The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-28 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 28, 1850.

and other Gentlemen had produced measures of reduc-
tion in fixed salaries, but the Honourable Member for
the N'C'est Riding had on every occasion confounded
wages lied fixed salaries. Because they had proposed
reductions in tix,d sal4riea in consequence c f the altered
state of dfairs in the country, he statod that they were
att _eking w.4ge,.—(Hcar.) They were not attacking
wages; taey were only saying this, that the country
bring in an altered position, the paying power of the
couotr3t being reduced, and the middle classes being in
a state cf great distress, all fixed payments should un-
dergo the ordeal of a severe and well•considered revi•
smut; but none of them said a word about wages.—
(Hear, hear.) The Honourable and Gallant Colonel
(Colonel Thompson) denied the distress of the middle
classes; but had not his constituents lost a great deal of
money?
Colonel THOMPSON—G&ned a great deal; they
were now in a bet!er condition than ever they were in
their lives.—(A. laugh.)
Air. DISRAELI—The Hon. and Gallant Colonel Lai
maile a iagy, and he had given way with great pleasure;
but had his constluents not lost by the railroads they
heerd 80 in;mh of?—(O^, oh.) He would rejoice if

it was not so; and to learn that what they were told the
other night,-this there was not, a, la,rge town in the north
of England that was not ruined by these railroada, V.;3S
ric4 the act.—(llear.) Ho hoped that he had at least
Putt the question as to the motives which influenced the
gentlemen on his isid:t of the House on its fair ha•ia, and
shown that they voted for rttrenehnient, cause the
middle classes were not in a position in which they
could endure those expensive establishavnts that in other
circum,t tnces they were a•ccustomed to maintain.

Mr. V. SMITH thought it very inconvenient t) be
always running bank into the disputed que.tioa of
free trade on occasions like the present. He thought
that instead of the paying power of the country being
reduced it had been increased; but, whether it was so or
not, he thought that all public salaries should, from
time to time, be considered with relation to the
price of provisions. in his opinion, however, the
time had not arrived for doing so, as they had not yet
sufficient experience to guide them in that matter.—
(Hear, hear.) He objected to the anomaly of the secre-
taries to the Treasury receiving as salaries 2,5001. a
year, while 2,0001. a year was the amount allotted to the
heeds of all those departments which had been recently
establi.hed. These were questions, however, that would
be considered by the Committee which had been ap-
pointed, and he therefore objected to any reductions
being now made by the House.
Mr. NEWDEGATE thought the House should not
lose sight of what the real principle proposed by the
Hon. Member for Oxfordshire was. The proposal of
his Hon. Friend was, that as a great alteration had now
been made in the cost of productions, mainly brought
about by legislative enactmsnts, it was just to accommo-
date the remuneration of the public servants to the
altered circumstances of the times; but he did not pro-
pose, as seemed to be imagined, a per-centage reduction.
Such a proposal the lion. Member (Mr. Cobden) cha-
racterised as spiteful and malicious. Why was the Hon.
Gentleman so tender on the civil service, and so severe
on the naval and military? Was it that, looking for-
ward to future contingencies, he was afraid that he
might yet lament to see in his own case that be was
bereft of those great benefits that were conferred by the
civil service? Or was it that the Hon. Gsntlema,n, under
cover of retrenchment, was taking advantage of the coun-
try? Did he wish to protect the commerce of the
country? He showed himself the other night an able
advocate for pirates.(Hear, hear.) Was ho really so
jealous of the greatness of this country that he wished
to strike down her defensive establishments, and verify
his own saying that it was time for them to break off
singing " Rule Britannia?"--(A laugh.) One thing
was clear, that he would never give his cordial co-ope-
ration towards reducing the salaries of those who, resi-
dent in this country, had reaped the full advantage of a
reduction of prices.—(Hear, hear.)

The smendtnent of'Mr. Forbes was then negatived,
and the vote then ngrced to.

A sum of 26,000/. was then agreed to towards defray.
Lug the expeuse4 of the Home Department.
THE FOREIGN OFFICE.

