The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-15 00:00:00

del

•er sentence of transportation were sent to a place, that,
therefore, it became a penal settlement. There were
"leicts, for instance, at Gibraltar, which could not be
e°oBldered as a penal settlement. I.lat the repeal of the
shun
Go:e Proposed by the Hon. Member would enable
,ther •erneseat to send convicts to the Caps, or any otne
-e'°ll, just the 5-11110 as to Woavvich, Portland, or any
ether 1 • ,
until acerte which convicts wernf Pm for hard labo.u. r,
1:--ot theinonld be Otherwise tinaiitled for. If any dts-
-I;"iti°4 'exo-isted !to ' exercie'ilas-44.C. power despotically.,
:0: their' had
th 6.
power
.''()1
counteracting it,
ci'implaints were easily- Mace known in this
4,lectltr.i'• he believed the repe .1 of this power would
e waY the means of enforcing the sentsnce of trans-
Aortae
ion -moment, and; would not effect the ob-
't,eet of the Hon. Gentleman, or protect the colonists from
w'envicts being sent out. And under what circumstances
kete convicts sent abroad? If transportation was to be
c
- order t 0
at an, it was the general opinion that the
Zeovicts should be dispersed as widely as possible, in
itl, ~ er 40
prevent that accumulation of vice and iniquity
hers e" hod resulted from the aggregation of large mim-
in a
01-- ',• • g ngs en public works. if the present Act
sesTtihbe repealed, there would be 119 altern.s.t.nrebtto
ate' e ''l,ll in masses, and keep them to work in masses,
Itith(o),.,":l° expiration of their. sentences they would,
ta.,, ti;" '-oY reformatory discipline, be dispersed as free
Hon.
Gest! ,rll4hout the colonies.-(Hear, hear.) The ‘
Pile -,,-` taso freely admitted that the Colonial-office was
Rs e",nunder great difficulties. He wished to impress, -
'4 31"nlbe i
jest
b, t„, ra the necessity of not trifling with the sub
whictraing assay the means of executing sf.,-,,nrtences
ing, aid eplarter acasions they were clamorous . win
pass-
tl rat* eh they desired to see carried out, in order
taisintel:llive the counties from the cost of their care and
1,11(1 bet, U. Transportation to Van Diemen's Land
4'n tusPended the late Government, analhtheen
test re'4llt3 had followed that step. It had lately e
he,r Lel iiisv"Y tnoderate number, but increased num:
/Tht k- "eon sent to Bermuda and Gibraltar. Now,
1144- "Etd been poin on at home ? In England the
18443: had not incregasml. The number transported in
Ints aba3 3,357; in 1848, 3,296; and in 1849 the number
Act
i,foltit son leas, partly owing to the operation of the
cosifi sat session, and partly owing to the increased
,tele last
c! the people. What was the case with respect
;111vJejt" ? The sentence of transportation for larceny
int, "etc numbers was one of the stronge t rounds
attsetBi°o for lessening the punishment. In Ireland in
isis I.ttile number transported was 700 ; in 1845, 627 •
18. t
il' 7°B • in 1847 (daring which transportation ito
tt sa-,ll'ernele's Land was suspended) the number had. n-
ilit
(It: 181°49,212t0s ; in 1848, the number was 2,72%
amounted to 3,039. There could
.b
creasecluht that offences in Ireland had greatly in-
d
Skew tiled although some of the sentences were cem-
Inch "t became necessary to visit many of them
tinan?lvere punishment, in order that it might not. go
Nq,n that the sentences would not be carried into
et,3 ,The conduct of many of the convicts sent t
het4u‘ entitled them to considerable indulgence, andiu_
Shit, teved that a number of them would prove as va
gone
fr settl
'eta holier- as many of the emigrants who had
',tee , ad to that country, for the crimes were ofnot.
Isle ( aetions character. It might, perhaps, be des.ir-
tn: reduce the ;her of classes of offences for which
itt.stt -4thwere liablneu to be transported; but so long as
:Dri4s -1,14 kept up this punishment, they ought not to
~..It.t .-Re Government of the power of carrying it into
104 „'''''e lion Gentleman had spoken of the. power.
" t-fl'et'cised despotically by the Colonial Minister,
Oren'lCloti-' Pint of fact, he never exercised it without
.the
11Pos ti," st other members cf the Government. Looking
4tirte tit? Inotion as one which would tenfold increase the
4144 eft;e,B 0f carrying the sentence of transportation
