The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

other demands upon their funds, and at present th y
could not undertake more.—(Hear, hear.)

must also take into account the expenses which an
Ambassador was necessarily expected to incur in the
various countries where the public service required
them to go.—(Hear.) Therefore they stand upon sepa-
rate ground facia al! other branches of the public ear-
vice.—(Hear.) He came next to the official gentlemen
who held seats either in that or the other House
of Parliament, who, he thought, he should be able to
show stood altogether upon grounds apart from the
great body of public servants who held perma-
nent offices in the various departments.—(Hear.)
In the first place, those gentlemen w ere only in and out
of office, and subject to a change by a thousand circum-
stances. But there was this peculiarity attached to their
office, that while other servants of the Government were
only required to work by day, the servants of the
Crown in this and the other House cf Parliament were
called upon to work by night as well as by day. Therefore,
both ou the ground of not having permanent possession
of their office, and of having to work by day and by
night, he did draw a distinct line between those gentle-
men and all the other branches of the public service. If
it was thought that the three branches of the public
service, the army, navy, and ordnance, stood in need of
revision, he wanted to know why it was that larger
amounts of the public expenditure, which he should
bring before their notice, were not also to be subject
to revision and economy, if economy was proper. With
respect to the army, navy, and ordnance, those estimates
had been annually under the revision of Parliament itself.
With respect to judicial offices and official salaries in
this and the other Houses of Parliament, those had been
recently submitted to more recent discussion than the
larger mass to which he should call their attention.
Now, he knew there was a very large number
of gentlemen, not only in this House, but out
of it, who bad laid down the almost categori-
cal opinion that no economy could be practised
and no saving could be made except in the warlike estab-
lishments of the country. Great countenance hail been
given to that opinion, nut only by the Noble Lord the
First Lord of the Treasury, but also by the
late First Lord of the Treasury in his financial state-
went in 1845. He (Mr. Henley) could nut but think
tliere was a deal of error in that state-
ment. When it was considered how large
the expenditure of the country was, which never
came under the review of Parliament at all, he thought
it would be very difficult to show that if that large ex-
penditure were carefully looked into some con-
siderable saving might not be effected. He
found that under the head of Customs, Ex-
cise, Stamps and Taxes, Pest-office, and Crown lands,
according to a financial return for 1848 to 1849, the
amount paid under the head of salaries and wages was
no less than 2,818,000/, Ile found also by the
same return the sum paid in various salaries to Com-
missioners was 271,0001.; the diplomatic salaries were
140,0001. ; and the salaries of officers in courts of
justice amounted to no less than 1,970,924/.;
making altogether the sum of 4,327,0001. odd, not one
farthing of which ever came under the review of Par •
liarnent.—(Hear.) Then in the navy, army, and
ordnance, the return of salaries and wages of
persons who had nothing to do with fighting
men showed a sum of 1,500,0001.; for salaries in the
commissariat 100.000/.• salaries in miscellaneous esti-
mates, 1,131,000/. go that there was of sala-
ries which came under the annual revision of
Parliament a sum of about 2,647,000/. They had in
addnion large sums paid in salaries under the control of
Government, though not paid out of the public Exchequer.
Taking the expenses of all the courts of law, they
amounted to 500,000/. per annum, thus making a total
amount of 7,000,000/. in civil salaries. He wished to
call the attention of the House to the amount of what
W9,S paid to the army, navy, and ordnance. The whole
sum paid in round numbers was 6,500,0001., so that at
least one million more was paid for civil salaries than to
the army, navy, and ordnance; and yet they were
told that it was quite impossible to sate anything out
of the civil expenses, and that the only way was to go
to the warlike expenditure.—(Hear, hear.) That seemed
ti him very much like, to use a sporting phrase, giving
a " false hollow" to distract attention, and turn inquiry
from those items of expenditure where it was possible to
make a good case. A gond deal had been said on this
subject out of doors, and it was thought that the army
was kept up for the benefit of the aristocratic branches
of the community. But how did that stand ? Out of
the army estimates 1,100,0001. went to the officers, and
2,200,000/. to the men. The men were generally taken
from the unskilled labourers of the country. They got
afu I share of the army employment. The Noble Lord
at the head of the Government had held out that it was n A
possible to save more in these estimates than they had
done. Ile had made such and such reductions. He had
saved 100,000/., and when opportuniny offered, he was
going to do a great deal more. Similar language had
been held out by the Right Honourable Baronet at
the heed of the Government in 1845. Both
Prime Ministers very much agreed, and that
compelled him to look a little to the actual figures of the
case as they stood when those statements were
respectively made. The Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) stated, that since 1832, reductions had been
made in the stamps and taxes whereby a saving was
mede of 259,0001. No considerable reduction had been
made since then. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel)
ead, he believed, made the statement in 1845, that it
was their duty, to reduce these establishments so far as
was consistent with the public convenience and utility,
and due regard to economy, and that the revenue should
be collected with the least possible cxpensh. But still,
after that admission, and although the subject bad occu-
pied the attention of every Government, nothing effec-
tive had been done.—(Hear.) He went on to say that
he thought it would be a delusion to suppose that they
could materially reduce the public burdens by diminish-
ing the salaries paid to the civil officers of the state.
