The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

fer_the having a, largereonkumi,ticm of his
gceds tilt t would he ontain,-11 by the reduction of thqtco,
duty, to tightlit Way with the ~.iword for his goods into
inicrior of Chitin. It vi•ls mat rill to ctunsider
with a reduction of the rt.-Eny is this country, we here to
increase our tora,,,s in India.. Although theAo were raid
Lys the I,f,ast India Conopany, and dui not figure in the
e;titnat, Set then swilled the half.ray li, t nod ineffi,c,

live service. He vety much doubted whether our
military system in India, on which we prided
ourselves so -muck], was, after ell, benefiting
England to the extent to
,which some persons repro-
canted. The Hen. Member below him seemed to think
that the annexation of the Punjaub had opened fresh
markets for our manufactures. He very much doubted
this, and suspected that if our military ardour in India
had -not berm' inflamed by very large amonets of
prize money, we should not have had these constant
wars. He thought. the great difficulty we had to con-
tend with in the reduction ef the military, naval, and
ordnance establishments was the excessive zeal
which the members of those different professions had fir
the interests ef their respective calling.. He did not
blame those gentlemen; he would not impute to them in-
terested motive.; it might be a: desire to ace the particu-
lar branch to which they belonged increased to what
they regarded as its greatest pitch of efficiency; but that
was not the point of view in which the House must look
at a [natter of this description. He would read a pas-
sage from Sir Henry Parnell's work on Financial Re-
form, which expressed the matter much more clearly and
forcibly than any words of his own could do:—" Every
public dspartment stands prepared to give the most cons
fieent leasons why it ie absolutely necessary to keep up
the amount of its expenditure to the exact point at
which it now is. Every kind t f sophism, insinuation,
and assertion is worked up with vast ingenuity int )
case to resist every attempt at effective retrenchment,
and not only Government and Parliament, but also the
public, sutler teemselves in this way to have their judg-
ment influenced rather by the personal authority of offi-
cial men, who toe always endeavouring to keep their re-
spective services in the highest possible state of efficiency
end show, than by the principles of a sound system
cf finance, which requires that that portion of the public
expense set apart ror purposes of military preparation
and protection should be reinlated by the quantity and
measure of the danger to bo guarded against." He
thought this extract fully expressed the views with which
his Hon. Friend had submitted this motion to the House.
As to any sudden or 'unforeseen danger arising to this
country, from a collision with a foreign power, that ap-
peared to him, in the present state of the intercourse ha-
tween the principal countries of Europe, to be quite out
of tho question. When we considered the power of the
press, of commercial intercourse raising up interests to
counteract those feelings that might spring_ up betwixt
nations where no such extensive trade existed, it was im-
possible to suppose that any hostilities of importance
could arise between this and any foreign powers without
eery long and ample preparation, and a vast deal of pub-
lic notoriety and discussion. It was not possible, out of
any accidental circumstances, to bring great countries
into-a state of hostility, and he did not believe we should
again see the time when wars would be undertaken for
purpotes of conquest, when hostile armaments should be
sent forth to establish the ascendancy of one race over
another.--(hear.) These were matters that telonged to
past ages, and which it would not be wise in that
House to make the groundwork of their policy, when
considering the amount of force necessary fir the de-
fence of the country. He found that the whole naval,
military, and ordnance expenditure of the country for
1849 was 17,000,6951., and rather more than 11,000,000!.
in 1835. He could not understand by what process of
reasoning or dexterous handling of figures. it, was con-
trived to make out that there was an increase in the naval
and military expenditure to the amount of not more than
2,000,0001. But even if it were as his Right llon. Friend
stated, the question still remained to be answered—Why
were we to spend more by 6,000,000/. than we spent in
1835? Why was his Hon. Friend to he represented as
proposing to leave the country detenceless, when he con-
sented t r apply no less a sum than 10,000,000/. to the
naval and military defences, a sum more than double the
amount of the whole expense of the civil and military go-
vernment of the United States? Those who supported
this motion could not be cherge.l with any indifference to
tie security and independence of England, or to the inte-
rests of the public credit sr. He hoped before the debate
closed that some Minister would explain clearly what was
the meaning of the policy of reducieg men without reduc-
ing officers. It was true that the number of seamen em-
ployed a as to be diminished, and some regiments reduced
in force but they kept up the number et officers as a
framework upon which the number of men could easily
be augmented, and they sent ships to sea with too many
officers, but inefficienctly manned. It had been stated
over and over again by some of the moat distinguished
officers of the British navy, that the number of officers
was entirely disproportioeed to that of men; so great
was it that many were unable to get employment, and
thus prevented from acquiring experience, or obtahring a
fair share of the emoluments of their profinision. TWA
was ore cf the many reasons why the list of the ineffec-
tive service was so extremely large. We had 150 ad
mirals when there was only work for a (keen; and
when the Right lion. Member fur Ripon (Sir .1. Gra-
ham), in the Committee Moved by his Hon. Friend,
asked on what principle this number had been fixed, the
late Seeretary for the Admiralty (Sir H. Ward) could
only answer that he did not exactty know. The list of
captains and commanders were in the same condition;
the rules of promotion established were departed from
constantly on slight pretexts. He thought these exces-
sive numbers were maintained through some mysterious
interest, which prevented the House from being the fair
representatives of the people. He appealed restect-
fully to agricultural )11 embers not to turn
their backs on motions of this description. He
could not understand, now that the corn-law had
been draposed of,, upon what principle it was
that the more possession of land should make a man
feel bound to support extravagant establishments. He
undertook to say that the share which any landed gen-
tleman might, at some time of his lire, get in spoil
arising from extravagant establishments could not re-
compense him for the burden of taxation that must
be imposed upon his property to maintain them. He
called upon them to act up to the professions they had
made in the country, to go into the whole question of
expenses, and cut down needless offices and places. They
could with perfect consistency give their votes for his
Hon. Friend, and he believed that by so doing they
would be taking the only course open to them to obtain
the reduction of the malt-tax. and the hop duties. Ile
believed they would thus be conferring an important
benefit on the country at large.—(Divide, divide.) He
saw no reason why the motion should not have the sup-
port offlonourab'e Gentlemen opposite. If his friends
had framed' a clap-trap motion for the purpose of en-
snaring gentlemen opposite, they would have loft out all
the matters relating to naval and military defences, and
couched it in some such words as these :—" That in con-
sequence of. the altered state of circumstances brought
about by the repeal of the corn-laws, it is necessary to
reduce salaries and establishments."—(Loud ironical
cheering from the • Opposition.) Unless Honourable
Gentlemen opposite would honestly and clearly join in
support of the 'reductions now proposed, it would be im-
possible to effect that remoral of taxation which they
had in view.
