The Sun.
London, England, 1857-08-21 00:00:00

THE ..SIIN, i LONDON, FRIDAY'EVENING, s AUGUST 21,- 1857.

and Tarbes:Yet, by the War-twat of Oct., 1854, this dis-
tiuguished soldier, who had retired when he became a
full colonel, was passed over by no fewer than 53 other
officer 4, many of whom had joined the army long-after
the close of the French war. There remained on the
same list a great number of other officers who bad gained
their promotion for distinguished gallantry. Before this
warrant came into play nobody could pass over the head
of a lieutenant-colonel but a Queen's aide-de-camp ; and,
relying on this rule, many officers had gone upon half-
pay. He had brought this subject under the notice of the
house in the month of June, when be obtained an assu-
rance that it would receive the attention of the noble
lord at the bead of the War Department. Since then,
however, he regretted to say that as many as 25 men had
been promoted over the head of the senior colonel on
this list. No greater pay was given to a colonel than to
a lieutenant-colonel ; and a brevet might easily have
been issued by which these officers would have been

spared the mortification of seeing young men who were
subalterns when they themselves were lieutenant-colonels
preferred over them merely because they had been in
command of regiments for two years and nine months.
He therefore trusted that the noble lord at the head of
the Government, who, he was sure, was always disposed
to reward the services of the officers of the army in a
fitting manner, would take steps in the course of the en-
suing recess to remedy so grievous a hardship.
Sir F. SMITH congratulated the noble lord at the bead
of the Government on the introduction of the present mea-

sure. No sounder arrangement could be made than to
embody a portion of the militia. He believed that the re-
cruiting of the regular army would, at the same time,
be earned on with great success. During the late war
40,000 men were enlisted in the regiments of the line,
and we then had as many as 800 different recruiting de-
tachments. When the mutiny broke out in India we had
only 26 such detachments, but since that time the num-
ber had been rapidly increased, and now amounted to
between 300 and 400. Within the last fortnight we had
obtained upwards of 1,000 recruits, although the-cir-
cumstances were unfavourable for procuring them. When
the harvest was completed we should no -doubt get a
great many more, under the auspices of the distinguished
officer who presided over our recruiting operations. Toe
Government had despatched to India an augmentation
of the troops of the line, and also of the cavalry. They
were likewise, for the first time—it being an exception
to the ordinary rule—sending out a force of the Royal
Artillery. There were 3,000 Sappers and Miners attached
to our army, and he was quite certain that 1,000 might
be spared for India. He might be told that the East In-
dia Company had a sufficient number of engineers in
India, but he believed that that was not the fact. He
had reason to know that there was a great demand for
engineers in India. Of course, if Delhi had fallen—and
he hoped it bad—there would not be so great a necessity
for their services ; but every military man, and no man
better than the noble viscount at the head of the Govern-
ment, knew that there were but four ways by which
Delhi could be reduced—first by capitulation, which was
highly improbable, and which would be very impolitic
for us to accept, be the terms what they might ; next,
by investing it, and reducing the mutineers by famine,
which would be a long operation, and one that would not
keep up the prestige of the British army in India ;
thirdly, by assault, and fourthly by escalade. The last
named plan—that of escalade—would not be very easy
for us to accomplish, owing to the present position of
our army in India. It would be seen, then, that the
most advisable means of reducing Delhi was that of
making a breach, with a view to its capture. Of course
it was very well known that. the whole of the Sappers
and Miners belonging to the East India Company's
service bad deserted with the rest of the rebels, and
were now in Delhi. Every military man knew that the
sorties at Delhi bad bean conducted with considerable
skill. One of tne flanks had been attacked, and another
flank turned, and if that flank had not been composed
of British Fiddlers the men helongin-e to it would have
been doubled up and utterly destroyed.' He should net be
at all surprised if the mutineers now in Delhi made ano-
ther Saragossa. Gen. Barnard bad not, so far as he
knew, a single soldier who was abbe to do the work of a
sapper and miner. He therefore hoped that her Majesty's
Government would send out a large body of men tho-
roughly qualified to do that kind of work. Perhaps he
might be told that a European sapper could not work in
the hot climate of India ; but he did not believe any-
thing of the kind. If we sent out European gunners to
work in the field, surely our sappers could perform the
less severe work of carrying on sapping and mining ope-
rations at night. Their work was invariably done under
cover. Moreover, be had been assured, on the high autho-
rity of a gentleman who had charge of the railway w: rks
in India, that the whole of the Indian railways could be
constructed entirely by European labour. He therefore
begged most respectfully to suggest to her Majesty's Go-
vernment the great desirableness of sending out to India
a portion of our Sappers and Miners, who, he was satis-
fied, would well discharge their duty.
Sir D. E. EVANS concurred in the suggestion of the
hon. and gallant gentleman as to the sending oult of Sap-
pers and Miners to India. Even if Delhi were taken be'
fore the Sappers and Miners arrived there, they might be
most usefully employed in the construction of a series of
fortified positions. Europeans might not be able to work
so rapidly in India as the natives ,of India, but their
work would be more solid and finished than that done by
natives. They were now on the eutject ot the militia,
which was intimately connected with the whole of the
Indian question, because the militia was to be embodied
fur the very purpose of meeting the state of things which
the mutiny in India had occasioned. He was very much
astonished to find that the noble lord at the head
of the War Department had stated that the number of
militiamen proposed to be called out for the present was
10,000. That number appeared to him to be totally and
absurdly inad quate. He recollected complaints were
made by navel officers almost on the eve of the declara-
tion of war against Russia of the insufficient number of
ealors in the Royal navy, but not a sailor was added to
it, and the Government attempted to justify their supine-
ness by giving this very wise reason—that the increaseof
our navy at that time might affect the negotiations then
being carried on wi'll the Emperor of Russia. He really
thought that the addition of merely 2,000 men to our
navy was not much wiser conduct than that of the Go-
vernment immediately previous to the war with Russia.
He begged to r taggest to the Government the great_want
of small steamers to carry en our operations against the
mutineers. We bad several such vessels, if not rotting,
at leact lying idle, which might be turned to ex
el-
lent account if they were sent to take part in the opera-
tions in India. By their means our men could penetrate
far into the interior of India, and a moral as well as a
physical etfect would thereby he produced upon the peo-
ple of India. He hoped that the Government would em-
ploy some of our large ships of war in conveying troops
to India. The French set us the example of. thus em-
ploying ships of war during the campaign in the Crimea.
The French navy did not entertain that prejudice which
it was said our naval officers entertained against the em.
ployment of war vessels as transports during a time of
war. Even if, a little irregularity should be occasioned
in the discipline of our navy by employing our war ships
as transports, he thought that any objection which our
naval officers might have of that nature ought to yield
to a desire to promote the public good in a time of emer-
gency. He hoped Government would reconsider this
subject, and, if possible, employ the great and powerful
steamers belonging to her Majesty for service in India.
Every exertion ought to be made on this occasion. Lie
conflicts which Lad taken place before Delhi and in other
places were, he found, of a vigorous desciiption, and it
was gratifying to see the heroic valour displ eyed by our
soldiers of every class in the face of vastly superier num-
bers. On this point he would remind the noble lord
that a year or two ago ber Majee4y determined to grant
what was styled the Victoria Cross for acts of special
valour. In tutnre that reward was to be given on the
field by the general commanding, and this was a frost
desirable mode of distribnition. He should recommend
for the consideration ot the noble lord whether authority
might not be given to Sir Coliu Campbell to confer this
Victoria Cross as a reward for the gallant acts of our In-
dian troops lately recorded. He thought also that on such
an emergency a 3 this the Government should consider the
, propriety of removing the ground of complaint which was
wade more than once by the D ake of Wellington in his tle-
spatches—namtly, that behad not the power of giving the
'smallest promotion. It would be well to give the com-
mander-in-chief in India the power not only to fill up
vacancies, but to grant promotion, subject, of course, to
the confirmation of the Sovereign aed the Government.
He saw by the public journals that the force in the
Persian Gulf had been ordered back to India. Tne
statement was, he hoped, correct. General Jacob, who
was in command of that force, was a man of great exee-
rience, of great scientific attainments, and of undoubted
ability ; aid no man in the Indian army stood higher
in the service. Independently, therefore, of the great
advantage which would he gained from his pres-nce
in Schiele, where he was so well' known, it was to be
hoped that his services would be made available iq
.some command. The mention cf this nfficer'e name, by
'the by, reminded him of the statement that these mutin-
ies **l taken the Indian Government by surprise.
.'"eve must, however, have been some infatuation on the
Pert of t
t Ile Government on this point, for the whole
s‘ p,e rn°l , lib:pp had been laid bate seven years ago in
Generoz:otha very striking character published by
; The strat,ments also made by Sir
Charles Napier
ject ought au rely tl,a'd other :officers on the same sub-
take steps to avert the induced the Government to
question of caste, wl,ietigers pointed out. n the
be saw it reported 11(11 so much to do in this mat-
t-in tvrwapapers th..t the emu-
mender of the forces
had lately issued an
new that
order of a character quiteof
hi
namely, that recruits only Presiden Cy-
argray.ast should in future
, huii,pdeesltattheattabhaet
be raised for the Bombay
right hon. gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) e„
this was not the case, or otherwise it would
afford a
strong proof to his mind of the unfitness of the °Met r he
alluded to for the high command held by him. Nothing
child be more obvious than the inconsistency and
the imprudence of attempting to engraft upon the
bay army a system of caste which had led
slapareetly
to such fatal results in the army Of peng• °l' ano-
ther point connected with India he must express
pia
satisfaction with the statement of the noble lord the
Other evening, that the Government intended to
give pecuniary aid for the establishment of the t,le-
graph between Suez and Aden. It was true that this
would only apply to some few hundred miles of the
route to India, but no doubt it would greatly
facilitate and accelerate the communication, and be
trusted, therefore, the Government would see that the
tmdertaking was carried out with despatch. With re-
gard to what had been said on a former cceasion as to
the conveyance of troops through Egypt, he confeeeed
that the statement of the noble lord respecting the dun
culties by no means convinced him of the iuspraetici-
bility of adopting this route. In his opinion, a portion
of the troops might with great advantage be sent through
Egypt, and as the necessity for sending reinforcements
would undoubtedly continue he hoped the Government

