The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 6, 1844.

tro24 Lora i MiNTo and
HADDINGTON, in explanation,
The Duke Of RICHMOND said that in order to put.
an end to the discussion, and, for the satisfaction
of both sides of the House, he would take the oppoy-
tunity of presenting a petition from MorpPth against
the bastardy clauses in the Poor-law Amendthent Act.
The petitioners stated, that out of 476 births in the
Union,. 49 were illegitimate children; and that, of the
births in the townofMorpeth, one in six were illegitimate.
BETTING ON PUBLIC SPORTS.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill being read,
Lord BROUGHAM wished to put it .to his .Noble
Friend who had just sat down, whether, instead of
the Bill of which he had given notice, to legalise
betting upon certain sorts of public sports, to which
there was a great objection in certain quarters, it would
not be better to postpone for a time his prospective
measure, and in the meanwhile to bring forward a short
Bill to the qui tam actions which were pending
The Bishop of LONDON said that he could not allow
the occasion to pass without expressing his diSapproba-
tion of any measure which would go to legalise gamb-

ling.
The Dulie of RICHMOND said, he had a right to
complain of the Right Rev. Prelate assuming that his
Bill was intended to promote gambling ; on the con-
trary, he firmly believed that if the Bill
was carried into • a law it would diminish
betting. He was not a better himself,- but he
was convinced that if something was.not done the pre-
sent system would ruin the " Turf" altogether. His
only object was to compel the fair loser to pay the fair
winner. He wished to encourage the manly amuse-
ments of the people, which had been of late
too much discouraged. He had rather see
the people enjoy the manly sport of cricket, than sit in
sullen sottishness in a beer-shop. He would not place
himself in oposition to the Noble and. Learned Lord
opposite (Lord Brougham) on a subject of law,
and he would therefore postpone the general Bill,
and bring in one for stopping the qui tum
actions and defeating the objects of those "scoundrels,"
who, because last year their own practices were dis-
covered, had raked up Acts of Parliament, of which
oddish constructions had been made.—(lt ear.)
Lord B iI.OUGHAM thought it would be well to refer
the whole of the laws relating to batting to a Se:ect
Committee.
The Bishop of LONDON had not attributed to the
Noble Duke any wish to increase the evil of gambling.
He thought, however, that the tendency of
the Noble Duke's measure would be to in-
crease that evil. He had always ished to
co-operate with the Noble Duke in his efforts
to promote the happiness. the morals, and the indepen-
dence of the people. He agreed with the Noble Duke
respecting the expediency, the policy—and he would
say, the duty—of promoting the manly recreations of the
poor. Whenever these reer ,ations were placed and r
restraint, nothing but paramount necessity could justify
the restriction.
Lord CAMPBELL said that he honel their Lord-
ships would not sanction the Bill of the Noble Duke.
which weirld have the effect oe encouraging gambling
and making all kinds of bets recoverable in Courts of Law.
Lord DENMAN thought the Noble Duke had a right
to complain that when he had agreed to postpone his
Nob'e Lords thought proeer to enter into a dis-
cussien on it. He (Lord Denman) thought that the
whole Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee.
The Mike of RICHMOND said that the gamblers
against which he meant to legislate had no characters to
lose, and cared not what risk they incurred. He entirely
agreed with his Noble Friend the Lord Chief Justice,
and therefore suggested that the order of. the day for
the second reading of the Bill be referred to a Select
Committee. A hundred thousand pounds might be bet
upon a horse in London, if the better could learn
intelligence of the winning horse by a carrier
pigeon or by any other means ; and what was
more that bet could be legally recovered as was
lately decided. That debt was recoverable at common
law, but if the money was bet fairly at the race it could
not be recovered ; if they bet at a race at which no-
money had been contended for, then the bet was reco-
verable. In fact, the present law was full of
absurdities, and was very well worthy of the attention
of their Lordships. The Noble Duke concluded by
moving the discharge of the order of the day.—Agreed to.
The Duke of RICHMOND said he would, to-morrow,
in all probability, bring in a Bill on the subject himself.
It was then ordered that the laws relating to.gaming
be referred to a Select Committee of their. Lordships.
HEALTH OF TOWNS BILLS.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he had a question
of some importance to put, which he hoped some
member of the Government would be in a position to
answer. It was on a subject entirely distinct from that
which had just occupied their Lordships' attention, but,
one which he was sure they would all concur in con-
sidering of vastly greater importance. When he stated
to their Lordships that his question had reference not
only to the cleanliness and comfort, but to the morals of
the poor, he was sure none of them would for a moment
underrate its importance. The question was in reference
to some measures which had passed their Lordships'
House no less than three tutees, and he could not but say
that it was with feelings of grievous disappointment he
now again called their Lordships' attention to them.
Some considerable time back—in the year 1839—a
Right Rev. Prelate, whom he did not then see in his
place, made a motion on the subject of the state of
the dwellings of the poor, especially in large towns,
and in consequence of this motion a Commission was
appointed by the Secretary for the Home Department,
to further investigate and report upon the subject. In the
following year, in consequence of the information for-
warded to the Government, the Secretary of State for
the Home Departruktt extended its powers and func-
tions to Scotland. Such a case for interference was
almost immediately made out, as the result of the labours
of'the Commission, that he (Lord Normanby ) at once
brought the question before his colleagues, and, in 1841,
he also brought the subject before their' Lordships-, and
introduced Bills, with a view to commence remedial
measures as quickly as possible. To the principle of
those Bills, their Lordsh;ps assented' unanimously ; but
in order to make the details of them as perfect as pos-
sible, it was suggesteethat they shOuld he referred to a
Select Committee up stairs. Never did a Committee
work with greater assi .uity or success. The Bil's passed
through V.eir Lordships' I louse, but in consequence of
the session becoming short, they did not pass through
the House of Commons. Next session they were again
submitted to their Lordships, and again passed. The
session of 1842 concluded, anti upon it came a Circum-
stance which gave a very particular consideration-to the
subject. The Poor-law Commissioners took the matter
in hand, and, after due investigation, made a Report upon
the subject, and a most important Report indeed it was.
