The Sun.
London, England, 1850-06-05 00:00:00

•
period of this year the number was 102,000. He could
give his Hon. Friend the entire cost of the poor in Ire-
lend. The six months ending March, 1850, showed
a diminution in the expense, as compared with the cor-
responding period of the previous year, of 319,4461.
There had been also a great diminution in the mortality
in the workhouses. Ho thought the House would act
wisely in not agreeing to the first resolution; and with
regard to that respecting the appointment of vice-guar-
dians, it was only duo to the gentlemen who filled those
appointments, to say that the administration of the poor
under their management was everywhere less expensive
than they had been previous to their management, and
when there was an apparent expense it arose from pro-
viding additional poor-law accommodation, yet this was
the only point upon which the two gentlemen who pre-
, melt(' him relied, and at the present moment there was
not a single vice-guardian in Ireland, nor did he consi-
der their appointment advisable. Then, with respect to
the third resolution, as to the demoralizing effect of the
workhouses, he thought the parties who furnished the
information to the mover and seconder of this resolution
had greatly exaggerated any evils that might exist. He
hoped the House would not consider it necessary to
affirm these resolutions. He thought they ought to al-
low the experiments they were making to take root
before they drew any results from them. They should
allow the present law to solidate itself before they made
any alteration in it. They had every reason to hope
the crisis had passed, and that there was a prospect of
returning prosperity. He hoped, under these circum-
stances, they would not affirm these resolutions.
Colonel DUNNE said that the lion. Member for Ros-
common had said truly, that the Irish poor-law was in-
tended to effect three objects; first, the amelioration
of the poor of Ireland; secondly, that the expenses
of effecting this object should be paid for cut of
the resources of Ireland; and thirdly, that no call
shohld be made upon the resources of this country.
Now in every one of these objects it had failed. The
reople had suffered under it as well as the proprietors.
The proof of this was to be seen in every direction. The
debts of the unions had increased is spite of the best
management. The condition of the people had not im-
proved since the introduction of these poor laws. This
entire fatlure justified his Hoc. Friend the Member for
Roscommon in bringing forward the resolutions he bad.
, The proper means of feeding the people was by employ-
ment.—(Heata hear.) He thought he could lay down a
plan, by which they could employ the pe ,ple, without
•, any dauget. The rates were totally ineneguate for the
out-dcior relief of the poor in Ireland. It they wished to
support the poor on Irish resources, they must allow
Ireland to use her own resources; but in no one instance
was that done. He should vote for all the resolutions of
his Hon. Friend the Member for Roscommon. The first
was necessary for tee salvation of Ireland. The resolu-
tions of the Hon. Member were not founded upon any
p coliar notions which he might entertain respecting this
poor-law. He hoped the Irish Members would support
these resolutions.—(ilear, hear.) Irish poverty should
be supported by Irith reroureet. They mutt expend the
. produce of Lath industry upon the amelioration of the
condition or the people.
Mr. SUARHs4jN CRAWFORD said that the first
resolution called upon them to return to the law of
, 1833. Any law that prohibited out-door rt lief was ab-
. surd end impracticable. They could I:107, therefore, re-
turn to the original poor law. He agreed that out-door
relief should be strictly regulated. They should give
the people security for the rewards of labour. - They
should regulate the law of landlord sad tenant. The
people thetewould have an interest in obtaining employ-
/ mean anti, engaged in indutotial occupations, they would
find happiaeen It was impassible ho could support
these resolutions.
Mr. POULETT SCROPE said the question was,
• how could the poor be most effectually relieved—
whether only in the workhouse, or by a combination of
• in-door and out-door relief? Now, hew did the law
which .prohibited out-door relief work? Men the
people died by hundreds and thousands from famine.
Under circumstances of pressure it was impossible to
withhold out-door rrlief altogether.—(Hear, hear.)
Well, then, the question came—could they withhold
out-door relief under ordinary circumstances? Ile could
name several unions iu which the poor had been starved.
In one union they had been fed on turnips for weeks.
Dr. itentlyne, in a report to the guardians of the union
of Casilebar, dated the 13th May, 1850, stated that in
the workhouse, which was calculated to contain
840 persons, no less than 1.428 persons were
resident, many of whom we e dying of dysen-
tery. In one of the wards no lens than 138
persons were placed, allowing not more than two
square feet to each person. And what seas the result
of Dr. Ronaync's . report to the board of guardians?
