The Sun.
London, England, 1850-05-18 00:00:00

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.

RECALL OF THE FRENCH AMBASSADOR.

Mr. DISRAELI said, it having been officially an-
nounced that the Ambassador of the French Republic
had been recalled from the Court of St. James's, and that
that recall had been occasioned by conduct on the
part of her Majesty's Government, supposed to be
derogatory to the honour of the French Republic, he
trusted ber Majesty's Government would feel the expe-
diency of communicating to the House the causes of an
incident of such grave importance.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said all he could at present state
in reply to the Hon. Gentleman was that the Minister
of Foreign Affairs for the French Republic informed
Lord Normanby, that, in consequence of what he con-
sidered misconduct on the part of the British Govern-
ment, he thought it necessary to recall the
French Ambassador. M. Drouyn de Mays had been
sent here, in order to settle the affairs of Greece,
and negotiations having terminated, or rather
failed, it was necessary that the Ambassador
who had been sent for that purpove should be recalled.
He could only add that he regretted that any ill-feeling
should exist on the part of the French Government, be-
cause there had been on the part of her Majesty's
Government every wish to listen to the representations
ut the Government of France with respect to the affairs of
Greece, and he had hoped that the iutervention of Baron
Gros, the French negotiator in Greece, would have
been successful, and they were ready to afford every
facility to bring the affairs to a conclusion by
means of the good offices of France. Baron
Gros had, for what reason he could not imagine,
given up his mission on the 27th of April, and thus
put an abrupt termination to all negotiations on the
part of France. But had he waited in Greece until the
dispatches were received from this country, which ar-
rived almost immediately afterwards, no doubt the
matter might have been arranged, and any unpleasant
misunderstanding prevented.
Sir J. WALSH said it was a matter of no-
toriety that the document recalling the French Am-
bassador was read by the Minister for Foreign
Affairs in the French Assembly, who stated ho
had requested a copy of it to bo sent to the
British Government, and he wished to know whether
that document hed been communicated to the Govern-
ment, and was in their possession when Lord Palmerston
answered a question yesterday on the affairs of Greece?
Lord J. RUSSELL said no copy of that letter was re-
ceived by the Government.

Mr. IiOEBUCK wished that there should be no mis-
understanding upon this serious subject.—(Hear, hear.)
It might be presumed, from the explanation of the Noble
Lord, that some blame attached to the French Minister,
fur a breach of duty in not obeying the instructions con-
tained in the letter from his own Government. because,
in the letter which the Foreign Minister of France
read to the French National Assembly, there
was a statement that the contents of that letter
were to be communicated to the British Government
through the Foreign Secretary of the country.—(Hear,
hear.) Now what he wished to ask the Noble Lord was,
simply, was the Noble Lord at the head of the Foreign
Department familiar with the contents of this letter
when he made his explanation yesterday ?—(Cheers.)

_
Lord JOHN RUS-SELL said there were two modes
of making a diplomatic communication to the Foreign
Minister, either by reading the dispatch which an am-
bassador had received from his Government to the
Foreign Minister himself, or by leaving a copy of it for
him at his official residence.—(ob, oh.) The last mode
was usually adopted—(ol), on)—but in this instance
that practice had been departed from—(Oh, oh) —and
no copy of the dispatch was left with his Noble Friend,
though it was wads known to him.—(Oh, oh.)
Sir J. WALSH must trouble the Noble Lord again.
Vas he to understand that although a copy of the dis-
patch was not formally lodged with the Noble Lord the
Secretary for Foreign Affairs, yet when the Noble Lord
made his explanation yesterday he was in full possession
of the contents of the dispatch.—(Cheers.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied—No doubt the
French Ambassador read to my Noble Friend the dis-
patch which he received from his own Government in
France—(Cheers)—but, at the same time, M. Drouyn de
l'Huys accompanied the reading of it with such obser-
vations and explanations which he thought proper to
make during a long interview which followed.—(Oh.)
Mr. C. ANSTEY—Perhaps the Noble Lord will
allow me to take this opportunity of putting another
question to him on this subject. In consequence of what
has taken place in this affair, may the Marquis of Nor-
manby be soon expected in this country ?—(Cheer,)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to reply
that no orders had teen sent out for the Noble Marquis's
return.—(Oh, ob.)
The subject then dropped.
BURDENS ON LAND.
Sir H. WILLOUGHBY wished to know if it was the
intention of Government to bring forward any measure
this session for a reduction or equalisation of the bur-
dens that now press upon the cultivation of land in the
country.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL was understood to reply in
th© negative.

ESTIMATES.

Mr. HUME would be glad to know if the Noble
Lord proposed to take the estimates on Thursday, be-
cause at present it was his (Mr. Hume's) intention to
go out of town for a week.—(Laughter.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was advisable that the
motion should be made for going into Supply
on Thursday, to afford Government and the
House an opportunity of entering into any explanation
that might he necessary on the important subject which
had just dropped.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DISRAELI hoped the papers relating to the
Greek transaction would be laid on the table before
Thursday.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not propose to enter into
any further explanation of the matter till the papers
were before the House.
Mr. COBDEN asked if the House was to understand
that the motion for supply would be moved on Thursday,
for the purpose of discussing the question of Greece, or
did the Noble Lord really intend to proceed with the
estimates on that day ?—(Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL proposed to go on with the
votes on Thursday.
Mr. E. DENISON asked what votes would be taken?
_ Lord J. RUSSELL said he proposed to take in regu-
lar order the naval estimates which were not concluded,
eSa r hear.)
OH r
0
ECCLESIASTICAL
mariadtetshch then he should proceed with the miscellaneous esti-
Fmates.—(gear SE
EXRS
SO NHEORUSS AE
.N D THE
Sir BENJAMIN HALL s!iid, it appearing by the
second report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, p. 11,
that on the sth day of August, 1845, and the 26th day
altering and amounting
to 3,0001. were paid " for
of May, 1846, sums
improving the house at Exeter," he begged
to ask Lord John Russell whether any further sum has
been advanced for a similar purpose; if so, the date
when advanced, and the amount,
and by
what authority such sums were advanced; whether any
account has been rendered to the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners of the manner in which those sums have been
expended, and, if so, the date of such account, and when
it was rendered.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who was almost inaudible
in the gallery, was understood tosay,thaayt, blyB4o6r,dae r s ofm
Council, dated in August, 1845, and m
amounting to 5001., and not 3,0004 had been advancedsu
for that purpose. That sum was advanced out of a sum
of money, the dividends of which the Bishop of Exeter
WAS entitled to draw.
INCOMES OF THE ARCHBISHOPS AND
BISHOPS.

