) Let them take the
case, for instance, of the late Mr. Brookbanks.—(Hear.)
Did not every Chancellor of the Exchequer who bad
ever come into office know how much he ought to rely
on the experience and knowledge of a gentleman like
that?—(Hear.) Let them go through all the public
offices—it would be found .to be the same. An Hon.
Gentleman had said that the rule now, of all the public
offices was increased work and diminished pay. And
certainly if the number of- papers 'now passing through
the Treasury were compared with that of, twenty years
since, it would be admitted that the duties there bad
more than doubled. It had been said -that the officials
there did not work enough—that they did nothing
at night ; and several allegations of that kind
had been made. He would rt,k the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the ser-
vices of the gentlemen in the public departments
with which he was conversant were not always
available at all hours, and whether they had not always
cheerfully given their assistance whenever called upon
by their superiors.—(Hear, hear.) What was the posi-
tion in that public department? A young man was
placed there for two or three years on a small salary,
not calculated to meet his expenses, and after some years
of service he received an allowance of 2001. per annum.
Now it was not the amount of labour which was to be
considered so much as the amount of trust reposed in
those parties.—(Hear, hear.) The Secretaries of State
could not discharge their duties without entrusting most
important state secrets to many individuals not in the pos-
session of more than 5004 a year.—(Hear.) It was
not, then, the quantity of labour that was to be borne in
remembrance so much as the great extent of honourable
confidence reposed in such men—(Hear, hear)—and
he thought it would be most injurious to the
public interests of the country to undervalue or
underrate the services of those who, if they
had not the fortunes had at least the feelings of
gentlemen. For his part, be had great pleasure in bear-
ing his testimony to the efficiency and fidelity of those
who filled the subordinate offices of our public service.
—(Hear.) They were worthy of great trust. He had
heard in other countries of means existing for acquiring
a knowledge of important secrets and documents; but
he had never known an instance in this country of any
such imputation on the honour of a public man even in
the humblest station.—(Hear, hear.) When he had the
honour of filling the office of First Lord of the Tree
sury, he had been allowed 3001. a year each for the sa
-
lades of two private secretaries. Of course he was
obliged to take those gentlemen from the Treasury and
he could say that if they had 10,000/. a year they could
not perform their duties with more zeal, fidelity, and
efficiency than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) Now if
the present motion meant anything, it meant that there
ought to be a revision of the salaries of such men as
these; and he felt bound to oppose it, because he
thought it would inflict a wound on men to whom the
public were under great obligations. He admitted that
in foraging new establishments it was a fair con-
sideration to be taken into account that the prices of
provisions were lower now than they had been formerly;
but in considering the case of those who had spent some
20 years or more in the public service, he did not think
that was a matter which ought to be taken into account
just now. A Committee had already been appointed
for inquiring into the salaries of the higher class of pub-
lic officer=, with a view to ascertain whether or not it
was advisable that those salaries should be reduced.
Now he should state his opinion upon that subject with-
out any hesitation. His opinion was, that those who
filled the highest offices of the state in this country did
not receive an amount of remuneration in the slightest
degree greater than that—he would not s ay to which they
were entitled—but than that which the public interest
required should be scached to the situations which they
held. While he enter t Lined that opinion, he also believed
that those who fille 1 subordinate offices iu the state were
at least equ ally entith d to consideration and protection;
and with that conviction he should vote for the motion
welch implied that the sense of the House ought not to
be taken on the proposal of the lion. Member for Ox-
fordshite.—(Eiettr, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN said that the only argument he had
heard advanced in favour of the motion then under their
consideration was, that the salaries of public officers
should be reduced in proportion to the reduction which
had of late years taken place in the price of commodities
of every description. Now, if he were to admit the va-
lidity of that argument, he should be a party to a ,ge-
neral reduction of wages in this country—(Hear, hear)
—for that would naturally be regarded as a war on
wby a sweeping vote of that House—first, because be
thoughtages
ewoobujiedctbed be impracticable,
arty proposed reduction of wages
it
p
racticable, and next, because he
believed that no ground had been shown for such a re-
duction. It had been stated by the Hon. Member f
Oxfordshire, that since the years 1828 and 1829 there
had been a general reduction in the prices of articles of
consumption in this country. The lion. Gentleman had
calculated that reduction tat from 23 to 25 per cent.; and
he had argued that there ought to be a proportionate
reduction in the amount of wages. But he (Mr. Cob-
den) did not see that that consequence necessarily fol-
lowed from those premises. There might have been a
reduction in the price of commodities in consequence
of improvements in the mode. of producing them;
ironmongery might be cheaper in consequence of the
discovery of the hot- blast, and corn might be cheaper
in consequence of the employment of guano acid the
adoption of a system of efficient drainage.—(Cries of
a Haar, hear," and oh.")
