The Sun.
London, England, 1868-11-14 00:00:00

LORD STANLEY ON IRELAND.

The most interesting portion of Lora btanley's speech at
King's Lynn was that in which be dealt with Ireland.
Said he : First, let me say that I think no one can doubt

that a great improvement has taken place during the last

twelve months. Fenianism in Ireland may still exist. I
do not doubt that it exists as a sentiment in some districts,
but as an active organisation, speaking my own
individual opinion, I do not now consider it dangerous.

Whatever the grievances which the Irish themselves
put forward, they fall under three heads—nationality,
lancVand religion. Now, the desire for separate nationality
is not one which I wish to treat with ridicule. I believe
that the feeling and desire for a separate nationality
is a feeling that will die out. The land grievance, which
is the next branch of the subject I take, seems
to me to have a more definite origin. In the last
century the custom in Ireland was for landlords to let out
their estates for very long terms, and without
conditions for preventing sub-tenancies and sub-
divisions. The result of this system was, that the
tenant found it his interest to create sub-tenancies, and
to bring upon the land as great a number of peasant
families as he could possibly find room for. His interest
in an estate was not perpetual, and he did not care what
happened in the remote future, while the landlord, who
had a reversionary interest, was tied by the laws which
prevailed, and was unable to interfere. The general result
was, that instead of the well-paid and thriving tenantry
whom you have in England, a tenantry has been
created in Ireland a large number of whom approach a
condition of pauperism. Another result has been that
sub-division of holdings has been carried so far as
to make effectiye agricultural improvement almost
impossible. The landlords are gradually getting back
to a sounder economical condition of things in Ireland by
a reduction in the number of holdings and by a corre-
sponding decrease in their size. This process, I don't
care to deny, is, as a rule, unpopular with the peasantry,
who, if left to themselves, would continue the process of
sub-division indefinitely, and it is upon that point that
the whole controversy really turns. Now, I think a great
deal depends upon Parliament taking a rational view of
the subject. In Ireland small holdings mean exclusive
reliance upon the potato—the potato crop is always liable
to failure, and failure under these circumstances means
famine. My objection to proposals like those lately put
forward by Mr. Mill, and in a more modified form by Mr.
Bright—proposals the object of which is to put out the
landlord and give the tenant a perpetual holding—is not
that they are revolutionary (I am not frightened at the
word if the thing is necessary), but it is my firm con-
viction that they would be ruinous to the very people
whom they are intended to benefit. Take away the check
upon subdivision which the existence of the landlord
produces, and within two generations you would have a
population living upon the soil double in number, without
a corresponding increase in the means of subsistence—in
other words, you would have 8,000,000. or 10,000,000
people living in a state of rags, beggary, hunger, and
discontent such as does not exist in any other part of
Europe. This, to my mind, is retrogression, not progress,
and as such I oppose it. As to a tenant-right bill,
giving a tenant compensation for permanent improve.
ments which he may make, I should support it, although
I do not attach the importance to it which Irish writers
and speakers habitually do. I believe such matters may
be in general very well settled by private arrangement. I
know also that many of those who swell that cry for
tenant-right do so in order to attain perpetuity of tenure.
Still, the principle of tenant-right is just; the only diffi-
culty lies in the details. As to the condition of Ireland, I
do not think you ought to judge of it by election
rp3eches or local newspaper writing-. My recollec-
tion of that country extends over twenty-five
years, and I am convinced that, however much there
may still be to do, there is no part of the British Islands
in which the comparative progress made has been more
rapid. I do not certainly say that the condition of the
Irish peasant is all that you can wish, but I do say that,
comparing his present state -with his state in the time of
Sir Robert Peel's Government, he is now better paid,
better housed, better clothed, better fed, and better
taught. Now I come to IN hat is called the religious
question as it affects Ireland. It is a very difficult subject,
but I will try and speak plainly upon it. In the first
place, I would ask you to dismiss from your minds the
fallacy that the religious differences of Ireland have
exclusive reference to the question of the Established
Church. That is a very simple way of looking at the
matter, but it is the reverse of accurate. Suppose—
although it won't happen—that the disestablishment
and disendowment of the Irish Church were to take
place next year, do you think that all differences be.
tween the Irish Protestants and the Irish Catholics would
be removed by that means? Why, the very next day
you would have the question of education arise, in which the
Catholics would be found on one side and the English Liberals
on the other ; and when this question was disposed of you
would have half a dozen more. The grievance lies deeper
You have in Great Britain a State which, taking it as a
-whole, is essentially Protestant. Ido not use the word in
any narrow or sectarian sense, but I say that Great
Britain, considered in its influence on the mind ant.
thought of the world, is essentially Protestant in its ideas
and institutions. That is a fact which statesmen did not

