The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-13 00:00:00

penal colonies received the greatest benefit from the
system of sending convicts to them from this country.
In proof of that, he need appeal to no other or no more
satisfactory evidence than that of Sir Richard Burke,
the late Gevernor of New South Wales, who Laid that
he was induced to set a high value on the employment
of convict labour in the formation of a new colony,
inasmuch as in New South Wales, by the aid of convict
labour, the industrious inhabitants had been enabled,
within a period of fifty years, to convert a wilderness
into a flourishing colony. And in regard to the moral
conduct of those convicts, he gave it as his opinion that
not only had transportation contributed to the good of
the colony, but had led to the moral improvement of the
convict; themselves in as great a degree, as far as his
observation had gone, as could have been effected in any
penitentiary in England or in Ireland. After what had
been said as to the abandonment of transportation by
the Government, he did not wonder that the inhabitants
of some of the colonies now stood out in condemnation
of the system; and he could not but state that, unless
they placed the system on a new footing, it would be
impossible to carry it on. It was said there was no re-
luctance in the inhabitants of Western Australia to re-
ceive convicts, but that was doubtful. But supposing
there was no doubt about the matter, the colony could
not recive all the convicts which would be sent from
this country. Bat then they were told that Van
Diemen's Lind would teeeive a large portion of them,
although he did not believe that with the facts they
had before them with respect to the feeling of that
colony, that the inhabitants would submit to have
it made the receptacle of the whole convict
population cf this country. They had the example
of the Cape as an evidence of what, a determined resist-
ance to the lair could effect, and of that they would be
most apt to take advantage. He regretted that the opi-
nions of the inhabitants of the Cape had been yielded to,
as he believed it would be attended with most fatal re-
sults to the Government. If, however, they were deter-
mined on curtailing the number of convicts sent abroad,
they were bound to employ them in a proper manner in
this country, and to give them sufficient accommodation.
Now, what was the case in this respect so far as Ire-
land was concerned ? In the gaol of his own county,
there were, during last year, while cholera was making
its ravages over the land, from 100 to 200 prisoners dis-
tributed over 15 cells. In the Cork gaol, which contained
accommodation for 500, there were 1,549 prisoners con-
fined at one time ; in Galway gaol, which contained ac-
commodation fur 112, there was confined at one time
1,075 ; and in the course of last year the mortality
in that gaol was 450. That was a state of
things which ought not to exist; and while
the Noble Lord (Stanley) had said that to employ
those convicts on public works in this country would
not suffice, as those works would have an end, but in
these colonies there was an inexhaustible field in which
to employ the labour of their convicts, and he was,
therefore, against any diminution in the transportation
of convicts to them, conceiving the system to be for the
benefit of those colonies, as well as that of the convicts
themselves.
Earl GREY said, as regarded the Irish prisons, he
wished to state, that while he did not deny that there
was in some of these a deficiency of accommodation, in
consequence of the great increase of convicts during the
past two years in that country; yet, in each year since
the present administration came into office, there hai
been a larger number of convicts sent out of the country
than there had been during many years preceding. At
the same time the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had done
all that lay in his power to increase the means of
disposing of those convicts. An establishment
had been formed on Spike Island, where from
twelve to fourteen hundred convicts were stationed,
while there was also a penitentiary established on the
model of Pentonville put into operation. In fact, more
could not have been done than had been done to meet
the large increase of the convicts which had taken place
