The Sun.
London, England, 1850-03-15 00:00:00

It was , -
(nic to aim stit- that eiCCtIa2StIP.CN Widsout
1154 ne 1E1)0'1 ol his Noble F: fend, there was now pro-
remedy the inconvealenee which existed. The
1114,1,'"un• B trout t then refrisrel to the repertriderde
where ins 'I,
CtOTS ( f rear teries ie Manchester arid else-
les3en'ts,ll°"'ing the greet inconvenitieee produced by the
stalired Prticuls-ly that pertien of it which
mil! the atittnihhe e f the lelentring clesses at the
rases at "ail-past feet e'closk in thee, morning. Iti must
eta; tt,, greet number were employed but fir ti few mi-
theu the purpose of cemplying with the Act, and were
sestinl-;iepelleel to go to their homes fir some hours, before
to rning work again, which was a great iucenvenience
deprtyPY, end pressed heavily on al!, by needlessly
lligh,l,ng them of two or three hour,' rest. The
taath'llonourable Baronet then proceeded to observe.
tar e. did 0,.,t think that the intention 13f the Leeislit-
Inel agog el,'ar and indisoulable as the Noble Lord
ati4:4ltned it to be. His Noble Friend laid it down as
411 pe 1'1) b e Ler, that it was distinctly intended that
Were persons belonging to the classes afteeteel by the law
(11teadllaw°1-1t ten hours only continuously, and he had
Itel to 'Toni Mr. Iterner in suoet t if ;ha', assumption,
Kiiii).3""iit that in 1844 it was directly intended to
4,,er tt the shift system. He (Sir G. Grey) Nvas, how -
fea4t opinion that the statement of Mr. Horner re-
nd t° the Bill, end not t the Act Of 1841, and the
I°4 of the Legislature was not to he sought, in
Ltal::l,4t first intro or iu the &l ever upon these,
to t• the e!auses of the Acts which embodied that in-
if thl?* Beroti Park-, in his judament, had said that
the le.l,l,4lit'lition of the L l•tel been to enact that
Pose I, t's laaoar should cantinuettie aria to stop-
thet ll the children and young persons simultane-ms,
laiteitktentiou should have been eleerl; add definitely
ill Weil, that was precisely the intention of the
41 as introduced in 1844 by his Noble Friend, and
llor" no doubt but that it was to that Bill Mr.
it wller referred. In the (deb as clan se of that Bill
lek:is!apressly enacted filet atl children Lind young
la they ohoiild commeilcs work aed leave off well's
15ihou same hours. That clause was clear and urinin-
-Iv4o and, if :adopt it by tao Legislature, would
title) Ito doubt whatever of the intention of the Ls-
,,\'? tl'e to put and end to shifts and relays. But what
A01,,k, Oahe,result of ihet Bill? It war withdrawn by his
The
Friend, and a new Bill, in which the eighth
the ii•„wa 5 wanting, it was not propose again.
tltsfulthil- in that respect' was altogether different, and
Ziisst; th':)..ati3.:ll which passed into a law. He, there-
ugnt his Noble .Friend was not fully justified in
Ita:clUng that the intention f Pirliame it was as he had
iG it. That intention must be taken as it was found
ststute-hook. The withdrawal of the Bill in its
pc,, tal form by his Noble Friend, and his not again
:48 att, the unambiguous clause had referred to,
aok iitaacrent to cause doubts upon the subject. He did
talent ,?w ever, mean to say that the intention of Parlia-
aarouad not been truly stated by his Noble Friend; he
clewl•Y Cott ended that that intention bed not b: en so
Vet;.?; and unequivocally expressed ao to justify the
(11.4tuoeided statement made by his Noble Friend.-
1411s1:').,11, eat') Witn respett to the course proposed by
105 sot °uazi Friend, he was gratified to find that he did
tt: oeead, 'as he understood him, to call upon the
iatet) to Pats a declaratory Bill as to what was the
Wee el% of the Legislature, because he thought it
tip not fer one Parliament to declare the iaten-
the ,1 another. It would not be necessary fcr him on
ptile present occasion to offer any oh•servetions upon
o.`ette(lti-r,B° proposed to be taken by his Noble Friend, or
aoetPate the discussion on the provisions of the Bill.
