The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-20 00:00:00

CONIMITTRE ON OFFICIAL SALARIES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL gavo notice that on Monday
next he should more that the following Hon. Members
he appointed as the Select Committee:—Lord Jobn
Russell, Mr. Wilson Patten, Mr. Bright, Sir John Yaree
Buller, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Beckett, Mr. Napier, Mr.
Home Drummond, Mr. William Evans, Sir William
Molesworth, Mr. Henley, Mr. Ellice, Mr. Ricardo, Mr.
Walter, and Mr. Deedes.
MERCANTILE MARINE BILL

Lord J. MANNERS inquired when it was the inten-
tion of the President of the Beard of Trade to go on
with this Bill.
Mr. CARDWELL also wished to know whether it

was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to take
any steps to place the Bill before Members in the shale
in which he meant to proceed with it.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said, though he was most
anxious to bring forward the Bill still ho was not pry -
pared to state when he would be able to proceed with the
Bill. With regard to the second question, be was quite
ready to withdraw the present Bill, and to lay on the
table of the House an amended Bill, if that would be for
the convenience of Members.

LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL
In answer to Mr. S. CRAWFORD,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that ho could not u 1

present state when the second reading of this
Bill would be gone on with. On Monday
there was the Australian Colonies Bill ; on
Thursday next the Stamp Duties Bill, and in the en-
suing week he meant to take the Ecclesiastical Commi -
sion and the Committee of Supply.
LOSS OF THE ROYAL ADELAIDE.
In answer to a question from Mr. F. FRENCH,
Mr LABOUCHERE said that he had no reason for
saying that the Royal Adelaide was anything but a well-
built ship—he did not think that the accident was owit g
to any want of skill in the captain.
AUSTRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT
BILL.
The House then went into Committee on this Bill,
Clauses 3,4, and 5 were agreed to without discuelien.
On clause 6 being pibposed,
Sir WILLIAM INIOLESWORTH moved, in line 26,
to omit all the w orda after the word " That," down to
the word and,"
in line 39, for the purpose of inserting
"
these words, " there shall be established in the colonies
of Van Dlemen's Land and South Australia respec-
tively a Legislative Council and a House of Assembly."
If this amendment were agreed to he should proceed to
propose other amendments by which these two chambeis
would be made elective. It was admitted that the form
of government at present existing in the colonies ought
to be changed, while it was equally as true that the form
he proposed was the best in theory; but the Govern
meet had urged certain special reasons why it could not be
applied to Victoria and New South Wales, and he should,
therefore, confine himself to a consideration of those
specially. It was said that the colonists were quite satis-
fied with one chamber, and it would, therefore, be an
arbitrary and unjust proceeding to force two upon them.
Now, in the case of the two colonies mentioned
in this amendment, that objection did not
apply, for the colonists themselves were favour-
able to the principle of two chambers.
Within the last few days most important information
had arrived in this country, iu a letter from Sir William
Denison, the Governor of Van Diemen's Land. In that
dispatch Sir William Denison ee4ressed his decided con-
demnation of that part of the Government Bill which
they were now discussing. With regard to the principle
of a second chamber, Sir W. Denison said ho doubted
very much whethe r the evidence in possession of the Go-
vernment was sufficient to prove that the leople of New
South Walt s were willing to adopt such a change in the
form of their existing government.—(llear, hear.)
Iho Reuse had no evidence that the people of New
South Wales wi,heel to alter their instituti, ne in thatfar-
tieular. Sir W. Denison also said he would submit that
the welfare of three colonies now about to be called into
political existence mte,t be allowed to outweigh the
indifference of the inhabitants of New South Wales.
Could anything be more unwise than to start those
three colonies with bad institutions simply because New
South Wales was indifferent to reform in the change of
its government? Sir W. Denison was of opinion that a
body constituted like the proposed single chamber,
finding itself in possession of power, it was not at
all probable that they would originate or carry out
changes which would in died diminish its power.
The Hen. Gentleman then proceeded to read a letter
I from Oh. LT. Yeueg, the Governor of E3outh Australia,