Sir B. HALL asked Lord John Russell, whether,
when the Ecclesiastical Commissioners last revised the
incomes of the Archbishops and Bishops, they received
from them a detailed account of their incomes from lands,
fines, rents, and all other sources, for the purpose of show-
ing the gross income, and whether, in order to show the
„net-income, the Archbishops and Bishops gave in under
different heads the several items of expenditure) and, if
not, upon what data the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
fithiteedcotrnhe sums that should be paid into the Episcopal
Fund from the richer sees, and the sums that should
be paid from that fund to the poorer sees; and whether
and particular
Commissioners will make a return of the data upon
swjahsictiheaslucchomremviisio.n was founded. Whether the. Eccle-
siastical
ohfatdh,eurrhave
belongingrec ew received full
and
several tees, the mode in which') such property isleased,

the date of the several leases, the fines and rents re-
ceived by the Archbishop or Bishop, and the names of
the parties to whom leases have been granted. As it
appears by the return of incomes made in 1845, that
the net income of the Bishop of London was re-
duced from 14,510/. 9s. 4d. in 1847, to 12,4811. Bs.
in 1843, notwithstanding the Paddington estate was
built upon during that interval, and the Bishop of Exe-
ter's net income fell from 2,1361. Os. 9d in 1837, to 3411.
10s. sd. in 1843, to ask whether any reasons were given
for such diminutions, and if so, to what causes they are
attributable ? He desired to know when the Ecclesias-
tical Commissioners purposed making any report of their
proceedings, no report having been made for three years.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say the returns
on this subject were made by the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners septennially, and that the period for making the
next return would be in 1851, when the information de-
sired by the Hon. Baronet would probably be furnished.
LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND) BILL.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD asked Lord John
Russell on what day after the recess it was intended to
propose the second reading of the Landlord and Tenant
(Ireland) Bill?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the matter was in the
hands of his Hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland. He
(Lord John Russell) could not fix the day for the second
reading of the Bill.
BUOYS IN THE SOUTH CHANNEL.

Mr. HUME asked the First Lord of the Admiralty
whether any measures had been adopted to meet the
wishes of ;the inhabitants of Southport (as laid before
this House in petition) respecting replacing of the buoys
in the South Channel, which were removed in 1846, and
the removal of which has led to loss and to great incon-
venience to the commerce of that port and channel?
. . .

Sir F. BARING said the matter was one in which the
Admiralty could not directly interfere.

STEAM COMMUNICATION WITH SOUTH
AMERICA.

Sir T. D. ACLAND rose to ask the First Lord of the
Admiralty whether a fresh contract had been entered
into, or is in course of negotiation, with the Royal Mail
Steam Packet Company, for the improved conveyance
of the mails to the West Indies and South America;
and whether provision has in the former easy been made,
or in the latter is intended to be made, in such contract,
for requiring the packets to put in at some western port
for the purpose of taking the mails on board, if such
arrangement should appear to her Majesty's Govern-
ment, during the existence of the contract, to be condu-
cive to public convenience?
Sir F. BARING said he was not prepared to answer
the question in full detail, but he could assure the House
that the subject was under consideration.
ABOLITION OF THE:. LORD-LIEUTENANCY
OF IRELAND.

The LORD MAYOR of DUBLIN presented a peti-
tion signed by 10,000 of the inhabitants of Dublin
against the removal of the Court of the Lord-Lieutenant
from Dublin.

Mr. H. GRATTAN presented petitions of a similar
nature from different places in Ireland.
Lord J. RUSSELL then rose. and said he was about
to move for leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the
abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and
for the appointment of a Fourth Secretary of State. In
bringing thissubject before the House he was not unmind-
ful of the great importance of it; and, in the first place,
he wished to clear away two points of misrepresenta-
tion which had been industriously spread abroad. The
one was, that it was the intention of the Government to
remove the courts of law from Dublin along with the
Court of the Lord-Lieutenant. Now he could assure
the house that there was not the slightest
intention of any step of the sort contemplated.
The other was that this was an entirely new idea, and
of recent origin. The present Government had
had the measure in contemplation for some time,
and when Lord Clarendon went to Ireland as
Lord-Lieutenant ho went with a full under-
standing that that office would be totally abolished, and
that whether the abolition should take place in a few
months or at a longer time would depend entirely on
the position of Ireland and the circumstances of the
Government. The general principles of the
measure no one could doubt of; it was much better, as
the countries were united, that their governments
should be united, and that those who had the charge
of the affairs of the country should be able to
meet together and consult about the measures
to be adopted. This view was much strengthened
by the opinion of one of the greatest men that this
country could boast of, who had taken a
great share in the union of Ireland, and who
was so imbued with this sentiment that he
could scarcely bear the temporary institution
of the Privy Council in that country. The
Noble Lord then proceeded to read an extract
from a letter of Lord Somers in the Hardwicke Papers.
There were reasons at the time of the union with Ire-
land far maintaining an Administration in this part of
the United Kingdom, for the country was then at
war; still at that time the subject of the abolition
of the office of Lord-Lieutenant was considered by
the Crown, and although it was not thought advisable to
adopt that step then, it was nevertheless the opinion
of the advisors of the Crown that at some future period
tho office ought to be abolished. The question for the
House now to consider was, whether or no the
