The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

of her Majesty's Government should rise and state
what view he took of the motion of the lion. Member
for ()leihem, he did not hesitate to say that ho hop( d
the House would not refuse permission to the
Honourable Gentleman to bring in his Bill.—(Hear.)
He thought that no one could doubt, in the
, first place, the importance of the subject, and, in the
next place, no one could say that education wits in such
a state in England that no further measures were re-
quired upon thu subject; that there was not much to be
lamented in the present deficiency of the means of edu-
cation; that there was not much which good men de-
plored, even in the education which was given; and
that there was not yet more to be deplored in the ab-
sence of education among the great mass of our people,
whose instruction, and still more, whose training in re-
ligion and morality, deeply concerned the welfare of the
whole community. If that were the case, the only other
question that retrained was, whether the Hon. Member
for Oldham had approached that subject in a fitting
spirit—(flear, bear)—whether he had been deeply im-
pressed with the importance of the task he had under-
and whether the object he hail in view was to
provide for the better education, not of one portiere net
cf one sect, hut of all classes of the people in this em-
pire.—(Hear.) He thought every one should acknow-
ledge that the spirit in which the Hon. Gentleman had
approached that question was one worthy of the sub.
ject—(Haar, hear)—that he had stated full and ably
the rresent deficiency of education, that he seemed
clearly to perceive in what that deficiency con-
sisted, and that whatever might be the merits of his
proposal, his inclination was to produce a plan which
should not excite jarring contentions, but should rather
tend to unite the various opinions prevailing upon that
subject.—(Hear, hear.) If that were the case, he said,
there was good cause to induce the House to agree to
the request of the Hon. Gentleman that he should lay
that Bill on the table of the House. As to the further
questions, what were the difficulties which surrounded
the subject, and whether the plan proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman would overcome those difficulties, what was
the manner in which the plan proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman might be viewed by the public and by those
who were at present engaged in the promotion of educa-
tion, and whose services in that cause the House was
bound to honour, those were questions on which he
thought it better not to attempt to express upon that
occasion any imperfect views, which would not, perhaps,
be correctly founded on the measure which the Hoe.
.Member meant to introduce. He, therefore, altogether
declined to give any opinion at that moment with respect
to the plan proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. That, he
thought, was afar better course, than that he should either
commend that plan prematurely, or make to it objec-
tions which, after all, could not, perhaps, be founded
on the merits of the case itself. This only he would
say, that he thought that, perhaps, of the whole state-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman the part in which he most
doubted the accuracy of the allegations was that in
which be had alluded to the failure of the efforts made
for the improvement of popular education of late years.
His (Lord J. Russell's) impression rather was that al-
though the great efforts which it had been proposed
that they should have made three or four years ago had
not led to as large an extension of education as they
had anticipated, yet it had been attended with a con-
siderable addition of its blessings. Whether there was
a failure at present in the desire and the means of carry-
ing on education, that again would be a matter for sub-
sequent discussion. All he should then venture further
to say was that he thanked the Hon. Gentleman for the
spirit in which he had brought that subject under their
notice.—(Hear, hear.) Frequently as he had been dis-
appointed in discussing that question, he could not but
hope that, whether or nct the plan of the Hon. Gentle-
man should be adopted in the shape in which he had
proposed it, such a plan of general education discussed
with temper in that House might tend to advance that
great cause in which society was deeply interested, and
he should certainly cordially concur in giving his assent
to the introduction of the Bill.

