The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-01 00:00:00

the m.o. ,
lete,ed eition of what his Hoe. Friend himself had their bands, for the purpose ef carrying free trade. He
et that of serfs and bondsmen; and therefore sub- had no part in that movement, though he was com-
13;ies. ° that discontent which he conceived at present mitted to gaol, and subsequently tried at
.Lancestedr
th„ His
3etZi atn"ng a large portion cif our tax-raying popu- by a special jury, and after eight days acquitted; an
lion- Friend had very truly said that, if three of the jury, will: were magistrates, and who
entered the box strongly
right to proceed upon the principle of giving the declared that they d
ihouhradvoting to all who were indirectly t,ixed, they prejudiced against hriemm, stated that their pre-
evey m opt universal suffrage; far it was evident that
invited
as en ir yremoved by the result, and
die ember of the community contributed to its in- him to dinner. He would support this
eet ta •
taitted ri°ll,
he still contended fir the Charter; as for
But his HOP. Friend said he ad- motion, though .
r the of that principle would be elan- the Reform Bill, he regarded it as a mockery, a delusion.
und adoption
wish to , would produce results which he should not a snare.
le,t,_ witness; and be was therefore desirous of limit- be elected by the free will of the working classes and all
‘Bsuipplication "so that every man of full age, and ' classes in the country. They. placed their hope on the
too beeteenetto any
.mental or legal disability, who shall transient contentment which arose from the present
It hens tee resident occupier of a house or part of commercial prosperity; but.. the day would come when
have be as a lodger for twelve month., arid shall something more than petitions would be sent to thatle
tire,
_”a duly rated to the poor of that parish for that House t) do justice to the working classes. No.people
ee,s,soatiall be registered an an elector, and he entitled to were more intelligent than the
much
rurrin p
prepared fir
r representative in Parliament." Now, he (Sir tion of this country, who were b
Pontioen said, that even with that qualification, the pro- political change than the population of Paris, or any
been titti Qf his Hon. Friend gave up what had hitherto other city in the world. It was not. he who, ring the
f
heist .invariable condition for the elective franchise— agitation for the Reform Bill, carried about pictures sa
Last Y, the
polies possession of some property or other. The the King with. his
.head downwards, and a bloody axe
usualthe essarily
lint see a his Honourable Friend would enforce would to cut it off with—it was not he who advocated setting
the People's Charter,
imply the possession of any property in I fire to Bristol. He advocated
point of
11% sense of the word. His Hon. Friend did not whole and entire, and never would abandonone p
tor
tees tths.meotion to householders, for he proposed to ex- it.
.He thanked the Hon. Member for Montrose
hoes franchise to lodgers occupying a portion of having brought forward this measure,
. and however thed
e in s„..
-"Y way whatever, and not merely to persons Hon. Member might revileh him in that House, an
Rite , a portion of a house in the mode which would abuse him and his party,
his motion,
stand by that party,
!Odor 'Ott to the elective franchise at present. Any and although he supported
Poor wowh,° might get himself rated to the relief of the always be " The People's Charter, and no surrender."
tegistern'd be entitled to have his name placed on the Mr. P. WOOD remarked on the dexterous manner in
that the without any proof that he had paid his rate; so which the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the
"en, 4_4ner of a house could by means of lodgers
Home Department had answered the speech of his Hon.
so tete,. number of fictitious voters who might have paid
Possess", and who might have given no proof that they Friend the Member for Montrose, for by means of a
hq his Yd " Property. He confessed he did not see cross-examination, he had endeavoured to show that the
ultsti of !'1011• Friend should oppose an unlimited even- object of the motion had some similarity to the People's
mc's, ker:sfranahise, and why he should not go with the Charter. He was singularly fortunate in being followed
;pole -uer for Nottingham (Mr. F. O'Connor) the by the advocate of the People's Charter, who had en.
On. I,7lgth of universal suffrage.—(Hear.) His deavoured to
`B,ooo,s'lend had said that out of a population of
thoet in the United Kindgom there were only Friend.
