The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-08 00:00:00

Ns&
1/00!ster with respect to the Clifdsn unions. The
teathmsinber had stated that landless:a were in robs,ar
1110 v, ;di they had refive 1 a fair rate. TIC was not
Plisisee(ci L° five the Came' of his correspondent, but he
(lhelniniself to prove the truth of his statemeihitlt
kppeti_els.neerablo Member read the Jotter, from which
:slim': that the three principal estates in the C
fe •'re in the Court f Chaacery—that previous to
l'une the district was in a state ( f great prospe7ity
tisol)"Nrossive improvement, bet that ever since that
o'aPsris and - • had ravaged it.
is4Q disease, einigi atom
a Proprietor had effered Mr. Twistletoe, the
ktes ,41,*. Commissioner, 1,000!. f growing gran; for the
%ey:-'eh were due upon it, amounting to 400/, but
litih,e;e refused, and the consequence was that the
fulit ever since been lyins, waste. The workhouse
,11,(16, Some of the best mansions of the proprietors
Converted into auxiliary workhouses, and other;
t , Ikrrs sll,t uP, though they belonged to families who had
100 every shilling in Ireland.) He did not
11 tr. the district himself, but nave the statement as it
keirteo forwarded to him. What he objected to for-
khi was the Honourble Member's making charges
°Pillisnin'TlMous information, which were, in 11
ttisasi::xaggsratei in themselves, and unwarranted
hßotra tin a body of men, some of whom. had,..anteea9ll
, 'ine their duty under very difficult circumssa
qos '''''AIGHT said he could not have the least oltec-
11,4tiZ the statement which had been read by the Hon.
to'' because it did nos appear in the slightest de-
;ll%ds s,-I,4vslidate any of the statements he had formerly
th
lioreference to the unions in the west of Ire-
stli,h,ts et:mid only say that every one of these state-
r made on as good an authority as that on
14",,,ttlia"te 11°3. Member hal made a counter-state-
r night, with the exception of one, and that he
nttlecreetoe as soo'n as it was shown to bo erroneous.
he, statements were not the question before the
r)sessT\tlear)—they had hal a great many sensible
qtis'll.B' and some not very sensible ones, referring to
: before that House, but he had never heard one
'Ass 'eservins- the support' of the House, or less
l'4o,:tiist:i.,en,uaennter the ojoposition of her Majesty's Go-
Plie n that of his Hon. Friend the Member fur
,st; h etaflipper ted that motion, because he believed
ktil;;'' fa as those alleged demanded instant yeti-
Ilisei°-,and redress. The Government instituted in-
-1 Into Many things less woi thy of steam-boat on
oNki:srajoes' the Right Hou. Baronet. would institute a
n' In order that he might know the cause
'Ct). a
t ion'
loss of life which these accidentsl
sl‘'Ws-te;asi°n• Why should the effects of the whose-
11testi;e"`°!13 not oleo be inquired into and the causes
from operating? One proprietor alone had
Obis -47) less than 1,0,15 persons, or equal to 200
s„'skna it had been calculated at a low rate that at
ligss,fi-viPerson in every family thus turned out died.
Pis ~ti'd give 200 deaths from that one estate. Were
to in •
such a state of things as that?
ittlebthe ignoqaunirene
d s r into
of the landlords, the
sklltl4l- "ea let and cultivated in such a manner that
:te,,e failure of a single crop they could not sustain
St'it'ites: he asserted that neither the principles of
l ti n;:conemy nor the principles of our common
eetaq Y permitted the owners of the soil to commence
eZterminatins• system.—(Hear, hear.) The
l'i)lisee,iltber bad talked of proprietors who spent every
ilktt 'OlO Ireland. He believed that. They not only
q(l4itioe,erY shilling of their own, but every shilling bed-
iitetV the people that they could lay hold of, instet!
telliln__ith prudence, moderation, and forethought in
dreamt,llKeinent of the revenues deriverl from their es-
tle House, he thought, acted with too much
11°Issl'ess to persons thus situated. Ile was not to be
'1 the term confiscation. If the millowners of
71)i 'eater were to ant in a similar way, and leave the
''tit'leesitl:Pl°Yed and dependent upon them to starve
' the House would no doubt speedily interfere.
itheginot i' Member for Limerick said, that the landlords
th union had laid a rate of 3s. in the pound.
jllBlfo,l4in that 3s in the pound was not enough, when.
thatukt Leto consideration the fact that rents were paid
itrli and that grants had been given to it from
1/4"stitir4t. He said that when the landlords came un-
ed-sciretimstances to that House for assistance,
s7trille;;'auee they received was in fact a bonus upon
i")ke,-441 lied the extermination of the people. If the
Oettilent were to agree to the motion, and seed a
landlords
man to take the administration of the
It,andlords would soon see that they could no
"hletii „"ift the burdens from their own shoulders in
e'er4"(l give that employment which they now
tke„'-' If the Government took that resolute and
Ts Course, they would soon see an alteration for
ls! tee-r' .in the' general employment of the people.
4edeo.s Won of his Hon. Friend was so simple that
4talki,4 !t would be agreed to. They would have the
Zbefore the House, and the real cause of Ire-
ttl'qb,,:BerY would reach the light. There was no-
a,e' excess of rates, and if this state of things was
teltistle, nothing remained for Ireland but misery
„141,7\telion,—(1-lear hear.)
I?it.thki'PLAFIERTYI said that,
_while he admitted the
44ta.t°PY of the Honourable Gentleman whose
tberbefore the [louse, he did not think there was
:iltiyaheeessity for the inquiry, or that it would load
ttile6i,°°(l. He was chairman of the union of Clifton,
(le ill gad to state that the English proprietors did not
iqqpt'u' rates. Surely these proprietors ought to pay
teal": or how could the people be supported ? He
s4ls 'Norm the House that the poor-law now
ttsfloit Well in Irland. This taw and the Encumberedwasim.
Aet were well calculated to produce great
lylrt-ext!t in Ireland.
,70011 E supported the motion, and said he
".°3O-ilis"t was due to the people of Ireland to make the
1:6,-;llaigniry.
‘.6
of ARUNDEL and SURREY said it was
hieetee
„e that there was an excess of misery in Kil-
,,klf44;uat hardly evebefore existed in a civilized or
eitth state of society. It was also admitted
‘,10,10:e landlords had acted unfairly towards the
the out still they did not know the cause
N% Present misery in Ireland. acceded to the
kitt4 bestowed on Captain Kennedy,liaendwhile he ads_
tko " that the landlords in Kilrush were deserving of
is ~that
th • upon them, he must exempt from
0616 sure
Colonel Wyndham. The
4011:,„14(1 (LordnJk. Russell) said they had info/7m-
•st the in respect to the subject under discussion;
litchontended that more information was necessary,
"11, 43 was so, they ought to have it. The Right
recentleman (Sir W. Somerville) said that frauds
lb
ellmilted by the guardians in the Kilrush union.
should like to have all these frauds laid before
.geaki'''°. He should like to know how the estates in
ite ,1 were and had been managed for 3 ears past.
all events, he would say, that it was their duty to
ee-ttit,ing to save the lives of the people in Ireland.
ssmliti,',Pie were so degraded by the present state of
id th"lat he was not surprised at anything they did, nor
Ltlliqii-7 be blamed for their actions. In supporting the
117111 for a commission it would be shown to the
"R"f Ireland that there were persons in that House
It44llttiPethised with them in their difficulties.
r„te-eZe in that House must be thankful to the Hon.
forthe zeal and determination which he
sPiar d in bringing the subject forward,
Ia• Nista ••eing-the discouragement shown to his doing
•. ding-the
ik, ra, 4,ear.)
qattf,"'ILLIAM SOMERVILLE said he did not say
ill lisitt:tls had been committed in the union of Kilrush.
Aieta'q'•veas, that such a statement had been made
els`pewe lienaedy.
CRth;BOROPEE would not detain the House by
tlld reply. All admitted that if the facts. which
114.(1-1ae 4 were true,. the necessity for an inquiry
sufficient
kltlitt-n"oti before shrem onj tbe subject; but if they had
s4l''."lttt;eefeetaryorinformation required on the question,
theeturee, he asked, had been brought in to re-
, be, ,evils of which he complained? If nothing
r the" done for the people, of what
.use, he asked,
5,44 °lt. Information which it was. said they had?
C4,Y Shill" year they were going on in the same
et; tie it did not seem as if they were to have any
eolitt:l of thes -stem. The Hon. Gentleman, in re-
Ptose,,to the plan suggested by the Hon. Member for
f
said he had doubt but if the resources o
ere developed, the evils of which she had to
Rl/4 -4
w
,1 Wouldberel,ved.—(Elear.)
PRENCIi said- the Hon. Member for Man-
t•-id the rents in Ireland had been well paid.
FIT—No, I did not.
vßENca—The
..Hon. Member said that the
ere well paid in Kilrush and other places
he
1,44.4-teds and lie (Mr. F. Frchch) was justified
that the Hon• Member meant to state that rent.
tilte,,A'ad Were well paid. He could speak for the west,
'hts4? Parts of which the rents had not been paid for
tt:t't °ll,rs, and in other parts for two years. With re-
tile proposed inquiry, he saw no advantage that
t
sitis 7,e gained by it; on the contrary, he thought,
tn'tek'kerfere with the efforts now malting by theCshoe-
`ll)l:;tit and ethers, to improve the condition of t
-ThC 4 the union in question.
-'l,;(ntee then divided, when there appeared—
. eur the !notion ''• •••
63
The
AgainsMajority
76
—l3
motion Was consequently lost.
kr, VOTE BY BALLOT.
"titeß. ;11. BERKELEY then rose to move for leave to
,4t "re 'II a Bili to protect the Parliamentary electors of
Sr :ritain and Ireland from undue influence by the
`tie h "-le ballot. He said that if he were in need of
tiny
p INcogy for bringing forward this motion, it was
aBo :111se the hour at which he brought it forward
Cwhet cf the latest. (It was then nine o clock.)
atePeet to the motion itself, he considered it of
'°to -,'q) importance, that until some Hon. Member,.
is:;'Petent for the task than himself, undertook it,
mee 14(1 continue to press it upon the attention of the
,11.484;--(near, hear.) He. found in her Majesty's
eqt 4t the opening of this session of Parliamenetcat
‘,,LthEtt4cl,l4°(l constitutional maxim. It was to the effect
s;". sit CY Combining liberty with order, by preserving
81,:tn valuable and amending what is defective, you
s' the fabric of our institutions as the ass
to Theit
hie? ee of
i$
free and hap mimepl Nothing could
ttocould be more de-
the Government
tierePt, aise ; but ht.eosimittend
Vie ,v 0 Ise Ministerial tree bore e.uc—h blossoms the
tz,r ahl expect to gather some fruit. (Hear, hear.)
hbetsl „„e assortion of liberal principles unattended by:
•h ",t,3 w
Ilee a 8 much about the same as a etriet ob
to W,B `-'1" religions c.• remonies without, Christian deeds.
,sithere to ask the House uric the Government
"44 the •
What
ws„e„.maxim he hal just quot.sd, to amend
tc:Qter defective by interposing a shield between the
s4ersupt And:pose who for their own purposes attempted
almosts hopeless to
tteshl;rtehai:„,qnii.nleitioHi.i peallauataebwl.er ititno wasil House, but he hoped
indulgence by avoiding as
Flati.m to thei
toshr.n.nle he. arguments she had used on previous
VL!'r of , tle considered the ballot to. be the most pe-
`ocll h
„lull those measures of Parliamentary reform
4`4 hoe; submitted to the House by his Hon.

