The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF L 4 81)1S, March 22.
THE EXHIBITION OF 1851.
Lord BROUGHAM, in moving for certain returns
relating to this subject, took occasion to reiterate his
objections to the proposed exhibition taking place in
Hyde-park. He admitted the validity of the objections
of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Carlisle) to Victoria-
park, hilt he could see no objection to the
proposed exhibition taking place in Regent's-park
He also objected to the funds being raised by
voluntary contributions. Many shopkeepers subscribed
their money under a species, he would not say of com•
pulsion, considering those who exercised what the
French might call une douse vivlsnce.v.but at the solicita-
tion of customers. The object was a national one, the
expense should be defrayed by the nation. There had
been a meeting of 168, not tailors but mayors, at which
his Noble Friend had indulged in observations
which he might have thought intended for assneer, but
however volatile he might be, he certainly should not
take a flight from the House of Peers to the House of
Mayors, to notice in the former House what might have
taken place in the latter.—(A laugh.) He, however,
protested against this species cf influence which was
exercised over the London tradesmen to induce them
to subscribe to the expenses of this exhibition.
The Earl of GRANVILLE considered that the Noble
and Learned Lord had somewhat exaggerated the incon-
venience which might arise to the public from the pro-
posed exhibition taking place in Hyde-park. The pro- '
posed site was a narrow strip of land nearly opppsite
Knightsbridge-barracks, which was scarcely at all Co-
quented by the public. He could not but notice some:
what of inconsistency in the conduct of the Noble and
Learned Lord, who at a— meeting in Westminster
had stated that he had interrupted judicial
proceedings, and had broken through a rule that he had
laid dowu for the last twenty years in order to attend
the meeting for promoting the proposed exhibition, be-
cause he considered it a national object. Now, certainly,
his speech of the other evening had not being calcu-
lated to premoto that which, at the Westminster meet-
ing, he had declared to be a national object.
Lord BROUGHAM contended that he had
not been inconsistent. He had stated at t
meeting, and on the other night, and he
repeated. it now, that the immediate effect of the exhi-
bition would be to lower prices of commodities, but that
ultimately it might produce benefit. He had said that
he would not subscribe, as a consumer, to promote an
exhibition which would be immediately beneficial to him-
self, but for a time injurious to the shopkeeper.
Lord OVERSTONE said there was not a class in the
country which had not put forward their most distin-
guished nrembers to aid in promoting this exhibition,
and with regard to the meeting of yesterday, it was
a most remarkable event to find there eminent statesmen
of all parties, and eminent representatives of every branch
of industry, assembled to bear their testimony that this
exhibition was based upon the wisest views, and would
promote the permanent industrial interests of the coun-
try, of thoae who, on former occasions, had been eulo-
gised by the Noble and Learned Lord as the represen-
tatives of the best interests of the country, and he was
surprised to find the Noble and Learned Lord now
coming down to denounce this exhibition, after having
at the Westminster meeting proposed one_of-thsseresolu-
dons, and after having apologised to the meeting for
leaving it, and declaring that he had interrupted solemn
judicial proceedings to attend it, the object el that meet-
ing being to raise voluntary subscriptions to prcmote
the objects of that exhibition. Then with regard to the
site, they had a warning not to yield lightly to the sug-
gestions of the Noble Lord, who now came down to
declare that the suggestions which he had made the
other night as to the site of-;;the building
La the proposed exhibition was altogether erroneous.
The Commission did not proceed lightly, it was
deeply impressed with the responsibility which
weighed upon it, and it t Jule no step without
due consideration. The site had not been chosen with-
out thought or deliberaion. It had been chosen on the
almost unanimous decision c f the most eminent
scientific men of the age. Hyde -park was more
level than Regent's• psi keen(' Regent's park was the resort
for recreation of the middle end inferior classes of society,
while Hyde-park was almost exclusively the resort of
the riches classes, and it would be most unjust to de -
prive the middle and inferior classes of their recreation
ground; and, besides, it was desirable that the building
should be erected on a si'e that might be easily
restored to its original condition. The Noble
Lord had expressed a fear that the building would be
permanent. The greatest security against that wou:d
be to erect it in Hyde-park. The Noble Lord con-
cluded by pronouncing a high eulogium upon Prince
Albeit f,r the great labour he had undergone in origi-
nating and promoting this undertaking.
