The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-31 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, JULY 3l, 1850.

called a locus penitentice for Baron lothschild on this
occasion.—(Laughter.) He (Sir F. Thesiger) had
merely risen to make the explanatim which he had
given to the House.
Sir GEORGE GREY explained tlat Mr. O'Connell
distinctly refused to take the oath of stpremacy, and the
House resolved that he was not entitled to take his seat
without taking that oath. The Spe aktr having informed
Mr. O'Connell of the resolution of the House, Mr.
O'Connell asked to see the oath, and le said he declined
to take it because A contained two prepositions which he
believed to be untrue.
Mr. ROEBUCK said all he knewfrom the Hon. and
Learned Member for Oxford was Oa; Baron Rothschild
refused to take the words on " the true faith
of a Christian." That did not implythat Baron Roths-
child had refused to take the oath.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY, amidst stouts of " Oh, oh,"
said if tbis was a judicial question. and if this House was
to be the judge of it, it required tut the learning of a
lawyer, but 'the sound sense of an individual to form an
opinion upon it. After listening to ;his debate for three
days he had come to the conelusisn that the question
whether the House was to admit Baran Rothschild to take
his seat or not was virtually decided ty last night's debate.
This was not a party question, but it was one in which
each of them would reel himself called upon to act the
part of a magistrate. He entertaited an opinion that
the time was gone by when this Rouse could persuade
the country that a constituency likt the city of Landon
was not able to judge for itself. Ile trusted that the
House would not stultify itself bs proclaiming to the
world, and to the city of London in particular, that they
would not accept the men whom they had chosen, and
by requiring them to go through the farce of a third
election.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked the House to come
to some decision as to the course of proceedings. If the
Hon. Member for Oxford, who represented the Hon.
Member for London in that Rouse, thought some delay
advisable before proceeding to a division, he should pro-
pose thet they should adjourn unti six o'clock.
Mr. P. WOOD said that as hs understood that. it
was the desire of many Hon. Members to speak, he
should move that the debate should Adjourn until to night
at six.