in that country. As to the general question, he had
listened to the debate which had taken place upon it
with much satisfaction, as, considering the opposite
opinions held by those who had taken part in it, he was
led to regard what had been stated as favourable to the
system which Government had adopted. Two Noble
Lord:, who had taken part in the debate, had objected to
transportation altogether, while the Noble Lord who
had last spoken was for carrying it out to the fullest
extent. He was not prepared to deny bat that some
evils had arisen by sending convicts in large numbers
to the penal colonies, but still those evils had been
greatly exaggerated, and if they compared them with
those which would have existed under a different
mode of secondary punishment, ho did not doubt
but that the balance would have-been in favour of trans-
portation. He had the example of other countries,
France, for instance, as to the evils which were likely
to arise from keeping a large number of convicts in this
country; and when he stated that there were at the pre-
sent time 48,000 individuals in the Australian colonies,
of which the great majority were honestly earning their
livelihood, who had been sent out there as convicts, but
who, had they remained in this country, would he be-
lieved, almost in spite of themselves, have been compelled
to live aiscriminals. No better argument could be advanced
in favour of sending convicts to such places. The fact
was, that South Australia never could have risen as it
had done had it not been for the convicts sent to it.
Transportation, then, ought not to be abandoned, but he
believed that the most penal part of the sentence of trans-
portation ought to be inflicted at home. It was admitted
on all hands, that there were means for carrying out that
portion of the sentence at home which there was nut in
the colonies. It was true some Noble Lords had con-
tended that the works at home on which convicts were
employed would cease in the course of a few year?, one
Noble Lurd having urged, that as the Portland works
would soon terminate, some other mode of employment
for the convicts there engaged ought to be sought after,
but the great bulk id' the building.: of Portland being
all wood, could he removed, if necessary, while the
quarries at Portland being almost inexhaustible, and
composed of an excellent quality of stone, which one of
the cathedrals of that city could exhibit, the convicts
could be employed there in raising those stones, which
were in great repute fur buildings throughout the king-
dom. The Noble Lord who last addressed the House
had recommended the employment of those convicts on
large works in the colonies; but" after the frightful
scenes which had taken place in Nev South Wales and
Van Diemen's Land, from the employment of convicts
in gangs on public roads or other public works, he
would decidedly deprecate having recourse again to
any such expedient. The system had led to scenes of
demoralisation the most abandoned, and he believed
that unless on a small
,scale, and in limited
numbers, they could not be so employed, if sent out
there at once. Much might be done afterwards when
they had passed through the ordeal of home training, and
when they could be sent out on tickets of leave to live in
particular districts of the colony, and be employed in the
formation of roads and other improvements, then much
good might be effected by them, and Government was at
present considering a plan how they could be best lo-
cated to effect that object. There were no doubt great
difficulties in the way, but he had no hesitation in saying
that those difficulties would soon be diminished, as he
was certain that in a few years there would be a larger
field for the disposal of their convicts in the colonies than
there was at present. The Noble Lord alluded also in
favourable terms to the plan of having a separate colony
in North Australia, consisting entirely of convicts. Now
he (Earl Grey) dissented entirely from that, because it
would be a colonisation exclusively of convicts; whereas
the safety of a colony depended on mixing those per-
sons, after some time, with free settlers. The object of
that was, that it should be a colony of convicts removed
from Van Diemen's Land and settled in North Aus-
tralia.

