The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-12 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, March 11.
RAILWAY AUDIT BILL.
Tho Earl of GRANVILLE moved the second reading
of the Railway Audit Bill. The former Audit Bill had
been so violently opposed in the House of Commons that
the Government had been obliged to give it up, although
some of those who most violently opposed it were in fa-
vour cf a Government audit. In the following session
the Railway Audit Bill of the Noble Lord (Monteagle)
was passed unanimously by their Lordships, but it was
not carried through the Commons in con-
sequence of the opposition of the railway in-
terest. In the following session their Lordships had
appointed a Select Committee on the subject, before
which it had been stated by persons connected with
railway companies that railway audits as at present con-
ducted were mere moonshine. A Bill founded on the
report passed their Lordships' House, bat was withdrawn
from the House of Commons because it would be impossible
to pass it in the fees of the determined opposition of the
railway directors, without adding a month to the length
of the session. Some time since a Bill had been pre-
pared by the North-Western proprietors, which they
found they could not sanction, and therefore he had
introduced the present Bill as a Government measure.
He had this day had an interview with a deputation
on this subject, but he felt bound, in justice to that
blouse, in justice to the Noble Lord, in justice to the
public ,in justice to railway shareholders themselves, to
persevere with his Bill, the object of which was to secure
a just, a true, and an independent audit of railway ac-
counts. The great objection made to other Railway Audit
Bills had been that they tended to increase the patronage
of the Government. No such objection could be made to
the present Bill, and he hoped that that circumstance
would facilitate its passage through the House of Com-
mons. He had already explained the provisions of that
Bill, and he hoped their Lordships would consent to the
second reading.
Lord STANLEY ought perhaps to apologise to their
Lordships for addressing them, as ho had no prac-
tical knowledge on the subject, as he had nevi r
possessed a railway share. But he had that
morning had the honour of receiving a deputation from
the railway companies, representing a paid-up
capital of 119,000,0001. Had they proposed to resist
an audit he would have been the last to have assisted
them, but within the last three or four days the delegates
of the companies had prepared a measure for securing
an independent audit. The deputation had stated
several objections to the Government Bill, and ho was
sure his Noble Friend would agree with him that it
would be better, if possible, to secure the con-
sent of the different railway companies to the
audit scheme ; and he now held in his hand
a printed draft of a Bill emanating from de-
legates of these companies, in which those benefits
were secured, while the objections to the Government
Bill was obviated. These gentlemen objected
to giving to any other persons such control
over the railway property of this country as the audi-
tors would possess under the present Bill.
They also objected to the degree of control
which the Government would have over these auditors.
They objected to the Government having the power of
keeping these auditors in office, notwithstanding
the opposition of the companies ; they also ob-
jected to the Government haying the power of
fixing the salaries of the auditors and their officers, and
they objected to giving the Government the power
of fixing the quota which each company should contri-
bute towards tho common audit fund. lie thought the
Bill would create a vast amount of expense, which
would fall very heavily on railway companies at the
present moment, when all of them were paying such
small dividends, and some none at all ; and he, there-
fore, thought they were justified in objecting to a mea-
sure which would cause them so large additional ex-
pense without any adequate compensating advantage.
He considered the Bill was too late, as the danger at
present was not of shareholders trusting too much to
their directors, but rather of their placing too little
confidence in them. The shareholders, however, did
not so much object to an audit, as to the power of
auditing their own accounts being taken out of their
own hands. If the directors do not attend to the re-
commendations of the auditors, the latter are to have the
power of laying their recommendations before the
shareholders. There were various minor provisions to
discover and prevent abuses. There were also powers
given not connected with the audit. The directors
were prohibited from holding proxies at the expense of
the company, except on certain occasions. That was an
important controuling check, and only one director was
at a time. his object was to lay before their
Lordships the objections entertained against the Bill by
the delegates of the railway companies, and if the Noble
Lord pressed the second reading that night he hoped
that ho understood that discussion was not precluded at

a future stage of the Bill. He hoped his Noble Friend
would not hurry the Committee, and that the case would
receive the deliberate attention of their Lordships. With
that understanding he should not oppose the motion.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that it was admitted on all
hands that the state of railway accounts was such that
it should not be left in its present condition. Better
machinery should be substituted for that on which they
at eresent relied. This was the fourth year their Lord-
ships were called upon to discuss the question, and they
had coat down Bills to the Commons which bad not Leon
fret in a legislative and amending spirit. Had that been
done, they might have provided the shareholders with
an effective measure, His objection to the measure wsa
of an opposite character to that of his Noble Friend op.
