The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-22 00:00:00

Mr. FITZGIBBON—CarI cos tell from which 3.ott cepie.d-thm?
.I cannot t.:,1! r.hich.
A Juror—Mr. Jackson, did you not swear, a while ago, that
all you wrote was done during the time of the meetings in the
Exchange, and no place else I—The majority of them were
written there.
Juror—Oh, but you certainly swore they were all written
there, and nowhere else.
CHIEF JUSTICE—Let Mr. Fitzgibbon close his examina-
tion of the witness, and then, gentlemen, you can examine him.
Mr. FizzoinaoN—l will repeat the question of the juror,
and ask did you not swear awhile age that you wrote all those
slips at the meeting, and in no other place ?—To the best of
my recollection the majority of them were written there.
Were all of them written there ?—Not all, perhaps ; some
of them were written after the meeting was over, some of them
were written next day.
Did you do any of them from the newspapers?—Some of
them. _

I ask you again did you not swear that they were all written
at the meeting?—The majority of them were written there, or,
at least, genei ally speaking they were.
While the meetings were going on, were you always em-
ployed writing?—Not alvrays—only sometimes.
That is, you were sometimes only listening ?—Yes.
Do you recollect Mr. O'Connell having made a speech
upon aegro slavery ?—I do; he spoke several times on that
subject.
Turn to your note of the speech he made on that subject
on the sth of July. Were you present on that occasion ?
Yes. _ .

one ?—Yes, to the best of my re-
collection. Was not the speech a long
I want a positive answer ; were you present the whole time
of the meeting ?—I rather think I was.
Is that a positive answer?— Were you present the wholetime
of the meeting ?—I will not swear positively.
Will you swear you were there for an hour ?—Yes.
For two hours ?—To the best of my recollection.
Is that the only answer you will give ? Will you swear po-
sitively to one hour ?—Yes.
That heur may have been made up of different periods ; were
you there more than once that day ?—I won't swear I was
there more than once.
Will you swear positively you were there more than an
hour ?—I think I was, but I did not time myself.
Will you swear positively to half an hour ?—No.
Will you be positive to one gutter of an hour ?—Yes, and
wore. _ _ _ _

What hour of the day did you go to the meeting 7-1 don't
know exactly.
Who was on his legs when you entered the room ?--I don't
know.
Did you not offer, a while ago, to tell me? Was any one in
the room when you went in?—Of course there was.
When you entered the room, was it empty or full ?—I never
went into the room but people were in it.
Can you tell whether it was morning, noon, or night when
you entered it 2—lt was about mid-day.
Did you hear the whole of Mr. O'Connell's speech ?—I did
not hear the whole of it.
You say you went there about twelve or one o'clock ?—Yes,
to the best of my recollection.
And you swear you heard Mr. O'Connell speak there?—
Yes.
Will you swear that Mr. O'Connell was at the meeting at
two o'clock ?—He came in whilst I was there, according to my
note.
Will you swear, from your own livingmemory, that you saw
Mr. O'Connell coming into the Association on the sth of July?
—I either saw him corning into the room, or he was there be-
fore me when I went in'o it. And that is your answer from
the county of Clare ?—Yes ; and I am not ashamed of it.—
( Laughter.) I believe that the Atlantic breeze hardens people's
faces very much ; does it ?—it may ; but it has not hardened
mine, at all events. Will you swear that the Atlantic breeze,
or anything else, has not hardened your face ?—I don't know
that it has hardened me in particular ; but 1 think I will prove
before I leave this table, if I am allowed to explain (as in jus-
tice I ought to be) that it has not. Now, turn to your note of
the 4th of September, and mind, don't lose sight of the ques-
tion between us—namely, that you are to prove to us, before
you leave the table, that you are not a hardened man. Will
you find for me the passage of Ale. O'Connell's speech which
you detailed to us to-day, and in which it is stated, in your
report, that he said, " No tumult should take place in his day ?"
Also read the passage in the report of his speech which has the
word " advisable" in it.
The witness then referred to his note of the speech, but it
appeared that it was spoken, not on the 4th of September, but
en the 29th of August.
After reading his report of the speech of Mr. O'Connell on
the occasion, the cross-examination was resumed.
