The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

LONDON

(Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had addressed the Rouse
with no party spirit or party purpose, and his object was
not, as intimated by the Chancellor' of the Exchequer,
to pass a vote of censure on the Ministry.—(Hear, hear.)
So determined, however, was the flight. Hon. Geutleinan
to prevent the full discussion of opinion me the subjeer,
that he had charged the Hen. Member for Oxford with
making an attack upon the Government. He (Mr. New-
degate) had vet to learn that a Government had the
right to to forbid an expression of opinion upon a ques-
tion of expendituae, and still less had her Majesty's
Government a right to preclude discussion on the pre-
sent occasion, as they themselves had, by the appointment
of a Committee, admitted that inquiry into the public ex-
penditure was necessary and expedient. It did not
follow by any means that because the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had instanced cases of the St. Kathe-
rine Docks Company and the Great Western Railway
Company, who had been imprudent, that the House of
Commons was not to inspire into the expenditure of the
country, or advise her Majesty's Government upon the
course which they considered it most desirable to adopt.
—(Hear, hear.) Those corporarions were altogether
alien to the suhjeet-matter of the present motion. The
object of his Hon. Friend was not t i discharge the pub-
lic servants engaged in the various departments of the
Government, nor was it even by implication to cast cen-
sure upon the Ministry, but it simply amounted to this,
that inasmuch as we had arrived at an epoch in our
commercial policy which had caused a decline in the
value of ail the necessaries of life, an opportunity was
afforded thereby for a revision o salaries, and for an
inquiry into the remuneration of the labour of the
public servants. He could show the House, by reference
to circumstances which had taken place in years
gone by, that the present proceeding was not
without precedent. He would allude to periods sub-
sequent to 1703—the period chosen by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer—and he could show that, in the year
1801, the salaries of the artiz ens employed in the Ord-
nance-office had been increased, under the sanction of
Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the high price of food and
the necessaries cf life. At that period it a•as proposed
to increase the salary of a Mr. Rose, but he, to his
credit be it said, declined to receive it. on the ground
that he had other sources of employment and did not
require it.—(hear, hear.) He could also state that, in
1810, the Excise officers of Edinburgh had memorialised
the Treasury for an increase of salary, and that, in 1812,
the Commissioners of Excise had petitioned for an in-
crease of the salaries of their department, and that Lord
Liverpool, who was then in office, granted the applica-
tion, on the ground that inasmuch as food and all the
necessaries of life had become exceedingly dear, it was
just and reasonable to increase the salaries of the
public servants. He had alluded to those cases, because
he considered them important, and applicable to the
point under consideration. The reduction in prices that
had recently taken place operated to the advantage of
the recipient of fixed money incomes. A reduction of
25 per cent. on au article like 100 sacks of wheat, worth,
say 100/., was an advantage to the owner of the salary
equal not merely to one-feurth, but to one-third of the
whole cost. The low rate of wheat hail been adverted
to by his Hon. Friend as a proof of prosperity. Great
delusions had taken place on that subjf et. The lowness
of the rate of interest arose from the fluctuations in our
commercial and monetary regulations. The money
market was often glutted because the investing parties
had no profitable means of employing their capitol. He
rejoiced that his Hon. Friend. who iutroduced the mo-
tion, had shown beyond a doubt, that if Government had
the will they could effect very great reductions in the
salaries of the public departments, for, as he had pointed
out, those salaries exceeded the amount paid for the
army and navy services. That being the case,
he would recommend to the Honourable Mem-
ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), when
he next addressed parties out of that House, to tell
those parties that there was another way of practising
economy than by reducing and weakening the delences
of the country, and that he would not venture to affirm,
as he had been doing, that there was no other mode by
which economy could be practised than by reducing
those establishments. His Honourable Friend had
shown that Government had a sum of seven millions and
a half with which they could deal, the whole of which
was paid to parties resident in this country, who were
deriving the full bent fit of the reduction iu the prices,
and in respect of whom reductions could be made in
consequence. In the pay of the soldier they could not
make reductions, for more than half of his life was passed
in foreign countries, where he was deuied the advantage
from the reduction of prices in this country. Should
they deal with the consular establishments, they were
in the same situation ; tut, taking into considera-
tion the whole question, he would leave it to
the country to decide who were the true poli-
tical economists. Was it his Hon. Friend who recom-
mended that a per-centage, equal to half the advautsges
which the holders of those salaries were deriving from
the reduction of prices, should be taken off the salaries;
or was it those who, like the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, proposed to adopt the expenditure of a year
long past, without at all considering the altered circum-
stances of the then state of things and the present? To
his mind there could be no donut as to which of the two
parties were operating in the right direction. The one
adopted the expenditure of 1835 as the Shibboleth of a
movement, and toe the basis of an agitation, in order that
by means of it they might get introduced into that
House motions which they were sure the common sense
of the Members of the House would not allow them to
support, and then to go forth and hold up to the ridicule
of inflited mobs the men who opposed their foolish
motions; but who were, in fact, contending for reduc-
tions in the expenditure in the only competent and just
ground on which it could be granted. The other party
were those who demanded those reductions in the man-
ner he had just stated, and as those demands were just
he hoped the House would show on that occasion that it
would respond to them.
