The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

Manchester with respect to the Clifden unions. The
alni. Member had stated that landlords were in arrears,
lkthat they had reuse i a fair rate. He was not
al allowed
to
give the name of his correspondent, but he
sd
(Theehimself to prove the truth of his statements.
lionoarat,le Member read the letter, from which it
appeared that the three principal estates in the Cats de
anion were in the Court of Chancery—that previous to
flip f
the district was in a state of great prosperity
ra.nd Progressive improvement, but that ever since that
;e m
Pauperism, disen-:e and emigration had ravaged it.
/;1 1848 a proprietor had offered Mr. Tesistleton, the
4r De,_ow Commissioner, 1,0001. of growing grass for the
il'e 4 which were due upon it, amounting to 400 L, but
eY were refused, and the consequence was that the
iityaansclitionacl. ever since been lying q
waste. The wrkhouse
Some of the best mansions of the proprietors
had been converted into auxili try workhouses, and others
tier'? shut uP, though they belonged to families who had
iorrnerly spent every shilling in Ireland.) He did not
m!now the district himself, but gave tee statement as it
ad been forwarded to him. What he objected to for-
pee„tlY was the Honourble Member's making charges
e
anon
43 ymous informatton, which were, in his
`411", (xaggerated in themselves, and unwarranted
ealumuies on a body of men, some of whom had, at all
"t„e„a, done their duty under very difficult circumstances.
tion 'or. BRIGHT said he could not have the least *cc-
to the statement which had been read by the Hon.
'tee
ealher, because it did not appear in the slightest de-
lato invalidate any of the statements he bad formerly
ade with reference to the unicns in the west of Ire-
baned; Re could only say that every one of these state-
-78 Was made on as good an authority as that on
;,,,h the Hon. Member had made a counter-state-
lilt that night, with the exception of one, and that he
be retracted as soon as it was shown to be erroneous.
lloot these statements were not the question before the
ilse"--(flear)—they had had a great many sensible
rsals, and some not very sensible ones, referring to
la s,
before that House, but he had never hard one
iiit:te deserving the support of the House, or less
heelY to encounter the opposition of her Majesty's Go-
gt;ment, than that of his Hon. Friend the Member for
°Ild• supported that motion, because he believed.
4eat.such facts as those alleged demanded instant veri-
eLl°4 and redress. The Government instituted in-
pas ea into man things less worthy of notice. If there
thes'ithrt exPlosiol, or a boiler burst in a steam-boat on
colt .attles, the Right Hon. Baronet would institute a
of 411188,10 n, in order that he might know the cause
might lamentable loss of life which these accidents
ice eceasion. Why should the effects of the wholt-
pre;aPictions not also be inquired into and the causes
eri;,ented from operating? Ono proprietor alone had
fet;eed no less than 1,025 persons, or equal to 200
leit,gee, and it had been calculated at a low rate that at
This one person in every family thus turned out died.
they, would give 200 deaths from that one estate. Were
If, to inquire into such a state of things as that?
141.4 the ignorance or selfishness of the landlords, the
40; had been let and cultivated in such a manner that
the; t',!,e failure of a single crap they could not sustain
PoliVeites, he asserted that neither the principles of
Chas al economy nor the principles of our common
4eritistianity permitted the owners of the soil to commence
Bon „ean exterminating system.—(Hear, hear.) The
tleiii,,4le.raber had talked of proprietors who spent every
speittmg in Ireland. He believed that. They notonly
leite: every shilling of their own, but every shilling be-
et onto the people tbat they could lay hold of, instead
ille-'Zg With prudence, moderation, and forethought in
hitenlanageneent of the revenues derived from their es-
Nu:* The House, he thought, acted with too much
ilseaettlaishness to persons thus situated. He was not to be
het the term confiscation. If the millowners of
ko"eillester were to act in a similar way, and leave the
vel,Pita employed and dependent upon them to starve
The tale, the House would no doubt speedily interfere.
ten. Member for Limerick said, that the landlords
Sot
keltilrush union had laid a rate of 3s. in the pound.
they said that 3s. in the pound was not enough, when
t'haook into consideration the fact that rents were paid
Nri.`at Union, and that grants had been given to it from
dersiarnent. He said that when the landlords came un-
ther?ell circumstances to that House for assistance,
tlts;!advance they received was in fact a bonus upon
(10;1,etion sad the extermination of the people. If the
Ahli,etntnent were to agree to the motion, and send a
110, and firm man to take the administration of the
tenet' ho landlords would soon see that they could no
this shift the burdens from their own shoulders in
atithinY, and give that employment which they now
seerae'd- If the Government took that resolut.e and
ThihsehZtaenr,s eionurtshee, they would soon see an alteration for
general employment of the people.
he he Position of his Hon. Friend was so simple that
14, aid
it would be agreed to. They would have the
44,441 before the House, and the real cause of Ire-
thing Misery would reach the light. There was no-
tebut excess of rates, and if this state of things was
Stelii",tintle, nothing remained for Ireland but misery
iaryation.—( Hear, hour.)
.11/14ra*,°:FLAHERTY said that, while he admitted the
tiett
, pa of the Honourable Gentleman whose mo-
ttleeka before the House, he did not think there was
lob' a necessity for the inquiry, or that it would lead
Sod ha good. He was chairman of the union of Clifton,
ihy the had to state that the English proprietors did not
tlai:uer rates. Surely these proprietors ought to pay
Itatri:e
t,e!es or how could the people be supported ? He
evtos Inform the House that the poor-law was now
4it,i;ag Well in Ireland. This law and the Encumbered
Otte.'" Act were well calculated to produce great im-
kruent in Ireland.
the 14%21-WORE supported the motion, and said he
ilep'elt Was due to the people of Ireland to make the
Th,-e inquiry.
:het 4;41,40 of ARUNDEL and SURREY said it was
lallisf' that there was an excess of misery in Ed-
-14,11e; "at hardly ever before existed in a civilized or
414;1 State of society. It was also admitted
kw:" landlords had acted unfairly towards the
We the' hllt still they did not know tlie
tocatuhsee
erlisresent misery in Ireland. Ile acceded h
itt,i bestowed on Captain Kennedy, and whilead..e
the that the landlords in Kilrush were deserving of
cealUre
a ee.,_ thrown upon them, he must exempt from
hlohie arstlre his neighbour, Colonel Wyndham. . The
1,4% ni'erd (Lord J. Russell) said they had informs-
,athee"angh in respect to the subject under discussion;
eoutanded that more information was necessary,
11.Leithia was so, they -ought to . have it. The Right
"rehtleumn (Sir W. Somerville) said that frauds
'ell''rre eeatninitted by the guardians in the Kilrush union.
eo4a should like to have all these frauds laid before
Peeetiae• He should like to know how the est ties in
'sla," Were and had been managed for years past.
