The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-15 00:00:00

accuracy by the Noble Marquis, and it was very true
that Mr. Brewster gave direetions that means
should be taken to purchase copies of this
ballad from Moran, who was the printer,
according to the information which had been given by
Osborn. The Noble Marquis must remember that
when Osborn gave his information he was placed
very much in the position of a common in-
former, and, therefore, his evidence was not
entitled to much weight, and ought not to be relied upon if
they could get better evidence by proper means. A man
dressed as an itinerant ballad-singer was therefore sent
to Moran's house, to purchase one of these ballads, and lest
Moran should have none printed in his possession
the man took with him a manuscript copy of the ballad
in his pocket, with directions that in such case he should
order Moran to print some more copies from that manu-
script. It was ascertained that there were no printed
copies in existence, but he produced the MS., and pro-
cured others to be printed in his presence, and pur-
chased eighteen dozen of them. He said, further,
that when Moran received the MS. he asked if
it had been procured from Ulver, and was answered in
the affirmative. Now he had produced the MS. to Mo.
ran, had got it printed in his presence, and had pur-
chased the copies. That was a different case from sending
a person to a printer's house to purchase publications
which had been printed previously. He believed
that that was a course which was every day adopted
in this country without objection, but if no printed
papers were found, and a MS. was taken to the printer,
and he was induced to print it, such a course of
conduct was perfectly unjustifiable. Now, Mr,
Grey at all events, knew of this transaction, for
Falvey said in his evidence that he had told Mr. Grey of
all thathad occurred. Mr. Grey had reported en this tran-
saction to the authorities of tit e Castle,and yet he had never
mentioned one word of this circumstance. The gist of the
whole transaction consisted in his having sent to Moran
to get these ballads printed. The accusation against
the Government was that they had employed a
policeman as a spy—they had furnished him with a
manuscript to get printed, and had prosecuted
the printer. Now he could not acquit Mr. Grey.
Mr. Grey said he could not recollect the circumstance,
that it had escaped his memory ; but the other said that
he had positively given directions that those orders
should be given to Falvey, and Foote said that he
was not sure if Jennings or Mr. Grey mentioned it,
but that the two had been consulting together,
and that Mr. Grey was in the room, when
the orders were given ; therefore, Mr. Grey knew all
the circumstances, and yet had not reported the facts to
the Castle. Jennings afterwards said that Falvey
went to Moran disguised as a ballad-singer,
and desired Moran to print the ballads. Besides
that of the other witnesses, they had the evi-
dence of a person named Cooke, who swore that he came
into the room where Falvey and Moran were, and saw the
manuscript produced ; that he understood Falvey was
acting under orders, and further, that on his return from
Cashel he informed Mr. Grey of all that had passed.
Under all the circumstances of the case, he thought Mr.
Grey's friends were acting unwisely in moving for the pro-
duction of those papers. Of all other situations there
was none which should be more clear from any suspicion
than that of the stipendiary magistrate. He considered
that the evidence which had been adduced in the inquiry
instituted before Mr. Martley, Q.C., fully justified the
course adopted by the Government. Mr. Grey saw the
report which had been made after the investigation, the
accuracy of which he did not deny. Under those cir-
cumstances he did not think that the Government would
be justified in retaining Mr. Grey in the commission of
the peace. With regard to the papers he would say at
once that it was not necessary the Government should
in all cases lay before the House all the confidential
papers that might pass on any subject ; but if the Noble
Marquis persevered in his motion, he would not object to
all the papers being given.
The Marquis cf CLANRICARDE said that he had
heard the speech of the Noble Lord with great regret.
wereG re a m
Grey,
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fault,
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.
it was nothing less than crime, of Mr. Grey he had no
doubt was from want of judgment, or excessive zeal, and
as such it was fit that he should be removed, but he did
not think that the Noble Earl had shown that the Go-
vernment were not at fault. He did not think that the
Government had taken the proper steps to know what
was going on. He had not explained how it happened
that from the Ist of December till April no notice
had been taken of the conduct of Mr. Grey, or of
Jennings. If practices such as were disclosed in
this case were allowed, and there were unfor-
tunately many similar cases, the confidence of the people
in the law and in its administration would be very much
shaken. The Government ought to be particularly
careful in watching over the police force of Ireland.
That force was totally different from any force in this
country. It was a most excellent and useful force in
Ireland, provided it were well governed ; but if the force
should get into abuse, and should not be properly go-
verned, it would reduce Ireland to a state of slavery.
Earl FORTESCUE thought it would be well if their
Lordships were to suspend their judgment upon this
matter until the papers were before the House. He had
seen Mr. Grey for the first time that morning, and he
distinctly stated that he gave no direction whatever that
copies of the ballad which had been referred to should
be printed. In what he had done, he had acted upon the
instructions of the Law Officers of the Crown. It was
in consequence of the suggestion of the Attorney-Gene-
ral that he became a party to the course which had been
pursued. The course he suggested was to obtain the
evidence of Osborn against Moran, and, upon that evi-
dence to send a search warrant to Moran's house, as he
had no doubt that copies of the ballad would there be
found.