would reconsider this subject. Other -points connected
with the state of affairs in India had been touched in the
discussions which had taken place, but to these he would
not refer. He had neither the ability nor the disposition
to enter into the question of policy raised the other even-
ing by the right hon. gentleman opposite ; but there
were one or two matters relating to Indian policy which
it would not be well not to lose sight of. It appeared
that some of the native princes, even among those re-
siding close upon the scene of conflict, had remained
perfectly loyal in the midst of the disturbances which had
taken place. Among them were Holkar, Scindiala, and
others ; and he thought it would be well without wait-
ing for ulterior events, that those princes would be told
that their conduct would be rewarded hereafter by an
extension of their territory or in some other way. At
all events, some declaration of the intention of the
Government to evince their satisfation at and their grati-
tude for the course pursued by those princes ought not
to be delayed, because it was of the utmost importance
to us that they should remain steady to our alliance.
Then, agiin, he ventured to think the Government
ought to make arrangements to finish this matter cer-
tainly in the second campaign. By next November our
troops ought to march with triumph through every
part of the disturbed districts. As to the reinforce-
ments he hoped these would not be despatched by
driblets, but that every exertion would be made,
without reference to money, to place the largest possible
amount of naval and military force at the disposal
of - the Indian Government, He bad expressed his
satisfaction the other day that a large reinforcement of
artillery—consisting, he believed of 17 troops—was to be
sent out. It appeared, however, that those troops were
weak in number, and would only muster 134 gunners
each. Now, the strength of the troops of artillery in
the Crimea was eventually 204 men. In the present
case no margin was left for losses by sickness or other
causes, and he should not. be surprised if it were shortly
found necessary to form tso of these troops into one.
It was most essential for the Government to bear in
mind that from •arious causes heaVy losses must be
looked for in the force despatched to India, and adequate
provision must be made to supply these losses.

Sir W. F. WILLIAMS quite concurred in the re-
marks by the hon. and gallant member for Chatham
(Sir F. Smith) upon the necessity of sending out Sappers
and Miners to India. When they remembered the
number of strong places which were now in the
hands of the rebels, hon. gentlemen might well
imagine the efforts which must be made before
they could be dislodged by troops of this description.
In his opinion, it would be necessary to send out
1,000 of this admirable corps with their officers as soon
as possible. He concurred also in the remarks of the
hon. and gallant general (Sir De Lacy Evans) as to the
strength of the troops and companies of artillery which
were to be despatched. These troops were about to em-
bark for a country the climate of which in some districts
was of a most deadly character, and therefore not only
ought they to leave England in as efficient a state as
possible, bat every calculation should be made for the
casualties which might be anticipated in their ranks.
He did not concur in the hope expressed by the gallant
general, that if Delhi were taken, not one stone should
be left upon another. (Hear, hear.) It contained
arsenals and works which had been prepared with great
care and at great expense ; it contained, also, a large
amount of stores and ammunition, and a intro se-
rious mistake bad not been made of late years than
leaving such a place, full of such materiel, in the charge
of black troops. (Hear, bear.) Instead of Delhi being
destroyed, and not one stone being left upon another,
he , hoped that it might be preserved with very
great c iregand that, if we once got possession of it again
we should never selow an enemy to be seen within its
-walls. He agreed in all that had been said with respect
to the want of fortified places in India. He had been in
all the presidencies of that country, and he had seen, so
to speak, the nakedness of the land—station after station
without a single stronghold. - The consequence was that
when we were attacked all went over like a pack of cards.
He hoped that Parliament would turn their attention to
this sue jest and that we should never again permit so
great a calamity—he might say disgraceto fall upon
the nation. He was perfectly sure that her Majesty's
Government would never at the commencement of this
session have reduced so many of the regular troops of
Great Britain had it not been for the pressure from
without. He was satisfied, therefore, that it was not
their fault. He remembered how the noble lord the mem-
ber for London and the right hon. gentleman the mem-
ber for the University of Oxford vied with each other-es
bade as it were against each other—with regard to those
reductions, and he was persuaded that had the Govern-
ment attempted at that tine to retain those troops they
would have been defeated. bet them hope that what
had taken place would be a warning 'to them—(hear,
from the oppoetion)—and he trusted thathor. gentlemen
opposite who said " hear, hear," would assist them with
their votes when these matters elute under consideration
in future. (An hon. member on the opposition side.—
"We have never done otherwise.") With regard to the
Sappers and Miners going to India, be remembered that
when Aldershot was being discussed in that house he
stated that he was in favour of Aldershot en condition.
inter alia, that the troops of the line should be instructed
in a certain amount cf sapping and mining; in making
gabious, and in other things that might ba useful when
they went to India. He only hoped that they had been
so instructed and that the authorities at A.ldersh,:t had
taken those steps. If they had net, they might probably
hear opinions expressed when they came to discuss these
subjects next year which would not be agreeable.
Si. H. VERNEY was satisfied that whatever eeter-
tions her Mejesty's Government might think fit to make
to meat the present crisis in India, to render our troops
victorious, and to restore that government and do-
minion which we had so long enjoyed there, would meet
with the cordial co-:operation of the honso and of tho
country. (Hear.) He could sot entirely concur with
his gallant friead who had last spoken in saying that
. the Government were not to blame for cutting down our
establishments, because he did snot believe that they
would listen to representations made on either side of
the house unless they conceived that those representa-
tions were founded on justice and truth, and he con-
tended that it was upon their responsibility and that of
no one else that the reductions bad taken place. He
thought, however, that they should now incintre, not so
much who was to blame for the frightful calamity that
had taken place, as what measures could be adopted to
remedy the present state of things and as soon as pos-
sible to give protection to our couptrymen in India.
He desired to see, for example, not only large steamers
employed upon the large rivers, but small steamers
sent up a!1 the small rivers where our stations
mostly were established. Such steamers going up,
well armed and wed mantel, would afford the greatest
pos•dhle protection to those stations. He knew win the
frightful callosities to which our countrymen were ex-
po ed, and he trusted, therefore, that there would be
not ing Ike vacillation or waist ofstrengtb; determine' lora
or vigour ex' stated on the part of the Government or of
the authorities in India. (Hear, bear ) He was quite
sure that when the details of this Indian warfare should
be told we should find that there had been performed
acts of heroic valour and of wonderful fortitude on the
part both of soldiers and civilians which would fill U 3
with achniration and with national pride. (Hear, hear.)
In conclusion, he trusted that the gallant army. which
was about to proceed to India would be provided with
adequate medical essis'ance and with every comfort and
necessary that could be required. (Hear, hear.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN, in answer to the various ques-
tions which had been addressed to him, said, that the
principle on which the Government bad acted with re-
spect to ceiling out the militia was that the number
which they proposed to embody should bear some pro•
portion to the number of troops sent from this country
to serve in India. At present, according to the number
sent out, the Government consi lered that it waned be
sufficient to embody 10,000 militia to do the garrison
duty which the troops that had gone to India would
otherwise have done. If it should afterwards be found
uecessary to despatch a larger limber of troops to India,
then it would be requisite to draw more largely on the
militia; but in the meantime 10,000 would be enough
for the purpose. He had received no intimation with
respect to the insufficiency of the information which had
been given to the surgeons of the militia to guide them
in the conduct of the recruiting service ; but if any of
those gentlemen-thought it desirable that the directions
should be more precise they would receive every iuf re
mation upon application at the War-office. It was im-
possible at present to state precisely which militia regi-
ments it was intended to embody. He was fully aware
that it must be a matter of great inconvenience to mi-
litia officers to be kept in doubt longer than was neces-
sary, and as soon therefore as it wool l be possible to let
them know, consistently with the public interests, they
should be informed. In selecting the regiments Govern-
ment would be regulated by the reports which they
received as to the ability of the various regiments to do
the most efficient service immediately on being called out.
Admiral WALCO IT suggested that Admiral Seymour
should receive orders to despatch all the small steamers
and gunboats which he had at Hongkong to India.
They would be of immense use in ludia, wilds as to the
Chinese, we could take them in band at any time, and
thrash them at our leisure. ("Hear," and a laugh.)
He took this opportunity of expressing the high opinion
he entertained of the gallantry and judgment which had
been exhibited by Admiral Seymour and the others,
both of the navy and marines, under his nothrnaed, who
bad been engaged in the operations in the Chinese wat,rs.
Lord PALMERSTON—My hon. friend tho Under-
Secretary of State for War has explained generally the
points of detail that have been referred to in the course
of this debate. I can only repeat what he has said, that
in fixing the number of the militia which we think it ex-
pedient to embody we by no means bind ourselves not
to call out more if circumstances should render it expe-
dient to do so. However, recruiting has gone cn with
great success in spite of the harvest, and we entertain no
deutbht that when the operations incident to this period
of e year are completed the number enrolled will very
rapidly increase, and we shall be able to piece in the
tanks a_ number of
11Y men equal to that which has been
or Wer s
sent to India,
hon, arid gallant friend the member
f astiou whestminschtg
recea'ed to-night a very natural sug-
wa mad;
tooltpidrevious evening, that these
troops should be sent la in screw lioc-of-battle
ships, which could easily be adapted to that purpose,
ehnYwair
an arrangement
and de-
ceit crew, and would
loaurlgdebneumnabveirgaotfemd
WI) In the first instance inch
spa •
carrywh iwhich
ac
arrangement may
appear to be very- odvantageous, but I could reil nest the
s
house to bear in mind other considerations in retard te
the amount cf our military force at bogie which have
been forcibly dwelt upcn. We were reminded that we
had been compelled to despatch to distant stations a
large portion of our military force for which we asked

