The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-13 00:00:00

-Zl),..rti •V.2litttort

THE SUN,

second reading of this Bill, he did not
wish to pledge the House to any other senti-
ment than that taxation and representation should go
hand in hand. He would not presume to ask the House
to pledge itself to any other principle, and if he should
carry the second reading it would be on the understand-
ing that it should be referred to a Select Committee,
where all its details would be taken into consideration.
He begged leave to more that this Bill be read a second
time.
Mr. SPOONER did not rise for the purpose of
making any observations on the merits of the Bill.
His object was to put it to the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Manchester himself whether he thought
it proper to press this Bill so hastily on the Howe
(Hear, hear.) This Bill was only delivered to Members
on Saturday night last. Many Hon. Members were
out of town on Saturday and did not return till Monday
evening, leaving them only a day to peruse a Bill con-
sisting of ninety clauses, and to make themselves ac-
quainted with its provisions. He moved that the debate
be adjourned.
An HON. MEMBEtt seconded the motion.
Mr. STANFORD said, though he spoke only in his
individual capacity, he believed be could state that many
of his friends around him, as well as himself, though
they sat on that (the Opposition) side of the House, were
of opinion that taxation and representation should go
together. He had read this' Bill with a legal eye, and
his own opinion was that it did not carry out that great
principle. With respect to the question of adjournment,
he was of opinion that the House should go at once into
a consideration of the principle of the Bill before it.
Sir GEORGE GREY said with regard to the
motion of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Spooner) he
(Sir G. Grey) should not ask for any postponement of
the consideration of the Bill. He was not prepared to
express an opinion on the details of the Bill, but he
thought as the Bill was only delivered to Members a
few days ago, looking to the language of the Bill, and
the great change it contemplated, it was not an unreason-
able request for the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Spooner) to make. There must be an inquiry either
way; it was quite impossible that this Bill should re-
ceive the sanction of the Legislature without the fullest
inquiry.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that he did hope the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester would still
consent to the postponement of the discussion on this
most important Bill.—(Hear, hear.) He did think that
the House was not in possession of sufficient information
to decide upon the principle of such an extensive mea-
sure.—(Hear, hear.) It was not to ,be supposed that
such a principle as this, which affected every county in
Eog!and could pass without a very lengthy discussion,
and here they were at nearly four o'clock, and the House
closed at six. How could the Right Hon. Gentleman
expect to come to a division in time, and if not, what
good could possibly arise from refusing the postpone-
ment which had been suggested by the,flon. Member
for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner.)—(Hear, hear.) For
his own part, he was greatly in want of information for
the amendment which he intended to propose in Com-
mittee.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said that it was not surprising that the
Hon. Bart. (Sir:J. Pakington) was in want of informa-
tion, for he was not in the House at the time the principle
of this Bill was first mooted. Such, however, was not
the case with the House generally, fur the question had
been discussed over and over again, and the
most ample evidence had been adduced upon
it that could possibly be required. By the Re-
form Bill they had instituted the principle, that all
the 'ratepayers should have a ♦oice in the choice of
their representatives, and as long ago as the time of
Lord Althorp, Mr. Portman, now Lord; Portman, had
presided over a Committee, before which all the neces-
sary information was given—(Hear, hear)—and he did
hope, therefore, that the House would not assent to this
suggestion for a postponement.—(Cheers.) They had
adopted the principle of representation i❑ all other
things, and why not then adopt it in this matter. By
their legislation they had saved an immense sum to the
county ratepayers.—(Hear, hear.) The county outlay,
which formerly was only 250,0001., had risen to 500,0002
aid 600,000/., and had they not a few years ago taken
off upwards 500,0004, it would at the present time have
amounted to 1,800,0001. They had already adopted
the principle of representation in merely political mat-
ters, and why not, then, give every ratepayer a
vise in the disposal of his own money?—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") He deeply regretted that the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary of the Home Department
had given any sanction for the suggestion of a post-
ponement, and trusted that it would be nullified by the
decision of the House.—(Cheeri.)
Sir R. PEEL (who spoke, much to the surprise of
every one, from one of the back benches on the
Opposition side cf the House, near where Sir J.
Uri sham usually sits) said, the question they had
now to consider was, what was the best course

SUN OFFICE, Seven o Clock.