That Report might perhaps be an accumulation of facts
that were not palatable to the general reader. But it
showed that no less than 56,000 persons died annually
of diseases which it was in the power of the'Legislature
to prevent or remove. This was the same as if the
whole population of Huntingdonshire or Rutlandshire
was annually swept away by disesse, which the Govern-
ment m'ght prevent. More information on this subject
was certainly not what the Government required—of
information they had enough. The suggestions of the
Report might or might not have been adopted, but ad-
ditional information was not required ; even if it had
been, the Commission ought to have been appointed at
once ; but from the time the Report was made till the
present session of Parliament, not one step had been
taken. If he should now hear that it was not
likely a measure would be introduced on this subject, he
should feel it his duty again to call on their Lordships
to affirm the principle which he had already been fortunate
enough three times to receive their approbation. Whe-
ther or not a Bill were brought in this session, he could
not exempt that department. of the _Government with
which this measure rested from some blame for not hav-
ing taken up the former Bill, and amended it, if re-
quired amendment, or, if further inquiry were neces-
sary, for not having caused that inquiry to be made.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said the Noble Marquis
had found fault with her Majesty's Ministers for not
having taken up this subject in the former session of
Parliament. But the fact was, this measure was drawn
up when the Report was not completed. In 1841,
when the Report was presented, the Bill for the
improvement of the town of Leeds was introduced.
The Commission met on 3d of June, and sat three days
a week until the end of July ; up to this time there had
been no delay. The Commission bad laboured even
during the recess, and visited fifty-one towns. The
Noble Lord seemed to think that the report made by the
Commission could be legislated upon immediately. No
person who retd that report could doubt of the misery
and wretchedness which existed in several towns, and
even in the metropolis itself—a condition truly dis-
graceful to this country. Disease was of a very de-
structive character and' very prevalent. No person pos-
sessed of the commonest feelings of humanity but would-
exclaim against these things remaining as they were.
But it was a very different thing to legislate on
the subject—to introduce an effectual remedy. The
Commissioners found more difficulty than. was
generally imagined. In suggesting a proper mode for.,
curing these evils, a new system of drainage was the
principal thing ; but could this be effected for nothing.
Let them look to the metropolis itselE Those who had
not heard the evidence laid before the Commission by
scientific men, could have no idea of the extreme diffi-
culty of carrying out a regular systematic drainage in
the metropolis under the existing state of things. Some
regard should be paid to another point, the supply of
ater, without which the drains would be choked up
and rendered useless. Now, the supply of water in
London, as the Commissioners would wish it to be sup-
plied, was a most difficult thing. They had to
contend with vast anti complicated interests--large
companies—and it Has really hard to think hoc
they could be compensated; but with all the in-
formation contained in the R port, and with all the
curious papers that had been laid before the Commis-
mis-ion, he was not prepared to lay before the House
any measure for their Lordships' et nsideration. If the
Bill is et .Im/tended to their Lordships were carried into
effect, the serve) ors' , fees alone would amount to
80,000/. Any Bill that could be introduced would be-
come a dead letter, frOm.the diffictqty of, carrying it into
effect. The Commission had everywhere been received
in the most fasourable meaner by the working classes
and by the municipal authorities: Mott curious infor-
mation had been laid bef re the Committee regarding
the drainage and supplying of water to towns on the
Con'inent and in America. but he repeated that he was
not at present prepared to offer any recommendation on
the course which should be pursued.
The Marquis of NORMANBY never heard a more
unsatisfactory explanation than that offered by the
Noble Duke ; he considered that the Government were
greatly to blame in allowing these evils to continue so
long without proposing some remedy.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH explained. • •
Lord FITZWILLIAM was understood to say that he,
considered it very difficult to legislate on the subject.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The Duke of WELLINGTON, seeing the Noble
it aft (Fitzwilliam) in his place, rose to inform him that
w„.
niotrn not his intention to offer any opposition to the
.1-" n of the Noble Earl relative to certain accounts
IL returns respecting the military and police in Ireland.
%),,,,,3tated this in the hope that the Noble Earl might
eland to forbear all reference to recent events in
agEarl FITZWILLIAM said he had no inclination
ateVer to break the understanding which prevailed
No to the
expediency of abstaining from all allusion
--alio at present. He was glad to hear that the
birle Duke and her Majesty's Ministers did not intend
taa?,."er any opposition to the motion he was about to
ae—e• His Lordship then moved for the production of
etountsLaccording to notice.—Agreed to.
dek(lrd, X9RMANBY, from the same wish not to in-
der- 1111 anY remarks on events now pending in Ireland,
lair"' his motion on the state of Ireland till Tuesday,
Ivo inst Between the present time and that day,
.he
old announce to the House the precise shape in which
tiel Meant to make his motion. If it was probable that
trials
would not terminate by that day, he would
wive due notice of further postponement.
brh OPERATIONS IN CHINA.
e LORD CHANCELLOR communicated to the
11,11se that he had received a letter from Admiral
fotrler, acknowledging the vote of thanks of the House
tan.e"te.gallant conduct of her Majesty's naval force en-
thain the operations in China. His Lordship, then
ehi the letter, which was dated from her Majesty's.
Cornwallis. Hong-Kong, June 15, 1843.
