The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-19 00:00:00

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that upon Thurs-
day, the 11th day of April next, and every alter-
nate Thursday following, orders of the day have
precedence of notices of motions. His Lord-
ship then read a statement to show that since
this rule had been established in previous sessions the
Government had absolutely taken fewer days out of the
hands of private Members than they had done before.—
(Hear, hear.) All be asked, therefore, was that this
rule should be adopted after Easter.
The motion having been put,
Mr. HUME said that the Noble Lord had read a state-
ment which told more for than against him.—(Hear.)
All that he desired was, that independent Members
might have an opportunity of laying before the House
the demands and the views of the general body of the
people.—(Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord could not
grant all he asked, he might surely concede half a day,
and allow that on the open days the Government should
come in pari passu with independent Members and take
their chance and their turn in the order on which all
stand upon the paper. Perhaps no man in the House
had less personal interest in the matter than himself,
and his only object was to promote the public interest.
Mr. FORBES supported the amendment of the Hon.
Member for Montrose. He thought that the Noble
Lord had had sufficient allowance already.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the Hon. Member
for Montrose had altogether mistakten his (the Noble
Lord's) proposition. He did not think that it would de-
prive Members of any privileges, and it would give the
opportunity to Government of forwarding many Bills
which would otherwise have to be postponed.
Mr. DENISON thought the effect of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Montrose's motion was to give individual legis-
lation a priority over Government legislation. Now of
all legislation individual legislation was the worst.
Mr. SPOONER would support the amendment if it
were pressed to a division. He hoped the Noble Lord
would give them the benefit of orders of the day, if he
did not lot them take notices.
Mr. M. GIBSON said Thursdays at the beginning
of the session were better worth having to an inde-
pendent Member than Thursdays at the end, but they
were not less valuable to Government at the end
than at the beginning, for Government could keep a
House where an independent Member could not, and
therefore he said, as one who had some interest in the
matter, he hoped they would have the Thursdays at the
beginning of the session.

Sir GEORGE GREY did not agree with the Hon.
Gentleman in thinking Thursdays were of no more
value to Government at the beginning than at the
end of a session. The object of having
those days set apart for Government was to
suable them to get their Bills sent up to
the other House of Parliament at the earliest possible
period; and if they were refused the Thursdays at the
beginning of the session, of course that object could not
be attained. _ _

Mr. HUME would do all he could to preserve the little
opportunities that remained to independent Members for
bringing on their tuotionti, and he should divide the How
011 the question.

The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 3B

Against it

140

Majority against the amendment --102
On our admission to the gallery we found
Mr. DISRAELI speaking, who said that he certainly
thought with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that this
was an abbreviation of the privilege of the independent
Members of the House, and a complete circumscription
of the rights of the representatives of the people. If the
motion was persevered in, he should certainly take the
sense of the House.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the system had worked
well, and the division just taken showed the sense of the
House upon it.
Mr. HUME said that he had observed that since 1840
there had been a great increase of arrears towards the
end of the session, and in no year greater than during
last session. The custom had evidently worked badly,
and ought to be amended.
Sir R. H. INGLIS, not being one of those who had
any wish to live and die on the floor of the House,
would support the proposal of the Noble Lord. He
thought that there was sufficient time wasted in speak-
ing in this House to satisfy the appetites of any assem-
bly in the world.
Sir R. PEEL did not think that there was too much
time given to independent Members. He had been rather
tempted to vote with the Noble Lord opposite, by hear-
ing him say that it was the intention of Government to
take all important measures of legislation under their
charge. That sentiment was rather at variance with the
Noble Lord's opinions on farmer occasions. When
he (Sir R. Peel) recollected the time that had
been given to the discussion of the measure
regarding tenant-right which had been brought on last
session, he did not think that individual legislation was
very successful. On :the whole he was disposed to give
a reluctant assent to the motion of the Government.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ... 143
Against it ... ... 47
Majority .„
The motion was therefore carried.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL,
ADJOURNED DEBATE.

