The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-23 00:00:00

RIVER PLATE.

The Earl of HARROWBY asked what was the state
of our relations with Buenos Ayres?
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that a treaty
had been signed with General Roses, the Pesident of the
Argentine Republic, but he could not at present lay it
on the table, as it had not yet arrived in this country.
The Earl of ABERDEEN considered that we
should have done nothing by signing a treaty with
General Roses, unless by that treaty we secured
the independence of the Oriental Republic.
lie thought it was a mistike on the part of the Go-
vernment to have separated this country from
France in conducting these negotiations, because
by so doing they had restored to France her
freedom of action. The comequence had been that
Franco had sent out a force of 1,500 men
to • Monte Video, quite sufficient to garrison
the town, and if they could not conclude a
satisfactory treaty with 'Cosa?, they would follow up
that force by a more formidable expedition.—
(Hear, hear.) fle thought that our treaty with
Roses should have bean drawn up in conjunction
with the French Government. He had, however,
no hesitation in bay in g that he would in-
fin:tely pri far seeir, the French in pos-
session cf Monts V7deo than General Roses.
He considered it was impolitic for us to have en-
tered into any arrangement with General Row,
without making General Oribe a party to that arrange-
ment—no arrangement with Roses would secure the
safety rf foreigners in the Oriental territory without
the consent of General Oribe. He understood that our
Minister had not been admitted to the presence
of General Ros9s. Now he contended that
in treating wi:h sem;-barharous powers of this nature
it WAS absurd to stand upon diplomatic etiquette.
They ought not to submit to insults of this sort
from a seeoad-rata power. He hoped the treaty would
prove sadiLet.ry, but he had grave doubts on the

at eject,
. Lord BOWDEN approved of the terms of the treaty,
as such •e•.s ,ied_by Nohie Marciais. As regards
the qucst• in • f in,rnatioottl law, involve I in the dispute
as to wh-thcr ttie avig4liou of great river?, pfessing
thr,:ugh sevcrw cuubtrles, ought to be free, he urged th,-,
11,it1S, L;.;litly to ps-s an :pinion on th,- point, as
they were them ',lves occupying a position on the Awe-
rican co:vit.-rent a,;al,,gotri to rhst in:detained by General
R•ses, w;tn reg,ircl ro the free tiavigvion of the Parana.
He &bought that the bucesecering expe,iition for forcing
the pasei4e of the (Piligado was a grave infraction o f in-
terry.tierrel law, arid also most irupoliJic, as it incensed
R,,eas a,. a pr'riod w rice it was most inoportan for us to
conciliate him. The Noble Lord then defended General
Ross f,:m the ino,:eittvions :,f cruelty which had been
east on h n in tile Fr lich Assembly, of ill-treatment •f
e as, not one ~f which statements was true. He
had ne,e, he rd rif a single case of premeflitated cruelty
be:, g b ought home t r itosas; and, on the contrary, he
krAiw ariy easis in which he had afforded benevolent
protection. Of course soldiers in the heat of civil war, and
especially Spanish American soldiers, would commit Ex-
cesses not justifiable by the practice of civilized warfare;
and he thought that foreign adventurers, seeking to pro-
fit by the 'waled. of civil f,utis and contentions,
ought not to look for the safety and protection to be
found only in a perceahle and well-ordered state. They
might depend upou it there was no fear of the indepen-
dent persons of Monte Video giving up their indepen-
dence t General Rows, the National Assembly of
France, or to any other body of persons.
After a few w,,rds from the Earl of HARROWI3Y,
Lord GULCHES ['ER said that as long as the sea was
open, there was, no fear that Monte Video would be
taken by any person or party, however strong. He
hoped that the Government would keep a watchful eye
upon the movements of other ra'ions in respect to Monte
Wen:

Aiter a few words from Lord HOWDEN,
The Ntirquis of LANSDOWNE said the Government
had no otf,er ~hjecit in chat they had done but to protect
the commercial interests cf this countty.
The buy eet then dropped.
SUNDAY TRADING BILL.
The Earl of fIAIiIZOWBY, in postponing the second
roadil,g of the BW, expres4ed a hope that the evidence
given before the Committee on the subject of Sunday
raling would be in the hands of their Lordships before
that d

CAI'APBELL was understood to iay that the
evidence would be ready before that time.
The second reading of the Bill was then postponed till
Friday next.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

SOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 22.
Tie SPEAKER took the Chtsir at Four o'clock.
SECOND READINGS.

