The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-15 00:00:00

on the previous evening, but, unfortunately, his sentiment
that concession had reached its utmost limits had gone
forth to the country, and the Irish people believed that
he was in earnest when he made that declaration.
The Right Honourable Baronet said he deprecated the
establishment of a military Government in Ireland, be-

lieving that in any country it would be attended with
the most lamentable effects ; but his own words were

inconsistent with his professions. It was now the fashion
to adopt a centralising system. He (Lord Clements) had
always been opposed to that system. In Ireland there
were 9,000 policemen, under 277 officers, and the whole
of this force was under the control of a single individual.
From such a system the greatest evils might be expected.
He had the best authority for asserting that the police
of Ireland resembled a military force, and that it was so
in fact for all practical purposes. This force-was not
only dangerous to the liberty of the country, but it im-
posed a heavy burden on the Irish people. In the
county of Tipperary alone the cost of the police force
was upwards of 40,000/. The Right Hon. Baronet de-
clared that he had no wish to continue the present mili-
tary force in Ireland, but he manifested no disposition
whatever to reduce it. The great number of abuses in
the superannuations tended to show that the Govern-

ment did not contemplate any alteration. Considering
that the Arms' Bill of last session was proposed to aid the
constabulary force of Ireland, he thought they ought to
have seen that it .was perfectly carried into effect. He
denied, however, that such had been the case. The con-

stahulary officers had not even registered their own
arms; and it was his intention to move for a return
in order to show that this statement was correct. There

was an order of the most stringent character from the
head of the police in Dublin, before there was any Act
to regulate the importation of arms into Ireland. Yet
the police of Dublin anticipated the Act of Parliament,
and gave authority to search, at the very time that the
olause was under discussion in that House.—(Hear, hear.)
He would now read to the House what he considered a

most distressing case, under the operation of the Arms
Act. Mr. John Hall, who was licensed to make and sell

arms, in Aungier-street, Dublin, died last year, and the
police of Dublin took possession of his stock before let-
ters of administration were taken out. Gentlemen op-
posite might laugh, but let them put themselves in the
position of the deceased man.—(Laughter.) Let them put
themselves in the gun-maker's case.—(A laugh.) Let
them put themselves in the widow's case.—(Great
laughter.) He would not tire the House with dwelling
upon a hardship, with which gentlemen opposite could
have no sympathy,—(Hear, hear.) They had shown in
the course of the evening that they had sympathies for
their own class, but they had none for a bereaved widow
and the oppressed orphans. But he would now state to
them the case of a gentleman-,—Colonel fodder—who
was called upon to pay a duty of 21. 12s. 6d. for a license
to carry his own gun into Ireland. But Colonel Hodder
did not think the gun was worth the cost of the license.
—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) Gentlemen would laugh,
and might taught again.—(Renewed laughter.) But was
it a matter of laughter that the principal provisions of
the Act had been neglected by the officers of the Go-

