The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-19 00:00:00

IRELAND.

Earl FITZWILLTAM (in continuation from our
Third Edition last night) proceeded to say—lt was not
perhaps, the crime of the British Legislature alone, but
of the great growing power of the British community,
of which those in office were only the administrators.
He was told that a proposition of supporting a Catholic
clergy would be distasteful to the English people—the
Catholics themselves would not agree to it—that it
would excite the hostility of the Dissenters of England,
and that of the Presbyterians of Scotland. Now a man
met with many things distasteful to him between the
hour of his birth and the hour of his death. A nation
was not exempt from the fate of individuals. The
Dissenters of England, the Presbyterians of Scotland,
and the Irish Catholics might have to do many things
distasteful to them—even the Church of England itself
might be brought to feel that there might be something
even more disagreeable than being brought to give up
some small portion of that which had been hitherto
appropriated to that sect, of which the Right Rev. Pre-
lates were the ministers and ornaments. Notwithstand-
ing the rebuke he once received from a Right Rev. Pre-
late, he must persevere in saying that the Church of
England was but a sect—the Catholic Church was an-
other—the Presbyterians of Scotland, the Independents
of England, were all sects—and perhaps it might be a
bitter pill for that sect which had hitherto been the
dominant one, to feel that the time was not far distant
when some portionof those resources which had been ap-
plied to itself alone, should be appropriated, in a certain
degree, to the maintenance of other establishments. He
thought it was quite chimerical to talk •of making the
Irish priesthood stipendiary. Such a project would
never do. There would be rumours abroad which were

likely to impress upon some minds such a belief, but he
protested against making the Roman Catholic priesthood
pensioners. If anything was to be done, it was that
they should place the Protestant rector and the Roman
Catholic priest upon the same grounds, and give both an
equal interest in the peace and well-being of the coun-
try, and that the former should not assume airs to
himself while the other must be conscious of his
inferiority. What he wanted was to give a perfect
equality to the two great sects, and he could see
no great difficulty in accomplishing this. When it was
remembered that during the last 150 years, the eccle-
siastical property of Ireland had been entirely confis-
cated, and taken away from those who held it
originally, and applied to other purposes than its
first purposes, there was no man in the House so
visionary as to suppose that this exclusive Church
of Ireland would ever convert the people of Ire-
land. Such a vision was foolish, but if it ever
did present itself for a moment, he thought it must very
soon be banished, by reflecting on the years which have
rolled on, and the generations which have passed away,
without the slightest alteration in the state of the
Catholic religion of Ireland. On the contrary,
at the present moment, the Catholics of Ireland
had increased in numbers in a much greater ratio than
did the Protestants. If any inference could be drawn
from this—although he did not mean to do so—it would
be that the existence of the Established Church in Ire-
land, so far from increasing Protestantism, had been
calculated to increase the other sect. He thought that
justice to Ireland required that they should no
longer take possession of the whole ecclesiastical
property of Ireland, and apply that property to
the sole use and benefit of one sect, and that sect
the most wealthy and most able to provide them-
selves with the ministrations of religion. Until
there was something like a fair and equal
distribution of the Church property, there could
be no peace or happiness in that country.
It might not be done this session, it might not be done
the next, but they might depend upon it that the people
of this country, even the most prejudiced of them, must
make up their minds to do something on this subject.
It was the Roman Catholic question in another form.
Twenty years might pass away, but still it must be done.
He had heard certain wise men, or perhaps he might
say wiseacres, who had said that at the time of the
union the Roman Catholic question ought to have been
settled one way or the other. Now, there were certain
questions which could only be settled one way, and the
Roman Catholic question was one of them ; and the
present question also was one of the same sort. He
defied them to maintain the Church of England in Ire-
land in its present state. He wished to see the Protest-
ant religion maintained in Ireland—he wished to
see the Protestant parishes maintained—he wished
to see the property of those parishes main•
tamed, and applied parochially, He would have
nothing to do with spoliation, nor with taking property
for minor communities, to throw it into a sort of hodge-
podge, to be dealt with by the executive Government.
It was essential to the cause of liberty that these minor
corporations should be maintained. That which he de-
sired to see done might be easily done, if men would but
shake off their prejudices. He was no repealer, and he
trusted that England and Scotland would not find an
additional argument in favour of repeal by refusing to
do justiee to Ireland. What he wished to see done
would not abolish the Church of England in Ireland.
but would rather strengthen its foundations. He had
stated explicitly his sentiments on the subject, and
should conclude by presenting the petition.
The Duke of WELLINGTON thought that nothing
could be more inconvenient than raising a discussion of
this nature upon the mere presentation of a petition.
