The Sun.
London, England, 1850-09-12 00:00:00

S N, SEPTEMBER 12, 1850.

OFFICIAL SALARIES COMMITTEE.
THE MIN r.
The following is the substance of the evidence of
the Right Hon. It. L. Sheil, Master of the Mint, re-
specting this establishment.
II)w many years have you held the office of Master
of the Mint ?—Since 1846.
Chairman—Will, you be kind enough to state what
are the duties of your office as Master of the Mint ?
—When I was appointed Master of the Mint I found
that I had very important responsibilities, but no
practical duties to perform ; very large sums of
money were vested in my hands, and in the hands of
persons for whose fidelity I was answerable. I read
the evidence that was taken before the Mint Com-
mittee in 1837, upon which there was no ieport, and
I came to the conclusion that there were very great
abuses in my department. I directed the attention of
Lord John Russell and the Chancellor. of the Ex-
chequer to the state of the Mint,. anti told them that
I was convinced that a very considerable saving of
public money might be effected. The Government
appointed a commission, and it appeared in evidence
before that commission that the moneyers, who are a
company in the Mint, at present consisting of five
persons • have been in the receipt of -enormmisprofits;
from the year 1842 to theyear 1847 the profits, upon
their own acknowledgment (for they refused to pro-
duce their books), amounted to the sum of 105,187/.
12s. 11d., divided among five persons ; their antece-
dent profits were not so large, but they were very
considerable. I found that the profits of the melter,
who is the clerk of the Master of the Mint, amounted,
from 1828 to 1847, to 49,650/. 7s. 11d.
Mr. Walter--From what sources were those profits
derived ?—The moneyers are, as they conceive, but
which I deny, a corporation. I conceive them to be
a branch of the general corporation of the Mint, but
not to constitute of themselves a distinct corporation.
They have existed in their present capacity for the
last three or four centuries ; the Master of the Mint
contracts with them for the coinage, and the contract
entered into in the year 1770 has been maintained to
this day,- - The profits arise from a contract made
with,the Master of the Mint, -which, the Mhster of
the Mint has the power of terminating' at 'three
months' notice ; but no Master of the Mint, so far as
I know, ever directed his attention to the abases to
which I am adverting till I was appointed to my
present office. I thought, that as my office was not
combined with another, I owed to the public, in re-
turn for the salary which I received, to effect a cor-
rection of the abuses, by means of which a consider-
able retrenchment would be accomplished.
Chairman—Are the parties to whom you have now
alluded parties for whom you are yourself responsible
as Master of the Mint ?—I am responsible for all the
bullion that is conveyed into the Mint, and the mo-
neyers and the melters are responsible to me.
Supposing that the moneyers or the melters were
to commit any act of dishonesty, from which the
public were to suffer, should you be held responsible?
—There is no doubt of that. On becoming Master
the Mint I was obliged to enter into recognizance,
myself to the amount of 20,0001., and to induce two
of my friends to become securities to the amount of
10,000/. each ; and that recognizance fastens on their
estates, which is, of course, a source to them of con-
siderable inconvenience; so much so, that Sir George
Clerk, after ceasing to be Master of the Mint, pressed
me to induce the Chancellor to appoint what he called
a trial of the pyx, in order that his sureties might be
liberated ; for one of his sureties was anxious to part
with a portion of his estate, which he was unable to
do, in consequence of having become surety for the
Master of the Mint.
Has that regulation always existed, that that
amount of security which you have now mentioned
should be taken from the Master of the Mint ?—I
cannot tell whether the Master of the Mint has always
been obliged to give that security, but I believe it
has been the case for at least' the last 140 or 150 years.
The profits of the Master of the Mint formerly were
very considerable; they amounted to up wards 0f5,000/.
a year. The Master of the Mint was paid in fees; then a
fixed salary of 3,000/. was adopted, and it was reduced
to 2,0001. a year when Lord Auckland was made
Master of the Mint. I should state that, as the re-
sult of the investigations that have taken place before
the Commission, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
sent for the moneyers, and informed them that the
Government conceived not only that it would be
necessary to put an end to their contract, but to
cease to execute the coinage under their responsibility ;
and we are now considering whether we should
execute the coinage by contract, open to competition
to all the world, or whether we should ourselves
execute the coinage. In either case, there is no doubt
that, not only great responsibility on the part of the
Master of the Mint will continue, but I believe some-
what onerous duties will be laid upon him.