Mr. DISRAELI—As it appeared to be the general
feeling of the. House that the question was narrowed
to the point whether they should repeal an Act of Par-
liament or not, perhepsit would he requisite to allow some
further time for cons:del-alit:ie. He would remind the
Noble Lord that the Irish Franchise Bill stood for to•
night. He would propose to adjourn until to-morrow.—
(Cries of " No, no, " Divide, divide.") He would
propose, then, that they should go on with the Irish
Franchise Bill at six o'clock.
Mr. P. WOOD said, that having consulted with Hon.
Members, he should be pet fectly ready to go on with
the division.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that he wished to state how
it was that he had not spoken on this question.—(Cries
of Ob, oh.") He was ono of those who took a com-
mon sense vitev of the question, and he did not intend
to have his judgment perverted by the quibbles of
lawyers or tin equtvoctl conduct of the Prime Minister.
What was the course of proceeding by the Government?
The Attorney-General moved that Baron Rothschild
should be heard at the bar of-the House by counsel, but
the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rues-11) got up and toll the
House, after the Baron had been pus to great ex-
pense in retaining counsel, and after he had raise'
the expectation cf the electors of the city of London,
that it was true he had agreed to hearing the Hon.
Member by counsel, but his mind v.aa made up on the
question, and that whatever counsel might say be
would csll on his supporters and other Honourable
Members to vote agestist the admission of the Ho-
nourable Member.. They were told that this was a
judicial question, but they knew very well, from the
eoturse of proceeding by the Government, that it was not
a judicial question, but had been made by them a party
question.—(No, and Hear, hear.) It was no use tempo-
riling with the question, and ho would tell the House
Het did so that it would engage in a conflict with tale
eit.r:his of London, out of which it could only comewith
diSappointreent and disgrace.—(flear.)
lord Jr. RUSSELL rose to explain. His Hon. Friend
the Attorney-General stated, on the occasion referred
to' by the honourable Meenbtr, that he would follow
the precedent in the case of O'Connell, and pro-
pose that Baron Rothschild should be heard by
bihesclf, or by counsel or agent. Then the Learned
Gimtlemen the Member for the city of Oxford, said he
was authorised by Baron Rothschild to state that he did
not wish to be heard by Counsel.--e(Hear, hear.) That
having been declared, a debate ensued in which the
Honourable, Member f..r Middlesex declared very
stroegly his opinion on the whole question.—(Hear)—
and such being the case, he considered himself as well
entitled as any other Member to state his opinion to the
House.—(Cheers.) Ho accordingly did so, observing at
the same time that he thought this was a judicial ques-
tion, but he certainly did not wish to influence any
member of the Cabinet, or any other Member of the
House in the decision of the question.—(Hear.)
Mr..STANFORD rose- amidst lend cries. of "Oh "
and other marks of disapprobation; for the purpose of
supporting, the adjournment of the debate. He hoped
the House would not prejudge the question, and that he
would have an opportUnity of considering its whole
bearings before he was compelled to record his vote.
Strangers were then order to withdraw and the House
divided, when there appeared—
, For Mr. P. Wood's amendment ... 117
Against it ... 221
Majority ageiast the amendment, 104
On our return ro thb giltery we found !
Lord J. RUSSEtt stating that he did not think
the House would be justified, without further authority,lin
saying that Baron Rothschild had refused to take the oaths.
Ile thought the House ought to have time to deliberate
upon the question, whether either an Act of Parliament
or the precedent and usages of the House made it neces-
sary and iucumbent upon them to proceed immediately
to issue tho writ. Ho was anxious that the
. House should take the utmost time to deliberate upon
that point, and he therefore hoped his Hon. and Learned
Friend the Mein'eer for Abingdon would not press hie
