The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-02 00:00:00

IRISH TRIALS..

Mr. DUNCOMBE asked if there would be any
objection to lay before the House the short-hand
writers' notes of the Irish State trials ?

Sir R. PEEL—None. •
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Sir R. PEEL said, that his Noble Friend had
given notice of his intention to move the Irish Regis-
gation Bill before the Orders of the Day. That
course had been pursued, because the Government
had thought that it was the general wish of the
House to have that measure explained at an early
period; but, although it was a Government night,
he had no wish to take precedence, and his Noble
Friend would not proceed unless with the wish of
the House.—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to know if it was in-
tended to take the Orders of the Day after the Noble
Lord's motion? •
Sir R. PEEL—Yes..
IRISH REGISTRATION.

Lord ELIOT rose for the purpose of moving that
leave be given to bring in a Bill for .amending the
law relating to the--registration of voters for Members
of Parliament in Ireland. The subject to which he
was about to call the attention of the House had often
been discussed within those walls, and it would not
be necessary for him to. preface the -explanation-
he - was, about to give of the main provisions
of the Bill by any lengthened eipOsition of the
defects in the existing law. These defects were—the
power - of challenging the rights of. voter to remain
on the list, the multiplicity of objections, the facility
of Personation, and a variety of other defects which
had been acknowledged by almost every other Mem-
ber of that,House who had taken a part in the dis-
cussion on this question. Various proposals had
been made • by gent'emen on both sides of the House
with a view of applying a remedy to those defects,
and those proposals had given rise to discussions
which had occasionally been of an acrimonious
nature. On the present occasion, however, he wished
this question to be discussed solely on its own merits;
with-a-view Securing a satisfactory adjustment of
its difficulties. .He should not, therefore, refer to
those discussions, or, if he did, it would not be in a
tone or manner calculated ;to excite angry feelings.
A. proposal to amend the law'of registration in Ireland
was made during the existence of the late. Gover-
nment ; but it was resisted by that Government on the
ground that the existing system had prevailed for
many years, and that it was unadvisable to alter it.
But, at the same time, Lord Althorp distinctly de-
clared that if time and experience should prove
that the system of registration which had been
introduced into England was well adapted for its
pnrpose, and was an efficient system, it would be ad-
visable to extend that system to Ireland. He (Lord
Eliot) thought there could be no doubt that the sys-
tem of registration in England did give general and
great satisfaction. The defects in it, which experience
during the last ten years had.'pointed out, were re-
moved by the Act of, last session, and he believed the
measure, as it stood, was not only adapted to its pur-
pose as a.eystem of registration for England, but that
if it were transplanted to Ireland, mutatis mutandis, it
would be a great improvement on the system that
prevailed in that country. It was this system,
therefore, which her Majesty's Government proposed
to that House for introduction into Ireland.. The
measure proposed to give to the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland in Council, the power of dividing counties
into polling districts ; in each polling place of which
district the revising barrister should hold an annual
court of revision and registration. It was pro-
posed to reserve to the assistant barrister ap•
pointed to preside in the Court of Quarter Ses-
sions, and who at present, also presided in the
registration courts, the
_duty of the revising bar-
rister. They were in general men perfectly competent
to perform their duties in a manner satisfactory to
the counties in - whiCh - they were statipried,
and there, Were no grounds for creating any new
officers to preside in the registration , courts.
His next point referred to the right of appeal. An
appeal was allowed in England as to the law,-though
not upon-the facts of the case,
,and it was vested ip
the Court of Common Pleas. They did not propose
to give this appeal in Ireland to the Court of Comnion
Pleas, but' to the Court of Exchequer Chamber. The
duties of the several law courts in Ireland were very
'heavy and multifarious,' and for this reason, chiefly,
they proposed to -
vest the new power in the Ex-
'chequer Chamber, because all the judges belonged
'to that court, and the questions that would be brought
for decision- would always have the consideration of a
,majOrity of them, namely, seven. He did not wish
then 'to go into the reasons why the Court of Com-
:mon Pleas should not be preferred in Ireland as it
'was in England, but he might say that in giving it to
all the judges they
pursued a course which they con-
sidered most likely to give general satisfaction:
There were only one or two minor differences be
tween the English and the Irish system, which he
thought it necessary to allude to. The duty of com-
paring the lists was in England confided to the over-
seer—in Ireland they proposed. to confide it to the
baronial collector. In England the town-clerks, ex-
ercising their duties as clerks of the peace, had the
custody of the lists, and they proposed that the
clerk of the peace should have the custody Of them in
Ireland. With regard to the time of polling, there
would not be any material difference, for they pro.:
posed to limit its duration to one day for boroughs,
and to two days for counties.—(Loud cries of
" Hear, hear.") He believed this portion of
the measure would meet with a very gene-
ral assent, correcting, as it would do, many
great abuses that now took place, and curtailing the
very unnecessary expenses which now so frequently
took place. He would now state what it was pro-
posed to do with the existing registers. Ile proposed
that all persons now on the register should be replaced
on the new register, and should not-be liable to chal-
lenge Thlifing the- remainder of the term for which
the present register would have lasted, except where
he had parted with any portion -of his, property.
He was aware that there might be some objections
made to that. It might be said, and with truth, that
there were improper votes upon the register, and that
the revising barristers ought to be enabled to purge
the register of sucli votes as were, he would not say
fraudulently,, but improperly placed there. Un.
the contrary,
he (Lord Eliot) thought it was better
that a -feW improper votes should remain on the
register than that persons having a bona fide claim
8.4011,1 d be exposed to vexatious process 'of Challenge ;
and thus'ho now proposed' that these parties should
hoV be liable to challenge for the remainder Of the
term of eight years, which the law now allowed them
they would have
to-reenlin on the register. At the end of that time
a right to be entered in the register,
liable :under the same rules as other claimants, and
liable to any' g-round of objection which might be
urged against them., -He also proposed by this Bill to
give--double costs in cases of friveleus objections and
unsupported claims. These were the principal provisions
of the Bill with respect to registrfaion and polling, and if
there were any provisions of this part of the Bill to which
he had 'not adverted, he' was ready to give an answer
to any gentleman who might seek further information
upon it. He would. next proceed to the third; and
most important, and most difficult branch of this
subject—he meant the qualification of voters. .The
House was well aware that the question of the-fran,
chile was in a most unsatisfactory state. In the 'year.
1829,,when by the 10th of George IV. the right of
:Voting from 40s. freeholds was abolished, there
were in Ireland, if he were„, not - mistaken;
216,000' electors. ale certainly djd not propose
at that moment to enter into the merits of that--qttes-
tien, )int he believed that, with a few exceptions, the
abuses of that system were
so generally recognised,
that the :propriety of its abolition was very generally
'concurred in, and he thought the effect of ,the measure
,I:44l4p'to,give a gooi example. In the year 1829,
•ftgriile:. :bad. already said, there, were in Ireland
`216,040 electors; but it was worthy of observation,
that out: of those there. were 102,000 registered for
AtiVOnnties. At the present moment the actual
eConatiiuencyof the county.
Kildare Was' "larger
the year 1829, and in the county of Wiekrow
' , .ht the constituency was rather- larger _than;
Itflidresent time, whilst in some other counties the
numbers were nearly the same at the:piesent tiEnt•tis;