800 000
he (Q. electors, striking out the double voters. Mr. F. O'CONNOR—Not at all.
teturo G•Grey) found from the latest Parliamentary Mr. P. WOOD—He was, however, prepared for this
)141414,111P°11 that subject, that out of about 4,500,000 by what took place last year. But where was the re-
tst°l. Pr-i-es in England, there were 944,000 electors. His semblance? His Hon. Friend propOsed that every man
'ght of lid said that he was prepared to extend the of full age, and not subject to any mental or legal dis-
ket' how- Toting to ladies• and he (Sir G. Grey) did not ability, who should have been the resident occupier of a
40 tesoshia Hon. Friend could, upon the principle which house or part of a house as a lodger for twelve months,
kttelteo. Ted, refuse it to them. His Hon. Friend had and should have been duly rated to the poor for that
s IC the Refarm Bill in a very different spirit from time, should be registered as an elector. He then went
;Ids es i;*o 7,„e.mher for Bolton (Sir J. Walmsley), who on to shorten the duration of Parliaments to three years,
stafset (au. G. Grey) understood him, appealed to the and made the proportion of representatives. more con-
tP sisonoiY, results of that measure as a reason why sistent with the amount of population and property.sfb
ti‘t e proceed still farther in the policy of progress. What was the motion of the Honours le em er
emit th,.ll*tFriead, on the other hand, had complained for Nottingham ? He called upon the House to
giell 'Ll'ef°tln Act had not attaiced the object for recognise the great principle that labour is
obitshs‘.d been been framed, Now he (Sir G. Grey) the source of all wealth ; that the people are the
„'Prt; uld not believe that there was a growing dis- only legitimate source of power that
.the labourer
s'eteate43ll, be the increase in population and the should be the first to partake of the fruits of hin own
,-,,Petaqo 111 the number of electors under the industry; and that taxation without representation is
e-l/itieelid of the Reform Bill, but he felt tyranny, and should be resisted. He then went on to
*abet that there was a growing increase in the assert that those principles were embodied in the People's
kelailetioaf electors in proportion to the increase of Charter, annual elections, universal suffrage, vote by
et its 11etors,)1' He found from the Parliamentary returns ballot, equal electoral districts, uo property qualification,
hot He
divisions of Lancashire the number of and payment of Members.—(Hear, hear.) Now he sup-
-47,3iti- which in 1833, immediately after the ported the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for
le 4,632 sut the Reform Bill, had amounted Montrose, because it was diametrically opposed to such
i 835,476! ead increased in 1837 to 27,455, and in 1846 propositions—(Hear)—because, instead of being founded
St 4 the clr in other words, that between 1833 and on abstract rights and principles, it dealt with existing
wtittraber had more than doubled. He found that institutions, which it sought to improve by reform.—
saieh . eat Rid-
le. In 1.0. mg of Yorkshire the number of electors, (Hear, bear.) lt would be infinitely more satisfactory to
th 7 to 2r3 had amounted to 18,056, had increased in him, and he felt sure to the House in general, if
.her
that,:l hss ht°76, and in 1846 to 36,165; showing that Majesty'e Government, instead of so frequently telling
e "It doubled, during the same period. He found them what they inot like in the way of reform, would
Nticoo,l'ertiool the number of electors which in 1833 be kind enough tot ell them what they did like. But
ttollti ii,t1164,d to 11,200, had increased in 1837 to 18,818, how their having a Reform Bill for Ireland was a reason
Nina, to 27,046 He found that in Manchester why they should not have one for England was a species
---eer
6, had ,of electors, which in 1833 had amounted to of Parliamentary logic which he could not comprehend.
pe'B4l, Ztnereased in 1837 to 11,185, and in 1846 to He supposed, however, that as in the case of Chancery
efet4hese'-'s°ve these facts showed, at all event', that the reform, the experiment must be first made in Ireland. Not
at
.I°' that class which his Hon. Friend had spoken one of the Right Hon. Baronet's observations had the
ahles Bata treated as serfs and bondsmen had been slightest reference to the motion. But they were
;the sous); their own honest exertions to raise themselves told that they must take into. consideration. the known
tpuleh of society, and to attain to certain rights opinions of the Mover. Now, if the motion were brought
._.ere 11.
114 .1118. TT"' once a stimulus to and a reward of indus- forward by a leader supported by a large party, entirely
tttcOot ~,..°llourable selectivead spoken of those who bound together by some great political principle, he
tee r:,°lBess the franchise in terms could understand that in such a case it required great
eta beileau excited his (Sir G. Grey's) surprise. powers of abstraction to take the motion apart from
tslate dived his Honourable Friend did not wish to those circumstances. But it was very different in tbe
itZeti beputent among the working classes, and he case of a motion like this, which was simple in itself',
taYed that no such discontent at present ex- and although the Hon. Member for Montrose had told
I But If they 431. 44. • were placed in the position in which them candidly that he himself would-go further still, he
-.e riend
teat Lobo had stated discontent among them would et the same time confessed that his supporters were not
hke eaatt: matter of surprise, and would, in fact, be. of the same mind. He had no party pledged to all the
ft, laid th'er of duty.—(gear, hear.) His Hon. Friend definite details of the People's Charter, or any such pro-
hlolnie
_at all those who did not possess the elective position.—(Hear.) How were the tro propositions n-
o.bare serf* and bondsmen—that they had no ceived? •
The motion of his Hon. Friend was supported
ts 7 stet.`eQe benefits of the laws of this country—that by 82 Members of that House, while that of the Hon.
