The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-11 00:00:00

CASE OF MR. RYLAND.

The Duke of ARGYLL rese to move the following
resolutions of which he had given notice:—

" 1. That it is the opinion of this House that the case of
George Herman Ryland, late clerk of the Executive
Council of Canada, as set forth in a petition presented
to this House on the Bth of June, 1849, and as further
set forth in addresses voted to her Majesty by the Le-
gislative Assembly, and by the Legislative Council of
Canada, in 1846 (on the report of a Committee specially
appointed to inquire into the circumstances of the said
case) is one of great hardship and injustice.
" 2. That it appears from the papers laid on the table
of this house, that this hardship and injustice has been
acknowledged both directly and indirectly, by successive
Governor-Generals of Canada, by both branches of the
Legislature in that province, as wall as by the Imperial
Government.

means should be taken to meet the matter through the
medium of Imperial funds.
The Duke of ARGYLE replied, and said he would
move only the first, :,econd, and fifth resolutions.
Their Lordships divided, and their numbers were—
Contents for the resolutions ... 22
Non-contents ... ... 19
Majority for the resolutions... ... —3
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 10.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The Lords' amendments to the following Bills were
considered and agreed to:—
Architects, Civil Engineers, Builders, and General
Fire and Life Insurance, Annuity, and Reversionary In-
terest Company (incorporation of the company under a
different name).
Clerical, Medical, and General Life Assurance Society.
Wakefield Borough Market.

The following Bill was read a third time and passed—
Great Northern Railway Deviations, Amendment of
Acts, Alteration of Tolls, and of East Lincolnshire
Railway Tolls.
The following Bills as amended were considered and
agreed to--.

Liverpool Corporation Waterworks (Extension of Time
for Parehase of Land, Sic.)
Waterford and Kilkenny Rtilway.
MANCHESTER RECTORY DIVISION BILL.

Mr. GOULBURN proposed an amendment to this
Bill to the effect, that the salary of the canons of Man-
chester should be 7501. instead of 6001. a year.
Mr. M. GIBSON opposed the amendment on the
ground that after a full consideration of tb• Bill by the
Committee they had come to the conclusion that 6001.
was an ample remuneration for the canons. The object of
the Bill was to apply the parochial revenues to the pa.
rochial purposes generally of Manchester, and if the
amendment of th• Right Hon. Gentleman were agreed to
the result would be to trench further upon the surplus
fund, out of which the poorer clergy were paid. The
amendment was inconsistent with the whole principle of
the Bill, and he was therefore decidedly opposed to its
introduction.

Lord JOHN MANNERS supported the amendment.
Mr. PLUMPTRE thought the Bill would be far
better without the amendment.
Sir BENJAMIN HALL thought the salaries of the
canons should be decreased to 5001. a year instead of
augmented, because they did not properly discharge the
duties of their office, and most of them left those duties
to be performed by deputies. There were as many as
fifty or sixty churches in Manchester, and the average
endowment did not exceed 801. a year, and he thought
it would not be just or fair to deprive the poorer clergy-
men, who really did their duty, of a portion of their re-
muneration fur the purpose of increasing the salary of
the canons.
Sir GEORGE GREY considered the Bill was a most
valuable one, and should be sorry if it did not receive
the sanction of Parliament. The Bill as it originally
stood proposed togive the Canons 5001. each, but the Com-
mittee, after due deliberation, raised it to 6001., and he,
therefore, thought some strong grounds ought to be
stated before they consented to depart from the decision
of the Committee.

"3. That it is the opinion of this House, that the
guarantee given by Lord Sydenham to the said George
Herman Ryland, bearing date the 23d of August, 1841,
constituted an engagement, to which the faith of the
Crown war pledged.
" 4. That it is the opinion of this House that the funds
derived from colonial sources, but placed at the disposal
of the Crown, independent of the colonial Legislature,
were those liable for the fulfilment of Lord Sydenham's
guarantee, but that the voluntary abandonment of the
said funds, or of any part of them, by the Imperial Go-
vernment, does not absolve it from the obligation of re-
deeming the promise of the Crown:—
"5. That it is the opinion of the House that the
claims of the said Georsse Herman Ryland, which have
heretofore been officially acknowledged, ought not to
be avoided or overlooked, and :hat he has a right to ex-
pect that the agreement entered into between him and
the Governor-General, of which he has performed his
part, should be carried into effect according to its terms;
or as they may now be impossible, that ho shonld be
compensated for the non-fulfilment thereof."
The Noble Duke entered at great length into the cir-
cumstance of Mr. Ryland's case, which have already
been very fully laid before the public, and concluded by
expressing his opinion that the Government were bound
to award compensation to Mr. Ryland for the abolition
of his office as clerk of the Executive Council of Canada,
to which ho had given his consent on the express gua-
rantee of Lord Sydenham that he should be appointed to
a new office of equal value, and which guarantee had
never been fulfilled. They might resist the claim on
the ground that Lord Sydenham, who made the promise
to Mr. Ryland, did not live to explain the reasons why
he had made the promise. He trusted, ho wever, they
would urge no such reason, for there was nothing in it.
There was another ground on which this claim might be
rested, and it was this—tha: Mr. Ryland might have
conducted his office in such a manner as to realise all
his expectations in respect to it. This would be no
answer to the promise made by Lord Sydenham, but he
must deny that there was any truth in the statement
that Mr. Ryland had not conducted his Mice with due
economy. The Noble Duke concluded by saying that
the Government were bound to see that the promises
made by the representative of the Crown were fulfilled.
Earl GREY entered into a brief history of this case.
In 1838 the Earl of Durham, the governor of Canada,
appointed Mr. Ryland to a higher office than he then
held in Canada. In 1839 Lord Normanby, when Secre-
tary for the Colonies, in a letter to the Governor of
Canada, stated that in the event of the Canadas being
united, and Mr. Ryland losing his office, he was not to
have compensation fur the loss of his office. The union
took place, and accordingly Mr. Ryland would be only
. _

Mr. DEEDES, having had the honour of sitting as
Chairman of the Select Committe, was anxious to say a
few words upon this subject.—(clear, hear.) The
Committee were not unanimous in fixing the income
at 6001., but three years ago Parliament passed a public
Act, fixing the future income of the Dean at 2,0001.,
and that of the canons at half that sum, and the Com-
mittee did not feel altogether justified in changing that
law.—(Hear, hear.) It was therefore proposed that as
the income of the Dean was 1,5001., that of the canons
ought to be 7501., but eventually the income was fixed
by the Committee at COOL He was sorry that his
Honourable Friend the Member for Marylebone
had thought proper to introduce personalities into
this debate, because he knew that when the evi-
dence taken before the Committee was printed, it
would turn out that it did not justify the strictures which
his Right Hon. Friend had passed upon some of the gen-
tlemen interested in the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHILDERS assured the House that the reason
the sum was not fixed at 750/. was, the desire of the
Committee to be as unanimous as possible upon the de-
cision they came to.—(Hear, hear.) They ought to
look to where that additional sum, amounting to 6001.
a year, would go. It would go into the parish of Man-
chester, consisting of 400,000 inhabitants.—(Hear, hear.)
Under these circumstances he could not help thinking
the House would do better to adhere to the opinion of
the Committee.

Mr. HORSMAN thought the House had every reason
to be satisfied with the proceedings of the Committee on
this Bill. This was not a question of payment, but it
was one of apportionment and distribution; and he called
on the House to remember that in every 1201. they gave
to one of those canons they took a living from a clergy-
man, and a pastor from his congregation.
Mr. W ADDINGTON bore his testimony to the effi-
cient manner in which the Dean and Canons of Man-
chester discharged their duties, and he did not think it
fair under these circumstances to come forward and at-
tempt to throw opprobium upon these gentlemen.
Mr. lIUME wished to know what the parochial duties
were which these gentlemen had to perform. On their
own admission they never considered they had any
duties to perform, and they never had any to perform.
Sir R. U. INGLIS supported the amendment.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said that th• question of
pluralities was not an ecclesiastical question, but a
question of common sense. It was an abuse which
would not be suffered in any other service but the service
of God. If these gentlemen were firced to do all their
duty they would have to hold service in the cathedral
every hour in the day from six to six.—(Laughter.)
Gentlemen might laugh, but that really was the origin
of cathedrals.

