The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-25 00:00:00

LONDON,

T

TUESDAY

reigner'e Government, that they would be justified in pro-
claiming war against this country? He believed not. On
the whole, he believed, that the case of the Pacifico
required calm consideration and due inquiry, and he felt
assured that the result would be t hat there was a very great
exaggeration of the claim of this man. He contended that
the interference of France was perfectly justifiable under all
the circumstances that he had already stated, as well as with
respect to the capture Of the six lonian boats at the custom-
house of Salcjna. He did not mean to trespass on the
House much longer, and for that reason had confined himself
to the three claims which were ordered to be enforced by the
British squadron. He should say that the claims of the two
persons, Finlay and Pacifico, were without any foundation,
and thus the cool and firm answer of M. Londos to Mr.
Wyse. Nothing in his (Sir F. Thesiger's) opinion could be
more calm or more dignified. And how was it answered by
the British Government? By an overwhelming armed force,
which was sent against a friendly Government, and against
whose commerce a heavy blow was dealt, and yes-
eels were seized of the value of 17,000!., in satis-
faction of the claims of M. Pacifico, amounting in the most
to 7,oool.—(Hear, hear.) Looking at the whole of the cir-
cumstances in those proceedings, he would ask the House
whether they were prepared to vote for the motion of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield?—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition.) He would now refer the attention of the House to
the policy of the Noble 'Lord at the head of foreign affairs,
and ask the House if that policy was the policy of peace ?
(Hear, hear.) There were two small islands, Cerra and Sa-
pienza, about which the question had been raised, as to whe-
ther they rightfully belonged to, and should be considered
as part of, the dominions of Greece, or ought to go with the
seven islands which were in possession of Great Britain. A
correspondence took place on the subject, and the Noble Lord
sent instructions to Admiral Parker to proceed with an over-
whelming armed force and seize those islands. That proceeding
led to the interference of Russia, and to a correspondence be-
tween the Noble Lord and Count Nesselrode, which assumed
a rather serious aspect, and led to the withdrawal of the
Noble Lord's demand.—(Hear, hear from the Opposition.)
The lion. and Learned Gentleman then directed the atten-
tion of the House to the negotiations which commenced on
the subject of the claims of M. Pacifico and others on the
Greek Government, and the offer of friendly mediation on
the part of France, and acceptance by the British Govern-
ment of such mediation. He then passed to the arrival at
Athens of Baron Gros, as representative of the French Go-
vernment, the interviews between him and Mr.' Wyse, the
British Minister at the Court of Athens, and of all those
subsequent proceedings in the history of the case which have
been already so frequently discussed,' and are now publicly
so well known. In the course of the negotiation a demand,
he said, was made that mow drachmas should be deposited
pending the negotiation, in satisfaction of M.Pacifico's claims ;
and on the failure of compliance with those terms, coercive
measures were resolved on and resumed, in consequence of
which the King of Greece was compelled to pay one million of
drachmas.—(" No, no," from the Ministerial benches.) Then
it was not important.—(Laughter.) He now found that
330,000 drachmas were only demanded ; but it was not of im-
portance.—(Hear, and laughter.) What was the condition
in which the Noble Lord stood at that moment? The Noble
Lord was accused and insulted in certain grave charges made
against him--:charges followed up by the, withdrawal of the
French Ambassador (M. Drouyn de i'Huys) from the British
Court; and at that moment the Noble Lord was compelled
to accept of terms quite contrary to those of the convention
in the first instance—terms, mark, not containing one word
of thelpoints insisted on by Mr. Wyse. (The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman then read a copy of the communication made on
the subject of the settlement of the Greek question by
General Lahitte to the National Assembly, indicating
that France had not yielded anything of the conditions
which she at first proposed.) The Noble Lord, he said, held
out until he had almost 'driven the two nations to the verge
of war, and had subjected his own nation to humiliation ; and
was at last compelled to accede to that which he might and
ought to have acceded to in the first instance. The opinions
of the French Government, and of the greater part of
Europe, was against the course taken by the Noble Lord.
