The Sun.
London, England, 1850-04-12 00:00:00

BILL.

The House having gone into upon this Bill,
Lord CASTLEREAGH intimated that it was not his
intention to proceed with the amendment of which he
had given notice, increasing the franchise from 10/.
o 121.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, adverting to the proposi-
tion which had been made respecting the equalization
of the numbers of electors in boroughs, that it was
open to many objections. There were two modes in
which it could be carried into effect, and they were as
different in principle as they probably would be in detail.
The one would be by adding many large towns to existing
boroughs, and thus to divide all considerable towns into
borough constituencies. The other would be only to
add towns to very small boroughs, in order to furnish
them with a sufficient number of electors. The proposi-
tion made by the Hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr.
F. French) proceeded on the former of these plans. The
principle appeared to him (Lord J. Russell) to be very ob-
jectionable, and would be very injurious in its operation.
The second plan embraced those cases where, there being
but a small number of electors in particular boroughs, it
was proposed to add adjacent towns and villages to
them, so as to make up the deficiency. Now, although
that certainly would be the safest plan to adopt, he was
afraid it would lead to a considerable conflict of opinion.
and give rise to many general questions of local diffi-
culty. It would, in the first place, be a matter of some
difficulty to decide which were small boroughs, and in
the next to determine what villages should be aided to
them. The proposal, therefore, required much
more consideration at the hands of the Govern-
ment than it had yet been able to afford it,
and the Government thought that under those
circumstances it would be much better to adopt the Bill
as it stood, and leave that question to be considered in a
future session. In disposing of these matters, Honour-
able Gentlemen who had devoted some attention to them
had fallen into error as to the number of parties who
would be entitled under a 101. and an 81. clause, but
from returns which his Right*Honoureble Friend the
Secretary fur Ireland had just telseived-itiras quite clear
that considerable misapprehension prevailed on the sub-
ject. Still he did not dispute that when this Bill I 'lased
the number of electors in certain boroughs would be
greatly reduced, but under all circumstances he felt that
it would be better to leave this question of the division
of boroughs and towns to be disposed of on some future
occasion.

Mr. MONSELL pointed out that when the Bill
passed there would be twenty-seven boroughs in Ireland
with a constituency under 300; while at this time in
England there were only ten boroughs with a constitu-
ency under 300. Port arlington contained a constituency
of 150; but when this Bill passed it would be reduced
to eighty-six, and he put it to the House whether eighty-
six persons ought to possess the right of returning a
Member to that House?

After a few worda from Colonel DUNNE and Mr.
FRENCH,
Lord BERNARD said he would like to know whether
the Noble Lord meant this 8/. clause to be a Long fide
clause or not? lie wanted to know whether the Noble
Lord intended to leave the valuation, as it was at present,
in the hands of the board of guardians?
Clauses 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, and 44, as amended,
were then agreed to.
Oa clause 45, which referred to the appointment of
polling places,

- Mr. A. STAFFORD objected to giving the Lord-
Lieutenant the power of appointing polling placee. He
wanted the English preced.nt to be followed in this case.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that in Englund
the polling places were appointed by representation to
her Majesty, or by an Order in Council.
Mr. A. STAFFORD merely asked for the adoption of
the same principle in respect to Ireland.—(Hear, hear•)
The Hon. Member then suggested the omission of cer-
tain words in the clause, so as to meet the views he
expressed.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Bill did
not give the Lord-Lieutenant the power of altering poll-
ing pltces. It was a power of appointing places for hold-
ing circuit courts for the purposes of registration.
After some observatioas from Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL
and Mr. FREWEN the clause was agreed to; as were also
clauses 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, and 53.
On clause 54 being read,
Mr. G. HAMILTON moved, in line 43, the introduc-
tion of the words:— " And provided also, that the ap-
pearance of the name of any elector—other than those
entitled to register for any county, city, town, or borough
in respect of occupation as rated occupiers of premises
of the value of 81. or upwards—on the list of registered
voters in each ye tr, shall be deemed to be prima fake
evidence of his right to have his name inserted in the re-
gister for the year then next ensuing."
The amendment was agreed to, and the clause was then
added to the Bill.

