The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

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11,

11„4•Vemi„ respect the Clifilen unions. The
,
• teet "an states: that lane lorde were in art eers,
ill)pfeti they bee refissesi a fair rate. He was not
to
eive the natiee of his correspondent, but he
;1," I,e sees .e,, teeo, ef his etetemente
lletnear;l4l"ret le Sr r, t 'ei s r. trein
tits e t I ee•••es in ttei
• :L.' 11,1' ttie Veer t 1,( ree. t°
:„s:eies wns great prosperity
itilePecesressive it:in:oven:ref, I.IL iha•. ever since that
ii3P4li 4;lisrn,
„nd c,„iereoeel had revaged it.
propricter heel oirtr'.'l Mr. Twistletor, the
41" i et'attniesiovier 1 WV of eruwing sires:, for the
Ihty:4ch were due u?)e.: it -^im'iunti we to 400 t, but
itett-ie7e refused, 7 s gnere7) was that the
Id
eZt. since been 1, ant; The wot I( h ease
ligt)4•11. "In e 0F the he;t, trt-aesione 1)f the proprietors
tert:,;,,rillteperl urpive,r,ted into, auxid-:ry worldruees, and others
_ (4-ion4b, ta,?y imlon.4ed to Lizoili-s, who hi:, id
t
'See sestit every shillirps in Ireland.) he Cod .
14 ee district lii-rnself Jut gave tee statement es it
teii, ell forwarded to him 1V hat he o'oj,.cted to tor-
lee
„was the re
--ottouetile. Atemees's inaleing charges
IStenten'imoUS infe;;.natlon.- which were, in his
letail;„''"gteerated in themselves, and unwarranted
oe a body of men, some of whom had, at all
Ali,• 114 th eir cl• 1--,ao d
S er very difficult, circumstances.
ilktti the staterm;
sear) hp could not have the least oheec-
n't Which had been read by the lion.
°4'et,l:l because it did not ear in fin slightest de-
ekti n,nealidate airs- of '.he astpeptements lie had formerly
IN, ill' reference to the unions in the west of Ire-
4111htts ‘‘, e could only say that every one of these state-
0b tl", Hoe on_ as good an authority as that on
htd"4". Alomber hal made a counter-state-
that teee. .
tetreet wAll the exception of one, and that he
r the ee as awl a• it was sho Nll to he erroneous.
'4l43t"tnent were not the question la fire the
lt,rs'-al'-:e4r)—th city h hal a ;treat many sensible
emttll,44l tend sone,; not very 6 sensible ones, referring to
dese that House, but be had never heard one
t e`evillZ 'the support of the llouse, or, less
eticlit'fLirit It' the opposition of her Majesty's
/fan that of his Hon. Friend the Memberi fur
k 4 Go-
t,il6llth faeetisittPpet ted that motion, because be believed
114,-4 d as those alleged demanded instant ve.ri
V, 441 rt4ress. The Government instituted 'n-
th-1,44 see-1111,41Y things less woithy of notice. If there
ebl'hitrer,,'4l4,Lane or a boiler burst in a steam-boat on
9(3 laight Hon. Baronet would institute a
Vet' lathe order that he might know the
.cause
oceeirtidale loss of life which these aceidhenite
h4eiletion-can* Why should the effects of the w o
• ft: not also be inquired into and the causesd
bail ti' j°l4l operating? Oae proprietor alone had
.(413 than 1,025 persons, or equal to 200
k. one 'd it had been calculated at a low rate thatd atd
thellWeiell-1, on in every family thus turned outte .
Ile', tot tegiq e 200 deaths from that one estate. Were
Sep the ;,,:asiuire into such a state of things as that?
llti.4ldlist"4ll ',lnce or selfishness of the landlords, the
teelltliefe'le,n let and cultivated in such a manner that
adis of a single crap they could not sustain
C'4,;!leel tel►e-1 no asserted 'that neither the principles of
‘lttlittiseietee°4l° asY nor the principles of our common
let as : Per mitted the owners of the soil to commence
hhidlle,Ztereoinating system.—(Hear. hear.) The
5; it, bud talked of proprietors who spent every
"te reeland. He believed that. 'They not only
'Chfite' sail f their own, but every shilling be-
ekes the - ° Jay hold of, instead
el ,ople that they con id
Itts'lttap .•" PrUd.nce moderation, uud forethought in
fh'lne'at of the 'revenues derived from their es-
,e 1--ouse, he thought, actesi with too much
tetttel hp is to person"; thus situated. 116 was not to be
Si:est; term confiscation. Ifahe millowners of
Itersee; ''`ere to act iu a similar' way, and leave the
le'etilpr.'4Yd'fincl dependent upele them to starve
el- 4st: ',lit!' House would no doubt speedily interfere.
Vkii;,'tertiber fur Limerick said, that the landlords
ae,)-444 naioa'had lei,'" a rate of :3s. in the pound.
bibt>Gkiin,th4t as. in the pound was not enough, when
Sei't tire,,,-"noonsideration the fact that rents. were. paid
Iti,„44'set"4,,,e'eld that grants had been given to it from
-meh kt(s s • 1 that when the landlords came un-
,kpt, elre
;ell'ive, Inas tances to that House for assistance,
th ey received was in feat a bonus upon
tyt~~en sett ';he extermination of the feople. If the
sad were to agree to the motion, and send a
relleekr,,44, loan to take the administration of the
aler,"lol'ds would soon sea that they could no.
elh's burdens from their own shoulders in
te;eld. ile's give that employment which they now
ektbleoe the Government took that resolute. and
'l,;`ter37ltree, they would soon see an alteration for
'!qeespe4eSn the general employment of the people.
1.41414 i,4on of his Hon. Friend was so simple that
atd 07.01.11 d be agreed to. They would have the
titoliteis:lOre the House, and the real cause of Ire-
teat,k'ltt-,tY would reach the light. There was no-
l:elee:nese of rates, and if this state of things was
Ifitve-,' nothing remained for Ireland but misery
hear, hear.)
(12tilree`1411ERTY•said that, while he admitted the
4'47401 of the honourable Gentleman whose
t 4 the. House, he did not think there was
4 tt.
to
4-e uity for the inquiry, or that it would. lead
411 .11 of the union of Clifton,
It, e was chairman
`it,llete r ° state that the English proprietors did not
itl l'tttes4.les• Surely these proprietors ought t ) payH
I °Z
holy could the people be supported ?
41411,11e11,e-c,"41,. the House that the poor-law was now
)I'4'4 sSet'l in Ireland. This lent and the Encumbered
l?l'eata-l' were well calculated to produce great im-
Iv, 46'4 Ireland.
°tit supported the motion, end said
the
k't4 ii. 6148 due to the people of Ireland' to make t
Vi ki,„;lluiry.
led‘.lth°l ARUNDEL and SURREY said it was
1h
-that ieat there was an excess of misery in Kil-
,"S se,- a':111Y ever before existed in a civilized or
o,,i_the-7 to of society. It was also admitted
e,ndlo.rds had .acted unfairly towards the
ail s e 5,,," still they did not know the cause
lt,d'he -"tilt orrery in Ireland. Ile acceded to (lie
Captain Kennedy, and while he ad-
ploa4l,-tue landlords in Kilrush were deserving of
siwei thrown upon them, he must exempt from
1,11:1,e'-etat his neighbour, Colonel IVyndham. The
sth`l'eup-, (Lord Russell) said they had
.informa-.
44 sett" reepeet to the subject under discussion,
kl,-,.,t1,111;:11ded that more information was necessary,
kt -a2 so they ought to have it. The Right
0, eage,e
ell'4tbeses Ita (Sir W. Somerville) said.... that frauds
:ell'llsee'l by the guardians in the leelrush union.
it 'tee ;"entd like to have all these frauds laic" before
Qton He should like to know how the estates in
4 41taiiert anti had been managed for years past.
pV„4lletisi' events he would say, that it was their. duty to
'ettl'eepi 41R to RUC the lives of the people in Ireland.
ttiatle te,„e„were so degraded by the present state_ of
eethe; hue was not surprised at anything they did, nor
tpo "e blamed far their actions. In supporting the
I,tl coramiss' ion it would be shown to the
',and th t h were persons in that House
a. t ere .
c4l'''t4P4thised with them in their -difficulties.
elltSs'lltt in that
„
t fi, •,,at tiouse must be thankful to the. Hon.
etisie"? the zeal and determination which he
-".k"stV'Yed in bringing the subject forward,
n, the discouragement shown to his doing
AN 44 v
6,1 ), SOMERVILLE said he did not
'e"Sie(l been committed in the union of leelrush.
I,etei ,1,3v4a, that such a statement had been made
fitll et) l-,,,exeitirseds
!i01111e1;-`'ll'01.1E1. Id net detain the House by a
led ply• All admitted if the facts which
(t `'he true, the necessity for an inquiry
.ex-
slic4ttoe.:,"le Lord objected that they had sufficient
S,4ltt 4ee utfnte them. on the subject; but if they had
0,411,5t:144, information required on the question,
Otlt4t tv.', he ashes", had born brought in to re-
hheel do ,1"s of which he comp:lined? If nothing
elk ief e for the people, of what use,he asked,
stfte `lrlnation which it was said they had?
‘ll4 840
1,, 4, itdo-ar they were going on in the same
Ote4'3°lti of gnot seem as if they were to have aney.
4%; t 4 tr•e system. The Hon. Gentleman, r
41a,'elt-„! Plan suggested by the Hon. Member for
shed,
ee'4l be had no doubt but if the resources of
de tie ''re developed, the evils of which she had to
be -rel,-eved —(Hear.)
said the Hon. Member for Man-
esel;,e• niSfolne rents in Ireland had been well` paid.
HT—No, I did not.
-'Nel--I—The Hon. Member said that the
we,141114 1411 Faid in Kilrush and other places he
Itlelthe4tl4ll,l he (Mr. F. French) was justified ineanst;
titid the Hon. Member meant to state that rwest,
tsY Were well paid. He could speak for the
e„Peat,!seellellt of which the rents had not been paid for
0411° the' and in other parts for two years. With re-
Ot`!e i.ProPosed inquiry, he saw no advantage that
hnis-Inte7ned by it; te contrary, he thought it
With the efforts now making by the Go -
II 44'1-'4 others, to improve the condition of the
slic,‘" Union in question.
For to then divided, when there appeared—
th
AN,-e Motion 63
•••
it ••• ..•
76
•.„ ••• • • • • •
kot• 4tajoritv —l3
104 ••• ••• •••
was as consequently lost.
"l' ' VOTE BY BALLOT.
i tt
„tat, t13,,,--tKELEY then rose to move for leave to
11e,.; to protect the Parliamentary electors of
400 4,1414 and Irelandundue influence by the
e) ,from
441 y 4Poleall°t• Ile said that if he were in need of
best,h'4 for bringing forward this motion, it was
i
iithkettee;h4 t'le hour at which he brought it forward
resee-r4t °±' the latest. (It was then nine o'clock.)
k 1 —et to the • he considered it of
„et, tea motion itse ,
eeoten INeortance, that until some Hon. Member,
11%11arettlit for the task than himself, undertook it,
111sst4ek-e(eri._4lintie to press it upon the attention of the
1/441‘el tit -74 r. bear.) He found in her Majesty's
esthekeltiese—e opening of this session of Parliament a
Ott ue "lestitational maxim. It was to the effect
, „ la \.°n,tubining liberty with order, by preserving
Itllale4ll4:Nall'tlie4ble and amending.- what is defective, you
k, me. 16)j. f," fabric of our institutions as the abode
tc)
°-
free andhappy People." Nothing could
11114'k '4'l)alitt
putt ltkq ttional, no sentunent more de-
Plegnee the but he submitie I to the Government
lib e
tlieWteill
..linieterial tree bore such blossoeaseatr _
tee .lki ha 4,:',.Poet to gather some fruit.—(Hear, h .)
he„4lteec‘nts. se:a4l°n of liberal principles unattended by
tierce Much about the same as.a.stric.t oh:
ekeasl,ll tecr''CIOLLS ceremonies without Christian (leen .
t)tn, ti, to ask house mai the Government
t.ts Axial he, had just quilted, to amend
k1te4441 th„ 1" be' interposing a shield between the
e.l4lte hits.s° who for their own purposes attempted
Ocsgis . knew it was almost hopeless to
oath Q 4 se I.,•sttoa palatable to the llouse, but he hoped
44 1' elaira to their indulgence by avoidingi as
1411 41enel)."sible the
404' et Re consider aruments he had used on previous
d the ballot to be the most pie-
-Ilite beennse measures of Parliamentary reform
submitted to the House by his Hon.

