The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

was a successful plaintiff, he was a loser to the amount
of 301., the costa having amounted to 1801.; and, in ad-
dition to that, the cost of an interpleader, which was 30/.
more, reinced him to the condition of an insolvent Was
it, desirable that he should be told to surrender 12/. of
his debt because the county court had only jurisdiction
in cases of 201.? The next case was that of a suceesful
defendant, the question being whether the plaintiff had
or had not sold to him a certain quantity of chemical
prerarations. lle was ii succesful defendant to the amount
of 50/., but his costs amounted to 80/., and the plaintiff
told him that the law-suit had cost him 300/.
—(heir, hear.) The last ease he should men-
tion was one in which the plaintiff, although he re-
covered the full amount he claimed, lost 591. I Is. 2d.
The only real objection that could be made to his pro-
position was, why should they stop at 501.—why not at
once make the sum unlimited? So fsr as he was concerned
he should be at once prepared to assent to that, but he
believed there must be some arbitrary limit. His reason
for proposing a limit of 501. was, that he should thereby
get the support of many Hon. Members who would not
otherwise support him. He appealed to the House to
ask any respectable solicitor whether he would advise
his client to go into one of the superior courts of law to
recover 50/. He believed nothing was of more frequent
occurrence at present than to have the amount of the
claim reduced so as to bring it within the jurisdiction of
the county court. The Hon. Gentleman referred to
the remarks of a morning paper on the subject of the
local courts in India in corroboration of his views, and
also to the observations made by the Attorney. General
in the course of the last session, when he (Mr. Fitzroy)
proposed a similar measure to the present. The objee•
lion then taken was, that there should be an appeal.
He begged to say that the present Bill did contain
classes for the purpose of giving an appeal.—(Hear.)
With regard to the objections urged by Sir G. Grey on
a previous occasion, he would remind the Right Hon.
Baronet that it was not so much speedy justice which
these courts secured, as it was the affording the poor but
honest defendant an opportunity of paying the debt by
instalments. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving
for leave to bring in his Bill.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, as it seemed to
be the wish of the House to receive the Bill of the Hon.
Gentleman, he should not interpose any objection to its
introduction.—(Hear, hear.) He felt it his duty, how-
ever, although he believed he was taking an unpopular
course, to point out the objections he entertained to the
principle of the Hon. Gentleman's measure. The cases
referred to by the Hon. Gentleman of sums of 32/. and
421, would be equally applicable to sums of MI. and 52/.,
and it might to-morrow be urged as a hardship that
these also could not be recovered in the county courts.—
(Hear.) The sum of 20/. had been fixed upon after very
long and earnest consideration, and there were the
strongest possible reasons for fixing the maximum at that
sum; 201. had been laid down by the judges of the superior
courts as the sum fur which a man could not be arrested—

that was fixed as the sum which was unworthy theex-
penses of litigation. The measure, as it at present stood,
had been in operation two or three years, and had given,
he believed, very general satisfaction. What effect the
extension of the jurisdiction might have in enabling
parties to obtain an extension of credit, by the facilities
of recovering it would hold out, remained to be seen.
At present the county courts were little more than an
experiment, and he urged the House not to interfere
with them unnecessarily. If an appeal was given in the
higher courts, he apprehended the law woald not work
satisfactorily. Again, there was the right of examining
the plaintiff and defendant on their oaths—that might
work very well with regard to small amounts, but in
larger sums he feared it would be too much for the
honesty of the parties. If an appeal was once given in
, all cases above 201. they would destroy their efficacy,
and they would dissatisfy the large body of suitors
who came before that 'court to recover smaller sums,
by showing that there was a different law for the poor
and the rich. It would, in his opinion, shake
the confidence of the public, and violate the principle
on which they were established. In his posi-
tion ho could have no personal feeling or interest in the
matter. At the same time he did not mean to object to
the introduction of the Bill; but he could not pledge
himself to give it his sanction at any future stage. He
thought the principle the Hon. Member wanted to intro-
duce was a most dangerous one, and unless they heard
some better arguments than had been urged by the Hon.
Gentleman that night he hoped the House would not be
induced to adopt the Bill.
Sir G. PECHELL said, originally no one Was so
strenuous an advocate of the measure as the Hon. and
Learned Member for Chester. When he had introduced
a measure for the purpose of extending the jurisdiction
of the Sheriff's Court to 501.; the present Lord Chan-
cellor had supported him, and Baron Rolfe had assisted
him in introducing it. The fact of many parties aban•
doning a portion of their claims in order to bring the
debt within the jurisdiction of these county courts was
the best proof' of the estimation in which they were
held, and the popularity they enjoyed. He hoped the
Hon. Member would be successful in carrying his
measure.

Mr. CLAY supported the Bill. The Hon. Gentleman
had not stated whether he was to extend the appeal ts) all
debts, or to those only above 201. He did not think
the additional burden thrown upon the superior courts
by these appeals would be of so much consequence a
that great weight of business that world be taken elf
these courts by the transference of business to the county
courts.

