The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, MARCH 27, 1844.

were deprived of the means of earning their subsist-
' ence, at an age when it was impossible for them to
turn to any other species of employment. The peti-
tioners therefore besought their Lordships to allow
those females, under whatsoever restraint or restric-
tion their Lordships might deem fitting for their pro-
tection, to resume the only employment by which
they could earn a livelihood ; and, if not too late, to
save them from the consequences of that cheap hu-
manity, of that false philanthropy—(Hear, hear)—
which at present seemed to have obtained possession
of the Legislature.—(Hear, hear.) It was a one-sided
humanity, as well as a false humanity, inasmuch as it
professed to maintain the rights, to support the inte-
rests, and to relieve the sufferings of those individuals
who were its chief object, while it inflicted, at the
same time, the deepest wounds, through hypocrisy
and shortsighted policy, on the very parties whom it
professed to correct.—(Hear, hear.) He had been for
a very long time a fellow-labourer with others in
many good works for the amelioration of the condi-
tion of the people. He had constantly, throughout his
political life, been their advocate and supporter, when
oppressed, according to his feeble means. Would
that his means had been ample in proportion to his
good wishes and anxious desires. Surely, then, he,
who had always exerted himself to promote the com-
fort of the people—he, who never in his life had given
a vote, or written a line, or said a word, that tended
to their oppression or neglect—but who had endea-
voured, through good report and evil report, to do
whatever he could to serve their best interests, tem-
porary or permanent—he, who had studied to keep up
the rate of their wages, and to keep down the price of
their food-4e, surely, had some right to be heard,
when the question related to the comforts, the sub-
sistence, to the labour and to the hardships of the
working classes.—(Hear, hear.) When it was said
that many were engaged in unhealthy occupations—
that many were worked too hard—that frequently they
laboured heavily, and were too lightly fed ; while-all
this must be admitted, still, he feared that those priva-
tions, those sufferings were the inevitable lot of
human nature. But he would not be perverse enough
to-call them oppressions—he would not be rash
enough to call them oppressions—he would not-be
impious enough to call them oppressions on the part
of man, until he had heard from some learned doctor
how much of these evils could be removed by human
means and human laws ; and how much of
them were the inevitable consequence, the unavoid-
abble result, of the mysterious decrees and
inscrutable dispensations of Providence.—(Hear.)
Therefore, he said, " Show me any means, within the
scope of human laws, to remove those evils—show me
any better course of legislation to do away with those
sufferings—show me any better rule of conduct by
which our rulers may be able to avoid those mischiefs
—and then, if those means be not resorted to, we may
use the word oppression.' " But, until that was de-
monstrated to him—until it was proved that the
means of removing these sufferings were within their
reach, and were neglected—he would not admit that
the evils complained of were the mere result of op-
pression, though he allowed that they were heavy
afflictions and calamities.—(Hear, hear.) But cer-
tainly he would never be a party to anything which,
under the semblance of humanity, was calculated to
inflict greater evils on the labouring population of
this country than even those which they now com-
plained of. But, he would ask, was all heir sym•
pathy to be confined to the spinners of cotton and
carders of wool ? Was no suffering to be found
amongst other classes of society ? Could any half-
dozen of occupations be named in which workmen
and workwomen were employed, with respect to
which no right to claim compassion could be
found? Not a few of the many occupations in which
operatives were employed called as much, on various
points, for legislative interference, as did the number
of hours during which children ought to be employed
in cotton factories. Here he begged leave to state
the opinion of a great authority on this subject.
Coming from so grave a quarter—coming from a man
who was so thoroughly conversant with the question
—coming from one whose whole public life was de-
voted, as far as in him lay, to the benefit of the people
—coming from an individual who, to the last hour
of his life, laboured for their good—he meant the late
Sir Samuel Romilly—that opinion ought to be re-
ceived with respect by all parties. What was that
eminent man's answer to him (Lord Brougham) when
he demanded his assistance, on a similar occasion,
many years ago ? He requested Sir S. Romily to af-
ford his support to a Bill which was then pending in
the other House of Parliament, to which he (Lord
Brougham) was friendly. The object of that Bill was
not the restricting the hours during which children
should be employed, but was meant for restraining
the ages under which children should not be suffered
to work in factories—and what was the answer of
that great and good man ? " I," said he, " will do no
such thing as support such a Bill. Can you stop
your legislation there ? Have you no recollection of
other trades ? Do you forget the glass-blowers—the
coal-heavers—the steel-file makers, who are inhaling
the seeds of pulmonary disease ' from morn 'till dewy
eve'—the painters, who breathe an atmosphere poi-
soned by the fumes of white lead—the brass-founders,
who handle and manufacture brass in all its forms,
and who are, in consequence, often paralysed by it ?
Before you proceed with restrictions in matters of
this kind, reflect that Providence has so ordered
it—and doubt whether you can interfere satisfacto-
rily. Above all things (said he, and this particu-
larly referred to the employment of children)—
above all things, beware that you do not introduce
something artificial in the place of those parental
affections which Providence has, most wisely and
beneficially, implanted in the human breast. Beware
lest, in taking this course of legislation, you proceed
to stifle, to drown, to extinguish those natural affec-
tions which are the real and legitimate support and
protection of children."—(Hear, hear.) Such was
the opinion of Sir S. Romilly. Now, the sufferings
of some classes, the misery of others, and the com-
parative wants of all (except those who were born
to the enjoyment of affluence) must be admitted,
must be regretted, and ought to be prevented, if the
means of prevention were in their power ; but how
could they be prevented when they grew out of those
dispensations of Providence with which man must be
content ? If any man wished to ascertain whether
these miseries were confined to manufactures, let him
go into the country—let him view the agricultural
districts. He would there see men, inured only to
agricultural labour rowing prematurely old at 40,
and decrepit at 50. They would then perhaps change
their opinions with respect to enforcing restrictions
on manufacturing labour. Let them read the most
lively description that ever was given of the happi-
ness which attended an agricultural life and compare
it with the reality, and he feared the two things
would present a very different aspect. On the other
hand, a poet of great eminence had described, with
all the accuracy of a Dutch painter, what he supposed
to be the wretchedness of a manufacturing life ; but
if he had lived in a manufacturing district perhaps
he would have drawn a less highly coloured picture.
