The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY

understand where they ought to give. He was not one ,
who grudged adequater ayaient to the hard-working
t-ervant. Sinecures were another affair. The Hon.
Baronet the Member for Marylehoue had put his finger
on a remarkable item. He hoped he should have the
support of those great economists when he cline to deal
with sinecure 3, as he proposed to do. With reference to
the motion before them, he had a curious return relating
to the several establishments in the public service. The
highest was the Treasury. At present 37 persons were
employed in managing the affairs of the Treasury. It
appeared that the average age at which per-
sees began service in the Treasury was twenty
years. Every man of business knew that a
gig at deal had to be learned as to the mere
business of the office, however instructed a person
might enter it in other respects. If a man possessing
the highest university honours were placed in the office,
be would be as a child as regarded the business to be
done. He would go there as a learner or student in the
public service. He entered at the age of 20, with a sa-
lary of 901. a year. He must be there two years before
any rise oF salary can be granted. At present the clerks
in the Treasury were divided into four classes. The
salaries of the first class were from 901. to 1001. a-year;
on an average a clerk would be 32 before he obtained
2001. a-year. The salaries of the second class were from
100!. to 500/.; on an average a clerk would be 50 before
he got his 500/. a-year. The question was,
were these gentlemen fir they were gentle-
melt overpaid? The salaries of the third class
were from 5001. to 8001. a-year. The last class are those
with salaries of 1,000/. a-year; but before that salary
could be obtained, the age of 59 must have been reached.
—(I-lear, hear.) He was talking of the ordinary work-
ing men—not of those with political influence to push
them on.—(Hear, hear.) Now, looking to the habits
of this country—for
they mustlook to habits—looking
to what a man must go through before he could fit
himself for the office, and looking to the po-
sition he must hold in a great town like
London, where he had to meet others is the
position of gentlemen—was it to be said that a
man was overpaid who, at 60. found himself at the
highest salary in a public office of 1,0001. a year?—
(Hear, hear.) Would any man who had devoted his
years to the law think himself overpaid at 60 by obtain-
ing 1,000/. a year?—(Hear.) Then let them consider
the position of the clerk. From day to day his family
depended on his being able to perform his duty in his
office. In dealing with such men it was only fair to take
into account the ordinary exigencies of society. Was it
to be said that the State should be niggardly to such
men, when, if they had adopted a mercantile life, they
would have been better paid?—(An Hon. Member—
" No."] An Hon. Gentleman said, no. Why, let them
take any large mercantile establishment. Let them take
the Bank of England. It appeared that the cashier had
1,400/. a )el,r, with a free residence; the assistant
cashier, 1,000/.; the accountant, 1.200/.; and the as-
sistant-accountant, 9701. a year. There was no niggard-
liness either in the disposition of the East India Company
with respect to the payment of their servants.—(Hear.)
Those servants were well paid, but they were efficient
men, who worked well. and, considering the nature of
their duties and the offices they filled, they were not
overpaid. But making all these admissions, knowing
the policy of Government, and maintaining, as he did,
that all those who rendered good service to the State
ought to be well paid, he would ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Administration whether it would not be
wise to disabuse the public mind of an erroneous impres-
sion which might be made upon it by his opposition to
the present motion to have a full and complete inquiry
into that subject—not for the purpose of passing a slur
on the Government, for it could not be impeached upon
that occasion, being only in the position of other Go-
vernments? There had been an opposition got up
against the present Administration such as few other
Administrations had been pressed with. It was an op-
position of an anomalous character. The peculiar fea-
tures of the present opposition were, that by legislation
on the subject of our commercial policy, that protection
which was formerly given to the productions of the
earth had been taken away, and therefore Gentle-
men on that (the Opposition) side of the House had
been euddenly smitten with an extraordinary love of
economy.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Those
Honourable Gentlemen found, and he was delighted to
observe it, that the system which had so long prevailed
ought to be discontinued, and then said that as there
was no protection for them there should no longer be
protection for anybody else.—(Hear, and laughter.)
But the people of England were a generous people, and
he would try the question in the way in which the House
was called upon to try it in the case of the hard-working
men in our public offices.—(Hear, hear.) Men in high
stations were generally working men. The Honourable
Gentlemen on the Treasury benches at the opposite side
of the House received what were called large salaries.
He did not think these gentlemen were overpaid,
although it might be considered an unpopular sentiment
to give 'utterance to. He had heard it stated that the
heads of many departments of the public service were
overpaid. He confessed ho did not think such was the
case. Then, if they were not—if neither the heads
were overpaid, nor the subordinates overpaid, it could
only be in the number of persons employed that the al-
leged extravagance existed, and the required reductions
made. He thought the Noble Lord would do well, there-
fore, in permitting that inquiry to take place. The Go-
vernment had an interest in that in which the interests of
the country were concerned; and therefore he consi-
dered it would have been better for the Government not
to have resisted the motion. When, therefore, he and
his friend the Hon. Member for Montrose went out into