Mr. HENLEY regretted to find that the Hon. and
Learned Attorney• General had given his sanction to the
introduction of the Bill. It would be only consuming
another night in discussing its principle, if the Govern-
ment was prepared to throw it out at a fature stage. It
was admitted on all hands that these courts ha l worked
extremely well, and so sure as the sun was in the hea-
♦ens, if they extended their jurisdiction they would de-
stroy their utility. It was on that ground that he opposed
the measure. He wished to know whether Hon. Mem-
bers who were disposed to do away with imprisonment
fir debt for all sums under 201. were disposed to extend
it to 501., or to all sums? If they did so where were
they to stop? He regretted, under these circcmstances,
that if the Government had a strong objection to the
Bill they had not at once thrown it out.
Sir G. GREY had great doubts as to the expediency
of extending the jurisdiction of those courts. He had

last year stated the grounds on which he objected to ex-
tending the sum from 20/. to 501.
Mr. FITZROY—That Bill was without an appeal.
Sir G. GREY admitted that there was that differ-
ence, and it was impossible also to deny that there was
a strong feeling in the country in favour of the exten-
sion of the jurisdiction.—(Hear, hear.) The difficulties,
however, that beset the question would be best seen when
they had the Bill before them, complicated as it was by
the proposition for an appeal and the admission of a bar,
and the other attendant circumstances of ordinary courts
of law. The principle of these courts was only com-
patible with the a ',indication of small stakes. He should
be curious to see what was the extent of the appeal
which the Hon. Member proposed to give. If the appeal
was to go to the superior courts, the whole value of
these jurisdictions would cease. He entertained grave
doubts as to the policy of disturbing the present arrange-
ment, because he believed that any step of the kind they
t iolt would utterly destroy the value and utility of that
system of jurisdiction.
Lord I). STUART was glad the Government did
not intend to oppose the Bill, and that they were to have
an opportunity of discussing its principle more at length.
lie hoped that in a future stage it might find more fa-
vour in their eyes. He considered it exceedingly de-
sirable that the jurisdiction of these courts should be ex-
tended. Ile found, by returns that had been laid before
the House, that the proportion of cays under 20/. and
between 201. and 50/, tried in the superior courts of
London and Middlesex, was extremely small, and that
was a strong argument in favour of the extension of the
jurisdiction. He regretted the Government had not
taken up the question. But if his Hon. Friend did not
succeed he hoped he would move for a Committee of
inquiry into the whole of the subject, which was one
deserving the serious attention of the House.
Mr. H. BERKELEY took very much the view of the
Attorney-General with regard to the effect of the pro-
posed measure. He feared that the extension of the ju-
risdiction of these courts would materially affect their
utility and value. It was very doubtful whether it would
be possible to admit the bar to such a court without first
altering the nataro of the judges. He trusted that the
Government would not yield an inch from the position
taken up by the Attorney-General.
Mr. MULLINGS, as a retired practical lawyer, would
give his cordial support in favour of bringing in the Bill.
Ho did not, however, agree with the lion. Mover, that
all the great expenses incidental to the superior courts
went into the pockets of the attorneys. The pleadings
alone were enormous to bring the case to an issue. The
parties went down to the assizes with all their wit-
nesses, having previously given enormous fees to their
counsel. They were then often obliged to wait for seve-
ral days before the cause could bo tried. For all these
proceedings the attorney did not get one farthing beyond
the money he expended; and at last he, perhaps, had
the pleasure of recovering .50/., after having incurred
an expenditure of 601. or 701., while the unhappy
plaintiff had probably to pay 401. or 501. by the way of
extra costs. He thought that these county courts had
conferred the greatest benefit upon the country, and that
benefit would be considerably increased by extending the
jurisdiction of them to claims of 501. He hoped that the
proposed measure would also go so far as to bring in
equitable matters, which in the ordinary course of things
did not come within the cognisance of a court of law.
He did not think that there would be any difficulty in
allowing appeals, provided tho party so appealing was
required to give security for costs.
Mr. J. WILLIAMS said it was not an uncommon
thing in the trade to which he belonged to sue persons
owing 30/. or 351. in the county courts, the claimants thus
consenting to abandon the excess over 201., in order to
render it recoverable in that way. But the effect of this
was to give encouragement to fraudulent debtors to refuse
payment until they were compelled by these courts, being
thus assured of being able to get rid of their liabilities in
an easy way. Great injustice would be done to all such
claimants if the jurisdiction of these courts was nut
increased.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
BRICKS AND TIMBER DUTIES.
Mr. HUME then rose to move that this House,
taking into consideration the condition of the cottages
of the labourers of this kingdom, and the want of
adequate accommodation for their families, is of opinion
that a drawback should in future be allowed on the
bricks and timber employed in the construction of cot-
tages the rent of which shall be under 41. per annum, as
a means of lessening the expanse of their erection. He
hoped that the same unanimity as had existed in the
discussion upon the previous question would prevail in
the consideration of the present motion. Early in that
session he took en opportunity of reminding the Go-
vernment that if they had any money to spare it might
be applied with great advantage in such a way as to
give elTe..t to such a proposition as the present. Much
to the credit of the House and the country a strong dis-
position was manifested recently to pay attention to the