vernment, the officers of the army, and the police them-
selves ? The Act provided that it should be proclaimed
in every county. But in the county which he
had tha honour to represent, there had been
no proclamation.—(Hear, hear.) The officers of the
army had not registered their arms, nor had the police
done so.—(Hear, hear.) He could come to the law of
tenure, on which he would say no more (because an
inquiry was going on upon the subject) than this—that
the law of distress and ejectment required alteration
more than any other of which the people of Ireland had
to complaim. He had himself known cattle of the
value of 25/. to be taken away and sold for a debt of 31.
----t(Hear, hear.) In the case of con-acre, the grievance
was still more serious. The hardship pressed severely
upon the poor, and required alteration far more than
even the law of ejectment. He had the misfortune to
live amongst the poorest part of the population, and
he regretted to say that the poorer they were, the more
they were oppressed.—(Hear, hear.) There was hardly
a day passed that he did not hear of complaints from the
poor of cases of the most flagrant oppression and unjust
neglect on the part of the magistracy. He admitted
that the subject of con-acre was one of great difficulty
for a Government to handle. Still it was so great an
evil that something should be done. He had done all
in his power to dissuade the people in his neighbour-
from this species of gambling. But food was such a
rarity amongst them that they would run any hazard to
obtain it. He thought it would be very much to the
advantage of the people of Ireland if the gentlemen
having property there would turn their attention to the
subject of con-acres. As matters now were, it was far
better for the.poor man to purchase his potatoes in the
market than to go in debt to possess the doubtful ad-
vantage of a con-acre. The system was fraught with
evil, and led to continuous discontent and quarrelling.
Hon. Gentleman, when speaking of the poor of Ireland
generally, referred to the Roman Catholic population.
In the present instance he did not mean to do so. He
meant to advocate the case of the poor Protestant popu-
lation, whose sufferings were equally great as those of
the Roman Catholics. The Protestant poor of the pre-
sent day in Ireland were men who had fallen from a state
wherein they possessed a competence and comfort into a
state of abject misery and distress, in consequence of the
system of legislation which was adopted in respect to
that country. He alluded to the class who were known
as the middle-men in former times. He recollected an
instance in which a gentleman who had formerly
sat with him (Lord Clement) on the Grand
Jury, had fallen into such a state of poverty
that his wife, who had been educated as a lady,
and had been accustomed to the luxuries of a lady
of rank, was now obliged to milk her own cows.
All those evils were to be attributed to ill-directed
legislation. The passing of one measure alone would
not remedy that state of things. The Legislature,
in order to effect- any good, must be anxiously
watchful to improve the means, and foster the industry
of the people. Then, with respect to education, he must
say that unless the Government were prepared to adopt
the hint thrown out last night by the Hon. Member for
Waterford (Mr. Wyse), to establish colleges throughout
the country, for the gentry and middle classes, be thought
those who were now studying in the national-schools
would far outstrip in information and intelligence those
who considered themselves far superior to them in rank.
There was also another subjeet of complaint ; it was the
condition in which many of the parishes were with re-
spect to religious instruction. In the parish next to the
one in which he lived the rector was an absentee. It
was impossible that the curate could do all the duty im-
posed upon him, and thus many who paid tithes received
no benefit whatever. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
he thought, were at fault in the matter. It was by at-
tending to such subjects as those he had mentioned, and
not by State prosecutions, that the people of Ireland
would become satisfied, and peace and tranquillity be es-
tablished in the country.
Mr. YOUNG said that one of the subjects of com-
plaint enumerated by the Noble Lord who had just sat
down, was the Arms Bill. That was a measure
which needed no vindication ; but, if it did, he
might be allowed to state one fact, viz., that
under the old system there were only 10,000 stand of
arms registered, while, under the system established by
the last Arms Bill there were 120,000 stand of arms re-
gistered—so much for, the alleged grievance of the Arms
Bill. The point on which the main difference of opinion
seemed to exist, appeared to be this—that on the oppo -
site side of the House they were willing to do away with
the Protestant Establihment in Ireland, and that Hon.
Members on his side were not willing to do so. On the
other side, in the course of this debate, much stress had
been laid on a sentiment which fell last session from the
Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department. He referred to the words that concession
had reached its point, and could go no further.—
(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.) Now,
when the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) had
used these words, it was in reference to the Catholic
Church, and not to the sister country. So, too, had it
been explained last evening by that Right Hon. Gentle-
man himself. And he was perfectly right in so using
the words, and the declaration would have the most ex
cellent effect, How could it be expected, after all that
had been said and done by Mr. O'Connell, but that he
wished to do away with the dignities and emoluments of
the Established Church? The emoluments of that
Church had been reduced, and with no unsparing hand;
and they were by no means so great as its enemies
wished the world to believe. Nor were those who
differed from the Church Establishment in Ireland sub-
jected to the annoyances and insults which had been
asserted. Church-rates had 'been abolished, several
bishoprics had been reduced, a portion of the tithes had
been given up, the other portion was paid by the land-
lords etnhteasgationtluie,ourlednt,beatnod,thife tlhanatthpordors-
t io n weren an
taken ka eg agreement
e oe
and not to any other class whatever.--(Hear, hear.) He
now came to that which was the real question before
the House. It was whether the principles of the party
which had now the majority in that House were such as
would bear the test of reason and justice—whether they
were in accordance with the enlightenment of the age
and the spirit of the British Constitution. Now, it was
admitted on all hands that the grievances which afflicted
Ireland were not of easy or speedy cure; and he believed
that all impartial men were of opinion that the party to
which he belonged were doing their best to lay the
foundation for this cure. But it was asserted by the late
Ministry, in their usual off hand way, that all the evils
of Ireland were of easy remedy. He (Mr. Young) did
not think so, nor did those who best knew the country
by long residence in it. The two most prominent evils of
Ireland might be found in the evidence of Mr. Drummond,
than whom no man had exercised a more sound judg-
ment in regard to her affairs, or evinced a sincerer re-
gard for her.—(Hear.) That lamented gentleman had de-
clared that the chief evils were a bad administration of
justice, and secret societies working on a mass which,
through poverty, had become reckless. Now the reme-
dies which Governments of late years had designed for
these evils were a better administration of justice, an im-
proved system of constabulary, a poor-law, and an ex-
tension of national education. Now could it be fairly
said that the present Government bad been wanting in
their efforts to carry out these remedies ?—(Hear, hear.)
The administration of justice had been greatly improved
of late years, and the late Government, he fairly ad-
mitted, had so improved the constabulary force, though
at a very great cost, that it was now one of the most
efficient forces in Europe. The next remedy, the poor-
law, the country owed to the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord John Russell), and he thought that Ireland ought
ever to be most grateful to him for it, for he believed it
to be admirably, suited to the habits and genius of the
Irish people. That law was receiving from the present
Government every support and encouragement, and he had
no doubt that when by their fostering care it had got
into full and fair development, it would produce all
those vast advantages of which it was capable. But
there were other advantages, besides its own intrinsic
ones, of which it was being made capable. It was be-
ginning to afford a nucleus for other societies, whose pro-
ceedings and labours would be prodnctive of excellent
consequences. Already many agricultural societies had
been brought into existence by its agency, many others

