The Sun.
London, England, 1850-08-14 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

ROUSE OF LORDS, August 13.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at Five o'clock.
Lord BEAUMONT presented several petitions in
favour of tlie Friendly Societies Bill from different parts
of the country.
PORTLAND HARBOUR AND BREAKWATER

BILL.
This Bill was read a third time and passed, after the
introduction of some amendments.
LONDON-BRIDGE APPROACHES BILL.

This Bill was read a second time; and,
On the motion of the Earl of CARLISLE, the
standing orders were suspended, when the Bill was
committed, read a third time, and passed.
BOARD OF HEALTH (No. 3) BILL.
This Bill went through Committee.
LIVERPOOL WATERWORKS BILL.

On the motion of Lord MONTEAGLE, Charles
Gream, of 23, Temple-street, Liverpool, and Michael
Alexander Gage, were called to the bar of the House.
They were accordingly brought up.
The NOBLE LOAD then proceeded to detail to their
Lordships the circumstances under which these gentlemen
had been summoned before their Lordships. It appeared
that a sham petition bad been got up in Liverpool against
the Liverpool Water Works Bill, and the fraud having been
discovered by the Committee on the Bill, the Chairman
brought the matter under the attention of their Lord-
ships, and, ultimately, the men who got up the petition,
and forged, or wrote, the names to it, were summoned to
the bar of the House, and after undergoing a term of
imprisonment, they were again brought to the bar, and
discharged with a reprimand. In the course of the
examination of these parties it transpired that the
two gentlemen now at the bar had been instrumental
in employing them to get up the fraudulent pe-
tition:, and hence they were summoned to-day to give
some explanation of their conduct and proceedings.
Those parties went round the separate houses, but, find-
ing that that was somewhat troublesome, they repaired
to a public-house and wrote down the names of hun-
dreds of imaginary persans, with imaginary descriptions,
to the petition. The extent to which that had been carried
appeared on the evidence, which showed that between
900 and 1,000 signatures appended to the petition were
entirely fraudulent. One witness said he could speak to
about 1,500 being fictitious names. A person named
Brennan, a law stationer's writer, at Liverpool,
said he had been present when the parties were
in a public-house and engaged in writing the names
of imaginary persons to the petition as quick as they
could write them. In one case they had made a mark
to the name of a man whom they described as a student.
—(A laugh.) Their Lordship had had before them the
mere agents in this nefarious practice, who were paid
their ss. or 6s. a day for obtaining signatures; but the
object of the second Committee was to discover,
if possible, the parties who employed those men.
The particular offence which it behoved their Lord-
ship to punish was, that after it came to the knowledge
of the parties that the frauds and forgeries had been
committed, they instituted no inquiry respecting
them, but, on the contrary, employed counsel
to defeat the investigation which had been set
oh foot by their Lordships' House. The Noble Lord
concluded by moving that the parties at the bar bad been
guilty of a gross abuse of the privileges of the House.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said there could
be no doubt that the subject was one of very
great importance. It appeared to the Committee that a
fraud and forgery had been committed, and that a peti-
tion had been wilfully presented to the House with a
great number of fictitious signatures attached to it. If
the circureetance was allowed to pass over without
notice, neither their Lordships nor the public would
have any security with regard to the petitions which
were presented to the House. He did not think, how-
ever, tilet the punishment awarded by their Lord-
ships should fall on the humble persons who
had been made instruments in the hands of others.
I; was under these';eircurnstances thet the parties were
before their Lordships, and it was for their Lordships
to say what steps should now be taken to prevent such
malpractice in future.
Lord BEAUMONT said the Noble and Learned
Lord had given a correct history of the
whole proceedings, and he would confine his
observations to this simple remark, that the steps they
now took should be clear, distinct, and decisive. He
hoped the lesson to be given on this occasion would be
the means of inducing parties to he mere cautious
in the petitions which they laid upon their Lordships'
table'. He apprehended that there was now only one
course open to them, and that was to punish the parties.
The parties were then ordered to withdraw.
Two resolutions were then passel, declaring they had
been guilty of a gross violation cf the privileges of the
House.