Sir R H. INGLIS said he willingly admitted the

temper and the ability:with which the Hon. Member for
Oldham had introduced the subject. But at the same
time he could not coincide in the principles on which the
plan of the Hon. Gentleman rested, or in tho objects at
which he aimed. The Hon. Gentleman had said that

the question no longer was, whether it was or it was not
good that education should be diffused. But the point on
which he (Sir H. H. Inglis) was at issue with the Hon.
Gentleman was as to what was education. According
to the Hon. Gentleman it appeared to be the instruc-
tion of a man in those branches of learning which
terminated with man in this world—(Hear, hear)—and
the omission of every consideration of the eternal
destinies of man, for which this world and all its
concerns were but a most fleeting preparation. The
Honourable Gentleman had said that the education
of the people was less advanced in this country
than in Prussia, in Saxony, or in other continental
countries. Bat he (Sir E. H. Inglis) thanked Heaven
that the people of England were sufficiently educated to
have saved us from the excitement which prevailed a
few years ago in Prussia.—(A cry of " Oh" from Mr.
B. Osborne.) The Hon. Member for Middlesex cried
" Oh," but ho (Sir H. 11. Inglis) believed that the Hon.
Member had reason, in common with the rest of the
people of this country, to thank Heaven for the charac-
ter displayed by its inhabitants on the ICth of April,
1848; and the people who had displayed that character
must, he felt persuaded, in some way or another, have re-
ceived the advantages of a good education. He would
not on the present occasion enter into questions of detail.
He wished the House to bear in mind that they were
asked to give their assent to a Bill which proceeded upon
the supposition that a system of secular education was
desirable for the people of this country. The Hon. Mem-
ber admitted that he did not wish to interfere with any
existing system of religious education, but wished the
education provided by the State to ba secular or temporal.
Ho admitted, nevertheless, that religious, education was

•
the greatsst boon a child could receive—(Hear, hear)—
and then to show how his arguments and his facts
might be retorted on themselves, went on to say that
notwithstanding this great boon he could not but admit
the practical conclusion to he a great increase of crime.
[Mr. Fox intimated dissent.] Did ho misrepresent the
Hon. Member? He stated as the result of the reports of
the different gaolers and inspectors of prisons, and in.
spcctors of schools, that religious acquirements were no
evidence of morality.
Mr. FOX said his position was that you could not give
real religieus instruction unless you bestowed on the
mind so much of other knowledge as rendered it a fitting
soil to receive the germ.
Sir R. H. INGLIS was willing to take the position as
the Hon. Member had now put it, and could confidently
refer to those schools in which a religious education
was given, and ask whether secular education was seen
there coincident and in juxta-position? The Hon. Mem-
appeared to think that in those schools where religion
was taught nothing else was taught. Now, though he
never would consent to admit that anything could be
put in competition with that which was destined to fit a
child for eternity, yet he asserted that at that moment,
in the greater part of the schools to which ho had re-
ferred, and with which ho was acquainted, as large a
proportion of secular education was afforded as
would be found in any other schools. This was a
question of fact upon which he could only state his own
personal conviction and belief. However, as there ap-
peared to,:be no intention to divide the House, he would
merely recur to a proposition to which he had ventured
to call the attention of the Government some time ago
—namely, that they should make up their minds AS to
what encouragement they would give to lay members of
the House of Commons, to amateur Members, in bring-
