The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

teres
ibiLl33'

the previous evening, but, unfortunately, his sentiment
hconcession had reached its utmost limits had gone
e to the country, and the Irish people believed that
7flas in earnest when he made that declaratio .
The Honourable Baronet said he deprecated the
" meat of a military Government in Ireland, be-
the that in any country it would be attended with
• e IllOst lamentable effects ; but his own words were
'fleensi
stent with his professions. It was now the fashion
tti adopt a centralising system. He (Lord Clements) had
I,:sYs been opposed to that' system. In Ireland there
4,,trinisa,fooorOc'e policemen under 077 officers, and the whole
underthe control of a single individual.
lie'l,ll such a stem the greatest evils might be expected.
(If ,nad the bet authority for asserting that the police
Lieland resembled a military force, and that it was so
loseact for all practical purposes. This force was
.not
ddangerous to the liberty of the country. but it im-
er,un, a heavy burden on the Irish people. In the
waq-Y of Tipperary alone the cost of the police force
els-rmuPwards of 40,000/. The Right Hon. de-
tar 4 that he had no wish to continue the presentp mi
force in Ireland, but he manifested no disposition
the Whatever to reduce it. The great number of abuses in
re„, suPerannhations tended to show that the Govern-
thintt,did not contemplate any alteration. Considering
e ,„" toe Arms' Bill of last session was proposed to aid the
ilit7,stahulary force of Ireland, he thought they ought to
aen‘'!' seen that it was perfectly carried into effect. He
tia-j;,,e,(19 however, that such had been the case. The con-
kent-LurY officers had not even registered their own
i 0 081 and it was his intention to move for a return
w order to show that this statement was correct, There
ao n d
heya nr er of the most stringent character from the_
to r", 4, the police in Dublin, before there was any Act
gli,ntte the importation of arms into Ireland. Yet
1104 Police of Dublin anticipated the Act of Parliament,
clause" authority to search, at the very time that the
$e would
was under discussion in that House.—(Hear, hear.)
Aoswipuld now read to the House what he considered a
ett distressing case, under the operation of the Arms
aril; Mr. John Hall, who was licensed to make and sell
polis, in Aungier-street, Dublin, died last year, and the
tersee 4Dublin took possession of his stock before let-
Nita administration were taken out. Gentlemen op-
positei might laugh, but let them put themselves in the
th°n of the deceased man.—(Laughter.) Let them put
emselves in the gun-maker's case.—(A laugh.) Let
lie,4 put themselves in the widow's case.—(Great
'apotter.) He would not tire the House with dwelling
have a hardship, with which gentlemen opposite could
the e"" sYmpathy.—(Hear, hear.) They had shown in
theiruarse of the evenin7 that they had sympathies for
and vOwn 6111 SS, but they had none for a bereaved widow
then, I,e oppressed orphans. But he would now state to
Was.".t,a,e case of a gentleman—Colonel Hodder—who
e '-'atted upon to pay a duty of 21. 12s. Gd. for a license
did "IT his own gun into Ireland. But Colonel Hodder
*-'ftnot think the gun was worth the cost of the license.
4`,liear, hear, and laughter.) Gentlemen would laugh,
it a 'night laught again.—(Renewed laughter.) But was
1110 ',flatter of laughter that the principal provisions of
,ert.tAct had been neglected by the officers of the Go-
-4ely,,lne°t, the officers of the army, and the police them-
in er The Act provided that it should be proclaimed
hkevelY county. But in the county which he
no tu3 honour to represent, there had been
er
aentt, aei amation.—(Hear, hear.) The officers of the
dor,,,J "ad not registered their arms, nor had the police
tear" (Hear, hear.) He could come to the law of
on which he would say no more (because an
the hrY was :going on upon the subject) than this—that
triorA-7 of distress and ejectment required alteration
to titan any other of which the people of Ireland had
lalu'atalllaim. He had himself known cattle of
ofthe
-.4°1 25/. to be taken away and sold for a debt 3/.