On the next vote, of 71,0001 for the salaries and other
expenses in the department of the Foreign-offics,
Lord MA lION said there was one item connected
with this vote to which he wished to call the attention of
the House, and with respect to which a strange
anomaly existed. He meant the system of pass-
ports granted to British subjects travelling to foreign
states. He made not the slightest charge against
the Noble Lord the Foreign Secretary. He, like his
predecessors, had found the system established, and
had merely continued it; but he (Lord Mahon) wished
the 11911S:', to consider whether great improvement
might not be made in it. Happily and wisely, we re-
quired no passports here; but on the continent a dif-
ferent system prevailed. Foreign Ministers resident
here granted passports to BrAish subjects, or passports
might be obtained at the Foreign-office; but the former
were supplied gratuitously, whilst the latter cost
21. 2s. 6,1.; and the result had been that out of the tens
of thousands of British subjects proceeding is the con-
tinent very few, scarcely 200 or 300, procured them
from the Foreign-office. At the same time many par-
sons thought it more desirable to travel under a British
lather than a foreign passport, and the payment for it
was evaded with perfect ease. If a person wished to
travel to Madrid or Vienna under a British rassport he
took a French passport as tar as Paris, and then ob-
tained gratuitously from the British Minister a passport
to Spain or Austria. He thought, therefore, that the
charge of 21 2r. 6.1. for a British passport here should
be reduced to 4s. or 55., and the same charge might be
made abroad. The result would be that a very large
number of passports would he granted at the Foreign-
cffice. Until tOo system on the continent of requiring
passports was altered we mast consider what course it
was the most desirable tor this country to pursue as to
granting them; but he was quite sure the Noble Lord
would see that the present system was quite intlefenAble
as to its Effect, and that in another session it might not
ho unworthy of the consideration of a Committee of the
House.

Lord PALMERSTON admitted that there was an
apparent anomaly in the arrangements of the Foreign-
( ale as regarded passports, the expense being much
higher than the amount, which was very trifling, if any,
required by the Foreign Ministers; but his Noble Friend
knew perfectly well that the sum for a British passport
at the Foreign-office consisted partly of the stamp and
partly of a fee, which went to the aggregate fee fund,
from which part of the expenses of the office was paid.
If the change which his Noble Friend suggested were
adopted, and passports were given at the Foreign-office
at a very small charge, the consequence would be that
a great number would be applied for and a con-
siderable addition to the establishment of the
office would be necessary, interfering very much
with the business transacted there,. and being at-
tended also with considerable expense. As to
the convenience to individuals, he was not sure there
was a material advantage in a British passport; any
person might.get a foreign passport, and if he wanted to
change it for a British passport abroad he could do so
on easy tesess. Considering the great number who
started for the continent only to stay there for a short
time, he did not see that any inconvenience arose from
their taking a passport of a foreign minister.
Mr. MIME thought it hardly consistent with the
dignity of this country, which the Noble Lord was so
anxious to upholri, that an Englishman should travel
under fareign colours. He knew no man in that house
who was more anxious to maintain the dignity and cha-
racter of England than the Noble Lord—(hear, hear)—
aud yet on this point he allowed this strange anomaly.
He (Mr. Fiume) wished the Noble Lord would tell the
House how many passports were granted last year by the
Foreign . race ?
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped the Noble Lord would not an-
swer the question.—(A laugh.) It' there were no pass•
ports every person would travel on an equality; and he
wished that that was the case on the continent, as itwes
lure. Travelling with the passpol tof the British S cre-
tray of State was supposed to be a great thing; the indi-
vidual went through all countrirs protected by the dig-
nity of England; and for 2/. odd he might have that
passport. He wished alt our passports were entirely
ebolished.—(Hear, hear.) Throughout the republics of
America no passport was required, and we ought to set
a similar example to Europe.
Mr. COBDEN did not know whether any large
amount was brought to the fee-fund by passports granted
at the Foreign-office. If there were he should be sorry
to say anything to reduce it—(A laugh)—but his expe-
rience had taught him that the passport of the British
Minister for Foreign Affairs was nut of more value than
the passport of a foreign consul.
Mr. V. SMITH observed, that if the suggestion of
the Honourable Member for Sheffield were acted on, it
might lead to great inconvenience to British subjects,
and therefore the consideration should be, whether a
better system of granting passports could not be adopted.
As there appeared to be a general wish for the abolition
of passports altogether, and as he understood there had
been some neeotiation on the subject with France, be
would ask the Noble Lord whether he had bad any com-
munication with any other Power of Europe, and whether
there was any probability Of that most absurd system of
passports being abolished?
Lord PALMERSTON said he certainly had a very
good reason for not answering the question of his Hon.
Fiend the Member for Montrose, as he was not able to
do so—(A laugh)—but he could say that a very 'small
number of passports bad been granted at the Foreign-
office. As to the question of his Right Honourable
Friend the Member for Northampton, there bad
boon no communication made by her Majesty's
Government to any foreign Government iu re-
gard to this matter, which peculiarly belonged
to their own internal regulations. He did not know
of any ground upon which we should be justified
in aeking any foreign Government to dispense with re-
gulations which they adopted for their own internal pur-
poses; but certeinly, some time ago, there was reason to
think that the French Government was going to recon-
sider there arrangements. He had not heard thet they
had carried that intention into effect, nor had he heard
that any other Government had any intention of
ing ti.e v•tem of eassports.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether there was
any passport between this country and Belgium.?
Lord PALMERSTON believed •that passports cot-
tinned to be given.
Lord M A HON said the system to which the Hon.
Member for Sheffield referred still existed. but was
leniently administered. l'assports were required, bat
were not (len asked for. The Noble Lord, however, had
not met the objection of the facility of evading the ex-
pense of obtaining British passports at the Foteign-offiee
undar the present system.
Mr. HUME called she attention of the Noble Lord to
e charge of 22,000/. tor Queen's messengers and extra
couriers. He thought, since the facilities of travelling
by railway had been atbrded, that expense might b-
considerably reduced; though, certainly, his desire would
be to reduce the number of dispatches.—(Laughter.)
Lord PALMERSTON. said,• that both at home arid
abroad considerable reductions had been recently made

