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London, England, 1844-07-20 00:00:00

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had sheltered themselves from that competition, which
was augmented in consequence of the laws ,which they
yli had passed to protecsmOlSSs Wltii regard
to ths rithilber Cr labourers in Suffolk, he would ask
lion. Gentlemen connected with that county to look at
the returns which had lately been laid on the table of
that House. It appeared from those returns that is
that county alone 39,489 persons Were relieved clurifig
the quarter ending 1843, from the poor-rates. It ap-
peared that the number of paupers was 13 per cent. of the
whole population of the county, that in Sussex the
number of paupers was fourteen per cent. of the whole
population. Here was another proof that the popula-
tion was greater than the employment that could be
afforded. It appeared from the late census, which was
made up to 1841, that the increase in the population,
during the last ten years, had been something more than
fourteen per cent., and there was reason to believe that
the increase of births over deaths was as great in Suffolk
as in any other county. Now, how great a portion of
fourteen per cent. had Suffolk maintained on its own
soil? Nut more than six per cent. Only six per cent.
had remained to increase the population of the county,
and the rest were, by the necessity of the case, driven
to seek employment elsewhere. In the purely agri-
cultural counties they had retained on their
own soil a quarter of the per centage of
births over deaths as the population of those counties
fur the last ten years. But where had the surplus found
an asylum ? The returns would show ; for in Mon-
mouthshire the population had increased 36 per cent.,
though the number of births over deaths was 14 per
cent., or the same as that of the agricultural counties.
In Lancashire the increase was 24 per cent. In Durham,
where the mines were numerous, the increase was 27 per
cent. In Staffordshire, 24 per cent. In Warwickshire,
where the great manufacturing town of Birmingham
was, 19 percent. ; and in the West Riding of Yorkshire,
where the linen and worsted trades were carried on,
18 per cent. Thus it would be seen that the manufac•
taring districts had absorbed the surplus of the
population which the agricultural counties were unable
to employ. The effect of restrictions on trade' was
such as to make the natural source of employment less
than it would otherwise be, and even to make the culti-
vation of the soil less efficient than it would be if trade
were unrestricted. They might fail in their attempts to
free the industry of the labourers, but the increase of the
population would at length force them to do that which
they might have it in their power to yield to the wishes
of a large portion of their countrymen. He believed
that that House was accountable for the crimes that were
taking place in Suffolk, Sussex, Norfolk, and Cam-
bridgeshire, and that this state of things arose
from their own vicious legislation, and would
continue till their return to sound principles.
They forgot that property had any duties.—(Hear.)
Th9y considered that they had nothing to do but to put
their rents in their pockets. Quad tuum tene seemed to
be their motto, and those who were under them were
helpless because they were poor, and they had no political
power, beceause the landlords usurped it themselves. He
had seen, in one newspaper, ninety-eight advertisements
for the sale of farming stock at one time. One would
say that the landowners suffered by this, but in
consequence of another law, that was just less
bad than the one which he was condemning,
the landlord seized upon everything when one of his
tenants failed, and left nothing for the wheelwright and
grocer, to whom he might be indebted.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") Then, had they nothing to answer for
the mode in which they kept game? A Noble Lord, a
relation of the Hon. Member for Suffolk, quoted the
opinion of Mr. Neave, who said that the farmers justly
complained of the enormous quantity of game, by which
their crops were quite" eaten up. That these deprived
them of more food than would keep the poor of the
parish; and he instanced one farm of' 200 acres, on which
2,000 rabbits had been killed, and he calculated that
these destroyed more than 300 sheep would in the same
time. It was necessary that those things should
be stated. If they were true, it was a dis-
grace to the landowners. If it were untrue
he should be glad of it, and he would not state it again,
either there or elsewhere. A rural poliee was kept up
by the gentry to watch game, and to prevent poaching.
Look to what had taken place on the estate of the Noble
Lord the Member for North Lancashire. A gamekeeper
had been killed, for which one person was hanged, and
four others were in the Penitentiary, or on their way to-
the penal settlements. Thus six families were deprived
of their husbands and fathers for the purpose of main-
taining those puerile and childish sports which should
be condemned in a country so densely populated as this.
A circumstance of a similar nature occurred on the
estate of the Marquis of Normanby, and also in the
county of Surrey and in Coventry. In Scotland, the
farmers complained of this system as destructive of their
farms, and demoralising to the minds of themselves and
their labourers. Misery, from suffering, was at the bot-
tom of the outrages which had taken place, and though
the Hon. Gentlemen opposite might seem to deny it, he
believed in his conscience that they knew it to be case.
He had yesterday travelled from Gravesend to Canter-
bury, and from thence to town, and no person could see
the country through which he travelled without coming
to the conclusion that the labouring population of the
country was grossly ignorant, and upon them rested the
reaponsibility. The consequence was, that their toil
was reqnited by a gaol, as poachers, or by the work-
house, as paupers. They said that this law was passed
to protect native industry. He asserted it was
passed to protect native idleness, and to impoverish
native industry. The Hon. Member for West Suffolk
made a speech, in which he believed he said that severer
punishments ought to be established in order to repress
the crime of burning. A return lately presented to the
House of the number of persons convicted and punished
for the crime of arson for some years past, showed that
front 1831 to 1836 the committals were 493, the convic-
tions 119, and the executions .58. Was it not a horrible
state of things which produced the destruction of so
much property, and then ended it—but it did
not end it—by the execution of fifty-eight of
their fellow-men ? He thought it was one of the
proudest boasts of the late Government, that they had
mitigated the terms of the criminal code, and he trusted
the present Government would follow their example.
From 1838 to 1843, during which time there, was no
hanging for burnings, the number of committals was
344, and the number of convictions 117, thus showing that
the number of convictions was greater in proportion-to
the number of committals, than when the punishment
was capital, because the juries were not desirous to
convict when they knew that death was the penalty.
Whoever might be anxious to return to the system of
hanging, in order to put down this system, the feeling
must be engendered by apprehension. The landlords lived
in a state of great diffiulty ; they kept watchers upon
nearly every farm ; being apprehensive of these dis-
asters, they became timid, and there was nothing so
near timidity as cowardice. Hanging would have no
effect in suppressing incendiarism. To suppose -that
such a state of things was to be, put down only by the
halter was absurd in the extreme. They knew that the
population was in a hopeless, miserable, and despairing
condition, and yet they had allowed the session to pass
by, and not one of them had proclaimed the calamities
which had afflicted their own districts ; but they now
taunted them, which was inimical to the interests
of those districts. Not one of their greatest flatterers in
their own counties would refuse to acknowledge that
they had on all occasions told the labourers that they
were not to blame the farmers for their low wages, but
the system which unhappily prevails in this country.—
(Hear, hear.)—They need not tell the farmers to rely
upon the assurance of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R.
Peel), made, in a tone of triumph which he did not as-
sume when he expected to be in a minority, that the
corn-law was to be continued for ever • but they should
teach them to rely upon that which all' men had relied
upon, who had succeeded best in. every decription of la-
bour—whether agricultural ,or manufacturing. There
were Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who as
much disapproved of such conduct as he (Mr. Bright) did.
They had protected the labourers into miserable
hovels, gaols, and workhouses.- The population was con-
stantly increasing, and they had no work for them ; the
manufacturing districts were continually drawing off a
portion of the population, which would otheswise in-
crease the existing calamity. He asked them now to do
a very small thing, in order to see whether farming
could not be carried on prosperously as well as- other
trades. He had only yesterday read the life of
William Caxton, -the first English printer. It ap-
peared from that that - an ordinance was passed in
the
engagedlandlords ih
thatl44lP thine "pleloicphlestatedime
coun-
try were greatly damaged by the reason of the bring-
sobfa ,that
i nt this
ing'of corn beyond the seas to keep down the price
in this country. Here were their ancestors, of
four hundred years ago—men who had no Adam
Smith to go to—men who received no such
lessons as had been given to Honourable Gen-
tleman opposite, session after session, by those
whom they had placed in power, using precisely the
language common in the present day. They had denied,
because they had not the power to give, protection to
labourers and manufacturers; and then, with a vast deal
of paint on the panels of their coaches, they came down
to the House to legislate for themselves. The worst
thing he wished them was, that when that retribution
came upon the landlords of this country, which must
come on such legislation, it might please Heaven to
bless them with greater mercy than they had shown to
the labourers of this country.
Col. RUSHBROOKE said the Hon. Gentleman had
accused him of advocating the infliction of the punish-
ment of death for this crime. He certainly understood
the language of the petition which he had presented on
that subject held it best that in a crime of this na-
ture capital punishment should be inflicted in extreme
cases. The Hon. Gentleman had charged him with
stating that there was no destitution whatever in the
county with which he was connected. He had spoken
only of his own neighbourhood ; what might be the case
in other districts he would not pretend to say.
Mr. BRAMSTONE said, the Hon. Gentleman had
said that there would be no difficulty in obtaining con-
victions in these cases. If a Commission were issued in
the time -and temper of the speeches of Hon. Gentlemen
opposite, thesswould have a general conflagration, instead
of a decrease in the number of fires. It was stated by
Mr. Baron Parke, in his charge to the grand jury, that
the great majority of the fires were• not committed by
agricultural labourers in distress, but by girls and boys
under ten years of age. Three children were to be'
tried, whose respective ages were 8,9, and 10 ; and it
appeared that, instead of being in a distressed condition,
they were living comfortably with their masters and
mistresses. He, for one, begged to thank the Right
Hon. Gentleman for refusing to grant this Commission.
Lord HENNIKER said it had been his duty to apply
to the Right Hon: Gentleman (Sir 1. Graham) on niore
than one occasion on this subject, and he begged to bear
his testimony to his earnest endeavours to ascertain the
causes of this incendiarism.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Member for Manchester formerly joined in the weed of
praise paid to the landlords and farmers of Suffolk, for
their conduct to the working classes.—(Dear, hear.)
That they were no less anxious now to promote the in-
terests of the working classes than in former times, was

