The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-23 00:00:00

thieoe—eitner that tee Legislature which they were now
confirming, end not introducing, was one that could be
repeated either by the two chambers, or by some depute
form of appointment mad election, or else the present
constitution would last as one that was perfectly satin-
factory to the people of New South Wales. Now, if
this constitution was to be changed, let them wait until
they heard the opinion of the people.--(Bear.)
If they had a house utterly unfit to live in, and
le:paired a new one, the prudent course would
be to remain in the old one until they had settled
the plan of the new.—(Hear, hear.) Now, what had
taken place with respect to this measure? A report of
the Privy Council—a report written with great ability,
and showing not only the course which the Government
proposed to pursue, but the reasons and grounds upon
which it was based—was laid before her Majesty in
council, and approved and printed in May, 1848, and in
that report a strong suggestion was made in favour of
two chambers.—(Hear.) All the reasons derived from
the constitution and the state of the laws were adduced
in favour of the Bill, and the whole of the arguments in
favour of the conclusion the Commito e of the Privy
Council adopted was supported by evidence to the
same purport. While all the general arguments were
given in favour of the alteration, the main ground against
it was stated to be the public opinion of Now South
Wales? Nothing, he thought, could be more obvious
than that if' public opinion was in favour of the two
chambers there would have been petitions from the
colonies. What were the allegations be found in the pe-
tition he had had the honour to present, and which bad
been signed by the most considerable firms who had
connexions in New South Wales ? It was stated in
the petition that the report of the Committee of the
Privy Council having reached the colonies of
1 New South Wales it appeared to have been received
1 with a high degree of satisfaction by the people of
each colony, and it observed that the proposed arrange-
; ment was calculated t secure the listing' attachment
of the colonies to the Crown and interests of the mother
country. Now, there were persons having a strong in-
terest in the welfare of those colonies, and having re-
ceived all the intelligence from those colonies which
either public or private letters conveyed, they came to
that House to ask them ta pass the Bill and not to adopt
the great alterations proposed. Now, if they were to
adopt alterations in the Bill, the question was what alte-
rations should they adopt in place of the present consti-
tution? The proposition of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman was a proposition which went not to make alte-
rations for the present, but a great series of permanent
alterations in the constitution of he country ; because
the Honourable and Learned Gentletnan meant to pro-
pose that the legislative council should be elected for ten
years, and after that the legislative council should be
(4.14 for life. What he intended, therefore, was a
permanent change in the constitution of New South
Wales. He proposed two councils, one a representa-
tive assembly. and the other t s be appointee by the
Crown. He doubted whether a council appointed by
the Crown, and having the power to stop a Bill coming
from the representative assembly, would give satisfac-
tion to the people of New South Wales. He had the
opinion of the elective members of the legislative council
on that point in their votes and proceedings of the 2d
May, 1843, which had been laid before the House. In
that case the council was disposed to view favourably the
separation if the functions S f the nominees of the Crown
from those of the people. By a majority of 9 to 4 of the
elective council of New South Wales the amendment of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was rejected. He
would ask whether, after having stated their with to
consult the feelings of the people of New South Wales,
their first aneration should be directly in the teeth of
the recorded opinions of the representative council? If
that clause was rejected, they were not without some
resource. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman proposed
that the district of New South Wale's should be divided
into provinces, each electing three representatives—one
of them for three years, another for six years, and a
third for nine years. Now there were many objections
to that plan, but the main one was, it was a proposition
altogether unheard-of in New South Wales, and they
were to adopt it without knowing whether five men in
Now South Wales would be satisfied with it. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman next proposed that they should
be elected in provinces, of the amount aad extent of the
population of which, and' especially of how many had the
qualification of 2001. a year in land, which he proposed,
they were utterly ignorant; and in laying down such a
constitution, they might find in some of these provinces
not more than five or six persons likely to be elected,
and they would thus make a close monopoly of it. That
was another strange reason why they should adopt the
proposition. The effect of it, in all probability, would
be to form an oligarchy, who would be found objecting
to and obstructing popular measures. It was calculated
to set up a monopoly in the hands of a few persons.
The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite hail another
and a more complicated plan, but one which could not
be safely adopted by the House. The other proposition,
which made a separate council of the nominees, was sure
to be distasteful to the colonists. New much stress had
been laid upon the constitutions of the other colonies,
but ho thought they would much err if they adopted
them as the rule. 'rake the case of Jamaica. The first
constitution was that of a governor and council and a
house of assembly. The governor and council sat
together, and they were se it were the executive of the
Governor. Gradually they adopted the privilege of
sitting alone; but he asked, would New South Wales
he satisfied with such a council as that, composed of the
judeet, the attorney and solicitor-general, and persons
named by the Crown ? Lately there was a proposal
far retrenchment of expenditure in Jamaica, which
lead been rejected by the council. Suppose that had
been approved of in New South Wales, could any per-
son imagine the amount of the discontent that would be
excitul? lie called then upon the Committee to affirm
the proposition of the Government, because it had been
favourably received in the Australian colonies, and could
be adopted without danger.—(Hear.)