-Gar
0114 I /UNTO expressed some degree of disappointment
bad B°lne further mark of her Majesty's approbation
p
statjl°t been conferred upon Admiral Parker. He
mtaat some feeling of dissatisfaction existed in the
nitv"itaat a baronetage had not been d uon e
at:"nanaander as had been done bestowe
in the caseof the
3'. ,
Th
%tab,: 'Art of HADDINGTON believed that it was
(W to their Lordships at the time the Noble Duke
) made the speech which never could be
f:do-ttiZt
by the navy, when the thanks of that House
had to the naval and military commanders who
Wards in China, that the reason why the two re-
at were not bestowed on Sir William. Parker
Gouge same same time, that they were on Sir Hugh
be gry• was, that it would have appeared to
meat 111,1 g more to one than the other. The Govern-
tisuatt no anxiety but to deal fairly by both parties,
rediunath,.at
„'e Noble Lord could well say that her Majesty's
a„°o—rntrient duly appreciated the services of the navy
y. He
They were certainly most extra-
He did not advert merely to the gallantry
; that was a matter of course, for the navy
etwini:requently gone against more formidable
that t than the Chinese. But he knew
cunsirinF the large ships to the walls of Nankin was
Fora, nrqu• by the navy as a very extraordinary per-
It would be in the recollection of the
eresse that Sir Hugh Gough had earned the Grand
IC'll°l inas; ef
thel Beead.th before Sir William Parker arrived in
their • At the conclus'on of their joint services, for
bar ?tent, distinguished, and meritorious conduct,
Grolcr pr was awarded to Sir Huth Gough. and.
Parke 'r°ss of the Bath was given to Sir ti% illiam
,ett.sorir. Sir William Parker had since been informed the
at the
awbY both rewards were not conferred upon him
that s.aille tale.
Parker
illiam
He (the Earl of Haddington) trusted
Parker was satisfied. Sir William
~lar had also been informed of the intention of her
114:testy's Government to bestow upon him the other
It would be in the recolleetion of their Lord-
s3BlulLlP.4'urt:littt at the time of the former discussion en this
Dlalty,
Gvko- aysersnantntthatto.
citonvtrearsupthoen intention of
,her,
Sir Willi .m Par-
". the farther honour ; Aye" said the Noble Earl
Par-
on that occ •
Lord m 91°o, " when he hauls d..vin his flag."
ing INTO said that he did not recollect ever hay-
hot ‘_loct
_the language attributed to him ; but he would
op)orsie.his recollection against that of the Noble Earl
jet,t_t,ent7tiloHnA-of.DthDeINGTON said that it had alwaysbeen the
cti,tc.t., their veryGhoigehrnssmierne:s,n;titollok. mark, in every way they
the great
however,
which
llat.neen performed.
eZs.,ol.great a share in the achmiemvemenetsr, :ieverdhina
orectlig navalr Hugh G,,0 h, who had conducted nut
th! ene perations, ugh,
those of the army, into
V ry
Lord Of Chna.
that it
.:utTGIIAM begged to interpose. He thought
in-etr . "as Most unconstitutional for Noble Lords to
klil't4eijare
()tip the prerogative of her Majesty
.as the
Q°l2olll%—(Cheers.)

Tie Coppnittee, for inquiring into the laws on gaming
was then. appointed. - -
The Duke of RICHMOND gave notice that he should
to-morrow move for the copy of a letter from the As-
sistant:Secretary of-the Treasury to the clerks of the
peace,. acid dated Dec. 2, 1843, his object being to induce.
the Governtnene of the country to with4raw it.
Lord MONTEAWLE gave notice that he should to-
morrow Move Tor certain returns from the Bank of Eng-
land. His Lordship also gave notice that he should at
the same time put a question to the Government with a
view of ascertaining if it was their intention to take any
measures in respect to the Bank of Ireland at the time
they proposed those measures having reference to the
Bank of England. His Lordship laid on the table of
the House a Bill to facilitate the recovering of sums of
money by certain teachers in Ireland, which had passed
their Lordships' House last session, but hid dropped in
the other House in consequence of the late period it ar-.
rived there, and the heavy pressure of other business of
greater importance.
The House then, at Five Minutes after Six, adjourned
until to morrow.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 5.
The SPEAX,NR took the Chair at Four o'Clock.
PRIVATE BILLS.
On the motion of Mr. STRUTT, the following Mem-
bers were appointed as a Select Committee-on Petitions
for Private Bills, viz. :—Mr. Strutt, Mi. Robert Clive,
Mr. Rice, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Mr. Wrightson, Mr.
George Cavendish, Mr. Crompton, Mr. Brotherton, Mr.
Pakington, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Beckett, Sir John Yarde
Buller, Mr. Brampton, Mr. Richard Walker, Mr.
George Philips, Mr. Bell, Mr. Gibson Craig. O'Conor
Don, Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Mr. Hmman, Mr. Eliott
Yorke, Mr. Kemble, Mr. Aglionhy, Captain Jones, Mr.
Thornely, Mr. Barneby, Mr. Benjamin Wood, Mr.'
Tatterton Egerton, Mr. Stansfield, Lord Worsley,
Henry Baillie, Mr. Edward Buller, Sir William Heath:
cote, Henry
Hope Johnstone, Mr. Morgan John O'Connell,
Mr. Packe, Mr. Acland, Mr. Evans, Mr.. 1-tome Drum-
mond, Mr. Parker, Mr. Marshall, and Mr. E. P. Shirley..

Mr. S.. CRAWFORD gave notice that he should to-
morrow make the motion on •the subject of the redress
of grievances, of,Which he had previously given notice.
THE CENSUS.
Capt. PECHELL wished to know from the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department,
when it might he expected that the Report of the Census
Commissioners would be laid upon the table ? •• •
Sir JAMES GRAHAM was most anxious that the
Report should_ be .laid before the House as soon as
possible, and it would be his duty, as soon as that should
be done, to see that the Report be referred to a Select
Committee. At the same time he was afraid that the Re-
port could net be laid upon the table before the recess.