entitled to a compensation of so much per month for the
time he held the office, that being the principle upon
which the Board of Treasury compensated persons in
)lair. Ryland's position. But Lord Sydenhane did give
the promise referred to, and he (Earl Grey) thought the
provincial Government ought to have carried it out.
Lord Metcalf, although he felt that Mr. Ryland had no
claim on the Government, yet gave him the office
of registrar of Quebec, and gave him 150/. a year
its addition, to make up the emoluments of the
office; subsequently Mr. Ryland was appointed
to another office and the pension was taken away
frein him by Lord Metcalf, who felt that the proceeds
of the new office were equal to all that could fairly
be required by Mr. Ryland. Lord Metcalf's conduct in
this matter was approved of by Lord Stanley, when se-
cretary of the colonies. Lord Metcalf had written home,
declaring Mr. Ryland had no claim for compensation.
It appeared from the last minute of the Executive Coun-
cil that the claim of Mr. Ryland were still under consi-
deration of the provincial Government, and for this rea-
son alone, were all others wanting. He conceived their
Lordships would be of opinion Oat there was no evi-
dence to show that the colonial Government were indis-
posed to deal with Mr. Ryland in a proper spirit, and
therefore that there was no ground for the interference
of the House. Under the circumstances of the case,
however, he should mot meet the motion of his Noble
Friend with a direst negative, but he should only ask
their Lordships to refuse to allow the question to be put,
by moving the previous question. If the Noble Duke,
who had brought the question forward, had had the Ex-
perience which he (Earl Grey) had had in the other
House of Parliament, and knew as he knew, in what
temper such a question would there be entered upon, he
thought that his views on the subject would at least be
considerably modified. The Noble Earl concluded by
moving the previous question.
Lord STANLEY said he thought that all of their
Lordships who had followed the clear and comprehen-
sive statement of the Noble Duke behind him, would
itigree with him in thinking that he had brought to their
notice a case of gross and grievous hardship. It ap-
peared from the correspondence relative to it, which ex•
tended as far back as the administration of Lord Gos-
ford, that no fewer than six Governors-General of Ca-
nada had taken a part in the several circumstances de-
tailed in it, themselves of no inconsiderable complica-
tion' An application had been made to the Government
that me. Ryland might bo Clerk to the Council after
3
the death of his father, office er, who had held the before.
lewd Gosford
Durham went oile)trhha
prohibited the arrangement. but Lord
with a knowledge of the corres-
pondence and inst'ruchtion to the contrary, made the ap-
pointment, but without reporting it. Lord Norman by
being afterwards re to
held
the mandamus,
Mr. Ryland believignug"thteadili eld the office by patent,
consented to forward it on econditiondin of his being able
itlllunion of the 0 hold the office, notwithstanding
pro-
vinces. When the office had been held
ty
Sydenham took upon himself theorer:e,ye n
s d
Of entering into an engagement w
land that he should have anoth©r officeoitfh
equal
emolu-
ment, y
or that his income should be made u:
in case that which he 11:etrclorn should
other source,
fall off in its revenue. Lord Sydenham had no rightitolantod
do that, but he (Lord Stanley) thought that Mr.
was entitled, nevertheless, to a retiring allowance! Al-
though quite unable to enforce
by law the fulfilment of
the engagement made by Lord Sydenham, he thought it
due to the maintenance of good faith between the Crown
and its deserving servants, that their promises should be
made good, and he lns
wtrauscted Lord Metcalf
P
He (Lortdo gotans°
accordingly, as far as it
ley) now wished to ask the Noble Earl opposite (Earl
Grey) whether he bad banded over
ment the money which to the local Govern-
should have been applied to this
-
purpose—whether he had voluntarily sacrificed the
rights of the Crown, and placed its faithful servants at
the disposal of a legislature which, if it might be judged
by the acts of its officers, were so far effected by demo-
cratic views, as to repudiate instead of confirm appoint-
ments previously made in good faith? His Noble Friend
did not ask either House of Parliament to make good
this loss. That was the province of the local Govern-
ment, and all that this motion contemplated,
w
ex-
pression of their Lordships'
()Pinion of the injustice aniceanc
hardship with which Mr. Ryland had been treated. If
his Noble Friend pressed e-
should certainly his resolutions to a division, he
support
Lord Stanle Pohim in the Ist, 2d, and sth.
b
to answer the question put to him
rose
1-1° Saidehatically, t hathe Crown,
he had
not sacrificed they. power which pelonged to t
but had acted in that matter,
:e coneidered most condu-
cive in all others relating
b
to Canads, in the way which ha
to the perpetuation of h
leaweea the two
_provinces.

Mr. BRIGHT wished, as a representative of Man-
chester, to say a few words on the matter.
It might be considered presumptuous for a Dissenter, as
every one knew him to be, to express an opinion with
regard to the funds of the Church; but, looking at the
decision of the Committee as a Member of Parliament,
and as a citizen of a community, he thought the Com-
mittee only did what any body of six or a dozen sensible
men would have done with regard to the funds brought
under their consideration.—(Loud cries cf " Mar,
hear.") The Bill, as it came from the Com-
mittee, would give great satisfaction to all persons who
where in the habit of attending the services of the
Church in Mancha:ter. The way in which the funds of
the Church had been appropriated there had always
been pointed at as an argument, and a very strong argu-
ment, against the management of Church affairs gene-
rally. What the Comm :tee proposed was simply that
the canons should receive 6001. a year, and rectors
2501., besides certain fees, which could not be
defined in the Bill ; and if they raised those
sums, the result would be to defer the accumulation of

the fund which it was expected would be derived frem a
better management of the collegiate establishment. The
Bill would give satis!action not only to Churchmen but
to Dissenters in Manchester, and he therefore trusted
the llcuse would pass the Bill in its present shape.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ..
Against it
Majority against
The amendment was accordingly rejected. The other
amendments were then considered and agreed to, and
the Bill ordered to b- engrossed.
NOTICES OF MOTION.

Lord NAAS gave notice that on an early day after
Whitsuntide he should call the attention of the House to

the duties charged on home made spirits in Ireland; and
also, that in consequence of not being able to obtain cer-
t .in returns, ho should not be able to bring on his motion

which stood in the paper for Tuesday evening.
IRISII ENCUMBERED ESTATES.

Mr. FRENCH wished to ask a question of the
Solicitor-Gene; al. It was in reference to a sale of an
estate in Westmeath under the Encumbered Estates
Act, in which the surveyor had included 44 acres of a
neighbouring estate which had been sold and a Parlia-
mentary title given to them; he wished to know what
steps the owner of these acres must take is order to re-
cover them. . .

~....._.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that he had re-
ceived no notice of this question, and as he suspected
that the Hon. Gentleman must be mistaken in his in-
formation, he thought that it was desirable that he should
have some days' notice of the question. He had had no
information on the subject himself.
ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS.
Mr. HORSMAN asked the First Lord of the Trea-
sury when the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were to pre-
sent another general report; and, also, whether any and
what proceedings had been taken either by them or the
Bishop of
Gloucester, since 1848, in the case of the
estate of Horfield?
Lord J. RUSSELL replied that he was unable to say
when
the next general report of the Commissioners
would be
laid before the House, and as to the
second question, that the
arrangement with re-
spect to the estate of
the con-
Mr. STAFFORD asked the Home Secretary whether
it was the intention
lege of Surgeons as should enable
fellows
without examination. eofetnhuencßiloytaol
eCI
eocl -t
Sir G. GREY was understood to state that the Go-
vernment had, at present, no intention to make such an
alteration in the charter of the Royal College of
RESPONSIBILITY OF GOVERNMENT IN RE-
GARDAGSAVINGS'AN
asked BANKS.
h
Surgeons.
Mr. WILLIAM TEO
Chancellor of
the Exchequer whether it was intendedt that the e
Go-
vernment should be responsible for all
from depositors of savings banks by the treasurer
moneys receives
his clerk. Also, whether he
would
any objection to introduce a clause inthe have
distinctly assuming this responsibility; if, on th e Bill,t
her
hind, it was not intended that Government shouldo
responsible, whether it was proposed to make be
the
trustees liable for such default?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it
was intended that the Government should be responsible
for all moneys received by the treasurer of a savings
bank or his clerk. The treasurer and his clerk would,
in tact, be the servants of the Government. He did not
think it would be necessary to introduce a clause into
the Bill with regard to the responsibility of the Go-
vernment.
PAYMENT OF ASSISTANT GUARDIANS.
Mr. TAYLOR asked the Home Secretary whether
the Government meant to make any provision for the
Payment of assistant guardians to unions in Ireland?
Sir G. GREY replied that it was not the intention
of the Government to make the slightest provision for
the Payment of assistant guardians, but observed there
were certain cases in which an inspector might be ap-
pointed to act in the capacity of an assistant-guardian,
and that he might be peal

Lord BROUGHAM supported the motion' and con-
tended that it was not only a hardship, but an
injustice,
to Mr. Ryland, to refuse him the compensation which
he was promised by Lord Sydenhare.
The Earl GRANVILLE said that moving the pre-
vious question was the most respectable way of meeting
the case.
Lord GLENELG said that, after all ho had heard, the
impression left on hie mind was that a great injustice
had been done to Mr. Ryland. The question was not a
mere colonial one, it was an Imperial one.—(Hear.) The
guarantee, therefore, of the Queen's representative
ought not to be overlooked. If the colonial funds were
not available to meet the promise made in this ease,

