The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, JUNE 13, 1844,

tion. lie contended that the religious sentiment was in the discharge of their duties, and whatever might;
necessary to insure the stability of every Government. be the success of that Church, its abuses would be I
He thanked the House for the attention with which no longer an impediment to its progress. An Hon.
they had heard him, and apologised for observations Gentleman had asked whether they would create the
made in so crude and ill-digested a manner. Established Church de ,weo if it ceased to exist ? He
Mr. VERNON SMITH congratulated the Hon. (Sir James Graham) did not think that was a fair
Gentleman on having, on this occasion, become the test by which to try the advantage of the Protestant
saviour of the Irish Church ; if he had not risen when 'Church. There were several institutions which ex-
he did, they would certainly have carried the Coin- , isted from the earliest time, and which they valued
mittee, but the Hon. Member had very opportunely very much, and which they would not, perhaps,
displayed his great powers of information, he must create again if they were no longer in existence. But
say, on every subject except that more immediately i he need not deal with that now, for the Irish Protes-
before the House, and when that failed him he was tent Church was yet in existence. They found that
kin lly supplied with refreshment from the Treasury the Church had been brought under the considera-
benches (Laugh ter)—which he (Mr. V. Smith) tion of both the British and Irish Parliament
hoped was merely a forerunner of other more sub- lat the time of the union. He would not
stantial favours from the same quarter.—(Lord put that article of the union, to which re-
Stanley, during Mr. Borthwick's speech, had sent ference had been made, higher than the necessity
Lord A. Lennox to the lobby of the House for an of the case required. He would not say that that
orange, which the Noble Lord handed to the Hon. Mem- article prohibited all interference with the tempo-
ber.) The lion. Member had certainly established him- ralities of the Protestant Church of Ireland, but it
self ai one of the first speakers against time that had was a solemn consideration that any interference
ever appeared in that House. It often happened that with its temporalities should be an inteference based
topics of importance were made an occasion for decla- upon the maintenance and prosperity of the Church.
melon, and he was not surprised that many gentle- It was on that ground that he and his Noble Friend,
men had voted this question a bore, and not come were parties to the Church Temporalities Act and
down to listen to the discusei( n. But other subjects the Tithe Commutation Act. The greatest exagge-
of equal importance had been neglected in the same ration prevailed out of doors as to the revenues of the
manner in that House, and yet they had been finally Protestant Church. They had been 800,000/. a year,
ca- vied. On the question of Parliamentary Reform, including all sources of revenue. They were now re-
he believed the House was counted out a very short duced to 650,000/., and if deductions were made from
time before it was carried. The question of Catholic the gross income, he did not believe that the Hon.
Emancipation was for a long period considered Member for Sheffield would dispute the fact with
rather as a thesis for young speakers than him, that the revenues from all sources were now
as a practical measure, before it passed. about 590,0001., certainly under 600,0001. Nothing
It was highly necessary that they should was more common than to have recourse to threats,
pay attention to this measure, for the sake of where reason failed, and the Gallant Commodore who
preserving the peace of Ireland, which was in immi- spoke on this subject would be quite decided by the
nent danger. It might be broken either from a first shot fired in Europe. He had given them wars
failure of the potato crop or the firing of a hostile and rumours of wars, and he had given them the
gun in Europe. He believed that, if the report that Prince de Joineille in the chops of the Channel, and
Admiral Dupetit Thouars had sunk an English ship unless they gave up this question there was no safety
at Otehaite had been true, the question of the Irish for the British Empire. That assertion, he thought,
Church would have been settled, from the necessity did great injustice to the Roman Catholics of
they should have been under of calling in the aid of Ireland. He did not think that the accustomed
their fellowecountrymen. He wished to see the gallantry and loyalty of the Roman Catho-
way in which the Ministry intended to deal with this lies would be found wanting when occasion offered.
