The Sun.
London, England, 1844-08-06 00:00:00

---.........m.....,....-.......1.11..........
at Portsmouth anal Plymouth. He thought he had said i ported the child it was all right, but they had no
enough to prove that they were not careless of the safety power of compelling him to do so as the law now stood.
of
othe country. The Noble Lord had thought proper to , One of the great objects of the Bill was' to give to a
rntnent on the de:icate subject of the recent events at ' woman a summary means of obtaining redress from the
Otaheite. lie had stated that the French established a 1 father of her child. Another part of the Bill related to
protectorate there in 1842, and lie blamed the Govern- 1 apprentices, and provisions in that respect had been in-
tent for not having had a sufficient force there to prevent , troduced for the purpose of placing the system upon a
‘ But nothing- had occurred there previously to call I better foundation. Then, with respect to the giving re-
the. attention of the Government to that is!and, and i lief under the Bill, he thought it was a great mistake to
when it was directed to it, it must be remembered that • say that no able-bodied person should receive relief out
...euzeearidyistance to that part of the world was enormous, of the workhouse. There was another clause in the Bill
half the globe. There was not a force there at by which the widow of a pauper could receive relief
1.11_4,e, but the Talbot arrived there shortly afterwards, from a parish in which she was residing without going
and remained till February, 1843. The Vindictive back to the parish in which she had hitherto resided.
arrived when the Talbot left, and remained there till The next point was the appointment of district auditors,
and
August •
; when she left, on the 6th of August, the in which respect the Bill was a great improvement on
Dublin took her place, and remained till January, 1844. the old law. Under the old system, by the defalcation
111 fact, Otaheite had never been without a British pen- of overseers, both the parishes and the poor were often
Litua to look after British interests. The Noble Lord robbed. The auditing of the accounts by one person,
,4164,,_ said, if the Vindictive had been there, the occur• with regularity and certainty, would be the saving of a
there when
would not have happened. But the Dublin was considerable sum of money. Formerly, there was an
his sovereign
when Admiral Dupetit Thouars did that act which auditor to every union ; but the present Bill provided
neceovereign had since disavowed; and when the acts of that one auditor might superintend the accounts of a
unt rs were such as to be disavowed by their district consisting of several unions. The next object
sovereign, lie thought it was with these last that this was the establishment of district schools, on the same
i„cni°trY ought to treat, rather than risk a collision plan as that at Norwood, the effects of which had been
,:_tne individual cases which would involve the whole highly beneficial, and district asylums provided for
ag,traiilnissctdanwyorld in war. Captain Tuekett protested furnishing a refuge to those who were found totally
tsit discsrteetpionth,at was taken, but he acted with the destitute. Then came clauses stating the duties
eeartei and didnoth'ing that would involve of existing boards, and. the powers give_ n to them.
'eri .sg of hostilities ; and he did not believe that if the The last provision to which lee had to call their Eaten-
_ I.ldictive had been there the outrage on Mr. Pritchard Lion was that which gave the power of separating
nald have been prevented. Their''foree was *stationed parishes from unions. When the poor-law was first
theree to watch over British interests, but not to interfere paised, lie thought there was a mistake made in forming
"loth foreign Powers. He maintained that they had them to large.—(Hear, hear.) But by this provision
performed that duty, and .that those interests had not this defect could be remedied, and without the consent of
suffered except in the case of that violent outrage, of the guardians. These were the principal objects of the
Which,
eh, considering all the circumstances, he would not present Bill. He knew that the poor-law was a great
a. l
y a word. He concluded by resisting the motion of object of vituperation with many persons in the country.
'sue Noble Earl. But lie could not help thinking that those who so treated
The Duke of WELLINGTON—The Noble Earl op- it, must forget the evils of the old law. He could not
Pate has alluded to some observations madeeby ine two help thinking, too, that they estimated too lightly the
/earsago respecting the state of the navy, and lam now difficulties of dealing with the subject altogether. The
'educedl to trouble you with a few remarks just to show supporters of the poor-law were accused of great inhu.