motion now, but either withdraw it or adjourn it to some
future day.—(Hear.)
Sir I`.' THESIGER was extremely anxious to leans
the matter entirely in the hands of the Noble Lord.—
(Opposition cheers.) He meant precisely what he said.
--,(Cheers.) It was a question which concerned the pri-
vileges of the House, and he thought it was peculiarly a
matter for the Noble Lord to decide what course they
ought to adopt: Of course he was not as well versed in the
rules and forms of the. House as the Noble Lord, and
being desirous to proceed with due caution, he was
anxious to receive the instructions of the Noble Lord—
(Cheers)—as to the proper course to be adopted.—
(Hear, hear.) Ho bad no desire to hurry this
matter on, he was only anxious, inasmuch
as they were now in a position which placed them
in a difficulty as to the proper mode of proceeding,
that there- should be every opportunity afforded the
Hoeise to consider the question ; and he could,
of Coarse, have no objection to adopt the sugges-
tion of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) With respect
to the question as to the refusal of Baron Rothschild to
take the oath, if it was required. by the House that they
should have more distinct information on the subject,
be wan ready to accede to it, because his object
was to establish a prteadeat for the future con-
udturnetostoifmptohretanlcloouthseah;
wt
yo
theh lynde journals
du i
rt
nv:i as s ,
shtonaelrdefboere,faollf
and
complete upon the subject.—(Cheers.)
, Mr. H UM.E said, the Hon. and Learned Member
totbe .demonstrationhtHeonlihowanoroi
dfuer applause
deal
Learned
andntiheadee
its favour of his conduct,
Learned Member leave everything in the hands of the
division
vdi
ic)na Learneda
d negativeGen tl Gentleman was
mo-
tion.—(Hear, a 8
seamedN b wonderl
e at'
Lordturtpharaitts e?tidrsaWtt,
Member step forward and interfere with the Noble Lord?
House quite inconsistent with his practice, and be hoped the
opfrocthegedlituona.
e speech
w ould
hear.)
Mr. V. mall said this was a question for the
House of Commons, and not for the Ministers to decide.
He was surprised at the Hon. and Learned Gentleman'
opposite talking about caution, when he had been so
rash as to propose a resolution which the Rouse could not
adopt; nay, it actually stated what was not the fact,
for it was untrue that the Baron Lionel de Rothschild
had refused to take the oaths.—(Cheers.) If any ad-
journment took place, be hoped it would be for the pur-
pose of ultimately having a Committee to consider the
law of the subject:-Hear.) _
Sir R. H. INGLIS denied that the resolution of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon contained that
which was untrue, nor had the Hon. and Learned
Member been at all rash and precipitate in his conduct.
—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Northampton' had said that the Hon. Member for
the city of London had taken the oath, and if the
Right Honourable Gentleman limited himself to
the word oath, he was justified in saying so,
but the Hon. Member for the city of London had not
taken the oath, which was the whole point at issue. The
Hon. Gentleman had taken an oath, but not the oath.—.
(Cheers.) Supposing the Hon. Member had omitted clause
3,4, or 5 of the oath, would the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Northampton then say that the Baron
de Rothschild had taken the oath ?—(Cheers.) There-
fore, then, he contended that the motion of his Hon. and
Learned Friend was not premature, was not at all ill-
advised,-and affirmed nothing but that which was obli-
gatory upon every one of them.—(Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the debate be
adjourned to twelve o'clock on Thursday next. His
Hon. and. Learned Friend the Attorney-General would
then propose such a resolution, or resolutions, as his
Host. and Learned Friend and himself (Lord John Rus-
sell) should have conceived the dignity and the usage of
the House required.
Sir F. THESIGER seconded the motion.
Sir B. HALL said, whatever resolution the Govern-
ment might propose on Thursday next, he, for one,
should insist that the motion of the Hon. and Learned

