The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

ought to recollect the application of the word "alien" to the
Irish. -
The LORD CHANCELLOR—WeII, but that was two
Parliaments back—( Great laughter.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY—That was the best'
defence of the expression, then, which it appeared the Noble
and Learned Lord had it in his newer to make.—(Laughter.)
Well, he must say, he thought it was too serious a subject to
jest upon, and he was sorry to be conpelled to think that neither
two Parliaments, ncr many more, perhaps, than two Parlia-
rungs, would suffice to do away with the evil effects it had
produced.—( Hear, hear.) And in the days when that ex-
pression was used—in I,gal—other phrases were used whose
effect had scarcely been less injurious. It was the common
saying, if not of the Noble Lords then on the Ministerial
benches, certainly of those who were their adherents, that the
Government of that day was solely kept in office by the Irish.
By making this distinction, they were as effectually departing
from the principles of the union as any repealer ever did, and the
intention t o be implied could only be that they looked upon Ireland
as a province, instead of an integral portion of the British em-
pire.—( Herne hear.) In that opinion he was supported by a
very high authority—indeed, no less than that of an honoured
friend of his now in the grave. He alluded to the late Baron
Smith, father of the Attorney-General fur Ireland, and of
whom hereafter he should have a few words to say.—( Hear,
and a laugh.) In the year 1833, Baron Smith, not speaking
amongst private friends, or even at a public meeting, but from
the judgment-seat, bad declared that as long as England was
true to the principles of the union, it ought to last, and would
last; but should the time arvive when she looked upon her as
a province, instead of a part of England—( Hear, hear)—then
her independence as a nation would be claimed by her people.
Such was the opinion of Baron Smith. But the real fact was,
that the Noble Lords opposite were always attempting to act
upon a system which must defeat itself—they were always
trying to govern Ireland by a minority of her people—a princi-
ple which never had succeeded, and never would succeed.
Was that attempt made in Canada? It was there felt that the
only way to secure the affections of the people was to govern
through a majority, and not through a minority. And what-
ever exorbitant pretensions might have grown out of the course
of proceeding adopted their, he thought they were more than
counterbalanced by the advantages which had been gained. It
had been often said that all the influence of himself and his
Noble friend behind him, in Ireland, was owing to the patron-
age being placed at the disposal of Mr. O'Connell. It
had been found necessary to place the patronage in
Canada, with a very slight reservation, in the hands of those
who represented the majority of their countrymen. He would
take this opportunity of re!erring to what he had said on this
subject on the motion of the Noble Earl in the year 1837.
The Noble Marquis then quoted his own words with respect to
the distribution of patronage, declaring that though Mr.
O'Connell had occasional communications with him, his appli-
cations on the subject of patronage were fewer than those of
almost any other Member of Parliament, whilst he did not in
the least bind or control the exercise of his judgment. He
did not deny that the Government consulted Mr. O'Connell in
reference to many appointments; and with reference to the charge
of receiving from him support, he honestly confessed that this
was a circumstance which, considering how he carried with
him the hearts and affections of the Irish people, formed any-
thing but a cruse of regret. Such was the statement
which he made in 1837 ; and he appealed to his successors,
whether the appointments which he had made, whether in
the Church, the law, or the police, had not been marked by
an efficient discharge of the vario s duties to beperformed.—
( Hear, hear.) He had felt that the great difficulty of go-
verning Ireland arose from the way in which the Catholic
question was carried, the persons by whom it was carried, and
the time at which it was carried—being thirty
years later than it should have been. It was
unfortunate that the Relief Bill should have been
carried at the sacrifice of public character ; and with respect
to the mode, it was coupled with many provisions which were
utterly useless in themselves, and diminished the gratitude of
the Irish people. But that question having been carried, I
think it unnecessary to advert to the succeeding tears, when I
was employed in another part of the world. At the same time
he could nut pass over those years in the presence of his Noble
and Gallant Friend behind him without rendering a tribute to
his zeal in the cause of Irelsrel, and to his love for the Irish
people, displayed amidst difficulties from all quarters, and at
a time when he was thwarted by those from whom he
might have looked for support.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
One of the great objects of his Government, and that of his
Noble Friend behind him, was to purify the administration of
justice, and restore the confidence of the people in that ad-
ministration. The abstract love of justice which Sir John
Davis spoke of as animating the Irish people still remained
among them ; it had lasted so long, perhaps from its being in
Ireland a rare luxury.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) 'I he Go-
vernment. by the dismissal of the magistrates, struck a great
blow at that confidence. It was said to have been done in
consequence of declarations made in that House of Parliament.