ing in these Bills. Let no man feel himself aggrieved if
the Government, on the first movement of any subject,
should say at once, " This subject is good, and we ought
to take it up; and this is bad, and neither you nor any-
body else ought to take it up." The time of the House
would be greatly economised if the Government would
thus interfere with the discretion of private Members.
He did not mean to say that this subject was one on
which the deliberate consideration of the House would be
unwisely exercised, and he, therefore, would not refuse
permission to the Hon. Member to lay his statement for-
mally in the shape of a Bill before the House. But he
earnestly hoped that ultimately the House would nut as-
sent to any measure which proposed to give the reci-
pients of education a system which terminated with this
world, leaving them to acquire from their fathers and
mothers—whose ignorance he had admitted—that know-
ledge on which their ultimate happiness depended.
Mr. M. MILNES agreed with the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government in thiuking that it would be
better to postpone the discussion of the question till the
second reading of the Bill, and would nor, therefore, re-
ply to the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet who had
just sat down. All that would be admitted by allowing
the Bill to be brought in would be that religious and
secular education rested on different grounds. The one
was capable of advancement and encouragement, and the
other not, and therefore the State might legitimately
interfere in the one, though not in the other.
Mr. HUME applauded the course pursued by the Hon.
Member for Oldham, who, to prove the inadequacy of
the present system, had not depended on his own know-
ledge, but had referred to the most able and independent
authorities. He denied that his Hon. Friend had advo-
cated a system of secular education alone. The Hon.
Baronet had asked what was education? He had always
considered it to be that mental training which fitted a
man to be a good member of society, and a good life led
to religion. Neither had his Hon. Friend proposed any
system of State education, but merely that property
should be made locally available to supply the deficiency
which existed in the education of the people. He
hoped that all would co-operate in so modelling the Bill
as to secure a general scheme of education for the coun-
try at large.
Mr. PLUMPTRE had understood the Hon. Member
for Oldham to state that the deficiency of education was
so great in this country that not above one child in
thirteen of the riskg generation enjoyed its advantages.
Whether he had rightly collected the words of the Hon.
Member or not, he evidently thought the education of
the people at the present time very deficient. The
Hon. Member very liberally stated that it was not his
intention to interfere with schools already established,
whether in connexion with the Church or otherwise;
but his intentions were prospective; he merely wished
to fill up the gaps. He wanted, however, to know from
the lion. Member what clan he proposed to introduce
into his new schools. If he understood him rightly, his
schools were to be open to the children of persons of all
denominations, but there was to be no religious instruc-
tion whatever, end the children were to be left to such
instruction as they could get from their parents or others.
The population of the districts in which these schools
were to be raised up, however, the Hon. Member pro-
posed to tax 4 id. or 6d. in the pound.—(No, no.) All
he could say was, that if such were the plan which the
Hon. Member proposed for the education of the great
mass of the rising population, ho for one most solemnly
and religiously protested against it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE quite agreed with the Noble
Lerd in thinking that the most judicious course would
be not to enter into details on the present occesion.
In fact the way in which the detaila bad been mistinder-

