The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-26 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS. March 25.

CRIMINAL RETURNS.
Mr. STANFORD wished to ask the Secretary Of
State for the Home Department whether instructions
to the statistical department of the Board of Trade
might not be given so as to insure more complete
trim '
nal returns for the United Kingdom.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE admitted that the returns did
not contain all the information the public ought to ha/
on the subject, but the question of extending the returns
was now under consideration.

TIIE GOLD COAST.
Mr. COBDEN understood that the extension of born
tish territories on the Gold Coast of Africa had been
recaltiy negi tinted, and ho wished to know whether so
opportunity woull be afforded the House of discussitig
the policy of that extension of territory.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to 011 Y t-

a vote would be taken to complete the purchase, and
then a discussion might he taken on its policy.
Mr. COBI)EN gave notice that, he should take the
sense of the House after Easter as to the policy of pur-
chasing the forts at al'.
DUCHIES OF CORNWALL AND LANCASTER.
Mr. TR ELAWN Y rose to move for a Committee to
inquire to whet extent the public are enti.led to claim
an interest, present or prospective, in the
management of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lan-
caster, with respect to which returns are annually
made to this House, and, with regard to the Duchy
of Cornwall in particular, to inquire where
its accumulations are invested; who is the heir of per-
sonal estate to the Prince of Wales; whether Duchy
dues from mines are reserved in minerals or money, and
whether they are rated to the poor; whether mines are
directly worked by the Duchy officers ; what
number of claims to estates have been made
and not sustained during the last six years; whether
there is any good reason for the direct exception of
certain kinds of property in the Duchy Act of 1844
(such as royalties, franchises, and estuaries), from the sta-
tutory provision for the quiet of titles, now applied to
Crown property, to private property, and most descrip-
tions of Duchy property; and, lastly, whether the manage-
ment of the Duchy estate has been satisfactory as
regards the public, ?air es regards its own tenants, or pro-
ductive of improvement in the state of the rural popula-
tion? The Hon. Gentleman, who was very imperfectly
beard in the gallery, owing to the conversation going on
in the House, and the low tone in which he spoke. was
understood to disclaim all idea of interfering with the
prerogatives of the Crown. He then pointed cut the
mismanagement that existed in the revenues, and the
I envy debts entailed upon the Duchy of Cornwall by a
former Prince of Wales, and urged upon the House the
necessity of adopting some measure to prevent a recur-
rence of these abuses. The House was possibly not
aware that there were certain tin dues levied, from
which a large revenue was derived, amounting in eight
years to the sum of 124,0001. By the Ist and 2nd Viet..
arrangements were made to compensate the Duchy for
giving them up. The don. Gentleman also referred to
the accounts of the Duchy of Lancaster, in which he
observed that there were very large sums regarding the
expenditure of which no explanation whatever was given.
He also referred to the evidence of Mr. Anderson, who
had been sent by the Treasury to inquire into the ex-
penditure of the Duchy, in support of his argument, and
complained that the Duchy lead undertaken to work a
mine which they were compelled to abandon at the end
of two years, after having lost 20,0001. by it. Ho hoped
the House would give him the Committee which he
asked, as there were a great many matters connected
with the subject which it concerned the public to be
fully acquainted with, and which called for investigation.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving for the appoint-
ment of a Committee.
This motion having been seconded,
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that if the
House would but reflect a little upon the circumstances
of the case, they would see no ground whatever for
granting any such inquiry as had been demanded. The
grounds upon which the motion was made were twofold
—first, that there was mismanagement of the property;