.:•
. shown by the number of charitable institutions' whicti
'existed,in thatresaint.y. /f the , Hen. MeMber for
Derhama shduld ei,er +i'ht erasterti ,cliitilct 0 Suffolk,
he believed his opinion on this subject would unckrgo
an entire change.—(Hear, hear.) Although the Hon.
Member for Manchester had fairly stated the number of
fires, he had not fairly stated' the causes to which they
Were Attributable.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said he had not intended to bring 'any
special charge against the landlords of Suffolk espe-
cially. He believed his charge applied to those of the
whole country.—(Heat, hear.)
Mr. VILLIERS said, he thought the Right Hon.
Gentleman ought to regret the tone in which he had
refused to accede to the motion, seeing that the Noble
Lord (Henniker) had admitted that he went to him
for the purpose of urging upon him the necessity
of adopting some steps for the suppression
of the fires.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The Righ
Hon. Gentleman had commenced by saying that it would
not become him to impute motives ; he wished he had
not insinuated one. Why the Right Hon. Baronet had
introduced his measure for the alteration of the poor-law
solely in consequence of the agitation on the subject. If
he mistook not, the Right Hon. Baronet said that he had
done it unwillingly. Why did he not. address the same
sort of speech as he had addressed to the Hon. Member
for Manchester, to those Hon. Gentlemen who sat behind
him, when they urged on the question of the repeal of
the poor-law ?—(Cheers.) There was not a sentence of
his Honourable Friend's speech that was half so
inflammatory, or half so violent as the speeches which
he had heard made in that House on the subject of the
poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) Why did the Right Hon.-
Baronet reserve his attack fur the Hon. Member for
Manchester? Why, it was because, as had been just
observed by his lion. Friend the Member for Durham,
there was a peculiar sensitiveness on the subject, because
the majority of that House were interested in keeping
up an artificial price for the fruits of the soil.—(Cheers.)
It was not the free-traders who were to blame, because
the question of the corn-laws was introduced whenever
any question was raised as to the condition of the poor.
It was the landowners themselves who always made the
condition of the poor the excuse for maintaining the
corn-laws, they said the laws were to be maintained be-
cause they were for the benefit of the agricultural
labourer. The condition of the poor was always
pleaded as the excuse for maintaining these laws, and
now that the whole country was alarmed in consequence
of the incendiarism prevalent in these districts,
where the condition of the agricultural poor was known
to be so miserable, surely a motion for inquiring into
their condition was not ill-placed. The Hon. Gentle-
man who represented the county of Suffolk stated that
they had, not brought the condition of the poor of that
county before the House, because they had asked the
Right Hon. Baronet on the subject, and had confidence
in him. But if the House and the country wanted to
know the cause of the distress--the distress was not
caused by the-new Poor-law—it had been going on for
the last twenty years. As far back as 1824, they had
had evidence of the deteriorated condition of the people.
He had found letters in • the Times, describing the mise-
rable condition of the agricultural population in the
counties of Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex, written before
the new Poor-law was enacted. He would read to the
House a letter which appeared in the Times in the year
1830, signed " A Labourer."—(The ilon. Gentlemen
here read extracts from the letter referred to, in which
the writer represented the condition of the labouring
population as being miserable in the extreme. Their
wages were low, and he attributed that circumstance
to the operation of the old law, under which
the farmers paid their labourers half wages, and sent
them to the parish to make', up the difference.
The writer then went on to state, that he heard that a
law had been passed to keep up the price of corn, for the
good of the proprietors of land ; and he suggested the
propriety of passing a law compelling the farmer to pay
his labourer the value of three pecks of flour a week as
wages.) That letter had been made the subject of a
leading article in the Times in 1830. It was quite evi-
dent that the new poor-law was not an adequate cause to
account for the distress. The Times was quite right in
describing the people as in great distress ; and they had
been as much distressed under the old law as they were
under the new one. There had been something for the
last twenty years continually deteriorating the condition
of the people of this country ; and that was, that during
the whole of that period the population had been in-
creasing, the demand for employment had been dimi-
nishing; and the price of food had been rising. In 1824,
a clergyman, who had given evidence before a Commit-
tee of that House, stated that the condition of the people
was deteriorating, that their wages were low, and that
they were becoming pauperised. If ever there was an
occasion when inquiry into the condition of the_ poor
was called for, it was at the present moment. The Hon.
Members for-Suffolk said the people were well off ; at
the same time it could not be denied that these ineen-,
diary fires had occurred. The insurance-offices, it was
stated, had paid four times as much as they had received
in those counties ; and an idea was prevalent among the
proprietors of those offices, that the parties themselves
had in many instances destroyed the property. Seeing •
these various contradictory statements, the Government
ought to make inquiry. It was most desirable to ascer-
tain the cause of the distress, and his Hon. Friend the
Member for Manchester had done his duty in bringing'
it before the House. A more proper or a more discreet
motion could not be made, and he should certainly vote
in favour of it.