When you say "we are considering," is it to the
Commission that you allude, or to the Government ?
—The Government.
The Government are at present considering the
subject you have just mentioned ?—They are con-
sidering the subject, and I have no doubt that, what-
ever conclusion they come to, the result will be, that
a very considerable saving will be effected.
In the event of their coming to the decision that
the coinage shall be carried on by public contract, do
you apprehend that it will then be necessary to main-
tain :the office of Master of the Mint as at present
constituted ?—On that question I think it is better
that I should read to the Committee the .pinion of the
Commissioners ; I was one of them ; but the opinion
of the other Commissioners will be probably consi-
dered of much greater value than my own. The
other Commissioners were Mr. Catton, the then Go•
the Bank a on f England, Sir Edwin Coffin,
Commissary-General, and Colonel Forbes,
who
bn o
was
w na oss f
at
cm
t 0t
the
emi headys s r
the
Mint at Calcutta. The
report states, " That the constitution of the Mint, as
it now exists, is unsuited to the present state of the
public administrative system, is ill adapted to promote
,mtichael management of the esta-
refore, to be replaced by a
state, " That the superin-
tendence the
ws
b nmree natn, efficientaz
noi
tdri
nbenuc.; economical
They
of the establishment should be entrusted to 11,
permanent officer, exempt from all other charge
or duty, who should be personally responsible
for the conduct of the business of. the Mint in
all its branches." They state, "That the ap-
pointment to all offices and employments in the Mint
should be made by the Lords Commissioners of the
Treasury." At present the Master of the Mint has
considerable patronage, of which he has offered to
divest himself, " and that the responsible head of the
establishment for the time being should be empowered
to suspend, subject to their •Lordships' inquiry into
the case, any officer or other person with whose con-
duct or efficiciency he may have cause to be dissatis-
fied." It is further recommended by the Commis-
sioners, that the board, through which a great deal of
the business of the Mint is now, done, shall be
abolished, and that many of the duties which are per-
formed by the board shall be performed by the Master
of the Mint. I conceive that if the blaster of the
Mint does his duty he can render essential service in
his department.
Of whom does the board, to which you have alluded,
,
of
futshe
consist at present
esetrihe Deputy-Mastert?—Theß
of the Mint the
oard consists of the Master
Queen's assayer, the clerk of the irons, and the comp-
troller,

Are all those salaried officers P--Thep are all saia.
tied officers.

What is the amount of the emoluments of that
board at the present monient ?—I could tell you, but
I have not made ,an exact calculation. The emolu-
ments of the board are not very considerable ; I con-
ceive that the Deputy-Master of the Mint is indiffer-
ently paid ; he receives SON. a-year. There is no
doubt that hitherto almost all the duties of the Master
of the Mint have been performed by the deputy.
With regard to opening the coinage to public com-
petition, is it your opinion that that is a good recom-
mendation, or that that should be undertaken by the
Government ?—Mr. Burke, a very great authority,
in his sp. ech on Economical Reform, most strongly
recommends that the coinage should be carried on by
public competition. I may also mention, that it is
the opinion of Mr. Gladstone, who held the office of
Master of the Mint, that the coinage should be carried
on by competition. Mr. Cotton, who was Governor I
of the B tlik of England, and is now a director, and
whose opinion is, beyond doubt, of very great weight
Litt in the
entertains different sentiments. The .present Deputy.'
Master of the Mint is Captain Harness, who was
connected wits the Board of Trade.. ; he is a gentle-
man of great capacity ; he is convinced that it is by
contract that the business should be carried on, and
that a very great saving would result.
.
Supposing that recommendation to be adopted
what do you consider would then be the duties of the
Master of the Mint ?—The Master of the Mi
first place would have to enter
. into contracts, and to
make every arrangement with reference to the con-
tracts, he would have to see that the contracts were pro-

,
perly fulfilled; he should take care that the coin was
properly executed ; he would have also to superintend
the whole of the department ; the Master of- the
Mint ought to be his own cashier : he has very large
sums of money in his hands, and he gives a power of
attorney to individulls in the Mint to draw on the
Bank of England for such sums as they think proper.
