The Sun.
London, England, 1844-07-27 00:00:00

NEW WRIT.

A new writ was ordered to issue for the borough of
Cirencester, in the room of T. Master, Esq., who had
accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
WINDOW DUTY.

Captain PECHELL wished to know whether unglazed
lights, for sanatory purposes, were subject to the window
duty ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
give no opinon on the subject.
BOOKS AND ENGRAVINGS BILL.

The House then went through Committee on the
Books and Engravings Bill, and the report was ordered
to be brought up on Monday.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
place in Ireland against the Charitable Bequests (Ire-
land) Bill ; also a petition from St. Luke's, signed by
6,000 ratepayers, praying for the release of Daniel
O'Connell, Esq., and his fellow•prisoners.

POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice, that on Monday, he
should move that the salaries of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners be reduced to 1,0001. each ; and that the salaries
of Assistant Poor-law Commissioners be reduced to
400/. a year each.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM then moved the third read-
ing of the Poor-law Amendment Bill.
Colonel SIBTHORP rose to oppose the motion. He
regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Trea-
sury bench, to whom he was anxious to give his sup-
port, and of whose talents and integrity he entertained
the highest opinion should have considered it his duty
to force forward this Bill in such a manner. He was
surprised to find that the Right Lion. Gentleman thought
-it right, at the last moment, to refuse him (Colonel Sib-
thorp) the return for which he had moved on the sub-
ject of the Poor-law Commissioners. They received
large sums of the public money, even the Assistant
Commissioners had 7001. a-year each, which was
more than the pay of officers in the army and
navy. He desired to know how that money had been
applied, and he would tell Hon. Gentlemen that it must
come out.—(A laugh.) He hoped Hon. Gentlemen
opposite would assist him in opposition to this Bill.
Mr. B. COCHRANE was glad to find that there were
Hon. Members found to discuss this Bill, and to propose
amendments in it, notwithstanding the lateness of the
period at which it had been brought forward,
notwithstanding the disinclination of the Go-
verument to discuss the condition of the
poor of this country, and in spite of the taunts and
sneers thrown out by Hon. Members behind the Treasury
benches against those who ventured to occupy the time
of the House. This very Bill was a confession that
hitherto. they had been legislating on a bad system ;
and with regard to the two great points of out-door
relief, and of the separation of man and wife, on which his
Hon. Friend the Member for Evesham had brought for-
ward a motion, the Right lion. Gentleman was obliged
to confess that they had departed from the principles of
the Bill. The present poor-law had not checked paupe-
rism. It increased with our population, and every im-
provement in our manufactures lessened the demand for
labour and increased pauperism. Ile had met with a
fanciful supposition'the other day that the Pyramids had
been built to find work for the poor. But now every
ning was done to throw them out of work. At the
great agr'cultura.l meeting the other day, the Prussian
Ambassador stated that the King of Prussia had said,
how happy a country England must be where old things
were a; new, and where the new were identified with
the old. lie should like to know how this new
poor-law was identified with old things, and what
hold it had on the sympathies of the people?
He thought this measure ought to form the principal
consideration of her Majesty's Government at an early
period of the next session. He believed that the time
was not far distant when they would be obliged to repeal
the law altogether. It' he lived till the next session he
should give any measure founded upon the principles of the
present law his di tided opposition.
Mr. HUME thought that it was to be regretted that
Hon. Members who talked of the prejudices of the
people to this measure should in that House do all they
could to fan that prejudice. He believed that the great
cause of complaint in the measure was that its provisions
were not properly carried out. With regard to the
Commissioners they had a most ardent and difficult
du. y to perform, and he could only say, being
one of the Committee that sat in 1838,
when an inquiry was made into the conduct of the Com-
misione.rs, that the result of the deliberation of that Com-
mittee was a recommendation to continue the Commis-
sioners in preference to any other tribunal. Those who
were anxious for the c ndition of the poor ought to
ach,pt far different measures to those, which were cal-
culated to increase their disaffection. _

