The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-09 00:00:00

APR IL 9, WO.

solve the Nob;e Lord et the head of the Fot-e.eit De-
partment from the charge of being the first Fereien
edini-eer Aeho had vibstituteci for an order ef the Privy
ceuneil the marteete of the. Seerctzt y of Stele tot the
Foreign Department. He was sorry to s'y thee. tote
Earl el Aber (leen adopted the same csurso in resecct to
the river Parana. The law on thie stilject rial not de-
peed on hastily adopted opinions by writers on inter-
national law, or on obsolete statutes on the subject.
Such men as the late Lord Stowell and Chief Justice
Tyndal held the view which he had taken the liberty to
lay before the House. elle wished to ee e as Mr. Justice
Blackstone had it, that their sol Hers and their sailors
were not guilty of acts which would render them liable
to be treated as banditti. Uunfortunately it was not
the Government of the country who directed these
reprisals, but the individual who carried the order
out, that became the sufferer on account of them.
He had no hesitation in saying that in the event of Sir
William Parker returning to this country, and if any
Greek merchant suffered in consequence of these re-
prisals—the order for them not emanating from the
Privy Council—an action might be brought against
the gallant admiral, and heavy damages recovered. This
being the constitutional rule, and this the departure
from it, he should be glad that the Noble Lord would
explain what was the excuse for the course pursued by
the Foreign-office. Old diplomacy was dying out. It
was, therefore, the more necessary to mark these viola-
tions of the laws of nations. What one Secretary of State
did, another was not slow to follow. These violations of
constitutional precedent should not be suffered to pass
without observation. He would not fatigue the House
by going through the precedents, although he had them
with him. There was something more than the want
of a mere matter of form iu the prosecution of these
claims. Considering the long apparent quiescence of
our Government in respect to these claims, the Greek
Government had a right to something more than the
notice given them. Oae of the claims was 20 years old,
and in some others no application had been made since
1846-7. Nothing had been done since then, and what
right had wo to suppose that our peremptory tone in
1850 would produce a greater effect than in those years?
The course adopted wan costly, dangerous, and trouble-
some. He did not think that, however just the claims
were, this course was justifiable. He did not blame the
Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) more than his predeces-
sors, but be wished to return to the old legal and consti-
tutional principle.
Viscount PALMERSTON observed that he had no
objection to offer to the manner in which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman bad submitted his views of a legal
question to that House. The question had been entirely
separated from any that might appear to have a political
character. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
stated his opinions upon legal and constitutional grounds,
and to such a course of proceeding he of course could
not object. All he could say, without pretending to
follow the Hon. and Learned Gentleman through the
historical details into which he had entered, was, that
he (Lord Palmerston) was advised, and he was bound to
act in accordance with the advice of those whose legal
opinions he considered to be good, and those opinions he
had no doubt were well grounded—hut acting, as he
said, upon their opinion, he was advised that no order
in Council was necessary for the purpose of effecting re-
prisals in this instance—that was to seize upon and de-
tain vessels for the purpose of obtaining redress from
foreign powers on whom demands bad been made and
redress had been refused:—(Hear, hear.) Hr conceded
this—that if it weee necessary to go one step further—if
it.weie necessary to confiscate and sell those vessels so
seized, then he agreed with the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman that an order of Council would be necessary to es-
tablish a commission court for the purpose of confiscating
and condemning those vessels.—(Hear.) For himself,
he had acted in accordance with the advice that had been
given to him, and he was convinced in his own mind
that advice was sound. He believed that for the pur-
pose of seizing and detaining vessels, that which was re-
quired sins the order of a responsible officer of the
Government—the Secretary (f State—that his giving an
order to the admiral in command would justify that
officer in carrying such an order into execution. Ile
could assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that sup-
posing the measure he had adopted should, and he
trusted it would, lead to a satisfactory result, and that
without the necessity of a confiscation and sale of these
vessels; but even if so. yet the parties to whom those
vessels belonged would not, as the Hon. end Learned
