The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-27 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

Ireland was no less a sum than 69,9861. Besides
a great part of those loans were not yet due,
and therefore no complaint could reasonably be made
about the non-payment of that part of them. The
loans, too, were made on a totally different prin-
ciple from any other. They were forced on
Ireland in spite of the remonstrances of every man
of sense in the country, and they had been spent
with the greatest prodigality in the first instance.
It had been stated that England had been taxed to sup-
port the Irish poor, a statement which had been cheered
in that House ; why the English Exchequer was quite
as much Irish as English since the framing of that Union
which, it must be remembered, was an union not sought
for by Ireland, but obtained by England at the expense
of much bribery and corruption. Having united the two
Exchequers, the English Legislature had no right to turn
round and talk of an Irish loan from an English Exchequer.
He thought there was no foundation for the aspersion of
an Irish loan being thrown in the teeth of Irish Mem-
bers. There was only one other thing which he wished
to mention, and that was that some persons had
declared that some districts were in too far distressed a
condition ever to repay the advances which were
to be made, and he appealed to the House whether
it would be deterred by a consideration like
this, when they had just voted 1,000,000/.
for the support of a scheme the good effects of which
had never yet been manifest, from sanctioning this paltry
loan to a country which it had always from the first
treated with injustice.
Mr. F. FRENCH supported the motion for going into
Committee, and said that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Lincoln did not, he thought, understand the precise
nature of tisk Bill. The object of making the proposed
advances was to repay the wasteful and extravagant ex-
penditure which had been caused by officers appointed
by the Government themselves in the management of
the affairs of the Irish Unions; and he maintained, upon
the best authority, that if the contractors had chosen to
proceed against the Government they would have ob-
tained verdicts to the amount of 270,0001. The Hon.
Gentleman then read a list of unions, where a large in-
crease of debts had been occasioned under the adminis-
tration of the vice-guardians; amongst them were the
unions of Liitewel and Galway, in the former of which
the debts had been augmented from 5,4001. to 12,000/.,
and in the latter from 7,0001. to 12,0001.
Mr. R. FOX defended the poor-law guardians and
unions from the imputation of unwillingness to repay.
With respect to the Bill before the House it had his cor-
dial assent, and instead of seeking to defeat it by adverse
amendments it would be far better to forego all angry
reminienences of the past, and address themselves, like
men of basinecs, to the circumstances of the present and
the future, There was one point to which attention
could not be too carefully directed, viz., the manner in
which the funds should be administered. He should not
now enter into any details, as he should have other op-
portunities of referring to the management of the Board
of Works and the operation of the poor-law.
Mr. I'. SCROPE said that the Hon. Member for Ros •
common (Mr. French) had thought fit to enter into a
defence of the poor-law guardians; but there had been
no inst trice of guardians being superseded by vice-guar-
dians, except where there had been great mismanage-
ment, neglect, and cruelty towards the poor. With
respect to the distressed unions, the principle on which
their poor should have received the extraneous relief
that had become necessary was, the supply of reproduc-
tive employment to the able-bodied poor, so as to make
those unions self-supporting within as short a time as
possible. But instead of that a system of eleemosynary
relief had been adopted, which was alike ruinous to the
resources of the union and demoralising to the poor. In
the two years ending September, 1849, there bad been
expended in 11 unions in the counties Clare, Mayo, and
Galway, a sum of 725,0001. in poor relief; and of that
amount the unions themselves contributed only 250.3781.,
the remainder, neirly amounting to 500,0004 having to
be furnished by the tax- payers of England and the con-
tributors to the rate-in-aid in Ireland. Again, in t`-r,
Limerick union, in the half-year ending September,
1849, there had been 61,0001. expended in supporting
12,000 pauper?, of whom more than three-fourths, or
9,358 were able-bodied; and to show the system of mis-
management that was pursued in thet union—how little
care was given to employing all this able-bodied
labouring power in a reproductive manner upon the
land, he might mention that on the day he visited the
workhouse be found that all those able-bodied paupers
had been sent to bed, though it was then only six
o'clock on a fine summer .evening.--(Cries of "Divide,
divide.") The employment he should recommend was
such as would improve the land—(Divide, divide)—
arterial drainage. —(Divide, divide,) The Honeurattle
Gentleman, still persisting in his endeavours to obtain
a hearing, notwithstanding the impatience of the House,
was again and again met with the steady continuous
cry " Divide, divide." At last, during a pause, he said
he only wished to impress on the Home the necessity of
looking for the future to a better mode of expendi-
ture. The Hon. Ceentiereaa then resumed his seat
amidst cheers.

Major BLACKALL could not agree to the amend-
ment.

After a few words from Colonel DUNNIi,
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said the Bill hid been received
with great favour in the west of Ireland. He tbotult
it would be advisable for Hon. Mensbers who did not
represent those unions which were most distressed, not
to exact as much as in the cases of really distressed
unions.

Mr. MONSELL observed, in reference to the Limerick
union, that the only day on which the Honourable Gen-
thunan who had just sat down had visited the workhouse
in that union was a Sunday—(Laughter)—and he
thought the House would be able to see whether there
was any ground for his strictures on the Limerick guar-
dians when they found him complaining that they had
sent the paupers to beck, instead of employing them in
the cultivation of the land, at six o'clock in the evening
on a Sunday.—(Chrers and laughter.)
Colonel DUNNE observed the impatience of the
House, and would, if necessary, move that the House
should adjourn,—(Cries of " Adjourn.") He only
wished to say that the Government asked money on
the present occasion, not on account of the Irish poor-
lay guardians, hut on account of the mismanagement of
the Government's own officers, who had increased the
debts of the unions to a very great extent.

Mr. HAYTER moved that the House on its rising do
adjourn until I'd on ay next.
WOODS AND FORESTS.

Lord DUNCAN said, as it appeared from what trans-
pirod last night in the lionsP, the sooner they had i% re-
sponsible Minister for the Board of Works the better,
ho would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, whether it was his intention to proceed with
the Woods and Forests Bill on Monday text, the day
on which it stood on the orders of the armee?
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to sly he could
not promise, whether the Bill would be brought on on
that day.
COLONIAL ASSURANCE COMPANY.

Mr. ROEBUCK directed the attention of the Go-
vernment to 'a Bill now before the Hon for incorpo-
rating a C )lonial Assurance Company, which he hoped
the GOvernment would look into with the view of seeing
whether it would interfere with the provisions of the
Australian Colonies Bill.
OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITIES.

Lord J. RUSSELL rose to explain a statement
which he (Lord J. Russell) had made to the House
respecting the lectures given by the professors of 'modern
history at Oxford and Cambridge, but was very indis-
tinctly heard. He was understood to say that he was
wrong in supposing that Sir James Stephen, the professor
at Cambridge, was restricted to giving one lecture a
week. It appeared, however, from his own statement,
that lie could not give more than 25 lectures to
the students, which on the average would be one a week
for the academical year.
Mr. GOULBURN observed that what he said the
other evening in the House was that some professors
gave three leetures a week, but that they were not com-
p elled to give more than one.
KING'S-ROAD, CHELSEA.