But when be (Mr. Henley) had showed that they
amounted to 7,000,000/., he thought he was justified in
differing from him in opinion it, upon inspection, it
should be thought just to reduce them.—(Hear, hear.)
He wished to know how far the Government had realised
savings? That he would show from public accounts. He
came first in order with a statement of the compara-
tive expenditure of the country between the year
1838 and the year 1844. When the Right Honour-
able Baronet (Sir R. Peel) spoke in 1845, he was about
to introduce very considerable modifications in the
tariff, which they were led to suppose would bring
about a very considerable saving. In 1838 the great
branches of the public revenue, the customs, excise,
stamps, and taxes, cost the country, in salaries and
wages, 1,993,5151. He found that in 1844, at a time
when they were told that great reductions had been
made from time to time, and that the tariff had been re-
vised, and various articles struck out of it, yet the cost
of collection had swollen up to 2,034,0001. That was no-
thing like a general reduction. But, further, there
was a very material item of expenditure. He alluded to
superannuation allowances, which should be taken into
account, as well as the actual charge of salaries. In
some cf the departments a great many persons were oc-
casionally discharged, and after a little while more
were taken on; and so far from reducing these al-
lowances in 1844, as compared with 1838, there was an
actual increase. From 228,0001., in the latter year,
they bad swelled up in the former, to 254,000/. They
had not only bad an increase in salaries, but in the su-
perannuation fund, so they bad it on the right and on
the left. But that was nut all; the revenue collected in
1844 was larger than that in 1838, and yet the expense
of collection, which was only five per cent. in the latter
year, increased in 1844 to 51. 4s. 2d. per cent. Theta
was an increased per centavo in the cost of collection in
the excise and stamps. He was not able to make a
comparison in the taxes. Having arrived at the year
1844 he wished to draw a comparison with the present
year, but he did not find that there was a reduction. In
the year 1844 they had the property-tax, which was on
also now, and therefore a comparison might b 3 taken on
all the four great branches of expenditure at this period.
In the debate in 1845 they were promised distinctly by
the First Minister of the Crown that, if they would con-
sent to the repeal of the auction duties the saving in the
collection of the revenue would be very great. The
Right Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), forget-
ting for a moment his usual caution, travelled some-
what out of his course, and said that, with regard to
plate glass, if the duty was taken off there would be a
saving in the cost of collection. The Chancellor of the'
Exchequer said the same also with respect to the auc-
tion duty, but he found that the supposed saving did not
reach the sum indicated. In 1844 the amount of sala-
ries in the four great departments or the revenue was
2,244,000 L, and, with the superannuation allowances, the
amount was 2,288,5801. In 1848-9 the aggregate amount
of salaries and superannuation allowances in the same
departments was 2,294,6481. After allowing certain re-
ductions, the result of the comparison was, that they had
2,205,0001. against 2,218,000/. Therefore, all the mani-
fold savings from joining offices together in some in-
stances, and abolishing them altogether in others was,
that they were now better by 83.4981. than they were
in 1844. Taking one year with another, the whole
expense did not decrease. Looking back twenty
years, when there were nearly double the duties
to collect, and indirect taxation had not been
substituted for direct taxation, there was not that gain
which they had a right to expect. He had dwelt more
upon the collection of the revenue than upon the other
branches of the public expenditure, because it was the
largest, and it was most difficult to collect information
respecting it. He had trespassed, perhaps, at too great
length, upon the patience of the House, but it was not
possible, without the dry detail of figures, to make the
subject understood. The Government had not made out
such a case of continued reduction in these items that
they could show that further reductions could not take
prace.—(Hear, hear.) At all events he had shown that
with regard to the revenue, it could be carefully revised.
With regard to Commissioners of Customs, they should
consider hew far these Commissioners could come under
this revision. Many of these Commissions should be
inquired into. The Commissioners of Lunacy, for in-
stance, received 2,0001. a year salary. Why should they
receive 2,0001. a year, and a county court judge only
1,000/.?—(Hear, hear.) It was impossible to say that
many of these salaries needed no revision, or that
many of them might not be abolished.—(Hear, hear.)
He now came to another branch of the subject.
He rejoiced at the course taken by the Noble Lord
of suggesting inquiries upon such matters. It was ne-
cessary at periods to take a review of the affairs of na-
tions as well as those of individuals. It was beneficial
occasionally to overhaul their affairs. Unless the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) had seen something special in
their circiamstances he would not have adopted that
course. He (Mr. Henley) was not one of those who
attributed the existing depression to recent legislation.
There was certainly extreme depression, but he did not
intend to go into that ; but it was perfectly jast and
legitimate to show that it was mainly owing to two great
causes; first, the great alteration in the value of money;
and, secondly, to the consequent decrease in the rate of
interest, which bad thus the effect of lowering the rate
of profit, and inimulatiag competititim—(Hour, hear.)