.
and-which Parliament granted, for the general purposes
of the country
6...
in time of peace, and it was said, "By so
doing you have really
weakened your defensive means
at home, and faroe-,,n countries may take advantage of
ns, and either hold language which
r do things to which you ought
your apparent weaku,
The enewzsr which I gave to that was
younot
toongsuhntinniott.uto bear ~.1
would not endure con-
that the people of this country
ergency should re-;
duct of that sort, and that if an e.:11
quire it men would be raised rapid;; and upon the
sudden. That very consideration, hos...ever/
shows
how inexpedient it would be to send to the other end
of the world the greater portion of our our naval _
force—
(hear, hear)—because, although these steam lin "of-
battle ships are, it is true, lying in ordinary and of t:,is
immediate use, yet if any of these events should occur
we should want suddenly to put to sea a large fleet, and
how could we do that if the ships which we should re-
quire were doing duty as tranepotts in the Indian Seas l
Therefor: I think that prudence shows that the despatch
of these ships to the East would have been a very ines-
, pedient course—in fact, it would have been falling into
• the error which the great orator of Greece imputed to
the Persians. He said—

- -
" When you strike a blow at one part of them they put
their hand to that part and leave exposed every other,
which may be struck in turn. Do not, you Athenians,
follow so unwise and foolish an example."
I think we should have fallen into an error of the same
kind if we had sent to India the fleet which circumstances
occurring in Europe might, at short notice, render neces-
sary for our defence at home. (Hear.) The suggestion of
the hon. and gallant officer as to the sending of troops
across Egypt is well worthy of consideration. Oa a pre-
vious occasion I stated the objection to such a proceed-
ing. These objections it may be possible to overcome,
especially if you can make arrangements beforehand. If
a small force were required speedily at a particular sta-
tion arrangements might be made for sending it across
from Alexandria to Suez. With regard to the general
question, I think that the house ought to take a larger
view than hon. members have generally been disposed to
adopt. We Lave been reproached for precipitately re-
ducing our army and navy upon the return of peace.
Some have said that in doing so we yielded to pressure
from particular members of this house, while others have
attributed it to a want of foresight on our part. The
course which we have adopted is the only one which any
government acting under a representative system such as
ours will ever be able to pursue. Different forms of Go-
vernment have their different advantages. Undoubtedly
a despotic Government is the best for providing in time
of peace the means and preparations for war, because such
a Government, being subject to no control but its own
will, and possessing the foresight which you must assume
all governors of countries to have, keep up in time
of peace a larger force than is actually required for de
fence, and when war unfortunately occurs it is at once
ready to meet the pressure which is thereby occasioned.
On the other hand, when war does break out then comes
the advantage of representative institutions, because
then it is that the whole nation rallying round the Go-
'moment gives to it a support and foree which no des-
potic Government can by any means or by any possi-
bility possess. In tisie of peace, however, a iwpresenta-
tire Government is comparatively weak. It is not that
if.we were to press this house we might not persuade it
to vote men in Committee of Supply. We might induce
it to give U 3 a larger peace establishment both of army
and navy, but your votes of supply are of no use what-
ever wises they are accompanied by votes in Ways and
Means. That is the limit of your peace establishment.
What happens when peace arrives ? What took place
last year Daring the war the country was ready to
submit to any reasonable and necessary sacrifice to carry
it to a successful issue. It bora great burdens and woul i
have endured greater still if it had been satisfied-that
they were necessary for the vindication of the national
honour and the assertion of national interests. Nations,
however, have no foresight, or at least very little. Indi-
viduals may have, but multitudes have none. The con-
sequence was that the moment peace was made every-
body from one end of the country to the other cried out
for the remission of the war income -tax. That was a cry
which-this house was neither disposed nor able to resist,
the consequence was that the Government found it abso-
lutely necessary to bow to the national will, and the war
inc me-tax was given up. That reduced our income, and
we were necessarily compelled to proportion our peace
establishment to the income which Parliamena as the
organ of the country, chose to give us. That was
the real reason of the reduction of our military and
naval establishments to an amount lower than woul I
have been expedient at the present moment. (Hear.)
Still, with all the inconvenience which these changes
of opinion• and of system may produce, there are in-
herent in a representative assembly so many ad-
vantages that these should be regarded only as defects
which the country must at ail times be ready to repair
by prompt and speedy measures ; and I am quite
sure that those exertions will n ver be wanting when the
occasion may require them. The present case, however,
is not one of so much difficulty as was presented at the
breaking out of the Russian war, because when that war
began all the addition to our military was to be made at
the expense of the country. The expense of any addi-
tions made now falls, not upon the revenues of the em-
pire, but upon those of thetEast India Company. There-
fore, no additional expenditure is required on the partof
the nation, and all that we have to do is, as troops are
from time to time withdrawn for action abroad, to keep
up our e,tablishments at the numbers voted by the Com-
mittee of Supply. That I think we shall be able to do ;
but this house has already unat.lmausly voted an address
to the Crown, assuring her Majesty that nothing shall
be wanting on our part to enable her to carry on opera-
tions in India with vigour and success ; and if between
this and the period at which Parliament usually meets
it should be necessary to ask for further assistance, lam
quite sure that no members of this house would grudge
tie attendance which might be necessary to afford that
assistance to the-Governmmt. (Cheers.) My bun, and
gallant friend thinks that a large naval force ought to be
sent to India, as a flotilla which should operate in the
river?. The house, must, however, recollect what I am
sure my hon. and gallant friend from his experience
knows very well, that the Indus and the Ganges, al-
though they figure well upon a map, and are really very
large streams, are not generally of such a depth as to be
navigable by ships which we could send from home.
Their navigation is impeded by sandbanks, shoats,
rocks, and shallows, and any ships which we could
send from this country would be perfectly useless ex-
cept just at their mouths. My right hon, friend the
First Lord of the Admiralty has sent or is sending.
nut such. a flotilla as it possible to despatch from
England, but it must be remembered that the
East India Company have a navy of their own.
All their ships were employed in the Persian cwwedition,
but the greater portion of them must by this time have
returned to India, and therefore their crews can be placed
in their shallew boats or rafts., which alone are useful for
the navigation of the rivers of India, and by which any
operations iii those rivers can best be performed. With
respect to Persia, the engagements embodied in the re-
cent treaty have not yet been fulfilled. Herat has not
yet been evacuated. On the contrary, there are reports
which affirm that additional troops have been seat by
Persia to Herat. That has been denied by the Persian
Ambassador at Paris ; but still the whole of the engage-
mettle of the treaty have not been carried into effect ;
groat doubts are entertained as to the good faith of the-
'Persian Government ; and therefore, until the stipula-
tions of the treaty have been complied with, it is per-
fectly clear that the British force cannot and will not be
withdrawn. That force is under the command of Gene-
ral Jaceb, a most distinguished general officer, and until
that force has been withdrawn it will be necessary to
have there an officer of the great military experience
which General Jacob possesses. Well, then, I say we are
thankful for the suggestions which have been made this
evening, coming as they do from persons who are so well
competent to make them, and I can assure those who
have offered them and the •house that they shall receive
every attention from her Majesty's Government, who
will take advantage of any of those suggestions that they
may think likely to conduce to the efficiency of the pub-
lic service. But I entreat the house to believe that the
attentions of her Majesty's Government shalLbe most
carefully and anxiously directed day by day to these sad
events. We feel not only how afflicting are the details
which reach us from time to time, but -also the vast im-
portance of the conflict- now going on. We_ have no
doubt, however, of our ultimate success. We are coe El-
dent that the strength and power of this country will be
put forth to suppress this insurrection,'let the causes of
it he what they may, whether they be religious or
palitical, or from whatever source they may have
sprung. (Cheers.) I shall not enter into those causes
pow ; hut I can assure the house that we feel the
full importance of maintaining the Indian empire of this
c mntry, that no exertions towards that end shall be
wanting; on our part, and I have the most perfect confi-
dence that those exertions will be attended with complete
suecess. (Cheers.)
Mr. DISRAELI (who spoke in so unusually 1)w a
tone of voice as to render it a matter of difficulty to col-
lect the whole of his observations), was understood to
say—l only wish our home defencee were at this mo•
moment not inferior to what they were during the 1 etc
war, for we had then our Artillery, our Marines, and
our Channel fleet. But now our Artillery has gone to
India, our Marines are in Caiaa, and our Ch lane! fleet
—(the remainder of the sentence was inaudible). We
must ;member, with respect to the observations of
the gallant general as to the transmission cf troops by
ships of war of the highest class, that, according to the
reports we have, there are ships of that character quite
sufficient to make an efficient defence of our own coun-
try, and to act in the manger which the gallant general
suggested, while we might at the same time have
the great advantage of a Channel fleet., But I think
everybedy must admit that in an emergency of this
kind, after all we have heard of scientific progress
during the last few years, and of the application of
science to the purposes of war, and after all we
have heard of screw propellers and overland routes to
India, it is eawreinely mortifying to find that we can-
not have recourse to any of those new sources of
strength. (Hear.) I think that is very much to be- re-
gretted ; and although we may net be ells to send 30,000
or 40,000 men over Egypt, yet there can he no doubt
that 5,000 men, if they had been sent through
Egypt, would have been a most valuable addition
to the force which we have in India, and, arriving there
very shortly after the troops we heel sent to Chica, there
would have been a force of 10,000 Men, which would
have had a very considerable effect on the foitunee of
the war. I am very glad to hear that this militia force is
called into action to suyply the place of our regular gar-
risons. I think it is very much to be regretted that it
has become prevalent of late to look on the militia merely
as a means of recruiting the line. The highest character
of the militia, that they era the constitutional defeeders
of our country, ought never to be lost sight of. During
the late war it was to be regretted that , at no time
was there a militia regiment that was not pestered by a