Sir PAKINGTON gave notice, that on going into
Committee of Supply, he should plias question to the
Hon. and Learned Attorney-General on the subject of
the King's-road, Chelsea.
DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND RE-
PAYMENTS OF ADVANCES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the question for going into Committee on the Bill,
Col. SIB fiIORP rose to move tat the Bill be com-
mitted that day six months. If he thought tae grant would
benefit Ireland he would not object to it, nor would he
refase,to support any measure that was calculated to
improve the condition of that part of the country; but
the feat was, this grant was proposed for nothing more
nor lees than to cover the delinquencies and the mis-
government of Ministers in the sister kingdom,—(A
keels.) When he was at school ha was taught to
beltsve that two and two made four—(A laugh)—and
that two taken from four left two remaining—(A laugh)
—but the returns which had been Lid upon the table on
the subject of these advances to Ireland did not appear
to go upon that rule.—(A laugh.) The amount of loans
and grants made during the past ten years—
the return did not refer to what bad
l. e en lent before_amounted to no less than 1,227,402/.
13s. 2d., the loans to 8.751,225/. I7s.
.
was Bc/., of which
322,1371.1 ls. 4d. had been repaid, leaving 5,519,804/.
6 4anawful sum—still due, and yet in the face of
this it proposed to advance an additional
300,0001. Now before this grant was sereal to
the House and the public had a right
what • chance there was of • 'to know
had lent money it back. He
himself, agneranign some instances
be never got it back egaire—(dacgla) He was now,
however, not such a fool; he never lent money now
without good security, while be took good care
i 2 to let
the naan have no more who had neverpaid
swab:l,—(A laugh.) Now that was precisely The back
they ought to go upon here. The question w h
was the money to be collected and from whole' War it
to be collected.
Mr. HERBERT said, when statements were made and
assertions hazarded in that House so totally at variaace
with the facts, he thought it the duty of 90018 Irish Um-
ber to take the first opportunity of making a few obser-
vations on Irish loans and finances. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer had expressed a certain amount of imps.,
tience at Son. Members entering into the whole question
of Ireland, when particular measures were brought be-
fore the House, And to a certain extent be agreed with
him, but when unfounded statements were made by
persons who were unacquainted with the social condition
of that country. he though it right that they should be
contradicted. It had been asserted loudly that an Irish
loan was the same as an Irish grant. But what was the
nature of an Irish loan? He hold in his band a return
which had been moved for by the Hon. Member for
Glasgow (Mr. Macgregor), and which showed in a very
distinct and compreheasivo manner the financial post-
tion as regarded thiscountry. It appeared from that docu.
went that from the year 1817, when the English and Irish
Exchequers were consolidated to 1845, the total loans
advanced to Ireland amounted to 11,326,5961.; and of
that sum as much as 8,483 0001. had been repaid. He
would not discuss the
policy of those loans,
but there could
be no doubt that they would
be of great advantage to this country. He
left out the loans during the last three years of the
a
famine, because they stood on different principle, sod
he should have a few remarks to make about them by
and by. He was quite ready adm it that many of
these loans had been devoted to
to speculations
not succeeded, but still he felt he should ultbe which had
able to con-
vince the House of the injustice of the charwlx,t,ih at an Irish
loan was no better than an Irish grant.
,843
001, then out
of the 11,320,000/. there was now only 2
and part of even that balance was not eft due. unpaid,
notwithstanding the unparalleled misfortune of
country, she had actually repaidofAethde
3115d7710:81 during
m adeoo/.;
very,period of the famine. In 1846 she repaid 370 the
in 1847, 514,0001.; and in 1848,
total of 1,241,0001. repaid during the continirance of making
famine. Sir John Burgoyne stated in his evidence that
the Government had gained considerable sums of money
by those loans to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It might be
said that was an Irish statement, bat it was true.
That gentleman had conclusively proved that the net
profit to the Government on those transactions with

The House then divided, wlen there appeared—
For the amendment ... ... 12
Against it ... 132
Majority... —l2O
The amendment was therefore lost, and the House
went into Committee.
The preamble of the Bill was postponed.

On clause 1,

The CEI ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
the liabilities of Ireland• in. Dec., 1848 were 513.0001.;
whereas on the 31st December last they were 392,0001.
The sum of 300,0001. advanced under the Bill would be
applied to the discharge of these liabilities, which at-
tached to about thirty unions. The liabilities might be
estimated at 270,0001., as regarded these unions; the re,
mining 50,0001. would be applicable to the discharge of
the liabilities of electoral districts.
Mr. A. STAFFORD said it was undeniable that the
expenses of these unions had been increased by the de-
lay in passing the Bill. The Bill was one to place the
whole rateable property of Ireland in the hands of Sir
Charles Trevelyan, inasmuch as the boards of guar.
diens, in this instance, were mere cyphers, obliged
to act under directions from the Treasury, and having
no option.
The clause was agreed to.
• On clause 2,

The CLIANbELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
whole sum due from Ireland under the Advances Act
was 4,235,0001. To this the present sum of 300,0001.
being added, would make in all 4,535,000/. due from
Ireland.

The clause was added to the Bill.
On clause 3,

Mr. A. STAFFORD said this clause placed the whole
of the rateable property of Ireland at the mercy of the
Treasury. Nothing, in fact, could increase or exagge-
rate the powers given under the Bill to the Commis-
sioners of her Majesty's Treasury. It was perfectly pos-
sible by its agency fur the Treasury to ruinany proprietor
by apportioning the debt due on townlands and by ad-
justing the time for its repayment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
amendment he proposed to introduce to this clause was
to enable them to lay a rate on the electoral divisions.
With regard to the powers conferred by the Bill, he did
not see any other means of dealing with the variety of
questions raised in its operation than through their
adoption. Nothing short'of the permission of, absolute
discretion to the Treasury would be efficacious.

After a few words from Mr. CLEMENTS and Mr.
MONSELL,
Colonel DUNNE said he thought there should be no
discretion given to the Commissioners of the Treasury,
but that a scale should be settled by Parliament.
Mr. HAMILTON thought there was no difficulty in
fixing by law the amount of apportionment.
Major BLACKALL was in favour of a graduated
scale for apportionment and repayment, but he was
given to understand that it was impossible with the max-
imum of 40 years settled by law. Ho thought a rate of
6d. in the pound on every townland in Ireland would be
fair and equitable for the country, and profitable for the
Treasury.
Lord, NAAS said the Bill contained an arbitrary
power as regarded the Treasury.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
have no objection to a uniform rate for all Ireland, hut
he did not see that the preposition was practicable.
Major BLACKALL was satisfied with the Right
Lion. Gentleman's expression of opinion in favour of the
principle.
Mr. CLEMENTS said that the Clare and Limerick
unions, under the Bill, wouldT have the full measure of
time meted out to the
aweo
iutl havedwas wae lesserll k eLeteii.mmunlee.er.
itch
other
noiothnesr
wuearieonass
mofuelhreldtteisd..
Limerick
a°hinsdwcalasrne.ot quite equitable,
tre jasre.d
HasAthmolsLe
N proposed,
with
each union was
the view of appor-
tioning rateablyTotaOn and accurately thesum
to pay, to make an addition to
the clause.-
Viscount BERNARD said the power of determiningmigt
the proper proportion each union was to p
n would
thet
most advantage be traasferred to the joyorb svith
missioners. The benefit of such an arran
crneoei-el Poor-law Com-
missioners.
be to let unions, as well as individuals, kw
amount of their liability, and when it would have exact
oxabeet
discharged.
Colonel DUNNE did not think the words of the clause
were as clear as they might be.
Lord NAAS wished some words inserted to limit the
power of the Commissioners.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said all
parties were agreed as to what was intended by the clause.
He had no objection, however, to insert any words that
would make the meaning more clear.
Mr. HAMILTON having furnished his explanatory
addition, it was inserted in the clause.
Mr. CLEMENTS proposed that certain words he
omitted, and to insert the words " forty years."
The gallery was cleared fur a division.
On our re-admission no amendment was still under
delatte.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Bill was intended as a
relief to Ireland, and ha did not think it was fair on the
pert of some Iron. Members to meet it is Luch a sprit
as had been evinced,
Mr. STAFFOUD thought the Noble Lord was hardly
justifital in his reproach, considering the division which
had just taken place.

Mr. SCULLY thought the time ought to be extended
in proportion to the necessities of the union.
Mr. ROCHE hoped the Government would reconsider
the proposition of the s Hon. Member for Leitrim. It
was originally understood that the time fixed for re-
payment was to be firty years, and the moral effect of
the measure would be greatly diminished whoa it was
seen that the matter was left in the discretion of the
Treasury. He bad the greatest confidence in the in-
tentions of the present Government, but it would be
scarcely prudent to reckon on their holding office for
that period.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 31
Majority ..• ••• ••• , ..• —54
Clause 3 was then agreed to, as were elmasei 4,5,
and 6.
On clause 7,

Mr. MONSELL wished to know how soon the work-
houses would be commenced at the want of them would
very much impair the good effect arising from dividing
the unions?

Mr. STAFFORD, in reference to the division of
unions, begged to remind the Government of the repested
end strong remonstrances which had coma from Limerick
against the alteration of the territorial distribution; and
hoped they would leave that union with its ancient
limits.

