The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-23 00:00:00

TEE SUN,

limits of the colony the local legislature should have
the fullest power of dealing with all meters relating to
the colony. It was of the utmost importance in grant-
ing privileges to the colony that they should he liberal
and complete.—(Hear.) In answer to the lion. and
Learned Member f.a. Newark, he might remark that
the Crown might have the power of extending the
jurisdiction of the colony from time to time, or of
cresting a new colony. The question of waste land
was particularly important at the present moment.
In New South Wales the squatting district was
some 1;600 miles by 300 broad. He had been
I told that saeral persons had obtained land in that dis-
trict f•r sheep-walks—some to the extent of 150,000
acres, some 300,000, and to the extent of 800,000 acres
—(Hear.) He hoped the Government would consider
the question, and give to the colonial legislatre the
fullest power over the lands within the limits of the co-
lony, , reserving to the Crown the right as to lands be-
yond that limit.
Mr. MACGREGOR thought the question of waste,
lands a most important one as regarded the future pros-
perity of the colony, but did not think that the system
hitherto pursued in our Australian colonies, though
wisely introduced, had either been judicious or success-
ful. He concurred in the opinion expressed by the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, and thought
the suggestions of the lion. and Learned Member for
Sheffield deserved the consideration of Goveonment.
Sir. W. MOLESWORTH•remarked that it was pro-
vided that colonial Acts were to have force only if they
were not "contrary to the law of England." He thought
confusion would arise from the retaining of these

words.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK,
Mn ANSTEY proposed to meet the view of the Hon.
Baronet (Sir W. Molesworth) by substituting the words
" this Act" for " the law of England."
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the clause
as it stood. The clause declared that only such Acts of
the colonial legislature should be operative as were not
repugnant to the law of England.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH said he objected to one part
of the Bill, because there were a great number of Eng-
lish statutes not applicable to the colonies.
After a few words from Mr. ROEBUCK and Lord J.
RUSSELL,
Mr. SCOTT suggested that the portion of the measure
relative to the disposition of waste lands, which was a
very important part of the question which they had to
consider, should be withdrawn fur the present, until they
had gone through the Bill.
After a short conversation, in which Mr. ADDERLEY,
Mr. WYLD, and other Hon. Members took part,
Mr. SANDFORD said he thought literality, like
charity, ought to commence at home, and that England
ought t J be afferded, while she professed so much gene-
rosity to her colonies, the means ot sending out her
surplus population to her dependencies. Re did not
consider that this country should be deprived of what he
considered one of the greatest advantages to be derived
from our colonies.
Another desultory conversation ensued,"when it was
intimated by Lord J. RUSSELL that the discussion on
the points referred to could be re-opened on the bringieg
up of the report.
Clause 13 was then agreed to.
Clauses 14, 15, and 16, were then agreed to.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished that a better provision should
be made for the adjudication of questions arising be-
tween the colonies theineelver.
On clause 17 having been prpposed,
Mr. C. LUSHINGTON rosé to move the amendment
of which ho had given notice, to provide for the omission
of such parts of that and he preceding clause as pro-
vided for the signification of her Majesty's pleasure on
every Bill which should be passed by the council in any
of the colonies referred to, altering the sums allotted for
the sustentation of public worship, as mentioned in the
third part of the schedules A, B, and C. In doing so, he
said, although he intended to confine his observations
strictly to the terms of his notice, he could not
avoid expressing • the satisfaction which he felt
at the introductiois, by the Noble Lord at
the head ( f the Government, of a Bill which
was calculated to conciliate the colonies, and more
especially as recent transactions had contributed to im-
pair their affection for the mother country.—(Hear,)
He should regret that anything which he said, either
in or.out of teat House, should be construed for a mo-
ment to imply that he wished to cast any disrespect on
the administration of the Noble Lord; but there were
some portions of the present Bill to which he entertained
special objections. He found there was one branch of
the legislative matter proposed by it, both injurious to
the feelings of the colonists, and calculated to produce
extensive social mischief. It was provided that a sum
of 49,000/. was to be divided among four churches in
the colonies, those churches being the Church of Eng-
land, the Roman Catholic Church, the Presbyterian
Church, and the Church of the Wesleyan Methodists.
