The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-28 00:00:00

and other Gentlemen had produced measures of reduc-
tion in tixe‘l salaries, but the Honourable Member for
the Weit Riding bad on every occa,ion confounded
woes and fixed salavie:3. Because they ha•i propoed
reductions in fixed salaries in consequence (,f the altered
state of Ltrairs in the country, he stLt,tl that they were
atLcking w..iges.—(Hear.) They were not attacking
wages; they were only saying this, ihat the country
being in an altered position, the paying power of the
country being reduced, and the middle classes being in
a state cf great distress, all fixed payments should un-
dergo the ordeal of a severe and well-considered revi-
sion; but none of them said a word about wages.—
(Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Gallant Colonel
(Colonel Thompson) denied the distress of the middle
classes; but had not his constituents lost a great deal of
money?

Colonel THOMPSON—Gained a great deal; they
were now in a better condition than ever they were in
their lives.`—(A laugh.)
_ _ -

Mr. DISRAELILIite Hon. and Gallant Colonel bad
made a laity, and he had given way with great pleasure;
but had his constituents not lost by the railroads they
had heArd so much ef?—(oh, oh.) Ha would rejoice if
it was not so; and to learn that what they were told the
other night, that there was nut a large town in. the north
of Eugland that was not ruined by these railroads, was
not the fact.—(Hcar.) He hoped that he had at least
put the question as to the motives which influenced the
gentlemen on his side el the House on its fair ba,is, and
shown that they voted fur retrenchment, because the
middle classes were not in a position iu which they
could endure those expensive establishments that in other
circurost.inces they were accustomed to maintain.

Mr. V. SMITH thought it very inconvenient to be
always running back into the disput.cl quertioa of
free trade on oeca,ions like the present. He thought
that instead of the paying power of the country being
reduced it had been increased; but, whether it was so or
not, he thought that all public salaries should, from
time to time, be considered with relation to the
price of provisions. In his opinion, however, the
time had not arrived for doing so, as they had not yet
sufficient experience to guide them in that matter.—
(Hear, hear.) He objected to the anomaly of the secre-
taries to the Treasury receiving as salaries 2,5001. a
year, while 2,0001. a year was the amount allotted to t►he
heads of all those departments which bad bees recently
esta.bli.hed. These were questions, however, that would
be considered by the Committee which had been ap-
pointed, and he therefore objected to any reductions
being now made by the House.
Mr. NE WDEGA.TE thought the House should not
lose sight of what the real principle proposed by the.
Hon. Member for Oxfordshire was. The proposal of
his Hon. Friend was, that as a great alteration bad now
been made in the cost of productions, mainly brought
about by legislative enactments, it was just to accommo-
date the remuneration of the public servants to the
altered circumstances of the times; but he did not pro-
pose, as seemed to be imagined, a per-centage reduction.
Such a proposal the Hon. Member (Mr. Cobden) cha,
racterised as spiteful and malicious. Why was the Hon.
Gentleman so tender on the civil service, and so severe
on the naval and military? Was it that, looking for-
ward to future contingencies, he was afraid that he
might yet lament to see in his own case that he was
bereft of those great benefits that were conferred by the
civil service? Or was it that the Hon. Gentleman, under
cover of retrenchment, was taking advantage of the coun-
try? Did ho wish to protect the commerce of the
country? He showed himself the other night an able
advocate for pirates.—(Hear, hear.) Was he really so
jealous of the greotness of this country that he wished
to strike down her defensive establishment:, and verify
his own saying that it was time for them to break elf
singing " Rule Britannia?"—(A laugh.) One thing
was clear, that he would never give his cordial en-ope-
ration towards reducing the salaries of those who, resi-
dent in this country, had reaped the full advantage of a
reduction of prices.—(Hear, hear.)

The amendment of Mr. Forbes was then negatived,
and the vote then agreed to.

A sum of 26.000rwas then agreed to towards defray-
ing the expenses of the Home Department.
THE FOREIGN OFFICE.

