The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MAY 14, 1844.

lidating the state of the law of property. He (Lord
Brougham) had spoken of cligesting not only the
statutary law, but the common law, and thought the
statement he had made of the dilfuied condition of the
statute law was sufficient to show that the common law
ought not to be exclude.: froei the operat:on of his
Motion. The dictum was that a:I LICTi should obey this
law. yet it was embodied in no less than 150,000 closely
Printed pages, which was elucidated by an index with
no less than 1,150 pages. He thought it was a
most painful thing to judges to have to
depend, in deciding upon those cases; upon
eir own discretion ; what he wanted was to have
some fixed rule by which judges were to decide, be-
cause he was 'confident that the crimes of murder, arson,
treasoa, and such like, were the same now as during the
days of coke. A judge should be alone influenced by
what was the actual law as declared by the Legislature,
end not be induced to declare what law was. Let their
Lordships suppose a case wherein a judge had to
decide a,,question in relevance to which no statute law
had been enacted. What was his position ? Why, ho
11131:d to consult the reports of all the decisions which
re the slightest analogy to that particular case, and
there he was left to grope in the dark through all those
eases, in order that he might find something like
that which .was under his consideration: The
eimsequence of all this was inextricable dis-
Pules ,and difficulties. During fifteen years
of his life, he had had opportunities of being impressed
viith the cogency of those arguments; and, in making
this assertion he was fully borne out by M. Dupin, the
celebrated French writer upon criminal jurisprudence.
The Noble and Learned Lord then read a quotation
from MeDupin's pamphlet, in 'which he stated that the
greatest benefit had resulted from the formation of a cri-
minal code in France.) This gentleman, it must be re-
membered ".as
‘‘‘.sas•aiaoriginally far from being enamoured of.
sceptic on the sel'eject. Experience,
.:lf:teve.f.h. ad taught him better. To show the necessity
code,-hethe would inform their Lordships that
Criminal Law Commissioners had collected no less
.11:11 thirteen definitions of the crime of theft.. There
Zerie 1540 statutes in force, 658 repealed, or supposed to
itoorajed- There were 142 repealed, or repealed by
an ; 234 of. what was called obsolete statutes,
altogeth-te",,s/Pilea; being 3,354. Acts of Parliament
rePealcd s4e-' °!t, of those repealed, or supposed to be
ten weeiireet.atel s. .142' were doubtful. No man could
There was, for
-14,2 were or were not repealed.
ete, as, for instance the 3d and 4th Edward VI.,
"*P• Wbiele,„ 0
SOn •to have . made 'it a very. grave offence for a per-
111,4nspoesession images taken, from a church,
are. - -er.—ercnul provision,
,"-except Noble Lords, who
ire 4ints"--(Latigliter)-,ser that if he (Lord
e laughttin were to buy an image which came out of_ a
ealls...tinder. this statute, which was not repealed, he
--wit be • • Then there was an • Act in ex-
at.' P11(11544. • fah -
ee.„ellbe Which provided punishment or fund and p an
L.741(1 're' p.` ts..to stir up faction." This Act might be
re'ught'evv ithfOrce against Many of their Lordships.—
( rite ughtei.) There were Acts, 26th Henry VIII., and
sth and 6th "Edward VI., by which it was made treason
call the Sovereign an infidel, so that 140 years aco,
under this Act,- it would, have been treason to speak the
trith, and have said of William 111., that he was a
aellinuatist. The Noble and Learned Lord then enume-
,eeritted Several other obselete statutes, respecting which,
4 dinibt 'existed as to whether they had been re-
DallDalld or not. One was to prevent corn being exported
to the price was above 6s. Bd. the quarter ; another
Prevent the importation of foreign cards for wool-
cavdinehillineg,aand a third was for the purpose of imposing. a
neon all persons neglecting to attend their parish
coetiu-r,eir on a Sunday. This' statute- was supposed to be
lets.er ?.eielentil.te short time ago, alien it was brought
beee In - Lancashire. Three men were brought
eCte the Magistrates for poaChing on a Sunday, but
e'case was not made out against them. Before how-
thetkeY Were discharged, one of the justices inquired of
seirsodere if they had been to church the previous
then.;te, and' finding that they had not, he sentenced
thc7,,___''u a fine of eleven shillings each, and costs, and
%ease wets suffered an imprisonment of eleven weeks in
d'eniecleu„ence. He (Lord Brougham) in his letter, to Sir
eau;',.raham last year, mentioned this circumstance,
"' "'light- Hon. Friend of his, shortly after the pubis-
°h of the letter, wrote to him (Lord Brougham) to
.ix, that the printer had made
_.one of the greatest
as- that printer ever made, for he had printed
eipeets,chseulgs" for " preaching."-L-(Laughter.) ,But what
re" 'r-e_Pooper's, his (Lord Brougham's) friend's sur-
waelthe was inforthed that the printer was right.
rein* 1,°Per believed, when he read the letter, that.thi e
been fined for preaching in some conventicle.
That• waa another absurdity in our statute book, and
diLeseeLasa.thermanner in which the various Acts were
the. folio .an the. 31st of George the Second, ch. 83,
..Itnee wing thingi were all found together ;
et -.for Preventing trading by bankrupts ; for pee-
Cit Iluu-se as to the admeasurement-of coals in the
tee3;:eq!!ondon and Liberty of Westminster; and for
40414111 g. the stealing -or destroying madder roots..
.1.--4 Ct in. the same reign, the 29th George IL,
thegultg 'places of entertainment, for regu-
1104:bur
Pln of gorse,- ler regulating thserderly
(Lune,' "'I :chilli to attorneys and solicitors.—
They then Came to the 22d George 11.,
Thanies.,,ll Int-exestvations along the shores of the River
amending the laws regulating attorneysefboer
e'the assize of bread, for making roads in
thteicuelaeteel:teie „17ge:alatine of Lancester and Chester, and to preeent
of-pere.7q of infeetion amongst horned cattle. In the reign
ee”..8:111 Vie it was laid . down by the oracles of :the
deer ;, an Act was not.te be taken as dated from the.
sew,: "as passed, but as dated from the first day of the
th'whichit was passed. An Act was passed by
.4.rte'i it was made pehal to import foreign goods iof a
e rt description after the date of • the Act A man-
Acted a quantity of these goods before date of the.
iieeee but la , was, however,, prosecuted under it, fluid
rolirtizhaed, Ilibagh he import passedted.his goods i in
'The rY, and the Act was u o
l'Fa until May.
see was moved upon a writ of error,
to ei
Lordships'
House, and the twelve Judges in
`4. "were consulted, and they gave. it as their:
on the judgment of the Court in Ireland ought
and it was
.confirmed accordingly.--7
terfee" )• ~This was a part of that which was termed
n-fq„,n clf. human reason. In the 13th year of
nzabeth, of blessed memory, an Act was
Ihlll:aee,,;•'`rpg that any, erson should he liable to. int-
lnter t '"" a'nudared to take more than ten per cent. as
" °f MO• in
That f, 4e3r. The olause ran these words :
elves
of ',Jlts
17, 'each as:all nsury, being forbidden by the
'tll 'rod, is detestable; therefore be it enacted, that
usury,.:titei that is loans of money with above ten per
.ntettese..,
Shall- be pimiShed in manner following—
ehtt:iig to
whOeVer receives a sum beyond that for
itt-e,"41 Pay it back upon action being brought."
—w- ,:was in existence at this ve hour.
ie 'Judgesein all cases in which it was attempted to
• :14 these obsolete laws into effect were obliged. to .be
'hoe"e „41,..struments ; they were obliged to help the man
.'to to ensnare others in the meshes of the
eleeA to
tor,h who in the heat of revenge had
• dee ed the pid vier into life and mischief. Whether
..,711, foe' reant'made a foul defence,'or.the plaintiff brought
13111-,ets4arge, the judges were obliged to aid them. The
he- asked :their' Lordships to read a second
Prium—efested the criminal statute law, and: unfolded the
upon which that digest of the criminal-law was
dee es
All the stattites all the judicial decisions, all the
ofr d and,vthetes bo'oks, had been carefully weighed
rt
jnoins
idefrom the light derived from these
-;etatntrseurces, the enactments of this Bill, which he
• thee'7. them to pass into a law, had been framed. If
hree'-ucceiniplished that great work, they would reduce
I,,iinie:digeited body, luminous' in its diction, clear and
• tate' in 'its arrangement, symmetrical in.. its form,
attee r.e4liketti4 UnderstOod, easily remembered by the
Acts e„,,e;
gee
.who have to obey, by the counsel who were
Teereui—nester,_and by the judges who were to decide, the
ie'erimihal law of .the country.. They would; by so
e-endg, confer on their country an inestimable blessing,
, gkaron;tthheeraselves lasting renown, realising the-wish of
Saxon King, that the laws.of Britain should
• ''•
'th ueand up in small compass, like' unto a faggot, that.
