The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-23 00:00:00

pared to receive t him. They regarded a second ch um-
ber as a speculative &ttempt. The legislative council
was to have full power to make changes, and to choose
their own time end their own cour,e in making a eie
changes. How could they judge for them so well us
they could judge for themselves? lie should therefore
support her Mujesty's Government upon this question.
Mr. HUME said that the coloni-ti should have the
power to decide forthwith, and whenever they pleased,
what form of government it would be most expi client for
them to adopt. The ateendrneAt proposed to tramf,r the
whole of the titer-honoured estates of this country into
the colony, which did not contain any materials of a na-
ture at al analogous to the materials which existed in
this ceuntry. A speech more inapplic,ble to the condi.-
Von of the colonists than that of the Hon. Mover of the
amendment he had never heard. He was entirely wrong
in proposing to transfer and car°, out in a colony all
the institutions of this country. Ho would transfer to
the colony the whole bench of bishops. He would not
support any measure of dictation to the colonieA. The
Act of her Msjesty's Government was funded upon a
wise and liberal po!icy. The elf,ct of it would be to bind
our c:ilonies to this country, and make their interests one
with it. By it they should retain their allegianc.., and
make them commercially uscfal and valuable to this

country.
Mr. HOPE said, that i they thought that government
by a Sovereign and two Houses of Parliament was the
beat fora Saxen race, then they ought to give theta a con-
stitution founded upon those pririciples. Tney should
have the elements of good, honest, and just govrnment,
and that was best ensured by the ferule of the British
Constitution. Ho should, therefore, support the amend-
ment.
Mr. SCOTT said, that the basis of all the arguments
of the Government wits, that they ought not to legislate
fer the colonists without their consent. Well, Sir, they
had not their consent to the measure proposed by Go-
vernment. Taey hat sent oat this 13t11, which had.
reached the colony during the sitting of the Legislature
of the colony, and yet they had hat no expression of
opinion yet. When it was said with boldness they had,
be was constrained to say that he thought the assertion
a misstatement of the Under-Secretary of State. They
had bad simply an opinion from the colony of New
South Wales, but from no other colony. The circum-
stances of that colony were totally different. There was,
in the first place, a petition presented to the House in
1848, from the colony of New South Wales, and it was
not then stated that any dislike to two chambers
existed, but there was a complaint in it
against the system proposed by the Colonial
Scretary at the time, which the colonists, it
adopted, would deprive them of the elective franchise.
Those petitioners said they were anxious to enjoy the
benefit of British institutions, but there was not a word
against their having a second chamber. There was also
presented a petition to that House from the electoral
division of Penrine, in which it was stated that the Bill
then proposed, in 1848, by Lord Grey, would be thee
a Bill of pains and penalties, and prayed her Majesty
not to sanction the passing of so crude and experimental
a law in respect of them. But, again, there was no opi-
nion expressed against two chambers. The petition
presented to that House from Port Philip, in reference
to that Bill, was of a similar import. There were three
other petitions presented from the colony to that House,
all of a like import, and where, then, was the evidence
of the colonists being against two chambers? He thought
it necessary to refer to those petitions, in consequence
of the words put into the mouths of the colonists
by the Under-Secretaiy for the Colonies and other
Hon. Gentlemen who supported his views. Then, again,
the opinion of the governor of Van Diemen's Land was
also in favour cf two chambers. He said decidedly, that
if a union of those colonies were to take place, he would
recommend the establishment of an upper chamber.
And why did he say so? It was because that he con-
ceived such would elevate the state of society in that
colony. In arguing the question, however,they ha I heard
nothing of the advantages which would accrue to the
colony from the establishment of such a chamber, but
all that was contended was, that such a chamber was
advetse to the opinions of the colorists, but be thought
the opinions of the colonists, as expressed in the peti-
tions he had alluded to, and that of the governor of Van
Diemen's Land, was a decided and satisfactory answer
to that argument. Besides, the Noble Earl at the head
of the Colonial-office himself, two years ago,
pressed a much similar opinion, and now he thought
was the time that such could be advantageously
conferred on the country. No doubt their bad legisla-
tion in respect of Australia had rendered the materials
for a second Chamber less than they would have been,
but still there was suffident to begin with, and ho would
most cordially support the amendment.