deaf °ul'l enter upon that discussion with an anxious
vatilo secure to children and young persons all the
4144 'lO3 which it was clear the measure was calcu••
MislAe make, upon them, while at the same time he
desire to lay as little restriction upon adult labour
ItoWsible.—(flca,r, hear.) Whether that was possible
Ne matter far fUture considera•ion. lie should not
while tO the introduction of the Bill—(flear, hear)—
a,?altt I!Aki same time he did not bind himself to any
Iltjac of it, was not ashamed to confess that on
te,httiPertant subject his mind was not finally made up,
le,44se he saw that there were vast and great interests
th 7Qd in it, and he was most sincerely desirous that
tittiakiktter should be settled in a way that would give
action and the greatest amount of benefit to ell the
°it interested in it. lie would suggest t his Neble
totosla,l the propriety of introducing a strict thfinition of the
liolg night." As to one bean[t he must remark that his
pertain
Friend appeared to error when he stated that
'ltzrtlin districts it was:almost impossible as pt
Of 3tO levy the fines fur the infraction of the provisions
!iite Act. He had before him a report of the inspector
h elpec-t to a ease at Blackburn (as we understood),
Ten the magistrate, though by no means a friend of
m Hours'. Aet, inflicted upon the Messrs. Flop-
• Pen:ads, to the amount of 70/, for fifty eases of
. 4ilefraetion of the Act. He repeated that he would
tlitis?PP°sle the introduction of the measure, but in dis
bing the question his great desire would be, as far as
114°1°, to reconcile the master and the operative, whose
Itett'e3ts were identical. He believed the manufacturers
de a animated by a fair and generous principle in their
40„Ingi with those in their employment. lbo saw his
- Friend opposite (Mr. Bankes) shake his head, and
oi‘?ss sorry to • see that he did not concur in that
tet-rnalunt But he thought that, without favouring an
104,1,T0 view on either side, it was possible, by a fcir
tioe-I"itory adjustment of the claims of each, to pro-
)1. that amity betwc ea manufacturers and operatives
414 was essential to the prosperity and welfare of
'll(tiear, bear.)
Met BANKES said, tl'e Right Hon. Baronet bad ex-
lhattled with his usual ability the state of his mind at
kttt, 11,A -ula with reference to this question. It was a
1s)," which must be very soon decided, because the
It4:l4tt uncertainty and division among those interested
4111111ot creditable either to the Government or the Le-
ature,,—(llear, hear.) He thought the house would
ia:IZ with him that they were very mt'eh indebted to
fare :ehi° Friend for taking the matter up, after the Go •
theuolit had declined to do se. He must dissent from
katattetoment implied in the Right Hon. Baronet's re-
klah'es4 a% to the course proposed by his Noble Friend.
itaiTa`'oble Friend had most distinctly stated that it was
th,'Antention to call upon the House to declare that
ta-e'''''t was a Ten Hours' Act of continuous labour, to
tees
er, 'toned from the hour the first young person c0m-
c14,,-"d work. Whether that ought t be done by a de-
to,:atery or an enacting Bill, was comparatively of little
Vefluenee, though, under all the circumstances, per-
-14",1,1 an enacting Act would be the most proper. With
Wet to the intentions of the Legislature in 1844, he
oDi prothss to he able to give a very decided
4"),Ils though his impression was the reverse
11),,,1nat of. the Right Honourable Baronet at
4,' time ; having been very gradually induced to
a supporter of measures intended to lessen
aff,'alsour of the factory operatives, he contented him-
-01 its
taking a very humble part. The statements
14 ,(us Noble Friend, and the high authority which be-
aZe,cl to the late Mr. Fielden as a large manufacturer,
cumed with the advantages which all experience had
litre to result from every approach in that direction,
14,
s, however, fully confirmed him in the soundness and
mess of the policy he had advocated. Whatever
tOut be the case with respect to the Bill of 1844,
re certainly was no doubt about that of 1847. But it
somewhat strange that there should have been such
tb~tfference between the Bill of his Noble Friend, and
)4fL Act which was passed in 1844. His Noble Friend,
a'r obtaining the sanction of Parliament to that Bill,
ite •
la, Induced, -by the belief that the Government of that
iea were cordially with him, to leave to them the carrl-
° of the measure, and withdrew his own upon that
J:,erstinding. Perhaps the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir
k Graham), who was then Secretary of State for the
leitno Department, would inform the House how it
4:4 the Bth clause was omitted.—(loo.r, hear.) But
he had said, whatever doubt there was as to the
tjution of Parliament in 1844, there was none as
e the intention in 1847, the Bill was distinctly
tOtltd as a Ten Hours' Bill. It was argued
Uf both by its supporters and its opponents. Not one
kipthe lion. Gentlemen opposite had any idea of the
1);.1 System, by which the low had been subsequently
Vied. Indeed they taunted the opponents with the
I,"'t that practically the Bill would restrict even adult
4leur to ten hours, because though it only referred to
ildren and young women under eighteen years of age,
a,t. it was impossible to work the mills without their
Z&istance.—(Hear, hear.) That was a view of the
rater which the supporters of the measure did not con-
ste. It was, in fact, their opinion that fir the benefit
tOll parties 'it was better that it should b 3 so—(llear,
I,Cr)—and that opinion had been amply borne out by
,general results of the measure wherever it had been
1;4-V tried. All the expectations of its advocates had
ki:11 fully realised, and all the predictions of its opph-
,tits had been falsified. Under those circumstances it
could have been strange, indeed, if Government had
PPosed that confirmation of the law which the recent de-
tl.ltion in a superior court had rendered necessary. But
had a great authority to adduce to show that there had
in 1844 been no doubt as to the intention of the
LoMoters of these Bills; that Hon. Gentleman was at that
le, and was now, a Member of that House, and a great
4.1
lithority not only in that House on these matters, but
40 in the country. In 1844 he said that if we extended
it,l4l' Markets, and thereby enhanced the value of our
7°ductions—if we opened our ports freely to the corn,
4free, and sugar, which were then excluded by heavy
duties, then ten hours labour would be as good as twelve
i'Onrs was then, because the advantage of larger markets
51' our own produce and the saving from cheapened itn-
-I'erts, would go into the pockets of the labourer. Such
Siding—([Tear,
the opinions of the Hon. Member for the West
hear)—in 1844, then the Member for
a,"°,,ehport, and then, as now, an authority with the me-
'4.h"lacturing interest He trusted that in the course of
go debates on this question they would see that Hon.
