The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-14 00:00:00

LONDON,

subject upon which human wisdom and legislative dis-
eus,ion had a right to be heard.

Mr. ANSTEY protested against the Hon. and Learned
Member for the University of Dublin speaking in the
name of the Roman Catholics of In-land—a superbtitioua
and idolatrous body, with which he could have no con-
nexion whatever.

Mr. NAPIER said he had many Roman Catholics
amongst his conscientious supporters, and by these he
had been requested to Oppose the Bill.
Mr. MACGREGOR (who rose amidst a storm of
impatience) said the religious and domestic sentiments of
Scotland were opposed to the Bill.
Colonel RAWDON urged upon the Committee the
importance of assimilating the law in Ireland with that
of the rest of the kingdom.
Viscount CASTLEREAGH did not think that prin-
ciple ought to prevail against the unanimous feeling of
the Irish people; and as far as he knew, Presbyterians,
ammo Catholics, and what was called the Protestant
Church of Ireland, were all decidedly against the pass-
ing of this Bill.

Mr. FARIZER then withdrew his motion for reporting
progress, and

- •
The Committee divided on Colonel Chatterton's mo-
tion, when there appeired—
For the motion ... 114
Against it . 132
Majority agsiust the motion...-18
The Bill will then understood to pass through Com-
mittee, and the House resumed.
Colonel CHATTERTON gave notice that ho would
move the same thing on the third reading.
Mr. ANSTEY begged to give notice that hr, on the
contrary, would move on ae report, that the Act be
extended to the colonies and all the dominions of her
Majesty.

Mr. S. WORTLEY said, as some discussion might
be expected on the report, he would take a little time
to consider on what day he would move the considera-
tion of it.

THE NEW HOUSE.
On the motion for going into Committee on the
General Board of Health Bill,
Mr. HUME begged to ask a question of the Hon.
Member for Lancaster respeeting their accommodation
in the new House. He wanted to know the meaning of
the extraordinary illumination which he saw proceeding
from the windows. It had given. him a headache—a
thing which he had scarcely ever had in his life. He
really protested against sitting any longer in that House
until some better arrangements were made.
Mr. GREENE rose to reply, when
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member for Mon trose
was out of order. The question before the House was
the order of the day.
The Houle then went into Committee on the
GENERAL BOARD OF HEALTH BILL.
Mr. FORBES moved that the Chairman report pro-
gress, and the gallery was cleared, but no division took
place, and the Bill passed through Committee.
POST-OFFICE CLERKS.
Mr. ANSTEY moved for a copy of the memorial
from the clerks of the money order department ad-
dressed to the Postmaster-General, in September, 1849,
and referred to in their petition which was presented on
the 7th instant, and printed with the votes; and of any
correspondence between them and the Postmaster-Ge-
neral on the subject of the said memorial.
Mr. HAYTER said there was not the slightest objec-
tion on the part of the Post-office authorities to produce
the memorial, but he did not think the House ought to
form into a court of appeal with regard to the details
of the management of the Post-office, and should leave
the matter in the hands of the Government.
Lord D. STUART supported the motion, believing
that those parties were very much underpaid, and that
their case was deserving the coneideration of that House.
He hoped their grievances would be looked into by the
heads of the department, and that they would obtain the
redress they were entitled to.

Mr. AGLIONBY hoped the House would be of
opinion that thegion. Member for Youghal was entitled
to the information he asked for.
Sir G. GREY said the House ought to be very cau-
tious in admitting appeals of this sort; but on the under-
standing that the Hon. Member intended to found a
motion on the subject, it was for the House to say
whether the memorial was necessary for that purpose
or not.

