The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

was a successful plaintiff, he was a loser to the amount comfort and to the health of the hitherto neglected
of 301., the costs having amounted to 180/.; and, in ad- poor and working classes. With that view a board of
dicion to that, the cost of an interpleader, which was 30/. health had been appointed to remove every nuisaece
more, re fused him to the condition of an insolvent Was affecting the health of the community. Local Acts were
it desirable that he should he told to surrender 121. of also passed for the purpose of attaining this desirable
his debt because the county court had only jurisdiction object. As, for example, an Act was passed for Liver-
in cases of 201.? The next case was that of a succesfal pool to prevent the occupation of apartments below
defendant, the question being whether tbe plaintiff had the surface of the ground. They had re-
or had not sold to him a certain quantity of chemical ceived reports from every part of the country
preparatione. He was a suceesful defendant to the amount as to the manner in which the working people were
of 501., but his costs amounted to 801., and the plaintiff lodged. These went to show that the most valuable
told him that the law-suit had cost him 3001. portion of the community—the labouring classes—upon
—(He ir, hear.) The last case he should men- whore, after all, the prosperity of the country depended,
tion was one in which the plaintiff, although he re- had been neglected in a great degree by the Govern-
covered the full amount he claimed, lost 591. I Is. 2d. ment, who had the direction of everything that affected
The only real objection that could be made to his pro- their health and comfort. The expense of building cot-
position was, why should they stop at 501.—why not at tapes was so great as seriously to endanger the moral
oncemake the sum unlimited? So far as he was concerned and social condition of the people. He had visited
he should be at once prepared to assent to that, but he within the last two months many of the cottages of the
believed there must be some arbitrary limit. His reason labouring classes, and he found in some of them families
for proposing a limit of 501. was, that he should thereby of eleven and twelve children brought up without any
get the support of many Hon. Members who would net separation so r eeessary for the promotion of decency
otherwise support him. Ile appealed to the House to and morality. Speakirp, generally, he was informed
ask any respectable solicitor whether he would advise that there was a deity ofr' ten per cent, levied upon the
his client to go into one of the superior courts of law to value of bricks. When they looked at the dwellings of
recover 501. He believed nothing was of more frequent the poor they could scarcely blame the father of the fa-
occurrence at present then to have the amount of the mily for withdrawing from it occasionally to seek for
claim reduced so as to bring it within the jurisdiction sf greater comfort, which was afforded bins in the public-
the county court. The Hon. Gentleman referred to house. Ho was thus induced to spend his money upon
the remarks of a morning paper on the subject of the intoxicating drinks, leaving his family destitute and
local courts in ludie. in corroboration of his views, and unhappy. There were from 26,000,000 to 30,000,000
also to the observations made by the Attorney-General gallons of ardent spirits consumed by the popula-
in the course of the last session, when he (Mr. Fitzroy) tion. This enormous consumetion could only be ac-
proposed a similar measure to the present. 'Use objec• counted f)r by the fact that there was no inducement
lion then taken was, that there should be an appeal. to the working man to remain at home, for he had no
lie begged to say that the present Bill did contain comfort or enjoyment at his own fireside. The poverty
classes tor the purpose of giving an appeal.—(Hear.) and uncomfortable state of his house tended to alienate
With regard to the objections urged by Sir G. Grey oil the man from his abode, and to leave his family desti-
a previous occasion, he would remind the Right lion. lute. At the early part of the session he put in a word
Baronet that it was not so much speedy justice which for these classes. It was well known that many poor
these courts secured, as it was the affording the poor but men who earned but 9s. or 10s. a week could not afford
honest defendant an opportunity of paying the debt by to pay more for their lodging than Is. a week. It was
instalments. The Hun. Gentleman concluded by moving also well known that one of their little cottages could not
for leave to bring in his Bill. be built for 50/. or 60/. He wished the duty to be re-