Sir J. TYRRELL thought the speeches of the Hon.
Members for Manchester and Durham were calculated
to excite the loWer orders, and possessed all the charac-:
teristics of incendiary speeches.
Mr. VILLIERS rose to order. He wished to know
what the Right •Hon. Baronet meant by " incendiary
speeches?"
Sir J. TYRRELL' had said that, to his humble ap-
,
prehension, the character of the speeches of the Hon.
Member for Durham and the Hon. Member for Man-
chester possessed all the characteristics of incendiary
speeches.—(Hear, hear.) If their object had been to
discourage incendiary fires, he must say that speeches
less calculated to attain such All object he had never
heard. It must be that he was a person of weak com-
prehension, for they had heard from high authority that
persons representing the agricultural districts were not
persons of very acute perception, and that must be some
apology for bim.(Cheers and laughter.) The fact
was, this debate was' an adjourned corn-law debate, and
whenever he had entered the House of late he had
heard little else. These unfortunate fires had now •
ceased; and if the speeches were incendiary
speeches, and the fires should break out again,
they would see to whose ability they might attri-
bute them.—(A laugh.) Much had been said of the
want of employment in the manufacturing districts. He
attributed much of that to the character of the opposi-
tion to the corn-laws which had been put forward by,
the late Government, and the low farmers and unin-
formed people had•not hitherto had such confidence in
her Majesty's present Ministers on the subject of the
corn-laws—(Opposition cheers)--as to induce them to
give increased employment. (Renewed Opposition
cheers.) He always read the Money and City article,
and sometimes not without disgust, for whenever any
proposition was brought forward for a railroad, however
miserable the prospect of traffic might be, there • was
plenty of capital to support it. But those capitalists
would not invest one farthing in the cultivation of the
soil. The Hon. Member for Durham had accused him
of a cruel disposition, because he had presented a peti-
tion for a more severe punishment for the crime of incen-
diarism. In the only case inwhich a person advanced in years
had confessed to the crime of incendiarism, he had
stated that be had been induced to set the property on
fire in order to be transported. Now, the Hon. Member
for Durham could not produce an instance in which a
person had committed incendiarism for the purpose of
being hung.—(Loud laughter.) It had been his misfor-
tune to_present a petition praying for increased punish-
ment for the crime of incendiarism, but he did Rot say
that he wished to have that crime punished capitally.
Now, the farmers would, he thought, have greater con-
fidence in the' Government since their recent declaration,
and increased employment of labour would be the conse-
quence, more particularly after they had witnessed the
expiring effort of the Anti-Corn-law League a few
nights since.
The House then divided, when there appeared--
- Foi going into a Committee of Supply 130
For Mr. Gibson's amendment
Majority
Upon entering the gallery we, found the House in
Committee, and

