The Sun.
London, England, 1850-07-30 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVRNING, JULY Ao, 1850.
1411-1 E SUN.

IMPERIAL PARLIAIVIENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, July 29.
Their Lordships met shortly before Fore o'clock.
ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the
undermentioned Bills:—
Court of Session (Scotland).
Lareny Summary Jurisdiction.
Upton-cum-Chalvey Marriages Validity.
Naval Prize Balance.
Convict PrisonF.
Population (Ireland).
Linen and Manufactures (Ireland).
Incorporation of Boroughs Confirmation (so. 2).
Loan Socities.
Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction.
Militia Ballots Suspension.
Court of Chancery (County Palatine of Lancaster).
Manchester Rectory Division.
Court of Exchequer (Ireland).
Militia Pay.
Stock in Trade.
Shipwrecked Fiihermen and Mariners Benevolent So-

ciety.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne and Carlisle Rsilway.
Wolverhampton Waterworks Act (Amendment and
Extension of Works).
British Electric Telegraph Company.
Liverpool Corporation Waterworks (Extension of Time,

&c:).
Dundalk and Enniskillen Railway.
Borough of Salford Waterworks and Improvement.
Bradford Improvement (Police and Purchase and Closing
of Bradford Canal).
Newcastle. upon-Tyne Improvement (Amendment of Acts
and New Streets).
Commercial Gas Company and Poplar Gas Light Com-

an
Aberdeen Railway.
Cromford and Newhaven Turnpike Road.
Rochdale, through Bamford and Birtle to Bury, and
other Turnpike Roads.
Surrey and Sussex Roads.
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway.
Godstone and Highgate Turnpike Road.
Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland.
Timber Preserving Company.
Earl of Shrewsbury's and Grace's Trustees Estate.
St. Thomas's Hospital Estate.
The Lords Commissioners were the Loan CHANCELLOR,
the Earl of CARLISLE, and the Earl of Mirro.
Their Lordships then adjourned during pleasure.

Their Lordships resumed shortly after Five o'clock.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented several
petitions from various congregations in Scotland against
the Marriages Bill.
Earl TALBOT gave notice that on Friday he should
call the attention of their Lordships to the subject of
emigration to Australia.
TURNPIKE ACTS CONTINUANCE BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
CANTERBURY SETTLEMENT LANDS BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee.
BILLS OF EXCHANGE BILL.
Lord EDDISBURY moved the second reading of this
Bill.
Lord MONTEAGLE objected to these partial and
temporary repeals of the usury laws, and thought the
subject should be legislated for permanently.
Lord BROUGHAM entirely agreed with his Noble
Friend who had last spoken. He thought some perma-
nent change in the law was absolutely necessary. He
believed that the practical effect of the usury laws was
to raise the rate of interest to the landowner who wanted
to raise money on mortgage.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE agreed that this Bill
was a Bill in favour of the landed proprietors.—(" Hear,
hear," from Lord Brougham.) No inconvenience
had resulted from the- suspension of the usury laws.
As this Bill had come up from the other House in its
present state, he would not interfere with it; but he be-
lieved it was regarded by all persons as absurd to attempt
to revert to the old usury laws.
The Bill was then read a second time.
PROVISION FOR THE PRINCE OF WALES.—

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE then brought down
a Message from her Majesty, recommending that Marl-
borough-house should be settled on the Prince of Wales
after ho shall have attained eighteen years of age. He
gave notice that he should to-morrow call the attention
of the House to this subject.
OFFICERS OF THE HOUSE.
The NOBLE MARQUIS also gave notice that he should
to-morrow call the attention of their Lordships to the
salaries of the officers of the House, with a view to their
revision.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION BILL.

The—Marquis of CANSIJOWNE moved that the or-
der of the day for the consideration of the Commons'
amendment to this Bill be discharged.—Agreed to.

EMIGRANT SHIPS.
The Earl of MOUNTCASIiELL drew the attention
of the House to the fact, that a man named W. Pleyer,
who was a passenger on board an emigrant-ship from
Liverpool, on board of which were 490 passengers, had
had his arm, which was broken by accident, amputated by
an unprofessional person with a carving-knife, and in
consequence of which he died, and asked if it was in-
tended
to make a bye-law incumbent on all emigrant
ships to carry a surgeon?
Earl GREY said that emigrant ships going to North
America were not required to carry surgeons. The
Hemisphere, en board which the accident happened, was
not required to carry a surgeon, but on board the
ship there chanced to be a German surgeon,
who operated with a carving knife and afterwards
dressed the wound; the man was afterwards landed and
removed to the Liverpool Hospital where he died, but
the accident which had occurred to him was of such a
severe character that no surgical aid, it was understood,

