The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

MARCH 12, tB5O

The Tote was then agreed to.
NAVY ESTIHATES.

it all its military force. It was true that some of the
North American states bad risen to great prosperity
without having had British troops to assist them. But
it so happened that, during the early history of those
colonies, their inhabitants had been massacred three or
four tirees before the settlement bad been firmly estab-
liehed.—(Hear, hear.) He confessed he should have
been afraid that, with a population of 100,000 natives of
a very warlike character in New Zealand, the English-
men there might have been similarly massacred, if
they had not enjoyed the protection of a military force.
Mr. J. B. SMITH said that, in his opinion, the
Crown lands ought to be retained by the Crown until
the colonies agreed to pay their military and naval
expenses.
Sir J. WALSII said that the Hon. Member for the
West Riding of Yorkshire had said he did not under-
stand how these Members who should then vote against
the motion of the Hon. Member for Montrose could
vote on the following (this) evening for the motion of
the Hon. Member for West Surrey (tlr. H. Drummond).
But motions of that description should be judged upon
their own merits. Ito readily admitted that there
ought to be as much economy practised as seas con-
sistent with the due discharge of the public service.
But the party with which be had the honour to act
was not a popularity-hunting party. They believed that
as her Majesty's Government had already t ffected large
reductions in the establishments of this country, and as a
certain force was necesssqry to the due performance of
great public duties, they did not think that in the pre-
sent circumstances of this country and of Europe they
ought to adopt that proposed reduction of 16,000 men.
Perhaps tho ~,Hon. Member for the West Riding of
Yorkshire would allow him to allude to an expression
which had been imputed to him in the public journals.
The Hon. Member was reported to have said that by
some purely pacific process he would crumple up !he
empire of Russia. He wished to know if tho Hon.
Member still thought himself capable of performing
such a feat. The Hon. Gentleman had some experience
of the means by which the prosperity of a great empire
was crumpled ; and he (Sir J. Walsh) believed that if
the Hoe. Gentleman were allowed to go to Russia, and
carry on there a system of political agitation, be might
succeed to some extent at least in accomplishing his
object. But he did not think the Hon. Gentleman would
try the experiment ; and for his part he only wished ho
would.
Mr. F. AIAULE said a question had been put to him
by an Hon. and Gallant Member opposite, to which he
wished to give an answer, in order to prevent the pos-
sibility of a mistake on a subject to which he had al-
ready alluded. He had to sate that it was net at pre-
sent contemplated that the second examination of officers
previously to their being appointed captains, should be
enforced; but ho hoped that that arrangement might
hereafter be adopted. He believed that unless the ad-
vance of the officers in information kept pace with that of
the men, the discipline of the army would be shaken or
endangered. With reference to the question put to him
by his Hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex (Mr.
Osborne), on the subject of clothing, he had to state that
he admitted the importance of that matter, but he should
then offer no opinion with respect to it, as it would be
minutely inquired into and reported upon by the Com-
milt° up stairs. The Committee would decide whether
or not the present practice on the subject should be ad-
hered to.
Mr. lIUME replied. After the great increase which
had been mede to the number of our troops since the
year 1835, and the creation since that period of enrolled
pensioners, dockyard battalions, and other corps, he felt
that he was fully justified in submitting his proposal to
the Committee.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Hume's amendment 50
For the original motion ... 223
Majority ••• ••• ••• —173
The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote proposed was 1,700,0001. on account fcr
def eying the charges of the land forces.
Mr. lIUME said he had done his duty. Honourable
Gentlemen opposite did not appear to be advocates of
financial reform, and as ho was not likely to be sup-
ported in again dividing the House, ho would not occupy
their attention further.