tts s.P.r: hear.) In the case of con-acre, the grievance
4041.'1,11 more serious. The hardship pressed severely
'CO; ttbnePoor, and required alteration far more than
Jive law of ejectment. He had the misfortune to
he reit,ngst the- poorest part of the population, and
they e.etted to say that the poorer they were, the more
dat;vere oppressed.--(Hear, hear.) There was hardly
Peoe4 Passed that he did not hear of complaints from the
°f Cases of the most flagrant oppression and unjust
tiniteet on the part of the magistracy. He admitted
for s (-_,O subject of con-acre was one of great difficulty
evil shat
to handle. Still it was so great an
io hi,-at something should be done. He had done all
froilt-trxwer to dissuade the people in his neighbour-
'44 "is species of gambling. But food was such a
qta(„a,°loll_gst them that they would run any hazard to
Nve,„- flt• He thought it would be very much to the
akvin—age of the people of Ireland if the gentlemen
L'ilbjergiPr„oPerty there would turn their attention to the
uette„-",,°' eon-acres. As matters now were, it was far
taark• ior the poor man to purchase his potatoes in the
\lnt ep.th,.411 to go in debt to possess the doubtful ad-
elil,lhoi a con-acre. The system was fraught with
goat led to continuous discontent and quarrelling.
04,,„elitiCTriall when speaking of the poor of Ireland
referi:ed to the Roman Catholic population.
Illetati Present instance he did not mean to do so. He
'Non to advocate the case of the poor Protestant popu-the _
Ito' Whose sufferings were equally great as those of
'eat d man Catholics. The Protestant poor of the pre-
Ivlter,„4 Y in Ireland were men who had fallen from a state
Rate -oin they possessed a competence and comfort into a
7atiluf abject misery and distress, in consequence of the
that e of legislation which was adopted in respect to
as tOtintrY. He alluded to the class who were known
iastsenaiddle-men in former times. He recollected an
3at l'ee in which a gentleman who had formerly
Jilt, with him (Lord Clement) on the Grand
thal'l,,llui fallen into such a state of poverty
ofd had
wife, who had been educated as a lady,
ra_ been accustomed to the luxuries of a lad Ally
was now obliged to milk her own cows.
e evils were to be attributed to ill-directed
hot stio. The passing of one measure alone would
10 :Pet' that state of things. The Legislature,
htehty-er to' effect any good, must be ap.xiously
of th 'l,ll to improve the means, and foster the industry
e People. Then, with respect to education, he must
eeeatheirnfot
rtdhi(-
that unless the Government-were prepared to adopt
thrown
Wyse),
sleas),t night bai the Hon. Member for
thto establish colleges throughout
sceountry, for the gentry and middle classes, be thought
ly'q who were now studying in the national-schools
I,(`lia4itle far. outstrip in information and intelligence. those_
onsidered themselves far superior to them in rank.
thereev,.was also another subject of complaint ; it was the
k`TTIn in which many of the parishes were with re-
ohe religious. instruction. In the pariah next to the
was .0 Which he lived the rector was an absentee. It
postPpossible that the curate could do all the duty im-
no Ce.,1113,0n him, and thus many who paid tithes received.
he thQuefit whatever. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
tendinught, were at fault in the matter. It was by at-
g t° such subjects as those he had mentioned, and
ivc,4ll,State prosecutions, that the people of Ireland
lahlish°e,c9nie satisfied, and peace and tranquillity be es-
.)4r. in the country.
Plant "DUNG said that one of the subjects of com-
down, enumerated by the Noble Lord who had just sat
which. Was the Arms Bill. That was a measure
might neededh,s no vindication ; but, if it did, he
made, the allowed to state one fact, viz., that
kilns le old system there were only 10,000 stand of
the lissletgiatered, while, under the system established by
kiotermArnts Bill there were 120,000 stand of arms re-
a° much for the alleged grievance of the Arms
seemed -e Point on which the main difference of opinion
`ice 44 to exist, appeared to be this—that on the oppo •
tihe prof.e of the House they were willing to do away with