1
All these things made it extremely uifficult for rersons
of small capital to make sufficient gain to support
- • e _nu— ....4 thaw% rtarißOS Of

MEMBERS' OATHS.
Mr. WOOD asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Government
to propose any measure, during the present session, with
reference to the oaths now administered to Members on
taking their seats in this House.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had to say fiat it was the
intention of her Majesty's Government to introduce a
measure on that subject during the present session of
Parliament. He would take an opportunity, so soon as
public business admitted, of stating the precise nature of
the measure before it was introduced.
EVICTIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE asked the First Lord of
the Treasury,;whether he was aware that a vast number
of ejectment decrees had been recently served on a
single estate in the county of Galway, whereby several
thousand persons are liable to be in one day forced from
their homes, and their houses levelled ; that in
that and several other counties of Ireland evictions
and house-levellings on a similar wholesale scale
have been for souse time past, and are still going
on; and if the opinion of the law officers of the Crown
had been taken as to whether such depopulations,
whereby large bodies of her Majesty's subjects are at
once deprived of shelter and livelihood, and many (as
may be easily proved) of life, be not ilhgal, and a high
crime and misden: concur by the ancient common law of
the realm?
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no official information
respecting the number of evictions which had taken
place in Ireland, and he saw that the Irish newspapers
which discussed this subject were very much at variance
both as to the extent of the evictions and as to the
persons who carried them into effect. It was certainly
not his intention to submit any case to the law officers
of the Crown on this subject—indeed he thought it
would be exceedingly difficult for the law officers to give
an opinion upon the point mentioned by the Honourable
Member.

NAVY ESTIMATES.
Colonel CHATTERTON EtA;eolie First Lord of the
Admiralty, seeing the sum of 538,6421. charged in
the Navy Estimates for the years 1849-50, under the
head of " Victuals for Seamen and Marines," what
portion of that sum had been paid, or now remains
due, to houses in England, Ireland, and foreign houses
in the provision trade, for the supply of beet and pork
for her Majesty's navy.
Sir F. BARING said it would be difficult and inju-
dicious to apportion the sums among the different houses
in England and Ireland.
DUTY ON WHEAT.
In answer to a questtion from Mr. NEWDEGATE,
who complained of certain inaccuracies in the returns
presented to Parliament of the duty received on the im•
portation of wheat,
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he was sorry to say that
the Hon. Gentleman bad fallen into error in the method
of his calculations. It would require a more detailed
statement than he could at present lily before the House
to explain them, but be would jut mention one instance.
The accounts which the Hon. Gentleman alluded to were
from the sth of January to the sth of February, and
not from the first of the month, as be had stated. Of
those, up to the 31st of January, corn entered at 10s.,
and the remainder at is. duty.
After a short conversation, the matter was allowed to
drop, Mr. LABOUCHERE expressint, a perfect con&
deuce that the Hon. Gentleman would find that the re-

turns were cornet after he had perused the stztemen
which he would lay on the table of the House.

PRE OGAIItV7Ii COURT—aFFICE OF
REGISTRAR.
Sir B. HALL rose to put a question to the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government with reference to
the office of the registrar of the Prerogative Court of
Canterbury, which he said was a sinecure office, the Emo-
luments of which amounted to 12,0001 per annum. The
Archbishop of Canterbury had the power of appointing
to the office, and also of nominating two others in re-
version. Archbishop Moot° had appointed his two
sons, Thomas and Robert Moore, the latter of whom now
held it, having succeeded his brother in 1845.
Along with the registrarship he believed that gentle-
man also held a prebend stall, and two rectories, having
a net income of 14,0001. per annum. Dr. Manners
Sutton, while he was Archbishop, had appointed the
present Viscount Canterbury, his grandson, then twelve
years old, to the reversionary inte:est, while the late Arch-
bishop, Dr. Howley, had declined en conscientious grounds
to make any appointment at all. The questions which
he wished to ask were, whether the present Archbishop
had not filled up the vacant reversionary interest with
the name of the son of the present Bishop of Winchester,
and what the age of that sun was; and, also, whether it
was the intention of the Government, in conformity with
the provisions of an Act passed in 1847, to introduce any
measure for the purpose of revising those appointments?
Lord J. RUSSELL said, as the Right Hon. Baronet
had given notice of his question, he had obtained in-
formation on the subject to which it referred, and he
found that Mr. John Moore es as appointed to the office
by the late Archbishop Moore, and that Robert Moore
was appointed to hold it in reversion after the death of
his brother. It appeared, as the Right Honourable
Baronet had truly stated, that the late Archbishop
Howley did not fill up the vacancy which occurred
during his lifetime.—(Hear. hear.) He (Lord J. Rus-
sell) could not say whether the Archbishop made any
communication to her Majesty's Government on the
subject, but he remembered perfectly well that in
a conversation which he had had vvith (him,
the Archbishop mentioned that an office had
become vacant, to which he did not intend to make an
appointment, but he did not state the nature of the office.