On the next vote, of 71,0001 for the salaries and other
expenses in the department of the Foreign-office,
Lord MAHON said there was one item connected
with this vote to which he wished to call the attention of
the House, and with respect to which a strange
anomaly existed. He meant the system of pass-
ports granted to British subjects travelling to foreign
states. .I.le made not the slightest charge against
the Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary. lie, like his
predecessors, had found the system established, and
had merely continued it; but he (Lord Mahon) wished
the House to consider whether great improvement
might not be made in it. Happily and wisely, we re-
quired no passports here; but on the continent a dif-
ferent system prevailed. Foreign Ministers resident
here granted passports to British subjects, or passports
might be obtained at the Foreign-office; but the former
were supplied gratuitously, whilst the latter cost
2/. 2s. 6,1.; and the result had been that out of the tens
of thousands of British subjects proceeding to the con-
tinent very few, scarcely 200 or 300, procured them
from the Foreign-office. At the same time many per-
sons thought it more desirable to travel under a British
rather than a foreign passport, and the payment for it
was evaded with perfect ease. If a person wished to
travel to Madrid or Vienna under a British t aisprt he
took a French passport as fsr a.; Paris, and then ob-
tained gratuitously from the British Minister a passport
to Spain or Austria. He thought, therefore, that the
charge of 2/ 2e. 61. for a British passport here should
Le reduced to 4s. or 55., and the same charge might be
made abroad. The result would be that a very large
number of passports would be granted at the Foreign-
cffiee. Until the system on the continent of requiring
passports was altered we must consider what mine it
was the most desirable for this country to pursue as to
granting them; but he wss quite sure the Noble Lord
would see that the present system was quite indefensible
as to its effee, and that in another session it might not
be unworthy of the consideration of a Committee of the
House.

Lord PALMERSTON admitted that there was an
apparent anomaly in the arrangements of the Foreign-
office as regarded passports, the expense being much
higher than the amount, which was very trifling, if any,
required by the Foreign Ministers; but his Noble Friend
knew perfectly well that the sum for a British passport
at the Foreign-office consisted partly of the stamp and
partly of a tee, which went to the aggregate fee fund,
from which part of the expenses of the office was paid.
If the change which his Noble Friend suggested were
adopted, and passports were given at the Foreign-office
at a very small charge, the consequence would be that
a great number would be applied for and a con-
siderable addition to the establishment of the
office would be necessary, interfering very much
with the business transacted there, and being at-
tended also with considerable expense. As to
the convenience to individuals, he was not sure there
was a material advantage in a British passport; any
person might gat a foreign passport, and if he wanted to
change it for a British passport abroad he could do so
on easy terms. Considering the great number who
started for the continent only to stay there for a short
time, he did not see that any inconvenience arose from
their taking a passport of a foreign minister.
Mr. HUME thought it hardly consistent with the
dignity of this country, which the Noble Lord was so
anxious to uphold, that an Englishman should travel
under foreign colours. He knew no man in that House
who was more anxious to maintain the dignity and cha-
racter of England than the Noble Lord—(Hear, hear)—
and yet on this point he allowed this strange anomaly.
He (Mr. Hume) wished the Noble Lord would tell the
House how many passports were granted last year by the
Foreign. office?
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the Noble Lord would not an-
swer the question.—(A laugh.) If there were no pass.
ports every person would .travel on an equality; and be
wished that that was the case on the continent, as it was
hare. Travelling with the passpor tof the British Secre-
tary of State was supposed to be a great thing; the indi-
vidual went through all countries protec'ed by the dig-
nity of England; and for 21. odd he might have that
passport. He wished all our passports were entirely
abolished.—(Hear, hear.) Throughout the republics of
America no passport was required, and we ought to set
a similar example to Europe.
Mr. COBDEN did not know whether any large
amount was brought to the fee-fund by passports granted-
at the Foreign-office. If there were he should be sorry
to say anything to reduce it—(A laugh)—but his expe-
rience had taught him that the pssport of the British
Minister for Foreign Affairs was not of more value than
the passport of a foreign consul.
Mr. V. SMITH observed, that if the suggestion of
the Honourable Member for Sheffield were acted on, it
might lead to great inconvenience to British subjects,
and therefore the consideration should be, whether a
better system of granting passports could not be adopted.
As there appeared to be a general wish for the abolition
of passports altogether, and as he understood there had
been some negotiation on the subject with France, he
would ask the Noble Lord whether he bad bad any com-
munication with auy other Power of Europe, and whether
there was any probability of that most absurd system of
passports being abolished?
Lord PALMERSTON said he certainly had a very
good reason for not answering the question of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Montrose,- as he was not able to
do so—(A laugh)—but he could say that a very small
number of passports had been granted at the Foreign-
office. As to the question of his Right Honourable
Friend the Member for Northampton, there had
been no communication made by her Majesty's
Government to any foreign Government in re-
gard to this matter, which peculiarly belonged
to their own internal regulations. He did not know
of any ground upon which we should be justified
in asking any foreign Government to dispense with. re-
gulations which they adopted for their own internal pur-
poses; but certainly, some time ago, there was reason to
think that the French Government was going to recon-
sider these arrangements. He had not heard that they
had carried that intention into effect, nor bad he heard
that any other Government had any intention of abolish..
ing the system of passports.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether there was
any passport between this country and Belgium?
Lord PALMERSTON believed that passports con-
tinued to be given.

