The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-06 00:00:00

SPANISH AMERICAN BOND-
IIOLDERS.

The following further correspondence between the
Committee of Spanish American bondholders and
Messrs. Lizardi and Co., the Mexican agents, was circu-
lated in the City yesterday:—
" 13, Austinfriars, Aug. 2.
" Gentlemen,—Your letter of the 27th ult., in reply
to mine of the preceding day, was yesterday laid before
the Committee of Spanish American bondholders, and I
am desired to express to you their extreme dissatis-
faction with its contents, and especially with your re-
fusal to furnish the Committee with any information as
to the moneys in hand to meet the dividend now four
months in arrear. _ _

" The Committee desire me to express in the strongest
terms their unanimous opinion that the withholding of
this information is utterly unjustifiable, inasmuch as the
proportion of duties assigned in Mexico for the pay-
ment of the dividends belongs to the bondholders, and
they have consequently a right -to knoW from time to
time the amount of such moneys, and the mode of their
appropriation.
" The Committee need not dwell on the enormous
sacrifices which the bondholders have heretofore made
to meet the convenience of the Mexican Government.
'They had fully expected that in return for those con-
cessions the bondholders would have received from the
Mexican Government and from yourselves that con-
sideration which the circumstances of the ease called for
and required.
" The Committee trust, therefore, that you will, on
further deliberation, furnish the particulars requested in
my letters of April 23 and the 27th ult.—l am, &e.,
" G. R. ROBINSON, Chairman.
" Messrs. F. de Lizardi and Co."
" 26, Austinfriars. Aug. 3.
" Stry—We have to acknowledge the receipt of your
letter of yesterday, addressed to us on the part of the
Committee of Spanish American bondholders.
" As regards the first part of your communication, we
have no other reply to make than to refer you to our
letter of the 27th of July.
" Respecting the latter part, wherein you allude to the
concessions made by the bondholders, we beg to assure
you that we are fully sensible of their importance; and
that the same are duly appreciated in the proper quar-
ter is, we think, sufficiently proved by the great sacri-
fices made by the Mexican Government, in the midst of
very trying financial difficulties, to meet its engagements
with its creditors.—We remain, &e.,
" F. DE LIZARD' and CO.,
" Per pro. M. J. de Lizardi.
" G. B. Robinson, Esq."

- -
PRIMITIVE CHURN.—The wife of a farmer at
Hougham, Stamford, saves herself the labour of churn-
ing by the following peculiar contrivance. She ties up
her cream in a linen cloth, over which she places a piece
of print, and buries the whole in a damp place in the
garden for twenty-four hours • She then takes it up, and
turns the cream which by this time is in the shape and
consistency of a pudding) into a bowl, and by stirring it
with a wooden spoon the butter quickly separates from
the butter-milk, and is said to be sweeter than that pro-
duced by the ordinary method. What induced her to
resort-to this extraordinary system she states to be, that
one of her neighbours having children troubled with
sores, applied to them the ancient remedy of a salve made
of buried cream ; by stirring it she perceived that this
produced an oil similar to butter, and she thought that,
if it would do in a small quantity, it would in a larger.
This is rather a more primitive system than the one pur-
sued in Chili, where they place the cream in leather bags
on asses, and trot the animals about until it is changed
into butter.

The Anti-Catholic and riotous feeling is particu
larly strong among the pretty women of Southwark.
We note that they even go so far in their exhibition of
it as to utterly eschew now the use of bishops and car-
dinals, and display a pecular partiality for mob-caps.
Sad creatures.—New Yoh Herald.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Avast 5.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
The House resumed at Five o'clock.
NOTICES OF MOTION.

Mr. lIAWES gave notice that next session he should
move for certain returns relating to savings banks. Also
for a Committee to inquire whether the 'loyal Academy
had been favourable or prejudicial to the progress of the
fine arts in this country ; and also for a Committee to in-
quire into the proceedings of the Trinity•house, at Dept-
ford and Stroud, aikid how far they had carried out
the recommendation of that House made in 1834.

Lord WORSLEY gave notice, that next session he
should move for leave to bring in a. Bill to fucilitatE- the
inclostire of commons.
PRIVATE BILLS.
Mr. GLADSTONE then rose, for the purpose of
bringing forward the motion of which he had given
notice some days ago, and which he hoped would meet
with the general approbation of the House. The mo •
tion was founded on the recommendations of the
Select Committee on Railways. It went beyond these
recommendations because the functions of the Select
Committee were confined to Railway Bills. It was
found desirable to apply the same principle which had
been applied to Railway Bills to private Bills of
other descriptions. The present measure was in order
to establish greater certainty and uniformity with re-
spect to the law on this subject, and to make
it more acceptable and intelligible to the public.
It would also convenience those who introduced Bills
into the House, because it would enable them to shorten
those Bills. The clauses of the model Bill were about
350, and all Railway Bills which passed that House
contained from 300 to 400 clauses. The expense of
printing and engrossing those Bills cost a considerable
sum oemoney. He did not propose that those Bills
should pass into a law during the present session.— ,
(Laughter.) He would not have the courage to make
such a proposition at the present period of the session ;
but it was desirable to have them printed, so that the
attention of the parties, Parliamentary agents, and
others interested in these Bills, might have their
attention drawn to them. By having the Bills printed,
they would, if susceptible of improvement, have the
best advice and the soundest suggestions on the
subject, and at the opening of the next session they
could pass those Bills at once, so that the private Bills
of the next session might derive the advantage of the
improvement. The advantage of those Bills would be
that instead of consisting of 300 or 400 clauses, the
number of clauses would now be reduced to a moderate
number of intelligible ones. He would now state what
those Bills contained. The three Bills lie proposed to
lay on the table of the House comprised the whole of
the model Bill, as to its substantial enactments. But
they broke up the subject matter of it into three parts,
because it had reference to three classes of under-
takings. The first Bill he proposed was a Bill which
would apply, when it became a general Act, to all pri-
vate Bills that might be introduced into the House
for the purpose of incorporating trading companies.
In the second, he intended to include all those
provisions with respect to companies not merely seeking to
be incorporated, but requiring compulsory powers to pur-
chase and hold lands. This Bill would include railway,
harbour, canal, and gas Bills, which require compulsory
powers. With regard to the third Bill, that would be
still more restrictive in the range of private Bills,
to which it would be applicable. This Bill would
specifically correspond with the recommendation of the
Railway Committee. It would be applicable in its pro-
visions to Railway Bills, in respect to those features
which belonged to them exclusively, and not in common
with other Bills for the execution of public works.
Having described the general purview of those Bills,
he had to say that in the first Bill, he did not
mean to propose anything worth mentioning.
except what was already in the model Bill. In the
second Bill he proposed to introduce an enactment which
had been frequently recommended to Government—
namely, the introduction of an exceptional provision
in the present law which provides for the compensation
for lands by reference to a jury. Now he proposed
that where the value of the land in question was
not more than a certain amount-1,0001., the
parties might have the option of settling the question by
arbitration. He did not take it front the jury as a matter
of course, but it would be optional for either of the parties
to remove it from a jury and refer it to another tribunal.
It happened, singularly enough, that the proposition had
often been made to them both from railway companies
and from landed proprietors, that they should be allowed
to submit these small valuations to arbitration. He, there-
fore, proposed to insert in the Bill a proposition to
this effect. In the third Bill he proposed to add a
second proposition, giving a discretionary power to
the Government and the Board of Trade, of allow-
ing certain deviations in engineering works from the
prescribed models, in cases where it was proved
this could be done with increased advantage to the
public, and without any detriment to private rights.
In consequence of the advanced state of science, the
estimates for public works could now be made
with greater accuracy than they could be
a few years ago. Another very important
matter he proposed to include, was a general provision
with regard to what was called the equal rates clause.
At present there was not a perfect uniformity of privi-
lege as between the different railway companies
ao to the power of varying their charges.
Some companies had no power of varying
the rates of their fares at all ; others had the power to do
so, provided the rate was made uniform throughout the
whole of the company's line. That clause was
now subject to some ambiguity. They could not
devise a clause that should exactly define the
rate in all cases, but it was obviously a subject of great
importance and great difficulty. Sometimes it was for
the interest of the public that there should be a power
of varying the rates. At present, in some cases,
it might be varied, but only to a rate that should be
equal and uniform all along the line, though it might
be more advantageous to have a lower rate along one
part of the line than along another. He therefore pro-
pos•A to insert a clause giving power to make these
variations with those exceptions and reservations in cases
which experience had shown ought to be so limited. The
power to vary the rates applied also to the carriage
of goods, but also with certain restrictions. He did not
think there was any other particular which he had to
mention to the House, and he therefore simply begged
to move his propositions, and also to propose a slight
alteration in the title of the Bill.

