The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-22 00:00:00

RAILWAY ABANDONMENT BILL.

Onthe motion of Elrl GRANVILLE the order of the
day for the House resolving itself into Committee on
this Bill was discharged, in order that that Bill might be
referred to a Select Committee.
IRISH POOR-LAW.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the
()rulers of larid in the Balinasloo Union against the
Iri,h Poor-law, aad praying for protection to agri-
culture,

The Earl of DESART considered that the peti-
tion which had just been presented by his Noble
Friend would form a proper introduction to the motion
of which he had himself given notice. He rose to move
the following' resolutions : 1. That under the pro-
districts, purpose, pro-
visions of the existing Poor saw the resources of many
districts have been found utterly inadequate for the sup-
port of the population; and that while the Act has thus
fad to
it has produced bank-
ruptcyle has driven capital out
of the country, and has enfeebled and paralysed the ef-
forts of both farmers and landlords, 2. That it is the
iit and ruin accomplish in
opinion of this House that these mischief's have resulted
from the extension of the Poor-law of 1838, and the adop-
tion of a system of out-door relief at that time not con-
templated; and it is further their opinion that no per-
manent system for the relief of the poor can be carried
out in Ireland safely and beneficially to receivers or
payers without a return to the principle of the original
law, by a strict application of in-door relief to all classes
of paupers." Before addressing himself to the subject
of his motion, ho begged to remind the House of the
vital importance of the question to Ireland; that it was
a question on which hung not the well-being or pros-
perity of any one class, or of any one interest, but on
which hung the existence and prosperity of every in-
terest and even the very life of the people of
Ireland. When that House met in 1847, that
portion of the kingdom was labouring under
the pressure of unexampled calamity. y The Noble
Marquis opposite on that occasion said, that since
the period of all authenticated history he did not
remember any calamity so great having fallen on any
civilised country as that which had fallen on Ireland.
Under such fatal circumstances he would be the last to
blame any measures which might be calculated to afford
relief. He would, therefore, not allude to either the
public works or other measures of temporary relief, but
would at once proceed to what he considered the most
fatal, one under which every interest was still groaning
and suffering, the extension of the poor-laws. If that
law had been passed for a country supposed to be in
a sound social condition, or comparatively so, it
might in itself have done no harm, and caused
no abuse, and besides, it was passed without any
view or contemplation of out-door relief, and, indeed,
stringent provisions were introduced against such a
system being acted on. All parties agree that a sys-
tem of outdoor relief would be unmanageable and dan-
gerous, and that its evils would be aggravated a hundred-
fold if applied to Ireland. Under that view the law was
passed, with the general concurrence of all parties. But
then, in the summer of 1847, when the country was still
smarting under the effects of that great calamity, which
had shaken, and almost annihilated its interests, so that
it could not be relieved by the extension of any poor-
law whatever, but called fur more comprehensive mea-
sures and more active and energetic legislation, they in-
flicted on it an extension of that law and the dangers of
outdoor relief.—(Hear, hear.) Did they calculate when
passing that measure, for what end they were bringing
on the country an increase of the permanent difficulties
and dangers under which it was already labouring with-
out any adequate relief being afforded from the tem-
porary distress of the moment? With a people idle and
demoralised by the public works—with a tenantry desti-
tote of capital and deprived of sustenance, and with land-
lords whose tenants were unable to pay their rents, how
did they expect the one to sustain themselves, or the
other to pay rates for the support of the rest, as proposed
by that measure?—(Hear.) The consequence of that
experiment on a country much less fitted to bear it
than England, was, that it had been an utter and total
failure, as well in those districts which were still strug-
gling against distress, as in the completely crushed and
ruined districts of the far West. The only ground for
the moat sanguine to hope that the ruin was not yet ir-
remediable lay in the fact as given in the returns laid
before Parliament two days age, that there had been a
small decrease in the number of persons receiving out-
door relief. In those returns he found that in this year
there were 98,000 persons less receiving out-door re-
lief than in the preceding year. That might be so; but
then there were 30,700 more on the in-door relief list.
The stringent application of the in-door relief test, no
doubt, diminished the out-door list to a very great ex-
tent, but still not to the whole extent. He found that
the debts due to contractors and other private persons,
alone amounted in 1848, to 268,0001., and in 1849, this
debt had increased to 513,000/. In 1848 tbo unions in
debt were 66, and in 1849 they rose to 105. This was
the state of the unions that were said to be well off.
Now, ho would refer to the state of other unions that
were said to be well off. The expenses of Ballena, for
instance, amounted to 52,7001. The rate collected was
10,0001., and the Treasury advances were 36,0001.—
(Hoar, hear.) • The Noble Lord then referred to the
state of various unions in Ireland, which ho showed
were in a most impoverished state. How, then, he
asked were they to go on? Could they expect that im-
provement would go on in a land where such things
occurred? Certainly not. He a bleated that districts
were bound to support their own poor, but parishes
ought not to be called upon to support the poor of other