Mr. HERRIES said the present mode of proceeding
was a repetition of the course pursued last session,
and he considered it a most inconvenient mode of dis-
patching the public business, for no opportu-
nity was afforded of discussing the propriety
of different it ems of expenditure. Ile should like
to know if there was any probability that ti o
investigation of the Committee up stairs Iv ould liai to
any material reduction in the votes. He thought the
attention cf the Committee of the whole House ought to
be directed to the reduction of the expenditure, but con-
sidered the present mode of proceeding had a direct ten-
dency to defeat the object.
Lord J. RUSSELL agreed that if the present course
was taken every year it would be objectionable; but the
Committee reported from time to time, and it was dc-
siratle to wait for the report. With regard to the navy '
estimates and the ordeance, they were placed bef)re the
Rouse is the ordinary manner.

Sir H. WILLOUtjHBY inquired why there had been
an increase in the vote under the head of " move ment of
troops" to the exteLt of 14,0001.?
Mr. F. MAULE said it had been considered de-
sirable to effect a general movement of the troops during
the past year. L would be ( xtremely inconvenitut to
keep them three years in the same quarters, and the
increased expenditure had been caused by the general
nalrement.

Sir F. BARING rose to make hii statement on the
navy eatithates, when

Captain HARRIS objected to proceed at so late an
hour of the evening.—C Oh, oh!" and cries of" Go on
Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be a disappoint-
ment to the House if the financial statement were not
made on Friday ; and if the navy estimates were not
taken on that night, it would be impossible that it could
be then made.—(Hear, hear.)
Captain HARRIS hal understood that a full discus-
sion of the navy estimates would be permitted before
Easter.

Mr. J. A. SMITH would move that the Chairman
report progress.—(" No, nu! ')
Mr. HUME asked what this statement had to do with
the budget? The budget could be proceeded with per-
fectly well without it.—(A laugh.)
After a few words from Mr. GOULBURN,
Sir F. BARING said he would only take a vote as to
the number of men, and not the wages.—(Hear.)
Captain HARRIS, with great deference to the lion.
Gentleman, must say that it was a very unusual course
to go at once from one C)mmittee to another.—(" No,
no.") He would only say that by this proceeding he
was debarred from making a statement that he wished
to make on the question " that the Speaker do leave the
chair," with reference tl manning the navy.—(" Go on,
go on.")

Sir F. BARING then proceeded. The vote which he
had to propose to the Committee was a vote fixing the
number of men at 39,000, and in doing so he would, as
was usual on such occasions, bring before them a state-
ment of the general features of the different votes to
which he would hereafter have to call their attention.
The first vote to which he had to allude was one that
he should bring forward with the more regret if ho did
not entertain the hope that it would be the last vote of
that character that the Committee would be called upon
tc make—ho meant the rote f.ir making up the deficit of
a former year.—(Hear, hear.) He would ask them to
vote for the deficiency of 1848-49 the sum of 211,0001.,
by which in that year the expenditure had gone beyond
the estimates. This the House was aware had occurred

on many previous occasions; and it would perhaps be re-
collected that the late First Lord of the Admiralty
stated last year that the deficit was likely to be from
250,0001. to 260,0001. It had not, however, reached that
sum. He had always been of opinion, on whatever
lido of the House ho happened to be, that the mode of
making up by the votes of a subsequent year the deficiency
of firmer estimates was a must unfortunate course
to pursue; but it was a course not uncommon of late

years. O❑e of the causes from which this arose was
the insufficiency of the sum voted fur the number of
seamen borne. All who were on the Committee of 1848
were aware that this incorrect mode of laying the esti-
mates came on very gradually, the evil being very small
at first, but becoming serious and important in the end.
—(Hear, hear.) The sum voted for the number had
been constantly below what was really necessary; besides
which it was well known that the vote for wages was at
hest but a very louse statement, merely an approximate
estimate, and that the excess expended over the esti-
mate was generally ♦ery considerable.—(Hear, hear.)
It was also to bo noted that in 1848, when the estimates
were proposed, the House having received them was so
adverse to their passing that lower estimates were
brought forward. The Government were anxious, as
far as possible, to come within the lower estimates thus
made, but it was found extremely difficult in so short a
time as was allowed them to reduce the expenditure to
the extent required, and the rtault had been that the