'there
,s,leh they might be the:better kept together—realising
toue74Bt of .Bacon to his Sovereign, that he would do
..Liiitituera,rtoryhinisgreign by a .work useful to his country—
out the sentiments of the highest legal
e; eater? of
these realms, the great Lord . Coke, that a
aeneeee 11ws, digested, and methodized, and reduced to.
th, —Ha,. articles, as these were, was a work well worthy
e
• , (Su ,
and one which would confer lasting benefit
• -hue reigned in
wish of the first Stuart who
--e:gned in this country, who was the enemy to
• • pree: Innovation, end the friend to • every established
evp.olvertreiyof
trbition, who had said that such a work were
the summoning of A Parliament to sit if it
'llitteel!ly for that ;. realising the wish of Sir Mathew-
leitiost venerable of -legal 'authorities,' who coni-
in. his turn of the unnecessary accumulation of
:4.l‘,llol_°OkS, small as their numbers were in his day, but
ca had not lived. to see the process of accumulation
.• ide„en °n-as it had been in our times but who, had paid,
e seietng, to the comparatively small mass of law hooks
thel, his own clays, that it would be a work worthy
•. thoce- ranee and of the country, to make one clear me-
pee. leardigest of the whole ; doing a work which, had
. the attention of' all classes of statesmen, roni
andrBe/elel'and Atkins, and Whitelocke, down to Barebones
• kieee lirrlsoile as a living kind of intellect, from the
rettt to the loweshad felt •the necessity of accom-
'oetiu:ng thee.,
great work; 'doing a work, which both
• °f • Parliament, in 1816, in an unanimous
•;
dela recommended Should be done without
the P. and
.which the great criminal law reformer,
:1Y able of the present day, had alone been
47:11-ahhit to accomplish, and who had said that high
on, and large official influence, was chiefly to
troPelzed because it enabled thoSe who- ssessed them to
. so !11Icheicts is these.—(Hear, hear.) ,The subject was
/mPor
tant that. he would not apologise for having de-
tsaeied.them, but would beg of them to give the Bill a
l:lueleTaidmininigtt'eientioprdstearirst.hat it might be referred to a
' The
•. e. e esoRD
bt ee- CHANCELLOR would not then follow
warned Friend' through his able, eloquent, and com-
' Prelse •
nsive speech; he thought the Bill ought to be read
eeeee4
to die, .til#e• The Commissioners had been required
eet their attention-Ist; to a digest of the statute
2dietoeseonsolidatioamf-the common law, as it re-,
‘.17-114,ed the . criminal jurisprudence of the kingdom ;
d, .to consider the expediency of combining
Ziayikttlelnto ode statute. They had considered it ex-
"vre__444teeo tie do, and that was the foundation of 'the
eeetit Bill. There could be no doubt as to the ex-
. idin,leinnaerstaorttuhteatispwarit of the Bill which digested the
and repealed those contradictor
.i.ZeLabs,olete.enactmenta which were a disgrace to they
th...,in,:ge.iplooesoantt,dbruutlewsiothf
commont ega r d tolaaw,consolidation of the.
he had thought it
• ._lit'ttuty to !make inquiries of persons employed in the,
,ilZl:lasstration -of justice upon that point, and the ques-
(me of so much doubt and difficulty that he
• Ahould advise their Lordships to pause before adopting
those suggestions. The principles by which the common
' eev;t ewas at present administered were derived from the
e. 1%00h% and were applied by the judges to the circum-
:ii!Aceg of various cases as they came before them.

Yow. it required much consideration before he
could consent to sul.vcrt such a system, and
substitute in its place fixed and invariable
vales. Ile must be satisfied that those rules were so
comprehensive as to embrace the whole of the principles
of the system which it was intended to subvert. He be-
lieved his Noble and Learned Friend would not admit the
policy of abolishing the system, unless he were satisfied
upon that point. Ile did not think that much benefit
would be derived from sending the Bill to a Select Com.
mittee up stairs. He would advise his Noble Friend to
have the Bill read a second time—to let it stand over—
and early next session to have it re-produced. In the
meantime, the Government would devote its attention to
the subject, and persons would be employed, he hoped
with the concurrence and co-operation of his Noble
Friend—(" Hear, hear," from Lord Brougham)—to go
through all the details, so that the country should have
a sufficient guarantee that the rules would
be comprehensive enough to embrace every case
which it was intended
.they should meet. An-
other reason why he wished for delay was,
that the Commissioners were at this moment employed
in examining a very important branch of this subject,
he meant that which related to trial and procedure. In
a short time they would have completed their labours,
and the result would be that in the same measure they
might be able to consolidate forms of proceeding—a
most important branch of the subject. Ile certainly
thought the Bill was well entitled to be read a second
time, for it was highly desirable that they should have a
digest of the statute criminal law.
Lord DENNIAN expressed his concurrence in what
had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend. There
was one -object, however, of his Noble and Learned
Friend's Bill which he thought ought to be accomplished
without delay—he meant the repeal of those obsolete and
barbarous laws, the continuance of which was a disgrace
to the criminal code, and he trusted that what had fallen
from his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack
would not prevent any Noble Lord, nor any Member of the
other -House of Parliament from introducing measures for
the repeal of those laws. A case, had been alluded to in
which a magistrate had been called upon to execute a
law which ought at once to be repealed. A Noble Lord
had also brought forward the case of the laws relating to
forestalling and vegrating—that was an important exam-
ple of evil legislation: Mr. Burke, in 1773, had brought
in .a Bill which was supposed to have swept away all
those absurdities ; still it appeared there was common
law enough left to punish any one carrying on trade in
the way trade was usually carried on, as though he
were guilty of a misdemeanour. The Noble Lord's Bill
ouldalso do away with those enactments which subjected
those persons most w4justly to punishment who departed
from the established religiou of the country—laws
which the great majority of mankind did not know were
in existence, and of which those who were the most ig-
norant were the most likely t.-) suffer by their execu,
tion. -He was pleased to find that the attention
of the Legislature had been directed to the consolidation
and simplification of the criminal code. He was a little
afraid, however, that their Lordships might be misled
into the idea that they were now applying a most effec-
tual remedy to a very great evil. Ilis Noble and Learned
Friend bad alluded to the great accumulation of law
reporti. Parliament itself had been accessory in some
degree to that accumulation. It had passed a vast
number of new laws of late years, in a great proportion
of which. the construction was by no means easy, and
the interpretation anything but clear, and certainly of
late years the judgments of the Courts had been reported
much more fully and much more accurately than they
had been formerly.. ,But the decisions on questions re-
lating to criminal law formed the smallest portion of
this accumulation. However, he considered that the
passing of this Bill would be a great public good,
and would remedy a pressing evil, by -sweeping
away from the Statute-book those dreadful, scandalous,
and oppressive enactments, which would disgrace the
law of the present day. He considered it his duty 0
state that, in his opinion, their Lordships and the coun-
try owed a debt to the Commissioners who had devoted
so much time and so much labour to the improvement of
the law of their country, and he considered that the pub-;
lication of the law in this manner, digested under dif-
ferent heads, would be of the greatest use, not only to
those who were called upon to administer the law, but
to all who had to 'obey it. He could not conclude .with-
out expressing a deep sense- of gratitude towards the
Commissioners who- had been engaged in this investi-
gation.
Lord CAMPBELL thought it was a disgrace to this
country that they could not refer, through the medium
of chapters and sections, to the particular crimes and
punishments attached to them. This was a matter of
great importance, not alone with respect to the statute
law, but also akregarded the common law. But still, he
thought his Noble and Learned Friend near him (Lord
Brougham) had overstated the existing evils ; for the
defeerwas; -that they wete continually- multiplying, the
laws until at length they became involved in •obscurity.