•• • -9 6

On the order of the day being read for resuming the
debate on the second reading of this Bill,
Mr. SCOTT rose to move that the second reading of
the Bill be postponed until further papers on the subject
be laid on the table of this House. He said, being
of opinion that the House ought to give to the Austra-
lian colonies fundamental laws similar to those of our
own country, he could not consent to the Bill being read
a second time. He did not think we should long retain
those colonies if institutions so entirely different from
those which we ourselves enjoyed were continued in them.
In France and the United States this principle had
worked badly, and he could not understand on what in-
ducement the Government had adopted it with regard to
the Australian colonies. The Bill which was now before
them continued on the existence of one chamber of
legislature in those colonies. Now the Government—
every member of it, so far as he understood—and all the
colonial governors, had expressly declared their settled
convictions that one chamber of legislature was not
sufficient to ensure the careful consideration of those
laws by which any considerable community was to be
or ought to be governed. Universal experience bad
shown that the reliance upon the wisdom of one
body of men was quite insufficient to ensure
sound conclusions for the direction of a colony.
A true and fair illustration of such a state of
things in this country, would be to suppose that 230
Members of that House were nominees of the Govern-
ment, and forced to vote as Government pleased:
such was the state of government in Australia.
One chamber had no precedent, there was not a
single precedent in history for one chamber, looking
back from the time of Mr. Pitt's Bill down to the date
of the present papers which were laid before the House.
It was much more likely to continue quarrels between
the chamber and the Government by having one
house instead of two. He could give more instances than
one of the danger which had arisen in our colonies
from the over-anxiety of a single chamber to pass
laws. By this Bill, however, they granted the colony
one chamber, but it went even farther than that, for it
gave the colonists the power of adopting whatever go-
vernment they thought fit. Nothing was more
calculated to create discontent in the colony,
and he therefore hoped the House would
amend the Bill at once, and assimulate the government
of the colony to that of the mother country.
The Secretary of State for the Colonies had
stated that certain persons in this country, who re-
presented the settlers in New South Wales, expressed
their satisfaction with one legislative chamber, but
the general opinion in the colony was that there
ought to be two chambers, and, therefore, their
representations must have been incorrect.—(Hear.)
He thought the measure bad been undertaken without
due consideration, and he therefore opposed the second
reading of the Bill. and would move that the second
reading should be deferred till further papers were pro-
duced on the subject.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that it was the intention
of Government, by this Bill, to enlarge the constitution
of those colonies, and to enable them to legislate for
themselves, independently of this House. He was pre-
pared to prove that the wishes of the inhabitants of those
colonies were completely opposed to the opinions of the
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Scott), for they consider that one
Chamber is more conducive to their interests than two,
by means of which they will be enabled to manage their
own business. He then referred to a petition forwarded
to her Majesty by Sir C. Fitzroy, from numerous meet-
ings of the inhabitants of those colonies, if every rank,
praying for a single Chamber. By this Bill they would
give the colonies a power to form measures for them-
selves; they proposed to untie their hands, and he did
not think that they (the Government) were unwise in
doing so.—( fleas, hear.) But he did. think that it was
not asking too much for the Crown of England to retron
a power to consider any proposals that the colonies might
make in respect to matters affecting those colonies. The
desire of the colonies was, that the Legislature of this
country should give them two Chambers instead of one.
Now, as an abstract principle, he should prefer two Cham-
bers to one; but if they were to have a single Chamber, he
thought there should be such a counterpoise as the
Government proposed to that system. He thought it
most desirable that the House should confine itself at
present to the considerat on of the question before it,
and that it could on other occasions deal with the
measure in its details. He had gathered much from
the Australian newspapers of the state of public feeling
there on the subject, and he had no doubt the proposed
Bill would give satisfaction to the colonists. Ho hoped,
therefore, that nothing would occur to mar the measure,
and trusted that the House would not dissent from the
second reading of the Bill.—(Hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK could not approve of the sort of
constitution which the Government proposed to give to
the colonies in question. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman who had just sat down said that the Bill now be-
fore the House proposed to give enlarged powers to the
colonists. Now, as to the manner of those powers, and
to the principles of this Bill, he (Mr. Roebuck) at once
objected. It was a Bill that would give to the nominees
of the Crown in the colonies a power which he hoped the
House would dissent from. The Government proposed
that the Legislature of this country should throw off
their own shoulders a responsibility, and they said, in
effect, that the Legislature of this country was not now
fit to govern ;the Colonies.---(" Hear, bear," from Mr.
Hume.) The Hon. Member for Montrose cried " Hear,
hear," as if he (Mr. Roebuck) meant to say that this
country could not govern the colonies; but such was not
his meaning. What he wished the House to do was to
form such a constitutional measure as they could send
out to the colonists with confidence, and as would put
an end to the constant conflicts which were arising be-
tween the mother country and her colonies. He thought
that the Government was about to propose some well-
directed measure, some great and comprehensive scheme
of legislation, whereas the proposed Bill was the great-
est abortion that could be.. If he took in his hand the
constitution of the Cauadas brought in by Mr. Pitt, he
found it clear, definite, and logical; it told them what
the franchise which was to elect the Assembly was; but
the measure now proposed was miserably deficient in
those respects. What did the Government now do

They began by reciting five or six Acts of Parlia-
ment, without repealing them. Now, what did that
mean? They talked of sending out a constitution to the
colonists, but none but the eye of a lawyer could under-
stand it. As to the Bill giving to those colonists what
was strictly called a House of Commons, he utterly de-
nied it. Now, what ought this House to do with respect
to those colonies? Why, to see that a proper constitu-
tion, made by Act of Parliament, should be sent out to
them. They were told in the House that one of those
colonies, South Africa, a cut-and-dry constitution had
already been sent out from the Colonial-office. Now,
would it be said that while the authorities in Downing-
street could send out a cut-and-dry constitution to South
Africa, the Parliament of Great Britain was not to have
the power of framing a constitution for South Austra-
lia? They might talk of giving great powers by the
proposed constitution, but it was no such thing; it was
nothing else but a mere device to retain the power in
a few hands in the government i❑ the colonies. He
would caution the House how they were proceeding--
he would caution them how they wore laying
a foundation which it would be difficult to get rid of.
Time, he granted, might work out a cure of the evils,
which, through some singular caprice, was giving birth
to this strange " juggle" of a constitution—(Laughter.)
Let them take care that they did not, by this proceeding,
loosen the tie which this country now had on the colo-
nies. Let them take care that they did not abandon
their right of power in those colonies. He would now
refer the House to the abuses which resulted to the Ca-

nadas and the mother country from the mismanagement,
ignorance, and despotism which in former times marked
the acts of the parties at the head of the colonial de-
partment. An attempt was made by Mr. Pitt to create
and establish an aristocracy in Canada, but he utterly
failed; yet, in the face of every failure in that way, it
was now proposed to make the experiment in Australia.
He thought there were tAirt,e parties in the back-ground
who were urging this scheme, and seeing the Hon. Gen-
tleman the Under-Secretary for the Colonies in his
place, he must say that he, like his superior in office,
was made a tool of in this business.

Mr. HAWES—Nu, no.
Mr. ROEBUCK—If the Hon. Gentlemen is desirous
to make out that his superior only was the tool, he (Mr.
Roebuck) would leave him the liberty to do so.—
(Laughter.) The Hen. and Learned Gentleman then
proceeded to rater to the unsatisfactory Etat° of things
in the Canadas, which were becoming in every respect
so like the United States that British subjects, desirous
of living under English laws. English government, d
British:protection. preferred in the present day to emi-
grate to South Africa. They were sending out very
large bodies of English, Irish, and Scotch to their colo-
nies, and he thought it most desirable that they should
take care to give them, what he believed t'aey.wish",
such a constitution as would ensure to them Diltleh rule.

