The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-12 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 12, 1850,

them, and they are hereby empowered to raise thy
tucine requiri:d to d4ray the expoase, of p,i)vidium the
sAinse. on rbe j.unt P,,..cority of the fees to 4. ise to th-fn
from :itch burt,l-g:..outitis or c.•meteries Lin,l 0,, poor rm.',
of each parish respectiveiy, in such manner as sit
vestrif.- may deem expedient.

, -- --
Mr. T. DUNCOkthE was opposed. to the principle of'
Chi, clause. He cootentled that by it, the House we.
called upon to tr,inrfrr a privilege which wa4 vuitimitted
to it by toe people, and which it could n,,t, imp Art to any
other body. He would ask what precedent was there
for such a demand? He should oppose the clause in
every possible rnanuer.
Mr. STANFORD gave notice that he should move,
instead of the rate nut exceeding one penny, it should nut
exceed oue halfpenny in the pound.
Sir G. PECHELL opposed she clause altogethei,
either with a teliny or a halfpenny.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND wished to know what
the Hit4ht Hon. Gentleman meant to do with the city or
London, No county rate aat levied there at all.

Sir GEORGE GREY said, if the fees did not satisfy
the expenses then they would revert to the provision of
a parochial representative board, for the purpose of
levying a rate, instead of that central system, which the
Bill cout' mplated. He hoped the Committee would
a4ree to the principle of the clause.
Mr. STANFORD thought the House could not do
better than limit the sum to the minimum amount.
Mr. WYLD said that the inhabitants of the metro-
polis objected to the imposition of a rate of any form or
kind, inasrcuch us they were composed of persons of
mixed creeds, and the purpose for which this rate was
intended to be levied was the building of chapels in
connexion with the Church of England.—(Hear, hear.)
Alter a few words from Sir B. HALL and Mr. LACY,

Mr. STANFORD withdrew his amendment.
Lord DUNCAN proposed that the words " one
penny" should be struck out.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the proviso
Against it 100

Majority —64
The proviso was consequently rejected.
Lord D. STUART said he was entirely opposed to
the principle of the clause, and hoped the House would
not give an unconditional power to an irresponsible body
on the flimsy promise held out by the Government that
the rate might not be required.
Mr. WAKLEY said this clause had produced the
greatest hostility to the Bill out of doors, and if it wore
agreed to ho was certain the measure would result in
general discontent on the part of the metropolis. At
the same time, he readily admitted that it was perfectly
absurd for the House to impose certain obligations on the
Board of Health, and not give the Board the means
of carrying them out; but in the early part of this dis-
cussion the Noble Lord at the head of the Board stated
his opinion, which was no doubt founded upon official
inquiry, that the rate would not be required. Well,
then, what he wished to submit to the Committee was,
the propriety of postponing the consideration of this
clause till a future period.—(Hear, hear.) His
opinion was that it ought to be put off till next session.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) In six or seven months from this
time another session would be held, and as the pro-
ceedings of the board in that space could not be very
extensive, or of a costly character, what earthly ob-
jection could there be in postponing the clause
till it had been ascertained that the tax was
absolutely necessary ?—(Hear, hear.) If in the mean-
while the Board discovered that it could not do without
the rate, and Government came down with information
to prove it, he was quits sure the House would unani-
mously grant the power now sought by this clause.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the clause ... 93'.
Against it ... .. 37
Majority „. ... —56

The clause then agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress; and on the pro-
position that they should sit again on Friday next,
Lord D. STUART objected to proceeding with the
Bill again at a morning sitting, but hoped, if they did so,
they would sit in the old House, as it was impossible to
bear what passed. The louder they spoke the more diffi-
cult it was to hear.

The sitting of the Committee was then fixed for Fri-
:.jay, at twelve o'clock.

The Drainage and Improvement of Land Advances
Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The House then adjourned at Half•past Three to Half-
past Five.

The House resumed i❑ the Old Chamber at Half-
past Five o'clock.

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against Sunday
labour in the Post-office.

Mr. F. FRENCH presented a petition from a place
in Ireland. praying for a uniform poor-rate in Ireland.
Mr. FOX MAULE presented a petition from a place
in Scotland against the Marriage Bill.
Mr. MANGLES presented petitions from various
metropolitan districts in favour of the Bill.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD presented a petition from the
Birmingham Savings Bank against certain provisions i❑
the Savings Bank Bill.

Sir EDWARD BUXTON presented petitions from
Essex, praying for the enfranchisement of copyholds;
also a petition from Walthamstowo in favour of inter-
national arbitration.

Sir P. NUGENT presented a petition from the dis-
tillers of Longford, praying to be placed on the same
footing as colonial spirit makers.
Mr. H. HERBER. r presented a petition from Kil-
larney, praying for the repeal of the attorneys' certifi-
cate duty.
Sir GEORGE GREY presented two petitions in fa-
vour of the Government Interment Bill—one from Ma-
rylebone, and the other from Poplar.
Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition from Colches-
ter, praying for the enfanchisement of copyholds; also
a petition from a place near Cockermouth in lavour of
international arbitration.

Mr. BRIGHT presented three petitions—one from
Edinburgh, the other from Sudbury, and the last from a
public meeting held in St. Pancras, praying the House
to abolish the punishment of death.
THE FRANCHISE.
Mr. L. KING deferred his motion on the subject of
the franchise till the 9th of July.
COFFEE.

Mr. ANSTEY postponed his motion on the subject of
adulterating coffee till the 9th of July.
POSTAL COMMUNICATION WITH FRANCE.
Mr. MACKINNON postponed his motion on this
subject till the 9th of July.
LEAVE OF ABSENCE.
On the motion of Sir H. WILLOUGHBY, leave was
given to Mr. Coles, for one month, in consequence of an
accident.

