The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-04 00:00:00

biting burial in towns, say within 15 miles of St. Paul's
in London, and some relative distance in other towns.
(Hear.) He gave credit to the Government fir the prin-
ciple ot the measure, but he must object t • must ef the
details; and he would take the present opportunity of
stating that there was one man who had been treated
most infamously in connexion with this matter—a man
who had devoted 15 years of his life and much of his
Property to the promotion of the object aimed at in the
Bill--he meant Mr. Walker.—(Hear, hear.) Another
individual, Mr. Chad eick, got the while credit, while
Mr. Welke-, the original pioneer on this question, was
coolly thrown overheard.—(flear, hear.) 11, would say,
however, that if they were to have a commission at ell,
he did not see a min better fitted to serve upon it than
Mr. Walker; but he (Mr. Osborne) was fortified in the
view he took of the Bill by the fact that that gentleman
regarded it as in many respects a very objectionable
measure.—(Hear.) His opinion was, that they were
doing more to prejudice the cause of sanitary reform in
the eyes of the people than if they had brought in no Bill
at all on the subject.—(Haar.)
Sir DE L. EVANS coinplaieed that the Bill was going
into C .mmittee when no oppiet rnity had been given
them to discuss its principle. I. was only on Friday
that several important amendments had been made
known to the !louse, and as yet no time had been given
to their constituents to express any opinions regarding
them.
Sir B. HALL said, the metropolitan Members had
been told by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey)
that if they voted for the Bill going before a Select Coin•
mittee they would perhaps throw over the Bill tor the
session, and thus postpone for another year the great
principle they were all so desirous to carry out; but
would that be the fault of the metropolitan 'Members?
The Bill was mentioned in the Speech from the Tnrone,
was brought in on the 15th of April, and read a second
time on the 22d of April, and now it was proposed to go
into Committee on the 3d of June. Were any of the.
Members of that House to blame for the delay which
had thus taken place ?—(tlear, hear.) He would tell
the Noble Lord why the Bill was not referred to a Select
Committee. It was because it would have been neees-
.sary to place en the Committee a great number of
the metropolitan Members, and there were not two
out cf the sixteen who sat for the metropolis who would
have agreed to a measure of this kind.—(Hear, hear.)
It was a measure that went, in fact, to abolish the whole '
of the local self-government that now distinguished the
metropolitan pariehes, so far as burial-places were con-
cerned.—(Bear, hear.) There were two persons in the
metropolis of whom the inhabitants entertained great
suspicions, and these were the Bishop of London, as
regarded ecclesiastical matters, aid Mr. Chadwick, as
regarded sanitary measures.—(Hear, heir.) Through
the one they were in danger of having fixed upon them
.ees in perpetuity to pay the clergy, and the other was
establishing a board, of which he was the prime mover,
and of which perhaps he would hereafter be the head.
—(Hear, hear.) He would not now go into the details
of the Bill. It was his intention to support the, pro-
posal for sending it before a Select Committee, and when
the time came for considering tbe details he hoped that
both as regarded the payment of fees in perpetuity,
and the board, they would'be rejected by a majority of
that House.—(Hear.)
Mr. MASI'ERMAN regretted that he felt himself
compelled to oppose the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), but, as his belief was that the Bill would oe bet-
ter considered by a Select Committee than by a Commit-
tee of the whole House, he had made up his mind to
vote for the metier) ot the Hon. Member for Botirein.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE (who was received with chi ers
from all parts of the House, this being the first appear
ante of the lion. Gentleman since his indisposition) said
he was sorry he had not much voice to oppose the Bill,
but he felt bound to say that with the exception of one
single clause, tnat relating to the intramural burial of
the dead, involving a principle which they were all
unxieus to see carried out, there was nothing in the Bill
to which he could give his sanction. There was not
beyond that clause, if indeed such a clause really ex-
isted, one proposition in the Bill that deserved the sup
port of the House.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir G. Grey) teld them that they would merely
lose time by sending the Bill to a Select Committee ;
but he thought, on th c utrary, that it would be a
means of saving time. If it were sent to a Committee
impartially cho,en, and one that would listen fairly and
attentively to all the arguments that would b%. urged
upon their consideration, he fur one would abide by the
decision of the Committee, and give no further trouble
to the House on the subject of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Some gentle.nen attached great importance to the sub
jet t of Sunday Post-office etbeer, and that House was
led into a hasty vote tu agreeing to address the Crown
on the subject. Now, the petitions which had been
presented on that question were the result of as great
an amount of imposition as ever had been practised,
and he was satisfied that the public generally' were
opposed to the course which the House had
taken.—(Hear, bear.) But how different was the Case
with ref,rence to the petitions that had been presented
on the subject of the present Bill by those representing
the tnetropoli-? Where was the metropolitan Member
who had stood up in his place in favour of the Bill ?