Now he believed that such an arrangement would only
lead to religious animosity and contention. The arrange-
ment went en the supposition that the inhabitants of
the colonies were not prepared voluntarily, to contribute
to tee maintenance of those particular forms of worship
which they professed. But that opposition was, he be-
lieved perfectly unfounded, as appeared from the large
sums which had already been raised in the colonies for
that purpose. Religious discord had been the bane of
England, of Ireland, of Scotland, and of Canada, and
the greatest evils would result from inoculating the
Australian colonies with its noxious influence. The in-
habitants of Victoria had announced their determination
to oppose that clause, and he felt persuaded that it
would meet with general disapprobation throughout the
colonies. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by -moving
his amendment.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he wished to remind the
Committee of the precise state of that question. The
system in force in the colony of New South Wales was
this—there was a very moderate sum apportioned be-
tween the four different churches in the colony; and the
object of the provision to which his Hon. Friend had
just offered his opposition was to maintain that arrange-
ment to this extent, at least, that it could not be altered
without obtaining the consent of the Crown in the
mother country. He confessed he believed that ar-
rangement would give general satisfaction in the colo-
nies; and he could state that the introdution of the sys-
tem :,had met with their very decided approval; while
the previous system of giving psculiar privileges to the
Church of England had given rise to considerable
religious contention. For his part he was not prepared
to eucourage a system of absolute voluntaryism, and the
removal of any contribution by the state towards the
maintenance of any form cf religious worship. All he
would ask was, that these moderate endowments which
were now provided, not for any class of Christians, but
for those great divisions which comprised the immense
majority of the people of the colonies, should not be
disturbed. The only question now before the Corn-
mine was the principle of the grant, which he trusted
the Committee would not hesitate to.adept.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK was surprised that the Government
should blow hot and cold in this manner. They began
by saying, " We give you the power of making a con-
stitution—we do net want to coerce you." But on look-
ing at the schedules, which always excited his suspicion
when they curtained items of expenditure, what did he
find? The first item was the salary of governor, of
which the colony could not get rid without the appro-
bation of her Mai-sty. The Right Hon. Gentleman con-
sidered that the umaeure would satisfy the colony. If
so, why not let the colonists fudge for themselves? Why
interfere in the matter? He would tell the Committee
why they interfered. In the colonies an attempt was
always made to settle what is called the civil list, and
every colony bad quarrelled with the mother country on
account of that list.—(Hear.) That was the cause of the
American quarrel?—(Hear, hear.) A rebellion took
place in Canada on a similar account. Millions of money
had been exp"nded, but annexation was rendered almost
inevitable, and this country had no power over the Ca-
nadas. In the present case the moment the colonists
should acquire sufficient power, resistance would be
offered. He desired to retain the colonies and extend
them, but he was convinced the only means of doing so
was to give them full power and control over the regu-
lation of their own concerns.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
sidered a governor appointed by the Crown the sub-
stantial connecting link between the- colonies and the
empire of Great Britain. If the Government wanted
to pay a governor as their servant, let them pay him out
of English money. But if he was to be paid by the colo-
nists, the colonists ought to fix the amount.—(Hear.)
