The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-23 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT FOR THE HOLIDAYS.

Upon the motion that the House bhuuld at its rising
adjourn until Monday next,
Lord J. RUSSELL said he bad thought it might be
possible to adjourn for the Easter holichys on Monday
next, but he found the number of notices on the paper
would not allow him to do so, and he would therefore
give notice that on Tuesday next he should move the
adjournment of the House until the Bth of April.
Mr. F. FRENCH thought if the Noble Lord desired
to adjourn on Monday, that those who 1-al notices on
the paper—and he was one of them—would have no ob-
jection to a postponement.—(Hear.)
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES BILL.

On the question for going into Committee on this Bill,
Mr. DI VETT said he was anxious to tale that op-
portunity of making a few observations on this ti ensure,
as ho had been unable to take any part in the
discussion on the second reading. Too much of that
discussion bad been confined to the question of
theoretical c-natitutions arid tLe practical ct,naideration
if the Bill itself. Now it was of the deepest import
ance Oita the Bill should be passed this sesdion, and sent
nmi early as possible fur the adoption of the colonies.
Hilo principal objection to the Bill erode out of
an apprehension that it would give New South Vales
an advantage over Australia ; but he had Leen
asturtd by,,, members a the Government that his
fears in thil respect would turn out to be ill-fiunded,
and he. bad little doubt that if they now went manfully
to work, such a Bill would be produced as would prove
highly acceptable to the colonists. It was of the utmost
importance :hat the province of Victoria should be se-
parated from Australia; and it was equally to be desired
that representative constitutions should be granted to the
colonies, though not on the principled two chatubers, as
he was satisfied that a second chamber could not be pro-
duced that would prove satisfactory to the colonists. He
therefore approved of the Bill as it now stood, and if he
bad an assurance that the present minimum price of
land should be strictly maintained, it should hase his
best support.—(Hear, hear.)
The House then went into Committee.

Mr. HUME thought the House ought to give the
colonies one simple enactment, which should apply to
them all alike. He would submit to the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government, that in-
stead of adopting this Bill in its present shape,
it would be far more pre`erable to repeal al
the Acts referred to in the preamble of the Bill, and to
re-enact such party, and such parts only, as related to
the colonier.
Claws 1 was agreed to.

On the question being put that clause 2 stand part of
the Bill,
Mr. BOUVERIE wished to ask if there was any
objection to insert a clause to the effect that not more
than one-half of the members of the council should be
members holding office.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he was not awe' e
that the Bill was not drawn up to express that.
It it did not do so, he lad no objection to insert some
words to that effect.

Sir WM. MULESWORTII said that this was a proof
of how badly the Bill was drawn up, when the Noble
Lord could not tell what it meant on one particulor
point.
Mr. HUME wished to know if the Noble Lord still
persisted in his intention of having the council of South
Australia entirely of nominees. lie saw no reason why
they should treat that colony in a efferent manner to
the Cape of Good Hope, which had an elective council.

Mr. MOWATT acid he had no objection either to
having one or two chambers, provided the colonists
were satisfied; and he thought the only blemish in the
Bill—Lr which as a colonist he heartily thanked the
Government, because he considered it would form an
era in our legislation—was the clause which they were
now discussing. It proposed to give to the Crown the
power of nominating one-third of each of the chambers
to be created under the Bill, and the introduction of this
alien body he thought was objectionable.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Member for Mont-
rose proposed that there should be only one legislative
council, from which all persons nominated by Govern-
ment should be t xcluded, and he was certain), not pre-
pared t,) assent to that proposal.
Mr. MOWAT r said he was sorry to hear the answer
of the Noble Lorel, and he should feel it his duty to
move the omission of such part of clause 2, as lett to
her Majesty the nomination of one third part of
the number of the members of the legislative council.
They ought not to bow to the existing popular
opinion in New South Wales, but endeavour to give
the colonies such a constitution that may be calcula-
ted to last for all times. As for the nominee principle,
he was decidedly opposed to that, and so were the
colonists themselves. In the Cape of Good note
it was considered an odious principle, and
men who occupied nominee seats in the local
council would ',either be trusted nor respect()
while, had they been elected by the colonists, they would
have been useful members of that body. He really be-
lieved that the introduction of a body of elected French-
men would to less injurious to the healthy working of a
colonial legislative council than that a third t f it should
be composer' of nominees. The colonists were the best
judges of their own interests, and he would suggest
that the matter ,should be left to their decision.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving the omission of
all the words from the clause giving to the Crown the
power of nominating one-third of the members in the
council.