Friends on various occasions. He consieered it to be
the primary step to those cher measures of icfortn, be-
cause it was a stepping-stein to them. He thought it
less objectionable to the generality of Nlemner-, because
in seeking it they sought to alter no existieg institution.
They soneht merely to protect the elector in the dis-
charge ef a duty weich they had entailed upon him, and
because at present he wai unable to discharge that duty,
from Me obstructions mid abuses which hal crept into
our eleetoral system, and which were as notorious as the
longitude and latitude in navigation. This simple pre-
position, simple as it seemed to him, had alWays hitherto
bees met with lively indignation. Minister after Minister
came down to that House driven to his wits' end to
prove that some vitel objection existed to a man dis-
charging his duty sub silentio, even when it was con-
fessed that ho aas unable t o discharge it vied voce.
This was, in his opinion, a very difficult question to
argue against, whilst the arguments" in favour of it
were, he thought, irresistible. The arguments against it
had been gradually dwindling away—they had become
" small by degrees, and beau ifelly less," until, at length,
they had ended in silence end hard voting.—(llear,
hear, and laughter.) When other questions of Parlia-
mentary referm were brought before the House, there
was no want of eloquence against them on the part of
their opponents, but the moment the ballot was men-
tioned Hon. Members became perfectly mute. They
shied and dodged the question by every means in
their power. When Mr. Ward brought forward his
motion on the subject, in 1842, the same comp'aint was
made, and the grew, difficulty then, as now, was to get
tee Government on their legs.—(llear, hear.) The con-
sequence was that people believed that they opposed the
measure for other reasons than those which they as-
signel, and the people were ready enough to assign
reasons for them. The. people believed that they op-
posed the measure solely because they could net endure
to see the upper classes and the aristocracy shorn of
their undue and unconstitutional influence.—(Hear,
hear.) The course he intended to pursue on the pre-
sent occasion was to meet some of the objections which
had been most lately put on record as arguments against
the measure, He foiled that they had a fresh opponent
in the field. Ho found that they had to contend with
the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary of State for the
Hoare Department (Sir G. Grey). That Right Hon.
Gentleman was formerly a supporter of this measure.
The brilliant eloquence, the acute logical powers of that
Right Hon. Baronet made him an undesirable opponent,
while his high character, and the important position he
held in her Majesty's Councils, made his example most
dangerous.—(Hear, hear.) It was for this latter reason
that, feeling as he did his utter incompetence to cope
with such an adversary, with some hesitation he had re-
solved to ask the Right Hoe. Gentleman to explain some
parts.of his conduct on this question. He begged to
say that he did not assume for a moment that any gen-
tleman was compelled always to remain of the same
opinion. Grave statesmen and Right Hon. Gentlemen
on both sides of the House had changed their opinions
frequently, and with their opinions had changed their
votes; and he must say, as an humble individual, that
he had thought them perfectly right. There was the
question of the corn-laws, for instance, upon which the
Noble Lord the Member for London, the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member f Tamworth, the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Ripon, and other great
statesmen, had changed their opinions and votes; but,
before they did so, they gave that House, the country,
and their constituents the most complete, elaborate,
and anxious explanations ; and he submitted,
that if they had not adopted that course
they would have appeared, in the face of the
country, as so many unequivocal and nuked rats.
He (Mr. Berkeley) therefore maieteined that Hon.
Members who changed their opinions on so important a
question as the ballot ought to follow a similar course,
and give to the House and the country a most complete
and ample explanation. Now, how stood the facts of the
case? in 1848, when he (Mr. Berkeley) had the-honour
to propose and the good luck to carry a resolution—
(Laughter)—in favour of the ballot, the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) did not vote. The friends of
the motion first btcerne aware of the loss they had sus-
tained by that melancholy obituary of departed Re-
formers—the division-list of the House. The Right
Hon. Gentleman appeared in the House on that occa-
sion; but like the phantoms in Macbeth, he came like a
shadow and so departed—he pointed to his vote and
glided noiselessly out of the lobby. —(Hear, hoar,
and laughter.) When the Honourable Member for
Montrose brought forward the general question of re•
form, he (Mr. Berkeley) ventured to arraign the silent
system, and then they had the Right Hou. Gentleman's
explanation. And what did it amount to ? It seemed
that in 1838 the Right Hon. Gentleman voted with the
Government for The ballot, and when Mr. Ward
brought forward the question in 1842 he voted with him
also. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that his
reason for so voting war, that he then represented a
cohaituency (Devonport) where uudue influences
prevailed, and that therefore he had been induced
to give his reluctant support to the ballot. In 1847,
however, the Right Hon. Gentleman became Member fur
Northumberland, and as that was a pure constituency—
as ho was then breathing wholesome air—and as be had
at length escaped from the foul atmosphere of Devon-
port, he thought it right to turn round and vote against
the ballot; the reason he assigned being, that public opi-
nion had of late acted so powerfully upon the upper
classes that they had become politically virtuous.—
(Laughter.) Surely never before had such a reason
been given by any statesman fir a vote.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been laid down by Burke, that when a Member
entered the House of Commons he entered it as Member
for England, and that he should not attempt to legislate
for the county, city, or borough which returned him,
but for the community at large. He (Mr. Berkeley)
left the House to say whether, upon this principle, the
Right Hon. Gentleman's reason for his vote on the sub-
ject of the ballot would hold water. He begged to
call the attention of the Government to another ex-
traordinary circumstance connected,with the House of
Grey. In 1837 Lord Howick. then Member for
Sunderland, now Lord Grey, voted aginat the ballot,
the reason he assigned for doing so being the
same as that now assigned by his Right Honourable
Relative, viz., the increased political virtue cf . the
upper classes. In 1841, however, the Noble Lord, having
been defeated in an election contest for Northumberland,
turned short round upon his former opinions about the
increasing purity of the upper classes, and showed that
he had been talking nonsense on the subject, for at the
declaration of the poll at Alnwick the Noble Lord made
a most sweeping and unmeasured attack upon the Duke
of Northumberland, Lord Tankerville, and his oppo-
nent Lord Ossulston, for unworthy trickery, for un-
scrupulously violating their promises, and for unduly
influencing the electors. [The
.Hon. Member read ex-
tracts from the Noble Lord's speech at Alnwick, as
quoted by Mr. Ward in his speech on the ballot in 1842.]
Mr. Ward on that occasion claimed the Noble Lord as a
proselyte, and challenged him to support him with his
vote. The Noble Lord, however, contented himsef with
walking out of the House without voting at all. It ap-
peared, therefore, that the test of purity of political opinion
in the mind of the family of Grey was a Northumberland
• election. If a Grey was rejected, straightway the commu-
nity was plunged into the d?pths of vice; if a Grey
was successful, the electors were immediately full of
virtue.—(Laughter.) But now, as to the fact of the
increased political purity said to be found among the
upper classes. There was a Committee which inquired
into This subject in 1836. That Committee had evidence
laid before it from all parts of England and Ireland—
evidence which it was impossible for any one who had
not actually read it to conceive. In 1848 he had quoted
in extenso from that evidence, and proved that a general
state of demoralization characterised all elections at
which anything of party spirit prevailed, and succeeded
in establishing cases not to be upset—and he defied the
Right Hon. Gentleman' to upset them—ot the grossest
intimidation, corruption, and malversation, in every pos-
sible way, of the franchise. As an appendix to the re-
port of that Committee, he might point to the evidence
before almost every one of the Election Committees from
that time to this—(Hear)—evideace proving that the
5i.1113 demoralization, the same intimidation, the same
corruption prevailed after 1836 as before 1836.—(fIcar.)
He would usk which was to be believed in preference,
the bare bald assertions of Hon. individual Members, be
their position whet it might, or the evidence on oath
taken before so many Committees, backed by the distinct
statements of rants adduced by other Members of the
House whenever the subject had been discussed 2-
-(Elear, hear.) There was the distinct evidence of the
Hon. Member fir Birmingham in 1848 and 1849, who
stated, of his own knowledge, that no election for the
great city he represented ever took place without at least
1,000 of the electors being prevented from voting by in-
timids.tion.—(Rear, hear.) Tne Hon. Member did not
mention the many hundred other electors who on all
those occasions did vote upon intimidation and against
their consciences.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Member who seconded his motion in 1849—the Mem-
ber fur Macclesfield—showed, from his own experience,
state of intimidation into which the metropolis
was plunged at every election ; and he had himself
given on the same occasion examples of the intimida-
tion practised at pariicular elections. He required the
Right Hon. Gentleman to show to the House what in-
crease in political virtue had taken place in the upper
claszei in 1848, 1849, and 1850, that should supersede
the goodness and expediency of the ballot, which he
himself admitted, in 1333 and 1842:—(Hear, hear.) He
presumed thaothe :night Hon. Gentlhinan would have
the tact to avoid, on the present occiLloli, the obsolete
claptrap that formerly served a turn—about the unman=
liness and the un-Englisliness, and so forth, of the ballot
—the twaddle about its being cowardly to give a vote
and conceal its object.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman must see that he might us well suggest it as
cowardice for a man to use his watch and then conceal
it, since the political ictirnidator and bully had no more
right to your vote than the pick posket to your watch.
Nor, he conceived,• would the Right Hon. Gentleman
venture to suggest that the English people were less fitted
now than in 1842 for the ballot, after the proofs which
the Government had received of the sound sense, intel-
ligence, good feeling, and loyalty of that Teeple, in times
of great excitement abroad and sedition, nay, of rebellion
at home.—(Hear.) Perhaps., indeed, the Right Hon.
Gentleman might contemplate the proposition that the
people were less anxious about the matter now, because
they did not so anxiously agitate the question. Let the
Right Hon. Gentleman beware of such an argument as
that, lest he confirmed what was said against his Go
vernment—that it refused to reason what it yielded to
agitation—(Hear, bear) —lest a e justified the character
of the Whigs given by Lord Anglesey, that they were
tide-waiting legislatore, who flowed in on the tide of re-
form, who steered with its slack water, and floated back
with its ebb.—(Hear, hear.) To the individual Mem-
bers who might be dispcoed to stay also at what they
thought slack water, be would give the earnest advice to
refl,ct maturely on the position of things in this year,
1850. The threat of gentlernerr on the Opposition
benches to appeal to the country must be ringing in their
ears—(Hear, hear)—end, ringing there, it could not
but bring to their minds the last appeal of the same sort
which led to the general election under the contending

