The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

EMIGRATION MEDICAL OFFICERS.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL, in moving that there
be laid bt fire the Rouse copies of the testimonials, with
the names of the parties subsctibed to them, produced
by Thoeas Hammond, upon the faith of which he was
last summer appointed surgeon to the emigrant ship
Una, together with the minutes made by the Colonial
Land and Emigration Commissioners on those testimo-
nials, called the attention of the Houie to the result of
the inquiries which he had made into the circumstances,
which had led to the appointment of this individual to
the medical charge of the Una, and into his previous
course of life. In his opinion he did not think him a
person at all qualified and fitted for the discharge of so
important a trust, though he did not mean to say that
that was a matter upon which he intended to found any
charge against the Colonial-office. This gentleman for-
merly lived at Eton, and from following an irregular
course of life became at length deranged, and was for
some time confined in a lunatic asylum, at or near
Norwich. How he got out of it he did not know,
but he did get out, and was appointed medical
surgeon on board this emigrant vessel, which
ailed for Sydney from one of our ports in the middle
ut July last. There were 313 souls on board this
vessel, and he would admit that in the course of his in-
quiries he received testimonials of the highest character
relating to this person, and he admitted it freely, he-
caue his object really was to point the matter out to the
Noble Earl opposite at the head of the Colonial depart-
ment as a caution for the future. Having referred to
several matters which took place iu the course of the
voyage, which were very much to be reprobated, he
concluded by mentioning a number of instances of inca-
pacity on the part of emigrant medical officers, the sum-
mary of which was that ten out of twenty of them had
been declared incompetent by the colonial authorities
upon their arrival in the colonies.

Earl GREY said that as to the general statement of
the Noble Earl, of general misconduct on the part of
colonial medical officers, he could safely refer the house
to the papers before them for information on the subject.
That information would show them, that although In so
large a service, 32,000 emigrants having gone out last
year, some cases of misconduct might Nell be expe3ted
to occur, yet, taking the system as a whole, it was
successfully and well conducted. With regard to
the charge of general inefficiency which the Noble
Earl had made against these officers, he would state
a fact derived by calculation from the papers
before the House, and that was, that notwithstanding
the drawbacks usually incidental to a long sea voyage,
the mortality on board emigrant vessels was less than
the average mortality occurring among the same class
of persons, and of the same age, living in this country.
Without going thrcugh all the cases mentioned by the
Noble Earl, he need only say that it was impossible for
the Emigration Commissioners to know exactly what
kind of man they were employing, until they had actu-
ally tried him. The emigration which it was most de-
sirable to carry out was the emigration of large families,
and that was the only one which, to a great extent, could
go on with success. Under other circumstances it was
always more difficult to provide against such occurrences
as the Noble Earl had adverted to. He held in his
band the testimonials which had been presented by
Mr. Hammond on his appointment, which were of
such a description that he could not Leliove that the
information which the Noble Earl had received
was correct, and that it must le fer to some
other person. When he applied in June last he wai
seen by the official erson whose duty it was to inves-
tigate the qualifications of the applicants, and was
told that his certificates were of too remote a date to be
perfectly satisfactory, and others of a more recent date
were required; and accordingly, on the 2d of July, he
produced others, as well as the necessary diplomas from
Apothecaries' Hall and the College of Surgeons, where
he had teen admitted a member on the 23d cf July,
1820. The certificates of competency and character
which he produced were from Mr. Guthrie, of Berkeley -
street, in which he was described as tato of Windsor.
Another was from Mr. Andrews, another from Doctor
Merryman, who testified to his moral character; also a
testimonial from Mr. John Rowley, assistant-surgeon of
the Scots Fusilier Guards, and finally, a certificate
from Dr. Cox, who described him as a married man and
the father of a family, and a person in whom every
confidence might be placed. It was impossible that any
gentleman could have higher testimonials. At the
same time, he agreed with the Noble Earl those who
signed such testimonials did so under great respon-
sibility, and in that view he would not object to the
production of these testimonals, that those who signed
might be made responsible. When the ship's arrival
would be reported, a report of the conduct of the sur-
geon would be transmitted to this country from the co-
lonial authorities, when further information would he
afforded with regard to these transactions.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL said he did not be-
lieve he was at all mistaken in the information he had
received; and the fact that he was described in the t-35-
timonial of Mr. Guthrie as late of Windsor went to con-
firm it, where he had resided thirty years, and where
his character must have been well known, He could re-
fer in corroboration of what he had stated to the Rev
Stirling Marshal of Eton College.

The motion was then agreed to.
Earl NELSON then brought in a Bill to regulate
the appointment of chaplains at the Foreign Consulates.
He said it was the same as that which had been intro-
duced last session. He should move that it now be rearl
a first time, and ordered to be printed—Agreed to.
Their Lordships adjourned at a Quarter-past Seven
o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 26.
SECULAR EDUCATION.
Mr. W. J. FOX said that in rising to move for leave
to bring in a Bill to promote secular education in Eng-
land and Wales, he was deeply sensible of the difficul-
ties of the question. There were those who thought that
it was not the duty of Government to educate the
people, and there were those who thought such a duty
peculiarly belonged to them. Between these extremes
there was a large number of persons who held that
though Government should educate the people, it might
yet see that the people educated themselves. It was
upon this view that he had constructed the measure
which he hoped to be allowed to submit ti the House.
He thought the difficulties on the subject of educating
the people arose now not from indifference, as formerly,
but from the machinery to be employed. The efforts
made for the promotion of education were honourable to
all. Of late ye ars the Church hal made magnificent
efforte, and co also had the Dissenters t) spread educa-
tion among the poorer classes. He believed also that the
Committee cf Privy Council had sincerely eedeavoured
to combine the agencies they found existing, and to pro-
mote the education of the people. And yet this result
was that these great bodies were in collision one with
another; that the minutes of Council were received
almost always with :aegry discussion; that large num-
bers ,1
of the National Society repudiated the grants, arid
that large numbers of Dissenters connected with the
British and Foreign School Society also repudiated the
grants, The Committee of the Privy Council had tried
to bring into harmony the jarring elemet.ts, but in vain,
and the result was that the progress of education had
been stayed, and in some respects the movement had
been retrograde. Such a state of things was earnestly
to be deplored. A few years ago the Congregational
Dissenters had declared their intention of raising