Mr. LABOUCHERE raid the Government in f..am-
irg this Bill had not contemplated the giving a new
constitution to Australia, but they had taken the
institutions of that colony as they found them, and had
endeavoured to mould them to the present times.—(Bear,
hear.) lie did not feel called on to argue the question
with the Hon. Member (Mr. Mow ito) whether or not the
legislature for that colony should be composed of
one chamber, without any principle of m
He thought, however, there were grape reasons why
that should not be the form of constitution for a British
colony. Ile (Mr. Labouchere) was satisfied from all the
inquiries he had been able to make on the subject, that
the sate course was to tike those institutions which had
been proved by the colonists themselves to be effective,
and to confirm those institutions, giving, hoil ever, to the
colonists fresh power to build on those institutions such
improvements as time and experience proved to be neces-
sary.
Mr.', VERNON SMITH wished that this discus-
sion should be carried on with temper and moderaticn.
The Right Hon. Gentleman on the Treasury bench as-
sumed that this was not a new constitution proposed,
but one time honoured and venerated by the
colonies, which it would be an infamy to in-
terfere with. But eas this the case ? The constitution
had existed for seven years, and the prejudices in favour
of it could not lo?: particularly strong. But what did the
Noble Lord who had introduced the Bill say? Ile said
tuat this Bill contemplated nothing new. flogging his
pardon, he did not seem to know his own Bill. Consti-
tutions were to be given to two colonies which had never
before had them. Was that nothing new? Federal institu-
tions too were to be introduced into our colonies. Was that
nothing new? Were not federal institutions most extra-
ordinary novelties? He (Mr. Smith) was very noxious
that the first point to be discussed by the Cononitte
should be that of a single or double chamber. Be
thought the question of nomination or election would
most properly follow that question. He should there-
fore suggest teat the present motion should be post-
poned until the question of a single or a double chamber
had been settled.

Mr. MOW /I TT was quite willing to do anything con-
sistent with the forms of the House.

Mr. E. DENIziON thought that if the House eeoided
against th• power of nomination, and excluded all official
members from a seat in the council, it would be practi-
cally deciding in favour cf txo chambers; as it would be
impossible in that case to carry on the business of go-
vernment without a second chamber.

Mr. AIOWA UT was willing to postpone his amend-
ment till after the main question was decided if his doing
so would not preclude him from bringing it on agaio.

Atter a lew words from Mr. AGLIONBY,
Sir J. PAKINGTON suid if the Honourable Gentle-
man threw away that opportunity he would not again
be able to raise the question.
Mr. ADDERLEY considered that nominees ought
not to form part of the chambers, if they wished to al-
low the colony to form its own constitution.
Mr. LABOUGHERE explained that what he said
was that a constitution working with two chambers
would be hotter than a constitution working with one
chamber; but this depended upon the circumstances
of tho colony, the state of its advancement, the
state of its society, and the means which existed to fiLd
materials for their composition, and persons in the
colony were able to form a better opinion on the sub-
ject than any one in this country. The Govern-
ment, while they thought it desirable to confer a new
constitution upon the colony, at the same time gave the
colonists the power t,) modify or alter it as they might
think fit.
Mr. BAILEY thought it was out of place to discuss
the propriety of having nominees before they had de-
cided whether there should be one or two chambers.
He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his
amendment.
Mr. MOWATT said he knew the question as to
having one or two chambers was of far less importance
to the colonists than the question as to the composition.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the lion. Gentleman made
his motion now, because he considered it was the best
opportunity he would have for discussing the merits of
it, and though the question was raised in an
unfair and inadequate manner, yet he (Mr. Gladstone)
subject.woule takel
i e
that
would
opportunity of stating his views on the
decidedly
vote with the Hon. Gen-
tleman. His decided opinion was that it constitution
formed of one chamber would be a very bad constitution.
The first object he was anxious to gain was the double
chamler. If they got that the double chamber would
right itself in its details if they did not set it
right now. His second object was that both
chambers in the main should be established upon the
principle of election for their. basis. This third object
was to give her Majesty power to con'er honours upon
a limited number of distinguished colonists, but he would
sacrifice this one if it was likely to endanger the
other two.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Right. Hon. GeLtleman
who had just sat down seemed to suppose that
Government had power to decide the course which
should be now taken, but, in point of fact,
it was decided by the forms of the 'louse.
Those who voted for the amendment would be pledged
to one chamber upon the representative principle.
Sir W. MOLESW ORM supported the amendment.
Mr. COBDEN said they ought to be cautious to
woke this Bill as perfect as possible, as they might

