The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-24 00:00:00

LONDO N,

however, in the reign of George IV., had allowel to
certain trades the right of vending such an article,
meter particti!er re,trietion:eL; by an itjeriter
traders foe the use of poorer cuetealere; who might wish
to avail themselves of the cheaper substitute. But with
this modification, the Commissioners of Excise were
obliged under those Acts to cnferce the penalties laid
ugainst every class of dealers who came under the ope-
ration of the And this had been always done, with
but two exceptions. Those who adulterated tea were
prosecuted; those who adulterated pepper had been sub-
jected to penalties; and in the same way with respect to
other articles ; but it appeared to him that by a certain
Treasury minute, to which he would have to refer, par-
ties were encouraged t.) adulterate coffer. In April,
1833, a minute had been passed, founded on a memorial
from a party praying for exemption from the conse-
quences of a prosecution instituted against him for mix-
ing chicory powder with coffee. Oa that occasion the
Lords of the Treasury had discontinued the prosecution.
On another occasion, in reply to the Commissioners of
Excise, they had in some sort authorisei the sale of
chicory powder. Arad in April, 1841, when the pre-
sent First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir Francis T.
Baring) was Chancellor of the Exchequer, on
the occasion cf a memorial presei,ted from the
coffee-dealers in Liverpool, praying for a change in the
law resr eating that trade, it had boon set forth in a
minute that the mixing of chicory with coffee was not
considered a fraud on the revenue, and certain prosecu-
tions commenced had bee❑ stopped. It had been sup-
posed that as long as the chicory paid the proper duty
there was no loss to the revenue. Now, it should be
supposed that some strong infl tepees actlated the Chen-

ccjllor of the Excl.equer when he allowed the lair dialers
to be put down, the revenue to be injured, aad the public
health to be endangered by that practice. The Hon.
Member then went into some statistical statements,
showing how the revenue from coffee and foreign chicory
duties had diminished since the year 1830. Foreign
chicory paid duty as well as coffee; but when it was
ascertained that no duty was imposed on home-grown
chicory, its cultivatioa was carried on to a large extent
in this country; and from the year 1840, when the last
Treasury minute on the subject had been issued, there
was a double advantage derived from the adulteration of
coffee by chicory. It would be found that for three
months in the present year, as compared with a cor-
responding three months of the previous year, the loss
to the revenue on the coffee duties amounted to
about 36,0001.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber having referred to some authorities to show
the increase in the quantity of chicory lately
grown in this country, and having entered into calcula-
tions of the consequent lo,s to the revenue, asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer how he could come down
to that House to propose new taxation, when he aban
doned an actual amount of revenue to the extent of
250,0001., and oid not endeavour to realise a probable
increase of the same to the amount of half a million. In
reply to what the Chancellor of the Exch: quer had said
on a former occasion, he would observe that if a party
wished to purchase coffee at a fair price let him do so,
and pay a tair price for it as coffee; and if he wished to
purchase chicory at a fair price, let him do so also, and
mix the twe articles then according to his own taste.
But even the article grown and sold in this country as
chicory was in itself adulterated to a very considerable
extent, in consequence of the demand f'r it. He bad
the authority of parties well acquainted with all the de-
tails of the trade for stating that that which was called
chicory was largely adulterated with what was called
common radd:e, a kind of earth like Spanish brown, and
inferior to Venetian red. Another party, to whom a
complaint had been made with respect to the colour of
coffee, had said it could be itnprovcd by being worked
up with soot.—(Hear, and laughter.) All the adultera.
tions to which he had alluded were under the sanction of