could have sand his -
The E.rl of MOUN 11CASHELL thought that all
emigrant ships should be compelled To carry surgk ous.
Earl GREY said this was an accident that happened
not to an emigrant. but to a sailor, and it might have
happened to any sailor of any vessel navigating the
Mersey. He would have no objection to produce the
report of the Emigration Commissioners on the subject.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHELL moved for the re-
port.
Aftcr a few words from the Marquis of BREA-
DALBANE, the mi,tion was agreed to.
LEASEHOLD TENURE Or' LAND (IRELAND)

desiring to be sworn on the Oid Testament, the question
was whether be could be admitted to be sworn in that
ferns, it being perfectly clear that one of those oaths,
namely, the oath of abjuration, containing the
words "on the true faith of a Christian," could
not be taken in the Jewish form. This would
be an important consideration which the House
would please to bear in mind in arriving at a
conclusion as to whether Baron Rothschild, having de-
sired to be sworn upon the Old Testament, had not con-
cluded the question against himself, and prevented the
House from ever altering any more the form of the
oaths; that having been called to the table he had de•
dined to take the oaths in a manner which showed that
he entirely dissented from the oath of abjuration. He
hoped to be able to prove to the House that this was not
a question depending upon the law and usage of
Parliament, but upon the law of the land. He should be
able to show the House that according to statute it
was impossible for any Member to be sworn at that
table upon the Old Testament. In order to clear the
way for discussion, he would concede to those who were
desirous to have Baron Rothschild sworn in the form
which he himself had proposed, that from the
vary earliest period in our courts of justice Jews
had been sworn both as witnesses mad jurors.
Before the banishment of the Jews, in the reign of
Edward 1., there had been many transactions between
Jews and Christians, and these had led to litigations be-
tween them, and it was therefore absolutely necessary
that Jews should be sworn, unless the courts bad been
prepared entirely to refuse justice to persons of that
persuasion. Accordingly. it was the custom to have
juries composed half of Christians, who were called
sex probos et legales homines, and the other
half of Jews, called sex legales Jamas. So
far it was true that Jews had been admitted to be
sworn according to the form of their religion, and to
the form 'which they considered as most binding on their
consciences. There were many instances of this in the
reins of John and Henry 111., but it was observ-
able, with regard to the oath, that there was no
Act of Parliament peescribing the form of oath, but
from the earliest periOd it had been the custom
of the judges to vary the Wm in order to meet the dif-
ferences of consciences, until ae last it was decided by
• the Chancellor and the three chief judges, that a
Geatoo could be sworn in a court of justice. But
it was observable that although the judges varied the
form of oath to meet the exigencies of the occasion,
' they were not at liberty to dispense with the
cub, and it was not until the 7th and Bth of Wil.
lima 111. that the affirmation of Quakers was
atlow,ed to be taken. It was a very remarkable thing,
and cue which would assist them presieltly
still fu.•ther in the consideration of the point,
that for 130 years up to . the, 9th of George W.
affirmations were not received in criminal
cases. The le;w with regard to oaths in a court of
justice undoubteelly was, that, ex necessitate, for the
purpose of preventheg justice from being defeated, they
had permitted persons to be sworn in courts of justice
acourdin" to tee term of heir religion, or according to the
form most binding on thole consciences. This was the
case only with regard to assere.ory or juridical oaths, but
did not apply to promissory cabs ; asd his proposi-
tion was, that the principle whisk was sought to
the
be
applied to all oaths in general, upon
radical oaths.
authorities, to be applied solely to it;
Such being the state of the case, he would Lowconsider
what the oaths were that were to be taken. Thcoey wee
not oaths of a juridical character, but weee what
was called promissory oaths, and the question
was whether such being the case, and it being prescribed
that they were to be taken in a particular form, that
form applied to the present case. The oaths of allegi-
ance, supremacy, and abjuration were all required
to be taken by Act of Parliament in the Christian
form, and the form proposed to be adopted on the pre-
sent occasion, which he would call the Jewish form,
was excluded by the terms of the different Acts
of Parliament. They had had the benefit of a
report on the subject, which would very much
facilitate the discussion and determination of Members.
It was true, as had been stated, that the first Act re-
quiring Members of Parliament to take oaths
was the sth of Elizabeth, and by that Act the
oath of supremacy was considered as a corporeal
oath to be taken on the Holy Evangelists. By the 3d.of
James I. Members were required to take tne oath of
allegiance, and that oath, as the Act prescribed
at the end of it, was to be taken on
the true faith of a Christian. Under the 30th of Charles
IL Members were required to take three oaths,
but the manner of taking them was not altered from
that prescribed in the Alta of Elizabeth and James I.
So matters remained tilt Ist William and Mary, when
an Act was passed repealing the 30th of Charles, but
requiring that the oaths substituted should be
taken in the same form as was prescribed by
the Acts of Elizabeth, James 1., and Charles 11.
Was it therefore not clear that the oaths were to. be
taken upon the Evangelists. His friend, the lion. and
Learned Member for the city of Oxford, was not quite
conversant with how Matters stood between the Ist and
13th of William IIL, when he stated that during
that time a Jew might sit in Parliament.
The oath of abjuration, almost in its present form, was
introduced by the 13th and 14th of William 111., and it
contained the words " on the true faith of a Caristian."
Now, all Members of Parliament were required to take