in the amount of travelling charges for messengers and
couriers.
Mr. ROEBUCK understood that F,:.giish messengers
travelled much more slowly than foreign messengers;
and he had been informed that the caa,;(l of it was, first,
that English messengers were paid a certain mileage;
and, next, that instead of travelling as other measec.gers
and couriers did, namely, on horseback, they travelled
lik,. gentlemen, in carriages.
Lord PALNIERS f ON could assure the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that he was misinformed when he
said that the British messengers were at all less expedi-
tious than the messengers of other countries. They al-
ways went by railway when that mode of travelling was
available, otherwise they travelled in carriages. It was
impossible they could carry their bags containing dis-
patches on horseback. As a proof of the zeal with which
these messengers rendered their services to the Govern-
ment of this country he would mention an instance in
which a gentleman (tor they were gentlemen) per.
formed his duty on an occasion when it was
required that ho should make an extraordinary
effort. One of the Queen's messengers, Colonel
Townley, in order to carry a dispatch of very consider-
able importance from the Foreign-office to Constanti-
nople at the time when a question was pending between
Russia and Turkey, was three days and tines nights in
the saddle without quitting it, and performed that jour-
ney in the worst weather and under the greatest possible
ditlieulties. This showed that these servants of the public
were willing to perform, and capable of performing duties,
when required of them, which one would think it was
almost impossible that any human being would be able
to go through. He (Lord Palmerston) was glad at having
this opportunity of doing justice to that excellent courier
whose great exertions he had mentioned, and whose zeal
had not teen surpassed by any person who had been
employed in that department of the public service.
Mr. ROEBUCK had no doubt of the truth of the
Noble Lord's statement; still he understood that while
the distance beta een Paris and Madrid was performed
by foreign couriers in five days, an English messenger
always took seven days to accomplish the journey. He
was informed also that an English messenger always
took some person with him, who paid the expenses of
the journey to the messenger, although that messenger
was paid by the British Government. This was a sort
of stigma upon the public service of England; and, at
the same time, made it appear that our messenger system
was used to subserve the private interest of individuals
to the detriment of the public service.
Lord PALMERSTON said it very often happened
that it was of great advantage to the public service that
the messenger should have some one with him. The
messenger never allowed the bags containing the dis-
patches to be out of his possession, and yet his presence
was necessary at different places in order to show his
passports, to hire horses, and so forth. It would be very
difficult for him to do this and to carry his bags with
him. He (Lord Palmerston) did not believe that the
British messengers were slower travellers than the mes-
sengers of other countries. They were required to state
the time of their arrival at, and of their departure from,
every place, and his impression was that the opinion of
the Hun. and Learned Gentleman was not founded upon
a true st ,te of the facts.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 37,4001. for the salaries and expenses of
the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies was then
agreed to.
The vote of 43,000/., for defraying the salaries and
expenses of. the Privy Council-office and the Board of
Trade was postponed.
A vote of 2,000/., to pay. the Salary of the Lord
Privy Seal, and a vote of 24,100/, for "the salaries and
contingent expenses of the Postmaster-General, were
agreed to.
On the sum of 6,5761. being proposed to pay the
salaries and expenses of the department of Controller-
General of the Exchequer.
Colonel SIBTHORP repeated his denunciation of the
appointment of Lord Monteagle to the office of Con-
troller of the Exchequer, as being one of the most
corrupt jobs that had ever been practised. He (Colonel
Sibthorp) had, however, done some good in moving for
a return of the number of days the Noble Lord attended
at his office, as it had been the means of making that
Noble Lord more punctual in his attendance. Unfor-
tunately, the salary of the Noble Lord was not included
in this vote, but was paid under an Act of Parliament
out of the consolidated fund, otherwise he would have
moved that it be deducted from the vote. He considered
the whole of the duty of this department might be per-
formed more economically and satisfactorily by the Bank
of England. He would not object to add 500/. a year to
the salary of the Assistant-Controller, it it were taken
from the salary of the Controller-General.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. and Gallant Member might
with great propriety propose to abolish the office of
Assistant-Controller. [Colonel SIRTHORP.--" No: he is
the best of the two."] But they could not touch the
Controller-General, who held his appointment under an
Act of Parliament. By abolishing the office of Assis-
tant-Controller they would be recognizing the principle
that there ought to exist no office to which duties were
not attached.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 2,700/. for salaries and expenses for the
State Paper-office was agreed to.
Oa the sum of 3,640/. being proposed to defray a por-
tion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
of England,
Mr. V. SMITH expressed an opinion that this vote
ought not to appear in these estimates. In the report of
tee Committee in reference to the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission it was stated that it appeared that the duties per-
