The Sun.
London, England, 1844-06-13 00:00:00

_________ that it proved that there was no necessity for the
_ . _
----sse—__.
driver „ , . _ pecuniary encouragement of the State. He was
The 0 ' • e, ~F (-• 'Ai 411.1' S. Jane 12 sorry to revert to the education question ; but
s oeseseert took the Chair at Four o'clock.
k vDISsENTERs' CIIAPELS Biel, ' the hon. and Learned Gentleman had adverted to the
,r• IVIAsN presented petitions , schools which had recently been erected, and he must
Lore c against this Bill. be permitted to say that the schools in the diocese
ate ~,, • MANNERS presented similar petitions of Armagh had been erected in opposition
Aulti..l
~leestershire.
ito the national system of education. His eyes
r ''-V,)-NS also presented similar petitions. had been opened to the real nature of the
fssanr tiergeant alUllt'llY presented petitions in
• or the lai Protestant Church Establishment by their hosti-
:l from ; imeriels. 1i ty to the nationals system of education.
aili°'cl INGISSTRIS presented petitions against the He had heard in his own parish sentiments expressed
f•
rom Staffordshire.
niral : SCIIOL EF IE 1, Dcpresented a petition from against that system, and he had heard sermons preached
trenehain • 0-►• the and knew a late instance in which a
against plan,
111. „ , aselinst toe aids Charter Bill. bishop, who was appointed by the Right Hon. Baronet,
wets "f
AY presented a petition from the in his first charge expressed himself as strongly
LJ‘2.7?
_:_t- Edinburgh, praying fora tax on m ichinery. opp ised to the national system of education. This
Leie_r€te e.. MANNERS presented petitions from
toeSr:. rseire, proved to him (Colonel Rawdon) that these ministers
in fermi'. of protection to agriculture. of the Church in Ireland were not the ministers of
fie ' IN GESTRE resented similar petitions peace. The time was now come when it was neces-
ns State de, p -
Sir J. 'r. se're• nary to ask whether the Government were in
bisse IV ALSII presented petitions against the i earnest in their support of the national system of
Airntsrs Chapels Bill. education in Ireland. He thought they were bound
from T. EGP,..I,TON presented similar petitions to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he was
Lord
Rol ton '
Lord 'As e ~.., acting fairly in not giving the whole weight of the
test th lirse,Y pr santed petitions from Belrast Government in support of a system fe• which the
kr. e Dissenteee' Chapels Bill. country was taxed. The Noble Lord, the Secretary
Initial eGOBSON postponed the Appeal in CH- for the Colonies, had originated the national system of
btrA '‘••ses Bill fur a fortnight. education in Ireland, and would that Noble, Lord now
14 lIED PARTS OF COUNTIES BILL. allow that system, for want of protection, to wither? The
e r. sees,
:self • "s -1: moved that the House should resolve Noble Lord, the Secretary for Ireland, had made use of
auntie!flte a Committee on the Detached Parts of
.
ess l•ss argument in his speech last night than he (Colonel
se?, ii A ,Bill. Rawdon) had ever heard in any speech before. His
tatmeit,TZEßY moved that the Bill should be speech was made up merely of quotations of eminent
After that six months. men. Those eminent men were distinguished for
Sell° '' a few words from Mr. SCOTT and Mr. M. being in advance of public opinion of their day, and he
Ilse e,,111 the amendment was withdrawn, and the Bill (Colonel Rawdon) believed that if those eminent
ordered to be sent to a Select Committee up stairs. men could come again amongst us, they would still
()e the ALIENS BILL. be in advance of the public opinion of the day.
read a motion of Mr. iiurr, the above Bill was He wished to address himself to the Right Hon.
the 26tshecond time, and ordered to be committed on Gentleman at the head of the Government; he wished
instant. to allude in most distinct terms to the declaration of the
On thS4OKE PROHIBITION BILL. Duke of Wellington, that the present Church of Ireland
'wets ~• e Motion of Mr. MACKINNON, the House was the foundation on which the union depended. For
NI err Committee on this Bill pro forma, when it his own part he could not see why the Act of Union
acted to be re-committed on the 26th inst. was to be thrust down the throats of the people of
The COUNTY COURTS BILL. Ireland. The great object of the Hon. Member for
by 44,,rePort on the County Courts Bill was brought Sheffield was to alter in some measute the laws re-
.. e ree •
Issic,,elved. lating to the temporalities of the Church. With such
Oath '-"XLIARY FIRES IN SUFFOLK. opinions how could he (Col. Rawdon) much longer
the ed. e 'notion for reading the order of the day for consent to be a party to that Act of Union, if he were
Irels l'urned debate on the Established Church of to be told that it rested on the Irish Church Este-
, ne ese
ate eiStrng nut, - blishment ? No reason whatever had been shown,
Lsesn -,,,`•I4NER GIBSON said he wished to put a that the Act of Union would not be firmer and
w Stat°- t 0 the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary stronger by placing the temporalities of the Church
kebieete for the Home Department in reference to a on a proper and equitable footing. The Right
estear"„Of considerable importance in that part of the Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government (Sir
14 Sias! ,``, 'ith which lie was cannected—the county R. Peel), on the recent discussion of the Dissenters'
keteia °l. He alluded to the alarming spread of in- Chapels Bill, had shown a wish to do what was
laseiv rY fires in Suffolk, Norfolk, and Essex. He had right. He (Colonel Rawdon) had recorded his vote
law ad Many communications on the subject, and if for the Government in support of that Bill, although
were 4. -
Ithieh , Lo attempt to enumerate the different fires he believed his constituents (Id not participate
Olselinnad taken place in those counties since Mi- in his approval of it. This would show
sf shatas, the sum total would astonish the Members the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) that if he
Italie, Hoes-.
