The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-03 00:00:00

judge, clerk, or bailiff, for which they could claim all hill
time arid do away with fees altogether. He knew
the irfluence that had been used out of doors about his
Bill.--(Hear, hear.) Why, he had been 'tracked on
way down to the House, and had had his coat 9103()9$
pulled off, by certain persons who wished to influence •
hire!--(Hear. hear.) Yes, and he knew that other Wl'
?,lembers had been served in the same way. But let
them li:sve no such influence in that place. 'rhe Wu--
wanted to have justice—cheap, efficient, and f such 6
sort that the world would believe it to be justice. Ile
denounced the people who had treated him and the
House of Commons in such a manner. He had llofd
—ant ho was determined to mention it—Hon. Gentle' •
men say that their livelihood as barristers depended on
the vote they should give that night. What had lb:
louse to do with the statea:ent of barristers or attorneY7'
who were locking cut for business anti for office in
way ? (Hear, hear.) it was disgraceful to the 100
„4
of C: mmons mid to the country to be ass,iled-in 0,;..0 Pt
ama user. Let them try the experiment of oxt4ndl-
the Bill to 501. Why could not justice be got with°u

any graduat d sca,:e of fees?—(!:ear, hear.) to •
Sir G. GREY said it should be known, in justice
the judges, that they had not the remotest interest let
the question before the House. When the Act was first
introouced they had been paid by fees, as Off 'nee •
amount ef duty was not ascertained, but eventually the
fees Were commuted for salaries, and the judges weir
given to understand that their whole time should be;
voted to the court. The Parliament fixed their retisniet
at a maximum of 1 2000., but the Government bad ~r 1;
thought fit to go to the full ex,ent, and gave theta
I.oooi, u year, so that if soy necessity arose for it, "r
iticrea,e of 200/ yr at,nual could still ► e made to the •
Varies. The clerks store also paid by fixed sidariePe 5'
far as practicable; but a difficulty had arisen
eases in fixing the exact amount on which their
should be commuted, which would, however, he ber-` • •
be got over.
Mr. ROIAUCK—But I want to kcow, if you buY
whole time of the judge, why de you not buy the orb°
time of the bailiff ? 0
Sir G. GREY—So far as practicable, that had bee
done also; but it would require a long statement to it
plain all the difficulties in the way. Some bailiff; b 4,
bean appointed for districts, some for portions a ,
tricts; in some cases two had been appointed, so that
was impossible at once to commute their fees foritapns.
fixed salary, as had been the case with the ja,u.,kbe
When tie commutation took' place, the clerks svoutu,lo,
xpected to plaCe all their time at the disposal ai
court.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK and the M.
TORNEY-GENERAL, a
Lord DUNCAN said that nothing had ever
him greater regret, since he had a seat in that
than the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman-(s'f b.'
Grey) had taken respecting this Bill. He believed the hig
ballifyi would be entitled to some higher retttuneratier;...,
because they were responsible for the property inSiheat
charge, and were liable to actions if it was lost. vi "1-0
had fallen from his Hon. Colleague (Mr. Roebuck) 354,
the payment of clerks by fixed salaries was well trot

the attention of th" in'
Mr. AGLIUNBY gave his cordial support to the Pr
ciple of the Bill, which he took to be the relief of o°';
debtors frvria the courts of common-law and Chancerc";
He adinitia4 that tf e'llon. Get.thitqdf tied 'lull* !art
followed. the princip/e of t4ei', .it
be hoped thatPthe Giwornment;:wealci adoptotbe.V.4lo
Pr.) i;1-g,those wllolabOuted,4 -and. troee-'uther. Oa tra.
oO7e, he thciught that tht IlouSe atickthe.coptrX),V,
deeply indebted to the Hon. Gentleman w'fill
duced the present Bill. If it passed into a law it
produce many beneficial results, and he did not LIPP*I.cI
heed that any of the predictions which they had
from the Hot.. Alderman would fulfilled. It vviis "Jo
ficu;t to suppose that any one could deny the failliety
and ex' ediency cf enabling the poorer classes of socteg,
to obtain justice without loss of time or waste of rac'n-„sl
It was also very clr,ar that if they imposed additi°,:el
duties upon the judges or the officers of those courts tut;
ought nor to refuse those gentlemen additional reulu.i,st
ration. One of the oldest and best economists in 'for
House—he meant his Hon. Friend the Memt°' p.