METROPOLIS IMPROVEMENT BILL.
On the Order of the Pay being read for the second
reading "of the Metropolis Improvement Bill,
iiugE desired
.to know what was the principle
of the Bill. It was unusual to move the second reading
of a Bill Without the House havfrig been informed of its
principle. He had certainly seen the Bill in the ante:
room; but he had had no opportunity of making himself
acquainted with its provisions. This might be a Bill
for authorising the expenditure of money, and he 'wished
to be informed of the principle of the Bill.
Lord LINCOLN said that an Act. had been passed
some time • since for improving the metropolis. Some
doubts had arisen as to the construction of the Act, and
the present Bill was intended merely to remove those
doubts, and to carry out the provisions of the former
•
measure.

Mr. HUIVIE would not oppose the second reading of
the Bill if the intention of it was merely to carry out
the provlsions of the former Act.
The Bill was then read a second time.

TRAFALGAR-SQUARE.
Captain BERNAL begged to ask the Noble Lord, the
Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, whether the
statue of 'Nelson, in Trafalgar-square, was erected under
the sanction of the Woods and Forests ?

The Earl of LINCON said that that part of the.
imprOvements was made by a committee, by means of
subscriptions. The works which are now going on in
Trafalgar-square, are under the direction of the office of
Woods and Forests.

STANDING ORDERS ON RAILWAYS.-
Mr. W. GLADSTONE rose to move ;----,,That a
Select Committee be appointed, to consider the
Standing Orders relating to Railways. and,• whether
any and what changes ought to be - - made
in those Standing Orders ; and likewise to con-
sider whether any and what new provisions ought to be
introduced into such Railway Bills rs-may.ciome before
the house during the present or future sessions, for;the
advantage of the public and the improvement a the rage
way system, and to report their opinion thereon to the
House." The Right Hon. Gentleman said.* thicimportant
question was one which had on several occasions been the
subject of inquiry, and as the several: Soleet= Committees
which had sat to investigate. -it, ' --had left their
examinations incomplete, he:: .Should: he• very • brief
with the statement which he had now to make
to the House. He would, however, very briefly inti-
mate to the House what were the immediate occasions
out of which the proposal which he had now to make
had grown. In the first place it appeared to the Go-
vernment that the time had come when it might be ad•
vantageously considered whether, after the operation and
the experience of severalyears, some modification might not
properly be introduced into the Standing Orders relating
to railways There was one of those Standing Orders,
for example, which required of all parties seeking to
obtain a Bill from the House of Commons, that they
should have 10 per cent. of their whole capital de
posited before they could succeed in their object. An
opinion had been extensively entertained that there
would be no disadvantage in reducing the proportion
of capital so required as a deposit ; but there was
no necessity for locking up at so early a period, and for
such a length of time, so considerable a portion of the
capital of the company. There was already a Standing
Order in the House of Lords limiting the amount to
5 per cent. There was another Standing Order re-
lating to level-crossings, in which it was also
proposed to make • some alteration. He . would
not detain the House, by dwelling further upon
the Standing Orders; but, over and above the pre-
sent question, the House would no doubt be aware that
the present was a great era in - railways. Great spe-
culations had taken place with respect to them, but
those speculations seemed to have been done away with.
During the last two or three years, the specula-
tions • in railways had considerably diminished ; but
in the present session he understood that no less than
sixty-six Bills were to be applied for, including upwards
of 900 miles, while the present extent of railways ex-
-ceeded 2,000 miles.—(Hear, hear.) It hail, therefore,
appeared to the Government that this was the fitting
opportunity to investigate the subject. The propo-
sal he had to make, comprised those companies
coming before Parliament of their own accord. He had
divided them into two classes, those Companies coming
before the House fof new powers, and new Companies
altogether, who were anxious to create new lines
joining• to the old. He proposed to take this matter
into consideration at the earliest opportunity, not in any
unfriendly feeling towards those bodies, but still in that
spirit which would be compatible .with the interests of
the public. There were many of those companies who
sought from the House new powers, and in return for
those he thought some equivalent should be rendered to
the public. lion. Gentlemen would recollect,that all private
commercial Bills, excepting Railway Bills, were
subject to the jurisdiction of the Board of Trade,
and he thought it would be advisable that some similar
jurisdiction should be allowed, which would give the
same right of supervision to the Board of Trade. He wished
that this matter should be brought under the consideration
of a Committee of the House, and his proposal would
refer not only to new companies, which might come be-
fore the House, but also that existing companies might
be subjected to such. arrangements as the Committee
might suggest. It was true that it might be difficult
to make any rule which might be generally applicable
to such different circumstances, but he had no doubt of
the right to interfere in the matter. But there was
an unusual disposition to restrain the exercise %of
that right within the limits of moderation.
The exercise of that right, however, at the
present moment, on the ground of any general malver-
sation, or general exaction, by railway companies.
would not, in his opinion, be justified. He excluded such
considerations from the notice of motion. At the same
time it
-included the consideration of such arrangements
timened
with regard to railroads, as Parliament would recommend.
