The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

pasty, end amidst the cheers of that party declare that
so long as the present Parliament should endure, a
return to the protective system was impossible.—(Minis-
terial cheer s.) The House was greatly indebted to the
Hoe. Gentleman for this fra.ik and candid avowal, and
he was net open to the taunt or having said out of the
House what he was not pro; a-ed to say or had not raid
io the liouse.---(Hear, hear.) lie hal not fostered or
encouraged that tnischievons delusion which had been
fostered and encouraged at these agricultural meetings—
which had led assay the tenant-farmers from the use ef
those means which Providence had placed within their
reach to met t the altered circumstances of the times, to
lock for that ignis
_farms, the restoration of protection
-a protection which their great leader admitted to be
utterly hopeless in the present Parliament.—(Cheers.)
It was said that this expression of hopelessness was only
upplicabla to the durivion of the present Parliament,
and that another Parliament would meet probably return
t ) the protetive system. lb utterly disbelieved
in the possibility of any such return.—(Cheer?.) He
believed the incalculable blessings of the present
system of our commercial policy were so widely felt, had
catered so much into the everyday comforts of every
working man in the c iuntry, whether manufacturing or
agricultural—that they would never consent to a return
to the old system. The lion. Member had avowed
that the decision of both Houses at the beginning of the
session was a (1, cisive expression of opinion that neither
branch of the Legislature were prepared t rc tarn to a
protective system.—(hear, hear.) The lion. Member
had said but little of the actual distress, upon which the
whole basis of his motion rested. He had assumed the
existence of extensive and del) distress throughout the
agricultural districts of the country, and the only allu-
sion which he had merle to any particular instance of
the distress, was a supposition that if the returns rela-
tive to pauperism had been made up to the Ist of Fe-
bruary instead of the let of January, 1850, for the pur-
pose of comparison with the corresponding month of the
preceding yt ar, an increase would have been found in
the number of persons receiving relief. Now he (Sir
George Grey) considered that to be a perfectly gra-
tuitous assumption. There was no evidence to justify
any such supposition, although perhaps in some
instances, owing to the long-continued frost,
draining and other works of that description had been
for a time stispended.—(hear, hear.) He did not wish
to join issue with the Hon. Gentleman upon the fact of
the existence of agricultural distress. That fact had
been fully admitted, and her Niajesty had bean advised
to express her regret at the existence of that distress.
No doubt prices had been so low as to occasion distress
amongst the owners and occupiers of land in various
parts of the country; but this had arisen from a variety
of causes, comprising amongst others the free importa-
tion of grain in a year when there was an abundant har-
vest. But looking to the great portion of the agricul-
tural population of the country, there was sufficient proof
of their condition having been materially improved, as
compared with the preceding year. The best test of
the condition of that population was the state of
crime and pauperism, and he would just trouble the
House with a few facts, for the purpose of showing
that a beneficial effect had been produced. On a com-
parison of crime, as evidenced by commitments in Eng-
land and Wales, in 1848 and 1849, it appears that the
commitments in 1848 were 30,349; in 1849, 27,772;
showing a decrease in 1949 of 2,571, or 8.5 per cent. On
a comparison of the number of persons receiving paro-
chial relief on the Ist of January 1849 and 1850 re-
spectively, it appears that the number was, on the Ist of
January, 1849, 987,164; Ist of January, 1850, 923,167;
showing a decrease in 1850 of 63,997, or 6.4 per cent.
On an analysis of the returns, it appears that there has
been a de3reaso of crime in 31 counties; that there has
been a decrease of pauperism in 32 counties; and that
there are 20 of the above counties in which there
has been a decrease of both crime and pauperism,
comprising a population of 9,204,586, nearly two-thirds
of the whole, while there are only 9 counties (including
4 in Wales) in which there has been any increase both
of crime and pauperism. In confirmation of this state-
ment with respect to the country generally, he would
read a few remarks addressed to the grand jury of Mid-
dlesex at the Central Criminal Court, by the Learned
Recorder, on the 4th Feb. inst. The Learned Gentle-
man expressed his great satisfaction at the diminution
of the number of prisoners committed for trial to this
court. The jurisdiction of the Central Criminal
Court, he said, extended over a population
of 2,000,000, and at the present session there
were only 123 persons committed for trial, which was
very considerably less than the number committed at the

