The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-13 00:00:00

NAVAL INTELLIGENCE.

MALTA, MARCH 4.—The French fleet, under com-
mand of Vice-Admiral P. Descl.ones, which left
Vourlah, as has been already stated, on the 20th ult.,
has not yet touched at Athens. They hove off the island
yesterday, and the three steamers, Cate, Magellan,
and Descartes, came into port. The Magellan re-
joined the Admiral, who was steering to the west, at
two o'clock this morning, and at three o'clock, r.m.,
the others are to sail. None of the officers are aware
of their destination.

The Ripon arrived yesterday, at two o'clock, r.sr.,
and the overland part of the mail by the Medusa on
the same day. at eight o'clock, P.M. On board the
Ripon was Vice-Admiral Austen, who goes out as
successor to the late Sir F. Collier, Commander-in-
Chid in the East Indies.

PORTSMOUTH, MARCH 12.—A collision took place
yesterday morning, off Beachy-head, between the
English barque Tay, of Greenock, 572 tons, Captain
Loogmill, in ballast, from London to Panama, and the
Prussian barque Commerce, 378 tons, Captain Knight,
from Torre Vecchia to Memel, laden with salt. Both
vessels sustained considerable damage. The Com-
merce had her bowsprit, jibboom, &e., carried en••
tirely away, stem gone, bows stove in, bulwarks and
cathead carried away. The Tay has received con-
siderable damage, and has been hauled alongside the
Dryad hulk in the harbour to repair. The Com-
merce has gone alongside the Town quay to dis-
charge. These vessels made this port in the course
of the night.

APPOINTMENTS.
WooLwicrr, MARCH 12.—Mate Gerald F. H.
Westley (1848), to the Stromboli steam-sloop at
Deronport.

Masters' Assistant George Bundock, to the Hastings
flag-ship, on the East India and China station.F.
Clerk George Pocock to the Hastings ; Gunner
George Wills to the Sharpshooter at Portsmouth.
CArpcntor William Dean, to the Assistance, fitting
for the Arctic expedition.
Captain H. rE Austin, C. 8., returned to town to-
day from Portsmouth, and nine healthy and robust

men arrived from the same port at Woolwich in the
afternoon, having been engaged by the gallant officer
fir service in the Resolute, fitting for the flag-ship of
the Arctic expedition.
The Magicienne steam-sloop; left Woolwich this
morning under the charge of Lieutenant Robertson,
far the purpose of being tried in deep water at the
eight miles run between the Nore and Mouse lighte,
with ballast and water tanks on board equivalent to.
her armament stores and crew and every other article
for sea-going service, and she is to return to Wool-
wich to-morrow evening.
The preparations for the launch of the Nankin, 50-
gun frigate, are proceeding rapidly, her anchors have
been suspended at her bows, and an ample supply of
strong new cable taken on board to-day. A con-
siderable space has been fitted up as booths on both
sides and under the bows of the vessel, and on board
of the hull of the 0:d Mastiff, surveying vessel, to
afford the friends of the Admiralty and the authori-
ties of the dockyard a fine view of the launch when it
takes place, at 230 P.M. on Saturday, March 16.
The figure•head is a representation, carved by Mr.
Hellyer, of Vice-Admiral Sir William Parker, Bart.,
G.C.8., Commander-in-Chief of the fleet at present
assembled on the coast of Greece. The vessel pre-
sents a very fine appearance, and her weather and
main decks have been payed with Jeffery's marine
glue. The Nankin is to be christened by Miss
Parker, daughter of the Gallant Admiral whose bust
is so appropriately placed at the bows of the vessel.
The following are the dimensions of the Nankin :

Ft. in.
Length between the perpendiculars 185 0
Length of keel for tonnage ... 153 01
Breadth extreme ... 50 10
Breadth for tonnage ... 50 2
Breadth moulded .. ... 49 6
Depth in hold ' ... 15 10
Burdens in tons (old measurement) 2049 6-94
An admirable and most commanding view of the
launch will be obtained from the thoroughfare through
the parish churchyard of Woolwich.
/11, id.

_acadamized streets are the worst that possibly can
be made. In such a street the soft absorbent material
becomes soaked with liquid filth, which, putrifying, sends
its noxious exhalations into the atmosphere. Where
there is a great traffic, the road wears so fast as to be
constantly under repair, while, by every indentation of
the surface, and the laying on of loose materials, the
friction is immensely incr.( asd. In wet weather it is
covered with mud, and in dry weather the air is loaded
with the dust of the disintegrated stones mingled wit'i
the filth caused by the traffic, producing disease of the
respiratory organs, and rapidly deteriorating food and
clothing in the houses, and the articles exposed for sale
in the neighbouring shops. If to these evils it is added,
that a macadamized road is the most expensive to keep
in repair, and costs four times as much to cleanse as a
paved road, I shall be borne out in saying, that such a
road in a town is an expensive nuisance which should be
done away with as soon as possible.—Builder.
THE CULLODEN MONUMENT. The Inverness
Courier says :—" This monument has now progressed
to some height, but the fund receives accessions so
slowly, that the possibility is anticipated of seeing the
monument stuck in a half-finished state, and so left
soon to become a shapeless heap of rubbish, not much
to the credit of that enthusiasm out of which the pro-
posal arose."

YORE, NEWCASTLE, AND BERWICK RAILWAY.-
The Admiralty have given their consent to this com-
rany's Bill for alteration in levels of Bishop Auckland
branch, being satisfied that the proposed crossing of the
river Wear is unobjectionaLle.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, March 12.
PROTECTION.
Lord REDESDALE presented petitions from North-
umberland and Worcester complaining of agricultural
distress, and praying for the imposition cf a protective
duty on the importation of agricultural produce. He
complained that, en the opening of Parliament, the
Noble Marquis (Lansdo ene) had stated that there was
every prospect of a diminution of the distress of which
the landholders complained, but, six weeks had elapsed
and that prophecy had not been fulfilled. The petitioners
attributed the depression under which they were
suffering solely to the alteration which tad taken place
in the law, and they considered that nothing could save
them but a return to the farmer system. The free-trade
system was repudiated by America and by every other
country, and he thought it was a most bold assertion to
say that we could net return to a protective
system. He believed they could, and he tholight
they would sooner or later return to protection.
The Noble Lord Rho had so long led the other side of
the House had declared that whoever should propose a
free import of corn must be mad, yet the Noble Lord
had seen that free import proposed and carried by one
who had all his lifa long opposed it. He, therefore, did
not despair (f a return to protection. The strength and
happiness of a nation depended upon its wealth, for
the richest would always be the most power-
ful nation, and always be enabled to give
its people plenty of work at good wages.
Taxation was;greatly increased in burden by everything
that tended to lower income, and thus the burden of the
malt tax had been greatly increased as a burden by the
fall in the price of barley. There had been throughout
the country a large reduction of wages, amounting to a
falling off in the income of the labouring population of
52,000,000/ a year. The Hon. Gentleman who moved
the Address in the House of Commons said
that the country had gained 91,000,0001. by
the repeal of the corn-laws. That Hon. Gentleman
had taken a famine year as his standard of comparison;
but if he had taken an ordinary year as his standard of
comparison, ho would have found that his saving would
have been only 40,000,000/.; and as it was money that
ruled, Lot produce, be (Lord Redesdale) contended that
there was a loss, because more had been lost in the price
by the famine than had been gained by the consumer.
The operation of the alteration had been to make wages
low, and yet the moment the landowners attempted to
lower wages there was an outcry against them in the
public papers for endeavouring to reduce wages to a
starvation point. An attempt had been made to draw a
distinction between the agricultural and manufactur-
ing interests.—(Hear, hear.) There was no such
distinction—the growing of corn and the conduct
of a pasturage-farm was a manufacture, and the land-
lord, instead of being the drone which he had been re-
presented, was a master manufacturer. But the agricul-
tural manufacturers laboured under difficulties which did
not affect the manufacturer of textile manufactures. The
agricultural manufacturer had to pay tither, he
could not work short time, and he had to fight
against a perpetual glut of his commodity in the
market, as this being the only country in which corn
was admitted duty free, we had the surplus of all
other countries poured into our market. Such was the
case at present, there was a glut; the complaint was
that there was nothing doing. It was the duty of
the Government to take care that they should not suffer
from the glut which Providence had created, and when
there was a glut in the market created by the super-
abundance of the produce cf our own land, the agricul-
turist was entitled to the exclusive possession of that
market until the glut should be cleared off. It would
not do to try the experiment of free trade too long. He
wished to havo the question argued calmly on its own
merits, he did not wish to excite party feelings, but he
felt convinced that our national prosperity depended on a
return to protection. Ile wished to ask Noble Lords
opposite to what they attributed the present state of
agricultural distress; and, secondly, whether they could
hold out any hope of an immediate enhancement in the
present price of grain, and if they could not, whether
they considered the present extent of land could be cul-
tivated at the present price of corn. Much had been
said of high farming, but high farming was an ex-
pensive proecse, and could not be carried on at
the present prices of corn. He also asked if
the Government could form any idea as to whet
the future price of corn would be under the present
system. There was nothing unreasonable in asking a
Uovernment what, in their opinion, would be the price
of corn under tl.e present system. They were working
under a system of which they were perfectly ignorant,
and which, in the opinion of all practical men, would
lead to ruin. Ho hoped, therefore, to receive an assurance
from the Government, either that they enter-
tained a hope of some rise of the price
of agricultural produce under the present state of things,
er that they contempla'ed some alteration in the present
state of the law.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was not surprised at
petitions of such a nature emanating from the inhabi•-
ants of those agricultural districts in which a certain
amount of distress did undoubtedly exist, but he was
surprised to find that a Member of that House could
gravely state with the petitioners that the cause of that
distress was the removal of the/duty on foreign corn, and
that the only remedy to be applied was a return to a
system of protection. The Noble Lord had put four
questions to him, and he should endeavour to answer the
first two with as much clearness as lay in his power;
but he must be excused if in dealing with the others he
displayed a greater amount of caution. He had been ono
of those who had combined their efforts far the removal
of restrictions which pressed heavily on articles of food,
and he had joined in those efforts from a belief that the
change which was thereby effected in the commercial
policy of the country, would ultimately prove beneficial
to the people at large, but he bad never supposed that
that change could be effected without coneieerable dif-
ficulty, and pressure of a temporary nature. But he
considered that the period of that difficulty and pressure
had now passed away, and that the distress under which
the agriculturists were now labouring arose from
causes wholly independent of that change, one being the
agitation which had so extensively existed throughout
the continent of Europe for the last two years, and an-
other he felt bound to add being the apprehension and
panic created among the agriculturists by those who en-
tertained ill-founded notions respecting the effect of the
removal of proteCtive duties. The Noble Lord com-
plained that the agriculturists were suffering from a glut,
from an overabundant supply of foreign corn. But what
was the fact? Why, that never in the history of the
country was stock known to be lower, for as far as could
be collected from all the docks and warehouses in Lon-
don the amount of stock in January this year was only
242,028 quarters, while at the same time last year it was
1,354,000 quarters, which was followed in the month of
February by an importation of 384,000 quarters,and in
the month of March by 623,000
quarters; the importa-
tion porta-
tion in February of this year being only 180,000 quar-
ters, the importation in the pre.eat month of March be-
ing-sensibly declining. Nor had they any reason to
expect that there would be any extensive importation
from abroad this year, as he had been informed that
the demand of other countries was now very great.
Taking the poorer classes as a whole, there never was a
time when the consumption of fJod amongst hem was

