The Sun.
London, England, 1868-05-01 00:00:00

Ph ICle 9d.
STA I.IPt,L,

that evening he should now occupy the attention of the
house but a • very fow minutes. Ho thought. the matter
had been virtually decided when the motion was car-
ried for going into committee, and that the gentlemen
who now occupied the Treasury Bench were not,
in fact, the governing power of the county, but that they
were in truth the Opposition. (Hear.) It could not be said
that. the result of the division was owing to the assistance
of either the Irish or Scotch members, it was a majority
composed of all parties, English, Irish,and Scotch.
(Hear, hear.) If the division list was referred to
it would be found that 210 English members voted for the
proposition of the right hou. gentleman the member for
South Lancashire, and Dilly 212 Tier her 'Majesty's
Government. (Hear.) Thera were 37 Scotch members
for and only 13 against going into committee, and with
respect to the Irish members there were 51 against and
only 45 in favour of the procrastinating policy of the
Government.
After a long discussion,

Mr. GLADSTONE rose, and afl er remarking on the ex-
traordinary reluctance of Mr. Disraeli to take part in the
debate, went on to point out that it had turned upon ex-
traneous points, and that no one had attempted to defend
the Irish Church on its merits. But this was not surpris-
ing, for it never had and never could discharge the duty of
an Establishment-t-it never had been nor could be more
than the Church of a fraction': Reminding the house that
two policies bad been submitted to it—one of procrastina-
tion, the other of htmediate action—for neither side denied
that the present state of things was unendurable—he

ointed,out that Mr. Diseaeli's —plan of juiot endowment
ad been repudiated by membeis of his own Cabinet and
by his followers. Ho declined distinctly to answer Mr.
Walpole's questions referring entirely to the details of a
measure which could only be brought in by the Executive
Government, and as he had not lightly undertaken the
task, and should not shrink from any responsibility in
connection with it, he would not peril a great public inte-
rest by stepping now beyond the province of a private
member. It was sufficient to say that the object of the
motion was to do an act of justice to Ireland. Comment-
ing on the charges of "conspiracy" he remarked that had
time permitted it would be easy to prove that the Church
party, which was represented to be plotting for this mea-
sure of disestablishment, was at the very moment work--
4,g for Mr. Disraeli. But the supporters of the mo-
tion claimed to be in spontaneous alliance with the
party all over the world 'which was striving to
break down the system of religious ascendancy.
(dear.) . Discussing the objections to the Resolutions,
he declared, with reference to the danger to the
Church of England, that there was no reasonable
ground for fearing it would be injuriously affected, for
to remove a bad establishment was not to weaken a good
one. As to the time there were three grounds for moving
in the question now. Public opinion bad made a remark-
able advance ; the Government themsAves hal opened the
question of the religious condition of Ireland ; and the

third reason was tbo state of Ireland itself, where peace
was only secured by the exercise of the overwhelming
power of England. To the objection that disestablishment
would alienate the Protestants, ho protested warmly against
the
.doctrine of exclusive loyalty, fed by exclusive privi-
leges, and applying the exp3rienco of our colonial admini-
stration, lie predicted that a policy of equal justice would

develop° the "British party" until it included every sane
ail intelligent min in Ireland. Ire criticised next, in
terms of stringent severity, Lord Derby's recent speech,
declaring, amid loud cheers, ;that he for one would not
consent to take the word of commend from. the House of
Lords, and concluded by urging the house, in an eloquent
peroration, to accept the resolution, not as a panacea, but
part of a policy which would add to the strength and glory
of the empire.

Mr. DISRA ELI, who made an unusually brief reply,
commenced by explaining that he had not risen before
Mr. Gladstone because the two previous speakers had
argued on his own side. He objected to disestablishment
—first, because it would be injurious to Ireland by re-
viving old animosities, and he remarked that hitherto no
ground of objection had been taken to the Ch urch but the
abstract assertion that it was unjust to the people of Ire-
land. But he showed that it was not unjust to the whole
people, and, being only a partial injustice, it was not
susceptible of so easy a solution as total. disendowment.
Besides, its abolition might be equally unjust to other por-
tions of her Majesty's subjects. lidobjected to it, too, be-
cause it interfered with the rights of property, and if this
was to be done on the alli,gation that the Church did not

fulfil the purposes for which it was created, the process
-L-qttid,oetr.stop: ;-„„..4 he -pt perty. of •souheleb4lasysea
London compa4l.-Ihahich certainly did not fiiTfil their
original duties, wou!,l ha in danger. It was impossible yet
to predict what public opnion would be upon the ques-
tion ; but the idea of the Royal supremacy—our only se-
curity fur religious I.borty, and a great safeguard of our
civil rights —was deeply engrained in the public mind of
England, and it was upon such considerations as this, and
not on a few local abuses, that the question of an Dila-
blishod Church must be judged. Mr. Disraeli concluded
by explaining, in answer to some complaints made in the
course of the debate, that ho had not used the word "Ro-;
manist" in an offensive sense, and vindicated his statement
as to the combination of Ritualists and Romanists.

Sir F. HEYGATE having withdrawn his amendment,
the Committee divided on the first Resolution, and the
numbers were--
For the Resolution 330
Against it 265

Majority against the Government, 65

The announcement of the numbers was received with,
loud cheers by the Opposition, and when it had died away
Mr. DISRAELI rose and said—The division having
altered the relations of the Government with the House,
it is necessary that we should consider our position, and I
therefore move that the .house at its rising adjourn until
Monday._

The cheering was renewed at this statement, and, when
the other business on tho paper had been disposed of, the
House adjourned at five minutes past 3 o'clock unt'l
Monday.