The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-27 00:00:00

SET V, b TDCjfit, SAttTII:IDAY. MORNING, StfLT T 7, 1844

~ ~~_

P A TZIA A 31 iLN T.

HOUSE OF Li iliOS.

Their 1-4rd•l-4:3 met. qt. Five k.
A me,,age from the C..nonons broul4ht up the ..Fra-
fidgar-,•quare Bill. and several othc'r Bills.
CATHOLIC PENAL LAWS REPEAL.

Lord BEAUMONT gave notice, that on Monday next,
he should move that the report on the Catholic Penalties
Abolition Bill be brought up, and that the Bill be re-
committed.
ILLEGAL PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).

Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the order of the day
for the Committee Ai this Bill.
The Earl of WICKLOW ;eared that his Noble Friend
Would think him rather too pertinr.ci,us in his opp,sition
to the Bill. Ile was aware that at this season it was
quite vain to offer any opposition to the Bills which were
daily br ‘nght up in shoals. This Bill was merely to
renew a Bill already in s.xisteneo, and, therefore, sub-
stantml amendments could not be with propriety iptro•
duced into It seem, dto him to he extremely unitiq that
Parliament should pass such Acts as thi,, directed against
one class, as in this case the Prote,tants:, or rather the
Orangemen or Ireland. Why sh,•uld not the law be
extended to all other processions accompanied by bands
of music, banners. &c.? Last year, there were monster
meetings, processions, far more dangerous than the
processions of the Protestants which this Bill was to

repress. There were also the temperance processions,
which although harmless in themselves were turned to
a mischievous purpose, as had been f eteseen by that
great benefactor of his country, Faber Mathew, who
always set his face against temperance processions with
bands and banners —(Hear, hear.) Instead of passing
this Continuence Bill, lie thought the Government would
better consult the wishes and wehare of the people of Ire-
land if they allowed the Bill in existence to expire, and to
bring in next session a Bill applying to all kinds of pro-
cessions, if necessary. But he denied that, if the Go-
vernment of that country were carried on impartially,
there would ee any neeessit.t fir Arms Bills, Coercion
Bills, and Procession Bills. He moved that the Bill be
committed that day three months.
The E irl of itODEN seconded the motion, and
was very happy that his Noble Friend had expressed
himself so openly and so ably on this subject. The Bill
was felt by the Protestants of the North of Ireland to be
a eratuitous insult to them, and especially at this pericei
When the time for their possessions had passed. What
reason, he would ask, eas there for introducing this
insult, this affront, this degrading and offensive
Bill? He thought that if the Government would take this
opportunity of withdrawing the measure, they would
give satisfaction to all pat ties ; for the Roman Catholics
themselves had petitioned against the Act, which was
odious to all. He agreed with his Noble Friend that,
however beneficial the effects of temperance might
tie, a mischievous use had been made of the bands and
processions, and it was notorious that these temperance
bands attended at all the monster meetings and repeal
processions. It was the duty of the Government, there-
fore, to put clown all such processions as well as those of
the Irish Protestants.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that the Noble
Lords who wished this Bill to be committed this day
three months forgot their own argument. They said that
the Bill was an insult and an injustice to the Protestants
of Ireland, and at the same time that the other party
petitioned against the law. When the Bill came first
into operation some years ago, the greatest praise was
bestowed upon the conduct of the parties whose proces-
sions this Bill was framed to repress. The Legislature
had every reliance in the loyalty of those people. But it
was thought necessary for the peace of the country to
atop the processions. His Noble Friends spoke of the
monster processions and meetings last year with banners
and bands of music. But he was not aware that those
who took part in those processions appeared in arms.
The attention of the Government was fur a long time
directed to those meetings ; and those who were in-
strumental in calling them together, and disturb-
ing the peace of the countri, were brought to
triel. He thought the Government might claim
eredit to itself for these trials, and they could now see
what the result had been. The country was perfectly in
peace, and at the assis s the courts had little to do.
There was reason to believe tlat there would be
no necessity for those extraord is try laws, but that
Ireland could he governed as England was, by the
simple operation of the laws as they were. The law to
which the Bill slow' before the House related, was already
in existence, and the Government did not think it would
be expedient to allow it to expire as yet. But the Go-
vernment wanted no new law. Hitherto the existing
"ws had been sufficient for maintaining the
Peace of the country ; but if the present law
should prove inadequate, then it would be the duty of
the Government to extend this law to other processions
*which might appear dangerous to the peace. At pre-
sent, he repeated that the Government wanted no new
Power, although they were unwilling to part with any
Power such as that of the law now under consideration,
and which the Legislature had so many years entrusted
to them. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to
go into Committee.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said that although
usually opposed to the Government, he felt bound to
suppor t them on this occasion. He quite agreed with
the Noble Duke opposite that the Government ought
not to give up the power which the Legislature had so
long entrusted to them. If the Bill were allowed to ex•
Aire, the Government could not but feel responsible for
any mischief that might ensue.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE assured his Noble Friends
(the Earls of Wicklow and Roden) that nothing could be
further from his thoughts than to offer an insult, or to
do an injury to the Protestants of the north of Ire-
land, whose conduct had been most praiseworthy,
and marked by loyalty and good order. It was certain
th,,t the law did not apply to the temperance and mon-
ster processions of last year. But they were to recollect
that they had to deal with a man who boasted that he
could drive a coach and four through an Act of Parlia-
ment, and who had contrived to keep those meetings
within the verge of the law. Indeed, no Act could bge
fra.tm. ed effectually to extend this Bill to such meetings
without preventing the people of Ireland from holding
Any meeting whatever with music or banners.
The question was then put, the amendment was nega-
tived, and the Bill passed through Committee without
discussion, and was reported,
The Marqu:s of SALISBURY moved that the peti-
tion of Mr. Paton, an engineer, claiming compensation for
expenses incurred (as the petition alleged) by the order
of a Committee of the House, be referred to a Select
Committee.
After a few words from Lord COLBORNE and Lord
WRARNCLIFFE, the motion was negatived without a