b inners of free trade and prot ,ction in 1841, and to the
er!sults ofohat contest, H oho appeal t'ss;n was an ap-
peel to elereoesslisatian, v.het sec:Wei an appeal now be?—
(Hear.) It would be an apnea' in which wealth and
power, putting on the rcrew to its last round.
would override the towns, and rtilk over the counties,
ti ampling on chartered richts more basely and unblush-
inely than ever before.—(Hear, hear.) It would be an
appeal to strength to dictate to weakness, an appeal to
w( atth to crush poverty, an appeal to the House ef Lords
to elect the Rouse. of Commons.—(dear, hear.) He
would say one word as to the vain aveinpts of recent
legislation to deal with the least of the evils of the pre-
sent electoral system—the evil of overt bribery. They
had made laws stringent enough against overt bribery,
but they had entirely owit'ed the prevention of secret
bribery, and of that intimidation by exclusive dealing,
which contained within itself the very essence of bribery.
—(Hear, hear.) They had, in short, strained at the
gnat and swallowed the camel. Exclusive dealing was
the right arm of intimidation—the essence of bribery in
its very worst firm. In the case of simple bribery you
gave a man a reward for selling his conscience; vou,
perhaps, saved him anti his family from ruin, from
starvation, and the actual positive good ac-
cruing, though no excuse, might be taken as
an extenuation. But in exclusive dealing you
punished, you perhaps ruined a man and his
firefly, because he f Mowed his conscience, and there
could be no doubt which was the worst offence. Again,
they had passed a me leave by which it vs•as impossible
for a man to stand against treachery and rascality; he
referred to their law of agency, under which agency was
definable to be a man's walking arm-in-arm with a can-
didate, or being seen in his committee-room, or placard-
ing one;ef his bide, or wearing his colours, and so on, the
further fact of any such person afterwards giving a
sovereign to an elector being deemed sufficient to eject
the candidate, if elected, from his seat.—(Hear.) lie
had on this point consulted many of the most eminent
election agents, and they were unanimously of the opi-
nion that under this law, after a general election, there
would be more seats unjustly declared void on petition
than had ever been declared void before, justly or un-
justly, from the utter vagueness and unlimitable extent
of the definition. and the wide field given to simulation
of agency.—([fear.) He had urged this question on the
House in the honest conviction that it was a measure due
to the people of England, to the constituencies who
elected that House, a; a measure called for by justice
and by humanity; and he now committed his short
sketch to them, wpm-el to receive counter-conviction
from any man who could furnish him with it.—(Cheeas.)
Lord DUDLEY STUART seconded the motion. His
Hon. Friend had endeared himself to the people by his
able, unyielding, and in one case, successful advocacy of
this most important principle.—(Hear, hear.) He was
convinced that there was no question on which the
country felt a deeper interest; no object to the attain-
ment of which they were more thoroughly entitled. It
was demanded alike by all who possessed, and by all
who sought the franchise, as the only means of giving
them the secure exercise of that franchise. Without the
ballot the elector could never substantially enjoy the
vote which the constitution gave him. The ballot was
alike his due, whether he claimed the franchise as a
trust, as a right, or as a privilege. In relation to its
character as a trust, it was objected that those who so
exercised, being responsible for its exercise to the non-
electors, could not consistently conceal its application;
but this argument, at all events, could not be justly held
by those who resisted an extension of the franchise on
the ground that the people were not yet fitted for it;
since, if they were not fit to vote, they were equally
unfit to control a vote.—(Hear, hear.) If any persons
doubted the extent to which undue influence prevailed,
he would ask them to look at the different constituencies
and see whether there were any in which un-
merous electors did not abstain from voting through
fear of incurring the displeasure of ieflueetial indivi-
duals, or from the hope and expectation of some reward.
Now, the ballot, would, on the one hand, prevent inti-
midation, while on the other hand it would prevent the
possibility of corruption. He felt it difficult to believe
in the sincerity of those who opposed the ballot on the
ground that it would promote deception and encourage
a spirit cf disingenuousness, and that it would be found
ineffectual for the object it was intended to accomplish.
He believed the opposition offered to the ballot arose
from a love of power. Its opponents could not divest
themselves of a notion that they had a right to direct
and govern the votes of those who lived on their estates,
or with whom they dealt. They were averse to the
measure because they had no confidence in the people,
and they had no confidence in themselves.—(idear, hear)
They talked about the just influence ef property; but
what was the just influence of property? It was this—
that when a possessor of property was a humane and
considerate man, he would be respected and looked
up to by those around him, who would be anxious
to know his opinions, and who would probably in most
cases be guided by his views; but anything be-
yond that was tyranny.—(Hear, hear.) If it wore
considered desirable that property should have more in-
fluence, that House had better pass a law providing that
people should have votes in proportion to their property.
That would be preferable to the present system, which
pretended to give people votes, but which was nothing
better than a mockery and a delusion. It was said that
the ballot would be ineffectual to accomplish the object
it was intended to effect. He would admit that that
might perhaps happen in some small places ; but the
conclusion to which he came was that the franchise ought
not to be continued in such small places, but that larger
bodies ought to be invested with the right of electing
Members of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
say that he considered the ballot would be a panacea for
all evils, or that it might not be attended with some dis-
advantages as well as with great advantages. Ha was
not in avour of doing things in secret, and ho thought
it would be much better if ail electors had the manliness
and independence to exercise their franchise without de-
ferring to the influence of others; and if persons in the
higher classes were too highminded to stoop to intimida-
ticn and corruption. But when he knew the situation to
which families had been reduced because electors had given
their votes conscientiously, he considered that they ought
not to call upon men to make such sacrifices for the enjoy-
ment of the privilege or right which the constitution had
placed in their hands. It was said that the ballot would
be useless, because the electors would themselves divulge
in what way they had voted; but was it likely, when it
was important to a man that his votes should not be
known, that ho would be so great a fool as to proclaim
for whom his vote had been given? He (Lord D. Stuart)
thought, however, that it was likely, after a time, that
the habit of concealing votes would be laid aside. He
believed that if they had the ballot, the rich and power-
ful would by degrees abandon their attempts to tyrannize
and to corrupt, that things would then be placed upon a
better footing, and that the people would not be anxious
to conceal their votes. Ia the recent discussions on the
Irish franchise, they had heard something from Hon.
Gentlemen opposite of the leaven of democracy, and of
that House proceeding in a downward course. He was
not afraid of the leaven cf democracy; he wanted the
people to have the constitutional right of electing their
own representatives, and he considered that, when that
House was really and
,truly elected by the people, and
was more in harmony with their wishes and desires, so
far from being lowered it would be greatly elevated.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the ballot would tend
to the general welfare and benefit of the nation, and the
motion before the House had therefore his hearty CoLl•
curt-once.
The question having been put,
Sir G. GREY said, ho would not occupy the atten-
tion cf the House for more than a few minutes, hut, as
the mover of the resolution had devoted a considerable
portion of his speech to a discussion of his (Sir G. Grey's)
conduct upon this question, he would in a very few sen-
tences - gratify the lion. Gentleman's curiosity, by in-
forming him what were the opinions he entertained, and
what course he intended to take on the motion before
the House. Ho differed from that Hon. Gentleman in his
estimate of the importance ef the ballot. lie (Sir G.
Grey) never had stated that he considered the question
one of vast importance ; and when he had supported a
motion for the ballot, he had said that he had no great
confidence in the success of the plan. lie had supported
it, however, in deference to the opinions of a large body of
constituents, to whom he owed much, and who had given
him most disinterested support. That constituency, by
petitions addressed to that Houie, had certainly persuaded
him of their desire to obtain the ballot as a protection
for some of their number, with regard to whom he stated
at the time that he thought undue influence had been
exercised, and for whom he endeavoured to procure the
protection they required. He agreed very much in the
• opinion which had been expressed a few nights ago by
the Hon. Member for Middlesex, that the advantages
and evils of the ballot were both greatly exaggerated.
The more he had heard the question argued, and the
mere consideration he had given to it, the more satisfied
he was that so far from preventing bribery, the ballot,
if adopted, would in some constituencies greatly facili-
t tte the commission of wholesale bribery, and in most
constituencies would render it difficult to bring home
acts of bribery to particular parties. At the same time
he thought there were cases where the power of
giving secret votes might enable honest voters to
exereise the •franchige • according to their own
judgmetit and coninienTee; greet'from external con-
trel.2-(Her," ,however, that
in the vast majority of cassia,- tbieia, ballot, if
adopted, would he actually inoperative. He did not
think it would be a panacea for intimidation or bribery.
He considered that publicity was of the very essence of
our elective franchise.—(Bear, hear.) He would say
nothing about the ballot being English or un-English,
but he would say that under its operation the record of
the vote would not be, in 90 cases out of 100, the first
indication of the intention and opinions of the voter.—
(Hear, hear.) Where the political opinions of candi-
dates were marked and distinct, slid where the great
majority of the electors were divided into markel and
distinct classes, the relative strength of parties was well
known, and the candidates knew upon what voters they
could rely. He believed, therefore, that if secret voting
were adopted, publicity would still remain as the very
essence of our electoral system. The question then was
_whether it was necessary or expedient to adopt the
helot for the protection of a minority of voters? Ile
had stated that, on the occasion which had been re-
ferred to, he had, in deference to the expressed wishes
of his constituents, but with hesitation and reluctance,
having no confidence in the efficacy of the remedy,
given his support to the remedy they had suggested.
The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Berkeley) had said that he
(Sir G. Grey) statA last yeer that the political virtue
and purity of the elective classes had so far in-
creased that he (Sir G. Grey) thought the (allot no
longer necessary. The Honourable Gentleman had in-
v.. nted that speech fur him.—(A laugh.) Ile would ask
the lion. Gentleman where he could find it, for he (Sir
G. Grey) had used no such expressions. What he had
said was, that of late years the growing influence of