The following Bills were read a second time, and cr-
&red to bo committed ;
Bolton Improvement.
Bridge across the River Clyde opposite to South Port-
land-street. Lourieston, Glasgow.
BRITISH ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH BILL.
Mr. FARRER moved the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. Ricauno then rose, but Mr. Pullman entered
to stiolm, n the House to hear the Royal Assent given to
a certain by Commission in the House of Peers.
Mr. RICARDO then said that he felt more
than ever the necessity of requiring that notices of
opposition to a Bill should be given within a certain.
date. He should oppose the Bill, because he was as-
sured that t',e Bill was neither more nor less than an at-
tempt t,) ex rt money from the shareholders of rival
oompanit,.. Y,t, feeling that the notices to
which he alluded ought to be given, he would amend
his motion, and move that the Bill be read that day week
instea4 Of that day six months.—(Hear, hear.)
fir.
FA RR ER protested against the imputation of Mr.
gioarde.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
.

•
For the second reading ..• ••• •• 75
• Against it ••• ••• ••• ••. 12
Majority for the second reading —63
CAMBRIDGE AND SHEPRETH JUNCTION
RAILWAY, •tc. DILL.
Lord C. MANNERS moved the second reading of this
Bilf.

Mr. TOWNLEY would readily support the second
raiding of this Bill, for he believed that its enactment
would be productive of great public advantage.
Mr. GIBSON said that this Bill had been already'
rejected in Committep, and he thought that that fur-
nished a very fair ground for opposing the second
reading.
Mr. GREENE thought that the Bill ought to be
allowed to go into Committee, if it were only ai a mat-
ter of principl,..
I;nrd IrARRY VANE thought that the most expe-
dient course to follow would be to withdraw the Bill
for the prsent, and upon its re-introduction to state the
merits of it to the House.

After a words from Lord J. MANNERS
Mr. SPOONER said this was an instance' of the
evils resulting from timely notice not being given.
The Bill bad been rejected only in its details, the prih.:
ciple had been approved no less than three times.
After a Jew observations from some other lion.
Members,
Mr. TOWNLEY withdrew his amendment, and it
Bill should be read a second time

'RIVATE BIILS.
Its were then read a second time, and

fitted :
lad Railway.
.ance Company.
wbour Improvement.
Railway.

Gorbals Gravitation Water Company.
Hartlepool West Harbour and Docks.
Liverpool, Crosby, and Southport Railway (Sale or
Lease to the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway
Company, &c.)
North Staffordshire Railway (Ashbourne Branch, Power
to Lease, Amendment of Acts).
North Staffordshire Railway (Extension of Time for
Purchase of Lands, &c.)
Reading Union Waterworks.
Shrewsbury and Hereford Railway.
Snaith and Cowick, Union of the Townships, Ste.
South Staffordshire Railway.
•
South Wales Railway (No. 2.)
PETITIONS AGAINST PRIVATE BILLS.

Mr. W. PATTEN gave notice that on Monday next
he should move that three days' notice should be given
at the Private Bill-office of an intention to oppose the
second reading of a private Bill.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Mr. BELL presented a petition from Northumber-
land, signed by 15,000 inhabitants of that country, com-
plaining of agricultural distress.
POST-OFFICE LABOUR.
_ _

Petitions were presen:ed by Mr. Duncan and the
Hon. Mr. Clive, and several other Members, against the
employment of labour on Sundays in tho Post office.
POLITICAL INFORMATION.

Mr. MUNTZ presented a petition from the Political
Associaticn of Birmingham, praying that greater infor-
mation might be diffused among the people respecting
political subjects, as otherwise greater mistakes would be
made in legislation than had already been made, which
wag needless.—(" Hear, heir," and laughter.)
WINDOW DUTY.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY presented a petition from
Stafford praying for the abolition of the window slaty.
AGRICULTURAL PROTECTION.

Mr. BANKES presented a petition from a meeting
praying for the return to protective duties.
SUNDAY LABOUR IN THE POST-OFFICE.
Admiral Gordon, Mr. Hildyard, Lord J. Manners, and
Mr. Napier presented petitions from various places
against Sunday labour in the Post-office.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from the inhabi-
tants of Gllsgow, complaining that a policeman of the
name of Cameron having killed a man with a blow of
his truncheon, had by the mismanagement of the autho-
rities been allowed to escape trial and punishment, and
praying the House to institute inquiries.
COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS.

Sir E. BUXTON presented a petition in favour of the
establishment of county financial boards.
Sir R. PEEL presented a petition from Staffordshire,
praying that ratepayers might have a concurrent con-
trol over county expenditure with the magistrates.
Sir W. MOLES WORTH presented a petiton from
the Strand Union in &your of the establishment of
county financial boards.
TIMBER DUTIES.

