The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1850

to the intercourse with that Hon. and Gallant Member's
constituents, and, secondly, with reference to language
in this House, with regard to that intercourse.
He had been advised by several very respectable friends
—(Laughter)--that he hal better leave this complaint
and this inquiry until after the debate, which was fixed
fir the 28th of February.—(Hear.) Since he had
come down to the House, he had been informed, that his
Noble Friend at the head of the Government, had some
important matters to suggest, and as he was always ready
to make private convenience subservient to the public
service, he was desirous of reserving what he had to
say until a futere opportunity.—(Hear, and laughter.)
Yet, at the same time, he must say that he was exceed-
ingly desirous that the matter upon which they were
now engaged should be brought to as speedy a conclu-
sion as possible.—(Laughter.) Several Members behind
him were using badinage, but it would not. affect him,
except in so far as it would prevent his explanation.
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Gentleman was
perfectly competent at the present moment to make any
explanation he pleased.
Mr. CAMPBELL then said that in a speech he
had intended to make he had been interrupted in what
he had intended to say, or he should have
been able to declare his sentiments to the House.
He had received a communication from the secretary
of a Reform Association at Kensington, inviting him
(Mr. Campbell) to take part in a meeting the,-e. He
(Mr. Campbell) wrote to the secretary to say that he did
not agree with the views of the association, but ulti-
mately consented to attend the meeting, and at a great
incorn enience did so. He had left the House to do so ;
and ho believed the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Oxford was on his legs at the time,
and he must apologise for leaving him.—(Great
laughter.) On arriving at the meeting he found
that it was not fully assembled, but consisted n. arly
altogether of boys.—(Laughter.) After some others
had spoken, he was requested to address the meeting,
although the secretary was aware of his (Mr. Campbell's)
views on the subject; and he complied with that request
because it would have been uncivil not to have done so.
A Chartist rose up on a bench just opposite him—
(Laughter)—not the Hon. Member for Nottingham
(Mr. F. O'Connor), nor the Hon. Member for West
Surrey (Mr. Drummond), but a Chartist, who attacked
him because he had a seat in the House of Commons,
and who declared him (Mr. Campbell) to be a
fair specimen of ,that assembly—(Loud laughter)—
and he confessed he met that charge with considerable
indignation.—(Continued laughter.) He regretted to
find that the character of that House did not stand in
such high estimation in Kensington as it did in other
places.—(Loud laughter.) Great confusion took
place at the meeting—(ae we understood the
Hon. Gentleman, who, we may mention excited the
greatest amusement and hilarity in the House owing
to the genuine simplicity with which he delivered his
address)—in the midst of which he retired, and arrived
at the House at the time of the division, and explained
what had taken place to his Hon. Friend near him.
He hoped the House would acquit him of
any disposition to make any false representations.
With regard to the language which the Hon. and
Gallant Member ascribed to him, he begged to assure
the Hon. and Gallant Member that he was quite mis-
taken in supposing that in speaking of the inhabitants
of Kensington he made use of the term " low people."
He would not dispute that the Hoe. Gentleman might
have been under the impression that he did use that
language, but he did not find it in any of the reports
of his speech, and therefore before the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member spoke so positively on the matter he ought
to have satisfied himself that the language really was
used. It was almost unnecessary for him to say that the
sentiments ascribed to him by the Hon. and Gallant
Member with regard to the working classes were not at
all the sentiments he held about them. The conduct of
the working man was highly deserving of commenda-
tion, while his character was entitled to every respect.—
(Order, order).
The SPEAKER was
quite sure the Hon. and Learned
Member would see the necessity of refraining from any
further observations. It was not usual to refer to what
had passed in a former debate in this way, and if any
Hon. Member had misrepresented the views of the Hon.
Gentleman, the Hon. Gentleman aught to have made his
explanation at the close of that Hon. Member's speech.
If the Honourable Member wished to clear up any mis-
representation a 3 to his character, he ought to be strictly
limited to thee—(lean)
Mr. CAMPBELL said he would only thank the
House for the indulgence they liad given him, and he
would assure them that it was not unappreciated.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said, after the very simple story
which had been told to the House by the Hon. Member
for Cambridge, it was really unnecessary to tremble the
House further with the matter. He (Mr. B. Osborne)
could assure the Hon. Member that what ho had said
with regard to the respectable people of Chelsea and
Hammersmith was perfectly satisfactory, and he ac•
cepted his apology with the greatest kiuduess.—(Roars
of laughter.)

EPISCOPAL REVENUES.
Mr. DEEDES asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was the intention of the Government to bring
forward this session any Bill fouuded on the report of
the Episcopal and Capitular Revenues Commission?
Lord J. RUSSELL wai understood to say that the
subject would be brought before the House after Easter,
but he could not say what time at', er Easter.
THE IRISH POOR-LAW.
Mr. CLEMENTS said he had seen from the report of
the Irish Poor-law Commissioners that thy were in
course of declaring the working out of the commission
with reference to Connaught. He would ask the Secre-
tary of State fir the Homo Department what was the
etson that they had taken a very small portion of Con-
laught, viz., the county of Leitrim, for that commission?