HEALTH OF THE METROPOLIS.
The Marquis of NORNIANBY presented a petition
from medical men in Shoreditch, in favour of improved
sanatory regulations in the metropolis. The Noble
Marquis then moved the order of the day for the consi-
deration of an humble address to her Majesty en the
subj,,ct of the sanatory co idition of the people. The
unhealthiness of the large towns was on the increase,
and called for sanatory regulations. In 1811 the mor-
tality in Manchester was only I in 78, in the last year
it was 1 in 28, and fifty thousand persons perished an-
nually in the large towns from contagious diseases, which
sanatory regulations would have prevented. In the
meantime a great increase of the population of the large
towns had been occasioned by the transfer of a large por-
r°ll of the agricultural tab, urers to manufactures.
n the year alluded to the ageienitural population was
double the manufacturing; but now the proportion was
reversed, and the manufacturing population was as two
to one to the agricultural. But, at the same time, the
mortality had increased ; awl in fifty towns, with an
aggregate population of 2,051,799, upwards of 63,000
Persons had died in three years of contagious diseases.,
The Noble Marquis then re, d a eumber of statemente
fir. Arnett,
the works awl reports of De. Southwood Smith,
t atnrinoott, tied other gentles)). to show the extent of
in various parts of the metropolis, arising
from the want of ventilation and cleanliness.) He him.
self had accompanied some of those gentlemen into the
worst parts of \\ h. techapel, Bethnal-green, Shoreditch,
the Soho and he found all the evils pointed out by
a,;lsse genoemen existing in their most aggravated form.
th. slowness of the progress made by the Commission en
eels subje'A, and the iressing charaeter of the evil, con.
"'need him that he oueht to bring forward this motion
s. en at this late period of the session. The Commis-
C t°eners had only sat twenty-eight days for the examiett-
e of witnesses. and in their report they state that
hey would proceed with the consideration which so im-
U'r,tant a subject required. But they seemed to over-
„„eit that it was a subject which called for action more than
ifiesideration. They overlooked the fact that 156 persons
Netl daily in the metropolis from that class of contagious
es's, es. which sanatory regulations would prevent. (The
ec,"e'e Ilarauis then read statements from the evidence
in tBrW whitt was the deficiency of the supply of water
'e Poorer parts of the metropolis; and how easily and
seetTslTY that evil could be remedied.) Mr. Hawksley, of
est.L'eottingham water-works, stated that before the
~,talishment of those works, the people bought their
eo'n at the rate of +de id., or id, per bucket, according
au the distance from which it was brought, But now he
neat 79,000 gall() is of water at a cost of IL Now,
watt to the supply of air, an abundant supply of pure
er was most essential to the preservation of health.
attewis:lled most earnestly to press this subject on the
lle,tletzun of the House and the Government, for he be-
nethe eu that there was no equally industrious population in
e World undergoing so much physical suffering from
!
eet of these matters than the people of the United
eieet(lem. Of course in saying that be took into ac-
evils . the difference of climate which aggravated those
en3to the United Kingdom. But he had visited great
dut,inb :" of the hits of the neerees in the West Indies
• t! the tin e of slavery, and he could confirm that an
piaLwphelneing outcry would be raised against any
,ivv,",Lrr who would lodge his negroes in such wretehed
etie"(:'bgi as he hal visited within the last few days. In
Children in Shoreditch he found a woman with five
ill of fever. She paid Is. 6d. a week for the
ag°,:t Six weeks ago she was confined ; five weeks
er husband died of fever ; and during the illness
ii3difst,henevrents the children had to procure water from a
haciaely of a quarter or half a mile; f( r the water eons, any
the cotti off the supply of water from all the houses in
tween two years ago (in consequence of a quarrel be-
e two landladies who owned the court as to who
afell,„°llel:cleyay the rate. In that whole court, with so many
there was but one privy, and there was no sewer
eue"e`.,,i quarter of a mile distant. He would not oc-
sewwuiiethh tshuerpmany details of this kind with
_n re he rwas p ovided. He visited a place called
wit
assed all that he had seen
e:lllPisee je;ree (1)1u0r tu,
wee e He might well say with the poet, that it
a Place
14 where flags the noontide air, and as we PUS
tetbWe fear to breathe the putrifying mass."
litni'reeti was somewhat differently situated ; there '
he n tio crowded a population and one ardens
re which eleowed that they were' capable sawof enjoyingg
.tuitnore refined state of life if they were protected. But ;
*me knee deficiency and neglect produced the 5a1116 evils I

