The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

army—that army rendered necessary by their own intolerance
and misgovernment.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of RODEN said, when he entered the House he
had no intention whatever of taking any part in the debate,
and now that he did so, he was urged to it only by the personal
allusion which had beets made to him by the Noble Marquis
(Clanricarde). That Noble Lord had charged him with find-
ing fault, on former occasions, with the late Government on
account of the various agitations which existed under them,
and of not finding the same fault when those agitations
existed under a Government canted on by his own political
friends. It was his duty, disapproving as he did of those agita-
tions, to call t heir Lordships' attention to them, and he had
ever done so, without any regard to what Government was in
power, if that Government, in his opinion, did not exert its
powers to discourage and suppress those great evils. In these
respects he had never been influenced by party views, but so'ely
by a desire to benefit the country in which he lived. On the
very first day of the last session he had given notice that he
should put a question to the Ministers on account of the agita-
tion for the repeal of the union. He had done so, and the mat-
ter passed by. Towards the close of the session, however, he
again found it his duty to follow that course which he always
had followed, and to call the attention of the Government to
what was going on in Ireland. He could appeal
to his Noble Friends behind him as to the consis-
tent course he hail ever pursued in these mat-
ters—(Cries of " Hear, hear")—and therefore there was not
one single ground for the charge which had then been
brought against him. He would now beg to say a very few
words indeed on some of the remarks which had fallen from
the Noble Marquis (Normanby) who introduced the question.
He had listened to his very able speech with great attention—a
speech of great talent and much information, with respect to
that country with which he had for so long a time been con-
nected. Throughout the whole of his speech the Noble Mar-
quis seemed to have taken it for granted that all the people of
course pursued by
osnruhernisigsemen-tdhi
Ireland approved of the course he had taken when Lord-Lieu-
tenant of that country. The Noble Marquis laughed, but that
was the drift of all he said. But he (Lord Roden) would tell
him that a very large and influential portion of the Irish people
differed widely from him in the estimate which he had formed
of his own Government, and who now traced the miser-
able condition in which Ireland was to the unhappy
pursued
unhappy
nrcgsohunl
aaespndi
pdgyei
language
ac
cgrdoee theyumtnootwvr
iy.an.
towards
fTr
oilwerethe
now reaping the effect of that wholesale discharge of the
gaols—(Loud laughter)—which had been the distinguishing
GN featurenobvel
ernAominevhains
Marquis
hatiahndef painful
m
the Commission of the Peace the magistrates who had made
themselves parties to the agitation for the repeal of the nnion.
But had the Noble Marquis dismissed no magistrates? Indeed,
he had ; and for no conduct which involved or compromised
the integrity of the empire as repeal did. One magistrate
was dismissed from the Commission of the Peace by the Noble
Marquis, simply because his lady appeared in public with an
orange riband round her neck. Returning to the subject of
the conduct of the present Government, he must say he was one
of those who greatly censured them for their inactivity. But after
what had fallen from the Noble Lord ( Wharnclitfe)
he was willing to admit that he might have been wrong, and
that the Government had in the end acted most effectively.
There was an old adage, " better late than never," and he
was willing to acknowledge that the results of the trial would
produce the best effects on the tranquillity of Ireland, and ma-
terially conduce to the strength and happiness of the empire.
The worst of all was that the question of repeal had been
made a Roman Catholic question—the effect of which in Ire-
land had been, to engender the belief among the masses, that
the upshot of the whole would be the downfall of the Pro-
testant, and the ascendancy of the Roman Catholic religion.
Helwished to say one word as to the conduct of the Irish Attor-
ney-General, and then he would no further trouble their
Lordships. On the grand jury, in the recent trials, were
three 'Roman Catholics, and they of course, before commenc-
ing their important duties, had taken a solemn oath to keep
their own and their fellows' counsel. No sooner was the
bill found than one of the Catholics thus sworn
to keep his own and fellows' counsel came into the box, and
said he was ditaentient to the finding of the Bill.—(Hear,
hear.) Was not this sufficient to make the Attorney-General
doubly careful in the striking of his other jury? Had he not
been so, after such conduct, people would have said he was not
an honest man nor an honest functionary, and that in his
heart he did not desire to get a verdict against the tra-
versers.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis (Clanricarde)
having alluded, in somewhat taunting terms to his (Lord Ro•
den's) opposition to what was called the national system of
education, he would just state in reply that he had taken the
course he had done without any party feelings whatever, and
solely because by that system it was proposed to rob
them of their greatest treasure and their truest blessing—the
unmutilated copy of the Bible.