Not one, he believed, would titan(' up and advocate any
measure so wild and contrary to the opinions of the
pe Isle of the metropolis. The Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) would probably be for the Bill, the whole Bill.
and nothing but the Bill; but the Common Council of
the city of London had resolved to petition that House,
praying that the City might be exempted from the ope-
ration of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.) One of the results of
this measure would be, that it would become a model
Bill for the whole country, and when it passel country
gentlemen would be urged to submit to it because the
metropolis had done so.—(Hear, hear.) Let them,
therefore, take warning in time. lie would not now go
into the details of the Bill, but hoped that the House
would consent to its being remitted to a Select Com-
mittee. When the public heard that Government re-
fused to refer it to a Committee, they would at once
conclude that there was some good jobbing and sonic,
nice patronage to be obtained by the Bile—(blear, bear.)
Mr. D'EYNCOURT regretted that Government
should oppose the Bill going before a Select Committee.
He highly apptoved the object of ihe Bill, but disap-
proved the mode in which it was proposed to carry it
out. He thought parishes should take the duty laid
down in the Bill upon themselves; it would be more in
accordance with the spirit of our institutions, and opposed
to the centralising course so much pursued by the Govern-
ment. The amendments in the Bill having only been
made known on Friday, he bad not yet had an oppor-
tunity of learning the opinions of his constituents re-
garding them.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL rejoiced to sea his Hon. Friend
the !!ember for Finsbury (Mr. Duncowbe) again in his
place—(Hear, hear)—though he certainly found himself
under the necessity of not concurring with his Hoe.
Friend in the conclusions to which he had c on the
present occasion. The question before them really was,
whether it was desirable to refer the Bill tor preventing
intramural interments to a Select Committee. His
Hon. Friend said that if they did so they would have
Mfore them a number of witnesses, all of whom
would have plans to propose, and suggestions to make,
and objections to urge, and data after all those plans,
and suggestions, and objections had lot en made they
would have to be fully considered by the Commiitee. if
so, then they might consider themselves fortunate if
some time at the end of July that Committee shout i
miike a report. The more likely r.sulr, however, would
e that the Committee would report that they ha f found
it impossible to come to a decision, but that they hoped
they would be allowed to sit again next session.—(Hear,
heir.) Then, with respect to the Bill, he would not
enter into its defence, for he hal not heard one reason
urged why the House was not able to give its considers-
tiou to the clauses of the Bill as well as a Select Com-
mittee.—(Hear.) If the House found that the Board ot
Health had by some clauses more powers theta were ab-
?olutely necessary to carry into effect what all considered
necessary, let those clauses be alterel or removed from
the Bill. If, on the contrary, it was found that those
clauses were necessary, they could be pissed either with-
out any alteration, or with such alteration as might be
required.—(Hear, hear.) His Right Hoe. Friend (Sir
G. Grey) had proposed some new clauses ; but he
thought it hard that, because they had listened to de-
putations and adopted recommendations which they had
made, the House should, on that account, be asked not
to go into Committee On the Bill.—(Hear.)
Mr Alderman SIDNEY sled, the Corporation of
London was unanimous in condemning the centralizing
clauses of the Bill. They felt a considerable amount of
gratitude to Government for undertaking the measure,
but if they were asked whether they would undergo the
present evils of intramural interments, or the evils that
would spring frone the Bill, their answer was, that they
would prefer taking the chance of •undergoing the risk.'
personal to themselves of throwing out the Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) There were clauses in it which, as a municipality,
they never could bo expected to agree to. As a corpo-
ration, they had always laid claim to the merit of mana-
ging their own affairs well, and they knew as well what
belonged to their social condition as any committee or
board whatever, whether sitting tat Gwydyr-house or
Somerset-house.—(Hear, hear.) A Bill had already
been prepared which prohibited the burial of the dead
less than five miles from the metropolis, and it proposed
to do this without any charges being made upon the
public except those that were made for the decent Inter-
ment of the deal. Then why should not a measure of
that kind be passed, instead of oiae embracing the cen-
tralizing powers conferred by the Bill now before the
House? Ho could assure the House that the most deter-
, mined opposition would be given to the measure by the
city of London.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL thought the argument of the Hon.