here as elsewhere. There was a vast pool of stag-
nant ,vat,•r—a reservoir of contagion—in Lamb's-field,
nnd a la*.dow-a•r in she npighbonthood used a stagnant
dit ;11 t;• keep ,he 1) y out of his fielck and save the ex-
p•-•nse of a let,ce, althou,A he thus spread disease t rough
the neighbourhood. These were things that ought not
;to be delayed. It was the opini•,n of Sir Robert Swirke,
! and others, that the Govertunent could form a general

plan which could be easily and effectually acted— upon.
It was said that these evils were the necessary atten-
dants upon poverty. But he denied that it was so, and
the rep.art of Dr. Arnott showed that the mortality in
the great manufacturing towns, such as Manchester,
Gla-gow, Sce., was n.atrly doable in seasons of abundant
work and wages, than what occurred in seasons
of scarce work and scarcity of food. Here he
would ref with pleasure to what occurred in
Dundee, and which was highly creditable to the indus-

trious artisans of that plaCe. A Mr. Simp-on, a gentle-
!
man of great talents and benevolence, delivered lectures
to them upon the importance of air, cleanliness, &c. to
health. The consequence was, that those artisans united
t > establish baths for their own use. He hoped that this
example a ould be followed elsewhere. (The Noble Marquis
then read statistical calculations by Mr. M'Culloch, Mr.
Lewis, and Mr. Hawkesley, to shoal' that in the fifty
towns already referred to, there was a loss of 12,000,000/
per annum occasioned by sickness alone ; and if the
metropolis and other towns were added to the list, the
whole loss to the labouring class from contagious disease
alone, arising from this neglect, would be upwards of
30,000,0001) In Preston, out of eighty cases of fever, it
appeared from the report of the medical gentlemen, that
four slept in one bed, and only thirty-five had separate
beds for each patient. He admitted that while the la-
bouring classes were obliged to lodge in this way, it
would be of little use to attempt to improve their
physical condition. And it appeared, from the reports,
that no amelioration could take place in their condition
until there was some limitation as to hours. Until that
could be effected, the females of the labouring classes
could not attend to domestic duties, or be fitted to pre-
serve their homes healthy and comfortable. In Ashton-
under-Lyne, Lord Stamford inserted in his leases clauses
to enforce certain sanatory regulations. But, notwith-
standing that advantage, it appeared, from the evidence
of Mr. Colecott, that the mortality of children was
greater in Ashton-under-Lyne than in any of the other
towns, occasioned by the unavoidable neglect of the
mothers, who were at work in the factories. The remedy
for this would be, obviously, that the mother should
work fewer hours of the day, and sacrifice a portion of
the wages, to attend to her domestic duty. Forty years
ago, all those evils were shown to exist in Liverpool, by
Dr. Duncan, who pointed out the natural remedies. Yet
at this moment Liverpool was the unhealthiest
town of all. He had endeavoured, and he
hoped successfully, to prove that there ought
to be no further delay. He trusted that their Lordships
would show that after two years they had not repented
of their good intentions. He would not interfere in their
legislation upon this subject, because he was convinced
that any measure must be taken up and carried out by
the Executive Government in order to be effective. He
therefore entreated them now, at the end of the session,
before they returned to their own splendid homes, to
approach the Sovereign, and assure her that " you retain
your sympathy with the most patient, most industrious,
most neglected,land suffering of her Majesty's subjects."—
(Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis concluded by moving
an address to the Crown, praying her Majesty to order
a measure to be introduced on the subject of the sanatory
condition of the people early in the next session.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH was conscious of the
great importance of this subject. But he did not
think that the Government was to blame for
the delay that had taken place. The Bill brought
in by the Noble Marquis passed through this House, but
was dropped in the other. After that the present Go-
vernment appointed a Commission of Sanatory Inquiry,
and the Commissioners had discharged the duty assigned
to them with great care and assiduity. He could not
ad nit that the time spent in that inquiry was wasted.
They had directed their attention to the laws already in
existence bearing upon the sanatory condition of towns,
and they had found that there could be a great deal