17013aber in his place, and that as we had now granted
;13 demands for the cheapened importation of corn, coffee,
the Hon. Gentleman would redeem his pledge,
441 support the Ten Hours Bill.
) Mr. M. GIBSON said that the Hon. Gentleman who
.a.let addressed the House had stated that the object cf
‘le Bill was to limit adult labour.
Mr. BANKES denied that he had said so. What he
titid was, that such would be the elf -ct of the Bill.
1,..Mr. M. GIBSON would accept the explanation of the
;1011. Gentleman. In giving his support to the motion
Lot the introduction of the 13,11 proposed to be brought
'l4 the Noble Lord, he must not be understood to
'4l Pam t the various provisions of the shadowed forth
jY the Noble Lord. He admitted, ho ii
wever, that the
as it stood, required alteration. He could not
Zianit that the manufacturers of England had systema-
;'eeilly evaded the law, although he thought they were
ilastified in feeling indignant that this House
.shouldhd
,)eve interfered with factory labour in the way it u
;(31-ua The Noble Lord had allowed his feelings to go
s',)o far in saying that to his factory Bill he attributed
I,,.`tie improved state of the people engaged in factories.
Vte (Mr. M. Gibson) thought that much of the system-
e`loprovement in the state of the people was to be attri-
buted to the alteration which had taken place in the com-
kereial laws of the country. The Noble Lord referred to
14e Bishop of Dandee--(A latigh)—the bishop
„‘ that locality, and had spoken of the large
wqre4s9 congregation, Which he attaUted

to the improved eharac'er of the people xi-
gaged it' factories, arising out of an al'eration in the
law. He really did not think this was the wayin
which that House ought to be addressed. The address
of ihe Noble Lord hal a social or sentimental tinge un-
suited to the atno3ph,..re of that assembly, which was a
busin,!,ss assein':4, one of whose duties was to be sure to
look to Vie social wants of the people ; but then the re-
coiremeuts of ihe people were to be dealt with in a dif-
ferent manner from that suggested by the Noble Lord,
who seemed to exhibit more of the enthusiast, than the
practical man of business, iu his observations that

evening.
Mr. F. O'CONNOR thought that the speech of the
Noble Lord was plain, straightforward, and practical.
It clearly pointed out the hardships to which the fac-
tory operatives were subjected, anal the mode in which
he ought to be relieved. The Bill which the Noble
Lord proposed to bring in was the only way in which
the factory operative could be benched, Ile con-
tended that a limit ought to be placed on male adult
labour in factories. The much maligned agrieultu-
risti did not :employ their labourers beyond ,eleven
hours a day, while the factory oeerative was
obliged, by the relay syst int, to work fifteen hours.
Tim consevence was, that the agricultural labourer
was healthy and strong. while the Ist er was sickly an
e tic. The truth was, that the factory' system was an
abomination, and its exist-:nce reflected a disgrace on the
Legislature of the country. The average length cf a
fact pry operative's life was 28 yea: s, while that of the
agricultural (shearer, even in I) gsetshire, was 53 years.
The eystem had been well explained by the Noble Lord
who had male a powerful speech on the occasion—a
speech that would speak to the world, while that of tl.e
Right llun. Gentleman (Br. M. Gibson) was only in-
tended for a district. Most audacious attacks had been
made by the Noble Lord opposite on that excellent man
Oastler, who had properly exhibited to the world
the character of the millowners, and he (Mr. O'Connor)
would say that if he wanted to put his hand upon a set of
tyrants he would do so by piecing it on the master ma-
nufacturers of the north.—(Hear.)
Sir R. INGLIS rose to defend his Noble Friend
aeainst the imputations cast upon him by the Right lion.
Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson), who had stated that the
speech of his Noble Fri nd was marked by enthusiasm.
All good works had been fl' cte / through the influence
of ceithusilistn, but enthusiasm was not a marked attri-
bute cf his Noble Friend's speech, for it was filled with
fact e which the Right llon. Gentleman had better meet
than attempt to upset them by unfairly describing the
speech ;which contained them. The law which bad
relic i the Legislature had been decided by the judges
to be that which the Legislature never intended it should
be. This being so, it was the duty of the House to
amend the law generally. He must say that be thought
the proposal of his Noble Friead was that best suited to
meat the exigencies of the case. Ile would support with
pleasure the proposition of his Noble Friend.
