The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-01 00:00:00

S'ATURD AY EVENING, JUNE 1, 1850.

than the disease. In consequence of this and other
circumstances, he perfectly coioeoliel wit?; the Council
on the point that the line of decoareetion should be
drawn between the territory of New South Wales
and the northern district at latitude 60 degrees north.
He should next add that he fully concurred with the
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley), on the grounds that some
system of government was necessary for the local go-
vernment of those colonies, because the great source of
vitality to most of the institutions of this country, and
the very vitality of its constitution were owing to the
influence and eood effect of local government. Such
self-government ho belived to have been the source of
the independence of Englishmen in America, and for that
reason ha wished that municipal institutions should be
carried into effect, end supported in those colonies, par-
ticularly as they proved so beneficial to this country,
when established in 1835, and for that reason he pro-
posed to have a legislative power to control local bodies,
for this country could never be aware of the require-
ments and exigencies of those remote colonies. The
Noble Lord then alluded to the system of outlay of
the revenue for the preservation of order, the survey
of the territory, and also for the education of the rising
generation of those colonies, which he looked upon
es new features, as cetnpered with the Act of
1842, and he therefore considered that another system
of taxation on the land, according to its value, should
be established. For that reason he fully con-
curred with the colonists that they should have full
control over their own resources, and considered it alien
to a representative government to be at the disposal of
persons who were almost totally ignorant of their con-
cerns, and should therefore opposed the idea of a central
committee. He would call the attention of their Lord-
ships to the state of the revenue of New South Wales in
1842, when, out of 500,0001., no less a sum than 81,6004
was separated from the control of the Legislathre, which
he looked upon as unwise and unjust. A similar ar-
rangement was proposed with regard- to the Australian
colonies. It of course would rest with the advisers of
the Crown to exercise that discretion; hilt in cer-
tain respects it was provided by the Bill on their Lord-
ships' teble, and the Government would not be at liberty t
alter those regulations without the sanction of the Colo-
nial Legislature. Bat in respect to the salaries of the
judges, the Colonial Legislature was not to have the
power of altering or reducing the emoluments of thejudges
by any Act of their. He thought it of great importance
that they had now, by the proposed Act, a recognition of
the principle of the Colonial Legislature to deal to a cer-
tain extent, and in certain matters, with questioni relating
to their local affairs. He should certainly support the
principle of a reduction of the expenditure, not only of
the judges, but of other functionaries in the colbny, but
under certain restrictions of the home legislature.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that existing interests should
be respected, and he hoped, with respect to any future
changes or reductions that might be called for or neces-
sary, that they would be attended to. With respect to
the proposed Act, he was of opinion that, in its amended
form, it ought to be applied generally to all the Austra-
lian colonies, with- the exception of Western Australia,
to which it was not intended that it should at present be
extended. Having directed their Lordships' attention
to the various amendments which the present Bill pro-
posed, the Noble Lord said that he thought it possible
that some time would elapse before it would become
necessary to overrule the colonial wishes ; but he
thought that a necessity now existed for the Parliament
of this country to take such a course as that proposed.
Of the various clauses, the most important was that
which prposed a power of summoning the Australian
Legislature. It appeared to him that a mere inspection
of the map of those colonies would show, distantly situated
as they were from each other, that some machinery
or other was necessary to enable them to combine for
some common object. His Lordship then took a geo-
graphical view of the colonies, and said that it appeared
to him that there was a necessity for such a combination
as he had alluded to. In North America, in 1764, he
might remark that a congress was attempted to be drawn
together, and Dr. Franklin prepared a plan for its insti-
tution. Now his (Lord Grey's) own opinion was, that
had such a course as that been at the time adopted, so
tar from having the effect of hastening the separation
of their North American colonies from the mother
country, it would have had an effect of a very contrary
kind, teat of preventing the separation that afterwards
took place—at least, of preventing the occurrence of the
most expensive war into which the Government and
Parliament of this country entered; and he believed also
that if the course to which he had just alluded had been
carried out, that the home Government would not
have taken the violent course they had; and, on the
other hand, such a show of justice would have taken
away from the colonies any motives for separation.