It appeared likewise that the second reversion of
the office had since been given by the present Arch-
bishop to his nephew, Mr. Sumner, who was a young
man now studying at the Temple. (A. laugh.)
With respect to the existing law, as it affected
that appointment, he might state, a Bill was introduced
and passed into a law in 1847, hich provided that all
appointments subsequently made in the Ecclesiastical
Courts, should be taken subject to any regulations which
might afterwards be made by Parliament, either as to
their alteration or abolition.—(Hear, hear.) The
nature of the office in question was at present under-
going inquiry by a Select Committee of the House
and it appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) to be one of
those offices which, when Parliament dealt with the sub-
ject, would either be abolished, or so altered that the
person holding it should perform efficient duties.—
(Hear, bear.) It appeared to him, likewise, that the
enormous salary mentioned by the Right Honourable
Baronet must be abolished, and, by the provisions of
the Act to which he alluded, the person holding the
office in reversion would be entitled to no compensation
whatever.
Sir B. HALL then gave notice that on Thursday next
he would move for certain returns connected with the
officers of the ecclesiastical courts in England and
Wales.
Mr. HORSMAN gave notice that on the same day he
would put a question to the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rus-
sell) respecting the purchase, by the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission, of the Bishop of Gloucester's interest in the
estate of Hasvfield (as we understood).
DRAINAGE BILL/.

In reply to Mr. DISRAELI,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
Bill which he had mentioned in his financial statement
respecting drainage would be laid on the table of the
House in two or three days.
OFFICIAL SALARIES.
Mr. HENLEY then rose to move that an humble ad-
dress be presented to her Mejesty, humbly to request
that she would be graciously pleased to direct that
.a
careful revision be made of the salaries and wages paid
in every department of the public service, with a view
to a just and adequate reduction thereof, due regard being
had to the efficient performance of the several duties.
He believed this subject had not been to ass fullest ex-
tent brought undor revision since the year 1821. This
House then voted an address to the Throne on the then
circumstances, calling for a revision of the salaries paid
to all members of the service, and praying for a re-
duction of the numbers employel. That motion
was afterwards referred, by minutes of the Trea-
sury, to the heads of the various departments, and i
more alterations and reductions took place n conse-
quence. That measure was afterwards followed up by a
Committee of the House, which bad referred to its consi-
deration the salaries paid the officials who held seats
either in that or in the other House of Parliament, which
was somewhat analogous to the Committee which was
appointed a short time ago. Another Committee
appointed in the same year took cognizance of the
various officers who had heretofore been paid out of the
Civil List, and who from that time were thrown upon
the Consolidated Fund. These Committees led to re-
ductions, but not of a great extent., and since that
time there had been no further dealing with the sub-
ject. It would, however, be in the recollection of the
House that about two years ago the present Government
thought it right to refer the expenditure of the two
great branches of the public sery to the consideration
of a Committee of this House, and ice
he thought that of
itself was a pretty strong indication that there was some-
thing special in the times to induce the Government of the
country to take so very unusual a course. It chanced to
him to have the honour of sitting on one of those Com-
mittees, but while the report of the Committee on the
army estimates recommended reductions in the heads of
departments, that of the Navy Committee was altogether
silent on the subject; that brought them down
to what took place the other day, when the
Noble Lord at the head of the Gcvern-
meat brought forward a motion which was carried
to refer certain limited branches of the service to a
Select Committee. With what view the Noble Lord
made that motion he did not know. He did not know
whether the Noble Lord thought any increase or any
reduction were necessary, because the Noble Lord did
not tell them ; but he could hardly suppose that the
Noble Lord had any other object but a reduction
in view. But, however that might be, ho would state
shortly to the House the branches of the public service
which the Noble Lord selected in the consideration of
this Committee. They were first the offices held by
gentlemen who held seats either in that, or the other
House of Parliament; then there was the diplomatic
corps ; and, lastly, there where what were
called judicial offices. Now, he was prepared to show
that each of these separate branches stand upon special
grounds, which some other branches (lid not. He would
take first in order the judicial salaries. Now
since reference must be had to the remunera-
tion received by eminent men practising in
the same profession of equal dignity, that
was an important element which must enter into
the consideration of the question of whet ought to be
paid to au eminent adv,scate on undertaking a
judicial office, and therefore he maintained that
this branch of the public service stood upon grounds
of its own.—(Bear, hear.) He now came to the diplo-
matic service. Ot course a separate element which must
cuter into the consideration of that question must be
- . s —an eal ability from.