they were-in 1829. -He merely mentioned Ark because
he thought the affect of the Act of 1829 had been a
good deal exaggerated. In the following year the
number of electors was 39,700, and the effect of the

Reform Bill, in the following year, was to increase the

number of 'the electors fiom 52,000 to 60,Q00.

The number was 64,000 in 1835 ; 76,000 in 1837 ;
57,000 in 1841 ; and 63,000 in 1842. From the
time of. the,Reforea Bill down to the present period
11,000 had' been added to the constituency of Ireland.
The addition was made in this case by words: In the
Reform Bill the words were "the clear value to him,"
that was to the occupant, this being supposed 'to
define more clearly,. not the value of the , -estate
itself, but the interest which the owner
or occupier had: • Those words' Were
expunged in the House of Lords,
.and the then Go-_
vernment did not think.'it expedient to-insert them in
the Irish Bill.- The Right Hon. Gentleman, the
.pre-
.sent Chancellor of Ireland, objectedta the admission
of theee words, and said- that considerable doubt' and
uncertainty. would arise frOM their insertion. .He.
believed that the Learned Gentleman, 'Mr. LefrOy,
proposed as a means of- obviating the' difficulty, the
•
insertion . of the 7words • "- beneficial interest."
Those words -were introduced, certainly with 'no
intention • on . the part - of the .proposer • of -them,
in any way to decrease the franchise ; and .he (Lord
Eliot) had not beet' able to discover that her Ma-
jesty's then .Government entertained any such design.
It was elearlyand explicitly stated. by a Noble Duke
in the other House (the Duke of Richmond), that it
was not the-intention. of the GovernMent to raise the
qualification ; and- he believed that no such intention
ever existed. It was perfectly true that the Act,
the 10th of . George the Fourth, did impose
an oath 'commonly called . " the solvent tenant
.oath," by. which it was provided that the land
should. be capable. of being. let for the specified
amount to a solvent tenant.. That oath was omitted
in the Reform In the 19th of, George 11. the
same oath•was impoied-upon freeholders ; by the 13th
of
,George. 111. that . oath was oinitted; but he be-
lieved ~ it, was, never contended, either in
Ireland or England, that a clear, beneficial value—
that is, a_ surplus after the payment 'of rent and ether
expenses—was invariably necessary., It was clearly
defined ..that clear. yearly 'value meant the"value for
which the tenement. might be 'let to a solvent tenant.
That was the interpretation recognised by the courts,
but he knew doubts existed upon the point in the
Englieh.cotirts ; but the insertion of the words "be-
neficial interest," and their omission from the, oath,
gave rise different :interpretation Of the' law in
Irelend,,and the assistant barristers., and some Of the
judges held that the proper interpretation to be put
on the clause was what the estate might be worth to
the occupier. The-question was argued in the, Court
of Exchequer Chamber, -in 1837, on a case which
was- tried . before Chief 'Justice Bushe, and
in that ease was laid down, not only that
the • : solvent tenant _test , was the properinter-
pretation, bat that, the solvent tenant oath. was the
oath to be. administered to the jury. Two of the
judges held that the solvent tenant test was no longer
applicable, and three of them held it was applicable,
but that no oath was to beadministered, and- the re-
mainder of the judges:decided. that the bath was pro-
perltadtninistered, and that the solvent tenant test
should remain in force. The _minority. of the judges
and !several of the assistant-barristers-declined to be
bound by the-ophaien of Mejerity,. and this was one
great cause of: uncertainty'. It vas therefore right
that Paelianient should put an end to the doubt, and
that the question of value should be' defined by legis-
latien.(Hear,' hear.) 'Looking, then, to the deci-
sions of the tnajority of the judges, and the inten-
tions of the Legislature, and to the practice in England
and Scotland, and to the established Constitution,
which required .a 'bona, fide property arising out of
land be' determined to. render the Irish law conforma-
ble toihelaw. of Englandand.Seotland. and-to require
that' there..should.bo a .clear yearly value over and
above all' rents and charges. It might be
said that this:' object.: could. .be attained
in. a -More simple manner.', In 1841 -the Noble
Lord,' the :Mat-Wier. for Sunderland-whom he and
many of those who sat behind him felt bound' to .
sup-
port, made,a.proposttion which distinctly recognised the
principle:of-property arising-out-of land.. -The Noble
Lord proposed to take the rating under the, poor-law
valuation, but the reports which he had received on
the subject convinced him that this proposition would
be in a great measure illusory. He had.rebeived
the rentals of several gentlemen's property,
on which he placed. the 'greatest. confidence.
Bitt if gentlemen were not satisfied' With his statement
of the confidence which he reposed in these com-
munications, :they were not bound to express any
opinion Upon them." All the communications which
he had received from every part of Ireland—noith,
son* eait,arid west—with-. Sew 'exceptions, satisfied
him that if they-were to fixon any . rate ,below da,
if 0n1y..51., they would thereby-expunge from the regis-
tration list a larger portion of the present constituency
than they wouldxpunge by the introduction of the
solvent tenant test. Besides, he did not think- it-
would be fit,, or even becoming, on the part of her