--(Hear, hear.) All that was now proposed was
that her Majesty should have the power to appoint a
governor-general of the colonies, and that it should be
in the power of one or more of those colonies to legis-
late. He trusted, then, that their Lordships would re-
cognise the principle of the Bill, and consent to the se-
cond reading, by which course they would be discharging
an act of great justice. He believed that the form of
government proposed was well adapted to the present
state of the Australian colonies, and he was firmly of
opinion, that from the advances which the colonists were
making, the time was not far distant when the Parlia-
ment of this country would find it necessary by their
intervention to make such modifications in the Bill as
U. circumstances and condition of the colonists might
demand; but that time was not yet come, and he be-
lieved that if hastily resorted to, such a course would
be attended with great inconvenience. The governor,
for instance, would have the power of objecting to
any changes; and with respect to the great distance
of Australia from this country, and the length of
time that must elapse in communications on the subject,
he thought it would be most desirable. He had little to
add beyond the assurance that the Bill which was now
proposed had been accepted by a very considerable ma-
jority of the colonists in Australia, whither the draft of
it had been sent out, and where very considerable dis-
cussions had taken place between all parties on its merits.
He was convinced that their Lordships would that even-
ing give a second reading to this Bill, which might re-
ceive several improvements in Committee ; and they
would, he might add, by the Bill, be providing for the
rights and liberties of millions of their fellow-subjects in
future ages, who were destined to spread themselvet over
the vast expanse of the regions of Australia—regions
now almost unpopulated in some districts, and that they
would be thereby confirming to them the protection and
connexion of the-British flag, which they now enjoyed.
(The Noble Lord resumed his seat amidst cries of
" Hear.")
Earl FITZWILLIAM had no doubt that this mea-
sure was the most important that ever came before a re-
formed Parliament—he said a " reformed Parliament "
emphatically, because he should like to see its acts in
substance what they professed to be in principle. He did
say, then, to his Noble Friend, that of all the Acts
which the Government of which he was a member had
brought forward, there was none of more importance
than that now before their Lordships' House. He looked
upon it as a measure most desirable, and he rejoiced that
it had received the sanction of the other House of Par-
liament. It was a Bill which, as his Noble Friend had
said, was destined to give a constitution to millions of
theirAnglo-Saxon brethren, and he rejoiced, he repeated,
at seeing it brought forward. But while he so expressed
himself, he must at the same time express his regret
that the measure had not, in some respects at least, been
brought forward in a different form • and he believed
that it was the duty of her Majesty's Government to have
brought it forward in a far more perfect form. There was
a feeling about the principle of the measure, which was to
give free institutions to their brethren in Southern Aus-
tralia. That principle he was undoubtedly in favour of.
This, hnweer. was not the sort of constitution, the
Noble Lord himself admitted, which it was the inten-
tion of Government to give to the colonists; their inten-
tion having been to place in the hands of those colonists
the means of establishing a constitution for themselves.
Whsn the Noble Lord talked of giving to the colonists
the me ;peel' forming a constitution, he ought to place
in their hande the tneans of establishing a constitution.
—(ilear, hear.) The Noble Lord was not about to form
t.vo chambers, but was about to form a constituent
assembly, nut of which a constitution might be in time
formed; tied whether he (Earl Fitzwilliam) looked at
ancitint history or at modern circumstance', he found
that peace and prosperity were the objects aimed at, and
he was of opinion that it would be desirable to make,
in some way or other, a second chamber. It was all
very well that the light of the sun should be felt
in those distant culoniei, but he thought that their re-
flected light should be seen here. It would be quite as
well if seine persons, were to try some little experiment
whether a constituent assembly might not work as well
in this country. They ought to determine who might
he elected by the electoral districts. While they gave
popular assemblies, some might think it would be quite
as well to put some alloy into the crucible. If they had
two assemblies, the governmental element and the popu-
lar element should find a place in each assembly. The
greet advantage of this House was that it acted as a drag
when things were going too fast in the other House. If
this was found necessary in this country, a fortiori
it would he beneficial in those colonies. They
should give them further opportunities for dis-
cussion and consideration than they could have
in one assembly. He did not intend to give any
opposition to the second reading of the Bill,
which he approved of generally, but he wished their
Lordships to consider this particular detail.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that he agreed with the
Noble Lord that this was a very !important part of the
measure. The Noble Lord (Earl Grey) had opened the
Bill with the principle that there wee every desire to
stand upon the old ways, but as he went on his argu-
ment showed that there was a disposition to abandon
the old ways. He had recommended and endeavoured
to enforce a departure from them. In 1847, with respect
toNew Zealand, he proposed a double chamber, and in
' the Cape now a similar plan was proposed. Now they
called upon the Noble Lord to show from what authority
modern or ancient, he derived his plan of the present
chamber in Australia. They relied upon that constituent
assembly for the preparation of the constitution itself.
