The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-19 00:00:00

CHARITABLE PAWN SOCIETIES BILL.
Mr. DIVNTZ-presented a petition from the pawn-
brokers of Birrnittg4ani against this Bill.
Mr. DIVETT presented a petition to the same
effect from the pawnbrokers at Exeter.
Lord J. MANNERS also presented a petition
against this Bill.
MASTERS AND SERVANTS BILL.
Viscount DUNCANNON presented a petition
from Rath against.the Masters and Servants' Bill.
Mr. BERKELEY presented a petition from. the
Staffordshire Potteries against the Masters and Ser-
vants Bill.

on the fourth occasion he had been employed on pub-
lic buSiness. The conduct of the Recorder of Wor-
cester afforded nol ground whatever for the Bill.
Mr. PAKINGTON had stated nothing with re-
gard to the conduct of the Recorder of Worcester
that ho was not perfectly ready to substantiate.
After a few words from Mr. V. SMITH and Sir J.
GRAHAM, the order was discharged.
The County Coroners Bill was ordered to be re-
committed pro forma to•morrow, in order that the
several amendments might be printed, with a view to
consideration on a future day.
The County Courts Bill was appointed for Wed-

PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES. nesday next.
Lord. J. RUSSELL presented a petition from On Mr. COWPIR being called on to fix a day for the
Dublin on the question of Presbyterian marriages in dropped order on the Charitable Pawn Society Bill,
Ireland. The .Noble Lord also presented a petition in Mr. GLADSTONE said he had to submit to the
favour of the ten hours' clause of the Factories Bill. Hon. Gentleman and the House, that, under circum-
NOTICES OF MOTION. stances which he would name, it was not desirable
Mr. F. FRENCH gave notice that he should, to- that the Charitable Pawn Society Bill should for the
morrow, put a question to the Home Secretary, as to present be further proceeded in. In recommending
the course the Government intended to pursue with that the Bill should for the present be withdrawn, he
respect to the medical charities in Ireland. by no means wished it to be supposed that the Go-
EDUCATION. , vernment was indifferent to it. The subject had been
Me. EWART gave notice that he should, , under the consideration of the Government on several
to-morrow bring under the consideration of the House . occasions, and it was under their consideration at the
the expediency of voting a sum of money to be ap- present moment. Gentlemen appointed by the Go-
plied to the purposes of education. He also gave vernment were now engaged in investigations upon the
notice that he should, on a future day, introduce, as subject, in order that the whole case, both as to the
on. former occasions a motion for the total abolition law and the practice of pawnbrokers, might be fully
of the punishment of death. understood. The Government, therefore, thought it
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. their duty, under these circumstances, to suggest to
Lord ASHLEY wished to state the course that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper) to consent to the
be proposed to take with respect to the Factories Bill. discharge of the order for his Bill.
He had intended to move an instruction to the Corn- I Mr. COWPER said a Committee sat upon this sub-
mittee, but the Speaker had given him to under- ject in the year 1838, and the House, therefore, had
stand that it was not consistent with Parliamentary not been taken by surprise by the introduction of his
law to do so. The Speaker had likewise informed Bill. Still, after the intimation of the Right Hon.
him that he would not be able to move the insertion j Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), that the subject was
of any clause till after the whole of the clauses of the under the actual consideration of the Government, he
Bill had been. disposed of in Committee. That be- should feel it his duty to consent to the discharge of
ing the case, he thought it better to take the Order.—The Bill, therefore, is lost.
another course ; and as it was probable that On the motion of Lord G. SOMERSET, the
in Committee there would be no opposition to Dropped Order for the Court of Chancery (County
the Bill as it now stood, and the Committee Palatine of Lancaster) Bill was re-appointed for this
stood for the 26th, he had determined to. day fortnight.