Lord MONTEAGLE then moved that the parties be
taken into custody.
Lord CAMPBELL suggested that they ought to be
committed for a specific period.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said before they did
that they ought to call the parties in and hear if they
had anything to say.
The parties were then called in.
The LORD CHARCELLOR then informed them of
what had transpired in their absence.
Mr. Charles Gream said he wished to be heard by
counsel, and hare witnesses examined in his favour. He
was innocent of the charge which had been made against
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, after the resolu-
tion of the House that application could not be granted.
What Mr. Gream had to say must now be urged in mi-
tictation of the !sentence.
Gream then proceeded to declare that he had been
no party to the fraud. The parties who were guilty of
that fraud were hew-writers, and he and those with
whom he acted, who were the promoters of the petition,
had felt that they: were proper parties to employ in
soliciting signatures to tae petition. The parish
meeting to which reference had been made
had nothing whatever to do with the petition ;
it was merely galled to consider out of what
fund the expenses of the opposition to the Bill were to
be defrayed. He admitted that he had told the men
that they might put the names of ratepayers
to the petition, provided they had the authority
of these ratepayers so to do, but only on such authority
being given to them. He contended that the evidence
of the man Planche was not worthy of credit. He
would state a small circumstance with respect
to him ; in giving an account of his expenses
in coming to attend the Select Committee of Inquiry,
he actually told a falsehood fur the sake of
4a. Gil. in misrepresenting his fare on the rail-
way from Liverpool to London. He (Mr. Gream,)
felt that in this matter he had been actuated by only fair
and upright motives, and with riot the slightest intention
to deceive their Lordships. Ae he hoped to stand before a
higher tribunal than that, he declared his innocence, and
that in presenting the petition in question to the House
he thought be was presenting a petition to their Lord-
ships' House which could not be challenged.
The , LORD CHANCELLOR—MichaeI Alexander
Gate, hare you anything to urge in extenuation or ex-
planation to the House?
Mr. Gage replied in the affirmative, and proceeded to
vindicate himself and the committee over which he had
presided as chairman. The principal charge which had
been brought against them was that they did not take
sufficient pains to inform themselves of toe genuineness
of the signatures attached to the petition. But the fact
was, that in consequence of the second reading of the
Bill having been fixed for a eery early day in their
Lordship; House, there were but two days to get up
the petition, and the Committee had not time minutely
to investigate the character of a number of signatures
whieh amounted to upwards of 18,000. fie then read
copious extracts from the evidence he had given before
the Select Committee, for the purpose of exculpating
himself from the charge of having participated in the
fraud, by showing that he had given instructions to the
parties entrusted with the duty of obtaining signatures
for the purpose of securing bona fide signatures only.
He maintained that he had beers not only ceutions but
ovetecautious. He complained that there had been an
unjust bearing against him and others, and was about to
refer to a speech of Lord Beaumont, as reported in the
Times.
The LORD CHANCELLOR told him he could not
refer to anything in the newspapers that purported to be
an account of what had been said in that House.
Mr. Gage said he would then refer to the evidence,
and was understood to cite answers given by himself ex-
plaining his conduct. He said that when it was heard
that their petition was impugned, they determined to
wait patiently, as they were sure that justice would be
done by their Lordships. They had abundance of wit-
nesses co answer the charge if it had been their Lord-
ships wish to hear them; and they did not desire to tres-
pass on their Lordships' time. It was his conviction
that this was a deep-laid conspiracy for the purpose of
defeatihg justice; and he hoped they would yet bring to
light the authors #f this iniquity. As to imposing upon
their Lordships House it was the farthest from his
thoughts; for he ventured to say there was not a man in
her Majesty's dominions who
ure t had
han a dhieeper veneration
fur this branch of the Legislatmself.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that it was his be-
lief that persona in the situation of lite of those who now
stood at that bar—that persons like those must suffer
severely from falling under their Lordships' displeasnre.
They were considered by their .Lordships to interfere
with the right of petition, and he must say that he was
not aware of the abuse ever being carried to a greater
extent; and he was convinced that the persons who did
this were fully conscious of what they were doing by the
cautions they gave when this was attempted—than they
were anxious that the persons they employed should be
cautious in what they did so as to escape detection.
Thus the caution was given to be a protection to the
authors of what was attempted in case it should after-
wards be discovered. If their Lordships had dealt out
punishment to those by whom the mischief had been
effected they could not spare those who were the authors
of that mi ;chief. They must award such amount of
puni:,.hment as would vindicate the authority of their
Lordships, and secure the right of petition. This
they would ch, although their disposition was
to be ill lenient as their public duty would
enable them to be. The heaviest portion of the
punishment for the persons who had stood at the bar
would be, on men of their station in society—an attor-
ney and an engineer—would be that which they would
suffer whea tie, punishment imposed by their Lordships
had terminated. An attorney censured by their Lord-
ships would find that his reputation was injured, and the
suffering, therefore, inflicted upon him would be of a
serious nature. The other, an engineer, must in the
course of his duty have to appear before the Houses of
Parliament, and what now occurred could not but be
brought forward to his discredit whenever he was exa-
mined. They had thus brought upon themselves a pu-
nishment that would be severe, and that he was sure
would be a consideration with their Lordship in what-
ever punishment they did inflict. With regard to these

