The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-16 00:00:00

sympathy with, and wished for the motion of his Noble
Friend, and if he believed it to be consistent with the
good of the community, end the interests of the manu-
facturing labourers themselves, he would not hesi-
tate to give his support to the proposition. With regard
to the master manufacturers themselves, they consented
to all the restraints which this Bill sought to impose on
them, but they did so on the understanding that the Go-
vernment were resolved to stand firm after having fully
and fairly considered the subject. He was quite aware
that the Chamber of Commerce of Manchester would
have entertained this question, if he had not believed that
her Majesty's Government would resist this particular
point. With regard to the feelings of the workmen
themselves, he did believe there was that un-
animity amongst them which his Noble Friend
supposed. He had high authority for saying that
the labourers, themselves naturally enough stimulated by
the desire of gain, invariably preferred going to those
masters where there was most work done, than to those
where the work was limited. On this very day he had
received two communications from working men, one in
favour of the proposition of his Noble Friend, and the
other as decidedly opposed it, declaring that the seventh
clause was decidedly hostile to their interests. In the
beginning of his speech, his Noble Friend said that he
would not enter into the commercial part of the argu-
ment. Now this appeared to him the most important
consideration. If he could show satisfactorily to the
Committee that the inevitable effect of an abridgment of
the time of labour would be to diminish the wages of
those employed, then he would say that, with regard to
the interest of the working-claseses themselves, rightly
under Stood, there never was a graver question debated
in Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) The improvements which
took place in machinery in latter days were so rapid, that
t had to be renewed in twelve or thirteen years.
lie was told that the master manufw;turers had recently
to pull down and re-erect machinery not worn out ;
machinery, in fact, that was quite perfect, and had to
substitute for it new machinery with increased
powers, in consequenee of the improvements
that were continually being made. Now the ca-
pital expended in manufacturers, as well as the
interest on that capital, depended on the use of
machinery. Let them see, then, what was the ques-
tion. It was necessary that they should replace ma-
chinery in the course of every twelve or thirteen years,
and they were now discussing whether they should
abridge by one-sixth that period in which capital was
replaced and outlay restored. Why even the period of
twelve years was hardly sufficient, and if they abridged
it by one-sixth they would render impossible the at-
tainment of the advantages under the present system.
The first and inevitable effect of such an interference
would be the lowering of wages by the mill-owners.
That principle was thoroughly understood, not only by
master manufacturers, but by intelligent operatives, who
constituted the great majority of their class. In con-
firmation of this opinion, he would read them the opinion
of a person who was very intimate with the subject, and
which would put the matter in a clearer point of view
than he could hope to put it before the House—he re-
ferred to the report of his excellent friend, Mr. Homer,
presented in 1841—a gentleman who discharged most
faithfully the duties of Inspector, and who communi-
cated to the public in the most faithful manner the in-
formation he had obtained. In discussing the question
of the restriction of the hours of work, he said that
he had made an estimate of the loss which a cotton -mill
would sustain by working eleven instead of twelve hours
a day ; by working eleven hours a day the loss would
amount to 150 L, while by working only ten hours a day
it would amount to no less than 1,530/. It was not a
mere doubling of the loss, but it proceeded by geometri-
cal progression. Unless the millowner could obtain a
proportionately higher price for his commodities he must
be forced to reduce the wages of his workmen or abandon
his trade. The reduction of wages in the case of work-
ing only eleven hours per day would be 13 per cent.,
while in the case of ten hours it would be nearly 25 per
cent. That was the statement of a competent judge, and
he (Sir J. Graham) believed it was perfectly correct.
The question they were discussing was, whether through-
out the manufacturing districts they would make one sud-
den and general fall in wages to the amount of 25 per cent.
His belief was, that the adoption of the motion of his
Noble Friend would produce that effect, and so, be-
lieving, he could not recommend the House to depart
from the present enactment, which limited labour to
twelve hours. With respect to the failure of health in
the manufacturing districts, his Noble Friend had very
much deceived himself. The subject was a most im-
portant one, but unless he (Sir J. Graham) was very
much misinformed, it would be found to be the fact, that
when there was full work, and even some excess of la-
bour in point of time beyond the twelve hours,
with, however, good wages, the health of the
manufacturing districts was in a satisfactory condition.
On the other hand, with short time, even shorter than
the number of hours proposed by his Noble Friend—
when there was a failure of demand for manufactures,
and the manufacturing interests were distressed in conse-
quence, as happened a few years ago, with even so short
a period of work as eight hours, instead of ten, the
loges being relatively low, it was found that then
disease spread through the manufacturing districts,
joined with immorality and distress. He believed
that the adoption of the motion of his Noble Friend
would invert the whole order of proceedings in those
districts, and a measure founded upon it would be
violently resisted. As far as the working-classes
were concerned it would be fatal to their best
interests, and inconsistent with the peace and
happiness of this country; while the working-classes
would enjoy the benefit of a shorter time of labour, their
wages would be proportionally reduced, and thus one of
the greatest evils would be inflicted on the community;
and although his (Sir J. Graham's) feelings and wishes
were with his Noble Friend, still, his sense of duty never
more clearly pointed out to him the course he ought to
pursue than on the present occasion, and, therefore, re-
luctantly, but firmly, he must resist the proposition of
his Noble Friend.

