The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-05 00:00:00

NATIONAL EDUCATION.

Lord STANLEY presented a petition from some
place in Monmouthshire complaining of the management
clauses c the minutes of the Committee of Privy Council
on national education. He had no wish to raise a dis-
cussion on that very large subject on the introduction of
thia petition.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was I erfietly pre-
pared to enter upon tl:• discussion, and to lay before
their Lordships a plain statement of facts, which would
have the effect of putting an end to the numerous mis-
rerresentations which had been put forth en the subject
of the conduct of the Committee of Privy Council.
The Bishep c f LONDON wished to avoid any dis-
cussion at the present moment. He considered that he
stood in some degree in the capacity of a moderator, a d
he suggested that the whole subject should be referred
to a Select Committee.

The Archbishop of CANTERBURY acknowledge d
that the Church could not do her duty in providing
for the education cf the people without the assist-
ance of the State, and he acknowledged the libe-
rality of Parliament in affording that assistance, but
he contended that a satisfactory inspection of schools
could be made only by the clergy man of the parish, be-
cause he only was constantly resident.
Lord BROUGHAM said he had been all his life en-
gaged in the attempt to promote popular education,
which, whether regarded in a mural, a religious, or a
political point of view, was a question of paramount
importance; but h• had always found his efforts
thwarted by the conflicting views of the two great
parties interested in the question, namely, the Church of
England on the one band, and the Dissenters on the
other. Nothing, undoubtedly, was more honest than
the good disposition of the Dissenters for the education
of the people ; and equally so, nothing could be more
honest than the gooct disposition of the Church of
England for the same object; but there was always a de-
gree cf perversity in human nature which made them do
nothing good absolutely, but only relatively. All the
zeal of the Dissenters on behrlf of education was over-
gone by a little wish to bliedf.)ld the Church. and, on
the other hand, all the conscientious zeal of the Church
for education was exceeded by a desire to obtain a
victory over the Dissenter?, so that between the two
education fell to the ground and was fettered to the
earth, or nearly so, instead of winging its way through
mid air and mounting to its native skies. It might be
asked why it was not so in Scotland? Because there
the difference was not with regard to doctrine, but
discipline; although he regretted to see that a paltry
question of patronage was producing the same lamentable
effects as the question of doctrine had produced in
England.

The Bishop of CHICHESTER presented a petition
from a large meeting held at WilUs's Rooms, complaining
of the conduct of the Committee of Privy Council on
Education; also, upwards of seven hundred petitions
from various places to the same effect. He hoped the
Government would agree to the suggestion of the
Bishop cf London for a Committee of Inquiry fir the
purpose of ascertaining some mode of reconciling the
ttifferences between the National Society and the
Committee of Privy Council.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said he was always
favourable to inquiry, but he could not agree in the ex-
pectation expressed by the Right Rev. Prelate (Chi-
chester) that it would be attended with the result of
allaying the excitement which prevailed upon the suh-
ject. It might indeed be the means of dissipating some
of the misapprehensions which were entertained on the
subject. The representation made upon this subject,
and the vague charges made against the management,
acted forcibly upon susceptible imagin-stions. The more
vague they were the more difficult to remove or to
allay the alarm which was caused by them. He did not
think any good result would follow from the inquiry,
and, after all, they would have to go to first principles
and consider whether they were prepared to abandon
them. He thought these Isere principles which could
not and ought not to be abandoned.

The Ear! of HARROWBY said he had several peti-
tions on the subject to present. The Government on
this matter had made experiments, but had not pro-
duced any entire plan a manazemebt. New measures
were produced from day to day, and the consequence
was that there was the greatest uncertainty upon the
subjee. He hoped the question would not be allowed
to drop, and if no other person took it up, he would
take an opportunity of calling their Lordships' attention
to it.

Lord BROUGHAM said he did not know that this
subject would be brought forward, and he was in conse-
quence taken by surprise. It was but justice to say
th t this plan was based upon a report of a Committee of
the House of Commons which sat in the years 1816 and
1818, of which he was the chairman. He did not know
whether anything had been done upon it, but it met with
unanimous approval.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said the Right Rev.