POST-OFFICE.
Mr. FORSTER gave notice that on Friday be should
move for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of the
7 William IV. and 1 Victoria, cap. 36, and other Acts
now in force, for regulating the conveyance of letters by
post, as prohibit the transmission of letters on Sundays
otherwise than through the Post-office.
HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.
Mr. CHRISTY rose to ask the Secretary at War
whether he could furnish any information as to the num-
ber of pensioners who may be proceeding to Hud-
son's Bay this season, and also of those who are
at present sTationed in the Hudson's Bay territory ;
whether the Hudson's Bay Company have been em-
powered to employ these pensioners fur the enforcement
or protection of their monopoly of trade against the na-
tive or other inhabitants of the country. acid if not, what
duties it is intended they shall perform on their arrival
in that territory?
Mr. FOX MAULE said he might state, that up to
1846, the Hudson's Bay territories were without the
protection of a British force of any description; but in
1846 disturbances arose between the company and
certain parties coming, he believed, from the
United States, and it was found necessary to dispatch
a considerable body of troops there. Those troops were
kept there for nearly two years, and it was found
to be so isolated a position for her Majesty's
troops that it was determined to provide for the
protection of those territories in some other
way. It was then resolved to send out a body of pen-
sioners who, in addition to their pensions, should re-
ceive from the Hudson's Bay Company certain advan-
tages in lodging, land, and employment, for which
their services should be available exactly in the same
way as those of pensioners are made available—namely,
that they should be required to go out for 12 days withi❑
the year on drill, and that they should be obliged to turn
out for the preservation of the public peace, when called
upon by the authorities. These pensioners were 56 in
number, and the Government was about to add 20 more
within the present year.
In reply to Mr. HUME,
Mr. FOX MAULE said that the officer in command
of these pensioners had no instructions to interfere
in any way with the internal affairs of the colony.
Mr. CHRISTY asked if the pensioners were paid by
this country?

Mr. FOiC MAULE said the pensioners continued to
draw their pensions for past services, but they were not
further paid by this country.
RAMSGATE AND MARGATE HARBOURS.
Mr. MACKINNON moved for a Select Committee,
to investigate the revenue, condition, and expenditure
of Ramsgate and Margate Harbours. The Honour-
able Member stated that the trustees of Ramsgate
Harbour obtained a yearly revenue of 21,000/. by dues
on vessels, independently of 5,0001. which they
received in the shape of interest on money, making
altogether a total annual income of 26,0001., and
the whole of that sum was either spent in an extravagant
way, or on works which were altogether unnecessary.
At present the harbour would not admit vessels of more
than 350 tons, and dues amounting to several thousands
pounds were laid on vessels of larger tonnage, although
they could not enter the harbour. After alluding to the
revenue an 3 management of Margate-harbour, to which
he also attributed similar abuses, the Hon. Member
concluded by proposing that a Committee should be ap-
pointed to report on the subject.
The motion having been seconded,
Mr. MASTERMAN, as one of the trustees of Rams•
gate Harbour, justified the course which they had pur-
sued. No funds could have been administered more use-
fully and properly, and the trustees courted the most
rigid inquiry. The Act of Parliament authorised them
to have a reserve fund of 50,0001., which they were not
able to accumulate until recently. It was true that the
fund in hand now reached beyond that amount, and in
consequence the trustees had it under their serious con-
sideration to propose some alterations in the amount c,f
toll to be levied. It was their earnest desire to do every-
thing that was possible to benefit the shipping interest.
—(Hear, hear.) He could not, as an individual trustee,
state what the nature of the alteration was likely to be;
but he trusted that he had said enough to induce the
House to pause until the trustees had declared their in-
tentions on the subject.

Sir G. PECHELL thought that there never wag a
case that called for inquiry more loudly than this. lie

should, how ever, call their attention also to the harbour
of Dov-r. Every word that was said in respect to the
etek coin - eted with Itsm,,gate Harbour applied with
equal for re to Dover. which could not he called a port.
except so fir as it; had a Custom hou e to levy these
dues. He proposed to add *6 Dever" aster the word
" Rein gate."
Mr. W. FAGAN eaid that there was a large steam-
pselife, e9mpany in Cork 'fiat were greatly interested in
this qaestiou, as they suffered greatly by the dues de-
manded at some of these harbours from their vessels
weieh trailed between Liverpool and Rotterdam.
Sir F. BARING thought it was hardly fair, when
the original motion was almost wholly confined to one
harbeur, for an Hon. Member, without any notice, to
add an additional harbour to the subject of inquiry. Al-
though the matters involved might be a fit question fir
inquiry, he tle-night that the amendment of the Hon.
and Gallant Member ought to take the shape of a sub-
stantive motion. He was not going to defend the ori-
ginal arrangements connected with Ramsgate Harbour ;
but, after what had been stated by the Hen. Member
tor London,.he thoughtiit would be much more expedient
if the House would wait usitil; they saw what the trus.
tets would do in the matter. He would, tkere'ore, re,
commend the Hen. Member for Ly miegton to withdraw
his motion fur the present.
Mr. HUME thought. the Hon. Member for Lyming-
ton had made out a good case for inquiry, and he hoped
that he would persist in his motion. Looking at the
changes that had taken place in the navigation-laws, he
considered it to be the duty of the Government to re-
move as far as possible every tax that was laid upon
shipping. We might as well be without a Government
as havo a Government like the present, that did not do
their duty.

Mr. lA-OFFATT thought that any inquiry that did not
include Dover would be incomplete and unsatisfactory to
the shipping interest.

Mr. YIAOKINNON did not mean to cast the slightest
imputation upon the trustees. He believed that they
were all honourable men. He would consent to with-
draw his motion if the Hon. Member for London would
give the House a pledge that the dues would be reduced
one-half.

Mr. MASTERMAN thought it most unreasonable to
ask to give any such pledge. He had already stated
that the subject was under the serious consideration of
the trustees; and that they had evinced an earnest desire
to do every justice to the shipping interest. They had
it in contemplation to make a reduction in these dues,
but what it was to be he thought it would be indiscreet
of him at present to disclose.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. THORNELY thought that the Hon. Member for
LymingOn was entitled to their thanks for bringing
this quf stion before them.
The House then divided on the amendment of Sir G.
PECHELL, when the numbers were—
For the amendment ... 60
Against it
Maojrity against the amendment ... —ll
The House again divided upon the original :motion.
The numbers were—
For the motion 78
Against
_2..
__ ... 47