11380,;1' all events, he would say, that it was their duty to
eta:thing to save the lives of the people in Ireland..
C'SeiOle were so degraded by the present state of
,11!:1,1_st he was not surprised at. anything_ they did, nor
i‘i•gel be blamed for their actions. In supporting the
"laPle ter a commission it would be shown to the
of Ireland that there were persons in that House
ittN3loPathised with them in their difficulties.
LNahealle in that House must be thankful. to the. Hon.
4 for the zeal and determination which he
"IsPlayed in bringing the subject forward,
Ithst •
,s(tr andine the discouragement shown to his doing
' 'ear )
•
14;tlf. ILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he did not say
1 lier;4la had been committed in the union of Kilrush.
heals-eta
was, that such a statement had been made
11,1.4,ien Kennedy.
httlie (IROPE would not detain the House by. a
histet.lled reply. All admitted that if the facts. which
h'sd,f itwere true, the necessity. for an inquiry ex-
teriaatr Noble Lord objected that they had sufficient
b 1,-.:°11 before them on the subject; but if they had
kil4t re-e`eesrary information required on the question,
led eaUres, he asked, had been brought in to.re-
ee evils of which he complained? If nothing
ll clone for the people, of what use, he asked.
44‘1.s ,elf,information which it was. said they had?
kl,C,teecjef year they were going on in the same
IttAtieh. did not seem as if they were to have any
14eSse-," of the system. The Hon. Gentleman, in re-
ltj!tiek..4 the plan suggested by the Hon. Member for
Veal' said he had no doubt but if the resources of
111141,i:ere developed, the evils of which she had to
ty, $," Would be relieved.—( Hear.)
ittsr. I'RENCII said the Hon. Member for Man-
eOM the rents in Ireland had been well paid.
lt,4epnt.,lo HT—No, Talid not.
kkitleve,QßENCll—The Hon. Member said that the
N6,`%,„..,a well paid in Kilrush and other places he
Itiitt,l49 and he (Mr. F. French) was justified in as-
lseiLeat the Hon. Member meant to state that rents
Vlsey' were well paid. He could speale for the west,
ye Parts of which the rents had not been paid for
ail to teita, and in other parts for two years. With re-
kika he Proposed inquiry, he saw no advantage that
tr„teit Rained by it; on the contrary, he thought it
klhkenterlere with the efforts now making by the Go-
fkhip,itiod others, to improve the condition of the
IS e Union in question.
P:aae then divided, when there appeared—
t the motion 63
tElinst it ... 76
1114,„ Mwarity ... ..• •
"'ton ajso consequently lost. 13
ss VOTE BY BALLOT.
BERKELEY then rose to move for leave to
sett Bill to protect the Parliamentary electors of
ttiteititkin and Ireland from undue influence by the
oply spoieo ballot. He said that if he were
in need of
Ike RY for bringing forward this motion, it was
I\ti teh,tettae the hour at which he brought it forward
e r -Ivhhat of the latest. (It was then nine o'clock.)
mop tis:h'eet to the motion itself, he considered it of
s°ses4.„ importance, that until some Hon. Member,
llf;stedvatent for the task than himself, undertook it,
,Ille4„a...rerentltinue to press it upon the attention of the
h`t`lear, hear.) He found in her Majesty's
!6ktatisei.ithe opening of this session of Parliament a
Oli t' by constitutional maxim. It was to the effect
ill is yee,nebining liberty with order, by preserving
i..1141,4hatt .hentable and amending what is defective, you
elseltehqttli-i,e fabric of happyti, as the abode
011 free and people. Nothing could
at tle Nt 42titatioual, no sentiment could be mere de-
rktlttlerePtisaieet but he submitted to the Government
hie by Ministerial tree bore suss blossoms the
i,,Nrre Pxpect to gather some fcuit.—(liear, hear.)
toioh.,set-18on of liberal prieciples unattended by
e Of% I,VaS much about the same as a strict ob-
eNl,4 thg_ligious ceremonies without, Christian deeds.
tiqnet etit oh to ask the House ans. the Government
tIN/vi, as deft:elnaxim he bad just quoted, to amand
00,444 %et-I're by interposing a shield between the
li!te iLapt three
who for their own purposes attempted
eiltet,ale at,lll. He knew it was almost hopeless to
se,,lieeaseVation palatable to the House, but he hoped
04,1 poe; claim to their indulgence by avoiding as
440.4. tlble the arguments he had used on previous
alehl are considered the ballot to be the most po-
-144 bethose measures of Parliamentary reform
lUbraitted to the House by his R9b•

lii

Friends on various occasions. Ho considered it to be
the primary step to those other measures of reform, be-
cause it was a stepping-stone to them. Ile thought it
less onjeetionable to the generality of Members, because
in seeking it they sought to alter no existing instituqun.
They sought merely to protect the elector in the dis
charge of a duty which they had entailed upon him, and
because at present he was unable to discharge that duty,
from the obstructions and abuses which had crept into
cur electoral system, and which were as notorious as the
longitude arid latitude in nevigetion. This simple pro-
position, simple as it seemed to him, had always hitherto
been met with lively indignation. Minister after Minister
came down to that House driven to his wits' end to
prove that some vital objection existed to a man dis-
charging his duty sub silentio, even when it was con-
fessed that ho was unable to discharge it viva voce.
This was, in his opinion, a very difficult question to
argue against, whilst the arguments in favour of it
were, he thought, irresistible. The arguments against it
had been gradually dwindling away—they had become
" small by degrees, and beautifully less," until, at length,
they had ended in silence and hard voting.—(llear,
hear, arid laughter.) When other questions of Parlia-
mentary reform were brought before the House, there
was no want of eloquence against them on the part of
their opponents, but the moment the ballot was men-
tioned Hon. Members became perfectly mute. They
shied and dodged the question by every means in
their power. When Mr. Ward brought forward his
motion on the subject, in 1842, the same complaint was
made, and the gre ae difficulty then, as now, was to get
the Government on their legs.—(liear, hear.) The con-
sequence was that people believed that they opposed the
measure for other reasons than those which they as-
signed, and the people were ready enough to assign
reasons for them. The people believed that they op-
posed the measure solely because they could not endure
to see the upper classes and the aristocracy shorn of
their undue and unconstitutional influence.—(Hear,
hear.) The course he intended to pursue on the pre-
sent occasion was to meet some of the objections which
had been most lately put on record as arguments against
the measure. He found that they had a fresh opponent
in the field. He found that they had to contend with
the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Home Department (Sir G. Grey). That Eight Hon.