IMPERIAL PARLWIENT.
(THIS DAY.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Th. SPZAK.SA took the Chair shortly after Two o'clock,
this being Ask Wednesday.
TURNPIKE TRUSTS BILL.
On th motion of Mr. C. LEWIS, it was resolved
that no Bill f,r continuing or amending any Turnpike
Act should be real a second time before Easter.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

The following Bilis were read a second time, and
ordered to be committed:—
Bristol Waterworks Act Amendment.
Dublin and Belfast Junction Railway.
Embankment and Reclamation (Ireland).
Great Northern Railway Deviations, Amendment cf
Acts, Alteration of Tolls, and of East Lincolnshire
Railway Tolls.
Kew and Petersham Vicarage.
Manchester, Sheffield, and Lincolnshire Railway.
South-Eastern Railway (power to discontinue pay-
ment of interest on calls paid on No. 3 and No. 4
shares, &e.)
South-Eastern Railway (Amendment of Acts, power to
raise additional capital).
Suffolk and Geneva Country Amicable Insurance Office.
Stourbridge Union Rates.
Tewkesbury Severn Bridge and Roads.
Wolverhampton Waterworks Act (Amendment and
Extension ef Works).
AG BICULTURAL PROTECTION.
Mr. MATHESON presented a petition from the
Fariners' Society of Western Ross, in favour of agricul-
tural protection.
COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS.

Mr. PLUMPTRE presented a petition from the
Faversham board of guardians, praying fur the estab-
lishment of county financial boards.
TAXES ON KNOWLEDGE.

Mr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from the
members of the Whittington Club, praying for a repeal
of the taxes on knowledge.
COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS.
Mr. BRIGHT presented a petition from a large
parish in Rochdale, praying for the establishment of
a county financial board.
SUNDAY LABOUR IN THE POST-OFFICE.
Mr. STAFFORD presented a petition from a place
in Northamptonshire praying fur the cessation of Sun-
day labour in the Post-office.
Mr. HUME presented a similar petition from the
inhabitants of Brecon; also petirions from Weirdale and
Muerdale, in Lancashire, praying fir the establishment
of county financial boards.
Sir WILLIAM SOMERVILLE presented a petition
from Drogheda praying for the discontinuance of Sunday
labour in the Pest-office.
Sir DAVID DUNTPAS presented a similar petition
frcm Sutherlandshir&
COUNTY FINANCIAL BOARDS.

Mr. HENRY presented a petition from Barton-on-
Irwell and Ober places, praying for the establishment of
minty financial boards.
Mr. COBDEN presented similar petitions from places
in the counties of York and Lancaster.
GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND.

Mr. Hl.TiiEgasen;;ice that on an early day he would
move an address to her Majesty that she would order
ber present Government of Ireland by a Lord-Lieutenant
to be disposed with, and a better one to be adopted.
SMALL COTTAGES-

The HoN. 114E;1;;;I,als;gave notice that he would, on
an early day, move fur a drawback of the duty on bricks
and timber aced in building cottages under the value of
41. (Cheers.)
AM. ROEBUCK AND THE "MORNING
CHRONICLE."

Mr. ROEBUCK said he claimed the indulgence of the
House while he referred to a matter somewhat personal
to himself. If he could possibly avoid it, he did not like
in th.t House ever to advert to subj, cts of a personal
nature; but there were ewes in which he was compelled
to depart from such a ru!e. In consequence of certain
ob!ervations he thought it his duty to make in the House
a few evenings ago, be found in a paper called the
Morning Chronicle of to-day some severe reflections
upon him. The paper in question said, " Now let us
test Mr. Roebuck with himself', and by the measure
which he metes out to others. We believe that he lost
a dear relative in the ranks of the Canadiam sympa-
thisers; and we heiieve he lef; ao stone unturned to
aveng• his death." And then there was a suggestion
thrown out that his (Mr. Roebuck's) brother had
been hanged. All that he (Mr. Rcebuck) could say
arse, that all his relatives in Canada held
very different opinions from himself with respect to
Canadian affairs; but he lost no relative during any por-
tion of those riuts; consequently he could rt,,t have acted
with any desire to avenge his death, because no such
death had taken place.—(Cheers.) He trusted Lhe
House would excuse his calling their attention t) a
matter wo purely personal to himself; but he had th-aight
it hi, duty to do so out of respect to the memory of one
who was desr to him.

