The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-27 00:00:00

LONDON, SATURDAY

Major BLACKALL could not agree to the amend-
ment.

After a few words from Colonal DUNNE,
Mr. O'FLAHERTY said the Bill had been received
with great favour in the west of Ireland. He thouht
it would be advisable for Hon. Members who did not
represent those unions which were most distressed, not
to exact as much as in the cases of really distressed
unions.

Mr. SCULLY thought the time ought to be extended
in proportion to the necessities of the union.
Mr. ROCHE hoped the Government would reconsider
the proposition of the Hon. Member for Leitrim. It
was originally understood that the time fixed for re-
payment was to be forty years. and the moral effect of
the measure would be greatly diminished when it was
seen that the matter was left iu the discretion of the
Treasury. He had the greatest confidence in tho in-
tentions of the present Government, but it would be
scarcely prudent to reckon on their holding office for
that period.
The Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... 31
Against it... ... 85
Majority ... —54
Clause 3 was then agreed to, as were clauses 4,5,
and 6.
On clause 7,

Mr. MONSELL wished to know how soon the work-
houses would be commenced as the want of them would
very much impair the good effect arising from dividing
the unions?

Mr. STAFFORD, in reference to the division of
nniong, begged to remind the Government of the repeated
and strong remonstrances which had come from Limerick
against the alteration of the territorial distribution; and
hoped they would leave that union with its ancient

Mr. HERBERT expressed a similar hope with refer-
ence to the union of Kerry.
Mr. FRENCH thought the alteration of territorial
divisions most advantageous to 'lreland; but he wished
to point out ono hardship which had been inflicted on
some townisuds, which had been transferred from one
electoral division to another. The result of which was,
that they hsl.to pay the assessments of both. He knew
an instance in which a townland had beau subjected to a
rate of 3s. struck just before the change, and it was also
liable to a rate of 4s. struck just after its incorporation
with the new electoral division.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
that nothing was more essential than to erect work-
houses in those unions. All he could' ay was that last
year the Government provichd as much money as they
were told by the Poor-law Commissioners would be re-
quitel till the 31st March. He Was not able to give
more &A.:fled information, but would make inquiries
into the matter. With reference to the circumstance
mentioned by the 'lon. Member who had just spoken, it
might be a hardship, but it did not follow that it was an
injustice; for the rate made by the district from which
the townland in question was sera-ated was no doubt
made to defray past expenditure, of which the tosinla.nd
bad had the benefit. •