After a few words from Lord ASHLEY in explanation
of some matters which he had stated in the course of his
speech,
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said he had received many
communications in reference to the Bill proposed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, and although there was a complete
recognition of the principle adopted in factory legisla-
tion, yet at the same time there had been manifested, as
far as his knowledge went, from all parts, both among
operatives and master manufacturers, a willingness to
take the measure which her Majesty's Government had
committed to the House. That approbation might not,
perhaps, extend to every little matter of detail, but it
certainly did to that important alteration which the
measure introduced, namely, the diminution of the hours
during which children should be employed from eight to
half-past six ; and also the limiting the labour of young
persons and women of all ages to twelve hours. That
proposition had been received cheerfully, as
he was told, by master manufacturers and also by the
operatives. With regard to the proposition of the
Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire (Lord Ashley),
he could not say it was within his knowledge that there
was any approbation of it, either amongst masters or
operatives. He had made it his business to inquire and
ascertain, to the best of his ability, what the feelings of
the operatives themselves were upon this proposition of
shortening the hours of labour, and he had been told by
many of them, evidently intelligent and thinking opera-
tives—persons who influenced their class that
they had considered it an improper interference
with the value of the only property they
had to dispose of, namely, their labour, and that they
could not agree to that proposition whatever might be
their necessities—whatever the emergencies of working
hard to earn a livelihood—that they could not agree to
being prevented working twelve hours per day in a
factory whenever employment offered itself.—(Hear.)
It might be thought that by preventing young persons
and women of all ages from working more than ten
hours a-day, they did not interfere with the labour
of male adults. But that was not so. For
to enact such a limitation of work to them
was in effect to enact that the factories
themselves, the machinery, the engines—that, in fact, the
whole of the operations should not go on more than ten
hours every day. They were not solely dealing with the
labour of women and young persons, but also with the
labour of adults, and the application of fixed capital,
which had been so ably dwelt upon by the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State. The labour of young
persons and women was inseparably connected with that
of adults, and the effect of diminishing the hours in the
manner proposed would be an injury inflicted on the
great staple of manufactures of not less than twenty
per cent. The Noble Lord seemed not to think that an
important part of the question, but he (Mr. M. Gibson)
maintained that it was a most important part. For if
they destroyed the profit of the manufacturers, they
destroyed the manufactures altogether. By cutting oil'
two hours of the labour of those persons, they might in
effect cut off all labour from them, and the means of
obtaining a subsistence. So that, with the most bene-
volent motives, they might, in fact, inflict the greatest
of all possible evils upon the very classes they wished to
benefit.—(Hear, hear.) As the Right Hon. Gentleman
alluded to the great importance of not destroying the
profit of the manufacturer, he would take the liberty of
reading the remarks of Mr. Senior upon that question.
That gentleman, accompanied by some others, went
down in the year 1836 to the manufacturing districts,
with a view to ascertaining the effect of factory legisla-
tion, and of making observations upon the circumstances
of the factory population. The document was dated
March 28th, 1836, and was addressed to Mr. Poulett
Thompson. (The Hon. Gentleman then read the paper,
which showed that in working twelve hours per day the
last hour was that which turned in any profit, and he
then proceeded to argue that if that hour were cut off
the profits of the capitalist must go with it, and conse-
quently he must lose the means of employing the opera-
tives, whose means of subsistence would be thus destroyed.)
With respect to the statement of the Noble Lord as to
the number of miles walked each day by the piecers,
he (Mr Gibson) heard that statement with surprise.
From the practical measurement of Mr. Greg and
others, and not from any mathematical theory, it had
been ascertained that the number of miles walked per
day by the piecers was eight, and not twenty. With
respect to the question of health, the consequences
of residence in crowded towns were often attri-
buted to the influence of the factory system.
It had been said that it was not so much the hours of
labour as the unwholesome influence to which they were
subjected during the labour. He aid not believe that
there was any truth in the statement. Mr. Horner had
said that the great cause of the evil was the superabun-
dance of labour. Why not then put the axe to the root
of the evil, by increasing the field of employment, and
enabling the working classes to protect themselves? If
the landowners were truly desirous of abridging the
labour and increasing the comforts of the working
classes, why did they not come forward with a measure
for enabling them to get bread cheaper, and repeal the
corn-laws ? As to the employment of children, the pre-
sent law protected children under of the age of 13 ; and
these were still further protected by the Bill of her Ma-