in the amount of travelling charges for messengers and
couriers.
Mr. ROEBUCK understood that English messengers
travelled much more slowly than foreign messengers;
and h had teen informed that the cease of it was, first,
that Eng isla messengers were paid a certain mileage;
and, next, that instead of travelling as other messengers
and couriers did, namely, oa horseback, they travelled
like gentlemen, in carriages.
Lord PALMERSTON could assure the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman that he was misinformed when he
said that the British messengers were at all less expedi-
tious than the messengers of other countries. They al-
ways went by railway when that mode of travelling was
available. otherwise they travelled in carriages. It was
impossible they could carry their bags containing dis-
patches on horseback. As a proof of the. zeal with which
these messengers rendered their services to the Govern-
ment of this country be would mention an instance in
which a gentleman (for they were gentlemen) per.
formed his duty on an occasion when it was
required that he should make an extraordinary
from One of the geeen's messengers, Colonel
Townley, in order to carry a dispatch of very consider-
able importance from the Foreign-office to Constanti-
nople at the time when a question was pending between
Russia and Turkey, was three d tys aid thre .1 nights in
the saddle without qaitting it, and performed that jour-
ney in this worst weather and under the greatest possible
difficulties. This showed that these servants of the public
were willing to perform, and capable of performing duties,
when req 'Aced of them, which one would think it was
almost impossi'ele that any human being would be able
to go through. lie (Lord Palmerston) was glad at having
this opportunity r f doing justice to that excellent courier
whose great exertions lie had mentioned, and whose zeal
had not been surpassed ty any person who had been
employed in that department of the public service.
Mr. ROEBUCK had no doubt of the truth of the
Noble Lord's statement; still he understood that while
the distance between Paris and Madrid was performed
by foreign couriers in five days, an English messenger
always took seven days to accomplish the journey. He
was informed also that an English messenger always
took some person with him, who paid the expenses of
the journey to the messenger, although that messenger
was paid by the British Government. This was a sort
of stigma upon the public service of England; and, at
the same time, made it appear that our messenger system
was used to subserve the private interest of individuals
to the detriment of the public service.
Lord PALMERSTON said it very often happened
that it was of great advantage to the public service that
the messenger should have some one with him. The
messenger never allowed the bags containing the die.-
patches to be out of his possession, and yet his presence
was necessary at different places in order to show his
passports, to hire horses, and so forth. It would be very
difficult for him to do this and to carry his bags with
him. He (Lord Palmerston) did not believe that the
British messengers were slower travellers than the mes-
sengers of other countries. They were required to state
the time of tbeir arrival at, and of their departure from,
every place, and his impression was that the opinion of
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was not founded upon
a true st Aia of the facts.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 37,4001. for the salaries and expenses of
the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies was then
agreed to.
The vote of 43,0001., for defraying the salaries and
expenses of the Privy Council-office and the Board of
Trade was postponed.
A vote of 2,000/., to pay the Salary of the Lord
Privy Seal, and a vote of 24,1001. for the salaries and
contingent expenses of the Postmaster-General, were
agreed to.
On the sum of 6,576/. being proposed to pay the
salaries and expenses of the department of Controller-
General of the Exchequer.
Colonel SIBTHORP repeated his denunciation of the
appointment of Lord Mouteagle to the office of Con-
troller of the Exchequer, as being one of the most
corrupt jobs that had ever been practised. He (Colonel
Sibthorp) had, however, done some good in moving for
a return of the number of days the Noble Lord attended
at his office, as it had been the means of making that
Noble Lord more punctual in his attendance. Unfor-
tunately, the salary of the Noble Lord was not included
in this vote, but was paid under an Act of Parliament
out of the consolidated fund, otherwise he would have
moved that it be deducted from the vote. He considered
the whole of the duty of this department might be per-
formed more economically and satisfactorily by the Bank
of England. He would not object to add 5001. a year to
the salary of the Assistant-Controller, if it were taken
from the salary of the Controller-General.
Mr. HUME said the Hon. and Gallant Member might
with great propriety propose to abolish the office of
Assistant-Controller. [Colonel SIBTHORP.—" No: he is
the best of the two."] But they could not touch the
Controller-General, who held his appointment under an
Act of Parliament. By abolishing the office of Assis-
tant-Controller they would be recognizing the principle
that there ought to exist no office to which duties were
not attached.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 2,7004 for salaries and expenses for the
State Paper-office was agreed to.
On the sum of 3,640/. being proposed to defray a por-
tion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
of England,
Mr. V. SMITH expressed an opinion that this vote
ought not to appear in these estimates. In the report of
the Committee in reference to the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission it was stated that it appeared that the duties per-