formed by that establishment were confined to the
management of ecclesiastical property, and generally to
the control of ecclesiastical business, and that the Com-
mittee were of opinion that the vote might fairly be de-
frayed altogether out of the funds of the Commission.
On the 15th of March, 1844, the Commissioners agreed
to the proposal for throwing upon the property intrusted
to them such portion of_ the salaries as might be con-
sidered immediately connected with that property and
the management of it. Now, be could not conceive what
other duties the clerks who were mentioned in this esti-
mate had to perform, except what were connected with
that property. Therefore the Commissioners had, in
fact, assented to defray the whole expense of their estab-
lishment. Perhaps some arrangement might be made
by which the payment of these expenses would be pro-
vided for in the Bill respecting the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission now before the House?
Sir B. HALL concurred in the opinions expressed by
the last speaker. He also complained that the Commis-
sioners had furnished no report for a considerable time.
They were equally backward in making returns ordered
by the House. The Commissioners were directed to
make a return on the 2d of this month, which they bad
not yet complied with. The House of Commons knew
nothing of what the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were
about except this, that the episcopate body had spent
143,0001. in building their own palaces in eight dioceses,
whilst only the miserable sum of 5,000/. had been appro-
priated in the same dioceses to the augmentation of
small livings.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY thought it only reasonable that this
vote should be postponed until after the Ecclesiastical
Commission Bill had been discussed. The returns to
which the Hon. Member for Marylebone had referred
were returns with which the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners, as such, had nothing to do. The returns must
be made from the various dioceses, and their preparation
would occupy considerable time.
The vote was then postponed.
TIIE POOR.LAWS.
The next vote was 277,5001. to defray the expense of
administering the poor-laws.
Colonel SIBTHORP was of opinion that the new poor-
law had been productive of no benefit to the country,
whilst it had aggravated this misery of the poor by shutting
them up in bastiles. If there were any chance of suc-
ceeding he would propose to reduce the vote by 10 or
15 per cent.; but there was no chance of carrying a
proposition for retrenchment in the face of a well-filled
Treasury Bench, and such an array of "financial re-
formers" as ho saw opposite. These gentlemen on the
hustings declaimed loudly as to the necessity of reducing
the expenditure by ten millions, but in the House of
Commons they invariably supported Ministers in resist-
bars every practical measure of economy.
tolonel DUNNE suggested that the salaries of au-
ditors, schoolmasters and mistresses, and medical officers
in Ireland should be defrayed out of the consolidated
fund, as was done with respect to those charges in
England.
Mr. HUME, on the contrary, thought it would be a
better arrangement to remove till those charges from the
consolidated fund, and impose them on the unions.
Mr. BRIGHT found that the two secretaries to the
Poor-law Board—a Noble Member of that House (Lord
Ebiiiigton) and Mr. Nicholls—had salaries of 1,500/. a
year each, whilst the President of the Board received
2,000/. The salary of the secretary appeared large in
proportion to that of the president, and he thought that
1,0001. was enough for the former.—(A cry of " Move.")
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed a hope that
the London board would continue to maintain some con-
trol over the 'medical department of the administration
of the poor-laws, Otherwise the sick poor would be ne-
glected.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY referred to the fact, that
the large sum of 9,152/. was set down for the incidental
expenses of the Poor-law inspectors. That was cquiva-
lent to 7001. to each of those gentlemen, independently
of their salaries, and would allow them nearly 2/. 10s. a-
day for travelling expenses, if they travelled 300 days in
the year.
Mr. BAINES said that the two secretaries might be
looked upon as representing the former Poor-law Board,
the members of which had a salary of 2,000/. a year each.
The expense of the old Board was 6,0001; that of the
present one was only 5,000/. Allusion bad been made
to the Poor-law inspectors. It was to the inspectors,
who came in place of the former Assistant-Commis-
sioners, but discharged some additional duties, that the
boards of guardians first applied in cases where advice
was desired; and on them also devolved the task of mak-
ing inquiry when it was necessary for the central board to
inform themselves on any question by means of an impar-
tial authority. He was certain that those who as members
cf boards of guardians rendered gratuitous and, most
efficient service to the country would be willing to bear
their tfatimony to the services rendered_ by the inspec-
tors, whose duty it was to make the poor-law work as
well and harmoniously as possible, each in his district,
and than whom there was no more valuable body of
public servants. The item of 9,1521. for travelling and
incidental expenses included the allowance made to in-
spectors for travelling expenses, the allowance at the
rate of one guinea a day each for other expenses, and
also the salaries of inspectors' clerks.
Mr. SEYMER concurred in the remarks made by the
President of the Poor-law Board with reference to the
inspectors; the guardians had only to comp'ain that they
did not see them often enough.
Mr. BAINES obseried that an inspector, whenever a
union expressed a wish for the presence of one, forthwith
proceeded to the spot.
Mr, BRIWIT propoked to reduce the vote by the sum

