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London, England, 1850-06-12 00:00:00

greater than that possessed by the Treasury of this
empire.
Earl GREY rieferaled the clause, which was subse-
quently agreed to.
The NOBLE EARL then moved, pursuant to notice, the
substitution of the word " diminution" for " alteration,"
with reference to judicial salaries.—Agreed to.
Clause 18 was also understood to hate ueen agreed to
without any discussion.
Clause 19 was then proposed.
Lord LYTTELTON suggested that the power of
forming district councils should not be left in the hands
of the governor except by and with the advice of the
legislative council.
Earl GREY thought that would not be analogous
with the municipal councils in England, and that it
would be inexpedient to adopt the snegestion.
Aft,er a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE,
Earl GREY said that the object of the district coun-
cils was to give the respective localities a control in the
expenditure of their own money.
Clause 19 vs as then agreed to, as were also clauses 21,
22, and 23,
On clause 24,
Lord LYTTELTON rose to propose the amendment
of which he had given notice, with the view r f making
an alteration in the power of dealing with the waste lands
of the colonies. He had come to the conclusion that it
would be impossible and not desirable to maintain
throughout the whole extent of New South Wales and
Port Philip the price of land at 1/. per acre, seeing that
it must necessarily be devoted to pastoral purposes. He
therefore proposed to entrust the power of selling the
waste lands to the governor, with the advice of the Le-
ei=lative Council. The time was come when this power
ought to be entrusted to the local legislature. At the
same time, he altogether objected to the price of land
being reduced to merely a nominal amount. The great
difficulty was in dealing with vested interests—namely,
with the interests of those who had purchased lands
at the higher price. The main answer to that was, that
since 1842, when the Land Sales Act passed, in New
South %Vales and Port Philip the sales had been exceed-
ingly small. He had no objection to make the assent of
the Crown necessary, but the local legislature ought to
be allowed to deal with the question.
Earl GREY thought the proposition of the Noble
Lord would he one of the greatest blows that could be
given to the colonies to which he proposed to apply it.
He would endeavour shortly to explain the policy which
had been adopted with respect to the sale of land in
Australia. Up to 1831 the practice was to grant land
under certain rules, the object of which was to endeavour
as fsr as possible to prevent it being taken by irrespon-
sible parties; and regulations were consequently made,
which looked very well on paper, but which were prac-
tically of no use, for no vigilance was sufficient to
prevent their evasion. Abuses had risen to a great
height, when it was suggested that the real way of
getting rid of the evil was, instead of giving land
away, to sell it. These views were published in an
able pamphlet, and attracted the notice of Lord
Ripon, who was so thoroughly satisfied of the sound-
ness of the principles on which the regulations
were suggested, that he determined to apply them
practically to New South Wales. New instructions
were issued respecting the disposal of the Crown lands.
When the price was named it created great opposition—
and there was not a single individual in the colonies in
favour of the regulation. The price was afterwards
raised to 12s. per acre In 1840 the whole subject
was brought under the consideration of a Select Com-
mittee on the affairs of South Australia; and after a
long and patient inquiry, the Committee came unani-
mously to the conclusion that the price of land ought to
be raised, and that in order to induce persons to pur-
chase more largely, a Parliamentary security ought to
be given against the prices being subsequently lowered. It
was said that such a security would cause large purchases
to be made. These views were adopted by the Secre-
tary of State (Lord J. Russell), but he did not remain
in office sufficiently long to carry them into effect. They
were also adopted by Lord Stanley, and i❑ 1842 a Bill
was brought in, founded on the report of the Com-
mittee, to secure purchasers of land against future re-
ductions of value. Under these circumstances a very
large number of sales took place. It was desirable that
where the extent of the valuable land was unlimited,
the price should be determined by the minimum price
imposed by the Crown; and it was quite clear that if
the minimum price should be reduced the
value of the land already sold must be diminished; and
in fact to reduce the price fixed under the Act of 1842
would be nothing short of confiscation. He would now
call their Lordships' attention to the effects which had
resulted from this system. In 1831 the policy was
adopted of selling land and applying the proceeds of the
land sales to the purposes of emigration. During the
eighteen years which have elapsed the amount of money
derived from the sale of land and applied to the purposes
of emigration in the Australian colonies was no less than
2,500,0001. The first application of money derived from
these sales to emigration took place on the recommen-
dation of a Committee in 1831, the amount calculated
upon not exceeding 10,0004 At that time there were no
means of sending labouring men at a reasonable price to
the Australian colonies, the lowest amount being about
401. for aF steerage passage, but the charge was now 121.