Lord STANLEY said that atter the able and excel-
lent speech of the Noble Lord who had just spoken it
would be unnecessary for him to allude ti the general
question, but be could net pass altogether unnoticed the
speech °lbis Noble and Learned and very discreet Friend.
He certainly did express his regret that the notion that
the proposed exhibition would damage the interests of
the tradesmen of L melon had received countenance from
the authority of his Noble and Learned, and be feared
be Lad added, some% bat volatile Friend (Lord
Brougham). He acknowledged that he did use that ex-
pression, and partly on the grounds stated by the Noble
Lord opposite, that he thought that on that particular
question he bad seen some sudden inconsistency and
change of opinion, an -1 views between the language used
by the Noble and Learned Lord at the Westminster
meeting, and the language he had used in that House
the other night. But he really thought his Noble and
Learned Friend would have taken it as a compliment,
only, he must admit, very far below the amount of power
and the extent of merit of the noh'e individual to whom
he had alluded—(Laughter)—for in trutb, in point of
quickness, activity, pungency and erergy, sal vo.'atile
was nothing to hies—(Laughter)—for they might pre-
vent the essence of that salt from escaping by putting a
glass stopper ever it, but he defied any human power,
even his Noble Friend himself, to put any stopper—
whether of glass or any other material—over the inten-
sity of the activity and pungency
.of his own mind.—
(Laughter.) Yet he must do his Noble and Learned
Friend the justice to say that he believed, although the
activity and energy of his mind, and the wit and readi-
ness of his speech, were as quick and pungent as volatile
essence, still they did not partake to the full extent in the
offensiveness and acrimony of that essence; and
he hoped that the long friendship which had subsisted
between them would not be disturbed for a single mo-
ment by that expression.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord
Brougham.) Ever hereafter he should form a more
correct estimate of his Noble Friend's qualities. He
should look on him, on his own showing, no longer as
one of those quick, active, energetic men, who were
promrt to take up any question and make it important,
and who were readily and easily capable of dealing with
any and every question, not only one after another, but
in such rapid succession that it might almost be said he
dealt with them all at one time.—(Laughter.) On the
contrary, he should consider him as of a grave, serious,
plodding, proper, slow, heavy nature—(Laughter)—hot
hasty in forming his judgment, nor rash in expressing
his opinion,never pronouncing on any matter with which
he was not familiar, nor dealing with many subjects at
one and the same time, but by intense labour and delibe-
rate study making himself master, and thoroughly mas-
ter, of one question at a time, and no more, and never
venturing to speak on that or any other subject
until he had acquired a knowledge of all its bear-
ings and details; and above all, never making use of any
expression which at any time he might be desirous of
recalling. That was the view which, on his own show-
ing, he should from that time take of his Noble and
Learned Friend; but if anything should occur to dis-
abuse him of that impression, he would candidly confess
his want of judgment, and withdraw all he had said.—
(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned Lord had said
that be had been so long under his (Lord Stanley's)
tuition, that he had contracted something of his cha-
racter, but although they est on the same side of the
!louse, still their opinions were not the same on all sub-
jects.nwihs
hene dh
telh'
spoke
pteohNkt:hei oddabeti
seriouslydl eohnfeLot
(hot rLec dool
House
for
d(toorßußar
fircreoltoushwuygigi
ishtthihhagamamhb)i
that
him,
habits
tahaustns,
hsutdi
el
tdsftohi
wnnroggoauistisvdoseapvl himsoectanno
g
ot
117 r et he
saran
hint
k
cith irony on a subject that he openly avowed he was
determined to support. He should add the. he was per-
fectly assured that the great majority of the people of
London were strongly ut Opinion that this grand and
noble institiAton would be of the greatest benefit
ruble to them, and he (Lord Stanley) therefore thought
that the Noble and Learned Lord should couch hts ex-
pressions in such arnauner as riot to lead to the opinion that
this greet majority of the inhabitants of the metropolis
tdutroeniewt;aldl!yadfferellt'dtehdelirn bsauspi--
pwoesrien
gv etrhya
tgsruecaht oaonl eisr,
wheni
he uni
d realityha ve plc utlod
thihei
nak sees
..