parcel of recruiting agents, and that the. tone and charac•
ter of our militia regiments in the service was lessened

and degraded. All this might have been avoided, and
greater support given to the regular army if there had
been a nearer relation between the militia regiments and
the line. In the old revolutionary war there were certain
relations between the militia regimentsandthe regiments
.of the line which acted reciprocally and most beneficially
on eaeli other. The regiments of the line were recruited
from the militia, and the tone and character of the militia
regiments were much higher during the revolutionary
war than during the war with Russia. Complete militia
regiments at that time were enlisted for active service,
and I believe there was then a greater and more continu-
ous supply of men, although those arts of enlistment
, which were practised during the late war were not bad
!recourse to. However, the militia is to be embodied, and
that is a very wise and proper measure. I wish it had been
on a greater scale, but at the same time it is to be em
bodied for a great public purpose, and I have no doubt
the result will be highly satiatactory. It is unnecessary
for me t 3 enter into any discu-sion with regard to our
position in India. The gallant general has spoken on
that subject with authority and also with great courtesy
in reference to some observations which I recently ad-
dressed to the limes.. Nolaine that has since occurred
has at all modified the opinions to which I then gave
expression ; but I don't think it advisable or expedient
to enter into any further discussion on that subject. We
have only one object before us, and that is, so far as the
House of Commons is concerned, to let the Government
understand that we aro most anxious to forward all those
measures which are calculated to bring the efforts now
making'to suppress this mutiny to a successful termina-
tion. (Cheers) But in so doing we should remember
the responsibility which devolves on us all freely to
express our opinions if at any time we should think the
Government ara not acting in a manner tending to ego-
duce the results we so earnestly desire. I very much
doubt whether the suggestion of the gallant general with
respect to sending a steamboat to Cawnpore, armed as
he stated, could be carried into effect. But there is no
doubt that at this moment much depends on the fate
of Cawnpore. I think it is a much more i °portant ques-
tion than that of Delhi. There is a railroad from Aela-
habad to Cawnpore to the extent of 60 miles, and, al-
though the locomotives are liable to destruction from
local causes, it is still used as a tramroad. There will be
60 or 70 miles more, over which the troops would have
to march, and in a country where the population is
to a great extent in insurrection ; but it may be assumed
that in five or six days the force from Allahabad
would arrive at Cawnpore, and that would be the signal
for success. It appears to me that on the fate of Cawn-
pore much, if not everything depends. If we can main-
tain our post there until November, when the advance of
the army takes place, we may indulge hopes of success.
Brit in so doing it is of the utmost importance that we
should in November make an advance, both by the
Indus and through Bengal, which wilt demonstrate to
the whole peninsula of India that our force is compre-
hensive and irresistible. I trust the plans of her tvlejesty'a
Ministers will justify these expectation's. I am net
entirely satisfied, however, as to the sources from which
their support is to be gathered. The other night inquiry
was made as to what might be expected from the Cape.
We have a very considerable force at the Cape, and the
policy of the Government, which is to keep a large mili-
tary force at that point, is one calculated to exercise in-
fluence in emergencies similar to the present, But I
have never heard from Her Majesty's Ministers whether
we really are to expect any assistance or any contribu-
tion from the garrison of the Cape to this army which
we are collecting in India. The hon. and gallant general
the other night pressed on the house the expediency of
sending some regiments from the Cape, and the Secretary
of the Colonies, who followed him, I think, said the
Government had pointed out .the importance of this
policy to Sir George Grey, the Governor of the Cape,
and had left the matter to his discretion. I repeat, I
should like very much to know whether the Govern-
ment can tell U 3 whether the Governor of the
Cape is taking any steps in this emergency, and
what proportion of the forces under his control he
is prepared' to contribute t 3 our Indian army.
There is an impression abroad that the Governor of the
Caps is not inclined to see his forces diminished, and as
the importance of the question can hardly bo exaggerated
I should be glad if her Majesty's Ministers cool! satisfy
the house and the country upon that point. We may be
told there is souse danger of a Caffre war. Of course, if
we are officially informed that there is such danger we
must give great weight to the assertion, but from all the
information which reaches ma—and which is unofficial—
I should say that there is no danger of a Ceffre war.
Probably at this moment there is less expectation of such
a war than there has been for many years past, and I am
therefore desirous of knowing why eo many regiments
tots retained at the Cape at a crisis like the present-. I
ask this question because I remember that the Governor
of the Cape—a gen Leman of great energy, who has shown
on ninny occasions that he possesses qualities which en-
title him to cern:need—wag for some time Governor of
the settlement of New Zealand, and that during the
period of his governorship ho maintained the largest un-
itary force that could be assembled in that colony. At
one time there were at least six regiments in New Zea-
land, an I the prosperity of the colony aid the great in-
crease of revenue were perpetually pressed upon our
attention ; but this prosperity turned out to be mainly,
if not entirely, attributeble to the expenditure of the
large military force. I now find the same Governor
the Cape of Good Hope, with a still greater military
force. I know that the e:penditure of a regims•nt at the
Cape is, caicutatecl on the lowest estimate, 30,0001. a-
. peer ; and I can understand that a gentleman who has
the reputation of great energy, and who has a large
military force under his command, would feel —if it
were left to hie discretion very much indisposed
to decrease that force. I should, therefore, be glad
to learn whether her Majesty's Government—from gene-
ral infermetior, and upon their responsihility—havegiven
more definite direction 3 for the despatee of troops to In-
dia from the Cape than a mere appeal to the discretion of
the Governor. In touching on this subject I cannot help
referring to a point upon which I should have been glad
to hear the opinions of hon. gentlemen of the military
profession. I allude to the term of military service of
regiments in our colonies. Some of the regime, is sent to
our colonies are kept there a much le ter time than is
just or politic, or for the interests of the couuiry. I re-
member that at the beginning of the session, an hon.
friend of mine asked the noble lord whether it was