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, as it seemed to moved from bricks altogether. He was satisfied that if
be the wish of the House to receive the Bill of the Hon. this duty were removed the benefit would not be con-
Gentleman, he should not interpose any objection to its fined to the poorer classes; the advantages would be
introduction.—(Hear, hear.) He felt it his duty, how- felt by all classes. By the return which he held in his
ever, although he believed he was taking an unpopular hand it would appear that the amount of duty received
course, to point out the objections he entertained to the for the last ten years from bricks was, on an average,
principle of the Hon. Gentleman's measure. The cases 481,318/. a year feem England, and 13,440/ from Scot-
referred to by the Hon. Gentleman of sums of 321. and land. He did not wish to limit his observationsaltogether
421, would be equally applicable to sums of 51/. and 52/., to bricks, for it was of equal importance to the health
and it might to-morrow be urged as a hardship that and comfort of the people that the window duty should
these also could not be recovered in the county courts.— be removed; and he was sorry that his Noble Friend
(Hear.) The sum of 20/. had been fixed upon after very (Lord Duncan) had not had an opportunity of bringing
long and earnest consideration, and there were the forward the question that night. The Government,
strongest possible reasons for fixing the maximum at that in their endeavours to carry out their sanitary mea-
sum; 201. had been laid down by the judges of the superior sures, ought to see that these duties upon windows
courts as the sum for which a man could not be arrested— and bricks were calculated to thwart and stop that
that was fixed as the sum which was unworthy the ex- progress that they would otherwise make in the im-
penses of litigation. The measure, as it at present stood, provement of the health and condition of the people.
had been in operation two or three years, and had given, Looking at the low wages, and the want of comforts
he believed, very general satisfaction. What effect the among the working-classes, he was astonished they were
extension of the jurisdiction might have in enabling able to manage as well as they did. The removal of
parties to obtain an extension of credit, by the facilities this and other taxes would add greatly to their comforts.
of recovering it would hold out, remained to be seen. On this ground he hoped the House would express its
At present the county courts were little more than an opinion in favour of his motion.
experiment, and he urged the House not to interfere Upon the question being put,
with them unnecessarily. If an appeal was given in the Mr. LABOUCHERE said, the Hon. Gentleman had
higher courts, he apprehended the law would not work frankly stated what was the intention of this motion—
satisfactorily. Again, there was the right of examining namely, to elicit the opinion of the House as to the duty
the plaintiff and defendant on their oaths—that might on bricks; and that the duty on timber was, to use his
work very well with regard to small amounts, but in metaphor, in the same boat. Now it was deemed right
larger sums he feared it would be too much for the not to pledge the House to any particular remission un-
honesty of the parties. If an appeal was once given in til they had heard the financial statement of his Right
all cases above 201. they would destroy their efficacy, Hon. Friend. But if the House were not of that
and they would dissatisfy the large body of suitors opinion, he said he would oppose the motion on the
who came before that court to recover smaller sums, terms in which his Hon. Friend bad stated in his mo-
by showing that there was a different law for the poor tion. Who was to define what cottages cost? He had
and the rich. It would, in his opinion, shake seen them built at great expense, and which certainly
the confidence of the public, and violate the principle could have no claims for exemption. He thought in a case
on which they were established. In his posi- of this kind there ought not to be a drawback, because
tion he could have no personal feeling or interest in the if granted it would open the door to a great deal of
matter. At the same time he did not mean to object to fraud. If there were, too, a drawback upon timber for
the introduction of the Bill; but ho could not pledge cottages, then they would be asked for a draw-
himself to give it his sanction at any future stage. He back upon timber used in ship-building and in mines.—
duceth Membernd
unless
wantedthey h
to introd-
(Hear, hear.) Then he doubted very much the policy
of encouraging the building of a low class of cottage.
thought
was thea
mostprinedipainege the
dangerous
Ho a. n.
