The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-10 00:00:00

RATING STOCK IN TRADE

WODETIOUSE wished to know if it was the
intention of the Government to introduce a Bill for an
alt.eration of the present system. of rating stock in trade?
Sir G. GREY said that there was a Con:mitt°
sitting in the 1-fosse of Lords on the.suhject, and when
they made their report woutd be the time to consider
what course should to pursued.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES BILL.

In answer to a questiln from an HON. MEDIBER,
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was his intention to re•
print this Bill with the Lords' amendments.
DEATH OF THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE.
ADDRESS OF CONDOLENCE.

Lord J. RUSSELL said—before the regular busine3s of
the House was proceeded with, he considered it his
duty, in consequence of the lamented death of
the Duke of Cambridge, to move an humble
address of condolence to her Majesty. The Noble
Lord, etcr reAsing a high eulogium upon the late Duke,
moved the address.

The Marquis of GRANBY seconded the address,
which was unanimously agreed to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then moved an address of
condolence to the Duchess of Cambridge.
Mr. DISRAELI seconded the motion in a most feeling
speech.

The address waa unlnimotisly agreed to.
NATIONAL REPRESENTATION.

Mr. LOCKE KING then rose to move for leave
to bring in a all to make the franchise in coun-
ties in England and Wales the same as that in boroughs,
by giving the right of voting to all occupiers of tene-
ments of the annual value of 101. He asked, he said,
for no great measure of reform. Ile merely wished to
do away with an existing anomaly. Ile would take
the borough of Reigate, in Surrey, and ask why should
a 10/ householder of that borough have a hundred and
ninety-eighth share—for there were only 198 electors—
in sending a !Member to that House, whilst a person
living in a larger and better house at Croydon, and pay-
ing something short of 501. a year, was not allowed to
have a six-thousandth share in returning a Member for
East Surrey.—(Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a list
of twenty-two boroughs which sent forty-two Members
to the House of Commons, and in none of which did the
number of electors exceed 400. The aggregate of elec-
tors to those boroughs was 6.885, or, upon an average,
163 electors to each Member; whilst in the Wes'
Riding of Yorkshire 36,000 electors were represented by
only two Members in that House. He thought, then,
that as a matter of justice the county constituencies
should, at least, ba put upon the same footing with
the borough constituencies. If they were deter-
mined to keep the great body of the people
outside the pale of the constitution, surely it would
have been better to have continued the old rotten
borough system, with its avowed oligarchical, aristo-
cratical domination. The inequalities which existed in
the Parliamentary representation of this country were
shocking alike to common sense and common justice.
The measure which he now proposed would remove one
great anomaly, and palliate the sense of injustice which
was created in the minds of tens of tbousande of persons
who were qnite as fit to eejoy the franchise as those
upon whom it was conferred by the Reform -Bill. His
proposition would also test the sincerity of Hon. Gen
tlernen opposite who still clung to protection, and did
not hesitate to assert that the great body of the people
were in favour of a bread-t ix. It would give them the
means of trying that question, and trying it with an
extended suffrage- in those very districts where they
said the greatest amount of distress prevailed. For his
part, he was quite ready to put that question to the
great body of the people, the consumers of articles
which, formerly taxed, were now duty free; and he had
no doubt if that question were put, the verdict of the
people would be one by which the important que;tion of
plenty and prosperity, with the assistance of truth and
Justice, would be permanently, and be hoped for ever
established. In conclusion, the lion. Gentleman moved
for leave to bring in a Bill " to make the franchise in
counties in England and Wales the same as that in
boroughs, by giving the right of voting to all occupiers
of tenements of the annual value of 101."
Mr. lIUME seconded the motion. The Hon. Gentleman
said that the Noble Lord at the head of the Government had
declared that he was willing to go in the path of reform,
but he had never yet stated to what extent he would go.-:-
( Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord was really favourable to
progress, in what way, he asked, could progress be made
with less risk and less danger than that proposed by the
Hon. Member for East Surrey? The Hon: Member simply
proposed that, whereas 101. householders were now allowed to
vote in boroughs, the same privilege should be extended to
householders of that amount in counties—and he ( Mr.
Hume) regarded it as an act of justice to give them this pri-
vilege. Ile hoped the Hon. and Gallant Member for West-
minster (Sir De Lacy Evans) would postpone the amend •
ment of which he had given notice, and all ,w the decision of
the House to be taken upon the motion of the Hon. Member
for Surrey.
Sir DE LACY EVANS said that if his amendment should
be thought to interfere, upon a division, with the motion of
the lion. Member for East Surrey, he would at once comply
with the wish of the Hon. Member for Montrose. At the
same time he would beg leave to make a few observations in
support of his amendment, after which he should be guided
by the opinions of his lion. Friends near him. The propo-
sition he had to make went considerably further than that of
the Hon. Member for Surrey, though in his opinion it did not
go by any means far enough. He concurred with Mr. Hume
in thinking that there was no ground fur alarm in an ex-
tension of the franchise to registered household suffrage.
It would be in the recollection of the House that the Re-
form Bill was not accepted by the Reform party in the
country as a settlement of the question, but only as a com-
pr anise, to prevent the disturbance of peace and tran-
quillity. It was taken simply as an instalment. But
even if it were an adequate measure of reform at that
time, it would not be a sufficient franchise now, for the
twenty years which had elapsed since that period had.
witnessed a greater advance in population and in intellectual
and moral improvement in all classes, and in the humble
class particularly, than had ever before taken place within
a similar period in this country. The amendment of which
he had given notice contained three propositions. He pro-
posed to " render the payment of any income or property-
tax a qualification to vote for Members of Parliament for
the county or borough in which such payment shall have
been made, provided that no person shall be so entitled un-
less he shall have been resident for the space of twelve
months preceding wi•hin the said county or borough, and
shall have been duly registered ; also, to render the pay-
ment of poor-rate as occupier of any premises rated as of
the net annual value of Si. or upwards a qualification to
vote for Members of Parliament for the county or bo-
rough within which such premises are situated, provided
the person paying such rate shall have occupied such
premises for twelve months preceding, and have
been duly registered; also, to render deposits in savings
banks of a certain amount a qualification to vote for Mem-
bers of Parliament, with the provision of twelve months'
preceding residence, and of registration ; and of twelve
months' preceding duration of such deposits." He consi-
dered it an unsafe state of things which at present existed in
this country, with their legidation not in accordance with
the spirit of the age, and a majority in the House of
Lords opposed to a reform Government. Even that House
(the Commons) was too aristocratic to fairly represent the
feelings and opinions of the people at large. As an instance
of the working of the system, he might mention that the late
Mr. Robins on one occasion, when advertising a fine estate
that he had for sale, recounted, amongst its other advantages,
that its owner enjoyed political influence over 1,200 indepen-
dent voters. With respect to the amendment of which he
had given notice, he wished to know from the Speaker
whether, if he moved it, it would prevent a division being
taken on the original motion—a result which he had certainly
no desire to of ?

The SPEAKER said that would depend entirely on
whichever the Ilcuse would adopt, whether the amendment
or the motion. •

Sir DE LACY EVANS was afraid that the House would
not adopt the amendment, and he begged therefore to with-
draw it.

The amendment was accordingly withdrawn,
Mr. ALCOCK pointed out the great hardship inflicted by
the present electoral system on respectable inhabitants of
towns, who in consequence of dwelling in houses under 501.
a year rent, could not vote for the county. Such a state of
things ought no longer to be allowed to exist.
Mr. G. THOMPSON said it would be easy to show, from
evidence accumulated since the Reform Bill, that of all the
electoral systemi in the world that of this country was the
most unequal and , absurd. The great majority of the bo-
roughs having small constituencies sent Members to Par-
liament, whose elections were not contested, because those
boroughs were the property of rich commoners or peers,
whose nominees they were to all intents and purposes.
While such a state of things existed there was not a Minister
sitting on the Treasury bench in that House who was really
responsible to the country; for when Ministers represent-
ing large constituencies were rejected by them, they did not
lose their office, but went to some pocket borough to be re-
turned to that House—ejected from Westminster they
went to Harwich, and they were no more responsible to
the public at large than if they had returned themselves to
the House, and walked through those doors by hereditary
right. In the list of boroughs, be found that the fifty largest
did not return more members than seventy-one of the
smallest, though they contained seven times more electors,
more than Fix times the number of the population, and
seven times the number of houses rated to the relief of the
poor. The result of the system was, that there were voting
in that House, and voting upon all the most vital interests of
the country, 82 Members representing 58 bo.oughs, whose
united constituencies amounted to only 19,282 voters, or 63
less than the number of voters registered on the electoral
lists of the Tower Hamlets in 1847. What chance was there
for any liberal measure, or any liberal Government, in a
House so constituted? Would the Noble Lord (Russell) bt
frank enough to tell them how, in the present state of par-
ties, he meant to maintain his ground—how ho meant to
secure to the country the benefit of past legislation ? The
Noble Lord could not effect either object, and the country
felt it; and he could assure the Noble Lord that if he had no
intention to improve the representation of the kingdom, he
and his adherents • must give way to a stronger party, with
whom, though the independent Members had not much
sympathy, they would be obliged to vote, as they would be
ready to vote with any party who recognised the
-right
of the people to have something like a fair represen-
tation in that House. He trusted the Noble Lord would
not let the session close without giving the country some
assurance as to his intentions on the subject—some pro-
mise of a measure of electoral reform. among the work-