question. The Irish Church was always the diffi- Those threats would not overawe, for notwithstand-
culty that stood in the way of establishing a govern- ing that they had come from one so distinguished for
ment in Ireland. When the late Government estab- his bravery as the Gallant Commodore, the best
lisped the system of national education, the Church mode of nullifying such danger would be by employ-
was the greatest opponent of it, and they were ing the Gallant Commodore himself.—(Cheers and
still the greatest opponents of that useful system. laughter.) He did not believe there was much
The Church stood in the way of the administration of danger to be feared if that Gallant Commodore did
justice, as the Government knew from the difficulties his duty, not in uttering threats, but in conquering
with respect to Catholic juries. They talked of defend- elsewhere. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member
ing the Church on the score of defending the rights for Northampton, said that the present Government
of property. Why, they made greater inroads on pro- were unable to do justice on questions involving the
perty every day than would be caused by -any alters- opinions and feelings of Roman Catholics, on account
tion of the Catholic Church. Every railroad Bill pro- of the warm feelings of some of their supporters in
duced a great and compulsory change in the rights of that House. How was that statement to be recon-
property. On the ground of religion, he could not tiled with the conduct of the Government in reference
see how they could maintain the Church as it at to national education in Ireland, which was opposed
present existed. It had totally failed in propagating by many of their supporters in that House ?
the Protestant Church in Ireland. He did not ap- (Hear, hear)—or with their conduct on a
prove of an universal voluntary system. But in Ire- late occasion towards the Unitarians, whom
land the majority of the population had a voluntary they supported from a sense of justice alone?
systeen, and the minority had a compulsory one. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who had diverged into a
That was the very worst position in which a country variety of topics which did not properly belong to the
could stand in this respect ; their object should be debate, had observed that even for the Church of
to produce something like an equality between the England they had failed to perform their promises,
Churches. lie considered that the amount of revenue and that the measure which they had brought forward
enjoyed by the Protestant Church, and the last year to increase its usefulness, had not issued in
conduct of individual dignitaries connected with it, any practical benefit. Now he must remind the Hon.
were minor points of the question. lie considered Gentleman that the borrowing of 60,0001. of capital,
the Church rather as a religious grievance than as a upon the security of the ecclesiastical revenue, had
pecuniary one. He considered the Church in Ire- enabled the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to place from
land as an anti-Protestant Establishment, and as 150 to 200 additional clergymen in the manufacturing
such he was prepared to deal with it. He districts, with an income varying from 1501. to 200/.
wished to see the Catholic clergy not entirely de- a year. When such a great addition had been made
pendent on their congregations, as it deprived them to the parochial strength of the Established Church,
of their moral independence, while an allowance from he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman was
the State would secure their loyalty. He should not somewhat premature in declaring that the
go into the means by which this might be done—he measure had not been attended with any benefit.
did not anticipate that any great movement would be —(Hear, hear.) Now he was quite prepared to do
made by the Government in regard to this measure. ample justice to the speech of the Hon. Member for
Seeing how they were supported it was almost im- Sheffield in introducing the motion before the House ;
possible for them, even if they wished it, to do so. but he must be permitted to say that, although he had
All their support was derived from the High Church laid down very extensive premises, nothing could be
party in this country. The English people so unsatisfactory as the conclusion at which he had
were generally moderate and quiet, but they arrived. He appeared to have ransacked all the stores,
had their periods of excitement which ge- not only of Hansard, but of history generally, in pre-
nerally occurred at the septennial election, paring that speech. They had had extracts from
and he could assure the Government that it would speeches in the House of Commons and in the House
not do to go to the constituencies with the trumpery of Lords, extracts from history, extracts from ser-
tariff, their Ecclesiastical Courts Bill, the County mons, extracts from pamphlets, extracts from the
Courts Bill, or such a question as that of Church Ex- Edinburgh Review ; they had had puffs of auc-
tension, which had done nothing as yet, and which he tioneers, speeches in taverns and at dinners, speeches at
believed would end with doing very little. In a re- Exeter Hall, Mr. Glover's book, Mr. 'Neil's lec-
cent debate the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) tures, Mr. Montgomery Martin's repeal newspaper,
had introduced the question of the Roman Catholic a Prussian traveller's comments on Ireland; in
oath, and read it at the table, for the purpose of point- short, all the lion. Gentleman's historical researches
ing out the subjects on which he thought they were were brought to bear upon this subject, and yet, he
bound not to vote. repeated, although nothing could be more ample than
Lord STANLEY—I said the very contrary. his premises, nothing could be so narrow and incom-
Mr. V. SMITH—It was of very little consequence plete as his conclusions.—(Hear, hear.) He would
what the Noble Lord had said : why had he brought only quote one or two of his expressions with respect
forward and read the oath at all ? He had looked to the Protestant Church. He said that the main-
over the debates on the Catholic Relief Bill, and when tenance of that Church was a grievance to the Irish
it was proposed that Roman Catholics should not be people; he said that Europe desired to see Ireland
allowed to vote on questions affecting the Church, the liberated from the last remnant of the yoke ; he• said
Right Hon. Bar meet opposite said he would never that he was prepared to concede at. once what it was
allow that any Member of that House should be ex- dangerous to withhold ; and then, entertaining these
eluded from forming his own judgment on any par- strong opinions, he contented himself with moving
ticular case, and he was unwilling to deprive the Ro- for a Committee of inquiry. Now, as a preliminary
man Catholic Members of that liberty of free discus- step, that might be intelligible, if the Hon. Gen-
sion, and the exercise of judgment, which belonged to tleman were more explicit with reference to the
every Member of Parliament. He appealed to the object which he had in view in proposing
recollection of the Right Hon. Baronet whether he that the House should go into Committee.