In the county of Leitrim there were three portions-
small ones it was true, but not, nevertheless, to be neg.
lected on that account—which seemed to have been left
out of the calculations of the authorities; and he wished
therefore to inquire whether there was any design of
intentionally leaving out these three portions?
Sir G. GREY was not aware that these portions Lai
not been touched. The arrangement of these maters
laid exclusively within the duty of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, and he was not, therefore, in the possession
of sufficient information to give any definite reply, but
he would make the requisite inquiries in order that he
might give a satisfactory answer to the question.
REDUCTION OF LIGHT DUEe.
Mr. FORSTER wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Pre-
sident of the Beard of Trade to bring in any measure
this session for the reduction of the lighthouse dues
chargeable upon sea-going vessels.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that certainly when the
subject of the Trinity Board was before the House last
session he had incidentally alludoi to the light dues,
hoping to lessen the expenses which now resulted from
them, but ho had this session introduced several impor-
tant measures connected With the mercantile marine,
not one of which had he had an opportunity of bringing
before the H6use, and he should therefore feel perfectly 1
unjustified in bringing any other matter before the
House until these were dispersed of.
DIVISION OF IRISH UNIONS. I

In reply to a question from Air. H. HERBERT,
Sir G. GREY said he did not know enough upon the
subject
give a reply, but would obtain the
n
remnt to give
for a future day. He was not at
al awarees a a
that there was any intention whatever to divide
les
ry t

Brica.eonoogfoae Ita
3.
the
_
the unions.
THE NEW LORD CHIEF JUSTICE.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to ask a question of which
or. may I e made, since the last
awillilellYb'e subject to such reductions
whether such appointments
taillowances as may be recommended
iehnse theirhh sessionaa dv e givenosalariesf beenpalianotice,
andma d
Parliament,
the recent appointment
by Parliament,
.and especially
of the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench; and,
whether Lord Campbell accepts the same salary as Lord
htLaolrsd? top. state that th
Denman did, viz.,
.8,000/. per annum, instead of 10,0001.
by the
as the Act of Parliament grants.
bed accepted the office of
eLnmoradn_CnhaiemfeJiyu,st
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that Lord Campbell
theep ae
rt
otuaegsthe diminution of the salary of the
Loardasr
annum.wi sameth r
esr salaryelte
Treasury without any. Bill being pa,:sed far
the purpose 11? Parliament ; but he should
office bad been made
presently give notice of a Bill for that purpose. It was
not proper to bring in any mtasure without consulting
Lord Denman, and he might say that this Bill would
have Lord DeLallan'a full approval. With respect to
Lord Campbell, he had been informed at the time that
her Majesty's pleasure had been notified to him that the
salary would be 8,000/. per annum. IT
-...e might also state
that it was intended to reduce the salary of the Lord
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas to 7,0001. per annum.
With respect to the first part of the question, he could
not state that it was generally intended to reduce all the
salaries of officers appointed. since the last session of
Parliament, but some salaries would be reduced, and
those officers whom it was intended to reduce had re-
ceived notice.
Mr. HUME wished to know if the pension which Lord
Campbell was to receive had been settled?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that na arrangements had
yet be3n come to.
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know if Lord Camp-
bell would still continue to be a Minister ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Lord Campbell had
already ceased to hold a seat in the Cabinet.
ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.
Lord NUGENT asked Sir De Lacy Evans whether
ho might be understood as engaging himself, in any
event, to press forward to a discussion and division, on
the earliest open day after the Easter recess, the measure
which he postponed on Tuesday evening lag, respecting
an extension of the elective franchise?
Sir DE LACY EVANS replied that it was his inten-
tion to press the measure, but if any unforeseen circum-
stance should arise to prevent him,. the Noble Lord was
at liberty to bring forward the stilvect himselt.
Lord NUGENT said the House would perhaps allow
him to give a conditional notice. That in the event of
his Hon. and Gallant Friend not considering it necessary
to bring forward the question on an early day after
Ea:ter, he should feel it his duty to give notice that on
au early clay after that period he should roc,No for
leave to tirinr in a Dal to the &fleet that all
occupiers of dwellink-houses assessed to the poor-rates
or taxes, should be qualified to vote for Members of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
This Bili was read a first time.
KILRUSH UNION.
_ _ _

Mr. P. SCROPicalled the attention of the House to
the social state of the union Of liilrusb, in the county of
Clare, for the purpose of moving for the appointment of
a Special Com' niesion to inquire into the same, and into
he means that might be, adopted for its amelioration.
He hoped that some suggestion might be made, or some
plan devised by such a Commission, to rescue from starva-
tion and the grave the unhappy population of this union,
which he said was situated at the western extreme
of the county of Clarc, And formed an acute