necessity rendering any fixed salary infinitely ; ment, and also what had been done by the Government
more valuable than it was twenty years ago, this to a ldch ho belonged. Reduction, in fact, had been
applied equally to salaries as well as to income derived goiee on from year to year, and from day to day, for
from other sources. Now, in addition to this, he should a long period, and a gradual revision was constantly
not bo considered to trench upon his privilege when he in process. In 1835 a return was moved for by his
said that the legislation of the last three or four years lion. end Gallant Relative the Member for Lincoln—
had been carried on so as to secure the present low prices (Laughter)---and by that return the House would
in every article of consumption. When the interest of rem that while the official salaries in 1815 amounted
the public debt increased so much for the last twenty to 3,700,0004,in 1835 they amounted only to 2,700,0001.0
years, he considered that the income must have increased or 1,000,000/. less in twenty years. And if they had
in proportion to enable the Government to pay such increased in amount since then, it was because addi-
high salaries to so great a number of officials as were at tienal labour had been thrown upon the public depart-
present employed. He would not dwell any further on mentt, and because various duties were now performed
this point, but refer to the case of emigration, which was by the central government which had previously been
well worthy the consideration of the House, as it tended performed by the several local authorities of the country-
to show that while the officials of Government were fat- Referring to the Treasury, Hon. Gentlemen would see
teniag on the income of the country, the people were that this department, and those offices which were shad
forced to seek for sustenance in a foreign land, posed to be the favourite patronage of the Ministers, had
and that, naturally, much against their inch- undergone great reduction. Excluding the lowest class
nation ; and be would ask to what was that of clerks (supernumeraries and others), it appeared that
attributable ? The only answer that he would whereas in 1821 the duties were discharged by 38 per-
venture to give was, to compare the number of enai- sons, with an aggregate salary of 42,9601, in 1849 they
grants in the years 1843 and 1848. In the former year were discharged by 29 persons, with an aggregate salary
there were only 26,000, but in the latter there were no of only 24,6301, being a reduction of 1800/. and UP-
less than 248,000. Again, he would call the attention wards in 30 years. Again, in 1821, there were three
of the House to the state of crime and the Dumber of separate boards of customs for the three kingdoms, with
criminals in the years 1831 and 1848. In 1831 there 21 Commissioners in all, who received tin aggregate saw
were only 19,601; in the latter year, 30,349. While he ]cry of 29,5001. In 1849 there were, however, only
.eight
admitted that the population had much increased he Commissioners for the united empire, and their eatariee.
could not at the same time admit that there wes city amounted but to 10,900/. In a few months there wood
proportion between the increase of population and tin' be another Commissioner reduced: this was a reduction:
increase of criminals. This is also a feature worthy the of considerably more than half. Again, in this save's'
consideration of the House, and worthy of being traced boards of inland revenue, in 1821 there were 41 Com
te its proper source. He would next direct their att n- miseioners, who were paid salaries equal to 42,5311;
tion to the (Bch' value of imports and exports, for in at present there were only eight, whose salaries
1828 the official value of exports amounted to only amounted to 11,200/., and one of that number would
22 000,000/., and of imports to 36,000,0001.; whereas in also be shortly reduced. Altogether 75 superior apt°
1848 the exports amounted to 132,000,0001., and the int- pointmente had be en reduced, with salaries amounting r
ports to only 52,000,000/. This showed that the pro- 60,2801. a year, since 1821, by each succeeding Govern-
duce of the country is fast failing, and that there is went since that period. Even in the last two years there
something requisite to be done by a Government that eat leen a reduction in the salaries cf the Treasury
derives so great an income from the revenue accruing quivalent to 5,0001. a year—from 1847 to 1849. It was
from such an increase of revenue; and it also affords not, therefore, quite fair of the Hon. Gentleman to ien-
sufficient grounds for considering why so many needle- plicate the Government as unmindful of that economy
women, tailors, shoemakers, and other tradesmen are which they professed, and which the House was anxious
depressed and penniless, for the value of their work in to carry out, or in that respect at all neglectful of their
1831, 1843, and 1844 was ten times more than in 1848. duty. His (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) Noble
When the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) some time Friend had stated the amount of reduction since 1833
since stated that there were several articles that ob- by the various consolidations of offices that had taken&
tained a higher price at present than in any of those place. The number of persons reduced was 2,000, and.
years alluded to, he should say in reply that they were she annual expense saved was over a quarter of a mil
,
not more than four in number, whereas there were nu- lion. At this moment the Paymaster of the Treasury
menus others that suffered materially. He would call in old public servant, Sir A. Spearman, and the Secre-
the attention of the House to those home articles that tary cf the Treasury, were engaged, as they have been
were so much depreciated. The articles he (Mr. Henley) for some time past, in revising salaries. The first report
alluded to on which a reduction was mule in 1848.9 they made recommended reductions to the extent of
were—first, bread, on which 17 per cent. was lost; next 65,000/ a year in the cost of the customs revenue; and
groceries, on which was lost 25 per cent.; cotton, 30 per their second, which was not ea adopted, but which
cent.; wool, 10 per cent.; beer, 20 per cent.; shoes, 7 per would no doubt be carried into effeco recommended
cent.; together with several other articles which he could further reduction of 7,0001. per annum. Therefore,
enumerate hut that he did not wish to trespass too much on when the Hon. Gentleman said that in some in—
the attention cf the House. He therefore could not agree stances the customs establishment was not reduced ia•
with the Noble Lord, for the appreciation of the one or conformity with the reduction that had taken place
two
two articles that he (Lord J. Russell) had previous]) the customs duties on various articles, it was fitting Igo
referred to were of a recent period. His principal ob. should know that certain portions of this establishment'.