pesite (Lord Stanley). He believed that it was a great
misfortune that railway companies bad been left with-
out efficient supervision. That was a greater blow to
that interest than any they had yet sustained. It had
encouraged speculation of every kind, without regard to
check or security of any kind. Nobody trusted railway
Recounts, as they were now prepared. There was no con-
fidence generallyi No doubt there was confidence in bo-
dies cf directors, but ho did not speak of the integrity of
individuals, but of the system of keeping accounte•
Take the Caledonian Railway. They had the greatest
portion of the capital stock of the company diterted
to purposes for which it never was intended, and yet
no one could suspect the integrity of Mr. Hope John-
stone. All that was now wished was that the accounts
laid adore the shareholders should be true and sincere,
that they might rely on their correctness. It was n"
intended to give Government avower of internal inter-
ference. There was no such intention in this Bill. ne
believed further, that in many instance s‘they could net
depend upon the shareholders themselves. Their title
was of an evanescent and transitory nature, and vcryf
different from the possessors of property. A threat A
a falling dividend would always have great effect, an"
the shareholders not beine a sufficient check, they
wanted the che_k of a ptiblie representative and cone
troling power. There should be one independent On
with the power of making a special report. They e,l'ul
then see whether the accounts had been " cooked.' lt
cti
was true what his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley) had sal
in reference to proxies. The use of these proxies oft“!
led to the most flagrant of all abuses. In one case that NO
come under his notice the directors held 11,000
share:,
which were " sleeping" with respect is dividend
but alive in the hands of the directors
for all other purposes. He thought Govern-
ment should appoint one auditor out of the three. Tl!,,e
legal and Parliamentary expenses should not be paid
until taxed. In the Bill of last year there was a elan"
that no more than 50 per cent. of these costs should
th bet
paid until they had been taxed, When they knew s
the legal and Parliamentary expenses of all the railway'
as returned to Parliament, amounted to 10,000,0001,
they would see the necessity of a check. Into those Bills
the most extraordinary and illegal items had been
tof
eluded. The expenditure upon illegal poreh"es
shares on other lines had been presented to shareholdcr
in the lump, under the head of leaal and ParliamentarY,
expenses. How could shareleoldr's detsct these Megal
purchases, under such circumstances ? lle considel-ed
that the present system of railway audit was nothing
but mere moonshine, and considered that it would lee
more beneficial to all the railways in England to pay'
double the present sum paid by them fur an cff.:ctive and
beneficial audit, thin half the present sum for the present
system, where the return was useless and inefficient.
Lord STANLEY said that he did not think that sots
ficient protection was given to the shareholders by
Bill, and that he therefore intended that one on a heart
principle should be recommended to the notice of the
Committee ere long.
Lord COLCHESTER did not consider this Bill 9'
matter that solely interested the shareholder or the di"
reetor, but was one of far more ermanent importance,
as it was it question onp tho one hand betw-ee
Parliament and the companies, end the other between the
public and the same companies. He considered that 1:
was the duty c-f Parliament whenever it granted
n,
to any of those companies, to ascertain a healer
money had been dis'sursed in the manner specified by tn'
borrower; and his motive far making that allusion wa'
(-
because he knew Viet money borrowed under such peed
tences by the directors of a certain line did not exPees
the loan of 800.0001. on railways, but in quite a differens
manner.
Earl GRANVILLE said that be assured the Noble,.
Lord, that this Bill would give every satisfaction to
Parliament, the public, the directors, and the glare;
holders, for the auditors to be appointed according,
the provisions of the Bill would be independent and jai'
partial persons.
Lord BEAUMONT said that from what he under"
stood from the speech of tiro Noble Lord (Lord Starr;
Icy), he ieferred that that Nubia Lord
sending up aeuther Bill of a similar nature before
objectious
the Committee ; if mo, he should have no
to such a proceeding, but he was free to confelr
that he saw great difficirlies in the Bill before ale
Lordships, and apprehended as greet from that °f t r
Noble Lord (Lord Stenlev), because he feared that eithfr,
Bills would nut establish the certainty of a perfect tan
ee to
intends
and particularly because the present Bill gave P? ""rn
the delegates of railway cernpanies to be their 0
auditors, which he ceneidered far from eing either sic:A
ful or imartial, fur he thou hthat auditors
independent
of all companies, and until such eva3 the
udie
g t
ease he could have no faith in the returns of such 5 a
tors. He felt assured that if that principle were that
on, that it would cause more harm than benefit, an" 'lle
it would completely ehaks public confidence. Ile w°,71,.0
ask their Lordships aas this Bill intended for the 131"0"t
strenuously
or fur the shareholders? If the latter he sheula out
should
oppose it, for he looked upon the directors
and shareholders as so many trustees who undertake
how estutely scare of
certain duties for the public interest. lie was well aware
up their accounts, fir on one line with which he 'sir.
connected he f eind, after an investigation into the coni
no further capital to lea expended.—(
dition of the accounts, that there were no dividends, VI:
these gentleman auditors cook
r o
the whole he considered that this Bill would bendero. '.3,5
u its
use if independent auditors were not appointed
provisions.—(Hear, hear.) • don
Earl GRANVILLE said that his principal ohtec
this
to ally delay that might be occasioned by Eending ast
Laughter.)