After a lapse of a short time strangers were ordered
to withdraw, but
Mr. HUME at length rose, and said that he considered
the motion of the Ron. Member for Oxfordshire one of
a practical and useful nature. With respect to the Com-
mittee appointed :by the Noble Lord, he did not think
any thing useful would result from the proposed inquiry,
which was limited to three branches of the service, and
on which the Government possessed all the necessary in-
formation. The Noble Lord was well aware of the du-
ties of the officers appointed by the Crown, and nothing
but the will was wanting to carry out such reductions as
he might think necessary. What was the proposition of
the Noble Lord ? A Committee "to inquire into the
salaries and emoluments of offices held during the plea-
sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Par-
liament, voted in the annual estimates; and also into
the salaries and emoluments of judicial officers in the
superior courts of law and equity in the United King-
dom, and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges;
and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments
charged on the Consolidated Fund." He (Mr. Hume)
thought the inquiry ought to be extended to other
branches; and he should have advised the Noble Lord
to adopt the motion of the Hon. Gentleman in deference
to public opinion.—(Hear.) He aid not think much re-
duction could he made in the salaries of the clerks, but
he was of opinion that their number might be consider-
ably diminished. The country would not rest satisfied
unless further inquiry was instituted. But after the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not
think that any one could expect to see the inquiry ex-
tended.
Lord J. RUSSELL—It is now going on.
Mr. HUME was aware of that, but he wished a re.
vision of all departments. Not that he was disposed to
refuse adequate salaries. Quite the contrary. He
would willingly increase salaries and pay of all kinds,
provided they could get rid of the enormous amount ex-
pended in pensions and half-pay. To say that all salaries
should be reduced to a certain ext,nt would not be fair.
He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should have alluded to the parish .of Marylebone. A
more unfortunate instance could not have been referred
to. He had himself spent three Saturdays in investi-
gating their accounts- The auditors compared the ex-
penditure of fifteen different parishes, and it appeared
that Marylebone was the most extravagant of them all.
—(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was
inquiry. No injustice was contemplated by it, nor
any reduction that would impair the public service.
What objection, then, could be urged against it of any
weight? He was ready to support any proposal likely
to be beneficial for the country. He did not think the
motion attributed any blame to the Government, and he
should veto for it without intending to impute such
blame. He regretted the Government should have ob-
jected to the motion, because an impression would goforth
that they were not desirous of inquiry. He thought the
Noble Lord should have followed the example which he
himself gave in 1830, when he obtained the appointment
of a Committee to inquire into the salaries of beads of
offices. The reductions that had recently been made in
the Customs hid worked well. If a partial revision had
produced beneficial results, a general revision would pro-
duce much greater. They might deal with the whole
revenue, excepting the parts of it allotted to payment of
the interest of the national debt and the civil Bet,—
(Hear, hear.) lie had no desire to touch tie civil list.'