ject in making that motion was to show that there was were obliged to be kept up for the accommodation of.
a general cry throughout the country for more work, the import and export of goads to and from this country'
sad as one of the trustees of the public he would never He was sorry to trouble the House with what bad beet e
be found to flinch from his duty, particularly as it was tone in various departments, but as the Hon. Gentle
a matter of very great importance in a commercial point tnan appeared to have lost sight of the reductions the t
of view, and should his opinion be erroneous he had only had occurred, he would briefly enumerate some of then a
to console himself that it was not from design, but in the In the Pay-office the offices of paymaster of the cite
discharge of a sacred duty that he erred. He hoped he icrvice end the exchequer-bill audit had been con.
would not he understood to make any unfair or unjust fated under one head, and the saving in these vibe es
allusion to the men at present in authority—for them alone; was 16,000/. yearly. The Honourable Dilecaher
personally he felt bound to say that he held the highest had ref reed to she expenses of collection, and the seilaele3
respect—but hoped they would consider that as the of those employed, in relation to the revenue. Be had
times cbanged so ought Governments. Ho knew that already stated that the diminution of revenue mad cent
there were many applications from boards of guardians of collection are nut always in proportion, bewauee,
in various localities for the reduction of the expenses of in particular cases, it was found necessary to lit ep
the country, and should this question be staved off, and up establishments for the protection of the lenient is,
that any oepression should come on the people, he felt It did not, therefore, follow that a reduction of sever al°
assured that Governmenment should adopt some plan enabled Government always to reduce the charge of CA'
similar to his for the relief and satisfaction of the public. lectior. Government, however, had made consider dill
These were his reasons for bringing the question before reductions during the last two years, from the stb. 0.1
the notice of the House, and he had to thank them for January, 1848, to the sth of January, 1850, as Ti• )0/P
their kind indulgence.
be proved by a comparison with the last of the two ?re-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said her rious years:—
'Majesty's Government had shown that they were not at In the year 1847, the charge for collecting the mist• arolg
all indisposed to the ostensible object of the Hon. Gen- was ... £5 19 6 per c aft'
tleman's motion; but, at the same time, they could not In 1849 it was ... 515 5f ~
conceive the motive of the Hon. Gentleman for bringing The charge for the excise was, in 1847 6 711 ~
it forward at that moment. If the Government had In 1849 it Wl3 ..• ••• 513 6 ~
been negligent in revising the public establishments, or For the stamps, in 1847, it was ... 2 1 5 ,s
if they and those who preceded them had not exercised In 1849 it was •... 2 0 7dee ,s
economy in point of reduction of expense year after For taxes, in 1847, it was 3 6
year, his Noble Friend and he would not be indisposed In 1849 it was ... ... 3 5 0 ,
almost to acquiesce in the motion of tho Hon. Gentle- there was no very material variation in the cost of
e'er
man; but when they felt that this was a course that had lecting the stamps and taxes, but in the other brancbel
been pursued by them for a long period, and also b 3 of revenue the reduction had been considerable. In dbrc
their predecessors in office, that large reductions had xcise, however, it amounted to about 14s. per cent. 11:1
been effected, as was stated on another occasion by hie the course of the last two years, and Hun. GentleraeP
Noble Friend, he could not see that the motion had any who knew how to calculate this reduction per col°. •
other object than to express a censure which the Go- would know that it would in the aggregate amount CO .1
vernment felt they did not deserve, or to create confusion very large sum indeed. These reductions, as he had Set'
in the case, which the Government could not coun. before, bad also been effected in the lace of a consider
teuance. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) able increase of business; for it was well known to 01°2 ea
hardly knew what the Hon. Gentleman meant who paid attention to the subject that a great increar-
by his motion. He had gone into a number and pressure of business had occurred in all those do°.