But it the cheapness
was owing to discoveries in science, why, he should ask,
ought not the working classes as well as all other mem-
bers of the community to be benefited by their introduc-
tion? Hon. Gentlemen opposite spoke as it all classes
in the country had of late years suffered reductions in
their incomes. But he denied that that had been the
case. Ile denied that rents had been reduced.—(Hear,
hear.) Us denied that as a general rule there had of late
years been a reduction of rents in England. In the north
of England he [eight say there had been no such reduc-
tion, and he did not, anticipate a reduction. But so far
was it from. being true, that a reduction of prices-neces-
sarily led to a reduction of wages, that .he main-
tained the tendency was the very reverse. The re-
duction of price led to uu increased demand, and
the increased demand produced a tendency to an
advance of wages. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed
to be ignorant of the fact that there had of late
bears exis
• ted a general tendency to an advance of wages
in this country. But he could say, without fear of con-
tradiction, that during the recent diminution of the prices
of commodities, there had existed a, tendency to an in-
crease of wages among the very persons by whom the
commodities had been produced. Among the operathes
in Leicester and in Nottingham, there had of late been,a
succession of strikes, and an increase of wages unknown 1,
for fitly years before.—(Hear, hear.) How, then, could
Hon. Gentlemen opposite come forward and say that the
country was in such a state of distress that the wages of
persons employed by the Goverment should be reduced?
They might as well tell him that the wages of the agri-
cultural labourers had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, he could say that for the last fifty years agricultu-
ral labourers had been placed in a diff:rent position from
any other class of labourers in this country. They bed,
during the whole of that period, been reduced to such a
state that their wages only enabled them to obtain a
scanty subsistence for themselves and their families.
That he called the slavery state of wages, lie did not
blame Hon. Gentlemen opposite for that—it had been a
general rule in this country during the last fifty years.
When the price of food rose, the wages of the agricul-
tural labourers were raised in proportion; and when the
price of food fell, the wages of those labourers were re-
duced in proportion; so that they were never able to
purchase more than a certain limited quantity of food.
But even in the agricultural districts he maintained that,
notwithstanding some parisl reduction of money wages,
the labourers and their families had been, on the whole,
better fed since food had been at a moderate price .than
in the year 1847—the boasted year of agricultural pros-
perity.—(Hear, hear.) lie said that the reduced price
of commodities afforded no reason whatever why the
House should pass a sweeping resolution calling on the
Government to enter on a general reduction of the
wages of labour. Let them look to the position of
clerks in governmeat offices. Were Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite aware of the number of those clerks who re-
c ived salaties less in amount than the wages paid to many
skilled artisans ?—(Hear, hear.) Ile fund from a
pamphlet put forward by the civil employe, themselves
on a different question from that then under the consi-
deration of the House, that among upwards of 13,000
Government clerks, upwards of 8,000 were receiving
under 1001. a year.— (Hear, hear.) Did Hon. Gentle-
men opposite propose that the salaries of those clerks
should be reduced?--(Hear, hear.) He agreed with
those who thought that among a large proportion of the
civil servants of the Government the salaries were not
excessively high. He also thought that they would have
a better chance of reducing their expenditure by dimi-
nishing the number of the public servants than b..

taileig the salaries of those servants. What be objected
to in the motion of the Hon. Number was, that the me-
tiers did not allude to the possibility of reducing the
number of the public servants, but dwelt only on the
reduetioa of their to ti arie9. The lion. Gentleman and
his party had supported the motion in a way which al-
most led him (Me. Cobden) tp infer that there was a
concealed stingein the resolution, and that it was meant
as a retaliation f in the price of .CAlrtilia C3!.11.•
UlOditieS.—(Elear.) lie had heard with much satisfac-
tion the speech made that evening by his Hm. Friend
the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume); and it certainly
appeared to him that everything in that speech had gone
against the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire.
His Hon. Friead had said that the wages and the sala-
ries of persons employed in the public offiees wore not in
general excessive, while ho added that those persona
might be reduced in number. But the lion. Member for
Oxfordshire had lost sight of all that, and had only pro-
posed a sws °ping reduction of salaries. The Hon. Mem-
ber and a 'other lion. Gentleman who followed him
stewed to have gone out of their way for the purpose of
at a -king him for having stated that the best mod,' o'
reducing the national expenditure would be by effectinx
a reluction in our armaments. The Hon. Gentle/nat.
;epeesred t o think that he (Mr. Cobden) heal said that no
reduction could be made except in our armaments. But
what he ha f said in 1848, and what he then repealed,
was, that no material reduction could be made in
our expenditure—no reduction such as would be
felt at the fireside of every family in the country
if that costly item, our military establishment, was
to remain untouched. What were the reductions
which had been effected since he had made that
stet -went? Why, he had found that in the year
1848 49 the expenses of our military establishments,
including the expense of the Kafir war, had amounted
to 18,700,0001., while the whole of the estimates
of the present year, for the army, the navy,
and the ordnance, amounted to only 14,300,0001. That
fact, he thought, afforded a strong justification of the
statement he had made in the year 1848. Ho believed
that a considerable reduction in the national expenditure
might be effected by a change in our system of pensions
end superannuation allowances. He did not see why
there should be a superannuation allowance for any civil
servant. The case of such a person was totally
different from that of a man who had had his limbs
shattered in the military service. He did not see why
any civil servant who, during 30 or 40 years, had been
in the receipt of a good salary, should have a claim on
the country for a pension during the remainder of his
life. Reference had been made to the Select Committee
which had been appointed the other day to inquire into
.the salaries of the higher class of public officials. He had
voted for that Committee, althought it had been opposed
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. His Hon.