Friends on various occesions. He considered it to be
the primary .!ten to those other measures of :eform, be-
cause it was a stepping-stone to them. He thought it
less objectionable to the generality of Members, because
in seel,ing: it the*: sont:ht :o alter Y.O f!:-:ISti!Ig.
net eiy to pr,,sset the eltaeor itt 'he
iih ire tai a dory which they had err tail*.d upon him, and
lea-iese pris••nt he 11'1.-, to disel.arge that, fluty,
irons the 't
L 1,113 tilt, r: 1110'> hilth teo cr,:l.t into
our electoral system, and which were as noteriotri as the
lotigitude and latitude in navigation. This simple pro-
position, simple as it seemed to him, had always hitherto
been met with lively indignation. Minister aft,r Minister
came down to that House driven to his wits' end to
prove that sonic vital objection eaisted to a man dis•
charging his duty sub sitentio, even when it was con-
fessed that he was unable to discharge it vied voc,e.
This wes, in his opinion, a very difficult question to
argue against, whilst the arguments in favour of it
were, he thought, irresistible. The arguments against it
had been gradually dwindling away—they had become
salad by degrees, and beau:if.lily less," until, at length,
they had ended in silence and hard voting.—(Hear,
hear, and laughter.) When other question; of rerlia-
mentary reform were brought helm° the House, there
was no want of eloquence againa them on the part of
their opponent a but the moment the ballot was men-
tioned Hon. Members became perfectly mute. They
shied and dodged the question by every means in
their power. When Mr. Ward brought forward his
motion on the subject, in 1842, the same comp'aatt was
made, and the great diffisulty then, as now, was to get
toe Government on their legs.—(llear, hear.) Tne con-
sequence was that people believed that they opposed the
me inure for other reasons than those which they as-
signed, and the people were ready enough to assign
reasons for them. The people believed that they op-
posed the measure solely because they could not endure
to see the uppsr classes and the ari,tocracy shorn of
their undue and unconstitutional influence.—(Hear,
hear.) The course he intended to pursue on the pre-
sent occasion was to meet some of the objections which
had been most lately put on record as arguments against
the measure. He found that they had a fresh opponent
in the field. He found that they had to contend with
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Sir G. Grey). That Eight llon.
Gentleman was formerly a supporter of this measure.
The brilliant eloquence, the acute logical powers of that
Rght Hon. Baronet made him an undesirable opponent,
while his high character, and the important position he
held in her Majesty's Councils, made his example most
dangerous.—(Hear, hear.) It was for this latter reason
that, feeling as he did his utter incompetence to cope
with such an adversary, with some hesitation he had re-
solved to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain some
parts of his conduct on this cinestion. He begged to
say that he did nut assume for a moment that any gen-
tleaela was compelled always to remain of the same
opinion. Grave statesmen and Right Hon. Gentlemen
on both sides of the House had changed their opinions

