The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

the increase of the new police. But, if the speech of the
Hon. Member for Reading was extraordinary, that of
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Chippenham was
still more so. *The one represented the civil reasons in
support of the estimates; the other the military reasons.
The Hon. aad Gallant Member for-Chippenham had
said that we kept up a large force in the colonies be-
cause the people were discontented with the mode of
government there, and in Ireland because the people
wese starving. The Hon. and Gallsnt Member's receipt
for the misery at Kilrush would probably be an addi-
tional regiment!—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant
Member seernel to represent the British soldier in the
farce, stiking his breast and appealing to the honour of
the British army, amidst the ready cheers of the
audience. He (Mr. Osborne) believed the British
soldier to be as honourable, but not more so
than any other British gentleman ; aed he
confessed that he, for one, would not be disposed to
ask the counsel of the British soldier as to what reduc-
tion should be made :in his profession, as his mind was
as liable to be warped as any ether person s. Was not
the abolition of flogging resisted from year to year by
the members of the military profession? and if it had
not been for the labours of a civilian (he m( ant the Hon.
Member for Mon ruse), what syst2m of punishment
should we have had in the army at the present moment?
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Gallant Member for
Chippenham had expressed great indignation at the
lion. Member for the Wee. Riding comparing our mili-
tary system with that of Austria or Prussia. Had the
lion. and
_Gallant Member forgotten that our military
system was stolen from Prussia—that our infantry was
manceevred upon the Prussian system? Tne lion. and
Gallant Member also said that it was notorious the army
was under-ufficered in India —forgetting, or not know-
ing., that it was not the Que'en's troops but the Coin-
paey's troops that were in this situation. His Hon. Friend
the Member for Montrose had said that there was some-
thing in the Minisierial benches that seemed to con-
taminate the men that sat on them, lie (Mr. Osborne)
did agree with him in that. Ho believed there was a
power, independent rf the Ministsriat benches, which
would hinder any Government, wbe ther Whig or Tory,
from carrying out reform in the army, and that that
power proceeded from the Horse Guards.—(Elea-, hear.)
He believed that the Noble Lord at the head ef the Go-
vernment, with the best ietentions, and the Right Hon.
Gentlemen the Secretary at War, with the best know-
ledge of the subject, would not be allowed to carry their
policy into execution while the present system of ma-
naging the army prevailed. Why was not the Horse
Guards, the Ordnance Department, and the Commis-
sariat under the Treasury all combined and placed under
one head? Why was there not a Minister of War ap-
pointed with a seat in the Cabinet, or, if necessary, a
seat in that House, as was recommended by the Com-
mission which sat in 1837? It was evident that
such a system would introduce not only greater vigour,
but greater economy hit.) the army. It was well
known that the Secretary at War was only a finance
Secretary; he had no more power to carry out any re-
form than other Hon. Members, and it was therefore
unfair to fall foul of him in that House for not doing
so. The fault was not in him but in the sys-
tem; and so long as the present system Was kept up he
held that, with all deference to the Hon. Member (Mr.
Stanford), who was so enamoured with the novel manner
in which the estimates were drawn up—though it was
precisely the same as had been in use for thirty or forty
years past—so long would there be profuse expenditure.
—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for the West
Riding had made one assertion in which he (Mr. Os-
borne) took leave to differ from him—viz , that the army
was kept up for the benefit of the aristocracy.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN—What I said was, that such was the
assertion of the Liverpool Financial Reform Association.
Mr. OSBORNE—Oht the association that published
several ignorant tracts.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Osborne)
could assure his Hon. Friend, and the Liverpool Finan-
cial Reform Association too, that he had taken particular
pains on the subject, and he found that the great prc-
portion of officers in one branch of the service—the
heavy Dragoons—were the sons of capitalists who bad
made their money in a fair and honest way—(llear)
and that a great proportion of the officers of the infantry
were sons of very poor men, who had gone into the
army as a profession. He maintained, then, that with
one or two exceptional regiments, the working blanch
of the army was not kept up for the benefit of
the aristocracy.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, however,
that the Hon. Member for the West Riding was per-
fectly justified in his assertion with respect to the dis-
proportion which existed between the number ef officers
and men. He found that for an army of 100,000 men
there were nine field-marshals, 58 generals, 67 lieute-
nant-generals, and 174 major-generals—a staff much
greater than that of the French army of 450,000 men—

(Hear, hear)—with half a million of national guards into
the bargair. The Hon. Memter for Glasgow (Mr.
Macgregor), who had come out on this occasion in his
new character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
who would not have them reduce anything, had said that
the French army cost double what ours cost; but he had
omitted to mention that that included the whole of the
ordnance, while ours did not.—(liear, hear.) He must
say, too, that he thought it unfortunate that the general
officers were paid from the profits of the clothing estab-
lishment.—(Hear, hear.) He considered that a fixe I
annual payment would not only place the officers in a
more respectable position, but might be the means of
saving 40,000/. a year.—([Tear, hear.) It was curious
to notice the difference between the cost of clothing in
the various departments of the army. The clothing of
a private of the line, he found, cost 21, 65., the foot
guards 3/. 155., the cavalry of the line 41., the
Blues Si. 45., the Lifo Guards 81. 13s. 3d , being more
than double the, co.t in the cavalry of the line. . And
such dresses as they were too ! Cuirasses in which he
was sure the men could never strike a blow, and enor-
mous boots in which even their large bodies were lost.