formed by that establishment were confined to the
management of ecclesiastical property, and generally to
the control of ecclesiastical business, and that the Com-
mittee were of opinion that the vote might fairly be de-
frayed altogether out of the funds of the Commission.
On the 15th of March, 1844, the Commissioners agreed
to the proposal for throwing upon the property intrusted
to them such portion of the salaries as might be con-
sidered immediately connected with that property and
the management of it. Now, he could not conceive what
other duties the clerks who were mentioned in this esti-
mate had to perform, except what were connected with
that property. Therefore the Commissioners had, in
fact, assented to defray the whole expense of their estab-
lishment. Perhaps some arrangement might be made
by which the payment of these expenses would be pro-
vided for in the Bill respecting the Ecclesiastical Com-
mission now before the House?
Sir B. HALL concurred in the opinions expressed by
the last speaker. He also complained that the Commis-
sioners had furnished no report for a considerable time.
They were equally backward in making returns ordered
by the House. The Commissioners were directed to
make a return on the 2LI of this month, which they bad
not yet complied with. The House of Commons knew
nothing of what the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were
about except this, that the episcopate body had spent
143,0001. in building their own palaces in eight dioceses,
whilst only the miserable sum of 5,000/. had been appro-
priated in the same dioceses to the augmentation of
small livings.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. GREY thought it only reasonable that this
vote should be postponed until after the Ecclesia,tical
Commission Bill had been discussed. The returns to
which the Hon. Member for Marylebone had referred
were returns with which the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners, as such; had nothing to do. The returns must
be made from the various dioceses, aad their preparation
would occupy considerable time.
The vote was then postponed.
THE POOR-LAWS.
The next vote was 277,5001, to defray the expense of
administering the poor-laws.
Colonel SIBTHORP was of opinion that the new poor-
law had been productive of no benefit to the country.
whilst it had aggravated the misery of the poor by shutting
them up in bastiles. If there were any chance of suc-
ceeding he would propese to reduce the vote by 10 or
15 per cent.; but there was no chance of carrying a
proposition for retrenchment in the face of a well-filled
Treasury Bench, and such an array of " financial re-
formers" as he saw opposite These gentlemen on the
hustings declaimed loudly as to the necessity of reducing
the expenditure by ten millions, but in the house of
Commons they invariably supported Ministers in resist-
ing every practical measure of economy.
Colonel DUNNE suggested that the salaries of au•
ditors, schoolmasters and mistresses, and medical officers
in Ireland should be defrayed out of the consolidated
fond, as was done with respect to those charges in
England.
Mr. HUME, on the contrary, thought it would be a
better arrangement to remove all those charges from the
consolidated fund, and impose them on the unions.
Mr. BRIGHT found that the two secretaries to the
Poor-law Board—a Noble Member of that House (Lord
Ebrington) and Mr. Nicholls—had salaries of 1,5001. a
year each, whilst the President of the Board received
2,0001. The salary of the secretary appeared large in
proportion to that of the president, and he thought that
1,000/. was enough for the former.—(A cry of Move.")
Mr. HENRY DRUMMOND expressed a hope that
the London board would continue to maintain some con-
trol over the medical department of the administration
of the poorelaws, otherwise the sick poor would be ne-
glected.
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY referred to the fact, that
the large sum of 9,152/, was set down for the incidental
expenses of the Poor-law inspectors. That was equiva-
lent to 7001. to each of those gentlemen, independently
of their salaries, and would allow them nearly 21. 10s. a-
day for travelling expenses, if they travelled 300 days in
the year.
Mr. BAINES said that the two secretaries might be
looked upon as representing the former Poor-law Board,
the members of which had a salary of 2,000/. a year each.
The expense of the old Board was 6,0001; that of the
present one was only 5,000/. Allusion had been made
to the Poor law inspectors. It was to the inspectors,
who came in place of the former Assistant-Commis-
sioners, but discherged some additional duties, that the
boards of guardians first applied in cases where advice
was desired; end on them also devolved the task of mak-
hes inquiry when it was necessary for the central board to
inform themselves on any question by means of an impar-
tie! authority. lie was certain that those who as members
of boards of guardians rendered gratuitous and most
efficient service to the country would be willing to bear
their t simony to the services rendered by the inspec-
tors, whose duty it was to make the poor-1 aw work as
well and harmoniously as possible, each in his district,
and than whom there was no more valuable body of
public servants. The item of 9,152!. for travelling and
incident al expenses included the allowance made to in-
spectors for travelling expenses, the allowance at the
rate of one guinea a day each for other expenses, and
also the salaries of inspectors' clerks.
Mr. SEYMER concurred in the remarks made by the
President of the Poor-law Board with reference to the
inspectors; the guardians had only to complain that they
did nut see them often enough.
Mr. BAINES observed that an inspector, whenever a
union expressed a wish for the presence of one, forthwith
proceeded to the spot.
Mr. BRIGIIT proposed to reduce the vote by the sum