Major BLACKALL observed that the House was
very properly a House of appeal in all cases of grievance,
and the present case was one which they might very
fairly and properly entertain. -
After some conversation, the House divided—
For the motion ... 10
Against it
„..
Majority ...
The motion was accordingly lost.
PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND.
Mr. ADDERLEY moved "That the dispatches lately
received from the Lieutenant-Governor of Prince Ed-
ward's Island be laid on the table of the House; also
copies of correspondence which passed at the commence
meet of the year between the House of Assembly of that
colony and the Secretary of State for the Colonial De.
pertinent."

-54

Mr. HAWES said the pspers moved for would by
no means convey the information which it was the in-

tention of Earl Grey at the proper time to lay before the
House on the subject. At the present time the produc-
tion of the papers would be attended with serious injury
to the interests of the colony, and he could not accede to
the motion.

Mr. ADDERLEY said it would then be his duty to
present the petitions which had reached him on the sub-
ject, and make a motion upon them.
The motion was withdrawn.
The other orders or the day were then disposed of,
and the House ,adjourned at a Quarter before Two
o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS;- June 13.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
PETITIONS.

Lord MONTEAGLE presentcd a petition from
bankers and merchants of Aberdeen, and a petition from
Arbroath, complaining of the arrangements of the Aber-
deen Railway Company.
Lord CAMPBELL presented a similar petition from
Cupar, in the county of Fife.
SMYTH-EASTERN RAILWAY.

On the motion that the South Eastern Railway
(Amendment of Acts, Power to raise Additional Capital)
Bill be read a third time,
Lord MONTEAGLE presented a petition from Mr.
Josiah Wilson, a shareholder in the company, com-
plaining of certain malpractices on the part of the direc-
tors, and praying to be heard at the bar of the House
against the present measure. The petitioner alleged
that the directors had jobbed in their own shares with
the funds of the company, and as the prayer of the peti-
tioner could not be acceded to, the Noble Lord proposed
to insert a clause giving the Board of Trade power to
appoint an auditor, should the majority of the proprie-
tors consent to that course.
Lord BROUGHAM said he should certainly resist
the proposal of his Noble Friend.
Lord REDESDALE gave it as his opininion that to
insert such a clause as that proposed by the Noble Lord
would be contrary to the standing orders of the House.
Lori MONTEAGLE insisted that they bad no right,
to give this company power to raise 1,200.000/. more
without taking some guaiantee that the money should
not be applied to jobbing purposes.
Lord REDESDALE said the insertion of the clause
would be tantamount to throwing the Bill out altogether.
Lord MONTEAGLE reminded their Lordships that
two years ago Sir Robert Peel inserted a similar clause
in the Bill of a railway company who had been guilty of
similar mal-practices. He moved the adjournment of
the debate.

Lord BROUGHAM contended that there had been
no jobbing in the instance complained of by the peti.
'inners. The transaction was au open and honourable.
one, notwithstanding the money came out of the funds of
the company, and it ultimately proved beneficial to the
shareholders.

Lord HATHERTON said the transaction in fact was
supported by the shareholders themselves, who agreed to
it in general meeting assembled.
Ede GREY said, al,hough be approved of the spirit
and intention of the clause, he thought it was too late to
introduce it at this stage of the measure, and he must
therefore resist it.

After some further discussion the amendment was
negttived, and the Bill was read a third time and passed.
THE COURT OF CHANCERY (COUNTY PALA-
TINE OF LANCASTER) BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed after a
protest from Lord CAMPBELL, who considered the Bill
wholly unnecessary.
DELIVERY OF LETTERS ON THE SUNDAY.
Lord BROUGHAM having alluded to the late ad-
dress of the House of Commons on the subject of the
Post.3ffice—which was carried in a thin House by a very
slight' majority—and to the reply to that address com-
municated by Lord John Russell to the Legislature,
begged leave to ask her Majesty's Ministers whether
letters, though they might not be sent out of the Post-
office on Sunday, might not be delivered on that day to
those who applied at the Post-office for them between
the hours of Divine service.
The Earl of MINTO—No ; they are to be locked up
in the box.