greeter. It had increased, and would he trus'e I,°till
increase, and lead the country to a greater degreo of
enjoyment and prosperity than we had experienced
hitherto. There was a progress towards wealth and pc.
pauperism, and the time he hoped was not far distant
when the beneficial results of this great exPerlinen
would be visible to ers )
The Earl of MALMESBURY said he believed that
the Noble Marquis was himself deceived, and tbat µn3f
the reason why he was attempting to deceive them.
the stock of wheat was low in the docks it was net to
the farm-yards. The most important part of his speech
;
rata that the time had not yet come when Govern:nen
could do any tbirg to alleviate agricultural distreeiz
Thousands would read that declaration to. morrow N 4th
pain and sorrow. Lie had three letters from clergYteen.
in Wiltshire, from districts purely agricultural, eeienbe
kg the difficulties with which the poor were conto1e
.;
big. The deposits in the savings banks were stesd%
decreasing. The best farm labourers had but seven
shillings a week, and the majority but six shillings
a wee k. The vicar of Bere said, in his letter,
that they were in the very last state of depressil
Families were living on four shillings a week. So 'nue
for the Noble Marquis's statement thst wages were
being raised .—(The Marquis of Lansdowne here made
a movement of dissent,) Well, he thought he had Did
so. The Noble Lord here read more extracts to the
same effect from various communications be had re-
ceived. There had been a general depreciation in ogt.'e
cultural produce. He reg Thuretted the declaration of the
Noble Marquis that he could offer no alleviation. "d
unjust positron in which the agricultural interest stop
0
was greatly the result of the policy of free trade. 1.0„.
poor-rates had increased one-third during.the last
years. Public opinion was daily growing in fsearthe
the substitution of a national rate for the relief of
ost
poor, The tenant-fermers had always been the in i,
quiet and loyal race in the country. Depend upon"
nothing but distress had compelled these men to n°7o
out and join in agitation. It is a common enresa°d
now to say—" The small farmers, they must go. Apta
for what were they to be sacrificed ? To the prosr%
of Manchester. They bad spent a whole evening
.12.
discussion of a motion resting on no broader groan'"
than that a man's garden had been cut through hoy.
a railway, and yet now they deliberately Oa
doned 200,000 families. The Noble Lord here read 'V..
statistical details in reply to some statements of
Cobden. That gentleman had applied the term ~ beel;,f
shoe interest "in reference to these sufferers. Sorne4d
the members of her Majesty's Government bad applied
to them terms scarcely more tender. He thought
time was not far distant when the foreign marten
would be glutted, and the manufacturers would look I.
vain for a home market. The depression of the
cultural interest would affect Manchester and other ma
nufacturing towns, fur any great class of the common:hie
could not be permanently depressed without aejurit'ete
others. But before he sat down he would ask the ui`a
Marquis a question—not whether the Government,
the present depressed state of the agricultural inteees,:
would return to protection—but whether the Galante'
would not in any case relieve their burdens utfi
placing the agriculturists upon an equality taxj
other classes of the community as regarded
Lion ?—(Hear.)
Lord REDESDALE wished to know distinctly
from her Majesty's Government if it were theirsi::f
tention to bring in any measure for the ratio
agricultural distress, now so prevalent
England?
trf
throug.
Earl GREY said that if the condition of the c00°35,
at present were compared with what it bad brea in 'got,
there would be found a very considerable advantage•l! A
withstanding all the murmurinthat had been raeit
about the want of protection. Ho was also astonished_
that Noble Lords had not considered what the condition
of the continent was for the last few years, and weille
facilities had been afforded to the English farmer for
conveyance of his produce by the railways. lie shoo;
say that he deplored the agricultural distress al Inn
as any person could, but he felt at a loss to whyaccount, „
no measure had been introduced in either House of 64
liament to indicate whether they wished for the law
1848, or that of 1835, or that of 1815, or whether t!'ele
wished for a fixed duty on corn, which they some tlin.
since so strongly denounced. He denied that there l'ed
anything of the agricultural distress so loudly conselai;),
of; and that whatever share of it did exist was not oritre7.
to any change in commercial restrictions; and, more-
over, over, he contended that the condition of the farmer
1849 was far better than in 1835, for it was evident
from the Gazette that there was more corn sold last year
than in many ef the preceding years, and that, too, 's
a higher price, which well accounted for"the farmyard
being devoid of corn-stacks. He would call the at-
tention cf their Lordship to the difference 1,.0
Vie price of corn in 1849 and in 1835. In the lat-
ter year the lowest price of wheat was 369, per
er
quarter; in the former it was no less than 338. • e
quarter, and in addition to that, he was prepared to Provo
that there was double the crop in 1849 to that of 183.
ei
Thus there was a greater produce and higher prices, an:
how, he asked, could agricultural distress be so woe'
complained of? He would also wish to remind their
Lordships that since 1835 there was a very considerable
reduction in the price of artificial food for cattle; for, in
looking to clover and other necessary food, it would be
at once seen that the price was much less last year than
it had been in 1835. He did not think it necessary e`"
allude to the falling off in the exportation of corn front
abroad for the last year, as his Noble Friend (the Mer•
quis of Lonsdowne) had proved that matter to the Wit'
faction of the House. He complained much of the Jar
guage used by some Noble Lords relative to the falling
off of prices in corn, because he believed that such /Or
guage tended to create an unnecessary panic in the court"
try, and would only require those Noble Lords to look to
France and Belgium, and they would find that Franca,
up to the late revolution, obtained 51s. 2d. per quarter,
whereas at present she gets only 235. ; and Belgium go,'
525. 2d. some few years since, but at present obtains owl
38s. 2d. per quarter.
Lord REDESDALE explained that he had not called
on Parliament to prevent a glut. That would have been
calling on Parliament to interfere with the course of na'
tare and of Providence. But he said Parliament could
prevent a glut of produce of our own land being egg"'
vated by an importation of foreign corn, and bad done
so by means of the corn-laws. The petition was ordered
to lie on the table.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the C!re
of Good Hope, praying to be exempted from receiving
transported convicts.

Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 12.
TAXATION OF THE COUNTRY.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
Mr. F. MAULE rose and said, he thought it was the
duty of the Government to state at once to the Howe
and to the country the course which they meant to take
with reference to that motion—a motion indefinite
its terms, and almost admissible by all parties. 130
which had been supported by the mover and seconder
in speeches of a totally different character. He fcund
in the motion a series of resolutions ending with a cor
elusion in which be entirely concurred.—(Bear, bran)
He certainly could not differ from his Hon. Friend in the
assertion that taxation was a disagreeable burden; and
neither could he differ from him in the conclusior, 1115;
the best means of lessening the pressure of that burden
was the diminution to the utmost extent practicable of
the expenditure of the country. But when Le came to
the speech of his Hon. Friend, he thought he could dis-
cern in that speech a proposal to deal with the public he.',
come withont any reference to the faith which was due
to the public creditor.—(Hear, hear.) He thought, too.
he could see in that speech a reckless attack on the salaries
of one part cuter class of individnals—he meant the
judges—whose position should be approached, if it was
to be approached at all, by that House with the most
careful consideration. His Hon. Friend had concluded
his speech by a general attack on the policy adopted in
this country in the year 1846, not in subsequent years;
and his Hon. Friend who had seconded the motion had
made that question entirely a question of protection or
free trade. His Hon. Friend had told them of the
many evils which would result from their perseverance
in that policy. Now, he (Mr. Fox Maule) was pre-
pared to contend that all'their recent experience showed
that that policy was one which bad conduced to the hap-
piness of the country, and to the promotion of the com-
fort of the great mass of the people; and come from
what quarter it might, her Majesty's Government were
prepared to deal with all the contingencies to which that
policy might give rise calmly, but with a firm resolution
to proceed in the steps which, in their opinion, they had
all eddy successfully trod.—(bear, hear.) He was nct
at alt clear that his Hon. Friend was himself quite con-
sistent in the course he was then pursuing. He thought
he remembered a time when his Hon. Friend, instaad of
considering cheap corn as the greatest bane to the agri-
cultural labourer and the farmer, considered it as one of
the greatest benefits they could enjoy—when he consi-
dered that the heaviest tax the people had to pay was the
landlords' monopoly of corn—and when he called on the
landlords to abandon that monopoly for the benefit of
the community at large.—(Hear, hear.) His Honour-
able Friend said that the supporters of our recent com-
mercial policy left out of their calculation the cost of
production. But seed formed one article in the cod"
d oAfndhorsaegailnabouthr°
cf production, and the price of seed had been lowered'
mbyanutahrlabilicYan
simi-
larly lowerel His Honourable Friend had, in
his opinion,
fal!en into an error into which
hcaodstbebenotho
the advocates of protection frequently fell, by sup-
peeing that the labouring classes of this country con-
sisted exclusively of agricultural labourers. But the
fact was that there was in this country a larger class of
labourer.; employed in commercial than in agricultural
pursuits. He was further prepared to maintain that in
the whole history of this country the labourers generally,
with the exception of those in a few, and only a few,
agricultural districts, had never been in a better position
then at present, when all the great articles of subsistence
were at an unusually low price. The only reduction
which his Hon. Friend could point out were reductions
in the salaries of the judges. But his Hon. Friend had
hinise!f shown that not many years ago those salaries
had been reduced; and the House was also aware the;
there was at present before them a Bill for legalising as
immediate reduction of the salary of the Lord Chief"
Justice of the Queen's Bench from 10,0.00/. to 8,000/.
and a pros[eetive reduction of the salary of the Chief
Justice of the Court of Common Pleas from B,OOOL to
7,0001. Those, however, were no doubt large salaries as
compared with the sala"ies paid in some other countries.
But any gentleman, and particularly any gentleman who
lived on his estate in the country, must know that one of
the proudest boasts of this country was the unquestioned
uprightness with which justice was administered in it
to all classes. It was manifestly desirable that the
services of the most corniet mt men in the country
connected with the profession of the law should be se-
cured for the discharge of the functions of judges, and
in order to attain that end the House should consider,
not what were the salaries paid to judges elsewhere, but

