The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-02 00:00:00

they would do in Ireland. An 8/. franchise in Ireland
would be a larger sum than 15/., 201, or 301. paid
in this country. He feared not the charge
of inconsistency in going out in support of
the Noble Lord's proposition. He would vote
fir it in tho full expectation that the experience
of such a measure would teach that House that they
might hereafter go one step farther in the same direc-
tion. He was not in a hurry, for he believed that ;his
reform must be done by degrees. He trusted that the
Noble Lord would soon bring in that Reform Bill which
he shadowed forth last night.—(Heae, hear.) Ho did
not think that the Noble Lord would, for any long
period, delay such a measure, and he hoped that it.
would be accompanied with another Irish Reform Bill
which would go one step lower than tho present.—
(Laughter.) He (Mr. Roebuck) promised him, if he
were present on such an occasion, the Noble Lord should
have his hearty support.
Lord C. HAMILTON said it was a most remarkable
fact that nut of the numerous petitions presented from
Ireland only five of them prayed for en increase of the
electors. This fact was of itself sufficient to show that
the people were altogether indifferent to such a measure
as the present. They certainly asked for more repre-
sentatives, but the Government said they should not have
additional Members, hut they would give them more
electors. He thought that the way of exhibiting
their sympathy f.r tho Irish people was to give them
more Members. If they passed this measure he could
not Lee how they could consistently stop short from
voting them the increase of representatives asked for.
—(Hear, hear.) It could be shown that the proposition
of his Honourable and Learned Friend the Member
fn. the Dublin University would come much nearer to
the franchise indicated in the Reform Bill than the Mea-
sure before the House. It aas a proposition, too, which
he thought better adapted fur the present situation in
Ireland. They ought to be cautious how they disturbed
that calm which the Noble Lord described last night as
now existing in Ireland, by giving the people an ides
that they wcro to obtain great advantages from the pro-
posed franchise.—(Hear.) If they m sde the franchise
too easy of attainment, they would degrade it in the
eyes of the people. The real friends of the country
were those who placed themselves in opposition to the
measure now submitted to their consideration.—(Hear.)
Mr. T. M'CULLAGH said that the Noble Lord who
had just sat down had, in common with other Hon,
Gentlemen on the same side of the House, an odd way
of showing his sympathy with the Irish people. The
Noble Lord had aske I why there had not been petitions
presented in favour of this Bill. The answer he gave
him was, that the people of Ireland, finding on two se-
veral occasions in 1848 and 1849 the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite coaling do.vn and sffirming the principle of this
Bill, believed those Honourable Gentlemen were in ear-
nest, end naturally thought it unnecessary to petition
in favour of it.—(llea a lira-) In Utter, out of a
population of 3200,000 inhabitants, the consti-
tuency was less than 9.000. They wore asked t;-
night why hi. was selected mere than any other amount.
He did not know why. —Meer, heae.) But such a
franchise would nearly give them such a constituency es
on an average they had in Bleglatid. Tee English cor-ati-
tuencies in the counties had on an average 6,700 electors.
He c nee! veil that the proposed franchise for Ireland
would give 6,000 for ea ill county. This Bill was, after a'l,
but a performance of the promise made at the Vine of
the Reorm Bill—that Ireland should not he placed upon
the same footing as Engl sod. He might be asked what
that promise was in precise terms. Ho would appeal to
only one authority. On the second reading of that B
these words were used, " If it was just that. the principle
of the all carried fir Etigl Ind should be applied to Eng-
land, it was no less just that the same principle should
be applied t Ireland. If the R. form Bill only coeferred
on the people of England that which was their right.
how could the same right be denied to the I e Cplsplit of
Irelan? Could three rights be denied without danger?