' Nothing could be more unanimous, said his Noble
Friend, than the acceptance of this Bill by the colonists.
Now, which of the gosernors was in favour of a single
chamber? There did not appear to be any authority in
favour of the Bill. Where, then, did the recommendations
come? Why, said his Noble Friend, there was an extra-
ordinary union of the newspapers on the subject. There was
a want of tact, and an extraordinary generosity in this
avowal. He did not seem to perceive that if he made
the newspapers authorities in one instance, they were
equally authorities in another. In some of these colo-
nial newspapers there were accounts if meetings, which
passed resolutions loudly vituperative of the Govern-
ment and this measure. He did not admit that there
was not the materials in those colonies of forming an-
other chamber. In 1842 he (Lord Monteagle) had sup-
ported a Bill similar to this, introduced by a Noble Earl
opposite (Lord Stanley). He did that believing it to be
adapted for the state of society then existing in the colo-
nies; but for the very same reason, the state of a popula-
tion growing in wealth and importance, he now opposed

this measure; therefore there was no inconsistency in
his conduct. He asked, was it not just that the repre-
sentatives of one chamber in those colonies should- have
the power of disposing of their waste lands? And why,
therefore, deprive them of that power, which is the only,
object of their wishes, for the improvement of their co-
lony, particularly when you, the Parliament of Great
Britain, propose to give them an extension of authority,
and of power over their own revenue, by the proposed
alteration in their constitution, as appears according to
this Bill? He should therefore add that, if discontent
prevailed, as he was certain it would, among the inhabit-
ants of New South Wiles, and should therefore move, as
an amendment to the second,, clause, that there should be
in each of the two colonies, a legislative council and a
legislative assembly.
Earl GRANVILLE thought the objection to the
legislative council being a constituent assembly was in-
valid, inasmuch as there was no analogy between them.
The Government only gave to those colonies the power
possessed by the English Constitution of adapting their
constitution to the growing wants of the colony. The
next objection was that of a single chamber. Nobody
could deny the advantage of a House of Lorda in this
country; but the state of things in respect of the compo-
sition of a second chamber in the colonies was different
from that of England. The Government would willingly
give a constitution with two chambers if they were un-
fettered in the matter; but they were nut. In 1842 a
constitution of one chamber was given to New South
Wales, with which the colony was perfectly satisfied; and
it was not desirable, for the sake of giving one theoreti•
tally more perfect, to destroy this state of satisfaction.
With respect to the elective franchise, he considered it
better that it should be settled by the local legislature
than by the Imperial Parliament, and let the colonists
imitate the mother country by working out their own
constitution, suited to their own wants and requirements.
Lord WODEHOUSE said that he considered that this
measure was worthy of the character of this country,
and he looked upon it as the turning point of local legis-
lation, which, as an Englishman, he felt it his duty to
support; as he considered that the interests of all British
colonies should be advanced, and that the more they
were succoured and supported, the more was the strength
and vitality of English independence promoted. And
why, he asked, not grant the same privileges to New
South Wales, as have been granted by America and
other nations, as well as by England to her independent
colonies. Whatever might be the character of the Bill,
they should take care not to lose sight of the maintenance
and stability and interests of the colonies. He would
now ask their Lordships whether they were not satisfied
in their minds that they were legislating for a great
country; and seeing that there were thousands, and tens
and hundreds of thousands of their own race in those
colonies who entertained the same feelings with them-
selves, he hoped that their Lordships would so legislate
on this question as to give them no cause of discontent.