frequently, and with their opinions hal changed their
votes; end he must say, as an humble individual, that
he hat thought them perfectly right. There was the
question of the corn-laws, for instance, upon which the
Noble Lord the Member for London, the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member fir Tam worth, the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Ripon, and other great
statesmen, had changed their opinions and votes; but,
bs fore they did so, they gave that House, the country,
and their constituents the most complete, elaborate,
and anxious explanations ; and he submitted,
that it' they had not adopted that course
they would have appeared, in the fece of the
country, as so many unequivocal and naked rats.
Ile (Mr. Berkeley) therefore, maintained that Hon.
Members who changed their opinions on so important a
question as the ballot ought to follow a similar course,
and give to the House and the country a most complete
and ample explanation. Now, how stood the facts of the
case? In 1848, when he (Mr. Berkeley) had the honour
to propose and the good luck to carry a resolution—
(Laughter)—in favour of the ballot, the Right Hon.
Gentleinau (Sir G. Grey) did not vote. The friends of
the motion first became aware of the loss they had sus-
tained by that inelaecholy obituary of departed Re-
formers—the division-list of the House. The Right
lion. Gentleman appeared in the House on that occa-
sion; but like the phantoms in Macbeth, he came like a
shadow and so departed—he pointed to his vote and
glided noiselessly out of the lobby.--(Hear, hear,
and laughter.) ' When the Honourable Member for
Montrose brought forward the general question of re-
form, he (Mr. Berkeley) ventured to arraign the silent
system, and then they had the Right Hon. Gentleman's
explanation. And what did it amount to ? It seemed
that in 1838 the Right Hou. Gentleman voted with the
Government for the ballot, and when Mr. Ward
brought forward the question in 1842 he voted with him
also. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that his
reason for so voting was, that he then represented a
constituency (Devonport) where undue influences
prevailed, and that therefore he had been induced
to give his relectant support to the ballet. In 1847,
however, the Rigbt Hon. Gentleman became Member fsr
Northumberland, and as that was a pure constituency—
as he was then breathing wholesome air—and as he had
at length escaped from the foul atmosphere of Devon-
port, he thought it right to turn round and vote against
the ballot; the reason he assigned being, that public opi-
nion had of late acted so powerfully upon the upper
classes that they had become politically virtuous.—
(Laughter.) Surely never before had such a reason
been given by any stateenan for a vote.—(Hear, hear.)
It had seen laid down by Burke, that when a Member
entered the House of Commons be entered it as Member
for England, and that he should not attempt to legislate
fur the county, city, or borough which returned him,
but for the community at large. He (Mr. Berkeley)
left the House to say whether, upon this principle, the
Right Hon. Gentleman's reason for his vote on the sub-
ject of the ballot would hold water. He begged to
call the attention of the Government to another ex-
traordinary circumstance connected:with the House of
Grey. In 1837 Lord Howick. then Member for
Sunderland, now Lord Grey, voted aginst the ballot,
the reason he assigned for doing so being the
same as that now assigned by his Right Honourable
Relative, viz., the increased political virtue of the
upper classes. In 1841, however, the Noble Lord, having
been defected in au election contest for Northumberland,
turnsd short round upon his former opinions about the
increasing purity of the upper classes, and showed that
he had been talking nonsense on the subject, fur at the
declaration of the poll at Alnwick the Noble Lord made
a most sweeping and unmeasured attack upon the Duke
of Northumberland, Lord Tankervillo, and his oppo-
nent Lord Ossulston, for unworthy trickery, for un-
scrupulously violating., their promises, and fur unduly
influencing the electors. [ the ,lion. Member read ex-
tracts from the Noble Lord's speech at Alnwick, as
quoted by Mr. Ward in his speech on the ballot in 1842.]
Mr. Ward on that occasion claimed the Noble Lord as a
proselyte, and challenged him to support him with his
vote. The Noble Lord, however, contented himsef with
walking out of the House without votMg at al!. It ap-
peared, therefore, that the test of purity of peliticai opinion
in the mind of the family of Grey was a Northumberland
election. If a Grey was rejected, straightway the commu-
nity was plunged into the depths of vice; if a Grey
was successful, the electors were immediately lull of
virtue.—(Laughter.) But now, as to the fact of the
increased political purity said to be found among toe
upper classes. There was a Committee which inquired
into this subject in 1836. That Committee had evidence
laid before it from all parts of England and Ireland—
evidence which it was impossible for any one who had
not actually read it to .conceive. In 1848 he bad quoted
in extenso from that er:dener, and proved that a general
state of demoralization characterised all elections at
which anything of party spirit prevailed, and succeeded
in establishing cases not to be upset—and he defied the
Right Hon. Gentleman to upset them—ot the grossest
intimidation, corruption, and malversation, in every pos-
sible way, of the franchise. As an appendix to the re-
port of that Committee, he might point to the evidence
before almost every one of the Election Committees from
that time to this—(Hear)—evideoce proving that the
same demoralization, the same intimidation, the same
corruption prevailed after 1836 as before 1836.—(Hear.)
He would ask which was to be believed in preference,
the bare bald assertions of Hon. individual Members, be
their position what it might, or the evidence on oath
taken before so many Committees, backed by the distinct
statements of facts adeMeed by other Members of the
House whenever the subject had been discussed ?-
-(Hear, hear.) There was the distinct evidence of the
Hon. Member for Birmingham in 1848 and 1849, who
stated, of his own knowledge, that no election for the
great city he represents ,d ever took place without at least
1,000 of the electors being prevented from voting by in-
timidation.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member did not
mention the many hundred other electors who on all
those occasions did v ete upon intimidation and against
their consciences.—( tlear, hear.) The Honourable
Member who second ad his motion in 1849—the Mem-
ber for Macclesfield— -showed, from his own experience,
the state of intimidation into which the metropolis
was plunged at ever y election ; and he had himself
given on the same o ccasion examples of the intimida-
tion practised at particular elections. He required the
Right Hon. Gentleman to show to the House what in-
crease in political virl.ue had taken place in the upper
classes in 1848, 1849, .and 1850, that should supersede
the goodness and expediency of the ballot, which he
himself admitted, in 18.38 and 1842.—(Hear, hear.) He
presumed that the Rig ht Hon. Gentleman would have
the tact to avoid, on tho present occasion, the obsolete
claptrap that formerly s erved a turn—about the unman-
liness and the un-Engli.ihness, and so forth, of the ballot
—the twaddle about its being cowardly to give a vote
and conceal its object.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman must see t hat he might as well suggest it as
cowardice for a man t o use his watch and then conceal
it, since the political intimidator and bully had no more
right to your vote limn the pickpocket to your watch.
Nor, he conceived, would the Right Hon. Gentleman
venture to suggest thest the English people were less fitted
now than in 1842 for the ballot, after the proofs which
the Government had received of the sound sense, intel-
ligence, good feeling, and loyalty of that people, in times
of great excitement abroad and sedition, nay, of rebellion
at home.—(Hear.) Perhaps, indeed, the Right Hon.
Gentleman might contemplate the proposition that the
people were less anxiout . about the matter now, because
they did not so anxiously agitate the question. Let the
Right Hon. Gentleman beware of such an argument as
that, lest he confirmed what was said against his Go
verument—that it refused to reason what it yielded to
agitation—(Hear, bear)---lest we justified the character
of the Whigs given by Lord Anglesey, that they were
tide-waiting legislators,, who flowed in on the tide of re-
fore], who steered witbi its slack water, and floated buck
with its ebb.—(hear, hear.) To the individual Mem-
bers who might be disposed to stay also at what they
thought slack water, he would give the earnest advice to
reflect maturely on the position of things in this year,
1850. The threat of gentlemen on the Opposition
benches to appeal to the country must be ringing in their
ears—(Hear, hear)—and, ringing there, it could not
but bring to their minds the last appeal of the same sort
which led to the general election under the contending

