The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-08 00:00:00

HEAL OF TOWNS BILL.

On the order of the day for OA committal of this
Bill,

The Esrl of LONSDALE moved that the Bill be re-
ftrred to a Select And was
(LEFT SPEAKING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER tQuk the Ceair to-Jay shortly after
Twelve O%A° .k.

The I,,,rds' 4mPndmPnts to the following prirate
Bills were c,,nsider d And a,v,ret,d to :

The Grea. Northern Itzil way (D-viattons, Amendment of
Acv, Aleratton of Tolb, and of East Lincolnshire
Railway
The Waterford ald _TC_lll,...pnny Railway.
THIRD READINGS.

The Nlowing Bill 3 wcre rea t a third time and
pass d:—
The Birkenhead D .ek Trus ees Bill.
The River Dee Cons-rvsney and Improvement Bill.
The Westminster Impn,v• ment
Sir Peter II sketh Fleetwood's E3tite Bill, as
amended, was sgrt.e.i
PETITIONS.

Sir J. Y. BULLER. preteltrd petitions from places
in Devonshire for and against the recent alterations in
the Post-office; also petitions against the Jr
Several petitions against the Jews Bill were pre-
sented from various parts of the country.
Mr. FULLER present-A d petition from a place in
Essex in favour of the recent postal arrsrigements.
Mr. FORSTER presented petitions from places in
Essex against the recent altrrat'ons in the Post-office.
The Hon. Member also gave no ice t.f hie intention, to-
morrow, to present a petition from Lloyd's against the
blereaniile Marine Bill

Mr. CLAY presented a petition from the Chamber of
Commerce of Hull against the Mercantile Marine Bill.
Lord MELGUN I) presented a petition from Grtenuck
in favour of ;h•• Mercantile Marine 13111.

Mr. GROGAN prea-nted a petition fiom the Cham-
ber of Commerce of Dublin iu favour of the Home
made Spirit, in Bond B
Mr. k ORS f ER, in presenting petitions from Royston
and from Witham the non-transmission of letters
ou Sundays, gave riotit!e that to•morrow he should pre-
sent a petition from the underwriters of Lloyd's to the
same t Ect.
MERCANTILE MARINE BILL.
On the motion that the Svaker do :Pate the chair for
the purpose or the House going into Curomitve on the
Mercantile Maria. Bill,

Mr. MOFFA CT, puit-ittant to notice, moved as an
amendment, thst the House should resolve itself into
Commiit-e on the Bill that day six months. As a
mercantile man, he was bound to say that the measure
was viewed with greet suspicion out of doors, and it was
thought by mercantile teen that they had been unfairly
dealt with by her Majesty's Government. For his
own part he thought the Bill unfair and prejudicial
to the shipping interest. He thought that that interest
was entitled to expect after the passing ot the Naviga-
tion-laws &Teal Bill, tint some relief would be given to
them with respect to the restrictions relative to pilotage,
and that they had also reason to complain of the regula-
tions with respect to maening the navy, which restricted
them in the mode ot mannirg their ships, and plic2ed
them in a most disadvantsgous position as regarded
competition with foreigners.—(Hear, hear.) If this
Bill should become law it wound, insteal of ac-
complishirg the objects pr,,tansed, give rise to greater
annoyances end vex.tions than existed under the present
system. The whole machinery by which it was to be
carried into effect wss Very detective. and he believed
had been proposed by the Government on the faith of
One-sided intormation. He doubted very much the pro-
priety of throwing so much responsibility on the Board
of ,'Trade as at present c:instituted. He did not dis-
co:4er throughout the whole Bill a clause which was
more calculated to diminish the evils ot the crimping
system than the existing law, Lie cbaractfrised the Bill
as amounting, in fast, to an indictment against the
shipowners of the kingdom, fur it seemed to be taken
for granted throughout every
°Anse that they were
ratttli of frau iu riot pa) irg the wages of their seamen.
No mention h.d yet been made ot the expanse which the
Mann WOled tatail oa >rhe AiPPLDS liwatot, - Lvcal