General Lahitte had said that the French Government had
no other motivein the affair than to aid in effecting justice
between the parties, and the opinion of Russia and of all the
other powers were averse to the course taken by the Noble
Lord. He should be glad to know whether the course of the
Noble Lord was the course best calculated to procure peace.
He thought not, and-that, so far from that, it was calculated
rather to subject the British nation to humiliation and
degradation. With respect to the assertion that Lord
Aberdeen had used quite as strong language as that
used by the Noble Lord on the subject of the Greek loan,
he ( Sir F. Thesiger) must say there was a very marked
difference. The course adopted by the Noble Lord (the
Earl of Aberdeen) was of a very different character. He
could not conclude his remarks without alluding to a state-
ment of the Noble Lord, in which the Noble Lord had
said that he would not be the Minister of Russia or of
France, or of any other power—(Hear, hear)— but that he
would be the Minister of England only. He must say that
he hardly understood the meaning of that statement of the
Noble Lord, but he presumed that the Noble Lord meant to
say that " upon every occasion while he was at the head of
the foreign affairs of this country he would be found to act
with regard to the sustainment of British interests, but not
with regard to the interests of any other country." Now,
if that was the meaning of the Noble Lord, he (Sir F.
Thesiger) thought it was a very • unsafe and a very danger-
ous one. He apprehended that in political ethics a state
should be regarded in the same manner as an individual,
with all his responsibilities and rights; and the Noble
Lord, acting as the Minister of England, would be
departing from the rule of right if, in his management of
the interests of England, he were not to give the same at-
tention to the interests of other countries that he would to
his own. There was a difference between domestic policy
add foreign policy, according to the Noble Lord. It was not
a very high eulogium on a Foreign Minister to say that he
would be the Minister of his own nation only, and not of
any other. Now, in what situation would they be placed,
should the House assent to the motion of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield ? They were not called upon to express a direct
opinion or censure on the policy of the Noble Lord. A
general resolution, approving of the Noble Lord's policy,
was presented to them in relation to his course on the ques-
tion now before the House. But a vote of this House in fa-
vour of that resolution would lose more than half of its
effect by a reference to a vote which had been come to on the
question in another place. Foreign nations were aware that
an opinion had been pronounced by a majority of the other
House of Parliament, condemnatory of the Noble Lord's po-
licy on the question now under the considerationof this House ;
and the sentence which had been pronounced by that House
had gone forth to all lands. The Noble Lord had been con-
victed by that sentence, and let this House do what it might,
it was quite impossible that he could refute that sentence or
reinstate himself in the confidence of foreign nations. -
(Hear, hear.) lie ventured, on the facts which he had sub-
mitted, to maintain that the Noble Lord at the head of fo-
reign affairs had constantly intervened, not to secure free-
dom, but for the purpose of either insisting peremptorily for
demands which should not be made, or for the purpose of
encouraging revolutions which were called an approach to
self-government, and he could show that, having so inter-
fered, the Noble Lord had left these revolutionary parties to
their fate. For these reasons, and being influenced by these
considerations, he intended giving a decided negative to the
motion whiCh the lion. and Learned Member for Sheffield
had submitted to the House.—(Cheers)
Mr. P. WOOD said that he came down to the House be-
lieving that the Commons of England would have to discuss
a question of the greatest importance, and deeply affecting
the interest, the honour, and the dignity of this country.
He had no idea that the motion would be met by such ar-
guments as those which had been used—of details of the
exaggeration of Don Pacifico's claim, or of the paltriness of
the vulgar speculation of Mr. Finlay, which he confessed
every one of which he had either heard or read before, and
which filled him with such ineffable disgust that he did not
believe they would hare been sanctioned by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Abingdon adopting them. He was
surprised, too, that the lion. and Learned Gentleman should
have thrown out the miserable insinuation that the Hon.
and Learned Member for Sheffield had earned a re•
ward, or was entitled to receive a reward, from
the Government for the part he took in con-
nexion with this question of such serious import.
