The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-22 00:00:00

separate system for the Catholic Church in Ireland, and
endowing it with a separate fund. Where were the
funds to cotIlf! from ? He was convinced that, besides
being more cossly from the maintenance of separate esta-
blishm ,nze the Protestants of Ireland would not ap-
prove of such a system. It was unfair and unjust for
Hon. Gentlemen concurring in the object of the present
motion, to tax Protestant clergymen in Ireland who
were of a different opinion, with acting in opposition to
their ordination vows, and with supporting a system which
they well knew to be anti-scriptural. He believed that
the motion would destroy the present system of na-
tional education in Ireland, and, considering how much
good that system had done and was doing, he hoped the
House would not consent to supersede it by another
which was sure to prove expensive and unpopular.—
(Hear, hear.)
Me. NEW DEGATE, its expressing his intention
to support the motion of the Hon. Member for the
University of Dublin, said he did so not from any inten-
tion of diminishing the privileges and advantages
of parties who dissented from the Church Esta-
blishment, but from the belief which he had that
it was quite possible for the House so to modify
the existing system, as to do damage to none, and pro-
bably advantage to all. The modification which they
sought to introduce would not supersede the existing
system; and further than this, it would be a con-
cession to the religious views of all parties. He would
call upon the Government to regard these conscientious
convictions: not to do so was an act of tyranny. The
Noble Lord regarded this principle so far that he would
release a few from a durability, although there were but
forty thousand of the community in the country. He
ought then to consider the religious scruples of the
Church of Ireland. Was it to be argued because the
Church of Ireland had property that they should be ex-
cluded from these grants. Was not the Church of Eng-
landricher, and it participated in these grants? Could
it be pretenare that the Roman Catholics in this country
could complain of poverty? He saw churches, convents,
and monasterie; springing up on all sides. He did not
know whence the funds came, but he Ad not think they
were English. In Ireland there were 2,400 schools in
connexion with the Roman Catholics, and but 95 under
the control of the Church of Ireland. The Bible could
not be suspended.
Mr. E. H. STANLEY, after stating the difficulty
which he felt in replying to the speech of the Honour-
able -Member for the University of Dublin, said that he
recollected that the principle on which the revolution '
was eff,eted in Dublin was that of entire toleration. He
hoped the Hon. Member would extend to him the benefit
of that principle,. and wouldeolerete the conscientious
diffetenee of opinion which he entertained on this occa-
sion. He had been a little surprised to hear something
which was urged by the Hon. Gentleman. It was urged
by the iThn. Member for the University of Dublin that
the whole system of national education, as established in
1831, was irreligious and unscriptural. The Hon. Mem-
ber for Warwicksbire made a charge that they had, in
many instances, departed from the objectionable system.
Again, he had heard it stated—in fact, it seemed to be
assumed as a point on which no dispute or difference of
opinion could exist—that the Bible was excluded from
the national schools. He entertained serious doubts as
to the accuracy of that statement. He found that
the only sense in which it could be said
that' the Bible was excluded was this—that when
the 'Bible was read in the school Roman Catholic
children 'had the option of leaving the school. He
did not see bow the principle would be strengthened by
any regulation which would make it compulsory on
Roman Catholics to make it a rule to attend to reading
the Bible: It was a matter of some importance to con-
sider: two points; they ought to consider what was the
system snpersz3led by the new ones,' and, if they
abolished' the present system, what they were prepared
to substittre. He would endeavour to show the inten-
tionevitVedlaietiehi; national schools were established.
He found it was stated by the Secretary for Ireland in
1831, reserring to several previous Commissions, which
had issued on the subject of education, that the opinion
expressed by the' Commission of 1812 was, that no plan
of edpeation for Ireland, however wisely contrived in
other 1 espects' could be carried into operation if attempts
were made to disturb peculiar religious opinions. There
was a general concurrence of the Committees from 1812
down to the establishment of the national schools, that
no system feuudsd on proselytism could succeed in
Ireland. The Society for National Education in
Ireland in 1.786 was instituted in Ireland to give
instruction on liberal principles. The society was
inadequate to the wants of the people. In 1311 a
similar society was set on foot on a larger scale. The
principles of the Kildare-street Society, as he understood
them, were briefly these. The first principle was that
which his Hos. Friend in 1850 despaired of, viz., that of
a united education. Another principle was that the
Scriptures should be read, but read without note or com-
ment. The permission or injunction left absolutely un-
settlsd the whole of the difficulty of the question, for it
was left out of the question how mach should be read,
when it should be read, or by whom. The Kildare-
street Society fell almost into the hands of the Protest-
ants. The reading of the Scriptures at all hours, and
all places, was very general. Against such a system
the Roman Catholic population protested. It was de-
clared by .them, teat they did not intend to go upon any
proselytising principles ; but some years after their in-
stitution they united their efforts with those of another
society fir the diffusion of religious instruction called
the London Bible Society, who pretended to be what the
Kildare-street Society pretended not to be—proselytisers.
