The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-26 00:00:00

LAND SCHEME.

In reply to Mr. HENLEY,

Mr. U'i3ONNOR said he would avail himself of the
earliest opportunity to bring in a Bill on tho
National Land Scheme.

Mr. HENLEY said, the Hon. Gentleman bad not an-
swered the question whether the Bill would be a private
or a public Bill. He had only said that the Bill would
be well drawn.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR bad been told that it must depend
upon the advice he should receive whether it would be a
public or a private Bill.
REDUCTION OF SALARIES.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER wished to ask the Noble Lord
opposite whether he intended to persevere with the Bill
for the reduction of the salaries of the Judges of the
Qt1031:1'8 Bench and Common Plcal, or whether it was
proposed to refer it to the Committee which the Noble
Lord llad given notice of.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it would be necessary
to go on with the Bill, as Lord Denman for some time
past had been receiving 2,0004 a year less than his legal
salary.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER had understood the. Noble Lord
to say that the Committee would be to inquire into the
salaries of the judges, diplomatic officers, and of the
offices held by Members of the House. Now, would
the Committee have power to suggest reductions ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Committee would be
authorised•to name redactions, but of course the mine"
tions would be prospective.
COAL PIT EXPLOSION.
Mr. WYLD wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
the Secretary for the Home Department, whether it was
his intention to select an inspector to investigate the
circumstances attending the recent explosion, which
destroyed thirteen lives.
Sir G. GREY said an application had been made
to him by the parties to nominate an inspector.
EXTRAMURAL BURIALS.:

Lord DUDLEY STUART wished to ask the Right
Honourable Gentleman when he intended to introduce
his measure relating to extramurisl burials.
Sir G. GREY replied as early after Easter as possible.

CRIMINAL RETURNS.
Mr. STANFORD wished to ask the Secretary of
State for the Home Department whether instructions
to the statistical department of the Board of Trade
might not be given so as to insure more eomplete crimi-
nal returns for the United Kingdom.
Mr. LA BOUCHERE admitted that the returns did
not contain all the information the public ought to have
on the subject, but the question of extending the returns
was now under consideration.
THE GOLD COAST.
Mr. COBDEN understood that the extension of Bri-
tish territories on the Gold Coast of Africa bad been
recently negotiated, and he wished to know whether an
opportunity would be afforded the House of discussing
the policy of that extension of territory.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to gay ghat

a vote wi uld he taken to complete the purchase, and
then a discussion might he t drib on its pelicy.
Mr. COBDEN gave notice that he should take the
sense of the House after Easter as to the policy of pur-
ehasing the fetes at all.
DUCHIES OF CORNWALL AND LANCASTER.
Mr. TRELAWNY rose to move for a Crpt:mt.°e to
inquire to whet extent the public are entided to claim
an interest, present or prospective, in the
management of the Duchies of Cornwall arid Lan•
caster, with respect to which returns are annually
Made to this House, and, with regard to the Duchy
of Cornwall in particular, to inquire where
its accumulations are invested; who is the heir of per-
sonal estate to the Prince of Wales; whether Duchy
dues from mines are reserved in minerals or money, and
whether they are rated to the poor; whether mines are
directly worked by the Duchy officers ; what
number of claims to estates have bean made
and not sustained during the last six years; whether
there is any good reason for the direct exception of
certain kinds of property in the Duchy Act of 1544
(such as royalCes, franchises, and estuaries), from the sta-
tutory provision for the quiet of titles, now applied to
Crown property, to private property, and most descrip-
tions of Duchy property; and, lastly, whether the manage-
ment of the Duchy estate has been satisfactory as
regards the public, fair as regards its own tensnti, or pro-
ductive of improsetnent in the state of the rural popula-
tion? The Hon. Gentleman, who was very imperfectly
beard in the gallery, owing to the conversation going on
in the House, and the low tine in which he spoke. was
Understcod to disclaim all idea of interfering with the
prerogatives of the Crown. He then pointed out the
mismanagement that existed in the revenues, and the
heavy debts entailed upon the Duchy of Cornwall by a
former Prince of Wales, and urged upon the House the
necessity of adopting some measure to prevent a recur-
rence of these abuses. The House was possibly not
aware that there were certain tin dues levied, from
which a large revenue was derived, amounting in eight
years to the sum of 124,0001. By the Ist and 2nd Vice,
arrangements were made to compensate the Duchy for
giving them up. The Hon. Gentleman also reterred to
the accounts of the Duchy of Lancaster, in which he
observed that there were very large sums regarding the
expenditure of which no explanation whatever was given.