Mr. BRIGHT said it seemed to be admitted by all
parties that it was desirable to bring in a Bill to sc t7le
the question to which the measure referred. He only
rose to express an opinion on a subject which might have
its influence at a future stage of the Bill—he meant the
number of hours which operatives should be engaged in
factories. It was well known that he was extensively
engaged in factory employment, and observed that in
order that a measure, in respect to factory employment,
should work beneficially for the employer and the em-
ployed, it was essential that the view of both earths
should be taken into pintail consideration, and that the
legislation should not be all on one side.—(Hear.) It
wee a fact that the Ten Hours' Bill did not pass with the
concurrence of the master manufacturers, and the result
was, that, in many instances, the working men had been
subjected to disadvantages in certain factories. But
this was the result of the estrangement which
teok plece between the employer and the employed,
owing ti the Act of 1847. Ilea appealed to the Noble
Lorewhether he would limit his Bill to ten hours. HO
was not hound to do so, for not a small portion of the
operatives, and the great body of the employers, were
anxious to meet each other in a spirit of conciliation,
and come to some terms by which this matter might be
adjusted.—(flear.) Ho would not condescend to reply
to the coarse vituperation poured upon the master manu-
fseturere by the lion. Member for Nottingham.—(Hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman had tried his hand at improving
the position of the factory operatives, under which he
had deluded them from their employment, and ultimately
succeeded in placing them in a quagmire, from which
they could not escape.—(Dear.) When the lion. Gen-
tleman returned to these deluded men their subscrip-
tions, which he had received from them to carry out a
most fallacious system, then he might be permitted to
have some claim to assail the master manufacturers,
if they deserved his attacks; but, until that time, he
thought he might fairly say that the master menu-
feesto ers would not be much affected by anything which
fell from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.—(Heap.)
Heretofore the Noble Lord declared himself to be the
pledged advocate of the factory operatives, and in that
line of policy it seemed to be his object to do all in his
power to blacken the character of the factory employers.
The Noble Lord now attributed all the improvement in
the factory operatives to his Act of 1847. Now, seeing
that the Bill did not come intooperation until May, 1848,
it was rather too much to attach to it all the improve-
ment which he admitted the factory people manifested.
Much of this improvement he assigned to the altered
state of the law in respect to the commercial policy of
this country. Ile should be sorry to see a system of
things which should compel men to work for ten, eleven,
or twelve hours a day. The factory owners did not de-
sire in and any further legislation on this subject ought,
in his opinion, to make some diminution of the mart-4in,
and thereby afford the means of remedying at least some
of the grievances complained of. In carrying out this
object they should avoid giving cause for the hostility of
manufacturers, supposed to bo represented in that
House; for they must not shut their eyes to this fact,
that unless there were a fair amount of agreement
between the capitalist who pays the wages, and the la-
bourers who did the work, their legislation must of ne-
cessity prove unsatisfactory. Within the last two years
he thought there was not a good feeling between the
employers and the employed. The exaspera•ion still
existed, and would continue to exist, so long as the law
existed in its present shape. He would now ask the
Noble Lord whether, with the influence he. possessed
with many persons out of doors connected with
the manufacturers, and representing as he did a
very large portion of them, he could not persuade
them to take the rational view of this question—
(Hear, hear)—whether it was not possible to come
to sonic arrangement which should meat with the
concurrence of all parties concerned. If the Noble Lord
did not think that plan impracticable, end the House
came in that spirit to the consideration of the measure,
he hoped they would discuss and settle, and settle for
ever, a question which had done more to desecrate a cor-
dial interchange of kindly feelings between the two
classes, and to foster heart-burnings in the manufactur-
ing districts, than any question which had arisen there,
at least since he had been connected with them.
Mr. AGLIONBY observed that the discussion, so far
as it had proceeded, had not keen unattended with ad-
vantage, though from the concurrence of opinion upon it
he had certainly hoped that it would have come to a
more speedy conclusion. He agreed with much of what
had fellen from the Hon. Member for Manchester, who
spoke last, especially that which had reference to the in-
pot Utica of procuring a certain amount cf concurrence
from all the patties concerned in the question, before
proceeding to a final legislative enactment, but he dif-
fered from him entirely with respect to the conclusions
at which he would arrive, because he believed that he
would find it utterly impossible te obtairi that harmony
of feeling and reciprocity of purpose which ho so much
and very properly desired. It was for the character of
the Legislature to take care, by passing well-digested
measures, that the public should not have to say that
they were unable to give effect to their intentions. Here
their intention clearly was to restrict the hours of labour
to ten, an intention which the language of the Act the
reverse of seconded. The judges' construction of the
Act was undoubtedly right, but their intention re-
mained the same, and should now be properly borne
out by the law if it before was defective. He should
never make a single remark of censure on these mill-
owners, who lead construed the law according to an in-
!erpret ition which it it had been held to admit of. Still
less would he think of charging them with having
evaded the law, as the judgment showed that they had
a right to construe it as they did ; but he would say
that he would do his best to carry out the intention of
tile Legislature with respect to this Bill, that of render-
ing it bona fide a ten hours working Bill.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN MANNERS said he wished to state
most emphatically that he and those who thought with
him were firmly resolved that there should he no com-
promise. That the manufacturing people of Lancashire,
Yorkshire, and Scotland having, after thirty-three
years' incessant efforts, obtained an enactment which
might be termed the Magna Chant
whi of
ch i their righhe
ts,
were determined to preserve it,
promised that they should be backed by their represen-
tatives in that House. During the progress of the agi-
tation of this question he bad endeavoured to promote
the unity of feeling between the millowners and the
factory hands, which the Hon. Member fir Manchester
had spoken of. The Hon. Member had, in his opi-
nion, very wrongly censured the Noble Lord the
Member for Bath, who introduced this motion, for not
going into the details of the system which he proposed.
