The Sun.
London, England, 1857-07-08 00:00:00

NATIONAL SURVEY.

Lord ELCIIO asked the Secretary of the Treasury
upon which ecale it was intended to proceed with the
survey of towns of Ireland ? •

Mi. WILSON said the towns would be surveyed on
a scale of 10 feet to the mile, pending any further de•
cision.

NATIONAL GALLERY.
Mr. CONINGHAM asked the Secretary of the Trea-
sury whether it was the intention of the Government to
remove the National Gallery from its present site ?
Mr. WILSON, in reply, said the matter was not de-
cided, because the commission appointed to consider the
question bad not sent in its report.

THE ISTHMUS OF SUEZ CANAL.
Mr. 11. BERKELEY asked the First Lord of the
Treasury whether her Majesty' Government would use
its influence with his Highness the Sultan in support of
an application which had been made by the Viceroy of
Egypt for the sanction of the Sublime Porte to the con-
struction of a ship canal across the Isthmus of Suez, for
which a concession had been granted by the Viceroy of
Egypt to M. Ferdinand de Lesseps, and which hau re-
ceived the approbation of the principal cities, ports, and
commercial towns of the united kingdom ; and, it any
objection were entertained by her _Majesty's Govern-
ment to the undertaking to state the grounds of such
objection ?
Lord PALMERSTON—Her Majesty's Government
certainly cannot undertake to use their influence with
the Smtan to induce him to give permi,sion for the con
struction of this canal, because for the last 15 years her
Majesty's Government have used all the influence they
possess at Constantinople and in Egypt to prevent that
scheme from being carried into execution. (Hear.) It
is an undertaking which, I believe, in point of commer-
cial character, may be deemed to rank among the many
bubble schemes that from time to time have been palmed
upon gul'ible capitalists. (Hear, and a laugh) I be-
lieve that it is physically impracticable, except at an ex-
pense which would be far too great to warrant the ex-
pectation of any returns. I believe, therefore, that those
who embarked their money in any such undertaking (if
my hon. friend has any constituents who are likely to
do so) would find the.liselves very grievously deceived
by the result. However, twat is not the ground upon
which the Government have opposed the scheme. Pri-
vate individuals are left to take care of their own inte-
rests, and if they embark in impracticable undertakings
they must pay the penalty of so doing. But the scheme
is one hostile to the interests of this country—opposed
to the standing policy of England in regard to the con-
❑exion of Egypt with Turkey—a policy which has been
supported by the war and the Treaty of Paris. The ob-
vious political t-ndency of the undertaking is to render
more easy the separation of Egypt from Turkey. It is
founded, also, on remote speculations with regard to
easier access to our Indian possessions which I need
not more distinctly shadow forth, because they will
be obvious to anybody who pays any attention to
the suLject. I can only express my surprise that M.
Ferdinand de Lesseps should have reckoned so much
on the credulity of English capitalists as to think
that by his progress through the different counties
he should succeed in obtaining English money for the
promotion of a scheme which is every way so adverse to
British interests. (Hear.) That scheme was launched,
I believe, about 15 years ago, as a rival to the railway
from Alexandria by Cairo to Suez, which, being infinitely
more practicable and likely to be more useful, obtained
the pre eminence ; but probably the object which M. de
Lesseps and some of the promoters have in view will be
accomplished, even if the whole of the undertaking should
not be carried into execution. (Hear and a laugh.) If
my hon. friend the member for Bristol will take my ad-
vice, he will have nothing to do with the scheme in ques-
tion. (Hear.)
METROPOLITAN TURNPIKES. _

Lord R. GROSVENOR asked whether it was the in.
tention of the Government to take steps towards the ap
pointment of commissioners to inquire into the best me
thod of removing the tollbars now situated in the metro
polig, pursuing the plan which had been adopted in re
gard to those in the metropolis of Ireland and its vicinity.
Lord PALMERSTON said that no doubt it would be
very desirable to accomplish the object which his noble
friend had in view, and that it should therefore receive
the consideration of her Majesty's Government. Se
ich wtas
not prepared at present to state the method by wh i
would be best attained, but the Government would place
themselves in communication with the trustees of the
metropolitan turnpikes to see what measures would be
necessary. (Elem., hear.)
COMPENSATION TO BRITISH MERCHANTS.
Mr. ADAMS asked the First Lord of the Treasury
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Govern.
ment to introduce any measure enabling them to grant
compensation to British merchants whose property at
Uleaborg, in the. Gulf of Bothnia, was destroyed on June
2, 1854, by the boats of a squadron under the command
of Admiral Plumridge ?
Lord PALMERSTON, in reply, said that was a case
which cane under the principle of international law,
which he had stated, the other evening, in reference to
the losses suffered by
.B4itish subjects at Greytown.
Persons who were residing in Russia, though British
subjects, would have to take the chances of the Russian
empire, if by hostilities the place where they were resid-
ing became the scene of warlike operations, and no claim
could be set up by those persons against the Government
whose forces carried on the hostilities by which they hap-
pened to be sufferers..
BENGAL MILITARY FUND.
Viscount GODERICH called attention to the present
state of the Bengal Military Fund, and to the relations
existing between the East India Company and that fund,
and to move for a select committee to inquire into
the subject. The fund was one which had been founded
by the officers of the Indian army for charitable
purposes, and supported by their subscriptions and
by certain sums voted by the East India Company.
In consequence of the recent occurrences in India, he
did not intend to push the motion, as it might have the
appearance of embarrassing the Indian Government,
but he Should reserve to himself the right to bring for:

ward the matter on a futuro and augniciouA occasion:
Tian noble lird concluded by moving Ilia resolution pro
fortna,

Mr. VERNON SMITH said that the question as it
3od at present was, that in June last the court of
directors had, without his consent, sent out a despatch
stating that although they did not wave their claim of
right, to give or withhold any further contribution to
that fund, at the same time, it in the course of a few
years from 1856 it should appear that the revenue of
the fund shoull not be able to meet the ci arges, they

would be inclined to consider whether they could not
make some further consideration.

Mr. MANGLES expressed his appreciation of the
motive which had induced the officers of the Indian
ecru and the noble lord, not to press the question at the
presvut juncture, and expressed his belief that there
was every willingnef.s on a) part of the court of direc-
tors to meet the matter in a liberal spirit.
The motion was then withdrawn.

