The Sun.
London, England, 1844-02-24 00:00:00

aes •
°44.tation, and all the evil consequences that follow from it,
ve„ Al be permitted to subside.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
should rejoice, in whatever capacity I was, considering
it would be the happiest day of my life when I could
"le s the beloved Sovereign of the realm fulaing the fondest
wish of a heart—(Cheers)—full of affection towards all her
people, but mingling affection with sympathy and tenderness I
towards Ireland—(Loud cheers)—and should hail with joy
the dawn of that auspicious day when she could alight, like I
some beneficent spirit, on the shores of Ireland, andlay the
foundations of the temple of peace—(Cheers)—when she could,
in accents which, proceeding from the heart, would speak to i
the heart rather than to the ear, call on her Irish subjects of all
classes and denomination3—Protestant and Roman Catholic, i
Saxon and Celt.—to forget the differences of creed and of race,
and hallow that temple of peace of which she had laid the
foundation—to hallow it with sacrifices holier than those with •
which the temples of old were hallowed—by the sacrifice of •
those evil passions that dishonour our common faith, and ere-
vent the union of heart and hand in defence of our common
country. (The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst the I
loud and long-continued cheering of the Ministerial benches.)
Sir Valentine Blake, Lord John Russell, and Mr. Roche,
stood up together, for the purpose of addressing the House, but
the Noble Lord and the Hon. Member for Cork gave way to
Sir VALENTINE BLAKE, who attempted to address the
House several times, but at each attempt was met with such
shouts as " Divide, divide," " Spoke, spoke," " Lord John
Russell," that the Hon. Gentleman was obliged to sit down,
after having moved the adjournment of the debate, amidst con-
siderable laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh."
Mr. ROCHE said he rose for the purpose of seconding the
motion of the Honourable Baronet who had just sat
down, and, under present circumstances, he would not
attempt anything so unreasonable, but the House would recol-
lect that the party with which he and the Hon. Baronet were
connected, had been accused by the Right Hon. Baronet of a
crime the grossest that human nature could be guilty of,
namely, that of willingly deluding their countrymen by a wilful
perversion of history.—(Laughter, and cries of "Oh, oh.")
Considering the position which he held with regard to Ireland,
'he did not think it would be very unreasonable to trespass
upon the attention of the House for a few minutes.—( Cheers. )
The Right Hon. Baronei had represented his Learned Col-
league as saying that the Parliament which existed before
1800 was a desirable one, and he charged them with
wishing to restore a corrupt Legislature. What
his Hon. and Learned Friend had said was, that in the 18
yeara previous to 1800 no country had made such strides in
advancement as Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Why did not the
Right Hon. Baronet controvert his Hon. Friends statements
with regard to the subsequent acts of the Legislature towards
Ireland? He thought that such a course would have been
more appropriate. He regi etted that the Right Hon. Baronet
did not give them more hopes for Ireland—that instead of
flinging unworthy appellations at the agitators, he did not
grapple with the grievances which made them agitators.—
(Hear, hear.) He might depend upon it, that if he did
not grapple with them, they would grapple with him.
—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) They were agitators, he would
never deny it; and he was sorry to say that they were likely
to continue agitators, for there appeared to be no disposition on
the part of the powerful majority in that House to take from
them their spell.--( Hear, hear. )
The motion for the adjournment was then withdrawn.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in rising to reply, said that in the ex-
hausted state of the House he would not address them at any
great length, but there were some points which had heea
• raised in the debate, to which he could not avoid adverting.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State, for the
Home Department, had taunted him with the course which
he had taken on that occasion. Now, he had sta'ed last year,
his opinion with respect to repeal, and the repeal agitation,
but he did think the period when Mr. O'Connell was convicted
in a Court of Law was not the proper period for saying any-
thing disparaging of that. Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He
bad stated when the country was to a large extent confided to
his care the preservation of the peace was essentially aided by
the course which Mr. O'Connell took with regard to
the Chartists and the trades' associations.—( Hear, hear.)
