The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-16 00:00:00

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objected to the item of 1,574/. for sixteen Queen's
plates to be run for in Ireland. On this latter item
he should take the sense of the House. It was not
right that the people of Great Britain should be taxed
to encourage gambling and horse-racing. He pro-
posed that the vote should be reduced to 4,8901.
Sir P. TRENCH said the object of this vote was
not to encourage gambling, but to improve the breed
of horses —(Hear.)
Col. SIBTHORP said he quite concurred with his
Ilon. Friend who had just sat down. They might
call this gambling if they pleased, but where was there
a greater specimen of gambling than the railways of
this country ?—_(Laughter.) He thought the object
of this item was a fair and rational amusement. They
'night bet, if they pleased, in a church.—(Laughter.)
Er. HUME said the sole question was, out of
whose pockets money should come for these purposes.
lie had no objection to Hon. Gentlemen supporting
these amusements if they chose to do so, but he
thought this vote was wrong in principle.
Mr. MORE Q'FERRALL supported the vote.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
' Against it
Majority for the vote —V
20,4001. was then voted to pay the salaries and ex•
tenses of the office of Chief Secretary, the Queen's
'ueach, and her Majesty's Privy Council in Ireland.
0m41979i. was granted to defray the charges of the
Ireland. of the Paymaster of the Civil Services in
•
di
The sum of 6,27.5/. was then voted, after a brief
Public
t
Vsebtnrlion, to defray the expenses of the Board of
Works in Ireland.
roTe
snextecre vote was 39,2001. for the charges for
service.
Dr. 130 WRING thought it remarkable that the
years past. It had never varied. He suggested that
sum required for each department should be
ape,„eified.
~„,°ir C. NAPIER thought the last suggestion a
it'Alable one. As to the amount itself, he looked
s'llati it as exceedingly small, and only wondered how
the
• Government could gain their objects at so slight
Int expense.
)4r• AGLIONBY complained that the Govern-
-1116;14 took no notice whatever of the remarks which
irousfallen from Hon. Members on his side of the
lvSi I• GRAHAM observed there was not any
o„-, of
‘ attention en the part of Ministers when a
iceLal suggestion was thrown out. As to the vote
elfhe begged to say, that when he came into office
found a small balance of this fund had been left by
toll Predecessor and that balance still remained un-
nehed.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
a RUME said the money then must be ex-
pendedyy the Colonial and Foreign Departments.
Sir G. CLERK—And the Admiralty.
ISII.. O'FERRALL said there was a rumour
b very prevalent in Ireland that members of the consta-
7bulary force had been privately employed amongst the
ntry in Ireland to obtain information 011 behalf
ins Government, Government, and that they had gone in some
vtillences so far as to manufacture reports of crimes
Sir h had never been committed or even thought of.
•J• GRAHAM could assure the Hon. Gentle. -
viit.l that he was not cognizant of any one instance in
bealch a member of the police force in Ireland had
;11 thug employed.
eO4-dord ELIOT said he considered it his duty to
4firrn the statement made by his Right Ikon.
thelegd• Having heard of the rumour alluded to by
roe- s:1-00. Member for Kildare (Mr. O'Ferrall), the
ore rigid inquiries had been instituted by the
(L°er of the head of the Irish Government, and he
sahrd Eliot) could declare most emphatically that no
cued
had ever been entered on with the
perzanee of any officer of the police force. If any
kes°o whatsoever in the employment of the Govern-
he 14 should be discovered attempting such conduct,
visie„l,lld assure the House he would instantly be
'en with condign punishment.
• kiye u-r • WILLIAMS thought the Government should
, the House some more information as to the ex-
rTilture of this sum of money.
for r It• PEEL trusted the House would not press
,renistieh information which it would be most incon-
Ztonet t° give.—(Hear hear.) He could assure the
for se there had not been one shilling expended but
s4nteeessary he
ends, and that there was not t
hest ground for constitutional jealousy.
statioe next vote was 212,324/. for the expenses of
the onerY and printing in the several departmemts of
Was,-lovernment in England and Ireland. The vote
4agreed to after a short discussion.
printYl)te of 4,920/. was agreed to for the Queen's
111 g in Ireland.
diseu.9e of 30,000/. was agreed to, after a short
s's°°, to defray the law charges and salary of
olfcitor of the Treasury.
4,?•3Ylovte of 13,360/. was agreed to for loss in gold
i coin.
rvote of 150,000/. was then proposed for the par-
e:nof a .efraying certain charges that had hitherto
Iti Paid out of the county rate.
„ G
.nat --r.-NGER objected to the vote. He thought
judg:--`eT,
course ought to be adopted to prevent the
Judge er.eising the disagreeable duty of acting asd
already r Prosecutor. The learned judges had
subject rtrused to ad
°tight it 1,„,_ opt so unjustifiable a y
subject.