Lord STANLEY observed that they were to hold
tickets of leave.

Earl GREY believed that that circumstance made
no difference whatever, fo'r they should start with con-
victs only; there were to be no free settlers, no capi-
talists to give them employment; they were to be main-
tained at the first onset at the expense of the British
Treasury; and if it were necessary to have recourse to
such expenditure, why remove them at all? He had no
objection to leave them to find their own way from Van
Diemen's Land with tickets of leave, and obtain em-
ployment in the adjacent colonies, but he did object bjectto
any system which set out by planting any c
exclu-
sively with such persons. It had been said that they
could not dispose of their convict population under the
arrangements now in course of progress; but the mis-
chief foemerly was, that they sent out those persons too
rapidly, and did not take proper measures to prevent
those frightful evils which afterwards followed.
In the first place,
by the old system, the territorial reve-
nue of the colony was taken away, leaving no means
of employing convicts on useful or profitable public
Works. These regulations were now altered. No
charge was, in, the first place, made for convict
labour employment on useful works beyond the
charge of their mere superintendence; the consequence
of which was, that Sir W. Denison was at that moment
constructing bridges, making public roads, and other
public improvements in Van Diemen's Land, and a fund
kept up at the same time to defray
the expenses which
fell on them. He (Earl Grey) for one, regarded all the
sums of money received for the sale of land, not as
revenue for the ordinary expenses of a colony, but
money which ought to be expended in public improve-
ments, and that land ought not to be given as a free
gift, Cut exposed for sale, lest it should fall into the
bands of men who would not turn it to the best account.
If land were given for nothing it. would no doubt fall
into the hands of those Who could not use it properly.—
(Hear. hear.) At the conclusion of the late war, grants
of laud were given in New South Wales to settlers, on
condition of their taking and employing a certain num-
ber of convicts. That system was carried out under
Lord Bathurst with the most complete success, and the
regulations now about to be proposed would be, as
far as circumstances permitted, of a similar
character. Then, with regent! to Western Australia,
it Ras no doubt a small colony, but one possessed of
great natural advantages, having abundauce of timber,
cotton, cattle, and a great variety of food, and when con-
vict labour was employed on roads, in the erection of
bridges, and other public improvements, he firmly be-
lieved Western Australia would afford a gradually in-
creasing field to convicts. He (Earl Grey) was averse
to large establishments of penal convicts; he believed,
however, they [night be conducted with advantage, on a
limited scale, by having public works carried on with
the aid of convicts with tickets of leave. Dispatches
had been laid on their Lordships' table, that evening,
from Van Diemen's land, showing that the colony was
aserabepilDogym ent
in every apartment—thatd
C a t d t iA
shipry i V
bas
building
findingwas
rising
car-
riedrapfelly—
on to a large extent—and also a trade of great im-
portance in the export of timber—steamers were con-
stantly ruuning from Van Diemen's Land to the ad-
joining colonies, in which men who obtained a con-
ditional pexdon could go in search of employment, and
that also was an inducement for men who possesvd
tickets of leave to obtain tickets of pardon. With regard
to the resistance which may be expected in Van Die-
naelfa Laud, he (Earl Grey)- regretted extremely that

his Noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) said so much as an
encouragement to such an opposition. He, however, did
not anticipate any such thing; this objection to the re-
ception of convicts was now much less than in 1846, and it
was a most unfounded assertion to make, th©t the Go-
vernment was in fault, in exciting that opposition by the
language which had been used. He himself believed that
the fteiing among the cflonists against the reception of
convicts arose from the system of road gangs which pre-
vailed, for before its introduction the feelings of the peo-
ple of Van Diemen's Land was in favour of their being
sent among them.
Lord STANLEY said that transportation to New
South Wales was put an end to before the system of
road gangs was introduced.
Earl GREY continued to observe that the plan of
having road gangs was no new thing, and it was from
the abuse of the system they felt they were justified in
opposing the reception of convicts altogether. He was,
however, bound to say, that Parliament would not be
justified to yield in such a matter hastily to the people
of Van Diemen's Land, on such a subject. It was not
with them as with the people of the Cape, which was at
all times a free colony, and into which, without the con-
sent of the inhabitants, it would be unjust to tend a con-
vict population. It was, however, otherwise with Van
Diemen Land ; many millions of money were ex-
pended in making it fit f ir convicts, and the free settlers
had no right to complain now of its existence among
them. He, for one, believed the authority of the Crown
and of Parliament ought not to be set aside by those to
whom free institutions were given ; and although, cer-
tainly, it was the duty of the Government at home not
to send out any which might be injurious, they bad a
right to expect, and to insist on, sending convicts tht re
and not to be driven to seek in another part of the world,
at a vast expense, another penal colony.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
CASE OF MR. C. NASLI.