that oath ; they were required to take it, together with
the oaths of allegiance and supremacy, and his Learned
Friend was under a mistake in supposing that there was
any doubt whatever that after the let of William and
M. try, c. 1, there was any necessity for Members of
the flials.e of Commons to be sworn before the Lord
Steward, because his Learned Friend said that the sth
of Elizabeth and the 7th of James the First were nut re.
I 'riled by the let of William and Mary, c. 8, but his
Learned Friend would see, if he turned his attention to
the 30th of Cbarle. IL, that the oath was required to be
taken at thu teble of the House. It seemed to him (Sir
F. Thesiger) throughout quite clear that there was no
necessity fur Meeatiers to take any other oaths than
those provided by the Ist of William and Mary.
He was not aware that this point was one of very great
importance, bat it was necessary they should be correct
as co west was the nature and effect of certain Acts of
Parliament. Now the 13th and 14th of William 111.
introduced the oath of abjuration with the important
words " on the true faith of a Christian," and from the
passing of that statute up to the Ist George 1., to which
their attention would be particularly directed, there
was no substantial alteration in the form of the oaths of
abjuration, at ail events, in regard to this question; and
the oaths which were required to be taken continued to
be these oaths of abjuration and supremacy which were
taken as provided in the Holy Evangelist, and the oath
of abjuration on the true faith of Christians,
which of course could only be taken in a Christian
form.—(Hear.) He now came to the 3d of Geo. 1.,
which contained the three oaths of allegiance, supremacy,
and abjuration, pretty much in the same form in whisks
they were now taken, except with regard to the
alteration provided for in that ~Ict regarding
the oath of abjuration. And the question which
they were now called upon to decide was whether,
in a hiteorical review ef the different statutes on the
subject, the Ist of George I. repealed those Acts which
required the oaths to be taken on the Holy Evangelists.
Now, could it for a moment be considered that the object
of the Legislature was to allow a person to come to the
table of the House, and take these oaths, not in the
Christian form, but in the JeWish form or any other
form which his notions of religion or anything binding
on his conscience may induce him to take?—(Hear.)
Nuw, he would say that the Ist of George IV., following
the other Acts which bad been alluded to, manifested,
as strong as language could, that it was the
intention of the Legislature that the only binding
form in which these oaths . could be taken and ad-
miustered was the Christian form, in which form
it had been taken from the earliest time, and which
had not been interfered with by the Ist of George 111.
Now, suppose there was any doubt as to the legitimate
construction of the Aot of Parliament, they had only to
follow the unquestionable rule of lawyers and decide the
doubt or ambiguity by contempos expositio. Now, what was
the contemporaneous exposition of this Act of Parliament?
Why, they learned from the highest authority in that
House, that from the time of George I. down to the pre-
sent time, this was the first occasion upon which any
person had presented himself at the table of the
House desiring to be sworn by any other
mode than upon the New Testament. Any other
form but the Christian form then would not be binding.
This was not a question depending upon the law
and usages of Parliament. It was a question of
law, expressly fixed and established by Acts
which he had adverted to, and he would venture
to say that no authority in this country could change
that law except with, the authority of the Legisla-
ture.—(Hear, bear.) Now he apprehended his
Honourable and Learned Friend the Member for the
city of Oxford would not dispute that; for in the very
case to which the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man had referred as his leading authority on this
subject, Lord Chief Justice Wells, in his admirable
judgment, agreed with Lord Cuke, that promissory
oaths could only be altered through the interference
of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) But he did not mean
to omit from his consideration of this question an argu-
ment upon which great stress had been laid, arising out
of an Act of Parliament which was mentioned i the
report of the Committee. Very great stressn had
been fairly and properly laid upon taut Act ut Pasha-
went, but he trusted ha should be able to show the
House that it had not the effect upon this question
which was insisted on by the advocates of the other
side. What were the circumstances which gave rise to
the introduction of that Act ? Why, simply these, A
case occurred in Ireland where Dr. Cook, the President
of the Provincial Synod of Ulster bad had his house
broken inte and roubed, and the Doctor happi ned to
be the principal witness in the trial of the
odrouuihn
accused of the robbery Before Mr. Justice L frby. When
teraYbo wuaty. the
he came to be sworn he pr. postal to be sworn by hold-
tug up his heed, and not by kissing the book in the
'mftetteLr,eabruttiendevJeurdthgeeleessntheretastwd
ed theseme
dsctor to be sworn in that way, and reservethe point
for • nt
for the opinion of the twelve
Judges. Ultimately the
twelve Judges decided that the oath was not binding
nor legal. Now it this
Eng-
land, there would case bad arisen in Eng-
that the oath w have been no doubt at all
in a case was perfectly good, because it was decided
as long ago 1657, where the Vice-Chancellor
appealed before Chief Justice Glynn
as a witness. He h objected to kiss the
book, but staled would be , sworn by
having the book open hello
right hand. Chief Justicere Goiimu,nahneddhoillding up his
good oath, and ever since Glynn
' hadtat been
be a
question teat that oath was good which was binding
upon the conscience of the
.party who took it. Now,
tinier those circumstances, Lord Denman thought ii
right to introduce a statute for the purpose of enabling
persons to swear according to the forms which
was binding upon their consciences, but the sta-
tute introduced was what wassailed a declaratory Act,
which was an Act in furtherance of the law