THE LORD LIEUTENANCY OF IRELAND.
Mr. ROE BUCK thou rose and said—Sir, I rise to bring
forward a motion for the ah lition of the offs of Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland under most auspicious circum-
taoces. NA that I mean it wilt be so considered by the
hou:e, but that I mean it ought to be so considered.
My late lamented friend Mr. Hume very often
pressed this proposition on the house. He brought it
forward under very diffi2olt circumstances. Ire'and in
1824 was in a state of confusion almost unprecedented.
In 1830 he also brought forward the propo,ition.
1844, at the time of the monster meetings of Mr. O'Cor.
nell, he submitted it to the house ; and io 1850 the
then Prime Minister, Lord J. Russell, submitted a bill
with the same object to this house, which was carried in

this house, under the most disastrous circumstances.

Ireland was then subject to the consequencrs of the
most dire famine that ever visited that unhappy country.
But now how different are the circumstances. Ireland

is a part—an integral part of England, governed as Eng-
land is, subject to no political or natural misfortune. She
i 3 now happy in her Government—in her internal and

external circumstances—she is, in fact, a flourishing
country, and has nothing to cornpliin of. I say this
boldly. I say that Ireland is a part—an integral part
of the great country to which she now belongr, and has
nothing to complain of in her Government, ex:ept in

respect to the one matter which I an' about to bring
under the consideration of the house. (Hear.) This

house has often been called on to abolish the office of
Lord-Lieutenant•of Ireland—and vhy ? There are many

sorts of alliances between countries. There may be a

federal association, such as exists in the United States of
America. That is an association, if I may so express
myself, of integers; but that is not the present associa-
tion of Ireland with England. Ireland ought to form
part of an association of fractions. We do not say the
united kingdoms but the united kingdom of Great
Britain and Ireland ; and Ireland ought to be a frac-

tional part of the great country to which ehe be-

Longs. She is nct and ought not to be considered

an independent country ; and in so saying, let not
gentlemen from Ireland fancy that I have any wish to say
anything offensive to them. Upon this point I may ap-
peal to my long political career, and I will say that if one
word or act of mine could be found derogatory to Ireland

I should be ashamed of myself. (Hear, hear.) I think,
then, I may appeal to my past career, for everything
proposed in this house in order to make Ireland equal to

England has had my most strenous support. Therefore,
iu proposing, as I now do, that we take from her what I

consider the last badge of subj action, I aw not doing her
an offence or disadvantage, but an advantage and bene-
fit. (Hear. hear.) What do I seek to do ? I have said
there are various sorts of alliances. The federal alliance

Ireland does not now pretend to maintain. Before 1800,
when there was a Parliament in Ireland, she might be
said to be a kingdom of herself ; but the moment she

consented—and-she did—to do away with her Parliament
—(Here some one among the Irish representatives, Mr.
Napier, we believe, intimated dissent)—My hon. friend

shakes his head ;but I say she did consent.

IVas it not

a Protestant Parliament that consented I Ido not mean

,o say that means were not employed, disgraced ulto

land Wand to those who employed them, to obtain that

consent ' • but still the Protestant Parliament repre-
senting Ireland consented to the union, and thereby
the condition of Ireland as a separate and indepen-
dent nation was entirely done away with. She

consented to be a fractional part of a great whole—
the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
and what I now; seek to do is to make Ireland

the right arm of England. I want every county
in Ireland to be like a county in England, and every
parish in Ireland to be like a parish in England, and that
she should not call herself Ireland, but a part of the
united kirgdom of Great Britain and Ireland. I ask
what benefit does Ireland derive from her present ano-
malous condition 1 She has a viceroy—a papier machd
sort of royalty. What does the Viceroy of Ireland do
for Ireland ? I will tell you. He is the focus of intrigue
in Dublin. He makes Ireland dependent, not on her
own individual exertions, but on the Government. All
those who can afford it run to Dublin, and anybody who
knows anything of Dublin knows the sort of scenes that
take place before the Lord-Lieutenant there. In London

and in England the profession of the law is one of bro•

therhood, and there are many hon. and learned gentle-
men sitting on the opposite benches who are friends and
intimates of mine. I never asked whether they were
Tories, Whigs, or Radicals, but I have learnt to my utter
astonishment and dismay, that gentlemen on this side of
the house who are Attorneys and Solicitors General for
Ireland have never met in private society with the At-
torneys and Solicitors General for Ireland on the other

side of the house. The gentlemen who are now Attorney
and Solicitor General for Ireland never met, I under-
stand, my right hon. friend opposite (Mr. Napier, we
believe, was ailuded to) in private society. Now, I be
lieve that this is the result of an influence emanating
from the existence of a Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. I
believe that the existence in Dablin of that functionary
keeps apart all the elements of society in Ireland. It is
a sort 01 negative electricity. I would ask, too, what
is the expense caused by this tinsel monarch I (Hear.)
My late friend Mr. flume said, and I believe truly, that
it took 100,0001. a year to keep up that sham monarch.
But that is not all. There is a divided responsibility. I

would ask how is Ire:aud governed now f Firit, there
is the Home Secretary, a Cabinet Minister ; next, there
is the Lord Lieutenant, who is not a Cabinet Minister,

but a Viceroy ; and then there is the secretary of the
Lord Lieutenant in this house. All these three persons
are really the governors of Ireland, but not one of them
is in connexion with the other, and nobody is respon-
sible for anything done. (Hear, bear.) I say that this is
a great mischief. Tae Lord Lieutenant is a mere sham.
He goes to Ireland, and what does be do ? There are
certain func.ions of government that belong to the Im-
perial Government of the country. Now, the Imperial
Government ought to be here. I know lam saying that
which to Irish ears is grating and harsh, but recollect
that we have before our eyes the example of a country
united with England under far different circumstances
from those in which Ireland was united--namely, Scot-