proper period had yet arrived.—(Hear, hear.) With
regard, then, to the Executive administration of Ireland,
few would dispute with him that it was of the utmost
importance that the great officers of state in Ireland
should always be in a position to have oral communica-
tion with the Supreme Government itself. The
officers connected with the Colonial Administration
enjoyed that advantage, but in reference to
Ireland, every important step or measure that
was taken with regard to that country, had
to be negotiated in the Government through the
medium of written communications.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord then proceeded to say—Although it
has always happened, when I was connected with the
Government, that the individuals holding the office of
Lord-Lieutenant have been intimate friends of mine, and
have been in constant communication with me, yet I
have always felt the difficulty of being obliged to ask, by
letter, for explanations of the measures necessary to be
taken, and to ask for answers to the objections that
might naturally arise upon the proposals that may have
been submitted to the Government. I consider this a
disadvantage, in the first place, to the Imperial Govern-
ment of this country; but, in the second place, I believe
it to be a much greater disadvantage to Ireland. I be-
lieve Ireland to be a great loser by not having a Minis-
ter in the Cabinet—(Hear)--who can explain the inte-
rests of that country on any particular question, who
can state the course of policy which it may be desirable
to pursue, and who can enforce, by means of his prac-
tical knowledge and by the ability which he can bring
to the task, the adoption of the course which he
would recommend.—(Hear, hear.) I say, therefore,
that I think the keeping up of the Lord-Lieutenancy
in Ireland is a disadvantage to Ireland in con-
ducting Irish business, whether administrative or
legisletive.—(Hear, hear.) And so greatly has this
been felt, that on more than one occasion a Chief Se-
cretary for Ireland has been placed in the Cabinet for
the purpose of discussing Irish measures. The House
must see that this is a remedy which could only have
been had recourse to owing to the deficiency of the con-
struction of "an Administration in Ireland, because, to
have a Lord-Lieutenant in Ireland, and to allow his se-
cretary a seat in the Cabinet, to give orders to his own
chief, is in principle most objectionable.—(Hear, hear.)
Sometimes it has been found exceedingly convenient, but
at other times, as I can testify myself, and as it obviously
must happen when a Chief Secretary is a man of great
talents and great energy; in fact, the government of Ire-
land is vested in the Chief Secretary, and the views which
aro carried into effect are not those of the Lord-Lieute-
nant but of his secretary. If this, then, is the case, I
say it would be a great benefit, both on general princi-
ples cf administration and also in the management of
affairs, if you had a chief in the Cabinet, and his under-
secretary, like other under-secretaries, to consult and
advise with upon various matters that may arise. But,
Sir, while the present inconvenience has been al.
ways felt to be considerable, objections have been
stated which at the time were plausible, and perhaps
conclusive, that it was impossible to give orders in suf-
ficient time to be carried to Ireland; that it was neces-
sary to have an executive on the spot, and more espe-
cially on important occasions, such as those affecting the
life of a convict who might be reprieved by the exercise
of the prerogative of mercy, but, owing to some change
of wind or delay in the journey, might not receive the
benefit of the pardon or commutation granted him. Now,
Sir, however valid these arguments might have been in
former times, the whole force of them is done away with
by the change which has taken place in the means of
locomotion throughout the country.—(Hear, hear.)
Upon that subject there is no document which I can pro-
duce which would be so convincing as a publication well
known to Hon. Members, called " Bradshaw's Railway
Guide."—(A laugh.) Any person who will con-
sult that interesting work will find that a steamer
arrives in Kingstown Harbour at half-past ten at
night with the intelligence which leaves London
in the morning, and that a person in about seven
hours can travel from Dublin to Cork by the South-
Western Railway. That is a rapidity of communication
which far exceeds that which existed between this
country and Scotland at the time of the union, when ahe
separate administration was abolished—(Hear)—.a ra-
pidity of communication which refutes and puts an end
to all those arguments which were derived from the dif-
tuilvtey
teof c
carryei ee
intonic ati on
rapida nedffetehte
tnheec e ssi
desiresty
eannde
txhees
cugeneral reasons regarding administration
twhiesshee seer ef the
ee
general Government.—(llear, hear.) Sir,
and legislation which make me think it desirable to
abolish the Lord-Lieutenancy, and to put a Secretary of
State in the place of the Lord-Lieutenant. But if we
refer to Ireland, and ask what benefits the Lord-Lieute-
nthaentcyinconmforaseyuproenspetehtast ctohuentes
rxilte think we
e
Lieutenancy is far more injurious than beneficial.—
(Hear, hear.) And I think there are several points of
existence o f that shall
L Lord-
Lieutenancy
in which that injury may be made apparent to the
House. In the first place, the Lord-Lieutenant is
placed in an anomalous kind of position. He is asked
for everything, applied to for everything, and blamed
for everything, and yet not having that power which
oh utt gthntett othe belongmtuon
ihtyi s
os tf a
tt
hi oen .r
ylla
le d
gansi
ttyh;e
hsee mh balsa lance,
responsibility but not the freedom of action of a minister
of the Crown. He is, therefore, obliged to bear much
without answering, and to appear to defend himself with
great reserve, and he cannot take the line which a
minister of the Crown can take to defend his course;
and at the same time he is not looked to with any of
that reverence which attends the person of the Sovereign.
" The divinity that doth hedge a king " gives but small
protection to a viceroy. We have seen in our own time
that the representative of royalty has been the mark
for factious and seditious attacks. We have seen
that no character, no kind of authority, no former ser-
vices, have saved Lord-Lieutenants from such attacks.
We can remember the violent outrages against Lord
Wellesley when he went to Ireland, with all the elm.

