The Sun.
London, England, 1844-01-24 00:00:00

is called a member's card.—Yes, it is. I saw similar cards to
this before.
Mr. Freeman (repeating the answer)—He saw similar cards
to that before.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—The answer was heard all over the Coust.
I r« quest you will not repeat the answers.
Mr. Freeman—What sort of card is this? (The large card
handed witness. )—lt is a member's card.
Mr. Freeman (repeating the answer)—lt is a member's
card.

Mr. Fitzgibbon—l tell you we all heard the answer. You
must not repeat his answers.
Mr. Freeman—Oh, its not important.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Then that's an additional reason why
you shall not repeat his replies. I submit, my Lord, that
Mr. Freeman is wit to echo the answers of this witness.
Mr. Freeman—l hope you have no cold.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Don't mind my cold—don't repeat the
answers.
Mr. Freeman—Very well.
Witness, in continuation—l see this card. It is printed in
the same manner as the others. It was originally, engraved
on steel, and then the impression was transferred to stone.
The colouring was a second printing. I got that colour. I
put it on (but I don't know how to express it rightly). I put
it on the stone to enable the printer to print from it. It wa3
done for Holbrooke in the same place as the others. There
was a great quantity of these cards struck off. The colour I
put on the stone was blank. The printers put on the green
colour which is on the card by direction of Holbrooke. I saw
the design of the card, which was partly designed by myself.
I designed the decorations on the flags. They are shamrocks
and sun-bursts. Holbrooke brought me a rough sketch of
the card. There was no person with him when he brought
me the sketch. Mr. O'Callaghan used to come up while I
was working on the cards. His Christian name is John Cor-
nelius O'Callaghan. I heard that from Mr. Holbrooke. He
told me so.
Mr. M'Donough—Don't mind what he told you; it is not
evidence.
3lr. Freeman—Do you know Mr. Ray?—Yes, I do (he
identified Mr. Ray); I saw him at Holbrooke's; I don't re-
member if he was at Holbrooke's with Mr. O'Callagham. I
heard Mr. Ray speak about the cards. He inspected and
looked over them while they were in progress. He suggested
improvements in the cards. There were improvements made
at his suggestion in the form of the cards. I don't recollect
any alterations being made in the members' cards, in accord-
ance with the suggestions of Mr. Ray.
Look at that card—what is it ?—That is a Volunteer's card.
Were there any alterations suggested in it by Mr. Ray ?
Ye:, the improvement in the likeness of Mr. O'Connell.
Look at the letters 'l'. M. Ray. Do sou know who litho-
graphed them ?—Mr. Gardiner engraved the fac-simile from
Mr. Ray's hand-writing.
Did you ever see Mr. Ray write ? Yes, I saw him write a
little on the edge of the stone.
Can you form an opinion of Mr. Ray's handwriting
cannot.
Did you see Mr. Ray after the words were lithographed ?
If the green cards were done before the black ones, I did.
Mr. 31‘13onough —The black were done first.
Chief Justice—l understood you to say " as."
Witness—l said " if."
Mr. Henn—Having now taxed your memory can you swear
positively whether you saw him before or after the words were
lithographed ?
I saw Mr. Ray after. I did not see him inspecting the
cards after the words T. M. Ray were written. The im-
provements in O'Connell's likeness were in the green card. I
made the sketch of Mr. O'Connell myself. I had something
to do with the Volunteer card. I see the likenesses in it.
That in the head is Mr. O'Connell's. The one next the Court
is Flood's. I sketched it from a painting in the College. Mr.
Davis brought me there- The next is the likeness of Owen
Roe O'Neill. I copied it partly from a manuscript, and from
one of the old engravings of the O'Neills. It was brought to
me by Mr. Holbrooke and Mr. O'Callaghan's brother. I saw
Mr. Davis at Mr. Holbrooke's when original sketches were
given. Mr. Davis saw the originals. The next likeness on
the same side is Brian Boroihme. I copied it from the
frontispiece to " Keatinge's History of Ireland." It
was brought to me by Mr. Holbrooke. I cannot say whether
any was present at the time or not. The next is 011 am
Feuhla. I got the original of that in my imagination. The
idea of introducing it was suggested by Mr. Holbrooke. Mr.
O'Callaghan, Mr. Holbrooke, and Mr. Davis discussed the
designs on the card in my presence. I don't knot. that Mr.
Ray was present; the next likeness is one of Sarsfield. I
copied it from an old French engraving, which 1 get from Mr.