------____---- ---.- _
nit
‘2"'"(1. f.'" ed• rational purposes, but had faded.
o
le. se t'ian 8,000/. having found its way into the h _
ot:
of their coeimitte e. In consequence of
announced that their grants to their Brasil rTdinari
li'aort e'
schools were suspended. From a report ef the Ile $
Society. it apseared they found the annual 5uy,,,..0,
some of their schools a matter of greater tlift: ;.f*
then the building of them. In one of the rePeltated
the inspector of the southern district, it wases.dassl,
that not only was the building of schools wr
.I_t it
but that the attendance of scholars was such tn7te.
this they
Do:
could not Le contemplated without regt. Are but
modation was provided for 130,000 scholars,issued
not more than 14,000 attended. From a Pere:
nveared
by the National Society this year. it apes-
that their finances were so inadequate that they ."tric.
petaled the building of schools, and had placed r„,
tions on St. Mark's, Chelsea, and Battersea TrarißeLl:
schools. There were other grounds than these fo,:.!c",
ing the attention of the House to the question. °" ,
isthe last discussion on the subject, three Years -aotis
large body of evidence had been collected from viols.
sources as to the quality of the education in tiniesene_,tshietyr
try, and showing that there existed a strong
for a careful consideration of the question. venous
reason was the movements that had arisen in The
parts of the country on the subject of educato.or
f tld;
people of Lancashire had formed an association
listo,
education of the population of that county. et,rr her
which had ale ays maintained a proud position
claim 0(
educational system, now came forward wit that OW'
more extensive secular education, in order fe the
ous education might not 'fail of its efficiency. ' we-
me tropolis the working people had taken a 'lecke by
rest in the question, and had manifested this 101 st
sabote(l of
establishing a number of self-supporting
which hundreds of their children were eduen girls'
the rate of 6d. per week for boys, and 4d. frt.,: etb
There were still stronger reasons for making some
tots
vance in this matter. No person could consider te sous
of ec:ucation in this and in foreign countries rrbigb
feeling that this nation was not supporting bees ob.
character and ancient prerogative. From regrropor
tamedion by the Government, it appeared that the reaper
t" to the population of persons educated was lipsr aailid
I in 6, in Bavaria 1 in 7 at day schools, and iive of
Sundayn schools 1 in 4, in Holland 1 in 8 elelisses'
etibose privately educatel, in Belgium 1 in 9sinasst esti"
usetts 1 in 6i, while in this country the of only
Bi, including all kinds f schools
mate, that of Mr. Baine, gave the proportion of oe'e of
1 in 13 would be nearer the ma;ka.lteugh be believed
be smallness of the proportion, but the irNreogtsll°onrilVelloii is
o
lamented. It was not the same in two ooool".fc'ossses
differentof the
parishes in the same town, or in differ iii, is
the working people. In Liverpool it weexl iiS I MO'.
Salford 1 in 36, in Chester 1 in 2, in She's,- dent
in Manchester 1 in 14. In Middlesex, Silent; sislehile ."-
Bberland, the proportion was above the esverabs, .t. virar•
edf ird and sever al other counties it was bac)°, i,l cordiOir
wick and Chester were above the average. `.-- aester
(2111pPeCr Ce:lt.
to recent returns from 407 cotton mills 10
and the surrounding districts, no less than ---:s aapsre,‘
of the factory operatives could read. Tb,'sgsal obi:
extended to the sexes. In the National ,--,,,re: er'.
London and its neighbourhood three her wa-forelsagli
rated to two girls; while in the British ell'edecs,'-o
tSochtonolos tbfoyths.e mAebtrootbpeorlis
gornolnyndonfenrgiirniqVy Asia J 5
to the
gtehffibantcri
thosereinecrys against
who
iohneswteederruefcma
disposedti
ni education . given,
knew
win criminality.—(Neer' e 9 , oiefi ,
of the argument he meant to use ontto(hEalilsakaPeresiol3.ltecigibirt:4l6;
)erla
.iedp,t
ttuaplucerersaui
irfsitar,iconecnmeta
fsimll:lBnea3polts7rwaeebtvia(l
preventing
nit:at:Bl
ieci4nno3gii
18.13, and
foundt
caaergrnieadmdirnseetisshtnaldts educationwbba idn
ne
0!,
lithe
poe
_tree,:
et
iti.; be
~$::::
oats,
eotruoiHlihdareeei aisaidallB9Blhi -5 °B9ilollWilci•d:tov
vi,h.eabt:s-
idWeri- Pirtiriblin'lo:‘'f:
able to read or write; 2. Those able to read and
W.! n.
imperfectly; 3. Those able to read and vgg stanched
and, 4. Those whose education had been of ,5 Crime
• During those years the gross amount eitie; of,,,cf:;
undergone great fluctuation; but the proPrisitit ail-
:rini,eeei;Or.aceleaei:Cet:d:tg:(l,ti ft,i),
off de
pi:iesinr
iaboveenesnistaugstehmobowlte.e d no such diver-rae P
wed a superior education had also decrestae;eloo----f
per-centage of criminals of the interrnedinge; ta%s
those who could read and write well—in other ' °of Iles
those who had received the usual instructioni afoil's
poorer classes, had increased.—(clear, hear.) 'l,l6loiiir
appear from the reports of Mr. Fletcher the sterier'
For la 043,
results had taken place in other res cts
in the whole number of commitments 'for 18'1' ehtinet
and 1844, the decrease had been 13 per eelTe'eorn"-
the decrease in the number of the ash°lllatherhe.
f criminals had been 15 6.10 per cent. Thor: ..th-- 50 ''.v- °
ore been an advance of the criminality 0' those
":
enjoyed the instruction of schools under the Pool oh-1
tem. Although he felt that religious ifiegit ed kills
most important to children, yet be was conv;s,,c seen'el
that instruction would only produce its genre-00.g;
when given with a due admixture of secular anstoebt
—(Hear.) It was to the want of that sectrier;osilief,'
that he ascribed the failure of the efforts BO 44"- f efg
made to benefit the rising generation by mewed °°t o°o7
cation. Without this teaching the child learne"...,(110"
but words el* which he did not feel the meaning; did
aid 11;s°1
hear.) The child might repeat them, but the., 010 'i"'
sink into his mind, and an atmosphere Of .sereetlectrlp:
etructien was necessary, as a stimulus to %1 re'll In
faculties.—ilea Ile would refer to the grbY cbko;
testti,:iozr.,d ,
Lord's
h eg:hrraei generally ye apcl,lPrlitilyed;-;00103:ivi
11,bilroosto:
couldit.aei s:p• Be4ctBots,