—or, if long withheld, would it not constitute a fair
reason why the people should demand a repeal of the
union?" This was the language that was at that time
used by Lord Stanley. He believe I that the Noble Lord
was sincere when he used those words, and that he
really meant to give that power substantially to the
Irish people of choosing their own representatives. Was
it, he (Mr. M'Cullagh) asked, fair, just, reasonable, or
politic for them now to refute to give to the people of
Ireland, after a delay of so many years, the realisation
of those promises which were at the period alluded to
held forth ?—(Hear, heat.) If they believed in the re-
ality of religious liberty, was it not an argument to ex-
tend the liberty of the Irish people whess they saw how
they had used that liberty fur the last 20 years ? They
had !sow in Ireland 500,000 children receiving ite true-
fonby a grant from that House—the major portion be-
longing to the Catholic religion. If the House believed
in the efficacy of religious instruction, they must believe
that the Irish people were better fitted now for that
liberty which it was proposed to give them than before
such a means of education existed. He only asked the
House to give the counties in Ireland that franchise
which they possessed in 1829. Was it consistent, wise,
or just that they should now divide the House on the
question of whether the qualification for the franchise
should be 81. or 151. ? If they placed any value upon
the good feeling and the loyalty cf the Irish people,
he trusted that the Government would persist in
the vindication of their rights by pressing on this mut-
aure.—(alear, hear.)
Lord cAsTLEREAGFI said be considered the quali-
fication proposed in the amendment of his Hon. and
Learned Friend a great deal too high. Neither did he
approve of the proposition of the Noble Lord. If, how-
ever, he was compelled to vote for either, he should cer-
tainly support the mra,ure cf the Noble Lord; for when
they were called upon to give a new constitution to Ire-
land, ho thought that they had better be found on the
liberal side.—(Hear, hear.) Ho, however, concealed
that he had much doubt as to the propriety of selecting
the present time for this experiment. He should prefer
a 10/. franchise. Ho most sincerely wished by this
measure that they could either teed the people or restore
tranquillity and contentment in Ireland. As, however,
it was impossible for them to do all that they wished,
they ought to do all they could.—(Hear, hear.) ll° had
no doubt that if they did their duty towards Ireland,
they would have no reason to repent by the conduct of
the people themselves.
Sir W. 'VERNER was understood to say in reply to
an observation made by the Hon. Member for Sheffield,
that at the time that there were 40s. freeholders in Ire-
land, the uefertunate freeholders were driven in flocks,
like sheep, to the hustings, by the priests; and then, too,
the priest was to be seen with a double-thonged whip in
his hand forcing on the voters to the poll. An Hon.
Member, too, had remarked that the landlords would
not give leases.
Mr. MONSELL explained that what he had stated
was that the people did not register because they had not
leases; and the reason they had not leases was because
the landlords did not wish them to register.
Sir W. 'VERNER continued by saying that he had
property in Armagh, Tyrone, and Monaghan, and he
was most anxious to make freeholders in all these cram-
ties—(Hear, and laughter)—but the respectable Roman
Cathol:c farmers requested of him not to give them
leases, because if ho did they must vote as the priest di-
rected them.—(Hear, hear.) He adeed on this cccasion
the same justice to be done to them which would be done
to England and Scotland. A highly-respectable Mem-
ber, who he had no doubt was in the House—(Cries of
" Name")—the Hon. Member for Berwickshire, had told
the House that it was an unprecedented thing to bring
firward and attempt to pass any measure through that
House connected with Scotland in the same way that the
Noble Lord had endeavoured to force on that Bill
in the absence of the Irish Members. The
Honourable Member had twice told the Noble Lord that
ho dared not do it. They had then this, an Irish
Bill, before the House, at the same time that the
acsizes__ were going on in Ireland, and tha