districts by a rate-in-aid, or by other means. The state
of parishes in Ireland wr.s this, solvent, struggling, and
insolvent. Were they, by carrying on the present sys-
tem, to lower the two former classes of parishes to the
level of the latter? One way of meeting this difficulty
was by raising a new loan of money by the authority € f
Parliament. Ile also suggested that they should pro-
vide labour for those willing to work, to promote emigra-
tion in respect to these who could not or were unwilling
to work. By the recent Acts of Parliament, which took
away protection from corn, the great means of existence
to the labouring classes ir. Ireland had been destroyed.
Cheapness and plenty had been the cry for this altera-
Con in the law, but when he saw the result of this alte-
ration in Ireland, he looked upon the cry to be most fal-
lacious. The Noble Lord concluded by expressing a
hope that they would, by largo and comprehensive mea-
sures, meet the distress which prevailed in Ireland, and
which, if allowed to continue, would reduce it to the
lowest depths of misery. The Noble Lord then moved
the adoption of his resolutions.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE would state shortly
the grounds upon which he would oppose the motion of
the Noble Lord. In the outset he would admit that out-
door relief was only justified on the ground of in-
evitable necessity. Tho Noble Lord suggested that they
ought to adopt comprehensive measures to meet the
existing distress in Ireland ; but as the Noble Lord had
not stated what those measures were, he could hardly be
expected to observe upon them. The Noble Earl had
referred to a speech of his, delivered some time since, but
the Noble Earl would do him the favour to recollect
that he only admitted that two of the measures alluded
to would be beneficial to Ireland, namely, advances to
promote improvements in Ireland, and the other, to sell
encumbered estates. Measures on these subjects had
been adopted, end they had operated advantageously in
Ireland. Although he admitted that out-door relief
had led to abuse, still he would rather have had this
abuse than that the lives of thousands of the poor should
have been sacrificed by the adoption of a different system.
It was impossible in such a scattered population that an
abuse of out-door relief should not have occurred; but the
establishment of local inspectors had done much to pre-
vent the recurrence cf this abuse. But if this abuse
did exist, as he was free to admit it did—it was to be
attributed to the want of care on the part of the guar-
dians as to the mode in which relief was administered.
Ho was happy to be able to say, that not only had out-
door, but even in-door, relief diminished materially of
lite. In proof of this, he would mention that in the
week ending the 7th of February, 1850, the number of
persons relieved in Ireland was 124,000, whereas in the
week ending the 7th of February, 1849, the number of
persons relieved was 546,407.—(Hear, hear.) So that
the reduction was equal to three-fourths. The same fact
applied in respect to the expenses for maintaining the
poor. In the week ending the 7th of February, 1849,
the expenses of the poor all over Ireland was 14,081/.;
in the corresponding week in this year the expenses had
fallen to 2,673/., a reduction of the expense amounting
to full four-fifchs.—(Hear.) And he was happy to say,
that this reduction in the expenses for the maintenance
of the poor had been going on progressively since
October last. Even in the province of Connaught.
which had been in such a state as apparently to defy all
legislative means to remedy it, ameliorating symptoms
were manifesting themselves. He held in his hand a re-
turn from eighteen unions in that province, from which it
appeared that the monthly expenditure of these unious
had been reduced from 33,000/ to 17,0001.; that out-
door relief had decreased from 91,000/. to 11,000/.; that
the numbers in the workhouses had also greatly de
creased; and that the total amount of pauperism in all
Connaught had decreased from 136,000 persons to 46,0°0.
—(Hear, hear.) Adverting to the opposition whien ex-
isted in Ireland to the erection cf buildings for this pur-
pose, ho was glad to say that the necessity for a whole-
some administration of the poor-law, which was now
perceived by all classes, had in a great measure annihi-
lated the general antipathy which prevailed with regard
to it. Notwithstanding their desire to promote the
gradual extinction of out-door re!ief, the Commissioners
would, in very many instances, have to give relief on the
sudden. For that purpos,s they would have to give a
sealed order, but he trusted that they would only be
induced to do so under the most rigorous circumstances,
and with the exercise of a sound discretion.—(Hear.)
He did not wish to concur in any resolution binding
the conduct of these parties in that respect, and
he had no desire to offer any direct opposition to
this resolution. But, if bo did so, it must
not be understood that Parliament considered
that the system of permanent out-door relief in Ireland
was desirable. Ha hoped that no efforts would bo
spared to carry into effect the original spirit of the
poor-law, which, he felt convinced, would operate to the
advantage of all classes. As to other measures for the