0

what
, was the proportion which those salat its bore to II o
411olunients of gentlemen practising among U 3 at the
bar e--(licar, hear.) Something had been said the
other night
about the sehries a,A to the America.n
i;4dges• But let the House rscollect what was the pos:-
;°e of those judges. The judge in the United States
i'..eired an exceedingly small salary, and at the age of
tY he was dismissed without any pro: Lime. eo matter
•,(I •
W vigorous his intellset might still continue to be.
The result of that system was, that a judge who had
13re'lled in a supreme court had frequently been c
Pelted to practise as counsel hefare a successor less dis-
itpaguished, perhaps, on the beach thin ho himself had
spn•—(llear.) That, surely, was not a pos'tion to
his lion. Friend would wish to reduce the judges
et this country. With regard to the salaries c f public
-"leers, he had only to observe that that was a question
*bleb • -• d• and upon which
be he could not in any way discuss,
amWould leave it to the house to decide as they
t think proper. But ho would warn them not to
Zattempt lightly to disturb the arrangements en which
it! Judicial system was founded. Her Majesty 's
414,!sters, he should observe, were not unmianfal
the Ole necessity of effecting every reduction which
•Y could think reasonable in the natiot al expendi-
eee
•lis Hon, iFriend had carried last year, by a
8111411 • • • • •
id majority, a motion similar to that then under
leg
sZationt and immediately after the adoption cf that
ei,:"°e, the Lords of the Treasury had addressed a-
-4.el earliestll the tooads of public departments, stating
mite the most rigid economy. He further found that •
3redeetions in the public expenditure to the amount of
ji°°°,ooo/. had been effected within the last three years.
thatat be confessed that when he looked to the items of ,
h xpenditure, as it at present stood, he could see no '
litl'ssibility of reducing it t 3 an extent sufficient to me!t. ;
vi"irs an• of his Hon. Friend. He presumed that his
r Friend could not mean to interfere with the inte-
teaa the national debt, nor with the Civil List, nor
trthe charges on the Consolidated Fund, with the
g'e exception of the salaries of the judges; nor with ,
e lion-effective service of the army, navy, and ord- !
ph"h",4), which was guaranteed by Parliament to former
;-"'io servants. Now, the whole of those charges I
pette ounted to 34,000,00 d. His Hon. Friend would, he
thllute9fl, provide for the maintenance of armaments for
fsrettle4tiortal defence. Even his.l.fon. Friend the Member
le 4° vest Riding of Yorkshire would leave a sum. of
e 000
,000/. to meet that charge; and that would give a
IC' of 44,000,000/. Then there were the miscellaneous'
cistlfeates, amounting to 3,800,0001., in which some re-
total might be effected from time to time; but the
th,al amount of all those items 'could not be much less
"1 about 47,000,000/. Under these circumstsinces h.e
for uuta
ask his note-Friend where he could find a margin
;ea reduction sufficient to enable him to diminish texa-
sill, et° an extent which would give any very sensibleli
tt,' to the industrious classes of this country ?
fintlilltained that unless they were prepared to shake thee 1
4414 q the public creditor in the honour of that. House,_.
th„",B they meant to violate the engagements intolracht
can' 'tad entered with public servants, they cot! no
FrieY °et the views of his Hon. Friend. But his Hon.
that had asked towards the conclusion of his speechld
he- farmers should be allowed to employ their an
ante.q Way they might think proper, and his Hon. Friend
riu u,"seussng that point had particularly referred to the
opiibition in this country to plant tobacco. Now e
Dist' Maule) should remind the House, in the first
et"ee, that the duty on tobacco had last year produced
013 e'en than 4,400,000/. ; and in the next place
lb:L,,t'etild observe that before the Act prohibiting the
..4'g of tobacco in this country had been passed in
110-t Scar 1829, it had been ascertained that tobacco could
eke ,e,e grown here without a protective duty to the j
erultant amount of somewhere near 600 per cent.
ta:t.e°o:lPlaieed that his Hoe. Friend, in framing that f
soetc,l, had not cleatly and distinctly stated the views ,
kola)
he wished to see carried into effect. He (Mr. F.
)31,-,a19 could not see a way of either approving of that
ha, °4 or of meeting it with a direct eagetive. It coil-
to—ed truisms which he could not deny, but, taken in
ee,,ll,aexion with the speeches by which it had been sup-
C'ed. it led to conclusions in which Le could nct con-
IT
a sie should therefore ask the House not to be
hst'ght in the trap set fur them by his Hon. Friend. He
4Psd they would well wiigh their voles upon that ee-
k". He asked them not to give their approval to a
tOrotihell.svhich, if carried, would spread doubt and dismay
that ugh all' [arts of the. country. He felt convinced
that would be the result ef their adoption of th
Oteselutions of his Hon. Friend; but as he felt that le
hl not deny the abstract truth of those resolutions, he
I,j'gged leave to meet the proposal by moving the previous
Zicee•—( Hear, hear.)
4.1".• MANGLES said that he hal the happiness of
brought
a near neighbour of his Hon. Friend who had
forward that motion, and as he had not last
t suPported a motion very nearly resembling it, he
Ind e
potoeen cfien asked by his constituents why be had
pursued a different course. He was, therefore,
Ilett
1141 s to take that opportunity of stating to the
e use and to his Hon. Friend why he had not sup-
port
ths'ecl him last year, and why he could not support him
*-eutna the present occasion. The reason was—and he
leled to state it without the slightest discourteosny.tha
i1„,8.11on. Friend—that he had no such reliancensistenchyi,
t''clsece—no such reliance on his political co
ofjZ°llld induce him to follow him upon that or upon any
t,-,,7r Political question.—(Hear,.. hear, and laughter.) At.
ii7eting held some time since at the White Lion—(A
nllrgh)—his Hon. Friend bad taken great corredhiitato
having
Lim-
-4e among the assembled agrtihunltunrfisttshef
Honourable
tt..
_year supported the
bt rimer for the West Riding of Yorkshire for effecting
arge reduction in the national expenditure. At that
11,t'eg he had done him (Mr. Mangles) the honour to
es, that he had voted with him upon that occa-
ra/a• The consequence was that he (Mr. Mangles) had
ese
14"4cleatly expected that his Hon. Friend would have
kl)Perted a similar motion brought forward 1
by the Hon. ,
a
ill for the West Riding on Friday last. But al-
ne,telier
a,gh he had seen his Hon. Friend in the House that
hstatnfs, he had been much surprised to find that ho had
fie appeared in the lobb and that he had fled away
41;111 the division. That was one reason why he was
.not
et, disposed to follow his Hon. Friend, an. d why, with-
lept. ,meaning any disrespect to. his Hon. Friend, he could.
so:.aelp looking at that motion as one. of those motions
Ich his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex had
lul Nled
flash in the pan" motions. He was prepared to
eon !sane with his Hon. Friend as regarded the present
dttien of the agricultural labourers in this country.
h° Maintained that in the district from which he and
q$ on. Friend came the great body of theagricultural
koourers were in a better condition at` ` the present
liklatot than they had been in bef ore the corn-laws
the been repealed. Last Sunday he had been in
at home
of a labourer, who had not been 11
himself, his wife alone haVing been
urn
(ks at the time.—(Laughter.) Well, but his
hr. Mangles) own lady had been there with him.
e Woman told him that her husband was employed
Barker, at Manor Farm, on wages of 12s. a
(14.'4, and she added that with that sum they
eywere Letter'
I,,4tlian they had formerly been when her husband had
_ 55
earning 15s. a week. The Hon. Baronet who bad
est
eeee
tt the amendment to the Address on the first night
land
*t:10 session had stated that the and in Lincolnshire
bascultivated in the most perfect manner possible. But
gip Mangles) found that at a recent held in
thetsethamp.tonshire, in a district adjoining Lincolnshire,
to o±l,ov. Sir G. Robinson, a Protectionist, had declared
114,1" Protectionists whom a- addressing tout he
kei,„found the thistles so strop in ' some fields that
ts6ebourhood that he should have supposed they bad
1() 7 meant for a fox-cover had it not been that they were
ilietrwig that the foxes could not have broken through
bar -(Derisive cheers, and laughter.) Hel (Al_n
elialles) had no hesitation in saying that the and .
real ountry might be improved to an extent which
hkll more than compensate for the reduction which
n recently taken place in the price
clod of agricultural
itt uee. He knew a case in which a tnant had been
Istta,b,le topay ;51. a year for a farm of 104 aereio.but.the.
et,„'"ord having recently drained. and otherwise Ina
tur49 it had let it to a man with abundant capital,ha
fourteen years, at the rate. of 1301. a yea".
11:;11ourablelariend had speken in terms
,of great sym-
tet3' of the condition of the small landowners
tr. this country. But he (Mr. Mangles) could tinder-
tile to say that in his part of the country the value
11:1;:led property had increased 100 per cent. within
tie last century. Great complaints of agricultural dis-
t, 's had no doubt proceeded from different parts of the
rY; but that could no. t be wondered at by any one who
Vsllected the discouraging language held to the farmers
e3Yitentlemen of the Protectionist party. His Honou_r-
Friend knew bow he (Mr. Mangles) hal hem de-
it,'Meed by his constituents—(Laughter)--for not having
ta:Ped the views of that party. lie felt convinced, how-
that all the agriculturists required was energy and
titsPirit of self-reliance to enable them to meet the
ciecumstances in which they were pl aced .
t},ir R. PEEL said he should imitate the example of
Clicl4e gentlemen who had preceded him, by stating as
th qY as he possibly could the grounds upon which he
bi'3lllcl give his vote upon that occasion. The motion of
El lion. Friend might be considered either in a commer
al or a financial t
of view. The Right Hon. Gen-
th'4lan the Secretary at War professed to consider that
ti!, Motion was meant to imply opinions upon commer-
tt,4l subjects, and that his Hon. Friend really intended
upon the Henss, to come to a decision unfavour-
i'e to the commercial policy which had been pursued
1;4 this country of late years. Now he (Sir Robert
pi °) had that confidence in the equity and in the opi-
'" f la' Honourable F that he firmly b elieved
s 0 13
tf,'i ilt f his Hon. Friend had inriendtended to ask the House
ei,',xpress an opinion upon
fthose principles ef comma.-
Pli'y he would have rained his reeolution to that
110"et:rin-d- 'would h ve brought that great question of
Ole clear issue, instead of attempting, by the use e
litlivoe, 1 phrases, to gain an advaritage.w.hich he could
gain used direct and intelligible language.
t st 11 lessif hechoualddhe believe that his Hon. Friend really
.11::irled to imply an opinion unfavourable to the
tenaercial policy which 'ed been pursued in this coun-
lel' of late years, because he had. the other night heard
113 lion. Friend declare that in his opifniotneit would have
h war to have
tt'ss impossible at the termination c
of feed in Engl:snd
kt4lntained by legislation the .
if a higher amount dia.n its pricepeeon the continent. His
ei°9. Friend took credit for the sagalcsiitys,of the views
and declared
rieh he had entertained in the ear
'5l it had been his publicly-expressed ih • opinion at that
Ood that they could not by artificial means raise. the
I,,'ee of corn here to a higher rate than that wiech It
e°eld naturally bring. Then, again, he found from
al
Si;,-`aternent of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary .
freer, that, at no very remote period, the
.principles of
t:ad- or at l, e abol o giel re-
qr.
ictions in the supplyeast oftho d, hadn fo never e
bad aative more
t"k4tdial' a more earnest, or a more persevering advocate
ien an this Hon. Fr' d (Hear.) Now, coupling those
APressed declarations with that credit for skgacity
Itch his Hon. Friend claimed for having alwaykfore-