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which he argued proved that S'r Henry Y '._ ‘;'\_>,l/4-'----qz,.. e,
and indeed all the colonists of South' A' -. , - r-,„, _..,..' ' . ''l,l
Ott4v j )
tralia, were opposed to tl e Government i -.2--.../-
Ho must remind the Cercmitte e that Wilt Vf s
,enter_.
, • 4174..
Bill had teen postponed from last session, in order
to give time for information to reach this country, and
now the Bill ought not to be proceeded without the most
valid reasons being shown for the assent of the coloni:ts.
If there were any grounds for believing that tl ey
did assent they had been studiously concealed
The working of a single chamber bad been tried in New
South Wales for seven years, and be did not think with
much success. The system of New South Wales was in
direct violation of one of the fundamental principles of
the constitution, which declared that none could be taxel
without the consent of the majority of their representa•
times. The amount ef expenditure per head on the popula-
tion of our colonies depended entirely on the form of
their local Governments, and the expenditure was
greater or less precisely rs the Colonial-. ffice had more
or less to do with them. It was greater when the Col -
nial-office had more, and less when it had least to do with
the government of the coluni,v. The average rate per
head, when the Colonial-of, e exercised its powers to ap-
point nomirecss, was 202. higher than when the colonists
possessed representative institutions in which 11 e bad
no nominee.. It was said by the Government, that as
the principle of appointing nominees had been sealed
with regard to New South Wales it ought to be
considered as settled e ith respect to all the
Australian colonies, so closely were they comp ete d
together. But there appeared to be great
misapprehension en this subject, and ho sup-
posed that many in tl as House thought the Austra-
lian colonies were as closely connected together as the
counties of England. That, however, was not theta's..
Adelaide, the capital of South Australia, was 600 miles
from Sydney, and the capital of Western Australia
was distant 1,700 miles from Sydney, or further
than Constantinople was distant from London.
Such an argument, therefore, was utterly absurd
on the present occasion. One of the arguments most
relied upon in favour of the Bill was that it contained
a provision which allowed the colonies, from time
to time, to amend their institutions and . the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government had ex-
pressed his surprise that any on his side of the House
should oppose a Bill which was the very embodiment of
liberal principles. More stress had, however, been !ail
upon this argument than the circumstances justified.
This provision would only add to instead of diminishing
the despotic power of the Colonial-office, and he need
not point to its recent blunders in Ceylon, New South
Wales, and New Zealand, to prove that it was unworthy
of these additional powers. Another argument against
this theory used by Hon. Members who opposed it was
that the colonies themselves were nufit to receive
the double chamber, and he called upon those
Hon. Members to prove it. Was it in smallness:of the
population, or in their ignorancs, that they deserved this
unfitness? If it were in the former, he would just point
to the example of America, were the principle prevailed
in many states whose population, at its origin, amounted
to scarcely a third of that of these colonies, and the re-
sult had been to add to the influence of the American
Republic, and to increase the number of its 'inhabitants.
He would ask the Committee why they refused to give to
the Australian colonies the same political institutions which
experience and theory had proved to be suitable to Anglo-
Saxon communities located in the back woods of North
America? When an English subject set foot in our
American colonies he lost no political immunity which
ho enjoyed in the mother country; but when he
entered any of our Australian colonies he relinquished
many of the liberties and privileges, the enjoyment of
which was guaranteed to him in the land of his birth. The
Noble Lord (J. Russell) proposed a chamber consisting
of 24 members, 16 of which should be elected by the
people in the colony, and eight of them should
be nominated by the Colonial-office, who should sit in
the same chamber. He would ask, was it likely that
the Colonial-office could select out of the materials ex-
isting in those colonies eight Members who would be
better fitted to sit in the Legislature than than those who
had been elected by the people in the colonies?
He (Sir W. Molesworth) thought they would find the
greatest difficulty in that. With these observations he
would leave his amendments in the hands of the House.

