The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

Lord ,NTIARNCLIFFE—Oh, dear! Now, go on.
The Marquis of NORMANIIY—" The first detachment
under the Rev. Dean having halted, express( d their thanks
in warm terms to that gentleman, gave three hearty
cheers for him, and then, deploying round, took up the position
assigned to them." Now he asked Noble Lords was not this
military array ? Was it not the chnrch militant in a most dis-
creditable position, and did the Government prosecute Mr.
Waring ?—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the
ts'cretary for
Ireland, at.. the time of his election, had repeated the declara-
tions of Sir Robert Peel on assuming the reins of Government
—that the policy of the Government in respect to
Ireland should be of a generous andconciliator • cha-
racter. This promise was made in 1841
and the only
generous Bill whit li had been passed was t'he Arms' gill.—
( Laughter.) With reference to that Bill, he thought what
had occurred was calculated to revive the apprehensions which
were originally entertained as to the manner in which it would
be executed.—( Hear, hear.) But for the presence of Mr.
Gore Jones, a stipendiary magi trate, the magistrates would
have done what the Government which brought in the Bill
declared was never intended.—( Hear, hear. ) Now, having
given this notice of motion, he might be expected to say a few
words on some of the topics which had been opened in the petition
presented by his Noble Friend, signed by a considerable num-
ber of the respectable Roman Catholics and Protestants of Ire-
land. lie could not avoid saying that he considered that the
present state of the Irish Church required further inquiry, and
that, always taking it as the first object, that that Church
should be adequate to the wants of the Protestants of Ireland,
the whole question should be open for the consideration of Par-
liament. He thought it very desirable that any distinctions
which existed between the two religions should be done away ;
and he considered it necessary for the tranquillity of Ireland
that the Catholic religion should be placed on a footing of
equality with the Protestant. In almost every country where
there was a mixed population, consisting of Catholics and Pro-
testants, the religions of the two classes were placed on equal
footing-7( Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt said, at the time of
the Union, that it was not easy to say, on general prin-
ciples, what system of church establishment would be
free from difficulty. By many it was considered that the re•
ligion of the majority should he placed on an equal footing with
that of the minority, but those who applied that principle with-
out qualification forgot the relation between English and Irish
interests. Whilst Ireland remained a separate kingdom, said
Mr. Pitt, full concessions could not be made to the Catholics
without endangering the stability of the Constitution itself.
These words were perfectly consistent with the article of the
Union, which maintained that the Established Church in Ire-
land should be united to the Established Church in England,
but used the remarkable phrase—" in like manner as the
Church of Scotland." He also referred to the circumstance
that it had been said that the establishment of Presbytery in
Scotland was a most impolitic as well as wicked thing.
There was much in all this that called for their serious atten-
tion. With respect to the payment of the Catholic clergy,
without giving any opinion upon that point, he thought that
the present was a most unfortunate moment for such a proposi-
tion to be brought forward. lie was borne out in this opinion
by the language used by Mr. Grattan at the time of the Union.
He said that the Government of that day was ready to pay the
clergy, if they added treason to the people to their subser
viency to a Court. But if the clergy were to be paid, it must
be by salaries, not by bribes ; they must be paid an income
for the performance of religious duties, not a bribe for political
apestacy. Without saying that he did not lament their having
taken such an active part in the agitation, he thought there
was much reason for seeing the principle of Mr. Grattan ap-
plied. But lie could not mention that body, which had been so
much abused, without rendering to them his tribute of praise
for the activity and zeal with n hich they had always assisted
him in preserving the peace and detecting offences.—( Hear,
hear. ) It was common to attribute much of the misfortune
and crimes of Ireland to the religion of the people of that coun-
try ; but he thought the misfortunes of the Irish people
arose much more from their relations a ith man
than from their relations with their Maker. In no country in
the world, in spite of all their privations and sufferings, was
there a people among whom the domestic virtues were
more universally precinct!. No, it was the great struggle
for existence, which their legislation had not secured for them,
from which all tiler misery arose. With respect to the ques
tion of the Irish franchise, the declaration lately made by the
Government was certainly a most welcome inconsistency, after
the declarations that had fallen from that party. The number
of electors in England and Scotland was 850,000 ; in Ireland
it was 150,000, in a population of 8,000,000. If they
took the numbers of the Members with respect to the
population, the disproportien was the same. ( Hear. )
One of the complaints of the Irish people was, that their inte-
rests were neglected and the resources of their country not
developed, and that the natural tendency of having the Parliament
sitting in Westminster was to promote absenteeism. Those
were matters which demanded further consideration. They
embodied the complaints of a large portion of the Irish people,
who were not prepared to advocate repeal. The number of
Members ought certainly to be increased, and the fran-
chise extended, so as to put Ireland upon a perfect
equality with England as respected representation. The
other night lie had adverted in a few words to the
Landlord and Tenant Commission. He regretted that
something more satisfactory had not been elicited by
some of his Noble Friend's remarks on the subject.