Lord BROUGHAM—Then I hope that the people of
England, and especially the merchants of Liverpool and
other great towns, will learn in the next six months the
consequences of this order.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH presented a petition
from the city of Exeter against the Irish Franchise Bill
On the motion of the Martinis of LANSDOWNE the
Sheriff of Westmorland Appointment Bill was read a
second time.

THE UNIVERSITIES.
Lord MONTE AGLE then rose to move for copies of
letters addressed by the First Lord of the Treasury to
the Universities of Oxford tied of Cambridge on the
Subject of the issue of a commission of inquiry; and
copies of any resolutions or communications entered into
or made on behalf of those Universities in relation to the
same subject. He did not see that any objection could
be made to, or that any inconvenience could arise from,
their produelion• but, in moving for them, he thought it
necessary, in order to prevent any misconception, to state
the, grounds on which he wished to bring them under
their Lordships' consideration. He should be sorry to be
understood as inferring that the Government, in advis •
ing the issue of this commission, bad , been actuated
by any ndverse feelings to the Universities. On
the contrary, he believed they intended to pro-
mote the interests of those mai of learning,
and the cause of education generally throughout this
country. But while he gave them credit for such in-
tentions, he might be allowed to doubt whether the
course taken by them at this time, and under present
circumstances, was really calculated to promote that ob-
ject.—(Re Jr.) This measure originwed, purely and
exclusively, in the dec4ioa ,or the, Government them-
selves, without any communication whatever with any
university authority at Cambridge. ludeed, from the
letter of his Illustrious Friend the Chancellor of that

