The Sun.
London, England, 1857-02-10 00:00:00

'PrESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY vilo, 1857.

stated before, the Lords' committee that the colony could
not receive 800 or 1,000 convicts a-year for the next 20
years without the adoption of some means of increasing
the number of female emigrants. Hitherto the colony has
refused to receive female convicts, and not unreasonably,
considering the general character of the female convicts
sent out from this country. The Director of Prisons in
Ireland states that the class of Irish female convicts is
essentially different from the class of English female con-
victs, and that they are not persons of immoral life, using
that term in the ordinary sense. They are not prostitutes
or persons of that kind. That officer also explains the na-
ture of the measures taken under his direction for the
reformation of these women, and certainly the results he
states afford ground for hope and expectation that
many of these women would make very useful settlers
in a convict colony. So in England, at the establishment
lately formed under the charge of Colonel Jebb, to which
female prisoners were draughted from Brixton Prison, the
greatest pains are taken to effect their reformation. I hope
that by some such means the difficulty will to a certain
degree be overcome. The 10th resolution of the Commons'
Committee recommended that the hulks system should be
finally abandoned. For some time past that system has
been in course of abandonment, and the only hulks now
used at Chatham are for invalid prisoners, and means are
being taken for providing a prison on shore to which those
prisoners may be removed When that is effected, the
total abolition 'of the hulk system, which is liable to seri-
ous objection, will take place. There is another resolution
of the committee to which I wish to refer, and the pro-
priety of which I, with all respect, rather doubt. The
10th resolution states—" That every convict on his release
with a ticket-of-leave ought to be reported to the police of
the town or district to which ho is sent," I certainly
should he sorry to call the attention of the police in every
case to these men released with a ticket-of-leave, for that
might have the effect of increasing the difficulty of those
well disposed in obtaining honest employment. With re-
spect to London, the police have reports of the character
and course of life of the men with tickets-of-leave, resid-
ing in their districts under their instructions, which I be-
lieve they honestly act up to. Ido not think any ob-
structions are placed in the way of the ticket-of-leave men
obtaining an honest livelihood. lam aware that a meet-
ing took place a short time ago, over which a noble earl
presided, and at which some ticket-of-leave men made com-
plaints of the conduct of the police, on account of interfer-
ing with their endeavours to obtain honest employment.
Such conduot, if the charge were true, was most unwar-
rantable ; and all I can say is, that if any policeman acted
in the way described he acted contrary to his instructions.
I obtained from the Commissioner of Police the names of
the convicts who made these charges, with the view of in-
vestigating their allegations, and all the constables im-
peached will be punished if those allegations should prove
to be true. (Hear.) With respect to the gratuity payable
to the convicts for some time after their discharge, I have
made arerngements to have it paid by a superintendent of
police, inste td of its being sent by post-efface order to the
jiteaeto_
cbentri vceoiha
ready
result convict
Iyrne
great
oet himself.fdd thebirefer.ffie
difficulty
deliberations
lelt
iys
bbeTaene
rnhlt
aideeetdvi
bopueait
onllrs
importance.
htnlootbeafherutcelte.i areounohnwnhgesaG us
oksnewrvo,l
ee
rhaaonerntn
anchd
eett
it
urnht
Government
pobon introducelnal
embodiestisssu tib ;
the hands of hon. members, they will then perceive more
that the bupilal
clearly the nature of its provisions than they have probably
secondbct
theeeel
anhy arbi
eee
because
toedci
acldugto is
ef
sentences
an
ti wear
nanycbx
eel
desirable
be desirable,fere the
nextif tiWssat
passed
doet hueelvordeenrsnvpyeoentdCiateynt
aet
nho:fi
possible,
assizes.
shall the a
t billp present
eae shouldnbt eiilaobcanege-
citomweeulaldw
this day fortnight for the second reading ; but if business
of more importance should arise I will endeavour to name
a day which shall meet the con •
venience of the house. The
right hon, baronet concluded moving for leave
by to in-
troduce the bill.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that all would agree that the
right hon. baronet had only acted with a clue regard to
public feeling in bringing this important subject before the
house ; and he tendered his thanks for the able manner ill
which the right hon. gentleman had explained the views of
the Government. The right hon. gentleman had alluded
to what he called the exaggerated alarm of the country
with respect to the ticket-of-leave system, but he (Sir J .