Majesty's Government, to depart, from .the ancient
principles of the franchise in Ireland and Scotland,
unless,some large and practical good. was to follow.
—(Hear; hear.) He now admitted, without the
least hesitation or, reserve, that the :effect of the ap-
plication of the solvent tenant test so stringently as
he proposed, would be to deprive of their votes a very
considerable number, Una of the present constituency,
certainly of the 101. occupants. It *Mild be impos-
sible for him to say, precisely what the effect would
be, hut,'according to thedata whiCh..he had been able
to. collect,. he .was to admit that it was very
possible that tWo-thieds el the etisting occupants
(101. leaSeholderS and freeholders)—he again observed -
not constituency---would .be disfranchised. He . be=
lieVOthitt cIaSS of oceupatitS amounted to about 40,000,
and it was obvious that.oneethircl of the numberwhick
would' remain on :the , registry -under the solvent
tenant test were not. eedequate ,to express. the..
opinions and feelings of the portion of the people
whOth they Were intended to 'represent. It Was, de,
cl4red by the Noble Lord, at theheginning of the
session, during the ,debateupexi the, state of Ireland,
that it was .expedient to givee :if 'not an identiatal,'at
least.a substantial equality in the. franchise to Ireland
with the people ef,this .country.--(Hear, hear.) In
Making, then; so- large ,a. reduction of the, consti-
tee,ney As the new test would effect, it was necessary
to .seek for some compensation,, for it must 'be
admitted that the restricted number would, be inade-
quate- to expresa the' wants rind wishes of the com-
munity, for whose behalf the franchise Was entrusted
to theta. Her Majesty's Minister§ thought it desir-
able that there should be a community, of interests and
feelings between the constituent body 'and those for
whom the franchise .wae entrusted to them. her
Majesty's Ministets, therefore, thought it expedient
td seek.for .n, ee6stitueney amongst a class of persons_
who, byttheir independent position,:would be enabled
to give unbiassed and unprejudiced votes, and who were
not tee far removed from the body of. the inhabitants
of the eleCtoral. district.' He conceived . that, if the
franchise were made-to depend merely upon the money
amount/a rent, it,would.be attended .amongst many
inconveniences au4' uncertainties, with 'a pracUe of
collusion- on the Part of. the 'landlord, and to, give him
an indUceneent • to raise the
,nominal amount Of
rente Be., thought, : therefore, they • should, seek
a ' test less : -liable :' to misapprehension.. The
Gcivernineut proposed.. that , all occupiers, . no mat-
ter .;what. their tenure—that all occupiers . who
wererated. to. the :relief of the
.poor in .a -certain
amount—should have the benefit of the franchise.
.Then the ,questioii.WiS, what should -be the amount of
that rating—what, looking at the ainoilnt 'hoifi'of the
population, the rental; and the property of the coun-
try, would be sufficient for the,parpOse, and yet high
enough to secure the independence of
.the voter.
The inquiries of her Majesty's, Government had led to
the belief that a man rated to the relief of the poor in
the sunrof aol. ayear would probably
,be possessed of
sufficient capital torender him an independent person.'
It . appeared that :there were in 'lreland ..76,0013
tenements rated to the poor which were rated in that
arnottnt.,,.. Certain deductions must be made for that
number on-account of, tenements held by. widows and
minors, ao.-Of Persons-holding under other qtrilifice-
tions. Deducting one-seventh for the first class, and
another seventh'from the other, they might assume
that 25,009 would be the addition to the constituency
under the new qualification. Assuming that 25,000.
should he placed on the register under the, new fran-
chise, there would be an addition of 30,000 to the
county constituency of Ireland. But her Majesty's Go-,
vernment feeling that one of the links ef. the social
chain in Irelend-was wanting from the total absence
of that class represented' by the yeomen or small in-
dependent proprietors of England, would encourage
the ;creation: of, such, a class of voters by the addi-
tional inducement of giving them the franchise. He
proposed,,therefore, thatall persons possessing a free-
hold'inheritanee • of Si. clear yearly value above all
quit rents, or possessed of a lease on lives, renewable
for ever, so as to be equal to .a freehold inheritance,
should hereafter have a vote. This, he hoped,
would have the effect of inducing persons to invest
their capital in the purchase of small freeholds.
That would .give a more independent class of 'votes,
and it was but juet, that such a class .of -men should
be invested with the elective- franchise. He was not
prepared to say that the effect-at present to be pro-
duced would be considerable, but 'the ultimate .effect
would -be very beneficial, and he believedthat in
many. parts of Ireland.perpetual leases—that was,
leases ,renewable for ever—Were by no means uncom-
mon. 'He believed that the measure would have the
effect Of: adding considerably to the number , of
respectable voters in . the Irish counties. There was 1
one other alteration, which he proposed to make
in the existing lew' .and, that was, that it was not
intended that either freeholders orieltetitalilP lease-
holderiehould be respired to be in actual occupation.
This would be of great assistance to small capitalists in :!
acquiring Vote. ln-'England' 101. -freeholders were I
_:.!i

