The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-15 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 14

Their Lordships met at File o'clock.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Mr. GREENE and other Members brought up the
Factories and other Bills from the Commons.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE gave notice that,
on Friday, he should present a petition on the subject of
the Poor-laws in Ireland, and he should take that oppor-
tunity of asking the Government what progress had been
made by the Commission appointed to investigate the
state of poor-houses in Ireland.
Several petitions were presented praying the House
to legalise Presbyterian mixed marriages in Ireland..
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Edin-
burgh, in favour of the North British Railway.
Earl SOMERS presented petitions from occupiers and
owners of land in the city of Hereford and its vicinity ;
in the districts of Kingstoo ; town and vicinity of
Ledbury, county of Hereford ; parish of Mathan, county
of Worcester; parish of Bromsberrow, county of Glouces-
ter ; parish of Shelton, county of Hereford ; parish of
Canon Frome, ditto ; parish of Colwah, ditto ; parish
of Pultey, ditto ; parish of Little March, ditto ;
parish of Eggleton, ditto ; parish of Munsby, ditto ;
district of Packhold, ditto ; parish of Aylton, ditto ;
parish of Ashperton, ditto ; parish of Castle Frome,
ditto ; parish of Pixlly, ditto ; parish of Coddington,
ditto ; parish of Boslury, ditto ; all praying for the
same degree of agricultural protection as at present exists.
Lord COTTENHAM moved for returns of the num •
ber of persons who were eonfined in prisL at the pre-
sent time, distinguishing the duration of their impri-
sonment, the amount of their debts, and the sums ex,
pended in their support.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had not the
slightest objection to granting the returns moved for by
his Noble and Learned Friend.

In reply to a question from Lord CAMPBELL,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that in the mea-
sure respecting imprisonment for debt now before
their Lordships, the sum named in it for the support of
a class of prisoners amounted to exactly 300 shillings
a year, and not to 365, as he seemed to suppose.
Lord BROUGHAM moved for a return of the num-
ber of separations, a mensa et thoro, which had taken
iilace during the last ten years.
TjIE SPY SYSTEM IN IRELAND.
The Marquis of NORMANBY, in moving for the
production of the papers of which he had given notice,
would make a few observations on a topic which had
recently created a great sensation in Ireland. No one
could deny that that revolting and odious employment,
which was commonly called the spy system, was one
which met with the reprobation of all good men in every
country. In former periods the ramifications of that sys-
tem had spread through every quarter of the lower or-
ders of society in Ireland. Although they had not heard
of it during recent years, yet the recollection of it still
produced most disastrous effects upon the well-being of
society in many parts of Ireland. He would not allude
to its probable re-introduction, but it was a notorious fact
that the system existed at present to a greater extent
in Ireland than it had recently done. He would not al-
lude to any particular cases which might at present be
under investigation. The Skibereen case, he believed,
was at present under inquiry. It was notorious that the
system was extenling. He would allude to a pamphlet
which must be regarded as some sort of authority, as it
had been quoted by the Prime Minister in the other
House of Parliament—it was entitled " A Cryfrom Ire-
land," and there it was stated, that in the gaol
of Kilkenny, persons had been placed in the
same room with persons under criminal charges, for
the purpose of worming themselves into their
confidence, and obtaining confessions to be
given in evidence against them. The system extended
even to tampering with witnesses, and an affidavit of a
boy had been given, in which the deponent described the
process by which he had been led to recognise a party
as guilty of an offence, whom he had previously sworn
that he did not know. He took it for granted, as the
Prime Minister had quoted this pamphlet, that he
had directed inquiries to be made into these cases.
As a proof that this system was not necessary,
ho would refer to the evidence taken before their
Lordships' Committee in 1841, from which it ap-
peared that such a system was unnecessary to se-
cure the proper administration of justice in Ireland.
That evidence showed that between 1835 and 1839 there
was a greater proportion of committals to offences, and
of convictions to committals, than at any previous
period ; and in the entire of it he defied their Lordships
to show the use of such means as were now had recourse
to in Ireland. Though this was an evil, it was no reason
why individual injustice should be inflicted on any party
charged with participating in such offences. The Go-
vernment refused Mr. Grey any further investigation
into his case, and they said that all correspondence with
him must be closed. When those documents which he held
in his hand came into his possession, he thought it right
to submit his case to the House. He had no acquaint-
ance with Mr. Grey. When that gentleman arrived in
London he called on him (the Marquis of Normanby), but
he did not think it right to receive any information from
him of which the Government were not in possession. Mr.
Grey was one of those persons who were removed at the
accession of the present Government. When Mr. Grey
was employed in Kilkenny, and when it was rumoured
that he was removed, he received from the magis-
trates, in all parts of the country, testimonies
of regret at the prospect of his removal,
and a memorial had been presented to the Lord-Lieute-
nant by the High Sheriff, signed by persons of all
politics, praying that he might be allowed to remain.
