The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-16 00:00:00

SAVINGS' BANKS.

Mr. 11. HERBERT asked if the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had been able to make up his mind when the
Savings' Banks Bill would be brought
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
state of public business rendered it difficult
to command a day. The first day he could fairly take
for the Bill he would not fail to avail himself air.
STAMP DUTIES BILL.

On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
as there had been so much misapprehension on
the subject of the altered Bill, he thought it right
to state, that although a considerable number of
reductions had been made, in no instance
was there any additional taxation imposed ;
no other tax hail been levied in the altered Bill now be-
fore the House beyond that contained in the first
schedule, which had passed through Committee. He
had received a great number of communications from
parties respecting this measure, and as it was impossible
to transmit to each an answer, he had referred them all
to the board of Inland Revenue for consideration, and
a digest had been made e f the whole, and he believed he
via 3 now justified in stating that 99 out of every 100 of
the persons who felt aggrieved by the measure bad had
their views met by the alterations which had been•made
by the G:,vernment. lie stated when he introduced the
Bill that he intended to proceed on the ad valorem prin.
ciple, and he had carried out that principle as far as he
possibly could.
Mr. GOULBURN said the Right Hon. Gentleman
intended to intro lece into the a mock for levying
the stamp duty which had heretofore never been adopted.
It appeared to him that the system proposed by the
Right Ilan. Geetl man would lead to great ineonveri-
enee and much injustice, and would suggest that the
sta'e should be a descending and not an ascending
one. Under the existing law, a mortgage for
50,0001. paid a duty if 251., but when this
Bill passed it would be raised to 250/., while a mortgage
for 150,0001. would have to pay 7501. Now, would the
House allow him to point out the inconvenience which
must result from this? Why, the ingenuity of man
would suggest some mode of advancing money without
incurring expense, or the practice of lending money upon
mortgage would be greatly restricted, if not abo-
lished, and as either alternative must prove
highly injurious ti the country, he hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman would reconsider his plan.
With regard to marriage settlements, the Bill certainly
would have a very ill effect, for though it decreased the
duty under 500/., when they amounted to 1,000/. it in-
creased them, and he must remind the House that there
were unfortunately more settlements effected above
1,0001. than under.. He had stated these objections in
order that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might take
them into consideration before going into Committee.
Mr. MULLINGS, in objecting to the Bill, remarked
that the first duty was the bargain and sale duty for one
year. It should be put in the same category with lease-
holds for years. He conceived that the warrants of at-
torney and mortgages might put in a claim (as we un-
derstood) far further consideration. It was his opinion
that taxation upon loans was a vicious principle, for it
was a tax upon the necessities and distresses of the
people.—(Hear.) He knew of parties being frequently
in such a situation that they were not able to pay the
expenses of the mortgage.- But what would be the case
under this Bill ? Up to 1,0001. there would be relief
afforded, but the moment they passed beyond 1,000/.
the evil would be aggravated. Upon 2,0001., where. 61.
was now paid, 101. would be required ; upon 3,0001., in-
stead of 71., it would be 151. ; upon 4,0001., instead
of 81, it would be 20/. ; and on 5,0001., instead of 101.,
it,would be 251. ; and so it went on up to 100,0001., when
the stamp duty was 5001., and so that in cases that be
knew a party would have to 'pay 6001. and 7001. stamp
duty. This did not affect the laud only. Then iu a
settlement, if any person granted an annuity, whether
contingent or otherwise, that was calculated as an abso-
lilt- annuity, and had to pay stamp duty, although it

might never come into effect.—(Hear.) It hud— been
staod that this Bill would give relief, and it bad been
calculated that the revenue would lose 300,0001. a year.
It was his belief, and it had not been altered by the fal-
lacious set of duties he had r.ean, that the produce of the
revenue would be infinitely more than 300,000/.
Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER thought there were
many objections to the Bill, especially with reference to
building societies.

Mr. i:IUME said that hitherto small sum; hal paid
more duties than large ones; and as he understood the
Government, the objrct of the Bill was to make
all pay in proper proportions, if such was the case (and
he had been told that it was), he felt bound to support
the Bill.