The discussion into which the Noble Lord had entered
embraced not only the state of the Protestant religion
in Ireland, and the . compact entered into for its
maintenance, but it referred to the whole foundation of
the Reformation in this country. The Noble Lord had
proposed a scheme, of the particulars of which he was
not exactly certain himself, neither was he certain as to
the period which it could be carried into effect, nor of
what might be its ultimate results ; but it went to the
repeal of all those laws on which the Reformation in this
country was founded, and he took the. opportunity of
warning their Lordships how they introduced measures
of this sort into the House ; they went not only to do
away with the religion of the country, as it was esta-
blished at the time of the Reformation, but to the sub-
version of that system of toleration which was founded
at the Reformation, and in the maintenance of which
every person of every religious persuasion was interested.
He implored their Lordships' not to encourage those
doctrines, which tended 'to destroy the laws upon which
the Reformation was founded. He begged them to re-
collect that the Church of Ireland had existed over a
period extending from 250 to near COO years. It was
maintained in that country for a century of constant
rebellion rand massacres, ending in a struggle for the
possession of the Crown. The Protestants maintained
the country, and kept possession of their Church.
That Church continued during another century, op-
posed and labouring under difficulties of all descriptions,
but still maintained.—(Hear, hear.) At the peried of
the union, the Parliament which had the power to con-
sent to that union stipulated that the Protestant Church
should be maintained.—(Hear, hear.) Their Lord-
ships entered into that compact, and they should never
lose sight of that fact.---(Hear, hear.) He implored
them not to be prevailed on to make any alteration in
that compact so long as they wished to maintain their
union.—(Hear, hear.) He thought they could not de-
part from the compact without a breach of faith as
great as had been committed in other countries, referred
to by a Noble Lord in the course of that evening.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He entreated them to listen
to none of those petitions or speeches, which tended
to the injury or destructiosi of the Protestant Church of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Let them do whatever was ne-
cessary to render the Church more beneficial, as a
whole, to the people of that country.—(Hear, hear.)
He entreated them again to adhere strictly, and accord•
ing to the letter, to the compact entered into with the
Irish Parliament in the Act of Union.—(Cheers.) The
Noble Earl said he was aware' that that was the feeling
of the people of this country, and he (the Duke of Wel-
lington) hoped that would be their opinion as long as
there was a spark of honour in this country.—(Hear.)
The Noble Duke concluded by again exhorting their
Lordships not to allow any infringement of the Act of
Union.

Earl FITZ WILLIAM thought the Noble Duke had
misapprehended him. He did not think that he had
said anything from which it could be inferred that he
meant to overthrow the laws on which the Reformation
was founded.-- Ho had only said that the parochial funds
should be applied to the payment of the Roman Catholic
as well as the Protestant clergy, whether in the Barony
of Ballysaxe, or any other Bally.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
The speech of the Noble Duke reminded him of the
syeeches he had heard before about the Coronation
Oath, and other fine things, which they were not
allowed to touch. He put the speech of the Noble Duke
in the same category ; and notwithstanding the Noble
Duke's warning he thought the time would come, and
many of their Lordships would live to see it, when with
the Noble Duke himself, or some following the steps of
the Duke in 1829—he had no more doubt of it than
that he was at that moment standing in that House—
an arrangement would be made for paying the Roman
Catholic priests.—(Hear, hear.) So that the warning
of the Noble Duke had not the slightest effect upon
; -
The Bishop of EXETER tendered hii sincerest thanks
to the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) for having made a

•
speech which had drawn from the Noble Duke aCe,l,,
liiigton) near to him an address V, hich entitled Wait:it
the gratitude of Protestant Christendom. Yet he 111,1 at
say that the subject itself had come upon him sonaew" t
suddenly; for in the usual notices of their proceedinglit
was stated simply that the Noble Earl had topresen,'
petition on the subject of Ireland; and, not conterned
with this, he had rambled into the state of Ireland a%
of the Protestant Church there. The Noble Earl.,sslof
he would have nothing to do with the srolisu°',o
Church property ; he would not centralise it, but alt
it to be spent where it was derived. And how sPeDbe..
It was, according to the Noble Lord, to be divided
_t
tween the Roman Catholic priest and the Protests
rector, or rather the Protestant rector was to be stripe
in order to endow the Roman Catholic priest.