Mr. GLA.DSTONE would not trespass long on the
time and patience of the Committee at that late hour of
the night, and hoped for its indulgence, as he was
anxious to express his opinion on the two propositions
before the House. Amidst the multitudinous business of
Parliament, it was difficult for Members to give their
minds fully to all subjects; but he implored the Com-
mittee to recollect that they were now about to give a
constitution to five colonies, on which might hinge the
fate of those colonies, for good or for evil.—(Hear, hear.)
The great question .was, whether they were to give to
the colony a double or a single chamber. He could not
but admit that great credit ought to be given to the
Government for the liberal spirit in which it had come
forward on this subject; but the Noble Lord at the head
of the Government had gone too far in saying that the
proposition of the Government had been well received
in the colonies. It had been well received, but it was
only comparatively well received. The Noble Lord
had not said one word of what went Wire. Taey had
it, for instance, on the outhority ef the Government of
New Zealand, that the people were desirous to have
an upper chamber, and so, in like manner, they
had it from the Governor of Van Diemen's Lend
that an upper chamber was desired in that
colony. They had district councils introduced by the
Government into New South Wales, and those district
councils were a sore and a festering cause of discontent
between the Government of this country and the colo-
nists, and the question of those district councils was
not yet given up by the Government. Did the Govern-
ment, he would ask, not propose to make important
changes in the constitution of New South Wales, by the
present Bill, without the consent of the
people of that
colony? Undoubtedly they did. The change which
they proposed indicated an enlargement of the constitu-
tion of the colony, and that inaication was a
warrant to
those who supported the motion now before the House
that they, too, should endeavour to enlarge the consti-
tution of the colony still more. He had no hesitation
in saying that the measure proposed by the Government
would, if carried, although somewhat enlarged in its
view, lead to the greatest political discontent, and to a
constant agitation, until, in one form or another, that
consitution should be changed, He thought the
Committee and the country were greatly indebted
to the able pamphlet of Mr. Mackay, which
pointed ont the manner' in which the proposed con-
stitution was likely to act in New South Wales. He
(Mr. Gladstone) objected to the Constitution proposed
by the Government on several grounds, as not likely to
be productive of satisfaction to the colonise, and as cal-
culated to create an anti-British feeling, which would
recoil upon them, and that their measures were allied
with something calculated to give a distaste for British
institutions. He considered that the one chamber, pre-
posed by the Government (with twelve of its members
mere " nominees of the Crown,")
would prove a source
of constant political discontent, and thus it was that he
should give his vote in favour of the motion of the Hon.
and Learned Member, which proposed to give to the
colonists two chambers, on a sound constituConal prin-
ciple.—(hear, hear.) It was quite unnecessary to go
upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman
into the grounds
the Member for Southwark clearly demonstrated the ne-
cessity of constituting the government on this principle.
Much as he was attached to the principle of the double
chamber, and though delay
might be a great evil, still, if
the Government were unprepared to introduce a mea-
sure this session to carry out the principle, ho would
much rather send a good constitution to South Aus-
tralia in 1851, than a bed one in 1850.—(Hear, hear.)
Tho principle of nomination professed to be that which
the Government, and he was willing,
l
it was not; it professed to place before the country as
men who depended upon an act of the will of
however, to make
vital matter for the present moment; but it was neces-
sary concession to the Noble Lord that this was not a
to make preparations fer the future; and however
they might be willing to keep it out of view for a reason
they ought never to forget that it materially affected the
future prospects of the colony. On this subject he
quoted from the work of M. de Tocqueville to the United
States of America,
and be quite agreed with his Hon.
Friend the Member for Leominster, in the appeal which
he had made to the United States, as au example of the
o
operation of this principle. In 1621, the first Assembly
Virginia sat; in 1624 the patent of the non-resident
company was cancelled; 1628 Massachusetts obtained its
charter, and in 1629 it fixed the seat of power on the
other side of the Atlantic. Thus the colony was
really governed by local influence. When young
states were to be launched into the world,
under the difficult and critical circumstances
which it appeared to be decreed should then sur-
round them, it was necessary above all things to
provide principles of a sound constitution. It was by
means only of the double chamber that that great man
Washington was able to bring his country through the
' dangers which menaced it from domestic disorganize-
; tion. When the feeling of the Americans was so strong
against anything participating in the nature of hereditary
transmission of power, if they examined into the facts. of
the case, they would find it was the principle of the division
of the legislative power which proved the saviour of the
ceunt-v. In 1794, a Bill passed the federal chamber to
stop ell commerce wiCti Eugraild, but it was thrown out
by the senate. Again, in 1795, a Bill passed the House
of Representatives, giving Frame a commercial Oven-