Member for Abingdon should be affirmed or negatived
by the House.—(Cheers.)
Mr. P. WOOD said, as any resolution the Govern-
ment might propose on Thursday would be in the shape
of an amendment to the motion of the Lion. and Learned
Member for Abingdon, he did not see why tho House
should not dispose of the motion of the Hon. and
Learned Mernb-r for Abingdon.
Mr. ROEBUCK reminded the house what they were
wg oeinreg b teo doforethbey
iaidojuo.,uer,nuinnfi.
ihTahoonrleyaldfaocutbstotw'
athsisabcoauset
the conclusion from those Leo.
Mr. HUME thought that if the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) meant to act fairly on this questiou, the motion
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Abingdon should
be disposed.of or withdrawn.
Af,er a few words from M. ANSTEY,
I'dr. A( LIO:.:; BY asked the Government if they were
o i n g •t b
ficorciairt:ihnendun
odium t 2
of pry the Fie9e cc::-
tag to a decision on the !notion' of the lion. and Learned
ember
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied that he thought it

far better to adjourn the debate until Thursday than to
come to any hasty decision on the motion before it. As to
any odium he might incur, he did Rot think it would be
wise for the First Minister of the Crown to be very
sensitive on that point,—(Lsuglater.) He doubted it
was part of his fate to incur odium, but he should seek
to avoid it as much as possible.
The gallery was then cleared, but no division took
pl:cf.. On entering we found

Sir F. THESIG.EIt expressing his willingnem to with-
draw his resolution, or to have it negatived ; but the
House mu•t understand that it was solely on the ground
fiat he might not interfere with the Government reso-
lution.

Sir F. Tile3iger's motion was then put and nega.
tired without a division.

In ierly to a question from Sir B. BALL, '....___

The -A:TTOTiNEY-GENERAL said that it would
not be possible for him to lay his resolution on the table
bef )re Thursday.

Mr. ANSTEY complained of this delay.
Thy debate was then adjourned until Thursday.
Mr. DISRAELI suggested that Hon. Members who
had notices of motion on the paper should allow the
Government to proceed with the Irish Franchise Bill
this evening.
Lord J. RUSSELL expressed his willingness to com-
ply with the suggestion.