Tnlipere ewntd ase now come
and ome
arties were seeking for
when capital abounded to an
u
some mode of investing it. Under these circumstances
, i)
it was natural to expect that it would take a direction•
towards the 'extension of railways. It was natural to
expect under those circumstances, that there
would be a disposition to make propositions
to Parliament for the establishment of com-
peting lines.—(Hear, hear.) • This suggested
grounds
for serious and • delicate consideration. But• his
experience of railway systems, informed .him that they
must not rely too much on the statements which were
put forward. The consequence of allowing competing
lines would be in many .instances an ...increase-9f ex:
action ; it would be a mere.multiplicatiell
of. monopoly,
for such were the facilities of combination that such a
which wisdom would dictate. Parliament- need,
competition only would be a course very far *ern that
,there-
fore, well consider what course they wou
adopt with regard to lines recommended es. com-
peting lines. Those observations were.not in-
tended to apply to local lines which were re-
ld
commetied by the national construction of the country,
and the local traffic they were likely to have. But
while Parliament had many strong grounds to avoid the
practice of unlimited competing lines, existing railway
companies had many motives to look themse
to the disposition on the part of the peoplelves
and it was tar better for their own interest
to make ',, terms with Parliament satisfactory to the
general feeling of the public, than to ex_pose themselves
to the opposition of competing lines.
subject upon which it .was desirable tha
arrangethent should be made. He alluded to the
to 'neglect of third class carriages ; he did not mean
0_
ac-
commodation There wtassooranee
en-
force upon railway companies such an increase f
break down the general arrangement which t
_e3r,
adopted-:-those who were willing to pay fo
commodation in the third class of carriages. as would
first and second-rate carriages ought to have
additional comfort, but he thought it matter of im-
portant concern, whether those who had not the means
of paying for the higher class carriages ought not to
be covered from the inclemency of the weather.—(Hear,
and cheers.) There was a great deal of feel-
ing •on the subject out of doors, and the
feeling was one which was likely to increase. He was
exceedingly desirous that no inconvenience should be
occasioned by the proceeding now recommended to
parties engaged in promoting Bills. He should propose
he would then proceed to business,
the nomination of this Committee, with an interval
before the Committee, on the part of the Go-
aasndshloarty as possible ;
vernment, such propositions as they were prepared to.
make. After the examination of those whose evidence
it was desirable to obtain, they would. re-
port the general conclusions of the Committee at
a period as early as possible, in order that, on all points
in which steps vverq taken with regard to Bills before
the Hense, no inconvenience or delay should arise. lie
was not aware that there was any other particular which
he need state to the House, and would now place'the
motion in the hands of the Speaker.
Mr. LAI3OUCHERE said he did not rise for the
purpose of objecting' to the proposition of the
Right Honourable Gentleman. He was glad to hear
that the Goyernment had brought it forward, because
great good would be likely to result from their having
done so ; but if he understood the Right Honour-
able Gentleman, the Committee was to examine
the whole ,subject 'of the present position of the
Legislature with regard to railways ; if he under-
stood the Right Hon. Gentleman, he said that
whenever railway companies came before the House,
asking for privileges or extensions of powers, the
House - had a right to impose en them what
conditions they thought proper to insist on.
If he understood the Right Hon. Gentleman rightly, it
was his intention to refer the whole question of railway
legislation to this Committee. The Right Hoe. Gentle-
man had expressed a hope, in . which he was sure
every one would join, that these questions might
all be amicably settled with the different railway
companies, and that he did not despair of the
Committee beingenabled to make recommendations to
which all the railway companies of Englandwould equally
be willing to agree. lie was afraid, however, that the
terms of the motion would preclude the Committee from
considering the case of any railway company which did
not come before the House for a new Bill; and he sug-
gested to the
•Right Hon. Gentleman the propriety of
making the terms of his motion more comprehensive, so
as not to preclude the Committee from -taking into
their • consideration the subject of railway legisla-
tion generally.—(Hear, hear.) He agreed in the
greater part of what bad fallen from the Right Hon. Gen-

tleman. On one subject, however,.he differed from him. ilalication of that capital had been unproductive of any
He disagreed - from that part of the Right Honourable i profit wliiitever. While_ there _were companies whose
Gentlemae's speech, in which he stated that he consi- 'shares were selling at 250, yet there were others whose
dered it might be 'advisable for the Government and the I shares were offered at forty, or fifty, or sixty discount,
Right Honourable Gentleman to enter into some sort of but still a great public advantage was derived from those
compact with the existing railway companies, to pre- very companies. Look at our bridges, our roads,
vent the construction of competing lines of railway.— and our railways, from which the public derived great
(Hear.) He thought that in some cases competing lines advantages, without having given one farthing towards
of railway might be necessary, in order to secure to the their construction. The Hon. Gentleman said the com-
public the benefits of competition.—(Cheers.) At panies ought to be compelled to adopt third class pas-
all events, 'they could do no harm. They sengers.. If the House interfered thus far they would
would secure the public against the monopoly have to take the whole management of railways under
of carriage possessed by some of the railway companies, their control. They must become responsible for all
For instance, the Great Western and Southampton were,. accidents. To suppose the House of Commons and the
to a certain extent, competing lines, and the consequence Legislature could do this was impossible. He perfectly
had been a reduction in the prices of carriage. He had agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the public ought to
recently, at one of the stations on the Southampton line, be allowed the advantage of new discoveries in science.