Mr. HENLEY complained that time had not been
given to Members and parties to consider the Bill as
reprinted, and the House was called upon to act in the
dark. Under such circumstances he thought they ought
not at present to ga into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. SADLEIR observed that a more difficult or a
more complex Bill than the Stamp Duties Bill, with its
schedule B, could not possibly be laid before the Rouse.
It involved most difficult questions, and embraced more
interests throughout the United Kingdom than any other
measure that he knew of. They had been told that the
Bill was to be a great boon to the United Kingdom, and
that declaration was followed by a Bill which, he was
happy to say, had been abandoned—a Bill that he was
unwilling to speak of in harsh terms, because he did not
like to speak evil of the dead, but yet a Bill of which he
could not refrain from saying, that if it had passed in
the shape it had been brought forward would have
brought disaster and ruin upon the agricultural and
commercial community alike.—(Hear.) He was happy
to say that the Right Hoe. Gentleman had adopted nine-
tenths of the suggestions that had been made; but even
now with his amended Bill he asked the Right Hon.
Gentleman was he prepared to st ind by his sugges-
tiens?—(Hear.) Would he even now say that he would
not 3 ield to any suggestion?—(Hear.) What provi-
sion, lie asked the Right lion. Gentleman, was there in
the Bill for that large class of deeds that were now un-
duly stamped?—(hear, hear.) There was no law so
consistently avoided as the stamp laws, and why so?
Because they dare not enforce them—because if they
did enforce them they would bring to a complete stand-
still the mercantile operations of this great com-
mercial country. Tho Chancellor of the Exchequer
regarded all dealings above 1,0001. as large transactions,
and subjected thew to high rates of duties. Assuredly
the Right Hon. Gentleman must know that transactions

under -1,000/. were of wry limited nature compared
with others above that sure. Benefit would have been

conferred if the duties had been lowered ou all transac-
tions under 10.0001. I❑ Irrl end the daius in one ease
were increased 100 per cent. upon a certain class of leases
which now paid only Is. It was desirable to have the
registration of all and the stun charged Was the

