The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-17 00:00:00

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.

Mr. E. DENISON then moved for an addrets for an
account in detail of the sums of money received and
pended by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for Eng-
land. He thought that these Commissioners had exer-
cised their powers to an extreme length, and inflit•tid
great hardships on private individuals, in violatillh of the
expressed opinion of Parliament. When the returns
for which he raoved were on the table of the House, he
would bring the whole subject under the consid,ration
of Parliament.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE did not think the returns pro-
posed by his Hon. Friend were sufficient. He should
therefore move for a return of the incomes of all Arch-
bishops and Bishops of England and Wales since 1837.
Sir J. GRAHAM consented to the motion on behalf
of the Government. When the Hon. Gentleman brought
forward the subject, he should be able to show that the
principle adopted by the Church Commissioners, with
respect to Church property, was founded on evity and
justice. AS to the amendment of the Hon. Meatier who
had spoken last, (Mr. Elphiustone), he felt bound tore-
sist it.

After a few observations from Mr. Hume, Mr. V.
Smith, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. G.
Knight,
Sir R. PEEL said he hoped the Commissioners would
exercise the powers which the Legislature had given to
them unfettered in their discretion, and that nothing
which occurred in debate in that House would induce
them to take any other course than that which a sense
of duty dictated. The Orders in Council were in them-
selves great, but in his opinion the Co missioners had
exercised their power under them with great diseret'.cti
and judgment. The chief object of their labours would.
ba to increase the value of ecclesiastical property, and
apply that increase to the supply of the spiritual wants
of the nation. Again, he would express his hope that
they would not be influenced in their conduct by any
mere debate in that House.

Mr. MUM: said, as the Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Dennison) had expressed his determination to bril.g
this subject distinctly before the House on a fut-re
occasion, he should be prepared to talc- part iii thy dis-
cussion; and protect the interests of the irhabitsnts.

Dr. tOWII,ING said, this was a motion merely asking
for' some statistical details, and he had not heard a
shadow of a reason for refusing them. Surely when that
House asked for certain facts of a case it was not right
in the Government to refuse them.

Mr. BROTHERTON said, Hon. Gentlemen on the
opposite side of the House, when sitting on the seats
occupied by himself and friends, used to charge
upon them that they were great spoliators of
the Church ; but he believed those persons who thus
impugned the conduct of others were, after all,
but pretended friends of the Church—(Rear, hear)--
and he (Mr. Brotherton) believed that Lord John Rus-
sell's Bill for the better regulation of Church property
would have been carried if there had not been found so
many leaseholders of Cki•rch property in otiposition tcs
it.—(Cheers and laughter.) The landed interest had
got hold of Church property .on easy terms, and they
liked it very much.—(Laughter.) He (Mr. Brotherton'
therefore, hoped with the Right Hon. Baronet alt the
head of the Government, that the Commissioners would
make the most they could of the ecclesiastical property
committed_ to their charge, and be guarded by their own
sense of what wag right rather than to the suggestions of
other people,
Mr.- WAWN said, that coming from Durham, he onuld
speak of that place as well as most people, and he begged
to give his opinion that the greatest spoliators of Church.
property were the clergy themselves.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, and the
numbers were--

For tho amendment
Against it
Majority against the amendments.., --18
The original motion was then granted,