Mr. WYSE moving on the grant of Education (Ire-
land), " That a dutiful address be presented to her Ma-
jesty,. humbly representing to her Majesty the import-
ance of due provision being made for the University edu-
cation of her Roman Catholic subjects of Ireland, espe-
cially of such as are intended for the priesthood, and
the inadequacy of the means and system now existing
for the attainment of such object ; and further praying
her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give
directions, by an enlargement and improvement of exist-
ing arrangements, either by opening the emoluments and
honours as well as studies of the University of Dnblin to
Roman Catholics as well asProtestants, and raising the
College of MaYnooth to the dignity of a theological
faculty of the said university, or by founding and main-
tsining a Roman Catholic university, with equal rank,
endowments, and privileges with those of the University
of Dublin, or by such other
, means as her Majesty in her
wisdom and benevolence May deem fit, adequately to
supply the deficiencies now complained of,
and, as far as
may be; effectually provide for the future moral and in-
tellectual wants of the Roman Catholic inhabitants ;
thus promoting the advancement and happiness,
not of Roman Catholics only, but of all
classes and persuasions of the Irish people."
He would wish to exclude all partisan and political con-
siderations ici the consideration of this question. An
impression had gone abrad, that he (Mr. Wyse) had,
on a previous occasion, endeavoured to disparage the
utility and impbrtance of the Dublin University. No-
thing could be further from his intention. He had been
educated himself there, and entertained the most devoted
affection for the institution. He had no reason to com-
plain of any unjust interference of the Dublin University
with the religion of its pupils. During his time there
he never had observed it, and he. believed that, as far
as their rules and regulations permitted, nothing could
be more tolerant. But, he did not think that the rules
of that University were made in a spirit of toleration,
and that it could be made much more beneficial to the
Catholic community than it was at present.—(Hear,
hear.) Nor were the difficulties in making it so great
as were generally supposed. It was no longer contended
that education was not necessary to- enable men to
govern and obey properly.; and subjects of every
Government had a right to claim from it
' instruction, in at least the elementary princi-
ples of education. The elementary education ' of
the people had engaged successive Governments, and he
must say that they had promoted it by every means in
their power. He. had called_ upon the Government . of
that day to throw open the University to -Catholics, or
to help to establish a Catholic University by in side.
lle did this while he had the honour to be a Member of