Mr. HERBERT expressed a similar hope with refer-
ence to the union of Kerry.
Mr. FRENCH thought the alteration of territorial
divisions most advantageous to Ireland; but he wished
to point out one hard ,hip Which had been inflicted on
some townlsnds, which had been transferred from one
electoral division to another. The result of which was,
that they had to pay the assess rents of both. He knew
an instance in which a townland bad been subjected to a
rate cf 33. struck just before the chang,., and it was also
liable to a rate of 4s. struck just atter its incorporation
with the new electoral division.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
that nothing was more essential than to erect work-
houses in those unions. All he could say was that last
year the Government provided as much money as they
were told by the Poor-law Coramisiioners would be re-
quired till the 31st March. He was not able to. give
more &titled information, but would make inquiries
into the matter. With reference to tin circumstance
mentioned by the lion. Member who had just spoken, it
might be a hardship, but it did not follow that it was an
injustice; for the rate made by the district J.: corn which
the townland in question was serwated was no doubt
made to defray past.exr,enditure, of which the towniand
had had the benefit.

The clause was then agreed to.
The Bill passed through Committee, and was ordere3
to be reported.
KING'S-ROAD, EcITON-SQUARE.

On the motion for going into CommiTtee of Supply,
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he was enabled, by the
kindness of the Hon. Member for Glasgow, who had
waived his right t> precedence, to put the question to
the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General of which he
had given him notice, with regard to the differences that
had arisen between the trustees of the Grosvenor-place
district and the Marquis of Westminster, as to the repair
f f the highway known by the nano of the King's-road.
It was well known by many that the state of that road
had become an intolerable nuisance to those who resided
in that part of Lyndon.--(lfear, bear.) He did not
come forward as one of the trucces. He put the ques-
tion as a ratepayer, and be believed he spoke the senti-
ments of all his fallow-ratpayer3 when he said that he
considered himself directly tggrieved in his property
by the Marquis cf Westminster. He was glad to see
the Noble Earl the Member for Chester in his place. He
was supported in his view by high legal authorities. The
origin of this question -

Mr. ANSTEY rose to order. In acquiescing, to-
gether with the Hon. Member for Glasgow, in giving
precedence to the Hon. Baronet, he understood his in-
tention to be to confine himself strictly to the question
which he was desirous to put. The Hon. Baronet was
now, however, going into a long statement, which would
give the Noble Eart to whom ho had alluded, and others,
the right to reply, and the result would be a debate
which would probably shut out the lion. Member
for Glasgow, and would most certainly exclude him (Mr.
Anstey).—(A. laugh.)
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member would wit be
excluded.

Mr. ANSTEY—There will be no time.—(Langhter.)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Baronet has a right to
speak on the question that I leave the chair.
Sir J. PAKINGTON continued—The origin of this
dispute was an agreement entered into in 1820 between
the Marquis of Westminster and the Crown, by which
an exchange was made of the then existing King's-road
for that largo thoroughfare, now known by the same
name, which passed through Eaton-square. All knew
the great advantages which the Marquis of Westminster
bad derived from that change, for the north aide of
Eaton-square, one of the handsomest rows of private
mansions in this or any other metropolis, was built upon
the site of the old King's-road.— (Hear.) The condition
f the exchange was an undertaking by the Marquis of
Westminster for himself and his heirs to complete this
line of road, and maintain it for ever thereafter fir the
use of the King and his heirs and successors, and for the
use of the said Marquis his heirs and successors and all
other his Majesty's subjects, reserving to his Majesty
the tight to place a bar to preserve the privacy of the
road, but to keep the road in repair for ever, for the
itso of all his Majesty's subjects. Subsequently, at the
instance of the Marquis of Westminster, an Act of
Parliament was passed transferring the manage-
ment of the roads of the district to certain
trustees. He now came to a part of the transaction
to which ho knew considerable importance was attached
by some. In 1830 the Crown abandoned this as a
private road, and the trustees of the Grosvenor-place
district, in perfect ignorance of any covenant between
the Marquis and the Crown, commenced reparing the
road, and continued to do so for about three years. At
the end of that time the existence of the covenant was
discovered, and a negotiation took place with Lord
Westminster, the result of which was that the Marquis,
after having investigated the circumstances of the case,
made an arrangement with the trustees, by which he
undertook to pay 150/. a year for the repair of the road,
which he continued to pay till his death in 1844. After
his death the trustees continued to repair the road, pre-
suming, of course, that they were to receive the 1501.
annually. After the lapse of soma time the present
Marquis refused to continue the payment, and in con-
sequence of his refusal the trustees thought it necessary
to take a legal opinion, and the case was submitted to
eminent counsel, Mr. Watson and Mr. Hayes, and
their opinion was that the Marquis of West-
minster was liable to repair the road by virtue of
his covenant, and that his liability _was not affected
by local Acts, nor by what took place in
1830. After this opinion the trustees would not hare
been justified in expending the money of- the ratepayers
without an attempt to enforce the obligation created by
the deed of 1820, and they thought that the leave of the
Crown would be granted to bring an action. After this
opinion the trustees proceeded to lay the same case be-
fore two other most eminent counsel, both of whom he
rejoiced to see in the House. The counsel were the
Hon. Attorney and Solicitor-General, and he begged to
recall the attention of the Hon. and Learned Attorney-
General to his own opinion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I am aware of it.
Sir J. PAKINGTON—The Hon. and Learned Attor-
ney-General said, prima facie, the parish was bound to
repair the road, but the Marquis was also liable to the
Crown upen his covenant to repair. That the covenant
could only be enforced by the Commission of Woods and
Forests, and tbst the trustees ought to apply to the
Commissioners of Woods and Forests; but their an-
swer was that they had nothing to do with the matter;
that the bargain was between the Marquis of West-
minster and the Crown, and that permission to sue
must he granted by the Attorney-General, and not by
them. The trustees again applied to the Attorney-Ge-
neral; bit in answer the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman stated that he had considered the circumstances
stated in the memorial; that he had declined to allow
his name to be used; and that the covenant was evidently
intended to relieve the Crown from the liability arising
from the alteration of the road, and not for the benefit of
the public at .large. He begged the attention of the
House to the expression that the covenant was not in-
tended for the benefit of the public at large, because be
had just referred to the opinion of the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that the Marquis 'of Westminster
was bound to repair the road for the use of her Majesty's
subjects. The trustees naturally felt surprised at this
opinion of the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman in
October, when in the June previous he had given it as his
opinion that the Marquis of Westminster was bound to
repair. Id consequence of this opinion the trustees held
a meeting and passed resolutions to the effect that the
reasons given by the Attorney-General were not well
founded, and were not consistent with the joint opinion
given by himself and the Solicitor-General. They
determined to renew the application to the Attorney-
General for permission to sue, and applied to him ac-
cordingly. The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
in answer, stated that they were mistaken in supposing
that there was any inconsistency between the opinion of
himself and the Solicitor-General, that the Marquis of
Westminster was liable to repair, and his own refusal to
enforce the covenant. The Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman stated that between the question whether
there was a legal liability and the propriety of enforcing
it there was a marked distinction. He thought there
was that in this assertion which clearly called for a
public explanation from the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman. In his opinion, ii was not fur the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman to take on himself the
question as to the propriety of enforcing the covenant.
The ratepayers felt that the Marquis of Westminster
bad derived great pecuniary advantages from the
change. They had the authority of the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman himself that the Marquis of West-
minster was liable in law to repair the road; and
surely they were entitled to some voice as to the pro.
prioty of enforcing that liability. In stating his reasons
for his opinion, the Right Honourable and Learned
Gentleman said that the trustees of the Grosvenor dis-
trict had obtained an Act of Parliament on the subject.
The Act in question had not been obtained by the trus-
tee:, but by the Marquis of Westminster himself for the
benefit of his own estate. The opinion of the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman was, therefore, erroneous
in matter of fact. Too Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, in the conclusion of his answer, again re-
fused permission to the ratepayers to decide the merits
of the case in a court of law. In consequence of these
repeated refusals of the Right Ron. and Learned Gen-

LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, APRIL 275 1850.