Geraghty. the beekseller. Mr. Holbrooke brought him to me.
Mr. Holbrooke suggested the ir.troduction of Sarsfield. 1
cannot say that Mr. Ray did. 'the next likeness is one of
Hugh O'Neill. It was drawn by me. I almost forget from
what 1 copied it. I think I composed it myself. The next
likeness is of Dathy. I have been in the Association. I have
seen Mr. Ray there.
Mr. Freeman—Had you any conversation with him there
about the alterations?
Chief Justice—He has already said that suggestions were
given him by Mr. Ray.
Witness—Not at the Association, but, as I said before, he
made suggestions. I cannot charge my memory with the
exact words he said.
Mr. Freeman—Look at the harp and shield. Were there
any alterations suggested there ?—Not in this card (the black
one), but on the other. There were not many of these cards
lithographed, for they separated by over-etching. An attempt
was made to repair them. Ido not recollect which of the As-
sociation cards was first given. Recollects the time of design-
ing the Volunteer card. It was about the beginning of 1643.
The members' and the associates' card was about the sarno
time. The Volunteer card was engraved somewhat later.
That was about March. Holds in his band the Repeal War-
dens' diploma. It was designed by the witness from materials
furnished by Mr. Holbrooke. The design commenced before
the beginning of 1843. It was not completed until atter the
beginning of that year. It was completed before the Volun-
teer card. During the design witness saw Mr. Ray. Will
not undertake to say he heard any observations from Mr. Ray
with respect to the diploma. While it was in progress of en-
graving Mr. Holbrooke brought several gentlemen to see it.
—Mr. Davis, Mr. O'Callaghan, and Mr. Ray. Knows Mr.
Steele. He used to come and see the cards. Cannot charge
his memory which of them. No one accompanied him. On
the occasions of his visits he principally directed his conversa-
tion to Mr. Holbrooke. Witness heard it. It was quite irre-
levant to the diploma.
Mr. M'Donough--If so, say nothing about it.
Mr. Freeman—lt might be relevant to something else.
Witness knows Mr. Duffy, of the Nation. Saw him in com-
pany with Mr. Davis at Mr. Holbrooke's. Does not recollect
seeing him with any one else. Saw them in the studio. Mr.
Duffy sat in a chair, and looked at the work in progress. Does
not recollect him making any observations. The time Mr.
Steele came alone was about the middle of March, as witn,ess
best recollects. Mr. Duffy rose up several times. Witness
sketched Mr. O'Connell's head on the Volunteer card at the
Repeal Association. This was .of Mr. Daniel O'Connell,
This was when the Repeal Volunteer Card was in progress.
Saw Mr. John O'Connell. He was at the Repeal Association,
near the table at which the Chairman sits. Did not see Mr.
Ray there. Had seen him before. - Thinks he saw Mr.
('Connell and Mr. Ray together. Could not say if Mr. John
O'Connell was with them. Was at the Repeal Association
very rarely except on business. His business was sketching.
Went five or six times on business. Don't remember seeing
Mr. Duffy there. Did not see Dr. Gray there. Thinks he
would know him if he saw him.
Mr. Freeman—That young gentlemen there?
Witness—Recollects alterations suggested in the diploma.
There was an alteration in the harp suggested by Mr. Ray,
and in the cap of the chief by Mr. O'Callaghan. When the
witness went to the Repeal Association to sketch, he was ac-
companied by Mr. Holbrooke, Won't undertake to swear Mr.
Holbrooke was a member. The alteration pointed out in the
harp by Mr. Ray was in the formation of the top and strings.
It was originally an English harp, not an Irish one.. The she-
ration in the cap was, that he (witness) put a spike in it like a
Chinese cap; this was not correct. Mr. O'Callaghan said so.
Mr. M'Donough—This is not evidence.
Witness had nothing to do with striking off the diploma;
caunot say if many were struck off; a great number of the
Associate cards were. When the cards were struck off they
were sent to the Repeal Association. I know two persons
of the name of Tom and Joseph Annesley. They printed the
cards. When the cards were struck off they were to:ten out by
boys in the service of Mr. Holbrooke. I was enrolled a member
of the Association. It was 'cithout my consent. I was handed
a card by Mr. Holbrooke.
Mr. M'Donough—That is not evidence.
To Mr. Freeman—l took a sketch of Mr. John O'Connell.
I believe it was in the committee.room of the Association. I
was there once besides to take a sketch of Mr. O'Connell's bust.
Mr. M'Donough—l do not see what that has to do with the
case