Friend said he did not see any use in a Committee. But
he (Mr. Cobden) could not agree with him upon that
point. The Committee of the import duties, for which
his Hon. Friend himself had moved, had done more than
any other to carry free trade. And, again, he believed
that the. Committee on the African squadron would ulti-
mately lead to the removal of the African blockade. The
report of a Committee might not by itself beiproductive
of any important result; but the evidence brought before
a Committee often influenced public opinion to a very
material extent. He felt great regret in differing upon
that occasion from his lion. Friend the Member for
Montrose, whose labours in the cause of economy no one
could doubt or mistrust. But it appeared to him (Mr.
Cobden) that upon that question his Hon. Friend had
made a speech upon one side, whiie he was about to
vote upon the other. For his part he objected to are
duction of the salaries of the humbler class of Govern-
ment clerks; he objected to the reasons given for that
reduction; he did not wish to see blame cast upon free
trade by making it the pretext for curtailing the emolu-
ments of useful public officials. He did not wish to
make it appear that this country was less able at present
than it had been before the adoption of free trade to pay
those who were engaged in its service; he did not wish
to see any class excluded from the benefits which free
trade was, in his belief, calculated to confer; and he
should then fore give his vote against the motion of the
Hon. Member for OxfOrdshire.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed his surprise
that so profound a political economist as the Honourable
Member for the West Riding should have referred to
the case of the agricultural labourer in the way he had
done. The Honourable Member ought to be aware that
the case of the agricultural labourer was a peculiar one,
is(inenaiemdmei
euv
rmi
td,
ouchabfel
eawrla.aatbeoawsuTrhbreheee
erlrotsehwri
ewehei
uc hr a iht
ew si
eimpossible
alsobecause the effect of the poor-law was to prescribe for
did
phtoai mi
dgeao
et. ino—t
wasattht been o awmaog uenst criterionof
appearedowf a wages
he
amount of wages which labourers, in general, earned.
In many parishes,
to be high, great numbers of persons were wholly
unemployed, and, consequently, the amount of
wages paid ought to be considered with reference
to the whole population of the district.—(Hear, hear.)
It really would be satisfactory if 'Ministers would
have the kindness to declare, once and for all, whether
the country bad gained or lost by their measures.
To-night the House had been informed that the coun-
try had not gained a farthing; whereas, at the begin-
ning of the session, it was asserted that our gain
amounted to not less than 90,000,000/.—(ltear, hear.)
Perhaps the question was an open one with the Minis-
try, and they had not yet arrived at any satisfactory con-
clusion with respect to it. His reason for thinking it
just and politic to reduce salaries rather than t i dimi-
nish the number of persons employed was this:—There
had taken place a general reduction of the prices of ar-
ticles of comumption—a reduction brought about not by
any partial cause, but the result of a system in which
Ministars and gentlemen opposite were now triumph-
ing.—(Hear, bear.) Man, like all animals, was grega-
rious, and tnere were only two ways of moving grega-
rious herds—you must attract them by the clover in
trent, or impel them by the goad behind. Now, he
was for a strong government; he cared not whether
it wore monarchical. constitutional, republican, or any-
thing else.—(Laughter.) Governments in this coun-
try bad bean strong in post years, by bribing the
boroughtnongera—by bribing the Lord Lonsdalos.— [A
Member immediatOy behind Mr. Drummond here uttered
an exclamation which Caused considerable laughter.]
It was unfortunate that the Honourable Member should
have interrupted him in the midst of a compound sub-
stantive.—(A laugh.) He was saying that former Ad-
ministrations found it necessary to bribe the borough
mongers, in order that they might be able to carry on the
government, and now Ministers must the bribe financial
reformers for the same purpose. The great lords and
the aristocracy, it seemed, had a monopoly of the army,
and did not want commissionersthips and smaller offices;
but the financial reformers did want them for their friends
and relatives—(Hear, and laughter)—and therefore
there would be plenty of speeches from those gentlemen
out of doors in favour of retrenchment and economy,
whilst, in that House, they would vote only in favour
of impracticable propositions, and when a practical pro-
positiotedike the present, happened to be brought for-
ward, they would be all found voting with Ministers
against it.—(Hear.)
