The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-02 00:00:00

moNEY and COMMERCIAL NEW S.

CITY, THIO O'CLOCK
The sales of Cotton, at Liverpool, yesterday, were es-
timated at 10,000 bales, of which 500 American were
taken for export, and 2,500 American and 1,200 Surat
on speculation. The market closed very firmly at ia.
per lb. advance for American and Surat.—Railway
Shares were dull, and prices had a downward tendency.
The accounts from abroad describe the money markets
as being generally easy.
The Banker's Magazine for July, states:—
" Money continues plentiful; and the rate 'of discount
for first-class bills at about three months may be called
at from 2 to 21 per cent. per annum; and there is some
difficulty in finding a sufficiency of such paper. The
allowance by the brokers "on call" is from 14 to 2 per
per cent. We believe that the market may be described
as in a healthy condition. There is very little, if any,
undue speculation in commodities. The dealings in
coffee have nearly ceased so far as extensive speculations
are concerned; and it is to be apprehended that the cases
are few where the result has been satisfactory.
" We are gratified to learn from Germany that the
proposals made by the Prussian Government, for in-
creasing the differential duties of the Zollverein against
sprung
the remonstrances up in nearly all the
pvßerrroi
ytvi
isvnhiege os manufacturedroofusth,
opposition goods,kingdom;has
andis likely to be defeated. A
a
for-
warded to Berlin are of the most decided character."
The indigo buyers are anxious for an alteration in the
plan of " taring the article. They wish, after it has
been in the warehouses a certain time, that it should be
re-tared, as the original tare marked on the chests is
often found to be incorrect, owing to the samples taken
out and the repacking.
A meeting of the Birmingham and Oxford Junction
Railway Company having been convened for the 6th
July, to take into consideration "A Bill to authorise a
sale to the Birmingham and Oxford Junction Railway
Company of tho Stratford-upon-Avon Canal Naviga-
tion," inquiry has been made upon the subject, to which
the following reply (dated 27th ult.) from the secretary
has been received:—
" In reply to your letter of inquiry, I beg to inform
you that the Bill of this session to authorise the sale of
the Stratford Canal to this company is promoted by the
Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway Com-
pany, under an agreement between the companies. It
will not interfere with the agreement between this com-
pany and the Great Western Company, as it is therein
provided
for; and the Great Western Company have to
provide any additional capital that may be required by
this company."
The following aro extracts of a letter from the secre-
tary of the Tours and Nantes Railway:—
" Out of tlie capital called up, 131. on 80,000 shares,
the disbursements have been:—
For establishment of the line from Tours to . _ _

Angers £564,000
For materials, and rolling stock provided, in
readiness for the aectiun from Angers to
Nantes ... 102,000
For workshop materials, tools, implements,
&c., for the service of the entire line
For interest paid to shareholders ...
For miscellaneous ••• ••• ••• •••
For caution money, in the hands of Go-
vernment ... ••• 12,000
For caah•balance in hand and sundry debtors 16,800

... 212,000
... 68,000
65,200

£1,040,000

It will be particularly observed that the large sum of
102,0001. has been already expended fur stock, in antici-
pation of the delivery by the Government of the whole
line to Nantes, which transfer should have taken plao,e,
according to our statutes, on the 27th of November last.
This delay, so prejudicial to the interests of the com-
pany, has justly entitled them "to claim from the Go-
vernment an indemnity, and which the directors are now
pressing upon the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment.

" It cannot escaro observation that. if the proportion
of the receipts from the passenger traffic continued to be
sustained throughout the last four months of our year,
June to September (and they are generally the
best months), this portion of our revenue for the cur-
rent year will appreach, if not exceed, 40,0001. So far,
then, this traffic exhibits an excess above the amount
estimated at the period of the concession (34,0001.),
being about 20 per cenr., and this, too, for the first year's
operations. With respect to the goods traffic, it is im-
possible at all to appreciate its value until the line shall
have reached Nantes, for the very simple reason
(scarcely necessary to mention) that when once the
goods have taken the river at Nantes, the heavy ex-
penses attending their unloading and reloading must pre-
vent their coming on to the line at Angers. To conclude, I
have the pleasure of announcing that negotiations have
been re-opened with the Government f a revision of
our lease, and wit'n the
urosp,ct of itlV:llrablO terms
being conceded to the company."
The Funds are very st,,ady. Consols, 9641 to Hi. New
Three-and-a-Qaarter. per Cente., 98i to 98i; and Re-

duced Three per Cents., 964 to 97. Bank Stock is 209
to 210. Exchequer-bills are 675. premium.
The Foreign Securities are much the same. Spanish
Three per Costs. have been about 37i, and Portuguese
Four per Cents. 34 to 35. Mexican Builds are 30 to 304.
Dutch Two-and-a-Half per Cents. have bt en 57 ex-div.
Peruvian Bands are 79i to 80, Belgian 891, Brazilian
90k, Buenos Ayres 35, and Grenala
Shares are dull still.

The Great Northern line is to he opened in the course
of a few weeks for a considerable distance directly out
of London, and a great deal of anxiety is manifested to
trimatain the influence of its competition upon the North
Western and the Eastern Counties traffic. We may
expect, therefore, to see theie important stocks more or
less influenced by this cause for some time to come.
QUARTER TO THREE.

Consols ...
Ditto Account

... 964

ONE CLOSING
PRICES OF BRITISH FUNDS O'CLOCK. PRICES.
B,:qi a ZitocZ ... .. 209 210 210
3 :.or Cont. Reduced Anus ...... ~... 96:% 97 9634 963/1
'Sow 314 per Cent. Anus.— .... ...... 98 IA I-4 98%
India Bonds. LOON. B7 90 p 90 p
Consols for Account 96% 96,4
Exchequer Bills. 1 Liu. & 2d
• 1,0001. June
S00/. June
Smell, June 69 p

