The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-07 00:00:00

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in point of fact, where the poor railway traveller used i Hon. Member for Kendal, who had on a former occasion
to pay threepence be now paid sixpence, and where taken a very active part in the revision of the Standing
sixpence, a shilling ; and having the interests of the Orders relating to the introduction of Railway Bills ;
working class tol -ok after, as well as that of their and there was the lion. Member for Inverness, who had
employers, he ! oound to make this statement, also taken a great interest in the subject. He should
although it went to contradict what fell from have been rejoiced to have seen both those Hon. -Gentle-
his Honourable Friend the Member for Renfrew- men on the Committee. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
shire, when addressing the House on this sub- ber for Bath supposed that he was wedded to his own
ject last night. To return, however, to the pro- opinion on matters of detail. He could assure the lion.
posed Committee. Amongst the names now pro- and Learned Gentleman that he was perfectly sensible of
posed by the Government, he could count not less than the difficulties which he should experience in adjusting
five who were directors in railways, and the Right Hon. these details, and that he should be glad of any sug-
Gentleman himself (Mr. Gladstone), who would, of gestion as to the best method of proceeding. With re-
course be the Chairman of the Committee, though not a gard to the specific proposition before the House, if
director, frankly admitted that he was a considerable they postponed the question then they would be com-
railway shareholder. He (Mr. Wallace) in the course pelled to deal with these difficulties at some future day,
he now proposed to adopt, would proceed in the fairest and considering the number of applications for Railway
possible way, for he should object at once to the first Bills that would probably be made in the course of the
name, that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, being allowed session, he thought it important that they should pro-
to remain on the list. He meant no personal disrespect to teed with the inquiry at the earliest possible period.
that Right Hon. Gentleman; far from it, but he frankly Mr. HAWES gave the Right Hon. Gentleman full
,
owned he looked with great suspicion at the entire corn- credit for his anxiety to do justice to this very impor-
position of the proposed Committee. He had no other tent subject, but he had not answered the objection made
name to propose, so little did he care who were upon it ; by the Noble Lord, that -the railway interest was too
his only object being that the Committee should be strongly represented. The Committee would have to
so constituted as to be entitled to the confidence of consider not only the measures necessary to be adopted
the public. He moved that the first name be omitted. for all future railways, but also what alterations the
Mr. GLADSTONE would only say one word upon protection of the public might require to be made in the
the subject. If he had found that the rule in forming regulations of existing railways, so as to protect the
these committees was to keep out the names of parties public against the monopoly which might be created by
who might be supposed to be interested, he need not tell a concentration of interests. He objected to increasing
the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Greenock, that he the number of Members beyond fifteen, and he suggested
should have been very glad to have acted upon it, and so the propriety of suspending the appoiftment of the
evaded the duties which must necessarily have devolved Committee. There was a great preponderance of rail-
upon himself, as Chairman of this Committee. But he way interests among its members, and he would suggest
found, on former occasions, that parties directly inter- to the Right Hon. Gentleman the propriety of substitut-
ested in railways did not, under similar circumstances, ing some other names fer those of gentlemen connected
feel justified in shrinking from the performance of those with railways.—(Cheers.) He should wish to see his
duties on the ground of personal interests, It was a Hon. Friend the Member for Kendal on that Committee.
great mistake to suppose that any uniform feeling per- His Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for Bath had
railed the parties interested in the several railways already given notice of a motion on the subject of railways that pre-
formed, and those which were contemplated. In point supposed some attention to the subject. He should like
of fact, the interests of parties connected with the old to see the Hon. and Learned Gentleman appointed to
railways were distinctly different from those who were the Committee. He trusted that the appointment of the
now, or who might be hereafter, connected with the new Committee would be postponed after the objectionswhich
lines. Again, on tho:Se railways which were called high- had been made that night. He trusted the House would be
fare lines, the interests were anything but identical with spared the pain of dividing upon the names of individual
those which were known as low-fare lines. If the gentlemen ; but he also hoped that for some of those
House, on the present occasion, chose to adopt a new names the Right Hon. Gentlemen would substitute those
principle, he could have no personal objection to it what- of Members unconnected with
theyrailwa interests.