THE SUN,

seen that on the termination of the war the natural price
of food would be the price maintained in this country—
! coupling together those facts, he could not believe, not-
; withst :tiding the suspicions of the Right Hon. Gsntle-
man, that his Hon, Frie id did not really mean, by equi-
vocal phrases, to gain an advantage for any particular
opinion upon the commercial q estion. Ile took the
premises of his Hon. Friend, and he found that his con-
clusion in favour cf economy was one that naturally
followed from his premises.
,But he (Sir R. Peel))
would wish for no better premises than those laid down
by his Hon. Friend in support of the principles adopted
.ain the year 1842 and in subsequent years. His Hon.
-Friend had recited that " whereas the present taxation
'of the country depresses all classes, and especially the
labouring classes." Well, he (Sir R. Peel) said that the
I:gain:esti inference from that was that the House had
acted most wisely in the year 1842 and in subsequent
years by removing restrictions on the supply of food,
and diminishing the taxes which pressed most heavily
on the labouring classes.—(Hear, hear.) Was not
that a fair and legitimate inference ? His Hon.
Friend proceeded to propose, that in the pre-
sent state of the taxation of the country, " it is the
opinion of this House that adequate means should be
taken to reduce the expenditure of the Government."
Now he (Sir R. Peel) defied any man to draw from
these premises such a conclusion as the fallowing, for in-
stance:—" Whereas the present taxation of the country
depresses all classes, and especially the labouring classes,
this House is of opinion that it would be desirable to re-
vert to the principles of taxation which were in force
before the year 1842, and to impose duties on the import
of those raw materials on which the industry of the
labouring classes chiefly depends."—(llear, bear.) Still
less, he thought, would it be in the power of his Hon.
Friend to draw any such conclusion as the following
from those premise :—" Whereas the present taxation
of the country depresses all classes, and especially the
labouring classes, this House is of opinion that the taxes
which were reduced, or repealed, in the year 1842, and
in subsequent years—namely, the taxes on corn, on
meat, on live animals, on salt meat, on bacon, on cheese,
and on butter, shall be restored to their former amount."
—(Hear, hear.) It would be utterly impossible for his
Hon. Friend to justify such a conclusion as that from
his premises. No; that which his Hon. Friend meant
—and it was a fact—was that the taxation that remained
pressed heavily on the productive industry and on the
comforts of the labouring classes, and that it was
therefore desirable that all practicable economy should
be introduced into the public expenditure. That ho
believed to be the motion of his Hon. Friend, and that
he believed to be his view and the view of those Hon.
Gentlemen who might vote with him. He thought it
would be utterly impossible for those who merely wished
to bring to an issue the question of an adherence to, or
an abandonment of, our recent commercial policy, to
follow his Hon. Friend so far as any commercial ques-
tion was involved in his resolutions. He agreed with
the lion. Gentleman who had seconded the motion, that
the merits of the commercial policy adopte i in this
country of late years should be mainly tested by the
answer to this question:—" Has the social condition of
the labouring classes in this country been improved by
the adoption of the principles of free trade, or has it
thereby been deteriorated—has, or has not, the command
of the labouring classes over the comforts and the
necessaries of lifa been increased by the abolition of
the legislative restrictions on the import of food?"
The Honourable Gentleman said—and no doubt said
truly—that if they could prove to him that the adop-
tion of the principles of free trade had really added to
the comforts of the labouring classes, he should at one
become a convert to those principles. The Honourable
Gentleman admitted that if the result had been pro-
duced, BO consideration could justify the continuance of
that protection which ho said was necessary for the
general benefit of the community. Well, he (Sir R.
Peel) thought that, so far as they could place any reli-
ance on the documents pith %Lich they had been fur-
-1 nished—so far as they could judge of the present ad
ministration of the poor-law, and of the number of un-
employed poor—so far as they could feirm a judgment
of the state of the rural districts—they had no right to
hirer that the
.comforts even of the agricultural classes
had been curtailed by the abolition of protection. Ile
knew that in some pasts of the country—and he deeply
regretted the fact—great distress prevailed; but they
should not consider the agricultural classes only. The core
dition of the great mass of the working community was
the test by which that question* should be tried. Speak-
ing, then, not of the whole body of the working classes,
bus of the agricultural labourers, he himself doubted
whether at this moment, after the aboliticn of protection,
there was net a greater command of all that was essential
to the enjoyment of humble life than at tho period of pro •
tection. The Hon. Gentleman said that there was much
distress at the present moment, and a great demand for
retrenchment. Why there had been great distress and a
demand for retrenchment at other periods, and those
periods when protection existed to the utmost. Yet the
Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the recurrence of
the distress and demand was an impeachment of the
justice of the commercial principles which had of late
years been adopted by this country. The Hon. Gen-
tleman would do well to consider whether or not it was
to the operation of free trade that the present low prices
were attributable. In his (Sir R. Peel's) opinion it had
been conclusively shown in preceding discussions that
there were other causes acting concurrently with the re-
moval of restriction which had produced these low
prices —(Hear,; hear)—that there were other causes
now in operation, which would in a great measure ac-
count for the depreciation in agricultural prices. But
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Drummond) said that he insisted
eugpeoinn
rit e
fetrhraetd ftroe et h
et ragdre should o
wth of t
o be
he extended,eee.
To
promotean,
l he
the growth of tobacco in some parts of Ireland might be
a benefit ; but he did not contend that a tax of 300 per
cent, should be levied on foreign tobacco, and that
the tobacco produced at home should be freo of
duty. Did be propose that home-grown tobacco
should be subjected to excise regulations, and then
be liable to pay the same duties as foreign tobacco ?
Ile said ho was no friend of protection; but that would
be protection to allow the growth of tobacco in this
country, and send it into the market free of duty,
whilst the grower of the foreign article was charged
300 per cent. What he apprehended tho Hose. Gentle-
man meant was, that legislative protection should be
removed, but that an excise duty, corresponding to the
customs duty, should be imposed. If so, then all he
(Sir R. Peel) could say was, that a smaller amount of
benefit to the agricultural list .rest was never proposed.—
(Hear, Lear.) Then with regard to the hop duty, his
Hon. Friend lived in a hop county, and on a fine August
evening it would no doubt be a picturesque scene to
witness tho labourers gathering untaxed hops. Well,
the Hon. Gentleman had great sympathy with the
unfortunate labourer who was prevented from growing
his hops, but he wished the Bon. Gentleman would
consider the position of others in less favoured parts of
the country, to whom a removal of the impediments upon
growing hops would be of no advantage whatever. Did
he think, when he said that duties must be re-imposed
upon corn, that to a man circumstanced as the Paisley
or Lancashire weaver it would he any satisfaction to
be told, " You have permission to collect your hops—
you may gather them from the hedge ; but it is neces-
sary that you should pay a heavy duty upon your bacon,
cheese, and corn? I am going to introduce a prohibitory
duty upon the import of corn and live animals, and the
compensation I offer you is permission to grow hops
without legislative interference." No; that same prin-
ciple which made his Hon. Friend desire that the labourer
of Surrey and Sussex should be permitted to grow hops,
was eatable of a mach larger extension, and the labourer
would be much more benefited by getting his provisions
at the lowest rate, than by giving him permission to
grow hops, and reviving the tax upon food. He looked
upon his Hon. Friend's intention as a bonafide intention
to justify a resolution of the House in favour of protec-
tive duties. He could not vote for the motion of the
Honourable Member for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden)
the other night, because he believed that in that mo-
tion the recitals were not correct, that the principle
which he assumed of bringing the expenditure down
to the amount of any particular year was a fallacious
principle, and that to sttampt to carry it out would
Is ad to mischief. (Hear, hear.) It appeared to
him that the motion of his Hon. Friend was open
to many of the objections which were urged against
that of Mr. Cubdenls. They both concurred in depre-
cating taxation which pressed upon the labouring classes,
and that in order to relieve them there should be a re-
duction of expenditure—Mr. Cobden said to the extent
of 6,000,000/. or 7,000,0001., but his Hon. Friend did not
propose any specific sum; he simply declared that ade-
quate means should be aopted to reduce the expendi-
ture of the country.. He (Sir R. Peel) concurred with
him. He believed that adequate means should be
adopted for that purpose, but he would tell him from past
experience that if the House of Commons saw that the
Government was impressed with the necessity of re-
trenchment, and was proceeding gradually in the course
of retrenchment, he doubted whether upon the whole it
was not better for the House of Commons to stand by
and permit the Government to take its own course,
rather than to make general declarations of economy
without pointing out the mode in which it was to be
accomplished. Now he would tell his Hon Friend that
ho had no confidence in the persevering, reflecting, sys-
tematic economy of the House of Commons. He knew
that House was very apt to have hot and cold fits of
saving.—(Hear, and a laugh.) That he knew. He
knew that at one time the House of Commons would be
decidedly in favour, he would not say of a lavish expendi-
ture, but cf considerable expenditure, and that at ano-
ther time it would be decidedly in favour of a sudden
and precipitate retrenchment. He was speaking now of
aa Reform Parliament, and he did not believe that, judg-
ing from its CollrfiC.' for several successive years, the Re-
form Parliament had promoted economy. This ho knew
—that the Government with which he had been con-
nected, as well as ether Governments, had had very
great difficulty in prosperous times, and when the hot fit
of expenditure was upon the House cf Commons, in re-
sisting the desiie of the House to increase the expendi-
ture. Therefore, though he did not deny that, when-
ever there a as a pressure upon some classes, there was a
warm desire for immediate retrenchment; Jet, he had
more confidence in the progressive, reflective retrench
meat of a Government, than he had in the varying,
vacillating policy of the House of Commons, with regard
to a reduction of the expenditure. Were they then to
vote for the motion cf his Hon. Friend in favour of eco•
norm ? If they did, he thought, after the experience of
the last fortnight, they would be placed in a most pecu-
liar position. An abstract vote for the reduction of the
expenditure would justify the country in the expectation
that there was about to be a vast reduction of expendi-
ture. Why, if they agreed to that resolution, where
would they make their reductions? He was truly sorrytohear his Hon. Friend talk so loosely about keeping faith
with the public creditor, conshiering the name, connec-
tions, position, and high character of his Hon. Friend.
He thought it unworthy alike of his p:sition and cha-
racter to countenance such lax notions with respect to
pet firming our obligations to the public creditor. But
what nee the great department of the expenditure which
he intended to reduce? Was it the salaries of the ptib-