Lord JOCELYN presented a petition from King's
Lynn, praying for a repeal of the duties on timber.
SUNDAY LABOUR IN THE POST•OFFICE.
Mr. COWAN presented a petition from Leith against
Sunday labour in the Post-office.
ARMY AND NAVY ESTIMATES.

Mr HUME wished to know when the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell) intended to take the first vote for the
army and navy, as it was his intention to make a motion
calling upon the Government to bring the financial state
of the country before the House before any vote was
proposed.
Lora J. RUSSELL was understood to say that he
would take the first vote on Monday se'nnight.
PRICES OF CORN.

Mr. EVELYN DENISON wished to know whether
the returns, alluded to by the Hon. Member for West-
bury (Mr. Wilson) last night, of the prices of corn in
Belgium and France, were of an official character, and
could be laid on the table for the information of the House?
Mr. WILSON said the information was not received
through the Foreign-office, but it came directly to hi m
from official sources in Paris, Berlin, and Brussels, and,
so far as he was concerned, he should be glad to facili-
tate the object the Hon. Gentleman had in view of laying
them on the table. Perhaps the proper course would be
to ask his Right Hon. Friend the President of the Board
of Trade to lay the papers on the table through his
department.
Mr. DisitAgLi apprehended that the question put
to the Honourable Member for Westbury was whether
he received the information in his official capacity or
in any other capacity.
Mr. WILSON stated last night that he received it on
his private application.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the Australian Colonies
Bill stood for committal on Monday next, but as the
question of whether there should be one house or two for
the government of the colony was likely to be raised,
he wished to postpone it until the house should be in
possession of all the information bearing upon the point.
—( Hear, hear.) A dispatch had been received this
morning, which it was highly important the House should
be in possession of before it debated the question.—
(Heer.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had given
hotice of his intention to move in Committee that there
should be two houses, instead of the proposal of the Go-
vernment contained in this Bili ; but the notice did not
state how the houses were to be elected—by the Crown
or by any other body—and he, therefore, hoped the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman would specify
the details of his plan.—(Hear, hear.) He should
therefore, move that the order of the day be now read
fur the purpose of being postponed till this day fortnight,
when he should be in a position to state the reason the
B 11 had been prepared in its present shape.
Mr. DIVE IT asked the Noble Lord to state posi-
tively that the Bill w, uld come on then.
Lord J. RUSSELL saw no reason why it should not.
The order of the day was then rend and postpone!.
EMIGRANT SHIPS.
In answer to a question from Mr. GRATTAN,
Mr. HAWES said, with regard to the ill-treatment of
certain female emigrants on board the ship Sobraon,
certain of tee officers belonging to that vessel who had
been geilty of the misconduct in question had been
degraded.
Lord ASHLEY wished to ask the Under-Secretary
of State for the Colonies whether the Government had
instituted any inquiry into the alleged flogging of cer-
tain females on board the emigrant ship Romulus?
Mr. HAWES said the ship arrived in March last, and
the passengers made no complaint whatever of any ill-
treatoseat. It eventually turned out, however, that four
females bad been brutally treated, though not actually
flogged. in the presence of the matron, by the surgeon.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Sir W. SOMERVILLE, this Bill
was read a third time and passed.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved that this Bill be read
a second time.
Mr. NAPIER said he felt it his duty to
ask the attention of the House while he made
a few remarks upon some important clauses of
this Bill. The objections which he had against the Bill
were not objections of detail. Ho thought the principle
of the Bill was one which would be entirely destructive
of the principle of the constitution of the country. The
ground put forward in this Bill was, that,owing to certain
fatal events which had taken place in Ireland, theconsti-
tuency had dribbled away, and that unless some additions
were made, in some parts of Ireland there would be
no constituency at all. It was under circumstances
of greet depression that this Bill sought to decrease
the qualification and increase the number of voters.
This has been basel entirely upon an erroneous suppo-
sition respecting the franchise, respecting the county
and the borotigh franchise. In the county the franchise
was simply based upon the property which he occupied.
In the borough franchise it was different. The occu-
pant of a house in a borough did not depend upon the
property which he held, but upon his occupation. In a
borough a man was a substantial man because he de-
pended upon his business rather than upon the property
which he held. In the county districts this uas totally
different. There the votes depended entirely upon the
interest of the tenant in the property which he held of
his landlord. This made a material difference in the
positions of the two parties, much• to the disadvantage
of the county constituent. The Hon. Gentleman then
said that he would advert to the several clauses of the
Bill, and show how injuriously this would act.—
(Hear, hear.) In the first place, the early clauses would
reduce the power of the constituency far below the
usual average. But he would go through the clauses.
The Hon. Gentleman then read the first clause, which sim-
ply explained the nature of the Bill. The second clause
of the Bill, which gave votes for each holding under a
joint occupancy, would give rise to the evils which had
arisen from the principle of subdivision in Ireland. Their
object ought to have been to promote the good of the
country by encouraging a substantial yeomanry with good
leases, who would endeavour to improve the land and in-
crease its value. But this clause would bring into ex-
istence a horde of xoters who would be agents in the
hands of political parties, and perhaps the means of put-
ting the country into such a state as to render all hope
of its permanent improvement useless. The third clause
would increase the evil, for it gave a vote to every 51. holding.
With regard to the borough franchise, he did not intend
to offer any opposition to that, but with respect to the
basis of this franchise, it appeared to be founded upon a
principle that requires great caution and great circum-
spection. It was of deep importance to sever the work-
ing of the poor-law in Ireland from anything religious
or political, and yet the basis of this franchise was
realto devpaelnadationupon theof
p eprryoo.r....-law(R,
eaar:id
hanaort.) thief
they wanted to have in Ireland a substantial class of
occupiers holding under genuine leases, and bent upon
the improvement of the country, why at this time intro-
duce such a Bill, when, to use the language of the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland, that country had been too long
trained to a system of agitation to be suddenly weaned from
its pursuit, and that what Ireland stood most in need of
VV4i internal tranquillity. In place of having 501. and
201. freeholders, they would have 51. freeholders. It was
nothing better than a system of 403. freeholders,which was
got rid of at the time of the Emancipation Bill. They
would sublet and subdivide the land, and raise up a
horde of persons who, whatever other qualities they
might possess, would be exceedingly useful to design-
ing meu in carrying out their purposes.—(Bear, hear.)
The Learned Gentleman then read a return showing
the number of qualifications of persons rated in Ireland.
If the House wished to see a substantial class of voters
in the country, he would ask whether this Bill was likely
to effect that object? He hoped the Bill would be well
and thoroughly considered.
Mr. HUME began by saying that the question of
representation had excited so much attention
throughout Europe, that her Majesty's Government
had tardily come forward to extend the suffrage to the
colonies. His principal object in getting up was, to say
that this Bill would not satisfy Ireland. Every man at
the Cape of Good Hope who paid to the roll-tax would
have a right. to vote, and were Irishmen of less value
than Cape of Good Hope colonists ? They ought to
make taxation and representation coincident, which was
done ill the Cape of Good Hope Bill.—(Hear, hear.)