necessary to bring the salaries of the. secretaries down to
1,0001 each.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated
aat there were two Secretaries, one in Parliament,
the other not. The latter used to receive 2,000/. as
a Commissioner, had served thirteen years, and now
discharged duties as important for 1,500/. It would be
exceedingly hard to deprive him of that amount ; a
piece of more lase economy could not be proposed. The
salary of the Secretary who held a seat in that House
would corne'for consideration before the Committee on
official salaries recently appointed, and pending the in-
quiry of the Committee it would not be dealing fairly
with the office for the House of Commons to interfere.
The Government were prepared to act on the recom-
mendations of that Committee when they were made.
Mr. BRIGHT admitted that there was some force in
the remark of the Right Hon. Gentleman, with refe-
rence to the salary in the second case being under con-
sideration of the Committee on Official Salaries. All
gentlemen were &dart d efficient when their salaries ,
were made the subject of discussion. He should not
divide the Hesse on ttia peepesiitioe.
Mr. EVELYN DENISON recalled the attention of
the House to the allowance of a guicet a-day given to
each of the inspectors. He described it as a salary under
another name.

Mr. BAINES acknowitel4ed that the allowance teas
really a part of salary. From the first it had been ar-
ranged that a certain portion of salary should be so
paid. 'I he travelling expenses charged were the actual
expenses of locomotion.
Mr. MONSELL thought the charges for medical
officers should be paid from the consolidated fund in
Ireland, as in England and Scotland.
Sir G. PECEIELL inquired why the judges of
County Courts should be allowed only 15e. a day, when
the Poor-law inspectors were allowed one guinea a-day?
He did not approach the subject with the feelings he
had on former occasions had to express. He had nothing
to say of mismanagement, for he was satisfied the pro-
ceedings of the Poor-law hoard were now conducted on
a e
g; and he trusted the President of
thhavecdoruhlyoiotnahel differentrreditwto AoguiwlvdfeDonocontinu
e to give the satisfaction he
thought the allowance for me-
dical officers ought to be extended to Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed
that in 1846 it bad been arranged to pay certain charges
for medical officers, &c., out of the consolidatel fund in
England and Scotland, where the county police were not
paid by the Government. But the cost of the constabu-
lary in Ireland was tzald out of the public Exchequer;
for the year ending February last it amounted to
574,0001, having increased upwards of 90,000/. within
the last two years.
Colonel DUNNE observed that the police in Ireland
ought to be reckoned as a military force. The expense
of the poor-law in Ireland had much increased since the
arrangement made in 1846.
Sir R. FERGUSON reminded the Chancellor of the
Exchequer that a portion of the constabulary expenses
had always been borne by the consolidated fund. The
portion borne by local taxation had never exceeded
160,0001 or 180,0001
Mr. E. DENISON briefly supported the view of the
Hon. Member for Limerick, with respect to the payment
of the medical officers of the unions in Ireland.
Mr. BRIGHT did not think that Ireland was so badly
used in this matter after all, seeing that last year 62.8004
was voted for the Poor-law establishment of Ireland, and
only 35,000/. for that of England.—(Hear, hear.) With
respect to a general local taxation, he begged to say that
a thorough reform of the grand jury system would en-
able Ireland to obtain areduction of that without coming
to that House.
Mr. MONSELL said that supposing the grand jury
system were reformed, the only saving that could be
effected by that means was upon the 1,100,000/ of grand
jury cess—and of that sum the Hon. Member would
perhaps be surprised to learn that the grand juries had
the control over one-fourth only, the rest being compul-
sory.—(Hear, hear.).
Mr. V. SMITH wished to know what was the meaning
of the Irish Poor-law Board keeping an architect?
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the ordinary duties
of the architect were to visit and inspect the workhouse
buildings; and at present there was a large number of
additional workhouses in the course of erection.
Mr. VESEY considered that hitherto the architect bad
been a nuisance rather than otherwise, and he should be
glad to see the office abolished. There was no such office
in connexion with the English Board.
Sir. W. SOMERVILLE said,. that the cases of Eng-
land and Ireland were totilly different. In England the
building of the workhouses was undertaken by the
boards of guardians themselves, who employed their own
architects.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ARK WRIGHT moved as an amendment upon
the vote then under consideration, that instead of 13
inspeetors—eight at 700/. a-year, and five at 5001. a-year
atea 7 0
each, the
numbera-
theyeareach, and
shouid
fibevereadt soul., dtomealkgbing a
eight, viz., three reere-
duction of 3,500/.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND felt it to be his duty to
support the proposition, because wi'h the great diminu-
tion which had recently taken place in the value of pro-
perty, it was impossible that the existing taxation of the
country could be supported.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PRICE was aware that a strong opinion pre-
vailed in seme quarters in favour of a considerable di-
minution of the Poor-law Board in London; but in his
opinion that board would be of little value, and would
but ill perform the functions for which it was ap-
pointed, if it were diminished in any considerabl degree.
Sir G. GREY said, that the Government originally
proposed that the number of inspectors should be 12, but
it was afterwards agreed by the House, upon the recom-
mendation of the Committee who investigated the sub-
ject, to leave the number to be fixed from time to time by
the Government according as they should see fit. He
hoped, therefore, that, without sonde better reason than
had yet been urged, that arrangement would not be
disturbed.—(llear, hear.) The amendment had been
put upon the ground of economy; but he trusted that
some other branch of expenditure would be found to
exercise economy upon, rather than that the poor should
be deprived of the security they at present enjoyed for
the due administration of the law.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT could not consent to vote for the amend-
ment without some further information upon the subject.
13 inspectors were perhaps too many; but, on the other
hand, eight might be too few.—(Hear.)
Mr. BAINES said, that Mr. Buller had, upon mature
consideration, Come to the opinion that fewer than 13 in-
spectors would be insufficient, and his own experience
fully confirmed that opinion.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was not disposed to support the
amendment, considering it necessary to have that efficient
inspection, the want of which bad been a complaint
especially prominent in the Andover Union inquiry.
There were, however, many items in this enormous esti-
mate which he thought objectionable. For example, he
wanted to know how many auditors there were, and in
what proportions the large item of 13,5001. was dis-
tributed among them.