Bill before a Commit: ee was, that a similar Bill
session had been totally lost, to the great disadvantag egg
the public and
its second reading.
shareholders. He should therefore Pr'
Tho Bill was then read a second time.
RAILWAYS ABANDONMENT BILL. .11"
The House resolved itself into committee on this
Bill.
Lord REDESDALE raised some technical objections
to three of the clauses
cietionary power relat-ive to compensation was most un-
just.
because he considered that dis-
Lord BEAUMONT said that he considered that the
answer given in evidence before the Committee on 3!
Bill ought to be sufficient for his Lordship (Lord
dale), He should himself move some verbal am
endeeen"
on the third reading.
The Bill then passed through
Committee, and
the
House then resumed.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE brought up a report
of the returns
of the Poor-law Commissioners, and their
Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMO.NS, March 11,
ARMY ESTIMATES. it'd
Mr.. P. MAULE (in continuation from our Third
wasatstn99o2B, expensew iottb
Edition) said—The result of the whole then was Oa,:
aaexpeus e
of
the number of men voted for hi 1849-50 was 113 84!
4,356,750/., while for
ference of 14,719 men with a reduction of 420,1611.
(Hear hear)—but if he included the non-effective ser-
vice the decrease was 501,438/. But he would camp
those 1
the army estimates for the present year witb
1335, and he would show his lion. Friend (Mr. Cobde!le
that they were much nearer the level of 1835 than 13_,.
3,936,91882510:1 the numb:4.f
had any idea of. The army and militia charges fors 82f,
1835 he did not mean to say
were. 6,016,643/ ; for 1850-1 they were 6,019, But
king a diflereuce of only 2 604/.—(Hear, hear') fur
that
yroaking a ctie
though they had so nearly approached the estimeattoesstay
there, if, consistently with the duties theythe :Ivreerd t° re
estimates
we, the army, and the country, they
:iates below those of that year.--(th-ar' umber
Having now stated the case with regard to the
_ho
of. the army, and the estimates for its rnamtenericeeo 9
wished to make a few remarks with regard tot the st P.
which had been taken of late promotes he disci.
which years to
pline, the comforts,the er°33'.
and the good character of ,:ch
And first -
with regard to the military prison, vv,rfuo
was
sesd considerably to the army estimates since 1830,;
could brinbgear.)
cliaPrrancvteenr3
happy to be able to inform the House that thatiela,
covered by the sums deducted from their puY• -"Ili' the
. matter of minor consideration compared wit a
improvement
!oat' ,
numberof bet °`
eonft
thew h iaerhmlymda takens
evinced
the
eonuudpu c t al: 0
young persons committed to prison. The nura
g_.
dmen committed to military prisons had beneniB4ll,
the duallynumbecreasing during the last three years. 1 yibo
1,590; in number
1 000
were committed amounted to 1 126- in 1848 098', f
1849, to 589 TT , /
of
•n
0
of persons under 20 years of age,. in
two years' service' in 1848'
_.....r....ear, hear.) The number o.r 030--
committed in 1847 was 1,656, , 00
(1-1
lie felt quite s
that under thou resent .
ear, hear.) e L be array
0 present system of education in t
re
.._.
the numb
—(lie number of committals would still further dec_ll.7,.
which —(Hear, hear.) He might also state that a regal !Irau:
. was recently made, ordering that the men eu
mated to pr. re
re,
should have their hours of sleep _
lated as if the tore,
allowing y aere on guard, instead of as hereto.
..9
them
a constant succession of good 131,6°.`t.
rest,
had
been attended with' the most salutary rnu'A
and those who had been subjected to this treatment 13*
not come bad( to prison • • --(11-e°'
again for a long time. the
hear,
and laughter.) With reand to the health of _
army, a great deal had been done of late years respectru;
with P
mote it. He had the returns
of mortality w
to the army serving the
nao. e
abroad. With regard to te but
tality of the army at home he had not any returns,sn
thy was happy to say that with respect to the late vi We
ton of the cholera, it had not fallen so severely urnie4,
army as it had en civilians. But the returns of lair.