In France. cveryprovince 'had had separate and distinct
laws, but that was done away with, much to the benWit
of the- country:, .by the Code Napoleon. As an illustra-
tion of his point, he would ash his Noble and Learsied
Friend, what could be more essential than to bave a legal
definition of the word conspiracy? He agreed with his
Noble and Learned -Friend.who had just sat down as to
the merits of the Commissioners. He certainly- did think
that this 'was a measure which should be brought! in
upon the responsibility of the Government alone.
After a few 'words from Lord- BROUGHAM in 'ex-
planation,
The LORD CHANCELLOItsaidhe thought it would
be as well if tbe,matter rested with the Cominissioners,
who had the best opportunities of becoming conversant
with the bearings of the case. No persons could possibly
have discharged a difficult and arduous duty more effec-
tually than they did. • •
The Bill was then read a second time,- and their
Lordshipauclj owned.

counties,

the regulation -of the boundaries of boroughs and

A RT-UNION S.
Mr. WYSE gave notice that on Wednesday next
e should move for a Select l'emmittee on the subject
of Art-Unions.
FACTORIES BILL.
Lord C. MANNERS presented a petition from
Tenlib in favour of a Ten Hours Bill.
PRIVILEGE.—THE BRIDPORT PETITION.
Mr. B. COCHRANE rose to state to the Hon.
Member for Rochdale (Mr. S. Crawford) the result
of a communication he had received from Bridport
in reference to the petition. He had requested the
names of those who wore supposed to have signed
the petition, to be forwarded to him, this had been
done ; and it was distinctly stated that they were
totally opposed to the prayer of the petition.
He would read to the House the letter he had re-
ceived. It stated that Mr. Crawford had presented
a petition on the Bth of March, 1844, purporting to
be from the inhabitants of Bridport, praying that the
supplies for the army and navy might be stopped
till the grievances of the people were redressed. The
persons who signed the letter, stated that they denied
having ever signed the petition, or having authorised,
any person to sign it on their behalf, as the senti-
ments entertained were contraryto their opinions. They
requested him (Mr. Cochrane) to bring the matter
before the House. He did not know that it was of
sufficient importance to do so, but he was bound to
consult the wishes of his constituents.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he was now pre-
pared to give the Hon. Gentleman some further in-
formation on the subject. He had that morning
received a letter from a gentleman named Northwell,
who wrote to him in consequence of what had taken
place in the House on the subject. That gentleman
stated that he got up and forwarded the petition ;
he stated that he himself had witnessed the greater
number of the signatures, but that a person was
employed to carry about the petition, who was not
at present in the borough ; he said he would make
every inquiry on the subject, but was not aware of
any person having signed the petition for another. With
regard to himself, he thought the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite was imposing too much on Members when he
said they should inquire into the names of those who
sent petitions to them. It would be impossible for
him to inquire into the names of those who signed the-
petitions sent to him ; but at the same time he was
anxious that the petitions he presented should be in=
vestigated.

WALES.
Colonel WOOD wished to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
Department when it was the intention of the Govern,
ment to originate any Bill founded upon the report of
the Commission which sat last year in Wales ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said a Bill was in course of
preparation, founded on the report of the Commissioners ;
it was already in an advanced stage, and he hoped to
introduce it next week.
THE FACTORIES BILL.—MR. LIDDELL.
Mr. LIDDELL said, however reluctant he was to
take up the time of the House on a personal matter,
yet he found himself so sharply attacked in the
newspapers of that day—(Great laughter)—
for a crime of which he was supposed to have been
guilty, that he must take that opportunity
of setting himself right, in a few words, with the
House and with the public.—(Laughter.) In the
columns of the •Times, he was asked if he could pos-
sibly be aware of the baseness of his conduct
(Great laughter)—and the Morning Herald said that
he bad not only made shipwreck of his own character,
but also of that of his party.—(Roars of laughter from
the Opposition benches.) It was all very well fer
Hon. Gentlemen to laugh ; but it must be recollected
that these newspapers exercised a considerable in-
fluence over the public mind—(Hear, hear)—and
those were rather hard words to apply to a Mem-
ber of that House, who gave a perfectly conscientious
and independent vote.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to
take that opportunity of repeating what he had stated
at the outset of the observations which he made
on Friday last, that during the whole of the
discussion which had taken place on that subject pre-
vious to that evening, he had never on any one occa-
sion, either by his vote or his language, given sty
person the slightest encouragement to suppose that he
would support the proposition of a Ten Hours' Bill.
ADJOURNED DEBATE--FACTORIES
BILL.
On the Order of the Day for resuming the ad-
journed debate on this Bill being read,
Mr. M. MILNES said, that if he had been aware
that any other Hon. Member wished to adjourn the
debate, he would not have trespassed on the
attention of the House on a question which had
already been sufficiently debated. He desired, how-
ever, -to have an opportunity of expressing to her
Majesty's Government his regret for the words which
he had used on a former occasion, in the
heat of debate, and which, upon calm
reflection, he thought were disrespectful.
As far as those words were disrespectful, he begged
to offer to her Majesty's Goiernment, and particu-
larly to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, the most ample
apology. He was also most anxious to express
to the House his adherence to a phrase which fell
from ]aim on a former occasion, a phrase by
which, grave as it was, he was prepared to
stand to—he meant the phrase, " The national
guilt of the unrestricted factory system." lie would
ask the House to remember the words which were
used by his Right Hon. Friend the late President of
the Board of Trade, the Hon. Member for Taunton,
who told them that, if their principles were just,
they had incurred ,great national guilt b not en-
forcing them sooner. He would ask any on. Mem-
ber of that House who was familiar with foreign
countries, whether the English factory system was• not
regarded by the whole of Europe as a great evil?
He would ask whether, in return-for all the obloquy
which u e cast on America for her slavery, we were
not told -to . look to our factory system at
home, and to get rid of our white slavery, before
we reproached them for their black slavery ?
There might be, in that reproach, much jealousy of
England and spite towards our commercial great-
ness. There was a time when our commer-
cial interests were represented as ' the factory
system now was. Even the poet Cowper
employed his talents to render our commerce
odious. It was true that the cause of all that obloquy
was our dealings in the slave trade, and did-they-not
remember that when some of the best men of the
country were labouring to procuarregutmheentasboalnitdionstaof
that • trade, they were met by
tistics to prove that all the great interests involved
in our commerce would be destroyed. The same
arguments were now used against the abridgment of
children's labour in the factories, but he could not be-
lieve that they would not
prove equ ally
Shouldthat House, which voted 20,000,000/. of the moe-
ney of the country to procure the abolition of slavery
unfoundd.
in our own colonies, and in doing so risked the
security of the great- and important West India in-
terest—should they hesitate to abolish every trace of
slavery at home? •But:what was slavery ? -It was when
a human being held his life at the will of another.
Now what was life ? It was the living hour—it was
the power of religious instruction and moral educa-
tion ; this it was shat constituted the difference be-
tween the man and the slave. It became, them, there-
fore, to remove the evils that were existing in factories
with the same earnestness as they had set about re-
moving slavery. His Noble Friend had brought this
question forward, because it was impossible by any
other
.means that education could be given to the
young in factories. They might do all they could to
Ore education and recreation ; but if they continued
the system that existed with respect to young
people in - factories they never could derive any
benefit.—(Hear; hear.) It was said that labour
alone was the property of the poor man ; he denied
that—he had a property as well as others in the bless-
ings of education and of life. The Hon. Member,
having adverted to several of the, cases which had
been quoted on Friday night by the President
of the Board of Trade, observed that he con-
sidered that the Right Hon. Baronet might as
well Set up 'every tenth day as the Sabbath, as
he might speak in favour of this measure. He
considered his Noble Friend had made out an a priori
case, and he believed no one, with the exception of the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Tower Hamlets,
was of opinion that the factories in this country were
an Arcadia. It was a pity they were not so.
Every one had agreed that, supposing wages were
not diminished, there would be an advantage in the
women and children of the working classes having
their two hours each day. They had been met by
the declarations of the unadvised ability of interfering,
but that abstract question had been disposed of for
ever, by the enormous majority of that House. The
principle of protection had been admitted, and
the question was how far it should go. It had,
been asked why they should interfere in this
subject and not elsewhere. They were bound tointerfere
because they had the power, and with the power in:
curred the responsibility. All legislation consisted of
interference. He instanced the late interference with
the operation of Art-Unions, and the stopping of the
old system of lotteries. Again, the very violent, but
very proper interference of the police the other night
with the gaming-houses at the West-end. Was not
that an interference with labour ?—(Great laughter.)