move on the third reading that certain clauses AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
be added to the Bill for the purpose of carrying out Mr. M. GIBSON then rose to move that an hum-
the amendment he contemplated. Her Majesty's ble Address be presented to her Majesty, represent-
Government had concurred in that arrangement, and ing that, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable
had given him to understand that they would arrange , to obtain authentic information upon all matters con-
the business of the House so as it the Bill went 1 uected with the agriculture of the United
through Committee on Friday, the 26th, that the Kingdom ; that this information is altoge-
. third reading would be had on that day week—that ther deficient, so that at this time even the
was, to-morrow fortnight. He would now, there- extent of land under cultivation, and the amount of
fore, give notice, that on that day, on the third its produce, are subjects only of vague conjecture;
reading of the Bill, he would move the addition of that the total absence of all statistical knowledge in
clauses limiting the number of hours of work per reference to this important subject, has at various
day in factories to eleven hours, until the Ist of Oct. times proved detrimental to the public interests; and
1847', and after that period he should propose a fur- praying her Majesty to devise measures for
ther limitation. supplying to Parliament, from time to time,
On the question that the Order of the Day be now statements of the breadth of land under
read, cultivation for each species of produce re-
Mr. P. M. STEWART begged to put a question spectively, and the amount of produce derived
to the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Ma- from the same ; together with such other in-
jesty's Government. He wished to know if it was the formation as will exhibit, as far as practicable, a
Right Hon. Baronet's intention to submit the con- perfect view of the agricultural capability and pro-
teniplated measure with regard to the law of bahliing,_ duction of the United Kingdom. He said the potion
before or after the day fixed for bringing forward the of which he had given notice contained within itself
Budget. It' material changes were contemplated much of the argument by which he intended to sup •
it would be a matter of consequence that the bankers port it. He hoped that Hon. Gentlemen would not
should have early intimation of them, but if it was allow their ditkrences on other questions to prevent
not contemplated to make any great changes, of course their agreeing on this one ;he trusted that they would
it would not much matter. . allow this question to rest exclusively on its own merits,
Sir R. PEEL begged that the Hon. Gentleman nor consider that it had any end, meaning, or intention
would not draw any inferences from the fixing of the in view, but that which the words of the resolution
period for introducing that measure, and if the Hon. implied. He should be enabled to show that the pro-
Geatleman meant to make any speculations, he advised posal he made was a practical one, that it could only
him not to found them upon anyprohability of great or be carried into effect by the assistance of the Govern-
unimportant changes. His Right Hon. Friend the ment, that it was not only practicable but easy,
Chancellor of Exchequer had fixed Monday, the 29th, and that the information he desired to obtain would
fir bringing forward the Budget, and on the Monday be useful, not only to agriculturists, but to the
following he (Sir R. Peel) proposed to bring forward commercial classes, and would be conducive to
the question of the Charter of the Bank of England, the general welfare of the community. He believed
in case he should fail of securing precedence for that it was unnecessary for him to say a word here on the
question on the Tuesday. general advantage of statistical information on the
Mr. HUME, said it would be much better to fix the great interests of the country, not merely to philoso-
day at once. . phers and political writers, but to the practical states-
Mr. BORTHWICK said it was now more than man. For he was quite certain, if facts were not
probable that on Friday, the 26th, the House would within reach, estimates and conjectures would
go into Committee., and he wished to ask the Right be made use of, and legislation would be founded
Hon. Baronet whether it would be therefore necessary on those conjectures, often vaguely obtained, when it
to postpone the Poor-law Amendment Bill, that stood ought to be founded only on facts. Parliament had
fixed for that day, according to the arrangement made already recognised the advantage of collecting facts,
before Easter ? in reference to the different interests of the country,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was unwilling to by the expense it had incurred and the trouble it had
disturb the arrangements which fixed before Easter the taken at various times, for procuring such information.
order of the business throughout the cur- For instance, on the number of the people, their wealth
rent month. Certainly according to that (to some extent), their resources, their power, and
arrangement the Poor-law Amendment Bill for the classification of the facts thus obtained, it
stood for Committee for Friday, the 26th inst. would not only be advantageous to the Government
The house had heard what his Noble Friend itself to possess the statistical information with refer-
the Member for Dorsetshire had proposed. nice to the productive industry of the country, which
Tie (Sir James Graham) was anxious to he was seeking to obtain ; but also to the persons
meet the Noble. Lord's convenience, and the themselves who were most interested in the various
convenience of the House, on the condition that it branches of industry. It was very desirable that
could only be done by disturbing the arrangement they should have accurate information on the subject.
