The Sun.
London, England, 1844-12-07 00:00:00

LON't)ON, SATURDAY EVENINGI DECEMBER 7, 1344.

COURT OF SEWERS.

A Court of Sewers for the City and Liberty of West-
minster, and part of the County of Middlesex, was held
yesterday evening in the office, 1, Greek-street, Soho-
square. T. L. Donaldson, Esq., in the chair.
After the routine business of the Court had been dis-
posed of,
The CHAIRMAN rose to bring before the Court a no-
tice he had caused to be inserted in the paper for the
day. It was to "call the attention of the Court, in order
to ascertain whether a Commissioner has the power of
withdrawing the books from the officers, or otherwise
interfering with them in the discharge of their duties ;
and to consider the regulations to be adopted in refer-
ence to this subject." There was no position so painful
on the part of a Chairman in the whole range of his
duties, ithan the being oblige d, by a sense of public duty,
to bring forward matter that might appear personal to
any Hon. Commissioner ; but he must, as Chairman, be
considered the confidential adviser of the officers gene-
rally, and therefore always ready to receive any informa-
tion. and to remove any obstacle to the efficient per-
formance of ;heir duties. An Hon. Commissioner, well
known for his indefatigable zeal, for his close attention
to the business of the Court, and for his unwearied dili-
gence, had occupied a considerable portion of time during
the past year in making inquiries from the officers, in
order to put himself in possession of the various trans
actions of that Court. Nothing could be mot e com-
mendable than this—showing, as it did, a more than
ordinary anxiety to make himself thoroughly acquainted
with his obligations as a Commissioner, and with the
business of that office ; but when that Commissioner
paid but too little deference to the feelings of others--
Mr. LESLIE—You had better name me at once.
The CHAIRMAN—No. lie wished to act on the broad
principle of a desire to know the limits of an Hon.
Commissioner's power, tied what was for the future to
be the relative position of himself, of Hon. Commis-
sioners, and of the officers of that Court ? This Hon.
Commissioner had examined accounts at various times—
he had the officers before him to examine and to cross-
examine. Whether this was at all within the province
of an Hon. Commissioner, and whether he was em-
powered to do so, was a great and serious question on
his (the Chairman's) mind. These inquiries might
arise from a desire of investigating into the truth of cer-
tain alleged facts ; but this might also arise from a de-
sire to catch the officers tripping, and so to bring charges
against them at the several sittings of the Court. But
he (the Chairman) must also add, that the Hon. Com-
missioner in this case, in pursuing these investigations,
had done so in a manner neither pleasing nor satisfactory
to the officers. He had examined them in a mode
harsh, offensive, and unjust, such as was not at all con-
templated in the terms of the Commission. A short
time since he had occasion to look at some book be-
longing to the clerk of the works, which he had thought
proper to take into his own custody, but ulti-
mately he handed it over not to the chief of
that, but to the chief of smother department. He would
now read a letter from Mr. Hawkins, the assistant-sur-
veyor, containing the matter which he had thought of
sufficient importance to bring in this manner before the
notice of the Court. The Chairman then read the letter
in question, dated the 19th of November, in which the
writer complained that Mr. Leslie had detained a certain
book of levels, and had handed it over to Mr. Hertzlett,
the principal clerk, with instructions not to part with it.
The writer had asked Mr. Leslie for the book, but that
Hon. Commissioner would not return it unless he
(Mr. Hawkins) would guarantee that no alterations or
erasures would be permitted on it. Under these cir-
cumstances, he had felt it his duty to communicate with
the Chairman on the subject.
Mr. MuLusis—That was a matter of grave impor-
tance.—(Cries of " Chair, chair," and repeated inter-
ruptions.) As a Court of Record, he submitted that no
hypothetical case could come under the cognisance of
that Court. A statement had been made of an uncalled-
for interference with an officer by an Honourable Com-
misssoner. He wished that Hon. Commissioner's name
mentioned. It might, indeed, be inferred that Mr.
Leslie's was meant ; but when a charge of such an im-
portant character was made, it was but right that the
individual intended should be mentioned to the Court.
The CHAIRMAN—Oh, Mr. Leslie is the gentleman I
mean.
Mr. LAURIE objected, on a point of order. He quite
agreed with the Hon. Commissioner who had spoken
last, but he would suggest that a special day be appointed
for the consideration of this subject after the Chairman
should have furnished his statement. He would, there-
fore, propose that the regular business of the Court go
on—(No, no, no)—and then let them, at a future oppor-
tunity, deal with this charge against Mr. Leslie.
The Clumsiest thought that if Hon. Commissioners
were allowed, on other occasions, to go on without inter-
ruption, the same courtesy might be conceded to him.
Mr. LESLIE really would wish that the Chairman
should be heard.
Mr. CANTWELL—If not too much trouble, I would
wish that letter of Mr. Hawkins read again.—(" No, no,
it has been read already.")
The CHAiamAst—Now the question was, had gentle-
men a right to take away the books of certain officers,
and to transfer them to other officers? If that were to
be allowed, where, he asked, would the inconvenience end?
Was it to be supposed that because Job was given over
by the Almighty to be tormented by Satan, that that Court
should give over their officers to be tormented by indi-
vidual Commissioners?—(Laughter, and " Hear, hear.")