-Majority for Mr. Mackinnon's motion —3l
HOME-MADE SPIRITS.
Petitions were presented by Mr. FAG AN and other
Members in favour of the motion of the Noble Lord the
Member for Kildare, respecting the duty on home-made
spirits.
Lord NAAS moved that the House resolve itself into
Committee, to take into consideration the present mode
of levying the duty on home-made spirits. He rested
his motion upon the ground that equal justice should be
thine to the home distillers was.shown'to forpign-
di‘stillers; a; well as to the inipokters Of colooial
In levying the excise duty 'on spirits home produced,
that duty was taken upon the spirits manufactured in
the distilleries—it was taken at the worm's end. If
those spirits were then put into bond, no matter what
might be the loss upon them, the distiller would be com-
pelled to pay upon the quantity not that he took out of
bond, but on which ho was charged in the distillery.
On the other hand, the duty on foreign and colonial
spirits was levied upon the actual quantity which was
taken out of bond. In the latter case there was no loss,
and in the other case a considerable loss might be incur-
red. Thus a great injustice was done to the home trade.
—(Hear, hear.) It was that injustice he sought to have
removed by the preseut motion.—(Hear.) He knew
that he would be met in the first instance by being told
that the home spirits were protected by a differential duty
of 4d. a gallon on colonial, and of a larger duty on fo-
reign spirits. This, however, was a subject ou which
he did not wish to enter, as he knew the principle was,
that taking the ditties on the home spirits in bond
would lead to considerable frauds on the revenue. That
was the objection made by Mr. Wood on the part of
the revenue ; but it was an objection the validity of
which was denied by the distillers. It was not proposed
to prevent the duty being charged, as it was
at present, at the worm's end, and then being put into
the stores, and if any deficiency occurred when it was in
transit from the distillery to the Queen's stores the dis-
tillers were ready to pay for that difference. That they
were willing to do; but what they objected to do was to
pay duty on a loss that actually occurred whilst the ar-
ticle was in the Queen's stores—to pay for that which
was lost either through leakage or evaporation.—(Hear,
hear.) He supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman would
say that this would cause a great loss to the revenue.
W hat Mr. Wood calculated would be the loss was a half-
penny a gallon. Now he was assured by all those tie
had consulted on the- subject that so far from being a loss
this would be telt so great an advantage to the distillers
that it would lead to a great increase of production, and
that the revenue would be ultimately the gainer.—
(Hear.) In considering this subject it was to be re-
marked that the Irish distilled from malt and raw grain,
and the Scotch from malt only, and thus the article they
produced gained maturity much sooner than the Irish.
The Irish spirits did not arrive at maturity before it
had been manufactured four or five years. The
law as it now stood was a prohibition on the Irish
distiller to keep au article in the stores until it reached
maturity, and it tended also to produce a monopoly
in the spirit trade, and the fact was that all the small
distilleries in Ireland had been closed, as none now but
a man with very large capital could carry on the trade.
The whole of the spirit trade of Ireland and Scotland
was interested in this question, and as that House bad
removed restrictions from foreigners, as they were such
friends to free trade as to assist the foreigner in every
way they could, he now hoped they would aid him by
supporting his motion, in removing restrictions from a
most important branch of their home trade.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. STUART seconded the motion. He did so
at the desire of his constituents, who were greatly inte•
rested in the success of this motion, and whose wishes, as
large contributors to the revenue, were entitled to the
attention of the Government. He admitted that the
Scotch distillers did not suffer as much disadvantage
from the present regulations as the Irish distillers, and
he acknowledged that some years ago the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had made a considerable concession to
the trade in Scotland, and that it was now in a very
flourishing state. Although he wished to vote with the
Government on most occasions, he felt bound to oppose
them on the motion then before the House.

Mr. WILSON opposed the motion. The question,
he said, was not one of tree trade at all. The speech of
the Noble Lord showed that he had paid a great deal of
attention to this subject, and therefore the Noble Lord
must be perfectly conscious that the House, after ma-
ture consideration of this subject, had come to an ar-
rangement regarding it in 1848, by which they endea-
voured to place all parties on terms of perfect equality
with each other. The Noble Lord had called attention
to the tact that the duty was only charged on the colo-
nial and foreign spirits when taken out of bond, and upon
home-made spirits when manufactured in the distilleries;
but why was that distinction made? Because there
was a differential duty in favour of the home disiiller—
because the colonial spirits paid 4d. a gallon, and the
duty on foreign spirit, on brandy was 15s. a gallon, double
that paid on the home spirits—so great a difference, in
fact, that the case of the foreign spirits might be put out
of their consideration.—(Cries of " No, no.") He said that
the foreign spirits were not to be considered, when 2s. Bd.
was charged on Irish spirits, and 15s. a gallon charged
on foreign spirits. The whole case, he said, then
lay between colonial and home-made spirits; and
alter determining that colonial spirits should pay 4d. a
gallon more than home-made spirits it would be said it
was unfair to the West Indies to have that arrangement
disturbed. The duty ou the home-made spirits must be
increased, and that on our colonial spirits be diminished
to bring them both into the same .position, and to do
equal justice betweea the two parties. It was, he said,
a great boon to the home distillers to allow them to
bond their spirits the moment it was manufactured, be-
cause it was giving them a long credit on that duty. If
the motion were carried, the arrangements now made
must bo disturbed, and that to the injury of the re-
venue--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME rose to speak, but was met with such
loud cries of " Divide," that he was compelled to desist.
The gallery was ordered to be cleared amid loud
cheers from the Opposition Members, as it was manifest
those in favour of the motion were in a majority.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose
amid loud cries of " Divide." He said he could quite
well understand the impatience of Honourable Mem-
bers to divide without a debate.—(Cheers from Members
on the Opposition benches.) That was not, however,
the way of settling a point of such importance as this.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear," and " Divide.") Although it
did not appear directly, yet this was a motion like too many
others that had preceded it; namely, a motion to reduce
the revenue, and which the House had rejected. In
England, the duty on spirits was 7s. 10d.; in Scotland,
3s. Bd.; and in Ireland, 2s. Bd.; and this was a proposi-
tion to make an alteration for the benefit of a country in
which the duty paid was the lowest. Why, if a reduc-
tion were possible, the fair way would be to equalise the
duty in the three countries, to lower it in England, and
to raise it in Ireland and Scotland.—(Cries of "Oh, oh.")
As to the small distilleries being destroyed in Ireland,
that did not happen in consequence of the manner in
which the duties were collected; it was the general law
of the progress of trade; the small manufacturers there
were destroyed by the large manufacturers.. The excise
and customs duties were levied on quite different prin-
ciples.—(Hear, hear.) The whole question was dis-
cussed at great length in 1848, when the subject of the
duty on colonial spirits was before the House, and the
objection taken to the arrangement then effected was,
not that the benefit given to the colonial producer was
too touch, but on the contrary that the duty levied upon
colonial produce was too high. The Hon. Gentleman
seemed to think that great injury had been inflicted upon
the Irish and Scotch distillers us comp gyred with
the
colonial producer, by the consumption of rum being in-
creased. What was the fact? Formerly Ireland con-
sumed as much as a million gallons of rum per annum,
but before 1846 the consumption bad fallen down to
141;
:10a%ig
eo
inasna
; ands in
1188447. T
1849 it whe was not
consumptions ino f Scot-
landru
in Seetland was:—
In 1847