ing classes there was no diminution in the feeling in
favour of extending the franchise. Government could not
take a wiser course than to occupy the recess in matur-
ing some great scheme of Parliamentary reform. But if they
persisted in maintaining silence on the subject, they would
betray the cause of reform, and deserve the censure of the
people.---(Cheers.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down spoke of having tested the feelings of
the people of this country. He might have said with more
propriety that he had been, not a tester, but an exciter of
_their feelings.—(Loud laughter.) He (Mr. Drummond)
had no doubt there was excitement in the country, for that
party to whom the Honourable Gentleman said the Noble
Lord owed his situation had come forward and plainly
avowed• that the measures which they looked for were for
the purpose of establishing a republic.—(No, no.) An
Ilonourable Gentleman opposite stated, at a certain meet-
ing, that he had armed himself with many extracts from
the speeches of the Honourable Member for Buckingham-
shire, and remarked that they were handy as pocket-pis-
tols to fire off as occasion might serve. Taking counsel
from that Honourable Gentleman, ho (Mr. Drummond)
had also about him some extracts from the speeches of
Honourable Gentlemen opposite. Some of those Gentle-
men would probably feel themselves somewhat embar-
rassed when they heard those extracts retorted on them.
They might feel somewhat like the " struck eagle,"
when he—
" Views his own feather on the fatal dart
That drinks the life-blood of his bleeding heart.
Keen were his pangs, but keener far to feel
He nursed the pinion that impelled the steel."
What did Honourable Gentlemen opposite mean by "liberal
measures?" Did they mean any other than those which
would exclude the Crown and V--e aristocracy? They bad
charged Honourable Gentlemen on the Opposition benches
with not having had the courage to advocate distinctly
within the walls of that House those principles which they
had advocated in the country during the last vacation : but
that surely was an imputation which could be fairly brought
against themselves on the question of the extension of the
franchise. Their speeches were evidently delivered with
the view of pleasing their constituents. Now, his belief
was that no man could do his duty in that House who
stopped to deliberate whether the votes that he might give
or that the speeches which he might make, would
please his constituents or not.— (Cheers.) And his ex-
perience whilst he had a seat in that House convinced
him that those amongst them-who were the least attentive
to, and who were the most dead and insensible to, everything
worthy of the name of duty were the men who had been
influenced by the petty vanity of desiring to have a seat in
that House. And he also believed, that when the Govern-
ment desired to carry any measure of reform, such men were
the greatest obstacles with which they had to contend. The
advocates of this extension of the suffrage said that the end
which they had in view was an equalisation of the taxes.
He should be exceedingly glad if we could have an equalisa-
tion of the taxes—(Hear, hear)—and he hoped that the Go-
vernment might be forced during the next session of Parlia-
ment to bringforward some general and homogeneous system
,of taxation by which we should be freed from the anomalies
under which we laboured under the existing system. - (Hear,
hear.) But he really believed that gentlemen who to,,k
upon themselves the trouble of perambulating and agi-
tating the country had ulterior objects in view; he be-
lieved that they desired to effect some more sweeping
change than a mere equalisation of the taxes. They wanted,
they said, "equality," which, of course, meant equality of
property, or, in other words, the destruction of property—
(No, no)—and consequently there would be nothing but
starvation for all.—(Hear, hear.) There could be no doubt
that they wanted "equality," as that word was understood
in France. They wanted to introduce a system ba-ed on a
thorough contempt for the experience of mankind.—(Hear,
hear.) They wanted to evolve out of their own brains a
scheme of government which should set the experience of all
past, as well as the present time, at defiance. The Hon.
Member concluded by saying, at the same time he did not
think the motion of his Hon. Friend involved all the en-
larged views which he (Mr. Drummond) had taken of the
question of reform as it was dealt with by Hon. Gentlemen
on the Government side of the House. As it stood upon the
paper, the motion was simple enough. It was the same that
he had advocated previously, and therefore he could not re-
fuse to advocate it now; but while he gave it his support, he
begged it to be distinctly understood-that he did not do so
with the same views as those who merely regarded this mea-
sure as a narrow point of the wedge which they were desirous
of inserting for the purpose of effecting changes of a far more
important character.

Lord DUDLEY STUART rejoiced that the Hon. Gentle-
man was at all events going to support by his vote, if not by,
his speech, the cause of the people. The Hon. Gentleman as-
serted that the advocates of liberal measures desired a repub-
lic. He entirely repudiated the charge ; nor did he think that
such a thing as a republic was desired by the people of this
country. All they sought was a full and fair representation.
Did any one think that the House of Commons, as at present
constituted, enjoyed the confidence of the people? The mo-
tion was a step in the right direction, and he would therefore
give it his support. He regretted that his Hon. and Gallant
Friend (Sir De Lacy Evans) had withdrawn his more corn-
prehensive measure. He wished to see the franchise bestowed
on all who contributed to the poor-rates. With respect to the
charge of agitatioe, they were determined to agitate till they
had secured a fair representation ; and he felt convinced that
the agitation would ultimately accomplish its object. Did the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government think the repre-
sentation in a fatisfactory state? Plainly not; for he had let
drop a few significant words not long since which indicated
an intention to enlarge the franchise. The people now de-
mended the boon qnietly and calmly; but ware they sure
that this feeling would remain the same in troubled times?
The true policy of those who wished to maintain the country
in a state of prosperity was to grant this measure, and grant
it in time. He hoped his Noble Friend would take this oppor-
tunity of declaring his views, and would promise some great
measure for the enlargement of the franchise in the next
session of Parliament.—(Hear. )
Mr. NEWDEGATE said he was not go'ng to vote in
favour of the motion, although it had been advocated by an
able and intelligent colleague of his on that (the Opposition)
side of the House. What did he find? He found a sweet
unanimity prevailing on the other side of the [louse as to the
first resolution. But beyond this the unanimity entirely
ceased. No less than three qualifications were proposed, and
he and those who sat on the same side with him had there-
fore a right to expect from lion. Gentlemen professing liberal
opinions thet they shou'd at least agree amongst themselves
as to what they really wanted. This movement appeared to
him to be simply an attempt to put the screw on the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government. He (Mr. Newdegate)
was by no means bound to defend the Whig-Radical Reform
Bill of 1832.—( Hear, hear.) Neither was he precluded from
considering any well-directed extension of the franchise,
being one of the old constitutional Tory party so much de-
spired by some Hon. Members. This much, however, he would
say—he would vote for none of the propositions of Hon. Gentle-
men opposite until they knew what they wanted themselves.
Then it would be time enough to consider what their state •
ments were worth. For his own part, he did not believe in
the existence of any extreme anxiety on the part of the
people for any such change. He was perfectly ready to
admit at the same time that that House did not possess the
confidence of a large portion of the people, who had repeat-
edly expressed their desire that the Government would afford
them the opportunity of expressing their opinions by the
selection of their representatives according to the existing
forms of the constitution; but there was nothing like the ex-
pression of a want of confidence in those forms, or of the pre-
sent qualification. He could not agree with the Noble Lord
who had last spoken, that because the people were at this
moment quiet and contented, this was the time for disturbing
their tranquillity by introducing a measure for the alteration
of the franchise. There were already disturbing elements
enough. Until an appeal had been made to the country by
a dissolution, he had a right to say that all these proposals
for a change, coming from the opposite side of the House, ex-
pressed an extreme want of confidence in their own position
with respect to the present constituencies.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he should vote against the present
proposition very much upon the ground which the Hon.
Member for West Surrey had assigned for supporting it.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Hon. Member said he did
not think any considerable mischief could arise from it, be-
cause at this period of the session it would not be possible
to do more than lay the Bill on the table of the House. To
deal in so trifling a spirit with the large and important
question of the franchise, would be neither becoming to
the character of that House nor fair to the people. This
was quite a sufficient reason for voting against the mo-
tion, without entering into the merits of the particular pro-
position involved in it; and he felt, moreover, justified in
refraining from entering upon it, because its supporters had
hardly gone into coy arguments having the least refer-
ence to that proposition. If they were to deal with the
extension of the franchise, it was not in the middle of July
that they ought to begin.—(Hear, hear.) He had been
invited to a discussion, into which he should certainly not
enter at any length, having on a former occasion delivered his
opinions fully to the House. The supporters of the motion
had treated of matters not at all before them on the present
occasion, such as the number of electors and their represen-
tatives, and the usual arithmetical calculations had been
gone through, to show the disproportion which existed in
some instances. This was all perfectly true, but it was
really time for those who insisted so much on bringing
such facts constantly before the House, to point out what
inference they proposed to draw from them. - (Hear, hear.)
But if equality ought to be the rule, then he asked them to
show the House a plan of those districts into which they
proposed to divide the country. Let them exhibit a plan
of the squares and parallelograms into which they intended
to divide the country, and then the House would be able to
see whether the sort of representation they wished to give
was the sort of representation the country wished to hare
—(Hear.) He required this the more because he saw the
Hon. Member of the Tower Hamlets left out of the represen-
tation of counties, as if they li ad no importance, had no right
to vote, and possessed no claim to respect. In making the
county division, they said—put the towns on one side, and
put the boroughs on the other. They appeared to forget
there were such counties as Lincolnshire and Devonshire,
which had 40,000 electors—a sufficient number to be repre •
sented in that House, and to have their feelings, their senti-
ments, and their views represented in that House, and repre-
sented in the divisions which took place in that House.—
(Hear, hear.) He wished the whole of the statement to be
made, in order to see how they proposed to disfranchise large
counties, and what additional weight they proposed to give
to small boroughs. He begged, when they next brought
forward the argument, that they at the same time would
bring forward their scheme, so that the House might see
whether it was compatible with our form of Government.
And, without entering into the question as to whether the
House altogether represented the people—whether there were
not some inequalities in the representation—and whether
equal representation might not be preferable to the
existing system, he did say that the people were deeply
and thoroughly attached to the present form of Government
—(Hear, hear)—and had always made it a condition,
in any reform that might be contemplated in the' constitu-
tution of that House, and the mode in which the people
should elect their representatives, that this reform should be
compatible and consistent with a Monarchy and a House of
Lords, which form, as well as the House of Commons,
fundamental portions of the constitution. And when the
Hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets, and other Hon. Mem-
bers, again brought forward this subject, he hoped the
House would first require them to state what plan they
proposed, and next el' the result of the proposed plan
would be agreeable to the wishes of the people—namely,
whether it would conduce to the maintenance of the pre-
sent form of government. He did not wish to add anvthiig
to what he had before said on the same subject.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Member for the Tower Harntets said, unless we
came forward with a pledge of some plan of reform to be
determined upon during the Parliamentary recess, and to
be brought forward early next session, he and other Hon.
Members would lose confidence in the Government, and
then government would no longer exist. He did not
see why Government should give such a pledge and
frame such a plan in order to bring it forward
next session. If the Government had not the confidence of
that House—if Hon. Gentlemen thought a change in the
Government advantageous, let it take place. That was the
natural course of events. They would then see their plan
of Parliamentary reform brought forward by those in whom
they could place confidence, and brought foi ward in a much
better way.—( Hear, hear.) He had nothing further to say
with respect to the motion, except that he could not see