necessary to bring the salaries of the secretaries down to
1,000/. each.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated
Vat there were two Secrearies, one in Parliament,
the other not. The latter used to receive. 2,0001. as
a Commissioner, had served thirteen years, and now
discharged duties r.s important for 1,500/. It would be
exceedingly bard to deprive him of that amount ; a
piece of more false economy could not be proposed. The
salary of the Secretary who held a seat in that House
would come for consideration before the Committee on
official salaries recently appointed, and pending the in-
quiry of the Committee it would not be dealing fairly
with the office for the House of Commons to interfere.
The Government were prepared to act on the recom-
mendations of that Committee when they were made.
Mr. BRIGHT admitted that there was some force in
the remark of the Right Hon. Gentleman, with refe-
rence to the salary in the second case being under con-
sideration of the Committee on Official Salariee. All
gentlemen were declared efficient when their salaries
were made the subject of discussion. He should not
divide the House on his proposition.
Mr. EVELYN DENISON recalled the attention of
the House to the nllowance of a guire,s a-day given to
each of the inspectors. He described it as a salary under
another name.

Mr. BAINE3 acknowledged that the allowance was
vally a part of salary. From the first it had been ar-
ranged that a certain portion of salary should be so
paid. The travelling expenses charged were the actual
expenses of locomotion.
Mr. MONSELL thought the charges for medical
offimrs should be paid from the consolidated twit! in
Ireland, as in England and Scotland.
Sir G. PECHELL inquired why the judges of
County Courts should be allowed only 15s. a day, when
the Poor-law inspectors were allowed one guinea a-day ?
He did not approach the subject with the feelings he
had on former occasions had to express. He had nothing
to say of mismanagement, for he was satisfied the pro-
ceedings of the Poor-law Board were now conducted on
a very different footing; and he trusted the President of
the Board would continue to give the satisfaction he
had hitherto given._

Colonel RAWDON thought the allowance for me-
dical officers ought to be extended to Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that in 1846 it had been arranged to pay certain charges
for medical officers, &c., out of the consolidated fund in
England and Scotland, where the county police were not
paid by the Government. But the cost of the constabu-
lary in Ireland was paid out of the public Exchequer;
for the year ending February last it amounted to
574,0001., having increased upwards of 90,0001. within
the last two years.
Colonel DUNNE observed that the police in Ireland
ought to be reckoned as a military force. The expense
of the poor-law in Ireland had much increased since the
arrangement made in 1846.
Sir R. FERGUSON reminded the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that a portion of the constabulary expenses
had always been borne by the consolidated fund. The
portion borne by local taxation had never exceeded
160,0001. or 190,0002

Mr. E. DENISON briefly supported the view Of the
Hon. Member for Limerick, with respect to the payment
of the medical officers of the unions in Ireland.
Mr. BRIGHT did not think that Ireland was so badly
used in this matter after all, seeing that last year 62,8001.
was votel for the Poor-law establishment of Ireland, and
only 35,0001. for that of England.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to a general local taxation, he begged to say that
a thorough reform of the grand jury system would en-
able Ireland to obtain areduction of that without coming
to that House.
Mr. MONSELL said that supposing the grand jury
system were reformed, the only saving that could be
effected by that means was upon the 1,100,0001 of grand
jury cess—and of that sum the Hon. Member would
perhaps be surprised to learn that the grand juries had
the control over one-fourth only, the rest being compul-
sory.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH wished to know what was the meaning
of the Irish Poor-law Board keeping an architect?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the ordinary duties
of the architect were to visit and inspect the workhouse
buildings; and at present there was a large number of
additional workhouses in the course of erection.
Mr. VESEY considered that hitherto the architect had
been a nuisance rather than otherwise, and he should be
glad to see the office abolished. There was no such office
in connexion with the English Board.
Sir. W. SOMERVILLE said, that the cases of Eng-
land and Ireland were totally different. In England the
building of the workhouses was undertaken by the
boards of guardians themselves, who employed theirown
architects.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ARK WRIGHT moved as an amendment upon
the vote then under consideration, that instead of 13
inspectors—eight at 700/. a-year, and five at 500/. a-year
eacb, the number should be reduced to eight, viz., three
at 7001 a-year each, and five at 5001., making a total re-
duction of 3,5001.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND felt it to be his duty to
support the proposition, because wi'h the great diminu-
tion which had recently taken place in the value of pro-
perty, it was impossible that the existing taxation of the
country could be supported.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PRICE was aware that a strong opinion pre-
vailed in seine quarters in favour cf a considerable di-
minution of the Poor-law Board in London; but in his
opinion that board would be of little value, and would
but ill perform the functions for which it was ap-
pointed, if it were diminished in any considerabl degree..
Sir G. GREY said, that the Government originally
proposed that the number of inspectors should be 12, but
it was afterwards agreed by the House, UpOn the recom-
mendation of the Committee who investigated the sub-
ject, to leave the number to be fixed from time to time by
the Government according as they should see fit. He
hoped, therefore, that, without some better reason the
had yet been urged, that arrangement would not be
disturbed.—(Hear, hear.) The amendment had been
put upon the ground of economy; but he trusted that
some other branch of expenditure would be found to
exercise economy upon, rather than that the poor should
be deprived of the security they at present enjoyed for
the due administration of the law.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT could not consent to vote for the amend-
ment without some further information upon the subject.
13 inspectors were perhaps too many; but, on the other
hand, eight might be too few.—(Hear.)
Mr. BAINES said, that. Mr. Buller had, upon mature
consideration. come to the opinion that fewer than 13 in-
spectors would be insufficient, and his Own experience
fully confirmed that opinion.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was not disposed to support the
amendment, considering it necessary to have that efficient
inspection, the want of which had been a complaint
especially prominent in the Andover Union iuquiry.
There were, however, many items in this enormous esti-
mate which he thought objectionable. For example, he
wanted to know how many auditors there were, and in
what proportions the large item of 13,5001. was dis-
tributed among them.