Mr. HENLEY said that the quostion is to determined
was, how they were, most likely to achieve that economy
which, he believed, both sides of the House were anxious
to procure.—(Hear, hear.) But when the Right lion.
Gentleman who had just sat down talked of clap-trap
motions—when he recollected the speech of the Hon.
Member for Montrose that night, and when ho remem-
bered the able and temperate speech ef the Hon. Mem-
ber for the West Riding of Yorkshire—when he found
that none of those Hon. Gentlemen grappled with any
particular branch of the question, or gave an opportu-
nity to the House to express an opinion upon it—and
when ho heard the Right lion. Gentleman the Member
for Manchester mixing up with this question questions
of odious and tyrannical taxation, pauperism, and Mine,
cheek-by-jowl with the public credit, he naturally asked
what did all this mean?—(firer, hear.) Was this mo-
tion sincerely intended to effect reduction or not?—
(Hear, hear:) Now, he was not going to vote upon the
speeches of Hon. Gentlemen that night, but upon the
motion before the House. The first clause of that
motion was incorrect, for he (Mr. Henley) did not
admit that the increase of 6,000,0001. was in the army
and navy estimates ; 4,000,C001. out of the 6,000,0001.
might be so.—(A.. laugh.) In the miscellaneous
expenditure there might have been an increase
of forty per eerie,- but in the military and naval ex-
penditure there was not the same proportion. But when
he came to the operative part of the motion ho found
that, with Chinese exactness, it proposed to go back lo a
previous standard of expenditure without reference to
whether the course was fitting, expedient, or necessary.
He asked therefore whether the motion was intended in
sincerity?—(Hear, hear.) Was it a motion which its
supporters thought would be carried? The object of the
supporters of this motion was this. A party, which ho
admitted was a great one, and possessed the means of
agitating in the country, having refused to vote the taxa-
tom proposed by the Government a year ago, and the
Government having accordingly taken the hint, were
enabled to say to' the country, " See how the Government
are reducing taxation," in order that they might go on
agitating. That was the A B Cof the present motion.
Into no one branch of the expendittire had the supporters
of the motion gone to enable the House to come to a
rote. The speeches of Hon. Gendemen were temperate
enough, but it was impossible to go back to the expendi-
ture of 1835. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Manchester had given a curious illustration upon the
subject of naval store-. To prove that the year of which
he spoke was a year of destitution the Right Hon. Gen-
tlernan pointed to the expenditure of the year 1835, and
then pointed to the amount of stores in 1834.
Mr. M. GI BSON—The first vote proposed to Parliament,
after 1834, by the Government of the Right Hon. Baro-
net the Member for Tamworth was a still further reduc-
tion upon previous ones.
Mr. HENLEY—And very natural that it should be.
—(Hear, hear.) But to prove his position, the Right
thnared tianfileBd34a,bbonutt
nctatbliens
laBn3ds.hemßupt aifnda
prudentother Gt
hei
Minister
sna:sr'
found his warehouse full, why should
he purchase more in 1835?—(Hear.) To do that would
be like buying is a second barrel of ale before the first
had been *exhausted. But the Right Hon. Gentleman
bad not explained why the estimates had been so low in
1835. We had then a decrease in the force of men, and
the necessary consequence was an accession of stores.—
(Hear, hear.) The Hoe. Member for the Went Riding
and the Hun. Member fn. Montrose, in the Motion before
the House, declared their readiness to accept the expen-
diture of 1835 as the minimum; but in their speeches
they said they would be contented with the average of
the three years. Now between which of the too did they
mean to make their election? Tho average of the
three years would amount to a million more than the
average of the year 1835. The truth was that
motions of this kind only • expressed the views of
particular. persons, and were intended to effect parti-
ogler objects. lie dared say it was convenient for