THE SUN,

Irishmen required moral elevation 3 and nothing, in his
opinion, would tend more to that moral elevation
than the giving to every man a stake in the
country, and a voice in the direction of public affairs.
—(Hear, hear.) So far from thinking that this Bill
went too far, he was quite of a different opinion.
Hitherto they had treated Irishmen as if they were cattle.
They had treated Irishmen worse than Hottentots' and
he trusted, therefore, that the Government, which had
seemingly taken a step in the right direction, would perse-
vere in that effort and ultimately accomplish that enlarge-
ment of the franchise which would give to every man a
stake in the country, for that was the only means, in his
opinion, for rectifying the evil state of public feeling in
that country.
Mr. REYNOLDS was glad in the extreme that his ex-
cellent and Hon. Friend, the Member for Montrose, had
broached this subject, for on the contemplated evil of the
removal of the Lord-Lieutenant from Ireland, he fully be-
lieved that there was no other means of providing aremedy
for the evils which the country would suffer than a just
extension of the franchise. He attended the House be-
cause he had been told that the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Napier) had been determined to offer
a strenuous opposition to the passing of the party Pro-
cessions Bill. He was glad to find that he (Mr. Na-
pier) had sacrificed the Orange party at Dolly's
Brae, the Rodens and Co.; but, at the same time, he
should say, that he regrettel that he was so deter-
minedly opposed to the extension of the franchise to the
counties, though he did admit it to the boroughs of Ire
land. He highly appreciated that observation of the
Honourable Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), when
be said that property- worth 81. in Ireland eas worth 30/.
in England, and therefore hoped that the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir William Somerville) would not adhere to the
81. valuation, after all the promises he had made on the
subject of the franchise; for if he did, he (Mr. Reynolds),
for his part, should declare to the House and to Ireland
that he was totally disappointed.—(Hear, hear.)
Let them look to the extent of the Par-
liamentary franchise in the Irish counties, and they
would find that they were a mere shadow, with the
exception of the 50/. leasehold and the 201. eopyhold.
He had several objections to various clauses of the Bill.
He would ask why did not the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Napier), when he so strongly argued
against the extension of the franchise in counties, al-
lude to those pets of his, the freemen, who have not
" a local habitation," and he might fairly add, " a
name," for he was well aware that many persons had,
voted in the names of those who had gone to their ac-
count many a century ago; for in 1847, when he had
the temerity to contest the city of Dublin with Mr.
Gregory, there were on the list 21,000 Parliamentary
voters, but of these only 7,100 polled, 3,600 for himself
and 3,500 for his opponent. Thus he was returned, but
a petition immediately followed his conquest. And
what was the ground of this petition? That 90 of his
electors were in arrears of local taxation for the sum of
454 17s. 6d. The petition against him for this arrear cost
during the 94 days that it was being examined up-stairs,
no less a sum than fifteen thousand pounds. He looked
upon that fact as being a clear source of his knowledge
of those freemen, and assured the House that he
would not fancy having another such trial.—(Laughter.)
He did not mean to attribute perjury to the men who
opposed him on that petition, but he should say that
there was in their case a considerable economising of
time.—(Laughter.) This was to him an important
matter, and his motive for alluding to it was that the
present Bill leaves such a matter altogether untouched;
for he considered that a Committee of the House should
not investigate the case of a man who had been approved
of by the Assistant-Barrister at the Quarter Sessions,
and, when appealed against, by the Judge of Assize.
This he thought a sufficient ordeal, without a Committee
of the House. He recollected when a number of free-
men-brokers were employed in Liverpool to send over
the freemen of Dublin from Manchester, and other manu-
facturing towns, to vote at the election, but he hoped
that day was passed, and that this Protestant ascendancy
party—this Orange Peel—remarkable only for its dry-
ness—were gone never to be spoke or thought about.
He felt assured that this Bill would disappoint the
people of Ireland, and he intended, therefore, when this
Bill would go into Committee, to move that every man
in the counties and boroughs, of a certain fixed valuatioo,
should be entitled to vote for a Parliamentary candidate.
Sir J. WALSH objected to this BilL.vn the Same
grounds as the Hon. and Learned Member for the Dub-
lin University (Mr. Napier), because he' considered that
it would throw the representation of the country-;into
the hands of persons whose condition must frequently
make them the tools of others of greater influence. lie
