The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-25 00:00:00

t527(71T7--.-
elPre, . , .3r, hear) An Irish Member opposite ' present case, the Government did not deny the facts ;
he o,,i'en ha;
abhor; erc, o. the Pope ; but !lilt most they would offer no explanation, and they would oot
'I.Y In Li ;.. .' •
inpport,..o , slowual ca tacit, ,for the sane. Memiter state on what principles they ha I ,noted. They c ill-
POiditr I,th" Gov rinent in giv'ng effect to the tented them,elve, with savin,--" We have such a
aewortli3
,ae-potisni in i is• cis-,1 el•ar-teter by these majority as van stifle inquiry.- Such beil-f., tile
j,e(_()111';'•n - li, f.'o thatt--3,,-r t.l ' ci,,e, no % o'e of 0- obore , .ud 1---. Twve.i. i ,4..!ie.t
to must`'''' i.o led • ,c,r, .1 t:. ,t i,',11,41a.ii, t i,.. them.—(liet:r ) o 0 (pitt.' '3.1 " 1 _.., (itle,tl,l.l :',
Vith
iis be fared, ha t inucuLted the Gorertint.:nt attempt it.—(ilea:.) T.,,, ri,tust. az.d the public
vievrs—(Cheers) for he believed were kept in equal ignorance of the facts of the case.
tilolstt.lorish letters had frequently been opened in the He did not know that inquiry would cast any blame
koretalureer(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet the on the Right Hon. Gentleman. It might not cast
MatteredY or the Home Department had stood up in more blame on him than it had on Lord Melbourne
ths eoud garments of his public credit, to defend in the case of Popay; but if that inquiry were
tentlea, uct of the Government towards a Polish refused, it would go hard to destroy the doctrine of
broken
~an, Count Ostrowskia whose desk had been Ministerial responsibility. With regard to any alte-
iksae, "01,)en by the police, and his papers seized and ration in the law, that was too grave a subject to be
1,,Q Over to the Russian Embassy. discussed incidentally. It was perfectly competent to
any Hon. Gentleman to propose an. alteration in the
kttet:ltei.earl of SHELBURNE wished to call the
the ban of the House from what had fallen from law. He had approved of the law in 1837, and he
kerai,l,'grht Hon. Gentleman. He told the Hon. thought it was a power that ought to exist. If, how-
toiti,luae. for Finsbury that, if he had grievances to ever, upon discussion, it should appear that the exist-
he r,_.111 of at the hands of the Post-office, ence of such a power produced more evil than good, he
hasaalght institute proceedings at law—(Hear, would be prepared to abolish it; but the question now
oii"•`:2_es•-and that there would be no difficulty before the House was, whether, when a Minister
totally refused any explanation of facts, and would not
the‘Z_ part of the Post-office as to the production of
itt
e.,airrant. even say on what principles he had exercised his
If that were so, he did not see what
opeti_,v;ty there could be in forwarding the letters Powers, the House would be satisfied with that re-
Was 'u (Rear, hear)—informing the person that it fusel, and not exercise its functions of inquiry.
°Pened. Mr. M. MILNES regretted that his Right Hon.