as it already existed. The Acc, which wai in-
troduced on tnat occabion, the Ist and 2d
enacted that in all cases in which oaths nay he lawfally
taken, or shall have been admioistered, either by a
j Layman, or win,,,ss, or a deponent in any
civil or crimival proceeding. or on the

appointment of any person to aey office, or on any occa-
sion whatsoever, such person shall be bound by the oath
which shall be a hniaist, red in the torm which
he says is binding on his conscience. Now,
it would be observed that that was an Act in af-
firmance of the law as it would be declared by the Le-
gislature to have existed.—(Hear, hear.) Hon. Members
knew very well the distinction between affirmatory sta-
tutes, declaring the law, and repealing statutes, altering
the law; and he ventured to contend that that Act of
Parliament had no operation whatever upon any existing
law, and that if any law previously existed by which an oath
was to be taken in any particular form, there was no
abrogation at all of that law, and that it had a declara-
tory and no repealing effect. If the argument was good
for anything it must be carried out to its fullest extent.
Could it be seriously contended that in the case of its
being required of a Member under the Act of George
the First to take the oath of abjuration—that oath con-
taining the words " on the true faith of a Christian"—
that person might say be would take that oath
in a Jewish form ? His Honourable Friend's
argument must go that entire length or it was absolutely
good for nothing. He (Sir F. Thesiger) contended that
affirmative statutes of that kind'would have no operation
on the existing law, much less a repealing operation. It
would be quite unnecessary for him to argue that the
words "on the true faith of a Christian" were essential
or substantial words in that oath of abjuration. It was
quite impossible that any person could take that oath
omitting those words.—(lie .r.) He took it for granted
that Hon. Members were not to be so entirely deprived
of all previous knowledge on this subject; they were
not to have their eyes so entirely shut on this question,
as to be supposed that they wanted the information
that Baron Rothschild was a Jew. But he (Sir F.
Thesiger) would venture to assume that he was of the
Jewish persuasion. He would also venture to call the
attention of Hon. Members to the evidence of Mr. Alder-
man Salomons. The chairman of the Select Committee
asked him what objection he had to the oath of abjuration.
Alderman Salomons replied that he had no objection
whatever to the oath of abjuration, except to the words
"on the true faith of a Christian." He considered it
was quite impossible that the oath could be taken by
Baron Itothachild in the form in which it was put to
hie]. It was a direct presumption against this mode of
striving to introduce Baron Rothschild into the Legisla-
ture without the consent of the Legislature, that nobody
ever dreamt of that course before the present day. The
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had shown
his view, by the introduction of the Bitle which he had
laid upon the table—that he considered that this could
be done only by an Act of the Legislature. He must
call upon the House to pause before it took the present
step, which was one of vital importance. It was ad-
mitted that the occasion was novel and unpre-
cedented—it was perfectly clear that if they admitted
Baron Rothschild to be sworn atter his own mode
they would depart from precedent, and, as he considered,
violate the statutes of the land. They would also be
brought into collision with the courts of law and the
House of Lords. He was quite sure that the Noble Lord
would not think it desirable that this course should be
pursued, unless they were quite certain, it being ad-
mitted that the Acts of Parliament pronounced nothing
decided and express upon the subject. They ought to
consider whether they were prepared for a contest into
which they would go against the authority of law and
precedent, to which he could not help looking forward
with great dissatisfaction. He trusted then he
had fairly submitted his view of the question to
the consideration of the House. He had endeavoured to
avoid dwelling upon extraneous topics. and he had
rested his observations upon the Acts of Parliament, be-
cause it was with reference to these Acts of Parliament
that this question must be decided. He contended that
at the present day no person could claim to be a Mem-
ber of the Legislature without taking the three oaths of
allegiance, supremacy, and abjuration, in the form which
the Legislature had provided, namely, in a Christian
form and in no other form.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, I am anxious to follow the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman, not only because he has
most ably stated the arguments upon this question, upon
which he founds his opinion that Baron Rothschild
ought not to be permitted to take the oaths at
the table of this House upon the Old Testa-
meat, but also because he has treated the subject,
'and I think it can only be treated strictly as a judicial
question. Before I sit down I may have to notice some
representations which have been made to this House to
induce it to treat the question in a different spirit; but
at present I shall refer immediately to the arguments
of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. He has
laid it down that oaths promissory have always been
taken in a Christian form, and that the House
is bound not only by usage, by law, and by custom, but
also by positive statute upon this. subject. The prin-
ciple upon which I wish to proceed is this—the electors
of London have sent a gentleman to this House elected
by a majority of themselves, and not only once but twice
returned him, and I say it is due to them and to the whole
body of the electors of this kingdom to see that nothing
abort of a positive obstruction of law prevent us from
allowing that gentleman to take his seat in this House.
Sir, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman I think has been