LONDON,

lie officers? If it were so, would it not be much batter
to let the H>o. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley)
bring f sward the motion of which ho had given notice,
and have it discussed upon its own intrinsic merits, than
emharrass that discussion by any vague or General reso-
lution, such ft) the -one before the House? Whatever
his Hon. Friend might say, he (Sir R. l'eel) did not be-
lieve that be intended to diminish the confidence of the
public creditor—he did not believe that he jut mded to
reduce the civil list, and that he concurred in the posi-
tion taken by the Hon. Member fit the West Riding the
other night, that an engagement having been contracted
by Parliament with the Crown at the commeacement of
the present reign, that that eat a solemn engagemeat
which we were bound to maintain.—(Hear.) Would
the House hold out an expectation that there should
be a reduction in the military expenditure? Why,
what was the vote which it came to only that more-
iug? On this, Tuesday night, the 12th of March, they
were called upon to encourage a general expectation in
the country that adequate means should be forthwith
adopted to reduce the expenditure of the country, and
he found that that very morning the House of Commons
refused to diminish the effective strength of the army
below 99,128 men by a majority 0f223 to 50. That was
the vote which the House had come to. Thus they had
exclude! the public creditor and the civil list, whilst the
question of salaries had better be maintained for separate
consideration.—(Hear, hear.) The other great items of
the public expenditure were the army, navy, and
ordnance—chiefly the army and navy; and they ap-
proached them on this day early in the evening, having
at a very early period of the morning declared by a
majority of 223 to 50 that the effective force should be
maintained at 99,128 men, which governed the whole
expenditure of the army estimates; and at a late hour
that morning had determined by a majority of 117 to 19
to maintain a force of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines.
—(Hear, hear.) Now he was decidedly in favour of
the policy and necessity of retrenchment. He believed
there were many taxes which now premed upon the
energies of the country, and diminished the comforts of
the great mass, the reduction of which, if it could be
effected consistent'y with good faith and the
public security, would confer inestimable benefit.
Nay more, he believed that in time of peace, and
in order to carry out the principle of retrenchment, they
must consent to incur some risk.—(Hear,•hear.) If they
chose to declare that they would have their garrisons
and fortifications in a complete state at all times, he ven-
tured to say that no amount of annual expenditure
would be sufficient for the purpose. If they adopted the
opinions of military men, who said they would throw
upon Parliament the whole responsibility of a war sud-
denly breaking out, and the consequences which might
result therefrom, they would overwhelm the country with
expenditure, and ho thought, therefore, that the Govern-
ment ought to feel assured that the House of Commons
would protect them if they did incur, with respect to
some of our distant possessions, a portion of tbat re-
sponsibility which must be incurred by making a saving,
and their not. being found in a state of preparation in
the event of a sudden attack. He went further. Bellum
parole si pacem veils was a maxim which could not be
contradicted; but at the same time it was one which
must be received with great qualification and reserve.
With respect to many uf our means of defence, they
could not be called suddenly into action. They must,
therefore, be always maintained, even at a period
of peace, in a state cf efficiency. But he be-
'Lys:a they consulted their true interests and the strength
of the country by husbanding their resources, and trust-
ing to those latent and dormant energies which, when
called out, would rally this gallant and glorious people
around the national standard, and enable us to set at
defiance all the insults or menaces of foreigners.—
(Cheers.) lie agreed that the maintenance by foreign
powers of such enormous cstiblishments ought to act as
a warning as well as an example. Foreign powers
might be impressed with the idea that they thus rendered
themselves exempt from attack, but he believed that the
system overburdened their people, and that no greater
benefit could be conferred upon the human race than
those powers consenting to maintain their relative posi-
tions towards each other, and each reducing its army.—
(Hear, hear.) It was the aggregate of their military
force which was ulidermining the very foundation of
their prosperity, and the financial trial, when it came,
would be a most severe one. His opinion was, with re-
ference to all the powers—Russia, Prussia, France, and
Austria—that if they had but the good sense to maintain
their relative strength, and put down some portion of
the enormous expenditure which they were at present
incurring by the maintenance of their armies, they
would not diminish their security, but greatly contribute
to their prosperity. Still, the example which they set
could not be disregarded; and if they chose to have
those, enormous establishments, it did impose upon this
country the necessity, he would not say to make corres-
ponding preparations, but at least not to diminish its
force to the extent to which we should diminish it if all
fear and apprehension of a sudden attack were altogether
removed. These were his views with regard to -this
question. But he did advise the House of Commons
to apply itself to economy in practical details, and not
to give votes on one day of 223 to 50 in favour of the
maintenance of an army of 100,000 men, and of 170 to
19 in favour of 39,000 seamen and 11,000 marines; and
on the very same day to come to a general resolution
justifying a general expectation on the part of the
country that some great reduction would take place.
On these grounds, then, he could not vote for the finan-
cial part of the motion of his Hon. Friend. Ho be-
lieved that, if carried, it would end but in delusion, and
that the House of Commons would say, " Here we,
have performed a great work ; we have come to this
glorious resolution; and, reposing upon our laurels, we,
need not apply ourselves to the active and somewhat in-
vidious duty of attending to economy in smaller
details."
Mr. NEWDEGATE would support the motion, be-
cause it was justified by theeircumetances of the country,
and intelligible in. itself. Notwithstanding the asser-
tions of Hon. Gentlemen opposite to the contrary, it
was well known that a largo majority of the labourers
of the country were dependent on agriculture for sup-
port.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth contended that the low prices of
agricultural produce were not caused by his free trade
measures, and yet those measures were passed avowedly
to produce low prices. It was amusing to hear the
Right Hon. Baronet taunt the Hon. Member for %Vest
Surrey with inconsistency.—[Sir R. PEEL denied that he
had done so.] If the Hon. Member for West Surrey
proved an advocate of free-trade doctrines, the county
would probably not return him again to enlighten the
House by his eloquence. With respect to the pressure
of taxation during the war and in the present day, it
would be found, if the difference of the currency were
taken into account, that the taxation of 1813 did not ex-
ceed that of 1849. If the populatien had increased one-
third, agricultural produce had been reduced 47 percent.
in value since 1813, and the exports had diminished 70
per cent. in value. He concurred in what had fallen
from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir IL Peel) as to main-
taining the requisite establishments, but he could not
acquiesce in the attempt to set aside the consideration of
the question before the House.
Mr. EVELYN expressed his intention to support the
motion. He had been sent to that Rouse to support re-
duction of expenditure, which appeared to afford the
only chance of roli, f to the country..
Colonel SIBTHORP supported the motion. As re-
garded the vote of that morning refined to by the Right
lion. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), they bead the consolation of
reflecting that it was the very fat her of inconsistency
that made the charge. The farms ra to a man would pat
their shoulders to the wheel for the+ purpose of shoving
the present Ministers from their pl aces, but not with the
view of putting the Right Hone unable Member for
Tamworth in their position with !his friend and ally
the Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire as
Chancellor of the Exchequer. Those gentlemen who
now voted for Government, expectaents of office, or pro-
bably paid for their support, would be the first to retract
their errors on the hustings and ta7ee protection for their
watchword.
Colonel THOMPSON had felt 'himself somewhat in
the predicament of the navigator, who, when asked to
j in in some doubtful religious ceremonial, said, "If
this is the devil, I worship God." He had some idea of
oaring his vote on the other side of the House under a
similar protest, and would probably have done so had
he heard nothing but the speeche of the Honourable
Mover. But what was to be done ts4;th the speech of the
Honourable Seconder, who, with:' all the eloquence
for which he was remarkable, imr'pressed the House
with the idea that every one who voted fir the motion
must be held as voting to raise the price of corn ? The
bait was reduction of taxation ; the hook protection to
agriculture. The Honourable S econder avowed tae
object without any appearance OS disguise ; and he
(Colonel Thompson) must, under these circumstances,
be permitted' to decline voting with the ether side of the
House.

Mr. WOOD observed, that when. be found a Member
so distinguished as the Honourable,* Member tor West
Surrey, than whom none knew better how to assert what
he meant, proposing an Ostract r*Dlution which con-
tained nothing but a political truism, he was obliged to
ask whether it did not mean somethir .g else. By far the
larger number of those who had supported the motion
had spoken of the dismal position of .the farmers in con-
sequence of free trade ; and at r.l/ events one party
might allege, were the motion carried. that it recognised
a right in the firmer to be preteut ed, whilst another
might interpret it as heralding a rt le I reduction in the
military establishments. The latter supposition would
be an entire delusion, because the tonourable Mover,
when an attempt was made to effe?. reduction in the
army, walked out of the House. Ti',ere was an impene-
trable mystsry about the motion ; b a t there was not so
with respect to the views of those who supported it,
though four or five Members on the other side had
vottd f retrenchment. Lie should support the previous
question.]

Mr. STAFFORD regarded the *observations of the
Hon. and Learned Member (Ur.. Wood) as a sign
of the times. The meaning was, Itbat he Would n, t
vote fJr the motion Le:Anse not onil:y he, but everybody
else, must agree with the principle t:t asset tad. On the
present occasion, as when the t motion of the Hun.
Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire was die-
eussei, the Government availed tb ie.mselves of the chi.-

ferent parties for the purpose of clt i•eatingeaeh in turn.
There was a good deal for rtfla4 ition, something for
mirth, but very little for hope, in t itch a state of parties
as the present. The time might nc tbe very far distant
—nearer than many liked to contet oplate—when those
who represented the agricultural int ;west in that House
might be compelled by the stress of circumstances no
longer to consent to keep any Gov nrnment in power by
that balance of parties • and when scich questions might
ba broached as the Noble Lordlim tell would be the first
to regret. He repeated it—wan they placed the agri.
cultural community cf this country ' in such a position
as to feel that their property was h sing eettroyed by
the legislation of the Government', they would nut
have that attachment to the "ari stocratie" (if they
pleased) t 9 the expensive institutions of this country, of
which they had hitherto been the Lout remost champions.
The Bight Hon. Baronet the Membe'for Tamworth said

WEDNESDAY

that his Hon. Friend, the Member for Wiest Surhhy had
spoken too loosely of meintaining the publ.l6:ocredit.
Certainly, allusions to that subject had of late been fre-
quent enough to be somewhat formidable and alarming;
but let it not be forgatten that alien they 'aTed of the
public fa:th, the agricultural constituencies—=he did not
say the agricultural Members, but they might be :changed
and successors, with other feelings be substituted for
them—frit that their property was being sacrificed
under circumstances which little inclined thorn to apply
the epithet " public faith," or " public honour" to the
mode in which it was done.--(Cheers from the Protec-
tionists.) Let no Hon. Gentleman say that he coun-
tenanced these things. Not at all. He put forward
these remarks in refereece to the whole system of the
expenditure cf this country, and he trusted that those
who had been adveceting reduction would not content
themselves with gibes and jeers at his Hon. Friend,
but would show how the principles they excelled so
loudly were compatible with the existing state of things
and how it ass they were prepared to refuse to the agri-
culturists either a re:urn to the system which had been
abandoned, or at all events a consistent carrying' out of
the principles which, being acted on to their 'injury,
were denied them to their benefit.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right lion. Baronet asked them whether they. would
have an excise placed on the farmer to the amount of
300 per cent. which was ex acted at the Customs horse
on the foreign grower of tobacco. To that be (Mr.
Stafford) replied, that he was not called upon to say
whether he would or not—that was not the argument.
If they were to have free trade let them have it, and let
the authors of the free-trade doctrine arrange the revenue
as they pleased. Precisely the same argument wa-
applicable with regard to malt ; and he asked,
whilst this system cf one-sided legislation was per-
sisted in, how could the agriculturists to expected
to feel that attachment to the Legislature which was
desirable? The Right Hon. Baronet and Right Hon.
Gentlemen upon the Treasury bench had told them that
the price of corn would certainly rise—would they tell
him at what price cheapness ceased to be a blessing and
became a curet, ? Why,
if cheapness were all in all, did
they promise that that bright vision of approaching
cheapness would soon be dimned by the cloud cf return-
ing high prices?—(Bear, hear.) The question might
be delayed for a time, but it could not be staved off alto-
gether, and it would be the duty of those who repre-
sented constituencies which suffered the most severely to
bring the matter forward again and again, to protest
against their one-sided legislation, to warn them of the
coming danger, and to tell them that no majority in that
House, and no apparent triumphs of Skilled and practised
debaters could convince a set of men whose fortunes
were being sacrificed to feel that attachment to the Le-
gislature which the farmers of England had always been
accustomed to feel, and in feeling which they had always
stood by the institutions of the country.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was not his intention to
have addressed the House upon the present motion, be-
cause it appeared to him too vague in its character, and
susceptible of no kind of explanation, had not the Hor.
Gentleman who had just sat down at that cool hour of
the evening made so very warm a speech. lie could not
help, therefore, taking notice cf some of his doctrines.
He understood the motion of the Hon. Gentleman to be,
a great reduction of taxation. The .Hon. Member for
Northamptonshire seemed to imply by his speech that
they impeded all reduction by the course they took; but
he denied that that was the case. It seemed to him, that
with the heavy debt they had, and for which they were
paying 28,000,000/. interest—with the expenses of the
Consolidated Fund and the full and half-pay—there was
very little, if these charges were to be defrayed, upon
which the reduction could be made,: unless by
reducing the number cf men in the army and navy.
It had been properly observed by the Right lion
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, that after the
votes of lest night it could not be set aside by
any division that might tike place that night. How,
under such circumstances, the Hon. Member for West
Surrey vas to arrive at any considerable reduction of
expenditure, it was impossible for him to say. One
Hon. Member had a motion on the paper for a reduction
of 10 per cent. upon all official sa'aries; but if they took
off 10 per cent. from all, including the members of the
Cabinet, it would just add to the public revenue the sum
of 40,000/., and what would he the great reduction of
taxation derived from that saving he would leave to the
Hon. Gentleman to explain.—(bear, hear.) Whe her
the reduction was right or not was another question,
which he should not discuss; but if they were to pre-
serve the public faith and the national credit, and to pa)
and defray the tensions of the soldiers and sailors
whom they had voted for the service of that year, and
if they did not think these numbers excessive, there was
hardly any great reduction that could be made. It was
said that the Government derived a great advantage
from being assisted one night by one side cf the
House, and the next night by the other side. Why, it
would be more advantageous to them, if it was pre's-
ticable, for them to adopt either one or the other of
these motions. If they had taken the suggestion of the
Honourable Member for Montrose they would probably
have his support and that of his friends, and if they
supported the restoration of the import duties ou
corn the Government W 33 assured that they would have
bad the support of Hon. Gentlemen on the other side.—
(Hear, hear.) It was, there fore, putting themselves in
a posit.on of greater difficulty, and was not giving them-
telves a fair chance, when they came forward and said
that they agree' with neither one side nor the other.
Why did they do so? Simply because such was their
conviction. The Ho,. Gentleman opposite had told
them that if they went on in their present course those
who sat on his side of the HOU3O would be inclined to vote
for measure, dangerous to the institutions of the coun-
try. It was impossible for him to believe that that
statement could have any foundation.
Mr. A.. STAFFORD said his remark was, not that
they should do so, but that they would be removed by
their constituents, and that their successors might do so.
Lord. J. RUSSELL—The lion. Geniternan in the
first part of his argument made no such reserve.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear," and " No, no.") Well, then he
would take it in the other sense. It was said that the
agricultural representatives would vote for mea-
sures dangerous to the institutions of the coun-
try, on the first alternative, it was a libel on the
party to which the Hon. Gentleman belonged; and in
the other alternative, it was a libel upon the agricultural
constituencies.—(Hear.) He did not believe that be-
cause their opinions with regard to protection were not
suffered to prevail—because the House had adopted
views opposed to the electors for the counties, that they
would send men inclined to vote for measures which
would be considered dangerous to the institutions of the
country. He was confirmed in that opinion by seeing a
statement made by a Noble Lord, from whom he gene-
rally diffeked, but for whom he entertained the highest
regard and respect—he meant the Duke of Richmond.
At a public meeting, at which the Noble Duke presided,
ono of the speakers having stated that the farmer's would
be no longer loyal and rapport the institutions of the
country, the Noble Duke immediately interrupted
him with great indignation, and appealed to the
meeting whether it was not true that there wou'd
be no change in the loyalty of the farmers ;
and he (Lord John Russell) was not sur-
prised to find that he had been supported
by the cheers of the great majority of the meeting. The
Hon. Gentleman had taken the trouble to repeat the oft-
refuted fallacies of free trade, and had again asked that
the farmers should be allowed to grow tabacco on the
principle cf free trade in all things. So far as the ques-
tion went at present, it was, whether the farmer would be
able to compete with foreign-grown tobacco with or with-
out a dote ? He contended that in neither case would
the English cultivator ba able to compete successfully
with the foreign grower. Another grievance that had
been urged by him, and no doubt it was true, was, that
the farmer was net allowed to moisten and dry his own
barley, and that the malt tea interfered with him. Here
again then there was no question of free trade, because
there was no foreign malt admitted free of duty. The
question was one merely relating to the taxation of the
country. That taxation had been considerably increased
by wars, and they had 24,000,0001, of interest per an•
num imposed upon the country in consequence of the
French and American wars. He did not know what
the Hen. Member for West Surrey thought o'
these ware. Ho (Lord John Russell) was
ono of those who thought they had been unwisely un-
dertaker, but, whether wisely or unwisely, the debts
had been contracted, and they could not get rid of them
—they must be honestly paid.—(clear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman had asked when did cheapness cease to be e
blessing, because, in the course of the debate in that
House, some Hor. Geetteman had given an opinion that
prices were likely to rise. All the errors upon that point
had arisen from a sentence in Adam Smith, which said
that nations pursuing their true interests acted just like
individuals—they sold its the dearest and bought in the
cheapest inarkete. What he (Lord J. Rutte:l) under-
stood Corn that was, that nations pursued their own in-
terests jest as individuals did; but the nation was not
compelled by law to buy in
dear articlegit
in the dearest. If parties wished to
vha
toerjeol
buy
a
in preference to a cheap whyonet,hecheapest not? market and sell
la-
tare was concerned in was, to take care that they should
not make dear what could be had cheap. He con-
tended that it was not right in a nation or a leeis:ature
to impose taxes to make articles manufactured by one
particular class dear—to injure the consumer at the ex-
pense of the producer. What the Government
wished was merely to see the people procuring
the necessaries of life at the cheapest possible rate.
It was naturally to be expected that if there was en
extraordinary, produce at borne and abroad, prices would
be low—and the existing cheapness might be supposed
t o arise from particulaerxpceicrtca greater
twhoeuyl d
might rise.
naturally Ju s t as if they were very high one year,
and a change in price. Tae principle of their legislation
was not to interfere in that case one way or auo:her. If
that were so, then there was no truth wi neever in the
aste:tion that they had only 'rewantecerF p'
ro anddu e
e that
next
ex prices
t year
a one-sided system of fie,.
trade. It could not to pretended that that House was
bound to abandon or do away with taxes for the purpose
of revenue. Let their taxes be laid on not to favour one
class at the expense of another—let them not have two
sorts cf taxes—one class paid for the benefit of the state
and the other paid into the pockets of individuals or a
class fit their exclusive benefit. In that point of view
the observations of the lion. Member fur West Surrey
were very inconsistent e its his argument, because, as
they had been engaged in expensive wars, and had in-
curred heavy debts anti liabilities requiring a large
amount cf taxation to defray, let them not add to that
taxation by having another species of t trees imposed,
which would not go into the Exchequer, but would go
into the pockets of individuals, and for the benefit of one
class against another. For these reasons and others
that had been urged by the Right Hon. Gentlemen the
Secretary at War, he could not assent to the motion c f
the lion. Member for West Surrey, bat would vote for
the previous question.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said he did not intend, nor was
it necessary to review the opinions expressed
.by the

