The Sun.
London, England, 1850-02-27 00:00:00

of her Majesty's Government should rise and state
what view he rook of the motion of the Hoe. Member
for Oldh2.re, he did not hesitate to say that he hoped
the House would not refuse permis-ion to the
Honourable Gentleman to bring in his Bill.—(Hear.)
Ile thought that no one could doubt, in the
first place, the irnporzance of the subject, and, in the
next place, no one could soy that rteincation was in such
a state in England that no further measures were re-
quired up,n the subject; that there wets not much to be
lamented in the present deficiency of the means of edn
cation; that there was not much which good men de-
plored, even in the education which was given; and
that there was not yet more to be deplored in the ab-
sence of education among the great mass of our people,
whose instruction, and still more, whose training in re-
ligion and morality, deeply concerned the welf ire of the
whole community. If that were the case, the only other
question that remained was, wh, they the Hon. Member
for Oldham had approached that subject in a fitting
spirit—(llear, hear)—whether he had been deeply im-
pressed with the importance of the task he had under-
taken, and whether the object he had in view was to
provide for the hitter education, riot of one portion, n, t
f one sect, but of all cusses of the people in this em-
pire.--(Hear.) thought every one should acknow-
ledge that th. spirit in which the Hon. Gentleman had
approeci,ed that question was one worthy of the sub-
ject—(Hear, hear)—that he had stated full and ably
the rre,eat deficiency :if education, that he seemed
clearly to perceive in what that deficiency con-
sisted, and that whatever might be the merits of his
proposal, his inclination was to produce a plan which
should not excite jarring contentions, but should rather
tend to unite the various opinions prevailing upon that
subject.—(Hear, hear.) If that were the case, he said,
there was good cause to induce the House to agree to
the request of the Hon. Gentleman that he should lay
that Bill on the table of the House. As to the further
questions, what were the difficulties which surrounded
the subject, and whether the plat' proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman would overcome those difficulties, what was
the manner in which the plan proposed by the Hon.
Gentleman might be viewed by the public and by those
who were at present engaged in the promotion of educa-
tion, and whose services in that cause the House was
bound to honour, those were questions on which he
thought it better not to attempt to express upon that
occasion any imperfect views, which would not, perhaps,
be correctly founded on the measure which the Hop.
xlember recent to introduce. He, therefore, altogether
declined to give any opinion at that moment with respect
to the plan proposed by the Hon. Gentleman. That, he
thought, was afar bettercourse, than that he should either
commend that plan prematurely, or make to it objec-
tions which, after all, could not, perhaps, be founded
on the merits of the case itself. This only he would
say, that he thought that, perhaps, of the whole state-
ment of the Hon. Gentleman the part in which he most
doubted the accuracy of the allegations was that in
which be had alluded to the failure of the efforts made
for the improvement of popular education of late years.
His (Lord J. Russell's) impression rather was that al-
though the great efforts which it had been proposed
that they should have made three or four years ago had
not led to as large an extension of education as they
bad anticipated, yet it had been attended with a con-
siderable addition of its blessings. Whether there was
a failure at present in the desire and the means of carry-
ing eti education, that again would be a matter for sub-
sequent discussion. All he should then venture further
to say was that he thanked the lion. Gentleman for the
spirit in which he had brought that subject under their
notice.—(Hear, hear.) Frequently as he had been dis-
appointed in discussing that question, he could not but
hope that, whether or net the plan of the Hon. Gentle-
man should be adopted in the shape in which he had
proposed it, such a plan of general education discussed
with temper in that House might tend to advance that
great cause in which society was deeply interested, and
he should certainly cordially concur in giving his assent
to the introduction of the Bill.
Sir B. H. INGLIS said he willingly admitted the
temper and theability:with which the Hon. Member for
Oldham had introduced the subject. But at the same
time he could not coincide in the principles on which the
plan of the Hon. Gentleman rested, or in the objects at
which he aimed. The Hon. Gentleman had said that
the question no longer was, whether it was or it was not
good that education should be diffused. But the point on
which he (Sir H. H. Inglis) was at issue with the Hon.
Gentlernau was as to what was education. According
to the Hon. Gentleman it appeared to be the instruc-
tion of a man in those branches of learning which
terminated with man in this world—(Hear, hear)—and
the omission of every consideration of the eternal
destinies of man, for which this world and all its
concerns wore but a most fleeting preparation. The
Honourable Gentleman had said that the education
of the people was less advanced in this country
than in Prussia, in Saxony, or in other continental
countries. Bat he (Sir R. H. Inglis) thanked Heaven
that the peeple of England were sufficiently educated to
have saved us from the excitement which prevailed a
few years ago in Prussia.—(A cry of " Oh" from Mr.
B. Osborne.) '1 he Hon. Member for Middlesex cried
" Oh," but he (Sir H. H. Inglis) believed that the Hon.
Member had reason, in common with the rest of the
people of this country, to thank Heaven for the charac-
ter displayed by its inhabitants on the 10th of April,
1848; and the people who had displayed that character
must, he felt persuaded, in some way or another, have re-
ceived the advantages of a good education. He would
not on the present occasion enter into questions of detail.