repeataaes di; det:la:jinn:lLitre state in which the com: teet
parents had taught them were notegre.nerallY tlGaildrast
found in gaols—(Hear.) It was the 'abarieene-r cad :
of reprobate parents who were unable Lo
s.-8111 n-5;1
symbol of devotion so dear to all Chris(inng opt' '',a
surm o, therefore, though there might be the ',fade
cases, that if a child was found able to rePeß",- r 0; "be
Pra3er, that child must have been at one or sribsevieels'ib
schools tor educating the poor. Bearing thes,- seawis
would apply the test. Out of 631 prisoners 'raw iP1.,„,1
gaol there were only 204 who could not TePeait ". n° Here
Prayer, leaving 427 who had received 004'10 Ig.„-ii
education. 01 229 in Cambridge prison enn.',,,sll °lO
funable to repeat the prayer. In that of Cclri 614.01 of
39 out of 684. In Dorset gaol only 57 o°V,(i glihy
Lancaster Sussex
prison 115 out of 603; and i° that areal
sinus
Sundau • as
uses.
erset oxfryetaea(
facts
ol
education
out
orm
,irtioooemovmfoaao
i dtugshea2oe valuable
prisoners,u.leersp
ncioHhtonorewsol3,laoismight
ehaitsesstfiolai r
aesi
vlr
tabl
necessary
stri,
iihsertsso!cianet:
eir:
vtrei that
ecoi
to:ot.
cmonmdbeinnepdonwfibthe knowledge,thseicnudlsarofalmost
un wsiewe
bad e.ttoenn,ie atr,
the subject. The chaplain of Pentonville Prieeedeo„o.
lastvlo report, stated that the proportion of ednr-sbo 1:'00,
ts to the uneducated was fully as high opals p.alhl-eff,,
portion_ between those classes in the genera;,:t% t- tt
0
The same, in a report before the House, eve ee sor- fear
500 prisoners he found 178 had attended some ae
a school upwards of four years, and 193 lesigss 0 'l°a' ti
years. Similar teitimony was borne by ~,,13`",,°er secs?
tors. In the fourteen th report on the "r-11-eaeal'ila
gaol, it was stated that of 120 prisoners -43 fete'
21 could not repeat the Lord's PreYr'she ei:eill
,repeat it, 51 could repeat parts e,I. iia Otte'
c um, 5 the whole, giving 99 110011,130r',./eeatls 11l
and 21 altogether untrained. In the 1e,,.",15e0
port on Bodmin gaol, it was stated thatiaeariayeatti-0
out of 684 could not repeat the Lorsl'4p ,f °'l, il
could repeat it and had a general knole",4 684 "ease
parts of Scripture, showing that 545 out -0 to "ease
gone through training. schools. In an 913 Pf tnbei3riti at
of the reports, Mr. Fletcher, an inspector 0, ,„eatiell,Clo
and Foreign Schools, stated that the school (le" dig
slept
the poor was still in infancy, and that in rel ailesedoo.
iwt was little more than nominal. The BeV.,if Otteirl,4'o°
whose reports merited a great degreethee eyeelev-dige
stated that his experience led him tgres kneel:ere°
in
nhat there was a greater amount of religious seriP;loo
those schools where the reading of tbea3strnr.,-so'
wasA blended with a just proportion of secular 'to me•io.
uniother inspector, the Rev. T. Cooke, efsbgisseggLecY
p Ilan district, stated in his report that o'„ e/n-afr:
struction was advanced in proportion ton,tl; jae,
.I'ooo
of the children in other studies. ":,•strier, or *
Blandford, an inspector for the eastern °I , ible ( je'
his opinion to the effect that it was ini6 odors 0 o 0
teacher, however intelligent, to raise the egn; beehiliaten,
structien without an adequate supPli:7B6 o'-aireal
secular subjects, and that out of '' with LSO'
examined, 2,891 read the Scripttlfe! fofor°;tioll
ease, on account of their genera' 0 PI 00
effortslfhe Coofmrme religious
ofsocthieetiePsrtihveyreCivosusncaii.iae, rbrensgaappl
of Bibles and other religious books in tbe,. vlO If 3 PI
oboe,. those
intelligent
tcalth:oloblilegsen visited by their ins ectors, tbejO beres.reatil!
enat American troaivellerP
other . . dole d seo. do
, e ,
of careful observation, that in BEF,7 ligloi-th reniti„
the pupils in those schools in Yrble'terwite ni-e rat'
traveller in America, were. taught, were much less acquei,l3-es the °I-1g li°ll
portions of the
in the United State. The •- an Llg"- tate' 1- and
Then, again, „ bad 5 ore ~,00
spa than
s,.ct
.h elLapeyi cilileeP,3l3l:‘
_t: e[itt eicilrlliiiggns: n_tt P;:lc:::ise:11::
been carried farthest,
recent work that the clergy were Den of the 7, gef%
more convinced that where the eduslatiwe'r-e most leolol'.-
had the people. ' esnost ze;111, rail
in their attendance at Divine worshiPta-rostke, ens
defence of their theological opinions, of
• toter vee
f their P •vfer, s
contributing funds for the support 0 Foss) ligiOtil
for the building of churches. His (gr. , seat I.' tot 1.
from those different testimonies was, o°'' cf but a ten
se eer,
education should be checked or restriete ' whiee ied
would well become them to take the best F3'_coonir Oa
could that that education should always 0040 sereo:oad
themsuch training as would give it its the be°, ae%g
nd, and elicit its hest are ia,ie 0010 001
characters of children.—(Hear, hear.) of of 'llcofthe
endeavour briefly to explain
which he should move for leave to lay on Teet to 9";111
House, and in which he had ,endeavoureo aat fo silty
, l'''' d OP
sede any existing education of children
....00
.0 of
the Pro" ~,, tahle "oner
the deficiencies of that education. He Prdrevoslon It ine:i
deficiencies in the means of oldsupPlYine be aseer tO e ;
parish or combination of parishee, We deavouril leg'
timate those deficiencies he veould havt.lferv,...et
_oti 0
by her Majesty's inspectors;
account every item of educational ma
n'lln,fiooltet!'ciocy
florid schools, the British and Foreig d
of the --elsieeri
public or private schools. The areou.natv,g, beet:l,ooe.
in the means of affording educatiort h
so'n:fa be „Jot. hs'
tamed, he proposed that the locality l'd a„ Jot.
'to supply it, and that the inhabitants.l.,_sai ecnaolo'
and in e e
..
..ca to
he°
foli
purpose be summoned to elect an educ.
sled to
rate 7 or'
which committee would be eroPow',' jean-reale`,
habitants for the expenses necessarily
_. thcy scet4,lo
rying out their views. He propos foreseentnr Pbiali
Meti l°'ri"
at the same time, have a continued regard
already in existence. There were taro _9l, or als„ 05
they could meet the wants of their Pe"ecfnealle"of a
the first was, assuming that secula,vastion_ i,tio%
their peculiar province, the pre3Loyeay execaorn
remuneration to the teacher in the insP
school for so many pupils as