Mr. HARDY hailed the present measure with pecu-
liar delight, because it was calculated to take away a
great number of the severities from the present measure.
fie ten lered his best thanks to the Government for the
manner in which they had proposed their alterations to
the Bill, and he trusted that it would give satisfaction to

the country.
Mr. BORTHWICK said that whatever might be the
ultimate effect of machinery, it could not be denied that
it inflicted a great evil in transitu which fell very heavily
on the poor. With regard to the present Bill, it
was about to become the law of the land,
and he sincerely hoped that everything that
would be now said respecting it would tend
to make it work well, and for the benefit of those to
whom it was to be applied. He was confident that the
Right Hon. Secretary of State had acted throughout
from the purest motives, and they must all feel indebted
to him for the ability he had displayed, and the
courtesy with which he had listened to the suggestions of
those who had felt it their duty to make them. He
was convinced that the machinery of the Act had been
worked so as to produce an effect the reverse of what the
authors of the Bill intended ; and he expressed a hope
that the recent declaration of Sir J. Graham would in-
duce gentlemen more readily to act as guardians of the
poor than they had hitherto done. He believed it was a
good Bill—(Laughter)--that was to say, as far as it went.
—(Oh, oh.) But it was not extensive enough entirely to
reform the evils of which they complained. But as far
as it went it ameliorated the condition of the poor, mid
admitted at least the defects of the existing law.
Mr. WAKLEY said he believed the magistrates
throughout the country were generally aware that
they had the power of ordering relief to old per-
sons, provided one magistrate would certify, of his own
knowledge, that they required it. But what the magis-
trates complained of was, that they could not order the
amount of relief or its quality. It might be given
either in money or in food, and might be so stinted as to
force the recipients into the house to save themselves
from starvation. With respect to the Bill, he did not
think the Government could complain of any unjust
opposition having been offered to it, considering the late
period of the session to which it had been delayed. The
alterations that had been made in it would work well
for the poor, and he should cordially vote for the third
reading. He regretted that such observations as those
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Bridport
should be made in that House. It was too late in the
day now to exclaim against machinery ; the supposition
that it destroyed human labour was a great fallacy. On
the contrary, it created it to an enormous extent.
The regulation of machinery was another question, and
it should only be dealt with by wise and experienced
heads.—(Hear, hear.) The principle of the law
of 1834, the workhouse test, was ndw gone ; for the
Right Hon. Gentleman told them that seven out
of eight persons received out-door relief. He believed
the new poor-law had been productive of very great
disadvantage in one respect. It had been asserted
in that House and other places, that there ought
to be no poor law at all. He was afraid that this
feeling had worked its way into various classes of
society. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that if the
Poor-law Commissioners did their duty, they would be
the protectors of the poor. It was quite clear the poor
needed protection somewhere, and he hoped they would
receive it from the Poor-law Commissioners. The
declarations as to there being no necessity
for a poor-law had had a pernicious effect on the
rate-payers and the guardians. He believed
the ex officio guardians were in favour of far more strin-
gent regulations than the elected guardians.—(Hear,
hear.)' The attempts made to reduce the salaries
of medical officers and other persons had driven the
Commissioners to resort to an expedient which he could
not but call most preposterous. He begged the atten-
tion of the House for a moment to this matter ; it was
the most curious in medical history. They had all
heard the expression, no doubt, " No cure, no pay."
With reference to the payment of medical men, the
guardians had been so stingy and so niggardly, that,
in order to give medical men an emolument somewhat
approaching to their circumstances, the Commissioners
had hit upon the expedient of giving extra pay under
peculiar circumstances. Well, now, what were those
peculiar cireums'ances ? " For the amputation of a leg,
5/. ; for the amputation of an arm, 5/. ; for the ampu-
tation of it foot, 5/. ; for the amputation of a hand, 5L,"
&c. Thus, for cutting off a limb, which was one of
the simplest operations in surgery, and which took only
a few minutes, the operator generally not requiring to
see the patient more than half a dozen times subse-
quently, the remuneration was 51. Now, for a
bruise requiring the utmost care and skill to
prevent mortification, and surgical attendance day
by clay, perhaps, for weeks and months, what was
the extra remuneration ? Not one farthing.—(Hear,
hear.) Was anything so preposterous. ever heard of ?
remuneration to
toa
..--(Hear, hear.) ll.' believed that, if the Commissioners
• •No men made greater sacrifices for
pis post.e ous scale.
hadmcd medical
the sake of. the p ,or than medical men, but, by the ettl.le(y)l. wouldgiving
neveraleq adequate
pre-
sent system, they were laid open to the most unjustifiable
imputations. H
He knew an instance in which a man who
had his feet frost-bitten had been taken into a work-
house; the surgeon had recommended amputation, and
another surgeon who had been called in consultation, also
recommended it; the man refused to submit, and Nature
had since performed the operation, for a part of the, feet
had sloughed off. Now that surgeon had been exposed
most unjustly to the imputation of having wished to
perf .rm a needless operation. He hoped the Commis-
sioners would, in every case, insist on boards of guardians
properly remunerating medical men, and then there would

be no necessity for the introduction of such a novel system.
He hoped, if other alterations should be found necessary,
the Government would introduce a Bill next session, and
the sensible portion of the public would be thankful to
them for their exertions.