the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he had letters not
only from a holesale but also from retail dealers, stat-
ing that in consequence of the Treasury order which
the Right Hun. Gentleman persisted in maintaining,
they were unable to cope with the unfair trader. The
extent to which the adulteration was practised was evi-
dent from a comparison of the quantity entered for home
consumption in the present and the past year. In the
quarter ending April last there was an increase of im-
portation, the amount being 4,236,9991 b., while in the
corresponding quarter last year it was only 3,659,5261b5.
The consumption. however, decreased for while in 1849
it was 9,386,2551b5., in 1850 it only amounted to
7,465,3841b5. Notwithstanding this, there was no doubt
that the consumption of the article called coffee had gone
on increasing. What was the case with the revenue de-
rived from tobacco? It had gone on increasing for some
years past, and still continued to increase, because the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had pursued in that case,
and to this day continued to pursue, the very course
which he refused to adopt in the case of coffee; he had
taken steps to prevent its adulteration. The decreasing
number of prosecutions, and the increasing revenue,
showed that the system had proved effectual in checking
the illicit trade. He did not ask the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to bring in a Bill to give effect to the law. He
asked him only not to stand in the way of the execution
of the law. He asked him to listen to the representations
from the merchants and traders of London and Liver-
pool, and other places, and from all those interested in
growing coffee, and to revoke the Treasury order. He
asked him not to prevent, but rather to direct the Com-
missioners to execute the law established by the 43d
Geo. 111. and 3d Geo. IV.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was not disposed to deny that the facts stated by the
Lion, and Learned Gentleman were, to a great extent,
true. Beyond doubt the consumption of coffee had fallen
off, and there had been an increase in the revenue to a
cert in extent; and it was equally true that coffee was
mixed with chicory and other articles. But it might be
queetioeed whether that falling off in the consumption
was owing to the admixture of chicory. He had very
great doubts on the subject. Tee fact was that several
other articles had entered into the consumption of the
IL-0/A°. The great reduction which had taken place in
Oa, price of teas of ordinary character must not be lost
sight of. There were two grounds on which Parliament
might justify such an interference as that proposed by
the lion. and Learned Gentleman—first, when the adul-
teration was ealcul,t d to injure the, revenue ; and,
secondly, when it was likely to prove prejudicial to the
public health. Now the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
probably, might not like the admixture of chicory with
coffee, he did not like it himself, but he never heard that
it was prejudicial to health. It was remarkable that,
while many memorials had been presented on the sub-
ject by the sellers and growers of coffee, he had
heard of none on the part of the consumers. The lion.
and Learned Member had also mentioned other mate-
rials used in adulterating coffee, and amongst them peas
and beans; but he certainly had never heard that either
were unwholesome food. Measures to prevent the adul-
teration of tea were justifiable, because it was known
that the spurious material introduced was sloe-leaves
dried on copper-plates, which was deleterious. Tobacco,
again, was an instance in which the Legislature thought
it necessary to prohibit adulteration, on grounds of re-
venue. The present, however, was a case in which the
public must decide for itself, and if the dealer sold a bad
article he must pay the penalty of losing his customers.
He had on former occasions read letters to the House,
which he would not again weary them with, which
showed that a certain admixture of chicory with coffee
promoted the sale of the article. In declining to ac-
cede to the motion of the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman he had tho authority of precedent, and
was merely following the example set by three
or four of his predecessors. He had received a
deputation from Manchester of gentlemen interested
in putting down the sale of chicory, and what was
their statement ? They said that the price of
the cheapest coffee sold in the berry in Manchester was
4d., while ground coffee, which one would think
should cost more, was sold at is. a pound, which made
it clear that the price paid by the mass of the people
was below that at which pure coffee could be sold. The
proposition for levying an excise duty on chicory grown
in this country might perhaps be a fairer proposition;
but the subject had been carefully considered, and it was
known that the opposition to an excise duty would bo so
great that it was not thought expedient to attempt it.
Then came the question, whether he had put in force
the 43d George 111. and 3d George IV., and in con-
nexion with that point he must remind the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that these enactments were not
intended simply to prevent adulterations, but to pre-
vent such adulterations as were calculated to affect the
revenue. The mere suspension of the Treasury order
would have no effect. Was he, then, to undertake a
crusade against all the sellers of coffee, and send ex-
cise officers to their shops to endeavour to learn whether
they mixed it or not? This was rather a serious
request to make, and he had a very strong suspicion that
if ho were to act on the lion. and Learned Gentleman's
suggestion, and institute such a system ofdomiciliary visits,
in the course of the next month the House would be
inundated with petitions. But this was not all. It
would be exceedingly difficult to prove the fact of the
mixture, and no one knew better than the lion. and
Learned Gentleman how imprudent it was to undertake
prosecutions upon insufficient evidence. He had asked
the officers of inland revenue whether any ready means
existed of detecting these adulterations, and the answer
was, that neither by chemistry or any other way could
they ascertain with any degree of accuracy whether
chicory was mixed with the coffee or not. Informations
might be laid, but the result would be nothing but vexa-
tion, without any practical result. With regard to the
question of reducing the duty on coffee, he could only
repeat what he had already stated on a former occasion,
that he must decline to enter into any engagement as
to what articles might be the subject of future reduction.
Mr. CARDWELL said, without asking the Govern-
ment to adopt the course proposed by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Youghal, there could be no doubt
that the present state of the coffee trade might very pro-
perly form the subject of discussion in that House.
Seeing that the consumption had decreased since 1848
from nearly 10,000,0001b5. to 7,500,0001b5., it was not
surprising that the coffee trade should feel anxious to
represent their case to the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman had ob-
served that no memorials had been presented from the
consumers, and that caveat emptor was the principle to
be applied to this case. That implied that if purchasers
were on the alert the evil would not exist. I; there-
fore, the evil did exist, it was clear that the purchasers
were not alive to it, or they would either have purchased
their coffee in the bean, or applied to the Right Hon.
Gentleman. What they complained of was, that chicory
and other substances should be consumed as coffee—
that the dealers traded upon
the ignorance of the
poor, and sold them another article instead of the one
they asked for. lie had been informed by a gentleman
who was well acquainted with the subject, that the
scale of adulteration usually adopted was that coffee sold
at Is. per lb contained three parts chicory and one part
coffee; that sold at Is. 4d. contained five parts chicory
and three parts coffee in eight parts; and coffee at Is.
Bd. per lb contained equal parts of each. He thought
Ithat was a very undesirable state of things, and three
remedies were suggested. One was the placing PA ex-

