The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-06 00:00:00

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tleman. On one subject, however, he differed from him.
He disagreed from that part of the Right Honourable
Gentleman's speech, in which he stated that he consi-
dered it might be advisable for the Government and the
Right Honourable Gentleman to enter into some sort of
Compact with the existing railway companies, to pre-
vent the construction of competing lines of railway.—
(Hear.) He thought that in some cases competing lines
of railway might be necessary, in order to secure to the
public the benefits of competition.—(Cheers.) At
all events, they could do no harm. They
would secure the public against the monopoly
of carriage possessed by some of the railway companies.
For instance, the Great Western and Southampton were,
to a certain extent, competing lines, and the consequence
had been a reduction in the prices of carriage. He had
recently, at one of the stations on the Southampton line,
seen parcels directed to Bath. He had inquired, and
had been informed, that they were competing with the
Great Western line, and that when they had
a branch to Salisbury, there would exist a still greater
degree of competition, which would undoubtedly
benefit the public.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had stated too positively that no advantage
could be derived from competing lines.—(Cheers.) He
was sure the public would feel much obliged to the
Right Ron. Gentleman for having directed his attention
to the high rate of fares charged for third-class pas-
sengers.--(Cheers.) Any one who had travelled on
the Continent could not but be struck with the beneficial
'effects produced by low third-class fares. There
labourers went to their work of a morning
railway, while here the exorbitant fares
demanded for third-class passengers pressed
.most heavily upon the humbler classes.—(Loud
sheers.) The country generally was indebted to the
Right Hon. Gentleman for the attention he had paid to
the subject of railways.—(Cheers.)
Mr. GI ADSTONE was anxious that the attention of
the Committee should be directed in the first instance to
those railway companies which were about to apply
to that House for additional powers. He hoped that he
should shortly be enabled, with the consent of all the
misting railwar companies, to submit the general sub-
3cet of railway legislation to the Committee, and nothing
could be easier than to enlarge the powers from time to
time by instructions.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. ROEBUCK was glad that the subject had been
4brought under the consideration of the House. He
thought they ought to have no half-and-half measures
relation to this subject. A great revolution had
'been made in our several relations by the introduction
'of .the railway system. Parliament had in fact created
ertain monopolies, and he asked the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to go into the whole subject and not con-
tent himself with legislating in those cases merely
rlb which railway companies might apply for
'resit. powers. A monopoly had been created by the
extraordinary advances we had made in physical science,
which could not have been dreamt of twenty years ago.
Re wanted the Right Hon. Gentleman to deal with rail-
ways which had obtained powers from that House just
in the same way as he would deal with those which were
Coming to the House. These railways had obtained a
monopoly from Parliament, but Parliament had a per-
fect right to interfere with them for the public benefit.
Ile would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman not to fetter
he powers of the Committee with any of those shackles
which he seemed disposed to cast upon them. He would
tit: allude to a subject with respect to which the Right
to: Gentleman had involved himself in a mystery-
--synePeting lines. The Rightlflon. Gentleman's proposition
aeir teat a competing line would not be beneficial to, but
ar against, the public. Now, let him suppose a case. The
e hWestern went to Bath, the South Western to
I..liampton. If by any chance or accident they could
a line which should make those two lines com-
.),"ng lines, there would be a benefit to Southampton
ir.tegath. In .such a case, how was it possible that
It should be any disadvantage to the public ? He '
anted the Committee to examine how it would be pos-
ele, by favouring competing lines, to benefit the public
31 the mere fact of competition, the effect being to
rower the prices in each competing railway. If there
i'vtias but one railway in the whole of England, command-
itt °very possible communication, the company to whom
be e,biged would be the ruling power in England. If
ly
\i„ could divide them—if
competing power against the Great
suC,estterb, he benefited the public ; and if he introduced
of,.e,s and regulations which prevented the amalgamation
ie two companies, he conferred a great advantage on
be,,,,ewrimunity. When the Hon. Gentleman talkd of
11;''' railways having peculiar powers or peculiar rights,
a,!llistook the whole question. Post railways had no
& except those which Parliament conferred upon
ni and Parliament, for the :benefit of the commu-
ti4' blight revise and alter the rights which had been
aid:- The Committee should have the power of con-
reseilig' what means might be adopted for preventing
tiers, I fto the community- by monopoly. He had
un-
the 00(1 that on certain great lines of communication,
tini "'Tally had made their arrangements in such a
itles,;:`"r, that whereas the first class train arrived at its
e„,_wo_ation in six hours, the poor man, who was obliged,
2i,Z his want of means, to travel in the third-class
for ft:" exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather
ur-and-twenty hours.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
„ire.ct. that on the Great Western Railway there was
third class train by day.—(Hear, hear.) He would
glad to know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
p
Pre
044 w
a s red to deal with ost railws far as this
2.44 Pa
concerned ? Were they to seek ay
toso induce those
cone_aYs which had obtained powers from the House to
ought
ect eto their wishes? In 13is judgment Parliament
tato say to them " We havo conferred certain rights
-
ir Ze„e_ You but as we find that you..do not use them as
xPeceted, we will compel you to do what we require."
