The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

PETITIONS.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the
agriculturists of Ripon, praying for the imposition of
a protective duty on foreign corn. He gave notice that
on Tuesday next Lord Redesdale would draw the at-
tention of their Lordships to the present depressed
state of agriculture.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS presented a petition
against the Sunday Trading Prevention Bill, the pro-
visions of which were tyrannical. He hoped the second
reading of the Bill would not be pressed this evening.
The Earl of HARROWBY said the Bill was founded
on the report of a Committee of the House of Commons,
and under such circumstances he thought it hardly fair
to oppose the second reading of the Bill. He should
certainly press the second reading of the Bill this
evening.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented several petitions
in favour of a Ten Hours' Bill and against the relay
system; also some petitions complaining of agricultural
distress, and praying for the re-enactment of protection;
among others, one from Dorsetshire, from a,public
meeting.
Lord PORTMAN should have taken the oppor-
tunity of expressing his regret that the meeting had
been held, had it not been that a melancholy occurrence
which had then taken place would soon become the sub-
ject of judicial investigation.
The Duke of RICHMOND was sorry if any unfortu-
nate occurrence had taken place, but he rejoiced that the
meeting had been held by the farmers, who, they might
depend upon it, would not suffer the Free-traders to ride
roughshod over them.
LORD-LIEUTENANCY OF IRELAND.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL asked if it was true
that the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland was about
to be abolished as had been stated.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could give the Noble
Earl no information as to what might be the future in-
tentions of her Majesty's Government, but he would re-
mind the Noble Earl that the office could only bo
abolished by Act of Parliament.
REMOVAL OF OBSTRUCTIONS IN THE CORN

TRADE (SCOTLAND) BILL.

Lord BROUGHAM moved the committal of this Bill.

The Duke of RICHMOND urged the postponement
of this Bill until May, in order to give time to consult
the landlords of Scotland on the subject.
Lord BROUGHAM had every wish that the Bill
should receive tho amplest consideration, but if he
were to postpone it until May he would risk losing the
Bill. He would move the committal now, and would
not object to postpone the next stage until after Easter.
The Earl of MINTO considered it important that
time should be given to the people of Scotland to con-
sider the Bill.
The Duko of RICHMOND would be satisfied if time
was given to consider the measure, which greatly affected
the rights of the landlords of Scotland.

Lord BROU,GIIAM would not object to any delay
which would not throw out the Bill.

The Bill then passed through Committee.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE moved the bringing
up the report of the amendments to this Bill. He sug-
gested to the Noble Duke (Wellington) the propriety
of permitting the report to be now received, and of
moving the clause of which he had given notice on the
third reading.
The Duke of WELLINGTON agreed to the sugges-
tion of the Noble Marquis, and gave notice that on the
third reading of the Bill he should move a clause pre-
venting any person appearing in arms in Ireland out of
his house.

Lord MONTE AGLE gave notice of his intention to
move certain clauses on the third reading.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH suggested some
verbal alterations in several of the clauses.

The LORD CHANCELLOR explained the legal
effect of the clauses as at present worded, and of the
alterations suggested by the Noble Earl.
After a short conversation, in which Earl Grey, the
Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Stanley, and Lord Beau-
mont tock part as to the legal meaning of the terms
" shall," " will," and " may be lawful,"
Lord BROUGHAM suggested that his Noble Friends
opposite should reconsider the wording of the Bill, for
the purpose of making it uniform throughout.
The Earl of ELLENBOROUGH gavo notice that
upon the third reading he would move an amendment
on the second clause, which would give magistrates the
same discretion with regard t ) attending the meetings,
as they would have in publishing the proclamation.
The report was then received, and the third reading
fixed for to-morrow (this day).
SUNDAY TRADING BILL.

The Earl of HARBOWBY, on moving the second
reading of the Sunday Trading Bill, said he would not
enter into any statement on the subject, as it would be
proposed to send the Bill to a Committee up-stairs.
The Bill was then read a second time, and their Lord-
ships adjourn e I.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 7.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'clock.

PETITIONS.

Several petitions were presented against Sunday labour
in the Post-office; also several petitions in favour of the
Martine Bill.
Sir W. PATTEN presented a petition from Lancaster
in favour of county financial boards.
Mr. B. HUGHES presented a petition from Carnar-
von to the same effect.

Mr. MINTZ presentei a petition from Birmingham
against the excise duty on paper and the advertisement
and penny newspaper stamp duty.
Mr. SPOONER presented a petition from Rugby in
favour of county financial boards.
Mr. HEYWOOD presented petitions from Chorley
and other places in Lancashire praying for a reduction
of the duty on tea.
Mr. CHARTERIS presented several petitions from
places in Scotland against the Marri age Bill.
Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition from a place
in Kent praying the House to take into consideration
the remuneration given to surgeons in the Royal Navy.
Mr. 11. BERKELEY presented a petition from a place
in Gloucestershire in favour of county financial boards;
also petitions from Wakefield and Bristol in favour of
the ballot.

Mr. BUCK presented a petitio❑ from a place in De-
vonshire against the duty on tea.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from a union in
Yorkshire praying for the establishment of county
financial boards; also petitions from Norwich and other
places against taxes on the diffusion of knowledge.
Mr. PILKINGTON presented a petition from a place
in Lincolnshire praying for an alteration in the law of
removal and settlement. _ . _

Mr. BANKES presented a petition from Halifax in
favour of a Ten Hours Bill.

Mr. WRlGHTpresented a petition from Manchester
signed by 19,000 persons, praying for a reductio❑
of the duty on tea; also petitions from Galashieis and
Dalkeitli praying that an affirmation might be substi-
tut-d for an oath where persons entertained a conscien-
tious objection to take the latter.
Mr. MILES presented a petition from Salisbury
against the Marriage Bill.
REAL PROPERTY.

Mr. LOCKE KING gave notice that this day fortnight
he should move that, considering that the recent legis-
lation of the House bad conferred large benefits upon all
classes but the landed interest, it was expediedt to
remove the existing restrictions on the transfer
of real property, and allow real property to be bought
and sold according to the same rule that prevailed in
reference to• personal property.
ADMISSION OF JEWS INTO PARLIAMENT.

