The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-07 00:00:00

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MAY 7, 1850.

clause was that its chief merit consisted in the fact that
they did not make a ready cut- ind-iry form for the
colonies, but let them enact the precise clauses neces-
sary for their own government. Indeed, the proposition
justiceappeared
thatto himhe
thoughtto embody
it
co usludcbhe onlyasimp
met simple
a b
y tof
some m
o m
let al
t
difficulty. He did not think, however, that the legal
common
objections taken by the lion. and Learned Member for
Youghal were tenable. All that was asked was to give
the Church of England the same powers which other bodies
possessed, and he called upon the members of every
religious persuasion to assist them in obtaining that
power. Ile would ask the Government what was the
nature of the great danger which threatened the social
state of Europe at the present moment, and from which
this country was happily so free i —(Hear.) Was it not
the entire indifference which the people manifested with
respect to all religion, rather than an intolerance in the
exercise of any sect ? It was the danger of infidelity
which they ha t to stern at the present moment, and that
could not be done efficaciously without giving free ex-
ercise for the dissemination of religious instruction and
education. The great danger of the age was to be
found in that ignorance which led to infidelity, and
which incapacitated men from seaing their real and best
interests either in this world or in the world to come. He
regretted to find that the tendency of all modern govern-
ments was to thwart any measure calculated to render
the Church more useful and effective. That tendency
was evinced in a variety of ways. He could perceive it
in the choice made of clergymen to fill the office of pre-
lates, for it was well known that it was not the most elo-
quent and able men, but the most quiet men that were
selected for that office. He asked for no exclusive pri-
vileges for the Church, and he had no apprehension of
her losing her vitality. But he confessed he had serious
fears for that state which would not earnestly and sin-
cerely endeavour to promote every measure that had for
its plain and straightforward object the development of
religious truth and the preparation of the people for
those blessings which would ensure their temporal and
eternal happiness.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that under the appearance of a
I somewhat mysterious proposition, this was really an im-
portant one. They had to deal with what the propo-
sition called " the United Church of England and Ire-
land in the colonies." Everybody understood what was
meant by the United Church of England and Ireland. It
was subject to certain laws in this country, and to
certain great privileges. But there was a party in this
country that wanted to. deal with that Church in a way
which the people of this country would not permit.—
(Hear.) What did they want? To have the Church
above the law—to have convocation sitting by the side of
Parliament. " We have put down that, Sir (said the
Hon. Member), and we do net intend that it shall ever
be revived."—(Hear, hear.) That by a sidewind in the
colonies was attempted. But they were not to be mys-
tified out of their common sense; and no man dare at
the present time propose, at least no man with com-
mon sense could expect, that such a proposition
would be attended to, as that convocation should be
sitting by the side of the English Parliament.—
(Hear, hear.) But there were persons so infatuated
with notions connected with the Church, that they
wanted to create that thing—(Hear, hear)—to de-
clare, as to the United Church of England and Ireland,
" That it shall be lan fah for the bishop or bishops of
any diocese or dioceses in the said colonies, or in any
colony which her Majesty shall, by order in Council, de-
clare to be joined to them for the purposes next herein-
after described, and the clergy and lay persons, being
declared members of the Chuch of England, or being
otherwise in communion with him or them respectively,
to meet together from time to time, and, at such meeting,
by mutual consent, or by a majority of voices of the said
clergy and laity, severally and respectively, with the
assent of the said bishop, or of the majority of the said
bishops, if more than one, to make all such regulations
as may be necescary for the better conduct of
their ecclesiastical affairs and for the holding of
meetings for the said purpose thereafter." Those gen-
tlemen wished to be placed in the position of a member
of any Dissenting community. One of them had told
him that he would be content to be put on the same
footing as the "Jumpers."--(A laugh.) Was that so?
Were the members of the Church of England—ho
would take Van Diemen's Land—to divest themselves
of the character of members of that Church, and put
themselves on an equality with the Jumpers? An
Hon. Member (we believe Mr. Gladstone)—" es."
(Laughter.] Let the House understand what that
meant. First, he would strike out altogether the name
of the United Church of England and Ireland—they were
no longer of that sect—they were persons professing
anything they liked—a simple body of Dissenters, that
chose to meet together, and why, then, should the Im-
perial Parliament pass anything about them at all ?
(Hear.) He wanted to have that question answered.
They were going to create a legislature in that country
—that would have power over religious sects. The only
body of churchmen with whom that House could have
any possible sympathy was the United Church of England
and Ireland, as it was called ; but that Church held the
Queen for its head—it looked to the various arch-
bishops and bishops for its direction in clerical affairs
—it did not presume to meet together, its bishops and
laymen, for the purpose of church government, land to
set up their opinions against that of the
Church as by law established. If they ever
established that, there was an end to the Church of
England and Ireland, and they would attain that
which he (Mr. Roebuck) had so long desired—the
complete separation of Church and State.—(Hear,
hear.) But let them not misunderstand themselves.
