The Sun.
London, England, 1850-08-03 00:00:00

SUN, " LONDON,

as regarded Mr. Tidd Pratt, said it was an expression
which did net justly apply to that gentleman.
Sir J. GRALIA& observer], that until he received his
Parliamentary papers that morning, he had not the
slightest idea the vote would be brought on; and as the
evidence was not yet printed, they were under great
obligation to, the chairman of the Committee for the ex-
planation he had given. The question they had to de-
cide on was of great importance, and they were called on
`to
decide it on very insufficient facts, but .ho believed
that if the case were a just one, it should not bo a pay-
ment of 103. in the pound, but the entire sum. The vote
they were called on to give appeared to him to be an in-
correct one, for if they paid anything, they should pay
64,0001., the entire stun due. The Right Hon. Baronet
tten detailed the embarrassment of the Cuffs-street
Bank in 1831, and in 1838, when they were brought
under the notice of the Commissioners of the National
Debt; and also id 1845, and in 1848, when the Lank
was ,closed altogether. If all these things could be sub-
.stantiated, is was a case not of charity; but of equity;
but, with thg evidence they had before them, he was not
prepared to exprese a 'decided opinion on the subject.
The chairman of the Committee had stated that the de-
positors bad no claim either in law or equity.
Mr. REYNOLDS—Not equity; the word equity was
not named.
Sir J. GRA.HAM—The chairman certainly used the
word Equity, and if that were so, if it were for cornpas-
Isign or sympathy, then what claim had the Cuffe-street
Savings Bank above Tralee or- Killarney, or Rochdale,
or the other parts, of England where failures in savings
banks took place. At that late, period of the session it
was inexpedient, in his opinion, to press that vote, be-
cause, if they put it off until next session, they would
then have time to consider the whole subject, and to
legislate upon it, so as to protect fir the future the
working clasSes of this country.,
Colonel DUNNE said that no further evidence could
be taken, and he therefore saw no reason whatever for
postponing the vote until next session.
Lord CLAUD HAMILTON felt bound, meth° part
of the 600 depositors, to return his-sincere thanks to the
chairman of the Committee for the great care he evinced
on their behalf. With regard to what had been said of
the mismanagement of the trustees of these banks), the
Commissioners of the National Debt knew it, and yet
allowed them to go on year by year, from 1831 to 1845.
To that monstrous injnstico he begged seriously to call
the attention of the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment, and to impress upon him the wrong and injus-
tice done to so many thousands of their suffering poor.
If the trustees neglected their duty—and they did so
grossly--the example was set them by those who should
have set them a better example, namely, the Commis-
sioners for the Reduction of the National Debt. He
called in two boys of the age of fifteen as arbitrators.
Ho instructed these sham arbitrators to disagree and
call him in. • He was called in, and confined him-
self only to giving advice. If a man was called
in he had no right to give rimy advice till he had
made himself master of the subject, which he could
not have done, as it is said that he did not feel him-
self authorised to investigate the affairs of the bank.
Mr. Tidd Pratt had, under these circumstonces, recom-
mended the bank to be kept open.' The Chancellor of
the Exchequer, with his usual eloquence, did his utmost
to prevent the case being made public.—(Divide.) It
was creditable to the Right Hon. Gentleman that ho had
not allowed his former opposition to obscure his tease
of justice.—(The noise in the House, and the calls for a
division were so loud as to render the Noble Lord in-
audible.)
Mr. GROGAN said he thought the case so strong,
and it had been so fully argued, that he tli4ight_the vote
should at once be agreed to. If they2pestponed the
question for fuller investigation, much. suffering, _priva-
tion, and misery, would be felt by the' unfortunate de-
positors.
Mr. HENLEY said they were asked to give the
money, without the Government laying down ono single
principle in reference to it. They were not told whether
it was charity or justice. It was clear, from the report,
there was no legal or equitable claim. If that were
so, he thought six hours' consideration insufficient. If

it Isere charity, he had no objection. If it were a claim
of justice, they should pay in full. But, under the cir-
cumstances sti.ted in the report, and upon the statement
of the Right Ron. Gentleman, without further considera-

tion he should be compelled to oppose the vote.
Mr. BROTHERTON said there was neither a legal
nor equitable claim upon the Government. The trustees
of theso banks had declined to act upon the advice of
the Commissioners of the National Debt, to close the
bank. They -had, thertfore, no just claim, and he
should feel great difficulty in supporting it. If they
made a grant to any bank, they must make it to all.
Mr. MORRIS said he should support the vote, and
hoped that dm grants would be extended to Wales.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said that this was
not only an English, but it was an Irish, question. He
put the claim as one of justice and equity. He did not
pretend there was a legal claim. Tho poor depositors
were destitute of any means of redress. He thought
the whole defalcation ought to be made good by the
Government.