It was an interference with policy if not with labour.
In the present ease • it-was the people who called on
them to interfere. With respect to the effect of inter.,
ference on wages, he understood that one of the largest
firms existing in England 'had come to the
conclusion that they could work their machinery
sixteen hours a day by two relays of men of eight
.hours each, and that they would be enabled to make
the same profits as they now did, and to give the same
wages for 0414 ho4ra' labour as they now did for twelve.
Tie) manufacturers might at first he ttzi pay
the same amount of wages when the time was re,
(laced, but be believed they would 60 so 14 the end;

andthe laboiders MVO the+eliFs "icrellins-r le-chance
the reduction of wages. If lie had studied political
economy at all—(A. laugh)—ha knew of how much
importance it was to ascertain the limits of the
subject, and that there were some questions to which
it was inapplicable. If a reduction of two hours took
place, itiwould he of little use to the labourers if
means were not devised by which they might spend
them profitably; and he was confident that the eminent
maintalacturers of the country—such men as the Mar-
shells, the Gregs, the Ashtons—would find-a means
of making it profitable to them. The importance of
the foreign market had been dwelt upon, but from
the improvements which were every day taking place
in ma-Aiinery, and the facilities which were af-
forded for its exportation, it would be impos-
sible for them to hold the exclusive market of the
world. If the Government thought it of
such importance, why did they not take off the duty on
raw cotton ? The Covernment had placed themselves
in a wrong position before the country with regard
to this measure. They were accused of inhumanity,
and want of feeling towards the working classes,
but how much was this at variance with the great
provisions of the present Bill ? By taking a different
course, they might have avoided placing themselves in
such a position. Protection to the factory worker
was now equivalent to a Ten Hours' Bill, and a Ten
Hours' Bill they declared they would have. Petitions
had been presented to that House against such a me:.
sure by 360 masters. What must be the feelings of
the workmen towards those 360 masters who
petitioned against them ? The Government declared
they had gone car enough, and would not go any further.
It would have been better for the Government to
withdraw the Factories Bill than refuse to go further.
But they knew the necessity for having this Factories
Bill ; they knew that all the assertions about non-
interference were unmeaning and vague, and that a
Factories Bill was as necessary for the country
as any Bill which could be brought before ,
the House. Believing, confidently, therefore, in
the successful result of this measure, whether then
or at some future period ; and agreeing with
the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland that
the people of England had never determined to have
any great measure of a social or political nature
which they did not ultimately gain, he hailed this '
Bill as the harbinger of a better system of legislation
than had hitherto prevailed ; he hailed. that confusion
of parties which they then witnessed as something
better than the banding of Honourable Mem-
bers for the purpose of misrepresenting their
opponents. •He saw banded together on that
occasion a large body, of men, who were more
regardful of the social interests of the people
than of any political consequences. He did be-
lieve that that Bill would lead to many im-
portant results. He did believe that if, on the
question of the corn-laws, it were distinctly made out
that the repeal of those laws would be for the benefit
of the mass of the people, the corn-laws would
be repealed.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
He believed that that and all other great social
questions which came before them would have a
better chance of coming within the dominion of argu-
ment, and that the people would repose in that House
such confidence as had never been reposed in it
since the time of the Reform Bill. There was one
other subject upon which he would touch
very lightly, on account of its delicacy. Some Hon.
Members had declared their intention of voting that
night differently from what they had voted on other
occasions. He was not going to make himself
their censor ; but he implored them to remember
that in the opinion of the whole country they would
for the future be marked men, and that the factory
question would heneeforth be regarded in con-
nexion with their names.—(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government had
told them that three months hence all those Hon.
Members who upbtaided her Majesty's Government
with their obstinacy would admire ther firm-
ness, and applaud their consistency. Now he
believed that her Majesty's Government would reemrd
with more respect those Majesty's
Gentlemen who held fast
to their purposes, and maintained_ their principles,
than those who, for the mere sake of saving them
from some, momentary inconvenience, should that
night either remain away, or register their votes
against the proposal which they had supported on
former occasions.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD said- the Hon. Gentleman who had ,
had resorted to amost juSt addressed the con-
venientHouse-
mode of settling this vexat a questio. He had
assumed that an a priori case had been made out in
favour of his Noble Friend's Bill. He said that
men on both sides agreed that if the Bill could be
passed without reducing the remuneration of labour,
or diminishing the wealth of the country, it was
most desirable that it should be passed. -Why that
was a truism in which Members on both sides of
the House concurred; but the question was, whe-
ther- the proposed remedy would not aggravate the
evil? The Honourable Gentleman said the question of
adult labour had been settled by a majority of that
House. Why the House had formerly decided that a
pound note and a shilling were worth 275. It had for-
merly settled the wages of tailors at 2s. s;d. under or-
dinary circumstances, and ss. 7d. in cases of mourning.
But in six years this was repudiated as in-
jurious to the interests of all. The Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milnes) justified his ar-
dent desire to interfere, because the House had
the power. But was it not necessary to look to
the right before they exercised the power—(Hear)—
and ought they not to look also to the probable con-
sequences ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
said that political economy was a very ill-used science
_:-that feW understood the proper limits within
which it should be restrained. He knew that this ques-
tion no longer admitted of going much into detail. The
House was tired of it ; and for that reason, on a former
night, he was restained from replying to the arguments
on both sides of the House, although he had much pro-
vocation to do so. His Hon. Friend the Member for
Weymouth had reproached the political philosophers
as cold-blooded theorists who treated men as if they were
mere machines, or as pieces of wood upon a skittle-board,
to be knocked clown as if they had no sense or feeling.
--(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Nottingham said
b
in favour of the Bill, but now he came
round d d with him (Mr; Ward), being convinced,
that he
a threen haytoitm longees chimneys and political economy, and
voted
as he said, of his argument. That showed that he voted
first, and reflected afterwards.—(Laughter.) The Hon.
Gentleman always ridiculed the theorists, but what4as
theory, after all. but to consider, before you do any-
thing, what its effects
might be-?—(Hear, hear.) But he
had observed that those friends of humanity never car-
ried their principles beyond the point where they began
to affect their own interests. Now, what was the best,
aid first best thing to be done, for the working classes—
was it not to give them food ?--(Hear, hear.) Ba the
moment any attempt' was made to render food cheap
and abundant, some one or other of those friends of hu-
manity stood up
and said, No, no, we cannot allow
that to be touched." His Hon. Friend the Member for
Weymouth (Mr. Bernal) exclaimed, when they proposed
to give the working classes cheap sugar, "Oh no, I am
connected with the ,West Indies, and I cannot allow
nevert:he
osatiiide side.
that."—(A laugh.) -
IMr. i
13WEARRNDAIr -SO! onof the House, they
were met by the cry, "Agriculture must be protected,'
when they attempted to give Cheap and abundanticorn
to the people.-:-(c keen..
) On a former occasion he had
accused the Noble Lord (Ashley) in rather strong berms.
of .misrepresentations and exaggeration, not that ex-
aggeration was his 'intention, but because the evi-
dence from • which he quoted was contradititory;
and the Noble Lorrt
naturally enough read the evidence
that was most'in favour of his own views. Nothing
could be more contradictory than the evidence of clergy-
men, physicians, and lawyers. That was not to be won-
dered at ; for you can prove almost anything by getting
up a commission, and allowing a few clever physiCians,
clergymen, and lawyers to manage it. There was no-
thing that could not be proved by a commission Of in-
quiry. He remembered that one medical man proved
that the tailors were, as a body; liable to nearly all the
diseases that could afflict humanity ; yet the tailors them-
selves being indignant, proved that, as a body, they wete
remarkably active, fond of athletic giunes, and furnished
one of the finest bodies of men to the army.—(Hear,
hear.) ' Other trades were treated in the same manner. ;
all were found to be liable to some peculiar maladies, and
he believed the healthiest were stated to be slaughter-
house men and tallow welters.—(Laughter.) This
showed they ought sometimes to distrust these reports.
They ought not to do anything to disgat 'men with
labour. He was far from' wishing that the condition of
the people should not be improved, and he believed it
was capable of improvement ; but it was by
ameliorations of their fiscal system, more in
the power of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
than a ten hours' clause in an Act of Parliament. Fac-
tory labour must be compared with that of other classes,
and it would then be found that there were other classes
which had still stronger claims to protection. There
were the female nailers of Sedgeley, and the young late
makers of Buckinghamshire. Then let them look at what
was doiug in this town ; look at Bethnal-green, at St.