land. Now, Dublin is at present no further from Lon-
don than Edinburgh, but at the time when Scotland was
united with England Edinburgh was in reality three
weeks' journey from London, and then no viceroy was
placed in Scotland. See the change effected by the
electric telegraph and the railways— Dublin is
brought within eleven or twelve hours' communication
with London. Compare that with the three weeks'
journey to Edinburgh, when Scotland was made an
integral part of England. Let not, then, any Irish
gentleman suppoEe that I mean anything offensive.
What I mean is that Ireland should be part of
England—really a part, and I think I may appeal to my
own political career to show that I do not want to im•
pose on Ireland anything which England does not bear.
I want an equal law for Irishmen and Englishmen. I
don't want the distinction of Irishmen to exist. Cork
ought to be like York. (A laugh.) There ought to be no
difference between the great county of York and the
great county of Cork, except that one is somewhat more
distant from London than the other ; but to tell me that
there is any difficulty in governing Ireland in consequence
of its distance, is to tell me that our forefathers were un-
able to govern Scotland. Now, is that true t Has not
the union of Scotland with England been of the greatest
benefit to the former country ? Depend upon it—however_
painful it may be to Irish gentlemen to hear such an
opinion—the union of Ireland and England would be
attended with thew
usurpation,
emaor utmost benefith as been
eto
e n adespotism, Ireland.as
disgraces
rTheega
trhistory
e..
of this country, so far as Iraland is concerned, up to
n
ancerdeek
eeha
aveesenet t beenethnleiyirt passed.i ws
Titlesho reallyc.,Coer-
cion ee
rt..
liwa:nutsdh:i have marked eumreyal Cruelty,
d every
ccos
opposed
penc
offensive
ssAewi
vdcee t have,ba
uctth e btaohapt
odphs
eaeyr reformed
acts.rwas
g ats
Nobody opposed the latter measure more strenuously
than I did. I think mine was the first voice raised against
the proposal, and if there be any mischief arising from
that act I think its consequences will defend Ireland
from any repetition of such a measure. What have we
seen within a few days past? We have seen a right rev.
esttlheTrpeehPleEeaf English dominion ; but
prelate of the Catholic Church of Ireland claiming the
title of Archbishop of Tuaw, and you have not dared to
put in force the act of Parliinient you were foolish
enough to pass. He boldly asserted that he was Arch-
bishop of Team. Now, if any offence can be committed
under the act this is one. (Hear, hear.) Is there any mail
bold enough—is there any man insane enough—to endea7
your to enforce that act against the right rev. prelate 3
I perceive by the working of the lace
of
friend the member for North Warwickshire (Mr.
Spooner), that he does not like tbis. laugh.)
I take
it to be one of the strongest proofs of the truth of what
I assert that, although the right rev, prelate has called
himself Archbishop
entertains such strong
niadeistheeefpe,roaveidsiotnhset oniotihnet
intervention
of of Tfeuealimeg,
feelings
themy shuohni.eefrti,endede,
does not
deartyre,
tthoeeptutthinato
of this kind will be repeated. (Hear, hear.) Now, whet
injury, I ask, can possibly arise to Ireland from the
abolition of the office of Lord-Lieutenant ? I have beep
threatened with opposition by my hon. friend the mem-
plereralat
ber for the University of Dublie, and I can understand
why he opposes my proposal. He represents Dablin.
He represents the milliners—(loud laughter)—and I can
understand that those ladies will be very strongly op-
posed to any proposal which will abolish the sham of
the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland. (" Hear," and a
laugh.) There is, however, something I cannot under.
stand, and that is, why my hon. and learned friend the
meniter for Yarmouth (Mr. M'Culisgh) intends to move
" the previous question" upon my proposition. Now,
what is the previous question 1" It is, in fact, saying,
"I agree in what you say, but the time at which you pro.
nouact your doctrine ie uppropitions.! (Hear, hear.)

That is the real meaning of " the previous question"—
(Hear, hear ;)—but I ask this house—l ask right hon.
gentlemen on the Treasury bench—is the present an un•
propitious time for bringing this question under the con•
eideration of Parliament? Is not Ireland quiet Is
tbere not peace throughout the whole of that country ?
Are not all the various classes of Ireland in a
prosperous condition. I venture to say that
if at any time you could propound with safety a
change in the Government of Ireland it is at the present
13I°en m t, and I a therefore astonished at the course
honor . and learned friend intends to
which my
adopt. I could understand a bold persistent . denial of
the value of the change a hick I propose. I s could not
have much regard for the intellect of the man who ven-
tured each denial—(a laugh)—but still I should understand
A. I cannot, however, understand an hon. gent eman
who says, "I admit the truth of your proposition, but
I think you bring it forward at an unpropitious period."
Unpropitious ! Why, is the present time as unpripi-
tious as 1850 ? I have in my hand a curious document
relative to the propo=al made in 1850 by the noble mem-
ber for the city of London—whom I am afraid is not
present—then Prime M,nieter—for abolishing the office
of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland and estahlishi g a fourth
Secretaryship of State. I have here the names of the
members of the present Government who voted in 1850
for the bill of the noble lord (Lord J. Re-Isell), and I
will read them for the satisfaction and edification of the
House. (" Hear, hear," and a laugh.) I will take
them in alphabetical order. They are,—Mr. M. T.
Baines, the Hon. E. P. Bouverte, Lor i E. Bruce, the
Hon. W. F. Cowper, Viscount Duncan, Sir G. grey,
Mr. W. a Hayter—(laughter)—Mr. H. A. Herbert,
Mr. E. Horsruan, Mr. R. Keating, Mr. H.
Labouchere, Mr. G. C. Lewis, Mr. W. Nlonsell,
Lord Mulgrave, Mr. R. O•borne, Lord A. Paget, the
Hon. E. H. Stanley (now Lord Stanley of Alderley),
the Hon. C. Villiers Mr. J. Wilson, the Right Hon.
Hear,"Sir C. Wood. ("f and a laugh.) There are now
living six gentlemen who have been secretaries to the
Lord-Lieutenants of Ireland. Four of those gentlemen
are Irishmen, and all six voted for the a.'oolition of the
office of Lord• Lieutenant. They were the Right lion.
H. Labouchere, Sir J. Young, Mr. Horsman, Mr. H. A.
Herbert, Lord Naas, and Sir W. S ,rnervale. Lord J.
Russell being at that time Prime Minister, must have
brought in the bill to which I refer with the approba-
tion of his Cabinet, and among the members of the Ca-
binet who must he regarded as persons acquiescing in,
agreeing to, and approving of the measure of the noble
lord, I find the right hon. Sir F. Baring, Lord J. Russell
himself, Lord Clarendon, and lastly the name of Lord
Palmerston. (Hear, and laughter.) It so happens that
Lord Palmerston did not vote upon the question, but
still I have a right to assume that he approved the pro-
ceedings of his chief, I cannot suppose he would with-
hold his vote for the purpose of saying subsequently that
he did not approve the measure ; neither can I suppose
it possible-that any of the gentlemen who now grace the
Treasury bench will so far forget themselves and their
former votes as to oppose my proposition. (Hear, and a
laugh.) I can't imagine that they will so far forget what
is due to their p sitian as members of the Governmen',
as members of this house, as representatives of the
people, as honest men—(hear)—as to forego and forswear
their words, and to vote against me on this occasion,
even upon the pretence of the " previous question."
(Hear.) Mine is a plain and simple proposition. It is to
do away with the Lord-Lieutenancy of Ireland ; it is an
appeal to the house to make Ireland really a part of the
great kingdom to which she belongs, and to abolish the
last badge of conquest ; for recollect that Ireland was not
united to England in the same manner as Scotland.
(Hear, hear.) Scotland had never been conquered ; she
stood upright before us, and met us onequal terms ; she
was united as a kingdom over which we never pretended
to exercise real control. That was not the case will
Ireland. Unhappily for her—unhappily for ourielves—
we conquered Ireland ; we introduced into that country
a system of rule that was a disgrace to England ; bu
happily for Ireland, and happily for this country, we
have outgrown the mischief and the misery of conque,A.
(Hear.) We are now a united people ; and I ask this
house to do away with the last badge of slavery which
we imposed upon Ireland, to abolish the Lord-Lieuten
ancy of that country, and to make her what she ought to
be—a fractional pan of the great kingdom to which she
belongs. I therefore move without hesitation, "That in
the opinion of this house the effice of Lord Lieutenant
of Ireland ought to be abolished." (C leers.)
Mr. HADFIELD seconded the motion.

