The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-11 00:00:00

TMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

OUSE OF COMMONS. April 10.
OUN MC COURTS EXITNSIOS BILL.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. B. DENISON had been a little surprised to see
thh r-aid progress which had been made of late years
in LUIS new c. stem of jielicature ; and he could not help
urging the House to pause before they consented to the
proposed extension. One of his objections to the Bill
was, that it would do away with a great part of the
benefit of the existing Act. It was proposed to establish
a.csurt of appeal, but if such a provision were assented
to, very few decisions in these courts would give satisfac-
tiqn. A Bill of this nature was of too great a magni-
tude to be brought in by a private Member, and should,
he thonght, have been introduced by the Government
upen its own responsibility. The country had not yet
had sufficient experience of the working of the present
Act, and on that ground he should oppose any further
extension of it.
Mr. MITCHELL supported the Bill, and said the delay
and expense consequent upod a trial in a superior court
was so great that solicitors were in the habit of telling
their clients that they had better be robbed of 1001. than
run the risk of a trial for that sum before a nisi prius
judge. Actions in those courts were seldom or never
tried before two years, and after getting a verdict some
legal quibble might be started, and a new
\trial obtained, and perhaps no definite result was ar-
rived at until after the lapse of four or five
years, by which time the property in dispute might, to
Use a vulgar expression, have eaten off its own head.
Indeed, so great was the dislike of parties to enter a su-
perior court, that in 99 cases out of 100 they settled their
disputes by arbitration.
Xr. HENLEY would vote against the second reading.
If the Bill were passed, it would effectually destroy the
usefulness of the existing county courts, which were
now working very well, for if the judges had to deal
with large sums and important points of law, they would
bo compelled to slur over all cases of a minor character.
The number of debtors in the year 1845, before the
county courts came into operation, was 2,047, in 1846,
the first year of the new Act, the number was 3,847, and
in 1348 it had swelled up to 8,784. This showed the
working of the Bill; and he should not be disposed to
second its extension.
Mr. COCKBURN gave his earnest support to the
second reading of this Bill. He could not see any ma-
terial difference between 201. and 501., and whea he saw
that these courts had already worked well, he did not
see why they should not extend their jurisdiction. It
was said that they were doing away with trial by jury.
He entertained a deep sense of the good which trial
by jury had done for this country in political cases, but
in trials of property and common law he thought
that very frequently a single judge was a more
efficient tribunal.—(Hear, hear.) With juries which
could he got in Westminster and Guildhall, and in many
of the towns, and a judge of the superior courts presid-
ing, he thought thet this country could present the finest
tribunal in the world; but the experience of many years
told him that that was not always the case with juries
which were got at many of the assizes. They had a
great example in the equity courts, where there were
no juries. An objection of this kind was disposed
of by the proviso in the Bill, which gave a right
of appeal to all who thought fit to claim it. There was
one point which appeared to have been passed over by
every Gentleman who had spoken eon the subject, and
that was, that with the exception of London and West-
minster, justice was only administered at intervals of
twice a year in the country. It was all very well for
Hon. Gentlemen to get up in the House and eulogise the
state of the law in this country. True it was that it was
impossible that the character of judges could stand higher
than the character of the English judges did; but when
they considered the number of the tribunals which existed,
the prolixity of the pleadings, and the fact that the law
was a scaled book to the great mass or the people, he
thought that was not a state of the law which called for
eulogy—far from it. One of the signs of the times
which he hailed with great delight was, that the most
eminent lawyers were becoming gradually more and
more sensible of the many abuses in the law, and
were ashamed of them. This was why it was
that they saw his Honourable and Learned Friend
the Solicitor-General, and even the Attorney-General,
coming forward as law reformers. He could only say
that he gave his earliest and cordial support to the
second reading of the Bill, which he considered was a
great step in the direction of reform.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that he
should be wanting in his public duty if, regardless of all
imputations on his motives, he did not state that this Bill,
if-passed, would entirely destroy the good working of
the county courts. But first he would beg to say that,
in regard to the hints which had been thrown out by the
Hoe. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Ponte-
fract, that those .reforms had long been under the
consideration of Government. Every argument which
had been urged by the supporters of the Bill bad been
directed not to the earn of 504 bat to the general ju.
risdiction of the superior courts. He did not wish to
say anything in imputation of the gentlemen connected
with the county courts, but he thought that the clause
relating to the increase of salaries had much to do with
the introduction of this Bill. He did not state this
rashly, for he held in his hand a circular addressed by
the clerks of the county courts throughout the country
to the mayors in different parts of the kingdom,
e nelosing a short form of petition to be presented by them
