The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

stood showed that they were not in a position to dis-
cuss them. He could not, however, refrain from paying
the humble tribute of his praise to the whole, extensive,
and statesmanlike view taken of the subject by the Hon.
Member for Oldham. He was sorry to add one word of
bitterness to the discussion, but he must take this oppor-
tunity of proving that he had had the benefit of some
education by expressing his sorrow for having allowed
an involuntary " 0," to escape him when the Hon. Ba-
ronet the Member for the University cf Oxford insti-
tuted the parallel between this country and Prussia,
which, coming from so good an historian, he was sur-
prised to hear. The Hon. Baronet might have told
them that as in Prussia there existed a highly educated
people without a representative government, the natural
course of events was to upset that state of things in
which, in fact, there was taxation without repre•
sentatiou.—(Hear, hear.) The lion. Baronet went fur-
ther, he alluded to the 10th of April. Now he remem-
bered but one passage in history to which that rebellion
could be likened, and that was the rebellion of Lord
Grizzle in Torn Thum& The lion. Baronet asked what
was education? Ile (Mr. Osborne) had had, he would
not say the honour, because he regretted that he had
ever twen there, but he had been a member of one of the
Universities. He was sent there to receive, not educa-
tion, hut instruction, and he knew not any year in his
life which he more wished to forget, and when he reflected
on all the vice and the little learning which he saw while
he was at Cambridge, he looked on the two Universities
as great hindrances to all proper education. He was the
more inclined to support thy scheme proposed, because
he saw in it a strong assimilation to what he thought the
best mode of education—namely, the national system in
Ireland; and in conclusion, he could not help suspecting
the philanthropy of that man who would deny the people
education save on the condition of instilling into their
minds his own particular prejudices.
Mr. NAPIER was rather surprised to hear the Hon.
Member for Middlesex fasten on the University of
Cambridge the bad habits which ho appeared to have
acquired.—(Cheers and laughter.) Although the Hon.
Member might have found opportunities fir indulging
in vicious pursuits, he might also, it was to be hoped,
have found occasion for the development of virtuous
habits.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had adverted
to the Hon. Baronet's observation as to the conduct of
the population of Middlesex on the 10th of April, but
perhaps the intelligence of that district might be judged
of by the representative they turned out and the one
they put in. The House would have an opportunity on
the second reading of the Bill of fully discussing the
whole system of national education; and he trusted that
the same spirit would be preserved which had marked
its introduction.—(Hear.) He concurred in some part of
the Hon. Mover's views, but differed from him at that
point where he wished to separate secular from
religious education. The proceedings of the association
were of great importance. He had looked into its pro-
ceedings, and had derived much advantage from it, be-
cause, although there were many things with which he
could not agree, still he thought it best to do like the:bee
and extract all the food that was to be found there. In
Manchester a meeting was called a short time since, for
the purpose of discussing this very question, and a pro-
position was submitted to it in the spirit of that brought
forward by the lion. Member for Oldham, and yet, after
full discussion, an amendment was carried of a very op.
posite character. He hoped sufficient time would be
given fur full discussion, and he thought it better that a
Bill of this kind should be brought forward by a pri-
vate Member than by the Government, as the latter
might, perchance, invest with a party character a ques-
tion which ought to be calmly and patiently considered
on its own merits exclusively. In conclusion, he could
not but express his satisfaction to see an endowment
proposed and advocated by the advocates of the volun-
tary system.—(Hear.)
Mr. COCKBURN regretted the allusions made by the
Hon. and Learned Member for the University of Dublin
to the Hon. Member for Middlesex, as it was desirable
to avoid all personal and irritating topics on a question
of this nature. This much, however, he would say of
the constituency of Middlesex, that with the integrity
and intelligence of their present Member they had every
reason to be satisfied. He felt called • on, as a warm
supporter of the general principle of the measure, to en-
ter his emphatic protest against the view which the Hon.
Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford had
taken of it. He denied that it was a system having re-
gard only to the concerns of this world. He did not so
understand it.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable Mem-
ber for Oldham to him appeared as deeply impressed as
any man, that if you could combine religious with secu-
lar education, it would be most desirable for the State to
do so. Why, then, were they separated? Because it
was found impossible to combine them in one sys-
tem, as it would be impossible to obtain the con-
currence of either the Established Church or the
Dissenters. But it was said that religious education

