The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

State.---(Hear, hear.) There were some who supposel
that they would have religious peace if they had no esta-
blishment. He must say that he did not concur in that
opinion. He bad seen a recent occasion, in which the
cause of dispute was not between the Established Church
and those who dissented from it, but between certain par-
ties who were opposed to that Church. There was, then,
an opportunity of seeing whether or not the existence
of an establishment was the sole cause of animosity and
ill-will; and without wishing to utter a word which was
disrespectful to those who dissented from the Established
Church, :judging from the interviews he had had,
and the letters he had received, he must say that he had
seen greater instances of religious animosity and
jealousy among different classes of Dissenters—(Cheers)
—than he had ever seen between Dissenters and the
Church.—(Hear, hear.) He had thought it probable
that having long been engaged in opposing the Church,
they would not display much hostility towards
each other; but his expectations had nut been
realised; and he believed the removal of the
Establishment, therefore, would not be a guarantee
of peace. Now, if that were conceded, the question was
—What form of faith should be incorporated with the
State in Ireland ? The public policy of this country
would give a preference to a Protestant Establishment.
There was a Protestant Establishment in other parts
of the empire. The religion of the Sovereign, and
the general course of constitutional law seemed to be
decisive of the selection of the Protectant religion.
Was he at liberty even to select another when they were
told by the professors of the Roman Catholic faith
that they preferred total spiritual independence
to union with the State, upon tha condition
that their independence would be fettered.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not think they could have an Established
Church connected with the State, and in possession of
all the emoluments of the State, without being subject
to stringent laws, and to the influence of the Crown
over its affairs. He would be sorry to see perfect inde-
pendence on the part. of the Church; he thought it of
great importance that the spiritual authority of the
Church should be restrained, as it was now restrained,
and that it should be made subordinate to Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) But the Roman Catholics told them dis-
tinctly that they were not prepared to admit
the exercise of any such control; and therefore the
terms offered by the two parties were not equal. They
would not allow the nomination-of their prelates by the
Pope—they claimed for themselves the right of regu-
lating all their spiritual affairs by their own authority.
Under these circumstances, it did appear to him that to
propose to abolish the revenues of a Church,-which had
existed for 250 years, was altogether unreasonable.—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord contended for civil
equality. Did he mean that the Catholics should be re-
presented in the House of Lords, or did he wish to ex-
elude Protestant Bishops ? Were the churches which
had been built by Protestants from their own contribu-
tions to be given up to the Catholics ? It appeared to
him that the principle of religious equality, which sounded
so specious, would lead to a total alteration of the ecclesias-
tical policy of this country ; and he thought there
was the greatest danger of such principles re-acting
upon this country. They could not expect much
satisfaction from a trifling alteration. When the present
Lord Spencer brought in a Bill for the extinction of ten
bishoprics of the Protestant Church, the measure was
hailed by Mr. O'Connell and the Catholic body with
delight. One Hon. Member, in the course of the night,
said it made no difference to the Roman Catholics what
appropriations or reforms were made in the Irish
Church, if there was not some privation of emolument.
But the measure of Lord Althorp was admitted by those
who entertained the same opinions as Hon. Gentlemen
who sat on the Opposition benches, as a most useful
reform. Ten years had only passed away, and although
reform had been extended, and although the revenue of
the Church had been curtailed, yet now, in 1844,
language still stronger was held with respect
to the Protestant Church, and it was denounced as
an injury and an insult.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Even suppose they were to go into Committee, what
good could they hope to effect? He was not prepared
to go one-tenth of the way with the Hon. Gentleman;
but he really could not sea if the Committee were
granted, how they could possibly arrive at a satisfactory
result. At the same time he was perfectly willing to
admit that every reform compatable with the main-
tenance of the integrity of the Church ought to be in-
troduced—(Hear, liear)—that those pluralities which
now existed ought to be extinguished, where they could
be extinguished with a due regard to the maintenance
of the Minister; also where there were non-residents the
evil should be remedied. Although unwilling to
enter into the Committee, he would not say that
the present state of the Church was perfect.—(Hear.)
He would say that he was not willing that greater
equalisation of the revenues of that Church should take
place, and give greater emoluments to the working
clergy. He would not, on these accounts alone, refuse
to enter into a Committee ; but he saw that it was
not a question of revenue—of any alteration in the pecu-
niary amount of the revenue—or, that any deduction:of
the sum of 50,0001. or 100,000/. from the emolument of
that Church should be made ; but he stood upon ;he
pledged faith of Parliament, and would continue to stand
upon it, unless convinced by some overwhelming politi-
cal necessity which would compel him to depart from them.
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition
benches.) He was not convinced that there was that
overwhelming necessity. Ile believed the Church sas
more secure in its present position, opposed as I it
was to a formidable hostility, by retaining the whole
amount of property, than by making any partial On-
cession in respect to pecuniary amount. Believing that
it was for the interests of religion that that Fstablioi-
ment should be maintained, although he was willing that
it should be improved in the details of its constitution,

