The Sun.
London, England, 1844-03-27 00:00:00

TURNPIKE TOLLS.

Colonel WOOD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
exempt from toll lime conveyed on any turnpike road in
the Principality of Wales. In stating the, nature of the
measure he should not detain the House at any length.
He wished the Bill to stand on its own intrinsic merits.
Every description of manure, excepting lime, was ex-
empted from toll. In some districts the amount of toll
was double the cost price of the lime. It was argued,' in
favour of the toll, that without it many roads could not
be sustaiaed. By Act of Parliament every description
of manure, except lime, was exempted from toll. He
considered that every road was a parish road, and being
such, he considered it ought to be kept up by the parish.
He thought he should be able to show that roads
might be kept up without a toll upon lime.
The Commissioners admitted that in England manure
was exempt from toll, and the reason they gave for such
exemption was, that the great proportion of articles
used as manure were seldom transported to any dis-
tance ;_ that they were most frequently merely taken
from one portion of a farm to the other. If
that was the only reason the Commissioners
could find for this exemption they took a very
short-sighted view of the matter. Lime, the
Commissioners stated, was of a different character ;
it was very valuable, and could be profitably transported
to great distances. Now they had heard a great deal
of guano; that wa.sbrought from a great distance ; and was
♦ery valuable, so was Aberdeen waste, so was coal-dust,
and yet all these were exempt from toll under the pro-
visions of the General Turnpike Act. Lime was the
only manure subject to toll, and lime was the
only manure within the reach of the Welsh farmer.
He entreated the Government to concede the boon of
exemption of lime from toll—a measure which more than
any other would secure the tranquillity of the country.
Colonel POWELL seconded the motion.

Mr. HUME rose for the purpose of opposing the
Bill. He dissented from the principle of allowing
such exemptions at all. They had been made
from time to time in consequence of the House being
composed of agriculturists; such exemptiOns ought not
to exist. Whatever they might exempt was a relief to
the farmer -• whatever was a relief to the farmer
was a benefit to the landlord. lie did
not See why they ehOuld be relieved frow

what other people were obliged to pay. The
turnpikes had been established, and their own Commis-
sioners told them that the money that had been embarked
in them could not be repaid unless the tolls were exacted.
He objected to the Bill, therefore, in both points of view,
but his chief objection was the one of principle. He did
not see why the landlords should enjoy these ex-
emptions.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON supported the Bill.
Mr. Ald. THOMPSON said that the whole system
of local administration in Wales required amend-
ment. Ile had hoped the Government would come forward
with some comprehensive and adequate measure to relieve
those grievances of which the people of Wales
so justly complained. If the Bill proposed by
the Hon. and Gallant Member was to be
the only panacea, he (Colonel Wood) hoped
the House would reject it. For his part, he would op-
pose it to the utmost of his power, unless it was in-
tended to be accompanied by some more extensive mea-
sure on the part of the Government.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir CHARLES MORGAN believed that however
desirable it would be to relieve farmers from the pay-
ment of toll upon lime, yet in several dis-
tricts it would be found impossible to do so
without abandoning the road. The Commission issued
by the Government had had a great effect in calming
the minds of the people ; and as he hoped that some sa-
tisfactory measure would be proposed by the Govern-
ment, founded upon the report of the Commissioners, he
would recommend that a partial measure, such as that
of the Gallant Officer, should not be persisted in.
He was very much afraid that the Bill would go down
to Wales; it would be known that the Gallant Officer
had brought it in, but he was afraid the course the Go-
vernment intended to adopt with respect to it would
not be equally well known. Why, what had the Hon.
Under• Secretary declared? That though the Govern-
ment would consent to the introduction of the Bill, the
Gallant Member must expect no further support from
the Government. If such were the determination of
the Government, he thought the House would do no
good by assenting to the introduction of the Bill. He
thought it would not be right to exempt lime entirely
from toll, but unless something further was stated of
the intentions of the Government on this subject, he
should most certainly feel inclined to oppose the intro-
duction of the Bill.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM was decidedly opposed to
the exemption altogether of the toll upon lime. If,
however, he was asked whether Ministers would sup-
port the Bill in its future stages, he must certainly say
they would not. He, however, thought it would be
hardly just to his Gallant Friend who had proposed the
introduction of the Bill, not to allow it to be introduced
and printed, and sent to the Principality, in order to
know their opinion upon the subject.
Mr. F. T. BARING was of opinion that the statement
of the Right Hon. Gentleman had not justified the course
which the Government proposed to adopt. He admit-
ted that in a common case it might be reasonable to al-
low a Bill to be brought in ; but in what state was the
Principalityof Wales at the present moment ?—(Cheers.)
What unfounded expectations were they not raising of
permitting this Bill to be brought in ?—(Cheers.) They
admitted that the question of these tolls was exciting the
greatest interest in the Principality, yet they permitted&
Bill.to be brought which they themselves (teetered they
would put an end to on the second stage. Now, at all
events, this could not be considered as a wise mode of
dealing with the question.—(Hear, hear.) The report
of the Commissioners was no doubt at present under the
consideration of the Government ; and yet, while it was
still under their consideration, they allowed a Bill to be
brought in relatingto a small portion of that report, and
which went distinctly to reverse the recommendation of
the Commissioners.