E SUN,

else duty upon chicory; that wes c)risith red. objection.
able. The next was one that the Right lion. Geetle-
man had wry properly alluded to with ceuti.,e, t',o
giv;ng a stimulus to the consutep ion of ceffee i y ►'.'-
ducing the duty. That he hoped the Right Hon.
Gentleman wculd shortly have it in his power to adopt,
although he would not give any pledge on the, subject.
The course suggested by the debate was, whether the
Right Honourable Gentleman was disposed to give
to the Act of Parliament an interpretation which he
was right in saying it did not originally bear;
these powers were, he believed, given not
protect the public, but the revenue ; but the
fair trader said, " I am in the same interest as the re-
venue, and I call upen you to exercise its powers in my
behalf." The Right lion. Gentleman had very properly
said that the sending an Excise officer into every coffee-
dealer's establishment would be attended with very great
difficulty and objection. Favouritism would come into
play, and it would bo found that one fraudulent trader
was overlooked while another was prosecuted. The 1
views he took of the question were entertained by the
Chamber of Commerce of Liverpool, whose sympathies
were altogether with the coffee dealers; but they did
not think it expedient to petition Parliament f•r ►he
adoption of the remedy no•w under consideration—they
thought with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that it would
be exceedingly difficult to give the proposition practical
effect, and that its result would ultimately be to drive
the trade into the hands of the systematically fraudulent
traders. In the justice of these opinion ho was entirely
disposed to concur, and he was not surprised that the
Right Hon. Gentleman should withhold his concurrence
from the proposition. He hoped, however, the subject
would receive the consideration of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, and that he would be able to devise some means
of redressing the grievance which was now very gene-
rally complained of.
Mr. MOFFAT2 said the interest; cf the coffee-pro-
ducers bad been altogether lost sight of. The Right
lion. Gentleman said the colonial producers were pro-
tected by a duty of 2d. a lb. against the foreign pro-
ducers, but that was only true up to the last five years,
and now there was no real protection to the colonial
growers. He thought the statement of the Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Liverpool must have convinced
the Right Hon. Gentleman that the large consumption
of chicory naturally influenced the consumption of coffee.
He believed that of the 10,000 vendors of coffee in the
country, at least 9,500 mixed chicory with it. He trusted
when the question was being considered by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, that the interests of the pro-
ducers would receive due attention.
Colonel THOMPSON suggested that the way to avoid
purchasing chicory for coffee was to buy it uuground.
Mr. ANSTEY would not trouble the House to divide
upon the question.
The motion was negatived without a division.
MANNING THE NAVY.
_