The clause was then agreed to.
The Bill passed through Committee, and was ordorel
to be reported.
ROAD, EATON-SQUARE.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he was enabled,. by the
kindness of the Hon. Membh for Glasgow, who had
waived his right to precedence, to put the question to
the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General of which he
had given him notice, with regard to the differences that
had arisen between the trustees of the Grosvenor-place
district and the Marquis of Westminster, as to the repair
(f the highway kneeu by the name of the King's-road.
It wag well known by many that the stseie of that road
had become an intolerable nuisance to those who resided
in that part of Lontlon.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
come forward as one of the trust( e e He put the ques-
tion as a ratepayer, and he believed he spoke the senti-
ments of all bis fellow-ratepayers when he said that he
considered himself directly aggrieved in his property
by the Marquis of Westminster. Ho was glad to see
the Noble Earl the Member for Chester in his place. He
was supported in his view by high legal authorities. The
origin of this question
Mr. ANS I'EY rose to order. In acquiescing, to-
gether with tee Hoe. Member for G'aagow, in giving
precedence to the Hon. Baronet, ho understood his in-
tention to be to confine himself strictly to the question
which he was desirous to put. The Hon. Baronet was
now, however, going into a long statement, which would
give the Noble Earl to whom he had alluded, and others,
the right to reply, and the result would be a debate
which would probably shut out the lion. Member
for Glasgow, and would most certainly exclude him (Mr.
Anstey).—(A laugh.)
The SPEAKER said the Hon. Member would not be
excluded. •
Mr. ANS TEY—There will be no time.—(Laughter.)
The SPEAKER—The Hon. Baronet has a right to
speak on the question that I leave the chair.
Sir J. PAKINGTON continued—The origin of this
dispute was an agreement entered into in 1820 between
the Marquis of Westminster and the Crown, by which
an exchange was made of the then existing King's-road
for that large thoroughfare, now known by the same
name, which passed through Eaton-square. All knew
the great advantages which the Marquis of Westminster
had derivei from that change, for the north side of
Eaton-square, one of the handsomest rows of private
mautions in this or any other metropolis, was built upon
the site of the old King's-road.— (Hear.) The condition
of the exchange was an undertaking by the Marquis of
Westminster for himself and his heirs to complete this
line of road, and maintain it for ever thereafter fir • the
use of the King and his heirs and successors, and for the
use of the said Marquis his heirs and successors and all
other his Majesty's subjects, reserving to his Majesty
the right to place a bar to preserve the privacy of the
road, but to keep the road in repair fur ever, for the
use of all his Majesty's subjects. Subsequently, at the
instance of the Marquis of Westminster, an Act of
Parliament was passed transferring the manage-
ment of the roads of the district to certain
trustees. He now came to a part of the transaction
to which he knew considerable importance was attached
by some. In 1830 the Crown abandoned this as a
private road, and the trustees of the Grosvenor place
district, in perfect ignorance of any covenant between
the Marquis and- the, Grown, comeaeneeti tapering the
road, and continued to do se for about three years. At
the end of that time the existence of the covenant was
discovered, and a negotiation took place with Lord
Westminster, the result of which was that the Marquis,
after having investigated the circumstentiea thb ease,
made an arrangement with the trustees, by which he
undertook to pay OA a year fir the repair of the road,
which ho continued to pay till his death in 1844. After
his death the trustees continued to repair the road, pre-
suming, of course, that they were to receive the 1.60 L
annually. After the lapse of sale time the present
Marquis refused to continue the tittyment, and in con-
sequence of his refusal the tettstees thought it necessary
to take a legal opinion, and the case was submitted to
eminent treethsel, Mr. Watson and Mr. Hayes, and
their epinion was that the Marquis of West-
minster was liable to rhpair the road by virtue of
his covenant, and that his" liability:was hot affected
by local Acts) • nor by what took place in
1830. After this opinion the trustees would not have
been justified in expending the money of the ratepayers
without an attempt to enforce the obligatioit efeatbd by
the deed of 1820, and thee theitehe thist the leave of the
Crown would be grantitd Io bring an action. After this
opinion the teeetete proceeded to lay the same case bee
fore two ether most eminent counsel, both Of *hod! he
rejoiced to see' in the House. The counsel welt the
Ron. Attorney and- Solicitor-Oeneql, and he Begged to
recall the anention of the littet ant! Loarnel Attorney.
General to his wen debt b.
The ATTOAN2Y-GENERAL; —I am aware of it.
' Sir 4, PAKINGTON—The Hon. and Lett-nett Afton
any-General wad, prima /ode, the patish Oat botind to
repair the road, but the Marquis wasL,alSo ijable to the
Crown upon his covenant tb Wiktkt tt6 `664.tiant
could only be enforced by Tht COMIIIiS9I9II Of Woods and
Forests, and thct the trustees ought to apply to the
Commissioners of Woods and Forests; but their an-
swer was that they had nothing to d Pith the matter;
that the bargain was between the At aripia of West.-
minster and the Cro*h, and that permission to tete
must be granted by the AttoretereGeneetels tad not by
them. The trustees agait Go tne Attorney-Ge-
neral;l but in 'answer the tot Hon. and Learned Gen-
temae steted thee tie had considered the pirctphsitakes
stated
ill the memorial; thet he has! detlinea to allow
titaitai evidentlyw g
leantldiedvil
jest referred
benefit from the alto, otthe read, 'end meet Pr the benefit of
the public tit large. Ats lielesed the attention of the
nto eitetlinetsiti
inahlost eti;:detnetioe ttteohrheee:i: used;
t;
ha: do tritoeivt
eezilZgif
thethat
puthblei
ca t l covenantlarge,
wasbs caniovt, in-
tended
1 tea.rned Gentlemante to the opinion of the Rig"( How. and
as minster
ritgil..sttet.L:Aaotia:he M r3luis Of `V
a,•
was bound to repair thn toad for the ese of her yaje§te.
opinion of e .* ^,-,ese at Mil
October) When tut Zhu(
opinion that the meeee,e jolts he had given it as his
arned Gentleman in
'eel of West
wee honnti
repair. In consequence of this crieq,4!'ttekitistees held
a meeting and passed rerairettolis to the effect diet the
reasons given by the Attorney-d'eneral were hot
dell
founded, sod oihre not consistent pith the joint opinion
given by himself and th'4 f3thicitor-General. They
determined to retie* no application to the Attorney-
General for p 4 mission to sue, and applied tt him ad-
cordiney. The Right Hon. Prkd ttatned Ghatleman,
in answer, stated that they Were Mistaken in stiptioSing
that there was any ineonsisterrey ,bet,l7c 'dimaion
himself and the SolititOrea-ettetat, teat the Mtrquis of
Westminster was Ilitbie to repair, and his own refusal to
enforce the *ovenant. The Right Hon. and taiined
Gentleman stated that between tete ziu3tion whether
there was a legal liability MA the prop sty df eefOrCing
it there was -a snaked distlitetfor. Hq theiliht there
was that its this assertion *been elearly called fur a
public explanation free lite night Hon., and Learnedqbluesliaolidn as taor
Geonntleman. 1:n his opinion, it Vvas. ticSt foe the Ricilit
Learned
tietseitn.trleiemtyithof titfTinijilth emosveelnf atnbee The ratephytts felt Pthat
the Marquis of Wrs3ltuit33ter
had derived groat
change. They had ipecuniary advantages,. rcort tiiß
Learned Gentleman thehi authority of the Hight iad
was liable in Is° that the Marquis of West-
minsterto repair the road; and
surely they were entitled to some voice as to the pro•
priety of enforcing that liability.n
for his opinion, the Rig ht ln stating his reasons
onourable lkud Learned
Gentleman said that the
trustees of the
Grosvenor dis-
trict had obtained an Act of Parliament on the subject. The Act in question had net been obtained by th teee, but by the M
estsr himself f
arquis.of Weatmie "'us"
el
benefit of his own estate. The opinion
of the sigh;
Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was, therefore, erroneous in matter of fact. The Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, in the conclusion of his answer, again re-
fated permission to the ratepayers to decide the motile
of the case in a court of law. In consequence of these
repeated refusals of the Right .Hon. and Laftrnadi