and, secondly, that there were great acts of oppression
committed by those who had the management of the
property. It was manifest that the House could have
no right to inquire into the management of any pro-
perty unless it was one of a public character. This,
however, was private property. It was vested in the
Crown until there was an heir-apparent, when it became
his sole and exclusive property. The heir-appal eat was
born Duke of Cornwall, not created so; and he had from
the time of his birth the absolute power of disposing of
the revenues of the Ducby until he became Sovereign of
the kingdom. Ile (the Solicitor-Gen'eral) could not,
therefore, see any difference between this and any
other private property, except that it was held by
a person of the most exalted rank in the country.
It was true that, by an Act passed in the reign of
the present Sovereign, it was provided that the accounts
of the Duchy should be annually submitted to the Com-
missioners of the Treasury. But the obvious reason of
that provision was to insure the proper management of
the property for the benefit of the heir. The Honourable
Member said that when the Prince of Wales came of
age be would be entitled to ask that House fur an allow-
ance from the public treasury, and that, therefore, the
House had a right to make these inquiries. He (the
Solicitor General) denied that they could have any such
right. Returns were made every year, showing how
the property was managed; and there were no grounds
for supposing that there was any such mismanagement
as had been alleged. By the statement before hits it
appeared that there was a great reduction made in the
salaries and charges connected with this property since
the accession of her Majesty to the throne. The average
expenses for the six years before were as follow:
For salaries and remuneration of public officers and
servants, 8,6171, whereas this item was now re-
duced to 2,500/. The solicitors charges averaged
4,1021. For the year 1849 the law expenses were only 271.
The charge for holding courts, 2631. 18s. There was
nothing now paid under this head. A saving was thus
effected amounting to 10,6721. There was, no doubt, an
increase in one item. in consequence of pay ing annuities
to superannuated officers, which amounted to 2,1961.
These allowances in 1836 were 840/4 but iu 1849 they
amounted to 2,196/. The property was now managed
by a council, who carried on the affairs of the Duchy
with great care and attention, without fee or reward.
The Chancellor of the Duchy, who formerly received
500/., was now represented by Mr. Pemb-rtou Leigh
without any salary. The Surveyor-General, who
fir-
merly received 1,6001 a year, was now only paid 1,0001.
During the time of William IV. a considerable amount
of money was raised by granting a number of new lives
in the leases, and a diminution of the property wee pro-
duced in consequence, but it had increased progressively
of late years. From the year 1750, from 9,0001. and
upwards, it had increased to 19,0001 a year up to the time
of George IV. At the time of William IV. it amounted
to 32,000/. a year, and in the time of the Prince of
Wales it averaged 22,000/. a year. He admitted that
even though a property be of a private character, yet if
it be managed in such a manner as to give rise to acts
of cruelty or oppression, it might farm a proper subject
of inquiry. But totee Hon. Member called fto specify or an inquiry
on this ground, ought to be
those acts of oppression complained of. It was no use
making general complaints as to the non-renewal of
leases after the investment of much capital upon the
property, for that was the case with every other lease-
hold property. It was not the duty of this House to
inquire into any such complaints against a landlord
who chose to exercise his undisputed right of not re-
newing a tenant's lease. So long as the law empowered
him to act so, eo long could he exercise the right with-
out the interference of that House. He submitted that
this Committee ought not to be granted, because this
was strictly private property, and managed for a private
individual, although of the most exalted position, and for
the other reasons he bad stayed.
Mr. BOUVERIE thought that if there be any pro-
rty that called for public investigation it was the
DDuchy of Cornwall. This was a property created by
Act of Parliament, dealt with by Act of Parliament,