The SPEAKER having put tne question,
Mr. M.`CU.LLAGH said his objections to the motion
were twofold. First, that it was not a proper mode of
dealing with this important question ; and 2dly, that the
session was so far advanced that it would be impossible,
if the house affirmed the proposition, to introduce a bill
founded thereon, and pass it into a law thee session. The
motion of the hon, and learned memb r for Sheffield,
whilst it proposed to abolish the office cf Lord Lieute-
nant in Ireland, did not propose a eubetitute, neither had
he shadowed forth a plan. Since the union, 120 statutes
had been passed with reference to Ireland, 50 of which
applied exclusively to that country on every subject of
legislation. Even now, when so mach eas said about
the identification of interests, there was great difficulty in
applying English legislation to Ireland, and a greater
dislike to extend the principles of Irish legislation to
England, as was shown last session, when it was pre-
poeed to establish a constabulary throughout England.
Then, again, there was in Ireland a stipendiary magis-
tracy, which it was not proposed to extend to England
On a review of all the circumstances, and having again
reiterated his objections to the motion, he called on the
house to support him in moving the previous question.
Mr. GROGAN objected to the amendment as a post-
ponement of the question, considering the house should
at once come to a decision upon it, He opposed the mo-
tion of the heir), and learned member for Sheffield, which
was simply an abstract proposition to abolish the office
without any areurnents in its favour.
Mr.-WHITESIDE said that it it would be the means
of procuring complete identification of legislation for the
t wo countries, he would readily vote for the motion of the
hon, and learned member for Sheffield; but believing it
would not produced the desired effect, he would vote
against it. He admitted the government of Ireland was
badly managed, but before the office of Lord-Lieutenant
was abolished, there were many things connected with
it that required serious consideration. He certainly was now so enthusiastic in its retention as he was in his
younger days:; and when a 'plan was proposed for its
abolitihnehe would give it his most earnest attention.
The tranquillity of Ireland must not be taken as an in-
dication of the people being contented with the system
of government adopted there, and he assured the house
that if Ireland was as far distant as Canada, the ex-icu-
tive government might be blown down as eas ly as a
house of cardss (Hearn lie considered that the policy
adopted in the government of Ireland was erroneous.
They could not agitate—it was against their principle.
(Laughter.)- But-they hoped to gain such a numeric&
strength in_ "at 'house that they could compel the
miniettye with or 'without a Lord-Lieutenant, to govern
Ireland properly. No material authority was exercised
by the Irish executive. Any material improvement was
burdened by the circumlocution office.
Sir W. SOMERVILLE said that nothing bad been
advanced by any hon. gentleman on the other side, with
one exception, in favour of the maintenance of the Lord
Lieutenancy. The office was a very ancient one, and
one that esuld not hastily be got rid of. But if this vote
should be passed, it would be for the Government to con-
sider what steps should be taken to prepare for its aboli-
tion. He remembered when the noble lord the member
for the City of London had advocated the abolition of
the Lord-Lieutenancy. He regretted that the noble lord
was not in his place, hut he knew that while the noble
lord would not press the matter to the present inconve-
nience of the Government, his opinion on the question
had undergone no change. A great deal had been said
against centralnation, but these were times when cen-
tralisation would be an advantage. The pre-ent sye
tern was roundabout and urea' istactory. (Rear, hear.)
Ireland was governed by a double executive, and the
two weakened each other. He complained of the in-
decency of the constantly recurring condemnation by one
viceroy of the conduct of his predecessor. It had
been said that the lord-lieut-nancy was nece-sary to
the maintenance of the court in Ireland, but he
asked what difference there was in this respect between
the relation between England and Ireland, and that
between England and Scotland ? and why, if the re-
moval of the court from the former country bad not
been injurious, any evil should he apprehended from it,
in Ireland 57 years after the Union ? So far from ab-
sentees being increased by the abolition of the office, he
thought it would be very materially diminkhed. The
removal of the Lord-Lieutenancy would not de-nation-
alise Ireland, but would unprovincialise her ; she would
be as much a nation and more imperial. lie agreed
with the honourable member for Sheffield that it would
be removing a badge of conquest, and he should net re-
cede from his vote of 1850, but shOuld support the mo-
tion of Mr.*Reehuck. Mr. VANCE sail that if he did not think the removal
of the Viceroy wool i as injuriously affect the whole
country as it would the city of Dublin, he should not
oppose it for the sake of one city, but as he held it
would be injurious to the interests of the country, he
would oppose the motion to the last.
Mr. BAG WELL should bane expected from the great
reformer of the day something better than th
down of an existing institution. A very chime purl ng
fel ow
might pull down, nut it required an archeectßYto
build
up. It was injudicious to propose a reform not called
for by the people. Some of the hon. gentlemen who
bad spoken in favour of the motion were Irishmen, but
strangely, had been unable to obtain seats for their
native places. They sat as English members and spoke
as Englishmen. Unless the Irish people made a move
in this direction it was not competent for Englishmen to
legislate on the question. The Parliament which car-
ried the act of Union could not fairly be called an Irish
Parliament. Toere never was a country so swindled
out of its rights as Ireland at te,. e time of the Union,
which, indeed, was neceeeary, but which was carnee by
unfair mean., and the people of Ireland were net ready
consulted on the question. He hoped the hou-e woul i
consider this question in cinnecon with the feel-
inre'4—the prejudices, if they would—of the.
.Irish peon
ple. would be quite time to h gotta e upon.
the subject, when the people of Ireland expressed an
°Pinion, and that any measure thet might be introduced
sheuld peoceed from the Government
' te
preveindividual, (Hear.) instead of from a
Mr, MAGUIRE repudiated the morbid i,entimen- I
talities gentlenaen would weep over the abolitien
of the. Lord-Lieutenancy, but who would the lost liberties of their country—of those eh°
would not mourn I
were indifferent when the grn eat Parli rn house of I
Ireland was converted into al3ali, and whoa
ent
in resisting the national appeal on behalf "er
but
;foremost
of liberty who were now so anxious about the retention of a 'sham
royalty and a mock court. Ho was unwilling that a
len into
subject. of this minor importance should beswollen
one of pr;mnary ilia,gretude, and lie was hound to saw--
wheteeer unpopularity he might gein by it in Leonine_
thantbe &ilea and able exposition of the right hou.