LONDON, • SATURDAY EVENING, MAY lB,

the whole there will be a saving, but at the same time
there will be clerks and other persons who cannot, after
a very long period of service, be removed without com-
pensation or superannuation.—(Hear, hear.) It is right
I should soy, at this part of the case, that as there is no
provision in the civil list for any expenses that may he
incurred in respect of the visits of her Majesty, there
may be cases when—not to the amount which was ex-
peaded when George the Fourth visited Ireland—but
when to some amount a call may be made to defray such
extraordinary expenses.—(Hear.) These visits tend so
much to make her Majesty acquainted with the feelings
of her people and afford them so much gratification,
that I consider it most desirable they should be
continued, and I am sure • the House will have no
hesitaticn in making such grants as may be
sufficient for the purpose. I have stated that
this change has been in eontemplation for some
time—that I think it will be an improvement in the
general government of Ireland—and that it will enable
the Irish Minister, whoever he may be, to bring before
the Cabinet and before Parliament measures with more
completeness and more successfully than he would be
able to do if he resided at Dublin. I have stated that,
as far as Ireland is concerned, there will be great advan-
tage in the change. I have stated also, Kith regard to
the local effect of a viceroy, that, however able, however
well-disposed he may be to act' impartially, it is totally
impossible for him to take such a line as to escape tee
resentment and obloquy of one extreme party, and that
his presence tends to keep alive and embitter party feel-
ings.—(Elear.) I have stated also that I think the pre-
sence of a Government in Dublin leads to a perpetual
reference of questions to the Government hero on which
they ought not to be consulted, and that the cessa-
tion of that reference will be a benefit to the people
of Ireland in the future administration of the
affairs of that country.—(Hear.) I have stated
also that I think there is nothing in the maintenance
of the Viceregal Court which ought to induce the House
to refrain from abolishing the institution, and that her
Majesty's Court in London is the natural and.proper re-
sort for her subjects.—(ilear.) I will state finally, that
I think, whether persons aro favourable to the union of
the two countries or not, they must all agree that this
institution should not be kept up. If they are favourable
to the union, and adhere to it as a settled and established
part of the institutions of this country, as I do myself, I
would then say if Mr. Pitt had been able to propose
this completion of the union at the time when he orig.-
nally brought it forward ho would have followed the ex-
ample of Lord Somers. Now the circumstances are fa-
vourable. To those who think the union should not exist
I say that they ought not to be satisfied with a partial
representation, which does not give a Parliament —which
does not give any power—but which, in fact, while it
does not give to the people of Ireland the right of having
an official representative among the Ministers of Eng-
land, gives them nothing in the shape of local power
as a substitute.—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion I will
sly that I trust in the circumstances of the time being
favourable to the abolition proposed. It happens that
Lord Clarendon in his administration of the viceroyalty
has had to encounter the effects of a famine—the dread-
ful sufferings caused by want and disease—he has had
to meet the outbreak of an insurrection, which was in-
tended to overthrow British power in that country.
Some of these difficulties having been overcome, I. trust
in the mercy of God that we may bo spared any similar
infliction.—(Hear.) And now, when the country is area-
quil—now, when it is governed peaceably, and at she
same time firmly, by the Lord-Lieutenant, I think the
fitting time has arrived when we may safely provide for
the abolition of the Viceroyalty by merging its substi-
tuted and delegated authority in the general power of the
United Kingdom,—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord con-
clurled by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the
abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, and
for the appointment of a fourth Secretary of State.
The question having been put,
Mr. GRATTAN rote to oppose the motion. He
thought the Noble Lord had made out a feeble case in-
deed in support of the motion. It was remarkable that
no notice had been taken of a measure of such import-
ance in the Speech from the Throne. He bad risen on
the present occasion to lift up his voice against the
abolition of this last remnant of Irish dignity.—(Hear.)
Thank God he was not yet a disciple of the Manchester
school. The Noble Lord had talked of different Lords-
Lieutenant having been bearded by individuals. But
whose fault was it that they had not been respected and
beloved ? The Irish people were not to be deceived by
these flimsy statements; it was but right that they should
have the opportunity of seeing their ruler face to face.
They could not come across the water for that purpose,
or peep through the tube to which the Noble Lord re-
ferred. The Government well knew why Lord Claren-
don was so unpopular, and why he had not a fraction of
the people to support him, except the persons who
were to be hanged at Ballingarry.—(A laugh.) If
Ministers withdraw the Lord-Lieutenant they must send
over two Commanders-in-Chief.—(Laughter.) There
would be no saving of expense in that. Why, what was
the present case? It was only Downing-street versus
Dublin. The Noble Lord had laid the venue in St.
Stephen's, because he thought he was sure of a verdict.
But he (Mr. Grattan) challenged the array. He told the
Noble Lord that he was asking for what he had not the
right to ask. Since 1361 there had been ninety-four Lords-
Lieutenant in Ireland. The office was one of popular
creation and ought not to Le abolished without consulting
the people. He advised the Noble Lord to stay procedure
on his Bill. When the question of the union was before
the House, Mr. Pitt said that Ireland could not justly
complain, became it was not proposed to remove the Lord-
Lieutenant.—(Bear, hear.) Lord Kilwarden said that
Dublin would remain the perpetual residence of the re-
presentative of his Majesty. But the Noble Lord said
" No." He would ask the House just to mark the
honesty of Downing-street, in a transaction to
which he would refer. When some measure had
been proposed for the benefit of Ireland in the
Parliament of that country, a missionary had been
sent over from England, who actually proposed to bribe
Lord Charlemont and Mr. Grattan, and the condition of
the bribe was, that they should use their influence to de-
lay the question before the House, in order to give the
British Ministry time to conrider what they had better
do. Lord Charlemont and Grattan, though brave men
and at the head of §O,OOO volunteers, had not, like
Napoleon, made fight, but retreated before the foe, and the
one retired to Merino and the other to Celbridge, but
they were uncorrupted and incorruptible. They had,
however, brought forward the measure in a few days
afterwards, and the result was, that they convinced the
Duke of Portland aad Mr. Fitzpatrick of the neccessity
of their proposition. These two functionaries had, ac-
cordingly made certain representations on the subject,
which the Irish people had subsequently pronounced as
"vigorous, faithful, and useful."—(Hear, hear.) He
would now give the House another case. In 1785,
under the Lord-Lieutenancy of the Duke of Rutland,
a question had arisen between England and Ireland
on which eleven propositions had been brought for-
ward in favour of the trade of Ireland. The Par-
liament had then granted 140,0001., having pre-
viously granted 100,000/. and 20,000 seamen to
man the British fleet. The Lord-Lieutenant having
agreed to those eleven propositions they were accord-
ingly sent over to England. But what had the Downing-
street Secretary done? Why, he made twenty-two re-
solutions out of them, but they had never been agreed
to or carried into effect. He came next to 1795, when
Lord Fitzwillians, than whom a more high-minded,
honourable, and patriotic man could not be found, went
over to Ireland, with promises from Mr. Pitt in favour
of the Roman Catholics; but on that occasion, also, the
Irish people were deceived. He thought the Govern-
ment were mistaken in the course they were at present
pursuing, and were laying down a bad precedent, which
they ought to avoid. They should adhere to expressions
and the spirit of treaties, which had been passed. No-
thing could be worse than for a Minister to lay down
doctrines of popular infidelity, and that was done when
it was proposed to break national compacts.—(Hear.)
He had quoted examples of jobbing and misconduct on
the part of Irish. Secretaries : he would come to a few
specimens of a similar kind in England. Did
they suppose that no such thing had ever
existed there ? Had Honourable Members ever heard of
the cases of a Trotter, a Steele, or a Melville? Had they
any recollections of numbers of military officers who had
figured at the bar of that House in matters between one
Mrs. Clarke and the Duke of York? The Hon. Member
here called attention to the names of various Lords-
Lieutenant of Ireland, whose families had been distin-
guished for their benevolence and general encouragement
of all charitable institutions, as well as patronage of arts,
sciences, manufactures, and civilization. Perhaps the
present proposition might: be intended as a matter to re-
concile all parties. They might perhaps have a Marquis
of Ballingarry or a Duke of Dolly's Brae to arrange the
political affairs of Ireland.—(Laughter.) He was glad
to see his Hon. Friend the Member fur Montrose (Mr.
Hume) back again in his place.—(Laughter.) He could
assure his Hon. Friend, who had left the House for
some time, that there was no economy in that measure.
—(" Hear, hear," from Mr. Hume.) His Hon. Friend
had said that the Scottish people were an economical
race because they wore no furs—(Laughter)—on their
garments. He feared such would be the habits of the
people of Ireland after the passing of that measure.
He could not congratulate the Noble Lord on the
time or the moment which he had chosen to bring
forward his present measure.—(Hear.) They had 40,000
soldiers and 10,000 policemen at present in Ireland,
and the people were flying in hundreds of thousands
from the country. Was it possible that the inhabitants
would be departing from the soil of their birth in such
numbers if there were not some more radical defect in
its social and political condition than the removal of a
Lord-Lieutenant ? The people never had much money ;
but the little they had they saved for emigrating. They
went to look for cheap government. They left this em-
pire in despair, and that was the reason why the
table of the House was not covered with petitions. The
frieze•coated people, whether Roman Catholic or
Orangemen, were leaving the soil, because English legis-
lation had rendered it an uninhabitable country. In
1848 and 1849, not less than 408,000 people had gone
to America, not to the British colonies, however, but to
the United States.—(Hear, hear.) They talked of
economy, but he could teach them what it really was.
The people were going for cheap government from a
land where it cost 55,000,000/. annually to where it
only cost 7,000,000/. The people of Dublin op.
posed the present measure because it would
be injurious in many respects as well as
ruinous to them. It would be injurious, also, to
the gentry of Ireland, in obliging them to come
over here to enjoy those associations and communica-
tions of refined and literary society which they could
now enjoy
• in their own metropolis. It had been said—
and the prediction was now about to be verified—that
one of the results of the union would be that the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland would be taken away. Now, he
would advise them if they lost their Secretary for France
to keep their Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. It was said,
indeed, they would not take away the courts of law from
Dublin; but be would ask them what was to become of
the Irish charities?—(Hoar.) Grants were said to be
made for Irish charities by the Imperial Legislature;