se The subject was creating great were disposed and determined to do justice he had
eouilt',Y, and he might almost say dismay in those but to throw himself on that side of the House, and
he hmles. lie was himself a magistrate of Suffolk, then all measures brought forward by him and
''f tile- !nailer opportunities of forming some estimate founded on those principles would be carried
teunt
weer and
of the labouring classes in that triumphantly. Though he (Colonel Rawdon) had
I_,klessi?' and it was his firm belief, that generally the his predilections, he was an independent mem-
sostrters of that county were a well disposed and in- ber, and if the Right Honourable Baronet
*ithias clan, and he believed they would shrink showed the disposition to do justice he should be very
km horror from such a crime as that of incendiarism: willing to come forward and give him his
Ilkley: believed that the occupying tenants and the support. He, the Right Honourable Gentleman,
c't lea-an generally were actuated by feelings had hut to be just—to fear not. In speak-
esktileness towards the labouring classes, and he ii,g the other evening on the Bill he had
god tair"nrnerate many cases in which individuals referred to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir Robert
tkilr -en steps to ameliorate their condition by Peel) had finished a beautiful eulogium on the
they
ti them allotments. Notwithstanding this, Established Church, by expressing his hope and
Niahad the alarming fact before them that in- opinion that she would never allow her doctrines to
:tatsejifi'sns to a large extent existed. Having be thrown against the eternal principles of justice.
le,''' grounds of the question, what he wanted This had been put forward to the people in Parlia-
was -„,°,w from the Right Honourable Gentleman went, but it had been put forward in a more emphatic
eses'a"nelher the subject of ineendiarism in those shape, in an address to public opinion out of doors,
ss eC had occupied the full and serious attention of which was signed by many Irish representatives,
Sir ilestv's Government. to which he was sorry that circumstances did
s'teteta ' GRAHAM said, that with regard to the not permit him to attach his na-ne. It was !vi-
-44(14:"! saith which the Hon. Gentleman prefaced dent that many of the Liberal representatives
ae rilaisti.on, he was happy to say from the inquiries from Ireland had lost all confidence in that House,.
risPraise e Into the subject, that he concurred in the from which they appealed to a sense of justice outside
e the Honourable Gentleman had bestowed on the walls of Parliament. In that address, to which
lortrY, tenants, and labourers of the county he begged to call the attention of the Right Hon.
..se wieh the Hon. Gentleman was a magistrate. Baronet at the head of the Government, was
N4B, also prepared to admit that incendiarism pre- demanded the recognition of perfect equality in
'tele .° a deplorable extent throughout a portion regard to ecclesiastical and educational ar9trigemer?ts
:_seaa county of Suffolk and the adjacent parts of between the several religious communities.. into which
afrand throughout the county of Norfolk. He the population of the country was divided. `What
bon.eadY answered the que-tion put to him by the
Gerry could be more moderate than that demand? It
Antleman, by stating that this painful subject was what had been carried on in practice in
ssty.:--'e,C„uPied the serious attention of her Ma- England and Scotland. They neglected to
*it l -„seovernment. It had been his duty to confer carry out that principle with regard to
!stietrie lord lieutenants and magistrates of those Ireland. It was matter of history that both Houses
at.,y,:es and every effiert had been made by her Ma- of Parliament stood pledged to redress the grievances
kaehs ssovernment, as he had stated on a former oc- of It eland, and could any man say that the
rime' to detect the perpetrators of this dreadful state of the Established Church of Ireland was
Si. Many fires might easily be the work of one not a grievance to the Catholic population of
;_4llearY.---(Hear, hear.) The character which that country? He denied that the Act of Union
'N. el n. Gentleman had so justly given of the labour- tied up their hands with regard to this subject; but,
east any
of that district, precluded the supposition at all events, it should be recollected that the Parlia-
-444 snar considerable portion of the peasantry had merit of that day was very differently constituted to
'Pere concerned in these fires. He thought they what it would be now. If they wished to avoid a
I'lio the work of very few individuals, revolution they ought to adopt a principle of common
"stise were probably actuated by personal sense.—(Cries of "Hear, hear.") He was sorry to
tliiites• He assured the Hon. Gentleman that if the say that, in the present state of Ireland, foreign
late •.' Parties were detected, the law should be put Powers had too much to offer to her. It was not safe
kterleeution with the least possible delay. to leave things in their present state —(Hear,.) He
4e. eti' IL GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. knew it might he said that this was not patriotic, and
'se sZan whether, in the course of his inquiries on he knew how easily it was to get up a cheer in
.that
lett, klssJent, he had been led to the conclusion that the House by a contrary sentiment, but he maintained
'lst i's spirit which had induced men to set
'lire ° Premises might be induced by a pees- that their business was to tell the truth—(Hear)
eeetror distress over which individuals had no and he would again repeat that foreign powers had
too much to offer. He • had lately conversed with
' l'teelate ls, and whether the Government were many foreigners, particularly with Protestant Ger-
`ae e`t to take into their consideration mans, who had themselves broached the subject to him.