To Mr. Freeman—l were paid.—(Laughter). I was paid.—
(Continued laughter). I was paid by Mr. Holbrooke,
Cross-examined by Mr. M‘Donough—l have been long
practising as an artist.
I presume your studio was open to the public?—lt was.
I dare say that clever, gentleman, Mr. Stuart Blacker, was
there ?-1 do not remember I had that clever gentleman there.
You think him a clever gentleman, then ?—What I have
seen of him I think he is.
You have seen many of the legal artists around there?—
(Laughter.) You have seen Mr. Tomb there?—(Laughter.)
—There were many great persons there. They inspected my
performances. Ido not know if they admired them.
Mr. 1114Donough—I presume if any of us went to inspect
your likeness of 011 am Fodhlam, or Dathy, you would show
it ?—Yes.
Do you know them ?—(Laughter. )—I had not the pleasure
of their acquaintance.—(Laughter.) I believe they are long
known to the Irish pecple.—( Great laughter.)
Mr. M'l)onough-1 suppose it is only in your imagination
they exiqted.—l believe so.
Mr. Justice Crampton—Mr. Freeman passed him over.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. Freeman—l did not know him.
To Mr. M.Donough—The public had admission to where
these portraits were. I was in the employment of Mr. Hol-
brooke since my arrival in this country. 1 left it last August.
I know that Holbrooke was engaged for the Board of Works.
He was engaged to do Government business. I believe Mr.
Holbrooke was engaged by the Government when I came to
this country. I know he was subsequently engaged by the
Government. I believe Mr. Holbrooke was very well known
as being engaged by the Government. It was advertised on
his glass that he was lithographer to the Queen. It was visible
to the whole world. He was employed at the same time for
the Repeal Association and the Government. Ido the print-
ing business for the Queen. The printing presses were going
for the Government, at the same time that I was printing
011 am Fodhlam.
Mr. M'Donough—Look at the green ticket. Did you design
it from your own imagination ?—Partly.
Look a the " Sun-burst," and say if it is the result of your
own fancy exclusively ?=lt is partly mine, and partly Mr.
Holbrocke s. lam a loyal subject of her Majesty.
Mr. M‘Donough—You would not engrave and thing injurious
to her Majesty ?—Nct knowingly.
Did you go to the Dining-room, or Examination Hall, to take
a likeness of Flood ?—I did.