sense
feel teat he htel sfre.'sestle ieeroceel ie •h:-,itenes
1.113 l stheol
stioe; steel sees-er f":"'
ieesv_r6ehosilso and these he (`,;c. F.,x) prooese ! should
and
so whise ,any inhahit.v.t i,f
parish or district would have the ••I • his chil-
uree rig it to
ant.: ten the ages if sit eo and t ten, without
witl6±, without any distioethee of te,sstreeet or training,
Per.e!l:: the rig Lt
n° religious necaliaeities •ule•te het leaving to
the4inalienabAce -right'—‘to have their
instructscl at fixed psriods, in whatever religion
ueY taigLt think proper.—(Hear.) Ho proposed that.
hclltleaa'llig the school, each child who had conducted
seatself to his master's satisfastion should have a pre-
jf books made to him, and that the Holy Scriptures
„ always form a portion of those book:,. Ho pro-
itposed that the ti water should he rued., as independent as
s'i.hlt,; that he should be appointed, and that he should
itilsinis.,;ible, by the Decal education committee, but
thu
in case of disrnie,el, lie shettld have a right of ap-
7s_ , the E lucation Committee of the Privy Council;
1.0 if instances should occur in which a district would he
t`ile4reless or so Leglectful of its duty as n..t to under-
.? to provide for tfo, deficiency in the supply of educe.-
h_
w• ould give the ( !,im to i of the I.lrlvy Council
be e to step in and rem ...sly tho t, vie To masters
Woald vive rt asoi.Aatilo h., W all fix the
Cure
those salsri ‘s a an seamiest which would
Cure to Ilium u respee.ahle seeiai position. He be-
tiaoed that to be a mstt-r Of the titr o,t passible conse-
seeen'!er He relied on the schooimast Ts for the ad•
thro insnt of education. He believed that it was only
,42igh their instrumentality that the House could en-
thee letssr and brighter
eeat• among the children of
Pe°Ple than those which they at eresent witnessed.
esatilrusted there was nothing in that scheme which
tine undoubtedly
he offensive to those various religious bodies which
tine undoubtedly done so much fur the cause of eduea-
Whichwouui Ile proposed no restraint upon them. His plan
cl Put an end. to that interereece which the trustees
had occasioned so much vexation. If members of
nne_istablished Church were to erect a school placed
With
the direction of a clergyman of the parish, and
Fear the bishop as a visitor, but which sent out from
their to year a certain number of pupils qualified to take
e Pisces as members cf a civilized state, his scheme
ht)°tlld reward them for the work they had done. He
seated that Dissenters a!so would find the measure un-
res"t`reatilonahle. Their schools, also, would be free from
to th 411. In fast, he was inclined to adopt, in reference,
Sego 4t subject, a distinction which had onee been
lie by the lion. Member for Surrey
strese ". Drummond) between education and in-
.of ,-"I°o• By education he understood a complete,
ber-thati°o—a drawing out cf the mind, which could only
tisCe work cf a high!) -gif test teacher, or ef an affee-
. 14te Parent or master. By instruction, on the other
the t' he understood the communication or knowledge—
stel tr.airling of the faculties. That was a lower task ;
the Was unfortunately the only one which it was in
ltsenPower of legislation to accomplish through the
ele-,heYnr schoolmasters. There was another class to
it %,,; e° could not help looking, and whose co-operation
gseel Of the utmost importance thet they should en-
eh •4 that matter—he meant the working people,
Opel children were to be trained ; for wi:hout that co-
hoZti°n no efforts of the Legislature, or of any other
selt;',.ll,l'°h that subject could lead to the beneficial re-
The ic,ulch it was so desirable that they should produce.
Ilnde ""lignice of that class was, he feared, very much
Pere 'rated by those who had not had opportunities of
4°141 communication with them.—(Hear, hear.)
-40 e,„ ,
thorst6 toe' class there was a sturdy intelligence and a
tee; sense which recoiled from charily— which
l'et:-Ittad sometimes not unwarranted, sometimes
had eolniwarrantable suspicions of their superiors,
beep lob indisposed them to read books which had
purp°swritten by their betters in society for the
ti~nlas they believed, of producing a par-
the,er action on their minds. Now, he thought that
rsturdiness of intellect, which was the unavoidable
ee:ll3, Psuitnent of self-culture, without the possession of
Thos EX terwA advantages, was entitled to respect.
tehe',e,,People were indisposed to send their children to
keti' which they looked upon us charitable establish-
tB, or which they thought were founded for the
telir):3se of prose]) rising their children to some particular
LOO us denomination. A society of working men in
lets °°o had put forth a manifesto which contained a
essays upon that subject, which wile, he thought, well
ember of the attention of the House. (The Hon.
pregfeer here read the passage, in which the writers ex-
ll:sed their determination not to allow their children
404 aPPortioned among religious sects, and strongly de-
ter.l'eQd those dissensions amongst the members of dif-
efrht religious denominations which had deprived them
Ricans of saving their childri n from ignorance.
fromtheta its accompanying degradation.) He believed
thecins° were the opinions Of the real working men,
at incalculable advantage would be derived from
thidng the co-operation of teat class in a more ex-
its ed Reveal of education. It was expected, per-
* •
of Hs' that he should say something of the cost
it;"°, Plan which he proposed. Now it would be
atmlitriectation upon his part to produce figures upon
pteg~ But he would remark that the first im-
ele,-:°4 Oil the mind was very likely to lead to a highly
tewrated estimate of the outlay which the plan would
Lltt'gre• The arsociatien for education in the county of
e„seaster ha I made their calculations with great care,
th
the. °Y had found that they could supply schools
the-btire education of the country by a rate of 40. in
laleound. They had further found that they could es-
sait'h a series of schools for the education of adults as
"fchildren by a rat, of 6d. in the pound. That
%he_
/ih;l4l°. however, was fir a complete provision of schools,