Gentleman was formerly a supporter of this men sure.
The brilliant eloquence, the acute logical powers of that
Right Hon. Baronet made him an undesirable opponent,
while his high character, and the important position he
held in her Majesty's Councils, made his example most
dangerous.—(Hear, hear.) It was for this latter reason
that, feeling as he did his utter incompetence to cope
with such an adversary, with some hesitation he had re-
solved to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman to explain some
parts of his conduct on this question. He begged to
say that he did not assume for a moment that any gen-
tleman was compelled always to remain of the same
opinion. Grave statesmen and Right Hon. Gentlemen
on both sides of the House had changed their opinions
frequently, and with their opinions bad changed their
votes; and he must say, as an humble individual, that
he had thought them perfectly right. There was the
question of the corn-laws, for instance, upon which the
Noble Lord the Member for London, the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Tamworth, the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Ripon, and other great
statesmen, had changed their opinions and votes; but,
before they did so, they gave that House, the country,
and their constituents the most complete, elaborate,
and anxious explanations ; and he submitted,
that if they had not adopted that course
they would have appeared, in the face of the
country, as so many unequivocal and naked rats.
He (Mr. Berkeley) therefore maintained that Hon.
Members who changed their opinions on so important a
question as the ballot ought to follow a similar course,
and give to the House and the country a most complete
and ample explanation. Now, how stood the facts of the
case? In 1848, when he (Mr. Berkeley) had the honour
to propose and the good luck to carry a resolution—
(Laughter)—in favour of the ballot, the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) did not vote. The friends of
the motion first became aware of the loss they had sus-
tained by that melancholy obituary of departed Re-
formers—the division-list of the House. The Right
Hon. Gentleman appeared in the House on that occa-
sion; but like the phantoms in Macbeth, he came like a
shadow and so departed—he pointed to his vote and
glided noiselessly out of the lobby.—(Bear, hoar,
and laughter.) When the Honourable Member for
Montrose brought forward the general question of re-
form, he (Mr. Berkeley) ventured to arraign the silent
system, and then they had the Right Hon. Gentleman's
explanation. And what did it amount to ? It seemed
that in 1838 the Right Hou. Gentleman voted with the
Government for the ballot, and when Mr. Ward
brought forward the question in 1842 he voted with him
also. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that his
reason for so voting was, that he then represented a
cohstituency (Devonport) where undue influences
prevailed, and that therefore he had been induced
to give his reluctant support to the ballot. In 1847,
however, the Right Hon. Gentleman became Member fur
Northumberland, and as that was a pure constituency—
as ho was then breathing wholesome air—and as he had
at length escaped from the foul atmosphere of Devon-
port, he thought it right to turn round and vote against
the ballot; the reason he assigned being, that public opi-
nion had of late acted so powerfully upon the upper
classes that they had become politically virtuous.—
(Laughter.) Surely never before had such a reason
been given by any statesman for a vote.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been laid down by Burke, that when a Member
entered the House of Commons ne entered it as Member
for England, and that he should not attempt to legislate
for the county, city, or borough which returned him,
but fur the community at large. He (Mr. Berkeley)
left the House to say whether, upon this principle, the
Right Hon. Gentleman's reason for his vote on the sub-
ject of the ballot would hold water. He begged to
call the attention of the Government to another ex-
traordinary circumstance connected,with the House of
Grey. In 1837 Lurd Howick. then Member for
Sunderland, now Lord Grey, voted aginst the ballot,
the reason he assigned for doing so being the
same as that now assigned by his Right Honourable
Relative, viz.. the increased political virtue of the
upper classes. In 1841, however, the Noble Lord, having
been defeated in an election contest for Northumberland,
turned short round upon his former opinions about the
increasing purity of the upper classes, and showed that
ho had been talking nonsense on the subject, for at the
declaration of the poll at Alnwick the Noble Lord made
a most sweeping and unmeasured attack upon the Duke
of Northumberland, Lord Tankerville, and his oppo-
nent Lord Ossulston, for unworthy trickery, for un-
scrupulously violating their promises, and for unduly
influencing the electors. [The :Hon. Member read ex-
tracts from the Noble Lord's speech at Alnwick, as
quoted by Mr. Ward in his speech on the ballot in 1842.]
Mr. Ward on that occasion claimed the Noble Lord as a
proselyte, and challenged him to support him with his
vote. The Noble Lord, however, contented himsef with
walking out of the House without voting at all. It ap-
peared, therefore, that the test of purity of political opinion
in the mind of the family of Grey was a Northumberland
election. If a Grey was rejected, straightway the commu-
nity was plunged into the depths of vice; if a Grey
was successful, the electors were immediately full of
virtue.—(Laughter.) But now, as to the fact of the
increased political purity said to be found among the
upper classes. There was a Committee which inquired
into this subject in 1836. That Committee had evidence
laid before it from all parts of England and Ireland—
evidence which it was impossible for any one who had
not actually read it to conceive. In 1848 he bad quoted
in extenso from that evidence, and proved that a general
state of demoralization characterised all elections at
which anything of party spirit prevailed, and succeeded
in establishing cases not to be upset—and he defied the
Right Hon. Gentleman to upset them—ot the grossest
intimidation, corruption, and malversation, in every pos-
sible way, of the franchise. As an appendix to the re-
port of that Committee, he might point to the evidence
before almost every one of the Election Committees from
that time to this—(Hear)—evidence proving that the
same demoralization, the same intimidation, the same
corruption prevailed after 1836 as before 1836.—(Hear.)
He would ask which was to be believed in preference,
the bare bald assertions of Hon. individual Members, be
their position what it might, or the evidence on oath
taken before so many Committees, backed by the distinct
statements of facts adduced by other Members of the
House whenever the subject had been discussed ?-
-(Hear, hear.) There was the distinct evidence of the
Hon. Member for Birmingham in 1848 and 1849, who
stated, of his own knowledge, that no election for the
great city he represented ever took place without at least
1,000 of the electors being prevented from voting by in-
timidation.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member did not
mention the many hundred other electors who on all
those occasions did vote upon intimidation and against
their consciences.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Member who seconded his motion in 1849—the Mem-
ber for Macclesfield—showed, from his own experience,
the ata'e of intimidation into which the metropolis
was plunged at every election ; and he had himself
given on the same occasion examples of the intimida-
tion practised at particular elections. He required the
Right Hon. Gentleman to show to the House what in-
crease in political virtue had taken place in the upper
classes in 1848, 1849, and 1850, that should supersede
the goodness and expediency of the ballot, which he
himself admitted, in 1838 and 1842.—(Hear, hear.) He
presumed that the Right Hon. Gentleman would have
the tact to avoid, on the present occasion, the obsolete
claptrap that formerly served a turn—about the unman-
liness and the un-Englishness, and so forth, of the ballot
—the twaddle about its being cowardly to give a vote
and conceal its object.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman must see that he might as well suggest it as
cowardice for a man to use his watch and then conceal
it, since the political intimidator and bully had no more
right to your vote than the pickpocket to your watch.
