The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-10 00:00:00

T Ff V, !I tT N,

interested in a suit might impennel a jury to try it if he
thought proper. He (Mr. Christopher) thought the
proposed extension would be most beneficial to the
country,and he w maid give it his cordial support.
Celonel THOMPSON had heard ma eminent City
banker say that any man might sue him for 5001. and he
would make no resistance. There might be something
of hyperbole in that declaration, but at all events he
would only say the matter might be made better, and
possibly very much worse, by the proposed extension.—
(A laugh.)
Mr. CLAY could not see, if this extension were con-
ceded, where the encroachments on the superior courts
were likely to stop. He should like to see
the reformation of the laws undertaken by those who
best understood them—he meant the members of the legal
profession, but those members seldom or never came
forward and tendered their services to the Government
with that view. He thought that in a very short time
the proceedings in the superior courts of law would be
so much simplified and improved as to render the pro-
posed extension of the county court system unnecessary.
Mr. B. DENISON had been a little surprised to see
the rapid progress which had been made of late years
in this new system of jtelicature ; and he could not help
urging the House to pause before they consented to the
propoed extension. One of his objections to the Bill
was, that it would do away with a great part of the
benefit of the existing Act. It was proposed to establish
a court of appeal, but if such a provision were assented
to, very few decisions in these courts would give satisfac-
tion. A Bill of this nature was of too great a magni-
tude to be brought in by a private Member, and should,
he thought, have been introduced by the Government
upon its own responsibility. The country had not yet
had sufficient experience of the working of the present
Act, and on that ground he should oppose any further
extension of it.
Mr. MlTCHELLlsupported the Bill, and said the delay
and expense consequent upon a trial in a superior court
was so great that solicitors were in the habit of telling
their clients that they had better be robbed of 1001. than
run the risk of a trial for that sum before a nisi prius
judge. Actions in those courts were seldom or never
tried before two years, and after getting a verdict some
legal quibble might be started, and a new
trial obtained, and perhaps no definite result was ar-
rived at until after the lapse of four or five
years, by which time the property in dispute might, to
use a vulgar expression, have eaten off its own head.
Indeed, so great was the dislike of parties to enter a su-
perior court, that in 99 cases out of 100 they settled their
disputes by arbitration.
hir. HENLEY would vote against the second reading.
If the Bill were passed, it would effectually destroy the
usefulness of the existing county courts, which were
now working very well, for if the judges had to deal
with large sums and important points of law, they would
be compelled to slur over all cases of a minor character.
The number of debtors in the year 1845, before the
county courts came into operation, was 2,047, in 1846,
the first year of the new Act, the number was 3,847, and
in 1848 it had swelled up to 8,784. This showed the
working of the Bill; and he should not be disposed to
second its extension.
Mr. COCKBURN gave his earnest support to the
second reading of this Bill. He could not see any ma-
terial difference between 204 and 501., and when he saw
that these courts bad already worked well, ho did not
see why they should not extend their jurisdiction. It
was said that they were doing away with trial by jury.
He entertained a deep sense of the good which trial
by jury had done for this country: in political cases, but
in trials of property and common law he thought
that very frequently a single judge was a more
efficient tribunal:—(Hear, hear.) With juries which
could be got in Westminster and Guildhall, and in many
of the towns, and a judge of the superior courts presid-
ing, he thought that this country could present the finest
tribunal in the world; but the experience of many years
told him that that was not always the case with juries
which were gut at many of the assizes. They had a
great example in the equity courts, where there were
no juries. Ari objection of this kind was disposed
of by the proviso in the Bill, which gave a right
of appeal to all who thought fit to claim it. There was
one point which appeared to have been passed over by
every Gentleman who had spoken on the subjE cc, and
that was, that with the exception of London and West-
minster, justice was only administered at intervals of
twice a year in the country. It was all very well fur
Hon. Gentlemen to get up in the House and eulogise the
state of the law in this country. Tree it was that it was
impossible that the Character of judges could stand higher
than the character of the English judges did; but when
they considered th e number of the tribunals which existed,
the prolixity of the pleadings, and the fact t'sat the law
was a st sled bock to the great mass of the people, he
thought that was not a state of the law which called for
eulogy—far from it. One of the signs of the times
which he hailed with great delight was, that the most
eminent lawyers were becoming gradually more and
more sensible of the many abuses in the law, and
were ashamed of them. This was why it was
that they saw his Honourable and Learned Friend
the Solicitor-General, and even the Attorney-General,
coining forward as law reformers. He could only say
that he gave his earnest and cordial support to the
second reading of the Bill, which he considered was a
great step in the direction of reform.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought that he
should be wanting in his public duty if, regardless of all
imputations on his motives, he did not state that this Bill,
if passed, would entirely destroy the good working of
the county courts. But first he would beg to say that,
in regard to the hints which bad been thrown out by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Ponte-
fract, that those reforms had long bten under the
consideration of Governmen'. Every argument which
had been urged by the supporters of the Bill bad been
directed not to the sum of 501., but to the general jus
risdiction of the superior courts. He did not wish to
say anything in imputation of the gentlemen connected
with the county courts, but he thought that the clause
relating to the increase of salaries had much to do with
the introduction cf this Bill. He did rot state this