Mr. LA BOUCIIERE said he was anxious not to
give a silent vote in respect of this amendment, and ho
thought he might say, in speaking of it, and in respect
of the measure now before the House, that the course
Government bad taken in respect of that measure was
frank and open ; that they had been actuated by the best
intentions towards those colonies to which the measure
IN- furred, arid he had no doubt that their intentions would
be jointly appreciated by those for whom the measure was
intended. The intelligence which has bean received
from Australia, not only from official sources, but also
from the newspapers published in the colony, went to
show that upon the whole the measure had been re-
ceived by the colonists as not only wise, kind, and po-
litic, but also ore which woull strengthen their instita
tions and promote their general welfare—the knowledge
of that fact., that the measure had been so well re-
ceived by the colonists, comforted him amid all the at-
tacks which had been made upon him as a supporter of it
in the course of its discussion in that House ; and be
had not the slightest doubt that Governteeet would,
should it be passed, be awarded the greatest credit for
proposing measure, which had the effect cf extending
the blessings of the institutions of this 'country to their
remotest possessions. The question now under discus-
sion was whether it would be prcper to at once propose
the introduction of two chambers, or whether they should
pass the measure as it *toed, leaving to tho colonists
themselves to test it, and should they find a double
chamber requisite to adopt it. It was thought proper in
considering the question to refer it to the consideration
of the Committee in Privy Council, and the doing so
enabled the Government to examine all the facts and
documents connected with the case, in fact, to, as it
were, take the colonists themselves before them, and
heir them in respect of their case. That bad been
attended with the best result, for it showed
the colonists that there was every feeling and
wish on the part of the Government to consider their
case. In that Committee he admitted that there was
an expression of opinion in favour of two chambers, but
in giving expression to that opinion they were doing no-
thing wore than giving expression to „hat he believed
to be the opinion of the great majority of the people
' of this country. In this country they had beens-
tomed to two chambers too long not to cherish them.
But 'in the report of the Committee of Privy Council
the reasons which induced them not to concede two
chambers in the present instance, but leave that to the
colonists themselves were also stated; and he thought no
one who read those reasons would fail to see that there
e as in the whole conduct of the Government respecting
the measut e an obvious and anxious desire to respect
the feelings of the colonists, and to consult them on all
matters connected with their interest. That being the
ease, ho was not a little surprised at Honourable Mem-
bers on his side of the House, who spoke so much about
giving effect to the opinions of the people, urging so
many objections to the measure, and complaining so
much of the conduct of the Government respecting it.
He would not weary the House by reading papers, but
he thought there was no one who read the documents
which,Lasi come from Australia respecting this mea-
sure but could fail to tee that the colonists ob•
jected to any change in their present institutions without
their being consulted; and that being the case, was it
not better to pass this measure which the colonists ap-
proved of, rather than adopt one which it was doubtful
as to whether or not they would accept. He admitted
that in making the chamber elective, they had introduced
a new principle into the colony, but that was one of the
most important principles of the constitution of this
'country, and wherever they could, it ought to be ex-
tended. An Hon. Gentleman had hinted as much as
ti.a, the second chamber contended fir should contain
somewhat of hereditary elements, but be would never be
a party to the sowing the seeds of aristocracy in such a
place as Australia. That principle was contended for
by Mr. Pitt, in a measure which he introduced respecting
Canada, but it was strenuously opposed by Mr. Fox, and
the propriety of its rejection was now teen in the state of
Canada. He believed, if they introduced a second cham-
ber, it should be on the principle of election, but he felt
convinced it was not wise to do so in that instance. In the
first place, let them look at the delay which must take
place if they adopted it. They should create a qualifica-
tion which must cause delay and much disappointment,
and that, too, at a time when it was absolutely neces-
sary to pass the measure during the present session of
Parliament. One of the many topics which now pressed
015 their attention was, the separation of Victoria from
New South Wales, and it would be utterly impossible
to do that if the principle of the present Bill were re-
jected this session. lie very much doubted if, in these
colonies at present, sufficient persons could be found to
constitute an Assembly and a Second Chamber at a time;
and that was the opinion of two distinguished men—Sir
G. Grey, Governor of Van Diemen's Land, and Sir G.
Gibbs. That was the opinion, also, of men in the cola-.