67 p
67 p
69 p

ONE CLOSING
PRICES OF FOREIGN FUNDS. O'CLOCK. PRICES.
lirazilixa Bonds 9Ol/2 91%
Buenos Ayres Bonds, 6 per Cent
Chilian Bonds 6 per Cent ....
Grenada Bonds, 11/2 per Cent lBl4 18%
Mexican, 5 per Cent. 1846, with Coupons—
Ditto, Ex Jan. Coupons ..- 3O )
Ditto, Account
Peruvian Bonds, 41/2 per Cent—
Ditto. Account
Ditto, Deferred .. 3134 34%
laussian Bonds .,.
Ditto,"4l/2 per Cent
Ditto Scrip — 4'?'3 p
Dividends on the above payable in London.
Beligan, 4% per Cent. . .
Dutch *4; per Cent., 12 Guild. .. 57 ex d. 56% ex d.
Ditto, 4 ;,or Cent. Cortitleates — 8814
PRICES OF PAID. BUSINESS DONE CLOsING
RAILWAY SHARES, AT ONE O'CLOCK. PRICES.
Aberdeen
Birmingham and Ox-
ford ;fund., calls duly
paid, or with a guaran. 20
eirmin g, Wolverh'tou,
and r udley, calls duly
pd, or with guarantee 15 ...... 23 2234 ..
3 aching h aro shire
Caledounth
H:a...t Anglian, 251.,.L. ez
E. and L. and D...... 25
Eastern Conxtie,s... ..... 20
Do., New Pref.rer.ce,
CI rer Cent . ..
Ealt Lincolnshire, guar.
6 par Cent.
,ireat Northern
lreet South. and West.
(Ireland)
Ditto, Eighths
(;I,3at Westorn -100 ...... 58 58 58— 18
I. ancw;hire & Yorkshire 100
Lao. Fifths... ll/
Co. (W. Riding Union) 11% 2% 2%
Leeds and Bradford
London & Black wa11...11/. 6s. 3d... -
London, Brighton, and
South C0a,t.... ..._ 103 ...... 83:3;1 ......
Do., New, guaranteed
6 per Cent . —lOO .137 1:: 7
London and N. Western 100 ...,..10914 1057% 10534
Ditto. New Quarters 12 ...... 12% ...... .....
London &S.Wcatern ..100 ... 57 53 . ..... ~,
/a
Midland
_._ _ . . •

30
30t4

11:y,

2914
9%

Do.. 501. Sham ..... 30
Norfolk 100
Do. Ext. Guar. 5 p. ct. 20
North British 125
Ditto Preference
•••
North Staffordzhire 171/2 CA IA
Scottish Central
6Critia Kstitern
Do., No. 3 ....... ...... 30 14 .....
York_ tsiwcas;la, and
Barwick. ..—.
Do. Newcastle Extan. 20
D. G.N.F Preference 9 ...
York and North 51111 and 50
...... 10

18'
4 .),4
6 I/
111.
1 3 ;zi,

14%
9q
4!-Li
15
7';4

FOREIGN RAILWAYS.
Bonlogna and Amiens... 20
Dutch Rh,mish ......... 8 ..... 2 2. ..... ••••
Last Indian ... .....
...... 16 -

61114
2
7%
13%

MINES.
Brazilian Imperial ..... 2414 — ••••••••••
BrazilianCocaes&Culaba 30
Cobre Copper

MARKET NEWS.---(THIS DAY.)
COMONZAL.
SimAn.—The market for British Plantation is firm ;
sales, 650 hbds, including 272 hhds Barbadoes, at
auction, from 35s 6d to 41s 61, being rather
higher prices. 5,600 bags and 25 casks Mauritius
mostly sold with spirit at very full prices ; yellow
35i to 38A 6d, grey 34s to 34s 61, and very low to
fine brown 22s to 23s 61 Bengal sold briskly at
rather stiffer rates, low to good white Benares 37s 6d to
40s 61 The quantity of British Plantation landed last
week at the East and West India Docks was 635 hhds,
G 2 tierci, 120 barrels; there were taken for home con-
sumption 1,086 hhds, 184 tierces, 288 barrels. The
stock in the same places is 1,971 hhds, 1,603 tierces,
3,747 barrels.

COFFEE.—The market is firm, and 300 bags Planta-
tion Ceylon, 50 bales of Mocha, and 160 half-bales
Matabu- sold well, the former at 52s 6d to 53s for f fine
ord; Mocha at 57s 61 to 60, 6d for clean garbled of
mid quality, and Malabar at 42i to 46s for good to fine
ord. Privately 3,000 bags of good ord Native Ceylon
sold at 433 per cwt.
Rum.—The quantity landed last week at the East and
West India Dccks was 238 puns. There were taken fur
home consumption 206 puns, and exported 151 puns
239 hhds. The stcck in the same places is 15,171 puns
1,378 hhds.

TALLow —There is not much doing.
llicE.—Fine white Bengal realised 12s, being rather
dearer.

SPlCES.—Sumatra Pepper sold steadily at 21d to 2P
per lb.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 1.
MR. W. S. O'BRIEN.

On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. ANSTEY rose to bring forward the motion of
which he gave notice, respecting the opening of Mr. W.
Smith O'Brien's letters from Vau Diemen's Land. He
said he felt a delicacy in bringing under the considera-
tion of the House the case of Mr. W. S. O'Brien after
what had already taken place in respect to him. But he
knew that there was a strange feeling out of doors upon
the subject, and much dissatisfaction was experienced re-
specting his treatment in Van Diemen's Land. The
question he had brought before the House was simply
this—was a person in this country entitled to receive
from a convict in a penal settlement in Van Diemen's
Land a letter that might be addressed to him in his offi-
cial capecity? He limited the question to that. He did
not nut, it on the barren ground of the privileges of Par-
liament. Mr. Smith O'Brien refused a ticket of leave,
and was transferred to Maria Island, where ho consi •
dered he was treated with great hardship, and thereupon
addressed a letter to him (Mr. Anstey) complaining of
his treatment. The letter was addressed to him in
the House of Commons. In cases of letters from
Van Diemen's Land, the bond and free ware placed
on terms of equality, and it was alike illegal to detain
or open the letters of either. The case was different
from that of England, where letters might be opened by
the gaoler. It was absolutely necessary that there should
be unrestricted communication between convicts and
persons in this country, for if such were not permitted
the most horrible abuses might be committed with im-
punity, without the chance of exposure or of ameliora-
tion. There was the power of opening letters at the
Post-office, but it must be only upon oath. But to jus-
tify that there must be the oath that he (Mr. Anstey)
was a suspected person. If such were the case he called
for inquiry. Now, he found the letter was opened by
the Lieutenant-Governor, Sir W. Denison, who fairly
admitted that he had opened it for the purpose of seeing
what complaints or misrepresentations Mr. S. O'Brien
might have made as to his treatment. He received the
letter subsequently at the Colonial-office, and he ad-
mitted that nothing could be more fair than the conduct
of the Colonial. office here. What he complained of was
the conduct of the Lieutenant• Governor. Sach com-
duct was neither politic nor honourable, even if it were
lawful. Ho had resided in Van Diemen's Land himself,
and he never know an instance of a letter being
opened except upon information on oath. That had
been the practice since 1829. The Right Honour-
able Baronet the Member for Ripen (Sir James
Graham) might have pleaded as his excuse for open-
ing letters on one occasion at the Post-office,
that it was the general practice to open let-
ters here, a 3 to say it was the practice so to do in Van
Diemen's Land. He concluded by moving for an in-
quiry into the circumstances under which a letter ad•
dressed by Mr. W. S. O'Brien to a Member of the House,
complaining of his having been placed in solitary con-
finement by the present Lieutenant-Governor of Van
Diemen's Land, was intercepted and opened in that co-
lony by the local authorities.