Arr. HUME wished to know whether any power was
taken by Government of interfering with the accommo-
dation for third-class passengers. It was quite a
disgrace to Parliament to sanction a monopoly
which obliged the poorer class to stand like
cattle, exposed to the air. It was impossible to see a
railroad, without feeling ashamed of this country, as
compared with Belgium and other continental countries.
Mr. GLADSTONE would not say that this might
not be a fit matter for consideration at some other time,
but he did not think it a proper occasion, when they
were discussing the general principles of railway mat-
ters.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME asked whether any power had been given
ill
by
remission which ha d
of beene t
ap
xa
as st d
on inof t
5h apte
1.1
coeuns owfhreen-
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seitnahgeec
was not considered sufficient?
tommodation provided for third-class passengers
Bh
Mr. GLADSTONE said he believed that under this
CliLeave was then given to bring in the Bill.
lal a
ncdelislocrreotifotoahery power that kind was vested in the
Leave was also given to bring in a Bill for consoli-
dating in one Act certain provisions usually inserted in
Acts of Parliament, authorising the taking of lands for
undertakings of a public nature.
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND ACTS.
The House then went into Committee on these
Acts, when
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to move for leave to bring in a
Bill to amend the law relating to the relief and support, in
certain cases, of merchant seamen, their widows, and chil-
dren. The Right Hon Gentleman said the Bill which he
wished to bring in affected the interests and prospects of
a class of men which that House, as well as the whole
country, regarded with feelings of great interest—he
meant the merchant seamen of this country,
a class who were the least disposed to complain.—
(Hear, hear.) They were, it was true, dissatisfied
with the state of the seamen's fund, but his only surprise
was that they were not a hundred times more so. They
did not object to the compulsory payment of a tax out of
their wages, but they did:wish to see the :fund placed on a
more satisfactory footing. He thought that the pensions
that were given to these parties ought to equalised.
The fund was in the nature of an insurance,
and it ought to come back to the subscribers.
It was contrary to all principle to consider it as a cha-
rity. It was not of an eleemosynary charac-
ter. It should be administered as the savings banks
were administered. They ought to make the best
of it. It ought to be uniformly administered. He
thought too much was devoted to the expenses of
management, there was nothing like wilful mismanage-
ment of the fund, but the expense would be less if
it were taken into the hands of a public department.
Then with regard to . the remedy, there was a
great want of data on which to found calculations.
He proposed that a measure should be passed for not
less than seven, nor more than ten years. He also
proposed that the pension should be equalised.
The effect of this would be, that there would
be a uniform system of pensions all over the
country. It was proposed that the pension should
be 41. a year, but the seamen who were sixty-three
years old, and therefore disabled, should be entitled to a
pension of 81. As to widows, it was proposed that in-
stead of continuing their pensions, a gratuity should be
given them. All that he meant to propose was to se-
cure the fund in the best and most efficient manner,
and to give the seamen all the benefits which could pos-
sibly arise from the appropriation of the fund. He would
therefore move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the
laws relating to the relief and support, in certain cases,
of merchant-seamen, their widows, and children.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought there was no class of
her Majesty's subjects more entitled to the considera.
tion of that House and the Government, than the class
proposed to be benefited by the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Lord Sandon, and
Mr. Gladstone, leave was granted to bring in the Bill.
POST-OFFICE.--COMMITTEE OF SECRECY.

Lord SANDON brought up the Report of the Com-
mission of Secrecy on the Post-office. It was laid upon
the table.

The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Seven.

HOUSE OF LORDS, August 5.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Several Bills brought up from the Commons were read
a first time.

TIIE POST-OFFICE INQUIRY.
The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition complaining
of the unconstitutional conduct of the Secretary for the
Home Department. lie did not understand why that

Secretary was under any necessity to be the agent of
Foreign Powers.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he thought
it would be better to postpone any discussion till a future
stage.

The conversation then dropped.
THE CHURCH COMMISSION.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a peti-
tion from holders of Church property, complaining of
certain acts of the Church Commissioners. The Noble
Marquis insisted that the Legislature had no more right
to interfere with property of this kind than with any
other property. He prayed their Lordships to turn
their attention to the subject.
The Bishop of LONDON denied that the Church
Commission hadacted in the manner alluded to by the
Noble Lord. They would have been guilty of a gross
dereliction of duty if they did not make the most of a
property with which that and the other House of Par-
liament had entrusted them. Ile could assure the Noble
Lord that any business transacted by a smaller number
of the Commission was at the earliest period made known
to the greater.