not required to be in occupation of the property for
which they voted, and it was intended to assimilate
the law of Ireland to the law of England in that re-
spect. They intended to dispense with occupation in
all cases of freeholds exceeding 10/. in value. Before
the passing of the Reform Act occupation was not
required. in England for 40s. freeholders. Since the
passing of the Act, however, occupation had been re-
quired in all cases of freeholds under the value of 101.
These were all -the alterations that laeproposed intro-
ducing in the nualification of county' voters. He
would now call the attention Of the House to the al-
terations which he proposed to introduce in the guar.-
ficatien of voters for towns under the Reform Act in
England. All that was required of a voter was the
payment of two assessments—namely, the assessed
taxes and the poor-rates ; but it should be borne in
mind that under the comprehensive term " poor..
rates," what was called in Ireland county cess
was also paid, inasmuch as under, the denomination.
" poor-rates" the borough voter in England paid
not only the rate for the relief of the poor, but also a
large portion of the county rate. ' In England, there-
fore, it was necessary that the voter before he
Could exercise the franchise must pay a much larger
sum as poor-rates than he, would be liable to in Ireland.
For a ten-pound house in many of the larger boroughs
in England, taking assessed taxes, and the various
sums falling under the term of poor-rates, there
would be about three shillings in the pound to pay
before a title to -vote was made out. In Ireland,
under the Reform Act, there were county rates, muni-
cipal rates, and cesses to pay.' The consequence
was, that to make out your title to vote, it
was necessary to pay a considerable number of taxes,
some of great magnitude, and others annoying,
rather from their number than their large individual
amount. This it was desirable to simplify.' He
proposed, then, as a substitute for the assessed
taxes, to require,payment of the town rate for paving,
lighting,' and watching ; of the poor-rate ;' of the-bo-
rough rate;- and of the police rate. His' object was
to make the. right of franchise correspond as
nearly as.possible to that' of the ' correspond-
ing elm's' of voters in England. Though
all his statements were :founded on facts,
Which could be verified by documents then before
him, he had not read extracts from those docu-
ments, not wishing, in this stage of the measure,
needlessly to trouble the House. Were the accu
racy however of any of his 'statements doubted, he
trusted such doubt would be expressed, that
he might- at once give evidence Of their truth.
One 'of the great objects the Government had in
view was, to relieve the voter" from the multiplicity
of -claims he was called upon to satisfy—the vexation
attendadt upon which was greater than the aggre-
gate money amount of them. 'He was sure it was not
his own intention, nor the intention of the House, to
deprive any man of his vote, but rather to
simplify the' proper •means for
.thQacquisitiou of it.
All that ought to be required was .a fair guarantee of
the ',solvency ,of the party claiMing a vote, and his
fulfilment, after a clear and 'simple form, of the con-
ditionS attached to the right. He was not
aware, there were any other • points it was
necessary for him then to touch upon.
He believed that the proposition, if adopted, would
place the electoral franchise of Ireland Upon a wider
and more extended basis'; and' though that basis was
not 'upon the same principle as'the franchise of Eng-
land, still he believed that it "would be found to 'be
more extended than it was either in England or•Seot-
land. He earnestly hoped that the great body of the
Irish nation Would see that the proposal of that
measure by the Government was a redemption
of the pledge given by his Right Hon. Friend at-the
head of her Majesty's Government in the speech to
which he (Lord Eliot) -had referred, and that they
would see in the adoption of it by the Imperial Par-
liament an :earnest desire to impart to the people of
Ireland the enjoyment of equal rights and equal:fran-
chises :with the people of this country. And he
trusted that those to whom those powers were, now
entrusted for the, first time, would bear in mind that
they were vso intrusted, not for any advantage 'to
themselves alone---not for the advantage merely of
the district in which they resided, 'or even of their own
country, but that they were given for the good, of
the wholeof thig great and still united empire.
Mr. HUMS -asked what would be the addition to
the'nuthbelfof voters by this Bill? _ • •