I think that that practice ought to cease, and that the
Master of the Mint should ascertain the exact sum
that is properly payable in every case for which he is
called to draw upon the Bank; and, in fact; that he
should investigate the accounts fur which he is re-
sponsible.
Mr. Henry Drummund—To whom does thelna-
cbinery for coining belong ?—lt belongs to the 'Mint.
To the Corporation P—Not to the moneyers : the
machinery is put up by the Government, and kept in
repair by the Government, when the coinage is not
goining on.
If you did it by contract, how would you arrange
with respect to the machinery ; would you make it
part of the contract that they should use that-machi-
nery, or might they use some other ?—lf ',we:enter
into a contract, we shall, of course, continue to supply
the machinery which is already in existence; and
which is of the best kind. I have here the terms of
the contract which it is proposed to enter into.
Is the coin assayed after it is struck, as well as
when it comes in as gross bullion P—Yes ; it is
first assayed by the Queen's assayer. The Queen's
assayer receives, I believe, 4s. for every ingot from
the Bank.
Every ingot of what weight P—The ingots amount
to about 800/. in value. When' the Queen's assayer
has assayed the gold, it is assayed by the Master's as-
sayer; and when melted, it is again ?assayed by the
Queen's assayer, and when coined, it is again assayed
by the Queen's assayer. ,
Mr. Ricardo—You mentioned that great profits;
were made by the moneyers ; are those profits en-
tirely made by their., contract ?—Entirely by their
contract.
Then it costs them less to coin the money than you
could contract to do it for P—Their expenses are far
less than their receipts.; therefore the contract is in-
jurious to the public, and ought to have been long
since put an end to.
Supposing you wanted to alter that contract, are
you entirely at their mercy ?—lt is that which pre-
sents the difficulty; the Master of the Mint is bound
at present, as the moneyers conceive, to contract
with them only; if they do not agree, I confess that
I do not see the way in which the matter is to be ac-
commodated between, them, sutposixx the .I:llpneyes
s.s.ere pight in their
,view. of.their ;. hut the
AttOrney And SolittitereGeneral ,have .bathe, given- sin
opinion, that the Master of the Mint is not bound to
contract with the moneyers.
Chairman—You were understood to say that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer has given notice to the
moneyers that the present system will be discon-
tinued; how long ago was that notice given P—The
notice was given to them merely in conversation in
Downing-street, I think, about three weeks ago ; a
regular notice has been drawn by the Solicitor for
the Treasury since that time. It is intended to give
them notice, which will expire in three months ; it
will then be necessary that we should determine
whether we shall coin ourselves, or whether we shall
do it by contract, thrown open to the world.
Is it a question under discussion whether there is
not a vested interest on the part of those persons in
this office ?—They claim to have a vested interest ;
they insist upon it that they are a corporation, and•
that the Master of the Mint is bound to contract with
them only. Indeed, by the indenture into which the
Master of the Mint enters, he covenants with the
Crown to employ themoneyers at certain rates. IVhat
course the moneyers mean to take Ido not know. I
have no hesitation in saying that my opinion is, that
if their contract is put an end to, theyought to receive
some compensation. The system is this, that the
moneyers, when one of them dies, appoint an appren-
tice ; the apprentice generally pays 1,000/. ; he serves
as an apprentice seven years, and then he becomes a
moneyer. I think it would be a very great hardship,
when the system has existed for centuries, that we
should suddenly avail ourselves of the prerogative of
the Crown to dismiss these persons who have been
living in great affluence, to reduce them to poverty,
and give them no compensation.
How many of them are there ?—Five.
Mr. Ricardo—Do you console: that if the Mint
either undertook the coinage itself, or entered into an
open contract for it, there would be a saving with
regard to the moneyers alone of 20,0001. a year f
No ;I do not think 20,0001. a year. I cannot ex-
actly tell you what the saving will be. I think if we
could induce the Attorney- General to cooperate with
us in contracting the expenses of prosecution., we
should be able to effect a saving of 14,0001 or 15,000/.
a year. The Commissioners have recommended that
no prosecutions shall be undertaken for the issuing of
base coin. At present the issuing of base coin is pro-
secuted at the assizes and quarter sessions. The Mint
Commissioners have recommended that the issuers of
base coin should be proceeded againq by a summary
process. The Attorney-General does not, I believe,
take that view.
