The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-23 00:00:00

pared to receive them. They regarded a mooed clove-
her as a speculative attempt. The legislative council
was to have full power to make change?, and to choose
their own time and their own couroe in inakinie these
changes. How could they judge for them so well as
they could judge for themselves? Ho should therefore
support her Mejesty's Government upon this question.
Mr. HUME said that the coloni,t; should have the
power to decide forthwith, and whenever they pleased,
what form of government it would he most expedient for
them to adopt. The amendment proposed to transfer the
whole of the time-honoured estates of this country into
the colony, which did nit contain any materials of a na-
ture at all analogous to the materials which existed in
this c,untry. A speech more inapplicable to the condi-
tion of the colonists than that of the Hon. Mover of the
amendment he had never heard. He was entirely wrong.
in proposing to transfer and carry out in a colony all
the institutions of this country. Ile would transfer to
the colony the whole bench ot bishops. He would not
support any measure of dictation to the colonics. The
Act of her Majesty's Government was founded upon a
wise and liberal policy. The effect of it would be to bind
our colonies to this country, and make their interests one
with it. By it they should retain their all,giance, and
make them commercially useful and valuable to this

country.
Mr. HOPE said, that if they thought that government
by a S.esereign dial two Houses of Parliament was the
best fora Sevin race, then they ought to give them a con-
stitution founded upon those principles. They should
have the elements of good, honest, and just government,
and that was best ensured by the forms of the British
Constitution. He should, therefore, support the amend-
ment.
Mr. SCOTT said, that the basis of all the arguments
of the Government was, that they ought not to legislate
for the colonists without their consent. Well, Sir, they
had not their consent to the measure proposed by Go-
vernment. They had sent out this Bill, which had
reached the colony during the sitting of the Legislature
of the colony, and yet they had had no expression of
opinion yet. When it was said with boldness they had,
he was constrained to any that he thought the assertion
a misstatement of the Under-Secretary of State. They
had bad simply an opinion from the colony a New
South Wales, but from no other colony. The circum-
stances of that colony were totally different. There was,
in the first place, a petition presented to the House in
1848, from the colony of New South Wales, and it was
not then stated that any dislike to two chambers
existed, but there was a complaint in it
against the system proposed by the Colonial
Secretary at the time, which the colonists, it
adopted, would deprive them of the elective franchise.
Those petitioners said they were anxious to enjoy the
benefit of British institutions, but there wss not a word
against their having a second chamber. There was also
presented a petition to that House from the electoral
division of Penrine, in which it was stated that the Bill
then proposed, in 1848, by Lord Grey, would be then
a 13111 of pains and penalties, and prayed her Majesty
not to sanction the passing of so crude and experitnere al
a law in respect cf them. But, again, there was no opi-
nion expressed against two chambers. The petition
presentsd to that House from Port Philip, in reference
to that Bill, was of a similar import. There were three
other petitions presented from the colony to that House,
all of a like import, and where, then, was the evidence
of the colonists being against two chambers? He thought
it necessary to refer to those petitions, in consequence
of the words put into the mouths of the colonists
by the -Under-Secretary fer the Colonies and other
Hon. Gentlemen who supported his views. Then, again,
the opinion of the governor of Van Diemen's Land was
also in favour of two chambers. He said decidedly, that
if a union of those colonies were to take place, he would
recommend the establishment ef an upper chamber.
And why did he say so? It was because that he con-
ceived such would elevate the state of society in that
colony. In arguing the question, however,they ha I heard
nothing of the advantages which would accrue to the
colony from the establishment of such a chamber, but
all that was contended was, that such a chamber was
adverse to the opinions 'of the Colonists, but he thought
the opinions of the colonists, as expressed in the peti-
tions ho had alluded to, and that of the governor of Van
Diemen's Laud, was a decided arid satisfactory answer
to that argument. Besides, the Noble Earl at the head
of the Colonial-office himself, two years ago, ex-
pressed a much similar opinion, and now he thought
was the time that such could be advantageously
conferred on the country. No doubt their bad legisla-
tion in respect of Australia had rendered the materials
for a second Chamber less than they would have been,
but still there was sufficient to begin•with, and he would
most cord ally support the amendment.