(Hoar, hear.) His Hon. Friend had addressed the House
with no party ,ioirit or part: purpose, and his object was
not, as intimated by the Cherie&llor of the Exchequer,
to pass a vote of censure on the Ministry.—(dear, hear.)
So determined, however, was the Right. Hon. Gentlecoau
to prevent the full discussion of opinion on the subject,
that ho had charged the H )n. Member for Oxford with
making an attack upon the Government. He (Mr. New-
deate) had vet to learn that a Government had the
right to to forbid an expression of opinion upon a quee-
tion of expenditu se, and still less had her Majeety'e
Government a right to preclude discussion on the pre-
sent occasion, as they themselves had, by the appointment
of a Ceminittse, admitsed that inquiry into the public ex-
penditiro was necessary and expedient. It did not
follow by any means that because the Chancellor
of the Exchequer had instanced cases of the St. Kathe-
rine Docks Company and the Great Western Railway
Company, who had been imprudent, that the House of
Commons was not to inquire into the expenditure of the
country, or advise her Majesty's Government upon the
course which they considered it most desirable to adopt.
—(Hear, hear.) Those corporations were altogether
alien to the subject-matter of the present motion. The
object of his Hon. Friend was not to discharge the pub-
lic servants engaged in the various departments of the
Government, nor was it even by implication to cat cen-
sure upon the Ministry, but it simply amounted to this,
that inasmuch as we had arrived at an epoch in our
commercial policy which had caused a decline in the
value of all the necessaries of life, all opportunity was
afforded thereby for a revision of salaries, and for an
inquiry into the remuneration of the labour of the
public servants. He could show the House, by reference
to circumstances which had taken place in years
gone by, that the present proceeding was net
without precedent. He would allude to periods sub-
sequent to 1793—the period chosen by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer—and he could show that, in the year
1801, the salaries of the artizens employed in the Ord-
nance-office had been increased, under the sanction of
Mr. Pitt, in consequence of the high price of food and
the necessaries of life. At that period it was proposed
to increase the salary of a Mr. Rose, but he, to his
credit be it said, declined to receive it, on the ground
that he had other sources of employment and did not
require it.—(Hear, hear.) He could also state that, in
1810, the Excise officers of Edinburgh had memorialised
the Treasury for an increase of salary, and that, in 1812,
the Commissioners of Excise had petitioned for an in.
crease of the salaries of their department, and that Lord
Liverpool, who was then in office, granted the applica-
tion, on the ground that inasmuch as food and all the
necessaries of life had become exceedingly dear, it was
just and reasonable to increase the salaries of the
public servants. He had alluded to those cases, because
he considered them important, and applicable to the
point under consideration. The reduction in prices that
had recently taken place operated to the advantage of
the recipient of fixed money incomes. A reduction of
25 per cent. on an article like 100 sacks of wheat, worth,
say 1001., was an advantage to the owner of the salary
equal not merely to one-fourth, but to one-third of the
whole cost. The low rate of wheat had been adverted
to by his Hon. Friend as a proof of prosperity. Great
delusions had taken place on that subject. The lowness
of the rate of interest arose from the fluctuations in our
commercial and monetary regulations. The money
market was often glutted because the investing parties
had no profitable means of employing their capital. He
rejoiced that his Hon. Friend, who introduced the mo-
tion, had shown beyond a doubt, that if Government had
the will they could effect very great reductions in the
salaries of the public departments, for, as he had pointed
out, those salaries exceeded the amount paid for the
army and navy services. That being the case,
he would recommend to the Honourable Mem-
ber for the West Riding (Mr. Cobden), when
he next addressed parties out of that House, to tell
those parties that there was another way of practising
economy than by reducing and weakening the defences
of the country, and that he would not venture to affirm,
as he had been doing, that there was no other mode by
which economy could be practised than by reducing
those establishments. His Honourable Friend had
shown that Government had a sum of seven millions and
a half with which they could deal, the whole of which
was paid to parties resident in this country, who wore
deriving the full benefit of the reduction in the prices,
and in respect of whom reductions could be made in
consequence. In the pay of the soldier they could not
make reductions, for more than half of his life was passed
in foreign countries, where ho was denied the advantage
from the reduction of prices in this country. Should
they deal with the consular establishments, they were
in the same situation ; but, taking into considera-
tion the whole question, he would leave it to
the country to decide who were the true poli-
tical economists. Was it his lion. Friend who recom-
mended that a per-tentage, equal to half the advantages
which the holders of those salaries were deriving from
the reduction of prices, should be taken off the salaries;
or was it those who, like the Hon. Member for the West
Riding, proposed to adopt the expenditure of a year
long past, without at all considering the altered circum-
stances of the then state of things and the present? To
his mind there could be no doubt as to which of the two
parties were operating in the right direction. The one
adopted the expenditure of 1835 as the Shibboleth of a
movement, and as the basis of an agitation, in order that
by means of it they might get introduced into that
House motions which they were sure the common sense
of the Members of the House would not allow them to
support, and then to go forth and hold up to the ridicule
of inflated mobs the men who opposed their foolish
motions; but who were, in `act, contending for reduc-
tions in the expenditure in the only competent and just
ground on which it could be granted. The other party
were those who demanded those reductions in the man-
ner he had just stated, and as those demands were just
he hoped the House would show on that occasion that it
would respond to them.
After a lapse of a short time strangers were ordered
to withdraw, but
Mr. HUME at length rose, and said that he considered
the motion of the Hon. Member for Oxfordshire one of
a practical and useful nature. With respect to the Com-
mittee appointed ,by the Noble Lord, he did not think
anything useful would result from the proposed inquiry,
which was limited to three branches of the service, and
on which the Government possessed all the necessary in-
formation. The Noble Lord was well aware of the du-
ties of the officers appointed by the Crown, and nothing
but the will was wanting to carry out such reductions as
he might think necessary. What was the proposition of
the Noble Lord ? A Committee " to inquire into the
salaries and emoluments of offices held during the plea-
sure of the Crown by Members of either House of Par-
liament, voted in the annual estimates; and also into
the salaries and emoluments of judicial officers in the
superior courts of law and equity in the United King-
dom, and into the retiring pensions allotted to the judges;
and also into the expense of diplomatic establishments
charged on the Consolidated Fund." He (Mr. Hume)
thought the inquiry ought to be extended to other
branches; and he should have advised the Noble Lord
to adopt the motion of the lion. Gentleman in deference
to public opinion.—(Hear.) He did not think much re-
duction could be made in the salaries of the clerks, but
he was of opinion that their number might be consider-
ably diminished. The country would not rest satisfied
unless further inquiry was instituted. But after the
speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not
think that any one could expect to see the inquiry ex-
tended.
Lord J. RUSSELL—It is now going on.
Mr. HUME was aware of that, but he wished a re.
vision of all departments. Not that ho was disposed to
refuse adequate salaries. Quite the contrary. He
would willingly increase salaries and pay of all kinds,
provided they could get rid of the enormous amount ex-
pended in pensions and half-pay. To say that all ealaries
should be reduced to a certain ext let would not be fair.
He was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
should have alluded to the parish of Marylebone. A
more unfortunate instance could not have been referred
to. He had himself spent three Saturdays in investi-
gating their accounts. The auditors compared the ex-
penditure of fifteen different parishes, and it appeared
that Marylebone was the most extravagant of them all.
—(Hear, hear.) The object of the present motion was
inquiry. No injustice was contemplated by it, nor
any reduction that would impair the public service.
What objection, then, could be urged against it of any
weight? He was ready to support any proposal likely
to be beneficial for the country. He did not think the
motion attributed any blame to the Government, and he
should vote for it without intending to !Impute such
blame. He regretted the Government should have ob-
jected to the motion, because an impression would goferth
that they were not desirous of inquiry. He thought the
Noble Lord should have followed the example which he
himself gave in 1830, when he obtained the appointment
of a Committee to inquire into the salaries of heads of
offices. The reductions that had recently been made in
the Customs had worked well. If a partial revision had
produced beneficial results, a general revision would pro-
duce much greater. They might deal with the whole
revenue, excepting the parts of it allotted to payment of
the interest of the national debt and the civil list.—
(Hear, hear.) He had no desire to touch the civil list.
The readiness with which her Majesty had come forward
with the proposal that her income should be made liable
for the income-tax ought not to be forgotten.—(Hear.)
He hoped the House would not consider this a party
vote. They were there as trustees of the public purse,
and it was their duty to promote economy. He should
vote for the motion.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished, in a few words, to explain
the principle on which he should vote. He intended to
vote for the motion, though he thought it a most use-
less one—a motion, in fact, almost without meaning,
yet he intended to vote for it.—(Hear, hear.) The
Chancellor of the Exchequer had, he understood, moved
the previous question ; but he would have done the mo-
tion greater injury if he had dealt with it otherwise. If
the Right Honourable Gentleman had acceded to the
motion—a motion which had been brought forward for
a purpose—of which the meaning was not in its words,
but in its intent, and which could not effect what its
mover intended—if the Right Honourable Gentleman
had acceded to such a motion, he would have gained the
popularity-of being:an economist by consenting to a mere
truism.—(Hear, hear.) Let them understand the pro-
position, for he liked to deal with gentlemen fired with
this new-born zeal for economy. It was for a humble
address to her Majesty, praying for a careful revi-
sion of the salaries and wages paid in every depart-
ment of the public service, with a view to ade-
quate reductions therein.—(Hear, hear.) But that
was not all; there was a guarding clause—" duo regard
being had to the efficient performance of the several
duties." Was not this precisely the rule on which Mi-
nisters of the Crown had always acted ? The Noble
Lord might have accepted a proposition so qualified
without any hesitation. He wished to know who the
parties were whose salaries it was proposed to revise?
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
the fact of more persons being employed than was ne-
cessary would be a reason for inquiry. But a great
farce was being played before the country as to the re-
ameratiolz of their publio oervuuts, WIN,' ought to