Mr. rey laboured under the imputation of having
been the parent and originator of this odious system
which was now acquiring new force. Now, how did the
facts stand ? Two men were arrested in Thurles in
November, for hawking a seditious pamphlet or ballad,
the name of which was called the " Tories' downfal."
He (the Marquis of Normanby) never saw that ballad,
and, therefore, he was not aware whether it was objec-
tionable in execution or in its topic; nor did he know
whether it was one of those cases which were
described by the Noble and Learned Lord (Brougham)
last night, as " fond and fantastic prophecies."
was considered seditious by
Smith. It appeared that
arrested, Mr. Jennings
suggested that they should be tried at the quarter-ses-
si Mr. Grey consulted
themT hr e. bA a t
personstl
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yh.having
ie
nnge however,ra
Len
th
subject, and he said,
it was quite right to
oTeu
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aoTlrlhnauedyr
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iegdooi
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,n and;
commit the parties for trial; the only difficulty is whether
they ought not to be tried at the assizes, as we are not
quite certain that the jurors at the sessions would be
likely to do their duty. Now he (the Marquis of Nor-
manby) would not pause to comment upon the doubt
which was here thrown upon the jurors in petty sessions.
The Attorney-General's opinion having been obtained the
parties were committed for trial. Mr. Grey, not wishing
to strain the law so as to operate unnecessarily hard upon
the prisoners, again wrote to the Attorney-
General and stated that Osborn had expressed
his , readiness to give information respecting
the printer of the ballad, and he wished to
know whether, under these circumstances, the prisoner
could not be admitted as a witness against the printer
of the ballad, and the Attorney-General replied, " I
have no doubt that similar ballads may be purchased
from Moran, and therefore he can be prosecuted inde-
pendent of Osborn's evidence. I therefore see no reason
why Osborn should be discharged unless he can obtain
bail." It appeared that Falvey, a sub-constable,
went to the house of the printer with manuscripts in his
pocket, immediately after which Inspector Jennings took
them to Grey, and the printer was immediately appre-
hended. Now, Mr. Grey distinctly denied that he
gave any instruction upon this subject. The Noble
Marquis then read a statement detailing the circum-
stances attendant upon the arrest, and recommending Fal-
vey to the consideration of the Government as an active
and efficient officer ; also a report from the sub- inspector
to the Government to the same effect. This was
altogether a most extraordinary case, for con-
stable Falvey fully bore out the assertion of
Mr. Grey, with respect to not having issued
any instruction to Falvey, yet Mr. Grey was dismissed,
while Falvey was retained in the constabulary. What
had Falvey said when he was asked what did he imagine
would have been his duty if no ballads had been printed?
His answer was, he supposed he should have to get
them printed, but he had received no instructions. Now
the Government had received these reports on the 30th
of November, and if the Government had not interfered,
the sellers of the ballads would have been prosecuted.
Now, it appeared that Mr. Grey was anxious that these
parties should not remain in gaol, and he
applied to the Government to forward the pro-
secutions. He applied to have Osborn discharged,
and to be permitted to avail himself of Osborn's evi-
dence against the other parties. No, said Mr. Brewster,
there would be no necessity for that if proper means
were taken. Now, what were those proper means ?
Why, evidently it was meant to send a policeman in
disguise, they could hardly send him in uniform, to procure
these ballads. Now, the Government knew as much
about this case on the 30th Nov. as they did at the
present moment. They had received both the reports,
and had had an opportunity of comparing them. These
papers were not returned by Mr. Brewster until December
12th, when they were returned by him to Mr. Grey
This did not rest on his testimony alone. Reports were
transmitted from day to day by the Inspector-General
to the Chief Secretary, and the most important were
selected by the Chief Secretary, and brought under
the notice of the Lord-Lieutenant. Directions were given
on those reports, which were sent to the constabulary.
If blame rested any where, it must be with the Under-
Secretary, for he was aware that the Inspector-General
was most punctual in sending reports to the Castle.—
(Hear, hear.) The fact of the printing of the ballad
was known to the Government on the 12th of
November. He did not think there could be the least
doubt of that.---(Hear, hear.) It did not rest
on the silence of the parties, for on the 12th of December
Mr. Brewster returned them to Mr. Grey, saying that
no further directions seemed necessary in the case. What
interpretation was Mr. Grey to put on this but that the
previous directions had been adopted. From the
time that those unfortunate men had been
in gaol, till they had been discharged, from the Go-
vernment refusing to prosecute them, which was four
months, Mr. Grey had no reason to suppose that he had
not fulfilled the instructions he had received. It was
not till the matter became notorious to the public any
steps were taken. and he thought that Mr. Grey and
the Irish people had reason to complain that the inten-
tions of the Government were not clearly expressed
before the matter had become so public and notorious.
He apprehended that it was but just to Mr. Grey that a I
full explanation of the circumstances under which his
dismissal took place should be laid before the public ;
and with this view he had brought the subject under the
notice of their Lordships.
Lord WHARNCLJFFE thought lie would be enabled
to show that no blame was to be attributed to the Go-
vernment with respect to this matter. The circumstances
of this case undoubtedly had been detailed with great