Now, how far was this course of legislation to be
carried ? Were they to call on the Legislature to
provide so that dropsy should not be the lot of one
man in consequence of his exposure to atmospherical
changes, or that other complaints arising from their
employments should not afflict other men ? Would
any Noble Lord or Hon. Member of the other llouse
consent to a law which would prohibit his coachman
from driving him to a party and then waiting for him
until five o'clock in the morning, to the inevitable injury
of the servant's constitution ? Were no more races to
be run for amusement, not for the purposes of gamb-
ling (for he did not mean to say anything offensive),
by the introduction of a measure to prevent an infant
from being taken at seven years of age, and half
starved, to rednce him to the condition of a dwarf,
that at eighteen or twenty he might be of the pro-
per weight required for riding the handicap ?
(" Hear," and laughter.) Was that, he would ask,
the legislation they were to proceed with ? Such,
however, was the course which was opened to them
by those who exclaimed so much on the subject of
factories, and were very prodigal of their-own ad-
vice and of other people's money.—(Hear, hear.) But
then it was said, that the whole system as regarded
women was contrary to nature, that it was impos-
sible for them to pay proper attention to the nursery,
and (as we understood) suckling their children. And
those who read Tansillo's poem might expatiate on
the subject. But he would ask, how many wives,
and sisters, and daughters of their Lordships, and of
Members of the other House' of Parliament, volun-
tarily exempted themselves from following what, in
this respect, was called the first law of nature ?
They excused themselves from undertaking that
duty because their various avocations interfered with
it. Yet they had never heard that any mischief
resulted frm the practice ; but they were told that the
children of women employed in factories were swept
down in scores in consequence of their mothers not be-
ing able to attend to them. Now he conceived that
the petition which he now presented to their Lord-
ships bore out a very different view of the case. He
could now clearly state, and predict to their Lord-
ships, what the question in future would be, namely,
whether ten hours' work was to be paid for by twelve
hours' wages ? If such a principle were adopted,
away at once would go the profits of the manufac-
turers. Those two hours were all important to him.
He could not compete with foreigners if he were
obliged to give the same wages for a less amount of
labour. And let it be recollected that in France, in
Germany, in Switzerland, nay more, in America, no
such restrictions were known. It would be impos-
sible for the manufacturer to proceed, without lower-
ing his wages. But some thought that Parliament
might interfere—that nothing more was wanting than
the wisdom and unanimity of the Legislature to re-
duce the hours of labour, and at the same time to
prevent wages from being
fmappouts!si T
e lowered in the same ratio
as the time of employment was contracted! 0! inane
bl.o
iitrewvasentargsuueedh,
tahartedthuectpiornoposme•douldbe
i altera-

HOUSE OF COMMONS, March 26.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.
The Maryport and Carlisle Railway Bill was read a
second time.
BRIGHTON AND CHICHESTER RAILWAY BILL.
Colonel WYNDHAM presented a petition against the
Brighton and Chichester Railway Bill.
Mr. PAKINGTON presented several petitions in
favour of the Bill.
Lord MARCH moved the second reading of this Bill.
Col. WYNDHAM opposed the motion, and moved
that the Bill be read a second time that day six months,
as two-thirds of his constituents were opposed to the Bill.
Lord ARUNDEL seconded the motion. He said this
railway would destroy some of the best land in the
county; and, if passed, would operate as a great injustice
on the inhabitants of the county of Sussex.
Lord A. LENNOX supported the 2d reading of the
Bill.
Capt. PECHELL also supported the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Goring, Mr. Curteis, Mr.
J. A. Smith and Sir Charles Burrell,
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when the numbers were—
For the second reading 99
For the amendment 4B
Majority for the second reading —sl
The Bill was then read a second time, and was
ordered to be committed to-morrow.
STRATFORD (EASTERN COUNTIES) AND
THAMES JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
An Hos. MEMBER moved the second reading of this
Bill.
Colonel Fox, Mr. Hawes, and Lord Mahon, presented
petitions against the Bill.
Colonel FOX said that the alleged object of this Bill
was to carry coals, but if that were the only object there
were already two canals which were sufficient for that
purpose. His constituents were opposed to the Bill, and
he should move that it be read that day six months.
Mr. HAWES seconded the amendment. He could
name several persons of property who were opposed to
the measure, and almost all the people of Stratford were
opposed to it. As no public advantage would be de-
rived from it, the expense of going into Committee
ought to be avoided.
Mr. WARD knew of no ground which should pre-
vent a Bill going into Committee which had been allowed
to go into Committee last session. He hoped the House
would not prevent the Bill being committed.
Sir W. JAMES said there was no cause for opposing
the Bill.
The amendment was ultimately withdrawn, and the
Bill read a second time.
The Cwm Celyn and Blaina Iron Company Bill was
read a second time.
The Colchester and Harwich Railway Bill was read a
second time.
The report of the Norwich and Brandon Railway Bill
was further considered for the purpose of introducing
an amendment.
ATMOSPHERIC RAILWAYS.
Mr. SHAW presented a petition from Dublin in
favour of the principle of atmospheric railways.
LONDON AND SOUTBILLH WESTERN RAILWAY

The second reading of the London and South Western
Railway Bill (No. 1) having been moved,
Mr. WALLACE protested against several of the
clauses of the Bill, which enabled the Company to act
as general traders, as Custom-house agents, as hotel-
keepers, as whartingers, as steam-boat proprietors, and
in several other capacities totally inconsistent with their
office as railway proprietors. He thought that this Bill
ought not to be allowed to proceed further till the ob-
jections he had adverted to were removed.