The readiness with which her Majesty had come forward
with the proposal that her inco-tae should be made liable
for the income-tax ought not to be forgotteme--(Hears)
He hoped the House would not consider this a party
vote. They were t
vote for tte
and it was thsoir. duty to promote .
ere as trustees of the public pellets
economy. lie should
air. ROEBUCK wished, in a few words, to explain
the principle on which he should vote. He intended to
vote for the motion, though he thought it a Mak itte•-
less one—a motion, in fact, almost esithollt meaning,
yet he intended to vote for it.—(lleac; hear.) The
the previous question ; but he would hal,e
Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he understood .oved
tion greater injury if he had dealt 'With it oel'itierewtihsee.maif
the Right Honourable Gentleman cad acceded Pe the
motion—a motion which had •
''ue meaning Was hot in its words;
a purpose—of which n relight forward for
and TAM eonld not elY.eet Wh.t Itte but in its intent,
mover into:Asa—if the Right iloinekliable Gentleman
had "Peeded to such ittoreeh, 'ne would have gained tn
pcceularity'of bring:an economist by consenting to a mere
truisme4ltear, hear.) Let them understand the pre%
pre4tlbts, for he liked to deal with gentlemen fired With
this new-born zeal for economy. It was for a humble
1 address to her Majesty, praying for a careful nevi-
sion of the salaries and wages paid in every deport-
ment of the public service, with a view to ade-
quate reductions therein.—(Hear, hear.) But that
was not rill; there was a guarding clause—" due regard
being had to the efficient performance of the several
duties." Was not this precisely the rule on which Mi-
nisters of the Crown had always acted ? The Noble
Lord might have accepted a proposition so qualified
without any hesitation. He wished to know who the
parties were whose salaries it was proposed to revise?
He ',greed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
the f set of more persons being employed than was ne-
cessary
er
oula be
played a
brea:foonrefotrhecountry inquiry.
as'
titto athgerreea!
numeration of their public servants. They ought to

understand where they ought to give. He was not one
who grudged adequate raytnent to the hard-working
servant. Sinecures were another affair. The lion.
Baronet the Member for Marylebone had put his linger
on a remarkable item. He hoped he should have the
support of those great economists when he came to deal
with sinecuree as he proposed to do. With reference to
the motion before them, he lied a curious return relating
to the several establishments in the public service. The
h'ghest yeas the Treasury. At present 37 persons were
employed in managing the affairs of the Treasury. It
appeared that the average age at which per-
sons began service in the Treasury was twenty
years. Every man of business knew that a
great deal had to be learned as to the mere
business of the office, however instructed a person
might enter it in other respects. If a man possessing
the highest university honours were placed in the office,
he would be as a child as regarded the business to be
done. He would go there as 'a learner or student in the
public, service. He entered at the age of 20, with a she
of 901. a year. He must be there two years before
any rise of salary can be granted. At present the clerks
in the Treasury were divided into four classes. The
salaries of the first class were from 901. to 1001. a-year; I
on an average a clerk would he 32 before he obtained
2001. a-year. The salaries of the second class were from
100!. to 5001.; on an average a clerk would be 50 before
he got his 5001. a-year. The question was,
were these gentlemea far they were gentle
men overpaid? The salaries of the third class
were from 5001. to SOO/. a-year. The last class are those
with salars of 1,000/. a-year; but before that salary
could be obtained, the age of 59 must have been reached.
—(Hear, hear.) He was talking of the ordinary work-
ing men—not of those with political influence to push
them on.—(llea", hear.) Now, looking to the habits
of this country—for they must look to habits—looking
to what a man must go through before ha could tit
himself for the office, and looking to the po-
sition he must hold in a great town like
London, where he had to meet others in the
position of gentlemen—was it to be said that a
man was overpaid who, at 60, found himself at the
highest salary in a public office of 1,0001. a year?—
(Hear, hear.) Would any man who lead devoted his
years to the law think himself overpaid at 60 by obtain-
ing 1,0001. a year?—(Hear.) Then let them consider
the position of the clerk. From day to day his family
depended on his being able to perform his duty in his
office. In dealing with such men it was only fair to take
into account the ordinary exigencies of society. Was it
to be said that, the State should be niggardly to such
men, when, if they had adopted a mercantile life, they
would have been better paid?—(A.a Hon. Member—
" No."] An Hon. Gentleman said, no. Why, let them
take any large mercantile establishment. Let them take
the Bank of England. It appeared that the cashier had
1,4001. a year, with a free residence; the assistant
cashier, 1,0001.; the accountant, 1.2001.; and the as-
-
sistaet-accountant, 9701. a year. There was no niggard
liness either in the disposition of the East India Company
with respect to the payment of their servants.—( Hear.)