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING,

made to reduce the duty from 23. a to Is. Now it
did so happta. that e. more inconvenient sum could not
have not have been fixed upon. Whilst it sacrificed
considerable revenue, it would not agree with any exist-
ing stamp; new dies would be necessary, and thus cell-
siderable expense and inconvenience would be occa-
sioned. After the decision in favour of 1:. some delay
took piece, and during that time he received representa-
tions from all parts of the country expressing the utmost
anxiety that the measure should be proceeded with. He
would read a short extract from one of the representa-
tions on that subject, showing that even as the measure
was originally proposed, it would have been considered
a great boon by a large portion of the country. The
letter, which came from a committee of attorneys in
Somersetshire, was signed by four gentlemen of the
bigbest character. They said—" Perhaps few statutes
which have ever passed: the Legislature have been more
perplexing or more fruitful of litigation than the
Stamp Act, 55 Gee. 111., gap. 184, now in
force; and while, therefore, the proposed measure of
Government is just and equitable, it is one of which all
who have had any experience in the existing stamp-
laws have felt the urgent need. We beg, sir, further to
state that, in the course of the many years' experience
which we have had of the present Stamp Act, no part of
it has appeared to us to be more unequal in its pressure,
or more unjust in its principle, than that which imposes
the duties now payable on bonds and mortgages. And
we think (in common, we believe, with the members of
our pruf-ssion and the public generally) that a uniform
ad valorem duty of ss. per 1001., as proposed by her Ma-
jesty's Government, on all bonds and mortgages, in lieu
of the present unequal, and, in some ease!,
oppressive
scale, will be liberal and just, and that it will be suffi-
cieutly low to meet all the requirements and all the
reasonable expectations of those on whom the payment
of these duties will fall." That statement showed that
in the opinion of these parties the propositions
of the Government were fair and equitable. He
would now proceed to suite the course which he in-
tended to adopt. In the first place, he proposed to
discharge the present order altogether, and intro-
duce a new Bill, containing the clauses of the
old Bill, together with those which had been framed
upon the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Ciren-
cester. He proposed to impose a uniform duty upon
conve7ances and transfers of property of 1 per cent. ad
valorem. This would not give so much relief as he had
been desirous of affording in the case of small convey-
ances; but, nevertheless, considerable benefit would be
given in such cases. Upon mortgages and bonds he pro-
posed a uniform duty of *per cent. This would slightly
increase the sum voted by the House, but it would
prevent the inconvenience to which he had referred wish
respect to the stamp. The sum proposed by the House
was Is. Ilts proposal was per cant. carried uniformly
forward, which would considerably relieve all mortgages
and bonds for sums up to 12,0001. With regard to leases
he proposed that the Bill should stand as it did at pre
sent, with the exception of leases for lives in Ire-
land. He proposed to place 55., or per cent., upon set-
tlements or money, or money raised upon land. Some
Hon. Gentlemen were labouring under a strange mis-
apprehension as to the imposition of a duty upon con-
tingent annuities. His object was to omit the words in
the. existing law, so that henceforward contingent an-
nut ties would be free. He proposed to repeal altoge-
the duty on leases for one year, and to reduce the duty
on transfers of mortgage to an ad valorem duty. This
Bill would relieve almost all transfers of mortgage. lie
proposed to reduce the duty on memorials, which at pre-
sent is 10s. to 2s. 6d. Then with respect to the convey-
ance skins which were subject to progressive duties,
varying from 20s. to 255., he proposed to subject them
to a uniform duty of 10s. He also proposed to allow
the Commissioners of Stamps to settle the amount of
duty on deeds on the payment of 10s. additional, such
decision to be final, and to make the deed valid. Before
cencluding he would read an extract from a letter which
ho had received from the council of the Law Society of
London, in which they stated—" The council are glad
to find that there is a disposition on the part of Govern-
ment to reduce the ad valorem duty on mortgages to
2s. 6d. per cent. The council are decidedly of opinion
that with these alterations and amendments, and assum-
ing the ad valorem duty on conveyances to be fixed at
20s. per cent., and on settlement of personal property
and of money, charged on land and immediately rats•
able, at ss. per cent., the Bill will operate
most beneficially for the interests of the public in
general, and will effect a very equitable and consider-
able reduction in the stamp duties payable on mort-
gages and conveyances of small amounts, to the great
advantage and relief of the classes on whomthese duties
have hitherto falleu in a very disproportionate rate."
The Right Hon. Gentleman then moved that the order
for the Stamp Duties Bill be read, order that it might
be discharged, and as it was desirable that no time
goon
isuhtooucl do
mb emlot
ttsc,e hoenproposedy t
ipn m
orderove that
atshse a
rl
el os
oulsuet
whereon to found the new Bill.
Mr. T. EGERTON inquired whether the Right Hon.
Gentleman, in framing the new Bill, had paid any atten-
tion to the suggestion made by . the Incorporated
Law Society of Manchester respecting leases in per-
petuity?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—I pro-
pose to leave them exactly as they are.
Mr. HEADLANI wished to know whether the Right
Hon. Gentleman intended to include receipt stamps in
his Bill?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
had found so much difficulty in dealing with one class
of stamp duties that he trusted he should not be pressed
with respect to another.
The motion was then agreed to, and the order %
discharged.

PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS, &c. (IRELAND

BILL.

Mr. HATCHELL moved the third reading of this
Bill.

Si
r settlement
Jhe
t.,
ttWi
edmAa
eyLn
stSi
xf 1
ofmonths,tmovedhe that
Irish
u tecoecnos Bnt i
contended
elulne
dnbece e
dy
that
a ought
tth
tetoh
toi r
bed
final, if anything could be considered to be final—that
although the fixing of a property qualification was sup-
pose.' to increase the number of voters, that did not
happen to be the case with respect to Ireland, where con-
stituencies had melted away and disappeared. When
the present measure was first laid on the table, it was
quite apparent that it was not a Bill to remedy the evils
which had arisen from the. Reform Bill, but a measure
calculated to introduce a more democratic system. One
of the clauses was so objectionable that at one time the
Noble Lord (J. Russell) had almost made up his mind to
reject it. He would now point out to the House the
present state of the constituency, arid the probable effect
of the new measure. It appeared that the total numbe'r
of electors in Ireland in 1837 was 80,286; in 1849 they
were reduced to 33,842; and by the proposed Bill they
would be increased to 334,771.—(Hear.) He should have
been quite ready to assent to such au increase in the
number of voters its should have raised the number
to what it was after the passing of the Reform Bill,
but he had strong objections to so sweeping a
measure as the present. The effect of the measure
would be to make the constituency of Ireland propor-
tionately much more numerous than the constituency of
either England or Scotland. By agreeing to a measure
like this they would be beginning a new career of re-
volution and change, and would be endangering the
principle of a property qualification. He principally ob-
jected to the 8/. qualification—to the joint-rating clause
—to compulsory registration ; and he thought it very
doubtful policy to connect the franchise with a rating
for the poor. In fact, the 'Bill would create a cottier
constituency in lrelaud, and would lead to what all who
knew the state of Ireland condemned—a sabdivision of
the land. Not the landlords merely, but the priestilp
would acquire a powerful influence by the Bill. lie
believed the Noble Lord at the bead of the Government
once gave it as his opinion that if the Irish Protestant
Church was destroyed the Established Church in Eng-
land would be in peril. Was the Noble Lord not afraid
that there would be danger to the Church in the crea-
tion of a constituency likely in a great degree to be con-
trolled by the priests ? He wished to impress upon
English members that the present was not more an Irish
question than it was au English onO. Considering
the stride made by democracy in neighbouring countries,
it would have been prudent had Ministers paused before
introducing a measure which must greatly increase de-
mocratic power in this count-y. As far as the experi-
ment had been tried, democracy did not appear to be
favourable either to the liberty, prosperity, or happiness
of mankind.—(Boar.) His belief wasthaatgdraevmaotcedraacyll
was but the grossest formof despotism, and g
the evils that afflicted society. There was no popular
feeling
reactionin
pao nw ders,
it 0
that which carried the Reform Bill. On the contrary,
hfaavdoulrongof
srienfooormtaakteopresent at all resembling
place, and still existed.
They had been told that if Ministers were defeated they
would resign, and that if they resigned nobody knew
who would succeed them. They bad even been menaced
with the advent of an Administration formed of the
Hon. Member for Manchester and the lion. Member for
the West Riding, and others of that party. Ho believed
such a rumour groundless, and felt certain that such an
Administration would not hold together for six hours.
If there was any danger of auch an Administration, it
would arise not from rejecting, but from passing the
present Bill. Entertaining these views, he could nut do
otherwise than move that the Bill be read a third time
that day six months.
The question having been put,
Mr. E. B. ROCHE was surprised at the opposition
offered at the eleventh hour to what he must call a t trdy
measure of justice to Ireland. II was still more sur-
prised at the regions offered by the lion. Baronet, for
better reasons could not be given in favour of the mea-
sure than those which the lion. Baronet had used against
it. Ireland was, he might almost say, disfranchised at
the present moment. Ile wanted to know why lion.
Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, who said
they were the friends of the Irish people, now came f ,r-
-ward at the eleventh hour to run amuck thus, as it were,
against a proposition for the enlargement of the fran-
chise of that country ? Ile did not think the Hon.
Baronet was very discreet in proposing that motion, nor
in the grounds upon which he rested his opposition to
the Bill. The Hon. Baronet said that by that measure
they would enfranchise 300,000 persons, but he had
never stated that the population of Ireland eenounted to
B,oBo,ooo.—(Hear, he tr.) The lion. Baronet had said
that if they gave that franchise the people would turn
round and upset the Irish Church. Now, he did not
think the lion. Baronet could have used a more unhappy
argument in support of his motion. It might be a good
madegtilviee
argument against the franchise, but it was a very
one thing more than another, which
bad one in favour of the Church. If there was
Establish-
ment unsavoury in the nostrils of the Irish people, it
was the fact that the Church was always made the cita-
del from which rushed out the bands who attacked every
liberty of and concession to the Irish people
was ever made the plea against any proposition for im-
proving the social, moral, or ;political condition of the
people. It was said that that Bill would
tqe priests in Ireland. lie would suggest a remedy for
that. Let the ion. Baronet join them in..procuring the
ballot. But ho contended AI it that the ItQUltin Catlio-