On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair.
Captain tIARRIS, who was very indistinctly heard
in the gallery, called the attention of the House to the
necessity of devising some means of manning the royal
navy in time of war. Mr. Ward had stated in his evi-
dence that the number of men required for the manning
of the navy in 1848, including ships in commission,
ships in ordinary, and in progress of completion on the
stocks, was 112,000 officers, men, marine?, and boys. Of
these 76,000 were petty officers and seamen The ques-
tion was, what facilities were there, under the existing

laws, for obtaining that supply? The Act sth and 6th
Win. IV. asserted the right of the Crown to the ser-
vices of every seaman in time of war for a period of five
years, and provided that a certain sum as bounty should
be given to volunteers. It was found, however, that
that was insufficient, and other powers were had recourse
to—namely, impressment. He (Captain Harris) had ma-
turely considered the question fur several years, and hai
lost no opportunity of submitting his views to the House.
He had arrived at the conclusion that the best and
the frankest way of dealing with the subject was also
the wisest, and that the system of impressment acted
injuriously for the interests of the service and the coun-
try. He was ready to recognise the prerogative of the
Crown, and.he believed the mercantile service was also
ready to contribute to the service of the Government
and the support of that navy on which its own exist-
ence depended. The effect of the impressment was to
drive thousands of their best seamen into foreign ser-
vice. He doubted whether, in the event of another war

breaking out, they would be able to impress as they
had formerly done—the opinion of the whole country
would be against them. The plan he begged to sub•
mit, and which would of course be much more effi-
ciently carried out by the Board of Admiralty than by
any other parties, was that of recognising the right of
the Crown to the services of all seafaring men in time
of war for a limited period of service, depending on the
nature of the war and its probable duration. Every
seaman in the merchant service would be bound to
serve during the period the proclamation of the Crown
was in force. After that limited period of service the
seamen should obtain a protection, and the best ma-
chinery for calling into requisition the services of these
men would be the ballot; and the registering of seamen
would form the groundwork from which the selections
would be made. He proposed that the seamen should
have tickets granted them, which it would be necessary
for them to produce when called upon. As the Govern-
ment had recently expressed its determination to give a
grant of 30,000/. to the Merchant Seamen's Fund, he an-
ticipated that there would be every disposition on their
part to promote the views of the Government. He pro-
posed that the ballot should be taken four times in the
year, and there should be arrangements at the stations
abroad by which the commanding officers of the ships
requiring men would be supplied. He anticipated that
there would be no difficulty in that way of raising
25,000 men, and he calculated the number of volunteers
at 20,000 more. Ho did not think, taking into account
what had been recently done, that much more was re-
quired to make the royal navy a popular service. Both
the present and former Boards of Admiralty had done
all in their power to promote the comfort of the men.

Much had bcea don; since 1792 in increasing tho
quantity and providing a better quality of provi-
sions, and abolishing the two h inyan-days in
each week, when the men went without meat. They had
also got a supply of fresh meat and vegetables, whenever
it was practicable, and the best medical attendance.
They had also obtained more accommodation bAween

decks, and the able-bodied seamen had bad an increase
of about 4s. 61 per month in their pay since 1797.
They had also now got an allowance of one-third of their
pay while abroad, while in former times they could get
no money when on a foreign station. Another great
advantage was the diminution of corporal punishment in
the royal navy. At the same time it was well known
that even in times of peace it was difficult to man the
navy, and he had himself seen line-of-battle ships lying
at Spithead and obliged to go to sea without the full
complement of men. It was also well known that
many of their best seamen went into foreign service—
more especially the American. It was said that the
men were better off in that service, but he did not think
that opinion was well founded. He found that the
following was the scale of provisions in both services
—the British seaman received llb. biscuit, the American
seaman 2 oz. more ; the British seaman j pint
spirits, the American the same; the former lib. fresh
beef, the latter lilts.; of sugar the British seaman
bad 1 oz., and the American seaman 2 oz. ; the other
articles supplied were pretty much the same. In salt
meat the American seaman had certainly the advantage,
and he wished the Admiralty would increase the allow-
ance of salt meat from ills, to lib., as there was a con-
siderable loss in the boiling of salt meat. With that
exception there was, in the article of provisions, no sub-
stantial difference between the two. Whea they came
to wages, there certainly was a difference. The British
warrant-officers, first-class, had 901. per annum, and the
American. 140/. ; the second class, 751., and the second
class in the American service, 1201. ; the third class in
the British service, 611, and in the American, 105/. ;
the British first class petty officers had 21. 12s. per
month, the American, 41. to 3/. 15s. ; second class Bri-
tish, 21. Bs. 9d., American, 3/. 2s. 6d.; able seamen
(British), 11. 16s. Bd., American, 21. 10s. ; marina
(British), 11. Bs. 2d., American, 21. ls. ad. ; landsmen
(British), 11. ss. ; American, 11.175. 6d. Then, on the
other hand, the American seaman had no pension for
long service, although he bad for wounds. In the British
service there was a pension of sod. per day, or 131. per
annum, paid in whatever part of the kingdom he re-
sided. Should he continuo in the service he received his
pension in addition to his pay. He would take the
liberty of suggesting to the Government the policy of
increasing the wages of the British seaman to some mo-
derate amount. He thought the first-class petty officers
ought to be increased to 31. per month, the second to
2/. 10s., and the able seamen to 21., and the others in the
same proportion. He suggested also the propriety of
restoring the pension to the widows of warrant officers,
as he considered the doing away with it a very harsh
measure. The Hon. and Gallant Gentleman concluded
by submitting his proposition to the consideration of the
Government.