ratter and fame which had attended his viceroyalty
in India. We can remember that, as it was truly said,
some vagabonds exposed Mr. Addington to the im-
putation and attacks of being a partisan cf the
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. We can all recollect
that the Marquis of Anglesey, who was actuated by
the best and kindest motives towards Ireland, was de-
nounced as the " Algerine Anglesey," end described as
a tyrant and a despot, and held up in the most odious
light to the people of Ireland. When the Marquis of
Normanby was in Ireland, and the great majority of the
Roman Catholics were disposed to favour his viceroyalty,
a number of persons of high rank refused to attend the
levees at the Castle, and did not pay that respect which
was due to the representative of the Sovereign, because
they disapproved of the line of policy which he pursued.
—(Hear, hear.) We have had since that time other de-
monstrations of a similar kind. Ido not wish particu-
larly to refer to those which have more recently taken
place; but all these instances have shown that those who
are disposed to oppose the politics of a particular vice-
roy are rather excited to that attack than deterred from
it by the representation and the reflection of royalty
which he appears to exhibit. It seems to be a very
great thing and a grand display of patriotism to brave
and bully a viceroy in the Castle of Dublin. A Secretary
of
State,be
be attacked, may be blamed,
may
but he possesses freedom
vwieelaenlltly know,e may be
of action—ho can take his part in this House or in
the other House of Parliament, and neither the
Crown nor the Sovereign of the country suffers from
the debates which take place with regard to acts for
which he is obviously responsible.—(Hear, hear.) In
the next place, I think all the past history of the
Viceroyalty in Ireland shows that it tends to prevent
that harmony and that effective and impartial adminis-
tration which ought to exist. In former and past days
the Viceroyalty bore the semblance of a party, strong,
powerful, and energetic, but unjust and intolerant.
Those times have passed away. No Government which
has existed of late years has attempted to govern by
means of that party. But at the same time the
consequence of that change has been, that those who
formerly possessed the power, and who considered
themselves entitled to support at the Castle, are
rather irritated and embittered by being deprived of
that power—(Bear, hear)—while the great body of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland are apt to feel jealous
lest that partial administration should not altogether
have ceased, and they look at the Viceroyalty with
some fear that that spirit of partiality may be revived.—
(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, by mixing and compounding
the administration of? Ireland with the general adminis-
tration of the United Kingdom, you would get rid of
those feelings. You would not have a minority of Irish
people thinking that they ought to have a separate ad-
ministration, for themselves, for they would be bound up
together with the great body of the Protestants of this
country, and on the other hand the Roman Catholics
would not look to anything else than that fair and equal
share which they ought to have in the administration of
the United Kingdom.—(Hear.) Sir, I do not know
that against these objections, which seem to me of vast
weight, any argument can bo adduced to show the
House that we ought not to destroy this separate Court
in Ireland, unless indeed it be the access which it gives
to a great number of the nobility and gentry of
that country. It appears to me that the:e is no
reason, while the Queen herself is but ,12 hours'
distant, that there should be any other court than her
own, and I think that those who wish to pay the
homage of their loyalty might very well resort to her
Majesty herself for that purpose.—(flear.) And I am
cf opinion that the presence of a viceroy, his levees and
his drawing-rooms, rather tend to meted Shan to reflect
the splendour of the Throne.—(Hear.) On the other
hand I cannot but think that in this respect, as well as
in ,many others, the Irish are losers by a continuaece of
the Vice-royalty.—(Hear.) I think the habits of expense
into which many persons were led in taking their fami-
lies from a great distance to Dublin when they would
otherwise remain in the country, or sometimes pay an
occasional visit to London—l cannot but think that such
habits frequently operate very injuriously. There is,
moreover, another evil connected wiat that. facility of
resort to Dublin. I have already said that the Lord-
Lieutenant is applied to for everything, asked for every-
thing, and blamed for everything. Now, upon many
subjects no person in England or Scotland ever thinks
of asking advice of the Government or the Secretary of
State. There are many matters upon which magis-
trates and others are content to decide in the best man-
ner they can, leaving the ultimate judgment to the su-
perior courts. But the tact of a viceroy residing in
Dublin, surrounded with his legal advisers and others,
leads to continual applications by parties wishing to ob-
tain an opinion or some advice, which it is not the busi-
ness or duty of a Minister of the Crown to give.
It would be far better, according to the practice in Eng-
land and Scotland, that the magistrates and the people
should be taught to rely on their own interpretation of
the law, and that only upon rare occasions should they
resort to the Ministers of the Crown for advice. I think
that would be one of the results arising from the aboli-
tion of the Lord-Lieutenancy. But with regard to
other and more important occasions the alteration would
bo very beneficial. Large deputations are continually in
the habit of waiting on the Lord-Lieutenant. The Lord-
Lieutenant accepts their memorial. He can only say
that be will transmit it to England. It is then sent to
the Treasury or the Home-office, and there considered.
The whole case, perhaps, is not fully stated, and the
Lord-Lieutenant not having the power to decide, and the
Treasury or the Secretary of State not possessing all the
requisite information, neither the appeal nor the deci-
sion is so satisfactory as it ought to be. But in these
rare and important cases, if the Secretary of State in Lon-
don was resorted to, the whole case might be gone
through, the whole of the circumstances might be ex-
plained, and the decision would then be considered con-
clusive. Sir, I do not think it would be desirable
that Ireland, when deprived of its Lerd-Lieutenant,
should never have the opportunity of seeing its Sore-
reign.—(Hear, hear.) And I have great pleasure in
stating, though without being able to name any parti-
cular time at which her Majesty will visit Ireland,
that it is her Majesty's intention from time
to time to pay a visit to Ireland—(Cheers)—and that the
residence in the Phoenix-park will be maintained for her
Majesty's use.—(Continued cheering.) I can truly say
that the manner in which her Majesty was received upon
her visit last year, and the demonstrations of loyalty and
affection which sprung so universally and spontaneously
from the people, have left a deep impression upon her
Majesty's mind, and that her Majesty will at all times
be happy to take the opportunity of revisiting her sub-
jects in that part of the United Kingdom.—(Cheers.)
I will now, Sir, proceed to state the manner in which I
propose that the change shall take place. I propose,
that after the passing of the Act, her Majesty may, at
any time she may think it expedient, issue an order in
Council to carry it into effect. I propose, in the
next place, that another Secretary of State shall
be appointed, in addition to the present Secretaries,
for the purpose of carrying on the important business
connected with Ireland. I will not say that the arrange-
ment will entail upon the new Secretary all the duties
which at present devolve upon the Lord-Lieutenant, be-
cause it may be more convenient that some of his func-
tions should be exercised by the Secretary of State for
the Home Department. But I own, considering the im-
mense amount of business connected with Ireland, with-
out mentioning those unnecessary appeals to which I
have alluded—and considering also the number of Irish
measures which it is necessary to prepare for the con-
sideration of Parliament—l do not think it would be
possible for the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, charged as he has been of late years with so many
duties which did not formerly belong to his office—l do
not think it would be possible for him effectually to perform
all the duties which aro now performed by the Lord-Lieu-
tenant and the Chief Secretary for Ireland. I believe it
would be better upon the whole to keep the Lord-Lieu-
tenant, with all the disadvantages which I have stated,
than to attempt to throw this immense mass of business
into an office which is already sufficiently full, if not
overloaded, with business of other descriptions.—(Hear,
hear.) I propose, therefore, that power should be given
for the appointment of another Secretary of State, not
of course dividing his functions from those of the other
Secretaries of State. He will, of course, be charged with
the affairs relating to Ireland, but, like the other Secre-
taries of State, he will be capable of discharging every
function and duty belonging to a Secretary of State. I
think it would be very inconvenient if he should not be
capable of discharging the duties of the other secretaries,
or if they should not be prepared in their turn in his ab-
sence to dispatch the business connected with the Irish
department of affairs.—(Hear.) The Bill which has
been drawn up proposes-that the different powers now
exercised by the Lord-Lieutenant and the Privy Coun-
cil should be exercised by her Majesty and the Privy
Council, and that the new Secretary of State and one Un-
der-Secretary shall have the power of sitting in the House
of Commons. With regard to those powers possessed by
the Privy Council in Ireland which are of a judicial
nature, I propose to leave them with that Privy Coun-
cil, the Lord Chancellor being constituted the President
of the Council, or, in his absence, souse other Privy
Councillor named by her Majesty. With respect to the
several other powers belonging to the Lord-Lieutenant
of Ireland upon the advice or the recommendation of
the Privy Council in Ireland, we propose that that re-
commendation should be made through the Privy Coun-
cil in Ireland to her Majesty, and that her
Majesty
should exercise those powers.—(Hear.) The board
which we have recently created—the board of Poor-law
Commissioners for Ireland—will not exist in the contem-
plation of this Act in the manner in which it is at pre-
sent constituted. The Chief Secretary and the Under-
Secretary for Ireland are members of that board. We
account
con-
template
incurring
of the poor-law board ; but we think it necessary that
the assistant commissioner should take a place at the
propose to abolish the office of assistant commissioner, to
make the assistant commissioner ono of the commis-
sioners, with a salary, to be fixed by the Lords of the
Treasury, and that one other person should be named
to complete that peony board.or-aldawditienalexpense We do no
on
board of commissioners, and have the power of exercising
the functions now exercised by the chief poor-law com-
missioner. The present assistant poor-law commissioner
(Mr. Ball) will naturally become under the Act a com-
missioner. I know not that there is anything more in
this early stage of the measure which I need explain to
the House. The Bill has been for some months under
the review of the Government of Ireland, as well as of
those parties who have framed its provisions in this
country, and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland has very
carefully considered its provisions with the view of as-
certaining its bearing upon the existing Acts. Of course,
when the Bill comes before the House the matter will
require great attention, and those who are fully cognisant
of the Acts which gave powers to the LordeLieutenant
will see whether our object has been carried into effect
in a manner which will provide tor the future good
government of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.) I have not
touched upon one part of the subject, which in
the eyes of some persons may be of considerable impor-
tance, but which I consider as nothing in reference to
the magnitude of the scheme—l mean the question of
expense or economy in carrying
it into effect. On the