and placed under the management of trustees
appointed by Act of Parliament. As the time of the
establishment of Queen Anne's civil list it was
expressly assigned to the Sovereign for the mainte-
nance of the dignity and honour of the Crown. The
public bad a most direct interest in the question. If it
pleased God that the heir-apparent should come to man's
estate, this House would be called upon to make provi-
sion fir the maintenance of his dignity. This was an
appanage of the Prince of Wales, given to him by Act
ot Parliament; and it might so happen that, in the course
of years, the property might so accumulate as to render
it altogether unnecessary for Parliament to make any
public provision for him. So much for the right of the
House of Commons to inquire into the Duchy of Corn-
wall. The office of the ducby a as a pubic office—it
was in Somerset House, and paid no rent. But the Acts
of Parliament dealing with the duchy were not private
Bills, but public Acts dealing with public property. It
therefore, not at all to be compared with private
property, nor to be treated as private property. What
was the difference of the right of Parliament to deal
with the inheritance of the Crown lands and the Duchy
of Cornwall?—(Hear, hear.) He had in his h4nd the
report of the annual accounts laid before Parliament
respecting the duchy; and from these it appeared to
him that the trustees had been doing that which they
had no legel right to do. On the face of the account
there had transactions taken place not justifie.l by Act
of Parliament, and these he said afforded grounds for
inquiry by the House of Commons. In eight years
there was an income of 354,0001., and the ex pendit ure in
salaries, management, and law expense., was 93,000/.
As to the Duchy of Lancaster, the accounts were more
unsati,fectory than the Duchy of Cornwall; and it was
extraordinary to find Vie Whigs, the descendants of
Burke and Fox, contending that Parliament had not a
right to inquire into them and deal with them. Ho re-
ferred to the opinion of Mr. Fox, showing that if Par-
liament were denied that right it would amount to a
dissolution of the Government. By the present system
12,000/. only came to her Majesty out of an income of
32,000/. Under these circumstances he felt bound to
support the motion of his lion. Friend.
Mr. P. WOOD said the consideration for them was,
whether the House was at that moment justified in en•
t'ring into an inquiry as to properties, one of which was
settled as the property of her Majesty, and the other
the property of his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales.
The Duchy of Cornwall was private property, and had
always been private property; and in this it differed
from the duchy of Lancaster. The persons who ma-
naged these properties were accountable to those for
whose benefi, they managed it. Henry IV. had the pro-
perty of the Duchy ot Lancasterorigitially, and the Act he
passed was altered be Edward IV.; and under that Act
the property had always passed to hie heirs being Kings
of England. Let them suppose the property to be mis-
menaged, the public would lose noshing by it, though
the Queen might lose in one case, and the Prince of
Wales in the other. They would to have the matter in-
vestigated i,t they thought their properties badly man-
aged. As Vice-Chancellor of the Duchy, he could say,
though receiving 6001. a year for it, he would not con-
tinue to hold the office unless he could produce reforms
in these courts. He was anxious to have reforms there
such as were to be now cones ded in Ireland, and must
ere long be extended to the High Court of Chancery in
England.—(liearo
Sir R. PEEL said that some experience in Parlia-
mentary discussions had made him aware that he did a
very unwise thing who spoke in the House of Commons.
and who attempted, either ti affirm or deny the right of
the House of Commons to do any one particular thing.—
(Laughter.) The right of the House of Commons
might be very extensive; but then the question ought to
be as to the expediency of exercising a right, rather than
an inquiry into the right to do so.—(llear.) When
it wai said that the House of Commons was intetested
in instioiting or making such an inquiry, a tlstinction
was to be de ‘wri between that portion of the property
of the Crown which was assigned to the public in
lieu of the civil list, and those properties, such as the

• Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, which were reserved
for the Crown. As to other portions of the Crown pro-
perty, the public clearly had a right to make an inquiry,
fur the public had a direct, manifest, and prete'it in-
terest in these revenues, and in toeing that they were
prop-rly managed.--(Hen,r, hear.) Tne case, however,
ef the Duchy of Lancaster and the duchy of Cornwall
were clearly placed upon different grounds, for when the
civil list was grantee, the management of them was re-
served to the Crown.—(Hear, hear.) Such property,
too, it would be better to leave to the management of
the Crown than institute any inquiry respecting it, cc •
less there was char and signal proof afforded for the se-
curity of such an inquiry. He was not one to deny, not-
withstanding the special nature of this property, that if
its revenues were used for corrupt purposes, if they
were grossly mismanaged, or if the law expenditure
was wasteful and extravagant—in such a case he did
not mean to say that the House of Commons would not
have a right to institute an inquiry—(Hear, hear)—
but then he positively denied that any such presump-
tion could be made, or any such inference could be
drawn, with respect to the management of this property.
He had the honour in the Duchy of Cornwall of being a
trustee fur his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, for
receiving the accumulations of the property, and invest-
ing them in the funds ; and thus he said that it was his
belief that there was no property, public or private,
better managed than the property of the Duchy of Corn-
well.—(Hear.) He looked to the persons who e ere
concerned in the management of that property—to a
person like Mr. Pemberton Leigh—to a gentleman e f
his high character who spoke last—men of their high
station and character, who willingly devoted themselves
to that service. When, he said, he considered these
things, be deprecated any inquiry K hich might eeprive
the Crown of men of the valueole services and high sta-
tion of Mr. Pemberton Leigh arid the Hon. and Learned
Member (Mr. Wood.) What were the facts ? In the
Duchy of Comm all during the late reign high salaries
were given to men holding Parliamentary offices con-
nected with the Administration. These were. during the
reign of William IV., 8.6771.; and the present charges for
salaries were 2.500/. The charges for law expenses for nine
years, up to 1840, were 4,1801. Now the greater part
ef the law expenses, by a recent arrangement, were, for
the year 1849, not more—that was, for the solicitor's
hill—than 271.—(Hear.) A great increase had taken
place in the superannuation allowances; but these were
granted for the express purpose of diminishing the number
of officers, and of retaining only those that were bona fide
concerned in the public administration of the duchy.—
(Hear.) But then some complaint had been made with
respect to the leases. He admitted that there had been
great laxity with respect to the management of the
estate—that every one was looking for what he could
get out of it- It was said, " the Crown must act libe-
rally—the Crown must deal with great indulgence to
those that are on its estetss."—(Hear.) A different
system now prevailed. It was desired to make as much
of the property as they possibly could. Instead of
taking money by fines, lives on leases were refused, and
the value of the property was now annually realised, so
as to admit of the property being made as much of
as possible, and of thus diminishing any future
charge that should be placed upon the country
when a settlement came to be made on the Prince of
Wales, on his attaining his majority. In making such
a change in the principle of management it was not to
be supposed but that complaints would he made by those
whose property was affected by it.—(Hear, hear.) But
what was the reason now alleged that they should grant
an inquiry? It was, they were told, that they might
satisty those who had hypothetical charges to make!—
(Leughter.) What were hypothetical charges? It was
enough to listen to those who had real charges to prefer.
—(Hear, hear.) But now they were to grant an in-
quiry upon an hypothetical charge. Some portion of
the property had been sold to a railway company. Then,
be ventured to say, that the whole of that money had
been applied to the purposes of the trust.—(Hear, hear.)
What, then, was the nature of the hypothetical charge?
A railway passed through a portion of the Crown pro-
perty—that portion was parted with, and money was re-
ceived for the property. Well, then, that was not an
hypothetical cearge—it was a fact. But the Hon. Gen-
tleman who proposed this motion introduced a new prin-
ciple into their debates. His Noble Friend the Earl of
Lincoln had, in an able, lucid, and powerful speech, last
year given a most satisfactory answer to all the charges of
the Hon. Gentleman, and he (Sir R. Peel) really hoped
had then settled the question for ever. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had an opportunity of making a reply to that
speech, and he was not able to answer it. But what
did he do? He found in a newspaper, the Morning
Chronicle, a statement which he thought expressed the
opinions of the Earl of Lincoln, and not answering the
speech of his Noble Friend, but having heard that the
Earl of Lincoln looked with favour on the Morning
Chronicle, he assumed that that paper spoke the senti-
ments of the Earl of Lincoln ; and, unfortunately, the
Earl of Lincoln not being here, and last year having
made a speech which the Hon. Gentleman was not able
to answer, the Hon. Gentleman now said that ho would
not answer that speech, but he would reply to the news-
paper.—(Laughter.) If the Hon. Gentleman had said
that he would even now answer the speech of his Noble
Friend, although it would not be very Parliamentary,
still it would not be very irrational ; but being unable
to answer the speech, he levelled all his wrath upon the
newspaper, and that on the assumption that it spoke
the sentiments of the Earl of Lincoln.—(l.aught* r.)
This certainly savoured of the hypothetical charge
which the Honourable Gentleman put in another form.
(Laughter.) Now he believed that all the result of the
inquiry aught for would be this,—that it would be
