The Sun.
London, England, 1868-03-13 00:00:00

SPAIN AND CHILI-.

Mr. WEGUELIN asked the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs %hether a convention had been entered
into between the British Government and the Ministers of
Spain and of Chili ?
Lord STANLEY said no such convention had been
entered into.

THE STATE OF IRLELAND-ADJOURNED
DEBATE.

The adjourned debate on the motion of Mr. Meouiltz
was resumed by

Mr. HORSII:AN, who said it was a matter of great in—
terest doubtless to the house to know the policy of the Go-
vernment on the subject of the condition of Ireland,
but from what had been communicated to them by
the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the three great
subjects, namely, the Church, the Land, and Education,
what was the policy of the Government ? On the Church
it was a policy of inactivity; on the Land, it
was a policy of procrastination ; and on Education,
it was a policy of retrogression. (Loud cheers, and hear,
hear.) What seemed to be the great panacea for the
wants of Ireland ? Why the Government proposed
Royal Commissioners—(laughter)—they proposed to
deal with the religious, political, and social condition of
Ireland by royal commissions. (Laughter.) That might
be what they (the Government) called a policy, but he
must say he could not see the semblance of a
principle in it. (" Hear; hoar," and cheer:.) The
hon. gentleman then proceeded to refer to the system
of education now in progress in Ireland, which he said was
popular with persons of all denominations, because it was
a mixed system, and it was of the utmost importance that
the house should stand by and not allow the thin end of
the wedge to be got in by the Government introducing a
measure for granting a charter to the proposed Catholic
University. If such a courso was assented to the present
successful system would eventually fall; and in its place
would be supplied another not near so well calculated to
meet the wants of the people generally. He had to sym-
pathise with the noble lord, who had a cruel task im-
posed upon him last night. The greatest anxiety was
shown to know the policy of the Government on Ireland.
But he must say he never, in all his parliamentary ex-
perience, met with a greater disappointment than that he
experienced last night. (Hear, hear.) It was though
no fault of the noble lord ; he rose up
to explain the policy of the Government, but
when he was about to do so he could
not find it. (Laughter.) He looked for it in his box
on the table near him but it was'nt there. (Loud laughter.)
He tumbled over his papers but it was'nt there—(laugh-
ter)—and then he turned to the Prime Minister and looked
in his face, but it was'nt there. (Shouts of laughter.) As
to the Church of Ireland, so long as it was:maintained as a
favoured Church, there would be no peace in Ireland, and
it ought therefore to be swept away. It had passed be-
yond the stage of inquiry. It could not be shelved for
another year as the Government proposed, but Parliament
ought at once to lay down the principle on which the
ecclesiastical arrangements of Ireland should be continued
for the future. Passing to the land question, ho traced
the evils of the present system to the time when Ireland
was governed by corruption, and when the enormous
multiplication of small holdings, each giving a vote,
gave a higher market value to an estate than the
highest cultivation. Looking to the different circum-
stances of England and Ireland, the doctrine that the
same principles of legislation were applicable to both
countries was utterly fallacious, and for the future
our legislation ought to be in accordance with the
wishes and wants of the Irish people without asking
whether it would be applicable to England. Never could
we rule Ireland without coercion until we had given full
effect to the principle of religious equality, until we had
removed in some way or other the feeling of insecurity
which was driving the tenant farmers from the country,
and until we had united all classes in one great system of
unsectarian education. _ _ _

After some remarks from Mr. CORRXNCE, who did not
oppose an inquiry, nor the application of moderato re-
medial measures, but denounced revolutionary panaoeas,
Mr. LOWE maintained that in discussing the Irish
question Fenianism should be left out of sight. It was
an incidental circumstance of the present condition of Ire-
land arising altogether out of the close of the American
war, and fed entirely from extraneous sources, and it was
ridiculous to assert that it had any connexion with the
land or the Church questions. The aim of the Fenians
was plunder and confiscation ; they came, not to attack
the British Government, but to desolate Ireland, and the
existence of this conspiracy ought not to force us into any
extraordinary or revolutionary measures. Feeling
impatient, ho said, as an Englishman, of perpetual
misrepresentations on this question, he proceeded to
show the fallacies on which most of them rested.
Though there was much that was unsatisfactory in
the state of Ireland, she, nevertheless, as Lord Mayo had
shown authoritatively, was progressing, and in some re-
spects rapidly. Ireland was no more governed by England
thane gpilimad by Ireland. §ll9 adequately reprommtsd