ever. He only wished it to be understood that, in the Mr. P. M. STEWART hoped He would feel no
present instance, he had acted according to the princi- delicaey in disposing of his name. It had been put in
pies which had been heretofore laid downs without any consultation with himself, and the first
Mr. L ABOUC HERE said that undoubtedly, in ap- knowledge he had had of his appointment had been ob-
pointing a Committee for any interest, mercantile or tained from reading the votes of the morning. He felt
commercial, it was usual to put a certain number of grateful for the honour which had been conferred on
persons on it expressly interested in the sub- him, but he was not at all ambitious of serving on the
sect ; and he did not see why the House Committee. It would be ungrateful in him to decline to
should depart from the rule in this instance. serve, and he would at once state that he was an ho-
Certainly, therefore, if the Hon. Member for Greenock norary director of the Greenock Railway, although he
persisted in his amendment, he should vote against him, never interfered in its management, nor was he a great
as, from the official situation which was held by the holder of railway stock. If the construction of the
Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade, not- Committee rendered it at all liable to suspicion, he would
withstanding the circumstances which had been named, recommend the Right Hon. Gentleman to postpone the
he thought it most important that
-his services should be appointment of it. The Right Hon. Gentleman, how-
retained. It was, however, quite another question whe- ever, was the best judge as to the proper course of pro-
ther the railway interest did not-too greatly preponderate.: reeding to be adopted. He had been -put oh the Com-
in the Committee now nominated.—(Cheers.) In look- mittee without his consent, and he was not offended in
ing over the names, it certainly was his (Mr. Lebow. consequence ; neither should he take offence if he were
chere's) impression that the railway interest was repre- put off without his consent.
seined in it to a degree which might deprive the Mr. WARBURTON thought it right to state, as allu-
Committee of that weight in public opinion which it was sion had been made to him, that there were reasons why
desirable every Committee of that House should possess. he should not be appointed on the Committee. He had
--(Loud cheers.) That principle, however, was a totally no experience whatever as to the details of railway re-
different one to the urgent and inconvenient rule which gulation. He held a chief office in a society which re-
the Hon. Member for Greenock desired to have intro- quired so much of his attention, that his punctual
duced, and, therefore, he must vote against the amend- attendance at the Committee would be impossible ; and
limit, and for- the retention of the name of the Right although, at present, he was not a subscriber to any
Hon the President of the Board of Trade.—(Hear.) railway undertaking, yet lie saw a notice of an applica-
Mr. HUME said the principle was as stated by his tion about to be made for a Railway Bill to-which he
Hon. Friend the Member for Greenock, however &Mi. had no doubt his constituents would expect that he
rent the practice might have been of late years. He should subscribe ; and, therefore, the objection which
could speak from his own experience on this subject, for had been made to railway proprietors would equally
he had himself challenged the votes of Mr. Pascoe Gren-
apply to him. He complained that there was no one
fell and others, as shareholders in the St. Katharine's on the Committee to represent the travelling public.
Docks, when the Bill authorising their erection was be-
He did not know whether the Hon. Member for Wolver-
fore the House. The Bill was brought up ; it was op-
hampton possessed any railway shares ; he no doubt
posed ; and on a division being called, and before it took would defend the interests of the public ;but he thought
place, he challenged the names referred to as persons who, there ought to he persons on the Committee who were
being interested, ought not to be allowed to vote. On con-
neither directors nor shareholders. He hoped the
sideration these votes were struck out.—(Hear, hear.) House would stick to the number of fifteen, for if once
The House, therefore, had acted on a former occasion they infringed on that rule, they would never be able to
on the principle laid down by his Hon. Friend, the Mem- adhere to it afterwards.
ber for Greenock, and what had been advanced by the Mr. G. A. HAMILTON trusted that if the name of
Right Hon. Member for Taunton, (Mr. Labouchere), any gentleman were substitued for his on the Committee
was not wholly correct. For his own part, he (Mr. it would be some gentleman connected with Ireland.