THE

two individuals, he must say that, having heard their
statements, be was unable to extract the slightest excuse,
or explanation of what they had done. In these cir-
cumstances, he was under the painful necessit of mov-
ing that each be committed to custody for one fo;-tnight,
He then moved that Charles Gream and Michael Al, x-
ander Gage be committed to the custody of the black
rod, and to be by him transmitted to the gaol of New-
gate, and there imprisoned for one fortnight.
The motion Vii4S agreed to unanimously.
Mr. Gream and Mr. Gage were then removed in
custody.
RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION—IRELAND.

The Earl of RODEN had, he said, to propose a ques-
tion to the Noble Marquis of which he had given notice,
and with respect to which he was anxious to elicit an
answer from the Noble Marquis. He was about to pro-
pose that question in no hostile spirit, for he was the
last person in that House who would propose to place
any embarrassment in the way of those ssho now pre-
sided over the affairs of Ireland. Having passed a long
life in the sister kingdom, and having mixed with all
classes of society in that country, he believed he was
well acquainted with the opinions of his countrymen, and
had received from them—he might say from all of them
—marks of great kindness, and, therefore, was most
anxious upon any subject in which they were interested,
He wished he could say that it was his opinion that
any amelioration had taken place in the situation of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) When they came to look back
at the circumstances that had taken place in that part
of Ireland—when they came to reflect upon all the
scenes of blood that had taken place, and that had
occurred month after month—then ha said they had
no reason to suppose that any change for the better had
taken place either in the social or moral condition of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) And here he must beg leave to
say that he did not think that any change, such as they
must all desire, could be effected so long as the system
of national education was deemed to be the right one,
and the only system to be supported by the Government.
—(Hear, hear.) He could not help thinking that to
deny the Holy Scriptures to the people, which was part
of the present system of education, and to refuse to give
any part of the public funds to a scriptural education,
was doing that which must leave the people in a state of
ignorance and misery such as they were known to be.
He referred to these facts because they had much to do
with this question.—(Hear, hear.) The unhappy events
that had occurred—the murders of individuals which
had been alluded to, and which they must all deplore,
could not but engage the anxious attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government.—(Hear, hear.) He now begged to
state some facts to their Lordships. Some years ago,
in many parts of the south and west of Ireland, a large
portion of the Roman Catholic inhabitants bad left the
Church of Rome and gone to the Church of England;
he alluded particularly to the district of Dingle, in
Kerry, and to a place (as we understood) in the county
of Limerick. A short time since—about a year ago—
very serious affrays had taken place between the two
parties; and now he had to state the tyrannical course
that had been pursued, not only against poor indivi-
duals who from conviction had joined the Church of
England, but also against the Protestant minister who
administered to those individuals.—(Hear.) The first
statement be had to make was with regard to Dingle.
The clergyman who superintended that flock had left the
Church of Rome. He was a man of excellent character,
and died about a year and a half ago. He was succeeded
by the Rev. Mr. Lewis, a gentleman, it was to be ob-
served, who had nothing to do with bringing individuals
from the Church of 11,,me to the Church of England.
This gentleman for the last year had been subjected to
most tyrannical proceedings. He begged leave to read
an account of those proceedings, as sworn to in a court of
justice, in a trial that took place at the last assizes, and
before that eminent judge the Lord Chief Justice Black-
burne. Mr. Lewis's statement was, that on his