more done under the existing laws than bad been done.
For instance, with respect to the sewerage. There were
many parts of the metropolis in which the sewerage was
excellent; in others, it was very defective. But he be-
lieved that the Commissioners were in doubt whether
they had the power of making new sewers, thinking
that their powers were limited to the repairing of old
sewers. The Commissioners had arrived at the conclu-
sion that street sewerage was of little use without house
drainage; whereas, in many places, there were good
sewers running down the middle of the streets without
any communication with the houses. Another subject to
which they had attended was the supply of water—
a subject of the greatest importance to the health of
towns. They found that in some parts of the metropolis
the deficiency was disgraceful. Mr. Hawkesley had
shown them that the people of Nottingham were sup-
plied abundantly with water at the expense of only Id.
per week for each family. The water was wanted not
for domestic purposes only, but for cleansing the drains
and sewers.—(Hear, hear.) In Islington a very excel-
lent plan was adopted for " plushing" the sewers with
water and thoroughly cleansing them. But in other
places some strange regulations were in force respecting
the sewers. It was positively forbidden to sweep into
the sewers any portion of the filth of the street ; and it
was also strictly forbidden to make any communication
between the cess-pools and the sewers.—(Hear, hear.)
These were matters which called for the interference of
the Legislature. But there was great difficulty in dealing
with these subjects. For instance, there were, some time
ago, 30,000 persons living in cellars in Liverpool. Now
the buildings in Liverpool and the neighbourhood in-
creased in fair proportion to the increase of the popula-
tion. Yet if these 30,000 persons were ejected from the
cellars they could find no place to go to. Their present
dwellings were bad enough ; still it would be worse to
have no roof over them at all. However, a Bill was
passed for the purpose, and on the Ist of July they
ought to have been all ejected ; but it could not be done,
and the law was inoperative. Nor was it in those poorer
neighbourhoods alone in the metropolis and the large
towns that the people were packed more closely than
they ought to be. It was proved before the Committee
that in the immediate neighbourhood even of Grosvenor-
square people were crowded together in one room, and
in one bed, to the great injury of morals as well as of
health. He mentioned this to show the great difficidy
of legislating on these subjects. Perhaps one of the
greatest difficulties in all sanatory regulations was its
expensiveness. It had been suggested that much
might be done to get over that difficulty by
a consolidation of the rates. On this subject and
others, such as the supply of water and the construc-
tion and management of sewers, the most valuable in-
formation had- been offered to the Commission by Dr.
Arnott, Mr. Hawkesley, and the other gentlemen ex-
amined. Indeed, those gentlemen had received the
thanks of the functionaries who were engaged in France
in similar inquiries. A further cause of delay was the
necessity for a complete survey, before any practical
measure should be taken, and that requisite would be
found in the Ordnance survey, which was now in
progress. He would not trespass longer on the time of
the House, although there were many points in the
Noble Marquis's speech which were well worthy of their
Lordships' deep consideration. He would only observe
that the mortality of children in the manufacturing
towne was occasioned, not by the want of ventilation,
but by the excessive administration of opiates to keep
them quiet in the absence of the parents. With regard
to the address proposed by the Noble Marquis, he was
sorry he could not support it, for he did not seo that it
could effect any good, whereas it seemed to be a censure
upon the Government for alleged delay.—(Hear, hear.)
No man could be more anxious than he was to promote
sanatory measures, but it was necessary to take time for
the preparation of measures, so as to avoid such a failure
as occurred in the case of Liverpool, when a sanatory
act, obtained at great expense, had proved quite inope
rative. He believed that within a reasonable time the
Commission would complete their report, so that early
next session it would be in the power of the Govern-
ment to propose some measures, founded on the report,
to either this or the other House of Parliament. He
would move the previous question..
A messenger from the Commons brought up the Joint-
Stock Companies Regulation Bill and several other
Bills.