Mr. BRIGHT said, that the case of the Cuffs-street
bank was of a peculiar nature, and if the circumstances
of the failure of the bank in Rochdale were similar
he should .feel himself justified in applying to the
Government for the whole deficit. The Commissioners
of the National Debt had actually connived at the
insolvency of the bank. During two years no reports
came from that bank to the office of the National Debt.
Some of the gentlemen in that office must have been
actually cognizant of the frauds committed in that
bank. They must have known that it must be
failure, and that they must eventually come to the Go-
vernment. There was no charity in it. The claim,
considering the gross neglect of the trustees and the
Government, was one of justice. The depositors in the
Rochdale Bank had been paid 12s. in the pound by
the trustees and from various sources, and they had
given a release to the trustees. If the existing law was
altered, he had told the Chanceller of the Exchequer
that he would vote for making good the deficiencies.
But then there was no efficient audit or- control. The
Cuffe-street bank stood upon different grounds to all
other banks. If hu was called upon to vote for the pay-
ment of the whole 64,0004 he should feel himself com-
pelled to vote for it.
The CHANCEELOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the case of the Rochdale Bank was aescribed as
one of pure sympathy, and it was the same with all the
other banks. That did not constitute any claim upon
the Government. But the Cairo-street bank was dif-
ferently situated, and so the Committee thought. The
distinction between that and all others was that the
knowledge of the deficiency was laid befor the Commis-
sioners torlhe Reduction of the National Debt, which
was in fact the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day,
and for valid reasons, as was then thought, it was deemed
not advisable to take a step which would have led to the
winding up of the whole affair. Judging cx post facto,
he thought that a mistake had been made, sad as that
mistake had been made from a consideration of the pub-
lic interest, to avoid increasing the panic, that bank had
a kind of claim upon the public, but whether it was one
of sympathy, of equity, or of charity, he could not pre-
cisely say. He could not draw a distinct line, but he
thought the circumstances constituted a claim, and if he
spoke for six hours he could not make the case clearer.
That was not the ease with any other bank, and he
thought he need not say a word more.
Mr. NAPIER said the case of the Cuffs-street bank
was not one of charity or sympathy. It was not a mere
mistake in the Commissioners for the Reduction of the
National Debt, but it was a positive neglect of duty on
their part. The depositors had the security of the local
trustees and the Government. The statute requited them
to publish the affairs of the bank, and they tad not done
so, and if by renson of that neglect, which
was resolved
upon on grounds of public policy, as exposure would
have increased the public panic, there, was a claim both
in law and justice.
The gallery was then cleareds and the Committee
divided, when there appeared
For the vote ...
••• ••• 118
Against it ... 39
Majority „ —79
sumed. _
The vote was then 'agreed to, and the House re-

Mr. o
BEv Rt dsA brought up the report on supply (re-
maining on civil service), which was agreed to.
- WAYS AND MEANS.
The Hescsie then resolved itself into a Committee of
ways armed means, and several votes for the service of the
y ear having been agreed to, the House resumed.
The Customs Bill was read a second time.
The Marlborough House Bill was read a second time.
-INSPECTION. OF COAL MINES.
Sir G. GREY moved the second reading of the Coal
Mines Inspection Bill. The necessity for such a measure
had been universally admitted, the Bill bad received
much consideration in the other House, in which there
were large coal-mine proprietors; and he had also re-
ceived statements from the most important coal miners
in various parts of the country, approving of the Bill in
its present shape. Under these circumstances he would
not detain the House by, any lengthened observations,
but content himself by moving the second reading.
Mr. DISRAELI was somewhat surprised at the state-
ment of the Secreiary for the Home Department as to
the feelings of the owners of coal mines with respect to
this Bill. On the contrary, he had received statementsmoostthees measure.ltela'iivee coal
proprietors
The Right
fromob t
isnogm e s t
ro h
of n
gt
lye
to
Honourable Gentleman must also have been /nisi"
formed as to the reception of the Bill in the other
House of Parliament. It enec luntered a very determined
opposition, and gave rise to a long debate, though from
certain-circumstances no divis ion took place. The Bill
was a most hasty and precipitate piece of legislation
upon a most important subjects Whatever might bo the
opinion of Hon. Members e a to the propriety of inter-
fering with the employment of capital, a question he was
not indisposed to entertain upon sufficient grounds, it
would be admittedithat:they should clearly see the nature
and extent of the proposed interference. Ho thought
that if, at this late period.nf thi session, the Right Hon.
Gentleman would postponelegi.ilation on. the subject till
next session, and then introduce. a pill 'aimself, it would
be far more satisfactory- to ma parties than the present
Mr. HUTT, being', connected with, measure.
the suggestions sit? the Hon ilea- bh, the north
Eng-
land, .h
• Buckingham
nniial
la. t i oloise from
should ex
likesteEs
to , (Ted that the Seeretasy of 6', ate would not listen
er
shire. The Hon. 31 •
,m.ve oer said ~ba had received commu-
to nications Hers in opposition to the
who they were, because
he had indivichially receive
fectiy unobj(etic,able. t atatnments from the most
ITetpilrt%lat coal-owners in vtat:
Lill as amended was per-
conlveted,
btailag
that
thoe c lists-let with which he was
this Bill into a law this
Hon uwatienian
would 11
siists:Alf,otrhetrheifsorme,eathsuerletiwgahst
eisves; ; w.ere lost yearly from
year.
Mr. AVYLD said, the enaresr:
shown by the inct, that 2,000 I
proof of his as.
or .triPlitlite.) ho‘uVrhoaft
the defeelive ventilation in tIA
sss night, he. would produoyi3tam
be said was true, and if it syss nt9; flies!inines