Mr. P. WOOD gave notice that on an early day he
should move the appointment of a Committee to search
the journals of the House for any precedents which re-
late to the admission of Jews to a seat in the House
without being previously sworn on the Holy Gospel;
also to inquire into and report upon the circumstances
under which Mr. Deedos, in 1833, was allowed to make
an affirmation to the effect of the usual oaths on taking
his seat; and to inquire into and report upon the legis-
lative enactments which allow Jews and persons not
professing Christianity to make affirmation in courts of
law, and be sworn on the Bible where oaths on the
Evangelists are usually reguired.
LORD-LIEUTENANCY OF IRELAND.
Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice, that at the sitting of
the House to-morrow he should ask the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government if it were the intention of
Government to introduce or support during the present
session of Parliament any measure for the abolition of
the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland.
SARAWAK.

Mr. HUME gave notice that this day fortnight he
should call the attention of the House to the proceedings
of her Majesty's forces in Sarawak. He also took that
opportunity of complaining that certain papers which he
had moved for on the subject had not been presented to
the House, and said it would be his duty to adopt some
means for securing obedience to the orders of the House.
QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.
Mr. B. OSBORNE wished to call the attention of the
latlltioteeun toHon. Member
of l
. a matter of privilege. He had seen to-day in
the Morning Chronicle an advertisement to the effect that
.Nete Housemhberfor
toa Cambridgematter thatintendeodccutorrecd in
call the
recent debate in that House. Ho (Mr. B. Osborne)
wished to know whether it was competent for the Hon.
Member to comment upon a former debate.
The SPEAKER said an Hon. Member could not
comment on a former debate without transgressing the
rules of the House.
Mr. HUME asked whether it was proper for any Hon.
ifember to advertise in the public papers on such a
subject?—(Great laughter, which drowned the reply of
the Speaker.)
Mr. CAMPBELL said it was his intention to have
come down to the House this day to call the attention
of the House to a metier personal to himself, personal
to the inhabitants of Kensington, and personal to the Hon.
and Gallant Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne).
He (Mr. Campbell) thought in what took place a
short time ago he bad suffered considerable misrepre-
sentation on two pints at the hands of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman.. The first point was with reference

to the intercourse with that Hon. and Gallant Member's
constituents, and, secondly, with reference to language
in this House, with regard to that intercourse.
Ho had been advised by several very respectable friends
- -(Llught-r)--thnt he hwi b ttcr leave this complaint
and thi . inquiry until after the debate, which was fixed
far the 28th of February.—(Hear.) Since he had
cores (Ira n to the Hothe, he had been informed, that his
Noble Fri, od at the head of the Government, had some
important matters to suggest, and as he was always ready
to make private convenience subservient to the public
service, he was desirous of reserving what he had to
say until a future opportunity.—(Herr, and laughter.)
Yet, at the same time, he must say that he was exceed-
ingly desirous that the matter upon which they were
now engaged should be brought to as speedy a conclu-
sion as possible.—(Laughter.) Several Members behind
him were using badinage, but it would not affect him,
except in so far as it would prevent his explanation.
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Gentleman was
perfectly competent at the present moment to make any
explanation ho pleased.
Mr. CAMPBELL then said that in a speech he
had intended to make he had been interrupted in what
ho had intended to say, or he should have
been able to declare his sentiments to the House.
He had received a communication from the secretary
of a Reform Association at Kensington, inviting him
(Mr. Campbell) to take part in a meeting there. He
(Mr. Campbell) wrote to the secretary to say that he did
not agree with the views of the association, but ulti-
mately consented to attend the meeting, and at a great
inconvenience did so. He had left the House to do so ;
and he believed the Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Oxford was on his legs at the time,
and he must apologise for leaving him.—(Great
laughter.) On arriving at the meeting he found
that it was not fully assembled, but consisted in arly
altogether of boys.—(Laughter.) After some others
had spoken, be was requested to address the meeting,
although the secretary was aware of his (Mr. Campbell's)
views on the subject; and he complied with that request
because it would have been uncivil not to have done so.
A Chartist rose up on a bench just opposite him—
(Laughter)—not the Hon. Member for Nottingham
(Mr. F. O'Connor), nor the Hon. Member for West
Surrey (Mr. Drummond), but a Chartist, who attacked
him because he had a seat in the House of Commons,
and who declared him (Mr. Campbell) to be a
fair specimen of .that assembly—(Loud laughter)—
and he confessed he met that charge with considerable
indignation.—(Continued laughter.) He regretted to
find that the character of that House did not stand in
such high estimation in Kensington as it did in other
places.—(Loud laughter.) Great confusion took
place at the meeting—(ae we understood the
Hon. Gentleman, who, we may mention excited the
greatest amusement and hilarity in the House owing
to the genuine simplicity with which he deliverel his
address)—in the midst cf which he retired, and arrived
at the House at the time of the division, and explained
what had taken place to his lion. Friend near him.
He hoped the House would acquit him of
any disposition to make any false representaticns.
With regard to the language which the Hon. and
Gallant Member ascribed to him, he begged to assure
the Hon. and Gallant Member that he was quite mis-
taken in supposing that in speaking of the inhabitants
of Kensington he made use of the term low people."
lie would not dispute that the Hon. Gentleman might
have been under the impression that he did use that
language, but he did nut find it in any of the reports
of his speech, and therefore before the Hon. and Gal-
lant Member spoke so positively on the matter he ought
to have satisfied himself that the language really was
used. It was almost unnecessary fir him to say that the
sentiments ascribed to him by the Hon. and Gallant
Member with regard to the working classes were not at
all the sentiments he held about them. The conduct of
the working man was highly deserving of commenda-
tion, while his character was entitled to every respect.—
(Order, order).
The SPEAKER was quite sure the Hon. and Learned
Member would see the necessity of refraining from any
further observations. It was not usual to refer to what
had passed in a former debate in this way, and if any
Hon. Member had misrepresented the views of the Hon.
Gentleman, the Hon. Gentleman ought to have made his
explanation at the close of that Hon. Member's speech.
If the Honourable Member wished to clear up any mis-
representation as to his character, he ought to be strictly
limited to that.—(Hear.)
Mr. CAMPBELL said he would only thank the
House for the indulgence they had given him, and he
would assure them that it was not unappreciated.
Mr. B. OSBORNE said, after the very simple story
which had been told to the House by the lion. Member
for Cambridge, it was really unnecessary to trouble the
House further with the matter. He (Mr. B. Osborne)
could assure the Hon. Member that what he had said
with regard to the respectable people of Chelsea and
Hammersmith was perfectly satisfactory, and he ac•
cepted his apology with the greatest kindness.—(Rears
cf laughter.)
EPISCOPAL REVENUES.
_ _

Mr. DEE DES asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was the intention of the Government to bring
forward this session any Bill founded on the report of
the Episcopal and Capitular Revenues Commission?
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say tLat the
subject a ould be brought before the House after Esster,
but he could not say what time after Easter.
TILE IRISH POOR-LAW.