nies themselves, who were, in theory, for the principle
of two chambers, but avowed that, at present, it was
impossible to procure persons to; form a second cham-
ber. Mr, Wentworth, a gentleman of great distinction
in New South Wales, placed a motion on the books
of the Council, stating, he preferred one chamber
to two, where one was composed of nominees of the
Crown ; first, because there did not exist any class of
sufficient fortune in the colonies to be raised to the station
of hereditary legislators, or legislators for life; and se-
condly, because the second chamber would be composed
of nominees of the Crown, appointed for a limited period
in the council; and a council thus constituted would be a
mere machine in the hands. of the Colonial-office. It
was quite true ho made no reference to an elective
chamber on an elective principle, but even if he bad, be
would, no doubt, on the principles which he propounded,
be of the same opinion: Considering, therefore, the
ines suffering
gla
opinions expressed by the colonists, and that they were
not legislating forrecooploieni
considering theunderwere satisfiedopp re s s owni;
of i 11, inasmuch
the
colonists
their institutions, he thought they ought to pass the
B
coardicnig again,
tothet h
epy had
i er
themselves.as i tw a a
framedll e repeated
every reason to believe the measure gave
great satisfac-
tion to the colonies; the merchants connew el with them
had petitioned in its favour, end on that account be
hoped the House would support the measure of the Go-
vernment, brought forward in a spirit of goodwill and
kindness, and reject the mutton of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Midhurst.
Sir W. MOLESWORTH contended it was the duty
of the British Parliament to frame institutions, in the
first instance, for their colonists, and on that account a
deep responsibility was attached to them. There were
five colonies ..ia-AusOalia,. one of which had already a

cens nution, and for were about to receive it, aid the things—either that the Legislature which they were now
que.snoti then was what was the constitution best adapted confirming, and not introducing, was one that could be
to prom de their greatness and prosperity. Th .t the co- reps a'ed either by the two chambers, or by some depute
lonists ought to have power to alter ant to amend their form of appointment and election, or else the present
own constitutine, was egret d on; and then caine the pro- constitution would last as one that was perfectly satis-
position what governmentfirm of governeet ought teey to start factory to the people of New South Wales. Now, if
with. The Government proposed .but a single elective this constitution Was to be changed, let them wait until
chamber, one third of whichwere to be nominated by they heard. the opinion of the people.--(llear.)
the Colonial .office. The Noble Lord at the head of the If they had a house utterly unfit to live in, and
Governteeet was the illustrious author of the Reform required a new one, the prudent course would
Bill, and what would he think if out of the British repre• be to remain in the old one until they had settlad
ed
sentatiou 226 members were to be nominetten by the the plan of tl e new.—(llear, hear.) Now, what h
Crown; and yet that was what the NoitileeLerd proposed taken place with respect to this measure? A report of
to do with the present P,ll, as regarded the Australian the Privy Council—a report written with great ability,
colonies. The Lion. and Learnedeeentleman the Member and showing not only the course which the Government
for Midhurst brought forward bis motion with great clear- proposed to pursue, but the reasons and
greun d
ness and ability, and as regarded tne theory of two chain- which it was based—was laid before her M sjesty pon
in
s u
bears, the Reetit lion. Gentleman' the Pl e.ident of the council, and approved and printed in May, 184 S, and in
Board of Trade was in its favour, and the Under Sccre- that report a strong suggestion was made in favour of
teary for the Colonies, Sir Ciewles Fi•zrov, Governor of two chambers.—(Hear.) All the reasons derived from
New South Wale., the Governors of New Ze dand and Van the constitution and the state of the laws were adduced
Diemen's Land, were all f w the theory of having two in favour of the Bill, and the whole of the arguments in
chambers. He contended there was not the slightest favour of the conclusion the Committee of the Privy
evidence to prove that the colonies of Victoria, Western Council adopted was supported by evidence to the
or South Australis, were in favour of one chamber, and 1 same purport. While all the general arguments were
~pproved of the present Bill, not because they were ss- givea in favour of the alteration, the main ground against
tisfod with it, but, in the absence of a better. It was it was stated to be the public opinion of New South
also sail, over and over again, that New S iuth Wales 1 Wales? Nothing, he thought, could be more obvious
was in favour of its present constitution; but he co:.- I than that if public opinion was in favour of the two
tendsd that there was no evidence on that subject to jus- I eharnbns there would have been petitions from the
tify such an opinion. The Hon. Baronet having na l a colonies. What were the aneeations he found in tie pe-
diepatch of Earl Grey, dated last July, in reply to which 1 tition he had had the honour to present, and which ban
the inhabitants of New Scuth Wales met, and denounced I been signed by the most considerable firms who had
the constitution which he proposed' fn. their adoption, connexions in New South Wales ? It was stated in
