The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-01 00:00:00

GLASS DUTIES.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX
CHEQUER, the Glass and Vinegar Duties' Bill was
committed pro
.forma.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS.
On the motion for reading the Order of the Day for
going into Committee on the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill,
Captain PECHELL presented a petition from
Brighton against the Bill. .
Mr. M. PHILIPS presented a petition fl-6,.,0he Law
Society of Manchester, praying that a ellg ould be
inserted in the Bill, consolidating the paw!, of certain
of these courts.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBErose to move an instruction to
the Committee to abolish all ecclesiastical courts, and
to transfer the jurisdiction of those courts to civil
tribunals. His object was to take away all jurisdiction
from the ecclesiastical courts, and to put an end to the
caprice and injustice that took place there. To effect
this there could be no doubt that the whole of Doctors'
Commons must be swept away, and that in its place
proper tribunals must be appointed to replace the
mummeries and impositions that not only disgraced the
country, but affected the best interests of religion.
He did not believe that 658 gentlemen calling themselves
reasonable men would attempt to bolster up a system so
inconsistent with reason. He wished to see all the doctors

and proctors who infested Doctors' Commons cast out,
and he for one would be prepared to give them all the
compensation they could prove themselves entitled to. In
all the proceedings which had taken place from 1829,
when the Ecclesiastical Commission was appriinted, in
all the Bills which had been introduced into Parliament

whether by Whigs or by Tories ; they had but pro-
ceeded from bad to worse till they had arrived at the ne
plus ultra of worthlessness in the present matter.—
(Laughter.) He thought that the Learned Civilian
whom he saw opposite (Dr. Nichol!) would be' obliged

to sit down in despair in attempting to improve
the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, for he would find that his

materials were so rotten and so corrupt that he would
be the tinker perplexed, who in curing one hole created
two.:--(Laughter.) It was true the Bill got rid of some
spiritual jurisdictions and offences, such as tithes,
and defamation, 'and smiting in the church-yard—
(Laughter)—which subjected the offender to the loss of
one ear, and if he had not one he was to be branded on
the-cheek with the letter F.—(Laughter.) But that the
health of the souls of her Majesty's subject:
might not be altogether neglected, tiny left behind
such offences as simony, heresy, brawling, blasphemy,
perjury, drunkenness, incest, adultery, fornication, incon-
tinence, and other evil habits—(Laughter)--over which
the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical court was continued.
The jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts over
Church-rites was continued, though the Ecclesiastical
'Commissioners recommended that it should be abolished.
He knew no reason why this jurisdiction should be con-
tinued, except that it occasionally promoted fraud, and that
it brought grist to the mill of the lawyers in Doctors'
Commons. He would give one instance in which the
Rev. Theodore Williams proceeded ag iinst Mr. J. Hall,
and upon which a most absurd decision was given by
Dr. Lushington. It seemed that there was a meeting
in the vestry' for a church-rate, at which the Rev.
Vicar was expected to be present, but he was behind
time, and a motion for adjourning the meeting was car-

'med. He came after this, and no doubt was very angry.
Some dispute took place between him and Mr.
Hail, who said he was a disgrace to his cloth,
for which he was dragged into the ecclesiastical court.

The house would be surprised to hear what the costs
were in that case. The first was an item " for the

soul's health."—(A laugh.) Gentlemen might laugh, but
the words were pro salute aninue.—(Renewed laughter.)
He supposed that• this was something for the soul to
take with it in its travels to tho other world—a sort of

viaticum, he supposed.—(Great laughter.) But the fee
had been transferred from the soul to the stomach.

and Peter had been robbed to pay Paul, or rather to
pay Theodore.—(lncreased laughter.) Well, what was
the next charge ? He did not know very well
what the word meant—it was " Sportulage," 3s. 6d.
—(Loud laughter.) He really could not throw any
light upon the subject. He did not know what the item
meant—whether i t was Sportulage for the clerk, Sportulage
for the court, or Sportulage for the suitors.—(Laughter.)
The Right Hon. Baronet opposite perhaps might explain
the maeaning of these charges ; he did not ask the
reason of them, for there was no reason in them, and he
'would not insult the Right Hon. Gentleman, by asking
him to find a reason.—(Laughter.) He must come now
to the judgment, and ho must say, that he never read
so absurd. a judgment in his life. The judgment
that Mr. James Ball should be excommunicated front the

parish church for ono week of seven days.
the judge said that the words used by the
Rev. Theodore Williams were words of contempt,
and that Mr. Hall spoke under provocation when he
said that Mr. Williams was a disgrace to his cloth, and
he would therefore -order that 304 should be deducted