Mr. ANTROBUS hoped the Honourable Gentleman
would allow the second reading of the Bill to take place,
and defer his opposition till the Bill went into Committee.
Sir W. HE ATHCOTE said that the clause complained
of by the Hon. Member for Greenock had, he believed,
been omitted by the Standing Orders Committee.
Mr. LABOUCHERE would not oppose the second
reading of the Bill, but he thought if the objection of
the Hon. Member for Greenock was well founded, it
might be pointed out upon the bringing up of the report.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought the question was one
for the Committee, and they had every security that the
question would not be overlooked there. The Com-
mittee would report specially whether or not the Stand-
ing Orders had been complied with. The House might
feel assured that the matter would not escape the fullest
investigation. The principle was one of the very greatest
importance. There was a general disposition on the

tion would be greatly conducive to health. The part of all joint-stock companies, who were intrusted I
ability to eat heartily was an acknowledged cosi with certain, powers for certain purposes, to err-
comitant of health ; but with decreased wages how ploy those powers for other purposes. Ile
was the operative to satisfy nature? Would his hoped the attention of the General Committa•
situation be at all improved '? He firmly believed on Railways would be directed to that point,
and he hoped the House would do its utmost to check
that those who now advocated the principle of re-
duced laoour would eventually discover their error, that disposition on the part of all joint-stock companies.
There were cases in which an exception ought to be
and find, that the best friends of the poor were those
who did not restrict nor interfere with their in- maie. lie was not prepared to say whether or not the
t,
case of the harbour of Folkestone was of that nature, bu
dustry.—(Hear, hear.) He was as certain as
in every case in which it was necessary to make an ex-
that the sun would rise to-morrow that many ception, the matter should be subjected to the most mi-
months would not pass over their heads before men nute investigation.
would be awakened to a sense of the follies they Mr. HUME considered that it was of the utmost
were now committing, and begin to be awake in good importance that the principle laid down by the
earnest, and find that he was the best friend of the Right Honourable Gentleman as the one by which
poor who did what he could to help them, and did the Howe was to be guided in its dealings with
nothing to injure them in pursuit of a vague fantastic joint-stock companies should be known by the whole
country. If they once departed from the principle, they
theory which his own imagination might have con-
would be open to all kinds of abuse. If the Committee
jured up, or which other men's hallucinations might did not strike out all the words enforcing the proposed
have inoculated him with. He hoped and trusted powers on the company, he was satisfied that the Bill
that meanwhile no harm would be done to the work- would be rejected.
ing people, for whom it was chiefly that he now spoke Mr. AGLIONBY agreed that great caution should be
—to the manufacturer, whose interests were the in- exercised in all these cases. The public ought to be
terests of the working people, and who, in fact, could carefully guarded, and they had many safe-guards. In
have no interests apart from them, and that no page then rst place there was the Committee on Petitions—
would be added to our statute book, before it was t there was the Standing Orders Committee—and
too late to reflect on the mischief and the misery then there was the Committee on Bills. In the present
instance all the provisions not strictly analogous with
which might result from it—sanctioning any such
first application for the Bill were ordered to be
pernicious principle (if he might so call it) as that of
the
struck out.
which he had now deprecated the assertion. Depend The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
upon it, we could not stop here.—(Hear, hear.) If be committed.
we were to legislate for these workpeople, we must MANCHESTER IMPROVEMENTS.
for all others.—(Hear.) Women in our colleries had On the motion of Mr. M. GIBSON, the Manchester
suffered much ; and he was one who had agreed (re- Improvements Bill was read a second time, and ordered
luctantly, and protesting against carrying it further, to be committed.
and predicting those consequences which had hap- NOTICES OF MOTION—THE SLAVE TRADE.
pened) to a measure for ameliorating their condition. r. M. MILNE
next S begge
moved to
an give notice that h
amendment one would
motion ofy But there was a spectre which haunted him more than on M.
the
the Noble Lord the Member for Tiver-
it did the manufacturer; which haunted him as the
ton (Lord Palmerston) relative to the slave
friend of the labourer, and, above all, of those very
trade, to the effect that it is the opinion
children themselves—it was the mischief of Parlia- of this House that the treaties between
ment interfering to prescribe how much work this country and foreign countries for the purpose of
a man, or a woman, or a child should be called upon suppressing the slave-trade by means of a mutual
oright
to endure. Of the two, he protested he would rather have of search, should be considered as part of a temprary
a Bill to regulate the rate of wages, and affix a mini- experiment, to be at all times under the control of the
mum of wages than a Bill to affix a maximum of two Governments.
work. He held the one just as much against all
principle as the other ; but the first would not pro-
duce so much mischief; and it would be entirely
nugatory—you could not fix the rate of wages.—
(Hear, hear.) Those who said the Legislature could
compel employers to give twelve hours wages for
ten hours' work did not know what they were talk-
ing of. Let th.m talk elsewhere than in Parliament,
and of other matters than these.—(A laugh.) They
were talking of subjects as utterly unknown to them,
and of which they were as hopelessly ignorant, as of
what was passing in another planet.—(Laughter.)
Humanity they had not studied. ' He believed many
of them to be worthy of, and he felt for them the
highest respect—as most estimable, honest, conscien-
tious, and, on other subjects, well-informed men ;
but he hoped he should not be accused of saying any-
thing disrespectful to them, nor against moral prin-
ciple itself, when he added—" so much the worse ;"
for nothing was more fatal, and, above all, in popular
assemblies, and in countries where there was a free
expression of public opinion, than respectable, honest,
conscientious, and amiable men, when they had taken
up some notion such as that of which he had spoken,
and acted wildly, enthusiastically, fanatically upon
that notion. He had had presented to him draughts
of two Bills proposed to be presented, calling his at-
tention to the much greater sufferings of semptresses
in London, Westminster, and country—(Hear,
hear)—working from early in the morning to late at
night ; fed on an extremely miserable pittance—on
bad or second-rate, cheap, indifferent food—little of
animal food. These were extreme cases, no doubt—
such was not the state of all or nearly all ; he hoped
in God it was not so, at least.—(Hear.) But their
wages were low from the vehement competition.