there could be any possible advantage to be antiCipated.
hearcon d
sidering this was July, in bringing the motion- (Hear'
Mr. BRIGHT did nut think the near approach of the
termination of the session was a good rea-or. for not enter-
taining the motion. Nor did he think the Noble Lord's nal?:
of treating the question was altogether satisfactory or Ea'
able. The Noble Lord had complained that the
on the question were not to the point. But the Noble Lel
whole speech had no reference whatever to the
the
t
the population of England were dropped from the clouds a,.
the present moment, without any representative go
exercised
the Noble Lord with all his courage-which be exerciseat
always most fearlessly when wrong-(Hear)--w°eldel•lech
venture to recommeed the system of representation nelese
now existed in England and Ireland. What be and othe,„
asked, was not a total change of the existing systenn
such a correction of the resent inequalities as weeht
make the representation present inequalities 9.
make the representation nearer that which it out; h
to be. What was wanted was to make the bernecAs
9P +s
and county system of qualification equal, and if the n2!
Lord had not an unchangeable hostility to an extension of tut;
representation, he could not refuse to support the inohe.r.sea
proposition of his Hon. Friend. If the present proeosiielr 0
were carried, the effect would be to bind the leoPlee mere
closely to the constitution as it now stood.-(Chairs.) d
Noble Lord, the rejected of Devonshire, twice elected.so)l
once rejected by Devonshire, to its discredit, bad felt the eldsbeig
of a narrow constituency there. He had Leen Wei. eiss
the power of the Church, who raised the cry that ne.
about to bring the Pope into the country
urn
heretics.-(0b, oh). Had there been a wider constitut
the Noble Lord might Lave remained the repro- entatisyo.l
one of the largest counties in the kingdom. The Noble ISt En.
said the •people approved of the present co"steit,ll)
Hiedid nut credit the assertion. (Cries of 0" ls who
e!e was not more than ore person out of every seve. one
were represented in this country. It was natural that tee nd
unrepresented should feel discontented with their position,
ee,
d oseurr
should look to other countries where reforms a of•
and desire to see the same reforms extended to tbis coo
He would advise the Noble Lord not to refer to July siss riseses
egain, and to Doc
son for nt entertaiin imortant questicin.
satisfied, o
if the motion g ofthis his HODp. Friend were taken lir' I
t
would give general satisfaction to the countr. •
thaMtr.
taunted for not bringing forward specific
HouselC I NwGe
were
n vreerpyl y ,b saidadiy thatao
used:
d pendentay
v!lreens
able; sot ill:
moment they did so the Government intervened 5'
and pre'
vented them from carrying them on. The Noble Lor.(t
one
hampered by two parties-the one for progress, an etows
languagewas thataf he e
Captain d nliortabo
which desired to see things remain stationary. T cab ill
quanta
eeeibeegat h -H e
"How happy could I be with either,
Were t'uther dear charmer '
away
But while you both teaze me together,
To neither a word will I say.' been
Mr. GRATTAN said that the Noble Lord ha-, „ea
could say
to the
taunted with treating the subject in a rather J..° iese
manner; for his part, he preferred a jocose to
the
Minister.-(Hear, hear.) But if they complained of tue tbst
of the representation in this country, let them recollect
bieb
in Ireland there were 7,000,000 of people, out of e'nole
there were not 70,000 individuals who had a vote. The P 7 of
of Ireland would be satisfied with the constituniodhe
England, but they should receive it; and thee; We They
satisfied with nothing less. What was their position ?
declared
had sent up a Bill to another House in which they rtheir
that there should be an 8/. rating. In defiance 0,1 Lord
wish a 151. rating had been inscrted. Did the Nobl tmea
mean to be ri tden over after that fashion ? He (*she'll(); to
English gentlemen to stand up for their rights, and
permit themselves to be thus trampled upon.
Mr. DISRAELI then rose and said-I hay
to you, Sir, and the Hon. Gentleman opposite, for attee•
ing to rise after he had concluded bis reply; but, as theLo-
bate has been re-opened, and as it has assumed aalthough
pect, I hope I may he allowed to say a few words, d that
it was against my original intention to do eo. I firl,„„seh
an English Reform Member finds fault with the •`:',tulle
Reform Act, and an Irish Reform Member finds faint e the
the Reform Act for Ireland. We who sit on this side 0' The
e to apologist!
House are not responsible for either of those AeLeit in,
Noble Lord has a deeper personal and politie;oo.
terest in them than we have. In listening to tbepar
tions which have passed daring the debate, I bore "'"wfticb
ticularly struck with the want of comptehensione, hoe
exists as to what our constitution really is- of the
always believed that gentlemen on the other side the
House, whatever might be their opinion with respect io_sdi,
franchise, considered that the constitution bad been_su
illges
fled by the privileged classes, who enjoyed their Prevece a
for the general advantage of the community.
~Ve
orals
Throne-we have a House of Peers, spiritual and tam certain
and we have a House of Commons in possession, of e`theoe
privileges. You may increase, enlarge, or dint
always
privileges, but still they are privileges wbich have 8,1, nor-
iireitenueihe
been enjoyed in the history of this country by
tion of the community. We know well what has heel, to
result of such a constitution, whatever may have beeoi,
material. It has been established on the aristocratic brays
pie in the widest and the noblest sense of the term. eto'
always heard it taught by gentlemen opposite that P°l;liest
numb
and and political privilege was obtainable by everY
and virtuous artisan under the old system, whatever wee
of classes the community was divided into. No elessfrota
deprived of the privilege of electing its representativer-,0,
the proudest manorial lord to the humblest artisan
land, all were represented. Some years_ ago, less tfellthet
quarter of a century, you thought proper to tersaisefel.eister
scheme, and it was so by the Noble Lord the First Den:
in his official capacity by
measure he proposed Wee'ntiee
cepted with enthusiasm; it was supported by man). gentle.
AO
men who were then Members of this House, and there °ugh
gentleman opposite who has not acquired his seat tbre ee,
the instrumentality of that measure. They are therefbr 0111.
sponsible, and ought to be gr-iteful, for the Beforelef
What is your position now? There are a great ntlinw _es
gentlemen who are discontented with that settlement-eqe jt
demon who were ready to vote that black was white lune
support when proposed-gentlemen who went to the coney,
fur the whole Bill and nothing but the Bill. They wereeet
sponsible; no doubt, they had maturely weighed the e.. 10.
and the attendant circumstances which would be ate,
quent on that great political change in a great counole
They no doubt said, We are going to effect a great change. to
adopt any measure without due deliberation and careful Jo
the fortunes of a great country. We will take care no,'; e..
vestigation. We will do nothing rashly, but what weees,
will be permanent and lasting. It his happened, boWe'ket
that ever since this Bill, the whole Bill and nothing .'nfe
the Bill was adopted, there have been nothing but COnin.latihet
of its working. Gentlemen are always quarrelling se.
1
political arrangement which sent them to this goo
o this
know that I speak the feelings of many Members
sap the
side of the House when I say 'that I have no se,.„B the
tious reverence for the Reform Act. I was notllesfe
House when it passed, but if I had been I should hy. a
opposed it. It was a settlement brought forwareisfoe
party to whom I should have been in opposition from)-we of
deal associations. No doubt, in the supplementary v donot
that case, the interests of party were not neglected. s riven
attribute any blame to such A proceeding. If genewitbil
ever have the opportunity of carrying a measure er'
kind, which I believe they never will, they will be cia"-were
titled to do the same. Bat the interests of your poll,. en,
then provided for in the measure you accepted wit', yon
thusiasm. I think it a matter to be regretted `hat
should have destroyed the privileges of ' the w°ritb.
classes, who were represented under the old system, to
to
out
. finding out some compensatory enr,,,eol
awnhdatnHotohnin.gGenbutitemtheen Wllifatht
ely
provide for the loss. But who voted against the svorVl3lll.
is a
an n 0
Why the gentlemen who went for the Bill, the wheleisoong
e
longer endure the ancient constitution of this coin's/• ars',
constitution modified by the political estates of the ree)
why then I say you propose a revolution.-(llear, heara.e er
you are prepared to do so, why come forward with )7%001
isfor a 101. franchise in a county, a resolution with•
rmiseeanfort onseaWy
is always met with a congenial amendment which le None
drawn if found conven ent. But none of you do this- . 00
of you declare that every man is entitled to the suffiageeciera;
the contrary, several of your leading men have mad speech
tions hostile to such a proposition. I remember a, 4, en"
the Member for the West Riding to such an e,f1e,,',00 itt;
the Hon. Member for Manchester has put a it
ages lifs'
There is not one of ou who says that a man of full
ooreS?
be entitled to the franchise. Bring forward your re., ethen lee
tell us what you mean and what you want; sou hien Ow,
will be prepared to meet you. By the settlement 0310'
Noble Lord proposed, he immensely increased the numb
and the importance of the Commons a this c° heel
Great and, on the whole, beneficial changes h!elree pair
the consequence of that measure. Although "l'
settle
lie benefit had been the main object of the,netae
ment of 1832, yet it was also made in a suplcerwe
sense in favour of the power of the party to whicll eatS
opposed, and by the machinery of the Act, the hela
conferred should extend in a relative proportion as thea alte_et°
lation extended. One would have supposed in
the speeches of Honourable Gentlemen, that eighteen
ottere
ago the House of Comm ens had actually decided t 1 bee
her of electors who were to vote. But what have not
*
both in this House and out of it? That there Ws conloilf
working man who was virtuous and industrious theee'te nt
not obtain the franchise. Well, and are the Pe.eqt,
England so besotted that they cannot make the snore sO
that they find it necessary to propose some such Me% thie
this? I am for the system which would establish !it the
country a free Government which has confidence ela ere
energy and the higher powers of man. Gentlerateed
posite would degrade man to the franchise ias ate
raising man to it. lam for a free aristocratic eoet.30010:,
(Ironical cheers)-free, because it is so. These tin ire
men who jeer are ignorant that I use the word 1:14 is *s
limited meaning but in its noblest sense, sleis'heers'l
achieve the best and to accomplish the best.--t`',,_ ens
We have been told that we to look to Frasi.e". told
that by • the Member for Westminster, who ,et ()nett,'
us that in Paris there are 70,000 electors, while be lies °n
7,i 00. But he forgot to tell you that for every lie for'
elector there were two bayonets to keep bine dosfu'eeere these'
got that the electors who sent him to this House "s eons;
will live
who for centuries sent men to this House whoseho- eein,
in the history of this count the man roes
to
maintain the struggle for liberty. To draw
111 :• 14.0 x, Sir Francis Burdett, and other illustrious ns .000
a 01;040
with such a life and such a history with that of et a yen
country was a degradation which I did not think t,theerSts
-el
a reformed House of Commons would tolerate elloi
Sir, I have been told that it would be a good thing
then
sup
the Government to fight this question out with teen bee-
porters, and in Parliamentary tactics it would hahvitee ne
so; but I have nothing to do with them. le 1 ree,
superstitions reverence for the Reform Bill, nu _fop.
spect the verdict of the nation. Although that es" Wing
ment was made to promote the attainment Ti he
power and gratify the lust of Whig :patronage, silpratiaer,
contented to abide by it. The Reform Act had boil woe
by the consent of the nation, and should not be real
on idle grounds. You disturb it ; but what is tue„..ast ty;
cret of all these July motions? Why, you do n,,.°t neac:;
constituencies which sent you to this House.-(11 of to
You know well that if you appeal to that privilege in
people, enlarged as it was by the Reform Bill, not 006,....a0"`
of you would be returned•-(Laughter and cheerio%leOtS''
you think you can in this way manage your conssiveceer
You think that by thus cobbline• landgg suffer ill
ing and polishing, the people ofbEng will still sn,reneee
to continue Members of Parliament.-(Cheers )
not the slightest chance of it-(Cheers)-for heeisigroi'l-e
if the electors of this kingdom consisted of every n'„",:aghte,;
subject of her Majesty, you would still be sentoff.--C"-51)
and cheer.) Ido not believe that a 101., or a ein"-;
a 2/. franchise, or universal suffrage itself, would save Y 0.
(Cheers.) I believe that the great mass of the PePtinste
England would remain faithful to the traditionary Atte po-
of Englishmen, and declare that, whatever might beee friol
litical manoeuvre-whatever might be the nature at,.
,ould
chise-whatever might be the scheme which yeti 'be for
adopt-they would be for the monarchy-they Vionll3 wade,
the empire -they would be for that constitution Whle woo
them free and made them eminent; and that theY stem o.
give a great national verdict against that levelling sYroe
suV
political tergiversation of which you are the siv°
porters.-(Hear, and cheers.) e WO-
Sir B. HALL remarked that it WAS usual, when,arleratioil
Gentleman brouht forward a motion for the censlution hi*
wro
reply
a spti hyae
closeddlelpo au
rs
teut,
the
thatee dob
fromaatfet.te_br
ttiih
debate.-(Hear.)
discussionuars.t oln
Ctfile oe
custom-(Hear
a thatheenatitrliate° ?art boll:,
traordinary departure.—(Hear, hear.)