in a memorial ad,ir, said to her Majesty, proceeded to the petition that the report of the Committee of the
say that they showed, by that document, their disgust 1 Privy Council having reached the colonies of
at the experiment of the Colonial (iffiest. tied all (testi-en New South Wales it appeared to have been received
institutions as near those in existence at home as possible I with a high degree of satisfaction by the
people of
whenever circumstances permitted. Then, as to the power , each colony, and it observed that the proposed arrange-
of altering their constitution being vested in the legisla- went was calculated t) secure the login.: attachment
tivecouncil, he denounced it asfutile. Let the Government of the colonies to the Crown and interests of the mother
propose teat a convention be summoned in those colonies, , country. Now, there were persons hiving a strong W-
as was done in the United States of America. There a ere 1 terest in the welfare of those colonies, and having re-
in that country no less than 34 states planted by English ceived all the intelligence from those colonies which
colonis'r, who carried with them from this country those either public or private letters conveyed, they came to
principles on which they were founded and flourished. that House to ask them to pass the Bill and not to adopt
Let them contrast that with the policy now pursued at the great alterations proposed. Now, if they were to
the Colonial-effice, where constitutions were either pro- adopt alterations in the Bill, the question was what she-
posed or rejected, according to the whim of the Minister rations should they adopt in place of the present consti-
or the Colonial-office. Compare this with the course tution? The proposition of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
proposed. In the first place, they began with a bad con- tleman was a proposition which went not to make alte-
stitution of a single chamber, in which there would be rations for the present, but a great series of permanent ,
no control over the impulses of the democracy. But it t alterations in the constitution oft he country ; because
might be said the Colonial-office would have a coittrol. the honourable and Learned Gentleman meant to pro-
liug power over the Legislature. Did they mean to ex- pose that the legislative council should be elected for ten
ercise that control? If they did, they would run years, and after that the legislative council should be
counter to the feelings of the colonists, and expose the elect el for life. What he intended, therefore, was a
Imperial Government to defeat and dishonour. He permanent change in the constitution of New South
wished to ask the Noble Lord a question. If these Wales. He proposed two councils, one a represents:
colonies proposed to make a single elective chamber, tive assembly, and the other to be appointed by the
would he pledge himself to give the sanction of the Crown. lie doubted whether a council appointed by
Government to that single elective chamber? the Crown, and having the power to stop a Bill coming
That was a question which would moat certainly be from the representative assembly, would give satisfac-
forced upon his consideration by the colonies , tion to the people of New South Wales. He had the
themselves ? lie would now give his reasons for sup- opinion of the elective members of the legislative council
porting a double chamber. A representative Legislature on that point in their votes and proceedings of the 2d
should be a reflex of the opinions of the whole commu- May, 1848, which had been laid before the House. In
pity. In every community there was an innovating and that case the council was disposed to view favourably the
a conservative tendency, and the great object they should separation of the functions of the nominees of the Crown
have in view was to prevent party innovation, without from those of the people. By a majority of 9t04 of the
giving an undue preponderance to the conservative ten- elective council of New South Wales the amendment of
dency. Now, would a single chamber effect these two the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was rejected. He
objeets? He believed not; but, on the contrary, that a would ask whether, after having stated their wish to
single chamber would cause an antagonism between the consult the feelings of the people of New South Wales,
colonies and the Imperial Government. All experience their first alteration should be directly in the teeth of
proved that it was better that the struggle between these the recorded opinions of the representative council? If
two opposing tendencies should take place in the bosom that clause was rejected, they were not without some
of the community in which they were developed— resource. The lion. and Learned Gentleman proposed
(Hear, hear)--because, as was shown in the case of the , that the district of New South Wales should be divided
House of Lords in this country, however conservative into provinces, each electing three representatives—one
they might be, their interests were identified with the of them for three years, another for six years, and a
great body of. the community, and practically it was third for nine years. Now there were many objections
the case, that whenever any public question had to that plan, bat the main one was, it was a proposition
been decided upon by the great body of Pie people, altogether unheard-of in New South Wales, and they
the good sense of the House of Lords always led were to adopt it without knowing whether five men in
them to acquiesce in that decision.—(Hear, hear.) New South Wales would be satisfied with it. The Hon.
