The Sun.
London, England, 1868-04-04 00:00:00

Church and State as far as the Irish Church is concerned;
that he intended a disestablishment, which must lead to a
,aisendowment. This question having suddenly been
"brought before Parliament, the Government had to con-
sider how they would meet it. Considering that it was
brought forward by the leader of the Opposition, and the
other circumstances attending it, the "previous ques-
tion" was impossible— a direct negative would have led
to an inference that the Government did not admit any
modification to be necessary, which was not their opinion.
The third course open to them was an amendment, and in
defending Lord Stanley's amendment Mr. Disraeli quoted
a dictum of Sir R. Peel, "Never attempt in your amend-
ment to express your policy. In that amendment there
were two points taken on which the Government were
prepared to stand; and, commenting on the second of
them, Mr. Disraeli declared that by his phrase " denying
the moral competence of Parliament" ho had meant that
when a fundamental law of the country was in ques-
tion, a House of Commons could not decide upon it,
elected by a constituency which had never had an intima-
tion that such an attack was contemplated. That this
house was not elected with any view to deciding the Irish
Church question was shown by Lord Palmerston's mani-
festo at the last election and Mr. Gladstone's letter quoted
the other !light, and though he had never held the Act
of Union to be irreversible, it certainly was preposterous
to ask Parliament to reverse such a solemn muuiment at
eight days' notice. After replying, in his happiest and
most effective vein of repartee, to the attacks of Lord
Cranborne and Mr. Lowe, be went on to examine the cir-
cumstances under which Mr. Gladstone had proposed
what he described as a "vast and violent" change. Ad-
mitting that Ireland was not in a satisfactory condition,
though the people were better off socially and politically
than at any other time, he ridiculed Mr Gladstone's pic-
ture of a " crisis" gathered from the dark reminiscences of
seven centuries, and refused to argue the Irish question
on this fallacious assumption. Vindicating the Irish
policy of the Government, he claimed for him-
self and his party, in or out of office, always
to have acted on the principle of reconciling races in
Ireland, and strengthening Protestant interests by doing
justice to the Roman Catholics, and of putting both
creeds on a footing of perfect equality. But the policy
now recommended by Mr. Gladstone was in complete
antagonism to a policy of conciliation ; it would foster
anomalies and indefinitely defer the restoration of political
tranquillity. His attack on the. Irish Church involved a
violation of the rights of property never suggested before in
Parliament by any statesman in a position of responsibility
—and though recognising a difference between public and
private property as far as the State is concerned, ho
pressed upon the House to weigh well what effect upon
private rights this attack upon Church property might
have. To-depri,ve the Church of her property and to in-
dicate no mode of disposing of it was sheer confisca-
tion, but, above all, he protested strongly against
the application of it to secular purposes. In the
latter part of his speech Mr. Disraeli, responding
to Mr. Cardwell's request to have a clear and
definite issue submitted to the House, dilated on
the importance, not so much to the Church as the State,
of maintaining the connexion between political authority
and the religious principle; and the only modeof securing
that connexion was by an Establishment. If that con-
nexion were terminated in Ireland where would you stop?
Why should it not be terminated in Scotland and Wales,
and even in England. It was the ulterior consequences of
this attack on the Irish Church which he wished to im-
press on the public mind. Mr. Gladstone appeared here as
the representative of a combination of the high Ritualistic
party and the supporters of the Pope in Ireland, and,
under the guise of legislating in " the spirit of the age,"
an attack was made on some of the most precious privi-
leges of the subject, which he pledged himself as long as
ho remained First Minister he would resist to the utmost
of his ability.
Mr. GLADSTONE rose to reply just about 1 o'clock,
and dismissing Mr. Disraeli's speech with the remat k that
most of it was irrelevant, and much of it due to a heated
imagination, he explained the figures by which he made
out that his scheme would leave the Protestants in pos-
session of three-fifths of the present value of the Church
property. Answering the various arguments urged in the
course of the debate, and acknowledging its general fair-
ness towards himself, he ridiculed the fears expressed of
the irritating effects of this change on the minds of the
Protestants, and pointed to the numerous successful in-
stances of disestablisment. Mr. Disraeli's argument that a
fundamental law of the country could not bo dealt with by
Parliament without reference to the constituencies, ho de-
scribed as ultra-democratic, if not anarchical. He did not
conceal his intention to separate Church from State in Ire-
land, and that he argued was the most effectual mode of
preserving what Mr. Disraeli called the connexion between
Government and the religious principle. And to the ob-
jection that this would lead to the destruction of the
English Church, Mr. Gladstone replied that each establish-
ment must stand on its own merits, and the Irish Establish-
ment could not be maintained by its applicability to Eng-
land. Examining the varying declarations of the Premier,
the Home Secretary, and the Irish Secretary, and extract-
ing from it the conclusion that their plan was to endow the
Catholic Church, he emphatically condemned it as too
late, and contrary to the sense of England and Scotland,
and repudiated by the Irish Catholics themselves. Reply-
ing to Mr. Roebuck's inquiry whether he was prepared
with a bill, he disclaimed heartily the idea of "huddling
the question up in an abstract resolution," and he pointed
to the second and third resolutions as a proof that it was
not intended once again to mock the people
of Ireland with idle words. But, while no unrea-
sonable demand was made ou the time of au expiring
Parliament, he asked it to pronounce an opinion which
would clear the way for its successors.
The division was called at 20 minutes past 2, and the

numbers were—
For Lord Stanley's amendment .
Against it ...
Majority against the Government 60
The result was received with loud cheering from the
Opposition benches.
There was a second division on the question that the
house go into Committee, and the numbers on this were—
For the motion ... ... 328
Against it ... ... 272
Majority for the motion 56
The House then went into Committee, and after the
first resolution had boon formally put, the Chairman was
ordered to report progress.
At a quarter-past 3 o'clock the House adjourned until
Monday, the 20th instant.

... 270
... 330