The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-24 00:00:00

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the Church
necessary On the part of all Churches there is a disposition to remonsta .a!ll ''''
ofonetrivoill power. You
cegury
bi:-
very strict enactments. In Scotland you ,hvhave lately
found c •se two parties in the Established Chur ' lahltsing
en from civil control and asking for indepe
exemption
ndeiiii =ln
that_ou case you looked with the utmost jealousy at those claims.
I positively refused to accede to their demandof
from civil authority, and•
you permitted a greatpart
Church to sever their' connexion, rather than enter
arrangement. What would your' own Church
Protestant E • piscopalian Church asked for itspresent
and Tights—you being the Established Church—would
permit that Cnurch to have them?
authority of the civil power, the rights
others to presentation, and the title to
Roman Catholic s ys, we claim independenceo exemption
of that
into an y
do? If th e
property
you
Or will you allow the
end of the Crown, and
endowments ? But the
and yet you would give revenues to a Churcha for
ourselves;
a Church, that will not hold herself inn a tilho!ityr to
And this you call equality !—( Loud cheers ) a erfrotance,
,:o not believe that the preference is given to the Protewstlant
Epi.-coyalian Church from any wish to show disrespect—least of
all to to row insult—upon the faith of others. Ido believe that
in this em entry a preference is given to the Protestant Episco-
ban Church from a preference to its doctrines—( Cheers)
from a decided preference to its doctrines—( Cheers)---and I
contend also 1:-Ist that preference implres no insult upon
those who dissent from its doctrines, and that it
is extravagant to say that because I have a pre-
ference for its doctrines, that it involves me in the neces-
sity of persecuting any other Church whatever.—( Loud cheers
from all parts of the House.) Whatever reasons lor you may
have for Fele' ring the Establishment—and there is no necessity
for going into them at this moment—that does not imply that
we have any right whatever to question the right of others to
the fullest freedom in the exercise of their faith. I
turn to the propositions of the lion. Member for Sheffield (Mr.
Ward) I consider those propositions exactly tantamount
to a totol suppression of the Protestant Church in Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) That Hon. Gentleman says—Let us divide the
revenue of this Church—let us give 70,000/. to the Protes-
tant, 70,0001. to the Presbyterians, and 450,0001. to the Roman
Catholics. Why there is no equality in this.—(Cheers.) Se-
verity thousand pounds to the Protestants who submit to our
civil authority, and know no foreign one, and four hundred and
fifty thousand to a Church which prides itself on dividing that
authority, and being independent of all national control
whatever !—( Loud cheers.) Why this is the reverse of
equality—and it is more than that, it is gross injustice.—
( Cheers. ) But a Noble Lord ( Howick) talked by analogy.
Is that Noble Lord prepared to permit those who acknowledge
allegiance in Church matters, not to the Crown of England
but to a foreign spiritual authority—is he, I ask, prepared to
allow the Catholic bishops to take their seats-in the House of
Lords ? If he is 'not, then your principle of analogy is good
for nothing.—(Cheers.) Here is the religion guaranteed by
several Acts of Parliament, by long prescription, by
thousands and thousands of ties of the strongest and
most endearing character, by an alliance with the
State of two hundred and fifty years, and we are told not to
maintain it, because its existence is inconvenient.—(Cheers.)
I ask, what, then, will promote religious peace in Ireland?
Do you suppose that it will promote mutual concord and
peace to say to the Protestants—" Equality of franchises is es-
tablished. You now must give up your Church ?"—(Loud
cheers.) You little know the spirit you would evoke. —(Loud
cheers.) But your equality. your division of revenues, your
analogy, you never attempt to work out so that we may look
upon practical results. Supposing you to get your
proposed 450,000/. of revenue, what will you do with
the churches ?—( Hear, hear.) Do you mean to call
on the Protestants to sacrifice the endowments and give up the
churches too.—(Cheers.) lou must do that, or where is
your analogy. If you give the endowments in the proportions
proposed, you must, by your own rule, give the churches
in the same proportion.—( Hear, hear, and cheers. )
I believe that a proposition more calculated to ensure discord
was never propounded.—( Hear, hear.) I am, therefore, pre-
pared to offer just as decided an objection to that proposal of
the Hon. Gentleman, as I am to oppose the transfer of the
revenues of the Establisument to the Roman Catholic Church.