Noble Lord, for he concludel by practically adnaitdng
all that the Honourable Gentleman the Member for West
Surrey had contended for. The Noble Lord .aid, that
in removing taxation they ought to take care that they
did not prejudice one class for the benefit of another.
That was the principle which he thought admitted of a
clear application to the case of the farmers of England.
Because, in the year 1850, now that the rte v system of
commercial policy had been for some time act ,d upon, if
the representations were true which the Right lion.
Baronet the Member for Tamwurth had that evening
made to the Houle, that the farmers were in a more
flourishing condition than they had bern for many years
past, how was it that they had adopted the coulee of
presenting numerous petitions to Parliament from various
channels, the object of which was to procure the repeal
of some of the taxation which they were subjected to?
People of all classes were saying that they were over-
burdened with the amount of taxation, and the answer
was that taxation had been reduced as far as it was pos-
sible to reduce it.--(Hear, bear.) The Honourable
Member far Northamptonshire had certainly stated
that his constituency were tolerably well off, but he had
not heard from any Honourable Gentleman con-
nected with the manufacturing districts how things
were going on there. Did any Hon. Gentleman con-
nected with Manchester know that the people of the
United States, at no very distant day, would be clothed
with articles of American manufacture ? But it was
now to China that they were to look for the security of
their manufsctut hag system. The circular of the Messrs.
Littledale, of Liverpool, showed plainly enongh that all
the trade likely to take place between England and
China would probably he endangered by a variety of
circumstances, and that there was a greet depression
amongst the country dealers, which depressed trade ex-
cessively. The time, in short, was fast approaching
when the cry of distress, now so great, would still be
greater. The charge of inconsistency brought against
those who opposed the motion for a reduction of the
army and those who would support the present mot:on
was unfounded. But how was this motion put ? By
the evasion cf the previous question. Though they
might meet it in that way, they might depend upon it
it would revert again and again. It was not for them
to decide when the reduction should be made, but
they maintained that in the present state of the country
the existing ausouut of taxation could not with justice be
maintainer', and for the reasons he had assigned he
would vote for the motian of the Member for West
Surrey, as a protest against the unjust system of taxa-
tion which pressed so severely upon the country.
Mr. BRIGHT said that if he were a man guided by
what was called authority, he should be somewhat puz-
zled which way to vote on the present occasion, for emi-
nent authorities had been ruling both ways with equal
emphasis. He had, however, read the resolution before
them with the greatest attention, and with reference
solely to its intrinsic claims, and he was most anxious
that the House should nut lose sight of the real nature
of that resolution, or be deterred from voting for it be-
cause it had been supported by some injudicious friends,
and by some untenable arguments. The resolution was
but half the resolution which the Hon. Gentleman pro-
posed last year, and was all the milder in cons( quence.
The proposition was, that although the Government had
this year, to a certain extent, lessened the expenditure,
they had not lessened it so much as they might have
done, and as the circumstances of the country required.
He (Mr. Bright) being entirely of thet opinion, should
vote for the resolution. It was always an easy mat-
ter to find fault with what wo did not like, and
accordingly the Gentlemen on the Treasury bench ob-
jected to the resolution as vague. As a practical
illustration of his distaste for the vague, the Right
Honourable Gentleman had wet this vague motion by
moving th. t vaguest of all amendments the pre-
vious ctestion, a proceeding certainly open t ) the chsge
of inconsistency, of which so much use had been made,
but involving this important a2inission on the part of
the Government, that they did not deny the truth of the
proposition, which, at inconvenient, they desired to get
id oft—(ilrar, hear.) If the House thought that the
taxation of the country was not too much, the House
would of course reject the motion: if the House, agree-
ing with its constituency. was more and more in f iveur
(ofeconetey, it would reject the suhttrfuge amendment._
Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had himself
afforded the very strongest argument in favour of the,
former course. The Right Honourable Gentlemen), al-
luding to the similar resolution of last year,—" Whereas
a greater amount of taxation is levied from the people
than is required for the good and efficient Government
ef the United Kingdom; and whereas, large sums are
expended t early in supporting needless places, extrava-
gant alerier, and uanecetsary works and establish-
mente,"—then, as in the resolutlon now before
the House, the Right II )pourable Gentleman, in
reference to the resolution of last year, dis-
tinctly stated that the resolution having Lean
adopted by the House, against an amendment of the
Noble Member for Middlesex, the Government had
accepted it, and bad, in consequence of that resolution,
sent a circular to all the public departments, reciting
the resolution, and requiring that in each the most
rigid economy should be set on toot.—(Hear, hear.) If,
then, the resolution of last year, no doubt equally de-
nounced by Government at the time as vague and need-
less, bad produced so salutary an effect, visible iu the
reductions in this year's estimates, it was a most fair
argument that, adopt the present resolution, and the
Government—a Government he fully belitv,d honestly
disposed to carry economy much further than they
had hitherto been able to carry it—would avail them-
selves of it as a Parramentary encouragement to recluse
the estimates still further next year, and as a source of
strength for them against the pernicious influences, un-
seen by the public and the House, which impeded their
onward progress in the direction ofeconotnic reform. The
Right Hon.Mensber for Tam worth had referred to the large
majorities in favour of the 12,000,000/. or 13,000,0001. of
army and navy expenditure, and tt erg might be some-
thing in what he said as regarded the majorities, but, at
all events, it had nothing to do with the minorities, who
were manifestly bound, in common consistency, to vote
for this resolutior.—(Hear.) It was certain, however,
that some of the lion. Gentlemen opposite, who had voted
against the Hon. Member for the West Riding and the
Eton. Member for Montrose, were now in a very awk-
ward predicament, thoroughly subjecting themselves to
the sercasms which the Right Hon. Baronet, to whom
they showed no mercy, had directed against them.—
( tlear,) Ho would advise those gentlemen to get out of
their predicament by adopting some definite conclusion;
he would advise them to be distinctly either for economy
or for the other thing.—(Hear, hear.) He made no ob-
jection to their calling for economy because the corn-
laws had been abolished; it was natural enough for the
representatives of the agricultural interest, a large por-
tion of whom indisputably were no longer in the pros-
roue condition of seine former yeare, to be stimulated
by that very fret more closely to investigate qusstines of
finance and expenditure, and to require irons the Govern-
ment the utmost possible economy. The Hon. Member
for Oxford had warned the House that the success of this
resolution would be trumpeted frith as a Protectionist
triumph over fret-trade principles. He was the last man
in the House to desire a triumph for protection over free
trade, and he would incidentally remark that the state-
ments of the Noble Member for Colchester, as to the
effect of f. ee trade on the uanufectures of Breclthrd
and Manchester, would be utterly repudiatel by those
manufacturers—(llea.., hear)—but protection was gone,
never, the believed, to return—certainly not in these '
days—and he was anxious they should not be for ever
quarrelling about a point that was settled. Let them
rather join fur an' object which all, Free-traders and Pro-
tectioni. te seemed t ) consider essential to the country;
let them combine, not to destroy the institutions of the
country—not to reduce the defences beloW the point
which was really deemed necesta-y—but to cut down,
with a steady and unsparing hand, the excrescences of
expenditure which the Government itselr year after
year, practica'ly admitted to be such, by 'diminithing
them to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
—(Hear.) The Government need not think this motion
hottle to them ; tle effect of the similar motion last
year, so far from being hostile to then, had been most
bend-ie.:el, by enabling them to carry out to a much
greater extent the economy which he honestly believed
them to be honestly desirous of accomplishing.—(Hear,
hear.) Believing, then, that this resolution would sti-
mulate and strengthen the Government, as that ef last
year had stimulated and strengthened them, believing
that no Prime Minister could bavo any interest in un-
necessary end wasteful expenditure, aid that the present
Prime Minister desired all such expenditure to be abo-
lished, he should, as a friend c f the Government—but,
if need were, still more as a friend to economy—support
the motion.—(ll, ar, hear.)
Mr. HENLEY saw no inconsistency in voting for this
motion after voting against the motions ef the Hen.
islemlems for the West Riding and Montrose. The cases
were quite difftrent. Hon. Gentlemen might very well
be indisposed to decide upon a particular number of men
or upon a particular expenditure, and yet be very anxi-
ous to lay devvn a general principle of economy. lie
was much amused with the manner in which the
lion. Member fur Tamwoith had given the go •bye to
the malt tax, but the Right Hon. Gentleman might
rely upon it that this was a questim in which the
agriculturists took very great interest indeed.—(hear.)
It was satisfactory to fled that this year the Govern-
ment, at all events, did not deny the principle ef the re-
solution sow proposed. The Noble L trd at the head of
the Government, after giving the House a little reading
from Adam Smith, and exp'aining the often-disputed
question as to the meaning ef buying in the cheapest
market and selling in the dearest, had said that he
thought that there was a great advantage in high prices
when they rose in a natural way. He (Mr. Henley) sure
posed, then, that the Noble Lord thought the high prices
of 1547 a great benefit to the country.—(Hear, hear.)
He had heard no tingle argument advance .I against the
motion, for although it had been said that it was
inconvenient and me ant rotting, no one had ventured
to deny that the necessities of the country required the
strictest economy that could safely be exercised. The
Fiore Member for Guiljferd indeed had seemed to
doubt whether there was any distress among the anri_
cultural body, but he thought the Honourable
Gentic-
man was singular in that opinion.—(Hear, hear.) They
certainly had not seen the fulfilaent of the prophecies
of prosperity which were heed out when a change
was made in their comer ercial policy; and there was
now, unquestiot ably, farm one end of the country
to the other, an universal cry that taxes could not
be borne.---(llear, hm ar.) He was the last man in the
Hous 5 to F.lll anything that could operate against public
.credit, but when the cry of distress was so universal, he
could not shut his eyes to the fact that every institution
of tie country etas, to a certain extent, in danger. Ile
hod regretted to hear the Saere ary-et-War state th stno
remission of taxation that ho was aware ef could give
relief to the people.
Mr. F. MAULE denied that he had made any such
stateree .t Ile. hA said that he saw in the resolution
of the lion. Member for %Vest Surrey tic remission of
taxation proposed that could give re lief to the people.
Mr. HENLEY continued—lt came to this, then, that
no pressure which such a motion could put upon the Go-
vernment was likely to produce such a remission t,f