Mr. DICKSON seconded the motion. HP pressed.
strongly for relaxation of the punishment inflicted upon
Mr. Smith O'Brien.

Upon the question being put,
Sir G. GREY said that he did not conceive that any
grounds had been laid for a Parliamentary inquiry in
this case. He could assure the Hon. Member that the
opening of the letter of Mr. S. O'Brien addressed to him
arose from no suspicion that he would countenance any-
thing improper, but it was the universal practice to
open all letters of convicts who had not tickets of loßve,
and who were in that class in which Mr. Smith O'Brien
of his own free choice had thought proper to remain.
Mr. Smith O'Brien and his associates had forfeited their
lives. By the mercy of the Crown their lives had been
spared, and, under the circumstances, indulgences were
granted to them which were not granted to others.
Tickets of leave were granted to three of them. Mr.
Smith O'Brien refused a ticket of leave, and it was
by his own act only he was now in that class whose
letters were opened; and, being in that class, he sought
special exemption from it. They might deplore that
one who had been a member of that House had placed
himself in the position that Mr. O'Brien was now re-
duced tc ; but then it was not beet:use he had hero a
rnea)ber of tha'. :hit be had a right to claim treat-
ment which would be different from that icflicted upon
him if he were a poor man, and had been convicted of
the same crime.—(llear.) Ile (Sir G. Grey) hoped he

had sufficiently explained the circumstances under which
these letters had been opened. He could assure the
Helve that they were opened without the slightest sus-
picion that anything improper had passed, and simply on
account of the position in which the convict was placed
by his own act, and which position naturally led to the
enforcement of certain regulations.
Mr. B. COCHRANE agreed with Sir G. Grey that
the law must be carried out, and that there was no rea-
son to show favour to one class of convicts in preference
to another. In his opinion the law should be executed
fairly and conscientiously, without regard to the posi-
tion in society which the person convicted of a crime
might fill.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY, in supporting the motion, ex-
pressed a hope that an opportunity would occur when
her Majesty's Government might feel themselves justi-
fied in extending the Royal clemency to Mr. O'Brien,
an act which, he could assure them, would be most
grateful t the people of Ireland.
Mr. FIUME was of opinion that Government had done
as much as, under the circumstances, could have been
expected from them. At the same time he thought that
letters aeldressed by convicts to Members of Parliament
should be allowed to pass unopened. _ .

The O'GORNIONMALION.—The proposal of the
Hon. Member for Youghal had originated in the eircum7

stance that the :teal of latter addressed to himself Lad
been violet by the governor. He (the O'Gorman Mahon)
did not believe that the governor would have ventured to
of en that letter if it had been addressed to the Lord
Cnencellor, the Speaker of the House of Commons, or
any one of the law dignitaries of the country, and he
could not see, therefore, why he should be allowed to
oven it when addressed to a private Member of Par-
liament. He protested against the doctrine laid
down by Mr. Cochrane, that there wes no distinc-
tion between the case of Mr. Smith O'Brien and that
of any other convict. Mr. O'Brien's case was not
analogous to that of other convicts. It was true
that he had been subjected to condemnation after cer-
tain formularies had been gone through; but he (the
O'Gorman Mahon) would candidly tell the House that,
having been present at the trial at Clonmel, and having
come from Franco to volunteer his evidence in favour of
his Hoe. Friend Mr. Smith O'Brien, he had watched
with attention the proceedings at the trial, and that if
the House would appoint a Committee, and he were ex-
amined before it, he would explain his reasons for the
declaration that he was by no means satisfied with the
course pursued et that trial, and the mode by which the
conviction of the Hon. Gentleman was obtained. It
was not his object, however, to rip that queeion up now;
he merely volunteered his evidence if tee House would
appoint a Committee. He maintained that Mr. O'Brien
was not in the same category an other convicts. True,
by the construction which was put upon the law he was
found guilty of treasen; but let the House mark what
species of treason. It was treason unattended by the
shedding of one single drop of blood. To be sure a
child or an old woman was shot by accident; but there was
no collision, and no destruction of property; and
it was a notorious feet that but for his friend
William Smith O'Brien blood would have been shed,
lives would have been lost, and propariy would have
been destroyed to an enormous amount. He having
then, at the risk of his own life, prevented the spoliation
of property and put a stop to the nefarious projects of
others also sought to hand themselves together, and
urged him on to deeds which his soul disdained, and he
himself having been the victim, would the lion. Member
again assert that there was no distinction to he drawn
between the man who hal thus acted, sacrificing him-
self that he might save others, and those comities who
had been thrust out from civiliz'd society as a curse, and
whose conduct justified the punishment they endured ?
—(Hear, hear,) It was with extreme gratitude that
he hed listened to• the observations which had dropped
from Sir G. Grey; and he trusted that when the
ap-
propriate time arrived the Government would have the
satisfaction of advising her Majesty to an act of mercy
which would ensure to her an addition—if addition were
possible—to the attachment which &ready existed in the
Irish bosom, and to Ministers themselves a participation
in the gratitude of the nation.
Mr. MONSELL said that, in all the communications
he had had with the Government and the secretary for
the Colonies upon this subject, he felt himself bound to
state that they had shown every disposition in their
power to meet the reasonable suggestions which he had
taken the liberty to offer them. At the same time he
must say that he was not so convinced that the colonial
authorities had dealt with Mr. O'Brien in the same
spirit.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
a letter which had been received by a gentleman in
Clare from a person in Van Diemen's Land, which was
dated November 26th, and which stated that Mr. O'Brien
had arrived in the colony about three weeks before; that
having refused to accept his ticket of leave, ho was
treated by the Government in every respect as one of
the worst convicts, except that he was not forced to
labour or wear.the convict's dress ; that he was not al-
lowed to have intercourse with any one, and that he was
restricted to the same food as the other convicts, and
prevented from purchasing anything whatever. He (Mr.
Monsell) admitted that there might have been changes
made since that period.—(Hear, Leer.) But if his Right
Hon. Friend would take care that Mr. O'Brien should
not be subjected to such restrictions, it would give great
satisfaction to him (Mr. Mennen) and the other friends
of Mr. O'Brien.

Sir L. O'I3RIEN said that, as some discredit had
been thrown upon the statement which he had made on
a former occasion in tlyit House, he begged to say that
what he then stated was perfectly the truth. Ills au-
thority was a letter which had ben addressed by his
brother to Mr. Butt, Queen's Counsel; and any Hon.
Gentleman who desired to read that letter was quite
welcome to do so. He asked no more than that his
brother should bo treated with consideration in ti-. 0 un-
fortunate position in whi h he wAi placed; to ask f n• his
release would, he knew, under the circumstancs, be un-
reasonable.—(Hear, hear))
Mr. HAWES could say, from his own knowledge of
what had taken place, that the Governor of Van
I)iemen's Land had been actuated only by one feeling,
and that was a sense of duty both to the Crown and to
the convicts.—(Hear, hear.) Since the letter which his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Mensal) referred to was written, there
had been certain modifications in the regulations affect-
ing Mr. Smith O'Brien. With regard to his being con-
fined alone, that was the act of Mr. O'Brien himself,
because unless he had been subjected to contaminating
associations, he natb:t necessarily be confined in some
place by himself. With regard to his dietary and place
of confinement, in some degree favour had been shown
to him which was not shown to other convicts, and to
that extent the Governor might be open even to some
censure.

