The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-25 00:00:00

IRELAND.

THE STATE TRIALS..

(EIGHTH DAY.)

(FROM OUR OWN REPORTERS.)
COURT OF QUEEN'S BENCI-I.

DUBLIN, TUESDAY.,
THE QUEEN V. DANIEL O'CONNELL AND OTHERS.
The Court sat at ten o'clock. The traversers were in
punctual attendance.
The first witness called was John Maoire, Head-
constable of Police, who being examined by Mr.
Bennett, Q.C., on the part of the Crown, de-
posed—l am a Head-constable of Police ;in the
month of May last I was stationed in the town ,of
Sligo. I remember having attended the Longford
Repeal meeting, which was held last May on a Sunday.
I saw the people coming into the town that (lay. They
came flocking into the town between eight and nine
o'clock with musical bands playing before them. They
walked down the street playing " St. Patrick's Day,
" Garryowen," and " The Irishmen." The bandsmen
had peculiar dresses upon them. They wore military
caps, some of which had red bands and some gold bands.
There was here some trifling noise in the Court which
appeared to annoy
Mr. Bennett, who requested that Mr. Hatchell would
use his influence with the gentlemen around him to pre-
serve order, as it would be otherwise very difficult to
conduct the examination.

Mr. Fitzgibbon (who was sitting next to Mr. Hat-
chell) said—l can assure you, Mr. Bennett, that no one
is making a noise in the vicinity of Mr. Hatchell.
Mr. Bennett—But I can assure you, Mr. Fitzgibbon,
that there is, for I can hear him speaking at this dis-
tance.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Fitzgibbon—l'm sitting nearer to Mr. ilatchell
than you are, and if there was any voice I should hear it.
Mr. Bennett—l assert there is noise, and I would not
say so were it not that I know it to be true.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Fitzgibbon—This interruption is quite uncalled for.
Mr. Bennett—Pm not alluding to you at all now, so
keep yourself quiet.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Yes, but you said there was noise in
my vicinity, and there is nothing of the kind.
Mr. Bennett—l repeat what I said before ; some gen-
tlemen around Mr. Hatchell are speaking so loudly that
I am interrupted in my examination of the witness.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—lf there is noise in Court it does not
come from this side of the Court—(A laugh)—l'm right.
Mr. Bennett—So am I.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Forde—My Lords, I was only making a sugges-
tion to my counsel, Mr. Hatchell, and this I submit I
had every right to do.
The Chief Justice—You ought not to be interrupting
the Court, Mr. Forde.
Mr. Forde—Nor was I, my Lord. I merely leant over
the bar to make a suggestion to Mr. Hatchell relative to
the cross-examination.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—l don't think Mr. Forde's voice could
have interrupted anybody.
Mr. Bennett—A h, Mr. Fitzgibbon, do permit me to go
on.—(Laughter.)
Mr. Fitzgibbon—l have not the slightest objection.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. Bennett—Well now, witness, you were proceed-
ing to describe the bands ; they wore military caps
you say ?
Witness—Yes, with red or gold bands ; some of the
bands were preceded by a man dressed like a drum-
major, who held a large stick in his hand ; the
people followed the bands ; I formed an estimate
of the numbers who were present ; I should think
from 40,000 to 50,000 people were met together
on the occasion ; I observed a person leading the
crowds ; the person in question I believe to be a Ca-
tholic priest ; the people came on in military order ; I
mean by military array a kind of rank and tile order of
marching ; there were several persons on horseback ;
about 100 of them came into town with Mr. O'Connell ;
he sat on the front box or seat of his carriage ; there
was a gentleman sitting with him, whom I under-
stood to be Bishop Biggins. Mr. Steele was inside,
and another person, who seemed to be a clerical
gentleman. I did not know who he was. Mr. O'Con-
nell arrived about two o'clock. Ile was preceded
by three or tour bands playing before him. The houses
in the town were decorated with green boughs. and
some of the people carried boughs in their hands, waving
them ; some of the people had sticks, and on approaching
the platform way was made for them, and some of them
had sticks and were brandishing them; the meeting broke
up between four and five o'clock ; I was near the platform,
which was very large, and a number of persons on it ; I