b inners of free trade and protection in 1841, and to the
insults of that centest. If the appeal then was en ap-
peasl to dernoreinatiee, what woeld an appeal now be?—
Wear.) It would he an ap; eel in which wealth and
ewer, puttinta on the eseN te ifs !et reerel,
weeld overt the fee-lee over tlO couetias,
t! MI chartered riah's more lv :1,1,1
in aly tleau (ee- bafora ---(hear. het.) ,ott!(1 he en
ap,al eaieeselt el:seat, eel aepeal
wealth to crush poverty, an appeal to the House of Lords
ta, elect the House of COMMOr,:f.—(Flcar, base.) He
would say one word as to the vain eVereipts of recent
legislation to deal with the least of the evils of the pre-
sent electoral systerr—the evil of overt bribery. They
had made laws stringent enough against overt bribery,
but they had entirely omitted the prevention of secret
bribery, and of that intimidation by exclusive dealing,
which contained within itself the very essence of bribery.
—(lcer, hear.) They had, in short, strained at the
gnat and swallowed the camel. Exclusive dealing
was
the right arm of intimidation—the essence of bribery in
its very worst form In the ease of simple bribery you
gave a man a reward for selling his conscience; you,
uerh9ps, saved him and his family from ruin, from
starvation, and the actual positive good ac-
cruing, though no excuse, might. be taken as
avi extenuation. But in exclusive dealing you
punished, you perhaps ruined a man and his
family, because he fellowed his conscience, and there
could be no doubt which was the worst offence. Again,
they had passed a measure by which it wa, impossible
for a man to stand against treachery and rascality; he
referred to their law of agency, under which agency was
definable to be a man's walking arra-in-arm with a can-
didate, or being seen in his committee-room, or placard-
ing'one:ef hisbide or wearing his colours, and so °lobe
further feat of any such person afterwards giving a
sovereign to an elector being deemed sufficient to eject
the candidate if elected, from his seat.—([fear.) lie
had on this point consulted many of the most eminent
election agents, and they were unanimously of the opi-
nion that under this law, after a general election, there
would be more seats unjustly declared void on petition
than had ever been declared void before, justly or un-
justly, from the utter vagueness and unlit:nimble extent
of the definition, and the wide field given to simulation
of agency.—(hear.) He had urged this question on the
House in the honest conviction that it was a measure due
to the people of England, to the constituencies who
elected that House, as a measure called for by justice
and by humanity; and he now committed his short
sketch to them, prepared to receive counter-conviction
from any man who could furnish him with it.—(Cheeas.)
Lord DUDLEY STUART seconded the motion. His
Hon. Friend had endeared himself to the people by his
able, unyielding, and in one case, successful advocacy of
this most important principle.—(Hear, hear.) He was
convinced that there was no question on which the
country felt a deeper interest; no object to the attain-
ment of which they were more thoroughly entitled. It
was demanded alike by all who possessed, and by all
who sought the franchise, as the only means of giving
them the secure exercise of that franchise. Without the
ballot the elector could never substantially enjoy the
te which the constitution gave him. The ballot was
alike his due, whether he claimed the franchise as a
trust, as a right, or as a privilege. In relation to its
character as a trust, it was objected that those who so
exercised, being responsible for its exercise to the non-
electors, could not consistently conceal its application;
but this argument, at all events, could not be justly held
by those who resisted an extension
,of the franchise on
the ground that the people were net yet fitted for it;
since, if they were not fit to vote, they- were equally
unfit to control a voto.—(Hear, hear.) If any persons
doubted the extent to which undue influence prevailed,
he would ask them to look at the different constituencies
and see whether there were any in which un-
merous elector: did not abstain from voting through'
fear of incurring the displeasure of influential indivi-
duals, or from the hope and expectation of some reward.
Now, the ballot, Would, on the one hand, prevent inti-
midatiou, while on the other hand it would prevent the
possibility of corruption. He felt it difficult to believe
in the sincerity of those who opposed the ballot on the
ground that it would promote deception and encourage
a spirit of disingenuousness, and that it would be found
ineffectual for the object it was intended to accomplish.
He believed the opposition offered to the ballot arose
from a love of power. Its opponents could not divest
themselves of a notion that they had a right to direct
and govern the votes of those who lived on their estates,
or with whom they dealt. They were averse to the
measure because they had no confidence in the people,
and they had no confidence iu themselves.—(Hear, hear)
They talked about the just influence of property; but
what was the just influence of property? It was this—
that when a possessor of property was a humane and
considerate man, he would be respected and looked
up to by those around him, who would be anxious
to know his opinions, and who would probably in most
cases be guided by his views; but anything be-
yond that was tyranny.—(Hear, ate) If it ware
considered desirable that property should have more in- •
fluenee, that House had better pass a law providing that
people should have votes iu proportion to their property.
That would be preferable to the present system, which
pretended to give people votes, but which was nothing
bitter than a mockery and a delusion. It was said that
the ballet would be ineffectual to accomplish the object
it was intended to effect. Ho would admit that that
might perhaps happen in some small places ; but the
conclusion to which he came was that the franchise ought
not to be continued in such small places, but that larger
bodies ought te be invested with the right of electing
Members of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
say that he considered the ballot would be a panacea for
all evils, or that it might not be attended with some dis-
advantages as well as with great advantages. Ha was
not, in favour of doing things in secret, and he thought
it would be much better if all electors had the manliness
and independence to exercise their franchise without de-
ferring to the influence of others, and if persons in the
higher classes were too bighminded to stoop to intimida-
tion and corruption. But when be knew the situation tu
which families had been reduced because electors had given
their votes conscientiously, he considered that they ought
not to call upon men to make such sacrifices for the enjoy-
merit of the privilege or right which the constitution had
placed in their hands. It was said that the ballot would
be useless, because the electors would themselves divulge
in what way they had voted; but was it likely, when it
was important to a man that his votes should not be
known, that he would be so great a fool as to proclaim
for whom his vote had been given? He (Lord I). Stuart)
thought, however, that it was likely, after a time, that
the habit of concealing votes would be laid aside. He
believed that if they had the ballot, the rich and power-
ful would by degrees abandon their attempts to tyrannize
and to corrupt, that things would then be placed upon a
better footing, and that the people would nut be anxious
to conceal their votes. In the recent discussions on the
Irish franchise, they had heard something from Hon.
Gentlemen opposite of the leaven of democracy, and of
that House proceeding in a downward course. He was
not afraid if the leaven of democracy ; he wanted the
people to have the constitutional right of electing their
own representatives, and he considered that, when that
House Ras really and truly elected by the people, and
was more: in harmony with their wist es and desires, so
far from being lowered it would be greatly elevated.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the ballot would tend
to the general welfare and benefit of the nation, and the
motion before the House had therefore his hearty con-
currence.