'
same upon a Louse of 10/. a year as upon 5001. 9 Seed
Then the stamp duty on securities was the same, 5p
there was no application of the principle of graclust';o 0 o
to them.—(licar, hear.) In the next place he though
was extremely unjust that mere personalty should ltd
subjected to the same scale of duties as were to be arbor
upon re ;l property. Then he came to the case of red
able annuities; and why, he asked, were they to be "'„5?
higher rate of stamp duty than mortgage transaetito
itesteeinable annuities were mortgages granted by te,11,714
for life; and it was monstrous that any Bill should
submitted to the consideration of the House which cep
tained principles so directly opposed to one ellnitroo
whilst no al tempt was made to set at rest those quel",a,
of litigation which referred to licences granted by Pa'lo
tees. Again, by the imposition of a progressive &Vs*
addition to the ad valorem duty on mortgage transaetifo
they would drive parties to resort to practices by °Pie
he feared the titles of this country would ere longrA
come as voluminous, prolix, and entangled as the 'IV
titles with which the Solicitor-General had reeenje
been dealing. He also regretted that no effort was 01"-ep,
by the B:11 to remove the difficulties which had er're
and which were daily increasing, with regard to the P
per duty upon the transfer of mortgages.—(Hear, hest
Hui. and Learned Gentleman (the Attorneruebo
ral) shook his head to express his dissatisfaction et is
not being allowed to rush at once:into Committee; bslige
Was Lust possible that the observations which he k
Sadleir) and other Members had made might be
ad
us. ans of rendering the Bill useful and practicable; et,
curtly no one would say that they could, without at,
Ong their own reputation and the reputation of the
yen meat, pass such a measure unaccompanied by be
remark through the House.—(Hear, hear.) Virre
own part he was anxious to take some pains, in orderer
send the measures which originated there to the neios
House of Parliament in as perfect a shape as attee`po
and care could make them; and he trusted the Hon; ace
Learned Gentleman would exhibit no further im.patiSo,
upon the course which had been taken in this irest7b,
Another point to which he desired to refer was the to
ject of portions for younger children. They' WI •
now exempt from settlement duty ; and he pow
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether 1,70
ought not so to continue. But the greatest objet'of
he had to urge was the ex post facto operatic:4U,
the Bill, even in its amended form, with regard toarl;
which had been either entirely or in part executed. 04
frequently occurred that the greatest difficulty W 95 . bi
perienced in the attempt to ascertain what was thence,
stamp for a deed. This was the cause of constant ea
filets and contentions, but there was not a public ee:6
in the country which would give the professional let',
the landed or the commercial interest, the slightest ,11
formation upon the subject. In his opinion it was big;
desirable to vest a power in the Commissioners fee
land Revenue to declare what was the proper staniPdsela
to be imposed upon a deed; and as it was professed tit:bo
it was intended by the Bill to confer a boon upon
;pe
landed interest, he would suggest the addition of * 501
pie clause, enacting that every stamped instruero
executed anterior to the passing of the Bill should
deemed and taken as duly stamped. That would ibeiy
practical boon and a substantial benefit to the landed to
terest. In concluding, the Hon. Gentleman said theloo
claimed exemption from additional duties for all t 13,/.
parties who might have been so unfortunate as not to4"op
placed a correct construction upon the existing 05,
laws, under which no man could be confident its exPreo
ing an opinion.
The House then went into Committee.
On the first clause being proposed, oto
s The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER '.
and said, that with regard to a great number of (1110.0.1
tions which had been raised in the course of the pre° d
discussion, they would be more conveniently answer
when the clauses to which they particularly refer;il
came under the consideration of the Committee. It eta
not true that he had ever stated that be proposed st Tn.&
sure which would be of general relief to all parst/01
What he stated was, that he proposed a measure two;
would afford relief in all transactions of a small awl ti
, whilst he should indemnify himself by raising the etp
on those of a larger amount. And when he laid cl°.
0-
that principle it appeared to meet with the general
sit,
probation of the House-;-(Hear, hear.) He stated
o,
tiectly that he proposed to adopt an ad valorem T'01;
throughout; not that there should be a higher amount
large sums, but that the per-centage should be equal. bt'l
posing 100,0001. or 200404 were borrowed, no doebso
would be hard if a high per-centage were placed 1,5;
that amount ; but the htirdship would be just as grip
upon the poor shopkeeper,, or other person In similar .cO.O
cumstancea. If it were just in the one case, it was Jot
in the other ; and the principle that appeared to higlsd
most fair to adopt v. as that of an equal per.ceile
on large and small sums, He quite felt that
.0a
amount of duty upon borrowing was very large. Piro
after having had communications with the eliereil
man of the Board ef Inland Revenue, he was prePeore
to move in Committee an equal per centage on In of
gages and bonds. lie had at first proposed a dutioe
per cent. on mortgages and bonds; he proposed
,fiel
to reduce it to a uniform I.— that was to say, inse'llP
of 10s. on every 100/. 'l'tt e Hon. Member for Osf r.
shire (Mr. Henley) had asked him if he could net
sulil
nish some information to the; House to show what W;',lf
be the probable amount of revenue. But it was to,t
a matter of estimate, and he was afraid that lie otoio
not lay upon the table any return by which a 01/00.
onclusion on the subject could be arrived at. The
antleman must be aware that it was the mass of .„ 411
transactions, and not the few large ones that prodfuolii
the great amount of revenue. He had gone care oat
over the matter, however, will those persons in lots