They passed a resolution not to place his report on the
minutes, and soother in which they reduced his salary
from 1001. to 701. for doing his duty.—(Hear, hear.) Ile
mentioned that as an instance of the manner in which
the board of guardians carried out the law; and he con-
tended that the Right Hon. Gsntleman failed in his
duty, as a member of the Poor-law Commission, in not
suspending such guardians. That being the condition
of the workhouses, he would now inquire whether the re-
lief afforded was sufficient. The law provided that the
due relief should be afforded to all classes of the poor,
end especially the infirm poor. But such relief was not
given. It would be far better to confine the relief given
to the iu-door poor inclusively, than to afford such out-
, door relief as was given in many instances. Out-door
relief had been given chit fly to the infirm poor. And in
what shape? It had been confined to food alone. And
• of what did that consist? At the utmost, in many cases,
of one pound of meal per day, without any allowance
for shelter, clothing. fuel, or cooking. And what lead
• been the consequence? Why, that many who had been
en the receipt of such relief for a your or two had,
. through the inclemency of the weather, and the want
of attention, died of starvetion.—(Hear' hear.) And
for these he contended the Poor-law Commissioners
were responsible.—(Hear, hear.) The poor-law was
intended to provide sufficient relief, end . also to
he applied in such a manner as to improve the re-
resources of the country. But he contended that it had
been so applied as to injure and detract from the re-
sources of the country—for instance, of adopting • the
sell-supporting system, and of introducing employment
among the able-bodied; they had acted upon the elee-
mosynary system of fteding the people, without enabling
them to support themselves. If a correct system had
been acted upon, more than half those who were now re-
ceiving relief wouli hare been able to support themselves,
and the infirm poor would have been a much less burden
upon the country. In the year 1830 he stated—" The
curse of Ireland is a general want of employment for
its inhabitants, and any poor-law that provides relief
without finding productive work will be not only useless,
but ruinously injurious to the country." And this asser-
tion had - been fully proved by the factt. Deaths were
now occurring in great numbers in some of the anions,
from the insufficiency of the relief afforded. In proof of
this assertion he referred to a letter written by a
Catholic priest in the Ennistimon Union, in
the county of Clare, in which union inquests had been
held, and verdicts returned of " Death by starvation."
The writer of the letter stated that in consequence of
being refused relief thousands of persons had been com-
pelled to subsist on weeds, a specimen of which he begged
to hand to the Right Hon. Gentleman—(the Lieu. Mem-
ber having handed the specimen to the Secretary fortlree
land)s—saiti that that was the rehetahle accon he believed
it was called wild mustard, which had formed the miser-
able food of these people. lie had received similar stare-
meats from other quarters. Although he thought that
the poor-law had been unwisely administered, and
though relief hurl, been refused is so many cases, and
had been iasuflicient in others, yet he could not agree to
the resolutions of his Hon. Friend, for that would be to
go Lack to the time when there was no poor-davv.—(No,
tat.) At all events, it would be ts go back to the time
when the poor-law was altogether insufficient for the re-
lief oil the poor. Unless out-of-door relief was to be
given when the in-door accommodation was insufficient,
they would have only the shadow of a poor-law.
Sir L. O'BRIEN said that the Hon. Member had
given them a very fair specimen of the stories that were
every day told of, the working of the pool-law in Ire-
land, but which were altogether misrepresentations.
The Hen,
Member bad talked of 136 persons being
crowded into aspace of only two feet square for each
person, Supposing
that the Hon. Member meant cubic
tans, he would ask the louse if. it . was possible for any
one to ibelieve such tic ?-i
statemente assertion?—(gear.) r.)
of
tThehe nOn
Member had also referrearteortuti°h
gof
that
or
medi-
cal officer of
He thought • that
gentleman, , knoownien
Such,things were going on,
ought to have gone to the board a
;4eguardians, er, as he
had the power, attended to the
was misrepresentations such as the:eat3
e
thats fme as et
el fd
Ihlet
beneficial working out of the poor-1 tr, and inflicted
ht
hardship on the poor themselves.—(Hear), At rre
the system was entailing ruin. on all
classes. He slad
seen well-dressed persons come for• relief, and he
believed that others had actually hired
rag,
wherewith to clothe themselves, that they,. might ife
thought fit subjects for relief.—(Hear, hear.) There
were unions in Ireland, in which the rates and taxes
amounted to 21s. 6d. in the pound. In the union, of
lientuck a farm of the value of N.. an acre was taxed
255. an acre.—(Hear, hear.) How was it possible fir
studs a state of things to go on? If the Hon: Member
for Stroud would turn his thoughts to the actual value
working of the poor-law he might produce some benefit,
but no advantage could result from his attempts, day by
ti
day, to set one class of the people of eland against
another. •
Mr. O'FLAHERTY agreed to a certain extent in the
resolutions, but he thought that there were CaSOS where
out-door relief she 44t1 be gagged, and be could not con-
M to its abolitittan • .
'he
Ho
geeus thee divideB,, Wheit there appeafei—
.or tesoladous - - •••
Against ... * • 93
. •
MIRO G A IVanxious 2 5
• oQuirr\opc.
The name of Air. Getenhtteg ' s
C -
faille% which was to consist of hi
177 -
Mr. HAMILTON _gave notaoe• .rs•to tum
that the name of Mr. P. Wood t shoold move
be444ed.
RAILWAYS ABANDONMENT BILL.
On the report being brought up,-
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL •
RrepoSed to add two
elan: es to this Bill, which would haye the effect of ex-
tending the winding-up provisions have,
Scotland
The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman sail he pro
as d •
P .to have
the Eli printed with the amendmente. _
"Mr. LOCKE said he hoped the:Bill would not be p
ierwat dat that hour, as the Bill contained
sevetraeels"
is
portant clauses to which he should Feel it to be his t"
duty
to ride objections.
Mr. SCULLY hoped the deba',. would.not 'be 'su iered
to vo on.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said ho did not intend"
to take the discussion then. He would have the'M B'
aid acne edme:its pc_irGekt.to,., t.
ether, .• the purpose cif the
whole 1.1/63oUre hemg mgy thicudz,
when tbey_liJr/.ld, be considered at the third reaMtk. _
Mr. LOCKE! said,' so !On ' • g a 3 no prejucace was sus-
tained by lien. Members who had amendments to move,
be bad no objection to this course.