Those servants were well paid, but they were efficient
men, who worked well, and, considering the nature of
their duties and the offices they filled, they were not
overpaid. But making all these admissions, knowing
the policy of Government, and maintaining, as' he did,'
that all those who rendered good service to the State
ought to be well paid, he would ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Administration whether it would not be
wise to disabuse the public mind of an erroneous impres-
sion which might be made upon it by his opposition to
the present motion to have a full and complete inquiry
into that subject—not for the purpose of passing a slur
on the Government, for it could not be impeached upon
that occasion, being only in the position of other Go-
vernments? There had been an opposition got up
against the present Administration such as few other
Administrations had been pressed with. It was an op-
position of an anomalous character. The peculiar fea-
tures of the present opposition were, that by legislation
on the subject of cur commercial policy, that protection
which was formerly given to the productions of the
earth had been taken away, and therefore Gentle-
men on that (the Opposition) side of the House had
been suddenly smitten with an extraordinary love of
economy.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those
Honourable Gentlemen found, and he was delighted to
observe it, that the system which had so long prevailed
ought to be discontinued, and then said that as there
was no protection for them there should no longer ba
protection for anybody else.—(Hear, and laughter.)
But the people of England were a generous people, and
he would try the question in the way in which the House
was called upon to try it in the case of the bard-working
men in our public offices.—(Hear, hear.) Men in high
stations were generally working men. The Honourable
Gentlemen on the Treasury benches at the opposite side
of the House received what were called large salaries.
He did not think these gentlemen were overpaid,
although it might be considered an unpopular sentiment
to give utterance to. He had heard it stated that the
heads of many departments of the public service were
overpaid. He confessed he did not think such was the
case. Then, if they were not—if neither the heads
were overpaid, nor the subordinates overpaid, it could
only be in the number of persons employed that the al-
leged extravagance existed, and the required reductions
made. He thought the Noble Lord would do well, there-
fore, in permitting that inquiry to take place. The Go-
vernment had an interest in that in which the interests of
the country were concerned; and therefore he consi-
dered it would have been better for the Government not
to have resisted the motion. When, therefore, he and
his friend the Hon. Member for Montrose went out into
the lobbies upon that division, they were not voting in
opposition to the present Government, but merely fer an
inquiry as to whether the service of the State was per-
formed at a rate which the State ought not to pay. He
again reiterated his impression that the Government
ought not to have resisted an inquiry into that matter.
Why should not an inquiry take place now? Why
should they have such a subterfuge with respect to it
as the moving of the previous question? The Noble
Lord conceived that the present was an inconvenient
time for such an inquiry (" No, no," from the Govern-
ment benches.) He should read the ordinary forms of
the House in the manner in which they were generally
taken. It was said that this was not the
proper time to entertain the subject, when the
previous question was moved in answer to
the motion before them. Now he would like
to know could there be a better time than the present to
entertain the subject before them? In what state was
the country? It was in circueastanees of varied tran3i-
aorta— with a new commercial policy instituted, and the
prices of the ordinary necessaries of life greatly fallen.—
(Hoar.) No man could expect anything on the part of
the country but an acquiescence in the determinations of
that House.—(Hear, hear.) He could conceive, then,
-no combination of circumstances more favourable than
the present for such an inquiry, tier could he fancy any-
thing more impolitic than the opposition offered on the
part of the Government to that motion. He believed
the people of this country would be most generous in
their payment of their deserving public servants, if only
made aware that good and efficient services hal been