The Duke of RICHMOND said that this being one
of the few Commissions which did not make a report
to enable the country to understand what it was doing,
he was as much in the dark as others. But he knew that
eertain parsons had complained of the severe views taken
by the Commission of its duties, and as the Right Rev.
Prelate courted inquiry into the transactions of that
Commission, he (the Duke of Richmond) hoped that tile
Noble Marquis who had presented this petition would
move for a Select Committee upon the subject.
After a few words from the Marquis of Clanricarde,
Lord Carbery, and Lord Wharncliffe,
The Bishop of EXETER said that as a trustee of a
great public property for a great public purpose, he
trusted he might be allowed to say a few words on the
subject. He considered that his duty as a trustee of
that-property was to make the most of its value, and till
he was told by the authority that delegated him to the
office that the contrary was his duty, he should still fol-
low the line he had laid down for himself when he ac-
cepted the trusteeship.
Lord RADNOR thought that the principle laid down
by the Right Rev. Prelate was a most just one, and he
was astonished that the Noble Marquis and the Noble
Duke upon the cross-benches should have seemed to
doubted the prop iety of it for a moment. He thought
that the Commissioners had a full right to insist upon
the full value of their property ; and further, that they
would be neglecting their duty if they did not do so.
The Earl of BESBOROUGII hoped that the Noble
Marquis would investigate the subject further, and he
would find that the Commission did not at all deserve
the remarks applied to it by the Noble Marquis.
The subject then dropped.
The Criminal Justice (Middlesex) Bill was also read
a third time and passed.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE then moved the resumption
of the debate upon the Railways Bill, and in so doing
took occasion to state that, having fully considered the
effect of the words proposed to be inserted by the Right
Rev. Prelate on the Episcopal bench (the Bishop of
London), he would briefly state what was the course the
Government intended to pursue. The Right Rev. Pre-
late proposed in the 6th clause to insert certain words in
order to prevent what he supposed to be a compulsory
enactment upon railway proprietors to run third-class
trains upon Sundays. Now, the feeling of the House no
doubt was this, that although it might not be desirable
to compel trains to be run on the Lord's-day, yet that it
would be most unjust to the humbler classes of the
public if measures were to be taken under this Act
which would give an undue advantage to the wealthy—
which would compel the convenience of Dives to be con-
sulted, whilst Lazarus was refused permission to travel.
—(Hear, hear.) Now there were certainly two reasons
deserving some weight why the clause, as it at present
stood, should be made the subject of some considera-
tion. In the first place, when this Act was originally
submitted to the proprietors of railways they were not
led to expect that anything would appear in it under
which they would be compelled to run third-class can
riages on Sundays ; and secondly, there could be no
doubt but that if these trains were run, Government
inspectors and other persons must be compelled to
break into their day of rest, in order to superintend and
regulate the traffic. Under these circumstances the Go-
vernment had come to this decision, that nothing should
appear in the Act to compel railway proprietors to run
trains on Sundays ; but that if they did run such trains,
they should be compelled to afford as much accommoda-
tion to the poor as they afforded to the wealthy.—
(Cheers.) They had, therefore, prepared a clause to be
introduced by way of rider to the sixth clause, as
amended by the Bishop of London, and under which
clause it would be enacted that whenever any railway
should run any train whatever upon the Sabbath-day,
to such train, or to one at least of any trains so run on
the day, third •class carriages should be attached. This
amendment would, he hoped, entirely meet the difficulty
which had been raised to the clause.

Lord MONTEAGLE said the point to which he
wished to call the attention of the House was, whether
the accommodation and cost of travelling to the poorer
classes would be equal on the Sunday with other days of
the week. If that were the case, he would not say a
word against the clause, but cordially support it ; but,
if such were not the case, the clause was a nullity.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said he understood it was
the intention of the other House of Parliament to make
the cost of the third-class the same on Sundays as on the
other clays of the week. He could not, conceive there
would be any difference of accommodation.
Lord MONTEAGLE wished the clause were more
distinct. Unless some provision were made by the Le-
gislature, there was little doubt but the railway pro-
prietors would give such scanty accommodation as would
force the travellers to go into the other trains.
The Earl of MINTO said it would give great offence
in Scotland if the trains were not allowed to run on
Christmas Day and Good Friday, for neither day was
observed there. It would not be right for the Legis-
lature to compel their observance, at least to a very in-
convenient extent.

The Bishop of LONDON said he .would word the
amendment thus—" On every week-day, and, in England,
Upon Good Friday and Christmas-day."—(Hear.)
The Earl of DALHOUSIE then expressed a hope
that the amendment, as it now stood, would prove gene-
rally satisfactory. He repeated the opinion of the Noble
Lord the President of. the Council, that no objection
would be offered to any amendment proposed in the
House of Commons, with a view to regulate the fares to
be taken upon the Sundays. With regard, however, to
the description of carriages to be put upon the line, he
thought that was a point that would be rather dangerous
to tamper with, and certainly he was not prepared to go
the same length that other Noble Lords were inclined to
go with reference to that particular. Undoubtedly, it
was true that the third-class system had not hitherto
been carried into full effect by railway proprietors, but
now that the sense of Parliament and of the public was
so decidedly expressed in its favour, he did hope that
the companies would do all in their power to bring that
system into general operation.
The Earl of WICKLOW entirely agreed with Noble
Lords opposite, that it was highly necessary to the prac-
tical working of this clause that the poor should not be
subjected to higher fares or to worse accommodation
upon Sundays than upon any other day of the week.
Ile should think it very fair and proper to introduce
words providing that all third-class carriages should
contain seats, and should be protected by canvass against
the weather.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE asked if the rail-
way companies under this clause would be enabled, if
they pleased, to run on Sundays a third-class train for
third-class passengers only ?
Lord WHARNCLIFFE replied, that as he understood
the clause, it would be perfectly open to the companies to
take that course.

Lord CLANRICARDE---Would they in that case be
obliged to run other trains ?

The Earl of DALHOUSIE thought not.
Lord MONTEAGLE would add the amendment,
" providing the third-class train have covering and seats."
He thought that was so reasonable that nobody could
object to it.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said the poor would have
the superior advantage of travelling at twenty-five miles
an hour on Sundays, instead of twelve miles as on the
week days.
The Marquis of NORMANBY did not think speed
was the chief object of the poor man, who wished to get
out of town for recreation. He wished that the third-
class trains might stop at all the stations at which the
other trains stopped.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE did not agree with the
Noble Marquis, the effect of whose propostil would be to
interfere with private property in a most peremptory
and unreasonable manner, without any great State
necessity for so doing.
Lord COTTENHAM thought that third-class car-
riages should be attached to trains which stopped at every
station on the particular line, and not to those which
ran throughout with but few stoppages.
The Earl of RADNOR did not think the clause was
compulsory ; it only provided that if railway companies
ran trains on a Sunday, they should have third-class car-
riages also. It did not compel them to run the trains on
a Sunday.
Lord CAMPBELLmoved that the debate be adjourned
till to-morrow.