He wished the House to bear in mind that they were
asked to give their assent to a Bill which proceeded upon
the supposition that a system of secular education was
desirable for the people of this country. The Hon. Mem-
ber admitted that he did not wish to interfere with any
existing system of religious education, but wished the
education provided by the State to be secular or temporal.
He admitted, nevertheless, that religious education was
the greatest boon a child could receive—(Hear, hear)—
and then to show how his arguments and his facts
might be retorted on themselves, went on to say that
notwithstanding this great boon he could not but admit
the practical conclusion to be a great increase of crime.
[Mr. Fox intirnat,d dissent.] Did he misrepresent the
Hon. Member? He stated as the result of the reports of
the different gaolers and inspectors of prisons, and in•
spectors of schools, that religious acquirements wero no
evidence of morality.
Mr. FOX said his position was that you could not give
real religious instruction unless you bestowed on the
mind so much of other knowledge as rendered it a fitting
soil to receive the germ.
Sir H. H. INGLIS was willing to take the position as
the Hon. Member had now put it, and could confidently
refer to those schools in which a religious education
was given, and ask whether secular education was seen
there coincident and in juxta-position? The Hon. Mem-
appeared to think that in those schools where religion
was taught nothing else was taught. Now, though he
never would consent to admit that anything could be
put in competition with that which was destined to fit a
child for eternity, yet he asserted that at that moment,
in the greater part of the schools to which he had re-
ferred, and with which he was acquainted, as large a
proportion of secular education was afforded as
would be found in any other schools. This was a
question of fact upon which he could only state his own
personal conviction and belief. However, as there ap-
peared tofie no intention to divide the House, he would
merely recur to a proposition to which he had ventured
to call the attention of the Government some time ago
—namely, that they should make up their minds as to
what encouragement they would give to lay members of
the House of Commons, to amateur Members, in bring-
ing in these Bills. Let no man feel himself aggrieved if
the Government, on the first movement of any subject,
should say at once, " This subject is good, and we ought
to take it up; and this is bad, and neither you nor any-
body else ought to take it up." The time of the House
would be greatly economised if the Government would
thus interfere with the discretion of private Members.
Ile did not mean to say that this subject was one on
which the deliberate consideration of the House would be
unwisely exercised, and he, therefore, would not refuse
permission to the Hon. Member to lay his statement for-
mally in th© shape of a Bill before the House. But he
earnestly hoped that ultimately the House would not as-
sent to any measure which proposed to give the reci-
pients of education a system which terminated with this
world, leaving them to acquire from their fathers and
mothers—whose ignorance he had admitted—that know-
ledge on which their ultimate happiness depended.
Mr. M. MILNES agreed with the Noble Lord at the
head of the Government in thinking that it would be
better to postpone the discussion of the question till the
second reading of the Bill, and would nor, therefore, re-
ply to the arguments of the Right Hon. Baronet who had
just sat down. All that would be admitted by allowing
the Bill to be brought in would be that religious and
secular education rested on different grounds. The ore
was capable of advancement and encouragement, and the
other nut, and therefore the State might legitimately
interfere in the one, though not in the other.
Mr. HUME applauded the course pursued by the Hon.
Member for Oldham, who, to prove the inadequacy of
the present system, had not depended on his own know-
ledge, but had referred to the most able and independent
authorities. He denied that his Hon. Friend had advo-
cated a system of secular education alone. The Hon.
Baronet had asked what was education? He had always
considered it to be that mental training which fitted a
man to be a good member of society. and a good life led
to religion. Neither had his Hon. Friend proposed any
system of State education, but merely that property
should be made locally available to supply the deficiency
which existed in the education of the people. He
hoped that all would co-operate in so modelling the Bill
as to secure a general scheme of education for the coun-
try at large.
Mr. PLUMPTRE had understood the Hon. Member
for Oldham to state that the deficiency of education was
so great in this country that not above one child in
thirteen of the rising generation enjoyed its advantages.
Whether he had rightly collected the words of the Hon.
Member or not, he evidently thought the education of
the people at the present time very deficient. The
Hon. Member very liberally stated that it was not his
intention to interfere with schools already established,
whether in connexion with the Church or otherwise;
but his intentions were prospective; he merely wished
re fill up the gaps. He wanted, however, to know from
the lion. Member what plan he proposed to introduce
into his new schools. If he understood him rightly, his
schools were to be open to the children of persons of all
denominations, but there was to be no religious instruc-
tion whatever, and the children were to he left to such
instruction as they could get from their parents or others.
The population of the districts in which these schools
were to be raised up, however, the Hon. Member pro-
posed to tax 4id. or 6d. in the pound.—(No, no.) All
he could say wits, that if such wore the plan which the
Hon. Member proposed for the education of the great
mass of the rising population, he for one most solemnly
and religiously protested against it.
Mr. B. OSBORNE quite agreed with the Noble
Lord in thinking that the most judicious course would
be not to enter into details on the present occasion.
In faot the way in which the details had been mieuuder.