of topics, altogether unconnected with the ques- partntents. From the highest official to the lowest civil':
tion et issue ; and when he (the Chancellor of a great amount of additional work had to be perfornie°'
the Exchequer) had come down to answer the Hon. them again, it was difficult to say what the pre°
Gentleman on the subject of salaries, he was compelled amount of salary ought to be; but looking to the mils"
to answer also the Hon. Gentleman on the subject cf cies paid by other great establishments in the CI:
prices, though he had no notice to enable him to pre- an estimate might be made to show whether t_ei
pare for so doing. The Hon. Gentleman had taken as salaries paid by Government were too high, comps-
a test the price of haberdashery, and by that test had with the salaries received by persons in private eSti):
endeavoured to prove his case. But it should be borne elishineets. If a scale of private salaries were furnished'
in mind that a great proportion of that article which was the House would then see whether those establish
originally prepared by hand, was now prepared be meats were carried on at a less expense than the
Gu;
machinery, in Glasgow and other places. When, there- vernment establishments. He believed it would be folio'
fore, the Hon. Gentleman argued on that hypothesir, ht that quite the contrary was the fact. He found the el;
was utterly and entirely mistaken in hls premises, and: dense of the salaries of all descriptions paid by the the
also in his conclusions. The Hon. Gentleman had coin- of England amounted to 211,000/. a year. Now
plained of the distress of that large class of poor persons whole of the salaries and wages paid for the er
living by needlework, and stated that the tailors said penses of the Treasury, the Home-office, the Foreigti:
their throats were cut by their wives and children; office, the Colonial-office, the Privy Con°°,e'dt
and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) learned frou affice, Office of the Board of Trade, and S'et,
these persons that the great cause of the depression was Education Department, amounted together to 238•00",,t
the low price for making soldiers' clothes. But if All the great offices of the country only °P,`.O
the proposition of the Honourable Gentleman was in wages and salaries 20,000/. per annum more-than
adopted, there would be a still further depression -.um paid by the Bank of England. No one after tht;
in that respect, and those who lived by making these could say that the expense of those public departure°,,
articles would be much worse off than before.—(Cries of was greater by comparison than the expense of privPt
" Oh, oh.") Their distress in fact would be agera- establishments. The highest salaries in Governor 0$
vated rather than lessened by its adoption. The Hon. ,ffices varied from 2 000/. to 2,500/, and there were
Gentleman seemed to blame his (the Chancellor of the more than six or eight at that scale,—exclusive,
Exchequer's) Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) for stating ,ourse, of solicitors, who were paid in proportion K.,
that many items in the expenditure of clerks with 120/. earnings of other professionals of their Web,
a year under the Government had not diminished of fake the East India Company, an establishments 'Ohio.
late years, but how far was the lion. Gentleman justi- more nearly than any other approached the °t-et,
fled in so doing? It was perfectly true that the price of racter of a Government establishment. The secretn'l
many articles that necessarily entered into the consump- of the India Company had a salary of 2,400 L, Iv° of
tion of a person of that salary had not only not dimi- house; this was higher than the highest paid officer the
nished, but had actually increased. Potatoes, fur iu the Government. Several officers bad 2,000/. al°oll
stance, and other matters. He (the Chancellor of the several others 1,500/., and others had 1,0001 a Ye3r;hen
Exchequer) held in his hand a return of the expendi• of which, in proportion to the duties, were higher Vile
ture of the Marylebone Workhouse in 1849, as corn- the rate paid in the Government establishments.
pared with that of 1843, and he found by that return secretaries of many of the dock companies and raiirdieg
that the average cost of supporting each pauper had companies had very large salaries, some excee
rive
considerably increased, including of course food, fuel, 2,000/. a year. The secretary of the St.
liarhP,, tee
lighting, medical attendance, &c. In 1843 the average Dock Company had 2,000/. a year and a house to 11!:0 eg
rate for each individual in that establishment was 4s. and several railroad secretaries had salaries 11°,11'heete
&id. per week; in 1849 it was 55. 04d. In 1849 the high. Since he had been in the House a paper hattiwitwe
Price of wheat was higher than in 1843. The other placed in his hand, showing the expenses of a large
'O,
principal items of expenditure stood as follows: don establishment—that of a brewer. In 1846 Ole ogle
1843. 1849. - penses for salaries and wages were 9,6051., and tiii)rrea
F10ur..... 345. 101. per sack
Potatoes. 965. Od. per ton lo7s. 6d. —there were the same number of persons employ de vet°
Oatmeal.. 1 ls. Od. per cwt 1 is. 4td. as at the above period—and their expense in 18'0.100'
Therefore, in his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) 10,049 L, showing an actual increase for the same 013,70 r,
opinion, his Noble Friend was fully justified in stating of persons, notwithstanding the cheapness of
lloPliees'
that upon many of the items that compose the necessa- titles of necessity, of 1,3441. per annum. Two addit 491.