After some o eur° ae:i o the House to
Christie, Mr. A tonby,
Mr. Og: loodkutt-o, atnhde
fVoarn
thin ge
in
money,
th H. Peel, and Mr. Cripps,
.nssirfrom Sir J. Graham, Mr.
ought that there were seine the plan, Plan, and that the public had value
Mr. Ilpljasksi
had said that if the public could hear what
ust f:edt.hE:y
tatshould there be 7
e tnanner. oitutpdubhlaivee
pa strange opinion of
ouch justice was administered. Why
lwered
land
prosecutor ? It an-
the very well in Scotland • for if they compared
41- :4 with the
of criminals tried'and acquitted in Scot-
number tried and acquitted in England,
Zyci:ros;uld find that where one got off in Scotland
• eareles...'l escaped in England, in consequence of the
o,d,‘.
.manner in which the committals were
to The public had no right to be called on
at 74'7_ this money ; it began, he believed,
Nvn„ 2uoo/. er 80,0001., and now it was 150,000/. It
beis'te'l general taxation of the country, by which the
pa, reg•ulated parts of the kingdom were made to
ebjeect)those of which less care was taken. Another
aakiielPQ was, that the Government paid this money,
•diturelt had not the slightest control over the expen-
-1141,1, If it. -It might be said that this -was done
repeal the Act of Parliament; but the Act might be
nan,iten• The measure was one forced on the cot:1-
'l°4le ,Yloby the country gentlemen, to save themselves
vfo üble. If he had proposed any alteration that
q
tine
1;1/4'‘e entailed any trouble on them, lie should
lakili„ 'en told the practice had existed from time
they'wills!,i3tl, and could not be changed. But when
n(114 4
witt_q an alteration for their own convenience,
:these "ru was said about it. Let the expense
eatlenienProsecutions be thrown on th+ whoe country
Were creating hordes of paupers,
elf% eitlid filling
4gaols with criminals.
deposit PS did not think the manner in which
the e Ana were distributed likely to interfere
11„4,11Y ier,„ri's of justice. He did not believe that
04-`4(lefeed4nt persons were ever committed ; he
oftwith res rnany prisoners, but he scarcely knew
inneeePeet to whom he had any strong belief
Z'l3ll.o•ltielle'
114 tbe `LERTON said, whatever the practice
at at that it ch4ler parts of the country, he could
the man was by no means general. He had
he t,eighhouri3; quarter sessions in Manchester and
by u°ll.ght it c4xl, and the practice was not adopted ;
eatahich the ought to be discouraged. But one mode
gre a nul,?.°llnty rates might be reduced was to
co:"Y inece,sune Prosecutor. The county-rates were
off„ tnittinD, "sed by the number of magistrates' clerks
I,_;nee Persons charged with the most trifling 4taedat2 prosecution for a theft of an article ilk,a 1414,17 RA
would cost a county from 61. to
tho armed in pro ease in which an expense of 8/. was
qaurgh there ng a boy for stealing five apples,
joatieter. There
nothing else alleged against his
theees' eierk7re was a sort of' collusion between the
grZefre e
_* and the police, in order to obtain
,s._esornraittals, in which the clerk's fee was
•otl
205., or 21. He was convinced the
a' tills kias of the Majesty's rates arose from matters
tate 1- prosecutor
Pabl'e „ • If her
Government appointed
IsPayers,, , ft would be a great saving to the
0,, :tr. Payers,
hear.)
e';Le u-1,..!°-1-4t; thought the vote was a reasonable
1,1:01?loyed, of opinion that when counsel were
Nged it"_3rad of shortening the sessions, they
vefary iiiogi,_!never they were employed. —(Hear.)
rr strian said that the fines were no doubt
e iron Q the costs were large, but the fines
t a ently
e05t5......,y!ma11, in consequence of the amount
vo._ ktiear, hear.)
1,4 was then ared to.
igheittib -a7., of 18A 1
geevoted for the Deputy Re-
r-...eer of tho •
A Xcheour. e Exchequer, and other officers of
t, es ef
,0001.
8 -
11S .4
C'e 13
was voted to defray the ex-
sotors, coeutrtalaries of the officers of the Insolvent
orin the v,, •
I,ire. uses
ef.u,';_e of
.18,5861. for the payment of the
3,ll3risener's`le, P.rson in the Isle of Wight for juve-
g put,
110 ere.
...taIS objected to several of the items.
' were
Th_ 010. prisoners, who cost the country
41441 ,Prisoners, it appeared, did not make
0,1-,ull be the
sat head. He should like to know what
the 'sou ature of their business which produced
I)°%lng tn. He found there were expenses for
11.,tii.sbronernitllse
131.64 ing fires.. The expenses of the
Otto and In le
were still higher. In similar esta-
lolsou In the United States the labour of the
ht B,:rswlnvaitdball the expenses of the prison. He did
f Solitary
sYste "..at could not be effected in this country
ra 0 •
confinement had been found