tleman the trustees took the opinion of a gentleman
eminent in his profession, Mr. Rolt, Queen's counsel.
•Mr. Rolt, in his opinion, stated that there was no appeal
to any legal tribunal from the decision of the Attorney-
General refusing the use of his name to sue the Marquis
of Westminster. Mr. Rolt proceeded to say, that though
the legal remedy was doubtful, the advisers of the Crown
would do an act of injustice to the ratepayers either by
attempting to release *e covenant or by refusing to sue
on it. He had no hesitation in subscribing to that
opinion. In.conolueion, Mr. Bolt advised the trustees
to lay the whole matter again before the Attorney-
General, and staled, that if the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman still declined to permit the suit, the only
coarse for the trustees to take would be to appeal to the
Government or the Legislature for assistance. A
deputation proposed to wait on the Noble Lord, the
Prime Minister, on the subject; but he declined to re-
ceive them, as he considere I a point of law to be at
issue. As a rate-payer, he now acted on the second
suggestion of Mr. Rolt, and made his appeal to the Le-
gislature. He would more especially make his appe it
to the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman, in the
earnest hope that he would re-consider his decision, and
not persevere in refusing those parties to go into n court
of law. He had been informed that the Marquis of
Westminster himself was most anxious that this matter
should be deaidol by a court of law. He did not wish
to detain the House, but there were one or two passages.
—(Cries of " Question," and " Order")—
Mr. ANSTEY rose to order—He wished to know
whether the argument raised by the Hon. Member—
which bad lasted now for half an hour—came within
the definition of a statement preliminary to putting a
question?
The SPEAKER said that, on the question. that the
Speaker leave the chair, it was competent for any Mem-
ber to bring forward a question of grievance. The clues.
tion before the Houle was, that he should new leave the
chair. The Hon. Baronet was speaking to that question,
and it would be improper in him to interfere.
Mr. ANSTEY wished to know whether, twine given
notice of an aTendment on the question that the Speaker
leave the chair previous to Committee of Supply, he was
not entitled to bring on his amendment, inasmuch as the
lion. Member for GleTow, whose notice of amendnaent
stood before his, had given way.
TheSPEAKER said if the Hon. Baronet had given
nctide that he would conclude with a motion, the Hor.
Member would have been entitled to precedence, bat he
had merely intimated his intention to put a question.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said he hoped it would be some
consolation to the Hon. Member for Youghal to know
that he was nearly done. He it as about to say, that in
consequence of the opinion of Mr. Rolt a conference was
held with the Bight Hon. and Learned Gentleman the
Attorney-General on the subject, at which the Bight
Hon. and Learned Gentleman admitted that on his tilt
rested the whole respon'ibility, and that he had to look
to all the circumstances of the case.—(Cries of "Ques-
tion.") He complained that the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had not looked to all the circumstances of
the case.—(Renewed cries of "Question.") Ho was
sorry to detain the House at such length.—(hear.) He
did not, how. ever, think that the House had any right to
complain of his bringing forward a question involving
the rights of a very large portion of the inhabitants of
the metropolis. In the abstract of the proceedines which
he held in his hand there was an expression used in
reference to the conduct of the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, which he would not repeat—which he re-
gretted bad been used, and to which ha would not
subscribe. He should appeal to the Noble Lord at
the head of the Government, as a constitutional
statesman, and ask him, whcber it was right that
any authority in this iceuntry should interfere to
debar any portion of her Majesty's eubjects from ap-
pealing to a court of law to decide the merits of any
question of grievance they might have.— (Hcas, hear.)
All that the ratepayers in this case asked was permission
to goo a court of law'. The Attorney-General, avail
ing himself of a technicality, said they should not be
allowed to do so. Ho was at a loss to know whet
answer the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman could
give.—(Cries of " Question,") lie was not disposed to
detain the House longer than he could help, but if the

Hon. Member for Youghal resorted to thoseuncourteous
interruptions he should certainly go on to a much
greater length.—(Loud cries of "Oh.") The indict-
ment preferred against the trustees was of an extraor-
dinary nature, and would not. it was believed, raise the
question at issue.—(Cries of" Question " renewed.) He
etiould conclude by asking the Right Bon. and Learned
Gentleman to give some explanation of the grounds
upon which he felt himself justified in debarring the
ratepayers from trying the merits of the question in a
court of law, and to state whether he intended to parse-.
vere in refusing them permission to sue.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL felt it would be some-
what inconvenient for him to enter into any genera'.
statement of the grounds of his decision, particularly as
an indictment was now pending against the trustees f..)r
non-repair of the road. He should, however, partly
answer the qeestion of the Right Hon. Baronet. He did
not complalu that the Hon. Baronet had not put on the
paper of to-day the question he intended to put. The
Hon. Baronet had told him of his intention to put the
question; but not having put it on the votes, probably
some Member, who might have wished to make a state-
ment on the subject, had been prevented doing so. Of
that, however, ha made no complaint.
Sir. J. PAKINGTON did not think the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman wished to misrepresent what
he had done. He had put a question on the paper Le-
fore the holidays, and he had now put the same question
of which he had given notice. Last night he gave
public, notice that be intended to put the question to-day
on the order for CommittPe of supply, and he had also
last night informed the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, of his intention.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he made no

complaint of the course taken by the Hon. Baronet in
regard to his notice. He perceived that on the Mon-
day after the holidays the Hon. Baronet gave notice
that he would ask him whether he intended to persevere
in his refusal to allow the . suit in, question; and last
night the Hon. Baronet told him that he would put the
question on the order for going into Committee of Sup-
ply. Of that course he did not complain, but he stated
that, be thought some Hon. Members, from the notice