boards of examinatior, and shipmasters with a number
of clerks, would have to be appointed at different ports,
and all the expense of maintaining such a staff of offi-
cials would hare to be bort eby the shipowners. A new
system of taxation was to be introduced by the Bill, and
this without the consent ef the shipowners, who were to
be mulcted of a large sum of money for the
purpose of carrying it out. They said, if Par-
liament wished to pass the Bill, that the expense of it
ought to be bone by the Consolidated Fund. The
port cf London was partially opposed to the Bill, but it
was wholly and entirely opposed by the ports of Hull,
Bristol, Dublin, Dundee, Plymouth, Scarborough, North
Shields, Carnarvon, Plymouth, and other ports.
The shipping interest protested loudly against the
Bill, which they said had been passed without
a full and fair inquiry into the merits of the case, and
without their sanction and concurrence, which they be-
lieved was directly opposed to their best interests.
Sir W. CLAY said it was not his intention to trespass
at any length on the attention of the House, but as he
had the honour to represent a borough which consti-
tuted one of the largest ports in the kingdom, it
might naturally be expected that he ought not
to give a silent vote on an important measure of thi,
nature. He did not agree with the Hon. Gentleman
that the Bill was very unpopular among the shipping
interest. Though he could not deny that a large por-
tion of the shipowners in Hull were adverse to
the Bill, but their objections were not so strong
or universal as stated by the Hon. Gentleman.
The majority of the inhabitants of that borough was
largely interested in the prosperity of the mercantile
interest, and if he thought the present Bill was hestile
to that interest no private consideration would induce
him to give it his support; but, on the contrary, be be-
lieved that it would be absolutely impossible to bring
forward any measure which would have a more lesne-
ficial effect than the oee now before the H .use. The
question for the House to consider was, whether the
character of the captains and other officers of the British
mercantile navy was such as to elevate the character of
the first commercial country in the world—whether they
were fit men to bo entrusted with millions of
property and hundreds of thousands of lives? Now
it was quite notorious that these officers were
not men in whom such confidence ought to be reposed.
He contende 1 that the consular returns showed that
the professional character of the masters and captains of
our mercantile marine was by no means of that effi-
cient order which was absolutely necessary, considering
the great amount of property and the number of lives
entrusted to their care. That was owing,
first, to the great extent of our colonial system,
which was carried on under such peculiar circumstances
as to preclude a high order io merit among commanders
of our mercantile marine; secondly, to the enormous
extent during the war of what was called the trans e. t
service, which engaged many hundreds of tons of sh p-
ping; and, thirdly, to the circumstance that most of that
service was carried on by convoys, the speed of which
was regulated, not by the best sailing ship and the
best informed master, but by the worst sailing
ship, commanded by the best informed master.
He supported the Bill because he saw in it
the means of raising the character of the offi-
cers in our mercantile marine. He thought also that the
provisions of the Bill were well adapted to protect the
British :alter, for there could not be a more helpless or
friendless creature than a sailor arriving at a strange
port. The Bill ale, came recommended to his
mind because it provided a tribunal of law for settling
disputes between masters and sailors. For those reasons,
and because he believed that the measure was essentially
necessary, not only for the country at large, but especi-
ally for the shipping interest itself, he would give the
Bill his meet cordial support.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CLAY thought the House was legislating on a
great subject in a very small way. The Bill as it
now stood was greatly altered and improved since
it first came under the consideration of the
House ; but although many of those alterations
had had the effect of conciliating much of the opposition
with which the Bill was at first assailed, yet it was not
wholly unobjectionable to him. He was at a loss to
know why the coasting trade was to be left out of the
Bill altogether. He cordially agreed in that provision
of the Bill which provided for an examination of masters
and mates; but there was a second principle in the Bill,
namely, that which proposed an interference between
shipowners and their sailor', v.ith a view to the protec-
tion of the latter, in which he could not concur, because
it was always in the highest degree dangerous and in-
convenient to intervene between a master and his servant.
A clause introduced into the Act obliging a certain por-
tion of his wages being detained immediately upon ar-
riving in port, would obviate a great many evils
which resulted from his reckless character. With
regard to the Bill, he should have been much
more inclined to refer it to a Select Committee,
because he did not feel that hostility to the entire
Bill as was professed by some Hon. Members. He
thought there was great need of a geaeral consideration
of this subject, and he thought that nothing could be
done without long and careful inquiry; but as it was, he
should certainly vote against the second reading.
Lord JOHN MANNERS had originally intended to
have moved to refer this Bill to a Select Committee,
but his opinion had undergone considerable modification
in consequence of the alterations which had been intro-
duced by the Right Honourable Gentleman. Still
there were many matters of detail conneded with
the measure which would be much better discussed in a
Committee than in the walls of the House of Commons.
The appointment, and the constitution, and the working
of the local boards of examination were matters of this
sort. He was not himself disposed to attach much im-
portance to the statement of the consuls which had been
read to the House, because of course their reports would
be in accordance with the wishes of their Government;
neither was there much force in the fact that during the
time of war merchant captains were most frequently
under the c ,ntrol and direction of men of war captains
convoying them, because he thought that in 30 3 ears of
peace a Lew generation had arisen who were certainly bet-
ter qualified. If Hon. Members were still desirous that the
Bill should be referred to a Select Committee, he was
quite prepared to propose the amendment of which he
had given notice.

