The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

Museum, there was no library that could be called a
national library. In Paris there were no less than five
public libraries which were open to every class of society
from the highest to the lowest, and to the subject of
every country. There were four other libraries that
were admissible to the public among which were the
magazine library and the library of the arsenal,
In Russia there were also libraries, all of which were
opened to the public. In Saxony there were also
public libraries, several of which were in Dresden :
and even in Turkey itself, showing that that country
'was before England in that respect.--(Hear, hear.)
Even the British Museuat was not open to the poor man
and the citizen, as were the libraries of Paris, for it was
necessary to procure an introduction, in order to be
admitted into it. He thought that the two propositions
which he made were reasonable, and he believed they
would be finally assented to. He firmly believed that, if
her Majesty's Government took the matter into their
serious Consideration, they would not only do a great
deal of good, but would obtain a great deal of public
panegyric.—(Hear, hear.) , .
Lord-HOWICK said he concurred in much of what
had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman. He believed that
much remained to be done, in the way of provid-
ing the means of education for the people of this country,
because as their population increased in density the
facilities of misleading them also increased. It seemed
to him to be a source of considerable danger, that great
masses- of- the population were 'growing up without
any due means of instruction or information.—(Hear,
hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman; that it
was not desirable that education should be made a Go-
vernment measure. There was not its this country suf-
ficient of• mutual toleration among-the religious bodies
into which.' the population was - divided, to ren-
der it possible that anything like a system of
education being formed with advantage, and in this he
,thought the. Dissenters were as much- to' blame as the
Church, and the Church as much as the Dissenters.
He thought the Government judged wisely, after the
failure of last year, in not renewing a similar
experiment again. • But he thought they had experience
enough to, prove that the Government could 'do a great
deal to stimulate education without even a Legislative
enactment. What. they should aim at was to create a
"degire for education amongst the people, and to enable
parents to distinguish good schools from bad schools.
What he should suggest was, that there should be
a partial examination of the children of different
schools by examiners, to be • appointed by
the Government, who would give certificates to those
who answered best. Though there might be some
-difficulty at first in getting the children to attend,
he thought that a great change would very soon take
place in that respect, when they perceived what great-
advantage was derived from the possession of certificates.
They .all knew how earnestly the inferior situations of
the lower departments- of the public service were "coveted
by persons in the lower ranks of life ; and if a-
small number of situations, such as those of tide-waiters.
or -excisemen, were made the prizes for proficiency
at the public examination, it would be very beneficial.
This, he was convinced, would make these examinations
very successful. By a small sacrifice of patronage on the
part of the Government an immense advantage might be
obtained. He could not but think that a small portion
of the Government grant for education would be well
applied in giving rewards to those schoolmasters who
proved themselves worthy of them. He believed that
a comparatively. small sum thus applied would
go further than anything else to raise, the general
standard of the qualification of public schoolmasters.
He believed this to be a most important subject, and one
well worthy the attention of the Governtnent.
A short pause here ensued, and no one rising to ad-
dress the House,
The SPEAKER proceeded to the next order on the
paper, which related to
THE STATE TRIALS.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that as the opinion of the
Judges had not yet been delivered respecting the trial of
Mr. O'Connell and others, he would postpone until
another supply -day the question for an addreis to her
Majesty, praying her Majesty to release the prisoners.
Mr. WYSE then addressed the House, and hoped that
the Government would not let the observations of hiS
Noble Friend pass without expressing what their feel-
ings were on this important subject.
Sir R. PEEL said he did not think the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman contemplated the appointment of a
separate Minister to preside over the department of
public education. There would be difficulties in the
way of such an appointment, but the object might be ef-
fected by the constitution of a department from the
office that presided over the internal department of the
country. At the same time the duty at present devolved
on a part of the Government which paid great atten-
tion to the subject ; and he believed as much was ef=
fected by the Committee of the Privy Council. He
held in his hand -the report of this body for the year
1843, and he recommended Hon. Members to make
themselves acquainted with its contents. He thought
they were too much in the habit of making motions for
the production of reports on different subjects while the
did not make use of all the information already in their
possession. This report 'contained a mass of most mi-
nute information, and before fresh particulars were
pressed for he would recommend Hon. Members to make'
themselves acquainted with what was before them al-
ready. The work had been thrown into a form more
tempting than a blue book.—(Laughter.) He hoped
before they proceeded to make any new appointments or
give new salaries, they would afford a fair trial to the
present superintending body. 'There was an annual vote
from the House applied to the purposes of education,.