Montrose—had often said that though he would P°)„.au
man for doing nothing, yet he would not expect EinY

to labour without adequete ieward. oP'
Mr. COCKBURN hop; d that the Hon Member bed
polite would not persist in the scale of fees that h°
sae
proposed. According to that scale, suitors would .
to pay larger r sums in the county courts than in of
pertor courts of common law. He thought the ebie" or
the House should is not only to secure for the PO,
man speedy justice, but also cheap justice ; it root
therefore, much to be complained of that the Chane`of
of the Exchequer should pocket out of the e°ll,ber
courts as much as 30,0001. a year. That, or any to.
tax on the administration of justice, was surely o°'
be borne. to
Mr. FITZROY, being loth to proceed control to
the declare: opinion of the House, rose to acted be
the proposition made by the Attorney-General ;
wished, however, to observe that if 00 ~ 'so
the clerks upon fixed salaries, and if they £OO peals
present average of fees, nothing would be more "-feet
then to lease those sulrries withote: increase iu the %or
of increased labour being imposed upon those funoti ate
ries; for example, adding the insolvency cases i°teir
count' y, and the charitable trusts, besides the 501. el. the
sion. Under present circumstances very few 'mit
judges practised at all, and scarcely any witbia
to
own districts. Then there was a further injustice 'Pig
the fees. The salaries of the judges were ge?efoor
1,0001. a year, the average of their fees was 1,4000 d De
was the surplus seized on by authorities who 131 f the
right to appropriate it? The travelling expense6,°..if
►
judges were very considerable, often absorbing m" the
year's salary at a time, which imposed on some °folio,
judges the unseemly practice of running up lovgrebea
and leaving them for a considerable time unpaid. :
the sums granted for travelling expenses were ton 117 i 0
15s. a day was by no means sufficient. An attorneit
the most severely taxed bill of costs was allowed i that
day. With such an allowance it could not be said 0
those judges were able to travel on as good a fontintast,
ordinary commercial travellers. There was ert",ielo
point which he wished to notice, namely, the suing j 0
before a suitor could proceed; at present it we' ..40 21
the 1/. Now, he thought it ought to be lowered iv
per cent. Having said so much he should withdlw
Opposition to the amendment. g 60°
Sir G. GItEY said that when the maximum wia. 00
at 1,2001. it was not inseaded that in every case tui", cotoe
was to be paid. When the duties of the jadgeseoelar
to be increased it would be time enough to °owe
what further sums they should receive. Hitherto vese°
had not been the least difficulty in obtaining the etaer be°
or able men at the present salaries. If it show „ter
out, under the present Bill, that the.. fees were gaud le
than was sufficient, the Government would be boo.ii to
give the suitors the benefit, and not unnecesssrloooo
augment the fees. The allowance to the county 15g' e
judges for personal expenses when travelling wag wher°
day and their railway fares, or is. 6d. mileage. Mein
there were no railways. This was the allowance Pneoso
officers of the army, and it amply covered every
to which those gentlemen could be subjected. ede;
Mr. CARDWELL said that the Right Horn eesoiee
man (Sir G. Grey) would have the power of iner t o°.