rashly, for ho Leld in his hand a circular addresged by
the clerks of the county courts throughout the country
to the mayors in different parts of V.() kingdom,
e.iclosing a short form c f petition to be presented by them
to the House praying that all officials should no
longer be paid by fees, but by salaries. It was
pretty evident that the question of salaries was at
the bottom of the introduction of this measure.
The measure was so sweeping in its character that it
would not only take away the jurisdiction of the supe-
rior courts over sums between 201. and 501, but would
abolish every local court which existed in the kingdom
for the recovery of small debts. The Bill allowed
the plaintiff and defendant to bo sworn
and examined, and he would ask the sup-
porters of the Bill if they were preptii-e'd to introduce
this principle into the superior courts? Law) ers knew
that i❑ instances where such a privilege had been al-
lowed the plaintiff and defendant had sworn point blank
against each other, and there could be no doubt that the
tendency of this measure, if passed, would be to encou-
rage the crime of perjury. But there was an-
other objection to the Bill. The fact of ha►ing a
judge who resided in the district and a local jury would
be open to the suspicion that partialities might be shown
in the decision of cases. He considered that the Bill
was full of objections, and would be fraught with gre.-3
danger if put into operation, and begged of the House
to pause before it gave an assent to the second reading.
Mr. AGLIONBY gave his cordial support to the
Bill, and bore testimony, in his own person, to the grie-
vous effects c.f. the present system of adjudication.

Mr. MULLINGS could not understand the course
which was taken by the Government with re-
gard to this Bill. He had not been convertel by
the arguments which had been used by the Learned
Attorney-General. He should give his cordial support
to ir, for he considered that it was a Bill which, with
reference to the movements of reform which were abroad
at this day, was a step in the right direction. He
thought it would confer a benefit upon the public at
large.

Mr. IIUME wished to remind the Attorney-General
that he had not answered a question put to him, whether
he would advise a client of his to go into the superior
courts fir the recovery cf a sum of a smaller amount
than 100/. lie (Mr. Hume) should support the Bill, be-
cause he thought it would do more for the public for the
saving of time, trouble, and expense in law proceedings,
than any other measure. He was astonished at the Go-
vernment for opposing themselves to such a measure as
the present. He bored that the House would overrule
all the technical objections which had been raised
against it.
Mr. FITZROY replied. He was quite ready to submit
his Bill to all the suggestions which had been thrown out
during the present discussion; all he asked the House
was to confirm the principle of the Bill by passing the
second reading. He could not allow the Attorney-
General's slightirg remark with reference to the feeling
of tlos country on this Bill. There was no doubt but
that it was a subject on which the country at large felt
very strongly, and he was convinced that in bringing
forward this measure he was acting in accordance with
the expressed wishes of the country.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading of the Bill 144
Against it
•• ••• ••• 67
Majority for the second reading
77

On re-entering the gallery we found
Mr. HUME inquiring whether, after this demonstra-
tion of the feeling of the louse on this subject, the
Government would persevere in their opposition to it?
Sir G. GREY said that he should certainly feel it his
duty to oppose the increase of salaries proposed by the
Bin, but he could not state what further opposition it
would meet with from the Government.

PUBLIC LIBRARIES AND MUSEUMS BILL.
Mr. EWART moved that the House should go into
committee on this Bill.

Colonel SIBTIIORY thought the poorer classes had
already rates enough, without imposing fresh ones for
the purpose of recreation and entertainment. This Bill
would be partial in its operation; it would be bene-
ficial to people redoing in, and in the vicinity tf, large
towns; but the per pie residing in the agricultural dis-
tric4 would not be in a situation to avail themselves
of it. He of jc.cted to the principle of the Bill,
he did not know how far it might go, and he would move
that the House resolve itself into a Committee on this
Bin this day six months, and he would Like the sense of
the House on that question.
Mr. NEWDEGATE granted that it was most desire-
ble that the means of information should be supplied to
the people; but he thought it most . unwise tax the
people is boroughs or counties for purposes not
of immediate necessity. He would, there ore, oppose
the Hill, believing that it was undesirable to introduce
such a measure at a time when agricultural distress pre-
vailed so extensively, and which distress was rapidly
spreading towards the towns.
Mr. STANFORD thought it was objectionable that
the ratepayers in a borough should have only ten days'
notice of the intention to levy a rate for the put-
poses cf the Bill, as was proposed by the Bill.