public opinion 1121 produced a much more powerful
check than formerly existed against the aso of those
undue ineana which had been faquently exerciaed vial a
view to induce electors to vet) contrary to their opinions.
He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would see that that was
a totally different thing from extolling political virtue
and purity. He (Sir G. Grey) had spoken 'Of Public
opinion ac expressed throu;;11 the press, in the country,
and in that House, and of the exposure which fbilovied
attempts tointimidate or corrupt electors; and he be-
lioyed that this afforded a better security tba.i. any law
that could be alopiel by ttio LPgisJature. He believed
that if they were to alopt the ballot they would not
protect that class of electors who,. with known poli-
tical opinions, wished to abstain from voting. Their
opinions being known, they might still be prevent:id
from voting by undue influence.. With regard to the
various lights in which the franchise was regarded,
he diffeiesl from thoso who treated it as a mere

privilege, for he considered the franchise, not as a
mere privilege, but as a trust conferred for the bene-
fit of the community, and which should therefore be
exercised in the face of the counnunity. TiieJe consi-
derations induced him, in the exercise of his 'o ion judg•

went, which be felt bound to follow, under the pieseat

circuicstances of the country, when there was no ap-

p, armlet) of the bullet being required, when there was
no expression:of public opinion:on the subjectiandwhen he
believed the people:gencrally did not desire it—although
the Hun. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Berkeley) had by a
lucky- accident carried his inot;on by a very narrow ma-
jority last year—to decline to concur with the lion.
Gentleman in the "change he prop)sed—a el,a;ige which
he (Sir G.' Grey) believed would confer anyantages
upon a very small portion of the community, and which
advantages would, in his opinion, he counterbalanced by
the evils which would fAlow with respect to bribery
and corruption.—(llear, hear, and cries of " Divide.")
Mr. M. GIBSON said it appeared that upon these
questions of reform they were not to be allowed to have
lair debates, for Hon. Gentlemen opposite called fir a
division almost before the Right llon. Home Secretary
had declared the views of the Government.

Sir G. GREY—My own views.— (A cry of " Hear.")
Mr. M. GIBSON was glad to hear they were not the
views of theGovernrcent,and that this was an open

question.—(Bear, hear.) Upon several recent occasions
Hon. Gentleman opposite had urged tha importance of
ascertaining the independent views and opinions of the
tenant-farmers of England; and one Hon. Gentleman

had expre3sed his desire that the true opinions of that
class, free from all external influences, should be heard
in that House. He (Mr. Gibson) was prepared to give
the tenant-farmers on opportunity of so expressing their
opinions, and for that purpose he would give them the
protection of the ballot.—(" Oh! oh!" and laughter.)
The Right Hon. Home Secretary had stated that %hen
he voted fur the ballot he had done so in deference to

the opinions of the electors who sent him to that House;
and it was his (Mr. Gibson's) conviction, from the
knowledge he had of tenant-farmers, that if Honour-
able Gentlemen opposite voted in deference to the
opinions of those who sent them to Parliament,
the tenant occupiers, they would support the ballot.—
(Laughter, cries of " Oh! oh!" and cheers.) The Right
Honourable Baronet had said that the ballot would