The Bishop of LONDON repeated his objection to the
clause which provided that third-class carriages should
be run on a Sunday. Ile did not wish to prevent rail-
way companies from running such trains, but he could
not be a party to compelling them to do so. He re-
minded their Lordships that although these trains pro-
vided the means of recreation for a great number of per-
sons, yet a great number of servants were obliged to be
engaged in conjunction with those trains, and those
persons, of course, were deprived of their Sabbath day.
The Earl of MINTO said they were about to go to a
vote on the faith that if the Right Rev. Prelate's amend-
ment were carried, a clause providing third-class car-
riages for passengers would be proposed. This clause,
however, no one seemed to understand.

Lord: MONTEAGLE thought their Lordships in
justice ought to place a clause in the Bill, providing that
all third-class carriages should be fitted up with seats,
and should also be covered.

Lord CAMPBELL thought it would be better to put
an end to this kind of burly burly debate—(Laughter)—
and come to a vote on the clause proposed by the Noble
Lord opposite.
The Earl of MINTO opposed the adjournment of the
debate. .

After a short conversation, the amendment was
agreed to.
On a clause introduced by Lord WHARNCLIFFE
being put,
Lord MONTEAGLE proposed, as an amendment,
that the third-class carriages should be provided with
seats, and protected from the weather.

'Their Lordships divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against the amendment
The clause was then agreed to, and the Bill passed.

THE STATE OF THE NAVY.
The Earl of MINTO said he rose in pursuance of the
notice which he had given the other evening, in relation
to the state of the navy. He was quite aware of the
inconvenience of introducing this topic at the present
time, on account of the feverish state of mind which
existed in France. No man could be more anxious than
himself for the preservation of peace, and nothing should
drop from him which was calculated' to give umbrage to
the French Government. In calling their Lordsips'
attention to the state of the navy, he begged to say that
he was no advocate for large naval establishrfients in
time of peace ; but there was a limit to the economy
which should be practised in relation to such matters.
Considering how entirely the power and interests of this
country depended on the navy, it could not be deAr-
able to reduce it to the very low state to which it had
now been brought. The confidence in peace was often
disappointed when its interruption seemed least likely.
In -1792, Mr. Pitt gave it as his opinion that such was
the security for peace in the then circumstances of the
country, that they might count with confidence
on its long continuance ; yet, within a year from that
period, the country entered upon the longest and bloodiest
war in which it had ever been engaged. Other in-
stances, of a similar kind, might be cited ; and he
thought the present aspect of affairs was not such as
should induce them to feel no apprehension. There
existed, unfortunately, on the part of no inconsiderable
number of the French people, a feeling of no friendly
nature towards this country ; and there were questions
then pending which might materially affect English
interests. The events which were now pending en
the coast of Africa were such as it was impossible to
contemplate without, at least, some degree of ap-
prehension. The aspect of affairs throughout the
world was, in fact, such as to require some
degree of preparation on the part of this country.
The alarm which he felt on this subject was greatly in-
creased by the tone assumed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, who, whenever this subject was mentioned, gave
not the slightest intimation of their intention to increase
the existing force, or to put the country into a state in
which it would be enabled honourably to contend with a
foreign Power. He could not doubt that the existence of
large British fleet would have a tendency to avert the
danger.--(Hear hear.) He would now state what was
the present amount of the naval force of this country,
which he certainly thought totally inadequate to the
wants of the country, even in a state of. profound peace,
much more under the circumstances to which he had re-,
ferred. The whole navy of England at that period, as
respected line-of-battle ships, consisted of nine ships. of
these nine ships, two were upon a very distant station,
one was in the West Indies, one was under orders to
sail for the Pacific. They had, a short time ago, three
ships of the line in their home ports ; there was a flag-
ship bearing the flag of the Admiral commanding at
Cork ; and their ninth ship was 'the Mediterranean fleet,
a Mediterranean fleet consisting of one ship-of•the-line!
—(Hear, hear.) Was that, under any circumstances, a
fit state of things ?—(Hear, hear.) Could their Lord-
ships conceive a state of things which could make it to-
lerable that the Mediterranean fleet should be reduced to
a single ship ? He certainly felt that this was a condi-
tion to which the nary ought never to have been re'
duced—a state of insecurity in which the country never
should have been placed. It was true that the Medi-
terranean fleet now amounted to three ships-of-the'
line, having been reinforced by two line of-battle-
ships, in consequence, he presumed, of the state
of affairs in Morocco. Now he did complain of
this state of things as a wanton sacrifice of the safety
and honour of the country. Great complaints were
made in 1838 of the inefficiency of the naval force at
that time; but in reply to such complaints, he showed
that there was as large a force available as could be re-
quired. It was then a time of profound peace, there
was nothing to cause the least anxiety, and yet the force
-was much larger than it was at the present moment,
there being no less than eighteen ships of the line in
commission. A Noble Friend of his (Lord Melville)
complained at that time that though the force might be
sufficient for the service abroad, yet there was not a
sufficient reserve of ships maintained for the defence of
this country. Now at that very time there were sis
ships of the line in our home ports, and two more at Lisbon.
There was the greatest difficulty in getting good sea:
men, England was the last country in the world that
ought not to be provided properly with seafaring wee-
As an instance of the manner in which the English had
been treated by foreign nations, in consequence of their
not having a sufficient fleet, he need only advert to the,
ease of Otaheite, where the Consul of this country had
been treated in the most disrespectful manner. The de'
position of Queen Pomare in Otaheite did not deprive
the Consul of this country of the powers he possessed;
and the course that had been pursued towards him er,
peared a great disgrace to this country. He thougn'