Nor, he conceived, would the Right Hon. Gentleman
venture to suggest that the English people were less fitted
now than in 1842 for the ballot, after the proofs which
the Government had received of the sound sense, intel-
ligence, good feeling, and loyalty of that people, in times
of great excitement abroad and sedition, nay, of rebellion
at home.—(Hear.) Perhaps, indeed, the Right Hon.
Gentleman might contemplate the proposition that the
people were less anxious about the matter now, because
they did not so anxiously agitate the question. Let the
Right Hon. Gentleman beware of such an argemeilt as
that, lest he confirmed what was said against his Go
vernment—that it refused to reason what it yielded to
agitation—(Herr, hear)—lest we justified the character
of the Whigs given by Lord Anglesey, that they were
tide-waiting legislators, who floe ed in on the tide of re-
form, who steered with its slack water, and floated hack
with its ebb.—(Hear, hear.) To the individual Mem-
bers who might be disposed to stay also at what they
thought slack water, he would give the earnest advice to
reflect maturely on the position of things in this year,
1850. The threat of gentlemen on the Opposition
benches to appeal to the country must be ringing in their
ears—(Hear, hear)—and, ringing there, it could not
but bring to their minds the last appeal of the same sort
which led to the general election under the contending

banners of free trade and protection in 1841, and to the
raults of that contest. If the appeal then was an ap-
peal to desnoraluatien, what would an appeal now be?—
(Hear.) It would be an appeal in which wealth and
power, putting on the screw to its last round,
would override the towns, and stalk over the counties,
trampling on chartered rights more basely and unblush-
ingly than ever before.—(Hear, hear.) It wou!d be an
appeal to strength to dictate to eaknes.,, an appeal to
wraith to crush poverty, an appeal to the House of Lords
to elect the House of Common=.—(Hear, hear.) He
would say one word as to the vain st•eropts of recent
legislation to deal with the least of the evils of the pre-
sent electoral system—the evil of overt bribery. They
had made laws stringent enough against overt bribery,
but they had entirely omitted the prevention of secret
bribery, and of that intimidation by exclusive dealing,
which contained within itself the very essence of bribery.
—(Hear, bear.) They had, in short, strained at the
gnat and swallowed the camel. Exclusive dealing was
the right arm of intimidation—the essence of bribery in
its very worst form. In the case of simple bribery you
gave a man a reward for selling his conscience; you,
perhaps, saved him and his family from ruin, from
starvation, and the actual positive good ac-
caring, though no excuse, might be taken as
an extenuation. But in exclusive dealing you
punished, you perhaps ruined a man and his
family, because he f 'Bowed his conscience, and there
could be no doubt which was the worst offence. Again,
they had passed a measure by which it was impossible
for a man to stand against treachery and rascality; he
referred to their law of agency, under which agency was
definable to be a man's walking arm-in-arm with a can-
didate, or being seen in his committee room, or placard-
ing'one:of his;bill, or wearing his colours, and so myth°
further fast of any such person afterwards giving a
sovereign to an elector being deemed sufficient to eject
the candidate, if elected, from his seat.—(Hear.) He
had on this point consulted many of the most eminent
election agents, and they were unanimously of the opi-
nion that under this law, after a general election, there
would be more seats unjustly declared void on petition
than bad ever been declared void before, justly or un-
justly, from the utter vagueness and unlimitable extent
of the definition, and the wide field given t ) simulation
of agency.—(Hear.) He had urged this question on the
House in the honest conviction that it was a measure due
to the people of England, to the constituencies who
elected that House, as a measure called for by justice
and by humanity; and he now committed his short
sketch to them, prepared to receive counter-conviction
from any man who could furnish him with it.—(Cheeas.)
Lord DUDLEY STUART seconded the motion. His
Hon. Friend had endeared himself to the people by his
able, unyielding, and in one case, successful advocacy of
this most important principle.—(Hear, hear.) He was
convinced that there was no question on which the
country felt a deeper interest; no object to the attain-
ment of which they were more thoroughly entitled. It
was demanded alike by all who possessed, and by all
who sought the franchise, as the only means of giving
them the secure exercise of that franchise. Without the
ballot the elector could never substantially enjoy the
vote which the constitution gave him. The ballot was
alike his due, whether he claimed the franchise as a
trust, as a right, or as a privilege. In relation to its
character as a trust, it was objected that those wbo so
exercised, being responsible for its exercise to the non-
electors, could not consistently conceal its application;
but this argument, at all events, could not be justly held
by those who resisted an extension of the franchise on
the ground that the people were not yet fitted for it;
since, if they were not fit to vote, they were equally
unfit to control a vote.—(Hear, hear.) If any persons
doubted the extent to which undue influence prevailed,
he would ask them to look at the different constituencies
and see whether there were any in which nu-
merous electors did not abstain from voting through
fear of incurring the displeasure of influential indivi-
duals, or from the hope and expectation of some reward.
Now, the ballot, would, on the one hand, prevent inti-
midation, while on the other hand it would prevent the
possibility of corruption. He felt it difficult to believe
in the sincerity of those who opposed the ballot on the
ground that it would promote deception and encourage
a spirit of disingenuousness, and that it would be found
ineffectual for the object it was intended to accomplish.
He believed the opposition offered to the ballot arose
from a love of power. Its opponents could not divest
themselves of a notion that they had a right to direct
and govern the votes of those who lived on their estates,
or with whom they dealt. They were averse to the
measure because they had no confidence in the people,
and they had no confidence in themselves.—(Hear, hear)
They talked about the just influence of property; but
what was the just influence of property? It was this—
that when a possessor of property was a humane and
considerate man, he would be respected and looked
up to by those around him, who would be anxious
to know his opinions, and who would probably in most
cases be guided, by his views; but anything be-
yond that was tyranny.—(Hear, hear.) If it were
considered desirable that property should have more in-
fluence, that House had better pass a law providing that
people should have votes in proportion to their property.