one,a
some better arguments than had been urged by the Hon. He mentioned these things to show what caution should
Gentleman that night he hoped the House would not be be used in cases of this description.—(Hear, hear.) As
induced to adopt the Bill. to the remission of duties on bricks and timber, it would
Sir G. PECHELL said, originally no one was so be contrary to his duty on this occasion to express his
strenuous an advocate of the measure as the Hon. and opinion. Until the announcement was made by his
Learned Member for Chester. When he had introduced Right Honourable Friend in his financial statement he
a measure for the purpose of extending the jurisdiction would not pronounce an opinion one way or another,
of the Sheriff's Court to 501,7 the present Lord Chan- and he said it would be premature for the House to de-
cellor had supported him, and Baron Rolfe had assisted clare its opinion as to a remission of taxation on any
him in introducing it. The fact of many parties aban. particular matter. This motion was on its own merits
doning a portion of their claims in order to bring the inexpedient, and ought not to be adopted; he, therefore,
debt within the jurisdiction of these county courts was opposed the motion.
the best proof of the estimation in which they were Mr. I)RUMMOND thought the conduct which it was
held, and the popularity they enjoyed. He hoped the proper for a Minister of the Crown to pursue in such a
Hon. Member would be successful in carrying his ease as this was not that which was most proper for a
measure. Member of the House to adopt. When the financial

Mr. CLAY supported the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman
' had not stated whether he was to extend the appeal to all
debts, or to those only above 201. He did not think
the additional burden thrown upon the superior courts
by these appeals would be of so much consequence as
that great weight of business that would be taken off
these courts by the transference of business to the county
courts.
Mr. HENLEY regretted to find that the Hon. and
Learned Attorney-General had given his sanction to the
ietruduction of the Bill. It would be only consuming
another night in discussing its principle, if the Govern-
ment was prepared to throw it out at a fawns stage. L
was admitted on all hands that these courts hat worked
extremely well, and so sure as the sun was in the hea-
vens, if they extended their jurisdiction they would de-
stroy their utility. It was on that ground that he opposed
the measure. Ho wished to know whether Hon. Mem-
bers who were disposed to do away with imprisonment
fir det.t for all sums under 201. were disposed to extend
it to 501., or to all sums? If they did so where were
they to stop? He regreted. under these circumstances,
that if the Government had a strong objection to the
Bill they had not at ouce thrown it out.
Sir G. GREY had great doubts as to the expediency
of extending the jurisdiction of those courts. He had
last year stated the grounds ou which he objected to ex-
tending the sum from 20/. to 501.
Mr. FITZROY—That Bill was without an appeal.
Sir G. GREY admitted that there was that differ-
ence, and it was impossible also to deny that there was
a strong feeling in the country in favour of the exten-
sion of the jurisdiction.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulties,
however, that beset the question would be best seen when
they bad the Bill More them, complicated as it was by
the proposition for an appeal and the admission of a bar,
and the other attendant circumstances of ordinary courts
of law. The principle of these courts was only com-
patible with the adjudication of small stakes. He should
be curious to see what was the extent of the appeal
which the Hon. Member proposed to give. If the appeal
was to go to the superior courts, the whole value of
these jurisdictions would cease. He entertained grave
doubts as to the policy of disturbing the present arrange-
any step of the kind they
tillreonlet'wbcaoeuliul suettheerlybe'dieesvterdoythtahte value and utility of that
system of jurisdiction.
restaigtse it might find more fa-
vouran
ptir
nh
caitot
eh emyowr
ee raet to
length.have
ule considered it exceedingly discussingde-
sirable Lord I). STUART was glad the Government did
not intend to oppose the Bill,
ine ohpoipnpoertdht uetnihri
atyeti,oenfs
.a t.
that the jut isdiction of these courts should be ex-
tended. He found, by returns that had been laid before
the House, that the proportion of cases under 90/. and
between 201. and 50/, tried in the superior courts of
London and Middlesex, was extremely small, and that
was a strong argument in favour of the extension of the
jurisdiction. He regretted the Government had not
taken up the question. But if his Hon. Friend did not
succeed he hoped he would more for a Committee of
inquiry into the whole of the subject, which was one
deserving the serious attention of the House.
Mr. H. BERKELEY took very much the view of the
Attorney-General with regard to the effect of the pro-
posed measure. He feared that the extension of the ju-
risdiction of these courts would materially affect their
utility and value. It was very doubtful whether it would
be possible to admit the bar to such a court without first
altering the meter° of the judges. He trusted that the
Government would not yield an inch from the position
taken up by the Attorney-General.
