The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-21 00:00:00

THE IRISH POOR.

In answer to Mr. MAGUIRE,
Mr. BOUVERIE said that in consequence of his not
receiving the support he expected last session in the bill
'be introduced on the subject, be did not intend to bring
in another hill of the kind this session. He would, how-
ever, consider any bill the hon. gentleman might intro-
duce on the subject, and if he could he would support

it.
Mr. MAGUIRE said that he would adopt the sug-
gestion.

SUPPLY OF GUANO.

In reply to Lord NA/IW,
Jr. LABOUCHERE said that some difficulty had
arisen with reference to the supply of guano from the
native tribes near the islands of Jiblea, Hanki, and
• Gurzoud, on the coast of Arabia, believing they had
some right to the guano, which was now under investi-
gation. Messrs. Ord, Hudson, and Hayes had a licence
which gave them a monopoly of the trade for five years,
four of which were unexpired.
THE MEG ERA TROOP-SHIP.

Sir J. PAKINGTON moved the adjournment of the
house to put some questions to the First Lord of the
Admiralty, relative to the ship which left Portsmouth
with 500 troops, and had to put back in a few days
from the vessel having sprung a dangerous leak.
He said that he had received communications from
some of the officers on board the ship stating that
when- the ship was about one hundred and forty
miles from land she sprung a dangerous leak, and tons
of water came in every minute, so that the cabins were
flooded. He gave a detailed account of the state of the
ship from the information which he bad received, which,
be said, was at variance with the former statement of
the, First Lord of the Admiralty, and there was ne-
glect in sending] the ship to sea in such a dangerous
state.
Sir C. WOOD denied that he stated or admitted on
a former occasion that the ship was sent to sea in a
dangerous state. His information was derived from a
report made to him, which showed that the ship had
been sent to sea in, as was believed, a sound state,
-but that on examining her in Plymouth
dock, it was found that two screw holes,
about the size of a man's finger, were open seven feet
below the water line, through which the water came,
but only in such quantities that it could be kept down
by a hand-bucket. The ship was properly in-
spected before she went to sea. The right honourable
baronet read the reports of the various officers in ,
re-
ference to this ship, which confirmed his previous state-
ment. No pains were spared to render the ship sea-
worthy, and the officers of the ship inspected her before
sailing, and expressed their satisfaction of her condition.
The report of the military officers showed that the
arrangements for the troops were satisfactory. He re-
peated his former statement that she left port in an efficient
manner, but 'that she met with rough weather, and was
injudiciously pushed against the sea which strained' her,
- and her leakage was an unavoidable accident from stresso
;f weather.
atheofficers were
o

had been given. to General Gascoigne, who had
the command of the camp at Colchester ; and, until he
had received his report he could not state anythirg
decisive. It would be a bad precedent to afford relief
in this instance from the army fund, and to break
through the army regulations, in reference to soldier,
marrying. He saw no reason for their marrying--
(laughter)—for they were very young men, and were
only enlisted for 1i years.
BILLETTING SOLDIERS.
In reply to Mr. COWAN,
Sir G. GREY said that notice would be given of Ow
clauses to be introduced into the Mutiny Ant.
NEW WRIT.

A new writ was moved for North Leicestershire, in
the room of Lord Granby, called to the Upper House.
RETURNS.
Several unopposed returns were ordered.
WAYS AND MEANS.
THE BUDGET.
Tho order of the day for going into Committee of Wa3 s
and Moans having been read, _

