The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-02 00:00:00

;land the rainimurn rating was 201. to 251., but by
the present Bill the maximum riving was not so high.
Two-thirJs of the votes would therefore be rated at a
lower qullificati,in than the minimum amount of qua-
lifiation in England. As tW.)4hirdi i,f the number
would be rated below 101, the whole influent-,
would leo plati-d in one scale, and numbers would
hive an overwhelming preponile:enco over property, so
that person; who were rated a: the fall amount of their
rent, who had no interest in the duration of their tenure,
and who had no profit over their rent, would have Vie
full control of the county constituency of Ireland. Let
them hut grant the low amount of qualification they ap-
peared disposed to grant, and if they found they had
allowed dangerous influences L..) predominate they would
discover they could not retract, that they were bound
fir ever to the principle, and that the democratic power
which would then be wielded by the mass would be found
to operate injuriously on the constituency at large, and
would be made the lever wherewith to accelerate she
same claims in England. If the Bill passed, the power
that would be created by it would soon prove irresis-
tible, and it would go on rapidly towards that stets of
things which would m ike the maintenance of the con-
stitution of the country impossible.--(Hear.) In adopt-
ing the 151. franchise,for Ireland, it could not be said
that it would be analogous to the 501. franchise in
England, or that you would get the same intelli-
gence or re'p'ctahility among the lowest class
of voters in Ireland as you would in England.
The 151. qualification was even lower than he should
have chosen, but looking to the necessity for extending
the franchise in Ireland, and being assured by Noble
Lords that it would not be unsafe, he was willing to
waive his objections and to take that amount which gave
an average basis of 5 600 for each county; bat lower he
would not give his consent to, for if they had a lower
qualification, ho was certain they would have a consti-
tuency but little qualified by intelligence, st. Von, and
property to exercise that important trust which, when
reposed iu individuals, they were bound to exercise in-
dependently and for the general hmefit.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of SIIREWSBULiY was in favour of Pro-
tectionist principles. It the small shopkeeper and tenant
were represent,d, he was satittlei they would much
rather give their adhesion to Protectionist principles
than to that sco2ics of Communism which was being
diffused.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE, who spoke with his hack
turned to the reporters' gallery. was nearly inaudible.
The Noble Lord w't understood to object to Lord Stan-
explana,tien of the basis of the county qualification
in England.
Lord STANLEY explained that in England profit
over rent was taken into consideration, but in the pre-
sent Bill profit was not at all considered.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE proceeded to show by figures
that the proposed 151. franchise would not give the ex-
tent of constituency supposed by the Noble Lord, or if
it did that it would not he large eaongh. He was willing
to enlaree the Irish coisetituericy to the extent proposed
by the Noble Earl provided it could be done safely. He
was satisfied it would be very dengercus to leave mat-
ters iu their present state, as he apprehended a greater
amount of mischief from standing still than was likely
to occur in their forward direction proposed by the
present Bill. Ile thought it was possible to modify the
Bill so es to race: all obiec!ions, and at the seine time to
afford all the benefit to Ireland which an enlarged con-
stituency could produce.
The Elul of MOUNTCASHELL thought the mode
of ascertaining the numbers of those fitted for the exer-
cise of the franchise was very defective. I better
means of determining the numbers had been at the corn-
' mend of their Lordships, that circumstance would have
assisted them greatly in arriving at a proper judgment
on this important question. Unfortunately the numbers
returned were the number of those registered, whereas
had the return been of the numbers of those only who
were qualified to register, ho was of opinion a very dif-
ferent aspect would have been given to this part of the
question. Ho was opposed to revolution and anarchy,
and for this reason he was anxious to see a high quell&
cation, rather then the low qualification proposed by the
present Bill.
Lercl
a portion ll U FFEn
of
IN
evidencesaid heas wag
to i
then a
position
a con-
tributetowhon
it was sought to confer the franchise. He considered
the late revolutions on the continent owed their rise to
people o
a restricted franchise. In his experience of Ireland the
coincide; there were only 3'2,000 electors to 8,000,000 of
two qualifications of property and intelligence did not
inhabitants, or tvvo.fit'ths of a respectable population to
every 10) persons. He, tiler( fore, felt great pleasure in
supporting the Bill.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he and his
Friend had adjoinicg estates, and ho was therefore sur-
prised at the very opposite views his Noble Friend took
of the question.—(Laughter.) The 81. franchise would
open a door for the domination of the Catholic priest-
hood in the south of Ireland and the Presbyterian cler-
gymen in the north. The higher the franchise the more
respectable would be the voters, and the mare thoroughly
would be taken from the priests and Presbyterian mi-
nisters the power they now wielded. The Bill as it now
stood would destroy the influence of the landlords in
Ireland. He should, therefore, give his vote heartily for
the 151. franchise, regretting only that it was not higher.
The Bishop of DOWN was sorry to hear the Noble
Mervis give such a bad account of the tenantry on his
own property. The estates of the Noble Marquis con-
tained 12,000 rated tenements, of which 9,000 were
rated at 81.