There was a High Church party—those who called
themselves a supereminent and peculiar Church party,
who went back to mediwral Church literature, painted
windows, and all the fantastic proceedings which arose
out of a peculiar state of ignorance—(Hear, hear, and
laugh)—thesea persons said " Let us go back to that
mediaeval state which we believe to be a state of excel-
lence," and they traced out those ideas in their own way.
They appealed to America.—(Hear.) What did they
find there? No established church—perfect equality—
freedom amongst all sects—(Hear)—no power derived
from the state, and no money from the state—(Hear,
hear)—and that was a very particular item in this mat-
ta.—(Hear, hear.) Well, then, if they were prepared
to deal thus with the colonies, were they prepared to
deal thus with England? Because, if that were fitting
for our communities that went out into the wilds of
America, or South Australia, or South Africa, let them
say it should be so here.—(Hear, hear.) He objected
to a church establishment; he wanted to see a separa-
ration between Church and State—(Hear, hear)—and
when he made a motion on that subject as to Ireland,
as he hoped to do on the 28th of this month, he
trusted he should have the sapped of those gentle-
men. It might depend upon his motion. He would un-
undertake it should be so unlike the motion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that it should be perfectly intelli-
gible to everybody.—(A laugh.) lie had tried to under-
stand this motion. lie had asked many of his Hon,
Friends around him to direct their minds to it; he had
gone through it word by word, passage by passage; he
had tried his ingenuity, and puzzled his own brains about
it, but the words, as it were turned round, and he could
not get at the meaning of them.—(A laugh.) (The
Hon. Member read the first part of the motion.) Was it
at all in the scope of the English Church, was it in the
character or spirit of that Church, that the people
should meet together, with the bsshop at their head or
outside, and that in Van Diemen's Land they should
come to the conclusion that if ;he bishop did not accede
to their proposition, then it was to be no proposition,
but if he did accede to it then it was to be a proposition?
What was the ecclesiastical revenue of that state—what
was the item in the miscellaneous estimates brought before
that House to pay the said bishop? [Mr. Gladstone—
" There was no estimate."] Then let them have no bishops.
But there was an estimate ; before many day s they
would find there was an ecclesiastical estimate for all
our—[Several Hon. Members—. No such thing."]
I Well, then, let them pass that by, if they liked—(Hear,
and a laugh)—and when it came before the House he
would point it out to them, and then they would under-
stand the value of that cheer.—(Hear, hear.) He had
fought that question too often in that House not to know
distinctly that there was a constant yearly payment for
the purpose,of the English Church, which he could well
understand with the ordinary feelings of the English
Church, but which he could not understand when they
made that Church, as it were, a separate and independent
establishment, without the pale of the Church of Eng-
land, and of Ireland, deriving support from the House_
It was not what they ought to do as an independent com-
munity; but he denied that character to them. If they
asked for it, he was perfectly willing they should be an
independent community of religionists, but first, as such
a body, they wanted no proposition from that House,
and next, they were about to be under a Legislature in-
dependent of that House, and might be, what they de-
clared they wished to be—like Jumpers."—(A laugh.)
He was told there were three bodies which they recog-
nized—the Church of England, the Church of Rome,
and the Church of Scotland; but this body did not come
within any of those categories, they were of a fantastic
sort of religion, and wished to be considered as some-
thing peculiar in themselves, who wanted all the charac-
teristics of an ancient community, and all the liberty of
any modern community c f religionists that could be de-
vised. But that was not to be permitted. If they belonged to
the Church of England they must submit to its ordi-
nances, and if they did not belong to it, let them call
themselves Dissenters, and be would ask and demand for
them perfect freedom to do what they liked, however
ridiculous it might be—(A laugh)—but let them not ask
the State in any way to sanction any of their proceed-
ings. They were bound then to oppose the proposition
of the Right Hon. Gentleman; it was not a motion which
a Member of the Church of England, as such a member,
ought to propose. If the Right Hon. Gentleman had
proposed it as a " Jumper"—(A. laugh)—he should
have thoroughly understood him, and would have
seconded it; but not having done so he felt bound to
oppose it.
Mr. R. PALMER said be was afraid, from the speech
they had just heard, and from other symptoms which
unfortunately nn one could help perceiving, that we
were approaching times in which the principle on which
an established church was maintained would be dis-
cussed under far different cirumstances from those to
which they had hitherto been accustomed, or those upon
which those who were friendly to the Church, to the
Monarchy, or to the English Constitution, could wish to
see it discussed.—(Elear, hear.) There were men—and
ho believed he was doing no wrong to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman if he inferred from his speech that
he was one of the number—there were men who were
unfriendly to the principle of an established church,
who did not think it beneficial to the great interest of
the country, and who rejoiced at everything that tended
to impair its efficiency or to retard its progress. But
he did not believe that that was the principle upon
which either the House, or the country, or her Majesty's
Government—to whose sincere desire to promote the
best interests of the Church he was most ready to
bear his testimony—he did not believe that
was the principle on which they would oppose the
clause then under the consideration of the House.
The only principle upon which an established church