This seemed to have some insincerity, as it was impossible to
believe that the Chancellor of Ireland did not know what were
the views oh his Government with respect to repeal. When
a Viceroy of Ireland was once attacked in that House on some
question, he defended himself, by stating that he never read the
newspapers.— ( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The dismissed
magistrates when charged, might have said the same. Minis-
ters had occasionally made many declarations on different sub-
jects—on the Catholic question, on the corn-laws—and those
declarations had clever been followed out; nay, the persons
who made them had been the first to act against them.--
( Hear and laughter). The dismissal of the magistrates was
an utterly inefficient step; more deliberate notice ought to
have been taken. Again, the people of Ireland had confi-
dence in the stipendiary magistrates, and the first step of the
Government was to dismiss ten of them. With respect to
their law appointments, again, they were particularly unfor-
tunate. Who was the first judge appointed? Baron Lefroy,
who, soon after the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Act,
was not allowed to go the circuit, on account of some declara-
tion he made qualifying his allegiance in consequence of the
passing of that Act. Another question, in which the Irish
people were-much interested, was that of national education.
Yet another judge they anointed was Mr. Sergeant Jackson,
who was violently opposed to it. But all sunk into insignifi-
cance compared with the appointment of Mr. Smith to the
Attorney-Generalship of Ireland. At a meeting in Dublin
in the year 1637, when all those in attendance were of one
party and the same politics as himself, that gentleman was re-
ported to have said of the Roman Catholics that he was sorry
to say that circumstances induced him to believe that they
(the Romau Catholics) had very little regard for the sanctity
of an oath, and had very little hesitation in violating
their consciences. Such a statement as that ought
to hare been a lasting die ittalification for any office
under Government. If Mr. Smith did not believe what
he then said, but had uttered it in the excitement of a party
speech, he showed a deficiency of judgment, and discretion,
and every qualification which Noble Lords should have sought.
in the person to be appointed to such an office as that of At-
torney-General. But if he did believe it, then he (the Mar-
quis of Normanby) must say that the unhappy man who
entertained such a belief of not only seven-eighths of his
countrymen, but also of the majority of the Christian world,
was totally unfit for the situation he now filled. It was not his
intention to attack Mr. Smith, but rather the Government
through Mr. Smith—the Government that had appointed such
a gentleman to office. He must say it was highly improper
for a Government to have as Attorney-General a person
whom they could never raise to the bench ; for it W 23 utterly
impossible for any Government ever to raise Mr. Smith to the
bench. With respect to the prosecutions and the charge of
conspiracy, he only repeated now what he had stated
in the commencement of his observations on the subject, viz.
that he thought it the ditty of Government, if they had had
evidence of seditious meetings, and libels, to have prosecute d
directly for those charges, and not to have introduced this
new system of a monster indictment with all that accumulation
of charges. The effect of it would be to excite in a portion of
the English people, who would otherwise he indifferent to the
state of Ireland, a feeling that there was unfairness in the con-
duct of the affair. With respect to the panel of the jury, the
only answer that was given to account for the omission of the
Roman Catholics from it was, that the slip containing their
names had been lost. He thought that the first object in a
matter such as this should have been to have impannelled a fair
and impartial jury, and could that be expected where there
was a total exclus on of Catholics?
The Duke of WELLINGTON (emphatically)—Yes.