not being on the votes of the day, might be in ignorance
that the qaestion wis to be brought forward. He was
glad to find that the Hon. Baronet did not subscribe to
the expression which had been made use of in the pro-
ceedings with reference to himself. Any one who knew
the nature of his connexion with the city of Chester
knew that he was not assailable on that point, and those
who had made use of the expression, and those who be-
lieved it, were utterly beneath his contempt. lie
quite agreed with the Hon. Barnet th•it the rate-
payers had a great grievance to complain of. He
himself was a ratepayer, and lived but a few doors:from
the Honk Baronet. The grievance of which they
had to complain were four-fold—(Laughter.) The road

was not watered—it was not lighted; and, therefore,
was made the receptacle of every improper thing-4A
laugh)—it was not cleansed, and was not kept in repair.
The eonitnissiohers Were bound to water, light, and
cleanse the road; and he could not understand why these
three things should not be done merely because it was
not kept in repair by the Marquis of Wesminster. The
Marquis of Weetininster said that the road having been
thrown open to the public It should be repaired in the
same manner in which all other similar highways were
repaired. With respect to the duty of tee Attorney -
General, he would s9y that noconsiderations would ke-p
him from performing the official task which would be
imposed, on him' but having consulted the highest legal
aiithoritice, after having Lea in communication with the
Marquis of Westminster, it appeared the most sound
opinions were, that no legal proceedings 3110.441 be
taken.
Mr. GRANVILLE 8- gIiKELEY asked the Hon.
an Lettrteed (4eotletari Whet the arts were to do?
'the ATTORNEe. GittfEliAL staid, that, having
been unfortunate in giving a professional opinion, he
would not hazard an enprofessional one:
LorditASTIIREAGI4 hoped that his Hone Friend
below him would take the sense of the Hotisi,' bet the
quAitioti •.
to the Crowil:
on some future occasion by melting an Address
Mr. MARTIN depreSsed his centerrenee with the
view taken of he subject by thb AeterneYstlefierci.l
le.drd It. OItOSVENOIe referred to several legal opie
St4isb subjects enjoyed,
nions to show that the Marquis of Westminster wag not
Lerd HAMILTON thotight as there was such a di-
st
that
ap
t tthat posed
at liableaa to e
at let repair*cshtytheothf thehighest
grahteresdptaaldye
egrraeslfe
oraruuegtdhh
authorities,
ortiot
eb
tkrsity ot opinion among
e
alleWed the,Polvilege.*bkol
.et.
o an api;eal to a court or
The discussion then dropped, , . •
STA,UPS sll.laLog
MACGIIECCiR than moves, pursuanL to notice'
that in consideration of the recent changes in the navi-
gation-laws, and consistently with the teto of the re-
venue, it wee
,eXpe!lie.tie the tittluejid asenr-
ttedeet sit)A b!.l6rttq dthdi
documents Should aboliihed.
Lord 3, MANNER,S.ieconded the. thotinn,
CIIANCF,T,TIOIt 6f the F.3;`CHE4ITEIi slid he
stotim give the same answer in the negative to that pro-
position. Which he had given to a similar one a short
time shicei
After
i the re had been already
notiB3 of, tie could riot eindortaTie to tiriatzie Airy tiee
ther reduction in duties than whit be had already spe=
&died: With respect to the policy of repealing the tax
s occasion,
hie had only to stibeer+e; that he thought it hie duty to
aeta
Criefar:icsinn, becauseelPre"lng ahy opinion on the subject Upon
that he felt that. ho ought to reserve
fok.hleaself an uefettered discretion as to the financial
poiicv which he should hereafter pursue.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the Right Hon. Gen-
tlettian the emir:teener of the Exchequer had not alleged
dud single argeleetint in favour of the continuance of that
most objectionable tax: It was a tax which was ob-
jectionable at all times, but which was peculiarly so at
thb present time; when the shipping interest were de-
prived of the protection they had formerly enjoyed
Linder the navigation lame The continuance of the tax
was it preeerit not only objectionable but most unjust;
and he hoe the, itoo, Gentleman opposite would press
his motion to a division.
Mr: Aldermen THONIPSON said that no such duties
as thite iVere leiied in the United State', at llarnburgh,
portien,,,of the principal 4 ports of the
t
eewledee, that
Continent; and ;h0 reslq was, to
the shipowners of this country effected marine insurances
hardly deserving of any
present
larnaceti
vern
denaerns.npvtu,plerie3hra,yit;
Teeni
amceshrdee
IsEr
doi consideration; but the stamps
there to a very large extent. The stamps on charter
atuti
ohssnet a
Chancellori
the. vo emr
business
cu rshi
occasions,
osvaso:foi
oftt
nhauxse:,
I3t aoeie:dhh.
underwriters.
:uiorletis
_r-.
parties were of very trifling amount, and were therefore
wobnsmuuaetsttrahldrydaetitafhlogaltuattshi
hse(slturb.jeleitualofe,ta)xaotpleinhiefonr, the
e
Right lion. Gentleman would have done- mot,
- netter if
he had considered the plei{;es which he h•el given, cud
which he had cot redeemed, at thtr period of the passing
cf f h •
tete- P eavigetioa-laws. :Previously to the