That would be preferable to the present system, which
pretended to give people votes, but which was nothing
better than a mockery and a delusion. It was said that
the ballot would be ineffectual to accomplish the object
it was intendei to effect. He would admit that that
might perhaps happen in some small places ; but the
conclusion to which he came was that the franchise ought
not to be continued in such small places, but that larger
bodies ought to be invested with the right of electing
Members of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) lie would not
say that he considered the ballot would be a panacea for
all evils, or that it might not be attended with some dis-
advantages as well as with great advantages. He was
not in favour of doing things in secret, and he thought
it would be much better if all electors had the manliness
and independence to exercise their franchise without de-
ferring to the influence of others, and if persons in the
higher classes were too bighminded to stoop to intimida-
tion and corruption. But when he knew the situation to
which families had been reduced because electors had given
their votes conscientiously, he considered that they ought
not to call upon men to make such sacrifices for the enjoy-
ment of the privilege or right which the constitution had
,placed in their hands. It was said that the ballot would
be useless, because the electors would themselves divulge
in what way they had voted; but was it likely, when it
was important to a man that his votes should not be
known, that ho would be so great a fool as to proclaim
for whom his vote had been given? He (Lord D. Stuart)
thought, however, that it was likely, after a time, that
the habit of concealing votes would be laid aside. He
believed that if they bad the ballot, the rich and power-
ful would by degrees abandon their attempts to tyrannize
and to corrupt, that things would then be placed upon a
better footing, and that the people would not be anxious
to Conceal their votes. In the recent discussions on the
Irish franchise, they had heard something from Hon.
Gentlemen opposite of the leaven of democracy, and of
that House proceeding in a downward course. He was
not afraid of the leaven of democracy; he wanted the
people to have the constitutional right of electing their
own representatives, and he considered that, when that
House was really and truly elected by the people, and
was more in harmony with their wishes and desires, so
far from being lowered it would be greatly elevated.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the ballot would tend
to the general welfare and benefit of the nation, and the
motion before the House had therefore his hearty con

currence.
The question having been put,
Sir G. GREY said, he would not occupy the atten-
tion of the House for more than a few minutes, but, as
the mover of the resolution had devoted a considerable
portion of his speech to a discussion of his (Sir G. Grey's)
conduct upon this question, he would in a very few sen-
tences gratify the Hon. Gentleman's curiosity, by in-
forming him what were the opinions he entertained, and
what course he intended to take on the motion before
the House. Ho differed from that Hon. Gentleman in his
estimate of the importance of the ballot. He (Sir G.
Grey) never had stated that he considered the question
one of vast importance ; and when he had supported a
motion for the ballot, he had said that ho had no great
confidence in the success of the plan. Ho had supported
it, however, in deference to the opinions of a large body of
constituents, to whom he owed much, and who had given
him most disinterested support. That constituency, by
petitions addressed to that House, had certainly persuaded
him of their desire to obtain the ballot as a protection
for some of their number, with regard to whom he stated
at the time that he thought undue influence had been
exercised, and fir whom he endeavoured to procure the
protection they required. He agreed very much in the
opinion which had been expressed a few nights ago by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the advantages
and evils of the ballot were both greatly exaggerated.
The more he had heard the question argued, and the
more consideration he had given to it, the more satisfied
he was that so far from preventing bribery, the ballot,
if adopted, would in some constituencies greatly facili-
tate the commission of wholesale bribery, and in most
constituencies would render it difficult to bring home
acts of bribery to particular parties. At the same time
he thought there were cases where the power of
giving secret votes might enable honest voters to
exercise the franchise according to their own
judgment and conscience, free from external con-
trol.—(Hear, hear.) He believed, however, that
in the vast majority of cases the ballot, if
adopted, would be actually inoperative. He did not
think it would be a panacea for intimidation or bribery.
Ho considered that publicity was of the very essence of
our elective franchise.—(Hear, hear.) He would say
nothing about the ballot being English or un-English,
but he would say that under its operation the record of
the vote would not be, in 90 cases out of 100, the first
indication of the intention and opinions of the voter.—
(Hear, hear.) Where the political opinions of candi-
dates were marked and distinct, and where the great
majority of the electors were divided into marked and
distinct classes, the relative strength of parties was well
known, and the candidates knew upon what voters they
could rely. He believed, therefore, that if secret voting
were adopted, publicity would still remain as the very
essence of our electoral system. The question then was
—whether it was necessary or expedient to adopt the
ballot for the protection of a minority of voters? He
had stated that, on the occasion which had been re-
ferred to, he had, in deference to the expressed wishes
of his constituents, but with hesitation and reluctance,
having no confidence in the efficacy of the remedy,
given his sapport to the remedy they had suggested,
The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Berkeley) bad said that he
(Sir G. Grey) stated last year that the political virtue
and purity of the elective classes bad so far in-
creased that he (Sir G. Grey) thought the ballot no
longer necessary. The Honourable Gentleman had in-
vented that speech for him.—(A laugh.) He would ask
the Hon. Gentleman where he could find it, for he (Sir
G. Grey) had used no such expressions. What ho had
said was, that of late years the growing infitionce of

public opinion had produced a much more powerful
check than formerly existed against the nse of those
undue means which had been frequently exercised with a
view to induce electors to vote contrary to their opinions.
He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would see that that was
a totally different thing from extolling political virtue
and purity. He (Sir G. Grey) bad spoken of public
opinion as expressed through the press, in the country,
and in that House, and of the exposure which followed
attempts to intimidate or corrupt electors; and he be-
lieved that this afforded a better security than any law
that could be adopted by the Legislature. Ile believed
that if they were to adopt the ballot they would not
protect that class of electors who, with known poli-
tical opinions, wished to abstain from voting. Their
opinions being known, they might still be prevented
from voting by undue influence. With regard to the
various lights in which the franchise was regarded,
he differed from these who treated it as a mere
privilege, for he considered the franchise, not as a
mere privilege, but as a trust conferred for the bene-
fit of the community, and which should therefore be
exercised in the face of the community. TLeie consi-
d Tations induced him, in the exercise of his own judg-
ment, which be felt bound to follow, under the present
circumstances of the country, when there was no ap-
pea'aeco of the ballot being required, when there was
no expression:of public opinion on the subject, andwhen ho
believed the people:genterally did not desire it—although
the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Berkeley) had by a
lucky accident carried his motion by a very narrow ma-
jority last year—to decline to concur with the Hon.
Gentleman in the change he proposed—a change which
he (Sir G. Grey) believed would confer anvantages
upon a very small portion of the community, and which
advantages would, in his opinion, be counterbalanced by
the evils which would follow with respect to bribery
and corruption.—(Hear, hear, and cries of" Divide.")
Mr. M. GIBSON said it appeared that upon these
questions of reform they were not to be allowed to have
fair debates, for Hon. Gentlemen opposite called for a
division almost before the Right Hon. Home Secretary
had declared the views of the Government.
Sir G. GREY—My*own views.—(A cry of" Hear.")