There is another proposal. It was, not to venture at once to
destroy the Church, but to undermine and sap its foundations.
I think that course just as fatal as any other. I think that,
not ;to destroy life at once, but to infuse some
slow poison into the veins, which will ultimately
cause its destruction, is a course as little likely to promote
either social or religious peace, at either of the others.—
(Cheers.) I therefore come to the conclusion, founding my-
self upon competes, on authority, and on the convictions of my
own mind, that the best course—and the course which I, for
one, as far as my humble powers can effect it, the Government
will pursue—is to maintain in its integrity the Protestant
Church Establishment.—(Loud and continued cheering. )
When I say in its integrity, I do not mean to exclude all
such reforms as may increase the efficiency of the Establish-
ment for the purposes of religion,. but I do mean that I will
neither consent to overthrow the Church, or to establish three
forms of religion in Ireland, or to make a division of
the revenues of the Church between the Protestants,
the Presbyterians, and the Roman Catholics ; nor can
I consent to any of those' smaller proposals, which mean
nothing if they do not mean the ultimate destruction
of the Church. I have therefore stated the grounds
on which I propose to act with respect to the religious esta-
blishments of Ireland ; does that compel me to exclude alto-
gether the consideration of the position of the Roman Catholic
Church in that country ? Am I to consider that Church as
altogether outcast, and to be excluded from any consideration
of regulations that may improve its condition ? Endowments
from the State you absolutely reject. We were assured that
by the voluntary endowments of individuals it might
be provided for without the violation of conscience,
and yet with the concession of a great boon.
The Noble Lord, the Member for Tiverton, threw out this
suggestion last session in a friendly spirit, and we professed our
readiness to consider it. As usual, we are met with a state-
ment that it will not be of the slightest value ; it is rejected
on the authority of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman We
were assured that many Protestants would be disposed, for the
sake of promoting peace, and for the purpose of improving the
condition of the Church and charitable establishments,
to make voluntary endowments to the Catholic. clergy.
The absence of such endowments is alluded to by Mr. Scurry,
in his work on Ireland, as a great evil. ( The Right Ho-
nourable Barocet read the passage, which stated
that the doubts whether such funds would not be appropriated
to Protestant establishments, amounted to an absolute prohi-
bition to their being made.) That absolute prohibition (con-
tinued the Right Hon. Gentleman) we are willing to remove,
accompanied with such securities as would prevent any abuses,
that might arise from the removal. I was certainly surprised
to-night, at hearing, for the first time, the offer met in the
manner it has been. We are, however, still prepared to con-
sider our promise. There only remains the subject of edu-
cation.—( Hear, hear.) I might refer you to the
course we have taken on National Education as
sufficiently indicative of our determination to adopt
those measures we believe conducive to the welfare of Ireland,
even at the risk of offending many of our supporters. We pro-
rose in the present year to make a considerable increase in the
grant for the purpose of national education. I should be very
sorry to refuse to consider the means of still further increasing
the means of furnishing that education. It has been suggested
that instruction in the science of agriculture might be usefully
given in Ireland, and advantageously engrafted on the present
system of education. ( Hear, hear.) I should be sorry
to exclude all considerations of matters of this kind; I
should be sorry to exclude a consideration of the means
of providing the means of an academical education of a higher
class than those educated in the national schools.—( Hear,
hear. But at present we do propose to make a considerably
increased grant for the purposes of national education. I have
now done. I thank the House for the attention with which it
has heard me.—(Cheers). I trust it feels that I have only
trespassed a; such a length on its attention from a sense of the
necessity of discharging a public duty.—(Cheers.) I have
stated our general views of the policy and measures we intend
to adopt. In themselves they may not be immedirte and
effectual remedies for the evils under which Ireland labours ;
but I trust I have said enough so show the spirit
in which the Government is prepared to consider
the questions connected with the legislation of Ireland.