were about to be formed, and there could be not doubt that
their results would have the happiest effect on the resout ces
and industry of the country.—(Hear, hear.) Then there
was the system of national education—a measure on
which certainly much difference of opinion had pre •
nailed in that Howe and throughout the country. That
measure had received the best support from the present
Government of the country, although he was sorry to
say at the expense of some political support, and con-
siderable political popularity. They were indebted also
to the present Chief Secretary of Ireland (Lord Eliot)
for two measures which he knew would confer

great advantages on Ireland—he alluded to the
measures for the improvement of inland navigation,
and the encouragement of the most important branches
of national education.—( Hear, hear.) Of the evils to
which he had adverted, the combination of workmen,
and the existence of secret societies must be looked upon
as the greatest. He was ready to admit that these societies
had no direct political object. But though he would admit
this, they were all acquainted how, in that country, by
some insidious means or other, agitation connected itself

with disaffection, from whence sprung, at all times, a
tendency to disturbance. These matters always, some-
how or other, merged in agitation, disaffection,
and disturbance. Taking this view of the consequences
of agitation, it was evidently the duty of Government
to suppress it in every way, and it was on this account
that he rejoiced at the institution of the recent trials,
and the success which attended them. There had been

much forbearance exhibited by the Ministry before in-
stituting these trials, and many persons had blamed
them for it, but he confessed he thought they had exer-

