The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-16 00:00:00

THE SUN,

such district hereafter to be constituted within five years
from the date of the licence of the minister first licensed
thereto, and this notwiths'anding that any such dis-
trict may have hicome a new parish by virtue of the
provisions of the Act under which such district was con-
sti tuta d."
Mr. S. HERBERT then moved 19 clauses, having re•
ference to the holding benefices with the cure of sous
by deans, canons resident'ary, the residence of the same,
the augmentation of canonrie-, the establishment of pas-
toral colleges, &c. He did not intend that all the re-
solutions woich he proposed should be applicable to
every dean and chapter, but he would give thin]] a choice
in selecting those by which they were to be re-
gulated. It had been an evil which had been felt in the
Church for some time throughout England, that every
day the number of small cures was increasing. The
number of these small cures not exceeding 130/. a year
was increasing. It was of great importance that they
should have men of elevated minds in the ministry, and ,
it a lower class of persons were encouraged to enter the
Church as in other countries, they would be doir, a
great injury to the cause of religion and morality. He
had had in making these propositions adhered strictly to the
provisions of the old statutes. It had been asked, if
that were the case, why should he go to the (louse of
Commons to carry out his views? He had consulted
legal authority upon his propositions, and he had It arned
that the s'atutes in question were so old that their pro-
visions could not be brought into vigour. The Noble
Lord might tell him that his clauses were a Bill in them-
selves, and ought to be brought in as a separate mea-
sure; but the Noble Lord knew very well the difficulty
a private Member laboured under in bringing in a mea-
sure of that importance. He therefore trusted the Go-
vernment would give every fair consideration to his
clauses, and he would then conclude by moving the first
of them.
Sir G. GREY said the Hon. Gentleman himself had
anticipated the objections which might be made to his
clauses. That Bill had come down from the House of
Lords with a certain number of clauses; but the Hon.
Member proposed to wit' no less than 19 to it.. These
clauses might be very important, and the Hon. Gentle-
man asked them to agree to them, and add them to a

Bill which had no connexion whatsoever with the same.
No doubt these clauses ought to be the subject of a
separate Bill, and no doubt were deserving of separate
and distinct consideration. It was quite clear that
many of the clauses cculd not be adopted in their pre-
sent state, however worthy of consideration, and, there-
fore, he trusted the Hon Gentleman had only introduce)
them in order that they might be fully considered by the
House.
Mr. GLADSTONE would wish to hear a more defi-
nite assurance from the Government of their opinion
upon those clauses that had been given. It had been
said that a certain reform had taken place in the Church
in 1840. lie denied that it was any reform. Excepting
the case of the archdeacons, however, they had not
effected any practical reform. The objection, then
was, that there were large emoluments to large
bodies of men with no duties. Well, they had re-
duced the number of the men, but they had not
made any proportionate reductio❑ in the emo-
luments with respect to the duties for those who re-
mained. 'Thus the evil had remained.—(Hear, hear.)
It was impossible to say how immense was the difficulty
of calling the attention of Parliament to the subject, and
putting a plan of reform into a practicable shape. The
question could not be brought on except at the close of
the session, and it was then difficult to get the House to
give their mind to the consideration of the practical de-
tails of the proposed reform. The only objection to the
series of clauses proposed by his Right lion. Friend was,
that the rights of patronage would be affectei; but then
that objection was more apparent than real. The reform
that had taken place in 1840 was no reform at all. The
system was, in fact, made more absurd and anomalous
than before. The real salutary principle of annexing
duties to these high preferments had been recognised
but had not been fully acted upon, and until that prin-
ciple was fully carried out—until those anomalies had
been rectified—they would not have carefully attended
to the interests of the Church, and to the noble

principles on which our cathedral establishmants were
founded.

Mr. AGLIONBY pointed out one part in which he
considered the clauses would not be sufficiently operative.
Mr. J. STUART considered the reasons assigned by
the Government for not a ;opting the additions were
meagre, slight, and unsatisfactory. The reason assigned,
that the clauses might be embodied in a separate Act,
was not a valid argument for rejecting them. They
were essential for the interests of the Church, and ought
to be adopted.
Sir B. HALL considered that the propositions of the
Hon. Gentleman would go far to effect the desirable ob-
ject of making the Church more useful and respected.
Thero was a scheme for dividing populous parishes pro-
mised by Government, and this scheme was so good and
so essential that the Government ought to have given it
attention before this. He wished to know whether Go-
vernment intended to propose a scheme early in the ea-
suing session for dividing certain large parishes, and
also whether a scheme of a similar sort had no been
prepared this session, but not brought forward. He
hoped the Government would say why. He cordially
thanked the Right Hon. Gentleman for the additional
clauses which he had brought forward.
_ _ . _ _