rendered.—(Hear, hears) He did riot think there *as
one intelligent working man in the empire, who got his
bread by the labour of his own hands, who would not
aid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government in
paying those who did efficient service for the State. He
would oppose the motion of the Government by which
that question would be avoided!, because he thought the
people of this eountry had a right to have that question
settled nore.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL and some other Hon. Members rose to-
gether. There were loud calls for the former, and the
rest having given way, the Right Hon. Baronet proe
ceeded to say that he agreed etith so tiitich df what had
fallen from the Lion. and Learned Member who bad just
addressed the House, but particularly with regard to the
services of those occupying subordinate places in the
offices of the state, and the obligation clue from the pub-
lic to them for the fidelity and integrity with Which their
service were performed; that he was sarptised, tigreeing
with so ninth the: had been said, he should cern() to a
dilteretit conclusion from that at which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir R. Peel), however, put a different constreetion on
the intention of the motion of the Hotiodrable Member
for Oxfhedshire, and the tiiiiilnht in vehitilt it had been
met, namely, hy moving the previous question, ;loth that
construction put upon them by the lion. and Learned
Member who had just spoken: He did riot Understand
the Honourable Membet'a ilicition as one asserting that
an inquiry should be instituted into the , salaries of all
the chief offices of the Statee—iritd the diplontatiC and
judicial depaitOellta vat so'. ti!.t.l t4.ot
think the non. Gentleman's object was to lead to a Par-
liamentary investigation into those matters ; but he
rather inferred that the R9n, ckent)erpan'a resolution
went to impose, on the ( cAeinEeht that duty sought to
he itnfoead 'Oh it by the motion introduced a alien time
since by the Hen. Member for Bucleituglianisliiie Mr:
Disraeli), that the UoierittiAtent should be tno party to
make the k4..teeSsary reductions, and to ißtroduce a
ett:2ie for that purpose to the House, ehowipg where
reductions were possible. (Hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member who hist addressed the liouse said that
the roorie,n edit:Wiled a triaistia; anal thereforie;,ojigiht to
he Agreed to. Bow he (Sir IL Peel) appreneuueu that
a great many truisms htid been introduced from time to
time into that HHditse urging ouFdit riot tti be acViesced
in.—wear, and laughter.) If the doctrine of tee Ran,
and Learned Gentleman were correct, every Motßion
which implied a truisci onghl-„to aSSoptCd to.
ow
he (Sir R . Nei? lietteit the House of Uommons ought
iqtlti Vote for truisms unless they had a practical effect.
—(Hear.) Ile Considered the justification of the present
resoiation iblArfeied 06 t4iciiii44. fiiiitlOOg of the
Pee'titive Government, and it ought not, therefore, to be
agreed to, unless founded Upon some act. done, or was
calculated to effect eodte direct object: lie did not,
think
the Yheilen cVas biought forward in a bona fide spirit, and
that it was calculated to tend to the impression, that
great reductions could be made in the salaries of public
offiCetS Wiihoutretienphing thosee Which vtete not suffi-
cientiy paid. it was oeee.. onld notpontinue that
delusion that he voted as he intended to_ itY, hoar
ihees
said wags let every inquiry be made hy those h
voteda for tthe
entitled to dd Wpe4n; therefore,
in °I
8
might be made in every department of t epu pileeLittati:w4ausnstoit°l3 proper pci timeil riot;
tecttottnstidehttrawnebaYtlit.'teehtii tt;:to en.
n 45, ciidGentiottlec
Pweel)
his
t t
bad been quoted as his observations. He (Str
62o;rtiectliya stateallild nt
the
t os uab a
tsapue.:ecßhu
f. o f
no dimin
tbau ion
and military establishments were reduced,
had not laid down the position that unless the grea naval
could take place in the public expenditure.
tHenhtande
said that there was a general impression,
ll
whole of the expenditure there could be a reduction.
to
—(Hear, hear.) That expenditure had amounted
48,000,0001.; but it was a great delusion on the
could
of the public to suppose that a reduction
take place to the extent that had been mentioned_
Ile had
stetecl hat tho necessary expenditure amounted
to 3 5,000,000/., t
and that the utmost that could be dealt
with, was 13,000,000/. lie had not implied that any re-
dtiotic ‘T.t cottlA be made iu the civil establishments,J;Io