right angle. The populat:en was 80,000 in 1841,
and the valuation in 1845 was something under 60,000/,
and though it would appear to be a densely populated
district, the average number of acres per head was
considsrably larger than in many other unions.
Captain Kennedy gave the folios% ing account
of the population in 1845:—The Captain repre-
sented them to be a set of amphibious potato
growing, fish collecting, and turf gathering p:-
pula,ion. As had fishers as they were farmers, occupy-
ing potato land for which they paid three pounds an acre,
although it was not worth fifcsen shillings, and subject
to the casualties of the season, without receiving
any assistance of their landlords. Assistance of
that kind as a general rule was never given, and the
landlords not only neglected their property, both as re-
gards their own interest and that of their tenants. No
wonder then that a population so situated should have
felt the pressure of the potato failure in 1846 with
most overwhelming severity. Not only did they
lose their means of subsistence, but they were ex•
posed to the exorbitant rents which they had
to pay. All classes, therefore, suffered, and it was not
to be wondered at that when the relief granted by Par-
liament in 1846 and 1847 was afforded to them, the en-
tire population of the district should have rushed with
one accord on the relief works. No wonder that there
should have been a sort of general scramble for it,
and that the expenditure on the occasion should
have reachel an extraordinary magnitude. The House
would hardly credit it, but he could assure them it was
a face, that in the county of Clare alone the expenditure
on the relief works was no less than 470,0004; and
in the parish of Kilkenny alone the expenditure on
the relief works reached to the enormous sum of 110,000/.
The county of Clara was most remarkable for the
amount of destitution, for the rapacity of its relief
committees, and for the difficulty with which its destitu-
tion was relieved. In many instances the money in-
tended for the poor was withheld from them and
distributed among the friends and favourites of the
relief committees. In the year ending August,
1847 the union of Kilrush had actually received no less
an amount of public money than 143,000/. If that
money had been wisely expended he (Mr. P. Scrope)
would hardly have objected to its being granted; but it
was expended in a manner rather tending to increase the
destitution of the district than to enable it to become sell-
supporting. In August, 1847, the board of guardians
of Kilrush entered on their office, and in the preceding
month of July no less a number than 51,000 of the in-
habitants had been relieved by the soup kitchen mode of
relief. The Hon.Gestlernan then read several extracts from
the reports of poor-law unions, in which it was stated
that the whole of the business had been very
loosely conducted, that the inmates were wanting
every necessary, that 535 deaths had occurred in the
several unions, that the arrears of poor-rates were prin-
cipally owing from the guardians themselves. The
feet was, that the really destitute were made to give
place to the able bodied. In the union of Ktlrush,
on the sth c f January, there were 1,250 in the workhouse,
but there were 7,000 and upwards of out• door paupers
who were altogether without the commonest necessaries
for the sustenance of physical exilitence. The system
adopted seemed to be to reverse the natural order of things.
On this point Captain Kennedy remonstrated with the
guardians, but unsuccessfully. The consequence was a
frightful amount of mortality among the destitute evicted
peasantry. Captain Kennedy's account stated that these
evictions were carried to a great extent, and the misery
and destitution had increased, in consequence, to an
amount which the House would scarcely credit, unless it
had studied the authentic documents on this subject.
Captain Kennedy's picture of the awful effects of these
evictions was frightful to read. He had said enough to
show that a frightful amount of destitution had
been produced by these evictions. The treatment
of the poor man had really been most cruel. The ordi-
nary process of the law was not resortul to for the pur-
pose of ejecting him from his home, but his house was
pulled down in his own presence, and he was thrown
penny less upon the world. Captain Kennedy's reports gave
frightful details of these evils, and many of his descriptions
reminded them of the history of a savage race, rather
than an;:account of the sufferings of a civilized people.
The Honourable Member read several letters written
from gentlemen in Ireland, depicting the destitu-
tion and misery which resulted to the popula-
tion from the system of eviction, many of them
being wholly unable to obtain the means of subsistence,
and betaking themselves to the ditches to languish and
die. Those harrowing sights were most frequent in the
western unions of Ireland. The amount of relief af-
forded was insufficient to maintain existence; therefore,
he contended that it was not legal relief, or i❑ accord-
ance with the requirements of the law. He then pro-
ceeded to bear testimony to the amount of destitution
existing in the union of Kilrush. No country ravaged
by a hostile foe could bo reduced to a more appalling
condition. If a hostile army had landed on the coast of
Clare, the Government would have spared no expense to
check its progress; but similar active steps had not been
taken to check the progress of famine and cholera, which
left desolate thousands of families. In such a manner,
then, had the relief been given to those poor creatures
during the last winter, and ho would ask the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government who was responsible for
the refusal to give relief to the poor in that union? By
the English and Scotch Poor Law, those who adminis-
tered that law were held responsible for its proper admi-
nistration and answerable fur any deficiency in such ad-
ministration, and why should it not be so in -Ireland? In
the Kilrush Union, during the years 1848 and 1849, the
rates had only been collected to the amount of 4s. or 4s. Gd.
in the pound, so that there seemed great neglect on the
part of the guardians in that respect; but supposing that
the local rates had been exhausted, was it not a casts in
which Government ought to have come forward and not
allowed the poor of that union to starve? In 1846, the
then Secretary fn. Ireland, stated that the great object
the Government had in view, and one which it n

bound to carry out, was to see that not a single indi-
vidual should die of starvation in Ireland, and that sen-
timent was repeated by the Earl of Carlisle, in the House
of Lords, in introducing the Rate-in-Aid Bill to that
House; but he would take upon him to prove that since
that lime thousands had died of starvation in Ireland,
and hundreds in the union to which he was alluding.
In 1837 there were two courses open for the Govern-
ment to pursue in affording relief to the Irish poor.
They could hare either fully carried out the poor-law
they had established, enforced payments of the rates
made under that law, assessed rate after rate (in terms
of the suggestien of Sir Charles Trevellyan) on the
owners of land in Ireland, until they were either
compelled to pay or give up their places to those
who would, or they might have said to the dis-
tressed unions in Ireland, " You admit you are un-
able to fulfil the duties imposed upon you in respect
of the poor, and you ask us to aid you in doing so. We
will give you that aid, but we will give it you in such a
form that you will soon become self-supporting. Wo will
give it you in such a way as that it may be appropriated
in the improvement of your district at the same time that