tleman the trustees took the opinion of a gentleman '
eminent in his profession, Mr. Rolla Queen's counsel.
Mr. Rolt, in his opinion, stated that there was no appeal
to any legal tribunal from the decision of the Attorney-
General refusing the use of his name to sue the Marquis
of Westminster. Mr. Rolt proceeded to say, that though
the legal remedy was doubtful, the advisers of the Crown
would do an act of injustice to the ratepayers either by
attempting to release the covenant or by refusing to sue
on it. He had no hesitation in subscribing to that
opinion. In conclusion, Mr. Rolt advised the trustees
to lay the whole matter again before the Attorney-
General, and stated, that if the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman still declined to permit the suit, the only
course for the trustees to take would be to appeal to the
Government or the Legislature for assistance. A
deputation proposed to wait on the Noble Lord, the
Prime Minister, on the subject; but he declined to re-
ceive them, as he considered a point of law to be at
issue. As a rate-payer, he now acted on the second
suggestion of Mr. Rolt, and made his appeal to the Le-
gislature. He would more especially make his appall
to the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the
earnest hope that ho would re•consider his decision, and
not persevere in refusing those parties to go into a court
of law. He hal been informNi that the Marquis of
Westminster himself was most anxious that this matter
should be deaidel by a court of lair. He did not wish
to detain the House, but there were one or two passages.
—(Cries of " Question," and " Order")—

Mr. ANSTEY rose to order—He-wished to know
wbother the argument raised by the Hon. Member—
which had lasted now for half an hour—came within
the definition of a statement preliminary to putting a
question?
The SPEAKER said that, on the question that the
Speaker leave the chair, it was competent for any Mem-
ber to bring forward a question of grievance. The quei.
tion before the Howe was, that he should now leave the
chair. The Hon. Baronet was speaking to that question,
'and it would be improper in him to interfere.

ANSTEY wished to know whether, iaving given
notice of an amendment on the question that the Speaker
leave the chair previous to Committee of Supply, ho was
not entitled to bring on his amendment, inasmuch as the
Hon. Member for Glasgow, whose notice of amendment
stood before his, had given way.
The SPEAKER said if the lion. Baronet had given
notice that he would conclude with a motion, the Hoe.
Member would have been entitled to precedence, lent he
had merely intimated his intention to put a question.
Sir J. PARINGTON said he hoped it would be some
consolation to the lion. Member fir Youghal to know
that he was nearly dune. He aas about to say, that in
consequence of the opinion of Mr. Rolt a conference was
held with the Right Hun. and Learned Gentleman the
Attorney-General on the subject, at which the Right
lion. and Learned Gentleman admitted that on his fiat
rested the whole responsibility, and that he had to look
to all the circumstances of the case.—(Cries of " Ques-
tion.") lie complained that the Right Hoe. and lammed
Gentleman had not looked to all the circumstances of
the case.—(Renewed cries of "Question.") He was
sorry to detain the House at such length.—(Hear.) He
did not, however, think that the House had any right to
complain of his bringing forward a question involving
the rights of a very large 'portion of the inhabitants of
the metropolis. In the abstract of the proceedings which
he held in his hand there was an expression used in
reference to the conduct of the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, which he would not repeat—which he re-
gretted had been used, and to which he would not
subscribe. He should appeal to the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, as a constitutional
statesman, and ask him whether it was right that
any authority in this country should interfere to
debar any portion of her Majesty's athjects from ap-
pealing to a court of law to decide the merits of any
question of grievance they might have.—(Hr ae, hear.)
All that the ratepayers in this case naked was permission
to go to a court of law. The Attorney. General, avail-
ing himselt of a technicality, said they should not be
alloyed to do so. elle was at a loss to know whet
answer the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman could
give.—(Cries of "Question,") He was not disposed to
detain the House longer than he could help, but if the
Hon. Member for Youghal resorted to those uncourteous
interruptions he should certainly go on to a much
greater length.—(Laud cries cf "Oh.") The indict-
ment preferred against the trustees was of an extraor-
dinary nature, and would not, it was believed, raise the
question at issue.—(Cries of Question" renewed.) He
should conclude by asking the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to give some explanation of the grounds
upon which he felt himself justified in debarring the
ratepayers from trying the merits of the question in a
court of law, and to state whether he intended to perse-
vere in refusing them permission to rue.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL felt it would be some-
what inconvenient for him to enter into any general
statement of the grounds of his decision, particularly as
an indictment was now pending against the trustees f rt.
non repair of the road. He should, however, partly
answer the question of the Right Hon. Baronet. He did
not complain that the Hon. Baronet had not put on the
paper of to-day the question he intended to put. The
Hon. Baronet had told him of his intention to put the
question; but not having put it on the votes, probably
some Member, who might have wisbel to make a state.
mont on the subject, had been prevented doing so. Of
that, however, he made no complaint.

Sir J. PAVING TON did not think the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman wished to misrepresent what
he had dour. He had put a question on the paper be-
fore the holidays, and he had now put the same question
of which he had given notice. Last night he gave
public notice that he intended to put the question today
on the order for Committee of supply, and he had also
last night informed the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman of his intention.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he made no
complaint of the course taken by the Hon. Baronet in
regard t) his notice. He perceived that on the Mon-
day after the holidays the Hon. Baronet gave not'ee
that he would ask him whether he intended to persevere
in his refusal to allow the suit in question; and last
night the Hon. Baronet told him that he would put the
question on the order for going into Committee of Sup-
ply. Of that course he did nut complain. but he k.t Aed
that ho thought some Hon. Members, from the notice
not being on the votes of the day, might be in ignorance
that the question was to be brought forward. He was
glad to find that the Hon. Baronet did not subscribe to
the expression which had been made use of in the pro-
ceedings with reference to himself. Any one who knew
the nature of his connexion with the city of Chester
knew that be was not assailable on that point, and those
who had made use of the expression, and those who be-
lieved it, were utterly beneath his contempt. He
quite agreed with the Hon. Baronet that the rate-
payers had a great grievance to complain of. He
himself was a ratepayer, and lived but a few doors from
the Hon. Baronet. The grievance of which they
had to complain were four-fold—(Laughter.) The coal
was not watered—it was not lighted; and, therefore,
was made the receptacle of every improper thing—(A
laugh)—it was not cleansed, and was not kept in repair.
The commissioners were bound to water, light, and
cleanse the road; and he could not understand why these
three things should not be done merely because it was
not kept in repair by the Marquis of Wesminster. The
Marquis of Westminster said that the road having been
thrown open to the public it should be repaired in the
same manner in which all other similar highways were
repaired. With respect to the duty of the Attorney •
General, he would say that noconsiderations would keep
him from performing the official task which would be
imposed on him; but having consulted the highest legal
authorities, atter having been ia communication with the
Marquis of We3tinnster, it appeared the most sound
opinions were, that no legal proceedings should be
taken.

Alr. GRANVILLE BERKELEY asked the lion.
and Laarne.l Gentleman what the trustees were to do?

The ATTORNEY GENERAL ;aid, that, having
been unfortunate in giving a professional opinion, he
would ❑et hazard an unprofessional one.
Lord CASTLEREAGH hoped that his lion. Friend
below him would take the sense of the House on the
question on some future occasion by moving an Address
to the Crown.
Mr. MARTIN expressed his concurrence with the
view taken of the subject by the Attorney-General.l
Lord R. GROSVENOR referred to-several legal opi-
nions to show that the Marquis of Westminster was not
supposed liable to the repair of the road referred to.
Lord C. HAMILTON thought as there was such a di-
versity of opinion amongst the highest legal authorities,
that that was a reason why the ratepayers ought to be
allowed the privilege which all British subjects enjoyed,
of an appeal to a court of law.
The discussion then dropped.
STAMPS ON SHIPPING PAPERS.