Mr. P. WOOD said the Hon. Meuabor for Montrose
had fairly stated hip wish that deans and cinonries
should be abolished, but he hoped Government had no
such intention or wish. The deans and canonries were

formerly collegiate bodies, but in course of time they had
lost their duties, and had dwindled down into more offices
of large emolument. Now, he hoped the Government
would t Ake this circumstance into consideration, and be
induced to acknowledge the expediency of j.)ining duties
to those offices, so that they should no longer be mere
sioecures. He hoped Government would bring firward
some scheme which would do away with the present
abuses of the cathedral and canonry system. When Go-
vernment were about this reform, it would be a good
opportunity to take into consideration the increase of the
episcopate. Incited the whole question might then be
fully and completely considered.
Mr. lIUME would recommend those Hon. Gentlemen
who wished to re-establish these large colegiate end ca-

thedral institutions to recollect the different circum-
stances of the country now to what they were when
these institutions were established. He was sure if ca-
thedral establishments were re-established in all their
magnitude and grandeur that the interests of the Church
would suffer, and he further declared that he was cer-
tain the people would not endure than. He recommended
the abolition of all sinecures in the Church Establish-
ment as the best means of securing the interests of the
Church.

Mr. HENLEY did not think the clause , as proposed,
would effect the objects which their proposer and sup-
porters appeared to consider to be so desirable. The
operation of such a set of clauses would really effect that
which the Hon. Member fur Montrose wished to see—
namely, the abolition of these bodies altogether. Such,
at least, would be the effect of these clauses as he read
them. lie regretted that a measure of this great import-
ance had not been introduced in a separate Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the Hon. Member
for Oxford, when he found fault with the Bill of 1540,
had not recollected the object of the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission, which was to provide for spiritual destitution
by funds obtained from a diminution of the canonries.
He doubted very much whether the scheme proposed by
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member f)r Wilts would
be found to answer its purpose. The Right lion. Gen-
tleman proposed that a clergyman holding a canonry
should not hold a living, except within the cathedral

city. That might answer in populous places, like West-
minster; but he doubted whether it would answer
throughout the country generally.
Mr. S. lIERBERT, in answer to the remark of the
Hon. Member for Montrose, denied that his plan was to
restore all the old cathedral establishments quite the
contrary. He was glad ho had called the attention of
the House to the subject.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—

For the clauses ... 84
Against them ... ... 104
Majority against them ... —2O
The Bill was then ordered t) be repotted.
The report on the resolution for a monument to Sir R.
Peel was brought up and agreed to.
The Militia Ballots Suspension Bill, the Loan Socie-
ties Bill, and the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Bill, were
read a third time and passed.
The Poor Relief Bill, as amended, was considered
and ordered to be read a third time on Friday, at twelve
o'clock. _ . .

The Bills of Exchange Bill passed through Committee,
as did al,o the Stock-in-trade Bill, and the Turnpike
Acts Continuance, &c., Bill.
POPULATION BILL.
On the question that the Population Bill be read a
third time,
Mr. NESVDEGATE wished to know whether any
arrangement had been mado for the provision of a better
occupation abstract than had hitherto been given. In
the last abstract the whole proprietary body were to-
tally omitted, and not one London proprietor was
named?

Mr. C. LEWIS said the census would not be taken
till the latter end of March next, and thera would be
ample time to prepare a proper scheme for making the
abstract.

After a few remarks from Mr. HENLEY,
The Bill was read a third time, and passed.
Tho Population (Ireland) Bill was also read a third
tittle and passed.
The Upton-cum-Chalrey Marriages Validity Bill
passed through Committee.
The Highway Rates Bill was read a second time.
The Public-houses (Scotland) Bill was ordered to be
read a second time that day six months.
Mr. SOTHERON postponed the Friendly Socitiea
Bill until next Friday.
The Cruelty to Animals (Scotland) Bill was read a
second time.
The Committee on the Engines for Taking Fish (He..
land) Bill was postponed till this day.
MARRIAGES BILL.
Mr. S. %VORTLEY moved that this Bill do pass.
Mr. GOULBURN was not disposed to offer any fur-
th.-r opposition to it.
The Bill then passed.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past One.