Mr. BICKHAM ESCOTT thought it would be diffi-
cult to say whether the general effects of the law had done
harm or good. In some unions in which it had reduced
the rates, it had reclaimed a vagabond population, whilst
in others the rates had been increased, and both rate-
payers and paupers were dissatisfied. He congratulated
the Right Hon. Gentleman on having introduced such a
useful scheme of education into the present Bill—a
scheme which contained all the good but none of the
evil of the education measure of last year. With re-
gard to out-door relief, as the subject was important, he
would again state what he had previously said on the
subject. As had been remarked by the Hon. Member
for Finsbury, two justices possessed the power of order-
ing out-of-door relief to old people out of work. But
the beard of guardians also possessed the power in cases
of emergency. The Commissioners had excepted from
their prohibitory order all cases of sudden and urgent
necessity, leaving it entirely to the boards of guardians to
determine what cases were cases of sudden and urgent
necessity.—(Hear, hear.) It had been said that the law
had caused the recent calamitous events in Suffolk and
Norfolk; that the peasantry, goaded to desperation, had,
out of a spirit of revenge, destroyed the property of their
superiors. He did not believe that such a state of baleful
feeling existed among the peasantry of this country.
They knew that everywhere labour was the lot of the
multitude, and that the lot of ease was that of a few only;
and they also knew that attempts of this kind would only
aggravate their sufferings, and end by bringing on them
the vengeance of the law, for he trusted that the law
would always be found strong enough to vindicate the
rights of property. He was satisfied that they never
would have an economical system for the relief of the
poor until they returned to parochial divisions—(Hear)
—or at least until they had smaller divisions than the
unions now in existence ; and he would quote the autho-
rity of the Duke of Wellington in support of his argu-
ment. The Hon. and Learned Member then quoted the
opinion of the Duke of Wellington, which was to the
effect that the present law was only for the purpose of
bringing back the law of the 43d of Elizabeth. He
begged again to express his sincere pleasure at the fe-
licitous termination of this Bill, and the improvements
which it had undergone in Committee.
Captain PECHELL asserted that the people of
Brighton, however their opinions might have been mis-
represented, were entirely averse to the interference of
the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. BANKES said, notwithstanding the changes
which had taken place in the poor-law during the pre-
sent session, it must not be considered that the question
was finally settled. It would be open to every Hon.
Member in future sessions to propose further modifica-
tions. Among the defects of the present measure was
the immense extent of some of the unions, which was
in all respects disadvantageous and inconvenient to the
poor, but in none more than the difficulty of obtaining
medical aid, which the extent of these unions in
most cases involved. He hoped it would be found prac-
ticable to limit the expense of the machinery of the
system. With these observations, and congratulating
the House on the improvement which had been made in
the law, ho would not trespass further on their attention.
Mr. BARNARD regretted that the Right Hon,
Baronet had not conceded the power to two magistrates,
which several Hon. Friends had so strongly pressed
upon the Government.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the question of medical relief
was under the consideration of a Committee, over which
Lord Ashley prerided. He did not mean to say that the
present system of medical relief was perfect, and would
be happy to make such changes in the law on a future
occasion as, with due consideration to economy, would
afford greater accommodation to the poor, and more
adequate remuneration to medical officers. He felt
deeply indebted to both sides of the House for the
favourable manner in which they had received the Bill,
and tendered every Hon. Member his sincere acknow-
ledgments. With respect to the bastardy law, a very full
discussion took place on the power of appeal, in Corn-
:nittee, and tho BLII contained the almost unanimous
opinion of that Committee. He would not trespass
further on the attention of the House.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the third reading of the
Turnpike Trusts Bill.
After a few observations from Viscount EBRINGTON
and Mr. CRIPPS. the Bill was read a third time.
JOINT-STOCK BANKS REGULATION BILL.
This Bill was read a third time, and passed.
The Transfer of Licenses (Post-horses) Ireland Bill
was read a third time and passed.
GRAND JURY PRESENTMENTS (IRELAND)