The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-15 00:00:00

been fixed by various Lord Chancellors. There was a who got 7,000/ a year by the Bill, should be allowed to
scale of fees fixed in the reign of George the Second by draw it up. It was said that it was hard to see men
Lord Chancellor Herdwicke, which was remodelled in who held good situations turned out of their offices and
1807, and from that time to the period of the pasAng of walk through the streets in poverty ; but was the public
the Act the fees remained the same. He admitted to suffer fur that ? Were those who were entitled to no
those fees were very high, and that the whole of the compensation to obtain large sums from the public
arrangement in reference to those offices consti- purse?—(Hear, hear.) The public had a right to coin-
tilted a great abuse, and that it was necessary plain that they received this compensation without any
to do away with them before any reform could inquiry. How was the Act of Parliament introduced ?
be effected. In the year 1840, Mr. Field, a solicitor, in It was said to be approved of by the Law Association
a series of tables, called the attention of the public to in London, which was composed of atterneye, who
this abuse, and he believed it was in consequence of the must at least be supposed to have an interest in the
information presented in that gentleman's pamphlet matter. It for the first time introduced a new principle.—
that the Hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby) (Hear, hear.) His Hon. and Learned Friend had even
obtained a return of the fees and emoluments of the six gone to Ireland for a precedent. But he failed; for in
clerks, and the sworn clerks, from which it appeared the case he instanced the offieers compensated were
that one of them, a Mr. Gatty, received between officers under patent, and their offices were saleable
sO,OOOl. and 11,000/., others 9,000/ , 6,0001., and so on ; by law.—(Hear, hear.) There were six clerks, and not
subjtime received so small an amount as 20/. a year. The sixty clerks.—(hear, hear.) He said whether this Bill
ect was then brought before a Commission, consist- had been in the House for months instead of hours, it
IN' of the Master of the Rolls, Lord Langdale, Vice- was the duty of those who brought it in to read it, and
Chancellor Wigram, Mr. Pemberton Leigh, and the late if they read it they must see that a new principle had
Mr. Sutton Sharpe. The clerks, on being con- been for the first time introduced. He was quite sure
Mated with, stated their readiness to enter into that the present Chief Baron of the Exchequer would
any views of reform on the understanding that they say, on introducing the Bill, that it introduced a new
tishraould get compensation. A Bill was accordingly principle of compensation if he was aware of it i but
Which up by one of the sworn clerks; Mr. Wainwright, the Bill was hurried on through the House with inde-
was submitted to a Committee at the Law Insti- cent haste. It was brought into the House on the 29th
tetion• The Bill, after their supervision, was intro- of July, and it was read a first time on the same day.
duced by Lord Langdale into the House of Lords, and It was read a second time before the Bill was printed.
before its third reading Mr. Wainwright went through On the 2d of August it was committed, when, for the
eits__various clauses with Lord Cottenham; and as those first time, the compensation clauses were added—(Bear,
e‘,),lnepensation clauses were passed without any oppo- hear)—and it was not till the third reading that those
id on on the part of the Noble and Learned Lord, he clauses were made known.
He had, therefore, a right
eine Solicitor-General) supposed he approved of them. It to say that the Bill was passed in indecent haste ; and he
intro-
stoelil,renteirliai me down to that House at, he admitted, a late period was quite sure that if the new principle
ntijosiiuielnds have
session, but still at a time when there were duced had been pointed ont to the Chan-
Honourable Members in attendance who cellor of the Exchequer, or to the Right
opposed it if it contained any pro- Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government,
did were were considered objectionable. The they would not have sanctioned it.—(Hear, hear.) If. it
The „end not 'sass
I' through the House sub silentio. had been said to them -that it was desirable
.to abolish
'I • and Learned Member for Sheffield made a those offices, they would not, looking to the interest of
eclnestrison between the remuneration for political and the public, have allowed such a Bill to pass in such a
professional
for me ,
services. The Honourable Member manner.—(Hear, hear.) All his Hon. and Learned
found that
stated that he had examined the Bill, and Friend wanted now was an inquiry. They did not want
in its kearddetailsenr:
tit was perfectly correct in its principles and to alter the Bill altogether. All they wanted to see was,
__The Hon. and Learned Member for Lis- whether it was good. The six clerks were entitled to
efficersPri proposes
10. compensate the agents of certain compensation, but there was no provision for pensions
hewever, 4 the Court of Exchequer. That proposal, after, death. But who were the sworn clerks ?
into the tas not agreed to. The Bill found its way (Hear hear.) Was the nature of their office inquired
the seeeteuti °use of Lords, not clandestinely, but under into ? Was that an office that could be sold ? It never
quainted 1°1? and auspices of persons who were well ac- had been sold, ualess by some evasion of the statute.