LUNATICS AT HAMAR.
Captain PECHELL brougliit under the cot,siclerati
of the House the case of the lunatic naval aticers in the
hospital at Haslar. He stated the circumstances under
which they were removed from the asylum at Hoxton to
Haslar, and the regulations made by the Admiralty for
deducting from the half-pay, received by their wives, one
half of the usual amount oot account of additional expense.
By an order from the Admiralty, dated 11th Jan. 1532,
it was agreed to restore this pay, with the arrears, but
the order was afterwards cancelled. When the Right
Hon. Gentleman recollected the suffering which hall been
caused by withholding those small sums, he thought he
would alter his opinion and allow an inquiry into those
cases. He now came to the particularcase of Mrs. Forbes,
whose claim the Government refused, because, they
said his insanity was not caused while in the service he
was employed in. But it could be moved beyond all
doubt, he believed, that the seeds of the disease under
which he suffered were in consequence of the erriployineA
he was engaged in, on board the Vengeur, in New Or-
leans. It was said that Lieutenant Forbes had left the
service and entered into the merchant service ; but he
retained his half pay, and had the sanction of the Ad-
miralty for taking that step. If the Gallant
Admiral made the proper inquiries he would find
that what he (Captain Pechell) had stated was correct.
He did not believe that either the Hon. Mereber for
Montrose, or the lion. Member for Coventry, would have
any objection to granting those small sums to those per-
sons in Haslar Hospital, and that those were not items to
which they had any objection. The motion he had to
make was for a Select Committee, to...which the petitions
of Mrs, Charlotte Forbes, Mrs. Sarah Ricketts, and Mrs.
Burgess were to be referred,

Mr. HUME had supported the claims of Mrs. Forbes
eighteen years ego, and he looked upon the claim as one
obef justice, and trusted the time was come when it would
granted. •
Sir G. COCKBURN said that the rule had formerly
been, that officers who became insane while on service
were taken into the asylum at Hasler, and that half
their half-pay was devoted to their maintenance, the
other half being paid to the relations. In 1822 this in-
dulgence was extended to officers on half-pay. In 183),
instead of deducting half the half-pay, a deduction was
made of Is. 6d. a day, but that was merely a prospec-
tive regulation, and there was no claim on the
Government for the repayment of that money
which had been before paid voluntarily. Now,
with regard to the case of Mrs. Forbes, he
agreed in all that had been said hi the praise of that
most meritorious lady ; but he denied that Lieutenant
Forbes's insanity had been occasioned by his sufferings
in the service. He had been a midshipman on board
the Vengeur: before New Orleans. It did not appear
from the surgeon's books that he had suffered any illness
there, He had been promoted at the peace, and in 1822
he had taken the command of a merchantman. She hail
been seized by Bolivar, either at Lima or Guyaquil, and
Lieut. Forbes had left her. He returned across the
Isthmus of Darian, and, in consequence, probably,
of the unhealthiness of the climate of Panama,
he had lost his sight. He retired to London,,
blind but not insane, and two years afterwards his friends
applied to the Admiralty to have him admitted into the
lunatic asylum at Haslar, of course, in accordance with
the regulations there in existence. He gave the Hon.
and Gallant Officer great credit for his wigh to a:sist
Mrs. Forbes, who was a most deserving lady, but he
could not hold out any hope that the Admiralty would
grant her claims.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK supported the motion.
Mr. PLUMPTRE bore testimony to the high pa ex-
cellent character of Mrs. Forbes.
Mr. S. HERBERT could also bear testimony bo the
excellent conduct of Mrs. Forbes, and regretted that
neither the Board of Admiralty nor the Government
could promise to take her case into consideration be-
cause that would be tantamount to saying that the claims
would be granted. The subject had been carefully cony
sidered, and the Admiralty had decided that they could
not,consistently with their duty, grant the claims of Mrs.
Forbes.

Mr. WILLIAMS said this case was one of extremes
hardship ; and if anything would justify the departures
from an established rule, it was such cuicumistances as
had just been brought under the notice of the House.
He would go as far to maintain economy as any one,
but he thought the strongest sticklers for prudence in.
the outlay of public money would be disposed to look
with most favourable feelings upon the present case.
Mr. HAVES said, in such a case as this, the techni-
cal rules of the service ought to be allowed to give wey
to considerations of humanity.
Sir C. NAI'IER said it appeared to him to 'be the
most unjust thing in the world to reihse-this claim. Ss,
however, the Gallant Admiral (Sir G. Cockburn) seemed
disposed to do something in this matter--,and he did not
doubt his sincerity--(Hear, hear)—he hoped het otim-
Gallant Eriond (ijaptain Pechell) would not Ness the
cluotiatt to a division, as perhaps, such a course /night
weaken the kind feeling which now he believed to-pre-
vail at the Admiralty in reference to it.—(Hear.)