The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-12 00:00:00

Officer would let the House go to a division, without di-
t iding on the 'notion. It hail been a long time before
the Idolise; and wit, an advance , not a grant, to Ireland.
Lord J. RU3SELL said in respect to the Bill tie tad
Texheprre:sed his desire to bring it forward before Easter.
Was, he had found, au order for returns; but it had
I,l° immediate reference to the Bill. It was sent to Ire-
'and. and the reply had net yet been received. When it
Was received it would be laid before the House.
Air. G. BANKES did not think the motion of his
lon. and Gallant Friend an unreasonable one, at that
hour of the night, and considering the constitution of the
liouse Was almost exclusively Irish in its character. The
Rouse had Lean told on previous occasions that each ad-
ranee would be the last; but he was of cpiuion that
loans and grants in this case were all the same.—(" No.
no," from several Irish Members.) lie had not heard
the precise grounds for the grant in question made by
the Noble
Lord; and ho thought it would be more
setisfactory to the country that the debate should be
adjourned.
Colonel DUNNE denied that the House was exclu-
sively Irish; on tt.e contrary, Irish Members were
mostly absent oe Irish questions, and so, generally
aPaakieg, were Hon. Mensuers on the 'other side of the
House. He regretted that the Bill was brought forward
at that late hour, as many Irish Members were anxious
express their opinions on the subject; especially as
they might then get a reply from the Noble laird on the
'set of
the poor-law in Ireland. There would al-
waYa ue applications t,l- grants until that question was
settlel. As no proper explanation had been given of the
mode in which the money was to be disposed of, he
should also Concur in the adjournment.
HERBER r also thought it advisable to adjourn
the debate. Ile must at the same time protest against
the proposition of the Hon. Member (Mr. Bankes), that
at,s and grants, as regarded Ireland, were the same
thing. He was prepared to show that the money lent
had on all occasions been repaid, until the late calami-
tous famine by which that country was afflicted; and he
Would further show, by the evidence of Sir John Bur-
4eYrie---en English commoner—that England had actu-
ally made a considerable profit by its loans to Ireland, a
higher interest being received there than could be ob-
tained elsewhere. He thought, then, that these charges
Ought not to be lightly made, as they were calculated to
Prejudice Ireland in the eyes of the people of England.
With regard to the present grant, he must say that no
one regretted more than he did the existing system of
loans and grants to Ireland, but it arose mainly because
the advice of Hon. ?etembers, who knew what were the
wants and requirements of Ireland, had been totally
disregarded.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr- R. M. FOX reminded the House that out of
9,000,000/, lent to Ireland, according to returns laid on
the table of that House, not less than 7,000,000/. had
been repaid. Ho hoped, upon the serious charges that
had been brought against Irish Members, that the Go-
vernment would postpone the question, to afford them
an opportunity of replying to them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
the House that their means were in such a state of pe-
cuniary embarrassment that any delay would be pro-
ductive of the greatest inconvenience.—(Hear, hear.)
Re appealed to the House whether it would not be most
cruel to postpone the consideration of the grants to these
unions until the whole question of the policy of the
granting loans of money to Ireland, and the manner in
Which they had been disposed of, were entered into?
Lord BERNARD admitted that the question was of
the greatest importance to Ireland, to facilitate the set-
tlement of the poor-law in that country. There were
'many complicated arrangements to be made contingently
400Puobntitehsee be
eanting of this loan, and the delay would
productive of the greatest possible incon-
venience. No one could regret more than himself the
necessity of these appeals on the part of Ireland. but he
felt satisfied that the present grant would be productive
et' the greatest advantage, and relieve a great deal of the
existing suffering and distress.
Tho O'GORMAN MAHON protested against the
observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that
any Portion of the Irish Members wished to offer any
„°Pposition to the progress of the present measure. The
4atlourable Member for Dorsetshire had made an impu-
tation against Ireland and Irish Members generally;
but that charge had been fairly and honourably met.
and had been met by anticipation by the Right
.110 n. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
himself before Easter, when he told the House that the
loans to Ireland bad been repaid with a punctuality that
has quite wonderful under the circumstances. He trusted
is lion. and Gallant Friend, with whom he had sat so
many years in that House, would not persevere in his
present motion. He knew him to be erratic and Quix-
otic occasionally—(A laugh)—but ever good-humoured
and cheerful, never doing any mischief, but if he perse-
vered on the present occasion he certainly would do
Mischief, yet he never was disposed to do ILO ungenerous
act. When he stated that thousands of his countrymen
had died, and thousands were still suffering, he thought
it unnecessary to make any further appeal to the Hon.
and Gallant Member to withdraw his amendment.
anyhad
iimputationntended to oe n
say
theli .a pf,eopleo
Mr. G. BANKES stated that he had not meant to cast
of Ireland. All that he
that although the had repaid
as large a portion of thse
ad vannocets
reapsatihdeters
muchn h a p py
condition had allowed, they had as
he could have desired.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL expressed a hope that the
House would reserve until the Committee the considera-
tion of the details of the Bill.