He told the Honourable and Learned Member for
Abingdon that the llon, and Learned Member for Sheffield
had already earned a reward which it was in the power of no
Government to confer, namely, the affection and attachment
of the people of England. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man, however, was quite able to defend himself against such
an attack, and he (Mr. Wood) merely noticed it to show
the nature of the arguments they had to expect from the
quarter whence such insinuations emanated. The question
they were to discuss was one of great and serious import.
The determination of another place, as he suspected by their
resolution, was founded on this avowed principle, that they
desired to announce to Europe that the Foreign-office was not
England. That principle had been well and.promptly met
by the counter-resolution of the Iton. and Learned Member
for Sheffield, in which they were called on to state that
the Foreign-office had been well represented, and that the
course pursued was calculated to uphold the dignity
and honour of England. The Lords, by their vote, had
expressed an opinion that the Minister of England
had been regardless of England's honour. Every step
taken by the Noble and Learned Lord who submitted the
proposition in the House. of Peers was well known in this
House; but the Commons of England had not expressed any
vote in consideration of that foreign policy, nor were they
called upon to express any such opinion. No Member had
ventured to ask the decision of the House of Commons
whether England's honour had been tarnished during that
Administration which it was contended had brought them
into such a humiliating position. If that resolution were
correct the House of Commons had neglected its duty, and
they had announced to the whole of Europe whenever you
have a complaint to make you know that you have the
House of Lords to complain to. Now, his opinion was
directly opposed to that holden in the resolution of the-House
of Lords. He believed that the policy of the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, especially in reference to Greece,
was best calculated to uphold the,dignity and the honour of
England, and to maintain peace with foreign countries. If
they took issue on the whole policy of the Noble Lord they
could nut have a better example than in the case of Greece.
So far from being wanting in dignity and honour by the
course pursued, they should have been wanting in both had
they abstained from interfering in sustainment of the rights
of British subjects, and in obtaining for them speedy redress
for the wrongs they suffered. The only blame attachable to
Lord Palmerston was, that he bad not done that in 1848
which he caused to be done in 1850.—(Hear.) A British
subject fella to obtain redress from the Greek Government
in a just claim for compensation. He appealed to the re-
presentatives of the British Government on the spot where
the injustice had been done him and then they were told
that this was, the case of a canny Scot, who had made a good
bargain, and wished to hold it.—(Hear.) Then there was
the case of the plunder of property of a British subject—the
sons of the Minister of War being parties to the mischief—
who in addition to the total demolition of his furniture, had
his wife and daughter beaten. The answer given
to this case was, that it was the case of a Jew, and that
he had put, forward very exaggerated claims for com-
pensation. He. (Mr. Wood) felt deeply ashamed that in a
place where Don Pacific.° had not an opportunity of being
heard, it should be alleged against him that he bore the name
of a person whowould have been convicted of forgery if he had
failed to put down a certain sum of money. In Pacifico's
case the plain broad facts amounted simply to this, that he,
a BritiAh subject, had been refused redress by the Greek Go-
vernment for gross insults and injuries which he experi-
enced; and would it be contended that they upheld the
honour and dignity of England if such a state of things
were permitted to pass unnoticed? In the third case a man
named Zumaika was subjected to the moss cruel torture,
after the Turkish fashion, without any evidence in sustain-
ment of some alleged charge being preferred against him.
