The Sun.
London, England, 1868-03-17 00:00:00

PRIVSTE BUSINESS.

f-tardiner's Patent fill was read a third time and passed
---------

RAILWAY EXTENSION OF TIME BILL.

The Duke of RICLAIOND moved the second reading
of this bill, which with for the purpose of giving extension
of time in the construction of railways. It would enable
the Board of Trade to extend the time of making a railway
for two years, and Is (the noble duke) believed chat it
would be found to act beneficially not only to the railways
but to the public and the owners of laud.
The Duke of OLE-MIND said that, supposing that
the company thought fit to abandon the line, what
would be the course punned.
The Duke of RICIIXOND 'remarked that the bill was
not for an abandonment, but for an extension of time if it
was passed..
It was then read a second thus.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION (ORDERS IN
COUNCIL) BILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the third reading of
this bill, and said that the Judicial Committee had thought
that it was their duty to inform hor Majesty that the two
orders in council did not meet the exigencies of the changes
which occurred from time to time in ecclesiastical pro-
perty,- therefore this bill was. introduced.
The bill was thon read a third time and passed.
The hcuse then adjourned.

....swab •,•••

HOUSE OF COMMONS'LAST EVENING,
The SPEAKER took the chair at four o'clock.
COVENTRY ELECTION PETITION.

The Commission appointed to try the merits of the
petition against the last return for Coventry reported that
they were of opinion that Mr. JaCilßoll was unduly elected,
on the ground that bribery had been committed by his

agents.
THE SPEECHES OF THE DEVS. MR. FERRARS
AND MR. LAVELLE.

In reply to Mr. COGAN and Mr. CAVENDISH BENTINCR,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL for IRELAND said his
attention had been called to the speeches of the two rev.
gentlemen mentioned. The speech of Mr. Ferrara was
delivered at a Protestant Defence Association meeting,
and although he was of opinion that the speech in ques-
tion, was of a very violent character, it was in fact no
violation of the law, and therefore no prosecution was in-
tended to be taken. The other speech was delivered by
tho Rev. Mr. Lavelle at a !Hauer given to that
gentleman in Dublin, on which occasion the room
was decorated with the names of WManus, Meagher,
Fitzgerald, and
Wolf Tone, Fitz.-o O'Brien, persons convicted of
treason. lie felt that the speech was a most mischievous
one, yet it was not prudent to inst tute criminal proceed-
ings against the rev, gentleman at the present moment.
THE ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION.

-------
Captain VIVIAN asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer
whether the estimate of the probable expenditure on ac-
count of the Abyssiniattexpedition, whieh was presented
to the house in November last, wag likely t 3 be exceeded ;
and if so, whether he was prepared to say to what extent,
and what were the circumstances Which account for the
same ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXOREQUER said it was
usual for hon. members to wait until the financial state-
ment or budget was brought before the house to
ascertain the result of certaia estimates, because
it was highly inconvenient .for the public service
to have the information got by piecemeal from the Go-
vernment by means of questions put across the table.
However, he would answer the question on the
present occasion, because the public mind had
been made uneasy by
the publication of certain
statements in the newspapers with respect to the great
expenditure the country would be called upon to make on
account of the expedition in Abyssinia. His noble friend
in November last stated that, in the event of
the expedition lasting until the end of April,
the amount required from the Consolidated Fund
would be three and a half millions or four millions
of money. From the best information he could obtain
upon the subject he felt he was quite correct iu saying
that down to the present time the expenses would be
covered by the lowest of those two amounts. (Hear,
hear.)

THE STATE OP IRELAND-THE ADJOURNED
DEBATE.