could ever exist in any country—the only principle on
which it was defensible was, that it was the embodiment
of the religion believed by the mass of the people. The
power which it possessed over the minds of the people
was originally derived—not from their laws or establish-
ment, but from its intrinsic truth and its power over the
consciences of men. Tho Establishment was upheld by
the belief of the people, and not the belief of the people
by the Establishment.—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Roe-
buck.) Therefore in legislating with regard to it, it
had always been the practice to consider what would be
calculated to promote the efficiency of the Church, the
extension of its principles, and to remedy the evils which
might arise within it, without wishing to interfere with
the freedom of other men's convictions. They would
vindicate for others the same liberty of conscience which
they desired for themselves; but they could nut perma-
nently maintain the Church upon any principle incon-
sistent with paying the same respect to liberty of con-
science and belief in Churchmen which they always
extended to every community of Dissenters. The prin-
ciple enunciated by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Sheffield was a tyrannical principle. According to his
principle they would first make the Church their help in
the great work of government, and then turn round on
it and say, " We will make use of the connexion, be-
cause it is useful to us in maintaining the foundations of
soeiety, not for the purpose of extending its efficiency
according to its own principles, but for the sake of
cramping its efficiency and preventing its extension ;
taking care it shall not accommodate itself to the chang-
ing circumstances and wants of mankind, as other reli-
gious communities are able to do. The Church shall
have no such power, but shall be kept in that state in
which it has remained for the last 200 years." It was
idle to say that Parliament could make the requisite
changes. To leave it to Parliament was to say they
should not be made at all. Would that House endure
debates on questions of a purely spiritual character ? It
would be impossible, even if they all belonged to the
same religious community; besides, they were not re-
turned for such a purpose. It came to this, were they to
accept this proposition it being impossible for Parliament
to deal with the subject; or would they assert that
nothing should be done, and that the Church should re-
main in precisely the same attitude in which it had stood
for centuries past ?—(Hear.) If there was any one thing
which caused that increase of ignorance and vice now
growing up throughout the country, it was the want of
provision for the spiritual wants of the people. The
Hon. and Learned Member for Sheffield had spoken of
the convocation as though it were something new in
principle. lie denied that. Every one knew that it was
as much a part of the constitution that the spiritual
wants and necessities of the people should be considered
by the bishops and clergy in convocation, as that their
political wants and necessities should be considered by
that House. Every change since the Reformation had
been made by the convocation, on whose resolutions the
Parliament acted. But in the statutes passed in the
reign of Henry VIII., defining the constitution and the
royal prerogative in matters ecclesiastical, it was dis-
tinctly laid down that the Constitution of England had
always consisted of a temporal and spiritual element,
and that the latter was represented in convocation.
That went down to the reign sof George 11.
When the Prayer-book was last revised, in the
reign of Charles 11., that Monarch stated in the
preface, which any one might see who would take up
his Prayer-book, that, as often as it should be
necessary to consider and debate matters affecting the
spiritual welfare of the Church of England, the convoca-
tion should be consulted.—(Hear, hear.) That was in
active operation down to the'time of George 1., and they
all knew under what circumstances it was stopped. The
Minister of the day appointed a man to be a bishop who
did not hold the doctrine§ of the Church, for Bishop
Headley belonged to the class of Unitarians. The con-
vocation took up the matter, and the Crown suspended
its sittings; and from that time to the present the Crown
had, by suspending the sittings of the convccation, in
principle done the same thine 6 as King Charles attempted
to do when he prevented Parliament meeting from time
time for the dispatch of business. The constitutional
law, however, remained the same, and the convocation
possessed the same functions as ever, and the reason
why no motion was made for its restoration was because
it was a body imperfectly and unsatisfactorily consti-
tuted, and did not furnish a true representation of the
Church of England.—( Hear, hear.) What was desired
was a practical bona fide representation of the feelings
of the Church. Was it a matter of no practical
importance that whilst the power of self-legisla-
tion had been suspended in the Church, they
had seen the great Wesleyan body impelled by
the purest motives, and the most admirable zeal
and piety, breaking off from the Establishment ?—(Hear,
hear.) Was it nothing that they had seen the continual
growth of Dissenters from the Church, which might
easily have been checked had proper steps been taken
in time, and a persistence in the same course could not
fail to result in ever-increasing dissent. The end—if
they persevered in the same policy, even at home—
would be that they would ace the Church fsll to pieces,
and the enemies of the Establishment, being no longer
opposed by the united force of its friends, would inevi-
tably prevail, simply because they refused to give the
Church sufficient internal power and energy to develope
itself in the natural way. With respect to the colonies,
the case was much stronger, because the circumstance;
were different. Take New Zealand and India, for in-
stance, where they had to deal with a large heathen po-
pulation. They had their liturgies, articles, and ser-
vices, all constructed with reference to a nation already
Christian. To say that there should be no authority