letleelt4 the Member for Meath (Mr. Grattan) rose after the
r
LL:Viy, and alluded to certain measuresee_ot immediately undf
Elite
kcoionsrideration of the House. The Hon.
to
r*
sthosgearnshire, upon the assumption that he
Member
a toh replyer 4r
and
.oe_extraneous observationso of his Hon. Friend, got up 1,4
wvoillt eel. thee
_euolnes that Assembly. (Hear,
that,
in
1-1 Member were .in substancet a
new
edelisequence of new matter having been introduced,
hellate was generated. The Hon. Gentleman, one would
new thought, would at_ once have addressed him, sfeelrfetnoetehatot
'ere Matte
el_ le have made some re
Lithit fen frror7iwtrelHoatti. Member for Meath— at he would
e7e.lustitied the pretended cause of his risingth;ebut the fact
li'llB lie dilnenoteVen.allude to it. Upon th
recoutiislit,reedt ed by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Grattan)main thee
_I?, , time and opportunity for discussion, but this hie
the `` rt), that he hoped the House would now befirm
When restitution which it had passed.—(Hear, hear.) But
Lit"aeVie Hon. Gentleman said we are for a monarchy—we
a Rouse of Lords—we are for a
only
eof Cotrnhe-
-Be—notp representing the people,. he echoed
But the Hon. Gentle-
theaia rzents of himself and his friends.
said," What do you want? "
ethey had often asked
forAanted—they wanted that whichl-1 would tell him what
4a _ Irt Which had not been conceded to them—they wanted
now nearly twentei-
e„etsersion of the freechise. It
Facesears since the Reform Bill had been passed,. and they had
then oft
loth. en attempted to obtain a franchise
.more suitablethey
had ,' growing wants and wishes of the population, but _
sel_eeen foiled in almost every
nt of the rates three
eetending the period for the payment restelas lon instance.r Even a proposal
reel
aft onager than the original periu period had not been carried
said t, el: a struggle of thirteen. years. the neat if he had been in Parliament hTehweouffldeeh.aGyeenotplpeolaend
opiareeforin Bill; let me ask him if he was always of that
Mr. 11.4---(Hear, hear.)
Bi,ISRA.ELI intimated that he was.
i•ie,.- .4',' lIALL —Will the Hon. Gentlemanhaltoohke
afeete Ode Herne) in the face and say t pesesithat opinion ? in:
has Hon.bsa
it` uISRELI Certainly.
he Hon. Gentleman
Whoirel3' llALL—Certainly I Why, t • n of' protection ,
ete poi
stands forward as the great champion thi,e! tinie held opinions now entertained by Gentlemen ou I
" VeeBilite "the House. The Hon. Gectleireßailnl slainfainme_offehnatTe !
rem have deterinined upon the Reform e ettivett that it shall be a foal measure."
) Did ho not I
Re deese Were a' ways his principles ? ( e Let me ask him
tit (p! to the borough of llig
) Did he not
le de Connell and Mr. Hume? (Tarr, )
le Wycolimhbeaearra.s_ the protégé of .
semen ender these auspices? —( _.:
%%vete represent Marylebone • --.
2 7teear D)
id
Dheidnkote
noten-
Nei ? go into Parliament for that borHs'lognh.
GonenLtliebmeraanl !
Ate ttli e.„s? - (Hear.) Why, I can tell the
Ire, 0 noir.% the very shape in which'. he framed his ad-
11' i',r4lid the place in which he wrote it ,
this
tiafral,hlawdeannlyd haeera that the debate would have taken
Itseneeee prepared with a copy of that excellent address.— 1
lieetieeeihte!, aed cries of rrHear.") Yes,
which that
I Call tell the Hon. i
irrepeaeaen of the very place in address i
teeet
r.ed, and I will too.—(Laughter.) It wasin Crawford- :
The irteatistone-square, in the borough of Marylebone. I
Ire i 0 eh?: Gentleman visited a tallow-chandler there, and it I
kid cries 3ho he wrote that add. res,s.
eeeeLie o fuse Question.") Question!
.
Aye(Gi rbuteat
thetilrsgtahter,
too.—(Renewed
elaugh-enr:\atlia very - ugly question it 13
.aronet J . There sits the Hon.. Gentleman (said the Iploon: 1
Stattle,' Pointing to Mr. Disraeli), the championcfthe
saysr 1
ee i!43t Party—there sits the Hon. Gentleman—who
;')luact hearty—there in the House, he would have votedmanagwaiennstt
ikeferne, Bill—and yet that same Hon. Gentle n
Friend
t'"i(l6' IVYCOrnbe under the auspices of my H istee.ilte, and of the late Mr. O'Connell, and
cite Std to represent karylebone borough on
e6,(Clieers and cries of e Question. )
em
I have the 1
put
e r. al himself
p ri n- i
I aree3t cresol 'for the talents of the Hon. Gent_an • but I ate I,ieting facts—facts in which, I believe, the Honourable
rteeetearned Member for Nottingham.( Mr...O'Connor) con
t that, under
ties i„eleee if lam Wrong—and I again assert e e'mont-
tase "" and seal of the Honourable Member o
tleetZlnd the late Mr. O'Connell, the Honourebldeo Gneno-t ley thewhas sent down to High Wyc ‘mbe. I
tineipt,:4o,O• Gentleman went to the whole extent. of the
was quite up to
,e 41-, ,-0,
bate Charter. Ido not say,
is ahai'le;
at he was a decided Lihheeral, I think there
°ate Lit!aet evidence with the to prove.—(Question.) I have now
rirsh Hon. Gentleman. There he now sits the ' lad ePlen of the Protectionid party=—the Hon. MemfboerrHwighho
tiiioeoeatelltia
_cend_id. ate for le.larylebone—a candidate
"test en Liberal principles. I hoe the Hon.
.fGtehne-
L‘lterefte Ltiv,1,1,1,, in the spirit of his own prophecy—that i
'Nei Lege oe caied, we on this side of the House will b.e
bey
eoel the electors—but meet me on the hustings—and it
there liaPPen that he eet that sam.e tall
hrle at:l....at,
e th• anghter andcries of " Question.") I whailhldnloert
11Pne L, els question' fu'rther, nor would I have at all touched
t unusual
Nett'ee'_ if the llou. Member had not i
Jett h ~ te-epened the debate and gone inntoatmheos.va hole_sumby-
no e'cire tee le I will • port the .motion of
tepee - ouse.
nr tied the Member fur East Surrey. ,l'Letlia.e„ B,RAELI rose, after a pause of a few moments—
''(llea
_tee House tvill'not think it obtrusive or objection-
ii'ile if I answer the uestions of the Hon. Gentlemtahn.
Nieq ,e"r, hear.) 1 do not pciropose to offer any very lengi le--
tare )!Planarions of my conduct. What the Hon.. G 114:11 with such an ak of originality was saidmi:emnthbeer /tfiert LelivenlY lines before. The House lhay;'ettheey did, it
tretoeistated upon so insignificant a subject; i
See re wae , •
1 Mi his et mite unnecessary for the Hon. Gentleman to
feael, aileLe larges, or that I should give an answer to them.
an 'us, however, to correct some errors in matters aetxteprlsaioaf
thee,'
„.....--el I trust the Ho' use will hear me, whilst
soy iVeliir, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman wasndidate for i
'll3'N. hie whole statement. I never was a entirely
fleeuesseeee when the merits of the Recorm Bill were in q,,,u.e_s-, 1
etaespa krronical cheering, and cries of " Hear, hear.")
Honourable
'esti ree was passed at the period to which the Honer
l`ly le4ll elhides.--(Rened ironical cheers.
NE 0 been the eccentricity of my opinions on p lit_i
111
le' ets, le, ) W hoe.
.t.e.vc ear.
14i•-•(orics as f always,ie consistently.,
wo.apapoisned to the Reform
opposition to the
1 <patty,
inui
in
pr,
olsiiettr.n"
)from no interested motivets-: ebterti. exPressed opposition
opinions I have done to-night 1
NI e teed „