MA Y 11, 1850:

lic clergy of Ireland had always been the upholders of
order and the rights of property; but they would not be ,
satisfied unless the people were fairly repre-
sented in that House. He was of that party who
were disposed to recommend the people to turn their at-
tention to the physical improvement of the country
rather than political agitation; but Hon. Gentlemen
opposite were throwing bitter ingredients into the poli-
tical castldron, and by their conduct on the present occa-
sion were the real agitators of Ireland. For his own
part he felt bound to tender his heartfelt thanks to the
Government for having introduced that measure, and he
trusted it would be carried, contrary to that opposition,
with such a majority as would bear it successfully
through all its subsequent stages.—(Hear, hear, from the
Government side.)
Lord BERNARD contended that the present period
for bringing forward such a measure was most infelicitous,
and that no wish had ever existed on behalf of the Irish
people to have it pass into a law. That was clear from
the fact that no petition was presented in its favour, and
that the greatest indifference was manifested on the
matter. He believed that the measure was a direct vio-
lation of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, previous to the
framing of which it was arranged that the franchise
should be 101. in Ireland. The Noble Lord then ad-
verted to the Committee which sat in 1825, and quoted
the evidence of the late Mr. R. A. Blake, to show that
even at that period the understanding was that the fran-
chise should be 10/. If they once adopted the principle
of making the borough and county franchise the same,
where on earth were they to stop? He believed they would
be led to the adoption of the Chartist principle of dividing
the country into electoral districts. The influence
of the town voters—many of them altogether uncon-
nected with agriculture—upon the purely agricultural
constituency, would be of the most prejudicial nature.
From the greater activity and means of organization
possessed by .residents in towns, they would, in fact,
swamp the agricultural voters. Another objection to
the Bill was that it gave no security for the bona fide
character of the franchise. It would be in the power of
a dishonest or partizan board of guardians to make a
rate at such a time as would enable persons to vote with-
out paying their rates. Above all, the unfair and un-
equal valuations in different counties ought to be put
an end to before this Bill was passed; that was a mea•
sure which the Government should introduce. It should
not be left to boards of guardians. For instance, if he
took his own position as the chairman of a board of
guardians, his attention to the duties of the office neces-
sarily gave him considerable influence, and though he
was anxious to act in all matters so as to escape sus-
picion, yet it would be impossible that he should en-
tirely escape the imputation of having an eye to his
political interests in anything he might do as to the
valuation.—(Hear, hear.) He looked on the measure
with great apprehension, because, as had been ably
and forcibly shown by Lord Clarendon, Ireland
at this time wanted peace and opportunity to
apply itself to social and industrial improvements.
Political excitement and the strife of opposing parties
were to be dreaded as the worst evils that could befall
the country. What would be the effect of the mea-
sure in this country? He was afraid that it would be
said the Ministry had adopted the policy of the Colonial
Minister with respect to the Cape of Good Hope.
England was quiet and peaceable, and the Government
refused any extension of the suffrage to it. Ireland was
turbulent, and succeeded in getting an extended suf-
frage. On another ground the measure was most ob-
jectionable. Now that the two countries were so closely
brought together there ought net to be any difference
in the laws by which they were governed. He earnestly
asked the House to pause before it passed a Bill so
fraught with danger, and took a step from which they
could not draw back—which would throw them into the
arms of a party with whom all attempts at conciliation
had been in vain. Instead of such a measure, the Go-
vernment should endeavour to introduce measures that
would improve the social condition of Ireland—that
would feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Such
measures, while beneficial to Ireland, would at the same
time increase the glory and the prosperity of the united
empire.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. YOUNG did not consider it fair to institute a
comparison between the 40s. and 8/. freeholder. With
respect to the Bill itself, though there were portions of
it which he did not approve, yet he did not think that
his objections to those details would warrant him in
concurring in the very doubtful and desperate course of
rejecting the measure altogether, seeing that it was one
which was so much called for by the circumstances, and
was so suite] to the spirit and genius of Ireland. The
portions of the Bill to which he objected were, the joint
occupancy clauses and the adoption of the poor-law
valuation. That valuation was unequal throughout
Ireland, and was much complained of in many districts;
whereas if they adopted the town-land valuation, it
would be found uniform and fixed? It would get rid of