He also referred to the evidence of Mr. Anderson, who
had been sent by the Treasury to inquire into the ex-
penditure of the Duchy, in support of his argument, and
complained that the Duchy had undertaken to work a
mine which they were compelled to abandon at the end
of two years, after having lost 20,0001. by it. He hoped
the House would give him the Committee which be
asked, as there were a great many matters connected
with the subject which it concerned the public to be
fully acquainted with, and which called for investigation.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving for the appoint-
ment of a Committee.
This motion having been seconded,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that if the
House would but reflect a little upon the circumstances
of the case, they would see no ground whatever for
granting any such inquiry as had been demanded. The
grounds upon which the motion was made were twofold
--first, that there was mismanagement of the property;
and, secondly, that there were great acts of oppression
committed by those who had the management of the
property. It was manifest that the House could have
no right to inquire into the management of any pro-
perty unless it was one of a public character. This,
however, was private property. It was vested in the
Crown until there was an heir-apparent, when it became
his solo and exclusive property. The heir-apparent was
born Duke of Cornwall, not created so; and he had from
the time of his birth the absolute power of disposing of
the revenues of the Duchy until he became Sovereign of
the kingdom. He (the Solicitor-General) could not,
therefore, see any difference between this and any
other private property, except that it was held by
person of the most exalted rank in the country.
It was true that, by an Act passed in the reign of
the present Sovereign, it was provided that the accounts
of the Duchy should be annually submitted to the Com-
missioners of the Treasury. But the obvious reason of
that provision was to insure the proper management of
the property for the benefit of the heir. The Honourable
Member said that when the Prince of Wales came of
age he would be entitled to ask that House for an allow-
ance from the public treasury, and that, therefore, the
House had a right to make these inquiries. Ile (the
Solicitor General) denied that they could have any such
right. Returns were made every year, showing how
the property was managed; and there were no grounds
for supposing that there was any such mismanagement
Its had been alleged. By the statement before him it
appeared that there was a great reduction made in the
salaries and charges connected with this property since
the accession of her Majesty to the throne. The average
expenses for the six years before were as follow:
For salaries and remuneration of public officers and
servants, 8,6171, whereas this item was now re-
duced to 2,500/. The solicitors' charges averaged
4,1021. For the year 1849 the law expenses were only 271.
The charge for holding courts, 2631. 18s. There was
nothing now paid under this head. A saving was thus
effected amounting to 10,672/. There was, no doubt, an
increase in one item, in consequence of paying annuities
to superannuated officers, which amounted to 2,1961.
These allowances in 1836 were 840/4 but in 1849 they
amounted to 2,196/. The property was now managed
by a council, who carried on the affairs of the Duchy
with great care and attention, without fee or reward.
The Chancellor of the Duchy, who formerly received
500/, was now represented by Mr. Pemberton Leigh
without any salary. The Surveyor-General, who f re-
medy received 1,6001 a year, was now only paid 1,1)00/.
During the time of William IV. a considerable amount
of money was raised by granting a number of uew lives
in the leases, and a diminution of the property wiie pro-
duced in consequence, but it had increased progressively
of late years. From the year 1750, from 9,000/. and
upwards, it had increased to 19,000/ a year up to the time
of George IV. At the time of William IV. it amounted
to 32,0001. a year, and in the time of the Prince of
Wales it averaged 22,0001. a year. He admitted that
even though a property be of a private character, yet if
it be managed in such a manner as to give rise to acts
of cruelty or oppression, it might form a proper subject
of inquiry. But if the Hon. Member called for an inquiry
on this ground, he ought to be prepared to specify all
those acts of oppression complained of. It was no use
Making general complaints as to the non-renewal of
leases after the investment of much capital upon the
property, for that was the case with every other lease-
hold property. It was not the duty of this House to
inquire into any such complaints against a landlord
who chose to exercise his undisputed right of not re-
newing a tenant's lease. So long as the law empowered
him to act so, so long could he exercise the right with-
out the interference of that House. He submitted that
this Committee ought not to be granted, because this
was strictly private property, and managed for a private
individual, although of the most exalted position, and for
the other reasons he had stated.
