The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-16 00:00:00

in conclusion, said, that he should ♦ote for the motion
of his Noble Friend.

Lord HO WICK said he did not know of any occasion
on which he had found so much difficulty in making up
him mind how to vote as upon the present. Ten hours
was no inconsiderable portion of labour, at any trade or
business, for women and children, and when was added
to that the time employed in going to and coming from
that labour, and the hours requisite for meals, a great
inroad was made on every twenty-four.—(Hear, hear.)
On the other hand, while pondering over the truth of
probablyam en d mp
pursuing
stu i
no
gf theth
le%l
igeNoeons
apparently.brsl ee tFwoohrrtideo,n t
hhmwoeiougmghwhet a sn
their
h,ee r
and
soonervery
these things, he could not but reflect that, by supporting
the
loergislalatitoenr
arpepdluiceed
children only, yet indirectly it most certainly applied to
adults—(Hear, hear)—and they would render it prac-
tically impossible for the mill to go on beyond the time
at which those women and children were employed.—
(Hear, hear.) Then if that were true, and the opera-
tives themselves who sought a ten hours' Bill admitted
such would be the result—the remark which had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Manchester, (Mr. M. Gib-
son) was equally true, that if they adopted the limita-
tion of adult labour with regard to factories, it was not
easy to see where that limitation was to stop. The
question was not now whether they would establish a
principle or not. It had gone too far for this.
For whether the House approved the amendment or the
original Bill, it had equally taken on itself to decide
what number of hours people ought to work during the
day. The question was now really reduced to this—
they had found it necessary to interfere by the pressure
of an overruling necessity, in order to declare what
should be the length of labour to which a certain class
of artisans should be subjected—whether it should be
ten or twelve hours. For his (Lord Howick's) part, then,
he could not help saying that ten hours was as much as
that House ought to allow.—(Loud cheers.) He had
fully felt the force of the observations which
had fallen from the Right Honourable Baronet (Sir
J. Graham), but on fairly weighing the good and the
evil the balance of evil appeared to him to be in favour
of a twelve hours' Bill, and therefore he must vote against
it. It had been said that if they took this decision with
respect to factory labour they would be called upon to
go further. He (Lord Howick) was not without fear
that such would be the case ; and they must deal with
it when it arose. The origin of the evils which they
were now attempting to remedy was to be found in the
intense competition which prevailed ; and he agreed with
the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson)
that they would not entirely remove those evils
unless they diminished this competition of labour and
capital, by enlarging the field for employment.—
(Hear, hear.) This was only to be effected by breaking
down those artificial barriers and restrictions by which
labour and capital were now hedged in and confined, and
unless they were prepared to do this, they must be pre-
pared to see that competition become greater and greater.
He feared they could not expect that Parliament would
do this at present, though ultimately he was satisfied
this would be the case.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he
for one would take the only step which could be
applied, not that he looked upon it as approach-
ing to an effectual remedy ; but that until such
could be obtained, he felt bound to assist in any measure
by which it might be hoped to palliate the evil. It cer-
tainly did appear to him that in the absence of a real
remedy, they should at least adopt such checks as were
in their power ; and in that view it was that he was pre-
pared to vote for the measure of the Noble Lord (Ash-
ley) in preference to that of the Government.—(Hear.)
At the same time he must say that this and every other
discussion on the question had made him feel how in-
competent the House was advantageously to deal
with subjects of that nature.—(Hear, hear.) It
was, he thought deserving the consideration of
gentlemen on both sides of the House, whether they
could not meet the difficulty of introducing regulations
for the guidance of certain trades, by contriving some
means by which the parties themselves interested in
those trades might be brought together, and by which
their arrangements might be enforced. It appeared to
him (Lord Howick) they might consider whether
the great trades might not be organised, so that the
interests of both master and man might.be represented
each by its own class, and thus regulations be
made, by mutual understanding of the two
classes, which it appeared to him that Parlia-
ment was unable to do with anything - like advantage.
He was the more impressed with this idea when he saw
the way in which the trades' unions had worked. He
admitted that, in many eases, those unions were dan-
gerous bodies. They had, in fact, flourished and exer-
cised great powers in opposition to the law, but, looking
at the manner in which they had maintained them-
selves, and had exercised their power, he could not but
conclude that they had- originated from a necessity for
organisation which was felt by the trades. themselves:-
(Hear, hear)—and if they were so orgamsed, would it
not be a great advantage to have them, instead of, as
at present, acting as bodies unrecognised by the law, and
frequently exercising their powers by intimidation
—would it not be, he repeated, a great ad-
vantage to see them recognised by the law, and
exercising powers over which, not the working classes
only, but the employers also, should have some powers
of control ?—(Hear, hear.) Such institutions might
afford useful assistance in enforcing the observance of
such regulations as those which they were now called on
to adopt. He admitted that if the Bill passed they would
be establishing a principle for the future regulation of
factories, and of other trades, which they must be pre-
pared to carry further; and he trusted that those gen-
tleman who were more able to come to a practical con-
clusion on this subject than he was, would endeavour to
devise some means by which they might be enabled to
meet the difficulties of this question.—(Cheers.)