it gives work and sustenance to your poor; but if you
refuse to take the money, end lay it out in that manner,
we will undertake your dtries; we will employ the poor
with this money in the improvement of your estates,
whether you consent or not, and then charge your pro-
perty with the expenditure." That was the principle
laid down in respect of the relief granted to the High-
lands in 1846, and if the Government had acted on it in
this instance, or even if they had adopted the other a 1:

teruative, different and more favourable results would
have followed. But insteal of doing either, they con-
tinued to dole out driblets of money from month to
month, barely sufficient t) kcep the people alive, while
they relieved the landlords and gave them an opportu-
nity to clesr their estates of the poor who were resident
upon them. The proposal he now made was to appoint
a Commission to inquire into those matte..s he had alluded
to, which, if appointed, would, he had no doubt, .be the
means of suggesting the adoption of such steps as would
relieve the union he had alluded to from its present

frightful condition.
Mr. A. STAFFORD seconded the motion.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said, in replying to the Hon-
Gentleman who bad just sat down, it would not be pos-
sible for him to allude to every particular he had brought
forward. The Hon. Gentleman had had before him the
long correspondence which had taken place on this sub-
ject contained in the various blue-books, and had gone
into details on the different topics suggested by these, so
that it was impossible, not knowing the particular points
the Hon. Gentleman was to dilate upon, that he could
answer specifically every point to which he had alluded,
The correspondence contained in thote blue-books
had been long under the consideration of the house, and
from it could be traced the unfortunate position in which
the Kilrush union was situated. No one could read

that correspondence without feelings of regret and pain.
while at the same time it must be clear to those who

studied it that the situation of that union before the
famine was not at all satisfactory, so that as an unavoid-

able consequence that famine fell with increased and
deverata severity on that union. What Government
had had to do during and since the famine, was to re-

lieve that distress so far as they were able. As to the
distress which prevailed, he knew nothing more pain-
ful than many of Captain Kennedy's reports, and he
might say,l in passing, that he thought the compliment
the Hon. Gentleman bad paid to that gallant officer,
was well and fully merited.—(Hear, hear.) There
could, therefore, be no doubt that those reports were
painful, not only, however, as detailing the misery which
exited in the union, but also as detailing the low state

of morals among the people resident in the union ;ii;
frauds they had recourse to for the purpose of extorting
relief, and.many other matters which he thought unfit
to be recapitulated in that House. There were, therefore,
many elements at work, all tending to augmet:t the dis-
tress; and prominent amonget these were the amount of
evictions which had taken place in the union; and it was
the very fact of those evictions taking place which in-
duced the Government in 1848 to pass the Act for the
protection and relief of the destitute poor evicted from
their dwellings in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman was
therefore wrong, when he accused the Government of
doing nothing to shield the poor from the effects of those
evictions. That Act might have failed in accomplish-
ing all that it was desirable it should have done, but it
was adopted with the full intention of proteeting the
poor, and to a considerable extent it did so. The,lon.
Gentleman had said those evictions were carried on
under the eye of the Government ; that Government
stood calmly by and saw them carried out, and the poor
driven helpless red homeless upon the world, but the
Act ho had named refuted that statement; and he would
ask the House would it have been right or proper for the
Government to have stepped in, and prevented those
who owned the soil taking possession of it from those
who persisted in occupying it without paying any rent ?
—(llear, hear.) He hoped he would not give utterance
to a single word that would give the least encourage-
ment to such a system of evictions, but he thought it un-
fair on the Hon. Gentleman to charge the Government
with indifference in not stepping in and !tclopting weal

sures, which he was sure the Won. Gentleman himself

would not be prepared to sanction. As to what occur-
xed the iiilrukin Union (Wring the autumn of last