Wbat do you mean by summary process ?—Before
magistrates at petty sessions. The Attorney-General
takes a constitutional, but not an economical view, for
he insists that there shall be a trial by jury in every
case in which a bad shilling is issued. It was proved
before the Mint Commissioners that there was a case
of a woman who- had been imprisoned, I think, eight
times, for issuing bad coin. The expenses of her im-
prisonment, I am satisfied, amounted to several hun-
dred pounds.
It would be your advice rather to proceed by com-
promise of the matter, than to attempt to settle it in
a court of law ?—Most unquestionably ; I entertain a
very strong hope that we shall be able to come to an
amicable arrangement, because there is a proper dis-
position on both sides. •
Have you any rooms or office at the Mint ? N os
I have not.
How do you regulateyour attendance at the Mint ?
—I used to attend the Board.
Where did the Board sit ?—At the Mint every Wed-
nesday ; but when I found that my attendance was
merely formal, and that I could effect nothing until
there was a change of system, I discontinued
going
through what I found to be a mere ceremony.
In point of fact, at the present time your office,
now that the inquiry into the' system of the Mint is
over, is one more of responsibility than involving the
practical discharge of duties ?--7My duties now con-
sist in framing a new scheme for the government of
the Mint, by which I am convinced that great saving
will be effected.
If that system is carried into effect in either of the
ways you have pointed out, do you think that the
time of the Master of the Mint will be occupied with
his duties ?---I do not think that the whole of his
time will be occupied. For example, Ido not think
that when be is in attendance in the House of Com-
mons from four o'clock in the afternoon till' two in
the morning, he will be engaged in the business of
the Mint; but I think that a very considerable por-
tion of his time will be dedicated to his office, if he
does his duty.
You have filled the office of Vice-President of the
Board of Trade ; do you think that under the new
system, such as you have pointed out, at the Mint, it
would be practicable to unite the two offices of Mas-
ter of the Mint and ViCe-President of the Board of
Trade P—l am quite convinced that the Master of the
Mint can render far more service to the public by
not having any other office combined with his. The
best proof of that is, that none of my predecessors,
having other duties to attend to, ever thought of
making any effectual reform; and I do not think that
if I had been Vice-President of the Board of Trade,
my attention would have been directed to the Mint.
Chairman—What are the duties which you think
will devolve upon the Master of the Mint under the
new regulations; for what purposes will the attend-
ance of the Master of the Mint be required in his of
fice under the new system ?—I do not mean to say
that the office of Master of the Mint might not be
abolished, and that the perion , who is the deputy
might not perform all the duties; but, at the same
time, the Commissioners have recommended that
there should be a general superintendence exercised
by an officer analogous to the Master of the Mint.
How long after Sir G. Clerk ceased to be Master
of the Mint did that trial of thehpyx take place ?—I
think about eighteen months ; t e Lord Chancellor
had a great objection to hold a trial of the
opinion is that the trial of the pyx should PYx- My
once a year, if not more frequ tly ; tike place
at present, it
does not take place more than once in every three or
four years, and therefore it is not ascertained whether
the coin be in accordance with the standard or not.
Mr. Ricardo—What
the trial of the pvx P—The
trial of the pyx takes
place before the Lord Jhancellor
and a jury of twelve goldsmiths. Upon every coin-
age there is a certlin quantity of coin' d taken _
placed in what is called the pyx, and on the trial f the pyx this •
coin is, produced, and a jury of gold-
smiths examine and ascertain' whether it be correct,
according to the standard.
Is it an expensive process to the public ?—lco ; the
expense consists in having a dinner after the trial, to
which the Mint contribute 50/., and the, rest is con-
tributed by the goldsmiths , ,
• airman—What is the
objection to there being a
trial of the pyx every year ; why does the Lord

Chancellor object to it P—The Lord Chancellor ob-
jected because it takes up a whole day, and also be-
cause he thought it a mere form. Ido not, think it
by any Means a mere form, I think that the trial of
the. pyx should take place-at least twice a year, and
that- it Aunt(' take place; not before the Lord Chan-
cellor, but before some,person whom he should ep-'
point, say a Master in Chancery, who has less onerous
duties thin the Lord Chancellor.