thd,4 dovrtrinierit, and.* was there to repeat his solici‘
tation to the present abi.drnoi6nty when new circum-
stances had arisen, and when the case had become more
argent. The first view which naturally presented itself
to their eyes, *as the number of universities in existence
. •
in Irelani. The College of Maynooth had no preten-
sions to be called a university, still lees the academy of
Belfast. He would ask whether any other toy-entry in
Europe was similarly situated to Ireland, with respect
to her universities. Was there any other country where
there was but one university to 8,000,000 of inhabitants.
He looked round him, and directed his attention to Ger-
many. He found that in Germany there was an aggre-
gate of not less than forty universities. He found that in
the smallest States in that country there were large and
flourishing establishments. If he looked to PruSsis, were
there were only twelve millions of inhabitants, he found
that there were not less than six universities. -He looked
to Belgium and to Holland, and he found that the in-
habitants were better provided with respect to the uni-
versities, in proportion to the inhabitants, than in Ger-
many. He found that there were four universities, and
in Belgium four. In Belgium there were two millions and
a half of inhabitants, and in Holland there were four mil-
lions. In Holland there were in the universities 900 students,
and in Belgium, 1,400. In France, too, it was the same—
there were universities all over France. Even in Italy, in
the Pope's doininions, which had been so much vilified,
there were five secondary universities, and two principal
ones. In the small state of Florence there were not
less than ten universities. So in America. From north
to south universities were continually rising up. In a
few days they would be called upon to vote an estimate
for not less than four universities, while that country
did not contain more than two millions of inhabitants,
and in Ireland there was but one university for eight
millions of inhabitants. It was said that this must ne-
cessarily be a Protestant university, and therefore it was
impossible to convert that university to Catholic pur-
poses. There was a misconception on both these points
—misconception with respect to the original character
of the endowment, and misconception as to the
means by which it might be converted. It
need not be converted to Catholic purposes, but it should
be: open to national purposes,. whether those pur-
poses were Protestant or Catholic. The University
of Dublin was generally supposed to have been founded
by Elizabeth. This was partly true, but the foundation
established by Elizabeth was only an atonement
for the loss of the ancient University. The old Uni-
versity of Ireland was founded in the year 1812, by
John Elyard, Archbishop of Dublin, who obtained from
Pope Clement V. a bull for its foundation. After a
considerable time that University fell into disuse, and it
was supplied by other institutions for the learning of the
people. In the year 1475 the University was re-
established in the capital city of the kingdom,
in consequence of a memorial which was addressed to
Pope Pius IV., who issued a bull, authorising the new
foundation. this Catholic university obtained the ap-
probation .of the monarch of the day, as well as of the
holy see. This university continued in existence until
the confiscation of the monasteries, when it fell with
other institutions in Ireland ; and it was not again es-
tablished till the time of Elizabeth. It continued in ex-
istence during the successive times of trouble, and
during that time the preservation of the library and
other valuable parts of the institution was principally
attributed to the Catholic members of that university. In
1703, however, an Act was passed by which Catholics were
excluded from that university, and this Act had re-
mained in force down to the present time. Students en-
tering. ;the university were, by the pres'ent rules, com-
pelled to take the Sacrament, and give other proofs of
their being members of the Protestant persuasion. Now,
the same authority that had established those rules,
could, if it thought fit, repeal them ; and there was no
reason why there should not be added a number of Ca-
tholic fellowships to those now in existence. He would
now proceed to inquire what were the funds and the
meant; within their power of 'extending the benefits to
this institution. He had not been able to get at any
accurate account of the funds of this College ; the re-
turns did not state them, and, therefore, he (Mr
Wyse): had been compelled to get indirectly such in:
formation as he could. The chief funds were derived
from land, not less than 231,000 acres in extent. The
exact value of this land he knew not, but its general
state of cultivation and improvement was, he be-
lieved, about equal to Bishops' lands in that
country. Still they had an immense estate,
the product of which must, even under the most disad-.
vantageous management, be exceedingly great. Next
to the revenue from land was the revenue from fees,
which amounted to 5,6091. 15s. This sum was' from
fees. Here then were the means of extensive usefulness,
had they the power and authority by law to effect it.
They had that power by special Act of Parliament. By
the 14th and 15th of Charles 11., the Lord Lieutenant,
by and with the advice of his Council, had the power to
erect from these funds another college, to be called
King's College, and the endowment of the said college
was to be regulated and governed, not by the old law of
Elizabeth, but by such laws and institutions as her
Majesty might think fit. Therefore they had the power
.to establish another college, and they had moreover the
power to establish new institutions, different from those
which otherwise might prevail, and which could be made
in perfect consonance and harmony with the habits,
manners, and opinions of the present day. Now he
would turn to his second point. They had a Roman
Catholic population to deal with in Ireland. They had
admitted that that population ought to be educated—
that the whole population of this great country ought to
be educated, or why had they for sessions past—why
had they this very session—voted money and - passed
laws for this very purpose?— (Hear, hear.) And they
had declared, too, that all education to be sound should
be religious.—(Tory cheers.) Then, ought they not to
be most careful of the religious education of this
religious educator?—(Cheers.) Ought they not to
afford the very best means in their power to educate the
priests of Ireland that the people of Ireland might be
educated too. And yet all they did was give them May-
nooth—a miserable hovel—and to dole out a few paltry,
pounds with the niggard hand of cold charity.—(Hear.)
He asked Honourable Gentlemen on the other side, set-
ting aside all political •questions, to consider the
subject, and see if something could not be done ,
to remedy the grievances of which the Catholics
complained. But then it was said this could not be
accomplished. He said that it might, either by
annexing Maynootb and the College at Belfast with
the University of Dublin, making the college at Dublin
the proper place for the education of Protestants, May-
nooth for Catholics, and Belfast for the Presbyterians ;
by that means they would link the professors of
the different religions in Christian brotherhood. But
it might be said, would Maynooth agree to this ? or
would Dublin allow a new intruder, or become the
abettor of Presbyterians ? There would be nothing of
the sort ; he could not see why the same course could
not be adopted with respect to the University of Dublin,
and Maynooth, and Belfast, as had been done with re-
spect to Oxford, King's , College, and the London Uni-
versity. He would aggregate the three, giving to each
of them the - power of conferring degrees in everything
except theology. He did not think the college of Belfast
would object to this ; and if, upon consideration, it was
found impossible, there was no other course left open
but to establish a Catholic university in Ireland.—
(Hear, hear.) If they would not give them the first,.
they owed them the second. There were places in Ire-
land where universities might be established ; in Cork
they might lay the foundation of Catholic instruction.
He wished to lay these observations before the Right
Hon. Baronet, knowing that at this particular moment,
it would be impossible to take the opinion of the House:
upon the question, nor indeed did he wish to do so ; he:
would leave it for the present session in the hands of
the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir It PEEL said he believed he was stating what,
would be in conformity with the feeling of the House,'
and of both sides of the House, when he said that no
Member of that House was better entitled to take up
the subject than the Hon. Gentleman. He knew that
no Member of that House had devoted more time and
attention to the subject of the best means of spreading
the advantages of education throughout the country..
He must also say that the Right Honourable Member
had another qualification, besides that of experience—
the high qualification of discussing the subject with that
temper and moderation which. ensured, amidst all the
animosities that divided them, an impartial and favour-
able consideration of the question. He rejoiced, then,
that the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward this mo-
tion, and that he had made his observations in a manper
that precluded him from taking the sense of the House
upon it. The vote they were now discussing was one
for English education, and he presumed the Right• Hon.
Gentleman had made his observations on that vote so as.
to preclude them from coming to a hostile decision, and
he rejoiced that the House was not to be called on to;
give an expression of its opinion. The Right Honourable
Member had alluded to the state of elementary educa-
tion in Ireland. It must be admitted that the
state of this elementary education was satis-
tisfactory. 'Her Majesty's Government had manifested'
a desire to- add to the efficiency of that system. The
vote last year for the national system of education was
50,0001. They proposed in the present year to ask for
an addition of 25,0001., making for the present year the
sum of 75;000/. Within a very short time, there had
been a report laid on the table of the House, signed
by the ,Commissioners, which stated that the number
of schools was 2,721, attended by 319,792 children,
the increase of attendance in the present year over the
last being 35,000. j The report also stated that the un-
founded impressions that prevailed with respect to this
system of education were rapidly disappearing. So
far, then, the state of elementary education in Ireland
was a subject of congratulation. With respect to the
other subject; he had great satisfaction in assuring the
Right Hon. Gentleman that it was one that occupied the
serious consideration of her Majesty's Government. The
Hon. Gentleman must excuse him if, on this occasion'
he purposely foreboro from making any statement on
the subject, not because he was not- prepared to enter
into details; but it would be impossible in the course of
the present session to submit any practical measure on
the subject. It would be infinitely better to avoid al-
together entering into such details, which must be stated
many months before they could be carried into
effect. But he had no hesitation in stating the result
of the consideration that they had given the subject—it
was, that the means of acadeinical education in Ire-
land were very defective.—(Hear, hear.) There were
institutions in the character of universities—Trinity
College, Dublin, the Belfast Institution, and the College
of Maynooth. As far as the education of the laity was
concerned—the academical education of those of more
advanced years than were intended to be included in the
national system of education—when they compared it
with the means of education and the population of other
countries, it was impossible not to see that those means
were comparatively deficient. He did not at all under-
value the effect of the upper classes in Ireland being
educated in the universities of England. It was a bond
-of-`connexion between the- two countries. _ The Hon.
Member had not proposed any plan on the subject;
and this was a reason why he should ab-
stain from expressing an opinion as to a preference.