the intention of Government to recall the 45th regiment
from the Cape of Geed Hope, but the noble lord replied
that ha had nothing to do with the disposition of her
Majesty's trooee, and that the question was one for the
Bone Guards to determine. Tuts is an oceasion on
which that subject may be referred to, and I must say
that the po•itiou of the 45th—a reginfent of very high
character—ought not to be unnoticed in such a discus.
eion as the present. The usual term of service for an he.
fantry regiment in such a colony as the Cape is, I under-
stand, 10 years, but Vie 45th has been at the Cape for 15
years, and I believe there is no prospect of its relief. • Tne
consequences of such service, protracted beyond the in-
tentions of Government -and of the country, are most
serious and injurious; and if a regiment in these circum-
stances fele under a governor who likes to he at the head
of an army old to exerch,everygreat ii-flaence and autho-
rity the prospect of re ief is so slight that unless its posi-
tion is brought under the notice of such an aseembly as
this it is likely to remain without redress, Tne 45th regi-
ment, which went cut to the Cape in the expectation of
remaining there 10 years, has already been on the station
15 years. The men have no quarters; they are scattered
in detachments over South Africa, leading lives of con-
tinual hardship; yet they are Englishmen, officered by
Engiieh gentietnen, and there is no prospect held out to
them of any redress. At the cammenceneent of shls veer,
in May, I be love, there was a sort of unofficial announce-
ment that tbty were about to be relieved, and I am told
that the scene which tonic place between the officers and
men—such of them, at least, as could be collected, for
so scattered were the detachments that it would have
required two months to assemble the entire regi-
tuent—affected all those by whom it was witnessed.
I should be very glad to hear that they were going to
India to besiege Delhi or to relieve Cawnpore, After
undergoing years of toilsome duty they had no opportu
nity of gaining promotion in the Crimea, or of attaining
that distinction which all Englishmen covet. I believe
the position of this gallant regiment is trely heartrend-
ing, and I trust the Government will consider the -circum-
stances to which I have Belle] attention. The hon. and
gallant General who spoke in defence of the Government,
and who vindicates his friends in a manner which I
should be very sorry, were I in their position, to experi-
ence, has aceountel for the reduction of the military and
naval forces of the country on grounds which I °morose,
somewhat est inished Me. I understood front him that
the Government were fully sensible that the military
forces of the country ought to have been maintained in ,
much greater strength, but that the Howe of Commons
would not support the necessary estallshraente, and
that, notwithstanding the conviction of the Government
that reductions we: e iinpolitic and injurio-as, yet, prefer-
ring place and power to the policy which they thought
right, they yielded their convictions to a Parliamentary
necessity. Nom, I are not a supporter of her Majesty's
that
up,-;
Geverntnent, but if I had the honour of sitting behind
the noble for 1, I should do him and his colleagues the
justice of saying that they were never influenced by
pre-
set msuicnhistcryon, siod any h
:a
grave a subject be influenced only by their opinions as to
what was necessary for the advantage and welfare of the
rtionost.er I
M ainnistr sure
y, would the
onpr se
empire. I deny that rho members of Parliament
who have been refe'rred to ever exercised a y pi".
sure from without," or were not p-rfectly justified in
When we were engaged in a
the course they adopted.
expeesive and arduous struggle, during, which no
most
one can pretend that the 1101338 of Commons Ohl not give
the Government every support they required, the mein-
here who sat behind the Government and the Oppeeition
vied in placing at the disposal of Her Majesty's Mini,.
ters all the means which were necessary for bringing the
wbieh I now repeat,
that struggle to a successful issue. That object was attained.
Ihaat the
vebesfeotrteleenfepxoiefdpnie3_pinaugh iittsbno there might be,
objections to poilita of detail—wise such as to give us the
expectation of a long and permanent peace. What e as,
then, the duty of the House of Commons? Our Highest
function is that of guardians of the public purse. Surely,
when war had ceased, and when we were toll and be-
lieved that there was an expectation of an enduring
peace, our first duty was to enforce economy—and the
most rigid economy--oMpen the Government, and to di-
miuisli the pre sure of taxation upon the people as much
as Pasale- The only return we could make to the peo-
ple fir the seal and patriotism with which they came for-
ward in the emergency was by showing that, when the
crisis was past, we were mindful of our duty as stewards
of the public purse ; that we were not debauched by the
-habit which prevails in Parliltilellt during a time of war
cf easily voting public money ; but that we were prepared
',to enforce upon the Government a syetem of reduction and
This was economy. Tin
• the first duty of Parliament ; and it
was the first duty of Government if they believed that peace
was secured, to respond to our wishes. I say, therefore, so

far as the House of Commons was concerned, that we
acted most wisely in the course we took ; because whatex-
cites in emergencies a promo.: and passionate reap )nse to
the appeals-of the Government on the part of the com-
munity, who have been described by the noble lord as so
shortsighted, but the conviction that advantage will not
be taken of their generosity, and that when the desired
result has been accomplished their interests will be con-
sulted, and that they will be allowed to husbani their
resources which, if an emergency should again arise, can
atone enable them to afford similar assistance to the Go-
vernment ? It is the econe'y, the retrenchment, and
the reductions of taxation effected After a war which en-
able the community, when an emergency again arises,
to come promptly and powerfully to the aid of the Go-
vernment. I conceive, therefore, that when, as members
of the House of Commons, we impress upon theDovern
ment the necessity of reductions, we inerely do our duty;
and not only do we do our duty to our con- tituents, who
have the first claim upon our consideration, but gene•
rally and abstractedly we adopt a politic course, bee Luse
we enrich the community, and enable them, when a ne-
cessity again arises, to supply the resources which may
be required. There is some distinction between the posi-
tion of a mere member of Parliament and that of a Mi-
nister of the Crown. A member of Parliament deems it
his duty on the termination of a great struggle, and after
the commencement of peace, to enforce reduction and
retrenchment. Something more was to be expected from
the Minister of the Crown. He has sources of informa-
tion not open to us, and he has a policy in his mind of
which we are not the sharers. He has a responsibility on
him ten thousand times greater than all the members of
Parliament put together ; and if, the Minister believes
it to be not wise or expedient to effect reduction or re-