university, it appeared that he was entirely unaware of
any intention of the issue of this commission until after
the Government had declared their intention to Parlia-
ment; and it did not appear from the observations of
the Noble and Gallant Duke the Chancellor of the Uni-
versity of Oxford, that he was at all aware of the inten-
tion entertained by the Government, It would throw a
great difficulty in the way of working a commission of
this kind, that those whose interests were the most
affected should have been left entirely in the dark on
the subject. In both the universities of late years a
prudent, and efficient spirit of improvement had been
manifested. He should deceive their Lordships if he were
to say that that-spirit was represented by a numerical ma-
jority of the body of the Universities; but if those who
had been active, both at Oxford and Cambridge,
did not carry with them numerically a majority of the
governing body, yet that body did carry with them so
great a weight of character, so much respectability in
point of university station, such high acquirements in
the scale of literary distinction, that they had been able
to obtain more than could have been anticipated. In
Cambridge the progress of reform had been considerable,
and he thought it only just to stet, what had been done,
what was now in progress, and the principles on which
the improvements had been effected, because he found
that many persons who had discussed the question were
either unacquainted with what had been done, or had
shut their eyes to the filets. Complaints had been made
that the course of study was too restricted and too con-
fined; that they had set aside the larger objects brought
under consideration in the lectures of the professors, and
confined themselves almost exclusively to those peculiar
studies to which that University devoted its highest re-
wards—namely, mathematical studies. But in 1812 a cor-
responding system of honours was introduced connected
with classical examinations. It was to a certain
extent resisted, or viewed with a certain
degree of disfavour. But be asked their
Lordships, whether at this moment the honours
of the classical tripos were not looked to with as much
ambition and eagerness as were the honours connected
with mathematical knowledge in former times. In the
college appointments, in the whole college course of
study, in the administration of rewards, those who took
the highest honours obtained positions in the Univer-
sity. That system had taken root, and was, now from
day to day, advancing.
These improvements bad begun
from the appointment of his late Royal Highness the
Duke of Gloucester as Chancellor of the University.
The first prize he established was one for English com-
position. In 1848, Cambridge University opened an
entirely new career to university distinction for all pupils
of the University, by establishing two great courses for
the moral and natural sciences, But it was said that
nothing in the way of reform could be expected from
the colleges. That be (Lord Monteagle) denied.
Trinity College had reformed the whole of its statutes
and consolidated all the amendments that had been
made, in a natural way—that is to say, by the recom-
mendation of the Crown as visitor, and by the assent
of the Crown to the reformation in the statutes of
the foundation. The rival college of St. John had
done the same. In Pembroke, Mr. Pitt'e college, the
whole of the statutes had been revised; and they had
also been revised in the same manner, that was, with the
consent of the Crown, in Jesus; while in Peterhouse
certain restrictions had been removed by royal letter.
In the University itself a revision of its own statutes
had been under consideration for upwards of seven
years; it was now nearly completed—it was hoped it
would be ready this year; and then it would be? carried
into effect unless the pressure contemplated by the com-
mission changed the purpose of its promoters. But the
University had done:still more—it had made a mere for-
mality a reality, as in the case of a degree of medicine,
for which a strict examination was now required in che-
mistry and natural science generally. It had also founded
several prizes. He argued, therefore, that the commis-
sion was undertaken without any adequate appreciation
of what was in progress in the University of Cambridge
at least, and he would also add, without any perfect com-
prehension of the difficulty and delicacy of the
task imposed upon it. There was a further fact
which should be impressed on the House—those con-
cerned in these movements for improvement withia the
University did not, he was sorry to nay, include the
numerical majority. What then, he asked, would be
the effect of the commission? Would it not add to their
difficulty, and check the. march of improvement? He
(Lord M.) did not for a moment mean to say that the
whole question of university reform could be carried
without the aid of Parliament; but how different would
that aid be appreciated. when 'forced upon a reluctant
body to what it would be when sought fir by themselves.
The commission had no compulsory power of examina-
tion. A groat delusion prevailed as to the wealth of the
Universities. As far as regardedtambridge, he could
state thatit had not the means to enclose its botanical
garden, or the money to pay for stationery laid on the
table of the Senate house on a late occasion. So much
for its wealth, But it was urged that the Universities
were indebted to the public taxation. How. was the
fact? The Chancellor of the Exchequer received
every year some 3.000/. or 4,000/. for stamps on de-
grees; while the Government only gave about 8001.
a-year as salaries to professors. These allegations