a,„ 4 p they
as the traditionary, historical, legitimate,.,
rai, a(g)1. i eap,Pini,°ll.
.4 of the pcoele of this country, and whePl
ti‘tt 4,4 political movement made by a party to which,
phi s' ,:tig I was opposed, I gave utterance to my sme-
lt ig " Lieu the Reform Bill was roposed,
iqkt , as i et,
Whig settlement of
I opposed the
the leestiut..... now. I opposed tie
111ileseetry ac (Hear, hear)—only accepted it because
aurd I lint the Hon. Gentle-
l'esedisetetallY mlsteadkietn.—((eishneelase.)says that I am now op-
kb
etecee'L;r that I ever at (Cheers,)
'tme was.opposed to that settle_
vtheatise 1 seas in favour of Parliamentary finality. _
.1t
e, et I ever said
anything
_the!
iklbe -"" Ile said I went down to the borough of wY-
ler e en the reco'in
S't r kontr
I eras bred
mendirtionfmy Hon. Friend the Memi
aa °t bore • nee* \I hy, I lived in that b.orough ;
ti!ftliztolliiieertitiaoiait town • and from this circumstance, as well
dent;believe tnat
.I now represen
lit;',, th,e'lia h h that borough is situatied (Hear.) As to
he the were. Gentleman says about 2, arylebone borough
That ho-
egh, th Tow -chandler I will not dwell upon.
teate ,tieteirlon. Bonet', by some happy chance, now repro-
i)erioiteoi del dare say(A ibaynthhe aid of that tallow-chandler w_sho.m. sejieePal,,supporter. (Rnedev7eadltliaoaugghhtlerd.)arelsahyavlree
re-
proved ee,ol the circumstances except that I believe °lieemnls-
e,,"'fnsl Man Speaking generally, I can recall no ex-
%es se ts 'd
te_!lteera.e_.....a neess-1 cannot, of course answer for the
WI pinio'n",
,sr tech 15 not in perfect uniso_n..with the poll-
eth 8 1 nave expressed here. I disclaim having ever
Doer e advocate of p 1.
leh.ion takes,
eParliamentary finality That was the
e, ;q friends, 0T the Noble Lord (Lord J.-'Russell) and hes
t'niareen,_ S• I repeat, I was opposed to-that system of
toreste
of ...Ty settlement, because it was opposed. to the in-
terleciee .`" Party with which I was connected,-and not
The tot in in mind to the true interests of the country., 81
she 0 . further notice those ludicrous misrepresentaaene
eiltleat)l4l34 I Upheld in my youth I now maintain, and will
The
air to uphold.—(Cheers.)
4°llse the mot;ided, when there appeared—
For the on 100
•••
, Against it
... .. .:
... 10e
The e.. Majority against the motion... ----'9
reoliou was accordingly lost.
tre Ae9eOLONIAL AND FOREIGN COFFEE.
411eiete"e13TEY then moved that a Select Committee
.be_
441 fo -•'' to inquire into the declining state of the colonial
rise reign trade in coffee, and of the public revenue thence
r led;
rQq, end whether such decline is attributable to any
the he Practised by the sellers of coffee, or others, and as to
tit), ofst web
of preventing such frauds. In 1846 the quan-
art Leh.eeffee entered for foreign export was 51,813,65i1b5.,
63,a2eteh the dut • was 786,654/. In 1849 the quantity was
I 'lean •
h° u15°,61b5., mion which the duty was 6e3,2181. In 1846
hie, . ,Ity entered for home consumption was 36,793,0611b5.,
11,1 1849 it had sunk to 34,434,0941b5. During the
tire:, "t„tis period there was a decrease in the consumption.
areele.einfee, while there was an increase of the fictitious
lenettelLneLl BI
sICKALL seconded the motion. He repee-
rieeo the coffee Planters of Ceylon, who desired that no dis-
eaque„ating duty should be levied on chicory, but that soma
A hev J sheuld take place into the sudden depression in coffee.
eapittirltivated trona 25,000 to 30,000 acres of land, with a
ke ooe°,f 1,280,000/. embarked, and a yearly outlay of
lleete w• or 100,000 L, and were, therefore, entitled to be
11'1' 01',1 the Subject.
ranee CR, ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER need go no
lice t 'amen the Hon. Gentleman's own statements to show
e,elinnecesear
y a Committee would be. When the facts
*eta admitted. what were they to inquire about? Remedies
(1.1 suggested: it was admitted they were applicable.—
...teop ter ) He would not go into the arguments he had used
e' . •
tee former occasion. .If he proposed an excise inquisition
hef,o the manner in which the trade was carried on, lie would
eh„te a month was over have the whole country in a flame.
to illn_ierinution which had bee '"hole referred to was attributable
th,t' irnportation of, foreign cote. In conclusion he said
Oprove this period of the sessionie the(inarin'irY Proposed would
tt t;i'l he a most bootless
iteiwOuld be useless t point a
leo; ill. GIRS°N agreedhad been suggested iOni aappetition
Whieh , ee; but a remedy
e was that they ehouicl qual:se
the deee presented, which 4 proni 9u foreign and colonial' coffee. Colonial coffee had
ket
tittectnig dutY of 50 per cent., and it kept out of the
the
blgh• flavoured coffee, and chicory was u:,ed with the
le te "free of Ceylon. They dercla.,.regclofth,,eyohh,aodhey,n,fidoeniveee
N'ae.principle of free trade.---(irleeefit a buying his coffers
l'ethorialtd) the British farmer the ben
Sir j be,eng burdened with protection.
\Lk, , • ELLIYR said he was a grower
_ofchicory.--
eLaughter.)
It kgiter.) It ad a profitable crop.
(Hear.) Up
giinr..h;st a great amount of labour, for the purpose of
lob thilee A into the market in a proper state.—
it was sup-
l'lrt a dtitne the Chancellor of the Exchequer had refused to
liesed tilY uPon it. It was used with coffee,
impor-
•tt, ee:e give the Mocha flavour.—(Laughter )aaHe repeated
11t stNd by it. Then as to the price, it was an
141,01'44er M the consideration of this subject. As to being
Neese(' nlion, the agriculturists suffered in the purchase of
tise t but as far as the use of chicory was concerned, the
°C it
thereby
4 111.. e . Was found beneficial to the poor, whogot
If the
ti 4 rior article than theotherwise could obtain.. ,
see tenor ...P ~ y
t that i Exchequer became an agriculturist htm-
DANit, nterest would be better protected upon the benches
~ `,
71, -}-,,, STET. replied.
pOr'°use then divided, when there appeared—
Pie motion
.. 60
tiltist it "'
... .... 205
••• ••• ••• •••
145
4:11\.1) kejority
... ...
...
On e AY REGULATIONS IN THE POST-OFFICE.
tend te'eutr te-adioission te th allery it was eleven o'clock,
titeioldu.tier
nenf oufheileri. Locke had arrived to bring forward the
the nig or th i Ile had given notice, for the yirtual_.re-
eehrt . e recent regulations in the Postsoffice regarding
etlithr• l'OsZiZeSendays of letters and newsp.apers,
that
e mien '3 eIACKENZIE was upon his legs, speakingh
at the 1.1 of nooe a d ati 110, sseuse wo n confusion, and expressing
. the hope
bri -Ir•- so 0 uld not proceed with the motion at so late
~, g It
„foreee,P 'rile Hon. Mover had said he would not
I,sennn,,; eNo after ten or eleven o'clock.---(" Oh,. oht ; _
touilliada eral tio4.'„„ and great confusion, in the midshotf
ei 1" obtain a h"etebsrs tried to address the House, but
rhasNGLle Zling.)
et be
110 n. m. on the queitehat a full and fair discussion. could
Wee) , "ler. had
,_aids he at that hour of the night. The
Eor:tal t( d'ee
go
not bring it on after eleven
gelleperebt e-- en, go on •" " No, no.")
o amber', 0,
- 'Ai presented petitions for