create, and which statesmen cannot alter. You have, on
the other band, in Ireland 4,500,000 of the most ardent
and devoted Catholics to be found in Europe. While
the great difference which exists between them and the
Protestants still continues—until it shall have been
softened by time, by education, and by the gradual growth
of a kindlier feeling—l am afraid you must expect
what I may call, to use the mildest term, a state of
imperfect sympathy between the Catholics and Protestants
of Ireland. I will take only one illustration of what I
mean. You all recollect the reception given in London
to General Garibaldi as the great opponent of the temporal
power of the Pope. lam not expressing any opinion upon
that reception ; I only recall it as a fact ; and I well recol•
lect that in Ireland it produced all over the country an
explosion of indignation and resentment. I was not sure
prised at the fact ; but I ask you, how would the removal
of the Irish Establishment, if an incident like what I
have mentioned occurred, prevent the feeling of the Irish
people being what it was with regard to it? It is said
that if you get rid of the Irish Establishment you will at
once see a kindlier feeling between the Protestant land.
lords and the Catholic tenants. Well, will you?
I think the feeling will be the other way. I think that
when the Protestant owner of the soil finds himself
charged with the whole burthen of the support of the
Protestant Church, he would most likely look out for a
Protestant instead of a Catholic tenant to help him in
bearing the expense ; at any rate, he would most likely
say to his Catholic tenant, "If you want Catholic schools,
and assistance for a Catholic chapel, you must not look
to me ; I have got my own institutions to support, and I
can give you nothing." I therefore fear that the brilliant
notion of making Ireland of one mind upon religious
matters by disendowing the Irish Establishment is not
warranted in fact, and I fear that if the thing
were done the result would be the other way. You
would produce among the 500,000 Protestants a feeling of
bitter humiliation and resentment ; and I am afraid
at the same time that the satisfaction of the vio-
-1 torious party would only last as long as no subject of
dispute turned up, and that probably would not be for
twelve months. The first thing which the new Parlia-
ment will have to decide is the question who is to be
responsible for the conduct of the national affairs. If the
verdict goes in our favour we must try our hands, and 3
think the language held by various members of the pre-
sent Government is sufficient gitarantee that the present
Administration will do nothing of which Irish Protestants
I will have reasonable ground to complain. If we are
displaced—and I don't want to conceal the fact that
some people are sanguine enough to expect it —we
must wait and see what is proposed by those who will
then have the initiation of affairs. In any case it is pro-
bable that the Irish Church contest will be a long one ; it
will not end next year or the year after, and it is not very
easy to predict the precise form it will assume. My view
of the matter is a very simple one. lam for reform, not
for destruction. There is a very wide difference between
the two. I cannot go back from what I have said in
public before and from what I think. I see in the Irish
Church various things which are not defensible. I see also
that those things are capable of amendment. I look to the
position of the Protestants of Ireland. Theirs is a position
which deserves at our hands the greatest consideration.
England has placed them where they are, and England
has made them what they are. They have the prescrip-
tion of three centuries in their favour. Their loyalty has
been tested in times of disaffection. They deserve, I
think, not only justice, but generous treatment at our
hands, and I for one will do all I fairly and honestly can
to maintain their interests and their rights.

DANCING PROHIBITED.—Bishop Duggan has pro-
hibited dancing of any kind in the Catholic diocese of
Chicago during fairs or bazaars held for charitable
purposes.

MR. REVERDY JOHNSON AND THE AMERICAN
PRESS.—The New York Round Table says : " Some of the
newspapers have been working themselves into a state of
excitement because Mr. Reverdy Johnson, our new
Minister to England, is behaving himself like a courteous
gentleman there,. and a statesman who has gone to get
things done, not to get them refused, and because he does
not write letters and make speeches about the people
among whom he is a sojourner, like the 'anti-English'
diatribes of the Eveninq Pose or the not froth.
ings of George Francis Train. Surely we have had enough
and to spare of the Pogram and Jefferson Brick business,
whether from the Nation or from papers less respectable."