made before Easter, if the House would consent to There was no doubt that the misapplication of capital
the course suggested by his Noble Friend. The in this country frequently arose from the want of
course to be taken, then, would be, that the accurate statistical information. This argument pecu-
Factory Bill would be read a second time liarly applied to agriculture, and he therefore called
on Monday next. It should be the the first thing on on her Majesty's Government to devise measures to
that day. The Committee on the Bill should be supply the country with accurate statements as to the
fixed tor Friday, the 26th, in preference quantity of land under cultivation, and the different
to the Poor-law Bill, which, in that case, kinds of agricultural productions which the culti-
if the House consented, he should postpone vated land of the country brought forth. By this
till after the Factory Bill was disposed of. The third information they would be enabled to solve the pro-
reading could then be fixed for Friday, the 3d of May. blem of the proportion of the food produced in the
If that course were assented to he (Sir J. Graham) country to the population. They would be enabled
would be eble to. answer the question of the-Hon. to compare the relative increase of food and popula-
Member for Evesham, that the Bill would not come tion in different years, by comparing the different re-
on till after the next Order of the Day. turns with succeeding years. He did not desire to
. Lord J. RUSSELL saw no objection to the ar- introduce a corn-law discussion, and he wished to
rangement proposed, it being always understood that guard himself against any misunderstanding upon
on the second reading they would not be precluded this point. It might be inferred that by his
from taking any discussion which any Hon. Member mentioning his desire to obtain the propor-
might think proper to originate. Ile did not wish tion of food to the population of the coun-
.to delay the Bill, but of course it must be try, that he was thereby advocating a re-
understood that no arrangement could be made of peal of the corn-laws as a contingent measure ;
any kind having the effect alluded to. With respect and that he based his support of free trade in corn on
to. the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, he supposed that it' the ground that the country did not produce sufficient
the Factories Bill took up any great length of corn for the consumption of the population. Now,
time, the Right Honourable Gentleman would he would be just as strong a supporter of free trade in
• move the second reading of the Ecclesiastical corn, even if the country produced ten times as much
Courts Bill on the Monday following. With re- as was sufficient for the consumption of the people.
gard to any arra.tigement for bringing on the ques- The reason he advocated free trade in Corn was that
tion of banking. on Tuesday, he hoped the Right he believed it to be a civil right. Freedom of ex-
lion. Gentleman would not be disposed to counte- change he conceived to be a civil right, and as such
mince any such arrangement, as a great many notices he would.ever support it. The information which he
of motion stood for that day. was then seeking would be eminently useful to persons
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that the Noble Lord connected with, and engaged in, agriculture. If the
would see the position in which he (Sir R. Peel) NV 84 agriculturists had the means of knowing the amount
placed in consequence of his acquiescing in the pro-
of the produce of the country they would be enabled
posals for postponement of certain business that had
been fixed before Easter. lie had intended to form data which would afford them an opportunity
of applying
at that period that the Irish Registration Bill shouldgreater skill in the cultivation of their
land. A merchant could not carry on his business
have been brought forward on Friday next, but in unless he had the advantage of tabular statements of
consequence of the request of the Hon. Gentleman imports and exports which related to his business ;
opposite (Mr. Wyse) he had agreed to postpone and he (Mr. Gibson) believed that the farmer and the
the Bill solely on the ground which the agriculturist would be enabled to the same extent to
Honourable Gentleman had made as the basis make use of similar information as a sort of guide to
of his request. An erroneous inference had been cultivation.—(Hear, hear.) In that information the
drawn from his acquiescence in the Hon. Gentleman's farmer and the agriculturist were now completely
proposal, that the Government wished to shrink from deficient. They had not the smallest data in the
pressing the Bill. He wished to remove any such world by which they could ascertain the extent of
impression, and he would fix an early day for the land which was under cultivation in this country, or
second reading of that Bill. . what amount of produce the land brought forth.
Sir J. GRAHAM proposed on Monday to move, They had indeed geographical and trigonometrical
as the first Order of the Day, the second reading of surreys, but they wanted more than that. The most
the Factories Bill, and then the Ecclesiastical Courts' eminent writers on political economy, and the most
Bill ; and on Friday, the 26th, he should move the eminent writers on social improvement, had all ad•
Committee on the Poor-law Bill. mitted the total absence of that information which he
Mr. WYSE, in allusion to what had fallen from was then calling on her Majesty's Government to
the Right lion. Baronet on the subject of the second furnish to the country. Mr. Porter, a name which
reading of the Irish Registration Bill, begged to re- he knew would carry weight with it in that House,
mind the Right Hon. Gentleman that he had stated, in his celebrated work on the progress of the nation,
when he asked for the postponement of the measure, regretted the total absence of statistical information
that the Irish Members could not be ready to take a of this description. To give the House some idea of
part in the discussion under a fortnight ; and he the necessity of this information, he would just state
trusted, therefore, that the second reading of the mea- that a short time ago the Earl of Essex, at a corn-
sure would not be hurried.