WaS by far the most important. He freely ad-
mitted it ; but if you could not, as a measure
of national education and policy, have both, was
that any reason why you should not have one?—(Hear,
hear.) Did the State at this moment maintain any sys-
tem of State education? None whatever. Schools
were established by the exertions and contributions of

individuals; and was there anything in this Bill to pre-
vent the continuance of the system? Certainly not.
Would any one contend that education in this country
was in a more forward state than in Prussia? At all
events would any one deny that the education of the
people of England was very far from what it ought to
be?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. MILES reminded the House that in 1839 a
proposition was made to separate secular from religious
ducation. What did the country say to it?—(Hear,
near.) Was there not a cry raised against it from one
corner of the kingdom to the other? Did not the Church
of England and Dissenters alike approach the House with
petitions, and did not a Noble Lord, now a member of
the other House (Lord Sthnlcy), bring forward a mo-
tion against it, and though in a minority, did he not
very nearly carry his motion? Did not the Archbishop
if Canterbury move certain resolutions condemning the
principle the❑ brought forward? It was not his inten-
;ion to enter into the question. He should be happy to
look at the Bill, which he hoped would be discussed with
the same good temper and forbearance which had marked
the present debate. Nothing would do more good than
a general discussion upon the whole system of educa-
tion, which he should like to see settled by Act of Par-
liament; but while he was prepared .to discuss it with
temper and forbearance, he would not sacrifice one iota
of his opinions.
Mr. LAW was very glad that an opportunity would
be atlorded for discussing how fir an interference with
education could be justified by a body not immediately
responsible to Parliament. With reference to the Hon.
Member for Middlesex, he had not understood him to
assert that a good education could not be had at Cam-
bridge, but that a good education might turn out fruit-
less.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member, however, must
have made up for lost time, for he never could have sat
in that House as the representative of Middlesex, unless
he had taken great pains to become at a late what he
alight have become at an earlier period.—(Hear.)
ttr. NE WDEGATE wished not to misunderstand the
Hon. Member for Oldham. As he understood him, the
inspection was to be carried into the secular education
of every school of every denomination, and on the re-
port of that inspector as to insufficiency, it would be
competent for the Government to establish schools on the
principle proposed by the Hon. Gentleman, and to rate
the inhabitants.

Mr. FOX said the Hon. Member had in part mis-
understood him. The foundation of his plan was the
deficiency of education in different localities. The means
of ascertaining those deficiencies already existed to a
great extent in the documents which the Committee of
the Council had accumulated by means of the reports of
the inspectors. In a district such as that under the care
of the Rev. Mr. Dawes, in Hampshire, to whom the
cause of education was under such important obligations,
the task would be easy enough. His national school
was conducted in such a manner that not only all the
children of the parish, but even those out of the parish,
attended it; farmers' children and labourers' children sat
together, and received the same instruction; and all the
inspectors would have to do in such a case would be to
report that the education was satisfactory. Where all
the inhabitants of a district were of the same religion,
they might incorporate religion as much as they pleased;
but the case was different when the population con-
tained members of various denominations. He did not
mean that religious education should not begin till secular
education had finished; on the contrary, be meant that
they should go on together, continuously and concur-
rently; but he could not think that mountains and stars
taught infidelity, or winds and waves heresy. He did
not wish to press the measure through the House, sad
would conclude by fixing the next stage after the Easter
holidays.—(Hear, hear.)
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
JURISDICTION OF COUNTY COURTS.
Sir G. PECHELL presented petitions from Brighton
in favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Lewes.

Mr. FITZROY having presented petitions in favour
of extending the jurisdiction of the County Courts from
Berkshire, Birkenhead, Chichester, and Lewes, said, in
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to extend the juris-
diction of the county courts from 201. to 501., it was not
his intention to trespass on the House at any length.
The principle for which he contended—namely, cheap
access to justice, had been already conceded in the estab-
lishmen of these county courts. No doubt it was desir-
able at first that the sum should not be a very large
one, in order that sufficient experience might be obtained
of the working of these courts ; but he believed that it
was within the knowledge of any gentleman who knew
anything of the subject that the results had been
most satisfactory to all parties interested in the
working of these courts.—(Hear, hear.) Indeed
the public had already given its verdict in favour
of these courts—(Hear, hear)—for it was known that
the number of suits that had been already brought into
these courts, although they had been only three years
in existence, amounted to considerably more than
I,ooo,ooo.—(Hear, hear.) The proportion the suits
in these courts bore to the suits tried in the courts of
Westminster Hall was not less tha❑ four to one. The
great objection that he understood would be urged
against the motion ho was about to submit to the House
was, that it would affect the interests of the legal pro-
fession; and he had no doubt that their profits would
be considerably diminished. Although of course he had
uo wish to s,,:c the profits of any class of men reduced,
yet it was desirable that they should not give such
encouragement to the heaping up of legal expenses
as would ;be a practical denial of justice to a large
number of the community. All he asked of the
House was to extend to the creditor of 501. the same
protection that was already extended :to the creditor
of 20/. He would mention one or two cases
to show the inconvenience of limiting the
jurisdiction of those courts to 201. There was now be-
fore the court at Colchester a person on his petitition as
an insolvent. He was the plaintiff in an action—his
cause was at the bottom of the list, and he and his wit-
nesses bad been kept there a whole ,week. The conse-
quence was, that although he got a verdict for 321., the
amount of his demand, with 1201, oils, and although he