The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-20 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 19.
SCUOOL ESTABLISFINIENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK complimented the Noble
Lord on the very masterly statement which he had just
made, but he said that he had failed to remove the ob-
jection from his mind which he felt against this Bill.
The object of the ancient fathers of the Scottish Refor-
mation had beea to establish a competent source
of education, from which the youth of the country
might receive instruction, and this had always been
the ecclesiastical polity of both the Church and the
Legishtture since that time. The Church had always
held that where there was a church there should also be

a school—they had considered that those who were the
masters of religious instruction should also be the organs
cf secular education to be a handmaid to religion, and it
was to that system that the Scotch people owed the re-
putation which they had always held of being a highly
moral and religious people. Still he was pre-
p fired to allow that one school to each parish,
enjoined by the Legislature, was not sufficient to supply
the wants of the increasing population, but he thought
that the Noble Lord had much overstated his case. He
thought his statistics were entirely erroneous. There
were two other reasons, besides the want of school ac-
coenmodation, that prevented the spread of education iu
Scotland—causes which he thought lay still deeper.
In Scotland befound that there were 600,000 children be-
tween the age of 5 and 15, and he believed that four-fifths of
the children who attended schools iu Scotland were below
ten, and ho wished devoutly that something could be
devised to keep them at school longer, but he thought
the evil was too deep seated. There was no reason to
think that there was any deficiency of desire on
the part of the people of Scotland to hold out pecu-
niary aid to the cause of education in that country;
and he could assure the House that education had in
reality greatly increased in the last few years. He was
not unaware of, the great efforts of the Frea Church of
Scotland in this cause, and he had no wish to underrate
them; but he was afraid that in many cases schools bad
been built ,out of a spirit of rivalry, and a wish to draw
scholies'froui Schools already existing. He quite agreed
with hie N-6lale Priend that schoolmasters in Scotland
were not sufficiently well paid, and he believed that
there would be no objection to a moderate increase in
their salaries throughout the country.—(Elear, hear.)
He thought it would be acknowledged that this. Bill
did not meet with general approbation in Scotland.
When those schools were conducted on such a liberal
principle as to admit the children of every class of per-
sons without offending their conscientious religious
scruples, and when they gave security that religious in-
struction-should be given in those schools from which no
class of persons in Scotland differed, a very strong case
should be made out before the Howse disturbed a
system of education which had hitherto worked
so well. He entirely objected to the principle of the
Noble Lord's Bill, because it proposed to give some reli-
gious education in the schools t ) which no person could
object, or becauseit excluded from the schools the teach-
ing of religion as an essential part of the education given
in them. He .objectectto the main principle of the Noble
Lord's Bill, which principle was to sever the connexion
between the Established Church and the parochial
!chools. That was the main object of the Noble Lord's
.• . . .

Bill;. that was the only portion of the Bill which was
positively. enacted. It put an end to the superintendence
of the Church over those schools. It no longer ren-
dered it necessary that the schoolmaster should be a
member of the Established Church. Ho (Sir George
Clerk) would' say; 'whatever the House did let
them do: in the way of encouragement; the Church
of Scotland looked with no jealousy on the aid
which had been,given to the Free Church or any other
schools in Scotland.. The voluntary principle was work-
ing
.1.!ell at.the present moment in Scotland; large sums
of money were constantly being raised under the in-
fluence. .chat principle by the landed proprietors and
by the 'General Assembly itself. There had been
voluntary collections made in the schciols connected
with the Established. Church amounting to nearly
20,000/.".. .This Bill did'not necessarily provide an addi-
tion 4 school; it did nothing itself to meet any deficiency
whiph,..might eXiSt in the education now given. He
would -entreat the House to leave the question of
parecl4l schools untouChetl. He implored the House,
hortever much they wished to see education ex-
tended in. .Scotland -- and no person could be
more desirous to see it extended than himself—
to leave intact the present excellent system of education
in Scatland 'Which had so long been carried on under its
parochial schools. With those observations he should
move that the Bill be read a second time this day six
months.

Mr. FERGUS supported the second reading of the '
Bill. 'there were matters of detail embodied in the Bill '
which he thoueht might hereafter be corrected in a Com-
mittee of the House; but the principles which he found
in this 'Bill were two; in the first place it instituted a '
popular control over the schools, and in the second
place it repealed all religious testa as a qualification fur
the schoolmaster.—(Hear, bear.) To those principles
he was ready to give his most cordial assent.
He believed they were principles which would
find acceptance among the great body of the people of
Scotland, and wore principles which lay at the root of
all just legislation on this subject. He maintained that
the influence which had been exercised key the clergy of
the Church of Scotland had done nothing of itself for
the parochial schools ; and he thought it was a great
question for the House to consider whether, iu the pre-
sent" position of the Church of Scotland, the House
would give to the clergy of the Established Church ad-
diticinat powers of control over those schools.