in the course of which speech the Honourable Gentle.
man, after having advocated a transference of the local
taxation of the agricultural districts to the general
taxation of the country, had stated that that was not the
only relief to which the egrieulturiets were entitled, and
that it would not by itself enable them to be ,r up
against the altered circumstances in which they were
placed. The Honourable Gentleman had gone on to
say that, immediately after the assembling of Perlis--
ment, he thought that all England ought to pray for
the establishment of a sinking fund, and that, in his
opinion, the best and most practical way of crewing
such a fund was to lay an ad valorem duty on all articles
of foreign import.—(Hear, hear.) The Hotsoureede
Gentleman had added, " That is the weapon—the
charmed weapon—with which wo shall win the battle.
Put that weapon into the hands of any knight whom
you may choose to fight your battle, and I
stoke my political reputation on its suseess." Now, he
(Sir G. Grey) thought they had a right to know
whether the Hon. Gentleman still staked his politica'
reputation on the success of such a proposal, and whe-
ther, if they were to nerve to that motion they were to
have an ad valorem duty upon every article of f sreign
import, inclu ling, of course, the article of c srn ? That
was a question t s which he hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would give an explicit answer before they sh iuld go to
a division upon the subject then under their coesidera-
tion. lie could assure the Hun. Gentleman that be had
listened with much satisfaction to the temperate tone of
his address that evening; he did not think there was a
single expression in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman
which could give pain t) any one; and he only hoped
that in the answer he had euaeavoured to give to that
speech he hal avoided stating anything which could give
offence, and not only which could give offence, but which
could indicate a want of sympathy toe his part in the dis-
tress which prevailed among a portion of the agricul-
tural body. Ho should observe, however, that the Hon.
Gentleman himself considered that a return to the pro-
tective system, as a remedy for that distress, was f
the present, at least, perfectly hopeless. AU
his (Sir G. Grey's) interests were intimat-ly con-
nected with the prosperity of the agricultural body; and
he believed that nothing could be more prejudicial to
that body than to lead them to expect great relief from
any system which Parliament could pursue. He was
convinced that a return to the protective system
was at present utterly out of the question. He be •
lieved that such a measure would be mischievous
t all classes of the community. He believed that
the true interests of the agricultural body were inti-
mately bound up with the true interests of every other
class in the community, and that it was impossible that
manufactures could flourish in any country in which
agriculture was permanently depressed.—(Hear.) He
admitted, as he had before stated, that distress prevailed
among a portion of the agricultural classes; but that was
no reason why they should not endeavour to improve
their condition by energy, industry, and the application
of increased skill and capital to the cultivation of the
land. He trusted that the result of the discussions
in that House would be to undeceive those who might
have been misled by what on one occasion had been
called the " splendid coruscations" of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Buckinghamshire. He trusted that the plain
sense which people were compelled to speak in that House
would have the effect of showing the agriculturists of
the country, who admired, and justly admired, the elo-
quence of the Hon. Gentleman, that they had been de-
ceived, and that they had been led to indulge in vain
anticipations of large measures of relief, especially by a
return to the protective system. He trusted that they
would see that they only injured themselves by that de-
spondent spirit, which was encouraged and fostered by
persons who, or their own sakes, should have endea-
voured to create among them a very different temper of
mind. He believed that the discussion on the Address,
which had taken place at the commencement of the ses-
sion, the discussion upon the present occasion, and the
discussion which would take place on any subsequent
pol
cp or mo PI seat n which h
thesetrieeslon G
of measures
easeunrtelemswan might make forhichhewouldwish
e them t
ul
tu
rio s adopt,tsof this w ocuoludnht
country
e the
to
look efretcot tolef elme asdeil nv
ge
s fhoer aag ri
re-
medy of the evils of which they complained by a better
cultivation of the land, and the employment of that in-
dustry and energy which distinguished all classes of
Englishmen, and which they, too, possessed.—(Hear,
hear.) For the reasons he had stated, he felt bound
to oppose the motion which the Hon. Gentleman had
made.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. CHAR FEE'S said he felt bound to support the
motion. It appeared to him that the speech of the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just addressed the House had
been mainly directed t o show that the burdens on land
had been considerably diminished in consequence of the
increased value of house property during the last 30 or
40 years. But if the burdens were in themselves unjust,
as he (Mr. Charteris) believed them to be, he felt that
their being at present less than they had formerly been
afforded no sufficient ground for opposing their removal.
The Hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire
had based his claim for a removal of those burdens on
the prevalence of agricultural distress. Now, he (Mr.
Charteris) did not deny the existence t f that distress,
although he did not attribute it to the same cause to
which it had been attributed by the Hon. Gentleman,
and he did not believe that it would be permanent. But
he did not wish to come before that House/ n forma pau
peril, while ho thought that he could claim redress as a
matter of simple justice. It appeared to him that the
Hon. Gentleman had damaged his case, and had preju-
diced the interest of his constituents, by making
an appeal ad misericordiam in their favour.
The question at issue wan, wh et is the law
of England upon the subject of poor-law taxa-
tion ? That taxation
_rested on the 43.1 of Elizabeth,
which enacted that every man should be called upon to
support the poor in proportion to his ability. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the
Home Department had attempted to show that Lord
Mansfield was of opinion that pe-soual property did not
come within the operation t f the statute. But Lord
Mansfield had merely asserted the impolicy, or the im-
practicability, of so extending the measure ; and Lord
Kenyon, and the other judges of England, had declared
in the year 1795, that personal property, including stock
in trade, was liable to the poor-rate. That liability was
supposed in the preamble of the very Act which
was passed each year for exempting stock in trade
f,om the rate. That latter Act was,She believed.. 'un-
just in principle and temporary in its character, while
the old law upon the subject was just and reasonable.
The modern Act was only passed for a year, because
no Minister would venture to propose the permanent
operation of such a measure.—(Hear, hear.) Let it
be remembered that the charges for lunatic asy-
lums and for the constabulary, the borough rate, the
hundred rate, and several other rates, had of late years
been added to the bur dens on real property. Now, it
seemed to him to be only just that personal property
should be made to bear its fair share of all these burdens
—Meer, hear). But it was said that it would be impos-
sible to levy a rate upon personal property. Now, he
could not agree in that opinion, for he believed that the
raising of an income-tax clearly proved that a poor rate
might be levied upon the profits of trade. He believed
that in such cases where there was a will there was a
way; and that the difficulties which were apprehended
in the matter would, if boldly grappled with, rapidly
disappear. But even if the Legislature and the Govern-
ment could not do justice to the agricultural interest in
that way, then he said that they were bound to offer them
compensation in some other form. He did not mean to
fend the different modes in which the Hon. Member
for Buckinghamshire proposed that they should receive
relief, because he was well aware of the force of the argu-
ment that a transference of many of those local charges to
the general taxation of the country would open the door
to abuse and to extravagant expenditure. There were other
changes, however, which might be made without a liability
to that objection, which he admitted to be a valid one, for
be believed that this country owed much of her great-
ness to her system of self-government and her municipal
institutions, and he should be sorry to see established
among us that centralisation, or that bureaucratic sys-
tem, which generally prevailed throughout the conti-
nent. But it appeared to him that the charge for lunatic
asylums, for gaols, for the constabulary, and several
others, could be transferred to the Consolidated Fund
without interfering with our system of local self-govern-
ment. He could not help thinking that manufacturers
and fundholders ought to be made to contribute to the
support of the peer and to other local burdens. They'
were as much interested as the agriculturists in the inter-
nal tranquillity of the country. If there should be a
disturbance in the manufacturing districts, it would not
be the land, but the mills and factories that
would be endangered—(Hear, hear)—and if there
should be an insurrection in Lancashire: or Yorkshire,
that would necessarily react on the Stock Exchange, and
create a fall in the value of the funds. The agricultural
interest had, therefore, a right to claim an alteration in
the present mode of rating property, or some equivalent
compensation if that alteration should be found inexpe-
dient.—(hear, hear.)
Mr. ANDERSON said ho had given notice of an
amendment to the motion of the Hon. Member for Buck-
inghamshire, but he thought it better not to bring forward
that amendment, as it was, in his opinion, desirable that
the motion of the HOD. Member should bo considered
upon its own merits. He was happyrteott mss
hiinkpothaitbiae
return to the protective system was at present
in; his country. He had made as accurate an estimate
t was in his power to have made of the sum which the
inhabitants of these kingdoms bad since the year 1815
paid for their corn in addition to its fair and natural
value, in consequence of the imposition of the corn-law;
and after estimating that value at the price in foreign
markets and the cost of freightage to this country, he
found that that sum amounted, at the lowest calcula-
tion, to 750,000,0001., or about the whole of our national
debt.

held in his hand a paper, moved f by the Right Hon-
Baronet the Momber for Ripon in 1815. relating to the: ce.
burdens, from the year 1813 to 1845. It cppeared from
that paper that the amount levied on real property it
1813, for poor and county-ral, was 8,646,8411., and ix
1849, 7,674,1461., being about 1,000,00fg.. less in 18 4rd