iteVeran°' and which would fetter the discretion of the
u''s Dopy tit in dealing with, the subject, he trusted
"gt't ih-ellle Would not adopt the suggestion of the Hon.
In
11 e .:' kOLESWORTII supported the motion, be-
lle t ',"e Colonial-office had proved itee'f not well qua-
,ht tin exercise the power of which his Hon. Friend
s is'4 *roue-lit forward the subject sought to deprive
wiltillt°of of this position, he had only to refer to
th Scl taken e 7th place at the Cape. It apt?! a-ed that on.
1 o • of August, 1848, the Colonial beere.axy sent
llto itelliar '
.41, to severa. of our colonies, offering. to se.n,d,
'Nil' esrtain description of convicts as a boon, bet
No '4 that no such convicts would he sent unless the
1,114,1"4t!= g,expressed their approval of the offer. At the
ithe-e 1-1. Smith brought the subject before the Le-
IFtt 1%,1": eipliell, and pledged his word that no con-
s o,st be sent unless approved of by the majority
) 0
furls, c3lonists ; but the Colonial Secretary, before
se ' for an answer to his dispatch, resolved
tllttOjet,ll4 that to the colony a certain number of
Ns- The Colonial Secretary, therefore, corn-
-41141t4k violated the promise he had made, and the
i 4 eZt d been that the colonists had virtually rebelled.
,:tea-,,'" ti net help regarding what hat happened at
t;Pire-e1 for
a source of great danger to our colonial
eYto a el' it proclaimed to the-A
.that they had
'the. 10 threats and resist in order to rid themselves
kenilr'' It'll of, the Colonial-office. He had presented
Vl5 • (41 hoes /
ists, atat. aew South Wales,
.signed by 6,000
Istnoh Ing their intention to resist transportationit
itta'ii t:- --Y, and their belief that, if persevered in
ithi4 ,e ad to
„„, sever the connexion between the colony
14,1' eo acri°-,"'"Y• 'Chat petition had been adopted before
Otis- "00 heard of the successful issue of the
bit„t at the cape.
Ho could not conceive how any
Olib Llfsrht feeling could ever consent to the colony in
t t' resided being converted into a convict settle-
tittski,4 l reference to the report of the Transportation
11 h'ilt le would show the evil effects which transports-
OS 4 t produced in New South Wales and Van
,a4t sin
rep Land. After the fearful amount of crime which
eti,selss t.t disclosed, it was not matter of surprise that
tttgert,ll' lets should hold the transportation system in
c/,,l'ai, t:,,,' The Right Hon. Baronet the Home Secr.e-
IP 4ryi "41 the present motion would create difficulties
0 r) rata
Nt. ).s i °ot sentences of transportation. If he (Sir
q,111) oltatrth) had no other reason for supporting the
484 ; 8,40U1d do it upon than ground alone, us he.
kktt ftir;3ll4-a3civeen anxious to abolish transportation. This
h'Veittiero right to make the colonies the cesspools
I:4t D 41,,,,na.-( (Hear.)
' ''' -‘)RNEY GENERAL remarked that the
1116441. Z? -et the Member for Southwark had not spoken
,lloSti:icieailieitio before the House. They were not at
on to consider either the question of the
tealt transportation or of the conduct of the Go-
Pr,,ltts, °t°wards the Cape. The question for discus-
kt;t is: IThether they should take from the Crown the
Stitl,ielip°t4sessed Of selecting places within its own
ii'atin,e, 4,, "15 Which convicts might be transported. If
,71fi 41'a-fine better ground for the motion than that it
(11117t145',:° the abolition of transportation,. ho hoped
1,140, ii °aid pause before consenting t. But, in
s'll p't'' trria• Gentleman who had broug at it forward
Oil,' Ilteesa his object to be the abolition of tramper-
r;4ntelp•,,B object Was to repeal the .sth Geo. IV., and
h
ill '‘' ' -it 'jug provisions of the 6th Geo. IV., will()
4454°, °t(l."Qr Majesty, with the advice of. the Privy
141w° f° 4 •
to
.4 ~.. Or OPolnt places within the dominions of the
1,,,,,11 it's transportation of felons and other cum-
rtt ''.hee.'"lourt:ble Gentleman had made no provision
le? ifr- erillainals should be sent provided that
hall
"e * tette.s_abolished. The simple object of the
t)this l'es '4O was to take away. from. the Crown
P(ltt ief fixing, by order in Council, places of
ytt!tt's 8h4C4t411.,_ Ifthe Hon. Gentleman eid not mean
1' n? Po oho of of the Acts, the Crow a would still
1i,11744,',Zr of sending convicts to fat) hulks and