Every poor girl who had no rich parents to support her,
and who chose conscientiously to lead a chaste life,
was a competitor for that kind of work, and the con-
sequences were, naturally, most lamentable. They
suffered exceedingly ; and the diseases, of which a
frightful catalogue had been presented to him with
one of the Bills (which he should never present, as it
was not his duty to present such impossible specula-
tions to their Lordships)—the diseases, arising chiefly
from their posture of work—diseases of the diges-
tive organs and of the lungs, &c., were of the most
frightful and fearful character. But his answer had
been, that if Parliament legislated for these and other
such cases (for there were other cases even worse)
Parliament would become the nuisance of the nation
instead of its protector, by the utter disregard it
showed to the necessity of man's position in this
world, and to that first fact and law of our existence
—which he once had occasion, for another purpose,
but in favour of the working classes (for it was
against the corn-laws), to allude to—the law of
labour—
" Continua has loges wternaque feeders certis
Imposuit nature locis, quo tempore primam
Deucalion vacuum lapides jactavit in orbem :
Uncle hamines nati, durum genus."
It was not fit to repine at it—they might lament it ;
and they should do all they could to relieve it; and
among other things he proposed the removal of all
restrictions from trade.—(" Hear, hear," from the
Opposition.) It was no answer against his argu-
ment, "Why do you not repeal the corn-laws ?" He
did not wish to do the wrong thing, lest he should
injure the effect of the right thing. He was against
such interference, as calculated to produce nothing
but misery to workmen and masters—especially to
the workmen ; and it was his business to do his best
to prevent such grievous error, which in those who
governed would be a crime. Their Lordships being
a body eminently Conservative, from their reluctance
to enter upon wild and hazardous speculations, it was
snore important sound viaws should be maintained
and kept up, and applied in practice among them.

POOR LAWS.
Mr. MUNTZ gave notice that, in Committee on the
Poor-law Amendment Bill, on clause 56, he would move
as an amendment that "It is not lawful for the said
Commissioners to interfere with the management of
the poor in any parish containing more than 20,000
inhabitants, where relief had hitherto been given
under provisions of local Acts, without first obtaining
the consent in writing of at least two-thirds of the
guardians, or of a majority of the rate-payers.
Captain PECHELY, wished to ask the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department
whether he would have printed ssith the Votes the
amendments relative to local Acts ? It would be very
convenient during the recess for Hon. Gentlemen to
know the sentiments of the Right Hon. Baronet relative
to local Acts.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had last night stated his
intention of posponing the Bill till after Easter. Previous
to the Bill going into Committee, he would take care to
have the amendments in the
JURORS. hands of Hon. Members.
CATHOLIC

In answer to a question from Mr. BELLEW,
Lord ELIOT said he had received a communication
with respect to the Catholic jurors who were challenged
by the Crown in a case at the assizes of the county of
Monaghan, that had perfectly satisfied him, that
those jurors were not excluded because they
were Catholics, but that in every case there were
valid grounds for the exclusion. He also stated that the
Crown Solicitor, acting on the informations, could not
have taken any other course than he had done. He
was prepared to go into the details of all these
cases ; but the House would see that it could
not be done without exceeding those bounds within
which it was advisable he should confine himself.
SCOTCH BENEFICES.
Mr. HUME, seeing the Lord Advocate of Scotland in
his place, begged to ask him when he proposed to pro-
ceed with the Scotch Benefices Bill ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said he had postponed the
Bill till after the 30th of April.
THE EASTER HOLIDAYS.
Sir R. PEEL said, he last night gave notice that he
should move the adjournment of the House for the Eas-
ter holidays on Wednesday next. But he found that
last year he had moved the adjournment on the Tuesday
evening, and unless he had reason to believe that his
moving it on the same day would cause inconvenience
to Hon. Members who had Bills to bring forward, he
proposed to move the adjournment on Tuesday next.
TURNPIKE TOLLS.
Colonel WOOD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
exempt from toll lime conveyed on any turnpike road in
the Principality of Wales. In stating the,nature :of the
measure he should not detain the House at any length.
He wished the Bill to stand on its own intrinsic merits.
Every description of manure, excepting lime, was ex-
empted from toll. In some districts the amount of toll
was double the cost price of the lime. It was argued, in
favour of the toll, that without it many roads could not
be sustained. By Act of Parliament every description
of manure, except lime, was exempted from toll. He
considered that every road was a parish road, and being
such, he considered it ought to be kept up by the parish.
He thought he should be able to show that roads
might be kept up without a toll upon lime.
The Commissioners admitted that in England manure
was exempt from toll, and the reason they gave for such
exemption was, that the great proportion of articles
used as manure were seldom transported to any dis-
tance ; that they were most frequently merely taken
from one portion of a farm to the other. If
that was the cnly reason the Commissioners
could find for this exemption they took a very
short-sighted view of the matter. Lime, the
Commissioners stated, was of a different character ;
it was very valuable, and could be profitably transported
to great distances. Now they had heard a great deal
of guano; that was brought from a great distance ; and was
very valuable, so was Aberdeen waste, so was coal-dust,
and yet all these were exempt from toll under the pro-
visions of the General Turnpike Act. Lime was the
only manure subject to toll, and lime was the
only manure within the reach of the Welsh farmer.
He entreated the Government to concede the boon of
exemption of lime from toll—a measure which more than
any other would secure the tranquillity of the country.