cised a sound. discretion. But forbearance must have

its limit, although the grand difficulty was to fix where
that limit should be. It might have been drawn at
one meeting or at another meeting ; but this he
would not hesitate to say, that at whatever time it was
drawn there would have been found plenty of Members
on the other side of the House to mark it with disappro-
bation.—(Hear, hear.) But it was said by the Noble
Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) that these measures
would not produce permanent tranquillity, and that to Mr.
O'Connell and his friends, and to them alone, was owing
the present peace in Ireland. Now, he begged to say
that that opinion was by no means shared in by men
who lived in Ireland, and who had the very best means
of judging what was desirable for her welfare and ne-
cessary for her peace. It was the opinion of these men,
watching with unceasing anxiety the course of events in
that country, that they owed nothing of good, nothing
of peace, and nothing of tranquillity to Mr. O'Connell,
but rather a sense of danger to them all.—(Hear, hear.)
They thought certainly that Ireland had made great
progress of late years, but that progress was by no
means owing to the causes or the persons pointed out
by Hon., Gentlemen on the other side of the House.
That prosperity was mainly owing to the vast
extension of steam navigation. encouraging com-
munication, and developing her natural advantages and
industrial energies to a wonderful degree.—(Cheers.)
But they were told to rely on the popular leaders for
the peace and prosperity of Ireland. True, at various
public meetings Mr. O'Connell had made great promises
on this head. He had said that when the union was re-

pealed there would be universal peace and happiness in
Ireland. Yes, there was to be fixity of tenure, and
every other blessing; whilst on the ruins of the Estab-
lished Church, should be raised the standard of univer-
sal freedom and toleration. He would quote, as a
parallel to the speeches of Mr. O'Connell, one little para-
graph from a man who, like that agitator, had in another
country wielded " the fierce democracy." It ran thus
" People have by their conduct confounded all their
enemies ; not one has been shot in the struggle; not one
drop of blobd has been shed ;—how worthy of the en-
lightened people among whom it rose." Were not these
words identical with those which generally marked the
speeches of Mr. O'Connell ? Undoubtedly they were.
And the words he had quoted were those used by
Robespierre, at the breaking out of that Revolution
which deluged France with blood, and handed over her
people to those fiendish tribunals which had for ever
earned an infamous notoriety to the- period in her his-
tory known as the Reign of Terror.—(Hear, hear.)
He was firmly convinced that of the thousands who at-
tended the great meetings at Tara, and other places,
there was not one who was not persuaded that the re-
peal was to be carried by their mere appearance at those
meetings, and the speeches made there. But he was
sure that there was a fund of good sense in the Irish
people that would, now they saw those meetings were
opposed to the Constitution, induce them to refrain from
such proceedings.
Sir G. GREY said, whatever difference of opinion might
exist as to some of the topics that had been introduced
into this debate, whatever difference of opinion might be
found in that House as to the policy of her Majesty's
Government with regard to Ireland, and as to the mea-
sures which the present state of that country demanded,
he thought there was one point on which the House
was agreed—there was one point on which no difference
could exist—he meant as to the important crisis under
which the motion of his Noble Friend had been sub-

mitted to the consideration of the House.—(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") It had not been denied by the
Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary of State,
or by • any gentleman who had addressed the House,
that there was deep and wide-spread excitement and
dissatisfaction in the great bulk of the population of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It had not been denied that
Ireland was now occupied by a military force—that it
was held by military occupation.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed,
if any difference of opinion did exist upon this point,
he would say the case had been still stronger put by
the Right Hon. Baronet himself than by his
Noble. Friend. The Right Hon. Baronet stated in
distinct and emphatic terms last night, and he would not
question the accuracy of that statement—that such was
the risk of that portion of her Majesty's dominions—
such was the emergency of affairs in that part of the
kingdom, that this military occupation was rendered
necessary by an attempt to wrest the country by
physical power from the authority of the British
Crown. Under these circumstances, his Noble Friend
asked the House not for a Select Committee of
inquiry, but, adopting the constitutional mode usually
taken at such a crisis, he asked the House to consent to
resolve itself into a Committee, by which the whole
state of Ireland might be duly weighed and considered ;
he took this step to enable them to express their sense
of the importance of the crisis which had ar-
rived, and to express their determination to
take such measures as might avert the cala-
mity of Ireland being separated from the British
Crown. And on what grounds, he would ask, did the
Government invite the House to reject the motion of his
Noble Friend? What grounds of hope or encourage-
ment for the future--(Cheers)--were stated by. the Right
Hon. Baronet, in his speech of last night, or by the only
other Member of the Government who had addressed the
House—the Hon. Member who had just sat down ? He
admitted that the Right Hon. Gentleman objected to
this continued military occupation of any portion of her
Majesty's dominions ; that he stated that he did not
look to that as the permanent remedy for the evils that
afflicted that country, or for the permanent security of
that portion of the empire. The Right Hon. Baronet
stated this; but the Hon. Gentleman who had