the lobbies upon that division, they were not voting in
opposition to the present Government, but merely f .)r an
inquiry as to whether the service of the Stets was per-
formed at a rate which the State ought not to pay. He
again reiterated his impression that the Government
ought not to have resisted an inquiry into that matter.
Why should not an inquiry take place now? Why
should they have such a subterfuge with respect to it
as the moving of the previous question? The Noble
Lord conceived that the present was an inconvenient
time for such an inquiry (" No, no," from the Govern-
ment benches.) He should read the ordinary forms of
the House in the manner in which they were generally
taken. It was said that this was not the
proper time to entertain the subject, when the
previous question was moved in answer to
the motion before them. Now he would like
to know could there be a better time than the present to
entertain the subject before them? In what state was
the country? It was in circumstances of varied transi-
tions--with a new commercial policy instituted, and the
prices of the ordinary necessaries of life greatly fallen.—
(Hear.) No man could expect anything on the part of
the country but an acquiescence in the determinations of
that House.—(Hear, hear.) He could conceive, then,
no combination of circumstances more favourable than
the present for such an inquiry, nor could he fancy any-
thing more impolitic than the opposition offered on the
part of the Government to that motion. He believed
the people of this country would be most generous in
their payment of their deserving public servants, if only
made aware that good and efficient services had been
rendered.—(Clear, hear.) He did not think there was
one intelligent working man in the empire, who got his
bread by the labour of his own hands, who would not
aid the Noble Lord at the head of the Government iu
paying those who did efficient service for the State.
He
would oppose the motion of the Government by which
that question would be avoided, because he thought the
people of this country had a right to have that question
settled now.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL and some other Hon. Members rose to-
gether. There were loud calls for the former, and the
rest having given way, the Right Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to say that he agreed with so much of what had
Men from the Hon. and Lea-ned Member who had just
addressed the House, but particularly with regard to the
services of those occupying subordinate places in the
offices of the state, and the obligation due from the pub-
lic to them for the fidelity and integrity with which their
service were performed, that he was surprised, agreeing
with so much that had been said, he should come to a
different conclusion from that at which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had arrived.—(Hear, hear.) He
(Sir R. Peel), however, put a different construction on
the intention of the motion of the Honourable Member
fur Oxfordshire, and the manner in which it had been
met, namely, by moving the previous question, from that
construction put upon them by the Hon. and Learned
Member who had just spoken. Ho did not understand
the Honourable Member's motion as one asserting that
an inquiry should be instituted into the salaries of all
the chief offices of the State—into the diplomatic and
judicial departments of the country. Ho did not
think the Hon. Gentleman's object was to lead to a Par-
liamentary investigation into those matters ; but he
rather inferred that the Hon. Gentleman's resolution
went to impose on the Government that duty sought to
be imposed on it by the motion introduced a short time
since by the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr.
Disraeli), that the Government should be the party to
make the necessary reductions, and to introduce a
scheme for that purpose to the House, showing where
reductions were possible. (Hear.) The Hon. and
Learned Member who last addressed the House said that
the motion embodied a truism, and, therefore, ought to
ho agreed to. Now he (Sir R. Peel) apprehended that
a great many truisms had been introduced from time to
time int() that House which ought not to be acquiesced
in.—(Hear, and laughter.) If the doctrine of the Hon,
and Learned Gentleman were correct, every motion
which implied a truism ought to be assented to. Now
he (Sir R. Peel) thought the House of Commons ought
not to vote for truisms unless they had a practical effect.
—(Hear.) He considered the justification of the present
resolution interfered with the ordinary functions of the
Executive Government, and it ought not, therefore, to be
agreed to, unless founded upon some act done, or was
calculated to effect some direct object. He did not think
the motion was brought forward in a bona fide spirit, and
that it was calculated to tend to the impression that
great reductions could be made in the salaries of public
officers without retrenching those which were not suffi-
ciently paid. It was became he could not continue that
delusion that he voted as be intended to do. What he
said wa., let every inquiry be made by those authorities
entitled to do so. When, therefore, he voted for the
previous question, he did not mean to convey that the
present was not a proper time to consider what reduction
might be made in every department of the public service.
The Hon. Gentleman, in alluding to a speech of his
in 1845, did not correctly state the substance of what
had been quoted as his observations. He (Sir R. Peel)
had not laid down the position that unless the great naval
and military establishments were reduced, no diminution
could take place in the public expenditure. He had
said that there was a general impression, that on the
whole of the expenditure there could be a reduction.
—(Hear, hear.) That expenditure had amounted to
48,000,000/ • but it was a great delusion on the part
of the public to suppose that a reduction could
take place to the extent that bad been mentioned.
He had stated that the necessary expenditure amounted
to 35,000,0001., and that the utmost that could be dealt
with was 13,000,000/. Ho had not implied that any re-
' thlOtiOn could be lamb in the oiyil establiohments. die

tailing the salaries of those servants. What he objected
to in the motion of the Hon. Member was, that the mo-

