The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-09 00:00:00

these it is pito impossiblo that 5,800,000/. •ca,a be tr.!:
-Lear.) Ho we fer-,. —o-th-er- Hon ourahic
Gentleinen may say that it is certainly not a roinctiim
-of the naval and military means of the country that is
to li,qiroposett, but that no doubt the civil servic-s rill
afford thnmeans' of that reduction. But I must, again
ask, whether- or not it is advinable; without looking et
thece several items, to say_ that you will go hick .t
estimates of 1835? With regard to many of these sub-
jec:6 public opinion has been such that the Government
Igoing with that opinion have propostal a very large in-
creme of expense. - There has been a very grot in.
crease on the subject of education; I helieve not less
tan 00,0001.• or 200,000/. Now ,do Honourable. Gnu-
`amen who de not go to these extreme lengths abuts',
reducing• the-military expenditure .propose 'to cut off
that increase? There has been another very considerable.
sum, amounting altogether to 570,0001, all of which hp
br-r-n increased for the constabulary force in Irelsnd, and
other expenses of a Similar nature. Why, that was pro-
posed =a great part of it—by the Right Hun. Gentleman
the Member for Tatnworth (Sir R. Peel), when he pro-
posed the repeal a the corn-laws, and when he put that
which had hitherto been a local eharge—a charge
• mainly atfectirg the landed interest, upon the con.
sotidaced fund. Now, does the Honourable Gen-
• tleman mean to transfer that back again from the
consolidated fund to the local rates ? Does he in-
tend to reverse the motion of the Hon. Member for
Bucks (sir. Dinraeli), and instead of transferring a large •
,sum from the local rates to the consolidated fund, do
they irtzal again to transfer these large sums from the
consolidated fund hack to the local rates? I should like
to know if any of those who voted for the motion of
the Honourable Member for litieltinghamshbe are going

to vote for thi:: motion, % hieh is a direct contradiction
f the other.--e(" Holt., hear," from an Honourable
Member, and laughter.) The Honourable Gentleman
cht era that sentiment. 'certainly voted a4a4ist the me-
tiou of the Honourable Member for Bucliingha,mshire,
for giving 2,000,000/. to the real property of the coun-
try by placing local charges on the consolidated fund;
but I certainly cannot ogres to the repeal of that Act
of 1846, to which; I think, we are bound in honour to
adhere. Well, thee, the sum of 6,000,0001. is indeed
very much reduced. With regard to upwards of two
millions of it, it consists of charged that were formerly
taken in diminution of votes, or that were on the public
revenue, or that were in, some other way net an actual
increase c,f expenditure. That accounts for nearly
2,000,0001. There is another portion which has in-
creased in the civil expenses, which I know is a portion
that this House will hardly wish to diminish. But if
Hon. Gentlemen do wish to diminish them on the occa-
sion of the miscellaneous estimates being brought for-
ward, every one of those votes not on the consolidated
find may come under the revision of this House; and at
that time Hon. Gentlemen inay propose their. motions
for reductions. There remains, therefore, but a small
part of the 6,000,0001. on which reduction can fairly be
made; and I put it to the House whether it will agree to
a general resolution that seems to pledge us to reduc-
tion of 6,000,000/., when perhaps by refusing to grant
money that would be requisite for the public service,
and not agreeing to votes which the Government should
think necessary, it might afterwards be found that two
millions was the utmost that could be reduced in the ex-
penditure.—(ilear, hear.) But then the lion. Member
ler the West Riding has a most convenier,t proviso with
respect to this motion. There seems to be on the face of
it somewhat of imprudence, in saying, that whatever
might be the state of the country—whatever the danger
that may arise iu three months, or a year, or .two years,
that you will fix beforehand what will be your exact ex-
penditure on the military forces of the country. But
then, tho Honourable Gentleman says, "Oh, yes! but
in the case of a'sy circumstances requiring extra military
prepaiaionf,, of course this resolution will be neglected,
and a larger sum will be readily voted." But if this is
really to be the case, I cannot see the use of the re iolu-

tion -I;it alt. It the House is to retain its discretion after
the resolution is passed, why should it not keep its dis-
cretion as it is now ? 'Why' not retain the power to
say, " There is an increase of expenditure absolutely
necessary fir the safety of the state ; ne are not fet-
tered by any resolution, and thercf ,re shall at once pro-
ceed to vote the amount?" Really, if it were not that the
Gentleman can't he accused of views c f that kind,
the might suppose that the Hon. Gentleman w.s open
to the accusation . sometimes made against Members
of this House, believed to be ambitious of office, namely,
that they wish to escape while in effice froth the votes
they have given before—(Laugttsr)—because with this
proviso, if the Hon. Gentleman were to become Cl ancel-
fur of the Exchequer the very next month, he might rise
and say, " that the circumitsnees of the country were
quite changed; there is no longer either a necessity or
justifioaiion for the resolution I formerly proposed, and
I must ask the House tor exactly the same votes as were
granted in previous Government.." But without accus-
ing the Honourable Gentleman of anything of that kind,
I think he has rather committed himself by some of the
speeches he has mtv!e in the country—(Cheers and
laughter from the Protectionist benches)—tn which he
said the t xpenditure has increased ten millions since
1836; it is a most profligate expenditure, and it is kept
up for the promotion cf the suns of the aristocracy—
(ttenewed cheering from the same side)—who ought to
be otherwise provided f.r, and we are bound to refuse it
any_ longer. The Honourable Gentleman has frightened
hunselt a©d the country very much with that declaration.
—(A laugh.) • He .htis not taken the pains to look into
these items; he had not found out that many of these
-charges were charges that have been on the revenue—
that many of them were for the increase of education,
and other votes for science and art, which he, as well as
others, would have been ready to assent to. And hav-
ing so done, he fin& hiraielf committed to bring before
this House the consideration of this subject. I think it
would have been much better if be had made a more