HIGHWAYS (DISTRICT SURVEYORS) BILL.
On the motion for the second reading c f this Bill,
Mr. FRBWEN did not think the provisions of the
Dill ,ould carry out the principles it laid down.
Sir. W. JOLLIFFE hoped that as Government had
r)ott,• „f its intention to bring in a general Bill
with regsrd to highwsys. the Hon. Member f,r Sussax
would not press his motion for the second reeling of
this Bill.

Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS asked the Hon. Meni-
bei for Su,sex either to postpone the second reading cf
this Bill, or at Least, if he pressed it, that all discussion
should be suspended until it was in Committee.

Sir G. STRICKLAND opposed the Bill altogether.
He thoue.ht it would act very unjuriously i❑ many parts
of the o ,untry. Ho should move that this Bill be read
record time this day six months.
Mr. GREENE hoped that the Hon. Member far Sussex
would not press the second reading at present.
Mr. AGLIONBY supported the Bill, and would vote
for the second reading.
After a few words from Mr. HENLEY,

Mr. FREWEN said the question had been before the
House for four years, and thinking it desirable that
something should be done, he had introduced th• Bill,
but it it were the wish of the House, he would postpone
the to xinsi reading.—(Hear, hear )
After a few words from Mr. HOME and Sir G. GREY,
the amendment was withdrawn, and the second reading
of the Bill was postponed.
IRISII FISHERIES BILL.

On the suggestion of Sir G. GREY,
Mr. ANST.EY agreed to postpone the second reading
of this Bili until this day three wreks.

COUNTY RATES AND EXPENDITURE BILL.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON said he would only
make a few observations in moving the second
reading of this Bill, because it involved a subject
with which the House was tolerably well acquainted, in-
asmuch as the Bill was similar to the mt asure which
was brought before the House list session, both in prin-
ciple and in all its leading detail*. Therefore he was
taking up a measure which they were unable to complete
last session, rather than introducing an entirely new Bill.
Ile hal untier:alt,o the. charge of the measure at the
feciaest of his 11-n. Fr.e-id the Member for Montrose,
who had care of the mea-ure e f last session, and who in
fact oriiiiiated the l repo-al of introducing a system of
county- courcils to control couni) expenditure., analogous
to Oe system introduced to enable town councils to cen-
t 01 the expenditure of boroughs. It would, perhaps, be
eigt t to clear the ground from a few misapprehensions
which bad entered the minds of several Members on
the natere of this Bill. The Hon. Member for Oxford
shire (Mr. lie :ley) had al ides that it would supersede
her Majesty's juseete of the peace. Tnat, however,
was not at all correct. The Bill was simply to give the
rate-payers of c7-hnties a concurrent control with the
justic. s over the county expenditure, and nothing was more
rem,)te from his mind than to suppose that, in support-
ing the Bill, he was in any way disparaging the justices,
or superseding them in their judicial duties. He merely
asked that representative control should be given to the
rate-payers in conjunction with the justices, and
there were precedents for adopting such a
course. Poor-law boards were constituted by elected
guardians and justices of the peace, and they worked
harmoniously together to control the local expenditure as
far as the poor rate was concerned. It would be recole
leeted that a Commission was appointed in 1838 to in-
quire into the whole question of county rates, and they
expressed an opinion that they could see uraiejection to
the constitution of such boards. He would teed a short
passage from their report, which probably would be fresh
In rke rec4ction of the House. They stated that " the
principles of the county-rate seems to be open to serous
objections, on the ground that the charge is imposed by
pencil's not chosen by the rate-payers. No
other tax of such magnitude is laid on the
subject except by his representatives. It is impossible
not to admit that persons who contribute to the
county rate have little control over the expenditure.
The administration of that fund is exercised by an irre-
sponsible power, and is intrustel to a fluctuating body."
The Commissioners then went on to hint the adoption
of a plan similar to the one now under the
consid,ration of the House. They proposed by
this Bill that the board should consist of
ratepayers elected by different boards of guardians
and justices of the peace to be elected by members of
their own body. These boards were to have referred to
them all the financial affairs of the county; but it was
not proposed to interfere in any way with the judicial
powers of the justices. The necessity of such a measure
must be obvious to every Member of the House. In the
county of Lancaster the county-rate in one year sprang
from 125,000/. to 175,0001., and this increase was un-
posed by the justices upon persons who had no voice whaa-
ever in deciding whether it was judicious, or was founded
OR a due regard to economical or other considerations.
He would mention en instance to show that some more
efficient management was wanted in county expenditure
—that of the noway of York, where 200,0001. had been
spent in the erection of a gaol fur the accommodation of
160 prisoners. Now he thought there was prima facie
evidence in this to show that those who had contributed
this sum ought to have had some voice in the disposal of
it. lie was the last man in that House to wish to fled
fault with the erection of gaols and lunatic asylums, but
would not those persons whom he wished to admit
into these county boards be quite as much
alive to the Le, essity of these things, and as
well able to judge of the best mode of
erecting them as county magistrates were ? The
county of Lancaster had particu'ar reason to complain.
The rates in th it county had increased iu a much
greater ratio than either crime or population had in-
creased. In 1834 the county rate was about sd.
the pound, now it was 7id. lii moving the