"e his (Mr. Fox's) plan was merely proposed to sup-
IhiYer existing deficiency.- There again, he would re-
te the House that atter education should have been
ered more general and effective, they might reason-
% Yealeuiath on a great diminution of the expense of
tfil"ttrg pauperism. of punishing criminals, as well as
kbetrhe losses of property by theft—and further, the
th et ratepayer; would receive in the education cf their
tgildren
compensation for their contributions to the
asltie.Toance of such a system am that which he pro-
oe,"'s • As he had said before. he should rely mainly
40;ue teachers for the success of any scheme of that de-
-I:Pti°,l; and in that reliance he felt watranted by the
et.l,,,sound observation cf the Noble Lord a', the head of
el; Government, made in that House three years ago,
Nep tha, same topic of education had been under dis-
t4ir°F• The Noble Lord said upon teat occasion—
°ffe always been my opinion that you could never
Stti.e"tlhily raise education in this country until you
oats the condition and the prospects of the school-
leTeters." Now that was the object he (Mr. Fox) had
to school-
ti in recommending the salaries which he proposed
14:11tt measure. If any person doubted the impertance
Need
tiftti masters in schools, he would direct the attention
The t
•t,' Person to the stat of education in the Isle of Man.
to s,"le of Man was perhaps the most perfect specimen
eat Z° world of a community universally and highly edu-
V1,,,a, far as regarded the use of ink and paper. Every
thtttn there had its school; and the inhabitants were in
was of society in which the power of public opinion
41%
asltlght to bear upon individuals. Parents in the
au were even subject to a penalty if they did not
he ,toeir children to school—a thing which would not
liaal°lerated in this country—and yet the children
t 041,1 were in the most deplorable condition which
to CI, well be conceived. The Bishop, in writing
ktl ,"e Committee of the Privy Council, said that
toaatae some plan for raising the condition of the school-
gleeclrs were adopted, the education granted in the
ket7,,Would be useless, and the children there would be
kreZt'PPed in useful knowledge by those of every other
or the country. It was not on the pupils
rely ; training colleges that he (Mr. Fox) would merely
the ar carrying out that measure. The profession. of
irolmaster had sank in this country because it hadn
ardor the encouragement which was requiredani _
Ittate,"° enable people to devote themselves heart d
itesh7 that occupation. He believed that persons well
the fer that work existed in considerable numbers
._ll44lt.Ariout the country; and he thought of the school-
'', 0134,-r us of the pot t—naseiter non fit. There was a
—,„teett tendency in some minds which enabled them
ttee't°Pethise with children and to accelerate their pro-
tab% for the want of which no amount of learning could
thte,_ Pee ens (Hear, bear.) He would throw open the
kNiiNtion for masters; he would make aptitude for
wootitig the great test in that competition; and then he
ae hluly reward good teachers. Their function was
r'bv wd"Le,ll ht well be deemed sacred, and they de-
esee -
\tue bestg honours which society could bestow.—
altllittettti?s, 1:10 trusted that the House would judge that
by its own importance and interest, and not by the
and
tlll4q. imperfect manner in which he had brought it
Bona
ea notice. He merely wished at that moment
;(11 "`a should be laid upon the table of the
attl tle that it should be printed; and that the House
ittetet.eountry should take the measure into their con-
titie n• He prayed the House to think of the con-
°r thousands on thousands of children in this
''l,l%,;'hY,---to think of the crime which had thriven in a
"IYea-leh he hoped to see bring forth better fruits. He
seN%etc them to think of those localities which were
itille4llY sending forth hordes of untutored savages in
Atti" Who seemed to derive from civilization only
14104:orecilitieeesmfor becoming. themselves_ a more un-
ale .tne annoyance to society. He would have them
',our over-crowded gaols and hulks, and of our
--"n‘ colonies; he would have them think of the
e-411414141et, order, and security which might be spread
esA)ral tre4.t4ollg the homes of the well-disposed by the ge-
e?ttld h.l'lltog and the moral conduct.of the people ; he
f
Kit • "ve them look to higher motives—to motives o
4!111:1› character—and to consider that the intellec-
-144b 'acral lustre of our country had ever been a
‘troie %Peri
, h or even to that of its supremacy in arts and
Cieese Lwould have them look to those still higher
hove h e-huieh, when the purposes of civil society should
%Woe ite-e‘ accomplished, would yet remain to be realised
eges°ll-11itviclual, who by the means which they could
'Poses f would be better qualihei to ful.fil thefigood
aeNttor °r which he had beeu formed by his bene cent
eiltis*--(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded
forr,sellewed cheers by moving for leave to bring in a ,
ttlet,r°raoting the secular education of the people in
4144„1.1* doting
ma Ey was anxious to render his testimony to
441 and ability with which the Hon. Gentle-
ti„°Ose. ~,,orought that subject under the notice of the
iltg(leratt,t'ip e believed that the Hon. Member had rather
s:sens .-(1 than overstated the deficiencies in our
,iej,lnatee-Yesteto of education. The plans which had
se- hat hitherto
both the extreme parties upon that sub-
atiattld failed; and he did not see why they
'4!'s foec;th at length leave it to parishes to tax them-
bpt p.re Promotion of that object.
th L'GLIS and L d J RUSSELL rase together;
40411 telaNt°, ble Lord havingorgiven way, the Hon. Baronet
..ghee alter the speech of the Hon. Member for
iiekeotvilitbe
temper and ability of which he readily
v,41. the og.ed—he bad waited in respectful silence to
moment Pinion of some Member of her Majesty's Go-
tterd 411°" the proposed measure.
Preeeed`,,u.,SELL again rose, amid some laughter,
that, °t' to
_7, with the p!rtuission of the Hon.
uY OjtOrd
43 his
..}lncire,;s the House. The Nohle Lord said
B_Friend the Member for the University
eemed tO have expected that some Member