Sir la Friend had
• PEEL said that he wished, in the first not thought it consistent with his duty to
place , to refer to a remark made bthe Honourable
y state one fact, and that was, that he had not coin-
, tie_municated to foreign Governments the informa-
IN wan who spoke last but one, who attempted to
lest ace a case which had no bearing upon the pre- tion which he had thus acquired. If he had thought
la oall'aatter, hut which was calculated to produce it consistent with his duty to make this statement, he
?ess,.."'lle prejudice against the Government. He believed that the public and the House would have
strg-ed to the case of the Polish nobleman, Count been satisfied. Now, although the Right Hon. Baro-
Ills °wshi. He could state, on the authority of net had not thought fit to do so, he (Mr. M. Manes)
' Right could. not consent to vote for the Hon. Member for
lay ght Honourable Friend, that no autho-
fortawas given by his Right Honourable Friend Finsbury.—(lronical cheers and laughter from the
sohiege detention of any papers belonging to that Opposition benches.) He thought it most important
the attar). The most rigid inquiry had been made from that the knowledge of these matters should be confined
taar„Quee, and there was every reason to believe that to the secrecy of the Cabinet. The power should be
Wese'' Paper found in the possession of that gentleman used by
.the Minister solely for his own information,
with delivered up to him, and no communications, and the information so acquired should not be corn-
late regard to any papers found on that gentleman, municated to any other person. Now the Committee
ter. made to any foreign diplomatic agent.—(Hear, could not be conducted without the violation of this
der) with regard to any authority derived from secresy, and without making public the contents of
thaiv°,vernmn a he could speak on that point con- those letters. Ile believed that they would find that
teeeivelY• With regard to the information which he the agitation. on this subject would lead to bringing a
liat what
on inquiries which he instituted, he believed powers into odium which he certainly admitted should
not be exercised but on extraordinary occasions.
tasteet at he had stated to the House was perfectly
4(14', In the couse of the debate Hon. Gentlemen .
11Ir. SHEIL said as they were approaching the
Folder largely in assumptions with regard to the critical moment of the evening, he thought it right to
teemed exercised by his Right Hon. Friend, and
address a few observations to the House. The House
slaketo think that his Right Hon. Friend had should take care to distinguish between the case of
las to of that power as if it were a light power, and the present Government and that of the last. His
lila° he exercised without a serious and deep feeling Noble Friend, the Member for London, when filling
it, xresponsibility which attached to the exercise of the post of Home Secretary, might have given a war-
PrieriPlling that had fallen from his Right Hon. rant of authority for opening letters; but no refusal
ltaeci" could justify such an assumption. He had ever been made by his Noble Friend—no inves-
ted
that, as Secretary of State, he was in- tigation had ever been denied—(Hear, hear)--no such
N , with the power by law which he was case had ever been brought before a British House of
tlasetuY authorised, but which he was called on, if Commons—(Hear, hear)—as that now under their
liso t was any consideration of public duty in ques- consideration,. and which was certainly accompanied
lhath° exercise. The Right Hon. Gentleman said with circumstances of a most suspicious nature.—
tier ac Would assume that the power was universally (Hear, hear.) A call had been made upon the Right
he l'o4ed• Now, what were the grounds on which Hon. Gentleman to state reasons for acting in so un-
fair ended that statement? On a former occasion, common a manner; but he answered them by saying
taaiDersons presented a petition to the House of he would meet the demand with his responsibility.
heed
t'„°°s, and that evening another petition had The Right Hon. Gentleman said he was sensible
total i'resenied, complaining that their letters had of his responsibility. Why what was the meaning
°Pened. The Hon. Gentleman who brought of the term ? He said his conscience was pure, but
waria the who, besides himself and colleagues, Eas ue motionahad not stated who those persons
Wls ' and had concluded his speech by a motion of
kh nity of ascertaining the correctness of the statement ?
klar., he had not given the slightest notice. With —(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet asked
t!oils ato three out of the four who presented peti- what were the facts. He (Mr. S.) asked the same
Its, 0° a former occasion, they entertained impres- question. Had not enough come out, even by the ad-
-Ijoii totally unfounded—at least his Right mission of the fact itself, to justify investigation ?
'?Asarl:iriend stated, that with regard to three no (Hear, hear.) They said it was a right—well he ad-
otaisht i'; had been issued. Ills Right Hon. Friend mitted the right, but did not the extreme assertion of
bat "a" stated in perfectconformity with the truth a rht often reach the propinquity of consummate
1, the
~... ?—(Hear, hear,
~'4li he allegations in those petitions were unfounded; wrong.