from the costs—(Hear, hear)—but even after this de-
duction, Mr. Hall's costs amounted to 1801.—(Hear,
hear.) But what was the punishment upon Mr. Hall,
besides the payment of this money? He was to be
shut out for seven days from the parish church,
into which he would never enter if he had a

spark of spirit.—(Hear, hear.) Now, let them look
to•the clasalkoffencea to which the jurisdiction of these
courts extended—drunkenness, idolatry,' fornication,
incontinence, and other-evil practices—(Great laughter)
-;-,for all of which, any of you (said the lion. Gentle-
men) may be liable to be cited to the ecclesiastical
cotirts—(Shouts of laughter)—for all these they were
'fable to be called on to do public penance, and in any
place which the court might appoint—(The laughter
was so great, that it was quite impossible to catch cor-
rectly-the words of the lion. Gentleman)—they might
het:ailed upon to do public penance in the church—(Re-
newed laughter)—and to recant—(Laughter.) Yes, he
was seritinaf they would be obliged to recant.—(Laugh-
ter.) -He was not speaking of imaginary things, for in
the district which he had the honour to represent a wo-
man had lately been obliged to do public penance in the
church, because' she . had spoken, perhaps. too
lightly of the chastity of her sister.—(A laugh.)
The tollowing scene occurred in St. John's;—Rebecca
Cohen, the Jewess, having imputed to Deborah, her sis-
ter, a total want of chastity,a process was commenced -in
the spiritual court of the Bishop of London, and after
about 70/. had been rim up in fee:, Rebecca was allowed
to expiate her- offence by go,ng t) the church in ser-
vice hours, and then and there, before the church-
wardens, overseers, and ministers, recanting. The re-
cantation, was, in fact, a fraud, because, instead
of being done publicly in the church, as had
been ordered, the parties, were let in and out pri-
vately at the vestry-door, and hundreds of persons who
hid heard that this ceremony fur the good R-becca's
soul was to take place, were disapp minted.—(Hear, hear.)
Nell might the paroChial authorities anti the ecclesias-
tical arts be ashamed of such a proceeding ; but that
Ilmire Sought to be more ashamed if it continued its
sanction of courts from which emanated such an amount
of-absurdity. What a hardship was it upon the subject
that this individual had to pay 70/. f-r this proses:. Now,
with regard to the, brawling, whit had happened to Mr.
Theodore Williams within time last few days ? He had
been brought before the bench of Middlesex magistrates
for inciting to a breach of the peace one of his own pa-
rishioners, a respectable freeholder. He certainly- did
not do this in the church-yard, but on the highway.
The House would recollect the language used by
Hall to • Williams : let them now compare it
with that used by Williams to Mr. Smith. .He said

to him " You are a thick-headed fellow," and shook his
fist in ,the complainant's face. The clergyman then,said,
" You are a dirty fellow—you are a shabby fellow—you
are a coward," and he added, " You dare not tight."
On -complainant saying, "If I am a coward, I will meet
you in any spot you please;" the defendant exclaimed,
"What, what, we'll discuss the question, Sir."—(A laugh.)
What was the result ? Why that the magistrates in-
flicted the highest fine which they could impose under
the Police Act,.natnely, 40s. ; so that, in point of fact,
there was one law in the ecclesiastical courts
and another in the civil courts ; whereas 40s.
was the highest fine which cou'd be inflicted i a
the one, 1801 for costs, and seven days' banishment
from church,' could be imposed in the other. Well, then,
were all these offences to remain upon the statute book ?
He had the authority of a Right Rev. Prelate in favour
of his views. A Bill had been introduced into the other
House of ParliAment by the Bishop of Ez©t. r, for the
purpose of putting down incontinency, fbrni-c4l , thy 4
those other evil habits ; proving that ales ; • M, 110
'neglected their duty. and: were not-adeq • ^ 4ppteo
the. immorality of the agen*Bishop might are:hretter
opp.)rtunities of ascertaining the- truth than himself. The
lion. Member was then proceeding to quote the Bill,
when he was interrupted by
The SPEAKER, who stated that, as the Bill was sot
before the House, it could not. be quoted,
,T. DUNCOMBE proceeded—The eeolesitub.
tical courts would.do Well to confine themselves to the
affairs of their own courts. He could not see why
"the courts of assize were not competent to decide
questions that were usually brought before the eccle-
siastical courts. .Such tribunals were founded on com-
trion sense and common justice, and Lord Hale and Lord
Holt had denounced the ecclesiastical courts as
tri-
bunals aukinst gpminpn inst:Cp and egmpion scn§e..-r:
(Hear, hear) .The Hof.. dentleraan concluded by
moving the motion of which be had given notice.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
Dr. NICHOLL said that the principle of the Bill had
been affirmed on the second reading, so far as related to
AU retention...of certain .portions of .ecclesiastical _juris-
diction; but the lion. Geatleman was not satisfied with