. _
Lord
.LIOT said that the Bill. proposed to-relieve
voters of certaiu taxes and burdens, but that
it. would, be • impossible for any gentleman to
hazard a • correct = :opinion • as to the 'in;
crease of numbers, it.•• might cause. ~ It was
his intention to lay the 13111 on the -table tog
morrow, and it would be then printed, and thus Hon.
Gentlemen- would have, ample time to'. consider. its
pfeiiSions. It was suggested to him, now, that instead
of rising again, he should. explain at once 'the nature
of -the alterations-proposed to be made in the Militia
Opal Corporations Bill. The Hodse was aware that
svhett that measure passed through that House, the
tssimilation-Of the municipal franchise of Ireland with
hat England was impossible. The municipal
franchise of EnglaruU was based on the occupation
of a house for a given time, and on the payment
of. rates -for the same --period4 Now as . the
poor-law.valuation had not been-a: sufficient time in
force in Ireland when the Municipal Corporation Bill
became the law, it was impossible to place the muni-
cipal franchise of Ireland upon thathasis. It was now
,
proposed to remove any cause' of complaint which
might arise at the difference which existed-between
the municipal franchise of Ireland and' that of
England; 'by assimilating theM 'as, far as' pos-
isible; believed; that -in all the' great cities,
towns, and boroughs- of Ireland, with 'the exception
a Wexford, which: wanted'a few-months of the ne-
cessary time; that in all`,those large. towns the
poor-law had been in.operation a sufficient time to
act as a test ' sitnilar. to that,which it .reqUired.
It was therefore propoSed to extend- to Ireland the
provisions of the Municipal Registration
.Bill of
.England in'that respect, and to give to every. inhabi-
tant .householder who, should have occupied,'for the
space of three years, and who, during that time, had
heen rated 'for the relief of the poor, and who had
Paid- his rates-and. taxes. up to that time—it, was
proposed. to. give. to , him the right of. voting.
He .did not • , wish . now to' revert . to the
discusSion 'on , the, corporations Bill. . No man could
regret more: than he did what he must describe, as a
perversion` of the pavvers 'which Parliament had given.
He regretted that the municipaLcorporations should
haVebecorne'normal schools of agitation •'lie thought
it would hive been much better if they had confined
themselves to their own peculiar duties.. But, however
he might regret this, he could not 'divest himself of thb
conviction that every man in a town who contributed,
by the payment of rates and taxes to the maintenance
of that farm, was 'entitled to a vote in the adininistra-
lion of its,local affairs ; and he did hope and trust that
after the tempararY. effervescence
,which
„now existed
in Ireland ',should: :have . subsided, all .parties 'con-
nected with , municipal corporations would turn
their attention to their own local affairs, and
reserve the expression.of their political opinions 'for a
more fitting opportunity.—(Hear,'hear.) The House
were aware that -the: ,grand jury, municipal, and
poor's:rateswere at present payable as a. condition
attached to -the municipal franchise. He believed
that,
.in Dublin; there were not 'less than one or
two and. twenty of these local taxes.—(llear, hear.)
He did:not Mean that,. every man was liable to the
payment of these local taxes, but that these .taxes
were payable_ in certain districts; and ,he believed
that someindividuals in ,Dublin-were actually liable
to the,payment of fourteen, fifteen,' or sixteen local
taxes, the non-payment of any. one of which would
deprive' them of the right
~of voting 'at a mu-
nicipal election. " It , ~vaS proposed to make
the payment ' of taxes- = , in this respect cor-
respond with the payment which entitled a- person
to exercise the Parliamentary franchise. Ile was not
aware that there wag any other point to which it was
neeessary, to call the 'attention of the house. That
Was the only provision of any importance which
this -Bill
,contained. 'Thanking the IJou,se for the
attention.with which they had listened tO hi.S. state-,
went, he begged fel:leave to bring in the Bill.
The question Shaving been put,
Lord ELIOT Said there was one point of some im-
portance which he had omitted, and perhaps the House
would allow him to.supply the omission. It was pro-
posed to introduce into the Irish law a provision
with regard to joint occupation, which would place it
on the same. footing. there as in. this country.
Mr. M. OTERRALL, said that the Noble*Lord,
though he had conceded every principle against which
his party; had oNce :contended, had•yet fallen far short
in his propositions to carry them out The Noble
Lordhad proved by hisl3ill that all the complaints,
and all the agitatioo,which existed
upon this subject
were fully jnstified.--(Hear, hear.) But the •Noble
Lord had• fallen into all those errors into which it
might be expected lie would, considering the advice
under which 'he acted.--(Hear.) Ile believed the
Noble Lord himself pos.sesied the best and most honest
intentions, but he believed the views of the Noble'Lord
were not carried out in his own Bill. The principle
of the Bill was the main thing ; but, after all, the
way whieli the principle was to he carried one was
a-great point. • The majority of tho judges.had. de-
cided . -that the solvent tenant test ;should be
applied ; that was, that a solvent tenant' should
be able to pay • over and above . what
was paid by the occupier, and that he understood was
the interpretation which the Noble Lord intended to
give in his Bill.t -The Noble Lord admitted that, such
an interpretation - would diminish the present
niunher of 'voters 'on- the registry by one-fourth,
and to allow for this, he proposed to give the fran-
chise .to .persons rated under the- poor -law. at 30t.
°year. This would, at the least, make 50/. a
year rent ;• • and- he contended - that any man
paying . such a rent would .he able 'to qualify
at the quarter sessions under
in-
terpretation of the
,IRW. the present
If his
__statement
was correct the 25,000 metes .6- proposed t la