The schedule which he held in his hand was somewhat
remarkable. The governor of New South Wales was to
have a salary of 5,0001., the chief justice 2,000 L, the two
puisne judges 1,500/. each; and then there was a lump-
ing sum for " salaries of the attorney and solicitor
general, crown solicitor, and contingent and miscellane-
ous expenses ot the administration of justice throughout
the colony," of 19,000/.—making altogether 29,0001.—
(Hear, hear.) Then there was the colonial secretary
and his department, 6,5001.; the colonial treasurer and
his department, 4,0001.; the auditor pelletal and his de-
partment, 3,000/ ; salary of clerk and miscellaneous ex-
penses of council, 500/.; and pensions, 2,5001.; making
16,000/. And then came the enormous and lumping
sum for what was called public worship, of 28,000/. So
that altogether the Bill would fix upon the colony no less
a sum than 78,0001.—(Hear, hear.) Now was this in the
spirit of the Bill? It the people were fit to govern
themselves, why were they not competent to fix the sala-
ries of their officers?—(Hear, hear.) The Bill also pro-
vided that any saving in the amount should be reserved
to the use of her Majesty, or rather Majesty's adminis-
tration. He considered this proposition an insult to the
whole family, and he should move at the proper time the
omission of the whole schedule.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT said the Right Honourable Gentleman
objected to one dominant church, because he thought it
might lead to great discord, and was in favour of four
churches, because it would put down discord by bring-
ing together such a large majority as would overpower
the minority. But, as the population increased, it was
not unlikely that the system would be changed,•and that
the discord under the new plan would be greater than
any which had hitherto prevailed.—(Hear, hear.) He
would ask the Noble Lord at the head of the Govern-
ment to point out the wisdom of fixing sums of money
for the support of certaitereligious persuasions. If there
was any one question more than another which the
people could decide for themselves it was that of reli-
gious establishments.—(Hear, hear.) There was one
important question connected with the subject, which
was very likely to come before Parliament at no distant
period—he meant the question of the clergy reserves in
Canada, which had borne fruits of the bitterest kir&
As the law now stood, these reserves were erraegeo.
under the provisions of an Act of the Imperial Par-
liament, and the Canadian Parliament had not the
power, which this Bill would give to the Australian
colonies,
.of making any new arrangement without
coming to the Imperial Parliament for an Act.—(Dear,
hear.) He did not see the necessity for an Impe-
rial Parliament providing for the teaching of religion
among the colonists. If the emigrants to the United
States could provide religious teaching for themselves,
surely the persons congregating to Australa ought to

tare the sane privilege.—(Hear, hear.) Ile trusted the
Noble Lord would withdraw this proviiion, and thus take
away what would otherwise he a source of discord among
a people to whom we wished to give institations calcu-
lated to promote their permanent welfare and pc ace.
Mr. LA.BOUCHEREI said the case of Australia, was
different from that :of Canada. It was true the arrange.;
ment with respect to the clergy reserves in Canada could
not be altered without an Act of Parliament: But if this
Bill should pass, it was not correct to say that the relie
gious arrangements of the colony could not be altered
without an Act of Parliament; for they might be al-
tered by the colony, with the sanction of the Crown.—
(Hear and a laugh.) No present inconvenience could
arise from the system laid down, and good cause ought
to be shown for the alteration of an arrangement which
bad hitherto worked satisfactorily.
• ' Mr. H. K. SEYMER entertained no great partiality
for a system which endowed four chtirches.—(Hear.)
He thought the colonists were entitled to have the entire
control of their own affairs, and was of opinion that they
would act wisely in providing an endowment fer religion,
because it would show the emigrants that they would
possess those religious advantages which they had en-
joyed in this country.—(Hear.) He believed that great
jealousy would be excited among religious bodies by the
present plan, and that it would perpetuate a system of
religious discerd in the colony.
Mr. ANSTEY supported the clause. He trusted that
Hon. Members would consent to waive their opposition,
and to retain the clause.
Mr. ADDERLEY could not understand how the
principle of endowing four churches could be defended.