After a few observations from Mr. Ewart, Mr. S.
Crawford, Colonel Duane, and Colonel Thompson,
The House divided, and there appeared—
For Mr. Anstey's motion ... ... 17
Against it
Majority swainst the motion ... —2B
SUPPLY.—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

The House having gone into Committee of Supply,
On the vote of 125,0001. for education in Great Britain
being proposed,
Mr. EWART rose and moved, " That a statement be
made on the part of the Government, on going into edu-
cation estimates (as is done on going int ) the estimates
for the army, navy, and ordnance), of the sums appro-
priated each year to the purposes of education; the at-
tribution of those sums; the relative increase of common
schools of all sorts receiving grants from Governm"nt;
the number and progress of schools of design; and of all
educational institutions (including public libraries, and
museums or galleries of art and science),• for which
money is voted by Parliament." With respect to the
schools of design, it was an error to make the central
school a place of instruction for pupils ; it should
only be for the training of teachers. The instruction
of females, too, was a matter that should be more at-
tended to. As to the general condition of all public
educational establishments, especially the Museum, in its
various departments, the National Gallery, and the
Museum of Practical Geology, the public ought to know
what was going on in them—what additions %ere made
in these branches, and all other matters pertaining to
their progress, and all those might be embodied in an
explanatory statement of the Minister every year to the
House.

Sir G. GREY admitted the importance of the subject,
but considered it would be extremely difficult for any
Minister to make such a general statement as the Hon.
Gentleman required, and which would be analogous to a
general statement on the estimates of the army, navy,
and ordnance by one Minister, instead of having each of
those separate departments treated by the three separate
Ministers to whose functions they belonged. With re-
spect to the vote before the House he was ready to give
any information that was required, all the details con-
nected with which would be found in the minutes of the
Committee of Council on Education which were as-
nually presented to the House, and which were in a very
readable form, and not of the formidable dimensions
of blue books generally. With respect to the
schools of design the subject fell rather within the
department of the President of the Board of Trade,
who would afferd all the requisite information on
the subject. With respect to the schools in connexion
with the Committee of Council, the various items of the
grants made from the Ist of January, 1848, to the 31st
of December, 1849, would be found given with detailed
accounts in the estimates, which were in tha hands of
Members. It would be there seen that 627 schools, Con-
taining no less than 97,307 pupils, had received grants,
and that the total sum awarded was 106,8031. The re-
sult had bean most satisfactory in enabling trustees to
build schools in proper places. The second item was
that of grants to the amount of 5,5441. for the fitting up
of 1,047 schools. The Right Hon. Baronet read some
other items from the estimates in the hands of Members,
and observed that a largo portion of the educational
grant made by Parliament had been applied to increas-
ing the standard of education in the schools.
Mr. HUME suggested that, as in France, a statement
of the progress of public education should appear in
the newspapers. He considered that more ought to be
done than had yet been effected for promoting national
education, the deficiency of which was plainly indicated
by the official reports on the subject. He sug-
gested that the national schools should bo furnished
%.ith maps, having statistics' statements attached to
them, of the British empire, like the snaps used in the
Prussian schools.
Mr. SLANEY concurred in thinking that it would
be satisfactory if there was an anneal statement laid
before Parliament of the condition send prospects of the
public educational establishments. The prop-ess of
education did not correspond with the wants of the
country, or with the increase of the population, espe-
cially amongst the humbler classes Ile thought that a
Bill should be introduced to enable parishes to assess
themselves for the purposes of education.
Mr. W. J. FOX inquired how it was that in the last
puhli,hecl criminal tables the usual statement of the
number of criminals who could read, write, were
educated, or otherwise, was omitted?

Sir G. GREY was not aware of the omission.. Ho
would inquire into the matter.

Mr. SPOONER complained of the heavy item tor
expense of management of the educational grant--
namely, 17,4501.
Sir G. GREY said that sum was not for expense of
mnagcr,nent—there were 16,0001. of it for salaries and
travelling expenses of the inspectors.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the vote of 125,0001. for the expenses of the Com-
mis9ioners of National Education in Ireland,
Mr. HUME wished to know what had been the suc-
cess of the model farms?

Sir W. SOMERVILLE was under the impression
that a report, conraining a very satisfactory statement
on the subject, bad already been made.
Mr. HENLEY asked how it was that the education
inspectors in Ireland received no more than 250/. each.
whilt so much more was paid to the English inspectors?

Sir G. GREY said their time was so much less occu-
pied than that of the Euglish inspectors.
Mr. HENLEY obeervcd that they were employed on
au average nine months in the year.
The vote was then agreed tc.
OA the vote of 14,7b51. for schools of design and pro-

Mr. EWART expressed a hope that the Government
would make some statement as to the increase which had
tak“n place in the amount of this vote.
Mr. LABOUCLIERE said it was true that the vote
was increased by nearly 5,0001. since last year. It was
caused in a very great degree by what was called the
outfit-fund, and there was scarcely any way in which the
Government could more effectually promote the object in
than by furnishing these schools with good models,
and the hest specimens of sculpture, which were supplied
at a small cost. Another object in view was to extend
to Ireland the benefit of these schools of design—(Hear,
hear)-1,5001. had been granted towards their establish-
ment in Dublin, Belfast, and Cork; and he was bound
to sav that the schools already established had been
g!ate-fully received by the inhabitants, who had come
forward to tv,sist the efforts of the Government. He bad
been in correspondence with Lord Clarendon, and had
every reason to believe that they would be as successful
there as in England. The corporation of Cork had sub-
ccribcd 200/. a year towards them.
Mr. HUME was fully sensible of the advantages
arising from these schools, but wished to know how it
was that Birmingham, which subscribed nothing, re-
ceived 6001. a year. Sheffield again received 600/. and
only subscribed 215/. It was not right either that
Nottingham should receive 450/., when it subscribed
only 2011.
LABOUCIIERE admitted the importance Of
making the grunts and subscriptions balance each other,
and this was kept in view by the Government as far as
circumstances would permit, though, in some instances,
it had been found expedient to depart from it. In Bir-
mingham he believed a liberal subscription had been en-
tered into, but the return had not been made in time,
and the same observation applied to Ireland, but they'
would appear next year.
Mr. lIEADLAM. complained of the injustice which
had been dune to Newcastle• upon-Tyne, the grant having
been discontinued in 1848.