Pakington) should Bey that the alarm was rather misdirecto 1
than exaggerated. Considering the state of crime which
had existed in the country during the last few months, it
was but natural that a great feeling of alarm should exist
in the (public mind ; but that alarm should be directed
rather against the state of the law under which the worst
criminals were set at liberty in this country than against
that check of tickets of leave which applied to another class
of offenders. He wished to remind the house that this
subject of wide and extensive interest consisted of two
parts—first, the state of the law with respect to secondary
punishments, and, secondly, what was scarcely less im-
portant, the manner in which that law was to be adminis-
ter ed and carried out. He would advert to a portion of
the subject which he thought had created as much anxiety
in the public mind as the system of tickets of leave—he
meant the impression which existed that, on the part of
the Government, a system had obtained of indiscreetly ad-
vising the Crown with respect to the exercise of the prero-
gative of mercy. In calling attention to some instances of
this kind; he begged to say that he had no intention to
make a personal charge against the right hon. gentleman,
for he was rather alluding to the system and practice long
prevailing than to any improper mode of the right hon.
gentleman's exercise of his high duties. The right hon.
gentleman alluded to the opinions expressed at the late
assizes by some of the judges, and no doubt intended to
refer to a charge of Judge Willes at the Warwick assizes.
Sir G. GREY observed that the learned judge after-
wards explained that those observations were made under
a mistake.
Sir J. PAKINGTON said that it was desirable, however,
that he should allude to another case brought before the
grand jury at Worcester, in which it appeared that a
man sentenced to fifteen months' imprisonment for high-
way robbery (a sentence remarkable for lenity) was, never-
theless, discharged at the end of nine months, on the re-
commendation of the right hon. gentleman. He had had
some correspondence on the subject with the right hon.
gentleman, who communicated the recommendations on
which he acted, and he was bound to say that if any re-
commendations could have justified the exercise of the
prerogative of mercy in that case those recommendations
woul 1 have afforded a justification. They were recoil].
mondations from the most respectable teen, whose bene-
volence had led them to do an act which ho could not ap-
pnre. (Hear.) The impression in the public mind was
that these sentences were not to be carried out. Some
months ago a very respectable woman, who lived in his
neighbourhood, and whose son had been sentenced in Janu-
ary, 1855, to four years' penal servitude, called upon him
(Sir J. Pakington) and placed in his hands several letters
which she had received from her son, and which showed
that he expected to be releasel in the approaching spring
if some respectable gentleman would give a testimonial in
his favour. Writing from Preston Gaol, in which he was
subjected to separate confinement, he said that he was quite
well, and better than he had been for years—(laughter) --
that he had as much good warm fool as he liked and a good
bed to lie one; that lie hid no taskwork to do, and that he
did just as much as he likn,ed—(laughter)—th short,at hhe had nice
clean walks to walk ups and that, in e was en-
joying life as much as any man could possibly desire. And
this, be it remembered, was the most severely penal part of
his sentence. (Sir G. Grey.—" No part of those sentences
is itudergor• in the prison at Preston. There must be
s .me error. Perhaps it is all a myth.") He begged the
right hon. gentleman's pardon. The whole of the fif-
teen letters which had been placed in his hen is were
written upon the printed forms of the gaol. (Sir G.
Gray admitted that he was mistaken
when he inter
rupted the right hon. -
baronet.) The writer of those
letters said that the chaplain of the gaol had told him that
if he would only desire his friends to endeavour to obtain a
testimonial in his
(the prisoner's) favour, he might be re-
leased in the course of this year. Now, as the prison au-
thorities were cegnisant of the contents of every letter
written by the prisoners, it could not be supposed that they
would have permitted the prisoner to be under a misap-
prehension as to the possibility of his release before the
term of his sentence had expired if they believed that no
such possibility existed. [Sir G. Grey— "Prisoners' letters
are sealed, but not corrected by the prison authorities."]