THE

et' her Mejesty's Goverment eliceild ti:?" and state
whet. vh,w he tn,ok of the motion of tie i ion. Alt inb~.
for (►lcihent, he Mil not liesitste to sae :line, he hoped
the lieu,e won ti nut refuse perm -e'er' th,,
Honourable Gentleman to bring in his Thil.—(Hear.)
He thought that no one could doubt, in the
first place, the importance of the subject, :led, in the
next place, no one could say that education was in such
a state in England that no further measures tvere re-
quired upon the subject; that there was not much to be
lamented in the present deficiency of the means of edue
cation; that there was not much which good men de-
plored, even in the education which was given; and
that there was not yet more to be deplored in the ab-
sence of education among the great mass of our people,
whose instruction, and still more, whose training in re-
ligion and morality, deeply concerned the welfare of the
whole community. It that were the , the only other
question that reinained was, whetlitr the lion. Member
for Olihqin had approached tha; subject in a fi,tieg
spirit—(Hear, hear)—whether he had been deeply im-
pressed with the importance of the task be had under-
taken, and whether the object he had in view was to
provide for the better education, net of one portion, not
of one sect, hut of all clowns of the pe rple :n this ern-
pire.--(llcar.) lie thought every one should acknow-
ledge that the, spirit in which the lion. Gentleman had
approached that question was one worthy of the sub-
ject—(Hear, hear)—that he had stated full and ably
the present deficiency hf education, that he seemed
clearly to perceive in what that deficiency con-
, sisted, and that whatever might be the merits of his
proposal, his inclination was to produce a plan which
should not excite jarring contentions, but should rather
toad to unite the various opiniotis prevailing upon that
subji et.—(Hear, hear.) If that were the case, he said,
there was good cause to induce the House to agree to
the request of the Hon. Gentleman that he should lay
that 13i11 on the table of the House. As to the further
questions, what were the difficulties which surrounded
the subject, and whether the plan proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman would overcome those difficulties, what was
the manner in which the plan proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman might be viewed by the public and by those
who were at present engaged in the promotion of educa-
tion, and whose services in that cause the House was
bound to honour, those were questions on which he
thought it better not to attempt to express upon that
occasion any imperfect views, which would not, perhaps,
be correctly founded on the measure which the Hor.
Member meant to introduce. He, thercfore, altogether
declined to give any opinion at that moment with respect
to the plan proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. That, he
thought, was afar bettcr course, than that he should either
commend that plan prematurely, or make to it objec-
tions which, after all, could not, perhaps, be founded
on the merits of the case itself. This only he would
say, that be thought that, perhaps, of the whole state-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman the part in which he most
doubted the accuracy of the allegations was that in
which he had alluded to the failure of the efforts made
for the improvement of popular education of late years.
His (Lord J. Russell's) impression rather was that al-
though the great efforts which it had been proposed
that they should have made three or four years ago had
not led to as large an extension of education as they
had anticipated, yet it had been attended with a con-
siderable addition of its blessi:igs. Whether there was
a failure at present in the desire and the means of carry-
ing on education, that again:would be a matter for sub-
sequent discussion. All he should then venture further
to say was that he thanked the lion. Gentleman for the
spirit in which he had brought that subject under their
notice.—(Hear, hear.) Frequently as he had twee dis-
appointed in discussing that question, he could not but
hope that, whether or nct the plan of the Hon. Gentle-
man should be adopted in the shape in which he had
proposed it, such a plan of general education discussed
with temper in that House might tend to advance that
great cause in which society was deeply interested, and
he should certainly cordially concur in giving his assent
to the introduction of the Bill.

Sir R. H. INGLIS said he willingly admitted the
temper and the ability:with which the Hon. Member for
Oldham had introduced the subject. But at the same
time he could not coincide in the principles on which the
plan of the Hon. Gentleman rest: d, or in the objects at
which he aimed. The Hon. Gentleman had said that
the question no longer was, whether it was or it was not
good that education should be diffused. But the point on
which he (Sir R. H. Inglis) was at issue with the Hon.
Gentleman was as to what was education. According
to the Hon. Gentleman it appeared to be the instruc-
tion of a man in those branches of learning which
terminated with man in this world—(Hear, hear)—and
the omission of every consideration of the eternal
destinies of man, for which this world and all its
concerns were bet a most fleeting preparation. The
Honourable Gentleman had said that the education
of the people was less advanced in this country
than in Prussia, in Saxony, or in other continental
countries. Bat he (Sir R. H. Inglis) thanked Heaven
that the people of England were sufficiently educated to
have saved us from the excitement which prevailed a
few years ago in Prussia.—(A cry of " Oh' from Mr.
B. Osborne.) he Hon. Member for Middlesex cried
" Oh," but he (Sir R. H. Inglis) believed that the Hon.
Member had reason, in common with the rest of the
people of this country, to thank Heaven for the charac•
ter displayed by its inhabitants on the 10th of April,
1848; and the people who had displayed that character
mu.t, he fl It persuaded, in some way or another, have re-
ceived the advantages of a good education. He would
not on the present occasion enter into questions of detail.
Ile wished the House to bear in mind that they were
asked to give their assent to a Bill which proceeded upon
the supposition that a system of secular education was
desirable for the people of this country. The Hon. Mem-
ber admitted that he did not wish to interfere with any
existing system of religious education, but wished the
education provided by the State to be secular or temporal.
He admitted, nevertheless, that religious education was
the greatest boon a child could receive--(Hear, hear)—
and then to show how his arguments and his facts
might he retort sd on themselves, went on to say that
notwithstanding this gloat boon he could not but admit
the practical conclusion to be a great increase of crime.
Dlr. Fox intimat d dissent.] Did he misrepresent the
Hon. Member? He stated as the result of the reports of
the different gaolers and inspectors of prisons, and in-
specters of schools, that religious acquirements were no
evidence of morality.
Mr. FOX said his position was that you could not give
real religious instruction unless you bestowed on the
mind so much of other knowledge as rendered it a fitting
soil to receive the germ.
Sir R. H. INGLIS was willing to take the position as
the Hon. Member had now put it, and could confidently
refer to those schools in which a religious education
was given, and ask whether secular education ens seen
there coincident and in juxta-position? The Hon. Mem-
appeared to think that in those schools where religion
was taught nothing else was taught. Now, though he
never would consent to admit that anything could be
put in competition with that which was destined to fit a
child for eternity, yet he asserted that at that moment,
in the greater part of the schools to which he had re-
ferred, and with which he was acquainted, 83 large a
proportion of secular education was afforded as
would be found in any other schools. This was a
question of fact upon which he could only state his own
personal conviction and belief. However, as there ap-
peared teoe no intention to divide the House, he would
merely recur to a proposition to which he had ventured
to call the attention of the Government some time ago
—namely, that they should make up their minds as to
what encouragement they would give to lay members of
the House of Commons, to amateur Members, in bring-
ing in these Bills. Lot no man feel himself aggrieved if
the Government, on the first movement of any subject,
should say at once, " This subject is good, and we ought
to take it up; and this is bad, and neither you nor any-
body else ought to take it up." The time of the House
would be greatly economised if the Government would
thus interfere with the discretion of private Members.
He did not mean to say that this subject was one on
which the deliberate consideration of the House would be
unwisely exercised, and he, therefore, would not refuse
permission to the Hon. Member to lay his statement for-
mally in the shape of a Bill before the House. But he
earnestly hoped that ultimately the House would not as-
sent to any measure which proposed to give the reci-
pients of education a system which terminated with this
world, leaving them to acquire from their fathers and
mothers—whose ignorance he had admitted—that know-
ledge on which their ultimate happiness depended.
Mr. M. MILNES agreed with the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government in thinking that it would be
better to postpone the discussion of the question till the
second reading of the Bill, and would nor, therefore, re-
ply to the arguments of the Right lion. Baronet who had
just sat down. All that would be admitted by allowing
the Bill to be brought in would be that religious and
secular education rested on different grounds. The ore
was capable of advancement and encouragement, and the
other not, and therefore the State might legitimately
interfere in the one, though not in the other.
Mr. HUME applauded the course pursued by the Hon.
Member for Oldham, who, to prove the inadequacy of
the present system, had not depended on his own know-
ledge, but had referred to the most able and independent
authorities. He denied that his lion. Friend had advo-
cated a system of secular • education alone. The Hon.
Baronet had asked what was education? He had always
considered it to be that mental training which fitted a
man to be a good member of society, and a good life led
to religion. Neither had his Hon. Friend proposed any
system of State education, but merely that property
should be made locally available to supply the deficiency
which existed in the education of the people. He
hoped that all would co-operate in so modelling the Bill
as to secure a general scheme of education for the coun-
try at large.
Mr. PLUMPTRE had understood the Hon. Member
for Oldham to state that the deficiency of education was
so great in this country that not above one child in
thirteen of the rising genwettion enjoyed its advantages.
Whether he had rightly collected the words of the Hon.
Member or not, he evidently thought the education of
the people at the present time very deficient. The
Hon. Member very liberally stated that it was not his
intention to interfere with schools already established,
whether in connexion with the Church or otherwise;
but his intentions were prospective; he merely wished
to fill up the gaps. Ho wanted, however, tc know from
the lion. Member what plan he proposed to introduce
into his new schools. If he understood him rightly, his
schools were to be open to the children of persons of all
denominations, but there was to be no religious instruc-
tion whatever, and the children were to be left to such
instruction as they could get from their parents or others.
The population of the districts in which these schools
were to be raised up, however, the Hon. Member pro-
posed to tax 4id. or 61. in the pound.—(No, no.) All
he could say was, that if such were the plan which the
Hon. Member proposed for the education of the great
mass of the rising population, he for one most solemnly
and religiously protested against it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE quite agreed with the Noble
Lord in thinking; that the most judinian course would
be not to enter into details on the present occasion.
In fact the way in which the details had been JAisunder-