or 14/, With infinitely superior accommodation. Under
this system the number of persons sent to the Australian
colonies during that period was 117,600. Nor was that
ail; for in consequence of the stimulus thus given to
emigration, 61,750 persons had voluntarily gone to
Australia, making a total of 179,300 souls. This
had been effected without any expense to this
country, and he contended that such a system
ought not to be rashly dealt with. He would
call their Lordships' attention to another circumstance.
He held in his hand a petition against a clause contained
in the Bill allowing the Federal Legislature to deal with
the price of the land. The petitioners stated that they
had purchased their land on the faith of the report of the
Committee to which he had referred, and what they con-
sidered a Parliamentary guarantee that the price of land
should not be diminished. These were the circumstances
under which the measure was proposed; and if the con-
fidence of the purchasers was shaken, the discontinuance
of the present system must follow. It had been said
that IL was not a high price for land intended for agri-
cultural purposes, but the grazing land was not worth
that sum. It was not worth 55., it was not, in fact, worth
In 1846 a measure was passed authorising the
Crown to establish regulations for the occupation of
waste lands for pastoral purposes, and the papers on the
table showed that those regulations had been satisfac-
tory. Ho conceived that Crown lands ought to be
held in trust by her Majesty for the benefit of all
her subjects, and they ought not to be engrossed
by a few persons to the detriment of the future
settlers. But if the price of lands in Australia
were to be greatly reduced, they would in a short time
bo bought up by speculators, and the settlers would have
to pay not 11. per acre, but a price fixed by the holder,
without gaining any advantage like that which they
derived under the present system. The only security
against this engrossment of the public lands was to
maintain the existing laws and the existing minimum
price. There was a disposition to acquire larger quan-
tities of land than was consistent with the public interest,
which it was difficult to deal with. It must also be re-
collected that a considerable portion of the money ob-
tained from land sales went back to the colonists in the
shape of bridges, roads, and other essential improve-
ments necessary for the comfort and progress of the
colony. It was desirable, therefore, that all the money
not spent to promote suitable emigration should be ex-
pended for local improvements and objects. It was said
that this would encourage a spirit of jobbing, but he con-
sidered that proper checks on the expenditure of the
money would do away with this anticipation. These were
the grounds on which he supported the measure in pre-
ference to the amendment. He had been told that the
colonists were against this measure. He denied that this
was the fact. Public opinion was very much divided on
the subject. South Australia was very much in favour
of the Land Sales Act, and in New South Wales public
opinion was very much divided on the subject. The
Legislative Council, he believed, were in favour of the
minimum price of U. per acre, though they had passed a
resolution against it. If under the existing system,
Australia had grown up into a colony of great import-
ance—if the system had effected as much good as he had
stated, he hoped their Lordships would maintain it un-
altered.

Lord MONTEAGLE supported the amendment.
The old system had been subverted by his Noble Friend,
and for that act ho deserved the thanks of the country
and the colonists ; but it did not fullow that the system
the Noble Earl wished now to introduce was such a sys-
tem as ought to have the approval of that House. In
the year 1842, a report adverse to the present land sys-
tem was adopted. In 1844 a similar report was made.