-f
istohesduptphtitatt
htehedovibloonotst
on 'B6 Birwijuitrhyatdovtatinetmag,ea's
() the
t. tNh
eebinstitution
ha no t w sae r us
ts
01 yn•
avail himself of .the Lord Mayor's dinner, but he should
that,rnsaayking h
s perhaps,aekno w hisled g
mmodesty
at
ptrheavtendtindnehrimof fl:thine
svteirtyutigore.at importance he attached to this excellent in-
The Duke of Argyle and Lord Brougham roe to-
gether; the former gave way.

Lord BROUGHAM said, that he thought that the
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley), from his long • xperienco in
Parliament, should afford him an opportunity of reply,
and for the advice that ho had so kindly given him
(Lord Brougham) on the sukject of the use of a
figure of irony, he begged and revestei of him
(Lord Stanley) to receive a suggestion from him,
which he gave with the most perfect sincerity of
purpose, and with all the kindness and benevoleace
of feeling that he could entertain for another, and that
was, that the Noble Lord, when he disavowed the opi-
nion of another, should allow him an opportunity of de-
fending himself, for such he looked upon as the unvary-
ing and infloxible rule of society. But such the Noble
Lord (Lord Stanley) did not do, but he goes off three
miles distant to the Mansion-house, and there gets the
laugh of him, but such he looked upon as a dull joke,
which, it it be reported, would bo followed by only the
word " laughter." He had listened with much pleasure
and satisfaction to the Noble Lord (Lord Overstone) on
his first si eech, and was happy to state it as his opinion,
from that speech, that the House and the country might
expect great service and advantage from a person pos-
sessed of such ability and experience as the Noble Lord,
and the cause which he would support would obtain con-
siderable strength and effect from his advocacy. The
Noble Lord again adverted to the remarks of Lord Stan-
ley, and exprestod his willingness to give every support
in his power to the in4itution.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSI)OWNE, the
Mutiny Bill and the Marine Mutiny Bill w•.re read is
second time. The Noble Marquis was understood to
propose that t`mir Lordships should meet to-morrow to
pass these Bills, which would enable hint to move that
their Lordships should adjourn on Monday night for the
Easter holidays.
PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND).
The Duke of ARGYLE rose to present several peti-
tions from various parts of Scotland, praying the House
to refuse its consent to any Bill that may be proposed
purporting to alter the constitution of the parochial
schools of Scotland. The Noble Duke said that his mo-
tive for trespassing on their Lordships' attention for a
shorts time, as he intended, was because there was a
Bill ha another place which tended materially to alter
the cdsfttitution of the parochial schools of Scotland, and
which he felt convinced would be of very great injury
to the cause of education in Scotland, and which would
be most repugnant to the feelings of the people of that
country. The Noble Duke then referred to the a4gres-
i sive system of some of the Independents, and also of
Roman Catholics, which were endeavouring to uproot
this parochial system that existed from time immemorial,
and hoped that their Lordships would oppose this Bill
on its introduction from the other House; for nothing
could be more obnoxious to the people of Scotland than
that a system of education that they had kept intact
from generation to generation should now be altered
against their will, for the purpose ,of establishing na-
tional schools.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE concurred with the
Noble Duke that it was of importance to preserve and
enconrage the parochial schools in Scotland, seeing that
they had given great satisfaction; and, with respect to
the other schools, he thought they might be established
. ,
in that country without any aggression on_ the present
system of education in Scotland, which, it must be ad-
mitted, was most effect, and much to bo admired. In-
deed, he might-add, that the syste m of education which
'4iittlbeen carried on in Scotland gave to that country a
just pre-eminence. He touk that opportunity of saying
how much he felt acknowledgment to be due on this
subject to the efforts of the Established Church in Scot-
laud, and also of the Free Church in that country ; and
it was gratifying to see that both were met in a spirit of
conciliation and concession on this most important
subject.