be inoperative in the melt majority of cases. Where,
then, was the danger of trying the experiment, if that
system might be called an experiment which was in full
operation in many other countries ? He (Mr. Gibson)
would venture to say that in no other country where the
ballet had been adopted would they find the electoral
body willing to relinquish it.—(flear, hear.) The bal-
lot was required for that minority of cases—if minority
it were—where undue or improper influence was exer•
cised upon electors ; and to say that the ballot would
be inoperative in a great majority of cases was no valid
argument against it. They might apply that rule to
their police regulations, to their criminal law, and to
other institutions which, in a greet majority of cases,
were inoperative—(ile tr, hear)—but the question
was, did they come iuto operation in any minority
of cases where the protection of the law was re-
quired ? What public object did they gain by im-
posing publicity as the condition of a mai giving his
vote ? As they imposed upon every elector the obliga-
tion to publish his vo:e, they were bound to show
the public advantage of such a restraint. Were elec-
tors' he asked, to vote us they themselves wished, or
not ? Ile believed the House would say they ought to
vote according to their own wish and conscience. If,
then, by compulsory publicity, they compelled a man
to vote otherwise than be would have done with the
protection of the ballot, they violated the principle on
which they gave that man a vote; namely, that he
should use it, according to his own conscience and
opinions. If, on the other hand, publicity had no effect,
and the man voted just as he otherwise would have
done, then this obligatory restraint and publicity were of
no value. If the electoral body were known to be at

liberty to exercise their own free convictions in voting,
there would bo less of claptrap agitation; a candidate
would more maturely consider his speeches when ho
knew that they would be weighed by unbiassed under-
standing--, whilst at the same time a higher tone of
thought would be engendered in the constituency. At
present, indeed, many a man would rather not bear
avireg;ujomnesnmtsiguhptonoba pligeubiliiicmqtuoesvtoioten,afgeaarng that
inist
his
si hnteirsescto.—n-
(A laugh.) That was the case in a great many instances
in many small boroughs where considerable influence
was exercised.—(Hear, hear.) With the ballot, timid
men would no longer be deterred from voting through
fear of mobbing, or of having to pass through two lines
of men using expressions perhaps not very agreeable to
hear. The argument for °Fen voting—its being un-
Erglish,that it should be secret—might be used in favour
of requiring a man, when he made his will, to publish it
at the church door.—(Oh!) If the genuine voice of the
constituency were desired, they should have the protec-
tion of secrecy in recording their votes.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. WILLIAMS had felt it his duty, on behalf
of those who desired to use the franchise without per-
mission from or under the compulsion of their customers
to corroborate last year the Honourable Member's (Mr.
H. Berkeley's) statements of the disgraceful state of
thraldom in which the inhabitants of this metropolis
were plunged, and was enabled to point out also the de-
moralisation of constituencies in Wales—his own native
country. The Honourable Member had well remarked,
that although for the laet few years the screws and en-
gines of compulsion had not been resorted to, unless in
particular intances, with that fierce determination which
marked their use in times of great political excitement,
yet it was a miserable argument to pretend that there-
fore intimidation had gone out of fashion. Ie t the aris-
tocracy now, if they could, or at any time, stir up an
election, and we should have the same scenes enacted
which he ventured to describe last session. Carriages,
with their titled occupants, would roll from door to dour,
as they did in 1841, the threats and cajolery of ladies—
(Loud laughter)—being carried to a much greater ex-
tent with tradesmen than their male relatives dared to
go.—(Renewed laughter, and cries of "Hear, hear.")
As a plain man—(A. laugh)—but, he trusted, an
honest one —( Hear, hear)—he was utterly unable to
comprehend how Hon. Members could defend the pre-
sent system. Why not be honest, and say that it was
folly to entrust the present class of voters with the fran-
chise, but that a man should vote so man) times accord.
ing to his property? Tu quelify one set of men to elect
representatives, and then permit that privilege to be
usurped by another, was contrary to reason and common
55050.--(lleac, hear.) It was in vain to deny this state
of things. In the country the landlord alone was always
canvassed; and when estseee cnang,ed hands, the voters
adopted the politics of the new masters. How much
better for an auctioneer putting up an estate to describe
it as well timbered and watered, abounding in natural
productions, pheasants, hares, rabbits, pike, troat, and
electors,—market arid polling-place at a convenient dis-
tance?—(feaughter.) Of all practices most abhorrent
to an Englishman was this system of intimidation, openly
repudiated, but quietly winked at and encouraged.—
(Hear.) The }ystem had been maintained too long by
thoroughgoing Tories a-id half-going Whigg, until it had
become a • scandal and disgrace to a civiltzgi nation.—
(Hear, hear.) Parliament sould extend the stiff, age to
its permitted limits, and ellow men to vote who now re-
fused, and give the middle aed lower-classes the power
cf expressing their real opinions. lie should vote for
the ballot.
Mr. HEALD entirely dissented from the proposition,
that this motion ought to be agreed to on the ground
that the electors of this country iequired the protection
of the ballot. He did not admit that it would be a pro-
tection to them—(Hear, hear)—and he begged to et.ta
that the electoral body did nut ask for, desire, or wish
for such protection.—(Hear, hear.) They prided them-
selves on being known as supporting certain principles
and favourite candidates.—(Hear.) As for the minority
to whom the Home Secretary had referred, who wore
they? He represenled a popular borough, and he was
prepared to state that not merely four-fiftls of the con-
stituency of that borough, but nine-tenths, did not want
the ballot—(Haase)—they felt it would be a reflection
upon their integrity a-id their preparedness ti avow what
were. their views on great public questions.—(Hear,
hear.) And he honoured that principle.—(Cheers.)
t examined openly on the hustings, and,
would be the last to part with any essential
lecture Of our Eaglish character.—(Hoar, hear.)
Ito ass nit n)
wereash amof
any vote
he ever gave;
candidates
as one who was canvasses as to his views, he claimed a
right to be dealt with openly and fairly.—(gear, hear.)
There was a small minority indeed in all our conetitu-
encies that was to he regarded under a very different
view—a nondescript patty—(A laugb)—at every elec-
tion hanging is the balance--(Laughter)—and waiting
almost till the poll was about t) close before they would
determine for whop, if the election was nicely poised,
they would vote.—(Hear, hear.) Was the ceuntry to
part with a long-established and greatly honoured sys-
tem of taking the sense of the constituency of the
empire merely to meet the case of this small minority?
—(Hear, beer.) The sooner the country was relieved
from any kind of premium or advantage, or protection
given to that small proport'on of the constituency, the
purer and the freer, and tae more satisfactory, would be
the record of the votes of the electoral boly.—(Hear.)
Mr. BRIGHT felt that it would be ext-etnely satis-
factory it the very favourable character which the Hon.
Gentleman had given of his constituency could
be believed to bo true of the constituencies generally.
Stockport was a borough not eperkable fir its purity
—(A laugh)—for the little cast of elections—(Hear)—
or the absence of tumult at them.—(Hear.) He (alr.
Bright) knew something of Stackport.—(A laugh.) It
was a town almost entirely supported by the cotton
trade; many of the firms there were wealthy and pow-
erful, employing frem 500 to 2.000 persons, and having
influence over all the tradesmen in the town who supplied
the articles necessar, in the wear and tear of those es-
tablishments. The large millowner, in a moderate axe
town, was very much in the position of a large pro-
prietor of lend, having labourers aid tenant; dependent
on him. He himself was in the position he was de-
scribing—(A laugb)—neeeely, employing a large num-
ber of persons, and seeiu7 yens anti), at his countaig-
house the people employed in the various subsidiary
manufactures of the neighbourhood coming to receive
their orders or payment of their accounts. The influence

against which the ballot was intendtd to guard existed
to a cry largo extent; and it depended upon, the roc-
rality :sud the consciontiobsness of thcme wao• had that
influence, whether it should be used against the rigl,ts

the electors subjected to i,.—(Elear.) With6ut
making any charge in reference t) Stockport more tLnn
Ruchdale or the metropolis, he would ask the House
whether, when party spirit ran high, (as it often did in
smell Owns even were there seemed very little to