Mr. MACGREGOR then moved, pursuant to notice,
that in consideration of the recent changes in the navi-
gation-laws, and consistently with the state of the re-
venue, it was expedient the stamps on marine emir-
nieces, bills of lading, charter parties, and other shipping
documents should be abolished.
Lord J. MANNERS seconded the motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
should give the same answer in the negative to that pro-
position which he had given to a similar one a snort
time since. After the remissions which had boa already
given notice of, he could not undertake to make any fur-
ther reduction in duties than what he had already spe-
cified. With respect to the policy of repealing the tax
he had only to observe, that be thought it his duty to
abstain from expressing any opinion on the subject upon
that occasion, because ho felt that he ought to reserve
for himself an unfettered discretion as to the financial
policy which he should hereafter pursue.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad not alleged
one single argument in favour of the continuance of that
most objectionable tax. It was a tax which was ob-
jectionable at all times, but which was peculiarly se at
the present time, when the shipping interest were de-
prived of the protection they had formerly enjoyed
under the navigation-lawe. The continuance of the tax
was at present not only objectionable but most unjust;
and he hoped the Hon. Gentleman opposite would press
his motion to a division.
Mr. Alderman THO‘IPSON said that no such duties
as these were levied in the United States, at Ilarnburgh,
or at the greater portion of the principal ports of the
Continents and the result was, to his knowledge, that
the shipowners of this country effected marine insurances
there to a very large extent. The stamps on charter
parties were or very trifling amount, and were therefore
hardly deserving of any consideration; but the stamps
on insurances were felt as a very hesay tax, and mili-
tated very seriously against the business of underwriters.
Mr. HUME said that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had appealed on that, as on firmer oceeeions, to the set-
tkreent he had made on the subject of texatiou for the
present year; but, in his (sir. flume's) opinion, the
Right Hon. Jent:emon would have done much het..er if
h© had considered the pledges which he had given, lid
which he had not redeemed, at the period of tun passing
of the repeal of the navigation-haws. P.Tviously to the
adoption of that measure he had &Aced her Maksty's

Ministers whether they would be prepared to relieve the
shipping interest from all those burdens which could
prevent them from competing on equal terms with
foreigners; and to that question he had received an
answer in the affirmative. In his opinion the continu-
ance of those duties would be an act of injustice to which
the House ought not to give its sanction.
Lord J. RUSSELL denied that her Majesty's
Ministers had given any pledge, at the time of the
passing of the measure for the repeal of the naviga-
don-laws, that they would abolish those duties. Neither
his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor, nor his
Right Honourable Friend the President of the Board of
Trade hadgiven any such assurance. The Hon. Gentle-
man the Member fJr Montrose was, therefore, mistaken
upon that point; and he should further observe that he
should bare thought the Hon. Gentleman would have
wished to see the navigation-laws repealed without any
condition. The qtrstion then at issue was not whether
the tax in qu?stion was in itself desirable. He did not
mean to contend that it was so; but he thought that
they ought to continu3 it as a portion of that financial
arrangement by which the credit of the country was to
'be maintained.

Mr. DUNCAN said that he had vote!! for a repeal of
the navigation-laws on condition that after that repeal
all unnecessary restrictions on the shipping interest, such
as the duties then under their consideration, should be
removed.

Mr. HENLEY said he only regretted that Hon.
Gentlemen opposite had not held their votes on the
navigation-laws until they should hive found that the
ustrictions on th:, 51:4piog interest of which they dis-
approved hid been repealed.—(Hear, hear.) In his
opinion they ought not t') have thrown their constituents
(!verboard,,as they had done. He agreed with the
Noble Lord below him (Lord J. Manners) that the
Government hal made out no ease a continuance of
that tax.

The House then divid?d, when there appeared—
For Mr. Ma:.:Gregor's motion ... 89
Ag tinst it ... ... 156
1111 j -why against the m,,tion
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

On the crvatian bang again put that the Speaker
should leave the chair,

Mr. DISRAELI rose and said that before the House
consented to vote any more money, it ought to he in pos-
session of the financial statement of the Government f
the year. At present the House was without that in-
-I)rmstion. It was true that nearly two months ago
Ministers favoured the House with a general view of the
finances of the country, and of what they intended to
do as regarded the remission of taxation. It had al-
ways be held to be a twitter cf great importance that
the financial statement of the year should be made as
early in the session as possible, in order that, before
voting the supplies, Members might be able to form
an opinion as to whether their constituents could bear
the burden of the taxes necessary for raising the sup-
plies. It was therefore essential that the House should
be made aequainted with the exact financial position of
the Government—shoo hl know what taxes would pro-
bably be repealed, before they could firm an opinion as
to the possibility of meeting the exigency of the occasion.
A Government always looked upon it as a matter of
great self-gratulation and just pride to be able to make
a financial statement at an early period of the session.
To do the Government justice, it must be admitted that
they had taken an early opportunity of making their
financial statement to the House this session; hut, unfor-
tunately, the budget, which was opened nearly two
months ago, was not yet finishes!.—(blear, and laughter )
It was not impossible that the House might find i:self in
the same position as in that remarkable year 1848, when
the Government began their financial statement on the
17th of February, and did rot bring it to a close until
the 25th August.—(Cheers and laughter.) There
were indications that the Government was about to pur-
sue a similar career this session. Iu 1848 Ministers got
entangled in the course of their financial statement with
the sugar duties. They proceeded with a new Sugar
Bill, which was not succeslul. They produced a simi-
lar one, which met a :similar unhappy fate. A third was
produced. All these Bills were accompanied with a
schedule, such as those criticised so successfully by the
House, that Ministers had found themselves hitherto
in the same position as in 1848. Nearly two months
had elapsed, and though the Goverment com-
menced the session with the exposition of
their views with respect to the finance of the country
—views, of course, matured, well-digested, and the
consequence of many counsels—it was now the 26th of
April, and no Member had a clear idea of what were
the objects and what would be the effect of the policy
of the Government as to finance.--(Hear, hear.) It was
a matter of great importance, especially af.e: the late
division, that the Government should fairly tell the
House whether they intend to proceed, he did not say
with their messurse respecting stamps, for that was
given up entirely, but whether they intended to introduce
A new measure. All that bad haepened hitherto was
the refusal of an excise duty. No one could pretend that
that that was the budget of the Government. All that
recommended it was, that it repealed an excise duty and
not a customs duty—recognizing a salutary principle.
There was a certain indulgence which was always to be
exhibited towards the finance of a Whig Ministry.—(A
laugh.) The Government could not be expec ed to excel
in every branch. The foreign policy of the Government,
by its peremptory decrees, maintained the dignity of
the country, and by numerous blockades vindi-
cated the supremacy of the seas.— (Hear, beer.) The
Colonial-office by its ingenuity in manufacturing consti-
tutions, upheld the well-earned reputation of this coun-
try for being foremost in promoting liberal institutions.
And the Government had always in their pigeon-holes
some scheme or other which would inevitably render
Ireland rich and Englandcontent. These were circum-
stances which compensated for an occasional deficit, and
sometimes for a propositioa to double the income-tax.
The finance of the Government was a subject which
ought always to be treated with indulgence. , But there
was a limit even to Parliamentary patience; and, as two
months had elapsed since the exposition of the Govern-
ment, and as there was no prospect of their ideas being
fulfilled, it would-be indiscreet in the House to vote the
public money without giving them an opportunity of
telling clearly what were their intentions.—(Hear.) On
his side of the House they were particularly interested.
He assumed (it was not a monstrous assumption) that no
more would be heard of the Stamp Act, because the case
of that Act was a much more aggravated case of Minis-
terial incompetence than that of the sugar duties;
and if three failures in the Sugar Bills brought an end
of the budget on the 25th of August, it followed that
four failures in the Stamp Act already amounted almost
to a certainty that the original scheme of the Government,
or any one similar to it, could no longer be contemplated
as a political probability,—(Hear, hear.) What was
the principle of the budget? More embarrassed with a
surplus than ever they hal been with a deficiency—
(Hear, hear)—her Majesty's Ministers resolved to re-
csenise the claims of a great interest which was suffering
and which, from a peculiar combination of circumstances,
was universally recognised as this only interest suffering.
—(hear, hear.) Relief to the agricultural interest was
a voluntary offer on the part of her Majesty's Ministers.
A certain sum was allotted—a particular amount appro-
priated to be given immediately and distinctly to the re-
lief of that interest.. They came forward to remind him
of his promise with no ill grate, because in the interval
they had made more than one attempt to relieve
interests which to tkeir astonishment they found
were also suffering—(Hear, hear)--without reference
to their own prior cleans, and perfectly ready to relin-
qaish those claims in favour of their suffering fellow-
subjects--(Heir, hear.) Those attempt: had not
succeeded; one, within the last five minutes, had
failed, and now, when Ministers asked theca to form
thmselras into Committee of Supply and vote public
money, he wanted some distinct explanation of the inten-
tions of Government and c-f the means in order to secure
that relief for the suffering interest of agriculture which
had been so long and so voluntarily promised.—(Hear.)
Had the circumstances which prompted Ministers to
come forward at the end of February and announce that
a considerable portion of their surplus was ready, as it
ought to be, for the relief of that interest, ceased to ope-
rate? Had the circumstances which had occurred since
in regard to that interest rendered their exigencies less
severe, or were they of a nature which could justify Mi-
nisteri in changing their opinion on the distress of the
agricultural interest?—(Hear, hear.) There was an
opinion prevalent on the Treasury bench—it had often
been intimated—that after Easter they would meat with
more cheerful countenances, and that the passing cloud
which lowerel over the broad fields of England would
have vanished. Was it so? There were plenty of wit-
hessea in that House who could give testimony. They
were told on high authority—that of members of the Go-
vernment in another place—that the unprecedented de-
pression of agriculture arose from exceptional causes—
(Hear, hear)—but in what respect was it to be under-
stood that low prices were exceptional ? He thought it
was to obtain low prices that they, changed their legis-
lation.—(Hear, hear.) He could not agree that the
'circumstances were exceptional. It was not for the
credit of the present or of the late Government to believe
that these circumstances were exceptional. If wheat
were selling at 89e. a quarter, he could not understand
the logic which would make a free trader say the circum-
stances were exceptional; but when wheat was selling
at 355. the quarter, instead of denouncing the circum-
stances as exceptional, those who had supported free
trade ought to say tho effect was most legitimate.—
(Hear, hear.) By unhappy acts, of which the House were
aware—by logical deduction from the new philosophy—
he must regard this effect as one of a permanent cha-
racter; and, if it were so, it was of still more import-
ance that Ministers should state what they intended to
do for the relief of the airleultural interest. Assum-
ing their legislation on stamps to be deficient, he
should ask, if relief to that interest were neces-
sary two months ago, whether it was not surely still
more urgent how ? and on an occasion like the present,
when they were asked as a matter of course to go into
Committee of Supply, and vote away taxes wrung from
a suffering community, the most unhappy of whom those
on his side of the House represented—distress acknow-
ledged by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were always
boasting of their own prosperity—(Hear, hear)—he
thought it his duty to say fleet the time had gone by
when, as a matter of course, the Government could have
a Committee of Supply.—(flee.r, hear.) While their
financial statement was imperfect—he would not say dis-
gracefully imperfect, because a harsh phrase would not
mend the case of the agriculturists—and when a part of
the scheme was relief from taxation for suffering portions
of the community, he invited the Government, before
they asked the House to vote away money, to come
forward and declare distinctly whether they intended
another attempt to complete the budget according to
their original scheme, and what they meant to do fir the
relief of the agricultural classes.—( Loud cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it was hardly worth
while—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear")—to have delayed
the House from proceeding to the practical business of
the 'evening either for the sake of the information which
the Hon. Gentleman had conveyed to the House—(A
laugh)—or for the sake of making those inquiries he
had made. In the first place, the Hon. Gentleman in.