The Marquis of NORMANI3Y would ask, was not this a
question between the Catholics and Protestants of Ireland— did
not the opposite party appeal directly to the Protestants to
come forward and register ? 'The Government ought to have
taken special care to have chosen a jury which could not be
subject to the imputation of partiality. In support
of his opinion, he would read to their Lord-
ships an extract from the Dublin Evening Muil.
The purport of that extract was that all questions resolve
.themselves into one of religion arid not of politic., and that
the agitation which was now carried on was solely dependent
upon religious animosity. Those were the words of the organ
of the Tory party. With respect to the formation ot the jury,
therefore, he should say that it was most open to the imputa-
tion of partiality. As to the charge of the Chief Justice cf
Ireland, he (tire Marquis of Normanby) was perfectly well
aware of the various difficulties by which the Learned
Judge was surrounded, but he felt almost deluded into the
idea when he was reading the Learned Judge's charge that
he was reading tile speech of the Solicitor-General instead.
He would not further refer to the conduct of the Judge than
to say that it was, happily, usual to find them adopting a
very diffetnt tone and manner wheu addressing juries in the
courts of England. A Noble Friend behind him had called
his attention to a circumstance in which another Irish
-Judge shone, in a manner more conspicuous than
creditable. On a trial for political libel, in charging the jury,
that Learned Judge was reported to have said—et Gentlemen of
the jury, this is a most diabolical libel, and that is not mincing
the matter."—( Laughter.) Very happy was he (Lord
Normanby) to think that a very different tone and manner
prevailed in the courts of justice in England.--( Hear, hear. )
There were many subjects in connexion with the state of Ireland
to which he shotesl have liked to have directed their Lordships'
consideration, especially with regard to the appointments made
by the Government ; but he thought it would be better, under
all the circumstances, to postpone them for the present. Were
their Lordships indisposed, at a future period, to grant him an
inquiry, at all events he should have an opportunity, in
moving for papers, to bring those matters before their Lord.
ships and the country. There was, however, one matter
which he could not refrain from alluding to at the present mo-
ment. It referred to a clerical appointment, and was woeli
the consideration of their Lordships. It had pleased a Right
Bon. Baronet in the other House (Sir Robert Peel), when
Yeading a letter of instruction to the Lord-Lieutenant in Ire-
land, on the subject of clerical appointments, to do him (Lord
Normanby) the honour of complimenting him on the judg-
ment he had shown in his selections. ) Hap-
pily, he (Lord Normanby) could appeal to that Ijouse, in
reference to his appointments, for, on a former occasion, Noble
Lords lead expressed their approval of them. lie begged, how-
ever, to ask Noble Lords on the Treasury benches whether,
of all clerical candidates for honours and appointments in Ire-
land, they held the Rev. Holt Waring to be most qualified, by
quiet, unobtrusive
hurnility of demeanour, and
the duties of his sacred office ?—( performance of
Hear, hear.) In an account
-which he had read, in a Government newspaper, of the famous
meeting at Hillsborough, it was stated, in the description he
referred to, that " in a few minutes the first detachmentheaded
by the Rev. Holt Waring, arid preceded by the union
swas now seen descending the hill—a close, dark, intents massjack,
ewf human beings, comprising not less than twenty_ thousand
men. This, the first detachment, under the Rev. Dean"
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—Very like the parish priests, --
The Marquis of NORAIANBY—In his zeal to defend his
partisan, the Noble Lord casts a slur on the parish priests.
Lord WHARNCLIF7E—Oh, dear! Now, go on.
The Marquis of NORMANI3Y—" The first detachment
under the Rev. Dean having halted, expressed their thanks
in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three hearty
tzbeers for him, and then, deploying round, took up the position
asigned to them." Now he asked Noble Lords was not this
military array? Was it not the church militant in a most dis-
creditable position, and did the Government prosecute Mr.
Waring?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the Seeretary for
Ireland, at the time of his election, had repeated the declara-
tions of Sir Robert Peel on assuming the reins of Government
—that the policy of the Government in respect to
Ireland should be of a generous and conciliatory cha-
:racter. This promise was made in 1841, and the only
• generous Bill which had been passed was the Arms' Bill.—
scteis4rhter.) With reference to that Bill, he thought what
ihaeteetaeurred was calculated to revive the apprehensions which
-were oe:ginally entertained as to the manner in which it would
be executed.—(Hear, hear.) But for the presence of Mr.