expenditure, though below the general estimate,
was not below the estimate subsequently given
in. These things would in some measure account
for the deficiency now to be made up ; but he
was happy to say that this course would not be pursued
on a future occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He was able to
state that though there had been expenses they were not
prepared for, yet there would be a surplus for the year
1849-50 such as would enable them to meet in some de-
gree the deficiencies of 184 S-49. He would now proceed
with the general statement of the estimates. He gave for
the effective service for 1850-51 a sum of 4,325,086/.; for
the non-effective service, 1,388,6371.;
add to this for the
conveyance of troops 155,0001,, and for the packet-service
764,2361., and they bad a total of
6,613,659/.—(E3ear,
hear.) As compared with 1849-50, the reduction in the
effective service was 406,972!, non-effective service,
5,533/., conveyance of troops, 11,0001.—in all, 624,005/.;
deducting 16,000!. for increase in the packet-service, it
amounted to 608,005/. But that vas not quite a fair
comparison. Comparing the expenditure of 1848-49
with the estimates of 1850 51, the case stood thus:—
expenditure for 1848-49, 7,947,376/.; estimate:
for 1850-51, 6 613,659!.; being a difference of
1,333,7171.—(Cries of " Ilear, hear.") He was anxi-
ous to :fate to the House that great and important
advantages had been derived from the labours of the
Committee of 1848, because it would show that their re-
commendations had not been neglected; and he also
wishe 1 to state that he took no credit to himself for the

reductions that had been made, because they had been
enabled to carry them into effect by the expenditure of
former )ears. But for the expenditure that had formerly
been made in several instances, it would have been

possible now to have made the reductions that had been
effected. Taking the three votes together—namely, for
men, wages, and vic'u 11ling, the reduction inconsequence
of the proposed reduction cf 1,000 men would be about
50,0001. The Committee recommended that an altera-
tion should be made in the mode of estimating the wages
of the men which bad been for many years adopted.
That which was considered a great source of incorrect-
ness had been altered, and the estimate for the last year