redief of Irish distress which it might be in the contem-
plation of the Government to introduce, their Lordships
would not expect him on that occasion to enter into any
explanation with regard to them, as in due time they
would be laid before them. The Noble Lord concluded
by moving the previous question.
Lord MONTEAGLE said he thought the House had
great reason to complain that information and public
documents had been withheld, or, at least, had not been
furnished on this subject, which were essential t s the
proper understanding of the question. The fellacy of
drawing conclusions from their present state of know-
ledge, was singularly seen in the instances of the unions
of Kilrush and Vcariff. It would appear from the returns
relating to these unfortunate unions, thut they were more
prosperous now than they had ever been, because no out-
door relief had been given from the House. The fact
was well known, however, that the funds of those
unions were so exhausted, that having not oue single
farthing to support even a moderate system of out-door
relief, and her Majesty's Government being unable
or une illing to make an advance, in one week 11,000
persons were struck off the out-door relief list. In
many districts of Ireland, whilst the valuation had de-
creased, the rate had increased. Thus, in the Newcastle
union, whilst the valuation had decreased 25 per cent.,
ihe rate bad increased in the enormous proportion of
1,100 per cent. This exhaustion of lands in Ireland was
continually going on, and the facts he had adverted to
had a direct connexion with the question under consider-
ation; fir the House would find that this increase in the
rates was connected immediately with the question of
out-door relief. To provide a remedy for this vats of
things, he did not concur in the opinion of some Noble
Lords, who thought it advisable, and that it would be
sufficient to meet the exigency of the times, to abandon
the out-door relief system as soon as expediency and
humanity would permit. Neither did he think it would
bo advisable to proceed by Bill, because the Bill would
require much discussion, and if passed into law, would
require much time to bring into full working order.
Under these circumstances, he was decidedly of opinion
that the subject should be considered in the mean-
t time in the shape of a resolution, and that
the Poor-law Commissioners should be allowed
to give power to the boards of guardians, under
sealed orders, for one or two years, to giro relief,
In the neighbourhood of Castletown there were 30,000
acres thrown out of cultivation. One of the arguments
in favour of the poor-law was, that it would prevent
the influx of paupers into this country. Well, what had
been done since ? The Commissioners issued a sealed
order, that relief might be given to the wives and chil-
dren of men who had quitted the country in search of
work. This was an injustice to both countries. It sti-
mulated the immigration of Irish labourers upon the
overcharged labour market of this country, and imposed
anfadditional charge upon the country they left. He
thought the system would never work well until they
discontinued altogether out-door relief. It was said
that giving out-door relief preserved human life, but he
did not think it had any such effect. He would in sup-
port of his opinion, adduce the evidence of a Roman
Catholic priest, who stated that the people died by thou-
sands, and added, that he thought nearly as many died
as if there had been no out-door relief, and that much
less misery would have arisen if none had been given.
Now, this gentleman was originally in favour of out-
door relief. With regard to the debts of the unions—if
they left the causes which led to the accumulation of
those debts remain, it would be useless to pay them in
the first instance. On these grounds he supported the
views of his Noble Friend, and if he chose to divide he
would vote with him.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he concnrred with the
resolution of the Committee, but there was a material
difference between that resolution and the present. The
resolution proposed to allow a discretion to the Commis-
sioners to give the out-door relief, but this resolution ex-
cluded out-door relief altogether. Besides, the resolu-
tion of the Committee was prospective, whereas this re-
solution condemned what had been hitherto done. He
was convinced if the poor-law had never been introduced
into Ireland the evils which that country had suffered
would have been aggravated and increased. With re-
gard to the testimony of tho Roman Catholic priest
against out-door relief, it amounted to this, that there
had been a great loss of human life, but it was clear that
the loss of life must have been checked by the extent
of the relief afforded. He could not agree with the re-
solution.
Lord ABINGER said he was sure that the evils of
Ireland had been aggravated by the introduction of the
poor-law into that country. In fact,. he thought that
poor-laws were injurious to any country where they
were a 'opted. It bad the effect of lowering wages, and
discouraging the employment of capital. He thought
the poor-law might be alleviated by palliatives, but it
would not ever work well, because in its construction
they had abandoned a great principle.