and, according to the demands of the country, the Go,
vernment would call for an increase of that vote, perfectly
certain that the House would respond to that just de-
mand. In "one point be fully concurred with the Noble'
Lord. lie believed that if some of the subordinate
patronage of the. Government were applied as a reward
to young persons of merit, educated in schools at the
public expense, he was certain that the loss to a Go-
vernment—mould -be- amply compensated. It was
the duty of all Governments to strengthen the
foundations .on which good governments must rest;
and nothing eould more conduce to this effect than the
applying a portion of the subordinate patronage of the Go-
vernment in the manner he had stated. There might be
some difficuly in the way of appointing young personi
immediately to situations in the revenue, on account of
/the early age at"whie4 they quitted the schools, but if
at were possible tp effect it, vtlie application of this por-
-tion of the patronage, of the Government would he
advantageous andbeneficial. There was great jealousy
among the people against Government interference with
'education. It denoted great independence of spirit. Let
them not blame it too hastily—it had its advantages as
-well-as disadvantages, though-still-it was an obstruction
in the way of, a sound and uniform system of education.
He could assure the House than any suggestion on this
subject would receive the consideration of Government.
Lord HO WICK said he-was perfectly satisfied with
the suggeitions thrown out by the Right Hon. Gentleman:"
He hoped he would consider also the advantage of ap-
pointing impartial examiners from among the public for
the schools; whether this patronage in the shape of re-
ward were given or not.
Mr. EWART said, he had referred to the establish•.
ment of libraries.
Sir ROBERT PEEL could not conceive anything
more binding on the rich....manufaetnrers.in the different
districts, than assisting in the establishment of libraries
for the working classes. Where there were wealthy
manufacturers, who had derived thousands and tens of
thousands from the labour of the working classes, he
could not imagine a more becoming return than esta-
blishing institutions of this kind.- lie believed in many
parts of the country this was the case.
Mr. EWART—There was not one town in England
where there was a library open to the public as they were
abroad.

Sir R. PEEL thought the Hon. Gentlemen hardly did
justice to the ,manufacturers of the country. The ex-
pense was so small, and the effect on the connection be-
tween rich and poor so beneficial, that he should be
-sorry-to see the Government stepping in to relieve pri-
vate exertions from that which had been attended with
so good an effect. The interference of the Government
would tend to check that exertion.
Mr. EWART explained, amid cries of" Question."
Sir R. PEEL—I know the Hon. Member mentioned
schools of design, but surely he said libraries also.
The subject then dropped.
CASE 'OF MR. ROLLS.
Mr. FITZNIAURICE then rose to draw the attention
of the House to the case of Mr. Joseph Henry Rolls.
This gentleman had been for fifteen years a landing-
Waiter in the service of the Customs, and had borne a
most irreproachable character. In the year 1840, Mr.
Rolls had overtures made to him by an individual to de-
fraud the Government. He reported those overtures to
the Surveyor-General, and made a memorandum of
them at •the time, and put it in his desk. Mr. Rolls had
stated before the •Commissioners of Revenue Inquiry
that the 'frauds Would not have been committed if the
landing-waiters had had freer access to the board. From
1840 to 1842, no case of suspicion had occurred, and in
that year Mr. Rolls had been suspedded and dis-
charged. The wording of the charge against Mr. Rolls
differed from the wording of the other charges. The
other officers were charged with having concealed the
overtures made to them from the board, and from their
superior officers. The words " superior officers" were
omitted in the charge against Mr. Rolls. He-appeared
before Mr. Dawson, made his defence, and stated that he
had reported the overtures to his superior officers. The.
Commissioners reported that the communication which
Mr. Rolls had made ought to have been sufficient 16 have
aroused' the suspicions of his superior officer. Mr. Rolls,
however, was dismissed, but the Commissioners of
Revenue Inquiry recommended .that, he should be
reinstated ; yet, in May last, the Lords of the Treasury
had confirmed his dismissal. He should like to know by
whom 'Mr. Rolls was dismissed ; why by those who
never heard a single word of the evidence against him.