EVENING, MARCH 13, 1850

tzxation as would give relief to the country. Ile re•
gretted to hear the statement 9( the Right Hon. Gentle•
man, because many parsons were anxious that the zees n 1
change in our corcteescia' policy should have a fair trial,
but they were satisfied it could not hate a fair trial uti-
le s the burelent now pressing upon the people were re-
moved or lightened. He would give his cordial support
to the motion, and he was confident that, if it were
carried, its effect would be to press down the public ex-
penditure.
Mr. HEY WORTH said they ought to reduce the
burdens on the country. Land was a manufacture for
the production cf food, which should be free from bur-
dens like any other manufacture. lie would transfer
the burden to property. If they did not except land,
he would join them in placine the difference that would
arise upon property. The Member for Tamworth had
made a speech for which the country was indebted to
him, and which would never die in the memory of those
who heard it. Ile should vote fur the resolution.
Mr. HUME agreed with the Hon. Member that taxa-
tion ought to be placed upon property. There was no
singularity in the Hon. Member—the Member for Oxford-
shire, Mr. Henley—stating that the country now cried out
for a reduction of taxation; but formerly, when the country
was crying out for a reduction of its burdens, there was not
one Hon Gentleman on that side of the House who said
one word about distress, and the burdens which the Hon.
Member now admitted to be general, were repudiated.
There was a cry of inconsistency raised with respect to
Hon. Members who might be disposed to vote for this
motion, but he (Mr. Hume) would not fall in with it.
He cared not from what qua-ter it came—whether Tory
Whig, or Radical, he was ready to suppott the principle.
—(Hear.) What was the motion before the House ?
It was , a necessity for a reduction of taxation.—
(Hear, hear.) From 1792 up to the present time,
the increase that took place in the salaries under
Government were almost incredible, and it was said
that those increases were owing to high prices of food;
but what he (Mr. Hume) would do now that the price of
food was brought down by the legislative changes which
had taken place, would be to fall back to the salaries of
1792. On th© 26:h of July, 1821, the House had come
to a determination that there should be a reduction of all
salaries, and that the cost of the army and navy should
be reduced to the standard of 1797, and the following
year showed a reduction of 3,000,0001., a considerable
reduction of the navy and all other branches having
taken place. He had no dcubt if the House would set to
work honestly on the subject, the country would derive
great benefit from its resolution. The present civil list
was the one settled in George the Fourth's time, and let
any Hon. Member compare the prices at that time with
those of the present, and ask himself ought the present
expensive sca'e be kept up? He (Mr. Hume) felt that
it ought not; and he therefore hoped
.that this resolu-
tion would be carried. He would advise the Govern-
ment to settle the question now, convinced that the
interests of the country required a settlement of it.
Ho would be prepared, before any Committee, to prove
that they could reduce the expenditure 10,009,000/, and
if they would take the establishaient of 1797, and ap-
proximate to that, he had no hesitation in saying they
would bririg down the expenditure from .50,000,000/.
to 40,000,000/, sterling.—(tleur, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, during the
time he was recently in charge of the Government, re-
duced the expenditure of the navy 1,000,000/. sterling;
and, if the present Government would go on in that way,
he (Mr. Hume) believed they would render the country
the greatest service. In 1833, he (Mr. Hume), was mem-
ber of a Committee, when they had 430 generals, and
since that time there hal te ,n 153 additional generals
made. He wished that Hon. Members would lay aside
the prejudices cf their politics, arid disabuse the minds of
farmers, by tolling them they could not have high pr:ces
now. By that course they would place the landed pro-
prietors upon a sefsr footing, and it was on those groads,
and in that spirit, that he should support the motion of
the Hon. Member.
Mr. PHILIP BENNET thought, from the remarks
which he had heard fell that night from Sir Rebert Peel,
that the Right lion, Baronet would not only support
this motion, but that ho would become a member e f the
" Peace Society.”—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Ho was
sorry, however, for the conclusion to which the Right
lion. Baronet had arrived. He had that morning re.
ceived information from the agricultural districts of
Suffolk, which showed a state of the greatest distress
in those district, and en amount of discontent which
would require the aid cf the police to keep in check. He
thought, tookiog at the causes which led to that state of
things, and at the condition of the sufihring classes, that
a system of the greatest economy was necessary, and in
that conviction he felt it to be his duty to support the
motion now before the House.
Mr. OSBORNE said that, representing as he did such
an enormous constituency, he did not wish to go to a
division without explaining the grounds on which he
had voted. He had not had the advantage of hearing
the speech of the Hon. Member for Manchester, but he
had heard the speeches of the Hon. Mover and of the
lion. Member fur the North Riding (Mr. Ceyley), and
the result which he had arrived at was, that lion. Gentle:
men opposite, who had been always opposed to economy,
or who invariably absented therasels es when motions for
retrenchment were brought forward, were now endea•
vouring to make a cat's-paw of Members on that (the
Ministerial) side of the House, in order to endanger the
policy that had been introduced by the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth.—(Hear, hear.) For
his part, he was determined to give no vote that would
endanger tie-A policy, and he declined becoming a cat's-
paw in the hands of the Hon. Member for West Surrey.
—(A laugh.) If the motion was intended to meal any-
thing, it was to be a reversal of the policy of free-trade;
but he should not take up the time of the House by going
into that sutject at present. Ho was ready to vote in
favour of every motion for a reduction in the army, the
navy, or the ordnance that the Honourable Gentleman
opposite might bring forward, but he could not give a
fallacious vote at their bidding, the object of which was
to endanger that policy which he believed to be of essen-
tial service to this country,—(hear, hear.)
Captain HARRIS believed that it was necessary to
keep up the establishments of a great empire like this
on a most efficient scale; but he must agree with the
Hon. Member for West Surrey, that a revision of the
taxation of the country was necessary, and in that revi-
sion the melt and hop chit:es should form most promi-
nent feature. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member for
Tamworth had carried a great legislative change in the
policy of this country; but he (Captain Harris)
believed that the Right Honourable Baronet
was now satisfied that he was not legislating
far the whole country. He (Captain Harris) believ-
ing that an adjustment of the burdens of the country was
cessary, should vote for the motion of the Hen. Mem-
ber for West surrey.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not detain the House
long, but if time and opportunity permitted him to go
into the speeches of Huy. Members in support c f this
traction, he thought he would be enabled to convince the
House of their fallacy. The Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down had said that he would vote for any mo-
tion that would enable them to remit any con-
siderable reduction of taxation ; but the lion.
Gentleman said that the object of his giving his
vote for this measure was, to reverse the policy
which had been recently adopted. lie 'contemplated
a duty on corn ef The reasons which he (Mr. La-
bouchere) should advance to the House, with a view of
ineucing it not to agree to the motion cf the Hon.
Member, would be altogether on different grounds. lie
thought the Government had given practical proof thet
they were disposed to reduce all unnecessary expenditure
and excessive taxation, and it was the intention of the
Government, as it was the duty of that House, t 3 reduce,
as they could such expenditure and taxation. He be-
lieved that in the Government establishments is the
year—the three great branches of the service—the :army,
navy, and ordnance—the amount of reduction effected
was not less than 730,000/., and, as compared with the
year before, not less than 1,000,0001, sterling. He was
aware that it was the duty of this House to take care
that every economy should be carried into effect as far
as could be consistently with the efficiency of the service,
acd he felt that it was the duty of the House to take
care that the public money should be expended with
the greatest possible economy ; and seeing that
the Government was acting in that spirit, he
thought it was meet unfair, most unjust, and
most ungrate fal, to put the Government in a
situation in which they must feel emesarrassruent
night after night. He bad a right to say that the
conduit of the Government did not justify any such
coutee.—(Hear, hear.) He felt that the evil cons( -
quences which would result from such a coute would
be fee greater than any annoyance that could be given
to the Government. He believed there never was a
time when it was of greater importance that the credit
of this country shoul f he held high than the present.
He believed, with the Ilon. Gentleman who brought
forward this motion, that great distress prevailed in the
country; but he felt that many of the statements which
had been made that night had Leen made without any
foundation, and that they were calculated to do the
greatest injury,—(Hear, hear, and loud cries of h Titne,
time.") lie would not detain the Mu e hut
for a vsry f•w minutes, He thought that every ind
tion of ecocowy had been given by the Government,
and
he hoped that Hon. Members would not embarrass the
Government, but allow the estimates to be gone on with.
One word only before he sat down. lie had heard with
the delight which the whole House had the very able
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tam-
worth—(Hear)—and he quite agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet that the strength of this country must de-
pend not on overgrown establishment.,but on Cs•
t iblishments suited to the wants of the empire; and he
agreed with him that it was not wise to push to an ex-
treme the care of our possessions, but he thought that
lion. Gentlemen misunderstood tt e Right llon. Baronet
when they supposed him to infer that they should shin-
don their possession of those colonies. His (Mr. Labou-
chere's) opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet's stat talent
with regard to tie celonies was that the Government c f
this country should be always in a position to afford to
them in time of danger the defence which they might
stand in need of, and as long es the Brithh empire hung
together this country could not escape from the discharge
of that duty.—(llear. hoer, and cheers.)
Sir BOBER PEEL acid he wai net aware until he
had heard the statement cf the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman the Presidont of the Boa d of Trade, that EO
extraordinary a construction had Leen put upon tfc
remarks he made relative to the maintenance of our
garrisons. No man would be more prepared than
himself to make vigorous exertions in defending
the British etrp're, whenever it was in danger.
What he said was, that with respect to so many garri-
sens in a time of p.ofound peace being kept in a state of
p if et cfil&eecy, would be impossible, without entsiliog
an overwhelming expense, and that rather than aclot t
such a opus:., he wo.uhl prefer trusting to the natural
exertions of the British empire to de'end any portion of
it, whenever danger arose.
Mr. MUN I Z t.a.id, that after the s' alert-lent c f the
Right Honoureble the Secretary of War, there was no
ort the motion cf the
alternative 1,„:t him but to supp