Iu March, 1056, the prisoner was removed from Preston
Gaol to Portland, and he wrote a letter to his mother in
Sept. last, in which he stated that he was well and happy,
that he hadne stout • that ho
plenty of food, and was getti ,
in the shoemakers' shop in which there
had been placed •1:1'
were 30 men, and that they had the privilege of conversi 0
Now, as the right hon. baronet had uo-
with each other. punish-
dertaken the revision of the system of secondary f
e wee to no outlet in he colonies or
menu,, and as ther the utmost
our criminals as heretofore, be
it was surely of
that the public should be distinctly informed
importance lieu of those of trans-
that the penal sentences passed ins h
eadre)
Hd
thato
portation should be rigidly enforcd. (Hear,
(Sir J. Pakington) had over and over again contended
•n no intermediate punishment
it was a great defect havi g
imprisonment and seven yea rs' trans-
between two years'
its • valent, and that the periods of penal
portation, or equivalent,
servitude fixed by the act of 1853 were nothing like
hi ty
equi-
valent for the periods of transportation for w
ac _h t bat
were substituted. He was therefore extremely gl d
his right hon. friend was about to remedy each
ech were defe
want-
, cts of
the latter of which additional proof, if any
su I
called the
ing, was afforded by the letters to which he hat
while
attention of the house. The writer of those letters,
th
undergoing his sentence of penal servitude,
wa%
ested
neighbourhood of his friends—he continue y hadgaci -
that his mother should come and sees im f
them, d was continually
ties for correspondence with
period be should
saying that after a comparatively short
there was ab-
rejoin them. In the case of transportation
I for at least
solute and necessary separation from
fren'nose sentences
saves'. years ; and indeed, as no criminals
wtr —a practice
had expired were brought back to this country—
of
seven
which was very unjust, to the convicts—
aof banishment for
years' transportation operated as one 0
life, for unless the man could himself provide
the
owemeans lie
however,
one never return to this country. There was,
which
be,
one part of the plan of the right hon.
baronet
ortion
regarded with considerable doubt. lie meant- that •n h
er
by which sentences of transportation were to be altogether
tint
done away with, and it was to be a matter servi of uncer y
tudea whe-
,
when a man was to be sentenced to penal _ lie
cher ho would remain in England or be sent abroad,
hoped that the right hon. baronet would reconsider this
portion of the scheme, because what we of all things way
ted
to got rid of was uncertainty. (Hear, hear.) Waarsi_tr
ass-
portation, so far as it was maintained, to be rg. teed
a boon
the severest punishment for the most guilty,
or
as
for the well conducted ? That question seemed to be left
c
open by the explanation of the right hon. baronet. as
tithe
(Sir J. Pakington) hoped that it would be regarded
d fallen
severest punishment, but he inferred from what ha
con_
from the right hon. baronet that, with the object off
ture
salting the feelings of the colonists, he would for the Ilion.
select well-conducted men to be sent abroad. The right I
the un-
bert. (Sir G. Grey) was hardly justified in comparing
with e,
certainty of the old system of transportation
fo.r-
which had recently prevailed. The uncertainty
which
from the
for-
merly existed was merely that of illness. It aroset
abroad.
fact that convicts who were ill or infirm were notion,
to
aseven
It was true that some years ago persons sentence.
steads
years' transportation were sent to the hulks in
hda
abroad, but that had long been discontinued, and It
of trans-
fer many years been understood that a sentence
portation was always carried into effect.
One
statement
(Sir G.
which had been made by the right hon.
gentleman (Sir
Grey) was, in his (Sir J. Pakington's) opinion calculated
sta.on
to mislead the country. The right hon. gentleman t
• s and
that in 1855 there were 77,000 summary convictiiniinn,_,
a.
25,000 convictions for offences of a more serious7,ooodatunt
assize' and sessions ; while in 1856 there were >37'e
ffencts. The
-eery convictions, and only 19,000 for graver 0.
from these
eee which would be drawn by the public
of 6,000 in
infers"- Chat there had been a diminution
rot,
figures was •ve offences. This inference wouldAn
the number of gin • -errect, as he believed the
fa
that
however, be altogether —tinted for by the f t
• -e which came into
diminution was in -t
.elaich would
under the Summaryacle—
Jurisdictions Au-. were
operation in the autumn of
1855, many caviar, ,
previously have been sent to the sessions or 3981Z00
now summarily disposed of by the magistrates. In con.
elusion, the right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakingten) ex- Punlse—
pressed his satisfaction that the attention of Parliament greasing class
had been thus early called to this subject, and his opinion but a punishment,

that all members of that house would be anxious so to v
shape the bill as best to attain the objects which it had
in view. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLLIER said both the Secretary of State and the
right bon. gentleman opposite had placed the question on
its true footing : what were they to do with their dangerous
convicts—with that class of criminals whom their ancestors
disposed of summarily by hanging, whom we had been in
the habit of transporting, bat, inasmuch as public opinion '
was against transportation, we were able to do nothing with.
