The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-20 00:00:00

held in his hand a paper, moved for by the Right Hon.
Baronet the Meinber for Ripon in 1845, relating to those
burdens, from the year 1813 to 1845. It appeared trona
that paper that the amount levied on real property in
1813, for poor and county-rate, was 8,646,841!., end iu
1849, 7,674.1461., being ft:4out 1,000,001. less in 1849
than in 1813, although the population had increased from
10,448,000 in 1813 to 17,715,000 in 1849. The number
who paid the rate had increased, while the charge had
diminished from 12s. 80. a head to 6s. 6,1 per heal, be-
iug a diminution of nearly a half.—(Hear, hear.) He
came now to another point on which the Hon. Member
touched but lightly, and that was the proportion at
which land was assessed, compared with other kinds
of real property, for the relief of the peer. He had
understood the Honoureble Member to say that the
landed interest were assessed for two-thirds of the amennt.
—(Mr. Disraeli dissented.) Ho begged the Hon.
Member's; pardon. Ho believed he had not adverted to
the subject, and it was therefore the more necessary
that he (Sir G. Grey) should do so.—(A laugh.) On
ref wring to the report of the Poor-law Commissioners
of 1844, he found it stated that the value of rateable pro-
perty had gre•it!y increased aince 1813. In that year it
was assessed to the value of 51,898,4231., but in 1843 it
hal increased to 85:807,731/. So that the gross rate bad
decrease;', although ►he value of real property had
greatly increa'led. He found from subsequent returns
that a progressive increase had taken plae:c in the vahte
of real property down to 1848:
In 1813 the value was 51,893,4231.
184.2 it had increased to 85,000,0001.
1841• ft ft 86,000,0001.

1846 71 tt 89,000,000/.
1843 01000,0x!01.
With regard to the proportion between the value of land
and the value of other real property, be held in his
hand a return which showed the increase of each at dif-
ferent periods. There had been an increase in the value
of landed property, but not to so great en exteut as the
increase that hail taken place in the value of other kinds
of real estate, such as house property and railways. It
appeared therefore that land now paid 45 per ceat., in-
stead of 52, while other descriptions of real property paid
55, instead of 48 percent.—(Hear, hear.) In the report of
the Lords' Cormnitti e of 1346 it was stated thet the
rates had diminished, that property had augtnentei,
and that the rates on the land had been greatly re-
duced. Ho should not now enter upon the Ties-
tion of the reductions affecting real property.
He should only remind the House that in 1846
a sum of nearly 100,000/. had beer transferred from the
local taxation for the purposes cf poor relief to the
Consolidated Fend, and had since then been annually
voted by Parliament. Having anticipated the two ob-
jections referred to, the Hon. Member for Bucks then
claimed for real property an exemption from a large
share of its present local burdens, on the ground that
when they were imposed the protective system existed,
and that it was unjust, now that that system had ceased,
to exact these burdens to the same extent as before.
Bat since the time of Elizabeth there had been various
systems of protection, and ho thought it would puzzle
the Hon. Member to show during the period that has
since elapsed that corresponding advantages were en-
joyed by the land. There were othsr things which had
been snore highly protecee i than bend, end the only
difference between them and real estraie in this respen
was, that land was the lest great branch of industry
which lost its protection; and, therefore, if there were
tiny grounds for the claim, land—rather than other
kinds of industral property which had been deprived of
protection at an earlier period—should bear these bur-
eCOF,—(fienr.) The proposlls of the Hon. Member for
Bucks were embraced in three resolutions. In the first
instance, he proposed that all established charges of the
poor-law should he transferred from the local taxation
—that they should no longer be borne by the property
of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but that they should
be paid out of the Imperiel Tresstiry. The lion. Mem-
ber had estimated these uscat'lished charges at 1,500,000/.
but he believed the stument borne by England did not
eecred. 776,0001.
Mr. DISRAELI—The last ret ern made them 980,000/.
Sir G. GREY—True; but in consequence of an Act
which passed in the subiiequent year there was a reduc-
tion in their amount of 200,0001. The Hon. Member
for Bucks stated that the transfer would not violate any
principle, as these established charges did not stand on
the same ground as the funds necessary for the relief of
the poor. But there would be the greatest extravagance
with respect to many of these charges if they were to
take away the local check which at present existed. He
believed if they were transferred to the Consolidated
Fend it would be impossible to say to what extent these
charges would be increased.--(Hear, hear.) The next
proposition of the Hon. Member was that all other
rates, county rate and police rate excepted, should be
transferred from the local to the general taxation of the
country. The amount of these difihrent rates the lion.
Member estimated at 500,0001., the total amount of
the rates proposed to be so transferred being 2,200,000/.
Looking to some of the items comprehended in the
minor rates, he was not prepared to say that his Right
Honourable Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
when be came to deal with any surplus revenue,
might not cousent to some alteration. At all events, he
was not prepared to ask the House to negative, by anti •
cipation, the transfer of any particular charge, to which
no objection could be made, from the local to thegeneral
taxation of the country. In arguing against the pro-
posals generally, ho did not wish to prejudice any future
discussion as to the transfer of tiny of the smaller
charges, such as that male in 1846 at the suggestion of
the Bight lion. Baronet the Member for Tamworth.
