The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-16 00:00:00

MORNING, APRIL 16, 1644,

Mr. BARING. deprecated their calling for any
account from the House of Lords when they 'were not
prepared to pursue the'rnatter further, lest they should
come into collision on so triging a matter with the
other House.
After a few words from Mr. HUME Eni Mr. WM-
MAMS, the Committee divided on the amendment,
when there appeared—
For the amendment l3
Against it 69
Majority against the amendment —56
Oh our re-admission to the gallery, we found
Mr. HUME on his legs. He was complaining of
a sum of 2,250/. being appropriated for the purpose
of engrossing Bills. He thought that the public had
never yet derived the slightest benefit or convenience
frim the. money thus expended.
Sir ROBERT PEEL =said that if any public
benefit were to be derived,• he thought it would be
a paltry economy to withhold the grant; tout if, on
the otter hand, no actual good arose, he should not
object to any proposal which the hon. Gentleman
opposite might make. He was aware that many
lawyers were of opinion that it was necessary to
render those letters more permanent.
After a few observations from Sir R. Peel, Mr.
Hume, Sir G. Clerk, Mr. Fox Maule, and the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote put was, that a sum not exceeding
55,6001. be granted to defray the salaries and ex-
penses of her Majesty's Treasury.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, the vote was
agreed to.
It was then proposed that 'a sum of 18,7031. be
granted to defray the salaries and expenses of the Se-
cretary of State for•the Home Department.
Agreed to.
A vote of 67,0001. was propoSed to pay the salaries
and expenses of the Secretary of State for Foreign

Affairs.
Mr. HUME said that this vote included an item of
20,0001. for Queen's Messengers, which, in time of
peace, seemed to be enormous, and when, moreover,
there were such facilities of communication not only
in this. but in foreign countries.
Mr. WARI3URTOV expressed himself to a simi-
lar effeet, and said he thought these messengers ought
to travel by railway, which was the safest and most
exp;ditk•us mode of travelling, and by far the
cheapest.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE thought the suggestion
of the Hon. Member deserved the utmost attention.
Mr. HUME said he would oppose the present mo-
tion unles----the Right Hon. Gentleman promised to
lay before the Howse a return showing the journeys
which these messengers performed, and the expenses
to which they were subjected.
Sir GEORGE CLERK did not oppose the return.
The expenses of the messengers were not so great as
in the years 1839 and 1840.—Agreed to.
A vote of 22,1001. was next proposed to defray the
expenses of the Secretary a State for the Colonial
Department.
After a few words from Mr. HUME,
The vote was agreed to.
The vote that the sum of 32,500/. be granted for
the salary and expenses of the Committee of Privy
Council, and the Council of Trade was agreed to
after a short conversation.
2,0001. for the :salary of the Lord Privy Seal was
agreed to
31,686/. was granted to defray the salary and ex-
penses of the office of Paymaster-General.
On the vote that 16,0681. be granted to defray the
salaries and expenses of the offices of Comptroller of
the Exchequer, &c.,
Col. SIBTHORP gave notice that he would take
an early opportunity of moving an address to her
Majesty for the removal of the Noble Lord who now
filled the office, and who was a most useless officer.—
(Great laughter.)—The vote was then agreed to.
2,608/. was voted for the expenses of the State Paper
Office, after a slice:, conversation, at the close of which