The question baying been put,
Sir G. GREY said, he would not occupy the atten-
tion of the House for more than a few minute!, but, as
the mover of the resolution had devoted a considerable
portion of his speech to a discussion of his (Sir G. Grey's)
conduct upon this question, he would in a very few sen-
tences gratify the Hon. Gentleman's curiosity, by in-
forming him what were the opinions he entertained, and
what course he intended to take on the motion before
the House. Ho differed from that Hon. Gentleman in his
estimate of the importance of the ballot. He (Sir G.
Grey) never had stated that he considered the question
one of vast importance ; and when be had supported a
motion for the ballot, he had said that ho had no great
confidence in the success of the plan. He had supported
it, however, in deference to the opinions of a large body of
constituents, to whom he owed much, and who had given
him most disinterested support. That constituency, by
petitions addressed to that House, had certainly persuaded
him of their desire to obtain the ballot as a protection
for some of their number, with regard to whom he stated
at the time that he thought undue influence had been
exercised, and fer whom he endeavoured to procure the
protection they required. He agreed very much in the
opinion which had been expressed a few nights ago by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the advantages
and evils of the ballot were both greatly exaggerated.
The more he had heard the question argued, and the
more consideration he had given to it, the morn satisfied
he was that so far from preventing bribery, the ballot,
if adopted, would in some constituencies greatly facili-
tite the commission of wholesale bribery, and in most
constituencies would render it difficult to bring home
acts of bribery to particular parties. At the same time
he thought there were cases where the power of
giving secret votes might enable honest voters to
exercise the franchise according to their own
judgment and conscience, free from external con-
trol.—(Hear, heir.) He believed, however, that
in the vast majority of cases the ballot, if
adopted, would be actually inoperative. He did not
think it would be a panacea for intimidation or bribery.
He considered that publicity was of the very essence of
our elective franchise.—(Bear, hear.) He would say
nothing about the ballet being English or un-English,
but he would say that under its operation the record of
the vote would not be, in 90 cases out of 100, the first
indication of the intention and opinions of the voter.—
(Hear, hear.) Where the political opinions of candi-
dates were marked and distinct, and where the great
majority of the electors were divided into marked and
distinct classes, the relative strength of parties was well
known, and the candidates knew upon what voters they
could rely. Ho believed, therefore, that if secret voting
were adopted, publicity would still remain as the very
essence of our electoral system. The question then was
—whether it was necessary or expedient to adopt the
ballot for the protection of a minority of voters? He
hail stated that, on the occasion which had been re-
ferred to, he hail, in deference to the expressed wishes
of his constituents, but with hesitation and reluctance,
having no confidence in the efficacy of the remedy,
given his support to the remedy they 'had suggested.
The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Berkeley) had said that be
(Sir G. Grey) stated last ye ir that the political virtue
and purity of the elective classes had so far in-
creased that he (Sir G. Grey) thought the t allot no
longer necessary. The Honourable Gentleman had in-
v lited that speech for hire.—(A laugh.) lie would ask
the Hon. Gentleman where ho could find it, for he (Sir
G. Grey) had used no such expressions. What he had
said was, that of late years the growing influence of

petilic opinion hal produced a much more powerful
check than formerly exited egainet the use of those
undue means which had been frequently exercised with a
view to induce electors to vote contrary to their opinions.
Ife herd th, lion. Gentlemen cini-1 Fre ttr,t,
totally daerent thing- from extolliote pelitieel virtue
end purity. Ile (Se. G. Grey) heti spoken ot. public
epinion es expressed threugh the press, in the in untrv,
eel ie. that reoutee eed ui ale e.e.posu., elk.% iolloy tee
attempts to intimidate or corrupt electors; and he be-
lieved that this afforded a better eecurity thee any lew
that could be adopted by the Legislature. He believed
that if they were to adopt the ballot they would not
protect that class of electors who, with !mown poli-
tical opinions, wished to abstain from voting. Their
opinions being known, they might still be prevected
from voting by undue influence. With regard to the
various lights in which the franchise was regarded,
he differed from those who treated it as a mere
privilege, for he considered the franchise, not as a
mere privilege, but as a trust conferred for the bene-
fit of the community, and which should therefore be
exercised in the face of the community. Tl.cie consi-
derations induced him, in the excecise of his own judg•
ment, which he felt bound to follow, under the present
circumstances of the country, when there was no ap-
pearaece of the ballot being required, when there was
no expression'of public opinion:on the subject, and when ho
believed the people:generally did not desire hough
the lion. Geutleenen opposite (Mr. Berkeley) had by a
lucky accident carried his motion by a very narrow ma-
jority last year—to decline to concur with the Hon.
Gentleman in the ci7aege he proposed—a ehaege which
he (Sir G. Grey) eetieeed would confer anvantages
upon a very small portion of ihe community, and which
advantages would, in his opinion, he counterbalanced by
the evils which would follow with respect to bribery
and corruption.—(clear, hear, and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. M. GII3SON said it appeared that upon these
questions of reform they were not to be allowed to have
fair debates, for /lon. Gentlemen opposite called fir a
division almost before the Right Hon. Homo Secretary
had declared the views of the Government.