Colonel POWELL seconded the motion.
Mr. HUME rose for the purpose of opposing the
Bill. He dissented from the principle of allowing
such exemptions at all. They had been made
from time to time in consequence of the House being
composed of agriculturists; such exemptions ought not
to exist. Whaver ey might exempt was a relief to
the farmer ; wte
hatevther was a relief to the farmer
was a benefit to the landlord. He did
not see why they should be relieved from
what other people were obliged to pay. The
turnpikes had been established, and their own Commis-
sioners told them that the money that had been embarked
in them could not be repaid unless the tolls were exacted.
He objected to the Bill, therefore, in both points of view,
but his chief objection was the one of principle. He did
not see why the landlords should enjoy these ex-
emptions.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON supported the Bill.
Mr. Ald. THOMPSON said that the whole system
of local administration in Wales required amend- I
ment. He had hoped the Government would come forward
with some comprehensive and adequate measure to relieve
those grievances of which the people of Wales
so justly complained. If the Bill proposed by
the Hon. and Gallant Memer was to be
the only panacea, he (Colonbel Wood) hoped
the House would reject it. For his part, he would op-
pose it to the utmost of his power, unless it was in-
tended to be accompanied by some more extensive mea-
sure on the part of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir CHARLES MORGAN believed that however
desirable it would be to relieve farmers from the pay-
ment of toll upon lime, yet in several dis-
tricts it would be found impossible to do so
without abandoning the road. The Commission issued
by the Government had had a great effect in calming
the minds of the people ; and as he hoped that some sa-
tisfactory measure would be proposed by the Govern-
ment, founded upon the report of the Commissioners, he
would recommend that a partial measure, such as that
of the Gallant Officer, should not be persisted in.
He was very much afraid that the Bill would go down
to Wales; it would be known that the Gallant Officer
had brought it in, but he was afraid the course the Go-
vernment intended to adopt with respect to it would
not be equally well known. Why, what had the Hon.
Under-Secretary declared? That though the Govern-
ment would consent to the introduction of the Bill, the
Gallant Member must expect no further support from
the Government. If such were the determination of
the Government, he thought the House would do no
good by assenting to the introduction of the Bill. He
thought it would not be right to exempt lime entirely
from toll, but unless something further was stated of
the intentions of the Government on this subject, he
should most certainly feel inclined to oppose the intro-
duction of the Bill.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM was decidedly opposed to
the exemption altogether of the toll upon lime. If,
however, he was asked whether Ministers would sup-
port the Bill in its future stages, he must certainly say
they would not. He, however, thought it would be
hardly just to his Gallant Friend who had proposed the
introduction of the Bill, not to allow it to be introduced
and printed, and sent to the Principality, in order to
know their opinion upon the subject.
Mr. F. T. BARING was of opinion that the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentleman had not justified the course
which the Government proposed to adopt. He admit-
ted that in a common case it might be reasonable to al-
low a Bill to be brought in ; but in what state was the
Principalityof Wales at the present moment ?—(Cheers.)
What unfounded expectations were they not raising of
permitting this Bill to be brought in ?—(Cheers:) They
admitted that the question of these tolls was exciting the
greatest interest in the Principality, yet they permitted',
Bill to be brought which they themselves declared the
would put an end to on the s9cond stage. Now, at all
events, this could not b 9 considered as a wise mode of
dealing with the question.—(Hear, hear.) The report
of the Commissioners was no doubt at present under the
consideration of the Government ; and yet, while it was
still under their consideration, they allowed a Bill to be
brought in relatlngto a small portion of that report, and
which went distinctly to reverse the recommendation of
the Commissioners.
Mr. MORRIS would not oppose the introduction of
the Bill ; but although he was willing to support every
measure for the relief of the inhabitants of Wales, he
could not consent to do injustice to a large class of per-
sons. The revenues of the trustees of the roads would
be largely reduced by the abolition of the toll on lime ;
and they were indebted in a considerable sum to the

Exchequer for money advanced by way of loan. • He - quantity of her corn would reach this country. But
trusted that on the second reading the Hon. and G: silent those
the
who from close observation were well acquainted
aintschemeMember would be prepared to propose some scheme for with • internal position of India, were of a different
granting compensation to those persons, and also that he opinion, and the press of that country were all demand-
would use his best endeavours to induce the Chancellor ing a sin) il
There
rmearseurle for India to that granted to Ca
of the Exchequer to forego the repayment of these loans. nada. a
egaaerttsi ine
extentdistricts a
si thenGre a t neighbourhoodßritain,
which
He was glad that, during the course of the debate, of the Ganges "aa'selNla,hr
justice had been done to a large class of persons who were entirely garaohTencf country, and the best
had been most unjustly charged with fomenting the informed persons on the
at statedet that wheat could
recent disturbances in Wales—he meant the Dissenting be shipped from the Gangesj
as
awoetenthel6s.t.anl d 1.87.