It very much altered the case when in 1812 the Govern-
meat took the Society in hand, and when they found
that it had not the least confidence of the Roman
Catholic population. 13eore the present syst?m of
national education was established. a full and searching
inquiry was made into the state of Ireland generally. In
the Committeeof 1830, llr. Musgrove was asked whether

the success of any scheme would- depend entirely on the
exclusion of sectirian or religious controversy? He said
he had established two schools, and had told the people
that if they wished to read the Scriptures they could do
so, but he wuuid not insist upon it. He thought it
likely that under that system the number of scriptural
readers would ultimately he increased, but not in the first
instance. Captain Rolt Owen gave exactly similar testi-
mony. Mr. Barrou stated that this condition of oblige.-
tory Scripture reading led to difficulties. It had not a
tendency to increase Scripture reading, quite the con-
trary; there never was a more effectual way of discou-
raging the reading of the Scriptures. Again, Mr. Dufaur
said that he had long been of opinion that compulsory
reading was not likely to attain the object for which it
was intended. Here were three successive testimonies ex-
actly to the same effect, but there was another testimony
which was invaluable, that of R. R. Doyle, Roman Ca-
tholic Prelate, who said that the societies in Dublin
10:pith had been f amded to promote education were
attended by none of the Roman Catholics. They had
been the sources of numerous complaints between in-
feriors and superiors. Altogether they have been pro-
ductive of much evil and discord, and he thought it de-
sirable that they should he put an end to. There was
not one particle of evidence on the other side ; but the
testimony entirely confirmed the opinion which he had
formed, that various jealousies were produced by the
Kildare school. Thie was a prima facie ground for
saying that the system ought to be altered. In the
very last report as to the Kildare-street schools, he
found it stated the: "40 of these; schools were in Mun-
ster, 112 in Cennanoht, 247 in Leinster, and 2,112 in
Prote.tant Ulster. In the report on this subject which
was made two years ago, he found, that out of the whole
amber who attended these schools, more than half
were Roman Catholics. Considering, then, what was
the whole population of Ireland, was it not manifest
that schools attended in equal numbers by Horn 111
Catholics and Protestants, must be schools which did
not give equal benefits to the whole population? Ho
had not heard from any Honourable Gentleman who
had spoken one single proposal to substitute anything
else. He would not enter into a defence of the
existing system of schools; he would say they bad
worked incomparably better than any system which had
preceded them in Ireland. What were the means of
education which it was possible to adopt ? It was cer-
tainly possible to give secular education. It was equally
possible to eeteblish schools for the exclusive benefit of
the,Proteetante. That, he apprehended, was not desired
by. any gentleman in the House. What, then, was the
alternative ? Only one. They had it in their power to
!ones", the system that, under different circumstances,
410, to a certain extent, been carried on in England, and
establish separate schools fur Roman Catholic and Pro-
te"ult education- He thought the system of united edu-
cation to be a very important one. But he had another
objection, and that an important one. He said that in
the part of Ireland with which he himself was ac-
quainted—that in two-thirds of Ireland, throughout the
wide-spread country, in which the Roman Catholic popu •
lation had a predominant majority, the sole effect of
establishing separate schools for. Protestants and Roman
Catholics would be to deprive the Protestant population
of the benefit of education at, all. In the neighbourhood
with which he was acquainted, Tipperary, the Roman
Catholic population was in the proportion of 200 to 1.
If they were to establish separate schools they would not
be able to get a sufficient number of Protestant children.
In order to establish a school for 200 they would have
to bring them a distance of twenty miles. Therefore, he
said, the only system which he had yet heard any
pro-
posal to substitute for that which now existed was ins.
practicable and undesirable, and feeling that he should
vote against. the motion.
Lord JOHN MANNERS said that in the few ob-
servations which he should offer to the House he should
e
abstain from saying one word as to the merits of th
respective., systems of education that had prevailed in
Ireland. Tne question before the House was, what was
the best practical educational system? That was in some
degree a Church question. The difference between
the educational systems of England and Ireland, was
extremely perplexing. He entertained great doubts
whether the ey stern in Ireland was a combined system
of education, lie thought that when they talked of the
combined'system they talked of a system which virtually
did not exist. In the town of Armagh there were two
schools. , The one. was entirely devoted to Roman
Catholic children, and the other to the children of Pro-
testant... No man gould be compelled to do that to
which his conscience objected. One man says that the
State can provide a system to educate all the children
in the country; .and another men doubts that. One
man upon voting money for educational pur-
poses in Ireland, said that Government was
bound to disregard the feelings of the people,
and unother said the reverse. As a Member of the
nutted Church of England and Ireland, he could not be '
ireliffeeent to the feelings of the Church of Ireland, and
when the venerable primate of that Church, and 1,700
of the clergy and laity expressed their sentiments in a
petition tp that House, ho hoped that they would not be
disregarded. , They asked for equal • justice and
facilities for educating their own children, and, con-
curring in their views, he would give his hearty support
to the Motion,
4sr. F4l-0-44‘ Niieli!thet such_ a change as. that de-
sired`in the system of education in Ireland would be
extremely dangerous. In this country each atiaociatien •