Could such persons, he would ask, be proper judges of
his case ? If Mr. 'Rells was guilty, let him be sent to
Newgate ; but if he was innocent, let him be placed
is the situation he was in before. If he was unfit
for one situation, surely he was unfit for all, and if such
was the case, why was his salary kept up? He firmly be-
lieved in the innocence of Mr. Rolls; and such being the
case, he would conclude. by moving that the petition of
Mr. Rolls should be referred to a Select Committee, who
Were to report.thereon, with the evidence, to the House.
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHEQUER said
that, from the number of orders and notices.on the paper,
he did not anticipate "the motion of the Hon. Member
would have come on for discussion, The papers on the
subject,had been ordered, but were not yet on the table
of the House. Ho regretted this the more, because they
would have represented, 'more clearly the situation of
the question than the Honourable Member had done.
There were circumstances .in .which this gentleman
might have formed erroneous opinions, but be ,was
always inclined to put a lenient construction on his acts.
The Right Hon. Gentleman
,then• detailed the- circum-
stances which led -to .the stumpaion of-Mr. Rolls. When
he fi„rst cornnidlllcated-to.the chairman of the Board of
CifettOnla what had been told him concerning' Mr.

t,l 1.

Rolls, that gentleman wrote back, saying he IT
soon suspect him as he would his own brother._
report of the Board of Customs distinctly statedMn
that degree of confidence could not be repose°, to the
Rolls which had justified his being restorea, up
situation which he filled. But his salary was Pan,' ale,
to the period at which the communication _ die
and another situation was offered to him, but o_l v;:„ed,
ferent character from that which he previously
The course pursued was that which was strictlycuvef
sistent with the public interest, and with the ver
the Board of Revenue. He had done all be cowlsap!it
-make-therereatal of-Mr. Rolls easy, both with re Ad
to his feelings, and in a pecuniary point of
he could say was, that he regretted that his Hon• ".fe f
r
should use any expression derogatory to the chara_tected in
the Chairman of the Board of Customs, as he suoald
the way which most men acquainted with the facts 0
have done, and which was for the advantage of the Inl
welfare. a lope
Mr. DUNCOMBE did not think justice had bee the
to the character of Mr. Rolls by the Chancellor of
Exchequer. Mr. Rolls had acted throughout with
dependent and manly integrity ; he had comtnllll_lool,
the offer to bribe him to the Survey
but that officer had not, as he should have done, ;'dio
municated it to the board until the frauds we,r,sraled
covered, twelve months after. He had been inform ,
that favouritism was going on to a most disgracettere
officers ern,
w
tent, and that young and inexperienced a
placed over the heads of most experienced, efficient
who had been for years in her Majesty's service', 01
thought a strong case for inquiry had been made out,
he hoped the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would e'iride
the House upon his motion. „ to
Sir R. PEEL thought it was unwise in the 11°11;-beir
attempt to control • the Board of Customs in
patronage. He thought it had not been shown that ie
r
Board of Customs had acted in an improper manse •
r
the case which had just been brought under the e onsid
„,ent,
ration of the House. He held in his hand a state-d of
which had been signed by six members of the 130?1.001
Customs, containing grounds why this Mr. Rolls sn the
not be reinstated in his situation. It appeared fromb bad
report which had been made by the Committee whire..ads,
been appointed to investigate the Custom -house " d in
that Mr. Candy, ,a person who had been engage gr.
smuggling transactions, had made a proposal to Ibis
Rolls, for the purpose of defrauding the Customs. bed
proposal, it was true, Mr. Rolls had rejected, but he,,er
failed to inform the Board of Customs of the cirelis,
stances. Although there was no imputation on the efted
ratter of Mr. Rolls, yet circumstances had 00,11' his
which rendered it unadvisable to reinstate him 1.101)
situation. Under these circumstances, he (Sir , the
hoped the House would not entertain the motion. 'o'
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman. that
Mr. HAWES trusted that what had passed in
hint'
House would not affect Mr. Rolls in any other OP°
went for which he might apply. f etc
„Lord G. LENNOX defended the character
00
Ras', 'arid said that, in his opinion; the Comtnissie
of Customs had not sufficiently considered his case-, his
believed. that-Mr. Rolls had been withdrawn from.le tit
situation by the Board of Customs upon insa&
evidence. '
d bee
Mr. 'F. T. BARING regretted that allusion had fie
made to the appointments in the Custom-house"„ the
thought it was much better to leave such matters to the
6cmsideration of the Board of Customs, as they were
only responsible parties.