... ... 382,000 gallons.
..• ... 220,000

Ia 1549

In Ireland it was in 1847 .., ... 176,000 e t
It. was only 6,000 g...1.1,Es more. Tiny consumption 01
British spirits in lioglarAfin 1847 was 8,409,000 gallou?;
in 1849 It t,t-v 9 053,000 giltons; in Scotland it way
1847 6,193.000 g-r,alions; in 1849 6.935,000 gallons;
in
Irt'lad it was in 1847 6.037,000 gallons; 41 ,15,49 t
6 973,000 gallons, or 950,000 galions more. "a
ariy showed that no great injury had been inflictedf
upon the Irish or Scotch distiller by the introduction o
cA,nial spirits. The contrary was the f: ca, while the
exports of British spirits bad greatly increased.
1847 there were exported from England not- a- sing e
gallon;, in 1849 there were 73,000 gallons; and ther!
were from Scotland in 1847 66,684 gallons, and in IS4v
206,000 gallons exported, while from Ireland there were
in 1847 6.439 gallons, and in 1849 67,000 .gallons
ported—the increase beini tenfold, mid while tbil ha
got at the same time the. power of warehousing in En g,:
110, a power which they had not previously possesseo.
and of vi hick they had availed themselves to the Wein
of warehousing one-and millions of gallons since
1848. He, therwore, did not think the claims of th°3B
distillers based-on justice, and he should oppose the caotioli.
The Home divided when there appeared—
For the motion 85
Against it 53
Majority against the Government —32