that, and wanted to have the ecclesiastical courts abolished

altogether ; but at the end of his speech the Hon. Gen-
tleman said that he was prepared to maintain an eccle-
siastical jurisdiction for the discipline of the clergy. Jt
was absolutely essential for the maintenance of the Este-
Wished Church, that it should possess a criminal jurisdic-
tion. With regard to the case alluded to by the Hon. Gen-
tleman, he begged to remind him that where there were
two litigious persons, a case would be attended with
large costs in any of their courts of equity or common
law ; but the ease alluded to by the Honourable
Gentleman would be put an end to by the Bill, if
the brawling did not take place in the church ; but if it
took place in the church surely the Hon. Gentleman
would not, for decency's sake, wish that there should not
be a means to prevent it. The Hon. Gentleman had
alluded to a Bill brought in by the Bishop of Exeter.
He had never heard of it, and it would not meet with his

approbation if it Caine to that House. The Hon. Gen-
tleman alluded to him as being personally connected
with those courti. Now he had ceased to have any

connexion with them since 1841, and he would not fo'r
t' le future have any interest in them directly or in-
directly. There were two Commissions appointed, the
Real Property Commission and the Ecclesiastical
Courts Cominis,ion. The Real Property Commission
made their report in 1833, and they recommended the
transfer of testamentary matters to the Chancery Court.
Both these reports were afterwards referred to a Select
Committee, before which persons of the highest eminence
were examined, and they arrived at the conclusion
that it was not desirable •to act on the report
of the Real Property Commissioners, and accordingly
Bills had been brought in, both under Lord Grey's Go-
vernment and under the Government of his Right Hon.
Friend. leaving matters of testamentary jurisdiction to
the ecclesiastical courts. He thought, upon the whole,
that the Bill was one of the best which could be devised,
and he heped the motion of the Hon. Gentleman would
be rejected by a large majority.
Sir G. GREY said, that the question had been sub-
stantially decided by the House as stated by the Right
Hon. Gentleman in the second reeding, but as he (Sir
G. Grey) was in the minority on that occasion, he was
not precluded from speaking now.—(Laughter.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman said that a criminal jurisdiction
was absolutely essential to an established church. Be
(Sir G. Grey) did not wish to deprive the ecclesiastical
courts of such j urisdiction with regard to offences against
discipline, but he objected to their retaining the criminal
jurisdiction which the report of the Ecclesiastical Com-
missioners said they ought not to have. He understood
from the Right Hon, -Gentleman that, with regard to
brawling, he intended to repeal the statutes of Edward
VI., and to leave untouched the common-law jurisdic-
tion. With regard to incest and adultery, it appeared
from the report the) ofronces of such description were
brought before court for a series of years,
and they were of opinion that they ought to be abolished
altogether. The Right Hon, Gentleman said that no
Bill which had been introducqstinto that House went the
length of abolishing all the ecclesiastical courts. But
every Bill had proceeded, on the assumption that there
should be only one court to exercise jurisdiction, although
that court should be one which exercised the jurisdic-
tion which now belonged to the ecclesiastiCal courts.
They had now the option either of abolishing these
courta, altogether, or of submitting to about five-and-
thirty ecclesiastical courts, not merely retained but
reorganised. Under these circumstances, and looking at
the altered circumstances in which they were then
placed, he should support the amendment of his Hon.
Friend.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said he had listened
with great attention to the speech of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, and derived from it great entertainment ;
but his reasoning seemed to him rather inconclusive. He
was not there to justify the course of proceedings in the
ecclesiastical courts in all particulars ; but it did not
follow from that admission that all the powers possessed
by the ecclesiastical courts should be abolished. He
was quite sure that the Hon. Gentleman had not consi-
dered the utter impossibility of the civil courts, as at pre-
sent constituted, exercising the powers of the ecclesiasti•
cal courts. Now, he had had some experience of the
ecclesiastical courts, and he saw no reason to complain of
the mannerin which they exercised their jurisdiction. He
could not see that the slightest benefit would result from
transferring their powers to the civil courts. He did tint
understand the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Devonport to be disposed to do more than abolish a part
of the powers possessed by these courts. He thought no
case had been made out for the course proposed the Hon.
G en tleman.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Mouse divided, when there appeared—
' For the motion • 70
Against it ll5
Majority
. _ _ _