LONDON,'

He did not, however, object to the spirit or principle
of the Bill. He thought it was an oversight that the
Bill did not provide tha; the libraries and musr.ticias
be created under is were to be open to the public tor av:y
.3.tated periods. When the Bill went into Committee he
sheuld move an amendment, that every rector, vicar, or
incumbent of a parish in which it was sought to intro-
duce it, should be an 6v-officio member of the committee
or council of any public library or museum established
under the Bill.

Mr. HUME supported the Bill.
Mr. LAW objected to the principle of the Bill, because
it taxed the more influential inhabitants of a borough for
the establishment of a library for the benefit of the less.
influential inhabitants, to be placed under the control
of the town councils.—(Hear, hear.) lie thought it
was time enough to go into Committee on such
a Bill this day six months, because by that time people's
heads would have become cool, and they would be dis-
posed to dispense with the Bill altogether. He would
therefore vote fur the amendment of the Gallant Mem-
ber (Colonel Sibthorp).
Mr. BERNAL thought in no case should the Bill be
introduced into a borough, except with the sanction of
two-thirds of the inhabitants.

Mr. BROTHERTON supported the motion for going
into Committee. The Bill was only permissive, and the
rat ;sought to be levied was only a halfpenny in the
pound. The House was desirous of lessening taxation.
Could they bettsr attain that object than by educating
and elevating the great body of the people? He
considered the measure would be a great boon to the
working classes, and be besides a moans of diminishing
crime throughout the country. It remained for the
members ( f the Universities to oppose this Bill—(Hear)
—who objected to anybody being educated besides their
own class.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BUCK objected to any measure at the present
time that would throw increased taxation upon the
pe-ple, and of all persons in the world town councils
were the last who should be entrusted with carrying
such a Bill into operation.

Mr. WALTER, said the Bill would be of little use if
parties were not allowed to take books home for perusal.
Mr. ANSTEY thought it was unfkir to cast ridicule
upon the Bill because it provided libraries and not books
for the people. The main question was, whether the
introducer bad made sufficient concessions to induce the
House to assent to it, and being of opinion that he had
done so, he would vote for going into Committee.
Lord J. MANNERS complained that libraries and
museums should be placed on a te'ter footing than
churches, schools, and hospitals.
Mr. EWART, in reply to questions, said it was
not his intention to apply the Bill to Scotland or
Ireland, but the insertion of a fow words was all that
would to necessary if the House wished the benefit of
the measure to be ex tended to those countries.

Mr. BRIGHT thought that the objectors to this Bill
deprecated that the people should learn, through the
instrumentality of this Bill, things which it would be
better for them not to learn. It had been said
that the agricultural classes would be excluded from
participating in the benefits of this Bill ; but
he would remind the House that those classes
were not called upon to contribute one farthing to the
support of the libraries sought to be instituted by this
Bill. The Bill was only permissive in its nature; he
thought, too, it was most excellent in its object, and he
would give its second reading his most cordial support.
sp Mr. ROUNDELL PALMER could not understand
why Scotland should have been excluded from the opera-
tion of such a Bill. —(Hear.) He had always under.
stood that the people of Scotland were as intelligent as
those of any other part of the United Kingdom—
(Laughter)—and he could not understand why the
people of Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Dumfries—(A
laugh)—and other places in Scotland should be excluded
from participating in a measure thought to be so laudable
and desirable by those who advocated it. He could only
say that he thought it was the wiser course to leave this
and all kindred objects to be supported by voluntary
rather than compulsory contributions.
Mr. W. J. FOX said in one point of view tho Bill
would be exceedingly beneficial in that, under it,
structures would be built which would form a per-
man. nt depository for the books which might
be accumulated as a library for the people in a
town. He had known cases where considerable num•
bers of books, which had been collected by the working
classes with the view to the formation cf a library for
thf it mutual improvemeLt, ir.,d in course of time been
squandered and lost for want cf a place of public deposit.
Having such places of public deposit provided for thew,
the people, so disposed, would be furnished with a greater
inducement for collecting books and objects for
libraries and museum's than is at present supplied.
Mr. MUNI Z said, on the last occasion he voted
against the Bill, but as the lion. Member for Dumfries
had made several concessions to meet the objections
which had been urged, he should now give it his support.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For going into Committee ... 99
For the amendment ... 64

Majority ••• ••• ••• —35
The House then went into Committer, Mr. BERNAL in
the chair