trenchment, the Minister under those circumstances is
hound to come forward, and if he has the conviction it
is not only his duty, but, in my opinion, it would be on
his part a duty which he could successfully fulfil, to ini-
pre-s that conviction on Parliament. If Parliament
pressed the Government for reductions which they be-
lieved.would be injurious to the country it would be in
the power of a Minister—and I am sure it would be in
the power of the noble lord, addressing the house in a
warning and 'monitory tone, without making any reve-
lations inconvenient to the public service—to make such
an impression on Parliament as to induce members to
relax in the efforts they were making and in the opinion
they were urging. I do not ray that her Majesty's
Ministers had a consciousness of the danger of the course
they were taking. I commenced by expressing my
perfect belief that they had not, though as to some p ants
of degree and time I might have some difference of
opinion ; but in the main the Ministers thought the time
had come when they thought economy ought to bs en-
forced and reduction practised. But did the cireum-
stances of the empire justify the Ministers in having
that opinion 'I I express my conviction that they did
not. I think the Ministers ought to have beer more
aware of tne condition of the Indian empire than they
were ; or if they were really aware of the -condition of
empire, I do not think the Ministers were ju4"fied in the
c ears° they pursued a, d recommended to Parliament.
It is easy to say that it is of no use now to inquire what
ie the cause of the convulsion which has taiten place.
Then we are told that. the events were such as no one
could guard against ; but if we maintain that • argu-
ment we put ourselves in a false position, for if these
things could happen without any human being an-
ticipating them, what use is there for any G. e
vernment I If • without the slightest expectation
twenty-four hours beforehand an insurrection can
take place extending over, a country nearly as large
as Europe, and with a population of 180,000,000 of
souls—if such a thing could happen without those
who are responsible for the administration of that
country having the slightest previous knowledge or sus-
picion ef it--I want to know of what use or value is the
Administration under cireurnstacces of that kind. Every
day something. oozes out whiCh shows that the Admiui-
stration of India ought to have been, if not absolutely
prepared for all that has occurred, most suspicious and
prescient of what _has happened. You cannot jeatify
now, when you are more acquainted with the circum•
itances—you cannot, with your knowledge of the in-
subordination of the Bengal army, justify that Admini-
stration in permitting a post like Delhi, the arsenal of
the Empire, to be garrisoned solely by naive troop,
when they must have bad information of the mystical
symbols of combination and conspiracy circulating in
that very city at the commencement of this year. These
are questions not very convenient new to urge, but when
attacks are made on members of Parliament because
they performed their duty, after the conclusion of the
war, in enforcing economy and retrenchment on Mini-
rere, and when it is said that the fault of our present
potation is due to members of Parliament doing their
duty, it is right for us in our defence to make these re-
marks, and to impress on the country other consideraa
tions besides those which were submitted by the hon.
acid gallant General. • I repeat, we did our duty in
enforcing economy on the Government, though it is very
much to be regretted, considering what has happened,
that we were successful in our policy. I doubt not
that the Government of this country acted fairly and
candidly, by the house in c mseeting to that great
reduction of taxation, and te those- general meesuree
of econousy which were a looted. They did be-
lieve, no doubt, that they had provided sufficiently
for all the exigencies of the country, but the Ministers
cannot relieve theCuselves from this grave responsibility
which devolves on them, for having, in c meequeece of
their fatal ignorance of the condition of a great portion
of her Maj,sty's. empire, and of their total negligence
and inadvertence, sanctioned the policy, which Parlia-
ment commenced, of reduction, at a time when it is quite
clear that if they had been in possession of that infor-
mation which .I maintain they ought to have been in
possession o', mu:it have appeared a most unwise policy,
and which has proved most injurious to this country.
Mr. V. SMITH—The present debate began by the
hon. and gallant general and by another hon. member
offering some useful suggestions on the question how the
revolt in India might be put an end to in a tone for
which the Government could not be otherwise than
grateful ; and the right lion, gentleman, when he began,
assumed the same tone, and, as I understood, deprecated
the discussion at the present time of the causes of the
Indian mutinies. At the close of his speech, however,
Inc. right hon. gentleman forgot his opening warning,
and fell into that line of observations in which he had on
a former occasion indulged. The right ben, gentleman
referred to the speech of the hon. and gallant member
for Calue, whom he represented as saying that the Go-
vernment, being perfectly aware of the great need of
troops, had cut down the force from fear of the House of
Commons. Now, I understood the hon. and gallaet gen-
thinan to say no such thing ; buy, at all events, I ain sure
the Government had no intention so to act. My neale
friend has stated what I believe to be a perfectly acknow-
legged constitutional doctrine, which the right hon, mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire has himself adopted—namely,
that, theug,h it is the duty of the House of Cerninoas
to enforce economy-on the Ministers, yet, if. the Midis
ters are aware that the state of units in Europe or in
any of her Majesty's dominions makes it fatal to diisai
nish the military forces,-they are bound to defy--if I
may use the expression—even the House of Commons,
and to force on the house those considerations which
appear to them important. The Minkstere, however,
were aware of no such considerationr. They proposed
a pewee establishment, which- they are sill disposed to
th nk was a Futfinient peace establishment, and which
happened to be above the peace establishment existing
before the commencement of the war. But the right,
hon..gentleman says that the 'Government ought to have
been aware of this all fir in In-lie. Now, if the right
hon. gentleman enters i- to that argument, and states
the reasons why he thinks so, I hope I shall be prepared
to meet him; but on the present occe- ion he had only
adverted to one circumstance in connexion with that
point, and that is that Delhi, being a large arsenal, had
been left uoproteete l by European troops. Now, if the
Government in 1857 could haie been aware of any
danger existing in that circumstance, every Govern-
Ment for the last 20 or" 30 years ought to have been
equally cognizant of it ; but they never were, and I
deny that there existed any particular circumstances
attracting the attention of Government to the un-
protected state of Delhi. It was ale aye believed
throughout India that Delhi was an unsafe and
unhealthy station for European troops, aed Sir C.
Napier, whose opinioni. on Indian affairs were much
referred to, desired a large arsenal there, to be
protected by 12 native regiments, and never proposed
to place European troops at that station. This may be
a question of policy, but neither the present nor preced-
ing Governments should be blamed eith reference to
this point. The right hon. gentleman has defended
himself from a supposed attack for having enforced
economy. Tne Gevernmeut do net make any charge
. against him upon that ground, iftiey think it is tho
duty of a member of the House of Commons to consider
economy iu all these matters, ane when we are told
that the Government diminished the forces too much I
refer in reply to the Btatetnent of my noble aieucl, who
pointed out that, though the House might tell the Go-
vernment that it would vote a larger number of troops,
yet the House wee not ready to tell him that it would
vote larger ways and means to maintain them. Hon.
members surely cannot have forgotten the war 91. The
country called out to the Government to get rid of that
war 91, and I think tbat.tbat cry was perfectly, fair at
the time, after the termination of all the calamities
which had occurred, and there being no circumstances
in Europe or in any of Her Majesty's pes,sessions
which indicatel Any _cause of alarm rendering it neces-
sary to keep up that tax. . If, therefore, any minister
had come down to the House under those circumstances
and stated that he would n. 4 take off the war 91., be-
cause the arsenal of Delhi was unprotected by European
troops, such a plea -Would have been scouted by the
House of Commons, and he would have been accused of
putting it- forward merely for the purpose of keeping
up large establishments. It would Lave been said this
was a plain imposition on the part of the Government,
for no outbreak there could possibly be anticipated.
The right hen, gentleman referred to a statement made
by my noble friend the member for the city of London,
who expressed his surprise—at which I do not yloncier
—that, considering all the inventions of modern science,
we should have no better means of despatching troops to
India than by sailing vessels. The asitndtio,, hownie,r,
is not quite accurate, fk,r great care was taken is the
cohsideraion-of this question, and a number of troops
were sent out in screw reamers, the ethers being sent
ih clippers amid sailing vessels. But the right honourable
gentleman fergets that there acre many advantages in
sending out the troops 1.3 r good clippers. They were
not only more economical--which I admit is not itself
a sufficient consideration—but regard being had to the
season of the year the pas. age iaas likely to be made by .
tnern in 70 days as by the screw steamers- themselves.
Every consideration wes g ven to the matter with the
view of s xpediting the transport of troops to India, and
considering the season Of the year and other circumstan-
°es the clippers were thotight to be rather better than
steamers. With regard to the question whether the