1850.

but they had diminished from 300,000/. down to
175,0001., and it appeared these were to be lessened 10
per cent. gradually until they were entirely done away
with. Now this he thought a most discreditable thing,
for he could tell them those grants were made out of the
money of the Irish people themselves. They only
supported eleven now out of all the charities, yet
they took away the Irish nobility and the Irish
gentry, and now proposed taking away the Irish
Court. What was to support these charities then?
The charities now amounted to 61—and what was to
become of them hereafter? There wore many cases
with respect to the administration of justice, and in
which human life was concerned, wherein it was essen-
tial that immediate communication should take place be-
tween the Lord-Lieutenant, judges, and juries. How
could that be done so promptly with a Secretary in
Downing-street? The declining state of the funds of
the Lying-in Hospital recently obliged the governors of
that institution to address letters to 400 of the Irish no-
bility, and to these appeals only 14 answers had been
sent, and subscriptions to the amount of only 15/. Such
was the state to which Dublin had been brought. Not
only was Dublin sunk, but the country itself was ruined.
Hon. Gentlemen said there were good accounts from
Ireland. What did that mean? Why, that the sun
shone there and the rain fell there as usual; but the
people were flying from the country, the tenants were
unable to pay any rents, and the gentry, who were com-
pelled to remain, were thrown into indigence. The
Honourable Member here went into a detail of a case
wherein some 40 persons who had been evicted from
their houses in the neighbourhood of a factory, and
who would not be permitted to enter any house in con-
sequence of the fears entertained of their communicat-
ing infectious disease, had been compelled to sleep on a
cold night in the open air, on some straw provided for
them by the chance humanity of an individual; and
one woman had taken in an orphan infant into her
house after nightfall to shelter it from the inclemency
of the weather, and kept it with her own family.
In the year 1801, immediately after the passing of the
Act of Union, there had been 161 members of the nobi-
lity residing in Dublin, and spending there annually a
sum of 2,000,000/. ; but in the year 1831 their number
had been reduced to thirteen, and their annual expendi-
ture to 96,000/. And in the year 1850 they amounted
only to three, and their annual expenditure to only
20,000/. The office of the Lord-Lieutenant in Ireland
had been granted, not by charter but by compact, and
that House had no right to violate the compact. Ire-
land had placed herself completely at the service of the
people of England ; she had given them her blood and
her treasure ; she had given them a Gough and a
Wellington, and had immortalised the English name,
They asked her for her heart, but that they had for-
feited, for the price they had set on it was dishonour.
Mr. GROGAN seconded the motion for meeting the
proposal of her Majesty's Government with a decided
negative. The fact of his rising to second that motion
ought, he thought, to convince her Majesty's Minis-
ters that Irishmen of the most opposite shades of poli-
tical opinion were opposed to that measure as one
fraught with injury and injustice to their country.
He regretted to find that during a discussion of
that importance there was not a single Cabinet Minister
on the Treasury benches.—(The Hon. Gentleman was
here informed that Mr. F. Maule was present.) He had
not at first seen the Right Hon. Gentleman; but he cer-
tainly could not help observing that none of those lead-
ing members of the Cabinet who ought to feel pecu-
liarly interested in such a discussion had thought proper
to remain in the House to hear the case which Irish
Members might endeavour to make out in favour of their
country upon that occasion. That circumstance only led
him to apprehend that they had come to a determina-
tion to carry the measure, whatever might be the force of
The arguments advanced against it.
On the motion of an HoN. MEMBER, the House was
here counted, but it having been ascertained that there
were forty Members present, the debate was continued.
Mr. GROGAN resumed—He believed the object of
that measure was neither more nor less than centralisa-
tion. All the Irish establishments were one by one
being transferred to this great metropolis. But was it
safe, he would ask—was it just, was it wise, was it
politic to continue such a system? He confessed he had
never heard less conclusive arguments than those by
which the Noble Lord had attempted to support his
proposal. The Noble Lord had talked of the desirable-
ness of establishing a means of oral communication be-
tween the Government and the great officer of
state at the head of the Irish Administration ;
but ho (Mr. Grogan) had reason to believe that
it was still more desirable that a means of oral
communication should exist between that high func-
tionary and the parties charged with the administration
of the law in Ireland. Then, again, the Noble Lord had
said that the abolition of the viceregal court would have
the effect of preventing the Irish gentry from spending
money at a distance from their estates; but it should be
remembered that the Irish gentry would still have the
inducement held out to them of spending their money in
this great metropolis, and by that means further increas-
ing the centralising system. Another argument put
forward by the Noble Lord was that the Irish magis-
trates ought to be deprived of the temptation to consult
perpetually the Irish Government on the internal admi-
nistration of their respective districts. But the Irish
magistrates knew by experience that they could not
with safety follow the dictates of their own judgments,
because on more than one occasion, when they had
devoted their best exertions to the carrying out of
the law, they had been censured for having done so.
The Noble Lord had further stated, that under the
arrangement which he had proposed, the Secre-
tary of State for Ireland would be on the spot
to defend himself in Parliament. But it should be
remembered that that functionary should rely for his
defence on the information which he might receive from
his subordinates in Ireland. He did not deny that by
the adoption of the proposal of the Noble Lord, a small
money saving might be effected; but he feared that that
trifling advantage would be purchased at the cost of a
great increase of discontent and suffering in Ireland.
The office of the Lord-Lieutenant afforded a last rem-
nant of what Ireland had been previously to the union.
Where were the nobility who had then resided in Dub-
lin? They had left her impoverished and decayed
streets. And the adoption of the proposal of the Noble
Lord would consummate the ruin of that city. Such a
system must, in the end, re-act on this country. Dublin
had some time ago been on a smaller scale what Lon-
don was at present; but it was impossible to picture to
one's-self the misery she had of late years been suffer-
ing. And why was that last blow to be inflicted on
her? He found no petitions in favour of the measure,
and no indications that it was called for by public
opinion. One of the grounds on which Lord Castle-
reagh had defended the union was, that it would leave
Ireland a court, and with it so many of the amuse-
ments of polished life, that there could be no induce-
ment for the Irish gentry to reside in the great capital
of the empire. It appeared from statistical returns
which he held in his hand that the amount of capital
and the number of hands employed in all the great
branches of trade in Dublin, and in many of the other
principal cities of Ireland, had greatly decreased since
the union; and the decrease was still going on without
interruption. Crime had.at the same time increased, in
consequence of the great poverty and distress of the
people. If the Lord-Lieutenantey were abolished, many
wealthy families would no doubt leave Dublin, and then
the artisans and tradesmen who depended for their
means of subsistence chiefly on the expenditure of those
families would be reduced to a state of hopeless ruin.
The population were leaving the country. Those who
had escaped the pestilence were fast emigrating to the
United States—the Government of which might perhaps
to-morrow be found in a hostile attitude to this country.
It would be well for the Government to pause in the
course which they were pursuing. They all knew the
complaints which had been made of the manner in
which some districts of England had been inundated with
Irish pauperism. They had also seen the manner in
which the Irish poor had been sent back to their
own country, and how a lazaretto had been estab-
lished to check the communication between one part
of the United Kingdom and another. They had over-
laden Ireland till she could no longer bear up against the
burden. Look at what was passing in the Encumbered
Estates. Courts. Some bold men were found to pur-
chase, and he hoped they would continue to do so, but
what had become of the original owners of the soil?
They were being swept away to make room for new
proprietors, who could not be expected to cherish the
same sentiments and attachments to the spot as their
predecessors. The result of the course they were pur-
suing would soon be to drive every man of consequence
from Ireland, which would then become a wretched co-
lony, governed by tax-gatherers and excisemen. Had
time and opportunity been afforded, the people of Ire-
land would have made known their sentiments to the
House in the shape of petitions. His own consti-
tuents, convinced that the measure would inflict on
teem lasting injury, had expressed their sentiments
on the subject, with which he concurred. The Noble
Lord said the present moment was favourable be-
cause Ireland was in a tranquil state, but that tran-
quillity was the tranquillity of exhaustion. There
were many establishments in Dublin—he alluded
to the medical charities—which received 20,000/. a
year from the Imperial Government, the remnant of its
paternal care previous to the union. This was in a
course of reduction. It was stated also that the esta-
blishment for old soldiers was to be brought over and
centralised here. He belived that Scotland and the pro-
vinces of this country had felt the mischievous effects of
centralisation, but above all Dublin. In conclusion he
had only to state that, in whatever shape such a propo-
sition as the present might be brought before the House,
he would give it every opposition in his power.
Mr. FAGAN saidahat although he generally followed
the dictates of his own judgment, yet, if in Ireland he
knew the general feeling to be against it—if the people
had expressed any decided opinion against it—if the in-
habitants of Dublin were anxious to oppose the propo-
sition, he should feel bound to bow to their decision:
But he did nut believe the people of Ireland were, gene-
rally, opposed to this measure. On the contrary, his ex-
perience taught him to believe that if not in its favour, a
great portion of the popular party in Ireland were di-
vided on the question. He agreed with the Noble Lord
that whether the Irish people were desirous of having
a real and complete union with this country, or whether
they clung to the hope of obtaining a domestic
Legislature, the abolition of the Lord-Lieutenancy was
favourable to either view.— (Hear, hear.) On the one
hand it would be impossible to have a real and complete
union as long as they had a mere proconsular Govern-
ment in Ireland, instead of the direct rule of the Sove-
reign, through the instrumentality of a Secretary of State,
having a seat in the Cabinet; and, on the other hand,
Ireland would never have any chance of carrying out
their'favourite project of establishing a domestic Parlia-
ment unless they had union among themselves, which
could never exist as long as they had a Lord-Lieutenant.
Of what avail had the offiee been? From the time of
Henry 11. to the time of Annethe, Lords-Lieutenant were
a kind of military chiefs, whose only employment was
to keep down the Irish people, oppress the Catholic
population, destroy the manufactures, and foster an