!:VENING, APRIL 27,

Ministers whether they would be prepared to relieve the
shipping interest from all those burdens which could
prevent them from competing on equal terms with
foreigners; and to that question he had received an
answer in the affirmative. In his opinion the continu-
ance of those duties would be an act of injustice to which
the [louse ought not to give its sanction.
Lord J. RUSSELL denied that her Majesty's
Ministers had given any pledgo, at the time of the
passing of the measure for the repeal of the naviga-
tion-laws, that they would abolish those duties. Neither
his Right Honourable Friend the Chancellor, nor his
Right Honourable Friend the President of the Board of
Trade had given any sueli assurance. The 'Hon. Gentle-
man the Member for Montrose was, therefore, mistaken
upon that point;-and he should further observe that he
should have thought the Hon. Gentleman would have
wished to see the navigation-laws repealed without any
condition. The qtrstion then at issue was not whether
the tax in question was in itself desirable. He did not
mean to contend that it was so; but he thought that
they ought to continue it as a portion of that financial
arrangement by which the credit of the country was ,to
be maintained.

Mr. DUNCAN said that he had vote l for a repeal of
the navigation-laws on condition that after that repeal
all unnecessary restrictions on the shipping interest, such
as the duties then under their consideration, should be
removed.

Mr. HENLEY said he only regretted that Hon.
Gentlemen opposite had not hnld their votes on the
navigation-laws until they shoUld have found that all the
restrictions on the shipping interest of which they dis•
approved had been repealed.—(Hear, hear.) In his
opinion they ought not t) have thrown their constituents
overboard as they had done. He agreed with the
Noble Lord below him (Lord' Manners) that the
Government had made out no case f.,r a continuance of
that tax.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For Mr. Ma?.Gregor's motion ... 89
Against it ... ... 156
Majority against the motion ... —67
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