had said that he thought it would be an erroneous ex- t
pectation on the part of the public if they were led to
suppose that any great relief could be afforded from a
reduction of the salaries in question. With respect to
the changes made in the excise duties, the duties on
glass, acid the auction duties, it had been said that the
expectations he had suggested had not been falfilled.
He begged to say he thought that his anticipations in
these matters had been to a great extent borne out, for
the abolition of the glass duties and auction duties had
enabled them to effsct a considerable saving in their
establishments. By a return made in 1846 it would be
found that every anticipation which he had entertained
had been fulfilled. He had stated that he thought the
reduction of those duties would afford a great oppor-
tunity of diminishing the establishments which they
were then obliged to keep up. And what was the result?
Why, no less than 450 persons had been discontinued
in the particular departments alluded to, and a
saving of no less than 52,0001. had been effected
for the country. That did not show that the expecta-
tions which he had held out were not fulfilled. That
the Government desired to maintain those offices alluded
to for the purpose of patronage he thought was as en-
tirely unfounded as it was unjust to accuse them of keep•
ing up the army and navy in order to find places for the
younger branches of the nobility. So far from wishing
to increase the expense: of the Treasury department, he
thought every Chancellor of the Exchequer would be
most anxious to make as many reductions as he could.
Having heard of the amouut of the relief voluntarily
made by the Government. and having had proof of their
desire to carry out all fair retrenchments, he did not de-
sire to imply the sort of reflection upon them which
that motion would be likely to cast. He thought the
Government had given proofs of their desire to reduce
every expense which might be reduced. The present
motion had no reference to the salaries of great offices.
He could confirm from long personal experience all
that had been said in justincation and approbation of the
conduct of those who filled the offices of Government
in the public department of the State. He would
ask the House to look to the changes which took
place with respect to those public departments. Suppose
a new Government came into power, how much must
they not depend, for a certain time, on the knowledge
and experience of those who filled responsible situations
in public offices?—(Hear, hear.) Let them take the
case, for instance, of the late Mr. Brookbanks.—(Hear.)
Did not every Chancellor of the Exchequer who had
ever come into office know how much he ought to rely
on the experience and knowledge of a gentleman like
that?—(Hear.) Let them go through all the public
offices—it would be found to be the same. An Hon.
Gentleman had said that the rule now of all the public
offices was increased work and diminished pay. And
certainly if the number of papers now passing through
the Treasury were compared with that of twenty years
since, it would be admitted that the duties there had
more than doubled. It had been said that the officials
there did not work enough—that they did nothing
at night ; and several allegations of that kind
had been made. He would ask the Noble Lord
the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether the ser-
vices of the gentlemen in the public departments
with which he was conversant were not always
available at all hours, and whether they had not always
cheerfully given their assistance whenever called upon
by their superiors.—(Hear, hear.) What was the posi-
tion in that public( department? A young man was
placed there for two or three years on a small salary,
not calculated to meet his expenses, and after some years
of service he received an allowance of 2001. per annum.
Now it was not the amount of labour which was to be
considered so much as the amount of trust reposed in
those parties.—(Hear, hear.). The Secretaries of State
could not discharge their duties without entrusting most
important state secrets to many individuals not in the pos-
session of more than 5001 a year.—(Hear.) It was
not, then, the quantity of labour that was to be borne in
remembrance so much as the great extent of honourable
confidence reposed in such men—(Hear, hear)—and
he thought it would be most injurious to the
public interests of the country to undervalue or
underrate the services of those who, if they
had not the fortunes had at least the feelings of
gentlemen. For his part, he had great pleasure in bear-
ing his testimony to the efficiency and fidelity of those
who filled the subordinate offices of our public service.
—(Hear.) They were worthy of great trust. He had
heard in other countries of means existing for acquiring
a knowledge of important secrets and documents; but
he had never known an instance in this country of any
such imputation on the honour of a public man even in
the humblest station.—(Hear, bear.) When he had the
honour of filling the office of First Lord of the Trea-
sury, he had been allowed 3001. a year each for the sa-
laries of two private secretaries. Of course he was
obliged to take those gentlemen from the Treasury and
he could say that if they had 10,0001. a year they could
not perform their duties with more zeal, fidelity, and
efficiency than they had done.—(Hear, hear.) Now if
the present motion meant anything, it meant that there
ought to be a revision of the salaries of such men as
these; and he felt bound to oppose it, because he
thought it would inflict a wound on men to whom the
public were under great obligations. He admitted that
in forming new establishments it was a fair con-
sideration to be taken into account that the prices of
provisions were lower now than they had been formerly;
but in considering the case of those who had spent some
20 years or more in the public service, he did not think
that was a matter which ought to be taken into account
just now. A Committee had already been appointed
for inquiring into the salaries of the higher class of pub-
lic officers, with a view to ascertain whether or not it
was advisable that those salaries should be reduced.
Now he should state his opinion upon that subject with-
out any hesitation. His opinion was, that those who
filled the highest offices of the state in this country did
not receive an amount of remuneration in the slightest
degree greater than that—he would not say to which they
were entitled—but than that which the public interest
required should be attached to the situations which they
held. While he entertained that opinion, he also believed
that those who filled subordinate offices in the state were
at least equally entitled to consideration and protection;
and with that conviction he should vote for the motion
which implied that the sense of the House ought not to
be taken on the proposal of the Hon. Member for Ox-
fordshire.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. COBDEN said that the only argument he had
heard advanced in favour of the motion then under their
consideration was, that the salaries of public officers
should be reduced in proportion to the reduction which
had of late years taken place in the price of commodities
of every description. Now, if he were to admit the va-
lidity of that argument, he should be a party to a ge-
neral reduction of wages in this country—(Hear, hear)
—for that would naturally be regarded as a war on
wages. He objected to any proposed reduction of wages
by a sweeping vote of that House—first, because he
thought it would be impracticable, and next, because he
believed that no ground had been shown for such a re-
duction. It had been stated by the Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire, that since the years 1828 and 1829 there
had been a general reduction in the prices of articles of
consumption in this country. The lion. Gentleman had
calculated that reduction at from 23 to 25 per cent.; and
he had argued that there ought to be a proportionate
reduction in the amount of wages. But he (Mr. Cob-
den) did not see that that consequence necessarily fol-
lowed from those premises. There might have been a
reduction in the price of commodities in consequence
of improvements in the mode of producing them;
ironmongery might be cheaper in consequence of the
discovery of the hot-blast, and corn might be cheaper
in consequence of the employment of guano and the
adoption of a system of efficient drainage.—(Cries of
Hear, bear," and " Oh, oh.") But if the cheapness
was owing to discoveries in science, why, he should ask,
ought not the working classes as well as all other mem-
bers of the community to be benefited by their introduc-
tion? Hon. Gentlemen Opposite spoke as if all classes
in the country had of late years suffered reductions in
their incomes. But he denied that that had been the
say there bad been no such reduc-
case. He denied that rents had been reduced.—(Hear,
hear.) He denied that as a general rule there had of late
years been a reduction of rents in England. In the north
a reduction of wages, that he main-
etifonE,hagnlclaehde mighthdeidnot anticipate a reduction. But so far
was it from being true, that a reduction of prices neces-
tteendency was the very reverse. The re-
sdtaauirceitleiydonitehodef price led to an increased demand, and
the increased demand produced a tendency to an
advance of wages. Hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed
to be ignorant of the fact that there had of late
cyearsrease existedofwages a general
I
to an advance of wages
in ibis country.
But he could say, without fear of con-
tradiction, that during the recent diminution of the prices
einmoanl g tendencythe
very p
ersons
of commodities, there had existed a tendency to an in-
by whom the
commodities had been produced. Among the operatives
in Leicester and in Nottingham, there had of late been a
succession of strikes, and an increase of wages unknown
for fifty years before.—(Hear, hear.) Flow, then, could
Hon. Gentlemen opposite come forward and say that the
country was in such a state of distress that the wages of
persons employed by the Goverment should be reduced?
They might as well tell him that the wages of the agri-
cultural labourers had been reduced.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, he could say that for the last fifty years agricultu-
ral labourers had been placed in a different position from
any other class of labourers in this country. They had,
during the whole of that period, been reduced to such a
state that their wages only enabled them to obtain a
scanty subsistence for themselves and their families.
That he called the slavery state of wages. He did not
blame Hon. Gentlemen opposite for that—it had been a
general rule in this country during the last fifty years.
When the price of food rose, the wages of the agricul-
tural labourers were raised in proportion; and when the
price of food fell, the wages of those labourers were re-
duced in proportion; so that they were never able to
purchase more than a certain limited quantity of food.
But even in the agricultural districts he maintained that,
notwithstanding some partial reduction of money wages,
the labourers and their families had been, on the whole,
better fed since food had been at a mederate price than
in the year 1847—the boasted year of agricultural pros-
perity.—(Hear, hear.) lee said that the reduced price
of commodities afforded no reason whatever why the
House should pass a sweeping resolution calling on the
Government to enter on a general reduction of the
wages of labour. Let them look to the position of
clers in government offices. Were Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite aware of the number of those clerks who re-
ceived salaries less in amount than the wages'pail to many
skilled artisans ?—(Hear, hear.) Ile found from a
pamphlet put forward by the civil employee themselves
on a different question from that then under the consi-
deration of the House, that among upwards of 13,000
Government clerks, upwards of 8,000 were receiving
under 100/. a year.—(Bear, bear.) 'Did TT Did _son. Gentle-
men opposite propose that the salaries of those clerks
should be reduced?—(llear, hear.) He agreed with
those who thought that among a large proportion of the
civil servants of the Government the salaries were not
excessively high. He also thought that they would have
a better chance of reducing their expenditure by dimi-
nishing the number of the Public servants than by our-

tioa did not allude to the possibility of reducing the
number of the public servants, but
,dwelt only on the
reduction of their saltries. The lion. Gentleman and

his party had supported the motion in a way which al-
most led him (Mr. Cobden) to infer that there was a
concealed sting hi the resolution, and that it was meant
as a retaliation fur the fall in the price of certain com-
modities.—(clear.) Ile had heard with much satisfac-
tion the speech made that evening by his Hon. Friend
the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume); and it certainly
appeared to him that everything in that speech had gone
against the motion of the Hun. Member for Oxfordshire.