•
many Members were 'absent in the performance of very
important duties. Th• Noble Lord did not aTord t ) the
people of Ireland the opportunity of consulting their re-
prestntatives with respect to this measure. It was be-
cause the Noble Lord could not do this that they felt
compelled to take the part they had done in opposing its
progress ; and the Irish felt grateful to the Scotch and
English Members for the manner in which they had
supported them on that occasion. lie hoped then that
their party, though small, would stick together, and
teach the Government not to take those liberties with
them.

Lord J. MANNERS observed that the lion. Member
for Dundalk, apparently in want of an opponent, had
sought to fiz an accusation on his Hou. Friend the Mem-
ber for Northampton, which the Hon. Member (Mr.
M'Cullagh) would, upon reflection, he hoped, be disposed
to withdraw. He had fixed upon the expression of
"sham representatives of a rotten constituency ;" when
these words were intended as an interpretation of the
language which Hon. Gentlemen opposite gavo to them-
selves.—(Fiear' hear.) It wa said that they ought to
give to Ireland a constituency like to that of England.
That, he said, was what they (the Opposition) wanted
to do.—(Hear, hear.) The tone and temper of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield, who had referred to the Hon.
Member for Northampton, showed how deeply wore felt
the observations of his Hon. Friend.—(Hear.) The
lion. Member for Sheffield had contrasted the expres-
sions of sympathy and generosity, as compared with the
conduct of the Opposition on this occasion. This was a
charge which, he said, eat light upon him; for whea
English Radicalism could not coin, at a time of the most
_ .

severe pressure of distress in Ireland, words harsh and
bitter and severe enough to describe the Irish character,
it never was alluded to by any one on that (the Opposi-
tion) side of the House but in terms oe respect, and there
was no act of theirs but ono of liberality and kindness.—
(Hear.) If it wore true that on the memory of Irish
Members these facts made a light impression, it
was not so with others; for they were more deeply
and strongly impressed upon the memory of the
Irish people.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that there
was au advantage in discussing this Bill after the debate
of last night. They derived, too, great benefit from
having the philosophical principles laid down by a
Noble Lord as to the manner of granting the franchise,
and upon which they ought to proceed'. He did not
thei, he thought, travel out of the record if he tested
this Bill by the principles which had been laid down.—
(Hear.) lie understood the Noble Lord to have laA
down this principle—tlat any reform they granted
should be as a supplement to the Reform Bill, ald not a
reversal ofit. It would be easy to show that theamendmont
of the Hon. Member for tha University of Dublin was in
strict accordance with tho speech of the Noble Lord on
the preceding night. He believed that he might take it
for granted that the Reform Bill was intended to create
a constituency rpproachirg 150,000 voters, and in the
year 1837 the actual constituency was 122,000 some
odd hundreds but the proposal of the Noble Lord,
which they were told was to give a constituency like
that of England, would in point of fact giro them a
great .r constituency than that given by4the Reform
He could not, he must admit, blind him-
self to the argument of his Hon Friend (Mr. Stafford),
that those who voted with the Her,. Gentleman (Mr.
Hume) last night, and this night intended t o vote with I
the Noble Lord, were guilty of inconsistency.— (Hear,