In 1846 a resolution to the same effect was agreed to in
the Council. In 1847 another report was made and
adopted, of a similar character ; and iu 1849 the report
before the House was agreed to. On these grounds, and
because these were the opinions of the colonies from
1842 to 1850, he called on the House to adopt the
amendment.
Lord LYTTELTON replied.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
Content ...
Not content ...
Majority ...

... 28
... -10

Lord REDESDALE suggested the postponement of
the Bill over Thursday, as it would be inconvenient to
proceed on it for the next few days.
Earl GREY asked the House whether it would be be-
coming the House to postpone the business of the country
for the amusement of a few of their Lordships. Oue day
it was for races here, another for races there; one
day for a great dinner in the City, another for a great
dinner elsewhere. The House should go on with the
business of the country if it wished to preserve its
character; but to postpone a Bill of that important na-
ture at half-past ten o'clock would be worse than pre-
posterous. He perceived a desire to defeat the Bill by
protracting the proceedings; but last year. it would be
remembered that the House had sat until five o'clock in
the morning on the navigation-laws. He trusted, there-
fore, the Bill would be proceeded with, and no further
delay attempted.
Lord MONTEAGLE said the other House had fixed on
business for the days in question with the consent of the
Government. He was, however, ready to go on with the
Bill.

Lord REDESDALE said the Irish Franchise Bill
had been postponed over Thursday on account of the
day in question. He never declined to attend to the
business of the country; but he was of opinion that it
would be better for the House to postpone the discussion
until the individuals who were to take part in it were
present.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he had put off
the Irish Franchise Bill solely at the request of a Noble
Lord then absent, and for no other motive.
After a few words from Lord ABINGER the Bill was
proceeded with.
The Bishop of OXFORD then proposed a clause, the
object of which was to relieve, the Church of Engla-id in
the colonies from the restrictions imposed by the statute
laws passed to regulate the Church since the RefQrzna-

lion. It had been foreseen when bishops were created
for colonies that difficulties would ariso on the
point, and the bishops had power in their patents
to hear and determine causes in their courts as
in this country. But doubts having arisen on the
question, and the patents having been declared beyond
the law, they were consequently withdrawn. The posi.
tion of the Church of England in the colonies was,
therefore, such that she could not make rules for her
own regulations, or to bind her followers. It was to
remedy this that the clause was intended. He had un-
derstood the Noble Earl to state that a reverend gen-
tleman high in position in the colonies had admitted
that the remedy lay with the Colonial Legislature, and
not with the Imperial , but that reverend gentleman,
who was the chaplain of the Bishop of Tasmania, ad-
vocated the removal of the doubts that at present ex-
isted among members of the Church of England on the
subject of the power in question. The writer went on
to state that the Church of England in the colony could
not make or enforce regulations such as the Church of
Rome and the Church of Scotland could make. Ano-
ther point related to the visitation of bishops. The
Bishop of Tasmania, it appeared, was of opinion that an
additional service was required at St. David's, Hobart
Town, and took steps to establish it, but the chaplain
of the church thought his rights interfered with, and
refused admission to the Bishop to the church. The
Bishop came to the church, attended by a large congre-
gation in the street, and the churchwardens at last, from
fear of violence, unlocked the doors, but the dispute
had never been settled by any rules. Tho result was
that the members of the Church of England in the
colony felt they were subjected to difficulties and re-
strictions which no other religious body was subjected to,
and that the clergy not standing on an equal f,oting
were deprived of much of their usefulness. They were
subjected to just enough of ecclesiastical law to restrain
them, but to too little to make their position intelligible
and their administration effective. The remedy which
he proposed by this clause was merely to permit the
members of the Church, bishops and clergy, to assem-
ble together, and by consent to lay down rules for their
own internal government, and to make it impossible for
those who consented to such rules to appeal to other
courts. If the experiment was found to succeed, then