for the home market. He should be sorry to view this
ques•ion a; a class question; but if it were to be so
viewed he should et and by his own class, which was the
most important in the c ountry.—(llear, hear.) It the
match were to be all England on one side, and Lenes-
shire and Yorkshire on the other, he should play on the
side of all England, and not despair of success in spits of
the hard hitting of the Ilan. Member for the West Ridnig
of Yorkshire, or the somewhat crooked bowling of the
Hon. Member for Manchester.—(A laugh.) The Right
Hon. Member for Tatnworth expressed in 1840 his appro-
hensi on that the removal of protection would lead to
unfavourable results, as regarded not only the agri-
cul•te hte but the classes identified with them
in interest. It was not t Hansardise the Right Hon.
Baronet that he made that reference; but because in
then expressing the views he (Mr. Seymer) now en ter-
taine-1, the Right Hon. Baronet st ated the results of his
previous rxp Tience, answered the speeches he had since
male, and uttered predictions which had since been ve-
rified. If the Right Hon. Baronet Rere present he
might ask, Had any one too much? No; many had not
°lough, as any one might see from le•ters v. hieh had
appeared in the Morning Chronicle. So much English
corn was displace I for foreign; :eel if so much Eeglish
!aheur were displaced wages f the whole would be re
(laced. Thu reason why so little seemed likely to be
done for relief of the dist-ess was that it was spoken of
as temporary, because the price of corn was rising.
Honourable Members seemed afraid of their own
principles, for if they were to buy in the cheap-
est market the cheapest market could not be
too cheap; yet attempts were making on the Minis-
t'rial ride of the House to show that prices would
rise. Why. these Hon Gentlemen ought to prove th tt
they would f,ll.—(hear.) There were two sections on
that side—the friends of agriculture, who tried to show
that this year was exceptional; and the Free-tnelers, who
thought it would not matter if not a blade of corn was
grown in the country. The argument drawn from the
poor-law returns was fallacious; it cost the farmers
less to employ labourers at low wages than to keep
them in the workhouse. He agreed with the proposal
of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire in thinking
that the establishment charges under the poor-law
should be transferred to general taxation. He knew
persons allied with Free-traders who said, if there were
not a change for the better in agriculture they would be
prepared to consider the question.—(Hear, hear.) As
there was a desire to divide to-night, if possible, he
should detain the House further only to express his
confidence that if they were to have no protection or re-
lief from local burdens, if Excise regulations inconsist-
ent with the first principles of free trade wore conti-
nued, they would defeat Hon. Members on the other
side before the end of the session.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. RICE, while he could not think the Hon. Member
for Buckinghamshire expected the House to adopt his
motion, would not have been prepared to object had the
proposition been to appoint a Select Committee to in-
quire how fir these local burdens might have been ad-
justed so as to give relief to the agricultural interest.
Had the Hon. Member for Orkney (Mr. Anderson) per•
gated in his amendment he should have moved an
amendment thereupon. [An Hoer. MEMBER—The two
Kings of Brentford.] As long as Hon. Gentlemen ad-
hered to the idea of protection they would get no relief
in any other way; till they had abandoned it the House
would not fairly consider the question.—(cheers from
the Opposition.) He had always voted for an alteration
of the corn-laws with the Hon. Member for Wolver-
hampton (Mr. Villiers), but had supported the motion
for a fixed duty, and thought a small duty for the pur-
mtNphioeeesnme>oucefersirsute.ibvoennihnueetThhweheoluldusifldaienrbmoehfeiarsTsn advantageous settlement of
handhla'neer
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ft tohifne Far-
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r
opinion the battle of protection had been fought and lost.
In lieu of protection they urged other measures of re-
lief, which were at least worthy of consideration. They
urged that the income-tax should be levied in a different
manner from what it was at present; that the parochial
and county rates should be levied on property and in-
come generally; that the duty should be taken off malt
and other similar articles, and placed on the import of
such articles of agricultural manufacture as meal and
flour, and, lastly, they asked that the salaries in all
public departments should be reduced in a correspondieg
degree with the price of provisions. Many of these pro-
positions he thought just, and all of them worthy of con-
sideration; but he rose chiefly to say that the agricul-
tural interest could hare no claim to these advantages
until they had honestly abandoned all idea of a return
to protection. He wished to see all these questions
fairly considered on their merits; but he was not pre-
pared to vote for the very extensive measures of the
lion. Member for Buckinghamshire. Instead of bringing
these matters forward in a single motion, he agre:d
with the Right Hon. Baronet that they should have
occupied a series of resolutions.—(Hear.)
Sir J. TYRELL said, he was remarkably well satis-
fied with tho speech which the Hon. Gentleman had just
thought proper to make—as well satisfied as the lion.
Gentleman could possibly be himself—(A laugh)—
giving the House all the advantage of the various argu-
ments he had made use of, and admitting, as ho had
done, the justice of those propositions which had been so
ably advanced by his Hon. Friend the Member for
Buckinghamshire. He did not know, however, that he
could give the Hon. Gentleman credit f m great disin-
terestedness, considering the proximity of the Isle of
Thanet to the town of Dover, and the natural anxiety
which the Hoe. Gentleman entertained with reference to
the future representation of that town.—(A laugh.) It
was true the farmers, as a body, had refused to petition
that House, agreeing with the Hon. Gentleman that
however just their claims they had little to expect from
Parliamei t. They d:d complain, however, of the gr, at
disrespect with which their clams had been treated by
the First Minister of the Crown in the speech from the
Phr,:ne. The Noble Lord and his colleagues said they
had heard that certaln landowners and cceupiers of the
soil complained, and that was immediately followed by an
expression of satisfaction at the comforts which had been
enjoyed by the great mass of the community in consequence
:if the extreme depression and great lowering of prices.
That seemed to him to be much the same sort of satis-
faction as a man enjoyed when he broke into the larder
and robbed the till.—((;reat laughter.) The Right
[lon. Baronet had drawn a great picture of the pro3pe.
rity of the country arising from the diminution of the
poor-rates; but ho (Sir J. Tyrell) would venture to say
that that diminution, of nearly 400,0001., had arisen en-
tirely from the circumstance of great economy and a
wetter management of the machinery of the poor-law,
and not from any other cause. The agricultural into-
rest considered themselves deeply grieved in another
thing. An Honourable Gentleman of great ability had
been put forward to move the answer to the speech,
who, in his opinion, had been treated with somewhat of
neglect and injustice. The Government had brought
that Honourable Gentleman out, as ono of the brightest
weapons in their armoury, finally to dispose of the
question before the House. And now, with the per-
mission of the llonourable Gentleman, he would cha-
racterise him as "the destroyer," and the Hon. Member
for the West Riding as " the divider of the spoil"—
(A laugh)—and he would make good that proposition.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government
said seine time ago, esith the greatest triumph and con-
fidence, " if it can be shown that the poor man pays 15.,
or 23., or 3s. a week more for his bread than he would
otherwise pay, are you prepared to face that?" He (Sir
J. Tyrell) answered that with this proposition. If the
Hoe. Gentle:nau the Member for Wolverhampton, in
the receipt of 1,2001 a year—no sinecure, ho admitted—
could cause that 1,2001, to be equal to 1,5001. or 1,6001,
he could quite understand the Hon. Gentleman's readi-
ness and preparation to face that.—(A laugh.) That
proposition perfectly squared with his understanding.—
(Renewed laughter.) In his opinion the Hon. Members
for Wolverhampton and the West Riding ought at that
moment to be sitting on the Treasury bench side by side
with the llon. Member for Westbury, and he should
like to know what offer had been made to the former of
those two Hon. Gentlemen with reference to the accep-
tation of office, for he could not believe that his merits
had been overlooked.—(A laugh.) He did know
that a proposition had been made to the Hon. Mew
ber for the West Riding to take his seat on the Trea-
sury bench, aed he knew the details of it. He (Sir
J. Tyrell) hail made that statement once before in that
House, and he hoped the Noble Lord would excuse him
for asking this slight interrogation, viz., whether he did
not know that to be precisely the fact?—(Laughter.)
The Noble Lord smiled; but notwithstanding the num-
ber of years he had sat opposite to the Noble Lord, he
was unable now to say, from the indication of
his countenance, whether that slight interrogatory
was answered, and whether the Hon. Member had been
cffered office or not.—(Great laughter.) Ho would as-
sume, then, that silence gave consent. He would go still
further, and tell the house and the country—for it was
no breach of confidence—that a commissioner had been
sent from the Government to offer office to the Hon.
Member for the West Riding; and he would tell the
House further the answer of the Hon. Member, for it
sense
ean
which answer
g characterised e
nerally
d b
is ting
uiy hs h
et I et h
e sagacitylio andn. Gentleman g
o d
as a Member of that House. The Hon. Gentleman said,

