The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-19 00:00:00

OF CAMBRIDGE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought up a message from
her Majesty, which was t) the following effeot:—Her
Majesty being desirous, in consequence of the death
of her royal uncle the Duke of Cambridge, that
some provision should be made for her Royal Highness
the Princess Mary of Cambridge and the present Duke
of Cambridge, recommends the subject to the consider-
ation of the House and relies on the attachment cf the
House to adopt such measures as might be sultible for
the occasion.
The Members remained uncovered while the message

wai being delivere'.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said—lt is her
Majesty's most gracious desire that the subject be taken
into consideration by the House to-morrow.
The subject was then fix,.?ti as an order of the day for
to-morrow.

ENGLISH AND IRISH UNIVERSITIES.
The adjourned debate on English and Irish Universi-
ties was then resumed by
Mr. R. PALMER, who called the attention of the
House to what had transpired on the last occa-
sion. The Noble Lord (Lord John Rus-
sell) had stated, to the surprise of the
House that it was his intention, without reference to any
vote which might be come to by the House, to
advise her Majesty to issue a Commission, to in-
quire, not into all the universities mentioned in the
present motion, but into the universities of Ox-
ford and Cambridge. They had to deal with two
distinct classes of corporations—the universities which
were corporations of a public nature, nod colleges which
were regarded as corporations of an entirely charitable
nature. With respect to the universities. they were cor-
porations of an unique character, and returned members
to Parliament. In every point of view, the functions
which they exercised were of a public character, and he
apprehended that they ought to be dealt with according
to the rules which governed and applied to public or
municipal corporations. There were two classes of cor-
porations—the civil and ecclesiastical. The universities
were lay corporations, and if that were so, it was set-
tled in point of law, that the Crown had no power to
alter their charters, any more than it bad to alter
the charters of municipal corporations, which could
only be altered by the authority of Parliament. The
colleges were charitable corporations and the; Crown
had no power whatever to institute changes in them, un-
less Parliament should think right to sanction the pro-
posed changes. The Hon. and Learned Member here
went into details of certain Acts of Parliament, passed in
reference to the universities and colleges in the reigns
of Henry the Eighth, Elizabeth, and Mary, and their
bearing on those institutions; but in the case of the
University of Oxford, any change attempted to be made
fell a dead letter, and the changes which took place
were made by the parties themselves connected with
the colleges composing the university. It was, after
those periods to which he referred, determined that tho
universities and colleges were strictly lay institutions,
and that nothing could by possibility confer on the
Crown any power to meddle with those universities and
colleges. That was in the time of Charles the Second.
After that James the Second attempted to exercise a
power in relation to the universities, but the attempt
had been gallantly and manfully 'resisted, and every
bisorical authority down to Macaulay had recorded it.
—(Hear.) It was quite clear that whatever they de-
served to have done with respect to the universities,
they must now come to this House; and the question
was, would it be wise in Parliament to abandon its
functions, and give its assent to act in the manner just
as the Noble Lord proposed. Ho thought it was the
duty of the Noble Lord, and those who with him
proposed the opposite course, to come forward
and state explicitly what they meant to pro-
pose, in order that Parliament should have the op-
portunity of digesting it, and of considering the course
which it ought to take. If the course proposed by Go-
vernment should be persevered in, there would be very
great reluctance, and much ccnscientious scruples on the
part of those who felt a deep interest in the universities,
to give voluntary information. Why should this Com-
mission issue at all?—(Hear, hear.) Where was the
necessity for it?—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had said
there had been inquiries into other corporations of not
less importance than those of the universities, but he
(Mr. Roundel' Palmer) maintained that even in these
cases to which the Noble Lord had referred, the cases
of municipal corporations, it would have been more re-
gular if those inquiries had taken place under the au-
thority of Parliament; and with respect to the Noble
Lord's own statement en this subject, he thought it so
exceedingly unsatisfactory that he really could not see
on what ground the Noble Lord could show that the pro-
posed inquiry was necessary. He believed that most
impure ant improvements might be effected in their
universities, but he wished to see these im-
provements effected by the parties connected with the
universities, and he felt satisfied that they would be
really f ir better eff.,ctei in that way than by the course
proposed by the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) If new
halls were opened in the universities, nothing could be
easier than to introduce a new sys!etn, and diminish the
expense of each class of students. Did the Noble Lord
propose to do that by the contemplated ComtnisiJn ? It
apps tired to him that he intended no such arrangement.
It was not demanded by public opinion. He was sur-
prised to hear that the Noble Lord, in his proposal of the
Commission, was influenced by a desire to
co-operate
in the arrangements of education given at the univer-
sities by the local authorities, The Noble Lord
evidently had been misinformed as to the actual ar-
rangements of the colleges respecting education, and
the bearing of the statutes on the subject of study.
Nothing could be more large or liberal than those sta-
tutes. Was Parliament then to be asked to dictate the
number of lectures for the students, and the mode in
which they were to be delivered ? Under the Bye-

tern adopted at Oxford, some of the sliest men of the
day had been produced, including many of the Noble
Lord's most distinguished colleagues. No change or in-
novation was required, and no disturbance of the exist-
ing foundations of the universities would tend to any
good. What they really wanted was, not a commission,
but a better means of giving scope to the intentions and
spirit of the founders. A just interpretation cf the
statutes would always he found to recognise the► utmost
liberality of sentiment on the part of the founders. In
dealing with this question, they should not forget what
the colleges had done and what the Crown had not done.
They had spontaneously adopted a liberal interpretation
of the de,ires of their founders, and opened their doors
to merit as widely as they consistently could. The
Crown, on the other hand, had allowed the power of
visitation, which it possessed, to fall, comparatively speak-
ing, into abeyance. It simply acted as a judge of appeal
in cases brought forward by persons who considered
themselves aggrieved. If the Noble Lord adopted means
for compelling the visitors to do their duty, then, in-
' deed, the Government might congratulate itself on the
wise and judicious course of exercising the powers with
which the law now invested it. The inlet ference of the
Crown with Trinity College, Dublin, in allowing the
teliosss to marry, alleging their large revenue, showed
the danger of upsetting the dicta of old-established sta-
tuti's. While he admitted that room still existed for
improvement in the management of our universities, ho
, contended that such improveinent could be obtained by
the existing power's of the law, and would probably be
brought about through the desire and tendency to im-
prove which existed in our universities; but if anything
further were necessary, the legal powers of visitation
would be found sufficient to enforce it.