obliged upon this subject to' deduce rather from
Acts of Parliament that which is not in their
letter—that which is not ch arly prescribed
by them, but to deduce inferences from former Acts of
Parliament, some of which have been rei ealea, but which
he thinks ouebt to bind us. I venture to ask
in the spirit I have referred to whether
there is in these Acts of Parliament such provisions as
refuse t) allow Baron Rothchild to take the oaths in a
manner which he says will be most binding on
his conscience. I entirely doubt the policy of the Acts
to which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman has reerred,
and I think if we are bound to conform to the letter of
tho-e Acts, that they have given us no additional
light upon the subject, but have tended rather to en-
tangle and perplex the mind. and have not tended either
to give any bett• r allegiance or better legislation.
I believe rather that the wisdom of ancient
legislation, before the unhappy differences arose
between various dames of people—l rather be-
lieve that ancient legi-lotion was far better
than, that which succeeded it. It certainly is
important to see that we do not deviate from the ancient
mode of legislation. Let it be admitted that there
was an Act of Elizabeth which required
that corpor eat oaths should be taken on the
Holy Evangelists, let it be admitted also that there
was an Act of James I. with the same provisions.
I will admit all that, but then the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman says it is quite clear, if oaths are to be
taken upon the Holy Evangelists, that they must be
Christian oaths, and we are bound to consider that any
oaths to be taken roust be• Christian oaths. Now
I stop here. I find that a gentleman that
had been duly elected is proposed to take the
oaths in a form unusual to' this House; there
is no precedent of any gentleman having
refused to take the oaths ' • he came before
us asking the privilege of taking the oath in the way he
considers most binding upon him, and it be
hives us, in my opinion, to consider how we
are to construe the Acts we are bound by.
Having no precedent, I naturally go to the usages in
courts of law, and then I come to the distinction be-
tween promissory and juridieal oaths. Now, I
find that Lord Hardwicke says that if a Jew
should be indicted for perjury, he would be as liable to
be punished for the oath he had taken as if it had
been 'taken on the New Testament. Women
I find this to be the case, I say at once
that I da not think the words contained in the Acts
of Elis tbeth and James are conclusive ; but, beyond
this, I find two very remarkable circumstances—the
one with respect to the Act of George 1., which re-
gulates our proceedings, I do not find any similar direc-
tion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman dwells very
properly upon that Act, but I submit that if
that Act repeals former Acts, why, then, we are
not bound by it. Even if the words the Holy
Evangelists are in it, it is 'not an Act
at the present moment which binds us to administer the
oaths on the New Testament. It is indeed a very
important consideration the; from the Ist to the
13th of William 111., there was no oath which
directly excluded the Jews that might come to
this table. It has been urged, and it may be
rightly, - that the Jews were prevented by our
statutes and the law of the land from having a
right to sit in Parliament, but the question is
whether there was anything at that time to pre-
vent them from sitting in Parliament, for at that
time the words "on the true faith of a Christian"
were not in the oath. I come now to consider what
is the manner in which the oaths have been
taken; the Honourable and Learned Gentleman says
they have been always taken in a Christian form;
but at the same time the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman contended that this was matter of
positive statute, but he failed to snake out that by posi-
tive statute we are bound to administer the oaths
according to certain provisions. Unless you
point out some statute which prevents an oath being
administered on the Old Testament, I do not think that
you ought to, insist on tin objection which would at
once rejsct a Member who had been duly elected.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman endeavoured
to answer the arguments which had been taken
from an Act of Parliament very recently pas-ed, which
says that if any person is sworn on any occasion what-
ever, such person is bound by the oath administered.
ect at
another least
person
ito
b doeswn uti this—
it is—
be
Nuw I confess I do not think that statute is completely
conclusive onptebbesittes which
subject, hu
it mak, s a person 'guilty of perjury subject
to the same penalties
J andth
aLearned
tehtai mtt l e
they
n
complains that those oa
fs,tiarbenje.et Ytoo'uuoPbn P°u:tingth he took an oath in the ecsustomat security at least by the statute.
Well, they, what are the oaths wnich the Member for
Loudon has to take.
forma conclusive objection in the first instance against
the lion. Member being sworn on the Old Testament.
Now it appears to me that you ought not to go so far as
to preclude argument on this subject. It did appear to me
Thy
es
H at: e n .
of
tnature
that those Acts, to which the Hon. and Learned Gentle.
man refers, viz., 9th Geo. I. and 13th Geo:lL—that those
words giving exemption to the words on the true faith
of a Cnristian in certain cases there named anddescribed
app., ar to me to preclude this House from omitting toe
words on the true faith of Christian.—(flear.) hut,
Sir, the question now is, whether the Member for London
should be allowed to go so far as to be sworn on the Old
Testament, and to state, either by himself or counsel,
what oaths he is ready to take, and in what sense he is
ready to take them. Some have contended, and con-
tended very properly, that the words " on the true faith
of a Christian," are only the sanction anti confirmation
of the oaths, and do nut belong to the oaths them-
selves- Nuw, Sir, I think whatever may be the
weight of that argument, that the Member