Prelate who presented the petition avoided going into
the arguments in support of it. Had he done so he
would have been prepared to go into the whole plan; and
with regard to the facts upon which it was founded,
he was prepared to bring forward evidence to set
them aside. rine parties who signed the petition did
so upon statements which a clergyman of the Church
of England can=e torwrrd aZ, a meeting, to eon-
tradie, but he was not permitted to do so. The
Noble Lord opposite said there was much excitement,
but that was produced by statements which, where reli-
gion and chari'y were concerned, should be far from
misrepresentation of facts. He would, however, sub-
mit two or three facts. It had been stated at the meet-
ing to which he alluded that the Church of England did
not receive its fair share of the fund granted fir educa-
tion, under the dir ,!tion of the Privy Council. The
fact, however, was that it received four fifths of the en-
tile grant —(Hear, hear.) If he ha, I expected any
complaints upon, this point, it would not be from the
Church of England, but from the Dissenters, who did
not receive a share in proportion to their numbers. The
Church of England received an equal portion—fopr-
fifths—for building schools, and in the same proportion
for pupil teachers. It was further stated that not a
single shilling was granted, except upon subscription to
what was called the management clauses; whereas a
great many thousands were granted for books and pupil
masters. It was also stated that there was nothing to
be found throughout the minutes but which shoe e l a
determination to disconnect education from religion;
whereas iu the whole process of examination of the
teachers an acquaintance with the catechism of
the Church of England was required. If the
allegation was true he would have nothing to
do with it, and at once give up any share iu the
management, and, instead of supporiieg it, would vote
for putting a stop to it altogether. There were eight
hundred schools already establish( d through its means.
The scholars were increasing, and received the most sa-
tisfactory accounts of the usefulness of these schools,
which were superintended by clergymen of the Estab-
lished Church. He considered that it was a most effi-
cient mode cf education, and was a vary great contrast
to what had previously existed. A debire lied teen ex-
pressed for a Committee. If a motion was made fn.
that objeet, he would state his opinions; but lie warm d
them of the danger of granting it, as great difficulties
would be found in dealing with the claims of the various
scc'arians who would prefer claims for participation in
a Government grant. Whenever the motion was brought
forward, he would state his views fully upon the subject.
There should be made in the Committee of Inquiry, a
fall statement of the grounds upon which applications
for grants were entertaired, and of the principles upon
which, when made, they were to be distributed.
The conversation then dropped.
The Bishop of LONDON presented two petitions from
places, thenames of which were inaudible, praying for an
inquiry into the distribution of the funds dispensed by
the Committee of Privy Council on Education.
The Earl of HARROWBY then presented several
petitions to the same effect.
Earl POWIS presented a petition from the clergy cf
Ripon praeing f)r an alteration in the law with regard
to matters of appeal on points of doctrine in the Church
of England.
PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND) BILL

Their Lordships then went into Committee on this
Bill.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he rose to
objec':, to the principle of the Bill. He was so unfortu-
nate as to be in • different part of the country on the day
on wi-•ich the Noble Lord opposito moved the second
reading of the Bill, and, coneequently, he had. not then
an opportunity cf stating his oblectlons. His opinion
was that the Bill did not go far enough. As it stood at
presee' it would not put an end to the state of disturb-
ance in Irelard, which it was the intention of Govern-
ment to put en end to. Besides the disturbances like
those at Dolly's Brae, there were other disturbances
which had taken place which would not be prevented
by the state of the law es provided for. by this Bill. It
was well known that Catholics were in the habit of
burying the dead with great formality, which it was the
common practice of other parties to interrupt, and this
practice cicen led to disturbances really as fatal as
any of those disturbances caused by procession.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not see why the Legislature
should not at once prevent persons in Ireland
from appearing abroadin arms.—(Cheers.) For what
reason should the peasantry of that country be allowed
the privilege of appearing abroad in arms when that pri-
vilege did not exist in any other part of the civilized
world?—(Hear.) Why should these parties be allowed
to appear in arm!, except for :opportunities of amuse-
ment,
ment, and if carried for that purpose why should they
not be made to produce game certificates, and be called
upon to account for the possession of arms? He thought
that the local magistrates, by means of the constabulary
et their disposal, ought to protect these parties from
being attacked by others who came there in arms.—
',Hear, hear.) He hoped a clause would be inserted in
this Bill to enable the justices of the peace to disperse
any meetings where parties were carrying arms, and to
deprive those individuals cf their arms who should ap-
pear on those occasions either in procession or attacking
funeral processions with arms in their bands. He gave
'notice that on the third reading he would propose a
clause to prevent any person appearing in arms in Ire-
land out of his own house, unless for the purpose of
amusement or field sports, as in this country.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that as the
,r,).