Were not with all the circumstances of the case, but who Had they inquired into the amount of their fees ? What
sation b willing to deprive the parties of their compen- had been done with regard to those fees ? When equity
the dutiecause it was larger than was consistent with business was transacted in the Court of Exchequer, all
blame .es they had to perform. If there were any the officers of that court were paid from the public funds,
gislato in the matter, it attached to the whole Le-. and now, after their business was transferred to the side
were re there was no individual exempt. What clerks in the Court of Chancery, the public was to pay
of his 1,91 e grounds of objection on the part again—(Hear)--that was, the public was to pay twice
thou ,1011. and Learned Friend ? In the first place he for the abolition of the same office.—(Hear, hear.) By
by tt the principle of compensation would be admitted the 12th section of the sth and 6th Victoria, chap. 103,
proprieyhere could nonbe a doubt as to the justice and the Lord Chancellor was empowered to inquire who
for se ley of compensating officers for offices legally held were entitled to receive compensation. Did the Lord
Jetted n' a period. His Hon. and Learned Friend ob- Chancellor do so ? Let them inquire if it was so. That
fie ten to the amount of compensation, stating that suf- was all they wanted.—(Hear.) His Hon. and Learned
eerta•t ealltion was not maintained for the purpose of as- Friend the Solicitor-General said the Lord Chancel-
restedtatng the proper sums. If that were so, the blame for was fettered, and that he could not give less than
the deewith those who passed the Bill. The grounds of three-fourths. Who wore to blame for this ? Was it
Here luerent charges, and the nature of the emoluments not the Legislature who passed such an Act ?—(Hear,
no Perfectly well known in the profession. There was bear.) Upon what principle were the agents to be com-
VarrntiiieeEteeeissitY, therefore, for guarding the return by any pensated ? If they were justly entitled to it, what a
ar sanction. No discretion was left by the Act of crying injustice had been done to the clerks in the Court
eetupetnent to the individual who was to administer the of Exchequer. He defied any person to say that there
for thensltion- The rate of compensation was to be--- was a legal claim for compensation. But it was said that
toursettie 4 six clerks, three-fourths • and for the clerks in it was but an act of justice eovvards those persons to pay
l‘litferd4d agents, two-thirds. In one case—that of Mr. them, and that it would be very hard if they were not
me--the salary had been made the subject of trust paid. Perhaps he (Mr. Jervis) also thought it would be
pressed rat, and that was at the time particularly im- hard, but was this a ground on which those who were
neee s, on the attention of the House. It had responsible for the public purse should act ?—(Hear,
bad eated that there were a great number of hear.) He would ask, therefore, whether they were
Li - nebts.
s Hoe He believed that on that subject prepared to say that any man, who wars a mere writing
The deb' and Learned Friend was entirely mistaken. clerk, liable to dismissal at a moment's notice at the will
poems, ts did not amount to more than a thousand of his master, should be entitled to compensation by an
Priend and that amount was deducted. His Hon. annuity for life.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that this
bill iutrns, perhaps, not aware of what was done by the was a subject which called for inquiry in the House of
biz elerTt!ced by Lord Plunket in 1836, abolishing the Commons. If there had been inquiry in this case, the
Preeisei " Office in Dublin. That Bill was founded on compensation would not have exceeded 20,0001. instead
tion. ,Y, the same principle as the Bill under considera- of 46,0001., which was now paid. In the meantime, the
600 e p: he emoluments of the office were not more than fees which were abolished, or to be abolished, were in-
comp": an emoluments
They had 4,000/. paid to them as a creased in amount, even though they might be
ittlaye....atioll for the abolition of their office ; and upon changed in form and in name. Were they to be
s d,'.4.ge of three years they received an additional surprised that the solicitors who had to charge
saleeo ern-
tre e. their life.. This was a much stronger case these fees in the costs, should complain and
—Pensation; and it afforded a complete precedent for require that the system should be altered, and that
ee coarse
titttreed 1, adopted on this occasion. His Hon. and the fees should not be so heavily increased to pay
ten
of
therknudsheabdyendeavoured to excite the compas- these compensations ? The cost of passing the Act was
li e sat thatspeaking of the poor suitors' fund. charged to the Suitors' Fund. had not the suitors a
ton for th,, fund was burdened to the extent of a mil- right to complain of that?—(Hear, hear.) Was it just
t; deal Wititse compensations. The only fund they had of the Lord Chancellor and the Government to put the
to to was the Suitor's Fee Fund. That fund was expenses of the Act of Parliament for granting thatcom-
elerks, the
the amount of '7 000/ received by the six pensation to the charge of the Suitors' Fund ?—(Hear,
Zillose efne fee clerks,' ' and the other clerks, hear.) To say the least of it, he would insist that this
, ere h es were abolished. Unless the Legis- was at least a subject for inquiry,. and unless it were
etel), ,„1, aid posed,inter the ,fee could not have granted the public would not be satisfied.