The adjourned debate on the state of Ireland was re-
sumed this evening by

Mr. MONSELL, who commenced by congratulating the
hon. member for Cork upon the ability with which he
had brought the motion forward, and the interest it had
occasioned not only in that house but throughout the coun-
try. He then went on to refer to the state and condition of
the people of Ireland, and said there could be no question that
they had improved in education, and the result of that
was, that as a people they had become more sensitive and
more difficult to govern except upon the principle of
justice. (Hear, hear.) They might make all the efforts
they could to further improve education in Ire-
land, but until they made the University of Dublin a
national institution they would fail. (Hear, hear.) Having
touched upon the land question, he commented upon that
part of the question which it had" been decided not
to interfere with by legislation, and in the course of his
remarks the hon. gentleman said it would be impossible for
any Government to improve the condition of Irelaad until
the house had decided the great question which so affected
the well being and tranquillity of that country—namely, the
question of the maintenance of the Established Church in
Ireland. The great disturbing element in Ireland was the
want of religions equality, and when that NM brought
about in that country, the Irish people wouldsupport the national institutions quite as loyally and ener-
getically as either the English or the Scotch. (Hear.) He
put it to the house whether it was wise at this particular
period to carry on a religious warfare. Let them fully
consider the question of the Established Church
in Ireland, and to obtain tranquillity let them
at once place it on a footing of equality. It
was the last link of the chain of conquest they were
called upon to break, and as the last portion of an ascent
was always the most difficult, so he urged the Govern-
ment to go onward—they would bo sustained by the
strong arm of justice, and the great reward for all exertion
—a reward which a statesman would most truly value—
would be the stability of peace in Ireland. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BUTLER JOHNSTONE next addressed the
house. He condemned the policy of the Government to-
wards Ireland. He denied it was what the First Lord
ok the Treasury had stand it to be, viz., a truly liberal

policy. (Hear, hear.) It might, however, suit some
to call it policy ; but it was not, and could not be called
statesmanship—it was the -rule of thumb. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.)
Mr. GREGORY, admitting the general accuracy of
Lord Mayo's picture of the progressive condition of Ire-
land, and allowing that Fenianism was confined to one
part of the country, and was utterly impracticable in its
aims, maintained that there was much discontent afloat
which ought to be dealt with immediately; and it ought
to be dealt with as nearly as possible :n the same spirit as
an Irish. Parliament would handle it in. On the land
question, stability of tenure was the first thing to be ob-
tained, and if Mr. Bright's plan could be accompanied by
some provision against subdivision it might confer great
benefits on Ireland. On the question of education, reply-
ing to Mr. Horsman's remarks, he denied that the Roman
Catholic laity required protection against their hierarchy,
and showed that in asking for denominational edu-
cation, primary and university, they required no
more than was claimed by Protestants. The first
objections to the mixed system of education
came from the Protestant clergy, and though the
Roman Catholic bishops had condemned the principle on
which the Queen's Colleges were based, they had not car-
ried their opposition to greater length. But at the bottom
of all Irish difficulties lay the State Church, and, speaking
as a Protestant, he recommended Mr. Bright's scheme to
the consideration of Protestants. Personally he was in
favour of the endowment of the three denominations in
Ireland ; but he acknowledged that public opinion was
against endowments. Simply to sweep away the Church
would be an unstatesmanlike solution, and must leave
much bitterness and animosity behind. Looking to the
great difficulties which beset the question, its settlement
must be attained by a compromise, and ono item of that
compromise ought to be the conveyance to each denomina-
tion of a lump sum, with a condition in the case of Roman
Catholics that a part of it should 'be applied to
the purchase of glebe lands and m-inses. He ex-
horted the enemies of the Church to be content
with dis-establishment, and avowed his wish that
the
t dh epl
largeronme wa t
cPa
sraiers
Amo
for improvements, and an improved administration of rail-
r
ways.
innsigitlewoswit;hhoeni thrhesehmwo:Puduloidl epdse ,bhdemee asuggested
iot untildirectanosn of public money
a

Mr. CONOLLY augured:much good from the practical
turn of the debate, and while maintaining that Irish Pro-
testants were not indisposed to a calm and just settle-
ment of the Church question, intimated that he should
oppose Lord Mayo's Land Bill if it was like that of last
year.

As Mr. Conolly sat down more than a score members
sprang up to continue the debate in all parts of the house,
but chiefly on the Liberal benches, and the Speaker called
on