On the question being again put that the Speaker
should leave the chair,
Mr. DISRAELI rose and said that before the House
consented to vote any more money, it ought to be in pos-
session of the financial statement of the Government fir
the year. At present the House was without that in-
formation. It was true that nearly two months ago
Ministers favoured the House with a general view of the
finances of the country, and of what they intended to
do as regarded the remission of taxation. It had al-
ways be held to be a matter of great importance that
the financial statement of the year should be made as
early in the session as possible, in order that, before
voting the supplies, Members . might be able to form
an opinion as to whether their constituents could bear
the burden of the taxes necessary for raising the sup-
plies. It was theref,re essential that the Thus° should
be made aevainted nith the exact financial position of
the Government—should know what taxes would pro-
bably be repealed, before they could firm au opinion as
to the possibility of meeting the exigency of the occasion.
A Government always looked upon it as a ulster of
great self-gratulation and just pride to be able to make
a financial statement at an early period of the session.
To do the Government justice, it must be admitted that
they had taken an early opportunity of making their
Cira,acial statement to the House this session; but, unfor-
tunately, the budget. which was opened nearly two
months ago, was not yet finished.—(Hear, and laughter )
It was not impossible that the House might find itself in
the same position as in that remarkable year 1848, when
the Government began their financial statement on the
17th of February, and did not bring it to a close until
the 25th of August.—(Cheers and laughter.) There
were indications that the Government was about to pur-
sue a similar career this session. In 1848 Ministers got
entangled in the course of their financial statement with
the sugar duties. They proceeded with a new Sugar
Bill, which was not successful. They produced a simi-
lar one, which met a similar unhappy fate. A third was
produced. All theta) Bills were accompanied with a
schedule, such as those criticised so successfully by the
House, hat Ministers had found themselves hitherto
in the same position as in 1848. Nearly two months
had elapsed, and though the Government cam-
. menced the session with the exposition of
their views with respect to the finance of the country
—views, of course, matured, well-digested, and the
contequence.of many counsels—it was now the 26th of
April, and no Member had a clear idea of what were
the ohjects and what would be the effect of the policy
of the Government es to finance.—(Hear, hear.) It was
a matter of great importance, espcially after the late
division, that the Government should fairly tell the
Home whether they intend to proceed, be did not say
with their- measurse respecting stamps, for that was
given up entirely, but whether they intended to introduce
a new measure. All that had happened hitherto wee
the refusal of an excise duty. No one could pretend that
that that was the budget of the Government. All that
recommended it was, that it repealed an excise duty and
not a customs duty—rectguizing a salutary principle.
There was a. certain indulgence which was always to be
exhibited towards the finance of a Whig Ministry.—(A.
laugh.) The Government could not be exptcead to excel
' in every branch. The foreign policy of the Government,
by its peremptory decrees, maintained the dignity of
the country, and by numerous blockades vindi-
cated the supremacy of the seas.— (Hear, hear.) The
Colonial-office by its ingenuity in manufacturing consti-
tutions, upheld the well-earned reputation of this coun-
try for being foremost in promoting liberal institutions.
And the Government had always in their pigeon-holes
some scheme or other which would inevitably render
Ireland rich and England content. These were circum-
stances which compensated for an occasional deficit, a'id
sometimes for a proposition to double the income-tax.
The finance of the Government was a subject which
ought always to be treated with indulgence. But there
was a limit even to Parliamentary patience; and, as two
months had elapsed since the exposition of the Govern-
ment, and as there was no prospect of their ideas being
fulfilled, it would be indiscreet in the House to vote the
public money without giving them an opportunity of
telling clearly what were their intentions.—(Hear.) On
his side of the House they were particularly interested.
He assumed (it was not a monstrous assumption) that no
more would be heard of the Stamp Act, because the case
of that Act was a much more aggravated case of Minis-
terial incompetence than that of the sugar duties;
and if three failures in the Sugar Bills brought an end
of the budget on the 25,h of August, it followed that
four failures in the Stamp Act already amounted almost
to a certainty that the original scheme of the Government,
or any one similar to it, could no longer be contemplated
as a political probability.—(Hear, hear.) What was
the principle of the budget? More embarrassed with a
surplus than ever they had been with a deficiency—
(Hear, hear)—her Majesty's Ministers resolved to re-
cognise the claims of a great interest which was suffering
and which, from a peculiar combination of circumstances,
was universally recognised as the only interest suffering.
—(Hcer, hear.) Relief, to the agricultural interest was
a voluntary offer on the part of her Majesty's Ministers.
A certain sum was allotted—a particular amount appro-
priated to be given immediately and distinctly to the re-
lief of that interest. They came forward to remind him
of his promise with no ill grace, because in the interval
they had made more than one attempt to relieve
interests which to . their astonishment they found
were also suffering—(Hear, hear)—without reference
to'their own prior claims. and perfectly ready to relin-
quish those claims in favour of their suffering fellow;
subjects—(Hear, bear.) Those attempts had not
succeeded; one, within the last five minutes, had
failed, and now, when Ministers asked them to form
thmselves into Committee of Supply and vote public
money, he wanted some distinct explanation of the inten-
tions of Government and of the means in order to secure
that relief for the suffering interest of agriculture which
had been so long and so voluntarily promised.—(Hear.)
Had the circumstances which prompted Ministers to
come forward at the end of February and announce that
a considerable portion of their surplus was ready, as it
ought to be, for the relief of that interest, ceased to ope-
rate? Had the circumstances which had occurred since
in regard to that interest rendered their exigencies less
-se were they of a nature which could justify Mk
severe, •-- their opinion on the distress of the
nisters in changibb '"ear, hear.) 'There was an
agriettitifffti fttteeest?—v.... --e bench—it had often
opinion prtivellent 611 It 9 l'rettestne • would meet with
beed idtinittted-zthat ariet hedter ti e 7 . teing cloud
more ineeffiti cdtintenmkerli al,td.thriti the, p*..-
which lowerel over it:l6 hfpatif efittlids of Prirgiovi
have vanished. Was it so? T.11614' Ifni% plenty of wit-•
nesses in that House who could give teafiridurty: Iltey
er ttild ea high authority—that of members of We 010,
venni:tent in atiottivr place—that the unprecedented ded
preisiod of agriviiiide No's° from exceptional causes—
(flitierefieto--:hat jet vthat fespeet was it to be under-
stood that so 4 r4Nert efete exceptional ? Ho thought it'
was to obtain low prices Mitt thl changed their iegis7
lation.—(Hear, hear.) He could tot elgtee that the
iiitsqtetetaaces were exceptional. It was not let the
credit df the p!' stint or of the late Government to beliete
that Melte ditctintisterldes were exceptional. If wheat
veeistf sating at 81st a quarter, he could not understand
the legid v4lieft vYo'uld bake a free-trader say the circum-
stances were exceptionaTt bass when wheat was selling,
at 355. the quarter, instead of denouncing the eircum-
mattes as exceptional, those who had supported free
triad °fight to„,say the effect was most legitimate.—
(Hear, hear:) By &them acts, of which the House were
avVare-by logidal dedgettot from the new philosophy—
must regard this effect as one of a permanent cha-
racter; dug; if it were so; it was of still more import-
ance that Minisiefd :.!Yotild state what they intended to
do for the relief of the rigliesfiturel interest. Assum-
ing their legislation on atataps t be deficient, he
should ask, if relief to that interesi wereneeT
sary two months ago, whether it was not aura ,7 still
more urgent now ? and on an occasion like the preseni,
when they were asked as a matter of course to go into
Committee of Supply, and vote away taxes wrung from
a suffering community, the most unhappy of whom those
on his 'side of the House represented---distress acknow-
ledged by lion. Gentlemen opposite, who were aletays
boasting of their own prosperity—(Hear, bear)—he
thought it his duty to say that the time had gone by
wheel se a matter of course; the Government conk; have
a Committee of etirietti--(year, hear.) While then'
financial, statement was isiligefA'Fbll If2tiki net "Y die'
.gr0,?1,4117 ititeifinf; beC4nse harsh' phi4d vNtllti not
a- the e'6rfettlinr,i4s:nand when a part 0:
tmheeuss-ch'e-;,‘;s, relief from taf.eo4 fo,r,sUfrerinc,&,portions
1,,,,,;ted the Geoltditittient; before
of the community; ha
they asked the House to Vote svfq money, 1.4. atlalie.
nctly whether they ietentet_
forward and declare
another attempt to completedh the budget c ording to
tat:do fir the
their original scheme, and what they
meanh
cheers.)
relief of the agricultural classes.—(LoudLerd J. ri,vssw,r, thought it was Pheardly worth
whtle-e(totta cries of Hear, hear")—to have. delayed
the llons fr9ea proceeding to th? pra.cattocraml
abtiao snen weshsa
the evening either for the 'sake oet
the lion, Geneleman conveyedt. 9to 'the
.1411 euuisreie—s(iAle
laugh)—or for the sake of making those
:a__etAlloakritteel the Hop. ',Gentierpsu 111"