of the Bill referred only to party processions, he
think it expedient to convert it into an arms Bill, "1 us
he was not prepared to say might not be necessary on
future occasion, when the suggestions of the Noble eke
would meet with the consideration which so important
subject deserved.
Lord MONTEAGLE said he thought the GOVfr
ment would not be doing their duty if they were no.
pr epark d to enter into the important subject of tte !T
ioen
sf:4,sion of arms by the Irish peasantry.' The p besi
ossess
arms by these parties was inconsistent with the
of
selves. That had been asserted both by
interests of their country, and of the peasantry them,
The Predr
the Liberal party and Catholic
clergymen.
sition he would make was very simple. The 2%ct
elisred that if the procession did not disperse when t(i©
Wet Act was read, the arms should be forfeited. Iles
thought the forfeiture should apply whether the
dispersed or not. He would leave the suggestion in
hands of the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of
in
deans), believing that were this suggestion crabodisa. _
the leaders et
an amendment by the Government the Bill would re
much more perfect.subject
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought that the l
was worthy f consideration, bet feared that there Ivor' ,
be cerlsiderable dificulty in carrying it out in Pr2ctiejd
as in many cases the levies carrying the arms weetd
be much more numerous than the constabulary Mel
to them
Lord. STANLEY said he thought that if
could be attained of preventing the carrying Drug if
public without any necessity, it would be a heer".,,d
the object
ereat importance to the country. He could underi",e
the difficulty suggested by the Noble Marquis oPresl'it
(Lansdowne) with respect to the title of the Bill,nesuk,
regarded the amendment proposed by the Noble ld
(Wellington), but he thought the same objection
Noble
not hold against the suggested amendment by the 14,°;,,g
Lord, for although there might be a difficulty in se.l""tv
the arms at first, the parties might be sub: eqt.et,
identified and deprived of their arms. A be
The Bill thea passed throuh Committee, and th
House resumed, when the report was ordered to the
brought up on Thursday.
The Eeclesiss Veal Commission Bill was read a third
time and passed.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 4.
IRISH REGISTRATION BILL.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
the
Mr. ANSTEY :aid it should be remembered that ~,e
qualification given by that Bill was one of occolirria.
and not one of teaanc. He thought that the Ise' la be
quiring that the party claiming the franchise she°
rated to the amount of 81. would be a sufficient Pe'
don against abuse. Nat
Mr. SHEIL said that at present there existed s g.eat
evil in Ireland connected with the system of fictiti
could
votes. That evil was, that a landed proprietor
Lews,
grant nominal annuities to five or six sons or nePh° ago
who were entitled to be placed on the registry, n; bough
they derived no real benefit from the land, and although
they occupied no portion of it. That was a rel,r's ing
evil for which there existed no remedy. NOW, IW—‘l
US°
it was possible that abuses might arise under that c
• eae to Os' •
—and he knew no system which was not ha their
—there would at all events be two checks gall!" f the
occurrence; one of these checks was that each of the
of
parties should be rated; and tee other was that 1
lel
them should occupy. But, on the other band, oat
were to deny the right of voting to joint occupiers in
b
injustice would to done to many of the trades': ches
towns.— [An Hoer. MEMBER on the oppoEite %tea
here observed that that portion of the tbo
to the county franchise only.l He was awarewere
it related to the county franchise only. But then lei,
many large towns in Ireland which returned no votes
hers, and whose inhabitants had very properlY„,heral
for the county representatives. The towns of .I:taots
and of Carrick, fur instance, had each 12,000 /nits° and
and returned no Members. Now, in these towoB'
eeers-
in all others similarly circumstanced, there were 5d- were
joint occupiers care) ing on trade together ; • of the
those men, he would ask, to be wholly deprive clause
franchise? He did not deny that under Oil weals
some abuse might arise frem the creation of 1:could
votes, but he believed that preponderance of ovii•„ti 016
he found to lie in its rejection. He would rer°l"l, rd
n ° •
Noble Lord the Member for the coutity_D° own°
Cast'erengh) that the more the number or co Carry
was extended the more difficult a ould it be to ca 0- for
Candidate's ill.