The Marquis of NORMANBY did not think that the
Noble Duke had made out a sufficient reason for the
delay of the report. However, as he had the expecta-
tion held out that sanatory measures founded on the re •
port Would be laid before Parliament next session, he
would not press his motion, but would leave it in their
Lordships' hands.
Th 6 Duke of WELLINGTON said that the Govern-
ment were not to blame for the delay. When the Noble
Marquis brought forward his sanatory measures, being a
Minister of the Crovin, he (the Duke of Wellington) and
those who were now in her Majesty's Government, sup-
ported the Nob. Marquis.—(Hear, hear.) No time had
since been lost ; and, under these circumstances, he
thought the Hous,l might have been spared the pain of
being called upon to vote an address, which could not be
looked upon as any other than a censure on the Govern-
ment, who had applied themselves earnestly to the
subj( et.
The Marquis of NORMANBY had no intention of
casting censure upon the Government.
The previous question was then carried, and the ad-
dress was lost.

The Bills on the table were advanced a stage.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at Nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 26.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Twelve o'clock.

The Piccadilly Improvement Bill, Wilson's Estate
Bill, the Bishop of London's Estate Bill, and Gaper's
Divorce Bill, were read a second time, and ordered to be
committed.

Mr. PARBY presented a petition from Surrey against
any alteration in the corn-laws.
.Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL presented seventy-five peti-
tions from various parts of Ireland, in favour of a repeal
of the legislative union between England and Ireland.
CONTIIOVERTED ELECTIONS BILL.
Mr. GREENE brought up the report upon this Bill.
On the motion that the amendments of the Committee
be agreed to,
Mr. V. SMITH said this Bill contained the same
error which pervaded all former Bills on this subject—
namely, that of considering controverted elections as a
matter between two contending parties, and not as a
matter affecting the public generally. He regretted
that the number of Membere on Committees on contro-
verted elections had been fixed at five. Tea thought it
would have been rntigh more convenient to have 44r.4e
urea the number of Merahers to be on these Commit
toes, He thought that some means Ought to be adopted
to iii it tie oxpepsp of pplichxcting an opposition to a pe
tition. Ey the present constitution of the bar fqi• election
Committees, that bar was vprfr limited and the conse-
quence was, that one eminent cQnnse Kai frequently
engaged on half-a-dozen Committees M 9s!r SP WAG

a speech in one Committee and then ran off to another,
and the consequence was, that a number of junior counsel
were engaged to conduct the other parts of the case.
Although this Bill effected a slight improvement, yet he
could not support the principle upon which it was rounded.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET did not see why
the services of an eminent counsel should be confined to
one Committee. Although the Right Hon. Gentleman
had objected to this Bill, yet he had suggested nothing
in its place.
The amendments were then agreed to.
SAVINGS BANKS BILL.

On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. HUME complained that uniformity had not been
observed in this Bill with respect to the payment ofin-
terest on deposits. He also complained that the original
intention with respect to the establishment of savings'
banks had not been carried out. Savings' banks were
established for the benefit of the working classes, but
persons of all descriptions had been allowed to become
depositors in savings' banks. He complained of the
amount of salaries to persons employed as managers and
clerks in the savings banks of the country. Many
abuses had crept into our system of savings-banks, and
he was sorry to find that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had not endeavoured to remedy them. Pro-
bably—and no doubt this was the case—the Chancellor
was ignorant of the existence of these abuses ; but he
(Mr. Hutne) assured him that he had paid a great deal
of attention to the subject, and he had discovered many
abuses which ought to be remedied as early as possible.
He was anxious to check the practice of persons of the
better classes being allowed to become depositors.
These persons were allowed to deposit 201. or 301., and
receive interest upon it at once, whilst the poor man,
who deposited his few shillings at a time, received no
interest until his deposits had reached a certain sum in
the aggregate.
Mr. I)ARBY thought this Bill would prove very
beneficial.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed
in much that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose, but it should be recollected that Parliament had
not originated savings' banks. It had, however, given
encouragement to them when they were once formed,
and had conferred upon them a degree of security which
they had not before possessed. There were two great
abuses which were likely to arise in connection with
savings' banks. The first was, that the high rate of
interest would hold out an inducement to per-
sons to deposit moneys in those banks, for
whose benefit or use they were never intended.
The whole number of depositors under 201. was
only six per cent. of the whole number of de-
positors. The other evil which was likely to arise was,
that if the rate of interest was low it would tend to en-
courage extravagance on the part of the banks. The
best mode of guarding against both those abuses, was to
make the rate of interest given by the savings' banks
lower than what could be obtained if money was
invested in other public securities. At the dif-
ferent rates of interest given by the banks
of deposit, he did not think it was an ob-
jectionable feature in the present system ; but,
at all events, it was unavoidable. The Right
Hon. Gentleman went on to show by documentary evi-
dence that the public was rather a gainer than a loser
by the management at present adopted. Ho proposed to
raise the maximum rate of interest from 2/. 15s. as ori-
ginally intended to 31—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROTHERTON thought that every encourage-
ment should be given to those establishments for the
sake of the industrious labourers. He thought that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer would do well to raise the
maximum rate of interest to 3/. 10s.

Mr. DIVETT thought that the savings' banks were
conducted on the whole, so as to give satisfaction. He
entirely approved of the principle on which the Bill was
founded, and he thought that the greatest credit was due
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the attention
which he had given to the subject.
Mr. LABOUC HERE approved on the whole of the
principle of the Bill, and he agreed with the Hon. Gen-
tleman that the greatest credit was due to the Right Hon.
Gentleman for the attention which he had devoted to the
subject. He thought that the raising of the rate of in-
terest to 34 would give general satisfaction. He hoped
that the smaller banks would be enabled to afford this
rate of interest as well as the larger establishments.
Col. RUSIIBROOKE thought that the raising of the
rate of interest to 31. would give satisfaction. He thought
that every assistance should be given to the smaller
banks.

After a few words from Mr. HAwas and Mr. B.
ESCOTT, the House went into Committee, bfr. GREENE in
the chair.

On clause 1 being proposed,
Sir E. COLEBROOKE said it was considered that
10s. for the management was too much, and ss. too little.
lie wished to know whether the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer would not allow 3L 6s. Bd., that was 31. for in-
terest and 6s. Bd. for the management ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
they would regulate the rate of interest given by the
savings bank, according to the general interest allowed
by other general securities. He thought that 31. ss. was
suffivient.

Mr. HUME thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer
was quite right. Ho hoped he would not be induced to
allow more than 31. ss.