Giles's, and other places ; look at the maids of all work
of the metropolis, who worked more than fourteen hours
a-day, and who had not the Sunday, which the 'factory
labourers enjoyed. He called the present interference a
blind and blundering benevolence. The Noble Lord the
Member for Dorset had only on Friday addressed him-
self to the commercial view of the subject, and what was
his argument ? He admitted there would be a fall in the
production and wages. But he said the loss in the
amount produced would be made up from the less
amount of coal, and oil, and tallow, which wotild be re-
quired. But, would not this affect the coal Airoducers
ofthe north ? Would it not affect the price of their
woollen manufacturers in the American market if, as
would be the case, less cotton would be used
in ten hours than in twelve ? It, would have an
effect oa the shopkeeper and ghipowopr, and on
every person employe(' in conveying the staple
articles of the country from one part of it. to another.
It was said that the workmen were willing to risk the
fall of wages. He believed that point had never' been
put fairly before them. The clergy had not put it be-
fore them. Dr. Hook represented, that the country
would be an Arcadia. The only person who put the
question before them in a proper light was the Rev. Mr,
4Atiy, reptop of Nue wlfoye e4epilio Ntto ths,)
ilulvept he would read; (The Hon, Gentlemen then read
the letter.) The general feeling of the working dove

was, that if they worked less they would get more, that
they had nothing to do but to make what was cheap
dear to secure better wages. They reversed the rule
upon which the country hal been acting for the last him-
tired years. He believed that they themselves would
be the first to suffer—first in their wage 3,
afterwards in the increased price of everything
which they had to purchase, and lastly through
the shock which would be given to forcing a trade. The
lion. Member fur Liskeard complimented the Noble
Lord on the caution displayed in his proposal. He said
that nothing could be easier than for them to retrace
their steps. Why, he believed there was hardly an in-
stance in the commercial history of this country in which
a lost trade. had . been recovered. He was much more
inclined to say, with the Hon. Member fur Pontefract, that
the Noble Lord and those who supported him, had lit a
candle in the country, and he was glad that that
House had the power to put an extinguisher upon it.
He could not agree with the Noble Lord the. Member for
Sunderland, that the Government had acted in a despo-
tic manner by refusing to take on themselves the respon-
sibility of a measure which they disapproved. He
thought they had acted in a most constitutional, upright,
and honourable manner; they had certainly greegly raised
themselves in his estimation by the cours., they had pur-
sued. There never was a question in which the feelings and
passions of the people were more deeply interested, or
more easily brought into energetic and .vehement
action. lie trusted the present discussion would lead to
the adoption of free-trade principles, for he felt con-
virwel, that when these principles were brought into
practical operation, when England would be the cheap-
est as well as the most productive country in the world
—when food was abundant, and at a moderate price—
no danger noel be apprehended from foreign competi-
tion; and the operative would care little whether it was
a Ten Hours' or a Twelve Hours' Bill that was passed
through that House.—(Cheers.) .
Mr. M'GEACIIY said he considered this a very
important question. He did not consider the arguments
of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for
the Home Department, however specious and plausible
they might have been, were based on just principles,
for the Right Hon. Baronet's argument, if good for any-
thing, showed.the propriety of non-interference with la-
bour, whereas the Right Hon. Baronet's policy had a di-
rectly contrary effect. He (Mr. M'G.) visited several of the
factory districts in company with Mr. Horner, and put
several questions to factory labourers; but the substance
of the questions was this : Which would you prefer, 12s.
a-week, and work twelve hours daily ; or have 10.4.
a-week, and work ten hours daily ? The general answer
was a preference for the dipaieished pay and the dimi-
nished hours of labour. A weaver, aged 32, when asked
the 'question, said he preferred the smaller wages and
the lighter work ; for, said he, what I earn by the extra
hours I pay in doctor's bills.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") Another operative, aged 24, a dresser, had six
children, three of whom could not work. lie said he had
talked over the matter with his wife, and they preferred
lower wages and less work. The lion s's'entleman quoted
the opinions of several operatives, all of which were in
favour of the short hours and the short wages. Amongst
others, that of a young woman, who was blind of an eye.,
and who supported an aged mother, and she preferred
shorter hours of labour, that she might have an
opportunity of going to church oftener. Really (said
the lion. Gentleman), a much higher tone of philosophy
prevails among the humble classes in the manufacturing
districts than is generally supposed. In short he came
back from the manufacturing districts with the most
favourable impression of the intelligence and right-
mindedness of the inhabitants. lie had been assured
that young men and women, even to the ages of twenty-
five and thirty, were constant attendants of Sunday-
schools, and they preferred being pupils to teachers that
they might have greater opportunities of improvement.
There certainly was great difference of opinion among
the master manufacturers regarding the propriety of
diminishing the hours of labour, but he must say, in
justice to this class, that there was a strong feel-
ing in favour of a diminution in the hours of toil
prevalent amongst them. This country had already
voted twenty millions for the emancipation
of the slaves, and the Government went so far on that
occasion as to regulate the hours of labour. Why, then,
hesitate so much about putting the same principle into
operation in the manufacturing districts, where it was
so imperatively required? He trusted, as he believed
that there was a, growing disposition in favour of the
poor," that the desire would increase, to carry out,
without reference to party feelings, measures of amelio-
ration for the moral, physical, and intellectual condition
of the people.
Mr. M. SUTTON said the lion. Member who had
just sat down had correctly. stated the answers of the
operatives ; but he had not stated that by far the greater
number of the operatives, seventy out of a hundred, in
fact, said they would not willingly bear a diminution in
their wage. He contended that the operatives them-
selves gave but a qualified and partial support to the
proposition of the Noble Lord. . Whey believed, also, that
prices would rise by the limitation of the hours of labour.
He, however, believed that this was a result which could
not take place. The impossibility of wages rising had been
already fully established ; the proposition was a diminu-
tion of the productive. power of the country, and to such
an extent, that the whole reduction of the exports it
would cause, would amount to-4,500,000/,, or nearly one
twelfth of the whole export trade of the country. Would
any one tell hiria, then, that this was but an alteration in
the details of the system? With respect to the opera-
' tives themselves, it would have a most detrimental effect
on them, as it would subtract from_their wages no less
than 857,140 L a year. The evil effect of this would not
stop with them, it would extend to the shopkeepers, and
the whole trade of the manufacturing districts. He was
at a loss to conceive how the misery and destitution of
the manufacturing classes could be alleged as a reason
for the diminution of-their wages. It should be remem-
bered that the distress of 1841 was not caused by over-
work, but by the want of work and reduced wages. A
proposition was once made in that House, by the lion.
Member for linaresborough, for granting a million of
money to the manufacturing labourers ; yet this was a
sum not much exceeding what it was now proposed to
take from them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. HAWES said, the arguments of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just spoken, had the common
vice of all the arguments on that side of the question.
The same arguments -would apply against all Legis-
lative interference whatever. The question he had to
ask himself was this—was the present a practicable
measure ?—what were the evils that must necessarily
flow from it ?—and were there any benefits to be de-
rived from it ? He did not look on it as a single,
isolated measure, but as one of many measures
which this House must be prepared to dis-
cuss and perhaps, ultimately to pass.—(Hear.)
He had no doubt they might with perfect security limit
the hours of labour if they had a free trade and a fair
field for their industry.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
look on this question as an isolated one. Perhaps it
could not be Justified in itself, but lie was sure that
1 other measures must flow from it which would render
the evils expected as the consequence of it, Vain and
nugatory. The object of political economy was to in-
crease the wealth of a nation; but legislation must take
the morals of a nation as its object. (The Hon. Gentle-
' man then quoted Mr. Mills to show that neither body nor
mind could be engaged in labour for too long a period
without affecting the morals or happiness of a
people.) He admitted difficulties surrounded the
subject on all sides. Great evils had been
predicted from the appointment of inspectors, and
it was said the manufacturers would give up their
establishments in consequence of the supervision to
which they were subjected, but none of those evils had
been verified. No person liked to be restricted.—(lronical
cheers.) Great stress had been laid on the reduction
of wages which would follow from this measure. He
admitted that such reduction would take place, but it
was in the power of the House to more than compensate
them for that loss, as he would prove. The Mayor
of Manchester had published a statement which showed
what pressed Most on the means of the working classes.