1850.

formed the House that when they went into Committee
of Supply they went, in all probability, fol. the purpose
of voting public money, and, as the First Lord of the
Admiralty had given notice of his intention' to proceed
with the navy estimates, that information was hardly
required. In the next place, the Honourable Gentle-
man mentioned that the usual course was for Ministers
very early to bring forward the budget, state what taxes
they would remit, and afterwards proceed with supply.
That was not the usual course; very far from it. In
times of peace it was not a very expedient course; in
times of war it would be abshrd and impracticable. The
Honourable Gentleman first had given intormation which
was superfluous, and known to ail the world. Next he
had given information totally incorrect. Ho then went
on to make certain comments on our proceedings with
respect to the finances far the year. What. the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer stated early in the session was
sufficiently pleie. He stated, that having his estimate
of the receipts and expenditure of the year, there ap-
peared a surplus of 1,500,000 L—(" Hear, hear," from
Colonel Sibthorp, and laughter.) He proposed that a
portion of that surplus should be applied to the relief
of public burdens, and another portion to the diminution
of the debt incurred of late years. Nothing could be
more plain than the policy which he proposed to pursue.
It was a policy which, on the 15th of March, tlio Go-
vernment stated they wore pursuing, and one oe' the
duties they proposed to remit, viz., a duty of
Excise which offered considerable hindrance to the
improvemeet of dwellings, had already been re-
mitted.—(Herr, hear.) Such being the general po•
licy of Ministers, he certainly would not accept the
invitation to go into details respecting their financial
measures, or to state now what course they proposed as
to any particular matter. But, as the Hoc. Gentleman
had invited them to this general consideration, and had
called attention to the policy of Ministers, he (Lord J.
Russell) could not help in tarn calling the attention of
the House to the policy pursued by the lion. Member
for Buckinghamshire, because it wets a policy which was
not a tittle re:narkable, and which appeare i to be not a
little wavering and inconsistent. The Hon. Gentleman,
as the public a ere informed by the journals of the day,
propounded before the commencement of the sesiion a
great plan of finance of his own—(Hear, hear)—which,
whether it were advisable to adopt or not, had one
very strong feature its it, and a fature which he thought
was very honourable to the Honourable Gentleman,
namely, that it was a proposition to maintain the credit
of the country very high; to have a very considerable
surplus overexpenditure for the purpose of a sinking
fund, for keeping the funds high, and enabling all per-
sons who bad need of borroviug to do so at a very low
rate indeed. The Honourable Gentleman's plan fur the
purpose might not have agreed with that of those who
had thought much on fieance, but at least it had this
very creditable feature in it—that it was founded on the
basis that the revenue was far to exceed the expenditure
of the country.—(Cheers, and a laugh.) Then, on the
first night of the session the House was told that the
great question was protection ; that the restoration of
protection to agriculture was th main object to be at-
tained, but that that, was not the object of that partieu-
Jar night- athe amendment on the Address did not
exactly contain that proposition. But no sooner was
the amendment to the Address negatived, th in they
were told by the Honourable Gentleman that it was
quite clear the majority of the House was against pro-
tection; that there was no need of talking of it again, or
of making any motion to restore it.—(Hear.) That
was entirely inconsistent with what they had been told
on the first night of the session; but, further than that,
the Hon. Gentleman having in his position turned
Chancellor of the Exchequer during the autumn, chose
to propound a great plan by which the revenue was to
be increased arid kept very high above the expenditure;
land now, for the list month, they had seen that when-
ever anybody brought forward a motion—(Hear, hear).
—whether it were paper, whether it were masse in-
surances, or what not, however little it might all ct toe
agricultural interest, from whomever it might came,
whether from his Right Hon. Friend the Member fur
Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), or any person Who enter-
tained those strong opinions on free trade, the lion.
Gentleman and his friends had been only eager to diminish
the revenue of the country below the expenditure. Why,
the Honourable Gentleman talked of the Government
plan of finance. They were not ashamed of the prin-
ciple of their plan, which combined some relief to the
country with a steady maintaining of surplus, over ex-
penditure. But a course of policy founded on the prin-
ciple of voting with any person who had an objection to
a particular tax, and who, having studied it, thought it
to be more objectionable than any other, and without
considering the general state of our finances to vote for
anything that would impair the credit of the country,
did seem to him, fer a great party, he must say a most
singular and extraordinary course—(Cheers)—and not
either very- wise or very much calculated to raise
them generally in the opinion of the public.—(Renewed
cheering.) And that too, as he • had acid, 'without
much regard as to what the tax might be, or the
purpose of the mover. The mover, perhaps, might be
One who said—" If I take away from you this tax, I
mean, at the same time, to diminish your expense, be-
cause I intend to reduce your army or navy by 20,000
men, and thus to dress the balance and make your re-
ceipts still exceed your expenditure." But the Hon.
Gentleman; end those who had voted with him, had no
excuse of that kind. Is was contrary to their views to
make these great reductions in the expenditure, and
therefore they had exposed themselves to the chance of
being regpontible far making a great inroad on our fi-
nances, and leaving them in that state in which the credit
of the country could not but be Unpaired both in our own
view and the view of all foreign countries.—(Cheers.)