-----------
Well, they were now about to make a eonstitutittsr
Englishmen located in Australia, and was the measure,
he would ask, such a one as would prove satisfactory to
the colonists? It was clear it was not.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think he had ever besrd
so many errors and mistakes with respect to constitu-
tional theory, history, and practice, as the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had made in the course of his "Pecc
—(A laugh, and Hear." The Hon. and Learned
)
Gentleman had referred to the Act of Mr. Pitt, but he
could not have selected a more unfortunate model, becausn
by that Act the Government of Canada, being divided
into the Legislative Council, the members of which were
paused by the Government, and the popular Assembly'
many bitter dissensions arose between the people and Foil:
Assembly, and the consequence was, that legislati
came to an entire stop, in consequence of the impost
bility of making the two bodies act together.
810
Mr. ROEBUCK had merely quoted Mr. Pitt 's Act
a clear mode of making a legislative constitution put in
a logical form.
Lord J.,RUSSELL—If the Government had proposed
a measure that would act well, it was content to givel t!,1).
something in point of logical precision and elegance of tr.
guage, for the sake of the substantial benefits of good LI.
vernment. The Hon. Member said it required care, atte.
tion, and legal knowledge, in order to understand Ins:
Bill. Now, he would not say that persons must °°ettlhas
care and attention, but it was not too much to ask to
care and attention should be used, and with resat
legal legal knowledge, it would not require more than an
Taaintance with those general principles of la" withia
which Members of that House ought to be familiar d
matters of legislation.--(Hears) The Hon. and Tear ter
Gent'eman a ,ked how it was the Government bad Pof
ferred a Legislature formed of a single body, instead of
having a Legislature composed of two bodies, both„ed
whom should be elective. And the Hon. and Learned
Member said—" Never mind the opinion of Austrli,
and New South Wales, but frame a constitution ace,.e
ing to your own notions of what is right and desirsenived
That was new language from the Hon. and Learshst
Member. The House would not, however, suppose -•
Gover;:o
what he spoke of as the fanciful measure of the
ment had been the constitution by which since 184 The
colony of New South Wales had been governed.
office
Hon. and Learned Member said it was the Colonial' us.
that had introduced this measure, and this was the Sen
mon way in which the power of the Crown was °P
ace-
d. But it was the power of the Crown' goo•
cised through the Secretary of State, which tee Lion
Member disputed, when he said that every constitt!
on.
of a colony must be in the first instance selected and
proved of by Parliament. In 1842. after a Colluath
urinated by the Crown had legislated for New "der
Wales, an Act of Parliament was introduce% under
which a Legislative Council was established, 05,cr-awn,
of the members of which were named by the 7,1,-iuce-
and two-thirds elected by the people of the Pr; said,
Now, if the people of New South Wales he" d we
sere
-
wish " We do not approve of that single chamber, 813
to have two chambers instead of one," those r
used
sentations would have been laid before the Coratc-aon•
of the Privy Council, who would have seriousliki be
sidered the mode in which such a constitution sh°l/, was
conferred. The Honourable and Learned Metossbtaisl-
mistaken in supposing that the clerks of the sec"sofeat
office— although they did their duty with it'soce,
ability—had to decide a question of this in:Wt.-hot,
which was not left even to the Secretary of St,,,sw„acile
was referred to u Committee of the Privy vc-aoas
who made their report, which was afterwards do
sidered by the Government, and then, oft.r
the o°lltbe
ere-
deliberation, and upon the responsibility of
meet, the measure was introduced. The opinion °eet
Committee of the Privy Council and of the Govern:jos
also was probably theoretically in favour of to° c say,
bers. The colonists, on the other hand, did notnresa
We have maturely considered the question hee'd as
the Legislature composed of a single chamber slitbei
composed of two bodies," but they did say IPieshere
already had a Legislature in the colony, in oh',°",e-d by
was a large popular element, one-third being seiec-e- de-
the Crown and two-thirds by the people—and the/ sclo
Glared that they did not wish for any change to bed
in the principle of that Legislature until they 113'd jo
the opportunity of considering such a change, °coat
what manner it should be effected.—(Hear, heor•)sear.)
was all that the Government now proposed.--esT„oai;
They proposed to say—" We will listen to that 0p the
we have introduced a measure similar to that ohic"sies-
colonists of New South Wales already have, and that her
sure will remain in force until you have considered svhsebor
a different form of constitution will he desirable, anu jot
the two chambers shall be formed, when a favourablells,he
shall be taken of your opinions on that subject. of
power would still remain in the Crown, howere'ijae.
allowing or disannulling that change in the constil° serf
Council the Government had to frame a second Lego©
Council and Upper House fur Australia, it would he
eit •
doubtful if they would be able to frame at one suf she
second chamber as would meet the approbation °ode
colonists of South Australia. In the Cape of Good
',mild -es,
the Government proposed that the election se--sabee,
veited in certain bodies, and in certlia persons "s'ilsr
office under Government. He believed that no sold
offices existed in Australia, but even if they did, is '
be by no means clear to him that Australia eou sbo
South Wales would prefer such a body of electors toot
single body now proposed to be established in to the
colonies. The Government might have proposed :sbee
House to pass a measere which did not meet the li`bs
of the colonists, or they might have proposed a 13d1 to
„osts
first sent out to the colony, and then, upon the rer,-bey
and representations made by the colonists theretP: they
might, a year hence, have framed a measure svm' the
might suppose would be acee table t. ,an
colonists. But was it not a much Pore relicilre! gone
outlandtha, the constituti,n now before much morso
that, the Constitution now before the more
h,viss-e the
met with tee approbation of the 'eon
fratnch" "'rho
Government should carry out a measure
that principle, leaving it to be ..ettle 1 measure
or uYi e'ot
colonists themselves whether the, should or shale pod
colonistshone •
make a chanee in that constitution?—(rseler, eta
He submitteet the Hems] that the Government vv
~,Ø
pursuing a course much more consistent with deferel:;:s
to the opinions of the colony than the course which ye,
Hon. Member called upon them to pursue. It was tit
CO
sirable where a Lsgislative Council existed thEtiht,
should be a body having a certain degree of one-
authority, and confidence in its Members. It vsol
sue
sirable also that they should act as a cheek °l' he
the Assembly, and that they should pot ion
the mere echo of the popular repsesen"ier
which was to form the basis of the , • e
chamber. In several of our colonies the Legis";ouos
Council had but little weight, in consequence of itse "who
sisting of persons nominated by the Crown, allue
had no weight except as having been so norninetese „al
ancient societiee like that of the mother country,
.g
0
even in the United States, this difficulty might be 11°-
over by the eminent position and distingos'irloper
quirements of the individuals selected for the `-'l"seg
House, or Senate of either it nut ell-
to say, " Point out a colony ancli
country• but was e w
second chamber may be formed in • eHe (torsi s d
Russell) said, that in some II.
see°
of our colonies such a hie for
chamber was not to be formed, and it was &sill'," r to
will tell you ;Lb:
those who contended for a second elective chltras'see ens'
point out such conditions as were requisite in teiri-Oseres
bers, if such a chamber could be fulfilled. The,", coo'
ment, then, were continuing by the present Bionrcis no
stitution against which they had certainly hewed tt
very loud remonstrances, and ho
would be more acceptable to the c°",-, as
than to have one sent out from this coull'iter.
a model of perfection which they were not t° wbich
The Hon. Member had alluded to the difference goes,
he said existed between Canada and the United 'ce of
and he had attributed this difference to the infliti,eh-rdli
the Colonial-office. Now he (Lord John Russel,Posostfr
knew in what respect the united provinces er other
were not as free as the state of New York, or °nil, ohs'
of the United States of America. It was true t"; truer,
bitants of Canada could not elect their own G°.isd the
that being the connoxion between the Crown a-a 5 Lb°,
colony. But, on the other hand, in such mattersstooss
imposition of the tariff, and the levying the liberty°
duties, the inhabitants of Canada had far greater otbet
than was enjoyed by the state of New York, or any were
of the states.—(Hear, hear.) In these respect'
.tholord
left more free to pursue their own course. fie e oeoise-g
Russell) believed that the dissentions between isle to
parties :in Canada had been the great ghats cop-
their progress, and that the unfortunate division
rifle
posed to have been the suggestion of Lord Grense of
between Upper and Lower Canada had been the „
„real a great part of the slow progress of those Pr" „real
But he had occasion to show the other night t
the c%
increase which was taking place in the wealth, i be stsO
ports, and the population of the Canadas.; and areal
nothing to prevent those provinces matting a-f' AO"
progress in these respects as any of the states °
b
rice, except, perhaps, some of the younger obtr
ide
There was no measure for their internal benefit -case -
the Secretary of State for the Colonies would re' wbieh
consent, and a great proportion of the questiorcenod:
concerned them would be settled by the peoPle °the
without the slightest interference on the part loose
vernor or the Secretary of state. He therefor the sbe se-
with confidence to the support of. the Hos'? tmeed wit?,
cond reading of this Bill, which had been trte esal or
very considerable care, after knowing the gend
nion of the colonists of New South Wales, a° 101 l
as far as the Government could learn, had hcellh6e;st to°e„
of in the colony. He thought it would have rde 0034
inexpedient if the Government bad thrown 051,0 t would
Bill to frame a Bill on their own notions of o,uoauesiog
Gheandtstioivro, f vrttieo-
be desirable, and if, instead of the princiPlo l'ldepsed 11,ie
the people to govern themselves, they
proposition of the Hon. and Learned
would endeavour to set aside the prerogsVonji On
Crown, the opinion of the colonists, and legiehe
some fantastic notions of his Own.—(Cheerf.) reater
Mr. F. PEEL had no objections to offer t0.....t.Fr„,1,6 heir%
part of this measure. He approved of Port ..F.e"i's,shicls
made into a separate district, and of the provoi"su alter
allowed the Legislative Council in each colon,' "of the
charge of
the charges on the civil list, except the
ebati°l3
Governor's salary, without requiring the
the Government before 'these changes carnOslose oorpo;
tion. It was also a wise provision to cancel:n
mourtaerit
rate institutions which were established
nal s'
sob ish
under letters patent in New Synth Wales, eto_niit:ti to tt?°
aPPI:n-to °Per"-
excited discontent and appeared to ben... nseir,
"apiprosal inus-
wants and wishes of the colonists.—(ll
principle of the Bill had also his hearty 5 indiepp.
recognition of a popular representation a
_enuyernase.
of the ttuf douDw,
rea able element in the formation
lea slation shs a
chamber. Ile should like to see die
But he owned he was predisposed
h osercielo
between two distinct legislative bodies, ‘aear boo
negative upon the other's proceedings 1B could
o°11;c1 be to
The Noble Lord himself admitted that t , owe.
a secono d
best course. This truth in favour of
Noble r"°l. ot
in favour e
was admitted and conceded both by the He did
vn
self and the Committee of Privy Counc.s.siatiug ur.
say the House would be justified in gf wishes
,°,l
but "c atter
abstract notions against the expressed doubt,
peculiar circumst laces of the colony, bon his In e
01013
whether the colony had expressed a ois'
in that clear and tgunistakablo Tray which WQI44

