The Sun.
London, England, 1844-05-14 00:00:00

WALES.

Colonel WOOD wished to know from the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home
Department when it was the intention of the Govern-
ment to originate any Bill founded upon the report of
the Commission which sat last year in -Wales ?

Sir J. GRAHAM said a I3ill was in course of
preparation, founded on the report of the Commissioners ;
it was already in an advanced stage, and he hoped to
introduce it next week.

THE FACTORIES BILL.—MR. LIDDELL.
Mr. LIDDELL said, however reluctant he was to
take up the time of the House on a personal matter,
yet he found himself so sharply attacked in the
newspapers of that day—(Great laughter)—
for a crime of which he was supposed to have been
guilty, that he must take that opportunity
of setting himself right, in a few words, with the
House and with the public.—(Laughter.) In the
columns of the Times, he was asked if he could pos-
sibly he aware of the baseness of his conduct?—
(Great laughter)—and the Morning _Herald said that
he had not only made shipwreck of his own character,
but also of that of his party.—(Roars of laughter from
the Opposition benches.) It was all very well for
Hon. Gentlemen to laugh ; but it must be recollected
that these newspapers exercised a considerable in—
fluence over the public mind—(Hear, hear)—and
those were rather hard words to apply to a Mem-
ber of that House, who gave a perfectly conscientious
and independent vote.—(Hear, hear.) He wished to
take that opportunity of repeating what he had stated
at the outset of the observations which he made
on Friday last, that during the whole of the
discussion which had taken place on that subject pre-
vious to that evening, he had never on any one occa-
sion, either by his vote or his language, given any
person the slightest encouragement to suppose that he
would support the proposition of a Ten Hours' Bill.
ADJOURNED DEBATE—FACTORIES

BILL.
On the Order of the Day for resuming the ad-
journed debate on this Bill being read,
Mr. M. MILNES said, that if he had been aware
that any other Hon. Member wished to adjourn the
debate, he would not have trespassed on the
attention of the House on a question which had
already been sufficiently debated. He desired, how-
ever, to have an opportunity of expressing to her
Majesty's Government his regret for the words which
he had used on a former occasion, in the
heat of debate, and which, upon calm
reflection, he thought were disrespectful.
As far as those words were disrespectful, he begged
to offer to her Majesty's Government, and particu-
. larly to the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Home Department, the most ample
apology. He was also most anxious to express
to the House his adherence to a phrase which fell
from him on a former occasion, a phrase by
which, grave as it was, he was prepared to
stand to—he meant the phrase, " The national
guilt of the unrestricted factory system." He would
ask the House to remember the words which were
used by his Right Hon. Frieilid the late President of
the Board of Trade, the Hon. Member for Taunton,
who told them that, if their principles were just,
they had incurred great national guilt by not en-
forcing them sooner. He would ask any Hon. Mem-
ber of that House who was familiar with foreign
countries, whether the English factory system was not
regarded by the whole of Europe as a great evil ?
He would ask whether, in return for all the obloquy
which we cast on America for her slavery, we were
not told to look to our factory system at
home, and to get rid of our white slavery, before
we reproached them for their black slavery ?
There might be, in that reproach, much jealousy of
England and spite towards our commercial great-
ness. There was a time when our commer-
eial interests were represented as the factory
system now was. Even the poet Cowper
employed his talents to render our commerce