Mr. LA.BOUCHERE said he was anxious not to
give a silent vote in respect of this amendment, and he
thought he might say, in speaking of it, sad in respect
of the measure now before the House, that the coerce
Government had taken in respect of that measure was
frank and open ; that they had been actuated by the best
intentions towards those colonies to which the measure
referred, nod he had no doubt that their intentions would
be jointly appreciated by those for whom the measure was
intended. The intelligence which has been received
from Australia, not only from official sources, but also
from the newspapers published in the colony, went to
show that upon the whole the measure had been re-
ceived by the colonists as not only wise, kind, and po-
litic, but also one which woul strengthen their institu
tions and promote their general welfere—the knowledge
of that fact, that the measure had been so well re-
ceived by the colonists, comforted him amid all the at-
tacks which had been made upon him es a supporter of it
in the course of its discussion in that House ; and be
had not the slightest doubt that Government would,
should it be passed, be awarded the greatest credit for
proposing measures which had the effect of extending
the blessings of the institutions of this country to their
remotest possessions. The question now under discus-
sion was whether it would be proper to at once propose
the introduction of two chambers, or whether they should
pass the measure as it stood, leaving to the colonists
themselves to test it, and shculd they find a double
chamber requisite to adopt it. It was thought proper in
considering the question to-refer it to the consideration
of the Committee in Privy Council, and the doing so
enabled the Government to examine all the facts and
documents connected with the case, in fact, to, as it
were, take the colonists themselves before them, and
bear them in respect of their case. That had been
attended with the best result., for it showed
the colonists that there was every feeling and
wish on the part of the Government to consider their
case. In that Committee he admitted that there was
an expression of opinion in favour of two chambers, but
in giving expression to that opinion they were doing no-
thing more than giving expression to what he believed
to be the opinion of the great majority of the people
of this country. In this country they had been accus-
tomed to two chambers too long not to cherish them.
But in the report of the Committee of Privy Council
the reasons which induced them not to concede two
chambers in the present instance, but leave that to the
colonists themselves wee also stated; and be thought no
one who read those reasons would fail to see that there
etas in the whole conduct of the Government respecting
the :evasive an obvious and anxious desire to respect
the &elitists of the colonists, and to consult them on all
matters connected with their interest. That being the
case, he was not a little surprised at Honourable Mem-
bers on his side of the House, who spoke so much about
giving effect to the opinions of the people, urging so
many objections to the measure, and complaining so'
much of the conduct of the Government respecting it.
He would not weary the House by reading papers, but
he thought there was no one who read the documents
which bad come from Australia respecting this mea-
sure but could fail to see that the colonists ob..
jected to any change in their present institutions without
their being consulted; and that being the case, was it
not better to pass this measure which the colonists ap-
proved of, rather than adopt one which it was doubtful
as to whether or not they would accept. He admitted
that in making the chamber elective, they had introduced
a new principle into the colony, but that was one of the
most important principles of the constitution of this
country, and wherever they could, it ought to be ex-
tended. An Hon. Gentleman had hinted as much as
that the second chamber contended for should contain
somewhat of hereditary elements, but be would never be
a party to the sowing the seeds of aristocracy in such a
place as Australia. That principle was contended for
by Mr. Pitt, in a measure which he introduced respecting
Canada, but it was strenuously opposed by Mr. Fox, and
the propriety of its rejection was now seen in the state of
Canada. He believed, if they introduced a second chain-
bar, it should be on the principle of election, but he felt
convinced it was not wise to do so in that instance. In the
first place, lot them look at the delay which must take
place if they adopted it. They should create a qualifica-
tion which must cause delay and much disappointment,
avid that, too, at a time when it was absolutely neces-
sary to pass the measure during the present session of
Parliament. One of the many topics which now pressed
on their attention was, the separation of Victoria from
New South Wales, and it would be utterly impossible
to do that if the principle of the present Bill were re-
jected this session. lie very much doubted if, in these
colonies at present, sufficient persons could be found to
constitute an Assembly and a Second Chamber at a time;
and that was the opinion of two distinguished men—Sir
G. Grey, Governor of Van Diemen's Land, and Sir G.
Gibbs. That et as the opinion, also, of men in the cede-.
nies themselves, who were, in theory, for the principle
of two chambers, but avowed that, at present, it was
impossible to procure persons to: form a second cham-
ber. Mr. Wentworth, a gentleman of great distinction
in New South Wales, placed a motion on the books
of the Council, stating, he preferred one chamber
to two, where one was composed of nominees of the
Crown first, because there did not exi=t any class of
sufficient fortune in the colonies t.) be raised to the station
of hereditary legislators, or legislators for life; and se-
condly, because the second chamber would be composed
of nominees of the Crown, appointed for a limited period
in the council; and a council thus constituted would be a
mere machine in the hands of the Colonial-office. It
was quite true he made no reference to an elective
chamber on an elective principle, but even if he had, he
would, no doubt, on the principles which be propounded,
be of the same opinion. Considering, therefore, the
opinions expressed by the colonists, and that they were
not legislating for colonies suffering under oppression—
considering the people in the main were satisfied with
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every reason to believe the measure gave great satisfac-
tion to the colonies; the merchants concealed with them
had petitioned in its favour, and on that account he
hoped the House would support the measure of the Go-
vernment, brought forward in a spirit of goodwill and
kindness, and reject the motion of the lion. and Learned
Member for Midburst.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH contended it was the duty
of the British Parliarneet frame institutions, in the
first instance, for their auiunlsLs. and on that account a
deep responsibility was attached to them. There were
Are colonies in Australia, one of which had already a,