Mr. GLADSTONE presented a petition from a com-
mittee of West India planters and merchants, expressing
the surprise and disappointment with which they had
learned the intention of her Majesty's Government to pro-
pose the continuance of the war tax upon sugar. They re-
presented that if the proposal should be agreed to they
would be subjected to serious loss, that the supplies of
sugar would be discouraged from coming to this country,
and that the sugar-market would be annually disturbed for
a series of years. They therefore prayed the house not to
adopt the scheme of the Government.
On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair,
Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—Sir, before the house
proceeds to consider in committee the financial arrange-
ments of her Majesty's Government I ask them to adopt
the resolution of which I have given notice. In offering
some statements and arguments to the house, which I hope
may persuade them to adopt that resolution, it is my in-
tention, so far as I can, to conduct the discussion in that
temperate spirit which I think discussions of this nature
essentially require. This is a financial debate, and so far
as lam concerned I shall not introduce into it any topic
which may in any way lead the house to depart from the
consideration of those financial details which are now before
us, and a sound judgment upon which appears to me to be
of the utmost importance to the community at large. We
have, and always will have, great differences of opinion in
this house on political subjects of importance, whether fo-
reign or domestic. I dare say that differences of opinion will
always exist in this house as to the manner in which our
foreign relations shall be conducted, and there will also
be differences of opinion upon subjects such as that which
occupied our attention last evening—namely, as to what
classes shall be the depositories of political power in Eng-
land ; but there is one question upon which there ought
not to be a difference of opinion in this house—namely,
the importance of maintaining our finances in a whole-
some condition, and of taking care that the Government
of the country do not impose taxes which are unneces-
sary. Now, I willingly and at once approve the course
which has been proposed by her Majesty's Government
with regard to the war income tax. Since I have devoted
attention to the subject I have always considered that the
existence of that impost involved a public grievance.
Considering the spirited manner in which the people of
this country supported the Ministry during the late war,
—considering the generous and almost lavish manner in
which they placed their resources at the disposal of the
Government in that arduous struggle.—l think it would
have been a great political mistake if the people had dis-
covered that they were saddled with a heavy burden which
did not in its origin come from their own free will, and
which, according to their understanding, had been ob-
tained almost by a clerical error in an act of Parliament.
1 have no doubt the people of this country are prepared at
all times to endure such burdens and to make such sacri-
fices as they think are necessary for the public advantage;
but if they make a sacrifice they require—and I think it
is not unreasonable that-they should require—that at least
they shall make it of their own free will, and that it shall
be an act of their spontaneous devotion. Now, when we
doubled the income tax to carry on tho war there is no
doubt that the whole community heartily acceded to the
proposition. They agreed to double the income tax in
order to carry on the war, and they consented that the in-
creased impost should continue for a year after the war
had ceased. That was clearly understood throughout the
country, and by all classes of the community. The lan-
guage by which that burden was entailed upon them
for another year was introduced into an act of Parlia-
ment of comparative insignificance, not into that by
which the tax was doubled, and it certainly was not
at the time understood by the great body of the people
that the consequence of our legislation would be
not merely to double the income tax, but to enforce
that double tax, granted for carrying on the war, for
two years after that war had ceased. When the people
discovered this they were surprised and indignant,
and it became in my mind, not a financial but a political
question—a question whether it was politic to allow the
disposition of the people, which during the war had been
so ad mirable, to be soured by such circumstances, and
whether, if we continued pedantically to adhere to the let-
ter of the bond, we could in future emergencies appeal to
popular feeling with equal success. Considering that this
was a political and not a financial question, I deeply re-
gret that her Majesty's Ministers should have permitted
that agitation to exist which in the autumn did prevail on
this subject. I know it may be said that Parliament was
not sitting at the time, and there was therefore no meansof
communicating to the country the disposition of the Go-
vernment to evince their sympathy for the spirited man-
ner in which the people had supported them in the war by
conceding to their request of exemption from thisdoubled
tax. But, though Parliament was not sitting, there are
other means of communicating to the country the intentions
of the Government, there are means either by a speech or
by a letter, by which we know that public opinion can be
tranquillised or can be agitated, and I regret very much
that her Majesty's Ministers did not think it consistent
with their duty to communicate to the public during the
autumn the intention which they have since announced in
Parliament. The noblelord the First Minister, for example
went down to Manchester because he wished to express to
the country hisopinions upon an important political treaty.
The noble lord might when this agitation had assumed a