practical proposition, after a carsiul examination of all
these different cAitnates, and had somewhat retracted
the accusation that 12,000,0001. were spent in this pro-
ff gate way, end especially that the officers of the army
and navy were guilty of the mean practices that he
charged them with.—(Protectionist cheers.) Well, Sir.
having said this, I however wish to say also what I think
is really due to the lion. Member, that I believe his calling
the attention of the country to the general expenditure
of the nation has been productive of very useful results,
by enabling the Government to make reductions which
otherwise it might have found itself unable to effect; and
I don't mean to deprive the Honourable Gentleman of
any credit that may be due to him in this respect. But,
Sir, when I say this, I must altogether protest against
the, view of the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Member for Manchester (air. M. Gibson). I will not
follow the Righti Honourable Gentleman through his
views 'with regard to Greece or China; but he laid down,
as it were, as an axiom, that if any injury were done to
a British subject in any part of the globe, the proper
course for a Minister to take is not to resent that in-
jury, but to disarm altogether, and propose some reduc-
tion in the tea duties, or some other tax—(lesughier)
aod to leave British subjects altogether without protec-
tion.—(lllr. M. Gibson here interposed a remark that
was inaudible in the gallery.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
tuna says that this does not imply his meaning; but he
must recollect the old saying," Nec army sine stipendiis,
nee stipendia sine tributtt." And bow, again, are British
subjects to obtain redress, unless we maiutain a sufficient
force to sustain our claims, I really cannot imagine—l
douht whether any Minister of this country, if he were
obit, ed to say, " We don't mean to resort to force in any
case, end we have not the means of resorting to force,"
would be likely to obtain that redress for injuries ofrered
to British subjects abroad, which I must tell the Right
honourable lientleman they demand, and dementl, too,
in no very soft terms; because, in that very case of
China, when the British merchants were obliged to pay
two millions, and threatened with imprisonment and
durance, they were not slow in transmitting com-
plaints to this country, and the friends of the British
merchants at home were not slow in milking
representations the-A.- some redress ought to be obtained.
But really we have been told to night that as we have
low prices we must hare low establi6hmentt; and, in-
deed, it appears that some think we must have low views
as well--(Cheers and laughter)—that we are, in every
case where injury may be done to our commerce by any
interruption of our amicable relations with - foreign
Powers—and such an interruption ha any case I sin-
cerely regret, because I well know how mischievous it
is—but we are told that we must comply with every

..leaaand that the Governments of those countries may
think it necessary to make, while redress has been asked
for and refused. Sir, we have had no Government in
this country that has adopted that principle, no states-
man who has ever swayed the destinies of this empire
ever since the Revolution—not even that most pacific of
Ministers, Sir R. Walpole, believed that when British
subjects were injured, and had a right to ask for redress,
that that redress should be enforced, if necessary, even
by recourse to arms. It would be quite a new policy in
this country for a Minister to pursue any other course.
—(Cheers.) Sir, with regard to this motion, I believe
the House will not interpose a resolution of this kind in
the way of going int ) Committee of Supply. The Hon.
Member for the West Riding, who brought forward
this motion, is fond, I believe, of political predictions—
predictions which are not always justified by the event
—(Loud laughter)—and some of those predictions he
lately mace in a speech delivered in the country. I read
that speech with some attention, and I found that in one
part of it the Hon. Gentleman says, " Oh, the Govern-
ment will nut adopt our proposals for reduction. They
will reject all real economy. Some apparent diminution
may be made, but anything of the sort will be followed
by a subsequent increase." In another part of his speech,
the Hon. Goatleman told his auditory—" You will see
that Government in course of time will go back to the
estimates of 1835. They will reduce the estimates to
that scale, but they will not do so when we bring for-
ward our motion, because if so wo should be Ministers
in their place."—(Laughter.) Well now, but these two
predictions seem so opposed—they are so contradictory
in themselves, that it would appear as if one of them
must come right—(Hear, and laughter.) But I can
assure the House that we shall not, in the first place,
refuse to make reductions. We have been making re-
ductions since 1848. I stated that, in our military
estimates alone, in the course of two years, e e
effected a reduction of 2,ooo,oool.—(Hear, hear.) As
to offices—in the course of last week alone, two offices
fell vacant which will not be filled up, and another
ocric9 I propose to reduce next sneak, in point
of salary. Whenever occasions happen—whenever we find
that an office can ho reduced, or that the salary is ex-
cessive, we shall be ri a'ly to seize these opportunities of
retrenchment.— (Hear, hear.) As to the second predic-
tion of the I. (3e ltleman that we mean, although vi e
will not proles it, to go back to the scale of 1835—why,
I must say—
Mr. CO3DEN—WiII the Noble Lord tell me when I
mode the epee eh to which he is referring?
Lord J. LUSSELL—The rie:ch—l read it in a
newspiper—(Laughter)—but I will have the news Paper
looked fir, and bring it down to the House and read it.
—(LatiAhter and cheers.) I assure the Hon. Gentleman
that I paid great attention to his speo.3l3.—(Eli ar and
laughter.) However, I was going on to say that, not
I denying but that the estimate of 1335 might have been