The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-16 00:00:00

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

Mr. EfORSNIAN said that, instead of the motion of
which he had given notice, he should move for the pro-
duction of the proceedings of the Ecclesiastical Commis.
sion relative to the matter of the secretaries.

DISTRESSED UNIONS (IREL tiND)-ADVANCES

• AND REPAYMEN r OF ADVANCES.

The House then went into Committee, end

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to propose certain
resolutions respecting advances and the repayment
of advances to distressed unions in Ireland,
and in doing so said he would endeavour to
spare the Committee the necessity of going into any
deesils on the subject, and confine himself to a state-
ment of general views concerning the state of Ireland,
and the grounds on which the Government thought
it right to propose the resolutions he was about
to submit. For many years the condition of Ire-
land had been lamentable in many respects, but no
remedy of the Legislature could be made applicable
t the evils which existed. A great number of the la-
bouring classes in that country were in the receipt of no
wages, and depending for their livelihood upon the
cultivation of small plots of ground ; a; some
seasons of the year they suffered great distress.
which had produced much crime. Whilst entering into
the policy which of late years bed been adopted, he
would state that the failure of the potato crop and the
consequent famine which had taken place, had produced
evils with which the Legislature had as yet been unable to
deal. An immense alteration had tab en place in the state of
the country, and on one hand it was no doubt gratifying
to find that we no longer have, to any consid-rable ex-
tent, those outrages and murders which were formerly
so prevalent, while, on the other hand there had been
the greatest disposition upon the part of all persons of
property, whether landlords or tenants, to preserve the
lives of the great mass of the people under the pressure
of an awful calamity. This change bad taken place
through no influence of the Legislature, but the interpo-
sition of the Legislature may assist the country
in its present transition state. But in doing so
the Legislature must always he, guarded against two
great dangers—one was not to impose too great burdens
upon the property of Ireland, or the people might be
discouraged from cultivating the soil, and the other not
to assist with too much liberality the poor labourers who
had been deprived of their labour by the failure of the
potato. Having said thus much, he would now proceed to
state what he thought was a fair encouragement to hope
for the future. He haller fire him the reports of a number
cf officers eigaged under the Beard of Works in the
different counties in Ireland, some including
the distressed counties, and, with the exception
of the county cf Clare, they generally bear
testimony t) an increased desire on the part of_the
people to cultivate the land. With respect to two of
these couefe3 which they had heard of as being most
distress( d, the reports state that although there was
much land untenanted, yet there would not he any great
difficult), in procuring tenants at a reduction of 25
per cent on the previous rents. He had likewise reports
with regard to the fisheries, and they all geve very
satisfactory accounts of the visible improvements in the
country. Now, he held in his band a return of the ex-
penses incurred during the f cur last months of last year
including the months of October, November, December,
and January. During October the decrease of 48,0001.,
during November 40,000/., during December 40,0001.,
and in January 7,0004 making a total of about 188,0001.
The return with respect to the relief given
to persons out of doors was much the same, the
whole numbers showing that the reduction of these
persons was in the whole as many as 405,341 during the
same period of four months.—(Hear, hear.) This was
' owing to various causes, for it appeared from the several
reports of the secretaries of the different poor-law unions
that this decrease had arisen partly from a better under-
-standing of the principle of the poor-law, partly from a
desire to decrease expenses, partly from a desire to carry
the law into effect, and an acquired discrimina-
tion in the discovery of imposture.—(Hear, hear.)
The indoor relief had been rather increased. In De-
cember, 1848, it amounted to 14,902/., and in 1849 it
was 18,2061., being an increase of 3,2941.; but there was
a decrease in the outdoor relief, in the month of De-
cember, amounting to 2,8671. The total indoor and out-
door relief had been respectively 297,918/. and
147,397/. That, certainly, so far was satisfactory,
as it showed there was an improvement even
in those districts which were considered the first. Now,
in proceeding to consider this question, he should
state that of the opinions which had been given by various
persons in Ireland from whom they had received reports,
there was none that was more prevalent than the state-
ment, that the burdens arising from the expenditure
on the loan of former years now imposed
such heavy cost on many unions in Ireland,
that although they might be able to bear
the burden that arose from the relief of the poor, they
were not able to sustain at the same time the repay-
ment of the loan. He would now state what had been
the loans which had been made of late years to the unions
in Ireland. Beginning with 1839, the sum of 1,225,000/.
was raised for building workhouses in Ireland, 47,000/.
being allowed to be deducted from li' for mismanagement
in construction of the workhouses. The next public debt
was for labour in the spring of 1846. The sum of
476,000/. bad been advanced, of which 238,0001. was re-
mitted, and the other half spread over 20 half-yearly
instalments. Shortly after 4,850,000/. was advanced,
of which one-half was afterwards spread over 20 half-
yearly instalments iu a similar manner. A sum was ad-
vanced for temporary relief, of which my
953,000/. was
required to be paid; the remainder had been
remitted. In the August of last year an
additional sum was authorised to be advanced
of 60,000/. The sums which were at the present time
due from Ireland were--first, 1,131,000/e—en ad-
ditional sum of 100,0001.—a sum advanced for work-
houses 158,0001.—a sum advanced the 9th of Victoria
2,305,000/.—the sum advanced for temporary re-
lief upwards of 700,000/., amounting in all to 4,483:000/.
There was a proposal made, which had been sanctioned
by an Act of Parliament, to enable the Irish counties to
extend the time of payment over 20 years, upon applica-
tion, end there was also a provision to shorten the
time. Six counties had applied to have the time ex-
tended, and two to have it shortened. The 'tete
of the counties in Ireland was very varied.
While some loans bore interest, there were others ou
which no interest was required, and he proposed that
the same arrangement should be continued—that the
loans which were liable to interest should continue
to pay it, and that those whioh were not should be