Mr. BOUVERIE thought that if there be any pro-
perty that called for public investigation it was the
Duchy of Cornwall. This was a property created by
Act of Parliament, dealt with by Act of Parliament,
and placed under the management of trustees
appointed by Act of Parliament. As the time of the
establishment of Queen Anne's civil list it was
expressly assigned to the Sovereign for the mainte-
nance of the dignity and honour of the Crown. The
public had a most direct interest in the question. If it
pleased God that the heir-apparent should come to man's
estate, this House would be called upon to make provi-
sion for the maintenance of his dignity. This was an
appanage of the Prince of %Vales, given to
in himthe course
by Act
ot Parliament; and it might so happen that,
of years, the property might so accumulate as to render
it altogether unnecessary for Parliament to make any
public provision for him. So much for the right of the
House of Commons to inquire into the Duchy of Corn-
wall. The office of the duchy was a public office—it
Was in Somerset House, and paid no rent. But the Acts
of Parliament dealing with the duchy were not private
Bills, but public Acts dealing with public property. It
was, therefore, not at all to be compared with private
property, nor to be treated as private property. What
was the difference of the right of Parliament to deal
with the inheritance of the Crown ;lands and the Duchy
of Cornwall?—(llear. hear.) He had in his hand the
report of the annual accounts laid before Parliament
respecting the duchy; and from these it appeared to
him that the trustees had been doing that which they
had no legel right to do. On the face of the account
there had transactions taken place not justified by Act
of Parliament, and these be said afforded grounds for
inquiry by the House of Commons. In eight years
there was an income of 354,000/., and the expenditure in
salaries, management, and law expenses, was 93,000/.
As to the Duchy of Lancaster, the accounts were more
unsatisfactory than the Duchy of Cornwall; and it was
extraordinary to find the Whigs, the descendants of
Burke and Fox, contending that Parliament had not a
right to inquire into them and deal with them. He re-
ferred to the opinion of Mr. Fox, showing that if Par-
liament were denied that right it would amount to a
dissolution of the Government. By the present system
12,000/. only came to her Majesty out of an income of
32,000/. Under these circumstances he felt bound to
support the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. P. WOOD said the consideration for them was,
whether the House was at that moment justified in en-
tering into an inquiry as to properties, one of which was
settled as the property of her Majesty, and the other
the property of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales.
The Duchy of Cornwall was private property, and had
always been private property; and in this it differed
from the duchy of Lancaster. The persons who ma-
naged these properties were accountable to those for
whose benefit they managed it. Henry IV. had the pro-
perty of the Duchy of Lancasteroriginally, and the Act he
passed was altered by Edward IV.; and under that Act
the property had always passed to his heirs being Kings
of England. Let them suppose the property to be mis-
managed, the public would lose nothing by it, though
the Queen might lose in one case, and the Prince of
Wales in the other. They would to have the matter in-
vestigated it they thought their properties badly man-
aged. As Vice-Chancellor of the Duchy, he could say,
though receiving 600/. a year for it, he would not con-
tinue to hold the office unless he could produce reforms
in these courts. He was anxious to have reforms there
such as were to be now conceded in Ireland, and must
ere long be extended to the High Court of Chancery in
England.--(ti ear.)
Sir R. PEEL said that some experience in Parlia-
mentary discussions had made him aware that he did a
very unwise thing who spoke in the House of Commons,
and who attempted, either to affirm or deny the right of
the House of Commons to do aisy one particular thing.—
(Laughter.) The right of the H of Commons
might be very extensive; but then the question ought to
be as to the expediency of exercising a right, rather than
an inquiry into the right to do so.—(Elear.) When
it was said that the House of Commons was interested
in instituting or making such an inquiry, a distinction
was to be drawn between that pit lion of the property
of the Crown which was assigned to the public in
lieu of the (ATLI Let, and Owe properties, ouch as 010

Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, which were reserved
for the Crown. As to otter portions of the Crown pro-
perky, the public clearly heel a riaht to make an inquiry,
for the public had a direct, manifest, and present in-
t-res' in these revenues, and in seeing that they were
prorrly managed.—(hear, hear.) The case, however,
of the Duchy of Lancaster and the duchy of Cornwall
w•-re etc irly placed upon different grounds, for when the
civil list Was granted, the management of them was re•
served to the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) Such property,
too, it would be better to lease to the management of
the Crown than institute any inquiry respecting it, un•
less there is as el' ar and signal proof afforded for the se
curity of such an irquiry. He was not one to deny, not-
withstanding the special nature of this property, that if
its revenues were used for corrupt purposes:, if they
were erossly mismanaged, or if the law expenditure
was wasteful and extravacant—in such a case he did
net mean to say that the House o Commons would not
base a right to institute au inquiry—(Hear, hear)—
hut then he positively denied that any such presump-
tion could be rnede, or any such ieferente could be
drawn, with respect to the management cf this property.