The officers felt an irksomeness in the discharge of their
duties ; they looked on every meeting of the Court with
dread, because they then expected to be tortured and
put 'upon the rack ; and, constituted as the Commission
then was, there was no hope of public business progress-
ing, if some means were not adopted to prevent a con-
stant introduction of the subject by the Hon. Commis-
' sioner.
Mr. BARRY BALDWIN, M.P., said, perhaps the chair-
man would allow him to interrupt him for a moment.
He would suggest that it would be fairer to the indivi-
dual charged it a plain statement of facts were made,
without any observations similar to those the chairman
had thought proper to make.—(Loud cries of" hear, hear.")
He was sure the chairman would agree with him that a
plain statement of facts would meet with due considera-
tion from every gentleman present. He did not wish to
defend Mr. Leslie any more than he did the officers of
the court, to whom he wished the best protection of the
Commissioners should be afforded ; but he did think in
making a charge against an honourable member of the
Court, the passions and feelings ought not to be aroused.
—(Hear, hear). It was better that a plain statement
should be put forth, and the matter be left to the consi-
deration of the Court.—(Hear).
case The
in CHAIRMANae :11esmannert wi s he d
before
eto t bringhoi
he fa
a cht
es owf tuhl
de
say, that if the business of the officers were impeded, as
it had lately been, the Court must go on differently from
what it had done.—(Hear, hear, and cheers from both
sides.) He meant as regarded the conduct of one Hon.
Commissioner. The Court had hitherto maintained a
high character—(Hear, hear)—but it would remain to
be seen whether, with a continuance of these proceed-
ings, it would still maintain that high character. In-
stead of having argument after argument upon a matter
settled by a previous Court, yet brought forward by the
lion. Commissioner
Mr. J. GUNTER—We are entering now on another
matter.—(Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN then concluded by leaving the matter
in the hands of the Court.
Mr. LAURIE asked if any communication had passed
upon the subject between the Chairman and Mr. Hertz-
lett previous to the sitting of that Court ?
After some desultory conversation, the Chairman not
having answered the question,
Mr. LESLIE said that the question put by his friend,
Mr. Laurie, was a most proper one ; and, before pro-
ceeding further, he should wish it answered. The letter
of Mrnlawkins he had never heard of till that moment;
but it seemed to contain only two grounds of complaint
—the first, that he had withdrawn the book • and the
second, that the matter might have been brought before
the last Court by him, but that he had neglected to do
so. It might be remembered that he wished to go on, but
the Court was adjourned by some Hon. Commissioner.
He should, however, before going further, wish the
Chairman to answer the question put to him.
The CHAIRMAN admitted that some letters had passed
between himself and Mr. Hertzlett, which he had no
objection should be read to the Court.
The correspondence, consisting of several letters, was
then read.
The CHAIRMAN then referred to the regulation of the
Court, and argued that the book in question ought never
to have beets out of the surveying department. He
granted, indeed, that it might, when the surveyors had
left the premises, be kept by the chief office clerk, Mr.
Hertzlett, who might be held the custodier pro tem.,
hut during the hours of business the case was very
different.
Mr. LESLIE requested that Messrs. Dowley and Haw-
kins, the surveyors, should be called into Court.
They were sent for.
Mr. LESLIE then continued. He had found that they
were to pay a sum of 2,0001., or that they were to pay
large sums of money generally, to the contractors ac-
count for work done. He believed that account very
imperfectly understood. He himself thought that the
terms of the contract were that the contractors should
do a certain quantity of work at 2s. per cubic yard.
He had, however, found that the charges for the Eastern
and Western District had been little short of 10,000 L,
at an average depth of so-and• so, and at per foot lineal.
Then it occurred to him to ascertain how the depths
were taken, because they might be so taken, that on the
one hand they would be very unjust to the contractor,
and on the other to the public. He had examined these
depths, and had gone through the measurement of every
work for the last three years ; and as far as plans and
sections--
Another COMMISSIONER—AII this is quite another
thing. Are you guilty, or not guilty ?
Mr. LAURIE—The gentleman is charged, and surely
he will be heard in his defence. Such a monstrous in-
terruption I never heard before.
The CHAIRMAN thought it too serious a matter to be
trifled with ; and in fairness, Mr. Leslie was entitled to
a reply.
Mr. LESLIE had looked at the book of measurements,
and looked over the day-books, and had found figures
entered of certain depths. He had then said that there
must be some other book, and Mr. Jenkins brought for-
ward a book, called the book of levels, and
he had found the entries all in pencil. Now Mr.
Hertzlett would perhaps have the kindness to put
that book before the Commissioners, and he begged that
it might be sent down the table.--(The book was handed
round.) On searching over the records he had found that
a Committee sitting in 1836 for the purpose of ascertain-
ing the working of the Court, then had it in the chief
officer's evidence that Mr. Jenkins had been in the habit
of receiving the contractors' ledgers to copy his vouchers
from. Yet those clerks of the works were men in whose
integrity for a faithful discharge of their duties the
public and the Court were bound to coincide. Mr. Jen-
kins, the clerk of the works at that time, was in a state of
probation, and it was moved " that Robert Jenkins be

