The Sun.
London, England, 1868-03-31 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS—LAST EVENING.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his slat on the Woolsack
at five o'clock.

PETITIONS.

Lord LONGFORD presented petitions from various
portions of Ireland, praying her Majesty's Government
not to disestablish the Church in Ireland. In these pe-
titions his lordship entirely concurred.
HOSTILITIES ON THE RIVER PLATE.

Lord LYVEDEN moved for returns of the accounts of
hostilities which had recently taken place on the River
Plate.

ID reply, the Earl of MALMESBURY said it was
very difficult to ascertain what, or if any, Eng-
lishmen were detained in Lopez's camp. They
had confined themselves to give directions to the Minister
at Buenos Ayres to inquire into the state of the English-
men *lncarcerated. All therefore they could do at
present for these English subjects was to make these
efforts.
The subject then dropped.

RAILWAYS (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL.
The amendments on this bill were reported.
LEGITIMACY DECLARATION (IRELAND) BILL.
This bill was read a third time and passed.
INDIAN RAILWAY COMPANY BILL.

This bill was read a second time.
ECCLESIASTICAL TITLES IN GREAT BRITAIN

AND IRELAND.

On this bill the following committee were appointed :
The Lord Chancellor, the Archbishop of York,
the Lord Privy Seal, the Duke of Somerset,
Earl Stanhope, the Earl of Carnarvon, Earl of Harrowby,
Earl Granville, Earl Russell, the Bishop of London, the
Bishop of Oxford, Lord Bodes&le, Lord Somerville, and
Lord Lyveden.

The Poor Relief Bill was committed and passed.
The Sea Fisheries Bill was read a second a time.

The Non-Traders Bankruptcy was read a third time
and passed.

Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS-LAST EVENING

The SPEAKER took the Chair at four o'clock.

There was a very full attendance in the galleries this
evening, and amongst the strangers present were Chief
Justice Whiteside and Judges Keogh and Fitzgerald. The
gallery set apart for the peers was fully occupied.
Who Lad Atayor of Dublin promtgl ilyetitio. praying

for the foundation of a Loyal Institution in Dublin similar
to that at South Kensington.
Mr. AYRTON presented a petition from nine of the
jury who trial John Wiggins for the murder of Auu
Oaks. The petitioners stated that although a verdict of
guilty had been returned and the man executed, yet they
now were of opinion that the man had suffered innocently,
and they prayed that inquiry might be colds into the cir-
cumstances for the satisfaction of the relations of the un-
fortunate man.

A great number of petitions were presented on the sub-
j,)ct of the Irish Church, both for and against its discn-
dowinent.

FALSE WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

Ia reply to Lord EUSTACE CECIL,
Mr. HARDY said he was unable•to say when the re-
port of the coni•uission on this subject would be pub-
lished.

ROYAL ACADEMY. -
In reply to Mr. Co:wi.En,
Lord J. MANNERS said he was afraid the new build-
ing was not sufficiently advanced tt) enable the Royal
Academy to vacate the premises they at present held in
Trafalgar-square by the next year.
THE IRISH CHURCH.