was made in the mode introduced by his Right Hon
Friend (Sir J. Graham) when he was First Lord of
the Admiralty, to which it was found convenient again
to have recourse. The next and most important point
was that the number of men borne on the books should
be kept within the number voted by Parliament. To do
that without any deviation was almost impossible. The
most attentive Board of Admiralty could not always
bring the number of men within the vote. But so far as
the last year was concerned they had been able to carry
out that object, and with the exception of the first month
it would be found that the monthly returns of the num-
ber of men voted had been below the number voted. It
was for the purpose of attaining that end that the Com-
mittee recommended monthly returns, which it would
be found had been accordingly adopted. It was pro-
posed to make a reduction of 1,000 men in the marine
force. But in speaking of the number of men to be
employed he must be permitted to observe that that was
a subject in regard to which, to a cei tain degree, con-
fidence must be placed in the Government. It was not
easy to give all the particular reasons why the Govern-
ment should fix upon any certain number of more That
must rest a great deal upon circumstances which it
might not be convenient to st ite. But he could say, th t
on the Ist of Apri', 1848, the number of seen actually
borne on the books was 46 000, whereas the number
voted for the present year was 35,000 men; but though
46,000 men were borne on the books in 1848, yet 43,000
men only were voted that year. Under present circum-
stances the Government had carried the reduction as far
as thee could consistently with the efficiency of the service.
'The Committee might wish to learn the distribution of
the reel. There were in the East Indies, China, and
New Zealand, 2,748; Cape of Good Hope, 793; Africa,
2,452; South-Eastern America, 993; Pacific, 2,618;
North America and West Indies, 1,877; Me literranean,
7,959; Lisbon, 3,096; home ports (Ireland and Scotland),
5,130; packet service, 583; surveying service, 852;
troop-ships, particular service yachts, 762; ordered home,
or paying off, 1,310; and fitting out, 1,651. Intimately
connected with the distribution of the men wes the
number of ships in commission. From the Ist of
January, 1850, the total ships of the line in commis-
sion was 13; adeaneel an ordinary 58; build-
ing 15, of which three were ready to be launched.
There were frigates in commission 9; advanced an
in ordinary 58; building 8; and three of which
were ready to be launched. Vessels like frigates in
commission, 92; advanced and ordinary, 79; building,
4; of which there were ready to be launched, 1. Of
steam-vessels there were in commission 88; advanced
and in ordinary, 68; building, 11—and of which there
was one ready to be launched. So that there were
202 ships in commission ; 263 advanced and in
ordinary, and 38 building • and 6 of these ships
were reedy to be launched. Before quitting this
part of the subject he would state that it was the inter-
tion of the Government to reduce the number of officers
in the marine corps in proportion to the number of men
that were reduced. A certain number of captains
would therefore retire. It had been thought advisable
to select for that purpose those officers who
were at the head of the list, and to rillow them
to re:ire on full pay rather than tike the young
captains and pace them on half-pay, and to
be recaTed afterwards on service. This would
add to the efficiency of the corps, and would be fi It as
a fair portion of feeour to the marine. With regard to
the victualling department, there would not only be a
reduction by reason of the number of men being re lured,
but also in consequence of the cheapness of provisions
enabling the Admiralty to enter into more favourable
contraete There was one subject of deep interest to the
whole service, but which he was not yet prepared to
bring before the Committee—he meant the question of
grog. It had occupied the attention of the Admiralty for
same time; and the question had been laid before a com-
mittee of naval officers; and he hoped before long to
lay the result of their labours before the House, and to
be prepared with some proposal on the subject. The
next vote was that for the Admiralty-office in which
also there was a reduction. The Committee had recom-
mended that the number of those holding office in that
department should be fixed by order in Council, and that
no eloess of salary should be taken without the sanction
of the Treasury. This plan had been adopted in effect,
though not exactly in words. The Admiralty had gone
back to the old system of having the e,tiblishment fet-
tled by order in Council. The Committee had observed
that a large qua-16v of extra work was done by the
clerks of tLe office, and they recommended that the
system should cease. That recommendation would be
acted upon; at the same time, it must be observed that
when so many returns were required to be made to
Parliament, it was not possible to get them ready with-
out the assistance of extra clerks. Ho could, however,
state, that during the last year ten clerks had been re-
duced cot the Admiralty, at Whitehall, and at Somer-
set-house. Another arrangement had been made.
which was much in accordance with the opinion of the
Committee, and by which the whole steam de-
partment was placed under the control of the Surveyor
of the Navy. His early attention had been turned to
this point, and an opportunity having offered of placing
the person who had hitherto superintended the steam dc-
partnaent of the navy in another situation, he had placed
the whole of that department, together with the building
deportment, under the authority of the Surveyor of the
Navy. lie was not quite sure that his Gallant Friend
would be able to perform all the dut'es connected with
that department without farther assistance; still, as his
Gallant Friend was so confident that be would be able to
do so, he (Sir F. Baring) lead bowed to his opinion, and
had entirely abolished the controllership of the steam
department. In t' e surveying and scientific department
a very considerable reduction had been effected, particu-
larly with regard to the construction of harbours. He
new came to the dockyard establishments. The salaries
to officers and wages to workmen of the dockyards, both
at home and abroad, he should deal with under one
head. Upon the estimate for that head of the present
year, as compared with that of last year, there was a
reduction of 81,00 e/ ; and, as compared with that
of le4B-9, 130,0001. The whole of the yards at
home had been examined and the expendi-
ture checked by the Lords of the Admiralty with the
assistance of Sir B. Walker, and by those means a con-
siderable reduction had been effected. Abroad the work
was not quite so pleasing, but the Admirals on the sta-
tions had been required, either themselves to go into
the different items of expenditure, or to appoint a com-
mittee (f officers for the purpose; and in that way each
yard abroad had been examined and reported; and the
result had been some small repuction. He would state
the numher of workmen employed in the dockyards on
the Ist of April, 1848-9, ss compared with the number
for the Ist of April, 1849-50. The reduction began on
the Ist of January, 1848, when there were on the esta-
blishment 9,290. On the Ist cf April the number had
increased to 9,519; on the Ist of April, 1849, it was
9,630, and on the Ist of April, 1850, it would be
9,621. In addition to that number there was an im-