MARCH 2, 1850

hear.) He wished also to obtain for his Honourable
Friend the majority who had supported the Noble
Lord, becense if it were otherwise the Noble Lord
might have the reproach justly cast upon him that ho
placed greater confidence in the peasantry of Ireland
then in the peasantry and the mechanics of England.—
(Hear.) Now, he had a great admiration of the virtues
of the Irish people; hut stil he could not think them
more peculiarly qualified to exercise the franchise than
the people of England,—(lfear.) He could not say
that the peasant's. of Lincolnshire and the artisans of
Birmingham were less worthy of the right of voting than
the owners of tenements in the bog of Allen.—(Lasigh-
ter.) Here the desire was to restore the constetueney of
Ireland to the lesel on which the Reform Bill had placed
them. He directly joined with the Nob!e Lord in !list
eedesvour; but he would not create an enfrely new con-
stisuency. If it veers adopted, it would nut confer the
least benefit upon Ireland, and it would lessen in the
minds of the people of England that respect and regard
for the representation of Ireland 'Which it was of imperial
moment to retain intact.—(Hear.)
The Committee divided, and the nuasbers were—
For the amendment ... 144
Against it ..• ..• ••• ••• 213
Majority against the amendment ... —69
On our return to the gallery we found
Mr. J. REYNOLDS addressing the Committee in
support of creating a 4/. instead of asi 8/. franchise; hut
having been inf 'rifled by the Chairman that he (amid
not then move it as an amendment, the Honourable
Member gave notice that he would take the sense of the
House upon it on the bringing up of the report. Ile
then proceeded to say that he had no objecton to re-
cognise the principle that a man ought not to be enrolled
unless he was rated to the relief of the poor; but he
thought it was decidedly wrong in principle to dsprive
him of the right of being enrolled unless he had paid
the rates.—(A laugh.) That, he belle ved, ought not to
be a condition, because at present the law provided
efficient remedies for the recovery of the rate as well a
the rent.—(Hear, hear.) He would suggest, therefore,
that the words bearing upon this point in the clause
should be omitted.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE declined to adopt the sug-
gestion cf the Hon. Gentleman, as being opposed to the
principle of the Bill.
Mr. REYNOLDS—Then I protest against the prin-
ciple of this Bill.--(Leughter.)
Mr. WALPOLE was of opinion that the days upon
whieh the rates were to be paid, in order t qualify.
a county or borough franchise, should be assimilated;
but as the Bill steed it provided that in the case of a
county qualification the rates should he paid on or be,
fore the let July, whilst in the case of boroughs the
date was the sth of July.—(Hear.)
Mr. BEIG-EIT concurred in opinion with the lion.
and Learned Gentlemar, and said it struck him that
fixing different days for paying the rotes might lead to
much confto ion.—(ilenr.)
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that he should be pre-
pared to consider this subjs ct when the Committee came
to the 6th el =use.
Mr. REYNOLDS said that in matey unions in Ire-
land there had knee an accurnulati n of arrears cf rates
so large that it would be impocrible to ersy them up.
Mr. HUME considered that the land had hi ea sub-
jected to very extraordinary eireurnsterees dariee the
past year—(Laughter, end cries of " Ileer")—arid he
contended, therefore, that the payment cf such rates
only as had been levied after the passing of this Act
should he a condition to the possession of the franchise.
Lord C. HAMILTON then rose to move the proviso
to the first dame, of which he had given notice, to the
effect that the voter should make a claim to be place I on
the register to the high constable of the b irony in which
he should to rated. The Noble Lord said he d'd not
ish in the slightest eegree to gain any political ad vsn-
t tee or party ohject by moving this amendment. his
vo!e object was that the measure should he cf a gene-
ral and impartial el erecter, and thst the real feet-
dom asd independence of ell classes of the electors
should be maintained. He felt that it was necessary
to protect those who might hold the right of voting
from undue influences as far as possible; for he was sorry
to say that it was notorious that in Ireland the consti-
teeecies were painfully open, arid exposed to the most
unfelt' and apparently tyrannical interferences in the
exercise of their franchise. It was an unpleasant thing
for an Irishmen to confess that such was the case; hut
no one who had resided in that country, and had wit-
nesg.d contested elections there, could fail to have a
strong impression on his mind that they were a perfect
mockery.—(Hear, hear.) Now, the objet he had in pre--
posing his amendment was to prevent any man being
placed in the painful dilemma of voting for one party or
the other without his own consent.—(lies.r, hear.) He
believed the Government had come forward, upon the
present occasien, redly with a sincere desire not only to
enlarge the constituencies, hunto do so fairly towards all
parties, without any political or party object; aid it was
from the strong 01-jertion he entertain, d to putting men
in the unferiunate position of being subjected, on the
one hand, to threats of 'ensporal injury, and, on the
ether, to threats cf punishment in the future world,
that he thought the Committee would act wisely and
justly by giving those parties the right of sa)itig wheth, r
they would or would not accept the franchise.—(Hear.)
It could not be denied that at present there was Ter)
great interference with the electors, and that in conse-
quence considerable disinclination prevailed to accept the
franchise that now existed. He believed that he was
thoroughly within the mark when he said that those
who were entitled to exercise the right, even under the
present law, might be multiplied by three.—(Hear,
hear.) Seeing, then, the existence of this disinclination,
surely it would be highly advisable that this House,
v. hich was really anxious to promote the welfare of Ire-
land, should deal with this as a fact, and that the people
should have the option of exercising the franchise or not
as they pleased. That was Lis proposition, and he main
I tined that it was quite as liberal an act to give a IThill
the right of refusal as to insist upon his using the fran-
chise. He might be told that he was endeavouring
place an impediment in the way of the franchise; but he
unhesitatingly disclaimed being actuated by any such e
desire. He wished to preserve those persons who were
enfhanchised from being exposed to the serious annoy-
ances which would he brought to bear upon them in
Ireland. Tie only asked the Committee to affirm the
principle without alopting the exact words of the
amendment, which, perhaps, in their present form might
be taken to apply t ) persons already on the register, or
to make the claim annual, which was not his intention.
Sir G. GREY said the adoption of the amendment
would destroy the value of a qualification founded upon
rating; the advantage of which was that it was telf-
acting. The independence cf the voter would be sacri-
ficed, instead of being maintained, if the amendment
were adopted.
The proviso was then put from the chair and m gativ_d
without a division.
Mr. J. REYNOLDS proposed the addition of a pro-
viso, to the effect that no person otherwise qualified to
ho registered should be held to be disqualified by rea on
of any arrears cf rates which have occurred previous to
the 16th of July, 1849.
The AT I ORNEY-GENER AL said the House could
not agree to the proviso, for the CI- ancellor of the Ex-
ceequer would object to it as a receipt in fall for all