stood showed that they were not in a position. to dis-
cuss them. He could not, however, refrain from paying
the humble tribute of his praise to the whole, extensive,
and statesmanlike view taken of the subject by the Hon.
Member for Oldham. He was sorry to add one word of
bitterness to the discussion, but he must take this oppor-
tunity of proving that he had had the benefit if some
education by expressing his sorrow for having Allowed
an involuntary 4. Oe" to escape him when the li se. Ba-
ronet the Member for the University of Oxfort insti-
tuted the parallel between this country and ?Tustin,
which, coming from so good an historian, he was sur-
prised to hear. The Hon. Baronet might have told
them that as in Prussia there existed a highly educated
people without a representative government, the natural
course of events was to upset that state of things in
which, in fact, there was taxation without repro•
sentation.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Baronet -went fur-
ther, he alluded tc the 10th of April. Now he remem-
bered but one passage in history to which that rebellion
could be likened. and that was the rebellion of Lord
Grizzle in Torn Thumb. The Hon. Baronet asked what
was education? He (Mr. o,borne) had had, ho would
not say the honour, because he regretted that he had
ever been there, hut he had been a member of one of the
Universities. He was sent there to receive, not educa-
tion, but instruction, and he knew not any year in his
life which he more wished to forget, and when he reflected
on all the vice and the little learning which he saw while
he was at Cambridge, he looked on the two Universities
as great hindrances to all proper education. He was the
more inclined to support the scheme proposed, because
he saw in it a strong assimilation to what he thought the
best mode of education—namely, the national system in
Ireland; and in conclusion, he could not help suspecting
the philanthropy of that man who would deny the people
education save on the condition of instilling into their
minds his own particular prejudices.
Mr. NAPIER was rather surprised to hear the Hon.
Member for Middlesex fasten on the University of
Cambridge the bad habits which he appeared to have
acquired.—(Cheers and laughter.) Although the Hon.
Member might have found opportunities for indulging
in vicious pursuits, he might also, it was to be hoped,
have found occasion for the development of virtuous
habits.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had adverted
to the Hon. Baronet's observation as to the conduct of
the population of Middlesex on the 10th of April, but
perhaps the intelligence of that district might be judged
of by the representative they turned out and the one
they put in. The House would have an opportunity on
the second reading of the Bill of fully discussing the
whole system of national education; and he trusted that
the same spirit would be preserved which had marked
its intreduction.—(Hear.) He concurred in some part of
the Hon. Mover's views, but differed from him at that
point where ho wished to separate secular from
religious oducation. The proceedings of the association
were of great importance. He had looked into its pro-
ceedings, and had derived much advantage from it, be-
cause, although there were many things with which he
could not agree, still he thought it best to do like the:bee
and extract all the food that was to be found there. In
Manchester a meeting was called a short time since, for
the purpose of discussing this very question, and a pro-
position was submitted to it in the spirit of that brought
forward by the Hon. Member for Oldham, and yet, after
full discussion, an amendment was carried of a very op•
posite character. He hoped sufficient time would be
given for full discussion, and he thought it better that a
Bill of this kind should be brought forward by a pri-
vate Member than by the Government, as the latter
might, perchance, invest with a party character a ques-
tion which ought to be calmly and patiently considered
on its own merits exclusively. In conclusion, ho could
not but express his satisfaction to see an endowment
proposed and advocated by the advocates of the volun-
tary system.—(Hear.)
Mr. COCKBURN regretted the allusions made by the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
to the Hon. Member for Middlesex, as it was desirable
to avoid all personal and irritating topics on a question
of this nature. This much, however, he would say of
the constituency of Middlesex, that with the integrity
and intelligence of their present Member they had every
reason to be satisfied. He felt called on, as a warm
supporter of the general principle of the measure, to en-
ter his emphatic protest against the view which the Hon.
Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford had
taken of it. He denied that it was a system having re-
gard only to the concerns of this world. He did not so
understand it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Oldham to him appeared as deeply impressed as
any man, that if you could combine religious with secu-
lar education, it would be most desirable f a. the State to
do so. Why, then, were they separated? Because it
was found impossible to combine them in one sys-
tem, as it would be impossible to obtain the con-
currence of either the Established Church or the
Dissenters. But it was said that religious education
was by far the most important. He freely ad-
mitted it ; but if you could not, as a measure
of national education and policy, have both, was
that any reason why you should not have one?—(Hear,
hear.) Did the State at this moment maintain any sys-
tem of State education? None whatever. Schools
were established by the exertions and contributions of