exempted from the payment of any. There were other
heavy charges upon some unions, which prevented them
making exertions to provide the necesta,ry workhouse
accommodatioa for the poor, and to give relies to the
destitute. He alluded to the contracts which had
been made during the period of famine for the
supply of goods and clothing to the work-
houses. The unions hid refused to pay the
contractors owing to their impoverished condition, and
the consequence was that in several workhouses
the effects had been seized upon, and the guardians
were obliged to pay 61. per cent. upon the sum
duo, in order to prevent the effects being disposed of.
Now it appeared that these difficulties were mainly owing
to the famine, and if they could be relieved from them
they would be able to begin afresh, and thereby carry
into effect the due administration of the poor-laws.
Such ie the opinion of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners, more esEecielly of Mr. Power, who
is now in this country, who had repeated his
opinion that a little assistance would enable several
unions to build temporary workhouses, and by the ap-
plication of the workhouse test greatly to diminish the
expendit ire. Such belog the case, Government thought
it advisable to propose that there should be added
to the sum already advanced an amount which
would make the total advances amount to the
sum of 4,483,0001. fur the purpose of assisting
the unions and enabling them to discharge their liabili-
ties, and which should be repayable by instalments in
forty years. According to the accounts they had re-
ceived the general debts of the poor-law unions in
Ireland were diminished between September and De-
cember by no less a sum than 100,0001., but the distressed
unions, which were about thirty, had been uraele to
effect any reduction in their liabilities. At the end of
December last the debts, besides those due to the elec-
toral divisions, amounted to 270,0001. ; and the Poor-
la .v Commissioners were of opinion that, if these debts
could be discharged, not only would they be able to carry
on the due administration of the unions, but in some cases
it would enable the Poor-law Commissioners to make
the divisions in accordance with the report of the
Boundary Commissioners, which otherwise they might
not be able to do.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it was
deemed advisable that the unions should be
divided into electoral districts. Some of these
districts bad been already arranged. Eight were in
course of formation, and nine had already been formed.
In these districts it had been reicertairel that the law
had been fully and wisely carried into effect. He would
now state to the House what had been the result of the
formation of these electoral districts upon the popula-
tion. [Sir George Grey here reminded his Lordship of
the reduction of the debt of the unions.] Yes; the
debt of the several unions he had to state was about
270,000 L, which had by subsequent outlay been in-
creased to 370,000/. The whole amount of the debt
of the several unions was 4:783,000/. The em stint
actually required to be liquidated was about 250,0001.,
of which sum about 150,0001. had been de-
frayed, and beyond which about 50,0001. more was
already prepared for payment, being, he believed, now
in the hands of the several guardians. Much cf the
business which had been transacted in these unions had
been concluded under the authority of several of the Acts
of Parliament by which the affairs of the Irish unions
bad been of late conducted.—(Elear.) But he must now
state what was their opinion of the workhouse
test upon the population at laree.—(Hear, hear.)
On the Ist of January last it appeared that in England
and Wales there was about 1 in 15 receiving relief from
the poor-rates, whereas in Ireland. in the mouth of
December, there was only 1 in 27 receiving poor relief.
He therefore thought they should not be acting im-
prudently, but wisely, it they enabled the poor-
law unions in Ire!and to provide themselves still
further with workhouses. Now, therefore, the proposel
he had to make was, in the first place, that the general
sums which had been advanced to Ireland, beginning
with the workhouse h acs in 1839, and going on to the
advances made in 1846 and 1847 and subsequent years,
should, when it was desired, and where the pressure on
the poor. law unions appeared to be mani-
festly great, bc converted into consolidated an-
nuities, and be payable with interest where interest
it; due. The next proposal was, that the sum of
300,010/. should be advanced for the purpose
of enabling boards of guardians, under the
the direction of the Poor-law Commissioners, to
pay off the debts incurred for food and clothing,
during the periods of distress. (Hear, hear.)
There veva now a prospect of Ireland being able to
recover from that very great depression under which she
had long laboured, and to enter upon a new
social career. It was evident, if they were
to look to that state of society which
existed in Ireland from 1768 to 1815, they would
be only looking to the recurrence of misery and blood-
shed, the people being utterly destitute of those means
of comfort to which the civiliz -d nations of Europe were
accustomed. There had not been those sums expended in
farm buildings and in improvements which the landed gen-
try in England and Scotland are accustomed to make by
agreement with their tenants; there had not been that
regularity in the payment of the farm labourers which
ought to be the source of maintenance to them.
Everything there had been dirorder and disorga-
nization. Hence arose those crimes and disorganiz
tion which seemed beyond the power of legislation.
to amend. Those things were not for them to dispose
of, but he (the Noble Lord) hoped that Ireland was ap-
proaehing to that time when society might be constituted
in a better manner, in which landlords, farmers, and
peasantry, would unite to make her a happy and con-
tented country.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord concluded
by moving a resolution embodying the proposition awn-
ciated in his speech.
Mr. F. FRENCH said he could not agree with the
Noble Lord in the discredit which ho had thrown upon
the landlords and truants in Ireland, to whose disunion
ho had alleged many of the evils in the country were to
be attributed. He looked upon the proposition of the
Noble Lord with great suspicion, considering it fraught
with ills fir Ireland, but pregnant with benefits for
England.
Mr. MONSELL represented one of the most dis-
tressed counties in Ireland, and he felt bound to tender
to her Majesty's Government his best thanks for the
course they bad adopted. He differed from the
Honourable Member for Rosscommon, in thinking
that this measure was not a liberal one; he thought it
was greatly so, and that the best thanks of the people of
Ireland were due to the Government for bringiug it
forward.