Sir. ROBERT PEEL said that the most nem'
facilities were granted to all persons who showed that
they had a reasonable object for their curiosity, such
as the publication of an historical work.
A vote of 3,200/, was then proposed to defray the
expenses of Ecclesiastical Commissions for England.
Mr. HUME thonght this vote ought to be struck
out of the estimates. The Church had funds enough
of its own, and he thought some of those funds ought
to be appropriated to the payment of the expenSes of
these Commissions.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
this vote was for the payment of certain lay officers
whose duty consisted in managing the Ecclesiastical
Affairs of the country.
The vote was then agreed to. •
A sum of 53,0001., to defray the expenses of the
Poor-law Commissioners, was then proposed.
Colonel SIBTHORP objected to the vote. He
thought the Poor-law Commissioners had done no. good
whatever. The duties of the present Commissioners
might easily be performed by six Commissioners, at a
salary of 2,0001. per annum each. He regretted that
the Government- thought it wise to tread in the steps
of the late Government. That Government was very
fond of jobbing, and the Poor-law Commission Board
was one of their jobs. He would be glad to see the
Board of Assistant Commissioners entirely abolished,
and he should therefore move that the vote be reduced
to 18,3341. 6s. 4d.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, in the year
1842, ns compared with the year 1841, a reduction
had taken place in this vote of 5,2331., and in the
present year, as compared with last year, the reduc-
tion was 1,5001. This saving was mainly owing to a
reduction which had taken place in the number of
Assistant-Commissioners. In England, the reduction
had been from 13 to 9, and in Ireland from 11 to 8.
But while he made this statement he would remind
the Committee that if the Poor-law Commission were
to be continued in an efficient state, the reduction
could not be carried farther.
Mr."W. WILLIAMS said the various boards of
guardians had set at defiance the rules and orders of
the Poor-law Commissioners. What therefore,' he
would ask, was the use of those Commissioners.? It
was true that they had threatened to prosecnte some
of the guardians who had refused to obey their orders,
but they had never carried that threat into execution,
and the reason was, that they knew that no jury
would ever give a verdict in favour of such inhuman
rules as those which the Commisioners had issued
for the guidance of the guardians. He would just
for a moment call the attention of the Committee to
the travelling expenses of these Commissioners. It
appeared that a sum of 8701. had been put down for
travelling expenses. Now, he did not believe that this
sum had ever been expended for such a purpose. He
hoped the Hon. and Gallant Member for Lincoln
would persevere in his amendment.
Capt. PECHELL complained of the pensions of
certain persons who had been compelled to go into
workhouses having been withheld from them for six
months after they left the workhouse. He thought
this was unjust, for he believed the laW allowed the
Commissioners to stop the pensions only while the
pensioners remained in the workhouse.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was most anxious to
meet the views of the Hon. and Gallant Member,
as to retrenchment with respect to the expenses of
the Poor-law Commission, so far as they could be
effected consistently with the efficiency of the law. The
Hon. and Gallant Gentlemen must be aware that
the law as it at present existed prevented any altera-
tion in the arrangements dictated by the rules and
regulations of the Commissioners, except those which
were under local Acts. The subject of the poor-law
would be before the House in a short time, when
several alteraticins and modifications would be intro-
duced. With respect to expense of the Poor-law
Commission he had lessened the number of the Com-
missioners. He thought the vote could not be called
too large nor the numbers of those engaged upon the
Commission too many.
Captain PECHELL said, although he would meet
with a kindly spirit the amendments alluded to by
the Right Hon. Gentleman, yet he should oppose any
proposition that tended to give undue influence to the
Commissioners.
After a few words from Sir C. NAPIER and Sir J.
GRAHAM, the vote was agreed to.
Upon the vote being proposed, that the sum of
53,2361. be granted for defraying the expenses of the
Mint,
Mr. EWART urged upon the House the necessity
of coins of a, decimal character being put into circula-
tion, in the same manner as in France and other Con-
tinental countries.
Mr. AGLIONBY said that two years ago the
Oevernment had aenounced the intention of issuing
coins of the value of half a farthing. He should wish
to know if such was their,determination now ? -
• The CHANCELLORof the- EXCHEQUER did
not think the introduction of `a decimal currency
wouldlikAttended with the beffacial‘ effects alluded
to by 1-41;. Gentlemen. opposite:
Mr•V COTT A.-unlit a suAler coinage would be
exceed. , ;.•
• • .
,;•Tartieularly to the humbler
f
Mr;-itt.t.d ,1-4.:Ohilar opinion. He had
been 1414 - ion of twopenny and
threepenny ptecee_ 'still remained of the same
opinion, -and eaw' no reason why the Chancellor of the
Exchequer shohld not institute a coinage so much de-
sired by the country.—The vote was agreed to.
The next vote was, that a sum of 13_,4671. be voted
for the salaries and expenses of persons employed in
the Public Record-office.
After a few words from Coloalel SIBTHORP and Mr
Hums the vote was agreed to.
A vote of 9,7001. was next proposedto defray the
salaries and expenses of the Inspectors and Superin-
tendents of Factories, Mines, and Collieries.
On a vote of 6,4241. being proposed to pay the sa-
laries of the officers and attendants of the household
,of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the sum paid to
" two gentlemen at large,". the meaning of which ex-
pression he did not understand.—(Hear.) He also