disagreeable character, when not merely a grievance was
complained of, but the very principles upon which thetas
was to be continued were discussed, have availed himself
of similar machinery, and have communicated the determi-
nation of the Government to redress this public grievance.
However, we were disappointed in that respect. There was
another opportunity at which that communication might
have been graciously made, that was at the opening of Par-
liament. I think it would have been most gracious to have
announced in the Speech from the Throne that this grie-
vance should should be redressed. That opportunityalso
was lost; and in consequence I myself announced on the
first night of the session that I should ask the opinion
of the house upon the subject. I mentioned that what I
now say, that I considered I was dealing with a strictly
political question, and not with a financial one ; that I be-
lieved there was a great public grievance which ought to be
redressed ; and that I thought it advisable and proper that
the redress of that grievance should take place imme-
diately after Parliament assembled; and that, as the Minis-
ters themselves did not offer such redress, I thought it was
consistent with the duty of a member of Parliament not
connected withthem to make the attempt. In so doing it
was not my intention to interfere, nor did I consider that
I in any way interfered, with the financial arrangements
of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I did not ask him for
his budget ; I did not ask him for his estimates. If the
Government had, on my motion, taken the opportunity of
announcing their policy with respect to this grievance, they
would not have been pressed for their financial measures ;
they might have brought them forward after the expiration
of an interval of a month from this time. However, those
measures are before the house, and it is necessary that we
calmly and accurately discuss their effect. Sir, I have no
wish at any time to indulge in prospective finance. I agree
that it is more convenient, I should say most convenient,
in discussing the financial position of the country, to con-
fine
ourselves to the current year, whose fortunes we are
endeavouring to lay before the house. (Hear.) But on the
present occasion, if I indulge in prospective finance, I must
remind the house that I am commenting upon a statement ,
which is, in its character and provisions, essentially pro-
s ective. (Hear, hear.) It is not I who have introduced the
prospectivep element into our debates on this subject; it is
the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, who has brought
before the house a prospective budget founded upon an-
other budget eminently prospective—viz., that of the right
hon. gentleman the member for the University of Oxford
(Mr. Gladstone) for the year 1853. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the other night, did not confine his
ken to the commencement and end of the ensuing year.
On the contrary, the right hon. gentleman, not
only upon that, but also upon another occasion,
sketched the position of the Exchequer with re-
gard to finances for a period of three years. On Friday
night—the Light on which ho made his first and principal
statement, the right hon. gentleman summed up his views
under the name of his " plan," and said, " If my plan is
adopted I shall be able to do this and that and other things
in the course of the next three years." The right hon. gen-
tleman did more than this. His plan is prospective, not
not merely as regards his schemes, but also as regards our
pockets ; because he proposed new taxes which are to be
levied for a period of three years, and which are oven to
vary during that space of time, Therefore, those who
should find fault with the motion which I am about to in-
troduce to the notice' and I hope to the acceptance of the
house, on the ground that it interferes prospectively with
the finances of the country—though I do not suppose that
upon mature reflection such an objection will be urged
must
ve to
the
must have forgotten the budget of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and the nature of the financial arrangements
prospective discuss.whu
ha It is,
beelement
Imwre repeat, et a thh,
tetohoue
auClrlhs l s
cv::shlplicaolrhno,r introducednow
the Exchequer
ha
dis-
cussions, and it is utterly impossible to form any opinion
upon the arrangements which he proposes; it is utterly
impossible to offer any criticism upon the schemes which
he has submitted to our notice, unless we consider their
bearing not merely upon the present year, but also upon
the subsequent years before the period arrives when, as we
had hoped, the income tax was, according to the arrange-
ment of 1853, entirely to
t ceao t
cease. ow, sir, I have the two
general objections to
e
dilated on Fridlya n
evuemng.whlcltrhituhifcs
right hon, gentleman •
ble consequences of that plan will be to
that the inevitable
barrassment, and to render the remission
cause
financial
erl'n 1860 not merely difficult but absoluely
of the income These are the two great objections which Iten-
impossible. These
plans of the Chancellor of the Ex-
tartans to the financialtel
described to the house on Friday
chequer, as elabora y
permission of the house, with very little
night. Now,
with
-a that as su cinct as possible, I will
appeal to figures, an
endeavour to show the grounds on which I intend to support
these objections.
I have at this moment very little corn-
stimates of expenditure and- in-
meat to snake upon the e
t offered for the year
come which the right hon. genleman ire capt ouisly into the
e house will
1857-58. Ido not want to in qu
accuracy or wisdom
tatement Th
* of those sentlemans. esti
mated the ex-
recollect that the right hon. g
8 at the sum of 65,474,0001.,
penditure for the year 1857-5
income of 66,365,000/.,
which was to be defrayed by an 800 000/,and 900,0001.
revenue of between on the
leaving a surplus
estimates observe P
I do not in mentioning this es