ries of life there had been no reduction, while the in- persons had been taken on, whose salaries were tt
crease of what was called the green-grocer's bill more more than the sum he had named. This was the resllow
than compensated for any reduction that had taken place be gathered from a reference to a private eats/100,
in other items of inevitable expenditure. Ile Oh( meet, the proprietors of which had every tadnetipierit
Chancellor of the Exchequer) stood in a very painful to get their work well done on the most econ°oooe
and unpleasant position in this matter, for he was con- terms. In the instance he had quoted it had been o
stantly appealed to, by the very persons who would tell necessary not to make reductions, but to lucre° hied'
him that salaries should be reduced, respecting the hard- pay of those to whom the practical portion of the'eseale
ship of individual cases of clerks in the employ of Go- ness was entrusted. He would now read to the
d'ee
vernment, and those who reproached him most ,in that the consequences which had followed an attempt°e th°
House for not reducing them were those who complained that which the Hon. Member sought to enforce
)1°
most strongly of these cases of hardship at his office. House, or rather to force upon the Government:o
It was no pleasant thing to carry into effect motions such would read a short extract from the report of °tiler
as that of the Hon. Gentleman, and the pain that he rectors of the Great Western Railway Come °i9 °II
felt in doing so was not, he could assure the House, at trative of the consequences that had followed fritee °
all lessened by the imputations of cruelty which were attempt to reduce the salaries of their servants
be Geo;
freely indulged in on those occasions. The principle, point that was considered fair and just. The 11°P;t
however, upon which the Goverment proceeded,was not demean opposite cheered, but he WAS not aware
th dl'
'sr o
as laid down by the Honourable Gentleman. way companies were more unlikely to reduce vas
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed ture than other parties; on the contrary, he /Ire ace
that a general reduction such as that Hon. much inclined to think that railway companies wt
tb
Gentleman proposed would not be wise or just. He tuated by as lively a sense of their own interes"repor;
believed, on the contrary, that to exact a greater amount Hon. Gentleman himself could possibly be. Till Oche,
of labour for existing payments, and to reduce future tip- was dated April, 1850; it stated—" It is wit to Son'
pointments, was a mode far more conducive to the ad- regret the board feels bound by their dull esr„,
vantage of the public service, as well as a far wiser proprietors to represent that the 511°,f „0, 010
and more just economy. But the Government had not rienco of a few months has realised tte"ed Pit
been negligent in the matter of reduction of salaries prehensions. Since the reduction was nette"e o'oo4
either—not of existing salaries, because they believed whole establishment has become unsettled; teut:To bete
that would be unjust—but in the case of appointments and principal clerks, with few exceptions, beets
made upon the relinquishment of situations—uniformly seeking other employment; some valuable sereetei Pep,
giving the successor to such situation less than his pre- quitted, and others are about to leave the s
erleiccles" eff,
decessor, and imposing upon him more duties. That was has the effect of the reduction been confined °eel 000_0
true economy. To reduce salaries when greater exer- to those whose salaries were reduced; for `
seveh; Pre°ol'
tions were required of persons long in office under Go- in despair of improving their position in s _eve ceetj
vernment, would be, in his opinion, to act cruelly towards service, have also resigned, to obtain more ltlettoe
those parties. The Government was bound to stand by ployment elsewhere. The directors have eotelPlies
them under such circumstances, and to protect them by practical proof that serious prejudice to tn7e toot of
all the means in their power. The Honourable Gentle- has arisen, and they apprehend that still morseureaceer
man seemed to have omitted all reference to those higher sue, unless steps be now taken to give some °which ;o,
salaries which formed the subject before the Committee an established scale of salary and pay uP°P, of sertielf
appointed by his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) , officers and servants can rely. If lengtuee esseo,4o
Noble Friend; therefore be (the Chancellor of the Ex- with great experience and proved ability,wail
to
chequer) should say nothing about it. In regard to the in managing affairs towards the prosperityinOt
other salaries, he acquiesced, as did also his Noble of any important undertaking, success *a. mete I!, oes
Friend, in the principle of the amendment of the Hon. be attained by the discouragement oeftulcutioo or de'
Member for Buckinghamshire, that it was the duty of whom so much depends, nor can a r be'
the Government, on their own responsibility, to introduce lanes be expected to counteract Pew., tee le
the measures that might be necessary for effecting every pression in times of difficulty.”—
reduction tn the national establishments, consistent with lieved the statement of the directors of
c.linerdl„, ge tor I
the efficient discharge of the public service; but perfectly true, and he was further satisfi
ho believed that it would not be consistent with measure of reduction, such as that of tttarcieuee,t. ;fa
the efficient discharge of the public service to reduce, opposite, was likely to be adopted
by
would P°
generally, as the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Ox- great discouragement to public servants be
re_o,
ford proposed, the salaries of all public servants. He take place, but that valuable servants
did not say that on making any new app it away from their situations, and thus great Qervlu
alear,th. e r_liwayoeft.si
would be unjust to make them It a reduced rate of sa- able injury would be inflicted on
to °°` the b ref
lary; but he did think it would be cruel to persons who (Hear.) He only wished to refer
,3„ ed ,e 0
had been. thirty or forty years in the public service to because Hon. Gentlemen sometimes t
lace 43f 131 sees
tee p u2caltedi-or itiroo;
turn round upon them and reduce them now. A great increase of salaries which had taken p Act ha
.cossi
deal was said about reduction; but how would that prin- as compared with times gone by-
eAI-_, Salaret,..l!
cipla apply to the lowest class of clerks in the public brought in which was in the natvB_ o,tand the
souitiese
offices? Those persons were not paid io well even as pensation Act. This was in 1
menial servants. Was the House of Commons prepared question would afford means of con
5.
_„tr dee
to be unmindful of the service of this excel and able then with these which persons holding enottiete aselortgiele
class of public servants? With regard to a reduction of now urjying. s, too, dto bY the' of 11 ed
eipenses, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) woold produced on the currency refeteraenk °t;asting the
theicroi
just point out what had been done in past years by the G. eetlemau, and before the 1.3 ,e_reciated cv
'lovernment which bad preceded the present Govern- when payments were wade in P
Taiwas beforertehstertioiozeo,
11