objected to the item of 1,574/. for sixteen Queen's
plates to he run for in Ireland. On this latter item
he should take the sense of the House. It was not
right that the people of Great Britain should be taxed
to encourage gambling and horse racing. Ile pro-
posed that the vote should be reduced to 4,8901.
Sir F. TRENCLI said the object of this vote was
not to encourage gambling, but to improve' the breed
of horses —(Hear.)
Col. SIBTHORP said he quite concurred with his
Hon. Friend who had just sat down. They might
call this gambling if they pleased, but where was there
a greater specimen of gambling than the railways of
this country ?—(Laughter.) He thought the object
of this item was a fair and rational amusement. They
might bet, if they pleased, in a church.—(Laughter.)
Mr. HUME said the sole question was, out of
whose pockets money should come for these purposes.
He had no objection to Hon. Gentlemen supporting
these amusements if they chose to do so, but he
thought this vote was wrong in principle.
Mr. MORI,: 01FERRALL supported the vote.
The House then divided, when there appomd—
For, the motion
Against it
Majority for the vote —32
20,4001. was then voted to pay the salaries and ex-
penses of the office of Chief Secretary, the Queen's
Bench, and her Majesty's Privy Council in Ireland.
4,9791. was granted to defray the charges of the
otEce of the Paymaster of the Civil Services in
Ireland.

The sum of 6,2751. was then voted, lifter a brit f
discussion, to defray the expenses of the Board t f
Public Works in Ireland.

The next• vote was 39,2001. for the charges for
'uraign secret service.

Di. BOWRING thought it remarkable that the
same sum for this service bad been askei for three

years past. It had never varied. He suggested that
the sum required for each department• should be
specified.

Sir C. NAPIER thought the last suggestion a
valuable one. As to the amount itself, he looked
upon it as exceedingly small, and only wondered how
the Government could gain their objects at so slight
an expense. . . .

Mi. AGLIONBY complained that the Govern-
ment. took no notice whatever of the remarks which
had fallen from Hon. Members on his side of the
House.
Sir J. GRAHAM observed there was not any
want of attention en the part of Ministers when a
useful suggestion was thrown out. As to the vote
itself, he begged to say, that when he came into office
he found a small balance of this fund had been left by
his predecessor, and that balance still remained un-
touched.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Mr. HUME said the money then must be ex-
pended by the Colonial and Foreign Departments.
Sir G. CLERK—And the Admiralty.
Mr. M. O'FERRALL said there was a rumour
very prevalent in Ireland that members of the consta-
bulary force had been privately employed amongst the
peasantry in Ireland to obtain information on behalf
of the Government, and that they ha,,l gone in some
instances so far as to manufacture reports of crimes
which had never been committed or even thought of.
Sir J. GRAHAM could assure the Hon. Gentle-
man that he was not cognizant of any one instance in
which a member of the police fcrce in Ireland had
been thus employed.
Lord ELIOT said he considered it his duty to
confirm the statement made by his Right lion.

Friend. Having heard of the rumour alluded to by
the Hon. Member for Kildare (Mr. O'Ferrall), the
most rigid inquiries had been instituted by the
order of the head of the Irish Government, and he
(Lord Eliot) could declare most emphatically that no
such proceeding had ever been entered on with the
cognizance of any officer of the police force. If any
person whatsoever in the employment of•the Govern-
ment should be discovered attempting such conduct,
he could assure the House he would instantly be
visited with condign punishment.
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the Government should
give the House some more information as to the ex
penditure of this sum of money.
Sir R. PEEL trusted the House Ntould not press
for such information which it would be most incon-
venient to give.—(Hear, hear.) He could assure the
House there had not been one shilling expended but
for necessary ends, and that there was not the
,lightest ground for constitutional jealousy.
The next vote was 212,3241. for the expenses of
stationery and printing in the several departmemts of
the Government in England and Ireland. The vote
was agreed to after a short discussion.
A vote of 4,9201. was agreed to for the Queen's
printing in Ireland.
A vote of 30,0001. was agreed to, after a short
discussion, to defray the law charges and salary of
the Solicitor of the Treasury.
A vote of 13,3601. was agreed to for loss in gold
and silver coin.