for them to pursue in order to come to a
fair and satisfactory decision on this important sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) Now he had no hesitation in say-
ing that if the Right lion. Member for Manchester (Mr.
T. M. Gibson) would assent to the proposition of the
lion. Member fir Warwickshire, that they would at least
be in a better position at a future period for coming to
such a decison than they were at present.—(Flear, hear.)
It was true that they had had evidence adduced be'ore
them, but what they wanted was the information of to-
day—(Hear)—and he did not think that without that
information they would be able to arrive at a satisfactory

conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) They would by the delay
also have the opportunity for consulting with their con-
stituents on a matter in which they were so largely con-
cerned.—(Hear, hear.) Besides, what would be lust by
the delay? It was very evident, that it would be
impos-
sible to come to a division tc-day, an] if the facts had been
adduced last session, thst was no rcaso❑ why they
should not be revived, and added to in this.—(l-Itar.)
The Hon. Member for Warwickshire had frequently de-
clared that he wai not opposed to the principle of the
Bill, but that he required more information in order to
meet the details, and he did hope, then fore, that the
Hun. Member for Manchester would assent to a post-
ponement of the s-cond reading till a future day.
Mr. T. M. GIBSON said that he looked upon the
proposition f r adjournment as nothing more than an in-
direct attempt to shelf the question altogether, a result to
which he could 'sever be a party.—(Cheers.) The Right
Hon. Baronet oppositi3 would see that such Wai the case
when he took into consideration the position of an in-
dependent Member of that House. If the Government

cousented to IL a ljournment of a Bill, they could always
tix the day for it 4 resumption; but if a❑ independent
.I tuber assented to an adjournment, it was often
nothing more than tantamount to negativing the
question for the whole session.—(Hear, hear.) Perhaps,
aster all, the Government would give a little assistance,
and the Noble Lord at the held of the Treasury would
throw a little light upon the matter, and give some
ss•urance that the second reading should then be taken.
—(Cries of " Hcar, hear.") Hs had undertaken the

charge of this Bill, and could not take upon himself the
responsibility of assenting to the delay without some
such guarantee. It was true that he could not resist this
peisure, and hoped, tberetore, that some certain day
would be given for the discussion of this important
subject.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that before they came to a dc-
cision on such a matter as this they ought to be in pos-
se,sion of full information, and he, for his own part,
ki.ew little or r.othing about the Bill.

Mr. NEWDEGATE wished to relieve the Right
Hon. Member from the grievous pressure of which he
complained. The counties hardly knew that he was
taking such an interest in their proceeiings. He begged
to le.nind the Right lion. Gentleman that in pressing
this measure so earnestly upon the attention
f the House at the present moment, when
he was told by so many practical men
that they had not had time to consider it, he was bring-
ing himEalf under the suspicion not of being solely zeal-
ous for the measure itself as of seAing the reputation of
the farmers' friend ;" and it was peeectly well known
by the farmers that he (Mr. Gibson)was not their friend.
As for the county which he (Mr. Newdegate) repre-
settle 1, though it would be glad t•) receive the mea-
sure itself, it would be sorry to receive it from the source
from which it was to come.