What he thought the House required wathe to k
the d
now the
grievance that was to be redressed, and n
culty of providing the remedy would be reduced within
very narrow limits. The Honourable Member was still
more incorrect in calling this a hasty and inconsiderate
measure. After 33 years of agitation and discussion,
which ended in its adoption, he did not think that was
the mode in which an enactment should be spoken of,
the intention of which was to provide a remedy for many
grievances, under which a largo portion of our working
population had been admitted to labour. The amended
Bill was most necessary, and it should have his ready
support.—(ll, ar, hear.)
'Mr. W. J. FOX said he wished to say a few words,
and a very few, on the subject, before the discussion was
brought to a close. Particularly agreeing with the Hon.
Member for Manchester, that a satisfactory settlement
of this question must have as great a concurrence as
possible of the employers and the employed, he ques-
tioned whether there might be any possibility of a
shorter road to that consummation than what had been
suggested by the Noble Lord who opened the discussion.
For he believed that not only was there a difficulty, which
arose from a determined pursuit through a long course
of years in search of this very measure against any com-
promise materially affecting the Ten Hours' Bel, but
this difficulty also, Hat. in the intention of the Legisla-
ture, and with the concurrence of a large portion of the
manufacturers, the hours of labour were to he curtailed
in the mauner pointed out by the statute.—(Hear, hear.)
From the statements of the inspectors, and the reports of
other parties whose opinions had been taken on the
subject, the masters and operatives, with reference to
various qtio,itioll9 put to them, showed that there was
no appearance of any other scheme being brought into
operation. AU. Zama took the opinion of upwards

50 masters, and found that 20 of them approved of the
Ten [lours Bill, 22 of them were for an Eleven Hours
Bill, and 15 for a Twelve Hours Bill. The same inspec-
tor personally, and assisted by others, took the opinions
both of the men and of the women employed in fac-
tories. The result was a very decisive or,e as to their
desires. He took the opinions altogether of 1,153 per-
sons, which were stated in the report of the hall' -: esr
eielieg October 31, 1848. The number of male opera-
tives was 651, of whom there were 411 in favour of a
Ten Flours Bill, 96 for an eleven hours, and 114 for
a twelve hours system. Of the 502 women wh3
were consulted, 272 were for a ten hours, 51 for an
eleven hours, and 179 for a twelve hours system. This
curious result showed sufficiently that any almoapt at
a compromise was most unlikely 0 be attended with
success.—(Hear, hear.) He did not regard the Ten
Hours Bill as being the sole cause of the improved state
of things which had of late bran observed in the manu-
facturing districts. Ho agrs el with his Honourable
Friend near him, that it was to be ascribed to those
measures which had made food more: cheap and abun-
dant, but he would remind him at the same time that
this change would not have produced such results had
it not been accompanied by the Ten Hours' Bill, for no
cheapness of food could have given to the operatives those
opportunities of inaproverneet of which there was such
abundant evidences of their not being neglectful.—
(Hear.) If it was not the cause, still it was one essen-
tial condition, without which these results would not have
been realised. He trusted that the Noble Lord who in-
troduced this discussion would adhere, most strictly to
his declared purpose of deviating not ono hair's
breadth, from what was understood to be the inten-
tion c f the enactment as it now stood. Ile
thought it as well, as the Noble Lord proposed, to
leave the Bill in its present integrity, as to the purpose
wl.ieh was most distinctly declared when the Bill was
last before the House. Perhaps there might have been
a violation of the statute, but it must not be forgotten
that the millowners, operatives, and preprie tars had been
expielly desirous for the settlement f this question. Th
panics most deeply affected by the statato were the
women and very young persons, whose dependent con.
ditien frequeetly reede:ed them the subje eta of very
harsh treatment, not only by their mast,rs but by their
husbands, of which there we re lief mtunately many in-
staeces. This eas au exa nple, amongst others, of evils
for which this Bill provided, and with reference to which
the greatest of living political economists—he meant
Fir. John Moll—said, in the case of women and child-
ren—" Freedom of contract meant nothing more than
freedom of coereion."—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fox)
trusted that, the law being decidedly declared, there
would be a more general concurrence between owners
and employed than had yet existed; and that they might
saes-ably atta'm to the fical close cf an agitation, the con-
tinuance of which was everywhere to be deprecated—an
agitation which was much worse than any political
struggle; because it struck deeper into the social system,
and inflicted more wounds on the best and purest interests
of society, and on the harmony which should bind so-
ciety together.—(Cheers.)
Lord ROBERT' GROSVENOR said he only rose in
consequence of an observation which fell from the Hon.