A vote of 150,000/. was then proposed for the pur.
pose of defraying certain charges that had hitherto
been paid out of the county rate.
Mr. GRANGER objected to the vote. Ile thought
that some course ought to be adopted to prevent the
judge exercising the disagreeable duty of acting as
judge and prosecutor. The learned 'judges hal
already refused to adopt so unjustifiable a duty, and
he thought it behoved the House to look to the
subject.
After some observations from Sir J. Graham, Mr.
Christie, Mr. Aglionby, Sir R. Peel, and Mr. Cripps,
Mr. GODSON thought that there were some ad
vantages in the plan, and that the public had value
fur their money.
Mr. lIUME said that if the public could hear what
had just passed they would have a strange opinion of
the manner in which justice was administered. Why
should there not be a public prosecutor ? It an-
swered very well in Scotland; for if they compared
the number of criminals tried and acquitted in Scot-
land with the number tried and acquitted in England,
they would find that where one got off in Scotland
five or six escaped in England, in consequence of the
careless manner in which the committals were
made. The public had no right to be called on
to pay this money ; it began, he believed,
at 70,000/. or 80,000/., and now it was 150,000/. It
was a general taxation of the country, by which the
better regulated parts of the kingdom were made to
pay for those of which less care was taken. Another
objection was, that the Government paid this money,
while it bad not the slightest control over the expen-
diture of it. It might be said that this was done
under the Act of Parliament; but the Act might be
repealed. The measure was one forced on the com-
munity by the country gentlemen, to save themselves
some trouble. If he had proposed any alteration that
would have entailed any trouble on them, he should
have been told the practice had existed from time
immemorial, and could not be changed. But when
they wanted an alteration for their own convenience,
not a word was said about it. Let the expense
of these prosecutions be thrown on the country
gentlemen, who were creating hordes of paupers,
and filling the gaols with criminals.
Mr. CRIPPS did not think the manner in which
the depositions were distributed likely to interfere
with the ends of justice. He did not believe that
many innocent persons were ever committed; he
had defended many prisoners, but he scarcely knew
one with respect to whom he had any strong belief
of his innocence.
Mr. BROTHERTON said, whatever the practice
might be in other parts of the country, he could
state that it was by no means general. He had
attended many quarter sessions in Manchester and
the neighbourhood, and the practice was not adopted ;
he thought it ought to be discouraged. But one mode
by which the county rates might be reduced was to
establish a public prosecutor. The county-rates were
greatly increased by the number of magistrates' clerks
committing persons charged with the most trifling
offences. A prosecution for a theft of an article
valued at 2d. or 3d., would cost a county from 6/. to
8/. He knew a case in which an expense of 81. was
incurred in prosecuting a boy for stealing five apples,
though there was nothing else alleged against his
character. There was a sort of collusion between the
justices' clerks and the police, in order to obtain
these trifling committals, in which the clerk's fee was
frequently 155., 205., or 21. Ha was convinced the
great increase of the public rates arose from matters
of this kind. If her Alajesty's Government appointed
it would be a great saving to the
eprrso._secelitoerar,
was of opinion that when coun_se(lHweaez
rate-payers.
instead of shortening the sessions, they
Mr. KEMBLE thought the vote was a reasonable
no doubt
eomnep.loyleide,
prolongedlsfr.llAiltvwEhsenseaviedr theythat werethe
finesemploy erde.
very small, and the costs were large, but the fines
were frequently small, in consequence of the amount
The vote was,4thcleonLaNgvrase,evdottoe
of the costs.—(Hear, hear.)
A suni,of 18
3 for the Deputyty
Re-
membrancer of
the Exchequer, and other officers cf
the Exchequer.
A sum of 13,0001. was voted to defray the ex-
penses of the salaries of the officers of the Insolvent
Debtors' Court.
On the vote of' 18,586/. for the payment of the
expenses of the prison in the Isle of Wight for juve-
nile prisoners being put,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to several of the items.
There were 510 prisoners, who cost the country
7,520/. The prisoners, it appeared, did not make
more than lld. a head. He should like to know what
could be the nature of their- business which produced
only this sum. He found there were expenses fbr
washing and making fires. The expenses of the
Pentonville prison were still higher. In similar esta-
blishments in the United States the labour of the
prisoners paid all the expenses of the prison. He did
not see why that could not be effected in this country.
The system of solitary confinement had been found