English party by every mode of corruetion ene•° sere,
Amongst all that had filled the„office Lord-Liutes_ et
he could only point to four aho had really the interests;
Ireland at heart; and they had, within the last few tr.
seen how two of these were treated on this side the a``
and the marquis oriC.,er;
Lord Anglesey, was removed,
manby subjected to every species of persecutione.o4
must, therefore, maintain that the existence of th
efilo
of Lord-Lieutenant could not in any way be Llisstioa
to Ireland. He had as great objections to centre
this
as any man; but those objections did net apply I,'Jss of
case. Had the Lord-Lieutenant been surrounded
yore with an exchequer and a military establishr,el3;
with customs and excise, entailing a vast expendielsoe eats,
could see the force of the objections; but all th, totioa
blishments had been removed, except the adusinis e the
'Lod'
of justice and the police. He could not reottellyof
Bard
to
necessity for maintaining the gewgaw offi
Lieutenant any longer. The statement with role erc•
the expenditure in Dublin, which it was suppose" ..-„a be
mote, he believed to be greatly exaggerated
e,peachteeat to
at
believed, moreover, that, taking the eu
100,0001. annually, more than three-fourths ..scrarea
pay for English servants and English ma d sae
When he looked to Edinburgh and Glasgow, aeorotry,
them flourishing without any such empty Peg ts ec-
he rejoiced to think that Ireland had a prospect °_etbe
tins; rid of the encumbrance. Had the feeling s,,f
Irish people been adverse to the Bill, the tahleed the
House would have been loaded with petitions, an
Lord Mayor would not have come down withsa,,Pooooo.
signed by only 10,000 out of a populetion of bogs
Sir H. Parnell once said that if they wished t° 0.
the feeling of the people of Ireland, and win the'.
.0
fidence, they could only achieve that by- abolislii.nagt
tio
office of Lord-Lieutenant. His conviction was tD,d.erce
measure would be serviceable to Ireland, and woke 'ass
duce union instead of discord.—(Hear, hear.) Pigoele
delighted to hear the announcement made by hear-)
the
• pay
Lord that it was the intention of her Majesty fore
f equetst visits to Ireland, for he believed that one
woo
night's residence of her Majesty at Phoenix Parl‘ gaol
produce more expenditure than that caused by re
Lord Lieutenant in a whole year. • st tbe
Mr. M. O'CONNELL said he would vote tsgalrlf
Bill. He stood there not as the representative etteto.
particular portion of Ireland, nor even as au Irish,' od
ber, but as a Member of the Imperial Parliameelsbo
to
as such bound to look to Imperial interests Wer°,iro DO
argue the question as a Repealer, he could do a
greater boon than the measure proposed. Were hip
argue it as a Catholic, he should regard it as offeringriaa
the most speedy means of getting rid of the terePerttle
ties of the Church of Eng land in Ireland. Tbtefdifelt
knew the inherent love which thepeople of 'Telee- ol3g
for institutions which had been long in exiatene
them. eater
Mr. B. OSBORNE hoped it would not be Pr-d, to
tuous in an English Member connected with Ireleh
address a few observations on the present question.ollo
must say that he could not admire the extraTheer
rr
genius, if he might so term it, of the lion. 111°19, -yea'
Meath, who had opposed the motion of the Nob'enolill
He must also congratulate the Lord Mayor of •vf ass
on having found a colleague who had made one of
Lest repeal speeches he had ever heard. Wi!hneratios'
to the question before the House, it lay, ltl his se-le tbser
in the narrowest compass. The question was yeeres;
the period had arrived when Ireland was to beg ° orated
like Scotland and Wales, and be virtually jecoffe oes
with England? He should not view the questirissig°
of mere saving or expense—he would not vie- mon'
one of vulgar arithmetic, nor as regarded the P5l ea
age of the Lord-Lieutenant—but as a question °boo
street policy of that country. If it could be,ainsess
that the retention of the office of Lord-Lielltellefrilb,
bound up with the feelings and prejudices of tifreatsee
people, he would say that it ought not to be CO11"'t-rafi,
on the parsimonious plea of expense. On the e°l3 et °
he should in that case consider it as cheap a Ps.ge2 Bel
the most ardent financial reformer could destre;oetiell
now that steam power had rendered the consletleier re;
SO rapid and certain, he could see no necessitY of
taining the office. lie believed that the retentl°oB4
the office would make the union an accoalP earl°
theory, and that so far from the Irish Polo
being in favour of it, they were indifferent seacell;erlis;
and in that case he thought it was the dutY,To'hetiew
ment to remodel the executive of Ireland. Ins -edege,
that the greatest mischief had been caused by Tor
vouring to engraft English institutions I.lPeutbe
habits. For one, he would not be deterred hi; 001
of centralisation, because it was not proposed 01:100'
with the courts of law or the public or charitab oast
tutions, or to rob his Right Hon. Friend the rad ees of
of his civic crown.—(A laugh.) He should be object
the first to object to any such proceeding. Die„°ed be
was merely to remove the Lord-Lieutenant, that
thought it as great a paradox in politics as in natt-ci
the shadow should remain when the substance hy; Pf
parted—that the viceroy should flourish when
liament had faded, and so far from its being a P„r"oof,°A"
remaining nationality, it was, in his opinion, a rseee's
national serfdom, and he knew of no office thar/".010'
so much to demoralise Ireland and to weaken Bek:• seal
that of Lord-Lieutenant. He believed that
time of the first Lord-Lieutenant, in 1633, IDletirlr:e
been done to conciliate the affections of sr,
people. The genius of Stephenson had dOrtaer
to unite the two countries than all the Lor'',o- eel
name that had been sent to Ireland in the last Or• o
turies. The Honourable Member for Meath to the
that the office was a national institution, was deer
allprejudices of the Irish people, and was conoee/-age I•
ras
acquired
iacpekqpv
eueo
tendency,dii
rnt hett
deehdpei
nreoa ernvli neveredrored ltaoah
