The Sun.
London, England, 1868-05-01 00:00:00

THE CONVICT BARRETT.

Mr. REAIIDEN asked the Sen-etary of State for
the Home Department whether it was his Mention
to rec..intnend to the Crown the respiting of 1113 pri-
soner Michael B irrett, against whom a verdict of guilty
Was returned by the jury, and sentence of d,ath passed
by the judge on his trial at the Old Miley on the 27th
inst., notwithstanding the sworn testimony of six wit-
nesses, who proved that the prisoner was not in England
at the time the crima was committed for which he has
been found guilty, in order to afford the prisoner an op-
portunity of producing further evidence to establish his
innocence.

Mr. HARDY said he regretted that any member of the
house should have felt it his duty to put such a question
to him. (Hear, hear.) Ho should decline to answer it.
(Hoar, hear.)
Mr. REARDEN then gave notice that he should call the
attention of the house to the subject on Monday next.
THE COLDSTREAM GUARDS.
In reply to Sir P. O'BRIEN,

Sir J. PAKINGTON said the delay in filling up the
vacancy in the Coldstream Guards in succession to Lieut.-
Colonel Clive was not connected with any intention to
reduce the number of officers, but by the non-qualification
by service of a number of ensigns in the regiment.
T iziE IRISH CHURCH.

Sir C. LANYON asked the right hon. member for
South Lancashire whether, when he presented a petition
on the 27th inst. from the Presbytery of Antrim, in favour
of his resolutions, and against the further grant of the
Regium Donum, he was aware that said presbytery was
altogether unconnected with the General Assembly of the
Presbyterian Church of Ireland, and that the said Pres-
bytery was altogether an Unitarian body, and did not re-
present the feelings of the Presbyterians of the General
Assembly of Ireland.

Mr. GLADSTONE expressed his surprise at such a
question being put to him. He should not sly whether or
not he was aware of the matter referred to, but he believed
he had correctly described the body petitioning, viz., the
non-subscribing Presbytery of Antrim. (Hear, hoar.)
On the motion for going into committee on the resolu-
tions moved by Mr. Gladstone,
Mr. SURTEES moved that the clerk at the table read
the words of the Roman Catholic oath as they existed
before the alteration in 1866. (Loud cheers and cries of
" No, no.")
Mr. BODVERIE and Mr. GLADSTONE rose together amidst
great excitement in the house, when there were loud cries
for the latter.

Mr. BOUVEREE refused to give way. Ho said he did
not think it was competent according to the rules of the
house to move that certain words of an act that had been
repealed should bo read by the clerk at the table. (Loud
cries of "Hear, hear.")
Mr. GLADSTONE moved a direct negative to the mo-
tion of the hon. gentleman (Mr. Surtees). (Loud cheers,
and cries of " Chair, chair.")
The SPEAKER said he thought the words of the oath
would apply tothe persons who had taken it at the time of
the alteration, yet the question that remained with the
house was, whether the present time was proper for read-
log it. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Mr. GLADSTONE again r6se and said he opposed the
motion, because it was calculated to stir up the embers of re-
ligious animosity—(cheers)—because it would tend to nar-
row the privileges of hon. members by placing some
apparent opinion between the Roman Catholic members
and the great and solemn duty they had to perform.
(Cheers, cries of "No, no," "Read, read," and great ex-
citement.)
Mr. DISRAELI hoped his hon. friend would not per-
severe in his motion. If he wished to refer to an his-
torical document which had now become obsolete, he
could do so in his speech. (Cheers.) It could serve no
good purpose by his insisting on the words being read.
(Cheers.)
Mr. SLRTEES said, after the intimation from the
Speaker that he considered the words still binding he
should withdraw the motion. ("No, no," and calls for a
division.)
The SPEAKER, however, put the question, when it
was negatived by an immense majority of '•noes," fol-
lowed by loud cheering.
The adjourned debate was then resumed
S:r M. BEACH argued against the motion for dis-
endowment, but admitted the present distribuilon of the
revenues of the Church was unjust, He thought that the
late elections, especially Bristol, showed that the people
were not in favour of the proposition of the right hOn.
gentleman opposite, because had such been the case, a
person pledged to support the Church in Ireland would
not have been returned.

Sir C. O'LOGHLEN said, whatever was said of the
Irish members, it could not be alleged that th9y had con-
tributed to the length of the present debate. As it
was the got desire that the diTisio4 ahould be taken

that evening ho should now occupy the attention of the
house but a very few minutes. Ho thought the matter
had been virtually decided when the " motion was car-
ried for going into committee, and that the goutlemen
who now occupied the Treasury Bench were not,
in fact, the governing power of the country, but that they
were in truth the Opposition. ((fear.) It could not be said
that the result of the division was owing to the assistance
of either the Irish or Scotch meinb,rs, it was a majority
composed of all parties, E gust,, Irish, and Scotch.
(Hoar, hoar.) If the division list was r•forred to
it w.Juld he fcunil that 211 Eiglish meol'iurs vet I for t
proposition of the right hon. gontionrin the to enb.A- for
South Dineashiru, an 1 o ily 212 fir her Mejesty's
Government. (Hear.) There wore 37 Scotch members

for and only 13 against going into commlice, and with
rosrct to tht) Irish nt,co`)ers thcro w,re 51 agal,:t a7;11
only 4 in favour of the procrastinating policy of the
Government.
After a long discussion,