He (Mr. Woad) could prove, as he would do by and by, that
the unfortunate fellow had been cruelly and brutally tor-
tured. Redress was refused him, and were they to be told
that the British Government should tolerate injustice on one
who .had a right- to claim protection from them? A
man was to be robbed, according to •the morality
of those wha supported the • resulution of the other
Houses-because he happened to be a Scot; another was to
have his furniture destroyed, his house pillaged, and his
wife and daughter beaten, because he was a Jew; and a
third was violently and indecently tortured, because he was
accused of burglary without any evidence being produced
against him.bl a fourth cue A positive direct insult

-reT
EVENING,

I was offered to the British navy, by the treatment to which
the crew of the Fantome was subjected. They were told,
forsooth, that they should pass all those cases by. It did
seem to him that those who came to that conclusion must
have had rather a singular notion of what was due to the
honour and dignity of England. The Learned Gentleman
then went into the details of Mr. Finlay's case,
commenting on the panifest injustice of refusing
him compensation for the portions of his property
which the Greek Government had appropriated to
their own purposes, and showing that in 1842 Lord Aber-
deen considered he had a just claim for remuneration. The
Greek Government, after various applications on the part
of Mr. Finlay, told that gentleman to take his re-
medy, but the law of Greece did not permit of any recovery
against the King. At length they consented to have the
matter arbitrated, appointing as an arbitrator the president
of the tribunal, just as if justice in such a reference could be
expected from a party so interested, but they held back all
the papers connected with the matter in dispute until the
legal period of the reference had expired. In Pacifico's case
it was asked why he had not applied to the Authorities for
redress. He did try the authorities. He went before the
police, pointed out certain individuals, including the sons of
the Minister of War, as having been implicated in the out-
rage, but no redress was rendered him. M. Pacifico com-
plained to the King's advocate of the outrage committed
upon him, that a riotous mob broke into his house, headed by
the two sons of General Zavellos, one of the King's own
Ministers, and President of the Council ; he pointed out
the houses where his plundered property was concealed,
hut they refused to search, and he was unable to assert
for himself the rights of a Greek citizen, because he was
a Jew. The Honourable and Learned Member for Abing-
don asked, whether during the riots of Lord George
Gordon in 1780, if a house of a foreign Minister were attacked,
beca use he happened to be a Roman Catholic, would it be a
case for the Government of that Minister to demand redress?
Undoubtedly it would, and the case would be rendered irre-
sistible if the leader of the mob who committed the outrage
was the son of one of the Ministers of the day—(Loud cries
of " Hear, hear")—and the foreigner robbed and plundered
because he was a Roman Catholic, a circumstance as likely
to happen in those miserable times as that of the outrage on
the Jew at Athens. That undoubtedly would be a case for
foreign intervention, and that was precisely the case of M.
Pacitico.—(Cheers.) The Greek Minister, however, when
informed of the transaction, said it was a mere frolic of a
parcel of idle schoolboys, and unquestionably in his (Mr. P.
Wood's) view of the entire transaction, that House and the
country ought to feel grateful to the Noble Lord at the head
of the Foreign-office for taking such care of the interests
of British subjects abroad, and securing them from
a repetition of such horrible and flagrant outrages
as were committed in the present case. But then
it was said that the money taken from him was
not his own ; and how did that affect the case? The money,
no doubt, was trust money—two hundred and thirty pounds
of it were given him to build a synagogue, and 801. of his
own money. It was also alleged that he had no jewels' in his
house, but witnesses deposed to their having seen them, as
well as to the costly character of the furniture destroyed, and
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, who
delighted them in other respects by graphic descriptions, as
well as in his speeches in that House, knew well that it was
the-custom of the Jews in the East to have their riches and
most valuable property secluded altogether from- the public
gaze. As to the statement made that his claim on the Por-
tuguese Government was a mere pretence, he (Mr. Wood)
knew that he made his demand for that claim ao early as
1845, and Sir Edmund Lyons, their former Minister at Athens,
diStinctly states, in one of his dispatches, that he remem-
bered well speaking to him on the subject, and it could not
therefore be trumped up for the occasion. If they looked at
Baron Gros's statement, and, without wishing to say anything