Board of Inland Revenue who were numbers of the
Board of Stamps and Taxes, and the nearest coeclasi.te
to which they had been able to come, after revising it rilio
the utmost care, was that the loss by the propositioatoe
he at first stated it, might, under the most favoura,le
circumstances, be taken at 270,000 L—he had previol/.0
stated it at 300,000 L—and that the proposal he 1364
made of reducing the duty from one-half to 0001.
quarter per cunt. might occasion a further loss of 50,0 i,
or 60,000/. But he could not prove this. It was
sae
possible to produce figures to show the loss upon t7O,
section; of this nature. He might look for some ;of
crease of these transactions by reducing the Amount rr
the stamp duty, just as he looked for an increase 0'
ere
venue from the Customs duties when they ot,
lowered ; but it was impossible to say to what extvoo
What he now stated was upon the authority of °hot
who had the best information upon the subject. 0°
be
no other authority; and the loss upon the propositioet it
now made might run up to 320,0001, or 330,0001.; blebs
would certainly be more than 300,000 L—not less. foe
Hon. Member fsr Cirencester (Mr. Mullings) had guar
notice of a clause for obviating the inconvenience 4,',/
arose out of doubts upon the amount of stamp °aft ,
payable by law. He (Sir C. Wood) thought it "low
tremely desirable to d that. He did act think, 'oil
ever, that the clause which the Hon. Member prop
would affect that object in the best possible v a/.tee
in order to attain that object, he (the Chaneellor oto,
Exchequer) should propose to give to the Canada.
sioners of Stamps the power of deciding and 5e),,,,511
eating what the stamp duty should be in cases of 5"
amounts.
0013'
Mr. DISRAELI had understood the Right fer.
Gentleman originally to say—and he bad, in fact, re jos
red to the expression himself this evening—that helot
tcnled to bring in a measure for the advantage of.„l,et
he called the landed interest, and the object of the sile)
Hon. Gentleman was a praiseworthy one.—(Hear, eesbe
It was to assist the smaller proprietors—that was_,Bre
expression then used; that these small proprietors rid
not the least important part of the landed interest,
that they were to receive relief from a modificatin,ho
the stamp duties that affected them.—(Hear, hear-) ;he
Right Hon. Gentleman now said that at that do eo,
informed the House that he could not make this bea_
cial arrangement for the small proprietors, nnless fe of
the same time made some other changes which wenot,
course, press more upon the greater proprietors--40e10)
recur to, or adopt, an ad valorest system.—(Hear, Pb 0
Now he (Mr. Disraeli) could not recollect that W e
the Right Hon. Gentleman made his financial statee3n..n.o
that the phrase "ad valorem" escaped from tc those lir-
-(A laugh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER"°
yes.—(llear, hear.)
lii
Mr. DISRAELI—WeII, but what was the etseij
Hon. Gentleman's proposition when he came foriv74,
with his bedget?—(Hear, hear.) He said, lam ks'elP
to introduce a measure , for the advantage of the 5
proprietors tied the landed interest. I anticipate tree'
the changes which I am going to make will cost Woos
venue 300,000/. or 400,0004, and I am going to seeriwei '
of my surplus a sum to that amount." Well, that_ho
an intelligible propOsition.—(ltear, hear.) But 70 .1
did he say to-night ? Why he said, "I am prepared to,
benefit the landed interest and the small proprietollt
the amount of 350,0001.; but as compensation for theetis
must lay on an amount :of taxation which will proberow
reach at least to the same extent on the greater gons
prietors." Now he (Mr. Disraeli) asked, was that tae
sistent with the Right Hon. Gentleman's original los of,
went, that he was going to devote a certain portie'rest •
his surplus revenue to the benefit of the landed ante ley
—(Hear, hear)—when it turned out that the greet fibs
of the Government was to tax one portion .°0 of
landed interest in order to relieve another porSost
the landed interest ?—(Loud cheers.) Had the
'",B 11)
,
Honourable Gentleman—(continued Mr. Di"wee
introduced a measure the object of which 0
to benefit the (small proprietors by devotiegos
their service a portion of the surplus revenue, se of
originally stated, I should have accepted a measureol
that kind as a boon; but the present measure--erettoed
be a politic and necessary measure—is one of borer
taxation upon the landed interest, or a considerable itto
non of the landed interest; and whether it be a 001.
and necessary measure or not, I maintain that
„v.,
sure of this kind ought to be brought forward fral2*o4
(Hear, hear)—that it ought not to be brought fold of
under a false pretence; that the Government shoe see
upon an occasion of such importance as the budget ',ogle
forward and announce that they are introducing 0,...,"deti
sure for the benefit of a considerable section of the iStee
interest, by devoting :to them a portion of the 60.71.00
revenue, and then when we come to the details it ',bet
out that this good is to be secured by taxing tine; see
portion of the landed interest.—(Cheers.) But if, °is to
have been told to-night, the Right Hon. Gentlensallo,
find compensation by an ad valorem scale of (10'004
want to know what he means to do with the 30t tie
e
surplus revenue in the Treasury which may not
night
cessary. Probably he may devote that to-morrow
h ; _ides,
to reducing the tax upon paper, or some other eses)
which his friends may propose to him.—(Heart 's/. of
At present, however, it appears that we have 300,0lfejoh
surplus, which may be devoted to any purpose w'
lion. Gentlemen may suggest.—(Hear, bear.) old
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, to
that by the rules of the House he was not at liber.ibot
refer to the report of the debate on a former nigill,o3ber
he begged to say that the memory of the Hon. !Ito,
for Buckinghamshire was most inaccurate, for that .1-1 r
de
entleman had put into his mouth expressions and 11,:' 01
which he had never uttered.—(Ministerial cheers-) /0 ''
course he had not done so intentionally. What 116/ k

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