In considering this question, they must not lose sight of
two things : what they were desirous of doing in the ab-
stract, and what they were capable of doing. In the first
place, the question arose what was to be done with the
worst class of criminals who ought to have been hung but
had not, who ought to have been convicted of murder,
witspwiawnehhuaaaneasbtsrrtutehleeuli,as they had been convicted of manslaughter, because
the juries who tried them had an objection to hanging, or
men who had been convicted over and over again of gross
personal violence and perhaps had escaped by accident. It
seemed to him there was one thing to do with regard to that
class of criminals, and that was permanently to exclude
them from society. They must regard the interest of
society rather than that of the criminal. The public should
Ise protected from violence rather than the criminal should
have a chance of reformation. If, then, it were conceded
that hardened criminals must be excluded from society,
the question next arose—should that be done at home or
abroad ? The right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) thought
it should be abroad. Now, there were two senses in which
they might speak of transportation; in one of which it
was admitted on all hands to have succeede I, but in the
other it was equally admitted to have failed. In the one
sense, transportation meant the conveyance of criminals to
colonies where the free settlers largely preponderated,
where there was a large demand for labour, and where the
colonists were willing to employ convicts. That kind of
transportation obviously required conditions which it was
not always in the power of the Government to supply.
The other kind of transportation contemplated the estab-
lishment of purely penal settlements—such as Norfolk
Island ; and it was that kind of transportation which was
admitted to have signally failed The mother country had
no right to transport, in the first sense, the hardened cri•
urinals of which he was speaking. They had no more right
to turn persons of that class loose in the colonies than they
had at home. Such persons were enemies of the community,
and the Legislature had no right to suffer them to prey on
society anywhere. That being conceded, the only question
that remained was, would you keep criminals of that class
in prisons at home or in prisons abroad—for a purely penal
colony was, to all intents and purposes, a prison abroad ?
He (Mr. Collier) thought that all the arguments were in
favour of keeping our dangerous c. iminals at home. In the
va
ssietebc
impossibletnrei
feaywlflo, l
npairteacchonreswtesec inflict;
ehHi
vi.
imabi
first place, by that course they would save the expense of
sending the man out. In the next, they would have a better
thetri
cut
ee neat ts
surveillance
class of officers at home than they could have abroad. In
s
a :a(
oloei
hetvmatbteinciheetmfrosate- . onapatnopffic:
ifslcitpauscocsl
eicoetenaroenhevpl(wfimafei
ulbcoataetl
ourtunl
ayuldtatdrefe odbotwm 1
neri
atrocitiesaisp nats Dartmoori
life
abocnNnyloee establishmentciudoene t ordli .
acdfieo,
dttnl exercise
oxeaknteNltelrwfsabcaolphbaicowl sointamecudciihaeetrt.
iyanwst
for
wooceetri loorhtuilriyeodknnr
of convicts at home which were wanting abroad. There
might be reclaimed, and there were many other important
might be said that imprisonment for life was too severe a
neces-
sarily imply detention for life within the walls of a gaol.
What he meant by perpetual imprisonment was merely safe
custody. He would not even exclude hope; for ho had no
doubt that it would be found possible after the lapse of time
to allow a prisoner indulgences which would not militate
against his safe detention. On thiepointabundant evidence
had been given before the committee in favour of Dartmoor
rather than of Norfolk Island. Besides he could not suppose
that the people of this country would be so unreasonable as
to cavil at imprisonment for life at home while
they were
t abroad,
perfectly willing to allow i road, where it could not be
carried out under circumstances so favourable to the pri-
soner at home. (Hear, hear.) With regard to less har-
dened offenders a great difficulty arose. This country had
not facilities for transporting them to colonies of the first
kind ; and they could not be imprisoned for life. It bad
indeed been. proposed by the Recorder of Birmingham (Mr.
Hill), and by several other persons, that a criminal should I
be
kept in confinement until he had •
givendistinct evidence
his of
t .reformation ; and that if necessary he should be (le-
arned for life. Now he (Mr. Collier) did not think that
that plan could be carried out ; for who were the parties
to be F • atisfied with respect to the criminal's reformation?
Were they to be the visiting justices ? Was it to be the
chaplain ? Ho (Mr. Collier) did not think the public would
he willing to leave a question of such moment as a man's
liberty
or perpetual confinement in the hands of the chap-
lain ; for he could quite • conceive a chaplain not being
satisfied with a convict's theological sentiments, and °
that ground thinking him unfit to be let loose on on
society,
(Hear.) It seemed to him (Mr. Collier), therefore, that the.