Sir G. GREY—My own views.—(A cry of" Hear.")
Mr. M. GIBSON was glad to hear they were not the
views cf the Government, and that this was an open
question.—(Hear, hear.) Upon sea eral recent occasions
lion. Gentleman opposite had urged the importance of
ascertaining the independent views and opinions of the
tenant-farmers of England; and one Hon. Gentleman
had expressed his desire that the true opinions of that
class, free from all external influences, should be heard
in that House. He (Mr. Gibson) was
prepared to give
the tenant-farmers on opportunity of so expressing their
opinions, and for that purpose he would give them the
protection of the ballot.—(" Oh! oh!" and laughter.)
The Right Hon. Home Secretary had stated that when
he voted fur the ballot ho had done so in deference to
the opinions of the electors who sent him to that House;
and it was his (Mr. Gibson's) conviction,e from the
knowledge he had of tenant-farmers, that if Honour-
able Gentlemen opposite voted in deference to the
opinions of thoso who sent them to Parliament,
the tenant occupiers, they would support the ballot.—
(Laughter, cries of " Oh! oh!" and cheers.) The Right
Honourable Baronet had said that the ballot would
be inoperative in the great majority of cases. Where,
then, was the danger of trying the experiment, if that
system might be called an experiment which was in full I
operation in Lenny other countries ? He (11r. Gibson)
would venture to say that in no ether country where the
ballot had been adopted would they find the electoral
holy willing to relinquish ia—(Hear, hear.) The bal-
lot was required for that minority of cases—if minority
it were—where undue or improper influence was exer-
cised upon electors ; and to eay that the ballot would
be inoperative in a great majority of cases was no valid
argument against it. They might apply that rule to
their. police regulations, to their criminal law, and to
other institutions which, in a great majority of cases,
were inoperative—(Hear, hear)—but the question
was, did they come into operation in any minority
of eases where the protection of the law was re-
qeired ? What public object did they gain by im-
posing publicity us the condition of a man giving his
vote ? As they imposed upon every elector the obliga-
tion to publish his vote, they were bound to show
the public advantage of such a restraint. Were elec-
tors, he asked, to vote as they themselves wished, or
nut ? Ile believed the House would say they ought to
vote according to their own wish and conscience. If,
then, by compulsory publicity, they compelled a man
to vote otherwise than he would have done with the
protection of the ballot, they violated the principle on
which they gave that man a vote; namely, that he
should use it according to his own conscience and
opinions. If, on the other hand, publicity had no effect,
and the man voted just as he otherwise would have
dose, then this obligatory restraint and publicity were of
no value. If the electoral body were known to be at
liberty to exercise their own free convictions in voting,
there would be less of claptrap agitation; a candidate
would more maturely consider his speeches when he
knew that they would be weighed by unbiassed under-
standings, whilst at the same time a higher teno of
thought would be engendered in the constituency. At
present, indeed, many a man would rather not hear
arguments upon a public question, fearieg that his con-
vicions might oblige him to vote against his interest.—
(A laugh.) That aas the case in a great many instances
in many small boroughs where considerable influence
was c xereised.—(Hear, hear.) With the ballot, timid
men would no longer be deterred from voting through
fear of mobbing, or of having to pass through two lines
of men using expressions perhaps not very agreeable to
hear. The argument for open voting—its being un-
Ecglish, that it should be secret—might be used in favour
of requiring a man, wben he made his will, to publish it
at the church door.—(Oh!) If' the genuine voice of the
constituency were desired, they should have the protec-
tion of secrecy in recordbag their votes.—(Bear, hear.)
Mr. J. WILLIAMS had felt it his duty, on behalf
of those who desired to use the franchise without per-
mission from or under the compulsion of their customers
to corroborate last year the Honourable Member's (Mr.
11. Berkeley's) statements of the disgraceful state of
thraldom in which the inhabitants of this metropolis
were plunged, and was enabled to point out also the de-
moralisation of constituencies in Wales—his own native
country. The Honourable Member had well remarked,
that although for the la 't few years the screws and en-
gines of compulsion had not been retorted to, unless in
particular instances, with that fierce determination which
marked their use in times of great political excitement,
yet it was a miserable argument to pretend that there-
fore intimidation had gone out of fashion. Let the aris-
tocracy now, if they could, or at any time, stir up an
election, and we should have the same scenes enacted
which ho ventured to deserib3 last session. Carriages,
with their titled occupants, would roll from door to door,
as they did in 1841, the threats and cajolery of ladies—
(Loud laughter)—belng carried to a much greater ex-
tent with tradesmen than their male relatives dared to',
go.—(Renewed laughter, and cries of "Hear, hear.")
As a plain man—(A laugh)--but, he trusted, an'
honest one—(Bear, hear)—he was utterly unable to
comprehend how llon. Members could defend the pre-
sent system. Why not be honest, and say that it was
folly to eetrtua the present class of voters with the fran-
chise, but that a man should vote so many times accord-
ing to hie property? To qualify one set of men to elect
representatives, and thew permit that privilege to be
usurped by another, was contrary to reason and common
sense.—(Hear, hear.) It was in vain to deny this state
of things. In the cduntry the landlord alone was always
canvassed; and when. estates changed hands, the voters
adopted the politics of the new masters. How much
better for an auctioneer putting up an estate to describe
it as well timbered and watered, abounding in natural
hares, rabbits, pike, trout, and
e
merket and polling-place at a convenient dis-
tance?—(Laughter.) Of all practices most abhorrent
productions, pheasants,
to an Englishman was this systena of intimidation, openly
repudiated, but quietly winked at and encouraged.—
(Hear.) The system had been maintained too long by
thoroughgoing Tories and half-going Whigs, until it had
become a scandal and disgrace to a civilized nation.—
(Hear, hear.) Parliament should extend the suffrage to
its permitted limits, and allow men to vote who now re-
fused, and give the middle and lower classes the power
of expressing their real opinions. He should vote for
the ballot.