—(Laughter.) The clothing of the French troops
amounted to 11. 13s. 2d. per man; that cf the Prussian
troops to 11. 153. 101; while that of the EngHsh troops
was not less than 31., more than double that of the
French, and almost double that of the Prussian.—(Hear,
hear.) So long, however, as the system of the colore's
clothing the men coainued, se long would this mons-
trous discrepancy also continue. If the Secretary at
War had any interest at all at the Horse Guards,
which he did not believe him to have more than
any corporal of the army—(A laugh)—he ought to
set about the entire alteration of this system.
His Honourable Friend had told the House that the
Austrian cavalry regiments bad not half the number
of officers, as compared w:th men, that the English regi-
ments had; and such was the fact. Yet, was the former
inferior to thnt of the latter? Very far from it
indeed; on the contrary, the Austrian regiments
could do things in the way of manoeuvring that we
had no notion of in this country. In an English cavalry
regiment what did he find? That there were actually
one officer to every seven men on dismonnted parade,
and one officer to every six men on mounted parade,
whereas in Austria one officer and one non-commissioned
officer were found amply sufficient for every forty men.
—(Cheers.) Ho wanted to know why the same propor-
tion would not be found equally efficient here.—(Hear,
hear.) Then there was this agency charge of 32,0001.
per annum. Ho wanted to know what this was conti-
nued for, not to ask why it had ever been established?
The Indian army, where it might be supposed an agency
was wanted, if anywhere, bad no agency establishment.
This 32,000/. was money actually
wasted. He would
suggest, further, that much good might be done, and a
considerable saving effected, by appointing half-pay
officers to situations in the Adjutant-General's office, the
Quartermaster-General's-office, and other similar esta-
blishments. Much less salaries would suffice than
were paid to the present class of officials, whom he
found retiring after 40 years' service upon a
pension of 7001. a year, while general officers
who had actually served their country for 40 years,
many of them perhaps occupied in the field against
the enemy, and who, moreover, had paid in hard cash for
their promotions 4,000/. or 5,0001., were fain to retire
upon 4001. per annum—(Hear,
hear) —and as to the
purchase-money of commissions and promotions, let him
observe that the Right Hon. Gentleman had only spoken
of the regulation prices, whereas everybody knew that
the unfortunate officer had to pay at each step a round
sum over and above the regulation price. He was very
glad to hear of the contemplated examination of officers;
it was an examination which would do good in more
ways than one ; for among other things, to educate the
officers would open their eyes more widely to the evil
and injustice of the system of commissions by purchase.
—(Hear, hear.) TT
--e was quite satisfied that the various
modes which he bad indicated fully, a million a year
might be saved. Expecting no good in this direction
from the Committee now sitting up stairs, he should vote
with his Hon. Friend.

Mr. STANFORD said the Hon. Gentleman seemed
to insinuate that there was some particular reason for
his (Mr. Stanford's) baying left the parochial position
to which reference bad been made. What did the Hon.
Gentleman mean to suggest?
Mr. OSBORNE said he had never till that evening
heard of the Hon. Gentleman filling any parochial situa-
tion at all.

Colonel CRATTERTON expressed his regret at the
reduction made in the allowance for gratuities and
medals for meritorious services. lie thought, too, that
the defective accommodation in barracks should be
remedied, for it frequently happened that the ill-con-
ducted soldier was better cared for in prison than the
well-conducted one in barracks. For his own part, with
reference; to', the well-being of the soldier, he was most
happy that flogging had been in great part done away
with, and that they were able to preserve the effective
discipline of the army without having recourse to so de-
grading a punishment; but when Hoe. Gentlemen com-
plained of the private soldier never rising to command in
a regiment, how, he should like to know, was a man,
without any private means of his own to support the ex-
penditure incident to such a position and rank?
Mr. MUNTZ said that so long as we kept our colo-
nies he certainly did not see how we were to reduce our
army. Fur his parr, he said by all means give up the
colonies, since there was no advantage we got from them
in a commercial point of view that wo should not get
much more amply from them if they were independent
of us. Not that he wanted England to cast her colonies
off; no, only if any of them said they were able to stand
on their own bottoms, and would like to leave us, by all
means let us reply, " We are much obliged to you, the
sooner you go the better."—(Laughter.) As it was, he
mug support the Government on this occasion.
Colonel SIBTHORP said he certainly should support
the Government, and if the Government had found it
necessary to aek fur an augmentation of the army, he
should have supported it ; " Cavendo tutus" was his
motto.

Colonel REID said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had stated that he should possibly be able to announce,
in the course of a short time, the nature of the exami-
nation to which officers would be subjected previous to
their promotion. He wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman, 1%23 he prepared to state now what that ex-
amination would be ? If it was to be an examination of a
character such as that lately adopted on the admission of
officers to the service, he should oppose it in every pos-