stool 'bowed that they wore not in a position to dis-
cuss, theft:. He cond.' .curt howd-an r, i fea,in from paying
the humble tribute of his prole to the whole, east(,nsive,
and t3tatestnanithe view taken of the subject by the Hon.
Member fur Oldham. He was sorry to add one word of
bitterness to the discussion, but be must take this oppor-
tunity of proving that he had had the hAactit of some
education by expressing his sorrow for having allowed
an involuntary " On" to escape him when the Hon. Ba-
ronet the Member for the University of Oxford insti-
tuted the parallel between this country and Prussia,
which, coming from so good an historian, he was sur-
prised to hear. The Hon. Baronet might have told
them that as in Prussia there existed a highly educated
pi. °pie without a representative government, the natural
caurse OF events was to upset that state of things in
which, in fact, there was taxation without repre-
sentation.—(Hear. bear.) The Hon. Baronet 'went fur-
ther, he alluded to the 10th or April. Now he remem-
bered but one passage in history to which that rebellion
could be likened. and thiit was the rebellion of Lord
Grizzle in Tom Thumb. The Hon. Baronet asked what
was education? He (Mr. Osborne) had had, he would
not say the honour, because he regretted that he had

ever bran there, btr, he had boon a fnember of one of the

Universities. Ile was sent, there to receive, not educa-
tion, but instruct'on, and he knew not any year in his
life which he more wished to forget, and when h. reflected
on all the vice and the little horning which ho saw while
he was at Cambridge, he looked on the two Universities
as great hindrancc sto all proper education. He was the
more inclined to support the scheme proposed, because
he saw in it a strong assimilation to what he thought the
be•t mode of education—namely, the national system in
Ireland; and in conclusion, he could not help suspecting
the philanthropy of that man who would deny the people
education save on the condition of instilling into their
winds his own particular prejudices.
Mr. NAPIER was rather surprised to hear the Hon.
Member for Middlesex fasten on the University of
Cambridge the bad habits which he appeared to have
acquired.—(Cheers and laughter.) Although the Hon.
Member might have found opportunities for indulging
in vicious pursuits, ho might also, it was to be hoped,
have found occasion for the development of virtuous
habits.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had adverted
to the Hon. Baronet's observation as to the conduct of
the population of Middlesex on the 10th of April, but
perhaps the intelligence of that district might be judged
of by the representative they turned out and the one
they put in. The House would have an opportunity on
the second reading of the Bill of fully discussing the
whole system of national education; and he trusted that
the same spirit would be preserved which had marked
its introduction.—(Hear.) He concurred,in some part of
the Hon. Mover's views, but differed from him at that
point where he wished to separate seoular from
religious education. The proceedings of the association
were of great importance. He had looked into its pro-
ceedings, and had derived much advantage from it, be-
cause, although there were many things with which he
could not agree, still he thought it best to do like the:bee
and extract all the food that was to be found there. In
Manchester a meeting was called a short time since, for
the purpose of discussing this very question, and a pro-
position was submitted to it in the spirit of that brought
forward by the Hon. Member for Oldham, and yet, after
full discussion, an amendment was carried of a very op-
potite character. He hoped sufficient time would be
given for full discussion, and he thought it better that a
Bill of this kind should he brought forward by a pri-
vate Member than by the Government, as the latter
might, perchance, invest with a party character a ques-
tion which ought to be calmly and patiently considered
on its own merits exclusively. In conclusion, he could
not but express his satisfaction to see an endowment
oroposed and advocated by the advocates of the volun-
tary system.—(Hear.)