Mr. A. STAFFORD said he was well aware of the
necessity of adopting that measure, and he only wished
the Government had given it precedence over that other
Irish Rill with which the House had been occupied du-
ring so large a portion of the evening. He should be
prepar ed to supprrt the second reading of the Bill, if
er Majesty's Ministers would give an assurance that
tht.'"ey would, on a future occasion, give an ample oppor-
'unity for its consideration.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that, in a district with which
'la was intimately acquainted, the Poor-law Commis-
etoners had thwarted the efforts of the guardians to re-
duce the amount of expenditure. The guardians had
Proposed that the salaries of the officers should to re-
eee'l by a sum of 2,5001., but the Commissioners had
refused to sanction any reduction.
Lord, J. MANNERS said he ,hoped that for the fu-
ture the Government would press forward that measure
411 preference to the Irish Franchise Bill. He should be
very much surprised if the Irish Members did not feel
'at the measure then under their consideration was of
Much more immediate importance to their unhappy
country,
Viscount NAAS said that unless the Government
Pledged themselves to afford the House on an early day
an opportnnity of fully considering the Bill, he should
feel it his duty to vote in favour of the adjournment of
the discussion.
Lord J.
vdrished to have an
RUSSELL said, that if Hon. Gentlemen
opportunity of entering into a general
1;111°484°n of the state of Ireland, he should be quite
oefady to bring forward that measure at an early period
othe evening for the purpose of affording that oppor-
tQteey Buthe could not pledge himself in the present
discuss °' P
inublic business to fix an early day for such a
Colonel
k.
SIBTHORP said he was not satisfied with
that answer of the Noble Lord, and he should therefore
press his amendment.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment of the House 23
Against it *** 131
Majority against the adjournment --108
Lord JOHN RUSSELL informed the Honourable
3/421 Gallant Member for Lincoln that the papers he
wtt desirous to have produced were actually on the
table of the House, although they were not printed.
Colonel SIBTHORP—Not on my table.—(Laughter.)
Inl not to be changed from that course which I con-
siderread the.proper one, and I now move that the Bill be
a second time this day six months.—(oh, oh.)
„fall% ARK WRIGHT seconded the amendment.
SPOONER thought that the Noble Lord had
pl mbed the best reason that could be urged for the
at:4lB Pc'nement of this measure. He was not prepared to
these for or against the Bill until he had seen
th. Papers. He would now move the adjournment of
- 'abate
Colon.;
asked SIBTHORP maid that he had repeatedly
hoe_ infer lr
he production of these papers, and had never
theUrnsed until then that they were on the table of
M;-tnri,e,,IIAYTER said that the Hon. and Gallant
Easter °ad applied to him on the subject before
until bout thes apers , which could not be produced
after Eastere .. They were not, however, printed.
Lord a
coo
ed -OHN RUSSELL said that unless the House
afraidto it a
its di read the Bill now a second time he was
Wsculd o impossible to appoint a convenient day
discuss be
taktitANKES did not understand the Noble Lord to
Pthe a day for the discussion of this measure. When
eers were moved for, having reference to a Government
ur
'sure,r he thought
them
the Government were responsible
the pir it rioting ti .
The O'GORMAN MAHON asked the Right Hon. the
"'Peaker whether those papers ought not to have been
printed?
le4he SPEAKER said that it was not necessary, un-
Ittl application was made to' the Printing Com-
ittee, or a motion was made is the House to have them
Printed.
a Lord J. RUSSELL said that if this Bill were to be
uthefeisted by an opposition of this kind, t would be well
1" the country should understand ernth ature of these
s°P.,eated divisions.
0„`4,,,,r. A. STAFFORD having voted with the minority
"le last division, could not, in consistency, vote witb
tht(Noble Lord.
The House again divided, when there appeared—
For the adjournment of the debate 6
Against it •-• 134
Colo Majority against the adjournment —l2B _
Sibthorp's amendment was then negatived
wl.ll.out a division.
cue Bill was ultimately read a second time.
C tho motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
and.Q,UER he Stamp
_ Duties Bill went pro forma into Committee
Ate 7as ordered to be reprinted and recommitted on
nutty.
Ouloe
thee SIBTHORP moved that the papers be printed,
ttordgare notice of his intention, on the motion of the
the e reading, that he would move an amendment that
bao_a_t!rther Progress of it be postponed until that day six
The (Laughter.)
the °HA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded
just bR°
cohn• acid Gallant Gentleman that the Bill that had
not thee° to Committee was the Stamp Duties Bill, and
in 48 Distressed Unions Advances (Ireland) Bill, and
dare Peet to his motion, the papers had already been or-
-000, be printed.
/ shallu'l SIBTHORP—Then I wish to give notice that
The (2Pose every Government Bill.—(Laughter.)
The nse having resumed.
Ind
a"B."_°,ginents (Ireland) Bill was read a third time
The
CI.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL brought in a Bill to