Mr. M. GIBSON was glad to hear they were not the
views of the Government, and that this was an open
question.—(Hear, hear.) Upon several recent occasions
Hon. Gentleman opposite had urged the importance of
ascertaining the independent views and opinions of the
tenant-farmers of England; and one Hon. Gentleman
had expressed his desire that the true opinions of that
class, free from all external influences, should be heard
in that House. He (Mr. Gibson) was prepared to give
the tenant-farmers on opportunity of so expressing their
opinions, and for that purpose he would give them the
protection of the ballot.—(" Oh! oh!" and laughter.)
The Right Hon. Home Secretary had stated that when
he voted for the ballot he had done so in deference to
the opinions of the electors who sent him to that House;
and it was his (Mr. Gibson's) conviction, from the
knowledge he had of tenant-farmers, that if Honour-
able Gentlemen opposite voted in deference to the
opinions of those who sent them to Parliament,
the tenant occupiers, they would support the ballot.—
(Laughter, cries of "Oh! oh!" and cheers.) The Right
Honourable Baronet had said that the ballot would
be inoperative in the great majority of cases. Where,
then, was the danger of trying the experiment, if that
system might be called an experiment which was in full
operation in many other countries ? He (Mr. Gibson)
would venture to say that in no other country where the
ballot had been adopted would they find the electoral
body willing to relinquish it.—(Hear, hear.) The bal-
lot was required for that minority of cases—if minority
it were—where undue or improper influence was exer-
cised upon electors ; and to say that the ballot would
be inoperative in a great majority of cases was no valid
argument against it. They might apply that rule to
their police regulations, to their criminal law, and to
other institutions which, in a great majority of cases,
were inoperative—(Hear, hear)—but the question
was, did they come into operation in any minority
of cases where the protection of the law was re-
quired ? What public object did they gain by ins:
posing publicity as the condition of a man giving his
vote ? As they imposed upon every elector the obliga-
tion to publish his vote, they were bound to show
the public advantage of such a restraint. Were elec-
tors, he asked, to vote as they themselves wished, or
not? He believed the House would say they ought to
vote according to their own wish and conscience. If,
then, by compulsory publicity, they compelled a man
to vote otherwise than be would have done with the
protection of the ballot, they violated the principle on
which they gave that man a vote; namely, that he
should use it according to his own conscience and
opinions. If, on the other hand, publicity had no effect,
and the man voted just as he otherwise would have
done, then this obligatory restraint and publicity were of
no value. If the electoral body were known to be at
liberty to exercise their own free convictions in voting,
there would be less of claptrap agitation; a candidate
would more maturely consider his speeches when he
knew that they would be weighed by unbiassed under-
standings, whilst at the same time a higher tone of
thought would be engendered in the constituency. At
present, indeed, many a man would rather not hear
arguments upon a public question, fearing that his con-
victions might oblige him to vote against his interest.—
(A. laugh.) That was the case in a great many instances
in many small boroughs where considerable influence
was exercised.—(Hear, hear.) With the ballot, timid
men would no longer be deterred from voting through
fear of mobbing, or of having to pas through two lines
of men using expressions perhaps not very agreeable to
hear. The argument for open voting—its being un-
Ergtish, that it should be secret—might be used in favour
of requiring a man, when he made his will, to publish it
at the church door.—(Oh!) If the genuine voice of the
constituency were desired, they should have the protec-
tion of secrecy in recording their votes.—([Tear, hear.)
Mr. J. WILLIAMS had felt it his duty, on behalf
of those who desired to use the franchise without per-
mission from or under the compulsion of their customers
to corroborate last year the Honourable Member's (Mr.
H. Berkeley's) statements of the disgraceful state of
thraldom in which the inhabitants of this metropolis
were plunged, and was enabled to point out also the de-
moralisation of constituencies in Wales—his own native
country. The Honourable Member had well remarked,
that although for the last few years the screws and en-
gines of compulsion bad not been resorted to, unless in
particular instances, with that fierce determination which
marked their use in times of great political excitement,
yet it was a miserable argument to pretend that there-
fore intimidation had gone out of fashion. Let the aris-
tocracy now, if they could, or at any time, stir up an
election, and we should have the same scenes enacted
which he ventured to describe last session. Carriages,
with their titled occupants, would roll from door to door,
as they did in 1841, the threats and cajolery of ladies—
(Loud laughter)—being carried to a much greater ex-
tent with tradesmen than their male relatives dared to
go.—(Renewed laughter, and cries of "Hear, hear.")
As a plain man—(A laugh)—but, he trusted, an
honest one—(Hear, hear)
_he was utterly unable to
comprehend how Hon. Members could defend the pre-
sentnot be honest, and say that it was
entrustWthheypresent class of voters with the fran-
foily system.
to
fran-
chise, but that a man should vote so many times accord-
ing to his property ? To qualify one set of men to elect
representatives, and then permit that privilege to be
usurped by another, was contrary to reason and common
sense.—(Hear, hear.) It was in vain to deny this state
of things. In the country the landlord alone was always
canvassed; and when estates changed hands, the voters
adopted the politics of the new masters. How much
better for an auctioneer putting
up an estate to describe
it as well timbered and watered, abounding in natural
productions, pheasants, hares, rabbits, pike, trout, and
electors,—market and polling-place at a convenient dis-
tance?—(Laughter.) Of all practices most abhorrent
to an Englishman was this system of intimidation, openly
repudiated, but quietly winked at and encouraged.—
(Hear.) The system had been maintained too long by
thoroughgoing Tories and half-going Whigs, until it had
become a scandal and disgrace to a civilized nation.—
(Hear, hear.) Parliament should extend the suffrage to
its permitted limits, and allow men to vote who now re-
fused, and give the middle and lower classes the power
of expressing their real opinions. He should vote fur
the ballot.
Mr. HEALD entirely dissented from the proposition,
that this motion ought to be agreed to on the ground
that the electors of this country required the protection
of the ballot. Ho did not admit that it would be a pro-
tection to them—(Hear, hear)—and he begged to state
that the electoral body did not ask for, desire, or wish
for such protection.—(Hear, hear.) They prided them-
selves on being known as supporting certain principles
and favourite candidates.—(Hear.) As for the minority
to whom the Home Secretary had referred, who were
they? He represented a popular borough, and he was
prepared to state that not merely four-fifths of the con-
stituency of that borough, but nine-tenths, did not want
the ballot—(Hear)—they felt it would be a reflection
upon their integrity and their preparedness t avow what
were their views on great public questions.—(Hear,
hear.) And he honoured that principle.—(Cheers.)
He would be the last to part with any essential
feature of our English cliaracter.—(Hear, hear.)
He was not ashamed of any vote he ever gave ;
candidates were examined openly on the hustings, and,
as one who was canvassed as to his views, he claimed a
right to be dealt with openly and fairly.—(Hear, hear.)