Gore Joaes, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates would
have done what the Government which brought in the Bill
declared was never intended.—(Hear, hear.) Now, having

given this notice of motion, he might be expected to say a few
words on some of the topics which had been opened in the petition
presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable num-
ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ire-
land. He could not avoid saying that he considered that the
present state of the Irish Church required further inquiry, and
that, always taking it as the first object, that that Church
should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Ireland,
the whole question should be open for the consideration of Par-
liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinctions
which existed between the two religions should be done away ;
and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland
that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of
equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where
there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro-
testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal
footing.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of
the Union, that it was not easy to say, on general prin-
ciples, what system of church establishment would be
free from difficulty. By many it was considered that the re •
ligion of the majority should be placed on an equal footing with
that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with-
out qualification forgot the relation between English and Irish
interests. Whilst Ireland remained a separate kingdom, said
Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholics
without endangering the stability of the Constitution itself.
These words were perfectly consistent with the article of the
Union, which maintained that the Established Church in Ire-
land should be united to the Established Church in England,
but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as the
Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstance
that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery in
Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing.
There was much in all this that called for their serious atten-
tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy,
without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that
the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi-
tion to be brought forward. He was borne out in this opinion
by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union.
He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the
clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser
viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must
be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income
for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for political
apostacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having
taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there
was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap-
plied. But he could not mention that body, which had been so
much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise
for the activity and zeal with which they had always assisted
him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear,
hear.) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune
and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that coun-
try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people
arose much more from their relations with man
than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in
the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, was
there a people among whom the domestic virtues were
more universally practised. No, it was the great struggle
for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them,
from which all the:r misery arose. With respect to the ques-
tion of the Iri-h franchise, the declaration lately made by the
Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, after
the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number
of electors in England and Scotland was 850 000 ; in Ireland
it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they
took the numbers of the Members with respect to the
population, the disproportion was the same. ( Hear. )
One of the complaints of the Irish people seas, that their inte-
rests were neglected and the resources of their country not
developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament
sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those
were matters which demanded further consideration. They
embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people,
who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of
Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran-
chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect
equality with England as respected representation. The
other night he had adverted 'in a few words to the
Landlord and Tenant Commission. He regretted that
something more satisfactory had not been elicited by
some of his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject.
However, there could be no doubt that the relation
of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration.
It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland
that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence—
that he had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not
exist elsewhere. He did not recommend " fixity of tenure.'
As the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in
the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what
was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion
which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm
where produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of
tent was [OOl., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce,
the landlord received for rent 100/. That account was taken
from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr.
Wiggins, who had beer. appointed to inquire and report upon
the subject. With respect to the commission of crime
in Ireland, he thought that the time had passed
by when certain specific crimes committed against
landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of indi-
viduals as they should be, were attributed to the religion of
the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late
Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been
Catholic policemen, and that that outrage was a part of a re-
ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normahby) was
happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in-
dividual who had so distinguished himself in defence of his
master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. He would
wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa-
tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was
not so different from that of this country, because there civilisa-
tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence
a right thinking spirit of public opinion was being created, and
this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also
extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the
medium of the press, were closely observing the conduct of this
country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car-
ried away in expressing his opinions by his partiality towards
Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the
wants and grievances of that country ; but still he could calmly
say, that any one who (independent of political considerations)
looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that
the misery of the country was solely to be attributed to the
misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord-
ships were prepared to go on governing through the me-
dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and
to abide by the result of partial administration of justice, when
a prosecution was before the Courts, which vitally affected the
interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from
the jury all those belonging to the faith professed by the great
body of the people—if they were inclined to exhibit to the
nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the
finest country—and the most peaceable at present—in a state
of military occupation, they would pursue the course which
had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and
reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and
affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to
the empire, and security to the throne, they sh mid redress the
grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar-
quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer
to her Majesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty
that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing
from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which
proceedings are pending before the proper legal tribunals, feel it
in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor-
tunity, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds
of the jury, to record their intention to examine into the causes
of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country :
also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, and the
restoration of confidence, this House look to the development
of the only tine principles of a perfect union, by securing to her
Majesty's subjects, of all classes and persuasions, in all parts of
the United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights."
Lord NV HARNCLIFFB said that when his Noble Friend
yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' House, the
resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, he
confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap-
pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in
them. He at once understood the course which was being
taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the
ehole [louse, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro-
duced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee,
charging himself and friends on the present Government with
the commission of high and grave offences. There was no-
thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the
Noble Marquis ; but what was wanting in this respect in the
resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro-
duced them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis undoubtedly
had made very serious charges against the Government in his
speech. Well, he ( Lord Wharncliffe) was quite ready
to meet them.—(Cheers.) His charges were distinctly
made—he would meet him distinctly upon them. He
would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect
to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the
mind of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most
dangerous and illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble
Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this con-
spiracy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning.
He said there were two courses open to the Government. One
of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and
wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to
be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to
take instant and determined measures at once to put an end
to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they
abandoned without reason. Now he ( Lord Wharncliffe) would
prove the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.—
( [fear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government
never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these
meetings to go on, they would wear themselves out. They
saw from the first that there was danger to the
peace of the country from these meetings. They thought
then, as they thought now, that the bringing of
great bodies of people together, and the trying to
force these people on by exciting speeches to a particular line
of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—(Cheers). They
prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings,
but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a
good opportunity when their determination could successfully
be put in force.—(Hear, hear.) The question was to prove
to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, and to the satisfaction
of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that
these meetings were illegal, and that they ought to be sup-
pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the
meetings were for an illegal purpose. He quite agreed with
the Noble Marquis, that to seek for a repeal of the union was
not illegal in itself—to seek for that was clearly every man's
right who might desire the change; but the offence here was
for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably
were of an illegal character.—(Cheers.) The Government
had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner
acting. They had been called a do-nothing Government for
allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it
did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they
could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other hand,
said, now that they had interfered, " Oh, you should have let
the meetings wear themselves out." And had they done so,
and the meetings had still gone on (for wear themselves out
they would not have done, and well their opponents knew it),
then these very persons would have been the first to upbraid
and to taunt them for doing so. He said, then, their business,
before they did anything else, was to take such time, and adopt
such measures, as would ensure success at a blow, which they
had from the first determined to give to this agitation. But
the Noble Lord blamed them above all for their conduct at
Clontarf. Why he did not believe the Noble Marquis knew
what he was talking about when he said that this Clon-
tarf meeting was to be the last. Why, at that very time ar-
rangements had been made fur holding six or seven more such
meetings. Now let it be recollected that, although at Tara
and Mullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most
unjustifiable character, that those designed to be enacted
at Clontarf were of a far worse character.—( Hear.) At
Clontarf not only were those attending to be marshalled, but
they were to be marshalled in military array—and those who
attended on horseback were to be forme i into troops, each one
with 'its officers at its head.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear. )
It was true that after these first arrangements had been
a
pro-
mulgated from the Corn Exchange,ttheeymw—ere(Hweiatrh,drhawenr.—
and Mr. O'Connell had repudiated h
Another order of proceedings was issued, in which " group"
was substituted for troop," and " wards" for "wardens."
Then it was that the chain of evidence desired by thGo-
Govern-
went was perfected—then it was that they knew the time had
I arrived when, with sureness and safety, they might pro-
ceed.—( Loud cheers.) They had then evidence, and evi-
dence enough, of seditious words and seditious inten-
tions to complete a charge of conspiracy. And
when the time had arrived at which they knew they oould
safely proeeed, they had had time to bring to bear such a force
as might enable the Government to vindicate the law, and put
down that vile agitation and conspiracy, without shedding one
drop of blood.—(Loud cheers.) Now, with respect to the
lateness of the proclamation. The first notice given of the in•

fended meeting at Clontarf was on the 28th of September,
and at that time the Law Officers in Ireland thought the time
for adieu was come. On the 30th appeared the proclamation
of which he spoke. As soon as it was issued, it was sent over
by post, reaching London on Sunday, the Ist of October.