.4;t,telt:7cosisuttt if he did mean to reperl. them, what
4t til.i''e.h It/I'd c'j the reformatory establishments at
Ott „clijeet Parkhurst? If the repeal on the statutes
, then he objected to it as a
laskt4l"-Ilitcitsitt4tei`3„:fofthtehnie motion
of the Crown, for
tt.''ea?!,et, i;ultvas not in the instance a statutory
9i .N a conditional commutation of the sen-
nsts t ths ' The Crown had always had the power
n7401,ef thece f transportation. It was in cense-
Pnq 9411% i, see of
that took place between the
Os lia„nt4 their masters that the statute was passed.
tOtilitttolt). Re could well understand that when the
V th:ftb;taa Abused the Crown should have claimed
siit)oDrston'egislature, but it did not therefore follow
th: the 41e4 thgative had ceased to exist. The 24th Geo.
14 liqli G la Crown to fix the place of transportation,
Ititn' tlicill' Ca:4e; IV. gave the same power. Suppose
It .7, rathe -n'ettlan obtained leave to introduce his
t 4116. alit.°Pose to ask the House to fix s omiet
ttNte tee settlements, or did he suppose
beepts al, e d
lit the Sty of the Government, in the first place,
tll Pt. einl4Bsellt of the colonists? The disadvantages
Oa tqCtlcit oeht, ceurse were evident. If a statute h d
kL•tslil,,Mtlsl,.,-1 unlierfeet information, making the Cape
ic4),",e,-,,,t'co, 6,ect, and if convicts had been sent out in
eeM b„ge Passive resistance lately offered at
nhis
fOtiltill't 15 i3,l•° been rebellion.-(Hear, hear.)
4-k h /PO 11,1 motion were insuperab'.e. Hon. Mem-
(l4:4l ktiltaatne to abolish transportation might vote
1111.ttt ibkqatkre e with ' Har )
t -13ellrr d his Right don. Friend the
~t-44 hA I:4)k 'ilts_tld should resist thetnotion.-( e .1
ereptlreastitee ;43X- agreed with the Attorney-taenera
,01,tecl Cr, li--:,,was not the time to discuss whether
ntl,m be-' M741014(1 be abolished or not. He was not
,h N lart liftent t that the prerogative of the Crown
the .I'tS shad by the motion. He believed that
ttsn's In' Pet,-4 exile were entirely statutable punish-
Ntltseereest,9ll were condemned to death, the Crown
snttittltis.(4lWas4° of commuting the sentence, but that
t"ttt;tie Ktrod e-nii,?t a sentence of transportation. Exile
j4V4122,1au j;:thy the 39th Elizabeth, and trans-
the ,I(3tOtiee -,t4 Charles 11., which gave a power
I+,c):lrly the 41011, to
America. His Hon. Friend who
,441,14,,,,n0 ,-,1 did not intend it should interfere
,1110 riots to%,,m.eelsion of the Privy Council, or that
,at4,tie,s'i; r b„-u, teh transportation had been directed
I,the,stss-',"otveedetql Places of transportation till speciti-
eti4,l;,‘ tor p°Y Parliament. It would always be
ttnk es't he 4' atlicruent to appoint new penal settle-
,lttittelnvict pot3Deti they would be cautious and not in-
ih, kii -ellan klation on a young and uncontaminated
YAttitet‘4l fingh he did not concur in all that
t, 4°El, 11,;r4f the
1411,14%41 kW
said it ;lion. Gentleman who had made
is duty to give it his support.
4°l7ttht, tisoeBalnd 110 could not- sup-port the motion. At
N etc ij,ustifie"43 thought his Hon. Friend would be
'Nit% Ile cit, f. in directing the attention of the
ti4tll),.th silliti bakees'i°,ll of
Penstraportation, unless Govern-
0a -ns e-,c), the sent - tit mlf Govern-
,,, )' sin
an n. before te . .
'eine is seisiner n the question, the House might very
eltt ta, easini,. what Parliament could do to aid the
~tetrteohraiet4 nkR out the sentence of transportation, or
'itt,ttho 'Of the in this res ect be imposed on the
lc) nit th,„ e Crown.
At PresentP the question was,
yttl,t'S etir,should do thatwhich would fatter the
1,110 ow. amiern,~,,
ikiln,,Asr,t4(llbri, atindnvvuu2.er.able instances the e sentence of
tt,ef distal;° ~.. Teta could only be effected by Go-
-- ta- what
't could to make a_proper distribu-
/tl'titttil‘QenPergeilts to sentenced. He thought the
\sesi,/vheis te,llll had put the question on toe high
L'4 Sy",truel!s,serted it to be one of prerogative. It
4N'it rn -he eron.t I,n:ion exercising its best prerogative
Nb11„1111itt‘ al 'ln"qdisap.ole.the cond;ti - which
, `Cored ' "'t in tr-o-•' • 'lll (10 .
, 4
pre r . ssthectrrunnsp.urtation might,
I boa at ogative of
011 0.,:;1111:;lelle.ally understoowd,n Crown,
for
ranmspaonry-
nuereet 48 . _ • .
R PUMSAMent imposed by