Now, it was ridiculous to compare a body of Crown and Learned Gentleman next proposed that they should
nominees with the Lord.. They could be only a purely be elected in provinces, of the amount and extent of the
obstructive body.—(Divide.) The Right Hon. Gentle- population of which, and especially of how many had the
man said there were no materials for a second chamber qualification of 2001. a year in land, which he proposed,
in the colonies. He agreed with him in thinking they were utterly ignorant; and in laying down such a
that there were no materials for a nominated Chamber, constitution, they might find in some of these provinces
because we had all too good an opinion of ourselves to not more than five or six persons likely to be elected,
believe that any body of men should have an irrespon- and they would thus make a close monopoly of it. That
sible control over legislation. He objected to a nomi- was another strange reason why they should adopt the
native chamber, because it would lead to a conflict be- proposition. The effect of it, in all probability, would
tween tle elective and the nominative Chamber; or, in be to form an oligarchy, who would be found objecting
other words, the Imperial Government. For the same to and obstructing popular measures. It was calculated
reason he objected to a single chamber, because it would to set up a monopoly in the hands of a few persons.
lead t 1 a struggle between the chamber and the gover- The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite had another
nor of the colony; or, in other words, against the Inspe- and a more complicated plan, but one which could not
rial Government. But he supported an upper, and he be safely adopted by the House. The other proposition,
proposed that it should be composed of persona having which made a separate council of the nominees, was sure
double the property qualification of the Members of the to be distasteful to the colonists. New much stress had
lower chamber; that they should be elected for nine been laid upon the constitutions of the other colonies,
years, and be older men, because elder men were less but he thought they would much err if they adopted
innovating—(Laug'uter)—and as small bodies were less them as the rule. Take the case of Jamaica. The first
liable to impulsive action and innovating tendencies than constitution was that of a governor and council and a
large bodies, he proposed that it should be smaller in house of assembly. The governor and council sat
number; that the Members should not be elected at the together, and they were as it were the executive of the
same time; that they should bb all elected by the Governor. Gradually they adopted the privilege of
people. Under such regulations, ho believed, they sitting alone; but ho asked, would New South Wale+
would secure all the advantages arising irom a double be satisfied with stfch a council as that, composed of the
chamber, give both the conservative and the innovating judges, the attorney and solicitor-general, and persons
instincts of the colonial communities legitimate and con• named by the Crown ? Lately there was a proposal
stitutional methods of expression and action, and pre- fir retrenchment of expenditure in Jamaica, which
vent those conflicts between the Imperial and Colonial I had been rejected by the council. Suppose that had
Governments, which would ensue from a single chamber, been approved of in New South Wales, could any per-
, omposed ee the measure new under consideration pro- mane the amount ef the discontent that would be
po,ed.—(Hear, hear.) exc:t el? He called then upon the Committee to affirm
Mr. PEEL supported the amendment, thinking it most the proposition of the Government, because it had bet n
important to assimilate the institutions of the colonies to leveurably received in the Atwt -alien colonies, and could
those of this country, and to introduce the features of be adopted wOhout danger.—(Hear.)