The announcement was received with cheers. t,
The House then went into Committee; Ildr•
ROCHE is the chair.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE proposed a resolution to the
( ff. ct that the duty payable on British spirits taken °ed
of warehouse for home consumption should be ebsrgd,
in quantity and strength the, same as actually deliredre,
except when the spirits had not been properly arjet
cutely warehoused, and that no greater abaterneyd be
account of deficeney in quantity and strength 511°11 not
made other than for every 100 gallons in warehouse not
exceeding two months, two gallons; above two and, not
exceeding six months, three gallons ; above six and
eel
exceeding twelve months, four gallons; and for e'
succeeding six months one gallon each. said
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQw--
mat
ho would not object to the resolution at that etage•
The resolution was accordingly agreed to.
Mr. F. MACKENZIE proposed a second resolutitne
to the effect that when British sp clin°irits were taken out
bond for ships' stores or foreign exportation no otb
should be charged for deficiency in quantity or streliZee
except in the case of their not having been securel.l "
properly warehoused.
-n°t k the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
same course with respect to this resolution.
It was accordingly agreed to, er d
The House resumed, and the resolutions were order
to be reported on Friday next.
RAILWAYS IN INDIA. of
Viscount JOCELYN brought forward the n3°ll et
which he had given notice, to move for any paPers,,:rel
already laid before Parliament, referring to the goo
question of railway communication in India, t°glnte.
with copies of any correspondence which tneYe the
taken place between the home authorities en;
Madras Government in reference to the propose, 'so
way between Madras and Arcot. In bringing iris to
the motion he was not actuated by any hostile ertm. Ott
the Government. It was a question of the u"--,eat
importance to India, and he considered that the Prher-• ;
was neither an unwise nor improper time t° brio;
was
it forward when the attention of the manufacturing, '„- of
rests of this country was directed to the consideratt°'o,
the slave-grown cotton of America which mighteh,ets,
placed by the free labour produce of British tle.le
India had not kept pace with the prosperity and pro
of the other portions of the empire.. On the eat vet!
her shawl and cotton manufactures' gad been deanoo
by. the frequent unjust' neditaitill- wars cerri.ent of
there, by the effect of the find talc. 'and' by the7;otof
the means of internal communication. A Committee ie
the House was appointed to investigate the rub:lB°o
1847, and they reported that the question of intero of
communication demanded the immediate attention
re
Government, for that even where roads existed theof
were great obstacles in consequence of the "snobs
bridges. Colonel Sims, who had been engaged in of
service el the East India Company upwards of "gere'
years in opening up lines of communication in the rev
sidency of Bombay, gave, as the testimony of 11:9,,60
perience, that wherever new roads were opened, 10)
rapidly increased. The object that Ise (Viscount Pe° 'to
had in view was, to give the Right Hon. Gentlemen of
Secretary of the Board of Control an opportunitin of
stating his views with regard to the general queen7ote
railway communication in India; also with respect t°_,kbeea
railway s to which the guarantee of Government he,° froet
granted, and what were the expectations they bad
those railway lines. In 1845 Mr. Sims, who was Ito
patched to India to inquire into the alleged diffinn e.
to railway construction in the tropics, reported, in fete
junction with certain commissioners who had also u no
appointed to inquire into the matter, that there wteol.
physical difficulties to obstruct their formation. sue set
mined the propriety of the inquiry which had he!nbits
on foot as to whether railways were suited to the 'lota'
of the people, and that the formation of an exPerinin-rtb'
line from Calcutta towards the frontiers on the,llbe
west was an eligible plan. The next line for wh'° fromt
Government had given a guarantee was the line ilea
Bombay to Callian. That line, which would be 33 pp.
in length, would certainly pass through one of theb of
tricts the best adapted in all India for the groWt Es.
cotton. But it would run parallel with an excellent iltly
tem of water communication, and it could not be es
P o
petted that it would obtain a great traffic either in i-
or in passengers. Colonel Grant, of the Bombelootti
gineere, had given it as his opinion that it would ec"tbe
an unfavourable field for testing the probability o'. ea
success of railway undertakings in India. It aPPe„-rgb!
to him (Viscount Jocelyn) that their great object
..°7o,ta
to be to find out for that experiment a line which:',4lo
connect two great towns between which a considers be
traffic already existed, and such a traffic as would
likely to be diverted to some railway of easy on afoot
tion; and he believed that a line could be porn lies
which united those advantages. In the year 1645
had been proposed which would run from Madras ee'eet
the south-western portion of India, and would e°13:09
its eastern and western coasts, while it would oPe-tbet
some of the finest cotton-growing districts in, nett
country. That line would run from Madras to s'• of
through a district in which a considerable traffic eire, of
existed; and from Arcot it would pass over a ePs',,ller
72 tulles to the important town of Wallajanugger•
„let
Majesty's Government had, however, refused to Abe'
any guarantee in that case fur three reasons:--firs-o'so/,
cause the scheme had been abandoned by the 0'„70 0'
who had projected it; secondly, because the estiniied;
the cost of its construction had exceedinglY
and thirdly, because the line had not been siele'
veyed by their own engineer, Mr. 1,0!
Now, upon those points he should °"..-ojee''
that, the company had not abandoned the Pbteill
until after they had vainly endeavoured to °gbef
the support of the Government, and the bed
announced their desire to renew it as soon as tbie,; gig°
heard of the determination of the Government $0 In
their aid to the construction of railways in Ind':*es
the next place, he had to state that the differe-ceetie"
the estimates had 9 arisen from the fact that sone° P-0 if"
had proposed the line should be a mere tranew"fol be
America, while others had proposed that it e-h°„ the
constricted after the manner of the railways '5OO,
country. Then, again, with regard to the third I'ooo
which had induced the Government to decline to ;toe
the undertaking, he had to state that they hi"' Leti"
no sufficient notice of their determination to adopt "Lnbef_i
rule, and that they had given their aid to the m°01911.1
line, although that line also had not been Surber&
by their own engineer. It should be rants§ ',l
that in Bombay and in Bengal there
present an excellent water communicationvoree't
no such communication existed in ".",i 13°,i
Along the whole coast of Madras there Icis' otte
a single harbour in which ships could ride tie
there were very few means of internal oottlintlii.:4 101;
One result of that was to add greatly to the price
in Madras, and so seriously was that evil felt their'e'ert
the inhabitants were compelled to use a kind ch tbd
as a very imperfect substitute for salt. He believed.f on'
could not estimate too highly the importance ° On!
improving the internal communication of Indiflaegree.:
empire in that country extended over nearly 25 d vibes
of north latitude and 30 degrees of longitude; 1"„oett
we remember the great works of the Hindoo PrZot tit
the irrigation of that vast territory, we ought t°,ood 1".
the time had come fur England to step fOrivar.",:reBge.
construct some memorial which would tell to tbol
that she had not been unmindful of her dug tie
distant and magnificent possessions. The r4,o„,,clii*ii
concluded by moving "for an) papers not ell'stion
before Parliament, referring to the general rin°,,oiel ‘3„,
f
railway communication in India, together
lwifeeecb-e`ticieei;
any correspondence which may have taken 1344- eon'
the home authorities and the Madras Gor...,er_An-49 sDd
reference to the proposed railway between .zll3'
Arcot."
TP°6-A0
Mr. WILSON said he did not rise for the Peunt toras
refusing the assent of, her Majesty's Govern
'",e
proposal which the Noble Lord had made; enuf."-tee
did he rise for the purpose of complaining
able and temperate manner in which the
had brought the subject under their notiot''.o oarPte
But he had a few observations to offer for tuwititeh I'4
of correcting some misapprehensions int,,°,,d esid,La"ll
Noble Lord had fallen. The Noble Lord mag" toed o"`ii
hotel
during the last 50 or 60 years little progr°B-st it lte-Ano
made in the cultivation of cotton in India•
vast addelyz.
not be forgotten that during that period ft "lid of one,
had been made to the cultivation of indigo and beets
iDe
in that country. The cultivation of indigo hpnenrif Poi
troduced into India 60 or 70 years ago, and With the
whole world was at present supplied fronl2_,. 20 yew,.
valuable article. Then, again, it appeared Wags , „Jeri;
ago there had been produced but 7,000 tottn0:;01e,
while the sugar produced there at present amotti abet
ttimeson then
h tphna
under
nq
du
ea
rn
theirtit
the efforts made by the East India Company consideration, erreagt
Pari)oerunti°l;
aiordn,thoethh
Government of late years to promote the coti mop
railways in India, showed that they were far from_retweg.,
indifferent upon that subject. The Noble reoru, to the'
to the three propositions which were submitted 100,3
the immediate
om o.e bad 801 aecirshe'l;
Government. He was right in saying that Vr_.E.,nie. f
propositions for making railways for the terenaread
Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta, but he would. bee
House to believe that an undue preference 13flu_.
given
assure
ehim thatsuch
regard to twO
wasof not these
the
e
prsessei.dlenn erie7erbrins4
could
u the Calcutta line the Noble Lord seemed ty_ Doe
overlooked the fact that if they were to construct
f iailway from Calcutta to Delhi they In seen
commencement somewhere—they must make 6 voble
tiefory they could complete the whole. If the. 00
Laid telieved they were to atep at that point hi(
be
Don ‘h°s
very much mistaken, and he was equally mistaken '
supposed that they were to take the traffic a
portion of the line as evidence of whether et.
tem of railways would answer in India or nro.tb
though the direction of the line (only tows °,sthere
norch•west provinces had been agreed upon, _Y°''
the
was a point—Mieideah—placed at the junction__ to
Llooghley and the Gangeo, which would probably be

imption of
10 gallons;
I it wss in
;allon$; in
in 1549
That
inflicted
,duction of
while the
used. Ia
a_ single
and there
Id in 1649
.here were
;aliens
flea ex:
they
ig Old-
the
ossesse
extent
lions since
e of those
he motion.

.s.
Mr. E• B.

ion to the
taken out
charged
delivered,
and".
ternen-t on
should b°
,house 13°$,
ro no.
x and lllls
for over'

IIER 31113
Gage.