Mr. W. H. GLA.DSTONE, who, in a very successful
maiden speech, argued that the circumstances of Ireland
required a bolder treatment than the Ministerial pro-
gramme. Fenianism, he held, was not so dangerous as
the subdued and smothered feelings of discontent, which
prevailed extensively, and on which it fed. The cause of
this discontent he defined to be the illiberal policy we bad
pursued towards the Irish paople, both as cultivators of
the soil and as Roman Catholics. He advocated a system
of certain and liberal compensation for improvements,
and this he would substitute for the tenant-right custom
which we did not altogether approve. Deeply regretting
that the Government had no policy in regard to the
Church, he insisted that no time should be lost by Parlia-
ment in pronouncing for the priuciple of religious equality,
and he combatted the plea that to disestablish the Irish
Church would strike a blow at the English Church, shelv-
ing in how many circumstances the two differed. The
one was an insult to the vast majority of "the population,
while the other was in entire accordance with the feelings
of the people among whom it was established. On the
question of education, though he should have preferred a
fusing of all educational establishments into one Uni-
versity, he did not disapprove the plan of the Government
to charter a Catholic University.
Lord CASTLEROSSE complained of the timidity of
the Government in not dealing with the Church. He ex-
pressed a strong opinion in favour of a measure for com-
pensation to tenants, and predicted that Parliament would
not consent to the plan of a Catholic University.
The discussion was continued on the same side by Mr.
Do la Poer and Mr. Synan ; by Colonel Bruen, who
argued against the establishment of fixity of.tenure by
law, and approved the endowment of a Catholic Uni-
versity ; and by Mr. Kendall, who justified the course of
the Government on the three points—Land, Church, and
Education.

Mr. GLADSTONE, who rose just before ten o'clock,
and was loudly cheered by the Opposition, pointed out
that, numerous as had been the blots hit in the Ministe-
rial programme, their greatest error of all was that they
had failed to realise the grave fact that we had reached a
crisis in the Irish question. Ireland had an account with
this country which had endured for centuries, and in the
opinion of every enlightened nation in the world, much as
we had done, we had not done enough to place ourselves
in the right. The most recent proof of this failure of the
Government to grasp the gravity of the occasion was Sir
Stafford Northcote's speech, for the impartiality of the
Executive Government, to which he trusted, was not suf-
ficient to to counterbalance the injurious effect of unjust
laws. Time, his second palliative, had been tried some
centuries, and of the third palliative—justice—he remarked
that Sir Stafford's idea of it included the maintenance of
the Irish Church. Admitting that Lord Mayo's account
of the state of Ireland was, on the whole accurate, be
argued that the co-existence of material progress with
widespread discontent was a proof that some unsatisfied
necessity still existed, and in enforcing the gravity of the
political crisis he pointed to the depletion of Ireland by
emigration, the repeated suspension of the Habeas
Corpus, and the invasion of England by Fenianism. Mr.
Gladstone next discussed at length the adequacy of
the Government policy to the exigencies of the case
under six heads, viz.:—Parliamentary Reform, the Re-
peal of the Ecclesiastical Titles Act, Railways, Education,
Land, and the Church. The first three he dismissed very
briefly, and on the question of University education he
remarked that the Roman Catholics had a real grievance.
He defended the action of Lord Russell's Government in
1866 on this subject,
and in discussing. Lord Mayo's sug-
gestion he insisted, with much emphasis, that Parliament
had never voluntarily undertaken the support of denomi-
national Universities and schools; but, on the contrary, of
late years it had been sedulously endeavouring to get rid
of all votes of a purely denominational character. Mr.
Disraeli must know as well as any one that such a scheme
as this could not be carried into effect ; it was a mere idea
in fact, which in reality was (lead before it had lived ; and
in the absence of any information as to the views of the
Roman Catholic bishops it might be described as another
" leap in the dark." But it was impossible to give a final
opinion on the University question until the view of Par-
liament on the Irish Church was ascertained, for if a
sweeping 'policy were adopted it would be necessary to
consider how far Trinity College could be made :avail-
able. On the land question Mr. Gladstone asserted
that the real grievance of the Irish people had
been acknowledged by the; Devon Commission, which
had recommended a measure of compensation for im-
provements. A just land law he had laid down to be one
under which, in the absence of any contract between land-
lord and tenant, the improvements effected by the tenant
should be his property, and he preferred to trust rather to
to the operation of such a security than to any measure
for fixity of tenure. Commenting on Mr. Bright's plan, he
pointed out some difficulties to it ; he suggested that if the
Government took possession of the Irish Church property,
the experiment could be tried there. Passing to the Church
question, Mr. Gladstone congratulated the House on the
rapid advance of public opinion, as shown, perhaps, more
forcibly in the defence of the Church than in the attack.
After condemning strenuously Lord Mayo's hint at an in-
crease in the Regium Donum and a subsidy to the Roman
Catholics from the Consolidated Fund, and ridiculing the
Government pleas for delay, he announced, amid loud
cheers from the Opposition, his opinion that the Church, as
a State Church, must cease to exist. Religious equality
must be established, difficult though the operation might
be; but he decidedly condemned the principle of bringing
nded
furpomoththere dcmo
indeattieodn st o
Fundth,e euvde 1
tohfet hpel
aCeh
forur hr
redividing
vgirdafnetgs
her revenues among the clergy of different denominations.
eonn°s
Those plans had long passed the point of practical possi-
bility. On the whole, he agreed very much with Mr. Bright, s
mode of effecting this great operation. He recommended
Mr. Maguire to withdraw his motion, but he
inti-
mated that unless Mr. Disraeli's speech differed altogether
from the speeches of his colleagues, it would be the duty
of the Opposition to ask a decided opinion from the house
pr step
on this question ; and it must not be a mere empty decla-
ration, but it must be attended by some practical
which would show the Irish people that Parliament was
now in earnest.

