The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-14 00:00:00

S %I-ALL DEBTS BILL.

Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite whether the Bill introduced relative to the recovery
of small debts, by the Hon. Member for Chester, was brought in
with the sanction of the Government ?

Sir J. GRAHAM said, so far from it, that the Hon.
Member for Chester had brought in his Bill as embcdying a
rival scheme to the measure introduced by her Majesty's
Government.

STATE OF IRELAND.

Lord J. RUSSELL than rose, pursuant to notice, to bring
forward his motion for a Committee of the whole House to
take into consideration the state of Ireland. He said he felt
deeply how much he stood in need of the indulgence
of the House in the performance of the ardu :us task
which he had undertaken. He would not tres-
pass further upon their indulgence, by making any
apology for taking that task upon himself ; nor, however he
might feel his own inability for such a task, could he for a
moment doubt that it was right that the Huse of Com-
mons of the United Kingdom should make inquiry into the
condition of the kingdom of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) They
had before them, notwithstanding the somewhat fal-
lacious returns presented by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, the notorious fact that Ireland was filled with troops,
and that the barracks in which these troops were posted had
been fortified. They had heard, too, that morning, of a regi-
ment of infantry being drawn up in the yard of the Castle of
Dublin—that preparations had been made as if the
Government were in instant expectation of a civil
war, and that the country was occupied and not go-
verned by those who now held the reins of power.
He said, and he said it with consideration, that Ireland was not
governed as it ought to be. The Government of this country
should be a government of peace, but the present Government
of Ireland was a government of force. The King of the French
had told the people of that country that Algeria would soon be
reduced to a government of peace.—( Hear.) Her Majesty
had told her people the something, and yet what was the case?
Why the military were circulating through the whole
of Ireland, while it was proclaimed that peace was ex-
isting in the United Kingdom. Was it not curious
that it should now present an appearance utterly at variance
with true government ?—( Hear, hear.) We have received
to-day an account, most extraordinary it was, that the man
upon whom the Irish people looked, and from whom they
had received, or by whose instrumentality they had
received, Catholic Emancipation—( Cries of " Hear, hear")—
was it not curious that that man should have been found
guilty of a conspiracy, and would, probably, by the Judges of
Ireland be condemned to imprisonment ?—( Hear, hear.) Did
the House believe, if that circumstance took place, that it
would be a guarantee for the peace of Ireland ?—( Great cheer-
ing.) He could see no hope for the prosperity or the future
interest of Ireland in the adoption of such a course. They
ought to insure their affections, and by that means they
would insure peace.—( Hear, hear, and great cheering.)
The consideration of this subject had led him' to venture to
propose a question to the nouse, in the shape which he would
ultimately state. It had led him to consider the question of the
whole condition of Ireland, and he had shaped his question ex-
pressly for that purpose. He was not about to recur to the
state of Ireland during the last year, but he wished to look upon
the situation of that country for some time past. He would
take it tor granted that it was the wish of the House
that the maintenance of the union should be preserved ; but,
consistent with that maintenance, he trusted that the
House would consider it was bound to do that country justice.
Assuming such to be the opinion of the House, he would ask
whether the engagements which had been entered into at she
time of the union had been all fulfilled, either with regard to
existing laws, or to the passing of future laws for the improve-
ment of Ireland ?—(Cheers. ) And if they gad not, he
would ask the House to go with him into Committee, in
order to consider the measures which ought to be adopted
to reconcile the people of Ireland to our rule —( Cheers.) He
would advert to the address which had been presented by both
Houses of Parliament to his Majesty George the Third, in the
year 1799, just before the union. In that address both
Houses had stated that it was their firm persuasion that
a complete and entire union between Great Britain
and Ireland, upon equal and liberal principles, founded upon a
similarity of laws and of constitution, would conduce tothe mutual
interest and security of the two countries, and to the allaying
of those discontents which had unhappily existed in Ireland—
would afford the means of opposing the attempts of the foreign
enemy, and would conduce to the stability of the empire.
The two Houses had not been content with that
declaration, they had further declared that in their opinion it
would be for the real interest both of Great Britain and !reland
that the principle of the union should be a common enjoyment
by both countries equally of the blessings of the Constitution.—
( Cheers.) Now be would ask whether the laws
proposed for the two countries had been founded
upon equal and liberal principles—( Cheering)—if the
laws which had been passed since the union had ex-
tended fully the blessings of the Constitution to Ireland—
(Cheers)—if Ireland was bound to us by a sense of mutual
affection and interest—(Cheers)—and if the people of Ire-
land were united to us by a full enjoyment of the blessings
of the Constitution ?—( Hear, hear, and loud cheering).
These expressions of their sentiments had not been
confined to the address which had been presented
by the two Houses of Parliament. They had received
the sanction of Mr. Pitt, the Prime Minister of the
Crown, when he introduced that measure into the House.
In opposition to those who said that Ireland would be subject
to a foreign yoke, he asked whether a union, entered into
with the free consent of both countries, and upon just
and equal terms, could be branded as subjecting Ireland
to a foreign yoke? Was it not a free and voluntary association
of two countries for the common benefit of both, in which
each would have its proportionate weight of importance, which
would secure equal laws, reciprocal affections, and which would
render them both invincible? (The Noble Lord here quoted
the passage of the Roman poet, but made a mistake in the last
word, which was corrected by Sir James Graham.) He was
glad that the Right Honourable Gentleman recollected the
line.—( Cheers, and laughter.) He hoped he would recollect
the sentiment.—(L, ud cheers.) At the same time there
were given assurances, not by the positive declaration of the
Ministers of the Crown, yet by their adherence, that the Roman
Catholics would be more likely to enjoy the rights of British sub-
jects under the union than it Ireland continued to have a separate
Parliament. Lord Sidmouth declared such an opinion , but
those hopes were destined to be disappointed. But, before he
entered upon that subject, he wished to call the attention of
the House to another part of the law and constitution
of England, namely, the administration of justice. It
might be said that the laws were the same in both
countries. Nominally, the Irish had the same laws, and
trial by jury existed in both countries ; but was it so in fact?
That it was not so was made matter of perpetual complaint in
Ireland, and more than once in that House. On one occasion a
Member of that House, who in those days was accustomed to
represent, with great force and eloquence, the grievances of
those who were oppressed, whether in Europe or America, whe-
white or black—he meant Lord Brougham—stated in that
House, in the year 1823, in bringing forward a petition
complaining of grievances that "the laws of England
esteemed all men. It was sufficient to be born within the
King's allegiance to be entitled to all the rights any subject of
the land enjoyed. None were disqualified, there was no dis-
tinction between a natural-born subject and an alien. Such
was the liberality of the system in times called barbarous,
that even if a man was an alien born, he was not
deprived of the protection of the law. In Ireland the law
holds an opposite doctrine. The sect to which a man belonged
juined to his religious opinions, and the forms in which he
worshipped his Creator, were reasons for his not enjoying the
sante privileges as his fellows. Such a system was most cruel
and unjust."—( Cheers.) Such was the statement of Mr.
Brougham, in those days when Mr. Brougham was the advo-
cate of the oppressed.—(Cheers and laughter.) Was that the
statement of a man ignorant of the state of Ireland ? The same