Lord STANLEY would not detain their Lordships
long, but there were one or two points in the Bill now
before their Lordships on which he wished to make a
few remarks. With respect to the constitutiou of 1842,
to which such frequent reference had been made, and
of which he might say that he was the father, he would
here remark that he bad never looked upon the establish.
ment of a single chamber as anything more than a tran-
sition state.—(Hear.) He might here observe that in
Newfoundland, where there was an assembly constituting
an upper house, little numerous, and another assembly,
still less so, there was a system of squabbling carried on
between the two conflicting parties in both chambers,
which led to the greatest interruption of the public bu-
siness. He found in that case that the Speaker of the
Upper House threatened to commit the Speaker of the
House of Commons, who was in opposition to him in
his views, and by those petty squabbles the whole bu-
siness of the Parliament was at a stand-still. He,
therefore, recommended a fusion of the two parties,
and during the short time of that experiment it
had produced the best effect, and the petty
squabbles of the two parties had been se-
c )nciled—there were mutual concessions, the best feel-
ing was restored, and the business went on better. He
did not say that the time was not come when, in New
South Wales, there would not be a demand for a second
chamber; and he was cleerly of opinion that as a prin-
ciple, founded on reference to ancient and modern his-
tory, that two chambers were most desirable. He could
not but remark that he hoped the Government and Par-
liament would retain in their hands the power of alter-
ing, modifying, and extending the constitution proposed
to be given to the colony of Australia; and he must say
that he for one was not for yet extending to the colonists
of New South Wales the same power to alter the con-
stitution given to them which the Bill now on the table
of their Lordships' House proposed to give to the colo-
nists of Australia. With regard to the check proposed
to any alterations which the colonists might propose to
make in their constitution, it merely consisted in giving
to either House of Parliament a period of
thirty days, in which to object to such change,
and that he did not consider sufficient. The point
to which he most objected, and which he thought
most uncalled for, because most unnecessary,
was the introduction into this measure of the
machinery of the federal government of the continent of
Australia, a course which would be extending to the
federal government the power of overriding the whole
of the local governments. He thought that the powers
to be given to the federal government should be such
only as the whole of the local governments would be
satisfied with. He was quite sure that it would not be
wise to give to those colonies the power of making al-
terations in their constitution, and that that was a power
which the Government and Parliament of this country
ought to retain in their own hands; and he was of
opinion, also, that they should not give to the federal
government power without knowing exactly the nature
and extent of the power, and without reserving to the
Minister of the Crown for the time being power to deal
with the subject.
Earl GREY replied. The representatives of the co
lonists, by their silence, had shown their approval of the
Bill. lie would now propose Monday, June 10, fur the
Committee
.upon this Bill, and begging those of their
Lordships who had amendments to propose them in
time, that they might have full consideration. He
moved the second reading of the Bill.
The Bill was then read a second time, and their Lord
ships adjourned.

circulated, and which principally related to the
peineiple compee,ation that ought to b. affor.4,d to
pare who eight b, injured by the operation of the
Bill. He therefore could not consent to delay the fur-
ther progress of the Bill, but if there was any clause
which the Noble Lord wished to have postponed for the
purpose of consulting his constituents upon it, he would
readily assent to that course.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir B. HALL said those amendments were really of
the most vita! importance; and the Bill itself would be
the groundwork of similar Bills throughout the king-
dom, and it must therefore be carefully watched. He
concurred in the application to postpone the measure.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
Mr. HORSMAN gave notice that on Monday
next he would ask the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government if he could fix a day for the
second reading of the Ecclesiastical Bill. On a former
occasion he (Mr. Horsman) remembered that delay in
proceeding with this measure was asked, because of its
being in the House of Lords, and now delay was urged
because of its being out of the House of Lords.
'EVICTIONS IN IRELAND.
Mr. P. SCROPE asked the Home Secretary whether
th`e Government had taken the opinion of the law officers
of the Crown as to the legality of the wholesale evic-
tions going on-in Ireland ? He (Mr. Scrope) would
continue to repeat his question every week during the
session, and so long as those convictions continued.
Sir G. GREY said that the Honourable Gentleman
had given him (Sir George Grey) no notice of his
question, and, therefore, he should postpone his answer
eatil the next occasion on which the Hon. Gentleman re-
peated his question.