Gentleman maintainers, have good grounds for proceed-
ing in the courts of law in this country against the offi-
cers employed in the execution of their orders. As he
was advised no officer could suffer any inconvenience—
the officer would be borne harmless who could show that
he had acted as a naval man, in pursuance of orders
given to him. In the case c f the " Queen against
Denman," this principle was found to be laid down,
that an officer was bound to obey the orders he re-
ceived from his superiors. All he had to do was, to show
that the act was doro in pursuance of orders, and
therefore the Crown was bound to sustain him, or that
department of the Government under which the officer
had acted. Notwithstanding the opinions expressed by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he retained the opi-
nion that he was right in the way he had acted, and in
the course he had pursued. He did not presume to say
that others were to be bound by any legal opinion of
his own, but what he stated was the opinion of the law
officers of the Crown, and on whose opinion it was his
duty, as a Minister of the Crown, to act. All legal
opinions to which he had recourse convinced him that
what he had done was strictly in accordance with the
law and constitution of the country.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME wished to know in what state were the
negotiations on this subject, and what prospect was
there of a peaceable termination. It was lamentable to
think that towards a country they had support td—that
they had assisted by their pecuniary means, they should
now have adopted a means by which they checked its
trade and interfered with its prosperity. It was very
desirable that such proceedings should be put an end
t t, and he wished to know what prosp ct there was of it?
Viscount PALMERS'TON replied that there was
nobody in that House who took a deeper interest than
he did in the real prosperity of the Greek nation.—
(Hear, hear.) It had fallen to his lot to take part in
the proceedings that led to the emancipation of Gres c-n
and to the establishment of its Government, and in ren-
dering it an independent state. It was then exceedingly
painful to him that he should be connected with mea-
sures that he had been compelled to adopt and pursue.
It was not the fault of the Greek nation, it was the fault
of the Greek Government that obliged him to have re-
course to these proceedings.—(Hear.) Tho last accounts
he had received from Greece were to the effect that
Baron Gros, who had been employed by the French
Government to give his good offices in this matter, had
arrived at Athens—that he was employed in investigat-
ing the matters in which it would be his duty to act, and
that it was scarcely possible, front the time he had been
at Athens, as yet to have fully investigated them.
Under these circumstances it was impossible for him to
give a distinct answer to the question put to him.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
Colonel ANSUN stated that it now became his duty
to bring under the consideration of the Committee the
ordance estimates for the present year. He felt the
importance of a duty that devolved upon him; and
knowing the great anxiety felt as to those estimates, he
did not consider that he would be justified in entering
into the subject unless sustained by the kind assistance
of the House, the patience of which he prayed for,
whilst he compressed in as few observations as possible
the statement he had to make.—(Hear, hear.) Formerly,
complaints used to be made as to the difficulty of com-
prehending the various and complicated details in which
these estimates and the various items they comprised
were involved. These complaints he thought could not
be made for the future, for these estimates had been con-
sidered in Committee, and the members of that Commit-
tee now possessed as much information on the subject as
he did himself, and if any Hon. Member would take the
trouble, or had the courage to go through the evidence
in the blue books, and then put a distinct question to
him, he could promise to give every such question a
plain and explicit answer ; for if the answer were not
plain and explicit, then, be said, the responsibility and
the fault must rest with himself.—(Hear.) When the
Committee on the Estimates bad been appointed in the
year 1848, the expenditure of the country had increased,
so much, and its finances so much diminished, it became
apparent that one of two things was indispensable—they
must either diminish the expenditure, dr 'they must de-
vise the means by which the revenue of the country
should be increased. The large increase in the army,
navy, and ordnance had attracted the attention of the
House. It had also attracted the attention of the Go-
vernment, the members of which must be as anxious as
any of themselves to diminish the expenditure, for they
were the persons most likely to suffer from a careless
expenditure of money, and the most deeply interested in
preventing improper demands being made on that House.