did not see any of the traversers, except Mr. O'Connell and
Mr. Steele; I took notes of the mottoes that day ; but Mr.
Johnston took notes of the speeches from a window, under
my observation, as we could not both conveniently take
them ; the motto over the platform was "Ireland for the
Irish, and the Irish for Ireland ;" that was very conspi-
cuous ; in another part of the town was " A population
of nine millions is too great to be dragged at the tail
of another nation ;" it was on a large piece of white
calico or linen, and was fastened to the wall on the
Dublin road ; it was after the meeting I saw
it there ; another motto was "He that com-
mits a crime strengthens the enemy ;" I am quite
sure the word enemy was there • another motto was
" Repeal and no separation"—" dead mile fealtha." I
heard Mr. O'Connell speak that day in the early part of
his speech. He said theirs was no vain cause. I cannot
charge my memory with having heard him make any
allusion to trial by jury or the administration of justice.
Did you hear him wake any allusion to judges or
courts of justice ?—He said " they took the commission
of the peace from your respected supporters ;" he also
said to the people " Go home quietly, and tell your
friends what you have heard, and when I want you
again won't you be ready ?" That sentence was im-
pressed on my memory, as it was the conclusion of his
speech ; after that Mr. Steele came forward, with a
parcel of papers ; he said they were speeches of the
Liberator's, made about some measure of Sir E. Peel's.
After Mr. O'Connell made his speech did you see any
brandishing of sticks ?—No.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Having regard to the testimony of
the last witness yesterday I would ask is that question
put in a fair or legal shape?
Judge Perrin—Sure it has been answered.
Chief Justice—What harm is the answer?
Mr. Bennett—l would be exceedingly obliged to Mr.
Fitzgibbon if he finds me putting an illegal question to
make an objection to it at the time, and I shall either
sustain it or give it up.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—" After Mr. O'Connell's speech did
you see any brandishing of sticks ?"
Mr. Bennett—Yes ; I had a right to put that ques-
tion, and you are not to judge of its legality, Sir ; it is
for the Court.
Chief Justice—Oh, go on with the examination.
Witness—The people all dispersed after the meeting.
Chief Justice—Can you state about how many per-
sons you suppose were there ?—I think between forty
and fifty thousand.
Cross-examined by Mr. Hatchell, Q.C.—I am in the
constabulary, and a first head constable. I am not a
sub-inspector, but it is the next step to my office. John-
ston was the head constable there on the occasion.
There are two degrees in the class of head constables.
There is one chief head constable in each county.
Mr. O'Connell—Speak up, Sir, let us hear what
you say.
I am a first head constable,
_and the next step is sub-
inspector. I came to Longford on the 27th of May, the
night before the meeting. I came with Johnston, who
was examined here yesterday.
Did you read any report of his evidence in the papers
this morning ?—Nut this morning.
Did you last night, Sir ?—Yes, I did.
Mr. Hatchell—So I thought.

Were you ever in the arn►y ?—No.
Where did you stop in Longford ?—We got into tt
house convenient to the platform.
And you saw it of course ?—Yes, certainly.
])id you see any breach of the peace committed ?
None whatever.

Or any tendency to a breach of the peace ?—There
was no breach of the peace committed.
Why do you evade giving me a direct answer ?—I will
tell you all I know about the subject.
-INrtts there any tendency to a breach of the peace
did nut see any breach of the peace committed.
Give me a direct answer, Sir. Was there any ten-
dency to a breach of the peace ?—None that I saw.
I take it for g►ranted you are not at Repealer ?
—(Laughter.)—No, nor do I belong to any other party.
Don't youbelong to a party of police ?—(Laughter.)
You saw a great deal of people there ?—Yes, after
Mr. O'Connell arrived.

But there WRS no breach of the peace, and having gone
there to preserve the peace, and finding the peace was
not broken,
_ _ _

"Alan, Othello's occupation was gone,"
and Arr. head-constable 'Maguire had nothing at all to
do.—(Great laughter.) Was it not so?—I did not go
there to preserve the peace at all.
Didn't you though. Ah, me ! Well, and what
brought you there Mr. Head-constable Maguire ?—I
went there to make observations.