tenant at will rated at Si. would vote in presence of his
landlord. This, no doubt, would be a great change, a
change that would give an undue preponderance to the
landlord ieterest, unless there were independent house-
holders of towns not returning Members of Parliament,
and whose votes might serve as a counterpoise to those
of the subservient cultivators of the soil.--(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Napier) had
oscillated between 121. and 15/. as a qualification—that
was as to the minimum qualification—one sufficiently
high and yet low enough for his purposes.—(Hear, hear.)
This great change was high enough to exclude the
household constituency from counties, and at the same
time to let in a large mass of quiescent vassalage under
the operation of the clause. And what would be the
consequence? The industrious occupier of land, rated
at the pseudo-Conservative minimum, unprotected by a
lease—whose tenure was but his vote, whose suffrage was
unprotected by the ballot—(Hear)—he would be in-
vested, according to the Lion. Member's clause, with the
franchise, for the proper exercise of which he would be
deficient of some of the most important qualifications.
On the other hand, the householder in towns containing
10 000 or 12,000 inhabitants—he spoke of Thurles and
Carrick-on-Suir, which did not return Members—the
respectable householder of large country towns was to be
rated at 81., which would be 181. to a tenant of the same
class in this country. Well conditioned men in trade—
industrious, intelligent men—and with supplemental
capital, in their integrity, would be stripped by this
scheme of their franchise, of a hick franchise they
would have made a fearless, an independent, and an
honourable use.—(Hear.) This was both impolitic and
unjust—impolitic because unjust; and its haspolicy and
injustice were worse, because, in this country, the 40s.
freeholds were preserved, and the great mass of English
Members returned fur boroughs at a 101. qualification;
whereas the majority of the Members for Ireland, if
the Hon. Member achieved his object, would only be
returned on a qualification of double that amount. This
was not consistent with the true spirit of the Legislative
Union. They would no doubt tell him—or at least they
would think it—that the case of Ireland was peculiar,
and that they were afraid of agitation. This would be
a mistake, and mistaken f tars had ever been the bane
of Ireland. Through mistaken fears the penal laws had
been enacted and their repeal delay ed. Through mis-
taken fears, fatal procrastination of justice and devia-
tion from the path they ought to have pursued in legis-
lating for Ireland, occurred; and there was nothing
so much that Englishmen ought to be ashamed of
as this continuation of mistaken fears. They
would ask, would he make such assertions after
what had been witnessed in Ireland—landlord and
tenant sundered, and continued paroxysms of dis-
turbed feeling. Were those things not to be feared? He
replied no, look at the causes of events—look at the
events passing before them, and then mark the conse-
quences. The agitation to which he had referred might
be ascribed to two causes, the operation of both of which
had now ceased. That cessation war to be ascribed to a
great man—a man whom, considering his life and intel-
lectual character, they would be long ere they looked
upon his like cgain. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
adverted to the franchise of 1797,when the 40s. franchise
was granted to Catholic freeholders. Why, did he not
know that the franchise was exercised for forty years in
subserviency to the Protestant proprietor?—(Hear.)
How was that subserviency broken? He had not the
slightest doubt that the great electoral war which took
place in Ireland would not have taken place but for the
miraculous organization which Mr. O'Connell was enabled
to effect through the wrongs done to Ireland, in this
country. But for the Catholic question there
would have been no association of Catholic
hierarchy, Catholic clergy, Catholic aristocracy,
Catholic gentry, Catholic barristers, Catholic gra-
ziers, and all classes and conditions of Catholics,
joined in that amazing confederacy, before which
ascendancy fell down. And, on the other hand, this con-
federacy would never have been formed, unless had ap-
peared that celebrated man to whom had justly been
ascribed the victory. Might not a second O'Connell
arise? Nature might supply the faculties, but fortune
would not give the same opportunities. The same ver-
satility, the same boundless resources, the same inde-
fatigable perseverance, the same indomitable energy
aneeloquence, which converted a populace into a people,
might be found in another man; but then they could not
furnish him with another penal code.—(Hear, hoar.) If
Catholic emancipation bad been carried out at the time
of the union—if the great design of Pitt bad not been
left unfinished—you would never have seen the Clare
election and the great moral insurrection against the pro-
prietors of the soil. Had these matters not occurred,
Mr. O'Connell might have been a great barrister, a great
senator, or a great chief justice, but he would not have
wielded the fierce democracy, because he would not
have had a fierce democracy to wield. In any of those
capacities, however, he would have been led to promote
the interests of his country. Those were the reasons
which had produced the conviction in his mind that there
was nothing in the Bill which ought to be objected to;
and he would call on them to see whether the views he
took of the past were not confirmed by the present con-
dition of Ireland? They would probably tell him that
Ireland was now enjoying profound tranquillity, that no
political agitation existed, and popular passions had sub-
sided. Great meetings, it was true, were now held, at
which political objects were not discussed. Catholic
gentry and Catholic clergy were now engaged on a ques-
tion far which they were indebted to the Right tlon.
Baronet the Member for Oxford. Even the most indus-
trious ecclesiastical advocates of the repeal of the union
now believed that such object was bright, but impracti-
cable. Never was the lauded interest—he would say the
Protestant interest—more secure. To the Protestant
interest, in the highest sense of the word, the Catholics
were not opposed. Protestant ascendaecy—another mane
for Catholic disqualification—was, however, extinct,
and in its place the existence of a greal moral, intel-
lectual, and territorial power, whose roots wets)
as deeply struck as its ramifications were extended—
had firmly established itself, and did not need the aid
of the Legislature to assist its progress, Never was
there a period more opportune than the present for con-
sidering a measure like the one before the House. Con-
cessions to Ireland had hitherto been the result of fears—
they were dictated by the remembrance of that which
Englishmen ought not to rencdollweceltl and wiselybutwithshagmoev.eNrntel
when Ireland was at rest, a
—when she was in repose, and not pursued by a spirit
of minacious molestation—this large and comprehensive
measure, to redeem the pledge given by the Ministers
of the Crown when they took office, was brought for-
ward as the spontaneous emanation of British fairness
and as dictated by the noblest sentiments of Englishmen.
It was said that England's difficulty was Ireland's oppor-
tunity, but this would now cease to be a proverb, for he
trusted the House would divest that dismal aphorism of
the truth which it had borne for centuries, implant in its
stead a feeling in the minds of Irishmen that justice to
Ireland was the best security to England, and make the
incubus which had hitherto operated so disastrously give
place to the lofty sentiment that the rights of the Irish
people were equal to those of the English people, as their
interests were beyond all doubt identical.—(Cheers.)
Viscount JOCELYN acknowledged the ability of the
Right Hou. Gentleman's speech; but it appeared to him
to refer to matters long passed away, and to have no real
connexion with the subject before the House. Holding
the opinions he did, he must object to the Bill, and vote
for the amendment. He had been willing to receive in
a fair and liberal spirit, from the Noble Lord, any well-
conceived measure for the extension of the Irish fran-
chise, for it was impossible to doubt that the state of the
franchise in Ireland required amendment; but though
he agreed entirely in the principle of the Bill, he could
not give it his support, because, in its present form, it
would operate fatally to the interests of Ireland. It wis
impossible to apply one system of legislation to Ireland
and another to England without doing mischief. He ob-
jected to the Bill on several grounds; first, that the basis
selected for the franchise would affor no criterion of the
class of persons who would enjoy the franchise. In one
poor-law union while the rate was 81., it would in
another union be 101. Then the working of the Bill
would be most objectionable, inasmuch as the registrars
would be the poor-law guardians—a circumstance that
would be sure to throw The apple of discord in every
place. Another objection was the sum settled by the
Noble Lord-81. He had seen a calculation which
clearly proved that the 8/. and 121. franchise would
swamp the intelligence and respectability of the popula-
tion. Another objectionable point was the joint tenancy
point—one of the many evils of Ireland, as re-introduc-
ing the mischief of the 40s. freeholders. The Noble
Lord concluded by referring to the repeal of the union,
with energy declaring, when the majority of the Irish
Members voted for the repeal of the union, then he con-
sidered that the first step towards the dismemberment 4 f