Mr. WOOD said, that free trade had had the happy
effect of making, not only the Hon. Member ,for Ox-
fordshire, but the constituents whom he so able repre-
sented, economists; for a farmers' club established in
Oxfordshire for the avowed object of maintaining agri-
cultural protection had not long since dissolved itself,
the farmers declaring that the question of protection was
at end. The present motion was not so rough and rude
in its form as that proposed by the same Hon. Member
last year,'Which contemplated the reduction of all salaries
to the extent of 10 per cent. The Right Hen. Member
for Stamford made an excellent speech against the lion.
Member's motion last session, in the course of which he
showed that out of 23,000 persons employed in the civil
service of the Government, 20,000 had incomes under
TOOL a year. It was therefore evident that the reduc-
tion proposed lay the MM. Member would chiefly apply
to persons in receipt of very moderate incomes. Persons
in the civil service of the Government were very far from
being extravagantly paid. It came within his own
knowledge that gentlemen who had started from the
Universities with him and entered into Government
offices in preference to professions were now, atter
manryears service, in the receipt of only 2001. oe. 3004
a year. Leokinsat the ominous intioduction of. the
word " and arguments by which
it had been supported, the country would look upon its
adeption by the House as a declaration that wages must
be reduced in consequence of the adoption of free trade,
And, under these circumstances, be felt bound to vote
against the resolution.
Mr. DISRAELI—eThere was. one thing at least upon
which the House and the country were agreed, notwith-
standing some delicately-toned dissentient murmurs
which had been breathed that evening, namely, that the
pressure of taxation on the country was excessive.—
(Hear, hear.) . From all classes of the community, from
all parties in the State, from every part of the kingdom,
the declaration was heard that retrenchment was not only
desirable but necessary.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member
for the West Riding and his friends had t %ken a leading
part'in encouraging the cry for retrenchment. They
announced that a vast measure of reduction of the public
expenditure was absolutely necessary, and, to do the Hon.
Member fer the West Riding justice, it must be admitted
that hope sooner entered the House after the recess than
he proposed a resolution to which the epithet "sweep-
ing.' which it now appeared the Hon. Gentleman die-
liked, was felicitously applicable.—(Hear, and laughtele)
There could be no doubt, also, that amongst another.
class with which the Hon. Member for the West Riding
was not very closely connected, although be was psi.-
tially so—namely, the agricultural class, there existeda
sincere conviction that the
the public burdens to which They
were subjected were of a very grievous character.
question, then, naturally occurred—what was the cause
of this?—how did it happen that in 1849-50 a country
wtit he
ices
ees Pdwae 1,
vi
iht ai t °d:
21:13Uaardp
and (as was'alleged) so prospering, should be
genious grr
sinehstogtsl
whoseelyy increased,emeaetniurefealoatut
erdwe
,shwowhs eeerseceaspeoietimanl...,
,pervaded by a general feeling of uneasiness, and that all
classes In it should combine to tell the Legislature that
their burdens were not only grievous but intolerable?—
(Chedrs.) During several years the Legislature
had been engaged .in reducing that class of
taxation which pressed most sensibly on the
springs of industry. For many years past million after
million of taxes had been removed from the shoulders
that class with which the Hon. Member for the West
Riding was connected.—(Hoar, hear.) Nearly 9,000,0001.
of taxation had been remitted, the object of that remis-
sion being to make the burden of imposts more easily
borne by the favoured class, and when all that had been
done the Hon. Member for the West Riding and his
friends came to Parliament and said, " Only repeal the
corn-laws and we will beat the world." Well, the corn-
laws wererepealed, but the world was not yet vanquished.
—(Cheers.) This being the state of affairs, the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, and his friends, who, out
of doors were proud of being thought the leaders of what
they called a new movement for the reduction of ex-
penditure and taxation, had conducted themselves in the
dHouse that evening as if they were so many Chancellors

of the Exchequer, and as if it was their business to paint
in rosy hues the prospering fortunes of a flourishing
community.—(Cheers and laughter.) In the meantime
whilst the lion. Members and his friends tv,T re claiming
credit for getting up a now agitation, a change had come
over the fortunes of the classes with which they who sat
on that (the Opysition) side of the Howe were con-
nefted. They found that in consequence of their di-
minished means they were u",n4l2le_ to. poet
_lho charges
which the Legislature had imposed on them, and Viev
naturally sought relief in a.legitimate way. Thu reduc-
tion of expenditure, as leading to a reduction of taxation,
was the means of relief which first suggested itself'. In
accordance with that sentiment, they (the Opposition)
had proposed and supported various propositions. They
(the Protectionists) had been subjected to imputations
from lion. Gentlemen, some of whom we:e so distin-
guished as to occupy seats on the Treasury beach. He
did not refer, of course, t ► those unfounded statements
which, in an excited to quoque, were excusable at a late''
hour of the night in a nebate. But.when the Noble
Lord, because they had given votes' the objeJt and eflczt
of which were to remove burdens from the community,

barged them with the intenti )ti of breaking faidi with
the public creditor and destroying the finance% of the
country, he made an imputation which was little melee
eised by facts, and had supported it by an allegation
which was purely imaginary—viz , that he and the g. n
denim) who usually acted with him had voted tor the
repeal of the window tax. Now he maintained that th, y
on that side of the House had given no votes for the re-
mission of taxation . which hero not authors d by
the state of the public flounces; neither had they riven
any without a due consideration of the claims .f tee
public creditor. But he admitted that their votes
oad also been guided by a duo consideration to the
claims of theirsuffering constituents. The Tory party were
now charged by the Hon. and Learned Gentlereaa the
Member for Sheffield with "new-born zeal fur econe-
nay ." The advocacy of economy had ken considered
by that Hun. and Learned Gentleman as something fo-
reign to the nature of their great political connexion.