'I

~- ~

••••=0 ,14.1
thy 301. rating would pr,-;ye to be , nOthigg at all.
Therewas an important part-o. the ' t'ch,wa
civsel
omitted by the Noble Lord, namely, .that did nor
state whether this 301. was to be a.4,-iei.'andf,
-1.
or not. -
Lord ELIOT—It was an occupaticte of *) '
Mr. M. OTERRA.LL—Then to that .yeti enttehre.
tamed a strong objection, for it. would 14.1.,A '2
voter much more under the influence of tha•. ,
lord than he was under the present b. r
The persons who, under the present law, had the 10&.
qualification, were protected by their leases, and could
not be turned out by the landlords for voting according
to their own feelings; but the persons rated at 301. were,
for the most part, so placed under the present law,
that could be ejected on three months',
notice.-(Hear, hear.) The result would be to place
the best and most industrious part of the community
entirely in the power of the landlords. He thought a
franchise of this kind the greatest curse that could be
inflicted on Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) It was better to
say at once that those who held land in tenancy should
not vote at all—(Hear, hear)—better to inquire how
many tenants rated at 301. each landlord bad
upon his estates, and to give him at once
just as .many votes as he had such tenants.
Nothing could be more unjust, impolitic, or dan-
gerous,
than to give the landlords of Ireland any in-
creased power over the conse:entious exercise of the
constitutional rights of his tenants.—(Hear, hear.)
The danger to which property was at present exposed
in Ireland, and which was on the increase, could not

but be aggravated by giving the landlords this further.
power of interference. When the Noble Lord, the