eolli the case of a poor man going down to Bath. He
not go by day • he was obliged to go by night.
e must A ,
his
se stem.. the whole time; there was no place for
cot,f_e°,laModation ; he had 'no means of obtaining those
the first
which were accessible to those who travelled in
eisso class. He (Mr. Roebuck) travelling the first
Was in a place which was very much like a draw-
-1,-,-1,5-room, where he was comfortable and warm, and
-"en he arrived at a station he could go to a fire. The
base of the poor, who travelled by the third class was al-
together different,' and some alteration was necessary.
lie hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would do all in his
Oewer to adopt the system of laying down new lines on
existing roads. They had chosen in their extravagant
Way to lay out 60,0001, and the public ought not to pay
'beh an expenditure. He was prepared to say, that if
once showed that they could do the thing at 2,0001.,
i:tat was all the public ought to pay.--(Hear, hear.)
it felt no doubt that the time was not far distant when
41"itild be shown that railways might be laid down at
Oen, less than the present proposed expense. He
1114ii1).ed the House would deal with the subject with an
aching hand.
to„..:r RUSSELL denied the statements of' the Hon. and
pass'e ed •Member for Bath, with respect to third class
use_be_ers. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had
le stritteril that the third-class passengers' were compelled
toverinu'
.tinrin 'the journey, and also 'that there was no
l)qore g to the, carriage. He (Mr. Russell) wished,
%sem the Hon. and Learned Gentleman made such
aabe ect °xis, that he should inform himself better upon the
l.
kr w A
melt— "-IZACE said, he was glad that the Govern-
hohad determined to enter upon this inquiry, and
AoktiP,eti that it would be carried out in the spirit pro.
ttrepteduYthhe Ron. Member for Bath, and some course
h,gh Poorw ich would render .equal accommodation to
, as that which they formerly had upon the
'LYS ref Great Britain and Ireland, for it was only
itd be establishment of railways that this distinction
uPqn 41°1.1 made. In the various Committees which sat
is sub act in the years 1833, 1834, and 1835,
bare was taken to inquire into the prices which
woutike rged as fares upon the railways ; and at
be " was asserted that the different companies
41e vin,loP_erfectly satisfied with six or seven per cent.
13J, tolie us railway companies were, like all other par-
,iv!srlg after
.their own interests, while the
1.1!Ieli the as never consulted at all in the rate at
iNvitway heares should be fixed. On the Grand Junction
use, could safely assert that the ftires had been
y.„7 with red, and he dared to say that the same was the
-1; eO4 most of the railways throughout the kingdom.
ct
shoi,gonot see why some protection from cold and
4402 ea "a not be afforded to the poor man in the third
le, fi ge, and he thought that the profits derivable
osa
sotrs
eht,`gag
k es. iirbe greater accommodation to the humbler
tholl
l4ted avo',ll°Ped the Committee now about to be ap-
Ilith tuo inquire into the whole question, and that
t
to rie; Gentleman would not alone limit the
te" 111$0 railways about to be formed, but that it
tO the extend
de to those existing at present. and a
thee,Wostiee„ of accommodation and comfort be afforded
irt,. pt,.s classes.
the Ouse said the question more properly before
111, e4sesPfW,ise, the regulations that should be adopted in
aaltril)rotress railways, and he thought it important that
44,4,41.4 h,°t legislation should not be interrupted.
tat(o4l)Bleased:"l4; perfect right to attach what conditions
St ri °lithe hey had a perfect right to place limi-
g, rghtto erofits of new companies—they had a per-
(s. erence act from the new companies regulations
kooticyt. peepthird-cla.ss passengers.—(Hear, hear.).