He (Mr. Disraeli) would like to know what great finan-
cial reductions had been made in this country in modern
times except by the Tory party.—(Cheers.) He did
not refer to times far remote, but if Hon. Gentlemen
would run their eye over the history of this country
from the period atter the independence of the United
States up to the passing of the Reform Bill, they would
find that every great measure of public economy and
• financial reform had been effected by the Tory party.—
(Ironical cheers.) Why, what did they do when they
passed the Reform Bill? They destroyed that Govern-
ment which they were now obliged to bring forward at
the model Government of political frugality.—(Hear,
hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member
for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburu), who
I was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, might look back
upon his career as one which was not at all common in
our timas—a career in the course of which he had twice
effected a great reduction in the interest paid for the
national debt. Yet the House had just been told of
" the new-born zeal" of the Tory party.—(Hear, hear.)
The gentlemen who passed, or who were the creatures
of the Reform Bill, had produced a Parliamentary Go-
vernment which the Hon. Member for Montrose knew,
with a heavy heart, had produced the greatest financial
disasters to the country; and the Hon.-Gentleman, no
doubt, looked back with satisfaction to the time when
he found more economy in an unreformed Parliament•
than had ever been effected by a reformed Parliament.
Those gentlemen who had received their education in
reform and financial associations, and who did not
condescend to look into. the history of their country
beyond a few years back, now , came forward and an-
nounced that they could not support a motion which had
public economy for its object, because it had originated
in the new-born zeal'of the Tory party I What was the
motion of his Hon.• Friend? It was a motion
in perfect accordance with many Parliamentary
precedents —in perfect accordance with many mo-
tions which had been made by Members of
the Tory party within the last fifty years. It
was much more than that: it was a motion in perfect ac-
cordance with the exigencies of the times.—( Hear, hear.)
That motion, however, had encountered the aeticipated
opposition of many eminent individuals. It had been
opposed,. of course, by the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at the beginning ( f
the' session—only a few weeks ago—announced that
prices had fallen below the mark which he had antici-
pated, and who had the honourable courage to confess
that he trusted a rise would soon take place, but who had
that night vindicated his opposition to the motion by his
researches into the books of the Marylebone Vestry,
which proved that prices had zisen. That was the most
important part of the statistical information of the Right
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the oppo-
sition of a still more important party—that of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member fur l'arnworth; and cer-
tainly, as far as his observations went, they were
quite unanswerable, because the theatre on which the
!Light Honourable Gentleman had played was of a li-
mited, although of a classical character—it tt as con-
fined to Downing-street. One would have supposed
from the observations of the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, that the subject of the motion of the Hon.
Member for Oxfordshire was to curtail the salaries of
those mysterious and rare individuals who were virtually
the Government of the country. The Right Hon. Gee-
tleman had referred to the late Mr. Brooksba'ik, as if
they were about to invade the innermost sanctuary of
Downing-street, and to deprive gentlemen who dis-
charged responsible and important duties, and were en-
trusted with most important secrets, of the rewards which
they had so dearly won. The Right Hun. Gentleman
had argut.d the whole case as if they were merely deal-
ing with some 100,0001. or 200,0001. a yeer. Was that
the case? On the contrary, had not the Hue. Member
fir Oxtordehire, in his ingenious and thoroughly trust-
worthy argument, shown that they would have to deal
with an amount of not less than 7,500,0001.? Now, did
the observations of the Right lion. Gentleman apply to
that theme?—(llear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman
had drawn a most interesting picture of himself, over-
whelmed with the cares of Et,ite, and auppuriel (.:11 each
side by a pr.vate stcrctary—:he one with 3001. a year,
and the oilier with 1501. Now, what would have nie
said if L ird Hardinge, after one of his great victories,
had written home a dispatch, in which he atatad that in
the thick of the fight he had been supported by two
aides-de-camp, the one an ensign and the other alien-
tenant—that they were men in whom he had greatly
trusted, and to the faithful fulfilment of whose arduous
duties he was much indebted, that they had almost sa-
crificed, and hat certainly hazarded their lives in that
great victory, but that he had a most paintul feeling
when he remembered that one of them had only 300/.
and the other only 1501. a year?—(Cries of " Oh, oh !"