Member for North Lancashire made his celebrated
speech upon the bribery that prevailed at Irish elec
tions he forgot to mention the bribery which was
induced by the clause giving the franchise upon reni-

charges of 201. and 501. In many instances persons, 7
without proving that they received that qualification
came down to the election, and, upon swearing
that they had such rent-charge, were allowed to
vote. A similar abuse. existed in Scotland, but
then in Scotland there was a balance of evils, for
parties were nearly equal in that part of the
kingdorti; 'and, if one side created fraudulent votes,
the abuse was compensated by the other party
creating an equal number • but in Ireland, the land,
forthemost part, was in.the hands of one party, and
there was no such molitis of compensating fraud on
the one hand, by equal fraud on the other. He ad-
mitted that where hbuses existed they ought to
be corrected, but if they gave the franchise to per-
sons so qualified they ought to demand proof of the
receipt of the 301. for six or twelve months preceding,
It was necessary that persons claiming should :t put
to the proof of the actual receipt. The Noble Lord
had stated truly that the 40s. franchise which, bad
been destroyed in 1829 had produced a great effect
in some counties, and scarcely any effect in others.
In the county which he represented it had produced
scarcely any effect, but in many counties the ma-
jority of the freeholders had been swept away. •
must admit that the 51. franchise was, of all others,
the one most desirable to exist ; but, under the pre-
sent circumstances, he found that there was scarcely ;
any chance of any great number of such voters being
created. Then, with regard to the franchise-in towns.
It appeared that where three persons had a beneficial
interest in a holding of the value of 301. it was the in-
tention of the Government that . each of them

should be upon the register.—(Hear, - hear.)
But he wished to draiv the Noble Lord's attention;
to one point, which was that in cases where a -ma*
held different tenements of one landlord, the amount =
of the whole rent of which was 101., he was entitled. '
to a vote ; but where he held' tenements of different
landlords, the total value of which wasmore'than 10/.,
but of which 101. was not held under one landlord,
the occupier was not entitled to a vote. Now this he
considered ought to be_ altered. He did not wish to
make any unnecessary objections to the Government
measure, and he was sorry that, while the Government
admitted the principle of the necessity of extending-
the franchise; they had not sufficiently carried it out,"
He must protest against giving the franchise to the.,
301. tenants-at-will.
After a few words from Mr. GROG-AN,