the salaries of these judges, and Parliament ouglisighs
to interfere with his discretion and compel the' be
Hon. Gantleman to increase these salaries, whetid
be
thought it expedient or not. Such a course We'„
equally nuorecedented and improper.—(Hear.) ftbel°
Mr. ROEBUCK said 1,0001 a year to maul literY,A,
gentlemen would be a groat god.send—(Leegit ps'"A
and with that sum they would be exceedingly we tb,,
Ifoa any case a larger sumshould be necesserli'll hie
Right lion. Gentleman opposite had the power „,ilfee
own band cf making an addition. Let the C°l3:;-el 01;
look at the carceof the assistant barristers in "e it
bete
They exercised civil and criminal jurisdiction, ejf
labours were much more heavy than. those were thell
be under this Bill. And what was the amount °, ser'
salaries? 400/., besides which they received 100 a
0, le
vising barristers. He would suppose their fe oufo'
amount to 500/. more. If a salary of 1,0001. welsoe se!
cient for the discharge of their duties, he did"
why a larger sum should be paid here. Let L,11,43,„ 0°13,1
not listen to any appeal to sentimentality. 1"tos. 004'
Member for Lewes talked of travelling expeneee9;l°o°./
ing to 500/. a year. Why a person could tray'
London to Carlisle for less than 31.- The statetnen
perfectly outrageous.--(Hear.) t/ePefl
el
Mr. HUME said he understood the Hon. Geprigio
agreed to abandon the schedule, and that the ° cooe„;
scale of
.fees would stand. He trusted that tbe of
reitt..e would at once proceed With' the other Pert'
B•
ee
•Thw amendment 9f the Attorney-General w - ,11
the
agreed to. the
Mr. HUME understood that the principle 0-..ejav-ii
was, that the fees would be so varied sue 'Aide
that no portion of them would go into the Cons'
„Ot,
Fund. to- le
Lord D. STUART did not see any disposition t, 010
economy, on the part of her Majesty's Governoiera,oo,o
respect to county courts. He thought the VI by
might safely be dispensed with, and did not see itiOoi
duty should not be performed by the clerks, 1411°:tbe
cases, had ample time for that purpose. .132'Coarigf
was, that as the treasurers were paid out of the tberto;
dated-Fauti; a- large amount of patronage Reaping tl'
pieced in the hands of the Government. Beilet;tge,
the Bill would be beneficial to the country --eon ti"
was most anxious that it should pass almost 131 0
terms, with as little delay as possible. a OP of
Sir G. GREY said that be had already stain but
clerks and bailiffs would be paid not by fcel!„et d6'
salaries, which would be fixed as soon as sufficl"of
could be obtained. of 501. of
Mr. COCKBURN did not think a salary 0160 0,
100/. a year sufficient remuneration for stic,4 tte.tef'oeal
persons as that from which the clerks ought tee° pay P"to
Besides, as the sums paid to them were frequ'ibell2„hoo
by instalments, it would be necessarrilara. 'Pito
keep an office for the transaction of busirlei,"" bad,ol,
with respect to the judges. At present they covoe
opportunity of practising professionally t°.,,0re0.;00
derab:e extent; but if these courts should r;•
she o
cheractsr which he hoped they would assume, tome 'o'
would be fully (-Jumped, and it would savour 50 orig'ot
of injustice to limit the salary to the ati3outifilaecittei
ally fixed. The mettJr ought to be left in the the 'O,
the Government, whe, he trusted, would select f
officers they could get at the smallest ansonet,
aeration consistent with the discharge of the,r for oi
Jr. HUME thought it would be better aelb'so
Government net to act hastily with rege.rd et:esse
erta.e of salaries. It was much easier to je",„itOq 9'
to reduce them. The Noble Lord seemed rsj
Pc
that the Government had exercised a gre't 'pet tbeeier
trunage in the•eppointreent of treasurers, b tre-of
WV, that although they might have nominated beg°
fee for each of the 60 courts, only nine lie
ss
pointed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. AGLIONBY understood the Horne Ssefer:r-e-:..eoilleir
say that the Government had no intention 0" otiv
in cone tbe
tee salaries of the county courts' jukes '-;,001)
of the increased duties propoia (Ai ilea"'