1844.

.01"'

• fie repeated the demi-,O -4'n ho had ina-
that this
subject had occupied the serious t.u.;22ideration of her
Majesty's Government, and that it was one to 'Which the
attention of his Noble Friend, who was about to assume
the &lief office in Ireland had been directed. At an
early period of next session the Government would com-
mence the measures which it was their intention to adopt;
and if those were unsuccessful, the Right Hon. Gentleman
would have an opportunity of introducing a measure of
his Mill With regard to the College of Maynooth, he
would not hesitate to say that it was not in a satisfac-
tory state.—(Cheers form the Opposition.) If the mo-
ney granted to Maynooth was a violation of principle, it
was equally a violation of principle whether it was small
or great ; and he had no hesitation in saying that the
present amount was inadequate to meet the purposes for
which it was granted. He would *say no more on the
subject but that he was impressed with the conviction
that it was not in a satisfactory state, and that the posi-
tion of that College would be one of the subjects to
which her Majesty's Government would direct their at-
tention.—(Hear, hear.) If he entered into details it
would be most likely to raise objections, and he would
therefore abstain from doing so.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHEIL said they were indebted to his Right
Hon. Friend, not only for an admirable exposition, but
for an excellent speech, characterised by wisdom and by
moderation ; and for being the means of inducing the
Right. Hon. Gentleman to make the important declara-
tions of opinion which he had just announced, and
which he, for one, must praise reluctantly but most sin-
cerely.—(Hear, and a laugh.) For the assurances he
gave he could not but be thankful. Amongst the other
incidents in the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, there
was this excellent one, that he availed himself of this oc-
casion of acknowledging the thanks which his Right
Hon. Friend had earned for his labours in the cause of
education for many years, always useful, but to a great
extent unknown.—(Hear, hear.) He knew that the
Education Commission, introduced by the late Govern-
ment, was founded on the suggestion of his Right Hon.
Friend ; and that the plan which they introduced was
sketched by him. He would only make one suggestion.
His Right Hon. Friend referred to a statute of
Charles the Second. There was a more important
statute than that, viz., the Act of 1793. It was pro-
vided by the 7th eectio2 of the 33d of George 111.,
chap. 21, that Roman Catholics might hold or take de-
grees of any professors, or be =sit-Zs or feliGws of any
college to be hereafter founded, provided that such should
be members of the University of Dublin. The Colft-Ze
of the Holy Trinity was to be exclusively for Protestant
purposes, but in any other colleges, to be hereafter
founded, Protestants and Roman Catholics were to be
equally admissible. Thus one of the great difficulties at-
tending this subject would disappear, and if any person
should say that they were sapping the foundations of the
Church, show him this Act of Parliament, in which was
contained its refutation.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. 2i t. said he intended to speak at some
length on this question, but after the excellent speech of
the Right. Hon. Baronet, he would not detain the House.
He thought that if the Government supported the College
of Maynooth, as it ought to be supported, they would
have sufficient control over the Catholic priesthood.