odious. It was true that the cause of all that obloquy
was our dealings in the slave trade, and did they not
remember that when some of the best men of the
country were labouring to procure the abolition of
that trade, they were met by arguments and sta-
tistics to prove that all the great interests involved
in our commerce would be destroyed. The same
arguments were now used against the abridgment of
children's labour in the factories, but he could not be-
lieve that they would not prove equally unfounded.
Should that House, which voted 20,000,0001. of the mo-
ney of the country to procure the abolition cf slavery
in our own colonies, arid in doing so risked the
security of the great and ;important West India in-
terest—should they hesitate to abolish every trace of
slavery at home ? But:what was slavery ? It was when
a human being held his life at the will of another.
Now what was life ? It was the living hour—it was
the power of religious instruction and moral educa-
tion ; this it was that constituted the difference be-
tween the man and the slave. It became them, there-
fore, to remove the evils that were existing in factories
with the same earnestness as they had set about re-
moving slavery. His Noble Friend had brought this
question forward, because it was impossible by any
other means that education could be given to the
young in factories. They might do all they could to
give education and recreation ; but if they continued
the system that existed with respect to young
people in factories they never could derive any
benefit.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that labour
alone was the property of the poor man ; he denied
that—he had a property as well as others in the bless.
ings of education and of life. The Hon. Member,
having adverted to, several of the cases which had
been quoted on Friday night by the President
of the Board of Trade, observed that he con-
sidered that the Right Hon. Baronet might as
well set up every tenth day as the Sabbath, as
he might speak in favour of this measure. He
considered his Noble Friend had made out an a priori
case, and he believed no one, with the exception of the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Tower Hamlets,
was of opinion that the factories in this country were
an Arcadia. It was a pity they were not so.
Every one had agreed that, supposing wages were
not diminished, there would be an advantage in the
women and children of the working classes having
their two hours each day. They had been met by
the declarations of the unadvised ability of interfering,
but that abstract question had been disposed of for
ever, by the enormous majority of that House. The
principle of protection had been admitted, and
the question was how far it should go. It had
been asked why they should interfere in this
subject and not elsewhere. They were bound tointerfere
because they had the power, and with the power in-
curred the responsibility. All legislation consisted of
interference. He instanced the late interference with
the operation of Art-Unions, and the stopping of the
old system of lotteries. Again, the very violent, but
very proper interference of the police the other night
with the gaming-houses at the West-end. Was not
that an interference with labour ?—(Great laughter.)
It was an interference with policy if not with labour.
In the present case it was the people who called on
them to interfere. With respect to the effect of inter-
ference on wages, he understood that one of the largest
firms existing in England had come to the
conclusion that they could work their machinery
sixteen hours a day by two relays of men of eight
hours each, and that they would be enabled to make
the same profits as they now did, and to give the same
wages for eight hours' labour as they now did for twelve.
The manufacturers might at first be unwilling to pay
the same amount of wages when the time was re-
duced, but he believed they would do so in the end,