Sir T. D. ACLAND thought the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ought to allow 31. Os. 10d. as interest. He
also thought that it was due to the smaller banks that a
higher sum than ss. ought to be allowed for manage-
ment. He thought that 6s. Bd. was little enough ; and
any person who knew anything of those savings' banks
must be of the same opinion. He should propose that
6s. Rd. should be allowed.
Mr. LABOUC HERE said that if the Hon. Baronet
the Member for Devonshire divided the Committee on
his proposition, that the sum for management should be
6s. Bd., he would support him in that proposition.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
that those who proposed 3/ 6s. Bd. could not have suffi-
ciently considered the relation in which the Government
stood with regard to savings banks. They stood in the
situation of a solvent banker, and they could not allow
a higher rate of interest than the most solvent banker
could afford. On those grounds he felt bound to adhere
to the original proposition of 3L ss.
Colonel RUSHI3ROOKE thought that 31. 6s. Bd. was
little enough.
Mr. B. DENISON hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would adhere to his
proposition.
Mr. HAWES moved that Si. 6s. Bd. be substituted
for 31. ss.

Lord CLIVE supported the amendment.
Mr. HUME said that if the Right Hon. Gentleman
made the minimum interest 21. 18s. 4d., instead of the
maximum 31., it would leave a margin of 6s. Bd. for the
management.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
not agree to the proposition of the Hon. Member for
Montrose. He thought it would prevent the establish-
ment of new banks.

Mr. B. DENISON did not think that a difference
of ls. Bd. would prevent the establishment of new
banks.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUMS opposed to any maximum. He did
not see why the banks should not pay 31. 4s. if they
could afford it.—(Hear.)
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 2O
Against it 5l
Majority —3l
The clause was then agreed to, and ordered to stand
part of the Bill.
On clause 2, which fixes the maximum rate of interest
at 31., being proposed,
Mr. HUME proposed, as an amendment, that there
should be a minimum of 21. 18s. 4d., instead of a maxi-
mum of 31.

Mr. B. DENISON supported the amendment.
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 3,4, and 5 were also put, and agreed to.
Clause 6 was agreed to, after a short discussion.
Clauses up to 12 were agreed to, after some verbal
amendments.
Clause 13 was agreed to with a few verbal amend-
ments, as were clauses up to 20.
The remaining clauses were agreed to; the House re-
sumed, and the report was ordered to be brought up on
Monday.

NEW WRIT.
A new writ was ordered to issue for the borough of
Cirencester, in the room of T. Master, Esq., who had
accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
WINDOW DUTY.
Captain PECHELL wished to know whether unglazed
lights, for sanatory purposes, were subject to the window
duty ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
give no opinon on the subject.
BOOKS AND ENGRAVINGS BILL.

The House then went through Committee on the
Books and Engravings Bill, and the report was ordered
to be brought up on Monday.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
place in Ireland against the Charitable Bequests (Ire-
land) Bill ; also a petition from St. Luke's, signed by
6,000 ratepayers, praying for the release of Daniel
O'Connell, Esq., and his fellow prisoners.

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice, that on Monday, he
should move that the salaries of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners be reduced to 1,0001 each ; and that the salaries
of Assistant Poor-law Commissioners be reduced to
4001. a year each.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM then moved the third read-
ing of the Poor-law Amendment Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to oppose the motion. He
regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Trea-
sury bench, to whom he was anxious to give his sup-
port, and of whose talents and integrity he entertainer)
the highest opinion, should have considered it his duty
to force forward this Bill in such a manner. He was
surprised to find that the Right Lion. Gentleman thought
it right, at the last moment, to refuse him (Colonel Sib-
thorp) the return for which he had moved on the sub-
ject of the Poor-law Commissioners. They received
large sums of the public money, even the Assistant
Commissioners had 7001. a-year each, which was
more than the pay of officers in the army and
navy. He desired to know how that money had been
applied, and he would tell Hon. Gentlemen that it must
come out.—(A. laugh.) He hoped Hon. Gentlemen
opposite would assist him in opposition to this Bill.
Mr. B. COCHRANE was glad to find that there were
Hon. Members found to discuss this Bill, and to propose
amendments in it, notwithstanding the lateness of the
period at which it had been brought forward,
notwithstanding the disinclination of the Go-
vernment to discuss the condition of the
poor of this country, and in spite of the taunts and
sneer; thrown out by Hon. Members behind the Treasury
benches against thqse who ventured to occupy the time
of the ll.use. Tkis very Bill was a confession that
kitherto they had 4,,en legislating on a bad system ;
and with regard to the two great points of out-cf:mF
relief, and of the separation of man and wife, on which his
.119n,Tri9nd the gep-iitip! for E. veskara hid brought Tor=