Noble Earl seemed to treat the question of spolist','s'r
lightly, but spoliation might assume a very forrnid!''ri
character, and that even to the senses of the Noble .
himself. Suppose those Noble Lords who had been ono
riched by the hand of spoliation, years and years e
were called upon tb disgorge, in order to suPPLYI,Dre'
wants of the poor in the very parishes w' „
the spoliation had taken place, how would the.'
like it ? In the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam)
self ; in another Noble Earl near him ,i``.o
believe the Earl of Besborough was alluded to), Iln
the Noble Marquis (Lansdowne) also rear him, he ,;s-,0
three Noble Lords who occupied a much larger
of confiscated property, than did the Church itself in 11;1
of the three counties where their estates were situst,o
—(Laughter.) And those were the individuals
talked so loudly of justice, and so loosely of spolia__„tit
sv and whose estates had been granted to them by the --
sacred and inviolable law, that had awarded the Prt;.;
wciu
perty to the Protestant Church ! He admonished la
Noble Earl to be careful of his sayings. But he ~
not only be his monitor—he would venture, on this c'et'be
sion, to assume the character of prophet ; and iri was
spirit of prophecy,.he would say that if spoliation
made on Church property, spoliation on private propel-Li
would speedily follow. He tendered his humble so,"0
most heartfelt thanks to the Noble Duke; and lie (tu
Right Rev. Prelate) believed that of all the servi he
which that great man had rendered to his country laa
had never conferred greater services on it, than he
that night.—(A laugh.) L
The petition was then ordered to lie on their °
ships' table.
• Lord LILFORD presented a petition from the oporfoa;
tive silk weavers of the township of Leigh, ProYing• to
the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire illue
their case. He,would move for the appointment or
Committee Lord FEVERSHAM presented a petition, but-nei
its object, nor the place wh.ence it proceeded, could
heard i the allr.
Their Lordships then adjourned at a Quarter t°
Seven o'clock.

.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 18.
FACTORIES BILL—COMMITTEE—AD'
JOURNEDBATE. a
Mr. WARBURTON (in D neatcion from our Thir
Edition last night)—He had his eyes fully open t° tilde
alternative to which the Noble Lord (Howick) bad St'gg
they would ultimately be reduced, of not merely hand
a
a Ten Hours' Bill, but in every manufacturing town I:,
district local boards of trade to make arrangeraents iog
tween masters and men. It had been said in discuss., to
this question that they should refrain from tdinlh rlbthe
topics that were calculated to excite feelings to
,hat
country. He did not think it their duty to do so. "
were the circumstances which affected the comfort? ea
the working, classes, and what remedies could be &visa.
for their distress was an important element in the Hers
sideration of this subject. The Hand-loom v, ea
Commission stated the effect of the corn-laws vou'thst
to raise the price of corn 20 per cent., and assuming or
half of the wages of the operatives went for the eons° the
tion of corn, they operated as a tax on his wages to
ore.
amount of 10 per cent. The consequence was thart
exertion was required from the operative and his 's„.;ore
Were it not for those laws the wife could give,. —the
attention to her domestic duties—one 01_41
things complained of by the Noble Lord to
the operative could devote more of his wage' eat
purchase of clothing, and his children need not be
at so early an age to work. One of the recommends`3o.
made by this Commission was carried out by, here the
jesty's present Government, namely the reduction
toe,
duty on timber. He was an advocate of this mess rev
because it would improve the habitations of the rout-
classes. Other questions which the Commission reel re,
mended, namely, the improvement of our commerrther
lations with America, the Brazils, Germany, er'' t°ertss
countries, so as to admit of the most advantageous 'aues.
for our manufacture in our various markets—thosei,', the
tions, amounting to about six were unattended to 17 tap
Government, with the exception of one measure Ara
A measure so impolitic as that which the Nobi„e_...tber
had recommended, would absolve them from the fur the
necessity which was threatened by the Noble le";ition
Member fur Sunderland of putting the whole regallters
of the details between the operatives and the 10,[1:51..)
under the management of local boards of trade
Lord HOWICI( said his Hon. Friend misunders.
what e had said.
Mr.h BECKETT was surprised at the discussion fare
had taken place upon the amendment of his "'floe
Friend, for that discussion appeared to him to be s 4ion
discussion respecting profit and loss. The que,;teal
they had to consider was, whether the present lola
was one of- cruelty and hardship or not? If it S.,;„tle
turn out not to be so, then the amendment of his,.l tor
Friend would of course fall to the ground. rritheeta
swers to the statements of his Noble Friend 110'1;011f
that the agricultural labourers and others were as ,`' that
off as the manufacturing operatives. Now, conk! iv'
be urged as a reason why that House ought not ,0?
terfere in a case where it possessed the power to d°o%.
—(Hear, hear.) He knew that a large body of thef the
nufacturers, owners of machinery, were in favour s.
amendment of his Noble Friend. The Right 1101.
e):0°"
ronet (Sir James Graham) said that the machinery
tee°
ployed in manufactures generally lasted about sis.oo a
years, and therefore it required a certain rettlr;ieri,
remuneration for the capital invested in that mach' tea
and consequently to reduce the period of labour mach ten
hours a day, would greatly diminish the returns o,oabi
owners of the machinery, and a great injustice v`oy,
be done. Why, he (Mr. Beckett) would appeal to
the most sanguine manufacturer in this country, w' been
any machinery employed in manufactures had ever
cars?
worked for twelve hours a day for sixteen Yrhiug.