SLAVE-GROWN SUGAR.

On the motion for the reading of the order of the day,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ,paid
that as on a former occasion the Hon. Gentleman who had
a motion on the subject of slave-grown sugar on the
paper had postponed it at the request of the Government
on the understanding that a Government night should
be given up to him, he hoped the House would agree
that the orders of the day should be postponed until the
Hon. Gentleman's motion had been disposed of.
Sir E. BUXTON then rose, and after presenting nu-
merous petitions from Glasgow, the Island of Grenada,
St. Vincent, Belfast, Southampton, and other places,
proceeded to move, that it is unjust and impolitic to ex-
pose the free grown sugar of the British colonies and
possessions abroad to unrestricted competition with the
sugar of foreign slave-trading countries. He said he
came forward with great diffidence, and with a great
feeling of inefficiency, to bring forward such a great and
important question as this before the House of Commons,
but feeling that this question was of great importance
to the West Indies, and it seemed to him of still greater
importance to the interests of humanity, he had there-
fore ventured to throw himself upon the kindness of the
House of Commons. Ho must say, in beginning, that
be brought forward this motion in no spirit of hostility
to her Majesty's Government. If he were to turn to the
men who had done the most to promote the interests
of humanity, so far as the slave trade was con-
cerned, he should certainly turn to those gentlemen
who occupied the seat below. He must return thanks
to them for what they had done at various times and in
various ways to put down and to prevent the extension
of the slave trade. It was his intention not to bring
forward this matter as a matter of trade, though he was
well aware of the great importance of this question to
the West Indian colonies. He would shortly enter into
the condition, because the question of the West Indies
was so connected with the question of the slave trade
that it was impossible to separate the two. But his
object was to consider this question as a question of high
principle rather than as a principle of trade.
It was in 1846 that the measure was introduced by her
Majesty's Government, against which he now directed
his chief complaints. The effect of that Act was in some
degree mitigated, at least for the time being, by the
measure which was subsequently passed by the Govern-
ment in 1848. No one would deny that in that year,
when the late Lord George Bentinek was the
chairman of a Committee on the importation of foreign
sugar, the greatest distress existed in the West Indies.
Ho did not mean to say that the same amount of distress
now existed in those colonies, because, as he had said, it
had bean much mitigated by the Act of 1848, but he be-
lieved that the accounts of the great prosperity which
now existed were far from being true; and he had no
doubt that when the duties on our colonial sugar were
brought down to the level of those on foreign and slave-
grown sugar, the same distress which existed in 1848
would exist again. In British Guiana, where the
soil was equal to any in the world, the value
of property was very much reduced in value; the estate
of the bishop, which cost 30,000 dollars, was sold a
short time back for little more than a third of that sum
That showed that very little permanent prosperity was
anticipated in British Guiana from the Act of 1848.
In the West Indies, he learnt from a communication
which he had received, that owing to the low prices of
sugar, a great number of estates were now out of culti-
vation. Great stress had been laid on the Act of
1846 as improving the condition of the West Indies,
whereas if any improvement had taken place,
it was to be attributed to the Act of 1848.
Let them turn for a moment to the condition of Cuba.
They found that the exports of sugar from Cuba had
increased from 145,000 tons in 1840 to 270,000 tons
in 1850, and the increase was likely to continue.
True, the number of slaves in - Cuba had alto-
gether diminished, but while the production of
sugar had increased the growth of coffee had been
greatly reduced, in fact the production had fallen from
24,000 to 10,000 tons, and the result had been that
38,000 slaves had been transferred from the culti-
vation of coffee to the cultivation of sugar. He
need not enter into the state of the Brazils, but
he might observe, in passing, that there also the
quantity of sugar exported had considerably increased,
and there also a great degree of prosperity pre-
vailed amongst the planters. Indeed, the Emperor of
Brazil, in making his speech to the Cortes, informed
them that the empire was greatly in want of lab Our,
thereby showing, that notwithstanding the increased
export of sugar, notwithstanding the great degree of
prosperity which the empire still enjoyed, the growers
were nevertheless desirous of further extending :their
cultivation. It was, however, not on account of the
West Indies that he made this motion, but on behalf of
the great cause of humanity.—(Hear, hear.) In
1815 we gave instructions to the Duke of Wellington,
by which he went abroad; and at that time he proposed
that a convention should be made with the different states
of Europe, stipulating that we should prohibit the im-
portation of the produce grown in countries where the
African slave trade was still carried on—not only in our
own country, but into all the countries of Europe which
should enter into the treaty. At that time we gave 300,0001.