The Esrl of ARUNDEL and SURREY adverted to
the conduct of the Kiirush Union, and expressed an
opinion favourable to the proposition of the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government,

Colonel SIBTHORP could not support the resolutions,
and would take every opportunity to oppose them.
Mr. P. SCROPE said that he highly approved of those
resolutions, as they as much concerned the interest of
the peopl of England as the Irish; he therefore thought
that the people of this country should see that these re-
solutions were fairly carried out by the boards of guar-
dians. He should, .however, say that ho differed from
the Noble Lord when he asserted that there was a con-
siderable reduction in the poor-rates. If such were the
case, he believed that it was effected by the denial of
relief to the p;or in those unions to which the Noble
Lord adverted. Yes, the unions of Kilrush, Scarry,
Ennistymon. and Westport were witnesses of those re-
ductions, cffe,:ted thronk;la the unwarrantable means of
denying relief to the poor applicants. He had been in-
formed that, at the time that out-door relief was denied,
the diet (riven in those workhouses was not such as was
prescribfd by the regulations of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners; and that the result was that the poor, who
would otherwise necessarily have made application, were
deterrei by the numerous deaths in those workhouses,
occasioned by bad diet, and therefore took as a choice to
risk their lives iu their huts and hovels, and by the ditch
side, rather than go into such charrelhouses.
Mr. CLEMENTS said that he considered that every
Irishman owed a deep debt of gratitude to the Noble
Lord for those most beneficial measures that he had in-
troduced. He certainly objected to the amount of money
granted to the unions in the wc►t, because he felt assured
that it would be very difficult to carry out the law in
those unions. He thought that it would be much more
beneficial if the waste lands would be reclaimed by a
grant, and that they be made exempt from the poor-
rate for some years. This project would give employ-
ment to the poor, and would be productive of general
utility.
Lord CLAUD HAMILTON said that he fully con-
curred in the system of giving employment to the poor,
and hoped that the Noble Lord would take it into con-
sideration.

Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know whether this
grant of 300,0001., with the debt of 4,783,0001., is to be
converted into consolidated annuities, and, if so, he
looked upon it as a most dangerous system of finance,
particularly when it extended over 40 years. He per-
fectly concurred with the resolutions, with the exception
of the system of consolidation.
Mr. GR ATTAN said, that from the climate, soil,
harbours, and geographical position, Ireland was not in-
tended by Providence to become a beggar, and he would
join with the Hon. and Gallant Colonel (Col. Sibthorp)
in opposing these resolutions. England should make a
bold revolve, and nothing else could save her. Ireland
would most assuredly otherwise pull her down.—(Hear.)
How, he would ask, could England bear the drain
which Irish miseries were entailing on it? A paper had
that day been laid upon the table of the House on the
subject of emigration. Well, how was that question
operating in the case of Ireland. He foiled, by a return
now in his hand, that 195,000 individuals had actually
arri,ed at Liverpool from Ireland, whence they were
driven by starvation. The land was being deserted, and
did the House think that the masses who were thus
forced from Ireland could be friendly to the interests of
England in other countries? He hoped they would; but
he should much rather, in a time of danger, see those
masses happily located on their own suil. The difficul-
ties of this country in relation to the condition of Ire-
land were very great, and the question was, how were
they to get out of them ? He would tell them—by not
getting into them.—(Loud laughter.) The country was
ruined, and it became a question, were they to keep it in
this state? Such was the discontent in Ireland,
that it required the Government of this country to
keep an army of 50,000 men in that country. With re-
spect to the Irish " Protectionists," he might say of
them, that they were Protectionists now that they had
nothing to lose, and that he despised men who were pro-
tectionists of a miserable shilling a bushel on corn. The
Irish Members were really of no use to their country.
The bad landlords were a marked class—the bad land-
lords wore "men to be shot at" from behind the hedge
—(Laughter)—while the good ones were free to walk
abroad. He had found that. The misgovernment of
the country was mainly the cause of the wretched state
in which the country now was. Were there no states-
men in England to stop the evil, and save the United
Kingdom from total ruin ? Was English statesmanship
sunk into stunted insignificance ? Was there no
Chatham—no Pitt—to rescue the country ? The
tGo-
vernment
and legislation of this country had destroyed
he peace,
the happiness, aye, even the 9nancial

happiness of Ireland. He found by returns, that
the revenue of Ireland had sunk down to ..198,000/., while
the money sent out of the country to " absentee " land-
lords amounted to 4,000,000/. By returns which he also
held in his hand, ho found that 200,0001. had been paid
in the last year for fever and famine in Ireland. The
Encumbered Estates Bill was now in operation in Ire-
land, and with respect to Vast he would say to the
Government, if they sell up men, let them sell up the
men who wore the cause of such a state of things as ho
had been deploring in that country—let them do that,
and not sell up innocent men. He did not think, with
respect to the " infusion of new blood" into Ireland,
spoken of by Sir Robert Peel, that the Right Honour-
able Baronet would live to see it. The Right Honour-
able Baronet imagined that an array of new menwould
spring up in that country, like men armed cap-a pie, and
springing forth from the head cf Minerva, but the Hon.
Baronet would be disappointed. He ( Mr. Grattan)
would again say to the House in the same language
which had before given so much offence to some Ho-
nourable Members, " Take back your money;" it
is not your money the Irish require, but juatice ;
you make them beggars when you should make
them men. _ _ _