Mr. MORRIS would not oppose the introduction of
the Bill ; but although he was willing to support every
measure for the relief of the inhabitants of Wales, he
could not consent to do injustice to a large class of per-
sons. The revenues of the trustees of the roads would
be largely reduced by the abolition of the toll on lime ;
and they were indebted in a considerable sum to the
Exchequer fur money advanced by way of loan. He
trusted that on the second reading the Hon. and Gallant
Member would be prepared to propose some scheme for
granting compensation to those persons, and also that he
would use his best endeavorrs to induce the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to forego the repayment of these loans.
He was glad that, during the course of the debate,
justice had been done to a large class of persons who
had been most unjustly charged with fomenting the
recent disturbances in Wales—he meant the Dissenting
ministers.—(Hear, hear.) Those persons were remark-
able for their peaceable demeanour, and for the respect
which they invariably paid to the laws.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir W. JOLIFFE said that lime was only partially
exempt from toll in England. He knew a part of the
country that suffered materially in consequence of the
toll upon lime. There were three small trusts, in all of
which tolls were levied on lime, and the consequence
was that, although lime was the manure the most easily
procurable by the inhabitants of that district, and the
best suited to the soil, yet they were precluded from
using it. He regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman
had not stated his intention of doing something with
regard to the General Turnpike Act. A large measure
of reform was wanted to remedy these evils. In one
locality with which he was acquainted, the mortgagee
had seized the gates, and collected the tolls to pay the
interest of his money, while the parishes had to main-
tain the roads. There was little traffic there, and con-
sequently those persons who paid for maintaining the
roads had also to pay the tolls. He could assure the
House that, unless these grievances were remedied, the
discontent which hall disturbed England and Wales
would extend to other parts of the country.
Mr. DARBY thought that the grievances complained
of ought to be remedied rather by a General Turnpike
Act than by such a measure as that which the Hon, and
Gallant Member wished to introduce. He knew there
was a great feeling on the lime question; but they ought
not to deal hastily with the question, involving, as it did,
so many important interests.
Mr. G. R. TREVOR said, the greatest difficulty he
had in dealing with this question was the necessity there
existed for improving the roads in that part of the
country in which he resided. A great deal of the in-
terest of the money borrowed for the purpose of im-
proving the roads was paid by the tolls on lime, and
very little of that interest could be paid if the whole toll
on lime were abrogated..He thought it would be better that
his Hon. and Gallant Friend should abstain from bring-
ing in the Bill. He did not believes that this toll upon lime
had anything whatever to do with the commencement of
the struggles in South Wales ; for the gates through
which most lime was carried, and nearest to the lime
districts, were the last attacked. He should not oppose
the bringing in of the Bill, though, as atpresent advised,
he would vote against the second reading.
Lord EBRINGTON said he thought it was a great
grievance, and very unfair to the Welsh people, that the
mail coaches should be exempted from all toll. This ex-
emption very much diminished the funds at•the disposal
of the trust, and made the imposition of other taxes ne-
cessary. 116 should feel it his duty to oppose the bring-
ing in of the Bill. _ _

—After a few words from Mr. VIVIAN, in support of
the Bill,
Mr. SAUNDERS DAVIES said he would support
the introduction of the Bill.
Colonel WOOD said that, in answer to•the Honour-
able Member for Cumberland, he begged leave to say
that Government were in no way connected with the in-
troduction of the present Bill.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the introduction of the Bill ... .
ga
A inst it
MijoiitSr
Leave was accordingly given to bring in the Bill.