omission of provision for the Persian war. i I will not
dwell upon the fact that this country is at present at war
with distant countries, but that in these estimates no pro-
vision is male for the expenditure to which those wars
will lead. lam still willing to believe that we are to have
peace with Persia, and that we are not at war with China.
ft is, of course, impossible entirely to shut out the know-
ledge of existing circumstances and the cbnsideration of
their influence upon our finances; but I will, es much as
may be, remove them from the question, and will, if pos-
sible, confine myself to the financial facts and the financial
speculations which have been introduced to the house by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In the year 1857.58,
then, we aro to have an expenditure of 65,475,0001., with
an income of 66,365,0001. The house will recollect that
one of the most important items of that estimated income
accrued from the income tax itself. The right hon. gentle-
man besides the 7,000,0001. which he will obtain if we
raise the tax 2d., will be in the enjoyment of 4,250,0001.
sterling arising from the produce of the war income tax.
Now, sir, having stated to the house the expenditure and
income of 1857-58, I want to put before it also the income
and expenditure of the year 1858-59, the second year of the
right hon. gentleman's plan. As regards the income, I
have taken as far as I could the figures which were
afforded to me by the right hon. gentleman. The house
will understand that any figures that I read, unless they
have been furnished by the Government, I offer, of course,
with diffidence; yet in my general conclusions I havegiven
so large a margin that if my views are right in the main
the results will not be affected by any inaccuracy on the
score of figures. This, then, is the estimate for 1858-9,the
second year of the right hon. gentleman's plan :—He took
for 1857-8 the estimated revenue from the Customs at
22,850,0001. This calculation supposed the duty on tea to
be Is. 7d. per lb. instead of ls. 9d., the rate for the current
year ; and it reckoned the duty on refined sugar at 18s. 4d.
per cwt., instead of 203. But in 1858.9 the duty on tea
will be 2d. less per lb., and that on refined sugar ls. Bd.
less per cwt. I, of course, have the greatest difficulty in
forming an estimate of our probable loss on tea and sugar, c
in the event of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's proposi-
,..