suggestive to many of the better management of their
property. So far from abuses being permitted, there
was to be found every just claim on the part of tenants
attended to. There was no property in the management
ef which there were greater reforms—in which there
was a stronger desire to put down abuses, and in which
the patronage of office bad been abolished, and this for
the purpose of substituting men for those of high office,
and title, and large salaries.—(Elear.) Under these cir-
cumstances, he said, instead of discussing the abstract
question whether or not the House of Commons had a
right to institute an inquiry, he protested against any
inquiry, because an inquiry could not be enteret into
without shaking the authority of those who had con-
ducted the management of these Crown properties with
such signal success. It would be, in his opinion, a bad
return to make to such men as Mr. Pemberton Leigh to
grant such an inquiry. Everything had beets done to
promote the most strict economy in the management of
the estates of the Prince of Wales. He did hope, then,
that the House of Commons would not do anything to
disturb the arrangements that had been made by ap-
pointing a Committee f Inquiry.—(Hear.)
Mr. GIBSON—The Hon. and Learned Member for
Oxford (Mr. P. Wood) had told the House that the
funds of the Duchy of Lancaster were applied to main-
tain a defective system—that the courts of justice which
were supported out of those funds were so defective that
if they did not mend their ways, he would be under the
necessity of leaving them, and he himself, as vice-chap •
cellor of the duchy, rather intimated that he should be
obliged to come to Parliament and ask its assistance in
order to accomplish their reform. Now he (Mr. Gibson)
thought that this branch of the question was a very im-
portant one, for he understood that these separate judi-
catures, clashing as they did with the laws ef the realm,
were the cause of great public inconvenience, and that
when Acts were passed dealing with particular counties,
clauses were always inserted for reserving the rights and
privileges of the duchy courts. The system of special
jurisdiction was most vexatious, and in the main not
favourable to the public weal. He was of opinion, there-
fore, that the powers which the courts exercised over
her Majesty's subjects did give this House a just
claim is inquire whether it was fitting that any portion
of the funds should be applied to the support of these
special jurisdictions.
Mr. HUME said that Parliament had an undoubted
power to institute the inqUiry proposed by the Hon.
Member for Tavistock. He remembered the time when
nearly the whole of the revenues of the two duchies
were absorbed in the payment of salaries. He admitted,
however, that of late years considerable improvement
had taken place ; still, the fact that toe charges were
12,0001. a year, whilst the entire receipts did not exceed
30,0001., suggested that there was ground for inquiry,
it only with a view to ascertain whether there might not
be a consolidation of some of the items; for in many
cases the expense of collectiug absorb, d the whole ot the
receipts, and in such cases was attended with incenee.
nis nee to the parties who peid. and was of no benefit to
the parties who received. Were heone of the Commis•
smilers, he should at once say. " By all means let there
an inquiry." There might be a delicacy in showing the
accounts, but !here ought to be none. The accounts
were public, and the House had a right to know how the
accumulation fund was invested and applied. If an in-
quiry were granted, it would show, at any rate, that
there was nothing to canoed.
Lord DUNCAN said if one thing had struck him
more forcibly than another, in the course of the inquiry
into the Woods and Fores's by the Committee over which
he esided, it was this, that all bodies in the world
they House of Commons was the worst possible steward
in the management of propsrty.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved that the management of the property would have
t eon more diligently looked into if it had bean placed in ,
fewer hands, and that there would then have been much
lessro
tpl,ain ef. With regard to the subject of eu-
c it was his opinion that, however oppressive
actohin coeinals
the Crown might have been in olden times, at all events
in modern times it had been " more sinned against than
sinning" by the adjoining proprietors. Being of opini
that the gentlemen who presided over the duchies had
acted as good stewards for the Crown, that they had
only acted as if they were stewards for any private pro-
prietor, and that they would have been culpable bad they
done otherwise, he should vote against the motion.
Mr. STANFORD (who was but partially audible) said
that the object of the first portion of the resolution was
simply to ascertain the extent to which the public were
entitled to claim al interest, present or prospective, in
the management of the Duchies of Cornwall and Lan-
caster, and this object he thought was answered by the
discussion which the motion had elicited. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Trelawny) had thus
(to use a legal
word)" estopped" his own motion; for he could not ask
for a Committee to institute the special inquiries he
wished to raise, unless he could get the assent of the
Howe to his first inquiry,—namely, whether the public
had any interest or nut ? The speeches of the Solicitor
General and Sir R. Peel— both high authorities upon
this question—conclusively showed that the interest in
the duchies was so peculiarly private in its character
that it would be wholly impossible for this House to grant
a Committee to inquire into the other specific matters
which the Hon. Member proposed to raise upon this. If
there had been any good ground for an inquiry, he (Mr.
Stanford) should not have objected to support the motion.
When statements went foith to the public respecting
mismanagement and extravagance it was extremely
desirable that inquiry should be made; but the Learned
Solicitor-General and the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
R. Peel) bad shown that the revenues of the duchies
were admirably managed, and he must, therefore, give
his vote against: the motion.