year, the Poor-law Commissioners considered that
the elected board of guardians had not used the dili
Bence they aught to have done in the collection of
their rates, and they accordingly declined to afford
theta any relief from the treasury. if they had
done so, he thought, from the general tenour of the
Honourable Gntieman's speech, that he would have
been dissatisfied with their conduct, but in consequence
of tl at refusal, the responsibility was thrown on the
elected board of guardians, and the first stoppage of re-
lief detailed by the Hon. Gentleman had taken place;
as to the second stoppage of relief in January last, the
Poor-'aw Commissioners considered that the board of
guardians, in causing it, had been guilty of an error in
judgment rather than any desire on their part to deprive
the poor of relief, and they, therefore, did not think it
requisite to go to extreme measures with them. The
Hon. Gentleman had concluded by moving for the ap-
pointment of a special commission on the subject. Now,
he did not see to what practical benefit that would lead.
Its duties could not be confined to the Kilrush union
alone, but they must extend its operations is the other
distressed unions; and certainly when he considered the
numerous reports of commissions, and inspectors, and
boards of guardians, which had been laid upon the table
of the House in respect of the condition of those, he did
not think that much additional information cuuld be got
by appointing such a commission as that moved for. It
would, in his opinion, give rise to hopes which never
could be realised, aal do away with that feeling of
self-reliance among the people, without which they
could never expect t) see them attain any thing like
prosperity. Ho would not say that any great ameliora-
tion in the condition of the Kilrush union bad taken
place, but this he would say, that the rates in that union
were now in steady course of collection; that the
guardians of the poor were fully alive to their duty, and
exerting themselves cordially and earnestly in the per-
formance of it. The rate collected in the union fur the
week ending the 29th of December list amounted to
732/., and had since been going on more or less increas-
ing. For the two months ending January last the
amount collected amounted to 4,656/., so that as far as
the collection cf the rate was concerned matters were in
a satisfactory state, and there was, besides, no lack of
funds in the hands of the guardians for enabling them to
afford relief. There bad been from time to time large ad-
vances male to the Kilrush union from the Treasury.
During the two years ending the 29th of September asst,
23,000/. had been advanced to that union, and since the
29th September 5001. had been advanced to the union to
enable the guardians to erect an addition to the work-
house, which addition had been erected, and was capa-
ble of affording additional accommodation to 575 indi-
viduals. Independent of all this there was still admi-
nistered a large amount of out-door relief, for he found
that during the week ending the 23d of February last,
there were 12,470 persons on the out-door relief list.
In the whole of Ireland, on the 911 of February last
there were 140,000 individuals in the receipt of out
door relief ; of these 15,000 belonged to the unions in
the province of Connaught, and 35 to the Kilrush union
and the other unions in Clare. So far, then, as rates
and workhouse accommodation was concerned matters
were satisfactory, as regarded the Kilrush union, while
at the same time there was an anxious desire evinced
on the part of the guardians to do their duty.
He Lelieved no practical result would follow
if the motion were granted, and do not let
them adopt a course which may be of no pos-
sible advantage whatever. He could assure his
Hon. Friend that the Poor-law Commissioners had
been watching, and would watch, the proceedings of the
Kilrush union very carefully, and the guardians who
administered its affairs. They had already an able of-
ficer on the spot in the person of Captain Kennedy, and
if they were able to discover that they did not do their
duty, such steps should be taken as the necessities of the
union demanded.
Mr. MONSELL said that from the latest accounts he
had received the Kilrush union was getting worse instead
of better, and unless the Government did something at
once the state of the population will be dreadful. indeed.
The assistant barrister of the court (Mr. Major,) in hold-
ing quarter sessions in Kilrush, some few days since,
said that he never witnessed such patient agony of
sufferings, which were beyond human endurance. Did
his Right Honourable Friend the Chief Secretary for
Ireland, know that the poor in that union were often
compelled to come 16 and 20 miles for relief, and after-
wards allowed to go home without even having their
claims investigated or receiving a single meal? What
amelioration, therefore, can have occurred in the con-
dition of the people ? And if the union itself be in
a beter state, or the poor-rates lower, it was because
the people perished from sheer starvation. Surely if
such a system were to be carried on no poor-rate at
all would be necessary in a short time; but be appealed
to the House and to the Government, whether it was
right to improve the social condition of the people, or
of the union, over the graves of hundreds, and perhaps
thousands, of their fellow-creatures. He, himself, had
been over the union, though not connected with it, and
so much human misery as he saw it was impossible to
conceive. For miles and miles nothing could be seen
but a dreary waste; nothing to be witnessed like farms
or farmers, and only a few patches here and there culti-
vated. Let not the House imagine that the people in
that locality were not good 'about ers, fit he had been
informed by Count Strelibekey that in the union of
Belmurry, which was, except Kilrush, the worst part of
Ireland, he had seen 350 men employed, under the in-
spection of an engineer from Plymouth, and any thine like
the zeal and anxiety to perferna their laborious duties
was never witnessed. The k!entletnan under whom they
were employed informed the Count that, when he went
into the locality, such was the miserable condition of the
labouring poor that he had to feed those 350 men for a
fortnight before they were able to go to work. Since VI, n
nothing could be more praiseworthy than their cos -
due'. He thought the ordinary operations of the law
ought to be suspended in that union, and the, manage-
ment of it given to Mr. Twistletou, or Count Sirelibekey,
and let them apply its resources to draining, t migratior,
or the cultivation of the land, and charge that land
with the improvements so made, in order to give em-
ployment to the people. Something of that kind must
be done, or the whole population-would be swept away.
An Honourable Friend of his, a Member of that House,
had been at Kilrush, and witnessed evictions, by one or
two individuals, of the most he art rending description.
A few days after being informed of what had Occurred,
he (Mr. Monsen) visited the locality, and in a yard, not
half the size of the flour of that llouse, saw seven, eight,
and nine persons huddled in cabins, with no bed-elothes
to cover them at night, having no bed to he on but the
cold ground, and scarcely any clothing to cover them iu
the day. Those poor creatures were exposed to such
an accumulation of misery that he solemnly declared he
thought one description sufficient to kill them. Fever
raged in one or two of those cabins or sheds, and altogether
it was impossible to witness without horror such a state of
suffering in a Christian land. Surely neither the Govern-
ment nor the House would allow such a state of things to
go on; and most certainly if some person was not sent
down there, armed by law with abitrary and dictatorial
powers for a season, and apply the labour in the district
to the cultivation of the land, which was a perfect waste,
the most fearful consequences must ensue.—(Hear, hoar)
By doing that all would be benefitted; they would not
have to be taxed in this country for advances made; the
laud would be improved and the people saved from death.
He entreated the Government not to disregard the pro.
positions he hai suggested, and if a commission
were allowed to down there to collect informa-
tion, as proposed by the motion of the Honourable
Member for Stroud, it would not place the Govern-
ment in a worse position than it was at the pre-
sent moment. He believed the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, could not deny
that under the existing state of things in KilruA thou.
sands of lives must be sacrificed if some remedy were no
proposed.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down made a speech and de-
scribed scenes that occurred in Kilrush that did great
credit to his benevolent wishes to improve the condition
of the union; but when he (Lord J. Russell) considered
that the Hon. Gentleman proposed what Parliament and
the Government should do, he owned it appeared to him
to be, if possibly, a plan which would make the evil
greater. What, in fact, he suggested, was this; that
the people of Kilrush being in a miserable condi-
tion—that the landlords appearing to have grossly neg-
lected their duties, in ejecting and evicting the wretched
tenants who had hitherto lived on means which no
longer existed—that farmers being there without skill or
capital to improve or cultivate the land, and were really
but "scratching" the ground, as the Hon. Gentleman
said, to secure a crop—that either through inability, or
the fault of the poor-law guardians, they cannot obtain
the smallest subsistence, and under these circumstances
he proposed a plan for an alteration in a condition of
things which ought not to be allowed to exist. What
he proposed, then, was, that the State should step in
and take the management of affairs into their hands
which was usually done by individuals; that in the
first place they should furnish all the necessary seeds for
sowing, and the agricultural implements to se: the far-
mers to work; that they should advance the wages to
enable men to cultivate the land properly, and having
done all that, and gone to a vast expense, no doubt
with the immediate benefits of producing good crops,
and employing great numbers of the people, now living
in a miserable way, the proprietors should afterwards
come in, and enjoy the benefit of their lands, being im-
proved at such an expense, and the rents of persons,
who had so grossly neglected their duties, increased by
the state.