Clauses 55 and 56 were Linn agreed to.
On clause 57 being rend,
Colonel DUNNE observed that in cases of appeal the
judge was the party who had the right to decide whether
au appeal should be allowed. Now he thought the words
which conferred upon the judge the right of deciding as
to the appeal ought to be s• ruck our. _

The XTTOINEY-GENERAL said the clause was
copied from the English Act.
Sir F. THESIGEIt thought that was a very absurd
reason for supporting the provision.—(Hear, hear.) The
objection of the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman appear& d
to him to be a well-grounded one, and he did not think
the words ought to be allowed to remain io the clause
unless the Right Hon. Gentleman could suggest some
better reason.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was about to add that
it had been found to work satisfactorily.
Sir F. THESIGER must be permitted to doubt if it
could be found to work satisfactorily in Ireland. He had
known many instances in which one revising barrister
had reversed the dee:sion of another, and there would be
a temptation to the judge to refuse an appeal where his
political feelings were concerned. He did not think that
they ought servilely to fullow the provisions of the Eng-
lish Bill.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL defended the clause,
contending that it had been always found satisfactory in
England.
Sir F. THESIGER remarked that there would be no
check upon persons improperly exercising the right of
appeal by aeir being subjected to costs. What was
sought fur was to extend to Ireland the right of appeal
against what might be unjust decisions.
Viscount NAAS was in favour of the amendment.
The assistant barristers in Ireland were appointed for
life, and in England the revising barristers were only ap-
pointed for a special purpose.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL remarked that if that were
the case the assistant barristers in Ireland were in a
much more independent position than the revising bar-
risters in England, and therefore more likely to give a
just decision. As to the question of costs checking
vexatious appeals, it was not to be expected when the
penalty could not amount to more than 203. costs.
Where party objects were to be carried, the right of ap-
peal might be exercised in a very vexatious manner, if it
were subjected to no control. Ho believed that the only
security they could give to Ireland against irrational and
vexatious objections was by retaining the words of the
clause as they now stood.
Mr. NAPIER remarked that the assistant barristers
held office at the will and pleasure of the executive. He
knew of one case where an assistant barrister admitted
a large number of voters, and upon being asked his
reason for so doing, he said he wished to give a liberal
construction to the Act of Parliament, and that he did
not care for the opinions of the judges. In the municipal
franchise the power of appeal was given to both
sides, and yet in not more than ten cases had there
been appeals. The power of appeal was in it-
self, though not exercised, a check upon the
inferior court. As to adopting an English precedent to
a case like this, he said that the law of England did not
apply to them at all—that they were in this Bill laying
down a principle that perhaps would be soon followed in
why England.—(Hear, hear.) As he could see no reason
they should screen the judgment cf an assistant barris-
ter from a superior, he would, if no one else did so,
divide the Committee. _ _

Colonel DUNNE declared that it was his intention to
go to a divivion. He proposed that amendment by asking
this plain question—was the raan who made a decision
to be the judge as to whether it was right or not? He
wished that this, and all other Irish questions, were de-
cided upon their intrinsic merits, and not upon party
considerations.
Mr. G. A. HAMILTON observed, that the only dr-
cision that could he disputed must be one on a point of
law, and he referred to chase 50, to show that it was im-
possible that the right of appeal could be converted into
an instrument of oppression.
Mr. KEOGH declared that be could see no valid
reason for retaining the words of the clause. It was
no valid reason that similar words were to be found in
the English Bill. He was not one who was in favour of
the ea:ension of the discretion of judges as to whether
there should be appeals from their decisions; and he
was the more especially not in favour of that discretion
being vested in the Irish assistant barristerr. They
were a body of men of whom he had no wish to speak
disparagingly, but they were also a body of men from
who. e decisions he would give the right of appeal.
There was one of the members of that body who for
years had acted as an assistant barrister though he Is as
stone blind.—( Laughter.) The great majority of them
had ceased practice ; a few bad been appointed, who
had never held a brief at the bar, and it was very im-
portant t 3 those amongst them who were not dis-
tinguished as good lawyers, that their decisions should
not undergo the revision of a superior court.—(Hear.)
As to the objection of the Hon. Member for Kerry,
(Mr. M. J. O'Connell), that the power of appeal might
be madle the instrument for rejecting wholesale classes
of voters, he referred him to the 53d clause,
by which it would be found that the appeals could
only be points of law, and that the power was
given to the assistant barristers of consolidating all
the appeals.
Mr. M'CULLA,GH remarked that it was strange that -

the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, desiring not to dig-
hart ge the assistant barristers, should yet have stated
,bat one of them had been blind when acting as a judge,
and that others had never held a brief. He believed
there was no body of men who discharged their duties
more to the satisfaction of the public than the assistant
barristers of Ireland.—(Hear.) Now, if they did not
vest the discretion of the right of appeals in them, in,
whom were they to vest it? Was it in the discretion et
a factious person disposed to annoy his neighbours? The
ob)( ctions might be made by the paid agent of a peel
who desired to diminish the number of electors, and by
str.king out the words of the clause they would vest a
di. cretion in him, and not in the assistant barrister, 0
to exercising the right of appeal.
Mr. HERBERT wished to state one fact as to the
exercise of the discretion of the assistant barristers. Lle
had known of numbers being rejected by the assistant
barrister—as many as 30 at a time, that upon appeal to
the going judge of assize were admitted to the register.
He believed that the effect of omitting the words would
be to extend the franchise. He remarked that under the
present Bill the appeal, instead of being to the going
judge of assize, would be an appeal to the Court of Es'
chequer in Dublin.
_ . _ _

Mr. FAGAN stated that the present Bill proposed to
give a double appeal—an appeal on the part of the
claimant as well as the objector. This was a dangerou4
power to give, unless a discretion was invested in the
sistant barrister.