have it sent back to them, with not the same power to
deal with it which they possessed now. Govern-
ment was going to give a &table .chumber t . the
Cape cf Good Hope, and yet they refued the same con-
cession. to Australia. Now did the Committee think
Australia would be satisfied with that? Certainly not;
and as t',e Cape of Good Hope Lai secured to itself a
double chamber by assuming a menacing attitude, very
likely Australia would ultimately follow its example.
Mr. K. SEYMER thought there ought to be two
chambers elected upon the representative principle, and
he should certainly vet' for the amendment.
Sir B. PEEL understocd the effect of the amendment
to be the preposition of a purely democratic body, with-
out any external cheeks. To effect that object, how-
ever, the constitution in existence in the colonies would
have to be altered. But that constitution which had cx-
isle I without dissatisraction for some time, bad nomi-
nees of the'Crown. Was it to be changed without con-
sulting the colonists? And were they to have a pure
and urmixed democratic assembly imposed on theme
without the opportunity of expretsing an opinion on the
subject? He applied these arguments to the conbtituiiou
of New South Wales r rid Victoria. If he was to assume
thi., be could n, t !or a monr:cr.t be so liberal as to part
veils) the preset_ t qualifying chuck, and change a conmi•
tuticn which gave no citsatnfat ton; f :r one upon which
the colonists were not c, risulte 0.

Mr. SCOTT should vote fur the amendment, believ-
ing that if it were ta,ried, it would induce the Gover n•
meet to adopt the prioripla of double chamber.
Mr. AGLIONBY felt called upon to vote for the
amendment. The point Lai not been clearly or fully
placed before the Howie by the Right Hor. Baronet the
Member for Tamworth. He (Mr. A.) believed the
Government intended to do the best for the colonies ;
but one third of the le.gislative nominees would not effect
that purpose. The colonists of Nt w South Wales were
not satisfied with their present censtitutien, and they
deprecated its being made worse than it ie.

Mr. HAW 'S svjuld not ent?r into the general argu-
ment, but would confine himself to the amendment. The
Bill introduced nothing new into the constitution of New
South Wales; and the colonists had intimated to the
Government on all occasions their perfect sntistaction
with it, and their desire that no cbange should take
place in it without their consent. The amendment,
however, went to alter that constitution, and without the
consent of the coloniste. The Bill was brought forward
in the best spirit. He (Mr. Hawes) denied that it was
in the power of the nominees of the Crown to control
the legislature of New South Wales. The Government
wished to give the colonists the power of choosing their
own Government, and those who voted for the motion
would practically vote against that principle. If, there-
fore, the House desired to act in conformity with the
expression of the colonise they would reject the amend-
ment.