Mr. HUME ivked if it was intended to continue to
receive ordinary pupils in the metropolitan schools.
which were originally supposed to be limited to the in•
struction of masters?

Mr. LABOUCHERE said it was certainly not in-
tended to make the metropolitan establishments strictlf
normal schools. London being a great manufacturing
place, it was important that students should have the
meens of obtaining instruction there.
Mr. HUME observed that in that case London ought
also to contribute.
The vote was then agreed to. ,
Oa the vote of 2,0061., for the salaries of certain.
professors in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge,
Mr. EWART urged on the Committee the impor-
tance of providing fur the establishment of a professor-
ship of history, in connexion with diplomacy, in our
Univeesities—a department common in all the Universi'
ties abroad. When the professorships of modern history
were established at Oxford and Cambridge, in the time
of Sir R. Walpole, it was with the view of connecting
with it the study of diplomacy. He did not propose,
that degrees should be taken in that department et
knowledge, but certificates of competency might be
granted. lie thought our young diplomatists should
undergo a regular examination, as it was the case norl
in many branches of the public service.
Mr. HUME also thought no attaches ought to be
emplo)ed without having passed a preliminary exam'
nation, and they ought also to possess a knowledge °J.
the language spoken in the country where they were
employed.
Mr. W. J. FOX thought that before being called on 10
spend the public money they ought to know whether
the lectures delivered by the professors in question wer°
to be for the benefit of the public, or were to be coil:
fined to the wealthiest class of the community, and
those who entertained an exclusive class of theologiePi
opinions.
Mr. C. LEWIS feared the Hon. Member for Duo'
fries, in referring to foreign Universities, had in his 05.6
the science of diplomatics taught in the German U 131;
versifies, which had nothing to do with the science e'
diplomacy, but related to diplomas or ancient deeds.
Mr. L WART begged to assure the Hon. Gentleman
that ho was perfectly aware of the distinction.
Mr. GLADSTONE reminded the Committee, that
although the public was good enough to pay 1,0001. to
each of the Universities, it imposed a very heavy 01%
upon the granting of degrees. Ile thought the tax
trowel), heavy and unjust, end unworthy a great nation'
He entertained a sanguine hope that the alterations re'
con tly made at Oxford would necessarily lead to a study
of these matters relating to diplomacy and the law'
nations in its most extended and important sense. 06
hoped also that the public libraries of these Universitie.
would be made more generally available to the student'.
and the public.
Wei
Mr. LENNARD said that at Cambridge there /1°„,
lectures upon the law of nations and modern history'
which were very numerously attended. Great facilitle
were also afforded in the library of that University, and ,
no difficulty was experienced in obtaining books at AN
time.
Mr. V. SMITH said, if the withdrawing of the dull
on degrees would meet the expenses of the professor:
ships, he thought it would be most desirable to get tIJI
of them, and effect thereby an arrangement that wotll,
,`:
be more satisfactory to all parties. Ho thought /1
highly objectionable that the votes for the different 1513 r
versifies and academies should be included in the esV
mates and discussed in that House every year.
Mr. EWART hoped that some arrangement would be
made by the Noble Lord at the head of the foreign de'
partment by which those agents who were in future to
represent that country abroad would not exhibit se
great an ignorance of the first principles of diplomacy
as had been too often witnessed.
Lord PALMERSTON said some such arrangement
had been for some time in comtemplation; and he hope"
to be able to have an examination instituted for those
receiving their first commission.
Mr. ANSTEY said in almost every foreign country
they had a department of public law, and he might ill'
stance particularly Russia, in which it was necessary t,°
obtain some proficiency before the lowest diplomat°
post would be conferred ou any candidate. All the
Governentrit officials were in that way conversant with
matters of which their diplomatic agents were pro'
foundly ignorant, thanks to the education the younger
so•.s of the aristocracy received at their Universities.
Mr. STANFORD defended the course of education
pursued at their Universities, and observed that it via;
only necessary to look for a moment at the long list °,
distinguished men, both at home and abroad, who bal.'
graduated at these Universities,, to prove that they p°e.
sessed attainments of the very highest description. Pe
complained also of the utter neglect of the Governeneati
in conferring appointments upon men who had passed
through their University career with the greatest honour*
contrasting it with the manner in which the Governments
abroad conferred their most important diplomatic or
pointments upon those who had distinguished themselvee
in the foreign Universities.
Mr. A. B. HOPE said that they had many distill:
guished Members in that House who had graduated 0'
these Universities. The Right Hon. Baronet the biere:
her for Tamworth—for whose recent calamity they sao;
all feel the deepest sorrow—was one of them.—(Hear.)
At the age of twenty-one he Was placed in a most pro'
minent and honourable position, because he was a double
class man at Oxford. He did not think it fair to charge
the Government with this neglect.
The vote was agreed to.
3,6671., to defray the expenses of the University of
London, was also agreed to.
7,480/. was also agreed to for the Scottish University'
Mr. EWART reminded the Committee of a petition
presented from the inhabitants of Aberdeen, complaining
of the college library being closed to them, although J,
was supported out ofthe Consolidated Fund. He hope'
that the Government would consider the propriety Off
affording the people free ingress to these regions 0f
knowledge.
Mr. HUME also urged upon the Government the ne".
cessity of making these libraries more applicable t°
public purposes.
Mr. DUNCAN having expressed himself to the same
effect,
Mr. F. MAULE said the attention of the Govern'
merit had been turned to this subject. The Committest°
however, should perceive that the Government had very
little control over these libraries. The library of B&W'
burgh was for students exclusively.
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were also agreed to:-
300/. towards defraying the expenses of the Boy
Hibernian Academy, and 6,500/. for the Royal Deb°
Society.
4,1001. for theological professors in Belfast as eor
pensation for professors of the Belfast Academical In'
stitution.

Mr. V. SMITH wished to ask why there was au if;
crease of 5001. in the former vote, and of 1,0001. in s°
present?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the extra 5001• to
the former vote was for building a hothouse apparattl;
In iespect to the Belfast Academical Institution, 06r
were retiring allowances granted to five professors '3O
,
the opening of the Queen's College o
, and gratuities !„
others. These items would not of course be repeatecil"
any future vote.
My. askei why the7,e five professors were DO
appointed to the new colleges?
Sir W. :,,OMERVILLE said all that could be
pointed had been appointed.
The vote was then egreed to. a-
-38,5691. for defraying the expenses of the new 01'.
ings at the British Museum.
Mr. WYLI) complained of the smallness of the libralt;
rood, and the want of accommodation for eithor
Atop
visitors or books. There were 40,000 volumes taldea
the library within the last year. Any person ftetiu"'til" 0
this plQee roust at 'once see the dillieult) of procuringo
book published two or three years age. There viiss
proper catalogue published. ia
The CHANCELLOR~ of the EXCHEQUER tic
that the usual time for giving the information 46-L.--

was when the Wght Hon. Gentleman (Sir B. Peel),
whose illness they all deplored, moved the tou!=d vote
for the British Museum. He coped that the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be present before the end of the ses-
sion to move the vote.—(How.)
Sir D. DUNDAS stated that arrangements were
making to give increased accommodation to the public,
At the same time, more accommodation was given in
the reading-room of the British Museum than in any
other public library abroad.
Sir R. INGLIS stated that there was accommodation
now for 250 readers.
Mr. HENLEY remarked that there ouTht to be double
accommodation in the British Museum library, as Lon-
don was so much larger than any oher metropolis.
811' H. VERNEY complained of the manner in which
ulc catalogue was being brought out at tho British Mu-
seum.