than in 1813, although the population had ircressedfr len
10,448,000 in 1813 to 17,715,000 in 1849. The num' ;07
who paid the rate had increased, while the charge 1 ad
diminished from 12s. 8(1. a head to 6s. 61. per heal, 1 je..
ing a diminution f nearly a half.—(Hear, hear.) He
came now to another point on which the Hon. Me& ier
touched but lightly, and that was the proportion at
which land was assessed, compared with other ki ads
of real property, for the relief of the poor. He fuel
understood the Honourable Member to say that the
landed interest were assessed for two-thirds of the amoun t.
—(Mr. Disraeli dissented.) lie begged the Hen.
Meaab.rr's p srd,rn. He believed he hal not arivert.e.l to
the subject, and it was therefore the more necessary
that he (Sir G. Grey) should do so.—(A laugh.) 'Oll
ref?rrin,g to the report of the Poor-law Cornmissionors
of 1844, he found it stated that tie value of rats able pro-
perty had gre itly increased since 1513. In that year it
was as,sessed to the value of 51,895,4231., but in 1843 it
ha 1 increased t 85 807,7311. Su that the gross rave had
decreased, although the value of real property had
grestly increased. He f quid from subsequent reterns
that a progressive him ale had taken pla-a; in the value
of real property down to 1848:
Iu the value was 51,893,4231.
1842 it had increased to 85,000,000/.
1844 f 1 86,000,0001.
1846 92 89,000,0001.
1848 - 91,000,0001.
With regard to the proportion between the value (f land
and the value of other real property, he held in his
band a return which showed the increase of each at dif-
ferent periods. There had been an increase in the value
of landed property, but not to so great an extent as the
increase that had taken place in the value of other kinds
of rest estate, such as house property and railways. It
appeared therefore that land now ,said 45 per coat., in-
stead of 52, while other descriptions of real property paid
55, inste ad of 48 percent.—(Hear, hmr.) In the report of
the Lords' Committ, e of 1846 it vs as stated that the
rates had diminished, that property had augmented,
and that the rates on the laud had been greatly re-
duced. He should not now enter upon the ques-
tion of the reductions affecting real property.
He should only remind the House that in 1846
a sum of nearly 100,000/. had been transferred from the
local taxation for the purposes of poor relief to the
Consolidated Fund, and had since then been annually
voted by Parliament. Having ant: cipated the two ob-
jections referred to, the Hon. Member for Bucks then
claimed for real property an exemption from a large
share of its present local burdens, en the ground that
when they were imposed the protective system existed,
and that it was unjust, now that that system had ceased,
to exact these burdens to the same extent as before.
But since the time of Elizabeth there hal been various
systems of protection, and he thought it would puzzle
the Hon. Member to show during the period that has
since elapsed that corresponding advantages were en-
joyed by the land. There were other things which had
been more highly prt-lectel than land, and the only
difference between them and real estate in this respect
was, that land was the last great branch of industry
which lost its protection; and, therefore, if there were
any grounds for the claim, land—rather than other
kinds of industrial property which had been deprived of
protection at an earlier period—should bear these bur-
dens.—(Hear.) The proposals of the Hon. Member for
Bucks were embraced in three resolutions. In the firs

instance, he propoFel that all established charges of the
poor-law should be transferred from the local taxation
—that they should no longer be borne by the property
of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but that they should
be paid out of the Imperial Treasury.. The Hon. Mem-
ber had estimated these established charges at 1,500,0001.
but he believed the amount borne by England did not
exceed 776,000/.
Mr. DISRAELI—The last returnmade them 980,0001
Sir G. GREY—True; but in consequence of an Act
which passed in the subsequent year there was a reduc-
tion in their amount of 200,0001. The Hon. Member
for Bucks stated that the transfer would not violate any
principle, as these established charges did not stand on
the same ground as the funds necessary for the relief of

the poor. —But there would be the greatest extravagance
with respect to many of these charges if they were to
take away the local check which at present existed. He
believed if they were transferred to the Consolidated
Fund it would be impossible to say to what extent these
charges would be increased.—(Hear, hear.) The next
proposition of the Hon. Member was that all other
rates, county rate and police rate excepted, should be
transferred from the local to the general taxation of the
country. The amount of these different rates the lion.
Member estimated at 500,0001., the total amount of
the rates proposed to be so transferred being 2,200,0004
Looking to some of the items comprehended in the
minor rates, he was not prepared to say that his Right
Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when he came to deal with any surplus revenue,
might not consent to some alteration. At all eventl! he
was not prepared to ask the House to negative, by anti
cipation, the transfer of any particular charge, to which
❑o objection could be made, from the local to the general
taxation of the country. In arguing against the pro-
posals generally, he did not wish to prejudice any future
discussion as to the transfer of any of the smaller
charges, such as that male in 1846 at the suggestion of
the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Tarnworth.
He was not prepared to say, that between those charges
and those enumerated by the Hon. Member fir Bucks
any distinction in principle existed which would justify
the House in refusing to make the change. In resisting
the present proposal, the Government were cot to be
precluded from considering and bringing forward any
proposition of the kind to which he had referred. The
next proposal of the Hon. Member was, that the whole
charge for the casual poor should also he transferred to
the Consolidated Fund. The Hon. Member had not
even attempted to estimate the expense of the casual poor
of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but proposed to
transfer it at once to the Consolidated Fund.

corresponding session of last year, and was also much
smaller than the ordinary average of committals for the
period that had elapsed since the last session; and he said
that, to whatever cause such a result was to be attri-
buted, it must be most satisfactory to every person con-
cerned in the administration of criminal justice, and also
to the community at large. The Learned Recorder then
said that by returns which were before him it appeared
that there had been 593 less persons committed during
the year 1849 than in the previous year; and be also
congratulated the grand jury that robberies with violence,
and other offences of that character, appeared also to be
on the decrease. It might be said that that related to
the 2,000,000 of the population within the jurisdiction of

the Central Criminal Court. He should therefore show
the same results in the last country quarter sessions,
and he hoped that would satisfy the Hon. Member for
Essex. In England and Wales the number of trials at
the last quarter sessions in 1849 was 4,443—in the last
quarter sessions, held in the present year, 1850, the
number was 3,980, being a diminution of 463, or a de-
crease of about 10 per cent.—(Hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman, in introducing the subject, had said little or no-
thing about Ireland, and had not alluded to Scotland, no
doubt because the report on the table with reference to
the latter country did not strengthen his case. That re-
port did show an increase of the poor on the roll, but it
also showed a remarkable decrease of that class best
distinguished as the casual poor in the year 1849, as
compared with 1848. He had received a letter from Sir
J. M icneil, the President of the Board of Works in
Scotland, dated the 29th January, who, in reference to
this subject, stated—" Information upon this subject
(the state of the working classes in Scotland) from all
parts of the country comes incidentally bef ,re the board
in the course of investigations as to complaints of in-
adequate relief. The information derived from this
source concurs with all the other information to which
I have access to establish the fa it that, except in some
parts of the highlands and islands, the working classes
of Scotland—agricultural, manufacturing, and mining—
urban and rural, taken together, have not, during the
four years that I have been connected with this
board, been at any time so well off as they have
been during the last half of 1849. There has
been no other season within that time when
the abundance of employrnen', and the general ade-
quacy of wages, with reference to prices, has enabled so
large a proportion of the working population of this
country to command an ample supply of the neces-
saries of life." He did not deny that distress existed,
but it existed among the owners and occupiers, end in a
much less degree than it did twelve months ago among
the great bulk of the people. In many cases he believed
their wages had been reduced to a greater degree than
could bo compensated for by any reduction that had
taken place in the price of articles of food. But speak-
ing generally, and more particularly of that part of Eng-
landwith which ho was connected, North Northumber
land, he did not believe that wages had been reduced to
a greater degree than would be compensated for by a re-
duction in the prices of the necessaries of life. He be-
Hove I in some places in Lincolnshire, for instance where
wages had been reduced so low as 6s. per week, the re-
duction had been made to fall unduly on the labourer,
rents not having been reduced at all in pro-
portion.—(flear, hear.) He was surprised that in
dealing with so important a subject as the poor-laws
the Hon. Member for Bucks had alluded only parenthe-
tically to a part of the question of the greatest import-
ance to the great bulk of the population—the law of
settlement.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman did
not this year propose a great transfer of the local taxa-
tion for the poor, because he was aware it would load to
a national rate, and the abolition of the law of settlement.
If they were to go into Committee of the whole House
upon the subject of the poor-law, the very first question
they would have to consider would be the law of settle-
ment. All the evidence collected by the Committee on
that question showed that the law of settlement ope-
rated prejudicially to the interests of the agricultural
labourer—that it restricted his labour, and that the
greatest boon to him would be a judicious alteration of
that law. The subject had occupied the attention of the
Government, and at no distant period he hoped to be
able to make some proposal to the House on that most
important subject. He should now refer to the grounds
upon which the Hon. Gentleman rested his pro-
positions. The foundation of the whole argument of
the Hon. Getleman was the injustice of exclusively bur-
dening the land with the payment of poor-rates. He
thought the Hon. Gentleman had fallen into the same
error this year as he had last, of confounding real pro-
perty with landed property. (Slr. Disraeli made an ob-
servation which was not heard in the gallery.) Let it
be understood, then, that in speaking of the property
which contributed 12,000,000/. of local taxation, they
were speaking, net of what was called the landed in-
terest, but of real property assessed for the relief of the
poor. The Honourable Gentleman said it was not just
that property connected with the soil—those were his
words—should bear exclusively that large burden, and
the Hon. Gentleman spoke of land going out of cultiva-
tion in consequence of those exclusive burdens and of
the continually increasing charges on land. Tho Hon.
Gentleman had anticipated two objections—one he
would admit, the other he would combat—the impos-
sibility of taxing personal property for the purposes of
the poor, the other, that from time immemorial real
property had been exclusively subjected to that burden.
He would take the last first, and was prepared to
contend that ever since the 43d Elizabeth, the great bulk
of real property had been exclusively subjected to the
burden of the poor-rates. The 43d. Elizabeth required
that the rate should be on property visible and produc-
tive, and in the parish in which the owner resided. That
condition could not exist with personal property, and
therefore the Legislature excluded personal property
from contributing to the relief of the poor. It was true
that stook-in-trade had been deemed liable for poor-rate—
(" Hear," from Mr. Henley)—but, practically, it had
never been rated, and an annual Act was now passed to
exempt it. Ott this subject he would read what was
stated in the report on local taxation, laid on the table
in 1844. It stated that stock-in-trade had been held
liable only on the supposition that it was visible and pro-
ductive. With: regard to the second objection, if the
impossibility of rating personal property should lead to
a national rate, no benefit would be conferred on the
agricultural interest; and that he conceived to be
the great:objection to the plan proposed by the Honour-
able Member for Bucks last year. In alluding to the
increased burdens imposed by Act of Parliament on
real property, and levied as poor-rate, the Hon. Dlember
for Bucks had omitted one important fact, and that was
the growing diminution of these burdens on the land.—
(Hear, hear.) Looking to the figures only, there ap-
deued increased burdens; but what were the facts? Ile