Captain BERKELEY complimented the Hon. Gen-
tleman on the manner in which he had brought for-
ward his motion, and could assure him that not only
the present biit preceding Boards of Admiralty had
taken up the question in a proper spirit. He
was, further, proud to say that the men had now no
occasion to go back to the merchant service, as on being
paid off they had six weeks' leave of absence, and could
then return and join any ship they thought proper.
With regard to not being able to man the navy, he
could assure the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman that the
board had taken the greatest pains to hive a reserve in
hand. Further, he was happy to say, as regarded the
men themselves, that they were proud and happy to serve
in the royal nary; and, as regarded the question of im-
pressment, he found that there was only one petition pre.
sented against it, and that was in 1760. In that petition
it was said that although they objected to impressment,
yet, if it was found to be indispensable to maintaining
the efficiency of the royal navy, they would submit to it
without a murmur. He was no advocato for impress-
ment exeept in cases of very great necessity, but he
thought it would be unwise to deprive the Government
of the power of resorting to this system if they deemed
it necessary to do so. He believed that the seamen
themselves, under extreme circumstances, would not be
unwilling to submit to this system.
The motion was then withdrawn.
EXPENSES OF COMMISSIONS.
Mr. J. STUART, in rising to call the attention of the
House to the return No. 669, of 1848, of the number of
Commissions of Inquiry appointed since 1830, and the
expenses of each, said that the exigencies of the orders
of the House required that not only the expenses gene-
rally should be stated in these returns, but those also
which related to all incidental matters connected with

the immediate subject referred to, as far as could be ob-
tained. It appeared that no fewer than 91 commissions
of inquiry had been issued by successive Governments
between the years 1830 and 1848. According to the re-
turns that had been laid before the House the expense
to the country, of those commissions of inquiry amounted
to 638,0001. By reference to documents much more
authentic than these returns, he was sorry to say, they
had the most satisfactory evidence from individuals exck.