troops ought to have been sent through Egypt the house
must- look at all the circumstances. It we had loan
steamers in the Rod Sea to cenvey the troops from Suez
to India, that would have been the ret-se expeditious
mode of transit, and we might have overcame the politi-
cal difficulties attendant upon the pa-sage of troops
through a foreign country. But we bad no such steam-
ers ready, and 7f we had communicated with the Indian
Government, desiring that they should be sent, cr if we
had sent them ourselves we should have lost as much
time as in sending the troops by the usual route. There
. was another reason in the unhealthiness of the Red Sea
at that season of the year, which rendered it undesirable
to send troops by this route. We could not by any de-
gree of foresigbt haye been provided with ships at Suez,
nor, if we bad sent out screw steamers, would there
have been a sufficient provision of coal at the usual coal-
ing stations, since the coal provided for those steamers
which usually run :would have been entirely insufficient
for the large system of transport rendered necessary by
the recent occurrences. There has, therefore, been no
neglect of the modern inventions of science, nor any of
that duniess, ignorance, or prejudice which might he
presurtied. All that can be said is that, under the cir-
cumstances, we have not been able to deal with the mo•
dern inventions of science so amply as we might other-
wise have done, Then the right hon, gentleman says
that troops 'ought to have been sent from India from the
Cape. I can assure him that the Government lost no time
in sending the most positive instructions to Sir G. Grey
at the Cape to for /yarn two regiments immediately to
India. It has been left in Sir G. Grey's discretion to
send more than two regiments, or not, but he is in-
structed to send as many more as he can spare. I
do not think that more distinct instructions could
have been sent to the Governor of the Cape. At the same
time it happens by a curious coinci lence that lord Elphin-
stone, the Governor of Bombay, with an energy and dis-
cretion that cannot be too highly applauded, sent for two
regiments from the Cape, and also despatched vessels
whereby they might be forwarded to Bombay without de-
lay. (H-ar.) Ido not think, therefore, that the Gov-
ernment can be justly charged with any want of energy
and foresight in respect to the Cape. But the right hon.
gentleman has thrown out a charge and has led us by im-
plication to suppose that Governor Sir G. Grey is not
likely to act on these instructions, or to send as many
troops from the colony as ho can spare. I have the honour
of Governor Grey's acquaintance, and I do not believe
there is any man more ready to act on his own responsi-
bility. Sir G. Grey is not only a-man of judgment, but of
undoubted nerve and high courage. He is not likely to be
alarmed at the position of affairs in the colony, and there
is no doubt that if he can spare more than two regiments
ho will send them to India. Governor Grey in all the
offices he has filled has executed his duties to the satisfac-
tion of his superiors and the public. I happened to be
attached to the Colonial-office when he was first appointed
to a colonial government by my noble friend the member
for the city of London. That appointment was given to
him from a knowledge of the energy and skill he had dis-
played in his journeys in Western Australia. At that
time Goveruor Grey was unknown to my noble friend
(Lord J. Russell), but every Colonial Secretary retained
him in some colonial government until he was ap-
pointed Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, in which
post he has acted with courage, spirit, and judgment.
(Hear, hear.) My hon. and gallant triend the member
for Westminster has referred to the native Princes of
India, and he says that we ought to manifest our satis-
faction with their se, vices and fidelity by giving them
an increase of territory. Well, that may come here-
after, but it is at present doubtful whether it would be
expedient to exhibit in that manner our acknowledgment
of their conduct. Many of the native princes have be-
haved with great gallantry, generosity, and friendship
to the Government of India. Thu hon, and gallant
,gentleman has referred to Holkar. That chief has, no
doubt, maintained his allegiance and behaved with sin-
cerity to the Government of India, but it also happens
that Holkar's troops have all turned against us; and it
would therefore, be rather prom iture to give him an in-
crease of territory. [Sir 1). L. EVANS---" These troops
have been put upon, him."] They are supposed to be under
him, and in such a state of things it would be premature
to give inereased territory to any chiefs who have exhibited
their goodwill in so unsupported a manner. Many of the
suggestions of my hon. and gallant friend will be valuable
as objects of future policy. The hon. and galant gentle-
man the member for Chatham (Sir F. Smith) recommends
us to send out sappers and miners. That suggestion, com-
ing from so experienced an authority, no doubt deserves,
and will receive due attention. The right hon. gentleman
has suggested that steps ought to be taken for the relief of
Cawnpore. That is a question which it would be difficult
to enter fain here ; but I have no doubt that by this time
Cawnporer is relieved. I regard the remarks of my hen.
and gallant friend as suggestions rather than_attacke upon
her Majesty's Government ; but when my hon. and gallant
friend says that he agrees with the right hon. gentleman
the member for Buckinghamshire in thinking that the
Government ought to provide for a second and third' cam-
paign (Sir. D. L. EVANS —" A second candpaign"), I must
state that the Government have provided a force which
they consider sufficient, and which -they are assured by all
the authorities upon Indian subjects will be amply suffi-
cient to extinguish the flame of iusurrsction in ladle. We
hive sent ounan officer of undoubted ability--Sir C. Camp-
bell-to take the command of the army in India. Thera
is already in the command of that army Sir Pi Grant, also
a gentleman of undoubted ability, runt well acquainted
with the Indian army.- It would not be wise to predict
the course which it may be necessary to pursue hereafter,
The Government will desp itch a-sufficient force to India,
but before they send the largo reinforcements which some
persons think necessary it may appear, that the distin-
guished officers to whom I have alluded may be of a
different opinion. We shall be prepared to act on the
suggestion of those officers who are most competent to in-
form us, but I hope that the house and the country will
feel assured that there has been no lack of consideration as
to the amount of force necessary to put an end to the re-
volt. An ample fo'ree has been sent out for this purpose,
and our reinforcements will arrive at the boss; seas-in of the
year. They will, I cannot doubt, display, those military
qualities which lead to success, and, nithough I would not
hold out hopes that might be falsified by the event, I will
assure the house that this question has not been treated
lightly by Her Majesty's Government, but has been re-
garded by them as one of thti most serious events that has
ever occurred to this country. (Hear, hear.) These
difficulties wig, however, be surmounted, for I am certain
we shall be backed by the house in every endeavour to
overcome them. (Cheers) And when Her Majesty's
Government turn their minds to the -reorganisation of the
Indian army, and to the question whether it will not be
their duty, by a large addition to the European force in
that-country, to keep down the appearance of insurrection
on the pirb of the native regiments, they will at the same
time consider by what means they can best secure and ad-
vance the happiness, comfort, and wellbeing of the natives
of India. (Cheer,;,)
• Mr. HENLEY said it would be out of place for him to
offer an opinion on military affairs, but he felt hound to
take some notice of the speech of the hon: and gallant
member for Caine (Sir W. Williams). He did not know
whether the hon. and gallant gentleman intended to make
an attack upon his friends on the Ministerial benches
for providing insufficient means for putting down this re-
volt, but he did make an attack upon the House of Com-
mons for having put a pressure upon the Government and
for having
emit down the establishments too low, and
he, for one, protested against any such conclusion. What
had since taken place completely negatived such a con-
clusion, 'unless, biassed, the hon. ant gallant gentleman
(General Williaens) was of opinion that the Government
ought to brave foreseen the danger of this outbreak in India.
The Government wore now despatching between 20,000 and
30,000 mon to the East, and yet they had not felt it neces-
sary to. call out the militiae-they had merely asked for the
power to cal it out at some future period. Surely, when
it had furnished the means in time of peace of sending out
a force of 20.000 or 30,000 men to the other end of the
globe, the House of Commons could not fairly be charged
with having cut- down the establishments of the country
too fir. The right hen. gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) had
confoanded. two things that were totally distinct. When
asked why a European force had not been stationed at
Delhi, the right hon, gentleman's answer, was, that that
could not be done consistently with the remission of " the
war ninepence." Now, whatever might have been the in-
formation possessed by -the Government as to the neenisity
for garrisoning the seat of the ancient Mogul empire, it was
plain that the war ninepence could have bad no possible
connexion-with the matter, because they all knew, and the
noble lord the Prime Minister had that very night assured
them, that the coat of providing additional regiments for
India fell exclusively upon the Indian treasury. (Hear,
hear.) He denied, then, that pressure had been put upon-
the Government by any part of the House to compel them
to reduce the military force of the country below the
proper limits. Whether the Government might have had
,reason to anticipate such an outbreak aahad since occurred
in the East was quite another question, into which he
would not now enter: Bat whatever might ba the require-
ments of India, that House ought not to be reproached
with having forced the GoVernment to cut down the mili-
tary strength of the kingdom to a point incompatible with
the national safety and Ininour. (Hear, hear.) Indeed,
the noble lord the First Minister had himself entirely ex-
onerated the House of Commons from the charge which
the hen. and gallant gentleman had thought lit to bring
against it.
General WILLIAMS complained that what he had said
ha 1 beers misapprel ended by two right hen. gentlemen who
had addressed the-House. He beet made no attack upon
the House of Commons. Ho had merely stated his opinion,
as a member of that assembly, that the re,tuctions, which
had been effected wore unfortunate and precipitate. And
he bad aided, so great was the pressure from without, that
if the Government had thought it necessary to have a
larger body of troops, they would not, from the Tirit of
certain parties in the house, have been able to obtain them.
Sir D. L. EVANS explained that what he had said in
regard to Idolkar was, that that clitef had neon personally.
faithful to us, and that he had [Toyed his fidelity by send-
ing his treasure from In flora, his own capital, to our fort
atllabow. He was quite aware, however, that Holkar's
regiments had mutinied.
Mr. DISRAELI also explained that the President of the
Board of Control hal attributed to him, in regard to a
third campaign, the very reverse of what he had really
stated. What he had said was that they should take care
to finish their operations in the second campaign, so as to
preclude the necessity of a third.
Mr. SPOONER animativertel on the absence from the
speeches of the First Minister and the President of the
Board of Control of any recognition of our entire depend-
ence, for the success of our measures to quell the revolt in
India, upon the blessing of Divine Providence.
The bill was then read a third time and passed.