facts were stated in most posverfullanguage by Sir M. O'Legue
lin. in his evidence before the House of Lords, in 1839•
said he had been in the habit for nineteen years of attending
the Munster circuit. On that circuit it was the custom of the
ices
Crown to set aside from the jury all Roman Cad' ih
reld all liberal Protestants ; and he stated it or
belief that this practice saes carried to a (treater i•xtert , tde
circuits He stated one case of this practice occu ring as late
as the year 1834, when Lord Wellesley was Lord-Lirutenan%
and w' en Mr. 131ackburne, the present Master of the iio ls. woo
the Attorney-General. He stated 'hat in one case, net a pohnea_
case, 43 persons had been set aside, and that 36 of thoie yr"
Roman Catholics, and seven of them were Protestants.
Amongst them were magistrates and leaseholders, and persons
of considerable property. He said that the practice was
well known, and constantly followed, this men of liberal 00.
nions, whether Roman Catholics or Protestants, had ,cease!l
attending the ass zes. that they might not be present when stirl,l,°l
an insult was offered to them. Now, were these squat laws? 1111
that resemble a jury in Kent, Surrey. or Yorkshire:
Let him ( Lord John Russell) ask, after what he had stated,
whether the promises hels out by Mr. Pitt had been fulfilled
, ?
Were the laws equal—were they administered with impartial.,
—( Cheers. ) Was it not rattier what Mr. Brougham had,t,ra_.;
characterised a, the eistinctien of a sect and a party—of Deio
who called themselves Protestants, which, in fact, was n° Was
Ireland a political denomination ?—( Loud cheers.) .
ny
it not, in fact, a supremacy of political Protestants, corrur
lint
the sources of public justice and detrauding the people of
had been guaranteed them by the Constitution ?—( Hear' }late
And what was the effect of this ? He thought he could s it
w
it to thorn. Sir Michael O'Loghlin said, "in his ont"i(o.4neet,
was a system which was fraughtith the most injurious eui_ar
on the administration of justice in Irelsnd, disturbing 'Tit
peace, and depriving the people of the confidence they ought
to have in her institutions.", Now he (Lord J. Russell) Would
ask of the House, could it be otherwise—(Cheers)—or en
they wonder, if such was the ease, that in Ireland the rer_i,
classes of the people, rather than r, sort to the regular tribun
of the country, took any other course rather than go to th..:
for the settlement of their differences amongst thernsolve:-0,
even the wild means which revenge and the worst plit'ese
of our nature would prompt ?—( Hear, hear.) -1
bad feelings were prompted by the unfair advninistratia:
of justice, and were not so inherent in the Irish character ;
many persons wished to prove. He could vouch it, and in suPlinorf
of his opinion he would relate an anecdote, on the authority ,
Lord Donoughmore, which occurred at th t great Clare eleetioe_.
which, in fact, settled the question of Catholic Emancipatli
A big, brawny fellow came to the Committee to CO
that he had been insulted by a person. "Why," was the renlo
" cannot you take your own part ?" You are bigger than L,'!
mars who insulted you. Yes," said he, stretching forthooP'n.
brawny arm," I could soon have had satisfaction if I had ehbeen
to take it, but all violence and quarrelling has, fluid
forbidden by the Association, and, therefore, c-
ola°
not punish the fellow as he deserved." Now, if a by
thus showed obedience to the behests of an Association,
was it ? Because he had confidence in the Assoeiation---meo
knew the law which had gone forth had been framed bY, w
' °lo'
who had the same feeling and sympathies as himself, and
did not set up the tyranny of a sect as the measure of justice
—(Cheers.) This, then, was his first complaint, that from ,
th
period of the union up to the year 1835, there had been od 'told
partiality in the administration of justice. He might be,
that Lord Wellesley was an impartial Governor of Be',a-,ea
Ho admitted that he was, and that Lord Angle,Th
was the same. But it was the misfortune of both, that th°7,
they might have endeavoured they had, unhappily, failed Oriente,
rect the abuses in the Chief Secretary's Office.—( ritieich
and loud cheers.) There was the place in 7e'reel.
all bad political passions and prejudices een'iposa
It was not the fault of Lord Wellesley or Lord Ang-tioa
• that they did so. He would now proceed to another eue!.,..)
—the franchise of the people of Ireland.—(Hear, he''lo
And he knew that it might be objected,
that
it had been objected in considering the state of Ireland, b.na
they ought not to look to this question of political francbise*tbe
power, because it was said it that would not give bread to He
hungry, or employment to the unemployed.—(Cheers.)
tten,
did not admire or concur in the wisdom of such an se'''. „eh
He did not find any record in the history of England for
an assertion.—( Hear.) The benefits of a free constitute',
were the best works by which they could confer benefits 00c b
free country. In 1792 Mr. Pitt, in his celebrated sups
on the finances of the country, eulogised greatly
etry
principles of Adam Smith, and said that benefit to a CO'par,
was to be found in nothing but free institutions.—( 1-me
4 hear.) Mr. Fox, at a subsequent period, followed in the •
line of argument and assertedthat the true privileges of the Pet7tat
were to be found in free institutions. It was known,trea
when men had such institutiotis a greater stimulus was .-hest
to industry, and the poorest man vottld look urn the sic 00
with pleasure and satisfaction. Such were the priticiplese;ei
which these great men felt that the people ought to
ruck
the the Constitution of 1792, and was he now to be told that:
the
a constitution was a farce and that it ought not to exist a_i6csi
present moment.—( Hear.) lie would tell the present Ml°, pas
that the best course they could adopt with respect to Irelaaubtrb
to secure to every man the enjoyment of equal rights, by and
means they could alone teach them to appreciatee
0.)
bless the benefits of a free Constituiion.—( Hear, h
ens
In the year 1793. in a moment of alarm, the Irish parhaul
passed she measure whic-• they had before rejected, and 1-are
be
the right of voting to the forty-shilling freeholders. , the
franchise thus conferred became, in the hands of
landlords, a means for filling their estates with vr•
dependents. who were brought up to vote at elections. ton,
Dirigenan had foretold that sums a mode of carrying ele&eat
would recoil upon its inventors, and so indeed it did. _ere
abuses had arisen, and persons of every shape of politics wale
desirous of applying some remedy.—( Hear, hear.) I° the
year 1829 the Hight Honourable tsentleerian, after, in dea
Speech from the Throne, they had been recovemeni of
to agree to measures for the general settlement of the affitd: on
Ireland, had proposed a higher rate of franchise. He had gt.Yote
to Ireland what had been generally supposed at the, not
was a 10/. franchise, but which had Nimes' eh
to he in reality a 20/. franchise.—t, Hear, hear.) In"mui-se
as it was required that the person claiming the franc.' t„
should possess 101. over and above the usual proper I,
derived from his fr,-ehold or leasehold, as the e,as,ti
might be. In the Reform Act it had been intends
to reduce the franchise to 101.—(Cheers.) A Noble Lords
now a Secretary of State, had blamed him (Lord John Russel!)
for any defect which might have occurred in the Reform Bib,'