Mr. LABOUCHERE was not disposed to quarrel
with the objections which had been raised by Hon.
Memeers against the principle of the Bill, and he was
quite ready to defend it upon the present occasion. It
baJ been said that this Bill was opposed to the wishe,
of the shipp,ng interest, but he could assert with
confidence that such was net the case. The
shipowners of Liverpool, Bristol, and Glasgow, were
warm supporters of the Bill in its principle, and even in
many instanc, s of its details. The shipowners of Lon-
don were certaqily divich d in their opinions, but he
thought it was a remarkable fact that a Bill contem-
plating such great alterations should have met with so
little opposition. Having named constituencies so
powerful, he could name individuals without
number, but he would only select two from
a mass, and those should be two of the largest ship-
owners in the world, most excellent men, and celebrated
ter their efforts on behalf of the sailor—he meant Mr.
Gilmour, of Glasgow, and Mr. Green, of London. He
complains d ef the extraneous points which had been in-
troduced into the di-cussion, and the Honourable
Memeer fur Hull, fur instance, had ta'ked of some
tnete-ure which had been introduced respect-
ing lightteg does. Why, the measure which had
bs en introduced by the Government had had the effect of
reducing the lighting (lure exactly one- ball, a boon which
was thankfully re:eived by the whole coasting trade.
He admitted thst the Bill was in some degree
a Bill of interference, but he would just point
out the objects of the contemplated interference.
There were three great objects embraced by this Bill—
first, to provide for the examination before competent
authorities of mariners before they were allowed to take
the command of ships; secondly, to deoprive every cap-
tain of his certificate who should in any way misconduct
himself. He denied that he had made a charge against
the masters in the merchant service of wholesale in-
cspacity ; but he did say that great and gross
abuses exisu d in the service, which this Bill was in-
tended to cheek. The next part of the Bill bad given
rise to mere diff!recc4 of opinion; it related to the es-
tablishment of recognised shipping officers, and he urged
that principle upon the House because he believed it
would not only pi otect the hard-working sailor
from fraud, but also confer large benefits
upon the employer. No doubt it would give rise to
expense; but was the present system carried on without
expense? Certainly not. The merchant and owner
had to pay large sums to licensed shipping
agents. and all he proposed to do by this
part of the Bill was to establish a uniform
rata of fie s to be paid to properly qualified and
public agents, whose appointment should be entrusted
to the Crown. The fee to be paid on the shipment of
each sailor would be 2s. In America it was a dollar,
while in Quo ls,c the lee was 5,., and he therefore thought
the tee he bad fixed upon t
and proper discipline in theextravagant. The
last object of the Bill wasw .s not,
intended to secure strict
extremely ds fective, tending, as i presenthant
theservice.
discipline N
waso
t did, to encourage de-
sertion on the part of the sailors,
and jeopardise the
theroefey d fo
ship, his part of the
Bp rioi
ap,e
trhteynotptrhoe ownervideda remedy
state of things,
i sbieo
nso
f
and when they got into Committee heshould
pre-
pared to still further justify the details and prov
the measure. Without, therefore, troubling tberHouse
fur-
ther on the Bill itself, he would pass to the questionwlac
had been raised iu the course of this debate of consoli-
dating all the Acts that composed the merchant law of this
country. Now that was at the present moment an im-
possibility; but pass this Bill, and be would undertake
to lay on the table, or extensively promulgate, a Bill
for consolidating all the laws. It would be his aim
to endeavour t,.) amend and consolidate the law at the
same time, but until this mea-ure had been fairly tested
it would be impossible to accomplish either,
obeyeeoxrPethrieneocjier. In the early part of this discnssion some
obj.ction was taken to the Bill, on the ground that it would
confer a large additional amount of patronage. Now he
bad amended that part of the measure, and as it now
stood the appointments to be made under the
Bill would be vested in local authorities. He
therefore hoped, now that all objections had been
met, no more time would be lint in passing this
Bill, which could not do otherwise than confer large
benefits upon the shipping interest of this country.
Mr. HERMES said it was a mistake to suppose that
the opposition was averse to the principle of the Bill,
for no, side of the House, no party could object to a
measure which had tor its aim the improvement of the
mercantile merine of this country; but the question
was, did this Bill attain that end? He, for one, cer-
tainly did not think it did, nor did he believe thst the
majority of the shipping interest entertained a
favourable opinion towards the measure. No doubt
some ports did approve of it, but by no
means all, or even a fair
.proportion of them.
The great objection which he entertained to the Bill bad
refererce to what look place last session. When the
navigation-laws were repealed the Government pro-
raised to relive the ohipptvg isttereDt of s ou buNess