He had the honour in the Duchy of Cornwall of being a
trustee fur his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, for
receiving the accumulations of the property, and ins eet-
ing them in the funds ; and thus he said that it was his
belief that there was no property, public or private,
better managed than the property of the Duchy of Corn-
wall.—(Hear.) He looked to the persons who were
concerned in the management of that property—to a
person like Mr. Pemberton Leigh—to a gentleman of
his high character who spoke last—men of their high
station and character, who willingly devoted themselves
to that service. When, he said, he considered these
things. be deprecated any inquiry which might deprive
the Crown of men of the valuable services Red high sta-
tion of Mr. Pemberton Leigh and the Hon. and Learned
Member (Mr.. Wood.) What were the facts ? In the
Duchy of Cornwall during the late reign high salaries
were given to men holding Parliamentary offices con-
nected with the Administration. These were, during the
reign of William IV., 8,6771.; and the present charges for
salaries were 2,5001. The charges for law expenses for nine
years, up to 1840, were 4,1801. Now the greater part
f the law expenses, by a recent arrangement, were, for
the year 1849, not more—that wOS, for the solicitor's
hill—than 271.—(Hear.) A great increase had taken
place in the superannuation allowances; but these were
granted for the express purpose of diminishing the number
of officers, and of retaining only those that were bona fide
concerned in the public administration of the duchy.—
(Hear.) But then some complaint had been made with
respect to the leases. He admitted that there had been
great laxity with respect to the management of the
estate—that every one was looking for what he could
get out of it• It was said, " the Crown must act libe-
rally—the Crown must deal with great indulgence to
those that are on its estates."—(Hear.) A different
system now prevailed. It was desired to make as much
of the property as they possibly could. Instead of
taking money by fines, lives on leases were refused, and
the value of the property was now annually realised, so
as to admit of the property being made as much of
as possible, and of thus diminishing any future
charge that should be placed upon the country
when a settlement came to be made on the Prince of
Wales, on his attaining his majority. In making such
a change in the principle of management it was not to
be supposed but that complaints would he made by those
whose property was affected by it.—(Hear, hear.) But
what was the reason now alleged that they should grant
an inquiry? It was, they were told, that they might
satisfy those who had hypothetical charges to make!—
(Laughter.) What were hypothetical charges? It was
enough to listen to those who had real charges to prefer.
—(Hear, hear.) But now they were to grant an in-
quiry upon an hypothetical charge. Some portion of
the property bad been sold to a railway company. Then,
he ventured to say, that the whole of that money had
been applied to the purposes of the trust.—(Hear, hear.)
What, then, was the nature of the hypothetical charge?
A railway passed through a portion of the Crown pro-
perty—that portion was parted with, and money was re-
ceived for the property. Well, then, that was not an
hypothetical cearge—it was a fact. But the Hon. Gen-
tleman who proposed this motion introduced a new prin-
ciple into their debates. His Noble Friend the Earl of
Lincoln had, in an able, lucid, and powerful speech, last
year given a most satisfactory answer to all the charges of
the Hon. Gentleman, and he (Sir H. Peel) really hoped
had then settled the question for ever. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had an opportunity of making a reply to that
speech, and he was not able to answer it. But what
did he do? He found in a newspaper, the Morning
Chrenicle, a statement which he thought expressed the
opinions of the Earl of Lincoln, and not answering the
speech of his Noble Friend, but having heard that the
Earl of Lincoln looked with favour on the Morning
Chrtneicle, he assumed that that paper spoke the senti-
ments of the Earl of Lincoln ; and, unfortunately, the
Earl of Lincoln not being here, and last year having
made a speech which the Hon. Gentleman was not able
to answer, the Hon. Gentleman now said that he would
not answer that speech, but he would reply to the news-
paper.—(Laughter.) If the Hon. Gentleman had said
that he would oven now answer the speech of his Noble
Friend, although it would not be very Parliamentary,
still it would not be very irrational ; but being unable
to answer the speech, he levelled all his wrath upon the
newspaper, and that on the assumption that it spoke
the sentiments of the Earl of Lincoln.—(Laughter.)
This certainly savoured of the hypothetical charge
which the Honourable Gentleman put in another form.
(Laughter.) Now he believed that all the result of the
inquiry sought for would be this,—that it would be
suggestive to many of the better management of their
property. So far from abuses being permitted, there
was to he found every just claim on the part of tenants
attended to. There was no property in the management
of which there were greater ref.rins—in which there
was a stronger desire to put down abuses, and in which
the patronage of office had been abolished, and this for
the purpose of substituting men for those of high office,
and title, and large salaries.—(Hear.) Under these cir-
cumstances, he said, instead of discussing the abstract
question whether or not the House of Commons had a
right to institute an inquiry, he protested against any
inquiry, because an inquiry could not be entered into
without shaking the authority of those who had con-
ducted the management of these Crown properties with
such signal success. It would be, in his opinion, a bad
return to make to such men as Mr. Pemberton Leigh to
grant such an inquiry. Everything had been done to
promote the most strict economy in the management of
the estates of the Prince of Wales. He did hope, then,
that the House of Commons would not do anything to
disturb the arrangements that had been made by ap-
pointing a Committee of Inquiry.—(Hear.)