Sir ROBERT PEELIaw meeting, expressed his firm belief that the country
said that. he could not fie Xwas fully capable of producing sufficient food for the
an earlier day for the second reading of the Bill than
that which the Hon. Gentleman had d. consumption of the population. The gentlemen who
Mr. BOTHWICk. was glad to namhe . . entertained similar views to his (Mr. Gibson's) held
hear t e discussion
on the Poor-law Bill was fixed for an early day. a different opinion, and these conflicting opinions
——
showed how necessary it was to have the
DROPPED ORDERS OF YEST-it •
g DA information he was then seeking.—(Hear, hear.)
Several of the dropped orders
disposed of. of yesterday were Mr. Porter, in his book on the progress of the nation,
QUARTER SESSIONS BILL. remarked that, owing to the want of information at
the time of the most limited harvests which had oc-
Sir JAMES GRAHAM hoped that his Ho- curred for a great number of years, the price of corn
nourable Friend, the Member for Droitwich would continued to fall, until it was ascertained that there
consent to have the Order of the Day for proceed., . was a scarcity of corn, and then the price flew rapidly
lug with this Bill discharged. He had receivedi up. He alluded to the year 1837-8. It would there-
from the Recorders of several large cities in which fore be seen that the want of this information was
Quarter Sessions
were held, representations
to the; disadvantageous both to the consumer and the pro-
effect that any legislation on the subject would be ; ducer, inasmuch as the absence of this information
Inexpedient.
He believed the that underprovisions caused . great fluctuation in price. He knew that au-
of• the Municipal Corporations Act,
. the Secretary of thority had great weight in that House, and very
and he 1 find very little difficulty in giving ample authorities
thought had the power of regulating, to a certain ex- : properly so. Re Was happy to think that he would
for the propriety of the course he recommended to the
tent, the proceedings of quarter sessions,
owould be better 1
thought that the, evils complained
removed by the interference of the Secretary .
of ' House. In the first place, he hadaddressed himself
State
to the agricultural gentlemen, but
State than by the Legislature. he should now turn
• Mr. PAKINGTON had, when he proposed
in the year 1836 on the
ofagricultural • '
Bill, *Aged it as his, opinion, that it would be better , subject distress. He there found that
the several suggestions there
that the measure should be taken up by the Gover.n. 1 one of
inmade by the wit•
nesses order to prevent a recurrenceof the eV
. "'lents He had introduced the Bill with the entire I , distress,
was that there should be established a system of • '
- eoncurrence of that Right Hon. Gentleman, and he.
' would at once consent to the discharge of the order. cultural statistics. It was suggested in that Com-
a e llse '"'AWS was glad the lion. Gentleman had mittee, that as such a system was so useful to mer-
fte—*— the request of the Right Hon. Baronet. , chants—guiding them in their adventures, and regu-
When be had introduced the Bill the Hon. Gentle- lating the hazards they would otherwise run—it
inah had stated , that the Bill was rendered necessar ought to be, and might most advantageously be, intro-
- !).y the conduct of certain R • ' y d the transactions of the landowner and
ecorders wticularly by duce into .
i'. conduct- of the Recorder of Vir Th ' farmer. But his mind had been more particularly
snort. Gentleman- had statedthat
no less
e i.
this subject, from perusing
.a pamphlet
less than four ' directed to
adjourn , ... icl,--ken place unnecessarily. . Now, i written by the Right lion. Gentleman in the chair
. .
of thots‘ . eo ei rtAglts, the first had taken lace
' 'L f vre) and which had been prompted from
p i (fir. e.e , .
' beforeVelliseirsed lii4 °Ace ; the secondd b that Right Hon. Gentleman
was .an error :the experience derive y
- of his .
- . . 'l4 di
on Oefrart- , ;., 1517 f mites; the_ third had been' as a member of the Committee he had referred to.
mai in conoteterdte. Keith all the authorities; and i The opinions expreved so strongly in that pamphlet
/• . ,
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