Mr. BAINES could not exactly say at the moment
how many audAors there were, but the salaries varied
from 250/. to 500/. per annum, according to the districts.
The increase in the charge under this head, from 13,0001.
to 13,5001, was occasioned by the expense of advertising
the various audits.
The Committee divided; the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it
157
Majority
--
Mr. Alderman SIDNEY then moved that thel2l vote,
salaries of auditors in England and Wales, be reduced
from 13,5001. to 5,500/. The smaller sum would furnish,
sufficient for thoroughly efficient auditing.
icelh ten auditors, a number quite
ered that the auditors were not
atat s
15a5r101.
1.
Bo
ypteirrpNaaE i annum u :n
Theyo e a
received from 250/. to 5001. per
annum each for services occupying a great portion of
the very laborious, and involving many questions
(f y ear,alegal
character that required for their settlement
considerable professional qualifications.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND wished, betire they
came to a division on the vote, to have in detail the
amount of the salaries paid to the auditors.
Viscount EBRINGTON could not at that moment re-
collect the number of auditors—(flear)—but as long as
he had had the honour of a seat Kt the Poor-law Board
the number had remained the same.
Alderman SIDNEY said if the item of auditors was
postponed
The number of auditors for Ireland, with the
number
minor employes, were given,
but no tiecou_no
other
c necessity for dividing the
t was given of the number of the recipients
ofthis
and if he received no better information
than had been
given, he was afraid he must divide the
l of f,
o clerkso O there 4; would
and be
e h n

House.
Mr. MILES approved of the office of auditors, but he
thought the amount of their salaries ought to be given.
Mr. HUME would vote for the striking out of this
item, on the ground that each union ought to pay the
expense of its audit.—(ob.)
Alderman COPELAND said he would undertake to
get efficient persons to audit the accounts of the unions
for 80/. a year.--(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. SLANEY and other Hon.
Members,
fthe a
auditorst set forth in the appendix, ho
Mr. BUCK said it was the union charges that were
complained of universally.
found Mr
theß NES sail, on looking o
names and services
full. The averages of the salaries
of the auditors was
2701., and the number about fifty.
Alderman SIDNEY said he found the number of
auditors for Ireland was. six. If that number was
sufficient for Ireland, then fifty auditors were too many
and
for England.
Mr. BRIGHT remarked the Hon. Dlenaber (Alderman
Copeland) had said he wculd get the accounts of each
union audited for 501. each. But on looking at the
number of unions, and the sums paid in the aggregate,
be found that the cost to the country was not more than '
about 22/. per union.—(Laughter.) Now, though he
was &ways willing to vote for the retrenchment of any-
thing superfluous, still he could not give his support to
random motions such as certainly appeared to him to
be that of the Hon. Alderman opposite.
Colonel SIBTHORr said Hon. Members opposite
gave a very singular support to her Majesty's Ministers
in that House on these questions, which contrasted very
oddly with their reform and retrenchment speeches rn
the hustings.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) But
wherever there was honey there would be
found bees or rather drones.—(Laughter.) The conduct
of Honourable Gentlemen opposite showed them to be as
far as the principles of economy were concerned, mere
shams end shadows. Every day he passed through the
streets of the metropolis he met persons who cautioned
him to beware of the traps of the Free-traders, who
would, he hoped, some fine morning be caught in their
own traps.—(Laughter)
The Committee then divided, when there appeared--
For the vote
Against it ... 56
Majority •.• ••• —125
Mr. W. MILES then called the attention of the Com•
mittee to the charge for schoolmasters and sehoolmis-