The Earl of DEVON said he wonld state very shortly the
course which had been adopted by the Commission of which he
was the head. On the Ist of December he went to Ireland,
and remained actively employed until the meeting of Parlia-
:nyerT thathasedtyv
Parlia-
ment. The course they had taken to obtain information was
to issue circulars to all bodies of jurors, and to every Protest-
ant and Roman Catholic bishop, requesting them to aid and
assist in procuring information ; and he was happy to say that
in every quarter they met with most kind answers from all par-
ties, and all parties seemed disposed to assist them in their inquiry.
They had felt it their duty, whilst sitting in Dublin, to exa-
mine a number of persons there, but they had issued their
circulars, by which they had made it known that it was their
intention to visit various parts of the country, and to make the
examination on the spot. He hoped to be again in Ireland in
March to proceed with the inquiry; and the relations of land-
lord and tenant would then receive their closest at-
tention. He did not go to Ireland to ascertain whether
the landlord was wrong, or the tenant was wrong,
but to ascertain what there was in their subsisting.
relations which led to such a lamentable state of things. It
would be their duty to point out to the Government the best
means in their judgment of removing and alleviating the dis-
tress which pressed down the agricultural population. With
regard to the appointment of a secretary, they had chosen one
who, though perfectly unknown to the Commission, was well
infarmed on the subject of inquiry, and it was but justice to say
that they had reason to be
_pleased with their choice.
The Marquis of WESTMEATII defended the conduct of
the Government, and thanked them for the course they had
adepted in putting down the agitation. As to the objections
with regard to the striking the jury, the Government had no-
thing to do with it. lie defended the Attorney-General,
stating, that he opened his case in a calm and temperate man-
! ner ; his speech was a Vain statement of facts—free from any
1 flowers ofeloquence. He thought 105 Members were enough
to represent the interests of Ireland; and expressed himself
indignant that an English Marquis, having no connexion, by
property, with Ireland, should get up and read them
a lecture on the state of that country.—( Hear, hear. )
He repelled the insinuations that had been made against the
Ir ish magistracy, and thought they did not come from the
Noble Marquis with a very good grace. The Noble Marquis
had alluded to the increase of the burdens of Ireland caused by
the poor-law, but he did not tell them that it was a Whig
measure, originated by a very confident ex-Minister—( A laugh)
—whose reliance on himself had been very well described by the
Rev. Sydney Smith.—(A laugh.) That measure had come to
a complete stand still. He had opposed that measure, which
was only suited 'o a country where there was a money pay-
ment for labour. He described the land let on the system of
con-acre" to the peasantry as let entirely by the middle-men,
and riot by the landlords. He reminded the House that the
history of Irish grievances had been entirely, or almost entirely,
taken from the great leader of the agitation himself. It was
by him the people were told how to think and feel on
the question of their grievances, lie knew the
people of Ireland, anti he was sure that many of the humbler
classes looked for nothing more anxiously than for protection
against the extortions of the repeal exchequer. He described
wasoo ; he refused to allow the rent to be
the people as quite under the
he
he control of
au stpheenirdepdriebsyts,hiaanudiathhneis,e.
had almost all joined the agitation. He knew one honourable
nn tnot
at
a ofl his connexion with the clergy, andiVlay
e a priest whd was educated on the Conti-
nent,
collected g
aita ine his
boastedche
r
influence over the
the opinion on the
icnesoalient.eans
tlatnhoeabNde dnai
bttimloenoasAtl
imaurengainnvi
universally
r sodafel
lsgyeariinbiendg
against the policy of the
Government with respect to Ireland. This arose from the
fact that all Europe took their information and opinions on
this subject from the French press, influencedby the Catholics.