just sat down said that the population of Ire-
land did look to the army for the maintenance
of public peace and security. He would ask, what were
the measures which the Government contemplated.?
What course of policy were they ready to lay before the
House, as the one they were determined to pursue, that
would enable any reasonable man to think, taking the
policy they had hitherto pursued, that it was one likely
to win back the affections of the people of Ireland, which
had been alienated from the Imperial Parliament ?
whether it was one calculated to detach one man from

the ranks of the repeal agitation ?—(Loud cheers.) Ire.
land, it was admitted, was occupied by military force.
There was some confusion as to figures last night, and
the Right Hon. Gentleman elicited a cheer from his
supporters by attempting to show that there had been
but a comparatively small increase in the military force
stationed in Ireland. Why, from the figures laid on
the table of the House, it appeared that on the Ist
of January, 1844, as compared with the Ist of January,
1843, there had been an increase of 7,000 rank and file
—(Loud cheering)—to the army in that country ; yet a
cheer was elicited last night by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, by a statement that there had been no increase in
the army. The Noble Lord on the opposite side (Lord
Stanley), with that great zeal which distinguished him
when he spoke in defence of any Government
of which he happened to be a member,
would probably share the sense of security which
the Government felt from the display of this large force,
provided and guided by the master hand and the master
mind—(Loud cheers)—and would express his confidence
in the efficiency of the portion of her Majesty's troops
stationed in Ireland for the maintenance of the public
tranquillity in that country, and to effect, for some time
at least, that security for which the Right Honourable
Gentleman relied upon the army.—(Hear.) The
House must recollect that there had been an
increase of 7,000 men, rank and file, during the last few
months in Ireland in addition to the naval force.—
(Loud cheers)—stationed on the coast—in addition to a
batta'ion of marines.—(Loud cheers.) He did not find
the slightest' fault with the Government for this. In
the state to which Ireland was brought, it was the duty
of the Government to provide such a force.—
(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He
quite concurred with those Hon, Gentlemen that
in the state to which Ireland was reduced
under that Government, of which they were the sup-
porters—(Cheers from the Opposition)--he was quite
free to admit, that in such a state of affairs it was the
duty of the Government to maintain the authority of
the Crown, and the security of the British Empire. But
was this military occupation to be a permanent system ?
If it was not to be a permanent system, what was to be
the change in the policy which had produced this State
of thing; what was to be the future course of the Go-
tvhe
er ninmaeinntt
maintenance
aonne
ewehfa tt
hmee ansdi d
tranquillity t eyeintendl
atnod raenldy
the
security of the British Empire ? He would not at the
present moment allude to any of the specific measures
which had been mentioned as being in contemplation.
The Right Hen. Baronet had addressed the House in an
able and elaborate speech, as all his speeches
were, and he was happy to be able to add
his opinion, that it possessed one quality which
he wished his speeches had possessed when
the Right Hon. Baronet sat on these benches.—(Loud
cheers.) It possessed the quality of being remarkably
calm and temperate.--(Cheers.) He must do the Right
Hon. Gentleman the credit of saying that, spesking
under the sense of that awful responsibility which rested
upon him as the particular Minister responsible for the
peace of Ireland, he had in his speech carefully avoided
any expression that could tend to increase the present
irritation or excite angry feelings. He could only say
that he wished that at the time When the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and those with whom he acted, sat on these,
the Opposition benches—(Loud cheers)—he had always
used language as temperate and moderate. But he
feared that the language that those gentlemen had then
used had sunk too- deeply into the minds of the Irish
people to be soon forgotten.—(Cheers.) The speech of