ministers.—(Hear, hear.) Those persons were remark- per quarter. But wheat alone w
able for their peaceable demeanour, and for the respect respect to which his measure would benefit lanrcliict.eFlour
l
which they invariably paid to the laws.—(Hear, hear.) was an article that was imported into this country from
Sir W. JOLIFFE said that lime was only partially India in considerable quantities. There was a most re-
exempt from toll in England. He knew a part of the speotable house in the City engaged extensively
in the
country that suffered materially in consequence of the importation of flour from India—he meant the house of
toll upon lime. There were three small trusts, in all. of Lawson, Norton, and Co., from whom he learned that
which tolls were levied on lime, and the consequence not less than between two and three thousand tons of
was that, although lime was the manure the most easily flour were annually imported by them from India;
procurable by the inhabitants of that district, and the and that there was another house in Liverpool
best suited to the soil, yet they were precluded from also extensively engaged in the importation
using it. He regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman of that article from India. He called on the
had not stated his intention of doing something with Government then to concede what he asked. He
regard to the General Turnpike Act. A large measure thought he had shown them that all the colonies which
of reform was wanted to remedy these evils. In one he had mentioned had fulfilled the conditions on which
locality with which he was acquainted, the mortgagee they had consented to give to Canada the advantages
had seized the gates, and collected the tolls to pay the which he now asked for those dependencies of the em-
interest of his money, while the parishes had to main- pire. He knew that the great difficulty of the Govern-
tain the roads. There was little traffic there, and con- meat was that there were certain influential persons a
sequently those persons who paid for maintaining the property in that House and in the country who were
roads had also to pay the tolls. He could assure the strongly opposed to any change in the corn-laws. But
House that, unless these grievances were remedied, the he asked Ministers if, in their government of the Nolo-
' discontent which had disturbed England and Wales nial empire, they would be guided by the visionary fears
would extend to other parts of the country. of a few men, who looked solely to their own interest.
Mr. DARBY thought that the grievances complained The measure that he now sought to have effected was
lof ought to be remedied rather by a General Turnpike one which common justice and policy called for as abso-
Act than by such a measure as that which the Hon. and lutely necessary. Let them govern the colonies with a
Gallant Member wished to introduce. He knew there view to their interests—with a view to fair and just
was a great feeling on the lime question; but they ought dealing—and they might be assured they would never
not to deal hastily with the question, involving, as it did, seek to sever themselves from the parent country ; but
so many important interests. let the Government neglect the interests of those distant
Mr. G. R. TREVOR said, the greatest difficulty he settlements, and there was reason to apprehend that, -at
had in dealing with this qnestion was the necessity there the first convenient opportunity, they would withdraw
existed for improving the roads in that part of the themselves for ever from the harsh rule of the home
country in which he resided. A great deal of the in- Government.
terest of the money borrowed for the purpose of im- Mr. MANGLES seconded the motion. India stood
proving the roads was paid by the tolls on lime, and in a peculiar position, and had claims upon us which
very little of that interest could be paid if the whole toll, were possessed by none of our colonies. Not only did
on lime were abrogated. He thought it would be better that she support the army and navy, bat she remitted to this
his Hon. and Gallant Friend should abstain from bring- country four millions and a half annually. He did not
ing in the Bill. He did not believes that this toll upon lime think that India paid too dearly for the advantages she
had anything whatever to do with the commencement of enjoyed ; but, •in common justice, we were bound to
the struggles in South Wales ; for the gates through afford her every facility for paying it.
which most lime was carried, and nearest to the lime Mr. GLADSTONE said that, though he could net
districts, were the last attacked. He should not oppose accede to the motion, he was fully sensible of the im-
the bringing in of the Bill, though, as at present advised, portance of the object the Hon. Gentleman had in view.
he would vote against the second reading. He had no wish to prevent experiments from being tried
Lord EBRINGTON said he thought it was a great with regard to the trade of India and Australia, but he
grievance, and very unfair to the Welsh people, that the did not think the duties complained of were likely to
mail coaches should be exempted from all toll. This ex- have that effect. The Hon. Gentleman founded his ar-
emption very much diminished the funds at the disposal guments very much on the conduct of the Government
of the trust, and made the imposition of' other taxes ne- with regard to Canada last year, and he undertook to show
cessary. He should feel it his duty to oppose the bring- that the circumstances were analogous. He thought the
ing in of the Bill. Hon. Gentleman had entirely failed to make out his case.
After a few words from Mr. VIVIAN, in support of The proceedings of last year themselves contained the
the Bill, clearest indications of the intentions of the Government
Mr. SAUNDERS DAVIES said he would support with regard to a motion of this kind. It was urged
the introduction of the Bill. with plausibility against the Government, in the discus-
Colonel WOOD said that, in answer to the Honour- sion on the Canada Corn Bill, that it was most unwise
able Member for Cumberland, he begged leave to say and impolitic to disturb a question of such vast extent
that Government were in no way connected with the in- for the sake of any benefits which might accrthe ue from
troduction of the present Bill. the extension of the trade with Canada ; and answer
The House then divided, when there appeared— to that was not a general denial of the fact, but a refe-
For the introduction of the Bill ... . ..... 6B rence to the pledges which had been given by the Go.
Against it 42 vernment in a former year. The Hon. Gentleman,
Majority
Leave was accordingly given to bring in the Bill. vernment would assent to this proposition. His Noble
CORN-LAWS. Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, when asked
Mr. HUTT presented petitions from merchants of the whether it was the intention of the Government to in-
city of London, and from other places, in favour of the troduce similar measures respecting the other colonies,
introduction of corn from the British possessions in said he did not scruple to declare that the view of the
South Africa and Australasia at the same duty as corn Government was, that such a question as the corn-laws
imported from Canada. The Hon. Member then moved ought not lightly, and without grave cause, to be dis.
" That this House resolve itself into a Committee of turbed. But were these colonies really in the same
the whole House on the Corn-laws, for the purpose of position as Canada ? The Hon. Member stated that
considering the following resolution—That it is expe- there were petitions from these colonies ; but he
dient that corn imported into the United Kingdom from did not apprehend that any of them had pe-
the British possessions in South Africa, India, and Aus- titioned in the same sense, or by the same
tralasia, be made subject to the same duty which is authentic organ, as Canada had done. Canada
levied on corn imported into the United Kingdom from had petitioned by the highest public authorities of the .