He should never regret that he had subjected himself to that
imputation, for if any thing could be said in favour of the
course which Mr. O'Connell had pursued for the preservation
of the peace of the country, he thought that the present was
the moment for saying it.—(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had said that he (Lord John Russell) must wish to
see his motion defeated, because if he had not, said the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he would have proposed resolutions at once
for the purpose of bringing under the consideration
of the House measures to remedy the grievances of
Ireland. He could not, however, but recollect
that such a motion had been proposed in the course of last Ses-
sion by an Irish representative, had been treated as a vote of
censure on the Government, and rejected. He was, therefore,
perfectly justified in bringing forward the present motion. The
Right Hon. Secretary for the Home Department in speaking
of his (Lord J. Russell's) observations with regard to
Lord Lyndhurst had left out the purpose for which
those observations had been made. The traversers in Ireland
had been indicted for attempting to excite feelings of ill-will in
the minds of the people of Ireland against the people of Eng-
land, and his object was to show that Lord Lyndhurst, the
Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, and Mr. Bradshaw,
(perhaps he might as well have left his name out), had pre-
viously used expressions tending to irritate the people of Eng-
land against the people of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Lord STANLEY—What words did I make use of ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—The words used by the Noble Lord
were " minions of Popery."
Lard STANLEY—Those were not my words. They were
cited by me as used by the Hon. Member for St. Alban's, on
the other side, and were never applied to Catholics at all—
(Ministerial cheering)—but to the Noble Lord and the Mem-
ber of the Government who acted with him.—( Cheering and
counter cheers.) The denial that the words were ever used
by me, was made last session : and if the Noble Lord will re-
fer to the debates, he will see that they were never used by me
except as a quotation from the Hon. Gentleman oppoosite,
and were never applied to Roman Catholics at all.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was not aware that the Noble
Lord had made this explanation last Session. He had stated
that the words had been used by the Hon. Member for Wood-
stock, but the adoption of those words by the Noble Lord—
Lord STANLEY—I never adopted the words.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh.")
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it extremely strange if
the words have never been used that they should have been
quoted in the sense they had been by the Hon. Member
far Sheffield. But with respect to Lord Lyndhurst, he had
said nothing against that Noble Lord's character ; no one
could have a higher opinion of that Noble Lord's talents
than he had; but he eontended that it was his hostility to
Ireland which had procured him present office. He had
spoken of his carelessness in the performance of his judicial
duties. Perhaps that was an ill-considered expression ; but
he considered that the Noble Lord was more indebted for his
high station to his political talents than to his judgments in
the Court of Equity ; and with regard to the charge of judicial
carelessness, none of those who had spoken en the other side had
taken pains to contradict that, neither had any one thought proper
to defend the charge of the Chief Justice. The Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland, who had passed a high panegyric upon that
eminent person, would, he thought, have praised him for the
display of that calmness and sobriety. of demeanour which be-
came a judge in the exercise of his judicial functions • but the
Right Honourable Attorney-General had completely passed
by the charge without observation. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man, at the commencement of his speech, had stated that he
should not speak with the acrimony which he ( Lord Jr Rus-
sell) had used, but with great temper and forbearance.
Then the Right Hon. Gentleman went on to say, after some
description of what his conduct had been, that he would
rather have cut off his right hand than have retained office in
the circumstances under which they (the late Administration)
retained office; and, with respect to Lord Plunket, he (Lord
John Russell) could not help thinking that the Right
Hon. Gentlemen's expressions savoured of some of that
acrimony which he had attributed to him. (Lord John Russell).
Some of the circumstances connected with the retirement of
Lord Plunket he would now mention. It had been stated to
Lord Melbourne, that Lord Plunket at his thedadvanced age,
was (desirous of relinquishing his post. Lord Campbell
wished to know, as the dissolution was about to take place,
if he would go and stand as a candidate at the elec-
tion for Edinburgh. Lord Melbourne, on Lord
Plunket's desire to retire being communicated to
him, directed that the Attorney-General should be
made Lord Chancellor of Ireland. A few days after that had
been communicated to Lord Campbell, it was ascertained that
Lord Plunket was not desirous to retire. Subsequently it was
ascertained that Lord Plunket would retire, and then Lord
Campbell went to Ireland. No disrespect was ever intended
to Lord Plunket. He (Lord John Russell) had always
considered that Lord Plunket was the most eloquent
man he had ever heard in Parliament. But with re-
gard to Ireland the measures that would sustain autho-
rity which they proposed were always supported by gentlemen
. opposite; while those measures which would conciliate the
people of that country, and tend to restore tranquil-
lity, were invariably obstructed by them. The Right
Hon. Gentleman has alluded to the Coercion Bill. Did
he disapprove of that measure ? If he did, he could much
better get an account of the details of it from the Noble
Lord (Lord Stanley) hear him, as he was then
Secretary for Ireland, than from any, ether person.