Mr. CLEMENTS said he had seen from the report of
the Irish Poor-law Commissioners that they were in
course of declaring the working out of the commission
with reference to Connaught. He would ask the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department what was the
reason that they had taken a very small portion of Con-
naught, viz., the county of Leitrim, for that commission?
I❑ the county of Leitrim there were three portions—
small ones it was true, but not, nevertheless, to be neg-
lected o❑ that account—which seemed to have been left
out of the calculations of the authorities; and he wished
there fore to inquire whether there was any design of
intentionally leaving out these the ee portions?
Sir G. GREY was not aware that these portions bit]
nut been touched. The arrangement of these mitters
laid exclusively within the duty of the Poor-law Com-
missioners, and he was not, therefore, in the possession
of sufficient information to give any definite reply, but
he would make the requisite inquiries in order that he
might give a satisfactory answer to the question.
REDUCTION OF LIGHT DUES.
Mr. FORSTER wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Right Honourable Gentleman the'Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade to bring in any measure
this session for the reduction of the lighthouse dues
chargeable upon sea-going vessels.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that certainly when the
subject of the Trinity Board was before the House last
session ho had incidentally allude.] to the light dues,
hoping to lessen the expenses which now resulted from
them, but he had this session introduced several impor-
tant measures connected with the mercantile marine,
not one of which had he had an opportunity of bringing
before the House, and he should therefore feel perfectly
unjustified in bringing any other matter before the
House until these were disposed of.
DIVISION OF IRISH UNIONS.

In reply to a question from Mr. li. HERBERT,
Sir G. GREY said he did not know enough upon the
reply,ture day. He was not at
but would obtain the
subject
necessarya!
informationpre en present to g give a r a
future
all aware that there was any intention whatever to divide
the unions.
THE NEW LORD CHIEF JUSTICE.
Colonel SIBTLIORP rose to ask a question of which
he had given notice, namely, whether such appointments
as made, since the last
session
ofbrn Parliament,
o willrna way t
be
subject to such reductions
in their salaries and allowances as may be recommended
by Parliament, and especially the recent appointment
of the Lord Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench; and,
whether Lord Campbell accepts the same salary as Lord
Denman did, viz., 8,000/. par annum, instead cf 10,0001.
as the Act of Parliament grants.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that Lord Campbell
had accepted the office of Lord Chief Justice at the
same salary as Lord Denman—namely, 8.0001. per
annum. lie ought also to state that the arrangement
with respect to the diminution of the salary of the
office had been made by the Lords of the
Treasury without any Bill being passed fur
the purpose in Parliament ; but he should
presently give notice of a Bill for that purpose. It was
not proper to bring in any nit asure without consulting
Lord Denman, and he might say that this Bill would
have Lord Der,man's full approval. With respect to
Lord Campbell, he had been informed at the time that
her Majesty's pleasure had been notified to him that the
salary would be 8,000/. per annum. He might also state
that it was intended to reduce the salary of the Lord
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas to 7,000/, per annum.
With respect to the first part of the question, he could
not state that it was generally intended to reduce all the
salaries of officers appointed since the last session of
Parliament, but some salaries would be reduced, and
those officers whom it was intended to reduce had re-
ceived notice.
Mr. HUME wished to know if the pension which Lord
Campbell was to receive had been settled?

Lo-rd J. RUSSELL said that n) arrangements had
yet been come to.
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know if Lord Camp.
bell would still continue to be a Minister ?
Lord J. RUSSELL said that Lord Campbell had
already ceased to hold a seat in the Cabinet.
ELECTIVE FRANCHISE.
Lord NUGENT asked Sir De Lacy Evans whether
ho might be understood as engaging himself, in any
event, to press forward to a discussion and division, on
the earliest open day after the Easter recess, the measure
which he postponed on Tuesday evening last, respecting
au extension of the elective franchise?
Sir DE LACY EVANS replied that it was his inten-
tion to press the measure, but if any unforeseen circum-
stance should arise to prevent him, the Noble Lord was
at liberty to bring forward the subject himselt.
Lord NUGENT said the House would perhaps allow
him to give a conditional notice. That in the event of
his Hon. and Gallant Friend not considering it necessary
to bring forward the question on an early day after
Easter, he should feel it his duty to give notice that on
as early day after that period he should move for
leave to bring in a Bill to the effect that all
occupiers of dwelling-houses assessed to the poor-rates
or taxes, should be qualified to vote for Members of
Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.
This Bill was read a first time.
KILRUSH UNION.
Mr. P. SCROPE called the attention of the House to
the social state of the union of Kilrush, in the county of
Clare, for the purpose of moving for the appointment of
a Special Commission to inquire into the same, and into
ha means that might be adopted for its amelioration.
He hoped that some suggestion might be made, or some
plan devised by such a Commission, to rescue from starva-
tion and the grave the unhappy population of this union,
which he said was situated at the western extreme
of the county of Clare, and formed an acute