seen parcels directed to Bath. He had inquired, and He (Sir Robert Peel) would advise existing railways
had been informed, that they were competing with the, to consider well what would be the result of the applica-
Great Western line, and that when they had. tion of the • atmospheric railway.--(Hear, hear.) Emi-
a branch to Salisbury, there would exist a still greater:, nent men, who had seen the practical working of this
degree of competition, which would undoubtedly- railway in Ireland, had come back very altered in
benefit the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.; opinion as to the possibility of applying that principle
Gentleman had stated too positively that no advantage' generally. He believed that two brothers, men of the
could be derived from competing lines.—(Cheers.) He Jewish persuasion, were entitled to the credit of this
was sure the public would feel much obliged to the invention. The experienee of its working, over a very
Right Hon. Gentleman for having directed his attention few miles in Ireland. was such that very great doubt
to the high rate of fares charged for third-class pas- was entertained whether or not it was not capable of
sengers.—(Cheers.) Any one who had travelled on general application at a trifling comparative expense
the Continent could not but be struck with the beneficial Agreeing with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone),
effects produced by low third-class fares. There that it would he unwise in the Legislature to encourage
labourers went to their work of a morning two competing lines running very near each other; yet he
by railway, while here the exorbitant fares was sure his Right Hon. Friend did not mean to ex-
demanded for- • third-class passengers pressed elude that competition which was greatly effectual—
most heavily upon the humbler classes.—(Loud namely, such competition as would take place between
cheers.) The country generally was indebted to the London and Manchester, through different lines of coun-
Right Hon. Gentleman for the attention he had paid to try. He (Sir R. Peel) did not think that a sufficient ac-
the subject of railways.—(Cheers.) - commodation was given by railways to third-class pas-
• Mr. GLADSTONE was anxious that the, attention of sengers. But then it might be urged, on the part of the
the Committee should be directed in the first instance to railway companies, that if they were to give additional
those railway companies which were about to apply accommodation to the third-class passengers, those who
to that House-for additional powers. He hoped that he could afford to-go in the first and second class carriages,
should shortly. be enabled, with the consent of all the would go in the third class. It was clearly the interest
existing. railway companies, to submit the -general-Alb- ,of -the different railway companies to attract as many
jest of railway legislation to the Committee, and.nothine- passengers as possible, by carrying passengers at the
could- be -easier than to enlarge. the: pawers from time a cheapest rates. It was perfectly right that the House
time-by instructions.—(Hear, hear.) •s:' s. •- . should retain to itself the power of holding out the
• Mr. /EBUCK was glad that the subject had -been threat of competition to these companies. But it should
brought tinder the consideration' of rthe .1-Louse. He remind them that the advances which were being made
thought they ought to have no -half-and.thalf measures in science, must eventually diminish the profits ; but he
in 'Telation .to this subject. A • great revolution had trusted that the House would never consent to such a
been made in our several relations- by. the introduction . iiolittion'of the principle; or to attempt to reduce the
Of' the-railway system., Parliament had in fact created rate of profits by legislative interference—(Cheers)--or
certain -inonopolies, and, he asked the Right Hon. Gen' by interfering with the management of these companies,
tleman to go into the whole subject and -.not s con- for he was convinced thisrthe affairs of these companies
tent` -himself with • legislating:. in- those cases. :merely could never beso effectually conducted, as when they were
in -*Which railway • companies . might apply for conducted by the proprietors themselves.—(Cheers.)
fresh- powers. A monopoly-had been created by the Mr. STUART WORTLEY agreed entirely in opi-
extraordinary advances we had made in physical science, nion with the Right Hon. Baronet. When he considered
which could -not have been dreamt of twenty years ago. the absence of competition, he was really surprised at
He wanted the Right Hon. Gentleman to deal with rail- the amount of accommodation which the railway com-
ways-whichhad obtained powers from that House just panies afforded the public.—(Hear, hear.) Persons in
in -the same way as he would deal with those which were their station of life had no reason whatever to complain
coming to the House. These railways . had obtained a of the accommodation afforded them by the railway com-
monopoly from Parliament, but Parliament had a per- panies. He hoped the President of the Board of Trade
feet right to interfere with them for the public benefit. would consider the suggestions that had made to him,
He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman not to fetter and confer more extensive powers on the Committee.
the powers of the Committee with any of those shackles He thought some alteration should take place in the
which he seemed disposed to cast upon them. He would composition of the tribunal appointed to assess the corn-
just allude to a- subject with respect to which the Right pensation to be granted to persons whose property was
Hon. Gentleman had involved himself in a mystery— taken by railway companies. Every one conversant
competing lines. The RightlElon. Gentleman's proposition with the subject must be aware how very imperfect a
was that a competing line would not be beneficial to, but tribunal that was which at present granted that corn-
tell against, the public. Now, let him suppose a case. The pensation ;it was assessed at present by a jury—twelve
Great Western went to Bath, the South Western to men taken by chance, without any power to challenge,
Southampton. If by any chance or accident they could who might or not be interested in the question, and who
get a line which should make those two lines corn- frequently granted a sum very inadequate to compensate
peting lines, there would be a benefit to Southampton the parties far the loss of their property. He would
and Bath. In such a case, how was it possible that suggest that the question of compensation should be
there should be any disadvantage to the public ? He reerred to arbitration,• and he hoped the attention of
wanted the Committee to examine how it would be pos- the Committee would -be directed to the subject.
sible, by favouring competing lines, to benefit the public Mr. P. M. STEWART, finding that the Govern
by the mere fact of competition, the effect being to ment. although not adopting the suggestions of the
lower the prices in each competing railway. If there Right Hon. Member for Taunton, were yet willing,
was but one railway in the whole of England, command- virtually, to accede to them, would not oppose the
ing every possible communication, the company to whom motion. His Right Hon. Friend the President of the
it belonged would be the ruling power in England. If Board of Trade had laid the ground for the revision of
he, could divide them—if he could make the South- the railway laws.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that
Western Railway a competing power against the Great there were defects in those laws, and yet there was to
Western, he benefited the public ; and if he introduced be no inquiry on the subject. He thought the Com-
rules and regulations which prevented the amalgamation mittee ought to have the power to inquire into the
of the two companies, he conferred a great advantage on working of all railways, and he believed, by doing so,
the community. When the Hon. Gentleman talkd of great convenience would be given to third-class pas-
post railways having peculiar powers or peculiar rights, sengers by all railways.- Another great reason for com-
he mistook the whole question. Post railways had no pleting the revision, and having a thorough Report from
rights except those which Parliament conferred upon the Committee was, that at this moment, owing to the
them ; and Parliament, for the ;benefit of the commits great encouragement given to railroads on the Con-
nity, might revise and alter the rights which had been tinent, and especially by the French Government, Bri-
given. The Committee should have the power of con- tish capital was, to a great amount, seeking for invest-
sidering what means might be adopted for preventing ment there. Before the Committee dissolved, instruc-
mischief to the community by monopoly. He had un- tions ought to be given to the Committee to embrace the
derstood that on certain great lines of communication, suggestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
the Company had made their arrangements in such a for Taunton, without which their Report would be de-
manner, that whereas the first class train arrived at its fective, and their labour injurious, with regard to gene-
destination in six hours, the poor man, who was obliged, cal legislation.