Gentleman who bad just sp ,ken was one which rather
showed the impolicy than a therwiati of sending the Bill
to a Select Committee. The question of centraliz ition
was no doubt a very important one. There were cer-
tain duties exercised by parochial authorities in the city
of London which it was proposed by the Bill should be
taken into the hands of Government; but surely that
was a question so important that it ought to be decided
by the whole !louse.—(Hear, bear.) He had every re-
spect for the Corporation of the city of London; but at
the same time there were points of local management on
which some persons ventured to take a different opinion
from them.—(A laugh ) Take, for exanuele, the ques-
tion of the removal of Smithfield markee—(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) Speaking generally, the Corporstien of
the city of London must be presumed best qealitiel to
judge of local affairs; yet that was a point on which
many persons ventured to takeh differesit opinion f. oin
them.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill before the House had
been reed a second time, and the question now was,
whether they should go into Committee or send it befits
a Select Committee up stairs. It the Bill was sent t a
Select Committee every body must admit that it would be
ono of the most extraordinary cases et t xtramord inter- -
went ever heard of—(Great ladughptze)uhe
thought it would be better is
to laughter)—dud
tlieretere
rather within
than without the walls of that House.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME took great. blame to himself fir not
having sooner read the Bill, as he would have most eee-
tainly opposed the second reading. lie regarded it so a

te
most extraordinary measure, and as tending gresatit,
premete the ,centralzing deeigns the-Gs?". (7-ee•
and, therefore, he would give it his mostedecideJ
sition. of the
Lord R. GROSVENOR defended the principle reseal
Bill, in favour of which it had been his lot ce,,_,Pin the
petitions, notwithstanding what had fallea' %eeib-2r
llenourable Member for Finsbury. The Heti' repstecl
asked if there was any metropolitan Member P_ that,
to detend tae whole of the Bill. He would not s3i,e its
hut he was prepared to say that he would OPlcie°,ols
being sent to a Select Committee. He had pre.ostil .bat
mewing called to consider the Bill, and tb
Set,
mobile
much was said against giving
meeting lied ternainatisl rather ahruetlYt to the
Ores.
clergy and to the sextons, there was no strong.„bt
tbie
sion against the principle of the Bill. lie the:fociotel
measure affected most particularly the workitie roots
of the metropolis, and that it would greatli,Po aeich
their benefit, though there were clauses in it `.)
he was not prepared to give his support—('l'4ft; tended
Mr. WAKLEY said he and his colleague hsu largo
e sere e
at great inconvenience, at the r. qte sr. of lh Ti
number of their con.tituents. to oppose the 13141 e, bat
believed the principle of the Bill to be unassa"; ogle
Wer d (Lord
in common with the whole metropolis they
60nipensation
to the detail.; of the measure. The Noble Lorial,,blit
R. Grosvenor) had spoken in favour of the pr_irsciojited
he shrank from entering upon the details, and or OP;
that they could not be supported by principle Lord 8.
ment.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the Noble ib that
the head of the Government had not acted wths re'
courtesy which he ought to have done towards old be
pr,,s,ntarives 01 the millions of people who meiroPr
eff eted by this measure. The whole of the ,sere
titan representatives, with one eXCePti!",,,stsVetli'
against the measure. Under these circa,'" aore
alobl,o, be re.
it was not too much to ask the
(Lord J. Russell) to consent that the Bill should oho'
terred to a Select Committee All the parooblld 00t
be
rides asked was that such a Bill as this sb°ll'Sty, $5,
forced upon them. Private speculation, ilige°,ll;
enterprise would set such works
theni.operation
azittioritiel
he confidently beSeved, entitle parochial a
to
the ratitude ot the . teaestse
Sir \V. CLAY said, thatpublic a•though he objeo h
veral of the provisions of the Bill, yet he baciilto t'74;
any sufficient reason why it should be referred boci
lect Committee. On the contrary, that
a etc
been urged convinced him that the proper -lac
the Bill could be discussed was the II)05, itself.ool
Mr. WYLD said, the question at issue na cut
the parochial authorities were capable of coastsisot
,this rneesure, or whether a board of vairater B's!
should supersede them—[Here the Hoe. .31v111,
interrupt. d by loud and incessant cries of pre
which made it impossible for him to roceed?'"