Those articles which took most of their wages from
them were bread and meat, butter, and potatoes.—(Hear.)
If the taxes on those articles were removed they
would save 22 per cent, of their earnings. He would
therefore make this measure a lever, by which to effect
much greater good, and he had no hesitation in so
making use of it. The mother of the family would be
able to devote more of her time to her domestic concerns;
and this, also, would be a saving to the working man.
A great deal had been said of the loss of the foreign
market. Why the same thing had been predicted before,
but their foreign trade had not suffered. On
the contrary, the foreign trade was never so ex-
tensive. There was no fear of their foreign trade
if they would only remove those restrictions which at
present confined and restricted it. There was no in-
stance in which restrictions from trade had been re-
moved that the trade of the country did not immediately
spring forward. Such had been the effect of the policy
Of Mr. Huskisson, and the same would prove true now.
He could give tke Right Hon. Gentleman data, which
he would do well if he followed. This was not a ques-
tion altogether of a Ten Hours' Bill, because the propo-
sition of the Noble Lord was equivalent to an Eleven
Hours' Bill; but he was not sorry that it was treated as
a Ten Hours' Bill. Looking to the measure, not
as an isolated one, as he before said, but
looking at it as one that must be followed by
other measures, believing that it would improve
the moral and intellectual condition of the work-
ing classes—that the trade and manufactures of the
country would not be placed in danger if the Govan"-
ment followed a sound. and wise course of legislation
With regard to corn and sugar—that it would tend to
lessen the hostility of the people to the social state (they
might recollect the strike which took place a short time
ago, and though the disturbances 14 been put down,
the discontent of the people still remained) ; looking to
all these things, he thought that an opportunity was now
afforded byavhich they might effect great social good,
and reconcile the affections of the working classes.
He was convinced in his own mind, that whatever evils
might be supposed likely to 'flow from this limitation of
the period of labour, it they would honestly and sin-
cerely set about the social improvement of the people,
those evils would be as nothing compared with the be.
nefits which would result from the change.
Lord POLLINGTON said, that on every occasion
hitherto he had given his support to proposals salilal, to
those of the Noble Lord ; but when IN found a Govern-
ment Which had never shown a disposition to force
their own lane
egaiust the opinions of the House, he
p
had been perplexed in the extreme, During the Easter
i,aose he had analysed the majority, and •be had found
that the Members of the great commercial towns and
cities of the empire, and the Members for Yorkshire,
had supported the Bill. . Medical men had informed
him that the period of ten hours was as
much as the sinews could safely sustain.—(Hear.)
It had been plainly intimated by the Right Ilaa. Ila;.
ronet (Sir J. Graham) tht if the Noblii torTs proper
mvl weve carr4,4, Al* eortilaws nAust be repealed. Then
he tlid say that if t,4 ccirn..l4w, did rest on so rotten a
foundation, he should be the first man-in the House to
yotc fur their repeat--(Cheers iliora the Opposition.)

Ire had never supported the corn-laws, either in or out of
the House, except as a necessary protection to native
agriculture ; and he could not forget that the first claim
upon their Fotection was from the weak end helpless.—
(Chears.) He could assure the Noble Lord, that how.
ever weak, he would find in hint a sincere advocate of
the measure which he had proposed.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that considering the im-
portance of the interest then at. stake he could not re-
concile it to his conscience not to say a few words by
way of restating the reasons which would influence his
vote. He had listened with great attention to the de-
bates on that subject, and with special attention to the
speech of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, believing that
if he failed to convince him that his views were right,
nothing' else could produce that result. But he con-
fessed that he was a good deal surprised at the ground
takeh by his Ron. Friend. What did his speech amount
to? lie said that this measure, taken singly, was
fraught with the most appalling
,danger ;. if. the
II 'use were not prepared to follow up this measure by
other great extensive changes, that this House must re-
sort to other measures to provide against a reduction of
wages. He would yield to no man in a • desire to
see the corn-laws of this country put upon, what
he conceived to be, a sounder footing than they
were at present, but he • shuddered at the prospect of
a people thrown out of employment, and of all
the , frightful results which so* great a change in the
manufacturing system of this country would produce.—
(Ikar, hear.) Even if remedial measures were adopted,
he doubted whether they were Justified in interfering
by legislative enactment with the labour market.—(Hear,
hear.) Hon. Gentlemen said it would. be all very well
to oppose the ten hours' clause if they
had never interfered with factory labour at
all, but having interfered in certain particulars,
the question was now only one of degree, and no evil
consequence would result from extending the principle
of interference. He believed that by their interference
up to that point, they had done more good than harm—
(Hear, hear)—but an interference so violent as that pro-
posed, had never yet been attempted; and he, for one,
would not take upon himself the responsibility of voting
for such an experiment.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed,
he was astonished to hear Honourable Gentleman talk
of this measure as an experiment, and argue that if the
experiment proved a failure, they might easily retrace
their steps. Did they really know what failure meant?
—(Bear, hear.) Failure meant the loss of trading ; and
foreign trade, once lost, was not easily recovered.—
(Hear, hear.) Failure meant the want of employment—
the demoralisation of the work-people. He entreated
the -House, then, not to legislate on this subject in the
spirit of experiment.—(Hear, hear.) It they were:sa-
tisfied that the change would be beneficial let them at
once-yield to the Noble Lord's proposal,- but if they had
any doubts on the subject, he entreated them to pause
before they enacted measures from which -he believed
there was no retreat.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been
said in the course of those debates as to the effect which
a Tea Hours' Bill would have Upon wages. He had, he
confessed, a great distrust of all nice calculations
on subjects of that kind ; yet- he, thought it was
not difficult to foresee how this measure would act. He
thought it had been demonstrated that the Noble Lord's
reduction must, if not at once, progressively and cer-
tainly reduce wages. They were told that this question
had been fairly put to the operatives, whether they
would accept it even with the prospect of reducing
wages. Now he did not believe that this ques-
tion had ever been .fairly stated to the opera-
tives.—(Hear, hear.) Mr.. Oastler, at a meeting
held in Blackburn, told them he did not think the
change would reducewages ; " but supposing it would,"
he asked, " were they, the men of Blackburn, willing to
support the Bill ?" The reply was, " Yes, we are."
Would any one say this was evidence as to what
the feelings of the operatives would be in
case a reduction took place ?—(Hear, hear.)
He was afraid that the tendency of wages in this country
was downwards. If they were dealing with a country
in which they were buoyant and increasing, the case
would, he admitted, be different. He believed that this
question, if carried, would -not be confined to the facto-
ries. Ten hours' labour meant ten hours' sale of coal,
ten hours' traffic upon the canals and railways ; and let
him tell the country gentlemen it also meant ten hours'
consumption of provisions and of flour. It. was said that
in this country -we had arrived at an artificial state of
society, which called for a new•course of legislation. He
was not disposed to agree with that assertion. Ile was
not disposed to displace from his library the works of
Adam Smith, and to substitute for them those of Mr.
Sadler and Mr. Oastler.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that
in an artificial state of society it would be more dangerous
to depart from sound principles than in the rudest state.
—(Hear, hear.) It might be supposed from the state-
ments of the supporters of this measure, that women
were never before subjected to toil, and that men were
never taxed in their labour beyond their strength. But
had they notread 'the beautiful lines of the Latin pet,
.
written IN° years ago ? •
Sopitos sunhat ignes,- •
Noctem adders open, eastum ut servare cubile
Conjugis, et possit parvos educere nate%
—(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that if they inter-
posed in the way proposed they would make matters
worse- than they were.—(Hear, hear.) He doubted that
the, measure was- so much desired among the working
elassei as Was' represented. Ile was convinced it was
not so much desired as was some }ears ago a measure
regulating a minimum of wages.—(Hear.) He thought
it should be the maxim of a wise legislator to act for the
many rather than with the many ; and he believed that
if this was carried the working classes themselves would
be the first_ to turn round and accuse the Legislature of
yielding to demands which were.founded in injustice and
would end in disappointment. •
Mr. STUART WORTLEY said that the delusion 'to
which his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the
Home Department had alluded, was occasioned in some
part by the Right Hon. Baronet himself, who stated on
his own authority, that the proposition of his Noble
Friend Lord Ashley would not • have the good conse-
quences expected from it. He (Mr. W.) was unwilling
to allow this debate to pass over without taking an op-
portunity of stating the reasons why he adhered to the
course which he had already taken, although he felt
pain in opposing .a Government in which in other matters
had the fullest confidence. But as he had arrived at a
full conviction of the necessity for such a measure as
was proposed by his Noble Friend, he must support him,
at whatever sacrifice of his personal feelings. It was now
forty-two years:since this subject was first brought under
the consideration of Parliament, by a man well-known to
the House and the country, the late Sir Robert Peel. At
that time children were employed only as piecers,
but since then they had been introduced to other and
more hiborious departments, and women had been
employed to such an extent, as to displace the
men from their proper place in society, and . to
lower their wages.' In other kinds of employment
such as carpenters, masons, &c.—the men were employed
only twelve hours a day, ineluding an hour and a htilf
or two hours for refreshment. Why, then, should Chil-
dren and women be required to work a greater number
of hours ?—(Hear, bear.) But in many cases where the
children worked twelve hours, they did not reach home
for two hours after their parents. But the fact was,
that in Leeds and other places, some of the millowners
had reduced the hours to eleven, and had found that by
doing so' they actually got more work done thin when
the time was twelve hours. He had himself presented
a petition signed by 300 masters, in which they stated
that twelve hours, with the deduction of two
hours for rest and refreshment, was as much
labour as children and women should be subjected to.