return in October last, he found that both the parish
priests had died, and the Roman Catholic bishop
bad selected as their successors three priests that
had already distinguished themselves by their
persecution of those who had exercised their right
in changing their religion. These persons had
intimated 'their intention to give him a warm reception.
—Clear, hear.) Mr. Lewis had directed employment to
be given to all persons without distinction.—(Hear,
hear.) He further stated that these violent and riotous
proceedings had been sworn to in open court at the
Dingle sessions by the most unimpeachable witnesses;
that it was proved that he had been followed by a riot-
ous mob of upwards of 300 persons, who pursued him as
it' he were a mad dog; that the persecution had con-
tinued for the last four months, and that his servant had
been so terried by this violence as to be thrown into a
fever, which resulted in the loss of his reason. When
he (the Earl of Roden) heard in Dublin of these pro-
ceedings, he thought that the facts connected with them
had been overstated. He accordingly sent down a
friend to Dingle, to ascertain by personal inspection what
the real state of the case was. The answer which he
received from this gentleman corroborated to the letter
what had been stated, and in addition said that the mob
had been gradually increasing in number, and that by
their groaning and hissing they had frequently succeeded
in putting a stop to the service in the church—that the
police had looked on at this outrageous behaviour on
the part of the mob without attempting to interfere or
to arrest the rioters. How different (observed the
Noble Earl) was the conduct of the Protestants of the
north to their dissenting brethren. The only offence
committed by this gentleman was that ho was a Protes-
tant minister ; for, as to his great benevolence and
Christian-like temper, he had before him the strongest
evidence to show that the Rev. Gentleman was charac-
terised by both.—(Here the Noble Earl read letters
from two eminent lawyers in testimony of that fact.) It
appeared that in March or April last, upon a Sunday,
while this clergyman was engaged in the performance
of his duties, he was interrupted by the most violent
yells and hootinas from the mob that had assembled
round his church': He sent a policeman out to arrest
some of these disorderly persons; two persons were ac-
cordingly arrested, and were tried before Chief Justice
Blackbarne. They were found guilty ; the Chief Jus-
tice sentenced them to six months' imprisonment, ob-
servins, that their crime was a serious one, but would
have been much more serious, only that the Rev. Mr.
Lewis had acted with great leniency by charging them
with the minor offence of conspiracy instead of that of
interrupting Divine worship, which would render
them liable to transportation.—(Hear, hear.) There
was a similar state of things, at Croom, where the
Protestant clergyman was assailed by a ruffianly
mob in a like manner. Application was made to the
Irish Government on the subject, to which no attention
was paid. Another application was made in a few days
aftewards, when Sir Thomas Redington wrote to say
that instructions had been given to the police to arrest
all persons that were found guilty of violating the law,
and that one person bad been arrested for taking part in
the proceedings referred to. Since then there had been
no petty sessions, for the magistrates had failed to attend.
Now (said the Earl of Roden) we know that a great
many persons had left the Protestant Church and had
j,lned the Roman Catholic Church, but we never knew
them to be assailed by Protestants in the manner de-
scribed. , If ho did not believe the facts to be exactly as
he had stated he would never have brought the case for-
ward. lie thought that the Government ought to send
stipendiary magistrates to the neighbourhood of Dingle.
He wished to ask whether these circumstances, to which
he had referred, had been brought under the considera-
tion of the Government, and whether they had taken
any means to preserve the public peace—to protect their
Protestant ministers from such violence and insult, and
thereby to secure the maintenance of that civil anti
religious liberty which was the right of every British
subject?