Were you that day present when Mr. O'Connell was speak-
ing that speech, of which that purports to be a report ?—I
was. You heard him begin it, and end it ?—I did ; I was
writing at the time. And that is the report you were
writing 7—lt is. I wrote it out while I was there. Did you
write out the identical thing that you read here to. day, while
Sir. O'Connell was speaking ?—I did. On those very iden-
tical pieces of paper ?.—Yes. As the words fell from Sir.
O'Connell's lips ?—I do not say I have the very words he
said, but 1 took the substance of the speech. Then you did
not take it from any other report or from any newspaper?—
Positively not. I wrote it while Mr. O'Connell was speaking.
On your oath, you swear that Mr. O'Connell that day used the
words " It world not be an unnatural or inadvisable result"
which you have just read ?—To the best of my recollection he
did. On your oath, will youlswear he used the word " unadvis-
able?"—On my solemn oath I believe he did. Will you swear
it positively ?—I would not put it down if I did not think he
used it. I want you to state positively, did he use it ?—To
the best of any belief he did. You will not give any
answer except qualified in that way?—On that occasion
I will not. Who was sitting next you on that day ?—I can-
not remeariber. Was any person sitting near you..—Some of
the reporters. Can you mention the name of any one re-
porter who was sitting near you ?—The reporters of the
Freeman's Journal and the Saunders's where there. Name
any particular reporter.—.To the best of my belief that gentle-
man there, Mr. Edwards, was present. Are you certain?—
To the best of any belief he was. Can you for certain name any
gentleman ?—I think I could swear Mr. Edwards was there.
Oh, I think you could swear it too. Then lon cannot name
a single reporter who was present t—l cannot; the usual corps
of reporters were there, but I cannot swear to any one reporter
in particular. Let me put a simpler question to you. Can
you name any single person who saw you in the Association
rooms on that day?—Any one that was there might have seen
we. Mr. O'Connell or Mr. Ray might have seen me. I had
not the honour to speak to Mr. O'Connell that day, and I can-
not say that I expect to have that honour hereafter. I cannot
name any others who might have seen me. And you know
Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Ray are traversers and cannot give
evidence. Can you name any single man who opened his
lips there that day to you ?—At this distance of time I can-
not. It is only the 29th of August last. Did you speak to
any one ?—I cannot say. Can you name any one man, woman,
or child who spoke to you that day ?—I cannot, ex-
cept those two gentlemen. What two gentlemen/—Mr O'Con-
nell and Mr. Ray. kut you have not positively sworn that
even they spoke to you. Who was in the chair?—l cannot re-
member. NI, as Mr. John O'Connell there ?—I cannot say with-
out referring to my notes. The witness, after looking through
his notes, said that he perceived Mr. John O'Connell was
there. I took notes of those three gentlemen, because one
always mentions the leaders. One cannot play Hamlet, you
know, with the part of Hamlet left out. Did Mr. John O'Con-
nell say anything ?-11e did. I have here, that " Mr. John
O'Connell thought it would be better if the matter was first
submitted to the committee." 1 certainly did not take this
from the newspapers. I cannot swear how long Mr. O'Con-
nell was speaking. He was probably speaking for nearly an
hour. Ido not think there was any other speech except that
of Mr. O'Connell made on that day. There was no long speech
made except Mr. O'Connell's, but there might bo a few short
observations. And yet yen read your report of that long
speech, which was the speech of the day, is three or four
minutes I—Do you swear those words were used, " he would
not say that such wouldbean unnatural or unadvisable result?
--I think those were his words precisely. Do you swear they
were his words ?—On my oath, to the best of my belief, they
were. How near Mr. O'Connell were you at the time?--As
near as I am now to the corner where the Attorney-General is
sitting. I did not pay a shilling to get in, as the porter ad-
mitted me. Then the porter knew you to be the reporter : did
you look at any gentleman's slips there ?—I cannot say. There
were shorthand reporters there that day. The majority of the
reporters wrote shorthand notes. A shorthand reporter could
decidedly take a more faithful report of what Sir. O'Connell
said than I could.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wneresine, Queen's Counsel, on
the part of Mr. Duffy.—l think you mentioned the name of
Mr. Duffy?—You are quite right. Now draw on your me-
mmorr.y
Dfourffyfaacttst,
the
enmd
enetoitr,gonofytoluier
6itiathageifn
jatuiloyn. Did
can o
ou see
without referring to my notes. Or on the 25? ti; fJuly t ? yi
must refer to my notes. And these notes you told Sir. Fitz-
gibbon you sometimes copied from another reporter, and
sometimes from the morning papers of the next day.