formed the House that when they went into Committee
of Supply they went, in all probability. for the purpose
of voting public money, and, as the First Lord of the
Admiralty had given notice of his intention to proceed
with the navy estimates, that information was hardly
required. In the next place, the Honourable Gentle-
man mentioned that the usual course was for Ministers
very early to bring forward the budget, state what taxes
they would remit, and afterwards proceed with supply.
That was not the usual course; very far from it. In
times of peace it was not a very expedient course; in
times of war it would be absurd and impracticable. The
Honourable Gentleman first had given information which
was superfluous, and known to all the world. Next he
had given information totally incorrect. He then wont
on to make certain comments on our proceedings with
respect to the finances fir the year. What the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer stated early in the session was
sufficiently plain. tic ateted, that having his estimate
of the receipts and exatuditure of the year, there ap-
peared a surplus of 1,500,000/—(.4 Hear, hear," from
Colonel Sibthorp, and laughter.) He proposed that a
portion of that surplus should be applied to the relief
of public burdens, and another portion to the diminution
of the debt incurred cf late years. Nothing could be
more plain than the policy which he-proposed to pursue.
It was a policy which, on the 15th of March, the Go-
vernment stated they were pursuing, and one of the
duties they proposed to remit, viz., a duty of
Excise which offered considerable hindrance to the
improvement of dwellings, had already been re-
mitted.—(Hear, hear.) Such being the general po-
licy of Ministers, he certainly would not accept the
invitation to go into details respecting their financial
measures, or to state now what course they proposed as
to any particular matter. But, as the Hoa. Gentleman
had invited them to this general consideration, and had
called attention to the policy of Ministers, he (Lord J.
Russell) could not help in tarn calliug the attention of
the House to the policy pursued by the lion. Mentter
for Buckiughamshire, because it was a policy which was
nut a little remarkable, and which appeared to be not a
little wavering and inconsistent. The Mu. Grntleinau,
as the public Isere informed by the journals of the day.,
propounded before the commencement of the session a
great plan of finance of his own—(Hear, hear)—which,
whether it were advisable to adopt or not, had one
very strong feature in it, and a feature which he thought
was very honourable to the Honourable Gentleman,
namely, that it was a proposition to maintain the credit
of the coutnry very high; to have a very considerable
surplus over expenditure for the purpose of a sinhiug
fond, for keeping the funds high, and enabling all per-
sons who bad need of borrowing to do so at a very low
rate indeed. The Honourable Gentleman's plan for the
purpose might not have agreed with that of those who
had taought, lunch on fiennec, but at least it had this
very creditable feature in it—that it was founded on the
basis that the revenue was far to exceed the expenditure
of the country.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Thea, on the
first night of the session the. House was told that the
great question was protection ; that the restoration of
protection to agriculture was the main object to be at-
tained, but that that was not the object of that particu-
lar night—the amendment on the Address did not
exactly contain that proposition. But no sooner was
the amendment to the Address negatived, th an they
were told by the Honourable Gentleman that it wee
quite clear the majority of the. House was against pro-
tection; that there was no need of talking of it again, or
of making any motion to restore it.—(Herr.) That
was entirely inconsistent with, what they had been told
on the first night of the session; but, further than that,
the Hon. Gentleman having in his position turned
Chancellor ef the Exchequer during the autumn, chose
to propound a great plan by which the revenue was to
be itetrees. d and kept very high above the expenditure;
and now, for the list mouth, they Lai seen that when-
ever anybody brought forward a motion—(Hear, hear)
—whether it were paper, whether it were marine in-
surances, or what not, however little it might elf ct the
agricultural interest, from whomever it might come,
whether from his Right Hon. Friend the Member for
Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), or any person who enter.
Weed those strong opinions on free trade, the lion.
Gentleman and his friends had been only eager to diminish
the revenue of the country below the expenditure. Why,
the Honourable Gentleman talked of the Government
plan of finance. They were not ashamed of the prtn-
ciple of their plan, which combined some relief to the
country with a steady maintaining of surplus over ex-
penditure. Bat a course of policy founded on the prin-
ciple of voting with any person who had an objection to
a particular tax, and who, hiving audio(' it, thought it
to be more objectionable than any other, and without
considering the general state of our finances to vote for
anything that would impair the credit of the country,
did seem to him, for a great party, he must say a most
singular and extraordinary course—(Cheers)—and not
either very wise or - very much calculatsd to raise
them generally in the opinion of the public.—(Renewed
cheering) And that too, as he had said, without
much regard as to what the tax might ba or the
purpose of the mover. Tne mover, perhaps, might he
one who said—" If I take away from you this tax, I
mean, at the same time, to diminish your expense:, be-
cause I intend to reduce your army or navy by 20.000
men, and thus to dress the balance and make your re-
ceipts still exceed your expenditure." But the Hon.
Gentleman, and those oho had voted with him, had no
excuse of that kind. It was contrary to their views to
make these great reductions in the expenditure, and
therefore they had exposed themselves to the chance of
being responsible for making a great inroad on our fi-
nances, and leaving them in that state in which the ceedit
of the country could not but be impaired both in our own
view and the view of all foreign countries.—(Chters.)
Well, some persona said that the notion was that if that
were done, then, the reroute of the country not sufficing
for the expenditure, the House of Commons would
find itself obliged to re-impose those taxes on pro-
tection—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and
counter cheers)—those taxes on the admission of
corn, on the admission of provisions, on the admission
of those various article of general consumption
which it had been the policy of different Governments
noel different Houses of Commons of late years to re-
duce; and, by the cheer which ho had heard—(Renewed
cheers, which drowned the end of the sentence.) Well,
really it seemed, he must say, a most wild-goose chase
to imagiee that because a certain number of gentlemen
bad voted with them for the reduction of the tax on
windows or paper, that they would thereby find them-
selves in a majority in favour of the restoration of pro-
tection, and that a majority would be found to restore
that which went to enhance the price of food in this
country.—(Deprecatory " No, nor from the Protection-
ists, and cheers from other quarters.) Ho must say that
a more visionary expectation never appeared to have
entered the mind of man.—(Renewed cheers.) Well, if
that were their great plan of finance—if the plan they
had openly revealed was that they would vote for the dimi-
nation and repeal of any tax with the hope that, taxes
once reduced, they might get a duty on the import of all
articles of consumption, and more especially corn, he must
say that a worse plan of finance, a plan based on more
shallow views, a plan which tended more to destroy the
credit of the country in the first place, and to disturb the
peace of the country iu the second place, never had been
conceived by a party which had number aed wealth and
station in that House.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman
had invited him to this discussion of his plan of finance
by the observations he had made upon the plan of the
Government. The Her. Gentleman, he was sorry to
see, had so utterly d -parted from that honourable notion
which he had entertained before Parliament mat, that
whatever they did they must keep up the credit of the
country and must have a large surplus over expenditure.
He thought, without insisting on his own particular
view, that if the Hon. Gentleman had remained firm to
that principle, however he and those who scent with
him would have maintained a high reputation in the
country, it would have been said, at Last, that their-
policy was honourable, and that it was a policy which
had been followed in the best times of the history of this
country. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to some-
thing that was supposed to have passed elsewhere. Well,
he (Lord J. Russell) had seen the reports of what paesed
41 elsewhere," and he saw that it was said that the peo-
ple had begun to ask not only what revision of salaries
and reduction of offices there should be, but whe-
ther it were possible any longer to pay the dividends of
the national debt. Ho doubted whether such questions
were really and seriously asked by any portion of the
people of this country.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
think it wise, at all events, that such notions should be
tot afloat, especially in high places.—(Cheers.) lie be-
lieved that no such notion would obtain any credence or
support amongst the people of England generally; and
he thought relent? -that it would be far better if Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, instead of abandoning ail their own
views in order to endeavour to get into a majority by
following in the train of
.his Right Hon. Friend the
Member for Manchester, would resort to their own po-
licy, and would state plainly to the House whether they
intended to adhere to protection or to abandon it, whe-
ther they kept it iu reterhe for some future occasion, or
whether, as in fact he believed was the case, though .
they did not venture to say it to the farmers of this
country, they utterly despaired of regaining a protective
duty. -- (An indignant "No," from the Protection
benches, and cheering otherwise.) If that were not so,
then let them have a direct motion upon the subject.
If they did mean to restore protection, why there was a
large part of the country that was crying out for it, and
saying. that as long as free trade lasted every interest
must be suffering.—(Hear hear.) If that were so—if
the country was really suffering under that infliction of
free trade—if that policy Which had been pursued since
1842 were utterly mistaken—if the people were really
going on the road to ruin in consequence of that policy.
he said that it was the duty of Owe wino held that be-
lief to bring the question fairly before Parliament. At
all events, he would say that he should not be afraid of
meeting that question; but that he and those who
thought with him would be ready to meet it at any mo-
mentse-(Cheers.) He held that at the present time,
while the revenue was sufficient to meet their expenses,
it showed, both by duties of Excise and many other
taxes, that there was no falling off in the consumption of
the great articles which paid duty in this country, and
that there were other circumstances and reports which
would show, mid which should be stated and produced
whenever that question should be brought forward, that
the great mass of the people of this country were now
in the enjoyment au groat comforts as they ever had '
possessed.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord J. MANNERS said, that the Noble Lord should
have thought the information of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Buckinghamshire superfluous he could
readily understand, for it must be unpleasant for the
Noble Lord to be reminded in that Assembly, pledged,
as it was, to the principle of free imports, that a great
and important interest in this couirry was still suffer-
ing.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, far from endeavour-
ing to explain the financial position of the country, bad
most ingeniously diverged from the real question at
issue, and given them an elaborate statement founded
partly on fact, but treuching also very metetially on the
agreeable and more reluctive ground tel tie-ion, as to a
proposition which had been made at some time or other
by his Hon. Friend the Aleniber-fa Buckinghamshire.