Sir G. GREY thought the inconvenience which gene-
rally arose from an adjourned debate of nearly three
months' stundiug had been considerably counterbalanced
by the moderate and temperate tone adopted by the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman who resumed the
discussion. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman
had referred to the illegality of issuing such a Commis-
sion as that proposed, aad also to the inexpediency of
adopting such a course. As far as the legality of
snch a Commission was concerned, he had only to refer
the House to the frequent instances in which Commis-
sions of a similar import had been issued by the Crown.
He would also ask the House to bear in mind that the
Commission was not to have compulsory powers, as if
such were conferred upon it, no doubt it would be illegal.
—(Hear, hear.) It was simply proposed to limit it to
inquiry, without giving the power of compelling wit-
nesses to make say statements before it, which they
might feel .disinclined to do. Some years ago a coca-
,' mission was appointed to inquire into the necessity for a
ir corporation retorm, Rhich had to deal with vested in-
terests the same as the ono now proposed would have to
deal with, and during the debate on the appointment
of: which, in the other House of Parliament, Lord
Brougham the❑ declared it as his opinion, that the
issuing of such a Commission by the Crown was per-
fectly legal, such being justified by precedent as well
as by the constitutional law of the realm. Several
other Commissions had also been appointed of
a similar tendency. In 1824. a Commission
was appointed to inquire into the state of the educe-
dor al establishments to Ireland, and although that in-
quiry was limited to those establishments which received
Government grants, yet the principle on which it was ap-
pointed was similar to that on which it was sought to
establish the present Commission. It was unnecessary,
too, that he should refer to the Commission which was
appointed to inquire int) the Scotch universities, first
into all of them, and afterwards into some particular
ones. Those Commissions obtained much information
in the course of their inquiries, and which had been of
great importance in placing them on a better footing.
In 1830, under the Government of the Duke of Welling-
ton, another Commission was appointed to inquire into
the revenues derivable from the Irish benefices.
Another was appointed in 1832, as respected Eng-
land and Ireland, to inquire into the revenues of

the episcopal sees and the ecclesiastical benefices
in those countries; and another in 1835 to make
inquiry into the revenues of the Established Church
in England and Wales. In all these cases he believed
that some difficulty, as to parties not being com•
pelled to give evidence before these Commissions unless
they should deem it proper to do so, was to be met and
overcome; but still the information those Commissions
obtained was most important, and when once issued,
those Commissions found but little difficulty in eliciting
the information they required. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had admitted that the Crown had a right to
issue a Commission of inquiry into a lay corporation, ex-
isting under a charter from the Crown, and the Com•
mission now claimed having no powers to alter the con-
s:itution of the bodies, their inquiry was to be directed
to, or to curtail them of the powers they now en-
joyed, the general rule of law would not by conceding
such Commission be at all interfered with.

Mr. R. PALMER said, as a general rule of law, he
did not diipute that the Crown had the power to issue
inquiries into such cases; but he denied that there was
any similarity between the two.

Sir GEORGE GREY—At all events, under the gene-
ral rule of law the abstract principle was in favour of the
issuing of such a Commission. In 1718 a Commission
was appointed much similar to the one now moved for.
The case which originated it was referred to the Privy
Council, and it was then decided that the Crown had an
undoubted right to visit the universities referred to, and
a Commission fur doing so was accordingly issued. As
to the expediency of issuing such a Commission, be
thought the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had himself
adduced ample reasons for doing so, for he had stated
several important alterations which it was necessary to
make iu those universities, but which it would be impos-
sible to do without full it.quiry into the subject, and for
carrying out the inquiry a Commission was absolutely
necessary. He would be the last man to advise such 11
course, did be conceive that it would tend to impede
those improvements which were necessary in the univer-
sities, or should it be calculated to bring any charge
against the heads of them. He had too lively a feeling
of the benefits he had derived fcom them while under

the tuition of those men, to take any course
which would tend to those results. if ho had not
derived more benefit than he had it was his own, and not
his teacher's fault; but at the same time he could not
shut his eyes to the fact that reforms were wantsd. It
was, however, in no hostile spirit to the universities that
this Commission was proposed. As to the heads of
those universities being precluded from giving their evi-
dence on oath, he did not think that was correct, as
within his own experience the University of Cambridge
had made application to have their statutes altered, and
the heads of that university were not precluded from
giving their evidence respecting them. After, however,
what had been stated by his Noble Friend at the head of
the Government, the course he felt called upon to ask
the. House to pursue would be that they should adjourn
the debate until that day three months, and he therefore
moved accordingly.
Mr. JOHN S fUART said he regretted the course the
Right Hun. Gentleman had announced his intention of
pursuing. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assumed
that everybody admitted the legality of the Commission;
but he had an amendment on the paper in respect of it,
upon the discussion of which he would show that the
course proposed was totally illegal. He would, there-
fore, ask the Right lion. Gentleman to withdraw the
motion he had now made, and allow him to take a dis-
cussion on his amendment.
Sir G. GREY said he should be sorry to prevent the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman from introducing
his amendment, and be should in the mean time with-
draw his motion in order that he might introduce it; and
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, having stated that his Right
Hon. Friend would renew his motion at an after period
of the debate,
Mr. STUART introduced his amendment, which was,
that any advice given to her Majesty to issue a Royal
Commission for inquiry into the state of the revenues
and management of any colleges or halls of the two
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, not being of royal
foundation, tends to a violation of the laws and consti-
tution of her kingdom, and of the rights and liberties of
herlMajesty's subjects. Such Commission as that pro-
posed would have no power of extracting the truth, for
it had been admitted that it could not compel people to
give evidence before it; and, therefore, what would be the
use of it? The gentlemen connected with those uni-
versities were as much entitled to their emoluments as
any landed proprietor in the country, and he considered
the proposed Commission illegal on the ground that all
Commissions were illegal which compelled a man to state
how he was engaged or employed his revenue. It was an es-
sential principle in the law of property that no man could
injure the right of another who held property in common
with him. It was said this Commission was not to be
invested with compulsory powers. But suppose it was
nut, were nine men to stand out and not give evidence,
and a tenth yield and give information respecting the
matters in which the other nine were interested, he
should like to know in what an invidious position such
a rnau would thereby place himself ? The Right Hon.
Gentleman had said thut a number of Commissions had
been issued for a similar purpose, but it so happened that
not. one of those Commissions had been appointed to in-
quire into how private property was enjoyed. He had
also stated that Lord Brougham had, in the House of
Lords, supported the appointment of a similar Commis-
sion to inquire into the corporations, but that was not at
all a similar object. Besides, at the time Lord Brougham
was a member of the Government, and was, no doubt, in a
manner called on to support Government measures; but it
did so happen, that the Noble and Learned Lord had
given his decided opinion against the appointment of the
present Commission; and, therefore, if his opinion was
good in the one case, so it was in the other.—(Hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had also said that the Crown had
a visitatorial power in respect of these universities, but
that power was merely traditional, and only gave
the Crown the power to settle disputes when appeals
were made to it from those universities. There was,
however, no appeal iu this case, and therefore there was
no power to appoint a Commission. He did not speak
simply as a lawyer when he said that an ambulatory
Commission of the description proposed had no right to
institute such an it.quiry as that proposed to be adopted
with regard to the universities. They could not, how-
ever, shut their eyes to the fact that the great question
of tno Dissenters being admitted to the honours and
emoluments of the universities, was the object really in
view in bringing forward the proposition. The Hon.
Mover of it admitted it would bo a sort of step to that
result, and the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment did not go se far; but ho stated that the speech of
Lerd Stanley settled the question. Now in his (Mr.
Stuart's) opinion that sp.rech was pretty much like L ird
Brougham's—(A laugh)—and if e Right Ili nourable
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home
Department referral to it he would find that
such was the case. The Noble Lord said, and Dis-
senters said the same thing, that many of these
colleges had property which was held and governed
by their own statutes, and, he added, that he wished
for some information on the subject, so as to
ascertain if the sphere of education could be enlarged.
One of the Noble Lora's infirmities as a statesman was
that he never came directly to his objects, and if he in-