His Hon. Friend had said that the wages and the sala-

ries of persons employed in the public offices were not in
general excessive, while he added that those persons
might be reduced in number. But the Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire had lost sight of all that, and had only pro-
posed a sweeping reduction of salaries. The Hon. Mem-
ber and aaotber Hon. Gentleman who followed him

seemed to have gone out of their way for the purpose of
at'acking him for having stated that the best mode of
reducing the national expenditure would be by effecting
a reduction in our armaments. The Hon. Gentleman

appeared to think that he (Mr. Cobden) bad said that no
reduction could be made except in our armaments. But
what he had said in 1848, and what he then repeated,
was, that no material reduction could be made in
our expenditure—no reduction such as would be
filt at the fireside of every family in the country—
..

if •that costly item, our military establishment, was
to remain untouched. What were the reductions
which had been effected since he had made that
statement? Why, he had found that i❑ the year
1848.49 the expenses of our military establishments,
including the expense of the Kafir war, had amounted
to 18,700,0001., while the whole of the estimates
of the present year, for the army, the navy,
and the ordnance, amounted to only 14,300,000/. That
fact, he thought, afforded a strong justification of the
statement he had made in the year 1848. He believed
that a considerable reduction in the national expenditure
might be effected by a change in our system of pensions
and superannuation allowances. He did not see why
there should be a superannuation allowance for any civil
servant. The case of such a porson was totally
different from that of a man who had had his limbs
shattered in the military service. He did not see why
any civil servant who, during 30 or 40 years, had been
in the receipt of a good salary, should have a claim on
the country for a pension during the remainder of his
life. Reference had been made to the Select Committee
which had been appointed the other day to inquire into
the salaries of the higher class of public officials. He had
voted for that Committee, althought it had been opposed
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. His Hon.
Friend said he did not see any use in a Committee. But
he (Mr. Cobden) could not agree with him upon that
point. The Committee of the import duties, for which
his Hon. Friend himself had moved, had done more than
any other to carry free trade. And, again, he believed
that the Committee on the African squadron would ulti•

mately lead to the removal of the African blockade. The
report of a Committee might not by itself beiproductive
of any important result; but the evidence brought before
a Committee often influenced public opinion to a very
material extent. He felt great regret in differing upon
that occasion from his lion. Friend the Member for
Montrose, whose labours in the cause of economy no one
could doubt or mistrust. But it appeared to him (Mr.
Cobden) that upon that question his Hon. Friend had
made a speech upon one side, whiie he was about to
vote upon the other. For his part he objected to a re-
duction of the salaries of the humbler class of Govern-
ment clerks•, he objected to the reasons given for that
reduction; he did not wish to see blame cast upon free
trade by making it the pretext for curtailing the emolu-
ments of useful public officials, He did not wish to
make it appear that this country was less able at present
than it had been before the adoption of free trade to pay
those who were engaged in its service; he did not wish
to see any class excluded from the benefits which free
trade was, in his belief, calculated to confer; and he
should therefore give his vote against the motion of the
Hon. Member for Oxfordshire.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed his surprise
that so profound a political economist as the Honourable
Member for the West Riding should have referred to
the case of the agricultural labourer in the way he had
done. The Honourable Member ought to be aware that
the case of the agricultural labourer was a peculiar one,
him a minimum of wagaai
bwcehowas
urhbreeee
labourers,rlr oteshw wa twatshht cenihon
omlo:
fppe opoawsefr saani
wages
be
theeedl
de
to go.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Member also
s.
because the effect of the poor-law was to prescribe for
aiwtmgcaerw:inuteaeesnsrrtaii
rpad
nmai di
do
unnot
manytot soi enf e
individual
pvaai tgdroieussabhl oewe
e
to be high, great numbers of persons were wholly
unemployed, and, consequently, the amount of
wages paid ought to be considered with reference
to the whole population of the district.—(Hear, hear.)
It really would be satisfactory if Ministers would
have the kindness to declare, once and for all, whether
the country bad gained or lost by their measures.
To-night the House had been informed that the coun-
try bad not gained a farthing; whereas, at the begin-
ning of the session, it was asserted that our gain
amounted to not less than 90,000,000/.—(Hear, hear.)
Perhaps the question was an open one with the Minis-
try, and they had not yet arrived at any satisfactory con-
clusion with respect to it. His reason for thinking it
just and politic to reduce salaries rather than to dimi-
nish the number of persons employed la as this: —T here
had taken place a general reduction of the prices of ar-
ticles of consumption—a reduction brought about not by
any partial cause, but the result of a system in which
Ministers and gentlemen opposite were now triumph-
ing.—(Hear, hear.) Man, like all animals, was grega-
rious, and there were only two ways of moving grega-
rious herds—you must attract them by the clover in
front, or impel them by the goad behind. Now, he
was for a strong government; he cared not whether
it were monarchical, constitutional, republican, or any-
thing else.—(Laughter.) Governments in this coun-
try had been strong in past years, by bribing the
boroughmongers—by bribing the Lord Lonsdales.--[A
Memberimmediately behind Mr. Drummond here uttered
an exclamation which caused considerable laughter.]
It wag unfortunate that the Honourable Member should
have interrupted him in the midst of a compound sub-
stantive.—(A laugh.) He was saying that former Ad-
ministrations found it necessary to bribe the borough-