capable of determining on the mode of operations neces-
sary with reference to the necessities of a heathen coun-
try, was in substance, to refuse that libertyand natural de-
velopment which was enjoyed •by Roman Catholics,
Presbyterians, and every sort of Protestant Dissenters.
Was it impossible that the Established Church should
hate the same power, and yet be useful to the State?
Look at the Established Church in Scotland. It might
be said that there, too, a secession had taken place.
Granted. But that was due, principally, to a disregard
of the religious opinion, and a desire to carry a tem-
poral law too far and beyond its province, and without
any sufficient necessity; and when they wished to re-
trace their steps it was too late. They did, however, re-
trace their steps. They came down to the House and
proposed a law that if any reasonable cause could be
shown against it, the nominee of the patron should not
have the benefice. Had that been done at the time a
great evil might have been averted. But they had not
taken away the power of self-legislation from the Scotch
Church because of the secession. Upon all these
grounds he had no hesitation in saying that he would
vote for the motion of his Right Honourable Friend,
not merely because he conceived what he proposed to be
necessary—not only because he thought it desirable that
the Church should do the work for which it WIL3 in-
tended, but also because he believed, though circum-
stances hal induced them to impose arbitrary restric-
tions on the Church of England through a long series of
years, and though the imperfect constitution of the con-
vocation might make it impossible to restore it, that be-
fore long some such tribunal must be provided.
Sir G. GREY, without entering at length on the
great question of the connexion between the Established
Churcu and the State, would content himself with
saying that he totally differed from the Hon. and
Learned Member for Sheffield, who wished to see a dis-
union between them. Differing from the Hon. and
Learned Member in that, and anxious as he was to see
the Church made an instrument cf increasing usefulness
to all classes, he could not help deeply regretting the
course taken by some members of the Church, which
had led to proceedings tending to exhibit the Church in
a state of disuniou—(Loud cheers)—thereby impairing
its efficiency, and diminishing its usefulness.—(Re-
newed cheers.) After the speech of the Right lion.
Gentleman, he had not anticipated that they would have
been led into that far wider question recently adverted
to, because the Right Hon. Gentleman based his motion
on their having no Established Church in the colony to
which it applied. All he appeared to ask was that the
Church of England should be placed on the same
footing as other denominations. He had listened
with attention to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, and had read the motion, and his impres-
sion certainly was that the object of it was
to enable the body which he proposed to constitute of
the bishops, clergy, and laity, to make regulations which
should have the force of laws.—(Hear, hear.) True,
they were limited to particular objects, but etill they
would not only be binding on the members of that com-
munion in foto conscientia, but have the force of law.
There was one express provision in which the prero-
gative of the Crown was saved, intimating that with
the exception of that case the prerogative was to be
curtailed. Another provision transferred the power ex-
ercised by the Crown to the Archbishop of Canterbury.
If there were any defects at present existing in the
power of enforcing the ecclesiastical authority by mem-
bers of the Church of Ehgland, the Bill passed by
Lord Stanley gave a remedy by application to the colo-
nial Legislature. The Right Hon. Member fur the Uni-
versity of Oxford, however, was not satisfied with the
constitution of that body, because it was not composed
exclusively of members of the Church of England; but if
the objection was worth anything it applied equally to
the House of Commons. All that had spoken had failed
to convince him that the Church of England in Van Die-
men's Land and New South Wales suffered under any
disability which prevented its bishops, clergy, and mem-
bersb by
v oflruonmt
ay makingr agreement,any whichregul mightstionsth inebypdleatshmeedinintefrosree,
conscientie, just the same as Romanists, Wesleyan:,
them
any other denomination. Why, then, confer on
force of laws? It had been hinted that the
If
England laboured under some special disability. so,
and place the Church
let it be pointed out and removed,
the dangerous power of making regulations
chabvuirnegbthoef
nonotangievr
saplecfoiaolt
pretence of disabilities.—(Cheers:)
t privilegesh et religious
un d
er bodies,tthe specious
paenedi
oduos
Mr. ADDERLEY said the Right lion. Baronet had
challenged them to name any disability under which the
Established Church laboured. The disability was that
the Church could not meet together to pass bye-laws,
oinrgpweciuthliaor
like any other corporation, under the penalties of pra-
munire. The whole object of his Right Hon. Friend's
motion was simply that the members of the Church
might bo able to meet and pass bye 'awe, without
licences from the Crown. That was the disability, and
if they were prepared to remove that, he asked no more.
But he contended that it was a disability, and that not
an argument bad been urged in its defence.— (Hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that some
mysterious power was being asked for by the Church of
were proposed by the Right Hon.
to make a sort of imperiuni
Epznionewigmnlei apbr nsee drr
oi,
off ao
osrl
legislation
were to have extensive
reduon it that would bind
every man, woman, and child, and enable it even to ira-
tgithfbiseel i
atcUtibonunivreecos—nit conferred
if it
pose penalties. But nothing of the sort was proposed.
And, with regard to the provisos, his Right Hon. Friend
had stated his willingness to postpone them, in order to
give the Government an opportunity of deciding upon
Isome meats of relieving the Church from the disability
of which it now complained. His Right Hon. Friend
had moved, and he (Mr. Adderley) took the proposition