Mr. DISRAELI, who was loudly cheered, commenced
by ironically bewailing the unhappy fate which made the
commencement of his Ministerial career coincident with
the imperious necessity of immediately settling an account
seven centuries old. Examining the elements of the Irish
crisis, as stated by Mr. Gladstone, he showed that all of
them had existed while he was in office, and that no at-
tempt had been made to deal with them. Commencing
with the University project, he defended the Ministerial
programme in detaiL The object of the proposed charter
was to extend to the Irish Roman Catholics the opportu-
nity they had long desired of giving their children the
benefits of a higher education under the influence of their
own prieethood, and the eat-owns of Mr. Lioremau that it

was meant to conciliate Ultramontanism was absurd, as ho
showed by a recapitulation of the facts relating to the Queen's
College, which Mr. Horsman, he said, had tetally misrepre-
sented. He vindicated next the land policy of the Govern-
ment, premising that in this and all otherpoints the Govern-
ment had proposed, not that which was theoretically per-
fect, but which was practical and practicable. They had
picked out all those points on which there was a genera
agreement that legislation was possible, while they had
referred to a Commission those points only which were
not ripe for decision, and ho characterised the assertion
that the object of the Commission was delay as "the lees
and refuse of factious insinuation." Passing to the Church
question, and admitting that the Irish Church was not in
the position he should wish to see her, having in her com-
munion the majority of the people, Mr. Disraeli discussed
and defended the principle of ecclesiastical endowments.
He denied that the spirit of the age was opposed to en-
dowments, as had been laid down by Mr. Bright, who,
with the aid of the philosophers, had apparently converted
Mr. Gladstone to the same opinion. He warned the house
that it was not the comparatively limited issue of the Irish
Church, it was the pc inciple of ecclesiastical endowments,
an entire revolution in the national habit and character,
which was at stake. Drawing from the. Ministerial
benches loud and continuous cheering, he denied the
moral competence of the house to decide that issue with-
out an appeal to the Country. It was a question which
the country alone could decide. For thirty years the
Liberal party bad been in power, but what had they done
to prepare
.the public mind for such a revolution? This
Parliament, he held, otght not to decide it ; it ought to
be reserved for the new and enlarged constituencies.
Being personally in favour of ecclesiastical endowments,
he strongly pbjected to tit destruction of the Irish Church.
The violence and confiscation with which it must be ac-
companied would be a great detrimer 'to I- d, where
there had already been violence ar,' enough ;
but he reserved to himself the ri wing the-
labours of the Commission now sitting, and atibe same
time he expressed a decided opinion that the moment had
arrived when there must be a considerable change in the
condition of the unendowed clergy of Ireland which would
elevate their influence. By this be did not mean what was
vulgarly called "paying the priests," making them the
stipendiaries of the State, of which he strongly disap-
proved. Referring to his oft-quoted speech of 1841, he
maintained that, though expressed perhaps with the heed-
less rhetoric which appeared to be the appanage of all
who sat below the gangway, the sentiment of it was right,
and ho concluded by avowing his belief that the Minis-
terial programme was the commencement of a new policy
for Ireland.

The motion and amendment were withdrawn, and the
debate came to a close.
In committee several supplemental votes in the Civil
Service Estimates were agreed to.
Some other business was disposed of, and the House
adjourned at five minutes to two o'clock.