Canada." He would lay before the House, in as few colony for many years in succession, indicating a very
words as he could, what he considered to be a great strong and widely-spread feeling, whilst the present pe-
grievance. In the course of the last session a Bill had tition emanated only from individuals engaged in trade.
been introduced by the Government,by which certain dutie The Hon. Gentleman spoke in his resolution of placing
were taken off corn imported from Canada to this country. the corn trade of these colonies on the same footing as
The subject was very fully discussed, and received from that of Canada ; but he did not propose to lay a duty on
the ordinary supporters of the Government a good deal the importation of foreign corn into them, as was en-
of censure. The supporters of her Majesty's Govern- acted in the case of Canada. Thus he omitted an essen-
ment being chiefly attached to the sliding scale, coin- tial part of the arrangement made with regard to Ca-
cided with their leaders on that principle, and attempted nada. The Hon. Gentleman asked where this duty was
to lay down the proposition that it was the duty of the to come from. He (Mr. Gladstone) apprehended that
Government to make the colonies entirely and solely sub- this 3s. might be highly inconvenient to many included
servient to our own advantage. The Right Hon. Bart. in the resolution. The Hon. Gentleman called them
at the head of the Government wisely rejected such exporting colonies, but he thought that hardly one of
a wild and impolitic notion. The measure the Rt. Hon. them was entitled to that appellation. Take the colony
said would give great encouragement to the agricultu- of New South Wales. That was manifestly an importing,
rists of Canada, and tend to cement the union between and not an exporting, colony. The Cape of Good
the colony and the mother country. It was precisely Hope was becoming more and more an importing,
upon those grounds that he (Mr. Hutt) now came for- and not an exporting, colony. The distinction was, in
ward to ask for a further relaxation of the corn-laws in fact, that in the case of Canada there was a rational ex-
regard to our colonies in Southern Africa, India, and pectation of establishing a trade of some extent—a trade
Australasia; and he would show the House that these which, though it would not produce any powerful or vio-
colonies had still stronger claims on our sympathy and lent effect in this country, was still worthy of being taken
indulgence than even Canada itself. They were at a into consideration as furnishing the means of assisting
greater distance from England, and consequently more in the supply of the increasing population. There were
exposed to the dangers which the vicissitudes of the other reasons which had induced the Government to
sliding-scale occasioned. Again, they were farther from propose a change in that case. A panic had prevailed
any corn-consuming country ; but the great argument in Canada, on account of the legislative changes in 1842,
was that the Legislature had already applied the prin- and this was now an important reason for providing
ciples of free trade to a portion of our colonial empire, for the extension of its trade. Now, had the Hon.
and why should not those principles be applied to the Gentleman a right to say that these colonies taken in
Cape of Good Hope and to Australasia ?—(Hear.) the mass were exporting colonies ? It was perfectly
Why should not the inhabitants of those colonies obvious from their circumstances that they had a right
participate in those advantages of a liberal legislation? to calculate upon any supply of corn worthy of being
It was true these colonists had never risen against our taken into account in dealing with this subject. In Van
authority as was the case in Canada ; they were mem- Diemen's Land, and in New South Wales, the price of
hers of the same community—subjects of the same corn, in 1839, was 15s. a bushel and upwards ; in the
Crown, and obedient and loyal to their Sovereign, and year 1840, the price of corn in Van Diemen's Land was
why should they not receive as great favour as the from Bs. to 12s. a bushel, or from 645. to 945. per quarter;
Canadians? The case of these colonies was not like in 1831, it was from 48s, to 80s. a quarter; and this in
Nova Scotia or New Brunswick, which the Government the colony which was the most favourable to the ex-
said should be excluded from the Bill regarding Canada, portation of corn to this country. They had returns
because they never produced sufficient corn for their which showed the total quantity of corn imported from
own subsistence. The Right Hon. Gentleman at the all countries, from the year 1828 to 1841. If the
head of the Government said that Canada was a corn- Hon. Gentleman would examine he would find, in the
producing country, and could export it. He thought he first place, that they bad actually sent to the Australian
would be able to prove to the House that the colonies to colonies from this country a much greater quantity of
which he referred were in the same position. Australia, corn than they had received from them; and that in the
though the country about Sydney might be an excep- last seven years of the period to which he had referred
tion, seemed to be very well adapted for the production they had received no amount which was worthy of being
of corn. In the southern districts, and about Port named. During the first seven years, the Australian
Philip, corn had been grown in great abundance, colonies exported 2,589 quarters of wheat; during the
and at a trifling cost. But the great granary second seven years, they exported 19 quarters of wheat
of the Southern Ocean was Van Diemen's Land. to this country. During the first seven years they hu-
h appeared from a return laid upon the table of the ported 7,668 quarters of wheat in the form of flour;
House, upon a motion of his, that a considerable quan- during the second seven years they imported 139,000
tity of wheat was imported ast year into this country quarters of wheat in the form of flour. This proved
from Van Diemen's Land. It had been imported in that the change had been precisely in the opposite direc-
large quantities to the neighbouring colonies in the tion to that which the Hon. Gentleman assumed. Ob-
Eastern Seas ; and, notwithstanding the fluctuation of jections might be taken to the terms of the H was, tn. Gen-
the sliding-scale, 1,300 quarters of it were imported into tleman's motion,
but his great argumenthat
this country. This was the first time that wheat, the having dealt with the produce of a particular colony in
produce of Van Diemen's Land was brought into this a particular manner, they ought to carry out
country; and considering the distance, and the disadvan- the spirit of that particularHe enactment throughout
tages in its way, 1,300 quarters was no inconsiderable their colonial system. vented say
quantity. It came into the country also in a remarkably more y
his proposal the Hon. Gentleman would make
fine condition • and after paying all the costs of freight, more anomalies than he would remove. If he were
and the duty Of 55., it left a handsome profit to the im- anxious to make the system uniform, why had he not
porters. There would be an extended trade with this begun by applying to Canada herself
the remission of
country if the restrictions at present existing on the im- the duties enacted with respect to grain other than
pottation of corn were removed.—(Cheers.) He had wheat? Perhaps he would say that they were insigni-
never seen corn equal in weight, and in the thick- ficant. But he apprehended that that was no answer to
ness of the skin to that which was imported the objection. Now, there were other parts which it
from Van Diemen's Land. It was sold at would be well to take into their consideration. The
a price varying between 625. and "Os., when the average Aus forustralian
their colonies had ;
w ith t the East
Mauritius they had a
Indies and the
price in in England was only 565. It appeared, from a pa- ti markets he
per which he had received from Messrs. Buckle and Co., very close commercial intercourse; and with the nearer
of Mark-lane, that the price of wheat in Van Diemen's markets reqng the occasional relief of scarcity, he
Land was 385., the charges for freight were 10s., the thought there was no probability that any extensive
duty was is., and other charges were ss. a quarter, trade in corn would be established between Australia and
making a total of 58s. a quarter when imported into this this country. The Hon. Gentleman referred to the
country. It sold at between 625. and 655. This was on the Cape of Good Hope. The Cape of Good Hope, with
6th of October, 1843. He was informed that the charge reference to this country, was not an exporting colony,
of 10s. for freight was too low, and that the ship- though it occasionally exported small quantities both of
owners could have but little remuneration. He was glad flour and wheat, as fine as that of any other colony.