Earl GRANVILLE, who spoke in so low a tone as to
be utterly inaudible, after having exonerated Mr. C. Nash
from any intention of committing a fraud upon the
House by the course he pursued on a late occasion,
moved that ho be called to the bar and reprimanded.
Mr. C. Nash then appeared, and after stating various
additional reasons in exculpation of his conduct, and as
a justi&cation of the course he pursued,
Lord CAMPBELL, being stated on the Woolsack
and covered, said—Charles De Lacy Nash, the miscon-
duct by which you have incurred the displeasure of the
House is that of having made a return which you were
not required to make, and of having made it without the
authority of the railway company to which you professed
to be secretary. The House has hopes that you were
not actuated in this matter by any fraudulent or malicious
motives; but at the same time the House has had reason
to be greatly dissatisfied with your conduct, it being cal-
culated to mislead the House, and to do injury to the
company of which you are considered to have been an
offieer. The House has resolved that you be repri-
manded, and you are reprimanded accordingly, and dis-
charged.
Their Lordships then adjourned.
-4as
HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 12.

The SPEAKEIt took the Chair at Four O'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.
The following Bills were read a second time and
passed :—Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway; London-
derry and Enniskillen Railway.
The Colonization Assurance Company Bill, as
amended, was considered and agreed to.
The Croydon and Reigate Turnpike Road Bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
PETITIONS.

Mr. HUTT presentel a petition, praying for an in-
quiry into the loss sustained by parties in consequence
of the Danish blockade.
Mr. FOX MAULE presented some petitions from
places in Scotland against Sunday labour in the Post-
office; also a petition from Edinburgh against the Mar-
riage Bill.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the Ge-
neral Assembly of the Church of Scotland against the
Marriage Bill.
Mr. BECK ETT presented two petitions from Leeds
against Sunday labour i❑ the Post•otfice.
Mr. COMPTON presented a petition from Titchfield
against the duty on bops.
Mr. W. PATTEN presented several petitions from
various places in Lancashire against the Marriage
Bill; a petition from Comae in favour of the extension of
the jurisdiction of county courts ; a petition from
Charley against the Highway Bill; and a petition from
Whitehaven in favour of the extension of the County
Courts Act.
Mr. BROTHERTON presented a petition from Mid-
dlesborough against the duty on malt.
Colonel DUNNE eresentredi petition from Queen's
County against tie advertisement duty.
Mr. FLOYDIt presented a petition from a place in
Dorset against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also
two petitions from Halifax in favour of the County
Courts Extension Bill.

Mr. AGLIONBY presented a petition from Hertford
in favour of the Enfranchisement of Copyholds Bill; also
several petitions from places in Northumberland in
favour of international arbitration.

Colonel SIBTHORP presented a petition from Lin-
coln against Sunday labour in the Post-office.
Mr. E. LOCKHART presented a petition from the
proprietor, editor, and printers of the Border Advertiser
newspaper, Galashields, North Britain, in favour of a
repeal of the tax now levied upon newspaper advertise-
ments.
Mr. SADLIER presented a petition from the pro-
prietors, printers, and publishers of tho Carlow Sentinel
newspaper to th• same effect.
Mr. GRENFELL presented a petition from the pro-
prietors, printer, and publisher of the Preston Chronicle
newspaper to the same effect.
Mr. W. EVANS presented petitions from places in
Derbyshire i❑ favour of the County Courts Extension
Bill, against the Highway Bill, in savour of the Bill
for secular education, and against Sunday labour iu the
Post-office.

Sir C. BRUCE presented several petitions from places
in Elgin against Sunday labour in the Post-office; also
a pet►tion from the same county in favour of protect.on
to agriculture.

Mr. PETO presented a petition from Greenwich against
church-ra,es, and a petition from Norwich in favour cf
the Bill for secular education.