Mr. MONSELL begged to explain that his plan was
totally the reverse of what the Noble Lord stated. What
he suggested was, that fends should be raised from the
electoral divisions of the unions, and the amount ex-
pended on the land itself, so far as to give employment
to the people. If the rates so assessed were not paid,
part of his suggestion was that the land should be sold.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL contended that that plan
would not meet the evil as the lion. Gentleman pro-
posed. At present, as the House was aware, it was one
of those unions where rates sufficient to meet the wants
of the people, or for their common sustenance, had not
been raised, and surely it was quite impossible that an
additional
by the lion. Gentleman. Itwas,
in fact, the state wt- '
dert tking to farm the hind—to do that which private in-
dividuals ought to do—and thereby incurring tin in-
creased responsibility, which no state ought to incur.
He (Lord John Russell) had seen very lately some
letters from a gentleman who travelled in the worst parts
of the west and south of Ireland, in which he stated that
a spirit and exertion were evinced, and a determination
to employ the people in the cultivating and sowing the
crops, highly encouraging, and which gave him
very
great hope of the future improvement of the country.
It was also curious enough that he alluded in these
letters to a statement of his (Lord John Rusasell's) in
that House, in which he alleged that many parts of Ire-
land were rapidly improving, a statement which he says
he deemed exaggerated when he read it, but was now
convinced, from what passed under his own eye, that it
was just and accurate. But if that House were to say,
here was a union in which persons grossly neglected to