best thing they could do would be to transport' as many
of these less desperate offenders as they could find colonies
willing to receive them ; and to subject the rest to
longer terms of penal servitude—terms which it might
he hoped would break up those criminal cliques and
coteries of which they had formed members. It had
been recommended by Sir Archibald Alison to found
one or two semi-penal colonies to receive this class ; and
to which four or five free settlers should be sent out for
every convict. But such a plan was open to more than one
serious objection. It would be attended with extreme ex-
pense ; and the new colonies would be of such a purely ar-
tificial character that they could never be expected to
flourish. (Hear.) One of the great points of those who
pleaded for transportation at any cost was that transports
seldom or never returned ; but that would not be an advan-
tage which would accrue from the proposed plan. Tho rea-
son why transports bad not hitherto returned to this coun-
try was, they had been absorbed into the free colonial
population ; but if they were sent to mere penal establish-
ments, depend upon it they would find their way back
again to St. Giles's. On the other hand, they might hope
that if they gradually extended to convicts at home the
privilege of freedom, they might learn to use it without
abu-ing it. If they did not, and offended again, why then
they must imprison them for the rest of their lives.
(Cheers.) The right hon. baronet (Sir J. Pakington) ob-
jected to the proposal of the Government, on account of the
uncertainty which would still remain whether a definite
sentence would be carried out. But that uncertainty was
in the nature of things. If they left it (as they ought to
leave it) to the Home-office to select which of the convicts
should be sent abroad, the judge could only sentence the
prisoner before him to penal servitude, and let the govern-
ment say whether the man should or should not pass the
time in a prison at home. (Heir, hear.) He (Mr. Collier)
would not on the present occasion dwell on the important
question whether anything could be done by the govern-
ment for the criminal when his sentence had expired. He
thought not; for he thought that all that must be left to
private individuals. Nor would he do more than allude to
the promise of the right hon. gentleman to bring in a mea-
sure for the reformation of juvenile offenders. He thought
it a wise and sound measure to connect the reforma-
tion of the young with measures of greater severity to
adults, and on the whole he considered the plan of the
right hon. gentleman a very important step towards the
improvement of our criminal administration. (Cheers.)
Sir J. RAMSDEN had had his attention called in a very
painful manner to the subject before the house, for the dis-
trict in which he lived had been alarmed by the perpetra-
tion of many very serious crimes clearly traceable to re-
leased convicts. As far as he could gather the intentions
of the Government from the speech of the right hon. baro-
net (Sir G. Gray), they appeared to have adopted two of
the moat important resolutions of the committee of last
session. The former of those resolutions recommended a
return to transportation so far as it was available as a
means of punishment. The other resolution recommended
that the sentences of penal servitude prescribed by the act
of 1853 should ho lengthened, so as to be identical with the
terms of transportation for which they were substituted.
If he had ever heard of any large and efficacious scheme
for dealing with crime, be might ererhape have felt dissa-
tisfied with the scheme of the right hon. baronet • but so
far as he knew, the problem still remained unsolved. That
transportation possessed many advantages to the country
was now prettily generally admitted • but he thought that
the committee had stated those advantages rather too
strongly when they said that it had both a deterring and
a reformatory effect. So far from- that, all the evidence
went to show that transportation as a punishment was not
dreaded by the criminal classes. No doubt it had groat ter-
rors for the accidental offender, the -man who was still held
by the ties of family ;• but the habitual criminal looked upon
his existence as one of mere exile rather than as a condemna-
tion to penal servitude. Even in 1837, when the severities
of Norfolk Island were at their height, they found Sir G.
Arthur, the governor of Van Diemen 's Land, deploring the
ignorance and insensibility of the criminal classes to trans-
portation, and actually proposing that measures should be
taken by the Government, by the publication of tracts, with
appropriate pictorial illustrations, in order to place
before the eyes of the lowest and least educated classes,
the hardehipsand degradation of convicts when working in
chains. (Cheers.) Again, transportation could hardly be
recommended as a reformatory punishment ; for they had
it in evidence that both in Now South Wales and Van
Diemen's Land the expirees and ticket-of-leave men were
the very worst class of offenders in those colonies. (Hear.)
But, although the purifying effects of transportation on
the criminal had been a little overstated, it would be dif-
ficult indeed to exaggerate the service it did the mother
country, by freeing it from a dangerous pest. At the
same time, he thought the Government had adopted a
sound and wise policy in declaring that convicts should no
longer be forced upon the colonies unwilling to receive
them ; and that resolution, no doubt, much harrowed their
facilities of resorting to transportation. He (Sir J. Rams•
den) was delighted to find that the Government were going
a
steps for promoting the reformation of juve-
nilel so to take
offenders. Every day's experience
protection of society by the reformation
of adult criminals
was almost hopeless, and that it was by
improvement of youthful offenders alone that any real or
abiding good could be effected. (Oheers.)