shout), it was not known that, this influence was con-
stantly exercised by candidates and by employers con-
nected with all pol:tical parties?—(Hear, hear.) lle
solemnly believed that every man in the House %yes as
conscious as himself that in the Brea' majority of elec-
tions, whether for counties or boroughs, particularly it'
the constituency was limited and the cautest ran keen,
this influence was constantly exercised adversely to the
independent and conscientious voting of a great number
of the electors—(Hear, hear)—and the borough of
Stockport was no exception.—(llear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman said that nine-tenths of his constituency did
not want the ballot; nine-tenths of them did not et tit for
him—(Oh, oh !)—but he would probably be asked to
present a petition in favour of the ballot, signed by a
majority of thwe electors.—(Hrar.) In the neighbour-
hood in which he (Mr. Bright) lived—in Lancashire—
where probably the electoral classes where as independent
as in tiny portion of the kingdom, a great majority of
them, he believed, were in favour of the ballot; and the
principal reason why the Members of that House did not
give them the ballot was the knowledge that with it the
returns in many constituencies would be very difierent
from what they now were.—([fear, he tr.) He was
arnez,d at some gentlemen opposite, great sticklers for
morality, quoting all parts of Scripture in favour of all
kinds of questionable propositions—(Laughter)—Gen-
tlemen who assumed to be the defenders of the Church
and of that Christianity which the Church was supposed
to embody—(Oh, oh!)—he was astonished that, seeing
the immorality—(ohl)—seeing the cruelty and oppres-
sion exercised on the part of powerful and wealthy men
towards the more dependent classes of the electors,
these Gentlemen should oppose a proposition like Oily,
against which the most that could be said was, that it
would not do all the good its advocates expected.
The time was not very far distant when the whole
of this representative system, the fcanchise and mode of
elect:on, would be subjected to a more thorough investi-
gation and reform.—(Oh, oh! and Hear.) The thing
was so monstrous upon the face of it that we were ex-
posed to the ridicule of every foreigner who examined
it.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh 1") And it would
b 3 wise for gentlemen, instead of raising unmeaning
laughs—(Oh, oh!)—to adduce arguments, if they had
any—(Oh!)—in favour of a system which was ridiculous
in theory, and which in practice was fiund to create
great evils and to cause great discontent throughout the
country.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MASTERMAN (who was very imperfectly
heard) was understood to express his opinion that it was
not desirable that votes should be concealed. He should
rather know at all times who were his friends and who
were his enemies than remain in ignorance as to the
character and feelings of his constituents.
Mr. MUNTZ observed that the Hon. Member oppo-
site had stated the views upon this question of the
electors of the borough which he represented, and had
told the House that not above one-tenth of them was
favourable to the ballot. Now, he should say that as
far as his experience went in one borough at least, it
showed that a very large proportion of its constituency
desired the ballot, and if he were asked to what class
they belonged, he should say to a highly respectable
class, who refused to exercise the franchise, cling that
they could scarcely venture to do so with justice to their
families. He remembered, some years ago, at an elec-
tion for that borough which he now had the honour
to repro sent, the parties cn both sides came to him
and r.sked if he had any objection that they should
see his workmen, but they added that they supposed
it would be of no use, for, of course, the men were
already pledged to vote as he might dictate. To
this his reply was, that they could canvass his men
if they pleased—that he would as soon think cf
meddling with a man's pocket as with his vote.—(hear,
hear.) But, though he did not interfere with his men,
the application to him in his own borough showed how
the system of open voting worked; and it was the same
in all manufacturing towns. The majority of the
meters were as tyrannical towards the working zren as
the ladies were towards the shopkeepers. He asked,
would they give to men the privilege of sotittg and not
protect them in the exercise of that privilege? Let
them look at the effect of vote by ballot in Belgium. It
was established there in 1830, and he had every reason
to believe that it worked very well to the satisfaction of
all men in that country. The ballot was not now a part
of our system in this country, but it would soon become
so; it would not fail to be so in soma time. It was
ridiculous to talk of doing everything openly; men did
net leave their account-books and papers open to all the
world.

Colonel SIB HIORP had no objpetion to make to
what had fallen from the lion. Member for Manchester,
but, in reference to the remarks of the lion. Member
for Birmingham, he must be allowed to observe that he
by no means concurred with that Hon. Gentleman in
wishing that England should imitate foreign nations.
He entertained a decided objection to the introduction of
foreign manners and customs; even the Exposition d' In-
dustrze—(A laugh)—did not appear to him so admirable
a project as some thought it. He had listened with in-
finite pleasuta to the observatious that night made by
his excellent friend the Member for London, for that
Hon. Gentleman relied on his own integrity and his own
consistency, and was never afraid of open voting. Dur-
ing more than twenty years he (Colonel Sibthorp) had
the honour of a seat in that House,—how long he might
continue to retain that seat he did not know, but of this

he felt assured, that his manner of voting in that House

would undergo no change. He should despise the voter
who supported him in a covert, tricky, un-English man-
ner, and he could say in the face of a Briti4h House of
Commons that he had never bribed any voter, nor ever
influenced a tenant. He did not know what the Noble
Lord at the head of the Government might say to vote
by ballot, but for his part he should never cease to op-
pose it.—(bear.)
Mr. HUME would judge the Hon. Member who spoke
last from his own words; he talked of the practice being
un-English. L?t him look at the clubs of London.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh!') The ballot no doubt might work
an unpleasant and extraordinary change in the House of
COmmons; but he remembered the time when it was de-
fended by those who opposed it now. As to the state-
ments by the Hon. Member for Stockport, ho could not
help saying that that Hon. Gentleman was altogether
mistaken—he had libelled his own constitlents, for
withiu the last three weeks a public meeting had been
held there at which thousands of the inhabitants declared
in favour of the ballot. if the ballot were established there
would be no bribery, for who would " buy a pig in a
poke?" He thought that the Hon. Member for London
was also mistaken.

Mr. MASTERMAN said be had never stand

his constituents were against the ballot; what he said
waft, that they had never intimated to him that they
wanted it.

Mr. HUME resumed. There had been twenty-five
twetiurgs in London recently which had declared in
favour of the ballot. 'rho Right Hon. Beronet (Sir G.
Grey) said there was no demand for the ballot. The
reason was that the people knew too well the-constitution
of the House—(lleer, hear)—the fact being that at
almost every popular meeting they declined to petition
the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) He had only
this to say, that they who used the ballot to protect
themselves acted unjustly, un-English, and unmanly in
refusing it to others.—((;beers.)
Mr. HE ALI) rose to explain. He said ho was certain
that neither the Hon. Member for Montrose nor the Hon.
Member for Manchester wished to misrepresent him.
What he said was that he believed nine-tenths of the
constituency of the empire, including his own, did not
require the ballot as a means of protection in recording
their votes.—(Loud cries of " On, oh!") His argument
was that such a proportion prided themselves in haring
it known what were their distinctive principles, and who
was their favourite candidate.—(" Oh, oh !")
Mr. BERKELEY replied—He said he would detain the
House only a very few minut-s, for he did not find that
he had much to answer.—(Cheers.) He had first to
accept the explaeation of the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G.
Grey), and to assure him that he had never meant to
attribute to him the use of at y words expressive of trans-
cendent virtues and purity in relation to the upperclasses ;
he only ascribed the sentiment to the Right Hon.
13aronet, wee had borne him out in this interpretation.
With respect to the ballot it would bo a cure for
bribery in large constituencies, but not in small ones.
He had heard nothing to-night that had at all shaken
his opinion respecting the ballot, which he did not,
however, pretend was a panacea for the evils which he
desired to remedy. He was convinced that these small
conAituencies must, sooner or later, be done away with.
It had been said, that if the ballot became a law, a man
would be compelled to secrecy; but this was a mistake.
A man might go and proclaim his vote; he might march
up to the polling booth with banners and music if he
chose; but it' he saw that he would be ruined by taking
a c ertain course, the ballot afforded him proper protec-
tion.—(Hear, bear.) He trusted that he should find
himself supported on the present occasion by all . those
Members who had heretofore voted in favour of the
bellot.—(Cheers.)
The (louse then divid:d, when there appeare2dl --
1
For the motion ...
121
Against it ... ..• •••
Majority .•. •,
The announcement of the numbers Was received with
cheering by the friends of the ballot.
Lord MELGUND moved for leave to bring in a Bill
to reform and extend the school establishments of Scot-
land. The Noble 'Lord, who was very indistinctly
heard, was understood to say that many defects existed
in the school establishments of Scotland, for which a re-
medy was demanded, and this be intended in some
degree to supply by the measure which he wished to in-
troduce. He proposed to establish some educational
test for teachers, and to raise as high as posiible the
profession and status of that class of the community. He
would give large parishes the power of dividing them-
selves into districts for educational purposes, and ho
would enable adjoining localities to unit: toectlier and
form themselves into unions for the satne object. If
leave were given to bring in the Bill, he would explain
more fully on a future occasion the provisions of the
measure ; but he felt that at that late hour he would not
be justitiA in detaining the Reuse.
Sir G. CLERK regretted that the lateness of the
hour had Prevented the Noble Earl from stating more at
length the nature of the Bill. He would not oppose the
introduction of the measure, but he hoped that ample time
would be given to consider it in all its bearings before the
House was called upon to discuss either the principle
or the details.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. WOOD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to pro-
ven: the holding of vestry or other meetings in churches,
and for regulating the uppointment of vestry-elerk9.
The Bill was not intended to be ono of a compuisery
nature, but to enable parishes of more than 1,000 inha-