The Acts relating to the Irish Church having boon read,
Major STEWART KNOX 'moved that the fifth article
of the act for the union of Great Britain and Ireland be
read. (Cheers.)
The CLERK then read the article, which is as follows:
—" That it be the fifth article of union that the Churches
of England and Ireland, as now by law established, be
united into one Protestant Episcopal `Jhurcb, to be called
the United Church of England and Ireland; and that the
doctrine, worship, discipline, and government of the said
United Church shall be and shall remain in full force for ever
as the same are now by law established for the Church of
Engihnd ; ad that the continuance and preservation of
the said United Church as the Established Chnrch of
England and Ireland shall be deemed and taken to be an
essential and fundamental part of the union ; and that in
like manner the doctrine, worship, discipline, and govern-
ment of the Church of Scotland shall remain and lie pre-
served as the same are now established by law, and by the
acts for the union of the two king loms of England and
Scotland."
The reading of the above was received with loud cheers
by the Ministerial side of the house.
Mr. SURTEES then moved that the act setting forth
the coronation oath taken by her Majesty should bo read.
This having been done,
Mr. GLADSTONE, amid loud cries of "Hoar, hear,' ,
rose to move the following resolutions
"1. That it is necessary that the Established Church of
Ireland should cease to exist as an establishment, due re-
gard being had to all personal interests and to all indivi-
dual rights of property.
" 2. That, subject to the foregoing considerations, it Is
expedient to prevent the creation of new personal interests
by the exercise of any public patronage, and to confine
the operations of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ire-
land to objects of immediate necessity, or involving indi-
vidual rights, pending the final decision of Parliament.
"3. That an humble address be presented to her Ma-
jesty, humbly to pray that, with a view to the purposes
aforesaid, her Majesty would be graciously pleased to
place et the disposal of Parliament her interest in the tem-
poralities of the archbishoprics, bishoprics, and other
ecclesiastioal dignities and benefices in Ireland, and in the
custody thereof."
The right hon. gentleman said it then became his duty to
move that the house now take into consideration the acts
affecting the Irish Church, and in doing so he was glad
that the other hon. members had interfered, because
it showed that they wore about to enter into the
consideration of a question upon a broad basis, and
that they were not to have a warfare of trick
and contrivance—(loud cheers)—but, on the con-
trary, it was to be considered on both sides of
the house in a spirit which befitted the magnitude
of the issue. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord opposite had
to his (Mr. Gladstone's) motion moved an amendment
raising the entire merits of the case, and it cast upon him
the responsibility and duty to state the general nature of
his resolutions in antagonism to the amendment of the
noble lord. In acquitting himself of this duty, he had to
show that the time had come when the Church in Ireland
should cease as an establishment. (Hear, hear.) For thirty
years there had been no sincere desire shown by the
Liberal party to open up the question of the Irish
Church. (near, hear.) He had on various occasions
given votes in committee and partial motions on the sub-
jects, and these votes he was willing to repeat. (Loud
laughter from the Opposition.) The Liberal party,
in his opinion, wan not open to- a charge -of de-
laying the consideration of the question, because
they wore not called upon to eater upon the question
until the time had arrived when there was a prospect of
carrying their views to a successful issue. (Cheers.)
He had made no secret of his opinions on the subject, and
the cause of his not being able honestly to say he was
against all interference with the Church as an establish-
ment lost him his seat for the Oxford University, and he
now sat in the house for Lancashire. It was not the
object of the motion io take away all the revenues of
the Church in Ireland ; it was not, however, proposed to
give to the bishops and clergy of that church for doing
nothing those incomes they had received for doing
something. (Hear, hear.) They would still be called
upon to exercise the duties which they had
had to perform, and so they would continue to do for
the remainder of their lives after the Church had been
disestablished. He felt that the great fears that
had been expressed at the result of his motion
were not grounded on any solid basis. (Hear, hear.)
At present the Church as an establishment held its posi-
tion amongst an estranged and alienated population.
(Hear, hear. He felt that the result of the course
they adopted would be that the Irish Church
would hold its own, respected by all, both in this country
and in Ireland, and that freedom which was so highly
prized by other denominations would not be an
evil to the Anglican Church in lieland, but that by its
own internal energy it would maintain a position such as
it had never occupied before. (Hear, hear.) It was said
that if his motion was carried it would damage Protes-
tantism, and prove most injurious to the interests of the
Church of England, but he entertained no such fear.; and
on the ground of the common good he asked the house to
agree to his proposal for the disendownient of the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland. (Hear, hoar.) Much had
been said on one side of the question ; but could any one
prove that the maintenance of the Anglican Church
in Ireland had been beneficial to Protestantism—
(hear, hear)—that was a material point to show, and it
would be for those who opposed his proposition to state
clearly the good to be derived from keeping that Church
as it at present existed in Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
In his proposal ho asked the house to do two things—
first, to make a declaration ; the other was to ask for an
arrest of all episcopal appointments, and he did not see
that any great evil would result from the latter arrange-
ment. Criticising Lord Stanley's amendment, he argued
that it would convey no consolation to the Irish popula-
tion, that it indicated a desire to agitate the question
(which he himself had carefully escheWed, having
patiently waited until the hour had come), and that it
showed very little respect for the new Parliament, inas-
much as it declined to remove out of its way considera-
tions which must embarrass it in dealing practically with
the question. Dealing next with the argument that this
concession would not pacify the Roman Catholics, Mr.
Gladstone entered into an historical retrospect to show
that all our concessions to Ireland had been the effect of
apprehension; and after examining the character, the cir-
cumstances, and the causes of the present crisis, ho con-
cluded in an eloquent peroration by exhorting the house to
assist in building up, "by the cement of human concord,
the noble fabric of the British Empire."