tldshittl :hut t of the pale of the constitution, and that Member for Nottingham found only 13 supporters. Was
Vlati of to pay the taxes voted by a House in the it fair then to impute to those 82 Members the advocacy.
beli,,q,.Gr,wlro Members they had no voice. Now be of the People's Charter, which tbey had repudiated?
tiali;att tbs."' asked if that were true? For his part he Was it sufficient for them to go on year by
.year with a
isytie 14
ntkey shared in the. benefits. of our. laws; Government which contented itself by opposing measures
hi. the other country in which the artisan en- for reform, and bringing in no measures to. remove? those
sei,g, the taunts
protection for life, property, and liberty difficulties which" they admitted to exiet (Hear,
to,sl4e.eritish empire. He should say that these hear.) During the vacation a pleasing rumour was
aostio“titatetZliable blessings conferred by our laws and afloat that the people were to be no longer disappointed
the of the upon all classes of the community, and that of their just hopes of having a voice in the Legis-
4rtirctitiool whether electors or rah were in lature but it
them,evaorated when her Majesty's Speh was
41 CI hvi ascribed b his Hon. Friend. is Hon. laid before and turned out to
.lan simply a redress
ea11°44.1.
ofu stated that he derived one great argument in of the grievances of Ireland. He rejoiced sincerely that
tlttltio his motion from the nature of the the representation of that country was to be increased
os which yth e io, nicn they were about to grant from 40,000 to 250,000; but did the Government con-
qto
or nabitants of New Zealand and of the ceive that they could any longer resist a similar expae-
tla/) ink Good Hope. Now he (Sir George sion in this country ? Was it wise to wait till they
hi to the 41 the House if there was any analogy be- were driven to it by some formidable convulaion?—
tlitse,ll; th aett4,ite, of this country and that of the Cape (Hear, hear.) He himself had always kept aloof from
ketitl°,l3 4-reuln,duee them to adopt here the same. con- taking a. part in itinerant agitation. He was anxious
1,4411 r„, " they were about to grant to that cotonyr to remain so, but how. difficult was it when such a bOon
'1,.0 'Pet c'-'netobered that in the Cape there was to be was held out to agitation at all times. Mr. Fox in the
l°sweb:?,elkerke,i,....basedon the representative principle. debate on the Triennial Bill said he feared no improve-
Nee,s'eateso isett
.srlon. Friend whether he was prepared ment would be carried for the people till they had arms
chamber for the in their hands; and Sir J. Mackintosh said the same
j_tord"8111 country an elective
4UkiE thing. One who knew fear as little as any man, except
tese g. Qi.ts,e--ssl should have no objection.—(A laugh.) that he feared that which
.might bring disaster on his
ltdiee continned—Well, then, let the House country, the Duke of Wellington, declared. that it was
'Nl4.4llfft -4' his Hon Friend had no objection to uni- the dread of civil war which drove him to grant Catho-
„ has rt... ..