and against the rescinding of the recent resolution passed. by

the House.

Mr. FORSTER presented a petition, which, cs well as we
could understand amidst the noise and confusion, was from

the underwriters of Lloyd's, which he said contained several
important facts, and the petitioners declared-that it would be
impossible to carry on their business while the restriction was
in force. Also another petition very numerously and highly
respectably signed by admirals, general officers, physicians,
and professional men, against the new regulation ; also a
third petition from a place, the name of which we could not
hear, to the same effect.
Mr. DISRAELI presented a petition from a place in Bucks,
in favour, we believe, of the new regulation.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from the meeting
held the night before at the London Tavern, eigned by the
chairman, against the continuance of the restriction.
Sir E. BUXTON presented a petition in favour of the
new arrangement, but whence it was impossible to hear,
Sir J. PAKINGTON apprehended that Hon. Members
who were presenting petitions desired that the debate should
go on, but as he objected—(Cries of " Order.")
Mr. ROEBUCK said that it was not competent to the
Hon. Member to speak and make objections to petitions;

The SPEAKER. bad not observed that the Hon. Member
was making objections to the petitions, or that he was out
of order.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that it was not his intention to
make any observations on the petition.
Much confusion, and cries of" Go on," amidst which
Mr. LOCKE rose. He said he, felt himself plaeed in a
difficulty. He had a petition of importance t 3 present that
was of personal interest to himself. He had certainly'said,
in the early part of the evening, that if his motion could
not come on between eleven and twelve o'clock, he would
not press it forward. Two or three Gentlemen on the op-
posite side had addreaaed him personally, and ho had told
them he would not bring it on after eleven o'clock. The
Hon. Member was proceeding, when disorder was renewed,
during which
Mr. COI3DEN presented a petition, but neither the `pur-
port nor the name of the place from hich it emanated could
be heard.
Sir H. INGLIS was understood to move that Mr. F. Mac-
kenzie be heard.

The SPEAKER put the question that Mr. Mackenzie be
heard.—(No, no, and go on.)
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member for Honiton
had risen when calle,l upon to bring forward his motion, and
he apprehended was in strict pcssession of the House: Ap-
peals had been made to the Hon Member to put off his mo-
tion, but the Hon. Member was in possession, and ought to
have the option of proceeding or not.—(Cheers.) When
the Hun. Member sat down any other Hon. Member might
speak.
Mr. LOCKE rose again, but as the noise prevented a word
he uttered from being heard he resumed his seat. _ _

Sir R. INGLIS 'lien rose, but was received with a storm
of calls to order and for Mr. Locke, and " Chair, chair."
Sir R. INGLIS respectfully submitted that, after the
Speaker had called upon the Lion. Member for Honiton, he
had put another question from the chair—namely, "'That
the petitions do lie upon the table?" Upon that question
the Hon. Member for Droitwich rose, and, therefore, the
Hon. Member for Honiton was not in pos.e:ession.—(Much
cheering, and renewed confusion.) He took this ground
with the utmost respect to the Chair, that the Hon. Member
for Honiton had net that audience of the House to which he-
would have been so well entitled if the intermediate question
had not been put.- (Cheers.)
The SPEAKER said that, according to the ru'es of the
House, no debate could arise on petitions. The Horn. Mem-
ber for Droitwich had risen to speak to that subject, and the
question respecting the petitions had been put. He had
thought it right.that the Hon. Member for Honiton should
have the opportunity to speak on the subject of putting off
his motion, and he thought that Hon. Member was still in
possession.—(Hear, hear, and cheering.) If the House
thought the debate should not proceed further, any Hen.
Member was at liberty to move the adjournment of the
Houie. The question, however, that Mr. Forbes Mackenkie
be heard must be first put.
Mr. A. HOPE attempted to address the House, but in
vain. _ _

Mr. DISRAELI said a few words, but was rendered nearly
inaudible by the buzz,which prevailed. We understood him
to say that the Hon. Member for lloniton had certainly
said, that after eleven o'clock he would not bring on the
motion. But when these arrangements were made for the
convenience of Members the house should not be too-severe
in their interpretation. When the House returned from the
division it was eleven o'clock, and considering the nature of
the question—which he did not think required a very long
debate, if they did 'sit up a little later, what mattered ? it
was much more desirable that the subject should be disposed
of than that they should all go away; and lie collected the
feeling of the House to be that the Hon. Member for Eloniton
should speak.—("No, no," and "Go on.")
Still greater noise and confusion here arose, with cries of
"Withdraw, withdraw." We understood Sir Robert Inglis
to refuse to withdraw his motion that Mr. F. Mackenzie Le
heard, and that motion was then put from the chair, and
negatived.