ward a motion, the Right Hon. Gentleman was obliged
to confess that they had departed from the principles of
the Bill. The present poor law had not checked paupe-
rism. It increased with our population. and every im-
provement in oer m ale factures lessenel tie demand for
labour and increased pauperism. Ile had met with a
fanciful supposition the other day that the Pyramids had
been built to find work for the poor. But now every
thing was done to throw them out of work. At the
great agr-cultural meeting the other day, the Prussian
Ambassador stated that the King of Prussia had said,
h or happy a country England must be where old things
wore as new, and where the new were identified with
the old. He should like to know how this new
poor-law was identified with old things, and what
hold it had on the sympathies of the people?
He thought this measure ought to form the principal
consideration of her Majesty's Government at an early
period of the next session. He believed that the time
was not far distant when they would be obliged to repeal
the law altogether. If he lived till the next session he
should give any measure founded upon the principles of the
present law his deoided opposition.
Mr. HUME thought that it was to be regretted that
lion. Members who talked of the prejudices of the
people to this measure should in that House do all they
could to fan that prejudice. He believed that the great
cause of complaint in the measure was that its provisions
were not properly carried out. With regard to the
Commissioners they had a most ardent and difficult
duty to perform, and he could only say, being
one of the Committee that sat in 1838,
when an inquiry was made into the conduct of the Com-
misioners, that the result of the deliberation of that Com-
mittee was a recommendation to continue the Commis-
sioners in preference to any other tribunal Those who
were anxious for the condition of the poor ought to
adopt far different measures to those, which were cal-
culated to increase their disaffection.
Mr. HARDY hailed the present measure with pecu-
liar delight, because it was calculated to take away a
great number of the severities from the present measure.
He tendered his best thanks to the Government for the
manner in which they had proposed their alterations to
the Bill, and he trusted that it would give satisfaction to
the country.
Mr. BORTHWICK said that whatever might be the
' ultimate effect of machinery, it could not be denied that
it inflicted a great evil in transitu which fell very heavily
on the poor. With regard to the present Bill, it
was about to become the law of the land,
and he sincerely hoped that everything that
would be now said respecting it would tend
to make it work well, and for the benefit of those to
whom it was to be applied. He was confident that the
Right Hon. Secretary of State had acte.l throughout
from the purest motives, and they must all feel indebted
to him for the ability he had displayed, and the
courtesy with which he had listened to the suggestions of
those who had felt it their duty to make them. He
was convinced that the machinery of the Act had been
worked so as to produce an effect the reverse of what the
authors of the Bill intended ; and he expressed a hope
that the recent declaration of Sir J. Graham would in-
duce gentlemen more readily to act as guardians of the
gpoor tßhial they had hi
therto dn. He
a two
was
set
say,o believedas faras iti
t was a
went.
—(Oh, oh.) But it was not extensive enough entirely to
reform the evils of which they complained. But as far
as it went it ameliorated the condition of the poor, and
admitted at least the defects of the existing law.
Mr. WAKLEY said he believed the magistrates
throughout the country were generally aware that
they had the power of ordering relief to old per-
sons, provided one magistrate would certify, of his own
knowledge, that they required it. But what the magis-
trates complained of was, that they could not order the
amount of relief or its quality. It might be given
either in money or in food, and might be so stinted as to
force the recipients into the house to save themselves
from starvation. With respect to the Bill, he did not
think the Government could complain of any unjust
opposition having been offered to it, considering the late
period of the session to which it had been delayed. The
alterations that had been made in it would work well
for the poor, and he should cordially vote for the third
reading. He regretted that such observations as those
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Bridport
should be made in that House. It was too late in the
day now to exclaim against machinery ; the supposition
that it destroyed human labour was a great fallacy. On
the contrary, it created it to an enormous extent.
The regulation of machinery was another question, and
it should only be dealt with by wise and experienced
heads.—(Hear, hear.) The principle of the law
of 1834, the workhouse test, was now gone ; for the
Right Hon. Gentleman told them that seven out
of eight persons received out-door relief. He believed
the new poor-law had been productive of very great
disadvantage in one respect. It had been asserted
in that House and other places, that there ought
to be no poor law at all. He was afraid that this
feeling had worked its way into various classes of
society. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that if the
Poor-law Commissioners did their duty, they would be
the protectors of the poor. It was quite clear the poor
needed protection somewhere, and he hoped they would
receive it from the Poor-law Commissioners. The
declarations as to there being no necessity
for a poor-law had had a pernicious effect on the
rate-payers and the guardians. He believed
the ex officio guardians were in favour of far more strin-
gent regulations than the elected guardians.—(Hear,
hear.)' The attempts made to reduce the salaries
of medical officers and other persons had driven the
Commissioners to resort to an expedient which he could
not but call most preposterous. He begged the atten-
tion of the House for a moment to this matter ; it was
the most curious in medical history. They had all
heard the expression, no doubt, " No cure, no pay."
With reference to the payment of medical men, the
guardians had been so stingy and so niggardly, that,
in order to give medical men an emolument somewhat
approaching to their circumstances, the Commissioners
had hit upon the expedient of giving extra pay under
peculiar circumstances. Well, now, what were those
peculiar circumstances ? " For the amputation of a leg,
5L ; for the amputation of an arm, 51. ; for the ampu-