The Earl of GLENGALL said he could not agree
with the Noble Marquis that there was a progressive im-
provement in Ireland. On good lands the taxation in
the south of Ireland was 275. an acre. The consequence
of this was that the good land was lying waste. In the
west of Ireland the case was hopeless. This state of
the law as regarded taxation produced emigration, and
the worst of the thing was, that the tenant farmers
were leaving the land and emigrating to America. The
recent laws had exhausted the stock of the farmer, and
this was the cause of the emigration that had taken
place. The labourers in Ireland were actually working
fit their diet. The case of the mercantile community
was almost as bad as that of the agriculturists, for the
former depended very much upon the latter. Merchants'
stores that used to be filled with flour, butter, and such
like produce, were now let out for auxiliary workhouses
and the circulation of money hail decreased one-half.
The Noble Earl read extracts from documents to show
that the occupiers of land in the province of Connaught,
who had to pay poor-rates, had not milk to drink with
their meals, and that the price of stock bad fallen less
than one-half.

The Earl of DEVON said, that the arguments of the
Noble Lord went the length of saying, that they ought
to alter the law by which the poor in Ireland, under
certain restrictions, should receive relief. He, for one,
could not consent to do this. Ho had the happiness to
state, that in the Newcastle Union a great improvement
had taken place. Did the present distress arise from
the permission to grant out-door relief under particu-
lar circumstances ? He denied that it did, and he con-
tended that more mischief had arisen from the mis-

management of the local authorities than from the state
of the Jay.—(Hear.)
The Earl of CLARE said the Noble Earl who last
addressed the House, was not in his place, when he
presented a petition, which stated that the poor-rates in
Newcastle were 15s. in the pound. If he hod been, he
would hardly have made the statement with which he
had favoured the House. There was no doubt that the
poor-law had produced great distress in Ireland.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE admitted that in
parts of Ireland great distress at present existed, but
the question now was, was Ireland in a state of dis,tre,s
equal to that which it had been in two years ago ? He
admitted that the local taxation was very heavy in Ire-
land, but would it be wise to adopt these resolutions for
the trifling advantage that would be gained by such a
course of proceeding? He warned them not to limit
the provision for the poor in Ireland, as it might lead
to a serious consideration of the subject in this country.
which could nut be advantageous to those who promoted
this discussion in that House.