Mr. DISRAELI—Not the expense of the casual poor
of Ireland.—(Laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—There could be nothing more ob-
jectionable tha❑ to transfer the relief of the casual poor
to the public treasury. Those who looked to the reports
of the Poor-law Board were aware that there was no end
to the examinations that took place to keep down this
branch of poor-law expenditure; but if the expense was
transferred to the public treasury, there would be an
end to the reductions that had taken place. He denied
that anything had ever fallen from his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to justify the
Hon. Member for Bucks in saying that the surplus, if
any, f et the year would bo available fir carrying out bis
proposition for the relief of the casual poor. But sup-
posing a surplus was available, it would neither be just
❑or reasonable, without taking a comprehensive view of
the interests of the country, to anticipate the appropria-
tion of that surplus, or to pledge the House to apply it
to the particular object sought by the Hon. Member,
without considering how far it would really relieve the
agricultural interest. He hoped the House was not pre-
pared, when the amount of the surplus was yet uncer-
tain—(` ar" from Colonel Sibthorp)—to make any
appropriation of it. Supposing the sums which
the lion. Member wished to transfer to amount
t) 2,200,0001., it was desirable to know to what
extent this relief would benefit the agriculturists of
England. Of that sum only about 1,500,000/. was ap-
plicable to England. He could not understand what ad-
vantage would be gained by the agricultural interest by
the taking off their share of the above taxation when it
was plain they would lose the benefit of any other re-
duction that might be gained by a different application of
the surplus or have to pay their quota of any new tax
that might be found necessary.—(Hear.) He believed
the actual amount t ) the agriculturist by the reduction
proposed would not exceed 31. or 41 in the pound, and
he did not think they would be very thankful to the
Honourable Member for such an amount of relief. He
did not know that he differed from the Hon. Member
when he said, speaking of the incidence of taxation on
land, that there was a community of interest between
landowners and occupiers. On the point he would
refer the House to a passage in the report of the Lords'
Committee on the burdens on land. In that report it
was stated that all fixed charges, such as tithes, were to
be considered as a burden on the owner, but that fluc-
tuating charges during the tenant's holding were to
bo considered as charges on the tenant, which
he had an interest in diminishing, his rent being
fixed. The moment, however, the tenant's occupation
ceased, a new bargain was made, and the owner in-
creased his rent in proportion to the diminution of the
charges on the tenant. In that case the landowner got
the benefit in the shape of an increased rent. The
Hon. Gentleman had said that his proposals were re-
commended to the House by their justice. But he (Sir
G. Grey) did not think the Hon. Gentleman had este
blished that proposition. lie had shown that the charges
in questio❑ had been assessed ever since the passing of
the 43t1 of Elisabeth ; and he had also endeavoured to
show that the ground on which the Hon. Gentleman
had claimed that concession to the landed interest—
namely, the abolition of the protective system—was a
ground which would equally apply to other branches of
national industry to which the Hon. Gentleman did not
propose to extend a similar favour. The Hon. Gentle-
man had said that his scheme was a practicable one.
But he (Sir G. Grey) did not consider that it was prac-
ticable to the extent which the lion. Gentleman pro-
posed, because it would require a larger surplus of re-
venue at the end of the financial year than
we were likely to have according to any cal-
culation that had yet been made. It would at the
same time operate unjustly to other classes of the
community, inasmuch as it would deprive them of any
benefit which they might derive from a different em-
ployment of whatever surplus revenue might exist. He
thought, also, that it would be unsafe, in many of its
details, inasmuch as it would lead to extravagant expen-
diture by transferring a variety of charges from the
local to the general taxation of the country. The Hon.
Gentleman had laid that proposal before the House as
one only of a series of measures which he wished to in-
troduce; but the House ought to be cautious how it
adopted the first of that series, until the Hon. Gentleman
should have told them what were the measures which
were to follow, and where the money was to come from
which was to give relief to the agricultural classes.
They ought not to adopt that first proposal until they
knew to what it was to lead, or where the Hon. Gentle-
man would invite them to follow. The Hon. Gentleman
had said—and he (Sir G. Grey) believed truly—that he
was not in the habit of making statements in the House
which he did not make out of it. The Hon. Gentleman
had certainly been very unreserved in his communications
at 'public meetings in the country during the late re-
cess; and they were not altogether in the dark with re-
spect to the next proposal which the Honourable Gen-
tleman would probably make. He held in his hand
what he believed to be a revised and authentic copy of a
speech delivered by the Honourable Gentleman at the
old baronial hall of Castle Headinghare, in Essex,

" I can't accept office, because if I do my power with the
people is gone—l shall no longer have that power either
in the House or the country which I now have—my accept-
ance of office will altogether deprive me of that confi-
dence which I now enjoy."—(llear. hear.) That was
in reality a great disadvantage to the a;ricultural in-
terest, because it enabled the Noble Lord, who traded
upon the opinions that from time to timo filtered
through the Manchester Chamber, to say that ho main-
tained the Government and the principles of the Consti-
tution, whilst he was not encumbered with any of those
inconvenient sentiments which occasionally fell from the
[lon. Member fir the West Riding, although they were
not given utterance to in such unmistakeable language
in that House as elsewhere.—(Hear, hear.) But the
[lon. Member f n. the West Riding showed great saga-
city in his commercial manner of handling the question.
He (Sir J. Tyrell) was at first not aware, that when the
Hon. Gentleman declined to accept office, he was in re-
ceipt of a reward of 70,000/.. but seeing that he pocketed
the dividends arising from that sum, he a hnittt d that
the least thing he could do was to acknowledge it in the
way he did.—(Hoer.) Af. er alluding, amidst considerable
impatience to the inconsistency of the views enunciated
at the late Russian loan meeting with the principles of
free trade, the Hon. Baronet proceeded to complain that
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary
of the Home Department, on the present occasion, was a
most unsatisf tctory reply to the address of the Hon.
Member for Bucks. One part of it consisted of a reply
to a speech delivered by the Hon. Member for Bucking-
hamshire last year; another part consisted of the re-
production of the leader in that day's Morning Chroni-
cle—(Laughter)—and the remaining portion alone was
devoted to the address of his lion. Friend that evening.
The Right Hon. Baronet had given the agriculturists
credit for possessing indomitable energy and perseve-
rance; and, by Heavens! they would /160 those quali-
ties to obtain that justice to which they felt themselves
entitled.—(llear.)
Mr. I.IO3HOUSE considered the speech which had
just been delivered. as well as that of the Honour-