- Mr. P. SCRO-Pb said that he would willingly postpone
his motion if it were the wish of the House.
The House then adjourned at a quarter after four
until hilf-pazt six.

The House resumed at Half-past Six, when
Colonel DUNNE postponed his motion relative to the
growth of tobacco in Ireland.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS' (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day being read for considering the
Lords' amendments on the Parliamentary Voters (Re-
lent!) Bill,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose and proposed, "On
consideration of Lords' amendments to Parliamentary
Voters, &c. (Ireland) Bill, clause 1, page 2, line 8, to
amend Lords' amendments, by inserting the word
' twelve,' instead of fifteen.' To agree to Lords' amend-
metes omitting clause 2of Commons' Bill. To disagree
to Lords' amendments omitting clauses 18, 19, and 21, of
Commons' Bill." Before he made the motion he was
anxious to state the general view which her Majesty's
Government took of the amendments which bad been
made in the Bill, and also as it stood now in being sent
down by the Lords. The House was well aware of the
extreme case which existed on this subject is Ireland—
a case which shoWed, that while they had iu England a
per tentage of registered electors in proportion to the
male p ipulation, of 8 per cent., in Wales 32 per cent., in
Sco:laad 25 per cent., in Ireland the proportion was less
than 2 per cent.—(Hear.) Without entering into fur-
thrr statistics the House would are a strong example of
the gPeat decrease of the number of electors in Ireland,
and if any further proof were wanting it would be seen
in Alayo—s, large and populous county—where, at the
elec ion which had just Germinated, less than 250 voters
voted for the two candida'es.—(Hear, hear.) What her
Mejesty's Government proposed on the subject of elec-
tor; was to change the present system cf voting alto•
gather, and the tenure on which it was fiundcd, into an
occupation franchise. He far ono thought that Hon.
Gcnilereen, who discussed this subject, were opt to lose
sight oF the fact that the practice in England generally
was the 40s. freehold franchise: It was no doubt very
common to talk of the SQL (=caption, which existed,
and to say that an 81. .franchise in Ireland was mueh too
'tow, but in point of fact, the franchise in England ge-
nerally was the forty-shilling freehold, and to show that
such was the case, he should cal the attention of the
House to the relative proportions of that franchise as
compared with the 50/. in several of the counties. In
Berkshire the number of those possessing the 40s. free-
hold wes 3,274 and of 50/., 853. In Herefordshire, of
40e., 5,280; of 501., 1,639. Lancashire, 16,064; of 501.,
3,457. Middlesex, 10,418 40i. freeholders, 1,317 SQL;
and in Sussex, 3,769 403. freeholder; and 1,059 of
those who posseis a 501. qualification. It was
quite clear; therefore, that the great bulk of the
voters in the English counties were persons possessed of
the 40a franchile—a species of -qualification, as the
House well knew, abolished in It eland several years ago,
and was now completely extioguished. It was, there-
fore, prop ised that the great bulk of electors in counties
in that country should be occupiers rated to the relief
of toe poor, and the first question of great importance
which arose on• the amendment cf the Lords was the
amount of that rated occupation. They proposed, and
it was acceded to by the House, that it should be an 8/.
rating, but it was altered in the House cf Lords and
raised to 15/. The number of tenants rated at 8/ would
be 330,223,-alereas the number-at 1.51. would be 180,000,
anti if they dedaeted,ontorifth, which was the usual pro
portion for double occupation and tenements inhabited
by female; the number at 81 would be 264,000, and at
15/. 144,000. It appeared, therefore, that the amend-
ments made by the Lords struck out no less than 120,000
voters out of 264,000 to whom that House accorded the
right to vote. That amendment, however, appeared to
him to reduce the number in a far greater degree than
was in accordance with justice; it was, in point of
fact, reducing the proportion of Irish voters as com-
pared with English much smaller than it ought to
be. He (Lord J. Russell) proposed in some measure
to remedy that great deftet; he proposed to take 121.
instead of 151., which would give 172,000 voters instead
of 144,000. The propesition originally adopted was in
the proportion of 15 per cent. to the male population,
the amendment in the Lords made it but 8 per cent.
wed the proposal he was now about to make of a 121:
!sting would make it about 10 per cent. He (Lord J.
Resell) thought that if the rate of voting aas raised
to 15/. a question would arise immediately whether the
right of voting by tenure, and especially the ancient
right of the 40s. franchise, should he again resorted to.—
(Cheers.) He wished, however, as soon as possible, to
have such a number as to farm a constituent body, and
on that ground he should propose, instead of the 8/.,
which he yet believed was perfectly reasonable, and of
the 151. proposed by the House of Lords, that in order
to remedy a crying grievance which now existed, to
insert 12/. instead of 15/., which was almost dividing the
difference. There was another alteration made to which
he (Lord J. Russell) attached greater importance, because
the whole principle of the Bill was involved in it. They
might take the rating at 8/, 10/., 12/., or 15/, but- the
main principle and scope of the Bill was, that in-
stead of sending in claims to be registered, as now,
which produced so mach discussion and contention, it
should be a self-acting register, and those on the rate-
books for the relief of the poor should in future be
placed on the list. He thought the adoption of that plan
calculated to put an end to the interference of landlords
or any other persons, and thus have the registry in
future conducted on the simplest scale, and put an end
to many evils—(Hear, hear)—morn especially those
complicated questions which arose at present.—(Hear,
hear.) He, therefore; proposed to disagree altogether with
the amendment made in the Lords on that clause, because,
as he said before, he attached far greater importance
to that, inasmuch as it seemed to him to be entirely con-
trary to the principle of the measure. Whether, as he
already said, the rating was 81. or 12/. was a question
fir argument, but on the principle of the Bill he
felt no doubt of being right, and he should, there-
fore, propose_ to disagree altogether from the
Lords' amendments on that subject. There were parts
altered in the Lords to which he did not feel disposed to
snake any alteratioto although he had not changed his
own opinions, for example, "owners cf tenements" was
inserted, which altered the Bill in some measure, but he
was not disposed to offer any opposition. Another re-
gardineejoint occupiers was one on which a great deal of
discussion took place in that House, and some doubts re-
specting it were entertained, especially by Irish Mem-
bers. That clause was struck oat in the Lords, and he
(Lord John Russell) did not propose to disagree with
thew. Another chine, giving a 5/. freehold, was also
altered in the Lords. isle no doubt considered such a
clause a very important one, because in the sale and sub-
division of land now taking place in Ireland, he believed
it would create a great number of small proprietors,
which was very desirable: the Lords inserted the words
"above all charges" in the clause; but as that was in
some measure conformable with the freehold right
in England, he • would .not insist on that amendment
being rejected. There were a good many amendments
made in the Bill, and in the schedules attached to it,
which were rendered necessary, by the operation of the
Bill being fixed to take place on the Ist of June, 1850.
The whole effect of those amendments would be that the
registry would commence on the 9th of September,
1850, and be completed on the 15th of March, 1851, and
after that period it would commence in each year on
the lit of June, and end on the Ist of November.
These were the amendments sonde by the House
of Lords, and he had stated his intentions respecting
them. With respect to that now under consideration,
he proposed that the House should agree, and they
could then proceed with a consideration Qf the next in
order.