.witli respect to the army showed a gm at improven3ol
In British Guiana during 1848-9, the mortality,
now,
had_.
been 97 in 1,000 on an average of thee 3 years. Was nowil
only 14.—(ilear.) Ia Trinidad, the mortality, w4ic
had been 102 in the 1,000 on an average of btLeair
)errs, was now only 33.—(1Icar, hear.) In the other
foreign stations there was generally a similar dimietc2
tine, thoug
er
h in a few there arp.:ared a slight increase. 1
mortality. The following we the rates of mortality
per 1,000 of the rtzength among the troops servinglB ,T:
foreign stations for the year ending March 31, 4"
compared with the average of the previous 10 years 7
British Guiana, 1848 9, 14.2, average of previous 1
years, 97,9; Trinidad, 33.0, average 102.9; obar,
28.6, average 75.9; Grenada, 12.3, average 43.4; St'
Vincent's, 6.0, average 66.1; Barbadocs, 128,8, average
142 9; St. Lucie, 17 4, average 67.6; Dominica,
average 132.3; Antigen, 10.9, average 63.9; St. Kitts'
19.4, average 105.6; Windward and Laetvard combine.

1,4,

at

~c~

;Ile,/",(. 67.6; Je.maice, .18.3, average 66.9; Gib-
-11.1; .M.sitl, 30.1, a verage 15.1;
1t27.,"'"(1,, 23 I, arcrage IS 5; B. raevia, 8.4. ever-
otewforintlland, 10.3, over ace 9.1; Nova Scotia
11:utts Nick, 19.7, a;Ti age 13.0; Cattatla, 15.6,
'key 12.6; luta, 8.1, average 15.4; Cape 0:
IleN,'.l)", 13.3, arerege 12 9; the Matiri;ius, 14.6,
~l'etaa, 2;13; Cry 100, 21.5, average 41,1; Mad, as, 22.4,
/441; (F 1 21) years 76.1; 11')ngal (the re:uril from this
itt 7;7'n• the year ( siding Merch 31, IS4S), 61 3,
c' aver-
ST4I naulhey, 96 6, alertige 62 5; New Seuth
ep,`l,l New Z etated, 8 3, aver age of 10 years 11.0;
,ee'elelarri's Land, 9 6, average 14.0. In consequence
raiiaitnprovemcnt..; in the West Indica the troops
ki,:uf there WC re now tie healtlty as in any other of
Pod tar brations._(ll,..ar, hear.) Now, v‘ith re-
'Ulan the sYstein of education for the army, it had been
i,lacarry out tee plan which had lite') previou,ly
w!th gre are and skill by his predecessor
kl,f;• The :rats quarterly returns showed hat in 18
cehools, that system was flJurit•litegt, and that
who attended them we-is 2 289 non-cona-
Npr" ofil?rs.-(llear, hear.) When that system
t',fliPerly matured, he belkvtd that a liettt.r (-ducat 11
ItOe„ Wen wool i not be found a ,y where than chess
It -It.
ail °• •eal her May sty's army.-( le ar.)
~"'11,1a.'",11 to lea able to say that she Cumenande.r-in-
teqs rbte:nlitottl in applying he satne system to
,1411g7,`,.1 class of the army, I. r nothing could more
Ll'trv;„‘'ll'l to diolinish that respect whirl) it was nc-
in0t74,14% the s shoold entertain toe ards his su-
'olll'"l,er than the =t .e that the soldier
lldecor=
truce
I°4 hoes 1 to be cup rior in point of knowledge
tietr.,uee-ior effiear.-(llear, hear.) The Cem-
'44 f, therefore, woull insist that every
14 °aid undergo an examination bett,ro htl entered
it Y' in du.) and not very distant time he hoped
'.1)1.,„4'4ti0n would be more widely applied, sod that
twatwould he promoted to the reek of captain
441 etul`lerg.ing a second examination. lie had now
,titiee" grounds on which he thought 99,128 men
oc,,e'al'Y for the service of the country. Ile had
"p,":-'''"d to show that the charge for the erfectiee
A° t f 'fac:tit-3 service had been duly e teended to in
?,tlip,"'°llomy. Ile had shown what had been done
leap, NV with respect to dnxipiine, health, and c du-
eptjt' he tell the House, on authority which
huh teed to respect and credit from the House, when
Alh'tireoria with regard to the discipline of an
41t ass to both officers and men the British army
ttate of which the country might well be proud;
,tl
tlleka' Prepared tat all points to meet the enemy, land
men time had every disposition, at all times and
to live in peace arid harmony and good
;the P with its fellow-citizens in every part, not only
l''ltioepti°ll,EltrY, but in the exteneive coloairs which ap-
-I,opot':°,_it•-(Clieer.)