and " Hear, hear.") He maiatained that the cases were
quite parallel. But he would ask, did a young man who
desired the post of privets.° secretary to a Minister of
State look to the immediate wages be received ? No:
he looked to the immediate reward of the confidence of
his chief, and to the future rewards which were open to
him. That, therefore, was an amiable bat ad captandum
answer,which had nothing whntever.te do with the motion
before the House. After the Right Hon. Gentleman
followed the Hon. Member for the West Ridtug. The
Noble Lord the other night seemed a little angry with
him and soma of his friends for having gone into the
same lobby with the Hots. Member for the West Riding
and his friends. lie seemed to think there was sonic-
thine very dangerous in being connected with
such' allies. The Noble Lord during his varied career
had had great experience; and ono would have supposed
he would have been the last person to find fault with
such " compact alliances."—(llear, hear.) But the
Noble Lord need have no serious fears on the subject.
Those votes had already effected a salutary purpose.
The House had that night had a frank avowal from the
great leader of the Financial Reform Association that a
proposition of " a sweeping nature"—never mind his
reasons—should not receive his support.—(Hear. hear,
and laughter.) That was something which the Protec-
tionists nad effected, and as there would necessarily be
great anxiety felt by her. Majesty's Ministers to advent et
public business, it would be gratifying to them to find that
there was now not the shghtest fear that the " sweeping
motions" which used to occupy the notice book, turd pro-
crastinate the termination of the session—such as the
motions for the repeal of taxes, the exteation of the fran-
chise, and the like—would be ever again brought forward
by HOD. Gentlemen opposite because they (the Protec-
tionists) had established this great political truth, that
when a liberal motion was proposed it bed occa-
sionally the chance of being carried. (Cheers,
and , groat laughter.) They were .nowreaping
returns
the rapid results of their tactics, and financial
had that night received a fatal blow. future,ln
zeal" of .
sincere
financial reformers must trust to
_ar
"the
new-burn
that party who for the laste ((3,.
sevHeyy,tra had been la-
hear.) The pro- .
bouring to effect that bet
position of his Hon. Friend, then, was to ask the House
to consider whether they could not effect a retrench-
mene with regard to some 7,500,0001. Who doubted
that they could ? But the Government said, " Leave it
to us ; wo will,do it." But the Protectionists had of-
fered to leave it to them, and instead of accepting the
offer the Government had appointed et a Committee.—
(Hear, hear.) He observed that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer cheered. The Right Hon. Gentleman was,
no doubt, glad to get rid of the question by transferring
the responsibility of Ministers to a Committee.
flip Chancellor of the Exchequer denied having
cheered.] The Right Hon. Gentleman's voice was too
agreeable to him, it was impossible to mistake it.—
(Laughter.) He assured Honourable Gentlemen
who ' had an abstract admiration of retrench-
ment, but who were afraid to vote for it, • that it was
as disagreeable to him as to theni 'to cut down sala-
ries ; but had not society arrived at such a state in
England that they were forced to take that step? That
was the question, and that night they would be made to
answer et.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been m'ide to
the dreadful position of a clerk with 1001. a year having
10 or 20 per cent. taken from him; but was his position
worse than that of the labourer?—(liesr, hear.) The
Hon. Member for the West Riding said ho would not
vote fur the motion, although 'he admitted its abstract
justice,' because it would be a condemnation 'of the new
system. He would tell the lion. Gentleman that this was
not a condemnation of the new system; but it was one
of the consequences of it. Its condemnation would
come in due season.—(Cheers.) But one of the restate
of the new system was, that they were all obliged, in
consequence of the increased burdens of the people,
to
examine the public expenditure of the country. Now,
here was 7,500,0001. to begin with. .
not want
fledi !Ydanted this
fairly to be understood out of doors. l
them to run away with the sentimentality of the. Right
and sup-
Hon. Gentlemen, the Member for Taairren Lb,
yerrsym
fllwanldarind--
pose that they were dealing with a se
significant sum distributed among.
ing.
He estimated
working men. They were no suclhdth
rohably lead to a
that the motion, if carried, wou
saving of 1,000,0001. per annum, and pernaps more, and
those who would form a judgment upon their conduct
that night with regard to that important question were
hard-working men, who were
suffering hardly. The
House must not be •
permitted to ride off from the eonia•
QUttlall of their vote upon the sentimental desorkition of

the position of the chief clerks and virtual Ministers o
State in Dawning-street, nor up an the statement of the
Hon. Member for the We.t th4t he wculd not
vote for the motion because it would affect the wages of
the country. Wag-s we:o &ready affectel, arid they
bsiieved that there was no part of the eionmunity who
would not in that respect be affected. Hon. Members
might try to avoid the consequences of the motion, and
to evade the responsibility w hich hung over their heads,
but they could not evade it: No 'man in that House
could evade it, and least of all those clamorous
patriots who founded institutions and societies
tor financial reform, who entered that House and pro-
posed, in unison with those institutions, impracticable
propositions, and the moment they were brought to a
point at which they must decide upon a definite sum,
levied for a particular object, fled from the test. Neither
the plea that the Government was in danger, and that
wages would be affected, nor any other shadowy eubter-
fege that might suit their purpose that night, would pre-
vent them being condemned by the general v; ice of the
country.—(Cheers.) He slid not know, aid he did not
care what might he the causes of the univer:;ally
knowledged distress which many Gentlemen had ri furred
to. lie had his own opinion on the stkiict. Lk. 'hit
Honourable Member fi,r Oxf,rdsliire, he did no; su;
piee that it proeeetlei from one particular at's.. Ito
had no doubt that an evil so complicate,', so gentr~l,
aas occasioned by many ceusee; but he thouzbuthat it
might be trac,d to one redominant cause, the coils'
quences of which were injurious, and which would be
ultimately more than injurioni.—(flear.) But, what he
wanted to call the at:eution t f the House arid the coun-
try to was this, that the is suit was no longer ques.