hoped that the Noble Lord (Lord J. Rtissell) would take
the necessary precautions against such a precedent, as
this Bill would establish grounds for the English to de-
mand an extension of the suffrage. Ireland was re-
duced to destitution by the causes to which he had ad-
verted, and, were those, he would ask, reasons for en-
larging the qualification, and extending it to a pauperised
class of persons? The measure would have the effect
of giving to Antrim 22,000 additional voters ; to Kil-
dare, 10,000; and would, in fact, double and treble the
constituencies. There wero two political parties in
Ireland—the Protestants, who must always maintain a
respectable position, from their property; and the
Catholics, also a most respectable and important
class, but overwhelming by their numbers. The
effect of the proposed measure would give to that
class, from that circumstance, a preponderating in-
fluence, from which the most serious consequences might
arise in relation to the Government, and political institu-
tions of that country. The Noble Lord at the head of the
Government should then pause before ho pressed this
measure. Ireland was at present divided, and it was
only by the bayonet and a large military force, that the
Government were enabled to keep that country in order,
agitated as it was by the most fanatical class of poli-
tical agitators, that could afflict any country. He
would not, on consideration, offer any opposition to the
Bill going into Committee, but when in Committee, he
should certainly feel himself at liberty to offer opposition
to such details of it as he deemed objectionable.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought that the effect of
the Bill, in its present shape, would be to diminish the
franchise in Ireland. For instance, the rating at Si.
would be on a rental of 121., and as tthe case stood at
present the rating was ou 10!. He thought the rating
too high in the boroughs, and the Bill was, in its pre-
sent shape, objectionable in many respects, which re-
quired amendment.
Captain TAYLOR could now allow the Bill to go to a
second reading without expressing his opinion upon it.
He admitted that the constituencies of Ireland were very
much diminished, but the House should take care that
in any change which they might- make in the elective
franchise in Ireland, injury was not done to one class of
ii.terests by extending a too great numerical power to
another. He- apprehended—indeed there was no doubt
—that the proposed increase in the borough constituen-
cies would swamp the constituent power in the counties,
and he thought the 8/. qualification ought to be raised
to 25!. The question was one which required serious
consideration, and he hoped, should the Bill be read a
second time, that the Right Hon. Baronet would not
press it through Committee, but give time to the Irish
Members to consider it.
Colonel RAWDON regarded the question which they
were now discussing as the life-breath of the constitu-
tion. They had several Members in the House who
said that the Bill would not give satisfaction, and the
Hon. Member for the county of Dublin (Colonel Taylor)
went so far as to say that the qualification ought to be
raised from 8/. to 251. Now, all those expressions of
dissatisf.ction showed a want of confidence in the people.
Ho would not at present enter into details, but for his
part he accepted the Bill as a great improvement, and
believed it would do away with a very great deal of
immorality in respect to the present mode of swearing to
a " beneficial" interest. Ho believed the Bill was based
on the principle of taxation and representation. The
Bill would admit of improvement. He would not, how-
ever, at present find fault with it, seeing the difficulties
of the Minister, but if he were to say anything on its
details it would be to express his regret that the Right
Hon. Baronet should have imported any ingredient into
the Bill which could prove injurious to the boroughs.
He would, when the Bill goes into Committee, give it
his most cordial support.
Sir JOHN YOUNG considered the real reason of the
givingf lling off
leases.of H
the
n
electors
believedin
thewasn
constituencies
tni
teceens
es necessity
oof
f
the whole of the counties in Ireland did not now really
amount to 40,000. The franchise in boroughs and
counties should not be equal, and in Committee he hoped
the Bill would be much improved in its details.
Mr. FEARGUS O'CONNOR could assure the House
that the trial of a vote in Ireland was like a trial at bar.
Every difficulty was thrown in the way of the voter's
right. Questions were put to him as to what his seed,
and every possible thing cost him, and if he could not
prove that his beneficial interest amounted to 101., he
was deprived of his right to vote. The Government
were a free-trade Government, and they were probably
secure in the counties and boroughs•, but of the
landlords of Ireland, who were in that House, he
must say, and he spoke it not offensively, that their op-
position to the rights of the people drove the people into
antagonism to them; add this he would also say to the
landlords of Ireland that they never would see their ea-