Mr. TRELAWNY having briefly replied, the motion
was negatived without a division.
The House then went into
COMNIITTEE OF SUPPLY.—ORDNANCE
ESTIMATES.

Colonel ANSON said he regretted that he bai not the
opportunity of bringing forward the ordnance estimate;
in the ordinary way, and that he had now to adopt the
unusual course of asking the Committee to vct a sum of
money on account, for the purpose c f defraying the ex-
penditure which would become due after the close of the
tinancial year. It was very desirable that these esti-
mates should be proposed at an early period of the ses-
sion; and he admitted tE ere was great inconvenience in
the delay which had taken place—an inconvenience alike
to the Government, to the der artment, and t) this House.

—(Hear, hear.) But, however anxious the Government
might bo to expedite the public business, and however
desirous the department might be to have the sanction of
Parliament to enable it to carry on the service which was
placed more immediately under its control, the House must
be aware that there were circumstances which the Go•
ve rnment could not control, which would interfere with
business of importance being brought forward, and that
this was owing generally to measures which ha•l origi-
neted with independent Members of this House, who
were entirely unconnected with the Government.
(Hear, hear.) He merely mentioned this to show that
neither the Government nor the department was at fault
for the delay that had occurred, and for his being
obliged to have recourse to the present unusual pro-
ceeding before a general statement was made with re-
gard to the ordnance estimates, and the expenditure to
be incurre 1 for them. The House was aware that no
funds were available fa. the public service, unless sanc-
tioned by Parliament, until after the termination of
the financial year; and as this would take place within
the Easter recess, and certain payments must be made
within that time, it was evident that the course he pro-
posed to adopt was the only ono now open to him. He
knew the deep interest which was taken by this House
in matters of public expenditure, and he should not be
doing justice to the department he had the honour to re-
present if he now entered into an explanation of the de-
tails of all the votes. He would prefer doing that when the
estimates came regularly before the House. He trusted
the Committee would epee to this course, and that
they would give him permission to place a motion for
certain votes on account in the hands of the Chairman,
the whole amounting to about 600,000/. in the aggregate,
to enable her Majesty to provide for the service which
would come due after the close of the financial year. He
had permission from his Noble Friend at the head of
the Government to state that on the first supply day
after the recess the ordnance estimates would be brought
forward, and that ample opportunity would be given fur
discussing them. He would now propose a sum, on ac-
count, of 60,0001. towards defraying the expense of pay
and allowances for the ordnance military corps.
Mr. HUME thought the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman
had properly reserved his general statement; and as the
present votes were merely to enable the Government to
carry on the department, he would not throw any diffi•
culty in the way of the course proposed.
Mr. SPOONER said, that to bring forward these esti-
mates on the first supply day after the recess would be
highly objectionable, on account of so many Hon. Mem-
bers having to attend quarter sessions.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) It might be a subject for merriment with some,
but there could be no doubt that the Noble Lord would
like to have a full House for the discussion of the esti-
mates.—(Hear.)