F° IT) A Y

mined before Committees of this House, to show that
this sum Se Lis not one-fou' th of the exoense to which the
country ha I been put by those Commissions. According
to the return which he held in his hand, and which ,res
printed in the vacation of 1848, this statement was
fully corroborated. Let them take, for example, one
commission, which was the tidal harbour commission.
The expense of that commission, as it appeared by the
return, was 1,7791., but he found by the report of the
committee upon iniscellexeous expenses, that for print-
ing alone, during the limited period of three years, the
sum was 5,1171. When they found this to be the case,
what value could they place upon the statements con-
tained in returns of this kind ? Another commission
was issued in 1845, called " the Metropolitan Railway
Termini Commission." The return set down the ex•
pease of that commission at the modest sum of 5021.
But the report of the committee on miscellaneous ex-
penditure stated that the printing of this commission for
two years amounted to 2,8571. There was a gross de-
gree of carelessness evinced by these returns, which should
not be passed over without the marked notice of the
House. The result of the whole of this report showed that
the country had been put to an expense above 2,000,000 L
by these commissions of inquiry. One of the witnenes
examine 1, a gentleman of greet experience on the
subject, stated that these 91 commissions of inquiry.
since 1830, were one great cause of the immense increase
of the expenses for p, inting, and he added this remark-
able statement, that the sanitary comtnission was likely
to entail an expense
about 60,000/. upon th© country fur printing of
Colonel SIBTHORP said he had taken a great deal of
trouble to procure accurate informasi....o upon the subject
by moving for certain returns with very little effect. He
concurred with the Hon. and Learnel Member in think-
ing that there were great inaccuracies in these returns
which Lai boon laid before them. Indeed, nothing could
be more inaccurate, unfair,.and unsatisfactory, than the
returns of the expenses Oahe commissions since 1830.
Sir F. BARING apologised for the absence of his Hon.
Friends connected with the Treasury, who were not
aware that this subject would be brought under the con-
sideration of the House at so early an hour of the night.
He apprehended that the gravamen of the offence was
the expense of printing not being included in these
returns.
Mr. STUART—Yee ; stationery and clerks also.
Sir F. BARING was afraid, in the absence of his
Hon. Friends, he would not be able to go into details. He
should have understood, by the order of the House, that
the expenser a l
was no separate account kept fur stationery; there was
a general
e
was not to be included. There
printing and stationery. He was,
ne
estimateo f printing
for
however, informed that regulations had been recently
in conjunction with the Home
was intended to include in such
returns issued
Department,b
tyh et e
by
expensesTwrehascuh r yi
,of f printing,. If the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman would direct attention to the subject
when the officers connected with the Treasury were
present, he would no doubt receive every satisfaction on
the subject.
SUPPLY.—NAVAL ESTIMATES.

The House then went into Committee of supply; Mr.
BERNAL 'in the chair.
Sir F. BARING said that the supplemental expenses
under different beads, now put into the hands of the
chairman, included the original estimates as wall as the
supplemental. The first vote proposed was 883,999/,
for the deficiency in naval stores, for building machinery
in steamers, and for the bedding of vessels placed under
the command of Captain Austin.
Mr. COBDEN regretted the absence of the Hon.
Member for Montrose on the present occasion, as he
knew that that Hon. Member had prepared a statement
in reference to these stores, and had given notice of an
amendment to this vote. He complained of the custom
adopted by the Government of proposing the heaviest
votes on the first day the House met after the holidays.
This was an inconvenient course, and ought to be put a
stop to. The practice of the Committees above stairs
was altogether different, for, considering it unlikely that
Hon. Members would be back so soon after the holidays
they adjourned until Monday next. This was also the
would not persevere in this course.
case in respect to the Easter holidays. He hoped that
ELL asked whether this was a thesupple-
mentary s Government oGv e rrn
Em
ce nllt
vote, or whether they were proceeding from
where they had left off ?
Mr. BERNAL said that the vote was taken from
where they had left off.
Sir G. PECHELL said he was satisfied that not one-
half of the vessels now in ordinary would ever be of the
slightest use to them, and he would recommend that the
smaller class should be put up to auction and sold. In
many cases the building of vessels was considerably less
than in the public yards ; for instance, the Water
Witch, one of the most effective ships on the coast of
Africa, was purchased at the rate of 12/. a ton, when the
other vessels of the same class were built at an expense
of 201. a ton. He complained of the enormous expendi-
ture of coals in the navy steamers. Ho was told that by
a due economy there might be a saving of 201. a day in
each port.
Sir F. BARING remarked that Members could not
complain of being taken by surprise, when the Govern-
ment determined upon proceeding with the estimates
that night. There was a large attendance of Members
at five o'clock. When the Honourable and Gallant Offi-
cer complained of the expenditure of its stores, he should
have mentioned that there had been a reduction in
that item this year of 390,0001., and upon coals the re-
duction had been 54,000/. As to the Water Witch it
had been purchased at second hand, which was a very
different thing from the cost of a vessel as originally
built.

Sir G. PECLIELL explained. He gave credit to the
Government for having made large reductions.
Mr. FITZROY asked upon what ground the reduc-
don in the expenditure of coals had been made ?