Mr.-OSWALD opposed the Bill. He affirmed that
the House was not in possession of that information
Which was absolutely necessary to ei;able it to deal with
so niomentous a question as this. He a-ked the House
if it was prepared to root up the system of education
which John Knox began•in Scotland, which had existed
for many centuries, and which was the pride of their
revolutionary eittlemeut, and throw all that to the eind4,
because, the Noble Lord (Lard Molgund) thought proper
to come down to that House and make a very able
speeeh df one hour? He (lir. Oswald) objected to this
Bill, because 'it enacted a total severance of religion from
the instruction of the
.young ; and he would therefore
support the-amendment of his Hon. Friend (Sir George
Clerk).
Mr, FOX MAULE said the question involved in
this, debate was, whether or no the present system of
e lucation, as. established by law, was adequate to
the ;vents of the people; but, nevertheless, ho felt
it tee be his duty to confine his observations to the
principle of this Bill only. This was not the time for
discussing its details. Now, what was the princi-
ple ?
.The preamble stated that the present means
of education in Scotland were inadequate to the wants of
the people, and that was the point which he now pro
posed to confine himself to. Were the means sufficient
was the 9uestion he felt called upon to decide, and
in answering it he should endeavour to avoid anything
which might' seem like hostility to the parochial
schools of Scotland. Years ago there was but one
system of educatibn in Scotland, and that was regulated
by the Established Church, but in 1811 the people
began to forsake the' Establishment for the Free Church,
and in 1843 that separation was completely effected.
The Established Church was now in the minority, and it
was therefore preposterous to say that any national sys-
tem of education should be under its guidance alone.
Now the Bill was not intended to destroy the parochial
echoola; if it were it would have met with uo support
from him, but the fact was, it was proposed with the
view of reforming these schools. At present a gentleman
could not be a master of one of these schools who was not
connected with the Established Church, a rule which stood
greatly in the way of the education of the people, and one
of the first objects of this Bill was to do away with that
restriction. Its existence- could not prevent the estab•
lishment of free church schools, for within the last few
years there were 730, and one of the objections urged
against these schools was, that they embraced no
plan of religious teaching. He for one denied
t,irat the children in the schools established by the
Chinchee
than those which supplied the parochial schools
with scholars. The fact was the children being edu-
cated in the schools of the Free Church belonged
chiefly to parentis who had seceded from the Established
Church, and in order to increase the usefulness of the
parochial schooli the Legislature must give the people
some control over the were to teach in
them. At all events, unless somethingw
were done in the
.yeas propesed by this Bill, they would
same mariner as
find things growing from beclwlitoiciromrsueltanadriesve.entually
the evils and difficulties
m would.
become almost insurmountable. There was no part of
the kingdom so favourable to a uniform system of edu-
cation as :Wetland, and entertaining that opinionßihne.
should vote for the second reading of this
He saw clearly that unless the House interfered
the abuses of the existing system would get beyond the
limits of a remedy, and he therefore entreated the House
to adopt this Bill;' with the view of having it referred
to the consideration of a Select Committee.
Mr. CUAIAIING BRUCE said it had been the boast
of Scotland that her system of education was closely
connected with religion. It was now proposed to
change that system for a plan which was said
to be now in operation in America. The change was
justified, on the ground that the new systems which
would be altogether disconnected with religion, w
as cal-
culated to make children good citizens. Now, if
were • to judge by the experience which they
they
had
,had of the -plan in America, he did not
believe that it WO any improvement on the
existing system. /wall events, the present system,
had never produced a body of citizens who could arm
such an expedition as that which they had recently
heard of as sailing against Cuba. He did not deny
that there was room efor reform in the present
system, but he would be no part to any
proposal which would have the effect of separating that
system from religion, teed he should therefore vote for
the amendment. • '
Mr. MACGUEGQli,intended to vote for the second
reading of this Bill, but; he should reserve to himself
the right of objecting to some of its details in
Committee. The present system of education had pro-
duced much good in Scotland, and it had been equally
productive in America. With regard to the observation
of the last speaker, that the system had never pro-
duced an expedition like that which had recently de-
scended upon Cuba, he must take leave to remind
that Hon. Gentleman '_hat the expedition did not sail
from
New England, which was the only part of the
States where the Scotch system of education had been
adopted. In point of fact it was fitted out by a stato
that maintained slavery and supported no system of
education whatever.
The House then divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment 100
Against it 94
Majority against the 1311.1 ..• —6
The Bill was accordingly thrown out.
FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.
Mr. BEOCKLEUURST pretested ti petition, learing

above 600 signatures, from a very valuable and large
society of Odd Fellows at Macclesfield, pying for the
introduction of powers in the Friendly Societies Bill, by
which the society at Macclesfield may govern itself by a
majority instead of by three-fourths of its members.