Alr. HUME said that the catalogue now making
Would not be finished before the year 1595.
Mr. P. MAULS considered that there was no mzn
to whom the public) was more indebted than t) Al.
llizzi.

Sir H. INGLIS praised Mr. Penizzi for bringing out
a catalogue on the best plan.
Sir D. DUNDAS said, that no man in England could
do the duties of his (Alia better than Mr. Panizzi. He
admitted it to be a very convenient thin to have a
finding catalogue—(llear, heir)—yet if they wished to
a catalogue for all time, it would not be unreason-
able Wit took up to the year 1895 before it was com-
pleted.
Sir H. VERNEY wished to elicit the opinion of the
rions,, as to the value of having a finding catalogue.
Let them, he said, have such a catalogue, at all evews,
and have it in as short a time as possible.
/Ir. }MART wishe.l that the reading room of theßritiih Museum shoell be opened in the evening.
WYLD complaicel that they could not get a
wook published within the last two years. There were
40,000 volumes in the library which were not catalogue3.
Five clerks could catalogue 70 000 volumes in a year.
Sir D. DUNDAS said that fire was so fearful an ex-
periment in a place where there was such property, that
4 was not one that could be undertaken without serious
Consideration. At the same time it was under consi-
deration.
Mr. EIVART said it was his intention to move for a
returrs of applications for admission to the reading room
which were refuted. There wa'S a system of exclusion
of which he complained.
Mr. STANFORD complained of the restrictions ex-
isting upon the admission of persons to the lihrary of
the Museum. He himself had once applied as a Master
of Arts of Cambridge University and a member of
Lincon's Inn for a ticket of airnission, and in reply was
refused the ticket, but referred to a list of persons with
which he was furnished. This was one instance, and
doubtless there were hundreds of other similar ones.
Unless the reading room were too small to contain the
applicants, such restrictions were impolitic, and un-
worthy the liberal character of the institution.—(Hear.)
vo the vote was agreed to, as were also the following
:
3,0501. for the expense of procuring antiquities for
the Museum; 1,500/. for the National Gallery; 19,0001• for the expense of the Geological Survey of Great
Britain and Ireland; 996/, for expenses of magnetic
observations at Toronto, ewe of Good Hope, and Van
Dieman's Land.
On the Edinburgh, vote of 10,0001. for galleries of art in
_ Mr. BRIGHT objected to a vote of the public money
for Edinburgh, which was not granted to other towns,
such as Leeds, Birmingham, or Manchester.
Mr. B. OSBORNE moved as an amendment that the
Vote bo negatived.
VThe CfIANCEBLOR f the EXCHEQUER defended
ie vote on the ground that there was
an obvious dis-
tinction to be observed between the three capital cities of
oho
empire—.viz,, London, Dublin, and Edinburgh—and
thatand the vote should be granted.
After some discussion, the vote was postponed.
bli "to, 4,0491., charges and expenses of civil esta.
‘-;
r.,4 motets in Bermuda, was agreed to.
doh (31"oni SIBTHORP protested against the declare-
s..lls a his Right Hon. Friend that he could not tell
would go on with the Committee of Supply.
Th° CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
isi°blo W°Lord had already stated that on Thursday next he
,I'.l_d state the course of business.
The Rouse then resumed,
i;f3:ntei.r.einen Manufactures (Ireland) Bill went through

"eTHE EXHIBITION OF 18M.
Colonel SIBTHoIT gave notice of his intention to
the fur a Select Committee to inquire into the plans for
i, to e aroriated to the exhibiion in I,!,Pie Park also thatpp n
o further steps be taken tby the
sc§lntnissioners until the report of the Select Committee
Is laid on the table.
The House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS. July 1.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
TIIE PARKS.
Lord BROUGHAII asked if there was any objection
to ley before the House the plans for the alteration of
the Green-park and of Hyde-park. He also complained
of the removal of nine elms from Hyde-park. His
Noble Friend who had been recently at the head of that
of Virgil
department would have said with himself, in the words
, " Fortunatus et ille Deos qui novit agrestes,"
but it would appear that his successor adopted a different
re4ding, and said—
" Fortunatus et ilk Dcos qui movit agrestes."
y
woorae of these elms had been rianted for more than 200
ears.
which
- , 11e had a motion on the tubject for to-morrow,
, ne would postpone until Thursday, on the under-
TheabaVing that nothing should be done in the meantime.
a Atarciii,_of
LS LA. NSDO W N E was understood to
to the to 1 the production of the papers, but not to assent
Lordl;ll°sition for postponement. _ .
for to-morrow.IlGILUI would then let his motion stand