The Government then acted with a wise discretion when
they consented to the appointment of a Committee.—
(Hear, hear.) Twenty years had elapsed since any in-
quiry had been made on the same subject. Sir Henry
Hardinge had then the chief management of this depart-
ment, and lie believed he could say of him that there
never yet existed a more able public servant than Sir
Henry Hardinge.—(Hear, hear.) Ho had made him-
self fully master of this department, and he had suc-
ceeded in carrying out many improvements which were
a great advantage to the department and the pub-
lic at large.—(Bear, hear.) The Government then,
ho said, had exercised a wise discretion in al'owing a
Committee to be appointed, even though last year the
Height Hon. Gentleman the Member fio. Stamford (Mr.
Herries) had cast in the teeth of the Government their
consenting to that Committee as the reason why they
were obstructed in passing these estimates. The Go-
vernment did not deserve the taunt then cast upon them
—the Government had not been disappointed in the ex-
pectations it had formed with respect to that Committee.
The result of the labours of that Committee was now
before the Ilouse in the shape of an able report. framed
by his Noble Friend, and in it would be found altera-
tions suggeserl to the Government. These alterations
had been considered by the Government, and the House
would now say whether or not it would be desirable to
carry them out to their full extent.—(Hear.) It would
be his duty to al.ude to those recommendations of the
Committee, and he believed that the most desirable way
of considering and discussing them would be to bring
forward each of them separately. Before he did so he
would, however, first of all state that the whole amount
of the estimates of the ordnance department for the pre
sent year was 2,434,4171 ; in 1849, it was 2,632,601/.,
being a diminution on the present year of 198,1941. In
1848, the estimate was 2,992,143/., and that compared with
the present year of 2,434,417/., was a decrease of 557,1264
In 1845 the NS hole of the estimates was 2,287,7161, being
an increase on the year 1844 of 287,758/. The iuilov.frg
was the increase on the several years he had to mentors
—for 1846,"there was an increase of 430,416/ ; in 1847,
144,5451.; in 1848, 127,694/. The inerea::o in the' lour
years was 990,187/. Now, for this large increase the
Government alone was not to blame—if blame were de-
served it should be shared with that House, and with

• th t.,i! not in the House. From 1835 to 1848, there had
bear! corn iaerable charges brought against the Govern.
• in ~et, test it hal not attended sufficiently to the security
e uetry. The charge was not only made by those
connected with the army or the navy, and who might be
supposed to be biassed by their professional views, but
it, .tis made by independent Members of the House. If
any bsme were to be borne, it must be shared by a por
tion of the House itself. He was certain that neither
the late Government, with whom this increased expendi-
ture originated, nor the present Government who had
continued it, would shrink from the responsibility im-
posed upon them in recommending to that House to aug-
ment the force of the navy and army, with providing
then with proper and necessary equipments, and in
adopting such measures as were particularly demanded
for the ecurity of their seaports and dockyards—(Hear,
hear.) It was to carry out such purposes as these that
there had been the large increase of 990,0002 in the
course cf four years. He was happy now to say that many
(.f the objects for which the increased expenditure had
been proposed had been carried into effect—(Hear.) One
of their main objects had been to place the ordnance
military corps in an efficient state ; that corps consisted
of artillery, engineers, sappers, and miners. He be-
lieved that the House would not refuse any well-con-
sidered demand that might be made for putting in
defence the assailable and unprotected parts of their
coasts. Ile knew that objections were made to the in-
crease of this army. The Hon. Member for Montrose
' had year after year objected to that increase, and this
year he had sought that reduction, bat the unequivocal
expression of the opinion of the House justified the Go-
vernment in the proposal they had made. The objection
that had been made to the army he did not anticipate
would he made to the artillery force. It was admitted
on all hands to be most valuable fur all purposes in
peace and in war. It was one, then, necessary to main-
tain in a state of efficiency. In 1845 they had the dis-
tinct declaration of Sir Hew Ross to its being inade-
quate. During the last two years they had proof, by
the war in India, cf the value of the artillery. He was
not one of those who thought that all future contests
would be decided by the artillery; but this he said, that
that it was a moat powerful adjunct, and without such
assistance any commander would feel himself 'to be
powerless. It would be a sufficient answer to those who
made any objection to show that this was a force
that it was most desirable to maintain, and the
efficiency of which had been experienced in every portion
of the globe where their services were required. He
had now to refer to the recommendations of the Com-
mittee. The first recommendation was with respect
to the division of the services as set forth in the first
page of the abstract. The details there would show
whether the forces were employed at home or abroad.