I was reminded by the Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Shrewsbury, in a very able speech, not the less to be admired
because it departed from the general rule of Parliamentary
usage; I was reminded by the Hon. Member, that 1 said that
the question of the state of Ireland was one of far too much im-
portance to be sacrificed and treated as a question of party ex-
pediency. I said, that however Hon. Gentlemen might be
attached to the party of the Government, but that if on the
question of the state of Ireland they might consider larger and
more extensive measure necessary than we were inclined to
promote, I said, and I said with perfect truth, that I
thought this questien one of such paramount importance, that
all questions of party considerations must give way to it, and I
thought that any gentleman giving his vote was bound to give
a free vote—an unfettered vote on this important question. I
would on no question make any sacrifice of principle, but for
the good of Ireland, and for any question or measure tending
to promote her welfare, I would make any personal sacrifice, and
have made sacrifices before now for the purpose of extending
peace to Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) I have for this end made
sacrifices of which the loss of office was the least. I
have suffered the loss of private friends—and the
alienation of personal attachment and private esteem.—
( Cheers.) Why am I not this moment the representative, in-
stead of the rejected candidate of the university of Oxford ?
When we proposed emancipation in 1828, the loss of offieial
power was certain, and I yielded in the hope of promoting
peace in Ireland, but with deep emotion ; and for the same
purpose I sacrificed also that which was the proudest distinction
of my life, the representation of the University of Oxford. I
regret that I must consider the present condition of Ireland as
not being what it ought to be ; but I hope the civil
power in Ireland will continue to maintain itself,
without the aid of the military power. while we
remain in office we will assert the power and dignity of the
law.—(Loud cheers.) We will assert the power of the law
firmly, powerfully, and calmly, although we deprecate the use
of extreme measures, which should only be resorted to in eases
of the most urgent necessity ; but having resorted to them,
and vindicated the insulted dignity of the laws, we are satis-
fied. Our object was to restore peace and tranquillity, and
with them to bring prosperity and happiness to the country. We
have succeeded in restoring friendly relations with France
and all other foreign powers. We have succeeded in improving
the commerce of the country . We have succeeded in
securing a surplus in the revenue over the expenditure.
We have seen the revival of the commercial and manufactur-
ing prosperity; but in the midst of these cheering prospects,
we have had to contend with that baneful " intestinum et
domesticum helium ;" and we cannot, I regret again to say,
express our satisfaction with the state of Ireland, but I trust,
however, that that alternative which party suggests, which
says that we cannot govern Ireland without militery force. I
hope and trust that this suggestion is not well-founded, it is said
that by party influence, peace may be restored ; but I think
that without party influences or patty motives, we
may be able to govern Ireland as she ou"ht to be governed.
I see much cause for congratulation, and hope when we view
the noble applications of science and its wonderful progress, I
shall not be surprised if in my day I seeithe interval between
Dublin and London shortened to within a twelve hours' journey.
The reports of engineers show that the interval between both
cities could be shortened to a journey of fourteen hours.—
( Hear, hear.) My belief is that with the progress of im-
provement it will be still further shortened. (Hear,
hear.) I cannot help thinking that in the upper classes of
society there is a growing disposition to obliterate past animo-
sities.—( Hear, hear.) Ide net now hear debates on the state
of Ireland as compared with what I have heard in debates in
former times without seeing prevailing through the House
a strong disposition to forget differences of creed, and
obliterate distinctions of race.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.)
When anything is said by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side
of the House in kindly disposition, it is met by Hon. Gentle-
men opposite of the Roman Catholic persuasion in a spirit cor-
responding to the spirit in which it is made.—( Hear, hear.)
I do therefore earnestly trust that the influence of public
opinion as well as if the law may control agitation. and may
convince convince those who are concerned in it that it is prejudicial
vemensto.
the best interests of Ireland—that it impedes improvement,
the prroedress of
prevents the application of capital—prevents can be better
those grievances which I am persuaded.
d i interposition and
re-
dressed by the application of individual
the Government can do.
exertion than by anything that
'f peace and tranquility were
I have a firm conviction thato theif British empire would make
restored in Ireland, no par
prosperity.—( Loud cheers.) There
such rapid progress in
are facilities and opportunities for improvement in that
country, which, I believe, would cause it to advance more
rapidly in prosperity than any other portion of the empiro..-.
(Cheers.) I conclude by expressing an earnest hope that this