Hume) considered it was too much the practice to put Sir JOHN EASTHOPE had no objection to have the
interested parties on the Committees of that House. name of some other gentleman substituted for that of
A Committee was appointed to ascertain facts, and to himself, if such were the desire of the House.
get at the real merits and the truth of the case. It was Mr. GLADSTONE would not object to postpone the
desirable to have parties upon it who were both for appointment of the Committee as so many gentleman
and against the object in view. A Committee so con- had expressed their willingness to retire.
stituted would always give them the best information, Sir G. GREY hoped that, in the reconstruction of
and upon that the House would always decide safely the Committeee, the Right Hon. Gentlemen would take
what course to pursue. He had always been of .opinion, care that every part of the country should be adequately
that no individual whatever should be allowed to sit on represented.
a Committee who had any personal interest in it what- Mr. WALLACE had not made a personal objection
ever. He had tried often to carry that principle out. to any one, and he trusted that no misunderstanding
lie repeated, that his Hon. Friend, the Member for would exist on the subject.
Greenock, was right in his principle, though, as to The motion was then withdrawn.
modern instances, not in his practice, and he could not MERCHANT SEAMEN'S FUND.
sit down without expressing his surprise at, and disap- On the motion of Mr. GLADSTONE, the following
proval of, the great number of railway directors nos Members were nominated as the Select Committee on
minated on the Committee just submitted to the House. the Merchant Seamen's Fund:—Mr. William Gladstone,
Lord HOWICK contended, that the case of the St. Sir Howard Douglas, Mr. Barclay, Mr. Lyall, Mr.
Katherine's Docks did not apply in the present instance. Hodgson Ilinde, Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Rice, Sir John
There the parties challenged were directly interested Hanmer, Captain Gladstone, Admiral Dundas. Mr.
in the Bill before the House. Here a Committee was Corry, Mr. Chapman, Mr. Ross, Mr. Hutt, and Mr.
wanted merely to judge what general regulations were Philip Miles.
desirable in the management of railways. The conse- SUPPLY—REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.
quence of acting on the principle laid down by the Hon. On the SPEAKER being about to read the Order of the
Member for Greenock, would be to drive from the Corn- Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of
mittee all the information and experience which Mem- Supply,
hers of that House, being railway directors and proprie- Mr. WALLACE said that he had some petitions to
tc.rs, could bring to bear upon the subject. But he present.
(Lord Howick) could not help thinking that as the The SPEAKER informed the lion. Gentleman that
Committee was now constituted, the railway interest he could not present them.
was too strongly represented—(Cheers)—and that gen- Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose to bring for-
tlemen, holding high situations in these great under- ward the motion of which he had given notice. He ad-
takings were not the most proper instruments to effect mitted it was an unusual motion, but the reason he
the object that House was supposed to have in view.— brought it forward was, that there was not a fair repre-
(Loud cheers.) Why, these were probably the very sentation of the people in that House, and that their
men they might want for witnesses.—(Hear, hoar.) It grievances were not attended to by the House. They
was bad to have one person as a witness, and the same complained of the monopolies.on corn, one of the prin-
person afterwards to draw conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) cipal of which was the tax on food, by which the menu-
Ile hoped the names of the directors would be withdrawn. facturing and commercial interests of the country suffered.
Mr. ROEBUCK said the Government could not do lula__would not at present enter on this subject. They
otherwise than observe that the feeling of the House cdfliplained of the colonial monopolies, of which the
was strongly opposed to the Committee as now proposed. principal was the sugar monopoly. They complained of
In his opinion every one of the names upon this Corn- the banking monopolies, and the East India monopoly,
mittee had been unduly chosen.—(Hear, hear.) Amongst and above all, they complained of the monopoly of the
a great number of other names upon it he found that of Church. This was a monopoly felt particularly in
Mr. Russell, who was Chairman of the Directors of the Ireland, and it was now being felt in Scotland.