Mr. GIBSON—The Hon. and Learned Member for
Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) had told the House that the
funds of the Duchy of Lancaster were applied to main-
tain a defective system—that the courts ofjustice which
were supported out of those funds were so detective that
if they did not mend their ways, he would be under the
necessity of leaving them, and he himself, as vice-chan •
cetlor of the duchy, rather intimated that he should be
obliged to come to Parliament and a.k its assistance in
order to accomplish their reform. Now he (Mr. Gibson)
thought that this branch of the question was a very im-
portant one, fir he understood that these separate judi-
catures, clashing as they did with the laws of the realm,
were the cause of great public inconvenience, and that
when Acts were passed dealing with particular counties,
clauses were always inserted for reserving the rights and
privileges of the ducky courts. The system of special
jurisdiction was most vexatious, and in the main not
favourable to the public weal. He was of opinion, there-
fore, that the powers which the courts
i
i lexouersceisead over
t
her Majesty's subjects did give
claim t i inquire weether it was fitting that any portion
of the funds should be applied to the support of these
special jurisdictions.
Mr. HUME said that Parliament had an undoubted
power to insitute the inquiry proposed by the Hon,
Member for Tavietock. He remembered the time when
nearly the whole of the revenues of the two duchies
were absorbed in the payment of salaries. He admitted,
however, that of late years considerable improvement
had taken place ; still, the fact that the charges were
12,0001. a year, whilst the entire receipts did not exceed
30,0001., suggested that there was ground for inquiry,
it only with a view to ascertain whether there might not
be a consolidation of some of the items; for in many
cases the expense of collectiug absorbed the whole of the
receipts, and in such cases was attended with ineenee-
nience to the parties who paid, and was of no benefit to
the parties who received. Were he one of the Commis-
sioners, he should at once say, " By all moans let there
an inquiry." There might be a delicacy in showing the
accounts, but there ought to be none. The accounts
were public, and the House bad a right to know how the
accumulation fund was invested and applied. If an in-
quiry were granted, it would show, at any rate, that
there was nothing to conceal.
Lord DUNCAN said if one thing had struck him
more forcibly than another, in the course of the inquiry
into the Wood's and Forests by the Committee over which
he preaided, it was this, that of all bodies in the world
the House of Commons was the worst possible steward
in the management of property.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the management of the
property would have
been more diligently looked into if it had been placed in
fewer bards, and that there would then have been much
less to complain of. With regard to the subject of en-
croachments, it was his opinion that, however oppressive
the Crown might have been in olden times, at all. events
in modern times it had been " more sinned agamstthan
sinning" by the adjoining proprietors. Being of opinion
that the gentlemen who presided over the duchies had
acted as good stewards for the Crown, that they bad
only acted as if they were stewards for any private pro-
prietor, and that they would have been culpable had they
done otherwise, he' should vote against the motion.
Mr. STANFORD (who was but partially audible) said
that the object of the first portion of the resolution was
simply to ascertain the extent to which the public were
entitled to claim an interest, present or prospective, in
the management of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lan-
caster, and this object he thought was answered by the
discussion which the motion had elicited. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Treluwny) had thus (to use a legal
word)" estopped" his own motion; for he could not ask
for a Cumuli' eo to institute the special inquiries he
wished to raise, tinless he could get the assent of the
House to his first inquiry,—namely, wht then the public
had any interest or net ? The speeches of tee Solicitor
General and Sir R. Peel— both high authorities upon
this question—conclusively showed that the interest in
the duchies was so peculiarly private in its character
that it would be wholly impossible for this House to grant
a Committee to inquire into the other specific matters
which the Hon. Member proposed to raise upon this. If
there had been any good ground for an inquiry, he (Mr.
Stanford) should not have obj, cted to support the motion.
When. statements went to, to the public respecting
mismanagement and extravagance it was extremely
desirable that inquiry should be made; but the Learned
Solicitor-General and the R'glat Hon. Baronet (Sir
R. Peel) had shown that the revenues of the duchies
were admirably managed, and he must, therefore, give
Ills vote agalnsi the metier"