No doubt, he had trus'ed much to his Noble Friend Lori':
Duncannon, with whom he had consulted on '''„e
subject, and that Noble Lord had given it as his opinion,
~
that the object which they both of them desired would ".
accomplished thereby, but they had since found, that 1001
to the decision of the majority of the Irish Judges, they hoe
been in error in the construction which they had placed en
where, '_
clause.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman when he had pros
posed that change in the franchise, stated that he proposed t°Tnic
great facilities for the attainment of it—that a person elaiTibe
it had only to go before the assistant-barrister,
re-
claim were allowed there should be no appeal, but if it weresto,
jetted then the claimant might appeal to a Judge of of
But some years after, not content with the ditaltnu'l:nter-
the franchise which had taken place by the ' ot
retation put upon it by the judges of Irelan.„tell
content with the diminution in the number of voters
iII
had thereby taken place,—a Noble Lord opposite, not thenglet
the Government, though now sitting on the benches 014'1°Ft of
proposed a Bill to correct what he called the ec' 101
registration in Ireland.—( Loud cheers.) That Irish
was so contrived that by sending the claimant—the Pl°.,(ltrant.
voter—from one appeal to the other—( Hear, hear)--Y
miffing him to a great distance, through intricate no
sages and by costly doors, it discouraged
_nod
°„utrY to
from seeking the franchise, and those only who were fa‘attied
by the landed proprietors of the country would be e effect
to enjoy it.—( Cheers.) Such would be the .0 the
of that Bill. At that time, they, who Were
__'.ociog
Government said, that though Ireland was far from e"ilulans
all she ought to have by law, yet as there was a period
quillity, it wan most desirous to allow the wealth of the ea; wool'.
increase during that period, believing that angry Pa"`"bate, bc
be assuaged, and that animosities would be likely to a,. et of
not introducing any question likely to be the seu'l,,ee;oble
vexatious contest into this House ; but thel neees'
Lord refused to allow this.—( Cheers.) He thought 010
nary to press his Bill at all times.—(Cheers.) At apasons''''
and in all seasons—in season and out of seas they
(Cheers.) The last House of Commons decide icooo
would entertain that 13111. It was the opinion of ,% paate
Friend of his (Lord Morpeth)—and in mentioning nr' held
he would venture to say, that no man e `iris the
office in Ireland more desirous of
condition of the people of that country—(Loud e cbee deter-
was the opinion of Lord Morpeth that since the Hoare in jor
mined to entertain the question it would be nesessarY,tnitieo
tice to the people of Ireland, to propose some clearer otl'a lit!'
1 of the franchise, to relieve it from all dispute to nislite
gation to which, as it existed, it was subject ;
a large and extensive franchise, and to estabh." oat
that new franchise an important system of registra' 'O.: into s
was said to that ? Why, an indignant refusal to enter Word'
consideration of the subject was given. What
of the Right Hon. Baronet the present Secretary of by the
the Home Department ?—" am determined to stay! ion, be
Reform Bill.—(Cheers and laughter. ) Let it' Pr()"..sard thet
improved when necessary, but I am determined to Kea 1,60
franchise as it stands." Such were the opinions of thebetatO
Hon. Baronet. The Noble Lord opposite went further, sole
that
.Noble Lord accused his ( Lord John Hussell's3
Friend, Lord Morpeth, of bringing in his Bill eargal°s
were triale for
fall
t
colours, and false pretences. Such was the charge ma,'
Lord Morpeth. Was he justified in saying that?--sk yes'.
He (Lord John Russell) appealed to the silence for to led to
of her Majesty's Government.—( Cheers.) He aPP;tlre f
their silence, after having put that Bill forward as s Ting
party opposition.—(Lond cheers.) But had he not Queen _
than their silence to appeal to ? Yes, he had the :en, the.
saeech.—k Cheers. ) He had the specific declarati°", pose"'
Queen's name, advised by the whole of her MajestY of rests'
Cabinet, that it was not safe to adot nsYstent eate""'e
tration without, at the same time, adoptingp mote ,th these
franchise.—( Cheers.) Why, then, he looked back
and he
lights, and with the experience of their measure', pehl°
the his
looked back to 1840 and 1641, and he recalled to ht
Lord the time when he said that Lord Moreeth broug Boma°
Bill under false colours, and he said
Catholic Relief Bill, which was ,c 1 when thcatholig'
pass(
Roma and cf• insurrection was popular, by which Bill Rom ,se he
were made eligib:e to office, and seats in that ilet'red by the
referred to the measure which was brought forwa have bee
in
Noble Lord (Stanley), and he asked what would WhY, in
the consequence of that 13,11 if it had been carried,, been,
In
the tirst place if a Ministry such as the present "e",tiseed,__r
power, scarcely a Roman Catholic would have been
0 'merev`of
any office ; and in the second place, hardly
ornineeli of
would have been sent to that House except the_e,he
that the. e 000
Protestant landlords.—( Cheers.) The whole of `cheete.oi
1829, in fact, would have been rendered ineffectual.'( _ ;.tannetr
It would have been in effect a crafty and invidious in in sree
repealing that Bill—(Cheers.) The Noble Lorde ativise.detrt
dueing that Bill repeatedly, said that he had b , nit had Doeble
introduce it. He ( Lord John Russell) believed the Nor e
recommended by persons more crafty than
_...(C"-ussed
Lord, arid persons of a different nature. Lo ace
Such, then, was his answer to the Noble Lord, 7.. ch was his
Lord Morpeth of fighting under false colours.
_°;10 the loal'o,
c-mplaint with respect to the state of Ireland, as the Crniog
chise of that country. And when the :Minister ,ea
now in office, shrank from the responsibility of Ittaa.ste,..
doctrines which they avowed when in opposition, a
the, 'tight
did
the peace of Ireland by such flagrant violation
ples of justice, he must say that his confidence
were bothere
not encourage him in waiting until those measures h
belief teat sod
under discussion in that House. He had no a footto gO
was any intention on the part of Ministers tovglevtl
sit theta nog
fair franchise to the people of Ireland. Be ' nsider,
into a Committee of the whole House to ctohe
fra"e''t the
he
other important matters, the question of
hear 'aba- sub'
(Cries of " Hear, hear ")—and let then'. , on the
one
representatives of the people of Ireland would aY
under the by
f 11 the pr.
ject of the franchise. Let them beware lest,
_srepose.wer
of an extension of the franchise, the measOseerreased Pv of
Ministers, might not be a measure for giving nit eiect seen0 of
to the Protestant landlords of Ireland, in order
itt)s „onibe
_r
their choice, and net the choice of the electors,
0:it() aeotibrce..
Parliament.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He came 00 officeg inLord
subject, to the eligibility of Roman Catholicst Noble 1,
land. —(Renewed cries of Hear, hear.)
then quoted an extract of a speech from Sir have. lie,
(The Robert Peeee"
which the Right Hon. Baronet said that it would Cattwoot
better if the penal acts affecting the eligibility of "1." ,sealedt 11)
Lord John r trent
-to office had not been repealed at all, than, when Ivy gee
to be practically acted upon. —( Hear.)
would ask to what appointments had thleiep(vesentstin-tn"litg
preferred Homan Catholics. They had had the
0:hle
of a Master of the Rolls, of the Chief Justice