Mr. LOCKE then rose, but was heard with difficulty
amidst the buzz and incoherent sounds which filled the at-
mosphere of the House. He said he would respond, to the
best of his ability, to the feeling and wishes of the House,
and would detain them for as short a period as possible; for
he felt that at that time of the night he could not expect
that attention with which at an earlier period of the evening
they might possibly have favoured him. He assured the
ilowse,,however, that the stoppage of the Post-office was a
subject of very great importance, and one that demanded a
larger and much more careful consideration than the House
had rt. bestowed. The House might be assured that in any
remarks he might make he had not the slightest intention
of imputing blame to any Honourable Member, tut this
much he would say, that the day on which the debate on
this subject occurred, and the resolution passed, happened to
be a day on which some races were held, and, consequently,
there was a thin attendance in the House. Many Hon.
Members, therefore, had been taken by surprise.—(Hear.)
The Noble Lord the Member for Bath had undoubtedly made
his statement with great moderation, and however much he
(Mr. Locke) might differ in opinion with him as to the ap-
plication of the rules he had laid down, there could be no
doubt of the l urity and charity of his motives, or of the mo-
deration with which de had propounded his views to the
House. The NOble Lord had dwelt much upon the great
number of petititions which had been presented to the House
in favour of the views he advocated. He (Mr. Locke) was
not prepared to deny the number of petitions to that ef-
fect, or to deny that the greater number might ba on the
side of the Noble Lord.; but when it was remembered how
easy was the process of getting up petitions—(Hear, hear)
he doubted whether the House would be justified in con-
sidering the greatness of number as a basis for settling such
a question as this—( Hear, hear)—or in accepting such a test
of public opinion. These petitions were not the safest guides
in legislation, and he would remind the Noble Lord and the
House how easy it was, but how dangerous it was, to set in
motion the organized machinery of the conventicle as to the
peculiar mode of Sabbatical ob,ervances in this country.—
(Cheers.) The proceedings of those who once set that ma-
chinery in action was most unjustifiable. They did not he-
sitate to darken the character of all other persons who did
not choose to subscribe to their peculiar tenets, and this
he could prove to the House. During the last session he hed
felt it his duty to call the attention of the House to the sub-
ject of railway communication on Sundays, and he had made
a motion respecting lines of railway not running trains on
that day. At that time the same active machinery was at
work, and he had received several letters on the subject, the
tenor-of which proved to him the mischief that was pro-
duced by such agency. A short extract from one of these he
would read to the House, merely as an instance of the vicious
motives and feelings which actuated men who resorted to
those means for influencing or coercing the opinions and con-
duct of other men, and of the spirit that prevailed on this
question. The Hon. Member then read the following extract
from the letter :—" Although I am not personally acquainted
with you, nor have ever seen you, but as I hear and read in
the papers about you, and see the way you want to disturb
our peaceful land, Scotland—my conscience compels me to
write you against the cursed Bill you want to pass in
Parliament for compelling railways to run 'on Sab-
bath, and to carry second and third class passen-
gers. I will demand of you, and answer me
in Scripture doctrine (if you are able), are you
really thinking that you are greater than your Maker, who
made the whole universe? Are you making a law of your
own to set the holy law of God at defiance? Do 3 ou want to
rob us of the day which God gave us to rest upon and to
keep holy ? Do you want to rob God of the worship that is
due to Him on that day ? Do you want us to become agents
for the devil because you are one? Do you think that
you are a god yourself ? Do you think that you will rule
over us like the Pope of Rome? Do you want to turn the
kingdom of God into a kingdom of devils ? It Seems to me
that you think all these. 0, may God open your eyes and
let you see your error, and make you wise (for indeed you
don't appear to be wise enough when you take anything to
do with the law of God). Don't you hear God crying from
Heaven to you, saying 'O, do not this abominable thing
which I hate?' Now, what is this abominable thing that
God says here? It is your violating his law. Do you think
you are able to contend with God ? You want to force
people front God to serve satan. You want to deprive
them of their resting day, Art thou more just than God?
You are crucifying the Saviour a second time. You want
to rob him of his glory. Have you never read the
book of the law of God ? Knowest thou not that God worked
six days himself, and rested on the seventh day, and he com-
manded his creatures to do the same? not man alone he
commanded thus, but also the beasts of the field that work
for the man. He saw that they would need a day of rest,
and he gave them a seventh portion of time to rest from all
their earthly labours; and he said unto them, 'Remember
the Sabbath day to keep it holy.' It is a day made for man;
it is a day for the worshipping of God particularly; all
worldly employments are to be laid aside that day. When
the Sabbath command was given to the children of Israel,
they were bound to keep it under penalty of death. Your
doings vex my soul greatly, for I entirely disapprove of your
Bill. If you would send a Bill before Parliament to stop all
railways running on Sunday in-Great Britain, then I would
not only be pleased with you, butwould pray God for a bless-
iing on your head ; but since you have acted quite the reverse,
n
trying to establish a carnal law agitinst the spiritual law
of God, my prayer will be for, a curse on your head as
you continue in your evil practices, and on every
kind which n3r
long as- .
one elsNeveethaetl is of the same mind as yourself." That
reading
letter
ter.l He had a sample of the many of the same
of
the had come to him during the year. [The
the Noble Lordpassage was received with much laugh-
voting for the tded to this letter for the purpose of warn-
ingpeculiar doctrine of
promotion
his supporters in these opinions, that
good, and wouldO and practical enforcement of this
ellottical observance could do no pos-
siblehear)—d to show y end in a violent re-action—(Hear
dangerous question towhatPult:)ic men who entered upon this
whom this agitation was carriedlnd of persons they were by
on. The resolution he had
diminution
this House acknow-
ledges in the amount of
to move was as follows :—...1a
ledges with satisfaction the
arrangements in the
Spuons
tel_aoyfalabourc
aenffneectt e
but h
bee ece,,sensiblet
the public incou.
veaience which has arisen from teli: oeutertf(li cessation of any
and that an
jesty, pray-
rticht not
inquiry to
delivery or collection of letters
coliea.
humble address be therefore presented tonheei•Ysil
ing that she will be graciously pleased to cause
be made, whether the amount of Sunday labour
be reduced without c mpletely putting an end to
collec-
tion and delivery of letters, &c., on Sundays; and that,
pend-
ing such inquiry, her Majesty will be graciously pleased togive orders that the collection and delivery of lettere, &c.,
on Sundays, shall be continued as heretofore." In the first
place he mould say that her Majesty's Government had not
received that credit for reducing the amount of labour in the
Post-office on Sundays to which they were justly entitled.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Member for Bath had ad-
mitted, indeed, that great efforts had been made, and
great good had been effected by those exertions, but he felt
strongly that the aggregate amount of good they had done
had not been properly or sufficiently placed before the public
who should become better acquainted with the great reduc-
tions that had been made by the Government in Sunday
Post-office labour. The Hon. Member here quoted extracts
from the report of Mr.. Rowland Hill, in order to show the
great extent of the reduction of labour in,the ononet-order
dep irtment of the Post- office, On this point Mrcll4l said
St ill I was of opinion that with Whatever inconvenience
the improvements might be attended, they would be ac-
cepted by the public if accompanied by another measure