--
Honourable Membee for West Surrey. The Right
fI rnourable Gentlemen had ieformcd the House that
the motion of the Lienourable Member last session had
induced the Government t ) retrench to a considerable
extent in various pubic orlizes. With such an admis-
sion staring him in the face, how could he avoid giving
_his support to the rnwion, in the hope, and with the ex-
pectation, that further economic practices would be
pursue f. Before the motion was subtnittlel, the Go-
vernment came down and asked for an income-tax, on
the ground that the expenditure would rot exceed the
revenue ; but after his motion, they not only ma-le
the expenditure meet the revenue, but actually re-
duced. Taxation was intolerable, and it was quite clear
that something should be done to take the pressure off
industry.
Mr. BROTHERTON said, if he thought the motion
were calculated to reduce taxation for the benefit of the
community, he should certainly support it; but believing
it to be a trap into which the Honourable Member for
Birmingham had fallen, and looking at the intent and
meaning of those who proposed and supported it, he
should vote with the Government against the propel-
sition.—(lronical cheers.)
Lord DUNCAN said if the motion was a trap, it had
caught him as well as the Hon. Member for Birming-
ham. He not only saw nothing objectionable in it, but
something that he was prepared to support. He be-
lieved that it was brought forward with an honest in-
teation by the Hon. Member for West Surrey, and all
he hoped and expected in return for hie vote was that
when he (Lord Duncan) brought forward his motion for
repealing the taxes on light and air, Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, acting on similar principles, would afford him
the same support.
Mr. DRUMMOND replied. He felt neither indite
ation nor contempt towards those who called this a dis-
honest motion; such charges were altogether unworthy
of notice.—(Hear, hear.) But he would tell them what
motions were " sham motions"—they were those motions
that everybody knew would not press the Government.
—(Hear.) Certainly, however amusing might be the
discrepancies strung together in this motion, the discre-
pancies by which this motion had been opposed were not
less amusing. One Hon. Gentleteau said it was a mere
truism. "So powerful was it," said the Secietary at
War, " that the Government had acted upon it last
year"—(Cheers)—and another Hon. Gentleman said he
would not vote for it because he would not be made a
cat's paw.—(Laughter.) It appeared he had been mis-
understood when he dealt with the taxes that pressed pe-
culiarly on the labourer and the small farmer. He thought
he had been explicit enough, for he took tobacco and hops,
and various other things, as illustrations of articles the
cultivation of which ought not to be interfered with by
the Government. An Hon. Member had asked what ad-
vantage the people of Paisley would gain by the repeal
of the malt tax. It was true that what they drank was
not ale, but whisky; but it might as well be said that,
as they did not live upon wheaten bread, but on Scotch
porridge and oat cake, of what benefit to them
was the opening of the ports to foreign wheat?--
(Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Man-
gles) had contradicted one of his (Mr. Drumniond'e)
statement?, but he happened to receive a petition from
the people of Guildford that day, from which the House
would be able to judge which of the statements was most
accordant with the fact. (The Hon. Gentleman here
read an extract from the petition to the effect that the
petitioners, believing there was no probability of a return
to protection, considered the duty on malt, hops, and
bricks most inconsistent in principle, and unfair and in-
jurious to the farmer, and prayed for their total repeal,
and fir liberty to the farmer to grow any root whatso-
ever on his land. They also prayed, as the prices of all
ncedfel c( mmodities were considerably reduced, that all
public •
salates and pensions should be reduced in a cur-
responding degree.)—(Cheers.) " Believing there was
no probability of a return to protection "—this was the
language cf mcn who, they were always told, would
listen to nothing but getting back a ss. cuty on corn.
(fttar.) The Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Mangles)
newest neighbour—than whom a more respectable man
did not exist—called his labourers together lately and
told them, " My good fellows, I'm not able to pay yr'u
for your labour as I have done. Two courses are open
to me—l will either keep you all on at reduced wages,
or I must tern off some of you altogether." The men
took a day to consider of it, and they all agreed to
work for him at reduced wages.--(Hear, hear.)
He was surprised to hear Honourable Gentlemen talk as
they had done about his making light of the publics
credit. What he said was, that they had not kept faith
with the public debtor—(Hear, hear)—and, therefire,
it was those Honourable Gentlemen, and not him, who
had taught the country to hold the public creditor so
very cheaply. He had several times said he would
rather vote for a higher property-tax than endanger the
rights of the public creditor. Whenever he heard Hon.
Gentlemen ta'k as they had done on this sulject, it
always forcibly reminded him of La Fontaiee's fable.
The public debtor 'yes like the poor animals which the
lion was told it had done too great an honour to by
cracking their bones; but the public creditor, like the
jackass of the fa' le--(Laughter)—as soon as it saw it
was about to be interfered with, exclaimed, " Comment!
vous ne mangericz point le foie d'autrui."—(Renewed
laughter.) He had repeatedly warned the House of the
peril arising from the doctrines cf repudiation that
were growing up in the country; and the fact was, our
whole system of legislation had produced a most vicious
stats of things, enabling a few greedy capitalists to
realise colossal fortunes amidst a starving people.
And a remarkable proof of this was, that when Mr.
Pitt was enacting the legacy duty, he thought it
absurd to establish a legacy duty for the case of the
millionaire, as it was then supposed to be utterly impos-
sible that such enormous fortunes could be amassed by
particular individuals. In conclusion, he maintained that
this was no sham or covert motion; it was plain and in-
telligible; and therefore he looked for the support of the
House upon it.
The House then divided, when there appeared--
For putting Mr. Drummond's motion 156
Against putting it ...
... 190
Majority
—34
Mr. Drummond's motion was accordingly lost.
RELIEF OF OCCUPIERS NOT OWNERS OF LAND
FROM COUNTY AND POLICE RATES.
Sir HENRY HALFORD moved for leave to bring in
a Bill to relieve the occupiers of lands and tenements, not
being owners thereof; from the payment of county rates
and county police rates.
Mr. PACKE seconded the motion.
Mr. W. MILES d.:clared that the prop )sition came
upon him unawares, end called attention to some diffi-
culties that might arise in the operation of the Act, but
did not oppose the introduction of the Bill.
Sir. GEORGE GREY would not object to the intro.
ciuctien of the Bill. Tne effect of it would be to sepa-
rate the poor rate from the county rate, but he would not
than give any opinion on it.
After a few words from Mr. Acnrozenv and Mr.
Paean, the motion was agreed to.

ADMISSION OF JEWS TO PARLAMENT.
Mr. PAGE WOOD, in bringing forward the motion
of which he had given notice, would not detain the House
at any length. The ma.t2r which had ei ea rise to it
was notorious, and it was unnecessary for him to enter
into any detail on the subject. The House was aware
that the city of London had returned to Parliament,
when it first met, a gentleman who was unable to take
his seat in that House in consequence of certain oaths
which were necessary, or which were supposed to be nc-
c•:,e.sary, to be taken by Members at the table Wore tak-
ing a seat in that House. That gentleman afterwards,
in consequence of a Bill introduced and passed through
the House by a considerable majority being rejected in
another place, resigned bis seat, and the same gentle-
man was again returned by a large majority
of the electors of the city cf London.—(Hear.)
As one of those electors, and having been called upon
by several others a that great body (under other
circumstances it would be great presumption on his part
to do so), he had taken upon himself to submit this
motion to the House with a view to have a full inquiry
into all the circumstances which might be requisite for
the purposes of tie House arriving at a conclusion on
the subject.—(llear, hear) It was a matter which it
was puts impossible to withhold from the considera-
tion of the House far any length, .eel period. Nobody
could suppose that a gentleman, who was twice returned
by such an important constitueccy as that of the city of
had
Lond
been ake hie seat in the House, would be
permitted to remain in that situation without a decision
being come to oue way or the other with reference to
his position.—(Hear.) It was not for him (Mr. Page
Wood) to prejud.;e the question, his object merely was
to have a Committee of Inquiry appeintel, and he rested
his proposition on a prect dent he had found in the jour-
nals, meth reference to the case of Mr. Pease, when he
claimed a seat in tl SA House on making an effirmeCon,
be toad of taking the oaths in the form prescribed by
the latest Act of Parliament cn the subject—the Sth
Geo. 111. Upon that oc:asion Mr. Pease was not al-
lowed to take the ea' rmatioe until a full inquiry was made
on the subject; and he would precisely adopt the course
then t.ker, making only such changes in the form of
the motion as the peculiar circumstances of this case
rendered necessary. The form of the motion in Mr.
Pecse's ca e was, that a Select Committee should be ap-
pointed to iv-arch the journals cf the House, and to re-
port such pre.c!.dents and such Acts or parts of Acts of
Parlirme, t, ra relation to the persons celled Quakers
taking their seats, and making a solemn affirmation where
Oates ought to ho taken. Tee mctiou ho had to pre ant
to the House was the same, substituting the word Jews
for Quakers. He proposed to move for a " Select Com-
mittee to search the journals of this Louse, and to re-
port such precedents and such Acts, or parts of Acts of
Parliament, as relate to the question of Jews or other
persons being admitted to take their seats in Parliament
without being sworn upon the Holy Gospels
Yeas-; and, fur-
ther to irquire and report in N+ hat traater Joseph
, EFq., on taking his seat in this House, in the
year 1833, made affirmation to the effect cf the oaths
required by law to ben taken by Members bef, re taking
their sta. s in this Hse; and also to inquire and re-
port in wile' manner Jews end other persons not prc-
fessing the Christian religion are Permitted to make
oaths in courts of justice and other places where
an oath is a.lowed, authorisel, or required to be taken."
lie bAieved those inquiries would produce important in-
formation to assist and and guide the House in arriving
at a determirmeion as to the steps to be taken with re-
gard to the peculiar situation of the city cf London at the
p.essnt moment.—(llear, hear.) It there could be
unanimity in the question between both Houses of Par-
liament, to remove all doubt, that would be the proper
course to he taken, but at the same time he felt it was
of great importaece that the privileges of the House, of
which they had been at all times so tenacious, 'should
not be heedlessly fed.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
it would be quite impossible to assume that there was
n intention of Winging
forward any Bill for the pur-
pose of e( t ling this question. No one could suppose
that the whole matter of the election of Baron Roths-
&ila for the city of London should be determined
without inquiry, or should be excluded from the House,
or ..flowed to reu:a:n in his present position, or that the