tion for 1858-9 being accepted. I therefore Offer, unaffect-
edly, rather a suggestion than a formal statement of
figures ; but I have estimated that the loss may be on tea
469,000!., and on sugar 442,0001., making together a total
of 911,000/. I take the Customs, then, for 1858-9 at
' 22,339,000/. • the Excise at 17,000,0001. (being the figures
of the right hon. gentleman) ; the stamps I take at the
same amount as in 1857-3—viz., 7,450,000/. ; the land and
assessed taxes at 3,150,000/. ; the income tax, reduced to
7d. in the pound, I take at 7,000,0001. ; the Post-office at
the same sum as in 1857-B—viz., 3,000,000!.: the Crown
lands at 263,000/. ; and the miscellaneous revenue at
1,200,0001. The total income from these various sources
will be 61,404,000/. [The Chancellor of the Exchequer
here made a remark impunging the accuracy of the right
hon. gentleman's calculations.] I think that my figures
will be found to be correct, but I shall not stop to go over
them again at this moment. Now for the exnenditure of
1858-9. I take the estimated charge for the debt at
28,550,000/. This, of course, ought to include the interest
on the whole of the war debt ; but there must be deducted
from this charge the interest on the 2,000,000!. of Exche-
quer-bonds, amounting to 70,000/., which will make
28,480,000/. Next, I take the charge on the Consolichtod
Fund at the same scale as in 1857-B—viz., 1,770,000/. ; the
Army I take at 11,625,000/. ; the navy at 8,109,000/. ; the
packet service at 965,000/. ; the civil service at 7,250,00/. ;
the collection of the revenue at 4,215,000/. ; and the super-
annuations at 475,000/. This gives a total of 62,889,000/.
There are two other additional items, the first of which is
the 2,000,0001. of Exchequer-bonds payable in 1858-9; and
the sum of 1,500,600/ for the sinking fund in the same
year. These items added to the former total produce an
aggregate of 66,389,000/. I ought to state why I have taken
the army, the navy, and the civil services at the same
figures as the right hon. gentleman reckoned them for the
year 1857-8. The right hon. gentleman, when he made his
financial statement a week ago, in applying himself to the
discussion of the great estimates, entered into an elaborate
argument to show us that no very considerable reduction
could be looked for on these items.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—That is
this year.