mense number of hired workmen not on the establish-

ment. Oa the Ist of January, 1548, the total number
of those on the establishment and those who were not

was 12,218, on the Ist of April, 1849, 11,430; on the lei

, . .
of Apiil, 1849, 10,142, and on the Ist of April, 1850,
the number estimated was 9,621; and there were also

some temporarily employed as spinners for parti-
cular dockyards, but that would terminate when that
particular work was over. The number so employed
was 420, making for the Ist of April, 1850, 10,041, being
a reduction cf 2,177, as compared with the number on
the Ist cf January, 1848. Again, on the Ist cf April,
1849, the number of men employed in the factories at
WooNich and Portsmouth was 1,856. The number prc-
posed to be taken this year was 1,155, being a reduction
of 701. He did not mean to say that in future years
there might not be some further reductions under the
same head, but for the present he considered that 2,000
workmen being reduced since the Ist of January, 1848,
and 700 in the f ictories since the Ist of April, 1849, was
as far as he could go with a due regard to the efficiency
of the service. The recommendation, indeed, of the
Committee had been, that these establishments should
be fixed by an order in Council. Since the estimates had
bee❑ framed the Government bad been enabled to enter

into a contract for the packet service between Kingstown
and Holyhead upon reaeonable terms, part of which
was that the parties should hire the Government fac-
tories at Holyhead; and consequently, so far as the Go-
vernment was concerned, there was no danger to the
packet establishment. Another recommendation
proposed by the Committee and strongly urged
by them was one tho justice of which
be fully admitted was incontestable. They recom-
mended that in the selection of officers for superinten-
dents of yards the Government should not think it ne-
cessary to confine themselves to the older officers of the
service, but should select those who were moat fitted for
the duties. lie was well aware that in adopting that
recommendation he had disappointed the expectations of
many gallant officers, but he had felt it his duty to carry
that recommendation into effect, knowing that there
was nothing upon which the efficiency of the department
and the expenditure so much depended as on the eye of
the superintendent of the 3 arde, without which all regu-
lations would be useless. He now came to that part
vuoptoen.
which was one of the most important votes—the store
ar-triheextCreommemlthat subject—the
part made
ofa recommendation
supply of oak. The supply had been practically mo-
yittedeiffilican
d for the present year there had been
was dead, an
mo-
nopoly in the hands of a certain party. That party
a contract with a new party. The reduction
in this vote had been very considerable. The
8-8 599/ being a reduction,
vote for this year was ,
as compared with that of last year, of 290,270/., and
as compared with that of 1848 and 1849 of
556,0721. The principle upon which the Govern-
recut proposed to act was to take the principal stores as
they stood in 1849, and, calculating on the average ex-
penditure which would be c xpended in the course of the
next year, to take the estimate for that which would re-
piece the amount actually expended. Therefore,
although there was is great reduction, they were not go-
ing to work on the old stores, but proposed to keep the
stores in a wholesome state and leave them as they found
them last year. As to manufactured articles, he was not
so fond of stores as with regard to timber and raw matc-
rish. In the present state of steam machinery it was
advisable not to keep large stores of steam•engines.
Improvemeas were always going on, and he thought it
better now net to expend large sums in such stores.
Wish respect to nest works, as compared with last year
there was a considerable reduction. The estimate for
1848-9 was 626,000:. Fur the present year it was
321,0001., being a reduction of 300,000/. in consequence
of the works which had been carried on at Portsmouth,
ard those which 1 ad been commenced at offer places by
his lamented predecessor, having been completed. At that
late hour it would not be necessary for him to go at any
length into the charges for the miscellaneous services
connected with the navy; but he might say, generally,
that in nose portions of the estimates the recommen-
dations of the Committee had been in great part adopted.
As to the non-effective votes, the Committee had made
two recommendations, which the Board of Admiralty
were enabled to carry out—one of these was, that one
, lieutenant should be promoted for every three vacancies
the other was the limitAtioa of the ;lumber of cadets to