'tasa was afraid if he said that it might be consi- that.in the discipline of the army this assertion of au-
!! that he denied the statement with regard to
, ; am , thority was often and perhaps necessarily carried out
`ss ' lie, therefore, stated that with regard to one toa great extent—he could understand the Duke of
4a11.t had been issued. His Right Hon. Friend Wellington as Commander-in-Chief, exclaiming at the
l taciehned to make any statements with regard to Horse Guards, sic volo sic jubeo, fiat voluntas, but he
ttlei all he asked of the House was to draw no thought such language hardly became a Home Secre-
Sll4lO/1s from that.—(lronical cheers.) Now, how Lary.—(Hear.) Why should not the conduct of the
,14 b:Be case ? This power of issuing a warrant .Home. Secretary._ be made. the subject of inves-
'4e tia,en committed to the Secretary of State since tigation in that House ?—if that check were not held
'ollea-;)! of Queen Anne. About eight years ago, over the
.Minister his conduct might soon become
voyea„`"e Noble Lord opposite was the organ of the authoritative, arbitrary,. and capricious.—(Hear, hear,
le "'Tient in that House, an alteration in the Post- and great cheering.) The charge against the Home
tloita4et took place, and this power, in his Secretary was,. that he caused. a warrant to be issued
ssha", was most justly retained.—(Hear, hear.) for the opening of. a certain letter or letters, and that
Nai °Pinion the Government was justified in re- he. had done. so without reference to any plot or con-
kiterig the power they had retained. They con- spira.cy in this country.—(Hear, hear.) It was not
!the the law, the amended law of the late President to discover. any Chartist or Repeal organisation, but
11%4', Board of Trade, who he believed introduced it was entirely connected with our foreign relations.
s_Ni Dog the
was the author of it as it now stood, re- Was not that so? Had not the Hon. Gentleman read
der 13" 'lie provision nearly in the same words as the
. of
tisa Queen Anne. He thought his Right Hon. months ago, in which it was boasted that the conduct
''" 4 w in • • he had of this Mazzini was under the surveillance of the Lon-
,lle. -,. as justified exercising the power
qtjtic, 4-f the House thought the power ought to be don police ? And much the same statement was made
ks'ttished let it be but let be done '
a Apt
of
in the Augsburgh Gazette. Was it proper treatment
I.`,'end regular manner, hy a motion for repealing
an unfortunate refugee, who had sought an asylum
K•k!,s, r; of which notice had been given. The Right in the hitherto esteemed sacred soil of Britain,
11`41RhCentleman opposite had said that the system whose misfortunes entitled him rather to sympathy
~'Utir abe carried on by the Government towards than condemnation, that his mist secret thoughts
'afela liGlitical opponents ; he believed he might should be placed under the prying inquisition of a
British Minister?—(Hear, hear, and great cheering.)
lea Right
that had not been the case in late years.
He felt bound to say that the English Minister had
Zes Ea'glit Hon. Friend had introduced no new prac-
acted a most un-English. part.—(Loud and long-con-
t .•415; to letters • he had not carried it beyond
,Nicro-afte, tice of -Mr Fox and Lord Grenville. He timed cheering.) The British Home Secretary
ought not to degrade himself into the spy of a foreign
agkißs' carried the powers of the law beyond the
.Cabinet. He should not allow himself to be made
gis Right
°f those two persons. If the House pressed
a labs • h instrumental in the procuration of evidence for a
askirsoaga L Hon. Friend to specify the cases in which
foreign Minister—evidence,. too, which might in-
''tl la's had been issued, he thought it would corn-
volve the sacrifice of the properties, nay, even of the
tort'c'i to act unjustly to individuals.
aNloe, J. RUSSELL regretted that his Hon. Friend lives of the suspected arties:--(Hear, hear, and re-
:4m,', given a definitive notice on the question, Hewed cheering.)rt
the Public opinion was against them.