the British Constitution into the colonial governments Mr. GLADSTONE would not trespass long on the
of the empire. It was very desirable that the House time and patience of the Committee at that late hour of
should not take a false step on this occasion, because the night, and hoped for its indulgence, as he was
whatever might be the form of the constitution recom- anxious to express his opinion on the two
propositions
mended to Australia, it would have to rest exclusively hi f ,re the House. Amidst the multitudinous buaine is of
for its support on the influence and authority of those Parliament, it was difficult for Members to give their
who would constitute the governing body, and the good minds fully to all subjects; but he implored the Com-
opinion of the governed.—(Hear, hear.) If the system mittee to recollect thae they were now about to give a
wits to obtain permanence it must be congenial ti their constitution to five colonies, on which might hinge the
wishes, and he would leave lion. Gentlemen to judge fate of those colonies, for good or for evil. —(Hear, hear.)
how far an assembly, two Fats elective and one nomi- The great question was, whether they were to give to
native, were likely to secure the good opinion of the cold- the colony& double or a single chamber. lie could not
nists, or to command their acquiescence in the decision but admit that great credit ought to be given to
l f its majorities.—(Beier.) He bad heard no argument Government for the liberal spirit in which it had come
in dsf, nee of a single chamber, unless that it was the forward on this subject; but the Noble Lord at the heal
form of the constitution in New South Wale:, and that of the Government bad gone too far in saying that the
a wish had been expressed that no alteration should be proposition of the Government had been well received
mada without their consent.—(Hear, hear.) Many Hon. in the colonies. It bad been well received, but it was
Gentlemen who entertained objections to the present only comparatively well received. Tee Noble Lord
measure considered it unnecessary to press them, on the 0 had not said one word of what went before. Tney had
ground that the provisions of the Bill would enable the it, for instance, on the authority of the Government of
I
people of Australia to alter and amend the constitution New Zealand, that the people were desirous to have
a: tey might think fit, and to adopt a double chamber an upper chamber, and 80, in like manner, they
if they should wish to do so. Now, so far from the sug- , hail it from the Governor of Van Dieeaen's Land
gested remedy satisfying his objection, it aegravated that an upper chamber was desired in that
the inconvenience, and the disastrous policy of too course colony. They had district councils introduced by the
now proposed to be taken, because no sooner would the Government into New South Wales, and those district
legislative assembly melt than they would be called councils were a sore and a festering cause of discontent
upon to discuss a great constitutional question—to con- between the Government of this country and echo-
sider and review the fundamental principles of their con- !lists, and the question of those district councils was
stitution, and to re-arrange and remodel the fam of not yet given up by the Government. Did
them Goverortant
their legislature.—(Hear, legislature.—(Hear, hear.) It could not be ex- merit, he would ask, not propose to mak ip
petted that the members would act harmoniouly to- changes in the constitution of New South Wales, b y the
get her, because the interest of the elective members present Bill, without the consent of the
would appear to be opposed to those of the nominated colony? Undoubtedly they did. The chan e which
K
people of that
members. This, measure, therefore, would hiy the they proposed indicated an enlargement of the
w a
constttu-
ground for future dissensions and local jealousies, and tion of the colony, and that indication was
aarrnt to
would also hazard the good understanding which ought those who supported the motion now before the Heusi
to prevail between this country and the colonies.— that they, too, should endeavour to enlarge the consti-
(Hear.) It was very possible the legislative council tition of the colony still more. lie had no hesitation
would come to a resolution that the legislative power in saying that the measure proposed by the Government
ought to be vested in a single chamber, purely elective, would, it carried, although somewhat enlarged in its
entirely popular, without any admixture of nominative view, lead to the greatest political discontent, and
that
to a
members, and he apprehended the Government at home constant agitation, until, in one form
or another,
could not consent to a legislative assembly so consti- consitution should be changed. Ile thought the
toted.—(blear, hear.) It was said that. there would be Committee and the country. were greatly indebted
some difficulty in constituting the upper chamber, but if to the able pahipblet of Mr. Macka, which
Hon. Members would turn their attention to the pointed out the manner in whieh the proYosed con
p-
example of the United States, they would find that diffi- stitution was likely to act in New South Wales. He
culty not insuperable. In every one of the states the (Mr. Gladstone) objected to the Constitution proposed
legislative power was vested in a Senate end a House of by the Government on several grounds, as not likely to
Representatives, the population of some of the states not be productive of satisfaction to the colonists,
hianch would
d as cal-
exceeding that of New South Wales. In Pennsylvania, culated to create an anti-British feeling, w
the legislative power was at first invested in a single recoil upon them, and that their measures were allied
chamber, but efxrwards remodelled upon the plan with something calculated to give a distaste for British
which had received the sanction of the other states. It institutions. He considered that the one chamber, pro-
was
the same in Rhode Island. He supported the double posed by the Government (with twelve of its members
chamber because he thought the form of the legislature mere " nominees of the Crown,") would prove a source
of each colony would materially influence the form of of constant political discontent, and thus it was that he
colonists
o Learnedista
tw o Member,ohamhera, whicho n
a proposel to give to the
sound constitutional prin..
