The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-12 00:00:00

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point at which the first portion of the line would ter-
Idt'tc. He need not remind the House that for some
time after the Bill was applied for to make a railway be.
t
ween Liverpool and Manchester, little or nothing was
of of the passenger traffic—it was scarcely mentioned,
the whole reliance of the promoters being upon the goods
516 e. Ile would not then venture to prophecy what
ilWould
be the result in Indic, but he thought they would
ate 'nine grounds for anticipating a similar result. He
assured the Noble Lord that the East India Company
Wersaperfectly disposed to extend to Madras the same
Kai
, .eges as the other presidencies—it was a ques-
vutl°9
with them of time and not one of preference.
Kith regard to the line from Madras to Arcot, it was
:ecessary to consider it with reference to the general
/stew of railways proposed for India, and it was
doubted whether that -line would answer the require.
4nents that Mr. Sans bade desirable, or whe-
ther •
t would not be more sable to have a
h f
e More to the north-west to join the general system
Which was so he carried out from Bombay. He would
lerll, tad the House• that the system on which the East
4'4 Company had undertaken these railways was in it-
Of novel. The Company gave the land free, and gua-
ranteed to the railway companies interest upon the
'aPital at the rate of five per cent. for ninety-nine
/cell's. And at any time during that period the railway
I.)3lPany could call upon the Indian Government to pay
jot' the railway at prime cost. A statement had found
byWay into some of the Indian papers that had arrived
by
one of the last Foals to the effect that some eneineer-
xug difficultiea had been discovered with regard to the
alastruction of railways in India, and that they had
beens, abandoned altogether. That statement, it was
aaliost needless to say, was quite unfounded. He should
et°4clude by assuring the Noble Lord and the House
114:at the East India Company had already anticipated
rfo, having some time since dispatched letters to the
oaernmeot of Madras, calling upon them to furnish
forthwith all the information that was required, in order
to 1) extend the same facilities to that province as had
e been afforded to the other presidencies, and no time
e
caild be lust in extending the same advantages and en.
e°l2ragetnent to it as the others.—(Bear, hear.)
~.
AGLIONBY was prepared to give his cordial
oPPort to any proposition fur carrying out the benefit
of railway commuuication in India. lie thought there
ought to be an ex officio director sitting at the boards of
Jest) railways, fur the purpose of exercising some effi-
-I,,srit control over their management. He thanked the
the Rouse,
who had eo ably brought the subject before
jhe Rouse, because it afforded the opportunity of clear-
away many doubts and misconceptions that existed
Po!:t the subject.
81r E. COLEBROOKE thought the Indian public
could
be obliged to the Noble Lord for having drawn
attention to the subject, and was glad the Government
d announced that this line was only the commence-
a ll
ent of a far more extensive project which they had in
contemplation.
t thought that a railroad from Allababad
Delhi, with branches to the military stations, would
:ofer the greatest benefit upon India, and the saving
&Elioll it would effect in life, labour, military stores,
passes
'would in a period of about five years defray the ex-
Vses of the construction of the railroad. He did not
14k it very satisfactory to hear that only 70 miles of
iWay out of 400 were all that we were seeking to
There ought to be a railway from Madras to
je°l:nbay. The result of such a work would be most
itletsortant, both in a political as well as a commercial
•11 Sir 3 C. HOBHOLTSE said from his long and intimate
hnciwledge of his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose,
,yaust say that it was not easy to satisfy him on any
Vint; but he (Sir J. Hobhouse) agreed with him in all
said as to the importance of railways in India. He
thaB exceedingly glad that the Noble Lord had brought
k a question forward ; for by his experience and his
il°wn attachment to India—having fill, d an office in the
fats Government that was connected with that part of
the s
a,atarlot—he was most competent to speak upon the
grJect. When the question came more fully before the
?,t!se, he hoped he would be able to show that the East
41a Company had not slumbered at its post, nor for-
gotten what was its duty as regarded its own interests
I,_ Well as regarded the millioas of people entrusted to
care. Th reasons why the Madras Railway Com•
FtlY did not receive that encouragement which the
:?Yernment had hitherto afforded to the other two
j"fay companies were these. It was certainly the
iitention of the East India Company and the India
,etes,4l'd to give the Madras Company rather a
s,eference, if it were possible, but that company
:tilt
of itself before we could assist it. But the
:tat of encouragement to these railways generally was
w`tributable to those disgraceful transactions which he
n,tasorry to say historically stigmatised this country.—
`4 eisr, hear.) These disgraceful transactions, he re-
apatted to say, were not confined to those who might
Ott be supposed to have as nice a sense of honour as
l'kers, but were spread amongst the educated and the
~her classes of society.—(Hear, hear.) They were to,be
Otld amongst that class tc which the people of England
1114 d been long accustomed to look up, not only for the
ta4/ttnes of their laws, but also fur the formation of their
)o,4llners.—(Hear, hear.) Such proceedings as those to
Chip
he had referred had brought discredit upon all
t'"'inys, and the failure of the efforts of the East India
w°4lPany, which were honestly made to carr out
.these
1k,Z48, must be attributed to this cause. flad it not
for the state of the money market we should have
i4tl the Madras Railway carried on with the same
144 ae that in which the Bombay and Ben-
Zlll Railway had been proceeded with. He.
lawever had no doubt that at this time next
Ira
we shall be ale'e to congratulate the House and
*a country on the progress made in the Madras Rail-
, 44,,Y. In reference to the question whether it would be
t°ea that these railways should be constructed by com-
illies or upon the responsibilities of the Government,
would remind the H. that it was very fully dis-
th
C6'ed when the Noble Lord held office iu the Board of
liantrol, in 1845. And it was then determined by the
q()hle Lord that they should not be carried on by the
.13,rernment of India, nor by the Government at home,
by the companies themselves that undertook these
!test works in India. He (Sir J. Hubhonse) thought
hatts it we uld have been much wiser for the Government
ill undertake the construction of them. The advantages
at would have accrued to them in the transport of
P 8 and stores, and in the traffic that would be
em along the route, would have soon compensated
toatn for the 1,000,000/. or 2,000,0001. spent upon their
astruction.—(Hear, hear.) The question, however,
pl)°,, to be considered was, how they could pro-
erly encourage the companies that had already
"aertaken these works. We have given them land
efLit'a have granted them an interest upon their capi-
-1 and we have, moreover, taken care that, if the
Fatie tiemc connected with -them should desire at some
4ite time to retire from the enterprise, they would
ve nothing more to du than to return their capital t
th A goods into our
,hands, and to say, '` Will you take
Aeeta from us?'.'—((leer, hear.) The Noble Lord ap-
ttred to think that we required a spur to induce us to
t,ktil.4nee in respect to those railways. We required no
CU
Spur
4 " Parce puer, stimulis, et fortius utere loris."
'
:ph Fuld be most happy to produce all the papers ap-
th ad for by the Noble Lord, and to bring to a conclusion
et object which the Noble Lord had not more at heart
ax,,n he (Sir .T. Hobhouse) had himself.
Iji,,"`r. MANGLES concurred with the Hon. Member for
Al'ofrose in what he had atated with respect to the rail.
Atin Bengal.
Ord JOCELYN:replied. Ho had brought forward
tape question because he considered it of vast importance
andia and the people of England.
motion was then agreed to.
RAJA OF SATTARA.
' G. THOMPSON meved for copies of any docn-
i:ats furnished by the resideet at Sattara to the Born-
:. Government, showing the amount or value of the
sos4Pa rty belonging to the State of Sattara at the time
settlue decease of the late Raja, and the amount of reve-
kita from all sources in the State of Sattara since its ad-
4istration by the East India Company, and the charges
thble out of the said revenue; of all correspondence
';tit',ls"en the widow and the adopted son of the ex-Raja
44,attara, and the Governor. General's agent at Benares,
Ititimi between that officer and the Governor-General of
4, from the Ist day of December, 1849, to the present
tt,,f and, of all correspondence whether in the
• Of India
department or otherwise, between the Government
Vudift and the Court of Directors of the East India
14141Pany, on the subject of the provision to be made for
4%4,441 widow and adopted son (so far as the same have
l'ievn presented to this House).—Agreed to.
Over orders of the day were then agreed to, and
°tsetse adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, June 11.
'?"air Lordship
tills assembled at Five o'clock.
11Q Court of Chancery (County Palatine of Lancaster)
Passed through Committee.
PETITIONS. •
tdt d MIALAESBURY presented a petition from
P,;;',, praying that, in the event of.any alteration in the
11i1":'-cfEce regulations, the petitioners might not bo de-
.1;74 of one delivery at least on the Sundays.
ta;u"Earl of LEICESTER presented petitions from
tt,'lll,outh and other places against Sunday labour in
ffi ost-office.
tiol, tee mouth
Earl of ST GERMANS presented several peti-
e.iri favour of the Marriage Bill.
44,4 MONTEAGLE presented a petition from the
klehls and merchants of Forfar against the arrange-
.The,.'44of the Aberdeen Railway.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES BILL.
•4„ r Lordships then went into Committee on the
~T:tralian Colonies Bill.
Lq,°,1.(1 MONTEAGLE.said that he was about to bring
4-13 their to rdships the question whether in framing
constitution for the ,colonies they would adopt
ti),, Principle of a single chamber, or whether they would
VliZt, to the old constitutional principle of a double
44rit-d 'He thought he should be able to show their
'N'i.4`'iPs that the principle of a single chamber was
tliql-ie_,lY contrary to the opinions of the colonists. He
+lo:ll,',u abstain from arguing upon the principle of a
'4' or single chamber. Bethought that would almost
411 insult More a British L'eislature, but he thought
n•tf could show to their Lordships that the principle
•ati chamber had been condemned in all
t • t.
citlit.:l's. He cou4l cite the example of the United
d~uwilPre that principle had yielded to the idea of a
cha'mber, as well in the constitution of the whole
ror-4 °F States as in manv separate states. They had
sillopl:l4rirable example of the ill effects resulting from a
t 4.14 chamber—the results of that system in 1791,
11, s might say, even in the present time • and
tiik."llenged his Noble Friend opposite, with all
tfAZe_cltlaintance with the subject to show one instance
1147.suecessful experiment of a single chamber, but, on
ttke"e_tbler hand, he could show many instances of ill-
The Noble Earl had been a great artificer in
raki„Vtlons,,and no person had issued more pieces of
Tl_tetUres b liven time than that Noble Earl had.
tteahujst was the New- Zealand constitution, which was
‘ttlyZi so a dead letter by the Governor imm•distely it
"L' 1014 the r9blt Isrl bid So sti 19

THE

suspend the laws until that constitution could be re-
pealed. The next was the constitution for Australia,
passed in 1847, which was rejected by the colonists
themselves, because it went to deprive them of a portion
of their franchise. Now both those constitutions con-
tained the principle of a double chamber, and he asked
the Noble Earl on what grounds he had altered the
opinions he then held. The Noble Earl had asked the
ads ice of the governors of the various colonies in that
part of the world, and they unanimously pronounced
in favour of a double chamber, and stated that the
colonists themselves were not opposed to that system.
But the Noble Earl was like the hero of Pope's " Ja-
nuary and May,"
" Firm and determined in his mind was he
As men who ask advice are wont to be."
_ _

And so, though advised to adopt the system of two
chambers, his mind was made up to have but one. If
they inquired into the state of advancement of the co-
lonists they would find that they were capable of con-
ducting their own affairs. Lie would show their Lord-
ships that in the whole history of the colonies, and in
that of the United StateF, the principle of a second
chamber was preferred to that of a single one ; Em]
they had it on the authority of the Committee of the
Privy Council, that they would, had it rested with them
to recommend, have advised the institution of a second
chamber. But that was not all, the Government were

about al►o to gi►e a constitution to the Cape of Good
Hope, and the Noble Earl, now at the head of the Colo-
nial Department (Earl Grey), proposed to give the people
of that colony a double chamber. When their Lordships
recollected the disturbances that took place at the Cape
—when they reflected that the people of that colony had
actually set themselves up in arms against the power of
the Government, it must seem to them as somewhat
strange that the Government in that case yielded to
♦iolence—that which they refused to the more orderly
and more intelligent people of Australia—a constitution
with a second chamber. Was that consistent?—was it
not strange ?—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then re-
ferred their Lordships to the colony of Newfound-
land, referred to by Lord Stanley, as having got two
chambers. True, as the Noble Lord had said, they
had been amalgamated for a time, and resolved into
one, because of some petty differences ; but those
differences having been obviated, the two chambers of
that little colony were again restored, and were now in
existence. He apologised to their Lordships for tres-
passing thus at length on their Lordships' time; but
there was one thing to which he felt bound to call their
Lordships' attention—the prayer of the petitions of the
people of Australia; and if there was any one thing for
which more than another the colonists prayed, it was
that their institutions should be assimilated to those of

the mother country. He believed, in a colony which had
no antecedents, and which had no history to tall back
upon, the surest way to give, strength was by the estab-
lishment of the elective system; but the most conserva-
tive system would be by the adoption of a second cham-
ber. He asked the Noble Earl if he felt comfortable at
his proceedings? and he would tell the Noble Earl and
their Lordships, should they pass this Bill, that the co-
lonists would elect such a democratic chamber under it
as would, perhaps, cause strong feelings of regret in this
country. The Noble Lord concluded by moving, as an
amendment, the adoption of a.double chamber.

Earl GREY said the Noble Lord had gone into the
question of colonial constitutions at great length—mix-
ing up with it some very harmless banter and pointless
jokes—but he had not touched the real question; for he
bad not shown how it was possible to separate the Le-
gislature of New South Wales without flying in the face
of the whole of the colonists, who in all their petitions
deprecated the slightest change. The House of Lords
existed in this country alone of all the countries of the
world; it grew out of the habits of the people, and it was
as impossible to create it as it would be to create one of
those magnificent oak trees which shot out their roots
in all directions. He asked the House, therefore, to
support him on the plain and simple principle of not dis-
turbing the existing institutions in the colonies.
Lord ABINGER said the Bill was not an affirmation
of the existing state of things in the colonies, but the
introduction of an entire change in their institutions.
The result of the Bill would be the creation of a single
democratic chamber, and the product;on of great discord
and dissatisfaction in the colonies. Of the two modes of
governing the colonies, the Noble Earl had undoubtedly
adopted the worst.
Lord LYTTELTON said that the colonists had peti-
tioned over and over again that the British Constitution
might be extended to them. The question before the
House, however, was not as to the best constitution, but
as to the best legislative machinery applicable under
the circumstances to the colony. There was not the
slightest indication in any of the documents laid before
the House that a double chamber would be objection-
able. The Noble Earl's measure did not leave it to the
colony to introduce the system recommended, but would
prevent them from doing so if they should think fir. He
should support the amendment of his Noble Friend,
leaving the details to be filled up at another opportunity '
if their Lordships should agree to the principle.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS believed the amend-
ment proposed by the Noble Lord would disappoint the
expectations which had been held out to the colonists.
The Noble Lord had argued as if the colonists had made
the proposition which he advocated, but it had never
been brought under their consideration at all. He was
not prepared to vote fur the amendment, particularly as
this was an experiment which he thought deserving of
a fair trial. The proposition made by the Noble Lord
could not, under the existing circumstances of the colony
be carried out, because a huge number of the most in-
fluential parties resided at a considerable distance from
Sydney, and could not make it convenient to spend a con-
siderable port ion of the year in that place.
Lord WODEHOLTSE thought that a system which
had been so universally adopted in the colonies ought
not to be abandoned or departed from without some
stronger reasons than had yet been adduced. One
strong objection to the Bill was, that it would make the
Government a separate party in the colony,, distinct
from and opposed t..) the pe,ple, thus causing a constant
feeling of irritation between the colony and the
mother country.—(Hear, hear.) Although he believed it
essential to me establishment of a wise system of repre-
sentative institutions in the colonies that the Legislature
should con-ast of two chambers, he did not agree with
those who advocated a single chamber, on the ground
that they would lay the f iundation of aristocratic feel-
ings in those colonies. He believed they would commit
a great error by sanctioning this Bill, and should there-
fore support the amendment.
The Committee divided on the amendment, whorl the
numbers were—
Contents ... •-• 20
Non-contents 22
Majority against the amendment... —2
On our return to the gallery, we found
Lord LYTTELTON recommending the reduction of
the franchise to one-half the amount proposed by the
Bill. As the Noble Esrl (Grey) intended to alter the
clause' be would withdraw the amendment which he
should otherwise have proposed.
Earl GREY thought a reduction in the franchise very
desirable, and proposed a clause in accordance with the
views of the Noble Lord.
After a feW words from Earl POEMS,
The cl muse as amended was agreed to.

In reply to Lord MONTEAGLE,
Earl GREY said he saw no reason why the franchise
i❑ South Australia and Van Diemen's Land should not
be the same as that proposed for New South Wales, and
he would propose a clause to that effect.
Ou clause 8 t:eiug propose I,
Lord MONTEAGLE objected to it, because, what-
ever might. be the capacity of Wester❑ Australia to re-
ceive a constitution, until they should have the means
of paying the whole of their expenses they would not,
under the provisions of the Bill, be able to obtain a con-
stitution. It was a novel principle to lay dow❑ that no
state was entitled to representative government until it
had a revenue sufficient to pay its expenses.
Earl GREY said, so far from being a new principle it
was the ancient principle of our own Constitution. The
whole power of the House of Commons bad arisen from
the Crown being under the necessity of applying to it
for money. It was his deliberate opinion that until the
people of the colonies were able to pay the expenses of
their civil government, they were not entitled to repro-
Imitative institutions.

Lord MONTEAGLE asked if representative institu-
tions were to be refused so long as the colonies did not
pay the whole of their expenses? If so, we ought not
to grant them so long as we paid the salaries of the go-
♦ernors.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM disputed the position laid down
by the Secretary fur the Colonies, that the power of the
House of Commons arose from its having the power of
the purse. It had its power inconsequence of this being
a free country.
Earl GREY, in answer to the observation of the
Noble Lord (Monteagle), said that the payment of the
salaries of colonial governors by this country was a wise
exception in the colonial expenditure. With regard to
the other point he believed he was correct in saying that
in point of fact representative institutions had beta
viewed as neither more nor less than a machinery for
taxation. The colonies ought to have representative in-
stitutions as soon as they were able to defray the cost of
government. Western Australia would speedily be in
such a position.
Lord .LYTTELTON congratulated the Noble Earl
on coming round to the views which he had expressed
in 1846.

Thp clause was then agreed to.
On clause 14,
In reply to Lord MONTEAGLE,
Earl GREY said that be had been in communication
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of
giving the colonists greater control over their customs,
and he had no doubt such a control would be granted
them.

The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 16,

Lord LY £TELTON wished to know whether it was
desirable that schedule C should stand part of the Bill.
The effect of it would be to fix the minimum to be paid
for purposes of public worship. He thought it would
be better to leave the whole question of the pecuniary
support of religious establishments to the colonists
themselves, as it was clearly one of their own internal
concerns.
After a few words from Lord REDESDALE,
Earl GREY said it had been considered that tha pre-
sent Bill could not originate in their Lordships' House,
because it created a taxing power. He would not take
upon himself to offer an opinion as to how far his Noble
Friend's (Lord Lyttelton's) proposition would interfere
with the privili ges of the House of Commons, but h.
would strongly deprecate any alteration in the Bin from
its.present shape.
After a short conversation, the proposed suggestion
was not pressed, and the clause was understood to have
been agreed to.
On clause 17 being proposed, which showed how the
appropriation of sums granted might be varied,
Lord MONTE AG LE complained that there was 6
power given by this clause to therGovernor °fibs ooloay