e difference between the state of things at the present manity. Now he had had some experience of the working
thee and at the period at which I made those obser- of the two systems, and he had no hesitation in saying, that
Yeti
e— ns• At that time this country was engaged under the present system the poor were infinitely better
In
Chia state of warfare in North America, in off. than before.—(llear, hear.) It had been stated, that
,ena. in the Persian Gulf, and in India. Al- in consequence of the medical attendants being under
"'°ugh not then in the active service of the Govern- paid, they neglected the poor ; there might be cases of
alind eil t I was frequently in communication with Lord Hill, this neglect, but generally the poor were better attended
e
never failed whenever he asked my opinion to freely to than before. Under the old system, they scarcely
advise with him concerning the state of our fleets and had any medical attendance at all. They would also
armies in
all parts of the world. The Noble Lord had remember, that when a poor man applied for relief,
111t11er misquoted what I said on a former occasion. there was a kind of dispute or controversy between him
:hat I complained of was, that being engaged in exten- and the overseer, whether he should be relieved or not.
:
'Lye wars in three parts of the globe, those wars were But now, every one who was entitled to relief received
Fried
a on with a peace establishment, and the conse- it with the greatest regularity ; nor was there any
quinceki Was that the whole peace service was starved. I indisposition to deny relief to the aged. There was
.....innot go into details of the number of men and ships no disposition to drive the poor into the workhouse.
ee„
rnaval details lam not competent to enter; bat, A great deal had been said about the separation of man
yea ds, we know very well the amount of estimates and wife, but this existed in all well-regulated work-
a_araZit,he number of men, and the whole naval strength houses under the old poor-law. Generally speaking, as
have he the number of men for whom naval supplies far as respects the old and married, the former were
think bite
vo:ed in this Parliament be considered, I better off, the latter as well off, as before. A great deal
in • zt will be found equal to what it was had been urged against the Commissioners of the Poor-
whsea %t much more warlike period—equal to law, but he felt convinced that that board was the
*aid le was in the years 1837, 1838, 1839, greatest security the poor could have, that they would
opeeat:°4°, during which time we carried on great be treated in a proper manner. When it was attempted
P ers. ions je
Gulf.
America, in China, in India, and in the to cry down a particular law, and when that law did
forealiall `llllf. Ample eans everywhere exist for per- not deserve these taunts, it was the duty of any honest
ter ~ 12 g. those services which ought to be performed by man to state his convictions. regarding it, and
Ida;;-!N”ty's navy, and for affording protection to her support it if he believed it to be - just.—
teen'entY s subjects wherever commerce, or their other (Hear,. hear.) . Although there were cases of
reeeTs, may carry them. I will not allude to the hardship occurring from time to time, he would like to
(Lau L eccentricities in a distant part of the world— know what other law could be devised which would an-
ageieter)—carried on under circumstances protested sorer the same purpose. He hoped their Lordships would
taw tby this country, and disavowed by the Govern- excuse him for going into the subject at such length,
eee_' of Prance. Those who have been engaged in these but, from the frequent attempts which had been made to
re, entricities will be responsible for them to their Sove- cry down the law he thought it right thus far to intrude
re --they willebe held answerable to the extent of their on their Lordships.
risibility, and which will be carried into execution, The Duke of RICHMOND said there was not a word
Qthese they will be required to answer for their conduct in of truth in any of the statements which had been made
/4Pec:"entricities. Your Lordships surely would not in the newspapers regarding the union of which he was
eo,_ to see a fleet maintained in the Pacific, nor would chairman. With respect to the law of bastardy he
me Lordships, lam sure, consider it prudent to eom- would not vote against the amendment introduced in the
hear) /
ce a contest under such circumstances.—(Hear, Government Bill, as bastardy was so much on the in-
..
sleet , t is impossible for me to say that the crease in the manufacturing districts. With respect to
these In the Pacific was sufficient, at the time the relief of widows that was a very delicate subject to
, events occurred, to enter into hostilities ; legislate upon ; they should be careful not to give out-
er will venture to say it was sufficient door relief to widows who were earning much money, or
wenetip purposes of service. Ido not pretend to say were leading an immoral life. He thought it was right
ie er Mr. Pritchard was or was not Consul at the that the unions should be diminished in extent, as they
5,2 %nor whether he merited or did not merit what hap- were at present productive of great inconvenience.
rti
tei.a. to him—these are questions I will not enter into There was a feeling in the country that when the As-
greeTs occasion. My Noble Friend has stated that a sistant Poor-law Commissioners came to the boards of
eig.,,l; outrage has been committed. I have no doubt but guardians for the purpose "of screwing the law a little
better will be given for that outrage, and it is tighter," officers should be appointed by the Secretary of
my'
artthere had been no naval contest there, than that State, not only to attend the boards, but to visit the
BPot to enter
had been made by the naval officers on the workhouses at times when they were not expected.