and the labourers were themselves willing to chance
the reduction of wages. If he had studied political
economy at all—(A laugh)—he knew of how much
importance it was to ascertain the limits of the
subject, and that there were some questions to which
it was inapplicable. If a reduction of two hours took
place, it I would he of little use to the labourers if
means were not devised by which they might spend
them profitably; and he was confident that the eminent
manufacturers of the country—such men as the Mar-
shalls, the Gregs, the Ashtons—would find a means
of making it profitable to them. The importance of
the foreign market had been dwelt upon, but from
the improvements which were every day taking place
in machinery, and the facilities which were af-
forded for its exportation, it would be impos- .
sible for them to hold the exclusive market of the ,
world. If • the Government thought it of •
such importance, why did they not take off the duty on
raw cotton ? The Government had placed themselves
in a wrong position before the country with regard
to this measure. They were accused of inhumanity,
and want of feeling towards the working classes,
but how much was this at variance with the greet
provisions of the present Bill ? By taking a different •
course, they might have avoided placing themselves in
such a position. Protection to the factory worker
was now equivalent to a Ten Hours' Bill, and a Ten
Hours' Bill they declared they would have. Petitions
had been presented to that House against such a mea-
sure by 360 masters. What must be the feelings of
the workmen towards those 380 masters who
petitioned against them ? The Government declared
they had gone far enough, and would not go any further.
It would have been better for the Government to
withdraw the Factories Bill than refuse to go further.
But they knew the necessity for having this Factories
Bill ' • they knew that all the assertions about non-
interference were unmeaning and vague, and that a
Factories Bill was as necessary for the country •
as any Bill which could be brought before
the House. Believing, confidently, therefore, in
the successful result of this measure, whether then
or at some future period ; and agreeing with
the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland that
the people of England had never determined to have
any great measure of a social or political nature
which they did not ultimately gain, he hailed this
Bill as the harbinger of a better system of legislation
than had hitherto prevailed ; he hailed that confusion
of parties which they then witnessed as something
better than the banding of Honourable Mal-
hers for the purpose of misrepresenting their
opponents. He saw banded together on that
occasion a large body of men, who were more
regardful of the social interests of the people
than of any political consequences. He did be-
lieve that that Bill would lead to many
im-
portant results. He did believe that if, on the
question of the corn-laws, it were distinctly made out
that the repeal of those laws' would be for the benefit
of the mass of the people, the corn-laws would.
be repealed.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
He believed that that and all other great social
questions which came before them would have ,
better chance of coming within the dominion of
argu-
ment, and that the people would repose in that House
such confidence as had never been reposed in it
since the time of the Reform Bill. There was one -
other subject upon which he would touch
very lightly, on account of its delicacy. Some Hon.
.Members had declared their intention of voting that
night differently from what they had voted on other
occasions. He was not going to make himself
their censor; but he implored them to remember
that in the opinion of the whole country they would •
for the future be marked men, and that the factory
question would henceforth be . regarded in con- •
flexion with their names.—(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government bad
told them that three months hence all those Ilon•
Members who upbraided her Majesty's Government
with their obstinacy would admire ther firm"
ness, and applaud their consistency. Now he
believed that her Majesty's Government would regav
with more respect those Hon. Gentlemen who held fa"',,
,
to their purposes, and maintained their principles,
than those who, for the mere sake of saving them
from some momentary inconvenience, should that
night either remain away, or register their votes
against the proposal which they had supported 00
former occasions.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD said the Hon. Gentleman who had
just addressed the House had resorted to a most eon;
venient mode of settling this vexata questio. He hi"
assumed that an a priori case had been made out ill
favour of his Noble Friend's Bill. He said that
men on both sides agreed that if the Bill could he
passed without reducing the remuneration of labour'
or diminishing the wealth of the country, it Os
most desirable that it should be passed. Why tha,
was a truism in which Members on both sides 01
the House concurred ; but the question was,
whe-
ther the proposed remedy would not aggravate the.
evil? The Honourable Gentleman said the question 01
adult labour had been settled by a majority of that
House. Why the House had formerly decided that $
pound note and a shilling were worth 275. It had for'
merly settled the wages of tailors at 23.51 d. under or-
dinary circumstances, and ss. 7&d. in cases ofmournini'
But in six years this was repudiated as '
jurious to the interests of all. The Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Milnes) justified his at;
dent desire to interfere, because the House hal!
the power. But was it not necessary to look to
the right before they exercised the power—(Hear)
and ought they not to look also to the probable con'
sequences ?—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
said that political economy was a very ill-used science
—that few understood the proper limits
which it should be restrained. He knew that this _ques-
tion no longer admitted of going much into detail.
House was tired of it ; and for that reason, on a feriset
tv..!
night, he was restained from replying to the argurlierl..,:",
on both sides of the House, although he had much P'",
vocation to do so. His Hon. Friend the Member o_,
t,
Weymouth had reproached the political philosophei;
as cold-blooded theorists who treated men as if they who,'
mere machines, or as pieces of wood upon a skittle-boa
to be knocked down as it they had no sense or feel
—(Laughter.) The Hon. Member for Nottingham 5.1
that he hated long chimneys and political economy'
voted three times in favour of the Bill, but now he en
round and voted with him (Mr. Ward), being convinqi
as he said, of his argument. That showed that he v.i.06`,0.
first, and reflected afterwards.—(Laughter.) The 00,0
Gentleman always ridiculed the theorists, but what
theory, after all, but to consider, before you do le
thing, what its effects might be ?---2(Hear, hear.) Bar
had observed that those friends of humanity never ca
_o
ried their principles beyond the point where they he
to affect their own interests. Now, what was the ,p,
sad first best thing to be done, for the working classe'tbe
was it not to give them food ?—(Hear, hear.) Brit
moment any attempt was made to render food el le.
and abundant, some one or other of those friends °five
inanity stood up and said, " No, no, we cannoV•aufor
that to ba touched." His Hon. Friend the Member ed
Weymouth (Mr. Bernal) exclaimed, when they pr‘uYl
rop
to give the working classes cheap sugar, " Oh nefi 1100
connected with the West Indies, and I cannot $
tha'f."--(A laugh.)