who alleges if, should he at liberty to shoe* that by a:-
4innent, an l nut be sent away at once frc m this House
without ing at liberty to offer or giv.s any explaaa-
tiou. If tie had stated, "lam a Christiao ," or "I pro-
fesi rnyselfto be a Caristian," it mi4ot be inc .nsistent
with taut osth that he -sli;nild in the first instance
be a worn on the Old Testament, but that is not
the present case; the circumstances are entirely cliff-1.-
ent. The original intention of putting the words " ost
the true faith of a Christian " appears to have ea to
give a solemnity and sanction to the oaths with regard
to one class of Christians, viz., the Roman Catholics, who
might be suspected of being disaffected to the Crown, and
not for the purpose of excluding the Jew.—(Hear.) I
have stated that I think it is not in the power of the
House to dispense with these words—(Hear, hear)—
and when the question comes to be debated, I shall
certainly, having given considerable study to
the subject, feel myself compelled to oppose
the omission of these words from the oath; but I do not
think you are enabled at present to declare that
Baron Rothschild shall not be sworn in the form most
binding to his conscience; and looking at this as
a matter for grave deliberation, I think you
should allow the Member who proposes to
be sworn at the table, every latitude in order to have
his case fully and amply stated.—(Hear, hear.) I think
thus much Is due to the electors of the city of London—
that thus much is due to their right to be represented in
Parliament—a right, be it observed, not for the benefit
of an individual, but a right for the benefit of the whole
people of this country.—(Hear.) Now, Sir, I have said
that I would allude, before I concluded, to the line of
argument pursued by some Hon. Members. I feel
it my duty to protest against their arguments.