4.111„". oaring teen put,
ME said that be most heartily concurred in
I),'"'„uding portion ( f his Right Hon. Friend's
140" was happy to find tha: so much l.al been
• ile4arrarante the discipline, the health, and cducation
j(I,Y.-(Elear hear.) It was a great satisfaction
,101;pd ~.."'° had so long contended for the abolition of
t 7,111 the army, that a different system had been
1)a1 ;,;lteiat‘°lk so well, and to be attended with so much
';'• Ile had heard from the present distiu-
-111tulltaitler-in-Coi4 that the number of lashes
tta°lla time should now be limite-1 to 50, and it
tatisfaction t have heard him say that even
tqb`r h in d (EC hear.)
t time be rc uce ea ,
~'p gl'd tb • better barrack accommodation had
a
41" s "P"d for the soldiers. He never sail the pay of
Attt'-'isl3,_t,offieers was too high. The only difference
,iatieun between him and his Right lion. Friend
littcjithe numbers of the army. In 1828 the actual
I,:ereaue raised was 15,500,0004 But in con-
e great outcry being raised against the
•itittal;". that time, a Committee was appointed, and
„:5414 to the extent of 5,000,0001. were effected
he 5• In that year the revenue was 50,000,0001.,
141.3 sorry to ray that since that time
la increased the expenditure, except during
,•4 t,,
ittteis years. lie maintained, however, that
ttlipr, no necessity for the increase during the in-
; ttite;Years, They had not yet heard the financial
ttoftl,ol the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chan-
' '2l) Exch-quer, but he thought he might take
i.l•4tlb(littire for- the 'present year, allowing for reclue-
''bliteeetwans 50,000,0001. and 51,000,000/. There
atat;:e way of reducing the expenses of the army,
"triii"4s by reducing the number of men. The va-
A itat.
Y and naval Committees that had sat up to
I,,,leitereeent period had invariably been recona-
ta'l,e,';',,refer to the model of 1792, in the time of
•"ta a 0, as a means of enabling the country to
character, and be provided with a full ex-
A, to ,
s. Produce the sinews of war whenever events
litter such a measure necessary. Instead of
4siti
() of the the expenditure and husbanding their re-
that way, they had been not only expending
it Yea the revenue, but within the last ten or
',the vra they had added no less than 40,0:10,0001. to
tlrttli'lbo Country. Here was no less than 13,000
'ttp, Inarease which 1-al been accounted for in eon-
,•lsh,! the rebellion in Canada. Tee rebellion was
Vai,er were net the men gone too ?-(Hear, hear.)
at'ed that in the year 1835-6 the Dumber of
was 80,000; in 1847 it had increased to
lthe.. 'B4B, matters not being e et settled in Ca-
,l'ldearistiznher of troops bad been increased to 93,000.
lat4"°0(1 that two-thirds of the troops were kept
al relief.and therefore it was that he and
eare,o,, e _
pyt``,ranl Members hid supported. the. proposi.-
leadaolisheig colonial corps, believing that it
t° a considerabie reduction. In 1846 thethe
men voted was 108,000, and in the following
'al,tll-tntriber was 113,000. He (Mr. Hume) bad op-
a,and proposed that they should go back to
;;Clia'n' and the followine,. year to 95,000. " No,"
areremeer o we want 113.000 men, because •
' te h
it - are some regica(nts sent to India, where ,
awaylt,4,h,,„'' Well, these was peace now in India,
eoel not the e 13, 000 men be taken ofl? He
s
tiadi
extra men required were paid for by the
q,i4t-s-'`lapany, and therefore he would not refer to
itatih; but if the Government objected to reducing
'
1g0f,,,r cif already employed, why not stop re-
a. One year?-(Meer.) He found, from the re-
kNo -4 the table that every year there were 11,000
Ih*oet'4,,n enlisted, and if they stopped.for one year
t'aea something. He came now to the vote for
C
010.l1,ta3eaa 99,000 men, and he contended that the
'4ltsh ' Gentleman hid not stated one single valid
‘irppot they should have so large a force. What
!f,,,q,000`' to the Committee a a-, that thoy should
la'atatiarnen for the present year, and 80,000 for
iltei,,"g Year, which would in his opinion be am-
',,,,t4till,;nt for all purposes, wad produce a considera-
.!i Itii;" Then there was the promotion system,
tl'ltlet disgrace to their army. lie had hoped to
Qile t away with altogether, and the men raised
at auks according to their merit. They were
Present upon the mercantile system in the
I,,tttls' ha hell to be entirely wrong. With re-
',te,taYs for India, he had no wish to see any re-
;!ts,,,,•alaed there longer than ten years. He knew
‘sti°llllent that had been obliged to remain there •
e3s
of than 18 years, and he certainly should not
tinY reduction that would inflict on the army
Itp pan 10 years' service in India. He would re-
bra „lease that in the ye ar 1792 the number ( f
45,292 for England, Ireland, and the colo-
st.'4lllttY were not probably prepared for such a rc-
yla ellesente but it was quite possible by and by,
thp,°lonies had become their own managers, and
elah.'4l.would take upon themselves their own police