offensive to that gentleman, he should say M. Pacifico fell
into bad hands, they would find it the most extraordinary
for one in his position that could be imagined. He
Was sent out as a mediator, and the first thing he did in
tnat capacity was to refuse the Portuguese claim on the
evidence of the debtor.—(Loud cheers.) The most extra-
ordinary circumstance in that extraordinary case was, that
there was a gentleman sent out by the French Government
to act impartially. lie refused to admit the claim on the
Portuguese Government, because he received two dispatches
from that Government denying the claim.—(Cheers and
laughter.) Next came the case which was not discussed at
all—namely, that of a poor man named Zumaika, an lonian
subject. He was at Patras, working as a blacksmith, and
being charged with committing burglary, on mere suspicions,
he was, on denying the offence, put to the torture. They put
a heavy stone on his chest, on which two men sat, and then
the unfortunate creature had to undergo another process of
suffering of too horrible and indecent a description to
detail to the House. He made a complaint the
day after, and a mock investigation was ordered by the
Government, and a person with the pompous name
of Chricento Fulus, a doctor, was the person who
conducted it. He inspected the man, and what was his
report? That he had suffered no external injury—that no
organic change had taken place in him, and that his injuries
were the result of an attack of rheumatism (A laugh )-•or
of his trade as a tiuker.—(Laughter.) He contended that
the case, up to the present moment, had been treated of, and
discussed like a nisi prius case, and not on broad or general
principles. The case of that man underwent a secret exami-
nation, and when the British Vice-Consul remonstrated with
the physician for sending in such a report, his answer was
that he could not help it, for that the police compelled him
to do so.—(Cheers.) Sir Edward Lyons stated the same
thing in one of his dispatches, and asserted that the physi-
cian told him so. That was the state of things described
elsewhere with so much levity; and when the words
" brutal treatment" was so much cavilled at, could any
man doubt but that he was " brutally treated ?" (Hear,
bear, and cheers.) And in addition to the outrages to
whicht he had already called the attention of the House,
he was kept three months in prison, without any charge
whatever being sustained, or brought against him.
And after the refusal to do justice on the part of the Greek
Government, was it not the bounden duty of the Foreign Mi-
nister to see that these things should not be repeated? But
that was not all; for continued insults had been offered.
lonians were imprisoned without cause—flogged at the plea-
sure of those in power— and a poor man for putting up a few
flags was brought through the streets as a malefactor.—
(Hear, hear.) Indeed, so great were the sufferings they en-
dured, that a memorial was presented to the Consul (signed
by forty lonians in Patras) praying for redress and protec-
tion, or they would be compelled to leave the country alto-
gether. Then came the plunder of the lonian boats, valued
at 1,2001., and which were enticed into the Greek custom-
house by brigands; and the last, the most flagrant of
all, committed on' one of their own boats beloneing to
the Fantome ship, commanded by Captain Le hardy.
The whole of these outrages were set forth in De-
cember, 1818, and the Greek Government urged not to
mistake the forbearance of England, for ample satisfac-
tion should be given in the end. Mr. Wyse's letter
again recapitulated them, and used almost the same language
in his letter` to Mr, Londos. What could be done under
such circumstances, but to demand reparation.—(Cheers.)
Should they have gone to Russia and France and say,
that if they were in their unhappy position, they would
demand reparation. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
read the celebrated letter of Count Nesselrode, the Russian
Minister, complaining of what the Government, in pro-
ceeding with hostilities against Greece, a kingdom indebted
to Russia and France for large sums of money advanced to
her, and proceeded. They might talk of dignity, and assert
that this letter humbled England, but it only amonnted in
his mind to this, (that if England insisted on having the
claims of her subjects compensated, there would not be
enough left to pay their demand. We had broken that
delusion, he trusted, for ever, and shown that England
could be at once just and firm. The course adopted towards
Greece—that of stopping her trade for a short time—was
the only one open, looking at the relative strength of the
two countries. Surely Hon. Members did not wish
that we should have a " little war" with Greece. But,
after having waited for so many years, after
having so repeatedly remonstrated with the Government, it
was n-cessary to show that there was a limit to forbearance,
and he thought the step taken at last by the Noble Lord
was the only one that could maintain the interests, the