Great Western Railway. This he thought most un- The. people complained of an enormous burden
warrantable, because the Committee would have to enter of taxation caused by wars, which would not have been
into negotiations with several of the railway companies. undertaken if the people were truly represented. Ile
Now he would ask who were the persons to decide upon did not want, however, that the public credit should be
the manner in which those negotiations were to be car- destroyed by not paying the interest of the debt incurred
ried on ? The Hon. Member to whom he had just al- by those wars. The people complained of the manner in
laded was one of those who was most deeply interested which the public money was expended, and the system
in the matter, and in his capacity of chairman was a of taxation. They complained of their rights being in-
person who would be very likely to come before the vaded, and of unjust laws being passed. They complained
Committee as a witness, and also would be one most in- of the new poor-law, but the principle of this law he did
tevested in the negotiations. He could go through all not intend to enter upon. One of the Acts invading the
that Committee, and point out scarcely one name un- rights of the people was the Arms Act. That ,eket could
connected with either the Government or some railroad, not have been carried if the people were truly repre-
while there was not one representative of any of those sented, and it appeared now that the branding of the
large towns to which there was a continual influx of
arms would render it impracticable. But what he com-
travellers. lie should conclude by entreating that some plained of was, the arbitrariness of the Act. This,
more fitting Members should be selected for this Com. amongst other things, produced the cry for the repeal
mittee, who would be likely to attend more to general of the union. The people frequently asked for inquiry,
than individual interests. but it was uniformly denied. There was an inquiry de-
Lord J. RUSSELL did not entirely agree with the mended respecting the conduct of certain judges, but it
Hon. and Learned. Member for Bath in saying that no was refused. They asked for inquiry into the standing
director of a railway should be allowed to be placed on army. There were, he believed, 38,000 regii-
the Committee. He thought that to a certain degree lar troops, and 9,000 armed constabulary, in Ireland.
the fact of having the practical remarks of those gentle- These would be entirely unnecessary if the
men would be likely to hare a beneficial result. With just demands of the people were attended to.
respect to the Noble Lord the Member for Totnes, he But what they principally complained of was the state
should say that he had been one of the members of the of the representation. Only one in seven had the fran-
Committee, and at that time he had no connexion with chise, and could that be considered a fair representation
tiny railway. He (Lord John Russell) thought that a of the people? Another reason why the people con-
matter for consideration, whether, if the directors of one sidered that this House did not truly represent them,
railway were 'upon the Committee, those persons con- was that it was returned by corrupt practices. This
nected with other lines of railroad, who did not possess House received the petitions of the people, and had
the same privilege, might have reason to complain? them recorded, but while they did not contradict their
Mr. GLADSTONE thought it most desirable that grievances, they refused all inquiry. One of the peti-
eome railway directors should be placed upon the Com- tions presented to that House was signed by 3,500,000
mittee. lie differed from the Noble Lord that persons persons. In that petition they used the following strong
who were shareholders were more fit to be on the Corn- language. "Your House, as at present constituted, has
mittee than those who were directors, for many of the not been elected by, and acts irresponsive of, the people.
shareholders were more interested in the matter than It only represents parties, and legislates for the benefit
the directors. There was Mr. Glynn, who was so en- of the few without any regard for the welfare or the in-
tensive a holder of shares as to be qualified to act as a Wrests of the many." Thus, they challenged the House
director. If the Committee wanted to have the informa- to the proof of what they said, but they were disre-
tion of experienced and practical men, who were con- garde d. On the occasion when the Hon. Member for
versant with the subject under investigation, he thought Finsbury moved that no person should sit on Election
they could not do better than to have a fair proportion Committees. who would not make a declaration that he
of railway directors. At the same time, while he ap- had not used any undue means to procure his return,
only 19 Members voted in favour of his motion, thus
proved of having a fair proportion of directors upon the
acknowledging the charges made against them, and
Committee, he should state that he did not con-
sider the question a new one. Previous to that they were not in a condition to deny those charges.