Sir F. BARING replica that it had been made by the
diminution in the expenditure, and the reduction in the
price of coals.
Mr. DISRAELI did not agree in the recommendation
of the Hon. Member for the West Riding that Ministers
Mould not proceed with important business the first day
after the holidays. lie would not recommend that the
motion of which notice had been given should be post-
poned, because there was a possibility of its being car-
tied; whereas it would not be so if the Financial Refor-
mers were present.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. MANNERS hoped the motion would be pro-
ceeded with, as they would thereby be spared another
night.
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote was 339,8391. for the improvement and
repair of naval establishments.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH proposed to stop the works
at Keyhatn and at Brill Point, and therefore moved to
reduce the vote by 140,0004
Sir F. BARING did not consider it necessary to enter
into a detail of the works at Keyham. The Committee
had recommended that they should be proceeded with
gradually,and in conformity with the engagements which
the Government had formed. He thought it would be
very unwise in the Government to abandon works that
had cost half-e•million, and which, in case of war, would
be very useful.
Mr. PETO did not think that the Government ought
to stop the works in hand. They ought to expend the
money, and stop there.
Mr. COBDEN said the basins were only intended
to be joined to the factories for the purpose of re-
pairing boilers, and putting in machinery; but no
private builder found it necessary to have such a
basin, and he could not see what necessity the state
had for such magnificent establishments. In voting
this 120,000/, they were only advancing a step to-
wards the completion of the establishment. The opinion
of the Committee, who had reported on the subject, was
that if those works were for the first time now proposed,
it would never advise the House to sanction them. But
when those basins were finished there would be required
not less than 80,0004 for wages for artificers, and, in
addition,. 30 per cent, or 40 per cent. for incidental
charges. The question then was, whether they would
stop where they were, or whether they would make up
their mind to incur an expenditure in wages and charges
of 100,0001. or 120,0004 With all the basins and fac-
tories which they had at present they would be able to
repairengines and boilers of vessels to an extent of
2 00,
Sir F. T. BARING said there was not one farthing
taken in the vote either for factories or machinery, but
00 tons.
only to complete the basin. Nothing would be done in
that respect without coming to Parliament.
Admiral BOWLES regretted to find Hon. Gentlemen
opposite oppose a proposition which was of such vital
importance to the state.
Mr. MACGREGOR supported the vote.
Mr. BRIGHT did not see the necessity that there was
Private builders did not
requirefor t e proposed eosft athhlai skh
imn
de! t. '
Mr. CORRY contended that those establishments were
absolutely necessary to the safety of the country.
Mr. COBDEN repeated that it would be more
economical to have the machinery nude by _
private con-
rwin then agreed to—as was
con-
tractors.
After a desultory conversation,
Sir Sir W. MOLES WORTH, upon the assurance which
hishad
amendment, been
given b
yg, consented to withdraw
andtrhe r
also the next vote of 27,6801. for medicines and medical
stores. .voßtae as
On the vote of 175,6981. for miscellaneous services,
Mr. COBDEN said that of this 'rote he perceived that
100,000/, was for the destruction of ships of war and
piratical vessels. He should be glad if the Right Hon.
Gentleman could inform the Committee of the details of
that sum.
Sir F. T. BARING was understood to say, in reply.
that it was for head money for pirates captured and
destroyed on the coasts of Borneo and China.
Lord D. STUART expressed his astonishment at the
increase which had taken place in this vote—the amount
last year being only 20,0001. He doubted much if a
single "ship of war" had been captured or destroyed.
Sir F. T. BARING said that the whole of the trans-
actions had appeared in the newspapers, and he did not
therefore deem it necessary to detail that which all ware
probably acquainted with. If the Committee wished to
have the names of the vessels to which the prize money
would attach, he was quite prepared to read them.
Mr. COBDEN wanted to hear something about the
pirates themselves, for he doubt6d if they were pirates.
nr if the transactions were legal. The very fact of
almost the first measure of the Government this
session being a Bill to abolish those Acts
which entitled parties to head money in certain
cases for the capture of pirates, was a proof to him
that the law never applied to such cases at all. He
should like to know if the predatory tribes of Borneo
had attacked or moleited any English ship. Although
they were going to pay for the destruction of 500 of these
savages, it appeared that not one Englishman had re-
ceived a wound, or even a scratch in the encounter. The
fact was that the savage:, whilst returning to their own
rivers, were intercepted by our ships of war. No sum-
mons was given to them to surrender—no inquiry was
made where they had come from or whither they were
going, but they were fired upon, and our steam-boats ran
them down with their paddle-wheels in a ulanuer that