The Earl of CARLISLE said the House of Commons
were not unanimous in voting even Si., for there were
some amendments proposing 6/. and 4/. He did not ad-
vocate that reduction, but still ho hoped that their Lord-
ships would not adopt a higher sum thee that inserted
in the Bill. The entire of the elective body in Ireland
did not amount to 35,000, whereas in England one county
only bad as many as 55,000. In England the proportion
of the voters to the adult population was 29 per cent.; in
Ireland, however, though the rated tenements under the
Si. rating were 264,000, it gave only 15 per cent. as the
proportion to the adult population, while a 121. rating
would give only 10 per cent., and a 151. rating only 8
per cent. He admitted that there was no extraordinary
excitement on the question in Ireland; but that, in his
opinion, was only a reason the more fur doing the Irish
people justice in the matter.
Lord BROUGHAM could not give his consent to the
proposition of an Sl. franchise for Ireland. He never
could lose sight of what, in his opinion, should be the
governing principle of the franchise—namely, that no
change should take place without its effect upon the
House of Commons being duly weighed. If the 81.
qualification was considered with that view, he feared
that the constitution a that body would be greatly and
grievously deteriorated. Iu considering that question
they should look to the south of Ireland as well as to
the north. A large portion of the people of the north
of Ireland posse,sed a degree of virtue, knowledge, and
respectability, which might be held fairly to qualify
them for the ele save franchise; but could it be said that
the same advantages were enjoyed by the paupers of
the southern porton of that country ?—(llear, hear )
They had heard a good deal of the comparison between
the number of electors and the number of the popu-
lation in England and in Ireland. But they should
also bear in mind of what the population in each
country was composed. It had been said that
in England 1 in every 23 inhabitants was au elector,
and that in Ireland 1 elector in every 41 inhabitants
would be too small a proportion. Let them,
however, not forget how many paupers there were in
Ireland. It appeared from the latest returns that
there were in that country 2,300,000 persons receiving
parish relief. Now, that made ono in every three of the
population. while in England there was but one in every
20 or 21 of the population receiving that relief. He be-
lieved that both in the north and in the south of Ireland
a large portion of the people disliked to have their names
placed on the register. He understood that in the north
the Presbyterian clergymen exercised a very great con-
fro' over the acts of the electors, and many persons
wished to escape from that control by not qualifying
themselves to vote. But if that was the case in the north
of Irel.nd, how much more must a similar feeling pre-
vail in the south, where the Roman Catholic clergy
exercised. as he believed, a more complete dominion
over the Roman Catholic electors than was exercised
over their fellow-creatures by any other class of men.—
( lleer, bear.) The Right Rev. Prelate bad said that
many people did not register of their own accord either
in Ireland or in England. Now ho (Lord Brougham)
would venture to say that there was hardly such a thing
in this country as a qualified person refusing to re-
gister. But in Ireland many such cases undoubtedly
occurred. lie could not, however, approve of the prin-
ciple of a compulsory registration, although ho had no
objection to lower the franchise. He recollected that a
certain Irish Secretary in bringing in a Registration Bill
on a former occasion had fixed the qualification not at Si.,
or at 121., or at 15/., but at 30L; and that Irish Secretary
was no other than his Noble Friend opposite (the Earl
of Carlisle), a Cabinet Minister, and one of the principal
supporters of the measure then under their Lordships'
consideration. Now he (Lord Brougham) would take
what he considered a not unreasonable medium between
au 8/. and a 30/. qualification, and would give his vote in
favour of the propoz4al for fixing the qualification at 151.
They had read in the First Leeson yesterday, that Saul,
when he was about to be dethroned, repented in sack-
cloth and ashes, and it would appear that her Majesty's
Ministers sought to effect some change in the Irish
franchise at a time when their tenure of office had be-
come somewhat insecure. Now he had always thought
that one great change might be very beneficially intro-
duced into the Reform Bill by extending the franchise
to ono of the most respectable and one of the most
ingenious classes of our fellow-subjects—he meant
the artisans of this country, not the day labourers,
but the hard-working and hard-handed artisans. He
believed that those men were far more independent
then nine-tenths of the present electoral body; he be-
lieved they were far more independent than the 10/.
voters—than the shopkeepers or the capitalocracy of
this country. These men did not want the protection of
the ballot, for they wished to come manfully forward
and to vote in the face of day, according to their con-
sciences. He had the greatest love for those gentlemen
who came over from Ireland to occupy places in the other
House; they might be most open-hearted and fascinating
in their manners, but he confessed he did not desiderate
a very great increase in the numbers of that body which
some time ago held seats in the other House, and which
would
The
theyb
Earl thev, eorCfeasseT. now a
if theyb
GERMANS,
ute createdestablishing.—(Laughter.)
b 8 i
shuiennhg
explanation,
bad(L rga hntcehr s)
said
ds
that
hwahle ninhteenhdaedd pthroaptoirfsho
lfsruapnecrhai
ds
de e for Ireland,
Itirleelaonldd,onhee.
The Noble Earl atild ho new
was proceeding to address the House in
explanation of his views, when
The Eli-
. lof MOUNTC ASHELL (as was understood)
rose to call the Ni hie Earl to order.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said a Noble Lord
could address the House in Committee as often as he
pleased —(hear.)
The Earl of ST. GERMANS then proceeded to say
that the reason why the priests in Ireland exercised such
'an influence over the people Was because they were.