the general assembly.—(Hear, hear.) lie considered should give his vote in favour of the motion of the Hon.
it essential, if the independence of the several coloniesthat
tthe 9n
a
composing the union was to be preserved,
power of the general assembly should not be exercised ciple.—(Hear, hear.) It was quite unnecessary to go
by one legislative house; and he could not give his into the grounds upon which the Right lion. Gentleman
sanction to an institution which was admitted to be de- the Member for Southwark clearly demonstrated the ne-
fective. eessity of constituting the government on this principle.
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY said that he Much as he was attached to the principle of the double
had come down to the House with a strong preposses- cbamber, and though delay might be a great evil, still, if
sion in favour of two chambers, but the arguments the Government were unprepared to introduce a mea-
which had been adduced in the course of the debate had sure this session to carry out the principle, ho would
entirely changel his opinion.—(Bear, hear.) much rather send a good constitution to South Aus-
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Lion. Member for Leo- trails in 1151, than a bad one in 1850.—(hear, hear.)
minster had put the arguments in favour of the amend- The principle of nomination professed to be that which
went in as strong a light as possible, and yet he bad it was not; it professed to place before the country as
however, to make
failed to show any good reasons why the House should legislators men who depende upn an act of the will of
vote for the amendment. It was said that the Govern- the Government, and he was wing,
went were now introducing a new constitution into this concession to the Noble Lord that this was not a
Australia—that they were putting into the legislature vital matter for the present moment; but it was neces-
of New South Wales that which never existed before, sstY to make preparations for
it outt futuvireew ; anfor ao td hwe
easenver
namely, members appointed by the Crown, and starting`they might be willing to keep
a constitution wholly unknown to them. Now, this 1 they ought never to forget
of
that it materially affected the
made it necessary for him to stet) what had been the 1 future prospects of the Toecolon On
illthiet i the s subject hd
e
course of legislation on this subject. In July,uite ree I with his Hon.
1840, he quoted from the work of M. deq
had the honour of introducing a Bill conlaioinn a pro- , ! States of America, and lie q uguev Unite
vision for calling in a council in New South %Vali s of 1 Friend the Member
thirty-six members, of whom twenty-four should he had made to the United Stetes, as an example of the
for Leominster. in the appeal which
be elective, and twelve nominated by the iOf eratiou of this principle. In 1621, the first Assembly
Crown. In the year 1842 Lord Stanley succeeded to iof Virginia sat; in 1624 the Patent of the nonsresident
the seals of the Colonial-Aiice, and introduced a Bill of 1 company w„ tuna gedt 1628 Massachuseit :obtained its
a similar description. This was a strong presusan• I charter, and in 1629 it fixed the seat of power on the
tion that no great discontent or dissatis'amien 1 other aide of the Atlantic. Thus the colony was
had arisen in New South Wales between July, 1840, 1 really governed by local influence. When young
when the first measure was introduced, and 1847 d states - were to be launched into the world,
when the Bill was brought in by Lord Stanley.— under the difficult and critical cireurnstences
(Hoer, hear.) That Bill ma with little opposition, 1 which it appeared to be decreed should then sure
and became Act of Parliament. From tit's time this I round there, it was necessary above all things to
onstitution, elicli was represeated ar. so monstrous, as provide principles of a sound constitution. Is was by
a =Chine which could not work, as a thing utterly means only of the double chamber that that great man
known in principle, as wholly impracticable, had been Washington was able to bring his country through the
the population of which j dangers which menaced i
al .•t from domestic disorgantz l-
e Amermans was so strong
workinghad n o t yient
NdieswcovtuetdhitlVfaaluels:s.—(flear.) This was a 'liar.. When the feeling of . .
presumption that in intreducing a Bill at the present against anything particiating
if they examined into the facts of
in the nature ot hereditary
time, it was at least a safe course to proceed upon the transmission of power, . .
r of the
foundation which had been already laid, and which the case, they would find it was the principle of the division
hitherto ban not failed.