' and should vote upon it simply as it stood, that it
should be lawful for the ,bishops and officers of the
Church of England to meet together without incurring
penalties. The Hen. and Learned Member for Sheffield
appeared to think, which he (Mr. Adderley) had
never heard before, that it was essential to the character
of the Church of England to be connected with the
state. This was the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's
whole and sole argument—that whereas the Church of
England was connected with the state in this country,
therefore it should be connected with the state in the
colonies ; that it should be put on a footing of
equality with the Jumpers. He did not know exactly
what the Hon. and Learned Gentleman meant by that;
but the position of the Church in the colonies was, that
whereas it was not fairly connected with the state there,
in England it was connected with the state; that in the
colonies it was only partially connected with the state,
and that the connexion was such that it had all the dis-
ability and none of the advantages. That was the simple
position of the Church in the colonies. It was just so
far connected with the state as to be unable to act for
itself, without a single privilege being given in return
for that disability ; and it only asked that it should be
placed up m the'same footing as other religious denomi-
nations, and have the power of making bye-laws for itself
in the same manner as any common corporation in this
country, and no more.

Mr. lIUME said he took it for granted that no court
of justice in the colonies would allow a prosecution for
prcentunire; and he thought that nothing could be more
dangerous to the peace and welfare of the colonies than
for Parliament to give any one sect privileges such as
were now asked for.—(Divide, divide.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that if he were
of opinion that the rejection of the clause would impair
the Church of England in the colonies, it would not be
opposed by him.—(hear.) As he understood it, the
principal objection to the existing system was, that the
members of the Church of England had not a church
government to refer to—that having the establishment
and the ministry of the Church, they had not the courts
of the Church to control and direct them. It was true,
that, on the first institution of bishops in the colonies, it
was thought that the Crown could give them the power
of establishing these courts. But upon further investi-
gation it was ascertained that it could not be done. He
apprehended, however, that it was by no means necessary
to the efficiency of the Church in the colonies that
there should be ecclesiasticrl courts and ecclesiastical
censures, or any of the various modes for the govern-
ment of the Church which were established in this coun-
try; and that it was quite enough, if there were grounds
of complaint, that parties connected with the Church
should be placed on a footing with other denominatiens
The Hon. Member for Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) had
stated that there was an objection to the parties meeting
together and arranging the conduct of the affairs of the
Church, because they were apprehensive that they would
render themselves liable to a premunire ; but surely the
Hon. Gentleman must be aware:that the statutes of pre-
munire were territorial enactments, and were not applica-
ble to the colonies at all. If these parties were to be
upon an equality with other persuasions, let them do as
other persuasions had done, establish rules amongst
themselves, by mutual consent, for their own govern-
ment. But if this were not adequate, what, then,
was the proper course to be adopted in this
Bill? The principle of the measure was that
of self-government in the colonies, and yet it was
now desired to insert an exception to that principle, and
create a concurrent authority to make particular laws
upon particular subjects. But, in order to see the dan-
gerous character of the proposition, it was necessary to
look at the terms of the Right Hon. Gentleman's mo-
tion. Ile did not propose that the bishops, clergy, and
laity should meet and 'establish a simple Church
government for the conduct of their ecclesiastical