.esolutionof
ten °
2 n 0 dull
r stre"th d
;Loeb' isu

a took th'

re ordered

Point at which the first portion of the line would ter-
minl-,te. Le reed not remind the House that for some
time af. er the 8.11 was applied for to make a railway be
twuen Liverpool and Manchester, little or nothing was
Said of the passenger traffic—it was scarcely mentioned,
the whole reliance of the promoters being upon the goads
traffic. He would not then venture to prophecy what
would be the result in India, but he thought they would
have some grounds for anticipating a similar result. He
assured the Noble Lord that the East India Company
were perfectly disposed to extend to Madras the same
privileges as the other presidencies—it was a ques-
tion with them of time and not one of preference.
With regard to the line from Madras to Arcot, it was
necessary to consider it with reference to the general
system of railways proposed for India, and it was
doubted whether that line would amwer the require•
°lents that Mr. Sims thought desirable, or whe-
ther it would not be more advisable to have a
line more to the north-west to join the general system
Which was to he carried out from Bombay. He would
remind the House that the system on which the East
India Company had undertaken these railways was in it-
Self novel. The Company gave the land free, and gua-
ranteed to the railway companies interest upon the
capital at the rate of five per cent. for ninety-nine
bears. And at any time during that period the railway
ecopany could call upon the Indian Government to pay
for the railway at prime cost. A statement had found
kitB way into some of the Indian papers that had arrived
.13' one of the last mails to the effect that some engineer-
ing difilcultiea had been discovered with regard to the
construction of railways in India, and that they had
been abandoned altogether. That statement, it was
anhoet needless to say, was quite unfounded. He should
conclude by assuring the Noble Lord and the House
that the East India Company had already anticipated
"tit having some time since dispatched letters to the
Government of Madras, calling upon them to furnish
forthwith all the information that was required, in order
to extend the same facilities to that province as had
been afforded to the other presidencies, and no time
Would be lost in extending the same advantages and en-
cOuraFeement to it as the others.—(llear, hear.)
AGLIONBY was prepared to give his cordial
BOPport to any proposition for carrying out the benefit
of railway communication in India. He thought there
°tight to be an ex officio director sitting at the boards of
these railways, for the purpose of exercising some effi-
Cient,.. control over their management. He thanked the
Noble Lord who had so ably brought the subject before
the Rouse, because it afforded the opportunity of clear-
ing away many doubts and misconceptions that existed
°Pon the subject.
Sir E. COLEBROOKE thought the Indian public
Would be obliged to the Noble Lord for having drawn
!ittention to the subject, and was glad the Goverument
had announced that this line was only the commence-
ment of a far more extensive project which they had in
contemplation.
AIL HUME thought that a railroad from Allahabad
t° Delhi, with branches to the military stations, would
confer the greatest benefit upon India, and the saving
,Which it would effect in life, labour, military stores,
,o'ee would in a period of about five years defray the ex-
Pet uses of the construction of the railroad. He did not
t°ink it very satisfactory to hear that only 70 miles of
railway out of 400 were all that we were seeking to
amake. There ought to be a railway from Madras to
4.lcoabay. The result of such a work would be most
'important, both in a political as well as a commercial
Sir J. C. HOBIIOUSE said from his long and intimate
°Pfledge of his HonoFriend the Member for Montrose,
epaust say that it4as not easy to satisfy him on any
Veat; but he (Sir Jollobhouse) agreed:with bins in; all
said as to the importance of railways in India. He
tea exceedingly glad that the Noble Lord had brought
4e question forward ; for by his experience and his
• known attachment to India—having filled an office in the
late
~ Government that was connected with that part of
'"e world—he was most competent to speak upon the
;Picot. When the question came more fully before the
`),110, he hoped he would be able to show that the East
India Company had not slumbered at its post, nor for-
gotten what was its duty as regarded its own intereits
111 well as regarded the millions of people entrusted to
its Care, The reasons why the Madras Railway Com•
ta°Y did not receive that encouragement which the
cvernment had hitherto afforded to the other two
j4ilway companies were these. It was certainly the
e•ention of the East India Company and the India
kloard to give the Madras Company rather a
preference, if it were possible, but that company
d:'ant
of itself before we could assist it. But the
tint of encouragement to these railways generally was
attVributable to those disgraceful transactions which he
sorry to say historically stigmatised this country.—
ear, hear.) These disgraceful transactions, he re-
tretted to say, were not confined to those who might
),t be supposed to have as nice a sense of honour as
others,
but were spread amongst the educated and the
higher classes of society.—(Hear, hear.) They were to be
hadamongst that class tc which the people of England
been long accustomed to look up, not only for the
Takinga of their laws, but also for the formation of their
; ~.anners —(Hear, hear.) Such proceedings as those to
he had referred had brought discredit upon all
ways, and the failure of the efforts of the East India
:talpany, which were honestly made to carry out these
hen must be attributed to this cause. Had it not
c for the state of the money market we should have
'ad the Madras Railway carried on with the same
:Pirit as that in which the Bombay and Ben-
'ol Railway had been proceeded with. He.
)13.wever, had no doubt that at this time next
tae we shall be able to congratulate the House and
W! Country on the progress made in the Madras Rail-
I:Y. In reference to the question whether it would be
i`tter that these railways should be constructed by core-
hoalliest or upon the responsibilities of the Government,
thw would remind the Ileuse that it was very fully dis-
e'ted when the Noble Lord held office in the Board of
l°,„ttrnii in 1845. And it was then determined by the
qs'ule Lord that they should not be carried on by the
t,Pernment of India, nor by the Government at home,
t by the companies themselves that undertook these
t4elt works in India. He (Sir J. Hobhouse) thought
4t it would have been much wiser for the Government
to
fUndertake the construction of them. The advantsges
at would have accrued to them in the transport of
e1,„41 and stores, and in the traffic that would be
th;4ted along the route, would have soon compensated
ttomfor the 1,000,0001. or 2,000,0001. spent upon their
t?lruction.—(Hear, hear.) The question, however,
D4', to be considered was, how they could pro-
iaPe' encourage the companies that had already
rtaken these works. We have given them land
it,i7e have granted them an interest upon their capi-
44t,aod we have, moreover, taken care that, if the
f4t„tenlen connected with them should desire at some
likre time to retire from the enterprise, they would
tilde nothing more to do than to return their capital
14, goods into our hands, and to say, " Will you take
ptittO from us?"—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord ap-
Livteti to think that we required a spur to induce us to
te4nce in respect to those railways. We required no
aPur
Parce,puer, stimulis, et fortius utere loris."
p4ould be most happy to produce all the papers ap-
altit for by the Noble Lord, and to bring to a conclusion
bat °Nect which the Noble Lord had not more at heart
, 4111 be (Sir J. Hobhouse) had himself.
Rehr: MANGLES concurred with the Hon. Member for
hil.rose in what he had stated with respect to the rail-
lioin enue!.
tie tci JOCELYN replied. He had brought forward
lO
Onastion because he considered it of vast importance
• and the people of England.
. h@ Motion was then agreed to.
)dr RAJA OF SATTARA.
ktilt • G. THOMPSON moved for copies of any docu-
key furnished by the resident at Sattara to the Government,Bons-
lat showing the amount or value of the
sficttY belonging to the State of Setters at the time
la.a,fe decease of the late Raja, and the amount of reve-
-I'4 tuna all sources in the State of Sattara since its ad-
i%
stration by the East India Company, and the charges
age out of the said revenue; of all correspondence
ifsen the widow and the adopted son of the ex-Raja
IN ktl-harm, and the Governor-General's agent at Benares,
between that officer and the Governor-General of
414 ' from the Ist day of December, 1849, to the present
trtestt! and, of all correspondence whether in the
jtof.lePartment or otherwise, between the Government
Nt.,4la and the Court of Directors of the East India
'°4sr,4;oilYs on the subject of the provision to be made for
nt Cu widow and adopted son (so far as the same have
'then presented to this House).—Agreed to.
hcoother orders of the day were then agreed to, and
use adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