that the acts of violence that had taken place
at Otaheite showed great want of perseverance ort
the part of this country. Did not all these
things show that some protective force ought to be kept
up—one that would ensure respect and not allow this
country to be made the laughing stock of the world? Ile.
was satisfied that the present Ministry of France meant
well, but he was doubtful of its durability. He thought
that the state of the fleets of this country ought to hett.
strengthened in the Mediterranean, for the purpose 0
keeping up the position which the country held in the
scale of nations. The Noble Earl concluded by moving
" a return of her Majesty's ships of war (other than
those reserved for harbour duty) in commission on the
31st of July, 1844 ; and also a return of her West,'
ships of war present at Otaheite from the Ist of t3eptem'
ber, 1842, to the latest period to which advices have bees
.received, specifying the date of the 'arrival there and de-
parture from thence of each ship."
The Earl of HADDINGTON said the Noble Earl bad
impressed on the House the sense of deep responsibility
he felt in bringing forward such a question at an Mon"
venient moment ; he said also that he was quite aware
of the inconvenience of the present time; he then pre;
ceeded to remark in what that inconvenience consisted,
and he then committed himself, on his own showing, .1.1.
great impropriety, by drawing the attention of thlr
Lordships to what he was pleased to call the deplorabg
state of the naval defence of this country. He (Lo
Haddington) was also well aware of the inconvenience,
at the present time, of a discussion of this nature. inconvenience
should therefore make it his duty to abstain from en,'
observations which might at all add to that inconveer.
ence—and he should occupy their Lordships' attende;
for as short a time as possible. He should only ton
'on such parts of the speech of the Noble Earl as
thought necessary for the defence of his departinel
and of her Majesty's Government. The Noble Eli,
said he was not for keeping up an unnecessarily
large naval force; but that making such reduction.
as might be necessary : was a very differee.:
thing from what he was pleased to denominre
a truckling submission. He was most anxious to huff.,
in what this truckling submission consisted. The No.'', ;
Earl did not particularise, he gave no instances of !"..
he merely said, that nothing could justify the reductiode,
of the navy to its present state. Now he (Lord Had
dington) had about him a return of the number of .0(
Majesty's ships in commission in the three yeaareuo
1339, 1840, and 1844, and the result. was t",
the number of line of battle ships in commission in tin
year ending July, 1840, was greater than the number _
commission in the year ending July, 1844. But thee",
the House should remember, that at that time did
were carrying on hostilities in the Mediterranean, an
were bombarding the town of Acre. But this state o;
things had passed away ; this country was at pres`pa
o;
s,
'l3
in a condition of profound peace, and to keep up Of,
thing approaching to that establishment now, would
an extravagance, which however it might be appre,,/reo
by the Admiralty, which never disliked a large I°4
afloat, her Majesty's Government would not besestl,ll;cl
in entertaining. In 1838 the Noble Lord said, they ees,
eighteen line-of-battle ships in commission ; of tb,,eo
eighteen, three were
.guard-ships, which were t''be
manned as fifth-rate frigates, and were, as ships, P,„,„0
sent to sea, perfectly useless. This reduced the eignA
to fifteen ; and these fifteen were of that under-man
class in which the Noble Earl so much delighted'i:
(Hear, hear.) Those ships which were in the Mali°, it
ranean were greatly under-manned ; so much so, that'
was with extreme regret that he heard it deels,'-60
at the time, by no less an authority trot,
Commodore Sir Charles Napier, that if ttb
had then unfortunately gone to war 'li
af
France, we should have been beaten in consequence or
our ships heing under-manned. Again, by the n d
estimates of 1838, it appeared that the whole numheeetba
sailors voted was 23,165. But be it observed
r)
number voted in the present year was 36,000.-01'0e
Now that was a very large peace establishment- of
Noble Lord had insinuated that the present nulnbe r tee
nine ships of the line was the number to whichat be
Government was determined to restrict itself. 13 ao
protested against the Noble Lord's holding out t efer
the intention of the Government—that it would of
be necessary, in time of peace, to exceed nine sh...iPstse
the line. With a great deal of what had fallen &nor
Noble Lord he was disposed to agree, as to the elqic of
ment of line-of-battle ships. Taking a general vl,urtaie
the matter, he thought there ought to be a c`d the
number disposable. The Noble Lord had repeatese in
complaint he made on a former night as to the forma
the Mediterranean; and he (Lord Haddington) 01010
to repeat the answer he had then given to it. The, 0011
Lord said the fleet in the Mediterranean consisted ros
of one line-of-battle ship. Now when they were.islitif sth
found peace with France, and were likely to contworeon,
it was by no means necessary that they should apPrnigt!s
their own force in that sea to what the French„ teen'
consider necessary for their interest there. -P1,13 the
possession of Algeria they had great interest isas
other side of that sea ; their principal port, Touoeneces.
in the Mediterranean, and there was much more lthan
sit y for them to have a considerable force tue,Lo eser,
this country had. If they thought it necessary
cise their ships there, it was no reason foLLlneet.
always keeping there a force equal to it. t`e'rests ;
had to look to was, the protection of Brld,ll,lll,bev
• which s ,as-
bad
and he was not aware of any case in w s 1,0 s
been neglected. The Noble Earl had made out , won'
a most • ira-
liamentary case, thouh he had made
n, to
venient speech—(Hear bear)—not inconvenie touisg
self, for that was but a small consideration.—tiotobert
his motion coupled with. his speech, alleging IfueOnViall's
of ships at present employed as a cause:
against the Government, he should ask their,l,4do etiaa
to decide the question by voting—as he should nie.v.ed
self—against the production of the return re,
for by the Noble Earl. The Nob; land I_o.
not shown that the safety of -rvs, France'
quired more, for they were at peace
aan,,ciciofmwianrg
ewasvenptr
wboaubilde,
,i,tewastits
itnaotlikell but that
shadow_2l. ;d. n;
that event, he contended, this country h!l,r with
_wos
They had thirty advanced ships in ordinary
res t 130,1;1,
their fittings up, and rigging, and stores,
but
_400..;ht
on board—wanting nothing for sea a
_a_.e:rt
the;,
though that could not be done in.rae, had
Nor did
effected in a comparatively short
neglected the new element of destruti.eti
_011_,4-10.teaeorans;
were building new war steamers, and main
bptli
ate progress in erecting steam z