When Hon. Gentlemen said of the legislative power which proved the saviour
there was to be a constituent assembly in New South country. In 1794, a Bill passed the fe t
was thrown out
deral chamber to
Wines, and that the constitution was to be altered, with- ' stop all commerce with
Engl.t.i.n.d, b
out saying or aeeing that there should be this ccnsti- by the senate. Again, in 1190, a Bill passed the House
Want assenaWy, lie said they must preserve one of two of Representatives, giving Five° a commercial advsta-

tage over England. That Bill, also, va; thrown out in
the senate, which showed itieli, by acts like these, a con.
trolling power, holding iu check, by its wisdom and sta-
bility, the popular element, which partook too much of
popular passion, out of doors. In spite of these great
disadvantages, Washington, by means of the upper
chamber, was enablel at length to conclude a treaty of
pev,ce and amity with Great Britain. On tho,,e grounds
he hoped that, whatever the Committee might be dis-
posed to do, it would not, at the present moment, sanc-
tion the principle of the single chamber.—(Cheers.)
Colonel THOMPSON said that though it was his
original intention to vote for the amendment, yet having
heard the Noble Lord in his speech refer to a future in-
tintion of the Hon. Baronet in which he could not coin-
cide, ho would support the Bill of the Government.

-
The Con:mtttee then divided; the numbers were—
For the original clause ... 19S
Against it ... 147
Majority in favour of Government —5l
The House then resumed; the CHAIRMAN reported
progress, and ulced leave to sit again.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Lord JOHN RU 'SELL made the following state-
ment respecting the business of the House : —Sir. I think
it will be convenient to state the course which I intend
to pursue in regard to the business of the House on
Monday. I propose to allow the llon. Member fur Ta-
vistock to make his motion fir a Committee on the
duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster before the orders of
the day on Mouthy. It will he then necessary to take
a vote on account of the Ordnance E-tltnates, as the
House will not meet again till after the expiration of the
financial year. We shall take a vote, therefore, and then
postpone the Ordnance Estimates until the end of April.
It will be necessary, of course, for the House to sit on
Tuesday, to receive the report of the Committee of
Supply; and, as I find that many Members, who have
notices of motion standing for that day, are willing to'
give them up, and many Members might be able to leave
town in the course of the day if the House met early, I
propose that the House should meet at twelve o'clock on
Tuesday, and I will then give notice that the House, at
its rising, adjourns to Monday, the Bth of April. I now
propose to postpone the Chief Justices' Salary Bill till
Monday next.
The Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill was com-
mitted.
Mr. GROGAN made an attempt to procure direct
compensation fur some of the officers whose situations
would be affected by the Bill.
Sir JOHN ROMILLY suggested that the matt,er
should be left in the hands of the Lords of the Treasury.
Mr. GROGAN acquiesced.
Mr. REYNOLDS advocated compensation for the
copying and engrossing clerks.
Sir JOHN ROMILLY said that if they were entitled
to compensation, it would be competent for the Lords of
• the Treasury, under one of the clauses, to remunerate
them for the 1099 of employment.
The Bill was ordered to be reported with amendments.
The Charter Trust Bill was postponed until Mon-
day, and the Factories Bill ner.t through Committee
pro forma.
Sir W. G. CRAIG obtained leave to bring in a Bill for
erection on the Carthen ground, in the city of Edin-
burgh, of buildings for a national gallery, and other
purposes connected therewith, and with the promotion
of the fine arts in Scotland.
Mr. HEADLA.M withdrew the motion of which he
had given notice. relative to the substitution of Mr.
Headlam's name for that of Sir James Graham, on the
Committee on County Rates and Expenditure Bill.
.The House adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock.