The Sun.
London, England, 1868-06-26 00:00:00

ITitPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS-LAST EVENING.

The moving of the second reading of the Established
Church (Suspensory) Bill in the House of Lords, this
evening, attracted a very large attendance of peers.
The space at either side of the house was
thronged, and the galleries around the house
were filled with very elegantly-dressed ladies, and
the benches occupied by the bishops, there baing no less
than 18 of these dignitaries present. The task of moving
the second reading was undertaken by Earl Gran-
ville, who rose as soon as the hour for public
business arrived, at which time the attendance on the
Government site showed that a most determined opposi-
tion was about to be given to the motion. The interest
created by the motion for the second reading was not con-
fined to the two great political parties in the house; but
the anxiety amongst the public to obtain admission to the
Strangers' Gallery was quite equal to anything that has
occurred for some years.

The Loitu CHANCELLOR took hia seat on the Woolsack
at five o'clock.

ESTABLISHED CHURCH (IRELAND) BILL.
Earl GRANVILLE, in moving the second reading
of this bill, said it was not the first time he had proposed
a measure of importance to their lordships, and certainly
not the first time that it required all his
energies to perform the task. No one was more aware
than himself of the skill which the noble earl whD had
proposed an amendment couli bring to the matter,
and he had no doubt that the noble earl would
lay down the most repugnant arguments, and also that
similar ones would be laid down by the noble and learned
lord on the Woolsack. (Hear.) The attack in Canada
and in this country with regard to Fenianism had
filled the public mind with great horror. Since,
however, the passing of the Emancipation Act, Ireland
had improved in a social, a political, and a moral
sense, doubtless partly due to a milder sys-
tem of legislation. The present bill had found
favour with a large number of persons in Ireland, and it
was the duty of the Government to provide remedial mea-
sures for the benefit of the community in that country.
Lord Mayo had said with regard to Reform that there ought
to be given to Ireland also primary education and several
other important institutions. With regard to the Church
of Ireland, the noble lord went into longer details. He de-
precated the whole measure, and proposed further delay.
He would not object to an alteration, but not at once. He
also did not object to all Churches being made equal.
He (Lord Granville) believed that alteration would be

. _
most satisfactory to the majority of the House of Commons,
and also to their lordships house. He was aware that expla-
nations had been made with regard to the change in the
Irish Church, and he believed that it was tho duty of the
Opposition to take the course they had done ;

and in the first instance it was shown that her

3lajesty's Government did show some disposition
to assist the Irish people ; and, secondly, it was the duty
of the Opposition to bring in some bill which would
assist them. He was strongly for party Government, but
at the same time to adopt any principle that one did not
believe was dishonourable, but to adopt a great prin-
ciple and adhere to it was most honourable. (Hear, hear.)
He regretted very much a speech made by a right rev.
prelate the other day. He did not complain of the speech,
but he did feel hurt that mean motives should be im-

puted by him to those who differed from him, and
he did think that on reflection he must have felt
that he was wrong. He had two thoughts in his mind
when thirty years ago he entered the House of Commons;
one was the indefensible position of the Irish Church,
and the other the thought that he should never see during
his political career the change which he now was
so glad to perceive would be likely to eventuate.
The task of dealing with the disestablishment of the Irish
Church was at last undertaken by the Opposition. A
number of resolutions wore submitted to the other house,
and he need not inform their lordships that they were
carried after a most severe and animated debate, the
Government being on each of the divisions left in very
large minorities. The present bill was the result of the pass-
ing of those resolutions. He felt that the passing the bill
would be attended with the greatest possible bene-
fits, and he could not think that any one having
the best interests of Ireland at heart should make a despe-
rate effort to retain that which was against the feelings
and wishes of a large majority of the people of Ireland.
There was, according to the last return, not 700,000
Anglicans in Ireland, and yet they had upwards
of seven millions of Roman Catholics excluded
from the benefit of an Established Church. That
statement does show that the bill is most just. With re-
spect to the position of the Roman Catholic clergy he
might say they were mostly poor. In conclusion, he ap-
pealed to the house, by at leastallowing the bill to proceed
to a second reading, to show its readiness to give the mea-
sure its grave consideration.
Lord GREY justified his taking from the hands of the
Government the task of moving that the bill should be
read that day six months on the ground that it was desir-
able this should not appear a mere party vote. His own
belief had ever been that the existence of the Irish Church
was a gross injustice ; but he thought the present proposi-
tion to suspend the filling up of ecclesiastical vacancies
was not the right mode of remedyingthat injustice or even
of carrying out the end proposed by the advocates of the
present measure. Ho argued that machinery which at
present did not exist in the Established Church, and which
this bill did not attempt to provide, ought to be first
created with reference to the disposal of the property,
which—fol instance, the proceeds of private munificence
—it was conceded on all hands must be left to the
Episcopal Church in Ireland. The present proposed
course was unjust and needlessly offensive. What was
not to be done was explained, but not what was to be
done. Still further, he complained of the policy by which
a measure of this kind, which it was especially expedient
to reserve for calm deliberation, had been made the occa-
sion of a great party fight, and he vehemently deprecated
the advocating its acceptance by appeals to the fear of
Fenianism. This vast and difficult question, which in-
volved the gravest religious changes, could be settled only
by a compromise between different parties, or by doing
way with all religious endowments. He was himself in
favour of a compromise, for he was convinced that reli-
gious peace, which ought to be the object of any measure,
would certainly not be furthered by throwing the minis-
ters of religion wholly on the liberality of their congrega-
tions. But he regretted the introduction of the bill, par-
ticularly as forcing the Government to make up their
minds hastily, and thus tending to raise an additional ob-
stacle to the final settlement of this question, which he
was of opinion did require speedy settlement by well-con-
sidered and thorough legislation.