Lord De Grey was at that time in England on account of bad
health. He was in the neighbourhood of London, and was
immediately sent for to town. He arrived, and a consultation
took place of all those Ministers who, being in or near
London, could be get together. They determined to place
the whole proceedings of the Attorney-General of Ireland
before the Attorney-General for England. That learned func •
tionary took exactly the sally, vjew as the law officers for Ire-
land, and Lord De Grey ill quitted.London for Dublin.
In consequence, however, of the alteration in the wording of
the order for the proceedings at Clontarf, to which he had
already referred, it became a matter for consideration whether
some alteration would not be thus necessitated in the proclama •
tion. On Friday all proceedings were determined cn and
adopted, by which an end was to be put to the meetings, and
prosecutions commenced against the chief conspirators. It
was necessary to proceed very guardedly, in order that they
might do so safely and effectively. The moment the procla-
mation was issued persons were sent into every part of the city
of Dublin to give circulation to, and information of it ; and
for thirty miles round Dublin, persons were sent on
horseback, in every road and direction, to warn the
country people of the intentions of the Government.
They also took care that they should have a competent force
on the spot, and the meeting was prevented without a single
accident. Before he proceeded to the trials, he must say a few
words of the Attorney-General. He had no acquaintance
with him ; before he was appointed he had not seen him—he
had not even heard of him.—( A laugh.) It was his ignorance
of Ireland and the Irish bar ; but when he was appointed
they heard, even from their political opponents, the highest
praise of him—that they had chosen the best man they could
have taken for the office. The dismissal of the magistrates was
not put by the Chancellor entirely upon the question of re-
peal; but on the declaration of the Ministers in this House.
They were fairly answered, and though it had been said that
they might not read the newspapers, he thought that such
agitators were not likely to refrain from doing so. He then
came to the trials, and he defied the Noble Lord to lay his fin-
ger upon one part of the transaction that betrayed a disregard
of justice. With respect to the construction of the panel, it was
the traversers who objected to it; they objected to the old
one, because they thought it unfavourable to them. It had to
be made out by the:Recorder ; there might be great negligenceon his part, but the Government had nothing to do with
it. It was true some of the slips were lost, but in whose charge
were they ? In that of Mr. Magrath, and, he happened not to
be a partisan of the Government, but a Catholic. He then
came to the choice of the special jury. He apprehended that
the right of challenging the jury was given to the Crown for
the purpose of enabling the Crown to strike off such persons as
they might think unqualified or unduly bia serf. Now, they
had it on the affidavits of the traversers themselves, that two of
the twelve struck out were Protestants, ten were Catholics.
Of these, one was a Mr. Henrick, and it so happened that,
when Mr. Kemmis struck hint off, he was under the impression
that he was a Protestant. Another was a Mr. Michael Dunn,
he belonged to St. Patrick's parish, and St. Patrick's parish
was fruitful in Michael Dunn's ; there were no less that four,
and it was believed that this one was biassed. He denied al-
together that the striking off of the names arose from any
feeling that the Catholics were not to be believed
on their oaths, but because it was supposed that
persons who had already declared themselves on one side were
not to be placed on the jury. He hoped they should hear no
more of their having a packed jury,since all their object was to
secure to the accused a fair trial before God and their country.