In taking a likeness of Flood, in the Examination or Dining
Hall, you did not think you Were doing an} thing inconsistent
with your duty as a loyal subject 2-10.
Have you any idea of whom Flood was ?—Yes, he was the
contemporary br Grattan.
You saw; I think, Mr. Steele at Holbrooke's once and once
only?—Yes; I am not, hOwever, aware whether or not it was
on business wholly irrelevant to the present inquiry or to those
cards. I am riot aware whether he cr.me there about arranging
a lithograph dravving to be placed at the title;page of some book
of his. 1 remember to have seen Dr. Gray -there. I remem-
ber his looking over the premises, but I know not whether he'
came to visit certain machinery. He viewed the premises, and
that is all I iemernbec about his visit. I am unacquainted with
Mr. Barrett. I never saw him that I remember. My inter-
view with Mr. J. O'Connell had reference only to taking his
likeness. I have not seen Mr. Holbrooke since my return to
Dublin. Came here from London on Wednesday
evening.
to that time I was in London since August last. I believe Mr.
Holbrooke to be in Dublin at present. I went to London to
carry on my profession.
Isaac Gardiner examined by Mr. Martley—l am a writing..
engraver.
What countryman are you?—l am an Englishman. I came
to this country last January., I was in the emplo3ment of Mr:
-Holbititikicas 1n engraver, for nearly 'fear' snruntic front tha
middle of February to the end of June, 1843. It is not my bu-
sinetts to draw letters on stone.
Here cards of the Association were handed to the witness.
The Associates' card, which is a small one ; the Members'

card, somewhat larger ; and the Volunteers' card, the largest
of the three.
Do you know anything about those cards ?—I engraved the
lettering upon those (the Members' and Associates' cards)
somewhere about March last ; I engraved the plate for the
Members' card first ; when it was brought to me it had the
banners upon it. My work upon the plate was the last that
was done upon it. Mr. Holbrookegave it me to do. I e
know Mr. Ray, nor (looking rdtind to identify the traversers,
any of the traversers. Engraved the small cord. The name
" Ray" engraved upon it is supposed to be a fae simile of his
autograph. (Handed the Volunteers' card.) I designed the
writing of that card. I cannot say who engraved it. I en-
graved the Members' card first, then the Associates', and next
the diploma (the Repeal Wardens). I executed the writing
on the centre of this diploma. I see a stamp on the Members'
card. It was not engrossed when these cards were originally
printed. I cannot say what quantity of them were struck off.
[Here a coloured and uncoloured members' card were handed
to the witness, and he identified the uncoloured card as a mem-
ber's card, and stated he had no share in arranging the process
for producing the colour.]
Cross-examined by Mr. Moore—When did you first come to
Ireland ?—ln February of last year.
Did you, on coming to Ireland, immediately enter the em-
plo3ment of Mr. tioldbrooke ?—I did.
Mr. Alartley requested to be allowed to ask one other ques-
tion of the witness. Were any persons named Hennessy and
Annesley in Mr. Holbrooke's employment ? Yes.
Did you see them take away any portion of the documents
printed ?—I did not.
Cross-examination by Mr. Moore resumed—Mr. Holbrooke
had a considerable deal of business, had he not?—He had.
He worked for every one who employed him, I believe?—He
did.

Among the rest, for the Government ?—He did.
You know that ?—I do.
How many persons were in his employment during the time
'you were there P—Four, in the printing and engraving. •
Did you say that you received your directions from Mr.
Holbrooke in the ordinary course of business?—.l did.
And yotr executed his directions according to the ordinary
course of business?—l did.
And everything was perfectly open—there was no conceal-
ment ?—None whatever.
The designing of these cards was as public as if they had
been designed for the Government ?—Yes.
•
That will do.
John Annesley sworn, and examined by Mr. Smiley—Do you
follow the business of a printer?—Yes.
Have you been in the employment of Mr. Holbrooke ?
I Lave.

Look at the documents. Did you print any of these ?—I
will not swear.
Have you printed any similar to them ?—Yes.
Were they printed in green colour?—They were.
Who put the colour on ?—I did.
Have you ever taken any of these cards for Mr. Holbrook°
to any place did once to the Corn Exchange ; they were
small cards.
Who did you deliver them to ?—I c3nnot say.
Had Sou any parcel-book with you ?—Yes.
When you delivered the cards was any receipt given for them ?
—Yes, some initials were signed in the parcel-book.
Look at the documents (handing some papers to witness).
About what number of them were printed off?—l cannot give
a guess.
Were there several thousands of them ?
them..