Mr. ADDERLEY thanked the right hon. gentleman
for having brought forward the subject at so early a period
of the session. He agreed with every word that had fallen
from him, and if anything had disappointed him, it was
that the right hon. gentleman's measure di( _ not go farther.
He hoped the right hon. gentleman would mime up his
mind to abolish tickets of leave altogether. (Cheers.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the proposal of his rigjit
hon. friend had been so favourably received by almost
every speaker, and there had been such a general desire that
the principal discussion should take place on the second
reading of the bill, that hefeel I t
te
did not f
But h 1 • nece sary to tre.
ease for any lengthened time. e could not help ex-
pressing his satisfaction—not his surprise, for he had not
expected
t 1 that it would bo otherwise—that no speaker was
at all disposed to v row this question
fisting.
exclusively as
regarded
r as duished from those of
the interests of this count y,
the colonies. (Hear.) We were bound to take a large
and comprehensive
view of the general interests of the err-
tire Britis • h empire—not to consider merely what might be
convenient
and agreeable to ourselves with regard to our
own home population, but to take into consideration the
story and the present interests and feelings of the
past his
colonies. He had never believed that it would be other-
wise. Accounts had come during the recess that alarm heti
been excited iu some portions of our colonial empire by
particular expressions which had fallen from some hon. mem-
bers last year, and from the crime Which exieted in this corm-
try. But he was perfectly certain that when Parliament met
the colonies would soon discover that there was no desire
on the part of that house to deal with them other than justly
on just y
on such an important question. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly
this question of transportation might he considered in -
re-
ference partly to this country and partly to our colonial
empire. With regard to this country, it could not be dis-
puted that there was the greatest advantage in being able
to resort, in a considerable degree, to a system of traeeper.
Wien for certain classes of criminals. It might be matter
of dispute—it had been matter of great difference of opi-
nion amongst those who had most considered the subject--
how far transportation was or was not a deterring Punish.
meat to our criminal population. He believed that it acted
very unequally. To be sent out of the country was to some
en object, of great terror, and it might be a deterring
' -leak but he believed that there was a large aid in-:
+9 whom transportation would be anything
nontradictory opinions had been given

before the committees by persons well qualified to speak on
the subject. Judges and others were of opinion that tran--1
spurtation wee in a high degree a deterring punishment ;
on the other hand, chaplains and governors of gaols, and
persons who knew the habits of the criminal community,
were strongly of opinion that transportation as a deterring
punishment was fast losing its force. So far beck as 1832,
when Col. Davies's committee sat, there was an intimation
that transportation was beginning to lose its terrors, as de-
terring from crime, aad that something else must be looked
to. Sir W. Molesworth's committee expressed that opinion
much more strongly. Remembering that within the last 20
years no less than half a million of persons had gone as vo-
luntary emigrants to the shores of Australia, he could not
believe that in that class of persons, from whom those emi-
grants had proceeded, there could exist the same dread of
transportation that had existed 20 years ago, when it was
hardly possible, either by persuasion or bribes, to induce
any portion of our agricultural population to leave the coun-
try. Still, it could not he questioned that, as a means of
disposing of a largo class of our criminal population, of res
forming them, and giving them a far more favourable chance
of improvement than they could have at home, trans-
portation, as an adjunct of a system of secondary punish-
ment, was most valuable, and ought, by every means in
our power, so far as was consistent with our duty to our
colonies, to be pres..r /ed. The Government had considere
the question during the recess with all the attention which
its importance deserved, and had come to the conclusion
that, while they continued the system, they could not re-
commend that convicts should be transported to any part
of the British dominions, except that already open to
their reception—the colony of Western Australia. There
had been a great deal of discussion out of doors on the sub-
ject, and members thus approached the question with their
minds far better informed than they would otherwise have
done. The correspondence that had taken place between
men of great knowledge and experience as to the expedi-
ency of transporting convicts to certain places showed that
however, at first sight, those places might appear adapted
to the purpose, there were great objections to them. In
speaking of Western Australia as the only place, he did not
mean that the Government would preclude themselves
from taking advantages of openings that might arise in any
other part of the world. But at that moment they were
not warranted in holding out the prospect that any other
colony would receive convicts. The places recommended
in the Lords' report were Vancouver's Island, the Gulf of
Carpentaria, and Western Australia. The first was placed
very near to California and the United States of America ;
there was a large proportion of Indians on the island itself
end clese to its shores; and considering its immense dis-
tance from this country, and the great expense of transport-
' ing convicts there, it would be most unwise in the Govern-
ment to propose to found a convict establishment there.
