The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON ',.

feeling, and should they by such a Bill as this be called
upon to lower that standard? He would conclude his
remarks by hoping that the result of the division would
be to establish still stronger in this country religion and

piety.
Mr. FOX rose to reply. He said that throughout the
whole of this debate he had heard nothing which
touched upon the precise effects which he hoped to ac-
complish by his Bill. He had been incited to brieg for-
ward this measure by the acknowledged and demons
strated necessity that something should be done in this
direction. He had no wish to demolish existing system'
in order to reconstruct; but the cause of the great d's-
ficiency he had certainly assigned to the spirit
religious proselytism which had been too much mixed
up with education. There was no want of proofs of the
alarming deficiency in education. But one of the moals
alarming features in these proofs was that for the last dozen
years, which were years of magnificent exertion in the
cause of education, if they looked at the records of crime
they would find that the number of criminals who had
received what indeed was called education, had increased
to an alarming extent. What was the position of those
great societies to whom the cause of education had been
committed? All at war with each other—the main-
springs of action in themselves broken by dissension.
It had been assumed that if religion were not made a
part of school teaching they were warranted in
saying that religion was totally excluded. He denied
that assumption altogether. He thought it was an im-
pious assumption, that man could be led away from re-
ligion by a secular education. In such a country as this,
wrier° religion was so closely interwoven with all the
feelings of the people, such a result was impossible. If
religion was to be a part and parcel of education,
of course it must be the true religion, and who was
to decide what was the true religion ? Was
it a majority of that House, or of the country ?
Had they learnt their own religion so badly as
to have forgotten to respect liberty of conscience ?
Under the existing system the salaries paid to school-
masters were beggarly in the extreme. This was proved
in some measure by the advertisements that are con-
stantly appearing in the daily prints, where it
was not unfrequently announced that schoolmas-
ters and their wives were required for different
parishes at salaries varying from 401. to 501.
per annum.—(Hear, hear) Why, in America, a young
woman who had charge of an infant school received
701. a year.—(Hear, hear.) Nor was the poverty of the
salary all. The schoolmaster was often degraded and
insulted by the manner in which the salary was paid.
It not unfrequently happened that the school-
master had to collect his own remuneration
from the subscribers to his school, while, by an order
which had recent'y been issued by the National Society,
he could be dismissed from his situation at a week's no-
tice.—(Hear, hear.) No wonder, then, that men of energy
and talent treated the office of schoolmaster with con-
tempt, and left their schools in disgust whenever they
had an opportunity of bettering their condition, or find •
ing more equitable salaries in other occupations.—(Hear,
hear.) With regard to the objection that it would be
dangerous to separate secular from religious
education, the Honourable Member assured the
House that the danger was purely fanciful, arid read
a number of authorities in support of his opinion.
He apprehended the separation of secular from religious
instruction was in every way necessary in order to pro-
duce the whole amount of benefit. He wanted to see an
education which would not send children into the world
unacquainted with the simplest objects, unacquainted
with the number of ounces in a pound, with the number
of feet in a furlong, with the names of the month, unac-
quainted even with the name of the reigning
sovereign, ignorant of the very elements of industry and
art, without anything to guard them from becoming the
prey of the demagogue or the fanatic, and ignorant of
everything which affected the rise and fall of wages,
and of what legislation could do or could not do in con-
nexion with their interests.—(Hear, hear.) The feeling
of the working classes on this subject was strong. He
knew that the genuineness of the report he bad read to
the House from a society of working men on
a former occasion had been questioned, but no reason
had been given to impugn its genuineness. That report
came from working men, and had not those working
men spoken out on the subject at larger and more into
resting meetings that had been held since the more
stirring political agitations had taken place. Again, he
would call on the House to look at what those men were
doing for the education of themselves and the sacrifices
they made, and at the schools which had been insti-
tuted at their instance in this metropolis. To
those schools the working people paid and were
content to pay. What was the fact as to the Prus-
sian schools? There was no absence of religion
there, and religion was intermingled with the teaching.
If there was an absence of religion, there was the
presence of a larger amount of secular instruction.
The Hon. Member proceeded, amidst much impatience,
a2d cries of Oh," to advert to the system of education
in the United States, which he said had been the means
of diminising crime to a very great extent. He did not
mean to say tLe.t education would entirely counteract the
fearful amount of :,!norance, vice, crime, and misery
which existed in this suntry, but education was an
essential condition, and wouid 'neatly tend to diminish
those evils. With it they would g'!ve the Sovereign the
fairest chance of having an enlightened people, augment
the glory of the nation, and give to the great masses
that instruction which first humanised them and then
Christianised them.
Mr. HUME rose, amidst loud calls for a division, to
speak in support of the Bill. Tho lion. Member laid
down his premises methodically, and was proceeding
very deliberately to explain and illustrate them, when
The SPEAKER, informed him that he had no right
to address the House, because he had already spoken in
the course of the debate.
Mr. HUME was incredulous.
The SPEAKER, however, went seriatim through the
names of the Members who had spoken on the day when
the debate was adjourned until he came to that of " the
Hon. Member for Montrose," and thus convinced the
Hon. Member that he was not entitled to proceed any
further on this occasion.
Mr. HUME, who seemed to bear his disappointment
very good humouredly, declared, amidst meets cheering
and laughter, that he was not aware he had spoken
before.

Mr. 61UNTZ asked the Hon. Member for Oldham
whether he intended to abandon the compulsory part of
his Bill?
Mr. FOX replied in the affirmative.
Mr. MUNTZ said, as be had been brought ap in the
faith of the Church of England, he should have no ob-
jection to that Church conducting the education of the
people, if he thought she could possibly do so, but having
many years' acquaintance with the working classes,
ho considered that a system of education on such
a plan would not be at all feasible. The
working classes were decidedly opposed to the
Church having the control or superintendence of
their education. The question was, whether it would
be best to let the children of the poorer classes go alto-
gether without instruction, or whether they should have
the advantage of a system of secular education,
such as that proposed by the Hon. Member.
He had employed a great number of men during
his lifetime, and without fi ar of contradiction he would
say that there was no comparison between the properly
educated and those who were not educated—the former
were open to reason and much more easily managed.
While he did not agree with some Hon. Members that
any system of education would put a stop to crime, he still
thought that some general plan of education was
necessary, and whether the present Bill was passed or
not, he hoped the Government would take the subject
into their serious consideration, with the view of giving
the people every opportunity of improving themselves.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading •••
Against it ..•
Majority
The Bill was accordingly thrown out.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL.
Sir J. DUCKWORTH moved that this Bill be com-
mitted pro forma, for the purpose. of introducing certain
arnendnaent4.
Sir G. PECHELL objected to their going into Corn-
mitte at all at that late hour.
Mr. HUME said the measure was one of national im-
portance, and he should therefore be glad to know if
Government intended to support or oppose it.
Sir G. GREY said so far as the general object of the
Bill went he perfectly concurred with it, but there were
clauses in it that were highly objectionable ; and it
would, therefore, be his duty to move amendments
when they got into Committee.—(Hear, hear.) The
simple object of the Bill was to repeal an old statute,
and to make more effectual provisions for ascertaining
the accuracy of weights and measures.—(Hear, hear.)
The Bill then went through Committee pro forma, and
the House having resumed, the Bill was ordered to be
printed.
THE COPYHOLDS ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
At the instance of Mr. AGLIONBY, the second
reading of this Bill was postponed until Friday night.
The remaining; orders of the day were disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Six o'clock.

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