Lord BERNARD could not but thank the Govern-
ment for the advance which it proposed in aid of the
distressed unions in Ireland on the present occasion;
and to the Noble Lord at the head of the Government
he thought especial thanks were duo for having pro-
posed it thus early in the session. The distress in many
of the unions was deep, and ho had no doubt the ad-
vance world prove a most seasonable relief.
Mr. BRIGHT wished to make one or two observa-
tions to the House on the subject now under consider:,
don. In most parts of Ireland, he was glad to be
enabled to state, there were some improvements in
the sadly distressed and disastrous condition of the peo-
ple over the last four yen's. He could comprehend the
claims which some Hon. Members in that House had put.
forward fur the 300,0001. which the Noble Lord at the
heal( f the Government proposed to advance to pay off
the debts of some of the distressed unions. Ile did not,
however, think that the Noble Lord had sufficiently ex-
plained to the House how it was that there were such an
enormous amount of arrears in some of those unions.
While he was in Ireland, a few months ago, his atten-
tion had been fixed on the condition of one or two of
the unions, and he found that the treater portion of the
money due was owing, net by the occupiers, but the
" owners" of the land in those unions. He was aware
that there was not any great partiality by the owners of
property in that country to the poor-rates, and he found
that the occupiers were generally distrained for the
arrears, while the owners managed to escape payment,
and came off " scot free." He would read an extract
to the House, which would show that ; and he felt
that when the Government showed that an in-
crease was necessary. it was bound to show
also that everyt'iing had been done to collect
the arrears due. He would not mention the names of
the unions, for certain reasons, but if any Honourable
Gentlemen wished to know he would tell hire in private.
In one union more than half the magistrates here de-
. faulters in respect to the rates due of them—(Cries of
" Name, name.") He took it that those magistrate
were careers of land. lie found, also, that both the
Members for the countywere defaulters—("Name, name !"
from several Irish county Members.) He found that
one of the magistrates had made over to his mother his
goods and chattels, SO that the poor-law officers could
not take them for the rate—(Name). He found that
another magistrate tramferred his stock to his son, and
that his son's name was now branded on them, in order
to defeat the poor-rate collector, and that case hod been
reported to the Cattle, but the Castle took no notice of
the matter, the party reported being in favour in that
quarter. He found taat another magistrate sat on the
Bench in his own case, and decided in that case. He
found that another magistrate west from his own to
another union, and helped his friend there to baffle the
law, end that in turn his friend came to his union, and
helped him to baffle the poor-law guardians of the
the
his
"ice—n
fever,case f
( but
rates due—(Name, name). Now, there was another
case which came under
W. Bourke, who was occupier of 19 acres of land,
and to his name he found this note of the collector—
havel This
nom doubt
a n is reallyhe
pi
will
pay."or, w 1! h hislle (Mr.family Bright) found
that there was property its Ireland which was assessed
to the rates, and that whoa application was made to a
superior court upon the subject the result of success was
very doub!f because ref some julgment debt which was
set up. lie found that in the unions of Beliarobe,
Clifdea, and Cast!ebar, the greet bulk of the rates was
owning by owners, and not by occupiers of land. Those
caws had been reported to the Castle of Dublin, and
the poor-law guardians found that after those detalca-
tions of the magistrates had been reported at the Castle,
the Castle took notice of them. Ho was not there to
object to the advance of this grant of 300,0001., but he
hoped it would be the last.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—An " advance," not a grant.
Mr. BRIGHT—The Noble Lord says an " advance;"
be it so. But he (Mr. Bright) hoped it would come on
the men who owned the land, and who had extermi-
nated their people, and would not offer or let their lands
on terms which people could take them at.
An Hoe. MEMBER—Who are they? Name.
Mr. BRIGHT knew it to be a fact. There was the
union of Clitden. Last year that union was rated at 2s.
in the pound, the year before at3s., and the year before
at Is. Thus, then, it would be seen that the union of
Clitden never paid more than 7s. in the pound fur poor
rate. This year it was proposed t) rate it at 53. in the
pound. He ;night mention to the House an instance of
a gentleman who rented a farm in Ire'and, and who was
rated at 17/. 10s. for his holding, a rate which some
would call excessive. What did that gentleman remark
. _

to him?—" They say," said be, " that poor-rates will
prove Via ruin of Ire!and." All I know is, that a mann-
falturing concern with which I am connected is rated
at 300/.