Ivere -'l4lshed• Th
ere bon, e compensations, he admitted, Mr. R. YORKE had been a Member of the House of
be
zla.vsettligeeedexthtealtidi:dwatso between 46 000/ and 47 000/. Commons when this Bill was pasted, and he cordially
.11ew cis . the just some compensation. should supported the motion, of his Hon Friend, the Member
that
the
Ina Persons who held those offices, and he for Kinsale..
to 1, Be ex many lion. Members opposite would agree Sir J. GRAHAM was obliged[ to state to the House
ue bore Peinse of defraying those compensations ought the reason why he opposed this motion. Ile admitted
door suitors oy the Consolidated Fund, and not by the that time did not sanctify an abuse. But it was to
''esea , and the object of the present Bill was to be recollected that these offices had been held for a time
'l' se the
he s chyr which now pressed upon the suitors. gating as far back as Charles the First ; and when Mr.
tw tue a,.. ges
B,,,een 45,00d4td for compensation amounted to be- Pemberton Leigh spoke from the other side of the
6' down fore ,and 46,000/. In every case which was House, in 1840, which had been alluded to by the Hon.
41s; Bd., whieksial those clerks were entitled to a fee of and Learned Gentleman who now introduced the subject
ti,,he a similar f brought in a sum of 15,000/ There was to the House, he (Mr. Pemberton Leigh) admitted that
pri,, . , 00/. had tobe
olished bamounted to
etoLboerdpaid upon every warrant of taxa the officers to be displaced were entitled to large and libe-
-8,0001. These fees bad been ral compensation. When the Bill, which was prepared by
4441;411:211:011 et:
Ch!incdelflor and therefore the Mr. Wainwright, was introduced, his Noble and Learned
,vhel!eepetiee-hal'enyn
to thf each folio Cop prosesi ora,ndin lieu of that the Friend now on the woolsack, acquiescing in all
was raised from three-halfpence the statements of Mr. I'. Leigh, laid it down that the
h old system the officers were entitled to compensation. The Bill passed
19,0t7elyer centag;`Pw 77,3 Una.
1, ernd the resent it was through the House of Lords, having received the appro.
Ns en slier
2481 i.no a_fsavrl.9of uthe esruitorps. But there bation of Lord Langdale, Mr. Pemberton Leigh, and
(ltiesia°."er Point
444 11
Year t be. considered with respect to th,s Mr. Sharpe, and was sent down to this House. The Hon.
Dens Y , pensation, and that was that before and Learned Member for Chester had said that, in the
tee atteu wo
old
elapsed the necessity for this corn- Bill there were provisions quite unexampled—that it
ke:ettors, i,_ old be at an end, and the dividend upon gave compensation for the sale of offices in the adminis-
eon referring to the Bill itself,
even Had hid would give a further reduction of other tration of justice.
than the lei_os Hon. and Learned Friend opposite, or it would be seen,. from' the fourteenth clause, that the
this thostZuase, more information upon this subject object of the Bill
that
sto put an end to the sale of offices,
tee, . raeaso_eXcellent persons who recommended and the fact was . it had done so. The sums awarded
le; rlenee? r.• and who had such extensive to the six clerks in Ireland, under the sanction of Lord
ieht4l,,he trast "a
it were necessary to pass such a mea- Cottenham, were expressly declaredhtodbe as compensa-
tees t refused no person in the House would for an tion for the privilege which they had enjoyed of the
IIL, Whos e allowing fair compensation to those per- transfer or sale of office durirg life. The Act
dent bei4 infujure
in life had been unfairlyobtained, or smuggled through
prospects and hopes
a stie Ili //Jared by the repeal of an Act of Parlia- Parliament. On the contrary, it had been pre-
With "g beshi en. and Learned Friend in his speech left pared and examined with the greatest care.