arrangements - the time he bad no
come, although he might not live
ahte,",an the establishment of 1792 would be found
''tlin„Dte He contended that there was nothing
titt4ent circumstances of the country to warrant
'l,4lNl:xlare beyond 80,000 men ; no cause had been
‘t,eoil,`;Pt that of standing well with other conti-
YLseielslos, and maintaining a large army because
yet) Itussia maintained them. That was not tne
had heard such an argument used. It had
Y, thn Government when an increase of the
td tieit,;4''erl for on a former occasion, the reason as-
Vtta s g that France had done so. He had felt it
.9
the °Pause tbat proposition at the time. Why,
were going to fight the battle of Waterloo
pi akiTeetaless they were going to fight the battles
Attest !bent as they had done before, there could be
',gm,' tor so large a force. Ho thought the addition
y. eeee
at et made of 600 millions to their deft by the
lad °old put it out of the power of any
10%14 i Govern-
• 50,0 i tr
ouse of Commons to commit so great a
iletf Let the Government give the people the re-
-011111 Lthe reductions they required, and let them
"Vla)%' fn. their safety upon the contentment and
Vitkilici-eas and loyalty of the people, instead of upon
,Itl,l4te, Police A large standing army had always
\tvriurite doctrine of the Tories, but he never ex-
?is ta find it the doctrine of the Whigs. It would
iSet ;the place where they sat had something infec-
-,:teta; laugh)-because he could bring from
th; Tories
of the Noble Lord (J. Russell)
~ories in times past not to trust to bayonets
yati-Plitary establishments, but to depend on the
11 -"
good feeling of the people. Now the Noble
o:ctaall
ke y ready to assert that these establishments
,1,44;pt up to maintain the honour and dignity of
~101;:t:a .1.• • Ile wished to show how the various pro-
o'r- the army had been altered. In 1835-6 the
.Var i cavalry and household troops was 10,810 it
`l,ian'll 1850, 19,850. The Foot Guards were, in
,•!la'te ;; they were now 5,260. The infantry of the
41 1835, 7 9, 722. in the present year they were
,V,Reet a,' colonial corps were, in 1835, 5,592; in
-I,3'ear they were 9,988. The eggregate force,
".o,4tnee former period, was 100,990; and. at the.s
,a,oritjbent it was 125,625. He found that for
liatiq :14 the
V.,number required in 1835 was 23,013;
Clp4l.ooo' '33,972, being an increase of between 10,000
it Inca. For Ireland the number in 1835 was
',l at. a; was now 25,403. For the colonies the
Ntiet;blB3s was 36.941; it was now 39,730. The
its ta, then, for Great Britain, Leland, and the
q'lo 1835, 81,971; it was now 99,128, showing
akprni: " 11,857 men. To make up the entire increase
"qstl pr 41 3 nth la, instead of ,720 as in 1835,
moment 30,497;19 but asmen, the East India
tlll,lrAt rl'd for that additional 10,000 men, he would
. Ee g 01 them, He contended that the number
114ilekitses' that that. The people were as contented.
saetssa-,',ahle now as in 1833, and he need not remind
Vie, "'at there had been 10,000 pensioners en-
le:4e then-:hat there had been 10,000 enrolled in
Q111,:),a; ttalions, end in England and Ireland an ad-
(ali 'Of 'ee f roe of not leas than 10,000; so here was
ill 0 -
yajeap 'OOO men over and above the ordinary es-
'it‘ll44„-',---(lleer, hear.) In the cavalry alone the
might be reduced te seven or eight, and
`na• that clone would be in officers, barracks,
as 41' Why in Austria, which we appeared to be
tr „r model in keeping up large military estab-
-111t)k ter, regiments of the line took the duty of
Ala itt."o Icing's palace by rotation. They bad
'Whe'ti3', making somewhere about 10 regi-
. net reduce them, so asr to make eaocb regi-

meet consist of 1,000 men? Lord Palmerston had him-
self st i Led before the Committee that it would be a mea-
sure of very gnat economy. When Lord Bexley, in 1822,
brought ferwarcl the effective and non-741 ctivc state a the
arrny,he stated that by the reduction that would take place
in the noe-,lfective strength of the army, they might count
upon an ultimate saving of 5,000,0001.; but all the
savings in that department were now added to the effec-
tive strength of the army, so that the people were no
gainers. Ile coetended that the public were scandalously
used in every point of view by a sy..,tern which main-
tained double the number of officers really required. In
his opinion, it was high time for that House to look to
these military establishments, with a view to cutting
them down. In the proposition which he was about to
make he did not ask them to discharge one soldier. Ail
he desired was to stop recruiting. The people of Eug-
land were weighed down to the ground by the pressure
of taxation. In Mary lebene, which was one of the
richest parishes in London, he had ascertained that there
were 600 war-mats of distress issued for the non-pay-
ment of the rates. He had not been able as yi t to learn
what the number was on account of the assessed taxes.