, ______.__
Jnltifjt a deviation from the usual type of colonial go-
t„lerornente The opinion of the colorists of New South
des was to be sought in the resolutions passed at
Public meetings, in the acts cf rhe Assembly, and in the
dispatches of the Governor. With regard to the resolu-
tie
be
' passed at public meeting., he believed it was int the
dele of 1847 that L rd Grey first communicated,
in a
di'listeh, his proposition for remodelling the constitution
of that colon
y. That scheme met with great opposition,
Slid excited much discontent. It contained a proposition
toeivide the legislative body into two chambers, but it
ea
';ati-i not aelinst that part of the scheme that the indig•
on of tithe colonists was raised. It was to that por-
r of it which proposed to deprive the colonists of the
drietitisic they then enjoyed, and reduce them to the con-
- 0 nsere primary electors -to elect the district
c?etteils, by'whotn again the representatives of the Le-
gttive Council were be nominated.—(Hear, hear.)
x-
ste!Y Petttion, indeed, from the colony, with ono e
teti°o, consplained of the attempt made to deprive
Was
of their elective franchise.—(liear, hear.) It thisd
With
'll the ease with the people, how did the matter stun
the Leeisl. Cy Council ? No sooner (lid the Le.'
gi'lstive
than imeetl after Lord Grey's dispatch ar-
tit,
eiteo-1, than they resolved themselves into a Committee
this e whole House and by a small majority adopted,
e t considerable discussion, a resolution to this effect:—
That. this Council is disposed to view. favourably the
teiPtlltion for se crating the deliberations of the. nomi-
te;3 (I the Crown from those of the representatives of
WerePe°Ple.”—(llear, hear.) The Executive Councill.-
littieeenaninsously in favour of a division of the egisf
N e-eueflY, and with respect to the Governors both o
piercer, nth Wales and Van Diemen'e Land, they de-
beil,C toernselvet in favour of a separation of the two
ex„ es. Ile therefore could not find in Australia any
erssioe of opinion adverse to the proposition for di-
the„.ll4,the Legislature into two chambers ; and, as he
*Out such a line of policy could be supported hy.rea-
sr rta well as experience and as he could find uo form
oftvertunent that would be better fitted for the people
iati trite meat
he considered it desirable that the legis-
/Ve authority should be shared by the two bodies.h
Geesetiaw was equally applicable to the structure of the
tae hot Assembly. The federal union should represent_e i4;ttotrests of the states as collective bodies, lit!4 t Pts of the inhabitants of those states as individuals,n
ilietlar.) So far as the first class of interests were in
ts thete one state being as independent and sovereign
ie the °ether, they should have an equal representationfin.
let - `lssembly• but, so far as the second class o
413
w ' should
dershas concerned, that class . have a prepon-
Ite eoe in the number of representatives.—(Hear, hear.)
"11494 not but think that if the link Or connexionear
't Wouldit basw proposed to establish was to be permanent,.
Is ettiee.,, e necessary to place a constitutional. barrier
other -.mica encroachments of the one state against thed
iltuiee;lieerB)—and that that would be best secure.
kese :hug the representatives of the statetositin
ap "'her and the representatives of the inhabitants
°Jth'eneheer•se, (Cheers.) He believed it was the destiny
'Rev pep
of Australia to increase and spread over
the, 'en territories on which they had settled, and that
p(14,:,e the germ of future nations. He was firmly
hal-d4"4 that the form of their colonial government
thee,h4ezi°,,reise a powerful influence upon the interests,in
tie' elf ee,e-ess, and the prosperity of a country now
wet r'l -.7 ; and he hoped that they would stamp upon
'cintheeter4d°l eoternrnent the impress of the best inste n
l'hich Viable those colonists to enter upon the nareeer
"4/of le-ereeore them with all the advantages in t
-flier ' -tical institutions that it was in our power to
i Sir 14°,4 them,—(Cheers.)
to
;II'uOLESWORTEI thought that if they were
L' et 'e 6' discussion of the details of the Bill till they
-118t11111 -°lroittee, they were entitled to ask the Noble
te dee' at fair opportunity be given to lion. Members
N muss
Appearedtogs Measure and to propose amendments.d It
et him that the Bill was not as clear aa ex-
'beteilletti it.tnight be made. The Bill, in laying down
'a which the government of the colonies as
bete tong acted, referred to three Acts, portions of which
eg'ttoelec°°ilintie in force under the new system. Now,
Ttee 8 l'econeneed he Noble Lord to eeal those
toren;elitPe, andn tto simplify the presentrmeasure
Pill tot git in those portions of them which he wished
e I:1%4;e, Re (tercet' with the Right Hon. Gentleman
;14 it:rat oeh Boa d of Trade, that they ought to
e9t:l4,teuse Colonial Legislatures the right to frame for
hs7"lrithl '7, the constitutions which they might think.,most
tlls toe:2.e! in that case they could adapt their institu-
th spy "ll' sense of their own wants and interests; and
lhisei ei.rr°r which they might commit they would have
and'4ll;4 °TAY to blame But he could not think that
• -.11 then
before I: that principle could be fully
I see, en teens
Nuf terried into effect. Fur his part, he should wish
Ztsi-e'titolh:t t_heygeoveernor of each colony should within a
teeteople
_,"0.11 n a constituent assembly elected by
then delegate to that as-
r,'4 13' th'e°l the colony, and - • t' li
tlis th - Power to frame their own constitu ion,
(NIL Pe°wer, at the same time, to any extentev _tht_ae
etsija e'ound necessary. The more he considered the
14 it 0`
the Bill the mo did he become c
tolo e would
be 'lats. re oat give permsnen.t satisfaction to the
le'tl late! Re found that a series of resolutions had
eel the 'lawn up by Mr. Low, a distinguished mem-
14:t Tio ree'asetably of New South Walehs,nedfiecelinairintgn
teteelonyl.rht:e would be acceptable or e
teZognitien ';',,eh did not embody among other things.e_
d that the colonists should have their g.
41111Pleeenttalitirministered by persons responsible to their
be', by ministered
that the Government. should be remov-
-0;01° the 4 ,vote
of the Colonial Legislature, and that