44 Y--the Lwas not at all unaware of the evil of
rtluNite.4 to monopoly which, he thought, Parliament
p4atte,,, eontend ray companies.—(Hear, hear.) Still
arhs,,al dist or this great principle, that there was
Z,11(1 Cent for 'nation between companies approaching
Add compant,°__ first time nad asking for new powers,
arli,,Vested t's which, upon the faith of Parliament,
gr nii,.nr capital and had established lines.
granted those repent their indiscretion for having
tteae, --(lleavr"',.ers, but still the powers had been
11" "ear-) He would not deny the com-
,, e pr-otse to I„...mitellt to interfere, but he had advised
fallief, litmus before they did interfere with
tl,.it which
ou„ich haalli the management, of railway com-
ttt. as arlieur,e_e_il called into existence by the au-
tea as his , The Hon. Centleman had said
Zilts th 7 ys ktte_7.,?er..ence in railway companies went,
hie he CL, to their own interests. Why that
44ere ‘!ettled ".u. Soul of all
e' but A:' be selfishcommerce. .It was that
1441'try. wh'eh call interest—which vilified corn-
gut ed into action the industry of the
it
tewatisi The
B,,,e,hei.bleTg selfishness was perfectly natural,
btroi d not d ultimately led to the public good.
thtt:,se a tehse..s,e. eorngliVh.atParliament had a right to
o,171: saw t`lious regar7,_
_But he advised the House to
4414`;' and tVese couipaniessuo Iwneeregrde great
dip unbgli clsinterest.p
elrf
ti es only Y were told
tO Years ago that those corn-
levt._ the prce,•! ground the
lithuPon that
kirt down o.‘ts Of thoofset_hYee.o.emslupabiamjniedes,
vige. six or seven per cent.,
spec athreiyghwtetroe interferethereby
They
v w
ear. would be destructive of
jeuciple,
'k 'ellen • n'-7(Hear which
) They must take a
_ les not consider that
subject in legislating upon
INett*"Y °lust
ill these great
rget, too, that
great
Public public
vact money had
lto,i:,xPeraled, and farthing of the
eY zeaild that fro Yet
ypreasivaetes ethapeiatapl..
gnat not 1.0 lb tlie apioation f a
.age had re-
in moan

plication of that capital had been unproductive of any
profit whatever. While there were companies whose
shares were selling at 250, yet there were others whose
shares were offered at forty, or fifty, or sixty discount,
but still a great public advantage was derived from those
very companies. -Look at our bridges, our roads,
and our railways, from which the public derived great
advantages, without having given one farthing towards
their construction. The Hon. Gentleman said the com-
panies ought to be compelled to adopt third class pas-
sengers. If the House interfered thus far they would
have to take the whole management of railways under
their control. They must become responsible for all
accidents. To suppose the House of Commons and the
Legislature could do this was impossible. He perfectly
agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the public ought to
be allowed the advantage of new discoveries in science.
He (Sir Robert Peel) would advise existing railways
to consider well what would be the result of the applica-
tion of the atmospheric railway.—(Hear, hear.) Emi-
nent men, who had seen the practical working of this
railway in Ireland, bad come back very altered in
opinion as to the possibility of applying that principle
generally. He believed that two brothers, men of the
Jewish persuasion, were entitled to the credit of this
invention. The experienee of its working, over a very
few miles in Ireland, was such that very great doubt
was entertained whether or not it was not capable of
general application at a trifling comparative expense.