the British empire would be st.aiued.
Viscount CASTLEREAGH had come to a differept
conclusion to his noble relative on the subject of the
present Bill. As the Bill had gone so far through the
House, he thought it ought to be allowed to take its
course. Had he, however, been asked what sum he
would have voted for, he would have said 12/. for towns,
and 61. fur counties. He would not, however, disturb
the Bill now, as he could not reconcile himself to be-
come a party to further delay. The Noble Lord here
read some figures, which, he said, if adopted, would
leave the constituency about 215,000—the same
numbers as when the 40a. freeholders existed.
He thought that the great experiment whieti
was about to be tried would open the doors to a
new Reform Bill. The Honourable Member for Cork,
who appeared to be in the confidence of the Govern-
ment, said that the Noble Lord intended to briug
forward a new Reform Bill for England. He wished
that such a measure had been brought forward at the
same time as the present Bill. He thought it was an
unfortunate step to take to try the experiment in Ireland
before they tried it in England. He trusted that this
Bill would be properly considered in another place.—
(Hear, hear.) But he felt bound not to impede the pro-
gress of the measure in its present stage. If ever there
was an inopportune time for trying this experiment in
Ireland. the present was that tine.—(lronical cheers
and laughter.) If the Bill were framed with the amend-
ments which he had proposed, he thought that it would
then indeed give to the people of Ireland a full and fair
representation.—(Hear, heir.)
Colonel RA WDON would accept the vote of the Noble
Lord, but not his arguments.—(A laugh.) He could not
admit it to be a constitutional argument to say in this
House that we could not decide upon a Bill of this kind
without reference to another branch of the Legislature.
The moment was now arrived for legislatir's in a liberal
spirit for the people of Ireland, and he thanked the Noble
Lord at the he sci of the Government for fulfilling that
pledge which he had given upon this subject. This Bill
was not force 1 upon the Hone by agitation, but is pro
ceeded from is pure sense of justice, and what was felt to
be due to the people of Ireland; and he was sate it
would he received in a corresponding spirit by those
whom it was intended to serve.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GR ALIA al—Having had some share in framing
the Irish Reform Act, and having on various occasloes
expressed a strong opinion that that great settlement
ought not lightly to be disturbed by any new enactment,
the House perhaps would not think it unnatural if he

many of the difficulties which would be found to attend
the operations of the poor-law valuation. He also ob•
jetted to the 81. franchise as being too low. A respect-
able class of voters ought, he thought, to be looked to,
more than a merely numerous one, and he considered
that a 12/. franchise would effect that object, and
folly carry out the purposes of the Reform Bill. These
were his opinions with respect to the Bill; but, seeing
what the general opinion of the House appeared to
be, be would not, on account of those objections,
refuse to vote for a measure which, on the whole, he
considered well suited to the circumstances of Ireland.
Looking at the probable effect of this measure upon the
character and energy of the people of Ireland in the ful-
ness of time, he could not see in the measure anythink
but a boon. It was not an attempt to force a franchise
on the Irish people unsuited to their habits; and he
knew it to be in accordance with the general
wish. On the best consideration, therefore, that he
could give the question, he thought he would act most
in the interest of all classes in Ireland by supporting
the Bill.
Mr. W. FAGAN met the objection raised by the
Hon. Baronet on the ground that the poor-law valuation
by the statement that the valuation was still too high,
being one-fourth less than the average rental of the
country. It would have the effect of protecting the te-
nantry against the landlords•, and unless some measure
of the kind was adopted the franchise in Ireland would
terminate. He denied the statement of the Honourable
Baronet, that the people of Ireland were indifferent to
the Bill; they were only disgusted at the length of
time it had lain dormant. He also defended the Catho-
lic clergy of Ireland from the stigma cast upon them
by the Noble Lord. The influence of the Catholic
priesthood was only powerful so long as they entertained
the same political views as the people. He (Mr.
Fagan) would not admit that the Irish Reform Act
was a final measure; it was far more meagre than even
the English or Scotch, and it was a stigma upon the
memory of Lord Grey, that be did not enlarge the mea-
sure of reform he had granted to Ireland. The mea-
sure, in his view, would have the effect of checking the
consolidation of farms in Ireland. The franchise given
to Ireland by this Bill was a 20/. at will franchise, and
would not give more than 200,000 county voters to
Ireland. In his opinion the Bill did not go far enough.
Mr. NAPIER wished, he said, to state the reasons
that induced him to vote for the amendment of the Hon.
Baronet. He quite agreed with the Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last, that the people of Ireland were entitled
to equal rights with the people of this country;
but this was not a measure that was in harmony with
the constitution of England. It was a violation of
the principle of the Reform Bill of England and
of Ireland, and it was on that ground he opposed it.
He placed this case on the second clause—the clause
which affected joint occupiers.—(Hear, hear.) In the
case of towns there had been a defect in the Irish Act,
and it had been justly provided for by the present mea-
sure. In, the counties, however, by this Bill there was it
change made in the whole principle of repreientation
and it was, moreover, not in harmony with the English
constitution. In that clause they had struck out the
words " tenants or owners." By it they might have
three men voting out of the same piece of land where
only one man had a real interest in the property.—(Hear,
hear.) He did not believe that this measure would do
anything but promote the purposea of party. When
the 40s. freehold was formed in Ireland, the landlords
raised up a power which was turned against themselves.
Then came the influence of priesthood, it was admitted,
and now, by this Bill, they were about to give power to
those who could move the masses, though, when the
Right Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) introduced
a franchise Bill, he placed the franchise so high that
none could possess it but those who were superior to im-
proper influences. If the object of this Bill had been
this—that there should be a substantial class of persons
farming the land, he would have supported it; but this
Bill would have no such purpose. He said, let them
attend to agricultural improvements first, and when
that was done, let them give whatever power they
could that should attach to property. As to the Esta-
blished Church in Ireland, it was not, and would not, be
affected by such a Bill as this. He had no fear for that
Church as long as it did its duty, and its clergy entitled
themselves to the respect and veneration of their coun-
trymen, as they were at this moment.—(Elear, hear.)
As to this Bill, he considered that by passing it they
were throwing the country into the mess which it bad
got out of by a recent visitation. He had looked lateey
co the Franchise Bill of Lord Stanley, and he could not
but admire it for the constitutional spirit to be found iu
tt; and that Bill, it was to be observed, properly gave an
appeal from the assistant barristers, as being persons
who held office under the will and pleasure of the Lord-
Lieutenant. This he said without any disparagement to
the assistant barristers, for whom he entertained high
respect. But now he said to the Government, that if
they wished to make a change in the representation,
Ireland was not the place to begin with, and, if it were,
this was not the time to begin with. In many parts of
Ireland the people did not care a farthing for the fran-
chise. It was employment they wanted. They asked
for bread, and not for a stone of this kind. If the second
clause wore rejected, and the qualification were some-
what raise I, he woul l not have felt it to be his duty to
oppose the third reading. He said that, if the qualifi-
cation were based upon a rating between 12/. and 15/.,
and the second clause struck out, he would not oppose
the measure. This was not an Irish but an Imperial
measure. There ought, he said, in conclusion, to be a
uniform principle for regulating the whole representation
of the people.
Mr. SHELL remarked that the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had based the whole of his argument, and he
thought, of his objection, to this measure on one sen•
tence ; for he had said that by this measure they would
give power t ) those who moved the masses. He thought
that there was a great misapprehension that that which
wns the just, the natural, and the legitimate influence of
property would be injuriously affected by this Bill. Now,
it hid been well observed by the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Cavan, that it would have the effect of ex-
tending the Chandos clause to Ireland, and that in a
form much more comprehensive than it was applied to
this country. The voters would be tenants at will, and
this, he said, was a point which deserved their serious
consideration—(Hear). The Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite, whose opinions he always heard with respect,
even when he differed from him, had remarked that the