t ilk e elected representatives of the people there
~re'le "0 associat e
tliet e no nominees of the Crown. It was
tim those resolutions had not afterwards bee. n
ti tikb,7 Mr. Low. but he (Sir W. Moleswortne
tree
e°,..0 to think that they conveyed the sen-
leeesee'' the colonists generally upon the system
%bleed. ternent which they wished to see este-
4,Niqi he Bill of the Noblehowever,
th'lth4l:!ltie of these provisiorisn he,with
dithLord,tbrefore, be-
Pere 1414'4 would not be received satisfaction by
tat, !laded tanta of New South Wales. Indeed he felt
:"'ltle that no measure would be acceptable or per-
-1,,,,0hi,r, eeeficial to them which. did not deprive: he
itu'llt el p`nee of its present arbitrar • power of inter-
Weeehlieir internal affairs. He would 3 give an in-
ttlt,'l• e;" prejudicial effects of t he existence of that
e,_!)ll4,,hie, inhabitants of Sydney, amounting to 50,000
'lt er` 'ken anxious to remove the slaughter-house
iklleeftftY to a spot at some distance; but on inquiry
6lltitit l'iod that they could not accomplish that obld-
ht' of the lapse of a year, when they shouldfotuhe
h,lte,l4tued the necessary consent of the head o
litiN-°eMee in this country. Now, thereh was surely
Iflooiee4sen why such consent should e required.
k . °kit, e of this country were too much. in the. habit
!legit! teed the colonists as subjects and inferiors. H. e
'PO Pe--"p4 °II the contrary, that the colonies were in-
kiheethq'°Os of the British empire, inhabited by, men
ettrilyl; t° enjoy in their own locality all the rights
ilt' 4,11444,8 which Englishmen enjoyed elsewhere.
141411144`31.:EY said that the colonists of Now South
of
SILRIo eh distinctly pronounced against the scheme
off
egtre'Ple „4°Lleeher composed in part of representatives
Nl'Etterr"" in part of nominees of the Crown.
ofHee
INIMO °I7, 4 former evening that the growth
kOttlte:scs iu New South Wales had been in a great
4st:ltisiie.(4eeed by the acts of Sir G. Arthur, who, in
'litif, the of some defalcation in the Treasury, had
"„h,„,Mte "„Public money in private banks. But he
l'it"htliet.ta,4,that opportunity of saying that he ad
ittisktleiSemcarge Sir G. Arthur with the mischief
\title sectll4LES said that he was prepared to sup-
t Iltltrt
be 44 lc reading of the Bill, because. ho was per-
IN e
et Majesty's Ministers in. introducing. it
tetttlitill L'etuat e sincere desire to give free
thttl t °lto to
meld by a very.
which they believed to be
el%‘"ttyiettilreqete (t).llleemeo.leuHlescould not, however, think
liPk,k th%tvercal.ent hade chosen the best mode of
to that desire into effect. They seemed to
I;s' rlllie the inhabitants of New South
_Wales.
te-lied to the establishment of a double cnheavinev
Otili'll,besettileee fact was that the question had
had never
)er'that:; to the colonists, btewcoa,
tijth te o,i„,gy could obtain elective chambers
e'estl re " doubted whether they would be satisfied
'l.N4):h:thhellee-_ai.nogoeiarndetnht proposed. in that Bill, when they
chambers were to be given
:tltl'eiet'tferia°4•e Thaetptewoupleof
whenthis country fell, in his
they supposed that
Ntre'ewhee, serious error
House were the nominees of
titi'' 4; th i ° Upper Duke of Norfolk and
tt e 'act being that the. N Ito a' WO)
li ,tth 41 th
riough they had originally( derived their
tilis 41 thee.,„\-rown, were at present no more its norni-
,t.tt'er ee Members of the House Commons itself.
stele ',he DI °llles the Government officials were:remov-
-01 titsure of the Crown.
Os „Nei fe Said, he was prepared to
.support the
_ nto4,ti Z. 411,9,.t of the Bill, although he coald not ap-
Ott is' itis', Provisions. He believed that the only
it, Plt h.% te-Pirie -
pi ,i; confidence in any of our colonies
ti;ete"ed. isseels;te thern effective legislatures. The NobleSt
te;‘)eltilii":,°at he wished to check the democracy. u
1,4'1411,0e inhabitants were all members of the
bead `title," there the check of the Noble Lord would
h ;:teCPlaced. He believed that if our colonies
tre' es'tl4eated there would be no reason to appre-
leieapelle J Would attempt to separate from us, because
111:1;*11.;' byeliltintle bound to us by the connexion
ill, eel° .e tee_ feeling of self-interest, and by family
'h. fttrilinltts
_fled to find that it was proposed, that.h
40111)3 °Fthitg°4ld not havejthe power of dealing with
toe't Dr tel, del)
i.ehurch. He saw no reason why they
ti. I (11.13 i Cell of hat power; and he believed that
11,14iteltm.tate%11),if it weretoremain unaltered, would be-
tit:t ths6Zion "fle of contention and a source of much
4--e'llr the-f.4iil te; elle could only repeat his anxious wish
I.`etti" the o'4'4 Pass as speedily as possible, and
6;4.171' o- Ctrirnent might allow some of its im-
ot ben e 1 5 AWts relnoved in Committee.
Nl"tlBrace‘ anticipated that this debate would give
Ql4,litlee -°, in the colony from the desire expressed.
litet7ttie;Zoatever might be the difference of opt-
oN, 4, to th to frame a measure which should b.e
IV 1' ee,,e," eolo.nists themselves.
.One of the main
VllotverV4 aginnet it was that it establishei. a
, kh'itisie,e4thot for the Australian colonies which
5,,4 ''„cl on,' t? that provided for the colonies in ge-
t to tri*roich was not coincident with what was
tli,l'-s of who ,eli Constitution. There could
__ no
,te,r%.t‘,l"rie3o"ler they took the report of the Com-
o ,I iert, or ne"Tieli, the opinion of the Ministers of
tee eke', Pree„"e the governor of the colony—all con-
kc ei'uidly -rttoe two chambers to one.—(Cheers.)
110te °Ppes.r"de the admission, and those who
k iht Of • -Ite view • use they
Lse tilt, It, A disci might make what
e, e em to
.nct reason had been asked for a
till4tl4i 'the his %% het had been admitted to be the best
ltittej,!° exist:ePlY was that, wherever a representative
i,l'edr o Dl' th forgo'1' aral you proposed to make great
glAtill'''t tols of governmeni, the representative
itlll:'etl‘voulebbeee°oosulted in the first instance. Good
11,1 ilt, the People or Neve South Wales were content
,i,tillit Itlltionarnl of government, and had formally
tIllt) then in theYsaid• " Whatever changes yon make
4; pi exi4t__, first inetene,,.,, e .
. -- en the case of the
QM eteeveu no previous representative consti-
Y" the prepared, in the case of New