tioned. At firs', when they talked of dist' oss, they
were told there was no distress, and that tt e county
was prosperous. They were now told that it was true
[hat there was very great distress, but that it was not
occasioned by any legislative measure, but by railroads.
Well, he asked, who was responsible for railroads?—
(Rear.) Why, those great men who ought to be the
guides of the House, their tutors in political instruction,
and the guardians of the public conduct. Did they not
stimulate railroads in that House?—(Cheers.) Did they
not take the violent step of making the attendance on
Railway Committees compulsory, in order that no time
might be lost in forming competitive lines? Were not the
young men of England admonished not to lose their time
in making speeches, but to devote their time to Railway
Committees? Was not that the advi.:e of great statesmen?
Well, what was the conduct of the grt at middle class, who
ought to be the governors and guides cf the country?
It used to be said that the time was come when England
was to be governed by a few great towns, but that
was when shares were at a premium of 150 per cent. It
was then that it was said there should be no House of
Lords, and the House of Commons must be reconstructed.
What had been the result of the superior energy, enter-
prise, and sagacity of the great middle class, especially
in the great towns of the north of England? Why, it
appeared that more than 100,000,000/. bad not only been
lost in railroad speculations, but lost, it appeared, by
not keeping accounts. And these were the' men who
had been all over England denouncing the farmers, be-
cause they cultivated land without keeping accounts.—
(Laughter.) Well, what was the predominant cause of
that distress, to provide a remedy tor which he intended
to support the motion of his Honourable Friend to-
night? He thought it was mainly occasioned by that
legislation of 1846 which affected the interchange of
the most important comwod.ties between different
countries. —(Hear, hear.) He had, always been
of that opinion, and be had always expressed that
opinion. The Noble Lord had said to the Tory
Tarty, " If such are your opinions, why don't you bring

forward the question ? " Gentlemen on his side of the
House were quite aware of their deficiences ; they were
often reminded of them by the eminete, honourable, he
might almost say illustrious persons about them ; they
could not attempt to rival others in eloqueuce and poli-
tical sagacity and forethought, but at all events they
were not weak enough to allow their cimpaigu to to
chalked out for them by their opponents.--(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) However, he would tell the Noble Lord
very candidly why they did not bring forward the ques-
tion. They did not think it was a question to be
settled in the House of Commons.--(Hear, hear.)
They thought, that whatever the decision of the House
upon it might be, it could not be satisfactory to the
country. It scented incidental to human nature
that wisdom was (rely to be acquired by adversity ;
and when the country had arrived at that pitch of suf-
fering which should teach it the great lesson, he
had no doubt the country would settle the question
for itself, without troubling him or the Nobie Lord at
all in the matter.—(Hear, h( ar.) Sure he was that no
other settlement of it would be permanently satisfactory
to the conetry.—(Hear, hear.) Whichever way the
Howe might vote, the people out of doors would be dis-
satisfied. Even supposing a substantive motion for the
retracing of their steps in commercial legislation were,
as desired by the Noble Lord, proposed to an assembly
' pledged the other way, and even supposing it tarried, its
proposers would not achieve a result which, es prudent
men, they should desire to accomplish; because it was
by slow degrees, by the salutary experience of suffer-
ing, that the various classes of the community must
arrive at that charge which assui oily they would b)-
and-bye arrive at.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat down
he would make one observation which he thought the
Noble Lord would du well to reflect upon bi fore he
again talked of ideas ef this kind coming under the
head of a wildgoose chase. It seemed to be the convic-

tion of the Noble Lord and his frisnde that the notion
of a recurrence to the commercial system that had bt en
abrogated was perfectly insensate, eqecially so in a
caueoy where oe,ocenttic sympa.t.i(s so greatly pre-
vailed as, eery fortunately, they did -II i this country.