Mr. SEYMER, adverting to the indisposition of
Members on the Ministerial aide to admit that agricul-
ture was in a depressed state, asked whether farmers
must break windows to show that they were distressed,
or talk treason to manifest their dissatisfaction ? The
farmers would take neither of those courses, for they
were proverbially a loyal body. But in the middle of
the nineteenth century loyalty was not likely to assume
a very romantic character. When a class found itself
descending in the social scale the enthusiasm of its
I)yalty was likely to suffer some abatement. This was
emphatically a farmer's question, and he represented
the opinions of his constituents in advocating the mo-
tion. The Honourable Member for Manchester would,
perhaps, say that ho (Mr. Seymer) represented only
6,000 stupid farmers, whilst he himself represented
12,000 enlightened manufacturers. But in the
United States the case was reversed, for there
the manufacturers were in favour of protection,
whilst the farmers wanted free trade. It was
not at all clear to his mind that the cotton spinners
had not made a bad'speculation in their free-trade move-
ment. On the other side of the Atlantic the same skill
and energy on which the cotton spinners here relied,
with coal and iron, and cotton grown on the spot, were
to be found. With cheap labour the United Stites would
undersell the cotton spinners of this country, wha would
then be very glad, though too late, to have protection

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 20, 1850

- -----
and by his successor since, how could any man of ordie
nary capacity and of common felling dare to get up and
demand the restoration of a system which had entailed
upon our poorer population such awful consequences as
the re tarns demonstrated?—(hear, hear.) The Lion.
Gentleman must n t put his proposition as in some sense
a compensation for what the agricultural classes lust in
1546. The question was, whether his proposition was
in itself just and reasonable.—(hear, he a-.) The people
never acquiesced in that corn-law; there was a Member
present who could recollect, probably, bow he had to
make his way to the House through military and
police in 1815, when that law was being r a •sed, and
it was said that one gentleman dated his eonversion
from a severe wound he received while guarding the
llieuse.—(Laughter.) There were heads which could
only be penetrated by arguments strongly enforced.—
(" Oh, oh !") The Hon. Gentleman wanted to make out
that ... the agricultural interest" was concerned in this
question, and he said that the interest of the landlord
and that of the t mare must now bo considered as or e.
Ile and his friends played fast and loose about
Vila; once. " the agricultural interest" was said to mean almost no-
body but tenant-du-triers —now it was the owners of real
property that were to be benyfited. Perhaps a man
would be claimed as belonging to the " egriculrurel in-
terest" nrxt if he lived in the Haymarket or Lincoln's
Inn-fie!ds.—( ' Oh, oh!") The result of the lion. lfetn-
ber's proposal ea.= to be to transfer 2,000,0004 of taxa-
tion now collected from land and buildings to the general
taxation of the country, much the largest portion of
which came from the great body of the people, and was
paid in taxes upon articles they consumed ; and so, if
(As he said) the 2,000,0001. formed a burden upon land,
the occupiers of the soil were t) bo able to add thus
much to the rental if the proprietors.—(" Oh, oh !")
But was not the time gone by when Parliament would
listen to proposals for removing taxes from property and
placing them upon industry and consumption?— (Hear,
hear.) Taxes had now been taken off which certainly
in times of peace could never, again be imposed. Im-
posts upon imposts, and taxes upon consumption, had
been found to be not only ni.t the most produo:ive, but
to be destructive of the comforts of the people.—(liear.)
The question was not between the land and the towns,
for property in the latter would be at least equally ree
lieved by this scheme; but the question was between the
groat owners el property and those who hard been called
the " Have-nothings," and who with this system of legis-
lating would have nothing to the end of time.—(Cries .._
if " Oh, oh I") He would ask Hon. Members opposite,
" In what way do you intend to satisfy the clamour you
excited or participated in during the recess ?'
(Cheers and counter-cheers.) Oh ! ho (Mr. Bright)
vs as not " the farmer's friend "—(lronical cheers)—he
made no pretensions to the character, though in that
House and out of it he would stand up for whatever was
just to the termer.—(Cries of " Oh, oh!" from the Pro-
tectionists.) But he would not come to that Louse,
after exciting clamour in the country on the ground
that he was about to relieve the farming and occupying
classes, and make a proposition which a child of five
years old almost could discover had no reference to the
ire-Tests of the occupier, but was solely directed to
supporting the interests of the landlord.—( H ear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) stated 45
per cent. of the whole poor-rate was all that was paid
by the land, the whole of which was not paid by agri-
cultural land ; so that all the relief the Honourable
Gentleman's (Mr. Disraelea) proposition could give
would be 45 per cent. to landlords, tenants, and ocou-
piers. He should like to have it defined how much
of that would remain in the pockets of the occupying
tenants in the farming districts.—(Hear, hear.) But the
Chancellor of the Exchequer must continue on the
farmer the taxes on tea, sugar, coffee, tobacco, wine,
spirits, and malt, if the series of propositions the Hon.
Gentleman threatened them with should be successful,
and the great burden of the rates were to be trans-
ferred from real property to industry and articles of
consumption. The farmers were having their eyes
oreaed by these discussions.—(Hear.) A few days ago
there had been a proposition for a County-rates Bill, but
it had met with no favour from II in. Gentlemen oppc-
site.—(" Oh, oh.") In a short time it would be his duty to
ask the House for the abolition or modification of the
law which encouraged the preservation of game.—
(Ironical cheering.) It would then be seen if those who
called themselves the farmers' friends would bo ready to
apply that great and just principle to a prat tical griev-
ance which pressed more heavily on the farmers than the
poor-law union.—(" Oh, oh.") He should be delighted,
too, if the farmers' friends gave a hearty support to the
Tenants' Compensation Bill. If landlords were wise
they would take another course. He was sorry, for
more reasons than one, he was not a landed proprietor.
It he was to would say to his landed brethren, that if
trade was prosperous and manufactures increasing—if
employment was more permanent and became at once
steady and remunerative to V a labourer—if the list
of criminals was annually decreasing—if the return of the
Poor-law Commissioners showed that thousands and
thousands of men, womer, and children had been
dragged out of the mire of pauperism, arid placed in an
independent and comfortable position, and if all those
advantages could be presumed t.) flow from the free-
trade policy, as I e verily believed, then the position of
a landed proprietor in England was the most fortunate
and happiest in the country, for as trade exteneed so
would comp, tition increase for land, for agricultural, ma-
nufacturing, and building purposes, as well as for et joy-
ment and pleasure, and while the popul Lion improved,
how great would be his security for the enjoyment of
the possessions with which Providence had blessed him 1
—(Cries of " Oft, oh!") To come to the House and
make an appeal for compel, anon on account of the
4b,lition of the corn-laws was wt.a. they would not have
dove if they had known wl at was best f,r their it t rests.
—(" Oh, oh!") Other trades »odd now come and speak
of depreciation of capital, which had never sc ught for
c.mpen?a ion before. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had
ruled in that House in past times with undisputed away,
Uu their county hustings they had t .1d the tarmers that
they went to Parliament to ina;ntain agrieu!tural pros-
perity and r, muntratirig prices of c,)rf . lie begge lof
thew , ;f they v. ore sensinle men, to get tid ~f a:1 th,se
delusions—(" Oh, oh!")—and nut t t lit their children
and great grandchildr, I, read, as read they would, with
astonishment the speeches they had nride.—(Li)ud
cheers and cries of " Oh, oh.") lle was convinced the
proposition before them had nut in the slightest degree
any element of bete fit, improvement, or even of restitu-
tion to the tenant-farmer, and he would not be a party
to a transfer of the taxation on a class not so heavily
taxed as in other countries, or to a course which would
reverse the policy they had been pursuing for the last
seven years, with cons( quer cea, as he believed, most ad-
rantageous to our population and tending t) increase the
value of every institution in` the kingdom.—(llear.)
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said it would require grit e'er
powers of mystification than those of the lion. Gs ntle-
man (Mr. Bright), or even the Honourable Gentleman
who had introduced the debate, to persuade the farmers
they were not suffering distress. The Honourable
Gentleman was greatly mistaken if he supposed
he (Mr. Drummond) had ever, directly or indirectly,
i ncouraged the farmers to hope for a reversal
of the past policy et the House. Many 3 ears since ho
I ad de dared, the moment peace was established it would
be impossible t) keep up prices at a higher average than
prices on the continent. But, though the farmers felt
themselves deeply aggrieved, he had never used his little
influence t) excite them. They felt they had been be-
trayed by the men in whom they trusted, and they had
felt deeply the injustice ef being made the means of ele-
vating a faction into power, who then kicked down the
useless marchepied. They called conduct of that sort
treachery—(lh ar, bear)—and I e heard their language
with regret ; and while many of those to whom it efts
applied were his friends:, he could not but be sorry t 9
see a body of able men condemned, however justly,
to political infamy.--(Hear, hear.) By their acts
those who had heavy fines fur church lands, within
two years of that change, had teen distinctly de -
frauded.—(Chcers.) This was not the first time largo
bodies of the people had come to the doors of the House
as suppliants proclaiming their distress, but it certainly
was the first time, to his knowledge, that they had
been treated with indifference—(Cheers)—and their
statements of distress distinctly contradicted, as if they
were not the only judges of the fait.—(Chi arc.) He
could not help c entraeting the way in which the manu-
facturing and trading interests were treated when they
were whining suppliants.—(Loud cheers.) Had they
been sneered at or mocked? Had they been laughed
at for not understanding chymittry ?—(CI sere.) The
cournel cf the Hon. Membi r for the West Biding
amounted to this—that the present race of farmers
should try agricultural experiments, that they should
; ass into the workhouse, and then le, a happier and
more enlightened lct of men succeed them.—(Laughter.)
But was it not notorious that not a single English
manufacturer had ever made a single useful disoovery
in the arts?—(Cheers and laughter.) They lal,to be
sure the Manchester shool, with its peculiar doctrines.
Did any one ever hear of a Lavoisier or a Fourcroy in
Manches er?— (Laughter.) Could they quote the name of
one n.aeufacturer who had written on tie scientific
principles of his business?—(Hear.) No; it was notori-
ous to this day these Mancerster manufacturers knew
no more of the chemical nature if their dyes and
pigments than the blocks on which they were printed.
—(Loud cheers and laughter.) Had not the House
taken pity on their dense stupidity and vulgarity when
they confessed that nothing but the cheapness of their
wares enabled them to find a market, for that there was
not a man in Europe who would not prefer the better
taste and more beautiful manufacture of France, or even
of the Chinese ?—(Cheers and laughter.) In mercy to
them the House established a school of design—(Hear,
hear)—but so little had they been able to profit by it
that the last report stated they drew as bad as ever.—
(Laughter.) What he always said was, that free trade
involved, not merely a class question but a national
question, and that the real matter at issue was not how
to have corn cheap, but how to preserve equality of prices
during years to come.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it would
be found, on reference to the House if Lords' report,
that in Datezic, the port through which a greater
ernoure of corn passed than rely other, there I ail been
the greatest ameunt of fluctuation. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had given a most satisfactory account of
trade and manufacture, but he had not stated how much
we had paid for it.— (Hear, hear.) It was forgotten that
by their system the help had been destroyed, and that
they had create I the distress in the north-west of Scot-
land, and ha'l aggravated it in the nortlewed of Ireland;
that they had Oestroyed half the value of the timber
of England, half 0 e value of bark, and that now they
ha I destroi ed ore-half of the capital of all the tenant-
farmers in the country, for they had reduced wheat from
80s. to 40s. a quarter. Thu necessary consequence was
that every tenant who had been farming with borrowed
capital must fail, and every landed estate that was
mortgaged must be sold.—(Hear, hear.) This was the
end at which lion. Gentlemen opposite had been driving,
and why, when they had accomplished their object, did
they not 'admit it? He would venture to say that the
amount of property that had been destroyed by their
plic, was at least Equal to that which they said it had
increased. He contended that the system supported by
lion. Gentlemen opposite bad been a system of class