It wai said the other day in the course of the debate by
an lion. Member that this was a party question; that
it was the greatest party question of the age;
that it was a question of prejudice against
progress and intelligence, intolerance and bigotry
against the principle of civil and religious
liberty. Now I entirely dissent from that.—(Hear,
hear.) If it were a question of civil and religious
liberty I have no doubt whatever, as I have repeatedly
told the House, that a man, whatever might be his reli-
gious views, ought to be admitted to sit in this House.
Sir, the question which we have now to consider is not
a party question—is not a political question. It is
a question whether you are enabled by the laws as they
now act to admit a member claiming his
seat. I feel convinced that if you are opinion—if those
who are most opposed to the admission of Jews are
of opinion that it is lawful for Baron Roths-
child to take his seat, you ought by all means,
whatever political consequences may follow, whatever
you may tear, whatever you may consider about its
altering the Christian character of the House, you
ought at oace to admit him.—(Cheers.) But, on the
other hand, it you do not think the law enables him to
take his seat according to the oaths now in force,
no opinion that is favourable to the Jews, or
to a legislative measure for admitting them
to seats in this House, ought to induce you to give way.
(Cheers.) Sir, I say, if you take any other course you
would take a course that would bring you into collision
with the courts of law, because you would
not be justified by the words of the Act of Parliament
upon which you are acting, and most serious evils must
follow.—(Cheers.) But I should not be afraid if I was
perfectly convinced that it was right of meeting
the privileges claimed by, or the decision of, any court of
law.—(Cheers.) But there is a question even beyond
this—(Hear, hear)—if you feel convinced that you are
not acting according to law, but still you propose to
act according to the dictates of conscience—it you pro-
pose to act in a particular way because it is in the promo-
tion of civil and religious liberty, you will be in effect exer-
cising and dispensing a power, the exercise of which by the
Crown brought the people of this country, and
brought them justly and manfully to make revolution.
—(Loud cheers.) Sir, I. should be sorry indeed
if this House, which has now much of the
power that formerly belonged to the Crown, should at
tempt to exercise any such power.—(Cheers.) And,
Sir, most sorry indeed was I to hear it proclaimed
in this House that we ought to treat this
qnestion otherwise than as a judicial question—(Hear,
hear)—and I was happy, as I said at the com-
mencement of what I have addressed to the
House, to find the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
opposite hal treated it in a different manner, and
I trust throughout the rest of the discussion it
will be so treated.—(Cheers ) Sir, I have stated
the result which I have come to on the present
question.—(Hear, hear.) I think the Member claiming
nos seat—the Baron de Rothschild—should have his
demand complied with ; he should be allowed to be
sworn upon the Old Testament —that the House
should deal fairly and deliberately with everything
that can be urged on behalf of his taking his seat ac-
cording to the oaths now in force, but, according to my
opinion, I cannot lend myself to any vote or pro-
posal for altering the words of the oath without the
sanction cf an Act of Parliament for so doing.—(Cheers.)
Sir R. H. INGLIS acknowledged the moral courage
and forbearance of the Noble Lord's speech, and thanked
him for both; bat if he were prepared to follow the
plan of the Noble Lord, which he was not, in what
state would Baron Rothschild be if he came to the table.
—(tlear, hear.) The Noble Lord seemed to have for-
gotten that taking the hook in one hand and kissing the
book was not the first act but the last connected with the
taking of the eath. The Hon. Member for the city of
Lor.don must hold in one hand the three oaths and the
book in the other, and by his doing so he binds himself
to all three.—(hear.) Those were not the regulations
of the House, but the law, as established by Act of
Parliament, and only by Act cf Parliament could it be
altered.—(Hear, hear.) Still, if it were the wish of the
House to t ace the-division on the amendment, he should
have no objection to withdraw his motion:—(llear.)
He believed the Act of Lord Denman did not touch the
case at all.
Sir GEORGE GREY proposed that the debate be ad-
journed.—(Cries of " Divide.")
Mr. B. OSBORNE objected to the debate being ad-
journed until to-morrow. This being a question of pri-
vilege, the debate should be continued; and he thought
further, that after the somewhat extraordinary speech
of the Noble Lord, he (Mr. B. Osborne) and those
who supported this measure, were in a dilemma. lie
should recommend the House to grant no supplies to the
Noble Lord until he brought in a Bill this session for
the admission of Jews to Parliament. He moved as an
amendment that the House should proceed with the de
bate et five o'clock.
Mr. ANSTEY rose to give the Noble Lord (Lord J.
Russell) an opportunity of explanation. There was a
general question he wished to ask before the Noble Lord's
unfortunate and ill-advised speech went forth to the
country—whether the Noble Lord proposed to give his
vote to those who hitherto, with much consistency, had
opposed, the concession that Baron Rothschild should be
allowed to take his seat? _
Lord JOHN RUSSELL would only say that ques-
tion was; of course, not new to bite, and that he was
told, both last and this year, that it would be
very likely that Baron Rothschild would be advised to
seek to take hie seat, and of course it became his (Lord
J. Russell's) duty to consider the question very ma-
turely.—(Hear.) He did so consider it, and neither the
late nor the present Attorney-General having advised
that it would be desirable for the seat to be taken with the
omission of the words in question in the oath, he (Lord
J. Russell) could do no other than bring his own mind
to that conclusion, and with the best study he could give
the question he bed come to that result which he had
felt it his duty to state to the House.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PAGE WOOD said that ho certainly thought
the debate ought to be adjourned. He knew that many
Members had left, confidently expecting that the debate
would be adjourned.
The debate was accordingly adjourned until Five
o'clock.
The House then adjourned at Twenty minutes after
Three o'clock, until a Quarter before Five o'clock.