Ile wished that some one abler than himself would take the
pains of informing the people of Europe, by the same means,
of the true state of the Protestant interest in Ireland. The
only authority on the question at present seemed to be the his-
sry of Ireland by Mr. O'Connell himself. Their Lordships,
therefore, might judge of the degree of authority to be attached
to it, as to matters of fact. He concluded by thanking their
Lordships for the attention with which they had heard him.
Lord HOWDEN said that connected as he was by birth
with Ireland he could not refrain from expressing his regret
that the Noble Marquis had thought it his duty—or he would
rather say had thought it expedient—to bring the present mo-
tion before the House. As he had brought it on, he (Lord
Howden) should feel it his duty to vote against it, not that he
did not agree entirely with the Noble Marquis in his wish that
Ireland might share every equal right and equal benefit
with England, but because he thought his motion
was ill-timed, and being ill-timed it was mischievous.
It was particularly mischievous at this moment, when he might
say that it was backed up in Ireland by circumstances which
might—he did not say that its object was to—embarrass the
Government.—(Hear, hear.) And knowing, as the Noble
Marquis did, the acuteness and intelligence of the people of
Ireland, he must be aware that no other result could spring
from it. At that late hour of the night, it was not his inten-
tion to follow the two Noble Marquises through the details of
their brilliant speeches. As the Noble Lord on this side of the
House had said he should only make some general observa-
tions—(A laugh)—and these he should confine to a few of the
remarks made by his Noble Friends. They were mischievous
in this, that they laid all the crying evils of Ireland to the door
of the present Government; and that every thing wrong,
even to the faults in the management of the late
trials, ought to be imputed to them. He had no doabt
that his two Noble Friends would give their
strenuous support to the motion, from an idea, perhaps, that
it was necessary by a parliamentary vote to awaken the fa-
culties and stimulate the slumbering energies of the Govern-
ment. They thought, perhaps, they were supported by one
man in Ireland, who had never allowed an opportunity to
escape, which he could by any chance express his hatred and
contempt of their party. It would be disagreeable to himself and
to them, and at the same time offensive to the House, were he
to repeat the expressions, the course and illiterate epithets—
( Great laughter)--by which that individual had designated the
Whig party.—(Cheers.) But, perhaps they would allow him
to state something that individual had said of the same party
in a festive moment, and as it was of the nature of as anecciete,
it might perhaps relieve the tedium of debate.—(Laughter.)
Ile said that the party to which his Noble Friend belonged
were like old hats that they stopped windows with—(Great
laughter)—that they were nothing, but they served to keep
the other party out. If the Noble Lords were satisfied with
this description, he did not wish to diminish that satisfaction.
He hoped the feeling might shed its charming influence over
them while they continued to sit on the shady side of the
House.—(Laughter.) He (Lord Howden) had no connec-
tion with her Majesty's Government, still he should notice the
the two accusations brought against it • one of them was, that
there was a total indifference to the affairs of Ireland in those
constituting the Government—that, as far as Ireland was con-
cerned, it was a do-nothing Government ; the second accusa-
tion was, that there existed in it an actual hostility to Ireland ;
this was asserted by the Radical portion of the opposition party,
Now, could any man believe, that at this time of day, and at such
a juncture, in the state to which that country had been brought
by the inflammatory speeches made both in Irelind and in that
House, by persons who were not responsible in situation, and,
therefore able to say anything that suited their views. While
the Government was responsible for all they did, and anxious
lest even their indiscreet expressions should produce mischief,
at such a juncture, did not their Lordships think that Ireland
must be the last thought at night and the first thought
at morning, of any Government whatever ?—(Cheers. ) There
could not be a more insidious manner of agitating a high and
noble spirited people than by telling them that they were
neglected by the Government of this country. Why, at pre-
sent, two-thirds of the business of Parliament consisted of
Irish business, to the exclusion of many pressing matters of
their own. He did not find fault with this. He thought the
state of Ireland, and the happiness of the people demanded
and required all their consideration.—( Hear, hear.) But was
it possible to conceive that there was any object in the minds of
theirtheGnowvn pernmeaeenet—,
he wouldevenfor pthentsakite
eovfetn on the most selfishheir own security, and
ground—could they have any permanent object, both for their
own welfare and that of England—but the tranquillisation of
Ireland and their own consequent security ?—(Hear, hear.)