The great reason which he (Lord J. Russell) had 'for the in-
troduction of this Bill was, for the protection of property and
the prevention of outrage and murder in the rural district and
for no abstract motive, and on these grounds he gave full con-
sent to it.—( Hear, hear) The Right Honourable Gentleman
had spoken of his Landlord and Tenant commission in Ireland.
He (Lord John Russell) looked upon that Commission with
some doubt. The Right Hon. Gentleman must admit that it
Was calculated to disturb the public mind, by raising indefinite
expectation in Ireland on the subject of tenantry. He (Lord
John Russell) could not forget that when Mr. Drum-
mond used the expression that property had its
duties as well as its rights, it drew down a strong
lecture from the Right Honourable Baronet opposite,
and now he (Lord J. Russell) had with some surprise the
Right Hon. Baronet declare that one of the objects of the
Commission would be to bring to light the abuses of this
system. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of the great
question of the Church, but he could not support the Right
Hon. Baronet's views on that subject. It had been said that
the Church was meant for the instruction of the people, but
in one case of which he read to-day, there was
only one Protestant in tha parish, and how
Could that clergyman be called the instructor of the people
when he held not the slightest communion with tnousands of
Catholics in his parish. He thought there could be no doubt
about the feasibility of paying the Catholic Clergy by
the state when in the year 1825. Dr. Doyle
consented to the adoption of such a measure. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had said that he (Lord John Rus-
tell) —had been very careful not to put his motion
in such a manner which should commit him to any
particular course if he were again to come into office.
Now, considering that he (Lord J. Russell) had proposed the
extension of the franchise in Ireland, both Parliamentary and
municipal, an increased grant to Maynooth, and a perfect
equality in civil rights with England, he did not
think, that during the ten years when the Right
Honourable Gentleman was out of office, he had proposed-
any measures so distinct and so comprehensive.—( Cheers.)
The Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies cautioned him
to weigh well the responsibity of bringing forward this motiou
He (Lord John Russell) thought there was much less responsi.
bility in making the motion than in leav:ng the state Of
Ireland undiscussed. If he had not brought forward this
motion the repeal party would be strengthened. It would be
said, that no matter how Ireland was governed, it would give no
concern to the English Parliament—that the House was very
busy about the Horse-racing Bill, but that it was nothing to
them what was done in Ireland.—(Cheers.) The whole cause of
the debate appeared on one side, and the other to induce
the people to think that their case would be considered in the
English House of Commons.—( Hear, hear.) The manner in
which he had been supported, and in which the debate had
been conducted, would show the Irish people that to that
House their petitions should be addressed, and
their grievances should be considered. He thought
that his proposition would tend to unite them
more and snore with the English nation. He greatly regretted
that recriminations should be introduced into the debate and
he was sorry that the Noble Lord had thought proper to
read the terms of the Catholic oath.—(Cheers.) Who
could mistake the meaning of the Noble Lord.—(Cheers.) I
What would the Noble Lord say if be were a witness in a court

of justice, and an acrimonious lawyer were to remind him em-
phatically that he was sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth ? Would he not think that it
was intended to insinuate that he required the caution ?
—(Cheeps.) What else could be the feeling if the Roman
Catholics—( Hear, hear)—and must not be an encouragement
to others who were less informed than the Noble Lord, and
who were too apt to apt to assert that the Catholics ought not
to be in Parliamen , because they did not regard an oath ?
( Hear, hear.) He was far from wishing to hurt
the feelings of the Noble Lord, or injure him
in the estimation of the public. On the contrary, he
held the Noble Lord in the highest esteem, and when he was
invited by Lord Melbourne to take the lead of their party in
that House, when his Noble Friend succeeded, he expressed his
wish that the Noble Lord would return:to the party with
whom he had acted in early life, when he ( Lord J. Russell)
would be perfectly willing to follow him as leader—
( Cries of hear, hear) but he thought that with
the Noble Lords talent and influence he ought to be careful
how he increased the unfriendly feelings between the different
classes of the people. It was necessary that they should give a
frank and full confidence to the Roman Catholics so as to end
these melancholy distinctions.—(Cheers, and cries of " Di-
vide, divide.")
Strangers were ordered to withdraw. The House then
divided, when there vppeared—
Against the motion...
For the motion
Majority against the motion
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Four o'Clock.