fore moved thee, the debate be adjouPrned. „ "bite;
Mr. BRIGHT protested against the nl°"'„-atticsc)
matters of this kind were managed at that '
„, coo
hour of the evening. (A quarter past se,e vy,
It was in the recollection of the House that °ln-,. oliliteef
.Members were speaking about the same b°--al 1",;l
question of Post office transmission on the Sandrept' t
were actually, hooted down by Gentlemen who
going to their dinner to discussing a question owe
importance.—(Cries of "Divide, divide.") 'l,lfe°s weirs
that at the lower benches of the House "`",,-fiet who
several several members of her Majesty's G-overnai-g00v.3
whether ootil
appeared ready to vote for the Bill,
bad, rather than hear its merits discussed. IliectC':
certainly vote for the Bill being referred to Sr;
wittee; but he must protest against the irate rdof
the
that lion. Members were offering at this PerlafelBbettl
evening to the observations which other 11°13'ase,''a5-n
0,
13
felt it their duty to make.—(Cries of " Q-1,57 the
" Divide.") The Noble L ,rd at tee ,1a °' ember
'eminent ought to rebuke those insubordinate
erg)
for their unseemly conduct.—(Cheers and Wight d
Mr. OSBORNE would ask his Hon. Friel3eoa
Weld) to a ithdraw his motion for au adjournsB a the
lieving. a; he did, that if they were now to divide
main qeesteon they would get a majority. (ff'
Mr. FITZROY thought the lion. Gvrit-'Msa bet'
Wylo) had to thank himself for the interruPl3o goo/
experienced. by not having confined himself to t
'
taut) bets, e t. e House. Ise °f Lye
Sir DE LACY EVANS considered the rebti a„ 0,
Hon. Gentleman to have been perfecly undeservv:o4
hoped for the sake of the respectebility ned,edtecersi°ll
their proceedings, that his Hon. Friend would v-
his motion for an adjournment of the debate. ;ad
ot
Lord D. sTuAn also advised his Hon. Frs
to withdraw his motion. It the House eves 13°,4-soo'
a temper to discus.; a question of such eft;
would be better to postpone it to arlot"er oe.
tunity, when Hon. Gentlemen would be P.rev be
listen with patience to the arguments that might
dressed to them.
for
,
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think the roe°, r pre
scribed by the Hon. Member for Manchester ie°o4ls
venting the noise arising from conversation in thloooerif
would be effectual. There might be one or tw°),,,uoto ,
belonging to the Government sitting at the Thies 0,
the House who might have joined in the Orel°
the general impatience, but he (Lord J. linssepttre
lieved that if those Hon. Members had here, li°l/'•
silent and completely dumb the impatience of /'-greOrd
would have been manifested to almost quite
5t
q fb tb
.degiee.—(Laughter.) He had not per ceive , tiepce
ha I been on this Bill any extraordinary “Projele",
eviuced, or what was more than usual when a paisPho
was expected at that particular hour of the B:bet kpri
(Gear, hear.) It was not fur him to say
reason could be.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) „k
a division was expected, whatever might :'e;
question, between half-past seven and eigh" bof tt
there certainly was a sort of imp itience show-
„ t
iodt
Members which was not usual at any other
the evening. After this explanation, he hoped t eche
Gentleman (Mr. Wyld) would go on with his tog 1.0;
When the question under discussion was coneer-old rfi"
interment of the d; ad of the metropolis, it vi° itl.l°ll
be creditable, at that hour of the evening, t°
.
the debate, eat
ty of
Sir B. HALL declared that, during the tweed pe
he had been a Member of that House, he btl ,by tbr
witnessed more impatience than had been sboviail
House that night. It would be much better vvbf,o ttiri
Lions of this importance were to be discussed, t"
should always be brought forward after dinner.
tia
After a few words from Mr. LACY, the .-
adjourning the debate was withdrawn, and gold
Mr. WYLD proceeded shortly to address thedieasio
He said that the principle of the Bill Was not bich
on the second reading. In a communication 'got the,
had with tee cretary of the Home DePargrii,„ eel cit
Right Hon. Gentleman begged him to pestrpro.- itfee'id)
position be might have to the Bill till the Cornr.lo,o
was upon that distinct understanding that hr C:eli et fr,st
absteiued from offering his oppoietton to the Pt it roe
stage. He now objected to the because ee
measure 051
to establish a Government board of commission d 130
it was a fact that all Government commissions" 05
and entirely failed. But in this instance thereo rein'
te
hitifi
necessity for commissioners—as the perochial
was already in existence. Ile should vote for
the Bill to a Select Committee.