have •
perform their duties ; that union, however, shall _
special fund, and the state shall undertake to forst re
the farms, would they not say in other ,iinicnes eye°
Cas flu use sot them to exert themselves when Ono!. the
neglected their duties were much better treated 700.
state.—(Lear, hear.) The plan proposed by t n
Gentleman nay ay have a good effect at presontbs,nt—
e
would but tt
ne and misery for some ni
result in the infliction of more seised
is jury, not only to Kilrush, but other distrreeated
unions in Ireland. who would expect to be toiseri
in a similar manner. He regretted deeply the at say,
and wretchedness which existed ; but he Iniz" core
everei,ornied
what he was obliged to repeat, hat there
t fin exertions and certain duties to be Pel;iesare
which ought not arid cannot be left to any tenants one
or any Government, duties of landlords and thef
to another, and both to the labourers by whore
should be employed; and if these are not
can perform
performed, no Legislature nor Government Can Poiog
them. There was, however, a change now g 5 Acts
under the operation of the Encumbered Fs tsteviirosh
passed last session, which, if extended to the , district
union, and if it so happened that estates in shot s
could be sold under it, he believed, consid Os'
tes,
superabundant population did not exist thereonbeir
pitalists would find labourers quite ready to glv(10540.
bet exertions for nothing more than a fair ant 010
rate remuneration. He believed that that /Ireland;
make a great change in the social condition 0 Ireland
but he did not think that such a remedy as tistriPpleric,kl
by the Honourable Member for the county
~ Wel
that the lands in the union of liirus" would
otiste,..nd
be cultivated at the expense of the
e_onpl,
of
do nothing more than set a ver bad
c Web, lei'os
fered a mischievous precedent hereafter, w . 000
of improving, would make things much worse in
parts of Ireland.
Mr. HORSMAN being alluded to by his °lid 001 gi
the Member for the county of Limerick, Wa e so bs
few words. It was certainly his misfortuuroy
present at certain scenes in Kilrush, and be vacuel Ost
Hived, that if they travelled Europe they Lesed on
find such a concentration of misery es be Witnessed
Sere'
that occasion. The Right Hon Gentleman tbs
tary of State for Ireland said that one°l°Turretresa;v°l
tmhioevnenee.xy advanced to the distressed unions in; —t- Preef
rd-
teontCloafrem,
iasnedrywwahsicnhotetxhisattel sulfic'ersen ble
at the head of the Government obserTvebde• j'ot
if
thee
titbe
acceded to the proposition of his Elon Fr-end'„perlY
would to taking that upon Reel' which r6itig7,l,
longed to individuals. But were they, 01 00'
every day, by advancing money to the distress why 01
and even to Kilrush at that very moment? and sift„trA
then, step out of the ordinary course, "'"?
relief to this distressed part of the cotiatfeYterferig
Right Hon. Gentleman said they would be hose
with the rights of property; but was not "irst Pr All;
of more value? And if they went back &I ht ore-
ciplee, was human life to be sacrifice° dto
to protect property? His Hon. Friend propose es Ihe
• I I:l3°C' • et°
the union in a state of commission, that 20-6 the
landlords had grossly neglected their dutY, ;,°.
ought to seep in and save the lives of the ping
that
the
his own part he believed from the beginnicgreeeter
motion would not be acceded to by the Govern. etjr
believed his Hon. Friend's purpose was t° raise
stile
mission, but something should be done to rennld to the
of things which was a reproach to that House
country. , „Isla lc"e0
Mr HUME agreed in the general prinniFue:""ifbile'
by the Noble Lord, but was it not worth the'r totenni
money a as already advanced, to obtain the fullehset
ation as to why so much distr 'led in t- t esl-
- Hon. Friend said that so much distress needs, if
ess prevai Awn° ,
in the civilized world, and not' 66- pill
ought they n oar j,oto
to have an examination made en the spot, t°
the landlords were in such a condition as I°,_ gelia be ,
to the people, and if not, that the lands sun" be tse"so
That he considered was a legitimate courseeteernnlells
for when information was obtained, the ",""ere.
therefore would be
hoped
in tl same conditionNeohiet
or
Lord at
thetliey:erded the the
vernatent would gent the commission pray
Colonel I)UNNE belived that no one in eh 0
be
motion of isFriend. • t fe
would refuse the commission, if they bored ec; et? the
it would do any good. But what was its 07e 004
the first place, to obtain facts. He submitte,"feete_eire'od
House was already in possession of tufficieTg'-tee
the report of the board of guardians and °,l„, theeed t°,„ of
tjt cttd
Tnhu
hferoye
information
mnahi
anoatdndt tnah
the
etf
antdisolyeecc
hhoo
iamnoddmu
many
es
a.sni on whatever o'll° ste,
bad
not been acted upon, and objectyotrAheemswr seat remedies
ehttsoihcdehecivePih;slaeesie:b.r stets
he
most injuriously. One of these remedies vends 01'5,
the management of the poor out of the lniiillardiglieel
landlords, and to put it in the hands of PalciA ,g,„a h/5,(10
This had been the case in Kilrush and iSte-
to do any good. One propo.ition which bad eroe,
by an Hon. Member he altogether dissented
of confiscating the property of the landlords. a teeirkeo
lords of Ireland had no more right to " of
perty taken from them in that way in
than 'eee, etlo°,;,ii
of this country. Nor were they, as a bode', idie en
that pauperism which it was proposed to ea"
from
upon them, even to their ruin A f lle° tree
Lord NAAS concurred in Much that 1in",,,-eetirge
the Noble Lord, but, at the same time, eceir:e tod odes
were not called upon to institute an exPen6h—se2e e;,:to
devise
yehsviticeshme
hmaoedfarip)esrl
oifedofur,
cbietudit
rslllettn.ecrhoevlygli:gohaenitdni
ic.qdu ire r° toin 0 •
tliifiseddaine voting against mnoistefreye)f;:ieleprs,°_,llifejs'froi
la from outeraLgsooaruidnrehteel