to Portugal, and 400,0001. to Spain, to induce them to
put down the slave trade. It was quite unnecessary to
remind the House that we gave 20,000,0001. in 1833 in
order that slavery should be extinguished in oar own
colonies. He thought every one would acknowledge,
that if there was any principle which this country had
maintained during tho present century, at home and
abroad, in our treaties with foreign powers and
in our domestic concerns, it was, that having
once for all abolished the slave trade in our
own colonies, we would do all that in us lay, as a
great and Christian nation, to put it down in other
countries. He hoped that the time would never
come when this country would give up that great princi-
ple.—(Hear, hear.) An American slave owner said, on
one occasion, ho trembled for his country when he re-
membered that God was just. He (Sir E. Buxton)
thought that we might tremble in this country
if we should see the day when we should give
up the great principle that the slave trade was to be
opposed by every means which was likely to be effective.
He was told that if we kept out sugar we would also
keep out cotton and tobacco from this country.
He saw no reason why he should not make an
attempt to put down sugar, which was one crime,
because, unfortunately, we were so involved that
we could not avoid introducing slave-grown cotton.
The plan which was adopted by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite (Sir R. Peel) to keep out slave-grown
sugar was a wise one, and he for one should
have been glad to see it carried out fur-
ther than it had been. If it were said
that it was impossible to return to that plan, he
would be rather disposed to increase than to decrease
the duties on foreign grown sugar.—(Hear.) Let the
House reflect upon the consequences of the present
system, the miseries of every slave who was engaged in
the cultivation, from his first seizure in Africa to his
life of toil and misery across the Atlantic. There might
be some difference of opinion as to the present
state of the slaves, but into that question he would not
then enter. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded
road the sentiments of Mr. Wilberforce in his letter to
his constituents in 1807. He thought that the most
miserable condition to which a man could be condemned
was that of a slave on a sugar estate in the island of Cuba.
If they placed our colonists in free competition with
the producers of slave-grown sugar, they must make up
their minds that they were creating at the same
time the greatest amount of suffering, misery,
and degradation which could belong to any
civilised condition, and not only would that
be the case, for they would also put a stop to the pro-
gress of civilization in Africa, that part of the world
to which the exertions of missionaries and others had
been mainly directed. He admitted that it was a great
desideratum to give the people a cheap supply of sugar,
but:they should take care that in attaining that end
the did not give rise to a greater evil than what might
be produced by the dearness of this particular commo-
dity. He was quite satisfied that the people of this country
would willingly and gladly forego any advantage that
they might derive from cheap sugar, if the House took
upon itself to maintain a high principle on the ground of
humanity and justice, and he believed that it might cal-
culate on the support of the great majority of the people,
if it bad the courage to pass such a measure as that
which he proposed.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon.
Baronet concluded by making the motion of which he
had given notice.

W. EVANS seconded the motion, and in doing
so he begged it might be understood that he was no sup-
porter of protection against free trade. He looked upon
this question as ono of either freedom or slavery. If, in the
course he was now adopting, he was inconsistent with
wbat he had hitherto done, he was in the situation of
those who considered second thoughts the best.—(Hear.)
All the accounts ho had received from the colonies made
him fear that if the duties were reduced to an equality
the colonists would be ruined, and the greatest injury
would be inflictA on a class whom they had hitherto
legislated for—the negroes.--(Hear, hear.) He there-
fore deprecated the carrying out the Act cif 1846, co as
to reduce the differential duties lower than they now
were.—(Hear, hear.)
The question having been put,
Mr JAME said that he had put a notice on the
paper of his intention to take part in the debate. Ho
had ever been of opinion that it was wrong to put free
labour into competition with slave labour; but the policy
of this country had baen to place the colonies in a posi-
tion to make them compete with slave-grown produce.