Mr. Mitchell—Hall ! That was the tactic of a good
general to see how the land lay in the first instance.—
(Loud laughter.)— When we are assembled for preserv-
ing the peace, we act under the command of the sub-
inspector.
The people were coining in merrily ?—Yes, they were.
The same as to a country fair ?—Eh.
Did you ever see the people coming into au Irish
country fair merrily?—Yes, very.
After kicking up their heels and dancing a little bit ?
Loud laughter. Yes, something after that fashion.
ou said the people were brandishing their sticks ?
Yes, they were.
ras it in anger or disorder, or had it a tendency to
anger or quarrel amongst themselves?—Not the least
anger.
They were coming in parties, you said ?—Yes, they
were coming in military array.
Oh, dear me, in military array. Now had they their
sticks on their shoulders this way ?—(Here the Learned
Gentleman shouldered a large pen amid great laughter.)
Was that the way, eh P—No they had not.
Do you understand me ?—I suppose I do.
Did they carry arms ?—(Great laughter.)—No.
Did they come to the port ?—No.—(Laughter.)
Did they present arms when the General came up?—
(Roars of laughter.)—No.
Did they charge ?—No.
They did not ?—No, they did not.
And yet they came in military array. Wonderful
Captain Maguire !—(lmmense laughter.) They came
in military array and did not carry arms, did not come
to the port, did not present arms to the General, did not
charge—(Laughter)—and yet they came in military
array ?—Yes, they did.
Did they halt P—Some of them might have halted.
J.)o you mean that iK)in9 t)f them were lame?—(Shouts

of laughter.)—There might be some of them lame, and
in that sense they might halt.—(Laughter.)
Where did they halt?—Near the platform.
That was when they could not go further ?—Yes.—
(Immense laughter.)
Did they stand at ease ?—I suppose they did, for some
of them must have come a good distance, and therefore
they must have been tired.—(Laughter.)
Oh, they wanted rest, and then they stood at ease—
just so ?—(Laughter.)—They marched, and halted, and
stood at ease, because they were tired.
Do you know anything about marching ?—Yes, some-
thing.
Were you ever drilled ?—I was.
Do you know the first movement ?—When a person is
desired to march he is to put his left leg foremost.—
(Shouts of laughter.)
And let your right leg follow it ?—Yes, that's it.
Well, now, were the people coming in military array,
with their left legs fin-emost ?—(Renewed laughter.)—l
do not know which of their legs were foremost.—(Great
laughter.)
Did you see them all march ?—I don't know.
Did you ever hear " Come, brave boys, we're on for
march.7ng"—(Laughter) ?—Can you explain the dif-
ference between the right and left legs ?—(Shouts of
laughter.}—Not exactly.
wfdch of your legs is foremost now ?—Cannot say.
Mr. Bennett—What has the difference of legs to do
in this _case ?

fictehell—no not be angry because I am pleased.
Come, Cai-itain Maguire—Gcneral, I think, I ought to
call you--di."l you ever read Dundas on Manceuvring ?
Yes, a little.
What part of it ?—Cannot say.
- Then, you have forgotten your lesson ?—So it ap-
pea rs.—(Laugh ter.) •
Well, now, having gotten so far with your left leg
foremost, what do you mean by rank and file ?—Two
deep.
Ali, bah ! you are too deep for me. On your oath,
does it mean two deer, or a single file ?—Cannot tell
exactly.
Oh, there you are, Mr. Captain Maguire, on Dundas's
tactics.—(Laughter.) Do you mean to tell the jury
that the people all came in marching two deep ?—I
do not.

They did not march two and two, rank and Ale ?
—They did not march two deep, but some of them did.
How many of them did so ?—Some more and some
less.

Were they short or long ?--Don't know.
Well, take the largest party, and say how many came
two deep ? (The witness made a very long pause.)
Mr. Ilatchell—Well ?

Witness—Well,•Sir.
Mr. Mitchell—l say ill, Sir ;go on.—(Laughter. )
Well go on ?—The largest namber of a party might ex-
cee,l 100.