Why, no manufacturer ever expected such a,ed by
Machinery was continually being superset' our'
new inventions. This argument of the Right gontind,
able Baronet, therefore, completely fell to the gr° 101
He (Mr. Beckett) had taken the opinions of Those .
practical men on the subject, and the whole of
with whom he had consulted deprecated a twelve nuotta
Bill.—(Hear, hear.) Manufacturers, shop-keepers' in
operatives whom he had conversed with wore . the,'
favour of shortening the hours of labour, and In
town of Barnsley he had ascertained that no oPS that
worked more than ten hours a day. He believ trio
the labouring population in the manufacturing clisogaes
• would ever remain open to the schemes of deinag;: of
and agitation while the present duration of the 10n lye
labour continued. While he was opposed to ati op.
hours'Bill, he would freely-admit that he would-olought
port a proposition for a Bill of ten hours. Hero see
• such a change would be too sudden. He wished he
a gradual alteration, and for the present he Ivo ot to
content with an eleven hours' Bill. He would be Sear
see such a Bill passed for a period of three or fourof tbo
• and by that time they would be enabled to judge boor•
practicability of further curtailing the hours of 14 the
Sir GEORGE GREY felt anxious to st'l 0-110
reasons why he concurred with the Noble Lor
004,
had moved the amendment which had been pilt the.
, In doing so, he could not but acknowledge l'otar/
observations of the Right Hon. Baronet the Sefl were
for the Home Department, in introducing this 13,,'0'
entitled to the greatest weight. He was bound o' the
that the arguments which had been addressed `r, hies
House by the Hon. Member for Kendal seemed i;it
(Sir G. Grey) to hare been directed rather agenst the
gislative interference on the subject than gait ollie,ll
limited, and, as he thought, reasonable prelws Friend'
had been submitted to tbe House by his Noble )-oeerlf
They had been warned, and he admitted, be Went
warned, not to do anything which might have.l nairit4-
of curtailing our manufacturing energies and
ellibed
the commercial prosperity of the country- if far °ell!
toned in vain for any shadow of argument' orfirupos
slightest proof, that the change which was WY Kty,
was likely to involve our commercial presPe Be
" us
had bee° 'B,-4
• would ask whether any argument %web
against the amendment of his Noble Friend, N' the 13ii
not equally applicable to the principle (4, lative
then before the House. The principle of 1e g's igotare'
terference had been long ago decided by the :gas yore
When that question was decided opportunit,i; (g r.
presented to the Hon. Member for Nena'o, the
Warburton) of pressing his objections eithertiot the
second reading of the Bill, or upon the motion.
_over'
Speaker do leave the Chair. No such course' cnovre, that
was taken. He (Sir G. Grey) thought, the
to
in the present state of the proceedings it wass"tiou weir
raise that general question. The only Vie how fgf
how far ought their interference to be carrieu-- o
' could it be safely carried, and how far the isnutoeula
cab!
the operatives required and permitted it
start fr°*-t-o
carried out, and at what point they were to
s_teed
With regard to the subject of interference, it_o7_roaerrl:i
him that between the Noble Earl and theoli "
Mi. Noble
there was not the slightest difference. a o violent 10
did not ask the House to go beyond the Gov!„__ sop _
comprehending other classes in this Beil!:edlllt;
question upon which they were all
tas
uhpottihoeeirstmioinnd:, andeth tro
youngproil o upencreso
13 and 18, and women of every
age,
11Shpu e
period co e
during twelve hours a day, exclusive of. the P
sumed in going to and from the factories,
eels
to the
the period to be consumed during their d:cLide via‘s!
Id
factory. The question the House had to
anns between :111°Igbewo 1004
h uld b° ten
,that
hours ; and the proposition on the other Isou_i. fool:Ise
whether the period should be tell or twelsveo
one side it was proposed that the time
it should be twelve hours, which, in the ea e
labour' ss
no ono could doubt was very excessive tors w
Factory illsPec tble
thought that the Report of the
ott upon
_t
deserving of every attention and consiaerat,
nion
direct oP' young
subject, and they gave it as their
h for any
twelve hours' work was more than enoug
ecessi"
the n . ~rs,
person, and in the case of t
fifteen D°. A
of being absent for more than
d comfort, sn'
was destructive of domestic happiness an f their fir
neglect o
must necessarily tend to the total s.
that this excessive labour was necessAraykon connec.
mercial prosperity of the country ?
tend to ameliorste
milies. He would ask the House were thfeoyr ttobodeecolerarc.,
tion with other measures which would . con-
the physical and moral condition of the people, a beta,-
thet
sidered that such a provision as this would have
ficial result. He thou ht, from all be could
the great mass of the operatives were most anti ,
vg t t°
see the propositions of his Noble Friend owl