Lord enter into a conflict.—(Hear, hear.) When a boy ran away from the workhouse with the
env i CLANRICARDE said he would not enter into workhouse dress on, he was charged with felony for
th.4;„'ttails, but surely, however weak our fleet was in stealing the clothes. This was a great injustice, and the
I,irs; a I,`.c, it was not so weak as the arguments of the law with respect to it ought to be altered. Another
clear there
cleat Lord of the Admiralty.—(A laugh.) It was quite imperfection in the law was that with respect to the
was not at present a sufficient force in the removal of a pauper for receiving parish medical relief.
sem ,r-1--there was aot a fleet there as there had been, A woodcutter might obtain enough money for his family
?lent to ensure respect and proper treatment for a to live upon, but if a portion of that family became ill,
reßritish
ae,officer. The Noble Lord said ships were in it would be impossible for them to pay for medical aid,
---'ness andcould &ea dispatched in a mo- and if theyapplied to theparish for it they would beliable
dent, but ...-
been ready when to be removed to their own parish, perhaps miles distant.
thee, they had not
()fe were wanted, and an outrage on a British The board of guardians of which he Was chairman never
efecir had been perpetrated. He had heard that the refused medical aid when applied for. Another point
Zoe "ie. was sent from Portsmouth the other day with of objection to the present law was that with respect to
was Ten on board, 150 of whom were marines; and this operations to be performed by medical men in
o_4'S instanced as a proof of dispatch. An agent of our workhouses. He thought that no operation ought
ryTfohre
liPerriemigne
Sovereign hail been insulted—there was no delicacy to be performed in a workhouse without a
about
the Setchreatta. Minister, and the Noble Lord second medical man being consulted.—(Hear, hear.)
*manly tone, and. Affairs, had taken a proper and He had, however, great objections to operations being
than that , one much more befitting the occasion performed at all in a workhouse where there was a
A _
i1'..,3 hes.
eunderstood, the Dublin left Otaheite in January ; gaining a settlement by apprenticeship. He thought,
~,,4".,_,11_ been there, no such outrage, he firmly believed, too, that overseers ought to be empowered to remove
oiOceirirsh.ave occurred. The tone assumed by the French paupers to other places besides their native parishes. He
C't the in Otaheite should have warned the Admiralty knew himself a case of a poor girl, aged 17, living in the
elk necessity of having the British Power respect- town of Brighton as a domestic servant. She caught
lerVresented at Otaheite. He thought the Noble the typhus fever, and was removed to her parish for
tione had Very much exaggerated the state of our rela- medical relief. When she recovered, the overseer said
entl',vlth foreign countriei during the years 1837, 1838, that he had no doubt from her good character that he
t
tha1,239. He cordially joined in the Noble Lord's hopes could get her a situation, but she replied that she did
eatia'"sere was no danger or necessity for warlike prepa- not want one, as her mistress in Brighton had kept her
%best' ; but the Government should not be blind to situation open for her. Now such was the law that the
tyZalv_as going on on the coast of Morocco; and it was overseers had not the power of sending this poor girl to
War wring a respectable force there that the chance of Brighton, and the only way she got there was by a sub-
e„ mild be best avoided. scription being raised to defray her expenses there.