di9missed." He was sorry that only six Commissioners
had voted for his dismissal, and more sorry that a great
majority of the Court thought that such a probation fully
entitled him—was, in fact, worthy of having his name
placed upon that establishment.
The CHAIRMAN said something that was inaudible.
Mr. LESLIE was going on to show that Mr. Jenkins
(lid now what he had done in the days of his probation.
He had said that he had been in the habit of copying the
books of the contractor and the then clerk—(not the
present, for whom he, he believed, in common with all
the members of that Court, had the highest respect)—
Mr. Ilouseman, had, at the desire of the Committee,
written to Messrs. Bird requesting them to send their
ledgers to the Court, in order to ascertain how much had
been written there by Mr. Jenkins, or any other clerk
of works. The answer was, that the Birds threw up
their contract, but no ledger came. He now came to
Bow-street. The Court had ordered 1,400/. to be spent
on that work, and the Court had ordered no more.—
(Hear, hear.) The bill, however, for that 1,4001. came
to 2,0601. Now he wanted to know whether that Court
was determined to hand over to parties the authority
given them by certain statutes and a Commission from
the Crown, to persons who were not mentioned in the
Commission, or responsible to that Court ?
The CHAIRMAN (interrupted)—The question bad re-
ference to a certain book. He wished to hear the Hon.
Commissioner cite his authority for detaining that book.
Mr. LESLIE—The statute said that every Commis
sioner should have the power of seeing that that Com-
mission was properly carried out. Let them bring
the measurement of the work in Howland-street, and
Mr. Jenkins with it, and he would prove his statement.
The CHAIRMAN said the indictment was that he, as a
simple Commissioner, had taken a book and handed it,
over to another officer.
Mr. LESLIE said that he admitted in the fullest and
most perfect manner that he gave to Mr. Hertzlett Mr.
Jenkins's book, it being all in pencil, and he would jus-
tify his so doing. He was only, as he considered, dis-
charging his duty as a Commissioner. He thought the
thing wrong, and he would put it on the broad principle
that he had acted rightly.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HAWKINS then addressed the Court very shortly,
and his manner evinced a strong indisposition to bring
himself into personal collision with any of the Hon.
Members. His statement was, that the book taken pos-
session of by Mr. Leslie was not one of those considered
as official. It contained mere private memoranda, for
the contents could not be supposed public matter until
exhibited before the Court, and was not, that he was
aware, considered official in any of the regulations or
orders. He was not aware, besides, that any of the
orders should be written in ink.