rtgrit
found it difficult to give a silent vote upon this impooleic
measure.—(llear, hear.) He wuu!d then,
wible
limits
perr.,;sion, compress into the narro-i-est poss
,_e. to
the observations which he was anxious to
aflnosew.eri2tionbothr e
focr, wev
utioniiisvewr which ht. f.•)1
ufbeililne,nrnvhf‘lr_e°a°3.odutiblsde:
assure him, with the utmost sincerity, that he s °",.9 oe.
claim all party subjects and party feeling tiPcnst.flaniell
casion. He had looked with great attention F!".. duty
anxiety at the course which it would be Os
in reference to the present Bill to Pursueourable
thought it imperative upon him, when the Flonni,,liou
Member for the Queen's county moved the °fibs;
of the second clause, to vote for the reibececwiliojern;inoutroirts.sbiles
icnlaaunsesl.v—er(llteoart,heheaarr.g)unaHenetshaulendobtyont
Member for the University of Dublin agaglB..'d de.
clause. He thought it unsound in principle, 5,140 a,)
cidedly objectionable in every point of view. kid bo
He believed that it was a clause which wnut
turned to vicious uses, and would creates sr %ear.)
splitting votes and making faggot voters.—(fiel,r'sciteout
With those impressions, he had voted against it., gassed
hesitation, and he should b 3 glad, before this But P„, of
the House, of again being afforded the opporttletioloa
recording his vote against it. Then, again, be wagoo I°W
t
to express his opinion that the 81. valuation was tosb
a valuation.— hear, hear.) He should have beeeo.
better satisfied if the Bill had been f arced with s
only
what higher rating. He felt, however, th..t he /70-10•
to choose between a proposition of 151. and so 81oted 10
tion. When these two alternatives were prese,.
his choice, he did not hesitate to support the 81
~ne 01
tion. He, therefere, viewed this question s 8 bit
mixed considerations of great difficulty. Bat it 70.
duty to look at the condition of the county ;me
tuencies in Ireland at the present time. He sawed be
a great nation, consisting of 8,000,000 peoateefembef
found—what, indeed, was admitted by the HOD. Otstitir
for the University of Dublin—that the county ccunoest
ency of that great nation, with a form of goo', body
based upon representation, consisted of an electors of
of about 50,000.—(Hear, hear.) That be thougToa.
an anomalous state of things which was utterly Too
sistent with our constitutional principles.—(Beer' s,ertl
He had from time to time admitted that this Wei a• fir
which demanded an urgent remedy, and that it eeera
dispensable to adopt some measure for the enlarg_it the
of the county franchise.—(Hear, hear.) Lookiniestorsl
fact of the rapid diminution of the number of 11,at the
voters, it appeared to him to be quite clear teas
the
nature of the franchise being based upon tenure, e/ to be
cause of this diminution; and that any reniedY „ea
effectual must be a substitution fur a constitueneY icreese
on tenure of one based upon occupation in ref which
to voting.—(Hear, hear.) All the measures to 90,
he was a party with the Right Hon. Baronet theAidiest
ber for Tamworth, in respec t to valuation, heat"; shea
reference to this subject. He was anxious thajos
valuation in Ireland should be uniformly •eg,
on the sound principle of occupancy and Tilt
Pro'
He found in the Bill before the House all thiffieet
visions for which ho had been contending.--( ad
hear," from Lord John Russell.) First, the c"u upon
franchise was to be an occupation franchise, hsese'be of
rating; next, an annual registration, which was. t 0 ye or
a self-acting character, and attended with no exPt'effea
difficulty. Again, there was a precaution to be ousnieal
to which ho attached the utmost importance, 06.010,
not only occupation for twelve months before regio/
tion, but there must be actual payment of all poorado
due six months within the date of registration. lII.t wee
to calculate the value of such a provision as this. d gt
necessary to consider the circumstances of Irelaersta
this moment. As he understood the Bill, all Ponr-orei•
must be paid, and these must include not oelYt,b,,e„,-eoer
nary poor-rate necessary for the maintenance ea the wee
for the time being, but also the rate in aid, whi,c.t for
recently called into operation, and which was to is'telet
three years to come.—(Cries of "No, no.") Willaglt
might be the duration of this rate—even supPcs'to be
was only to last for one year—the rate in aid was re if)
included. And, more than that, there was a inessliaol
progress which he believed had passed this Holise'gteo
which would fix on the poor-rate the re-paymentctibeell
Exchequer of this country all the advances that '4,9,latable
made to Ireland, which would form a very consi""coto'
permanent addition to the poor-rate. Dad,
parisons have been made with the franchise in Ogfrer
Be it remembered that would have been the 40% did
hold.—(Hear, hear.) But the 40s. freehold Wh'etiatie.
exist in Ireland was open to insuperable objec;sfee
This franchise no longer existed and if they enni,,ra,
the franchise under this Bill with that in Scotle's se
ii
could scarcely be thougt that the 81. franchise eis
Vita
extravagant proposition. Quite the contrail. tor
leaseholder in Scotland was entitled to vote under 4
was termed the feu tenure. In Ireland, however, 01
valuation, including the payment of the poor-rstiek
that was a valuation which was gradually inere',„ the
was a much more limited franchise. What vier;
other difficulties which this Bill removed? It 'vs' thlo
possible that they could forget those angry debates, to
took place here in respect to the interpretation '3'ooo
franchise described as the beneficial interest. linreste
opposite opinions were expressed upon this point., sees
was no uniformity of decision in respect to it, an d le
the concurrence of the bench could not be obtainnethete
respect to the construction that was to be put uP°11;000
words. If they turned to the decision of the Cetellijtalit
of this House upon the subject, they would 611" Age
the Noble Li.rd the Member for Bath, weal tlle,
chairman of one of those Committees, had report; ace
opinion of the Committee over which he `etpresideu 0
this was to the effect that no time ought to be 00
legislating uponera i
this)e x
. ist e subject,d— t andh at
uinntilrseumeoevinegouakeielf
which generally e•
removed in respeci to what Was the meaning of id es
final interest," tae county franchise in Ireland weiiiii
tiesf;
.always placed in a most une,rtain condition.--(;
hear.) Wish the present Bill all such difficulty s-are'
cease.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Russell.) r set
spect to registration, all the evils that attended tbit/d es
of the subject were removed by this enactment; 80„ '
tee
the whole, he was bound to say, when balaneioboelfi
considerations, that the good he thought this Bill wto
effect was such as would not permit him to hesitate es'
giving it his support. It was said that it greell es(
larged the constituent body. He must say di der'
object to it on that ground.—(Hear, 'hear.) tioreitle
ing the increase of democratic elements in our 0.,090
tions, he saw the greatest danger in erecting an line
superstructure upon a narrow electoral basis. 1-`,.,00
sure that such a superstructure could not stand l!'t;et
narrow basis.—(Hear.) He, for one, could not ell beet
extend that basis.—(Hear.) Some allusions bsubeSlG
made to what we had witnessed elsewhere. V",i before
not disregard the examples that are patent, 50",,,,0br,,
our eyes. If be were to mention what in his naftP,
ju-tgment was the immediate cause of the fall of de 0+
Philippe, he should say it was, that he maintai°9oll
attempted to maintain, the aemblance of repreeeliorss
government with a constituent body, which, °tea
with the great bulk of the people, was ,dantdies:
narrow, and utterly inconsistent with a free toroth 0
His government f-11 without a struggle. His pewee bee
buried in its ruins, and the immediate consequeli4oll,
been, that for the last two, years the nation over " etie
he ruled has been plunged in anarchy, confusi°l:l'ooe
bloodshed, and property as well as life has becomei floc
insecure. The result has been, instead of =Averts/fie
frage, a general desire has been manifested for er„,gej
restriction, as compared with universal 00.1;:100":
namely, household suffrage in connexion wit; er,
taxation. He was sure that that was the safe hes",o the
which the franchise might rest. He bad come •or
conclusion that it was his,lduty to support tbool Sol
reading of this Bill, and be gibe afforded-'7,00
Would rejoice at an
oOrtunity ing
voting against the second clause, and of sending °POO
rE Huo_u s
se
iirn,
Ia sh peeope
hope
fthc
et
Ha
os toast:L..B
as
9P.18
Mr. Bill to
tDhelSoltthAe
not as yet presumed to give an opinion upon 016 00
sure—will not think it intrusive if for a few triOtreel
I express my opinion. I do so, not only with„Lold
hesitation from a consciousness of the di". -101'
of the subject itself, but from having
.i.ooof
low the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the xe 000/
e
Baronet
for r
ar
os i
nt sei b
pnt
haaa calledpa
he t
eeeect
rh
the
e_
disapproveswattltiiecenhat
character.—(Hear
attention of
eotoaoffr
t. me
)thheee
HouseTomhn oee
s Bo f
got
lit
bb.
ace'
perplexingepi
uae
c
ce
t
1'
regulations of the Bill in favour of which he is g°7 n
vote.—(Hear, hear, and laughter).He recalls to gbd.ol
recollection, with somewhat of Parliamentary Priuk:Bll
he recorded his vote against the second clause of ti the
The Right Hon. Gentleman actually disapproves ""tielC,
clause which nas fixed the suffrage at an Si. ra tee,
but, I believe that he voted in favour of it in Coino;,. Pit
[dere Sir J. Graham made an observation to iirtiol:/
raeli which was not heard in the gallery.] I fin " 0
was correct, and that the Right Hon. GeDtleOtch
recorded his vote in favour of this rating O ,aibie
disapproved.—(Hear, hear.) What opportunity d reL
lungs after to express his opinion by his see° fee,'
against the second clause I coafess it is difficult feirroo%
ascertain, considering that the Bill is now only J
for a third reading.—(Hear, and laughter.), it Ihardly believe that any very successful
offer itself now to any Honourable Gen 0 r„,
in this House to express his opinion Itiefee",
manlier sought for by the Right Honourable Gen (01'0
Nor has the Right Hon. Gentleman, although bill, efji
proves of the most important clauses of this e; 10,0
under these circumstances vindicated the 'o' of
going to give by a frank avowal that he apprelli, crei
principle of the measure.—(Hear, hear.) On tdolit •
irary, the Right Hun. Gentleman has candidl_titifeelit
that he is going to give that vote upon raixeuto as '0
and with mixed considerations; yet it would seem, Sit.,
as I can draw an inf rence from the speech of g0f fa roe
Hon. Gentleman, that what he most approves ,0i5e0:1
Bill is, that the suffrage is in future to be ale; aelee,".
Ireland without any reference to tenure.-oLeil;eftenfif
I understood the Hun. Baronet, between wh.aeeff,.l'id
self there is much political sympathy, in ,11,-.7 ;a ;la
part of the debate, to tell us that a fletnellio
land, unconnect d with tenure, was, with „,:e..-of
great political desideratum. A franchise °ale. it;
with tenure, he told us, was not suited to tbs,gdeace
the Irish people. Now, Sir, I have more coop 000'
the genius of the Irish people than the 112,11 -11,,aball,
Gentleman the Member for Cavan.—(Chee",4o,.."yrlf," g
iit*most remarkable in this discussion is, that ":„4,• its
tleinen should rise and tell us that there is,--0,4<,
upon which all parties and all sides are agreve • I fro"
is, the impossibility that in Ireland the foliiiree.
chise can be connected with proprietorial tef Reis
my mind that is announcing the degradation cia eL!ia,
—(Cheers)—that is, telling us that Ireland is pc,,1100
Vo 'ltch is inferior to the countries with which 051 idea/ifs
tally connected; and if you persist in that Peitiodal!,,s,
announce that you believe the position of Ir2tireff;°.'if
reclaimable.—(Hear.) Sir, it is because I
tritio,---P
approve of that principle as a principle 19f, P„s orteljse'
because I entirely distelieve the prineiP'ei;Lioa 01 .00,
nating from the real state and social cono, leeelaPtea
land, that I cannot accept it as the basis°' 101 l
tQ
What do you mean by saying ow; t4-frttoeili
land cannot be exercised with tenure? °