After a large number of petitions had been presented
suggestingin favour of this Bill, and suggesting alterations,
Mr. SOTHERON rose to move that it be read a second
time. The Bill, he said, was one in which the working
classes of this country took a great interest. He did not
think it was generally known that the great mass of the
industrious population of the country was enrolled in
some benefit society or other. There were no less than
14.000 enrolled benefit societies, with 116,000 members.
The societies enrolled and unenrolled numbered no
less than 33,000, with 3,052,000 members, and a
capital amounting to 4,980,0001. Now, by the
last census the number of males above the age of twenty-
one in the United Kingdom was 6,300,000, so that at
least a clear half of that portion of the population were
interested in some way or other in the subject to which
this Bill related. The Bill consisted of two parts : the
latter part related to societies already enrolled. He
did not in any way interfere with the constitution of
these societies. He simply consolidated the law which
had reference to their enrolment. The other part
was entirely a new enactment, which he was very
anxious should receive the serious consideration of
the House. Every branch of her Majesty's subjects
were entitled to the protection of the law ; and
in preparing this new law, he was asking
the House to confer no privilege upon any class, but
simply to do an act of justice. The first part of the Bill,
in fact, only legalised those societies such as the Odd
Fellows, which were now reiused the right of enrol-
ment. The present working of the law was
most unjust, leading as it naturally did to
the committal of fraud, and laying unoffending parties
open to great oppression. He proposed by this Bill to
remedy that state of things, and enable such societies to
be enrolled, and their various branches should be regis-
tered upon the payment of certain moderate fees, which
were specified in the Bill. He proposed to deal
with loan societies in this way. They would be
required to enrol the names of trustees in whom the '
property should be invested, to appoint a register or
secretary and a board of management, which should at
all times be open to the members. He proposed further
that all societies of a friendly character which made
use of signs and ceremonies should be exempted from the
operation of the Corresponding Societies Act so long
as they abstained from using their privileges for politi-
cal purposes. The simple purpose, indeed, of the first
part of the Bill was to give these societies a legal status
in the eye of the law. With regard to burial societies,
be proposed to deal with them in a manner which should
have toe effect of removing some of the evil practices
that sometimes prevailed in those societies. The House
might perhaps ask him what guarantee he could give that
this Bill should not be made use of for the purpose of
shielding bankrupt and improper societies? Well, he
would tell the House how he guarded against
that contingency. He proposed that:every society which
took advantage of this Bill should be bound to make
annual returns to Parliament of their receipts and ex-
penditure, and the number and character of their mem-
bers, and. the purpose to which the fends were
applied. That provision in the Bill, he was confi-
dent, would effectually check fraud or malpractices,
and with that restriction or guarantee he hoped the '1
House would have no hesitation in adopting the first part
of the Bill. Some objections had been taken to some
of the provisions of the Bill, and if the House would
allow the Bill to be read a second time, and go through
Committee pro forma, the principal objections to the
measure might be argued on a future occasion. He
was Ingst anxious to make the Bill as little objec-
tionable as possible. His firm belief was that some
suck measure as the one he proposed was neces-
sary for the benefit of the industrious and well-
conducted members of the community, and their in-
terest and their good was the only object he had in
view in proposing this measure.
Mr. COCKBURN with great satisfaction seconded
the motion for the second reading of the Bill, because he
believed it would have the effect of securing to the
working' classes of the community those savings and
comforts which their prudence had provided for them.
Mr. ROEBUCK thought the measure so impore
cant that the Government ought to take into their own
hands the conduct of this measure, in order to put
an end to all doubt, and to give to the working classes
an assurance that their rights were secure, and that year
after year measures would not be introduced calculated to
throw doubt and difficulty upon the matter. He believed
that the measure of the Hon. Member was founded upon
sound principles, but he, as an individual Member,
could nut do that which the Government had the power
to do. He called upon the Government to take the
measure on their own hands, and thereby assure the
working classes that they would not be deceived.
Mr. P. SCROPE approved generally of the object of
the Bill, but he thought that some assurance should be
made that the tables in which calculations were made
with respect to these societies were correct.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
not consent to the proposal of the lion. and
Learned Member for Sheffield, that the Govern-
ment should take charge of the measure. He
thought it far better that it should proceed from private
Members. He felt that there were many objections to the
measure, but these objections might be remedied in Com-
mittee. He thought it, therefore, but fair and right that
the Bill should be read a second time, as its details
might then be discussed in Committee. -
Mr. SLANEY supported the second reading of the
Bill, and in doing so thanked the Hon. Member who had
brought it forward for the trouble and care ho had taken
in drawing it up and bringing it forward. His only
doubt was whether the 13i11 was sufficiently extensive.
He thought that a summary mode against fraud ought
to be given in the Bill, which he believed would be a
great boon and henefit to the industrious classes of the
country.
Mr. ADDERLEY said the objections to the measure
taken by the Hon. Member opposite were provided for
by the Bill. •
Tte Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Monday next.
BOROUGH BRIDGE BILL.
This Bill was read a second time and ordered to be
committed.