4101 a The Earl of HADDINGTON explained. —(Hear, hear.) Now he thought this was a state of the
end Earl of lIARDWICKE considered the answer law which required alteration.—(Hear.) Upon the whole,
IladdiXnPlanation given by his Noble Friend (Lord he thought the present Bill was a great amendment of
the di gt°n) perfectly satisfactor. In consequence of the law as it now stood, but he thought it might be
Parhassatisfaction evinced by they public at large, and by made susceptible of still further improvement.
the isTZnt, at the condition of the navy during the time The Earl of FORTESCUE considered that the law
head or T Lord opposite (the Earl of Minto) was at the as it stood, was a great improvement on the old law, and
nepportille Admiralty, that Noble Lord seized every he looked on the present measure as an amendment of
gardwiditY of applying the to quoque. He (the Earl of the existing law. He thought that the appointment of
leadto__ ae) did not think that debetes of this kind would district auditors and the establishment of district houses
to the rgood result. He had always felt that, in addition for the reception of the houseless poor, would prove
Was lsPosable force which was stationed abroad, it highly beneficial. He could not sit down without ex-
dispel necessary, at all times to have in this country a pressing his opinion that the Poor-law Commissioners
th sa,de . . .
e Gov_ force of ships, that, on any emergency arising, were deserving of the gratitude of the poor and the con-
%hips t "ran:lent might be enabled to send out additional fidence of the country.—(Hear.)
ientlfidf.„° any foaeign station and he felt perfect The Earl of HARDWICKE said that, notwithstatul-
atta —`ee, hat ' ,•h h 1 tf' •
, the xi., a at no period wit in t e as ex years, mg the efforts made by a certain portion of the press,
Peetprofession been more effective, either with there was a eneral feeling amongst the poorer classes of
5t,,4, 01 the home-
-.eons yards or those ships on foreign 1 culturald' •that this law worked for their
t ie agristricts,
The advantage. If they looked to the contrast between the
thit e Earl is
0. MINT 1. d. He eulogised th
tacte ando rep le . . e condition of the people under the old law and under the
there ey,„ gallantry of Sir C. Napier, and said that present law, they would find that the existing law was a
confide '''' no man in whom Iwould much benefit. said this •
he so
led nee with place I' d
to this _ respect to naval matters. He .a been Why, under this law, or under any other, a system of
Napierlt when
o.pinion by the gallant conduct of Sir C. grinding might exist, but it sOas not to be attributed to
r nee, il,en in command of the fleet in the Mediter-which
the law. In the union in he resided, when a per-
eer,e , when he (the Earl of Minto) had the honoue of ht for admission into theworkhouse,l was
son song he
Into asP"ding with him. The Noble Earlthen entered
asked if he could not get employment, and if he said not,
the 1 - eenanarisoof
en ast war, n the complements of the ships in they gave him a paper which he was to get filled up.
i the m_ ~, and those which were at present stationed No doubt he might come back and say he could not get
,ntord
,e,.niterranean. There were five 74-gun vessels snore than so much wages, but he would then be ad-
T' each
811 intent's action, with a complement of 575 men mitted, and if the poor labourers adopted this system,
At ;t . Trafo P,, ; in Lord Duncan 's action there were 554. and entered the workhouse for some months, they would
foto two tr there were sixteen seventy-fours, divided compel the farmers to give them higher wages, for they
hf(- each s}:.sses, but the average number was 598 men would not pay the high rates, and the condition of the
t4tbe line IP. Sir Robert Stopford had seventeen ships labourers would be better than ever it was before. He
an to each, iii. which there were 775 marines, which gave would not at that late period enter more at large upon
43.1,rere,es°11). Those, together with the crews, gave this subject. He concurred generally in the Bill, which
torte '4ia ail' of 607 men for each ship. He had heard it had been introduced by the Government, and particularly
. other
eerior a place that the present armament was of in the bastardy clauses, except that portion of the fifth
Of the shotlseription. That might be true with regard clause, which allowed a sum of money to the mother of
ships
~,,elicut it was not so with regard to the weight an illegitimate child. He thought that was a
wail's were ,h the vessels carried. The compl.ements of clause of very doubtful tendency.—(Hear, hear.)
pet..,: and always less in time of peace than in time of He thought it would be much better to make the money
In f!ter, ne .;`e._ had the authority of Admirals Martin, payable to the parish, and that it should support the
eeetclitee af,"o titopford, for saying that a full complement mother. He thought also that the people ought not to
seeeed Lerlrilleee Was an impediment.