right angle. The population was 80,000 in 1841,
and the raluation in 1845 was something under 60.0001,
and though it would appear to be a densely populated
district, the average number of acres per 'head was
consid A-ably larger than n many other unions.
Capt sin dy gay tile f )110 wing aecount
of the p.pulotion in I,ls:—The Captain repre-
setitc.l the as to be a set of amphibious polio
grAvr,ng, fish coll.,.cting, and turf gathering r-
pula.ion. As had fishers as they were farmers, occupy-
ing potato land for which they paid three pounds an acre,
although it was not worth fifteen shillings, and subject
to the casualties of the season, without receiving
any assistance of their landlords. Assistance of
that kind as a general rule was never given, and the
landlords not only neglected their property, both as re-
gards their own interest and that of their tenants. No
wonder then that a population so situated should have
felt the pressure of the poteta failure in 18-16 with
most overwhelming severity. Not only did they
lose their means of subsistence, but they were ex-
posed to the exorbitant rents which they had
to pay. All classes, therefore, suffered, and it was not
to be wondered at that when the relief granted by Par-
liament in 1846 and 1847 was afforded to them, the en-
tire population of the district should have rushed with
one accord on the relief works. No wonder that there
should have been a sort of general scramble for it,
and that the expenditure on the occasion should
have reached an extraordinary magnitude. The House
would hardly credit it, bat he could assure them it was
a fact, that in the county of Clare alone the expenditure
on the relief works was no less than 470,0001.; and
in the parish of Kilkenny alone the expenditure on
the relief works reached to the enormous sum of 110,0001.
The county of Clare was most remarkable fur the
amount of destitution, for the rapacity of its relief
committees, and for the difficulty with which its destitu-
tion was relieved. In many instances the money in-
tended for the poor was withheld from them and
dist,ibuted among the friends and favourites of the
relief committees. In the year ending August,
1847 the union of lEilrush had actually received no less
an amount of public money than 143,0001. If that
money had been wisely expended he (Mr. P. Scrape)
would hardly have objected to its being granted; but it
was expended in a manner rather tending to increase the
destitution of the district than to enable it to become self.
supporting. In August, 1847, the board of guardians
of Kilrush entered on their office, and in the preceding
month of July no less a number than 51,000 of the in-
habitants had been relieved by the soup kitchen mode of
relief. The Hon.Gestleman then read several extracts from
the reports of poor-law unions, in which it was stated
that the whole of the business had been very
loosely conducted, that the inmates were wanting
every necessary, that 535 deaths had occurred in the
several unions, that the arrears of poor-rates were prin-
cipally owing from the guardians themselves. The
fact was, that the really destitute were made to give
place to the able bodied. In the union of Kilrush,
on the sth if January, there were 1,250 in the workhouse,
but there were 7,000 and upwards of out-door paupers
who were altogether without the commonest necessaries
for the sustenance of physical existence. The system
adopted seemed to be to reverse the natural order of things.
On this point Captain Kennedy remonstrated with the
guardians, but unsuccessfully. The consequence was a
frightful amount of mortality among the destitute evicted
peasantry. Captain Kennedy's account stated that these
evictions were carried to a great extent, and the misery
and destitution had increased, in consequence, to an
amount which tho House would scarcely credit, unless it
had studied the authentic documents on this subject.
Captain Kennedy's picture of the awful effects of these
evictions was frightful to read. He had said enough to
show that a frightful amount of destitution had
been produced by these evictions. The treatment
of the poor man had really been most cruel. The ordi-
nary process of the law was not resorted to for the pur-
pose of ejecting him from his home, but his house was
pulled down in his own presence, and he was thrown
pennyless upon the world. Captain Kennedy's reports gave
frightfal details of these evils, and many (This &serif, Cons
reminded them of the history cf a savage race, rather
than an;:account of the sufferings of a civilized people.
The Honourable Member read several letters written
from gentlemen in Ireland, depicting the destitu-
tion and misery which resulted to the popula-
tion from the system of eviction, many of them
being wholly unable to obtain the means of subsistence,
and betaking themselves to the ditches to languish and
die. Those harrowing sights were most frequent in the
western unions of Ireland. The amount of relief af-
forded was insufficient to maintain existence; therefore,
he contended that it was not legal relief, or in accord-
ance with the requirements of the law. He then pro-
ceeded to bear testimony to the amount cf destitution
existing in the union of Kilrush. No country ravaged
by a hostile foe could be reduced to a more appalling
condition. If a hostile army had landed on the coast of
Clare, the Government would have spared no expense to
check its progress; but similar active steps had not been
taken to check the progress of famine and cholera, which
left desolate thousands of families. In such a manner,
then, had the relief been given to those poor creatures
during the last winter, and he would ask the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government who was responsible for
the refusal to give relief to the poor in that union? By
the English and Scotch Poor Law, those who adminis-
tered that law were held responsible for its proper admi-
nistration and answerable fur any deficiency in such ad-
ministration, and why should it not be so in Ireland? In
the Kilrush Union, during the years 1848 and 1849, the
rates had only been collected to the amount of 4s. or 4s. Gd.
in the pound, so that there seemed great neglect on the
part of the guardians in that respect; but supposing that
the local rates had been exhausted, was it not a case in
which Government ought to have come forward and not
allowed the poor of that union to starve? In 1846, the
then Secretary for Ireland, stated that the great object
the Government had in view, and one which it vas
bound to carry out, was to see that not a singe indi-
vidual should die of starvation in Ireland, and that sen-
timent was repeated by the Earl of Carlisle, in the House
of Lords, in introducing the Rate-in-Aid Bill to that
House; but he would take upon him to prove that since
that time thousands had died of starvation in Ireland,
and hundreds in the union to which he was alluding.
In 1837 there were two courses open for the Govern-
ment to pursue in affording relief to the Irish poor.
They could have either fully carried out the poor-law
they had established, enforced payments of the rates
made under that law, assessed rate after rate (in terms
of the suggestien of Sir Charles Trevellyan) on the
owners of land in Ireland, until they were either
compelled to pay or give up their places to those
who would, or they might have said to the dis-
tressed unions in Ireland, " You admit you are un-
able to fulfil the duties imposed upon you in respect
of the poor, and you ask us to aid you in doing so. We
will give you that aid, but we will give it you in such a
form that you will soon become self-supporting. We will
give it you in such a way as that it may be appropriated
in the improvement of your district at the same time that
it gives work and sustenance to your poor; but if you
refuse to take the money, and lay it out in that manner,
we will undertake your duties; we will employ the poor
with this money in the improvement of your estates,
whether you consent or not, and then charge your pro-
perty with the expenditure." That was the principle
laid down in respect of the relief granted to the High-
lands in 1846, and if the Government had acted on it in
this instance, or even if they had adopted the other al-
ternative, different and more favourable results would
have followed. But instead of doing either, they con-
tinued to dole out driblets of money from month to
month, barely sufficient to keep the people alive, while
they relieved the landlords and gave them an opportu-
nity to clear their estates of the poor who were resident
upon them. The proposal he now made was to appoint
a Commission to inquire into those matters he had alluded
to which, if appointed, would, he had no doubt, be the
means of suggesting the adoption of such steps as would
relieve the union he had alluded to from its present
frightful condition.
Mr. A. STAFFORD seconded the motion.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE said, in replying to the Hon-
Gentleman who had just sat down, it would not be pos-
sible for him to allude to every particular he had brought
forward. The Hon. Gentleman had had before him the
long correspondence which had taken place on this sub-
ject contained in the various blue-books, and had gone
into details on the different topics suggested by these, so
that it was impossible, not knowing the particular points
the Hon. Gentleman was to dilate upon, that he could
answer specifically every point to which he had alluded,
The correspondence contained in those blue-books
had been long under the consideration of the House, and
from it could be traced the unfortunate position in which
the Kilrush union was situated. No one could read
that correspondence without feelings of regret and pain,
while at the same time it must be clear to those who
studied it that the situation of that union before the
famine was not at all satisfactory, so that as an unavoid-
able consequence that famine fell with increased and
desperats severity on that union. What Government
had had to do during and since the famine, was to re-
lieve that distress so far as they were able. As to the
distress whioh prevailed, he knew nothing more pain-
ful than many of Captain Kennedy's reports, and he
might say,' in passing, that he thought the compliment
the Hon. Gentleman had paid to that gallant officer,
was well and fully merited.—(Hear, hear.) There
could, therefore, be no doubt that those reports were
painful, not only, however, as detailing the misery which
existed in the union, but also as detailing the low state
of morals among the people resident in the union; the
frauds they had recourse to for the purpose of extorting
relief, and many other matters which he thought unfit
to be recapitulated in that House. There were, therefore,
many elements at work, all tending to augment the dis-
tress; and prominent amongst these were the amount of
evictions which had taken place in the union; and it was
the ♦ery fact of those evictions taking place which in-
duced the Government in 1848 to pass the Act for the
protection and relief of the destitute poor evicted from
their dwellings in Ireland. The Hon. Gentleman was
therefore wrong, when he accused the Government of
doing nothing to shield the poor from the effects of those
evictions. That Act might have failed in accomplish-
ing all that it was desirable it should have done, but it
was adopted with the full intention of protecting the
poor, and to a considerable extent it did so. The Hon.
Gentleman had said those evictions were carried on
under the eye of the Government ; that Government
stood calmly by and saw them carried out, and the poor
driven helpless and huaseless upon the world, but the
Act ho had named refuted that statement; and he would
ask the House would it have been right or proper for the
Government to have stepped in, and prevented those
who owned the soil taking possession of it from those
who persisted in occupying it without paying any rent ?
—(Hear, hear.) Ho hoped ha would not give utterance
to a single word that would give the least encourage-
ment to such a system of evictions, but he thought it un-
fair on the Hon. Gentleman to charge the Government
with indifference in not stepping in and adopting mea-
sures, which he was sure the Hon. Gentleman himself
would not be prepared to sanction. As to what occur-
red in the Kilrush Union during the autumn of last;