Lord MAHON said the system to which the Hon.
Member for Sheffield referred still existed, but was
leniently almini,itered. Passports were required, but
were not often asked for: The Noble Lord, however, hail
not met the objection of the facility of evading the ex-
pense of obtaining Britila passports at the Foreign-office
under the present system.
Mr. HUME called a e attention of the Noble Lord to
tl,c charge of 22,0001. for Queen's messengers and extra
couriers. He thought, since the facilities of travelling
by railway had been afforded, that expense might b,
considerably reduced; though, certainly, his desire would
be to reduce the number of dispatches.—(Laughter.)
Lord PALMERSTON said, that both at home and
abroad considerable reductions had been recently made

Mr. BAINK'S could not exactly say at the moment
how many auditors there were, but the salaries varied
from 2501. to 500/. per annum. according to the districts.
The increase in the charge under this head, from 13,0301.
to 13,5001., was occasioned by the expense of advertising
the various audits.

The Committee divided; the numbers were—
For the amendment 36
. ......
Against it
Majority • --121
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY then moved that the vote,
salaries of auditors in England and Wales, be reduced
from 13,500/. to 5,500/. The smaller sum would furnish,
at 5501. per annum each, ten auditors, a number quite
sufficient for thoroughly efficient auditing.
Mr. BAINES considered that the auditors were not
at all overpaid. They received from 2501. to 500/. per
annum eaeh for services occupying a great portion of
the year, very laborious, and involving many questions
of a legal character that required for their settlement
considerable professional qualifications.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND wished, before they
came to a division on the vote, to have in detail the
amount of the salaries paid to the auditors.
Viscount EBAINGTON could not at that moment re-
collect the number of auditors--(Hear)---but as long as
he had had the honour of a Seat at the Poor-law Board
the number had remained the same.
Alderman SIDNEY said if the item of auditors was
postponed there would be no necessity for dividing the
House. The number of auditors for Ireland, with the
number of clerks and other minor employlis, were given,
but no account was given of the number of the recipients
of this 13,0001.; and if he received no better information
than had been given, he was afraid he must divide the
House.,
Mr. MILES approved of the office of auditors, but he
thought the amount of their salaries ought to be given:
Mr. HUME would vote for the striking out of this
item, ou the ground that each union ought to pay the
expense of its audit.—(oh.)
Alderman COPELAND said he would undertake to
get efficient persons to audit the accounts of the unions
for 801. a year.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. SLANEY and other Hon.
Members,
Mr. BUCK said it was the union charges that were
complained of universally.
found the names and services of the auditors set forth in
full. The averages of the salaries of the auditors was
Mr. BAINES said, on looking at the
2701., and the number about fifty. appendix, be
Alderman SIDNEY said be found the number cif
But
opposite.
Colonel at the
auditors for Ireland was six. If that number was:
sufficient fur Ireland, then fifty auditors were too many
for England.
ttehonotuhogifmha n
Mr. BRIGHT remarked the Hon. Member (Alderman
Copeland) had said he would get the accounts of each
union audited for 501. each.
number of unions, and the sumsnopo
retrenchment
gdtri
appearedvei
eh
ot
hhhmies asugpgpreograttteo,
he found that the cost to the country was not snore than
about 22/. per union.— (Laughter.) Now,
thingwas
a superfluous, flu willing
ou s, still i I lvohtee cfoourl dt h
hy
toerbaentdhoamt
omfottihoensusounc.hAalsdocremrtaaninolypp
Colonel SIB IHORr said Hon. Members opposite
gave a very singular support to her Majesty's Ministers
in that House on these questions, which contrasted very
oddly with their reform and retrenchment speeches on
the hustings.—(Hoar, Leir, and laughter.) But
wherever there was honey there would be
found bees or rather drones.—(Laughter.) The conduit
of Honourable Gentlemen opposite showed them to be as
far as the principles of economy were concerned, mere
shams and shadows. Every day he passed through the
streets of the metropolis he met persons who cautioned
him to bewa:e of the traps of the Free-traders, who
would, he hoped, some fine morning be caught in their
own traps.—(Laughter.)
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the vote ... 181
Against it ... ..• ... 56