The House resumed at a Quarter to Five o'clock.
ROYAL ASSENT.
Immediately on the SPEAKER resuming the Chair,
Mr. Pulman, the Deputy-Usher of the Black Rod, ad•
vanced to the table, and summoned the House to the
House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given by Com-
mission to several Bills.
The SPEAKER accordingly left the House, accom-
panied by several Hon. Members.
On his return,
The SPEAKER read the titles of the different Bills
which had received the Royal Assent (tor which see
Lords' report).
PRISONS DISCIPLINE BILL.
The report on this Bill was brought up.
PETITIONS.
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from
Westminster against the Sunday Trading Bill.
NATIONAL LAND SOCIETY.
Mr. 11. BROWN presented a petition from certain
members of the National Land Society, which he prayed
might be read at length.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR, objected that it was the same
petition which had been presented at the commencement
of the session.
Mr. W. PATr EN hoped that if such were the case,
the Hon. Member would not press for its being read.
Mr. H. BROWN denied that it was the same petition.
The Clerk then read the petition, which was signed
by a considerable number of the allottees in the National
Laud Com
pany,and prayed for au inquiry into the whole
affairs of teat undertaking.
Mr. BROWN gave notice that he would move to-mor-
row tbat the petition be printed with tae votes.
Mr. O'CONNOR said the petition was a verbatim
copy of the one which was presented at the beginning of
the session. Many of those who complained so loudly of
his conduct had received loans of 501., sad had their land
highly cultivated, and yet they had paid
not a farthing
of lent far at least twelve months. When the Com-
mittee of the Howie entered into en investigation
of the company's atTairs, they stated that the company
owed him (Mr. O'Connor) 3,4001; in the following year
they owed him an additional 1,2001.; end he was r, ad)
to show ta another Committee Oat it was indebted to
,him to the extent of 7,000/. or 8,0001., which he had not
chimed; and this was the gratitude which he received
from these ruffians.—(A laugh.)
RETURNS.
Mr. W. PATTEN moved for the following returns,
instead of those ordered on the 21 of July:—Returns of
the number of private Bills introduced and brought from
e colir
doi
nu
gs e
toot'
th, Lords,foi ongf Asuctttis peeatsss:_edninaill:as)o c 10,3.
;rosasedd
acs
and bridges ; waterworks ; ports, piers, harbours, arid
docks; canals and navigations; churches, chapels,
isiles selected
wtehdic Members have
small
and
burying grounds; paving, lighting, and improvin=g;
and other cs,unty buildings; inclosures;
debts courts; and all other Bills arid Acts. Of all the
private Bills, other than Railway Bills, which, in the
. c i f
the in g
nameso e
of t
h Be
present session, have been treated as opposed Bills,
sp y
classi-
fied in groups by the Committee of Selection; together
with
each committee; the first and also the last day of the
whob e n
served oon

sitting of each Committee; the number of days on
which each Committee sat; the number of days
on which each selected Member hss served ;
the Bills the preanatele of which was redor ed
to have been proved ; the 13i11a the preamble
of which was repotted to have been not proved ; thv
Bills referred back to the Committee of 5, lection, as
having become unnppo-ed; and ,tie Bills withdrawn, or
riot proceeded with by the parties. Of a.ll the railway
Bills which, in the ptesent st.ssion, have been
treated as opposed Bills ; specifying those
Bills which have been classified in groups by the
Committee of Selection; together with the names of the
selected Members who served on each Committee; the
first, and also the last day of the sitting of each Com-
mittee; the number of days on wbich each Com-
mittee sat ; the number of days on which each
selected Member has served ; the Bills the pre—
amble of which was reported to have bean proved;
the Bills the preamble of which was reported
to have been not proved; the Bills referred hick to the
Committee of Selection as having become unopposed;
and the Bills withdrawn, or not proceeded with by the
parties. Ot all, the private Bills, other than ruilway
Bills, which in the present session have been treated as
unopposed Bills, and hare been reterred to
the chairman of the Committee of Ways and
Means, together with the names of the Members
who served on each Committee; the number of days on
which Mach Committee sat; and the number of days on
which each Member attended; and of all the ,railway
Bilk which, being unopposed. have been referred is the
present session to the Chairman of the Committee of
Ways and Means; together with the names of the
Members who served on each Committee; the number
of days on which each Committee sat; and the number
of days on which each Member attended.—Agreed to.
Sir J. HOGG moved for copies of all correspondence
between her Majesty's Government and the East India
Company, and the Board of Commissioners fur the
Affairs of India and the Court of Directors; also between
her Majesty's Governmentand the Peninsular and Oriental
Steam Navigation Company, or the Court of Directors
and that company, regarding the establishment of, or
the mode of conducting steam communication between
Suez and Bombay, or between Suez and Calcutta or
Ceylon and Hong-Kong, and with the Australian
Colonies.
PETITIONS.

Mr. REYNOLDS pre,ented a petition from a proctor
residing in Ballinasloe, Galway, complaining of the Bill
to alter and amend the Prerogative Court of Roland,
and praying, in the event of the Bill passing, that a
clause might be introduced rendering him admissible as
an attorney to practice in the court without the pay-
ment of any additional fee.

Mr. MgCGREGOR presented a petition for Glas-
gow praying that the House might promote every mea-
sure for the purpose of extending steam navigation with
the Australian colonies.

Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition against the
admission of Jews into Parliament.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. REYNOLDS gave notice that when the Muni-
cipal Corporations (Ireland, No. 2) Bill came on for the
second reading, he would move that it be real a second
time that day three months.