Beni
Dot i
fact,
tinn
since
they

the
fable
Dr.
00°1
;00

shad

I the
Pro-
give
nin%
f the
re'

i>lo
the

nen* and of three or four Puisne Judges, and yet they had
not appointed a sigle Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) In
fa et, they had scarcely appointed a Roman Catholic, in a na-
tion of Roman Catholics, to a single office of trust or power
Since their accession to office. And yet that was the power
ithey profeEsed to give by statute. That statute spoke of un-
belia preference and unfair suspicion. and the curse that had
e- „
,
ataipteu toward- Ireland was a course tit unjust piatference
and unfair suspicion, con-iilering their talents. and the number
0 that peop'e.—( Hear.) He now came to an objection ttiat had
been made that would induce him to enter a corn pl-ont and
protest that the whole Roman Catholic hada were opposed to
how came it to be •the fact ?—( Hear, hear.) Hitherto the
6oman Catholics had acquiesced in such doctrines —( Hear,
,6 • ) He never heard such char; es made against them.
elear, hear.) On the contrary, 'they had been charged with
Ig`tag too great a wish for arbitrary power.—(Hear hear.)
"L'iw came it, then, that the Roman Catholics opposed the
hretent Ministry ?—( Heir, hear.) He could easily answer
that question—(Heat, hear)—and in doing so he was autho-
ri'ed to make a grave charge against some of the present
members of the Government.—( Hear, hear.) It had been
asserted some time ago that Mr. O'Connell and others had
anited to endeavour to excite feelings of ill-will among the
teople of Ireland to the people of Eng'and.—( Hear,
ar.) That was n., doubt an offence at law.
They had had a charge in their favour from the Chief Justice.
(Cheerin and counter cheering.) They had had a verdict
the Dilation,
in gtheir favour. There could be no doubt but that in
Dilation, both of the Government and of the Crown lawyers,
at was a grave offence, anti it did right to bring men, ay,
Lminent men, to Use bar on such a charge.—( Hear, hear. )
E.ut_,hact there been no persons doing this, reversing the words
,„"giand and Ireland ?—( Cheers.) Had there been no per-
-""' who had endeavoured to excite in the people of England
fel'
land
• of hostility and ill-nature
Theirowards the people of
reuses "-( Renewed cheering.) ecommendation of the two
had been, that the two countries should be bound by
sacli3reeal affection, not one-sided affection, not affection on
hostility of the people of Ireland to be returned by England. o
and ill-will on the part of the people of
h no person in this country endeavoured to excite feelings of
ostility in the minds of the people of England, by calling the
Pe°Ple of Ireland aliens 9.—( Cheers.) Affixing to them a term
"well belonged only to persons born out of the Queen's a11egi-
,1;.,,, and used for the purpose of depriving them of the ben fit
to`niese corporations which had been granted to the people o
;e-gia"—(Cheers ) He would ask why had not the Attor-
(,./h-General_prosec.uied this person in the Queen's Bench ?-
1.1-"eers.) How came it that they had had no speech of eleven
,i2urs stating the enormity of his offence ?—(Renewed cheers.)
1.,,4tie answer no doubt would be, that the words had been spoken
per '"arliament, and were protected by privilege. But had that
br in any way been deprived of the confidence of the
-°"?---(Chee ) Had he been marked as a person not
Prope to rs•
tied,ne admitted into the Queen's Councils ?—(Cheering
counter-cheering.) On the contrary, he occupied the
highestui place there, and he was at the head of the magistracy
sad of the law in England, and stood there as the person to
,i_:t:edactfetehleinparsoosfelclul-twioin against Mr. O'Connell, for having ex-
it among the people of Ireland.---( Cheers. )
tdea ever heard of anything so monstroas as this ?—(Tre-
Fnlestisili_tou:astciohneerZg ) ,:e did not believe that that person held
-account of any superiority in his judgments
entiet tarts over which he presided, for he believed that no
than s were more highly paid, or performed more carelessly,
those mousewhich were performed by that functionary.—(lm-
th_, cheering, and counter ehee:ing.) It was on account of
ldeclaration—on account of that hostility to the people of
teeadd• that that erson had obtained his office.--(lmmense
the-ter! from the Opposition, answered by groans-from the Mi-
eenveireital side of the House.) Well, Government. had. had their
the I"—they might have their superiority in this House, but
~tarY should not prevent him from advocating what he thought
tordtl'e cause of the oppressed.—(Loud cheers.) A Noble
testa:PPosite laid great stress and emphasis on having a Pro-
g,retGovernment, a Protestant Constitution, a Protestant
tialdeitg,n, and a Protestant Church, in this country, and he
they ru that what he meant by the word Protestant was,
(1,; inould not have any minions of Popery in that
of tiel'ornent:— (Hear, hear. ) These were the words
abuseadd for Worcester; but were they not terms of
Was his were they not contumelious terms ?—( Loud cheers.)
144 Right Hon. Friend Mr. etheil— was Mr. Wyse—was
441 Dior &Ferrel, were these minions of Popery ?—( Cheers.)
hattonlare than this, two years ago, a Right Hon. Gentleman
Q,,tat forward a motion of want contidence in the existing
apro
_,rnent, which was carried by a majority of one, and the
14:174tnent Of those three gentleman to office had been
Eleed •tei of whom he would only say that they were hardly
04424 a Position high enough for their merits, The Hun.
of the", for Canterbury (Mr. Bradshaw-) a constan supporter
these present Government, and one of that majotity, attacked
aita, the nma!Painteets ; and said that each of them was a direct
body ''", tion, and that the Government was upheld by a
eisiliz°_l Irish Papists who were elected by savages not more
cheers 74 than the inhabitants of New Zealand.—(Loud
they h Such was the language used at that time, and now
eah,i a° Prosecuted some of' the ablest men in Ireland, and. to
the -e„ti", for endeavouring to excite hostility against
Ras, ra's°Pie of England.—( Loud cheers.) his belief
*ere '''at these directions against the people of Ireland
ate belliart of the steel in trade of the party. now in power.
laet ht„„ieved that they worked upon the prejudices, the honest
therarut prejudices. of the people of England. They made
elleve that the Roman Catholics were about to hold the
taeteyst offices in the State, and they thus animated them, for
(Load",:n Purposes against that portion of the empire.—
'low "leers.) He' alluded to this subject, because it was
because the that the Roman Catholics could not be placed in office
he
84: they belonged not to the political party in power ; but,
veohaolabetaid•a'bWiehat man of the least feeling, of the smallest spirit,
atiendia-rin a Pat ty who treated with contempt and insult, and
iafjustice, the great body of the Roman Catholics,
than 6 o„,t4iged to an ancient religion, and rho constituted more
that '"u"-c°o of the peoale of Ireland?--(Great cheering.)
le,:n4ff stated what he thought was the injustice done to the
*it of Ireland with re and to the administration of justice,
aod regard to the franchise, and the disposal of power
" tteltr°°ages he would now review the conduct
%hie" different Governments with regard to those
hthe fee* Proin 1836, the gentlemen who held
aul: timei of Attorney-General and Solicitor-General for Ire-
athein•-"erroined to give a new direction with regard to the
the e titration of justice ; and for this purpose they directed