He would, however, move for a return which would give
him this inf innetion. Indeed, they ought to hare re-
turns of all the parishes in England as to the number
of warrant; of distress issued both in respect to
parochial and what were called King's !axes. They
would find by the returns that kith pauperism
and crime had been in a great degree prcduc-d by
their taxation. They thus took from the working-
classes the last remnant of property which they pos-
sessed, and fereed them to be dependent upon the poor
rates instead of receiving a contribution from them in
support of these esiiblishmente. If they had reduced
Cie army to the standard of 1835, they sever would have
required the income-tax. In a pamphlet published by a
Mr. Normaa lately, thu opinion of Mr. John Stuart
Mill was quoted upon this point. That gentleman was
made to say that the amount raised by Government in
the shape of taxation was for the purpose of affording
the Government an opportunity of spending that which
other people ought to be allowed to spend. The Go-
vernment had now a surplus of 2,000,0001., which would
enable them to make the reduction asked for with the
most perfect security. This was the time for Honour-
able Members opposite to support him in his propositions
for such reduction. If they refused t f do so then
he would not listen to any attempt at redaction made
by them at a time when there would be no such
surplus in the Chancellor of the Exchequer's hands.
The Noble Lord at the head of the Government
would not be placed in any worse condition if
he assented to this reduction. Ills position, on the con-
trary, would be greatly improved; for he would not be
so much bothevel for the distribution of his patronage.
for he would have fewer applications. The more money
they had to spare the more they were annoyed by the
claimants on their bounty. This was an economical
country. (Laughter.) He admitted that they had
amassed capital, but it was not sufficient to support
the heavy weight of taxation which was placed in
greater proportion upon the shoulders of the poor nal
upon the real capital of the country. He, therefore,
begged leave to move that the number 99,000 be altered
to 89,000.

The question having been put,
Major BLACK ALL said it was not in consequence
of having been connected with the service he was induced
to oppose the amendment. Ho believed that all those
who were connected with this service were equally anxious
as the Hon. Member fur Montrose to see it conducted
with every regard to economy. He had not heard
any reason assigned by the Honourahle Member
for the proposition he male. The Honourable
Member said that he only want to stop re-
cruiting ; but surely that object, if attained, would
not have the effect of reducing the household troops or
the cavalry of the United Kingdorn.—(Hear, hear.)
Were there any of their colonies in which they could
with safety effect a reduction of their troops. In the
whole of their North Americau colonies, including Ber-
muda, their effective force only amounted to about 5,500
men. It they meant to bold their West Indian colonies,
surely 3,300 men was not too large a force. In the
Cape of Good Hope they had only 2,500 mee ,• in
Ceylon 1,000 men; in the Mauritius 1,000 men; Aus-
tralia, including New Z-'aland, 2,500 men; in Gibraltar
2,500 men; in Malta 1,000 in China 1,000 men.
lie did nut see how they could reduce the amount in any
of these colonies. The Hon. Gentleman said that the
army at home was maintained at its present standard for
the purpose of keeping down certain classes. This he
denied.—(Hear, hem) He was sure that the conduct
of the military could not justify such an assertion. When
anything like a rebellion was threatened, the manufac-
turing classes v ere the very first to call on the military
for their active interferenee—(tlear, bear)—and if there
was any attempt made to reduce them they would be the
very first to grumble. He certainly could not agree to
the amendment.

Sir W. MOLESWORTH said that the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman who spoke last complained of the
want of argument for the proposed reduction, end he
called upon his Hon. Friend to explain his reasons for
bringing forward this amendment. Before he attempted
a reply to the Hon. and Gallant Member's speech, he
would refer to a remark made by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man the Secretary at War—namely, that the Expense of
the army and militia at the present moment was nearly
the same as it was in 1835. That statement of the
Hight Hoe. Gentleman contained a fallacy, because the
milit try expenditure ought to be divided into two class( s
—namely, the effective and the non-effective. Tne
effective had refrence to services actually performed.
Teat alone was under the control of Parliament, whereas
the non-effective expenditure depended upon the num-
ber of men that had been employed i❑ the service in
previous years. Ile found that the effective expendi-
ture in 1835 amounted to 3,344,0001. In 1848-49 to
4,356,000/. It subsequently decree:el to 3 936,000/,
e:ug a reduction of 428,000/.; but there had still been
an increase of 592,0001. since 1835, and cf 18,000 men.