Mr. S. CRA WFORD presented a petition from a
place in Ireland against the Bill introduced by the Go-
vernment with respect to tenant right.
Mr. GOULBURN presented a petition from Bexley
against Sunday labour in the Post office.
Lord DRUMLANRIG presented a petition from
Dumfries against Sunday labour in the Post-office, and
a petition from Langholm against the Marriage Bill.
Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Boston
against the Highway Bill, and a petition from the same
place in favour of the Bill for the rating of small tene-
ments.

Mr. WAWN presented a petition from South Shields
against the Mercantile Marine Bill.
Lord DUNCAN presented a petition from Ashton-
under-Lyne, and other places in Lancashire, praying for
a repeal of the window-tax.
Mr. COBDEN presented nine petitions from places in
Wiltshire in favour of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill; also
a poligon from the same county against church-rates.
Lord H. VANE presented a petition from Stockton•
upon• Tees against church-rater, and a petition from
Derby in favour of county financial boards.
Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a place in
Dorsetsbire against church-rates, and seven petitions
from Colne, and other places in Lancashire, in favour
of a Ten Hours' Factory Bill.
Mr. COWAN presented several petitions from places
in the county of Edinburgh against Sunday labour in
the Post-office, and against the Marriage Bill.
Lieutenant Colonel BOYLE presented a petition from
Frome against the,punishment of death; also a petition
from Lord Abergavenny against the Copyhold Enfran-
chisement Bill.

Mr. 0. DUNCOMBE presented several petitions
from places in the West Riding of Yorkshire complain-
ing of agricultural distress.

Mr. EWART presented a petition from Dumfries
against the Marriage Bill.
Mr. A. STAFFORD presented a petition to the same
effect.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from Arbroath
praying for the repeal of the taxes on knowledge.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice that on Monday he
should move that the return ordered in the eiirly part
of the session relative to the expenditure on Royal Pa-
lates be forthwith laid on the table.
Mr. CHARLES LUSHINGTON gave notice that on
Monday he should move for copies of all correspondence
which has passed between the Dean and Chapter of
Rochester and the Ecclesiastical Commissioners since
the 29th of January on the subject of the allowance
made to the scholars of Rochester Cathedral.
-
METROPOLITAN SEWERS.
Sir B. HALL wished to asked the Noble Lord the
Chairman of the Metropolitan Commission of Sewers,
whether the Commissioners had determined upon any
principle of drainage for that part of the metropolis
north of the Thames, and if the outfall is to be in that
river; also, whether tke Giminissioners intend to levy
any additional amount of rate on the inhabitants of the
metropolis, and, if so, what amount of rate in the pound
they propose to levy for the current year. He also wished
to know whether it was the intention of the Commis-
sioners to make any report to the Secretary of State for
the Home Department on the subject.
Lord EBRINUTON must demur to the title which the
Hon. Baronet had honoured him with. It was quite
true that when he had attended the meetings of
the Commissioners, Cie Commissioners had gone-
rally done him the honour of voting him
into the chair, but he must disclaim the title of being
considered the permanent chairman of the board.
With regard to the question which the lion. Baronet
had put to him, he could only state that the drainage
and outfall of the sewers of the metropolis had been and
was still under the serious consideration of the Commis-
sioners. So soon as the works had been agreed upon
by the Commissioners the public would have notice. He
could only say the Commissioners would have the power
to levy whatsoever rates were necessary for the due exe-
cution of the work, but those rates would be made easy
of payment by being spread over a number of years.
BOARD OF HEALTH.
Sir BENJAMIN HALL asked the Secretary of
State for the Home Department when tha report from
the Board of Health would be presented, in order:that a
time may be fixed for the second reading of Bills for
alf,rding a batter supply of water to the met:opolis.
Sir GEORGE GREY thought the report would bo
ready in about three weeks.
STAMP DUTIES BILL.
In reply to a question from Sir H. WILLOUGHBY,
as to whether or not the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was disposed to postpone the Stamp Duti,?s Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQ UER tsaid he
thought there was no necessity for any, fui•ther concilia-
tion, with parties affected by this J3iII, because the -