statute, and to be carried out according to the manner
provided by Act of Parliament. He did not think,
therefore, that there was any weight in the argument,
that the motion trenched on the prerogative of the
Crown. Formerly, when he was a young man at the
bar, the sentence used to run, that the criminal should
be transported to such place as her Majesty, with the
advice of her Privy Council, should appoint—leaving the
place at the discretion of the Crown and the responsi-.
bility of the Minister. Now the sentence was shorter,
and did not refer to the place. While he at present
could not support the motion he entreated the Govern-
ment to bring forward this important question of trans-
portstion. As far as his experience went, he was satis-
fied it was the only effective punishment, and the only
one which Parliament, in its mercy, could safely substi-
tute for a higher one. Improvements might be made in
the mode of carrying it eut; but it was a punishment
which must be carried out if they wished to inspire
wrong-3oera with terror. He could support no motion
that would lead to the abolition of transportation. If
Government would bring the subject forward they would
receive the thanks of every one who took an interest in
the correction of offenders.
Mr. lIUME said, that in supporting the motion he
must not be supposed as agreeing with the Hon. Mem-
brT for South wark, aa he had no wish to see transporta-
tion abo:isheil. Ile thought that what had occurred at
the Cape wai a strong reason why a power like that in
question should not be reposed in any individual. Every-
body knew that it was not the Government, but the Co-
lonial Secrttery, who exercised the power. If there
were any difficulty in finding proper places to which
criminals might be transported, it was the duty of the
Government to do everything in their power to prevent
men from becoming criminals. Ile found from the Syd.
?cry Gazette, received by the last mail, that great dis-
tarbances had taken place in Sydney, in consequence of
the determination of the Government to force convicts on
the colony. Those convicts had been landed almost
under the fire of cannon, and the Government House hsd
been placed in what might be called a state of siege. He
believed that the more they circumscribed the powers of
officers capable of acting as Earl Grey had acted, the
more likely were they to prevent scenes such as those to
which he had ri ferred.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before the House came to
a division on the question, be wished to put before them
the difficulties in which the Government were placed, and
which he thought would not be ut all diminished by the
adoption of the motion which the Hon. Gentleman had
made. The Hon. Gentleman proposed to repeal a par-
ticular part of one Act of Parliament, whereby her Ma-
jesty in Council was empowered to send transported con-
victs, according to her Majesty's discretion, to certain
places within her dominions. But at the same time the
Hon. Gentleman did not propose to repeal other parts
of former Acts which gave the same powers. He did not
propose to repeal the power which had been given to her
Majesty, a few years ego, to send convicts to Gibraltar,
and to other parts of her Majesty's distant possessions.
Under those circumstances, he (Lord J. Russell) could
not see what object the Hon. Gentleman could have in
view, except, as he said, to show that the power had
been abused, and that it ought therefore to be abo-
lished. Now, if that were the case, he really sub-
mitted to the House that they were going to decide a
very important question on very insufficient data. Suppose
the Hon. Gentleman had proved to demonstration that
the Noble Lord at present at the head of the Colonial-
office had been completely mistaken in his conduct with
respect to the Cape, it did not therefore follow that the
power which he had improperly exercised ought not to
exist.—(llear, hear.) Suppose that that conduct was
anog*.ther wrong, it did not therefore follow that other
Colonial Ministers might not make a better use of that
power which the Hon. Gentleman and others thought
might be very beneficially employed. It, therefore,
seemed a very illogical consequence to say, that because
the power had been in one particular instance abused,
should consequently be altogether destroyed. But as re
garded the particular instance to which the Run. Gen•
tleman had alluded, be had himself stated in one par