Lord J. RUSSELL had already, to oblige lion. Mem-
bers, postponed several Bills, and amongst them the
Australian Government Bill. If he were to give up the
first day naty the recess also, it would occasion con-
siderable inconvenience.
Sir U. WILLOUGIIBY asked when it was intended
to take the miscellaneous estimates?

Lord J. RUSSELL could not then mention the day,
there being some questions relating to the miscellaneous
estimates which were not yet finally settled.
The vote was agreed to, as were als) the following
outs:—

A sum, on account, of 100,0001. towards defraying the
expense of commissariat and barrack supplies.
A sum, on account, of 20,000/. towards defraying the
expense of the Ordnance-office.
A sum, on account, of 60,0001. towards defraying the
expense of establishments in the United Kingdom and
the colonie,.

A sum, on account, of 50,000/. towards defraying the
expense of the wages of artificers and labourers in the
United Kingdom and the colonies.
A sum, on account, of 100,000/. towards defraying
the expense of ordnance stores for land and sea
services.

A sum, on account, of 150,000/. towards defraying
the expense of works, buildings, and repairs, at home
and abroad.

On the vote of 20,0001. being proposed for deflayiag
the expense of the scientific branch,
Mr. HUME inquired, with respect to the stores to
which a preceding vote referred, whether there was an
account of all the old stores that were sold last year to be
had, stating how long the articles were in store, when
they were sold, and what they were sold for? gueh an
account was requisite, became the loss to the public on
stores was very great.

Colonel AgSoN would be prepared to mention all
that had been done in that respect when he made his
statement on the suJject to the House.
The vote was agreed to, as was also a vote of 40,0001.
towards defroying the expense of the non-effective
service.
The House then resumed.

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and
The report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow

this day), at twelve o'clock.
THE CHIEF JUSTICES' SALARIES BILL.