year, the Poor-law Commissioners considered that
the elected board of guardians had not used the dili
genes they ought to have dope in the collection of
their rates, and they accordingly declined to afford
them Rey relief feeers the treasury. the:, hsd
&me so, he thought, from the g:encral tenour of the
I lonourahle entlemsn'i speech, that he would "nave
hr/n dissetisfied with their conduct, but in consequence
of t} lit r. fess!, tile re„peneibility we ti;roviet on the
elected hoard of guardians, and the first stop-nage of re-
lief detailed by the Hon. Gentleman had taken place;
as to the second stoppage of relief in January last, the
Poor-law Commissioners considered that the board of
guardians, in causing it, had been guilty of an error in
judgment rather than any desire on their part to deprive
the poor of relief, and they, therefore, did not think it
requisite to go to extreme measures with them. The
Hon. Gentleman had concluded by moving for the ap-
pointment ofa, special commission on the subject. Now,
he did not see to what practical benefit that would lead.
Its duties could not he confined to the Kilrush union
alone, but they must extend its operations to the other
distressed unions; and certainly when he considered the
numerous reports of commissions, and inspectors, and
boards of guardians, which had been laid upon the table
of the House in respect of the condition of those, be did
not think that much additional information could be got
by appointing such a commission as that moved for. It
would, in his opinion, give rise to hopes which never
could be realised, and do away with that feeling of
self-reliance among the people, without which they
could never expect to see them attain any thing like
prosperity. He would not say that any great ameliora-
tion in the condition of the Kilrush union bad taken
place, but this he would say, that the rates in that union
were now in steady course of collection; that the
guardians of the poor were fully alive to their duty, and
exerting themselves cordially and earnestly in the per-
firmance of it. The rate collected in the union for the
week ending the 291 i of December last amounted to
732 g., and had since been going on more or less increas-
ing. For the two months ending January last the
amount collected amounted to 4,656/., so that as far as
the collection of the rate was concerned matters were in
a satisfactory state, and there was, besides, no lack of
funds in the hands of the guardians for enabling them to
afford relief. There had been from time to time large ad-
vances made to the Kilrush union from the Treasury.
During the two years ending the 29th of September Ls',
23,0001. had been advanced to that union, and since the
29th September 5001. had been advanced to the union to
enable the guardians to erect an addition to the work-
house, which addition had been erected, and was capa-
ble of affording additional accommodation to 575 indi-
viduals, Independent of all this there was still admi-
nistered a large amount of out-door relief, for he found
that during the week ending the 23d of February last,
there were 12,470 persons on the out-door relief list.
In the whole of Ireland, on the 9th of February last
there were 140,000 individuals in the receipt of out
door relief; of these 15,000 belonged to the unions in
the province of Connaught, and 35 to the Kilrush union
and the other unions in Clare. So far, then, as rates
and workhouse accommodation was concerned maters
were satisfactory, as regarded the Kilrush union, while
at the same time there was an anxious desire evinced
on the part of the guardians to do their duty.
He 1 elieved no practical result would follow
if the motion were granted, and do not let
them adopt a course which may be of no pos-
sible advantage whatever. He could assure his
Hon. Friend that the Poor-law Commis:iuners had
been watching, and would watch, the proceedings of the
Kilrush union very cars fully, and the guardians who
administered its affairs. They had already au able or-
ficer on the spot in the person of Captain Kennedy, and
if they were able to discover that they did not do their
duty, such steps should be taken as the necessities of the
union demanded,