Mr. F. SHAW said he did not think the measure
would have • much immediate practical effect,. The ,
amount of the holding was a matter of coffiparatiYe •
indifference ; while the present state of society is e
Ireland, there was an indisposition on the part of the ,
tenant to be put upon the registry at all. The tenant's
Who wished to attend more to their farms and their r
families than to politics, generally declined to be-VP
on the registry, as they wished to live in peace with •
their landlords, and those who had influence over,
them. Whether the holding was 301. or 50L'
would make little practical difference. He would not
enter into the merits of the Bill till they had seen it
printed, and looked more particularly into its provi"
sioris. He was unwilling to give his opinion.as to the
measure, except as to one point. If by giving,the•
franchise to 51. freeholders, they could encourage tte„,
creation of such a class of proprietors, he should tnueP;
wish to see it carried into effect. • hi
• Lord JOHN RUSSELL said. this was a subje°
'which, in itself, was one of very considerable dif6-
culty, and he was prepared to .admit that the Noble
Lord had introduced it with g'idat good temper.
first proposition would, as' admitted by the Noble
Lord himself, cause a .verr,great deficiency in the
.number of voters in Ireland. Speaking generally* it
,might, it appeared, be taken at not less than twenty',
'five Thousand. But how did the Noble Lord propose
to Supply' the deficiency ? By allowing tenants par
ing a certain rent, and occupying from year to year;
to have votes, and therefore, so far, it • wall',
be a tenant-at-will clause ; as it was well.
known that a tenant choosing to vote ad-
versely to his landlord would be obliged t.,°,
quit his farm. This tenant-at-will franchise had'
never been known in England until • the Passing of
the Reform Bill, and let it be remembered it was not
Then proposed by the authors of the Bill, but by 3,
Noble Duke, then the Marquis of Chandos and ge,
Member of that House. 'Such was the ori,srin.of that
tenant-at-will clause, which placed the counties entirely
in the hands of the landlords. The effect of this oleos°
had been described very accurately and very
with respect to the counties of England, by the Noble
Lord the Secretary_ for the Colonies (Lord StanleY)l
who had on a former occasion told the House that it.
was only for Six or seven of the large landed p!e-
prietors to meet, and then the future representatrofl
was at once determined on. In England they fowl('
a very strong inclination, both among Whiglandlord',
and • tenants,. and Tory landlords and tenants, to eF;
together at elections ; and therefore the system 'dr
not create so great an amount of evil as it was certall„3
to do in Ireland. In some cases in England no doubli
it 'produced gross oppression and great evil, but in
the general run it did 'not perhaps do so. - The 05'
iu Ireland was very different. There, generallyspeaking, the tenants were anxious to escape frell.4
voting ; on the one hand, not wishing, to vote
the landlord—on the other, trying to avoid poPul.,
influences, in order not to seriously offend the lane,
lord. It was imposssible to have the same clause in
Ireland that now existed in England; 'without prr
clueing very great discontent. If the effect 'of it 03.
Ireland should be the same as it was in England, t°
make the counties the channels through which tllu
landlords should send to Parliament whomsoever they
liked, the representation would be the constant wire°
of irritation and annoyance. He (Lord: John
Russell) considered therefore • that the intfe-,
duction of the thirty-pound tenant chill
was one which was very objectionable indeed'.
Introducing so high an amount as 30'. for occupatiti
would, he feared, only lead the 'an 'lords to thie7
that the body. of electors would be sufficiently Halite'',
for them to have some influence or power over them
He _ was glad that the Noble Lord proposed 0,4)e
freehold franchise Bill. He only regretted that thett
was not also a 40s. freehold franchise. The nureber
of freehold franchises in fee of Si., as well as those o
40s. in fee, would be small, and he did not see 11'J
• they should not give the same franchise in this lei
spect to Ireland as England enjoyed. He would 11,
then enter into the merits of the whole Bill, expee t
ing that on a future occasion the Right Hon. Barenvet
would furnish the explanation desired. At prcse..,
he could not see how the present Bill would subslelo•
tinily effect equality in the Irish franchise. rhot
Noble Lord proposed certain changes with respeeL,
the right of voting, which he thought would be "be
neficial. With regard to the Corporations, if pi
understood rightly, the voting for municipal officei
would be the same as in England. He did not 10°
that there was any provision in the Bill for the plc
ment of rates. lie had no further objection to re 3
in this•stage of the proceedings. •ye
Mr. BELLEW said he was not prepared tofoe.
any opinion at present on the tenancy at will clads 11
but he did not think the registry would he
affected by it. The franchise in Ireland show
as extensive as was contemplated by theßeforni P„le
Lord HQWICK thought that it was well wortht`ci.
consideration of her Majesty's Government wheth
they might not get rid of all the agitation of the rfp'j
tration courts by taking the rating on the list I'f
of compelling the party to appear for the purp(l)l epfdo
proving the amount.—(Hear, hear.) lie t toe
gentleman on that side of the House would 11°
hastily,Wemn voting fou'nded on mere occul)rat'i°lef
h but if t'
e admitted the superiority of a lease; le e°s
'
truateipentirely to a franchise depending 01
l.
ther:eould:not obtain a sufficient number of ve_t,,e',,,lek •
(rPfitf;he'ifraeou'l Wei'Vtiisterial benches.)
tb
recd deed a. lease, the± "paced it in the power.°fthe
great' owners of the Soil virtually to disfranclus fool
eleatcii•s.—(Hear.) A franchise arising only 0.50 rt
a lease was liable to great:almses. Suppose tt.ll The"
granting a lease to the amount of 101-. or 201.%,_01
lease might be granted at a nominal rent, ‘ 'n_votee
much less sum was really paid, in order that the 0
might be retained in the power of the landlord' 0/ •
had had' considerable experience in county e°l'tl.
e ,rt't
and all his eXperienceled,him to the same opveot
would be practically iinprissiblie.,te geij

ma-

• se.
;here,
pre-
xcely

being

)wrig•

!ficial •
ae in- '
them
tear.)
ntion
man
nount
titled''
recent
dlord,
he
ish to
iment
lment

nding,
t out.:
~,O the.

aasure
The

6rative
3t3rin
of the
anants
their
be put.
with ,
over,

50t!
Lid not
seen it
prod.!'
to the
1g • 00'
ge tti)
nittcp;
,übjcel
Noble

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