affairs, but meet from time to time, and when
they did meet, to make provision for meeting for the
same purpose thereafter. What did the Right Hon.
Gentleman mean by the conduct of ecclesiastical affairs ?
Did ho mean the alteration of the Church service or the
making of regulations for the direction of those who
were members of the Church ? He left the question
entirely vague. It was impossible to understand it. But
if they took the provisos it would be seen that they gave
power even to impose pecuniary penalties. It they
adopted a clause of this sort, as applicable to the colo-
nies, why not have a similar enactment for thit country?
It was supported neither by practice nor precedent, and
ought not to ho adopted.
Mr. WALPOLE could not but think, from the re-
marks which had fallen from Mr. Labouchere, Sir G.
Grey, and the Attorney-General, that the object of the
proposed clause was totally misunderstood by the Go-
vernment. If the object were, as it was supposed, to
give pre-eminence to the Church of England, he for one,
considering the circumstances of the colonies, would not
assent to the proposition. But he thought he could
satisfy the House that, in point of fact, this clause
simply proposed to put the Church of England upon
the same footing in the colonies as the other religious
denominations, so that they might manage their own
affair 3. His Hon. and Learned Friend had stated that
if they chose to meet together and form arrangements
for themselves, they could do so without subjecting
themselves to any fine; but he forgot that by the sta-
tute of Henry VIII., whereby the clergy were to
submit to the Crown in all their proceedings, none of
the clergy or members of the Church could meet to-
gether and make regulations for themselves without
the assent of the Crown, unless they subjected them-
selves to severe fine or imprisonment. He presumed
that when a colony was constituted in a distant pos-
session of the Crown, and the Church of England was
established there, it carried with it the laws of the
Church, and that the Church could not have free action
except in obedience to and in compliance with those
laws, the consequence of which was, that if a clergyman
in the colonies disobeyed the injunction of the spiritual
head of his Church there were no means whatever of en-
forcing obedience. The motion would not establish a,
legislative authority in the Church, but merely allow:
it to make its own arrangements, and then enforce them
in the civil courts in the same way as the arrangements
of any other religious body might be enforced in those
courts. That being so, surely it was most unreasonable
for the Government to refuse their assent to the motion.
Let them remember that they did not want to establish
consistorial courts. The Church merely asked, not
pre-eminence, but equality, and if that equality were
denied, it would remind him of those days when, in the
history of our own country, there was toleration granted
to everybody but members of the Church of England,
and they were refused the free permission to use, either
in public or in private, the common prayers of the Church
of England.—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. GLADSTONE, in reply, said all he asked was,
that the House should give to the members of the
Church of England, in the Australian colonies, the same
power, neither more nor less, and the same means, nei-
ther more nor less, which were at this moment possessed
and exercised by every other religious body in the colo-
nies.—(Loud eheers.) And most willing was he to sub-
mit to any limitations, and any phraseology which could
bo devised or suggested, for the purpose of securing that
ho should gain nothing more than that object.—(Hear,
hear.) Moreover, he could say this, that if he received
from her Majesty's Government a pledge that they would
examine the subject with the means they possessed.
would ascertain, to the best of their power, the state of
the law, and would engage that that same power and no
other, which all voluntary religious societies possessed
in the colonies, should be secured to the members of the
Church of England in the colonies, he would withdraw
the clause.—(Bear, hear.)
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the clause