—(Hear, fault
(Hear, hear.) But when the Noble Lord found ,
with wha t he had truly termed the "great scheme
his Hon. Friend, he might be reminded that that ee.Ye
scheme had been mentioned with the highest eulogY,',
an
even plagatrized by the Right Honourable the (anal,
cellor of tt.to • Exchequer on the iutroduction at. re
budget.—(Gheers.) He was unwilling to protract In;
debate, bat lie had risen to protest against the injustt,
of several of the assertions of the Noble Lord. In tnd
first place, th.e Noble Lord said that they had follhwe
every genthen au who might have preposed some redna.
Lion of taxasioea irrespective of the justice of the claim t
and the expeuditure of the country, end the Noble Leta
had had—whtt should he call it?—the courage t° ettY
that his Hon. Fetend and the great bulk Of bia ",r,
porters had voted, with the Noble Lord the Member"'"
Bath (Lord Du ni :an) for the repeal of the window-duty.
The Noble Lor d was not correct in that statement, 'le)
he asked him nerveto retract it.—(Cries of " Nch
doe
The Noble Lord, .said, that they had voted for any riuet,o
rion that might be proposed without thinking nt
ed
maintenance of the credit of the country, and ins
tarse,am
the vote to whin they had come an hour ago. 1 a
of money implic taed in that vote was under 200,000 e
year, and, let La m ask the Noble Lord what wits theee
present availablit surplus which he proposed grant
by way of rel ief to some interest or otherra..
(Hear, hear.) Was it not a sum greatly ex_reekle
in;; that? . ) what ground then did the oh
Lord accuse el ectlemen on that (the Opposition)
side of the House of voting for a rethiction •ie
taxation without; the least regard to the maintecaucete:
the public credit ? Ile maintained that the party tie,
which he bad tb e honour to act had never given a ",
during the pre, tint session of Parliament witb"' -
direct reference to the maintenance of public creditC:t
(Hear, hear.) re' he wanted any justification 01
e
assertion he would find it in the concluding portion °. tu
Noble Lord's owe speech; for ho hid admitted that they
(the Proctectionie ts) were not without a policy
would supply the necessary funds for that popes,.
(dear.) Bat he .(Lord J. Manners) assured the 1-I°ll''
that the votes wl ti ch they had given in favour of there'
.a
duction of Lazo ion could be, and were fully ..111511
altogether irrest votive of that policy and without seY;
censideration wi tat regard to the re-imposition of "ttietie
the Noble Lord called " the taxes on the feed Of
people."—(Hear , hear.) When the Noble Lord t°°_,
the opportunity of aecusing them of acting in at headloSe
and improper ire inner, because they hut voted for tt!ee
repeal of nixes, i a favour of which nothing had bee°
and in favour of ,which nothing could be said-5'126n ;
Noble Lord took. the opportunity of making that iv,oll};-;
tionetgainst them in vindication of the policy which' t;"-;
(the Protectionia ts) impugned, and in defence ",t
budget which wee rapidly falling in pieces before tDara
eyes—(Hear, hea o—he would tell the Noble olfee
that if that wquesel,htii,smdienfehnicsehtalanedere:_ve(rce
hpeeerrsfe.)ctly
Colonel star: aORP thought that the Noble
to leave the
Lord at
the head of the Government had pursued a bad o°l
that evil tom nianicatioas had corrupted his o°o
manners." ?ever good his intentions /night MIL
been in his heart ; and good in his disposition, still h'y
had mistaken Lis. policy, although he was backed 119 Z
his Right Hone arable Relative. With respect I° L"-
surplus that had been talked sif, he believed that there
was no surplus t is all.—(Laughter.) If the Right. 'gene°.
Gentleman put a. -debtor and creditor account togete I
he would be as he (Colonel Sibthorp) had often 01
in that House. worse than nothing.—(Laughter.) Tbeteect
was a time when the Noble Lord opposite synolgteetnisse
with the nth:acute:l interest, end when the noble inlet
of Russell were farmers of respectability, and felt ,(1
the farmers. Thmt, however, seemed to be at an '-
flow. Ho (Colo :el Sibthorp) was of an economical turei';
tied he was told that he ought to be still more eh"uesliert
cal; but he vviish Id Honourable Members would sePP-ie
him in all the: its measures which he brought under I"
consideration.- —(flear, hear.) Dinner might be steleiris
cited amusement was a very good thing t"
gwoaoyd
tngtoo,.hie:nt Obese were other matters of more ill/Pla
Lance. He begged to ask the Noble Lord whether ire,
Deanery of Het eferd had been filled up, and if et wit
whom, and at what salary ? as
Lord T. RUSBELL replied that the appoin meat
not filled up.
Mr. HU 'PE observed that a novel scene lead 'B"ken
„ea
place that estenie g, which he had witnessed with
atteetion. • Thera was crimination and reorirninat'' ',
bet he, was fortunately in a condition to blame bc'telire
(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Buckingbatusto
called on her Mt jesty's Government, very peeperVi
S.#
give relief to the agricultural intereet,—(Hear, '.
00
rout the Opposition.). lie (Mr. Hume) had presteuo,
the Government the propriety of giving relief to all Ite
te'ests, and ho had proposed the nonest and legitiT3vie.
mode of reducing expenditure, in order to obtain a °tee,
plae. Hon. Gentlemen opposite complained that n
Government e' had not a policy, but he complained "e
jt,
they heel, and seemed determined to abide bi eet
namely, that no further reduction in expenditure Ao'o
take place. It was impossible, therefore, that theY'lby
have a surplus; but who was to blame for that? ee
lion. Gentlemen opposite. They came to the rest 0
when the Government was in clifficultiest.—(" ilefitit
from the Opposition beaches.) But he maintained
free.
they had done it. Every Committee who had hpfplfr a
int, the subject had laid it down that the bast alief
only way to obtain rdief was by the reduction
our establishments. He had complained of the Gh/ess;
silent to king five or six millions from the pockets of "
I to
people for the army and navy, and made an aPP°II eel
the House for a reduction of the number of weir`sa;
ployerl; and what was t'-e consequence? Honourw—a,.
Gentleman opposite joined the Noble Lord, and he ("'0";
Hume) was left in a miserable minority of some 40
50. If they wanted relief; they should take those 110%1
by which relief could be obtained, and do as they wOen-s
in their own establishments—reduce their expend;t,"
when it balanced their interne, The Chancellor Of tet.
s.;xchequur said that he had no money to give 'Oaf, w-et
Honourable Gentlemen might give" him money for thfo
purpose by reducing the national establishments. 6,°_, be
both sides had been quarrelling about nothing,
thought they were both to blame. When our esti-11'; et
ments were reduced, and a surplus was obtained, it nut.
be applied towards the relief of the most deserving ter
ties. Above al', however, he begged the House th taibe
Sider, that as this was a commercial country, and ° he
welfare of the agriculturists themselves depended 012;b10
prosperous condition of commerce, it was most Mir
to remove every fiscal restriction on commerce at h tee
and abroad, and everything that tended to injure
health and comfort of the mass of the population. of
The House then resolved itself into Committee'
Supply.
Ve Sir F. BARING said that at that late hour (go
minutes to twelve o'clock) ho could not propose We to
on with the navy estimates, and therefore he beggew
move that the Chairman report progress. bet
Mr. DISRAELI begged to remind the Hon. Mee'
fur Montrose, who had made a very interesting sPeeop!
that it was quite beside the question raised on the
,i for
position side of the Horne. They had only askethoed
300,000/, which was at present unappropriated, re,
which they thought might as well be applied to she
lief of the agricultural interest. err
The House resumed, and the Chairman reported r