Pth ROUSE OF LORDFST,eJxleuekll..
Lordships assembled at
passed
of Chancery (County 'Palatine of Lancaster)
through Committee.
Ilktqrd PETITIONS.
th,
15 L ESBi
nErthßeYeve presented a petition from
ntof any alteration in the
l'''illyttcl4ofte37rineggutlaatio'ns, the petitioners might not be de-
l:4 one delivery at least on the Sundays.
tt4t,:t4arl of LEICESTER presented petitions from
'4l;o°u% and other places against Sunday labour in
I: 't'effice.
``°l4'earl of ST. GERNIANS presented several peti-
t)
111
f'l"Ur of the Marriage Bill.
'4ONTEAGLE presented a p.etition from the
litatB end merchants of Forfar against the arrange-
of the Aberdeen Railway.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES BILL..
Lordships then went into Committee on the
E Str"d'`,.an Colonies Bill.
AIONTEAGLE said that he was about to bring
11k 11°4 their Lordships the question whether in framing
)141*,;ecbatitution for the colonies they would adopt
f,'Nti4llllPle of a single chamber, or whether theywould
pat"' to the old constitutional principle of_ a double
t4l)er. He thought be should be able to show their
kkiltirc 'Pe that the principle of a single chamber
He
,1,11 contrary to the opinions of the colonists. a
t',,Nll;)
oa.bstain :from arguing upon the principle of
!Ingle chamber.. He thought that would almost
of eolliat rit before a British Legislature, but he thought
.; shoe 'to their Lordshis that the principle
iltri",'stigle chamber had been. condemned in all
Ile could cite the example of the United
?tik)l4 ''';_uere that principle had yielded to the idea of a
i on,,%ualnber well in the constitution of the whole
ii,,almlictt,aetes'aassin many separate states. They had
Olb oir2, example of t ill effects resulting from a
11,4. he, ".'per—the results of that system in 1791,
14, ight say, even in the present time. ; and
hi 11411
t "Red his Noble Friend opposite, with all
tllitt,:illithatance with the subject to show one instance
tp,°taiLilecessful experiment of a single chamber, but,
),-,a,and, he could show many instances of l
The Noble Earl had been a great artificer in
4°llB p
, and no person had issued more pieces of
hr4lt-itreta in a give ha
n time tan that Noble Earl had.
WttiL^as the New Zealand constitution, which was
dead letter by the Governor immediately it
444 the Livble Eul had so get rarijam3

suspend the laws until that constitution could be re-
pealed. Th-. next wvs the constitution for Australia,
passed in 1547, which was rejected by the coloiiivs
themselves, because it went to deprive them of a portion
of their franchise. Nov both those constitutions con-
tained the principle of a double chamber, and he asked
the Noble Earl on what grounds ho had altered the
opinions he then held. The Noble Earl hal asked the
uth ice of the governors of the various colonies in that
part of the world, and they unanimously pronounced
in favour of a double chamber, and stated that the
colonists themselves were not opposed to that system.
But the Noble Earl was like the hero of Pope's " Ja-
nuary and May,"
Firm and determined in his mind was he
As men who ask advice are wont to be."