member for Canterbury had made a considerable imprea- .
sion upon his mind. The two hon. members whir re-
presented the millinery interest of Dublin (a laugh) bad,
no doubt conscienti•msly discharged their duty faith-
fully to the " shamocracy" of that city ; but he pro-
tested against the exaggerations of which he had been
guilty. One of them hal spoken of the Lord-Lieute-
pints as the promoters of the arts, science, and commerce
of Ireland. (Rear, hear from Mr. Vance.) Why, in
what parts of Ireland did commerce flourish ? Was it
Dublin, or was it in Belfast, or in Cork? What had
the Lord-Lieu enant ever done to promote commerce?
Thank God ! there was no Lord-Lieutenant in Belfast,
sal he was sure be was delighted that there was none in
Cori-. They got on well there ; their merchandise and
trade prospered, and they were not a whit less
saw the intelli-
gent or independent because they never
Lord-
Lieutenant. They wanted neither a Carlisle nor an
Ee,inton to make them industrious, intelligent, enter-
pr ls i
ground
7'n, and an hon. gentleman could only be excused on
the ' of excess of zeal who told them, whir knew
that the office wasa sham, that the Lord-Lieutenant had
promoted the. commerce of Ireland. The other hon. mem-
ber for Dubin stated that the tranquillity and prospe-
rity of Ireland were attributable to the fjord-Lieutenant.
Was not that immense exaggeration ? He didn't hesitate
to say that it was downright blasphemy. (A. laugh.) He
repeated it most deliberately, the prosperity of Ireland was
owing to the Greet Being who presided over the destinies of
mankind. He had given them abundance. He had
blessed their harvests. It was that Great Being who had
removed the load of misery-from the hearths and homes of
the people of Ireland, and the Viceroy had in no way con-
ti ibuted to bring about that happy change which he (Mr.
Maguire) as a CM istian man recognised and attributed to
the mercy of God alone. (Hear.) He contended, then, that
the attempt to trace thee,' blessings to a mock sceptre and
a sham Court was downright palpable blasphemy. He had
no doubt that the Government were much indebted to the
present Viceroy, because he fully admitted that he had
made himself most popular in Ireland. The noble lor.t
ha i mastered the national dances—(a laugh) —and he did
verily believe that he was equal to anything in that way,
from the,daeh and splendour of Sir Roger de Coverley to
the intricate mysteries of the double shuffle. He was sure
the noble lord had mastered these dances out of respect to
the people, and in order to place himself upon a good foot-
ing with them, (Laughter.) He had done as much also to
eulogise Irish bulls, and to indicate the points and perfec-
tions of Lish pigs, as any viceroy who had ever gone there.
(Renewed laughter.) Moreover, he had spoken in the most
amiable way of the national trades, and he had done great
service to the Government in a political way, for not even
Coppock was a better electioneerer than Lord Carlisle. The
noble lord, so far as it was possible for a lord-lieutenant to
be so, was omnipresent during the elections, in county and
in borough. Nothing was too great f r his genius, nothing
too small for his power of detail. There was not a borough
in the country but, he had a finger in the pie. (A laugh.)
The noble lord, then, was undoubtedly a good electioneerer;
but what benefit he had ever conferred upon the people of
Ireland bad yet to b 3 discovered. He (Mr. Maguire) had
occasionally gone to the castle, not to bow and scrape before
sham Majesty, but upon public business, when the Lord-
Lieutenant hal been obliged to admit practically the
mockery of which he was the embodiment ; for it was evi-
dent to every one upon those occasions that the Viceroy
was a kind of past-office, an electric wire through which
a message might be sent, a vehicle for conveyance, but no-
thing more. "I am not of the Cabinet, I must consult
the Cabinet," was the only answer he could give. In the
same way the Secretary for Ireland, if any representations
were ma le to him, was obliged to confess that he, too, was
a mockery, or scarcely anything better. He could not
venture to express an opinion of his own; all he could do
was to promise to consutt his superiors. (Hear, hear) He
had come to the conclusion that there must be some re-
sponsibile officer placed on a level with the other members
of the Cabinet, to whom Irishmen could go to represent
the wants of the country, and by whom something like
authority would be exercised. So long as some arrange-
ment of that sort were not made Ireland would continue
to he in that degraded and anomalous position to which
the hon. member for Dublin apprehended she would fall if
the Lord-Lieutenant were withdrawn. As to the removal
of the courts of law, he should resist such a proposal by all
means in his power, and he believed it had been shown
pretty clearly that the diversity of the laws made it
utterly impossible that the courts of England and Ireland
, could be amalgamated. Then it was said that Dublin
would be injured by the withdrawal of the Lord-Lieuten-
ant. He had once an idea of that sort before he had given
much attention to the subject, but he did not think so
' now. No doubt it would be a blow to that bastard aris-
tera.cy, that wretched assumption of gentility, utterly at
variance with honourable industry and independence,
which was generated in Dublin by this miserable abortion
of a Court. (Hear, hear.) There was more real independ-
ence in any little town in Ireland than in Dublin. The in-
fluence of the Castle was most injurious to Ireland, but in
nothing was it felt more seriously than in the
den ovelisation of Dublin society. There was wretched
ostentation• and glitter without, and hard miserly pinching
within. The gentleman of 7001. or SOO/. a year was not
contented unless he could get his di"ghters presented
at the Castle. He came up to Dublin, hired a house, and
in or ler to keep pace with the ambitious barrister and the
aspiring attorney he had to screw his miser able tenants, and
in the end became himself a patriotic pauper -all to bask
in the smiles of a Carlisle or an Eglinton. (Laughter.) He
did not, however, intend to vote for the motion of the hon.
and learned member for Sheffield, (Loud laughter.) He
was aware that this declaration was not a very logical de-
duction from his speech, and the laughter of hon. gentlemen
did not take him by surprise. But he should not support
the motion for the reasons given by the hon. gentleman
who had moved the previous question, and for the reasons
which would actuate the majority of those who were about
to vote against the motion. He did not believe that there
were 10 gentlemen who were in favour of the retention of
the Lor I-Lieutenant. (Cries of "Oh !") Were there 20,
then? There were certainly not more who, if it were put