The question fur them now to consider was, whether
they could with salty approximate more closely to the
standard of 1835 and 1836. They demanded good rea-
sons to be shown for not execedime that amount, and it
appeared to him that the onus probandi rested with the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War to state
these reasons.—(Bear.) If they were determined to
keep up so large an amount of troops as they had at pre-
sent in the colonies, he thought that they also ought to
keep up a considerable number of troops at home, be-
cause they should be prepared to afford those abroad re-
lief.--(Hear.) The question then, for them to consider
was this, whether they required so large a number as
40,000 men in the colonies ? He asked the Committee
to consider well what was the expense of keeping up this
largo body in their colonies. In the returns which had
been presented ;ast year to the House, they nad an ac-
count of tie expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847
under this head. It appeared then that the average
expenditure for the years 1846 and 1847 amounted
to 3,500,000/. exclusive of any expense incidental to their
fleets kept in colonial situations, which amounted to
1,000,009/. The direct expenditure, therefore, must be
considered as amounting to 4,500,000/. If, then, they
included the expenditure on account of the Ordnance
commissariat, the total would be 9,000,0001. The effec-
tive expenditure of the military was 3,000,0001., and of
non-effective 1,000,000/. The colonies should be consi-
dered under three heads—namely, military stations,
plantations, and what were properly called our colonies.
If they wished to keep possession of such colonies as
Hong-Kong, St. Helena, Labuan, and Sarawak, they
must make up their minds to pay for this expense,
which amounted to 500,000/. a year. Ho would now
show that the s'a•,istics of the Hon. and Gallant Gen-
tleman who spoke last were all wrong. At Malta, in-
stead of only 1,000 men, there was.at that moment 2,891
men.

1141jor BLACKALL—I only spoke of the troops of
the line.

Sir W. MOLES WORTH calculated all the troops for
whose support they had to pay. In the lonian Islands
they had 2,500 men, and the expenditure amounted to
130,0001. a year on the average. Since the peace they
had expended upon these islands 4,500,000/. They
erected fortifications which cost 456,000/. They con-
structed a citadel that cost already 180,0001., and there
was 96,000/. yet to be expended upon it. The fortress,
it appeared, was so large that it was deemed not to be
expedient to bring troops there to command it. So that
the wisest thing that they could do in case of war was
to withdraw their troops from it and to blow up the for-
tress. In reference to their plantations abroad, he would
take the West Indies, and he found the troops there
amounted to 6,500, requiring an expenditure of
500,000/. a year. He had never heard any good reason
assigned for keeping so large a body of troops there.
In the Mauritius they had 1,732 men, requiring an
expenditure of 90,0001. a year. In 1838 they expended
for military works there 200,000/., and other works
amounting to 200,000/. more. In Ceylon the
number of troops was 4,000, of which 1,800 were troops
of the line, requiring an expenditure of 83,000/. a
year. He would now refer to their colonies, properly so
called. He maintained that there ought to be great re-
ductions made in the military forces in those colonies.—
(Hear.) If:they gaveahem free institutions the colonies
should pay for all their own local government.—(Hear.)
This country ought not to keep any troops there unless
it bo shown that they were required for Imperial ob-
jects. In Canada and their North American colonies
they had 8,700 men, wad in Bermuda 1,000, entailing
an expenditure of 645,0001. a7year. He contended that
Cauala should pay for the support of these troops. If
they wished to attach these colonies to this country they
ought to give them local government, by which they
would be enabled to manage their own affairs.—(Hear,
hear.) In the Cape of Good Hope they had 5,182 men,
which cost this country nearly 700,000/. a year. If they
granted self government there, they would be able to
reduce the number of their troops.—(Hear, hear.)
In their Australian colonies, including New Zealand,
the number of troops was 4,172. He believed that
2,500 of them were in New Zealand; the remainder
were chiefly in Van Diemen's Land, where it was said
they were required on account of the convicts. But in
New Zealand the amount of troops was almost as large
as the number of the adult European population.—
(Hear, hear.) He considered, taking together the colo-
nies of Canada, the Cape of Good Hope, and New Zea-
land, they might reduce the army by seven or eight
thousand men. He would propose that reduction on the
principle that the colonies ought to pay all the expenees
of their military system.
Captain BOLDERO c )uld not understand how the
Hon. B ironet could vote for a reduction of 11,000 men
when all he proposed himself was a reduction of 8,000
men. The observations of the Hon. Baronet applied to
the army in the colonies, as it was his hobby to get rid
of the color ies.
Sir W. MOLESWORTII—No, no.
Captain BOLDERO—The Hon. Baronet asked what
was the use of Hung-Kong and Van Diemen's Land.
Sir W. MOLESWORTII—Ne, no.

Captain BOLDERO—Now, they had these two colo-
nies since the favourite year 1835, and they were main-
taining now the same number in both colonies that they
bad iu that ycar. Otte of these colonies they had taken
AS A conquest, and as to the other they had it by stealth