Mr. MULLINGS, as a retired practical lawyer, would
give his cordial support in favour of bringing in he Bill.
He did not, however, agree with the Hon. Mover, that
all the great expenses incidental to the superior courts
went into the pockets of the
attorneys. The pleadings
alone were enormous to bring the case to an issue. The
parties went down to the assizes with all their wit-
nesses, having previously given enormous fees to their
counsel. They were then often obliged to wait for seve-
ral days before the cause could be tried. For all these
proceedings the attorney did not get ono farthing beyond
the money he expended; and at last he, perhaps, had
the pleasure of recovering 50/., after having incurred
an expenditure of GO/. or 70/., while the unhappy
plaintiff had probably to pay 40/. or 50/. by the way of
extra costs. He thought that these county courts had
conferred the greatest benefit upon the country, and that
benefit would be considerably increased by extending the
jurisdiction of them to claims of 501. He hoped that the
proposed measure would also go so far as to bring in
equitable matters, which in the ordinary course of things
did not come within the cognisance of a court of law.
He did not think that there would be any difficulty in
allowing appeals, provided the party so appealing was
required to give security for costs.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said it was not an uncommon
thing in the trade to which he belonged to sue persona
owing 301. or 351. in the county courts, the claimants thus
consenting to abandon the excess over 20/., in order to
render it recoverable in that way. But the effect of this
was to give encouragement to fraudulent debtors to refuse
payment until they were compelled by these courts, being
thus assured of being able to get rid of their liabilities in
an easy way. Great injustice would be done to all such
claimants if the jurisdiction of these courts was not
increased.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
BRICKS AND TIMBER DUTIES.
Mr. HUME then rose to move that this House,
taking into consideration the condition of the cottages
of the labourers of this kingdom, and the want of
adequate accommodation for their families, is of opinion
that a drawback should in future be allowed on the
br:cks and timber employed in the construction of cot-
tages the rent of which shall be under 4/. per annum, es
a means of lessening the expense of their erection. He
hoped that the same unanimity as had existed in the
discussion upon the previous question would prevail in
the consideration of the present motion. Early in that
session he took au opportunity of reminding the Go-
vernment that if they had any money to sparo it might
be applied with great advantage in such a way as to
give effect to such a proposition as the present. Much
to the credit of the House and the country a strong die-
position was manifaeted recently to pay attention t 9 the

statement had beers made, then Ministers would say tha,
the case was then made up—that it was then too late to
listen to any other proposal.—(Hear.) He believed it
was not the intention of the House to do injustice to the
poorer classes—that when injustice was done it was be-
cause the House was not aware that it was doing injustice.
(Hear.) If the relief now asked for were granted, he
admitted that it would not be universally felt, because it
would he of no use in the northern and other parts
of the country, where there were abundance of mate-
rials for building; there were, however, other parts of
the country, and especially those with which he was
best acquainted, on which this relief would confer a very
great benefit. A gentleman anxious to build cottages
for the poor could not do so at a less expense than 1001.
each. In such places, a tradesman from a neighbouring
town could build the same sort of cottage, let it for 101.,
and the occupier made the rent by letting the rooms to
whole families, and thus, while the gentry were endea-
vouring Login) three rooms to each family, the plan was
destroyed by some adjoining tradesman. In consequence
of lessening the size of farms, he foresaw that there must
be a very great increase of farm buildings. Now, much
expense was caused in building by the high price of
bricks. The tax increased the price of bricks by two-
thirds. In some places the benefit would be very small,
in other cases it would be very great. Ho hoped in sup-
porting this motion there would be no sneer against him
and others of having ulterior motives, in voting for a
repeal of the tax, which they would vote for, because
,they conceived it would be an essential relief to the
agriculturists. Now, he voted for this, though he did
not vote with the Noble Lord against the window duty—
they must have houses—there was no use in windows
without houses.—(Laughter.) He would oppose the
remission of any tax which did not bear directly upon
the working classes. He said he did not want to em-
barrass the Government; but he said if they wanted
money, let them not take their taxes from the poverty of
the country.—(Hear.)