Lord STANLEY moved as an amendment—" That this
house, while admitting that considerable modifications in
the temporalities of the United Church in Ireland may,
after the pending inquiry, appear to be expedient, is of
opinion that any proposition tending to the disestablish-
ment or disendowment of that church ought to be reserved
for the decision of a new Parliament." lie commenced by
echoing Mr. Gladstone's condemnation of a resort to trick-
ery, more particularly as ho foresaw that great efforts
would be made to put the question on a false issue. Mr.
Gladstone's resolutions, though his speech said much' said
nothing about disendowment; and he objected to them,
first of all, because they were too general, shadowed out no
practical plan, and might be construed in any sense.
Those who meant by disestablishment the release of
the Church from State control might accept tho reso-
lutions with the reservation that they should retain the
endowment. The resolutions avoided all the real diffi-
culties of the case, and gave no inkling of the manner in
which the process of disestablishment was to be effected.
But the real question, Lord Stanley said, was not whether
anything should be done, but what was the particular
thing to be done. Not one educated man out of a hundred
("and I," Lord Stanley said, "am not the one") would
maintain that the ecclesiastical establishment of Ireland
was all that it should be, or that there were no scandals
in it ; but those who called for a disturbance of the
existing state of things wore under an obligation to
indicate some practical solution. Lord Stanley dismissed
next the numerous plans suggested for the disposal of
the property of the Irish Church, remarking that at
present public opinion could not see its way to the practi-
cability of one of them ; and he maintained that Mr.
Gladstone's Resolutions merely came to this— that some-
thing must he done, without saying what it was. Even
if the resolutions wore carried, what was to be done then ?
There could be no legislation this year except that re-
quired to carry out the two last resolutions, which was no
legislation at all. They might pledge this Parliament
which must come to an end almost immediately, but they
Could izot pledge the now conatituoncies, who must, Di a

I matter of course, take up this question first of all. Reite-
rating his objections to the unpractical character of the
resolutions and the impossibility of taking action on them
now, or of pledging the Parliament of the future, Lord
Stanley deprecated this particular mode of raising
the question—appealing, to the experience of the
Appropriation Clause and the Reform Resolution
of 1859, and insinuating that the real object' of
the Opposition was to get a good electioneering cry.
Disclaiming all desire to taunt either Mr. Gladstone
or the Liberal party with inconsistency (for on that head
.each side required allowance to be mid he condemned
strongly a change so sudden as the present, which would
not wait for the necessary business of the session to be
completed, but called for a resolution to which no practical
, effect could avowedly be given, and about the details of
which Its supporters would inevitably disagree the mo-
ment they began to carry them out. As to this being
a message of peace to Ireland, would it be so received
in the North? On the contrary, it would produce
bitterness and animosity, and ho denied that it would
conciliate the Roman Catholic peasantry, who regarded
as of greater importance the laud and the education
questions.. Lord Stanley concluded by defending his
amendment, the moaning of which was that the work
of the session was sufficient for the session. When-
ever action was necessary the Government would
not be unprepared for it, but action now was impossible,
and the Government objected to pledging in any way the
judgment of the next Parliament.
Mr. E. A. LEATHA?I argued that the abolition of the
Irish Church was necessary for the pacification of Ire-
land, but was for breaking the fall as gently as possible.
Mr. POLLARD-URQUHART supported the resolu-
tions, and exhorted the Ministerialists to deal with them
frankly and meet them with a manly negative.
Mr. MONCREIFF was of opinion that Lord Stanley's
speech had given the death-blow to the Irish Church, and
he combated at some length the suggestion that this Par-
liament, which had passed a Reform Bill for England and
was engaged in passing bills for Scotland and Ireland,
could not pass these resolutions. Ile argued, too, against
the objection that the resolutions would touch the Churches
of England and Scotland, and he insisted that the removal
of this grievance would be effected by the Protestant
feeling of the Country.

Lord CRA.N BORNE, though ready to meet the resolu-
tions with a plain straightforward negative, refused to
support an amendment the object of which was merely to
gain time, and to enable the Government to keep the
cards in their hands for another year to shuffle as they
pleased.

Mr. LAING supported the Resolutions, but feeling that
it would be impossible to give them practical effect this
year, he intimated that if they were carried he should
move an amendment deferring further action until after an
appeal to the new constituencies.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL, while not shrinking
from condemning the Resolutions themselves, argued that
the House ought not now to pronounce an opinion upon
them. But for the proposal to follow them up by legisla-
tion, the second Resolution would be illegal and the third
unconstitutional, and the Queen, he contended, ought not
to be asked to do anything contrary to her Coronation
Oath by the mere vote of one Rouse of Parliament.
Just before midnight the debate was adjourned, on the
motion of Mr. Hardy.

Some other orders were forwarded a stage, and the
house adjourned at half-past 12 o'clock.