-"„l,enihe,,stant Establishment in Ireland, and that Hon.
"Itae °n his side were not willing to do so. On the
tee larfal,",e, in the course of this debate, much stress had
'tht 11" a sentiment which fell last session from the
ne Eti,,2llourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home
1.-"ellt• He referred to the words that concession
(" tie-cached its point, and could go no further.—
‘'hea'tri hear," from the Opposition benches.) Now,
Lsedle Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had
1-hare these words, it was in reference to the Catholic
uN
.1, and not to the sister country. So, too, had it
ka„ ci(Plained last evening by that Right Hon. Gentle-
" 4,415e1f• And he was perfectly right in so using
Oct
the declaration would have the most ex
-44 . How could it be expected, after all that
tish he den said and done by Mr. O'Connell, but that he
to do away with the dignities and emoluments of
k'tablish Church?ed The emoluments of that
4h(l eth" had beeen d d with no unsparing hand;
,4°°,ishea",. were lice
Lanes so great as its enemies
;'4lif p- itue wo Idyt nob
believe. Nor were those who
att:d ther o
Church
e Establishmentve. in Ireland sub-
rserl'atr the annoyances and insults which had been
bi4hOpr; Church-rates had been abolished, several
"en i-;4 been reduced, a portion of the tithes had
1.1,113-inen °P, the other portion was paid by the land-
-.°4 wen- an agreement as to the rent, and, if that por-
and ,(I"tre taken off, the gain would be to the landlords
~(41v es to any other class
therewhateve.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
"le le-ale to th t
*huh ,ous„ a_ wle was
h eal question before
6,,v• It was whether the principles of the party
p +. •
b now the majority in that House were such as
.w‘diu;eititztiebpalrilittheoftest of reason and justice—whether they
aa tha accordance with the enlightenment of the age
the British Constitution. Now, it was
'Nay n all hands that the grievances which afflicted
that all iwere not of easy or speedy cure; and he believed
Zhieh partial men were of opinion that the party to
\itnnamit7 belonged were doing their best to lay the
"aistr
n for this cure. But it was asserted by the late
'"Aitlyelarihinwtheir usual offhand way, that all the evils
think were Young) did
of easy remedy. Be (Mr.
ion residence
,for did those who best knew
.the country...
'smence in it. The two most prominent evils of
14 .hands h b
1,44 g t e found in the evidence of Mr. Drummond,
-tent -mil° man had exercised a more sound judg-
tara :regard to her affairs, or evinced a sincerer re-
elite ,Vr lamentedgentleman had de.
'That of
dash,e4,tlLat.ii,e chief evils were a bad
secret societies workingmass which,
titles whietiiu
~ert?r, had become recklesse.n a wthe reme-
hadedesigned for
tire:ye:pis
w"eZearntientetents of latey
ad ni'straetiaorns of justice, an im-
• teaalonsYstem of consrtalmilarn; a poor-law, and an ex-
`aid te °I. national education. Now could it be fairly
th,tr. ',tat the present Government host The
efforts to `c }teen wanting
adtai .carry out these remedies?-- \--1 dear, hear.)i
°flat- ministration of justice had been gre‘tly
iinreyedu.
Illitt:a'4e"s, and the late Government, he fairly
;411„aLso,_improved the coustabulary force,. though
Riricost that it was maw one of the most
yaw toreo,„ in (1. the 0 Europe. The next remedy, the poo.rto-
- Jo h!. ry owed to the Noble Lord opposi
toe, to he fitussol.l), and he thought that Ireland ought
Is_
that;re,irhya t law
most grate sd to him for it, for he believed it
• 1417 h pacleovernolliir_ablY suited to the habits' and genius of the
pie.
was receiving. from the Tiresent
in d°nbt support al; d encouragement, and hp had
Mt(' and hy their Zostering care it tad got
the vast Tam devel6pment, it would produce all
e were advantages of which it was capable. But.
'4005 :re other
°. whichadvantages, besides its own intrinsic
44 iling to afford was being made capable. It was be-
edihfrst, a nucleus for other societies, whose pro-
Lo,esecrtien4enelslabours would be productive of excellent
•. Alreamany dy
agricultural societies had
'vnut Into existence by its agency, many others