honour, and the dignity of England, and also at the same
time maintain an honourable general peace. He had felt it
to be his duty to present this view of the case, because he
believed the public were not acquainted with it.—(Hear,
hear.) Few, indeed, could submit to the drudgery of going
through the mass of papers in which the facts were con-
tained. But if any one would do so, they would find every
statement he had made borne out by these documents. It
was one thing to make a statement having reference to a
few small details, for the purpose of making out a case of
hardship, and another to look through papers extending over
the long period of eight years, during the whole of which
period every species of evasion and of idle trifling was re-
sorted to. He had done this himself, and he came
to the deliberate conclusion that the Noble Lord
had taken the only step that was Olsen to him in
the matter. He came to this conclusion from no
personal feeling, because, though for many years he had
watched the course of the Noble Lord, he did not know him
personally, nor did he know that he had ever exchanged a
word with him. But this he did say, that looking to the
year 1848, when the peace of Europe was menaced to so
alarming an extent, and to the adroitness with which the
Noble Lord maintained the position and influence of England,
and at the same time conduced to the preservation of peace
in Europe—(Cheers)—looking at that, and seeing that at all
events peace had been maintained, he could not believe but
that the Noble Lord was entitled to the admiration and the
support of the country.—(Cheers.) It was' true that the
Noble Lord had been engaged in negotiations with France
and other countries, arising out of those events. But those
who deprecated the interference of the Noble Lord, spoke as
though there had been no interference elsewhere, as if France
had not interfered at Rome —( Minieterial .cheers)—Russia
in Hungary— (Cheers)—and Prussia with Denmark.—( Hear,
hear.) These were armed interferences, whereas the inter-
ference of the Noble Lord had in all cases been first solicited,
and had always been confined to friendly meditation, with
the view of maintaining peace.—(Great laughter on the
Opposition benches.) He could understand why that state-
ment was ridiculed by those who were for maintaining peace
by at all times ranging themselves on the side of absolutism
—(Ministerial cheers)—who were, as the Hon. and Learned
Member for Abingdon had said, "the party of order and not
of change." His Hon. and Learned Friend,
no doubt,
thought he had made an antithesis when he used that ex-
pression, but there was little philosophy in ite He believed
that change was the only mode of maintaining order.—
(hear.) He would ask any one who had observed the pre-
sent state of European nations, if they believed that order
could be long maintained if it was not for change.{ was not
for us to stimulate that change. Our desire was that every
nation in Europe should be as free and as happy as ourselves.
But it was well known that our power and influence were
limited to friendly advice. Whenever that was asked it was
given freely. We did not interfere against existing autho-
rities in any country, and those who opposed them knew
str-
eemll
etnheay fom the British Government. lie must say
t they would not receive assistance either in arms
that
to this countryheregrettedtha they
twhenthe
should Hun havegarian: deputation
came trusted
more to .the declarations made at public meet-
ings by persons who had no power of realising their
statements, or of giving efficient assistance, than to the
exposition of the Noble Lord's views in that House, in
which he frankly expressed his deep sympathy with that
unfortunate people, but at the same time frankly stated that
hadno baesesni s tdaeneceei
vferdo mi t
led Gil oe et- ebrenenne ebn3t,..
II!
ef
thee
sye cgentlemen
• e
Noble Lord, or the Ministry with which he was connected,
which had strictly acted on the avowed policy of non-inter-
ference with the internal affairs of Foreign States. He well
remembered that when the Hon. Member for Buckingham-
shire ventured to raise a debate with regard to Italy, he was
not able to point to any act of interference which was not justi-
fied by the Noble Lord, by showing that his advice, so far
from being volunteered, had in every instance been asked.
It was requested by the Sovereigns of Rome, the Court
of Austria, and the Cabinet of Prussia. In the case
of the mediation at the instance of Austria, there
could be no doubt the Noble Lord had aided in
preventing French armies being sent to the plains
of Lombardy.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the affair at
Athens, much had been said in_depreelation of the claims of
one of the parties, because he was a'-dew; but Hon, Mem-
bers were aware that the term Greek ,bad a similar signifi-
cation for the French people. The fact was, that the
Greeke and the Jews bad been trampled upon, oppTessed,
, precluded-from to outdo oleorotitutioud righo,