tates acquire their real value until they encouraged
more of the spirit of democracy among the people. He
was sorry that there was this difference between the
landlords of England and Ireland—that the landlords of
England were gentlemen, and the landlords of Ireland
were tyrants. He thanked the Government for the Bill,
and he accepted it with a most grateful feeling.
Lord CLAUD HAMILTON defended the landlords
of Ireland from the aspersions which he considered had
been unjustly cast upon them by the lion. Member for
Nottingham. The Hon. Gentleman had tried hard to
attach himself to the land, and some feeling of modesty
should have restrained him from imputing to them mo-
tives and conduct which they utterly repudiated. If the
landlords of Ireland had faults, their treatment of their
tenants was at least somewhat more successful than that
pursued by the Hon. Member towards the unhappy
tenants at Snigg's-end.—(Hear, boar.)
Mr. O'CONNOR—But they pay no rent.
Lord CLAUD HAMILTON bad no objection to
the Bill so fai• as it was calculated to increase the pre-
sent number of constituents, but he should like to Fee it
so far modified that no man should be put on the re-
gister without his own consent. There ought to be some
qualification in the first instance. He hoped that the
night Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland would
consent to postpone the further progress of the measure
until after the Irish assizes, as many of the Irish Mem-
bers would, for the next two or three weeks, be
obliged to absent themselves from their Parliamentary
duties.

Mr. BRIGHT was glad to !find that, even on the
other side of the House, the necessity for some such
Bill as the present was conceded. He feared, however,
they were disposed to make this small
.measure of jug.
tice even much smaller than it was proposed to be by the
Government. He called the attention of the Secretary
for Ireland to the desire which he thought was manifested
of attaching restrictions :to the franchise,i which were
already found to be of a vexatious character. Among