were about to be formed, and there could be not doubt that
their results would have.tkehappiest effect on the resoui ces
and industry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Then there
was the system of national education—a measure on
which certainly much difference of opinion had pre-
vailed in that (louse and throughout the country. That
measure had received the best support from the present
Government of the country, although he was s-irry to
say at the expense of some political support, and con-
siderable political popularity. 'They were indebted also
to the present Chief Secretary of Irel•uid (Lord Eliot)
for two measures which he knew would confer
great advantages on• Ireland—he alluded to the
measures for the improvement Of inland naligfttion,
and the encouragement of the most important branches
of national education.—(Hear, hear.) Of the evils to
which he had adverted, the combination of workmen,
and the existence of secret societies must be looked upon
as the greateSt. He was ready to admit that these societies
had no direct political object. But though he would admit
this, they were all acquainted how, in that country, by
some insidious means or other, agitation connected itself

with disaffection, from whence sprung, at all times, a

tendency to disturbance. These matters always, some-
how or other, merged in agitation, disaffection,
and disturbance. Taking this view of the consequences
of agitation, it was evidently the duty of Government
to suppress it in every way, and it was on this account
that he rejoiced at the institution of the recent trials
and.the success which attended them. There had been
_ .

much forbearance exhibited by the Ministry hefore in-
stituting these trials, and many persons had blamed
them for it, but he confessed he thought they had exer-
cised a sound discretion. But fo"rbearance must have
its limit,- although the grand difficulty was to fix where
that limit should be. It might have been drawn at
one' meeting or at another meeting ; but this he
would not hesitate to say, that at whatever time it was
drawn there would have been found plenty of Members
on the other side of the House to mark it with disappro7
bation.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said by the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) that these measures
would not produce permanent tranquillity, and that to Mr.
O'Connell and his friends, and to them alone, was owing
the present peace in Ireland. Now, he begged to say
that that opinion was by no means shared in by men.
who lived in Ireland, and who had the very best means
of judging what was desirable for her welfare and ne-
cessary for her peace. It was the opinion of these men,
watching with unceasing anxiety the course'of events in
that country, that they owed nothing of good, nothing
of peace, and nothing of tranquillity to Mr. O'Connell,
but rather a sense of danger to them all --(llear, hear.)
They thought certainly that Ireland had made great
progress of late years, but that progress was by no
means owing to the causes or the persons pointed out
by, Hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House.
That prosperity was mainly owing to the vast
extension of steam navigation. encouraging com-
munication, and developing her natural advantages and
industrial energies to a wonderful degree.—(Cheers.)
But they were told to rely on the popular leaders for
the peace and prosperity of Ireland. True, at various
public meetings Mr. O'Connell had made great promises
on this head. He had said that when the union was re-

pealed there would be universal peace and happiness in
Ireland. Yes, there was to, be fixity of tenure, and
every other blessing; whilst on the ruins of the Estab-
lished Church, should be raised the standard of univer-
sal freedom and toleration. He would quote, as a
parallel to the speeches of Mr. O'Connell, one little para-
graph from a man who, like that agitator, had in another
country wielded " the fierce democracy." It ran thus :
"People have by their conduct confounded all their
enemies ; not one has been shot in the struggle; not one
drop of blood has been shed ;—how worthy of the en-
lightened people among whom it rose." Were not these
words identical with those which generally marked the
speeches of Mr. O'Connell ? Undoubtedly they were.
And the words he had quoted were those used by
Robespierre, at the breaking out of that Revolution
which deluged France with blood, and handed over her
people to those fiendish tribunals which had for ever
earned an infamous nototiety to the period in her his-
tory known as the Reign of Terror.—(Hear, hear.)
He was firmly convinced that of the thousands who at-
tended the great meetings at Tara, and other places,
there was not one who was not persuaded that the, re-

peal was to be carried by their mere appearance at those
meetings, and the speeches made there. But he was
sure that there was a fund of good sense in the Irish