to a plain question of aye or no, should the Lord-Lieute-
nant be retained or not, would vote aye. But the hon.
member for Sheffield was not in a position to offer an equi-
valent. The Government alone were in that position, and
until some definite substantial plan were laid before Par-
liament, he should not vote for any such motion as this.
The hon. member for Dublin, who last spoke (Mr. Vance)
had done more than any one else to show the true ratan)
of the Dublin feeling in favour of the retention of the
office. He made it a great national question ; but what
did he ask ! Compensation for Dublin ; not for bereaved
Cork, or for heartstricken Belfast, but only for widowed
Dublin about to lose her Carlisle. (Load laughter.) To
speak in official language, he was ready to give his "best
and fairest consideration" to any motion which came legiti-
mately before the house, backed with the weight of the
authority of its proposers, and not proceeding from a private
member, who could do nothing to carry out his proposition,
When a definite plan was thus laid before the house he
should be prepared to support it, and to run all the risk
of the terrible consequences—the destruction of Irish
nationality and the extinction of the Irish race, which the
hon. member for Dublin apprehended would flow from the
withdrawal of this miserable sham of a Court. It had been
said on a former occasion that this measure would drive
all the gantry from Dublin; but the answer given by the
noble lord the member for London to that was that it
would be far better for them to be on their own estates
minding their own business, and he was old-fashioned
enough to agree in that opinion, The hon. member for
Dublin complained that not even a baron would be left in
Dublin. The solitary Irish duke was gone, all the mar-
quises were gone, nobody was left but a baron and a bishop,
anti these, too, would depart with the Lord-Lieutenant.
But if the withdrawal of the splendid Court of a Viceroy
would drive all these great people away from Dublin, how
was it that it didn't keep them in Dublin now that it
was there? (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding his objections
to the retention of the Viceroyalty, he should, for the rea-
eons he had stated, vote on the present occasion for the
previous question.
Mr. HORSMA.N said that the hon. and learned gentle-
man the member for Enuiskillen had stated that the Lord-
Lieutenant:hacl made appointments in Irelaral to which the
Secretary of State for the Home Department would never
be a party. With that flash of eloquence the hon. and
learned gentleman had vanished, and had not since ap-
peared in the house. It had been constantly urged that
the appointments of the present Lord-Lieutenant had been
given almost exclusively to Roman Catholics; but the
fact was, that in point of numbers, emolument, and in-
fluence, the great majority of the appointments of the pre-
sent Lord-Lieutenant had been given to Protestants. When
the present Lord-Lieutenant went to Ireland he male the
arrangement that, in regard to appointments, personal
qualities and services should be the first cl den, end poli-
tical influence the second ; and during the two years he
held office that rule was not, as far as he was aware, de-
parted from in a single instance. (Hear, hear.) In
the case of as‘istant barristers, the appointments were
of that kind that even those who were disappointed
spontaneously declared their conviction of the high
moral effect which must be produced throughout
the country by such excellent nominations. (Hear, hear.)
it must be recollected that a few years since Ireland was a
mystery and embarrassment to all. Since that she has ex-
perienced a famine and a rebellion, but she had since had
good seasons. Ireland was, however, an agricultural coun-
try, and should there be bad seasons, he was afraid we
might find that her temporary prosperity had concealed
weaknesses which there had not been time to eradicate,
and thus Ireland might again become to us a source of
great anxiety, embarassment and expense. (Hear, hear.)
He therefore thought they should approach any hasty
changes in the government of Ireland with great caution.
The question had been put in many ways by various
speakers, but he should wish to look at it in an Irish point
of view, and to inquire whether Can existing executive
tended to conduce to the good government and well-being
of the Irish people. He objected altogether to the pro-
posal in reference to the law courts, for heibelieved that the
expenses ef bringing suitors, solicitors, end others to Lon-
don would be ruinous, and that the removal of the courts
would be tantamount to their abolition. It would be im-
ipossible for the Government to adopt the resolution of the
Ihon. and learned gentleman, because if the resolution were
carried, the lord lieutenancy would be condemned, and it
would be the duty of the Government to provide an equi-
valent. With the carrying of the resolution; the responsi-
bility of the hon. and learned gentleman end the house
would cease, but with the adoption of the resolution, the
responsibility of the Government would commence. So
long, therefore, as the Government were unprepared to pro-
vide an equivalent, it would be imperative upon them to
oppose the resolution which had been submitted. He
thought this was a question which might well be left for
future consideration, and for a future declaration on the
Part of the Government as to the course they would think
it desirable to pursue.
Mr. P. O'BRIEN looked upon the question as one of
contract, for at the time of the union the Irish
people were assured that the Lord Lieutenancy should be
established,
sham court in rela b 9 retained,
and it Was the opinion of the people new that
the office should retained. It was idle to talk of a
Mr. BLAKE
enaacondemned:. the hon. member (Mr. Maguire)
for his slightieg remarks on those noblemen who had lately
filled the Lord Lieuten
ntocyL of Ireland. He thought Ire-
land was much indebted
their great exertions in its betdlaf Eglinton and Carlisle for
(li
Lord PALMERSTON—There is
noedaer4ing the impor-
tance of the question which the hon. and learned member
for Sheffield has brought under the
consideration
house. It is one with respect to
which, however,
who entertain opposite opinions might equally vote for the
of the
y the
those
I motion of the hon. gentleman who has moved
1 question; because my hon. and learned friend w feereaaviaous
the original motion has thrown down on the floor of the
house an abstract resolution, -which, if it were adopted b
the house, ought to be follo*ed up by some practical mea-
sure for 'carrying the resolution into effect. But my hon.
and learned friend leaves to others the task of finishing
that which he wishes to begin ; anda without sue"-- • -