Mr. LESLIE wished to know from Mr. Dowley if these
were public documents ?

Mr:DowLEr. considered they were.
Mr. Jenkins here introduced the section of Howland-
street.

Mr. LESLIE would remind the Court that this was a
question involving an absolute loss of 15,0001. or 20,000/.
The CHAIRMAN—But the question is, has an Hon.
Commissioner the right to withdraw these books?
Mr. B. BALDWIN—Mr. Leslie is going on to prove
that he was justified in the course he adopted.
The CHAIRMAN—But supposing, even for the sake of
argument, that the books were wrong—
Mr. LAURIE—Don't suppose anything wrong. Every-
thing can be proved.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Leslie had,
first of all, established that those books were public docu-
ments.
After some interruption, which only served to distract
the attention of the Court from the main question,
Mr. LESLIE proceeded to question Mr. Jenkins upon
the average depths on the hue of Howland-street. The
work was 842 feet 9 inches in length, at an average of
14 feet 7 inches taken at seven several depths., Three
in the first hundred feet, one in the second hundred, one
in the third hundred, one in the next one hundred and
fifty, and another to the end of the work, Mr. Jenkins
thus missing one three hundred feet before he took a
depth.
Mr. JENKINS answered all questions in the affirmative,
and:said, when the examination was finished, "I won't be
brow-beat, Sir; my books are down in black and white ;
and I defy the man that can say there that black is
white."—(Cries of " Order, order.")
Mr. LESLIE wished to know if the 300 yards was not
the narrowest part ?
Mr. JENKINS—My books are there ; I won't be brow-
beat—(Hear, hear)—here as I have been elsewhere.
Captain BAGUE said he had been asked that question
last Court day, and had not seen proper to give the solu-
tion that he did that day.
Mr. JENKINS—The inquiry had never been made.
Mr. LESLIE was going to put other questions to Mr.
Jenkins, when—
The CHAIRMAN said he would put it to the Hon. Com-
missioner whether he thought a reference to the How-
land-street sewer would justify him in this matter ?
Mr. LESLIE said he did not know how he could possi-
bly go on without first proving in what way the business
of the Court had been done.

The CHAIRMAN—Was the course pursued justifiable?
Mr. BROUGHTON, after remarks upon the inconvenience
that would accrue if all members of the Court were
to possess themselves of books as Mr. Leslie had done,
suggested that the Commission should appoint a special
Committee to take the thing into consideration.
Mr. BARRY BALDwIN thought that extreme cases re •
quired extreme remedies. He, with the Hon. Member
(Mr. Leslie), suspected that pencilled books were not
exactly proper, and he was of opinion that the Hon.
Commissioner did only %hat any Commissioner of just
principles would do—he had deposited the book with
the chief clerk in the office. He did not hinder any-

body from consulting it; the only exaction he made was
that the book should not be altered or erased
He (Mr. B. Baldwin) would have done the very same.
There could be no doubt entertained that the Hon. Com-
missioner intended it all to come before the Court at a
future time, and if he were the llon. Commissioner he
would take it on the broad ground that he had a right
to take possession of the book, and that suspecting that
the book had not been kept in a proper way according to
the rules of the Court, he had accordingly deposited it
with the proper officer.
The CHAIRMAN apprehended Mr. Leslie had not de-
posited it with the proper officer.
Mr. BALDWIN contended that the book had been de-