tquallr°" solicitors that Catholic*. and Protestants should be
013jectI entitled to serve on juries, excepting cases of special
L.,..Tin• It appeared by the evidence of Sir Michael
the a"'ins that after threeears' experience of this system,
iint;-°nOttence of the pe oleo lreland in the administration of
aid -ee Was greatly increapsed. Evidence to the same effect *as
e,..en by sir W. Somerville ; and let it be recollected that this
,jitlence was given before the Lords' Committee of 18.39, which
~41 appointed to inquire into the state of crime in Ireland.
;railer the administration of Lord Normanby.—( Hear hear.)
ilThe evidence showed that crime had greatly diminished; that
here was more security for life ; and that property was
Lorth more by four or five years' purchase, than it had been
years before.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the muni-
Zi_ale.tranchise, the late Government were of opinion that the
;i73 p_rieciple should be adopted in Ireland and in England.
the' ~,Ilteise agreed With them, but the House of Lords rejected
eote,,Tll- _ But had not the people of Ireland good reason to
tiontiL'ain? The late Government were not in the same
tiett.'utt with regard to administration and legisla-
Icatid It appeared to him, and the people of
better were of the same opinion, that on the whole it were Nee for them to have a Government whose administration
atalfi;_ voourable to them, although their legislation in their be-
meat 14_ •
bstructed them--than that they should have aGovern-
at
bin 'nose laws wou not be more favourabl
Hear,e
heard.) In
whose
a.ri ti_atihsetrait.ti,onk would be adverse to them.—('
411 in 'gut Hun- -Gentleman had Ireland delivered over to kot •, a state of political tranquillity.---( Cheers. ). He did
"4te:1',.4-n•t.° exaggerate. He knew there were evils to be
hyper which could not be done in a few years ; but the
..°4 the people had improved.—(Loud cheers.) They patio„.?
e, confidence in the administration of justice ; the
4welel4 ealth of the people had increased ; the price of land
%Otis van tea • p
La Were
.and property were more secure ; and per-
i•,O seen, i_loure willing to embark capital in the country. He
s'iot) the'a the appointment of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
a!tiootiti germ, of
%Wit "7' The a hope that things in Ireland. woulii.go on
Ct. Y. the Noble Lord himself was in favour of =par-
alt,d Jo h, e commencement of the present Ministry, he
Russellatrintrrie„,) had expressed an opinion in favour of that
Ah_ted '•• His (Lord John Russell's) belief was, and he
had au'reiedthat notwithstanding the wrong and injustice
gredre.ist better if the Irish people would have
.suited their own
art ineree they had remained in tranquilli y, until, by a
eeh•otprescohie of strength, they could have produced such
sintry,
es woos the Government and the Parliament of this
*Ned". That have been irresistible in favour of just plan-
ar' - -.ore Was not the ease. Those who had pos-
'gee ind; Peculiarly the confidence of the Irish people,
tti 'Pant at the treatment they sustained.
Thetintai„d
'the nev, with great force, that hay remedy for those
pe_sy said
thcould be obtained from the English Parliament.
the d_e,_Only remedy for them would be found in a re-
krarnme ".'un• It was a matter for consideration with the
itht at h
that cry was to be met. The. Government
tothe 1114.4 h‘,s,r 17,
motion of their own, or on the motion of
tettleeh,idera7Mber for Limerick, who asked them temperately
End
torn ". attbjeet, have done so. The Government
theionthis. They stood with confidence on the Act of
j'• astic, oceY said they would not inquire into the fellness or
I:::tiittiiiotnel_rtitie Act of Union, but they
of in seemed determined to
an aPpein.ed:erY letter. What was the consequence of that?
tiVe had bee front the indictment lately prepared, that meet-
Ireland at which betNeen three and
andi htlafor
ill Persons had been present. These meetings
e Popose of agitating the repeal of the union ;
Do-ri hear ," were passed in favour of such repe
410-jtiori of'', Was it not alarming to find so great
IN than ft, the Population of Ireland was discontented?
The red
thatrty
Years after the union the people of Ireland
due People "thing but reiiiial could give them satisfaction.
%rte 41 theniGa_d_e various speculations upon the intended con-
teeae NEI th_ uvernment, and various opinions were given.
hlthetattrestaorti,ii;tmeavytiitthhought the meetings were clearly illegal, or
circumstances of illegality ; the Govern-
yawi int_ee issue a proclamation to prevent any fur-
eitthtile_ron4e:
if there said that such would have been a very
lehitti euidit the meetings were allowed to continue mere
dot the l ad not produce any considerable effect, and at
1'1401(4 theier-n,s, who presided at these meetings would
outWoUla be - 7'. accord, or else resort to some steps
athotttrsgelle RTaoLand_ieerrly illegal, and on such steps proceedings
The Government took neither of these
Th.toost oismissed some twenty or thirty magistrates in
Allow Lord c:_rig:
.manner.—(Loud cries of Hear, hear.")
hold ~ `tZi_i ellor cid Ireland declared that certain persons
Mt, ',oat cOrnnussion of the peace in Ireland, could not
tends —mission
tlf %he epee'
ree_. because they held repeal opinions and
Coe' had mad rungs, and that after a Member or
te4tkeytet"" th e certain declarations in the House
to they eY should be dismissed for acting
gin "narked e °Pinions, although as had been pro-
b kion in that He use • ' - eget • aronet respecting repeal could be only known by
ziktiecit,
ithile4:reotteidpri use last night. the sentiments of thes
es of that House iiear, hear.) In
Ise_ ters andik:f
or ..,ttetnte 41.4144:bee:
Parliament.
-rouwgh the newspapers,
rgana inch reland were not aware that the Times,
tb of Mini, roniele, and the Herald, were the recognised
Zaracenmata gistraies e . ( Hear, hear. ) But
4--thieri,ieie with thesaldidrielodelsmissed because they did not act
eurn• opinions so delivered.
ktirleed :lade "agt istrates w re Those proceed-
ioeny !e"en the rio diminish the danger of those meet-
*tilt°. the lug :eaten truste and h
mdibsemrisawrehdo attended
in
whothme se
the meetings,pple
relend, by that conmfideeanncse
fe,, gistracy ef w o were the
rnerly attached to that
une too "tcnn March •
vreyredirecer body. Those me'etings were
•el , the L until October, and then suddenly,
de
;trn d a e
:ri der-muetellisttirnebg:t7—thord Lieutenant and the Chancellor
e meetings which had been hitherto
_ea
ied by proclamation, and their sup-
le°4 of . one eiredintetd•—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
‘erotlnie meeting which
extraOradl.'ee attending that proclama-
character. He alluded
Puidigereenta E which was tiontY held at 9ontsrf. All the
Pre- shed end ad been made for that meeting, and had been
'ver4ded it declared at the D
at:ryfp,dreviously. In fact, it had been uni-
ta 4111 y kh gollle time onnybrook meeting, which
ays before, that a repeal meeting was
sittvistP4rkeeletitai°eowe na'sf ewlai
roeialet.not a single step was taken for
th7roooa but
(fir
were cse wish to be h,e,.,lrd.et
do meeting ieh monodist !Won was issued upon the Saturday
Y„preceded t tsarunday on which
4',l;lriiiirnse e
who d that proclama-
anehar. hear eiPonsible
14. s at which it was issued.—
illtd Stateru• )en He wouild h ay—he should be sorry to make
t.";tlLatt they ad.issued it in the hope of blood-
(Hs—, .1 e
an doing so they had acted with a
uut