.
yet after the avowal of the Hon. Gentleman opposite,
who contemplated the total subversion of that Church,
he could not consent to raise the delusive hope thati he
knew would be raised if the proposition to go into Clm-
mittee on the subject were acceded to.—(Cheers.) I
Lord J. RUSSELL explained.—The Right lon.
Baronet misunderstood him ; he did not by any mejans
infer that, under any regulations, the Catholic Chtirch
should be placed in a position of supremacy.
Mr. SHEIL commenced by saying that he wished !the
Right Hon. Gentleman had spoken at a later periol of
the debate, that he might not be placed in the somewhat
presumptions position of replying to him ; but the slub-
ject was one so intimately connected with the stat'e of
Ireland that he might be excused for trespassing onjthe
indulgence of the House.—(Hear, hear.) There I did
not seem much coincidence of opinion betweenthe
Members of the Government on this subject. Ilord
Eliot commenced his speech by expressing himiself
favourable to an endowment of the Catholic cle gy.
The Home Secretary differed from the Noble Lord, nd
the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Gov rn-
it
ment did not say a syllable on the subject. The N ble
Lord the Member for South Lancashire proposed that
400,0001. a year should be granted by Parliarfent
to pay the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireld.
But if the Secretary for Ireland, he who had Ireland
under his control—if the Government were prepared to
endow the Catholic Church—he would ask, what course
did they intend to take with respect to Maynoqth ?
They were told that the Catholic clergy would not I ac-
cept the endowment, and surely they were not skiffi-
ciently disingenuous as to offer that which they knew
would not be taken, and withhold that which would be
accepted.—(Cheers.) '1 he endowment of the Catholic
clergy was liable to a great objection, but an increased
grant to Maynooth would not be liable to any. No !new
precedent was involved—they were building on a fioun-
dation which was already deeply deposited. They! felt
the necessity of that increase, and they ought either to
sweep it away altogether or to make it what it ought to
be; and yet they were tendering an endowment to a
clergy who would not accept the slightest boon
from them:—(Hear, hear.) But then they pissed
over in silence—a silence which was most 1 ex-
pressive, indeed—that which the Catholic clergy
were willing to accept. They did not seem to care whe-
ther an endowment was consistent with the principles of
the British Legislation. If they were to endow the Ca-
tholic clergy, did they think that the people of this coun-
try would consent to having both the Churches kept up ?
did they think the people of England would consent to
have the support of the Catholic Church defrayed from
the Consolidated Fund ? There was a fund in Ireland
applicable to the Church of Ireland, and to ether reli-
gious purposes. The moment they endowed the Catholic
Church they incorporated it with the State, and a portion
of the revenues of the Protestant Church must be made
applicable to the support of the Catholic Church. If they
endowed the Catholic Church they must be prepared for
a large reduction in the resources of the Protestant
Church, for, suppose that they were to propose that the
Irish landlord should be taxed for its support, would he
not say, " What, am I to be taxed for the support of
both Churches ?—(Hear, hear)—you first impose tithes
on me, and increase the poor-rates, and after all you tax
me to support an idolatrous Church !"—(Hear, hear.)
He thought that the Right Honourable Baronet would
be only involving himself in. great difficulty, by as-
senting to the endowment—the hypothetical endowment,
of the Catholic Church. The Right Hen. Gentleman
conceived that it was contrary to the Act of Union to
diminish the revenues of the Established Church. It
had already been said by the Noble Lord, the Member
for London, that the protestations of the Right Hon.
Baronet were at variance wite his practice. If it were
contrary to the2Act of Union, how could the Right Hon.
Raronet consent to the abolition of Church-rates in Ire-
land ? How could he consent to confiscate one quarter
of the tithes of Ireland ?—(Cheers.) Sir Henry Har-
dinge—but he begged pardon of the Right Hon. Baro-
net, he was not a Member of that Administration ; nei-
ther he nor the Noble Lord were Members of that
Administration—but Sir Henry Hardinge brought in
that Bill, and the present Prime Minister supported it,
and now the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Gentle-
man were in conjunction with those by whom the pro-
position was received.

Lord STANLEY—I supported it then.
Mr. SIIEIL continued—One quarter of the tithes—
twenty-five per cent —were subtracted from the Church,
and not for the purposes of religion—no, it was de-
posited in the coffers of the Irish landlords. Was that
the case ? Everybody knew that twenty-five per cent.
was given to the landlords. This was confiscation. -
Mr. SHAW—It was an allowance, in consideration of
the tithes being paid by the landlords.
Mr. SHEIL—The Might Hon. Gentleman called it al-
lowance ; he (Mr. Sheil) called it confiscation. Out of
every 1001. that were paid for tithes, the person only re-
ceived 751. now.
Mr. SHA W—That is not case.

Mr. SHEIL did not think he had been guilty of mis-
representation; but, however, " By any other name 'twill
--(Laughter)—smell as sweet" to the landlord and as
offensively to the parson. There was only one part of
the speech of the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary for
the Home Department which he had heard with pain__
pain on account of the Right Hon. Baronet himself.
He said that if the Church property was touched, the
whole property of Ireland might be set at nought.
Was he hot falling into the error for which he eon-
cleatued the non. Member for ;Slarylebone ? The gig-