election by means of fictitious votes.
seats in that House would then have to fish,with net
stead of fishing with lines.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL supported the
Mr. SADLEIR said he believed the Noble Lord
see._
Member for the county of Down clause. d the
was owe' which
as to the increase in the number c f Irish voter' Nobly
that Bill would produce. He could assure tee °t
Lord that in attempting to arrive at a corresid be
elusion upon that ,point no reliance c°sseated
placed on the returns which bad been Pre which
to the House. In the borough of Carlow, he CO'
he had the honour to represent, the number af„' in the
stituents had a short time ago amounted to 471;d boae
l
alphabetical list furnished to the House they 11, dir
calculated at 445; but he had ascertained that 5°,--breee,e7
persons narne.l in that list were put down,tw,°' 'eaeroe"e'
even tour times, others had died, and others bad e—eaeouga
entitled to vote was only 235.
and that the actual number ofpersons in the the" Paine
to ascertain what would be the number of yet' tiets pre'
borough of Carlow if that Bill were to Pass tilt:, 101°S
sent shape, and he found that • 1 at "'"
they ;sou
amount to only 300. in the
Sir R. PEEL said he was disposed to concur ,iorter.
He had taken ill th
opinion of the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) at sif
before five o'clock in favour of the omission v tore
clause— (Hear, bear). He was one of those wl3° bad a°
in favour of an extensive franchise; and if beieg, be
opportunity of giving his vote the other e'r, tras
should have voted for an 81. franchise instead e'er a t
chise of 151. But at the tarns ;time be 'ls. ',gold
aiwous in giving that extensive franchise tin t" , a:
a bona fide one—(Hear, bear). He beliei•'„ of tae
'
should by that means be fulfilling tae intend(); far
legislator. ; but, above all he should attensPt tit area'i
possible to discourage that abominable systeo3 of et
mg fictitious votes—Hear, hear), to the Prev.b3utedra
which system, under( the 40e. freeholds, he aqia 0011
only much of the laxity and corruption whie" any of
in respect to elections in Ireland, but also °;°""ife
ts
—that was to say, that if three
social evils of that country. (Hear, hear.), t teneraa
willing to admit that if there were bona fide P`ea,tance'
or lbeo
that rent, he was Killing
took a farm and paid 601. of rent, and if each el tvueeet
equally responsible to the landlord for th° Pe" sse &
ut' those tenants should be entitled to vote. ge wecarrYiag
also to admit, that if a number of partners were d if 01.
on a manufacturing establishment tegether, 5,13,f
of them contributed bona fide a certain amount of fray.
chise. But he should confess that
to admit that, in that %wining.