You have a taste for eloquence ?—Not the slightest. Do you
not deal in " thunderbolts and tarnation tine things ?" You
are, I see, a literary person, and contribute to the magazines.—
( Laughter.) I have a curiosity to see the paper in which
those words appeared,?—l will make you a present of it.
hank you. Does that kind of writing
are suit the London
market 2—lt goes down with them. They very gullible,
I believe ?—I cannot get the extract for you without having
the date. I cannot remember what 3lr. Duffy said without
my notes. I did not take down everything he said. Don't
knowfriend the th
the way in which you took down your report?—No ; I did
not think he would have called upon me at all. Mr. Kemmis
Dhuekespookf ewealblionugttoNnafolDeoind
ABionnaKpaertntemir.
adsky3o,ouur
wroteand l o e
ate requestingded
m e aml
letter
tet or comefrom toth histhe
Morning Herald, stating they had kept my letters to them.
I did not ask you the contents of their letter. Have you
all those valuable efforts of yours that you sent to the Morning
proprietorsoffi ce
I didof so,he
Herald now in Court ?—Oh, no, not all of them. Look to
your notes with reference to the songs in the Nation, and see,
in the meeting of the 4th of September, what alltnion was
made by Sir. Ray to those songs ?---Mr. Ray said—Stop Sir.
Did you not say that lie made some observations in the nature
of a speech ?—I did not ; I said it was a mere casual observa-
tion. To the best of my recollection he made those observa-
tions, and to the best of my recollection I was present, but I
can't say positively. I will not swear that it was not copied in
my report from another paper. Will you swear that he did not
say, that ho had got a letter stating that some ballad-singers
had been taken up for singing seditious songs, and that Mr.
O'Connell approved of the conduct of the persons who took them
up ?—My notes were but running commentaries on the pro-
ceedings taken quickly to be in time for the post, and I do not
undertake to swear to their verbal accuracy. I will not swear
that Sir. O'Connell did not stand up arid move a vote of
thanks to the person who arrested the ballad-singer. You
gave evidence of Sir. O'Connell's having read an address
on the 27th of August about the Irish representatives.
Now, did he not comment upon that address on that occasion?
—He did. Did he not fully comment on it, and was it not
a detail of grievances under which the Irish people suf-
fered ?—lt was such a detail, and he commented upon it.
Did it not set out all Irish grievances, whether civil or politi-
cal ? —Tel. Did you ever consider what would remedy them ?
—Never.—(Laughter.) Did not Mr. O'Connell say that the
people were not disaffected ?—He did. Did he not say that
the people were affectionate to the Queen and loyal to her per-
son ?—I frequently heard him say so. Did you not hear him
speak of the French Constitution, and:allude to Louis Philippe ?
—1 did, mere than once. Did he not speak of it as net being
a fair and true Constitution, because the House of Lords was
what he called a mockery ?"—lle did. Don't you remember
Mr. O'Connell saying that he would correct an error, in repu-
diating all newspapers as being organs of the Association ?—I
think I heard him say so several times. Are you not sure ?
lam sure, and 1 have heard him mention the Nation. Do
you recollect the day upon which the plan far the renewed ac-
tion of the Irish Parliament was read ?—I do. You wrote
about those matters according to the literary palate of your
readers I—l did ; I made them up to make them spicy, by adding
a little fun.—( Laughter.) Has the Morning Herald changed
hands of late ?—lt has. Was it since that occurred that you
got directions to call on Mr. Kemmis, the Crown solicitor,
from your proprietors?—No, but it was very shortly before.
Did not Mr. O'Connell say that he would not, er the Associa-
tion would not, be responsible for anything any paper said ?—I
often heard him say so. I suppose you were quite surprised at
seeing those manuscript papers of yours handed to y ou ?—lndeed
I was.
Mr. WIIITESIDE having told the witness that he might go
down from the table,
Mr. Jackson said he wished to make one or two observations
in vindication of his character.