lot th.'n regard to the position of the House, be did I. n every. pa. of . country there was but one feel-
in h• udc itwouldmake much, if difference. The
fa t .ra,
land felt indignant that a social inquisition of this sort
Ns, I'lol4. Baronet the Secretary of State on a
,'"e a,-,°.ecasion had stated what his resolution was on should be established.—(Hear.) His Right Hon. Friend
the Member for Edinburgh, who, though he repu-
nlynect ; the question, therefore, now stood ex-
'ce, aarlan the same situation as it did on the former diated the efficacy of torture, tried it with power, but
"kV& `With notice to the law of
respect to as tried it in vain, on the Home Secretary—(Hear,
A n hear) the peine forte et dure proved useless.—
a I? letters, the uestion now before the House
aNds'ac'taar whether the Secretary of State had ex- (Laughter.) He would not detain the House further
per ' "IS power, but whether he had adopted a pro- than by again protesting against the violation of that
tighttrpretation of the law. In that respect the seresy winch had. been long. held sacred. He did not
Llttis, lion. Baronet seemed to have followed his think it was consistent with the principles of honour
''t• ia'essors and therefore if the law had been impro- or of justice that that letter should be broken open
aente - ' be corrected • for his own
1,, 11_, rpreted, that must . , in which the hopes, the fears, the joys, the afflictions,
the affections of our fellow man
iaala e, thought in dangerous times the law and were contained.
become useless if the interpretation Mr. STUART WORTLEY said he thought that
tole
la People put upon it was considered voting for the present motion would be sanctioning
tth
ai. e right one. With respect to the law itself, those unfounded imputations which had been cast on
moat stated by Sir Robert Walpole that it was a the Home. Secretary. He thought the House was
°of t 0 be used in times of public danger, and as a not sufficiently aware of the merits. of the case._
4:1 that he referred to the case of the Bishop of (Hear, hear.) He would vote against the motion.
PliQter, whose plot was carried on through the Mr. WAKLEY said the Hon. Member who had
h; hoe"' of the Post-office.—(Hear, hear.) He (Lord just sat down would not vote for the present motion,
's ,r) thought the Right Hon. Baronet should although he considered the. character of the Govern-
-11(11 havene the coarse pursued by Sir R. Walpole, ment had been unworthily dealt with ; he believed
a stated the principles on which he proceeded. the conduct of th.e. Government. so proper that he
ki joys
a_ 1, er was to secure against public danger either would refuse inquiring into it,. although he acknow-
t7th-:e or abroad, and was to be used either to put hedged he did not know anything at all of the merits
idea. I"allbordination at home or wars in other coun- of the case.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member for
I
that 4 the performance of this difficult duty he Pontefract expressed a wish to know what communi-
laia e 4 that i Secretary of State must be the cation had taken place on. this matter with foreign
ta as if t, he
q:' his .:"e Public danger was so imminent as to jus- States,but would vote against all inquiry which might
al ntlea,interference or riot. But the Right Hon. tend to elicit that information. He certainly thought
sraLlqtaan had taken no such ground. He had not that the two Right Hon. Baronets (Sir R. Peel and
kc:•sta stue,in tcasay that the power had not been ex- Sir J. Graham) were not very happy on this occa-
a 1%44 nad been stated by his lion. Friend the sion.—(Laughter.) He never was more surprised at
etig.ii afor Finsbury for the purpose of assisting anything since he came into that House than at the
Nt Vov
k time , ernments.—(Hear, hear.) If such were statement of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
111°,1t awile (Lord J. Russell) must say that it was a of State for the Home Department, and the speech of the
h• Justifiablsuch power.-(Cheers.) If Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government.
tit iga, .5... e use of
oa slatter Right
Hon. Gentleman had stated the principles' The lion. Gentleman had never on pre-
aria •
G1:11. qa'eh he had used that power. If the Right vious occasions been subjected to a more disagreeable
liteleman had stated the principles on which occupation, in defending his colleague, than on this.
alcalltlezn used the power—if the Right Honourable The manner in which he attempted to defend his con-
pilUi hist had stated that he agreed in opinion duct showed how bad the case was.—(Hear, hear.)