Mr. EWART moved the following amendment:—ln
clause 1, line 13, after the words " it shall be lawful,"
to insert " for the town council of any municipal
borough (the population of which, according to the last
account taken thereof by authority of Parliament, ex-
ceeds ten thousand persons), for the purpose of determi-
ning whether this Act shalt be adopted for such borough,to
convene a meeting of persons rated to the relief of the poor
within such borough, by notices signed by the mayor, or
five members at the least of the said council, and given
three clear days at least before such meeting by fixing
the same on or m ar the door of the town-halt of the said
borough, and on or near the door of the church or chapel
cf every parish or chapelry wholly or in part within the
said borough, stating the special purpose of such meet-
iug ; and, if it shall be resolved at such meeting by two-
thirds of the voter. there present, that this Act shall he
adopted, then it shall be lawful for such town-council."
After a short discussion, in which sever..l Hon.
Members suggested that a notice should be published
also in the local newspapers,
Mr. B. I)ENISON observed that many ratepayers
never saw a newspaper, and he, therefore, thought that
the better plan would be to send each a printed circular.
Mr. W ALPOLE suggested that the notice should be
posted upon the town-hall and every church and chapel
in the borough, and inset ted in two newspapers, printed
and published and circulating in the borough, fourteen
cit ar days before holding the meeting.
Alter a lung and irregular conversation, in which
almost every Member of the Committee took part, this
suggestion was eventually agreed to.
Mr. STANFORD proposed an amendment to the
effect that in order to make the rate legal one-third at
least of the ratepayers should be present at the meeting,
and assenting to the rate.
After some discussion,

The CHAIRMAN, at the suggestion of Mr. EWART, re-
ported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Wed-
nesday next.
The Parish Constables Bill was rrad a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday week.
The Exchequer-Als (9,200,0001.) Bill was mid a third
time and passed.

Mr. MIILLINGS moved for a copy of any Treasury
minute made at the times of or relating to the appoint-
ments of Lord Denman and Lord Campbell respectively
to the office of Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench; and
of any letters or written communications which passed
on those occasions te:ween such chief justices and any
Member a or connected with the Government, or on
their resrective behalf; and of so much or any part of
the letters patent granting such office to the Lords
Denman and Campbell respectively, as appointed or
fixed, or related to their respective salaries as such Chief
Justices.

Mr. ITAYTER had no objection to produce any docu-
ments that were public ones, but he must decline any
private ones. If the motion was confined to any
Treasury minute there would be no objection to it.

I Mr. MAJLLINGS was only anxious to obtain the
official documents on the subject.
Mr. HAYTER said that all official letters on record
would be produced.

Mr. MULLINGS said that would answer the purpose
he had in view.

The motion as amended was then agreed to.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Six o'clock.

STATE OF TRADE.
(From the Manchester Guardian of this day.)
MANCHESTER, TUESDAY.—The market has re-
covered what it appeared to have lost in tone on
Thursday last, and the sellers of yarns have shown
increased firmness et the , improved rates of this
day week. But the buyers have held back with
their usual caution, and the aggregate business
of the day has been of very limited amount.
At the previous quotations, however, there has
been a disposition to operate rather more freely for
home consumption ; while, for the eastern markets,
we have continued to experience a very fair demand,
at full prices, for No. 40's to 60's. But the buyers
for Germany and Italy do not seem to gain
confidence at all ; and they have accordingly
taken only such small parcels *as might be neces-
sary in the way of assortment. For 40-inch
shirtings there continues to be a very active
demand ; and, as the makers are generally under
contract, still higher prices are obtainable by those
who have anything to sell. In 45-inch shirtings
there is a larger business doing, and in some kinds of
madapollams also. But printing cloths are quiet,
and long clothe, T cloths, and domestics, exceedingly
dull.
IiCCIIDALF, MONDAT.—We have had another slack
market today ; the attendance of buyers has been
limited, and those few have shown no disposition to
purchase. The merchants have been offering less
money for pieces ; but the manufacturer cannot
afford to take a lower rate, with wool at its present
price.
AlAccLEsrisx.n, TUESDAY.—The last week havirg
been a holiday time, there has been a partial cessation
of business ; but,since the mills have resumed work, we
hear of a better feeling in the market for goods, some of
the manufacturers having received fair orders. In the
thrown silk market prices da not as yet assimilate
to tbatfof the re w material ; and unless an advance
in this article takes place we apprehend a lessened
production—indeed there are already symptoms of
slackened trade amongst the throwsters. The dyers
are only partially supplied with work. The raw silk
market. -remains without alteration.

HUDE USFIELD, TIIESDAY.—There has not been
much variation, if any, in the state of our market.
Since th e last report things have remained pretty
nearly in the same state. There has been very little
doing in ~the warehouses ; the stock, however is very