Mr. HE ALD entirely dissented from the proposition,
that this motion ought to be agreed to on the ground
that the electors of this country required the protection
of the ballot. He did not admit that it would be a pro-
tection to them—(Hear, hear)—and he begged to state
that the electoral body did not ask for, desire, or wish
for such protection.—(Hear, hear.) They prided them-
selves on being kiown as supporting certain principles
and favourite candidates.—(Hear.) As for the minority
to whom the Home Secretary had referred, who were
they? He represented a popular borough, and he was
prepared to state that not merely four-fifths of the con-
stituency of that borough, but nine-tenths, did not want
the ballot—(Hear)—they felt it would be a reflection
upon their integrity and their preparedness to avow what
were their views on great public questions.—(Hear,
hear.) And he honoured that principle.—(Cheers.)
He would be the last to part with any essential
feature of our English character.—(Hear, hear.)
Ho was not ashamed of any vote he ever gave ;
candidates were examined opealy onthe hustings, and,
as one who was canvassed as to his views, he claimed a
right to be dealt with openly and fairly.—(Hear, hear.)
There was a small minority indeed in all our constitu-
encies that was to be regarded under a very different
view--a nondescript party—(A laugh)—at every elec-
tion hanging in the balance--(Laughter)—and waiting
almost till the poll was about to close before they would
determine for whom, if the election was nicely poised,
they would vote.—(Hear, hear.) Was the country to
part with a long-established and greatly . honoured sys-
tem of taking the Eel:A) of the constituency of the
empire merely to meet the case of this small minority?
—(Hear, hear.) The sooner the country was relieved
from any kind of premium or advantage, or protection
given to that small proportion of the constituency, the
purer and the freer, and the more satisfactory, would be
the record of the votes of the electoral body,—(bear.)
Mr. BRIGHT felt that it would be extremely satis-
factory it' the very favourable character which the Hon.
Gentleman had given of his constituency could
be believed to be true of the constituencies generally.
Stockport was a borough not remarkable for its purity
—(A laagh)—for the little cost of elections—(Hear)—
or the absence of tumult at them.—(Hear.) He (Sir.
Bright) knew something- of Stockport.—(A laugh.) It
was a town almost entirely supported by the cotton
trade; many of the firms there were wealthy and pow-
cad', employing frem 500 to 2,000 persons, and having
influence over all the tradesmen in the town who supplied
the articles necessary in the wear and. tear of those es-
tablishments. The large millowner, in a moderate size
town, was very much in the position of a largo pro-
prietor of land, having labourers and tenants dependent
on him. He himself was in the position he was de-
scribing—(A laugh)—namely, employing a large num-
ber of persons, and seeing constantly at his counting-
house the people employed in the various subsidiary
manufactures of the neighbourhood coming to receive
their orders or payment of their ACCOUIItS. The influence

against which the ballot was intended to guard existed
to a very large extent; and it depended upon the mo-
rality and the conscientiousness of those who had that
influence, whether it should be used against the rights
f the elentors subjected to ie—(Bear.) Without
making any charee in re ferenee to Stockport more tian
Rochdale or the nietropoli 4, he would ask the House
whether,-when party spitit ran high, (as it often did in
small t leflls even were there seemed very little to right
about), it was not known that this influence was con-
stantly exercised by candidates and by employers con-
nected with all political parties?—(Hear, hear.) lie
solemnly believed that every man in the House was as
conscious as himself that in the great, majority of elec-
tions, whether for counties or boroughs, particularly if
the constituency was limited and the contest ran keen,
this influence was constantly exercised adversely to the
independent and conscientious voting of a great number
of the electors—(Hear, hear)—and the borough of
Stockport was no exception .—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman said that nine-tenths of his constituency did
nut want the ballot; nine-tenths of them did not vote fur
him—(Oh, oh!)—but he would probably be asked to
present a petition in favour of the ballot, signed by a
majority of those electors.—(flette.) In the neighbour-
hood in which he (Mr. Bright) lived—in Lancashire—
where probably the electoral classes whereas independent
'as in any portion of the kingdom, a great majority of
them, he believed, were in favour of the ballot; and the
principal reason why the Members of that House did not
give them the ballot was the knowledge that with it the
returns in many constituencies would be very different
from what they now were.—(flear, heir.) He was
amazed at some gentlemen opposite, great sticklers for
morality, quoting all parts of Scripture in favour of all
kinds of questionable propositious—(Laughter)—Gen-
tlemen who assumed to be the defenders of the Church
and of that Christianity which the Church was supposed
to embody—,'Oh, oh!)—he was aitinished that, seeing
the immorality—(Oh!)—seeing the cruelty and oppres-
sion exercised on the part a powerful and wealthy men
towards the more dependent classes of the electors,
these Gentlemen should oppose a proposition like this,
against which the most that could be said was, that it
would not do all the good its advocates expected.
The time was not very far distant when the whole
of this representative system, the franchise and mode of
election, would be subjected to a more thorough investi-
gation and reform.—(Oh, oh! and Hear.) The thing
was so monstrous upon the face of it that we were ex-
posed to the ridicule of every foreigner who examined
it.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, ohl") And it would
be wise for gentlemen, instead of raising unmeaning
laughs—(Oh, oh 1)—to adduce arguments, if they had
any—(ohl)—in f tvour of a system which was ridiculous
in theory, and which in practice was fund to create
great evils and to cause great discontent throughout the
country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MASTERMAN (who was very imperfectly
heard) was understood to express his opinion that it was
not desirable that votes should be concealed. He should
rather know at all times who were. his friends and who
were his enemies than remain in ignorance as to the
character and feelings of his constituents.
Mr. MUNTZ observed that the 'Hon. Member oppo-
site had stated the views upon this question of the
electors of the borough which he rbpresented, and had
told the House that not above one-tenth of, them was
favourable to the ballot. Now, he should say that as
far as his experience went in one borough at least, it
showed that a very large proportion of its constituency
desired the ballot, and if he were asked to what class
they belonged. he should say to a highly respectable
class, who refused to exercise the franchise, feeling that
they could scarcely venture to do so with justice to their
families. He remembered, some years ago, at an elec-
tion for that borough which ho now had the honour
to represent, the parties on both sides came to him
and asked if he had any objection that they should
see his workmey, but they added that they supposed
it would be of no use, for, of course, the men were
already pledged to vote as he might dictate. To
this his reply was, that they could canvass his men
if they pleased—that be would as soon think of
meddling with a man's pocket as with his vote.—(Hear,
hear.) But, though he did not interfere with his men,
the application to him in his own borough showed how
the system of open voting worked; and it was the same
in all manufacturing towns. The majority of the
masters were as tyrannical towards the working men as
the ladies were towards the shopkeepers. He asked,
would they give to men the privilege of voting and not
protect them in the exercise of that privilege? Let
them look at the effect of vote by ballot in Belgium. It
was established there in 1830, and he had every reason
to believe that it worked very well to the satisfaction of
all men in that country. The ballot was not now a part
of our system in this country, but it would soon become
so; it would not fail to bo so in some time. It was
ridiculous to talk of doing everything openly; men did
net leave their account-books and papers open to all the
world. _ _ _

Colonel SIBTHORP had no objection to make to
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Manchester,
but, in reference to the remarks of the Hon. Member
for Birmingham, he must be allowed to observe that he
by no means concurred with that Hon. Gentleman in
wishing that England should imitate foreign nations.
He entertained a decided objection to the introduction of
foreign manners and customs; even the Exposition d In-
dustrie—(A. laugh)—did not appear to him so admirable
a project as some thought it. He had listened with in-
flnits pleasure to the observations that night made by
his excellent Mend the Member fur London, for that
Hon. Gentleman relied on his own integrity and his own
consistency, and was never afraid of open voting. Dur-
ing more than twen'y years he (Colonel Sibthorp) had
the honour of a seat in that House,—bow long ho might
continue to retain that seat he did not know, but of this
he felt assured, that his manner of voting in that House
would undergo no change. He should despise the voter
who supported him in a covert, tricky, un-English man-
ner, and ho could say in the face of a British House of
Commons that he had never bribed any voter, nor ever
influenced a tenant. He did not know what the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government might say to vote
by ballot, but for his part he should never cease to op-
pus,. it.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUME would judge the Hon. Member who spoke
last from his own words; he talked of the practice being
un-Englisb. Let him look at the clubs of London.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh!') The ballot no doubt might work
an unpleasant and extraordinary change in the House of
Commons; but he remembered the time when it was de-
fended by those who opposed it now. As to the state-
ments by the Hon. Member for Stockport, he could not
help saying that that Hon. Gentleman was altogether
mistaken—he had libelled his own constituents, for
within the last three weeks a public meeting had been
held there at which thousands of the inhabitants declared
in favour of the ballot. If the ballot were established there
would be no bribery, for who would " buy a pig in a
poke?" He thought that the Hon. Member for London
was also mistaken.