• bitant: to make appli:alion to the Poor-law Commis-
sieneas fir power to extend its provi-ions to such
parishes. It was prop-ised to authorise ae payment of
veitry-clerks out of the rates of the parish.
Leave was given t-) being in the
Mr. ADAIR cihttCned leave to bring in a Bill to
provide for the more equittab!e distribution of the
charge for the relief of the poor in ceitaiu cities and
ttiNVEIF.
Oa the motion of Mr. HUME, a return was ordered
of the name of each of her Majesty's ships of war in
commission and in ordinary on the Ist of January, 1850,
and by whom built. ez.c.; of the number of ships iu •
commission and in ()Hillary in cach year, since 1828; and
an account cf the sums expended on each ship in build•
ing and repairing, Sic., since 1828.
Mr. BAINES move.l for leave to bring in a Bill to
make better provision fir the contributions of unions and
parishes in school districts to the common fund of the
respective districts. The object of the Bill was to:e-
move some doubts that had arisen as to the meaning of
an Act passed in 1844 on this subject, and which con-
tained a number of very valuable provisions. It related
LJ the contributions made to district schools. The ave-
rages were at present taken at different periods in the
various parishes comprising each union, and one ot,j,ct
of the present Bill was to take the a-amages simulta-
neously. Again, there was no provision in the present
law to add ono parish to a school district composed of a
certain ❑umber of unions. The Bill would provide for
this also, and, as an instance, he might mention that the
parish of St Luke, Chelsea, would be added to the North
Surrey Union school district.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. TRELAWNY gave notice that he would ask the
Noble Lord at tho head of the Government whether any
steps bad been taken in pursuance of a sort of under-
tatting given by him (Lord J. Russell) in 1817, that cer-
tain persons connectel with the union schools should
have some of the small offices of the State.
CHARITABLE TRUSTS BILL.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL moved the secoed
rc ading of this Bill.

Mr;TURNER opposed it, on the ground of the late-
ness of the hour and the thinness of the House.
The Bill was poitpoued de die in diem, to give the
Solicit )r-General the first available opportunity to
move it.

The House went into Committee on the
REGISTRAR OF METROPOLITAN PUBLIC
CARRIAGES BILL.
In reply to Mr. BANKES,
Mr. C. LEWIS stated that the proposed compensa-
tion of the present officers would effect a saving to the
public.
The Bill was passed through Committee.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

From the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Connaosss.)

THURSDAY, if AIiCH 7.
KILI:USII UNION.

Motion made, and Question put, " That an humble Ad-
dress be presented to her Majesty, praying that she will be
graciously pleased to appoint a Special Commission to in-
quire into the social state of the Union of Kilrush, and into
the means that may be adopted for its amelioration." The
House divided:—

MINORITY-AYES, 63.
Adair, Hugh E. Grace, 0. D. Pache, C. W.
Armstrong, Sir A. Greene, John Perfect, Robert
Arundel, Earl of Harris, Richard Pilkington, Jamul
Bennet, P. Heald, James Plumptre, J. P.
Blair, Stephen Henry, Alexander Prime, Richard
Blake, Martin J. Hood, Sir A. Rawden, Colonel
Bright, John Horsman, Edward Reynolds, John
Brisco, M. Hume, Joseph Salwey, Colonel
Brotherton, J. Keating, Robert Stanford, J. F.
Buck, L. W. - Kershaw, James Stuart, Lord H.
Chichester, Lord J. Lewisham, Viscount Sullivan, Michael
Collins, William Meagher, Thomas Talbot, J. H.
Devereux, John T. Mahon, O'Gorman Tenison, E. K.
Duncan, (2eorgo Monsell, William Thicknesse, Ralph
Ellis, John Moody, C. A. Thompson, Colonel
Evans, Sir Do Lacy Moore, George H. Wakley, T.
Evans, William Mowatt, Francis Walinsley, Sir J.
E wart, William Muntz, G. E. Wawu, J. T.
Fagan, William Naas, Lord Williams, John
Fox, W. J. Norreys, Sir D. TELLEIs.
Gaskell, J. M. O'Connell, 3laurico Scrope, G. P.
Gore, W. 0. OTlalierty, Anthony Herbert, 11. A.

MAJORITY-NOES, 76.
Abdy. Sir T. N. Fitzroy, Henry Pelham, D. A
Adair, R. Shafto Foley, J. H. Pigott, Francl.l
Aglionby, H. A. Forster, M. Trice, Sir R
AlcocX, Thomas Fox, R. M. Rice, E. It.
Armstrong, R. B. Freestun, Colonel Richards, Richard

Baines, M. T. French, F. Hominy, Colonel
Barnard, E. G. Glyn, G. C. Roadlly, Sir Jowl
Berkeley, Admiral Graham, Sir James Russell, Lord J.
Berkeley, Henry F. Grey, Sir G. Rutherturd, A.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Hatcnell, John Shell, R. L.
Blackall, S. W. Ilayter, W. G. Somerville, Sir W.
Bouverie, E. P. Hildyard, R. C. Strickland, Sir G.
Brockman, E. D. Ilobhouse, Sir John Stuart,. Lord J.
Campbell, W. F. Howard, Lord E. Tancred, H. W.
Clay, James Jones, Captain Thornely, Thomas
Clive, Henry B. King, P. J. Trelawny, J. S.
Cobbold, J. C. Labouchere, Henry Tumell, IL
Cowper, W. F. Langston, J. H. Turner, George
Dick, Quintin Lewis, George C: Verney, Sir H.
Duncan, Viscount Martin,"John Villiers, Charles
Dundas, Admiral Matheson' Colonel Willcox, Brodie
Dundee, Sir David Melgued, Viscount Wilson, Matthew
Ebrington, Viscount Milner, W. M.
Elliot, John Morris, David

Evans, John Paget, Lord C.
Fergus, John Parker, John
Ferguson, Sir R. Peel, Frederick

TELLERS.
Bellew, R. M.
Grey, R. W.

BALLOT.

Motion made, and Question put, " That leave be given to
bring in a Bill to protect the Parliamentary Electors of
Great Britain and Ireland from undue influence, by the use
of the Ballot." The House divided:—
MINORITY—AYES, 12 I.
Adair, Hugh R. Grenfell, Charles W. Rawdon, Colonel
Adair, It. A. Hall, Sir B. Reynolds, John
Aglionby, 11. A. Hallyburton, Lord Ricardo, Osman
Alcock, Thomas Hardcastle' J. A. Rice, E. R.
Anderson, Arthur Harris,, Richard Romilly, Colonel
Armstrong, R. B. ll:tstie, Alexander Romilly, Slr John
Bagshaw, John lleadlam, Thomas ' SAIWCy, Colonel
Barnard, E. G. Henry, Alexander Scholelleld, W.
Berkeley, C. L. Ileywood, James Scropc, O. P.
Bernal, Ralph Mey worth, L. Scully, Francis
Blake, M. J. llill, Lord M. Shaft.), It. 1).

Blowitt, It. J. llobhouse, P. B. Smith, J. A.
Bouverie, E. P. Hum!, J. Smith, John B.
Boyle, Colonel llumphery, Ald. Spearman 11. J.

Bright, John Kershaw, James Siansfleid, W. R.
Brocklehuret, John King, P. J. Strickland, Sir G.
Brotherton, Joseph Langston, J. H. Stuart, Lcrd J.
Clay, James Locke, Joseph Sullivan, Michael
Clay, Sir W. M'Cullagh , W. T. Talbot, J. H.
Cobden, Richard Meagher, Thomas Tancred, 11. W.
Collins, W. Mahon, O'Gorman Tenuent, R. J.
Currie, Raikes Mangles, R. 1). Thicknesse, R. A.
Dawson, T. V. Marshall, William Thompson, Colonel
Devereux, J. T. Martin, J. Thompson, George
D'Eyacourt, C. T. Milner, W. M. Thornely, T.
Duke, Sir J. Mitchell, T. A. Towneley, John
Duncan, Lord Moffatt, George Trelawny, J. S.
Duncan, George Morris, David Tutliell, Henry
Dundas, Admiral Mowatt, Francis Villiers, Charles
Ellis, John Mintz, G. F. . Wakley, Thomas
Enfield, Lord Sorreys, Sir D. Walmsley, Sir J.
Evens, Sir De Lacy Nugent, Lord Wawn, J. T.
Evans, J. O'Connell, Maurice Willcox, Brodie
Evans, William O'Fialierty, Anthony Williams, John
Ewart, William Osborne, Ralph Wilson, Matthew
Fagan, William Paget, Lord A. . Wood, W. P.
Fox, W.f.J. Paget, Lord C. Wyvlll, Marmaduke
Freestun, Colonel Paget, Lor4George
Gibson, T. M. Peehell, Sir G. TELLEXO.
Gip), G. C. Perfect, R. B2rkeley, H. I'.
Greene, John Pigott, Francis Stuart, Lord Dudley
Grenfell, C. Pascoe Pilkington, James