Majority

-125

Mr. W. MILES ihedealled the attention of the Com-
mittee to the charge for schoolmasters and schoolmis-

TH E SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 28, lB5O.

tress, and inquired whether the system recommended
.
tri. 1846 was completely organized; whether a sufficient
number of persons had been appointed, and whether the
stun annually voted had been expended in the payment
ef their salaries? , z -
Mr. BAINES regretted that he was not in a position
to answer the questions of the Hon. Gentleman, as he •
had not given him notice of the questions. Great pains
had hem taken to increase the efficiency of the school-
masters and schoolmistres:;es,iind every opportunity had
been taken of making improvements in the schools.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND did not think the ex-
planation satisfactory, and felt it his duty to move that
the Chairman teport progress, and ask have to sit again.
Mr. LAW trusted the Hon. Gentleman would not di-
vide the Committee, became it might imply a censure of
the distinguished President of the Poor-law Board,
whose labours had been so highly appreciated.—(Hear,
hear.) If notice had been giv,n be was (mite sure the
Hon. Gentleman would have explained all the particulars,
as he had done on previous questions which had been put
to him.

Mr. MILES said his intention was not to object to the
vote, but to elicit some explanation. A sum of 35,0001.
for e lueating 56,000 children was most reasonable, and
he did nut think that any such sum could be more bene-
ficially applied.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND having withdrawn the
amendment, the vote waq agreed t
The next vote was 35,0001. to defray the expenses of
the MiLt.
Mr. TIIORNELY wished to know what had become
of ale fl.)rin—(Laught.,,r)—and also whether it was in-
teneei to make a new issue of threepenny pieces, which
were fuund so convenient to the retail trader?

Mr. SIIIEL said he had already sated the reason
why the issue of the florin had been suspended, and that
it aas intended to issue the coin in another shape with
the addition which public opinion appeared to require.
—(-fear, hear.) With respect to the smaller coin,
instructions had been given that a large quantity should
be coined.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND wished to call the at-
tention of the Government to a matter of great import-
ance to the trading portion of the community who
suffered severely from the circulation of base coin. It
was only last week that the solicitor to the Mint re,
fused to prosecute a person for uttering base coin, when
the magistrate thought proper to commit the party; and
he knew many cases in which individuals had been pro-
secuted to conviction by the City authorities when the
Mint had refused to proceed against them. This was a
power which ought not to be vested in the solicitor to
the Mint, and he trusted that the Attorney-General and
the Master of the Mint would turn their attention to the
subject.—(llear.)
Mr. FIUME wanted to know when the change recom-
mended in the Commission of last year would be car-
ried out?

Mr. SHIEL said that no time would be lost in making
the changes recommended by the Commissioners.
Mr. LAW said the grievance referred to by hie Hon.
Friend (Mr. Alderman Copeland) was well worthy the
consideration of the Government. The Mint was in a
different situation to other public bodies, so far as prose-
cutions were concerned. Although a magistrate might
recommend a prosecution, the Mint might prosecute or
not as they thought proper; and if, when they did pro-
secute, the expenses of the witnesses should be disallowed
by the court, the Mint authorities could pay them out of
a Government fund.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the practice was,
that no Mint prosecutions should be instituted without
the depositions being laid before the Attorney-General,
and without the sanction of the Attorney General, and
in all cases where penalties were inflicted the prosecu-
tions were instituted under the authority of the board.
Mr. LAW said his remark applied to ordinary cases of
misdemeanour.

Mr. SHELL said that all the business of that kind had
been transferred to the Solicitor to the Treasury, assisted
by Mr. Powell.
Alderman SIDNEY called the attention of the House
to the case of a noted "smasher" brought before Mr.
Alderman Farebrother on Saturday, in which the soli-
citor of the Mint declined to prosecute, and withheld
evidence, but ultimately consented to do so on the ma-
gistrate committing the man. Ile hoped the Govern-
ment would not continue to connive, through their officers,
at the escape of persons detected in passing bad money.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Govern-
ment did not connive —it only hesitated to bring its
weight to bear when there was no decided chance of
a conviction. It was, however, competent for the ma-
gistrate to commit them, and the parties aggrieved to
prosecute.

Alderman COPELAND complained of the power
vested in the solicitor of the Mint in the matter of such
prosecutions.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE alluded to the inconvenience and
expense entailed upon counties by the course taken in
regard to persons accused cf passing bad money by the
authorities of the Mint.