And so, though advised to adopt the system of two
chambet-s, his mind was made up to have but one. If
they inquired into the state of advancement of the co-
lonists they would find that they were capable of con-
ducting their own affairs. He would show their Lord-
ships that in the whole history of the colonies, and in
that of the United States, the principle of a second
chamber was preferred to that of a single one ; and
they had it on the authority of the Committee of the
Privy Council, that they would, had it rested with them
to r, commend, have advised the institution of a second
chamber. But that was not all, the Government were
about also to give a constitution to the Cape of Good
Hope, and the Noble Earl, now at the head of the Colo-
nial Department. (Earl Grey), proposed to give the people
of that colony a double chamber. When their Lordships
recollected the disturbances that took place at the Cape
—when they reflected that the people of that colony had
actually set themselves up in arms against the power cf
the Government, it must seem to them as somewhat
strange that the Government in that case yielded to
violence—that which they refused to the more orderly
and more intelligent people of Australia—a constitution
with a second chamber. Was that consistent?—was it
not strange ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then re-
ferred their Lordships to the colony of Newfound-
land, referred to by Lord Stanley. as having got two
chambers. True, as the Noble Lord had said, they
had been amalgamated for a time, and resolved into
one, because of some petty differences ; but those
differences having been obviated, the two chambers of
that little colony were again restored, and were now in
existence. He apologised to their Lordships for tres-
passing thus at length on their Lordships' time; but
there was one thing to which he felt bound to call their
Lordships' attention—the prayer of the petitions of the
people of Australia; and if there was any one thing for
which more than another the colonists prayed, it was
that their institutions should be assimilated to those of
the mother country. He believed, in a colony which had
no antecedents, and which had no history to fall back
upon, the surest way to give, strength was by the estab-
lishment of the elective system; but the most conserva-
tive system would be by the adoption of a second cham-
ber. He asked the Noble Earl if he felt comfortable at
his proceedings? and he would tell the Noble Earl and
their Lordships, should they pass this Bill, that the co-
lonists would elect such a democratic chamber under it
as would, perhaps, cause strong feelings of regret in this
country. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, as an
amendment, the adoption of a double chamber.
Earl GREY said the Noble Lord had gone into the
question of colonial constitutions at great length—mix-
ing up with it some very harmless banter and pointless
jokes—but be had not touched the real question; for he
bad not shown how it was possible to separate the Le-
gislature of New South Wales without flying in the face
eat' the whole of the colonists, who in all their petitions
deprecated the slightest change. The House of Lords
existed in this country alone of all the countries of .she
world; it grew out of the habits of the people, and it was
as impossible to create it as it would be to create one of
those magnificent oak trees which shot out their roots
in all directions. Ho asked the House, therefore, to
support him on the plain and simple principle of not dis-
turbing the existing institutions in the colonies.
Lord ABINGER said the Bill was not an affirmation
of the existing state of things in the colonies, but the
introdustion of an entire change in their institutions.
The result of the Bill would be the creation of a single
democratic chamber, and the production of great discord
and dissatisfaction in the colonies. Of the two modes of
governing the colonies, the Noble Earl had undoubtedly
adopted the worst.
Lord LYTTELTON said that the colonists bad peti-
tioned over and over again that the British Constitution
might be extended to them. The question before the
House, however, was not as to the best constitution, but
as to the best legislative machinery applicable under
the circumstances to the colony. There was not the
slightest indication in any of the documents laid before
the House that a double chamber would be objection-
able. The Noble Earl's measure did not leave it to the
colony to introduce the system recommended, but would
prevent them from doing so if they should think fit. He
should support the amendment of his Noble Friend,
leaving the details to be filled up at another opportunity
if their Lordships should agree to the principle.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS believed the amend-
ment proposed by the Noble Lord would disappoint the
expectations which had been held out to the colonists.
The Noble Lord had argued as if the colonists had made
the proposition which he advocated,, but it had never
been brought under their consideration at all. He was
not prepared to vote for the amendment, particularly as
this was an experiment which he thought deserving of
a fair trial. The proposition made by the Noble Lord
could not, under the existing circumstances of the colony
be carried out, because a large number of the most in-
fluential parties resided at a considerable distance from
Sydney, and could not make it convenient to spend a con-
siderable portion of the year in that place.
Lord WODEHOUSE thought that a system which
had been so universally adopted in the colonies ought
not to be abandoned or departed from without some
stronger reasons than had yet been adduced. One
strong objection to the Bill was, that it would make the
Government a separate party in the colony,, distinct
from and opposed to the people, thus causing a constant
feeling of irritation between the colony and the
mother country.—(Hear, hear.) Although he believed it
essential to the establishment of a wise system of repre-
sentative institutions in the colonies that the Legislature
should consist of two chambers, he did not agree with
those who advocated a single chamber, on the ground
that they would lay the foundation of aristocratic feel-
ings in those colonies. He believed they would commit
a great error by sanctioning this Bill, and should there-
fore support the amendment.
The Committee divided on the amendment, when the
numbers were—
Contents ... ••• 20
Non-contents 22
Majority against the amendment... —2
On our return to the gallery, we found
Lord LYTTELTON recommending the reduction of
the franchise to one-half the amount proposed by the
Bill. As the Noble Esrl (Grey) intended to alter the
clause, he would withdraw the amendment which he
should otherwise have proposed.
Earl GREY thought a reduction in the franchise very
desirable, and proposed a clause in accordance with the
views of the Noble Lord.
After a few words from Earl POWIS,
The clause as amended was agreed to.
In reply to Lord MONTEAGLE,
Earl GREY said he saw no reason why the franchise
in South Australia and Van Diemen's Land should not
be the same as that proposed for New South Wales, and
he would propose a clause to that effect.

On clause 8 ceing propose 3,
Lord MON FE AGLE objected to it, because, what-
ever might be the capacity of Western Australia to re-
ceive a constitution, until they should have the menus
of paying the whole of their expenses they would tot,
under the provisions of the Bill, be able to obtain a con-
stitution. It was a novel principle to lay down that no
state was entitled to representative government until it
had a revenue sufficient to pay its expenses.
Earl GREY said, so far from being a new principle it
was the ancient principle of our own Constitution. The
whole power of the House of Commons had arisen from
the Crown being under the necessity of applying to it
for money. It was his deliberate opinion that until the
people of the colonies were able to pay the expenses of
their civil government, they were not entitled to repre-
sentative institutions.
Lord MONTEAGLE asked if representative institu-
tions were to be refused so long as the colonies did not
pay the whole of their expenses? If so, we ought not
to grant them so long as we paid the salaries of the go-
vernors.
Earl FITZ WILLI AM disputed the position laid down
by the Secretary for the Colonies, that the power of the
House of Commons arose from its having the power of
the purse. It had its power in consequence of this being
a free country. . _

Earl GREY, in answer to the observation of the
Noble Lord (Nlonteagle), said that the payment of the
salaries of colonial governors by this country was a wise
exception in the colonial expenditure. With regard to
the other point he believed he was correct i❑ saying that
i❑ point of fact representative institutions had been
viewed as neither more nor less than a machinery for
taxation. The colonies ought to have representative in-
stitutions as soon as they were able to defray the cost of
government. Western Australia would speedily be in
such a position.
Lord LYTTELTON congratulated the Noble Earl
on coming round to the views which he had expressed
in 1846.
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 14,
In reply to Lord MONTEAGLE,
Earl GREY said that he had been in communication
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of
giving the colonists greater control over their customs,
and he had no doubt such a control would be granted
them.

The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 16,

Lord LYITELTON wished to know whether it was
desirable that schedule C should stand part of the Bill.
The effect of it would be to fix the minimum to be paid
for purposes of public worship. He thought it would
be better to leave the whole question of the pecuniary
support of religious establishments to the colonists
themselves, as it was clearly one of their own internal
concerns.
After a few words from Lord REDESDALE,
Earl GREY said it had been considered that the pre-
sent Bill could not originate in their Lordships' House,
because it created a taxing power. He would not take
upon Limself to offer an opinion as to how far his Noble
Friend's (Lord Lyttelton's) proposition would interfere
with the priviltges of the House of Commons, but he
would strongly deprecate any alteration in the Bill from
its present shape.
After a short conversation, the proposed suggestion
was not pressed, and the clause was understood to have
been agreed to.
On clause 17 being proposed, which showed how the
appropriation of sums granted might be varied,
Lord MONTEAGLE complained that there was a
power given by this clause to tie Gcnevaor of the colony