once of the
in relation
are of the
he present
dnd which
'dons than
ing should
mbrage to
Lordships'
;o say that
shrfients in

economy
h matters.
sts of this
be desir-
ich it had
was often
.ast likely.
t such was
ces of the
confidence
from that
bloodiest
Other in-
; and be
,t such at
rt. There
nsiderable
o friendly
questions
t English
?tiding on
ossible to
of ap-
zhout the
ire some

eeknot:i..lll:oer.tsmouth andllymTutl7. He thought be had said ported the child. it was. all right, but they had no ,
tfu3sli to prove that they were not careless of the safety' power of compelling him to do so as the law now. stood.
..c_ountry. The Noble Lord. had thought proper to . One of the great objects of the Bill was to give to a
otaCut on the de;icate subject of tile recent events at woman a summaryb. means of obtaining redress from the
pre, "Ite• He had stated that the French established a father of her child.- Another part of the Bill related to
prat
there in 1842, 'and he blamed the Govern- 1 apprentices, and provisions in that respect had been in-
it. or nut having had a sufficient force there to prevent troduced for the purpose of placing the system upon a
the But respect to thegiving re-
nothing had occurred there previously to call better foundation. Then, with .
wit attention of the Government to that is!and, and lief uncle'? the Bill, he thought it was a great mistake to
en it
the was directed to it, it must be remembered that say that no able-bodied person should receive relief out
distancekarl to that part of the world was enormous, of the workhouse. There was another clause in the Bill
utile Y half the globe. There was not a force there at by which the widow of a pauper could. receive. relief
Iv . but the Talbot arrived there shortly afterwards, from a parish in which she was residing without going.
oil reraained till February, 1843. The Vindictive back to the parish in which. she had hitherto resided.
Atiste When the Talbot left, and remained there till , Toe next point was the appointment of district auditors,
bai;,l!st ; and when she left, on the 6th of August, the , in which respect the Bill was a great improvement on
je ifull took her place, and remained till January, 1844. ; the old law. Under the old system, by the defalcation
iim,act, Otaheite had never been without a British pen- of overseers, both the parishes and the poor were often
had , to leek
after British interests. 'I he Noble Lord robbed. The auditing of the accounts by one person,
teilesaid, if the Vindictive had been there, the occur- with regularity and certainty, would be the saving of a
there would not have happened. But the Dublin was considerable sum of money. Formerly, there was an
hi:e when Admiral Dupetit Thouars did that act which auditor to every union ; but the present Bill provided
afil::pvereign had since disavowed; and when the acts of that one auditor might superintend the accounts of a
80,ei! were. such as to be disavowed by their district consisting of several unions. The nest object
el "gn, he thought it was with these last that this w.,s the establishment of district schools, on the same
• lintry ,
14the f (ignt to treat, rather than risk a collision plan as that at Norwood, the effects of which had been
cip;,. Individual cases which would involve the whole highly beneficial, and district asylums provided. for
.ced
thins. world in war. Captain Tuckett protested furnishing a' refuge to those who were found totally
pew' anY step that was taken, but he acted with the destitute. Then came clauses stating the duties
the
ris,s.t discretion, and did nothing that would involve of existing
..boards; and the powers given to them.
Viedicaof hostilities ; and be did not believe that if the The. last provision to which ke had to call their atten-
would eve had been there the outrage on Mr. Pritchard bon was that which gave the power
_of separating
tlb,„" have been prevented. Their force was stationed parishes from unions. , When the poor-taw. was first
~e ~.,
with iy watch over British interests, but not to interfere passed, he thought there was a mistake made in forming
pert reign Powers. He maintained that they had them to large.—(Hear,heara.) But by this provision
ewer Ted that duty, and that those interests had not this defect could be remedied,
the
without the consent of
%lie' except in the case of that violent outrage, of the guardians. These were tieprincipal objects of the
the poor-law was a great
y ' considering all the circumstances, he would not present Bill. He knew. that
11,.... Earl.il
a Ford. the Noble ord.vituperation with many persons in the country.
He concluded by resisting the motion of object of
But he could not help thinking that those who so treated
tioeit:,_-uuke of WELLINGTON—The Noble Earl op- it, must. forget the evils of the old law. He could not
yea,; has alluded to some observations made by me two help thinking, too, that they estimated too lightly the
sait,2p respecting the state of the navy, and lam now difficulties of dealing with the subject altogether. The
tik-rur. to trouble you with a few remarks just to show supporters of the poor-law were accused of great inhu •
time werence between the state of things at the present manity. Now he had had some experience of the working
tei,,,,,a1:1 at the period at which I made those obser- of the two systems, and he had no hesitation in saying, that
is •". At that time this country was engaged under the present system the poor were infinitely better
Ciii„a State of warfare in North America, in off than before.—(Hear, hear.) It had been stated,that
tle„A in the Persian Gulf, and in India. Al- in consequence of the medical attendants being under
lee gu not then in the active service of the Govern- paid, they neglected the poor ; there might be cases of
etaot i
s was frequently in communication with Lord Hill, this neglect, but generally the poor were better attended
this ever failed whenever he asked my opinion to freely to than before. Under the old system, they scarcely
%ski e With him concernin world state of our fleets and had any medical attendance at all. They would also
tethe4 in all parts of the . The Noble Lord had remember, that when a poor man applied for relief,
14,,e misquoted what I said on a former occasion. there was a kind of dispute or controversy between him
ai,e I complained of was, that being engaged in exten- and the overseer, whether he should be relieved or not.
etirri:Trs in three parts of the globe, those wars were But now, every one who was entitled to relief received
Ilies °il with a peace establishment, and the conse- it with the greatest regularity ; nor was there any
4 , eee ~,,
~ as that the whole peace service was starved. I indisposition to deny relief to the aged. There was
...ja:ot go into details of the number of men and ships no disposition to drive the poor into the workhouse.
I°naval details lam not competent to enter; but, A great deal had been said about the separation of man
rated4ords, ere know•
very
well the amount of estimates and wife, but this existed in all well-regulated work-
s wand - -1-4! h
the
number of men, and the whole naval strength houses under the old poor-law. Generally speaking, as
bate tue number of men for whom naval supplies far as respects the old and married, the former were
thialt lea voted in this Parliament be considered, I better off, the latter as well off, as before. A great deal
lo lit will be found equal to what it was had been urged against the Commissioners of the Poor-
not- it much more warlike period—equal to law, but he felt convinced that that board was the
ofd 1R7,, Was in the years 1837, 1838, 1839, greatest security the poor could have, that they would
I,apetet'-iu, duriug which time we carried on great be treated in a proper manner. When it was attempted
4-fetal `„c)tg iin America, in China, in India, and in the to cry down a particular law, and when that law did
I.4rnaiail;'-ialf• Ample means everywhere exist for per- not deserve these taunts, it was the duty of any honest
her
.1'; those services which ought to be performed by man to state his convictions regarding it, and
elej,,,:JestY's navy, and for affording protection to her support it if he believed it to be just.—