17aretcatf_11,‘"be to and and all the qtialiflrr.tions which 3•011
net to Li,ty establishNl end cherished in leelan I are
Sir, / ,ue re:tognised th et country?—(Hear, hear.)
not
fltiould say that if it is laid down to us that Ireland
ttika.leeseshita'state t) exf•rcise or enjoy a political franchise
is disconnected with tenure, you bring before
whi.!eideration of statesmen a country the position of
engatod mends immediate attention, and they ought at
meansaPPlY their minds to the application of some
state toof re.MOVe the causes which have produced such
things,—(
before a, Loud cheers.) If that were placed
Ern
„,
oes I should say it is not my duty in the
ene,.Pl!l eto create a fictitious and artificial
4nd terriblera uet endeavour to put an end to that sad
condition of thinv, which has rendered it
obtain
for the people to accumulate property and
taieAlLeequalification which is enjoyed in Great Bri-
tt; ers)—and that the first daty of a Minister is
serett't a law which should develope the industry of such
which ri---(Cheers)—which, if there were laws existing
4,14 their opinion tended to prevent the develop-
tio4
_?1 the industry of that country and the accutnula-
the the
in that country, as I believe, f,r example,
tho P•r!ent state of the poor-law does,—l say that it
merge
to be the business of a Government to direct their
thatutito such subject, to reform and to remodel it; and
the enateY should take every necessary step to stimulate
; . .
eolidietTPr.se, spirit, and energy of such a people in such.
tic% wh._°, and allow them to put them:elves in a pose-
°the? it!ch, under ordinary circumstances, and in the
the ;it. ingdorns of her Majesty, have generally preceded
JoYraent of the suffrage.—(Chfers.) Now, Sir, I
,ie not heard from her Majesty's Ministers
.that this
th:irr °I the question has particularly impressed itself on
toettention.—(Hear.) We had the question of the
ees brought before the House the otner day. I did
Atieistasr from the Chief Secretary that her Majesty's
nicr'ra--although they opposed the measure then
liAceponsideration—l did not hear that her Majesty's
jeer'? rs intended to introduce any measure on the sub-
Andp„_ lc it is, Sir, upon all questions connected with
r:!eriat development of Ireland.—(Hear.) Now,
veraorn'uld have supposed that if her Go-
of hal
given their serious attention to the reform
for Poor-law—if they had brought forward measures
for itZ development of the industry of the country, such,
the fis,"ace, as measures likely to encourage and extend
(leerneriel--if, above all, they had brought forward a
eartivanlif which they do not seem inclined to bring for-
tiori tlley had attempted to settle in a statesmanlike
betwe"lnnerate manner the long-controverted relation
Sot in landlord and tenant—(Hear, hear),—l can-
Isitticn thinking that the result of such legis-
Ateland "°n'd be to qualify bona fide electors for
ou, tench more rapidly than this attempt at fac-
albel:Pnfiages.—(Lourl cheers). But, Sir, we may be
sal You defend the present state of the electo-
he "e°1"80 in Ireland?" Is it for rne, or those with
Pre:n(ll4l'e the honour to act, to defend it? The
treated state of the electoral franchise in Ireland was
kind ,by the Reform Act; and if we discard from our
fasteril the
glowing and fervent sentiments of the
is of the
Mint, what is the question before us? It
üblic acknowledgment that the Reform Act for
dols thrie ad failed.—(Cheers.) But why had it failed?
r
land ant' cne who really believes that the owner off
the fail Ireland is the sole or even the principle cause o
the
There is hardly one man, even in the
!flainte-s." "'lnge, would have the courage to rise up and
to jr I°l such a thesis.—(Cheers.) The electoral body
tedietaitieuatiliodrile why has it so fearfully diminished? The
°ant f an be traced to causes sufficiently patent to
maip °r an melancholy a result.—(Hear, hear.) The
jlaPar res are unprecedented political agitation and
,erdnititand.etleed famine. That the relation between land-
nant—relations which we call upon the Go-
which to come forward and legislate upon,. bu
bare tn°Y neglect to do—that these relations
;anY tendency to diminish the electoral body, I have
thet',llll or interest to dispute orb deny. But to proteand
0;4 'obody re relations between landlord and tenant are the
Principal cause of this diminution of the one_
gee. - a Position too futile to require any further
tor i"( Cheers•) The fact does remain—that an elec.-
a bud •
tlished. 3', never too considerable, is very much
armdim-
lee And here let me remind Hon. Gentlemen who
s° unneceasarily to create party discussions, that as
arrasour interests are concerned it is not the interest of
're gentleman on this side of the House, if the results
for guide us, to support the arrangements of the. e ger;
liderhanehise in Ireland. A majority, and no inc.ost
pie le Majority, of Irish Members always voteagai
port a -dsnrica and the principles which we generally sup
ie kallit4,Ways confess, and,. therefore,. in any rem arks
of
thetpirit
'or 4 011 the system which exists, we may have credit
of fairness and impartiality. Nor am I ono
this W
Who would attempt to justify any opposition to
akehtne,asttre on the mere abstract fact that it will
laid it, increase the constituency of Ireland. It t
to ao.at it will make the,constituency of Ireland amount
100,0°,11,°°0 or 350,000. Let the electors of Ireland be
l'esai,"' if their suffrages are the natural and genuined
"eel; But,
intelligence, and honesty.—(Loa.
.'asbese.' sitit, instead of 300,000, if the. reswueltreofthtehy7
1114'4 were a much more limited number
the but a Moiety of the sum which has been accepted
tp ettemillrobable result of this proceeding—
lk nbieet to your law if I found that the end was
obtai
h 1144 ned by a mere artificial effort to produce a
%ree:te,ilcs,Y.—(Loud cheers.) 'rho Right Honourable
Priaei ttbir James Graham), who disapproves_ of the
64118idPat clauses of this Bill. supports it from mixed
ip erations and mainly, of course, and very properly
41)1)018:ler? of the case, because he considers it of great,
r4t-atl-a"llee that there' should be a constituency of no
"lebe mount in Ireland. But I ask you. to consider well
4.4 YOU are approaching this difficult question—l
which °ll to consider whether you are taking a course
uelieYe ill lead to the result which I well
ns de . that all of us desire. Supposing that we all of
l4eteBtr4 a bona fide, a considerable, and loyal consti-
Y in /
re4a%u—a constituencyequal to the occasion,
14t4,4. able to select men cap
able
of representing their
kitae„'' and qualified to sit in this House—a con-
th„"eYs on the whole, well affected to the institutions
takera ,74intry_i ask you whether the course you are
4,earcs is one calculated to attain that result?-- (Hear,
e her tour Yoconstituency,which was anticipated_ underm
Ibatri `t()ral Act, has diminished from political, from
'thieh.4l. eaUgeS—it has diminished to an amount of
Ithiet 'lot ono single Member of the House, as an ab-
kerehfireurastance, will approve or vindicate.ve produced
But re-
this this—that the very causes which have
etta,;lroinution—that the very moral n
tblit that have occasioned this result, aread material
also causes
of R.'"ve disinclined the people to any hasty adoption
tiltf,,,q elector
hilet•ate al system which would be framed. for the
Purposes of a party, and not to satisfy
Sir,tbe
t e'h,4 and requirements of the national will. Now,
kioc: not inclined on the present occasion to
de°°Y reasons for showing this to be a party object.
114); hi: ()t say that the Government on this occasion
their
forward a measure mainly, or even if not
aeir Indirectly a plan to support theirpolicy and
the
l'itte,l4,rtY• It is quite unnecessary to diverge into d
to-3..`c'n (.4 any such- question.
.All that I wish to o
°l)` ss.`enund the House of the circumstances which in
ind sbow that even in the opinion of the Govern-
's.% 8 till& is a crude and ill-digested scheme—(Ch. (Cheers)
tco‘ehera, which does not aim to settle the question in
itlri,,,;llor generally satisfactory for any length of
-tiit'ds-but which emanates from the men who have
NO adopted uncertain conclusions—(Hear)—and
Bite at this moment, in the very heat of debate, have
thre; '''bore than one evidence that, at this very instant,
14.jr,litte contemplating still further changes.—(Cheers.)
qat;ataite the clause which the Right Hon. Baronettd
to trierted
and it is only because he has adverted
of thttailse that, at this late hour, I call the attention
Ice", -tloilse to it—but I will take the second clause,
trsy ,1‘ which he prided himself upon having voted.. In
most it is a very injudicious clause. I voted against
411 p :Iliticerel because I thought it an injudicious and
tar ecittkLe auseYl a clause which would not have been pre-
''th bh"3: men well acquainted with the circumstances.e
et,-"'cli they were dealing—an unstattlimanlikeclaus
to reee.era)--a clause which, in my opinion, ought not
tit), ire the sanction of Parliament.—(Hear.) I would
41te ttre""4 would say a clause which ought not tcoertae:
4404, le sanction and approval of the House o£
,ete fln,reause I am not one cf the school who would
oea.ill Bill of which I disapproved to throw the re..
stri,—\"it• Y of rejecting it upon another body.—(Loud
But if this is my opinion, and the opinion of
s'etti7,4,7°D. Gentlemen who have spoken on the present.ate
°itiChn
nanda during preceding discussions—what
hit_
tiitt‘-,: her Majesty's Government on this most
ia.,7 her
? Why, no less a person than the First
',..'ideir-41.°f the Crown, when the clause was first brought
Leit .u,lacussioalmost anticipated our objections
getil,"'nu threw it ss it were into the centre of the
tld l'atiuto the arena of our Parlirmentary discussion s 2
olrhe cared not to be responsible for it. Sir,
abler this clause, which is, perhaps the most objection-
'D.:4B4 of the Bill—a clause of which we particularly
l'atOo'saPit-,°_"--is a clause that now becomes of considerable
iti, "o—that occupies a great place in legislation..
,114(1t); to be sent with the approval of the Ministry
)444 walatinction of this House to another place to be
'4llO .th, we are throwing upon another place th
eoef,,,aaibility of rejecting legislation which we ourselves
tetitil-osr% and which is acknowledged by the highest
Zql'ersNY t° be most crude and ill-digested.—(Loud
hrlce ask, is that the manner to treat another
otts Is that thespirit in which we should sup-
mstitutions of country? It is not decorous, I
'4O tr'll a Minister, but it is still less decorous in those
tisterLeePprove of such a course, and who, havingre-
'NO. their vote against it. still vote for the third
*,;(1,,,;„6,,ef the Bill of which it forms so prominent a parti
Ibe'qfrehaera.) Take the clause in which the amount
G 'lncluse is define i The Hon. Gentleman (Sir
in
atititthaul) tells us that n voting for this Bill he votes
eg 804 •
ellect, With those opinions which he has always pro-
lloe .; at least of late years—(A laugh)—and in acco.rd-
lit°el.! P;tphitt,?_°aeapr_ojects of legislation which he has him-
nd supported Why, Sir, it is not long
pery 41tlern B only in the year 1844, that the Right Hon.
bsu—bi''orli*ibircis.elf brought forward a measure on this
elt of 1-BZ, And what was his. qualification in the
iahed It was a 301. franchise—(Cheers)—e.sta-
r;A: recollect right on the same basis of rating.
i',,eetle-mel:9 But. what -is the' answer of the Right Hon.
1,`,1,R file Ii and his friends, if we object to their support-
;tilt (4'1,4, qualification, when a short time art as the
their 'nett' matured counsels, of their deep reflection,
Z 4444
ienlapormorate rese.arch, of all the advantages which
ehia" tion imparted, they proposed a 301.
en e Qeutl Why the answer of the Right Honou.r-
stap,es °man will probably be that the hir-
Teriab of Ireland are changed—lreland is im-
tkie,t,s_,:yed--rortlirelatad is not so wealthy as she was.
hed? la-- Is Ireland always to be ins-
tttlleld bit°
our
this age of progress, which we have
'e to be ur ears every night and on every occasion, is
kace it, no Progress in Ireland? I have more confi-
tisk
...t,he future for Ireland than these great states-
e,!'llitlll;lll not give my sanction to a great constitu-
Itio_ttilat is to announce to the United Kingdom
174,1411 r always to be a pauper.—(Cheers.)
4)444 to these circumstances, accounting, as I will
43e0uilt n 0 by the mere unsatisfactory