of his speech the very groat difficultie; with which the
Secretary of State for the Colonies had to contend; and
the lion. Gentleman could not estimate these difficulties
too highly. While, however, ho had stated them, and
had them fully before his eyes, he had made no allow-
ance far them. In the first place, the law of this country
authorises transportation. The judges, and not only the
judges, but the chairmen of quarter sessions, condemned
tc that punishment 3,000 persons every year; and when to
those were added the persons whose sentences were com-
muted, the total number annually sentenced to
transportation amounted to about 4,000. Now, if the
Colonial Secretary were to send all those persons to one
particular colony the result would be that the greatest
evils would arise from the concentration of so many cri-
minals—that the most horrible state of society would be
produced, and that the Colonial Secretary would receive
representations which no Minister could hear without a
desire to amend such an abuse; but if, on the ether
hand, he were to say that, finding himself embarrassed
by such a number of convicts, he wished to know from
the inhabitants of other colonies whether they would
receive a portion of them, ho was met by a complaint of
his tyrannical conduct. The Hon. Baronet the Member
for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth) bad said, " Was
there ever such tyranny? Here is a Secretary of State
asking a colony whether it has any objection to receive
convict 4." He (Lord J. Russell) had before him the
circular of his Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial-
office, in which his Noble Friend, after having stated
that there had been great complaints at the Cape of the
insufficient supply of labour, had expressed a wish to be
informed how far it was the opinion cf the colonists that
a number of convicts could, without any danger or in-
convenience, be sent among them. Now, could anything
be less arbitrary or tyrannical than that?
Sir W. MOLESWORTH—I did not say that it was
arbitrary or tyrannical.
Lord J. RUSSELL continued—The llon. Baronet
had complained of the tyranny of the Colonial-office in
the matter. The Hon. Gentleman who had made that
motion had said in April last that great objections were
entertainol at the Cape to the reception of the convicts
sent to that colony, and it had then been stated by his
Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home De-
partment and by himself, that if that were the case they
had no intention of forcing convicts on the colony
against its will. But there certainly did occur a case of
very great embarrassment for the Government, and one
in which not only his Noble Friend the Secretary for
the Culonics, but in which the Irish Government also,
and his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home
Department, had found themselves involved. The num-
ber of persons transported from Ireland bad increased
by a very considerable amount; they had increased
within a very few years from 700 to 3,000; and last
year they had actually amounted to that latter number.
But many of those persons who had been sent to Ber-
muda were persons really unfit for the hard work
which they had there to perform. They were per-
sons who, under the pressure of famine, had com-
mitted thefts for which they had incurred the
sentence of transportation; but who, under ordinary
circumstances, and if they had not been placed un-
der the pressure of famine, would never, perhaps, have
appeared before a criminal court. Well, it had been
thought, after some consultation upon the subject, that
if 300 of those persons were sent to the Cape they
would do no injury to the colony, while ney would
enable the Government to send to Bermuda some of those