kr:COCK CAIRN regretted the allusions made by the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
to the Hon. Member for Middlesex, as it was desirable
to avoid all personal and irritating topics on a question
of this nature. This much, however, he would say of
the constituency of Middlesex, that with the integrity
aul intelligence of their present Member they had every
reason to be satisfied. He felt called on, as a warm
supporter of the general principle of the measure, to en-
ter his emphatic protest against the view which the Hon.
Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford had
taken of it. He denied that it was a system having re-
ge.rd only to the concerns of this world. He did not so
understand it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Oldham to him appeared as deeply impressed as
any man, that if you could combine religious with secu-
lar education, it would be most desirable far the State to
do so. Why, then, were they separated? Because it
was found impossible to combine them in one sys-
tem, as it would be impossible to obtain the con-
currence of either the Established Church or the
Dissenters. But it was said that religious education
was by far the most important. lie freely ad-
mitted it ; but if you could not, as a measure
of national education and policy, have both, was
that any reason why you should not have one?—(Hear,
hear.) Did the State at this moment maintain any sys-
tem of State education? None whatever. Schools
were established by the exertions and contributions of
individuals; and was there anything in this Bill to pre-
vent the continuance of the system? Certainly not.
Would any one contend that education in this country
was in a more forward state than in Prussia? At all
events would any one deny that the education of the
people of England was very far from what it ought to
be?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. MILES reminded the House that in 1839 a
proposition was made to separate secular from religious
education. What did the country say to it?—(Hear,
hear.) Was there not a cry raised against it from one
corner of the kingdom to the other? Did not the Church
of England and Dissenters alike approach the House with
petitions, and did not a Noble Lord, now a member of
the other House (Lord Stanley), bring forward a mo-
tion against it, and though in a minority, did he not
very nearly carry his motion? Did not the Archbishop
of Canterbury move certain resolutions condemning the
principle then brought forward? It was not his inten-
tion to enter into the question. He should be happy to
look at the Bill, which he hoped would be discussed with
the same good temper and toftearance which had marked
the present debate. Nothing would do more good than
a general discussion upon the whole system of educa-
tion, which he should like to see settled by Act of Par-
tial/lent; but while he was prepared to discuss it with
temper and forbearance, he would not sacrifice one iota
of his opinions. _ _

Mr. LAW was very glad that an opportunity would
be afforded for discussing how far en interference with
education could be justified by a body not immediately
responsible to Parliament. With reference to the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, he had not understood him to
assert that a good education could not be had at Cam-
but that a good education might turn out fruit-
less.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, however, must
have made up for lost time, for he never could have sat
in that House as the representative of Middlesex, unless
he had taken great pains to become at a late what he
night have become at an earlier period.—(Hear.)
re.r. NE WDEGATE wished not to misunderstand the
jon. Member for Oldham. As he understood him, the
inspection was to be carried into the secular education
,f every school of every denomination, and on the re-
port of that inspector as to insufficiency, it would be
competent for the Government to establish schools on the
principle proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, and to rate
the inhabitants.

Mr. FOX said the Hon. Member had in part mis-
understood him. The foundation of his plan was the
d.ficiency of education in different localities. The means
of ascertaining those deficiencies already existed to a
great extent in the documents which the Committee of
the Council had accumulated by means of the reports of
he inspectors. In a district such as that under the care
of the Rev. Mr. Dawes, in Hampshire, to whom the
41ause of education was under such important obligations,
the task would be easy enough. His national school
was conducted in such a manner that not only all the
children of the parish, but even those out of the parish,
attended it; farmers' children and labourers' children sat
together, and received the same instruction; and all the
inspectors would have to do in such a case would be to
report that the education was satisfactory. Where all
the inhabitants of a district were of the same religion,
they might incorporate religion as much as they pleased;
but the case was different when the population con-
tained members of various denominations. He did not
mean that religious education should not begin till secular
education had finished; on the contrary, he meant that
they should go on together, continuously and concur-
rently; but he could not think that mountains and stars
taught infidelity, or winds and waves heresy. He did
not wish to press the measure through the House, and
would conclude by fixing the next stage after the Easter
holidays.—(Hear, hear.)

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
JURISDICTION OF COUNTY COURTS.

Sir G. PECHELL presented petitions from Brighton
n favour bf the motion of the Hon. Member for Lewes.

Mr. FITZROY having presented petitions in favour
of extending the jurisdiction of the County Courts from
Berkshire, Birkenhead, Chichester, and Lewes, said, in
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the juris-
diction of the county courts from 201. to 501., it was not
his intention to trespass on the House at any length.
The principle for which he contended—namely, cheap
access to justice, had been already conceded in the estab-
lishmen of these county courts. No doubt it was desir-
able at first that the sum should not be a very large
one, in order that sufficient experience might be obtained
of the working of these courts ; but, he believed that it
was within the knowledge of any gentleman who knew
anything of the subject that the results had been
most satisfactory to all parties interested in the
working of these courts.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed
the public had already given its verdict in favour
of these courts--(Hear, hear)—for it was known that
the number of suits that had been already brought into
these courts, although they had been only three years
in existence, amounted to considerably more than
I.,ooo,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) The proportion the suits
in these courts bore to the suits tried in the courts of
Westminster Hall was not less than four to one. The
great objection that he understood would bo urged
against the motion he was about to submit to the House
was, that it svould affect the interests of the legal pro-
fession; and he had no doubt that their profits would
be considerably diminished. Although of course he had
no wish to see the profits of any class of men reduced,
yet it was desirable that they should not give such
encouragement to the heaping up of legal expenses
as would be a practical denial of justice to a large
number of the community. All ho asked of the
House was to extend to the creditor of 501. the same
protection that was already extended :to the creditor
of 201. He would mention one or two cases
to show the inconvenience of limiting the
jurisdiction of those courts to 20/. There was now be-
fore the court at Colchester a person on his petitition as
an insolvent. He was the plaintiff in an action—his
cause wa I at the bottom of the list, and he and his
wsses had been kept there a whole week. Th 3 conse-
quence was, that although he got a verdict for 321., the
acaogat of his demand, with 1201. costa, and although he