carelessness that showed they had not a sufficient value for:life.
—( Hear, hear.) What had prevented the people from coming
up in crowds ?—( Hear, hear.) What but the exertions of
llr. O'Connell and his associates ?—( Great cheering.) Not
the care of a paternal Government—( Hear, hear)—but by a
few irrespoesible men, and one of those had become a victim in
the cause of pe ice._( Hear, hear.) Did not it therefore be-
come that House to make an inquiry—( Hear)—a s:r:ct an 1
searching inquiry, why that which was known to all
the world was not known to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland,
and the Council in which he issued the late proclamation ?
( Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who approved of
meetings that were calculated to excite tumults, or might
eed in forcible intimidation.—( Hear, hear.) Previous to
the commencement of the meeting at Clontarf, the proclama-
tion he had adverted to had been issued, stating that it was
d o.geious to the public peace, illegal, and uncons:itutional.—
Hear, hear.) What had been the result of that proclamation?
Far diffetent to what it would have been but for the inter-
ference of Mr. O'Connell.—( Hear, hear.) Put, however,
much they might triumph in sending Mr. O'Connell to goal,
let them not forget that Mr. O'Connell had on every occasion
persuaded the people to keep the peace, and dissuaded them
from violence.—( Cheers. ) At the time that he (Lord John
nu-sell) had held office, he had on several occasions felt
anxious as to the course which Mr. O'Connell might adopt.
At the time the outbreak took place among the Catholics of
Canada, he had a etched the course of Mr. O'Connell with the
greatest anxiety. Mr. O'Connell had held up the conduct of
the insurgents to odium, and had warned all who had any con-
fidence in him not to be guilty of a breach of the peace.
Again, when outbreak was threatened by the Chartists of
England. Mr. O'Connell told the Irish people that the object
of the Chartists could only be obtained by physical force, and
that a resort to physical force could not be justified under any
eircumstances.—(Cheers.) Then, again, at the time of the
agitation respecting trades unions, Mr. O'Connell had not
only exposed his popularity, but his life, to discourage the
movement in favour of trades' uaions.—( Cheers.) These
things were worthy the serious consideration of the Govern-
ment ; and when multitudes were assembled for the purpose of
discussing the obvious and admitted grievances under which
Ireland laboured, surely it was some safety for a Government
to know, that at the head of that movement, was a man who had
always persuaded the people to peace, and dissuaded them from
a resort to physical force.—( Cheers.) It was singular that the
Government should have taken no steps to put a stop to
those meetings, until the time at which the Clontarf meeting
was to have been held, and they had nearly come to an end,
but having done so, they might very well have stopped them,
and waite.i till Mr. O'Connell should have taken some other
steps too dangerous to pass unnoticed. But they had thought
that it would be better to have recourse to a prosecution, and
that prosecution was for all these meetings which they them-
selves had allowed to pass, for all those acts of which
they had taken no notice--(Cheers)—for articles in news-
papers—which might have been prosecuted as seditious libels—
( Loud cheers)—acts which had been suffered 'to proceed
without inters option for nine months together, while one of
the persons prosecuted had only joined the Association at a late
period, when it might well have been supposed, from the supine-
ness of the Government that there was nothing illegal in it, and
that any person holding repeal principles might safely join it.
—(Cheers.) They didnot prosecute them for these separate
meetings but for a conspiracy, and he had been reminded by
this prosecution most strong'y of the prosecution against
Horne Tooke and Hardy.—(Cheers.) They had brought
together acts extending over a period of nine months in pre-
cisely the same manner as had been done in that instance, and
which had brought down upon the prosecutors the eloquent
denusiciations of Erskine.—(Loud cheers.) These persons
were indicted for conspiracy to obtain some common end by
illegal means. Those means were the meetings which had
teen suffered by the Government to go on without interrup-
tion for nine months.—( Hear, hear.) He had read the able
and temperate speech of the Attorney-General for Ireland,
the able and equally temperate speech of the Solicitor-
General, and the able, but by no means temperate,
charge of the Chief Justice—(Cheers and laughter)—
and, for his own part, he could not but come to the conclu-
sion that the meetings attacked were either legal and innocent,
or illegal and criminal. If they were legal and innocent, how
could the attending them, or any number of them, constitute a
crime? If they had been illegal and criminal, why had they
been allowed to pass nine months unnoticed?—(Cheers.)
Surely the Government did not expect that these meetings
would cease of themselves, when no notice had been given of
their illegality ?—( Cheers.) It had been said that they had
been suffered to pass unnoticed, because the Government had
not at the moment a sufficient force in Ireland to suppress them.
It was impossible to believe that such could be the case. It was
Impossible to believe that the Government would seek thus to
entrap men—(Cheers)—that they would conceal their
opinions for the purpose of sweeping all these persons into
their net—( Loud cheers)—that they would seek to obtain a
conviction for acts which they themselves had passed over
unnoticed.—( Cheers.) The indictment was for conspiracy,
and it appeared from the charge of the Ch:ef Justice, that the
present law of conspiracy was not the ancient law of the land.
By the ancient lair of the land, the combination of people in
secret to commit injustice was necessary to be proved,
in order to substantiate the charge of conspiracy.—(Hear,
hear.) The alteration in the law had not been made
b. statute. The new law of conspiracy was. what Mr.
Bentham would call judge-made law, and he had read a note
from the last edition of dale's Pleas of the Crown, which stated
that the law of conspiracy had of late been carried -itch fur:
ther than it ever had been in ancient times, and that Lord
Ellenborough had stated that it had been carried fat enough.—
( Hear, hear.) He ( Lord John Russell) thought that great
caution should be used in the application of that doctrine to
meetings held for the discussion of public subjects. According
to that doctrine, any person might be involved in a charge
of conspiracy.—( Hear, hear.) 'rake the Anti- Corn-Law
League, for instance. Suppose that, in consequence of
scarcity, violent speeches should be made, and persons
should be guilty of riot ; it might be very proper to indict
those persons for their conduct, but what would they say to an
indictment for conspiracy which should include the Marquis of
Westminster and Mr. Jones Loyd, because they were mem-
bers of the Anti-Corn-Law League?—(Cheers and laughter.)
or, if a Government of a different opinion should come into
power, he could not see why the Agricultural League
might not be indicted for conspiracy.—(Cheers and laughter. )
The being present at an illegal meeting, as he had said before,
was merely a single point to be proved by evidence, aye or no,
and the jury could come to a clear decision upon it. But in a
conspiracy everything was involved, everything was important
where the law and the fact were at such a. distance from
each other, and it required the utmost clearness of head and of
understanding to consider the subject. It was obvious that
this law of conspiracy might be used for the oppression of the
subject, but what was the remedy ? It was that which availed
in the can of Hardy and Horne Tooke. It was a fair and
impartial trial by jury.--( Cheers. ) Was there such a protec-
tion in Ireland 2—( Loud cheers.) He returned to the state-
ment which he had quoted of Sir Michael O'Loghlin, that it
had been the practice since the union to strike off Catholics
and liberal Protestants from the jury. He begged the House
to consider what had lately taken place in Ireland. In the first
place, it appeared by affidavit that in the general list of per-
sons qualified to serve en special juries there were sixty names
omitted.
Mr. SHAW (Recorder of Dublin)—That has not been
stated on affidavit.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was stated in the challenge to
the array. (I he Noble Lord here read the challenge.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite contradicted this statement,
but he (Lord John Russell) believed that it had been ad-
mitted by the Attorney-General and the law officers of the
Crown upon demurrer.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman denied this, but the traversers said there were sixty
names omitted, and Mr. O'Connell said that thirty-five of
those sixty were Roman Catholics, being a much greater pro-
portion than was on the array when it was finally struck. He
(Lord j. Russell) did not charge any person with fraud, but
even supposing that it was done innocently, and with the best
intentions, still he thought, under the circumstances, it
was the duty of the law officers of the Crown and the Government
itself, to see that no advantage was taken of the circumstance.
It was the custom formerly in Ireland to exempt Roman
Catholics from juries, and on this occasion ten persons had
been rejected by the law officers of the Crown, because they
were Roman Catholics. This proceeding was of itself suffi-
cient to deprive those State prosecutions of the moral weight
which they would have justly had under other circumstances.
It the object of the Government had been to ensure a convic..