The Earl of WICKLOW said it was quite clear that
if Mr. Grey had directed a person to get copies of the
ballad printed, in the manner stated, that he was guilty
of an offence for which he deserved to be dismissed. If
a Conservative magistrate had committed such an of-
fence, and the Government had not dismissed him, he
could imagine the clamour that Noble Lords opposite
would have raised. Yet now, after a culpable act had
been committed—(Cheers from the Opposition benches)
—an outcry was raised because the person committing it
was discharged from his office.

After a few words from Lord WHARNCLIFFE and
the Marquis of CLANRICARDE in explanation,
The Marquis of NORMANBY rose to reply. The
police had been employed as spies. The Government
had refused to prosecute, and they had dismissed Mr.
Grey without giving him an opportunity of explaining
his conduct. Now nothing of all this would have oc-
curred if it had not been for the loose opinion given by
the Attorney-General for Ireland as to the conduct of
sessions juries in Tipperary. He was by no means sa-
tisfied with the defence which had been made for the
Irish Government ; and if ever the realisation of that
fond and foolish prophecy, as the Noble Lord had called
it, of; the Tories' downfal was to take place, the con-
duct of such officials as Mr. Brewster and Mr. Lucas
was more likely to occasion it than a thousand ballads.
The Earl of WICKLOW explained.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said it was certain that
had
een
from the
employedo t Government
gt
e
theba factads
printed,
thatir.
Greythe
andhadwhether police
he had ordered him to do so or
b
not he deserved his dismissal for concealing the fact.
The Government had acted as soon as they became ac-
quainted with the facts of the case, which was not until
Mr. Scott had read the depositions. Mr. Grey had kept
circumstances from the knowledge of the Government with
which he was acquainted, and that was sufficient to
justify the Government in dismissing him. He should,
however, reserve his judgment until the papers were
before their Lordships.—(lronical cheers from the Oppo-
sition.) Noble Lords opposite had brought forward
this motion in order to do everything in their power to
make her Majesty's Government as odious as they could
in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) They were no true friends to
Ireland who acted in this way. Those who had to ad-
minister the law in Ireland had a very difficult task to
perform, and ought to be properly supported.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said it was at
all events not necessary for his Noble Friend to appeal
to the people of Ireland to ask whom they con-
sidered their best friend. He would not deny
that what he had said was meant as an attack upon the
Government. Nothing had been said to satisfy him why
this magistrate had not been dismissed four months be-
fore. They would, however, when they had the papers,
see the date of the appointment of his successor, and
they would then, in all probability, find that nothing had
been done in this affair until after public attention had
been drawn to the subject.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE was understood to say that
the date of the new appointment was the 18th of April.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE—Not until after
public attention had been called to that subject by the
speech at the assizes.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH rose to order. It was
impossible that the order and regularity of their proceed-
ings could be observed if Noble Lords made more than
one speech on the same subject.
The Marquis of NORMANBY would not be prevented
by the lecture of the Noble Duke from replying to the
attack of the Noble Earl, who ought to have spoken in
the course of the debate, instead of waiting until after
his reply. He should undoubtedly exercise the right of
bringing the conduct of the Irish Government under
their Lordships' notice whenever he thought it neces-
sary- ; and he would do so even were the Noble Earl
himself a member of that Government, and were he in
that capacity to renew his visit to Ireland, where a vivid
recollection of him was retainedlby sounds not so articu-
lated, but possessing quite as much meaning as anything
the Noble Earl uttered in their Lordships' House—he
meant the Kentish fire.—(Hear, and laughter.)
The Earl of WINCHILSEA explained.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said the assizes were held on
the 20th of March, and the new appointment was made
on the Bth of April.
The motion was then agreed to.
HER MAJESTY'S SHIP QUEEN.

The Earl of MINTO, in moving for a return of the
services of her Majesty's ship Queen, stated that the
Queen, a three-decker, built on. a new principle, had
been sent out to Malta, where she was the Hag-ship. His
complaint was that she had not had a fair and proper
trial. A voyage to Malta under easy sail, and a few
holiday trips from that island, were not sufficient to test
her powers. He had no wish to cast any imputation on
the conduct of the Gallant Admiral commanding at
Malta, as he considered that the Mediterranean station
was so near home, that whatever was done there had
been done by orders from the Admiralty.
The Earl of HADDINGTON agreed that it was de-
sirable that every opportunity should be taken of testing
the powers of trial ships, and although the powers of
the ships in question had not been tested to the extent
that he wished, yet they had been tested to a much
greater extent than the Noble Earl seemed to imagine.
On the voyage out she had been tried against the For-
midable ; since she had been at Malta, she had been
tried against the Vernon, but they had been separated
during a tempest. The Admiral reported very favour-
ably of her. It was not always in the Admiral's power