The Sun.
London, England, 1844-04-20 00:00:00

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to remind the House
that, in consequence of the postponement of the Irish
Registration Bill, he had given notice that it w,as his
intention that evening to move the second reading of the
County Courts Bill as the first Order of the Day. He
had, however, omitted to give formal notice of his inten-
tion, and the consequence was that the Order of the
Day for the Committee of Supply stood as the Order of
the Day to be first taken after the Irish Registration
Bill. He wished that no Hon. Member should be taken
by surprise, and therefore he would leave it to the
House to determine whether he should proceed with the
County Courts Bill—(Hear, hear)—or whether the
Committee of Supply should be taken. It was entirely
an error of his own that proper notice had not been given.
Mr. J. JERVIS had given notice of an amendment
on the County Courts Bill. He had to thank the Right
Hon. Gentleman for his courtesy in informing him that
it was his intention to proceed with the Bill that even-
ing. He (Mr. Jervis) was perfectly prepared to go on,
but he knew several Hon. Members who had gone away
under the impression that the County Courts Bill would
not come on; and, under those circumstances, he thought
it would be better, that the County Courts Bill should
be postponed.
Mr. WATSON expressed a hope that the discussion
on the County Courts Bill would be deferred until some
other evening.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM thought it would perhaps be
best to take the business of the evening as it stood upon
the paper
Mr. LABOUCHERE did not object to the arrange-
ments entered into yesterday ; but he must observe that,
strictly speaking, it was better not to allow that course
to be established as a precedent. By saying that, he did
not mean to throw any obstacle in the way of the
arrangements that had been made.
Lord ASHLEY wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man in the Chair, whether the same objection applied to
the instructions to the Committee, of which notice had
just been given by the Hon. and Learned Member for
Bath, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, applied
to his (Lord Ashley's) instructions ?
The SPEAKER said that the same objection to the
motion which the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
proposed to make did not (as we understood) apply, as
in the case of the motion of the Noble Lord the other
day. The rule of the House was this—that no person
could instruct the Committee to do that which the Com-
mittee could do without them. If the proposition of the
Hon. and Learned Member was within the scope of the
Bill, it was quite competent to the Committee to deal
with it without any instruction to them. But, if it were
not, the Hon. and Learned Member could move his
instructions.

Mr. ROEBUCK said—perhaps the Houss would
allow him to state that he, too, had considered the point
of form, and he took the rule of the House to be this—
that no instruction could affirm the powers of a Com-
mittee, but that it might restrict or extend those powers.
His (Mr. Roebuck's) purpose was to restrict, and he,
therefore, thought that it was competent for him to move
his instruction.

Mr. HUME said he was altogether against the prin-
ciple of interfering with manual labour ; but as he was
in favour of several clauses of the Bill, he could not con-
cur with the lion. and Learned Member's proposal, lest
he should be found acting in opposition to the whole
measure. _ _ _ _

Sir J. GRAHAM said, that as a point of order he
thought notice should be given before they discussed
this question. He would submit that the object of an
instruction to the Committee was not that that Commit-
tee should do anything, or omit to do anything, but only
to give the Committee power to do something, which
otherwise they would not be competent to do.—(Hear,
hear.) If it were competent to them to do anything,
or to omit to do anything, without an instruction, then
he submitted that the instruction not being necessary,
was unparliamentary. The single question was, whether
the abject, sought by the Hon. Member for Bath, could be
attained without an instruction ?—(Hear, hear.) If it
could be, he would submit that the instruction was un-
necessary and unparliamentary.
Mr. ROEBUCK said he certainly could not attain his
object without an instruction. His object was to pre-
vent the Committee from entertaining the question.
The SPEAKER said it would not be for the con-
venience of the House that this matter should be debated
upon a mere hypothetical case. The proper time for
debating the question would be when it arose upon a
point of order. lie had endeavoured to explain to the
House what he conceived to be the rule ; at the same
time he thought the question should be discussed when
the Hon. and Learned Member moved the instruction.
Mr. WARD said he thought the Hon. and Learned.
Member would fully attain his object, by moving the
omission of the 32c1 clause, and that would raise the
whole point. He had himself come down to the House
with the intention of giving notice that he would move
the omission of that clause.