Lord BROUGHAM entirely agreed in the opinions
and eulogies expressed by the Noble Duke and the No-
ble Marquis on the parochial schools in Scotland ; and
thought with the Noble Marquis that an extension of
education might take place in that country eithout any
innovation upon, or change in, the coustitutivn of the
parochial schools in that country.
The petition was then laid on the table.
CHARGES AGAINST THE OFFICERS AND
CREW OF THE SOBBAON.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL moved " That an
humbles address be presented to ler Majesty for a copy
of the minutes of the proceedings affecting the character
and conduct of the surgeon-superintendent, master, and
officers c f the emigrant ship Sob; .on, referred to in dis-
patches No. 116 and No. 242 from Governor C. A.
Fitzroy to Earl Grey last year." Ile thought it de-
sirable not to postpone his motion to a future day,
seeing that the question was one of great importance to
the public. He thought that the intimation that the do-
cuments were voluminous was no excuse why they should
not be laid on the table of their Lordships' /louse.
Their Lordships were aware that letters had lately ap-
pearedpapers from one or two of the par-
charges of ill-treatment of the ties implicated
in the p
iunb c
the
or-
phan emigrants on board the Sobraon, and both tried.to
duo their Lordships,
The that
captain
thei
exculpate thernselves;ibut he (Lord Mountcashell) hoped
for the sake of the public, the parties injured, and
an
what was
be strictly as
de t
of
matter
on board the vessel complained that he was not allowed
to bring forward his own witnesses, and that none of the
witnesses against him were sworn on their examination.
Their Lordships would see that the charges mace of the
ill-treatment of the female emigrants, by the officers and
crew of the vessel, were of the most grave character, and
that one of the unfortunate females had lost her life as a
consequence of that ill-treatment on her passage to the
colony. Lie (Lord Mountcashell) wishe Ito know whe-
ther the investigation was condue!o 1 in the manner al-
lrged by the impl!catei parties, and whether the wit-
nesses were or ware not examined on oath. Oae of the
charges was supplying bad end insufficient food and
water to the emigrants, which wasa violation of the Pee-
sengere' Act. Anoiher charge was, that spirits were
seld on board, atad that the females here induced to par-
take of them. Some of the poor orphans who had been
il!-treated were foundlings, from Dublin, and some Here
poor girls from poor-law unions its Ireland; and the su-
perintendent surgeon of the vessel, instead of taking
steps to protect them, proposed, as ore or his first steps
on the vessel sailing out, that the officers should take
them as servants into their cabins. Their Lordships
might easily conclude what happened under such a course
if conduct as that. Ono of the poor girls, described as a
most interesting creature, died, it was said by some, of
fever, and by others from a different cause. • It was
reported that " drugs" had been a iministered to her to
produce abortion, and she never reached the colony. He
held in his hand a report, taken from papers, relative
to emigration, by a Committee of the House cf Com-
mons, on the 31st of July, 1849, and in page 7, it was
charged that the master did nut prohibit or prevent in-
tercourse between the officers, crew, and female emi-
grants; but that, on the contrary, he allowed uarestrained
intercourse between them. The evidence was that of
one of the young females miscarried on board, and fell a
vicitn to the ill-treatment to which she had been sub-
jected, and that another of them was now pursuing a
Ifs of prostitut.on upon the streets of Sydney. Another.