did not, therefore, constitute a sufficient ground to
issue a commission; and he earnestly entreated the
Government not to change their minds, but to delay
the issue until the appropriate time arrived for it, that
was to say, when an application to that effect came from
the Universities. Its issue at the present time would, he
was satisfied, impede the progress of further improve-
ments, and retard rather than accelerate university re-
form. The Noble Lord then moved for the papers above
enumerated.
Tie Earl of CARLISLE, on the part of the Govern-
ment, had no objection to the production of the papers
in question, and in doing so he confirmed the statement
of his Noble Friend that neither his Noble Friend at the
head of the Government, or any Member of the Govern-
ment as a body, in any steps which tbey contemplated,
or had taken, or should take in respect to the commis-
sion on the Universitiesowere actuated by other than the
most respectful feelings and the best intentions towards
the learned bodies ; indeed, he should sadly belie his
own sentiments, and be deeply ungrateful for sone
of the happiest days of his life, if he was actuated
by a contrary feeling. Her llisjesty's Government
were not less indisposed than he was himself to under-
value or ignore the many useful improvements in pro-
gress by the Universities, adopted, or in the course of
adoption, and be hoped that the commission might not
be without it use in recognising and calling attention to
them, as well as in promoting them and encouraging
those by whom they were premoted, the more especially
as the Noble Lord had truly stated that many of these
improvements were not effected without resistance, and
that the party of progress was the party in a numerical
minority. The expression of approval and sympathy
on the part of competent persons without the Universi-
ties could not fail to give strength and aid to those who
undertook the task of rational improvement within. He
(Earl of Carlisle) knew that• the Universities were the
subject of much unmerited censure; and he was also
aware that it would be urged that the commission gave
the stamp of her Majesty's Government to that
censure. But that was a reason for inquiry all the more,
because the more any misconception prevailed on a
subject the more useful it was to let in the light
of day on it. It was obvious to every one
that the charters and statutes of the Universities—formed
as they were, under the Ylantageneti and Tudors, anti
modified only in the time of Laid—were not sufficient
for modern times. Indeed, in some respects they were
—at least some of tlaema-rendered obsolete by the
change of manners as much as by the change of re-
ligion of the country, and could therefore only be dealt
with in practice by an evasion. To divert a charter
from its original purpose was,
he admitted, a delicate as
well as a difficult task; but it seemed to him that the
most useful part of the labours of the commission would
be, in conjunction with the resident members of the
Universities, to decide in what respect application
should be made to the Legislature for those modi-
fications and alterations required by the changed
circumstances of the times in the existing laws of
those bodies. It had been urged that modifications
might be made by those bodies themselves ; but it
was obvious to every one that such a course would
not satisfy those persons who were opposed to the
present constitution of the Universities. Whatever might
be thought of the proceedings of the Government, how-
ever, they disclaimed any disrespect, ill-feeling, or slight
towards the Universities. If any neglect appeared to
have been shown to the Universities, or to their distin-
guished Chancellors, no one would regret it more than
his Noble Friend at the head of the Government; at all
events, those illustrious individuals who were at the head
of both held such a high position in the eyes of the world
as to make wilful disrespect to them utterly impossible.
A commission had issued under a late Government to
inquire into the condition of chapters and ecclesiastical
dignities, and the Right Rev, and other distinguished
persons appointed under it afforded in their names a
to
wereca appointedr a
ter,
wres e r v on
actuated
e
sufficient guarantee that no disrespect whatever wet in-
tended. So with respect to the commission on the Uui-
versities. Whatever r nnr
it, the Government would take care that they were men
lgti
affectiong for the Universities, and the
bwytio a , besides
most
filial e their htendency of whose objects should be to co-operate with
general character, he
the best and most enlightened men in these learned
bodies.
Earl POWIS complained that the commission had
been issued,- not as a substantive measure, but as the
supplement of a periodical motion in the other House,
the object of which was to &dant Dissenters to the go-
vernment of the Universities. The commission would
interfere with property on a large scale as regarded the
power of bequest, and the First Minister of the Crown
was now about to destroy the arrangements of the en •
cient donors, which the founders had sacrificed their
property to create. The Noble Earl had alluded to the
ecclesiastical commission issued by Sir R. Peel, but he
could not have chosen a preceient more justly nalculited
to strike terror and create hostility in the Universities,
for that commission had destroyed the property of the
bishoprics and chapters, and it was 110 W intended to be
followed up by a Bill to divert episcopal revenues to pa-
rochial purposes, thoisgh chapters were still allowed to
hold pluralities. That was not the way to procure
amity on the part of the Government towards toe Uni-
versities.