Mr. GASKELL called on the Muse to ask themselves
calmly and gravely if the grounds put forward by the
Noble Lord were sufficient to induce them to refuse the
Bill as altered in the House of Lords. No one
alterations.because
a
denied but that the Bill as returned from that House
would extend the constituency of Ireland, and after they
had scen-the operation of it would be the proper time to
propose
Iledld
wasnot hsoldaltihiet oapaignhiotntath.
beet
merely
constituency
increased.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) He could not
agree in the opinion that that House should pass mea-
sures for the extension of the franchise, without any re-
ference to the character of those to whom the votes were
given—(Hear, hear)—and he was bound to oppose mea-
sures which would give power to those whose principles
would, he believed, lead to the disruption of tall social
ties, and the subversion of every institution in the
country.—(Hear, hear.) On that gronnd he felt it his
duty to oppose such a measure. But there was no doubt
that the Bill, as it had come down from the House of
LDrdA, would give a very large extension of the consti-
tuency in Ireland, and he thought it would, therefore, be
very unreasonable
other House of Parliament was not willing to make such

sweeping alterations as they were. Ile regretted that
th© Noble Lord had not shown a more conciliatory dis-
position in this matter.

Mr. F. FRENCH said he certainly did not concur in
the opinio❑ of the Hon. Member that this Bill would
do much to extend democracy in Ireland. On the con-
trary, its effect would be to render still more insignifi-
cant and feeble the already insignificant constituency
which exists.—(Hear.) His own view of the Bill, even
in its original state, was that it was a disfranchising
measure, and certainly his objections were not les'ened
when be found the 121. proposition would strike off
24,000 voters from the number which ministers on a
calm resolve of the whole subject, decided ought to be
enfranchised. Property in Ireland had fallen, from pe-
culiar circumstances, so low in value that a very large
number of pers,)us who were formerly voters, would wit,
now ha rated eithEr at 121. cr 15/. He was not disposed
to di.franchise those who sent him there; he would
;rather ask the same franchise as we had in England,
403, freehold and all.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE complained that the Hon.
Member had introduced questions which, whether tight
or wrong, had long since been settled, and had no t etre
ing on the immediate question before the House. The
Hon. Member opposite had complained that the Noble
Lord at the he of the Government had not exhibited
a more conciliatory disposition. He must say, that in
expressing his own views, the Hon. Member had shown
a much less conciliatory disposition. 13ut what was the
defect they aere called upon to rernsdy? Every one
admitted the constituency had dwindled away. But it
appeared that even the estimates formed of its actual
amount were far above the truth. In Mayo, the second
largest county in Ireland, the constituency had been
estimated at 591, whereas, at the election just finished,
no more voters than 230 could be brought to the poll.
—(Cheers, and counter cheers.) lie understood the
chosrs of lion. Gentlemea opposite. But he repeated,
that hit firm belief was that in every county in Ireland
there was not Ore half the constituency calculated.
The Hon. Member had talked a great deal about up-
holding the privileges of the House of Lords. He
trusted that he would not forget the House of Commons
hal its priiileges also.—(Bear, hear.) In proposing to
adof t a I'2/. franchise after that House had agreed to an
8/. pialitication, he thought his Noble Friend had shown
every desire to respect the independence of the other
House of Parliament, and at the same time made a
reasonable proposition, which he trusted would be ac-
cepted by :hat House.—(Hear.)
Lerd JOCELYN said, when the measure was before
the House he had stated his opinion in favour of a 121.
franchise, but had strongly objected to the varied end
unecteal valuations on which these rentals were assessed.
The valuation, which was now nearly completed, would,
if generally enforced, remove that inequality, and if his
Right Hun. Friend could state that it would be made the
foundation of the valuation of the franchise, it would
have some weight with him as to the vote ho should give,
as well as other lion. Members.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that by the law as it
now stood he believed the poor.law valuation wou Id ne-
cessarily form the foundation of other assessments. At
all events, he could asaure his Noble Friend that the
matter had received, and would continue to receive, the
anxious consideration of the Government.
Mr. MOORE said the state of the Opposition benches
of that House showed very significantly that this was not