Mr. MONSELT., said that from the latest accounts he
had received the Kilrush union was getting), worse instead
of better, and unless the Government did' something at
once the state of the population will be dreadful indeed.
The assistant barrister of the court (Mr. Major,) in hold-
ing quarter sessions in Kilrusb, some few days since,
said that lie never witnessed such patiet.t agony of
sufferings, which were beyond human endurance. Did
his Right Honourable Friend the Chief Secretary for
Ireland, know that the poor in that union were often
compelled to come 16 and 20 miles for relief, and after-
wards allowed to go home without even having their
claims investigated or receiving a single meal? What
amelioration, therefore, can have occurred in the con-
dition of the people ? And if the union itself be in
a better state, or the peor-rates lower, it was bccame
the pee/:e perished from sheer starvatior. Surely if
such a syste m were to be carried on no poor-rate at
all would be necessary in a short time; but he appealed
to the House and to the Government, whether it was
right to improve the social condition of the people, or
of the union, over the graves of hundreds, and perhaps
thou: ands, of their fellow-creatures. lie, himself, had
been over the union, though not connected with it, and
so much human misery as he taw it was impossible to
conceive. For miles and miles nothing could be seen
but a dreary waste; nothing to be witnessed like farms
or farmers, and only a few patches here and there culti-
vated. Let not the House imagine that the people in
that locality were not good labauters, fur he had been
informed by Count Strelibekey that in the union of
Belmurry, which was. except Kilrush, the worst part of
Ireland, he had seen 350 men employed, under the in-
spection elan engineer from Plymouth, and anything like
the zeal and anxiety to perform their laborious dale a
was never witnessed. The gentleman under whom they
were employed informed the Count that, when he went
into the locality, such was the miserable condition of the
labouring poor that he had to feed these 350 men for a
fortnight before they were able to go to work. Since th, n
nothing could be more praiseworthy than their cot-
duct. He thought the ordinary operations of the law
ought to he suspended in that union, and the manage-
ment of it given to Mr. Twistleton, or Count Strelibekey,
and let them apply its resources to draining, emigratior,
or the cultivation of the laud, and charge that land
with the improvements so made, in order to give em-
ployment to the people. Something of that kind must
be done, or the whole population would be swept away.
An Honourable Friend of his, a Member of that House,
had been at Rattle!), and witnessed evictions, by one or
two individuals, of the most heart rending description.
A five days after being informed of what had occurred,
he (Mr. Monsen) visited the locality, and in a yard, not
half the size of the floor of that house, saw seven, eight,
and nine persons huddled in cabins, with no bed-clothes
to cover Item at night, having no bed to lie on but the
cold ground, and scarcely any clothing to cover them in
the day. Those poor creatures were exposed to such
an accumulation of misery that he solemnly declared he
thought one description sufficient to kill them. Fever
raged in one or two of those cabins or sheds, and altogether
it was impossible to witness without horror such a state of
suffering in a Christian laud. Surely neither the Govern-
ment nor the House would allow such a state of things to
go on; and most certainly if some person was not sent
down there, armed by law with abitrary and dictatorial
powers for a season, and apply the labour in the district
to the cultivation of the land, which was a perfect waste,
the most fearful consequences must ensue.—(Hear, hear)
By doing that all would be benefitted; they would not
have to be taxed in this country for advances made; the
land would be improved and the people saved from death.
He entreated the Government not to disregard the pro-
positions he bad suggested, and if a commission
were allowed to down there to collect informa-
tion, as proposed by the motion of the Honourable
Member for Stroud, it would not place the Govern-
ment in a worse position than it was at the pre-
sent moment. He believed the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, could not deny
that under the existing state of things in Kilrush thou-
sands of lives must be sacrificed if some remedy were not
proposed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that the Hon. Gentle-
man who had just sat down made a speech and de-
scribed scenes that occurred in Kilrush that did great
credit to his benevolent wishes to improve the condition
of the union; but when he (Lord J. Russell) considered
that the Hon. Gentleman proposed what Parliament and
she Government should do, he owned it appeared to him
to be, if possible, a plan which would make the evil
greater. What, in fact, he suggested, was this; that
th© people of Kilrush being in a miserable condi-
tion—that the landlords appearing to have grossly neg-
lected their ditties, in ejecting and evicting the wretched
tenants who had hitherto lived on means which no
longer existed—that farmers being there without skill or
capital to improve or cultivate the land, and were really
but "scratching" the ground, as the Hon. Gentleman
said, to secure a crop—that either through inability, or
the fault of the poor-law guardians, they cannot obtain
the smallest subsistence, and under these circumstances
he proposed a plan for an alteration in a condition of
things which ought not to be allowed to exist. What
be proposed, then, was, that the State should step in
and take the management of affairs into their bands
which was usually done by individuals; that in the
first place they should furnish all the necessary seeds for
sowing, and the agricultural implements to set the far-
mers to work; that they should advance the wages to
enable men to cultivate the land properly, and having
done all that, and gone to a vast expense, no doubt
with the immediate benefits of producing good crops,
and employing great numbers of the people, now living
in a miserable way, the proprietors should afterwards
come in, and enjoy the benefit of their lands, being im-
proved at such an expense, and the rents of persons,
who had so grossly neglected their duties, increased by
the state.
Mr. MONSELL begged to explain that his plan was
totally the reverse of what the Noble Lord stated. What
he suggested was, that fends should be raised from the
electoral divisions of the unions, and the amount ex-
pended on the land itself, so far as to give employment
to the people. If the rates so assessed wore not paid,
part of his suggestion was that the land should be sold.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL contended that that plan
would not meet the evil as the lion. Gentleman pro-
posed. At present, as the House was aware, it was one
of those unions where rates sufficient to meet the wants
of the people, or for their common sustenance, had not
been raised, and surely it was quite impossible that an
additional rate could be levied fur the purpose mentioned
by the Hon. Gentleman. It was, in fact, the state un-
dertaking to farm the land—to do that which private in-
dividuals ought to do—and thereby incurring an in-
creased responsibility, which no state ought to incur.
Ile (Lord John Russell) had seen very lately some
letters from a gentleman who travelled in the worst parts
of the west and south of Ireland, in which he stated that
a spirit and exertion were evinced, and a determination
to employ the people in the cultivating and sowing the
crops, highly encouraging, and which gave him very
great hope of the future improvement of the country.
It was also curious enough that he alluded in these
letters to a statement of his (Lord Juhu Russsell'e) in
that House, in which ho alleged that many parts of Ire-
land were rapidly improving, a statement which he says
be deemed exaggerated when he read it, but was now
convinced, from what passed under his own eye, that it
was just and accurate. But if that House were to say,
here was a union in which persons grossly neglected to