The discussion was continued by Mr. Hughes, who
argued in favour of giving a legal sanction and operation
to the tenant-right custom, and advocated an application
of the principle of association to agriculture; by Mr.
Vance, who, attributing the ills of Ireland to the creation
of 40s. freehold; to the want of a real union between the
two countries, and to the operation of free trade, insisted
that to touch the revenues of the Established Church
would be a violation of the Act of Union, and that Ireland
never could be benefi',ed by a policy of confiscation ; and
by Mr. Agar-Ellis, who recommended that the State should
pay all Ministers of religion, and exposed the abuses which
were inseparable from fixity of tenure.
Mr. JACOB BRIGHT delivered a maiden speech, in
which he dwelt on tho anomalies of the Irish Church.
The policy of the Government he characterised as the
merest tinkering with a great question, and he specially
condemned the proposal to create a new establishment and
a new sectarian university. The great want of Ireland
was an extension of the franchise, a just distribution of
seats, and vote by ballot. •

Mr. MILL was not much surprised that nothing was to
be done on the land question, for he allowed that the time
was far distant when what he should consider a real re-
medial measure woull be proposed by a Government. But
he specially regretted the determination not to deal with
the State Church— an anomaly which was condemned by
the whole human race, and which no people would
suLmit to but at the point of the sword. The plan of
endowing the Roman Catholic clergy Mr. Mill, retort-
ing the taunt of utopianism which had been levelled at
him, characterised as " kakotopian" too bad to be
put into practice. The clergy themselves certainly
would not accept our bribe. The state of Ireland, he
maintained, was more dangerous than it had ever been at
any previous time, and the circumstance that it received
its strongest support from abroad was the most dangerous
feature. Admitting that since 1829 we had ceased to
govern Ireland for our own benefit, and had only boon
guilty of not knowing how to carry out our good inten-
tions, he traced the course of legislation since that year,
pointing out our numerous mistakes. But the groat rea-
son of our failure was our unwillingness to face the large
and bold measures which alone could cure Ireland. Mr.
Mill defended at length, and with great elaboration, his
pamphlet, which he said had been greatly misrepresented,
and complained particularly of the epithet " confiscation."
His object was to promote se,urify of tenure, which was
the great want of Ireland, and he suggested that the com-
mission to be appointed should inquire how far its prin-
ciple with modification, to which he was not adverse,
could be applied in practice.

Mr. HARDY denied that Mr. M.;ll's plan, if it were put
in practice, would have any effect in removing Irish dis-
affection, and he pointed out that the Landed Estates
Court already gave facilities for the purchase of land in
small lots. After protesting warmly against the vague
and exaggerated language of Mr. Maguire and Mr. Hors-
man, and repeating some of the facts stated by Lord
Mayo to show that Ireland was progressing, and that
Fenianism derived its strength from external sources, he
proceeded to defend the Government programme. The
mixed system of education, he asserted, had become gra-
dually, almost entirely denominational, and the same feel-
ing which had brought about this change existed with re-
gard to University education. The Catholics of Ireland,
as a rule, had not sent their sons either to Trinity College
or the Queen's Colleges, and from that he assumed that
they desired an University of their own. Indeed, they had
founded and endowed one, and this was the justification of
the Government in proposing to create a new University
which would not bo a merely clerical establishmenl. As
to the Irish Church, he pointed out that the commission
bad been appointed at the instance of Lord Russell, and ho
demanded that those who pressed for immediate disesta-
blishment should first show what they would do with the
revenues when they had got it. In illustrating this he read
a long extract from a speech of Mr. Gladstone, who in 1865
resisted a motion of Mr. Dillwyu on the ground that
its acceptance would make it necessary for th 3 Govern-
ment to come forward with a plan. Mr. Gladstone then
said, " The whole question is what is your remedy ?" and
that was now the difficulty. With respect to many sub-
jects it was necessary for those who were charged with the
responsibilities of Government to give up some of their
most cherished predilections ; but now to consent to a re-
solution for the immediate disestablishment of the Church
would be an unparalleled act of political cowardice, which,
so far from conciliating the Irish people, would be but the
signal for fresh demands. At present, therefore, the Go-
vernment were not prepared to make any proposal on the
Church question, and, seeing that Lord Russell during the
years he had been in office had always declined to deal
with it, he held it to be highly unreasonable that the pre-
sent Ministry, which was new in office, should be com-
pelled to pronounce on it at a moment's notice.
The debate was adjourned by Mr. C. Fortescue until to-
day (Friday.)
Some other business was disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at 12 o'clock.