did not use language to this effect, for he (Mr. V. But he said he did not ask the House by its vote to
Smith) was not prepared with any scraps of Han- pledge itself to any specific plan ofiproceeding. If he
sard. He did not know what object would be de- had never heard the lion. Gentleman before last night
rived from maintaining this oath. It was no secu- on that subject, he should have believed that he had
rity for the Established Church, for since it was first opened a very extensive view of what appeared to him
enjoined every Member was to interpret it for him- a very difficult subject, attended with considerable
self ; and it should be left to the good taste of Hon. danger, but that he had no preconceived opinion as
Gentlemen whether they would throw it in the teeth to the remedy which ought to be applied. The Hon.
of Roman Catholic Members, that they did not ad. Gentleman's opinion last session was that seven-
here to it. lie did not think that much could be ex- eighths of the temporalities of the Irish Church, hay-
pected from the present Government on a question of ing regard to all existing interests, should be taken
this nature, but if they wished to remove the great from it, and those seven-eighths should be transferred,
source of discontent in Ireland they would amend the in proportion to their numbers, to the different reli-
present state of the Established Church in that coup- gious sects in Ireland. He must say, therefore, that
.—(Hear, hear.)
try it appeared to him, thatthe House could not entertain
Mr BORTH WICK explained. his present proposition unless they were prepared to
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was unwilling to occupy take a great step towards the spoliation of the Pro-
the time of the House at any length, seeing the testant Church in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It should
apparent weariness and langour which characterised not be forgotten that those who were best acquainted
the present debate in so remarkable a manner.— with the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland had de-
(Hear, hear.) lie thought the Hon. Member who dared that the ministers of that Church would abso-
introduced this subject had very considerable out- lutely refuse the offer of endowment. If that were
stripped public opinion in seeking for the destruction true, the Honourable Gentleman's object could not
of the Protestant Church in Ireland. He would not be attained except by depriving the Protes-
follow the Right lion. Gentleman who spoke last into tent Church of all its revenues, and placing
the rather irrelevant subject of the Catholic oath. He it in the position of a voluntary church, without
agreed with him, however, that each Member was to any endowment.—(Hear.) To that proposition, if he
be bound by his own conscientious opinions as to the were not mistaken, the Noble Lord, the Member for
interpretation of the oath, and it was for no other the City of London, had declared on a former occa-
Member to ask of him to interpret it according to the sion, that he felt insuperable objections. The ques
view which
Catholic -
took of it himself.—(Hear, hear.) The tion which they were then debating was, in reality,
Roman
Members were admitted on the corn- whether or not they should go into Committee for
he
plete understanding that the obligation of an oath the purpose of depriving the Protestant Church of a
was binding on their consciences, and that being so, it great part, if not the whole, of its revenues. He did
was left to each individual to put their own interpreta- not think it at all necessary to cavil about the terms
tion on the oath. He also agreed with the Right of the article of union. He was not prepared to deny
Hon. Gentleman with respect to the difficulty of the historical fact brought forward by the Hon.