from his want of means, to travel in the third-class Colonel SIBTHORP said that he found railroad corn-
train, was exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather panies always looking to their own advantage without
for four-and-twenty hours.—(Hear, hear.) He be- any reference to the public. He was, therefore, op-
lieved that on the Great Western Railway there was posed to all railroads—(Laughter)—and he saw no
no third class train by day.—(Hear, hear.) He would reason to alter his opinion. He called on the Chancel-
be glad to know whether the. Right Hon. Gentleman for of the Exchequer to levy a tax on railroads. They
was prepared to deal with post railways so far as this were the cause of the ruin of a number of persons, such
evil was concerned.? Were they to seek to induce those as inn-kespers and small shop-keepers in provincial
railways which had obtained powers from the House to towns, Those persons were now in poor-houses, and he
concede to their wishes? In his judgment Parliament thought it but fair that those who caused their distress
ought-to say to -them "We have conferred certain rights should be taxed. He had seen an Administration which
upon you, but as we find that you do not use them as had lest all credit turned out of power, and he hoped he
we expected, we will compel you to do what we require." should live to see all the existing railways become bank-
Take the case of a poor man going down to Bath. He rupts.
could not go by day ;he was obliged to go by night. Mr. PLUMPTRE said there was one point in connec-
He must stand the whole time; there was no place for tion with railways to which he wished to call the atten-
his accommodation ; he had no means of obtaining those tion of the House, and that was the undue use which
comforts which were- accessible to those who travelled in was made of them on the Lord's day. He was quite
the first class. He (Mr. Roebuck) travelling in the first sure that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had proposed
class, was in a place which was very much like a draw- the appointment of this Committee would most calmly
ing-room, where he was comfortable and warm, and contemplate every desecration of that day.
when he arrived at a station he could go to a fire. The Mr. F. FRENCH said he could not let this opportu -
case of the poor, who travelled by the third class was al- nity pass without saying that a sum of 20,000,0001. of
together different, and some alteration was necessary. public money had been expended on railways in Eng-
He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would do all in his land, and that he thought the fares were nearly treble
power to adopt the system of laying down new lines on what they ought to be.
existing roads. They had chosen in their extravagant The motion was then put from the Chair and carried
way to lay out 60,0001., and the public ought not to pay
MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND.
such an expenditure. He was prepared to say, that if
Mr. W. GLADSTONE, in rising to move for a Se-
science showed that they could do the thing at 2,0001.,
lest Committee to inquire into the Merchant Seamen's
that was all the public ought to pay.—(Hear, hear.)
Fund, said that it was essential that some steps should
He felt no doubt that the time was • not far distant when
it would be shown that railways might be laid down at be taken with regard to this body. It was a subject of
much less than the present proposed expense. He eonsiderable difficulty, and one which called for the most
hoped the House would deal with the subject with an
serious attention. There were two reasons which in-
duced her Majesty's -Government to call fora Select
unflinching hand.
Mr. RUSSELL denied the Statements of the Hon. and Committee, the first of which was, that the subject had
Learned Member - for' 'Bath, with respect to third class been before a Select Committee already, and they would,
passengers. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had consequently, have the assistance and advice of many
y
asserted that the third-class passengers were compelled gentlemen who had previousl turned their attention
to stand during the journey, and also.that there was no to the matter; and next, that the seamen were a class of
covering .to the carriage, He
,(sir: Russell)::: wished, men who had the strongest claims upon their sympathies,
before the Hon; and Learned Gentleman made such and were of all others the least likely, from their habits,
assertions, that he -should inform himself better upon the to bring their grievances before Parliament.
subject. . . Mr. LABOUCHERE said he could not agree with
Mr. WALLACE said, he was, *glad that the-the- 'the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the necessity of ap-
ment *had determined to enter tipbn this itiqtrity:, and pointing this Committee, inasmuch as 'one had sat •
before upon the same subject. When he (Mr. Labou-
he hoped that it would be carried out in the spirit pro
Member ' 'Bath; and some' 'Course chore) held the same office as that occupied by the Right
posed by the Hon. Me
adopted which would render equal accOmmodation to Hon. Gentleman he thought it was right that the matter
the poor, as that which they formerly had upon the should undergo investigation before the Government
highways of Great Britain and Ireland, for it was only proceeded to legislate upon it ; but in the present in-
since the establishment of railways that this distinction stance the matter had been already considered by a
had been made. In the various. Committees which sat Committee of this House, who published a most vo-
upon this subject in the years 1833, 1834, and 1835, luminous report, and made distinct proposals, recom-
special care was taken toinquire into the prices which mending an alteration in the law affecting this fund. •
should be charged as fares upon the railways ; and at Sir C. NAPIER was glad that the Right Hon. Gen-
the time it was asserted that the different companies tleman had taken up this matter, and if his suggestion
would be perfectly satisfied with six or seven per cent. or assistance could be of any use to that Right Hon.