It ha the parlld, because he said there was some motive It could not be said truly that this measure was. smug-
ekec,sstil3,
tor,oes who brought in this measure to pass gled through Parliament or surreptitiously obtained. The
110 heti beenpasternnbvtow. ed. His (the Solicitor-General's) properly. carried into execution ? The. Lord Chancellor,
Ner of the /1 e" Friend was right in saying that the on making the award of compensation to be given,
Ns tee clerks olls had the appointment of the six clerks, called to his assistance the Master of of the Rolls and
Act ' the is,, of the writs and the clerks of the re- Vice-Chancellor Wigram, and all the compensations that
a'sre' Would 'LLr of whom, when appointed under this had been given received their sanction, and were, inva-
with also slit fetes alaries of 1,2001. per annum each. There riably, the minimum of the Act of Parliament. 6,0001.
Cat is;the Lpatar,xing officers hose appointment lay a-year had already been remitted from the Suitors' Fund,
\-lia,l•lllt,.th:,'‘-cellor • 'but instead of exercising and in the course of 20 years 45,0001. would be re-
ttd terY Oto' Nodeand Learned Lord vested it in the mitted. The Right Hon. Baronet concluded by hoping
L,s, re,
o,,tnrnissioners who selected three solicitors that the House would not accede to the motion.
teiarnee prr clerks of the Court. Had his Hon. and Mr. WILLIAMS announced the whole matter [as a
th(teutliill had satisfied the House that the framrs of scandalous job. It had been said that his Hon. Friend
at, „eries Of no proper caution in the matter ? the Member for Montrose had supported the Bill. He
fur reter there" -dean hear," from the Opposition)—or (Mr. Williams) was sure he would never have done so
certhkler fair Peal of the former laws, it was improper had he been properly made acquainted with the provi-
toettloti tiie°lll4Ptensation? He sho'uld trespass no sions of the measure. Unless there was a new system
~e ]loughs he attention of the House than merely to of management of the public business, it would .be 'in lee to Pe that he had stated enough to induce impossible, he was afraid, to prevent jobs of this kind.
that tia'n• and --eille to the conclusion that the motion of The public were entitled to protection from this system,
eeke
,137"tw,sourde:rr.n.se_d Friend was perfectly useless, and and her Majesty's Government, in defence of the Act,
Open_ sW_te reuse it. ought to allow inquiry into it.
l'' It 'attoet " reuse it.
respect to the nature of the Mr. C. BULLER was prepared to defend the vote he
tied en obe ie
e ed a nd Le
,g en to the claimants and its amount should give to her Majesty's Ministers against the first
illeet eta fig
newallied Friend who just sat down had part of the motion of the Hon. and Learned Member
treemettlid ut7der.,h but had informed the House b for Kinsale. The House, in looking.rb to the great question
etletrile Ci:lu.' and had also
atscircumstances the Bill had been of Law. reform ought not to beilnieveera
to in compensation;
with.
1-er,Fe of Ileetkr to _I o stated the construction given pecuniary consideration ought
.interfere .
kt '' but egtninissio •
the Act.There certainly was no great practical good—(Hear)—and acting upon thatpnn-
le, for L. rather, e n against the Noble and Learned ciple, he should vote against the motion. This measure
ISt, "an and of omission for he allowed others to had been denounced as a job ; now he knew the whole
Ali recite' - to eo construe the
. nstrue the Act, which, being him- of this measure proceeded from gentlemen who. were
Itsl3llthbe proiest?l:_tnliorised to do, he was bound to look to. among some of the most sincere law reformers in the
file,e.eNlJiett_lea_s";'° new that their clients wereabound country.—(Hear, hear.) Upon this Act no qu9s-
"ty 4 Friend Per cent for those fees, and what his tion had arisen as to its working, while
Ilre t° 1 near •
th veiled all the him wanted was to have an in- upon other Acts the greatest question had arisen.
eiltlit netsgainst s,teepicion and distrust which he The latter partof. the motion he thought was well worthy
seeq, for of ',._at measure, but they were told of the consideration of the House. That part
.of the
f
tape< coneenhe Lae parties had the slighest motion which proposed an inquiry into the subject of
tut a en. lie fent, and yet they refused any fees in the courts of law and equity was entitled to sup-.
,k(, Proced,,,, felt sure the House would not allow port. In those courts one hundred persons had the
vi ••eed , ..i. as this Bill tli4eroue ")1. the first J
would afford, to be now control of 300,000/ Ninety-one of those werein the
11,,,,.5.et- th_nreeedent,
~.iine. It would truly be a most law courts, and they were subject to no check
whatever wk,ati invent
public
~‘urit the officers, who were the guar - with respect to that money. .In the courts of equity
.
flues()w Igati,, k' se, were to be allowed impunity the persons appointed to receive the fees were required
sops, Propose,. He thought those offices, which it to make an affidavit with respect to them. Many of the
, weet ae, "u to abolish, ought to have been long fee-takers in the law courts were small salaried men, and
s'4't we
tiedY. T 1 •
‘i ter e The six clerks originally were per- therefore there were great temptations before them.
lv- • once, een admitted to those courts with a pa- Another very important question was the necessity of
te' lt earr?' "d all soi' • .
rif
tha,k
tilled on in
th Titers who had business should taking fees at all in the courts of law.—(Hear, hear.)
tits e leer en:elees, eir
E name, although they did all He thought the whole system required inquiry and re-
Vs as
man ease oe business' ach generally, in consequence vision, and he thought the Government would do well
sikil• and as fi._n, had ten assistants, and some- to institute an inquiry into the subject.