other provisions of the Bill, it was enacted that there
shall be a residence by the occupier of twelve months,
while the ownership was iimited to silt months. This
restriction of the franchise he ;considered anything but
use-ful for the honest purposes of the Bill, and he
thought they would do wisely to consider its
alteration in Committee.—(Hear, hear.): With
retard to the question of a rateable franchise,
he considered it was bad everywhere, but especially in
Ireland. The guardians had the power of increasing
or diminishing the valuation, so that they had the
means at command of increasing the franchise- in one
union, aud curtailing it in another, just as it suited their
own views and purposes. Representation should be
established in Ireland on such a basis, that when a
general measure of Parliamentary reform was proposed,
as no doubt it soon should be, they would be able to
stand by the Irish system. The independent electoral
body in Ireland required the ballot to protect them from
the influence which the landlord on the one side, and the
priests on the other, exercised over popular opinion. The
measure proposed by Government would be an improve-
ment on the present system, indeed the most ingenious
man could not propose any Bill that would not be an
improvement; but he wished to aisure the Noble Lord
at the head of the Government that he could not take
any course more fatal than to listen to the suggestions of
those who would make the Bill les. effective by inc, e is-
ing the qualification. He was sorry that they had nit
brought in a much bolder measure.
Mr. GROGAN took some exceptions to the details cf
the measure, and among others to the principle of com-
pulsory registration.
Mr. FAGAN expressed a hope that the suggestions
thrown cut by Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side,
with respect to alterations of the Bill, would not be at-
tended to. So far as cities and boroughs were concerned,
he would rather that the present system was continued,
than that an eight pound rating should be substituted. He
would also have the power of striking the valuations
taken out of the hands of the poor-law guardians, for
the effect of leaving that matter in their hands, would be
to decrease instead of increase the number of voters.
He trusted, however, no delay would take place in press-
ing the measure through Parliament, fur at present
there might be said to be no franchise in Ireland. It
had :been 'stated, in the course of the debate, that the
number of electors at present on the registry in Ire-
land, was 36,000, but he considered that statement ex-
aggerated, and he did not believe that the whole consti-
tuency in Ireland, at the present time, was so numerous
as the constituency of the West Riding of Yorkshire.
As to what had been said about forcing people to be put
upon the register, he did not think that they ought to
wait until a man asked to be put upon it, but that he
should be placed on the register as he would upon the
jury list. It was a matttet of public duty, and ought to
be dealt with as such.
Sir J. TYRELL considered there were great defects
in the present state of the franchise as respected Ireland;
aud be thought the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment had exercised a wise discretion in bringing for-
ward such a measure, as in a manner would cause all
parties and classes to be represented. At the same time
there were considerations of a political character con-
nected with it, which made it a matter of considerable
difficulty to deal with. He did not wish to introduce
controversial matter into the debate, but as the Hon. Mem-
ber for Manchester bad referred to the influence exer-
cised by the Roman Catholic priests in Ireland, he
thought he was justified to refer to the evidence given
by one of those priests who was summoned by the Go-
vernment before the Pour-law Committee, and to which
considerable importance was attached. It related to the
management of property in the Union of Kenmare, be-
longing to Lord Lansdowne, which he believed was let
at. the poor-law valuation, but at the same time Lord
Lansdowne had in the union numbers of able-bodied men.
—(Loud cries of " Order, order," and " Question."
Viscount CASTLEREAGH—Sir, I wish to appeal
to you whether this is at all pertinent to the question be-
fore the House?—(Hear, hear.) We are anxious to go
on' with the debate, and I think it wrong that the Hon.
Baronet should interrupt it by the introduction of irrele-
'vent matter.—(Hear, hcar.)
Sir JOHN TYRELL.—It was only a very few sen-
tences of the evidence of this Roman Catholic priest, as
given before the Committee, I was going to refer to, as
*bowing—
Mr. MAURICE O'CONNELL—Put a motion upon
the paper, and then call the attention of the House to
the case.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN TYRELL—If I am allowed to proceed I
will not detain the House but a few minutes.—(Cries of
!. Question, question.") I will speak to the question be-
fore I sit down.—(Laughter.) The question is as to the
amendment of the Reform Bill—as to a new Reform
Bill for Ireland. Now the Hon. Member fur Manchester
in speaking to that question referred to the influence
exercised by the Roman Catholic priests in Ireland, and
I am in possession of evidence which was produced by
the Government before the Poor-law Committee.—
(Loud cries of " Question, question.")
Mr. O'FLAHERTY—Sir, I must appeal to the Chair.
That Roman Catholic priest was not brought forward to
give his evidence by the Government. lam not aware
whether it was the Hon. Member for Cavan.—(Cries of
" Order, order.")
The SPEAKER—If the Hon. Member rises to order
he must not speak to the question. As to the evidence
referred to by the Hon. Baronet, I understand it was re-
jected by the Committee, and never reported to this
House, so that I apprehend the Hon. Baronet is out of
order in now referring to it.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JOHN TYRELL—I do not say it is evidence, but
it was attempted to be made evidence.—(Laughter.)
And it was the opinion of that priest, with reference to
the social condition of those who occupied the property
referred to, and the conduct of Lord Lansdowne—(Cries
of " Order," and " Question.")
Viscount CASTLEREAGII—Sir, I must again ap-
peal to the Chair to say whether the Hon. Baronet is
Justified in appealing to this evidence.—(Hear, hear.)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Baronet is now speak-
ing in explanation. As regards the evidence to which
the Hon. Baronet is referring, I have already said that
it was rejected by the Poor-law Committee, and never
baying been reported to this House the Hon. Baronet is
out 4 f order in alluding to it.—(Hear hear.)
Sir JOHN TYRELL.—WeII, Sir, I will not set up
my authority against your authority—(Laughter)—but
on the present occasion I thought it might have been cf
consequence to have put the House in possession of a
few sentences from that evidence. I can well understand
how the Gentlemen opposite are so much averse to hear-
ing it, but after the opinion expressed by the Speaker, I
will not further interpose.—(gear, hear.)
Viscount CASTLEREAGH said he thought it would
be of importance could the Right Hon. the Secretary
for Ireland lay on the table previous to the Bill going
into Committee, some returns which he could procure
giving some idea as to
operate in counties. He was
fromhow the
eepoor-law
measure
would guard i ans'
quite willing to give the measure every consideration—
(dear, hear)—whilst at the same time he was somewhat
sorry that Ireland should be selected for the purpose
of making a sort of experiment in respect of the question
of the franchise. As they were told it was most likely,
that ere long some measure in that respect would be re-
quired for the United Kingdom, why not wait, and
bring in a general measure at once, for it was most
likely that in a few years they would have to alter the
measure, so as to make it tally with the one which
would be introduced. That would be absolutely neces-
sary, for unless they placed England and Ireland under
the same laws in this respect they would never bring
the country into a proper state.
Mr. MONSELL supported the measure. As to what
had been said about leases, be fully agreed that the
people of Ireland should have leases, but he was aware,
at the same time, that one reason why the constituency
of Ireland was so small, was that the landlords had re-
fused their tenants leases, in order that they might be
deprived of the right of voting, With reference not
ouiy to the south but to the north of Ireland, that was
o they
tho case. A suggestion had been made of taking the
and ifhe not,th hgehyt would be sure to be
the suggestion was
power of striking the valuations out of the hands of the
struckpoorla wt
toohigh,
u aria s , as
worthy of consideration. Upon the whole ho would
entreat Government not to lose a day in carrying
through the measure.