able Member for East Lothian (Hr. Charteris) to
b, singularly ilogical. He went along with these
gentlemen when they asserted the inequality of the
local taxation of the country, and also when they main-
tained that land and real property were burdened t,
greater exteet than nay other species of property; but
ho de lied that a re-isteblishment of the mu sh-heleuherl
Act, the 43d of Elizabeth, would remedy the evil—the
inequalities which existed under that Act being altneet
as great as those which existed at present.—(Hear,
hoar.) Neither could ho imagine that the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Buckinghamshire was at all
calculated to mend the matter.—(Hear, hear.) That
Hon. Member proposed that from 12,000,0001, of local
taxation they should deduct 2,000,0001., and leave the
other 10,000,0001. to be assessed iu the same unequal
manner as at present. He (Mr. Ilobhouse) confessed
he could not see much relict in that. He feared, in-
deed, that it was impossible from the nature of things
to assess property with perfect ruelity under any sys-
tem whatever, and that it was necessary to overlook
some inconsistencies fur the sake of the general good.
The Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Tyrell) had attributed the
reducCen in the peo--law expenditure to the diminution
which had occurred in the cost of provisions; but, it
the Iloa. B aronet would take the trouble to consult
the last report of the Poor-law Beard, he would find
that there was also a conliderable diminution of the
number cf paupers.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Member for Buckinghamshire had claimed a certain
amount of exemption for the agriculturists, on the
ground of the peculiar taxation to which they were ex-
posed. The fact was, however, that upon this very plea
they had been relieved from 6,000,000/. of taxation since
1815.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member had also said
that the existing distress among the agricultural classes
had beer strangely coincident with the recent changes
in our commercial legislation, He (Mr. Hobhouse) did
not deny that it had been so; but he asked the agricul-
turists, in a spirit of perfect fairness, whether an equal
amount of distress had not often occurred during the
period of protection?—(Hear, hear.) Believing that t'e
proposal of the lion. Gentleman would tend to the ad-
valtage of the landlord alone, and not to that of the te-
nant or labourer, and being confident that it would re-
mere none of the inequalities complains I of, he should,
as the representative of the capital of an important agri-
cultural district, vote against it without the slightest dis-
trust or hesitation.—(Hear.)
Lord J. MANNERS said, that because the Hon.
Gentleman did not conceive this measure calculated to
remove a'l the distress complained of, that was no re:-
son why he should not assent to it as calculated to re-
move a portion of that distress. Until he heard are
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite he had
imagined that no man who admitted the distress of the
agricultural interest—and who was there in the House
that did not admit it?—would refuse to adopt the rea-
sonable and practicable proposition of his lion. Friend,
exempt as that proposition was from any tendency to
inflict injustice upon any class.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman indeed seemed disposed to gloss
over the existence of that distress by certain assump-
tions as to the diminution of pauperism and of crime;
but the test he suggested seemed of a rather fallacious
character. The Right Hon. Gentleman, for example,
contrasted the stale of crime in 1848, the exceptional
year of manufacturing distress, with the state of crime
in 1849, a year—he feared not the exceptional year —of
agricultural distress. Now, the logical inference to be
drawn, if any were to b 3 drawn at all from this compari-
son, was, that the agricultural community under suffer-
ing and privation was less turbulent and less disposed
to crime than the manufacturing populations.—(Hear.)
The Right Hon. Baronet further argued that pau-
perism haddimiuished, yet the last returns presented to
the House showed the Poor-law Commissioners painting
in very gloomy colours the presort condition and future
condition of the agricultural labourers. The Right
Hon. Barone: seamed to say that in the northern
counties of England agricultural distress was compara-
tive unknown; now he imagined that Durham ssas an
agricultural county. [Sir G. GREY—No; it is a mining
county.] And in that county he found a masked in-
crease of pauperism.—(Hear, hear.) The Right lion.
Baronet seemed much disposed to turn the attention
of the House to some other point, but the
practical manner in which the House should legislate on
this subject was to keep to one thin.; at a time, and ho
had heard no one argument on this occasion why the one
thing proposed by his Hoe. Friend should not be kept to
until it was effected. It had been urged as an objection
that in 1813 the poor-rate was higher than in 1849; but
it had been precisely one of the arguments against that
system in force in 1813, that cages ware constantly paid
out of the allowance fund. It was always put
forward that the Manchester gentlemen desired
no immunity for any class; he called upon the
Manchester gentlemen, then, to support this motion,
which went to remedy great national distress without in-
flicting any injustice upon any particular class of the
community, fir he conridered it no injustice that fund-
holders, mortgagee!, annuitants, and others who had
b, en hitherto ex, mpt from this most legitimate liability
should be brought within the :scope cf so essentially na-
tional a taxation.—(Boar, hear.) If the manufacturers
were sincere in their professiens, if they really desired
no immunity for any class', they must of necessity vote
with his Hon. Friend. All that was proposed was to
carry out the principle laid down in 1845 by the Right
Hon. Member for Tam worth, that property, of whatever
description, personal alike with real, ought to bear its
fair proportion of local taxation, so that the burden
might be justly distributed.-(Hear, hear.) They were
seeking to carry out this principle in no spirit of injus-
tice to any particular class, in no spirit of hostility to
the Government, but in a spi:it which should command
for the resolution of his Hon. Friend the sympathy and
approbation cf all candid and impartial men.—(flesr,
hear.) It was not meant for a moment that the rest,-
lotion was proposed as representing the full debt of
justice due to the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.)
All that was contemplated by it was, the mitigation
of the great and grievous injustice which now op-
pressed that interest with most unequal burdens.—
(Hear, hi ac.) As an example of this, he would men-
tion that in a manufacturing township near Leicester,
composed of 978 inhabitants, of whom not above 100
were engaged in agriculture, there was a farm of 241
acres, which contributed to the poor-rates of the parish,
in six years, no less a sum than 6151. 145., or more
than 100 per annum, being at the rut s of Bs. Gd. per
annum per acre, the rate being applied to the relief, not
of the 100 agriculturists, but to the relief of the whole
population. Casting himself across the Channel, he saw
the agricultural interest in a most oppressed condition
owing, in a very great measure, to unequal burdens.
Now, his lion. Friend's proposition would relieve agri-
culture in Ireland to the enormous extent of 500,0001,
per annum. Year after year the English Members of
that House bad been called upon for large payments to
enable the Irish poor-law to work; and year after ye it
the same demand would be renewed unless the views of
his Honourable Friend were adopted. Most heartily
therefore, as an English Member, del he support these
views, because lie conssidero l them calculated to re-
lieve agricultural burdens, and to extend agricultural
employment.—(Hear, hear.) A good deal tad !Ace
said about the casual poor, or what we commonly call in
England" vagrants." He particula-ly desired to know
how much longer these vagrants, making their way about
the country, were t) be saddled on the funds of the
parish in which the relieving officer happened to reside
instead of upon the funds of the union.—(Haar.) Cap-
tain Robertson, in his most able report, insisted upon
the absolute necessity of action upon this subject. The
Noble Lord said, in conclusion, he supported, and with-
out any misgivings of the future result, the course taken
by his lion. Friend, because it was the course of honour
and of justice, because ho believed it to be practicable,
and because he was convine4d that, by one common
justice, it would redress the common injustice which had
been inflicted on the agriculture of the United King-
dom.—(Hear,)