would be the time to apply to the colonial legislature to
give the form of an enactment to these rules. He
wished to set the Church free, not from local, but from
Imperial legislation in this matter. He wished by this
clause to remedy a doubt, or, as some thought, an ille-
gality. Ile had no desire to see the Church of England
in the colony deriving her influence from being what was
called a dominant church, but from her spiritual power
and efficacy. He desired to free it from the embarrass-
ments of that anomalous connexion with the Church at
home which gave it neither rule nor freedom. It had
been said that there would be danger in that, because it
might lead the Church in the colony to adopt some new
faith, and to separate altogether from the Church at
home. He thought he would meet that objection
by the proviso which ho intended to propose,
that no regulation adopted should authorise a
bishop to exercise any ecclesiastical function except
he had taken the oath of allegiance, and bad
subscribed the Articles of the United Church of England
and Ireland; that any matter touching the see of Can-
terbury might be disallowed by that see; and that no
such regulations should be binding except on the
bishops, clergy, and " declared" members of the Church
in that colony. It had also been objected that the clause
would give the Church an advantage over °thy denomi-
nations; but if the last words of the pr4Viso were
adopted that objection would be obviated, for they were
to the effect that such regulations should not affect the
laws and regulations of other religibus communities in
the colony. He rejoiced to hear the Noble Earl declare
last night that the Government were anxious to aid the
Church in the colony in working herself free from the
restrictions on the exercise of her spiritual power, pro-
vided that could be done without injury to others.
Another objection was, that however good the clause
might be, it was not right to introduce it in a
special Act referring to a special colony, but
that it should make part of a general Bill, applying
generally to all the colonies. But as the Noble Earl
did not find it wise to propose one general measure, in
temporal and political matters for all the colonies gene-
rally, but rather proposed special measures for special
colonies, suited to the peculiar circumstances of each,
so by the same analogy he considered that in spiritual
matters particular measures suited to the particular cir-
cumstances of each colony ought to be proposed, instead
of one general spiritual measure, applicable generally
to all the colonies. In fact, such an objection was only
an attempt to get rid of the motion by a side-wind. He
hoped, however, that their Lordships would give the
clause all that deliberate consideration which an attempt
to meet a great practical grievance, pressing upon the
colonies, deserved to obtain. He begged to move the
insertion of the clause of which he had given notice in the
Bill.

Earl GREY hoped the Right Rev. Prelate would not
press the House to come to a decision upon the question.
The subject was one of great difficulty, with which
they could not safely deal by introducing a clause
of this kind. They could not agree to it
without carefully considering who were the
parties by whom and what was the manner in
which the powers it conferred should be exercised. By
agreeing to the clause they would create a legislative
authority in the Church of England in the colonies. By
its terms the colonial bishop was not to consecrate a
minister of religion unless the party subscribed the Ar-
ticles of the Church of England, and gave his assent to
the Book of Common Prayer. But in case of any dif-
ference of opinion is the proposed council of clergy and
laity, what would the Right Rev. Prelate think of a de-
cision by a majority in the sense of a late decision of the
Judicial Committee of Privy Council ? Again, what
was the meaning of the words the mutual consent
of clergy and laity respectively?" He (Earl Grey)
was positively unabld to construe those words.
Again, in matters of this kind they must guard
against clashing with the local legislature. If
they introduced a special clause of this kind in
this Bill, it would be considered that it was intended to
overrule their local legislation. It was far better, in-
stead of taking the course now proposed, to reserve
the subject for more general and more deliberate
consideration.
The Bishop of SALISBURY would vote for the
clause. If the Noble Earl would promise to give a fair
and candid consideration to the subject, he would sug-
gest to his Right Rev. Friend not to proceed to a divi-
sion. But the Noble Earl spoke of the difficulties in the
way of dealing with the subject, as if they presented in-
superable obstacles to their arrangement.