The first vote that he had to propose on the ordnance
estimates was, as to the ordnance military corps, and
there it would be found the recommendation of the Com-
mittee was acted upon, by stating in the vote for the first
time the number of men required for the service of the
year. The numbers this year were 14,519 officers, non-
commissioned officers, and men, and the amount of the
vote 712,755. The number of' men last year was
14,123, being an apparent increase of 446 men. In
this were included 415 sappers and miners,
that were employed and paid for by a distinct
vote, but were now, for the first time, included in
this vote; and to there were to be added 22 lieutenants.
There was an addition in the charge for the
movement of troops, a diminution under the
head of recruiting, and an addition under the head of
allowances. There were various other minor details
into which he did not find it necessary to enter.
Then there was a recommendation made by the
Committee with reference to the distinct medical depart-
ment of the Ordnance. The subject was under the con-
sideration of the Secretary of War; and whatever the
decision might be, it would have the cordial co-opera-
tion of his Noble Friend at the head of the Ordnance
Department, so that the advantage of the public and the
comforts and well-being of the troops might be at the
same time secured. As to sappers and miners being
employed in surveying the colonies, if the force were so
employed it would become a question whether this
country or the colonies should bear that expense. The
next vote on the estimates was as to the commissariat
supplies. The estimate for the present year was 273,8134
and for last year 301,6501., the diminution being 27,832/.
That diminution arose chiefly on the article of forage.
The Committee had proposed a change as to the com-
missariat in Ireland. There was, he observed, still a
cerumissariat department in Ireland; and he conceived
there would be no economy in provisionieg the troops
there, and supplying the cavalry with forage. The next
vote was for salaries and contingencies s f the Ordnance
offices at the Tower and Pall-mull, and it would be ob-
served that the sutra which was asked for last year
amounted to 85,881/., whilst this year it was 86,9611.,
showing an increase fur the present year of 1,0801. He re-
gretted that there should be any increase upon this vote,
because it w"s one upon which more remarks had been
a ade, perhaps, than upon any other. Fault ha 1 always
been Lanni with the expense of this establishment, and
he should therefore, have been glad had he been able
to effect a decrease. Ile believed he could satisfy the
House, however, that the increase had not been made
without proper regard to economy. At the same time
he must ask them to compare the vote with that of the
year 1848, when it amounted to 95,5641.; so that the
sum he now asked was a diminution as compared with
that year of 8.603/. The increase, as, compared with 1840-
50, arose chiefly in the Surveyor-General's office. Look-
ing at the state of the department at former periods, he
found that the number of persons employed in it in 1828
was 333; in 1835-36, 221; awl in 1850.51, 218; thus
exhibiting a diminution of 85 in the number of persons
employed on the establishment since 1828, whilst the
expense, which in 1828 amounted 109,0001., was for the
current year only 86,961/. This result, he thought,
should s f itself be sufficient to induce the House of
Commons to do justice to the care and anxiety of the
Ordnance department to reduce as far as possible the ex-
pense of the salaries of those who were (maples ed in their
establishments. Ile should also mention that there was an
addition to the item for postage this year of 5001., making
the total postage 8,000/., and this, too, must be taken into
cot sideration when accounting for the difference between
the present vote and that for last year. In allusion to
the observations of the Committee in their report with
regard to the constitution of the department itself, Cols
Anson said that, although he was not prepared to BO
that no improvements could be made, he did believe that
the business of tne department was conducted as. efll
ciently as that of most other departments—certainly, as
any department with which he had ever been connected.