Agreeing with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone),
that it would be unwise in the Legislature to encourage
two competing lines running very near each other; yet he
was sure his Right Hon. Friend did not mean to ex-
clude that competition which was greatly effectual—
namely, such competition as would take place between
London and Manchester, through different lines of coun-
try. He (Sir R. Peel) did not think that a sufficient ac-
commodation was given by railways to third-class pas-
sengers. But then it might be urged, on the part of the
railway companies, that if they were to give additional
accommodation to the third-class passengers, those who
could afford to go in the first and second class carriages,
would go in the third class. It was clearly the interest
of the different railway companies to attract as many
passengers as possible, by carrying passengers at the
cheapest rates. It was perfectly right that the House
should retain to itself the power of holding out the
threat of competition to these companies. But it should
remind them that the advances which were being made
in science, must eventually diminish the profits ; but he
trusted that the House would never consent to such a
violation of th.c principle, or to attempt to reduce the
rate of profits by. legislative interference—(Cheers)--or
by interfering with the management of these companies,
for he was convinced that the affairs of these companies
could never be so effectually conducted, as when they were
conducted by the proprietors themselves.—(Cheers.)
Mr. STUART WORTLEY agreed entirely in opi-
nion with the Right Hon. Baronet. When he considered
the absence of competition, he was really surprised at
the amount of accommodation which the railway com-
panies afforded the public.—(Hear, hear.) Persons in
their station of life had no reason whatever to complain
of the accommodation afforded them by the railway com-
panies. He hoped the President of the Board of Trade
would consider the suggestions that had been made to him,
and confer more extensive powers on the Committee.
He thought some alteration should take place in the
composition of the tribunal appointed to assess the com-
pensation to be granted to persons whose property was
taken by railway companies. Every one conversant
with the subject must be aware how very imperfect a
tribunal that was which at present granted that com-
pensation ; it was assessed at present by a jury—twelve
men taken by chance, without any power to challenge,
who might or not be interested in the question, and who
frequently granted a sum very inadequate to compensate
the parties for the loss of their property. He would
suggest that the question of compensation should be
referred to arbitration, and he hoped the attention of
the Committee would be directed to the subject.
Mr. P. M. STEWART, finding that the Govern-
ment, although not adopting the suggestions of the
Right Hon. Member for Taunton, were yet willing,
virtually, to accede to them, would not oppose the
motion. His Right Hon. Friend the President of the
Board of Trade had laid the ground for the revision of
the railway laws.—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that
there were defects in those laws, and yet there was to
be no inquiry on the subject. He thought the Com-
mittee ought to have the power to inquire into the
working of all railways, and he believed, by doing so,
great convenience would be given to third-class pas-
sengers by all railways. Another great reason for com-
pleting the revision, and having a thorough Report from
the Committee was, that at this moment, owing to the
great encouragement given to railroads on the Con-
tinent, and especially by the French Government, Bri-
tish capital was, to a great amount, seeking for invest-
ment there. Before the Committee dissolved, instruc-
tions ought to be given to the Committee to embrice the
suggestions of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Taunton, without which their Report would be de-
fective, and their labour injurious, with regard to gene-
ral legislation.
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he found railroad com-
panies always looking to their own advantage without
any reference to the public. He was, therefore, op-
posed to all railroads—(Laughter)—and he saw no
reason to alter his opinion. He called on the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer to levy a tax on railroads. They
were the cause of the ruin of a number of kersons, such
as inn-keepers and small shop-keepers in provincial
towns. Those persons were now in poor-houses, and he
thought it but fair that those who caused their distress
should be taxed. He had seen an Administration which
had lost all credit turned out of power, and he hoped he
should live to see all the existing railways become bank-
rupts.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said there was one point in connec-
tion with railways to which he wished to call the atten-
tion of the House, and that was the undue use which
was made of them on the Lord's day. He was quite
thes appointmenturethattbeßi of thisHon.ght Committee Gentlemanoittee ldwwohuohmadosptrcoaplmose4
contemplate every desecration of that day.
Mr. F. FRENCH said he could not let this opportu-
nity pass without saying that a sum of 20,000,0001. of
public money.had been expended on railways in Eng-
land, and that he thought the fares were nearly treble
what they ought to be.
The motion was then put from the Chair and carried