people that would, now they saw those meetings were
opposed to the Constitution, induce them to refrain from
such proceedings.
Sir G. GREY said, whatever difference of opinion might
exist as to some of the topics that had been introduced
into this debate, whatever difference of opinion might be
found in that House as to the policy of her Majesty's
Government with regard to Ireland, and as to the mea-
sures which the present state of that country demanded,
he thought there was one point on which the House
was agreed—there was one point on which no difference
could exist—he meant as to the important crisis under
which the motion of his Noble Friend had been sub-

mitted to the consideration of the House.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") It had not been denied by the
Right llonourable Baronet the Secretary of State,
or by any gentleman who had addressed the House,
that there was deep and wide-spread excitement and
dissatisfaction in the great bulk of the population of
Ireland.(Hear, hear.) It had not been denied that
Ireland was now occupied by a military force—that it
was held by military occupation.—(Hear, hear.)lndeed,
if any difference of opinion did exist upon this point,
he would say the case had been still stronger put by
the Right Hon. Baronet himself than by his
Noble Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet stated in
distinct and emphatic terms last night, and he would not
question the accuracy of that statement—that such was
the risk of that portion of her Majesty's dominions—
such was the emergency of affairs in that part of the
kingdom, that this military occupation waA rendered
necessary by an attempt to wrest the country by
physical power from the authority of the British
Crown. Under these circumstances, his Noble Friend
asked the House not for a Select Committee of

inquiry, but, adopting the constitutional mode usually
taken at such a crisis, he asked the House to consent to
resolve itself into a Committee, by which the whole
state of Ireland might be duly weighed and considered ;
he took this step to enable them to express their sense
of the importance of the crisis which had ar-
rived, and to express their determination to
take such measures as might. avert the ^ cala-

mity of Ireland being separated from the British
Crown. And on what grounds, he would ask, did the
Government invite the House to reject the motion of his
Noble Friend? What grounds of hope or encourage-
ment for the future—(Cheers)—were stated by the Right
Hon. Baronet, in his speech of last night, or by the only
other Member of the Government who had addressed the

House—the Hon. Member who had just sat down ? He
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to
this continued military occupation of any portion of her
Majesty's dominions ; that he stated that he did not
look to that as the permanent remedy for the evils that