South Wales, at the present moment entertaining a
strong opinion in favour of two chambers, to say at
I once that the colony should have two chambers
forced on !heal against the cleclarat;on of the inhabi-
taatz? Did this Bill prevent the colony ffom adopting
two chambers if they de,dred it ?—(llear.) Certainly
not, and he could not help thinking, from his observa-
tions on this point, that the lion. and Learned Member
for Sheffield had not read the Bill. Of this there
could be no doubt—that if they now decided on having
two chambers the result would be to impede the progress
of the measure, fle. it would in that case be necessary to
refer to the colonies, and obtain a vast deal of prelimi-
nary information. It might, indeed, well be doubted
whether the materials for two chambers at present
existed, and one of the speakers at the meeting to
which reference had been made prominently expressed
that doubt. For his own part, he believed that two
chambers might exist there, but ho had no other reason
for this opinion than that it was a thriving and intelli-
gent colony. If it were the wish of the colonists to has e
two chambers, it was not by the nominees of the Crown
that their wish could be thwarted, inasmuch as the
governor of the colony, the First Minister of the Crown,
the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and the Com•
mittee of Privy Council, were in favour of it. With
respect to the Church, the Government did not
propose to create anything new. The New South
Wales Church Act was in existence, and gave general
satisfaction. No doubt there were some, here and
there, who thought that no state provision should be
made for religion, but, speaking generally, the existing
arrangement had been a source of satisfaction in the co-
lony. With respect to South Australia there was no
such provision, and none was made by this Bill. For
there reasons he thought, notwithstanding the crit cisms
which had been passed upon it, that the Bill, as it stood,
would be found most acceptable to the colonies, and
would work well. But he did not speak speculatively,
for the colonial newspaper press bore testimony to the
satisfaction with which it was regarded.—(Hear.)
Mr. V. SMITH observed that not a single voice had
been raised in favour of a single chamber; and after the
speech of the Hon. Under-Secretary, he began to doubt
what they were discussing. The debate had been con-
fined to a single clause on which all were agreed, or,
rather, with which all disagreed.—(Hear.) As to the
experience on which so much stress had been laid,
what was it? An experience of seven years.
And where was the popular assent ? He could
see none. With respect to the federative ques-
tion, he had not heard a word. What was the
pretext for establishing such a system in Australia? No
petitions had been presented in its favour, and they had
neither popular satisfaction nor experience to appeal to
in this case. In the United States such a system was
intelligible for the purpose of transactions with foreign
states; but how would this apply to a colony ?—(Hear.)
For his own part, he had no desire to see this country
become the disseminator of republican institutions all
over the world. He regretted that the questions of the
colonial military expenditure and the transportation of
convicts had not been alluded to. With regard to the
former, the colonists themselves had admitted that with
representative institutions they ought to bear their own
burdens—with self-government they ought to have self-
defence. With regard to the latter, when the colonies
were calling out for labour, he thought it not too much to
ask them to receive some of our reclaimed convict popu-
lation, who had no chance of living honest lives in the