So much for the trials upon which the Noble Marquis had
founded almost all his attacks on the Government. They
stood upon their defence here, and he said that this trial was
conducted with as much fairness as any trial was ever con-
ducted. They had done nothing unfair to procure a con•
viction, and the jury had only done their duty in returning their
verdict against the prisoners. He would leave it to the judg-
ment of the people of England, who, though they did
not actually hear what was passing in that House,
wee made acquainted with it in a very short
time. He would leave it to the people of England to say
whether they were nut acquitted upon this point. One word
of Mr. Smith, the Attorney-General. He lamented that he
should have placed himself in a position in which he could be
justly accused of indiscretion ; but he would leave it to their
Lordships whether there was not apoint beyond which provocation
could not be borne, and whether this gentleman was not sub-
jected to it ? And now, all thin having passed, the majesty of
the law having been vindicated, let them look forward and see
what could be done in the way of improvement.—
(Loud cheers.) With respect to the system of letting
land in Inland, there was a necessity for inquiry; it
would be desirable that in letting land, the landlord should do
justice tc the tenant. The next great question as to Ireland
was that of the registration. With respect to counties, a new
consideration of what was considered the beneficial interest,
would probably lead to a diminution of the number of voters
n counties. With respect to the towns, what the Government
intended to do was this : at present it was necessary, in order
to be able to vote, that the voter should have paid the poor-
rates, the taxes, the borough-rates, and some other rates.
They proposed to remove this restriction, and to enable the
person to vote if he had paid only the taxes and poor-rate.
With respect to the question of national education, it was con-
templated to take measures for the better education of masters
and mistresses, and also for the better visitation of schools.
The next question to which they meant to direct their attention
was to alter the existing law so as to enable money to be lodged
in trust, to be applied to the purchase of houses and glebes for
the Roman Catholic clergy, so that if a person wished to make
an endowment of lands to a certain priest officiating in a cer-
tain chapel, he might be enabled to do so. This led him to
the question of religious equality—putting the Roman Catholics
of Ireland on a complete footing of equality with the members
of the Established Church. Now at the time of the Act of
Union, the Established Church was acknowledged by that
great instrument, and this country was therefore bound
to support that arrangement. It was also acknow-
ledged, at the time of the passing of the Emancipation Act,
and the present Government were not prepared to take any
steps that might endanger the Established Church. They
would afford every facility to the Roman Catholics, consistent
with the maintenance of the Establishment ; but with respect to
producing an equality, how, he asked, was it to be effected ?
The Noble Lord then referred to the various modes which
had been pointed out of producing that result, and stated that
the present Government could not give its countenance to
any of them. There was one subject which he had almost
forgotten, it was that of Dean Holt Waring. His Noble
Friend had spoken of that person as having gone to attend
a meeting surrounded by a great crowd—a description which
would apply well to the manner in which the Romish (and he
did not use that term in an offensive way) clergy went to the
repeal meetings at the head of their parishioners. But if Mr.
Waring did act in that manner, on the occasion of a meeting
in favour of the Legislative Union, why, all he could say was
that he had acted improperly. Another accusation against the
present Government was that the majority of the Irish
people were not well disposed to the present Government. lie
admitted it. But England and Scotland, which constituted
the majority, supported them, and they did not rule by a
minority. They had done their utmost to gain their favour ;
but they (the Irish people) did not like them, and would net
support them. He was glad that his Noble Friend had
brought forward his motion, as it gave him an opportunity of
stating the views of the Government. They were the Minis-
ters of' the Crown, and it was their duty to maintain inviolate
the union between the two countries, to preserve the authority
of the Throne, and they were determined to support her Ma-
jesty in her resolution to preserve the supremacy of the law.
After a few words from the Marquis of N ORM ANBY in
explanation,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that there was
much in the tone of the Noble Lord ( Wharncliffe), with
whom he was highly gratified, but he regretted extremely that
he could not go further, and agree with the greater portion of
'what the Noble Lord had said. He was pleased with the tone
of the Noble Lord's remarks, but he could not forget that a
similar tone had been often observed before, and that the deeds
that followed were by no means consistent with the words.
With respect to some of the appointments of the present Go.
vernment in Ireland, the Noble Lord said that he had never
heard of them,
Lord WHARNCLIFFE—I said I had not heard of Mr.
Smith, as I did not frequent the law courts.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—The Noble Lord might
have frequented the law courts without hearing of Mr. Smith.