The various railway companies were, like all other par- Gentleman be should be most happy to act as one of the
ties, looking after their own interests, while the Committee.
public was never consulted at all in the rate at Mr. GLADSTONE explained.
which the fares should be fixed. On the Grand Junction After a few words from Mr. RICE,
railway he could safely assert that the fares had been Mr. HUME said that he had a number of petitions on
twice raised, and he dared to say that the same was the the subject. The pepple of Montrose and other sea-
case with most of the railways throughout the kingdom. port towns were 'anxious to be allowed to lay their
He could•not see why some protection from cold and grievances before the Committee. That was their re-
wet should not be afforded to the poor man in the third quest. He had no objection to the Committee, but he
class carriage; and he thought that the profits derivable hoped there would be legislation on the subject next
from the first class passengers ought to be applied to session.—The-motion was then agreed to.
affording some greater accommodation to the humbler EXPENSES OF PRINTING.
classes. He hoped the Committee now about to be ap- Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the following
pointed would inquire into the whole question, and that gentlemen be a Select Committee to assist Mr.
the Right Hon. Gentleman would not alone limit the Speaker in all matters which relate to the printing
inquiry to railways about to be 'formed, but that, it executed by order of this House, and for the
should also extend to those existing. at present, and a purpose, of selecting .and arranging for printing re-
greater degree of accommodation and conafort be afforded turns and 'papers .presented in pursuance of motions
to the working classes. .. • • • . made by Members of this House, which may be referred
Sir R. PEEL said the question.moreproperly -before to the said Committee :—Sir George Clerk, Sir Robert
the House was the regulations thatsehould be, adopted in Harry. Inglis, Mr. ?usey, Mr. Vernon Smith, Mr.
the cases of new railways, and hethought it important that Strutt, Viscount Mahon, •Mr. Tufnell, Mr. Patrick
the •progress of legislation•-shouki net be interrupted. Stewart, and Mr. Hume Power to send for persons,
Parliament had a perfect right-to attach what conditions papers, and records ; five to be the quorum.
they pleased. They had a..petfeet. right to place limi- Mr. HUME said, he had last session moved for re-
tattons on the profits of new-companies-they had a per- turns-of the expense of printing each document, but they
feet right to exact' froM the new companies regulations had not been laid on the table of the House. He con-
with reference to third-claSs passengers.—(Hear, hear.) sidered there was great laxity and delay somewhere
He (Sir R. Peel) was not at all unaware of the evil of connected with this subject. The expense of every
monopoly—the monopoly which, he thought, Parliament document ought to be printed with the document itself.
had given to ralway companies.—(Hear, hear.) Still He did not wonder, from the mode in which the business
he must contend for this great principle, that there was was managed, that the expense of printing now amounted
a material distinction between companies approaching to 170,000/. or 180,0001.
Parliament for the first time aad asking for new powers, Sir GEORGE CLERK could assure the Hon. Gentle-
and the companies which, upon the faith of Parliament, man there was no wish to delay the returns he moved
had invested their capital . and had established lines. for, but there was great trouble in making them out.
Parliament might repent their indiscretion for having Mr. HUME thought it was as easy to make out the
granted those powers, but still the powers had been cost of each book, and bring it with the book itself, as
granted.—(Hear, hear.) He would not deny the corn- it was to bring penny rolls, and the price -at which they
petency of Parliament to interfere, but he had advised were sold.
'the House to be cautious before they did interfere with The motion was, then agreed to, and the House ad-
the profits, or with the management, of railway com- journed at Seven o'Clock.
ponies which had been called into existence by the au-
thority of Parliament. The Hon. Centleman had said
that, as far as his experience in railway companies went,
they always attended to their own interes. s. Why that
was the life and soul of all commerce, It was that
which seemed to be a selfish interest—which vilifiedcom-
merce, but which called into action the industry of the
country. The seeming selfishness was perfectly natural,
but it was that which ultimately led to the public good.
But he did not deny that Parliament had a right to
control those companies. But he advised the House to
have a cautious regard to the great public interest. If
they saw these companies were dividing 15 and 20 per
cent., and they were told some years ago that those com-
panies only expected to divide six or seven per cent.,
and upon that ground they claimed a right to interfere
with the profits of those companies, they were thereby
laying down a principle which would be destructive of
all speculation.—(Hear, hear.) They must take a
comprehensive view of the subject in legislating upon
it They - must consider that in these great
companies not one farthing of the public money had
been expended, and yet great public advantage had re-
sulted, and that from the application of private capital.
They must not forget, too, that in many cases the ap

CHILD-BIRTH IN THE Srow.—Shortly before five
o'clock on Friday morning, whilst the snow was fast.falling,
as a police-constable, of the P diviSion was going his' rounds,
near Atarylebone workhouse, New-road; he heard a moan
proceed from one of the gardens attached to the houses op-
posite that establishment, and, on close inspection, found a
poor woman lying in the snow, together with a living infant,
of which she had just been delivered. • The constable imme-
diately ran to the Marylebone Infirmary, and gave informa-
tion to Tebutt, the porter, who lost no time in conveying it
to Mrs. Walsh, the matron. Blankets and an easy chair
were at once provided, and carried to the spot where
the poor creature laid, and she and her offspring having
been wrapped up, were at once conveyed to the work-
house, where, after receiving prompt medical attendance,
they were placed in bed; and ;yesterday both mother and
child were found to be doing well. At the time of the oc-
currence, the poor woman was on her way to Queen Char-
lotte's Lying-in Hospital, where, by the regulations, females
are not admitted until the very last hour, when their ac-
couchement is likely to take place.
DRY Hum OUR.—An Irish post-boy, having driven
a gentleman a long stage during torrents of rain, the .
gen-
tleman drily said to Paddy, " Are you not very wet?
" Airah ! I don't care about being very wet, but pluses our
honour I'm very dry.'