. .
treszes, and inquired whether the system recommended
in 1846 was completely organized; whether a sufficient
number of persona had been appointed, and whether the
811111 annually voted had been expended in the payment
of their salaries?
Mr. BAINES regretted that ho was not in a position
to answer the questions of the Hon. Gentleman, as he
had not given him notice of the questions. Great pains
had been taken to increase the efficiency of the school-
masters and schoolmistresses, and every opportunity had
been taken of making improvements in the schools.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND did not think the ex-
planation satisfactory, and felt it his duty to move that
the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. LAW trusted the Hon. Gentlemen would not di-
vide the Committee, because it might imply a censure of
the distinguished President of the Poor-law Board,
whose labours bad been so highly apprec:ated.—(Hear,
hear.) If notice had been given he was quite sure the
Hon. Gentleman would have explained all the particulars,
as he had done on previous questions which had been put
to him.
Mr. MILES said hit intention was not to object to the
vote, but to elicit some explanation. A sum of 35,000/.
for e locating 56,000 n was most reasonable, and
he did not think that any such sum could be more bene-
ficially' applied.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND having withdrawn the
amendment, the vote was agreed t
The next vote was 35,000/. to defray the expenses of
the Mint.

Mr. I'fIOiI.NELY wished to know what had become
of tke fl ,rin—(Laughttr)—a.nd also whether it was in-
tenCe I to make a new issue of threepenny pieces, which
were found so convenient to the retail trader?
Mr. SHIM. said he had already stated the reason
why the issue of the florin had been suspended, and that
it was intended to issue the coin in another shape with
the addition which public opinion appeared to require.
—(Hoar, hear.) With respect to the smaller coin,
instructions had been given that a large quantity should
be coined.

Mr. Alderman COPELA.ND wished to call the at-
tention of the Government to a matter of great import-
ance to the trading portion of the community who
suffered severely from the circulation of base coin. It
was only last week that the solicitor to the Mint re-
fused to prosecute a person Tor uttering base coin, when
the magistrate thought proper to commit the party; and
he knew many cases in which individuals had been pro-
secuted to conviction by the City authorities when the
Mint had refused to proceed against them. This was a
power which ought not to be vested in the solicitor to
the Mint, and he trusted that the Attorney-General and
the Master of the Mint would turn their attention to the
subj,ct.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME wanted to know when the change recom-
mended in the Commission of last year would be car-
ried out?

Mr. SHIEL said that no time would be lost in making
the changes recommended by the Commissioners.
Mr. LAW said the grievance referred to by his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Alderman Copeland) was well worthy the
consideration of the Government. The Mint was in a
different situation to other public bodies, so far as prose-
cutions were concerned. Although a magistrate might
recommend a prosecetion, the Mint might prosecute or
not as they thought proper; and if, when they did pro-
secute, the expenses of the witnesses should be disallowed
by the court, the Mint authorities could pay them out of
a Government fund.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the practice was,
that no Mint prosecutions should be instituted without
the depositions being laid before the Attorney-General,
and without the sanction of the Attorney General, and
in all cases where penalties were inflicted the prosecu-
tions were instituted under the authority of the board.
Mr. LAW said his remark applied to ordinary cases of
misdemeanour.

Mr. SHELL said that all the business of that kind had
been transferred to the Solicitor to the Treasury, assisted
by Mr. Powell.

Alderman SIDNEY called the attention of the house
to the case of a noted " smasher " brought before Mr.
Alderman Farebrother on Saturday, in which the soli-
citor of the Mint declined to prosecute, and withheld
evidence, but ultimately consented to do so on the ma-
gistrate committing the man. He hoped the Govern-
ment would not continue to connive, through their officers,
at the escape persons detected in passing bad money.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the Govern-
ment did not connive —it only hesitated to bring its
weight to bear when there was no decided chance ot
a conviction. It was, however, competent for the ma-
gistrate to commit them, and the parties aggrieved to
prosecute.

- Alderman COPELAND complained of the power
vested in the solicitor of the Mint in the matter of such
prosecutions. .

Sir W. JOLLIFFE alluded to the inconvenience and
expense entailed upon counties by the course taken in
regard to persons accused cf passing bad money by the
authorities of the Mint.

The vote was then agreed to.
12,6781., for the care and arrangement of the public re-
cords, keepers' salaries, &c.