Member for Manchester, by which he understood that in
ca e any lion. Member should state a grievance and
propose a remedy, the efficacy of which was not doubted,
he should immediately render himself liable to the im-
putation of Socialism and Communism. That was an
altesnadve that not only could nut exist but in the most
illiberal mind, but had a signification elsewhere, which
peculiarly ought to recommend its being avoided. He
thought the Noble Lord the Member for Bath, who had
brought the subject before the House, had very properly
put it upon the footing he had, and that he would remain
true to his original intention.—( [Tear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that as he understood
there was to be no opposition to the introduction of
this Bill ha was unwilling to prolong an unnecessary
discussion. Ha must say, however, that be was dis-
pose d to approach this question in the most dispassion-
ate manner; and his Noble Friend the Member for
Bath would excuse him if he said he (Lord Ashley) had
prepared him for a discussion of an opposite descrip-
tion, when before ascertaining whether there would
be an opposition to his motion, he went through all the
arguments that were urged three or four years ago. An
Hon. Member who had spoken in the debate had threat-
ened, in a prophetic manner, the discontent of the manu-
facturing classes if this Bill were not passed. The ear-
Feet of his (Sir J. Graham's) political experience had
taught him the folly of dealing in prophecy, and there-
fore he should cautiously abstain from prophesying any-
thing.—(Laughter.) Neither would he make assertions
at this period of the debate; for if he had had the
honour of speaking to the House before the Right Hon.
Baronet the Home Secretary, it was his intention to
have offered evidence on the subject to the House; and
he should have stated that his object in framing the Bill,
as he introduced it, teas to prohibit the " shift" or "relay"
system in any form whatever. That was his original
intention, and he would now state to the House what
occurred on the occasion. He could not say that at any
time, following the bent of his reasoning, he was favour-
able to a restriction on the rights cf capital and of labour,
and be was not favourable to a twelve hours Bill. But
finding that restriction provided for by an Act of Par-
liament, it was represented to him by the f sctory in-
spectors that it worked unequally and unjustly, and it
was said that unless restrictions were placed on the limit
of time very injurious consequences would ensue. They
pressed on him also the necessity of a direct enactment.
Reluctantly he assented, and directed Mr. Horner to
have a clause framed embodying these views. That was
accordingly done in the first draft of the Bill, and here
vtas the imperfection of the measure; for he was not
aware until then that the course originally determined
upon had been materially altered in the second. He con-
sidered that it was very desirable that the House, before,
the discussion proceeded farther, should see the mea-
sure which his Noble Friend proposed to introduce on
this subject. He believed that the object of the work-
ing classes was to see justice fairly carried out, and
he felt that this was the object of his Noble Friend,
as related to the Ten Hours' 811. His Noble Friend's
argument would go the length, that manufacturers
bad nothing to fear on this subject. He had be-
stowed much consideration on this question, and his
feeling towards the working classes was very fa-
vourable, but his belief was, that if this experiment
was carried out with all its intentions' the time would
come when the working classes would themselves be
convinced that the measure would be conducive to their
welfare. Ile believed that the working classes were of
opinion, with regard to the measure of 1844, that they
should have the benefit of shifts and relays. When the
short hours Bill was first brought forward, he confessed
he was, as far as his own opinion weot, reluctant to in-
terfere iu the question of employment between the em-
ployed and the master manufacturers, having a strong
disinclination to meddle with the interests of labour; but
a gentleman now no more—Mr. Stuart—having ex-
pressed his views in so strong a manner to him on the
subject, he instructed him to embody those views in a
clause, although his own feelings were opposed to them.
It was necessary, in his opinion, that they should have
one uniform system and one rule; and he was quite sure
that they never could work this measure unless they
came to a better regulation of machinery. Ho should be
most anxious to see the Bill of his Noble Friend before
they approached this discussion, and he should, before the
second reading, endeavour to refresh his memory as to
his former views on the subject. As between the shift
and relay system, it was quite possible to repudiate the
one without condemning the other.
After a few words from Mr. EDWARDS, the se-
conder of the motion, in relation to an allusion made
to him by the Right Honourable Baronet Sir James
Graham,
Col. THOMPSON observed that it was well known to
all who took an interest in this question, that when a
restriction of the period of labour was first proposed he
had opposed it, conceiving it to be an attack in some
sort upon the manufacturing interest. Times, however,
had altered, and perhaps the position of things had
changed. He had received instructions on this subject
from many of his constituents, but it so happened that
all their communications pointed one way. They all
said they were anxious that the Ten Hours Bill should
be restored to its integrity; and the manufacturing ca-
pitalists particularly represented their anxiety that li-
berty should be given to all persons in their employment
at the same time—(hear, hear)—for they stated that
they had set on foot institutions of various kinds for the
education and improvement of their workpeople, the
success of which mainly depended on the point that all
in their employ should be liberated from work at one and
the same hour.—(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. BROWNE,
Lord ASHLEY replied. He had no other intention
than to settle the point in question, and he intended,
therefore, to bring in a Bill that the hours of labour
being at present limited to ten hours a day should be
continuous labour, and date from the time at which the
labour began. That was the sum and substance of the
Bill which he meant to bring in. He had been charged
in the course of this discussion by the Honourable Mem-
bers for Manchester with inimical feelings towards the
master manufacturers. By one of the Honourable Gen-
tlemen he was charged with being a " hired" advocate
in this cause; and by the other with entertaining " So•
cialist" views upon it. In those respects he had bet.
much misrepresented. He rejoiced at the inanner in
which his motion, generally speaking, had been received
by the House, and should the Bill be carried his hope
was that it would be productive of allaying the agitation
which at present prevailed between the working classes
and the master manufacturers; and should the Bill not
to passed, what would the effect be?—(Rear, hear.)