Did they come in two deep ?—Some of them did.
Will you swear that any one body of them came two deep ?
—Some of them came two deep in a hind of military order.
Oh ! a kind of military order, was it ?—Yes.
By virtue of your oath, Sir, did you not swear a moment ago
that they came in rank and file?—lt was a kind of rank and file.

Like Mounting the Castle-guard ?—Exactly so.
By virtue of your solemn oath, will you swear that any one
of the parties you saw came in order such as the guard goes in
when relieving the other guard at the Castle 2—Some of
them did.

Was there any entire party who came two and two ?—Some
of them did.
On your oath were therNot a great many women and chil-
dren there ? Yes ; the women and children came after Mr.
O'Connell.—(Laughter.) I mean after he came into town.
Did they not, come in with the men ?—They might have
totnt in after the men. _ _ _

Were they not with the men ? Some of the parties 1 de-
scribed had no women. . _

Was there any party with women and children ?—Yes.
Were they with all the parties f_They might have come
after the parties.
Were there not lots of women and children in the military
array ?—They might have followed the men.—(Laughter.)
The women and children followed in the rear ?-0n the
sides.
Then the women were beside the men ?—ln some cases.
Were they mixed with them ?—Not with those men who
came in as I described to you before.
Mr. Hatchell—l do not want to entrap the witness, but I
want him to give us a fair and honest
_statement of what took
place, according to what he saw.
Witness—l am disposed to do se.
Now, you talked of a drum-major ?—I
Do you know what a drum-major is ?—I do.
Had he a silver-beaded cane in his hand ?—He had a stick
in his hand, the top of which was either silver or something
representing silver.
It was the band-master Lad that ?—No; the drum-major.
Is that the band-master ?—No, it is not.
You knew them to be temperance bands, did yon ?—No ;
they were all strangers to me.
I know you did not know them personally ; but did you
know them to be temperance bands?—l was informed that
some of them were.

And when the meeting was determined, and the speeches
were over, all the people returned quietly lame ?—They did.
And their wives and children with them ?—They all went
away.
At what hour ?—Between four and five o'clock.
John Jolly was the next witness produced, and being sworn,
was examined by Mr. Brewster, Q.C.-1 am head-constable
of Cork, East Riding. I remember a meeting at Mallow on
the 11th of last June. I was there. It was on Sunday. I
went in uniform to Mallow, but I changed my clothes before
the meeting took place. Before the meeting commenced I saw
a procession. I saw it pass through Mallow in the direction
from which I was told Mr. O'Connell was to come. I cannot
recollect the place where it passed. I was a stranger there.
The procession was a very numerous one. There were several
bands. Tkere were persons on horseback. The procession
marched in regular order with bands and banners ; the bands
playing and the colours flying. Several of them had cards at-
tached to their button-holes to distinguish them from others.
More had paper round their hats with the words " O'Connell's
Police" written upon it.
Describe what order they went in ?—They marched four or
five deep. The horsemen went much in the same way, ap-
parently in regular order.
Did you see persons taking more particular command than
others ?—I did.

Describe in what positions in the procession they were ?
They were outside the body, or the ranks, as I may call it, and
appeared to give directions to the others. Some of the horse-
men who did take this command had wands, with something
like ribbon tied on the top. It was late in the evening when
the procession returned. Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Steele re-
tamed with it. Ido not remember ever to have seen so large
a meeting.
How many think you were there l'.--I think there were some
hundreds of thousands. I have never seen such a crowd before.
_ _ __

In what part ;late procession were Mr. O'Connell and Mr.
Steele ?—I did not see them in the procession, but I saw them
on the platform.
Where was the platform erected?—lt was erected near
the shambles in Mallow. _

Was it a large place ?—lt was a very large open space, and
it war very nearly full; I went near to the platform; I was
about ten yards from it ; sometimes nearer, but the place where
I stopped at last wag about ten yards from the platform.
Did you take a note of the proceedings ?-7I did not.