.----------,
tended to
tpnt, do that which was sought for by til?Pi9ll
as no doubt he did,
'the ":
Tiles House and the country that such was his intert.,:;i,
e Commissions, however, to inquire into their
it:a 5,
verities6ion were no: a new project. Iti 1647 a C`Jel,.ol.l,h
the wasstatutes viev, te autteo
why did be not trakly.tea?
instituted by Parliament with a
more atutes of the universities, in order thatreal° soi
v.
cal,. extensive, and a Prime Minister of t d.aeliisic.
enough to commit himself to that proe-s,uosest
Btetrimt his conduct bad been commented on in the str" the
a great hi,torian, for Lord Clarendor.s
.4
per/broke, treivoiti
tfholaltowt3t!eb•Yeisitation which then took place laste. ti11i,761
Oxford, took the aussuaClhos
aoeu
no:
rutTreasurer,,dospxl(3plifcani)uoitrgvxi
eheaginiesrds, , when
antchelslotroodf
bad, in consequence of
eh theigerabld
who, as
and ,s 0 Int eitt
of his nature, taken 5t part 11
the temissioners and Presbyterians, ." mope.
reformthe universities. These uviversities vier! „jell!
to submit, but having met in convocation, tougs'" jib
hey P
guarded with etfhend its 1;111,
prison, t
)00,,
troops and the King in
lisped
~one a declaration denying the povrer of the e'd frots
were fieete 001
office. That,
in consequence of which they
day bu however, could not be done in thet,Poi 00
sorted; tot they
might adopt the expedient eve°,00,34 de'
towards persons whom Anthony P ,s„,(it
scribes as " a pitiful set of men called 101°1; thsl
lac le
netgoo)i It was also said of these Conran yes
ibe re
did they seek to possess themselves o
_..,01
venues yof need W.' nd
the univ • '
e rsity, but they conarne ,bes PI
the fiddl es and destroying the garlands which " efil
, ~ otto ,
in those es Anotee 0
was
mad tablishmeuts.—(A laugh.)
e when times became more libersl, end of Or'
of royal authority,
es in the present instance. tot
Stuart), a lawyer, denied the legsiiti othe
autho?' as
Crown It. Parliament certainly had the Plve! 0' te 011
had not an inherent authority t°
j 637
Ober
a
Commission
asthepresent. I° 16?7 (3101)siv
Commission was issued, and present.
opt to 'us- 'J'
senter in Ma d `
a'
e as resl ‘II.
g • Alen College; but that also 0,0 to ,
and the consequences which followed Were iteeh.ol, 01
That was a college, the endowments of 701 soa "
perhaps the least devoted to pureosee of,e"°,14001111;
any other in eithe ' • - tesoos,
r university; but t dh, rie a
ply with the • wishes of royal authority, an 0 iiiststi 0
Prefer to the passage in Mr. Macaulay's .0
at or
Euoland "public P ogl
we a, , where their conduct and
re described in d glow the
the most eloonent an • h
.- ois,ed .1,0
gunge. It was that resistance vthich este. of
liberties of England, won 00
King as °gland, and led to the exPtl d who r
as
weakwell as his Minister, Lord Sunderign • oe (0 ,
had the Earl of Pembroke in 1647. d'etol
Stuart)to apologise to the Ilouse fori_, asilli'i
them, but
thehecsubmitt.ed that all the authorlsbe oheoloo
issuing ommission • •th biro, se der°
conclude bs b ' 'a
ere
I"
001
reltting his motion to the 0 . 111
of the Rouy ti
iii
Se,
Mr H :r the eg
Hon •B H. DRU m
M _OND thought that 1, rolitl ,
coil do de's;
the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) was right in
.douse upon the advantage derived thrall!, beee 5
ei
of this debate, and the • I-• bleb it hes ore.,
tone with w si 0 one le',
opened, alluding to the speech of the r 0 ' coo
Member (Mr.
R. Palmer), the House mighthe the 101
tulated
_also upon the altered tone taken ,q, foe -„ed
Hon.
in
which
hentleman—a tone so totally differetwoo ol0"0
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. ger° the set
the
guesetion' and, it must be added. ft eooeld
adopted stisselli,so the
10
much -Y
the •Noble Lord (Lord J.
the more Hen moderate this might have beet/ oeetrietlh.est
Gentleman.—(Bear, hear.) Triers-to the,°;o)llf
be some
and confusion in the minds of inanY 9'40 eils'",ioll
intention of these universities.They ss'""
a as the; tbs,
not places f
° Primary instruction. Dot ,e w„ pllbl'C', 0,
of the Goovfernment to do its best to Warn .":031)0110Piti
subjects the Crown generally, agains,t, .4 aeirer6,oo
every kind, and to provide a placeau.
_3 er?„,,
or college, Iti---wner "old
should b or what you lOU ((roc eho
e known to under o an,'-el" th y 6'411
tion
in certain subjects, andg that ',I ste it'ell
receivethe something in the shape of 11 eer- chi Ifri ad
the assumed were duly qualified for the professicl4o,ool
be t° .:e, 10,,1'i09
to be learned, and t°
divinity.—(Hear, assistants of the people, whether in rnedietr,loolo,4o
which the
hear.) Nhether the liu„ to it'sj
the Noble Lord - a the Cr°ll" le te.
had advise litt ' tIO
was technically illegal rf of
or not mattered very 10
the questionCommissio turned more upon the cong°43,lleool)
fact of then,Cand the duties assigned to it, ' proteeithif'
• '0 (Mr' ti°
confessed Commission itself. e
he was some
the
what sce tics], e dto t ifi
culty, as to the effect of it, wheuP he refer° siohs ill,
ceedi'n
had wrhorh, Whigs upon former similar ecu tbe° e.'
what --n a Copy of a Commission sect ota 00:3
they called p"
good old titness,'"l“,..g ()A islifoto
alwa •
1690
s meaning when Whigs were in orocv• • „oite 'of
Inthey sent down aCO wissioo to 117,00,
the
were universities of Scotland; inand the C°;illeciPel'C'lli
fessort° summon, warn, and charge the Pr•-opa sotto
the r'inastere, &c., to appear and ahowerinoo i'll dis
lieges Commission, and like/vise to 511°1 ' - WWI' 1)0
who had anything to object - to, Srol
said principal, professors, &O. t i
dale essors, masters, 01 the of
and give in
acts the saine. 11l A°uethat ,stt 11 ei
Commissioners state. toss"-10,040
come to try if
negligent; to inquire honnym„crisf„ „t.,"„t•tigs f°,14,1"40
they kept in a day, at whwa time,' roi."l ir bow 'ooo4l,rod
discipline they exercised, th 11
-oh
1 eltioe„l4
laws,
&c.; likewise to call for offetentibee le:a r0,13°,
haowws ,
theedrevenues were managed, 80. Ohl i'3o o'' c r
publish ositles
A laugh)—remarked
doubt he must hale "see to - nli
Tory—( how yit IV`" if r 111
appear that the maters' easy
fie the
111'°1
greatest crime w a/ ell A ;
and prefertnents.—(Bear, and a I h•) 4".
indeed, would depend upon the aug
s.oppainte adeo
the same time this should be conPetdrsc°rhed•-;tll,lllpos'eftf
assumed to herself, or that Housesto'itseh• „I•eisperillito°,
inquire how these corporations used thor I°,,cte• tie'
what argument was the Crown itself to be prof 43 bad
,_ ne a u ~,,,,
a commission • •
property?—([)ear, • to inquire as to hoW Oa '4,-ee tot aft.
veryvA per ty
?—(
_Hear, hear.) Th© whole Ins oar to
. much as if the Noble Lord had fallen jet 'PS 01
at/ sle)
into which heads of Gove ts were
this o°r0°r $0 td
fall,
taking upon themselvesnun" of th's 50-opeteAeall
consulting their Cabinets affairs eraoo ° • aor o'
informta them—(Hear, hear)—foreran). 1)
°lea
I °lli
.°I
it se went el ~,
ofh tth a° y one who knew anything of whist ~i ass' tie
a duties of these u • .. or cow" The to
universities, c etelof
sanction any such
versifies were b proceeding.—(lie'
r• heat,)voter 0 e
Milne, by lapses total 109 je th13,0)/0
discharge their
in which th duties to the public Di 1,4" et, "„"ei,,,11',
e public might be benefited--V-e$10" ''''
but the w
with theiray to remedy that was not to go
basbefit), 0
thing we ought
property and their rights.--(0e°600 gill
Roman ought to do was either to oPe° oe t°moo
Catholics nr. e S Colt
grants of V and NODeoDfOrrOist;,, v e for ~
Catholics pu lc money to build colleges, °° Ole rs 1"
cs• and another for Nonconforraists, iv it I" If
the de Pe be ti 1
It wasees and honours of the univerisitio3oool-100
perfectly impossible for them to coottiselii osb'
versifies
after merely as parts of the Churehttrch eatoi
lision they had themselves deet o ed that t'a 03.°10iiirk
and alter that r Ycontaining ally lit 0011,•
fessedent'
moot
enemies to the House,establishment, e ~ set oigh;110 Or if
the argumenttiP°it.—(Hear, hear.) A great fallacy who
0540
this debate of tho Honourable Gent ht bet to i!
th as to the things which ought "I volt 15:
at universities. The two prineiPeetletY(P's,
alludede to were modern history and. ~.--y, 000 t//
guages. With respect to modern hi5i0...40 01,.$ Fble
Drummond)
it. did not exactly know whet :•019$10 $.O
which Whigs
were famous for writing poitic, 1018 to 00
gin they called histories—(A lauelI)--"e°004,100es
with Fox's " History of Jam s," and go esee'etior
ates
meaottthat had come out; and ife the 11°°"teees (I`l,r;
thathe it was very important that, 0 13`00tt;
should taught to the • • genereti° ' Weill'
Drummond) must differ rising ri_si..) , ,f,
it was a from him.---(ewttbfro erys
matter of taste.—(A laugh.) sirs vni PO
modern languages, the Hon. Gentletneo in' age -pee4,
There was a great advantage in the ko°firdi Over',
dern g languageswh to those who had to mi% 0 libel 00,
om they were spoken• but it weg.fe tbe op!.
neous to suppose that you could eler dal eeo Olaf
advantage from the
study of modern laogl2s'fri Op
eient.—(Hear,as to the hear.) There was a little eft. of
eto
guagesobject to be effected by the teecteoreogo4;o
with theat the universities. It had 13:1,0 e I°:s° r
h subsequent use to be ode of t",-,00 11•-e4 t, !),1
than learning to fencel3l rto d'cre 0 l'l'o
with thete o_ _ oe or ti
subsequent • walking. 10% CO sett 01
cause you had learned to fence, tv but l tSely
carte and tierce through ja • 106
not proper the %per , co the
0
Power over your live iOl of • 1
in these exercises. So with- pore 000 roti
the lear ibe
bee
guages; the great advantage was the„tploots ie sos
thereby exercised
other mean in a way in which it ce. pow rig rit
!louse s.
Illustrations might be 0e pPlalid°9
eminently during the last century; let o°' ° 'er4foii
-d le
those
who had been had been distinguishe iiege.lo 001
The knowledge most learned while at C°t• UlStilierli 0
fled, Youw"ge of German bad been Ptlr"le °' /
nowt moo,
ever would find
everywhere abroad well versed greedatenr Vagliebtiee°lltgli'll
PA cli
would find English people wellers versed t,°_,e,rthet steel!!
guages, and the reason assigned broao"-geut -°cll'll
literature a . her, s ho hg
was not
only so much rt° OAO /
purer, that English those 0 rs. i I
was f
necessary or „cos A ocor
exercised themselves in light reading, beta
01: 010)
reading. on the continent was so cerruPti-jier d '. pi
ei
Now, there were many eiccee if 00 oi
at the persons here
1. . introduction of popery pen theft tieljto
light instead of wrong, in point. of Det',,trouegt $ 01
greaterera danger to this count froM the "-:th ttl-,,lefr
Germanminable
literature, filling peoplesry minds,: s'ls
41111iP
e system of neology. if there - i/9 OP °°1)01
which we ought to be
many,jealous, it Y, f gr. ft
sivc
and especially Prussia. 00 k
very much •
disliked . r caille Ole 10
everything that ;0 vise, 00, 0(
quarter.—(A laugh.) In politics fruse'eole °I.,010,01('
treacherous
war; it sa, of all countries during the w"i, or r it, 0
the most base; it f llowed O. gf° tit,
France, 0 we Iha le
according
as it could obtain 5001, 10 eoellifi
It wa, a Minister
of Prussia who was' t",,, bibs -000,
convicted of receiving money to betrtlso the'sole,o4,
Prussia was the great centrefrorn whicu --bog 0.0
of Europewhiela thecame forth. If there was ettstriledVlP,
universities ought most to be ~ the p) a.o'
the suffering German literature to becolo- esis: le
the
was
einstruction of English youth.---(-esci•SeYfe
x exceedingly glad the adourno3Clit i. t- 0 '4°o °l°
04.10 ,011 009
moved.drawne [An HON. MEDIDEja--" That
. . it '• oe
• ] It
Ministers a was to be moved asain, the; V
o opportunity of rememberiog 0 4fect,
thoughts
were best."—(Bear, 111):jel 10
hear.) esoe
Mr. E. BUN
BUIZY • Ithefirst ques" the 11,
the
- r the Crown had salt uire iet° 0 1
t 1 0 14
whi •
eh might
exist
itnhe phower to inclitt
~ witbigit.,
0 4 re,i:c,
remedy those defec's tb
e nuinbitiveeqrtstenet 1°7.190 ere iv
tha"teved that there werey rsec 41ents for 7no, o 0 00(
Power in the creationPof the Coo3lol. 01 co
i reehieltoissi ;000,,
inquiries and report the measure 0. Co le of
was afterwards founded, the fce
Letter , and also on r the itb tl
y which preceded the format:oll o' 0 tot If
oke tO, NI,
c,l
Commission. Now he said, for be ,1,0, be ',.‘ 0
versitiesme themselves, it was most esire,' solo 000'.rf
evrous and grave charges against theni
_si the 0 `bbl
t esugated. He believed that inanCisej ne,i
which were made against them were L'` tioo
neous ideas as t
-0 the nature and eonoute

e°lleges and universities, and the manner in which
they were bound by their f.lindatiops. There r. ere
Welkinformed persons who believed that there
were many abuses that required to he rectified, and that
these institutions should be altered and extended to
Meet the altered state of things. To meet that public
131/int°° he was is favour of inquiry, with a view to
the reform of all proved abuses, and the remedying
of all proved deletes. The neer ity fo such
oeurse had been laid down by
none mossre strorr gly thana by br.
Peaccck, the present Dean of Ely, in his work on
tht'e statutes of the universities; it would be adroitzed
eta more competent judge, or one more friendly to
interests of the universities, could re t be cited. Ile
said that there had been low essential chances ta the
constitution of the colleges and the universities for the
ran
they three centuries, and that the time had come when
n ought to be remodelled in their educational system,
Tmade to harmonise with the existing state of
I
siaeh an inquiry was instituted, he saw no reason why
ay t truld be either so defective in facts, or so one-sided,
11°°. and Learned Member for Norwich had said
w-t would be. The statement that because the fellows,
snilr° were personally interested, might refuse to ge in-
Is-n;ttlati°o, and thus prevent any one of their body ft um
'apine
g the common interests of the body with which
..e
~as connected, seemed to him a v,-ry' sire:tzar'.
the principle was carried ou',
ever to •it would be imoessi e
s, Introduce any reform where the testimony of
likulviduale personally interested was re q rec.
were Wes
fee , however, ono reason why many if the
th ws could not be able to give much information as to
themselves.
funds, and that was bscauso they were ignorant
foeiilaselves. Practically, tho whole malisg•enent of these
he' Was vested in four or five of the resident felloe
elle ot.liers knew nothing whatever about it. As t the
to geu unconstitutior.al nature if the inquiry, he would
tnY„Pothing could he more easy than to make ouch 4°a, when w werewithout any definite or written
teittitties,,titution to guide us on such subjects.
.But the very
it e that mada it easy to make the assertion, rendered
Naafi enn
tended Y Necuit to prove it.—(llear, hear.) He cwonas-
that our only guide under such circumstances
49edent, and he had already refsrred to two precedents,
tinolell,,,oeriled to him to justify and sanction the institu-
did "t this inquiry. on the question of illegality he
aotitt°t pretend tu question the knowledge of the Hon.
e‘earned Gentleman, but he knew that other emi
inertit lawyers held a contrary opinion. Leaving, there-
es see' lawyers
questions of the constitutional and legal powers
se,„7,,ea a Commission, he would ask whether the inquiry
ae- 'tlexpedient? He was prepared to show that for the
en7t of the colleges'and universities themselves, such
'qUiry Ought to be made. It was with no un-
"IY view he was sure that the Noble Lord teed he the je
005 e qUiry. He could as sincerely assure the
th,: It was with no unfriendly feeling he
.supportetd
VraV,P°sal. lle could never forget the university
with
he was so much indebted, nor the college wall
eaninede Lae Was connected, and which had been we
the , t"0 moat magnificent seminary ever erected, for
thstvlttrPose of education. He was quite ready to admit
ten ,u 0 universities were not justly liable to many of
letsieuargee made against them, and also that they had
lte,t-t wade some important improvements, but he be-
lle; et' that their defect was constitutional; that they did
arid Pac's'ess the power to reform themselves from within;
rean-4t if they did, such was the constitution of the
heabodies, that it was hopeless to expect it.—(Hear,
fair / He believed that the Commission was issued in
fosi BPirit towards the universities. If they appealed..
In I:formation its a friendly manner to those qualified
iegß•L'e it, they would experience no difficulty in obtain-
-404 from those best acquainted with their affairs; and.
do s:184,01 information a plan of reform might be laid
Po wolch would at once place these influential and
04ecrful institutions in harmony with the altered state
Iveomillgs which now existed around them.—(Hear.) He
do s Urge on the Noble Lord, that whatever investige-
,
N gat be made should be done in a friendly spirit;
Oef,- the same time, that the Commissioners should not
to
the
in their discretion or in the powers granted
the jr°. lie believed that much good would result from
to op°ostnissiou being empowered to look at the subject
he n' itS bearings. Ile suggested also that it ought to
brejDnhed one—that the two universities should be
hete:rt to bear on each other. Such a Commission, he
leat,ed, 'would be neither unconstitutional or illegal,
bent instead of being inexpedient its appointment
lege, IghlY desirable, for the purpose of clearing the col
hen and universities from such unfounded calumny—of
PoinVng out clearly what were their real defects. and of
dein ',!g out as clearly what were the remedies for these
to ti"• tie sincerely believed that this would all tend
lane: good of the universities themselves, which would
tioeirt theiro suffer from a fair and candid investiga-
la°' affairs. Had the Hon. Member for North
the %hire pushed his motion to a division, and it was
he Itl-.eillY One before the House, he should have felt it to
theee utY, with these views, to have voted for it,
ptetee d
t h ere was much in it, and in the opinions ex-
%led by the lion. Member with which he did not con-
13ilt as the Noble Lord had so judiciously proposed
ter:ll4llY Commission to put and lay the basis fur fu-
Prot, eosei'slation he should most cordially support that
e.
he h :4GLADSTONE said there was one point on which
Whott the pleasure to concur with the Hon. Gentleman
ty-taad just sat down, and that was as to the motives
this i"'eh the Government, were animated in proposing
..t.artihtqeiry, He believed that the feeling of the Noble
'ritediuwards the universities was that of the most
that Y kind.—(lear, hear.) He felt bound to stile
tresstee°aviction at the outset, because the streng ex-
Lord; wilhO.f his opinion against the proposal of the Nob.e
oh an tell he should feel bound to make, did not rest
Yet doubt as to the motives cf the Noble Lord. lie
this ,htertained the hope, that before the conclusiou of
tien,uebate the Noble Lord would reconsider the ques-
heferetild let matters revert to the position they were in
'lnept; no hastily, and in an evil hour, announced the
4,Peenh4lia to i3sue the Comrnasion. After the able
4Netv-11-0 the Honourable and Learned Member fur
IN t, the Noble Lord must see the legal questin
hear elite of great difficuley; and before the debalc
'Leas e.-Losed he believed the Noble Lord would
twee
WOre
f Upon that point. While lie opposed the
f
the re such a Commission it was not from any fear o
-etiae,s' of such an investigation; there ens no reason
keret Casos of the University of Oxford; and he spoke
Pad Yt for his own university, not doubting the same ap-
-411;0 Cambridge.—(Bear.) These was no reason why
the entl'd shrink from the most public examination—on
tedon-lltrarY, he knew that such an examination would
4etartthd to the honour and credit of the body, who were
141, with the management of its affairs.—(Hear,
deliGo Where they might, he fearlessly stated they
seta, nowhere find a body of men mere devoted to the
atheir- newssllleh devolved upon them, more indefatigable in
virteer`"°rlnance, or who were more adorned by all the
Os 44 8 uhieh belonged to them as Christians, as scholarsla ,
tetiettlemen.—(lleer, hear.) Bat this was a matter
kmatils ',,e° private feelings and the interests of indivi-
ut th "re not to be regarded, nor anything, indeed,
Vitere great public and constitutional questions which
4weet"(llved in it. Any Commission of this kind,
bath ter' which they could appoint would be attended
te for'
evils. He did not deny that there might
,e4se
h made cut to justify some Commission of this
tie bur in any case he was prepared to maintain that
ittnission would be an evil, though perhaps a no-
it fIY evil, to avert others still greater. It would be an
ttikota elnt; the shock which it would produce in the rela-
-"ilte-6`ating between the principals and students of
followl'ersity, and the discord which would inevitably
,Nentkr,(4ll that disturbance. Peace and repose were
verriat,';,to, the prosecution of the objects which a uni-
11401hiituaanuilin view, and controversy in any shape could
„et °stile to the attainment of t ose purposes.
ev,titlea,er '°terlaissions were opposed likewise to the
to
local freedom.
Ctpl©
No doubt that was a prin-
'-pl, wed with its own evils, but it was a prin-
.(/' thee,whiah the people of this country owed much
;halted alaiallaoity for self-government.
in
if he were
ehlti N.' Country enjoyed it next in degree he
eitear tat to the off-shoot of their own limbs—the
Pr sta
"411.,/ of america, where, though democracy
tvntltit oCutitBtl,,l there was the greatest liberality on the
110,104, b:_..covernment to encourage those. local insti-
<arc I,"°dowing them with large and independent
Wat?„l' quarters from these general observations to
sa'er -ts.'ers, he would ask his Hon. Friend opposite
teretitlY 114,junaleiSsion of this kind was to be instituted
am
„ealalive cause of local improvement. He con-
tee tie et:' as far as local interests a ere concerned they
ea, tlaie4e.at all. He would admit that of late years
dee tile -eltiev had introduced considerable changes
aice,4 ae'l,,l‘,4e of studies pursued in them, and on the
tie `g her tiengithis attack was made on them Oxford had
tr Us; Sanction to her new statute of examine-
I E:'" It
Irtio that to that statute must follow ether
s%kid je,; not in the university alone, but iu its col-
'o,ire ee,,4,T. The discussion of those changes must
Ist,l4'red t,,erable time, and still more time would be
tas-itve Was attire them; and he would ask whether the
jostle pnrt Let bound to give the time necessary for
ttelklietal-°4"? This Commission, if it was to have a
11;1 that, teat at
,all, was to have a remedial jurisdiction,
itiZIN in tnl,°"4 a matter in which it had not been
linty' Ice Usual way that there was anything to re-
keetN oast 1/118 said that at Oxford, under the
,per
u.,33.!...eta,
mach__cy could not- always get
.competent
ao 343, Inerhe actual work of tuition in the um-
i 14t11.h.--"lear, hear.) That fact, which was used. as
tea eut •
45!. te di in support of this step, he was in a sibtulel-
(l4lo4/3.°ve bY figures. In all the colleges and a s
,1144 itt,‘ trhere were 78 lectors, who had taken 8 5 first
'°lltl classes, pee Itice tea and of these there were only six that
"en University honours. Could it then be'
ed that
etions had
of Ned restrictions at the university
titit!Uitiotirl:!!Petellt men from undertaking the business
lee'lltese,,e_eit was Said, in the next place, that these
i„`lttteeee evens unalterable. That he very much doubted;
su errs °s, before it could be pleaded it must be sittis-
.ees; te_Elasceertained to be a tact. At the most, how-
ti,e4.ts erueew_ seroti9n could only apply to six colleges, and
41 with Jild not assume the "authority to inter-
otitatipa, bevawaturestrictions of this nature. It might,
first
interfere with them ; but did they
to ill the
lot going Loy Lace. inquire whether that work
of nNt th r For the present he protested
r
pi e of competition in the election
s,, ea
_Sua being the one which ought to be oh-
11le to ~7•04w0 it would, in fact, be
quite as unreason-
,l4iieste'r7
Theopen to competition
the office of Prime
only case they cculcl have on their side
et, ibSt the, exigencies of the times rendered those
otlateges nee
ti
it essary; bat his answer to that was—wait
OVtb w 8 shown. by proper and authentic investiga-
te hetie • " the university••
ud?"Y °f the • regulations lagged behind the
times .—(flear.) Even then he con-
Up: need
Ule"'"Bities ceuldsejtillie, that the only way in which the
4tat. Fle did e dealt with was by Act of Parlie-
shrutknrot wish it to be supposed for a moment
thin
baeototoi.._°,o3 the probable consequences of an in-
-11/15e18 atop walsl3lll°ll-4113 principal and broad objection
nor tired to Min he unconstitutional character which
t° deal with attaoh.to it. They were proposing
Coal u"nowyl9B43 universities in a manner which
Itto;caltision was.t " since the year 1686. But if the
The Lia'joute liord proposed to settle this matter in

his own room, and he hal even intimated—certainly as 1
rospectfully as he could—that he di:] not require any as-
sistance from either university. To that lie objected.
The universities were learned' and dignified bodies of
men, endowed with privtleges under charter, and amongst
the zo were stringent obligations under oath not to reveal
any of the internal proceedings of their establishments.
Now. that hcing 50, were her Majesty's Ministers jus tilied
in puittr,g a Commissioner of the Crown in the uncibmitie I
position of having his questions met with a direct refusal?
If they expect-1 to get answers from some who were
disposed to e.,nstrue these obligations liberally, and
whom en that actiount they would receive with open
aims, then t hey would be boding out a premium for
laxity in the binding obligation of an oath. Inde-
pendently of these considerations, he believed that it
was quite illegal to appoint a Commission having for its
object a direct interference with the rights of private
property—and cases had been tried in courts of justice
in which proceedings so taken were not admitted as good
pleadings in answer to charges of illegal acts. Modern
precedents had been cited in justification of this attempt,
and the Rittht Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department had endeavoured to add to the number.
V,.hether those precedents were right or wrong with re-
ference to the question before the House, l.e would not
undertake to say; but he did say that they did not ctnne
rear to a justification of this resolution. The Right Hon.
Baronet had stated that there was an inquiry into the
management of the Scotch universities. And so there
was—a royal Commission, too—but what of that? It
was an inquiry in respect of a visitatorial power, and, as-
suming its legality, what was its composition? It was
composed, first, of the heads of the respective universi-
ties, showing that tho universities themselves were con-
senting parties. Then the judges of Scotland were
members of this C tnamission, showing that they recog

nised its legal existence. But this Commission had no
resemblance whatever to that recommended by the Noble
Lord. It was not a fishing Commission, a roving Com-
mission, but one of the largest nature, having power to
administer oaths to the witnesses, and to require the
production of documents. It was a Legislative Commis-
sion, and recited in the warrant itself that it proceeded
from the prerogative of his Majesty. Now, he contended
that here they were doing no such thing, and that, in-
stead of proceeding to bring the power of the State into
contempt, they ought to proceed by Act of Parliament,
when an opportunity of fair discussion would be afforded
to all the numerous interests whom this inquiry would

concern. The Ecclesiastical Commission of 1835 had
been referred to also, but that was of a totally different
nature, and depended upon the potency of Parliament
to magnify the salaries of the bishop!, and to create
central funds for local purposes. And so far from its
being intended as a mark of disrespect towards the
Church, the Church itself was a consenting party. If
the universities consented he would not oppose the mea-
sure, but they did not; on the contrary, they were op-
posing parties. There were but two other cases that could
be cited as precedents—the inquiry into char ities in Ire-
land in 1824—but that was in the case of charities
which received in the whole, or in part, public
money, and therefore it was impossible to object
to interference; then the other was that of the

municipal corporations. In the case, however,
of these bodies, they were originally represented bodies
—a principle which had been violated in their regard,
and therefore formed a ground for interference. But he
denied that either of these were analogous cases of pre-
cedent. The doctrine now was, that the exercise of the
prerogative in this case was legal, because the Commis-
sion would not have coercive powers. It was said that
the Crown had a visitatorial power, but this was not cf
that character. It was irregular, because it rested upon an
undefined and unconstitutional exercise of the preroga-
tive.—(Hear, hear.) For two centuries, the sixteenth
and seventeenth, the Crown could do what it pleased,
but at the close of that period these powers were defined.
Now, he would esk would the principle of this ibter-
ference extend to St. Augustin's College at Canterbury,
and to the London University? It was urged that the
universities had exclusive privileges, but the University
of London had the same privileges to a great extent.
Well, then, he would ask whether all other colleges
came within the scope of this investigation? Was this
Commission, he would ask, founded on Royal authority?
If it was they ought to let them know what that authority
was.—(Hear.) He thought it would be better to wait
for the lights of experience, and to see whether
the colleges would do their duty, before they issued
this Commissior. He thought that even a defective
management of the finances of the colleges, under a
system of self-management, would be preferable to a
large increase of revenue under a better system estab-
lished by Act of Parliament. In the reign of Mary
Tudor interference with the colleges was frequent; in
consequence learning was never at a lower ebb than at
that tune, because it prevented that tranquillity and
freedom absolutely necessary to the prosecution of
learning. Would they interfere because they were elee-
mosynary institutions? Would it be politic, when there
was such a development of material wealth in progress,
to discourage the application of some portion of that
we filth to other than material objects? If they interfered
with these institutions in the universities, they would de-
prive them of much of the democratic character which
now belonged to them. It was said that Eton was a
little world, the same could be said of the universities.
They were schools of morals, manners, and human ac-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) The House of Commons was the
lust place which should complain of the universities.—
(Hear, hear.) If France left Cambridge behind in the
higher branches of mathematics, and if Oxford took
many of her manuals in Greek and Latin frcin the Ger-
mane, that House was indebted to the universities for
training the to at statesmen which had distinguished them-
selves in the service of the country. The universities
had no season to blush in the face of the House of Com-
mons. If they looked to either side of the House, they
would see the application of the observation. On that
side cf the ilou,e, the great statesman who had so lately
departed, who had been styled the man of the British
Home of Commons—Oxford had reason to be proud
that she had trained him for the British Parliament, and
he could not but regret that he dud not survive to throw
the shield of his protection over these institutions. He
did not, however, attribute an intention to the Noble
Lord of aiming a blow at the colleges. He thought the
friends of the universities would have had a greater ad-
vantage if the proposal had been ma le at an earlier
period of the session, when a lei ger number of Mem-
bers would have been in attendance. lie still hoped that
the Noble Lord would reconsider the question, and not
proceed firther until he gave greater consideration to
the constitutional principles involved in it. He did nut
deny the power of Parliament, when sufficieus reason
had been shown, but he protested against this applica-
tion of an undefined and unconstitutional exercise
of the prerogative, as injurious to the honour of the
Crown, in interfering with the privileges of the univer-
sities which were essential to their health and well-being.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he felt very considerable
difficulty in arguing the question that a Commission
(night to issue on the part of the Crown to inquire into
these universities, for if they admitted any of the defects
of the universities, and cosifined themselves to the state-
ment that there were improvements yet to be made, and
that those improvements might be facilited by inquiry,
and that even legislative aid might be necessary fur the
purpose, they were then met by the Right Honourable
Gentleman who had just sat down with the statement
that there was hardly a case for a Commission, and that
none but the gravest reasons should induce the Crown
to issue such a Commission. And if they pointed out in
the present instance defects that existed, and in which
improvements might be mad, then they were met by the
latter part of the Right Hon. Gentleman's speech, in
which he denounced the Ministers of the Crown as if
they were not going to assist or improve, but utterly to
subvert these institutions, and to deprive them of their
very existence. The Right Hon. Gentleman in the latter
part of his speech went into an excess of protestations
against the intentions of the Government, which was
hardly required from anything he had heard from any
Minister. They might publicly admit that these uni-
versities had been most useful—that large endow-
ments for such purposes were most proper—that the
education of statesmen had been promoted, and
the general learning of the country had been
advanced by these institutions; but when they had made
all these admissions, they were not a bit nearer the
Right Honourable Gentleman's conclusion, that there
ought to be no further inquiry on the subject.—(Hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman, going far beyond the tem-
perate speech made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who opened the debate, would have them think there
ought to be on the part of the Crown no inquiry here-
after except into cases of very gross abuse, that made
inquiry absolutely necessary and unavoidable. To admit
Itch a conclusion would be to admit that from 1815 to
the present time they had been going entirely in a wrong
course—that the various Ministers of the Crown had
abused its prerogative. The Right lion. Gentleman, in
the early Fart of his speech, told them that at Oxford,
where the opinions of Wickliffe were gaining ground,
the fellows of some of the colleges inserted in their sta-
tutes more strict rules against interference, from which
the Right Honourab!e Gentleman proved the moral that
they ought carefully to guard against ill. considered
schemes of reform. He (Lord John Russell) was hardly
prepared to admit that the opinions of Wickliffe and the
beginning of the Reformation were ill-considered
schemes of reform.—(Hear, hear.) He was not
prepared to admit that the Reformation of the time of
Henry VIII. and of Elizabeth were merely ill-considered
schemes of reform by the innovators of that time.—
(Hear, hear.) Bat he did see in those strict and
severe statutes another lesson, namely, that in those
times those who made those severe statutes made
a great mistake in the severity and the strictness with
which they framed the foundations they were then lay-
ing, because by the very strictness by which they at-
tempted to prevent all change they did but make that
change the more violent, more entire, and more sub-
versive than it would otherwise have been.—(Hear,
hear.) Among those foundations which the Right Hon.
Gentleman said ought not to have been interfered with,
were many which wero endowed by Catholic noblemen
and divines, in which they undo provision for the due
maintenance of Catholic worship, and if they had pre-
served unimpaired and unaltered the institutions of those
days, it was the Roman Catholics, and not the Protes-
tants, who had a right to complain of interference.
There war, however, a course of precedents with which
the Right Honourable Gentleman, with great in-
genuity, though as he (Lord John Russel!) thought in
vain, had endeavoured to cope. The Right Hon.
Gentleman could not deny that they had had an in-
quiry into the Irish places of education—into the Uni-
versities of Scotland—into the state of the Irish Church
under the Duke of Wellington's Government—into the
Ecclesiastical revenues in 1832—into the municipal cor-
porations in 1834 and 1835—and into the state of the
several bishoprics in England and Wales, and that that
was likewise an inquiry into the state of the cathedral
chapters. The Right Hon. Gentleman could not pre-
tend that none of those precedents were applicable—he
could only pretend it by saying that what the Govern-
ment proposed was, in fact, not a Commission to inquire,
but a Commission in the nature of an inquiry and re-
, medy, which Was not only to ascertain facto, but to deal