The Order of the Day for the second reading of the
Irish Registration Bill was read for the purpose of being
postponed.

CHARITABLE PAWN SOCIETIES BILL.

In answer to a question from Mr. GISBORNE,
Mr. GLADSTUNE was understood to say that the
Government did not intend to interfere with this Bill.

BANK CHARTER BILL

Sir J. GRAHAM stated, that as the Budget was fixed
for the 29th, and generally took precedence of other
business, it would be taken on that evening, before the
discussion on; he Bank Charter Bill.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Budget was at all times
a matter of interest, and would this year be particularly
so ; they could not, therefore, be sure that the discussion
on it would last but a short time.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE thought the Bank Charter
might as well be postponed at once till the Gth of May.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
On the motion of Lord ELIOT the Municipal Cor-
porations (Ireland) Bill was read a second time, without
opposition, and ordered to be committed on tho 29th.
COUNTY COURTS.

In answer to a question from Mr. JERVIS.
Sir J. GRAHAM fixed the Committee on the Count,
Courts Bill for Monday next.
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

A messenger from the Lords brought up several Bills.
EXPENDITURE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

On Sir S. GRAHAM moving the Order of the Day
for going into Committee of Supply.
Mr. HUME said he had on several occasions, during
past years, submitted to the House the propriety of hav-
inf. before it an account of the expenditure of the House
of Lords, which this House was called on to pay, and
which they had voted, notwithstanding considerable op-
position. What he wished to ask was this, whether he
should be able to call fur any copy of a report of
the House of Lords, purporting to recommend an addi-
tional expenditure of 1,000/. • If the House of Lords
thought fit to create a new office' or increase
the salary of an existing one, he wished to know what,
means this House had of possessing the grounds on
which that change took place, because he had been told
flatly that it could not be given. If an officer who had
no duty to perform was paid 501. a year, he might be
paid very amply ; and if the House of Lords chose to
increase his salary to 1,550 L he wished to know what
means the Commons of England had of informing them-
selves of the grounds of that increase?
Lord STANLEY'S reply was inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. HUME said he had received no answer to the
question he had put.
Lord STANLEY said he apprehended it was in the
Hon. Gentleman's power to move for any information he
might require.
Mr. HUME then gave notice that he should- move
that the vote he had objected to should be deferred till
Monday or Tuesday, when he.would make a motion on
the subject.
BOROUGH OF HORSHAM.

Mr. TUFNELL wished to know from the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite (Sir T. Fremantle) why the writ for
Horsham had not been moved, when writs for the other
vacancies had been so? A vacancy in the representa-
tion ought always to be filled up without delay.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said he was not called upon to
explain why the vacancy for this borough had not been
filled up. He presumed, however, that the writ of
summons to the House of Lords not having been issued,
the Hon. Gentleman indirectly referred to had not ceased
to be a Member of that House. The House of Commons
could not, of course, issue a writ for a Member until an
actual vacancy occurred.
_ Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Oentleman who

had last spoken asserted that he had no know-
ledge on this subject, and he was not answerable
for what the Government took no particular interest in.
The Government ought to feel an interest wherever in-
jury was dono, and there was no greater injury to the
public than when a borough was left without its repro-
sentative.—(Hear, hear.) It was notorious that no one
could sit as a Member there when he had become a Mem-
ber of the other House. The non-issuing of the writ in
question might occur from some delay or neglect, but, if
continued, then he (Lord John Russell) should consider
it necessary to bring the subject formally under the
consideration of the House, in order to the application of
a remedy.—(Hear, hear.)
SUPPLY.

Sir GEORGE CLERK thought that as some disel-
sion was likely to take place before going into sCommit.
tee of Supply, it was as well that he should state what
estimates he intended to proceed with. He did not in-
tend to proceed with the estimates in class four, be-
cause some of them were not yet printed; but he should
proceed with class five, the Colonial Estimates; with class
six, and with class seven.
CANADIAN MINISTRY.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for the Colonies, if he would have any objec-
tion to lay before the House copies of any communica-
tions which had passed between the Governor-General
of Canada and his Ministry on the subject of the late