afflicted that country, or for the perManent security of
that portion of the empire. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated this; but the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down said that the population of Ire-
land did look to the army for the maintenance
of public peace and security. He would ask, what were
the measures which the Government contemplated ?
What course of policy were they ready to lay before the
House, as the one they were determined to pursue, that
would enable any reasonable man to think, taking the
policy they had hitherto pursued, that it was one likely
to win back the affections of the people of Ireland, which
had been alienated from the Imperial Parliament ?
whether it was one calculated to detach one man from
the ranks of the repeal agitation ?—(Loud cheers.) Ire-
land, it was admitted, was occupied by military force.
There was some confusion as to figures last night, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman elicited a cheer from his
supporters by attempting to show that there had been
but a comparatively small increase in the military force
stationed in Ireland. Why, from the figures laid on
the table of the House, it appeared that on the Ist
of January, 1844, as compared with the Ist of January,
1843, there had been an increase of 7,000 rank and file
—(Loud cheering)—to the-army in that country ; yet a
cheer was elicited last night by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, by a statement that there had been no increase in
the army. The Noble Lord on the opposite side (Lord
Stanley), with that great zeal which distinguished him
when he spoke in defence of any Government
of which he happened to be a member,
would probably share the sense of security which
the Government felt from the display of this large force,
provided and guided by the master hand and the master
mind—(Loud cheers)—and would express his confidence
in the efficiency of the portion of her Majesty's troops
stationed in Ireland for the maintenance of the public
tranquillity in that country, and to effect, for some time
at least, that security for which the Right Honourable
Gentleman relied upon the army.—(Hear.) The
House must recollect that there had been an
increase of 7,000 men, rank and file, during the last few
months in Ireland in addition to the naval force.—
(Loud cheers)—stationed on the coast—in addition to a
battalion of marines.—(Loud cheers.) He did not find
the slightest fault with the Government for this. In
the state to which Ireland was brought, it was the duty
of the Government to provide such a force.--
(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He
quite concurred with those Hon, Gentlemen that
in the state to which Ireland was reduced
under that Government, of which they were the sup-
porters—(Cheers from the Opposition)—he was quite
free to admit, that in such a state of affairs it was the
duty of the Government to maintain the authority of
the Crown, and the security of the British Empire.- But
was this military occupation to be a permanent system ?
If it was not to be a permanent system, what was to be
the change in the policy which had produced this state
of things, what was to be the future course of the Go-
vernment ? On what means did they intend to rely for
the maintenance of the tranquillity of Ireland and the
security of the British Empire ? He would not at the
present moment allude to any of the specific measures
which had been mentioned as being hi contemplation.
The Right Hon. Baronet had addressed the House in an
able and elaborate speech, as all his speeches
were, find he was happy to be able to add
his epiniopt that it possessed one quality which
he wished his speeches had possessed when
the Right Hon. Baronet sat on these benches.—(Loud
cheers.) It possessed the quality of being remarkably
calm and temperate.—(Cheers.) lie must do the Right
Hon, Gentleman the credit of saying that, speaking
under,the sense of that awful responsibility which rested
upon him as the particular Minister. responsible for the
peace
of Ireland, lie had in his speech carefully avoided
any expression that could tend to increase the present
irritthat he wished that at the time when the Right lion.
t 111.09 or excite angry feelings. He could only' say
tb whom lie acted, sat on these,
obi —he t
e had alwayst
used 14nguage temp er.aatt
those tGlienn
ot
pe mp
oasni
t,
e
ge t
illeinldbetint"clisie Wles (Loud
hell
ua gentlemen hadh then
feared that the lang
the minds of the Irish
eq
used had sunk top (ll into e Y
people to be soon forgotten. ( Cheers.) The speech of

the Right Hon. Gentleman consisted of two parts ; the
first was -a defence of -the —Government against the
charges preferred against it with-reference to the re-
cent measures adopted in Ireland. The second part
related to the future policy of the Government with re-
gard to that country. Upon the first of theSe subjects
h should w;sh to address, in the first instance, a few
observations to the house. The Eight Hon. Gentleman
feeling, probably, that the administratiOn of justice was
a subject in which the House and the country felt a
d (.p and sensitive interest, and feeling the force of the
observations made in that House and out of it with re-

~aid to certain proceedings in the late trials Which had
taken place in Ireland, addressed himself, in the first in-
stance, to a defence of the Government with respect to
the exclusion of all Catholics from the jury by which
the traversers, in the Court of Queen's
_Bench in Ireland,
were lately tried. Upon that subject he was bound to
state, taking up the question at that point at which the
Crown Solicitor found himself in the room and called on
to strike that jury, he was not prepared to say that he,
acting on the part of the Government, could have adopted.
any other course.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial
benches. He would say nothing at the present moment
as to the policy of the Government instituting these
prosecutions, which necessarily involved such a result.—
(Loud cheers.) That wits a point for future and separate
consideration, but he was prepared to say this, that if,
as seemed admitted, in eight out of ten Roman
Catholics found in a list of forty-eight, one was a
member of the Repeal Association, and if of the re-
maining two one of them, though not a member of the
Association, was stated or believed at the time to have
signed a requisition, calling one of those multitu-
dinous meetings which was to be held at Tara—
the proceedings of which were to furnish a portion of
the evidence for the prosecution, he was bound to say
that with regard to nine out of the ten the Crown. Soli-
citor would not have discharged his duty had he allowed
them to remain on the jury.—(Cheers.) With regard
to the others, 'the Right Hon, Gentleman stated, and as
he pledged his own word to the fact, he was willing to
give credit to the statement they were believed to be
Protestants, and for reasons known to the Government,
but which reasons the Right Hon. Gentleman did not
feel called on to disclose; they were struck off the list
quite irrespective of their being Catholics or Protes-
tants. But if this were a statement of facts, what were
they to say of the admission it-involved of the state of
Ireland ?—(Cheers.) A great State prosecution was in-
stituted after months of deliberation and observation by