liki " 'lon that to the power for the It would seem, from the spirit of the Home Secre-
kat. se of • Friend, use
iall, assisting foreign Governments was an un- tary, who complained that he had not had notice of
Geld o esuse of that power, and that he had not, and the fifth case, that numerous letters had been opened
ae°l•4 p Make use of the power for that purpose, he at the Post-office. He wanted to know how many
It ahl a• Russell) would have been satisfied, and really had been opened. From the speech of the
'Rht not have voted for the Committee. But if the Right Hon. Baronet, it would seem that it was a
NI 110
a 00, it h• Gentleman would not make such a deck- practice at the Post-office, and the House was justified
sZthyofeertaitaa
. y would not be beneath him, nor un- in so inferring from his speech.—(Hear, hear.) Pub-
tiaJaat...... his Position to consent to inquiry on this lic feeling—public indignation had been aroused
lie or the He recollected that during the against the practice ; and a man had rightly remarked
to-u,, b,serille late Government a committee of inquiry to him (Mr. Wakley), a day or two ago, that a still
sniovedfor at the time the Right Hon. Gentle- worse practice than the employing of spies by the
laiiieli faele Was a member of the Cabinet. It was a Government had been lately resorted to, for the Go-
pa ?Ile • inquiry into the conduct of Lord Mel- vernment had become spies themselves.—Hear, and
fate' who, as s for the Home De- cheers.) He knew no prac-ice more odious, or more
Pta,nt, Was ecretary of State
1,,_ ixt, i_ accused of having employed Popay, a likely to bring a Government into odium, or to de-
it'latiari. u the police, in endeavouring to excite insur- grade the character of the country in which it was
All'iiry i 'sir. Cobbett had moved for a committee of tolerated.—(Cheers.) This question might be said
aaaser. haw all the circumstances of the case, and the to be the touchstone of Ministerial responsi-
a4‘; no :or Oxford had objected that a committee bility ; and if accountablility was not demanded
tiohceas of Proper tribunal for considering the circum- in such a casef as this, he knew not when it
ia"' eona : the Cage. Mr. Cobbett renewed his mo- should be en orced.—(Hear, hear.) The control
thetlient nirlf.'s' it specifically to an inquiry as the em- of the House of Commons over the Government
thsdeb °f Popay. Lord Althorp, speaking during became a mere mockery.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
debate °fbounden duty of that
sithe police, had stated that the idea of employing it was the _ House to insist upon
Ara tby „" Spies had never been anticipated inquiry. He observed that the Hon. Member for
that iostit ‘"0 Right Honourable Baronet who had Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand) laughed—it reminded
no afrUted the force, or by his successors in office. him that himself and the Right Hon. Baronet though
butt sueozds could be too strong to stigmatise con- so much at variance in other respects seemed to agree
fe;. if as . that of which palmy had been accused ;in one point—both demurred to this House as tri-
Vag . v had hea . cheers and a laugh)—they were now
soap 3 he
a a guilty of such conduct he had bunal—(Great
have the Hon. m
ern-
kiq. 4ha seeded his instructions—that Lord Mel- in the same boat, and he would .
d dne •out, as it was in a sinking
154;., Aitt,_ never given him such instructions ; and ber for Knaresborough look
(Cetioll ",°rp concluded by saying that he had no state.—(Cheers.) He thought that the party which
tt, 'leers \ '() the appointment of a Committee.— supported the Government had been lately placed in
tile ') Th
taa lIa„_ e Committee was appointed, reported as low a position as they could he, but. if they. per-
inch could
taes?ed, ire, and the subject was subsequently dis- severed in adhering to an Administration w
Ns 'lt ? i‘sad.. that been any injury to the Govern- be capable of such acts, it would only prove that
Joaitatros,o."e'a from it. The Government at that time though in the depths of the deep they would find a
assa to (11 enough to have secured a Ministerial ma- lower gulf still.--(Cheers.)
al saaee a ash inquiry.
But they had not done so. Lord HOWICK supported the motion, if the pre-
. 4 rsa T.
la
act
aonie
sit would have been unworthy of them sent system were allowed to go on, it might at length
tlasuats no e°•,—(Loud cheers.) There could be, be carried to such an extent, that the Minister might
' aztatitut:d those Ministerial responsibility unless this himself be justified in breaking open the letters of his
inquiries.—(Cheer..) A the political opponents. He agreed with his Right Hon.
___