mongers, in order that they might be able tocarry on the
government, and now Ministers must the bribe financial
reformers for the same purpose. The great lords and
the aristocracy, it seemed, had a monopoly of the army,
and did not want commissionerships and smaller offices;
but the financial reformers did want them for their friends
and relatives—(Hear, and laughter)—and therefore
oe
found
happenedsuw,
naodnu
and
voting
ow votetthione gn b oawe
with
tyh brought
there would be plenty of speeches from those gentlemen
powwofhastiril:tst,top,tnrhia,neclyitkitchewaabtothl
out. of doors in favour of retrenchment and economy,
practical Ministers
ni
sptfor
favourorr
s:
against it.—(Hear.)
Mr. WOOD said, that free trade had had the happy
effect of making, not only the Hon. Member fur Ox-
fordshire, but the constituents whom he so able repre-
sented, economists; for a farmers' club established in
Oxfordshire for the avowed object of maintaining agri-
cultural protection had not long since dissolved itself,
the farmers declaring that the question of protection was
at end. The present motion was not so rough and rude
in its form as that proposed by the same Hon. Member
would dPporruboesspeeeo'nsa propositions,
last year, which contemplated the reduction of all salaries
to the extant of 10 per cent. The Right Hon. Member
for Stamford made an excellent speech against the Hon.
Member's motion last session, in the course of which he
showed that out of 23,000 persons employed in the civil
service of the Government, 20,000 had incomes under
1001. a year. It was therefore evident that the reduc-
tion proposed by the Hon. Member would chiefly apply
to persons in receipt of very moderate incomes. Persons
in the civil service of tho Government were vary far from
being extravagantly paid. It came within his own
knowledge that gentlemen who had started from the
Universities with him and entered into Government
offices in preference to professions were now, atter
many years' service, in the receipt. of only 2001. or 3001.
a year. Looking at the ominous introduction of the
word " wages" into the motion and arguments by which
it had been supported, the country would look upon its
adoption by the House as a declaration that wages must
bo reduced in consequence of the adoption of free trade,
and, under these circumstances, he felt bound to vote
against the resolution.
Mr. DISRAELI—There was one thing at least upon
which the House and the country were agreed, notwith-
standing some delicately-toned dissentient murmurs
which had been breathed that evening, namely, that the
pressure of taxation on the country was excessive.—
(Hear, hear.) From all classes of the community, from
all parties in the State, from every part of the kingdom,
the declaration was heard that retrenchment was not only
desirable but necessary.—(Hear.) The Hon. Member
for the West Riding and his friends had taken a leading
part in encouraging the cry for retrenchment. They
announced that a vast measure of reduction of the public
expenditure was absolutely necessary, and, to do the Hon.
Member for the West Riding justice, it must be admitted
that he no sooner entered the House after the recess than
he proposed a resolution to which the epithet " sweep-
ing." which it now appeared the Hon. Gentleman dis-
liked, was felicitously applicable.—(Hear, and laughter.)
There could bo no doubt, also, that amongst another
class with which the Hon. Member for the West Riding
was not very closely connected, although be was par'
tially so—namely, the agricultural class, there existed a
sincere conviction that the public burdens to which they
were subjected were of a very grievous character. The
question, then, naturally occurred—what was the cause
of this?—how did it happen that in 1849-50 a country
whose population bad greatly increased, whose capital,
it was said, had surprisingly accumulated, whose com-
merce was vast, and whose manufactures were so in-
genious and (as was alleged) so prospering, should be
pervaded by a general feeling of uneasiness, and that all
classes in it should combine to tell the Legislature that
their burdens were not only grievous but intolerable?—
(Cheers.) During several years the Legislature
had been engaged in reducing that class of
taxation which pressed most sensibly on the
springs of industry. For many years past million after
million of taxes had been removed from the shoulders
of; that class with which the lion. Member for the West
Riding was connected.—(Hear, hear.) Nearly 9,000,000/.
of taxation had been remitted, the object of that remis-
sion being to make the burden of imposts more easily
borne by the favoured class, and when all that had been
done the Hon. Member for the West Riding and his
friends came to Parliament and said, " Only repeal the
corn-laws and we will beat the world." Well, the corn-
laws wererepealed, but the world was not yet vanquished.
—(Cheers.) This being the state of affairs, the Hon.
Member for the West Riding, and his friends, who, out
of doors weite proud of being thought the leaders of what
they called a new movement for the reduction of ex-
' penditure and taxation, had conducted themselves in the
gouge that evening es if they were it many Qbancollors