There was a small minority indeed in all our constitu-
encies that was to be regarded under a very different
view—a nondescript party—(A laugh)—at every elec-
tion hanging in the balance—(Laughter)—and waiting
almost till the poll was about to close before they would
determine for whom, if the election was nicely poised,
they would vote.—(Hear, hear.) Was the country to
part with a long-established and greatly honoured sys-
tem of taking the sense of the constituency of the
empire merely to meet the case of this small minority?
—(Hear, heir.) The sooner the country was relieved
from any kind of premium or advantage, or protection
given to that small proportion of the constituency, the
purer and the freer, and the more satisfactory, would be
the record of the votes of the electoral body.—(Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT felt that it would be extremely satis-
factory if the very favourable character which the lion.
Gentleman had given of his constituency could
be believed to be true of the constituencies generally.
Stockport was a borough not remarkable for its purity
—(A laugh)—for the little cost of elections—(llear)
or the absence of tumult at them.—(hear.) lie (Mr.
Bright) knew something of Stockport.—(A laugh.) It
was a town almost entirely supported by the cotton
trade; many of the firms there were wealthy and pow-
erful, employing frem 500 to 2,000 persons, and having
influence over all the tradesmen in the town who supplied
the articles necessary in the wear and tear of those es-
tablishments. The large millowner, in a moderate size
town, was very much in the position of a large pro-
prietor of land, having labourers and tenants dependent
on him. He himself was in the position he was de-
scribing—(A laugh)—namely, employing a large num-
ber of persons, and seeing constantly at his counting-
house the people employed in the various subsidiary
manufactures of the neighbourhood coming to receive
$llO4 orders or payment of their scoounte. The ingueuce

against which the ballot was intended to guard existed
to a very large extent; and it depended upon the mo-
rality and the conscientiousness of those who had that
influence, whether it should be used against the rights
of the electors subjected to it.—(lleer.) Without
making any charge in reference to Stockport more than
Hochdalo or the metropolis, he would ark the House
whether, when party spirit ran high, (as it often did in
small towns even were there seemed very little to fight
about), it was not known that this influence was con-
stantly exercised by candidates and by employers con-
nected with all political parties?—(Hear, hear.) He
solemnly believed that every man in the House was as
conscious as himself that in the great majority of elec-
tions, whether for counties or boroughs, particularly if
the constituency was limited and the contest ran keen,
this influence was constantly exercised adversely to the
independent and conscientious voting of a great number
of tho electors—(Hear, hear)—and the borough of
Stockport was no exception.—(Hear, hear.) Tho Hon.
Gentleman said that n'ne-tenths of his constituency did
not want the ballot; nine-tenths of them did not vote for
him—(Oh, oh !)—but he would probably be asked to
present a petition in favour of the ballot, signed by a
majority of those electors.—(Hear.) In the neighbour-
hood in which he (Mr. Bright) lived—in Lancashire—
where probably the eleetoralclasses whereas independent
as in any portion of the kingdom, a great majority of
them, he believed, were in favour of the ballot; and the
principal reason why the Members of that House did not
give them the ballot was the knowledge that with it the
returns in many constituencies would be very different
from what they now were.—(Hear, heir.) He was
amazed at some gentlemen opposite, great sticklers for
morality, quoting all parts of Scripture in favour of all
kinds of questionable propositions—(Laughter)—Gen-
tlemen who assumed to be the defenders of the Church
and of that Christianity which the Church was supposed
to embody—(Oh, oh!)—he was astonished that, seeing
the immorality—(oh!)—seeing the cruelty and oppres-
sion exercised on the part of powerful and wealthy men
towards the more dependent classes of the electors,
these Gentlemen should oppose a proposition like this,
against which the most that could be said was, that it
would not do all the good its advocates expected.
The time was not very far distant when the whole
of this representative system, the franchise and mode of
election, would be subjected to a more thorough investi-
gation and reform.—(Oh, oh! and Hear.) The thing
was so monstrous upon the face of it that we were ex-
posed to the ridicule of every foreigner who examined
it.—(Laughter, and cries of "Oh, oh!") And it would.
be wise for gentlemen, instead of raising unmeaning
laughs—(Oh, ohl)—to adduce arguments, if they had
any—(Oh!)—in favour of a system which was ridiculous
in theory, and which in practice was found to create
great evils and to cause great discontent throughout the
country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MASTERMAN (who was very imperfectly
heard) was understood to express his opinion that it was
not desirable that votes should be concealed. He should
rather know at all times who were his friends and who
were his enemies than remain in ignorance as to the
eharacter and feelings of his constituents.
Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Hon. Member oppo-
site had stated the views upon this question of the
electors of the borough which he represented, and had
told the House that not above one-tenth of them was
favourable to the ballot. Now, he should say that as
far as his experience went in one borough at least, it
showed that a very large proportion of its constituency
desired the ballot, and if he were asked to what class
they belonged, he should say to a highly respectable
class, who refused to exercise the franchise, feeling that
they could scarcely venture to do so with justice to their
families. He remembered, some years ago, at an elec-
tion for that borough which he now had the honour
to represent, the parties on both sides came to him
and asked if he had any objection that they should
see his workmen, but they added that they supposed
it would be of no use, for, of course, the men were
already pledged to vote as he might dictate. To
this his reply was, that they could canvass his men
if they pleased—that he would as soon think of
meddling with a man's pocket as with his vote.—(Hear,
hear.) But, though he did not interfere with his men,
the application to him in his own borough showed how
the system of open voting worked; and it was the same
in all manufacturing towns. The majority of the
masters were as tyrannical towards the working men as
the ladies were towards the shopkeepers. He asked,
would they give to men the privilege of voting and not
protect them in the exercise of that privilege? Let
them look at the effect of vote by ballot in Belgium. It
was established there in 1830, and he had every reason
to believe that it worked very well to the satisfaction of
all men in that country. The ballot was not now a part
of our system in this country, but it would soon become
so; it would not fail to be so in some time. It was
ridiculous to talk of doing everything openly; men did
net leave their account-books and papers open to all the
world.
Colonel SIBTHORP had no objection to make to
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Manchester,
but, in reference to the remarks of the lion. Member
for Birmingham, he must be allowed to observe that he
by no means concurred with that Hon. Gentleman in
wishing that England should imitate foreign nations.