'—Yes, thousands o

Look at that document (handing witness a form of an arbi-
tration award) ; was that stamp on it when it was
printed ?—No.
Do you know where the paper came from do not.
Hare you (handing in the documents) printed such papers as
those?— Yes.
What arc they ?—Deeds of submission to an award of arbi-
trators.

Were many of them done ?—There were a good number.
Did you ever carry any of these papers to the Association ?
No, I did not.
Cross-examined by Mr. Close—How long had you been in
the emplo)nient of Air. Holbri oke?—About 11 years.
Have you been a lithographer during part of that period ?
—Yes.
Where is the original copy of that document ?—I don't know.
How long is it since ou saw it ?—I could not say.
Have you seen that stamp affixed to other matters which
were printed by Mr. Holbrooka—No.
Have you printed matters for the Government for Mr. Hol-
brooke?—l have.
How long—for the last nine years ?—Yes.
During the whole of that period ?—Yes.
Have you never seen that stamp affixed to papers printed for
the Government ?—I have not.
When did you first see that stamp cannot say.
Will you venture to say that you did not see it five years
ago ?—Yes.
Six years ago?—Yes.
Will you swear that you did not see it three years ago ?—No.
Chief Justice—ls it the die you are speaking 01?
Mr. Close—The die, my Lord:
You will not swear that you raw it as long ago as two years?
—No.

Does anything enable you to fix the time
Will you venture to say that you did not see it before the
year 1843?-1 will not.
How long is it since you say these papers were printed—
within the last three or tour months ?—About that time.
Upon your oath did you not see that die and stamp before
that ?—I have never seen it.
Did you ever see it affixed to any other paper ?—No.
To none whatever ?—Not to my knowledge.
Will you swear that you have not ?—I will.
I,slah Ansesley sworn, and examined bvMr.Baker—l know
Mr. Holbrooke, the engraver. I have been in his employ-
ment for a year and six months, in the capacity of printer. I
have assisted in }minting cards of that description (meaning the
Associates' cards).
Look to the other cards, and tell me have you ever assisted
in printing those ?—No, Sir.
Have you seen such cards ?—I have, Sir.
Have you ever carried parcels of such cards from Mr. Hol-
brooke to any place ?—I have.
Were they made up in parcels?—Yes.
Do you know how many each parcel contained ?—I do not.
Where did you bring them to ?—I brought them to the Corn
Exchange.
Where did you leave them?—l left them in the top of the
house. I don't know in whose office it was I left them. I
delivered them to two of the clerks. I dun% know their

names.
Do you know a person of the name of Quigiy ?—I have
heard tell of him.
Have you ever seen him ?—Yes, I have seen him at the
Corn Exchange, and have given some of those cards to him.
Do you know Mr. Ray ?—I do not. I do not even know
his appearance.
Look to the other documents and tell me have you carried
any of them to the Corn Exchange ?-- I might in parcels. I
never assisted in making them up in parcels.
(The Volunteer and Members' cards were here handed up
to witness). l have seen such cards as those taken out of
Mr. Holbrooke's to the Corn Excharge.—(The Reveal War-
den's diploma was here handed to witness). 1 have seen such
documents as that taken out of Mr. Holbrooke's and delivered
at the Corn Exchange.
Cross-examined by Mr. Alexander M'Carthy —lt was no
part of my duty to make up the parcels. I may have made up
small parcels.
Were you in the habit of delivering small parcels at other
places ?--No, Sir, not many.
Occasionally ?—Yes.
Those parcels you did not make up either ?—No.
Then you' were told to take out parcels, and } ou took them?
—Yes.

Covered with brown paper ?—Yes.
Is Mr. Holbrooke in town at present ?—He is.
Are you still in the employment of Mr. Holbrooke ?—Yes.
The Attorney-General desired the Deputy Clerk of the
Crown to read the Associates, Members, and Volunteers'
Cards.
The Deputy Clerk of the Crown then read the cards. The
Members' card was numbered 31,006; the Volunteers' card,
and the Repeal Wardens' card, had the name " George J.
Green" upon it.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Go back to the members' card, and read
the words upon the leaves of the shamrock. You bare omitted
them.