the Government, with all the solemnity which must
at-
tend such a proceeding ; the eyes of all England, Scot-
land, and Europe, being fixed upon it, and it being
one by which the integrity of the empire might
be' affected. The trial took place in the metropolis
of a country of which seven-,eighths of the inhabitants
were Roman Catholics, and not . one Catholic could be
found in the metropolis of that country, whose sympa-
thies were not enlisted on the side of the traversers—on

the side of the men whose crime they were called on to
investigate.—(Loud cheers.) They were not excluded
from the jury because they were Catholics, but because
they were supposed to have feelings in common with
the accused. Such a defence might be a good one for
an attorney in a petty case, but it proved here that the
indictment was not, against O'Connell and the other tra-
versers, but against the whole Catholic population of
the country.—(Loud cheering) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman stated that the majesty of the law had been
triumphant, and he gave the Government credit for the
fact, that they were not then asking for military law for
the people, or for a Coercion Act. If they had been
asked for such measures, he should have been
among their opponents. He was, therefore,
bound to give them credit for not taking such a course;
but did not the Right Hon. Gentleman know that under
the forms of law great injustice must be committed ?
Did he not know that the moral effect of a verdict did
not consist in an adherence to the rigid forms of law,
and that there were circumstances in which the moral
effect of a verdict was lost by the apparent partiality of
the tribunal before which the case was tried?—(Loud
cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had illustrated his
case last night, by reference to some actions which
might be brought against the master of a pack of hounds
for trespass, or the case of an individual against whom
a lay impropriator of tithes might bring an action for
the recovery of the amount of his tithes. He (Sir James
Graham) had asked if such a person could be blamed for
striking off the jury list every person who was a lay
impropriator of tithes. But let him (Sir. George Grey)
ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether, if the action
was tried under circumstances in which, notwithstanding

that the defendant had struck off those lay impropriU;
tors from the jury list, the jury nevertheless were at
last composed exclusively of lay impropriators—whether
he, for a moment] believed that, however the verdict
might be according to the evidence—hOwever
picion the jury might be in their indidvidual capacity,
or far from auy reproach of wrong doing—that that
verdict would carry with it the moral weight it ought,
or be looked on as a fair decision of the case that had
been submitted to them? But he would not stop to
discuss that illustration, or the other case put by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, of a trumpery action of trespass
against a master of hounds. A skilful attorney in such
a case might certainly take every pettifogging advan •
tage—(Cheers)—which his knowledge of the law should
enable him to do, and perhaps he would not do his duty
to his client unless lie did so ; but let them remember
that this was a great State trial, and that then they
were engaged in a solemn case of the administration of
criminal justice. The Government was proceeding
against traversers who were for the most part Catholics,
on their trial on a charge of the most important nature,
to be adjudicated upon in a country where party feeling
and religious animosity ran higher than in any other
country on the face of the earth, and yet
the jury who tried them was composed of
men opposed to them in religious opinion, and it might
he supposed diametrically adverse to them in political
creed. Then as to the course which the Government