Captain FITZMAURICE, in withdrawing hl5 hese
tine, explained that he should have moved for to,ag
papers three months ago, had he not understood plot)
the intention to re-consider the case of Mr. Rolls,
a view to his restoration to office.
The motion was then, by leave, withdrawn.
INCENDIARY FIRES. • tee
Mr. M. GIBSON said he rose, according to the to
tice he had given, to call the attention of the Ilens;or
the ineendiarism now prevalent in the counties of
tiro
folk, Sliffolk, Essex, and Cambridge. He was
that the fires were happily not so extensive .‘f
bre
as they had been a short time ago, but this
interval of reason furnished no reason wh;l','; en,
for not inquiring into the condition of the pop
which appeared to have given rise to this most awfw,"he
wicked crime. The extent of the crime, it could ne" 0(
doubted, had been very great during the last si%ati;.
eight months, and he was speaking within the lea
when he said that considerably more than one "nee,
,fires had occurred during that period in Suffo/k aping
and peihaps ,upwards of two hundred in the adj°l"in.
counties to the county of Suffolk. 'He had been .1,
formed at an office which insured upwards of four rel se
lions of agricultural property, that their-losses by
at
incendiary fires alone exceeded all their other losses Pt°
together; so that if the practice of incendiarism werethe
continue It was clear it would be necessary fel. ace
offices ' greatly to increase their rates of instill/o
fee. agricultural property, or, not doing • all.
they would be obliged to leave off insuring it ati,
They had lately seen such a general display of 111 'o ,gf
nant feeling, and such a total disregard of the rig the
..peeperty.r.that_a_wag_woom_ an -absolute-duty Ptale
Government to probe the matter to the bottom. .'tent
a variety of causes had been assigned fir the discon_ ae,
from which it had been alleged that this horrible Pr be
tiecof incendiarism had originated. The motinnthe
-(Mr. Gibson) intended to propose was in effect inv
nature of an address to the Crown, calling (,n the is.
vernment "to send down into these counties a Coint°ll.o
sion of.trustworthy, discreet, and confidential men,
,„
can be depended on, for the
purpose or inquiring in!,,
the general condition- of the agricultural labourerli;
those counties, and for the purpose of ascertalle
what are the grievances tinder which they
supposed to suffer. He (Mr. Gilson) mentioned o.eit
days ago to the House that 'he thought it desirable
tio
a cOnimission should be sent dotvn into the Ea the
Counties for the purpose he had mentioned, butnt et
Right Hon: Secretary. (Sir James Graham) 'did stated
that time accord with his .opinion, and, in fact, 1.1-4,11
that he could not, agree to the proposition '"muted
further consideration. He (Mr. Gibson) now air
co.
that the further consideration which the Hight "livid
Baronet had been enabled to give to the subject
n.
induce him- to send down. discreet persons to roaathis
quiries upon this subject. that oHe did not suggest f
inquiry should be made through the instrgguruentqthe
the Poor-law Commissioners, not but what be 1111;0s 0
greatest confidence in those gentlemen; but there
be
certain feeling abroad as to the poor-law itself, that t,
hieC should fear. any report made by them upon the 51.„I'''onla
would: not be satisfactory to the, public, who A,. oat
rather believe that a case was attempted to be made 9
for .the good working: of the poor-law rather t'.a he
searching inquiry into the actual condition °l,,,;tret
agricultural labourers. When he mentioned this sled
oni.a former occasion, the Right Hon. Gentleman ,ere
suggested that it should rest for a time, as there "iv
triali about to take' place for this very crime eifs of
cendierism, and it would be wise to await the reloo•
then). But he (Mr.,Gibson) called on the Right otter
Gentleman to take a statesman's View of this la;is•
rather than that of a police-officer or a mere adrait
_trator of the law. He called upon him not to t11„,!;ng
'Chief. officer's view of such matters, but one bece;",lls
a high 'and resposible adviser of the Crown. What
wanted' was this, that . the Government shoto,.-„„lo
thordughly into the depths of the case—that they 5"" if
,probe the existing cause of this crime with a vie: sc,
possible, of guarding against it for the future. It nr eV
perhaps, be too much to assume that want and ta-'l,e. :
were the exciting causes of this crime, when mandec
those now in charge could not plead this as Ifi
1- 5 se
euse, for their hatred of property ; but nothing vv9itsil
wenknown as that where considerable discontent t All
murmuring prevail, there will be found individuels,!thei
times ready to work out the:greatest crimes, thong" bleb
were not themselves the sufferers from the evils w as
prevailed. And he (Mr. Gibson) could say frellinsld
authority, that both in that House and out of it
alike tommandrespect—he meant Sir Henry Bunbtl of
that this crime of incendiarism was but the syrnPt° fled
,the, dangerous, and deep discontent which pribet
amongst the labouring population.--(Hear, hear.) a 001
high authority used these very words ;—" I most ";vnalr
my conviction that these incendiary fires are the 51„-gsl
tomie °Pa smouldering and dangerous discontent atn°jejr.