mother country.
Mr. ADDERLEY contrasted the conclusion arrived
at by the Committee of Privy Council, in their report of
May, 1849, in reference to the feeling of the colony in
favour of a single Chamber, with the language of a pe-
tition contained in the same paper, in which the peti-
.

tioners expressed their desire that their constitution
might be made as nearly as possible conformable to that
of the United Kingdom. Two courses were open to the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies—one to give
the colonists full p ,wer to construct a constitution; ano •
titer to give them a good constitution, which they might
by reform Bills adapt to their own wishes. But the
Noble Lord had done neither the one nor the other.
Much bad been said about not altering the constitution
which already existed, but had not the Noble Lord done
his best to alter it? The real reason, after all, was the
Noble Lord's extraordinary inclination for making con-
btitutions. The Noble Lord had introduced an anoma-

lons institution, and hoped it would succeed, merely be-
cause it favoured the principle of municipal corporations.
lie considered that the restriction in the sale of waste

lands would give Government the opportunity of intro-
ducing the convict system again. He hoped Go-
vernment would consent to the alterations that had
been suggested, and then he was certain Government
would get the cordial support of the House and the
country.
Mr. M. MILNES did not recollect that such a large
and liberal concession had ever before passed that
House, or was ever before known in the history of any
civilized state. With respect to the apparent unity of
opinion on the subject of two legislative chambers, he
wished to know whether every Hon. Member enter-
tained precisely the same idea with respect to these two
chambers. The idea of two chambers was apparently
adopted Itheause supposed to be something analogous to
the British Constitution; but if the question was inves-

tigated it would be fund that the definition would not
hold good with reference to some of the colonies. It was
true that only one chamber was by the Bill provided in
some of the colonies, but this he conceived was a strong
proof of the independence of the measure, and of the sa-
crifice of all personal feelings and views on the subject.
In France a feeling in favour of one chamber was exhi-
bited, and this might be taken as another reason why,
situated as the Australian colonies were, two chambers
were not considered to be indispensable. If we adopted
the principles of this Bill we should give the colonies
self-government. He was satisfied, if the Bill was
adopted, it would tend to perpetuate the race and lan-
guage of England in our colonies in the same glorious
way as it had done in the United States of America.

Mr. WYLD considered that juAlcs would not be
done to British subjects located in distant colon;es, such
as Canada and Van Diemen's Land, unless they were
represanted in that House. This nas no new idea, and
it was one that was founded on justice and expediency.

Mr. STANFORD considered it would have been more
to the credit of the Noble Lord when he introduced his
historical sketch of our colonies, and his exposition of
his colonial policy, had he dwelt more on the noble
sacrifices made by this country, and the enormous sums
that had been spent ,in their acquisition. It had been
asserted that the present measure was to do away with
monopoly; but he contended it was under the old sys-
tem this country grew great, and it was the system which
other countries were pursuing in order to rival our
greatness. (The Hon. Member could not be distinctly
heard in the gallery, owing to the noise in the House.)
The principle of monopoly had been instituted by our
ancestors, but it had been abandoned by this country,
having been continued by Germany and the United
States of America.—(Divide, divide.) The Hon. Gen-
man proceeded to quote from various documents to show
the distressed state of the colonies under a free-trade
system, and concluded by contending that the principles
of the Noble Lord had a tendency to break up our colo-
nial empire. He had listened most attentively to the
various speeches which had been made, and he must
offer his opposition to the measure.
The Bill was then read a second time.

DISTRESSED UNIONS ADVANCES AND RE-

PAYMENT OF ADVANCES (IRELAND).

On the question that the report be received,

CoIoneISIBT'HORP said, on the motion 'to confirm
the grant of 300,0001., it would be opposed by him, ac-
cording to the notice given by him, by moving that the
Bill be read a second time that day six months.
Mr. P. SCROPE did not know what efforts had been
made to recover these rates. The House did not know
how remiss the parties whose duty it was to collect those
rates might have been, so as to make it necessary to call
upon this country for a sum of 300,000/. Till some fur-
ther information was given to the House he thought the
House should not proceed so quickly.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that all he
wanted was, to move for the Bill, and his Hon. Friend
could speak to the merits of the Bill when be saw
At the same time he would submit to his Hon. Friend
that, although certain unions were in this distressed
state, and he proposed a loan not exceeding 300,0004
yet some of these unions would not require this as-
sistance.