Mr. L. FOX asked if they did not give a discretion to
the assistant barrister who was to determine whstber
there was a point of law or not to be decided?—(Hoar.)
After a few words from Colonel CHATTERTON,
Mr. AGLIONBY remarked that, judging by tie Eng'
lish practice and the English law, he considerei this *
wholesome provision, and unless he eaw some reason for
making the law of Ireland different from the law of
England, he would endeavour to make the law as similar
as possible. As a member "of the profession, he was utr
willing to cast the slightest stigma upon the assistant
barristers of Ireland.

Mr. WALPOLE was indisposed to leave to the judge°,
of any court the power of deciding whether an app
from their judgment should be given. In England the
barristers were appointed by the judges tor the solo
purpose of revising the electoral lists; in Irelsnd the
barristers were appointed by the executive governmeot,
and might be removed by the executive. It was, he,
thought, then exceedingly unadvisable that they should
have an absolute discretion as to whether there was to
be an appeal or not against their decision. There woe
no analogy, in fact, between the laws of the two coup'
tries in this respect; and he hoped, therefore, that the
Attorney-General would not persist in retaining this
words of the clause.

Mr. F. FRENCH supported the amendment.
Mr. SHEIL remarked that, as the law now stood, en
appeal was only given in one case=that was when the
assistant barristers disallowed the vote. There was no
appeal when the vote was allowed. Now a double sr
peal was to be given. There would be no appeal upon
the question of fact, but only upon the questiea of law'
The appeals, then, would not be very numerous. Under
these circumstances, he thought the assistant barrister
should have the power of exercising a discretion.
Mr. KEOGH explained.
Mr. HATCUELL remarked that there Had been
great frauds and immorality as to the question of voters'
That was set at rest by the present Bill, as the party w°
put on the registry by his rating. The questions, don'
that would remain to be disputed were qaestions °t
law. The questions would arise in the same way n,s,
in England, and, therefore, the practice of the tw"
countries was assimilated. The assistant barristers, who
were the permanent judges in the counties, and weal
had a high character to sustain in them, would feel
bound, whenever they saw a reasonable ground, to tell
the opinion of the superior courts upon points of 10'
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were"'
For the amendment ... ... 33
Against it... ... 10.2
Majority against it ... ...-69
The clause was then ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses to 65 inclusive were also agreed to.
Clauses 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, and 71 were agreed to with
some verbal amendments.

On clause 110 being proposed,
Mr. CONOLLY moved its rejection.
The gallery was then cleared for a division. The
numbers were—

For the clause ... ... 125
Against it... ... 42
Majority .. • . —B3
The clauses to the end of the Bill were agreed to, WI
the exception of clause 118, which was struck out.
The postponed clauses were then proceeded with.
On Clause 44 being proposed,
10
Mr. HENLEY thought that some scale should
fixed, and some provision made, for the expenses of cat
rying out the registration.
Colonel SIBTHORP wished to know if these expertstO
were to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund ?
The ATTORNE f-GENERAL replied that tteel
were.

Colonel SIBTHORP said he should divide the C°l3l°
mittee against the clause.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but so divisioa
taking place, the clause was agreed to.
Several other clauses were then agreed to.
Mr. FAGAN then proposed the clause of which b:,
had given notice—namely, That when any lands, °fro
meats, or heriditaments shall be jointly occupied by Ili"„/
persons than one, each of such joint occupiers to
claim to be rated in the same manner as is hereinbei°;o
provided in the case of a sole occupier, and shall 10:0 h
his name inserted in the rate by the guardians ; and
dl
case of their neglect or refusal, shall be deemed to p
rated in respect of such premises in respect to which f
shall have so claimed to be rated; provided always, tvi,f
the net annual value of such premises, when divided ",
the numbtr of such joint occupiers, shall give a net °OOl
nual value of St or upwards for eachuf such persons, v
not otherwise."