kie would remind the Noble Lo: d th.:3 there was a na-
tion, a nation not svcand in power ev,u to our own greet
and pilverful tcion, where the reaction so ridiculed had
actually taken place; that nation, moreover, being one
in which the democratic influence whs immensely more
powcrtul even than it was in England; he Sii ke of it :e
United States t f America.—(ileur, hear.) Before the
NutAes Lord again told tlem that a recurrence to the com-
as, rcial code under which this country su long and so
greatly prospered was a wild phantisma,• to be rejected
by tvcry sane man, let him reflect that the phantasms
was accepted in America.—(llear, hear.) In a House
where there was such frequent eulogy of American in-
stitutions, and American conduct, and American in'el•
tact, he might fairly expect that the admirers of Ameri-
can politics would in time also become admirers of Amer
ricau economies.—(Hear, hear.) Ile fur one was not
desirous that the great and inesitable reconstruction of
our commercial system on principles favourable to native
industry—not to the cosmopolitan interests, Ho elo-
quently and so sincerely advocated by the Gallant
Colonel—should take place in any other way than in
the United States, as the consequence, merely, of sharp
experience, and under the influence of popular senti7
went.—(Chi CrB.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that at that hour of the
night he would endeavour to confine himself closely to
the motion before the House. The Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire proposed an address to her Majesty for a
revision of all the salaries in every department of the
public service, with a view to reduction. His first objec-
tion to the motion was that it was unjust.--(Hear, hear.)
When he moved for a Committee in a f firmer session, he
stated that the Government had made a revision of the
department of Stamps and Taxes, and that many re-
ductions had been made in that department; to the
amount of 250,000 L; he stated the number of persons
who had been reduced in that department; and he stated
likewise that with respect to offices belonging to the exe-
cutive Government a careful revision had been already
made in several of them; that in the Home-office and in
the Treasury very considerable le ductions had been made
in the number of persons employed, and that all the
other offices were to he subjected to similar reductions.
—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised, therefore, to hear the
Hon. Member for Montrose now making the statement
that the Government refused all revision.—(Hear, hear.)
He had, moreover, recently proposed a Committee to
consider the official salaried of persona holding as ate in
the two Houses, of judicial officers, and of the diplomatic
establishment; and he would distinctly say that in the
face of all the revision already effected, and of the revi-
sion going on, to propose an address to the Crown fir
revision, as though no revision had taken place, was titre
unjust imputation upon the Goverment, which had done
so much, and which had manifested its readiness to do
more..—(Hear, hear.) So far as to the nature of the mo-
tion of the Hun. Member for Oxfordshire, made, be it
I possible
s eeme
extent
teeri
et
sth aided h e t
etbr heard
determination
teso i
orsner
to
-f
remarked,pet%proceedtcdl
y t 0 from a
tt
the
after
uttthmheeo
st Governmentl
revision and of reduction.—(hear, hear.)
The only con-
elusion to be drawn from the lion. Gentleman's motion,
littler such circumstances, was that he had no con-
fidence iu' the proposals of the Government, and that
he conceived it to be the duty cf the Government to re-
sort to some other mode of revision.—(" Hear," from Ca
Sibthorp.) The Hon. and Gallant Member, with his
accustomed candour, accepted that interpretation. But
the motion contained something more than this. It
would be; in his opinion, an objectionable proposition
did it merely extend to the Government of the day,
but it further proposed to have an accurate revision of
the salaries and wages in every department of the pub-
lic service. Let him first advert to the salaries. This
proposal as to salaries must be taken in conjunction
,
with the motion which the Hon. Member for Uxtord
opu o.
shire made last year, in conjuction with
( b
)u
or
rtaioines Mem-
ber his
in ws
the
a
speech that evening, and in conjunetioe, too, with the
declaration just made by tee
for Buckinghamshire.
that there had been a great
TThe
e reduction declaration
re-
fore there should be a proportionable in the
salaries reduction
prices of the necessaries of life, and that the
salaries of public officers.—(lleac. hear.) He would say,
at once, that the reductions the Government had made
different
had gone on' an entirely principle.—(Hear,
hear.) What they had done was this;—Whenever they
found that more persons were employed than were wanted
for the public service, they had reduced the number by
supersanouations' and otherwise to the necessary point;
but to' snake reductions according to the current price of
necessaries of life would be, in hie opinion, unfair and
unjust to that great body of persons who were employed
in the public service.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Member fur Tamworth had said no more than what every
person having experience in the public service would say,
when he commended so highly the services of those gen-
tlemen who were permanently employed in the public
departments. As to the comparison set up by the lion.
Member for Buckinghamshire between those g( ntlemen
and a geteral's aide-de-camp it was altogether
futile, hear.) It was these gentlemen,
in the permanent service of the various departments,
who carried 011 the whole machinery of the government,
the chiefs of which were liable to change with every re-
volution of opinion in or out of the House. It was es-
sential to the public service to have men of such expe-
rience and practised ability permanently in the public •
departments; and he would venture to say that were the
present Government to go out of office In consequence
of any vote of the House or other circumstance, and
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were to succeed them, they
would. not be• in- difico a single- day before they