The Sun.
London, England, 1868-03-13 00:00:00

i❑ Thirliament, her taxation was lighter, and she received
such large assistance from the public funds that England
might complain of being overtaxed for,her benefit. As
to the liud question it was absurd to inveigh against the
law, which was the same in England and Ireland, and,
though he had sat on many committees, he had never
heard yet a case of landlord oppression which could be
verified by dates or other circumstantial evidence. The
system of small holdings was at the root of Irish ills,
and while it prevailed to its present extent there must
always be chronic poverty and discontent. The only
remedy was to provide employment for the people besides
agricultural labour. That could only be done by the flow
of capital ints Ireland. If capital did not find its way
there it was the fault, not of Parliament, but of the friends
of Ireland, like Mr. Maguire, who were perpetually cry-
ing out that the country was in decay and threatening
agitation. 13ut it was this system of small holdings
which Mr. Mill proposed to stereotype. Mr. Lowe made
a lively and humorous attack on Mr. Mill's pamphlet!
and showed that it would aggravate all the evils of the
present state of Ireland. The British Government,
besides being a heavy loser in point of money, would
become ten times more odious, by being placed in the
position of landlord, and the peasantry would be inspired
with a burning desire to get rid of us, that they might
have no mare rent to pay. The holding of land was regu-
lated, not by laws, but by the condition of every country ;
and even if Mr. Mill's plan was adopted, the process of
aggregation would soot recommence, or else the old evils
of subletting and overcrowding would recur. Turning to
the proposal to create a Roman Catholic University, he
condemned it unreservedly as a concession not to the
Roman Catholic laiiirtbut to the Ultransonta.ne hierarchy
of Ireland. Far from being a sedative, nothing was mote
likely to do mischief. But ho refused to believe that the
Government was in earnest in this proposal ; it was rather
a pyrotechnic device which would sink into oblivion when
it had served its purpose. Otherwise, it would not have
been broached first to Parliament, and without previous
communication with the Roman Catholic Bishops. He
deeply regretted the determination not to touch the Irish
Church. The revenues of the Church he held to be public
property, of which Parliament was the trustee for the
benefit of the Irish people at large; and it was a scandal-
ous misappropriation to devote them exclusively to the re-
ligion of less than ten per cent. of the population. It was
the last link of a galling fetter, and when we had swept it
away we might boast that we bad broken entirely with the
wicked past.
The discussion was continued*by Mr. Hughes, who
argued in favour of giving a legal sanction and operation
to the tenant-right custom, and advocated an application
of the principle of association to agriculture; by Mr.
Vance, who, attributing the ills of Ireland to the creation
of 40s. freehold; to the want of a real union between the
two countries, and to the operation of free trade, insisted
that to touch the revenues of the Established Church
would be a violation of the Act of Union, and that Ireland
never could be benefi',ed by a policy of confiscation ; and
by Mr. Agar-Ellis, who recommended that the State should
pay all Ministers of religion, and exposed the abuses which
were inseparable from fixity of tenure.
Mr. JACOB BRIGHT delivered a maiden speech, in
which he dwelt on the anomalies of the Irish Church.
The policy of the Government he characterised as the
merest tinkering with a great question, and he specially
condemned the proposal to create a new establishment and
a new sectarian university. The great want of Ireland
was an extension of the franchise, a just distribution of
seats, and vote by ballot.
Mr. MILL was not much surprised that nothing was to
be done on the land question, for he allowed that the time
was far distant when what he should consider a real re-
medial measure would be proposed by a Government. But
he specially regretted the determination not to deal with
the State Church— an anomaly which was condemned by
the whole human race, and which no people would
submit to but at the point of the sword. The plan of
endowing the Roman Catholic clergy Mr. Mill, retort-
ing the taunt of utopianism which had been levelled at
him, characterised as " kakotopian" too bad to be
put into practice. The clergy themselves certainly
would not accept our bribe. The state of Ireland, he
maintained, was more dangerous than it had ever been at
any previous time, and the circumstance that it received
its strongest support from abroad was the most dangerous
feature. Admitting that since 1829 we had ceased to
govern Ireland for our own benefit, and had only been
guilty of not knowing how to carry out our good inten-
tions, he traced the course of legislation since that year,
pointing out our numerous mistakes. But the great rea-
son of our failure was our unwillingness to face the large
and bold measures which alone could cure Ireland. Mr.
Mill defended at length, and with great elaboration, his
pamphlet, which he said had been greatly misrepresented,
and complained particularly of the epithet " confiscation."
His object was to promote security of tenure, which was
the great want of Ireland, and he suggested that the com-
mission to be appointed should inquire how far its prin-
ciple with modification, to which he was not adverse,
could bo applied in practice.

Mr. HARDY denied that Mr. Mill's plan, if it were put
in practice, would have any effect in removing Irish dis-
affection, and he pointed out that the Landed Estates
Court already gave facilities for the purchase of land in
small lots. After protesting warmly against the vague
and exaggerated language of Mr. Maguire and Mr. Hors-
man, and repeating some of the facts stated by Lord
Mayo to show that Ireland was progressing, and that
Fenianism derived its strength from external sources, ho
proceeded to defend the Government programme. The
mixed system of education, he assorted, had become gra-
dually, almost entirely denominational, and the same feel-
ing which had brought about this change existed with re-
gard to University education. The Catholics of Ireland,
as a rule, had not sent their sons either to Trinity College
or the Queen's Colleges, and from that he assumed that
they desired an University of their own. Indeed, they had
founded and endowed one, and this was the justification of
the Government in proposing to create a now University
which would not bo a merely clerical establishment. As
to the Irish Church, he pointed out that the commission
had been appointed at the instance of Lord Russell, and he
demanded that those who pressed for immediate disesta-
blishment should first show what they would do with the
revenues when they had got it. In illustrating this he read
a long extract from a speech of Mr. Gladstone, who in 1865
resisted a motion of Mr. Dillwyn on the ground that
its acceptance would make it necessary for th 3 Govern-
ment to come forward with a plan. Mr. Gladstone then
said, " The whole question is what is your remedy ?" and
that was now the difficulty. With respect to many sub-
jects it was necessary for those who were charged with the
responsibilities of Government to give up some of their
most cherished predilections ; but now to consent to a re-
solution for the immediate disestablishment of the Church
would be an unparalleled act of political cowardice, which,
so far from conciliating the Irish people, would be but the
signal for fresh demands. At present, therefore, the Go-
vernment were not prepared to make any proposal on the
Church question, and, seeing that Lord Russell during the
years he had been in office had always declined to deal
with it, he held it to be highly unreasonable that the pre-
sent Ministry, which was new in office, should be com-
pelled to pronounce on it at a moment's notice.
The debate was adjourned by Mr. C. Fortescue until to-
day (Friday.)
Some other business was disposed of, and the house ad-
journed at 12 o'clock.