However, there could be no doubt that the relation
of landlord and tenant in Ireland called for some amelioration.
It was notorious in the constitution of society in Ireland
that the landlord had a monopoly of the means of existence—
that lie had the means of enforcing his bargains which did not
exist elsewhere. He did not recommend " fixity of tenure"
as the mode of adjusting the question, but he thought that in
the course of the inquiry the Government must ascertain what
was the most advisable regulation to adopt; the proportion
which rent bore to produce in Ireland was that in a farm
where produce was 1501. the share of the landlord in point of
rent was 100/., whereas in England out of 300/. as produce,
the landlord received for rent 1001. That account was taken
from a very able and compendious statement drawn up by Mr.
Wiggins, who had beer. appointed to inquire and report upon
the subject. With respect to the commission of crime
in Ireland, he thought that the time hail passed
by when certain specific crimes committed against
landlords, instead of being attributed to the depravity of
as they should be, were attributed to the religion of
the people. A gentleman, writing on the occasion of the late
Finnoe tragedy, had stated that there should not have been
Catholic policemen, and that that outrage was a part of a re.
ligious persecution. Now he (the Marquis of Normanby) was
happy to state, what was fortunately the case, viz., that the in-
divieival who had so distinguished himself in defence of his
master on that occasion was a Roman Catholic. Re would
wish to impress upon their Lordships the idea that the situa-
tion of that country, in respect to the spread of civilisation, was
not so different from that of this country, because there civilisa-
tion and education were making rapid strides, and in consequence
a right thinking spirit of public opinion was being created, and
this feeling was not alone confined to Great Britain, but had also
extended to Europe generally, the people of which, through the
medium of the press, were closely observing the conduct of this
country towards Ireland. It was true, that he might be car-
ried away in expressing his opinions by his partiality towards
Ireland, and might be induced to speak more strongly of the
wants and grievances of that country; but still he could calmly
say, that any one who (independent of political considerations)
looked at the history of that country, must acknowledge that
the misery of the country was solely to be attributed to the
misrule to which it had been subjected. If their Lord-
ships were prepared to go on governing through the me-
dium of a minority of the people of Ireland, and
to abide by the result of partial administration of justice, when
a prosecution was before the Courts, which vitally affected the
interests of the country, and on that occasion excluded from
the jury all thole belonging to the faith professed by the great
body of the people—if they were inclined to exhibit to the
nations of the earth the extraordinary spectacle of the
finest country—and the most peaceable at present—in a state
of military occupation, they would pursue the course which
had been followed through centuries of misgovernment, and
reject all inquiry ; but if they chose to win the feelings and
affections of a loyal and brave people, and to give stability to
the empire, and security to the throne, they sh -sold redress the
grievances of that long oppressed country. The Noble Mar-
quis concluded by moving, " that this House, having in answer
to her Majesty's most gracious speech, assured her Majesty
that they entered into her Majesty's feelings, in forbearing
from observations on events in Ireland, in respect to which
proceedings are pending before the proper legal tribunals, feel it
in consequence, to be their duty to take the earliest oppor-
tunity, when no prejudice can arise therefrom in the minds
of the jury, to record their intention to examine into the causes
of the discontent now unhappily too prevalent in that country :
also, that with a view to the removal of existing evils, anti the
restoration of confidence, this House look to the development
of the only true principles of a perfect union, by securing to her
Majesty's subjects, of all classes and persuasions, in all parts of
the United Kingdom, the practical enjoyment of equal rights."