With regard to the Gulf of Carpentaria, no doubt the house
would be disposed to maintain inviolate the pledge given
to our Australian colonies—not to inflict convictaupon them
without their free consent, and would maintain that pledge
not only in the letter, but in the spirit. They would not
only net send convicts to the colonies themselves, but not to
any place which would give easy access to those colonies.
From imperfect information we possessed about Ike Gulf of
Carpentaria, he was far from satisfied that the climate was
fitted for a convict settlement—the very last accounts from
that place spoke most unfavourably of the climate. There
was another objection still stronger. The house would not
be disposed to place convicts in any situation where they
could filter towards neighbouring colonies. The sheep-
walks in Moreton Bay were extensive ; already they wore
within 600 miles of Carpentaria; consequently there would
be a probability of the convict population of the latter
place finding their way to the colony of New South Wales,
to which we were pledged not to send them. As to the
Falkland Islands, Capt. Sullivan told the committee of the
House of Lords that they were admirably adapted for a
convict settlement with one drawback—after the convicts
were liberated there was no probability of private em-
ployers taking them into their service to any extent. That
eas absolutely fatal to the Falkland Islands as a convict
settlement ; and he strongly protested against the principle
en which some persons recommended the Falkland Islands
as a convict settlement—that the convicts would somehow
or other filter away, and not be heard of any more. That
might be true of a mere handful, but any considerable
number of convicts would become an absolute pest to the
whole neighbourhood, and the adjacent colonies would not
endure it for a moment. This was evident from what occur-
red at Bermuda. Occasionally convicts were pardoned
there, and hal as good a right to go where they liked as
any member of that house. Some had attempted to go to
the United States ; and the States had immediately passed
the most stringent laws, to the effect that .if a vessel
arrived at any port of the United States with a single
pardoned convict on beard, that vessel should be sub-
ject to the heaviest penalties, should be sent back again,
and not allowed to break bulk. This had actually
taken place in New York. He mentioned this to show
that it was not such an easy thing to establish convict
settlements, and let the convicts go when they were par-
doned, as some persons supposed. The state of feeling in
the world on those subjects were much altered, and the
moans of communication in the world were very much
altered. (Hear, hear.) Even our own colonies had passed
laws to the same effect. The colony of Victoria had passed
a law of a very stringent, and in some respects a very ex-
ceptionable character, which prevented pardoned men
from other colonies from coming to that colony. The
United States had done the same thing with regard to Ber-
muda. If we sent convicts there we must keep them there,
for other places would not have them. In none of the places
mentioned would the government be justified in recom-
mending the establishment of a convict settlement. There
remained Western Australia, at the present moment the
only British settlement open for the reception of convicts,
which we bad never yet been able to use to the degree that
was originally intended, and which the free inhabitants of
the colony were anxious it should be used. It would be a
very mistaken policy to go and incur great expense in other parts of the world, at all events until we had ex-
hausted the means which this colony was willing and able
to afford. It presented some very peculiar advantages as a
place of reception for cenvicts. The soil, though very fer-
tile, was more adapted for sheep pasture than for agricul-
ture. The sheepwalks wore not so extensive there as in
other parts of Australia, and the population were conse-
quently more kept together. This was a great means of
preventing the escape of convicts ; there was hardly an in-
stance of an escape since it had bean a convict colony. It
had also this advantage—a very great one with reference to
the other colonies of Australia. There was hardly any
communication by sea from Western Autealia to the other
colonies. There was very little coasting trade ; the trade
such as it was, was almost entirely with British India anti
with England. There were considerable resources that
might be developed by the convicts sent there ; but, gene-
rally speaking, Western Australia did not furnish much
to the other colonies ; and the navigation was extremely
long and dangerous round the cape at the south-western
corner of Australia. A. very great timber trade was spring
ing up there. The Admiralty had just concluded a con-
tract for timber from Western Australia ; and he trust el
that this trade might induce the investment of capital
there, and be the means of employing men. Still, it was
only to a certain extent, and for a limited time, that they
could look to the introduction of convicts into that colony.
It would require the greatest caution, vigilance, and cir-
cumspection on the part of the Government if Western'
Australia was to continue to receive convicts. It would
be the duty of the Government to do everything in their
power to surmount the difficulties that existed. One of
the principal was the necessity of taking care to keep up
something like an equality between the sexes. His atten-
tion bad been anxiously directed to that subject; he was
in communication with the Emigration Commissioner.(,
and hoped to be able to find a remedy for that which had
hitherto been a serious evil in our convict colonies. One
measure which he had felt it his duty to take, in accord-
ance with the recommendation of the Lords' committee,
was to give facilities to convicts to send for their wives
and children, also to send out destitute young women of
good character to the colony. It would also be necessary
to encourage, as far as they could, the emigration to that
colony of free emigrants, between whom and the convicts
it was of the utmost importance that the due proportion
should be kept up. Under these circrunstaectes they might
hope that the colony would prosper,
llst was indeed far
from being in a decaying condition.
tion was 5,564—a1l free, no convicts hanving libeethnethPeonpsuellait. there. In 1855 the population had doubled: it was 10,630,
and a convict population of 2,175. Iu 1849 the revenue
was 9,5661.; in 1855, 34,451/.