Against it
Majority —Bs

Tho cluso Was accordingly lost.

Mr. ANSTEY mov,d the addition of the following
clause:—" And be it enacted, that the said island of Van
Diemen's Land shall, from and after the passing cf this
Act, be named and styled Tasmania; and that the said
island, together with the several dependencies of the
acne, shall firm one and the same colony, and be styled
and reputed as the colony of Tasmania." He thought
that as the name of Port Philip had been changed to
that of Victoria, that of Van Diemcn's Land might be
changed to Tasmania—the name that was generally
adopted in the colony itself.
Mr. WYLD seconded the motion.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE would prefer that the old name
to which they were accustomed should be continued. It
was hardly worth while, however, to raise a discussion
on the point without the opinion of the colony
being ex-
pressed upon it.
The clause was negatived without a division.
Mr. ANSTEY said the next clause he had to pro-
pose was one on which he really must take a division.—
(Laughter.) It was as follows:—" And be it enacted,
that the first writs for the election of the several legis-
lative councils of the said colonies of Victoria, Van
Diemen's Land, South Australia, and Western Australia
respectively, shall, as soon as conveniently may be after
the passing of the several ordinances constituting the
same, be issued by the governors, lieutenant-governors,
or persons actually administering the government of the
said colonies respectively, and that such ordinances shall
have and obtain the force of law from and immediately
after the passing thereof respectively, anything in the
;aid recited Act contained to the contrary in anywise
notwithstanding."
No Hon. Member having seconded the motion, it fell
to the ground amidst the laughter of the House.
Mr. WYLD moved the addition of clauses for the pur-
pose of creating an executive council in the colony, com-
posed of the principal officers of the state, who should
have the direction and control of the convicts there.