tation of a foot, 51. ; for the amputation of a hand, 51.,"
&c. Thus, for cutting off a lamb, which was one of
the simplest operations in surgery, and which took only
a few minutes, the operator generally mot requiring to
see the patient more than half a dozen times subse-
quently, the remuneration was 51. Now, for a
bruise requiring the utmost care and skill to
prevent mortification, and surgical attendance day
as
He believed that, if the Commissioners
by day, perhaps, for weeks and months what was
the extra remuneration ? Not one farthing.—(Hear,
—(Hear, hear.)
anything so preposterous ever heard of ?
—(Hear,had the power of giving adequate remuneration to
medical men, they would never have adopted such a
preposterous scale. No men made greater sacrifices for
the sake of the poor than medical men, but, by the pre-
sent system, they were laid open to the most unjustifiable
imputations. He knew an instance in which a man who
had his feet frostbitten had been taken into a work-
house; the surgeon had recommended amputation, avid
another surgeon who had been called in consultation, also
recommended it; the man refused to submit, and Nature
had since performed the operation, for a part of the feet
had sloughed off. Now that surgeon had been exposed
most unjustly to the imputation of having wished to
perfArm a needless operation. He hoped the Commis-
sioners would, in everycase, insist on boards of guardians
properly remunerating medical men, and then there would
be no necessity for the introduction of such a novel system.
He hoped, if other alterations should be found necessary,
the Government would introduce a Bill next session, and
the sensible portion of the public would be thankful to
them for their exertions.
Mr. BICK HAM ESCOTT thought it would be diffi-
cult to say whether the general effects of the law had done
harm or good. In some unions in which it had reduced
the rates, it had reclaimed a vagabond population, whilst
in others the rates had been increased, and both rate-
payers and paupers were dissatisfied. He congratulated
the Right Hon. Gentleman on having introduced such a
useful scheme of education into the present Bill—a
scheme which contained all the good but none of the
evil of the education measure of last year. With re-
gard to out-door relief, as the subject was important, he
would again state what he had previously said on the
subject. As had been remarked by the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, two justices possessed the power of order-
ing out-of-door relief to old people out of work. But
the beard of guardians also possessed the power in cases
of emergency. The Commissioners had excepted from
their prohibitory order all cases of sudden and urgent
necessity, leaving it entirely to the boards of guardians to
determine what cases were cases of sudden and urgent
necessity.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the law
had caused the recent calamitous events in Suffolk and
Norfolk; that the peasantry, goaded to desperation, had,
out of a spirit of revenge,destroyed the property of their
superiors—J:le did not believe that such a state of baleful
feeling existed among the peasantry of this country.
They knew that everywhere labour was the lot of the
multitude, and that the lot of ease was that of a few only;
and they also knew that attempts of this kind would only
aggravate their sufferings, and end by bringing on them
the vengeance of the law, for he trusted that the law
would always be found strong enough to vindicate the
rights of property. He was satisfied that they never
would have an economical system for the relief of the
poor until they returned to parochial divisions—(Hear)
—or at least until they had smaller divisions than the
unions now in existence ; and he would quote the autho-
rity ofWellington in support of his argu-
ment. Learned Member then quoted the
opinion of the Duke of Wellington, which was to the
effect that the present law was only for the purpose of
bringing back the law of the 43d of Elizabeth. He
the
The Dukeo
n. of
and
begged again to express his sincere pleasure at the fe-
licitous termination of this Bill, and the improvements
which it had undergone in Committee.
Captain PECHELL asserted that the people of
Brighton, however their opinions might have been mis-
represented, were entirely averse to the interference of
the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. BANKES said, notwithstanding the changes
which had taken place in the poor-law during the pre-
sent session, it must not be considered that the question
was finally settled. It would be open to every Hon.
Member in future sessions to propose further modifica.
tions. Among the defects of the present measure was
the immense extent of some of the unions, which was
in all respects disadvantageous and inconvenient to the
poor, but in none more than the difficulty of obtaining
medical aid, which the extent of these unions in
most cases involved. He hoped it would be found prac-
ticable to limit the expense of the machinery of the
system. With these observations, and congratulating
the House on the improvement which had been made in
the law, he would not trespass further on their attention.
Mr. BARNARD regretted that the Right lion.
Baronet had not conceded the power to two magistrates,
which several Hon. Friends had so strongly pressed
upon the Government.
sir J. Q 11,41011 said the question of medical relief
was under the Consideratioo of a Consrpittee.; ewer Wojeb
Lordesided. He didnot to that or Ashley pr mean say t the

present system of medical relief was perfect, and would
be happy to make such changes in the law on a future
occasion as, with due consideration to economy, would
afford greater accommodation to the poor, and more
a,legdata re.;uin •rat;oll to ords.t.r,. tie el.
deeply indebted to both sides of the House for the
favourable manner in which they had received the Bill,
and tendered every lion. Member his sincere acknow-
ledgments. With respect to the bastardy law, a very full
discussion took place on the power of appeal, in Com-
mittee, and the Bill contained the almost unanimous
opinion of that Committee. He would not trespass
further on the attention of the House.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the third reading of the
Turnpike Trusts Bill.
After a few observations from Viscount EBRINGTON
and Mr. CRIPPS, the Bill was read a third time.
JOINT-STOCK BANKS REGULATION BILL.
This Bill was read a third tithe, and passed.
The Transfer of Licenses (Post-horses) Ireland Bill
was read a third time and passed.
GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS (IRELAND)