!Isrks4,-"arned Vfe__
..or twenty were allowed. His Mr. WARBURTON said he recollected. reading in
lids) ae.i.a(-1 the r'i:le,nctopp9site had said, that those the memoirs of the Duke de St. Simon, that when a
,(4e,lves 'tiled that, of selling their offices. He (Jr. proposition was submitted to him for law reform, he said
eLes u eclared ee
1,,,iti:1111 , for
because by a statute of Edward 111. that it could never be accomplished, inasmuch as there
astre sixetanected any person to sell were so many persons whose livelihood depended upon
14riethee ti 3: clerks had the administration of justice, those law institutions. Thus was law reform frustated
Wthts. he
bargain clients amongst the attorneys, in the time of Louis XIV. Now his Hon. Friend the
k 4 tio, clerks an -
pease sist e waiting e_ s with them for a share in their Member for Liskeard had fallen into this kind of tender-
lerks wer noere common clerks heartedness, and would not give his consent to law
;grer,aerah.
great
airll. )
NI 440 Li than a , . cl they hadmore right to com- reform unless an unlimited compensation accompanied it.
,f3tveerfney.---._reneY law stationer who was employed b • In
tole cause 11 the taxation of costs, sixtyand t 3::: 4elles test telt ak;r:aes ood on the The
clerks were with his Hon. Friend. Why, if they gave this immense
10 need---.(11e t and got 6/. Bs. for compensation to parties, whether they were entitled to it
what ea 6s. Bd., if Pape!, though it did not or not it would only have the effect of disgusting the public.
iiib,;!.. the, 0 be
lininht,he time of Lord Eldon with respect to all attempts at law reform. Now, with
ii.et,s 13.rutreceiy_ , erof causes, for each of respect to these fees, about which there had been. so
, 4,4
of
thpposed to have? He
they only stood on the much discussion. It must be recollected that these fees
litikeettle shhisdiot,d; Lord Lyndhurst do? What did had been, on several occasions, altered and interfered
uh., re 3,, rnnion of the
aade_e_%
on_ order He
interests those with by several of the late Lord Chancellors, and yet
e -ee• .is A
et , eve 6_ eta, made actually,. before the the compenstion for these fees had been fixed at the
t(trefa, 48(1- forby which they were highest point. This was a course of law reform which
ti,,, ekr, hear
_deprivin:%em
aliToonneethe;day on which it
he oat once
if he considererd.
3: had
.) would of 10,0001. a-year, would disgust the public. N. o one would object to corn-
tqts have end right e air n saant ido nj
übset i n; ga
negiiiv, en,
thereforerovi d,e dh.
e. thatth 0
ncompensation
v er n was-
v trout944da that •—(Hear, hear.) ent ought to support a proposition for inquiry into the
Yet it
lift[ tig to , claims for corn • was on subject.
rl ken 1,300 000/. pensation were made Solicitor-
‘i.
t 4 irks
w_ • —(Cheers.) The Mr. WATSON, in reply, said that the _
sX
ti); were .7e copying clerks of he
.agents or General had stated that he (Mr. Watson) had no right
S:II.Y t, e sixt;letd 10' a folio out of thesixty clerks, to interfere in this subject. Now he was prepared to
t^ dot el) this? it clerks received. [mono _lod. a folio show that he had this right, inasmuch as the Act o.f.
°re right was merewhat right had Parliament provided that the returns of these compen
of t?
NYirig clerk liad they to receive th —p ) (Hear.) sations should be laid on the table of the House. Why
(, tve) Iv
,who was ,able is. money than was that provision made, if it was not to give the House
lie en au . " it right that the
to do h •
is business?
wi., interest i 1 at the attorneys in London,Wainwright—for. •
the power of investigation? It now appeared that Mr.
wl the • nt se matter h d his name appeared at last—had re-
six ty clerk , s oul be allowed to calved 3,0001. for
the Bill for • ' en-
s, and that AIL Wainwe • preparing
ight, satton. They might as well make 'the felon pay for the