pe -wen their duties ; that union, however, shall haie
s pe
pecial fund, and the state shall undertake to irepht
the farms, would they not say in other unions that it
110 LlNt` toe them to exert themselves when those o
wt
eoelected t'air elutits were much better treated by e
tat,.—(llear, hear.) The plan propc,sed by
(;+.nth-m,ol n ay have a good eff,ct at present—it
allay wretcher 'less and misery for some mouths, but it
in the it,iliction of more serious
''',jurY, not only to Kilrush, but other distressed
the Hon.
unions in Ireland. who would expect to ba treated
in a similar manner. He regretted deeply them isery
and wretchedness which existed ; but he must say,
what he was obliged to repeat, that there were cer
t ,in exertions and certain duties to he performed
hieh ought not end cannot be left to any Legislature
or :my Government, duties of landlords and tenants one
to another, and both to the labourers by whom they
should be employed; and if these are not sufficient)Y
performed, no Legislature nor Government can perform
them. There was. however, a change now going °n
under the operation of the Encumbered Estates Act'
pa,seci last session, which, if extended to the Nilrush
union, and if it so happened that estates in that district
could be sold under it, he believed, considering that tl
superabundant population did not exist there, that es"
pi tnlists would find labourers quite ready to give their
best exertions for nothing more than a fair and mode'
rate remuneration. He believed that that Act wen,
make a great change in the social condition of Irelenuj
but he did not think that such a remedy as that proposai
by the Honourable Member for the county
that the lands in the union of Kilrush hoo'?
' be cultivated at the expense of the state, woulZ
do nothing more than set a very bad example, and etA.
feted a mischievous precedent hereafter, which, lust"'
of improving, would make things much worse in various
parts of Ireland.
Mr. HORSMAN being alluded to by his Hon. Friend
the Member for the county of Limerick, would sal a
few words. It was certainly his misfortune to be
present at certain scenes in Kilrusb, and he verily be
li( ved, that if they travelled Europe they would on
ort
find such a concentration of misery as he witnessed
Limerick:
that occasion. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Score'
tary of State for Ireland said that one-fourth of the
money advanced to the distressed unions in Ireland wet
given to Clare, and was not that a sufficient proof c).!
the ex'ent of misery which existed. The Noble Ler°
ea the head of the Government observed, that if tbeY
acceded to the proposition of his Hon. Friend, the state
would Le taking that upon itself which properif,hl;
longed to individuals. But were they not doiog
every day, by aivancing money to the distressed oein-et°
and even to Kilrush at that very moment? VihYsf7o-ril
then, step oat of the ordinary course, us",, The
relief to this distressed part of the countrY •it
High t Hon. Gentleman said they would be in life
with the rights of property; but was not huree°,4la-
of more value? And if they went back to first
oruve.
cipleF, was human life to he sacrificed
to protect property? His Hon. Friend proposed to Pine,
the union in a state of commission, that inasmuch este' to
landlords had grossly reflected their duty, rb, e skor
ought to step in and save the lives of the peoPir,l 4.. the
his own part he believed f-om the beginning toll-1,0
motion could not be acceded to by the Governraee',A,..
believed his Hon. Friend's purpose was to raise state`"
cusoion, but something should be done to remove 00
of things which was a reproach to that House and 1°

country.
Mr HUME agreed in the general principles laid OW:I
by the Noble Lord, but was it not worth their wbile' --
money was already advanced, to obtain the fullest inforavi
ation as to why so much distress prevailed in that eni°llls
His Hon. Friend said that so much distress did not.el"
in the civilized world, and ought they not, as credi°r!ii
i
to have an examination made en the spot, to ascertan r
the landlords were in such a condition as to givesb‘°„ild.
to the people, and if not, that the lands should be
That Ire considered was a legitimate course to be ter
for when information was obtained, the Governleeu
ge
would be in the same condition as they now were. 66..
therefore hoped the Noble Lord at the head of thf
vernment would grant the commission prayed for by
mr tion of his Hon. Friend.
Colonel DUNNE belived that no one in the 11°1
would refuse the commission, if they hoped er beljecifi
it would do any good. But what was its object? the
tvhe first place, to obtain facts. He submitted that, -0
House was already in possession of sufficient facts ',,ta°ol
the report of the board of guardians and of the g' -be
jury, and that no commission whatever could add to tof
information of the House. As to the present eteite;,,s.
the union, the second object was to devise reelet';,;ig
They laud already had many remedies devised whi,cl3„;tett,
net been acted upon, and others which had 112"
most injuriously. Oneof these remedies to oto
the management of the poor out of the hands el 0.
landlords, and to put it in the hands of paid failedgur
This bad been the case in liilrush itself, and hau de,
to do any good. One proposition which had been 111:105
by an Hon. Member he altogether dissented from'
ad'
of confiscating the property of the landlords. The 4:1o.
lords of Ireland bad no more right to have tbeiArirras
perty taken from them in that way than the lon'(:
of this country. Nor were they, as a body, the catt-elf
our •
that pauperism which it was proposed to saddle
upon them, even to their ruin.
Lord NAAS concurred in much that had fallen 641:
that tPre'e
the Noble Lord, but, at the same time, seeing
in orde.o.
were not called upon to institute an expensive and '18„-9-0
system of relief, but merely to inquire into the °to
which had produced such gigantic misery,
devise means for it; removal, he did not feel hinaselhfi r )
titled in voting against such a motion.—(Hear' -,westi
Had the Noble Lord held out any hope of tnetolir",,- fors
relief from outer sources to that union or elservbfr7lsge
the spring advanced, he should not have voted