On the motion Cr going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. CHRISTOPHER moved--" That it be an in-
struction to the said Committee, that they have power to
make provision for the prospective reduction of the sala-
ries and emoluments of the Lord Chancellor, the Master
of the Rolls, the Vice• Chancellors, the Chief Baron, and
the puisne judges." He was not aware why the Noble
Lord and the Government should be so anxious that this
Bill should receive the sanction of the House. As it was
wished to have a Committee of Inquiry on this subject,
it would be more becoming in them to delay this motion.
He could not conceive why the present Lord Chief Jus-
tice should not submit to the same arrangement which
had been made with respect to the late Lord Chief Jus-
tice (Lord Denman) until the report of the Committee
was laid on the table, and the opinion of Parliament was
known. He should not now press his motion, but reserve
his observations till the report of the Committee was be-
fore the House.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that be thought that an
opportunity offering it should be at once embraced to
settle the salary of the Lord Chief Justice in future.
Lord Brougham had objected upon principle to the
Lord Chief Justice being allowed a salary of 10,0001. a
year, and only by consent receiving 8,0001. The exe-
cutors cf the late Lord Chief Justice might, it was
thought, have a legal claim to the difference between
10,0001. and 5,0001., and it was to prevent the possibi-
lity of a similar claim on the part of the preseut Lord
Chief Justice that the Government had introduced this
Bill. As notice of a Committee to inquire into the
salaries of the Lord Chief Justices had been given, if
any other vacancies occurred in the offices that were
to be the subject of inquiry, appointments would be
made, subject to a reduction such as Parliament might
desire.
Mr. MULLINGS said that the Act of Parliament
did not fix the salary of the Lord Chief Justice at
10,0001. It was simply permissive. The Honourable
Gentleman read the provisions of the Act (2 and 3
William IV., cap. 116) under which the salaries of the
chief justices were authorised to be granted. The sala-
ries were not fixed, as supposed, bat only authorised to
be granted to that amount, if it should be thought fit so
to fix the salary. In support of this construction be
might quote the authority of Sir Edward Sugden. This
Bill was therefore wholly unnecessary, and the only
effect of it would be as an indication of the opinion of
Parliament that the salary of the Lord Chief Justice
should be fixed at 8,0001. He thought these salaries too
large, considering the state of the country. He asked
the Government to pospone this Bill. If they did not,
upon going into Committee, he would move an amend-
ment, if he stood alone. He again asked to have the Bill
postponed.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that the law, as
stut,el by the Hon. Gentleman, was not correct. If it
were the legal construction, let the judge offend the Go-
vemment and they might at once reduce his salary.—
(Hear, hear.) The principle of the Acts of Parliament,
and the intention of the Legislature, was to make the
judges of the land independent, and nothing could be
more detrimental to the public interest than to make the
salary of the judges dependent upon the will of the Go-
venm nt of the day. The words of the Act were, not
that a salary not exceeding 10,0001. should be granted,
hut that the salary of the Lord Chief Justice be 10,0001.
If the life of Lord Denman was to come to a close, and
his will was silent upon the subject, he very much
doubted whether the executors of that Noble and
Learned Lord would net be compelled to enforce the
payment of the extra 2,0001. per annum, which Lord
Denman had not received, otherwise they would be
guilty of, to use a technical torus, devastavit. He thought
the introduction and passing of this measure was abso-
lutely necessary.
Mr. HUME asked, did not the Act of 1525 establish
the right that the salary should be 10,000/. per annum,
and therefore give the executors of Lord Denman a
power to recover the 2,0001. not paid for the last eighteen
3 ears, but this sum he felt assured would not be claimed.
lie felt a great satisfaction that the Noble Lord (Lord
J. Rzsell) had consented to the appointment of a Com-
mittee to regulate the salaries of the judges, for the
main question before them would be the expenditure of
more than half a million sterling. In a word, he thought
the proposed income was too much, for in 1792 the
salary did not exceed 4,0001. per annum, and at that
time the puisne judges and others had not more than
3,000/. per annum. Then there was an increase in the
Lord Chi( f Justice's salary in 1819, and another in
1825, to the amount of 10,000/ per annum. He should
next allude to the immense expense of 67,0001, which
was paid out of the suitors' fund to the judges, and
which fund he was of opinion should be thrown into the
tre. sury. In fact, he looked upon this motion as pre-
mature, particularly as the Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) had pledged himself to bring in a Bill to make
a reduction in the appointments made before last session.
Mr. V. SMITH said that he felt it his duty to support
the Government on this occasion, though he should at
the same time say that there had been very great negli-
gence on their part in not bringing in a Bill long since
to prevent the doubts that must necessarily arise in the
public mind from such a delay. He did not apprehend
anything from Lord Denman as to the demand of 2.000/.
a year for the last eighteen years; but he thought that
care should be taken against the power of the executors,
who should necessarily make this demand on the demise
of Lord Denman. He also considered that it would be
premature to enter on the question of the salaries of the
Lord Chief Justices of the Queen's Bench, and of the