nth ondition, generally, of the agricultural poor,
lie had talked much with Protestant Germans and
asa View of ascertaining whether there might not others, but in the whole course of his experience, on
tset, e'inething at the root of society, an under cur- the Continent, he had never found a man who could
kiss an it were, which was producing this reckless- understand the state of their relations. He thought
~11,11_,`1 insensibility to the consequences of crime. they ought to take warning from what philosophical
peers 're GRAHAM said his inquiries had led him writers like Kohl said upon this subject. He declared
thm`nriclusion that the causes were in no degree with all sincerity his belief that sooner or later the
'''e,itti,„4,4ture —(Hear, hear.) He believed that the continuance of this state of things would lead to
L 1,1)117 of the peasantry were not implicated. a revolution in Ireland. He would not tres-
'`q le, u• RUSSELL inquired whether any persons pass any longer on the attention of the House.
Sir e..,,n tried for the offence ? He had given utterance to his sincere beliet,
Nal .• G-RA HAM said there had been four or five
e.i,_ , that the Church temporalities were the cause of much
. ~ Wityns at the last Spring Assizes. irritation, and that the union itself was weakened by
'Air „IT OF EKROR.—MR. O'CONNELL. the present state of things. He would only, in con-
:ailed s'• RULLER said considerable anxiety pre- elusion, appeal shortly to what he hoped still existed
Pros i',','' .0 the effect which the trial of the writ of in that House, namely, an independent party. There
:tits ",t,be House of Lords would have on the cir- was such a party in that House in former days, and
Ifhe c° 'le wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman from the opinions expressed by many Hon. Gentlemen
N'in 111(1 say when the appeal would come on for
k• opposite he hoped that such a party still existed.
i. ir a- He hoped that party would show a disposition to act
'eve se' GRAHAM said he had every reason to be- fairly towards Ireland, and that they would act in
'it sseelat the writ of error had arrived in London, accordance with the dictates of justice and of comtnon
‘est,,''''. arrive in the course of the next four-and- sense.
er'ileci flours. So far as the Government was con- Sir J. WALSH said that, notwithstanding the
t'itnee`.erY effort would be made to expedite the general absence of an offensive tone in the speech of
tlillat it' of the writ of error ; and he was persuaded the Hon. Member for Sheffield, there were some
kr attennld be heard in time to enable the judges parts of that speech open to objection. He said, for
leterth'''s their respective circuits within ten days instance, that from the earliest period, the govern-
sq. e usual • A
Su. r, peruke meat of Ireland by Ole' country had been a uniform
Pegslea", HU RCH.—(ADJOURNED DEBATE.)
s course of oppression. That was a statement that he
earsinet RASSVDON, on the order of the day for could hardly have expected to hear from an Hon.
t°,aee,R the ad'ourned debate being read, rose. He Member who was a friend to British connection.
.sse i,:eed by tendering his thanks to the Hon.
lei ' r f .7, They might regret the severity of the penal laws, but
th 144 or Sheffield (Mr. NI aril) for the zeal, the thewere not made to bolster up the Irish Church.