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought that the sub-
ject referred to by the Noble Earl was one of a serious and
important character, involving as it did much religious
dissension amongst her Majesty's subjects, and produc-
ing a feeling of irritation extending from the highest to
the lowest members of the community. There was no-
thing that the Government could do that it had not done,
and would not do, to put down such a state of things.
But the origin of these unfortunate cccurrences was to
be found in the conduct of certain parties, who, though
no doubt actuated by a pious zeal and by motives just in
themselves, yet their conduct partook of what was called
an aggressive character. These persons, it appeared,
had introduced religious discussions into places where
the great majority of the people were of a totally dif-
ferent persuasion. These discussions and appeals, ad-
dressed to the whole people, had the effect of provoking
a demeanour on the part of the people which it was itn-
possible to justify. It was, however, found to be almost
impossible to put an end to dissensions that extended
throughout the whole body of the population. There
were many annoyances experienced by Protestant clergy-
men, not only in Dingle and Crootn, but in many other
places in Ireland where a system of proselytism was still
carried on. It had been alleged that this system had
been carried on in a form that ooked like mete of bribery
—namely, administering food and clothing to poor crea-
tures on condition that they would become) Protestants.
Such a system was highly improper and extremely well
calculated to excite irritation, more especially at a time of
extreme suffering and privation. Bat he did not rise to
justify these proceedings complained of. On the con-
trary, he could assure the Noble Earl that the Govern-
meat, and Lord Clarendon particularly, had made every
effort to pet a stop to them. And if there had been any
reluctance to arrest individuals in all these cases, that
reluctance was accounted for, on the part of the stipen-
diary magistrates and the police, by the fact of the ex-
istence of a great deal of excitement, which would have
believed that the mostthe
eexffeercetinsaelowf agyreoaft
tyreblel
been greatly aggravated by such an interference. He
ainrganctleeeosne
disturbances was by
the part of these clergymen as well as by the authori-
ties. The magistrates were, however, bound to admi-
nister justice to all parties. They had, however, con-
vincing evidence that the magistrates were not capable
of meeting all the evils that grew up around them. He
had no dHubt but that the reverend gentlemen alluded to
by the Noble Earl were of high and irreproachable
character, but it was stated that they had in their em-
ployment persons of a most immoral character, and who
the irritationrr his eir
cir-
cumstance sverynce Oibt nwo
axsi osual o
eh
ne t people
igneenreearasell),.
that sxiste'd. He wished the Noble Earl to be assured
of this fact, that 11',‘r Majesty's Governments and the
Lord-Lieutenant were by no means indifferent to this
matter, and if the Noble Eirl would move for the pro-
duction of such extracts from the police reports as bore
upon this subject, he would have no objection to laying
them on the table of the douse.

Lord REDESDALE said it appeared to him that the
magistrates and police took a totally different view of
their duty in Ireland to what they did in England.
Why did not the polic3 arrest a few of the leaders of the
mob in all these cases, and have them summarily con-
victed ? If they had done so, there was very little doubt
but the matter would have been soon put an end to.
The Earl of RODEN having moved for the production
of the papers suggested by the Marquis of Lansdowne,
The Bish:qa of CIIICHESTER wished to have the
opinion of the Lord Chancellor as to whether the per-
sons thus assembled were guilty of a raisdernmour?