to the concern, they were all fairly entitled te,_,aelea
he opreaeaeupire
great deal of abuse from giving to each joindenaerabile
well:, might be rated a right to vet . Whl"nro Dot bled
Gentlemen argued that question, they COIL aelln"aeo
talking of each tenant.—(l-Ica,-, hear.) a'aly resPat'
that each bona fide joint-tenant, who aas e T111„1 • is
sible with others for the rent, ought list u° -se Is" tie
place his name on the registry. 'fast sans eoingey
England and in Scotland. But they wcre pc "'ley; '"
impose the restriction of tenancy or of joint-tenteatioci)e't
used the word occupancy as distinguished frella salirce;
although in their speeches they could not he b-1
that
tenancy. It was laid that the OsYrnee°t..o in ttPut
would be a sufficieat gainst au°'o,ooo"s,
matter. But that he ger atterdoubted. The_ ytrY et'
rates payable on an 8/. a ing would not bee lanalorti;
siderable. It might be for the interest cf ef to
Abir o.'ll
particularly on the approach of an eked,'
tr
ee common i
"P`rn, l'irnFalf the plement of the tsnart's rs ;lila'
vi ()nil amount 4." s Thl ets ay,
lot system of
eg.o_ne
piat,ol.l
standweatePt,
toaPOY,
the whole of the arre3rs of rating due "e -abt, t"-rto
tVlCpvtaisr fgs:')Prtsoa tcpoaanysdsi;ula(p)rt,entolti;lo.(:lt thoenae:retalt;:t;bitit:
fore
to qualify him to vote. He hail 110 u°,oifing
moureltypillyaftihneiliir aenlyeeCtiaosneeseirVigl eland landlords Cleit4 't
eld 1-1° II as '
ttoe
epnays t
ot ho
de
ar a lee .n d
neb eilgi ebvte dsien'sytt he interest
accept your SODS as tenants; I shall undoresecele Jo in
your rates; but I shall require that You f vorUltice
o „lac t
occupiers, in order to increase the nuraber bat real
my favour."
All he said wee, that if t eag to
could be esaablished thewould introdue alorda •
y len A pre
abuse and would
give encouragement to . had
../Js
resort to practices similar to those whlde freellythe
veiled under the 408. freeholds in Ire,lirialt frunric
good in the eyes of the law, but as ,dinereete fca e to
40s. freeholds of England it floss's- his'
as was he floc roe
franchises to be. lie was rcady to give,' wotd trfebe
joint tenants, but as " occupancy" ass tile awe „la
let the awl 00
could not approve of the clause.
should be ready to listen to any proposal "'ailed iOO
fairly exl r
extend the franchise to all parties a a
I, cone] hoar
But as then advised, he should come to 1' ut an
at which the Noble Lord had arrived ab°,ision. tb
before,
and oppos.e the adoption of that Pro inept 0,10 of
Mr. REYNOLDS thought that the 11,a create
rates gave a sufficient
protection a
oti°ll
fictitious votes.
call e sttge eto°
Mr. HENLEY said he wished to cal' th 3 thee or
the Committee to the effect of the clause as 1 of g
r occ
+he boa . •ut
on the power of rating possessed by per'
diens. Let hlro suppose that there Were 130, teOloca
pints whose property was rated at She's 'owes Pejo.
sons would all be entitled to have a of lie 004
upon the registry; but if, at the 4)10°,1' e the 0 do.
tion, the board of guardians should reaseeid 0,11 be die.
of
of their rating by a single pound, they vi.oo the 00;
auchised. Why that was throwing
A blood C,°,l)Wotild
guardians a temptation which flesh AU" _for J. doll.'
ithstand—(lli ar, hear, and jaughter)s out of rood.
always be easy to state that the House wise re 'ha'
or that the value of the property was otliieorawitteehotpe
Then, again, he would remind the 'lwo 10a 001
under that Bill a person occupying as have Luiotes
might claim to be rated, and rnigin
fi titi°h° titi°ll.
placed on the registry. Why , the -c the -c )
ble be'r.
rent-charges were in no way corapara /gear, ,01.--•
votes which that system would create•--a
The Committee then divided when there areoe
••• 104
For the clause • a• •••
.• AU „ell.
Against it ... ••• ••• --- he PI
aorik y for e clause ••• of tder esion
The clausecruse was thenth ordered to stand Ps i
cooS it eJ
The Committee then proceeded to tuearsooe elyaltie
of the third clause, which provides that Pee rate
sea
to estates in fee, or in toil, or f,r life, of to failo
of 51., should have votes for 'counties. of she 10
Sir F. THESIGER moved the additione
clan nil
ote
ing words at the commencement of th istae 6044
addition to those qualified by law to rege vivtrle oir
at any election of a knight of the shire, fj'e 00Tjaa-
qualification not requiting occupation. dee
to 13 ad
ject in moving that amendment was .oiiisr
guage of the Bill more complete. A. 131
had been made to the first ciao%