13 8,,3br: and the talent with which he had brought They were enacted to secure the Protestant succes-
se - Jectof the H
hele efe„ under the consideration ouse. sion. There was another thing which he much re-
ts'isvea '''a of that Hon. Gentleman were, he firmly gretted, and that was the introduction of personal topics
ee e, - •
e si.n mainly conservative. He maintained that into the Hon. Member's speech. He thoughtthe sanctity
-tlinitee way of preserving the union between the of private life ought not to be lightly invaded, as the
I'l% calls s was to show a disposition to approach what Members of this House possessed the privilege of
Ole AScl a grivance with a desire to remedy it. The saying what they chose, and giving great publicity to
i'ls sab'.erriber for Sheffield had long laboured on what they said—they ought to use those privileges
'est sleet. Year after year he had brought the
tale 'cri with great discretion. He knew nothing of Arch-
le,' it f°r'ivard • it hadgradually gained ground,
„ ,
he-mt pi.' "s high time that it should now produce up to a sort of reprehension in that House, as having
otrei,reaetical result. The city of Armagh which been a luxurious and pampered ecclesiastic, when the
ki.the eated was the residence of two primates, one House knew nothing of the circumstances, except
kh b nglish Church, and the other of what he
abaft e that he appeared to have spent a large private
s. Permitted to call the Irish Church. Infortune in acts of charity.— (Hear, hear.)
les . item. did , One
415 b 'on they find these two:primates.
it , ', c,lf ever national faith ought to be preserved, itshould
4 Pal - enjoymentofsplendid revenue inhabiting
a
14 til4" snr be preserved on
A_ e 1 . rounded by a park, and 'having a seat d been to the
been more solemnly pledged than it had _
_ 'thßili sa 4-4„f'gislature among the Peers:of the realm. maintenance of the Protestant Church of Ireland.
e Gov‘e"; absence of the Viceroy he sbecame one of It was of quite as much importance to preserve the
,loaattentilment of Ireland. Now he wished to call national faith in our domestic as in our foreign rela-
Isselle state of the people of England and the House tions. If the whole of the Irish Protestants agreed to
ten mate of in which he found his neighbour, the this proposition that might indeed cancel the engage-
asi-eerneet, for
Irish Church. He lived in a humble meat, but as it was at present the national faith was
henotieed 'or which he paid rent. He was pledged to the maintenance of the Protestant Church
es.rl hate and unrecognised by the Government. in Ir&and. The Hon. Member had repeated what
dray, hono part in the making of any laws had often been quoted in that House, the declaration
Th a
ey l Penat statute, was not even permitted by un-
of the Right Hon. Baronet atthe
n. head of her Ma-
,,.,„, were ,_,,y, to call himself what he was. 'lre-.
Government some years ago, that .
a' Ite "d forsooth that this was not galling. land was his principal difficulty in conducting
ally e
Pr lon of Roman Catholics look upon the relative the government of this country. Ireland
tli cation
__ the Roman Catholic and the Protestant did constitute a great difficulty, and he
of°tioe ortlitils indifference ? They were told that this (Sir J. Walsh) was quite sure that there was no
amlrritasioee lion. Member for Sheffield was a source Government that could be formed—no possible, no
sOetien
°f big
, He should consider that the annual able, no imaginary Government—that would not
zi,tatinn.sa
,his motion was a much greater source of find the question of the government of Ireland an
17a(1131,! of Triti was trifling with the feelings of the extremely difficult and complicated one. But he did
li ealiXerl lie antd..—(Hear.) The fact was that they not think that the difficulties of governing Ireland had
q 4 'loped no this question too much with Mammon. been fully stated by the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
Esir,,4t he w...' Boman Catholic would take offence at The problem a statesman had to solve was, how to
5,,,,.P1ien.,
_.`B about to say, but he believed that the govern a country, which was most unhappily divided
r,:tit ed;s,nuilathe Protestant form of worship gave it and disturbed by religious differences—differences
st,,,,ler ef Dublin
over the Roman Catholic. The Re- existing between two parties of almost
frou.elea l'
not
had admitted that the Protestant equal force and importance in the country.
etch :head °t been advanced by its wealth derived Ireland was unhappily divided by religious differ-
eoets.Vstern, State, Why, then, did they not change ences, and the Protestant party in Ireland constituted
'systiries, Se., andl relyin-
g- upon the simplicity of their the mind, and intelligence, and wealth of the country. It
Lear the People' ll that would not have more weight was a mistake to suppose that there were few Protestants
ha A fled Ge., cf Ireland ? The Honourable and in Ireland, besides those who held large landed
Is,' been Gentleman had told them that 95,0001. estates. They, in fact, were as numerous in the large
in'_ the ,:.'(s:e rihed within the last few years towns as the Catholics. The striking of the
Iv 4 :,f
ciLl-tir, :tants of Ireland for the build- late special jury list in Dublin, proved that the
ireoet that se° ,s. He rejoiced to hear it ; but flower of the middle class in Ireland in the large
rcie,,,_ iteh evidence of the zeal and prosperity towns were Protestants. He trusted that the ma-
s'a're e
0. the rote taut
5 Church iu Ink", 1 jority oia tlie - pees motion would be 00 large,

AL ?A Jii,IAM k;