Lord SANDON would not enter into any details on this
question. On one point, however, he would observe. Hon.
Gentlemen opposite had no right to say that the existence of
the corn-laws had rendered it necessary to legislate upon this
subject, for in the countries in which no corn-laws existed, or
at least where none existed for any practical purpose—in Russia
and the United States, for instance—they were as much com-
pelled to protect the labouring population by enactments of
this nature as they were in this country. This question
had been brought before the House before the corn-laws
were in existence. The late Sir Robert Peel had
called the attention of the Home to this subject in the year
1815, either before the corn-law had passed, or so immedi-
ately afterwards that it could not have produced any effect;
therefore, whether the corn-laws were right or wrong, it was
impossible for Hon. Gentlemen opposite to contend that the
necessity for resorting to legislation on this subject—that all the
evils of which they complained were caused by the want of a
free trade in corn. He agreed in the views of his Noble Friend
the Member for South Lancashire, and he had every expectation
and hope that their legislation on this subject would be successful.
In fact, the principle was already in operation in many of the
measure
ohiteeimaoimanufacturingrsniutriagebtahy orowteue districts. In Leeds they had never worked
more than eleven hours, while their neighbours were working
twelve hours, and, notwithstanding the intensity of the compe-
tition,
weeks
that had
uethridse
wtte powerok never
ic
hit
of found any
to
take necessitys
ix
mfoonr t resorting
hs
indoing.
to
twelve hours' labour. Surely, if they were able to do this, it
: could not be injurious to others to insist upon them not working
nd ta go ro
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tet
her
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7ould no longer in the power of manufacturers to execute in
They would not be able to execute a large order at once, and
let their factories remain idle during the rest of the year. By
the operation of the Bill the demand for labour would be spread
over the whole year. He admitted that it might produce some
effect upon wages, but he esteemed something more highly
than wages, and he believed that persons with 12s. a week,
provided the hours were comfortable—having, consequently,
no temptation to wander into a public-house—would be far
better off than they would be with 15s. week under the
present system. They would be better fed, better clothed,
and more moral, if they had less labour and only 12s. a
week, than they would be with 16s. a week, if they
were overworked. He had heard it stated that they
would, if they consented to this measure, be obliged to carry
the principle further. But that which they now wanted to
establish in the factories, was already the custom of the country
in all other trades. The manufacturers might taunt the agri-
cultural employers that their labourers were not better fed or
better clothed, but at any rate they were not overworked. If
during the pressure of harvest women and children were em-
ployed in the fields, they went to their labour some hours after
the men, and they were relieved from work some time
before them. The usual hours of labour, except in
harvest time, were from six in the morning till six at night,
and the same were the hours of employment in other trades.
If it should have the effect of limiting the hours of adult la-
bour he should not be sorry for it; and he believed that the
manufacturers would be benefited rather than injured by
making this a ten hours' Bill. He was aware that apprehen-
sions were entertained on the subject. Parties interested in
any measure always entertained exaggerated apprehensions. In
dealing with the tariff they had had to combat the exaggerated
apprehensions of parties who believed their interests would be
affected. Those apprehensions were, be admitted, honestly
entertained, but still they were exaggerated. It would be
better at once to come to a final settlement of the question than
to subject themselves to having it made again a subject of agi-
tation by the labouring population, who were too high-spirited,
too sensible, and too well acquainted with their condition to
suffer their wives and their children to be longer degraded.
He was prepared to vote with his Noble Friend the Member
for Dorsetahire for a ten hours' Bill, as the measure more
likely to put a stop to the agitation than leaving the question
unsettled.—( Hear. )
Mr. BRIGHT would not have trespassed on the House
again after the great length at which he had addressed them
the other night, but, being intimately connected with the
branch of industry which this measure was calculated to affect,
and having passed all his life among the population who would
be affected by this Bill, he hoped the House would admit that
he had;some claim to be heard on the subject. He had listened
to the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire,
with surprise. The Noble Lord had made the same speech, or
something very much like it, upon a former occasion, and he
(Mr. Bright) bad not supposed that any change had taken
place in the Noble Lord's opinions. He thought the Noble
Lord had taken a one-sided view—an unjust view—not inten-
edleaseissiwonhieouf
tionally perhaps, but a view which was not borne out by the
facts—a view which did not correspond with the Factory. In-
thatp e t
House,or' s Re
wouldrt— - a viewbe moawt hpircehj
prejudicial
ieti
the Noble Lord intended to serve. The Right Hon. Baronet,
pre-
sumed, the promoter of that 8.i.1 in that House, should,
ailn to that very vtehrey
he thought, in his speech have given some reason why a new
the Secretary fur the Home Department, who was, he
able to discover any reason why the Factory Bill now
Factory Bill was introduced at all. He confessed he was
in operation operation had failed. He was aware that the Inspectors
had said that it could not be fully carried out.
The only reason why the present Act could not be carried out
was because it could not possibly be applied to a trade so ex-
tensive and intricate as that to which it applied. He was not
one that would venture to say that the manufacturing districts
of this country were a paradise. He believed that there were
in those district evils, very great and serious evils, and he had
been no party to their concealment. But whatever evils did
exist, he maintained that they were evils referable to other
causes than the existence of the factories and long chimneys.
Most of the statements which had been made that night at the
table, by the ,Noble Lord ( Ashley), might be just as
applicable if read with respect to Birmingham, or
this Metropolis, or the northern districts of the country.
But in a population so large as that of Lancashire and York-
shire, where towns were so numerous as almost to touch each
other, all these evils were more observable than in a popula-
tion less densely crowded together. He would prove, from docu-
ments at least as worthy the attention of the House as those
which had been read by the Noble Lord, that what the Noble
Lord bad stated was not the truth with respect to the state of