The attempt would fail, for it was • impossible that
they could conciliate one church or the other. He
was, however, anxious that vested interests should be
protected.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think that Hon. Mem-
bers took a proper view of this question, when they
attempted to argue that this was a scheme for endow-
ing certain churches in Australia. In the year 1835
the Secretary of State for the Colonies, finding great
complaints existing in Australia, in consequence of the
people supposing that there was only one church pro-
tected in the colony, a provision was made by which
four of the principal, being the most numerous
churches in the colony, should each have a separate
sum alloted to them. A bargain was likewise made,
a condition of which was that a certain sum should
be granted for building churches in proportion to
the contributions of the inhabitants of the districts.
We accordingly found that these sums were paid for a
series of years; we found that these churches had been
built, and that individuals in the different districts had
largely subscribed their money. We therefore proposed
to continue the establishments which we found already
in existence, and that any alterations required to be
made in regard to them should be first submitted to the
confirmation of her Majesty by the advice of her Go-
vernment. The Hon. Member for Westminster would
vote nothing at all for vested interests, but proposed
that the whole of these establishments should be done
away with, and that those clergymen who had gone out
to the colony under certain well-understood arrange-
ments should be altogether deprived of any emolument.
He thought that this would be most unjust towards the
colony; and in respect to what had been stated to be
the feelings of the colonists on this subject, we can only
say that we have not found any perceptible degree of
complaint upon this head. If it should appear that this
system was no longer agreeable to the colony, it would
then, no doubt, be desirable that the Crown should have
the matter laid before it. He thought that if we gave
a preference to one of, those churches, and said to the
other three that they should be deprived of their revenue,
that such a course would be most unjust, and that, if the
majority of the people, recommended it, the Crown
should have an opportunity to consider it.
Mr. LUSHINGTON explained. He never proposed
that the present grants should be cancellei, but that the
question should be left to the general feeling of the colo-
nists to determine.
Mr. SCOTT said there was no point upon which the
colonists felt more sore than upon these schedules of
appropriation. That was the great grievance in the
Stanley Bill.
Mr. HAWES had heard no reports of any dissatis-
faction being felt in the colony on this subject. On the
contrary, it was considered that the proposed arrange-
ments on the whole were satisfactory. There was a
power of alteration reserved, in respect to which the
Crown would he disposed to pay every respect.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ... 54
Against it ... ... 203
' Majority in favour of the original
clause ... 7-149
Allet. a short discussion as to whether the Bill should
be proceeded with,
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and
_obtained
leave to sit again on Thursday.
STAMP DUTIES.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in reply to Mr. Disraeli, stated
the House was to understand that the stamp duties were
to be discussed on Friday.
PARLIAMENTARY VOTERS (IRELAND) BILL.
This Bill was re-committed proforma.
The Bill was then ordered to be reprinted, asd ree
ported on Monday next.
METROPOLITAN INTERMENTS BILL.
Sir G. GREY moved the second reading of this Bill.
Lord D. STUART objected to the Bill being pressed
on in this rapid manner. Ile was extremely anxious that
the Government should prevent the interment of the
dead in large towns. The Bill gave an. enormous power
of rating and many lucrative offices, and generally in-
creased the patronage in the hands of the Government.
He trusted that ample time would he given for discuss-
ing a Bill containing 60 clauses. The Government,
which had delayed such a measure too long, were now
pressing it on too hurriedly.
Mr. FORBES remarked this was not a time of the
night fur discussing a Bill of this importance.
After a few words from Mr. LACY,
Sir G. GREY said the Biil would be fixed for Com-
mittee for Friday next.
Mr. BRIGHT remarked that was a very short time
for considering such a Bill.
Sir G. GREY said he had been asked for a fortnight,
and he gave nearly that time.
Mr. WYLD observed that the Bill included peculiar
provisions. It was not a proper Bill to be discussed in
a Committee of the whole House. The Government of
the country proposed to become undertakers. He hoped
to see a Select Committee appointed to consider the pro.
visions of the Bill.
Mr. MACKINNON supported the Bill.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Friday week.
RAILWAY ABANDONMENT BILL.
The Railway Abandonment Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
NAVAL PRIZE BALANCE.