Deputy Clerk of the Crown—The words are, Catholic,
Protestant, and Dissenter.
Attorney. General—Now read the arbitration award and
deed of submission.
The. Deputy Clerk of the Crown was about reading thole
documents, when—
Mr. Fitzgibbon said—My Lord, on these documents there is
a stamp, and you will recollect that it has not been proved that'
any document having a stamp was ever received at the
Association, or by any member of it. How those documents
came into the possession of the Crow n we know not ; but this
we know, that it has not been proved that such documents
were delivered to the Association, and they clearly cannot put
such documents in evidence.
Chief Justice—l don't understand your objection.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—lt is this : they seek to give in evidence
copies of a printed document, and to make them evidence
against the Association, by showing that copies of that docu-
ment—with some impression upon them about which we know
nothing—were delivered to the Association from the same
types. They endeavour to put in evidence a copy which has
something upon it that was never on any paper delivered to
the Association, or recognised by its members. They seek to
put in a paper which has something upon it which, for aught
we know, may have been fabricated by themselves, the mean-
ing of which we cannitt tell--and which, for anything we know,
would be made the subject of observations that it is utterly im-
possible for us to anticipate. We do not understand that
stamp, or whatever othi r device it is ; we do not know the
meaning of it at all. How is it possible that such a paper as
that could be read in evidence against us?
Chief Justice—They don't read it against you.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—l object to their reading any part of that
paper at all, unless they show that we were in some way con-
nected with the device which is upon it. Let them cut it off ;
but I object to such paper going to the jury.
Mr. O'Connell (to the Solicitor-General)—That stamp will
suit you for stamping the arms. If you apply to Mr. Holbrooke
he will let you have it.
Chief Justice—lt is not going to be read. The document,
so far as what is printed on it, has been proved.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—With great respect, I beg pardon, it has
not by any means. That particular document has not been
proved.
Chief Justice—l did not say any such thing; but what Isaid
was, that what was printed upon it was proved.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—What is printed on it may have been shown
to be printed upon a thousand papers delivered by the Asso-
ciation ; but that would not make the document, as it is now
before the Court, admissible in evidence.
Judge Perrin—That stamp, or whatever is its character,
cannot affect the meaning or import of the rest.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—They will be entit:ed by and by to send it
to the jury if it is now read.
Judge Perrin—But without your consent they may be read
now, but the jury cannot get the document unless you consent.
Mr. Fitzgibbon—Well, suliject to that, of course we may
go on.

- Solicitor-General—Oh, we don't lay any stress upon if.
The next witness for the Crown then came upon the table.
He gave his name as John Thick M‘Namara, and was sworn
and examined by Mr. Tomb-1 am a short-hand writer. I
attended 'g meeting that took place at Tullamore on
the 16th'of July last. I arrived there the evening before.
The meeting commenced some , time before two o'clock.
I saw a great many people there. As far as I' saw they
came there the same way as they would come to town
on any other occasion—say on a market day. There
were great crowds at that• meeting. I took notes of what
passed there, shorthand notes. I transcribed these notes after,
with the exception of some few sentences. My short-hand
notes have been destroyed. I have the transcript here. I
know two 'of the traversers, Mr. Daniel O'Connell and Mr.
Steele. I saw them there. The Rev. Dr. O'Rafferty was
chairman of that meeting.
Mr. Hatchell—Do you mean to say that your transcript of
the speeches, or whatever it was, is a correct and verbatim
translation of what was on your notes ?—Yes, with the excep-
tion I stated. I took notes of some few sentences, which, .in
transcribing, I omitted.
• Mr. Ilatehell---Then your short-hand notes would show
certain portions of -a -speocla tak.rt tioiatrik-but.got. transcribed ?
--Yes.
llatchell—l; 'any portion of that which• you4call the
transcript of your short-band notes supplied from your memory ?