He entertained a decided objection to the introduction of
foreign manners and customs; even the Exposition d'ln-
dustrie—(A laugh)—did not appear to him so admirable
a project as some thought it. He had listened with in-
finite pleasure to the observations that night made by
his excellent friend the Member for London, for that
Hon. Gentleman relied on his own integrity and his own
consistency, and was never afraid of open voting. Dur-
ing more than twelve, years he (Colonel Sibthorp) had
the honour of a sent in that House,—how long he might
continue to retain that scathe did not know, but of this
ho felt assured, that his manner of voting in that House
would undergo no change. He should despise the voter
who supported him in a covert, tricky, un-English man-
ner, and ho could say in the face of a British House of
Commons that he had never bribed any voter, nor ever
influenced a tenant. He did not know what the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government might say to vote
by ballot, but for his part he should never cease to op-
pose it.—(hear.)
Mr. HUME would judge the Hon. Member who spoke
last from his own words; be talked of the practice being
un-English. Let him look at the clubs of London.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh! ') The ballot no doubt might work
an unpleasant and extraordinary change in the House of
Commons; but he remembered the time when it was de-
fended by those who opposed it now. As to the state-
ments by the Hon. Member for Stockport, he could not
help saying that that Hon. Gentleman was altogether
mistaken—he had libelled his own constituents, for
within the last three weeks a public meeting had been
held there at which thousands of the inhabitants declared
in favour of the ballot. If the ballot were established there
would be no bribery, for who would " buy a pig in a
poke?" Ho thought that the Hon. Member for London
was also mistaken.
Mr. MASTEIIMAN said he had never stated that
his constituents were against the ballot; what he said
was, that they had never intimated to him that they
wanted it.
Mr. HUME resumed. There had been twenty-five
meetings in London recently which had declared in
favour of the ballot. Tne Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey) said there was no demand for the ballot. The
reason was that the people knew too well the constitution
of the Houso—(Hear, hear)—the fact being that at
almost every popular meeting they declined to petition
the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) He had only
this to say, that they who used the ballot to protect
themselves acted unjustly, un-English, and unmanly in
refusing it to others.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HEALD rose to explain. He said ho was certain
that neither the Hon. Member for Montrose nor the Hon.
Member for Manchester wished to misrepresent him.
What ho said was that ho believed nine-tenths of the
constituency of the empire, including his own, aid not
require the ballot as a means of protection in recording
their votes.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh!") His argument
was that such a proportion prided themselves in having
it known what were their distinctive principles, and who
was their favourite candidate.—(" Oh, oh I")
Mr. BERKELEY replied—He said he would detain the
House only a very few minutes, for he did not find that
he had much to answer.—(Cheer.) He had first to
accept the explanation of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), and to assure him that he had never meant to
attribute to him the use of at y words expressive of trans-
cendent virtues and purity in relation to the upper classes;
he only ascribed the sentiment to the Right Hon.
Baronet, who had borne him out in this interpretation.
With respect to the ballot it would be a cure for
bribery in large constituencies, but not in small ones.
He had heard nothing to-night that had at all shaken
his opinion respecting the ballot, which he did not,
however, pretend was a panacea for the evils which he
desired to remedy. He was convinced that these small
constituencies must, sooner or later, be done away with.
It had been said, that if the ballot became a law, a man
would be compelled to secrecy; but this was a mistake.
A man might go and proclaim his vote; he might march
up to the polling booth with banners and music if he
chose; but if ho saw that he would be ruined by taking
a certain course, the ballot afforded him proper protec-
tion.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that he should find
himself supported on the present occasion by all those
Members who had heretofore voted in favour of the
ballot.—(Cheers.)
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 121
Against it -• 176
Majority
The announcement of the numbers was received with
cheering by the friends of the ballot.
Lord MELGUND moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to reform and extend the school establishments of Scot-
land. The Noble Lord, who was very indistinctly
heard, was understood to say that many defects existed
in the school establishments of Scotland, for which a re-
medy was demanded, and this he intended in some
degree to supply by
the measure which ho wished to in-
troduce. Ho proposed to establish some educational
test for teachers, and to raise as high as possible the
profession and status of that class of the community. He
would give large parishes the power of dividing them-
selves into districts for educational purposes, and ho
would enable adjoining localities to unite together and
form themselves into unions for the same object. If
leave were given to bring in the Bill, he would explain
more fully on a future occasion the provisions of the
measure ; but he felt that at that late hour he would not
be justified in detaining the House.
Sir G. CLERK regretted that the lateness of the
hour had prevented the Noble Earl from stating more at
length the nature of the Bill. He would not oppose the
introduction of the measure, but he hoped that ample time
would be given to consider it in all its bearings before the
House was called upon to discuss either the principle
or the details,
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. WOOD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to pre-
vent the holding of vestry or other meetings in churches,
and for regulating the appointment of vestry-clerks.
The 13111 was not intended to be one of a compulsory
Photo, but to enable parishes of 1:119TO than 1,000

MA RCH 8,181 W.

bitants to make a7plication to the Poor-law- Commis-
sioners for power to extend its provisions to such
parishes. It was p roposed to authorise the payment of
ve3try-clerks out of the rates of the parish.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. ADAIR obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
provide for the more equitable distribution of the
charge for the relief of the poor in certain cities and
towns.

Oil the motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered
of the name of each of her Majesty's ships of war in
commission and in ordinary on the Ist of January, 1850,
and by whom built, &.c.; of the number of ships in
commission and in ordinary in each year, since 1828; and
an account of the sums expended ou each ship in build.
ing and repairing, SE,-;., since 1828.
Mr. BAINES moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
make better provision for the contributions of unions and
pa:ishes iu school districts to the common fund of the
respective districts. The object of the Bill was to re-
move some doubts that had arisen as to the meaning of
an Act passed in 1544 on this subject, and which con-
tained a number of very valuable provisions. It related
to the contributions made to district schools. The ave-
rages were at present taken at different periods in the
various parishes comyrising each union, and one object
of the present Bill was to take the averages simulta-
neously. Again, there was no provision in the present
law to add ono parish to a school district composed of a
certain number of unions. The Bill would provide for
this also, and, as an instance, he might mention that the
parish of St Luke, Chelsea, would be added to the North
Surrey Union school district.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. TRELAWNY gave notice that he would ask the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government whether any
steps bad been taken in pursuance of a sort of under-
taking given by him (Lord J. Russell) in 1847, that cer-
tain persons connected with the union schools should
have some of the small offices of the State.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the second
reading of this Bill.
Mr. TURNER opposed it, on the ground of the late-
ness of the hour and the thinness of the House.
The Bill was postponed de die in diem, to give the
Solicitor-General the first available opportunity to
move it.
The House went into Committee on the
REGISTRAR OF METROPOLITAN PUBLIC
CARRIAGES BILL.

In reply to Mr. BANKES,
Mr. C. LEWIS stated that the proposed compensa-
tion of the present officers would effect a saving to the
public.
The Bill was passed through Committee,
The House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.