Mr. YE I'O supported the motion. He could point
out cases where 20 persons were found occupying two
rooms. He believed the remission of the duty on bricks
would put an end to this evil. Until it was at an end
there could be no classification of the poorer classes.
Lord C. HAMILTON was glad the Hon. Member for
Montrose had brought this subject before the House;
he only regretted he had not brought it forward in a
more comprehensive manner. There was no question
that more materially affected the well-being of the work-
ing classes than this.
Mr. MITCHELL said, if the Hon. Member should
go to a division on this subject, he would support it. He
differed in the opinion that had been expressed on this
subject by the Right Hon. the President of the Board of
Trade, that such motion should not be brought forward
until the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had been made, and no proposal for a remission of tax-
ation submitted to the consideration of the House until
then. At the present moment a drawback was allowed
on all timber used in the erection of churches; and ho
did not apprehend that, with ti vigilant control, there
would be any danger of fraud if a drawback were also
allowed upon bricks. Should the Hon. Member for
Montrose again bring forward his motion, however, he
trusted that be would give the; House some idea how
fraud was to be avoided. Being of opinion that a good
case existed for a revision of this tax, he should sup-
port the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Mr. R. 'PALMER agreed with Lord C. Hamilton
upon the prudence of not pressiug this motion at this
moment. But he was strongly of opinion that it would
be exceedingly advantageous to repeal the duty upon
bricks altogether, and that such a measure would be
quite as useful as a repeal of the window-tax.—(Hear.)
It' the Hon. Member intended to confer a benefit upon
the owners and occupiers of small cottages, he would be
doing so to a much greater extent by proposing the total
repeal of the duty upon bricks than by this proposition
for allowing a drawback.
Mr. HEY WORTH supported the motion, and ob•
served that he thought this discussion would lead, ulti-
mately, into a general revision of the duty upon every
article that entered into the consumption of the people.
Mr. HUME, in reply, said that his object had been to
ascertain the opinion of the House, and it appeared that
that opinion was decidedly in favour of an entire and
total repeal of the duty.—(Hear, hear.) He was not
much in the habit of proposing half measures, and in
doing so in the present instance he must confess that he
had signally tailed.—(Laughter. and hear, hear.) The
Hon Gentleman then intimated that, with the leave of
the House, he would withdraw his motion.
Motion withdrawn accordingly.
MANAGEMENT OF RAILWAY TRAFFIC.
Mr. RICAItDO moved for leave to bring in a Bill for
the better regulation of railway traffic. The Hon. Mem-
ber briefly alluded to the numerous inconveniences
which were attendant upon the present system; the want
of uniformity of tolls—tbe danger incurred by the pas-
sengers in having to change carriages upon their journey
—the meaner in which the " points" were worked at the
junctions, and other evils and inconveniences; and said ,
that the object of his BRI was to provide an efficient
remedy with which Hon. Members might make them-
selves acquainted immelately upon the Bill being
printed.—Leave given.
Viscount EMLYN moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the laws relating to highways in South Wales.
Mr. C. LEWIS admitted that there did exist certain
reasons why the highways in South Wales should be
under a separate system of management, and being of
that opinion he would not oppose the motion of the
Noble Lord.—Leave given.
EXTRA-MURAL INTERMENTS.
Mr. LACY moved for leave to bring in a Bill for pro-
moting extra-mural interments. The Hon. Gentleman
staid he. dared say some Hon. Members would be startled
at his project; but the proposition was simply to allow
railway companies, with the sanction of the Railway
Commissioners, to hold cemeteries. He proposed that,
after having obtained the approbation of the share-
holders and the Commissioners, these companies should
be empowered to purchase a sufficient quantity of waste
land at a convenient distance, say twenty-five or thirty
miles, from the metropolis, and thereon construct a ce-
msterY• conmeed that hv one genera con"