Lord J. MANNERS said, the last accounts from New
South Wales stated that Mr. Lowe had given notice of a
proposition analogous to that of the motion of the Hon.
Member. He believed that the colonists were by no
means so satisfied with their constitution as the Hoe.
Gentleman stated. The principle of nominees was the
most objectionable form that could be devised for balanc-
ing the power of a single chamber, and he should there-
fore vote for the amendment, though in so doing he
desired not to be understood as pledging himself to a
single chamber.
Mr. P. WOOD said they were now about to take a
step that might be fraught with very serious conse•
quenees as regarded the happiness or misery of what
was likely to be hereafter a great people. Under these
circumstances, the time occupied in discussing the
amendment could not be better employed. It was said
that in the present amendment they were di-cussing the
question of two chambers or one, and there was no doubt
that was really and truly the question before them. He
had experienced much d fficulty, after perusing the cor-
respondence, in ascertaining ,what were really the feel-
ings of the people.of Australia on the subject. He did
not find tt at at any of the meetings there was any sug
gestion made as to having a second chamber. II
thought it would savour of presumption in them to de-
cide for the people of Australia without giving them a
voice in the matter. They had had six years' expe-
rience of the present constitution, and they had made
no complaint about it. In his opinion it would be much
wiser to allow them to develop the particular form of
representative Government which they would prefer.
He hoped due regard would be had to a proper in-
fusion cf the democratic element into their constitu-
tion. He thought there was some advantage in having
thoee official members, who from their knowledge and
experience, would be able to give a tone and character
to the detaees of the assembly. He had as strong a
feeling fur the full development of the wishes of the
people as the Hon. Member himself, but he did not
think the proposition that had been brought forward was
the best mode of carrying it out.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. ADAIR, would have been disposed to vote
with the Bor. Gentleman, but he had happened to light
upon a paper connected with the colonies, front which it
appeared that the official nominees were in the habit of
voting independently. Of twenty-eight votes given by
the nominees, not less than nineteen were given in fa-
vour of the elective body, and he wag, therefore, led to
believe that the official members would not be found to
vote on all occasions on the side of the Government.
He should, therefore, give his vote against the amend-
merle—(Heer.)
Mr. MANGLES suggezt.d the postponement of the'
question until the bringing up of the report, or until
attar the preamble had been proved.
Mr. BASS confessed that it had occasioned him a
considerable amuuL.t of pain to differ from the Hon. and
Learned Member re tr him, but after a full considera-
tion of the merits of the case, he did not think that the
amendment was calculated to produce such a form of
government as would be satisfactory to the colonists.
Mr. MOWATT laid the adoption of his amendment
would only be the first step to the proposition of a se-
cond chamber. The Right Hon. Baronet the Member
for Tamworth hsd expr,ssed surprise that there should
be only a single cnareber with so little infusion of the
democratic element; but the Right Hon. Baronet could
not say that the nominees, being colonists, were the re-
presentatives of the aristocratic check he wished for
His main object was to carry out what the Government
had declared to be th,er bone fide intention—namely
to allow the colonists to choose their own form of go-
vernment.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the emendrrout 77
Against it ... €5
Majority against it ..„ ---S8
Mr. WALPOLE then moved the amendment of which
he :sad given notice. The, eirnp!e motion he had to make
was that the 2d clause be entirely omitted, the object of
that motion unquestionably being to substituted instead
of it a short clause of which he had given notice, and
upon which he meant to take the sense of the Committee,
to: to whi thcr there should, or should not be two llouses
of Legislature in the Australian colonies. The question
might be stated in another torm—namely, whether they
were to act on the principle s that had hitherto guided
V-.em in reference to the Governments granted to their
colonies, or whether they were to have a different sort
of government, which, so far as he could see, had no-
thing to recommend it, except its novelty-. Whatever
measures were now adopted would not merely re fur to
the Australian colonies, but would be laid down as the
type of those; institutiun-z, in any future sehetne of coloni-
sation. The question he wee about to submit to the
Committee was whether they were to adopt a form of
constitution different from that of the other colonite?
It might be laid down as a rule that when they gave
governments to a people the first principle was that they
should adhere to the habits and usages of the people.
They should der art as little as possible from the forte
aad character of that Government which time and expe-
recce had proved to be beneficial. The second prio-
ciple was that un motives of policy us well is on
grounds of justice every country should grant and secure
to its colonists, as far as it could by legislation, ad the
rights and privileges they were entitled to in the hind
from which they cams—.hat should form the basis of
their legislation. The third principle he would submit
to the Committee was, that when they were prepared
to give a constitutional government to a colony they
should found it on a I.errea,..eet basis, according to the
wiints, requirements, and necessities of the colony'.
Bearing those principles in mind, he considered that the
Committee would arrive at that conclusion, and although
the Governeneet of the country were in layout of throe
principles, unfortunately they were not contained in the
Bill. .1.),.wn to the beginning of the present century,
they had reproduced themselves in miniature models of
the British Con.itizution. They bad given their colonies,
with the exception of four, a Governor sent out by the
Crown, and an As:ea:lbl), elected by the people. The
four exceptions were Gibraltar, Malta, Newfoundland,
and Sierra Leone. Any body might see that the two
first were not exceptions, because they wero military
garrisons, end governed by military laws, like the Ro-
man military colonies—

" Propugnacula popula et speculie
Imperii Romani."
Since then they had acquired some seventeen colonies
in the West Ind:e,, Trinida), and China, and British
Guiana; on the Atric?n coast three, including the Cape
of Good Hope; to the eastward of the Cape of Good
Hope four, Mauritius, Ceylon, Labuan, and Hong-Kong;
three in New Hol;and, one in Van Dietnen's Laud •
ore in New Zealand, and one in the Falkland Island'.
V. hat had been done with respect to these? We had
not until lately given to them representative institutions,
except in 1842, when in the case of New South Wales
they introduced this anomaly which they were *OW
trying to perpetuate—the anomaly of a legislative coun-
cil,
nominees composed
ofthe
Crown. h
of elected d
anomalymembers,n
they
eyan d in Part
of
to introduce into their other colonies. Allergo wore a
Bete
having reference to principles of Government" I"!.'se
against the establishment of such an assembly
end all experience was against it likewise. It was e
principle of this country always t.) give to our colonies
the same form of government that we possessed our-
selve% That was not the principle upon which this
Bill ens funded, hut that it was the principle which we
well expressed in the
eI
ought to act upon aas admirably
paper he had advcrt,d to; the opinion of the Committee
being, that it would be most nowise to depart from the
uniformity of practice which had always been observed
in this respect. '1 he Government, iu fact, admitted that
unless sore very grave cause existed for departing from
this line of colonial policy it ought to be strictly ob-
served. From the same Committee there was another
paper, dated on the 30th of January in the present
year, which in its address to her Majesty stated, that
should her Majc.my be pleased to adopt a form of
government in which the inhabitants should be re-
presented, Lthe next queltion to be determined upon
would be, whether it should consist t f one like that of
New South Wales, or whether the old colonial system
should be adopted, of establishing three estates, in the
governor, legislative council, and representative assem-
bly. The Committee thought that the latter was to be
preferred. In the last of these papers, which related to
the Cape of Good Hope, the Government had founded