Lord STANLEY said that in his opinion, after every
Member who had spoken in the debate had condemred
the principle of out-door relief, the speech of the Noble
Marquis himself was the most conclusive and convincing
of any he bad heard in favour of these resolutions. But
why did they refuse to adopt those resolutions? They
asked if it was consistent with humanity that, having
sanctioned the principle of out-door relief, they should
desist from extending it to those who required it. His
Noble Friend did not propose to act on the suggestion
implied by that question, but simply on the proposi-
tion which the Committee last year recommended,
upon which five Cabinet Ministers sat, that
no system of out-door relief could work well, as
one of pormaneet continuance. He did not wish to say
anything against the control vested in the Poor-law
Commissioners; but he had heard statements that night,
which, he thought would sound oddly in English ears.
When they heard of the exceptions taken by the Poor-
law Commissioners to the operations of the out-door-re-
lief system, they ought to feel strong doubts as to whe-
they could safely leave in their hands the discretion of
modifying it. They were told that the Commissioners
were anxious to reduce the expense of the out-door-re-
lief system, so as ultimately to do away with it altogether.
If that was the feeling of' the Poor-law Commissioners,
could there be a greater affirmation of the principle that
it was desirable and absolutely necessary to revert to a
sound system of out-door relief as soon as was consis-
tent with humanity, than the adoption of these resolu-
tions by their Lordships' House? He was glad to find
that her Majesty's Ministers did not mean to meet the
proposition with a decided negative—he was glad that
they had only met it by the previous question. But,
thinking no harm could arise by the affirmation of the
principle agreed to in Committee, and thinking that an
advantage would be gained by a re-affirmation of it, if
his Noble Friend divided upon the question, he should
divide with him.—(Fear.)
Earl GREY said he confessed he had heard with sur-
prise the speech of the Noble Earl who had just spoken,
especially that portion of it in which the Noble Earl
claimed the speech of the Noble Marquis, the President
of the Council, as being in favour of these resolutions.
He had always heard it said, and he did not doubt it,
that in England, as well as in Ireland, the system of
out-door relief was dangerous in the extreme, and ought
to be administered with great caution. But, holding
that opinion, he contended that there was nothing in it
which induced him to give his support to the proposition
befare their Lordships. He totally denied the truth of
those resolutions. They charged that the poor-laws
were the real cause of' all the calamities which
afflicted that country. That was an assertion con-
trary at once to fact and common sense. He be-
lieved, on the other hand, that the poor-laws had
tended much to mitigate them ; and he denied em-
phatically the sweeping censure which the Noble
Lord had passed upoa them. IF they were again
placed in the same situation of affairs which prevailed
in Ireland at the time that law was passed, he should
again give his support in favour of a proposition to
enact the same measure. In vindication of that opinion,
he maintained it to be a wise and just principle of legis-
lation; for it in fact declared that a severe visitation of
Providence should not be confined to the class upon
which its weight most heavily f4l, but should be divided
eivally between all classes. It was untrue, thertfere,
that the poor-law had been the cause of the distress
which now prevailed in Ireland; and the re volution being
also untrue in stating that it bad been the cause of bank-
ruptcy, and of entailing a burden upon Ireland which
Ireland was unable to bear, he should certainly oppose
it. A resolution, moreover, was not the proper mode of
effecting so great a modification of the principle of the
poor-law, that of refusing out-door relief, except in cases
where no other species of relief could be giver. The
poor-law authorities were governed by the law which
Parliament had made, aed it' that law required altera-
tion, which he maintained it did not, they would not be
bound by resolutions, which amounted ita fast to a Par-
liamentary censure on an Act, the utility and humanity
of which their Lordships could not but appreciate. For
those reasons be hoped the House would not give its
assent to these resolutions.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord LUC AN observed, that if the Noble Earl who
had just sat down was still prepared to support the Irish
poor-law, he was nearly the only Cabinet Minister who
was disposed to do so.
Lord BEAUMONT said that had it not been for the
speech of the Noble Earl below him he should have been
content to give a silent vote for the previous question,
and though he still intended to give his vote in support
of that alternative, he now wished to explain that he
did so on grounds totally different from those stated by
the Noble East; that the Irish poor-law, not perhaps of
itself alone, but at any rate when associated with other
causes, had produced ruin and bankruptcy he thought
was notorious, and he heard the Noble Earl with aston-
ishment deny Lot only that fact, but this also, that it had
driven capitsl out of the country. Why, fcozn having
the management of colonial affairs, no man ought to
know it better than he. The speech of the Noble Mar-
quis who preceded him was the enunciation of the most
sound wisdom and the most obvious truth. The Noble
Marquis exhibited in the strongest language toe evils of
the system of out-door relief; and if no other good would
result from this debate, he crustal that it would at least
serve to direct attention to the abuses which had pre-
vailed in the administration of the law. Ile thought it
woul2, however, be injudicious to adopt these resolu-
tions, as it might excite an expectation that they were
about immediately to make a change which it would be
more advisable to make at a later period.
The Earl of DES ART replied. He said, as be had a
concur-rent opinion against the principle of out-door rt -
lief, with but one exception, he should withdraw the re-
solutions. . . _

Ihe resolutions were accordingly withdrawn, and
their Lordships adjourned at ten o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 21.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Foar o'clock.
WRIT FOR SLIGO.
A new writ was issued for Sligo, to replace Mr. J. F.
Ffulliott, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
AGRICULTURAL PROTECTION.
Lord GALWAY presented several petitions from
agricultural places in Yorkshire in favour of protection.
SUNDAY LABOUR IN THE POST-OFFICE.
Numerous petitions were presented from different parts
of the country_ against Sunday labour in the Post-office.

EXTENSION OF THE SUFFRAGE.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Shoreditch,
signed by upwards of 16,000 persons, in favour.of an ex-
tension of the suffrage.
SECOND READINGS.
The following Bills were read a second time:—
Borough of Salford Waterworks and Improvement.
Childwall Waterworks.

Mr. HUME presented a petition numerously signed
from the letter-press printers of London, stating that
the present duty on paper prevented their obtaining
that employment which would arise from the issue of new
publications which several parties were ready to give.
They particularly complained of the evil eff,ct of the
stamp duty on newspapers.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir E. COLEBROOKE gave notice that he should
postpone the motion which stood in his name for that
night until that day fortnight.