had pursued With regard to tho great meetings Which
were held from time to time, ending with the prodama-
tion against the meeting at Clontarf.—(Hear, hear.)
Through a great length of time the Government re-
mained passive spectators of those meetings.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord had approved, as no doubt the House
would approve, of the sending troops from time to time
to maintain the public security. But they looked on at
those multitudinous meetings, which the Right Hon.
Gentleman said long before the meeting at Clontarf were
held with military array, andimder all the circumstances
which he so forcibly detailed, and which were socalculated
to inspire terror and great alarm—they looked on at those
meetings without issuing a single pioclamation to warn
those deluded victims of agitation—(as the Right Hon.
Gentleman styled them)—of the consequences of attend-
ing those. meetings.—(Hear, hear.) That • conduct on
the part of the Government led them to suppose that,
so long as they preserved the peace unbroken-;;-while
no act of violence was committed—while they kept
within the law—the Government would not interfere
with the meetings.-7(Hear, hear.) The people thought
that they were doing, everything consistent with the
law.—(Hear,hear.) Such was the course (according to
the. Right on. Gentleman) up to the eventful week,
beginning on the 6th of October—(Hear, hear)—and
the people thought that nothing else would be done with
respect to the meeting at Clontarf, and those other five
or six meetings which the Right Hon. Gentleman told
them were announced to be held—(Hear, hear)—
had not, fortunately for the Government, a sort
of military proclamation been transmitted to
London on the 29th of September.—(Loud cheering.)
It was clear that there had been. no intention of inter-
fering with that meeting had not what had been called
the military proclamation appeared, containing the
magic words " half distance," " muster," and " troops."
—(Cheers and laughter.) The Lerd Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland were absent from their posts.
It was clear, therefore, that nothing like any interruption
with this series of meetings had been contemplated, and
that the Clontarf meeting would not have been inter
rupted had it not been for this dispatch, which had been
sent to the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, it appeared, had immediately summoned to
the Home-office the law officers of the Crown, the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
That meeting had been held at the Home-office on Mon-
day, and although the Right Hon.,Gentleman had not told
them what had taken place at that meeting; he presumed
that there had been discussion, and also some disagree-
ment, for they had come to no decision, but had ad-
journed to Tuesday ; and notwithstanding the serious
objections which many Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite
had to adjourned debates in the House of Commons,
they had again adjourned that meeting from Tuesday to
Wednesday. Then it appeared . that another pro-
clamation had arrived—the amended proclamation,
relating to the Clontarf meeting ; and the Right Hon.
.Gentleman and the Lord Lieutenant, and Lord Chan-
cellor of Ireland, and the Attorney and Solicitor-Gene-
rals, were employed during the whole of the Tuesday and
the Wednesday, in comparing the verbal and literal dis-
crepancies between the two proclamations, and whether
the alteration of " troops," into " goups," and the sub-
stitution of " ward," for . wardens,'` would not make it
too hazardous for them to attempt to stop the
Clontarf meeting.—(Cheers.) If they had been cer-
tain that the repeal proclamation had emanated from
Mr. O'Connell and the Repeal Association, it appeared
that they would have had no hesitation on the subject,
but an amended copy had come over, which, in their
opinion, had rendered it extremely hazardous to in-
terfere with the meeting at Clontarf. The discussion at
the Home-office ended without coming to any decision.
It was determined that the Lord-Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland should proceed to Ireland
on the Thursday. He would ask why they
had not been instantly sent off if the Govern-
ment had determined on taking any steps with
regard to that meeting ? Why was a moment lost
in making arrangements after it had been determined
to put a stop to the agitation ; and why was there an
instant of delay in warning the people not to attend that
meeting ?—(Cheers.) He did not know whether the
Noble Lord concurred in the strictness with which the
observance of the Wednesday was enforced in another
place.—(Cheers and laughter.) It appeared that if a
Wednesday intervened when an interesting de.
bate was adjourned, that that debate must be ad-
journed over the Wednesday, in order not to
interfere with the usual mode of spending that
day in social enjoyment.—(Cheers and laughter.) On
Thursday it appeared that the Lord Lieutenant and the
Lord Chancellor of Ireland had quitted London, but
what had they carried with thein.—(Cheers and laugh-
ter.) It might have been supposed that they would
have carried with them a proclamation to have been
issued on the instant of their landing, a proclamation
which had been agreed upon previously by the Minis-
ters of the Crowu assembled at the Home-office, warn-
ing the people of Ireland against attending that meet-
ing.—(Cheers.) They were, however, charged with
no proclamation. Nol They were only charged with
certain fixed principles upon which said the Right Hon.
Gentleman, they were desired to act.—(Laughter.) It
appeared flint the Lord Lieutenant and the Chancellor,
charged with those ftga prinpiples—(Cheers and laugh-
ter)—had arrived in Ireland on the Eriday. A Privy