Mr. E. DENISON said he had hitherto supported the
Government measure contrary to his own and the gene-
ral prepossessions of the House in favour of two cham-
bers, having waived his own judgment in the belief that
the reasons adduced by the Government in favour of
their scheme rendered it an exceptional case. Those
reasons were that it was unfair to interfere with the form
of institutions with which the colony itself, referring to
New South Wales, was satisfied, and that the House did
not possess sufficient information to guide it in the course
of policy they ought to adopt if they departed from the
existing form. Since that there had been several no-
tices given on the subject of the federative principle, but
in the papers which had been laid before the ouse
Lord Grey had stated that the federative principle would
be inoperative, and for the present time must be put out
of consideration. The management of the waste lands,
however, was to be vested in an assembly constituted on
the federative principle. Was it intended, then, that no
.coon should take place on the subject of the waste
lands, a question on which the colonists felt the deepest
interest, but respecting which under this Bill there was
nothing to be done whatever. The Honourable Gentle-
man who had last spoken had called attention to the
dispatches received from the colonies on the subject, but
ho could not have seen the dispatch which had been
placed in the hands of Ilov. Members that morning,
or he would have referred to it, for it was infinitely
more favourable to his purpose than all that had yet ap-
peared before the House on the subject,. It must have
been an accir'eutal omission on his part, and it was to
supply that accidental omission that ho (Mr. Darison)
r, se. They hal, then, not only a dispatch of Sir 11.
Young, but also a body t f resolutions passed by the
Legislative Council of Synth Australia on Saturday, tho
lath ef December, 1849. Those resolutions deelarr d
tha-, the Legislicure should consist
.c,f a Governor and
two chambers, the upper cf aisber c ,mposed rf
hers nominated by the Crown, and for life. Th. Gover-
nor in his dispatch qualified those resolutions, and stated
that ho did not concur in their recommendation of al -
pointment by the Crown for lice and he proposed
another plan. But the important point for the !louse
to consider was, that the South Austral au Legislative
Council had pronounced in favour of too chambers.
The Noble Lord told them it was of importance to c, 1.-
sides the sentiments of the colonists in the matter.
Here, then, on the question of two chambers, they bad
got the opinions of the three Governors presiding in the
Australian colonies—viz., Sir C. Fitzroy, who was the
Governor of New South Wales, including Victoria; the
Governor of Van Diemen's Land; and next, the Go-
vernor of South Australis, Sir H. Young—all stating
that it would be ex; e heat and an improvement to have
two chamber:. And besides those, they had from the
only one of those colonies from which it had yet come in
an authentic shape a declaration of opinion iu favour of
the two chambers. In addition, they had the opinion of
the Legislative Council of South Australia en the tut -
ject of the management of the waste lands, that no gs-
neral system of regulation would be applicable to all
the Australian provinces, and that the establishment of
a general assembly ou the federative principle was m, st
inexpedient, because of the great dissimilarity of pur-
suits and interests existing in the several provinces. To
proceed further, then, with the present Bill as it now
stoed would be a mere waste of time. Be thought it
impossible, with the information they bad now got, to
force upon the colony of New South Wales a lrgislature
consisting of one chamber. events, would bu et
no party to such an act of injustice,lleatalalnd if ho i:a i but
one Member to support him he would give his most
strenuous opposition to the measure.
Lord J. RUSSELL said if his Hon. riend had at-
tendedtll%)
irchuemhsataa.nee;ileieb
bad
do(uilut
ems,ot boa,:
theo ru acdr%tundo
statement o
that the people of South Australia had come to a resolu-
tion that there ought to be two chambers, and that that
was favourable to the proposition of the lion. Member
for Southwark (Sir W. bloleswortn). Now what had
happened was this. With the exception cf New South
Wales, there was not in any of those colonies any repre-
sentative assembly whatever. Those which now existed
were legislative councils nominated by the Governor;
they were, according to the phraseology of the Hon.
Member for Southwark, the mere nominees of the Colo•
Dial-office. At all Events, however improper that phrase
was, they derived all their authority from the Colonial
Government, under the approval of her Majesty. Such
a legislative council in South Australia had come to cer-
tain resolutions that the Legislature should consist of
the Governor and two Chambers. So far, that approved
of the plan of the Hots. Member for Southwark ;
but proceeding further in those resolutions they

found- that the second chamber should be elective,
with the exception of certain ex officio members—
namely, the Colonial Secretary, the Advocate-Geneial,
the Colonial Treasurer, the Collector of Customs, sbe
Surveyor-General, and the Commissioner of Police, who
were to have seats in the representative chamber, while
the upper chamber was to be composed of members no-
minated by her Majesty for life. Nothing could to more
unlike the proposition of the Hon. Member for South-
wark. The Government proposed one chamber, and
that part of the members should be nominated by the
Crown; but the Colonial Legislative Council
.cprospoosued
la
that there should be two chambers, one of which
be entirely nominated by the Crown for. il!re the
other should consist of representatives Ot 11 People Wad
have a more aristotcfrattihcecognesnteitrua-1
some additional members named by the Crown. But
still it might be said, if that were the opinion of the peo-
ple of South Australia you should not counteract it, that
But thatwo phionohnad opinion h oelfdthae
publiothey only wished to
ion—a House of Lords.
Council represented the opinions
Legis-
lativenpeople Council was
South
hwaAs
ontortalitah,e
meeting, and bad there altogether denied that
The opinion of the colonies had
in favour of one assembly, and all his
oltbh-Ifeoeeunt.hLlee;ceilnubellia:theiYvid done was to show that the Legislative
Council which had been named by the Crown did not
like to give up their authority, but desired to preserve it
all in their own hands. But it was said that the gc-
vermes of the colonies were in favour o two chamfers.
That might be urged on the proper occasion as au argu-
ment in favour e f two chambers; but, so far as the
opinion of the people of the colonies were concernA,
there was nothing at present to alter the stl.te of things.
Mr. ADDERLEY said the Noble Lord must allow
that the question was bc!.ween a single and u d( tilde
chamber, and it showed that the Noble Lord was only
dealing with the surface, and not the main principles of
the question, when he thought that there was a diffe-
rence between the opinions of the Legislative Council
of South Australia, and that of the people, on the
question of a double chamber. It was no matter
whether the colonies spoke out or not, as far as the Go-
vernment was concerned, for whatever opinion they
expressed, Gentlemen in that House were met by the
apocryphal information which the Government had ever
ready in their pockets, as to what the sentiments of the
colonists were. Now, they were told of a largo mooting
in which the colonists had expressed their sentiments