Mr. GLADSTONE roar', and after remarking on the ex-
traordinary reluctance of Mr. Disraeli to take part in the
debate, went on to point out that it. had turned upon ex-
traneous points, and that no one had attempted to defend
the Irish Church on its merits. But this was not surpris-
ing, for it never had and never could discharge the duty of
an Establishment—it never had been nor could be more
than the Church of a fraction. Reminding the house that
two policies had been submitted to it—one of procrastina-
tion, the other of immediate action—for neither side denied
that the present state of things was unendurable—he
pointed out that Mr. Disraeli's plan of joint endowment
had been repudiated by members of his own Cabinet and
by his followers. He declined distinctly to answer Mr.
Walpole's questions referring entirely to the details of a
measure which could only Tice brought in by the Executive
Government, and as he had not lightly undertaken the
task, and should not shrink from any responsibility in
connection with it, he would not peril a great public inte-
rest by stepping now beyond the province of a private
member. It was sufficient to say that the object of the
motion was to do an act of justice to Ireland. Comment-
ing on the charges of "conspiracy" he remarked that had
time permitted it would be easy to prove that the Church
party, which was represented to be plotting for this mea-
sure of disestablishment, was at the very moment work-
ing for Mr. Disraeli. But the supporters of the mo-
tion claimed to be in spontaneous alliance with the
party all over the world which was striving to
break down the system of religious ascendancy.
(dear.) Discussing the objections to the Resolutions,
he declared, with reference to the danger to the
Church of England, that there was no reasonable
ground for fearing it would be injuriously affected, for
to remove a bad establishment was not to weaken a good
one. As to the time there were three grounds for moving
in the question now. Pu'dic opinion had made a remark-
able advance ; the Government thernsolves had opened the
question of the religious condition of Ireland ; and the
third reason was the state of Ireland itself, where peace
was only secured by the exercise of the overwhelming
power of England. To the objection that disestablishment
would alienate tbo Protestants, he protested warmly against
the doctrine of exclusive loyalty, fed by exclusive privi-
leges, and applying the experience of our colonial admini-
stration, he predicted that a policy of equal justice would
develope the "British party" until it included every sane
asd intelligent man in Ireland. He criticised next, in
terms of stringent severity, Lord Derby's recent speech,
declaring, amid loud cheers, ;that he for one would not
consent to take the word of command from the House of
Lords, and concluded by urging the house, in an eloquent
peroration, to accept the resolution, not as a panacea, but
part of a policy which would add to the strength and glory
of the empire. _

Mr. DISRAELI, who made an unusually brief reply,
commenced by explaining that he bad not risen before
Mr. Gladstone because, the two previous speakers had
argued on his own side. He objected to disestablishment
—first, because it would be injurious to Ireland by re-
viving old animosities, and he remarked that hitherto no
ground of objection had been taken to the Church but the
abstract assertion that it was unjust to the people of Ire-
land. But he showed that it was not unjust to the whole
people, and, being only a partial injustice, it was not
susceptible of so easy a solution as total disendowtnent.
Besides, its abolition inight.be equally unjust to other por-
tions of her Majesty's subjects. Heobjected to it, too, be-
cause it interfered with the rights of property, and if this
was to be done on the allegation that the Church did not
fulfil the purposes for which it was created, the process
could not stop there. The property of some of the great
• Loudon companies, -which certarnly did not fulfil their
original duties, woull b) in danger. It was impossible yet
to predict what public op-niOn would be upon the ques-
tion ; but the idea of the Royal supremacy—our only se-
curity for religious I:l3lrty, and a great safeguard of our
civil rights - was deeply engrained in the public mind of
England, and it was upon such considerations as this, and
not on a few local abuses, that the question of an Esta-
bli,hed Church must be judged. Mr. Disraeli concluded
by explaining, in answer to some complaints made in the
course of the debate, that he had n used the word " Re-
mauist" i❑ an offensive sense, and vindicated his statement
as to the combination of Ritualists aud Roma,uists.
Sir F. HEYGATE having withdrawn his amendment,
the Committee divided on the first R.,solution, and the

numbers were--
For the Resolution
Against it ...

Majority against the Government, 65

The announcement of the numbers was received with,
loud cheers by the Opposition, and when it had died away
Ur. DISRAELI rose and said—The division having
altered the relations of the Government with the House,
it is necessary that we should consider cur position, and I
therefore move that the house at its rising adjourn until
Monday.

- The cheering was renewed at this statement, and, when
the other business on the paper had been disposed of, the
House adjourned at five minutes past 3 o'clock uat 1
Monday.