a mere Irish question.—(Hear, hear.) Ireland was
chosen as the great b ittle field of party. He had no
taith in the party on either side. First of all the Noble
Lord had been suddenly smitten with a deep sense of the
degraded state of the Irish franchise. IV ny, any time
for the last six years that degradation might have struck
him, and during that time the Irish Members would
have gladly aided him to pass any reasonable measure.
—(Hear, hear.) What was the reason why the Whigs,
who had been so long playing at Tories—(Hear, and a
laugh)—should co suddenly have discovered the ne-
cessity for extending the franchise? Why did Paul
appear among the prophets? It was because the trumpet
of protection had been sounded across the Chan-
nel.— (Hear, hear.) It was not until the cruiser was in
sight that the masters proposed to arm the slaver. He
might be wrong in these suspicious.—(" Hear," from
Lord John Russell, followed by laughter.) Well, if he
was areng, it was easy fo the Noble Lord to set him
right. Let him pledge himself to introduce another Bill
for the reform of the Irish frenchise, at least as tiberal
as that he had brought in this year. Legit him pledge
himself honestly, earnestly, and strenuously to bring
to the aid of that measure nil his official influence—such,
for instance, as he exetchted in the case of the African
Equadron.—(llear, hear.) If the Noble Lord would do
thet, he would pledge himself that the Irish Members
would give him oil the ail in their power. The Noble
Lord was silent. If the Noble Lord would not do that,
he for one would not lift a finger to tight any more
pars) -, party battle for the Noble Lerel.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") On the other hand, Honourable Gentlemen
opposite, by their conduct on the question, had re-
newed the battle betierea their party and the people of
Ireland. He warred them that in the end that must be
fatal to them.—(Hear, hear.) As to the fears expressed
of the results of an'extension of the suffrage in Ireland,
he spoke from considerable experience when be said that
mob law and mob dictation were the result of a narrow,
not an extended franchise. Let thorn imagine the posi-
tion of 1,000 voters spread over a large county. There
might be only ten cr twelve in a single district. These
might be taken up to the poll under the protection of the
co7lstabulary, and back again to their homes, but the
moment they were left there, tt cy might as a ell be
placed among a pack of wolves.—(Hear, hear, and a
laugh.) Why was this? Because the voters were not a
large enough body to protect themselves, and because
the others were excited by their exclusion from the
franchise.
Colonel DUNNE would vote with the Noble Lord for
the rs.ciuction of the qualification from 131. to 121. He
believed there would be no objection to the view taken
by the Noble Lord in respect to the other amendments
male by the Lords—namely, that relating to joint oc-
cupancy; but be also believed that the machinery of the
Bill, in reference to the self-acting registration clause,
the third amendment of tho Lords, would be most pre-
judicial to its successful operation.
Colonel RAWDON said that the Bill had been treated
with injustice by the other House.
Mr. CLEMENTS said he would support the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord, the First Lord of the Treasury.
Mr. ANSTEY said that although he supported the
Noble Lord's proposition, he did so with considerable
regret, because he thought the franchise of Ireland was
miserably low, and this 121. franchise would not place it
in the position in which it ought to stand. He would
himself, on a future occasion, bring in a measure to in-
crease the franchise in Ireland, England, and Scotland.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD would vote for the
proposition of the Noble Lord as a matter of necessity,
but he entered his protest against the proposed franchise
being considered as that to which the Irish people were
entitled.
Mr. SCULLY also supported the proposition of the
Government with great regret, because it was not equal
to the requirements of the Bill.
Mr. BRIGHT said, if he understood it aright, this
was the measure of the session, and they were soon to part
without having passed any Act of great public utility but
this. It was a sorry account that the Government would
have to render to the public for the time that had been
occupied by Parliament in its deliberations. With re-
gard to this particular measure, no man could say that
the Government had grappled with the representation
of Ireland before it was absolutely necessary; because,
with a population of eight millions, living under the
same constitution as ourselves, there was scarcely any
representation whatever amongst them. In bringing
forward the 81. franchise the Noble Lord de-
fended that measure on grounds perfectly satisfactory
to him (Mr. Bright), and if his intention had been
spoiled by what had taken place in the House of Lords,