Mr. BRIGHT said, that certainly the spech of the
Honourable Member fur Buckinghamshire was of a
somewhat more practical charweer than usual, with lc as
tendency to mystify the House and the country; but
still he could not refrain from expressing his strong behof
that both the House and the country would soon dis-
cover that the grounds on which the Honourable Gentle-
man based his proposition were altogether untenable.
The Honourable Gentleman's speech was based ch'efly
on the fact which many gentlemen seemed disposed to
admit, without question, that there prevailed through.
out the country a very alarming amount of agricu:torat
distress, and that in some way or other this proposition
was intended as a compensation for the loss of the corn-
law; and that, while giving great advantage to the class
which the Honourable Gentleman peculiarly advocated,
it would not operate unjustly upon the other classes of
the community. He (Mr. Bright) was not disposed to
admit without question that there existed this great
agricultural distress that had been talked of. He him-
self knew, and ho was sure there was scarcely a gentle-
man in the House who did not know, that there were
cases of tenant-farmers who during this very year
were carrying on their agricultural operations,
not only not with a loss, but absolutely with a
profit.—(Laughter, and cries of " No, no!" from
the Protectionists.) The Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Disraeli), who had not stated one well-authenticated
case in which the fee of land had been depre-
ciated in value, or the rent permanently lowered, said
that the farmers, with 300,000,0001. engaged in the cul-
tivation of the soil, were cultivating it without profit,
and that the fee of the land had lessened in value. He
(Mr. Bright) was disposed for the most part to dispute
it; but, admitting it, for the sake of argument, had the
llon. Member never cast his eye over the condition of
other kinds of property during the last four years—the
condition of the mining districts, the iron manufacturing
interest, the condition of the owners of mills in all our
great staple manufactures? Had he inquired whether
the selling price of houses in towns was as high now, or
had been for the last three years,
as it was previously?
Had he never cast his eye over the share list? and, with
regard to the railway interest, let him remember that
the
through
the poor-rates of the 3,000 parishes in England
which railways passed 'ere but 800,000/.,
and
rail-
ways pa'd 250,000/. of it.—(flear, hear.) Thu 11. n.
lawG e n
rt et mu
ranns
forit wouldin')re rge icNe' en tt
o op
or
hoafdthneottraosukbelle
sbaeicda because
e-
pare them; but neither he nor any of his friends were
likely ever at any future time to more for returns cf
poor-rate with tho view of proving the distress of the
country, and thereupon basing any application ti the
House for a return to th© protective system, or a
transfer of rates from what he called real property to
the ordinary taxation of the kingdom.—(Hear, hear.)
The last speaker, indeed, doubted whether the Home
Secretary was right as to pauperism and crime, and
whether the price of food had so much ieflueece in the
matter; but he would find that the commitments in
England rose from 20,600 in 1836, when prices were low,
to 32,000 in 1842, which was the termination ef souse
years of high prices, and after that (with falling prices
of food) declined again till the fall was checked in 1847,
when the price of food was such as " to remunerate the
farmers and landed proprietorz.'—(" Ohl") In the f.tce
of the facts brought forward by the Right Hon. Baronet
the Member for Ripon (Sir. J. Graham) when in office, '