arrears.
Mr. BRIGHT said that the Bill was not a measure
to erect the collection of rates, which would be dore
through the machinery of the poor•law, aid he, there-
fore, could see no objection to the proviso.
Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the Government would allow
the proviso to be added to the Bill, unless they could
tusign some other reasons than those given by the At-
torney-General.
Viscount CASTLEREAGH opposed the proviso.
Ltrd J. RUSSELL said the question had been already
decided by the House that the rates should be paid ep
to a certain day as a qualification for a vote, and now
that general decision having been been given, the ques-
tion was whether or not there should be any exceptions
made to it, because there had been peculiar distress in
the year 1849. Ho did not think as a general rule, for
the franchise had been laid down by the House. that it
would be expedient to make exception on account of
those cases of digress, and he could not for that reascn
support the proviso.

Mr. HUME regretted that the Government opposed
the provis^, but advised the Hon. Gentleman to withdraw
it for the present.
After a few 'word,; from Mr. CONNOLt..Y,
Mr. REYNOLDS said that in order to give the Go-
vernment time to consider the question he would not give
the House the trouble of dividing on the proviso at pre-
sent. He would, ther€fore, withdraw the motion.—(" No,
no," from the Opposition.)
The CHAIRMAN then put the question from the
chair, and the proviso was negatived without a division.
Clause 1, as amended, was then put from the chair,
and agreed to.
On clause 2,
Mr. HAMILTON suggested that, at that late hour,
the Chairman should report progress.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as there were many objoe-
tions to be s'nted relative to that clause, he concurred in
the advisability of reporting progress. With respect to
the clause itself he could only say he should he happy to
hear the opinions of Hon. Members connected with Irc-
land upon it, especially of those who were favourable to
the Bill. With respect to the statement which he bad
made at five o'clock relative to the conduct of business

of the House, he had to observe that the First Lord of
the Admiralty found it impossible to attend the House
on Monday, and as in his absence it would not be ad-
visable to bring forward the navy estimates, he proposce
to go on with the present Bill on Monday instead.
Mr. STAFFORD observed that the N.,ble Lord had
said he wi3he I particularly to hear the opinions of gen-
tlemen connected with Ireland, especially those who
supported him on the Bill. If opposing the proviso of
the Hon. Member for Dublin (Mr. neynol Is) amounted

to supporting the Bill, then he (Mr. Stafford) and 11i;
friends were supporters of the Bill, and the Noble Lord
ought to he happy to bear their opinions.—(Hear.)
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ot-
tained leave to sit again on Monday next, and the Howe
remitned.

The second reading of the Court of Chancery (Ire-
land) Bill was postponed to the 15sh of March.
Mr. CARDWELL sad, in the early part of tho even-
ing, he had stated that great interest was felt by the
public as to the Mercantile Marine Bill. He wished now
to ask whether it was likely that Bill would be brought
on on Monday next ?

Mr. LABOUCIIERE said be did n'A think there
wax any chance of bringing that Bill forward on
that evening, lie would therefore fix it for Friday
next.
REGISTRATION OF DEEDS (IRELAND) BILL.
Read a second time.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
house resolved its,ll into a Committee of Supply.
Resolved, teat a sum of 17,758,7004 be grantel to hcr
Majesty to defray the charge of outstanding Exc%cquer-
bills.—Agreed to. House resumed. Committee n
Monday next, The House at its rising to adjourn. -p Monday next,
Mr. lIEA.DLA.M obtained have '

a Dill to