individuals; and was there anything in this Bill to pre-
vent the continuance of the system? Certainly not.
Would any one contend that education in this country
was in a more forward state than in Prussia? At all
events would any one deny that the education of the
people of England was very far from what it ought to
be?—(lleir, hear.)
Mr. W. MILES reminded the House that in 1839 a
proposition was made to separate secular from religious
education. What did the country say to it?—(hear,
hear.) Was there not a cry raised against it from one
corner of the kingdom to the other? Did not the Church
of England and Dissenters alike approach the House with
petitions, and did not a Noble Lord, now a member of
the other Howie (Lord Stanley), bring forward a mo-
tion against it, and though in a minority, did he not
very nearly carry his motion? Did not the Archbishop
tf Canterbury move certain resolutions condemning the
principle then brought forward? It was not his inten-
ion to enter into the question. He should be happy to
took at the Bill, which he hoped would be discussed with
the same good temper and forbearance which had marked
the present debate. Nothing would do more good than
a general discussion upon the whole system of educa-
don, which he should like to see settled by Act of Par-

dement; but while he was prepared ;to discuss it with
temper and forbearance, he would not sacrifice one iota
of his opinions.
Mr. LAW was very glad that an opportunity would
be afforded for discussing how far an interference with
education could be justified by a body not immediately
responsible to Parliament. With reference to the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, ho had not understood him to
assert that a good education could not be had at Cam-
bridge, but that a good education might turn out fruit-
less.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, however, must
have made up for lost time, for he never could have sat
in that House as the representative of Middlesex, unless
he had taken great pains to become at a late what he
might have become at an earlier period.—(Hear.)
Air. NE WDEGATE wished not to misunderstand the
Hon. Member for Oldham. As he understood him, the
inspection was to be carried into the secular education
Of every school of every denomination, and on the re-
port of that inspector as to insufficiency, it would be
competent for the Government to establish schools on the
principle proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, and to rate
the inhabitants.

Mr. FOX said the lion. Member had in part mis-
understood him. The foundation of his plan was the
deficiency of education in different localities. The means
of ascertaining those deficiencies already existed to a
great extent in the documents which the Committee of
the Council had accumulated by means of the reports of
the inspectors. In a district such as that under the care
of the Rev. Mr. Dawes, in Hampshire, to whom the
cause of education was under such important obligeions,
the task would be easy enough. His national school
was conducted in such a manner that not only all the
children of the parish, but even those out of the parish,
attended it; farmers' children and labourers' children sat
together, and received the same instruction; and all the
inspectors would have to do in such a case would be to
report that the education was satisfactory. Where all
the inhabitants of a district were of the same religion,
they might incorporate religion as much as they pleased;
but the cane was different when the population con-
tained members of various denominations. He did not
mean that religious education should not begin till secular
education had finished; on the contrary, be meant that
they should go on together, continuously and concur-

rently; but he could not think that mountains and stars
taught infidelity, or winds and waves heresy. He did
not wish to press the measure through the House, and
would conclude by fixing the next stage after the Easter
holidays.—(Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
JURISDIC rioN OF COUNTY COURTS.
Sir G. PECHELL presented petitions from Brighton
in favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Lewes.

Mr. FITZROY having presented petitions in favour
of extending the jurisdiction of the County Courts from
Berkshire, Birkenhead, Chichester, and Lewes, said, in
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the juris-
diction of the county courts from 201. to 50/., it was not
his intention to trespass on the House at any length.
The principle for which he contended—namely, cheap
access to justice, had been already conceded in the estab-
lishmen of these county courts. No doubt it was desir-
able at first that the sum should not be a very large
one, in order that sufficient experience might be obtained
of the working of these courts ; but he believed that it
was within the knowledge of any gentleman who knew
anything of the subject that the results had been
most satisfactory to all parties interested in the
working of these courts.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed
the public had already given its verdict in favour
of these courts—(Hear, hear)—for it was known that
the number of suits that had been already brought into
these courts, although they had been only three years
in existence, amounted to considerably more than
I,ooo,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) The proportion the suits
in these courts bore to the suits tried in the courts of
Westminster Hall was not less than four to one. The
great objection that he understood would be urged
against the motion he was about to submit to the House
was, that it would affect the interests of the legal pro-
fession; and he had no doubt that their profits would
be considerably diminished. Although of course he hail
no wish to see the profits of aey class of men reduced,
yet it was desirable that they should not give such
encouragement to the heaping up of legal expenses
as would ibe a practical denial of justice to a large
number of the community. All he asked of the
House was to extend to the creditor of 501. the same
protection that was already extended ;to the creditor
of 201. He would mention one or two cases
to show the inconvenience of limiting the
jurisdiction of those courts to 201. There. was now be-
fore the court at Colchester a person on his petitition as
an insolvent. Ile was the plaintiff in an action—his
cause was at the bottom of the list, and he and his wit-
nesses had been kept there a whole
,week. The conse-
quence was, that although he got a verdict for 32/., the
amount Qf his demand, With 1304 costs, and although he.