He declared that the whole tendency of his political
and public life (now extended over a period of seventeen
years) had been towards a restoration of good feeling
between the woilting classes and the master manufac-
turers.—(llear, hear.) He had only one word more to
add. Depend upon it there was no subject on which the
people felt so strongly as this; and with respect to the
motives attributed to him by the Hon. Members for
Manchester, he could only say that he rejoiced at such a
manifestation of the feebleness of their cause, for ho saw
that they had recourse to the:old and coarse rule—" If
you can't refute your antagonist, why then abuse him."—
(Bear, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. BRIGHT explained that he had recalled the word
" hired" immediately after he had used it, ar,d substi-
tuted the word " pledged" advocate, and he trusted that
the Noble Lord would not suppose that he meant to le
personally offensive to him.
Lease was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. VETO gave notice that he would bring in a " Bill
to render more simple and effectual the titles by which
congregations or societies, or persons for religious pur-
wldounoldt
poses, held property required for such purposes." The
simple,
sahnodu
at present make any observations upon it.
si3oilfLarthreecollnmo
etas
The House then proceeded to the orders of the day.
m'eMndenitlsbeelrf tsoa itt seo,
On the motion that the Spaker leave the Chair,
The House resolved itself into Committee (Mr. Ber-
nal in the chair) on the Titles cf Religious Congrega-
tions (Scotland) Bill, which passed rapidly through that

men

prweag.

HIG El WAY BILL.
On the motion that the High Nay Bill be read a sccand

time,
Sir W. JOLLIFFE expressed his opinion that the
measure was of such vast importance that it could not
pass through a second reading in its present form, with-
out eliciting some discussion. lle considered that the
matte. was intimately connected with labour, and would
suggest the appointment of "way wardens," as pre farallo
to leaving the manegement in the hands of the poor-law
guardians.
Mr. RICE gave his support to the measure, and hoped
the second reading would be carried.
Sir G. STRICKLAND objected to the Bill as being
of a compulsory nature, and affecting districts of England
where the roads where in good repair, as well as those
?Acre the roads were neglected. All the farmers
would oppose the measure most strenuously. He
hoped that it would at all events be put off to another
session.
Mr. HENLEY suggested that the second reading
sho .Id be postponed until of er Enter. The Bill would
overload the boards of guardians with additional work,
and distract their attention from duties which ought to
claim their earnest attention.
Sir J. PAKINGTON could not join in the advice
eith-r to postpone the Bill until after Easter or to next
session. The Bill at all events had simplicity to recom-
-ol it, and on the whole he thought the Government
entialed to support in the measure.
After a brief conversation, in which Mr. Hay:lrd, Mr.
Aglionby, Mr. lioldsworth, Mr. Philip Howard, and Cap-
tain Harris, took parr.
Mr_ LEWIS stated, in reply to Mr. Cardwell, that
the Bill was not intended to extend to any districts that
appointed surveyors under local Acts.
Mr. lIODGSUN moved that the second reading bo
postponed for six months.
Sir GEORGE GREY said there was a great desire
that some more efficient system should be adopted for the
improvement of the high aye, and he trusted the House
wouli content to the second reeding of the Bill. It was
no argument against tho Bill to say that the roads in
one part of the country were good and in another part
bad, and therefore, for the general improvement of the
present system of management, he should press the se-
coed reading of the Bill.
Mr. P. BENNE r supported the ameudment, as he
object-d to the poor-law guardians appointing the sur-
verveyors of those roads.
Mr. FREWEN also objected to the Bill, as it would
completely change the system throughout the country.
The roads in many places were good, end why introduce
such a sweeping treasure as this, which included the
whole country. He also objected to the powers con-
ferred on the poor-law guardians by the Bill.
Mr. DEEDES supported the second reading of the
Bill. Ile believed that anything which might appear
obnoxious in it could be remedied while in Committee,
aid as there, was great reason to find fault with the pre-
sent syste m ho should support the second reading.
Sir WILLIAM JOLLIFFE considered that the
principle f the Bill was to make the improvement of
the roads past and parcel of the poor-law, which would
occasion great inconvenience ; and he should vote
against the second reading.
After a few words from Mr. Addcrley, Mr. Ferrer,
Mr. Henley, and Mr, C. Lewis,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment
For the second reading ..• ... 144
Majority for the second reading —39
The Bill was therefore read a second titre.
CHIEF JUSTICES' SALARIES BILL.
The order of the day for the second reading of this
Bill having been read,
Mr. GOULBURN said he wished to know whether
the measure was to contain any provision upon the sub-
ject of the retiring allowance 0f the chief justices ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the Bill did
not contain any privision upon that point ; but they
might, if they pleased, take it into their consideration in
the Committee.
Mr. MULLINGS said he thought they ought to defer
the second reading of that Bill until they should have
before them returns which had already been ordered of
the amount of patronage in the bands of the chief justices.
It certainly appeared to him that in the present circum-
stances of this country, and after the recent fall in
prices, 8,000/. was too large a sum to pay as a salary to
a chief justice. That learned functionary did not per-
form duties more onerous or more responsible than
those of the Secretary for the Home Department, who
received only 5,0001. a year. He believed that many
Hon. Gentlemen were not aware of the amount of dis-
ress which at present prevailed throughout a great por-
tion of the country. But he had himself suffered from
that distress. In the year 1842 he had invested in the
purchase of an estate the earnings of a long and labo-
rious life, and he found that he could not derive a re-
turn for that investment if the most rigid economy were
not practised in every branch of the public service.