to the House praying that all officials should no
Linger be paid by tees, but by salaries. It was
pretty evident that the question of salaries was at
the bottom of the introduction of this measure.
The measure was so sweeping in its character that it
would not only take away the jurisdiction of the supe-
rior courts over sums between 201. and 501, but would
abolish every local court which existed in the kingdom
for the recovery of small debts. The Bill allowed
the plaintiff and defendant to be sworn
aed examined, and he would ask the sup-
porters of the Bill if they were prepared to introduce
this principle into the superior courts? Lawyers knew
tart in instances where such a privilege had been al-
layed the plaintiff and defendant had sworn point blank
against each other, and there could be no doubt that the
tendency of this measure, if passed, would be to encou-
rage' the crime of perjury. But there was an-
other objection to the Bill. The fact of having a
judge who resided in the district and a local jury would
be open to the suspicion that partialities might be shown
in-the decision-of cases. He considered that the Bill
was fill of objections, and would be fraught with great
claimer if pat into operation, and begged of the House
to pause before it gave an assent to the second reading.
Mr. AGLIONBY gave his cordial support to the
Bill, and bore testimony, in his own person, to the grie-
vbus effects of the present system of adjudication.
Mr. MUIikLINGS could not understand the course
which was taken by the Government with re-
gard.. to this Bill. He had not been converted by
the arguments which had been used by the Learned
Attorney-General. He should give his cordial support
to it, for he considered that it was a Bill which, with
reference to the movements of reform which were abroad
at this day, was a step in the right direction. He
thought it would confer a benefit upon the public at
large.
Mr. HUME wished to remind the Attorney-General
that he had not answered a question put to him, whether
he.would advise a client of his to go into the superior
courts for the reeovery of a sum of a smaller amount
then.loo/. He (Mr. Hume) should support the Bill, be-
cause he thought it would do more for the public in the
saving of time, trouble, and expense in law proceedings,
than any other measure. He was astonished at the Go-
vernment opposing themselves :to such a measure as
the present. He hoped that the House would overrule
all the technical objections which had been raised
against' it.
Mr. FITZROY replied. He was quite ready to submit
his Bill to all the suggestions which had been thrown out
clueing the present discussion; all he asked the House
weato Confirm the principle of the Bill by passing the
second reading- He could not allow the Attorney-
Gemini's slighting remark with reference to the feeling
of tie, country we
ct
this Bill. There was no doubt but
that it was a subje
on which the Rountry at large felt
very, etronglyeand he was convinced that in bringing
forward, this measure he was acting in accordance ith
the'eXTAreesed washes of the country.
The Ilotist'then divided, when there appeared--
For the second reading of the Bill ... 144
'Atai-nt it'
67
67
-Miijority for the second reading —77
On re-snterrng the gallery we found
• -Me. FIUME inquiring whether, after this demonstra-
tion of the feeling of the House on this subject, the
Government would persevere in their opposition to it?'
Sir G. GREY said that be should certainly feel it his
fluty to oppose; .the. increase of salaries proposed by the
he mould, no state What further opposition it
vianidrneet with from the Governmeot.
PUBLIC- tIBRARIES AND AIUSEUMS BILL.
E WART moved that the House should go into
'4
coadisittee onhhie Bill.
Colohei SIBTHORP thought the poorer classes had
already rates enough, without imposing fresh ones for
the 'purpose of recreation and entertainment. This Bill
would.be partial in its operation; it would be bene-
ficial to people residing in, and in the vicinity of, large
:towns;but the. people residing in the agricultural dis-
.t,ihweeild not be in a situation to avail themselves
of it. Ile objected to the principle of the Bill;
Ire did not know how far it might go, and ho would move
that the
Bill this day
Rouse ,resolve itself into a Committee on this
4iX months, and he would take the sense of
the Abuse on that question.
Mr' NEIVIDEGesTE granted that it was most desire-
hie that the means of information should be supplied to
the ;Teeple; bus .k
thought it most unwise ts tax the
people in boroughs or counties for purposes not
of immediate necessity,believing thatit lie
would,
there ore, oppose
the
t deco
such measure at a time w
T. undesirable to- in ro
trailed so extensively, ass en agricultural distress pre-
spreading towards the towns. Which distress was rapidly
Mr. STANFORD thought vies'
the retcpayers its a borough slit objectionable that
ziotied Of the indention to levy
d have only ten days'
pose's. 'of th'e Bill, as was yroa rate for the pur-
lie aid. not, however, object toP theposed by the Bill.
thoof Bill. He thought it was an oversight Spirit or principle
Bill diet not provide that the librariesoversight that the
and m
be created under it were to be open to the useums to
Public for any
stated periods. When the Bill went into
Committee he
should move an amendment, that ev
ineuesbent of" ery rector, vicar, or
a parish which it was sought to intro. mice it, should be an ex-officio member of the corn • mittee
or council of any public library or museum
under the Bill. established

Mr. HUME supported the Bill.
Mr..L kW objected to the principle of the Bill, because
it taxed the more influential inhabitants of a borough fur
the establishment of. a library for the benefit of the less
influential inhabitants, to be placed under the control
or the town, councils.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it
was ,time •augh to go into Committee on such