which pressed upon them, and which prevented them en-
tering into an unrestricted competition with the foreigner,
but by this Bill they imposed still more onerous condi-
tions on that interest. The measure involved so many
conflicting questions, and would give rise to such im-
portant consequences, that he would suggest that ample
time should be given to those who would be affected
by it, to consider the propriety of passing such a
measure before it became law. There was no pressing
urgency for legislation on the subject, and though he did
not object to the House going into Committee, with the
view of considering the provisions of the Bill, he thought
it would be much better to delay proceeding with it
further this session.—(Hear, hear.) Let them make
the Bill as perfect as they could by deliberations in
the House, and then give ample time, as he apprehended
they must, to the shipping interests to consider its pro-
visions, and if they did so, he considered they would
have a much better measure than the one now before
the House.

Mr. CARDWELL said, the question for the House
to decide was whether they should or should not
pass the Bill in its present state this session.
He was one who should give his decided support to the
measure, which he s.td had been very much altered since
it was first introduced last session. Although he enter-
tained strong opinions on several subjects which had
b -en excluded from the Bill, yet he would give
the motion for going into Committee his sup-
port, being anxious that all useful and im-
port int measures should be passed this session, and
reserve to himself the right of making such alterations
as he thought necessary in Committee.
Mr. M ACGREGOR supported the Bill, observing that
if a Bid of this kind had been passed 50 years ago
half cf the shipwrecks and property, and lives, which
had been lost during that period by the neglect or in-
competence of stamen, would have been saved to the
country'.

Mr. MOFFAT r withdrew his amendment.
The Hothe then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment of Lord Jubn Manners,
far referring the B►ll to a Select Committee 34
Against it
Majority
The amendment was consequently 104 t.
Mr. WAWA objected to the restrictions contained in
the Bill as vexatiou', and expressed his deep regret that
the Government by this Bill had held out no expectation
to the British shipowner that he would be placed in a
condition in which he should be enabled to compete
with the foreign shipowner.
The House then went into Committee pro Jorma on
the Bill.

...... _____
The House resumed, the Chairman reported progress,
and the House obtained leave to sit again to-morrow at
twelve. _ __ _ _ . .

The House then adjourned until Five o'clock.

The House resumed at Five o'clock.
Mr. THORNELY brought up the Report of the
Committee on Public Petitions.
PE FI PIONS.

Mr. GLYN presented petitions from various places
against the Marriage Bill.
Mr WALPOLE presented petitions from Lewes and
other places in Sussex in favour of the recent alterations
in the Post. office. _ _ _

Mr. GASKELL presented a petition against the Jews
Bill. The Hon. Member stated that he did not concur
in the prayer of the petition.
Mr. PLUMP rRE presented petitions in favour of
the rcent alterations in the Post-office.
Mr. P. WOOD presented petitions from attorneys and
solicitors in various parts of Lancashire in favour of the
Lancashire County Palatine Act.
Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions from various
places in favour of putting an end to Sunday labour in
the Post-office.
Mr. BA NKES presented a petition from Sherbourne,
in Dorset, to the same effect; also a petition from
Corte Castle against the admission of Jews into Par-
liament.
Mr. T. EGERTON presented petitions against Sun-
day labour in the Post-office.
Sir G. GREY presented similar petitions from places
in Northumberland.
Mr. B. DENISON presented similar petitions from
various parts (.f Yorkshire.
Mr. LABOUCHERE presented several petitions in
favour of the Marriage Bill.
. .

Mr. C. 110WARb presented a petition from Car-
lisle against the Jews Bill.
NOTICE OF MOTION.

Lord NA AS gave notice that on the motion for going
into Committee of Supply he ►hould move an Address
to the Throne praying her M,sjesty to take immediate
steps fur establishing steam communication between this
country and the Australian colonies._