Lord J. MANNERS said he could not refrain from
expressing his cordial thanks to the Government for
the announcement made that night by the Right Hon.
Baronet. H© took that announcement as an earnest
of a more consistent and a more prosperous line of
policy fur the future, as an earnest of the necessity of
governing Ireland on the only true and sound prin-
ciple on which it could be governed.—(Hear, hear.)
He trusted that the sentiments expressed by the Right
Hon. Baronet would be carried into effect, and that
the result would be as prosperous as he was sanguinely
inclined to think it would be. He thanked the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite for the temperate manner in
which he brought forward his motion. He came down
for, the purpose of supporting the views disclosed in
his motion, and he took that opportunity of again ex-
pressing his cordial thanks to the Government for the
line of policy they indicated that night.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GROGAN said the announcement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman would take Ireland by surprise ; the
people of that country were not prepared for such a
comprehensive measure. In commencing this work he
hoped they would bear in mind that the national system
of education now in existence had not been an apple of
peace, but in them a source of discord.—(Hear, hear.)
Whatever colleges might be established, he hoped the
principles of the Protestant Church would be borne
in mind.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN begged to inquire whe-
ther he had rightly understood the Hon. Member for
Waterford, that if the Government did not found col-
leges for the Roman Catholics, they would be driven to
found them for themselves, in a spirit of hostility to the
Protestant Church ?

Mr. WYSE said nothing could be more remote from
his intention than to say that the Roman Catholics would
establish a college for the purpose of expressing their
hostility to the Protestant body. What he had said was,
that if the Government did not sympathise with them,
and open the University of Dublin, and improve the
College of Maynooth, so as to secure their participation
in the intellectual rewards of the country, they would
be driven to establish a university of their own, which,
though it might be productive of some considerable ad-
vantage, would, as regarded rivalry and competition, be
hostile to the Establishment.

The motion for granting 40,0001. fox education in
Great Britain was then carried.

On the motion that 72,0001. be granted to her Majesty
for education in Ireland,
Colonel VERNER said he had in the last session
moved for a return connected with this grant. He did
not wish to accuse any person connected with the Na-
tional Board of having wilfully made a false return, but
the return which had been made was very incorrect.
There was a school at Newry which had been omitted in
the return. He should not move to have the returns
amended, for they would serve his purpose even in their
present state. He would state a fact IMI hic h had been re-
lated to him, and which would show the state of instruc-
tion in those schools. An inquest had been held in one
of the school-houses connected with the National Board,
and when the witnesses were called, there could not be
found a copy of the Testament either in the school or in
the schoolmaster's house, on which to swear the
witnesses.

Mr. M. MILNES thought that if the proposal of her
Majesty's Government had been received in a better
spirit by the Protestant clergy in Ireland, there would
have been less fear of the recurrence of those evils which
the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman had adverted to than
at present existed.—(Hear, hear.) He rose with great
pleasure to express the entire sympathy which he felt
with everything that had fallen from the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government, and if the pro-
posal of the Right Hon. Gentleman should be carried
out there would not be a laurel upon his brow that
would last longer or brighter.
Mr. PLUMPTRE could not look upon this increase
in the Maynooth grant as one that was called for on
natural grounds. He felt that the Protestants of Ireland
would consider themselves wounded, if not neglected, by
this proposal of her Majesty's Government. The Prime
Minister had been much congratulated by Hon. Gentle-
men opposite, but he felt that he was not justified in fol-
lowing them. He felt that he ought not to attempt to
foster principles, which as a Protestant it was his duty
to abjure; and he was sure that the proposition of the
Government would not be received by the Protestants
of this country in the same spirit with which it had been
received in that House. lie should, therefore, divide
the Committee against it, even though he stood alone in
doing so.
Lord PALMERSTON said he merely rose to concur
in the expressions of satisfaction at the way in which
his Hon. Friend the Member for Waterford (Mr. Wvse)
had brought forward his motion, and also at what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) in
reply to it. He trusted, by next session, that the Right
Hon. Gentleman would be able to arrange a good and
useful measure, and he might rest assured that, from
that side of the House, as well as from other quarters,
he would receive a willing and hearty support.
Mr. LEFROY said, while ho honoured the conduct of
the Gentleman who brought forward this motion.(Mr.
Wyse), as it was consistent with all his former expressed
opinions, he must beg to express his regret at the lan-
guage of the Prime Minister, which, if not inconsistent
with his own language on former occasions, was at all
events greatly at variance with what a large body of his
supporters had a right to expect from him.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROSS heartily rejoiced at the progress education
was making in Ireland. He was also delighted that
from the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet hopes
might now be entertained, that education in Ireland
would be placed on a proper footing.
The question was then put and carried, that 72,0001.
should be granted to her Majesty, to defray the expenses
of education in Ireland.