_.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with his Noble Friend
uwahtoruse enpotkhelatbo suppositiontbuto
ne,t
ofhut thenot hiug could be more
Issuing
of the tom-
mission arising from want of r.-Spect or of kindly feeling
towards the Universities.—(Hear.) Nevertheless,. hw
tmoilsitiaskNiobbluet, his letter
thought. the commission a very great error, a very great
Fusriheinsdre(athsoeprihlikdebroefavirstealieinigil),
which
had been made public, and which their Lordships had
probably .seen,, he need bardiy trouble the House with
his opinion, and argument, and protest.
He felt bound
to write that letter us the head of University College.
London, though he acted entirely of his own accord, and
without any communication with his Council, and pur-
posely avoided snaking them responsible by any previous
communication. But he had another reason for writing
it—the part he bad taken for 35 years in inquiries of

NATAL TELLIGEN CE.
The Ajax, 60, Captain Quinn, was to have sailed
from Portsmouth on 'Wednesday evening for Cork,
touching at Plymouth, but the strong westerly gale
(which still blows) prevented her—she has orders to
sail when the wind moderates. The Sprightly went
out to her yesterday with some supernumeraries for
Plymouth.
The Hecate, steam-sloop, went out from Ports-
mouth to try her engines and machinery after re-
pairing, yesterday, but something being amiss she
came in again, and will be again tried in a few days.
The Elfin was brought on the graving .slip of
Portsmouth on Wednesday, and came off again the
same tide.
Yesterday Major-General Lord Frederick
Fitz-
clarence, and staff; with Colonel John Owen, pro-
ceeded to Cumberland Fort to inspect the Royal
Marine Artillery, under Colonel Commandant Gib-
sane; the usual gun target, shell, and rocket practice
was gone through. Colonel Gibsone and the officers
of the corps entertained, at a splendid lunch, Lord
Frederick Fitzclarence and staff, Colonel Owen, and a
large party of officers.
APPOINTMENTS.
Clerk—Timothy Clinch, to the Fisgard.
Lieutenant—George W. Towsey, to the Sealark.
Midshipmen—Edward Tongue and Edward W.
Dillon, to the Sealark.
Second Master—Samuel Brallon, to the Illus-
trious.

Naval Cadet—Edward Adeane, to the Phaeton.
THE EFFECT OF SHOT ANI) SHELL ON THE

HULL OF IRON VESSELS.
The first experiment for testing the effect of shoe
and shell on the sides of iron vessels took place on
'Wednesday at Portsmouth, under the superintend-
ence of Captain Chads, on board the Excellent. The
Commander in-Chief, Admiral the Hun. Sir Bladen
Cape], Rear-Admiral Prescott, and a number of naval
and military officers, were on board her.
A large butt, being a copy of a section of the
Simoom's main deck, had been made in the dockyard,
representing the two sides of an iron vessel, each
side of the strength and consistency of one of the
large iron steam-ships. This butt was erected on
the mud, at a distance of 460 yards from the Excel-
lent, and the practice took place at high water from
guns of several calibre, and various charges of pow-
der, both shot anti shell, were fired.
At intervals between the firing boats visited the
butt to examine the effects of particular shot on the
iron work. It was fuund that on the side that
the shot entered a large and tolerably round hole was
made in the iron plate, the circumference being
much jagged and the edge turned inward. On the
opposite side where the shot passed out the hole was
larger and also jagged, the edge of the hole turned
outwards, with occasionally some rivets started. Some
of the shot on entering, and from striking against
angles of the iron ribs, were broken in pieces, the
fragments passing out at the opposite side, making
holes of various sizes and formations. Shells also
appeared to have a destructive effect on the ironwork
in creating splinters, and the pieces of shell passing'
out through the plates at the opposite side, the off.
side in all cases suffering most. Of course neither
shot, aor shell, nor grape, nor canister, would
lodge in iron vessels, as would be the case in
wooden vessels. To test the effect of the splinters
inside the vessel, a alight plank bulkhead had been
run up between the iron sides of the butt. This was
found entirely shattered, and shows clearly how dread-
fully the crew of an iron vessel would have suffered,
more especially when it is considered that the splin-
ters from the jagged iron inflict the most dangerous
description of wound, even a alight one predisposing
the party hurt to tetanus or lock-jaw, and otherwise
being most difficult to cure. From the experiments
made yesterday, we conclude that iron vessels are not
fit to cope with vessels of wood, neither are they fir
to go against batteries, for it is now tolerably certain
that the fatal effects of every shot received on beard
would be quadrupled by the tendency of the iron-
work to splinter, fly off, and destroy everything in
the immediate vicinity of the concussion, more espe-
cially when the ball itself is also likely to split and
break to pieces likewise. The experiments were
further tested to-day by Captain Chads, and instead
of the plain bulkhead, canvas is stretched across,
which will show the effect of the splinters and broken
shot more effectually than boards. Shot and shell
were both fired to-day, and Captain Chads will
continue the test till he can make a satisfactory
report.