One of the recommendations of the Committee was, that
the store-account examiner's office and the storekeepeee
office should be abolished, and it had boon carried out to
as full an extent as possible within the store account
examiner's offic.:, and he was confident that the alters.
lions made would prove advantageous to the department,
facilitate the business in every way, and in process of
time lead to reductions in the establishment. The next
recommendation of the Committee had reference to tha
office of surveyor-general and clerk of the works.
That recommendation, too, had beea carried out al
to the amalgamation of those two offices. He was
sanguine as to the advantages that would be derived
from the mariner in which the business would in
future be conducted; and he believed that ever'
those who belonged to the department themselves
would be ready to acknowledge that the alters-
:ions would effect great improvements, and give
greater facilities for performing the duties of their
office. Another important recommendation of the Coo'
mittee related to the manner of keeping the store ac'
counts. Immediately on the termination of the labours
of the Committee, the Government appointed a Court
mittee for the purpose of inquiry into the mode of
keeping these accounts, and that Committee had been
sitting up to the present time. They had not, however,
been able to devote all their attention to it, because of
other very important business which was before Ureic.
and the circumstance that it was only at certain periods
that they could apply themselves to this particular mat'
ter. Though they had not yet presented any report, be
believed they were quite willing to acknowledge that
they had undertaken an extremely difficult task, and
that, notwithstanding the five years' experience of the
system of double entry, it was almost impossible, front
the enormous quantity of articles which were obliged to
be accounted for by the different storekeepers, to have
recourse to that system. He trusted that the report of
the Committee would be ready to be laid upon the table
of the house in a short time. The next recommenda-
tion contained in the report of the Select Committee re'
ferred to the division of the Ordnance-office between the
Tower and Pall-mall. This, he was happy to say, MP'
been attended to, and application bad been made to
Government to situation the alteration of the premises
in Pall-mall, with a view to providing increased amo'
modation and carrying on the whole of the business
there. He thought this arrangement would be advar
tageous in every respect, for he was certain that hitherto
the separation of the offices between the Tower and
Pall mall bad proved most inconvenient in carrying 00
the business of the department. The next vote was one
net might appear to be rather alarming to anybody
who was riot accustomed to consider the estimates--he
alluded to vote No. 4—" Establishments in the United
Kingdom and the colonies, salaries, allowances, and can-
tingencies "—extending from page 17 to page 46. The
amount voted under this head for the year 1849-50 veal
315,373/, and he now asked for 303,8261., being a dinfi'
nutter) fur this year of 11,5474 It was only fair that
the House should be made acquainted with the fact
that the reductions for the.. present year were not the
only reductions, but that reductions had been made
the previous year to a considerable extent, and •
that, as compared with 1848-49, there was a reduc;
tion in 1849.50 of 19,000/. The Committee had
considered this and the following vote, No. 5, "Wages
of artificers, labourers, and others employed at the se
veral establishments in the United Kingdom and tie
colonies." Their attention was first particularly draw°
to the establishments at Woolwich engaged in the my
nufacture of articles required for the Ordnance service.
These establishments were shown at page 21 of the
estimates; and the reason lbr their increase in the last
few years was very fully stated in the report. In ale,
laboratory and carriage departments it had been found
necessary to add very largely within the last two years
to the number of artificers and labourers employed, ill
order to meet the demands of the service; but hardly
any addition had been made to the charge of superitr,
tendence; and from his own knowledge, the result 0
the attention which he had been obliged to pay to thho
particular service, he could say that it was impossilto,
to s; ec.k too highly of the indefatigable exertions 0
those who had the superintendence of the works. The
Committee, in the summary of their report, re"
commended that some of the establishments in the
smsl:sr colonies, in the West Indies and in Canada+
should be dispensed with ; and their suggestions
had b. en closely considered, and various reductions
made in accordance with their wishes. One Ordnance
esttibilinient, at home had been reduced, and three ste'
tions iri Canada. _ ',there had else been some reductioall
effected in the storekeepers' and deputy-storekeeperec;
departments—about seven of the latter had been reduced
is the course of the year. The number of Ordnsug°

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