the.' rural population."—(Hear, hear.) Now he
.„`erir
Gibson) thought he had a right to call on the Ge,.,-in'
meat to send down discreet and proper persons:beet`
stitnte an inquiry into the allegations which ha", be
made; and he had a double right to do this, vtliet
recollected the statements which had been wau' ns‘ "te'
former occasion by the Right Hon. Gentleman
of the necessity of maintaining the comfort an. King
being of the rural population, and in accorres eat
this, even to consent to sacrifice in ei Fests
degree. the trading and commercial if te.,. tie'
of the. country.--(Hear, hear.) Honourable Geiogi
men opposite had contended on a well-known oees-eaes
that they must maintain their. loved and lauded,sQciri'
of rural felicity, which the Right Hon.
Baronet (10,05
Graham) had declared would at once cease if the core loft '
were repealed. Reverting, however, to the rertiiari
which many asserted to be the cause of those intend aot
fires, he (Mr. Gibson) wished to know if they Might
these fires when the allowance system was at its ",;dto
under the old poor-law?—(Hear, hear.) He wani„ren"
know haw it was that, under the old poor-law, 'rider
diarism existed 'to as great an extent as it did now 11 lied
the new poor-law ?—(Hear, hear.) From this 11,,ealte'
a 'right to conclude, that if the disease were ncui Jae;
gether of a chronic nature, there was something bee
the mode of relief which prompted those most 'ivi `eyeinto
crimes.e--(Hear, hear.) Without going, however'(gr;
the. question of the operation of the poor-law, ,;"„ otao-
Gibson) could not help feeling that there might " were
truth in,the assertion that the labouring classes brin''
prejudiced against that law ; but he could n°.„atiell,
himself to think it was the main cause of the aleli-ers
between the peasantry and the owners and occupier on"
land. He said then, as he, had said before in andea
of that House, that there was no class 01ds'
in this country more .disposed to be In
041;
trious—more disposed to be orderly—More lA
ling to bear up manfully against distresslistriets
privations than the agricultural labourers of the 'Jilt teiv
he was now alluding to. If he wanted to pick
amples of good conduct, he should go to the lave, that
of the eastern counties ; and he could not but fe_Jatire,
the discontent must be of a very deep and serior.o.nte 00
to, induce men of such good natural disposition:;sris°
perpetration of so awful a crime as that of incenu'ret the
and here he must say that he could not, but refire the
conduct of an Hon. Gentleman opposite, one on °t
Members for Norfolk (Mr. Wodebouse), who, Wee
former occasion overlooking altogether the ocer
which -want and despair have OD men's moral Ee doll°
tions—had assumed that nothing with
, lt
towards the suppression of crime, save thronzwu
"strumentality of the gibbet, and had founo,,_ pain)
the very proper exercise of the mercy of "%illain/
beneficial could",
tile ill,
which the Right Hon. Geiitleman (Sir Jatnestid
had authorised in the case of the two youths fefnis,greolKrt
at one,"Of the' recent assizes for the county °,-,aut1e036,0
He did-not mean to say that the Honourable Gen
'had-made such a remark as he had mentioned,
but
et h°
who had heard this question would have th,trfoanbot
questioned the course of the Right Hos'. *°6