who had waited on the captain, was also in a state of
prostitution, although not yet publicly so. Tt.e Com-
mittee then ad), that the charges were clearly proved, and
recommended that gratuities, which had been established
as an encouragement for proper care of the emigrants,
should be withheld from those parties who had miscon-
ducted themselves. The matter was one of grew import-
ance, and he (Lord Mountcashell) had still to learn whe-
ther any proper inquiry had teen made into it. If the pa-
pers for which he moved were laid on their Lordships'
table, they might then get some blot-Illation on the
subject. He considered it due to their Lordships that
they should be granted, so that their Lordships might
deliberately read them; and, above all, that it was due
to the public that they should be laid on the table, that
it might be seen who were really the off•nders in charges
so grave, and that the matter was not kept in the dark.
He asked fur those returns as a protection to the people,
and as a safeguard to emigrants, who trusted for pro-
tection to the promises of the Government—promises,
he regretted to say, which appeared not to have been
performed. The public, he repeated, would expect
those papers to be furnished, and he hoped th e Noble
Earl would not withhold them. The Noble. Earl then
a lvertei to the Equestrian emigrant ship, and said that
some of his charges with respect to the bad meat ship-
ped on board the emigrant vessels at Liverpool had been
complained cf. He did trot mention names whoa he
made those charges, but Alessr!. Powell and Sonia
of the City, took offence, and called on him, and staid
that they had purchased 900 tierces of meat, but
not to put on hoard the emigrant ships, and that
they had it to suit different parties. He repeated,
witnout naming parties, that bad meat was pur-
chased at Liverpool for shipping purposes. On board
the ship Ratelais several females bad been cruelly
flogged. He mentioned their names, and if they gave
him a Select Committee he would establish beyond
doubt the fact of the cruel treatment to which they
were subjected. The voyage was characterised by de-
moralization, bestiality, and brutality, to as great an
extent as in other vessels which he had before alluded
to. The Noble Lord produced the rope with which
the females had been flogged on their bare backs. Was
nut that proof, he asked, of the indignity to which they
bad been subjected? lie could produce witnesses who
would swear that with that identical rope the backs of
unfortunate female emigrants were severely flogged.
He trusted the Government would take such measures
as would prevent a repetition of those revolting and un-
pardonable occurrences. As a remedy fur the evils
which he sought to have corrected, he suggested *at
greater precaution should be adopted in the selection of
the surgeons—that married men ought in all possible
cases to be selected—that the se iuction of women on
board ship shall be met by summary punishment, and
that in the event of the matron miscunducting herself, it
shall be competent for the passengers to select one from
among themselves. The Noble Earl also suggested that
a system of medals should be adopted for the surgeons,
and he concluded by expressing a confident hope that
the Colonial Secretary would put an end to the abuses
which had been so long suffered to exist.
Earl GREY said that inasmuch as no practical object
could be effected by the production of the minutes of the
proceedings instituted regarding the character and con.
duct of the surgeon, superintendent, master, and officers
of the ship Sobraou, he should not eonsent to that pert
of the motion. No doubt the conduct pursued on board
that vessel had been most lamentable arid disgraceful;
but when the Sobraon arrived at Sydney the case was
fully inquired into, the evidence taken was published, and
the charterer cf the vessel mulcted in 5001. If the minutes
were republiihed they would be so much waste paper,
and no person would ever think of looking into them
except the Nob.e LOrd hicneel‘; hut he could have access
t all the documents in the Colonial-office connected
with the case as long as he pleased. He did not see why
the public should be put to the expense for the Parlia-
mentary publication of useless documents. With regard
to the subject of general emigration, he considered that
the Noble Earl, by turning too willing an ear to the
statements of, perhaps, interested parties, bad suffered
i.itpoelf to be misinformed and misled. Some of his state-
,