posited by Mr. Leslie with the proper officer of the
Court, and that it had not, in the terms of the motion
before the Court, been withdrawn.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LESLIE—Why, Mr. Hawkins afterwards got the
book and deposited it with Mr. Hertzlett. That notice
on the paper was merely an avant courier sent out by the
Chairman, to ascertain the strength of the Court. The
speaker, after some further observations, all having re-
ference to the question, during which he was frequently
interrupted by other Hon. Commissioners, concluded by
stating that he had only done, as he hoped he had always
done, his duty, and he left the matter now in their
hands.
After some other observations, a resolution was moved
by an Hon. Commissioner, seconded by Mr. Hawkins,
" That no Hon. Commissioner have power to with-
draw books, or otherwise interrupt the officers of the
Court in the discharge of their duties.'
Mr. BALDWIN wished the Court should not be misled
as to the charge thar Mr. Leslie had withdrawn the
book. That gentleman had not done so, and he wished
the Court to be set right upon this point before they
came to a decision. He did not withdraw it either from
the officer or the Commissioners ; but he placed it, in
his (Mr. Baldwin's) opinion, in the custody of the person
who ought to have charge of it. The rule, No. 29, stated,
"That the clerk do reside on the premises and have
charge thereof and of the public documents." It was
true that at page 23 there was mention made of the
" books in use in the surveyors' department," but nothing
was said of that department having charge of the books
at all.—(Hear.) As he read it the clerk had had charge
of the books. Now it was with the clerk that the book
in question had been deposited, with authority to allow
any person to inspect it, but not to permit any altera-
tions or erasures to be made in it. He th2ught the course
taken by Mr. Leslie was a wise one, atli should, there-
fore, vote against the resolution.
Mr. WILLOUGHBY contended that the Commissioners
had no right to take possession of any book.
Mr. LAURIE denied that Mr. Leslie bad in any way
impeded the officers in the discharge of their duty. There
was not a tittle of evidence to warrant such a charge.
He hoped the matter might be allowed to drop here.
The Court was on its last legs.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought its doom was sealed, and he rejoiced at it, for he
deemed it necessary for the rate-payers that the Govern-
ment should assume the powers exercised by the Com-
missioners.
Mr. FULLER said the evident object was not to further
any public good, but to put down Mr. Leslie. He was
obliged to the Hon. Commissioner, for if he could not
agree in all the particulars, he was satisfied that ho was
right in the general principle.
After some further discussion, the question was put
'rom the Chair, when there appeared for the resolution,
6 ; against it, 9—majority, 7.
The Court then adjourned.

EXPERIMENTS IN THE MARSHES
AT WOOLWICH.
Lieut.-Colonel Dansey, C. 8., Lieut.-Colonel Wylde,
C. 8., Lieutenant Colonel Chalmer, Assistant-Director-
General of Artillery, Lieut.-Colonel Durnford, Major
Hardinge, K.H., Major Macbean, Captain Dupuis, Capt.
and Adjutant Mitchell, Captain and Adjutant Tireman,
of the Royal Artillery, and Captain Coffin, Royal Navy,
assembled in the Marshes on Thursday afternoon, to
witness experiments with concussion shells, fitted with
fuzees, on Wilton's principle, adopted by Lieut.-Colonel
Dansey, to be fired at greater distances than point blank
range, and with an extra charge of powder, without ex-
ploding until the lapse of ten seconds, or burning the
full length of the fuzee after their discharge from the
guns, except when they hit a very hard object, such as
the side of a vessel, when it is expected they will at that
moment of time burst by the force of the concussion.
In consequence of the crowded state of the river with
vessels passing the practice range, it was found impossible
to fire more than three rounds—two from 32-pounder
guns, and one from a6B -pounder gun ; but they afforded
evidence that it is possible to make Wilton's fuzees to
carry a range of 600 yards, and project the shells to which
they are fitted with extra charges of powder without
the shells bursting before the time calculated upon, a
very important point, as when they burst at the mouth of
the gun, or before they reach the object against which
they are directed, they are as liable to destroy friends as
foes. The usual .charge for firing shells from guns of
the same length and calibre as those used during the ex-
periments is slbs. of powder for 32-pounders, but on
this occasion 81bs. were used ; and the usual charge of
a 68-pounder for shells is 61bs., but on this occasion
101bs were used, and the result proved that"the fuzees
were perfectly safe and capable of resisting not only the
extra force of the charge, but when the shells entered
the mound, which they all did without striking the bulk-
head, the yielding nature of the earth prevented their
explosion until the extreme length of the fuzee had

burned out, ,when they burst with tremend9us effect. It
was intended, hni the river been clear of yessels, to
have made further experiments with ilfr. Marsh's fuzees
with similar extra charges of powder, at the 600 .Yar'3s
distance selected for the experiments, and with o'ilet
fuzees, the invention of Lieutenant Colonel Danst-yf
fuzees on a plan submitted by Mr. Tyers, of the pYw.y.:
department in the Royal Arsenal, but they have beeo
postponed to a future period. Captain Ifennis, with
Lieutenants Lennox, Henry and C. J. Strange, had the
charge of the party, consisting of three non-commis-
sioned officers, and thirty gunners and drivers for the
grans, and one non-commissioned officer and six gunners
and drivers, and three buglers for the range.