eto ett shat he had no objection to extend the lie emancipation.. Who doubted that it was the revo-
hap POin,""lon; that he had no objection to adopt lution in Paris in 1830 which produced the Reform
Bill, which `0 the -3 of the Charter; and that he had no objec-
tie(a4°lttt, establishment of an elective House of Lords. of revolution through the agency of political unions,
illitj'tieodear.) lie certainly did not think that his which he, though tempted much more at that time
Ittpdtilat would be a safe guide for them to follow by youth, refused to join. Then came the corn-
Ltless-.sh? tb°,,cesasaLons He thought. that they had. .better law. That agitation was commenced, not by the cotton
iosts Wirticiples of their ancient constitution.— interest, to whom all free-trade measures were attri-
tteatt kid 11 regard to the ballot, triennial Parlia- buted by some Hon. Members, but by a member of the
;It is had 3,ome other topics to whioh his Hon. aristocracy, the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton. At
„Ates'.otootin'Y incidentally alluded, he (Sir G. Grey) first he was not listene.d to; b.ut
.at length a course of
'le it% a ilot be advisable that he should then agitation took place different in its character from that
llte,leatiosnY discussion of their merits. But there was which preceded the Reform Bill, and one more marked
o ties itiut to which his Hon. Friend had frequently by logical argument, which finally brought conviction to
ks,l4/14.srtaie ell Pugh he (Sir G. Grey) had not been able the minds of the people. Still that House could not be
hi t -"is real intentions with respect to it—he brought to concur in a measure of total repeal till they
.11 th
he question of electoral districts—upon were driven to it by a famine.—(Hear.) Looking to
I.lllitltle(ll4lvottahati to offer a few observations. His Hon. what had passed on the continent such a course was
tae ,21 or o Part cf his speech had disclaimed any in- neither wise nor prudent; and this, in his opinion, fully
kOtitl44 of 11.4%blishing electoral districts; but all the ar- justified his Hon. Friend in bringing forward his motion
~eetiPointe Icon. 4011. Gentleman who had seconded the in a time of comparativ.e. peace.—(Hear, hear.) It was
Othe
n,. to electoral districts as the only mode of said there were no petitions, and no doubt there were
4ttir Gre,',uJeetions of the present system. Now he many more petitions presented the other night in favour
nos eleetl) held that the division of the country into of repealing the attorneys' certificate duty than had been
ihttataltstolsal
,districts, returning equal numbers of presented in favour of this measure; but surely the
eliteds arnament would be the destruction of the Government and that House would not take this as a
,essettv:tetttieolt:irlie_Lonstiiution. It would deprive. us of proof of indifference on the par's of the people. The
t,,eind we at present enjoyed of having all great reason why he supported the motion was that he
beet qousvaried interests of the country represented feared that the course which they were pursuing might
relic of . Ile was not prepared to say whether, in have the effect of throwing the people into the arms of
sigaslatd dears, some change ought not to be effected the Honourable Member for Nottingham. He should
74teitillt parts the number of Members returned from always most deeply regret to see them placed under such
OF al of the country, but he believed that the a leader; for, without imputing any unworthy motive
etts let?' tbrts°ral districts would either render it to him, he most grossly deluded the people by the ab-
Lr^tini;,neutuse number of Members in that House street principles which he endeavo.ured to instil into
f au beyond the limits which would leave their minds with respect to taxation, representation,
feet, teer body them to discharge the functions of a deli- and the right to resist, leaving to the people
ttllttlesthe oo°r that it would deprive many important to decide in what mode that resistance
hisshould be offered.
ttt salletatiot untry of their fair share of our system of —(Hear, hear.) The measure of Hon. Friend, on
4„41, hBl,itutios Now, he did not wish to maintain that the contrary, was perfectly consistent with our constitu-
b`tlittievee,,of that House was perfect ; but he cer- tion in every respect.—(Hear, hear.) It was the natural
tit!rtit admitulat the Reform Act had not failed. That growth of our constitution, adapted to the habits of the
hipot,. tied into that House representatives of people, the laws under which they had lived, the system
Commr.4'°us towns, who had conferred great ser- under which they had been governed, and the direction
grates tided
itiderunity at large by the mode in which which their minds had take.n. It was. the fate o.f cut-
e
~,40t pr. 4 the deliberations of the House ; but and-dried constitutions to fad. The wisest lea isle of
!tilt3try'"v43 'Pared to sacrifice to the wishes of those antiquity were not framers of cut-and-dried constitu-
lit.,lee b the other important interests of this lions, but ref amers. Solon, when he was asked, " He.tve
Itti' the' tiks efte"eved that the House, as at present con- you given the people of Athens the best constitution
I„.t.j..hPopwa_Peble of deliberating on questions affect- possible?" replied, " I have given them All the
best
l
t4l bat
,sr nghts in a liberal and enlightened spirit. I constitution for them.' —(Hear, hear.) me del
)01,1,41e fresent before them a Bill for largely ex- constitutions, from those of Plato to those of Lord
e`ot tOleetioattellise in Ireland—(Hear, hear)—and one Bacon and Sir T. More, would be most egregious failures
te‘all at th,jrna to the motion of his Honourable Friend if put to the test. Jeremy Bentham. had the. same mo-
th 11y sill'eseot assenting to that motion that evening nomanie, and fancied he could ship off constitutions to
04Lros41,,a4ble great barrier to the progress of 1 the Brazils just like a cargo of goods. An
.attempt
Nt:4 other
emineuse.eures, prominent among which was had been made of late to frame a cut-and-dried con-
-ooest pro sion of the franchise in Ireland, and stitution for New Zealand, but like dried flowers it
Nti4ltiosPrese Pnattls of a practical and useful cha- took no root in the earth. He had been asked if
tl,,oftlirlt before th t, Qatparliament' for improving the he was a Republican. He was not one who thought
test e %sat*, tu-ountry._(Elear, hear.) The conside- either a Monarchy or a Republicgood in the abstract.