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said that when his Noble Friend
yesterday placed on the table of their Lordships' House, the
resolutions he intended to submit to their consideration, he
confessed he did not understand them, because it did not ap-
pear that there was any precise mark or object attempted in
them. He at once understood the course which was being
taken in the other House by moving for a Committee of the
whole House, in which, if obtained, resolutions would be intro-
duced by the Noble Lord who moved for that Committee,
charging himself and friends on the present Government with
the commission of high and grave offences. There was no-
thing, however, of such intention in the resolutions of the
Noble Marquis ; but. what was wanting in (hie respect in the
resolutions was amply made up by the speech which intro-
duced them.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis undoubtedly
had made very serious charges against the Government in his
speech. Well, lie ( Lord 'Wharncliffe) was quite ready
to meet them.—(Cheers. ) His charges were distinctly
math —he would meet him distinctly upon them. He
would endeavour, first, to meet his charges in respect
to that agitation which led at last to a conviction, in the
mind of every dispassionate person, that a conspiracy of a most
dangerous anti illegal character, existed in Ireland. The Noble
Lord said that in dealing with this agitation, and with this eon-
spirasy, they had pursued a wrong course from the beginning.
He said there were two courses open to the Government. One
of these was to allow (as the Government had done, and
wrongly done, as the Noble Marquis argued) the meetings to
be held, and let them wear themselves out ; the other was to
take instant anti determined measures at once to put an end
to them ; that they adopted a course at first which at last they
abandoned without reason. Now he (Lord 'Wharncliffe) would
prove the Noble Marquis to be wrong in both his positions.—
( Hear, hear.) He begged to inform him that the Government
never did suppose, even for one instant, that, by allowing these
meetings to go on, they would wear themselves out. They
saw from the first that there was danger to the
peace of the country from these meetings. 'they !hough,
then, as they thought now, that the bringing of
great bodies of people together, and the trying to
force these people on by exciting speeches to a particular line
of conduct was as illegal as it was dangerous.—(Cheers). They
prepared to stop this agitation and suppress these meetings,
but they did so warily and cautiously—perhaps waiting for a
good oppostunity when their determination could successfully
be put in force.—(Hear, hear. ) The question was to prove
to the satisfaction of a Court and jury, anti to the satisfaction
of the reasonable and reflecting portion of the community, that
these meetings were illegal, anti that they ought to lie sup-
pressed. The difficulty was to provide the proof that the
meetings were for an illegal purpose. Ile quite agreed with
the Noble ftlarquis, that to seek for a repeal of the union was
not illegal in itself—to seek for that was clearly every man's
right who might desire the change ; but the offence lucre was
for seeking that legal object by means which most indubitably
were of an illegal character.—(Cheers. ) The Government
had been reproached on all sides by its friends for not sooner
acting. They had been called a do•nothing Cove' iimee.it for
allowing the organisation to proceed to the length which it
did before they interfered—but they had only waited until they
could effectually act. Their opponents, on the other hand,.et
said, now that they had interfered, 's Oh, you should hoanven
the meetings wear themselves out." And had thhemy.efces
and the meetings had still gone on (for wear
,tnte,
knew it 1,
nut
they would not have dune, and well their ri
and to taunt them for doing so.
lie
takesa such time, and adopt
then these very persons would have been
before they did anything else,
was
sutcocess at a blow, which they
'eth'brnbtrhsteirtobutnieasist.l
such measures. as would ensure success
'aye to this agitation. But
had from the first determined.
abovethe Noble Lord planed
i'
all for their conduct at
themClontarf, It'by he did nut mbelieve the Noble Marquis knew
what he svgs talking about when he •
at that very time an-
;,
tarf meeting was to be the last. li sail
that this Choi-
angement s had been made f.ir tootling six or severs more such
meetings. Now let, it be recollected that, although at Tai a
and Mullaghmast there had been proceedings of a most
unjustifiable character, that those derigntd to be caaettd