tion he could understand the mode of proceeding—if it were
in the case of a private individual, where a private right was
contested, he could very well understand this made of packing
a jury. The Noble Lord then read an extract from the evi-
dence of Mr. Kemmis, given before a Committee of that
House in 1839, when Mr. Kemmis was asked if
he did not think that placing the greater number
of Prot slants on a jury where, in the ordinary course
of the panel, the Catholics would preponderate, was not
packing a jury ? Mr. Kemmis said he thought not; and when
asked what he thought packing a jury signified, he said " put-
ting in a jury to convict or acquit." There were only ten
Roman Catholics among these forty-eight ; and all the tra-
versers with the exception of Mr. Steele, were Roman Catho-
lics ; yet from this roil was st uck out all the Roman Catholics:
a circumstance which would induce the people of Irelanl to
believe that the jury was appointed to convict.—(Hear.) It
was impossible that, under such circumstances, the people could
believe that their leaders had been tried by a fair and impartial
jury. He could very well understand why members of the
Repeal Association should be excluded from the jury—to that
he would himself object; but two of these ten persons were
not, and never had been, members of the Repeal Association,
and had never contributed to its funds. He was, there-
fore. bound to believe that these two gentlemen
had been objected to solely because they were Ro-
man Catholics, arid that the other eight, whether they professed
repeal principles or not, would have been excluded because
they were Human Catholics. He held in his hand an affi-
davit of one of these gentlemen, declaring that he had never
been a member of the Repeal Association, and had never
subscribed to its funds. With regard to the proceedings of
the trial itself, he did not mean to enter into them. With
respect to the conduct of the Attorney-General, it had al-
ready been made a subject of comment in that House, and
he had been excused by the Ministers of the Crown. The
Attorney-General, in a court of justice, when the Judges were
about to enter, surrounded by all the majesty of justice, in
the midst of a great and important trial, so far lost his temper,
and outraged decency, as to invite a breach of the peace. He
had been excused on the ground of irritation by one
of the members of her Majesty's Government ; but if such
allowance was made for the feelings and irritability of the first
law officer of the Crown, should there not also be some allot,v •
ante made for the exclamations of the Roman Catholics, who
had been for years subjected to the grossest imputations.—
( Hear, hear.) Had not their priesthood been denominated a
demon priesthood ?—had not their religion been slandered?—
had not the people been called barbarians, and worse than New
Zealand.rs ?—and yet they were held less excusable than the
Attorney-General, who had transgressed the bounds of de-
cency. He perceived, by the newspapers of that day, that a
meeting had been held to celebrate the liberation of Mr.
Oastler—( Hear, hear)-- and a Noble Lord who presided paid
all kinds of compliments to Mr. Oastler, who was recognised as
the organ of the feelings of a party, but who, perhaps, had
given expression to the feelings of that party with too much
liveliness—he could not but remember that expressions had
fallen from this same Mr. Oastler which might well be com-
pared with the speeches which had been made by those indi-
viduals who were the subject of the State prosecutions in Ireland.
With regard to the traversers who have been convicted, when
they shall have received their sentence your proceedings will
he at an end for the present. But would this have any conci-
liating effects ?—(Cheers.) What do you expect from these
proceedings?—( Hear, hear.) Mr. O'Connell, as a trium-
phant speaker—as a man who had forced the Government and
Parliament of England into the concession of the Emancipa-
tion Act—as a triumphant speaker,was, no doubt, an object of
admiration to the people of Ireland, but he doubted much if
Mr. O'Connell, convicted by a jury, purposely and expressly of
Protestants—( Loud cheers)—convicted and sent to prison,
and suffering for the people of Ireland, for whom he obtained
such r
esults—suffering, perhaps, in health, at his
advanced age,
in a prison, would not have a much
ofecdtionsifofthtehe
supffeete ng
victim
Ire-
land—hegreater holdvery uponm much
the affections
whom you imprisoned would not have more sympathy than the
triumphant leader vie.om you disliked.—( Cheers.) Let them
doubted
consider what they could do with regard to the future state of
Ireland—whether there were not measures—whether there
was not a course, by which they might really unite
the people of Ireland to this country. The
evils of the itresent state of things must be felt on every side.
If they considered the finances, what expense must it not cause
to govern Ireland by military force and the erection of
fortresses ? If they considered the state of their foreign re-