The Bishop of LIMERICK could not give his consent
to the clause. Instead of being of advantage to the
peace of the colony, it would only lead to dissensions
and differences, which would be aggravated by the delays
occasioned by a reference to their metropolitan in the
mother country. It was utterly impossible for him to
support the clause of the Right Rev. Prelate; and if the
latter would allow him, as a junior member of that House
to make a suggestion, he would recommend the Right
Rev. Prelate not to press the matter, but to leave it in
the hands of the Government. He was anxious that
peace should prevail in all subjects connected with the
Church, and under present circumstances they were
bound to act with the greatest circumspection.—(Hear)
The Earl of HA RRO WBY, who was very indistinctly
heard, was understood to say that the clause before them
was more a declaration of opinion than one upon which
to legislate. He hoped his Learned and !tight Rev.
Friend would not press his proposition on that occasion.
In
to
legislating
for the colonies on that subject it was
necessary consider the different positions and circum-
stances under which each of the colonies respectively
was placed.
The Earl of CHICHESTER, who was almost totally
inaudible in the gallery, was understood to observe that
great inconvenience was felt in the colonies in conse-
quence of the uncertainty of the law as it at present
stood. He hoped something would be done to remedy
that evil, and indeed it was most advisable to have a re.
vision of the entire state of the law respecting the
Church in the colonies.
The Bishop of DOWN and CONNOR said the ques-
tion on the present occasion resolved itself into the in-
the Right Rev. Prolate
acknowledged on all sides of the House to exist. As he
gdwiuedirreynotthe evils which were
the Right Rev. Prelate
was understood), he would oppose the clause.
whetherthisufficientn tthhoeerypnrwoo
top
were
propositions ts icooon(r sar
eseeft•
Lord REDESDALE approved of the principle of the
clause, and would support it, but would not recommend
his Right Rev. friend to press it to a division.
Lord LYTTELTON thought the Government was
leaving the present question in a very unsatisfactory
state. He wished to know whether there would be Any-
thing like a promise given of an inquiry into the subject
on a future occasion.
Earl GREY was understood to say that he could give
no specific answer on that question to his Noble Friend.
The Bishop of OXFORD, in briefly replying, said if
he got any definite answer that an inquiry would take
place this session or next, he would be content to wait
any reasonable time, and to leave the matter in the
hands of the Government.—(Hear.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE admitted the ex-
istence of the grievance; but if it was scarcely fair to
call upon the bench of Right Rev. Prelates, whose atten-
tion must have been turned to the subject, to produce a
plan to remedy it, how much less fair would it be to call
upon the Government to provide a remedy, especially
without having had an opportunity of communicating
with the members of the Church in the colonies? His
Noble Friend had gone as far as he could under the cir-
cumstances. The grievance must be examined into and
fully probed, and the nature of the remedy considered.
His Noble Friend was hardly called on to state whether
the inquiry should be conducted by a Commission or
otherwise. All that the Government could say was, that
the matter should be looked into at no very distant pe-
riod, he might almost say forthwith. No unnecessary
delay should intervene, but the most effectual inquiry
should be instituted, and the best remedies that could be
devised should be adopted.
Earl PO WIS thought the Right Rev. Prelate was
fully justified in calling on the Government for an as-
surance that the subject should receive consideration
at their hands. It was not a subject to be dealt with
by private Members without the assistance of the Go-
vernment.
The Bishop of OXFORD said if the Noble Earl would
introduce a declaratory statement that the disabling
Acts which bound the Church of England should not
bind the Church in the colony, he should be perfectly
content to let the matter rest where it was. He was
willing to withdraw his motion, and propose it in an
amended form in the report,
Earl GREY objected to give the pledge required
by the Right Rev. Prelate, thinking it improper to make
distinctions between the hurch in this country and the
colonies.
The Bishop of OXFORD, after the answer given by
the Government, would not press his =tea,.
The motion was then withdrawn; the He :a: resumed,
and the report was brought up.
The douse adjourued at a Quarter to Ono o'clock,