gress.
In answer to questions put by different 'Jonal.o
Me nbc'rs.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that on Monclsl,.„,e.
Right kleo. Friend the Chancellor of the Exuhe's:od
would make a statement respecting savings banks, ;jot
ask for leave to bring in a Bill on tho subject, and
afterwards the Government would take she second rll'ti-or
ing of the Eeele,siastical Commission Bill. The
estimates could no!: be taken before Monday week. 01
The Fees (Court of Common Pleas) Bill went thr°tY
Committee.
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, the Select Cul;
mittee on Sir Thomas Turton was nominated as foll7o
—Mr. Roebuck, Marquis of Douro, Viscount Joce,r/is:
Mr.
Mr. Armstrong, Mr. Elliot, Mr. Hustie M DO
Sir J. Hogg. b
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL obtained leave to
rinv
in a Bill.to amend an Act of the last session of
ment, for granting relief against defects in leases '-
under powers of leasing.
The House then, at Twelve o'clock, adjourned.
.ort
EXTRAORDINARY BIRTIIS.—On the 19th )11"t -g
Margaret Nutter, of Salford, Burnley, was delivered of thafir
full-grown children, two of whom are at present ativeooo
healthy, and with the mother are doing well. 111„%. ins
female has had twins at two previous births, thus 1110"„ tis
all seven children within the last two years and nine TheP•oe,,
—On the 11th inst., the wife of Mr. B. Harrison, lioo,
schoolmaster, Grimsby, of a daughter, who has two 14i fav
fathers, two grandmothers,_two great-grandfathers, An
great-grandmothers! p 140 fr
[ADVERTISEMENT.]-Wonderful Efficacy o• 41,100
loway's Ointment and Pills.—Nine months since a geni;oifl
residing in Glaslough, county of Monaghan, had an
made from the hip to the knee, and a great deal uf,7,- sl'
flesh removed. For three years he suffered night ane,,u3„"b'ifi:
though he consulted all the most skilful surgeons 00" [tiros;
clans Ise could hear of, using baths, liniments, &c.s %%go. o`,
effect. He expected to in a cripple for life, yet, by the use.
Holloway's Ointment and Pills, he is now cured, and °nib la
to attend to business for the last six months, as though 13-f dis
had happened. His address is known to the, proprieter2foor
Armagh Guardian. Sold by all druggists, and at
Holloway's Establishment, 244, ..trand,

CIO
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GEIT
la6o,

The 1
CUrr

The 3
sOCiety,
13t,

2cl, Ti

....... .--........*.........--
131RT17,Y, SIS.
On the 23d inst., at the residence of the Dowager
countess Torrington, the Hon. Mrs. Hall, of a dauglited'eote
On the I.,th inst., in Grosvenor-square, the lady of
B. Collier, Esq., of a daughter.
On the 23d inst., at Wargrave, the lady of the rev,
R. Flint, of a daughter.
,:. lo:/1,.(If,
On the 21c1 inst., at Bursledon. Southampton, the
W. C. Humphrys, Esq., o' a daughter. g Wilrfell
On the 23d inst., at Winchester, the wife of
Esq., Lieutenant, RN., of a son.
On the 24th inst., in Chester-square, the WY of
_—/

Goddard. Esq., M.P:, of a daughter:
---%•"'"..---
NARRIED. COP.(
On the 25th inst., at St. George's, Hanover-scluare'tti °
fain Ottavio Giuseppe, son of Signor Ottavio 138retoftb°
Piverone (Ivrea), to . Mary Susan, youngest deughte'ire. -
late B. Clarke, Esq., of Welton. place. Northamptonsbna 00a
At St. Pancras, on the 25th inst., David Shaw'. sec° GJOS
of the late James Barbour, Esq., of Dunn-mir-haese' iste j.
Dangles, N. 8., to Eliza, youngest daughter of the
Jackson, Esq , of Ulvcrstone.
..-------------t
DIED. , oober
On the 23d inst., in Jermyn-street, St. James's, ,
Wright, Esq., aged 85.
0 rOi
dag thee , Es2ql.d,
o finst.,ic.e nattisJheftsoeyw,nJ, an
gmeeds eldest James,
cis?s'tirethete,
On the 22N:33eddwi inst.,iiinsr.t 0
ant, Mary,ttulrrteehyr ei
agedwhoi f3oet f,%lifil
r. r.l :g
be: oe p:
re' ,1::
a::
ii
),;,fte: :::f.
0
wife of Major Chalmer T Gale,
On the 25th most , Mary Ann, the wife of flr. • ~
Stock7w
Newgate-stmet, aged L 2. eg
ExC.:lenliatuhie:sth inst., at Walnut-tree-wilk,Lembeth'he
Charles Nairne, Esq., for many years a member of t" ,
, _---01
----- .----_—
____-6-00,,i
r,..;ndon: Printed and Published by ramion„l" iikT, I'd
No. 112, :Strand, Printer, at The Suet 0302* cooti
;'4,tand, in. the, Prminct cf tho S=..roy, in the
.Dl'dditwor, Saturday, April 27, 1850.

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