Mr. R. PALMER (said, that as he did not belong to
that branch of the profession from which chief justices
were usually taken, he believed that he could speak
impartially upon ;that subject. It appeared, tol him
that it would be a matter greatly to be deplored if that
House were to go too fast in the way of the reduction
of judicial salaries.—(Hear, hear.) Nothing could be
more essential to the good working of our constitution
than that justice should be administered among us with
efficiency, learning, and purity, and that object could
not be attained unless they gave to the judges
such salaries as would enable them to command the
services of the most eminent members of the legal pro-
fession. It might be true that the duties of the Chief
Justice were not more onerous or important than those
of a Secretary for the Home Department ; but then it
should be remembered that secretaries of state in this
country were usually men of independent fortune, and
that in accepting the office they did not give up a pro-
fession from which they derived considerable incomes.
In the United States judges received very small salaries;
but the consequence of that was that the most eminent
members of the legal profession in that country were un-
willing to allow themselves to be raised to the judicial
bench ; and after they had been so raised it was no un-
usual thing to find them accepting the more profitable
office of registrars in the very courts in which they had
presided. He again implored the House not to proceed
too fast in the system of reducing the incomes of judges,
for he believed that a more ruinous economy could not
be adopted.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SPOONER said that although the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had just addressed the House
was not a member of that branch of the profession from
which chief justices were usually taken, he was a mem-
ber of that branch from which Lord Chancellors were
commonly selected, and from the talent displayed in that
House by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, be (Mr.
Spooner) should not be surprised if he was one day to
become a candidate for that office.—(Laughter.) But it
was clear that the amount of salary paid to one judge
should, more or less, regulate the amount of salary paid
to every other judge, and the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman might not, therefore, be able to decide upon that
point as impartially as he appeared to imagine. It cer-
tainly appeared to him (Mr. Spooner);that it 8,0001. had
been found a sufficiently large salary for a Chief Jus-
tice seventeen years ago, it was an excessive salary at
present.
Sir G. GREY said that some Hon. Members seem to
forget that that was a Bill, not for inereasing, but for
reducing the salaries of the chief justices. It would at
one reduce the salary of the Chief Justice of the Court
of Queen's Bench from 10,000/. to 8,0001.; and it would
prospectively reduce the salary of the Chief Justice of
the Court of Common Pleas from 8,000/. to 7,0001.; so
that the result of rejecting the measure would be that a
reduction in their salaries could not take place.—(A
laugh.) He thought that the Committee would be the
fittest place for deciding what the precise amount of
either should be.
Colonel SIBTHORP trusted the second reading
.of
theta
o
Billen be
postponed
nsidered all official persons too highly
Statement.
tru Held c
paid.
The Bill was then read
a second
PROCESS AND PRACTICE
until
time.
after
the financial
tem
(IRELAND) BILL.
The several clauses of this Bill having been agreed to
in Committee,
Mr. SADLEIR rose and moved the addition of several
clauses, the object of which, he said, was t 3 prevent the
frauds which the existing system of simple attachment
gave rise to in Ireland.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the clauses pro-
posed by the Hon. Member were similar to those which ,
had been submitted to her Majesty's Government by the
Chamber of Commerce in Dublin; but, after full consi-
deration, he had arrived at the conclusion that they could
,
not be introduced into the present Bill.
After a short conversation,
in which the Attorney-
General, Mr. Sadleir Mr. G. A • Hamilton, Mr. Rey-
nolds, Mr. Groan and others, took part, the clauses
were understood to have been withdrawn.
The House then resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again on Friday, the 22d inst.
The Committee on the Marriage Bill was postponed
until Thursday next.
The other orders of the day
and the House adjourned at a were then disposed of,
Quarter to One o'clock.
'en

Silt JOHN FRANKLIN.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
SlR7—As the utmost anxiety pervades all
classes respecting the safety of Sir John
Franklin and his brave companions, I am
induced to beg the favour of. inserting in your
w valuable
o u
would
undoubtedly journal
be the following
improvement on the
llowing suggestion, which
ex-
perimental balloons recently invented for the purpose
of distributing printed slips of paper at stated inter-
vals. There is every probability that paper would
soon be destroyed by the atmosphere of the Arctic
chines ; therefore, in lieu of paper, slips of thin calico
or muslin, different colours, or thin printed slips of
silk, various colours. There would also be an ad•
vantage in adopting this latter,.as. the natives would
preserve them either from curiosity or a desire to
adorn their persons.
Your compliance would confer a favour on your
very obliged, humble servan,
GUINNESS.
Grenville-plat?, Brighton,
March 13, 1850.

PRIZES.--A lady in Kent has offered prizes of 51.
every year as a christening present to such of two
mothers of the peasantry class, whose first child shall
be born at the regular time after a marriage contracted
on the following conditions:—" Ist, That the young
woman shall have been engaged twelve months to a
young man of good character. 2d, That the engage
ment shall have been declared to the clergyman of the
parish twelve months before the marriage. 3d, That the
clergyman shall have approved the general conduct of
tie parties during that period."