Did You hear Mr. O'Conn;ll's speech ?—Part of it.
Are you able to state the substance of any part or parts of it ?
—I am. The first thing that was done was to present an address
to Mr. O'Connell ; so at least I was told, fur at that time I
could sot get near enough to the platform.
What did you hear Mr. O'Connell say ?—He first said that
he came to tell them a secret, and thought there were enough
of them to keep it.—( Laughter.) He told them, too, that the
Union should be repealed by some time that I cannot exactly
remember.—( Laughter.)
Did he mention any time?.—He did. He also said that they
should have " Ireland for the Irish. They might have
England for the English, and Scotland for the Scotch, but
Ireland should be for the Irish ; and that he defied them to
keep it, for they were too numerous, too determined, and
too temperate." He said that on the face of the earth there
were not a greater pack of bribers than the lfiritish House
of Commons, and that was admitted by xime authority he then
gave. He then asked the crowd, did they ever hear talk of the
man with the ugly name ? Sugden—(Laughter.) He said a
friend of his in Kilkenny told him he would not call his pig
" Sugden "—(Laughter)—and as for the Lord Lieutenant, he
way so ignorant that he heard he sent a commissioner to see
if Kilkenny was a seaport.—( Laughter.) lie then alluded to
the police. There were some members of she police there,
and he spoke of them. He said that if they had made applica-
tion to him, he would have appointed several of his own
police to keep the peace, and save the police the trouble of
coming there. He said they sent the soldiers to shoot them.
" but," said he, " they know a trick worth two of that."
—(Laughter.) He said, "if we are attacked we will defend
ourselves. The sergeants of the English army are the finest
body of men in the world, but the worst treated. The French
eergeants were generally raised to the rank of officers;
they wtre a great deal better treated than the English,
by being promoted to the rank of officers." He also
began telling the crowd the elects of repeal. He said the
labourers would be farmers, the farmers gentlemen, and
the gentlemen Members of Parliament— (Loud laughter, in
which the Court and jury joined)—no, not Members of Par-
liament, but Lords.--( Repeated laughter). He asked the
crowd, Would they be ready to come again if he wanted them,
and desired as many as would to hold up their hands. The
crowd held up a wood of hands. He said when they came again
he would require them to come armed, but the arms would be
repeal cards.
Mr. Brewster—Did you observe anything particular—l
mean in his tone and gesture, when he was then speaking ?
Yes, he paused when he said " armed," before he said " with
repeal cards;" the meeting lasted about two hours. I saw
something occur on the platform before the meeting commenced
which attracted my attentiln ; some one on the platform—it
was before Mr. O'Connell came—pointed out a person in the
crowd, and desired hien to leave the meeting ; he said he
-should be put out by force if he did not leave it. He said to
the crowd, " Cut his reins, drive him out, he is an enemy." I
did not see this person, bet I think he was on horseback, as the
other said, " cut his reins."
Cross-examined by Mr. Whiteside—Are you acquainted with
Mr. Johnston ?—I saw him.
When did you see him last ?—I saw him in the Court to-day.
Did you see him last night ?—Yes.
Did you thee know he was examined yesterday ?—I did.
Did you talk about the trial with him ?—No, he was away
from me.
Have you not seen him frequently before the trials com-
menced?—Yea, I have.
Did not he tell you he came her to be examined ?—He did.
When did you see Maguire last ? saw him last night.
Nt
May I ask your rank in the coasts Lary?—Head constable.
You are not an officer then ?—No.
Pray, where are you stationed?—ln Ballingcollig, about six
miles from Cork.

May I ask what newspaper you take in ?—I take in no
newspaper.
Well, then, what newspapers do you read ?—I am glad to
see any of them.
I suppose you read the Cork Constitution?—Yet.

Did you read an account of the Mallow meeting in any of the
new spapers ?—I will answer candidly ; I did not read any
account of the meeting.- I have no recollection that I did.
Try and remember ?—I cannot recollect. Upon my oath I
do not.

Will you tell ma to-morrow if I meet you ?—I cannot recol-
lect that I did.