Mr. BiERNAt-LI never said so.
red,,
were WARD—So, on the other side of the Hotteethted,'
were met by the cry, "Agriculture must be proteelmo4
when they attempted to give cheap and abundant 7,,a
to the people.—(Cheers.) On a former occasion he 01.4
accused the Noble Lord (Ashley) in rather strong "0,
of misrepresentation and exaggeration, not thsit eft' "
aggeration was his intention, but because the rp.:,.
,„-.
and
dente
the
Noblefro Lordvm which
ichnahtueralretneodugwh was
seacotnhte i'l4
radi,toce,
that was most in favour of his own views. Vevol'th-,4-'
could be more contradictory than the evidence of clef
men, physicians, and lawyers. That was not to be
too
dered at ; for you can prove almost anything by ge, ijos,
up a commission, and allowing a few clever phY6'e Do'
clergymen, and lawyers to manage it. ; There via°(-10"
thing that could not be proved by a commission °oll
quiry. He remembered that one medical man I_7f the ,
that the tailors were, as a body, liable-to nearly 41,,,0r
diseases that could afflict humanity ; yet the tailors Oviere
selves being indignant, proved that, as a body, theYished
remarkably active, fond of athletic.games, and•forrestr ,
one of the finest bodies of men to, the armY.--nogr ; I
hear.) Other trades-were treated in the same Irs and :•••
all were found to be liable to some peculiar molatue-o.itter,
he believed the healthiest were stated to be sloue' This...
house men and tallow melterS.—(Laughter.)_,os.
showed they ought sometimes to distrust these 1-' rwrt,lif
They ought not to do anything to disgust anon 01
labour. He was far from wishing that the coieirit
the people should not be improved; and be bel'ev hy
was
was capable of improvement ;. but it
more ill- r
ameliorations of their fiscal system, „begat,
the power of the Chancellor of the Ex,,,-. pie
than a ten hours' clause in an Act of Parliarneciage", '
tory labour must be compared with that of other
ci„,,...sas
and it would then be found that there
which had still stronger claims to protectioli,:ung lice,
were other There
were the female nailers of Sedgeley, and the 3:,.,° at yibo
makers of Buckinghamshire. Then let theta low to st•
' was doing iu this town ; look at Bethnal- "
grce, 1:11 o°s
Giles's, and other places ; look at the maidsir r
__, beery
of the metropolis, who worked more then fotet_e7.tieter,
a-day, and who had not the Sunday, whichnteo,reece_ o_
labourers enjoyed. He called the present i , ".,L,rci
.the,
alsidod_bre:swraehobwillit:
Memberb lind andfeblunderingh
had
cei benevolence. eennce*r i
sTalyie
self to the commercial view of the subject, oP_"fall in the
his argument ? He admitted there would be
3 ii
production and wages. But he said
rwoold„i: ors
amount of coal, and oil, and tallow, which
coal Pr"-, their
quired. But, would not this affect the
amount produced would be made unfro-mlosstb-7.: less
m rket 1 ' used
American - a us
woollen manufacturers in the
would be so
would be the case, less cotton
WOW(' have
on
of the north ? Would it not affect the price 0. f as
in ten hours than in twelve ?
in conveying Imotile
every person employed
art of it to . k the
articles of the country from one pa .
11.,,,,, to rls barn
were willing .er u-
effect on the shopkeeper and shiitp.ownert,hean:ta.pl_re.
It was said that the workmen
put fairly before them. The clergy h
-ea that the c't the
fore them. Dr. Hook represent
fall of wages. He believed that poinat pandotnpellt pon,
question before them in a proper igellept letter
_on
read ,
would be an Arcadia. The onlyi
Holly, rector of Bury, whose ,
"Lientienian e ,
tb clause
subject he would read. (The Hon-
the working
thst letter.) The general feeling of tetrtscoaisi wthrnic. Jiro.