rd.
the spring vote°
tduocoahut
thata any
um:ibtooi :pi le'? ere sAef: itifer:7 'll°3
advanced, he should not have
motion.o J. RUSSELL—I did mention yari°lll Plurcei
ffrom whence relief might be hoped for. oftd
01 0
Lord NAAS had understood the Noble the dte
otwerhldirchrekchtafodinr
htteetrieivnserrneeteliioeennf
telfytrao m the operatic ° Prosy
and despairing of these producing such. 911 itrelia,irtr.),
FbaelTaeldfoafncithneoteforif°elnriglietirl)l;;:e°llo
of the existing distress as was imperative,/ his
should feel it his duty to support the motion::a hese-jog
Sir G. GREY said the Noble Lord oers..", of fee,eo
support of the motion entirely on his deer'. sPeised
the Government produce any particuiar a° egt
measure for the relief of the Kilrush uninne salieseet
if that was a reasonable ground on widen ee del
measure which he himself believed would "eat Of eb
because it would raise expectations on theooPs ri
age
people who were now sunk in the deepest (1 ne oen 60
could not be fulfilled, and therefore w01ei,,,, ewe
eee:4o
gravating the evil they all deplored. ' it
•
the motion of the Hon. Member for strcileer nistf°o
brought forward on two grounds, first, i° °l.pcjies. bet
morniwwe
which
lest information;
hdinev,afx.osekrprmielation; and second, to devise rern;euldthe-ele
cfailtirteawdays beforepossibleinformation
or thatfuller t the e
fdlie
tomauji,sl:::bi
ce111.91. 1 it
tors; and if any further itnte'ormoautsioenrovrae reafgednitCft°os.
twh,esynohtadneciensstahrey to appoint a special Governi-eetneu.fo;
who was
mission to procure it.—(H •hear.) Ot° 00°4 of
ear,
Limerick,
the country, and the Honourable Member ioreoffer.ajo
Houseweil
acquainted
alltnotneodurwsibtlbe
that 80tte.1135;
mouth, who had been an e e-witness of the„egesneile
• which existed in it. Ife would sa that 50906700-npi•
as to remedies that might bemade by these the
into
Gentlemen would be eh more valuable th.' ire d
nions of a Commissioner sent down r
.0 oitrbiefe.eere
these matters by the Government. But i" ties'
said he should support the motion, as his 11°„ecis",(e5
(Lord John Russell) had not promised any shr pees`jeti
sure for the Kilrush union. True no eaufe;oughttfeool
were contemplated, but his Noble Frienoi, hope
,serli
he thought, that there was ample ground ir toji Pi"otici
the operation of the meaeures they had n're ,030:3
and which were calculated to extend oraPl°), /I rif
prosperity throughout the whole of the count,Tepov.
f osbe
been generally agreed that one great cause ? the P plod
sign t 0 ee°pat'
and want of
eo f
landein pblyoyomwennetr, wass
wh ot o
were
of 0 Uuntidu biro
those who live upon it, and were surrounded uti7.s eelniivor-
ary difficulties; and further, that the only 101 oho
hthat was, by selling the land free from these
tb°e
rance3, and letting it pass into the bands ° that c„.l!ljer
had capital, and who were willing to piOY 1,. the
in the improvement and cultivation of the 01 d.O in
that opinion the Government had prorseceses ct'tbe
Parliament had passed the Encumbered 89'..." frov3, or,
order to effect a legal release of estatelepitel I,fer
possession of those who had neither thetheie ties an
perhaps, the will to employ labour, and .111,4,.58,, or
to those who bad botb.—(Hear, hear.) A toe in'
important measure, and should bo allovic"its fatligi 103;
rate before any premature judgment as 101jbo 0%, the':
fluence on the country was arrived at. ant °Zee
by
portant and essential measure of improver:, he oft ;
labour should be employed, and it ought:rereficemeroni
voluntaryG agency, not by the direct int' floe* entre'
overnment.--:(Hear, hear.) But the (so WV
for Montrose appeared to wish that thdeof th°
should step in and confiscate the properti
had not paid the poor-rates. eateent
Mr. HUME—No, eo. her of
gem too
Sir G. GREY—WeII, then, the Non. operaict he
what he (Sir G. Grey) meant, that by terries eta 0:
the Encumbered Estates Act those PrOc" who tb°s-
- transferred to new proprietors, foot the
means of employing labour, and setting ne"rief foot
06
improvements on which the real Posrp, horporl
Country must depend.—(hear, hear.) tO 6°or
Noble Lord opposite would not be induce't we either
01.
men .50 0.
the motion by any idea that the Govern esi ofe
indifferent to the amount of distress wPieforther.soo
that they were not going to propose al could so late
auras when these might be required. Ilenaust 016; io„°
him that such was not the case. And be
the liberty to correct what he considerel a ed to 011):
which the Noble Lord had fallen. lie see° ee that if
that the resources of the Kilrush tininn °fact; .o
exhausted. That did not appear toti,,,,erottO. 00
it were, the estates would come under petite
Chaseut'get,'
ge he
the Encumbered Estatcs Act, and would
'o'
alteration for the better. ' tion• be tie
Mr. IL HERBERT supported the mo el of t eon'
thought there was a dispositiou on the pal
had toieol
verurnent to underrate the thniculues tlrsYfoinitellorral'ic
tend with in Ireland. This WM 110 drnlj go 13° ber°
Tbo bet
on their part, hut it, wae not less true. oviog,
Baronet opposite was a gri at propertY 011,7171 joaper, eaki
were districts in Ireland which, so ferstree_., wto ;hid;
werewere growingrsorme
u this the list ()I oi°ll
they would, unless assisted, be found irientiou thoessio.
rupt unions. Among t iese he might "in. _0 last?' tho
There
of Listowel, to which be had called atte
cite (id"; rfontroisneir.selli bwetelErercleis9trictuseie fe! 4111:
ors
Ile quite understood the dillioulties.._'.."t if sett
of
Noble Lord hail to deal, but he believed...ot'he Otero or
law was left to operate, as it did now- Te wee etioo se
Listowel and Clonturk, with which ;o fev,
quainted, it would reduce them to the 8.
_Led for_ceifed
Kilrush. While on this subject he win hot 1.01. for
moments to draw attention to a letter genve
ontredioting the atiktements of the Xlm"