Will you swear that you read no account of the meeting in a
sowspaper ?—I will not.
Were you ordered to go to Mallow ?-1 was.
Flow were you dressed ?—I went in regular uniform.
Were you in Mallow the night before ?—I was not. I went
there in the morning.
Did you meet other policemen there ?—Yes.
Were the policemen dressed in uniform ?—They were.
Was Mr. Anderson, the sub-inspector, there ?—He was.
Does not he know Mallow better than you do ?—He does.
What time did you undress ?—I cant say exactly. The
procession was going through the town at the time.

Do you swear the full procession was going through ? I sal
a part was going through. The last part of it.
What time did you leave the street to undress?—l was not in
the street then. I undressed in the barracks.
What time of the day did you undress ?.—I should think (ht.
sitating) about I cannot exactly say.
You are very precise about the words Mr. O'Connell used.
What time did you put on the disguise ?—Was it -one o'clock.
It might be aboutone o'clock.
Was it one o'clock ?—lt might be more. I think it Wu
between one and two.

Did you see the whole of the procession ?—I don't know that
I saw the whole of it. I saw half of it.
What half did you see ?—The last half.
Where did you see it ?—I saw it going out of Mallow.
Are you a constabulary man ?-4 am.
You have fought no battles ?—No.
Oh ! then you are not a military man, you are a civil man.
Now, you have said the procession marched in military or-
der, with bands playing, colours flying—are these words your
own ? Are they your own spontaneous effusion ?—Yes.
Were you not frightened by this military array, close columns
and marching order ? —No.
What tunes did the bands play ? Did they play " Paddy Cs'
rey," or " Paddy frim Cork," or " God save the Queen
I took no notice.

This was not a military procession?—No, a civil one.
There were bands of music and banners ?—I saw a great
many banners.

What do you mean by the horses being in apparently particu-
lar good order—were they fat ?—That would be good order.
Now, what became of the guns and muskets, the cannon,
the dead and wounded of this battle ?—.There were none at all.
The horsemen were mounted five or six a-breast, and more
after them.

Are you sure the horses' tails we:•re not tied together ?
Were there real living men on them?-.—'There were.

And wo nen behind the men ?—Yea, on pillio;;:
.Nov. tell us, did they charge you or you charge then 2-4
did neither.

Had the women their arms about the men?—They weft
holding on.

Noss7, I have to ask a question suggested by Mr. Hatehell.
D ) you conceive that an offence against the arms order
(Great laughter.)
So, with music playing and banners flying, and wanes
with arms round the men, they marched out of Mallow ?—•
Yes.

Were there no children there ?—lt would not be a plan for
them in the crowd. -

Were the bands temperance bands or timperaneo ?—I (141
not understand timperance.
I beg your pardon. I assure you I mean no impeachment
on your moral character. I wish to know do you think it
better that the people should amuse themselves playing music!
or drinking whiskey ?—lndeed, Sir, I prefer the former.
Why, you know in either case they are prosed, goocungtia
via, as we lawyers say.—(Laughter.)
Did you make any report of this battle ?—I made ao report,
I took no note.

How, then, do you recollect Mr. O'Connell's speech?-
Because I took a great interest in hearing Mr. O'Connell speak.
Are you a Repealer? You took a great interest in Mr.
O'Connell's speech, you say 2-1 was glad to listen to a good
speaker.
You had better wait a little, then, and hear Mr. Hatchell
and the rest here ?—I would be glad to hear gentlemen of
eminence.

How did you take a note of the pause? Are you not to
allow a pause in speaking ?—Certainly, Sir.
I wish to know how, because it is odd a witness yesterday
said Mr. O'Connell paused?—l took no notice at all.
Mr. O'Connell told the people to come armed with the Re•
peal card ?—Yes.
. .