This House then stood in the position of an accused
Forming the Committee, the first thing he did
party. It permitted no inquiry, and it did not
was -to procure a list of the names which
deny the charges which were brought against it.
were upon the former Committee of 1840, and he
saw there the names of many gentlemen connected with The inquiry that was demanded in the petition of the
Char-ists was refused,..the numbers being 287 against it
• railways, amongst whom were the Hon. Member for
Sunderland, who declined ,to act upon this Committee, and 49 for it. The House having been in that position,
he maintained that it was.not in a fit condition to impose
although fie was a person of great experience in those
taxes. The forms of the. House allowed the people to
matters. There was also the Hon. Baronet the Member
call for redress of grievances before any supplies were
.'
folrit hLeicestereroe, who, and the Honourable Member for
granted. Those rules were framed for the purpose of
Railway, was a Director of the South Eastern
which was different from all the others; being defending the liberty of the subject. It was true that
what is termed a low-fare railway, and it was on account those rules ught„ not to be taken advantage of except
of the intimate acquaintance which that Hon. Gentle- under extraordinary circumstances, but he was there to
rycircumstances now
man had with railway matters that he selected him to be maintain that those extraordina
one of the Committee. lie admitted that the subject existed. It was not his object, as he had before stated,
was one of great difficulty. A • to forcel the House to commit itself to a particular prin-
the not consist of more then
According to the rules of •
House a Committee could' cip e of reform. His resolution merely required the
fifteen Members. Since coming into the House he had House to consider the demands of the people, and whe-
received many communications from
gentlemen con-
nected with various railway schemes in different parts they there were faults in the system of representation or
ni!t. He was not going. to abandon those principles
of the country, complaining that their interests
were not which he had declared, in his opinion,
. should be the
adequately represented in the Committee. If it should foundation of reform. But he did not wish •to commit
be the pleasure of the House to depart from the rule 11 the House, or any onourable Gentleman who might
ratting the number of a Committee, although the preee-- rote with, him, to this particular principle. He
wished the House togo into dent might be ohjictionable, still it would- tend to re •
to ascertain whether h
move many of these difficulties; but if it was deterniine'd
It might be said
to adhere to the number of fifteen, he,,did not see how thatt that principle was a right one.
nonentity, unless it everetcan7rrilnetilsuhornntuhleetff.
should affirm this resolution, his would be a
theycould appoint Members representing all these diffe-
rent interests on the Committee. He did not then
nf the house
other resolution, to the effect that the tH
moveh
an-
other
appoint a Select Committee himself consider it a matter of importance that
or resolvoeusietseelf should
4a. Committee to inquire into the state of the representa-
tion. or - four directors of railway' companies
Lion. .It might, however, be said that this inquiry would
were included among the , members of the. Com-
last a long time, and that the supplies could not be dis-
inittee. The labours .of the Committee were merely
pensed with for so long a. time as that inquiry would
preliminary, and if it should appear that any recom-
uvudation of the Committee had been carried solely by
last. He did not wish to impede the granting the sup-
/ tirerv'4. _ 1:411ei rail ray directors it would lose a great Plies. But if_ the Government should think
, fit to grant
' .." hit ich would be otherwise attached to
, this inquiry he would be ready to vote for the supplies
IA, ' ,1 s • ere were many other gentlemen jf. f • long inquiry
e three, our, or six months, or as as that ,-quiry
•
e n anxious to have seen oa that ! '"° '
1 UV'
lej,e n raeticable. There
v • - -_, , -,was she ' should *4 The question now raised was not whether
~.- -_,-.--- ,- 1
~.,,
4..,

71-3,