In this case also there was no seconder, and the mo-
tion was therefore not put from the Chair.
Mr. E. DENISON and Mr. MowATT both postponed to
the third reading cf the Bill the amendments of which
they had given notice.
The report on the Bill was then received, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.

DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND RE-
PAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the order of the day for the third reading of this
Bill,
Mr. DISRAELI asked if the Irish Franchise Bill,
which was fixed for Friday, would come on first on that
day ?
Sir G. GREY said it was the intention of his Noble
Friend to bring it on first.
Mr. DISRAELI—The Stamp Acts Bill was also fixed
for Friday?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
state on Friday what he should do respecting that
na:asure.
Mr. STAFFORD said relative to the Bill before the
House, that in order to advance 300,000 L, they made the
property of Ireland to the amount of 4,700,0001, liable,
and placed it solely at the disposal of one man, instead
of the measure being a boon to Ireland, it was going
upon the old, miserable, disastrous system of compelling
those unions that managed their accounts
well to pay for
those that managed their accounts ill. He wished to
know whether the Chancel,lor of the ExchEquer would

have any objection to lay before the House a copy,A •
directions to the county cess collectors in Irelastl3.; -.-;:- ‘ p..
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEctouL4 .. - .
the least.
s'' '"-P7' P'*:l:-:ltei: 6
The Bill was then read a third time at4seetik ;=, ''''l`,"'
f THE DEFECTS OF LEASES ACT tAh/BNDIMIT 7 r..,'
BILL. • -- . .-.,.; tiN\ It
- ~.4,,,, -\,
This Bill was read a third time and passed. ' ...,'? !:',,*Aix e .
t 4 yi
SLAVE-GROWN SUGAR. " -, l't; l'. p,,,,,
Sir E. BUXTON stated that he had receive , d '.c‘tir
evening a notice from the First Lord of the TresSn 4/44-4,,,
the effect that he was indisposed, and it would bliiinbon,!:o—,'”
venient for him to attend in the House to-morrow.;This
induced him to postpone his motion respecting slave-
grown sugar. Whilst he intended then to put off his
motion he threw himself upon the generosity of the
Noble Lord and of the Government to give him another
day, so that the subject might undergo discussion during
this session.

Mr. DISRAELI observed that the Hon. Baronet
spoke of the generosity of the Government, when, in
point of fact, they in a spirit of justice ought to offor
another day to the Hon. Baronet.—(Hear, hear.) He
was sure it would be very agreeable to the House that
they did so.— (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
that there could be no doubt the Government would feel
itself bound to give the Hon. Baronet another day.
MONEY. PAYMENT OF ADVANCES OF WAGES
(IRELAND) BILL.

This Bill passed through Committee.
REGISTRATION OF DEEDS BILL.
This Bill passed through Committee. To be re-
committed on Friday.
CONVICTS' PRISONS BILL.
This Bill was read a second time. To be committed
on Monday next.

SUPPLY.
Mr. DISRAELI wished to know what day would be
fixed for a Committee of Supply.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
it would not come on before Monday.
ASSESSED TAXES.
Mr. BLACKSTONE gave notice he would bring on
his motion tomorrow (this day).
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
A brief discussion took place as to the second reading
of the Bill, which was finally agreed to. To be com-
mitted that day fortnight.
MEDICAL CHARITIES BILL.

Sir W. SOMERVILLE stated this Bill would be
brought forward that day week.
PETTY SESSIONS (IRELAND).
Sir W. SOMERVILLE obtained leave to bring in
a Bill to amend the laws regulating the proceedings at
petty sessions, and the duties of justices of the peace
out of quarter sessions, in Ireland.
The House then adjourned at Half-past Twelve.