.AvVernmont o

auy airangerneut whatever by which the
Ireland is to be carried on, sineul-
e nolusion of the session.

proposes, towards th(
.tealutiou the effect of which i,

to condemn the existing state of things—to lender that
state of thins inefficient for the pnrp)ses of government
during a long course of time, and then abstains even from
hinting at the arrangement he would substitute for it.
Now, I think that is a very inconvenient mole of dealing
with a great and important question of this nature. It is

very well for hon. gentlemen to propose abstract resolu-
tions,and to leave it to the Government—if the house

should affirm such resolutions—to devise means of carrying
them into effect; but I conceive that this is not, the manner
in which grave questions of this kind ought to be treated
in the discussions of Parliament. I think, if any hon. gen-
tleman has satisfied his o wn mind that the L ird-Lieutenancy
of Ireland ought to cease, he is bound, when he makes such
a proposition to the house, to suggest for its consideration
such an arrangement as he thinks calculated to supply the
place of the system which he asks the house immediately
and by a single resolution to condemn. With regard to
the question itself, I am bound to say that it is
one which is surrounded with great difficulties. It is quite
true that in 1850 the Government of the day not only pro-
posed the abolltiot of the office of Lord-Lieutenant, but at
the same time suggested a plan for the administration of
affairs of Ireland upon the cessation of that office. The
hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Roebuck) mentioned the
names of the members of the Government who voted on
that occasion. He also mentioned the names of those who
must be supposed to have con :urred in the measure, and
aTong them he mentioned mine. I don't know at this
moment how it happened that I was not present at the di-
vision ; but, undoubtedly, as a member of the Government,
I concurred with may colleagues in the measure which was
then submitted to -,he house. Difficulties arose, however,
with regard to the system which was proposed as a substi-
tute for the Lord Lieutenancy, and those difficulties were
so serious that the measure was dropped, and a similar
proposition has not since been submitted to Parliament.
I confess that I, fcr one, am not prepared at the present
moment to propose any arrangement which would be satis-
factory, as a substitute for the Lord-Lieutenancy. Treat-
ing this merely as an abstract proposition, it must be con-
fessed that, in the present relations of the two countries, it
is difficult to argue that a separate establishment, like that
of the Lord Lieutenant, is necessary for the conduct of af-
fairs in Ireland. It is difficult to maintain that the con-
tinuance of that office is essential to the prosperity of Ire-
land, or even to the good government of that country. At
the same time it must be confessed that many local advan-
tages result from having in Dublin an authority with
whom residents in Ireland can communicate personally, to
whom they can state face to face their wants or wishes,
and b v communication with whom a great number of hical
questions which it would be difficult and tedious to arrange
by correspondence may be settled without subjecting the
persons interested to the inconvenience of coming over
from Dublin to London. (Hear, hear.) The question is,
therefore, far from being so simple as the hon. and learned
gentleman seems to imagine, when he proposes by a single
vote of the House to cut short all the difficulties of the
case. It is needless, however, to say that, even if the Go-
vernment had determined upon any arrangement which
. they deemed satisfactory as a substitute for the existing
system, it would be utterly impossible to expect them tosub-
mit their plan to Parliament at this period of the session.
(A laugh.) lam sure upon reflection my hon. and learned
friend will feel that it would not be conducive to the inte-
rests of the public service that the house should, at this
moment, condemn by its vote an existing institution which
as has been well observed, has been maintained for a long
period, and should leave that institution under the censure
and condemnation of Parliament without any definite idea
being even suggested by the mover of the resolution as to the
system upon which the affairs of Ireland are to be in future
conducted. I shall therefore certainly vote for the previous
question, and I think those hon. gentlemen who agree with
the hon. and learned member for Sheffield, that in the ab-
stract the office of Lord Lieutenant may be dispensed with
as well as those who deem it is essential to maintain that
office, may with equal propriety vote for the motion of the
hon. member for Yarmouth (Mr. M'Cullagh), because there
cannot be a doubt that the resolution of the hon. and learned
member for Sheffield is one which, at the present moment,
it is inexpedient to affirm. The hon, and learned gentle-
man (Mr Roebuck) said that those who voted for the pre-
vious question would admit their acquiescence in the mo-
tion with regard to which the previous question is pro-
posed. I beg leave to differ from the hon. gentleman on
that point. Those who vote for the previous question de-
clare, in effect, their opinion that, for whatever reasons, it
is not expedient that the house should, at this moment,
come to a decision upon the resolution which has been sub-
mitted to it. Those, therefore, who vote for the previous
question give no opinion, and imply no opinion, upon the
subject on which the previous question is moved, but they
simply declare that the resolution is one which it is not
desirable that Parliament should assent to at the present
time. lam glad that my right hon. friend the late Secre-
tary for Ireland has done justice to Lord Carlisle, whose
conduct in the administration of his Government has, I
think, been most unfairly represented in the course of this
debate. lam convinced that no man who every filled the
office of Lord-Lieutenant entered upon it with a more sin-
cere desire than was entertained by Lord Carlisle to con-
duct the administration in the manner thtismost conducive
to the interests of Ireland and most congenial with the
feelings of Ireland. I venture to say there never was a
man who more completely carried his heart into the per-
formance of his duties than Lord Carlisle, and I think
every man acquainted with the present state of Ireland
will admit that his intentions have been fully appreciated
by the Ii ish people. Indeed, I believe I may say there
never was a Lord-Lieutenant who possessed more fully
than does Lord Carlisle the confidence and affection of the
people over whose affairs he presides. In the adminis-
tration of the patronage with which he is invested he has
been actuated by no motive whatever except the desire of
promoting the general interests of Ireland; and I think if
the prosperity, the tranquillity, and the good feeling of
the country can be assumed as good evidences of the me-
rits of the person by whom the government is conducted,
we have ample testimony that Lord Carlisle's administra-
tion has been most successful. It is unnecessary for me, from
the ground I have taken, to go into a detailed examina-
tion of the arguments which have been urged either in fa-
vour of or in opposition to the abolition of the office of
Lorl-Lieutenant. I have already stated that in the abstract
I think it would be difficult a priori to maintain that the
continuance of such an office is absolutely necessary. On
the other band, I think it is evident, from what has passel
in the course of this debate, that there would be great diffi-
culty in providing a satisfactory substitute for that office,
and I shall, therefore, vote for the previous question.
Mr. DISRAELI—I hope the house will allow one who
is neither an Irish member nor has been an Irish Secretary
to take some slight part in this debate—(hear)--and that
they will permit one English member, who holds no official