After a short discussion the clause was withdrawn' of
Mr. G. A. HA YIILTON then moved the addition
the following clause and form of affidavit:—.. And Ilea
enacted, that it shall be lawful for any person entitho,
to register and vote for any county, city, town, or
rough in virtue of a qualification not requiring °elf
Lion, to verify the same by taking and subscribing of
oath in form schedule D, to this Act annexed,
attio
superior court of record, or before any judge of fs,t,'lo
in Great Britain or Ireland; and the said oath abol„'not
subscribed by one of the judges of the court before viutvbe
the same was taken, and to transmit such affidavit to '
fa
clerk of the peace of the county, city, town, or boronie
in which the qualification may bo situate, on or bef°o
the 24th clay of August in any year; and such afficliiity
(a claim to register having been duly made as bee p 0
before provided) shall be taken to be prima facie erideo
of the right of such person to have his name inserted
the registry or list of voters for such county, city, t°
or borough.

" Schedule D. it 9
" A. 8., of ,in the county, (or in the c
town, or borough) of , Esquire (or as the deseft'ef
tion• may be), do swear that lam entitled to regl9
and vote fur the county (or city, town, or beroug.ll,Ani
the case may be), in virtue of a qualification consisim•
of a freehold (or leasehotd, or as the case mg "-o/
arising out of the lands (or houses or other propeel'
the case may he), of , lying, being, or sitetWato
(naming townland or denomination, and, Øie
barony, and street, if in a city, town, or borough), 0'4,0
clear yearly value of L at the least, over ands
tivi
-all- rents and charges payable out of the same, exceP'ols
only public and Parliamentary taxes, county, or PI of
ceases or rates; and (where the same is ..held by dee or
instrument) that the same arises from a deed or iollihot
ment bearing date the day of 'an
I have not accepted or procured the same moon.- no
.nor-in exchange for a qualification in any other Nu"
city, town, or borough."
ed)
Mr. HATCHELL (the Solicitor-General for Irels 00
opposed the proposed clause, which he considered 10
less, and as calculated 'to give an advantage to one COOO
of voters over another. By the present law sal d
having a bona fide claim to register had his right alloi!he
audit was only those who had not who were denied
franchise.
- Mr. H. HERBERT supported the clause, and 1101)
it would be persevered in. Ist
Mr. NAPIER and Lord BERNARD also spoke in ftsf)
of it.

After a few words from Mr. French, Col. Rawdon. •
Capt. Taylor, Wl°
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL opposed the 01
as not being in accordance with the principle of ghetto,
Mr. WALPOLE expressed a hope that his ip/0
Fr,ead would not divide the Committee on the
the operation of which, if agreed to, he feared ft°
lead to some abuses. bsd

After a few words from Lord Naris, Mr. Prone!),
Mr. Scully,
1,00
Mr. WALPOLE gave as an instance of how the cofe
might work, that a person in England might clairebpjf•
franchise, and no opportunity would be afforded of
log his qualificration.
The clause was then withdrawn. 0%
Colonel CHATTERTON then moved a clause, gis•
the right of voting for cities and boroughs to that „jo
of voters called non-resident freemen, but who are
dent within the bounds of the county.
,„fedt
The CHAIRMAN said the clause couldn't be re,:,011
and he suggested that it should be taken on the Wm'
up of the report. lso
Lord J. RUSSELL said ho would oppose the
whenever it was brought up.
The clause was postponed.
ble
The schedule was agreed to, and ciao the pres-
ta
and the Bill was ordered to be reported.
The House then resumed.
DISTRESSED UNIONS (IRELAND)• dill°
Lord J. RUSSELL moved the second reading "
Distressed Unions (Ireland) Bill.
eh Colonel SIBTHORP complained that the Bill eta to
be read a second time at that late hour (a ge_Asifil; ofe4
twelve), especially as certain returns which he gbei,
for were not yet laid before the House, although el
had come over. He thought it a surreptitious 01° 510
proceeding to smother such important returns; • the
whole of them ought to have been printed belo'fro ye:
motion. He should object to any further grantee'
land from the pockets of the people of this coulltagss.
from any unkind or unchristian motive, but riptes
there were 8,000,0001, already due and unpaid, 1 • obi
the misrule of the Government, who had reduceeuotrie
country to a condition of incapacity. This strl.nr th,
not he the last; it was a low dirty bribe to
by tbe
Irish; but they were too honest to be led away' "ling
bribe. The Noble Lord might set steel traps ana efd not
guns, but he would catch no game: the people wati,so
the
bo humbugged. It was his daty to the countrY„.oo
part of the Noble Lord to furnish the returns be (vv. 1,0
S.) had moved for ; and if he did not do so, is gode
duty not to bring the Bill forward in such a thin
crijoe•
He decidedly objected to the grant, and he hoped
Members on his side of the House would refuse 03:001
tion of the Noble Lord. He should therefore Woe'
the House adjourn. 001814
Mr, FRENCH hoped that the NO* alld

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