Lord MALMESBURY, after expressing his surprise
that the Resolutions of the House of Commons had not
been, in accordance with precedent, communicated to their
lordship's house before this bill was flung upon their table,
and dwelling upon Mr. Gladstone's inconsistency, as
proved by his own speeches and letters to his constitu-
ents, went on to argue that the present bill was really no
partial measure, but in effect covered the same ground as
the first Resolution of the House of Commons. The de-
struction of the Irish Church Establishment was indeed

the real question now at issue, and he failed to see or to
find from declarations, extracts from which he read, by
leading Roman Catholics, such as Archbishops Cullen and
Manning, the necessity or use of such a result as a
cure for the alleged grievances of Ireland. This mea-
sure was, moreover, a first step to disestablishmont ge-
nerally. Mr. Gladstone might deny this, but who, if he
came into office, would be among his colleagues ? In par-
ticular he claimed sympathy with the Establishment now
assailed as an institution which existed for the benefit of
the poor, and appealed to those Dissenters who were said
to be in favour of the bill to reconsider a measure which
would overthrow a bulwark of Protestantism. He con-
cluded by reading copious extracts from Lord Plunkett and
others in favour of Church Establishments.
Lord CLARENDON showed that Lord Grey had for-
merly used a very different tone from that of his speech
that evening. On the merits of the question, he argued
that if we had a tabula rasa to fill up we should never at
this date think of erecting such an institution as the
Irish Establishment, and that there was no sufficient
reason for our not removing it now if it were an injus-
tice. What a scandal it must be in the eyes of un-
friendly foreigners might be imagined from criticisms, to
which he referred, by friendly foreigners. Ho called for
the measure as required by the feeling in Ireland of a
grievance. This reform would not at once cure rancour,
the growth of centuries, but it would be a step in that di-
rection, and, indeed, whatever its expediency, it was de-
manded by our conscience. The Liberal party had been
taunted with not having brought forward this question
when in office. If they had, they would have been re-
viled as traitors. But the Conservative party had passed
through a process of development 311:1C0 then. After re-
viewing and disposing finally of the several objections to
the bill, he lamented its rejection, which he anticipated, as
Niel' because ho foresaw the acceleration which it would
lend to feeling on this special subject as from regard to its
effect upon the reputation of that House, which it was pe-
culiarly important to maintain in view of the coming
House of Commons.
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said that he had
always been a supporter of Catholic Emancipation, but he
denied the justice or expediency of concessions like that
now demanded. It was the land question which engrossed
eviusive interest in Ireland.
Lord DERBY, who began by apologising on the ground
of infirm health, but spoke with great animation, after
criticising the conduct and motives of Mr. Gladstone,
denied the moral competency of Parliament to carry such
a measure of spoliation as had never been accomplished,
except in the case of the monasteries, against ecclesiasti-
cal property in this country. If a certain length of
possession gave a title to private property, prescription
reaching far beyond the Reformation ought surely to
insure tranquil possession to the Church of Ireland,
unless indeed the old maxim, Nullum tempus occurrit
Ecclesite, must be read liackwards. On the principle
on which this bill was supported, the property of
tha vat, City Ccaipanieg; might ba equally cor,ifiz-