He was not prepared to say, that between those charges
and those enumerated by the Hon. Member for Bucks
any distinction in principle existed which would justify
the House in refusing to make the change. In resisting
the present proposal, the Government wore not to be
precluded from considering and bringing forward any
proposition of the kind to which he had referred. The.
next proposal of the lion. Member was, that the whole
charge for the casual poor should also be transferred to
the Consolidated. Fund. The Hoe. Member had not
even attempted to estimate the expense of the casual poor
of England, Scotland, and Ireland, but proposed to
transfer it at once to the Consolidated Fund.
Mr. D/SR A ELI—Not the expense of the casual poor
of Ireland.—(Laughter.)
Sir G. GREY—There could be nothing more ob-
jectionable than to transfer the relief of the casual poor
to the public treasury. Those who looked to the reports
of the Poor-law Board were aware that there was no end
to the examinations that took place to keep down this
branch of poor-law expenditure; but if the expense was
transferred to the public treasury, there would be an
end to the reductions that had taken place. Ho denied
that anything had ever fallen from his Right Hon.
Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to justify the
lion. Member for Bucks in saying that the sarplue, if
any, for the year would be available for carrying out his
proposition for the relief of the casual poor. But sup-
posing a surplus was available, it would neither be just
nor reasonable, without taking a comprehensive view of
the interests or the country, to anticipate the appropria-
tion of that surplus, or to pledge the House to apply it
to the particular object sought by the lion. Member,
without considering how far it would really relieve the
agricultural interest. Ho hoped the House was not pre-
pared, when the amount of the surplus was yet uncer-
tein—(" Hear" from Colonel Sibthorp)—to make any
appropriation of it. Supposing the RV/is which
the Hen. Member wished to transfer to amount
to 2,200,000/., it was desirable to know to what
extent this relief would benefit the agriculturists of
England. Of that sum only aboat 1,500,0001. was ap-
plicable to England. He could not understand what ad-
vantage would be gained by the agricultural interest by
the taking off their share of the anove taxation when it
was plain they would lose the benefit of any other re-
duction that might be gained by a different application of
the surplus or have to pay their quota of any new tax
that might be found neeessary.—(Hear.) He believed
the actual amount to the agriculturist by the reduction
proposed would not exceed 3d. or 4d. in the pound, and
he did not think they would be very thankful to the
Honourable Member for such an amount of relief. He
did not know that he differed from the Hon. Member
when he said, speaking of the incidence of taxation on
land, that there was a community of intorest between
landowners and occupiers. On that point he would
refer the House to a passage in the report of the Lords'
Committee on the burdens on land. In that report it
was stated that all fixed charges, such as tithes, were to
be considered as a burden on the owner, but that fluc-
tuating charges during the tenant's holding were to
bo considered as charges on the tenant, which
he had an interest in diminishing, his rent being
fixed. The moment, however, the tenant's occupation
ceased, a now bargain was made, and the owner in-
creased his rent in proportion to the diminution of the
charges on the tenant. In that case the landowner got
the benefit in the shape of an increased rent. The
lion. Gentleman had said that his proposals were re-
commended to the House by their justice. But he (Sir
G. Grey) did nut think the Hon. Gentleman had esta
blished that proposition. lie had shown that the charges
in question had been assessed over since the paising of
the 43d of Elizabeth ; and he had also endeavoured to
show that the ground on which the lion. Gentleman
had claimed that concession to the landed interest—
namely, the abolition of tho protective system—was a
ground which would equally apply to other branches of
national industry to which the Hon. Gentleman did not
propose to extend a similar favour. The Hon. Gentle-
man had said that his scheme was a practicable one.
But he (Sir G.. Grey) did not consider that it was prac-
ticable to the extent which the lion. Gentleman pro-
posed, because it would require a lager surplus of re-
venue at • the end of the financial year than
we were likely to have according to any cal-
culation that had yet been made. It would at the
same time operate unjustly to other classes of the
community, inasmuch as it would deprive them of any
benefit which they might derive from a different em-
ployment of whatever surplus revenue might exist. He
thought, also, that it would be unsafe, in many of its
details, inasmuch as it would lead to extravagant expen-
diture by transferring a variety of charges from the
local to the general taxation of the country. The Hon.
Gentleman had laid that proposal before the House as
one only of a series of measures which he wished to in-
troduce; but the House ought to be cautious how it
adopted the first of that series, until the Hon. Gentleman
should have told them what were the measures which
were to follow, and where the money was to come from
which was to give relief to the agricultural classes.
They otielit not to adopt that first proposal until they
knew to what it was to lead, or where the lion. Gentle-
man would invite them to follow. The Hon. Gentlemen
had said—and he (Sir G. Grey) believed truly—that he
was not in the habit of making statements in the House
which he did not make out of it. The Hon. Gentleman
had certainly been very unreserved in his communications
at ;public meetings in the country during the late re-
cess; and they were not altouether in the dark with re-
spect to the next proposal which the Honourable Gen-
tleman would probably rucks. Tie he'd in his hand
what he believed to be a revised and authentic copy of a
speech delivered by' the Honourable Gentleman at the
old baronial hall of Castle Ileadinghatc, iu Essex,