the Noble Lord was still responsible for what had taken
place there. The conduct of the Government in the
House of Lords had been completely different from what
it had been in the Commons, and it would seem from
all that had taken place there, that the Government in-
tended it not to be an eight-pound franchise Bill, but
that that amount should be altered by the Lords. The
principle of the eight-pound franchise had been affirmed
by increasing majorities of their own Houseoand if the
majorities and minorities of both Houses were added to-
gether, it would upper that that principle had been car-
ried by a total majority of 47.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He know that Hon. Members were not used
to that sort of arithmetic, but this he would say that in a
matter effecting the elective franchise of the House of
Commons, the votes of the House of Commons were
more entitled to regard than those of the other branch
of the Legislature.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Crown
was also in favour 01 an eight-pound franchise; and if
the Crown and the House of Commons had approved of
this step, it was doubly incumbent on the Noble Lord,
as the Minister of the Crown, to have seen that it was
carried, and he ought to have been cautious how he al-
lowed a small majority, of a small House, sitting in
another place, to override the measures of the other
estate of the country.—(Cheers.) Thu Lords would
have carried the franchise higher than 15/. if they dared,
and the Noble Lord knowing their designs that way,
ought to have stood manfully by it, and have preserved
it in its integrity. The Noble Lord was a great man
for constitntions, and one of his chief objects was to
work this House in harmony with the House of Lords.
He bad undertaken a hopeless task. That very day
they had been engaged in the discussion of a subject
which gave them an obvious specimen of the dead lock
at which the two Houses were now arriving.—(Hear. and
cheers.) The House of Commons and the Ministry
were treated with contempt, but the Noble Lord per-
sisted in ripening the pear, and in " bombarding" the
Lords with good measures, as he believed the phrase
was before 1841—(A laugh)—and in paring down
every measure which ho believed necessary for the good
of the country, till it passed through the gauge which
might please the House of Lords. (Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord's constitution would not work.
In this conjuncture of affairs the course which the
Noble Lord ought to take was to state at the beginning
of the session, in introducing the single measure of un-
doubted utility, which he would now be able to pass in
a session, that he intended that it should bo passed in
the form substantially in which it was introduced. The
course which at present ho was pursuing was humiliat-
ing to the House and destructive to the Noble Lord's
Government, besides which, it kept those back who were
sitting on the Liberal side of the House from advancing
measures which they were sent there to support. Their
safest policy in Ireland was the most generous policy.—
(Hear, hear.) They had tried other policies there for
centuries, and there was now no spectacle
so humiliat-
ing as that to which Ireland had been reduced by the
rule of the " territorial system." Generosity and
justice was the remedy which they never yet had tried,
and at was the ono they were now voting against,
apparently because they were afraid of having
a hundred gentlemen there to represent truly the
territory of Ireland. If the 121. franchise were now
taken and the terms he proposed, I
he trusted that in the
course of one or two sessions the Noble Laid would find
himself forced to propose the extension of the tiariehise
contemplated by this Bill when it left them. Of this,
at least, he was convinced, that a liberal and generous
policy toward Ireland was the only one which could bring
them from the leaders whom they said !sail misled them.
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho felt sorry to have to ad-
dress the House on the topics to which the Honourable
Member for Manchester had adverted, but he could not

altogether avoid doing so; f.)r the Hon. Gentleman, not
confining himself to this Bill entirely, had thought fit to
lay down propositions which, as he conceived, he thought
tended to disparage the present constitution of this
country, and led to the establishment of some other. But
this was a question which arose for their decision on
some
amendments which had come down from the Lords,
and which it was therefore necessary for them to deal
with on the decisions of that House of Parliament. Tho

lion. Member for. Manchester now proposed, that with
regard to any measure cf the kind in future, the
Minister should state, in introancing it, that he in-
tended it should be carried. Virell,lf the Bill ahOnld hap.
pen to be rejected by the Lords altogether the son.