Mr. A. HOPE protested against the vote, on the
ground that their condition was not satisfactory. Some
of them were kept in the Chapter House of Westminster,
others in the Tower of London, others in the riding-
house at Carlton-ride, while the building erected for the
purp)se was wholly insufficient. There was a fire-proof
chest in every parish church in England; but on the
Carlton-ride a policeman was kept as the only preserva-
tive against fire. It was a disgrace to the country. He
should not, however, divide the House on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, had
stated et an early period of the session that it was his
intention to ask a vote to erect a building for keeping
the records on the Crown estate. lie trustee, there-
fore, that the House would agree to the vote then
before it.

Colonel SIBTHORP said the records were at present
in a worse state than they were forty years since.
The vote was agreed to after a few words from Mr.
HumE and Mr. F. MAULS.

10,994/ fur the salarie3 and expenses of the inspectors
of factories.

Mr. HUME said the vote was a reflection thrown
upon mloufacturers, and he hoped it would soon be
dispensed with altogether.
Mr. BRIGHT said, whenever there was a Home Se-
cretary appointed, a near relative of his was commonly
sent down into Lancashire as an inspector of factories,
who was generally ignorant of the subject he was sent
down to superintend. Such places should not be so dis-
posed of. It was not satisfactory.
Sir G. GREY said, only one place had fallen in dur-
ing his tenure of office, and he had consolidated it with
another, s) ea to melte one person perform the duties of
both.

Lord J. MANNERS considered that inspectors of
factories were a great advantage to the working classes.
The vote was then agreed to.
1,6101., salaries of certain officers in Scotland.—
Agreed to.
6,4641., salaries of officers in the household of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland.—Agreed to.
24,2501., salaries and expenses in the office of the
Chief Secretary of Ireland.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE said there was an item of 2,7011.
for contingencies, which he thought required some ex-
planation.

Sir G. GREY said it was almost impossible to state
those contingencies in detail.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that the items were all
specified in the appendix a the report last year.
Major BERESFORI) thought that 3,0001. was a large
sum for contingencies in such an office as that of the
Chief Secretary of Ireland. The contingencies in the
Home Secretary's office were last year only 1,8641.
Colonel SIBTHORP observed that the salary of the
Chief Secretary was 5,5004 He thought it ought to
be reduced, and begged to move that 5001. be struck off.
The Committee divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment 41
Against it
Majority ... ... —ll5
The vote was accordingly agreed to, as also was the
following, viz.:—

5,464/. charges and expenses of the office of the Pay-
master of the Civil Service in Ireland.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob-
tainedleave to sit again.

COURT OF CHANCERY (IRELAND) BILL.
Oa the order of the day for the third reading of this
Bill,

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL proposed the insertion
of a clause giving compensation to officers of the court
after twenty years' service—the compensation not to ex-
ceed two-thirds of their annual salary.
The clause was agreed to, and the Bill was read a
third time and passed.
p els toe nseud
mafter
ya sjhuorritsddiicstciuons s i(olnr
The third reading of the Elections (Ireland) Bill was
*eland) Bill and other
Bills were postponed.
The Metropolitan Interments Bill was committed pro
forma, and reported, with amendments.
The Petty Sessions (Ireland) Bill was read a second
time; and the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill was
understood to pass through Committee.
The Vestries and Vestry Clerks Bill was passed
through Committee and ordered to be reprinted.
ACTS OF PARLIAMENT ABBREVIATION BILL.
On the motion for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. STANFORD rose and said, that though he con-
sidered this altogether an unobjectionable measure, he
hoped the Hon. and Learned Attorney-General would
consent to its being referred to a Select Committee.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Bill had come
down from the House of Lords, and he could not, there-
fore, consent to the suggestion of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman.
The Bill was then passed through Committee and
ported to the House.
COURT OF PREROGATIVE (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. KEOG H, this Bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be referred to a Select Corn-
mit!ec.

THE KILRUSH UNION.

On the motion of Mr. P. SCROPE, the following
;Members were nominated a Select Committee on Kit-
rush Union:—Mr. Poulett Scrope, Sir William Somer-
ville, Sir Lucius O'Brien, the Earl of Arundel and
Surrey, Mr. Monsell, Lord Na2t3, Mr. Stafford, Mr. ller-
bert, Mr. Fagan, Mr. O'Flaherty, Mr. Shafto Adair,
Mr. Bright, Mr. Cornewall Lewis, Sir Robert Ferguson,
and Mr. Clements.

i'HE DERBY DAY-ADJOURNMENT OF THE

-
Mr. BERESFORD gave notice that to-morrow he
should move that the House at its rising do adjourn to
Thursday.—(Hear, hear.)
The other business on the paper having been disposed
of, the House adjourned at Half-past One o'clock.

Dispatches were received yesterday at the Colonial-
office from the Governors of Canada and the other
North American Colonies, and also from the Governors
of New South Wales and the Gold Coast.