retie'
The House then divided, when there apPea-57
For Mr. Lacy's amendment '"
Against it is
Majority • • Betas`
The House then went into Committee, Ml'
s term
Clause Ceair•
eee, tail arta
Clause which enacted that London,
old
Southwark, and the places in the EChedlllo 9°'--
the metropelit m district, was agreed to. Gene
On clause 2 being read, which enacts that r'
, for
Board of Health to . xecute the Act be app°int
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he must prououncef ,
eie
mation of this beard to be a job, the expense °5l e-1 e
would be thrown upon the people by addition 00•810;
tions on account of poor-rates. He complainer' eriateillie
not having been talented him for pre! ariug "
the amendments, of which he had given n°ta-atell agrees
Bull was only reprinted on Friday last; it wae"
disadvantage, therefore, that he now proceetw-e etror of
discussion of the subject. The whole of the Tie city
pd
tan parishes, the whole county of Middlesex' .01
London, and the whole of the counties o,s_f oropeat
Surrey, objected to an interference by u°001.009
hoard, and to have their powers of local g tropolto
Wren from theta. He must say that the me of a
'
districts had no confidence in the administrstototen reta e
board that might be constituted by the 0eolto•
They wanted to job away the privilege of tbetir,ey lirde
to burying their dead where and with svheta, ftervr"e
If this amendment were carried he wool" ao ,
sl 'ter,
move a clause to prevent the powers of Psrbueog is
tries for arranging to bury their own dead iee
fereel with. to -fa
008 bow
Mr, HUME said, no one was more Oa be 9 et
cid noel
funerals properly conducted than he was, ey r cei
be prepared to °Svc to the Board of Health ovissOto
to coerce parishes that refused to remove the abet 00.11
that were complained of; but he was satis"'eceige
parish with which he was connected would r. 5 Bill,
tio
indignation the propositions embodied iu thl d dos
wished to know what would be the expense fin V
plot f
of the Commission? 00 0 o
Sir G. GREY said, the Commission vvi°,ll by.h.coa
during the continuance of the Board of fleableogeio left
Parliament, and in 1854 the subject might .8 tag
sidered. With respect to the arraegeo3o3' d ,pcb
to the parishes themselves, if they refus..eed•Pary;
those arrangements an application to the (ta pece,505,0
fur a mandamus to compel them might . and rbe
two or three years might be lost in litigatio .61 ,0
burl . r
could be done in the meantime as to the Ageas• do,
dead in those parishes ?—(llear, hear.) A at. 99_,/
each parish to have a separate burial groullemore!;feir
tance from the metropolis. [An HOB' 00, butt ,
" Nor] The Honourable Gentleman said loge!! SI
rishes were to be left to make voluntary Brit. ,e) t.bo
what security could there be they would anaB_!_orit Eta'
es to Pr' y in P
was necessary, then, to take some steps
of
,e 5
which disgraced this country—ihe only.cosu_f the °jut
rope so disgraced—of mingling the remain ()hear) :sr°,
with the habiations of the living.-1-18al to the Pi sli6
suppose the objections he had mentionedo,itn o_„00
chatl system did not exist, would the prone aasee leutae
Hon. Gentleman meet the exiaencies of the tbat the
who were conversant with the subject nr t butohia' I"t3
worst burial grounds were not the
pu
privet-. grounds, and if those were stitOtyor:era,
parochial grounds be a sufficient substitu_ll.,: v 0 as
hear.) As to the original clauses of the iiivere Otorep.
t.O had been male, and the Comsnitteevo goy. bee
competent Co deal with the obj Own of t of
tlemun at they would have been if it Sea, ,0.
• • • I &all aSS
amended by the insertion of -additiona
After a few words from Mr.'.'. DuNcoetne, t
it WI it
GREY in explanation, 0103 that.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, that if he were tt
.0000. t
100
ee tral body WIN desirable, still,it did
12°stiould elle/
should be app,int.d by the Crown and
but
e'
no represei tetive principlee-a corporate
tes, aut not
the public expenditure and rai-iog of ra rrot
Pr
sponsible t . the reteesyers.—(Hear, hear.) 138
ctple could ntbe th fended. •eear Sage.ge 000 a
Mr. MACIiaNNON *'boot s' le
•
brought in s Bill baying,: down„ 1/Tit,.
.ao;.111-;01,11,