Well, some persons said that the notion was that if that
were dune, then, the revenue of the country not sufficing
for the expenditure, the House of Commons would
find itself obliged to re-impose those taxes on pro-
tection—(Loud cheers from the Opposition, and
counter cheers)—those taxes on the admission of
corn, on the admission of provisions, on the admission
of those various article of general consumption
which it had been the policy of different Governments
'and different Houses of Commons of late years to re-
duce; and, by the cheer which ho had heard—(Renewed
cheers, which drowned the end of the sentence.) Well,
really it seemed, ho must say, a most wild-goose chase
to imagine that because a certain number of gentiemeh
bad voted with them for the reduction of the tax on
windows or paper, that they would thereby find them-
selves in a majority in favour of the restoration of pro•
tection, and that a majority would be found to restore
that which went to enhance the price of food in this
country.e-(Deprecatory " No, no!" from the Protection-
lets, and cheers from other quarters.) He must say that
a more visionary expectation never appeared to hetes
entered the mind of man.—(Renerved cheers.) Well, if
that were their great plan of finance—if the plan 'they
had openly revealed was that they would vote for the dimi-
nution and repeal of any tax with the hope that, texas
once reduced, they might get a duty on the import of all
articles of consumption, and more especially corn, he must
say that a worse plan of finance, a plan based on more
shallow views, a plan which tended more to destroy the
credit of the country in the first place, and to disturb the
peace of the country in the second place, never had been
conceived by a party which had number and wealth and
station in that House.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman
had invited him to this discussion of his plan of fin ince
by the observations he had made upon the plan of the
Government. The Hon. Gentleman, ho was sorry to
see, had so utterly departed from that honourable notion
which he had entertained befere Parliament rust, that
whatever they did they must keep up the credit of the
country and must have a large surplus over expenditure.
He thought, without insisoug on his own, particular
view, that if the Hon. Gentleman had remained firm to
that principle, however he and those who went with
him would haste maintained a high reputation in the
country, it would have been said, at 1 att., that their
policy was honourable, and that it was a policy which
had been followei in the best times .of the history of this
country. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to some-
thing that was supposed to have passed elsewhere. Well,
he (Lord J. Russell) had seen the reports of what passed
" elsewhere," and he saw that it was said that the peo-
ple had begun to ask not only what revision of salaries
and reduction of offices there should be, but whe-
ther it were possible any longer to pay the dividends of
the national debt. He doubted whether such questions
were really and seriously asked by any portion of the
people of this country.—(Hear, bear.) He did not
think it wise, at all events, that such notions should be
set afloat, especially in high places.—(Cheers.) He be-
lieved that no such notion would obtain any credence or
support amongst the people of England generally; and
- •~ought really that it would be far better if Hon.
, Ito te- tn opposite, instead of abandoning all their own
l' Gellskint h- -to endeavour to get into a majority by
*jot" 'l4 otrh-,_ *rain of his Right Hon. Friend the
I)ll°42ng 111 1" ' ere would resort to their own po-
Member. •iv to the House whether they
for Manehesa.
Hey, and would state piano, • ,
1 or-notowabuarnedooencaisti,own,hoer-
wa, thet case, th. ough
intended to adhere fa rotectiot
ther they kept it in reserve, for so..
ers of this
whether, as in fact he believed
torotective
they did not venture to sayitoftoret7gsasirtifa4ma
conatry, they utterly despaired ,
ti
duty.
If that were not so,
(An indignant " No," from the PrOt,otten
benches, and cheering otherwise.)
then let them have .ss direct motion upon the subject.
If they did mean to restore protection, why there was a
large part of the country that was crying out for it, and
saying that as long as free trade lasted every interest
must be suffering.—(Hear, hear.) If that were so—if
the country was really suffering under that infliction of
free trade—if that policy which had been ;inflected since
1842 were utterly mistaken—if the people were really
going on the road to ruin in consequence of that policy,
he said that it was the duty of those who held that be-
lief to bring the question fairly before Parliament. At
all events, be would say that he should not be afraid of
meeting that question; but that he and those who
thought with him would be ready to meet it at,any mo-
raeut.—(Cheers.) He held that at the present time,
while the revenue was sufficient to meet their expenses,
it shoved, both by duties of Excise and many
.other
taxes, tha: there was no falling off in the consumption of
the great artit:fts which
paid duty in this country, _
that there were otter circumstances and reports which
and
would show, and whial should be stated and produced
whenecet that question should b_e
this
tnftory rwwaredre,
nt that
the great Wass' of the people of
in the!t_oym(Lenotwelicabeeergrge.)et comfortss as they ever bad
possess"
If lion. Friend the
. have thought the information
bsse superfluous he could
Lord J. MANNERS said, thaotftheisNoble Lord should
Atember to Buckinghainms
readily understand, ust be unpleasant for the
retheaitmAposstetsm, btlhya,tptl,edggreeadt,
1 I
ilt,is o
fro Lo, r
tdo to
the bep
rr
teumfeotit tildete
od f i t
fi
ing.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord, far from endeavour-
fini-ncial position of the country, had
and impoftal4 itetetet Pin this country was still suffer-
ing to explain the .
issue, and given
partly
most ingeniously
agreeable and more se tuc
' proposition which had bocu matte
\on fact, buth,ereran
diverged from -the real question at
an elaborate statement fdiinded
t . ehin alto very materially on the
tif ground' of fiction, as to a
('
at some thria,o: other
tey his Hon. Friend ate Meinber for Buckinghnoashile.