lotions, and if any differences existed between this country and
any foreign State, what advantage would not his Noble Friend
have with both countries united, and supported by the feelings
and affections of the United Kingdom--(Cheers)--over the
Minister of Foreign Affairs, who represented a divided people,
one portion of whom was governed only by force of arms ?
(Cheers ) On every account they ought to settle the present
state of affairs. Let them take care care, if they wished to
maintain the union, that the people of Ireland had all the be-
nefits of that union, all those advantages which they were pro-
mised, and which had been sanctioned by the Relief Act of
1829. Let them have no partial administration of justice—no
partial, no sectarian administration of justice.—( Cheers. ) If
the House went into Committee, his first resolution would re-
spect this subject. He would next endeavour to frame such a
franchise forthe people of Ireland as might be agreeable to them
and conformable with the law prevailing in this country.
If they could not have a 409. franchise, they should at least
have one equal to the franchise in this country. Mr. O'Con-
neil complained that the whole of the agricultural counties of
Ireland had not more electors than the sir& county of Y irk ;
that while Wales had 3‘a',ooo electors, the county of Cork,
which was nearly equal in population, hail only 2,0,;0. These
were obvious inequalities, which must be remedied if they
wished to proceed in concert, ar.d acted in good faith and up
to the engagements of M:. Pitt in 1799. It was not Mr.
O'Connell alone who spoke of the inequalities of the franchise
in the two countries; but the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Waterford, and the Duke of Leinster, and Lord
Charleinont, who were no levellers, no agitators, agreed in
representing it as a great evil. They ought, therefore,
to set about a cure. They ought to act on the de-
claration of the • Right Honourable Gentleman in 1817.
There were two courses they might pursue. If they main-
tained the law as it formerly stood, they had truly the sin-
csrity of scruples, justice to all parties, and security. But if
they passed the Act they lost the whole.—( Hear, hear.) He
should, therefore, assert that principle in any resolution he
should propose to the House. He came now to a subject
which nearly touched and related to the people of Ireland,
upon which they atte.npted to legislate, but not sufficiently
either for the people of Ireland, or for any person. He
alluded to the Ecclesiastical Establishment.—( Hear, hear.)
Wherever that was advocated it was invariably stated, that
our Establishment raised jealousies, prodttced indolence, and
other evils. With regard to the voluntary principle it was
stated, that the evil of it would be that the ministers of re-
ligion would be dependent upon their flocks for support, and
that, being so, they would join in every act of political agitation.
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the last objection he had stated,
it was evident every where. But the ecclesiastical system
in Ireland combined both the objections to which he had ad-
verted. The people felt that they were excluded—( Hear, hear)
—that there was a class paramount over them.---( Hear, hear.)
But then he would come to the evils of the voluntary prin-
ciple. What was the fact with respect to that ? Why that
the clergy of six millions and a half of the people of Ireland
were supported by it. But it was said that Roman Catholics,
to whom the greatest praise was due, were forced by it into
political discussion more than any other set of men, and in the
Quqrterlg Review he had seen it stated that, by some means
or other, it was necessary to remove the clergy from the hustings
and the platform. Would it not be better, therefore, to
unite both systems in one great principle ?—( Hear, hear.)
Then with respect to the union. If the maintaining of the
terms of, the union was not in accordance or palatable to the
people of Ireland, for his own partake could not see any ob-
jection to the alteration of the Act Union.—( Hear, hear.)
He confessed that he did not think they could remove the
grievances of the people in Ireland, but by making some
alteration in the Established Church. He for one did not
think that the voluntary system would be effective. The system
he should prefer would be one that would have the effect of
putting the Established Church of England and Ireland, the
Roman Catholic and the Presbyterian Church in the North
of Ireland, upon an equality. He did not however, think that
that could be done at the present moment, but if
the House wou'd only proceed in a spirit of fairness and
impartiality, and grant to the people of Ireland what they were
clearly entitled to, he should not despair of the Roman Catholics
joining heart and hand with such a proposition. For the pre-
sent, he thought that everything should be done to improve the
College of Alaynooth—( Hear, hear)—and that double the
amount that was at present allowed by the Government
to that establishment ought to be granted to it.
There ought to be greater means given to colleges at which
liberal education could be derived. When he spoke of a
liberal education, and when he spoke of the Rom la Catho-
lics of Ireland, he must say that he was not one of those who
thought it at all necessary that Roman Catholics should be
taken from a higher class of society, or that they should be-
long to a different class to that to which they at present be-
longed. He thought there was a great defect at present in
their education. Still, however, there was a principle in the
Roman Catholic Church which was not unworthy of any
ether Christian Church, by which a person, however low,
could rise to eminence in the Church. Such, then, were his
opinions with respect to this subject. All that he would de
at present would be to improve the system of education in
Ireland, and to give larger sums towards it. He thought they
ought to give the same advantages -to the Roman Catholic
clergy, as were possessed by the clergy of the Protestant
Churoli. At all events, he thought those derogatory distinc•
tions ought to be taken from the Roman Catholic clergy.
Why should not the bishops be allowed to call themselves by
the name of the diocese over which they were placed ?—(Hear.)
Ile thought it was an unwise and a foolish thing not to allow
them to do so. Why should not Dr. Murray be called the
Roman Catholic Archbishop of Ireland ? He was the Arch-
bishop of Ireland. His character was held in the highest estima-
ttii,oen
L,
oalthought e hn ea n
th aodf
Inroetlanredc.eiviefdtmheurcehwcaosunanteynaandcveaoftraogme
given by the Act of Union to the Protestant Church, which
was nut given to the Catholic Church and the Presbyterian
Church, they should at once be abolished. There still ro-
mained the question of the E tablished Church in Ireland.
He believed that Archbishop Whately had put forward a plan
to make the Church a Church of c.ingregations and not a
Chu: ch of parishes. They had heard last year that even where
there were two Protestants in a parish, a minister was endowed
with a sufficient income to attend to the spiritual wants of
those two versons. In that parish there might have been 3,000
or 5,000 Cathol cs, and it would be evident that no parochial
d:stributiou could fairly be made. Another instance was stated
las; year. In a parish, where there were 1,000 Protestants, a
minister was appointed with 1001. a-year. In such a case as
this, he thought the income of the minister ought to have been
increased. He thought the income of the Irish Church was
more than any Church on the Continent possessed. They had,
too, about 450,0001. as a perpetuity fund. How this large
amount was applied he was at a loss to imagine. By the aboli-
tion of the 25 percent, of the tithes of the clergy, a sum of
300,0001. had been saved. Had this sum gone to the exten-
sion of spiritual instruction—had it gone to the extension of
education ? No, it had gone to benefit the landlords. He
thought, therefore, that if they could diminish the income of
the clergy for such a purpose, they might at least do
so to advance spiritual instruction and education. He came
now to the most important question of all, namely,
that of landlord and tenant. He would refer the House to the
statement made by Mr. O'Connell on this subject, and if that
statement were founded on truth, it became incumbent on that
House to enter seriously into the consideration of the subject.
Mr. O'Connell said the connexion between landlord and tenant
in Ireland was a most vicious one. The labouring population
were on the extreme verge of dea;itution. The system had led
to the most horrible crimes. It was, therefore, necessary to
have such a revision of the system as would give the landlord a
fair rent for his land and the tenant a just return for his labour.
The landlord and tenant question was one of the utmost diffi-
culty. It was indeed a task to place these relations on a satis-
factory footing. It was impossible to read those passages and
not to admit that Mr. O'Connell, the leader of the people,
hose business it was to hold out for immediate advantages
impor-
tance roefpeal,
this question,
m ust have been deeply
w heene
hos
aiid mpr
that
et
the
see dw r
olaittiho
o the
of
itwas
filled with danger. He (Lord J. Russell) would not venture
to say what should be the course of legislation on this subject.
evidence.Th e Government had
He doubted
appointed
whether a C
futthoomrmosisisin
deonot 000
was obtain fur the r
necessary .
Aluchhomadmailsrseier. Such
beenaodnys given
statementson the
assubjectw
beerfeo r ei
n Committeesth
the
and c
pam-
phlet entitled " A Cr) from Ireland," and which recorded the
proceedings of one of the landlords, Richard Shee of Blackwell
Lodge, were truly painful to peruse. The narratives recorded
there were truly heart-rending, and he would not venture to
read them to the House if they were not supported
by good evidence. All these statements could not be
wrong, and if there were any of them true, it sufficiently proved
that, in the name of the the law, the powers of the Jaw had
been abused, and that the power of the landlords had been ex-
ercised to an extent truly dreadful. He thought it would tend
very much to the mitigation, if not to the removal, of those
evils, if steps were taken to make the administration of jus-
tice more pure, and above all, to separate more from the land-
owners of the country the functions of magistrate. He thought
the extension of stipendiary magistrates would be very desirable.
In the words of Mr. Fox, he wished to see the laws adminis-
tered in a spirit of equity and impartiality, so as to give confi-
dence to the people. He hoped, by such means, that many of
those acts of rapacity and violence on the one hand, and venge-
ance and cruelty on the other, would be curbed and checked ; but
he would not venture to say that he knew of any direct remedy
for so great, so extensive, and so long-enduring en evil. It
was nearly a century since circumstances as horrible and
outrages as general as now existed, occurred in Ireland. Let
them not think that a few pages of an Act of Parliament would
eradicate such evils.—(Hear, hear.) Having now detained
the House at such length—(Cries of " No, no," and loud
cries of " Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—he would not
enter into the various complaints which had been made re-
garding the present condition of Ireland. (The Noble Lord
then read an extract from the speech of Mr. Fox, delivered
very shortly after the union had been carried, with respect to
the spirit in'which that country should be governed, and which
expressions were applicable to the present state of Ire-
land.) Mr. Fox denied that the people of that country
were disloyal, or tainted with treason, and with the
poison of Jacobinical principles ; arid he said that no
disaffection existed, except what had resulted from the faults
of misgovernment.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Fox said he knew a
great deal of Ireland, both from having been in that country, and
from many ptiiiate individuals. He knew that that people
were irritable and alive to injury—that they possessed quick
feelings and quick resentment ; but he said, that of all the feel-
ings which actuated them none was more predominant, from the
highest to the lowest classes, than gratitude for benefactions
and sensibility of kindness. Let the English Government
change their system of policy, and they would find them a dif-
ferent people—let them try the effects of good government,
and laws impartialy administered, and there would be no need
for military governments or executions. Such were the sen-
timents of Mr. Fox, who had been long in his grave, and
whose remains were interred close at hand, in that receptacle
of the great and the good of all ages. Such were the words of
Fox—such was the spirit that must animate all who endeavoured
to promote the welfare and the happiness of the ish people.
That was the system which Mr. Fox, loving Ireland, had said
he knew would be a system to conciliate the affections of the
Irish people.—( Loud cheers.) The House had now an oppor-
tunity—a late opportunity it was true, but still sufficiently in
time—of realising that which Mr. Fox had said was the true
policy fur the country to pursue after Ireland should have been
united to it. —(Cheers. ) He was reminded of what had been
related respecting another country which had been long greatly
disordered after its union with England, and which d been
described by one of Scotland's most gifted sons, Sir Walter
Scott.—(Cheers.) Sir Walter Scott stated that when George
111. came to the throne, the people of Scotland began to look
towards the young sovereign for repose after the disorders and
rebellions, and redress of those wrongs which had agitated the
country during the reign of his grandfather, after the Acts of
Parliament proscribing the language and dress of the High•
landers, which had produced irritation and resistance. An
officer had been proposed for a commission in his Majesty's
army. It was represented to the Sovereign that he fought on
the side of the Pretender, and had performed many gallant
actions in his service. " Well," replied the King, "if he has
fought so well against me, he will, no doubt, fight equally for
me." " The reply," said Sir Walter Scott, " was circulated
in the Highlands, and, although the Highlanders retained
their abstract notions of the right of the House of Stuart, yet
such was their attachmentliemanda. dt h
eotohfne reigning family that they
would lay down their lives for a Prince of the House of
throne,mH ia t ni
eo
sa
had r
and.—
fallen(
C duringhe Hanover.—(Cheers.)
t)nh
eI Wr
et
Thwheerar egyhroaatnidndbgfae etQhneure a ernine abunepylol in coantl—he
I there were several oppressive laws enacted, both by the Irish
and the English Parliament, and these laws had produced re-
sistance on the part of the people.—( Hear, hear.) Their pre-
sent sovereign was as young as George 111. had then been.
She was separated from the memory of those calamities.
Why should not the present Queen reign over the hearts of her
Irish subjects, so that, however attached they might be to re-