of the Exchequer, and as if it was their business to paint , the position of the chief clerks and virtual Ministers o
in rosy hues the prospering fortunes of a flourishing State in Downing-street, nor upon the statement of the
community.—(Cheers and laughter.) In the meantime Hon. Member for the West Riding, that he would not
whilst the Hon. Members and his friends were claiming vote for the motion because it would affect the wages of
credit for getting up a new agitation, a change had come ; the country. Wages were already affected, and they
over the fortunes of the classes with which they who sat believed that there was no part of the community who
on that (the Opposition) side of the House were con- would not in that respect be affected. Hon. Members
nected. They found that in consequence of their di- might try to avoid the consequences of the motion, and
rninished means they were unable to meet the charges to evade the responsibility which hung over their heads,
which the Legislature had imposed on them, and they but they could not evade it. No man in that House
naturally sought relief in a legitimate wry. The reduc- could evade it, and least of all those clamorous
tion of expenditure, as leading to a reduction of taxation, patriots who founded institutions and societies
was the means of relief which first suggested itself. In for financial reform, who entered that House and pro-
accordance with that sentiment, they (the Opposition) posed, in unison with those institutions, impracticable
had proposed and supported various propositions. They propositions, and the moment they were brought to a
(the Protectionists) hal been subjected to imputations point at which they must decide upon a definite sum,
from Hon. Gentlemen, some of whom were so distin- levied for a particular object, fled from the test. Neither
;wished as to occupy seats on the Treasury bench. He the plea that the Government was in danger, and that
did not refer, of course, to those unfounded statements wages would be affected, nor any other shadowy subter-
which, in an excited tie quoque, were excusable at a late fuge that might suit their purpose that night, would pre-
hour of the night in a debate. But when the Noble vent them being condemned by the general voice of the
Lord, because they had given votes' the object and effect country.—(Cheers.) He did not know, and he did not
of which were to remove burdens from the community, care what might be the causes of the universally ac-
charged them with the intention of breaking faith with knowledged distress which many Gentlemen had referred
the public creditor and destroying the finances of the to. He had his own opinion on the subject. Like the
country, he made an imputation which was little autho- Honourable Member for Oxfordshire, he did not sup-
rised by facts, and had supported it by an allegation pose that it proceeded from one particular cause. He
which was purely imaginary—viz., that he and the gen- had no doubt that an evil so complicated, so general,
tleman who usually acted with him had voted for the was occasioned by many causes; but he thought that it
repeal cf the window-tax. Now he maintained that they might be traced to one predominant cause, the conic-
on that side of the House had given no votes for the re- quences of which were injurious, and which would bo
mission of taxation which were not authorised by ultimately more than injurious.—(llear.) But what ho
the state of the public finances; neither had they given wanted to call the attention of the House and the coun-
any without a due consideration of the claims of the try to was this, that the result was no longer ques-
public creditor. But he admitted that their votes tioned. At feet, when they talked of distress, they
tied also been guided by a due consideration to the were told there was no distress, and that the country
claims of their suffering constituents. The Tory party were was prosperous. They were now told that it was true
now charged by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the that there was very great distress, but that it was not
Member for Sheffield with "new-born zeal for econo- occasioned by any legislative measure, but by railroads.
my." The advocacy of economy had been considered Well, he asked, who was responsible for railroads?—
by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman as something fo- (Hear.) Why, those great men who ought to be the
reign to the nature of their great political connexion. guides of the House, their tutors in political instruction,
He (Mr. Disraeli) would like to know what great finan- and the guardians of the public conduct. Did they not
cial reductions had been made in this country in modern stimulate railroads in that House?—(Cheers.) Did they
times except by the Tory party.—(Cheers.) He did not take the violent step of melting the attendance on
not refer to times far remote, but if Hon. Gentlemen Railway Committees compulsory, in order that no time
would run their eye over the history of this country might be lost in forming competitive lines? Were not the
from the period atter the independence of the United young men of England admonished not to lose their time
States up to the passing of the Reform Bill, they would in making speeches, but to devote their time to Railway
find that every great measure of public economy and Committees? Was not that the advice of great statesmen?
fin uncial reform had been effected by the Tory party.— Well, what was the conduct of the great middle class, who
(Ironical cheers.) Why, what did they do when they ought to be the governors and guides of the country?
passed the Reform Bill? They destroyed that Govern- It used to be said that the time was come when England
meat which they were now obliged to bring forward as was to be governed by a kw great towns, but that
the model Government of political frugality.--(Hear, was when shares were at a premium of 150 per cent. It
hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman the Member was then that it was said there should be no House of
fur the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn), who Lords, and the House of Commons must be reconstructed.
was then Chancellor of the Exchequer, might look back What had been the result of the superior energy, enter-
, upon his career as one which was not at all common in prise, and sagacity of the great middle class, especially
our times—a career in the course of which he bad twice in the great towns of the north of England? Why, it
effected a great reduction in the interest paid for the appeared that more than 100,000,000/. had not only been
national debt. Yet the House had just been told of lost in railroad speculations, but lost, it appeared, by
" the new-born zeal" of the Tory party.—(Hear, hear.) not keeping accounts. And these were the men who
The gentlemen who passed, or who were the creatures had been all over England denouncing the farmers, be-
of the Reform Bill, had produced a Parliamentary Go. cause they cultivated land without keeping accounts.—
vernment which the Hon. Member for Montrose knew, (Laughter.) Well, what was the predominant cause of
with a heavy heart, had produced the greatest financial that distress, to provide a remedy for which he intended
disasters to the country; and the Hon. Gentleman, no to support the motion of his Honourable Friend to-
doubt, looked back with satisfaction to the time when night? He thought it was mainly occasioned by that
he found more economy in an unreformed Parliament legislation of 1846 which affected the interchange of
than had ever been effected by a reformed Parliament. the most important commodities between different
Those gentlemen who had received their education in countries. (Hear, hear.) He had: always been
reform and financial associations, and who did not of that opinion, and he had always expressed that
condescend to look into the history of their country opinion. The Noble Lord had said to the Tory
beyond a few years back, now came forward and an- party, "If such aro your opinions, why don't you bring
nounced that they could not support a motion which had forward the question ? " Gentlemen on his side of the
public economy for its object, because it had originated House were quite aware of their deficiences ; they were
In the new-born zeal of the Tory party I What was the often reminded of them by the eminent, honourable, he
motion of his lion. Friend? It was a motion might almost say illustrious persons about them ; they
in perfect accordance with many Parliamentary could not attempt to rival others in eloquence and poll-
precedents —in perfect accordance with many mo- tical sagacity and forethought, but at all events they
tions which had been made by Members of were not weak enough to allow their campaign to be
the Tory party within the last fifty years. It chalked out for them by their opponents.—(Hear, hear,
was much more than that: it was a motion in perfect ac- and laughter.) However, he would tell the Noble Lord
cordanco with the exigencies of the times.—(Hear, hear.) very candidly why they did not bring forward the ques-
That motion, however, had encountered the anticipated tion. They did not think it was a question to be
opposition of many eminent individuals. It had been settled in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.)
opposed, of course, by the Right Hon. Gentleman the They thought, that whatever the decision of the House
Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at the beginning of upon it might be, it could not be satisfactory to the
the session—only a few weeks ego—announced that country. It seemed incidental to human nature
prices had fallen below the mark which ho had antici- that wisdom was only to be acquired by adversity ;
pated, and who had the honourable courage to confess and when the country had arrived at that pitch of suf-
that he trusted a rise would soon take place, but who had feriog which should teach it the great lesson, he
that night vindicated his opposition to the motion by his had no doubt the country would settle the question
researches into the books of the Marylebone Vestry, for itself, without troubling him or the Noble Lord at
which proved that prices had risen. That was the most all in the matter.—(Hear, hear.) Sure he was that no
important part of the statistical information of the Right other settlement of it would be permanently satisfactory
Hon. Gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) Then came the °pp- to the country.—(Hear, hear.) Whichever way the
sition of a still more important party—that of' the Right House might vote, the people out of doors would be dis-
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth; and cer- satisfied. Even supposing a substantive motion for the
tainly, as far as his observations went, they were retracing of their steps in commercial legislation were,
quite unanswerable, because the theatre on which the as desired by the Noble Lord, proposed to an assembly
Right Honourable Gentleman had played was of a li- pledged the other way, and even supposing it carried, its
mired, although of a classical character—it was con- proposers would not achieve a result which, as prudent
fined to Downing-street. One would have supposed men, they should desire to accomplish; because it was
from the observations of the Right Honourable Gen- by slow degrees, by the salutary experience of suffer-
tleman, that the subject of the motion of the lion. ing, that the various classes of the community must
Member for Oxfordshire was to curtail the salaries of arrive at that charge which assuredly they would by-
those mysterious and rare individuals who were virtually and-bye arrive at.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat down
the Government of the country. The Right Hon. Gen- he would mike one observation which he thought the
tleman had referred to the late Mr. Brooksbank, as if Noble Lord would do well to reflect upon before he
they were about to invade the innermost sanctuary of again talked of ideas cf this kind coming under the
Downing-street, and to deprive gentlemen who des- head of a wildgoose chase. It seemed to be the convic-
charged responsible and important duties, and were en- tion of the Noble Lord and his friends that the notion
trusted with most important secrets, of the rewards which of a recurrence to the commercial system that bad been
they had so dearly won. The Right Hon. Gentleman abrogated was perfectly insensate, especially so in a
had argued the whole case as it' they were merely deal- country where democratic sympathies so greatly pre-
ing with some 100,0001. or 200,000/. a year. Was that veiled as, very fortunately, they did in this country.
the case? On the contrary, had not the Hon. Member Ile would remind the Noble Lord that there was a na-
for Oxturdshire, in his ingenious and thoroughly trust- tion, a nation not second in power even to our own great
worthy argument, shown that they would have to deal and powerful nation, where the reaction so ridiculed had
with an amount of not less than 7,500,000/.2 Now, did actually taken place; that nation, moreover, being one
the observations of the Right lion. Gentleman apply to in which the democratic influence was immensely more
that theme?—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman powerful even than it was in England; he spoke of the
had drawn a most interesting picture of himself; over- United States of America.—(Hear, hear.) Before the
whelmed with the cares of state, and supported en each Noble Lord again told them that a recurrence to the com-
side by a private secretary—the one with 3001. a year, mercial code under which this country so long and so
and the other with 150/. Now, what would have been greatly prospered was a wild phantasma, to be rejected
said if Lord Hardinge, after one of his great victories, by every sane man, let him reflect that the phantasms
had written home a dispatch, in which he stated that in was accepted in America.—(Hear, hear.) In a House
the thick of the fight he had been supported by two where there was such frequent eulogy of American in-
aides-de-camp, the one an ensign and the other a lieu- stitutions, and American conduct, and American intel-
tenant—that they were men in whom he had greatly lect, he might fairly expect that the admirers of Ameri-
trusted, and to tne faithful fulfilment of whose arduous can politics would in time also become admirers of Arne-
duties ho was much indebted, that they had almost sa- rican economies.—(Hear, hear.) He for one was not
crificed, and hal certainly hazarded their lives in that desirous that the great and inevitable reconstruction of
great victory, but that he had a most painful feeling our commercial system on principles favourable to native
when he remembered that one of them had only 3001. industry—not to the cosmopolitan interests, so elo-
and the other only 1501. a year?—(Cries of " Oh, oh !" queutly and so sincerely advocated by the Gallant
and " Hear, hear.") lie maietained that the cases were Colonel—should take place in any other way than in
quite parallel. But he would ask, did a young man who the United States, as the consequence, merely, of sharp
desired the post of private secretary to a Minister of experience, and under the influence of popular sentl-
State look to the immediate wages ho received ? No: ment.—(Cheers.)
he looked to the immediate reward of the confidence of Lord J. RUSSELL said, that at that hour of the
_ _ _ _