In Committee of the Whole House,
Mr. PARKER moved a resolution that the naval
prize balance should be paid out of the Consolidated

Fund.
Sit J. GRAHAM asked what was the amount cf the
balance ?
Mr. PARKER—About 30,0001.
The resolution was agreed to.
OFFICIAL SALARIES.—COMMITTEE.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved that the following
Members constitute the Select Committee on official sala-
ries :—Lord J. Russell, Mr. W. Patten, Mr. Bright, Sir
J. Y. Buller, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Napier, Mr.
Home Drummond, Mr. W. Evans, Sir W. Molesworth,
Mr. Henley, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Walter, and
Mr. Dcedes.
The question having been put,
Colonel SIBTHORP rose, amidst much laughter,
and observed, that instead of appointing this " select"
Committee—(A. laugh)—the Noble Lord at the head of
the Government had better have said candidly—"l mean
to take care of myself and of my own salary.'—(Laugh-
ter.) " I-shall look after my friends. and I will stand
by them as long as they stand by me ; übi mel, iLi apes.
--(Renewed laughter.) Let them support me, and they
shall have plenty of turtle and venison."—(Laughter.)
He (Colonel Sibthorp) felt bound to protest against
such a partial and packed Commitiee as that now
proposed.• There seemed to him to be something
in the atmosphere of the Treasury bench whioh rendered
men, when they got there, quite different beings from
what they had been before.—(A laugh.) It was his
painful duty to say that he looked with extreme suspi-
cion upon all official men; and in such a case as this it
was net likely that they would cry " stinking fish."—
(Much laughter.) He did not know how the Committee
would go to work, but he knew very well what would
be the result of their investigation. He considered the
appointment of such a Committee most delusive and un-
satisfactory. He entertained great respect for the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell) in private life, and he admired
his transcendant abilities, though he was somewhat
cunning—(A laugh)—but it was evident that this step
was only a ruse de guerre, and that the Noble Lord
did not want to be disturbed in his rest. The Noble
Lord was attempting to get rid of •one of the most
important questions that could be considered, espe-
cially under the existing circumstances of the country,
when poverty was staring them in the face, and people
of all classes were suffering. If the Noble Lord really
meant to reduce salaries why did he not come forward
fearlessly and submit to the - House those reductions
which, in his opinion ought to be made ? But the
Noble Lord said, " You shall not consider the matter in
the House ; it shall bo inquired into upstairs, clausis
foribus." He (Colonel Sibthorp) considered that the
Noble Lord's conduct, in thus referring the subject to a
;secret conclave—a Star Chamber—was unworthy a Mi-
nister of this country, and was au insult to the British
House of Commons.—(A laugh.) He called, upon the
Noble Lord to give up this truckling, secret, underhand
Star Chamber mode of proceeding, and to take up the
position he ought to maintain. If the Noble Lord would
pursue a manly, open, honest course, and would show
Himself to be the friend of the people, he (Colonel Sib-
thorp) would be proud to render him his humble as-
sistance in maintaining his authority.—(Laughter.)
The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. LABOUCHERE brought in the Mercantile Ma-
rine Bill., which was read a first time.
The House adjourned at Twenty minutes to One
o'clock.

We do not arrive at the sublime by degrees, for
infinite distances separate it even from the beautiful.—Eliza
Cook's Journal.
• THE PRINCESS'S THEATRE.--This theatre is soon
to undergo an alteration in the character of its management.
This has been for some time treated only as a rumour,
but it is now become a certainty Air. and Mrs. Charles Kean
are; in connexion with Mr. and Mrs. Keeley, about to em-
bark in its management, Mr. Maddox having concluded
terms with both parties, and agreed to resign in their favour.
The deed of partnership is in preparation by a solicitor of
eminence. Whitsuntide is the period named for the new
parties taking possession of the theatre, though the season
will not commence till the autumn. Several performers
of high standing have, it is said, been already spoken of
engaged.