to find that there was a reduction of duty on all those If the Hon. Gentleman looked to the returns, he would
articles which entered into the composition of vessels, find that those colonies were more importing than ex-
and he hoped the day was not far distant when the porting countries. He would find that the statements
shipping interest would recover from its present depres- which represented them as exporting places were origi-
sion. With regard to Australia, he had a letter before nated by mere fussy, fidgetty persons, who spoke of
him from Mr. Charles James Stephens, of Mark-lane, what they did not understand. The Hon. 'Gentleman
which stated that the wheat produced there was equal included all those colonies which were mere importing
to the best wheat produced in Essex and Kent, and that colonies. But he omitted that one which was in reality
owing to the dryness of the country, it was an exporting country—he meant Prince Edhe ward's Islan
th
d.
very fit for exportation, and almost as good With respect to India, he must say that agreed wi
when landed in this country as when it was the Hon. Gentleman in thinking that every encourage-
shipped. He had other testimony to the same effect; meat ought to be given to that portion of the empire. As
and various parties connected with Australia believed soo whete price of wheat in this country rose to 585.,
that if the duty was reduced to Is. it would be paying theof India was admissible at a duty of Is. a
the settlers for the cost of increased production. Such, quarter. There was great difficulty in bringing wheat
then, was the case:with Van Diemen's Land. It complied in the form of flour, from so great a distance, and under
with all the conditions which the Right Hon. Gentleman such changes of climate. Yet, in 1841 and 1842, the
said that Canada possessed. Now with regard to South average of wheat imported in the state of flour was
Australia, which was founded about six years and a half 17,000 quarters. In 1843 the quantity imported
ago, and which before that time was merely a " howling was no more than 4,800 quarters. Uoking at
wilderness," inhabited by wandering. savages, it pos- the whole question, theed that he had
heedanswred
sensed all the opportunities of carrying on productive all the arguments of Hon. Gentleman ; and id
iustry. He referred with the greater pleasure to this, not conceive that there was any ground upon which the
because he took an active part in the Bill under which House could agree to the motion.•
the colony was founded, and had acted as one of the Mr. LABOIJCHERE had resisted in the last session
Commissioners afterwards. The corn produced in it of Parliament the policy of the Government as to the
was even superior to that produced in Van Diemen's corn trade of Canada. He regretted the interference
Land. It sold at 72s- in this country, when the average of the Legislature in the trade of the colonies. But if
price there was below 465. It would afford
ins concessions were made in favour of one colony, why
trade with this country, if he succeeded in cing the should not the boon be extended to all others? What
Legislature to agree to his proposition. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then read an extract from the South Australian effect which the success of the motion would have upon
Observer, for the purpose of showing the corn-pro- the agricultural interest.—(Hear, hear.) The House was
ducing powers of the country, and that it produced told that the motion, if carried, would create a panic.
more than was sufficient for its own consumption. All If so, the strength of the agricultural nerves must be
the settlers wanted was to discover places where they very weak. If the boon which was given to Canada
might export their -superabundant corn. The Honour- was to be maintained, it ought to be extended to all
able Gentleman - then read extracts from two letters other of the colonies. He asked them how they were
from South Australia, dated the 27th of May and the to separate the case of Prince Edward's Island, Van
28th of June, 1843, to the same effect. He would now Diemen's Land, India, and New South Wales, from that
refer to the case of South Africa, and the circumstances of Canada? He did not think that they would be act-
of the colony were not in any way dissimilar from the ing justly to the other colonies if they did not place
other colonies he had spoken of, except that it occa- them in the same position as Canada. On these grounds
sionally suffered from want of irrrigation. But the he would support the motion.
colony at the Cape exported corn. He now came to the Lord STANLEY would only detain the House a few
case of India ; and if the case was strong with regard to moments, for the subject had been so often before the
the other colonies, it was much stronger with regard to House, and had been so ably treated by his Right Hon.
India. The agriculture of India had advanced very little Friend, that it had been completely exhausted as far as
since their possession of thatcountrY, audits manufactures, argument was necessary. Ms Right lion. Friend op-
once so celebrated throughout the world, were sacrificed course taken
commented upon the Inconsistency of the
by the commercial and fiscal regulations of this country. course taken by his Right lion. Friend to the left, and
It was strange that the advocates of protection were enstatd that he believed if the subject was not properlY
quite silent with respect to India, and that the parties idered, it would create groat panic and alarm. Now,
who would most oppose his motion were those who con- he (Lord Stanley) believed that to accede to the motion
tinually raised at home the cry of protection to British of the Hon. Member would create far greater panic than
industry. It alight be said that India would benefit the adoption of any other course. The proposition to
little by the meatureheproposed, inasmuch asbutaemall admit, free of duty, the produce of all the colonies in the