MAJORITY-NOES, 176.
Acland, Sir T. Ferguson, Sir K. Malgrave, Earl
Adderley, C. B Filmer, Sir E. Mailings, J. R.
Archilall, Captain Fitzpatrick. JW. Mundy, William
Arkwright, 9. Fitzr•y, Henry Naas, Lord
Armstrong, Sir A. Foley, J. 11. Newdegate, C. N.
Ashley, Lord Forbes, William Norreys, Lord
Baines, M. T. Forester, G. C. Oswald, A.
Bankes, G. Fuller, A. E. Packe, C. W.
Baring, 11. B. Gaskell J.M.; Palmer, Robert
Baring, Thomas , Gladstone, W. E. Palmer, iloundell
Barrington, Lord Gore, W. 0. Palmerston, Vie.
Bateson, Thomas Gorlburn, Henry Patten, W.
Bennet, Philip Graham, Sir J. Feel, Sir Robert
Berestord, William Grey, Sir G. Peel, Frederick
Blacken, S. W. Grey, Ralph W. Pelham, D. A.
Blair, Stephen Grogan, Edward Plowden, W. 11.
Blandforti, Marquis Guernsey, Lord Plumptre, J. P.
Bowles, Admiral Halsey, T. P. Portal, Melville
Bramston, T. W. Hamilton, (1. A. Price, Sir Robert
Brisco, Si. Hamilton, J. H. Prime, Richard
Broadley, IL Harcourt, G. Reid. Colonel
Brockman, E. D. Ilatchell, John Repton, C. W. J.
Brooke, Lord Heald, James Richards. Richard
Buck, L. W. Ileatheote,lG. J. Rumbold, C. E.
Bailer, Sir Y. Henley, J. W. Russell, Lord John
Bunbury, E. H. Herbert, Sidney Russell, F. C.
Burrell, Sir C. Hervey, Lord A. Scott, Francis
Burroughes, H. N. Hildyard, R. C. Seymour, Lord
Buxton, Sir E. I liidyard, T. 11. Shelburne, Earl of
Cabbell, B. B. Hoiiliouse, Sir J. Sibthorp, Colonel
Campbell, W. F. Hodgson, W. N. Smollett, A.
rardwell. Edward Hogg, Sir J. W. Sonieriet, Captain
Carew, W. P. hood, Fir A. Sotheron, T. 11. s.
Castlereagh, Vis. Hope, A. Spooner, Richard
Cayley, Edward S. llornby John Stall.ird, Augustus
Childers, J. W. Ilotham, Lord Stanford, J. F.
Christy, Samuel Howard, Sir R. Stanley, Edward
Clerk Sir George Hughes, W. B. Stanley,:',E. H.
Clive, R. H., Inglis, Sir R. Stanton, W. S.
Clive, H. B. Jermyn, Earl Stull, 11. 0.
Cohbold, J. C. Jocelyn, Viscount Taylor, T. E.
Cocks, T. ti. Johnstone, Sir J. Thompson, Alderman
Cole, lion. 11. A. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. Trevor, G.
Colebrooke, Sir T. Jones, Captain Turner, George
Coles, it. It. Knox, Colonel Tyrell, Sir J.
Compton, 11. C. Labouchere,:llenry Vane, Lord IL
Cowper, W. F Leonard, T. 11. Verney, Sir H.
Cabitt, William Lewis, G. C. Vescy, lion. 'l'.
Denison, J. E. Lindsay, Colonel Waddington, David
Dick, Quintin Littleton, E..R. Waddington, 11. S.
Dodd, George Lockhart, W. Walpole, S. II
Drummond, Home Mackenzie, W. F. Walsh, Sir J. B.
Duckworth, Sir J. Martin,lC. W. Watkins, Colonel
Duff, George S. Matheson, Colonel Wrgg-Prosser, F.
Duncombe, 0. Maxwell, Hon. J. P. Wellesley, Lord C.
Dundas, G. blelgund, Viscount Wortley,lS.
Dunne, F. P. bleux, Sir 11.
Du Pre, C. G. Miles, P. W. S.
Edwards, IL Moody, C. A.
Fergus, Jehn Morgan, 0

TELLEBS.
Howard, Lord E.
Masterman, J.

RAILWAY SHARE MARKETS.
BRISTOL, INlAncll
,7.
STOCK EXCHANGE. —The market to-day has been more
animated. The transactions were as follow :—Bristol and
Exeter, 31 dis.—Great Western, Quarters, I,IN ex div.—
Ditto, New 171. Shares, 7% die. ex div.—Midland Stock,
401 ex div.

LIVERPOOL, ALtuctt 7.
Srocic ExciuNGE.—The market was better to-day, and
a god business has been done, the market closing firmly
at the quotations. The transactions were as follow:
Lancashire and Yorkshire, Cousol.• Fifths, Bt/ :dis.
London and North-Western, loa%—llitto, New Quarters, par
—Ditto, Fifths, p.—Ditto, Quarters (C), f;,4 c. p.—Mid-
land, 41—Ditto, Halves, 24!. I Is. 3d.—L'ast Lincolnshire,
71. 3s. 93.—Great Western, 59 —North Union (A), guaran-
teed jointly by London nnd North-Western and Lancashire
and Yorkshire, 235—Ditto (B), 164 ii—York, Newcastle,
and Berwick (Original N. and B.) Extension Nos. 1 and 2,
11 dis.—Y ork and North Midland, WA—Dutch Rhenish,
6 dis.--Lancaster and Preston, p.
MANCHESTER, Maßcit 7.

STOCK EXCHANGIL—Our share market . was very firm
to-day, but the amount of business done was limited. The
transactions were as follow: Lancashire and Yorkshire,
44—Ditto Fifths, dis.—London and North• Western, 106
ex d.--Ditto, Manchester and Birmingham (C), Quarters,
9 16 p. Manchester, Sheffield, and L'ncolnshire, Prefer-
ence, 7 c.—Whitehaven and Furness, 1414 dis.
13IR11LNGHAM, M.kacir 7.

STocx ExcaaNGld.--Business on our Stock Exchange
to-day was very dull. The only transaction was—North
Staffordshire,lo-fidis.
YORK, MARCH 6.

STOCK EXCHANGE.—The transactions to-clay were as

follow : York, Yericastle, and Berwick, 1414 Easti6:4
Ccun' i3s, 71. 34.:.,d.—Fait Lancashire, 1,4 —No th- Ist erg,
I/. 13s. Sd. —York and North Midland, Preference, G, '

•
GLAM)W, MARCH G.
S:OCIC ENCTIANGIC.—The transactions to-day re :,as
follow : Edinburgh and Glasgovr, 541/2-IMonklancrs,"6k.
Scottish Grand Juncti,m, 2s. 91.

%.•
NAVAL INTELLIGENCE.
GIBRALTAR, FEB. 2G.—The Peninsular and 014:7.,e.
ental Company's steatner Ripon, with the outward •
East India and China mails, in five days and three-
quarters from Southampton, arrived here this morr.-
ing, and proceeded at 5 P.m. for Milts and Alexandria,
all well.

The Janus and the French steam-frigate Lavoisier
remain at anchor in the bay.
The British steamer Pirate, 11 days from Liver-
pool, and the screw steamer Bosphorus nine days
from Liverpool, arrived here on the 231, and sailed
fur Constantinople.

The Peninsular Company's steamer Madrid, six
days from S mthampton, arrived on the 22d, and
proceeded fur Genoa, Leghorn, and Civita Vecchia.
She had very heavy weather on the passage out.
The steamer Sharpshooter, seven days from Malta,
touched here on the 22d, en route to England.
Tile steamer Osmanli, from Genoa and Leghorn,
arrived here on the 18th ; and the Levantine, 10 days
from Liverpool, fur the same ports, arrived on the
same day, and proceeded. The British steamer Free
Trade sailed on the 18th for Genoa.
The Danish sloop Bonne Esperance, from Messina,
put in here on the 18th in a damaged state.
Wind, S.E., fresh gale, and clear weather.
CADIZ, FEB. 27.—A large French steam-frigate
(name unknown), arrived here this morning. The
French screw-frigate, Pomone, 36, remains here.
LISBON, MAuca I.—There are no British vessels-
of-war in the Tagus. The Royal Yacht schooner
Fair Rosamond, from Cadiz, and the schooner Talbot
of Plymouth, are off Belem Castle.
Vice, MARCH 3.—The Peninsular steamer Jupi-
ter, with the outward mails of the 27th February,
arrived here this morning, and proceeded to the
southward.
PORTSILOUTM, THU RSDAY.—Rear•Admiral Prescott
is better to-day.
The Lily, 12, has been commissioned and is enter-
ing men. She will sail with the mail of the let
proximo for the coast of Africa, and proceed thence
ifor the East India station. . .

-------
The Dublin Royal Mail Company's steam-packet
Royal William arrived here this morning from Cork
with the depot of the 7th Royal Fusiliers, which
landed at the dock-yard this afternoon, and marched
to the Landport terminus of the South-Western
and South Coast Railway, whence they left per train
for Winchester barracks.
The fourth company of the Ssppers and
Miners, under Captain Craige, of the Royal Engi-
neers-, will arrive at this port from Woolwich on the
21st inst., to relieve the company under Captain
Barry, R.E., which returns the same day to Wool-
wich.