• Now, when you heard the word armed did not you nudge
the man against you ?—I was nudging him to get on as quick
as I could.
He said the sergeants in France got promotion—you cocked
your ears at that ? Now, do you not expect to be promoted W
the office of Head-constable when the trial is over ? I hate I
a great respect for the constabulary, and like them in any OW
racter save witnesses ? That is for the Inspector-General.
Well, the Inspector-General it a reasonable man, and don't
you think it reasonable that a useful, active man like you should
be promoted ?—lt is reasonable.—( Laughter).
So Mr. O'Connell said when we got it (Repeal) the labourers
would be farmers, the farmers gentlemen, and the gentlemen stil
Lords?—There will be no commoners then.—(Laughter).
You will be a Lord yourself—(Laughter)—Lord Bailin-
collig ?—( Great laughter, in whick the whole Court save OA
Attorney-General joined).—He said so.
Tell me now, which is all this treason, conspiracy, sedition,
or flat burglary ?—(Continued laughter).—l never joke when
I am on my oath.
There was a country fellow on the platform, who told a Per:
son in the crowd, whom you did not see, to be gone, no
creating a disturbance ?—I did not know what he might be
doing.
You have idle times in the north, I think ?—lt is very sin-
gular, the less I have to do the better I like it.--(Laughter.).
Now did you not say you never joked when on your oat)lf
—That is, really, no joke Sir.—(Loud laughter.)
You were not much pressed on that day ?—lndeed I wet
by the crowd.—(Continued laughter.)
Why you are joking again : but there was nothing WO
to incommode you—your whiskers were not pulled 7—The
crowd was very great.
Were there ladies and gentlemen among them ?,..Neither.
Did you dine comfortably that day, and had you a got*
bed ?—lt was pretty hard.—( Laughter. )
When did you leave Mallow ?—That evening.
When did they ferret you out as a witness ?—.About the
month of December.

Are there any respectable people in Mallow ; any proprie•
tors in the town ' • shopkeepers or landholders near it ?—Plentl•
Why, then have they pitched on you, a policeman, who
escaped to tell of your imminent hair-breadth Hope from the
scene of slaughter ?—(Laughter.)—l was sent here.
Now, Sir (here Counsel addressed the witness in a tone of
the most dramatic gravity, amid the roars of the whole Cour°
sincerely trusting you may speedily obtain that prelneti°,ll
which you so richly deserve, I have to wish you a very rem
morning!
Re-examined by Mr. Brewster—Mr. Anderson was near 60
place of meeting. He was in the Court-house, and could net
hear what was said.
The witness then withdrew.

The next witness called was Henry Godfrey, police con,
stable. He was examined by Mr. Freeman--1 was a eon•
stable in August. I remember the 6th of August. I wee
in Baltinglass on that day. I was stationed at Donerd. 16
is about eight miles distant from Baltinglass. I was ordered
to Baltinglass the evening before the meeting. The Sleeting
took place on Sunday. I saw a great number of persona
there between twelve and one o'clock. I observed persona
coming in on large waggons :from the Rathvilly side. Thel
had a band with them. I saw Winer!. I did not observe
any inscriptions. The meeting was held a little ouundo
the town. I saw the Rev. Mr. Nolan before the meeting `Tr
place. I heard him desire the people to go and meet ;
O'Connell. I heard a man say the shouting will frighten tbv,
pigeons. Another said, " Yes, and the Protestants to('
This was before the Rev. Mr. Nolan desired the people t..PI
to meet Mr. O'Connell. I was dressed in plain dress. Jur:
Mr. O'Connell came in about one o'clock. I heard a man 511
" This is the day that will frighten Saunders." A gentleman
named Mr. Robert Saunders lives about two English 1113.1
from the town. The expression was made before Mr, O'Cou/
nell came up.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—When did you make the memorandum 00
of which you are reading ?—On the day the meeting wd
over. _ _