motijr.
Lord J. RUSSELL—I did mention various o°liretti
from whence relief might be hoped for. • Pit
Lord NAAS bad understood the Noble Lord slots
to look for this relief from the operation of thee 7,00
which had been recently passed, and not from any 1.„10- ass
or direct intervention on behalf of the suffering ti" %:011
and despairing of these producing such an atneliorro
of the existing distress as was imperatively requLre,r,)
should feel it his duty to support the motion.--(nes bra
Sir G. GREY said the Noble Lord opposite ba9c sing
support of the motion entirely on his despair of teeffio
the Government produce any particuiar and sPeke&
measure for the relief of the Kilrush union. Ile °sat
if that was a reasonable ground on which to SuPP:,-iyer
measure which he himself believed would be de'tif."-tbs
because it would raise expectations on the part %jell
people who were now sunk in the deepest miser,' a.
could not be fulfilled, and therefore would be colt to
gravating the evil they all deplored. With reset Was
the motion of the Hon. Member for Stroud, "
brought forward on two grounds, first, in order to es,
lect information; and second, to devise remedies; hoe
would ask if it was possible that the House could 4100
more explicit information or fuller details than
which were already before the House from various clttii,-tt
ters; and if any further information was roaairecolas
was not necessary to appoint a special Government JO,
mission to procure it.—(Hear, hear.) As to reale for
they had in the House the Honourable Meteb„eret
Limerick, who was well acquainted with that ,PLisen-
the country, and the Honourable Member for ux—, lei
mouth, who had been an eye-witness of the se'lirvea
which existed in it. He would say that any Biggs-Ole'
as to remedies that might be made by these lionenropts
Gentlemen would be much more valuable than the ivto
nions of a Commissioner sent down to inquirelsord
these matters by the Government. But the Noble fiend
said he should support the motion, as his Nolel! fosa-
(Lord John Russell) had not promised any sPee'a. -toe.*
sure for the Kilrush union. True, no such tness sad
were contemplated, but his Noble Friend thong" 'frogs
he thought, that there was ample ground for hePelesecls
the operation of the measures they had already pt 60,3
and which were calculated to extend emploYmelf, bad.
prosperity throughout the whole of the country.
overtf
been generally agreed that one great cause of the P noes'
and want of employment, was to be found in the PThiol
sion of the land by owners who were unable to salerovt,
those who live upon it, and were surrounded by Pemedl
ary difficulties; and further, that the only way t° leisetior.
that was, by selling the land free from these 1-0 who
brances, and letting it pass into the hands of tb°sepitst
had capital, and who were willing to employ tbst oder
in the improvement and cultivation of the soil. _d tae
that opinion the Government had proposed, ia
Parliament had passed the Encumbered Estate: '72, tbe
order to effect a legal release of estates it°o
possession of those who had neither the esPi nsfer
perhaps, the will to employ labour, and theirttvirtio sn
to those who had botb.—(Hear, hear.) l'Pe to ellir
important measute, and should be allowed tig°f;tose
rate before any premature judgment as tt?riht: roost in
fluence on the country was arrived at. A",:rit waneui,f
portant and essential measure of irnprove°l`; (lo Zs
labour should be employed, and it ought te 003 of
voluntary agency, not by the direct interfere° gerleet
Government.—(Hear, hear.) But the 11°,°0•0•0.40
for Montrose appeared to wish that thee, jyaose -
should step in and confiscate the property
had not paid the poor-rates. giant
Mr. HUME—No. LO.
Sir. G. GREY—WeII, then, the Hon. Itsfeeiretroh4
what he (Sir G. Grey) meant, that by the °Pessold be
5
the Encumbered Estates Act those propertle WI 6
gradually transferred to new proprietors, who
th°t,sesi
means of employing labour, and setting 011.tv of t,.1".
improvements on which the real presiVin'oped to;
country must depend.—(Hear, hear.) suPP
Noble Lord opposite would not be induced t° etthe
the motion by any idea that the Governneen,t e":tssted, 0r
indifferent to the amount of distress whie"
hirther in
that they were not going to propose anY
could 650-
ge
sal,o into
sures when these might be required.
him that such was not the case. And he mu error i°"ig
the liberty to correct what he considerei ened to ti,t3s
which the Noble Lord had fallen. He seeeLere to° if
that the resources of the Kilrush units? '`,..otf but lf
exhausted. That did not appear to be th 'm
1.• eoperAti°ll
it were, the estates would come tinder toe effect a
the Encumbered Estates Act, and would thus
„a se be
alteration for the better. tion, ° Go'
Mr. H. HERBERT supported the me
_t of the
t0.,°°041
thought there was a disposition on the par
had
vernment to underrate the difficulties
tend with in Ireland. This was CO dout ThY(l3in
Nonou'r.tre
on their part, but it was not less true.
monger, but t
intenuanbio
Baronet opposite was a great proports,,; from improvtild
were districts in Ireland which, 6 f
were growing worse. There were
so far received no relief, but the r
.a next )0.
districtse s
o u r
e e 9 wohf
which
were so much diminished that before_ t.hat
.ireiliet of bitioXli
they would, unless assisted, be ound t
rupt unions. Among stiese
called attention last seas
the
of List ore!, to which ho had
ha might mention the ITton.
Ho quits understood the (eliafficulltiyeesd
vgtalit fwthhiee P:tcor;
Noble Lord ha to deal, but he be le
the distil
did now. In well se
law was left to epe7ate, a' i" he vats . 0„
ag
Listowel and Clonturk, with w
the saw° tend few
quaintel, it would reduce them to
wished fer °cad
Kilrush. While on this subject he
letter he had re:e7 for
moments to draw attention to a ". SeTO
contradicting the statements of the KAv