DULWICH COLLEGE BILL.
Mr. LOCKE presented a petition from the parishes of
St. Both10),8t. Saviour, St. George',-, Southwark, and
Camberwell, praying that their right to elect two gover-
nors each to take part in the management of Dulwich Col-
lege should b 3 continued to them.
11r. BAINES, in-moving that the Lords' amenlmonts
to this bill he- now read, said he should move that the
house should agree to rill tho Lords' amendinente to tha
bill, with the exception of that which reduced the-number,
of elected goveruors by the four pari,hes interested, from
eight to four. At the proper time he wool 1 move that the
Cornmons insist upon the number of guardians, from the
parishes in question, should be eight. ,When the bill first
came to the Commons there N; as a scheme for a governing
body by which there was to be one elected guardian from
parishes in question with it nominated
en.ditti,arazalst
each of the
guar-
diais. The bill was referred to a select ceolemacnti
was recommended that the numbers of
CL t it there
should be two hour each of the parishes:
tins state. the
should be "IG nominated guardian-, ; anti ita
bill was rout to the llonse of Lords. Their lord
ever, altered the governing body to the ol•cil nunisbeirPBo)fhOwur-
elected guaidis.ns, and l t nominated gnat tans. Well, be
did not object to the numbers of the non- elected being re-,
duc3d, but he 'thought the parishes had a right to two
'goardiani eaTh, as it was proved that such a as the desire
of the original founder of the college. This was the r. a ion

why he should ask the house, at the proper time, to insist
upon their amenitnent in reference to the- eight elected
memb 3,5, aid to disagree with the Lords' atneudnieut on
the gubject •

The timeudtnent of the Lords in respect to the nomi-
nated guardians was then a_re,,d to.
Mr. BAINES then moved that the Commons insist
upon their amendment in respect to the right of the four
parishes named to elect two guardians each, and to dis-
agree
with the Lords' amendment on the subject.
Mr. KNIGHT moved the adjournment of the debate,
and said that thefellows of thecollege had misappropriated
the property entrusted to their charge, and the compact
which had now been entered into was one of the worst
•
that could possibly be devised. (Hear, heir.)
Sir G. GREY said the bill had been carefully consi-
dered by select committees of b. th this house and the
House of Lords, and he did not think this was the time to
discuss the merits of the bill. The only question was,
whether they would agree to an amendment of the House
of Lords, whether there should be eight members in the
governing bodies of the parishes instead of four, and he
hoped the discussion would be confined to that point.
The amendment was ultimately withdrawn, and Mr.
Baines's motion agreed to.
The several amendments were then gone through, the
house resolving to insist upon certain of them, and not to
insist upon others.
A committee was then nominated to consist of Mr.
Baines, Mr. Miller, Mr. Williams, and Mr. Cox, to con-
fer with the House of Lords on the subj-ct, and it was
resolved that the committee meet forthwith.
CROWDED DWELLINGS PREVENTION BILL.
Mr. COWPER said he had come to the resolution to
withdraw this bill, feeling that in the last week of a pro-
tracted session the opponents of the measure had a power
commensurate more with their pertinacity than with their •
numbers. The opposition in the present instance had this
peculiarity, that it came mainly from hon. members who
represented thosl parts of the metropolis in which evasions
of the law were most frequent, and in which the greatest
number of lodging-houses were found, to the injury of
health and the detriment of morality. Under these cir-
cumstances he begged to move that the order for going
into committee upon the bill be discharged.
Mr. AYRTON regretted that the right hon. gentleman
had not done a graceful thing in a graceful manner, but
had considered it necessary to make remarks as uncalled
for as they were unfounded. The right hon. gentle,oao,
had no doubt withdrawn the bill because he had disco-
vered that it was entirely erroneous from beginning to end,
that it would not carry out his professed object, and that
it was not in the least degree necessary. The hon. and.
learned gentleman concluded by statin; that he intended
to give a notice of motion which he believed would go to
the root of the evil.
The order was then discharged.
FAIRS AND MARKETS (IRELAND).

Mr. HERBERT obtaiued leave to 'introduce a 'bill, with
a view to its being printed, for regulating fairs and mar-
kets in Ireland.
AUSTRALIAN POSTAL SERVICE.

Mr. MACARTNEY moved for an address for copy of
any contract entered intu with the European and Colum-
bian Steam Co. or the European and Australian Royal
Mail Co., in pursuance of a tender bearing date the 11th
June;lBs6, and signed by John Orr Ewing, for conveying
the Australian mails from England to Melbourne via;
Southampton, Alexandria, and Suez ; returns setting
forth the number of days occupied in each voyage out rend
home, separating the portions of the route between South.*
ampton and Alexandria from that between Suez and
Melbourne ; also a list of penalties incurred by reason of
non-arrival according to contract, and the amount (if any)
siren, :y levied or deducted from the contractors' remune-
ration ; of the name, tonnage, and horse-power of all
vessels employed by virtue of the said contract in the
Australian postal service ; and copies of all communica-
tions between the Treasury, the directors of the European
and AusLrallin Royal Mail Company, and of the Royal
Mail Steampacket Company, with the view of ainalga•
matins said companies, to enable them to continue the
mail service to Australia and the West Indies as one emu.
puny, and the terms proposed by the Government or the
said united company for performance of the postal services
now performed by those companies separately.
The hon. member was proceeding to state what he be*
lioved to have been a failure on the part of the present
contracting company to comply with the conditions of their
contract, when he was informed that his motion was not
opposed, and he thereupon resumed his seat after moving as
• above.
Mr. WILSON said there was no objection to give the
returns which were asked for, but he could assure the how
member that although these had been one 'or two failures
incidental to a new company, yet upon the whole the ser-
vice had hitherto been satisfactorily performe.l. The
Government had exacted the penalties prescribed for an!
breach of the terms of the undertaking, and would con'
tinne strictly to enforce the contract, _
Mr. CONINGHANI wished to know in what manner
the public would be benefited by the amalgamation of the
two great steam companies which bad united to carry out
this contract. It was said that great favouritism had beau
shown, and he believed there was good ground for the
statement. The companies had not done their work, and
the system of penalties which was supposed to keep there
in check was a mere fiction. •
Mr. WILSON said that the question of the amalgams*
Con of thetwo companies had not come before him officially
but when it did it would be considered solely with a view
to the public interest.
The returns wero agreed to.
MILITARY EXECUTIONS IN INDIA.
Mr. RICHARDSON moved for a return of the number
of mutinous soldiers belonging to the Indian army who had
been blown from the cannon's mouth since the last revolt
began, and the places and under whose orders the% execue
tions took place ; and asked whether such executions were
in alcordance with the rules of military discipline in In•
dial
The hon. gentleman was unable to fen's a sesaader for
his motion,_and it was therefore not put, nor was any au.
ewer given to the question with which he concluded. Tltia
r,solt was received with cheers from all parts of the ,outol•
The house then adjourned at half-past 10 o'clock. •

Country Markets.

MANCHESTER-AuG. 20.

With an average attendance this morning there was onlf
a limited inquiry for wheat and flour, at an a wawa of 24
per qr. for English, and 3,1 per Nibs on American, and 1
to 2s per sack on the ratter since this day se'nnight. Ostil
and oatmeal were both in request, at extreme rates. Beenl
and Indian eorn unchanged.

NEWARK—AUG. 19.
We had a good supply of old wheat, which made n per
qr over last week's prices. Little new wheat brought for*
wan].
Wheat, white 65s to 70s, red 633 to 618; barley, malting
45s to 50s, grinding 35s to 365; oats, 24st. 36s to 38s, 22sts
32s to 31s; beans, 4-48 to 52s ; malt, 73s to 80s ; peas, 4611
to 488; tares, 54s to 58s per qr.
New white wheat 67s to 708; new red, 64s to 665.