Mr: SADLEIR heartily joined in the desire ex-
pressed by the Honourable Gentleman who had pre•
ceded him, that Government would carry through the
Bill with all possible expedition. Every one in Ireland
bad had full opportunity of making themselves conver-
sant with the details of the measure, and he trusted that
no further delay would take place in respect of it. In
many districts the people were deprived of all franchise
right. In Tipperary, with a population of 500,000, the
people entitled to vote did not number 400. Those
parties who were so entitled were the clergymen of the
Established Church and rent chargers. That, therefore,
would show the necessity which existed for such a mea-
sure. Should it pass it would have the effect of inducing
landlords in Ireland to grant leases to their tenants, and
that would be a matter of the greatest advantage to Ire-
land. He had objections to some of the details of
the Bill, but these might be remedied in Committee,
and the great principle of the Bill being sound, he
would not cavil with the Government as to
those details in the present stage of the measure.
—(Hear, hear.) He believed, however, that as re-
garded boroughs, the Bill would diminish very much
the franchise in those places. He was always op-
posed to the manufacture of voters either in England
or Ireland, and as much against rent-charges in Ireland
as he was to the system of procuring the 40s. free-
holds
for artizans in the counties of England. Re
thought that instead of the clause in the present Bill
giving the franchise to persons having a Si. ownership
in fee, irrespective of occupation, if the 40s. freehold in
occupation was given, it would be far better. He ap-
proved, however, of the principles of the Bill, and should
give it his support.
Mr. O'FLAHERTY expressed his thanks to the Go-
vernment for the Bill proposed, and begged to add his
request that it may not be postponed, as the Irish con-
stituency was almost extinguished.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. KEOGH believed that all agreed on the necessity
of a Bill like the present, for on looking to returns laid
onthet
was onlyableofth 2e7H,707, ng
,inhcelufdoiund that the total con-
stituency the counties, cities,
and boroughs. cities,
Now let lion. Members contrast that
state of things with what existed in England. The
population of England was 15,000,000, and the consti-
tuency 796,000, or one in every 53,000. The population
of Ireland was over 8,000,000, and the constituency
73,000, or one in s,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) And if they
touk those who would be entitled to the franchise there
would be 374,000. But how many of this number would
be disfranchised from neglecting to pay the rates? He
believed fully one-third, and that, therefore, the con-
stituency would be most unjust in proportion, as
compared to England. He was far from believing the
constituency would be extravagantly enlarged, for of
that 374,000,
fully one-third, as he bad said, would be
disfranchised by not paying the rates. He believed also
that the franchise would be much limited in the
boroughs by the present Bill, but not to the extent an-

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