eeoeertra subjects wherever commerce, or their other (Hear, hear.) Although there were cases of
kteaCs' may carry them. I will not allude to the hardship occurring from time to time, he would like to
(I..a4eeentricities in a. distant_ part of the world— know what other law could be devised which would an-
,.._ltaie's, te, v)—carried on under circumstances protested swer the same purpose. He hoped their Lordships would
me ,•,.`I,Y this country and disavowed by the Govern- excuse him for going into the subject at such length,
Ikeeat-,' -el'. ance. Those who have been engaged in these but, from the frequent attempts which had been made to
teizn 'ieities will be responsible for them to their Sove- cry down the law he thought it right thus far to intrude
4tpotul,ll,e,Y will:be held answerable to the extent of their on their Lordships.
,',11(1,6.-"sty, and which will be carried into execution, The Duke of RICHMOND said there was not a word
'tee -Y wilt be required to answer for their conduct in of truth in any of the statements which had been made
ekpreteeeentricities. Your Lordships surely would not in the newspapers regarding the union of which lie was
hal. Ltoo see a fleet maintained in the Pacific, nor would chairman. With respect to the law of bastardy he
Illetlee rdships, lam sure, consider it prudent to corn- would not vote against the amendment introduced in the
beer a contest under such circumstances.—(Hear, Government Bill, as bastardy was so much on the in-
fleet) It is impossible for ,me to say that the crease in the manufacturing districts. With respect to
then lit the Pacific was sufficient, at the time the relief of widows that was a very delicate subject to
but 1 events occurred, to enter into hostilities ; legislate upon ; they should be careful not to give out-
NI to will venture to say it was sufficient door relief to widows who were earning much money, or
vflietk" Purposes of service. Ido not pretend to say were leading an immoral life. He thought it was right
~tittlf, e,r Mr- Pritchard was or was not Consul at the that the unions should be diminished in extent, as they
Peti4.,-cr whether he merited or did not merit what hap- were at present productive of great inconvenience.
en thi to
him—these are questions I will not enter into There was a feeling in the country that when the As-
kNt 3 °ecasion. My Noble Friend has stated that a sistant Poor-law Commissioners came to the boards of
Llltti'44°,4jrage has been
forgetcommitd. I have no doubt but guardians for the purposescrewing the law a little
"etter-ti'°ll will be given at outrage, and it is tighter," officers should be appointed by the Secretary of
lay att lere had been no naval contest there, than that State, not only to attend the boards, but to visit the
BPet toelliPt had been made b Cher, naval officers on the workhouses at times when they were not expected.
Lorienter into a conflict.—e hear.) When a boy ran away from the workhouse with the
key ti `1 CLANRICARDE said he would not enter into workhouse dress on, he was charged with felony for
,the i)„eta„ils, but surely, however weak our fleet was in stealing the clothes. This was a great injustice, and the
,iNt "Leule, it was not- s'o weak as the arguments of the law with respect to it ought to be altered. Another
ebietit hard of the Admiralty.,—(A laugh.) It was quite imperfection in the law was that 'with respect to the
tifi-ere Was not at present a sufficient force in the removal of a pauper for receiving parish medical relief.
sets.e---there was not fleet there as there had been, A woodcutter might obtain enough money. for his family
ll • ''ent t a for to live upon, but if a portion of that family became ill,
titildi 0 ensure respect and proper treatment a .
read officer. The Noble Lord said ships were in it would be impossible for them to pay for medical. aid,
,te,enCesi, and could be dispatched in a mo- and if they applied to theparish for it they would beliable
they ' "lit they had not been ready when to be removed to their own parish, perhaps miles distant.
of ere wanted, and an outrage on a British The board of guardians of which he was chairman never
Ne40"4(1 been perpetrated. lie had heard that the refused medical aid when applied for. Another point
100 rn pia was sent from Portsmouth the other day with of objection to the present law was that with respect to
Was i4esll, on board, 150 of whom were marines; and this operations to be performed by medical men in
Sever :need as a proof of dispatch. An agent of our workhouses. He thought that no operation ought
llboutetlijait hV:ohrhdeoenreigin:ulted—there was no delicacy to be performed in a workhouse without a
the Secretary f
thanly tone, The there Minister, and the Noble Lord second medical man being consulted.—(Hear, hear.)
than that assumed Affairs, had taken a proper and He had, however, great objections to operations being
ks he understoodn . one much more befitting the occasion performed at all in a workhouse where there was a
by the First Lord of the Admiralty. county hospital near. He also objected to pauper boys
1,1
_, e
been, the Dublin left Otaheite in January ; gaining a settlement by apprenticeship. He thought,
s,-.418.tn. there, no such outrage he firmly believed, too, that overseers ought to be empowered to remove
tlisee`:_nYve occurred. The tone assumed by the French paupers to other places besides their native parishes. He
or the in Otaheite should have warned the Admiralty knew himself a case of a poor girl, aged 17, living in the
tre necessity of having the British Power respect- town of Brighton as a domestic servant. She caught
bution:piatdrilevs:enryted at Otaheite. He thought the Noble the typhus fever, and was removed to her parish for
much exaggerated the state of our rela- medical relief. When she recovered, the overseer said
tuttl 183,-, foreign countries during the years 1837, 1838, that he had no doubt from her good character that he
that th - He cordially joined in the Noble Lord's hopes could get her a situation, but she replied that she did
rittiees; e Was no danger or necessity for warlike prepa- not want one, as her mistress in Brighton had kept her
hat
wabut. the Government should not be blind to situation open for her. Now such was the law that the
I°3' havi 3 going on on the coast of Morocco; and it was overseers had not the power of sending this poor girl to
::7, :garal respectableof force there that the chance of Brighton, and the only way she got there was by a sub-
_ li_ld be best avoided. scription being raised to defray her expenses there.
Tte,, Earl of HADDINGTON explained. —(Hear, hear.) Now he thought this was a state of the
4 expian , HARDWICKE considered the answer law which required alteration.—(Hear.) Upon the whole,
, sedin
,_ ation given by his Noble Friend (Lord he thought the present Bill was a great amendment of
the thsses.‘?a) Perfectly satisfactory. In consequence of the law as it now stood, but he thought it might be
ularlialoelnlsketion evinced by the public at large, and by made susceptible of still further improvement.
li e Noblest, at
(to of Lord
the condition of the navy during the time The Earl of FORTESCUE considered that the law
opposite (the Earl of Minto) was at the
oe theas it stood, was a great improvement on the old law, and
Vortunit Admiralty, that Noble Lord seized every he looked on the present measure as an amendment of
121, ahriekY of applying the tu quoque. He (the Earl of the existing law. He thought that the appointment of
t,7q to ail
,e) did not think that debates of this kind would district auditors and the establishment of district houses
,•'' the di ) good result. He had always felt that, in addition for the reception of the houseless. poor, would prove
deg
ns„,lP°Bable force which was- stationed' abroad, it highly beneficial. He could not sit down without ex-
`Lis --'ssar
A Posable i. Y, at all. times, to have in this country a pressing his opinion that the Poor-law Commissioners
he
Qove_ TOree of ships, that, on any emergency arising, were deserving of the gratitude of the poor and the•con•
eog'l4l to Talent might be enabled to send out additional fidence of the country.—(Hear.)
kNenee, foreign station, and he felt perfect The Earl of HARDWICKE said that, notwithstand-