less
swnaastiaonnail
j. the most glorious points of their history, '0
nsitnituittigenoblieescsts.lrS:iltliii
Ireland,
n7ai2sr,iedrwahhbeel
on
would
dfir
orassftkhLatothredm-D Henryef,
.01103151. d
$114.01:1
time to the present, how many Irishmen had P(10
office of Lord-Lieutenant ? From 1711 to 1"-aser.
one Irishman, James Duke of Ormond—(Hear'ail bed
From 1800 to the present time only two Irisbele les•
been appointed. The same might be said of the'tarissi
Chancellors—and the same of their Chief 6'eere" ;
de° 31
He for one saw nothing in the history or the CO, yelSSes
Lord Strafford connected with the nationality o`.a- Iffi
The Hots. Member for Meath had urged ths,C 7,11 ',";
a compact between the people of Ireland and Pe.,ars
Why the people did not then exist. What Ti;
character given of the Lord-Deputy Mouhtjefe.fsal,ol°d
the people were " brayed in a mortar," by sworw
and pestilence, under the rule of the Lord-D,
submitted themselves to the Government wi‘llo, fib";
strations of joy and gratitude. They all heav'ais
Lord Strafford had done for Ireland, although
claration was that the benefit of the Crow° „, thsks Wo -
principal and only aim. Dean Swift had gi,"io,/i3O
the character of one of the Lords-Lieutenaooo,
days of Queen Anne—he meant Lord OW.- °B-ei
was said to have ruined one country, and theattesrsda
to ruin another. The father of the Hon. sa"asfettl-sd
Gentleman opposite had himself described the eo
of Buckingham, who made his entry into pub
in a triumphal car, drawn by public creduliti:
lacious hopes and loud-mouthed professions"-oetoo4
with two faces—one side turned to the TreasurY' ova,
other to the people—a double-tongued Minister, err 17si,
contradictory lab rage. That was in the Yeeijerdsso.,
Again, he would take the description of a 0)0,13$ P° 01
tater in 1805—a friend, he believed, of the sb'svairita,•
Gentleman the Member for Dublin. At a, renee-Kil
the Linen Hall Ward he denounced the Castle 00'0
as a sink of corruption and a hot-bed of iniquity) Oleo
it was removed from Ireland, Orangemen 513' 01°, I
Catholics, Whigs and Tories, would see the follfdof
ways, and unite in promoting the common ge, Ott,
country, Now, although the Hon. Member a
had spoken of the nationality of the office of 11",ettOaed
tenant, he begged to say that Lord Townsheal reOl'se
only Lord-Lieutenant out of twenty who bil:to lob
there in the course of two centuries, and he 'swig 1110
debt of 220,0001. to the Irish people. Deana- veeto
marked that, so far from their having a Itirlbi °ono!
voifceroys that were sent to them were absent e",s° "00
their time. He hoped, after these sta.teraei oi
the twaddle of the Lord-Lieutenancy beingl,:cleve 0
institution would no longer take place, and
nartu'll'raeceste
the clap-traps submitted to that House. "„-eeple'
Lord-Lieutenant attempted to conciliate the Ire,ssffi'eo
was accused of neglecting the interests of the '1: moths
was on these grounds that Sir John Perrot Was used
in 1795. Lord Fitzwilliam was recalled s'orsel roe
wanted to emancipate the Roman Catholics. hi the
Lord Normanby denounced? He was ostrac°,;aoiseeiel
Protestant nobility because he presumed to reae-reoe're
existence of the Roman Catholic people. In wgin-0011910.
the conduct of the sovereign was never Poo.- ooi 00
(erred to, and his acts were considered as tbeireelslirati'
ministers, who were held responsible • but l° pied to
Lord-Lieutenant was the tenant of a gildreeds-
ea P
who was pelted by all parties, and if he star ICol,
be impartial he was denounced as a trsi.."•sotiteept
Take the case of a Tory 1-0314-1# efril
His. arrival was hailed with rejoicing be ell of
party, and the Orange flag was hoisted on Lbeesmo.
steeples; all the tradespeople were change"he tralo.ed'
in Ireland it should be observed that t-the si
people were not selected with reference to ir o° bed
ness of their wares, but for the tendency of the Abel glee
they might be always sure that the tee:31,0017,70:
" Tradesman to his Excellency" over his elo°'essed"'"ool/
a vote in a particular way. When a Whig ri-d- if
tenant went over there was a total chanue;teeeter
gave a place to a Roman Catholic assistouq-oa'-as dee" OS
was immediately a howl that the Church vole tootle' tor
—(A laugh.) But if he went further, and e/t" egit° fel
nular 0,
usual civilities of the Castle to a great P°up►
of the day, he was anathematised in th°,e,.ll) eeele• r
scandalised in the boudoirs.—(Great laugu"-tito P-rest
he himself had heard Lord Normanby likened the gr
id
chadnezzar from the pulpit, because he aal‘„e AO
man of the day—Mr. O'Connell—to o'sl, Ole;
the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Coren thee, isve
return, not to his free-trade principles, but 100"0
pularity of his opponent, Mr. MacarthY, :vi atati°,,ett
election because he was open to the grave Ifiear,l)-pre
having dined with the Lord-Lieutenant.---(ed in ale
and laughter.) Why, no man who bad not It/ rayeteta;
lin could be aware of the manner in which tellsestigilet •
of the Lord-Lieutenant was scrutinised sous-disletesDe
He was in as bad a case as the unpopular candidate
jeoriboset
Westminster election. There was the case eoe 00
tor! to. lie,
Grey, than whom there was not
isioee
~00
or charitable man. He sent some prov y ble
poor of the different charitable institutions l'atte 010,
and it was said in the papers that all be
of beef and
he was called " the shin-of bee., not „old
tenant."—(Great laughter.) Why. they dluxtrocycleg
son ctr:ord'i)oie.
spare the ladies, and he held in his hand an ;t.retre the
hers th°
ball ut the Castle. The Hon. Gentleman t
sa et pie
the Dublin Evening Mail in reference to the row 0
extract, which denounced the conduct pursw pot to
festivities) and observed that if they were In wall pc
they might expect to see the announc!ol'ierovisiefted
Chamberlain's Office "stretchers will b° ove"
the accommodation of the ladies."—(Hears en' Wit pet
Fie read that, not for the purpose of sharTaeloodows
insinuations of the hireling writer, but h
tietio co of.
show the lengths faction would go tatlaba" ybei
and the little respect it had for an Oee v