his chief, and to the future rewards which were open to
him. That, therefore, was an amiable but ad captatidum
answer,which had nothing whatever:o do with the motion
before the House. After the Right Hon. Gentleman
followed the Hon. Member for the West Riding. The
Noble Lord the other night seemed a little angry with
him and some of his friends for having gone into the
same lobby with the Hon. Member for tne West Riding
and his friends. He seemed to think there was some-
thine. very dangerous in being connected with
such' allies. The Noble Lord during his varied career
had had great experience; and one would have supposed
he would have been the last person to find fault with
such " compact alliances."—(Hear, hear.) But the
Noble Lord need have no serious fears on the subject.
Those votes had already effected a salutary purpose.
The House had that night had a frank avowal trom the
great leader of the Financial Reform Association that a
proposition of " a sweeping nature"—never mind his
reasons—should not receive his support.—(Hear. hear,
and laughter.) That was something which the Protec-
tionists had effected, and as there would necessarily be
great anxiety felt by her Majet.ty's Ministers to alvanc e
public business, it would be gratifying to them to find that
there was now not the slightest fear that the " sweeping
motions" which used to occupy the notice- book, and pro-
crastinate the termination of the session—such as the
motions for the repeal of taxes, the ext cation of the fran-
chise, and the like—would be ever again brought forward
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because they (the Protec-
tionists) had established this great political truth, that
when a liberal motion was proposed it bad occa-
sionally the chance of being carried. (Cheers,
and great laughter.) They were now reaping
the rapid results of their tactics, and financial reform
had that night received a fatal blow. In future, sincere
financial reformers must trust to " the new-bern zeal" of
that party who for the last seventy years hadbheen la-
bouring to effect that object.—(Hear, hear.) T e pro-
position of his Hon. Friend, then, was to ask the House
to consider whether they could not effect a retrench-
ment with regard to some 7,500,000/. Who doubted
that they could ? But the Government said, " Leave it
to us ; we will do it." But the Protectionists had of-
fered to leave it to them, and instead of accepting the
offer the Government had appointed a Committee.—
(Hear, heete) He oh: erved that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer cheered. The Right Hon. Gentleman was,
no doubt, glad to get rid of the question by transferring
the responsibility of Ministers to a Committee.
[fhe Chancellor of the Exchequer denied having
cheered.] The Right Hon. Gentleman's voice was too
agreeable to him, it was impossible to mistake it.—
(Laughter.) He assured Honourable Gentlemen
who had an abstract admiration of retrench-
ment, but who were afraid to vote for it, that it was
as disagreeable to him as to them to cut down sala-
ries ; but had not society arrived at such a state in
England that they were forced to take that step? That
was the question, and that night they would be made to
answer it.—(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been in,ide to
the dreadful position of a clerk with 1001. a year having
10 or 20 per cent. taken from him; but was his position
worse than that of the labourer?—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Member for the West Riding said he would not
vote for the motion, although he admitted its abstract
justice, because it would be a condemnation of the new
system. He would tell the Hon. Gentleman that this was
not a condemnation of the new system; but it was one
of the consequences of it. Its condemnation would
come in due season.—(Cheers.) But one of ehe results
of the now system was, that they were all obliged, in
consequence of the increased burdens of the people, to
examine the public expenditure of the country. Now,
here was 7,500,0001. to begin with. He wanted this
fairly to be understood out of doors. He did nut want
them to run away with the sentimentality of the Right
Hon. Gentlemen the Member for Tamworth, and s,up-
pose that they were dealing with a very swan eti?d in-
significant sum distributed among a very faw .
hard-
working men. They were no such thing. He estimated
that the motion, if carried, would probably lead to a
saving of 1,000,0001. per annum, and perhaps more, and
those who would form a judgment upon their conduct
that night with regard to that important question were
hard-working men, who were suffering hardly. The
House must not bo permitted to ride off from the conse.
a Qauces Oleic Tote uPo thQ Se"IIIQU "wriPti9ll of

night he would endeavour to confine himself closely to
the motion before the House. The Hon. Member for
Oxfordshire proposed an address to her Majesty for a
revision of all the salaries in every department of the
public service, with a view to reduction. His first objec-
tion to the motion was that it was unjust.—(Hear, hear.)
When he moved for a Committee in a former session, he
stated that the Government had made a revision of the
department of Stamps and Taxes, and that many re-
ductions had been made in that department; to the
amount of 250,0001.; he stated the number of persons
who had been reduced in that department; and he stated
likewise that with respect to offices belonging to the exe-
cutive Government a careful revision had been already
made in several of them; that iu the Home-office and in
the Treasury very considerable reductions had been made
in the number of persons employed, and that all the
other officer. were to be subjected to similar reductions.
—(Hear, hear.) He was surprised, therefore, to hear the
Hon. Member for Montrose now making the statement
that the Government refused all revision.—(Hear, hear.)
He had, moreover, recently proposed a Committee to
consider the official salaries of persons holding seats in
the two Houses, of judicial officers, and of the diplomatic
establishment; and he would distinctly say that in th•
face of all the revision already effected, and of the revi-
sion going on, to propose an address to the Crown for
revision, as though no revision had taken place, was an
unjust imputation upon the Goverment, which had done
so much, and which had manifested its readiness to do
mere.—(Hear, hear.) So far as to the nature of the mo-
tion of the lion. Member for Oxfordshire, made, be it
remarked, after the Hon. Member had heard so re-
peatedly from the Government its determination to
proceed to the utmost possible extent in the course of
—th(weilaHes aorn,
that. hear.) aernh. )t
el e
niTh
aahnde,
so nnloy motion,con-
clusionc o n
nreu vdi
es ir o
to o
suchna and
bdedrawn
circumstances, of red ue t
fromion.
fidence in the proposals of the Government, and that
he conceived it to be the duty cf the Government to re-
sort to some other mode of revision.—(" Hear," from Col.
Sibthorp.) The Hon. and Gallant Member, with his
accustomed candour, accepted that interpretation. But
the motion contained something more than this. It
would be, in his opinion, an objectionable proposition
did it merely extend to the Government of the day,
but it further proposed to have an accurate revision of
the salaries and wages in every department of the pub-
lic service. Let him first advert to the salaries. This
proposal as to salaries must be taken in conjunction
with the motion which the Hon. Member for Oxford -
shire made last year, in conjuction with portions. ef
th_e
ie
speech that evening, and in conjunction, too, w ith h
declaration just made by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire. The declaration was
that there had been a great reduction in the
prices of the necessaries of life, and that there-
fore there should be a proportionable reduction
woul id say,nth
salaries of public officers.—(Hoar, hear.)
at once, that the reductions tthe
had gone on an entirely different Governmente
tp r c i
hear.) What they had done was this :—Whenever they
found that more persons were employed than were wanted
necessary point;
for the public service, they had redueed the number by
but to make reductions current price of
superannuations andothaeerewordeintgottohtei,
necessaries of life would be, in his opinion, unfair and
ualus • -t to that great body of persons who were employed
in the public service.—(llear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Member for Tamworth had said no snore than what every
person having experience in the public service would say,
when he commended so highly the services of those ten-
demon who were permanently employed in the public,
departments. As to the comparison set up by the Hon.
eleinber for Buckinghamshire between those gentlemen
and a general's aide-de-camp it was altogether
futile. —(llcar, hear.) It was these gentlemen,
in the permanent service of the various departments,
who carried on the whole machinery of the government,
the chiefs of which were liable to change with every re-
volution of opinion in or out of the House. It was es-
sential to the public service to have men of such expe-
rience and
,practised ability permanently in the public)
departments; and he would venture to say that were tho
present Government to go out of office in consequence
of any vote of the House or other circumstance, and
Hon. Gentlemen opposite were to succeed them, they
Wettlel act be ill office a single day before they