How often has a trial of the pyx taken place, upon
the average, during the period that you have been
Master-of the ?—poly once.
Mr': Ricardo—They examine specimens ?—They
examine a certain number of speciniena of coin taken
casually.
They examine what there is in the Mint of that
coinage at the time ?—Yes.
liVtat there is in circulation undergoes no exami-
nation ?—lt ',undergoes no examination afcer the
coin is delivered at the Bank ; of course the BAnk
take care aot to receive any imperfect coin from the
Mint.

What is.the average amount of bullion in the
Mint ?—lt varies so much that I cannot exactly tell ;
sometimes there is a very great coinage, and some-
times I. very small quantity of gold is coined; this
year.l do not betieve that the coinage will be consi-
derable.
. .
Sir, G. Trollope—ls it not delivered to your from
the Bank of England, as required ?—Any person
may bring gold to the Mint -to be,coined, but practi-
cally our only customer is the Bank, be-causa the
Bank has precedence ; it would not be worth any-
body's whiter to leave gold. at the Mint Silt -vre-eoirtd.
return it, to them, the loss of interest npangold would
be so very great. Have you often a large accumulation of coined
money in the possession of the Mint P—Not of coin ;
we deliver the coin the moment it 'is ready to the
Bank.; but we often have a large quantity of bullion
in the Mint, for which I am responsible.
Mr. Bright—The labour, probably, would not be
more onerous than that of the chairman of the In-
land Revenue department or of the chairman of the
Customs, or of the heads of various other depart-
ments F—l am not acquainted with the duties of any
department excepting my own, therefore I cannot
judge by comparison.
Are there any reasons why the functionary en-
trusted with the chiefsuperintendence of the department
of the Mint should necessarily be in Parliament ?—I
do not conceive that there is any necessity for the
Master of the Mint being a Member of Parliament,
so far as the Alintt itself is,,coacerned.: ,The 'Master
ii the Mi4i,-T Wieve hitt atrikys been in Parliament,
bitrai, not conceive' that the presence of-tbeldaster-
of the Mint in Parliament is necessary for the dde
execution of his office.
1 .When the abuses to which you have alluded are
remedied, may the Committee suppose that the ma-
nagement of the Mint will be simplified, and that the
duties of those who have to superintend it will be ren-
dered less complex and more easy to be performed ?
—I think, on the contrary, that the duties of the Mas-
ter of the Mint will be very considerably increased,
if he is disposed to perform his duties; there are very
few public departments in which functionaries may
not escape from the performance of duties, if they are
so disposed.
Chairman—The Deputy-Master of the Mint has
his whole time occupied at Present ?—His whole time
is now occupied; he is engaged jointly with myself
in effecting the reforms to which I have adverted, he
has furnished me with a document, in which he has
suggested that the plan recommended by the Com-
missioners ought not to be adopted, bat that we should
proceed by contract, and not coin ourselves at the
Mint.

What is the nature of his duties 13—The duties of
the Deputy-Master of the Mint are various; the
Deputy-Master of the Mint receives large sums of
money from the Exchequer, with which he purchases
silver when it is advantageous to do so.
Does he exercise his discretion as to that ? —He
does ; a large profit is made by the coinage of silver
called "seignorage." By a judicious purchase of the
coinage of silver, a very considerable profit is effected
by the Government; there are instances in which
there has been a profit of 40,0001. by seignorage
alone; that is one of the duties of the Deputy-Master
of the Mint; the Deputy-Master of the Mint, in fact,
keeps all the accounts, and makes' all the payments.
Mr. Walter—Does the Deputy-Master of the Mint
give any security ?—Yes; 5,0001. •
If the coinage were thrown open to public compe-
tition, do you think that the Master of the Mint should
continue to be made personally responsible P—He
must be so, because the bullion is delivered to him ;
he delivers it to the contractors ; the contractors are
responsible to him, and he is responsible to the Crown.
Mr. Bright—ls it the fact that the Deputy-Mager
does, without consultation with anybody, make those
l doeslor o
fh et
hneo
Et txackheethe
ra d
upons ice at
hn
ods
e topinionransa
co!
tphuer cchhaas
ne sc
e;f
tions ?—I do not think he does. The late Deputy-
Master of the Mint was Mr. Morrison, a gentleman
of the highest reputation, who was in the Mint upwards
of fifty years. It was through him that those pur-
chases mostly took place, and I am convinced that the
public interest was most advantageously attended to
by Mr. Morrison.