fiat ensures "sures should be indefinitely postponed All depended on circumstances, He believed that no.
teckt4,sias to be plunged into an sgitation-for a thing would fit this country hut King, Lords, and Com-
te% eft thou Ye Reform Bill. He did not think that mons. But look at the United States—what could they
itb en to
% rasp Waste their time in profitless discus- be but a Republic? What motives hid they for a Mo-
ils' Nott,he ss-- hers t 0 universal suffrage and the six narchy? But so long as we had rulers
.who would con-
tetltaatt!cal
elter, While they could devote it to sound duct themselves like our present Sovereign—so long as
41111 "t N,I0113 to Satires of legislation. He had stated we bad an aristocracy wise enough to know the time for
‘4ll:,heja ss.asionctlie motion as be had stated them' on concessions, even against that which they themselves..
al irat' p lie hoped the House would refuse to might think right and just—so long as the constitution
kNitta.uvejohY w° end to lay his. measure on the table,- *as carried on. with
. that
. degree of. good sense and sound
ttnaltetio e ot give their sanction to-a Propo- ' judgment, which, in spite of manifold defects, still cha-
Sqt es 11 reet,,,l Viet opposed to that on which our racterised the general mass of our gentry, so long should
h!t%te a d and which, if adopted, would create wei be-safe tinder a government of King, Lords, and
tp„,l"- 'antes Pttei's,tltoY overriding every other power in Commons.—(Hear, hear.) The question then came
tlieZeoij sh;toeved that the establishment of a pure whether it would be unsafe to intrust a much larger
!itZlit worttlil°tule would be inconsistent with the number of the people with the elective franchise ?
~Ys 0447 ought /1g of our constitution; and es ho (Hear, hear.) The principle of his Hon. Friend's men-
Nivl4lo " of Nino be thankful for living under the sure was not universal suffrage, but that every man of
43 Pro g, Lords, and Commons, which, in full age, and not under any mental or legal disability,
°lt et hi aid be
, „ •st„,,' Re,. endangered by the adoption of the with a qualification of residence and rating, paying soot
(6, to 4, *tend, he hoped that they would and bearing lot—
h to taat motion.
'l')e, :41 s - Sir G. GREY-.-Payment is expressly excluded.
ns. ea oats . said it appeared to him that Mr. P. WOOD did not mean to say that his Hon.
to the, •
(hit set nsistency in the speech of the Righ. Friend intended to make his system an engine for Col-
the who
lecting taxes. "This, hoivever, was a matter of detail.
If _ Whole , oompliinel that that motion went The qualification was insisted on. His Hon. Friend's
totele t:tete4 th:t of universal suffrage, while he proposition was the same, in fact, as that laid down by
n s‘a• .Psiess it fell far short of such a system. a very great lawyer, and one much referred to by Hon.
tsti, im'utiost the
, Member for Montrose bad not Members on the other side—namely, Blackstone, the
tt hits, a terra Pleasing to the Right Hon. Ba- only difference. between
k 4) laad adroitthethem being as to the amount of
'tot 141 the principle and lick the Bill into the qualification. Could things remain long in their
4lt the e•Y forgot present position? They had 4,500,000 of grown-up
I..the the • st,ce the progress which public opi- men, of whom about 900,000 had votes, includin the
ileatte,o 2_ t h.ad made more progress double votes—he would call it 1,000,000. Was it tgei be
t,:oe,;k. %Zees in Zs of
other
country than perhaps
Montrose
country in the world. supposed that the remaining '3,500,000 would • long re-
ql4ooei b er for
Is, es had animadverted on
t,,k;ttraiethriufeeacehtfiaueldeurhsrigmedto show main tranquil 'under this exclusion?—(Hear, hear.) Was
any part of his the development 'whiCh bad. taken place in the
the people to violence. genre of the people during the eighteen years which had
thou d ince the pauing, of the Reform Bill, to- bd.
r turnedQf elapsed
Cenothieg of ?. §iuce tun' Aey had builto