-4 the utt_la.at at no period within the last few years, ing the efforts made by a certain portion of the press,
„.peet vs nave profession been more effective, either with there was a general feeling amongst the poorer classes of
-4,-itoes. " the home-yards or those ships on foreign the agricultural districts, that this law worked for their
cli:4e tad advantage. If they looked to the contrast between the 1
th_llteter __ , or
_MINTO replied. H. e eulogised the condition of the people under the old law and under the
es7r_e was 4uct gallantry of Sir C. Napier, and said that present law, they would find that the existing law was a
44iletwe no,v. man in whom he would place so much benefit. It had been said that this was a grinding law.
lea to thi, with respect to naval matters. He had been Why, under this law, or under any other, a system of
riniPiee "he Opinion by the gallant conduct of Sir C. grinding might exist, but it was not to be attributed to
N., wit
.11 in command of the fleet in the Mediter- the law. In the union in which lie resided, when a per-
itit'espond!-4 he (the Earl of Minto) had the honour of son sought for admission into the workhouse, he was
th 2 e,,,,,, ding with him. The Noble Earl then entered asked if he could not get employment, and if he said not,
i hist 'lParison of the complements of the ships in they gave him a paper which he was to get filled up.
411 ttl'e Mar, and
those which were at present stationed No doubt he might come back and say he could not get
tq'''eerd viLeerra;nean. There were five 74-gun vessels more than so much wages, but lie would then be ad-
At Vi thrent s action, with a complement of 575 men mitted, and if the poor labourers adopted this system,
i/it:.rkfaijja ; in Lord Duncan's action there were 554. and entered the workhouse for some months, they would
kr :we.
eiivr, there were sixteen seventy-fours, divided compel the farmers to give them higher wages, for they
tr eh ahisses, but the average number was 598 men would not pay the high rates, and the condition of the
Z).l t a litte,l3. Sir Robert Stoptbrd had seventeen ships labourers would be better than ever it was before. He
Ito
.0 tack An. which there wer 775 marines, which gave would not at that late period enter more at large upon
11ifiqh,e'ulP• Those, together with the crews, gave this subject. He concurred generally in the Bill, which
,4 11 4° or 607 men for each ship. He had heard it
4e aetlihad been introduced by the Government, and particularly
te til)erh, der e place that the present armament was of in the bastardy clauses, except that portion of the fifth
or ekb seription. That might be true with regard clause, which allowed a sum of money to the mother of
thicl,,,etal which the
it was not so with regard to the weight an illegitimate child. He thought that was a
Nvail,': ive,i.,e,h the vessels carried. The complements of clause of very doubtful tendency.—(Hear, hear.)
No_ acne i',"waYs less in time of peace than in time of He thought it would be much better to make the' money
ia teer, mole had the authority of Admirals Martin, payable to the parish, and that it seahould support the
N(114 ot, up Stopford, for saying that a full complement mother. He thought also that the ple ought not to
stela Lordr was an impediment. When he sue- be taxed for district schools at the will of the Cora-
tre,4 condit:_e Grey he found the state of the navy in missioners. This taxing power he thought very ob-
the) 4 esti_wa that he was obliged to ask for an in- jectionable •it was an entirely new principle—a power
a, F r,, ".ate for men and stores, and almost every-
titd -Malt, that ought 'not to be given to the Commissioners. He
%nditi not an,,, for a ship.—(Cheers.) He hoped he should not move any amendment, but he wished the Bill
The on, gain see the navy of the country in such a had been a little longer before the House.—(Hear, hear,
The ha of from the Bishop of Exeter.) He wished they could have
co motion 4IADDINGTON explained. submitted it to a Select Committee, in which it might
ss torclirklo,-Na .‘',.14: then negatived without a division. have been carefully digested.
'Nniii ‘-'4I."V ii p-44‘'W COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord LYTTELTON also regretted that more time
ace ing th BELL moved the order of the day for
i anl e ad: could not be given for considering the measure. He,
Chi eadneeu J°llrned debate on this Bil
l. and moved however, should not offer any opposition to it.
11er taro, that the words " Chief Justice," or The Bishop of EXETER moved that the House do
Lear: Doke", 'be substituted for the Lord Lieutenant. adjourn.
Method Lord °f RICHMOND hoped the Noble and The Earl of STRADUROKE had great objections to
in theVght then:ould not persevere in his amendment. the bastardy clause. But when the Poor-law Bill
the ;,, , and, of Patronage would be much better placed had passed a great stimulus had been given to employ-
Trcißes. me Lord Lieutenant than inthe hands of ment, and the condition of the poor on the whole had
E, etn 1
itett Sof th
~,,s st r, eerr,... been better since that period. Regarding the separation
Ivql eould n' vv ICKLOW did not see why this patron- of man and wife, he thought a better provision could not
h as of,et be in
Bhd the x. . the hands of the Irish judges as
English judges. If it were better in the be made than under the present system.
The Earl of RADNOR approved of the new poor-
14t er in this Crown in one country, it would be also
law, but he protested altogether against the bastardy
e tile lawlB country, H • • •
he i - e would be anxious to assimi-
iv e Lo,Lt both countries.
`lPs wer'4 CHANCELLOR said he knew the Irish clauses in the proposed amendments. Every part of the
worked well except the bastardy
1,,, The ka 3 anxious for this present measure
The great mischief was, firstly, that of the women
ere equi „ patronage.
to •auei, 3of NORMANBY said that if the fathers; and secondly, the number of corn-
s, re tieutus to receive this judges swearing. to
mitals to jail for non-payment of the allowance con-
patronage, he knew that the
1:1 liaxiQuerlant, as far as he was concerned himself, non-content to any bastardy
took, to sto get rid of it. He thought it w uld be
Itritr assimilate the law of Ireland to law in this treated for. He would say
clause introduced by the Government.
Th Y The Marquis of NORMANBY cordially participated
4112, e nuke in the sentiment, and expressed his concurrence in the
k PDrt of RICHMOND said he was prepared to
Ilt%hi 1 - rileaShr •
ISI jud e taking away the patronage from the opinion of many of his Noble Friends, that a Bill of this
late a period
magnitude should not be introduced at so
114414 Odes, and vesting it in the Crown.
of the session.
llobl TESCUE concurred in . The Bishop of EXETER would persist in his motion.
1,6 e Friend, the view taken by
Pkssed. amendment The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE had no wish to hurry
was then agreed to, and the Bill the House, at the same time he thought they should
Lc ?°Oll T. now proceed with its discussion.
th rd WI/ A --AW AMENDMENT BILL. Lord CAMPBELL thought the Bill might have been
on the should said that in moving that introduced into their Lordships' house at first.
1.4 ttie poor.icwuld resolve itself itself into a Committee Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no
4,,r,,42 hips foir , he felt it necessary to detain their , division took place.
wi,•re that a short time. Their Lordships must be I The Bill then went through Committee pro forma, and
tsr` the p
toneesettpf the most difficult subjects connected was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow (this day).
0fdt13,% 11 th le' poor-law, was the law relating to has- 1 On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the
rushee Parkish e law, as it stood at present, the overseer Scotch Salmon Fisheries Bill passed through Committee.
in_ ee of
~
eould take the mother of a bastard before a Several other Bills on the paper were forwarded a
g tee n„..,ta peece, who had the power of sup
- , stage, and the House adjourned at Quarter-past One,
"uer fel. support, and if the father sup. 1 till jialf-past Three o'clock to=morrow (this day).