When they saw that so many millowners could reduce
their hours of labour from twelve to eleven, he thought
it showed that to establish that as a standard of labour
in mills would be attended with success. In Sheffield
there had been a shortening of the hours of labour for
the purpose of equalising the work, and no bad results
had ensued. He considered the Bill of the Noble Lord
would have a great effect on the morals of the people in
the manufacturing districts, and he would give it his
support. ,
Mr. BRIGHT then rose to address the House. Al-
though it might be inconvenient that so much time
should be taken up on this subject during the present
session,. yet he thought that the House would come to
the decision that no time had been wasted upon it as far
as it affected the' well-being of the country. The
House, he. WaS 'sure, wonld not make any lair
to interfere with labour in factories, unless it was
satisfied there was a necessity for it. hen the Noble
Lord first brought the subject forward, it was clear to
him the House could not legislate upon it, because he
had placed the matter on the humanity view of the ques-
tion,, throwing out of sight altogether the commercial
point of view of the question. He was sure it must be
clear to every person that it would be useless to legis-
late for humanity alone. In his (Mr. Bright's) opinion
the Noble Lord had made out no case for the inter-
ference of the House, because his statements had been
based upon documents with which he had been furnished
by. others, which contained most gross exagger:ir n
to
s
not borne out by facts. The Noble Lord had
the House a document . purporting to comane
.frormwahioh
e.
operative delegates in Lancashire,
asdirouedmenbty
wasand eihg;ninbcoottmo7.4
from eight of the principal mill owners in Lancashire.
The first document to which he bad adverted coin-
head also been named
ebdefori
menced with an attack upon Mr. Ashworth, of Bolton,
stating that he was the foremost of the class of Lancashire
mcondition of the working classes in that part of the
anufacturers who objected to the amelioration of the
country. The House knew the character of that gen-
tleman too well to require of him a refutation of those
statements, for that if it was necessary he might appeal
to the Rev. B. Noel, to many Members of that House,
and to the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire
himself. But there was' no necessity that he should do
as
wentsdue ffir
nt
ac
ei
tes
partuf onrd met
nowt ow
was
resideds
ow t h a
at a wt
completeiht e
wasM
oA so.o
soah oet rt
et was sufficient for hun to say that when Mr.
AshwOrth
pl
garden, with a great number of excellent cot-
tages. - -Now in the document that purported
to come from the operative delegates ofthere
iveLancashire,
was a diagram, for the purpose ofshowing the
the piece-makers had to walk, and that diagram can.
veyed a rooa erroneous notion of what the faets were.
If the Noble Lord had ever been in a mill, he must bo
convinced' of its untruth. It' stated that they had to
walk thirty-eight miles a day, which was impossible.
The Noble toed had been invited to accompany Mr.
Greg over his mill, but he diclined to do so unless in
company with the delegate% and this Mr. Greg declined
because these very persons had applied to lii> the most
opprobrious epithets most undeservedly. Na 'employment
was more advantageous to the workmen than those cOn-
nected with the power-loom in cotton factories in Lanca-
shire. lie bad no donlit the power-loom weavers had loss
tell thavt the hand-loom weavers, With respect to the mill-
Willers document, they had stated that which he (Mr.
Bright) knew to be true. Seven of the millowners stated
that the piece-maker walked _l6 miles. a . day, while
one stated it was 20 miles ;- but as to 38 miles, it was
impossible for any one to do so for days together. There
were many other parts of the diagram that were equally

1.~~~~,

and purposely-erroneous. There was onet hltdt-\v-ith
respect to the operatives, that he was gla; *Tee,
.anel
that was, that-Honourable Gentlemen win itehnow
what the opinions of the operatives were. e.o
they petitioned -the House by millions, and wetly-
no notice of ; but now they were all importarir-L.-(teitia -
hear.) The
,Noble Lord had not given a fair impres-
.sion to the House of the opinions of the operatives, nor
hail an Hon.. Member who had addressed the House
that night, who visited the factory districts, in com-
pany with Mr. Horner (Mr. M‘Geachiy). That Hon.
Hon. Member should have stated that in at least one of,
the mills he had visited, where there was a large num-•
ber of operatives employed, by far the greater number
of them repudiated the Ten Hours' Bill, if it would have
the effect of lowering their wages. A great 'deal had
been said about the opinions and feelings of the opera-
tives on this subject. •An extensive manufacturer, who'
employed nearly 1,000 hands, asked his men if they
were in favour Of the Ten Hours" Bill. One of them re-
plied he was. Then said the manufacturer to this man,
work for ten hours and I will not disturb you. The man,
replied that he did not like to work alone. Then said
the manufacturer, let all those in the same room work.
the same time with you, and yen may continue this for
twelve months, and I will not disturb you'; or, if all
the hands in the mill wish to try it they shall have my
concurrence. This propositition was made on the 27th
of the last month, but none of the operatives—not one in
tbe mill of this manufacturer—had yet tried the ten
hours' labour. Another manufacturer, at Bury, not only
gave his men leave to work only ten hours, but actually-
stopped his engines when ten hours were done. He con-
tinued to do this for three days, at the expiration of
which all his men told him they would turn out unless
they were allowed to work twelve hours as usual.--•
(Hen; hear.) Some Honourable Gentleman had
said' that no delusion had been practised on the
operatives, but he (Mr. Bright) had no hesitation
in saying that a gross and cruel delusion had been prar-
tised upon them, and by men who, though not exactly
employedby the Noble Lord, were yet connected with the
mo - ement against the manufacturers. A meeting was
held in Manchester, in Nov. 1833, and resolutions were
passed at that meeting, which he would read to the
House. But be must tell them who were the principal
persons who attended these meetings, which were, for the most
part; composed of operatives, who were the principal speakers,
and who were the members of the Committee. The
Honourable Member for Oldham was one. The- first
resolution regarded the formation of a society for assist-
ing the working classes in obtaining for eight hours'
work a 'full day's pay ; and another resolution Was,
calling upon the people to desist from petitioning Parliament
in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill, unless wages for twelve hours
would be given. The meeting was attended by Mr. Fielden,
as he had already stated, by Messrs. Doherty, and Mr. Higgin-
botham. More names were affixed to the paper he had read
to the House—James Turner, Philip Grant, and last, though
not least, Robert Owen, Esq.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
He did not quarrel with the Committee, or its resolutional
but what he objected to was, that these men should go about
the country representing to the working classes that, by legia-
Wive enactments, the perhid of their toil- could be abridged.
