The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-13 00:00:00

that the expenditure of the county rate was looked upon
with do trust; the salaries pail under it were excessive,
and there was no efficient audit whatever cf the county
expenditure. Now that teas the opinion the Com-
mission arrived at after the examination cf
parties who were the best qualified to give an
opinion upon the subject, and as that Commission felt
that there ought to be a mote stringent audit of the
county expenditure, how could the House refuse to pees
this Bill with any shadow of justice? What necessity
could there be for farther inquiry? Opinions might
differ upon the expediency of establishing popular con-
trol, but confirm the principle of this Bill, and leave
that question to be disposed of in Committee. For
his part he would give the ratepayers entire
control over the expenditure, but be the expediency of
that step what it might, something must he done to re-
move the distrust that at present was felt in the manage-
ment of the county rates. Nut a petition had been pre-
sented in favour of the Bill which did not express that
distrust, and he maintainel that after the expression of
that opinion they had nothing to do with the details, but
having confirmed the principle, leave it for a Committee
up stairs to determine in what manner that principle
should be carried out.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PACKE said that since the report of 1835, to
which the Hen. Gentleman who had just sat down re-
fereed, the power of the magistracy had been consider-
ably reduced; but, if it could be accomplished with safety,
he far one bad no objection that the magistracy should
be relieved altogether from the control of the expendi-
ture. This Bill, however, as it stood was quite im-
practicable, many of its claw es would give rise to much
jobbing, particularly on the part of boards of
guardian?, and instead of removing the existing
evils they were highly calculated to increase them.
The fact was, that the magistrates could do what they
liked with the rate. There were four heads under
which the county rate was expended. The first was
fur the protection of life and property, or in other
words, that portion which was appropriated to the pro-
secution of felons. The second was the direction and
government of lunatic asylums, and it was quite evi-
dent that these boards could have no possible con-
trol over the expenditure for that purpose.
The third head was the management of
bridges; and the fourth was the regulation
of the registration of voters. Such were the several
heads under which the county rate was expended, and he
could not possibly see how these county boards could
control any one of them. It was therefore idle
to reason upon the utility cf these boards. If the
county rate, indeed, could be collected in a way dif-
ferent from that which was adopted for the collection of
the poor-rate, he should be anxious to support the Blll—
hear)—but not seeing that such could be the case
he should oppcse it.—(llear, hear.)
life. HODGES said that he was quite anxious to
suppdet the Bill, ansio should certainly vote fur the second
reading, although there were several clauses in the Bid
which would feanaire much amendment.— (Hear.)
Sir J. GRAH-earJ said that his Lion. Friend below him
had rightly characterised this Bill as being an attempt
to institute a control by a poplar constituency over a
large expenditure. But then he had said, also, that the
passing of this Bill involved large changes. Why, he
must think that this was a very strange argument to use
in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) Was
the House of Commons so much unaccus-
tcmed to great changes that this should appear
alarming?—(Hear, hear.) Why, was not the change of
the municipal corporations throughout the whole of the
country, by which the whole of the town expenditures
were placed under the control of the ratepayers, a
Great change ?—(llear, hear.) Then the greatest of all
was the expenditure of the poor-rate, end yet that had
also been pLeed under the entrol of a popular consti-
tuency of the widest basis.—(hear, hear.) Well, looking
at these alterations, he must confess that the change
proposed by this Bill did not greatly alarm him.—
(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Gentleman had stated
that the county rates were expended under four Leeds;
but in this he must differ from him, for there were in
reality only three, those of bridges, prisons, and lunatic
asylums.—(Hear, hear) In all these matters it might
well be supposed, as indeed was the care individually,
that the House of Peers had a much deeper interest
than Members of the House c f Commons; but yet it
nevertheless had been discovered that it was advisable
to irepose a check in this instance, as in other cases,
upon the House of Peers, which was an irre-
sponsible body, by an elective assembly like the
House of Commons.—(hear, hear.) And so it was with
regard to the magistracy.—(Hear, hear.) In the county
with which he was connected, the county of Camber-
land, it bad le en customary for the magistrates to meet
with closed doom The public were excluded, and the
whole of the proceedings were conducted in privacy,
until, at last, it was found necessary to pass a
Bill, which had probed very salutary in its effect,
and which rendered it compulsory on the magis-
trates to transact their business in open court.
He was not pre pared to say that tie details of the Bill
were of such a nature as to effect a salutary change, but
the question now was, whether the time had not now
arrived when they should endeavour to intro-
duce a better system for the management of
county rates, and whether they should not, by
voting for the second reading to-day, give
their sanction to some such principle as that involved in
the Bill. As far as that went he would not hesitate to
vote for the second reading. He was not prepared to
pledge himself to the details, but he understood the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson) was ready to refer the Bill
to a Select Committee, fairly and impartially constituted,
and if that Committee amended the Bill in its most ob-
jectionable parts he had no doubt that it would then well
deserve the serious consideration of the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY said he was prepared to give his
cordial support to the Bill, and he rejoiced to find that
the Right Hon. Baronet concurred in the views which he
took with respect to a more efficient control of the ex-
penditure of counties. Although he believed that the
magistrates had acted conscientiously, yet they did not
give satisfaction to the ratepayers, who felt they ought
to have some representative control over the expenditure
of the rates, instead of entrusting it, as at present, to
an irresponsible body.
Mr. SPOONER still retained the opinion that the
ratepayers ought to have a control over the county ex-
penditure, and thought the only question be fore the
House was as to the adoption of some plan by which
that principle could ba carried into effect with the
greatest certainty. But, although he entertained
that opinion, he greatly doubted whether the
object which the Hon. Gentleman opposite had in
view would not be delayed by sending the Bill be
fore a Committee. He would advise his Hon. Friend
(Sir J. Pakington) to withdraw his amendment, and
suggest further that the Bill should also be withdrawn,
and that a Select Committee should be appointed to
consider, without being shackled or encumbered by a
Bill, the best course which could he adopted to effect a
reasonable control on the part of the ratepayers.
Sir G. GREY said the principle of the Bill was the
formation of county financial boards based on the repre-
sentative principle.—(Hear.) To that general principle
he would give his concurrence, but he was bound to
state that very great difficulties would arise in
carrying it ioto effect by n_eens of a Bill. He
differed very much from many of the details,
some of which were of a very important nature, and
thought the Bill could only be made acceptable to the '
House after due inquiry and very great caution. He
clearly understood now that if it were read a second
time, his Right Honourable Friend was willing to
refer it to a &lea Committee in order that
the details should undergo thorough investigation, and
there was certainly an advantage in that course as com-
pared with that of the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J.
Pakington). The mode and periods of election, the
nature of qualification re quired in regard to the mem-
bers of these new county boards, were all matters of de-
tail, which might be considerably modified in Corn •
mince. It was to be understood that he did not
support this Bill owing to any charge which had been
made against the magistrates for want of attention to
their duties, for he knew from his own experience that
they had dune their utmost to combine economy with
efficiency in the discharge r f their labours. The prin