The sum of 9,0001. was then proposed as the usual grant
to the College of Maynooth.

Sir G. CLERK said he believed there was an inten-
tion to divide on the vote, but he understood it would
not be further discussed.

Lord CLIVE hoped that the Government would ex-
tend a grant to the Church Education Society of Ireland.
Mr. D. BROWNE said, if the Chnrch did not avail
itself of a national system of education, it was not the
fault of the Government ; andit should be remembered
that the Church had 800,000/. a year, to apply to the
spiritual teaching of the people.
Lord C. HAMILTON said the schools of the Church
Society were also open to all who chose to enter them.
He thought the schools were equally entitled to a grant
from the Government.
Sir R. PEEL said the vote for the national schools had
been agreed to, and he apprehended that the vote now
before the House was the usual vote to the Col-
lege of Maynooth. The Government had declined
to give a separate grant to the Church Education So-
ciety, on the ground that if they did, there would soon
be three separate systems of education--the Roman
Catholic, the Established Church, and one for the
Presbyterians, who would soon claim with the others.
This would rather tend to prevent that friendly feeling
and union among the subjects of the Queen differing in
their religious faith that was so much to be desired. The
present system was intended for a joint system, and it
was hoped that the children of Protestants and Roman
Catholics might be able to receive together in early life
the inestimable benefits of education.—(Hear, hear.)
He did hope the hostility which was shown to the sys-
tem at its earlier stages had much abated. Several
clergymen who had formerly opposed.it were now ranked
amongst its supporters, and he believed that very erro-
neous impressions respecting it had been removed.' A
Noble Lord said that 33,000 children were educated in
the Established Church schools. What he (Sir R. Peel)
feared was, that under an exclusive system these chil-
dren might leave such schools. They were not, there-
fore, denying any fair claim of the Establishment to
consideration in this matter, but really only acting from
a desire not to sow what might prove the seed of further
discord. Before he concluded, he must express a hope
that Hon. Members would not draw too sanguine con-
, elusions from what had fallen from him in the earlier

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part of the evening. What he had.-"Said\Ofii- -':` -1
this—that ,her Majesty's Governmerit,weiej ' -5'
that the means of academical educatioVih-IrelAut Itevgt
defective and that they intended to apply themselves'tif
the consideration of that subject in a friendly and kindly
spirit, and in the hope of being able to hold out-=not to
Roman Catholics only, but to the people of Ireland ge-
nerally, a system of academical education in which all
classes might alike participate.—(Hear, hear.) He hadl
said, also, that the Government did not think that the
situation of the College of Maynooth was satisfactory,
and that that part of the subject would not be excluded
from their consideration. _ . . _

Mr. BELLEW said 80,0001. a-year was exclusively ap-
plied to the education of Protestants, besides the means
at the disposal of Trinity College ; so that the Catkoges
were those who had a right to complain.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said that the Right Hon. Baronet
had misapprehended what had fallen from kis Noble
Friend, the Member for Tyrone. lie understood his
Noble Friend to say, not that he wished for a separate
Stae education in connexion with the State, but that as
there was a Church society in Ireland, they ought to get
a portion of the grant.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote
The House then resumed ; the Chairman reported
progress, and asked leave to sit again on Monday at five
o'clock.

Mr. SIIEIL gave notice that, on going into Committee
of Supply on Monday, he would move that a' Select
Committee be appointed to inquire and report how the
French poss2ssions in Africa were acquired, and how far
their extension is consistent with the political and com-
mercial interests of this country.
Sir H. PEEL said he must say that it was the most
extraordinary motion he had ever heard.

CHURCH ENDOWMENT BILL.
The House then went into Committee on the Church
Endowment Bill.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be
received on Monday next.
THREE-AND-A-HALF PER CENTS. DISSENi-
TIENTS BILL.
The House then resolved itself into Committee, fn
order to enable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to pro-
pose a resolution, on which to found a Bill for paying oft
the dissentients from the commutation of the Three-
znd-a-Half per Cents. Stock.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pro-
posing 1)10.
resolution, said that the number of dissen-
tients was oni; to the amount of 113,0002, and that hp
was of opinion, tht:! even that sum would be lessened.
The resolution was tt; reed to.
The House resumed, and Lhe resolution was ordered
to be reported on Monday.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM obtained leave to bring,irt
a Bill for suspending, until the 31st day of December,
1847, the operation of the new arrangement of dio-
ceses, so far as it affects the existing ecclesiastical juris-
dictions, and for obtaining returns from and the in-
spection of the registries of such jurisdiction.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at a Quarter before Two
o'Clock.