convicts who were crowding the gaols in Ireland. His
Noble Friend at the head of the Colonial-office had

stated, in a dispatch which was before the House, that
he had supposed the inhabitants of the Cape would not
feel any great objection to receive those 300 persons
whose crimes were not of a very atrocious character, but
he la-nented to say that ho had been entirely mistaken,
and he therefore withdrew the order he had issued upon
the subject. Now ho (Lord J. Russell) asked if there
was anything in that transaction of so very tyrannical a
character—(Boar, hear)—or anything betokening a de-
sire to deal oppressively with the colony ? He did not
wish to go into the history of what had occurred at the
Cape, because he roally thought that, although the
colonists were fully justified in saying, as they had been
invited to do, that they did not wish that convicts should
be sent among them, the manner in which their re•

sistanee had been expressed was one that did no
honour to thole who had taken a leading part in it.
—(Hear, hear.) Sir H. Smith had stated, that the pro-
posed introduction of the convicts had been made a
pretext for public agitation; and he (Lord J. Russell)
had no doubt but that statement was a correct one. Ho
thought that Sir H. Smith, who had been placed in most
difficult circumstances, had gone very far fur the purpose
of appeasing the irritation felt upon the subject. Sir H.
Smith had said, that although he had been instructed to
laud the convicts, he did not propose to do so, but that

he would kayo them in the vessel at anchor in Simon's

Bay, until he should have received further orders from
home as to the mode of disposing of them. In the

month of April last it had been declared in that House,
and in a dispatch of his. Noble Friend at the Colonial-
office, that the Cape was not a colony to which convicts
would be sent in future; and Sir IL Smith had de-

clared that he would not land those 300 persons
until he should have r peeived further instructions from

home. Now, under t hose circumstances, it appeared
to him (Lord J. Russell) that people who had nothing at
heart but a wish not to have convicts in the colony might

have been satisfied with those declarations. But instead of

that, the excitement had ;become greater than ever, and a
gentleman in the colony had asked, at a public meeting,
if it was to be borne that they should be contaminated

by seeing a transport at, anchor in Simon's Bay, and
which they knew contarted convicts. Now, really that
was carrying the objection to convicts to an extent
which ono could hardly comprehend.—(Hear, hear.) It
was well known that there were, at the very same time,
some 200 or 300 of tb,o c,rdinary convicts of the colony
at work at Rubin's Isl arid, where they might be always
seen; and yet the sig ht of a ship anchored in Simon's
Bay, and having convicts on board, was a contamination
which the colony could riot bear.—(Hear, hear.) Really
they had carried to a inn at excessive length their excite-
ment and indignation up, )n the subject. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had chosen to rss ise that topic, and to make it a
main support of his mot' on; and had he not done so, he
(Lord J. Russell) shout i not at all have entered into a
discussion of the mattes . Ha said, therefore, on the
whole, the motion of Um Hon. Gentleman was inexpe-
dient; that even if he had proved his case with regard
to the Cape, that proof would not bear out his motion;
and that that instance itself had been so grossly ex2g-
geratEd that it could ?Jot justify the conclusion which
the Hon. Gentleman r nder.voured to deduce from it.
Mr. STANFORD s uid ho should feel bound to vote
against the motion. .?Jr: did not, however, wish it to be
understood that he waF. therefore indisposed to relieve the
colonies of the burden of transportation. But he did nut
think that was the pr 0110 occasion for discussing that
great question.
Mr. ADDERLEIe in reply, said that the Noble Lord
would not add to nis reputation by taking up the cudgels
Lori Grey.. The surprise which the Noble Lord
felt the iltliabLanti of cif, Cape alLauhing iiiiportauce

to so trliiing a matter as the location amongst them of
a few hundred cox, ids, reminded him of the taunts