After a few words from Sir HENRY HALFORD,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that though he could
not pretend to understand the logic of the question any
more than his Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
Gibson), yet he must say that he did not see in
what hater position the Bill would be if the
second reading were persevered in. He did not
think that some portion of delay to enable Memlers to
consider the measure, and the conic qaences which would
result from it, would be at all injurious. The Hon. and
Learned Member for Sheffield had asked what was the
disposition of Government with regard to the principle
of the measure. He could only say that for himself he
was so strongly in favour of the introduction of
that principle that he should give his cordial
support to the second reading of the Bill.—(Hear, hear.)
He should do so without at all undertaking the defence
of any of the details of the Bill, for he thought a Select
Committee would be most fitted to deal with them.
Mr. M. GIBSON then said he would postpone the se-
cond reading until the 6th of March.
REAL PROPERTY TRANSFER BILL.
Mr. CORNEWALL LEWIS rose to ask leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the laws relative to the ma-
nagement of the highways in England and Wales. The
Hon. Gentleman proceeded to enter into a detail of the rea-
sons which rendered some measure of this sort necessary.
All classes of the community—people of all diversities
of character—were, he considered, interested in seeing
the highway rates economically managed. The evils
of the present system were to be mainly attri-
bured to the inconvenient arrangement of the dis-
tricts. Each parish had a separate jurisdiction over
its highways, and in some instances in the
north of England even townships were divided. The
surveyor of each district was appointed by the guardians,
but he received no salary, and be generally had no pro-
fessional knowledge of highways, and his accounts were
kept in a very imperfect The result of
the present system had,
therefore,rnann beenmanner.
want c f ec o -
norny, and want of skill, and an useless expenditure
of money. To remedy these evils it would
be necessary
to give further operation to the principlemoafce it co
combined
management, to form new districts, and to k
pulsory to employ paid surveyors; and those were the
principles upon which the present Bill was founded. It
had been suggested that the magistrates should form the
districts and appoint the surveyors; but this appeared
to him an objectionable course, for if they took the
power of appointing a surveyor out of the hands of the
ve,try, they would deprive the ratepayers of a privilege
which they now possessed. Now in this Bill he proposed
simply to take the divisions of the poor-law unions, and to
continue the existing board of guardians, and therefore he
rendered it unnecessary to make any fresh territorial
divisions, or to appoint any new elective body. With
regard to the expenditure, he proposed that every pa•
rish or township should continue to pay the expenses of
its own highway precisely as at present, and the only
additional charge which would be made upon them, and
what they would share in coalmen, would be the salary

LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 13, IMO

silks ; the bulk of which have changed hands at a
further advance ; and the market is reported active at
the latest quotations.
HUDDERSFIELD, TUESDAY.—Notwithstanding the
unfavourableness of the weather, an average amount
of business has been done to-day. The main part of
the business, however, is by direct deliveries to the
merchants, owing to the active demand for spring
goods. There has constantly been a short supply ;
in fact, the stock has scarcely ever been so low as at
present.
HALIFAX, SATURDAY.—AIthough we cannot report
that there has been to-day any increased animation in
our Piece Hall, yet we believe that there is a better
inquiry for fancy goods ; but the merchants will not,
in general, give prices commensurate with the current
rates for yarn, and the manufacturers being
very low in stock, are unwilling to execute orders,
except at improved prices. The demand for yarn
continues good, without any change in the quotations.
The wool market remains in the same quiet condition,
and prices have undergone no variation, but the
staplers seem disposed to sell more freely.
LEADS, TUESDAY.—On account of the greater por-
tion of the business being done for order, very few
goods were brought to the cloth hall to day, and not
much business done. Prices may be quoted a little
higher, and stocks are very low in the manufacturers'
hands. There is a good deal doing in the warehouses,
chiefly by the wholesale buyers.