The imports
exports, in 1849, were
28,554/ ; in 1855, 105,350/.
26,150/. ; in 1855, 46,3011. The house
were, in 1849,
that this colony, under judiciou would perceive
Management, might be
the means of relieving us of our convict population for
soine time to come. It had don tless been an expensive
colony ; but all penal colonies were necessarily so; and
the house must make up its mind to that if it wished
transportation to be carrie out with effect. But it
had not been so expensive as
penal colonies in former days. Transportation to this
colony commenced in
1850; since that time 4,194 convicts had been sent
there • and the whole expense of Bending and maintain-
ing them there had been 4U6,001. Looking back to the
settlement of New South Wales, he found that in the first
12 years only 4,564 male convicts were sent out, at an ex-
pense of above a million of money, or more than double the
cost of the convicts sent to Western Australia, which was
not so extravagant as some gentlemen had been led to sup.pose. And if we were to have transportation anywhere, to
any penal settlement, we must make up our minds to
pay'
for it. He must express his satisfaction at the fair
and
candid spirit in which the proposal of the Government had
been met by the house. As far as principles were con-
cerned, there .did not seem to be any great diversity of
sentiment. Above all, he rejoiced, that while members
were anxious to find a remedy for any evils in tl
code of this country, they were not unmindful of
th'eairpepner-1
the British colonies, and were
violatedeter-
mined to do nothing, either in letter or spirit, to
those pledges which they had repeatedly given, notentothinis-
terfere with the expressed wishes of the colonies
subject, not to send convicts to any colony which was not
willing to receive them, and oven not to
place convicts in
any situation where they could give just offence to any
British colony. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BENTINCK did not think the method proposed
subject,
utillbiesewt(hue
the beat way of dealing with the oa
1 d
laboureBta.
blish penal settlements nearer home,
of the convicts.
Mr. M. MILNES congratulated the right hon. baronet
ho had intro-
both on his bill and on his speech, i
doted it ; all ho regretted was, that aewyhhiacild not both been
intro-
made public long since, in e hick case n
much onsense
ehatrshave been prevented. He'
and discomfort miyg
trusted that another ton
elapse before the legislature
pted reformatory measures
wool do not be suffered to
ado
for adult criminals.
Mr. J. (3o PHILLIMORE was oppoaed to the system of
transportation, and quitted Captain Macconochie, to show
that it was wholly ineffectual am a reformatory process ; but
produced vices and crimes that was degrading to humanity.
He objected to giving owe',
the actions of people to the police to watch over
WhoP were not in custody, and against
whom no accusation was made,
of the country. as opposed to the feelings
Mr. NE WDEGATE thought the country had good
ground for the
preen for its exertion in pressing the subject on the public
attention
Mr. LIDDELL
siwy be made f suggested that arrangements might pea-
where labour of oar employing convict 'labour at Demerara,
very superior character could be found,
he where the difficulty of obtaining labour to cultivate
land had exasioned many valuableestates to be thrown.
out of cultivation. Much had been said about the treat-
ment of criminals, but in many places they were treated as
well, or better, than
our soldiers. He admired as much as
any one the benevolence of those men who gave up their
time and means to better the position of criminals—ho re-
spected them for so doing, but he repented the public more,
and lie thought that in many cases misunderstood clemency
and misapplied liberality were fatal not only to the gene-
ral- Welfare, but even to the welfare of the criminal him-
self.

.77

Sir G. G REY replied. In reference to the cases to
which Sir J. Pakington referred, he wished to state that
he had at all times resisted the many applications which Lo •
had been made to him to extend the system of tickets o f LONDON : Printed and Published by MUItDO Y°l7l4°'
leave to those who were condemned to penal servitude. 1 of No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sun Office, so.
tt_ t,
With regard to a case which had been instanced in which I
112, Strand, in the Precinct of the Sy, in
a man sentenced to 15 months' imprisonment had been set of Middlesex, Tuesday, February 10,avo 1667. the co ° '

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