To Mr. Freeman—l attended the place of meeting ; I Mr' H"lt
Mr. O'Connell, there, and Mr. Nolan, Mr. Farrell, and
Copeland ; I saw the two Metcalfs there, and a person 110
was pointed out to be Mr. Steele ; I would know Mr. Steele's
person (the witness here identified Mr. Steele who was sitting
near him in Court). Mr. O'Connell was there also ; be re-
collected him saying that he did not despair of getting the Re''
peal, for he had the people to back him ; he also said there were
some millions of money sent out of the country ; he did not
say how much ; he stated that the taxes were to be paid 011`
of some fund; he heard him say something about Lord Wick;
low ; he heard him call Mr. Felton a " bog-trotting agent ;
does not recollect that he heard him say anything more.
Did you hear Mr. O'Connell say anything about meeting the
people again?
Mr. Fitzgibbon objected to the question. Mr. Fretful°
had no right to be leading the witness this way.
Mr. Freeman—Did you hear him say anything about tithes
Mr. Cantwell said—Really in justice to my client I Ines
interfere ; this is not fair.
Chief Justice—You must not interrnpt the Court, Air'
Cant 11.
Mr. Cantwell--1 roust, and hope I shall do my duty, ul
Lord, and I hope your Lordship will do yours.
Chief Justice—The Court will do its duty, and if yon inter,
rupt it again you will be removed forthwith.
Mr. Cantwell—l am satisfied that the Court will do it°
duty, but I must bring under its notice an illegal question.
Chief Justice—lt is not your duty to address the Cour"
when you have Counsel to do so.
Mr. Freeman—Do you recollect that Mr. O'Connell la,l`!
anything more?—He said when he came again he hoped all I.oe
people would be there to meet him. He heard the people 416°,.
say that th ey, would get the Repeal, now they were all lobe
and determined men. He saw Mr. Lawless, a Roman Cacho'
lie clergyman there. He heard him say that tithes would ~lb
done away with. He talked about going to Dublin, and said
the Protestant clergymen were civil, and would join him, t",,e ,1(
would get the tithes during their lives. He could not say "'re
many people were there. He was in a crowd, and there were
a great number of people around him. He was not alone, then
was sometimes another man with him, and sometimes not.
Cross-examined by Mr. Fitzgibbon—Were you a strange'
in 13altinglass?—No. I had known it ten or eleven year'
You were very well known there as a policeman?--Yes'
How long have you been a policeman ?—Tvrelve years. .0,
Were you all that time in Baltinglass ?—I was not. I "
stationed eight miles from it.
At this meeting you were not molested ?—No. on
No expression w as need painful to your feelings ?—One
said, " This is the day that will frighten the pigeons,
Baltinglass dialect, policemen.)
There was ne attempt to remove yon from the crowd?'"
No.

No ampt to oy j
ou inury ?—No.
You might kaTde got up to the front of the platform if you had
liked ?—Yes.

Like any other person in the meeting ?—The same.
with
Can you tell us the name of any other person that wag
you ?—No. pat
When the observation was made about the "pigeons _tot.
there not some one who replied, " and frighten the Protes
too ?"—Yes.

You plainly beard him ?—Yes.
Were you within a yard of him?—Yee.
Did you do anything 2—No.
Did you know the person or ever see him ?—No. ttiv
What sort of man was 'he ?—tie appeared to be a c°
tryman.
Then you cannot name any person who heard that /Wel'
sion besides yourself ?—No. t the
You cannot name any person wbo was about you
time ?—I cannot. There we millions of people about ":,
(Langlater.)—l made it my business to keep oat of the If"
all_people who I thought would know me. ode.'
Then you mean to say that during that day you e .01
Toured to avoid the eyes and notice of those who knew
—I did.
What did you do to avoid the eyes of those who knew lethor
I would shift from any place when I saw them into Ite°

part of the crowd.
Lest the shoul see you ?—Yes.
Did y y that expect that shuffling forward to another Or!!! lintel
crowd, would prevent, your being seen by those I"'

you ?—I did. .
Did you dip your head?—No.
Did you hide your head ?—No. was t°
Then, what you did when you saw an acquaintance, ugh
shift your way through the crowd ?—I worked my way thro_o
the crowd with my face up. I endeavoured to make 1113.
through them.
Did you find any place in the crowd when looking sr°°na
you, you could not see any wen who knew you ?—I did. t of
Where was that ?—ln front of the platform ; I can" ads,
in
sHomoteetl,imwebsiebit
ism about
tbaemtielen
fryoamrdßs
a;bliitivgaias
how- far that was from the platform; perhaps twen
ty j
earl
the
words, t, This is the day when we'll frighten Saundearsztot
cannot tell the name of man, woman, or child, that he,r_jaht
phrase; I was close to the man who said these words; 107 7,,k
have seized him; 1 cannot tell you who he was; I did odai ; I
his name ; I recorded the phrase on paper the same
when Ibes
.„ i
front of