dealing with religious subjects in regard to Ireland Member for Sheffield, that Mr. Pitt had considerably
where there was a voluntary Church, a stipendiary modified the fifth article of union, as compared with
Church, and an Established Church. But the Right the form of words adopted by the Irish Parliament,
Hon. Gentleman had asked what were the intentions and he would frankly admit, that he believed the ar-
of the Government with regard to the Protestant title of union, as now formed, would admit of the
Church. He (Sir J. Graham) had so frequently State making some endowment for the Roman Ca-
debated this subject, and expressed his opinions with tholic priesthood in Ireland. But without casuistry,
regard to it, that from him the Right Hon. Gentleman which would be unworthy of a deliberative body, he
could expect but one answer, which be believed was must contend that the proposition of depriving
also the opinion of his colleapies—that it was their the Protestant Church in Ireland of its revenues was
desire to purify the Established Church of Ireland of utterly inconsistent with the fifth article as it was
every abuse, and to strengthen it by regulating its nowTramed. Some reliance had been placed on the
discipline and practice ; and, having so purified it, it circumstance that there was no reference to the tem-
was their determination to support it as the Estab- poralities in that article of union, and allusion had
lished Church of Ireland.—(Ministerial cheers.) The been made to Scotland-more than once in reference
Hon. Gentleman who introduced the subject had said to this subject. Now he did not consider that the
that the Established Church in Ireland was very in- •case of Scotland was at all analogous. It appeared to
efficient, and had made no converts. He concurred in him to be the very converse of the case in point. In
the opinion of Mr. Buxton, who, in that House, de- Scotland at the time of the union the religion of the
dared it as his opinion that the abuses of the Estab- majority was the religion of the State, and the reli-
lished Church were the great impediments to the gion of that majority constituted the religion of the
Establishod Church in Ireland.— representative body at the time of the union. In Ire ••
spread of the
(Hear, hear.) He and his colleagues readily ad- land at the time of the union the religion of the mi-
mitted that; and, whether in office or in opposition, nority was the religion of the State, and the repro-
they did their best to remove these abuses. The Hon. sentative body—the parties to the union—be-
Gentleman said that the Established Church in Ire- longed to the religion of the minority.
land was the worst Church in Christendom. So far, therefore, from the cases being par-
Mr. WARD said he did not say so. He only rellel, they appeared to him to be the con-
quoted the opinion of Queen Mary. yerse on of the other. But with respect to the
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he did not think temporalities of the Church of Scotland and
that it could be expected that the opinion of Queen temporalities of the Church of Ireland a di-
Mary could be very favourable to the Protestant %red stipulation was made in the articles
Church. of union, that they should be preserved inviolate.
Mr. WARD meant the Queen Mary of 1693, the In each case the maintenance of the Establishment
wife of William 111, stood upon precisely the same ground ; and with re-
Sir J. GRAHAM begged the Hon Gentleman's ference to both, England was bound by the most so-
pardon ; but, at all events, he was ready to admit lemn engagements to maintain the Establishment
that within a period a little later than the Revolutione intact and inviolate.—(Hear, hear.) ;Cow, the Hon.l
there were abuses in the Established Church of Member for Sheffield, and the Right lion. Gentle-
Ireland e..
Ireland which were a disgrace. There were many man, the Member for Northampton, had both. referredfor a
wish to see; but within the last quarter of a century repeal of the union was brought. forward inthat
every effort had been made to remove those abuses. House. On that occasion idoon
itrohepyroNwoomueldnt grant
and t
Another important measure was passed by the Go- dared that they would
eFerri no
Friend
n the
hoof Earlme bGrey,Member
f andr introducedNorth L a
no
Lancashire,
rhei,s Noblewi justch ever
every
causewell-considered
of.o ocoosmi
dpel their ewi ;awas
utmostsald Parliamentto reneove adne;
diminished the Protestant hierarchy of the country ; they were told that an absence of measures for the be-
and
they took ample precautions in guarding nefit of Ireland had marked. the. present session.
, and both the Mein- Now, it would not be consistent with that period of
ra dn measurean d that
o f
bers for the University of Dublin pointed out the the ebate, that he should go into any detailed argu-.
effect of those measures in reducing sinecures and ment with respect to the measures which had been
against sinecures and pluralists
pluralities. 'Whether the Established Church of Ire- introduced by the Government ; he would only enu-
land was the worst Church in Christendom or no, he merge them. In the first place, a very important
believed that the ministers of that Church might now ,alteration had been made in the Irish poor-law, which
challenge comparison with any ot;ler ministers of the had had the effect of relieving the poorer portion of
Protestant faith. They were resident, and active the community from an oppressive rate which bad been