But he must say the Noble Lord had made a most inefficient
answer to the charges brought forward by his Noble Friend
(the Marquis of Normanby). The policy of the pre-
sent Government was to exclude Catholics, and there

fore the Irish, from a perfect equality with the rest
of the inhabitants of the empire. If these meetings
had been illegal, he thought that it was foreign from
the spirit and principles of the British Constitution to
allow them in the first instance to be holden without
reproof, and then to pounce upon the holders of them without
any previous notice or intention. He certainly thought that
the jury had found a conscientious verdict. Although he felt
perfectly convinced that the jury returned an honest verdict,
yet be should say that he was sure some of those gentlemen
were indicted for a conspiracy had not the slightest notion that
they were guilty of it; and he was sure that this was
the opinion of the great majority of the people of that
country. He should next allude to the celebrated
Clontarf proclamation, and he considered that to be,
in the manner in which it was issued, most unjustifiable.
If the Government could not have issued it at an earlier date
than the day before the meeting was appointed to be held, he
thought it would be much more becoming of a Christian Go-
vernment to have allowed one meeting more to be added to the
number which they had previously permitted.—( Hear.)
If her Majesty's Ministers were determined conscientiously to
uphold the present system of national education in Ireland
they ought to appoint to Church preferments those persons
who would act in harmony with such a system of national edu-
cation. But he thought it was evident, by recent appoint-
ments to Church preferment, that those who were thus
lately appointed were the very persons most opposed to the
system—persons distinguished by their hostility to national
education, as at present administered. As long as Government
gave their patronage thus, he (Lord Clanricarde) was sure
that the system of national education in Ireland could not be
properly carried out. With respect to the Landlord and
Tenant Commission, it was stated by a Noble Lord that no
injustice should be done to the landlord ; at the same time it

should be remembered that no iNustice ought to be done
to the tenant.---(Hear, hear.) fhe Noble Lord referred

to the relative position of landlord and tenant in England.
It Nas said that the proportion of rent from the soil in Eng-
land was one-third of the produce, and in Ireland two-thirds.
Now he (Lord Clanricarde) would engage to show that there
were tenants in Ireland, not one here and there, but many,
very many, andof a class, too, not holding beneficial leases, who
had made considerable sums of money, paying cheerfully and
comfortably to their landlords the rent agreed upon. He did
not allude to farmers having their hundreds of acres, but to
_ .

cotters renting thirty, twenty, and even twelve acres of land.
Now when he knew these facts from his own experience, he,
for one, neither would join the outcry raised against the land-
lords of Ireland, nor permit that outcry to go uncontradicted.
Why, had the landlords of Ireland no higher motive—were
they actuated by no nobler feelings—their own interest would
hinder them from pursuing any course that might be of in-
jurious tendency to their tenantry. Therefore, he did say
that the Landlord and Tenant Commission, having been
issued at a time when great crimes had been committed in Ire-

land, those crimes being- in connexion with the holding of land,
that such was a most rash proceeding on the part of the Go-
vernment, subjecting the landlords of Ireland—as it did—to

_ .
imputations of a very serious character, and which they did
not, by any means, merit. He would say a few
words, and a few only, on the subject of the Poor-law Inquiry,
in which was recommended a series of measures which, if acted
upon in a combined form, would be of the most essential service
in remedying some of the most crying afflictions of Ireland.
He alluded to all the remedies suggested, for they were all
valuable, but he especially regarded with favour the recom-
mendations as to emigration and a sustained system of public
works.—( Hear, hear.) These reports were in their Lordships
library, but he very much doubted whether many of their
Lordships had taken the trouble to consult them—he doubted
even if any of her Majesty's Ministers in that House had done
so.—( A laugh.) Let but those recommendations he put in
force conterlsoraneously and on a clear intelligible principle,
and they would soon be satisfied that they had hit upon a most
efficacious remedy for many of the most deep—seated grievances
under which the sister country suffered. In conclusion he
would say, that no one could consider Ireland at the present
time to be under any civil government whatever, and the
Ministry were not going the right way so to place it. The
only way in which they now kept it tranquil was by an immense