Does the Deputy-Master make those purchases with-
out consulting the Master of the Mint ?—He does,
but I do not know whether it would not be conducive
to the public interest that the Master of the Mint
should exercise a check upon those purchases ; but at
the sampmeoi
tonisnltte dee
oittlpiases ttreier
:slat
of
to t
foft
ohsreamymat
Mint
tt
judgment
are
ee
nnot
t personsutphoen
sudsut shua
av
Yu
ears
subject.
Will you state to what account the
.profits of the
seignorage are carried ?—They are carried to the Ex-.
chequer ; the profit upon the coinage is paid into the:
Exchequer.
With regard to the profits of the Moneyers, how is
it proposed to dispose- of their profits under the- new
arrangement, supposing the coinage is carried on by
the Government ?—Of course the payment that is
made will be smaller, and the cost of the coinage will
be much less, and so far the public would gain.
Sir J. Trollope—Against that gain have you not
set off the present profits of the seignorage • will you
not lose the profits of the seignorage ?Not at all ;
the profits of the seignorage are unconnected with the
profits of the rnoneyers ; the seignorage, in fact, con,
gists of the difference between the real and the nominal
value of silver; there is no seignorage upon gold.
If you had silver coin delivered to you by contract,
should you still receive the seignorage as well ?--
Not in that case ; but of course it is our interest to
coin silver, since we have a profit upon it ; we have a
profit of 10 per cent. on silver.
You do not propose to dispense
having silver coin delivered by contr with that, by
act ?--Certain
not; silver is not the standard, and if it be not of thely full falue which it purports to bear no injury is done
to the public.
Mr. Walter--In short, as a general rule, is it not
considered that any standard coin should not be sub-
ject to seignorage ?—Certainl
gold has been p y • a seignorage for
roposed, '
but it has been, after much
consideration, determined that it would be injurious
to put a seignorage upon our gold.

----
NA.VAL INTELLIGENCE.
PORTSMOUTH, WEDNIISDAY:"-The Marquis and
Marchioness of Exeter have arrived at the Portland
Rote
Robert l, Southsea, fur the Purpose of putting their son
(Lord Cecil) on board of her Majesty's ship
Thetis, at Spithead, fur passage to join her Majesty's
ship Leander, at Lisbon, to which ship his Lordship
has been appointed.
The Stromboli steam-sloop, Comer Lord
Atnelius Beauclerk, came into
harbour thismand morning,
to lae dismantled and paid off.
The Illustrious, 72, Captain Gates,
alongside the Britannia, 120 ,
which is to be the fu-
is dismantling
Iture efficient ordinary guadship for the harbour, but
we do not think there willr be much efficiency in the
Britannia if she is to take to the old spars of the
Illustrious (two rates beneath her in classification),
which seems to be the case.
The Dauntless a crew-frigate,- Captain Halsted,
hauled out of the baain this
afternoon,
and will be
•
tried tomorrow morning with all her equipments
aboard.
The Lightning steam-vessel, Master-Commander
Pettey, returned to Woolwich this afternoon.

PLYMOUTH, SEPT. 10.—The Lords of the Admi-
raltymere present in the dockyard this morning
, and
mustered the whole of the workmen. After their in-
spection; theit-LOrdships gave leave to the men for
the remainder of the day. Sir F. Baring held a levee
this morning at the Superintendent's-office, at which
forty officers were presented, and it was subsequently
adjourned to to-morrow morning. Their Lordships
afterwards proceeded to Keyham Steam-yard, and in-
spected-the works now in progress, and also visited
the ordinary on board the Agincourt. After the
levee to-Luc:yl79w, the Lords of the !Admiralty will
proceed`to the Royal William Victualling-yard, and
in the evening will dine 'at the residence of the Port
Admiral, Sir William Hall Gage, in Government-
square. A. ball will take place in the evening at
Moorsheaci's Royal Hotel, under their Lordships'
patronage, on behalf of the destitute 'children of .sea-
men and soldiers. It is expected the Adinitalty' will
finish their inspections by Thursday, and proceed to
Pembroke on Friday in the Black Eagle steamer.