oftenWe lie sue- be taxed for district schools at the will of the Corn-
ere;:_a eendi,lle Grey he found the state e navy.in missioners. This taxing power he thought very oh-
thi'ed esti,"_°l that he was obliged to ask for an in- jectionable ;it was an entirely new principle—a power
vven% requi—si4:_e for men and stores, and almost every. that ought not to be given to the Commissioners. He
eeedit.not ee,`,e for a ship.—(Cheers.) He hoped he should not move any amendment, but he wished the Bill
Th_lon. "in see the navy of the country in such a had been a little longer before the House.—(Hear, hear,
" The Earl ef. , from the Bishop of Exeter.) He wished they could have
toNtnotien UADDINGTON explained. submitted it to a Select Committee, in which it might
o latoN was then negatived without a division. have been carefully digested.
tee rel ekeet,l4A-W- COURTS (IRELAND) BILL. Lord LYTTELTON also regretted that more time
lirnin —t-üBELI
kn. aril g the ad. , moved the order of the day for could not be given for considering the measure. He,
`, Chief endthee, Journed debate on this Bill, and moved however, should not offer any opposition to it.
~, Eara,n,
,that the words " Chief Justice," or The bishop of EXETER moved that the House do
Le'ee„"eePuk' b
~e substituted for the Lord Lieutenant. adjourn.
Kith- Lord ot RICHMOND hoped the Noble and The Earl of STRADBROKE had great objections to
in 01 °light the would not persevere in his amendment. the bastardy clause. But when the Peor-law Bill
the .ea bards a, liatronage would be much better placed had passed a great stimulus had been given to employ-
rt.l
she
l. the Lord Lieutenant than in the hands of ment, and the condition of the poor on the whole had
a E i
age she are of Vbric,., been better since that period. Regarding the separation
hwell ulild not be inII.I4ONV did not see why this atron- of man and wife, he thought a better provision could not
ell
as of tl
bettor le En l' h • be made than under the present system.
of the Crownpoor-
late in one country it would be also
law, but he protested altogether against tho bastardy
the i country. He would be 'anxious to ass' --
'lll aw in both imi
clauses in the proposed amendments. Every part of the
.indo LORD countries.
R,,s w CHANCELLOR said he knew . present measure worked well except the bastardy clauses.
The `tar
anxious for this the Irish
The great mischief was, firstly, that of the women
we esarquis f .
,re anxine 0 NORMANBY said that if the judges swearing to fathers; and
secondly, the number of corn-
-Laird La es to receive this patron he i that i metals to jail for non-payment of the allowance con-
we, e Letutenant, as far as _ age, mew the 1
tracted for. He would say non-content to any bastardy
better"lL3us to he was concerned himself
to get rid of it. He thought it clause introduced by the Government.
eeuntr assimilate the law or IrelandtO' would be
The Marquis of NORMANBY cordially participated
itheY the law in this
in the sentiment, and expressed his concurrence in the
44110 like of RIC HMO
Zia •rt rneas ND said he was prepared to opinion of many of his Noble Friends, that a Bill of this.
Ilish jdo. ure taking away the patronage from the magnitude should not be introduced at so late a period
, and
his -\-T• "
1,,,f,ip.:..and vesting it in the Crown. of the session.
t'soble le •"SCUE concurred in the view taken by The Bishop of EXETER veldt' persist in his motion.
passed.
'lendes.
The Earl of WHARNCLIFFE flan no wish to hurry
pa.ued. amendment was then agreed to, and the Bill i the House, at the same time ho thought they should
now proceed with its discussion.
Lord CAMPBELL thought the Bill might have been
introduced into their Lordships' House at brat.
----rs were then ordered to withdraw, but 11P
Strat,_ '
division took place. ' —esectee pro brine, and
The Bill then went through Cola.. -- 4.0.
was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow (tee,
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the
Scotch Salmon Fisheries Bill passed through Committee.
Several other Bills on the paper were forwarded a
stage, and the House ad• •
tilr Half-past Three
o'clock t
adjourned at Quarter-past One,
to morrow (this day)

I._ POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL,
LothWHARNCLIFFE said that in moving that
ouse should resolve itself itself into a Committee
rcie poorlaw, he felt it necessary to detain their
ships for a short time. Their Lordships must be
4.ware that one of the most difficult subjects connected
witt., it the present poor-law, was the law relating to bas-
oftard„ ~
J• Isy the law, as it stood at present, the overseer
the parigh could take the mother of a bastard before a
Justice of the peace, who had the power of mak-
Lng as order for support, and if the father Imp-