position, to offer a few remarks on the motion of the hon.
and learned member for Sheffield. This motion is unques-
tionably one of no ordinary character. It proposes to
' make a very great alteration in the administration of Ire-
land ; and I think we ought to-night to have placed before
us very distinctly and precisely the reasons why such an
alteration is, in the opinion of the hon. and learned mom-
' ber for Sheffield, and those who think with him, not only
expedient, but necessary and instant. (Hear.) Ido not
understand that any reasons of that kind have been placed
) before us. The charges against the office are of a very ge-
neral character ; nor are they such that even were they
I true would justify immediate and precipitate legislation.
i (Hear.) As far as I can collect from the course of this de-
• bate, the charges against the office of Lord Lieutenant may
I be ranged undr two heads. Under the first it may be said
• that the office is of a deceptive character. It has been
styled by an hon. member—not once, but twenty times—
in the course of his speech as a " sham"—the English of
' which word I doubt, and the Parliamentary use of which I
' have always deprecated. (Hear, and a laugh.) The reasons
• brought forward to show that it is a " sham" have not
brought any conviction to my mind. (Cheers,) It has also
been said in the debate that to a certain degree the office is
a ceremony and a pageant. Is the house prepared to abo-
lish it for that reason ? As far as I could listen to the ob-
jections of the hon. and learned gentleman, I must say that
• they are objections which would apply to almost every
high office in the state; and if it were not blasphemy-
- (laughter)—to use the expression of the hon. member for
Dungarvan (Hr. Maguire), I am not quite sure they
• would not apply to the monarchy itself. If you come to
analyse all the arrangements and all the forms which sur-
round the fulfilment of office, I am not quite certain that
the highest offices of this house might not be proved to
be what the hon. gentleman (Hr. Maguire)styles a "sham."
(Renewed laughter.) You might analyse the fulfilment
of public duties, and you might prove that a clerk—an
unknown clerk—in a Government office, might fulfil per-
haps, all those functions which attract so much public
attention, and excite so much the public confidence. You
might reduce government to much more simple and rude
forms than at present. But having done all this—having
destroyed all sentiment and all responsibility—some day
an awful crash will occur, and then you will discover that
all this time, while simplifying the forms of government,
you have been in effect destroying all the sources of autho-
rity—(hear)—and I might observe, in passing, that the
very speakers who tell us this office is a sham— that it is
a perfectly idle and inefficient form—tell us at the same
time that it meddles withjeverybody and everything—that
there is nobody whom it does not corrupt, and that it is
all potent at elections—yes, the power which is described
as absolutely inefficient. What I want to impress upon the
house is this, that we are called upon to make a very con-
. siderable change in the administration of Ireland, and that
we have had nu case placed before us. (Hear.) lam not-
prepared to say that the form of administration which
exists in Ireland is the one best adapted for the state of
affairs in that country ; or that it is the best calculated to
I deal with all the circumstances which it has to control and
content with. At the same time Ido not agree with the
' noble lord that it is an anomaly to have a different admi-
nistration for Ireland and England, because the circum-
stances of the two countries are the same ; for I do not
admit that the circumstances of the two countries are the
same. But passing from that view, I say it is absolutely
necessary to have a clear case before us ere we sanction a
change of this character. And therefore nothing but a
feeling of general discontent acting upon the Government,
or some similar influence, could justify the House of
Commons, particularly at this moment, in entering upon
the consideration of such a question. The hon. and
learned gentleman, however, evades that view of the
case. In 1850, we had the question fairly before us ; but
I would appeal to every .one who remembers those times
whether the substitute offered to us did not sink before
the repeated discussions in this house. There was no in-
disposition on the part of the house to sanction the prin-
ciple supported by the hon. and learned gentleman ; in-
deed, I believe, successive majorities sanctioned that prin-
ciple; but when we had to consider the substitute placed
before us by the Government, I would ask any one pre-
sent who was a member of the house at that time, whether
he will not bear witness to this, that night after night—
for our debates were very much prolonged—gave as the
inevitable result of discussion, that the substitute of the
Government was generally considered totally unsatisfactory
and inefficient. Well, sir, no one can say that there is any-
thing in the circumstances of Ireland that demands such a
discussion, or that necessitates this change at the present
moment. No one will deny that, probably, at no period
Ireland was in a more tranquil or in a more satisfactory
state. lam not anxious to prove now that it is owing to
the establishment of the Lord Lieutenancy that this tran-
quillity is attributable, but simply that it is coincident
with it. Well, what is the reason that we should come for-
ward now to effect so considerable; a change in the mode of
administering Ireland? Alld this brings me to another ob-
jection which is ureal against the office. It is said that
not only is the Lord Lieutenancy a sham, but that it is a
corruption. That
office. But
wEausttvih,heastecond had of accusation
we 'ough t
cor-
ruption? I do not think "
ment we ought to go ' ',mit in ou
hilt;,-roofis there of thish mo
or that
Lord Lieutene-- 't 7, discuss the character of the office of
union, b•-' '111'.., the ancient ry of Ireland,
ae4,
(6 that weat otuhgeh timet tto speak
e athe o
of
ntihoen e
hor a
character and
atnhiet
--eon of the office as we have known it within our own
1
times and experience. Now, take the last 20 years, during
which I have had experience of this house and of public
affairs, and I want to know what evidence have we before'
us that the exercise of authority on the part of the Lord
' Lieutenant was an -intriguing and corrupting exercise of