Lord 13RA ee,. PETITIONS.
favour ,-, aeLIO
Of the
NT presented several petitions in
The Duke of of county courts.
Lavel'n f like of RICHMOND presented several petitions
le of c
gi en the clause in the Factory Bill, of which he
sholltdv notice, and if that clause were not carried he
it be read the ruction for the third reading, move that
read a third time thet day six months.
The ist PRIVILEGES OF PEERS.
Lord ontn DUKE then presented a petition from
Henniker, an Irish Peer. who had been appointed
§uffto serve the office of nigh Sheriff of the county of
elk, which he considered ' a breach of the privi-
lege of the Peeraee and praying for the interference of
their Lordships. a '
8_ Tbe marq„iis
of
LA.NSDOWNE said the selection of
Wheritfa was made made not by the Privy Council, but
eehe judges of the land, who alone could decide what
or was not the law, and on them rested the resoon-
sibility of the selection. There had been several in-
St:tnees iti which Irish Peers had serval the office of
8 I:iffr in Engl4ll counties.
of nori„d„nROUGIIAAI thought that this was a matter
1102'ge, and that, therefore, the House, and the
Ti? a', 'le, could deal with it.
e Larl of WICKLOW said that no Irish Peer had
ever been called o t s and iu his own countr there was no nrenasnonnt wall heer should not be so calley, d Ton if he could be called upyon so to act in this country.
tie considered it was contrary to the Act of Union to
call upon an Irish Peer so to act.
.Lord (.1 % As
Peers
-1-"iPBELL said that to all privileges of f
Irish Peers were strictly entitled, but, not to privileges of Parliament, and th exemion from serving the offi •
iv?
sheriff' was not a privilegeof the Peerage, but a pr 1-
kge of parliament, and therefore an Irish Peer, not a
kerb
er
b of Parliament, was not exemp'.
I,After a few words from Lord MoNTF•AGLE and the
"Jake of RICEMOND, the petition was ordered to bo laid
on the table.
POLICE IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
COURT OF SESSION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
Their Lordships then resumed.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL,
The
B Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the order of
above
the day
ill.
for the House going into Committe on the
1 Their Lordships accordingly went into Committee,
the Earl of SIiAPTEBRUILY in the chair.
Lord STANLEY called their Lordships' attention to
the 14th line oe the first clause. The effect of the pro-
vision therein contained would bo to disfranchise the
class of voters who held lands on leases of twenty years
of the value of 101, above all the charges upon them.
Although he was not disposed to press
his suggestion to
a division, he would. recorn_neend the omission of the
" in virtue of any qua-
words, in th clause in question. ,
lification not®requiring occupatton."
the suggested
The Earl of CARLISLE
the
posed
amendment. The principle of
aelaentl Bill was, that
sole test of his qualification
the voter's claims to the franchise should not depend
upon himself, but that the
should be the rating alone.---(11
which Earl
ear.)
Grey, the
After a short discussion, in .
_
Earl of Glengall, Lord Redesdalo, and other Noble
Lords took part, the proposition, not having been pressed,
Was understood to have dropped.
The Earl ST. GERMANS then came forv%'i!rdtoemaouvsee
given notice, in I
the amendment, of which he had for
I, page 2, line 5, to substitute the word." twelve"
in Ireland
the word " eight." The county franchise
.
depended entirely on the value of the house. The value t
of the lands was not at all taken in connexion with i .
lie contended, therefore,
dwell-
if by adopting his amendment
!hey gave a stimulus to landlords to improve the
~
me.
'llg3 of their tenantry, that a very material social
nt, and physical advantage would be conferred on the
f—lantrY. He contended also, from referring to the
beate census, that the effect of his proposition would not
to narrow the constituency of Ireland. He could not,
he confessed, vote in favour of the proposition of hi Noble Friend
near him (the Earl of Desert) because
that point had already been amply discussed and decided
in the House of Commons. It was desirable that the
franchise in Ireland should no longer depend on the con-
t h flittinga
t the tight of voting might be ascertained by the
a.Ficuut to which a party was rated to a certein time.
Ile conclutbd had give by ialoving the amendment of which he
n notice.
Zw_Tho Marquis of L &NSDOWNE said he thought it
utiusa duty with respect to the other House of Parlia-
that ii aid the great mass of information conveyed to
which it had on the present subject, and the deliberations.
repented h." given the question in all its bearings—he
Loithh• e felt it to be his duty to offer the Bill to their
when hle:' " it
ci
giyin,
veard Ids
at present stood. lie acknowledged,
Noble Friend's arguments in favour
an em'''t• ne"lll'agement to the erection of more solid
and enable builditio'i f r ti • autry of Ireland,
Was led a„ t r - 0 the peas Presentstion Y a first by the spaciousness of his re-
it wolo be s• OR farther consideration they had found
' lnc On
to cluait that as a test, as the

effect of it in Ireland would be to exclude a most re-
speetable class of voters. To separate the value of the
house from the value of the land would he to ietre-
duce a rule which he did not think it would be
advisable to adopt. I-To did not cerry his objection
so far as to tay, if the Noble Earl should induce their
Lordships to adept the amendment, that the 81. house
qualification might not be added to the 12/. occupancy.
The ot.jeet which they ought to have in view should be
a real, effectual representation of opinion in Ireland. If
they did not make up their minds to go to that extent
they had better not proceed with the Bill at all. Nay,
be believed it would be better in such a case to get rid of
representation altogether. An ineffectual representa-
tion—one that did not represent opinion, was, in most
respects, more mischievous than no representation.
Universal suffrage he was far from approving, because
it represented every delusion, every feeling, every plo-
sion, and was not a real representation of the mind, but
of something that was not the mind of the electors. Bad
as he believed despotism, with its no representation, to
be, there was something worse, and that was a nominal
instead of a real representation. All recent experience
had, he thought, shown the folly of a representation that
was nothing but nominal. H•e wished to see the fran-
chise extended in Ireland to the great body of the com-
munity, and not confined to any body of gentlemen, or
any particular class of electors. Ile trusted, therefore,
if their Lordships in any way altered the Bill, that they
would not alter it to that extent which would deprive
the people of Ireland of a full and fair represonative
system. Ho was inclined to think the proposed amend-
ment went toe far, and should like to see the measure
returned to the Commons in a shape in which they ceui.d
entertain it.

Afzer a fow words from the Earl of WICKLOW, who
suggeste(l to the Noble Lord to postpone his amend-
ment till the bringing up of the report, so as the discus-
sion on the other amendment might uow be taken,
Load 410 N FEAGLE approved of no 81. horse quali-
fication. He had had some experience of elections in
Ireland, and thought that a 121. qualification would bo
bettor than one of Si. He hoped that they would fix
that amount of qmilifi:iation which they thought right and
proper in itself, without any reference to coming to other
tern:; with the House of Commons on the subject.
The Delto of LEINSTER was understood to say that
he c,iti:d_not support the amendment for a 151. qualifies-
tio 1.

• The Earl ST. GERMANS said he was quite willing
to postpone his turpudaumt.
Lord STANLEY said that the Noble Lord on the
cross benches bad alluded to the present mode of rating
under the poor-law valuation. From all the informa-
tion he had obtained on that point he b4ieve I that that
valuation was extremely different in different counties,
and though well adapted for the levying of a poundage
rate, was quite unsuited for being made the basis of the
franchise. Though not prepa-ed with any amendment
he should like to hear the Noble Marquis state whether
any measure was contemplated for the purpose of
having a proper valuation.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM said it might be true that
there was a difference in the mode of valuation in dif
ferent coantius, or even between some unions in the
same county in Ireland, but in England the same diffi-
culty existed.
Lord STANLEY said that in England the rent, and
not the was take.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM admitted that, but reminded
the Noble Lord that rents varied in different towns,
and that a 101. house in one town was occupied by a
very different sort of parson from the tenant of a 101.
house in another town.
The Earl of CARLISLE said, though he admitted
they he 4 not a perfect basis for the franchise, yet thy
had to choose between the present measure and the ano-
malous and disgraceful state of things that at present
existed. The t,retnent valuation of Air. Griffith was
now being carried on. In a year or two it would be in
force in six of the largest counties in Ireland, and would
!erne as the basis of the poor-law valuation, as well as of
the franchise. In every other county the grand jury
might apply to the Lord-Lieutenant to have the valua-
tion extended to them. Looking at the trickery, frauds,
perjuries, and conflicting decisions of the prsent sys-
tem, he thought it would be wiser to effect an immediate
cure of that vicious system than to delay the remedy
until they got a complete and satisfactory basis on which
to rest the franchise. _ _

LordMONTELN.6LE thought if they cpuld not at
present get a pprfeet system of valuation, they ought to
adopt some cheeks by which frauds would be prevented.
After a few words from the Earl of WICKLOW and the
M2rquis of LANSDOWNE, the amendment was understood
to be svithdravvn.