Mr. MASTERMAN said be had never stated that
his constituents were against the ballot; what he said
%VW, that they had never intimated to him that they
wanted it.

Mr. HUME resumed. There had !:.en twenty-five
meetings in London recently which bad declared in
favour of the ballot. The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey) said there was no demand for the ballot. The
reason was that the people knew too well the constitution
of the House—(Hear, hear)—the fact being that at
almost every popular meeting they declined to petition
the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) He had only
this to say, that they who used the ballot to protect
themselves acted unjustly, un-English, and unmanly in
refusing it to others.—(Cheers.)
Mr. 11EAL1) rose to explain. He said he was certain
thst neither the Hon. Member for Montrose nor the lion.

Member for Manchester wished to misrepresent him.
What he said was that he believed nine-tenths of the
constituency of the empire, including his own, did not
require the ballot as a means of protection in recording
their votes.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh!") His argument
was that such a proportion prided themselves in having
it known what were their distinctive principles, and who
was their favourite caudidate.—(" Oh, oh !")
Mr. BERKELEY replied—He said he would detain the
House only a very few minutes, for he did not find that
he had much ta answer.—(Cheers.) Ho bad first to
accept the explanation of the Right lion. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), and to assure him that ho had never meant to
attribute to him the use of at y words expressive of trans-
cendent virtues and purity in relation to the upper classes;
he only ascribed the sentiment to the Right Hon.
Baronet, who had borne him out in this interpretation.
With respect to the ballot it would be a cure for
bribery in large constituencies, but not in small. ones.
He had beard nothing to-night that had at all shaken
his opinion respecting the ballot, which he did not,
however, pretend was a panacea for the evils which he
desired to remedy. He was convinced that these small
constituencies must, sooner or later, be done away with.
It bad been said, that if the ballot became a law, a man
would be compelled to secrecy; but this was a mistake.
A man might go and proclaim his vote; he might march.
up to the polling booth with banners and music if he
chose; but if he saw that he would be ruined by taking
a certain course, the ballot afforded him proper protec-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that he should find
himself supported on the present occasion by all those
Members who had heretofore voted in favour of the
ballot.—(Cheers.)
The Ilouse then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... •-• 121
Against it ... ..• 176
Majority ... --55
The announcement of the numbers was received with
cheering by the friends of the ballot.
Lord SIELGUND moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to reform and extend the school establishments of Scot-
land. The Noble Lord, who was very indistinctly
heard, was understood to say that many defects existed
iu the school establishments of Scotland, for which a re-
medy was demanded, and this he intended in some
degree to supply by the measure which he wished to in-
troduce. Ile proposed to establish some educational
test for teachers, and to raise as high as possible the
profession and status of that class of the community. lie
would give large parishes the power of dividing them-
selves into districts for educational purposes, and he
would enable adjoining localities to unite together and
form themselves into unions for the same object. If
leave were given to bring in the Bill, he would explain
more fully on a future occasion the provisions of the
measure ; but ho felt that at that late hour he would not
be justified in detaining the House.
Sir G. CLERK regretted that the lateness of the
hour had prevented the Noble Earl from stating more at
length the nature of the Bill. He would not oppose the
introduction of the measure, hut he hoped that ample time
would be given ti consider it in all its bearings before the
House was called upon to discuss either the principle
or the details.
Le svo was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. WOOD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to pre-
vent the holding of vestry or other meetings in churches,
and for regulating the appointment of vestry-clerks.
The Bill was not intended to be one of a compulsory
nature, but to enable parishes of more than 1,000 inha-

bitant; to make application to the Poor-law
Commis-
sioners for power to extend iti prOvisiens to such
parishes. It was proposed to authorise the payment Of
vestry-clerks out of the ra•les of the parish. •.
Leave w.la t!) bring in the Bill.
Mr. ADA IR obta,'ned leave ti bring in a Bill to
provide for the more equitable tiiitribution of .the
charge for the relief of the poor in eetta.in cities :and
_ _

Oa the motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered
of the name of each of her Majesty's ships of war in
commission and in ordinary on the let of January, 1850,
and by whom built, &c.; of the number . of ships in
commission and in ordinary in each year, since 1828; and
an account of the sums expended on each ship in build•
ing and repairing, Sac., since 1828.
Mr. BAINES move-1 for leave to bring in a Bill to
Make better provision fir the contributions of unions and
parishes in school districts to the common Lund of the
respective districts: The object of the Bill was to le-
move some doubts that had arisen as to the meaning of
en Act passed in 1844 on this subject, and which con-
tained a number of very valuable provisions. It related
to the contributions made to district schools. The ave-
rages were at present taken at different periods in the
various parishes comprising each union, and one object
of the present Bill was to take the a;erages simulta-
neously. Again, there was no provision in the present
law to add one parish to a school district composed of a
certain number of unions. The Bill would provide for
this also, and, as an instance, he might mention that the
parish of St Luke, Chelsea, would be added to the North
Surrey Union school district.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. TRELAWNY gave notice that he would ask the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether any
steps had been taken in parsuance of a sort of under-
tatting given by him (Lord J. Russell) in 1847, that ter-
rain persons connects 1 with tt:e union schools should
have some of the small offices of the State.
CHARI CABLE TRUSTS BILL. •

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the senora
rut-ling of this Bill.

Mr. TURNER opposed it, on the ground of the late-
ness of the hour and the thinness of the House.
The Bill was postponed de die in diem, to give the
Solicit ir-General the first available opportunity to
move it.

The House went into Committee on the
REGISTRAR OF METROPOLITAN PUBLIC

CARRIAGES BILL.

In reply to Mr. BANKES,
Mr. C. LEWIS stated that the proposed compensa-
tion of the present officers would effect a saving to the
public.
The Bill was passed through Committee.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

PARLIAMhN TAR Y DIVISIONS.

From the Yotes and Proceedings of the House of Connsoned

THURSDAY, MARCH 7.
KILRUSEI UNION.

Motion made, and Question put, " That an humble Ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
graciously pleased to appoint a Special Commission to in-
quire into the social state of the Union of Kilrush, and into
the means that may be adopted for its amelioration." The
House divided :