conferring an equivalent advantage, an opinion which, not-
withstanding some complaints, has, on the whole, :been jus-
t i tifi dby the result. Inch a measure, as your Lordship will
remember,-was at that time under consideration, and had
long been regarded ae a desideratum, viz , the transmission
of the forward' letters through London o i .the Sunday,
with a view to their delivery on the Monday morning, a
• measure which I felt confident might be effected, not only
witbcut any addition to Sunday lateens but even, when taken
in all its bearing, with a great reduction thereof. Even in
the London office, on which alone the labour Of such transmis-
sion would fall, I saw reason to bslisve that in the event the
total amount of Sunday labour, so far from being increased,
would be actually diminished by the irnprovemene. I need
not remind your Lordship how fully this anticipation has
been confirmed by experience. . With these views I pre-
pared, under yourlordship's instructions, the minute of the
3d of February, 1849, submitting the combined measures,
of closing the provincial offices throughout England and
Wales on the Sunday, as a general rule, from ten o'clock
to five; of restricting their Sunday deliveries in all
cases to one, and, on the other hand, of providing for
the transmission on the Sunday of the forward' let-
ters through London, so as to be delivered on the Monday."
There was an epitome of the whole report in an able article
in the last number of the Quarterly Review, to -which he
requested the attention of the House. The Honourable
Member then read the following extract:-" On the 7th
of January, 1849, the money order Sunday business was
finally suspended throughout England and Wales, thus
suddenly relieving 450 provincial post-offices; on the Ist of
April, 1849, the suspension of the money eorder. Sunday,
business was extended to Ireland and Scotland, thus re-
lieving 234 additional offices; on the 28th of October., 1849,
the provincial pest. offices-throughout England and Wales
were not only as a general rule closed on Sunday from. ten
o'clock to five, but their deliveries on that day were restricted
to one. By these measures 508 provincial post-offices were
closed for about three additional hours. In 191 post towns,
233 deliveries were discontinued, and 368 letter• carriers re
lieved of one hour and a half each of Sunday duty. On the
29th of December, 1849, in the suburbs of London, beyond
the three-mile circle, the early Sunday delivery was trans-
ferred to a very late delivery on Saturday night, by which
191 persons were entirely relieved from Sunday duty; on the
13th of January, 1850, in the provincial post-offices through-
out England and Wales, further extensive relief was given-
1, by the discontinuance of a large number of Sunday
mails; 2, by the disuse of money pre-payments foi all
inland letters, by which restrictions 576 provincial post
offices and about 4,000 dependent offices were closed on
an average for four additional hours." The effect of the
several measures adopted by the Post-office had been to
relieve every Sunday upwards of 6,000 persons, on an
average, for five hours and a half each.-( Hear, hear.)
Those general reductions were in the act of being 'nee
when the Noble Lord the Member for Bath introduced his
measure to the House, and when the House, forgetting all
that had been done and was being done, stopped the entire
postal service of the country on Sundays, in the expectation
that Sunday labour would be stopped at the same time. He
(Mr. Locke) was strongly of opinion there was no reduction
of Sunday labour. There might be the shifting of labour
from one class of employes to another, but there was no re-
duction in the amount of labour necessary for carrying on the
required communication of the country. -(Hear.) It was
true that letters and newspapers must remain in the Pest-
officer until Monday morning, but arrangements were made
for the employment of persons to deliver newspapers totally
distinct from the Poste office. The railway companies had set
the example of carrying newspapers to every station of the
line, and had them delivered on Sunday. In the great towns
of Liverpool and Manchester, and in other towns, there was
a distinct class of persons organized to deliver newspapers. -
(Hear, hear.) In a letter from Mr. Heywood it was stated
that he was ready to establish boys, like the Post-office, for
the delivery of letters. In a letter from Willmar and Smith,
of Liverpool, they stated that they would deliver newspapers
by their own messengers on the Sunday morning.- (Hear.)
Ile also begged to refer to another communication
from a correspondent in the Times, who stated that he end
his father thr thirty years had been booksellers and news-
paper agents, and that they never had sold any newspapers
on the Sunday. The newspapers were sent to the sub-
scribers, and they visited them for the cash ; but now they
bad to employ several messengers to go about the town and
perform what had been done by four postmen. Then there
were placards posted on the walls stating that newspapers
would be delivered, and there was scarcely a beershop in the
town that was not taking in Sunday newspapers under the
new regime,-(Hear, hear.) Could any one doubt that by
the division of labour it was necessary to employ a larger
amount of persons than were employed when the business
was conducted through one channel? But that was not all.
Those facilities were open only to• the rich.- (Hear, hear.)
The poor man could not get a special messenger or send par-
cels by the railway train.- (Hear, hear.) He begged to read
an extract from the letter of a surgeon, who stated that he
cane- from the country to attend a funeral which was to
have taken place on 'Monday, but on his arrival he found a
letter had been sent to him, stating that the funeral was
postponed to Tuesday. The consequence was, that during
his absence one of his patients died. Ile (Mr. Locke) also
called attention to a letter from the superintendent of a
lunatic institution, stating the difficulties that would arise in
communicating with the relatives of patients under the new
system. He likewise read a letter from a medical gentleman
referring to the hardship which that system would cause to
the poor in cases of sickness, and a letter from Dr. Layccck,
of York, to the same effect.-(Hear, hear.) A letter posted
on Saturday afternoon would not be delivered until the Mon-
day morning following, though the destination was only a
few miles, and that delay would be felt throughout the whole
country.- (Hear, hear.) The morning mails would be only
available to the extent of 200 miles, and the detention of the
delivery beyond that extent must cause selieus inconve-
nience. A vessel sailing from the Thames called at certain
places on the coast, at Dover, Plymouth, and other places, to
receive dispatches, and that vessel might sail on a Sunday,
or a ves'ael from' ull might sail on Sunday, and in such
cases the passengers often availed themselves of the Sunday
night's mail to communicate with their friends, but that ad-
vantage was now taken from them, and it should not be
taken away on light grounds.-( Hear, bear.) Put is the
Noble Lord to limit the application of this measure to the
Post-office ? Why not comprehend other public depart-
ments and private establishments? Why were domestic ser-
vants to be deprived of that rest which wee essential for the
Post-office ?--- (Hear, hear.) Because, if they asserted
that principle in its entirety, the whole country would
see the extent of the mischief, and that it would, in fact,
overturn the whole framework of society.-(Hear, hear.)
How, he asked, were they to rest on the Sabbath, and what
was the rest they were to enjoy? Was it relaxation, or fa-
mily iutercourse, or innocent recreation?-(Hear, hear.) It
was the preparing of the mind for great religious and moral ,
impressions-purifying the heart by the contemplation of
God's works, and resting Irons labour-stirring up in the
mind the precepts of Christian charity and duty, on which a
man may meditate during hours of toil-that was the rest of
christianized and humanized men, and constituted that so t
cf society that made families happy, communities contented,
and-nations free and prosperous. In conclusion he begged
to move the resolution.
Mr. ROEBUCK seconded the resolution, and did so he•
cause he had not had an opportunity of expressing any opi-
nion with respect to the resolution that had been passed by
the House. He took it that those persons who had aided in
passing that resolution had been actuated by one of two
opinions. One opinion was, that the matter was a religious
matter; the other was, that it was one of mere policy and
convenience. When they came to discuss the matter these
opinions crossed one another, and, as the disputants might
happen to be affected, each opinion was employed in refe-
rence to this subject. He would take the liberty to separate
them, and bring them, as far as be could, clearly and defi-
nitely before the House, and would ask the House upon
which of the two, or upon both, they were determined to
rest their decision.-(Hear.) Directly and broadly he
would assert, that as a religions question the House of Com-
mons bad no right to deal with it. He had been told by
those who claimed for themselves the right to express an
opinion to the House that their opinion was that the House
had no right to thrust down the throats of laymen a religious
opinion.-(Hear.) Who would come forward to vindicate
that right? Was it the Dissenters of this country? Were
they, of all other men, to do so, who instructed their repre-
sentatives to Come to that House and say there should be no
State Church, and who asserted also that there should be
perfect freedom of religious opinion?- (Hear.) How could
these very men sign petitions insisting that it was the duty
of the House to enforce what they called the observance of
the Sabbath?- (Hear, hear.) Now he (Mr. Roebuck) de-
nied totally that the Sabbath was known to the Christian
religion.-(Hear, hear.) He spoke it seriously and
grively.-(Hear, hear.) He was not speaking there for the
purpose of exciting any opinion but that of conscientious and
deep concern for the interests of the country, and he asserted
that co far as Great Britain was concerned, this was not a
question within the competence of the House of Commons,
for it was not the Jewish Sabbath they were endeavouring
to enforce, it was the Christian Sunday-a thing very dif-
ferent from the Jewish Sabbath-(Hear, hear)-and none
of the canons against the breach of the Jewish Sabbath
could be properly directed against any act performed on the
Christian Sunday.- (Hear, hear.) If he wanted an autho-
rity, he could go back to the great fathers of the Protestant
Church, beginning with Luther and going on to Calvin and
other authorities of that Church ; and every one of them
said that the Christian Sunday was what the Church called
a feast day-it was not marked by ascetic observances,
it had nothing to do with the Biblical Sabbath, it was a day
of rest, a day set apart for human observances and for hu-
man purposes, and upon human grounds he was to justify
his proof of that assertion.-(Hear, hear.) He did not pre-
tend to argue with any other man respecting his religion-
with that he had nothing to do ; it was a question for him.
and the great Author of his being, he had no desire to inter-
fere with them, and would that the same huMility would
persuade other men to abstain from forcing their opinions
upon others.- (Hear, hear.) The second matter was the
iinst the
b e
political observance of the state; and he came to it with a
full knowledge of the great benefits which mankind derived
from a day of rest. Every man who worked with anything
like seriousness or consecutivness with head or
orhnae aynddm
grateful to an institution that gives him peace
seven. 'No man could more fully understand the value of
such a day than one who belonged to his profession; and if
an observance was established that gave him relaxation. on
the seventh day, he was most humble aria:grateful, for
such means being provided for him.-(Hear, hear.)
But let them understand what that meant. Let it not be
run away with by a word or a name, and let them ask what
they wished to consider as rest.-(Hear, hear.) Rest to the
body and to the mind to the largest number of the commu-
nity to whom it can be afforeed.- (Hear, hear.) How could
it be afforded to the largest number? There were certain
works of absolute necessity, that could not be got rid of;
but necessity was a narrow word.-(Hear, hear.) Then
came:that which mankind might consider not altogether a
matter of need or necessity, but of habits become almost
such. - (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord talked of the work
of postmen on Sunday-that he would discuss presently.-
(Hear, hear.) Where was the difference between the post-
man's work and the labour of the servant, who in the
morning laid with parade their Sunday's breakfast table,
and who prepared the coach to go to church, and
brought it back again for that humble servant of the
Lord who bad ridden to church to pray?-(Hear, hear.)
How many of them who had signed the petitions had
confined themselves to the necessities of the Sabbath?-
(Hear, hear.) What were the necessities of the Sabbath ? A
healthy man required a crust of bread and a glass of water
for his food for twelve hours. Was there any man who con-
fined himself to that?- (Hear, hear.) There is an Hon.
Gentleman opposite who is at the head of a large brewing
aC
sn
ue concern,
3a,
?n-d
(hHe
ewanted
rt. ko)
nwdf,r,ionmg hs
oi
wi
ef
rteh ewe, ema y
NNI.
ot erd o k
er as
(i(noLaahu,ngoilahitt.t: of necessity? It was said that malting required
eight days, and that it was necessary to give the community
good beer, therefore Meux and Co. malt on a Sunday.-
m a
ny
_p
bA:ei
end_dibdofunureitshwererToapnenthinatw, tiechwbaienrtewdastosokkin.o-w
how
)nellceasdsihte not a right to illustrate an argument upon
allusions.
of that
, • works of
jcr House-(An).ot
bersr ot
cal
Aknnorwi° that iN'Ll3el BU
XE andß NCoot Co.
isy,
world ; and that that'
• spoke of things hich touched of course, in that House, but in the
I h
vain hypo
important when it affecte
education
which was called. necessity, when we
ourselves, became much more
The
poor man
interests. But what was a
writing of a letter for a working
man worked bard for six days
lotrhkeofvneeekce.s.silltyis?
was not like that of gentlemen
in that House. The mere