Mr. DISRAELI—I beg the right hon. gentleman's par-
don. He will have an opportunity of following me in the
debate, and it is not necessary that he should interrupt
me. But, unfortunately, on Friday last the whole tenour
of his argument was that on the whole of these items—
the army, the navy, and the civil service—the increased
charge was of a permanent character, because he *compared
the estimates of 1857-8 with those for the three years im-
mediately before the war, and stated that the current year
is the period of transition from war to peace. The current
year has witnessed a vast reduction in our expenditure.
But, our present estimates not having been laid before us
by the Minister of the Crown previous to his financial state-
ment, I will take the liberty of introducing them now in
detail, and show from analysis the excess of the present over
the corresponding estimates in the time of peace. I will
prove, in fact, that there is no ground for reduction with the
exception of one item, on which the right hon. gentleman
laid very little stress -and I believe rightly so—viz., the
unfulfilled contracts. He analysed the expenditure under
six distinct heads; and, though I will not weary the house
with minute detail, I must recall this circumstance to the
right hon. gentleman's recollection, to show that his argu-
ments cannot apply to 1857-8, the ensuing year. Indeed the
whole of his reasoning tended to convey to us the impression
that, exclusive of the unfulfilled contracts—to which he
attached but small weight—the principle of reduction could
not be carried out to any appreciable extent. With regard
to the navy, having given us five great items of excess, the
right hon. gentleman said that one of them was for an in-
crease in the marines and coastguard. This, he told us,
was the result, not of a war act, but of an act passed in
time of peace. Ho next informed us that the price of pre-
visions is high--one of the other causes of the increase ;
thirdly, that the scientific vote was augmented ; that the
fourth cause of additional expense during the ensuing
year is the item of unfulfilled contracts, which I have al-
ready mentioned. We have very recently obtained some
information that will guide us in ascertaining the amount
of the last-named extra charge, and we may, I think,
safely conclude that it will not be very considerable. Then
the right hon. gentleman said that the vote for steam ma-
chinery and coal would be greater than before in conse-
quence of the progressive introduction of steam power into
our navy—that owing to this circumstance we must look
to an additional expenditure, permanent in its nature.
Then came the increase in the factories in which to repair
our machinery, for enlarging our docks, and for the exten-
sion of the packet service. Now, none of these items for
next year, with the single exception of that for unfulfilled
contracts, is for purposes of a temporary character. There-
fore I do not suppose that the right hon. gentleman antici-
pated the possibility of making any reduction upon his
estimates. Continuing the line of remark to which he has
called my attention by his interruption, and coming next
to the army, here again we had from him the same descrip-
tion of analysis. And the house will observe, whether we
look to the artillery branch, to the creation of new military
trains and a new hospital corps, to the item of 225,0J0/. for
warlike stores (the result of unfulfilled contracts), to arti-
ficers' wages, or to education, works or buildings, that the
result of the analysis was that, in the right hon. gentle-
man's opinion, reduction was not the means by which the
financial arrangements of the country could be carried
into effect. Therefore I believe lam perfectly justified in
taking for the expenditure of 1858-9 the same estimates as
he proposes for the ensuing year 1857.8, and in neither
case adverting to the existence of war, or to the possibility
of fresh misconceptions, which might lead to an increased
expenditure. The consequence of that will be that, with
an expenditure for 1858-59 of 66,300,0001., and an income
of 61,000,0001., you will have an apparent deficiency of
about 5,000,0001. sterling. This, then, is the result of the
second year of his plan. I think I may fairly ask the
house whether this is not a result which should at least call
upon us to reflect, and whether, before we sanction finan-
cial arrangements which, upon the face of the statement of
the right hon. gentleman, threaten such an issue in the
second year of his scheme, it does not become our duty,
previously to going into Committee of Ways and Means, to
examine the whole scope and tendency of the plan of the
Government, and clearly ascertain its probable effect ? But
if the second year of the scheme leads to a deficiency of
5,000,900/., what becomes of the year 1659-60--its third
year, and the year, too, which is to witness, according to
the general idea of the house, the extinction of the income
tax ? All the causes of deficiency which prevail in 1858-
59 equally prevail in the case of 1859-60, with the addition
of another reduction of the duties on tea and sugar. Sir,
I shall not attempt to estimate exactly what will be the
amount of the second reduction of those duties ; but the
house will see that the general effect of the right hon. gen-
tleman's plan would be that at the end of its third year we
should find an accumulated deficiency, according to his
statement of Friday last, about 10,000,000/. This is what
would happen just as we have arrived at the point when
we ought to take off the income tax producing 7,000,000/.
sterling. That appeared to me to be a very grave position
of affairs. (Hear, hear.) What would be the condition of
this country if, in the year 1860, at the termination of the
right hon. gentleman's plan, it found itself with an accu-
mulated deficency of perhaps 10,000,000/., and at the ante
time were asked to renew the income tax? We all know
what would be the inevitable consequences of a proposal to
renew the income tax, with aconviction in the country that
it was to form a permanent feature of our financial system. I
venture to say—as I said the other night—that every con-
troversy which has been appeased, though not settled, by
the belief that the income tax was to cease in 1860 would
be revived. (Hear, hear.) Every class, every section
that is now under the belief that it entered into a compact
with the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the time wuuld
come forward to demand the reason why that compact
was violated. (Hear, hear.) Yon would have one body
of men who would say, "It was because we were told
that the income tax would cease in 1860 that we submitted
to the succession duty." (Hear, hear.) The Irish mem-
bers—l believe the income tax is not very popular in Ire-
land—(hear, hear)—naturally, remembering the peculiar
circumstances under which they were first led into this
tax—would very properly come forward and say, " We
acquiesced in the extension of the income tax to Ireland
1 because we were told that it was part of a system which
secured its extinction at a particular period." (Hear.)
As for England itself we can form some idea by the agita-
tion of the last autumn of the character of the questions
which would arise here. Graduated scales, distinctions of
assessments—the old quarrel between precarious and per-
manent incomes—whether trade profits are to pay as high
a rate as rents derived from real property or the dividends
of the public creditor—whether professional remuneration
is to be taxed at the same rate even as trade profits—
who are to be exempt—these are the questions which you
would then have to discuss ; and under what circum-
stances ? Apparently, according to the financial state-
ment of the right bon. gentleman, with a vast accumulated
deficiency. (Hear, hear.) That appeared to me, calmly
considering the statement of the right hon. gentleman,
the result at which we should arrive. Financial embar-
rassment, and instead of the prospect of the extinction
or even mitigation of the tax, the very impossibility of its
extinction, seemed to me to be insured by the policy
which the right hon. gentleman introduced to our notice
on Friday night. We have had a financial system
which was very popular in this house, and which
was supported by the great body of gentlemen opposite.
That was a prospective systemmhey also,thbce c
amoa: and in its extensive
ken it ranged over a wider territory than that which the
right hon. gentleman occupied the other evening ; but the
basis of that scheme was the extinction of the income tax,
and every measure of importance connected with it had
some relation to the year 1860, at which time that extinc- i
was to take place. But the new scheme of prospective
finance has a peculiar and distinctive feature of its own,
not the extinction, but the perpetuation of the income tax.
N(aehr have before in this country suffered under deficits, as,
I V l
e sin ay
t, I ime acnoyu a t country hon.
gentlemen
generally;
at
any rateTh e haveywe ua übeen
y
a cause of great anxiety to this house,
and of deep despon-
dencythisna
g e or
af e
n t them—thatan
d.
misfortune.
they
though thenyuseangse
exuueptnne cceets odaflty m
istmhea;
accumulated gradually, and,
length,
from their vast dimensions, a formidable and menacing
character, still everybody was obliged to allow that, how-
ever deplorable such a result might be,
it could in a great
degree be accounted for by inevitable causes, We had a
deficiency in the year 1841, which no doubt was to be traced
in:some measure to a reckless reduction of taxation in 1839 '
?