The vote was then agreed to.
12,6781., for the care and arrangement of the public re-
cords, keepers' salaries, &c.
Mr. A. HOPE protested against the vote, on the
ground that their condition was not satisfactory. Some
of them were kept in the Chapter House of Westminster,
others in the Tower of London, others in the riding-
house at Carlton-ride, while the building erected for the
purpose was wholly insufficient. There was a fire-proof
chest in every parish church in England; but on the
Carlton-ride a policeman was kept as the only preserva-
tive against tire. It was a disgrace to the country. He
should not, however, divide the House on the subject.
The CHA.NCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER had
stated ct an early period of the session that it was his
intention to ask a vote to erect a building for keeping
the records on the Crown estate. He trusted, there-
fore, that the House would agree to the ♦ote then
before it.

Colonel SIBTFIORP said the records were at present
in a worse state than they were forty years since.
The vote was agreed to after a few words from Mr.
HUME and Mr. F. MAUL&

10,9941. for the salaries and expenses of tho inspectors
of factories.

Mr. HUME said the vote was a reflection thrown
upon manufacturers, and he hoped it would soon be
dispensed with altogether.
Mr. BRIG KT said, whenever there was a Home Se-
cretary appointed, a near relative of his was commonly
sent down into Lancashire as an Inspector of factories,
who was generally ignorant of the subject be was sent
down to superintend. Such places should not be so dis-
posed of. It was not satisfsetory.
Sir G. GREY said, only one place had fallen in dur-
ing his tenure of office, and he had consolidated it with
another, so as to make one person perform the duties of
both.

Lord J. MANNERS considered that inspectors of
factories were a great advantage to the working classes.
The vote was then agreed to.
1,6101., salaries of certain officers in Scotland.—
Agreed to.
6,4641., salaries of officers in the household of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland.—Agreed to.
24,2501., salaries and expenses in the office of the
Chief Secretary of Ireland.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said there was an item of 2,7011.
for contingencies, which he thought required some ex-
planation.
Sir G. GREY said it was almost impossible to state
those contingencies in detail.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the items were all
specified in the appendix of the report last year.
Major BERESFORD thought that 3,0001. was a large
sum for contingencies in such an office as that of the
Chief Secretary of Ireland. The contingencies in the
Home Secretary's office were last year only 1,8641.
Colonel SIBTHORP observed that the salary of the
Chief Secretary was 5,5001. He thought it ought to
be reduced, and begged to move that 5001. be struck off.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... .. 41
Against it ... ... 156
Majority „.. _ll5
The vote was accordingly agreed to, as also was the
following, viz.:-
5,464/. charges and expenses of the office of the Pay-
master of the Civil Service in Ireland.

The CHAIRMAN then reporTedprogresa, and ob-
tained leave to sit again.

COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this
Bill,

The SOLICITOR•GENERAL proposed the insertion
of 'a clause giving compensation to officers of the court
after twenty years' service—the compenpation not to ex-
ceed two-thirds of their annual salary.
The clause was agreed to, and the Bill was read a
third time and passed.
The third reading of the Election. (Ireland) Bill was
postponed after a short discussion.
The Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Bill and other
Bills were postponed.
The Metropolitan Interments Bill was committed pro
forma, and reported, with amendments.

The Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill was read a second
time; and the Mur.icipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill was
understood to paws through Committee.
The Vestries and Vestry Clerks Bill was passed
through Committee and ordered to be reprinted.
ACTS OF PARLIAMENT ABBREVIATION BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill, .
Mr. STANFORD rose and said, that though he con-
sidered this altogether an unobjectionable measure, he
hoped the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General would
consent to its being referred to a Select Committee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Bill had come
down from the House of Lords, and he could not, there-
fore, consent to the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman.
The Bill was then passed through Committee and re-
ported to the House.
COURT. OF PREROGATIVE (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of .-Mr. KEOGH, this Bill was read a
second tilllQ, and oriered to be referred to a Select Cosa
mitte

LITERAT URE.

RAYMOND I?EVILLOFD. By Grace Webster.

2 Vols.

A multitude of complicated incidents and marvel-
lous adventures fill the pages of this novel. It the
incidents are not of the most pleasing, and the adven-
tures not of the most probable character possible,
he combination may nevertheless hive attractions for
hose who, in works of fiction, prefer the startling and
;he " full of variety" to the natural and the truthful.

CHAMBERS' PAPERS FOR THE PEOPLE.
Equally attractive without as it is excellent within,
a little volume, in an amber-coloured binding, and
containing eight articles of an instructive and inte-
resting character, has made its appearance, entitled,
" Chambers' Papers for the People," and it is likely
to share the fate of all Messrs. Chambers' publicationq,
namely, to be greatly admired and generally read.
Among the articles in this first volume of the new
series are, " Ebenezer Elliott," " Leaves from the
Journal of a French Physician," " Education of the
Citizens," " Popular Cultivation of Music," " The
Bonaparte Family," and others.