Report received.
The Party Processions (Ireland) Bill went through
Committee, Mr. C. Lewis in the chair.

The Committee on the Parliamentary Voters (Ireland)
Bill was then postponed till Friday.
The second reading of the Electors (Ireland) Bill was
deferred till Friday.
The Committee on the Pirates' Head Money Repeal
Bill was deferred till Friday.
The Committee on Supply was also deferred till
Friday.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE moved for leave to bring in
a Bill to provide compensation to tenants for
improvements effected by them in certaincases,
and to amend the law of landlord and tenant
in Ireland. He said there had been various
attempts at legislation upon this important sub-
ject. In 1845 a Noble Lord had introduced a Bill into
the House of Peers, which had cover come down to the
Lower House. In 1846 a Bill was introduced into the
Lower House, which had never passed a second reading.
In 1848 he (Sir W. Somerville) introduced a Bill,
which was read a second time, with the view of
referring it to a Select Committe. I❑ that Com-
mittee many amendments were introduced, but, upon
being returned to the House, it was found impossible to
proceed with it that session, and it dropped without
having undergone a full and complete discussion. It had
not met with any great favour on account of the com-
plicated nature of the machinery by which it was pro-
posed to carry it; into effect. He proposed by the pre-
sent Bill to do away with this complicated machinery;
ho had remodelled and simplified the clauses of the Bill
of 1848, and rendered them easy of comprehension, and
he wished the measure to be laid on the table, in order
that it might be carefully read and considered. Ho bad
not altered the term or amount of the compensation, as
in the Bill of 1848; but he had abolished the umpire,
and substituted another officer. He had not introduced
any clauses to embrace the jurisdiction of the assistant-
barristers, because it was his intention shortly to intro-
duce a Bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating
to the civil bill courts in Ireland. The Bill would con-
tain a clause that ejeetmenti or nonpayment of rent
should apply to tenants horn year to year; that receipts
for rent should specify dates; that after a day to be
named no distress bo taken for rent due more than a
year before making that distress; and that the practice
bo prevented of carrying off crops on Sundays, or
by night. He feared the Bill would not satisfy the ex-
tremes of both parties iu Ireland, but he hoped it
would meet with the assent of all moderate men, parti-
cularly as it permitted voluntary arrangements to Le
made between landlords and tenants, and had for its
great objcet the encouragement of labour, the security
of capital, and the permanent benefit of the owner and
occupier of the eoil.—(Rear.)

Lord CASTLEREAGH said ho was most anxious toy
see justice done to all parties on this most important
subject. His opinion on the subject of ' the reduCtion
rents was this: The altered circumstances of the country •
would demand a consideration of the rents under which.. f:
the tenants held; and while on tho one hand he w0n.,10.
entirely discountenance a reduction of rent over alit
property belonging belonging to is landlord, not discriminating be-
tween the good tenant and the bad, so on the other ban&
he was of opinion that it behoved landlords to look intr.'s,
their property and rents, and to the condition of them.
industrious tenants, to see where the shoe pinched, anvil.
give them relief If the landlords would follow that
plan they would obtain better semrity for their rents
bereaf%er, and gain the affection of their tenants.—
(Hear, hear.) At a meeting held at Cumber, a gentle-
man warned the tenantry not to he satisfied with as
reduction of rent; anti he gave a history of an estate)
belonging to a noble relative of his (Lord Castlereagh).
That gentleman said that the estate at Cumber had.
been purchased by an ancestor of the present owner in.
the first part of the last century for 30,000/. ; that the
rent-roll was then between 3,000/. and 4,0001., but that
it was now 24,000/. Who, he asked, had made the dif-
ference ?—(Cries of " The tenants.") What would be.
the legal interest of 30,0001. ? At 5 per cent. it would.
amount to 1,5001. And then he wont on to say that the
farmers who are toiling and sweating to enrich the
landlords, aro to be their slaves or banished at pleasure
from their homilteads. This was the authority of this
Presbyterian clergyman for the fixity of tenure. " God
not only made his own people farmers, but ho gave
them their farms in perpetuity. He gave them fixity
of tenure, on which the success and prosperity of the
fanners depend. In asking for fixity of tenure, he
knew they had revelation on their side, and he believed
God had permitted the present oppressions to show the
hollowness of the relation between landlord and tenan

—(Laughter.) He had known in a parish not 12 miles
distant farmers who had been respectable men, seeing
themselves and their children reduced to beggary by no
f4ult of theirs, and who, in a moment of frenzy, com-
mitted suicide." He (Lord Castlereagh) thought this
statement so loose and general that he made some in-
quiries on the subject, and the reply was, that no
such circumstances had been heard of. The best ad-
vice he could give to the tenants was to be moderate
in their demands on their landlords, and he would
advise the landlords to consider seriously the circum-
stances of the times, and look to the welfare of their
tenants.

After a few words from Mr. M. O'Connell, Col. Dunne,
and Sir W. Somerville, leave was given, and the Bill

was brought in accordingly, and read a first time.
On the motion of Mr. WYLD the report of Dr. Farr
and Mr. Grainger to the General Board of Health on 38
metropolitan workhouses, dated the 26th day of March,
1849, was ordered to be laid upon the table of the House
and printed.
On the motion of Mr. EWART the following Com-
mittee on public libraries was appointed: —Mr. Ewan,
Lord Seymour, Mr. Disraeli, Sir Harry Verney, Mr.
Charteris. Mrßunbury, Mr. George Alexander Hamil-
ton, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. Milnes, Mr. Cornewall Lewis.

Sir John Walsh, Mr. Thicknesse, Mr. Mackinnon, Mr.
Kershaw, and Mr. Wyld.
Mr. C. LEWIS brought in a Bill to authorise the en-
closure of certain lands, in pursuance of the fifth annual
general report of the Enclosure Commissioners for
England and Wales, and to confirm the proceedings in
the matter of the Common Wood Enclosure.
The House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.