Lord DES ART said he had assented to the second
reading cf the Bill with considerable hesitation, bee ause
ho was afraid that it would be impossible at a subsequent
stage to introduce any amendments which should ob •
viate the dangers and difficulties which must necesserily
result from its adoption. His objection to the Bill re-
mained unchanged, particularly upon the amount fixed
upon for the qualification; and he asked their Lordships
to consider whether it was not expedient t) adopt a
larger sum than that fixed upon by the other House.
The sum which he intended to propose was 151.; and if
any lower amount should be determined upon, he should
feel it his duty to give the further stages of the Bill
every opposirien in his power. The Bill would give a
great preponderance to town over country
voters. Belicrieg that a 151. rating would
be far more likely to express the real
opinion of the country than a rating of 81, he ventured
to propose the amendment to the consideration of their
Lordships. The Govern feat were running a great risk
in trying this new experiment in Ireland. In a country
cf all others the most liable to agitation they wore
fixing a proportion far beyond the franchise granted to
other parts of the kingdom, and that without any rea
son whatever. He thought the lowest sure that could
be fixed upon for the franchise, consiitent with safety,
was 15/., and it was not without considerable hesitation
that he had made up his mind to propose so small a sum,
but on that he and the friends with whom lie acted
would ake their stand, and be asked their Lordships not
to talc() this gigantic stride towards universal suffrage,
from which it would be impossible to recede—(Haar)
—whereas if the 15/. franchise did not operate bene-
ficially it might easily be extended.—(Bear.) He con-
sidered the present measure altogether uncalled for, not
one single petition having been presented to their Lord-
ships on the subject.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of ORMONDE was understood to ex-
press himself in favour of a 12/. franchise, which would
increase the number of voters very considerably.
The Bishop of DOWN did not consider the apprehen-
sions ante rtained by many persons with respect to the
Si. franchise well founded, and had obtained such returns
as would enable him to give his conscientious vote in
favour of the measure. An 8/. suffrage would not give
anything like the universal suffrage apprehended by
some Noble Lords. In five electoral divisions, he found
the number of persons rated 52,000, and of that number
only 17,400 would be enfranchised by the 81. clause.
That was only one-third of the whole number. Now
was it to be supposed that the 34,000 who would remain
unenfranchised were incapable of being entrusted with
it?—((gear, hear, from the Opposition benches.) Surely
their Lordships did not intend to say that out of 52,000
ratepayers, 34,000 were incapable of exercising the
elective franchise.— (Renewed cheering.) Now, with
regard to the respectability of the parties, hetiell in his
hand a letter written by a most respectable and intelli-
gent agent, who stated that he had looked over the
rating between 81. and 91., end, as far as he knew,
almost all the parties were tenants cf head landlords,
each holding from 10 to 20 acres of land. He believed
that there would not be one solitary instance of a cottier
tenant becoming enfranchised under the Bill. In the
county of Down, the persons rated at Si. were intelligent
and respYetsble persons. (Laught ,r.) Much anxiety
prevailed in Ireland on this subject, and he was con-
vinced that an increase of the 81. franchise would destroy
the value of the measure.—(hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY admitted that it was right that Ire-
land should be placed on full equality with England with
regard to the franchise; but when the Right Rev. Pro-
late advocated so small an amount, he must know little
or nothing of the English system. In England it was
requisite that every person having a lease should have,
over and above all rents and charges, an acted profit of
at least 20/. for a lease in perpetuity, and a profit of 50/.
with regard to a lease fur 20 years. With regard to
those persons who held as tenants at will, or occupied
from vear t ) year, it was requisite that their possession
should net be of value to be rated at 8/., but of value to
be raid at 50/. He did not contend that in Ireland the
amount of value should be the same as in England, but
that it ought to be such as to insure intelligence, respec-
tebility, and independence in the voter.—(Hear.) The
Right Rev. Prelate had not given mimes; nor had he
mentioned the unions of which he spoke. Highly as he
(Lord Stanley) respected the moral character of the
people of the north of Ireland, he was inclined to doubt
the assertion that every person rated at 8/. per annum
was of that entire respectability insisted upon by the
Right Rev. Prelate.

The Bishop of DOWN named the unions, which
we understood to be five in number, and which we un-
derstood were Newtownards, Belfast, Coleraine, and two
others in the eounties of Down and Antrim.
Lord STANLEY resumed—The first thing that
struck him was in reference to the Right Rev. Prelate's
calculations.
It appeared to him, either that the value-
ttiheenireanudstwheasve been one exceedingly defective, or that
suPP thlef
eh;Ty; were toed that
a bad quality. For when their Lord-
at Plowc:tioedtathat the great majority of those rated
and notoriouslypiersons were ratei on a less scale than in
afteen or twenty acres of land, they must
other parts
did not accurately fair'
reland, or that the valuation was ,grossly
and, therefore, that the valuation
ought to exereiseYeer:Present the number of persons who
them right of voting. The Right Rev.
would only have for these five Prelate had told
adopted this valuation they
tee unions a constituency of
of late had asked the House
17,000. The Right Rev.
tw:ll4.e. whole number of
if they believed that out
ihirds wero unfit to
ratepayers in those unions
(Lord Stanley)
exercise the franchise? In re
ffrraenchl so
asserted that `he believed tvroPtrhde
were utterly unfit to exercise th:f that class
thar, is, to exer+e it independently from
the control of th!..ir landlords, or apart from the i‘'fl
of il;itainr.4.—(Elear, hear.) ll° believed this sn„re°
Taking the porin-
g prson3 in Ireland who occupied ten acriF.s At a';arellttY
rent were not persons 0u.,, of which they could form en
liantdiCirr:.‘anndd:3ltlhl ecr)sntatroll'cun3t3o'.i7t(hiel.el'9;l::?ile Lord, if you had a
qual;l,-A:lon of 15!. it would give a constituency of
ISO,OOO, which divi,lecl among 32 c;;untitis of Ireland, the
aveliet-0 would b' 5,600 for each county. This average
for Ireland would be higher than the averatg° for &g-
-land aril Scotland; and thercfne it could hardly be sad,
if the 151. franchise were adopted, that the franchise
would be narrowed too much. If they went lower lie
would ask them to see the effect it would have on tbe
elections. L they adopted the lower qualification it
would afford a constituency cf 335,000, which would give
an average of between 10,000 and 11,000 voters for each
county. Out of the whole number, nearly two-thirds of
• the whole constituency would be rated below 204 In