All that that House could do was, to seoure rights and pre-
vent wrongs. The fact was, the Noble Lord proposed fa
shorten the tether twelve yards to ten, and better their wadi-
Lion by narrowing their circumstances. The Monthly, Post
told the farmers that if they grew three-fourths of the gross,
they would get as much for it as for the whole crop ; and so it
was, doubtless, under the operation of the present eorn-
laws. Thus it was with the Hon. Member for Oldham, who
would only have ten pieces of cloth made instead of twelve, on
the principle that the increased price of cloth would make np
for the increased reduction. The Hon. Member did not con-
sider that increased price would be so disadvantageous to the
community.' He did not charge the Noble Lord with employ-
bag those disreputable persons whom he had mentioned, but
he feared the Noble" Lord had based many of his statements.
for which he had given no authority, on their evidence. Seve-
ral books, too, had been published, containing the grossest ca-
lumnies nponthe manufacturers • and these books, it was said,
had the sanction of the Noble ard. Why, some of those per-
sons had been actually employed to foment disturbances in the
manufacturing districts. They got up petitions, and meetings,
and cabals, among the workmen, and they raked up a variety
of things, perverted statements, and sent these forward to the
world as samples of the condition of the manufacturing dis-
tricts. Why this Doherty, to whom he had already alluded, had in
the first instance obtained employment in 'Manchester on a forged
certificate. Ho had been several times imprisoned—had been
cencerned in the violent riots in 1818—he had been imprisoned
for offences against the Excise laws—he had been before the
. Magistrate forgiving a false name, and for being drunk and
disorderly, and yet he would ask the Noble Lord whether this
man had not actually received money from a certain Society in
London, for the purpose of promoting the Ten Hours' Bill ?
Then there was Mark Crabtree, another of those who attended
the Manchester meeting, and who was an active promoter of
the views of the Noble Lord. This Mark Crabtree:lid been
brought before the Aylesbury Magistrate charged with stealing
silver spoons and a salt cellar, the property of a publican in
Aylesbury. This was on June the 26th, 1843; he described
himself as a dyer and scourer, residing at 16, King-street.
Long-acre, London. Ile admitted having taken the property,
but said he was intoxicated when he did so, and that when sober
be would have placed them again in the hands of the landlord.
But who was it he sent for to give him a character? Why,
Dr. Sleigh, and this gentleman stated that he had been intro-
duced to the prisoner by 'the Duke of Buckingham, and that
the greatest confidence had been placed in him by the highest
personages in the realm. The jury returned a verdict of guilty,
but added " not with a felonious intent,"—( Great laughter. )
:They were sent to reconsider their verdict, and returned one of
" acquittal." This man Crabtree, and a person named
'Turner, who stated that they were operatives, but were no
operatives at all, met him (Mr. Bright) in the lobby of the
House of Commons a few nights ago, told him they were
delegates from the operatives of Lancashire, and requested him
to support the Bill of the Noble Lord ; at the same asking
him " What will the Northern Star say if you refuse?" He
(Mr. Bright) did refuse, and, accordingly, a column of the
filthiest abuse had been heaped upon him by that most infamous
of monopolist papers the Northern Star. He had no hesitation
in saying that for ten who were in favour of a Ten flours' Bill in
the manufacturing districts there were 10,000 in favour of
free tradeprinciples. After some farther observations the Hon.
Member concluded by saying that the manufacturers of Lanca-
shire sought no favour from the Legislature—they would
scorn to ask for any special reservation or exclusive regard to
their interests; all they asked, then, was to take off those
burdens which pressed so severely upon them—to at least
equalise the burdens upon every class of the community, and
not to make the poorest suffer to benefit the rich.—( Cheers. )
Lord ASHLEY explained. He had not said that in the
weaving department the labour had been doubled by the im-
provements in machinery, but what he had said was, that
within the last few years it had increased ten per cent. The
House would decide whether himself or the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down was the gross exaggerator.
Mr. SHAW said he had no claim whatever to the attention
of the House on this subject, and he would therefore not
attempt to follow the Hon. Member for Durham ; but as he
was about to give a vote against the Government upon this
question, he would delay the House for a few moments while
he explained his reasons for doing so. Upon the several divi-
sions which had taken place upon this subject, he had uni-
formly voted in favour of the ten hours' clause. - The question,
as had before been stated, was one of degree, and not
one of principle. The principle of interference had
been acknowledged by the Government, and as She
uwnasde the
rtehzetsee extent of
question of the necessity of limitation had been conceded,
thetli e
taqtuwenstiwohniufh they
for that
should HouseHouse considertuogreutu.
cir-
cumstances, he felt constrained to persevere in the course
which he had already taken. He did this reluctantly ; but be
would remind the House of one sentence which had fallen from
the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury on a
former occasion, which was, that he regretted the necessity of
differing from some of his mast esteemed friends ; yet he was
persuaded that they would appreciate his motives, and believe
that he was acting from his conscientious convictions. He
trusted, therefore, that the Right Hon. Baronet would extend
the same feeling of indulgence to those who, on the present
occasion, felt constrained to differ from him on this question.
Mr. CHARLES WOOD did not believe that the proposi-
tion of the Noble Lord, if carried out, would have the effect
anticipated by the Hon. Member for Knareaborough. On the
contrary, he believed that the effect would be just the reverse,
and that an ultimate and permanent reduction of wages would be
the result. He would ask, what would be the effect of this mea-
-1 sure upon the poorer classes, if the prices of manufactures should
rise? What had been the state of the manufacturing districts
during the last two years ?—(llear, hear.) The distress in
these districts had never been equalled in this country. The
labourers then worked less than ten hours a day from a sheer
want of work ; and yet, after such dreadful experience, would
they attempt by legislation to bring about &return of such a state
of things? He granted, for the sake of argument, that for
short time the same amount of wages would be paid, but that
amount would be divided amongst agreater number of labourers.
That he contended was in point of fact a reduction of wages.
There would also be a loss on capital ; a considerable lossut on
the fixed capital of all existing interests, and thatu
by a re-
ductionmade up somehow or other. If it was not made
em-
ployments, or be sent abroad;
and if
most regret the mea-
sure itu—hthe
puarwteisanr
to
solemnly believed that those who would of wages, capital would be.
ftrwaangs
efesrwreedretroepdouthceerd,hes
ur e w
themselves.oul db e thosee
wwas perfectly
were
improve the condition of the working classes, but it was for
measure to show that it would improve
reducing a
their condition. Ile a. not
believe that the
those who supported th'sl. threeanclyastomdgo
• tory reports
- people to poverty would do anything towards improving their
state, either moral, social, or religious. The sanatory
of the large towns showed that they were in a bad state ;
bat the reducing the labourers to the verge of starvation would
only tend to make them worse. He had no indisposition to
promote every one of the ends the Hon. Gentleman who sup-
ported this measure imposed ; there wore other measures for
improving the health of the people, and bettering their
dwellings ; and in these things the Legislature might properly
interfere, if it was proved that they could not be effected by
individual exertions. He was sorry that a difference of
opinion had arises, but having the choice he must do what
he thought would be the least evil of the two to the class he
was the most anxious to serve, and he should basely betray
his duty to them, if at any request he did that, which in his
conscience he believed would be most prejudicial to them, and
which would be destructive to the trade, the commerce, and
the general commercial prosperity of the country.
Mr. B. COCHRANE said that during the discussion of
this subject—since it had been brought before the House—the
Government had used every effort to insure a majority in fa-
vour of their proposition, and in furtherance of that bad got up
a strong agitation in the country. He thought that agitation
was but a poor means by which men were enabled to come to
right conclusions. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Deputment had admitted the principle
of interference with labour, when he proposed his twelve
hours' restriction of labour. What had been the conduct
t
by any means a party question when it was first hi
of her Majesty's Government in this case?
their consideration ; but the Right Hon. Baronet ad subs*.
Ltulgwhtu under
n
quently made it one. He believed that her Majesty's . Govern-
ment would tea the necessity of not sacrificing principle upon
such a question as the present.
question; but, considering
again to address the House on this
fell that he would not be due &rota
Sir R. PEEL was sorry that a sense of duty compelled hint
its great importance, he
state opinions. •
whether they should, by legislative enactment,
question was
employed in factor?, labour to suspend
compel all the machinery emp
his duty conscientiously if he did not
of violating principle which had been made against her Majose
its operations for two hours every day. at was the charge
ty's Government? If such a violation occurred, let them be
.
at once frustrated in the present measure, but until that proof
was distinctly established, he certainly could not appreciate the
arguments of some Hon. Members. He had come to the via-
tica of degree, n so far As the interference with labour went.
They might have been' *Wrung ;in introducing any enactment
which would have the effect of restraining or governing adult
labour, but still that error was no justification of others. He
would ask seriously, was it politic to limit labour to twelve
hours ? Some Hoe. Gentlemen opposite had referred to the
corn-laws, But what advantage was that in the present discus-
sion? They said that the corn-laws in England gave to foreign
countries a vast advantage in the race of competition. Now.
if a discussion were to arise on the question of the core-lawn, be

MME